Obama fires back at McCain in VFW speech: ‘I will let no one question my love of this country’
John McCain spoke yesterday to the VFW’s national convention, and delivered an ugly, insulting speech. He took credit for the passage of bills he opposed, he papered over his own humiliating record of misjudgments on national security issues, and McCain once again attacked Barack Obama’s patriotism, effectively accusing him of treason by insisting that Obama wants the U.S. to fail in Iraq because of his personal “ambition.”
Today, it was Obama’s turn. He didn’t hold back.
“[W]e do have differences in this election. But one of the things that we have to change in this country is the idea that people can’t disagree without challenging each other’s character and patriotism. I have never suggested that Senator McCain picks his positions on national security based on politics or personal ambition. I have not suggested it because I believe that he genuinely wants to serve America’s national interest. Now, it’s time for him to acknowledge that I want to do the same.
“Let me be clear: I will let no one question my love of this country. I love America, so do you, and so does John McCain. When I look out at this audience, I see people of different political views. You are Democrats and Republicans and Independents. But you all served together, and fought together, and bled together under the same proud flag. You did not serve a Red America or a Blue America — you served the United States of America.
“So let’s have a serious debate, and let’s debate our disagreements on the merits of policy — not personal attacks. And no matter how heated it gets or what kind of campaign he chooses to run, I will honor Senator McCain’s service, just like I honor the service of every veteran in this room, and every American who has worn the uniform of the United States.”
I especially like the challenge — it’s time for McCain to acknowledge Obama’s patriotism. Will McCain have the courage to do so?
But the speech went considerably further and covered a lot more ground.
The whole speech is online, and it’s worth checking out. But here are some of the highlights.
Obama went after McCain’s low-road campaign:
“Yesterday, Senator McCain came before you. He is a man who has served this nation honorably, and he correctly stated that one of the chief criteria for the American people in this election is going to be who can exercise the best judgment as Commander in Chief. But instead of just offering policy answers, he turned to a typical laundry list of political attacks. He said that I have changed my position on Iraq when I have not. He said that I am for a path of “retreat and failure.” And he declared
, “Behind all of these claims and positions by Senator Obama lies the ambition to be president” – suggesting, as he has so many times, that I put personal ambition before my country.
“That is John McCain’s prerogative. He can run that kind of campaign, and – frankly – that’s how political campaigns have been run in recent years. But I believe the American people are better than that. I believe that this defining moment demands something more of us.
“If we think that we can secure our country by just talking tough without acting tough and smart, then we will misunderstand this moment and miss its opportunities. If we think that we can use the same partisan playbook where we just challenge our opponent’s patriotism to win an election, then the American people will lose. The times are too serious for this kind of politics. The calamity left behind by the last eight years is too great.”
Obama emphasized that he was right about Iraq and McCain wasn’t:
“Six years ago
, I stood up at a time when it was politically difficult to oppose going to war in Iraq, and argued that our first priority had to be finishing the fight against Osama bin Laden and al Qaeda in Afghanistan. Senator McCain was already turning his sights to Iraq just days after 9/11, and he became a leading supporter of an invasion and occupation of a country that had absolutely nothing to do with the 9/11 attacks, and that – as despicable as Saddam Hussein was – posed no imminent threat to the American people. Two of the biggest beneficiaries of that decision were al Qaeda’s leadership, which no longer faced the pressure of America’s focused attention; and Iran, which has advanced its nuclear program, continued its support for terror, and increased its influence in Iraq and the region.
“In the run-up to the invasion of Iraq, I warned that war would fan the flames of extremism in the Middle East, create new centers of terrorism, and tie us down in a costly and open-ended occupation. Senator McCain predicted that we’d be greeted as liberators, and that the Iraqis would bear the cost of rebuilding through their bountiful oil revenues. For the good of our country, I wish he had been right, and I had been wrong. But that’s not what history shows.”
Obama reframed the debate over the efficacy of the surge policy:
“Senator McCain now argues that despite these costly strategic errors, his judgment has been vindicated due to the results of the surge. Let me once again praise General Petraeus and Ambassador Crocker – they are outstanding Americans. In Iraq, gains have been made in lowering the level of violence thanks to the outstanding efforts of our military, the increasing capability of Iraq’s Security Forces, the ceasefire of Shiite militias, and the decision taken by Sunni tribes to take the fight to al Qaeda. Those are the facts, and all Americans welcome them.
“But understand what the essential argument was about. Before the surge, I argued that the long-term solution in Iraq is political – the Iraqi government must reconcile its differences and take responsibility for its future. That holds true today. We have lost over a thousand American lives and spent hundreds of billions of dollars since the surge began, but Iraq’s leaders still haven’t made hard compromises or substantial investments in rebuilding their country. Our military is badly overstretched – a fact that has surely been noted in capitals around the world. And while we pay a heavy price in Iraq – and Americans pay record prices at the pump – Iraq’s government is sitting on a $79 billion dollar budget surplus from windfall oil profits.
“Let’s be clear: our troops have completed every mission they’ve been given. They have created the space for political reconciliation. Now it must be filled by an Iraqi government that reconciles its differences and spends its oil profits to meet the needs of its people. Iraqi inaction threatens the progress we’ve made and creates an opening for Iran and the “special groups” it supports. It’s time to press the Iraqis to take responsibility for their future. The best way to do that is a responsible redeployment of our combat brigades, carried out in close consultation with commanders on the ground.”
Obama emphasized that he was right about Afghanistan and McCain wasn’t:
“This is the central front in the war on terrorism. This is where the Taliban is gaining strength and launching new attacks, including one that just took the life of ten French soldiers. This is where Osama bin Laden and the same terrorists who killed nearly 3,000 Americans on our own soil are hiding and plotting seven years after 9/11. This is a war that we have to win. And as Commander-in-Chief, I will have no greater priority than taking out these terrorists who threaten America, and finishing the job against the Taliban.
“For years, I have called for more resources and more troops to finish the fight in Afghanistan. With his overwhelming focus on Iraq, Senator McCain argued that we could just “muddle through” in Afghanistan, and only came around to supporting my call for more troops last month. Now, we need a policy of ‘more for more’ – more from America and our NATO allies, and more from the Afghan government. That’s why I’ve called for at least two additional U.S. combat brigades and an additional $1 billion in non-military assistance for Afghanistan
, with a demand for more action from the Afghan government to take on corruption and counternarcotics, and to improve the lives of the Afghan people.
“We must also recognize that we cannot succeed in Afghanistan or secure America as long as there is a terrorist safe-haven in northwest Pakistan. A year ago, I said that we must take action against bin Laden and his lieutenants if we have them in our sights and Pakistan cannot or will not act. Senator McCain criticized me and claimed that I was for ‘bombing our ally.’ So for all of his talk about following Osama bin Laden to the Gates of Hell, Senator McCain refused to join my call to take out bin Laden across the Afghan border. Instead, he spent years backing a dictator in Pakistan who failed to serve the interests of his own people.”
And Obama’s record on veterans’ issues is much better than McCain’s:
“For those who return to civilian life, I will support their American Dream in this 21st century just as we supported generations of veterans in the 20th. That starts with education. Everyone who serves this country should have the same opportunity that my grandfather had under the GI Bill. That’s why, unlike my opponent, I was a strong and early supporter of Jim Webb’s GI Bill for the 21st Century – a bill that Senator McCain called too generous. At a time when the skyrocketing cost of tuition is pricing thousands of Americans out of a college education, this bill provides every veteran with a real chance to afford a world-class college education. And that’s what I’ll continue to stand up for as President.
“We must also stand up for affordable health care for every single veteran. That’s why I’ve pledged to build a 21st century VA. We need to cut through the red tape – every service-member should get electronic copies of medical and service records upon discharge. We need to close shortfalls – it’s time to fully fund VA health care, and to add more Vet Centers. We need to get rid of means-testing – every veteran should be allowed into the VA system. My opponent takes a different view. He wants to ration care so the VA only serves combat injuries, while everyone else gets an insurance card. While the VA needs some real reform to better serve those who have worn the uniform, privatization is just not the answer. We cannot risk our veterans’ health care by turning the VA into just another health insurer. We need to make sure the VA is strong enough to treat every veteran who depends on it. That’s what I’ll do as President.
“And we must expand and enhance our ability to identify and treat PTSD and Traumatic Brain Injury at all levels: from enlistment, to deployment, to civilian life. No one should suffer in silence, or slip through the cracks in the system. That’s why I’ve passed measures to increase screening for these unseen wounds, and helped lead a bipartisan effort to stop the unfair practice of kicking out troops who suffer from them. This is something I’ve fought for in the Senate, and it’s something that I’ll make a priority as President.”
Reading McCain’s speech yesterday and Obama’s speech today, it’s painfully clear only one of these two candidates is ready to lead. And I’ll give you a hint: it’s not McCain.
The response is fine for a small in-room audience. However, for the larger body politic, it is simply another defensive posture.
Challenging McCain to be a better man is weak, lukewarm tea. This is a fight, not a debate. That’s what Obama has yet to understand. Thus, he has not made clear what he is fight for, save his own election–and he’s showing that he’s not really willing to fight very hard, not even willing to sully his hands, for that goal.
The American people want change in the circumstances of their daily lives– the economy, healthcare, etc. They don’t care how politics is run. They don’t care if politicians are nice to each other. Obama is seriously miscalculating if he believes that what worked with his Democratic base in the primaries will work with the overall electorate.
Senator Obama is the truth.
The only question is “Can you handle the truth?”
Now, if that speech would just get covered by the MSM – especially the stuff about the GI Bill and Vets care that McCain has lied about to obviously, things would begin to turn around.
Had the spech been covered yesterday, I wouldn’t have written the post I did in the other thread. Obviously Obama did say damn close to exactly what I suggested – but nobody knows!! It’s online at BarackObama.com – and how many voters go there? Not even a sizable minority of committed Democrats.
If you tell the truth and it doesn’t get reported, does it matter????
To #1:
I disagree. Senator Obama is not challenging John McCain to be a better man.
He is establishing himself as the better man.
He is also letting America know that he is not for sale and will not sink to any level to win a political campaign.
If the only way that Senator Obama can win the Presidency is to be John McCain, then he (and America) has already lost.
To put it succinctly – the terrorists win – again.
Breaking News: Obama Endorses McCain!
“…I believe that he genuinely wants to serve America’s national interest.”
We now return to your regularly scheduled coronation.
leonce, there was a time, some 3-4 months ago when the nomination was still undecided, when i said in this very space basically what you’re saying here, and for my sins, i was denounced as an unspeakable right-winger. perhaps people should have thought a little more back then and not been in such a hurry to make obama the new reagan….
that said, tom cleaver is exactly correct: if a major speech isn’t given attention, it’s as if it didn’t happen. funny how often it works out that democratic speeches didn’t happen.
Camp McCainiac Response: How dare Senator Not-POW Obama question John POW McPOW (R-POW)!?
As much as I praise Obama for letting McSurge have it..
Let me once again praise General Petraeus and Ambassador Crocker – they are outstanding Americans. In Iraq, gains have been made in lowering the level of violence thanks to the outstanding efforts of our military, the increasing capability of Iraq’s Security Forces, the ceasefire of Shiite militias, and the decision taken by Sunni tribes to take the fight to al Qaeda.
Should read “Thank goodness for General Petranus and Ambassador Crock and their 12ft high cement barriers between Sunnis and Shias, the increasing susceptibility for the Iraqi Security forces to take bribes as well as the buying of temporary “loyalty” of Sunnis by paying them to not act indulgently and thus not calling them Al Qaeda in Iraq; a phrase widely used for people we either don’t know or people we like to throw into a convenient container known as Al’s Quesadilla”.
I read the whole speech. It was excellent. Did the collected group applaud after he finished? I also read McAce’s and Obama was right. McAce did noting but attack him personally and lie about his voting record on support for the Jim Webb Bill. I particularly like his asinine statement about following bin Laden into hell. I think, given his mean-spirited karma (McAce’s that is) that he’ll get his wish…
Sounds like Obama is striking a nice balance between refusing to abandon the “high road” but still hitting back forcefully at McCain’s utter wrong-headedness and lack of honor in the way he’s conducting the campaign.
I agree with those who say this message may not get out. However, I doubt that more favorable coverage in the TV news and large newspapers would do much, because low-information voters don’t get their news from the TV broadcast or the paper. Frankly I’m so thoroughly attached to the post-newspaper blogosphere that I don’t know where they get their information. Ads? Chain e-mails?
I’m sure most in the crowd got it but I wish he had added like Moscow.
Why is the national VFW whenever in convention assembled apparently only interested in guaranteeing that there’ll never be a shortage of FW”s to be a V of?
The GI Bill and VA stuff won’t move votes.
These veterans’ do’s — Kerry did them all , and it made no difference — are not aimed at veterans.
They’re theatre, aimed at voters. So long as the median voter is framed as a not very bright white guy who thinks he’s electing a president but actually hiring a contract killer — which is what all that 3-AM-phone-commander-in-chiefing nonsense amounts to — McCain’s the favorite. He can point to the bodies, and promise more. All the shvartze can do is promise.
I wil NOT be voting for an ADULTERER!
Given that old media refuses to cover Obama’s speeches with fair descriptions of what really happened or was said, it falls to the people to do it: blogs, readers, comment writers. That’s US, folks. So — talk to your friends, copy snippets here that you like, send to interested parties, ask them to pass along, write (I suppose) letters to the editor, more to show old media how the tide is turning, along with their circulation. (Perhaps, given commercial priorities, old media will begin to give more truly balanced accounts. Meanwhile, replace it.) Stay short and pithy (a little nuance goes a long way these days: we’re not used to it). In short: Rise up and speak. TV news, usually so bad but so influential, usually echoes what it thinks its viewers want to hear. Ditto most print. If people want Obama and change, old media will (albeit kicking and screaming) get on the bandwagon.
I have been wondering for some time whether Obama was taking it easy this summer, aware that the last few Dem candidates for president peaked too early, essentially keeping his powder dry until the convention.
Mid-primary, he proved he could be tough when it counted, yet backed off when it appeared HRC wouldn’t catch him in the delegate count — presumably not to worsen division within the party. So the idea that he might have been pacing himself in the post-primary/pre-general period doesn’t seem unreasonable.
Whatever the case, it’s a welcome change to see him become more forceful. I think this guy can still create excitement like we saw in the primary when he wants to. God, I hope so.
“Reading McCain’s speech yesterday and Obama’s speech today, it’s painfully clear only one of these two candidates is ready to lead. And I’ll give you a hint: it’s not McCain.”
Agreed.
But painfully clear to whom? The American people aren’t going to read both speeches and compare them. Ever. And they’re not going to sit through them either. How many people actually attend political speeches during a campaign, and what kind of people are they who do?
Obama has to learn to talk in sound bites in order to reach the American people. He needs to talk in catchy, flashy phrases that the media will pick up and replay during the 30 second political spot in the evening news, between commercials for Viagra and hairspray.
Otherwise what he says doesn’t exist, as many commenters have observed.
If an excellent speech id given in the middle of the VFW…and the media’s not around to report it…does it make a sound? Does it make a difference? I hope so.
More and more I suspect the media narrative is going to be not about criticizing Obama, but about MARGINALIZING him. Don’t get me wrong, McCain’s thunderdolts will be hitting Obama with every accusation they can dream up or find on the internets. But I fear the media-at-large is becoming kind of blase about Obama – “Oh, look there’s Obama again, TRYING to talk tough about McCain’s positions, TRYING to gain his lost footing, playing defense against McCain’s withering assault,” and all that sort of horseshit.
If this were a boxing match, then nothing short of a knockout would win this for Obama. The judges are all fudging their points for the other guy they love so much. Maybe after all this is over, we can all buy John McGain BBQ grills on QVC. But McCain’s not the guy we should want running this country, unless we want it run into the ground.
The Good Ship McLollipop—a leaky little worm-infested rowboat—is now discovering that USS Obama—nomenclature BB-50 State—is like the classic battleship when its massive firepower is unleashed from the confines of its supporting fleet.
Or would a better comparison be “McBambi Meets O-Zilla?”
I don’t have the same faith in the American voter than Obama apparently does. John Kerry effectively lost the election in August of 2004. I hope not, but my gut tells me that Obama is headed in the same direction. If McCaskill is all we’ve got for an attack dog, we are screwed. Its as if we don’t have the stomach for bare knuckled politics. For all his Southside bona fides, I haven’t seen much from Obama. Frankly, if Hillary had come out swinging from the beginning like she did after Super Tuesday, there might not be an Obama. I love all this high minded civic stuff, nice for the classroom, but this is the real world.
what a differance. obama is a leader and we must elect him to clean up the bush McCain mess that has gone on for far to long. obama is a savior for the united states of america. with him as our next president maybe we can regain the lost respect that we have suffered thru the bush era and return to a strong fruitful nation that other countries can once more look up to.
Really, Can’t question his love for the country? This from someone who constantly says that this country is broken and he, and he alone, can change that? This from someone who continually apologizes for this country? Oh yeah, how dare someone question his patriotism. After all, this is a job interview for Obama, but in this case, Obama decides what questions can be asked. I wish I could have job interviews like that.
why can’t this manuscript be sent to cnn for them to run instead of playing and replaying what McCain is saying about obama. we need help here so people start speaking up.
Yeah, too bad nobody but political junkies will ever see that speech. It’s not going to get reported by the media. He needs to put the gist of that speech in an ad and play it for all it’s worth. So far his campaign, aside from the grass roots organizing, which is admirable, has been remarkable only for its supine non-reaction to McCain accusations. He needs to launch a few vigorous ads of his own. He’s had one or two good ones, but that and a dime won’t buy you a cup of coffee.
Steve (#18) wrote…
nomenclature BB-50 State
Don’t you mean 57 State?
It’s usually common for the candidate who’s party isn’t currently in the White House to point out what is wrong with the country.
You don’t sway people by saying, “hey, everything is great in America, but you should really vote for me.”
Saying that the country is going in the wrong direction does not mean you don’t love this country. If it were the case, then Ronald Reagan and George W. Bush are two of the most unpatriotic presidential candidates in US history.
Gallup: Veterans Solidly Back McCain
PRINCETON, NJ — With both presidential candidates addressing the Veterans of Foreign Wars convention this week (John McCain on Monday and Barack Obama on Tuesday), Gallup finds that registered voters who have served in the U.S. military solidly back McCain over Obama, 56% to 34%.
If money talks, the troops are saying, ‘Vote Obama’
The academic debate is between some who say that junior enlisted ranks lean slightly Republican and some who say it’s about equal, but no one would point to six-to-one” in Democrats’ favor. “That represents a tremendous shift from 2000, when the military vote almost certainly was decisive in Florida and elsewhere, and leaned heavily towards the Republicans.”
I’m trying to make sense of these two conflicting stories, but I’m having a very tough time reconciling. Can anyone help out?
Six to one in favor of Obama???
There are several countries (former and current) in which “patriotism” means never criticizing one’s government and thinking it never, ever does any wrong.
China, the old U.S.S.R., pre-occupation Iraq, Iran, Burma, Zimbabwe, East Germany, and Germany circa 1939 are among them.
You must be so proud to find yourself in such wonderful company.
Or does your definition only apply when a Republican is in charge? Because I’ll bet any amount of money you had no issues criticizing the government when Clinton was in charge (if you’re even old enough to remember it).
In the mean time, can we please, please get some better trolls around here? Preferably ones who weren’t repeatedly dropped on their heads as children?
kthxbai
Dennis–
There is no “conflict” among the stories.
Vets are either older, or became vets in the 2000 time frame where they were leaning GOP. So it makes sense they back McCain.
The folks serving now, however, are younger, more informed, and have first-hand knowledge about what a mess the GOP has made of Iraq planning and implementation. Add in the stop-loss orders, repeated deployments, and McCain’s clamoring to “Bomb bomb bomb … bomb bomb Iran,” and you have the huge skew toward Obama.
So, again, not sure there’s really much of a conflict there. Just two different demographics (even if I am, admittedly, being too general in my definitions).
dennis, ever served in the military is a much bigger category than currently serving in the military.
in addition, there’s good reason to believe that black soldiers, over-represented in active military, might be donating to obama in unprecedented numbers.
#10
TV is exactly where “low information voters” get their information. “Terrorist fist bump.” anyone.
Chad, please explain what is patriotic about suspending the constitution, pre-emptive war, torture, and dependence on oil. What is patriotic about supporting tyranny?
Don’t worry, someday you’ll get to have a job interview.
Obama is speaking to the country now. He is not just speaking to voters with education and curiosity; he’s speaking to people who, like Chad, still think Saddam was responsible for 911 and had weapons of mass destruction and that Obama is a Muslim from Manchuria.
Watch a lot of TV Chad?
Correction to 2Manchu:
George W. Bush is the most unpatriotic presidential candidate in US history.
Trust me, Chad, when you grow up and study the last eight years you will wonder why George W. Bush hates America so much.
I wonder if it’s because Gallup knows that they’ve made such changes in the way military votes are processed that they’re confident that 5-1 AGAINST McCain can be converted to 2-1 FOR with virtually no sweat?
BTW, is anybody buying the bull about Cindy M’s delicate little form being damaged by an enthusiastic supporter?
Mark D @ 28–
Thanks Mark, but I’m not sure those two stories are anywhere close to being consistent. The second story leads one to believe there has been a recent sea change among the military and their views toward the war in Iraq. The poll results pretty much disagree with that assessment.
Good point, Capt Kirk.
The Audacity of Obama!
Sat 20 years listening to an anti-American racists “preacher”
20 year member of a church that glorifies Louis Farrakan
Cohert of Bill Ayers (unrepented domestic terrorist)
Wife wasn’t pround of her country till Obama got the nomination
Goes to Berlin and calls his country imperfect and apologizes
This list goes on and on, and I don’t have all day.
Truth is we know little about Obama, first term Senator who has voted present less than 150 days! And he has a long list of things that put questions in peoples mind about his love of country. The fact that his patriotism is still being questioned this far in the race shows a huge problem for Obama, this is something that shouldn’t ever come up in a Presidential race and yet Obama can’t shake it! Big problems people! But its not to late to pick Hillary!!!!!
Daniel, so sorry your love for Hillary has turned you into a McCain Parrot. What you should realize is that Hillary supports Obama despite your list of parroted lies and distortions. The “list” goes on in your mind…seek help.
I’ve got to believe that there’s one or two people posting under several names (like Daniel) — even in a random sample of five right-wingers, such a concentration of stupid is just not within the bounds of probability.
Stupid? The list goes on in your mind? See you have the same problem as Obama! Thats why this problem is still around! Don’t you get it? You have no arguement to a question that shouldn’t even be brought up in the first place, just turning to personal attacks is all you have.
The fact that we are this close to the election and voters are still concerned about Obamas patriotism is disturbing. This shouldn’t be something he has to wrestle with at this point, actually he should never have too, this shouldn’t even be a question! But because of his long list of actions and the anti-American associates he has been alligned with for so many years its still a problem. And I think every American has the right to question him on it.
So, Daniel, are you going to vote for McCain? The “voters still concerned about Obamas patriotism” are nothing more than racists who are reluctant to admit it. All anyone need do is listen to any one of Obama’s speeches and quit listening to McCain’s bizarre interpretations of them.
The “surge” that John McCain is so determined to own has now provided over a thousand dead American soldiers and hundreds of billions of American taxpayer dollars wasted. I would ask John McCain how much, in those terms, would his “victory” cost. And I think every American deserves the right to question him on it, but do we have anyone in the media who will ask the question?
Personal attacks? Oh, please.
There’s “no argument” not only because, as you admit, the question shouldn’t have been brought up in the first place, but because there’s no argument to have.
No it’s not.
What’s disturbing is the fact people like you have some kind of “Patriotism Test” that applies to Democrats, but not Republicans.
He’s not.
John McCain, the righwing noise machine, and Clinton supporters like you who just can’t let the fuck go are wrestling with it. The rest of the nation has moved on to things that actually matter.
If it shouldn’t be a question, why do you keep asking it?! Do you have a total lack of self awareness? Are you clinically stupid? Seriously … WTF?
I will await your list of the “anti-American” actions of Obama. Note: They have to be things Obama actually did. Not someone else, but Obama.
Also, please tell us all how 30-seconds of one sermon and a single fundraiser makes a “long list.” Thanks.
So every American has the right to question him on something you yourself admit shouldn’t even be a question?
When you write a sentence, do you have any clue what you wrote in the sentences that preceded it? Or do you just make shit up as you go along?
I’ll just end by noting something important on this topic:
Patriotism as practiced by the likes of the GOP, Chad the CBR Troll, and you is not patriotism. It’s fanatical nationalism.
The fact none of you realize the distinction is what has ruined our national discourse. Not bloggers. Not profane comments. But people like you who think our nation can do wrong, and brand anyone who dares dissent as less worthy of America than you.
There you go again! Racists who are reluctant to admit it? And sorry but it doesn’t matter what Obama says about how patriotic he is in a speech that was written by someone else; I hope that doesn’t make me a racists too.
And then you quickly change from Obamas love of country to the “surge”, nice way to change the subject Capt Kirk. I’ll take that as you admitting defeat.
Am I going to vote for McCain? Let me say that if you and Charles really want to help out Obama, then you should be telling people your voting for McCain. That would be sure to hurt his image!
I am happy that Obama did so much better than McCain in this speech because each one of these is a dry run up to the convention speeches, which will get 1,000,000 times more attention. I fully expect Obama’s convention speech to be very good and McCain’s to contain a the typical low road/ a lie a minute.
The idea that Obama should be questioned because he’s not farther ahead is perhaps one of the dumbest I’ve ever seen, and I occasionally read Captain Ed.
I have a theory that the entire GOP voting public is composed of two types:
a) Those who have an irrational hatred of Democrats.
b) Those who are so irretrievably stupid that they cannot understand the issues.
(These are the — relatively — sane ones. There are also others, but let us not go down that path.)
And then of course, there are those who fall into both groups.
Daniel,
Don’t give up. There’s hope for you. Sayeth the proverb: “Even a fool, when he holdeth his peace, is counted wise.”
Hey Charles go reread my post and then it will make more sense, I said “this close to the election”, not “this close of an election”. Thats the only thing I can see that you might be referring too. So go read it then come back with an arguement that pertains to what I actually said, thanks.
Mark D
“I will await your list of the “anti-American” actions of Obama. Note: They have to be things Obama actually did. Not someone else, but Obama.”
LOL. the fact that you have to write a disclaimer saying “They have to be things Obama actually did. Not someone else, but Obama.” is funny. I guess he gets a free pass on all the racist, anti-semite, and anti-American people he has alligned himself with over the years. How convenient for Obama!
Mark D again
“When you write a sentence, do you have any clue what you wrote in the sentences that preceded it? Or do you just make shit up as you go along?”
His patriotism shouldn’t even be a “in question” because there should not be a reason to doubt someone running for POTUS on his love of country. But with Obama thats not the case, sorry for the misunderstanding. Thats why Americans have a right to asks questions pertaining to his patriotism.
Daniel,
I could re-read your comment a thousand times and it would not be any less stupid.
What have you done that proves you love this country? Why should we believe you?
Im not running for POTUS! Once again changing the subject, now to my patriotism, and more personal attacks! If your the smart one here I guess that proves that intelligence and maturity dont go hand and hand. Goodnight. I feel like Im arguing with my brothers kids or something.
After the back to back speeches by the main presumptive candidates, I think Obama performed much better, but Bob Barr will get the upward bump! -Kevo
Daniel,
The point of my question was not to impugn your patriotism, but to point out that it is easy to impugn someone else’s patriotism.
With your intellectual skills, I bet you lose a lot of arguments with your brother’s kids.
Charles,
Haha thats pretty funny! But stop with the personal attacks! In an intelligent debate your going to always be the loser if you start with the personal attacks,ok. Im trying to help ya out here Charles, up your skills so next time we can really have a debate. 😉
But I understand your between a rock and a hard place on this one, theres no real way you can prove Obamas patriotism. You should have admitted that eight comments ago and this would have been over! He does not have enough of a record to prove how much he loves his country, but he does have a record that casts doubt to alot of people, and to bad for him it does take years to prove but yet just a few bad associations to tear down, and thats where Obama stands.
But with all this debate and all the name calling and attempts to justify Obama, nowhere has anyone questioned the patriotism of John McCain, did you notice that? Noone has any reason to doubt him, and he has a long list to prove his love of country, maybe by the time 2012 rolls around noone will doubt Obamas and hell have added to his list, then he actually might have a chance.
Daniel,
Before I’d be willing to engage in an intelligent discussion with you, I’d have to have a lot more evidence there’s any intelligence to discuss with.
I see no reason to question anybody’s patriotism, let alone McCain’s. It’s his judgment that appears to be missing in action.
I can see why you’d be attracted to his candidacy. I’ve known lots of people who feel threatened by those more intelligent than themselves, and, on that basis, McCain is going to threaten very few people, even you.
Seriously, if you come spouting baloney, expect to be ridiculed.
Remember when you said how I wasn’t convincing anybody to vote for Obama? That may be because I’m not trying. I learned long ago that convincing people who do not know me and cannot judge my expertise is pointless to try. I’ve already talked a bunch of people I know into not voting for McCain, though.
Charles-
It’s obvious you have nothing to argue with other than personal attacks. You’re really in a tough situation. With Obama, you can’t defend his patriotism, his record, or almost anything about him! He’s almost been a US Senator for less days than he’s been running for president, so you don’t really have a voting record, a military history, or anything. When questions get asked about his patriotism or his love for his country, you have nothing to defend with. When questions get asked about his stances or beliefs, you have nothing to defend with other than speeches. We all know politicians will say anything to get elected, so believing in a poiliticians’ speeches is like believing in Santa Clause.
That’s why you attack McCain and his supporters personally. There’s no way to defend Obama, so you have to offend the opposing side. Here’s th truth the way I see it. McCain is far from perfect. I don’t agree with a lot of the things he’s done in the Senate. But, I can tell you I’d much rather have McCn, where I know what Im going ot get in a president than someone like Obama where I hae no idea what he’ll do…. (Continued in next post)
I’ve learned what happens when a President has no experience. Remember Jimmy Carter?!? A great Christian man that wanted to do great things, but had no experience whatsoever. He had a great vision, but he was in so far over his head he couldn’t see the shore! Do you remember Reagan winning EVERY STATE other than Carter’s home state after his 4 years in office? I do! That’s how bad he screwed over our country.
I’ll give you that Obama is a great oratator. He can give a speech better than most people I’ve seen in my life, but watch him when it’s town hall style where questions come that he isn’t prepared for and he’s away from his teleprompter. That’s jsut one of the things that shows me he can’t think on his toes and that he’s not ready to be president.
Rusty,
I’m not here to defend Obama. As I said earlier, my primary interest is in the pathologies of intellect in McCain supporters. It’s odd. Although there are plenty of people who I wonder about who support Obama, I have yet to meet a McCain supporter of even average intelligence who wasn’t a wacko…
Speak on. I can’t decide for sure if you are a wacko or just dumber than dirt, but if you give me a few more samples, I’ll be set.
You may think of this as “ad hominem” — but the sad fact is, most people with at least the reasoning capability of a radish regard folks like you as comic relief — if they don’t regard it as evidence of a tragic failure of American education.
Charles-
Once again, you prove yourself true with the same old hate-filled speech of personal-attacks. Someone once taught me that if you couldn’t defend your own belief without trashing the opposing believer, you may not have much of a belief at all. That seems true in this case too.
I haven’t heard anything about Obama did this, Obama’s going to do this, or McCain can’t do this. All I’ve heard is the intelligence equivalence of a 8 year old saying, “Yeah, well your dumb!”
It’s really laughable. Please just read back through your replies and tell me if there was ONE, and I beg you just ONE intelligent response based on facts inside of the election?
I know you can’t. Save yourself the time.
Let me tell you one more thing though. You mentioned that you worry about a lot of Obama supporters intelligence level and all McCain Supporters too. Since that just about covers 75-80% of the nation that you worry about being unintelligent, maybe you ought to judge your own intelligence.
It just seems funny to me that the person self-proclaimed judge of intelligence can’t come back with anyhting better than “I think you’re dumb.” If I wanted to have a conversation on that level, I’d just reply back with another 8 year old’s famous cut down…..”Your mom!” 🙂
Rusty,
Practically every single post made by the author of this blog is an intelligent, reasoned argument why Obama would make a better president than McCain.
I don’t really feel it necessary to add to his work.
OK, I’ve got you pegged. ‘nough said, you should really stick to others at the 8-year old development level.
Don’t you mean 57 State?
Now Chad—you know I don’t count those seven little men you have hidden in your bathroom closet.. The State of Grumpy, the State of Bashful, the State of Sneezy, the state of Dopey, the State of Doc, the State of Happy, and the State of Sleepy are all figments of your personal State of Messiah Complex….
So what does one have to do to not have their patriotism questioned?
Serve in the military, in combat?
Didn’t help George McGovern, or Max Cleland, or John Kerry. Three decorated combat veterans who had their patriotism dragged through the mud by chickenhawk dirtbags.
Maybe a candidate shouldn’t say that America is in the crapper. Unless your Richard Nixon, or Ronald Reagan, or George W. Bush.
Trying to say that Barack Obama is less patriotic than John McCain without any evidence to prove it (stuff Obama actually did or said), is such a load of bullshit.
Charles,
It is often funny how you end your statements. I should go back to bebating with 8 year olds, yet I feel like I debated with one 2 or 3 times yesterday. With your comments that continue to be equal to “Yeah, well you aren’t as smart as I am,” but possibly enhanced by a thesaurus, I’ve got to say that debating an 8 year old may even be harder competition. I always love people to be the self-proclaimed judges of everyone else. They talk to people for 5 minutes and think they know anything and everything about that person. Now that you obviously know how smart I am, can you tell me other stuff about me? It seems that you have a special talent, and I was just wondering how talented you may really be. Maybe guess my weight? height? or hair color? I hear they give good-paying jobs at the fair for people with those skills!
If you feel you don’t have to defend Barak Obama or his polcies, why even write back to me? Me nor any of the other conservative writers on this board came on here and attacked your mental capability or anythiing of that nature. We simply came on this site to talk about politics. You responding to questions about Obama’s record and past relationships with questionable characters with personal attacks showed the blatant immaturity of someone that can’t debate his point of view.
Let me explain to you something that you’ll probably never understand. I respect both sides of the political isle. I understand why liberals vote the way they do and why conservatives vote the way they do, for the most part. I dont think it has anything to do with intelligence or IQs. It has a lot more of a base in what you use to make your decisions. If you use more of your emotions and feelings to make your decisions, you’ll be voting one particular side of the isle. If you use your mind and thought process with little concern about emotion, you’ll be voting the opposite side of the isle. This has been proven time and time again.
So, drop the whole “lack of intelligence” crap from your debating and bring some actual meat to your posts if you’d like to converse about politics. Otherwise, stay out of the conversation since no one personally attacked you and you dont feel like talking about Obama or McCain at all. If that’s the case and you just want to get into personal drudgery, they have a 12 and under chat room over at Disney.com that your debate tactics will go over much better.
Have a great day! 🙂