Thanks for this post.
I was--at 16--raped by a friend/boyfriend. I said no. Took about 5 years before a friend, a rape counselor, heard my story & said directly: that's rape. I had told others. No one named it. Keep naming it.

i know you wrote that "rape can be confusing" but in this case: "I started gagging and choking, and I couldn’t really breathe," there's absolutely NOTHING confusing or gray about the scenerio. frankly, if they wanted to perpetuate this crazy notion of "gray rape" they shouldn't have used THIS as an example!

She said no, and he refused to stop. That's not confusing! The only confusing thing is our screwed up rape culture, the culture that tells us that if you were on his mattress you wanted it.

I was raped at a party in college-- and I didn't think it was rape until I heard a rape survivor story that could have been my own.

Thanks for posting on this.

I used the word confusing because that's the word that the young woman used. And let's face it, in rape culture women are taught to blame themselves so no matter how clear cut the assault, women may be confused.

"There is nothing fucking gray about "choke on it." "

Anyone want to take bets on the type of porn he watches?

Jessica: "And let's face it, in rape culture women are taught to blame themselves so no matter how clear cut the assault, women may be confused."

I totally agree. While it might not be confusing to others, the person who was raped might indeed be confused.

This new gray rape makes me sick. Rape makes me sick. Call it what it is: Unacceptable.

Boondoggle: "Anyone want to take bets on the type of porn he watches?"

Ugh. seriously. I don't even want to think about that.

On a side note, I fucking hate cosmo.

Yet another reason why "Yes Means Yes!" will be such an important book. Still working very slowly on my submission, but it'll happen!

Thank you for posting this, Jessica. It really upsets me to see major media organs propogandizing women not to define rape as rape.

One thing I want to point out, where I think the antiporn activists have it exactly right:

[TRIGGER WARNING]

there is a subgenre of porn that has centered and normalized the face-fucking, gagging, forceful blowjob. I'm not going to drive traffic to it; you can find it yourself if you feel so compelled. But there's plenty of it.

I'm certainly not against gagging blowjobs in a BDSM context. But context is everything

There is stuff out there that, as far as I can tell, does not contextualize this stuff as BDSM at all, but presents it as normal. When we as a society tell our young men that a blowjob is grabbing a woman's hair and forcing his cock down her throat until she gags and them coming on her face, we're training them to abuse. When we present that as something they should expect and do without discussion, we're training them to rape.

I'm talking to my fellow BDSMers here, and if it makes me a moral scold, then toss me in the Jensen bin and ship me to Austin: don't patronize this and don't condone it. What we do should be presented as what we do; consensual, first last and always.

It's bad enough that porn normalizes all kinds of harmful body standards. That has far-reaching effects, but those effects are diffuse compared to this kind of horrifyingly direct scenario. I may not be able to prove causation in a way that would survive peer review; maybe that can't be done. But I also don't buy that it isn't a causal factor to normalize force, resistance and violation.

This rapist probably tells himself, and may believe, "hey, what's the big deal? Forced blowjobs are totally normal now." But they are not. They're totally normal in porn, and among BDSMers using it as a scene element. But if it's not something the suckee want to and agrees to do, then it's rape.

I too fail to see what is so "gray" about that encounter. Also, I'm confused - if you believe you were "gray raped" are you not supposed to press charges?

"[The young woman] calls what happened to her something akin to “gray rape,� a term she learned from an article in Cosmopolitan written by Washington Post journalist Laura Sessions Stepp." I find it really overwhelmingly disheartening that the term is spreading like this.

I fucking hate Cosmo too, but I have to admit that if I read this article several years ago, when I was with my last boyfriend, it would have given me pause.

My bf liked forced bj porn and I'd sometimes watch with him. When he'd force me later, it wasn't something I enjoyed, but I didn't tell him not to, because it seemed so normal. It was in porn! It clearly got him off! It was just one of those girlfriend-y things you do. If someone had told me that porn isn't the best indicator of what "normal" sexual behavior is, or that (gasp) it's Ok to say no to things you don't like to do (things I didn't learn for a long time), it would have been a help. So Cosmo sucks, but this crappy article may have some benefit.

Snappy, the entire culture owes you a big apology. I'll start: I'm sorry.

Snappy: I'm so sorry, nobody should have to deal with things like that. Maybe more awareness about these issues would be good. More articles in more magazines, defining it as rape. Things like this should NOT happen,to ANYONE. Hugs to you!

There must be a large contingent of women who, like previous posters, have been fooled by porn into thinking this is normal and expected. Because if a boyfriend tried to force his girlfriend to give him oral, and shoved it in and made her gag and said "choke on it", I think the only reason she wouldn't bite down hard and twist is that she thinks he's entitled to do this and it would be wrong to assault his penis in order to get free.

I mean the moment a guy told *me* "choke on it" I would bite the fucking thing off. Unless he had a gun or knife. But if he's just some guy I'm sleeping with? He's gonna learn what happens when you gag a woman and choke her WITH THE MOST SENSITIVE PART OF HIS BODY. I mean seriously, attacking a woman in a body part that has teeth with a penis is like attacking someone's fist with your eyeball. *If* she realizes that it's okay to retaliate and fight back.

I've really never comprehended how it is that so many rapists without weapons can force women to give oral until I read this thread and saw that women have been tricked by porn into thinking this is a "girlfriendy" thing to do. I can totally understand how, if you think a man is entitled to choke you with his dick, you wouldn't think you were entitled to retaliate by biting. I never understood why there weren't more rapists with partially severed penises where someone bit down before.

Sometimes rape is confusing for the victims because of the trauma, because of the betrayal, because so often it involves someone they trusted.

But sometimes rape is confusing because of articles like this one. Words can't even express how angry I am at this effort to normalize rape (maybe it's more accurate to say to reinforce the normalization of rape that's already part of our culture). The only logical conclusion from this theory is that rape is simply a part of the female experience. That is NOT ACCEPTABLE.

This entire "gray rape" shit actively hurts rape victims by making it that much harder to acknowledge and deal with rape.

Taking personal confusion and using it to say that those rapes weren't as bad, weren't as real, weren't as damaging, is just another tactic of the patriarchy.

Of COURSE women aren't going to be able to call it rape when you tell them it isn't!! The young woman in the article got the idea from Cosmo. Maybe if they had done more to educate about rape, maybe it could have helped her with her confusion instead of adding to it.

From the article: “Once things got pretty violent, I didn’t know how to get out of it. . . . I’m a pretty strong person, but I didn’t know what to do.�

That just breaks my heart.

To all of you at Feministing, let me say it again loud and clear.

THIS IS PORN APPLIED TO THE REAL WORLD. PORN IS DIRECTLY (though not exclusively) RESPONSIBLE FOR THIS

Yes, Alara, because if a man has his hand in your hair and is shoving his dick violently (or even just aggressively) down your throat, the thing to do is cause him pain and piss him off in what may be the most major way possible. At least, it's a great thing to do if you have a weapon, if you know you can escape immediately, or if his arms and legs are going to suddenly disappear and he won't be able to hurt you.

Sometimes girls and women know that these things are wrong, and they happen anyway. Not all victims are unaware. Some are all too aware of the danger to themselves.

Ugh, I'm so fucking annoyed. I fucking hate Cosmo. And I second j. helene, I can't believe this term is spreading like this. Seriously, a woman's magazine is helping to normalize rape?? I feel like punching something.

And did anyone catch this in the article?

?“This is a bigger issue,� he says. “And what my friend said is he thought, too, that with some groups of people, I was sort of becoming a fall guy for a lot of, you know, female anger, which is understandable.... Not that I’d be a fall guy, but that they’d have [anger]. I think about it a lot in terms of just what it would be like to be a woman that got hit on all the time....�

Right, because being the victim of abuse is the same thing as being a rapist. I don't even understand what he's saying here.

“I don’t think he’s a predator,� says Matt Poole, a senior who is also friends with Shaw-Fox. “I don’t think he actively seeks out victims. I think he has a problem, and he can be helped.�

No, he is. That's what predators do. They prey on people. Which is what he does. He sexually assaulted half a dozen women. And no shit, he has a problem. What an astute observation. Just another example of the normalization of rape. Isn't this what we call rape a rape apologist? He admits the guy has assaulted women, and yet it's not his fault?

I think that sometimes the victim is too shocked to do anything. She said that she's a strong person, and when you feel strong and capable and it's taken away from you so quickly, it's hard to know what to do. It's such an unfamiliar situation. I blamed myself... I'm glad she was strong enough to do something about it.

Y'know, I'm strong, feminist, and all that good stuff.

I can easily see how this could have happened.

My first sexual encounter in college eventually involved a guy who put me into a similar (physical) position and wheedled and begged for oral sex, eventually, "just kiss it, then, please?" Ugh.

I was not fully sober, and up until then had been having a lot of fun. I just stopped cold and said, "I'm uncomfortable right now b/c I feel like you're trying to force me." Ice water on the situation. Pure luck, too, that I pulled out the right words to slow him down without making him angry, etc. I can see how in a different situation, different people, different experiences, the whole thing could have turned out differently.

When I eventually left his place (never to return) I realized how close that really was, and the whole thing gave me chills.

ugh, that gave me chills, when i was 14 something smiler happened to me, i was at a party and more than slightly inebriated ( a stupid move, i know) and an older guy took me to a back room and forced me to give him head. Anyway when i tried telling my friend at the party that it happened she said i had to be lying because there was no way for somebody to force me to do that. I never reported it and to this day the only people who know that it happened are my best friend ( not the one at the party) and my current boyfriend... I never really identified it as rape, more almost rape just because for a long time i thought it was my own fault because i shouldn't have been drinking, that would probably be why i never told anyone who could have helped me.

I realize this isn't a popular opinion, but my experience just makes me wonder why we get hung up on terms like "gray rape" (and trust me, I'm a woman who likes to get hung up on terms). My ex-bf wasn't a "predator"--he was a 22-year-old guy who grew up in a culture that told him it was okay to act this way and I didn't correct him. I wasn't a "rape victim"--I was a girl who had received a lifetime of mixed messages: say no to sex! good girlfriends are game for new things! bodily integrity! be fun and sexy! I was just doing what I thought I was supposed to do.

I hate to say that this wasn't rape, because that makes me sound like some kind of apologist. But speaking as someone who was also stranger-raped, it just doesn't feel the same. In the first instance, I gave consent. There was no malice. My ex did what he thought was okay to do. I believe he's a good person who didn't know better and would have stopped if I'd asked--but I didn't. We're still civil today, and when we have talked about the past, he seemed genuinely surprised that forced sex wasn't cool with me. There's a big difference between a regular bf who thinks his behavior is okay with you and a stranger or acquaintance who forces it and expects it to be fine without any discussion.

The bottom line is that I'm strong, feminist, and anti-rape, but the insistence on calling something rape when it doesn't feel like rape seems counterproductive. Why can't we just run articles like this one without using the terms "rape" or "gray rape" and let women see themselves in the stories without running the risk of negative knee-jerk reactions to those terms?

There's a big difference between a regular bf who thinks his behavior is okay with you...

Why would the guy from Lewis & Clark (who was neither the woman's regular bf or a stranger) have thought she'd wanted to gag and choke? "Choke on it" is not a sweet nothing; it's a violent demand.
They were not in a consentual BDSM relationship so there is no basis for claiming he may have just thought it was OK with her.

Every woman who claims her rape (there's a definition at the bottom of the article!) was partially her fault (and therefore, only "grey") perpetuates the normalization of rape.

Disgusting. Dunno what's worse, the regressive bullshit of "gray rape" or that it was published in a "women's" magazine.

Alara: I'm a 6'6" guy, and I loathe physical confrontation. It doesn't happen that often because of my size, but when it does the blood rushes to my head and I feel myself mentally and emotionally receding from the situation. I seize up and, though normally eloquent, start to stammer. Just saying, it's not always easy (setting aside whether it's right) to physically defend yourself. Even if you seem to be in a good position to do so.

Re confusion: Trauma is confusing. This is the case even when one experiences something universally agreed to be traumatic, like a gunshot wound. People aren't sure what happened; they doubt, they blame themselves ("I shouldn't have been wandering aroudn that corner at night). Think how much worse it must be to experience something that NOT everyone agrees is trauma, that a magazine that's supposed to be for you says is something else?

This is not the woman's problem, it's her rapist's. It's Cosmo's.

And did anyone catch this quote from scumbag:

"I’ve maybe deserved some females’ being frustrated with me because I can see where there’s been times where I was maybe too aggressive in my flirtation."

Hmmm... last time I check forcing "a female" to give you head was a little more than flirtation...

Snappy:

I could be wrong, but I think the distinction between "rape" and "gray rape" isn't "non-consensjual" vs. "consensual but uncomfortable." What you're describing doesn't sound like rape to me, it sounds like the result of our seriously fucked-up and buttoned-down sexual culture.

"Gray rape" is meant to refer to insances where the woman withdraws her consent at some point in the course of an otherwise consensual sexual encounter between two people who know each other. This is supposed to be somehow different from rape, more of a gray area.

I think what people, me among them, are reacting to is the attempt to dilute the definition of "rape" by parsing different forms on non-consensual sex.

I agree that they should not be calling this “gray rape� because I think terms like that will only make the victim even more confused. But I can definitely relate to Snappy and others by saying that the article did shed some light on a problem that I have personally kind of dealt with and really didn’t think it had happened to anyone else.

Years ago I was throwing a party at my house while my parents were out of town. I invited over this guy that I was kind of seeing and at one point we snuck away up to my bedroom. We started to fool around and I’m not going to lie but my mouth definitely lingered down there for a bit. But after a minute or two I somewhat gained my senses and realized that I was leaving a bunch of drunk teenagers to party in my parents house and had no idea what they were doing down there. So I told him we should go back to the party and I pulled away. All of a sudden he grabbed me by the shoulders and threw me on my bed. He forcefully held my head down while forcing me to give him a blow job. It all happened in a matter of seconds and when it was all done I was so confused. I had been physically resisting and trying to push him off of me, but he was much stronger and I had never technically said the word “no.� When he was done he lay there smiling as if nothing bad had happened. I didn’t know what to do so I just got up and went back down to the party pretending nothing was wrong.

I was confused about the situation for a while because this was a guy that I had already slept with and I hadn’t actually said no. Did I do something wrong? And I know so many girls would always say if a guy ever forced me I’d just bite down and that’s something I even used to say myself, but while it was actually going on I just couldn’t think straight.

When I finally opened up to a few friends (years later) and told them what had happened some of them said I was not raped while others were horrified and agreed with my assessment of rape. It’s still very hard for me to talk about but about a year ago I semi-confronted the guy about it and he just pretended like he didn’t remember anything. But it definitely helped me move on from that horrible experience.

So I agree that calling it “gray rape� is bad. But it’s at least helps me to know that others have gone through the same thing as me and that’s the positive I took away from this article: I’m not alone.

Chalk up another one for Cosmo, eh? Disgusting.

I had a lot of experiences like Snappy in high school, and while I never withdrew consent and do not consider my experiences rape, the choking bjs were so highly unpleasant that every oral experience since has been preceded by "Gladly -- but if you touch my head, it's over." It might dampen the "romance", but just like a condom, that's the price you pay for protecting yourself. And the line has worked like magic.

There's a big difference between a regular bf who thinks his behavior is okay with you and a stranger or acquaintance who forces it and expects it to be fine without any discussion.

I don't think that there is at all. A boyfriend who thinks that they can force you without any discussion is the same as a stranger who does so. Whether or not you want to forgive your rapist is your own decision and I wouldn't try to take that from you. But to say that rape is not so bad when it's a boyfriend but really bad when it's a non-boyfriend is just dangerous, in my opinion.

This is probably my damage, Kimmy, but if I were being forced to give oral sex until I choked, it would not *matter* that the guy still had hands and feet. Because when I've been physically attacked (never raped or sexually assaulted, just attacked) by men in the past, it doesn't matter that I'm five foot 0 and usually weigh much less than them -- my vision starts to tunnel and I become consumed by rage and panic and I do *anything*, anything at all, to hurt them and get free. This has happened to me many times, against opponents much bigger, stronger and better at fighting than I am, including circumstances where the man in question was play-attacking like my husband trying to tickle me or my dad trying to I forget what, prove some kind of point maybe. And I attacked them both like they were major league threats, and hurt them because they didn't expect me to get violent when they were playing.

So you're probably right, I need to understand that my tendency to go to violence first is just *my* tendency, and other people may have totally different reactions. But when I read the description of the attack posted in the article and then Snappy's recounting of her experience, I couldn't stop imagining what it would be like to be attacked like that, and I kept reflexively biting down and twisting my hand because the visceral image, the rage I felt at such men, was so overwhelming... even though such an attack has never happened to me.

I'm sorry. I don't mean to denigrate women (or men) who don't have the same reaction to violence that I do. There are certainly circumstances where violently attacking the person attacking you is actually the worst thing you could do... and I'm pretty sure I'd do it anyway because when I'm frightened and panicked by physical violence that's what I *do*. It's not a rational choice.

But I do wonder... I cannot be the only woman in the world whose reflexive response to being forcibly choked by a penis would be to bite it. Given that, and given the male fear of the vagina dentata, I gotta wonder... why *do* rapists think it's safe to do that if they don't have a gun to your head? Do they seriously think that their physical strength is so overpowering and cowing that they cannot possibly get hurt by a woman? I realize that many women won't, in fact, respond by trying to bite it off... but I would, and I can't be the only one, so wouldn't you think they'd be worried about that possibility before they tried it?

With all due respect, Snappy, all those factors you listed are exactly the kinds of things that lead to rape. I wouldn't try to label your experiences, but to use your experience to say nothing similar is rape is inappropriate.

Why can't we just run articles like this one without using the terms "rape" or "gray rape" and let women see themselves in the stories without running the risk of negative knee-jerk reactions to those terms?

Because the girl in the article was raped. She felt assaulted. It was against her will. And one of the reasons she doesn't feel comfortable calling it rape is because she has been told it isn't. Standing up and saying this is rape and it's unacceptable is an important part of feminism.

And.. it isn't rape if a man feels entitled to his partner's submission to whatever he wants to do? That really defeats the point of demanding respect for women's active consent.

There's a big difference between a regular bf who thinks his behavior is okay with you and a stranger or acquaintance who forces it and expects it to be fine without any discussion.

I want to clarify that I'm not disagreeing with your experience or your feelings about them, because I'm not arguing that you shouldn't feel that way about your experiences. But I do disagree with the way you extrapolate from them to a bigger picture.

If the behavior that the boyfriend thinks is okay is forced sex that is uncomfortable and/or painful, (outside a clearly consentual BDSM situation) how is that okay?

Every woman has the right to process their own experiences. But just as you don't feel it was rape, another woman might. And if we call all forced/coerced sex rape maybe more women will be able to say no to sex they don't want and not feel like they're being a bad girlfriend.

llevinso, your story illustrates why "It wasn't rape because she didn't say no" is soooo problematic and leads so many women to feel confused and blame herself after being attacked.

I mean, these things happen and clearly we are blurry and confused and shocked in the moment so how are we supposed to have the clarity to yell out, "No!" when we've already voiced our disinterest but have just been physically forced out of nowhere.

"I'm going back to the party" is the same thing as saying "no!" But currently the standard is that if we have not said the SPECIFIC word "no" then we haven't been raped!

Yeah. I had a similar experience with a boyfriend and the forced and/or gagging oral sex in high school. I didn't realize it was assault until recently. That's several years. I didn't equate it with porn. I think I was just too naive and trusting of the guy. I think that sites like feministing and comment threads like these do a great deal to inform people. And to let us know that we aren't alone in our experiences.

"I cannot be the only woman in the world whose reflexive response to being forcibly choked by a penis would be to bite it. "

No, you're not. I've used teeth and I'll do so again if the need arises.

I don't think they consider the teeth beforehand because they know they can scare her with violence or the threat of it. And for the most part, it seems like they're right.

What is so hard for these people how invented the phrase "gray rape" to understand? Consent really does mean consent, period. This is a legal concept that has been honed through the cauldron of the common law for centuries, yet somebody selling a woman's magazine comes along with this fanciful phrase -- as if she can reinvent a long-settled concept.

To assess whether there was consent, the question is whether from the reasonable male's perspective (assuming the male is the one accused of rape, which is almost always the case), the female manifested her assent to the particular sexual act undertaken. Her secret, subjective intent, wishes or desires are of no import, and her consent may be verbal or it may be implied-in-fact by her conduct based on all the surrounding circumstances. At a criminal trial for rape, once the affirmative defense of consent is raised at trial, as with all crimes, the state must prove the absence of consent beyond a reasonable doubt. If the male does not reasonably believe there was consent, it is rape. It is an objective standard, not a subjective one. If the male reasonably believes there was consent, then it was not rape.

People in the business of selling magazines would do well to NOT make this concept, for which there is no serious debate, so difficult or pretend it is controversial. It is not. Rather, the concept of consent -- not someone's idea of what consent should be -- ought to be taught to young men and young women, because there is obviously confusion.

I think I can understand the desire to have something other than "rape" to call our experiences, especially in the case of acquaintance or rape by a friend, which it sounds like this case was. No one wants to necessarily think their friend is a rapist. I also think that rape is such a loaded word that people want to be careful where they level it. Also, because sex is such an emotionally laden act, when consensual or not, that it really confuses people.

So even if what happened was wrong and a form of rape, I can understand that girl being confused and wanting to find something else to describe it. I often find that while language is one of the best forms of communication, it is completely inadequate.

Ditto to SarahMC. If it's clear you didn't want it, saying "no" is redundant and probably wouldn't do any good. I think we like to believe we had more control over this kind of situation. Maybe sometimes blaming ourselves instead of the rapist is a way of coping with that loss of control, by maintaining some illusion of it.

"the male reasonably believes there was consent, then it was not rape."

Funny thing is, there's theres human beings called women that know there are men out there who don't even take into consideration her consent, like the rapist in this example.

What's the deal with men liking gagging BJs anyway? Do they want teeth and vomit and tears on their penises? And why are BJs popularly considered a male power thing, with the stereotype being a kneeling woman and a pounding man? It can be a very empowering experience for a woman to give oral sex, especially when the receiver is lying down and the environment is relaxed. And consensual, of course.

Maybe I'm alone in thinking this, but I consider oral sex to be more intimate than vaginal-penile intercourse. Bumping uglies can be done with fairly little in the way of involvement and with a great deal of mental detachment... not so when giving oral sex. How can people even consider forced oral not rape?

Michelle: ""I'm uncomfortable right now b/c I feel like you're trying to force me." Ice water on the situation."

Exactly. That was about what I was taught to say if I felt uncomfortable with something, because as soon as you suggest to a guy that the situation is rape, if he's normally a decent guy who's a bit confused in his sexuality and what is right and wrong, he will understand that he is heading into rape territory. Most guys who think this is okay don't think rape is okay, they just don't realize what rape is or that they are a rapist. It's not always going to solve all problems, but it can help sometimes.

As for gray rape-- I think there is a gray rape category, where, while the rapist should still be punished, his punishment should be less than it might be otherwise. It's when there was a misunderstanding, like a person withdraws consent mid-act and the other person doesn't hear it, or doesn't understand (and there is no physical pushing or such that would indicate that the person who withdrew consent did so), or when both partners are drunk and they wake up in the morning together because their judgment was impaired (one person drunk always = rape), or when a 15 year old lies and says she's 18. BUT if there was violence, it's NEVER gray. This is firmly in the rape category. No question. I hope someone explains that to this woman, and she listens.

What geek said.

Also, what Betty Boondoggle said. Rapists don't confine themselves to physical force (gun, knife, fists, rope, etc,). They much more commonly use mental and emotional force, like bullying, or the threat of voilence, or the threat of not being loved, or of being ostracized.

Hard to remember to bite when your head and heart are in the grinder.

""I'm uncomfortable right now b/c I feel like you're trying to force me."

I really like that. I think every girl should be taught that line and told that it's good and appropriate. It's just good communication, and teaches them to respect their own feelings and to expect that others do the same.

Good call, Geek. Let's teach all the boys about not forcing someone once someone changes her mind, too.

I hope that the woman in the article at least threw up on his bed afterward. I hope it's not wrong for me to hope that. It very likely would have been my unstoppable reaction (and once in fact was).

Basiorana-

Really? So it's not quite rape if someone says "no" but didn't say it loud enough? It's not quite rape if she didn't push or otherwise physically resist? Those standards are regressive and dangerous.

One of the big cultural changes that needs to happen is to change the way the burden of consent is borne. Right now, it is up to the woman to object. She needs to communicate it to him, to be sure he understands clearly, to be sure she communicated effectively. In what other situation do we impose such a shoddy standard of care relative to the potential damage? BOTH partrners need to take the time and effort to MAKE SURE that everyone is on board EVERY STEP OF THE WAY.

To continue the above a little, since I realize the standard of care thing might be a little opaque to non-lawyers:

When you're driving a car, you have to look out for pedestrians. Everywhere, not just in the crosswalks. You have to avoid hitting them no matter how stupid they're being, how flagrant their jaywalking, or how wasted they might be. Why? Cause if you hit a pedestrian you're fucked. Because every driver knows that, we are extra special careful to keep an eye out for pedestrians, for kids chasing balls, for blind little old ladies who might not see us coming.

We strive mightily to avoid hitting those people because we know that a) if we do hit them it's gonna mess them up something awful, and we don't want to do that; and, b) we're gonna get screwed five ways from Sunday by the courts and our insurance companies.

That's called a standard of care. It exists legally; hit a pedestrian and you're in for it even if they were jaywalking. And it exists socially; if you were drivnig like a jackass and hit someone, your friends and family are likely to tell you how much of a jackass you were.

Why don't the law and the society impose the same standard of care for our sexual partners? The potential damage is just as severe.

In response to everyone that's saying I would just bite down...

As I said in my post, that's what I had always said too, and I'm sure that that would be some people's gut reaction. But I was in such shock and it was all happening so fast...I never even thought to bite down.

It just upsets me when people are like, "Why didn't you just bite down?" And it's like "Gee, really? Why didn't I think of that? Oh maybe cause I was in complete shock and scared and wasn't thinking clearly!" ...Sorry if that sounded angry but this topic is obviously very upsetting for me...

And I agree that saying "I feel like you're trying to force me" might work in some cases. But I think with a lot of guys they'd just kind of laugh that off. Or in my case you don't even get a chance to say anything because all of a sudden it's happening.

jfaustus: Situations like I am talking about are rare. And we as a society and culture need to make them LESS rare-- by encouraging women to speak up, and more importantly, encouraging men to actually listen to their partner and pay attention to their needs.

That said, I think it is rape, but a lesser crime, if it can be proven beyond reasonable doubt that the rapist had no idea that consent was withdrawn, or that it was unable to be given in the first place. Like a teenager who lies about their age. Or a woman who withdrew consent, but did so softly or muffled, and didn't pursue it when the guy didn't hear or understand her. We need to teach guys to pay more attention, but until society changes, I can't see putting a guy who didn't hear his partner say "stop" in the same category as this asshole, who had to know this woman wanted him to stop, she made it quite obvious, and he continued anyway.

Also, in my area, the punishment for hitting a pedestrian who darted out into the street at the last minute when it was impossible to see them tends to be less than hitting a pedestrian who was just jaywalking. In many cases it's considered an accident, and the driver is not prosecuted because he or she could not have predicted there was going to be a person there, or couldn't have stopped once the person appeared.

llevinso: "And I agree that saying "I feel like you're trying to force me" might work in some cases. But I think with a lot of guys they'd just kind of laugh that off. Or in my case you don't even get a chance to say anything because all of a sudden it's happening."

If I wasn't clear, that was sort of exactly my point. It was sheer luck that I came up with the right words, that particular guy listened to them, gave me the opportunity to actually *speak* them, etc. I don't think (or claim) that it would work in every situation-- I just think that under different circumstances, that situation could have turned into something similar. I find it terrifying to think of what a close case that situation was, and how much of what stopped it from becoming violent was just lucky coincidence of people, timing, etc. Not everyone is so lucky.

My brother saw me reading this and was like, "you looked pissed off."

I responded "apparently cosmo thinks there's such a thing as grey-rape, where you consent to one thing, and another is forced on you."

He said, "What the fuck?! That's like saying, "ok, nurse, you can draw my blood," and then getting murdered!"

Basiorana-

I can't agree. In the first place, the situation you describe in your earlier post:

a person withdraws consent mid-act and the other person doesn't hear it, or doesn't understand (and there is no physical pushing or such that would indicate that the person who withdrew consent did so)

is way more common than rape by a stranger using physical force to restrain an obviiously unwilling woman.

Beyond that, I'm not 100% clear on your point. Do you mean that we shouldn't prosecute for conduct that doesn't meet the current legal definition of rape? To that narrow contention I would have to agree on the grounds that you can't prosecute someone for something that wasn't illegal when they did it.

If you mean that we shouldn't presently hold them morally and socially responsible because although you agree things shoudl change, they haven't yet so we have to allow some wiggle room. Can't agree with that.

In the first place, I'm a straight guy and have never in my life had a sexual encounter where I didn't go out of my way to make sure that both of us were into what was happening. I did that even before I understood myself as a feminist, even before I was exposed to different theories of rape and consent. So we're not talking about some martian moral code that no one's ever heard of.

Furthermore, how do you understand social change to happen? You seem to be suggesting that we can't hold people responsible until things change such that there is a new state of affairs where they can be held respobsible. So how do we get there? When do we start? I think that a guy who pays insufficient attention to his partner and allows the sexual encounter to cross the line into something she doesn't want is a rapist. And I, for one, am willing to call him such today. The rest of the world will catch up eventually, I hope.

Re: Tim

Here's the thing: for certain stupid men, gag bjs are the norm. Even based on reading this thread, it sounds like various women have belabored under the misconception that they are the norm as well. Beyond a certain point- it becomes the norm.

Now, in my view, any act which basically prevents the other person from withdrawing consent should require gaining consent ahead of time. And regardless of what is 'typical' this is what should always be regarded as reasonable.

But I can see a difference between a rape act that specifically ignores a woman clearly indicating a lack of consent and a sex act that the participants regard as being typical that removes the woman's opportunity to demonstrate a lack of consent. Even pushing against his torso is probably typical during any choking bj unless the woman is really into some kind of BDSM.

It is still totally unreasonable and very wrong, but I think from our screwed up sexual norms and practices emerge a new type of rape: if you receive choking bj's frequently from your gf and she never indicates that she has a problem with it, it seems like that wouldn't be rape. But if you do the same thing with a new partner, it should be presumed to be rape b/c she's never given the opportunity to consent. So the act requires a (perhaps only slightly) more subtle understanding of context to differentiate between rape and not rape than your typical forced rape - even typical forced date rape.

llevinso: I have to totally agree with you on the not biting down thing. I've definitely had people ask me that before, as if they were questioning that I didn't want it to happen. Oh, she didn't bite down, she must have secretly wanted to do it. side note: A gun or a knife isn't your only weapon. The entire time I was being forced to do oral, the guy has his hands wrapped tightly around my throat...so, biting didn't seem like a good idea.

Hey all, I'm running around like crazy today so I haven't been able to comment back much, but I just wanted to say thanks to those who are sharing their stories.

Thank you FemiDancer.

And Michelle, I do understand that you weren't saying that would work for everyone. I think it would definitely work with some guys as like an "Oh shit, I didn't realize I was being that kind of a guy."

Will anyone here be writing letters to the editor? I think it would be good to point out to them that they are a "women's" magazine and should not be helping to normalize and make excuses for rape.

jfaustus: "The situation you describe...is way more common than rape by a stranger using physical force to restrain an obviously unwilling woman."

Yes, but it's more common that a person one knows or was in an intimate relationship with will force sex on an obviously unwilling woman, or a person one knows or was in an intimate relationship will be having sex and then continue once the other person obviously withdraws consent than either stranger rape OR the situation I described. Stranger rape IS rare compared to acquaintance rape but it has nothing to do with anything.

They should be held responsible. They should be prosecuted. I just don't think we should hold them to the same level as acquaintance rapists who are fully aware of what they are doing. Intent is still a factor in the legal system, and it should be.

Also, if social change could come from making something illegal, drugs would be gone by now. If we want to change society, we need to change the way we educate young people. Period. I advocate changing the way kids can access porn-- make it so they can get all the porn they want as long as it only shows safe, consensual, loving sex-- and teaching them how to recognize bad relationships and situations in schools.

One of the most infuriating things in the world is when people (almost always men) say that there is no such thing as a forced blowjob because "you can just bite down." Oh right, I must have wanted that scumbag to shove my head down on him, it's not like I was terrified of him hurting me worse if I bit him. No, I was asking for it.

Argh! Sorry, this isn't the kind of thing I can take sitting down.

"I'm uncomfortable right now b/c I feel like you're trying to force me."

I really like that. I think every girl should be taught that line and told that it's good and appropriate. It's just good communication, and teaches them to respect their own feelings and to expect that others do the same.

-----

I wish, wish, wish someone had told me this before I started dating. As it was, I was young, stupid, and way too trusting. No one ever explained to me that I ought to never be forced into a sexual encounter, that I shouldn't just give in when he pressured me because I didn't want to fight, or that a decent boyfriend wouldn't painfully grab my breasts or roughly finger me and make me bleed, despite my protests.

I was so young, I didn't know what a healthy relationship was like. I thought what he did to me was normal. It was only when a speaker for a local domestic violence group came to speak in our Allied Health Science class that I realized the thing she was describing had happened to me. She was describing molestation. She was describing rape.

The label "grey rape" seems so derogatory to me. It's saying that just because you are unaware that the violence done to you was rape, somehow means that it isn't a real rape.

Starknut: Yeah, that's exactly my point. I didn't have that kind of experience, but my first time was basically giving in to the nonstop pestering of my boyfriend at the time and unfortunately I didn't have the courage or the tools to deal with it.

This is another reason why the conservative brand of abstinence only education is a huge disservice to women. Most of the advice focuses on how to fend off the evil sex-obsessed men so you can retain your self-respect (read: virginity). It's patronizing and for me it just didn't reflect my feelings. I wasn't trying to fend off the evil man. I wanted to have sex and didn't understand why I was uncomfortable about it or how to know I was ready.

(Another wonderful myth of the scolding pearl-clutchers, that even if you aren't required to wait until marriage, there will be a magical time when you just know you're ready and that's when it's okay to say yes!)

You're completely right, Jessica; that is not gray rape. Hell, even without the violence it still wouldn't have been gray rape, but when you add that in it's just like DUH! God, I feel bad for young women out there reading Cosmopolitan right now like it's their personal Bible.

What's especially ironic about the whole situation to me is that in certain contexts, I personally would like having my hair pulled to the point of pain - I'm into being dominated. The problem is that our society eroticizes violence against women to the point that some men blur the line between a controlled BSDM situation where you STOP when the other person says to and an actual violent encounter. If a guy did that to me randomly in the middle of a sexual situation, I would fucking FREAK and be terrified even though in another scenario it might be exciting.

Does it disgust anyone else how much men think they are ENTITLED to get pleasure from women's bodies however they so choose? I can't think of a single woman I know who would even begin to presume that she could do something like to a man for her own pleasure. But according to this one poll 1 out of 12 guys on my college campus has done something sexual to a girl without permission - it's just absolutely disgusting. I'll stop rambling now, but damn I'm mad.

Basiorana:

You mistake me, and perhaps I you. I wasn't making a legal argument. Law and social morality are not, as you point out, coextensive. I was saying that regardless of what the law says, men who behave the way we're describing are rapists in the same way as if they had used force on someone obviously unwilling. I mean this in the same way that one might say, "High corporate muckity-mucks are scum-sucking kleptocratic theives, even if the loopholes their cronies in Congress wrote make what they did technically legal." I read you as making a non-legal argument that such men shouldn't be held quite as responsible as other rapists as a matter of social morality. That's the contention I disagree with. But maybe you were making a legal argument all along, in which case I got you wrong.

As it happens, though, we also disagree on the purely legal argument. Intent should NOT be a factor in rape (although it is, at present). I ascribe to the theory that maybe, in an ideal world, one would take intent into account somehow. But we don't live in an ideal world. We live in a world where it's ok to choke your partner on your dick while she's gagging and trembling, eyes wide in fear. Or was that ecstacy? A world where we want to say it's ok if, in the heat of the moment, someone overlooks those cues.

I think that state of affairs is way skewed to the detriment of women like those who have shared their stories with us today. We shouldn't look to the ideal law in this instance because the cultural definitions that determine the law's application (what is reasonable) are themselves skewed. Until those are straightened out, I would much rather have a law that restricts men by forcing them to take a second to stop thinkiing with their dicks than one that restricts women by forcing them to endure having sex they don't really want to have.

And the relationship between law and social change is a helluva lot more complex than you suggest. Since it's a social rather than scientific phenomenon, pointing out an instance that disproves a 1:1 relationship of logical necessity (the case of drugs) doesn't actually disprove the main contention (that law can be a tool of social change). Far too little space here to go into that, though.

Last bit: In talking about frequency, I was responding to your statement that the situation you're talking about is rare. It isn't. Comparing its relative frequency to other forms of rape would be difficult given the reporting problem. But it's worth noting -- anecdotally, at least -- the number of women posting similar stories on this thread.

I think part of the confusion over whether rape can be confusing, is that many posters seem to use rape as a description of a moral transgression. Rape does not refer to any morally condemnable sexual action, it refers to sex without consent. Rape is a serious crime because it harms its victims profoundly; however, you can be manipulative, controlling, and damaging of a sexual partner without ever committing rape. And I would even venture to say that some men who commit rape can overcome their issues and achieve meaningful relationships with women. The term "gray rape" seems to address the hesitation of the victim to apply a term that is also a moral indictment. The problem is not that rape can be ambiguous in terms of victims' and rapists' responses; it can be. Other posters have acknowledged that the victim's feelings about the rape are legitimate. The problem with the problem with the term is that it denies that a crime was committed; it clearly was. The logic of "it's rape therefore it's unforgivable or it's not rape therefore it's fine" should not fly anymore.

Sham Payne, I just wanted to say one thing to you: getting "slightly inebriated" at a party is NOT a "stupid move." What IS a stupid move is forcing a girl to go down on you. Period. You did nothing wrong. Most people drink at parties.

Think of it this way: if a little kid were at a party and had run around the whole time and had completely exhausted herself, and then some guy took her in a room and forced her to give him head and she was too tired and shocked to think clearly and say no, would you blame the child? No. And I'm NOT saying women are children; I apologize if I'm being an armchair psychologist, but I've read that in a situation where you've been abused it's best to think of yourself as you were when you were a child because we see children as blameless. So you are blameless, Sham; you did nothing wrong and did NOT deserve to be treated that way.

Sorry for all the long posts today. I'm back at college before anyone else and consequently have too much free time...

LizM: I, for one, wouldn't have any room to criticize you for long posts... Couldn't help myself, great and necessary discussion. Glad you're here.

There's a great book I read in a class I took in college called 'I Never Called it Rape.' I think every person - man or woman - should read it. This 'Grey Rape' bullshit is just that, bullshit. Rape is rape is rape. I don't think I have anything else to add to the conversation that hasn't already been said, but I do want to say one thing about BDSM and 'rape' scenes:

I'm a kinky girl. I'm involved in the S/M community. I like to play with consensual nonconsensuality, but I know and my partner know what is REALLY nonconsensual and what is just fun playtime. I don't like to call what we sometimes do as 'rape' play at all, because it's not rape. Forced sex (of any kind) is rape. Consensual non-consensuality play is not and I don't even like to use the word 'rape' to describe it.

"Grey rape" my ass. She was pounding on his chest to stop! She was choking!

There should not be any question as to whether or not this was rape, ERG!

I am also sort of shocked that so many people think biting down will help women get out of forced oral sex.

Think about it: You are being forced to give a BJ to a rapist. And you think biting his dick isn't going to send him into a tailspin?

I would be concerned with getting out alive, and I don't think biting his dick while you are in a vulnerable position physically is going to solve the problem.

"Bite his dick!" is just another way to do Monday morning quarterbacking after a woman's been victimized.

Maybe this is just a naive hope but if this stupid "gray rape" term is going to enter the language I hope it goes the way of date rape. It seems to me that was once an attempt to minimise rape, to say "Oh that was just a date gone a bit wrong, not really rape". And yet it became a way to say to women yes you were raped even though you went on a date with him. So maybe we can try and turn this term around with discussions like this one?

At a criminal trial for rape, once the affirmative defense of consent is raised at trial, as with all crimes, the state must prove the absence of consent beyond a reasonable doubt.

My understanding of an affirmative defense is that it means the burden of proof shifts to the defense. In the affirmative defense of insanity, it's up to the defense to prove that, yes, the defendant was insane and therefore not leagally culpable. Isn't that the point of calling it an affirmative defense? I could be mistaken about this, but I really didn't think that the burden of proof was on the prosecution to prove that the defendant was sane.

I don't know. Maybe because I've never experienced rape/assault (thankfully), but I don't even think it's confusing. If you didn't say yes, it's rape. Even if you were "asking for it" by getting drunk/wearing a miniskirt/walking alone at night.

How in the world were they "hooking up" if the guy was obviously intoxicated from the beginning? That's the thing that confuses me about the article.

I have been making a legal argument. I think "gray rape" should exist in law as akin to negligent homicide, that sort of thing.

I think that if we allow intent to be a factor--but not a get out of jail free card-- in other crimes, like murder, we should treat rape as a crime that is just as bad. And that means we have to consider intent.

That said-- I'm not talking about planning it out, that sort of thing. I think that someone who PLANS a rape should be punished more, because they are malicious and require intensive therapy. But a "heat-of-passion" rape is not an excuse, nor should it be. I agree that we shouldn't make it so.

When I talk about lack of intent, I mean that the guy honestly DID NOT REALIZE he was forcing the woman until AFTER the act ends. That's what I consider to be gray rape. When the guy thinks the woman consented wholy and was into the act, she gave him no clear, obvious sign and no resistance that would indicate it. Not that he thought resistance was normal or OK-- ignorance is not an excuse. Only if he actually got no resistance, and there were no obvious indicators that she was no longer consenting.

I have not read a single case here where the woman fits my description. All of them refer to choking or other resistance. The second a woman begins to choke, that's a sign that she no longer consents unless she agreed ahead of time to choking and has some kind of safeword. Thus far, none of the situations I have read are anything but actual, straightforward, black and white rape (though perhaps I missed one).

I have always believed that it is best to change society before you change law, and to do it through education. That's my personal philosophy and conviction and unlikely to change. Sorry.

Basiorana-

Just wanted to say that I'm enjoying this debate immensely. We disagree, but I loves me some passionate, well-reasoned disagreement! Hope I haven't conveyed the opposite impression.

I understand your point about intent, but just can't agree. I also think that there are many parallel tracks to social change. Education is a big one. Political advocacy, impact litigation, and legislative reform are others. Different ones are more or less useful in producing change on different issues.

Anyway, looks like we're agreeing to disagree.

Peace and respect.

Thomas's post was about 80 times more eloquent than I can be right now, as I am about to throw up in disgust.

I am in the process of beginning research for my undergraduate thesis project. The topic is on the vein of pop culture and mainstream social attitudes of rape and sexual violence and the way it impacts women's perceptions of themselves and their experiences- both socially and legally. I am exploring stuff like Cosmo's "gray rape" bullshit, social "rape myths", and the mainstreaming of violent sex, including "rape porn." I think a lot of porn influences violence against women and perpetuates the idea that women like rape, and I think more people have access to it than ever. But that's not necessarily the point of my thesis.

How do these things affect women? What does it make them think about themselves and their experiences? What effect does this have on the legal discourses used in courts? And on social discourses?

It's fucking tragic.

PS: Basiorana- I am too upset to address your other points [I agree some; I disagree some], but I think it's interesting to think you have to change society before law. While I am 11