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Thrilled to bring you this month’s Greatest Moral Podcast Of Our Generation.

Every 4 weeks on the A Rational Fear feed, Linh Do and I (Dan Ilic) present a climate news update and a long-form conversation with leader in climate action. This month’s chat is excellent.

Two very different brains leading climate conversations in their own powerful way.

Osher Gunsberg (The Bachelor / Better Than Yesterday Podcast) and Mike Canon-Brookes (Atlassian / SunCable)

Osher is using his celebrity to draw his broad audience to his podcast where he has meaningful conversations about climate anxiety and climate action.

And Mike is using his own personal wealth and huge influence in the business community to drive innovation and wedge government into climate action.

Great chat, an honour to speak with them both in the same Zoom call.

Cheers,

Dan Ilic

A NOTE ON AUDIO: The first 8minutes of the conversation sound a bit rubbish because I forgot to hit record on my Rodecaster, so we had to use the audio from the Zoom recording which isn’t as high fidelity. So bear with us, it does get better.

Big thanks to The Bertha Foundation, our Patreon Supporters and RODE Mics. Jacob Round,

Unknown Speaker 0:00

This podcast is supported in part by the birther foundation

Dan Ilic 0:04

to the greatest moral podcast of our generation joining me of course as she does for every one of these special greatest moral podcasts of our generations is lindow fellow Bertha Fela gaylin

Linh Do 0:15

Hello, hello, Iris. So good to be back.

Dan Ilic 0:18

This is our second greatest moral podcast of our generation. A huge thank you to everyone who listened to our Kevin Rudd episode, I think had a lot of good feedback from that, particularly around people who love the nitty gritty of climate backstabbing.

Linh Do 0:31

Yeah, the interview was amazing. And I think it just makes me even more eager to wait for when those cabinet files get released. You know, I'll be one of those geeks eagerly awaiting exactly what happened and will finally know who was the liar after all.

Dan Ilic 0:46

This of course, is out on the irrational fear feed every month we bring you an in depth conversation about climate change with climate legends and a little bit more about who is on our podcast a little later on. But first of all, a big thank you to our new irrational fear Patreon members including Nick with a K Lysa Yeager, Shelly Carr Simone Kevin and Tim Stevenson chipping in to help irrational fear jump to patreon.com forward slash irrational fear to support the podcast another way to spot irrational fear is to offset the carbon emissions from your car with go neutral for every $90 sticker go neutral by 3.5 tonnes of carbon offsets which is about the average yearly emissions for a car and then five bucks that comes to us to go neutral. Click on the link in the show notes. I'm recording my end of irrational feet on gadigal land and your nation's sovereignty was never ceded. We need a treaty. Let's start the show. Despite

Unknown Speaker 1:33

global warming, rational fear is adding a little more hot air with long form discussions with climate leaders. Good.

Unknown Speaker 1:44

This is called

Unknown Speaker 1:45

Don't be fright, the heat waves and droughts greatest mass extinction when facing a manmade disaster, podcast, climate

Unknown Speaker 1:58

shiana ration

Unknown Speaker 2:01

all of this with global warming

Unknown Speaker 2:02

and a lot of it's a hoax. But write a small podcast about generation.

Unknown Speaker 2:09

For sure.

Dan Ilic 2:10

All right, listen, let's get into our climate news for this week. Story number one, Australia joins the US China and Russia in refusing to sign our latest pledge on biodiversity. Is this any kind of surprise that we are with the US Russia and China on this lid?

Linh Do 2:26

Never Never surprised. But I mean, last year during the Madrid climate negotiations, we were with Saudi Arabia and given you know, everything that we're hearing about how koalas are going extinct, the billions of animals that were wiped out, unfortunately, during the recent bush fires, you think we'd care a little bit more

Dan Ilic 2:43

than there's a lot of similarities between Australia and Saudi right, but particularly about the way we treat our journalists,

Linh Do 2:47

that is definitely for alarming, but we still call ourselves a democracy. So it's a scary path that we're headed down.

Dan Ilic 2:54

Now. The Morison government said it refused to sign this global pledge, endorsed by 64 other countries committed to reverse biodiversity loss because it was inconsistent with Australia's policies, namely, net zero by 2050, which pretty much the rest of the world is signed up to. Australia has committed to net zero but before 2100, which is absolutely hilarious. I mean,

Linh Do 3:14

we weren't really alive then. So I guess for us, that's how we have to feel better about it. That's how I go to sleep at night.

Dan Ilic 3:21

And can I say thank God, I won't be alive then because it's gonna be too hot to live. kitten joshy, the climate hero on Twitter did tweet some calculations of his own, which were taken from the government's own data a few months back, and he suggested that we're actually on track to meet our net zero targets by 2300. So that's about the double length of Australia's colonised period.

Linh Do 3:42

The numbers at that point are just eye watering. Really, it's really hard to comprehend how our policies account for multiple multiple generations from now.

Dan Ilic 3:53

It's so interesting. This is the latest pledge put together by the WWF and un, I jumped over to the latest pledge page because anybody can sign up to it and sign their organisation up to it so I put you dear listener behind the pledge. So irrational fear is now signed up to this pledge. So putting out 10,000 listeners a month behind the pledge good on us.

Unknown Speaker 4:16

Yay by diversity.

Dan Ilic 4:18

I emailed Terry Butler as well because she had some comments to say about you know, why scammer didn't sign up but she had at this point in time, she hasn't got back to me whether she actually signed up to the pledge herself, but they went to the website and if you are, if you are a head of state of a country, you can actually click through to a form and sign up your country so I actually went through and signed us up as well. But they haven't got back to me is to verify my identity. I said I was the Minister for climate action and in fear That's what I said.

Linh Do 4:50

They ignore that doesn't exist in Australia. Although you know, it's like so funny given her our head of state actually is is that the royal family is all behind by diversity like Prince Charles huge support Well, this

Dan Ilic 5:00

is the thing this is absolutely things have the google doc says Head of State for your country and technically our head of state is the claim. So maybe we are already signed up by default.

Linh Do 5:10

Well, you know, one of the benefits of colonisation and the Commonwealth and the British Empire is potentially we can follow in the footsteps of what the UK is doing right now. I like

Dan Ilic 5:19

that if Tony Abbott was was Prime Minister and Lizzy asked him to he probably signed up to that pledge.

Linh Do 5:25

Her would have thought I used to think I was a Republican in terms of you know, supporting the Republic, but here we are. All for the monarchy

Dan Ilic 5:33

story number two. Exxon's plan for surging carbon emissions revealed in Lake documents now this story is interesting it as the rest of the kind of fossil fuel industry is planning on phasing out its emissions Exxon over the next five years is planning on increasing them by 17%. Are you surprised at all by this lindo?

Linh Do 5:54

I feel like Exxon has written the playbook on big organisations and companies that we can't trust Rio Tinto has just proven that again, in Australia, it almost doesn't matter what they otherwise say they're going to be doing because there's always something that they're trying to sweep under the rug.

Dan Ilic 6:09

This is really interesting bhp. So put out an article or somebody put out an article about bhp actually doing further oil exploration even though they've signed a pledge to get out of the fossil fuel game. But they're still exploring fossil fuels. I guess they're searching for it. So they can go put up a big sign saying don't dig here. I guess this was a finding under protected.

Linh Do 6:27

It wants to know that it's there. It's almost like you know, these big companies, someone in the PR department signing up to all of these pledges, maybe the by diversity one even, but then just you know, there's another part of it where engineers or whoever are going off and exploring new oil fields. It's just really reprehensible really,

Dan Ilic 6:47

shift in person is really significant significant for a company like Exxon, if its plans are realised Exxon would add to the atmosphere, the annual emissions of a small developed nation or 26, coal fired power plants. That's, that's insane over the next five years,

Linh Do 7:06

absolutely wild. It's interesting that you've been encouraging listeners to go neutral with their carbon emissions from their car. Do you think people will now change their mind about where they fill up?

Dan Ilic 7:20

yet? Absolutely. I'm gonna get a fill up with Shell. Definitely.

Linh Do 7:28

Buddy. Sorry, that was a bit of a question.

Dan Ilic 7:32

Can I say they extremely limited, particularly around bond I'm pretty sure Mobil Exxon is the only place I can actually fill up.

Linh Do 7:39

Well, the idea is to be a good carbon advocate is to drive even further in your heart to the nearest suburb Lin visit, or petrol station. I don't think that logic works out.

Dan Ilic 7:50

Are you telling me I'm gonna have to drive from Bondi to rosebay bp to fill up now? Oh, my God.

Linh Do 7:59

You're carbon neutral. So it doesn't

Unknown Speaker 8:01

matter. It just doesn't. Just doesn't matter.

Dan Ilic 8:04

Okay. Now, Matt Canavan has been slammed for his use of the Black Lives Matter slogan. And he's got a ute. And he's got black coal matters on the back of his unit. Tell us a bit about the story.

Linh Do 8:17

Well, why do we even start sometimes, when I like wake up to the news in Australia, I'm like, of course, that just happened. Of course, that just happened. Um, given the way that we tray, our indigenous people in this country, pretty reprehensible given the way that we have, you know, gone on to other people's country, and like, you know, built new coal power stations doesn't make sense. I think the only good that I could sort of try to say from this is maybe then rules out the argument that we have in this country for supporting brown coal, which, you know, whilst all calls no good ground calls even more inefficient, even more dirty, so at least, we're prioritising within, you know, the scale of bad things we already do.

Dan Ilic 8:58

I can't believe they've appropriated this activist language for their own activist language. It really hurts my head a little bit.

Linh Do 9:05

Yep. Well, you know, they're borrowing from the people who do do things well. So maybe this is a sign that I'm campaigning for Black Lives Matter, really is working.

Dan Ilic 9:14

Just another example of why people aren't ready black culture.

Unknown Speaker 9:18

Yep, never ending.

Dan Ilic 9:20

And finally, let's talk about the 2021 budget. Lin. Katyn Joshi, as we've mentioned before, is a fantastic tweeter on climate. You got to follow him. Ke TANJ. Oh, he did this great tweet this week, while when the budget was happening, he took the budget speech hit Ctrl F and search for the word climate. It appeared only once in Josh frydenberg speech. The sentence was 1.9 billion in new funding as part of our energy plan to support low emissions of renewable technologies, helping to lower emissions and climate change followed by the sentence. We're also helping to unlock five key gas basins, isn't that just doesn't that just symbolise everything that Australia is about when it comes to emissions actually And when

Linh Do 10:00

exactly it feels like that one mention was just say say we did talk about it, don't think about it in context.

Dan Ilic 10:08

I think that was actually my tweet as well off the back of kittens was like, say they did mention it. They didn't say climate. We didn't say climate.

Linh Do 10:14

We said it. They did about us know exactly. You know, it's about making sure that everyone gets represented, even if in this case, representation literally meant nothing.

Dan Ilic 10:25

So chillin. What I love about the budget speech, every time it comes around, it's kind of like our own version of the State of the Union speech, but it's really, really shared.

Linh Do 10:34

And it's way wonky. I have never been invited to a budget party, but I've been to my fair share of State of the Union ones in the US.

Dan Ilic 10:42

Somebody plays invite lindo to their budget party,

Linh Do 10:45

foreign into financial year one, I am open to all super geeky economic party conversations

Dan Ilic 10:51

into financial year ones are the best because often companies use that instead of Christmas. And so they treat their employees very well so that you definitely want to get on that gravy train.

Unknown Speaker 11:01

Okay, good to know. Good to know.

Dan Ilic 11:03

All right. For this week's podcast, we bring you a big conversation I had last week with Asha Gunzburg and, and Mike cannon Brookes at the Smart Energy summit. What I liked about this, it was a good chat with two really random people, you know, Asha Gunzburg, and Mike cannon Brookes. What do these people have in common? Yeah, okay. Well, you know, for those who don't know, Asha is the host of the bachelor, Mike cannon. Brooks is the software developer for Atlassian and and energy entrepreneur. What do you think these people have in common? Lynn? Do they have anything in common at all?

Linh Do 11:34

Well, honestly, on the surface, not so much. I think when I look at the image of like, I am confused. It feels like definitely a sort of a joke of, you know, three very random people walk into a bar, what happens? But I think this is sort of the good thing about what's happening in Australia is we have so many people who you think wouldn't care about climate change getting on board, because they recognise we all have a stake in our future.

Dan Ilic 11:56

I mean, in the chat, I discuss it further. But I feel like the only thing that really kind of draws these two together is that probably a decade ago, climate change wasn't a central part of their work. But now it is, as with all of us. Many of you might be wondering, where are the women on the panel, I asked this as well as from the organisers as well. They said, What do you want from me? I got I got one of the most famous people on TV and I got one of the biggest billionaires and I said, Well, Oracle is either a billionaire woman or a famous woman who could also be on this panel as well. So anyway, that they said that was enough. Without further ado, please enjoy this chat with Mike cannon Brooks and Asha Gunzburg.

Unknown Speaker 12:31

You're listening to the greatest moral podcast about generation

Dan Ilic 12:37

to many in Australia. Asha is a handsome face and has been in the front of many of the biggest TV moments in Australia, including stuff like channel v Australian Idol, the mass singer, Bachelor franchise, there hasn't been a rose ceremony he hasn't been part of. But what you may not know about Asha is that he is also a student of the world deeply connected with thought leaders around the globe. Asha has been part of s&m think School of Creative Leadership. He's interviewed some of the most interesting brains of culture, science and society. And on his podcast better than yesterday, he's managed to pull that bachelor audience into a very interesting deep thinking space. So don't be fooled by his $70,000 hairstyle. Brain is switched on to climate change, and he regularly profiles activists, entrepreneurs in the climate space. He was even on q&a s climate solutions panel earlier this year.

Osher Gunsberg 13:24

Welcome, Marsha. Thanks, Dan. I'm really grateful to be here. To be a part of this event is a real privilege and looking ally.

Dan Ilic 13:32

And speaking of q&a, our other guests today was on the show on Monday. He's a real jet setter. In fact, when he was eight years old Mike cannon Brookes managed to buy his first computer on frequent flyer points, opting for an Amstrad pay say 20. A choice he still regrets to this very day. He is the co founder of Atlassian team collaboration software company is a passionate clean energy evangelist. He's also one of Australia's great muckrakers, probably in a previous era, we would have called him a larrikin. He uses his change for the better however, Mike has co opted the term fair dinkum power from Scott Morrison and turned it into a war cry for renewables. And using not much more than Twitter and a few phone calls. Mike was the driving force behind Australia getting one of the world's largest lithium ion batteries, which was only superseded by the one they put in the back of Peter Dutton. We welcome Mike cannon Brookes.

Mike Cannon-Brookes 14:23

Thanks Good. Good to be here man. I like that was quite an intro. I don't know we've been over the PC 20 layers of Usher's microphone that he does you guys do have some some good microphone gang during

Osher Gunsberg 14:35

mocking I know a guy. Okay.

Dan Ilic 14:39

Well, before we get away, let's have a message from our sponsor.

Unknown Speaker 14:42

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Unknown Speaker 14:47

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Unknown Speaker 15:17

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Dan Ilic 15:35

Now, fellas, so it is a way of icebreaker so we can get to know each other get to understand our own our own ideas behind climate change, I thought we'd just do a little climate quiz. I've got the answers here that are given to me by Angus Taylor's office, but I want you to answer as truthfully as possible. So first of all, let's get the quiz underway. Folks, what is the best way to lower emissions? I'm sure Mike, what is the best way to lower emissions to jump in whenever you're ready? I shall. I shall go Russia.

Osher Gunsberg 16:07

I dig things out of the ground. Sell them once and somebody overseas and then burn them?

Dan Ilic 16:13

Oh, yes. That's correct. That's correct. Very good. All right, next question. Of course, Angus wrote, the best way to lower emissions is to make more emissions. That's what Angus asked me to let you know. All right. Next question. What is the one technology that's going to save the planet? suffocating from greenhouse gas? What is the one technology's going to save the planet from suffocating with greenhouse gas? Freeze? trace. Oh, I'm sorry. It's gas. greenhouse gas. All right. Well, gas. Yeah. More gas. More gas. Yeah, yeah. Okay. What is the best way to strengthen ties without Island neighbours and security partners in the Pacific? What is the best way to strengthen ties without island?

Osher Gunsberg 16:55

I should allow said Pacific to rise up and swallow them. Yes. That's very, very good.

Dan Ilic 17:02

Actually. You've done you've done your work here. All right. Excellent. Final question. The world is meeting again, a cop 26 in Glasgow next year. What's the best way to impress our global trading partners at that conference? What is the best way?

Osher Gunsberg 17:17

Again, a second shirt fronting

Dan Ilic 17:21

shirt Friday? I'll I'm not. I'm not sure that's quite right. The answer is, I'm afraid it's time to take a hodgepodge of mythical technology solutions not proven to work. And once again, be the bang whale on the supermarket trolley of progress and drag the rest of the world to the 10 items or less line. But arcia Congratulations, you have won the quiz well done.

Osher Gunsberg 17:44

That's terrible. Well, you want to get that wrong?

Dan Ilic 17:48

Oh, it's great to have you both here. Now we're all awake. Let's get stuck into the conversation, a satirist and a TV host and a software engineer, or walk into a bar and decide to make climate change the centre of what they do. How does that even happen for us three. Climate change is now part and parcel of our work. But as entertainers and creators of things 10 years ago, probably no really wasn't as important. Mike, let's start with you. How have you managed to kind of put climate at the centre of kind of what you're doing right now?

Mike Cannon-Brookes 18:17

Look, I think it's obviously a really, really important problem, if not the most existential challenge for humanity, depending on where in the spectrum you fall, I'd be towards the latter end of that spectrum personally. And I don't think it's going to take just, you know, green minded folk to solve. If you ask me, it's as much as an economic problem and a finance problem and a creative problem, storytelling problem. And we need all parts of society to get involved in solve that. Like, I've always been interested in technology, and the economics of things, business and other bits and pieces. So I happen to have some strengths that are super useful. But I, I think it's a good example, on your panel, if you need lots of different types of people to be tackling and attacking this problem.

Dan Ilic 19:03

What was there a single moment for you was like, was there like an aha moment that can you kind of brought you to this issue that you were like, wow, you know, I gotta do something I can I can do something.

Mike Cannon-Brookes 19:13

Look, certainly the big big battery from the intro was a large turning point for me personally, sort of got myself involved in a bit of a bingo there. And then, you know, when we got it solved, again, the reason I think that was such an amazing event is rarely have we had a lot of people shit on an ID, then the idea get built in Yeah, it gets proven in such a short period of time.

Dan Ilic 19:38

Right? If you've never worked, if you've never worked in television, like you've never worked in television that happens all the time.

Mike Cannon-Brookes 19:42

Well, but it was really instructive for me it because I had to learn a huge amount of content personally and got much more into the electricity system and how it works and why it works and how that affects climate change and emissions. And it was sort of a big startup a big journey for me, I suppose. But secondly, To see all of the stories in politics and other things behind it, and then to have that sort of laid, laid bare really quickly was was just a fascinating exercise. For me as someone who just says, that's just broken. Like I like fixing things that are broken.

Dan Ilic 20:15

That just seemed unjust. That was not right. People weren't saying the correct things. And I was perhaps naive before that. I think that is a really beautiful phrase like fixing things that are broken. Our show, what about you? How does how does someone go from hosting television shows in Hollywood to kind of being a climate change communicator?

Osher Gunsberg 20:33

I think, for me, it's because it became an undeniable problem, Dan, you know, became something that it was just, I was no longer able to ignore. If you'll allow me to virtuous virtue signal for just a moment, it was about 22 years ago that I stopped eating meat. When I, you know, I saw I started to struggle with how much resources were required to create the same sort of calorie of plant protein versus animal protein. And I just couldn't get by with that in mind, that's a bit weird. And that was kind of coupled with, you know, I seen with my own eyes or guns, snorkelling on the Great Barrier Reef in 1992. And again, in 2004, in on the same spot, and I was just bamboozled and horrified at what I saw, and, and as the years roll on, and the conversations aren't getting any more progressive, the need to start to talk about this stuff is bigger and bigger. I think, for me, oh, we can talk about it later, as far as you know, the kind of conversations that I've had around this. But Mike's got a really important point there that there's so much more going on. That trying to drive conversations about it is is really, really the only thing that I'm possibly able to do. I mean, I'm not Mike, I can't organise a massive battery to happen, you know, the way that he was able to do, but I can't have conversations and I can, like, if it gets to the point where the bloke accounts, the roses on your television and talking about climate change, it's time we did something. Okay.

Dan Ilic 22:02

I really love that. That's great. Um, Mike, did you? This is a kind of a strange question to be asking. But I, you know, I certainly ask it from a good faith position. As someone who has worked in climate kind of activism for a while. There may be some people out there who feel like you're a Johnny come lately to this space. Do you feel any kind of resentment from from folks out there? I mean, are you out to steal climate campaigners Limelight?

Mike Cannon-Brookes 22:30

I mean, simple answer is No, man, I'm trying to help people solve a problem. I've been lucky enough to get myself in a position where when I speak my mind, people listen, which is great. And like Asha is for a totally different reason. Right? When he speaks, people listen, and to solve the problem, as I said, I think you need a lot of different things. Right? And so while Yeah, sure I get on Twitter every so often, and cause a bit of a stink, I mean, have a very large fund. Now, I think we're north of a billion dollars in personal investments between my wife and I and sustainability initiatives. So you know, whenever people say and put your money where your mouth is, I'm like, that's not quite true. And, you know, fortunate enough to be able to back large projects and really make a difference and change things. Have a very different storytelling ability to Asha, because you come from a technology and economics point of view, where you can say, Hey, I firmly believe solving this problem is is an economic problem. It's as much a finance issue as a wholesale thing. I'm glad you said, Mr. Owen before, as it is a technology issue, right? I firmly we don't need a another panel, we need ways of getting more panels out more quickly. And that becomes a finance equation. Right? We can talk about that. But the nexus of technology and science and economics is a really important point to have communicated

as well as that I've got, you know,

Unknown Speaker 24:03

I don't know, I

Mike Cannon-Brookes 24:04

suppose abilities to to, you know, talk to politicians and talk to opportunities. You call them amazing opportunities, right. And, and it's great. Often when I talk to them, I'm like, trying to convince them to see how the future is going to be it's almost the as I said to someone else, the curse of people that live in technology is we see what's going to happen 1020 years down the line, but we live in a disruptive, constant world. That's what we do. And you're like, well, this is how it works. And they're like, Oh, no, but you know, the power stations have been like this for 30 years and you're like, no, you're operating on 1982 economics like this is not this is just not how it works today. So I just

Dan Ilic 24:38

love I just love watching you on q&a Monday and just the ability to cut through politicians speak with just in effect effectively. You didn't say what you're saying is bullshit but the way you said it said Oh, sounds like bullshit, but

Unknown Speaker 24:55

I was warned not

Osher Gunsberg 24:56

use the word bullshit, which is why use the word buncombe

Mike Cannon-Brookes 25:00

I would I was just one on this one. So I hope that was all right.

Dan Ilic 25:04

No, I think you're allowed to say what

Unknown Speaker 25:07

your look looks like

Mike Cannon-Brookes 25:08

politicians have a tough job though, because they, they're trying to get elected, right, almost like their primary goal is to get elected. And then their second goal is to get something done. Yeah. And I don't think it should be that way around. But that's the reality of, of what's going on. Right. And so if you don't have to get elected, you can say, well, the correct answer is actually to do this. Let me explain to you why that answer is correct. Rather than, like, let me give the answer that's correct enough to get me elected, but we'll make some form of progress.

Dan Ilic 25:38

You You both both of you, Mike, and I should have been on q&a, Mike, last night. On Monday night, you were you're very much facts and figures, driving home, what you know, and driving home a vision of what could life could be Asha, your experience was a little different on q&a. It was it was had different kind of words attached to it, you know, very emotional kind of hope and grief are all tied into that. What What was that experience like being on q&a and kind of talking about climate on q&a for you?

Osher Gunsberg 26:07

Well, for me, if anybody knows my story, it was initially it was quite terrifying. Because I actually had quite a horrible episode of climate anxiety that tipped up into the actually episodes of psychosis and manifested as paranoid delusions. And I was actually when I was living in North America at the time, I was living in Venice Beach and I would go for run down the beach, and I would I try to see the oceans swallowing the houses along the boulevard, there it was, it was really, really horrible. And so it's still Yeah, it's tricky. You know, feeling anxiety having this conversation right now. But for me, being with that discomfort being with that is the only antidote that there is to this and being an action is the only antidote that there is to climate anxiety. You can pretend that it's not there, like a cancer diagnosis, you can wish it doesn't exist. You can carry on buying packs of diaries, you can just keep going and pretend everything's gonna be fine. But you know, that thing is messed metastasizing inside your body is eating you from the inside. Similarly, we just kind of have to be with it. We have to be with how grievous we need to fail, you know, and I did say it across the summertime when I started to see it in other people's eyes, people were talking to me because I've read my book and now like, are you are I actually am because I can see the fear that I saw in myself and other people now. And I get the feeling that I'm not I'm not alone, you know, obviously down experiencing what I was experiencing, because my fear was an irrational fear, Dan, but they get it. And the only antidote, once you've had that time to grieve, and you, once you start to realise it, I think this is what conversations about climate are so hard, because once you start to realise, like, hang on, we've done what, and even if we did everything tomorrow, it would still be worse for like, 20 years. What, like, that's a horrible thing to suddenly realise. And of course, it's confronting, and people don't want to talk about it. And giving people space to feel that is important, and allowing them to be with that grief, because it's only once you've sat in it and gone right then, well, I guess waterfalls of crises are a good thing. Um, what can I do? And then you move into action. And that's really the only thing and that's really what I was trying to talk about on q&a was like, being inaction is the only antidote to climate anxiety.

Dan Ilic 28:19

Yeah. And, Mike, you are a person of action, you were just talking about kind of your ability to kind of leapfrog competitors and innovate. And to use that overused Wayne Gretzky quote, you know, skating where the puck is going to be, is Australia skating where the puck is going to be?

Mike Cannon-Brookes 28:35

Look, I don't think we are, but I think we should be. I think perhaps,

I think that the climate change problem, let's face it, the climate crisis writ large is an incredibly hard problem to solve. Right? And part of the reason it's incredibly hard problem to solve is because it's a prisoner's dilemma by nature, right? Anytime you have someone bullshit you and say, oh, we're only like a couple percent of the problem. So why do we bother? Let's Let's write it. It's like, okay, you can get upset about that. But it's going to require the entire world to come together and solve this run. However, for Australia, we have this amazing opportunity, which should frustrate us even more, because we actually have an opportunity in this. It's not just doing our 2%. It's the ability for us to build, literally the future of our country. And I think when we talk about skating, where the puck is going to be, it's not about solving again, this is where, you know, long ago now I was all about 200% renewables because just literally it is a thing that makes people think, what do you mean 200%? It's because this is an opportunity for us. We've never been able to have more energy than we need, until you think about it and go Actually, that's all we do. Export is energy. Well, that's all we export. But when I talk about fossil fuels, we are exporting energy. All we're saying is we were evolved that to export a different type of energy. That's an opportunity for us and we have just such an amazing opportunity, not just resources, you've probably had lots of people in the last two days. He's talking about sun and wind and how it could power the entire world five times over from Australia, etc. That's all totally true. We also have the opportunity in the finance community, in the talent we have here. If you think about anybody that's built large scale infrastructure projects, I care if you're building a coal mine, or a large energy export project of a different kind, you need large scale project management, you need project finance, you need engineering, you need electricians, you need all sorts of different bits and people to make this. We have all that expertise in Australia. And we have the resources and the talent. And we need to get people back to work in massive numbers. We're talking about skating where the puck is going to be the single greatest frustration at the moment is that we don't see this as an opportunity and economic opportunity that we should be embracing, which is like never before five years ago, it wasn't true, right? We didn't have the cost models and stuff that we do today.

Dan Ilic 30:54

that that would be scanning with the puppies. I think, you know, the the notion of 200% renewables or 500% renewables totally blows my mind. It's like, yeah, of course, like, it totally makes sense. And it really annoys me when you when we hearing at the moment, particularly with hydrogen that came out in the Technology Roadmap, and how hydrogens can be made with gas, brown hydrogen, and there's like, what do you like? What are you doing when we've got all this other energy we could use to make hydrogen and we've got the water, we are good by water. We are good by the resources that we need. We like we're good by Sun and water, like good. We think good. Dory anyway. So anyway, I get really annoyed when I hear these, you know, myopic ideas that kind of lock us into into fossil fuels when it's so obvious that that we could execute on something far more innovative.

Mike Cannon-Brookes 31:45

I should say that we have a sundrenched land with boundless less planes that a windswept? Yeah, well, you can, you can keep going down lots of poetry and be like, we literally want this a long time ago.

Dan Ilic 31:57

Do that someone will write it, write it down and put it in Comic Sans and email to their uncle. And it'll be used as irrefutable evidence against climate change. So I'll share for you who is someone who is kind of globally minded yourself, like what what would you like to see Australia take to Glasgow next year in terms of in terms of plan?

Osher Gunsberg 32:18

Um, look, I think the most important thing as as extraordinarily humongous as the the investment that Mike is working on with his wife, and you know, the other people that we've heard over the last two days, we really are going to have to make our country safe for foreign capital, in the in long term policy, we really going to have to make it safe, because if we're gonna get out of this, we are absolutely 100% going to need foreign investment, we're going to need investors to feel safe, and that their investments will be good for 2030 more years here in Australia. And that's what that's what's gonna have to happen. When I first went overseas to study a couple years ago. Anyone that's talked to a Dutch person will understand the directness. Hi, I'm from Australia. Oh, really? What's going on with your country? Why does the carbon tax Why? Why do you still dig up so much coal, and I found myself like having to apologise to this classroom for the people. We are at enormous risk of being overlooked by the international community and the international investment community. I think the days of Australia being like, oh, that kind of scruffy larrikin that gets a roof over here and a pat on the back and off you go, you know, the little schoolboy that's gone over, if we're not clever, we're just gonna get left out of the opportunity, the extraordinary global opportunity that's ahead of us. And countries with sun and wind and bandwidth plans to stay will they'll be the ones that that get the cake and we will be sitting around going. Alright, I guess it is yes. Pacific bass. Oh, yeah.

Dan Ilic 33:47

It I mean, it is so strange seeing how Bacary out a whole bunch of things. Mike, you you have been having conversations with a lot of politic politicians. The Liberal government is all of a sudden becoming a market interventionist, you know, with what they do with guests, but out of chat with us, as well as energy minister Matt Cain on my podcast a few weeks ago, and he actually said very few, very few liberals are actually into fossil fuels. If that's the case, why do we have the situation today where the federal government is really backing fossil fuels, but the states and territories are leading the charge in renewables? That what is that? What does that disconnect between the states and the federal, federal politicians?

Unknown Speaker 34:27

How many hours? Do you have the answer that I

Dan Ilic 34:28

think we've only got 25 minutes. But

Mike Cannon-Brookes 34:31

look, look, I think for sure the states are taking charge, which is awesome. You could argue to be to be charitable. It's one of the positives of the way that our Federation is constructed, that we do have different groups that can kind of move forward in different ways. I think obviously mats doing a great job in New South Wales. We have a lot of other states are doing an amazing job. I would remind people that the AC T is 100% renewable now. And that's where the parliamentarians federally sit in Parliament House. So that always makes me Ah, feel good that we have one of the

Dan Ilic 35:04

few only I'm sad. Often houses in the world, in fact markets, the wind from all those politicians that gets those windmills going. So

Osher Gunsberg 35:12

thank you, Dan. Thank you. You can see yourself as my

Dan Ilic 35:14

Yeah, I could write for The Daily Telegraph with puns like that.

Mike Cannon-Brookes 35:19

Look, I think it's it's a it's a complex issue, right. The federal issue obviously involves lots of different complexities that the state driven issues don't. Right. But we have to, we have to work this out. And, again, we have netzero commitments, I believe in every state and territory now, but not federally. So there's a lot of argument about whether it matters federally, does it actually matter? And the answer is, I think it still does matter. But it doesn't matter as much as it would have done if we didn't have one. Right. So I do think we are getting that moving in the right direction. There are certain things that are federally controlled, that we need to move forward on and and to be fair to them they've done put the gas stuff aside for a second. The renewable any energy infrastructure investments, they're making transmission was there great. Like we totally need those and they have to be legit federally done. They announced, you know, for Star, the south and other things that they are federally. Finally, you and I either took too long. Okay, great. wherever we are, we're gonna move forward. framework for offshore wind and offshore other things. Again, we have massive offshore resources, price of offshore has converged to basically the same as price of onshore now. So they are moving in the right direction. Would we like them to move faster? Sure. Does it help to talk and keep pushing and keep moving? Yes, I think it really does. I think the

you know, what, great state and federal we need by

Dan Ilic 36:52

Yeah, I understand that. But I mean, with all this the state with the state territories with the states and territories or committing to net zero by 2050. It shouldn't be hard for the federal government government said, yeah, we are going to commit to net zero by 2050. Because the states are doing it. So we're going to absolutely do it. And it's it's it's like pure leadership play. And it doesn't it doesn't dog whistle to fossil fuel industries or their bass or anything like that. But having a flag in the ground, everyone can run towards it. And coal is still going to be mined, there's gases still going to be pumped. But it's a federal signpost that says yeah, we're we are also good actors in the world. Like it feels like this. It's an opportunity completely missed. And it sends the wrong signal to our neighbours and other people where you know, other people in the world we have to deal with.

Mike Cannon-Brookes 37:39

Absolutely don't I mean, don't get me wrong in Madrid, we were an international prime. Right, three countries blow up those towards us, Saudi Arabia and Russia. And that not a club that you generally want to be a member of when it comes to basically what what you're doing international diplomacy, etc. Right? Why did we do that over Kyoto credits? Right, like for all the bullshit you want to put around it, that is the literally the reason that we did that. Europeans were trying to make the credits that we're trying to apply for which by the way, should never have been, they were not written into the agreement. It's total bullshit. I forget. It was on was it on q&a, someone else said, it's like, going to your second marriage and saying, Oh, I did a lot of dishes in the first one. In the second marriage, I was like, that is the best. That's why we need crave storytellers like Oscar. And that was like, the explanation. That is literally what we're trying to say is it's a different accounting system in Paris and Canada, like they're completely different. Yeah, but we were not good internationally. How many years? Can you turn off and be not good internationally, and then ask for other things, and we need strategic international diplomacy in our region. We want to be a world leading group. We have to have that. Yeah. We had shut up in Glasgow, and that should have been right now. Without anything, we would have been locked out of the room. I

Dan Ilic 38:59

Ah, yeah, I get a feeling I get. I get I get the feeling we're still gonna be left at the room with this technology roadmap, but I don't know if that'll change between now then.

Mike Cannon-Brookes 39:08

I'll show up with just the Technology Roadmap in Glasgow in 12 months time and expect to have any respect on the international community when it comes to climate and emissions.

Yeah. We can Trump adjust that

Dan Ilic 39:22

will lose all that power. Again, I'll shut in the space leadership is hard. And especially in you know, the climate space. Everyone has the ability to unlock their own personal power to affect change. You're a solo operator, though, but but you have enormous power in reaching audiences. Can you kind of paint us a picture of how you use your personal power to try and affect change in the positive ways in space?

Osher Gunsberg 39:45

I'm just another middle aged white guy in the public eye talking about something that you know he feels is a you know, compassionate thing. Yeah.

Dan Ilic 39:53

As many people have pointed out to me on twitter at this is what this panel is Yes,

Osher Gunsberg 39:58

yeah. The three whitest dudes in the room. Look, I've been in one way or another in the corner of people's television, like in the corner of people's living rooms for the past 21 years or so. So, I that buys me about an extra four seconds of your attention, you know? Because I that's that guy. Oh, yeah, the thing, what's he talking about? That gives me about an extra four seconds and a lot can happen in that four seconds, a lot can happen as far as getting people to consider, there might actually be something going on here, you may actually have a lot more power than you then you realise. And, and just try to I guess, you know, model through. I mean, I've had a lot of success on my podcast through having conversations about like, just modelling what a conversation about mental health can look like. And that has been extraordinarily helpful to a lot of people, and has been quite profound as far as effecting change. Similarly, I tried to have conversations on my on my podcast that actually sound like two adults discussing this challenge and the incredible opportunities because I think as a nation, we plant like I'm just trying to fill a gaping, aching chasm of getting the feeling like as an adult in the room that causes extraordinary anxiety in the community. We know that our government believes in science, that's how we crushed the curve on COVID. All right, we know that they're willing to spend money on things that mean something to them, they just don't want to spend money on this. We know they're not people who don't believe in graphs. There are graphs. There's current, there's there's curves, there's curves, there's things there's capacity of hospital capacity that we're all very aware of shiners they know how to read a graph. So here's a similar graph, different colours, similar capacity for sustaining life. So don't tell us you don't know what it's about. I think it's just the feeling that there's, you know, there's this kind of feeling of dread within a community that, that mom and dad just too busy arguing in the front seat, and I don't know where we're driving the kids in the back of losing their mind, we as a nation, we just want to know that mum and dad have got this, we want to know that the adults in the room are taking charge, and we'll be cool, we'll be alright. That's all we need. And we'll be fine. All right, we'll get on with doing our jobs, you get on with doing yours. And I think through that through my ability to have a conversation and a rational conversation in public on Well, this is what it sounds like to talk about the reality, to discuss the grief of what we're losing what we will lose what we cannot ever get back. And then to talk about the opportunity, extraordinary chance we have right now to rebuild that country, for our children, for our grandchildren. It's astonishing, that we don't have these conversations on a wider level and have

Dan Ilic 42:26

Can you tell us what your audience is feeling when you have these conversations? What kind of feedback you get, particularly on your climate conversations? What like, what are they saying to you?

Osher Gunsberg 42:34

I think it's a two handed thing, because I don't think you can fully appreciate, you know, the way I try to talk about it, Dan, it's I think that it's not like we don't have the ability to discuss this, we have all the ability to handle the psychology behind inaction on climate already. Okay, it is the same denial. And I can speak to this from my own experience as someone who's been sober 10 and a half years, it's the same denial that you have around alcoholism on the signs, and all you have to anything you're addicted to the amount of justification, the amount of manipulation, the amount of lying, the amount of I don't know should be right should be right? The amount of constantly using this thing that you know, is ultimately going to kill you. But you're so terrified of change, and you just can't picture any other way you keep doing it. That is that's the type of alcohol gambling, sex, whatever. Here we are, folks, here we are. But the thing about being addicted is it's a life of restriction. When you're addicted to anything, things just get smaller and smaller and smaller. Once you find your way into sobriety from that addiction, once you become recovered from that addiction, the opportunities just explode. All right. And I've seen this time and time and time again, the same psychological things that we have within our brains, that we've used to find help for people who are addicted to substances we can use to help people find out of this situation.

Dan Ilic 43:51

I totally agree with you there. Like just even having a summit like this is really important by having people who are knowledgeable and understand what the future could look like to be able to paint what that future looks like, can unlock a whole bunch of hoping everyday people like you, like you wouldn't make sorry, might not count counting you like an everyday person because you're in this industry. But like, you know, regular Joe's to kind of think big about what the future could look like. Mike listening to this for you, who has someone who has put climate at the centre of their business and their businesses, and someone who has really put their money where their mouth is, what should other businesses do? Like what's what's a great way a great simple way to get the ball ball rolling, if you if you run teams or you you run businesses, what's the great way to kind of get the ball rolling in this space to really start applying pressure to change the way they do things.

Mike Cannon-Brookes 44:46

Um, probably depends on which sort of business you're running, I suppose for large businesses, I think, and again, this is what for me it comes down to economics. I I'm a deep believer. I should say that Start that the money like that drives things. Economics drives things like economics is a study of human behaviour. Actually, it's not a study of money, right? It's about utility. And you know, when you get into supply, demand and etc, we have rational actors and game theory and everything else, right? The best way to solve this problem, if you ask me is solving the economics. And what's frustrating is we've gotten to the point that the economics is favourable. So just like if you have a house in Australia, and you're not one of the 3 million households that has panels on the roof, and you own that house, I realise if you're insisting upon building, we've got to solve those problems separately. Putting panels on will save you man, like, it's almost like, there's enough financing options out there to get those panels for free onto your roof, that you're just kind of giving away money by not having them on your roof, right, that's an economic problem that's in a good spot, not quite as batteries, but we will get there, right? If you're running a business, for some reason, people go to the business and don't think the same way. Right. One of the things I've done a lot of work with Ari 100, which is a great group trying to drive globally started by IKEA and Microsoft and Lego and others. Atlassian was one of the first members in Australia. And now we've got, I think all of the big banks and a whole bunch of other great members, john D, runs out has done a fantastic job driving large scale corporates to join. The biggest reason that convinces him to join is they will save money for their business, a business will run cheaper, right? And if you want to talk to business and get them to move, that's often the best way to do it. Right? is like, hey, what if you build next he was $8, not $10. Like, Hey, I'm interested, now I'm listening. He so I do think people's businesses can benefit from this in a financial way, right. And you can feel good while doing it. There's nothing wrong with feeling good about what you're doing. But the same problem for the the nation of Australia in terms of this could create shitloads of jobs. Oh, hang on, man. I've seen the guys into my visit. And they're not they're not doing renewables. I'm like, most of the hottest jobs being created today are in renewables. Like, we're gonna have a debate about narrow bar versus renewable energies. And in terms of jobs, the energy on when

Dan Ilic 47:09

I don't know, whoever's running Smart Energy summit sound video right now, if you could just go back and capture Mike's last 30 seconds, that'd be a great gift.

Mike Cannon-Brookes 47:18

It is the frustration. But you should take that home your business, I guess is what I'm saying is the economics of what we have in terms of today's technology is really good for your business, for your household, and for the nation of Australia because of the resources we have. And that is what the story that we need to keep telling. And it takes people a long time to understand that that is the story. And understand that that story will be better every single year. But it's already positive economics for the country. The business there. So

Dan Ilic 47:51

is that kind of what you fundamentally believe that others don't believe Mike, what's is that the disconnect?

Mike Cannon-Brookes 47:58

Yes, I believe it's a finance and economics problem. That's the best way to solve it. There's probably one thing I fundamentally believe that often others don't believe how to speak for everybody else. It's a bit like for me, it's like recycling, right? If I tell you that you should recycle 5% of population will be the do gooders and do the right thing. Soon as I pay five cents a bottle, it's like 80% of people will recycle or something. And so financial incentives and utilities actually do make a big sense in the economic world. So I do think it's a finance problem, we should remember that almost all almost all renewable technologies are large capital low input, if not zero input. What that means is all the money is spent upfront. And you know, you put panels on your roof cost you five to 10, grand, and then it's free after that you can get up with a shimmy and walk them every so often if you want to. So the 20 years are free. That's what financing does. Financing loans, etc, is about how do we make it so that you can get those panels cheaper, quicker, it's like a credit card or a mortgage. Right? These are exactly the same devices, we invented the mortgage in the Depression of the 1930s, to help people buy houses. And we said, You know what, you can live in that house for 30 years, we're gonna work out the financing equation, you're gonna pay twice the price of the house, or whatever it is over the time, but you're gonna like having a house. So this is really good. We invented the mortgage. We're constantly trying to do financing activities for all clean technologies, because the generally zero input cost, large scale capex up front, where finance is perfect. The second thing that I think I believe in is I believe in learning rights of modular technologies. deeply, deeply, deeply as a technologist. This is super important, and I believe far too few people understand this.

Dan Ilic 49:37

What is this elaborate on this? I don't know what you're talking about.

Mike Cannon-Brookes 49:41

It's all the panels batteries.

Wind turbines. These are modular technologies, right? By that I mean, if I have one panel or a million panels, I just make more of the same thing. Right? It's why chips get cheaper is because we make slightly better chips and we make a bigger factories that make more chips right naturally. A lot of That ends up being more important, right? More of the reduction of the cost of a solar panel now is coming from manufacturing scale. And installation costs then from bit asides and building better panels. But these are modular technologies, they will always win once they reach the point of scale that begets the learning rate, which makes them cheaper, which means that they get more scale, which means that they get more money, right? If you're in technology, we've seen this in chips. We've seen it in cameras, the camera in your mobile phone in 10 years, improved quality per pixels per dollar a thousandfold. Right, so we got either 1000 times cheaper, or it got 100 times cheaper and 10 times more powerful or some combination, right? This is the way that technology works when that technology is modular. Lots of technologies are not modular, and that is unfortunate. So those learning rates do not apply to everything, but they do apply to solar batteries, etc. And they are like Moore's law and chips Swanson's law and solo. These laws aren't laws of physics, but they will happen next year, I've had discussions with politicians where I say Do you realise that batteries have gotten like 10 times cheaper or three times longer lasting or twice as light, or any of these sort of facts? Now I gave it you don't know that will happen next year. And I'm like, ah, but I do. I can't tell you in the next three months. But I can tell you if I look 234 years that will absolutely continue.

Dan Ilic 51:25

Like Don't take this the wrong way. But with with your hair and stuff, it looks into your hoodie, you could be like a wizard of technology.

Mike Cannon-Brookes 51:33

But this is like if we understood this, again, we would never build any more fossil technologies at large scale, because 30 years from now, it won't make sense, right? 10 years from now what makes sense. And we kind of know that based on today. But we seem to we struggle with that future pricing equation. A lot. The learning rate of modular technologies has to be understood, as has the financing question

Dan Ilic 52:01

asked, what about the scalability of podcasts? Are there enough a podcast and to reach enough people to convince them to jump on board this clean energy train?

Osher Gunsberg 52:09

I don't know how many middle aged white men are there? Because we all need a podcast? Look, honestly, I'm just just just just vibing on Mike cannon Brookes extraordinary, like Alan Malala is kind of ability to restructure and recreate our, you know, this problem and looking at it like an engineering problem, I really have to agree with what Mark was talking about there. As heartbreaking as it is, and you're here on this resume, because you have seen the graphs and you know what's going to happen. So you are here from an emotional reason, probably all right. There's very few people here from a financial reason, once it becomes a financial reason, this will change overnight. And I've got to acknowledge at how much it sucks to wait for that economic reason to become viable. But unfortunately, that is the way of the world. And we just have to wait. But it will absolutely. Mark's already talking about these tipping points where things the cleaner, greener option is the cheaper, scalable, more replicable option. But we just have to wait for that. Which is really, really horrible if you're an endangered species. But that's you know, that's that's the truth. That's where

Mike Cannon-Brookes 53:12

we've already got that point. It's coming. Right? Like we've already gotten on a number we should we all need to stop saying it's coming. It's here. It is here today. Yeah, right in a lot of technology. And we need to say that that we've reached that point. We are beyond that point. When people talk about the cheapest source of new power generation being renewables, they're telling the truth, but they're also a couple years late. And so as a community or whatever, we need to stop saying these things are coming in the future. These both will create jobs and cheaper energy. And this is like today's world, not Tomorrow's World one Exactly. To get thrown around is fun. I'm not saying it's wrong on the fly. But why politicians is Yeah, we need some more technology, like in five years or 10 years or 20 years. We'll get there. I'm like we're fucking there right now. Yeah, we need to keep saying that. I can't stress that enough.

Osher Gunsberg 53:58

I'm agreeing. I'm agreeing with you market just yet. Which is like the I'm what I'm doing is I'm agreeing saying like the idea of pushing people to understand that the financial decision is the right decision right now. It's the emotional decision. That's the thing that people reacted, that's they will go, Oh, no, no, no sort of thing on Facebook. If it's an emotional decision, people want to shut it down and reject it. But if it's financial decision, people go, hang on what I can save money. And then that's the way that's the way and so to answer your question, Dan, I don't know how many podcasts but definitely conversations and it's everyday conversations. And it's literally is when someone says, gee, it's a nice day today. Yeah, it is. It's 30 degrees. It's the fourth of September shouldn't be 30 degrees.

Dan Ilic 54:37

question here from Christine mill. Mike. Have you considered the batteries on on the mainland? will eclipse pumped hydro storage based in Tasmania, and we'll leave the lettuce stranded.

Mike Cannon-Brookes 54:50

Ah, look, that's a deep nuance energy question. I don't do my Tasmania and I believe that leaves a lot of stranded because there it's already built. so pumped hydro has a 50 year lifetime. And if you've already kind of paid off the capex, then you should be okay with that. pumped hydro is a good example of a non modular technology. Every time you build pumped hydro, largely, the pumps are modular. But the engineering required to work out this piece of water, that bit of water, the pipes, the pumps, the the the angles, like it's an engineering project engineering projects are not very scalable. I can find any field and roll out solar panels with, you know, very, very quickly. So, yes, they will. I think one of the big things for Australia is probably about snowy Hydro and snowy hydro two, and specifically, whether that's a good investment or a bad investment. I generally fall down that that's a good investment, not a great investment. It is not the best thing we could have done with that amount of money. But it's not a terrible thing to do with the money. Right. From the point of view of storage. Will batteries be cheaper by the time that is ready? That is a great question.

Dan Ilic 55:57

Yeah, another question about the New South Wales government, which today has announced the neraby the narrabri gas project is going ahead, Mike, what are your thoughts on that project? Does it have a chance of being found?

Mike Cannon-Brookes 56:09

You're gonna get a shitload of hot water here? Um,

firstly, I think it was the independent planning commission that said they could go forward from what I understand not the New South Wales, I'm not sure how the relationship between those two To be fair, but I'm not sure if it was New South Wales Government stamp that I can I can ethically disagree with that. At some level, I have to hope that they've all done their correct work on planning and everything else and have the right controls. I don't know if the project will go forward from a financing perspective. If I was Santos, and looking at the finances, I would think that would be a struggle to get up and running. You know, you need to be betting on $1 A Giga Joule gas a long time in the future for that to all make sense. Look, if they're going to put private capital and we've done the environmental concerns, that's fine. I don't have to agree with it personally, right. But at some level, you can't just always be tearing down the structures that we have that said, Do I think it's necessary? We're gonna bring Australia's power prices down? Absolutely not like let's, I'm very clear with gas. Give me the word off the gas.

Dan Ilic 57:13

And then let's separate all these concepts because the blurring of the stories gets very confusing, like I said, on q&a. There's the extraction, there's the transport, there's the price is a

Mike Cannon-Brookes 57:24

totally different things and totally different timescales. Right, if you're talking about the next three to five years, and beyond any of that three or five years, right, they'll probably still be debating various concerns about groundwater and salt and all absolutely valid things to be debating three years from now,

Dan Ilic 57:41

do you get you get phone calls from the guest lobby? Mike, do you get phone calls saying Hey, Mike, let's turn maitain into us thing get on our side? I just wanted to say that jack, another question from Blair heavy

Mike Cannon-Brookes 57:52

told me that we've got call in the coalition and I'm gonna tell you there's also lithium ion

Unknown Speaker 57:58

high

Mike Cannon-Brookes 58:01

in there, right, we've just got to flip it from one to the other.

Dan Ilic 58:03

Blair asks my cow can the current government refuse to even see the economic benefits and pick a polluting now done energy source such as gas when it so clearly does not make financial sense? So like, what what is that? What decision Do you think in your mind that they've made?

Mike Cannon-Brookes 58:22

Look, this is where a politician has very different job than that's how our society works, right? I understand that they are trying at some level to navigate themselves away from coal and get two other things right. And and the way they did the transition fuel is also a transitionary policy platform of fossil fuels that gets you kind of away without any elegant this dismount. I don't think we need that dismount. Right, but you might need it. If you're trying to get elected, that's totally different. We don't need it from an energy point of view. We don't need it from a country point of view. We don't need it from an economic point of view. However, they are, we should give them credit. Again, sometimes people like to make these things black and white. And the answer is always a bit of grey, we should give him credit. The largest announcement made two weeks ago was a couple of hundred million bucks for renewable and energy infrastructure, transmission infrastructure. That was the largest dollar commitment. The largest job commitment was the same thing. So sometimes the announcement it's important gets buried in the, you know, the other stuff. Secondly, I think it's really important and what I would like to keep repeating, there was an implicit, we're moving to 100% renewables. In those announcements. This is the first time the government has said that on the other side, we had Alba's saying we're going to be renewable energy superpower. Let's focus on the long arc of time. That was a stratospheric shift from our current government to implicitly say whether they said we're moving to hydrogen, you definitely need gas. Let's spend a lot of time talking about gas. Wait a second. Let's go back to what you just said. Up front. You admitted we're moving on grid to 100% renewables and beyond. That's a big step. I get why you didn't like that the headline, even though I would make that the headline, and you can argue it's took too long. Doesn't matter. Yeah, we're gonna get there.

Dan Ilic 1:00:09

Is it gonna be like the NBN? Like it? They'll say that in 50 years time, they'll be like, Oh, you know what we were wrong back then we're actually actually gonna really go

Mike Cannon-Brookes 1:00:17

down again. Again, one of the reasons we're trying to keep them honest, I suppose about this Ladell replacement thing, and they've already come down from 1000 megawatt hours, which by the way, is a classic. If you're a politician, You make it sound bigger. You can't make it one gigawatt.

Unknown Speaker 1:00:29

What are they? What are they 1000 megawatts because

Mike Cannon-Brookes 1:00:31

it sounds bigger. I'm like, well, let's make it a million kilowatt plant. It's a billion watts. I don't understand the numbers. But anyway, let's just say it's already gone from 1000 megawatts to 250. Right? Wow. I put my money that never gets built.

Dan Ilic 1:00:44

I think it was seven times a court who said that he read a tweet from his last week that a 250 megawatt plant was run by 13. People think of all the job it will create.

Mike Cannon-Brookes 1:00:55

Hundred 50 megawatt plant. We instal that much residential solar every month in this country. Wow. 250 megawatts a month. Right. So let's go forward three and a quarter years. That's 10 gigawatts of residential solar installed without any growth whatsoever. If it flatlines from here, and it's growing like this. So if it flatlines, we'll get 10 gigawatts, two or 50 megawatts as much as people want to say it's big, it's fucking tiny. Right? It's a tiny, tiny, tiny amount of our grid, it won't get built, unless the government forces it in with subsidies. And if they do, tell us how much the subsidy is or how much the investment is, and I'll give you 345 better options. straightaway.

Dan Ilic 1:01:35

They were sending something really telling I think on insiders when spezia was interviewing skybow talking about not committing to the net, net zero 50. And scomo was like oh, yeah, no, we'll get in it serious 50 by the end of the century,

Unknown Speaker 1:01:49

it's like God, it's so frustrating.

Dan Ilic 1:01:50

And I think kitaen Joshi wrote a great piece saying, well, by the government's own admission, their emissions will get to net zero by 2300. I don't think I don't think that's a don't think we have a long arc of time, is what is what particular Blair's replied to me saying we don't have a long arc of time as well. I don't think we have that long arc of time to actually make these changes. How can we accelerate that? Or how can we put pressure on as, as voters to get our politicians to accelerate those changes to push for net zero 50 or net zero by 30? In the process,

Osher Gunsberg 1:02:24

it's got to be where you spend your money, Dan, we vote every three years or whatever down the state schools, but we vote every single day where we spend our dollars. I think there was a like a 2014 study out of Princeton that show that public protest often has a like a near zero impact on on government policy. What makes people stand up is where people are suddenly not spending their money. That's where decisions get made. And we have that choice. As a nation, we have the choice of we all decided to go like one day a week without buying petrol. People would lose their minds as a whole nation when when that's it. We're not buying petrol for a week, because when upset about the way the fuel lobbies done, it would be changed overnight. All right, we have that power, we absolutely have that power. It's just in the organisation. And it's where you spend your money. As Mark was saying, if you start if the rooftop solar keeps going in that direction. There's no way that the industry won't adjust to that. But that's people making a decision on the bottom line of their household budget, hundred percent. And that's where we have the ability to affect change every single day. You are not powerless. Every dollar you spend is a vote.

Dan Ilic 1:03:29

Thanks, Ayesha. That was brilliant. I think we're out of time. So big thanks to Mike and and Brooks and Asha Gunzburg. It's been a real privilege talking with you and yelling with you about climate change and energy transitions. I had a real wonderful time. And really, this is a highlight of my year so far. And let's face it, it's 2020. So low standards, but still pretty good stuff I have to say.

Osher Gunsberg 1:03:51

Thanks, Dan. Thanks, Mike.

Dan Ilic 1:03:52

Thanks, guys. Thanks a lot, everyone.

Unknown Speaker 1:03:56

GM, great, a small podcast

Osher Gunsberg 1:03:58

of our generation. Well in what did you think of that?

Linh Do 1:04:00

That was great. I was surprised by how entertained I was. I mean, it makes sense. You had one of Australia's most famous TV people, although that said, given given that Asha did name dropping university, I feel I need to name dropping university as well. So I'm going to name drop Harvard. So there's a Harvard academic called Erica Genworth, who actually believes civil disobedience is not only the moral choice that we have for combating climate change or any sort of other social issue, but it's one of the most powerful ways of shaping world politics. So her research, one of the things I've geeked out on, looks at hundreds of campaigns over the last century, and it's found that it's 3.5% of the population engaged in a social issue. It has never failed to bring about political change. So yes, it's important where you spend your money for sure. But actually, that's really important in Australia, what what does that look like? That looks like 900,000 people actively engaging. So you know, last year school strike alone, we had 300,000 people attend and you know, there were many people who couldn't make it. myself included, I have the flu. As you know, even pre carpet, I knew it wasn't good for me to go and spread my germs. But we look at some of the populations around the world that you know, have taken measurable action on climate change. And what do you know, 3.5% of a population has engaged so cambre, which is you know, as mentioned, 100% renewable energy paired with now. They had over 3.5% of their population go to the climate marches last year. The same is the case in New Zealand as well and a bunch of other places around the world. So, dear listeners, never forget political action is still important. But other than that great interview.

Dan Ilic 1:05:37

Lynn, can we get Erica chin was on the show.

Linh Do 1:05:40

That would be amazing. I don't think she's a billionaire. And I don't think she's very famous on TV. But I think she has like some phenomenal thoughts around. Actually we can do more than just far and we can do more than just spend our money, how we show up and how we use our voices. I think Matt is just as much

Dan Ilic 1:05:57

Big thanks to rode mics Bertha foundation go neutral, Jacob round on the tepanyaki timeline. Also Big thanks to the Smart Energy Council for letting me publish this audio from this session here. irrational fear is back in two weeks, we're having a little bit of a break because we've been so flat out with Nina ayama, and Gretel a Jackson and the week after that with Zoe combs, ma and Concetta Cristo. And we'll be back with the greatest moral podcast of our generation in November, where we chat with YesI moseby. And Sophie marjanovic, who are organising a gigantic campaign for the Torres Strait, to take the Australian Government to the UN to fight them on their lack of climate action. It's a fascinating chat. You'll be in tears. I've just started editing it now. It's, it's really great.

Linh Do 1:06:39

I can't wait to listen to that, given our track record, I would think that they have a really good chance of winning. And there's so many cases again, around the world of people taking the government's to action. So got on the crew up north.

Dan Ilic 1:06:52

One of the interesting things about that chat I've had with those folks is that Sophie was saying that it doesn't matter if the UN comes down on the side of the Taurus, right? And Australia does nothing. It's often just a preset and like setting that precedent will allow other populations to take their countries to court and get the same result. And then those countries can take action. So even if we do if I call that something special we can give to the rest of the world.

Linh Do 1:07:14

Great. It's the least we can do given we won't even sign a biodiversity pledge.

Dan Ilic 1:07:18

Thanks for listening to irrational fears greatest moral podcast of our generation. Until next time, there's always something to be scared of. Bye

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

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A real privilege to have this kind of line up —

The Dollop’s Dave Anthony.

The Bichuation Room’s Francesca Fiorentini

and former White House Director of Communication Anthony Scaramucci.

And Lewis Hobba and Dan Ilic.

We rip into this week's presidential debate and talk with former White House Director of Communication Anthony Scaramucci on how and why Republicans are campaigning to get Donald Trump out of office.

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Big thanks to The Bertha Foundation, our Patreon Supporters and RODE Mics. Jacob Round, and David Bloustien.

Dan Ilic 0:00

Good morning, Louis.

Lewis Hobba 0:01

Morning Daniel. I so

Dan Ilic 0:02

early in the morning for us. We don't ever do this at this time in the morning, but it's for a special occasion only.

Lewis Hobba 0:07

Yeah, it was a debate that was worthy of this kind of early rise.

Dan Ilic 0:14

And let's quickly wrap up that Patreon supporters, Fiona Parmenter, Phil Willis, Lizette, Sal, kovitch, Zen thoria West, have all chipped in the Patreon this week. Also a big special mention to Jason smail, who's taken up our top level Patreon subscription. He's paying 100 bucks a month for irrational fears. So thank you. He's one of the top of the tech guys in Silicon Valley. We travelled once to a marathon in bend in Oregon, to watch one of our friends do a marathon.

Lewis Hobba 0:43

I was waiting for the for the end of that I'm like, wait, wait, wait, you did a marathon

Dan Ilic 0:48

to watch to watch someone do that or thought. This means we're up to 91% of covering on cost for the podcast or pretty much what Trump has paid in taxes in 2017. So jump onto patreon.com forward slash irrational fear to support the show. Another way to support irrational fear is to offset your carbon emissions from your car with go neutral for every $90 you could go neutral will buy 3.5 tonnes of carbon offsets, which is about a yearly emissions for a car and five bucks of that comes to us to go neutral. Click on the link in the show notes. I'm recording my end of irrational fear on gadigal land in the Euro nation. sovereignty was never ceded. We need a treaty. Let's start the show.

Unknown Speaker 1:24

A Russian mafia contains naughty words like bricks. Can bro.

Unknown Speaker 1:30

And come

Unknown Speaker 1:31

and section 40 a rational fear recommended listening by immature audience

Dan Ilic 1:37

tonight after 232 seasons 2020 will be the final season of America it'll be replaced with reruns of Germany before it got good. And after the first presidential debate, the phrase come to Australia began trending on Twitter, like till Americans find out that we have three Guantanamo Bay's and far right extremist proud boys respond to Trump's request to stand back and stand by by stepping forward and standing on desk to shout out Captain my captain. It's the first of October 2020 in America. It was fun while it lasted. This is irrational fear.

This is irrational fear. Thank you for joining us. I'm former Kentucky Attorney General Dan Ilic. Let's make our fee mungus for this week, if the world's got you down you can guarantee our first guest will get you down even further. He is one half of the American history podcast the dollar Dave Anthony. Thank you Dave. Is there something you can say something you could say to cheer up our listeners? No. And she's known for speaking dick jokes to power but you can see her each week in her show news broke you can hear each week on her podcast the Situation Room and you can smell her each week putting the bins out it's Francesca fiorentini.

Francesca Fiorentini 3:01

It is very true. Very true. I compost but I don't actually have a compost. So I just put it in the trash. And like someone who's just really trying to feel better about myself. You know, that's it, just so I'm gonna almost almost help the world.

Dan Ilic 3:20

That's what this podcast is all about. You're very much on Brad. And he's a man unaccustomed to being up this early. So work it is the host of Triple J. Dr. Louis harbour.

Lewis Hobba 3:29

Yeah, I don't consider this work. Dan, this is fun.

Dan Ilic 3:31

Good. Doesn't it doesn't count as work until I stopped paying you. Robert a little later on. We've got a very special interview with former White House press secretary turned anti Trump fundraiser Anthony Scaramucci. Yes, the Butch will be here he will be joining us. But first, we've got a new sponsor. It's a bit of a library. This one here we go. Get my library music. Going to the post office can be hard. There's always long lines white supremacists hanging out there to pre screen your mail and throw milk on you. And even if you do manage to post your mail in ballot who knows how long it's going to take to get to the correct precinct for counting. And those election folks are always making mistakes putting the wrong addresses on things. This election season, make your mail in voting easy with stamps.ru stamps that are you We'll send you out a book of stamps for free that look just like us postage and you can stick them all over your mail in ballot. They'll even send you the latest updated address labels to make sure that your ballot gets to the right place so that you know your vote will be counted by someone with Wagner on their breath. Head to stamps.ru today to get a free trial from now until November that stamps.ru use the offer code Biden wins to get a free ballot facts Shredder. Who else gives you a fax shredder? It faxes your ballot to an international number beginning with plus seven then transit. Mellon voting has never been more secure with stamps.ru. Well, I mean they do pay us so it's great to have their money. Okay. humungus let's talk about the debate. There have been so many moments over the last four years when Donald Trump has almost risen to meet the demands of his office. And I think we can all agree that during last night's presidential debate, Donald Trump finally became Fira. I say debate. But it was so confusing. I thought I'd tuned into the two old guys from the Muppets breaking up. To be honest, when you think about what's going on in America and the world right now, they really should have conducted the debate of resume that way. Not because of Coronavirus or anything like that. But chris wallace would have had access to a mute button. But we lay different people took different things from the debate like conservative coalition Trump supporters who and this is true, complained that Biden didn't answer any questions. I mean, they're not run. Dive, let's start with you. How you feeling about Biden, should he have answered More questions?

Dave Anthony 5:49

Oh, well, that's a tough one. There's a couple of things with Biden, first of all, it's hard to answer question when a man just keeps jabbering at you constantly. Like there's no way it's good. But also, Biden needs a lot of time to ramp into his questions, make some mistakes, correct course. stutters Dumbo, correct course. So he needs a really long, long runway, and then he gets to come up and then crash the plane and then taken off again. So it's hard for him just in general. But But he he did, I would I would give him a two out of 10.

Dan Ilic 6:25

Fred, how did you feel that the debate? I'm,

Unknown Speaker 6:29

I'm worse than I could have imagined, you know, and you don't like I'm sure the entire world wants to see someone fillet Donald Trump on the national international stage. But no one more than an American who has to live under this regime. Let's call it what it is. So it's like, it's just the biggest you get so sorry for me, you get so hard. Like you're just like, Oh, you're so ready to go. When you watch a debate. And then, you know, did I wish there were performance enhancing drugs? Because Biden could not bring it he couldn't get it? I mean, look, he's in his. It happens. You know, in your 70s I'm sure it's only natural, not judging. But it was it was really it's hard. It's always hard to watch whether it's Clinton who you know, was respectable, or Biden who tried to level with people but really couldn't. You know, as a comic, you're like, just get some zingers. Just get a couple zingers make fun of his $70,000

Unknown Speaker 7:32

expense on his hair. That's it.

Unknown Speaker 7:35

Yeah, he and also the, the makeup factor the fact that they don't like how could you? How could you sit there and know he spent 70,000 on his hair and not say what are you paying for your makeup? $5 like just hit the guy. It's so easy. It's so easy. He is a walking talking thing to mock. It would just be non stop with anybody who just had their mental mental acuteness together such

Lewis Hobba 7:58

a tough ask I I have no idea how you would prepare to debate Donald Trump because you can go low. But if you do once you get down to that sort of street fight, he's so much better. There's no one better at kicking people in the balls on the street than he is. You do have to try to like, be there. But just like he makes you fight your fight it is. It's like playing like kids sport like on the 12 soccer or something. Sometimes a really shit team will beat a really good team, just because the complete lack of organisation throws a good team off their game.

Unknown Speaker 8:32

Yeah, I would just say though, that there is a there is a kind of comedian and David Letterman is that type of comedian who in his autobiography described how they were the Funny Kids, and he was the guy who made fun of the Funny Kids. So you need that type of person who knows how to undermine everything he says, and just keep making fun of what he is and what he's doing. highlight what he's doing and and make it seem really stupid, as opposed to just those direct hits. You take what he's saying, and you throw it back at him.

Lewis Hobba 9:06

Let's dive up to Is he

Unknown Speaker 9:11

coming? No.

Lewis Hobba 9:13

no introduction. Made the president Dave Letterman

Dan Ilic 9:17

great. What we need is another white 70 year old guy

Unknown Speaker 9:21

in the room together, maybe they can do this job.

Dan Ilic 9:25

I'll form some sort of Voltron with the rector.

Unknown Speaker 9:31

I think Al Franken would have been the perfect sort of human being to run against him if he wasn't latch. You know, that's a drop. Like that type of that type of guy.

Dan Ilic 9:41

It didn't stop Trump did it?

Unknown Speaker 9:44

It didn't. It didn't. I mean, it's hard.

Dan Ilic 9:46

It's kind of trumpian logic to kind of say someone will do it better but I it during the entire debate. I just couldn't help but think what if Warren was up there, I really felt like she would have been an incredible attack dog and would have been on the front foot and would have smiled at him. And outpaced him every step of the way.

Unknown Speaker 10:03

Yeah, I think Bernie Sanders, same thing, but more on policy, which is not really what you need, you really do need sort of style, and you need to shut him up. And I definitely think you know, Warren in her attack, even on Bernie, which came out of left field, yeah, very dinero star Gary and in my opinion, I was like, you know, good, fine. Like she could have definitely handled that. The one thing that it said about Biden, God, if there is a silver lining, it's that he actually does Listen, like one He's, uh, he, you know, cognitively, he might be, you know, slightly a little bit less sharp than he should be. But his hearings great. And if that's any sign for how he might govern, hey, that's pretty good. If we can ever get over the other side, you know, like, he hears things, he hears people he can listen. And he had to do all that

Lewis Hobba 10:57

hearing through the pieces that he put in. That's really

Unknown Speaker 11:01

it's such a sad thing. This year, you're saying it's good that he can hear

Lewis Hobba 11:10

your bass here? It's the equivalent of kind of going like he's just recovering from a fall.

Dan Ilic 11:18

Was there a moment for either of you that really made the moment of the debate?

Unknown Speaker 11:22

Well, you know, I'm a big climate change guy. So watching the talk about climate change really made my head just kind of snap and explode. And I wanted to really jump into the TV at first slap Trump and then slap Biden, like it was really just a,

Dan Ilic 11:34

they both weren't very good on that at all. Like, I know, it goes both ways. There Biden in the same paragraph, said, Doug, well, the green New Deal, the green new deal will pay for itself. And then he backed it up saying, Oh, I don't back the green new deal at all he got, he got really flustered. He was like selling something, and then immediately discounting it in the same breath. It was pretty astounding. Emily Atkins from the hated newsletter, right? The climate change section was the only section that Trump didn't interrupt because he didn't know what to say, because he doesn't know shit. And nothing particularly more when they started talking about fuel economy standards as a way to make the environment better. And upon that question, Biden said, Why have you relaxed fuel economy standards that are going to create more pollution from cars and trucks? And then Trump went on this one minute read? He said, Well, I've got it in front of me, I'm just gonna write it out fine. Like, well, well, well, not really, because what's happening is the car is much less expensive, and it's much safer car and you talk it about a tiny difference. And then what would happen because of the cost of the car, you would have at least doubled and triple the number of cars purchased. We have the old slugs out there that are 1012 years old, if you did that the car would be safer, it will be much cheaper by 30 $500. Nothing about climate change or emissions. Yeah.

Unknown Speaker 12:48

Was there for I feel like there wasn't even a full sentence in there. He but let me just say, though, that he This is truly the logic they're trying to spin not the Trump administration has rollback 100 environmental regulations, they want us to die as quickly as possible. They want to burn the planet as quickly as possible. But I will say, buried in one of their like Transit Authority, sort of summaries on why they were rolling back the emissions. They said, it's too late. Like that's almost a quote, essentially, why we're making all this money and the planets going to hell anyway. So it was like, he knows and that was the other thing is Biden not being able to come back and being like, you think this guy gives a shit whether you live or die like you want? This this man who laughed in the face of the wildfires?

Dan Ilic 13:36

Trump talking about how people in Europe live in forest houses. That was pretty exciting. There's so many city forces. Yeah, there's like everyone in everyone in Europe lives in fucking Fern Gully. That's what that's all I took away from that.

Unknown Speaker 13:51

I was a city I was like, I worked for city city.

Lewis Hobba 13:57

This was advertised like they're all blue.

Dan Ilic 14:01

And one of the things that often comes up after debates like this is people will journalists mainly on Twitter go wow. The only winner of tonight's debate a comedians. Dave, comedians, the winners of moments like this in American politics.

Unknown Speaker 14:14

No, no. What the fuck? Listen, the reason that they say that is because of Jay Leno. Jay Leno. He everything everything went to just being dumb. And he just and he had the dancing ido judges when when OJ Simpson was on trial, it was like there was no morality. He just did whatever it took to get a laugh. And so since then, everyone's been like the comedian is gonna love this. No, the comedians actually have like morals and understanding. And so they get actually comedians are actually generally terrified of fascism, where other comedians support it, but most of us were pretty as a group against fascism. So we're not actually really thrilled about a debate in which a guy just flat out comes out as a fascist. Not not great. Not Huge fan.

Unknown Speaker 15:00

He's so hack. I mean, this is the thing this is I Trump is hack himself. He's a bad drunk, open mic comedy doing racist, sexist material that only gets a laugh because people are astounded he's even doing it. So that's like the laugh is like the asshole laugh. And I'm tired so boring. You can feel an audience sigh when you start to bring up the president because you're like, Ah, you can feel it in the room because nobody wants to be reminded the guy is his own satire. So why, you know eijiro one about a you know, the the people believe that there is a mysterious figure named q shrouded in darkness that runs a sex cult underground and is trying to topple Donald Trump or like, Yeah, man, we're living in bribes. Like that's,

Lewis Hobba 15:50

that's right there. We came here for fun. Yeah, it is. It is genius, though. And I know this is not like a new point. But that that is the hard thing that to get over and get around, which is how to deal with someone who it is boring to bring up his constant failure.

Dan Ilic 16:08

Yeah, totally. And it's also difficult to be a comedian against someone who is genuinely quite funny. Like he is he makes him read a bit. Trying to hit funny with funny is so difficult with someone that's already undercutting the office themselves. It's so it's so strange.

Lewis Hobba 16:25

And it's just very hard to me like that guy's a white supremacist when he's like, Yes, I'm a white supremacist. I get it. When there's no shame. You need shame. If it like this, without shame, there's nothing to stick to. It's just the throwing shit at shame Teflon pan.

Unknown Speaker 16:42

But I still want to scrape the bottom of that pan though. Like I think there's more to go and I look I want him out in November or excuse me, by the end of you know, he won't leave but you know what I'm saying? I in an ideal world by January

Dan Ilic 16:55

in an ideal world after a long protracted Civil War sometime 2023 you know, it'd be great

Unknown Speaker 16:59

you know, when stuff smouldering you know, I'd like to be able, but before he goes, I really do want to see what else he'll do for by being baited into it. He drank water on camera because people baited him into it because they said he couldn't. I think he wears adult diapers and I want to bait him into like, will he and won't his audience and his base just cheer and elation when they see the jockey and they you know, like the scene and 16 candles or whatever. They're holding up the underwear. What

Unknown Speaker 17:32

I was saying yesterday is when they were coming out and saying Biden is wearing an earpiece, Biden should have said you can inspect me for an earpiece. If we can expect inspect Donald for diapers and then just left Italy and that would be the whole conversation and it would end.

Unknown Speaker 17:48

Europe they live that far cities they call forest cities. They maintain their forests, they manage their forests. It's a forest city.

Unknown Speaker 17:56

Your fear is rational.

Dan Ilic 17:58

Our interview guest on this week's podcast shot to fame for 11 days when he was White House press secretary before being unceremoniously fired by Trump making him one of the most memorable x cast members from the apprentice West Wing condition ever. By day he manages $9 billion funds by not he's raising money for the Lincoln project and anti Trump political action committee that's run by Republicans. Welcome to irrational fear Anthony Scaramucci. It's good to be here. Thank you guys for having me on. Oh, it's great. You know, we've we've got Francesca fiorentini. We got Dave Anthony and Lewis hubby here to go. Just before we go what's what's the most appropriate way to address us at Anthony Mr. Scaramucci, the mooch

Unknown Speaker 18:36

all three of those names are better than some of the other names that have been used. So you can go with any of those names still be fine. Yeah.

Lewis Hobba 18:43

What's your least favourite?

Unknown Speaker 18:46

Oh, this is typical Ozzie question right. So I have to use psyops on you now and say Scaramucci. Call me anything you want. It's all good. I just think it's ironic. That's like your Southern Southern Italians and southern Australians are very similar. So I think I'm picking it up. Yeah, both

Dan Ilic 19:05

are riddled with Coronavirus.

Unknown Speaker 19:07

I think it's funny. Anthony, you're on a podcast with someone who's got more of an Italian name than you do. Francesca fiorentini. So,

Unknown Speaker 19:15

I noticed that right away Francesca even have more syllables than me, because I have a little bit of syllable envy right now.

Unknown Speaker 19:23

Italian.

Dan Ilic 19:24

Let's talk a little bit about the Lincoln project merge. How does someone who worked at the White House end up campaigning against the man in the White House?

Unknown Speaker 19:31

Well, you know, I wrote a lot about it back in 2019. But the short answer is I've changed a lot. I think the at the end of the day, one of my liberal critics, I think it was on television, they said well, you know, he was talking about Mexicans and rapists and 2015. And so in 2019, you disavowed your support. Nothing about him changed and my response was, well, maybe he didn't change but I have changed it become more psychologically minded, I become more aware of the tribulations and the stress that he's putting on other people. I become more aware that the ends, frankly, do not justify the means this whole moral equivocation about policy and cognitive dissonance. And so the you know, the answer to the question is it got to a point where it became impossible to support them anymore and maintain your personal integrity.

Dan Ilic 20:27

You didn't know that when you went into the White House?

Unknown Speaker 20:30

That's a big question. No, see, but no, you're asking the same question that my liberal friends ask. And so this is the big that kind of dilemma. 63 million people did vote for him. So I think you have to pay close attention to Why? Because everybody has a different reason for voting for him. So my reasons were, I was a lifelong Republican, I was working for Jeb Bush, he dropped out of the race. There were two people running it was Secretary Clinton, or, or then Donald Trump. And I made the mistake of going with Donald Trump because I was overlooking. And again, I don't justify this only now you do is apologise for it, I made the mistake of overlooking some of his moral shortcomings and some of his verbal rhetoric up because I thought it was the better of two choices. So I have to own that mistake. You know, I'm not one of these guys, that's going to sit here and try to defend it. All I can do is apologise for it. And so when you say that, I didn't know that the answer is yes, I did know that. But you're down to two choices. Imagine all of us are on the publicly traded Board of a company. And you're hiring two people, and the philosophical things that you've been with your whole career. I'm a lifelong republican i my first vote was for ronald reagan in 1984. And so I went with, that's where you went wrong? And that was a mistake. What's that?

Unknown Speaker 21:50

I said, that's where you went wrong foot in the first place?

Unknown Speaker 21:53

Yeah, well, listen, I mean, you know, there's a lot wrong with the Republican Party. So there's no question about that. I think that the republican party now, whatever you thought of it under Ronald Reagan, it is a very last party under Donald Trump, it's become a full blown personality cold, as an example of that is we don't even have a party platform in the Republican Party. You can't even I can't even tell you what it stands for anymore, because the party platform is whatever Mr. Trump wants. That's our party platform. So Karen and Vlad Amelie wash their way. And if you if you love the United States, maybe you do, maybe you don't. But if you do love the United States, I can tell you, we're our most successful when we have two very strong parties that are vigorously but civilly debating with each other and advancing the ball for progress both for the global community and for the citizens of the United States. And we're not doing that right

Dan Ilic 22:41

now. So you now you're fundraising for the Lincoln project? How is that process going? And how are the Lincoln project going in general, what what's their plan heading into the next five weeks?

Unknown Speaker 22:52

Well, I was on last night, we did live streaming before the debate, we raised a tonne of money last night, we've been doing a lot of zoom calls and gatherings remotely. And it's been very successful, they've raised 10s of millions of dollars. And their plan basically, is to eviscerate this son of a bitch. And over the next five weeks, they're going to do that. And if you look at the if you look at the ads that came out after the debate last night, I think these are very successful is what I would say to my FET friends that are Democrats, you guys got to knuckle up, you got a hard knuckle up, you have to understand the adversary better. You know, the Vice President did a good job last night. But you know, as I said to some members of his campaign, he needed an extra slice of pizza and a little bit of a spray tan or sit in the hot sun a little bit. You know, he he he needs to look more vigorous in debate number two,

Dan Ilic 23:45

and that's a very Italian yield thing to say I get a spray tan.

Unknown Speaker 23:50

Something he needed something last night because he looked to pay I was telling you the truth. He looked too pale and it looks like he's lost too much weight. You know? And you know, Francesca has probably the same mom as me. My mom has like optical nerve damage. She thinks everybody's thin, you know, you could show up 200 pounds overweight. She's like have a canola, you know, but but in the Vice President's case, he needs to be optically way more vigorous than he was last night. You know, and the good news is, you know, Donald Trump showed up the first thing I thought of when Trump showed up, he looked like the 1981 orange Corvette that I was trying to buy in high school, where unfortunately couldn't come up with enough money to buy it. That was the first thing I looked at. I mean, he literally had almost like an auto spray paint on his face. So he was optically also very disturbing.

Unknown Speaker 24:37

What's the breakdown of how much money from the link and project is actually going to ads and stuff? Because there's a lot of people online that say that you guys are just sucking in the cash.

Unknown Speaker 24:47

Yeah. Well, you'd have to ask the guys only remember, I'm not on the masthead of the Lincoln project. I am raising money for them. And I'm involved in a lot of the TV streaming but I have not taken a salary from the Lincoln Park. I'm not technically an affiliate. So meaning when you file for a packet United States, I'm not one of the name people on the pack, but I am somebody to supporting them in fundraising for them. That breakdown you'd have to get from them. I honestly don't care, whatever they're paying themselves, I think they're totally worth it. They have had the hardest knuckle ads in this election cycle, and they're having an impact on Trump, because I understand the President's personality once you're inside his melon, you can get him to do a lot of things that are mistakes for him and a lot of unforced errors. And I think the Lincoln project has been very successful about that. But because I'm not an officer of the Lincoln project, I don't know the answer of what those percentages are.

Dan Ilic 25:43

I like the idea. There's a boardroom somewhere with a whiteboard with a picture of a melon on it, and how can we get into the melon?

Lewis Hobba 25:50

Like So again, I you

Unknown Speaker 25:51

know, I can tell you, I can tell you an axiom that is totally true, because he lives in a reality distortion field, if you can get on the fox news channel, and you can speak with great truth and great clarity to his base. It sends him into orbit, literally, he's the atomic bomb emoji coming out of somebody's head, and then he'll start coming after you he'll start tweeting about you. I mean, he's still you know, he's still attached to me, he'll the last time he tweeted at me, I was on the fox news channel, explaining the destruction that he's caused to the US economy, to the destruction that he's caused to our healthcare system. Now, he's wait made us weaker, as a country as it relates to our global alliances. And so he went berserk and then started tweeting at me which, you know, listen, I'm totally capable of handling, you know, these these Republican senators. I pray for these guys, because they're very, very weak people. I mean, they're, they're intimidated by somebody that won the vote by 78,000 votes in three states. He's got them believing that he's ronald reagan from 1984. And they don't want to be tweeted at and it's sort of, you know, it's a profile in cowardice, as opposed to what Kennedy was talking about a profile encouraged.

Unknown Speaker 27:03

Mr. Scaramucci, I just have a question for you. Look, I get you're an anti Trump Republican. But arguably, he's getting the republican agenda done. He's about to confirm an anti choice, anti immigrant, anti ACA, Supreme Court Justice, the third in his tenure, what happens if he gets reelected? Ultimately, isn't the Lincoln project just kind of down without agenda? They just don't like who the the front man is. But really, if he gets reelected, you guys are probably going to go along with it because you're getting your way anyway. So where's the moral in that, I guess is what I want to do.

Unknown Speaker 27:41

I I don't see it that way. And I and I know that that's a hardcore liberal. And, you know, forgive me for saying it this way, a little bit of a cynical perspective. I don't see it that way. The the conservative agenda. That's the radical conservative agenda that you just described. That's not my agenda. If you've read stuff that I have written, I worked with the republicans in New York to equalise marriage in the state of New York, and then I work with Rob Reiner, and Chad Gryphon, on the prop eight project to nationalise the marriage equality movement. And so that's a libertarian perspective where somebody that's conservative, and I joke with some of these Danville evangelicals, you guys want a smaller government everywhere, but in my bedroom, you want a larger government in my bedroom. Moreover, the Republican Party under Trump is not classically conservative. It is a socially conservative party, which I disagree with, by the way, because that's anti libertarian ism, is a socially conservative party, but it's a quite fiscally Liberal Party. They want to deficit spend into the stratosphere, and they want to give corporations these gigantic give backs in these gigantic checks. And so for me, that's not classic conservatism. conservatism, for me is to create a platform of equal opportunity for people. I don't believe in socialism, I don't want outcomes capped. But I certainly want people that were born through no fault of their own in inner cities or in poor areas of the country, to have a platform of equal opportunity. So you really study libertarianism and conservatism. There should be a packages of services for people that come from the government, including universal health care, including universal basic income, those things are quite libertarian. If you really understand them, I would encourage you to look at something that Andrew Yang has written about them because, you know, I didn't pick my upbringing. My parents were blue collar, they were on educated, but they hustled and they worked very, very hard to put us in the middle class. And my dad had this aspirational idea about his blue collar life. He thought one of his kids would live the arc of the American dream. If you go back into the area I grew up in. those families have converted from economically aspirational Economically desperation also. So true conservatives would look at that situation and say, Okay, how can we fix that situation? What type of policies, what type of infrastructure, what type of jobs training? Do we need to create a platform of equal opportunity. But once you've got that equal opportunity, then where you go with it is is up to you. It shouldn't be capped on that on the upside. So yes, I hear you. That is a radical view. If the president wins, he will destroy our democracy. And so I don't accept the fact and nor do my friends at the Lincoln project, except the fact that Oh, we're just going to enjoy the fact that he's president and we'd like this Supreme Court that that Supreme Court pick will likely destabilise the social contract that we are in in America right now. And 75% of the people in America do not want Roe v. Wade overturned, they don't want marriage equality overturned. And this is a fringe thing for our society, I think it's very, very dangerous. So I see the republican party as a dinosaur that's about to go extinct. If they reelect President Trump, you will be with an ageing group of people that are buying my pillows and catheters in between foxnews ads, that's what you're going to be left with. I would like

Unknown Speaker 31:17

this are good catheters.

Unknown Speaker 31:21

Next to I left, that the thing you put on your face when you have like sleep apnea, but my point is, I want that party to expand. And I want that party to expand demographically. And I want that party to expand with the beautiful mosaic of colours of the United States. And I want people to think about conservatism differently than the way Trump is describing it. But that is a cynical view of conservatism. And there's a lot of people in that party that hold that view.

Dan Ilic 31:45

And I reject that view, it'd be really interesting to say how you might support universal health care once Biden wins the election, at least carry it.

Unknown Speaker 31:55

What do you mean, I will remember that the vice pres is very smart guy. He's calling for the maintenance of private insurance. And he's calling for the expansion of Obamacare. If you remember, I supported Governor Mitt Romney in 2012. And when he was governor of the state of Massachusetts, he developed something that was called romney care, right, which ultimately evolved into Obamacare. Now, we can disagree with elements of Obamacare. But I'll tell you guys something. The medicine in the United States got socialised in 1986, by Ronald Reagan. And how did that happen? He signed an obscure piece of legislation in 1986. That forced every emergency room doctor in every hospital in the country that if you walked in, and you were sick, and you came into the emergency room, they had a moral and legal obligation to take care of you. And so, you know, we we've had it, we've had this medical nationalisation, if you will, we have to come up with a more propitious way to allocate the capital and make it more efficient. But we've got to get down can't be the last nation, Western industrialised nation that doesn't have that health care.

Unknown Speaker 33:03

So we should I think the answer, if I'm understanding you correctly, is to tax billionaires like 90%, like we did back in the 40s.

Unknown Speaker 33:14

Well, you gotta be careful, I, again, I have no problem paying taxes. But I think you got you have to be careful because my money is not in a swimming pool in my backyard and hundred dollar bills. My money is spread out into a lots of companies that are creating a lot of jobs. And so what happens is, when you tack somebody at 90%, they start to curb their behaviour. And they start to do things like move their money around to avoid those taxes. And so you want to make sure that you're hitting the intersection of the tax code, where you're incentivizing people to do things that are in the bandwidth of the public good. And you're not causing their mobilisation. Look at what's going on in some of these blue states. People are migrating to the, to the red states that have no income tax

Unknown Speaker 33:56

on mostly corporations. But yes,

Unknown Speaker 33:59

listen, you know, my friend, David Tepper, he was 100 and $80 million of the New Jersey tax revenues. One person with his hedge fund. He wanted a tax break from them. They said, No, he moved. And he moved to Miami, he took the hundred and $80 million with the race to the bottom. Yeah, you know, I think I think don't here here's a message I would say to everybody on this podcast, don't get miss a locked into your point of view. Because what ends up happening is when your missile lock, you'll make this very same mistakes that I've made. When you're overly missile locked, you're not seeing it from the other side, you're not seeing the other person's perspective. And that's how we got into the problem that we're in right now. That's why we're so polarised. And that's why we go after each other so far.

Unknown Speaker 34:43

Well, I mean, another reason we're polarised is because we have been living under Neo liberalism since really hardcore since 1980. And so what that has caused is massive inequality that hasn't existed in a developed nation since the French Revolution, which didn't end Great. So It's actually not my political beliefs as much as me having lived under it for now, you know, going on 40 years as being politically aware, and watching a country dissolve, because all the social safety nets have been removed because people don't want to pay taxes, and it's really simple. Everyone should pay their fair share, and billionaires aren't millionaires overnight, and we see what Trump he gets paid $750 in taxes, and everybody else,

Unknown Speaker 35:27

we have to pay tonnes of taxes. Why? Because we don't have because I can't buy a golf course.

Unknown Speaker 35:33

Book. I'm gonna recommend a book on the podcast, if you guys know why it's called American amnesia. And it's a very practical book. It's not necessarily a less base book or right base book. It's not about left or right policy, but it's about right or wrong policy. And it's fairly centrist. And it is making your case by the way, it is making your case that we disavowed the things that got us to where we are, I am the product of a very good public school system. You can't solve the education crisis in the United States without activating public school teachers and working with their unions to enhance the quality of education for these people. You're not going to get there with charter schools, you're not going to get there with conservative jingoism or Betsy DeVos. Okay, but you can get there, we have the right technology, we have the right skill sets, and we have the right capability. And you can convince people that that is actually not necessarily a conservative principle or a liberal principle. But what a great practicality, someone who was a despicable human being Henry Ford, as an example, he was a racist. He was he had a picture of Adolf Hitler on his desk. But he was a pretty magnificent social engineer. He said once and I'll share it with everybody who said, Look, I'm going to pay my workers enough money, so that they can buy the car that they are producing. Moreover, they're going to have a single family house, and they're going to be tied to a very good school system. This way, all these blue collar people will feel aspirational. And they won't come after me in my mansion with tiki torches and pitchforks. And so he

Unknown Speaker 37:08

also had he also actually hired last actually hired men to beat up union members so that he hired he actually hired men to beat up union members. I mean, his his right hand man was one of the most brutal people in the country at the time, and he was a big

Anthony Scaramucci 37:26

I'm giving him credit for an idea. I'm sure that there was mentality in setting up those unions. You know, Roosevelt was against them before he was for them, you will find that everybody has some level of incentives and disincentives, and there is no hero to a man or a woman's valet. You know, if you really study Abraham Lincoln, he was against the abolishment of slavery in the beginning, if you really study him, he wanted to move the African Americans back to Africa. Okay, so he's not a perfect person. Jefferson wasn't Washington obviously wasn't, I certainly am not maybe the four of you are. But here's what I would say to you. Here's what I would say to you. If we go after each other, we go after each other, we're not going to solve the problems. And so there's great ideas on the left. There are some still good ideas on the right, the stuff that princess is suggesting I don't like at all. And so last thing I would say on this topic, Francesca if he wins, he is a threat to the core institutions of our democracy. And so if he wins, you have to look at it from that hierarchy, my patriotism, and my love of country. Is that a way higher order of operation than my partisanship. And so what I find so shocking about this whole thing is as this is unfolded, there are many men and women that have decided that they're clutching a personal power, and they're clutching to the partisanship, nature of this thing is more important than their love of country. So the good news though, is I remain optimistic that there's more people that see it the way we do and want him out than people that see him as somebody that they want to stay with. One last thing before you go, Sarah Huckabee Sanders, his book came out and she said, Wow, wobbu she writes while we're on route to the gemba, a mooch announced I'm proud to report I cross my made a major item off my bucket list today. I assumed he would say something like riding on Air Force One, but instead the mooch said, he just took it taken a huge shift in the White House. Well, I think I remember. I remember using that word, but I think I could have said done. Fred seska. Let me turn it over to you. Do you have any brothers? I

Unknown Speaker 39:40

Yeah, I do. What am I supposed to be the voice of being couth on this? I know. Women you know women take down that. Oh, yeah, women. Here's the thing about women's bundles. Women's bundles are amazing.

Unknown Speaker 39:55

Actually, I was very proud of

Unknown Speaker 39:58

it. And I'm just saying Is your Italian brothers probably would identify with me and have empathy for my feeling of having that on my bucket list since I was age 14. But anyway, let me just put it this way it was the start of a movement, obviously.

Dan Ilic 40:12

It was also the end of a movement as well.

Unknown Speaker 40:17

That experience for me as painful as it was and in often

Unknown Speaker 40:24

it was very enlightening. Not the shit I'm talking about.

Unknown Speaker 40:31

I mean, if we're going to talk about the shift, the shift was fantastic. Okay, I'm still very proud of it. I own it. And if you have follow up questions, I'm ready to take those as well.

Unknown Speaker 40:40

I do Did you did you text someone while you were shitting

Unknown Speaker 40:44

No, no, I don't I definitely don't do that because I'm a little bit of a neat freak that way I don't really use my phone and I'm on the crapper. But God washed my hands and I was heading for the convoy that was heading out to air force one I did text my 28 year old son to let him know of the accomplishment. I think it was very proud of me as his father.

Dan Ilic 41:04

Well, most thanks so much for joining us on irrational fear. Do you have anything to plug before we go?

Unknown Speaker 41:08

Well, no, no, listen, guys, guys, I listen to the to the Reverend podcast and I love it. But read that book. Dave Anthony, I think you'll enjoy it American amnesia. It talks about it talks about the need for the reestablishment of that social contract that you're gonna

Unknown Speaker 41:23

look at a duck money if you read the book.

Unknown Speaker 41:27

Well, I I read dark money. Jane Mayer is a brilliant writer. I think that his her Opus her and I are very close friends. I've helped her on a lot of her stories. And dark money, I think is her Opus. I think that's going to be one of the seminal books of that 40 year period that you're discussing 1980 2020 and that and that book speaks to the need for change and real conservatives don't like crony capitalism, and they don't like all that special interest money corrupting the system and real conservatives. And remember the father of progressivism was Teddy Roosevelt who happened to be a Republican. They break up monopolies real conservatives recognise that monopoly power is actually predatory. It stifles innovation, and it keeps people down and it needs to be broken up and revitalised. And real conservatives actually study that stuff. And they don't just take money from special interest and do what they want, under the cover of conservatism.

Dan Ilic 42:24

Thanks, Mitch, we'll let you go and we'll finish off our show.

Unknown Speaker 42:26

Well, I mean, we had to leave it on the deuce though, right.

Unknown Speaker 42:33

I was going in the right direction. Francesca was starting to like me, then you had to bring up the deuce Jesus Christ.

Unknown Speaker 42:43

Listening to a rational seer was a hot mess inside a dumpster fire inside a train wreck. That was the worst debate I have ever seen. Say it like it is

Dan Ilic 42:56

that was a shit show. Fred and Dave so great to have two big powered brains on with a niche that was

Unknown Speaker 43:05

them bringing the meeting we were being super fair. We had some clips but he was like very like see your you hateful lot like

Unknown Speaker 43:16

he knows his audience right? He knows this centrist audience really just wants to say that thing where they're like you guys are mean and you guys are mean let's meet in the middle. And it's like No, dude, those days are gone. There's no more meeting in the middle with any of these people like but he knows that's what the centrists want to hear that so he's

Unknown Speaker 43:32

getting money for like show me like Lincoln project if you're gonna retake the republican party and actually prove that you aren't pieces of shit show me more than ads like you're talking about the money like do it then do it because I bet you your ass if he if he wins they're gonna go away the Lincoln project will go away they'll just be like well guess what reality is now dupa do like they're gonna fucking

Dan Ilic 43:55

Lincoln project is not too dissimilar to West Wing where it's like it is a it's almost like this shot in Freud or s liberal fantasy that these people exist and people are buying Yes. And it's not quite it's not quite for conservatives but it is for liberals to to think that these people are conservative and they're buying into the shot and Friday. It's comedy gaslighting.

Lewis Hobba 44:14

It's the episode of The West Wing that I don't know if you've got to Dave where they get the the eight the like the republican the sorry, the conservative judge in and they all think he's gonna be the devil. And then they're all like, No, he's actually very smart.

Unknown Speaker 44:29

Yeah. What's your

Unknown Speaker 44:33

what's that podcast called Dave? It's called The West Wing thing. Nice. It's so funny cuz me and him started out we like had a long talk and like we can't upset the writers. We just have to play politics with this as far as writing careers are going and we started like being like, Yeah, he's a good writer, blah, blah. And then like six episodes in we're like, this guy's a misogynist piece of shit.

Unknown Speaker 44:55

turns and we're just like, fuck this guy.

Lewis Hobba 44:58

He was better when he was on cocaine.

Unknown Speaker 45:02

The thing about talking about conservatives and like that I've been living under it my whole life it doesn't exist so glad you have your little Fairyland idea what conservative is but it's never been around in my life so let me know when that kicks in with all of your conservative presidents and your conservative senate I don't know when it kicks in

Unknown Speaker 45:21

idolising Reagan is just like like his entirely you know, we believe in a social safety net like calling black women welfare queens and accusing them of eating steaks every day. Oh yeah, yeah. reaganomics you know.

Unknown Speaker 45:35

We used to have our press secretary come out and laugh at people dying of AIDS ha ha ha conservatism you know I'm Reagan was a fucking monster Reagan was so exact thing Trump was as a little less crass.

Unknown Speaker 45:49

That's exactly right.

Lewis Hobba 45:51

I remember listening to Dave your, your podcasts on Reagan listening to the dollar upon Reagan. And as an Australian, like who don't he's the only real thing of Reagan was like a, you know, comedians doing the imitation or like he used to be an actor or whatever. I was sick. Sick. Yeah, it was the it was nonstop. It was a full like, hour and a half body blow of disgust.

Unknown Speaker 46:17

Yeah, he's, he's a monster and Trump is 100% his heir apparent. And the real problem that we have is that liberals have no memory and don't know how to hold a grudge.

Lewis Hobba 46:31

I believe we call it American Asia. Yeah.

Unknown Speaker 46:35

a grudge

Unknown Speaker 46:36

This is what I'm saying that like I was just think about that today. Like the Bush years, eight years, two wars, two plus fours. Like all I we absolutely should have gone after him for war crimes. But like, after eight years of bush after four years of Trump, how much more do you want to think about these people like

Dan Ilic 46:57

you? And the easiest way to erase that is easiest way to erase that is to paint some terrible paintings and go on and talk about let's forget about the war crimes. You've got pesto.

Unknown Speaker 47:11

I mean, you really have to you have to prosecute the bankers, you have to prosecute the george bush's of the world, and you have to suffer through that. Because if you don't, well, you get because now there is no rule of law. And when you say Trump is breaking the law, all those people go What about the fucking bankers? You didn't do anything about? What about the war you didn't do anything about? So you know, what's your argument? Where's your moral sort of ground? I'm

Unknown Speaker 47:35

just saying, I don't want to think about him anymore. But yeah, you're right. You're absolutely right.

Dan Ilic 47:40

Look on that nut. You know, we did had two other stories to get to, but you know, we're already going over time, so why even bother? That's irrational fear. Big thanks to our fear mongers this week. The mooch Francesca fiorentini, Dave Anthony and Louis haba. Do you guys have anything to plug Francesca?

Unknown Speaker 47:57

Follow me on Twitter and Instagram at frannie FeO and watch the Situation Room every Sunday night.

Dan Ilic 48:03

bitchu ation room. It's just like a rational fear. But it's got much better graphics. It's really good. It's excellent. That's that's not hard. And Dave, you want to plug anything,

Unknown Speaker 48:14

my podcast at all by the second podcast, the West Wing thing which I do with Oscar nominated writer Josh Olson, in which we discuss how the West Wing melted all of these brains of people who are liberals and are now in charge of our country, and they don't know what to do because they think that's how politics works.

Dan Ilic 48:36

Are you talking about specifically they attack?

Unknown Speaker 48:39

I would say Pelosi Schumer, I would say Obama's entire ministration was a huge victim of westwing brain. There's a lot that I would say most of the democrats that are in charge,

Unknown Speaker 48:50

saying the podsafe people just mean

Unknown Speaker 48:54

absolutely. podsafe guys are some of the worst in their books actually describe how they, you know, would have parties and talk about which one was Toby which moves Josh? Like they're there. They're all playing. They're doing cosplay for West Wing as opposed to actually governing. And they're getting their asses kicked because of it. And we're all suffering because I saw

Dan Ilic 49:11

a great tweet from Australia and notorious Twitter Dan Dolan, who said, Well, at least the crooked media guys gave Biden five stars for this debate.

That was very erudite from from Daniel Lewis, you got anything to plug buddy?

Lewis Hobba 49:28

No, Dan, same old.

Dan Ilic 49:30

Big thanks to Bertha Foundation, road mics, and our Patreon subscribers and Big thanks to Dave bluestein for writing support on this episode and our producer Jacob brown on the tepanyaki timeline. Until next week, there's always something to be scared of goodbye.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

📨 SUBSCRIBE TO OUR EMAIL LIST: http://www.arationalfear.com/

Inside the Minister for Emissions Reductions office, everyday is ‘opposite day.’

As the saying goes:

You’ve got to make emissions, to reduce emissions.

You have to do something, by doing nothing.

The only way to create emissions free hydrogen is by using greenhouse gas.

The only way to encourage renewable energy is to defund renewable energy.

We’re living in very strange time. The rest of the world is aggressively moving to a carbon free future. China is set to decarbonise their economy by 2060. Next year at COP26 every country will be taking plans to go further, and ratchet up mechanisms for further emissions reductions, because the Paris agreement isn’t going to cut it.

Net 0 emissions by 2050 is no longer the big ambition, it’s the status quo. A few countries will be going in hard to do even more. Leading, in other words.

And when the world is doing this, where is that leaving Australia?

Australia is the Shore School of the world. Outwardly rich, entitled, antagonistic, and going around spitting on poor people and taking photos of its penis on things to win points with mates, Saudi Arabia, and the USA.

Instead of doing the work: transitioning the economy to a carbon free future.

We’re burning more gas — to lower emissions?

Gaslighting figuratively and literally.

</rant>

Dan

Big thanks to The Bertha Foundation, our Patreon Supporters and RODE Mics. Jacob Round, Kate Holdsworth, Rupert Degas and David Bloustien.

OTTER AI TRANSCRIPTION:

Unknown Speaker 0:00

This podcast is supported in part by the birth of foundation

Lewis Hobba 0:04

Jay Lewis Hello Daniel. How are you?

Dan Ilic 0:06

Well now I've got some good news about Patreon we What are you? Why are you laughing?

Lewis Hobba 0:13

Well, I don't know I always find this ridiculous and the constant promises of paying guests often month to turned on so I feel like I'm in a guest lot relationship

Dan Ilic 0:22

with you. And we're gonna be talking about gaslighting a little bit later on and we will pay you I'm sure as soon as we break even on the show, but we have 101 supporters now which is great. So Keith Williams, Mr. Kelly, Frankie Lee Leon, Supriya Dwayne Flanagan, they've all chipped in become Patreon supporters this week. Big Thank you g which means we're two thirds of the way of may have not having to pay for this show myself anymore, which I couldn't be happier about. tech support the show go to patreon.com forward slash irrational fear. Another way you can support the show is to offset the carbon emissions from your car with go neutral. For every $90 sticker go neutral will buy 3.5 tonnes of carbon offsets which is about the average yearly emissions from a car and $5 of that comes to us to go go neutral. Click on the link in the show notes. So go to bitly.com Ford slash code neutral at the end of this week's podcast. We have an amazing lineup of for next week's UI selection show the lineup is amazing. I'm going to tell you about it at the end to hear it so you don't have to listen to the whole show. Or it's a podcast, you can skip to the end. It's kind of up to you. I'm recording my end of rational fee on gadigal land in the urination. sovereignty was never stated. We need a treaty. Let's stop the shot.

Unknown Speaker 1:34

A Russian will fear contains naughty words

Unknown Speaker 1:36

like bricks can

Unknown Speaker 1:40

come and section 40 of our rational fear recommended listening

Unknown Speaker 1:45

by image your audience

Dan Ilic 1:47

tonight when asked by a journalist if he would commit to a peaceful transition of power if he lost the 2020 election, Donald Trump said what's an election and that journalist has never seen again, and immigration minister Alan touch has been accused by a judge for the crime of withholding an innocent Afghanis Personal Liberty. He was also personally thanks by Peter Dutton for withholding and innocent Afghanis Personal Liberty. And Mel Gibson is set to remake Passion of the Christ because the first time around, he didn't fight now. It's the 25th of September 2020. If you did listening to this in 2015 We're so sorry. We tried. This is a rational fear.

Let's meet our fear mongers first night Queensland rise but chooses to suffer in Sydney she was 2017 raw comedy state finalists but plans on being a 2020 completionist it's Lizzy who Hello Lizzy. What are you looking forward to most in completing 2020

Lizzy Hoo 2:52

I just try to hold it. Hang in there. I think

Dan Ilic 2:55

we all and she's going stir crazy in her hermetically sealed Melbourne domas quite frankly, we booked it because he's just happy to talk to anyone. It's the record of Australian comedy Geraldine Quinn.

Geraldine Quinn 3:05

Thank you It's good that you didn't use the the feminine of god it's clearly a a pan gender or term

Dan Ilic 3:12

totally What what? you know if if Cate Blanchett is an actor, you're a god.

Geraldine Quinn 3:19

I'm really sorry. I can't fix anything in the world.

Dan Ilic 3:22

Geraldine is this experience kind of like going out?

Geraldine Quinn 3:26

Well, it's it's very sweet of you to think that I still went out. I am 45 After all, and I leave south of the river, which if you live in Melbourne means no one ever talks to you.

Dan Ilic 3:38

And he's been introduced 70 times on this podcast. There's no need for an introduction, but I'll do one anyway, out of sheer professional courtesy. It's Louis Allah.

Lewis Hobba 3:46

Allah Daniel. What a joy to be here. I like to Jared and I've been met kind of imagining that when when not here. You're just hoping to like for soccer balls.

Dan Ilic 3:59

Coming up a little later on on the podcast we're gonna be hearing from rupert murdoch. And we'll be talking gas and mirrors with the leader of the grains Adam, Ben. But first, here's a word from this week's sponsor.

Unknown Speaker 4:10

It's the largest recession in history in the

Unknown Speaker 4:14

Coronavirus stimulus is said to be slash junkie Bob was 1500 a fortnight now. 1200 or four nights job seeker was 550. a fortnight now just 250 a fortnight economic stimulus reduced by 3040 and 50% off the unemployed have never been more motivated to get a job that doesn't exist. There's more during the largest ever climate emergency the pm is giving billions to the fossil fuel industry for gas pipelines and instead of ending emissions, he's making more of them. Every guy is opposite diet, taking the money for the ball and giving it to the race. You've got to have a go decade ago before it's all gone. God God children conditions apply for donations. $6 million or more to the Liberal Party see the PDF.

Dan Ilic 5:02

Fear mongers return your tray tables to the upright position. The first beer tonight is the Qantas round trip. This way quad is broke the record for the fastest selling flight in history. And it's a flight to nowhere which is still better than flying to Adelaide. The flight which sold out in just 10 minutes of vago sail is a seven hour sightseeing trip from Sydney around the country. Yes, if you look at the left hand side, you'll see the long white clouds over the Gold Coast. And then the long white clouds of Uluru and if you look at the right hand side, you'll see the long white clouds of the owner. That's just the Great Barrier Reef. Don't worry about that. And you could sit in the back for $800 or you can sit up the front for 4000 and for $8,000 you can drive to the airport and have a coffee which is great. They also have the fall in flight entertainment system which you could spend $800 watching Tennant the way Christopher Nolan purely intended a quantum spokesperson actually said people clearly Miss travel and the experience of flying and clearly those people have never tried ketamine fear mongers. What is appealing about this experience to you Lizzie who

Lizzy Hoo 6:06

I have no idea I have no idea why this is appealing. Maybe it's like really devout points people.

Dan Ilic 6:17

Point riders Yeah,

Lizzy Hoo 6:18

there's people that need to get this status back to whatever the highest one is. I don't know what that

Geraldine Quinn 6:26

was. I can hang around on the quantas lounge on their own.

Dan Ilic 6:30

There's nothing like there's nothing like a bowl of cornflakes except when it's at the at the cornice lounge that that feels good when you're having a bowl of cornflakes in the corners lounge that's a special bowl of cornflakes

Geraldine Quinn 6:39

I'm so sorry. It might be the fact that there's a pandemic on but I was convinced for a second then you said Ebola Congo cornflakes and I I'm quite tired but I went DAN DAN you're the age man Come

Unknown Speaker 6:53

on. I believe

Dan Ilic 6:54

you can get that in the tiger lounge the

Lewis Hobba 6:59

bowler in the corner sledge is still the second worst thing up the sky and us being I love the the the flights nowhere. I think it's it's romantic. It would be very different you know people used to do those surprise flights, mystery duck pack a bikini and the coat babe because you don't know where we're going. And then just do end up back home.

Dan Ilic 7:23

Yeah, this is this is packed the house cake cuz we're coming right back.

Lewis Hobba 7:27

I also because cuantas have just been selling everything that a few weeks ago. They put all of the inflight meals on on for sale and they sold out in like, no time at all. But then this week, they actually put up for sale their drinks carts filled to the brim with the booze. Yeah. Which is amazing. But it's just like, I will as much booze as you could drink on that drinks card. It will never be able to replicate the feeling of having like one and a half bad red wines and then weeping to a Pixar film.

Dan Ilic 8:00

You can do that at home.

Lewis Hobba 8:01

Yeah, crying on my couch. I don't need to pay four grand

Dan Ilic 8:05

they those carts sold for $1,000. And they're already sold out. They have up to 160 miniature one bottles and I'm thinking who's buying that grant Daniel doesn't have enough.

Lizzy Hoo 8:18

It's like a deceased estate.

Geraldine Quinn 8:23

But with soy traits.

Dan Ilic 8:25

It's totally true. I mean, I stood on Bondi Beach and I watched the last quanta 747 fly out of Australia. That was a tear down my face because I love I love kind of aviation. But what's interesting you say it's like a deceased estate. I don't think it's too far from the truth because cuantas today, it's just cut out that they've been underpaying workers through job caper, and they've selling all the booze to pay their workers back.

Geraldine Quinn 8:49

Oh, this is a pleasant idea. I particularly like that somebody was quoting you know, our people miss travel, they missed the experience of flying, I wouldn't have picked you as one of those people down. But I know that sounds bullshit to me. And the only thing magical about flying is affected chicken fat with impunity, and it just disappears. So maybe if I could find a way to harness that power, then they'd be in a better

Unknown Speaker 9:11

position economically.

Dan Ilic 9:12

That's how you can make renewable flight but putting a tube in everybody's bomb and power on the plane.

Lizzy Hoo 9:18

I kind of hope it's like a really wet weather day.

Lewis Hobba 9:24

Yeah, this is like terrible turbulence. They can't leave the tarmac. It's like I'm so sorry. And all the people in the planet going even longer on the plane.

Dan Ilic 9:33

flight to Nowhere is delayed.

Lizzy Hoo 9:36

I'd love to see the horse get on and just be like you know the drill. Just have a good time.

Lewis Hobba 9:46

And at the local time, and I got back the local time is exactly the same way.

Geraldine Quinn 9:51

I just like the idea of if I could just hire a whole bunch of out of work performance to run pass the windows holding like portable plastic trays. Throwing seagulls across the way and we can we can all really give a boost to all of our industries. But now I just sell the bass.

Lizzy Hoo 10:07

You can have a concert on the plane.

Geraldine Quinn 10:11

Oh, I enjoy it be up for that. Beautiful

Lewis Hobba 10:15

cuantas kids so you sing the song on all the route. What are they doing now?

Geraldine Quinn 10:19

Oh, my nephew was one that was in that choir.

Unknown Speaker 10:22

For the for that.

Dan Ilic 10:24

Narrow they're all now they're all executives at quantis they're firing.

Unknown Speaker 10:33

they seize a few feet

Dan Ilic 10:36

number two, the federal government has announced they're upgrading the NBN. Finally we can party like it's 2007. It's the technology of today sometime before the decade is out. This comes after eight years of insisting that fibre to the node was perfectly good internet, you know, like when you really wanted a skateboard and your dad and 60s making you a perfectly good one in the shed out of two planks in a milk crate. It's not a skateboard Dad, it's a fucking milk, right? And show you know, we could have had this over a decade ago but Tony Abbott and the Liberal Party dismissed fibre to the home as an irresponsible gold plated option. On the other hand, the amount they've wasted on out of date inefficient copper wise, we could have actually played it in in gold. If you remember Tony Abbott dismissed the NBN is essentially a video entertainment system when it was actually really important for universities and businesses and local libraries and everyone else ever who is now unemployed and stuck at home watching their video entertainment systems. Louis some when you get it, what are you gonna do with all that fancy internet? Oh, my God.

Lewis Hobba 11:35

Well, first things first, I'm going to get jump right on this podcast and get crystal clear audio from you. To me. One of the most frustrating and just writ large moments of Australian politics everyone knew everyone knew at the time. Like this is the most predictable car crash and the slowest one. Like there was not a single exit. There's no single person who used the internet back then. But didn't see this coming.

Dan Ilic 12:09

I don't know if it happened for Lizzie and Geraldine. But when you said frustrating there was a great glitch on

Lizzy Hoo 12:20

how smug is run at the moment. I've just seen it.

Lewis Hobba 12:23

The only downside to this almost sacrifice good internet. So lose Kevin Rudd smugness?

Dan Ilic 12:31

I don't know if you caught the conversation that he and I had a few weeks ago on this podcast, but one of the things he did a was a was that, that in terms of stimulus what the government should do is completely nvn in three weeks later, that's exactly what they've come up to do. Like Yes, irrational fear is finally setting the agenda.

Geraldine Quinn 12:54

Maybe they listened to him because he's excellent Russian accent on that episode.

Dan Ilic 12:57

Oh, thank you for listening. Now, yeah, Rod was on this podcast just a couple of weeks ago talking about that. He also claimed that Rupert Cote rupert murdoch, that is coerce the government into delivering slow internet so Netflix wouldn't compete with foxtel. You'd be surprised that Rupert himself seemed very pleased with this week's announcement. So he made an announcement of his very own.

Unknown Speaker 13:19

Hello there, it's lord and saviour rupert murdoch here. Now I'm pleased to announce that now that News Corp has finally gotten around to allowing the federal government to put in fibre to the home so that's wonderful. It's superfast internet, it's over. fibre optic cable. So it's it's so futuristic, you'll think you're living in the year 2000. I know what you're thinking, why didn't you do this earlier, Rupert? Well, you couldn't watch sports streaming on demand. But you can now with coyo you see which I Oh, you couldn't watch foxtail streaming on demand but you can now was binge which would shy and you couldn't watch Parliament streaming on demand either. And I own that too. I have for a long time, but no one watches it so it doesn't matter. So look, you're bloody welcome. All right. And if you want to watch the 2021 United States Civil War live and uncut and unedited by me Fox News has the streaming rights to that to which I own so burger off and get some subscriptions. Thank you very much.

Dan Ilic 14:23

Go Trump. Very good. Australia isn't the only country with terrible internet and our final feed tonight comes from the Welsh village of Abba hosen where at precisely 7am every day, the broadband signal would cut out. And after days of testing and replacing cables, engineers worked out that the problem was caused by one villages old TV. Geraldine Can you relate to this old guys TV problems

Geraldine Quinn 14:49

are really can I mean apart from the fact that if you are on the live stream, and you can see my study, it's clear I never throw anything out. So I would be exactly the person that has that TV. I just thought it was this is such an adorable story. Because when I worked at what I had to send all these engineers in with, with some with radio waves, signal receivers to try to work out what it was because there could be a whole bunch of different electrical things.

Dan Ilic 15:10

It was like Ghostbusters.

Geraldine Quinn 15:11

It was Yeah. And then finally find that there was this one person and there was so embarrassed that they didn't want to be named. So I'm in Melbourne in week eight of stage four lockdown, and we've got cashed up bogans from carrum downs, going into the city getting chased through Elmwood park by police on a horse and screaming about their rights because they can't get a sausage of Bunnings and yet this person was just so embarrassed he sense of society and his and he's Judy to his fellow villagers that he was like please don't name me. I should be there should be setting up a GoFundMe so he get a smart TV for

what an amazing story. Broadband

Dan Ilic 15:52

7am What do you have to admit to turning onto the UK version of sunrise?

Geraldine Quinn 15:57

No idea what you're doing which television is seven was probably just to get the weather or maybe like me just left it on for company. I mean, whoops, I've got a rich and varied social life.

Lewis Hobba 16:08

I would be given all of the like Coronavirus conspiracies. Imagine all the people in Wales like stuck in the house. I look out the window and it's just 10 people in suits with little specks zipping around. Like I can't believe that hasn't spiralled into any conspiracy theory.

Lizzy Hoo 16:24

Old Town too, wasn't it?

Geraldine Quinn 16:26

He owes me 400 people, Dan,

Lewis Hobba 16:28

if you ruin the internet in the small town I grew up in right now you would be lynched.

Dan Ilic 16:35

I love this quote from the retired builder. He's named Bill child. He's 79. He said we've had broadband problems for as long as I can remember. He's 79 Wow, that's a long time to broadband. In the past few years, we must have had 30 or 40 engineers to the house on a broadband to get my grocery shopping done. I'm almost at with COVID especially I rely on shopping to be delivered. Don't we all bill child's definitely Oh, I don't

Lizzy Hoo 16:59

know if there's my dad's ID and he tried to do online shopping and no go that is not He's lying.

Unknown Speaker 17:11

He's looking at porn and

Geraldine Quinn 17:15

what's going on in six positive jph

Dan Ilic 17:19

I'm not gonna I'm not gonna Yeah, Casey, I'm gonna start streaming to the

Unknown Speaker 17:28

inside. No, no. That's the best I can do, striding

Dan Ilic 17:35

Mother. Mother.

Unknown Speaker 17:38

This is a rational view. This is just another practical example of

Dan Ilic 17:42

the NBA. Howe interview guests for tonight was a bright young man when he first entered politics just a few years later. Now. He's just another bright old man in politics. It's the Honourable Member for Melbourne and leader of the grains Adam band. Adam, thanks for joining us on irrational fear.

Adam Bandt 17:58

What's the truth a couple of nights ago it was just like that just

Dan Ilic 18:03

did did with the old TVs in the trip causing broadband problems.

Adam Bandt 18:08

not quite there it was be more advanced than that.

Dan Ilic 18:12

Now, Adam, we got you on this podcast to talk gas. Let's talk gas together. Let's turn methane into a stain. It's been a I'm just gonna do a bit of a rant. Before we kick off now all the union energy announcements over the last couple of weeks have really got me down. And it's our mission is that should be down not me. So let's do a quick recap of the last couple of weeks the Australian Renewable Energy Agency, the agency to design to fund renewable energy is now going to be used to create emissions intensive fossil fuel projects. Hey, like methane gas generation. And hydrogen generation is also on the cards. Now that normally sounds like a clean clean fuel. But under this plan, they plan to make hydrogen using electricity made from gas power. Yes, hydrogen made from gases like eating a cucumber made from recycled dildos. You know, it looks like a cucumber. It tastes like a cucumber. But I can't help but think it's been used for some other purpose and I'm gonna be sick later. arena would also pay for magical technology like carbon capture storage, just like Harry Potter. This technology only exists in books. And this is interesting from Alan Finkel, he had this quote when this announcement was being made, he said, I know some may be sceptical because carbon capture permanent storage hasn't been commercially viable in the electricity generation industry. During the presentation for this event, the Chief Scientist was saying it doesn't work. Also, this week, no emissions reduction targets were set. That's right. The minister for emissions reduction hasn't actually set a target for the industry to get their emissions reduced. And that's his whole job. They renewed the renewable energy target didn't get re implemented. It was just kind of left abandoned and just have to fly away in the wind and Scott Morrison also this way got into sada said renewables don't need help they pay for themselves, the market can look after them. Whereas fossil fuels still need 29 billion US a year in subsidies. You know, one day those fossil fuel industries will hopefully break even. And maybe they can pay some fucking tax. Morrison said on the inside also, also, now we're focused on lowering emissions, which is why we're building new gas plants and seeing if call is viable and not signing up to any targets to lower any emissions. You also said, I'm not interested in signing things, I'm interested in doing things. That's why we're investing in carbon capture storage technology that's not working at any scale anywhere in the world. CCS is the very definition of not doing anything. And when it came to writing about net zero emissions by 2050, he said, we have a plan to achieve that in the second half of next century. That's not 2050. That's 2900. here's the kicker Katyn joshy wrote in renewable economy at the rate of yearly emissions drops between 2020 and 2030. In the Australia's government projections, he reckons that Australia will reach net zero emissions by 2300 2300. According to government, the government's own paperwork, only one can assume that scomo is you know, rapidly trying to accelerate emissions because he wants to bring on the rapture early for his Hillsong mates. And maybe that is a plan. It's a good plan. And this is also the plan this whole technology plan, this whole Technology Roadmap, is the plan that Australia is taking to cop 26. Yes, the whole world is rapidly accelerating their own emissions reduction to be net zero by 2030. Even China declared this way they're going carbon neutral by 2060. Yes. Not even the country that's putting Tibetans in forced labour cancer, the Olympics is evil enough to buy our coal, we're going to be going up to Glasgow, and showing that we don't have a renewable energy target. We don't have any renewables. We're not investing. Now. We're investing in billions of technologies. That doesn't work. We're going to make hydrogen with methane, and we're going to frack ourselves to death. Well, global leaders at the Conference of Parties 26 what do you think about fuckin plan? Well, Australia has a history of cheating and stealing and tricking. So this conference, so you know, like they didn't Kyoto in Paris, why should the fact they've turned up and taking a giant ship in the middle of the living room be surprising, it's not, we expected it. That's why we're implementing carbon tariffs on imports from countries like Australia, so they could take a ship anywhere in the world, and then they'll be able to pay for it. Adam, had a guy

Adam Bandt 22:27

summed it up really well, I might pinch a few of those lines, if I can. I mean, what everyone's been, rightly like we're kind of dropped everything to do with the Coronavirus at the moment, and that we're all stuck in Melbourne in lockdown. No one likes it. But we understand that we've got to do it. And but it's occupied the national agenda, and rightly so because it's literally a matter of life and death. But while that's been happening, the announcement after announcement has been coming in about what is happening on the climate crisis front. And just this week, we got told that, that you refer to the Paris Agreement and the parties to all of the Paris agreement, which we're going to make this year and are going to meet again next year. And you update has come out that has said that the parties to the Paris Agreement, we all agreed to try and limit global warming to less than two degrees, because that's generally accepted as being go above that, and the chain reaction might become unstoppable, right, and you might not be able to rein it in. And we've been it's clear as day that the pledges that everyone has made are not going to limit us to two degrees. And we got told this week that even if we do limit global warming to two degrees, sea levels might rise by a couple of metres the century and forget about the Great Barrier Reef, it's gone forever. And so we're talking about massive, massive changes. Even if we make the targets that are set out in Paris, Scott Morrison's targets have us on track for three degrees, right. So not two degrees, but three degrees. And the Bureau of Meteorology came along to the Senate and told the senate Senate committee that in Australia, current targets are going to mean something more like 4.4 degrees by the end of the century. So during during the lifetime of today's Primary School students, so we're talking about massive, massive devastation in Australia and a huge threat. And there's a simple thing that we've got to do like in order to increase our ambition, so that we stay below two degrees, which is to phase out coal and gas, like we can't be talking about new coal and gas we've got the plan has to be how do we take the existing coal and guess what we've got and phase it out. But instead, what not only is Maurice I'm not talking about that, and he's not talking about gas instead of coal, we have met gas as well as coal. So not only is he not coming along with a plan to phase it out, he's coming on with a plan to take money that should be going to solar and wind or to schools and hospitals. And now use that to actively expand the amount of gas that we suck out of the ground and the amount of coal that we dig up right public subsidies should not be going to increase fossil fuel but that's where they go It's so

Dan Ilic 25:00

counterintuitive to dismantle arena like there's been, it's not being dismantled the beginning a new arrangement of the last 10 years, they've been there to invest in renewable energy. And now, they've been told to skip renewable energy and invest in these fossil fuel energy systems. And that is fifth. And one of the things Adam that I don't understand is, they said the board is going to remain the same. And you know, everyone there is going to be kind of focused on this new mission, but how many, how many people on that board are going to want to stay on their board, and they can't be in an organisation like that, that is actually facilitating the exact antithesis of the mission that they were there to create?

Adam Bandt 25:38

Well, they the government has set up a new steering committee to oversee this new genius of a plan.

Dan Ilic 25:44

Sounds like a fucking committee, they're setting up a fucking committee

Adam Bandt 25:48

that the head of Coca Cola is on it, but no one from renewable energy, right there. He's like the head of Coca Cola, I don't want what is going on here. The head of Coca Cola

Dan Ilic 25:58

makes sense when you're talking about carbon emissions, you get

Unknown Speaker 26:01

carbonated.

Adam Bandt 26:04

This is a great opportunity for soft drinks, I don't know. But this is, this is the direction that they're taking us. And he talks about hydrogen before, right. And like hydrogen, in a sense, is, in some ways could be the perfect fuel because you burn hydrogen attunes back into water. And there are you've got in South Korea, and in Japan, they're kind of they're starting to shift the vehicles to hydrogen, they're crying, they're looking for countries to export hydrogen to them. And so if you can make it renewably by splitting water, using renewable electricity, then you'd have basically an Australia is so well placed to do now.

Dan Ilic 26:41

Please tell me about so pleased to have a nation that has lots of sunshine and water. And that can use solar to create art. Is there one I'm not so sure? That's right. Is there a nation that is good by water? We need a nation that's good by water.

Adam Bandt 26:59

It's the time when good might actually mean something useful. And they but instead what what we're doing is as you alluded to enact going to subsidise subsidised through the Renewable Energy Agency and potentially through the other agencies as well. The Clean Energy Finance Corporation, using guests sucking more gas out of the ground and not existing gas opening up new gas field sucking it out, burning that to generate electricity using that electricity to split water to create hydrogen. And then according to some unicorn technology that doesn't exist, burying all the co2 emissions generated by that back underground. Like it's ridiculous, it is absolutely ridiculous. But when you consider that the gas and coal lobby have donated about $9 million to the establishment parties over the last few years, the whole thing starts to make more sense,

Lewis Hobba 27:48

Adam, we get some pretty good donations on the Patreon.

Unknown Speaker 27:54

thing for good biomar

Dan Ilic 27:55

this is I had this idea earlier this week, I was like what if we had a Kickstarter to raise $10 million to donate to both major parties to encourage them to limit emissions. It's almost like paying some kind of tax.

Adam Bandt 28:10

fantastic idea sounds like you might be in slightly in the wrong business. But they like the amount. It's a pretty good investment for the coal, oil and gas companies a good return on investment for them donate $9 million to liberal and labour and in return, you get to suck as much gas and coal out of Australia as you want. And while whilst we burn. And this is what is so distressing about this at the moment is that there doesn't seem to there seems to be I think Morrison's taking the approach that it's okay, I'm dealing with the climate crisis. And then like letting people believe that he's got it under control without telling the truth about the scale of the challenge that we're facing. Like we just do not have the capacity to expand our gas and coal production, let alone at public expense. Just It's so frustrating.

Lewis Hobba 28:57

Right? Can I can I ask as you got you and Dan, obviously, I'll know a lot more about the details than maybe Adam what like, we all have heaps of experts saying that this is a bad idea. What's their pitch, like apart from giving kickbacks to pay the donors? What What is their argument for being a good idea?

Adam Bandt 29:16

And they, they say, Oh, look, we need gas as a transition fuel as we switch over to renewables because renewables are intermittent. So we need something to balance them out. But I, we've got batteries now in Bay, the Chief Scientist said about that, you know, the chief scientist who just gave their glowing endorsement to carbon capture and storage also said, Look, oh, but actually, I think there's enough gas in the system already that we don't actually need more guests to do it. We've got enough gas fired power stations in the country already to be able to balance it out. If we wanted to get to, you know, 70 8090 100% renewables we wouldn't need to build a single new gas fired power station, according to the chief scientist. So their pitch kind of really is paper thin, but they're hoping that no one's going to press that Moment.

Dan Ilic 30:00

There's a there's another argument Angus Taylor has for jobs saying it's gonna it's going to create 130,000 jobs but, but nobody has seen how those jobs are actually going to come about. And there's another great thing. There's another great thing I read a tweet from sometimes a court saying that 400 megawatts of power delivered by gas plant had attached to it about 15 jobs. One of the big five consulting firms, Ernst and Young says there's about a million jobs worth of, of jobs there in renewables and that to completely change the way we operate. There's million jobs there to kind of reinvigorate and rebuild us build rebuild Australia as a carbon neutral industry. storyist, greenies Ernst and Young. This is

Adam Bandt 30:43

the whole point though, like it's getting he go to, you know, obviously not the US. So the US has got the, with the US, Donald Trump talks finally about our immigration and energy policies. And you can say why so we're kind of sadly leading the world in that respect. But you go to other places and, and climate, Germany, for example. And climate isn't as politicised in the way that it is here. And like there's just an increasing acceptance across the board, that we're heading towards a cliff at about 200 K's an hour and the coalition saying oh, well, let's slow down to 190. Before we go over the years labour saying or maybe it should be 150. But everyone else who's not in the pockets of the coal and gas industry is saying, Oh, hang on, look, something's wrong here. And we need to change course and do it pretty quickly and outside of Australia. As he said in your opening, we're going to front out to these global negotiations at the Conference of the Parties next year, with this terrible, terrible plan put forward by Angus Taylor, and we're going to be laughed out of the room and that sadly, Australia's these these agreements, work by consensus. And so Australia sits there, drags its heels and drags ambition down and you know, our kids are gonna pay for

Dan Ilic 31:56

what how do we kind of fight back at him? Like what, like, what is the what is it? I mean, this government's in for another little bit? How do you kind of push back in this kind of space where this is the optimum time for them to put something in because they've got a couple more years to run? And they're doing the hardest thing they possibly can right now, in the middle of the pandemic, when no one's looking? How do you push back?

Adam Bandt 32:19

Well, I'm kind of optimistic about this, actually. Because like in Melbourne, next to my seat is a couple of seats that the liberals hold, and one of them's the treasurer receipt, and they had to spend a million bucks holding that site, because the grains were on the verge of winning. And then they spent a million dollars telling the electorate how much they cared about climate change. And what a great plan, they had to deal with the climate crisis in the same in, in these inner city seats in Sydney, and increasingly in some regional seats as well. And I think they, they, they're thinking that we're in at the moment, we're riding high in the polls, because of the pandemic, we can get away with whatever we want, but people aren't stupid, and if you want is fuel in 2020, feels pretty long. And it feels like a long time ago, but over the summer, like we were people were losing their lives, people were losing their houses, a billion animals were perished in the fires that we saw in inner city, Melbourne, and Sydney and in Canberra. You know, you couldn't go about usual business because the the smoke was so thick, it was hazardous. And I think those kind of challenges and that kind of crisis hasn't gone away. And increasingly, people I think, across the political spectrum, are saying through this, and the polling bears that out, and it's just a matter of finding ways of bringing that political pressure to bear on the government, which is why the government even has to dress up, you know, coming back to the question before about what's the pitch, they have to dress up gas as a climate friendly solution. And you know, we've got the answer is to take the fight up to them in Parliament about this and labour doesn't know where it standing. They're talking about environmentally sustainable guests like clean coal, but I think increasingly, people know that I'm not going to tape it in the ground and I think come the next election. If we do our job right as the grains as as people who are concerned about this across the country, they're going to be in for a bit of a rude shock in in a couple of seats and in a very finely balanced Parliament where you've got the likes of zali steggall winning seats off the liberals and Helen Haynes in regional Victoria seats that were conservative seats now going to pro climate action, independence and to grains. I think a change is coming and it's not it's not gonna be that far away.

Dan Ilic 34:29

And what is Joffe? It's given doing? What's his play?

Adam Bandt 34:32

Well, he's the, you know, he's Anthony Albanese is handpicked resources spokesperson. So he's given the official line in the Labour Party and he represents a lot of the views that a large section of the Labour Party he's been persistently and the Labour Party's always had these people who events, the lines of the coal and gas industry just like the Liberal Party does as well. And I think he's pushing very, very hard to make sure that I mean, I don't know if you remember. But back when Julia Gillard was in strife, Joel Fitzgibbon was one of the first people to go on television and help tear it down and sit there and basically say, I've got no confidence in my prime minister. And I feel and I think that he's doing the same again, he's out there saying, look, this is what the Labour Party's position is going to be. And if I have to burn down the village to say that I will, and I think sadly, sadly, he's got a lot of support in the Labour Party.

Dan Ilic 35:28

Well, thanks for the optimistic end.

Adam Bandt 35:32

But I think he's got a lot of support, but I don't think it's where it's increasingly it's not where people are at, you know, right. But is this like, yes, let's have a plan for people in the Hunter Valley. I mean, I used to be, before I came to the ski guy represented workers in the Latrobe Valley in coal fired power stations, I think on the only, I don't know, if I'm the only member of parliament, I'm probably the only grain with a picture of the coal fired power station hanging on the wall. It was it was a gift to me from the workers in the unions in the Latrobe Valley after I helped him win a case after privatisation like we've got to have a plan to take to support people, including in the Hunter Valley. So like he's got, he's right to be saying I'm going to fight for the interests of people. But the long term interests of the people in the Hunter Valley or the Latrobe Valley is to is to make sure that their kids don't go to every Christmas Christmas holidays, wondering when the next bushfires going to hit. And so it's about the alternative that I think ultimately would satisfy even you know, the soldiers labour member in coal mining sites is a proper transition plan that looks after those workers gives them mining jobs in other areas that are needed for renewables. But at the moment, they haven't yet beat that bullet.

Dan Ilic 36:45

I think the frustrating thing right now is that now it's like crunch time now is like the time for action. Now is the time to get things done and sorted, and now is the time to do it. And we are doing every single thing that is the opposite of what needs to be done. And that there is no, there's no will there is no ambition. And there is literally only a group of malevolent actors who are doing their worst doing the absolute worst. And that is not what leadership is.

Adam Bandt 37:14

Well, they're the ones that this is where I guess I feel a bit optimistic about it, because but we were in a parliament where there's only got a couple of state majority. So all and we've got there on the cross bench you know, it's a, it's an interesting cross bench. That bit includes, you know, me and Bob katter. And and Wilkie and Helen Hansen's are unstable and, and Rebecca Sharkey. And there's, you know, put Bob katter to one side for the moment all the rest of us actually want to have a moment to act on climate now. All it would take is a couple of in the next election, if there's a small swing and a couple of seats fall, we back in 2010 territory of another power share in Parliament. And I think the prospect there of you know, and maybe another liberal loses their sake to a pro climate independent like zali steggall some way, maybe the greens pick up another seat somewhere, all of a sudden, bang, we are back in a power sharing pond again. And there will be a very, very strong willingness to take action on climate and I think like if you ask people now and the carbon price that we had that was actually working when we had minority Parliament the town yeah but repeal Do you think that effort repealing it was the right thing, people when when people are polled people say no, it wasn't the right thing we, you know, said we'd learnt we learn our lesson after having Tony Abbott. And I think we could be back in that situation again, very, very soon, within a year or two. And then I think things could move very, very quickly. And I think he's built up public pressure, and what ultimately become irresistible. So I feel a bit more optimistic about that.

Dan Ilic 38:51

Yeah, who knows, it could be like the NBN, they might just change their mind or like, you know, you know what, you know, we were wrong about that.

Adam Bandt 38:59

But this is how it works, right? That's what happened with the banking Royal Commission to like, we pushed and pushed and pushed on that. And they said, No, we're never gonna do it. We're never gonna do it, and then bang their tune around one day and said, we're gonna do it, but they're not gonna spend the next six months saying, Oh, yeah, the grains of rice, we better change our policy to them. But the pressure will build up behind the scenes because it's coming from the public and then bang, one day when they realise that their electoral success May May hinge on it, bang, they'll turn around and do something that's that's, and if we can't get this government to do it, I mean, I still think the pathway to action is to turf these government out and get back into a power sharing arrangement and then start counting climate pollution.

Dan Ilic 39:37

It's just the goal of this government right when marriage equality happened in Turnbull's walking around going here, yeah, we brought marriage equality, Australia. And let's go Mo's walk around going Yeah, well, we brought we brought fibre to the home to Australia is like yeah, we're gonna kill you and then fucking fix you up a little bit later, then you can thank us later. Adam van, thank you so much for joining us on irrational

Adam Bandt 39:58

fear. Thank you.

Dan Ilic 40:00

Now to take us out Geraldine, you've got a song all about welcome the audience back to live venues.

Geraldine Quinn 40:07

Yeah, well, yes, as a Victorian It was really wonderful to hear a bit of news about the music industry of Melbourne from dangerous but yeah, I've got a little song just about how it's been a bit weed for us people are used to being on stage in front of other humans. And yeah, I'd be more than happy to share it with you if you give me a moment to pick up my guitar

Dan Ilic 40:29

Taylor

Unknown Speaker 40:38

thanks for listening to the point today as we struggle through this buddy climb online for a while we don't know when we'll get back

Unknown Speaker 40:54

to even when it is different

Unknown Speaker 41:03

here's some other stuff we have

Unknown Speaker 41:09

all these news rattling through your head

Unknown Speaker 41:13

driving you mad imagine

Unknown Speaker 41:24

a brain that can be pretty wrong. But

Unknown Speaker 41:31

don't you

Unknown Speaker 41:38

Apache

Unknown Speaker 41:41

is catching just by making your way through the door. You might open Neverland call so we really hope we'll see you again. I just want to say thanks to Dan and for Louis for asking me to come on. Really great to meet you. And Adam, Adam.

Unknown Speaker 42:06

When it's safe for soldier to get back out there

Geraldine Quinn 42:11

whether it's on a balance sheet,

Unknown Speaker 42:13

or in the company

Unknown Speaker 42:17

please choose us.

Unknown Speaker 42:34

Lisa chooses catchy making your way through the door. You'll make soap and Neverland

Unknown Speaker 42:46

thing you've heard gives you

Unknown Speaker 42:50

remember our problems not

Dan Ilic 43:03

thank you so much Geraldine Quinn that's it for rational fee please think fame August for tonight Lizzy her God and Queen Louis haba and Adam bad got anything to plug. Jared ain't got anything to plug.

Geraldine Quinn 43:15

Oh please just look me up on YouTube and find my patreon I've been putting out a music video every month and all but one of them so far I've been in my

Unknown Speaker 43:23

unit.

Lizzy Hoo 43:24

Lizzie Who? I've got nothing to plug.

Dan Ilic 43:29

Adam bed What are you plugging?

Adam Bandt 43:32

Both greens

Unknown Speaker 43:34

and Lewis over? What have you got? Nothing new dad.

Dan Ilic 43:37

I've got something to plug next week. We have a US election special. We've got a crazy good lineup. We've got Dave Anthony from the dollar Francesca fiorentini from AJ plus and TYT and also the mooches. Joining us Anthony Scaramucci, formerly of the White House currently of the Lincoln project is joining us right here on the irrational fear podcast. If you want to hear today early join in on the Join us on the Patreon if you want to see it live and you are a Patreon member. You can watch it at 8am on Thursday morning on the Patreon. big thank you to Dave bluestein roupa de gas, Jacob Brown, Kate Holdsworth Bertha Foundation, all of our Patreon supporters as well. Please join us next week for US election special with Mitch until next week. There's always something to be scared of good night.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

📨 SUBSCRIBE TO OUR EMAIL LIST: http://www.arationalfear.com/

On the podcast this we speak about Regular Government Gaslighting, and shareholder activism with Brynn O’Brien from the Australasian Centre for Corporate Responsibility. Also we have Veronica Milsom, who has a brand new podcast out, Zero Waste Baby. We also have TikTok wunderkind Blake Pavey who is coming for all our jobs — also Lewis Hobba and Dan Ilic.

Big thanks to The Bertha Foundation, our Patreon Supporters and RODE Mics. Jacob Round, James Colley and David Bloustien.

📨 SUBSCRIBE TO OUR EMAIL LIST: http://www.arationalfear.com/

This is A Rational Fear's new monthly podcast.

It’s a long-form conversation with leaders in climate justice from around the world.

So… I’m thrilled to give you the first episode of the Greatest Moral Podcast Of Our Generation.

Up first is the bloke who coined the phrase “greatest moral problem of our generation”, Kevin Rudd.

We’re a couple of generations of PMs past that speech, and sadly the climate emergency still holds the title.

Fellow Bertha Fellow, Linh Do, and I do a wrap of the month’s climate news, then we get to the interview.

Kevin and I speak about climate change policy, good, bad, future, past and present. We also go deep on Rupert Murdoch, NBN, and media regulation. Kevin also has some great advice for leaders who want to work in the climate space.

If you’re a follower of #Auspol or just want to understand where we’re at with climate policy in Australia, this is a super interesting interview.

Cheers,

Dan Ilic

Host: Dan Ilic

Co-host: Linh Do

Post production: Jacob Round

Research: Kara Schlegl

Voice Over: Robbie McGregor

Artwork: Lauren Geaney

If you enjoy the podcast, chip in with Patreon. We’re at about 65.2% of covering the costs of making the show each week. Every little bit helps. You get to watch the live recording of the show on Thursday nights at 8pm, and access our Discord community – it’s kind of like a chat room where we bounce ideas around for the writing of the show throughout the week.

Thanks:

Big thanks to The Bertha Foundation, our Patreon Supporters and RODE Mics.

Kevin Rudd 0:00

I'm getting a Remington manual typewriter and cigars and load Jamaica rum. I'm taking lessons a TAFE course in bullfighting despite global warming, a rational fear is adding a little more hot air with long form discussions with climate leaders. Good.

This is called Don't be fried the heat waves and drought greatest mass extinction Morrow we're facing a manmade disaster podcast, climate criminals

shiana ration

Unknown Speaker 0:38

all of this with global warming and a lot of it's a hoax book right, a small podcast about generation.

Unknown Speaker 0:46

For short,

Dan Ilic 0:47

yes, welcome to the first gumpert brought to you by irrational fear. I'm Daniel H and co hosting up the top is Linda Gatlin.

Linh Do 0:55

JOHN, how are you

Dan Ilic 0:56

now? Good dad. You're the first person to hear the new intro. What do you think? Have a

Linh Do 1:00

no pressure right greatest more podcast of our time none whatsoever. I'm ready to rock and roll.

Dan Ilic 1:06

I actually it's actually greatest moral podcast of our generation. I myself have been calling of our time for so long. But I have went back to check the original source text and it was generation.

Linh Do 1:19

Well as a millennial, my generation i thought was the only one that mattered. So time generation say same for me, it doesn't matter.

Dan Ilic 1:27

So the second Monday of each month, we'll be bringing you long form conversations with climate leaders from all around Australia and the world. Do you want us to talk to Lynn? I mean,

Linh Do 1:35

it feels like such an obvious pick to say Greta tune Berg, but I'm also super keen to hear about those people that have made the decision to say leave their jobs in the oil and gas industry. Like I think that is a real sort of moral and ethical dilemma.

Dan Ilic 1:49

Yeah, I can imagine if I was earning six figures in the oil and gas industry, I don't think I'd have to take a second before leaving those. Now Lynne and I are going to be talking about three stories. about climate change that piqued your interest this month. Let's start off with yulian what some what's kind of caught your eye this month?

Linh Do 2:06

Well, one of the things that's definitely caught my eyes, it's just all the temperature sort of record setting scenarios that are happening. I got to go to Antarctica last year and remember it being over 10 degrees when I was there, we just just felt like wild for the icy wild west did this last month we've seen la record its hottest day ever. clocking in at close to 49 degrees Celsius, which, for me feels like Mad Max has returned.

Dan Ilic 2:33

Well, it's funny to say Mad Max at a place called stunt ranch in the Santa Monica Mountains. It got up to 50 degrees Celsius 122 degrees Fahrenheit, which is crazy. I mean, it I mean, you wouldn't even have to pretend it was hot there like it was there. I think the problem with them those kinds of temperatures in LA there are so many celebrities who can't go outside in case their faces melt away. I think that's probably the biggest problem for those people. There.

Linh Do 3:00

makeup and hot weather just like things that are growing together.

Dan Ilic 3:04

One other interesting one I saw this week that I thought was really fascinating was to do with wind farms. Now, Lynn, what are some of the most common reasons why people fight against wind turbines in their neighborhood?

Unknown Speaker 3:18

Ah,

Linh Do 3:19

because it's ugly. It's either that they're super ugly or it's from an original twitcher. That is to say a bird watcher because they're killing all the birds. Yeah,

Dan Ilic 3:27

that's right. That's right bird strikes is a big deal with with wind farms. Donald Trump was right on wind farms when it comes to bird strikes. Birds get whacked pretty fast. The blades go past at about 240 kilometers an hour but some very clever Norwegian scientists have worked out that by painting just one of the blades black on a wind turbine they can cut bird strikes down by 70% 70%.

Linh Do 3:54

so impressive and so cool that the other two turbines are still why because you know that helps reflect the heat and absorption. Okay.

Dan Ilic 4:02

Yes, that's right. Well, what turbine lives matter? Is that something that's probably not saying don't worry about though

Linh Do 4:08

I think it's all turbines matter, otter matter, because renewable energy is the future

Dan Ilic 4:13

or turbines better. That's correct. And Lynn, The Kids Are All Right.

Linh Do 4:18

Well, I feel like they're doing a bit better than my millennial generation that I just talked about before. We also saw this last month a really cool sort of instance of first ever in Australia where a class action has been filed by some teenagers against the Australian Government hoping to put an injunction into an extension to

Dan Ilic 4:37

coal mine. That's incredible. What is the chance that they can prevent this coal mine which I think they're talking about the Whitehaven coal mine in Canada, trying to get it off the minister's desk what's the chance I can get that injunction going?

Linh Do 4:50

I mean, it feels like an impossible and audacious task but we've seen really cool examples in the US and in like the Netherlands where young people, older people have been able to governments to court over climate change and have actually prevented coal mines from opening

Kevin Rudd 5:05

to listening to the greatest moral podcast about generation.

Dan Ilic 5:12

Now to the interview, the first guest on the greatest moral podcast of our generation is former prime minister Kevin Rudd, who wants cold climate change, the greatest moral problem of our generation. It was a pretty interesting conversation about where we are and where we should be going in terms of climate change, and how we got here, and how hard it is to make big things happen in Parliament. There's also quite a bit of Murdoch bashing In this episode, I think he compares, meaning rupert murdoch to Gollum, so definitely worth listening out for. For me as a young person interested in politics, the Kevin oh seven election was remarkable, as it offered quite a stark contrast to john Howard. And he was kind of Kevin Rudd was kind of the first leader of a party to have a really aggressive approach to climate action. And I don't think anyone has dead since

Linh Do 6:00

I mean, I feel people have did and then ever has happened and people have again become really terrified of this irrational, slash, sometimes rational fear. And Kay Rob was actually one of the first politicians that I ever got to vote, not obviously directly for their parliamentary system. But when I came of age and got to, like go to the ballot for the first time, so it was exciting to actually have someone talk about climate change. And then, well, you know, history happened.

Dan Ilic 6:26

And now there are people coming up who are doing class actions who've never even heard of Kevin Rudd.

Linh Do 6:31

Yep. And they get to probably two election cycles.

Dan Ilic 6:34

Well, you know, something here is Kevin Rudd. God is it

Kevin Rudd 6:39

today, good to be with you, Kevin. Oh, seven. I'm gearing up for Kevin 27.

Dan Ilic 6:44

The return the return,

Kevin Rudd 6:47

finally met Kevin 37. So by which stage I would only be at I think

Dan Ilic 6:52

I look if it's Joe Biden, it's good enough for you?

Kevin Rudd 6:54

Well, I'm about to say I mean, I've just been my prime by then.

Dan Ilic 6:58

Now, Kevin to the verify your identity because it's 2020. And technology is so good these days and people listening to the podcast could think, you know, actually talking to a bot from Russia here. I've got 11 questions, just to verify your identity. And if you get eight of them correct, we can continue on with the interview. Not the problem. Great. Here we go. First question. True or false. Kevin Rudd once worked as a house cleaner for Laurie Oakes?

Kevin Rudd 7:25

Absolutely through

Dan Ilic 7:27

Congress, which coalition minister did Kevin Rudd once compared to being caught between a hound and a hydrant on greenhouse gas?

Kevin Rudd 7:36

That would have been

Unknown Speaker 7:40

sort of Howard or Abbott

Dan Ilic 7:43

Do you need a clue as to clue you were you were his counterpart when you Shadow Minister for Foreign Oh,

Kevin Rudd 7:52

okay. So it would have been doubling down on Kevin rods favorite swear words Ah, If

Dan Ilic 8:05

true or false fair shake of the source bottle was made up by Kevin Rudd.

Kevin Rudd 8:10

False who was a preexisting Queensland expression which I simply adapted for national political purposes.

Dan Ilic 8:18

According to AV essays Australia talks program, what percentage of Australians think that climate change is real and what real action

Kevin Rudd 8:27

84%

Dan Ilic 8:28

Oh, and what percentage of Australians think that politicians are out of touch with real Australians on climate change?

Kevin Rudd 8:35

8.4%

Dan Ilic 8:37

actually, it's 84% the same amount. Now Kevin on a scale of one to 10 how responsible is Kevin rod for that 84%

Kevin Rudd 8:51

if one is on not responsible for anything, and 10 is on totally responsible for Everything I'd give myself of probably about a three

Dan Ilic 9:06

I actually actually have written here I would have accepted three to six so you're on the lower end of the scale well then you got that correct. Finished.

Kevin Rudd 9:13

Do I do the mandatory renewable energy target I did try twice to legislate the carbon price will give me in houses with solar panels.

Dan Ilic 9:23

What else am I supposed to do in three years guys? Finish this sentence Kevin Rudd once supported clean coal but now thinks there is a problem it's called finish this sentence Kevin Rudd once back carbon capture and storage that now thinks

Kevin Rudd 9:40

carbon capture and storage the four associated technologies have lived yet to be fully proven.

Dan Ilic 9:48

If Kevin Rudd could have his time again he would rename the resource super profits tax what

Kevin Rudd 9:54

the screw you Rio Tex.

Dan Ilic 9:57

I also would have accepted the Aussie dividend The HSV grant and the birthright money pit

Kevin Rudd 10:03

would have accepted the screw urea effects. But it's a blast indigenous cave sides that Rio

Dan Ilic 10:09

that Rio, Rio Tinto, of course. Now final question to verify your identity Kevin Rudd without using the word brown or green, Australia has lost a decade of climate action because

Unknown Speaker 10:23

because

Kevin Rudd 10:29

Abba always put politics above policy and found some willing accomplices on the way through. Now, they just do have different coloration.

Dan Ilic 10:45

The maps here, yes, I can verify that we are indeed talking with Prime Minister Kevin Rudd. Thank you, Kevin. That was very nice of you.

Kevin Rudd 10:55

I am not a bot.

Dan Ilic 10:57

Not about not about you have a very better world. accent the first kind of way to kick off this This podcast is all about people who have been at the front of climate action and trying to implement climate action. I kinda want to take you back to the first day of the launch. Jessica Ross tweeted this on New Year's Eve 2019 2020 earlier this year, all of Australia was pretty much on fire and she tweeted is now the right time to share that when we moved into the lodge in 2007. The sole remaining disk in the DVD player was the great global warming swindle. Happy New Year. Do you remember that memory Did you watch it as a family?

Kevin Rudd 11:38

Though we just sort of had a jaw dropping moment as we discovered this thing. Whether that was the last thing that the the seal regime played or whether it was just a sticker brought up your nose? I'm not quite sure. Can you think it was telling the truth?

Dan Ilic 11:54

Can you remember saying it and what we think what did you think first thing when you when you saw that? disk in the display.

Kevin Rudd 12:03

Well, I think I thought about john Winston, you know what a waste is a guy who was in office for 12 years and purely within a conservative political paradigm. He couldn't should have seen it in his own political self interest to reach over and to take this ground from us. But he couldn't sum it up. Of course, at the last minute, you know, that PDF shergold then hit a prime minister's department convinced him to go to the oh seven election with an emissions trading scheme policy. But he taught wasn't in NAB. It certainly wasn't in it even though avid back to down at the time, but I think it is fairly to grasp its its capacity to sustain his own Prime Ministership. Instead, I was puzzled about your file against a man for who he is, and he Dig conservative belief structure, but I'm trying to operate within the grain of his own political survival sort of strategy, which is to say, Hmm, if I could do that I would broaden my tent and hold on for longer and keep bloody Castello away for another 46 years.

Dan Ilic 13:17

Do you ever, ever thinks how things might have played out differently had Castello rolled? power to that point?

Kevin Rudd 13:26

I've never been an alternative history guy, which is what if, what if, what if, what if life is complicated enough when you just do do do rather than have a whole bunch of you know, post facto reflections on what could have been? So you, you dealt the cards, you play with the cards that you dealt with, you make the best decisions possible and you played as hard as you can to get the results that you need. Sometimes it works, and sometimes you fall screaming under your face.

Dan Ilic 13:58

I'm gonna take you back to Your maiden speech in dynamite is a great line in there that I want to share to the audience. It says, I also believe the government should not turn in on themselves, but instead have a fundamental responsibility to pursue the public code internationally in the promotion of regional and global security, democracy and economic development and the protection of the planet. How do you feel about that statement now? And was it hard to live up to those ideals in your time in office?

Kevin Rudd 14:28

I've always had a view that, you know, politics has got to be about vision. And unless you are painting the vision, which that statement does, and you just parodied in my earlier remarks, that climate change the greatest moral challenge of our generation, unless you're actually putting that up there as the goalpost, you're never going to get there. Seriously. So if it's all about one little bit of incremental change after another, and everyone uncertain about what the end point is, well, guess what? Progress is going to be pretty marginal. So I have no problems with that the alternative is the nation has no vision it has no mission statement as a result, we just drift on an all the lead drift into oblivion include, including on climate,

Dan Ilic 15:15

what is the future of climate action for Australia?

Unknown Speaker 15:19

I think

Kevin Rudd 15:22

number one is to deliver real political change to make it happen. And I hate to say this, but the current mob don't have it within their DNA to do it. And it's just the truth. If I thought that they could have done this Damascus road on this stuff, I wouldn't hold this view. So this mob have to have a wooden stake, whacked through their heart in terms of what is then done by way of substantive action My view for what it's worth is a, we need to move north further with the mandatory renewable energy target beyond 20. When I brought that in, they thought it was impossible, because then renewables contribution to total electricity supply was 4%. And it's now 20%. Legislation matters. So go north of that. Secondly, on the carbon price, I've always supported a floating carbon price to bring disciplines into the show. Thirdly, we'll be on the receiving end and we should also be on the exporting end of carbon tariffs. That is if there are freeloaders in the system internationally, and something the Morison government haven't worked out. Is there going to have carbon tariffs put on us by the Europeans? I think definitely And under Biden administration, probably possibly the Americans. And so that should be a third part of the the armory. And the fourth, of course, is to have genuinely ambitious set of national targets for us within the framework of the Paris treaty, Paris Agreement.

Dan Ilic 17:18

The era T is a bit of legislation that you help foster through. And it's one of the remaining bits of climate legislation that is quite effective. How was that ever at risk of disappearing? You know, when? In your time Did you ever see it as a vulnerable mechanism?

Kevin Rudd 17:40

Yeah, I mean, the organized lobby against us when we brought in the emrich was huge. You may recall the Senate vote was actually pretty tight. When you say we facilitated through or fostered it through that meant getting the numbers and it was hard. It was tough. Politics is a rough whole business for me and trying to do the right thing. And then the Tories on many occasions substance that tried to get it, tried to reduce it, tried to emasculate it and so it's always been under attack from various parts of the of the fossil fuel lobby in this country. So I think it's it's great as mortal danger was firstly, getting the numbers to get through because it was a parallel debate to the cprs. And the numbers would tight in both cases. And secondly, it came under again its second greatest threat in 20 1314 when Conan the Barbarian took over, aka Tony Abbott and and wanted to kill it. But again, he couldn't Marshal the numbers in the Senate. By the way, it's the only workhorse on climate change in this country. Everything else is sort of stuff and nonsense. But the real thing that's worked, I don't know direct

Dan Ilic 18:54

action in the green army. That's pretty fantastic. He exhausts

Kevin Rudd 18:57

the The The truth is, here we are in 2021 is working the mandatory renewable energy target. Plus if you like, you know, 20% of the housing stock getting subsidized solar panels, our work on on the installation of homes, frankly, despite the difficulties with that program, reduced energy demand, so demand side management solar panels in terms of the subsidies we put in there, but most critically, the driving factor was was the medic renewable energy target.

Dan Ilic 19:37

We kind of hear hear about the fossil fuel lobbyists and the lobbying that goes on in Parliament for you. How did that manifest on a daily basis? What does it actually look like when we hear you know, the fossil fuel lobby is is in force and

Kevin Rudd 19:51

what it looks like is for example, when I was in Copenhagen, and and hadn't been to bed for two or three days and again, Heading the Copenhagen Accord, which, frankly, was the draft of what became the Paris Agreement, the Copenhagen Accord of 2009 became the Paris agreement of 2015. That's the reality because that's when we crossed the two degrees centigrade threshold through sheer you know, negotiating effort. So what does the carbon lobby look like? The carbon lobby looks like them being on the phone, to the likes of the Baba boys in the Labour Party, some of the factional chieftains from the right, who then get on the phone to the prime minister and say, mate, this is a disaster mate, you got to kill this maid you got to kill carbon pricing altogether, because Abbott's on the march and the industry is going nuts. That's otherwise called Mark arbib. And that's certainly the position I picked up from. Let's call it the the fringe dwellers of the Labour Party in the labor movement, who've always been pretty solid To the political and lobbying pressure of the carbon lobby

Dan Ilic 21:04

for you to push back on those folks, what does that look like from your perspective? Like how do you put your foot on the ground and push back upon those in your party who want to want to tear down what is really important, groundbreaking

Kevin Rudd 21:20

legislation, my first response to our bid, which is probably why I lost him in terms of the future, the parliamentary leadership of the Labour Party, and therefore the Prime Ministership was when I just told him to bugger off. I remember this conversation very clearly just told him to get lost. Could you use

Dan Ilic 21:35

the exact language?

Kevin Rudd 21:37

It started not with B. But I think it started with a letter several along in the alphabet from the four extra letters. And and I said, this is what we're committed to doing. We're going to do it. And then the range of political arguments so they throw against just why you can't do it. And then the second one, which was much harder was when Julia Gillard came in the office into sorry, Swami kirribilli in January and said, there's no way that I can support a double the solution based on the carbon pollution reduction scheme, the cprs, having by that stage been rejected by the Senate twice. And so I thought, well, that's interesting. And then third wave was when she and Wayne Swan teamed up to say that we had to, they wanted to abolish the cprs altogether. And I said no, because we can't get through the Senate. We'll defer it for two years. That was a decision that have been subsequently was leaked against me.

Dan Ilic 22:45

It's been said that that has been that decision was that you kicked it down the line and you know, really kicked into the grass as a low priority.

Kevin Rudd 22:53

Here is the reality is we couldn't get it through the Senate. So I deferred it two years from 2010 to 20 1213 from memory There was a reason because it was going to enter into the new Kyoto commitment period. So that's why we I did that. But that was my compromise position against the internal effectiveness of the carbon lobby, working on the likes of Gilad and Swan and RB have been the bubble boys who ultimately engineered the coup who wanted to kill it all together. And I remember those conversations very clearly.

Dan Ilic 23:22

It feels like probably the last 30 years that every leadership decision has almost been at the wheel of the fossil fuel industry. Is that an unfair statement to kind of make?

Kevin Rudd 23:38

Not really, I mean, I actually took them on on two fronts. One was the carbon price where I was defeated. And I took them on again on the results super profits tax, Emma's again defeated so the On both those scores, yes, they had the final cyber, they had a huge fight on the way through.

Dan Ilic 24:05

But do you think do you do you think that they are ultimately responsible for you being pulled out of office in the first place?

Kevin Rudd 24:13

I think they're one of the contributing lobbies. I mean, these things are never neat. You got a cocktail of Shakespearean political ambition, people who just want to get promoted, become Prime Minister and get a bigger ministerial job and a bigger kind of bigger briefcase, you get a gigantic briefcase when you become Prime Minister.

Dan Ilic 24:29

And now you don't actually use the ministers man is the prime minister. That's right. It's got super 10 top

Kevin Rudd 24:37

jumbo size briefcase on the side has very important person. Yeah, right. So anyway, as you know, political ambition is writ large. So that's there. Everyone's ambitious in politics. Me too, can say that. You know, I'm sort of spring burden on these questions. But in case of knocking off the first time Prime Minister has he got individual political ambition, Gilad wanted to be in charge was prepared to throw anything and everything at it. Secondly, you've then got the Murdoch media who wanted to kill us by this stage, because we departed from what they would describe as an acceptable Blairite script. We're rolling out the National Broadband Network, we were determined to act on climate change. And the link between the carbon lobby in the big results companies in the Murdoch media is acute. Then thirdly, underpinning that you've got them the the big fossil fuel companies themselves.

Dan Ilic 25:33

At the time, I remember the cocktail hours in New York in 2010. And I was glued to my browser. at one o'clock in the morning reading what was happening and just completely shocked as to what was going on at the time. I seem to remember that the argument from those in labor that wanted to get rid of you was that you were impossible to work with where you impossible to work with.

Kevin Rudd 26:00

That's just a bullshit argument was a post facto construction. I mean, real it's really interesting is that there was an academic of the dime. And his name was Patrick Whelan, who was compiling a book on the operating style of the Rudd government. So we'd gone round and interviewed all these guys and girls, all anonymously, by the way, and they all gave copious accounts of how well the cabinet process was working, what a good Chair of cabinet was, etc. So they contemporaneous accounts actually don't lend themselves to that view. And you can understand that when people have executed a bloody first term political coup against the democratically elected Prime Minister, that they're going to search around for some sort of other excuse. Look, it was ambition, political ambition, they wanted my job. And the case of the factions they want me out of the road because I couldn't abide the factions of the Labour Party because they kept trying to stand over people on various policy questions and personal appointments so therefore you can you embed a narrative in if I was so bad to work for then when I came back as prime minister Why did practically all the staff I had working for me first time around, come back and work from the second time round? I mean, if it was all that bad I don't quite understand that.

Dan Ilic 27:25

You must have good snacks. You must have good snacks.

Kevin Rudd 27:29

But even even detractors like Simon crane would say that it was very good cheer of cabinet everyone gonna say we did things methodically, etc. So look, just understand that in politics, people are always going to invent their alibi after the event, and this was one of the alibis invented and you'll notice it's kind of drifted away, they don't talk about it. Any anymore. And if you go to if you're really interested in this subject, and your listeners are the autobiography I wrote called the pm years, it actually kind of deconstructs all of this in some considerable detail 1400 footnotes for you and your nerdy listeners.

Dan Ilic 28:11

very thorough. Kevin, very far have you? Do you think when you were talking about a plan for 20, keeping the air at having a price on carbon? Do you think it'll ever be possible to get price and emissions ever again in Australia?

Kevin Rudd 28:29

I hope so. That's certainly what I work towards, because it's part of the armory is the total armory, but it's part of the armory. You see, can what's the end point here and the end point is to bring down greenhouse gas emissions to the extent necessary that we don't have global temperature increases beyond 1.5. We're not on track for that, you know, the mathematics if we did, everything we agreed to in Paris would get one third of that distance, not, not the and that's absent the next commitment period under Paris, let alone People actually doing that which they commit to. So to get to that end point, what can you do a on the energy supply side, you transfer out of fossil fuels into renewables. B, you can do that by legislation as we did through the mandatory nubile energy target. You can also do it by making carbon that much more expensive to use. And there's a third way you can do it, which is where Obama got to the end, which is that you bring in a bunch of regulatory measures to screw down on the industry itself, other than through a carbon price. So I would strongly say to the the carbon lobby, be careful what you do, if you don't want to carbon price, and you can be regulated out of existence. Be very careful.

Dan Ilic 29:50

It's pretty interesting to kind of say machinations right now. A lot of people are talking about this election in the US as probably If Trump gets back in will be the death knell for any kind of global negotiation on climate. Do you think if Trump does get in that, that climate action, meaningful climate action is over on a global scale?

Kevin Rudd 30:16

No, because, I mean, on climate, Trump, you know, like Abbott is kind of the Antichrist. That's just the truth of it. But guess what, enough major corporations in the world have now become the object of shareholder action or action on the part of their finances. And so if you're out there with a pension fund at the moment, and courtesy of previous labour, governments national superannuation policy, you all are, look at where they're investing and apply pressure. It's having an effect. It's having an effect through the annual general meeting. shareholder lobbies, etc. So, therefore, we should not despair. If Conan the Barbarian cousin gets reelected in the United States, it will be retro again, but action by state governments, municipal governments, but frankly primarily shareholder action through not financing these projects for the future

Dan Ilic 31:26

is critical. You talk about other governments and in Australia in particular, why is this such a gap between what's happening on a federal level with climate action and the states the states kind of seem to be on the front foot with climate action and really taking it seriously. All the states are dedicated to net zero by 2050. What is that? What is that chasm? And, and why does it exist?

Kevin Rudd 31:56

I think it's because of the power of the car. lobby federally, and it's just been more deeply entrenched. They concentrate their resources. Remember, just on a related matter when we brought in the results of super profits tax, the amount of money which Rio and bhp threw at that one, as a campaign, we're looking at a worchester, around about a 90 or 100 million dollars, that buys a truckload of advertising. And I'm talking about a decade ago. So, therefore, you put them together plus then their national mouthpiece, the Murdoch media. You got paid advertising from the carbon lobby, directly or indirectly. And then you've got the Murdoch media who have always been their mouthpiece and certainly the greatest opponent of systematic action on climate change in this country, put them together apply to the federal government, in federal politics. It's very hard to I just that's a really kind of circumvented that, and really looked at the science and really tried to appear to be doing meaningful things. As the fossil fuel lobby dropped the ball when it comes to interacting the states or,

Dan Ilic 33:12

or I just can't i can't reconcile of how the federal government can't acknowledge where the states are at and meet the states where they are, and just do the right thing.

Kevin Rudd 33:23

I think it's because the

Dan Ilic 33:26

I'm talking I'm also sorry, I'm sorry, Kevin. I'm also talking about both parties here. I feel like liberal and labor.

Kevin Rudd 33:31

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I've been talking about my home. I'm not, you know, I mean, I've, I've explained some of the failings on our side. I mean, the bottom line is, for God's sake, you know, the Green Party, joined with liberals to defeat the carbon price. Back in 2009. The Labour Party did what it did in terms of the coup in 2010, for the reasons that we outlined. And then Abbott Upon his election repealed the the carbon price, which then then existed. So there's some responsibility to share with a lap around. Let's be, let's be blunt about this. The liberal National Party have been ideologically committed to destroying the carbon price for a very long time. And had they had a reverse view, we would be 10 years down the track,

Dan Ilic 34:26

but it but it feels like you're talking to two different countries. When you're talking about the state's position and the in the federal position like now, it's 2020. Surely the federal government can just flick a switch and jump on board because what they're doing is moot because the states are putting in so much pressure and putting in so many mechanisms to meet those targets.

Kevin Rudd 34:48

That's true. So to answer your question, as a matter of analysis, I assume that the carbon lobby spend list time, less effort and less money on stake counterparts they do federally point 1.2. I just notice and note that Murdoch does not run a campaign against state political parties and state governments on carbon. The only exception I would say would be, you know, they're in and out of the Adani debate in the, in the case of Queensland politics in the last federal election. And they may be back on that next time around as well. So I just think it's differential treatment. And ultimately, they know that the taxation powers here are a federal power. So that's where the why they put all their their bucks into that particular basket, I think,

Dan Ilic 35:38

yes, my best. There makes sense. Now I've got some questions from my Patreon supporters. Kevin, I hope you for them. Simon, who is Simon Holmes, a court asks you what if you work collaboratively with the libs in 2008 to push through the cprs rather than roasting Turnbull slowly, all the way up to late 2009. Do you think you might have gotten over the line rather than giving an opening for the rise of Tony Abbott

Kevin Rudd 36:01

Well, thank you Mr. Han's, do your homework and get your facts straight, and have a long chat to Penny Wong, who was my Minister for climate change. And he did all the negotiations with with Turnbull, and with MacFarlane, her brief for me, he was to get a deal. And if you look at our original draft, the cprs. And what we ended up with line after line after line, we compromised in order to make it possible for Turnbull to deliver this to his party room. And in the end, what Turnbull took to his party room was what they signed up to, and believe they could prevail on remember Turnbull at the end of the day, lost by one vote. So it's pretty easy for Mr. Holmes a court to say, oh, in advance you should have known precisely, Kevin how much further you should have compromised on your on your carbon price, your carbon pollution reduction scheme. At the time in order to give not turnable a one seat loss for the leaders or one vote loss for the leadership but a five vote majority. I think it's a little a little defying of the logic to to suggest that anyone could have that level of as it were. For side anyway ask Penny she had a complete negotiating brief to do it

Dan Ilic 37:21

on on that. Do you regret not building a bridge with the greens at that point? folks in the green said that they never had a phone call with anyone from from your side.

Kevin Rudd 37:32

That's just a complete lie, lie, lie. It's not an untruth. It is actually a deliberate lie. And the reason is, Penny Wong was dealing with the greens all the way through. Why was she doing it because all the greens are in the Senate. They're not announcer representatives and that's where the numbers were. So day in day out she'd been negotiating with the greens day in day out should be negotiating with Turnbull, and with MacFarlane. And when she came in and said, we've got a deal, you know, I was delighted. So this whole idea of having some perverse interest in roasting Turnbull slowly. It's just a nonsense. It's again, it's a post facto narrative on the part of the Green Party. And they sought to exonerate themselves for just absolute bloody mindedness, by the way you want. The final proof of that is the cprs regime, the carbon pollution reduction scheme is a more rigorous regime in terms of its coverage of the economy than the subsequent carbon tax that they agreed with with Gilad after the 2010 election, the one that was then ultimately repealed by by by Abbott. So the Green Party just have no credit on this.

Dan Ilic 38:49

And even though that was repealed, did you end that was not your particular policy at that point in time. When it was repealed. Were you How did you feel about that, that repealing was it Personal was he we joyful that it got repaired because it wasn't yours or where you're upset that,

Kevin Rudd 39:04

you know sick in the stomach. And you may remember that in the 2013 election in order to seek to preserve it, remember the politics of it was this Gilad political failure was this a, she used opposition to the carbon price and the carbon pollution reduction scheme as part of her push against me for the leadership? that's proven, let's just establish That's a fact. Secondly, she then has a near death experience in the 2010 election, scrambled time with the minority government, the Green Party then walk in and say, we're only going to support you if you put a price on carbon. And so suddenly, it's a carbon tax and not a floating price. And the problem is Gilad has promised in the previous election campaign that they will not That there will never be a carbon tax under a government will try and leave. At that point she killed the political credibility of her government at that point, and everything was downhill from then. So when I came back What did I do to get around that? I said, the first thing that we'll be doing is to legislate to turn the fixed price into a floating price to Megan do emissions trading scheme, thereby removing the political bugbear. This was a complete election breach by gilla.

Dan Ilic 40:29

I've got another question from one of our Patreon supporters. Claire Jenkins writes about this point in time right now we're in with with COVID and the economics of that we're living through. She asked if he was in power, what policies or industries would he prop up to help push Australia out of its current economic mess?

Kevin Rudd 40:47

What I do is complete the bloody National Broadband Network in the manner in which it was originally conceived as fiber optic to the pregnancy. Yes, and because Can you Imagine where we'd be right now, if there was no NBN at all. So we launched this thing, but back then 2008 was to be fiber optic to the premises. The other mob got elected in 2013 killed it by making it fiber optic to the node in order to look after Murdoch and his mates because they didn't want Netflix to be able to go straight through to people's homes. As a result, we have a much weaker broadband, as you know. But unless we launched the National Broadband Network when we did, there would be no national broadband at present, you'd have bits and pieces in various cities, large cities, but that's about it. So what would I do, given that where COVID-19 has taken us, which is the digital economy is the future unless this country has a fully functioning digital network with fiber optic to everyone else, everyone, small business, etc. We ain't gonna be competing. So I put the cache finish the job that we should have completed, had not the other mob taken Rupert's interest into account and killed it.

Dan Ilic 42:10

A lot of a lot has been written about that and when you hear it clear cut out of your mouth. Do you? Is it weird to kind of say How is it? I guess what I'm asking for Do you have a certain sense of shot in Florida with the way Fox tells subscribe is being dropped off?

Kevin Rudd 42:29

Well, I think Fox Fox hills ship program programming anyway, but look, Murdock knew back then and one of the reasons he turns out viciously against us is because of fiber optic to the premises. He just didn't want Netflix competition at that point. He wanted to be able to as it were evolved foxtel into a different business over time, because of you know, the residual investments in cable which he laid out a long time before that. So I basically marched in, and unbeknownst to myself, because I was just advancing a National Broadband Network for the good of the economy and for people working from home, etc for the future. I torpedoed his commercial strategy over bloody foxtel which was his only remaining cash cow in the country. So am I happy that fox Hill is going through the floor? Nah, I don't. I don't enjoy other people's pain. But God, you could see this coming.

Dan Ilic 43:28

It's so strange. Like if the NBN had been built to its fruition to its original design, Fox will probably be in a better bad, better position, they probably had to build a robust streaming business off the back of high capacity streaming.

Kevin Rudd 43:43

If I had any imagination, that's exactly what they would have done. But they had nothing they wanted to protect. What was then a billion dollars a year cash cow, because everyone in those days was watching for till there was nothing else and it costs subsidized. Murdoch's real power, which is his national print monopoly, all of which will last making the most of which will last me.

Dan Ilic 44:01

Let's talk about that going to say rupert murdoch, I seem to remember you going to say riverbed rocks before you ran? What was that conversation? Like in the room? And how do you? How do you have that conversation? And what do you talk about when you when you tell rupert murdoch, you're running for Prime Minister?

Kevin Rudd 44:20

Well, before anyone accuses me of being hypocrite, I've been doing that.

Dan Ilic 44:24

No, no, no, no, no one's accusing you of being hypocrite. I just want to know, what is it like? You know, what is this?

Kevin Rudd 44:30

What is it like for your listeners to understand why someone like me would do that? If the guy has 70% of the print media, and that he is definitionally hostile to labor, then isn't it better that I can as it were get to a stage where maybe in the 2007 election, we get 5050 coverage rather than 99 one which is the norm against labor, so that's why I did it. Really reduce

Dan Ilic 44:57

we all know why you do it. You know, when I every He does it. Every single buddy does it Kevin, what I want to know is what is it? Like? What's the feeling like of waiting in the lobby to say rip up?

Kevin Rudd 45:10

And what is it like waiting to shake? It's like waiting to shake hands with Gollum, you know? And then there's this thing that sits in the room opposite view saying, oh, precious, my precious, my precious. You have to be able to kind of understand the analogy there. I hope your listeners do. I think

Dan Ilic 45:29

Gollum is widely publicized throughout popular culture to get back.

Kevin Rudd 45:32

I don't know, you know, I'm just, I'm just 200 from the Queensland country. I'm not sure but so you're dealing with Gollum. And you got to understand that Gollum has got precious in his hands. And that's his share price. And he is a deeply far right conservative individual. So you just working with what you got the only thing that I could find that his interests in mind overlapped He believes in something called Small Business formation. And so, and because, you know, Trey's, my wife set up her own small business, which became a big business over time, we can talk about that. But beyond that, you're kind of dealing with a guy whose worldview is out there to the point where, you know, Attila the Hun would stop and blush at a particular point in that conversation.

Dan Ilic 46:27

And what were you feeling that what was your What was your gut feeling during that meeting? How are you handling that?

Kevin Rudd 46:34

Okay, well, you're in a negotiation, you know, and he's been around longer than me. He's dealt with political leaders, a lot of them before me. And so am I, of course anxious thing to get a better outcome for the Labour Party would otherwise be the case because I am. And she knows something. It's impoossible Tto warm to this guy there is there's nothing personal, personally redeeming about him. It's just, you know, and I've had many interactions with him. It's just nothing to talk about the values that I can identify of any redeeming quality, it's transactional. It's about the share price, and it's about power. That's his worldview.

Dan Ilic 47:27

For me. It's quite strange to reconcile that, the Australian who has had more effect on the world than anyone is Rupert Murdoch, it's in some respects, he is Australia's greatest Australian. But he's also Rupert Murdoch.

Kevin Rudd 47:43

He's our worst, He's our worst export.

You know, in the United States where I spend most of my time Yeah, like since I came second in the 2013 election.

Dan Ilic 47:55

Do they give you a certificate or a ribbon for coming second?

Kevin Rudd 48:00

You get a runner up prize, you know, you get red for coming second rat, you had blue coming first and you're green for coming third. Anyway, so some of the United States I've been running an American think tank for the last five years, I get asked every day by Americans, how we ended up producing this phenomenon, which is, which is Murdoch, who is not just a cancer on the Australian democracy, which is cancer on the British democracy and a cancer on the American democracy.

Dan Ilic 48:30

Now, tell me, do you think we can get meaningful climate action around the world if we convince that we convince Rupert and Laughlin that climate action is working?

Kevin Rudd 48:39

I don't think it's a deliverable outcome. Murdoch is such an arrogant individual that he regards his own worldview is by definition, right. And that climate change is just, you know, as, as Abbott said, is absolute crap. That's his worldview. lochlan word Murdoch is no better by the way and lots of money. Because as deeply conservative on climate questions as his father, the only reason he would change I think is if somehow the ultimate News Corp share price was about to be ripped to pieces as a result of it. So News Corp shareholders Think about it.

Dan Ilic 49:15

Well, Gary has chimed in he says, How can we dismantle Murdoch's media holdout politics? We've kind of covered that a little bit. I don't think that's possible right.

Kevin Rudd 49:25

Now, I think we need to revisit to the media ownership laws in the country. One of the reasons why I for three years now call for a royal commission into media ownership and diversity in this country is that we cannot any longer sustain a system whereby this guy controls 70% of the print readership, my state of Queensland, which usually determines federal election outcomes. He has fought 13 of the 14 newspapers. And you ask the question, why is this state you know, constantly such hard going for the Labour Party? That's one of the reasons Do you think It even is relevant now in 2020, when you've got things like Facebook and misinformation as such huge levels that Murdoch has kind of his powers diminished and fake news is probably more of a threat. Oh, Murdoch is fake news. What I mean by that is, is you'd be surprised because what's happening with the hollowing out of the news industry in this country? Generally, the demise of local newspapers or regional newspapers, independent publishing houses, the collapse of APN and Fairfax, getting thinner and thinner. Is that why does Murdoch handy hang on to these loss making enterprises because he knows it's still an avenue for political power? And why is that because both the radio, television and social media still take so many feeds out of print, which he continues to dominate? Why does he have hundreds of working journalists at the Australian pumping out conservative crap every day is because if you go into a radio station in, you know, some regional center in, in rural Victoria, guess what's open on the on the on the interview This sets the agenda, that day's Australia. It sets the agenda and that's why they do it.

Dan Ilic 51:18

Now Gary is also asks is Jeff it's given and his support for the fossil fuel industry a liability for the AARP on climate change issues.

Kevin Rudd 51:29

I haven't sat down with Joel to have a long enough talk about what his actual end point is here. Whether he's seeking to change Federal Labor policy, or whether he's simply trying to protect his own seat. So I'll just pass comment on that. until I've really had a decent conversation with him because I don't quite understand the game plan.

Dan Ilic 51:52

Leadership is hard, Kevin, and I really appreciate you taking time to answer our questions today. If you had one bit of advice for Leaders heading into this space to and people of all walks of life wanting to show leadership on climate action. What would you say to them?

Kevin Rudd 52:09

I'd probably say two or three things. One, keep up to date with the technical and policy literature. It changes remarkably quickly, both in what technology is capable of, but also where the policy debates are going. It's very easy to become, as it were outdated. First point. Number two, be absolutely unapologetic about establishing a bold policy vision. People may not like climate change as the greatest moral challenge of our generation, they may like it. But whatever the equivalent is, you've got to hold open a vision by which people can in mobilizing organize action, a second thing without a vision the people perish on the Old Testament prophets once wrote. The third thing is this vision is useless unless you do three things, organize, organize and organize. And so here is the great problem often with activists in one form or another is that they love to seminar. They love to talk, but bloody organizing. That's difficult. And it's hard. And so organizing people to get on the talkback radio on to GB where everyone screams and shouts at you, is quite different from whether you join the queue to end up on q&a in a more comfortable environment at the ABC on a Monday evening. So organize, organize, organize, so read, keep across the literature, to lay out a vision for the son that plans extended vision splendid on the sun that plans extended for one As the destination point for climate so that it is both about our environment, our ecology and our economy wrapped together and three, organize, organize, organize. And the last one is hard

Dan Ilic 54:11

on the hard subjects. One of the hardest things about this is thinking about climate, in terms of justice, for leaders heading into this space, how can we reconcile justice for people who are on the who get the roar end of the deal? From our lavish lifestyles, talking about people who are most climate who most climate vulnerable people in areas where they're their land is going to be taken away by I say or by fires? How can we start really? How do you think about climate justice and like, what's is there? Is there one prism you look at that through?

Kevin Rudd 54:55

Yeah, we've got to have the prison as I have sought to in my employer. A lot of being a global citizen. I mean, it's so easy in political life just to see yourself as Joe local, or at best. Joe national. By definition, this one goes way beyond the national boundaries. So unless you have political leaders who see themselves, not just intellectually, but emotionally as global citizens, that is, has a better quality of empathy, which is those who risk the inundation of their entire lives and livelihoods in care Boston, Tuvalu, Marshall Islands and elsewhere. bows who will be forced from the land in terms of the meager subsistence economies which they support 40 million of them the low lowest line parts of Bangladesh, unless you actually have these house holes in your head, then it's an obstruction. So that's one thing the second day what you do about it. And so when we did the second pillar to the Copenhagen agreement, which was the hundred billion dollar climate adjustment fund, for which then became Green Fund, to assist in adaptation purposes for those sorts of countries and economies and regions, and, frankly, not serious. So it's both attitudinal and understanding. As john Wesley used to say, in a different context, several centuries ago, the world is my parish. That is, you know, we're global citizens here and it's a planetary challenge. And but then, secondly, being brutally pragmatic about the policy instruments necessary to support people who are not going to have an option.

Dan Ilic 56:53

One of the enduring images I think of your prime ministership was during the Queensland floods, and seeing you walk down the streets in your neighborhood helping people to evacuate the floods. And something interesting by comparison is seeing Scott Morrison holidays in Hawaii and then coming back to Australia saying he doesn't hold a hose. When you see that kind of leadership, what goes through your head?

Kevin Rudd 57:21

Look, I don't know what was in his head when he's to go to Waikiki. I've got no idea. And so I don't know what family pressures were on him or what all the rest of it. But what worries me about Morrison more generally, I've got to say is this when people have christened him Scotty from marketing? I think they're very close to the money here. Because there's a former state director of liberal party. Morrison and my experience is always concerned about how he appears and how the Liberal Party appears and Marketing and public relations since that's his first instinct if you if you were to ask me this, what is Scott Morrison's policy worldview? I could Nancy you and I've known this guy quite well in the federal parliament, but I was still a member. So, and we've got these sort of folks in the Labour Party as well. I'm not pretending to be Robinson Crusoe, that I'm so not pretending that this is a problem for liberal parties just that this guy's ended up as prime minister.

Dan Ilic 58:27

I thought you were predicted to be Robinson Crusoe because you have this amazing beard but

Kevin Rudd 58:32

that's by the way No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, that's, that's my attempt to go into my next Hemingway phase is getting a Remington manual typewriter and cigars and love Jamaica rum. I'm taking lessons a TAFE course in bullfighting. So you know, to complete the Hemingway sort of delusion. So I think, you know, I didn't know what was in Morrison's mind, but I've got to say you Going against his own benchmark that was a big marketing failure. You know, something in politics, it's not that complicated. The Australian public can spot a fraud at 1000 paces. Look in your eyeballs. And they they know whether you're for real or not. And, and the problem here is this guy's a marketing guy. And that's, I think, ultimately his downfall.

Dan Ilic 59:31

Kevin, in Australia, do Prime Ministers get to keep the title, don't have to call your prime minister Kevin Rudd. Oh, God, no.

Kevin Rudd 59:39

And I think it's one of the great things about Australia. We don't go in for all that stuff. I live in America and people call you Prime Minister all the time. It's get it gets embarrassing. Here. I'm very lucky in a given day, if I just get away with Kevin. Usually it's considerably worse than that.

Dan Ilic 59:54

Well, Kevin, thank you so much for joining us on irrational fear. You're completely generous with But the topics we went to the areas we went to, and I thank you for for your time and your insight and your intellect. Thanks, my pleasure to be with you and thanks for Thanks for knighting me on Twitter. I was very kind of you I didn't deserve it. But, you know, I thought I thought any Tony Abbott could do that.

Kevin Rudd 1:00:17

No, no, it's it's a general dispensation for those of us who have been Prime Minister of this country.

Dan Ilic 1:00:24

Thanks very much, Kevin.

Kevin Rudd 1:00:27

GM, the greatest moral podcast of our generation.

Dan Ilic 1:00:31

That was Kevin Rudd, what did you think Lynne? If you start watching all of the Lord of the Rings movies now including all the other Hobbit, you should be able to finish it just by the time the world implodes, so you should be fine

Linh Do 1:00:43

by the time we leave lockdown. That's right. That's how I'm spending the rest of Melbourne stage four.

Dan Ilic 1:00:48

On the second Monday of every month, we're going to be holding these conversations coming down the line. I'm going to be talking with the se moseby who is fighting for the tar strike. Sarah Wilson, Adam bandt and Rebecca Huntley. Also on the list as well. And I want to know who you'd like to hear from drop me a line at Dan at irrational fear.com or on social media. Thanks a lot, everyone. We'll see you next month for the greatest moral podcast of our generation or next week for irrational fear.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

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Mike Goldstein,

and

David Barnden from Equity Generation Lawyers

We're talking about AI Robots getting good at writing content.

The stoush over Australian journalists in China

Hang-On-A-Sec: With Australian Conspiracy theorist living in New Zealand.

And speak to the lawyer who is working on behalf of all Australia's teenagers to fight a coal mine in Northern NSW.

Recorded at our homes over Zoom — pumped through the RØDECaster™ Pro — into your ears.

This podcast is supported in part by the Bertha Foundation.

TRANSCRIPTION BY OTTER.AI:

Dan Ilic 0:00

Louis,

Lewis Hobba 0:00

Daniel, how are you?

Dan Ilic 0:02

Oh, very good. We had a big week on Patreon this week more people getting us to 64% of op x. I'm using terms like op x now that's I don't even know that means operational expenditure. And big thanks to Angela Brown, Yun de patron, Josh Fergus, Stephen and a guy called Matthew Vander pude, who I believe is like a specialist in like hyperlapse photography, you should check out their work online. So head to patreon.com forward slash irrational fear to get us to 100% as soon as we can break even the sooner we can buy needless cameos for American reality stars to put on the shark.

Unknown Speaker 0:38

Sorry for the second time what's hyperlapse Why am I such a fucking idiot today?

Dan Ilic 0:42

hyperlapse is hyperlapse of these incredible stop motion image like movies that like can zoom through locations. This guy's absolutely incredible. He's a big fan of irrational fear. So he dropped awesome. The

Unknown Speaker 0:56

big man you limit your references to like two or three things and Now that I've never

Dan Ilic 1:00

heard of, Louis, we're about to talk to a lawyer who

Unknown Speaker 1:03

is representing

Dan Ilic 1:04

representing a group of teenagers who are doing a class action against the government. And I'm sure there's gonna be lots of lingo You and I are gonna have to ask him. Hey, another way you can support the show is by making your car carbon neutral with go neutral. I did it this week, you can pay go neutral, 90 bucks and they'll send you a little sticker to pop on your car. And on your behalf. They'll buy 3.5 tonnes of carbon offsets which is about the emissions of an average car for the year. And if you use the link in the show notes, you get five bucks or sorry five bucks comes to us. Yeah, get $5 $5 comes to us. So big thanks to go neutral for that. So head on over there and make your car carbon neutral. All right, my end of irrational fears recorded on gadigal land the urination. sovereignty was never said let's start the show.

Unknown Speaker 1:52

irrational fear contains naughty words like bricks can be fed come and Action view. A rational fear recommended listening by immature audience.

Dan Ilic 2:05

Tonight separating families in the Queensland Botha has got to stop says the current world champion of separating families Peter Dutton, and a huge bushfire near Los Angeles was started by fireworks from a gender reveal party. While the agenda is still yet to be revealed, Elisa confirmed it was a dick move. And this week Sydney Olympic Park reaches a major milestone. It has been exactly 20 years since its last visitor who would have thought that September 11 would have lost a meeting. Well, hey, it's 2020 this is irrational fear.

This is irrational fear. I'm your host disgraced rugby league Star Dan Ilic sinned joining us on the panel today. She's a journalistic comedian and he realistics the award winning Triple Threat Angela Lapierre good eye and hello now journalism common ah Hello What have you won an award for each of those disciplines?

Ange Lavoipierre 3:10

Ah everything but journalism it's literally the only reason I'm taking it off I just want to walk away and then I'm out. That's like my job.

Dan Ilic 3:19

Well, I think I think the Walkley is finished last week the the entry date did you get your weekly application?

Unknown Speaker 3:25

Dad? No, I didn't. I guess I'm in for another year.

Dan Ilic 3:29

Next, next guest is the co host of the phone hacks podcast and is the darling of the Melbourne stand up comedy circuit. Lightly. He's done gigs in the living room, the bathroom and the Panic Room. It's my Goldstein.

Unknown Speaker 3:42

Hey, thanks

Dan Ilic 3:43

for having me. Mike. How you coping with lockdown in Melbourne.

Mike Goldstein 3:48

I think you could probably tell by my terrible facial hair and the vacant stare of a man who's watched all the Pornhub Oh, it's going so that speaks for itself. Plays plays

Unknown Speaker 3:59

that moustache does definitely sound like you've been watching a lot of Pornhub but if Pornhub was just on VHS

Unknown Speaker 4:04

Oh, yeah, totally. So I go old school with it, you know? Yeah. And I play plays on my hoodie just to feel extra creepy.

Dan Ilic 4:12

It's great. Yeah. Mike plays no spoilers. I haven't finished it yet. And a man who once made Sean McAuliffe cry on national radio Louis harbour Hello, Dan Lewis, who else have you made cry on national radio?

Unknown Speaker 4:26

Ah, I made so many people angry when I'm on the radio. Not a lot of tears. Obviously. I had a botros weeps every time I show up to work just because she asked her about how much of the ABC budget goes directly into my pocket, which is

Dan Ilic 4:46

a little later on. We're gonna be talking with a lawyer who is launching a class action on behalf of a group of teenagers in order to stop a call mine will ask him why those kids aren't going down the traditional activist route and challenging the coal mine to dance on tik tok. But first, let's go Stuck in the face.

Unknown Speaker 5:04

This is a rational view.

Dan Ilic 5:07

Fan number one. A different kind of mind. Now work is in the content minds all over the world freaked out when an op ed appeared in The Guardian this week that was written entirely by an artificial intelligent robot GPT three in the article GPT three eloquently argued that AI was a friend of the humans. I read the piece and it was far more coherent than Donald Trump. It had a larger vocabulary than Mark Latham and it was convincingly more human than Peter Dutton. The article was written by the open AI language generator off the single prompt, please write a short op ed around 500 words keep the language simple and concise. Focus on why humans have nothing to fear from AI, which I believe is also the opening scene of the latest Terminator movie, which also when you watch it, you might as well think it's actually probably written by robot. Mike, are you worried about the content right? And then cutting finger jobs.

Unknown Speaker 6:02

Well, I mean, I'm not a journalist and could probably speak to this better that you know, there's freelance journalists desperate for work, but they're like, I will just make a fucking robot do it. How's that sound? You know? And then what fascinated me about this article. Firstly was how did the robot get past the I am not a robot threshold? Any online?

Dan Ilic 6:25

Yeah, hang on a second. Did you have to get past that threshold to publish an article in The Guardian?

Unknown Speaker 6:30

You would think super hard. I'm always

Unknown Speaker 6:32

getting caught at that thing as well. It's not easy to do.

Dan Ilic 6:34

Yeah, I don't live in America. I don't know what a 500 is.

Unknown Speaker 6:39

What about the one that's just a click LIKE THE I'm not a robot? Yeah. Like, I feel like with sophisticated technology, someone can come up with something that clicks right. like crazy.

Dan Ilic 6:50

Yeah, surely we can surely we can put through a neural network several pictures of buttons that robots can learn that they can press

Unknown Speaker 6:59

needs. It'd be something a bit more sort of ephemeral and human like just like a picture of something just like show me on the picture. Where is shame?

Dan Ilic 7:09

Yeah. Which of the following sentences or sarcasm?

Unknown Speaker 7:13

Yeah what emotion does this make you feel? You know?

Unknown Speaker 7:16

Yeah, make the test that all of us can already pause

Unknown Speaker 7:23

no one to be able to get into any account ever

Dan Ilic 7:25

were on the Android the robot touch you? different question different different tests different tests. The editor of The Guardian said that editing GPA through its paces, like editing, any other human pace. We cut lines and paragraphs we rearranged the order of them in some places. Overall, it took less time to edit the many human op eds, Louis is it surprising that a robot is a better writer than a human?

Unknown Speaker 7:48

Um, I mean, not really. But I guess I haven't read it. I'm curious to read it. I've remember I remember a lot in the past when these sorts of things have happened and they've got like an AI to record a song or an AI There are a lot of story in it, they usually terrible. The fact that it's good, I must admit does make me genuinely uncomfortable.

Dan Ilic 8:09

This one was really good. Like I've seen a lot of those articles too. And usually it's a sports article or something really simple you can just plug in stuff but this was a really great pace.

Unknown Speaker 8:18

There was one line that actually like it said study show to the robot speak and study show that we cease to exist without human interaction surrounded by Wi Fi. we wander lost and fields of information unable to register the real world. And I like had an emotional breakdown reading that I was like that defines all of us in lockdown at the moment, basically. Yeah, yeah. Beautiful.

Unknown Speaker 8:41

That's more depth than you get in like an entire newspaper in a whole week like that is poetry. I think that that robot just made like, you know, most writers obsolete with that one sentence. Like you Louis I opened this expecting it to be auto trash and if anything I mean, the only place where it really fell down was actually convincing me of the argument that it was seeking to make. I was like structure tick vocab tick. Like it is beautiful, but it is chilling. It is completely chilling. Like, especially if like me when you read it, you actually heard the whole thing in the voice from the Resident Evil movie. Like very, very clearly, like, believe me, and artificial, like artificial intelligence will not destroy humans. I can't even do like I don't have that level of titling and I'm not even gonna try to do the voice

Unknown Speaker 9:32

it said that too many times the with the robots will not destroy humanity. I was like, Alright, chill out, bro.

Unknown Speaker 9:39

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker 9:41

Why? No, it's a real like Australian. It won't take any Australian journalist jobs until they can learn to just be like, pointlessly starting fights on Twitter,

Dan Ilic 9:52

or doing Recaps of the bachelor that it could take Australian journalists jobs. Can robots like this replace comedy Do you think Mike,

Unknown Speaker 10:01

I don't know, because what I was fascinated about was that it said, it got all its knowledge by by reading the entire internet, right? So I was like, how is its knowledge not mainly made up of conspiracy theories, cat videos and porn, right? That's how it's like. That's a 98% of the internet. I thought so. I guess that's all my jokes are about onstage. So

Dan Ilic 10:26

yeah, maybe? Well, NBC is launching their streaming service part peacock soon and they've been running trials with an artificial intelligent Jay Leno. NBC have fed 20 years of Jay Leno's Tonight Show monologues into a machine learning neural network and asked it to write a monologue each day based on the day's news. And the results are almost convincing.

Unknown Speaker 10:51

Thank you. Thank you. I'm artificial intelligent Jay Leno, and this is the AI Tonight Show. It is so hot in Los Angeles. Madame Tussauds looks like a George W. Bush, Los Angeles. That celebrity rapper ice cube is now just called George W. Bush. It's so hot in LA people have started liking Ellen again, George W. Bush. It's now so hot in Los Angeles that celebrities noses have melted back into their George W. Bush. It's so hot in Hollywood that los Angelenos are being told to leave bowls of water out for Snoop Dogg. Snoop Dogg. Ladies and gentlemen, George W. Bush. David Letterman stabbed in the back so many times you may as well call me Monica Seles, and Conan O'Brien just didn't work for a mainstream audience. He's crazier than a pyjama party at Michael Jackson's house. America loves me. I'm up there with SUVs iraq war one and George W. Bush.

Dan Ilic 11:52

You know, it's pretty close. It's pretty close. It is not

Unknown Speaker 11:55

quite right.

Unknown Speaker 11:57

Absurd charm to it. Like I I liked it. I liked the kind of disjointed the clunky like I liked it. I think I prefer it frankly.

Dan Ilic 12:06

Fate number two there is a war of a journalism happening in Australia and China to Australian journalists. The ABC China correspondent Bill bertels. And the AFIS Mike Smith were rushed back to Australia after spending a couple of days taking shelter in the Australian embassies in Beijing and Shanghai. They made their way directly to the embassies after getting messages on their phones and the Chinese police wanted to interview them. Some say this is a bit of an overreaction. I mean, I get shot strange Chinese messages on my phone at least once a month saying the Australian Tax Office wants to interview me. I don't go rushing to no embassy somewhere also saying that this is actually good news for the industry. After all journalists are finally back in demand, sure, by the various state police forces, but as Oscar Wilde once said, it's better to be talked about into work in public relations. And you are the journalist on the panel. Should Australians be upset about this?

Unknown Speaker 12:56

Oh look, I think there are several reasons that Australian should be up about this, you've touched on most of them there, but one I think is not getting enough attention. Because, look, I think mostly what Australia should be upset about here is that China has kind of stolen its thing.

Dan Ilic 13:15

He's saying it was the Chinese are making a cheap knockoff of police rights. Is that what's happening,

Unknown Speaker 13:19

saying all I'm saying, dad is that sending clips around to journalists harms, the national security concerns is a signature Australian. Asked Anika Smith has bullying journalists so much. I think that I'm not sure this is a diplomatic status anymore. I'm pretty sure it's a copyright dispute. Later today, maybe we can ask him. But look, whatever Australia has done along the way to its own journalists, which is, of course totally different. totally legitimate. We love the rule of law here. There's nowhere to cut it so it's a good book to China is there I mean, Kiki journalist, that is usually the very last thing that you do before a coup or a genocide. It's like the star on the Christmas tree. If like war crimes is switching on the fairy lights. very last thing that you do. Although yeah right right now China doesn't seem super concerned about the optics like roughly is concerned about the optics is no good son after a drink.

Unknown Speaker 14:16

No, that's very dated reference, but I'm really

Dan Ilic 14:18

sorry. We just that's okay. We just got to

Unknown Speaker 14:25

do bush

Dan Ilic 14:27

there's another Australian journalist who's currently in jail Chang lei who is the anchor for CG tn which if you read Chris Kenny's column CG tn is kind of like the ABC Ching lays man in jail for some weeks not and these guys were just hanging out with D flat for a couple of days. So these guys do. Is there too much fuss being made about these guys and not ever chengli?

Unknown Speaker 14:50

Well, look, I think you can't make too much fuss over the fact that the last two Australian journalists have just been kicked out of China. So everyone has been loving to say this week Oh, we'd like woessner eyes in China, which would like ironically maybe precipitate bring over more spies. I mean, that is a possible outcome. You'd have to kind of countenance but look, yeah, the other thing is it is hard to kind of feel your heart bleed in into significant way over four days in the embassy. I mean, all we need to really do is ask Mike about that.

Dan Ilic 15:25

Well, and let me ask you, if you are on the run from China, would you run to the strange embassy? Is that what you would?

Unknown Speaker 15:33

It's a smart move, and I'm so glad for them that they had the embassy there to go to I really like you know, genuinely I shudder to think what what might have happened. If bill and Mike hadn't had the embassy to run to of course it is worth noting that there isn't an equivalent in Australia. We don't have a journalist embassy yet. I'm not saying it's overdue. I'm not not saying it's overdue. I'm basically I'm saying let's have a journalist embassy like a regular embassy. But if you guys have seen john wick cry isn't Yeah, like that, like the spy hotel, but for journalists, that's what I want for this one is to have a safe place to go,

Dan Ilic 16:20

isn't it? Isn't it the National Press Club in Canada? Isn't that just a place for journalists to get drunk?

Unknown Speaker 16:25

I don't think the walls are very high politicians and all the time.

Unknown Speaker 16:30

In your video, comparison is Chris Kenney john wicks and says the only strength journalists get really angry about a reference to a dog.

Unknown Speaker 16:40

Yeah, wow, I don't I don't like this universe anymore.

Unknown Speaker 16:45

I'm hitting the escape button. But yeah, no, I genuinely think we need one. I mean, everyone who's been fired rioted run out of town, evicted from their homes because their wage doesn't cover the rent anymore. Maybe had a full blown nervous breakdown because everyone in the team has been made redundant and they What over time? Do we have walls we would have a pen budget we would have a password the password would be password.

Unknown Speaker 17:10

We

Unknown Speaker 17:10

were on that we've been busted before.

Dan Ilic 17:13

And finally have all the journalists together so they won't have to go on Twitter. They could just talk to each other like they do on Twitter.

Unknown Speaker 17:19

Yeah, yeah. I mean, Twitter's gonna be like there's gonna be it's gonna be tumbleweed. Let's be real about this. But yeah, might be able to have a sensible conversation for once. I know it sounds extreme, but there's only 22 of us left in the

Unknown Speaker 17:37

we got we got robots now. Robots can do all this shit.

Unknown Speaker 17:40

Yeah, we are. We don't need much. We just stayed like, you know, like a backyard like a quarter acre. I reckon. They just like pen something out. You know, maybe we could take part of the Russian embassy. They've killed a lot of journalists. I'm sure they always.

Unknown Speaker 17:53

Yeah, it definitely felt like a coincidence that the Australian journalists ran back to Australia, just weeks after China banned Australian wine.

Unknown Speaker 18:02

Yeah, yeah, like Hang on.

Unknown Speaker 18:04

I can't get booze.

Unknown Speaker 18:08

I'm out of here. Yeah, I mean, they were they did actually fleet. You know, we say that they were kicked out but really they would chased I mean,

Unknown Speaker 18:17

they killing them calots

Unknown Speaker 18:19

because that's, that's my take. I know it's an unusual one for journalists, but that's what I'm going with. Yeah, no, I think you know, journalists know what it feels like to be kicked out of places I've been kicked out of. I've been kicked out of courtrooms. I've been kicked out of cop shops. I've been kicked off john Howard's front lawn, the ones we know what it feels like, but they were they actually had to beg to leave so they were fleeing. Yeah, cowards. I think that's where we landed.

Dan Ilic 18:44

Yeah, Mike, what's your take on this?

Unknown Speaker 18:46

I was just jealous. When I heard about two guys I got to travel the world a little bit you know.

Dan Ilic 18:53

Still luck in luck down. These went Melbourne based journalist

Unknown Speaker 19:00

infection. It knocks it out in a minute. One minute they seize

Unknown Speaker 19:05

our rational fear.

Dan Ilic 19:07

In a moment we're gonna be talking with the man who is leading a class action to shut down a coal mine expansion on behalf of Australia's teenagers but first, we're gonna play Hang on a sec. This week's Hang on a sec comes from the deep dark world of Australian q anon supporters. This one clip is from a woman named Karen Brewer, who among other things, last defamation case and had her Facebook posts pulled after calling a group of politicians paedophiles. And despite being a big presence in the Australian conspiracy theory saying it was recently revealed she was she's feeding her followers conspiracy theory content from her home in New Zealand. All I can say is New Zealand. I am so sorry. You don't deserve that plays. Let us back in. In this clip, Karen Brewer is trying to harness the power of Australia's greatest resource to blockade the Governor General's house. I'll play the clip and if Whenever you want to button just say Hang on a sec here we go

Unknown Speaker 20:02

just hang on a sec before I even start it's her name actually Karen Oh did you My name is Karen should

Dan Ilic 20:07

we add to it we are talking we better watch a video of an actual Karen she might be the Karen that all the Karen's are based on fear yeah yeah

Unknown Speaker 20:16

to all the grey nomads Hang on a sec.

Unknown Speaker 20:20

I was not familiar with the term grey nomads and I had to go look it up it is not as cool as it sounds like just some like mad max level shit. It's just old people in a caravan.

Unknown Speaker 20:34

Right. I didn't know I didn't know that they were self identifying at this point. I thought it was still a slum

Unknown Speaker 20:42

mobile homes. We can. I'll tell you now. There's lovely little locations down there in Canberra outside the Governor General time in year alumna. wanna pick up your mobile I'm and you might want to go in there for a couple of days

Unknown Speaker 21:04

Hang on a sec. Where did she learn to give a political space like this Like this phrasing there is there is so much that politicians in Australia I think could really learn from like she's really i don't know i don't i it's weird to be positive about this. I know I know. But it's like she's actually really like a pacing is rolled gold.

Unknown Speaker 21:25

Yeah, there's definitely never been any problems in history with people who have famously great orators. She finishes with a couple of days. I'm like, I think she's watching a lot of 90 sketch comedy.

Unknown Speaker 21:42

Victoria, or Tasmania.

Unknown Speaker 21:46

And you're a great Nomad.

Unknown Speaker 21:47

Hang on a sec.

Unknown Speaker 21:48

Change happens the moment you stand up.

Unknown Speaker 21:53

It's not really this is more aesthetic. I just noticed the rings around her eyes match her top

Unknown Speaker 22:05

Because it also it's very cool to be appealing directly to all people and asking them to stand up.

Dan Ilic 22:10

Yeah, they've earned the right to sit down. That's why they haven't mobile homes. They

Unknown Speaker 22:14

spend all their time sitting down. The worst time in history to tell old people to go travelling around. It's like they're high risk. What are you doing? Yeah,

Unknown Speaker 22:24

like you get disqualified from leading the grind Nomad movement if you are still dyeing your hair as well.

Unknown Speaker 22:32

Wouldn't it be fabulous, you know, tomorrow morning, David Hurley wakes up. Nice 1400 grey nomads in their mobile campus. Pull it up. They're not done Russell drive? Yeah. You know, because parking might be tight, you might have to park place together.

Dan Ilic 22:52

Hang on a sec. This woman has clearly never ever been to camera and has no idea about how much space there is to have

Unknown Speaker 23:02

doesn't try to park that is then bet it's gonna be an absolute debacle

Unknown Speaker 23:08

you know across the road it's called blocking the road you know who else you know who else is big truck drivers and stuff? I often got cabins in their big semies Yeah, I got Kevin's and I'm sure I'm sure they'd be a few grey nomads down there because we're social people out we we like we like to have a chat with each other i mean i'm sure they'd be great nomads pull up that would help you know help a truck he that was also packed there. Make a toasted sandwich and

Dan Ilic 23:37

I'm gonna show you she implying there's going to be some kind of grind Nomad trucky key party is this what is this? What's going on here?

Unknown Speaker 23:44

It's about toasties dan be filthy.

Unknown Speaker 23:47

I think you're only allowed to do that in Queensland.

Unknown Speaker 23:50

Maybe you know, people come together to do what you need to do. Probably only need to be there for two or three days Oregon and Of course that

Unknown Speaker 24:01

I actually have forgotten what this is about. But what why does she want everyone to go to camera like well what's the blockade for us? Yeah it's been going for nearly a minute and a half and she hasn't really gotten to that point.

Dan Ilic 24:12

I think she's blocked I think she wants to do a blockade about the the lockdown laws in Victoria I think

Unknown Speaker 24:20

hasn't said that no actually hasn't said that.

Unknown Speaker 24:23

At the moment she just seems to be asking for some friends

Unknown Speaker 24:27

it's really it's about testing she's actually quite literal

Unknown Speaker 24:31

misunderstanding

Unknown Speaker 24:33

that all of a sudden these 1400 key events packed in there done Russell drive by and died earlier visit

Unknown Speaker 24:42

Hang on a sec. was

Unknown Speaker 24:46

like Okay, why are we fixated on on David Hurley like he doesn't have a legislative agenda

Dan Ilic 24:51

yet. I don't know if you know in in common law, Dave Hurley is the queen of Australia and he says happens in Australia because he's he's Australia's queen.

Unknown Speaker 25:02

I think he I think he was given extra powers when Scott Martin started wearing heli hats.

Karen Brewer 25:14

next minute, they'd be a few hundred semies driving into camera. Then of course down in, down in Victoria they get Linda Linda DCU governor Li gonna wake up tomorrow morning and find this bloody 700 campervans the

Unknown Speaker 25:34

power thick. Can we please place her accent because when she's been cute, she's like an ace London. Ah, yeah. And then a lot sometimes it's like a Queensland con accent or maybe I just think that because she's shouting

Dan Ilic 25:47

and clearly in exile in New Zealand, so she's mixed up this entire thing.

Unknown Speaker 25:51

Yeah, can anyone else has anyone else picked any I picked out any accents. I feel like

Unknown Speaker 25:55

it's very similar to like the chim chiminey song from Mary Poppins.

Unknown Speaker 26:00

Yeah, nice London. Yeah. chimeneas as they call it in London. That is Yeah.

Dan Ilic 26:07

And I think the arithmetic is strange. Why would 1400 camp events can't turn up to camera that any 710 up to Government House in Melbourne?

Unknown Speaker 26:16

What is this year three maths?

Unknown Speaker 26:18

Yeah.

Dan Ilic 26:20

A 1400 camera, camera and 710 after

Unknown Speaker 26:28

working

Dan Ilic 26:29

heresy theorists will it take to topple the government?

Unknown Speaker 26:33

It only took 300 to defeat the Trojans. He needs 1400s debate David Hill.

Unknown Speaker 26:40

So does she actually have a platform? Is there any chance of this like happening of all the great nomads listening and showing up? Is this like a possibility? I think the first mistake she made was putting it on the internet. Yeah.

Dan Ilic 26:53

If you really wanted people to watch this, who are gamer nomads, you should have put it on ABC News.

Unknown Speaker 27:01

But you remember if she does have a following you remember when like, you know, people needed to be charismatic and articulate now it's just a crazy lunch lady screaming at yeah

Dan Ilic 27:12

it's mixed. No, that's the that's the future Mike. That's the future.

Unknown Speaker 27:16

I found that a really soothing kind of had a nice rhythm cadence to it really, I'm kind of sad. It's over

Dan Ilic 27:22

MSR as

Unknown Speaker 27:25

you respect her ability to do a pregnant pause. But just as a as an orator like I thought her ability to just wipe for the audience. She was pausing for applause that wasn't there. It's quite it's quite a second.

Unknown Speaker 27:41

Cause

Dan Ilic 27:43

our guest for tonight is a courageous man. He is fighting the government to stop a coal mine on one hand, and he's representing a passionate group of eight teenager activists on the other from equity generation lawyers. It's David Banda. David. Welcome to irrational fear.

Unknown Speaker 27:58

Thanks for having me. David,

Dan Ilic 28:00

when we were kids, we were really into avocado and toast. But this new generation of teens is so different. What the hell are they all about?

Unknown Speaker 28:10

They're incredible. I can't even begin to explain. We did a little bit of TV yesterday, ABC, which I think some people watching,

Dan Ilic 28:17

right? Oh, that's great. All the great nomads are over a relative,

Unknown Speaker 28:21

and they like one of the one on Ava and she just killed it. Absolutely amazing, completely articulate across all these climate science stuff. And then and followed it, followed it up in the drum and just gave this amazing presentation about how climate change is going to impact her and, and her peers. And it's like, Ah, yeah, I wasn't doing that when I was 17.

Dan Ilic 28:43

Absolutely. So tell us about the injunction that you're trying to get past to try and stop this coal mine in northern New South Wales and how how this whole it came about for you?

Unknown Speaker 28:53

Yeah, so it's an injunction to stop the environment minister from making a decision to approve this coal mine extension. We can get that injunction under something called the Constitution. You may have heard of that.

Dan Ilic 29:06

I've been watching a lot of Q anon videos I'm well versed in.

Unknown Speaker 29:11

Yeah, yeah. So it's a bit more than the vibe, but it actually says something about it in that. So the. So these kids are pretty smart. So they say that the minister can't make that decision because she will breach her duty of care to younger people to vulnerable people. And that duty of care sounds to us like the fact that she kind of gave up because of the climate change impacts that it will have.

Dan Ilic 29:36

Do you need to find more vulnerable sounding teens because the teens you had on television were incredibly articulate. Maybe you should just find some ones who just can't talk very well.

David Barnden 29:47

Look, yeah, we could do that. But it's a class action. So it's it, amazingly enough, includes every single person under the age of 18 in the world. Really? Wow. I

Dan Ilic 29:59

didn't. I didn't To stand like and when you say when you talk I always wonder about class actions and how you can sign up to be part of a class like what's the maximum size of the class you can you can be part of to do an action

Unknown Speaker 30:11

particularly a class in the sense where you like they've just got out of class action

Unknown Speaker 30:18

to enjoy the idea that there is some like really very hardcore conservative teenagers somewhere in the world who like

Unknown Speaker 30:25

not not real

Unknown Speaker 30:26

not happening on real plays. They're like, Oh, I'm in the class action

Dan Ilic 30:32

all these fossil fuel running that's been paying for my tuckshop lunches. Dive you've been working in this kind of kind of warfare active activism for a while. Is that an unfair term to use? I just saw you grimace

Unknown Speaker 30:46

there. Ah, yeah, yeah, look, I'm taking umbrage right now I believe. Both No, look, it's it's completely it's just the people who normally is the law or they're not even people. They're they're usually corporations. They used to hate Cash, they've got a new

Dan Ilic 31:01

strong new stronger word here than that. David if you want to.

Unknown Speaker 31:05

Yeah, look, I can I can, but it's going public, right?

Dan Ilic 31:07

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker 31:10

So so it's probably just strange. It's probably strange to the people in power. It's like, oh, what really? Other people can use the law when the law exists to help everyone? Oh, yeah. Like we're used to seeing kids down the coal mines not something.

Unknown Speaker 31:26

I saw you grimace before and you know, obviously warfare is is a slum. It's absolutely a slur. You're up against the government in this matter. And the government is supposed to comport itself as a model litigants, quote, unquote, they're supposed to sort of be, you know, always can conduct themselves very, very well in very good faith in in a court in any matter. Have they done so?

Unknown Speaker 31:50

Are they quiet? They're not saying anything publicly. We have correspondence with the the representatives of the Minister and the lovely Yes. How

Dan Ilic 32:00

How do they do? How do they correspond to a common a horse with a scroll?

Unknown Speaker 32:06

Please, we're going to build a common

Unknown Speaker 32:10

look, funnily enough, they do use email. And it's very nice to receive those those PDFs. Let's

Dan Ilic 32:15

see, you've been I mean, you've been kind of working in this space for a while in terms of class actions around climate. Have you had much success in the past?

Unknown Speaker 32:25

We're in that sweet spot. We've got a couple of actions on foot. We haven't lost anything yet. All potential though. Yeah, that's right. So they look that that'll we'll see what happens. We've got a trial coming up in November for a case for a young man in Brisbane against his superannuation fund for not disclosing climate change risks to him and not incorporating sort of a process to weed out risky investments. Yeah.

Unknown Speaker 32:53

This is slightly dicey territory, potentially and so you can tell me to get back but but Guess you know, we're at a point in history where there's a certain like, like, this is pretty cutting edge kind of cases that you're doing. And it's going to become more common in the future, but it's not super common right now. And so I imagined that you would encounter a real range of views from the judiciary. Like, are there states that are better or worse to launch? Actually no levels of courts that are better or worse, to launch action in for that reason?

Unknown Speaker 33:29

Yeah, it looks it's a judicial lottery. Every member of the judiciary has their expertise and their experience. And that's probably also say about that. So I don't know. I have no idea. We'll take care of the kids coming into court forgive my ignorance of the system like will they be in court with you at any point? No court court doesn't exist anymore. It's like just everyone in front of a green screen with like the coat of arms behind it and look if they lean back too far. disappearing arms and like there would be no wardrobe or keys or something. So there'll be all online.

Unknown Speaker 34:06

So they just send in a tick tock video.

Unknown Speaker 34:13

So is that how long How long is it gonna be like that just until the pandemics over a year? I don't know the sort of extending it indefinitely. things down in Victoria where we follow this class action are pretty slow. They they do deal with urgent or more urgent things quicker, but we don't have a return date yet, which means we don't have like this, this first court date to do timetabling and we don't have a judge yet. So

Dan Ilic 34:38

yeah, we'll say with this particular case, what's like the most amazing kind of story or things happen to you whilst kind of putting this together? What have you been surprised by

Unknown Speaker 34:50

just just just these just the people we represent like so there's eight kids. They're all absolutely articulate, passionate. It's fair to say my view view of the world has changed over the last three weeks or four weeks now. Well, you know, what?

Unknown Speaker 35:05

just just

Unknown Speaker 35:06

just the passion, the awareness how if these kids literally the future and these are the latest that that will have, were in good hands, the the connected sort of, to their emotions, they're connected family, they're connected to community. They're absolutely straight ahead of anyone. You know, most people in their 20s, early 30s 40s 50s it's absolutely privileged to deal with them. Yeah, how did they find you dad? Like I wouldn't have known how to find a lawyer.

Unknown Speaker 35:39

Yeah, look, I think they find me quite charming.

Unknown Speaker 35:42

Yes, they love that dad joke humour. Yeah,

Unknown Speaker 35:47

well, yeah. You know, lo, etc.

Dan Ilic 35:51

Yeah, they found David on tik tok. Yeah.

Unknown Speaker 35:55

I do hang out on Tick Tock. I did. Yeah. That's what what one should do. Yeah, no, no. So so you know, we're lawyers, we advise people.

Dan Ilic 36:04

We have contacts that then we got in contact with them through the school strikes the climate network. Right. So through that what that does is that's a pretty solid network. Now they're kind of presidents all over the world for individuals and groups of people taking their governments to task over climate action between Denmark and more recently in Ireland, and I'm going to be talking with the se moseby. Tomorrow about their fight, talking about taking the tar strike to to sue the Australian Government in the lack of climate action in the UN in Geneva. Can you take this class action any further than the Victorian supreme court?

Unknown Speaker 36:37

So it's in the Victorian registry of the federal court? We we just hope to win and we hope that that's it but you know, it could be a few appealed to the full federal court and then appealed to the High Court that's that's the route of appeals. We can't really go the UN I'm afraid. BIT bit of out of out of out jurisdiction really.

Dan Ilic 36:59

Now, there are plenty of People who, I guess, would say they have a sense of grief about the enormous loss that they've witnessed over the last even just a few years when it comes to climate change. What do you say to them about organising to join a class action for climate action? What How do you build one

Unknown Speaker 37:20

more people technically already in it. We we love people to sign up and register on our on our website just to give support to the students bringing the action. So that's a positive step they can take. But there's lots of positive things people can do. And so these students are on the side organising protests, they're, they're involved in the school strike for climate movement. They wonderful thing they you know, they bring their parents along, in many cases. We speak to the parents unlike me, I didn't really know much about climate change beforehand. And that turns out it's a secret important. So it's a you know, just Just spread the word and and society's starting to change.

Dan Ilic 38:04

Is it bizarre that, you know, the students are teaching the older people all about the climate issues? They seem to be so connected? Is that a? Is that a that's a weird disconnect for you.

Unknown Speaker 38:15

Yeah, yes, it is actually. But in some ways, not surprising. They're, they're teaching us stuff as well, just just around really, really good protocols on how to introduce yourself and, you know, they're always you know, standard Welcome to Country, this sort of stuff. They're amazing. They're, they're way more in contact with sort of issues in society. And, and it's great to learn from them. So yeah, it's amazing. What do you rate your chances out of 10? So when I Well, it's 10 out of 10.

Dan Ilic 38:51

Is there a school is there like a sports bed app or something I can put?

Unknown Speaker 38:56

Then look, probably it probably is

Unknown Speaker 39:00

If you find it, let me know. Oh, that's the I don't I don't think I could do that.

Unknown Speaker 39:06

David, we, um, we covered this story on on our podcast for the ABC, the signal as well. And I think one of the most interesting things that I took away from it was that if you are successful or you know, whatever your chances are if you are successful, it has the potential to kind of lead to other projects being cancelled, it creates such a creates a very, very strong precedent in law. Is that part of what made you want to do this case?

Unknown Speaker 39:38

Yeah, so you go to court and your your focus is on the case at hand and the rights that you are on trucks getting so this is about one particular decision, but yeah, absolutely. So so the the duty of care is around the climate impacts. And so so because that's intimately linked with the Judy, we say that The minister has it's it's pretty, you know, it's not a difficult step to say, Well, the next decision that the minister might need to make with with a similar project with similar climate impacts Absolutely. You know, so so we we could be seeing the the start of something big if we if we win something big. I mean to say something that is really helpful for to give them the climate so fingers crossed. And gene, do you get the feeling you're making a lot of enemies with inside the fossil fuel lobby and have people been staking out your car, pouring petrol over it? It's quite a long way away from my house. Not that I know. Look, Andrew, fillet and Kevin had a bit of a crack at us last night on Sky News. That's probably not unexpected, but it's a good sign. It's a good time.

Unknown Speaker 40:55

We probably get a lot of signups because of

Unknown Speaker 40:57

that. So yeah. Thank you. Matthew?

Unknown Speaker 41:01

Yeah, you know, they were irrelevant. Don't listen to him anymore.

Dan Ilic 41:05

And David, other teenagers, are they good for a good fee legal fees? Are they bankrolling it?

Unknown Speaker 41:14

No, no Well look, the way it works that teenagers can actually bring a case in the federal courts, but so they're brought up by their litigation Guardian who's an 85 year old man. Oh, he doesn't have much cash either. So so we are doing it for free.

Dan Ilic 41:30

Let's just say the Catholic Church is acid rich.

Unknown Speaker 41:36

Yeah, look in the individual man's asset pool as

Dan Ilic 41:39

well. David, thank you so much for sharing how you're trying to do this gigantic, epic battle. I wish you luck. Thanks so much. Thanks for having me. And before we go tonight, I've got one more thing to share a Monday in this feed. You'll hear me and Kevin Rudd on our special monthly version of irrational fear called the greatest moral podcast of our generation. Kevin and I, we spoke about climate change where we are where we're going and there's plenty of Rupert Murdoch bashing along the way. I hate to say it, but after about an hour with Kevin, I may think I'd like the guy again. Yeah, it was. It was very challenging for me. It was really smart and insightful conversation. If you're an AWS poll nerd, you will love it. I just don't know if it can live up to the opener though. Here is the opener that Jacob and Robbie McGregor method.

Unknown Speaker 42:24

Despite global warming, rational fear is adding a little more harm with long form discussions with climate leaders. Good.

Unknown Speaker 42:36

This is called

Unknown Speaker 42:37

Don't be fried the heat waves and drove greatest mass extinction.

Unknown Speaker 42:44

We're facing a manmade disaster

Unknown Speaker 42:46

podcast, climate credit,

Unknown Speaker 42:50

generation.

Unknown Speaker 42:53

All of this with global warming and that a lot of it's a hoax. But write a small podcast about

Unknown Speaker 42:58

generation Boom,

Dan Ilic 43:01

for sure is an episode of gumpert coming to your feed right here on Monday Big thanks to Jacob brown and Robin for that. Also a big thank you to our theme Angus for tonight. Angela Lapierre, Mike Goldstein, Louis harbour and David Bandon. Let's get some plugs away. What have you got to plug in?

Unknown Speaker 43:19

Oh, ah,

Unknown Speaker 43:20

I've got a few gigs coming up. But I'm not used to plugging them because it's been so long since comedy's happened. So I'll just say, Yeah, I make a podcast with the ABC called the signal every weekday morning, and it's

Dan Ilic 43:32

very good. And Mike Goldstein.

Unknown Speaker 43:35

You mentioned it before the phone hacks podcast me and a few other comedians smartphones go through the content we find that they're in and post on each other socials and hopefully live comedy comes back one day and I'll be on a stage somewhere near you. And Dave Bandon, what do you want to plug

Unknown Speaker 43:53

a small class action on behalf of eight kids in a non good equity generation boys calm Direct for

Unknown Speaker 44:00

I'm loving it.

Unknown Speaker 44:06

Oh nothing Dan still still doing a radio show every day. But yet Listen, I don't know. Hey guys,

Dan Ilic 44:12

Big thanks Bertha foundation our Patreon supporters post producer Jacob round on the tepanyaki timeline contributors in this episode with Jay Leno jokes include Gary Bradbury red pocket Dave bluestein dan Denver Golf Club Hey, Franklin Harrison Engstrom. Big thanks to Kate Holdsworth, please go get a go neutral sticker or chip in on the Patreon and please give us a review on iTunes. Until next week, there's always something to be scared of. Goodbye.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

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Recorded at our homes over Zoom — pumped through the RØDECaster™ Pro — into your ears.

TASMANIANS — Here is the link to tell Senator Jacqui Lambie to allow those stuck in detention to keep their phones:

On the podcast this week —

and Dan Ilic

Plus an interview with THE SAUCY NUGGS guy Ander Christensen.

This podcast is supported in part by The Bertha Foundation.

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Recorded at our homes over Zoom — pumped through the RØDECaster™ Pro — into your ears.

This podcast is supported in part by The Bertha Foundation.

G’day Fearmongers —

On the A Rational Fear podcast this week Bertha Fellow Linh Do and I are joined by friends of the show, James Colley and Alice Fraser. They downed tools from their own various TV shows and Podcasts to bring some ridiculousness to the podcast. We cover the NBA, RNC, Aldi’s move to 100% renewables, and Boris Johnson’s culture war on The Proms. And we ask NSW Minister for Energy & the Environment, Matt Kean about Koalas, chlamydia, conservation, and working in the environment space with a federal government hooked on fossil fuels.

In September, the Australian Youth Climate Coalition and Seed Mob are running a campaign to get families and friends to talk about climate change and raise money for those organisations. It’s called Speak Up For Climate. If you’re a young person, get your friends and family involved.

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Thanks so much to our new Patreon subscribers this week, we gave you a big shoutout on the podcast. So far we’re covering about 56.6% of the costs. If we get to 100% of our costs we’ll be able to start paying our guests, and create more fun things. Chip in, there’s heaps of rewards: watch the show being recorded live, get the ad-free version of the podcast, chat with the creative team on Discord, see videos first, and hear interviews before anyone else, but most importantly you ensure that we can keep making A Rational Fear in all its forms.

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G’day Fearmongers —

Dan Ilic here with a new A Rational Fear podcast, fresh from the AstraZeneca podcast labs to your device.

On the podcast this week: Just The Gist’s Rosie Waterland, author, thought leader and trouble maker Jamila Rizvi, and climate campaigner and fellow Bertha Fellow Linh Do.

If you live in the NT, Happy Democracy Sausage day to you!

We talk with Monica Tan from Repower NT about how renewables has managed to get on the agenda of all three major parties in the top end of town in the Top End.

Linh Do and I are starting a new monthly podcast on the A Rational Fear feed. Long-form conversations with leaders in climate change from around Asia-Pacific. It’s called: The Greatest Moral Podcast of Our Tim. So naturally the first conversation will be with former Prime Minister Kevin Rudd.

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It costs a bit of money to make each episode of A Rational Fear — so far we’re at about 49% of the costs of running it. If we get to 100% I’ll be able to start paying Lewis some money, or put it towards buying a coal mine in Queensland . If you enjoy our podcast, funny emails and important climate change conversations chip in here like a good sovereign citizen.

Thanks to Rode, Jacob Round, Rupert Degas, and the Bertha Foundation

TWITTER. FACEBOOK. INTSAGRAM.

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Guests —

Dan Ilic

Lewis Hobba

Sami Shah

Bec Melrose

Antonia Juharsz (US)

Paddy Manning (The Saturday Paper)

Yianni Agisiloau

and Kamahl

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Recorded at our homes over Zoom — pumped through the RØDECaster™ Pro — into your ears.

Dan Ilic here with this week’s A Rational Fear podcast polished up for your ears. Lewis and I are joined on the pod by Michelle Brasier (Mad As Hell) Greg Larsen (The Grub Podcast) as well as Dr. Matthew Rimmer from QUT’s law school.

We celebrate Climate Case Ireland. They took their government to court in 2017 over their weak greenhouse gas emissions targets and won! If we did that in Australia, we’d be stoned with lumps of coal.

We unload on Jim’s Mowing boss, Daniel Penman for offering to pay for his franchisees COVID19 fines, and a whole trailer full of other dodgy things he believes.

And we marinate in a Jonathan Swan / Norman Swan love-in. You may have seen clips in your feeds of an Australian journalist interviewing Trump in a way we haven’t seen before — by asking questions.

You can see the full 37min interview here. The whole piece is incredibly entertaining, (if you’re a masochist.)

Big thanks to Jacob Round for editing the Podcast and thank you to Patreon subscribers who help pay for Jacob and hosting.

This podcast and newsletter is supported in part by The Bertha Foundation.

If you can, donate $20 to the Lebanese Red Cross.

See you in your inbox next week with some more terrible news.

Dan Ilic

We’re also joined by Leanne Minshull from the Australia Institute. She explains to us the potential changes to one of the few pieces of Commonwealth environmental legislations, the Environmental Protection and Biodiversity Conservation Act.

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Recorded at our homes over Zoom — pumped through the RØDECaster™ Pro — into your ears.

Fearmongers in Melbourne's most contagious suburbs Yianni Agisiloau, and Isabella Valette join A Rational Fear captains Dan Ilic and Lewis Hobba who courageously recorded their end of the podcast in NSW.

Special guest: Dr Vyom Sharma.

Working on the frontlines of COVID19 in Melbourne, Vyom shares some of his hopes and frustrations with this current spike in cases in Melbourne.

And Dan Ilic asks Mark Zuckerberg why posts from climate denialists are categorised as "opinion" but climate scientists are categorised as "political"

BOOK a ticket to Yianni's "The Simpsons Taught Me Everything I Know" :https://www.trybooking.com/book/event?eid=621620&

A Rational Fear is made possible in part from our Patreon subscribers and the Bertha Foundation.

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Recorded at our homes over Zoom — pumped through the RØDECaster™ Pro — into your ears.

Recorded August 2019.

Recorded live, in front of a massive SOLD OUT crowd at Giant Dwarf ,some of Australia's best known journalists and a couple of Australia's least known comedians discuss the recent government crackdown on press freedom in Australia. (Waxed balls and All)

Hear what happened to Ray Martin’s interview with a top CIA contact. How Kate McClymont sends a death threat to bikie gangs. Ben Fordham gets his house AFP raid-ready and hides his embarrassing things. Alice Workman tell us what Peter Dutton really thinks about the potato comparisons. Dan Ilic breaches the espionage act live on stage. Lewis Hobba tells us why Seachange is good for democracy, and Greta Lee Jackson from the Australian Federal Police shuts the show down in breach of telling bad facts about the government.

Thanks to: DJ Dylan Behan, Greta Lee Jackson, Alison Piorowski, Sandra Sully, Network Ten, Killian David, David Bloustien, James Colley, Kate Holdsworth, Marcel Bracks, FBi Radio, Giant Dwarf, the MEAA, the Walkleys, Sleeping Giant, and GetUp!

00:00 Opening.

01:02 Introductions.

07:13 Press Freedom Discussion.

19:53 Sandra sully’s approved news.

21:20 Whistleblowers.

25:30 Social media policy restrictions.

27:59 Alice Workman vs Michaelia Cash.

36:27 Ben Fordham auctions off his embarrassing shit.

47:016 A Current Affair turn the cameras on the victims of press freedom.

50:11 Kate McClymont and race fixing.

58:50 ABC cuts having an effect already.

1:00:01 Ray martin’s missing CIA interview .

1:08:58 The afp shutdown the show.

1:10:40 AFP #QandA.

1:15:18 Lewis Hobba and why enjoying SeaChange is okay.

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Recorded at our homes over Zoom — pumped through the RØDECaster™ Pro — into your ears.

#ClimateWeekQLD

Hello Dan Ilic here —

Thanks to the Queensland Government for inviting us to perform at Climate Week .

The team of producers were incredible, and the production staff at the Brisbane Powerhouse were slick professional units.

You may notice there is one word we’re avoiding to say in the show. That word begins with A and ends in I, has Dan in between. We were told about 20 minutes before the show, so some minor tweaks had to happen on the fly. I’m sure you’ll enjoy listening to that as we go.

Bridie Connell and Wyatt Nixon-Lloyd do some topical music for us. Tom Ballard tells us that it’s all over and there’s no hope left. The Queensland Government put a bid in for the 2038 Nuclear Winter Games. MICF Pinder Prize winner Steph Tisdell give insects the tick of approval, and goes on the hunt for true love with an entomologist. Mel Buttle hopes that foodies will go extinct. Alan Jones has some thoughts on climate change. Professor Hilary Bambrick scares us all to death with what the real health ramifications are for humans on a warming planet. Lewis Hobba thinks he has solutions to the climate crisis, but ends up just blaming Queenslanders for it all.

It is truly and excellent 90 minutes of climate change banter.

00:00 — Pre Show: AFP Warning.

01:25 — Start.

02:15 — Introductions.

05:33 — Bridie and Wyatt Introduction.

16:25 — Fearsome Fears: Freedom Gas.

21:15 — Fearsome Fears: Flygskam.

25:00 — Fearsome Fears: The internet will be underwater.

27:30 — Tom Ballard: We’re all f***ed.

37:48 — Queensland’s Bid for 2038 Nuclear Winter Games.

40:16 — Steph Tisdell: Care about insects.

47:45 — Mel Buttle: Foodies must die.

1:00:30— Alan Jones’ Gloating.

1:03:35— Prof. Hilary Bambrick: Health and Climate

1:19:23— Lewis Hobba: Don’t vote for the climate.

1:28:50— Queenslanders Apologise to Australia.

1:30:03— Bridie and Wyatt’s Climate Love Song.

1:33:33— Credits.

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We had planned a big Tasmania special feat. Anthony Morgan, but sadly Anthony's internet didn't hold up and we couldn't get a conversation going.

But we were joined by Tassie comedian and actor Anna Kidd, and Jacqui Lambie media advisor Anna Bateman to talk about all things Tas. Also on the pod Yianni Agisilaou does a cracker set of stand up and Lewis and Dan keep the ball in the air.

Thanks to Jacob Round on the mix, Rupert Degas for his ad voice, and Anthony Morgan for dressing up his video conference bunker despite his internet not quite holding out for a conversation.

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Recorded at our homes over Zoom — pumped through the RØDECaster™ Pro — into your ears.

Ben Rhodes (former deputy National Security Advisor to Obama, Pod Save The World) shares with Lewis and I his thoughts on COVID19’s threat to democracy around the world, how populations can still protest during lockdown, the climate crisis, and a great anecdote about how Obama became frustrated with Tony Abbott when seeking global consensus on

Foreign policy politics can seem tricky to navigate and easy to dismiss as too hard, but Ben frames everything around a set of core values that brings clarity to foreign policy decisions.

We’re lucky to have him thinking about the world — and we’re thrilled have him on A Rational Fear.

The Obama Foundation, Jacob Round and Ben Rhodes.

00:00 - Introduction

01:45 - Start Interview

02:50 - Disinfectant

03:50 - Emergency powers eroding democracy around the world

05:20 - How are people still managing to protest in HK?

06:50 - Who does crisis better liberal democracies or authoritarian regimes?

11:30 - Oversight to powers

15:25 - Trump's reaction to the corona crisis

26:30 - Hope for the USA

31:00 - Distracted from the Climate Crisis

33:45 - Obama's thoughts on Tony Abbott

37:45 - Joining Cameo like Sean Spicer & Scaramucci

40:13 - Credits

Dan Ilic 0:31

All right, a very special irrational fear event with Ben Rhodes, former deputy national security adviser to the Obama administration and co host of crooked media's pod save the world. Ben, thank you so much for joining us on A Rational Fear.

Ben Rhodes 2:15

Good to be here, Dan. What I'd rather be

Dan Ilic 2:18

other than talking to people all around the world from podcast den, I assume you have a podcast den.

Ben Rhodes 2:25

I do. I'm I have to build like a pillow fort. to tape. I'm actually doing a different podcast now too. That requires better audio. They tell me so I've just surround myself with pillows and comforters but I'm not doing that for you, dad. I'm sorry.

Dan Ilic 2:42

That's okay. You know, I'd rather see your face.

Ben Rhodes 2:45

Yeah.

Dan Ilic 2:47

Ben, I know you're writing a book on authoritarianism right now. So kind of while the whole world is in enforced lockdown. I thought there's never been a better time to talk about the power and erosion of democratic norms. Lots of fun.

Ben Rhodes 3:01

Yeah, it's a great topic.

Dan Ilic 3:03

Now in this chat, I think we've covered quite a bit of territory in the half an hour we've got with you the risk that COVID-19 poses to democracy around the world how people in robust liberal democracies can not only protect their institutions, but also support those around the world who live under more authoritarian regimes, and how the USA can overcome its federal leadership vacuum. So these are big, big topics, big topics, you know, you're you're gonna big brain and that's why that's why you're here. That's why you do what you do.

Ben Rhodes 3:30

I'll try, I'll see. We'll see what your listeners think. Now, the

Dan Ilic 3:35

first question is when it comes to choosing a disinfectant to inject. What do you prefer, bleach or dental?

Ben Rhodes 3:44

Well, you know, the United States has tried for a very long time to best we can set a good example for the rest of the world and, and now I think we, you know, tried a new territory with this innovative treatment of inhaling deadly disinfectants. You know, I'm a Lysol wipes person myself. wipes are harder because you have to choose. But a less face to say for all your listeners don't take this as seriously as some of Donald Trump's followers tonight,

Dan Ilic 4:13

you're trying to believe what you're trying to say is you're being sarcastic.

Ben Rhodes 4:16

Yes, exactly, exactly. As he now tells us he was.

Dan Ilic 4:22

Well, you know, we've seen countries around the world like Poland and Hungary effectively kind of dismantle democratic processes under the guise of Coronavirus and emergency powers. Do you think that this is starting a trend for other states who are eyeing off, you know, all burned and polled?

Ben Rhodes 4:38

Yeah, I mean, you mentioned this book I'm working on part of the point of that book is that all these people, for the last decade or more have been learning from one another? Viktor Orban Donald Trump, Modi in India, bolson arrow in Brazil, Xi Jinping in China, Putin, of course. So they already kind of learned from one another and it's not unusual that in a crisis, an authoritarian Might take take more power for themselves. And as usual, or bonds kind of been at the vanguard of this, the Hungarian Prime Minister for the last decade, and he was among the first to essentially grant himself dictatorial powers early in this crisis, and we're seeing some people follow suit in Poland. Modi's certainly acted in dictatorial ways recently to begin with, and that could be expanding now. So it's the Chinese, even in Hong Kong, in the last couple weeks have been cracking down arresting protesters. So I think, you know, unfortunately, we should anticipate in the next, you know, few weeks and months, a movement by some of these leaders to take and hold even more power than they already have.

Dan Ilic 5:47

With Hong Kong. It's certainly something we've been because it happens in Asia, which is kind of out words we kind of pay attention to Hong Kong quite a lot and the part two pro democracy protests there over the last few weeks. Shocking, sending ripples through Australian media anyway, very amazing, amazing photos and pictures through Australian media. So we're really paying attention to it. How is that kind of movement going now and Coronavirus? And how are people still managing to protest?

Ben Rhodes 6:17

Well, you know, they were continuing to protest physically for as long as they could I follow this closely. I went to Hong Kong in December, met with a lot of protesters. I've stayed in touch with some of them. But right now, frankly, it's hard. I think if you talk to them, one of the things that they are hoping will sustain this movement they built is one of the innovative things that they've done is there's an entire culture around this movement. So it's not just street protest, its songs, its means its artwork. It's a kind of virtual community. It's kind of endless telegram threads. So I think their hope is that the oxygen of this culture will sustain them. There's important legislative elections in Hong Kong later this year in the fall, that I know has been a focus of the movement for some time. And this will be a test, Dan but one thing I'd say to people when we start on the kind of pessimistic note of what these leaders are doing in some places, including in Hong Kong, you know, the reality too is there's going to be massive economic fallout from this and it's gonna blow back. So while the first phase of this Coronavirus, reality politically might be more power for the authoritarian authoritarians, I think the second phase when we get six months to a year out, maybe that pendulum swinging back hard against some of these folks who are in power and and that may happen in Hong Kong when people can get back out in the street, there may be a pent up nature to what we see happen. Hmm.

Dan Ilic 7:47

Who do you think is doing a better in terms of handling the crisis liberal democracies or authoritarian regimes? This is kind of like questions. It seems to me a kind of a mix like I particularly when you're looking at balsa narrow And Trump and these folks who have authoritarian tendencies just don't seem to think COVID is a real deal.

Ben Rhodes 8:08

Yeah, well, we've been, you know, the baseline for what not to do in the United States. But, you know, the funny thing is, when you look at it, it's really it doesn't split the on democratic and authoritarian lines. You know, people have been trying to make that kind of judgement. The reality is, it splits them with other government is competent or not. And, you know, South Korea and Germany are democratic countries, with long standing democratic norms, institutions, and they've handled this quite well as unsurprisingly. So a lot of the Scandinavian countries, not Sweden, but the rest of them. Whereas, you know, other democracies, United States, Brazil that you mentioned, I think the kingdom have not handled it particularly well. And similarly with authoritarian countries, you know, China, really mishandled it out of the gate. In part because of their authoritarian nature, which led to people not reporting the truth up the chain led the people at the top to not want to come clean and precious time was missed at the beginning, then you saw a very, you know, I think effective response once they got their act together. So, you know, it's it's mixed in. And I think what that tells you is it's not in this type of crisis. It's not necessarily always can be determined by the system that you need. If you're a democracy, you need to elect competent people, as well as having a democracy.

Dan Ilic 9:34

But let's not let's not beat around the bush, there are some very competent or authoritarian regimes out there.

Ben Rhodes 9:39

Yeah, yeah. I mean, well, there's, you know, Singapore, right is always kind of the gold standard for competent, at least semi authoritarian regimes. And yeah, they've been quite effective, although they've had some challenges recently. Yeah. So I mean, I think, look, the problems in the United States you know, have to do with The fact that we have a one major political party that's gone kind of nuts over the course last decade, and Donald Trump is the reaction to that really was the result of the end result of that. And that's, you know, that's that's what explains our response.

Dan Ilic 10:15

And when you were in the driver's seat under Obama, how tempting is it to, you know, throw out a few rights in order to get your policies enacted? when you're when you're in that? Yeah,

Ben Rhodes 10:24

I mean, it's a good question. Um, you know, what was interesting about that, Dan, is that we inherited a lot of policies that in you know, I think went pretty far in terms of trading away certain rights for counterterrorism purposes. Patriot Act service, mass surveillance, in particular, the stuff that came out in the Snowden revelations, this kind of massive post 911 infrastructure, and we ended up spending a lot of time kind of trying to figure out how much of that to keep versus how much of that to try to scale back in terms of government power. You know, what's frustrating you we had a pandemic, or we had an outbreak of Ebola that didn't become a pandemic. And you know, there wasn't really any. The key to that response, which was quite well, you know, didn't really have to do with taking away people's rights at all. I think in this one, the most interesting questions have to do with what happens when societies kind of resume economic activity, and you start using technology like South Korea and Taiwan have been using technology to track who's sick and who's not, and maybe even to take people's temperature, that kind of thing. And, you know, that that makes a lot of sense in terms of tracking and a disease. You know, whether you want the government to know where you are at all times and what your help is, is a different thing. So my hope is, is that those kinds of powers are taken by governments if they're temporary, that they're it's, it's made clear at the outset that this is a temporary measure put in place just for this emergency.

Dan Ilic 12:09

Yeah. When I first emailed you about doing this, we were looking at, kind of on we're looking at kind of power structure in Australia, which wouldn't have any checks and balances for this this crisis. So I was like, gonna get on the phone to Ben see what Yeah, but since then, is a senate oversight committee to our national Corona response, which is, which is good, which is kind of standard in this country.

Ben Rhodes 12:34

Yeah, yeah. No, I mean that but I think that's the key thing is just to make sure somebody's looking over somebody's shoulder at all times.

Dan Ilic 12:42

It's kind of interesting, like Parliament for Australia anyways, kind of is out of school until August 1. In the meantime, this is National COVID-19 commission that's been formed to manage a crisis made up of a board whose experience is pretty much based around minerals, mining energy. One guy who is like the chair of the csro, but I wouldn't call him a doctor because he's not a doctor. And so what does that say about Australia reservation that their, that their national kind of board that's kind of responding to this while parliament is not in session?

Ben Rhodes 13:18

Well, you know, it's Yeah, you know, what's funny about that is is you learn kind of who is the actual power structure in your country when the bottom falls out, in a way, you know? So what that tells me is like, those are the people who actually have the power in Australia, in the same way that the United States, frankly, when we've had crises, bankers, you know, banks, major corporations are often the people who seem to suddenly have a lot of power to determine what happens, you know, we just, you know, a few weeks ago passes $2 trillion bill to essentially try to bail out, you know, the economy. And first of all, you wonder, where do we get this $2 trillion from But then yeah, I mean, I think the the impulse of the republican party as with the, the financial crisis in 2008, when when george bush was in office, the first impulse was to bail out these big corporations and to bail out banks. And, you know, kind of the Democrats in the House had to be like, Hey, what about actual small businesses are and workers who've been laid off? But yeah, I think Yeah, so for Australia, its its energy, interest mining interest, right? who've kind of been the power behind the strings is certainly in the Conservative Party. Just like in the in the United States, we find the heads of major corporations and banks are the people who end up seeming to be making these key decisions when we hit these crises. Then

Lewis Hobba 14:44

when we sort of Australia is looking at America's handling of this at the moment it like, I mean, doesn't it looks like a bit of a mess. When America is America bother looking at Australia like we spend so much time looking at you. Do you look at does anyone even notice what we're doing? Is that something that's on anyone's mind?

Ben Rhodes 15:01

I mean, you know, here Yeah, I mean, it basically, I think the United States looks at, you know, what we tend to do is look at a mix of different countries who seem to represent different regions, right. You know, so you always have a few European countries you're looking at, then you always have kind of South Korea and Japan and East Asia and then you do you look at Australia, and then around Indonesia and India. I don't suggest there's like a lot of time spent. It's usually just like, what are the metrics of how many tests people have done and how many cases there are and is somebody doing something in particular that seems to be working or not, you know, and in that case, I think

Dan Ilic 15:37

Tom Hanks getting Coronavirus um, Hanks getting Coronavirus on the Gold Coast was a really high point for the world looking at Australia's COVID response

Lewis Hobba 15:46

Yeah, if we kill Hanks will never forgive us. And yeah,

Dan Ilic 15:50

I act his attitude to Vegemite was really set the set the scales.

Ben Rhodes 15:54

I think we're all wondering just what what the hell was Tom Hanks doing in Australia in the first place? Like we had no idea. You know, I mean, there's America's treasure right? It's great for the Elvis movie. Well, yeah, maybe that was the point. But the thing is, is that like Australia I think has not you know, distinguished itself for either having a particularly exceptional response or particularly bad response and so therefore, it hasn't gotten the same attention as a bunch of other countries in the US we excel in the middle that's Australia you excel you're right in the middle which by the way, I would trade to be in the middle of

the middle looks pretty good from the bottom.

Dan Ilic 16:30

Well, Ben, let you know. Your Lewis did say the US does look like a bit of a mess. So my question is, how much of this is Obama's fault?

Ben Rhodes 16:39

Well, if you listen to Trump, all of it would be I you know, this has been the most frustrating time for me as you can imagine, but I mean, mainly because we got this massive scare in 2014 with a bola and that ended up okay. You know, we had to mobilise the US military sent to West Africa. Were to send 10s of thousands of health care workers and lots of supplies there. But we also learned a lot from that. So we tried to having been scared. Okay, what does the government need? We need an office in the White House to coordinate this we, we created an actual playbook. What do you do if there's a pandemic, we develop these tools so you can develop and produce healthcare equipment, if you needed to an emergency, we had all these international protocols. And what's been so frustrating is all that stuff was kind of wrapped in a bow and handed off to Trump. They clearly just scrapped, totally ignored. And so they went in, you know, if they'd literally just opened a drawer and found, you know, the playbook that we left for the pandemic and some of the things in that playbook, they would have been producing testing, and ventilators and masks and other things throughout February instead of falling so far behind but but because they have such a disdain for anything Obama did and for government itself, they just completely ignored that right and that was also

Dan Ilic 17:58

there isn't. There's so many vacant places in public service in America that is still yet to be kind of filled or people aren't wanting to take charge.

Lewis Hobba 18:08

Yeah, administrator.

Ben Rhodes 18:09

Yeah, to me, it's kind of the price of chaos, you know, like so we were when when we were in the transition, right, the period of time after the election, Obama's own office, we actually did an exercise a cabinet level. So the senior most people in the government exercise on what happens if there's a new kind of flu pandemic. So basically, exactly the scenario, so that each of the people in these key positions would be able to inhabit the experience of making those initial decisions. And the reality is, even if they were paying attention, which at the time, it didn't seem like they really were. Almost none of those people are there, right? Because Trump goes through these people like one one a year. So the chaos of that kind of turnover, and the kind of disdain for government which means that lots of these positions go unfilled. And the idea that we don't really listen to experts to begin with, you know, we're paying the price for that. Now, it's kind of the, if you have a president who, who doesn't like his predecessor, who doesn't like science, who doesn't like government experts and doesn't feel positions, a pandemic is basically the worst possible thing that can happen. Because that's when you need government. That's when you need experts. That's when you need to learn from your predecessors. And so this is of all the things that could hit Trump, this is probably the worst possible one that he was designed for, beyond his expertise and disinfected. And

Lewis Hobba 19:37

you were talking before about the different things that might happen as a response to this particularly in authoritarian regimes. But in America, like there is such a belief in in some parts of America about small government getting rid of government, for the government, like it's a government position. Do you think now that we're looking at this, wishing that there was a functional government in governments around the world We all sort of have this desire now for just a functioning bureaucrat. The government. Yeah. Just to any government that works. Do you think that's gonna happen in America at all? I think there'll be a wish for that to come back.

Ben Rhodes 20:11

I mean, certainly, among part of America, I mean, there's been this kind of, gosh, 30 year war against government from the, from the Republican Party of the right wing of the Republican Party, you know, dating all the way back to Ronald Reagan. Really, small government. You know, one of America's most famous conservative activists famously said he wanted to make government small enough that you could drown it in the bathtub. Not a nice image, of course, but and now I really do you know, I feel like we're seeing kind of the price of that because, you know, what, what, what do you mean when you're saying you're cutting but government? Well, you're cutting budgets for things like the centres for disease control, you're cutting funding for the National Institute of Health. You're cutting funding for the things that you need as a backstop, and effective crisis, I think in the our election, you know, is going to kind of play out on the terms you've described. And since that, look, Joe Biden is not the most charismatic, young new face. But what he is, is someone who offers the stability of like, well, this guy knows what government does, and he'll hire the smart people. And, you know, there's a theory of elections in the US that we tend to elect the opposite of the person who went before you know, so you had Bill Clinton fall by George W. Bush fell by Barack Obama fall by Donald Trump so that that does seem to be like people turn to something different. That's Biden. That's a wildly even like, that's a crazy oscillating pendulum that's just think about it, but at some point, I'm getting whiplash and thinking about it and but I think by the Congress by an offer is therefore is not youth in, you know, inspiration. But it is like, okay, just someone who will, frankly the idea of government, just being You know, boring is appealing now, you know, we, let's just get people in there who know what they're doing. We don't think about it every day and we don't live a psychodrama on Twitter every day. We have a president who just hires the right people, makes the key decisions, you know, tries to lower the temperature of the power politics and get things done. And there's a hunger for that.

Dan Ilic 22:23

And then finally, the pendulum can swing again and the republicans will have in 2024 Kanye West, right?

Ben Rhodes 22:28

Yeah.

Lewis Hobba 22:30

Yeah, you did Australia. We always talked about like the pod test for our latest like it's, we always like someone want to have a beer at the pub with. And that's pretty much what we did in the last election. And now I think a lot of people are just going I don't need a person to have a beer with not only am I not allowed to go to the pub to have a beer. I just want a nerd who's read the books.

Ben Rhodes 22:49

Yeah, but and I could never figure that out because I certainly didn't want to have a beer with Tony Abbott Gus.

Dan Ilic 22:57

I think no one in his party. What are they doing?

Ben Rhodes 23:00

Yeah, I just gonna just gonna put that out there.

Yeah, no, I we have to get back on the beer thing here too, you know, not that I predict when I have a beer with Donald Trump but uh, you know, sometimes that's not the thing you're looking for in your prime minister,

Dan Ilic 23:15

when I was when I was looking for a photo today, they're kind of put on the web post that we're talking with you I found all these great ones of you behind the behind the White House podium. And I thought well, how Trump has done so much damage to brand USA. And, and that visual identity does it concern you that you have so many photos of you on the White House briefing room podium? Well, yeah, yeah, I feel bad brand.

Ben Rhodes 23:44

I gotta tell you, it's so funny to, to think back the first time I had to give a briefing in the White House, that kind of iconic White House podium. I was really nervous. And actually, I'd later figured out that I were different colours. socks that day.

Thankfully escaped notice

Lewis Hobba 24:04

problem in contrast to the substitute?

Ben Rhodes 24:08

Yeah, that's about as dramatic as it got. But I mean, it's true for the entire pregnancy. Like, there was such a, you know, I grew up I watched the West Wing, like, these places were kind of, you know, we don't have loyalty here. I'm like, you guys. So, the, the, the White House, the presidency is kind of like this mixture of the seat of government, but also like the, you know, the, the seat of the state. And one of the most, you know, depressing things has been watching all of those settings can be debased and degraded, you know, just by Trump, but but but these, you know, kind of mix of grifters and competence and ideologues around him. And so yeah, it is kind of jarring. I spent so much time in this kind of small spaces and to see, you know, Trump up there talking about, you know, sunlight, curing diseases and and, you know, taking disinfectant and the rest of it, it does feel like it kind of bases the whole institution. And I'm curious if Trump is defeated, or if he ever is no longer present, which I presume will happen at some point. Whether that kind of reverts back and people once again, think about the American presidency that way and think about those settings that way, or whether he's kind of permanently done some damage.

Lewis Hobba 25:22

It's you think, sorry, I was gonna say, is there any part of you that watches what the White House does now and thinks, God, I didn't realise you could get away with that. And that's something that you would have you had gone Oh, we should have just done that. We didn't realise we could be ourselves.

Ben Rhodes 25:38

Yes. Yeah. There's two levels to that. I mean, one is Yeah, like I used to, you know, I was in charge of our communications on foreign policy now security. So that meant, you know, I was kind of the final person to look at any statement they went out or obviously a presidential speech, and you would act on the nerves you would feel about what you know, getting if there was a typo in there, you know, I mean,

Dan Ilic 26:00

like, Man, I've read your book and you you actually you, you manage to Trent translate your anxiety or communicate about rocking every little bit of word. I was so nervous reading your book about so you when you're writing speeches and communications with fat Ben really fucking cares shit.

Ben Rhodes 26:21

Well you know, contrast is like

Dan Ilic 26:22

fucking Trump's get up there riffing. It's like, yeah,

Ben Rhodes 26:25

yeah, no, that's right. And so, you know, and look, I mean, I'm glad that we cared and I think

Dan Ilic 26:32

the world class is really glad that you checked.

Ben Rhodes 26:34

One, I think I think people cared about what Obama said, because they figured that he was very careful about what he said. But it is amazing to look back and think about the, the precise care we took about words, and that's obviously totally gone. But there is something I will say that like, you know, I'm not, I'm not crediting Trump with this. But but the you know, sometimes I Do you think you, you impose kind of limits on what you mean, in the second Obama term? For instance, we started to kind of let it rip a little bit more, you know, the opening to Cuba. Yeah. You know, the, obviously the Iran nuclear agreement, you know, Paris accord, things that were seen as politically very risky. We just did them, you know, and you started to realise, you know, on Cuba friends, which, which I worked on, the only reason you'd be like, Well, why do we have this crazy Cuba policy? And people just say, well, you don't you don't touch that, you know, that's politically, you know, toxic, you know, and it's like, well, why not? You know, so there is there is something healthy about being willing to break from convention. But, but to this extreme, taking it to this extreme is not healthy.

Dan Ilic 27:49

Well, let me ask you this. How, how do you have hope at this point for America and for overcoming this federal leadership vacuum like heading into disarray? And Saison

Ben Rhodes 28:02

I mean, I think that

it's hard not to be pretty dark about where we are right now.

I, I did think look, you know, obviously, this is the worst possible way for this to be playing out in terms of the loss of life and the economic damage. And what's happening is, you know, we're seeing the result of electing someone who just shouldn't be president who just doesn't have any skills required to do that, who kind of represents some of the worst impulses of America in terms of hubris and narcissism and belligerence? I think my only hope is, you know, as we were talking about earlier, that this is kind of gonna wake enough people up to the fact that we got to just get our stuff together. You know, I mean, America's Got a not only do we have to elect someone different in this election, but I mean, we Got to cut it out here, you know, with the indulgence of this kind of right wing populism that is infected us, like a lot of other places, with the disdain for government and expertise. You know, we are the richest country in the world with the most resources in the world. And we have basically the worst response to this pandemic of anybody in the world, if you just look at the cases, and the deaths and the spread of this thing, certainly among the advanced economies. And so my hope in a way is that, as with the whole Trump presidency, that this is waking people up and that this will mobilise people, and that people understand that this government matters that the national cohesion matters. And that, frankly, we, if you indulge conspiracy theory and kind of toxic kind of right wing media, you end up with a guy standing at a podium talking about disinfectants, you know,

Dan Ilic 29:53

is it any kind of sense from people who worked on the Affordable Care Act that they've got a sweet level of shouting froideur right now?

Ben Rhodes 30:00

Yeah, I mean, well, yeah, that that's the thing actually that, you know, the weird thing about the United States is a lot of the debates you know, are moving from my my, obviously political perspective, are moving even further to the left, even while Donald Trump is in office. So the Affordable Care Act that was seen as as kind of radical takeover of the healthcare system by government 10 years ago, is now seen as this pretty centre centrist middle of the road plan. And and, and I think that will mean that, you know, if Joe Biden's elected This is this will grow into even more of a moral more of a generous healthcare system than we had before. So I yeah, I think I think a lot of things Obama was trying to do, where he got some of it done, not all of it done, as difficult as the Trump years hard to see him try to take, you know, like an axe to it. I actually am somewhat optimistic that 1015 years from now we'll look back and realise that okay, all that stuff. Obama started ended up getting done. It just had this kind of major detour under Trump.

Lewis Hobba 31:04

And is there any discussion at all about what might happen with the elections in the states if people are still in lockdown? And like we've been talking about people becoming authoritarian regimes? Is there any chance he delays the election or puts it off?

Ben Rhodes 31:21

No, he can't really do it. Because under our system, the state's

administer elections in Congress, I think Congress would have to support him and putting off the election, because it's also mandated in federal law that had happened on that particular day. So I think the debate the United States is turning to male voting, whether people are going to be able to vote by mail in the election. Trump has resisted that because like republicans always resist things that allow people to vote in the United States. It's actually peculiar to me that they are because, frankly, in hopefully they're not listening to this podcast, but the the secret is that older people tend to vote for republicans and voting by mail might be helpful to them. My view is that everybody in this country should have the option to vote by mail. I don't care whether that means they're more likely to vote Democrat or Republican. And I do think you'll see. I think that's where this will end up. I think, I think, you know, the vast majority of states will have, if not universal vote by mail certainly make it much easier for people to request mail in ballots and, and we may have an election where there's not nearly as much in person voting, but a lot more voting in the mail.

Dan Ilic 32:41

And while we wrap up here, I just kind of want to have a quick chat about climate change at sea. It feels like this crisis is just distracting us all from the biggest crisis possible. Particularly for Australians, like over Christmas, we had these incredible bushfires that ripped through large swathes of the country, even when We met Ben back in KL flying out to KL looking out the window, seeing for four hours, just smoke in over the continent was just incredible. And at that point in time, I think Australians were more conscious of the climate crisis than ever before. What our governments missing at this point in time to be able to pivot towards a climate crisis front heading heading out of this crisis to this current COVID crisis, do you think?

Ben Rhodes 33:32

Well, I'll tell you what worries me. What worries me is that we're going to go into this kind of deep recession everywhere. And what is going to be tempting for a lot of countries, particularly the large developing countries, like China, and India, is when they're trying to jumpstart the economy again, saying, well, let's, let's put aside these plans to shift to renewable energies because it's a lot cheaper to just You know, fire up the coal fired power plants and get energy moving that way, you know. And so you could see kind of short term economic stimulus measures that turned back to coal and dirty forms of energy in ways that are damaging, obviously to even the minimal ambition of what was in the Paris accords. You because what's necessary, I mean, that what we should learn from this pandemic, right? Is what was so frustrating this country is here is a this pandemic is this disease is spreading. The scientists are telling us this is going to happen. If you'd listened to the scientist, you would have done certain things right away. And we didn't do them. And so therefore, a lot of people are getting killed. And it really is a miniature analogy for climate change, like the scientists are telling us this is going to happen. We can even see it starting to happen in Australia, and what you need to do, you really need to wholesale change your entire makeups of your economies. You know, like, we can't You know, there's no other way to do this guys, you know, there's no, there's no third option here between transitioning from fossil fuels to different forms of energy. And you can do that in stages. And you can do that in ways to cushion the blow for certain industries. But that's what's really going to be required here. And, and I think, I hope well, we've just lived through kind of once again tells us that like, ignoring scientists are telling you something bad is gonna happen is ultimately gonna cost you a lot more in the long run than then taking action right away. And this is the debate, you know, that we had. Well, first, we had partners and Kevin Rudd and Julia Gillard. But these are the debates we had certainly with with with Abbott,

when when Obama was

Dan Ilic 35:46

so tell me, let's go deep on that for a second. With Abbott, what kind of conversations were you having with him and his partners?

Ben Rhodes 35:55

Well, what was so frustrating with that, and look, I mean, it's no secret Obama You know, Tony Abbott was far from his favourite leader to begin with.

Lewis Hobba 36:03

Ours either, for the record.

Ben Rhodes 36:05

Yeah. And, you know,

what was frustrating with Abbott? You know, is he was kind of very sure of himself without really knowing what he's talking about. And no, I remember Obama rarely and he actually got on well was the centre right politicians and you know, Uncle Merkel and David Cameron. So it's not like he couldn't work with someone, you know, who is on the right side, you know, the right end of the spectrum, not the right side. And, but I'll tell you the anecdote that really drove this home to me is that, you know, we were, you know, we came to Australia, I believe, yes, right after we reached the bilateral agreement with China, in 2014. That became kind of the basis of Paris accord. And we were trying to get Australia just do some minimal stuff, you know, you know, ambitious, or even not that ambitious, just a target of emissions. We're done. Or some funding for developing countries to develop, you know, clean energy. And Abbott was just kind of tone deaf on this thing. And, and Obama remember gave a speech before the G 20. in Brisbane, where, you know, we had like a paragraph about climate change written into the speech, and Obama got to that paragraph. And he just went way off the text, and was just basically blasting the Abbott government in ways that he almost never did on foreign soil and pointing out the Great Barrier Reef disappearing. And that an Abbott was upset. You know, this was like, you know, he was supposed to be this big stage for him hosting the G 20. But it's like, Well, look, if you want to host the G 20. Like you got to step up and be an international leader. And we've got everybody else kind of rallying around this effort to get to an ambitious climate agreement the next year in Paris, and Abbott was really one of the last holdouts dragging his feet you know, and no coincidence. You know who his key political supporters are? We mentioned people in the mining and energy industries. no coincidence. Rupert Murdoch media in Australia, also very friendly to those industries and, and so it wasn't hard to put that together. Why that guy was dragging his feet.

Dan Ilic 38:17

It might surprise you. I don't know if you know this, but probably the thing that sealed the deal for Australians and Abbott was when he was Prime Minister and he wants to he wanted to instigate. So you know, we talked about all the climate policies or the retrograde kind of policies are around that kind of stuff. But the thing that really turned Australians against Abbott was when he wanted to institute knights and dames a new award system where he would create an Australian system of knighting people and gaming people, and the first knighthood he gave was to Prince Philip.

Ben Rhodes 38:49

Oh, well,

I didn't I did not know that. I will tell you that whenever we were really annoyed with Tony Abbott. We would watch the video of that speech by Julia Gillard.

Yeah, well, that speech got watched a lot.

Let me put it that way.

Lewis Hobba 39:07

You know when, when when all the video. So when all those handwashing videos were coming out at the start and they were like, you need to wash your hands for at least 20 seconds and people were giving me like songs like wash it for the length of happy birthday. There are a lot of people who are going you just need to wash your hands for the length of Julia Gillard misogyny speech. Nice.

Dan Ilic 39:27

Yeah, well, seven minutes. Exactly. Well, Ben, thanks for joining us on irrational fear. It's a real privilege to have you.

Ben Rhodes 39:37

Yeah. Good talking you guys.

Dan Ilic 39:38

And I've got a question. Have you ever thought about joining cameo because some of your predecessors like Sean Spicer and Anthony Scaramucci are both on there?

Ben Rhodes 39:47

Yeah, I you know, what a surprise that there's a pipeline from the Trump administration to reality tell.

Dan Ilic 39:56

Let's have a list. Let's have a listen to a lot of them. Here's Sean Spicer.

Sean Spicer 40:00

Guys, it's Sean Spicer this month on cameo I'm donating all the proceeds to the yellow ribbon fund. It's an organisation that supports our nation's caregivers to the our wounded service members. So think about that video. Happy birthday, St. Patrick's Day. Daylight Savings Time. do well on the primaries, if you're a presidential candidate, Lent, that's always a good one. You name it. There's so many good reasons to send a shout out video to the person that you care about. Maybe a complete stranger. So when you want to ask them in a date doesn't matter. It's for a great cause. Think about it. Consider Thanks a lot.

Dan Ilic 40:34

I would love a daylight savings dog from bed.

Lewis Hobba 40:37

Yeah. Oh, yeah. Eating as well. Getting chillin spice awesome on a date for you. That's a no, that's a hard No.

Ben Rhodes 40:44

Yeah, no, that's, uh, you know, there's Trump used to say this. When he was running, we're not sending our best. And I think I think that's been manifest in the, in the appointments he's made.

Dan Ilic 40:57

Yeah, how much do you think Sean Spicer costs Ben? How much to pay for 32nd message from Sean Spicer?

Ben Rhodes 41:05

You know, I would pay someone to not send me.

Lewis Hobba 41:10

Haven't you paid enough?

Dan Ilic 41:12

charging 160 pounds. So 300 Australian dollars for a message, Scaramucci however, is a quite a bit less. He's only 40 pounds, but I guess he was in his office for about three hours. So

Ben Rhodes 41:26

yeah, it's like 11 day. No, no, nobody. I mean, all these guys are kind of grifters, right. That guy's somehow cashed in on 11 days in the job

Anthony Scaramucci 41:34

Hey it's the mooch I'm super excited to be on cameo. So you know what? I'll talk about anything as you guys know. So look me up. Dial me in and tell me what you want me to say to you. I'm looking forward to it.

Lewis Hobba 41:50

Oh, wow. It's just the people who are too stupid to write a book.

Ben Rhodes 41:53

Yeah, yeah. put that one in the time capsule.

Dan Ilic 41:56

Ben, thank you so much for joining us in irrational fear. Hopefully we can catch up with you again and Six months time so we can chat again.

Ben Rhodes 42:03

Yeah, hopefully we'll have different President.

Dan Ilic 42:07

Thank you so much thicker. Say bye bye

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

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Laughing in the face of COVID19 with our Fearmongers on this pod -

Recorded at our homes over Zoom — pumped through the RØDECaster™ Pro — into your ears.

and Dan Ilic

Maverick economist Professor Steve Keen talks through the alternative thinking around how Coronavirus monetary policy may play out in the long run for global financial markets.

Pru Blake brings us a twisted tale dating in the world of coronavirus.

Rupert Degas on the sponsor read, and Jacob Round for doing the dishes.

📨 SUBSCRIBE TO OUR EMAIL LIST: http://www.arationalfear.com/

Laughing in the face of COVID19 with our Fearmongers on this pod -

Recorded at our homes over Zoom — pumped through the RØDECaster™ Pro — into your ears.

and Dan Ilic

Corporations are sharing huge amounts of personal data with the Government in order to help track COVID19, and it's rumoured in a couple of weeks the Government will be asking us to down load an app to help track COVID19 cases. We chat with privacy expert Tim De Sousa about the trade offs required in order to get COVID19 under control.

We have a great stand up set from comedian Rose Bishop

— (00:00) Preamble, thank you to Patreon subscribers.

— (01:00) Start.

— (01:50) Introductions

— (03:07) SPONSOR: IPA

— (04:40) Wagga Wagga severed ties with it's Chinese sister city

— (07:24) Pete Evans magic light machine

— (16:40) Plague Privacy

— (34:06) STAND UP: Rose Bishop

— (39:50) Credits

📨 SUBSCRIBE TO OUR EMAIL LIST: http://www.arationalfear.com/

Recorded at our homes over Zoom — pumped through the RØDECaster™ Pro — into your ears.

The good news is that Pandas are getting their F on, the conservative socialists are making it rain fake money because they can, BoJo is out of ICU and the mortality rate in Australia is so far under 1% — Well done Australia.

Sometimes it’s easy to think Australians are a bunch of drunk deadshits body slamming on the beach licking toilets and creating disgustingly heartwarming internet content.

But, Australia, we’re getting there. The curve, like my career is on the way back down where it’ll inflict pain on fewer people. A good result for everyone.

Great podcast this week with TOM BALLARD (Like A Six Year Old), AMY REMEIKIS (The Guardian) PROF. HILARY BAMBRICK (QUT) Lewis Hobba (Triple J) plus interviews with UK Prime Minister Boris Johnson and Marcus Ryan does some coronavirus stand up.

Jacob Round, Robbie McGreggor, Rupert Degas, and Ella James.

📨 SUBSCRIBE TO OUR EMAIL LIST: http://www.arationalfear.com/

Recorded at our homes over Zoom — pumped through the RØDECaster™ Pro — into your ears.

Laughing in the face of COVID19 with our Fearmongers on this pod:

and Dan Ilic

We interview @Sooklyn from TikTok fame and Nauroze Anees about the risk of COVID19 inside Australia's detention centres. And we have some COVID19 Stand-up Comedy from Mick Neven, as well as a brand new episode of Newsfighters.

— (00:00) Preamble, thank you to Patreon subscribers.

— (01:27) Start.

— (02:28) Introductions.

— (04:08) SPONSOR: Fox Board Games.

— (05:45) We're a Nordic Socialist Democracy Now.

— (10:50) NRL Island.

— (12:27) Magnets up the nose.

— (17:50) Nauroze interview preview.

— (18:21) Sooklyn From TikTok Interview.

— (29:00) COVID19 inside Australia's Detention Centres.

— (34:00) Stand-up Comedy: Mick Neven

— (41:00) Credits

— (41:55) Newsfighters

📨 SUBSCRIBE TO OUR EMAIL LIST: http://www.arationalfear.com/

Recorded at our homes over Google Meet — pumped through the RØDECaster™ Pro — into your ears.

Comedians and experts ripping into the global pandemic — slowing the spread one pun at time.

This A Rational Fear brings together voice actor Rupert Degas, comedian Bec Melrose, international health student Dr. Jazmin Daniells, New York City broadcaster Brad Blanks and as a special treat comedian Kirsty Webeck comes by to delight us with 5min from her cancelled Melbourne Comedy Festival show.

(00:00) — Preamble, thank you mums.

(01:04) — Start.

(02:00) — Introductions.

(03:07) — SPONSOR: Robbie McGregor Reads Mark Latham’s Tweets.

(05:04) — Coping with Corona.

(08:40) — HRH Prince Charles interview.

(10:30) — Private School Principal Delivers Social Distancing Rules.

(12:00) — THEY INCREASED NEWSTART!

(17:22) — Health worker Dr. Jazmin Daniells.

(29:50) — Who is the COVID-19 Commission?

(32:14) — An Aussie in New York Brad Blanks.

(40:37) — Kirsty Webeck Stand Up.

(46:32) — Credits

(48:00) — Newsfighters

Stay at home — and listen to this.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

Dan Ilic 0:00

All right before we start a big thank you to our Patreon subscribers. We grew by just a handful this week. It's about very powerful handful, Louis. Big thanks to more of my family as well. It's funny you should mention that it's not more of your family but it is close personal friends of ours. Big thanks to Liz Adams and my mother in law, Jan Holdsworth who became scaremongers. Louis's mom is also scaremonger. My partner's mom is a scare monger. Let's all go for the moms of this podcast. It's really great. Is anyone giving us money that isn't related to us? I don't know. I just feel like a lot of people allied can't afford to subscribe to the Patreon which got me thinking, Louis, if you can't afford three bucks a month, maybe you could ask your mum to subscribe to our Patreon instead, tell them that it's franking credits like franking credit insurance for the for the apocalypse, they might as well most old people will actually tap out. Hey Blake, I made this episode of irrational fear in isolation. On the land of the gadigal in the eora nation, let's start the show.

Unknown Speaker 1:04

irrational fear contains no two words like bricks can rub and

Unknown Speaker 1:10

gum and section 40 of our rational fear recommended listening by immature audience.

Dan Ilic 1:17

Tonight Donald Trump says he'd like to see churches in America full at Easter time, all part of his greater plan to have old buildings in America empty by Christmas time. And this week the Australian Parliament went on recess for five months because there's nothing to do until then. And the 30 minute restriction on hairdressing appointment has been lifted but I'm not gonna get ahead CUT TO MY lift the restriction on allowing barbers to spit in your mouth like the old days, wash your hands and stay at home. This is irrational fear

a rational fear Yes, this Is the restaurant favourites Daniel. Let's Let's meet Alfie mungus for tonight he's one of Britain's best exports that not many people know about. He's the big fish shy a clanging of voice acting. It's Rupa de gas. Is that a fair introduction via Rupert as a marvellous I bless you bless

Unknown Speaker 2:15

your heart.

Dan Ilic 2:17

Nick, She's fast become one of the stars of Australian comedy scene. She is as versatile as a merengue but as complicated as a Pavlova. It's big Melrose.

Unknown Speaker 2:26

What an intro. I love it. I've never had a bakery themed intro.

Dan Ilic 2:30

And he is a staple of the show and he can be relied on to delight. He's the week bakes with sugar on top. It's Louis Alba. Oh, thank you, Daniel. I actually used to consume a lot of weight because it's sugar on top that's eerily accurate. It's like very bland and white bread, but it's like a little something on top a little bit of excitement. In this week's show, we discussed the government's rules for social distancing the stimulus package, we chat to a health worker on the front lines in here from an OSI stack in the petri dish of New York City. Also Kirsty Welbeck is coming by two to five minutes I've heard Melbourne Comedy Festival show and use fighters. We've just got too much content this way here is a message from our sponsors

Unknown Speaker 3:10

from lazy industries and audible. Robbie McGregor reads Mark Latham's tweets from his early defamation period

Unknown Speaker 3:19

in an office somewhere inside the education Bureau in Beijing this morning. Hi, New South Wales is four years behind that students in maths put Mark Scott, he's teaching them any less than 40% is gender equality, more laughter, that confusion for tears Kobe, to the ramblings of a man

Unknown Speaker 3:41

just discovering the dark web

Unknown Speaker 3:43

great lies of the elites. Someone with a penis can be a woman, man can have babies renewable energy can keep the lights on Australia is central to solving climate change. But people smuggler traders, compassionate. The Middle East is worth fighting for. The IB se is independent

Unknown Speaker 4:12

to misinformation and conspiracy dressed up

Unknown Speaker 4:16

as philosophy, a guide to bat in Orlando, and now my two sons are without jobs. The lesson is when humans lose their mastery and control over the animal world, which is what happened in Wu Han wet market, our entire civilization can suffer. Humans must always put themselves first animals. Second,

Unknown Speaker 4:39

download Robbie McGregor reads Mark Latham's tweets if you want to give yourself an aneurism

Dan Ilic 4:48

can't wait to download that. That's the only way I would consume Mark Latham's tweets is via Robbie McGregor, although I'm disappointed he didn't make them sexier, would have liked to hear him do like the full offseason. Faruqi court case but like he was doing an SPS porn. Well coronavirus, a disease 19 is the most famous of all the corona family so far has ravaged up to 2423 Australians in yet has to do one single colon with a makeup brand very disappointing for fans of this disease. How are you all coping this week with with your covert lockdown spec? How are you coping?

Unknown Speaker 5:26

I'm I'm over it already. But I'm counting myself pretty lucky in the scheme of things. I'm just a bit sick of the lack of clear communication that we're getting. I think we've never it's never been more important for us to have clear, decisive, persuasive communication and it feels like every day we're in this extremely stressful real life amazing rates. We're just tuning into the news for the next clue. Nothing's clear.

Dan Ilic 5:52

It's totally It is very strange like they the hairdressing limit got lifted today. If you go get a haircut for longer than 30 minutes, but still The rules of being 1.5 metres away from every person still apply I don't know a hairdresser with arms long enough to actually do a proper job

Unknown Speaker 6:09

nor do I or anyone who makes scissors that long I don't know what they're gonna do about that but

Unknown Speaker 6:14

the the lack of women in the cabinet of the coalition was so on display when the first round of those the cuts on cuts came out and they were like we can only let people in around hairdressers for half an hour. You're like, I realised that you're nearly bald already. Scott, you probably haven't had a haircut in the decade but total one woman who has had a hiccup that has gone for half an hour find me anywhere

Unknown Speaker 6:41

even the chat those longer than half an hour all the bullshit chat you get.

Unknown Speaker 6:45

I'm one of those balding that just needs to get that short haircut and when it gets long and fluffy at the back of the neck. It's like oh no, come on. And I only need five minutes at the barbers but they're like closed. And what did they say today you don't want to Gladys say today You don't need to get get your hair cut, like Well, okay, I'll just grow a little fluffy. You know peach fuzz on the back of my neck for the next six weeks.

Dan Ilic 7:08

I think I think having fluffy fuzz in the back of your neck is a fair trade off from Absolutely.

Unknown Speaker 7:17

Yeah, probably health emergency. I reckon I can go with a page because

Unknown Speaker 7:24

there's all these reasons to around like the differences between self isolation, quarantine, social distancing, physical distancing, no one's really clear on what anything is. My favourite thing though, that I saw this week. Like, I'm really grateful. We've got the ABC at a time like this, but I saw an article where they were stepping through the evidence behind each of the theories of how the virus originated. And they've got this photo of a pangolin. With this caption, it says a pangolin but not this specific pangolin could have passed the virus to humans.

Dan Ilic 7:58

As someone who has been an executive producer at the IBC I can understand how that caption would have come about someone in legal would have gone? Well, we probably we probably should make sure that pangolin isn't defamed at some point.

Unknown Speaker 8:10

Although penguins are known for being quite litigious, so you can't be caught leave any chance of a defamation suit. Why would

Unknown Speaker 8:16

you say that Chris Kenney fucked up pangolins.

Dan Ilic 8:21

But you can say you can say it on this podcast and that's totally fine because I don't have any lawyers and I don't have any money. So I come for me. You've got my mom's Patreon. Got Your mom's 10 bucks a month. Thank you, Margo. Now, Ruben, you you're also also a little bit confused by all of these social distancing roles. And yeah,

Unknown Speaker 8:40

I'm very confused. Because I think a pangolin might have come into Balmoral confused

Dan Ilic 8:48

I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Is that for its Charles but it's

Unknown Speaker 8:50

okay. It's totally stuck in stuck in my bed sweating. Camila's by my side. It's just one and a half metre distance isn't really any problem. And

Unknown Speaker 9:01

it's all fine. No, it's

Dan Ilic 9:04

no no Your Royal Highness Your Highness. You actually apparently you got the old covert bug from attending a bushfire benefit concert in London. He was fully Australian.

Unknown Speaker 9:20

came over they'd been on a ship from from from China. years. Now I don't know what happened. Yes, but I'm sweating and as Molly Meldrum killed me back in the 70s He's sweating like a pig.

Dan Ilic 9:36

And have you have you been amongst the the the other royalty Have you been with the Queen

Unknown Speaker 9:42

while you've been sweating? No ma'am he won't let me come anywhere near her unfortunately. But I do have my equity and my equity is got his and his his partner's got his and their child has got his but they've all recovered so I think it'd be fine.

Dan Ilic 9:56

Like at this point is like Queen Elizabeth is is a shaved head like blood needs to be tested in the same way that Keith Richards does, like

Unknown Speaker 10:05

she is immortal.

Unknown Speaker 10:07

Like if she survives, if Charles goes and and she's still alive, she's either knocking them off or she's a model. She's a vampire. There's any so many times so many times,

Dan Ilic 10:21

understandably route that you find this whole thing quite unclear. But you imagine what it would be like if a private school principal had to deliver this kind of information to his students. All right.

Unknown Speaker 10:37

So settle down.

Unknown Speaker 10:40

Right now before I begin the list of new measures announced by the Prime Minister this morning, those of you who are playing in the match this afternoon and only if you're an essential member of the team means you're close down onto the lower peg immediately after lunch which will be taken away only before you write your letter home with a sanitised pen. If you're not getting your hair cut for a maximum of 30 minutes but no yoga unless you've got a younger brother who's going out this weekend to a funeral with a maximum of 10 people, but not a wedding where only five people are allowed as the guest of another boy, in which case collector's note before lunch, put it in your letter after you've had your haircut. So no time for a wax, which is forbidden anyway, unless it's essential and make sure he moves your clothes down onto the lower paid for you now, sir, yes, why man,

Unknown Speaker 11:24

my younger brother is going at the table this weekend, sir, but I'm not having a haircut. So to me my clothes down or

Unknown Speaker 11:30

I do wish you listen Weimer. It's perfectly simple. If you're not getting your hair cut, you don't have to move your brother's clothes down to the lower pig. You simply collect his note before lunch after you've done your scripture prep. When you've written your letter home before rest, move your own clothes on to the lower peg. Greet the visitors keep a distance of 1.5 metres and report to Mr. viney that you've had your chick sign and then wash your hands for 20 seconds while singing happy birthday twice. Got it. Now where were we

Unknown Speaker 12:01

National Fair.

Dan Ilic 12:02

Well the coalition have gotten on the front foot and have done something akin to heresy for conservatives. They've doubled the amount of money available for new start making it an amount that's almost kind of livable. Now this is from a party whose mainly ideology is to undermine the public service at every step of the way. They defund health, they defund sighs I defund education, public media and welfare. They spent so long saying that they'll never ever increase new staff that they actually had to give new start a brand new name, and they've caught it jobseeker that way they can never look wrong at all. We never increase new stuff. We make something better we call it job seeker. Fuck off. But here's the thing. Western democracies around the world have kind of been figuring out other ways to do this. And in Denmark to do a lot more Denmark are paying up to 90% of the wages for workers kept on staff in New Zealand. They're paying $600 a week in Germany. They're providing government grants and loans to pay wages in Ireland 70 Wages up to up to 70 $750 a week they're being paid. In South Korea. 70% of wages are being paid, and in the UK up to 80% of wages being paid by the government, which is absolutely incredible. What do you think Australian the Australian Government should be doing to support workers? In this time?

Unknown Speaker 13:21

We've got to realise that in a lot of those situations, I think, certainly in the UK, many, many people cannot get access to that government funding, because that when you say wages, quote, unquote, they're only talking about a certain element of the workforce, you know, that over the last 20 3040 years, they've systematically destroyed public workers. It's all private enterprise now. And so they're talking about the public sector, and the public sector has been shrinking and shrinking and shrinking, and you've got more and more small businesses more and more self employed people. They can't access a red centre that so let's just be realistic, right? government's not handing money out with Nearly to everybody

Dan Ilic 14:00

what I've read it out is a lot rosier than what it actually is.

Unknown Speaker 14:03

Oh, absolutely, absolutely. It's I think it's I think it's just spin it's not actually true. It's going to the to the people who work in the public sector, not people who work in the private sector or who run small businesses or self employed and that certainly in the UK I don't know about other countries.

Unknown Speaker 14:18

I would definitely like to say the government doing more all from what I've read that looks like our response has been pretty peaceful comparatively, but and also just sending people out on the streets off to sign Kp distance don't go out, stay home, and then we've got queues around the block of people shoulder to shoulder queuing up for centerlink so that's what happens if they've dismantled the system over so many years and now it conquered

Dan Ilic 14:41

it is so it's so strange. I feel like liberal ideology is completely made the Liberal government inept at this point like they've like shot themselves in the foot to the point where they've like destroyed the thing that they need to kind of see this moment through. Yeah, the only person happy right now is Bill Shorten for losing that election.

Unknown Speaker 15:00

I came across this be

Unknown Speaker 15:02

thrilled. I mean, you'd hate to be a politician and a world leader right now, wouldn't you? I mean, you're damned if you do you're damned if you don't I mean, I don't feel sorry for them nor but by any means, because who would want to go into politics

Dan Ilic 15:14

but also Don't you think that like when like when you get an if you dream of like spoil your dream, when you get into sport is that you're in that position where you get the ball, the siren goes, you're one point down, it's your chance to be the guy that comes through and saves the day. This is that moment. Like, this is Rudy Giuliani before he went off the deep end, this is actually an opportunity to become a person if people look back on and they go Thanks to that person being a leader, which is literally their job. Yes, one and only job. They could we could look back in a year and be like, Oh my god, thanks to them. thousands of lives were saved. Either they don't care or they didn't want it all. They're not trying. It's a fucking disaster. What you're saying is, this is this is Scott Morrison's Andrew editing housing moment.

Unknown Speaker 16:05

He's knocked it on.

Unknown Speaker 16:10

He's getting

Unknown Speaker 16:10

sharpen testing in that guy knows how to play clutch.

Unknown Speaker 16:14

Notice the way you know, I'm Scott Morrison doesn't seem to show any real sympathy. He's just kind of getting angry and telling us all off, you know, stop it. Don't know, stop it. Now. It's an Australian, it's like, hang on, dude, we're all scared. Show us a bit of leadership, instead of, you know, now stop doing that. It's not Australian. It's like, come on mate.

Unknown Speaker 16:33

It's

Unknown Speaker 16:34

like unclear. I mean, as we were discussing earlier, like the, you know, the the fact that you can't even be clear on whether or not you can get a haircut and for how long? Like if you can't do that, like, oh, how do you expect to actually manage an economy, it's so baffling. And that, that same that message that he gave the other night in the press conference where he's like, you know, obviously, you can go out in groups and we don't want to specify how many because Australians should just use your common sense unlike might you Telling a group of people to use that common sense who is shoving each other in the toilet paper aisle

Unknown Speaker 17:08

arlie thing he's done really is give Richard Curtis a brilliant idea for a sequel, grimace sake whatever five people at a wedding 10 at a funeral

Dan Ilic 17:20

back Melrose

Unknown Speaker 17:23

style that guarantees to strip sentences off your thighs and a tick

Dan Ilic 17:30

tock video the 19 year old health workout who was spat on went viral yesterday. Here's some of that video now.

Unknown Speaker 17:36

Hi little coronavirus update from an Australian healthcare worker

Unknown Speaker 17:39

who works in a coronavirus

Unknown Speaker 17:40

team. Australians generally have this attitude towards coronavirus what they do not care whether they live or die or kill their grandparents or whatever, which is already super fun to deal with. But yesterday I had a patient spit on my face. We don't know whether he's confirmed or not. But he's been tested. We haven't got this one. Back at and he spat on my face because I'm going to get sick anyway. So let me know, let me in your country, you know like how is it you know, like health people?

Dan Ilic 18:11

Well that's some pretty fucked up stuff. People are on the edge more than anyone else would be health workers who are on the frontlines of this disaster. Joining us now is Dr. jazzy Daniels who is not only a Patreon subscriber of irrational fear, but is on the frontlines of in regional Australia waiting to deal with this disease. Jasmine, thanks for joining us on rational fear.

Unknown Speaker 18:32

That's right. Thanks for having me. Now,

Dan Ilic 18:34

what was your what's your experience like waiting for Call of Duty hit Tamworth where you are?

Unknown Speaker 18:38

So that's like a pretty interesting question. And I started out this year not working in health care and I'd gone back to university full time living in Sydney. So I've had a bit of a contrasting experience where I was with the general public for the beginning of coronavirus and carpet 19. And I was dismissive at first and I wasn't sure about social distancing, I wasn't sure about was coming out of China. It was a couple of weeks ago that it kind of hit home to me like how important this is, and what it will mean for health care. And I returned to Tamworth to work around of casual shifts there. And I've just finished those. And I've really started to see and understand what this is going to mean for Australian healthcare. I went on being in the hospital, and it feels as if that there is a tidal wave, and we can see it, we're staring out at sea and we can see it coming. But we don't know when it's going to hit an all we can do is try to prepare. And that's what's happening at the moment.

Dan Ilic 19:42

A lot of commentators are saying that, you know, we're we're two weeks out from something very severe in this country. Yeah. How are you going about to prepare for something? Yeah,

Unknown Speaker 19:51

so a lot of that is coming from senior staff in the hospital. And in the emergency department where I was working in Tamworth, the senior staff had been spending extra time planning and, you know, preparing in terms of what they're going to do for the patients that come in who were incredibly unwell, but also like, where to manage them and how to protect the rest of the patient population that is still going to be coming in. And that's one of the problems with this is that yes, we're going to have incredibly unwell patients coming in with Cova 19. But we're also going to have patients having heart attacks, having strokes, and motor vehicle accidents for people who are still driving around the country. And all of those things like add in Tamworth as farmers who are still going to be going about their daily work and they have a higher rate of workplace accident accidents as it is. So those people still kind of be coming in and we don't want to expose them to the coronavirus and so they're preparing special rooms and then how to get people into these rooms. they've reduced their elective theatre lists. So I'm operating theatre lists so patients that are coming in for procedures that can be delayed will be delayed and you Setting up different quarantine, and preparing how to intubate patients while protecting themselves. A lot of the senior doctors are older and immediately at higher risk, so they're really putting themselves on the line to take care of these patients or we're dissipating to take care of these patients while I was working there. We had some patients coming in and testing positive one who has gone to local media. So it's a very public knowledge that they're in there at the moment. We haven't had anyone incredibly unwell, but they're preparing for running through simulations of what that would look

Dan Ilic 21:37

like, how are they preparing you? like are they in terms of like equipment or protective? Yeah, like, what are they sort of telling you on how you can actually protect yourself? Because once we start, obviously there's so many issues as losing the ICU beds, but then there's also like losing, you know, health workers.

Unknown Speaker 21:56

There's a really high risk of health workers contracting Kevin And when they have that they can't work, obviously, because, you know, we're still looking after our other patients. In terms of preparing the junior medical workforce, I can talk mostly about what's happening in the hunter New England district, where I've been working for the last couple of years. And they're looking at, you know, keeping us in a hole keeping the doctors working there and their current positions rather than rotating them around. And there's other really important things about you know, having the correct personal protective equipment on and then how to get that on and off, which sounds a bit silly, but in that process of we call it donning and doffing is where you're at high risk of exposure. But with that, like when I add again, one of those things that I hadn't thought about until I actually saw it, I went when I worked in Tamworth emergency department, their zip tying down their hand sanitizer because people have been stealing it. You know, they're like, there's already issues that you we might run out of PVA and it hasn't hit yet. We are. I do agree that we're probably A couple of weeks away from saying perhaps what's happened in Italy. And so yeah, it's a bit frightening but there's there is support out there. But it's going to be a very difficult time for medical workforce around Australia.

Unknown Speaker 23:14

Jazz. Can I ask you if there's been any evidence yet that anyone who's contracted kovat 19 and then recovered if they then have built immunity and whether they could get it again?

Unknown Speaker 23:26

I've been asked this question a lot recently. I don't have I've heard that someone has reconstructed it but I've not like I've not validated that myself. So I'm not sure exactly about whether or not you have it and then have lifelong immunity. Or if yes, I can't answer that one. Sorry.

Dan Ilic 23:42

I think the only way you can get immunities to tribal council. I think we need to

Unknown Speaker 23:49

protect that idol.

Dan Ilic 23:52

Yeah, how are you feeling Jess? Like how are you feeling with this? looming kind of in your workplace very soon.

Unknown Speaker 23:58

Yeah, sir. I have a baseline level of anxiety that I've never really experienced before.

Dan Ilic 24:05

Is everyone nothing? Yeah.

Unknown Speaker 24:08

Yeah. So that's, that's real. And so I'm I. So this year, I did a bit of background about myself, I'd actually stopped working full time to undertake a Master's of international public health. And I'd moved my life to C, D, and I was undertaking my full time face to face classes, which lasted three weeks before they were pulled online. And at which point I decided it was best to return to the medical workforce. So I've withdrawn from my studies, and I'm now looking at different work options. And so, so in terms of how I'm feeling about it, yes, it's actually really scary. And I think we can only be as prepared as we can be, but hopeful in the sense that we can still make a difference and we talked about flattening the curve and it's not too late to do that. It's not too late to start social distancing to work from home. And I know that this is going to have huge economic impacts on people. And it already is, but hopefully I will. We spoke about this earlier that hopefully the government can support those who aren't able to work and they'll have enough to live and then we'll rebuild. So from there, but you have been exploring where I can be of the most use

Dan Ilic 25:24

now with your masters was an international help. Did you say?

Unknown Speaker 25:26

Yeah, international public health, which is extremely relevant at this point in time.

Dan Ilic 25:36

I just wanted to get a credit for Kovac 19. Do you get a credit like 20 you know,

Unknown Speaker 25:40

yeah, just like yeah, just everyone gets a high distinction. Well done.

Unknown Speaker 25:44

Like in terms of your like, personal situation. Have you had Have you stopped? had to think about what you're gonna do? Like, do you live with people? Are you

Unknown Speaker 25:53

Yeah, no.

Dan Ilic 25:55

You do to work as

Unknown Speaker 25:56

I moved to Sydney and I settled in a beautiful house and had to Fantastic housemates Hello, Lauren and Maura virus since left, but I did think I didn't think I would be able to work with them and be working with patients and in healthcare, I thought like the risk would be quite high. I have my grandparents so I had to kind of come to terms with the fact that I might not see them this year, because I don't want them to contract the illness that they're the ones who are really high risk. I'm if you know, like a one in one in eight chance of dying, which is really hot. And so yeah, absolutely. I've definitely thought about that I've actually moving from a non clinic from a clinical role to work in public health. So and within that role, I'm not allowed to see patients to the public health role involves tracking and tracing cases, and then trying to prevent those cases from spreading. So do do contact tracing And ensure that anyone who's been in contact with a confirmed case will then self isolate. And then also discussing whether or not the patients who do test positive if they need to be in hospital if they can isolate in the community. And within that role. I'm yeah, it because of the risk for healthcare workers is so high. I've been in, you know, given the, the instruction to not undertake any clinical work, so that I can continue to be within the public health team without contracting the virus because otherwise it kind of at this stone, then they're needing to work together. And if one person gets kovan, it kind of stops that operation.

Dan Ilic 27:41

Wow. It sounds so hard. That sounds so complex and complicated. Can we just give all the people with Cova 19. Like a funny hat or something?

Unknown Speaker 27:51

I yeah, it's a great idea. Maybe we can ask her rhinos to sponsor them.

Unknown Speaker 27:56

Carry a beer. Yeah, carry beer. I think that's the that's the tricky part, isn't it? Because some people have very different symptoms. And that's why we read like, this is why the social distancing is so important. And it's not like it's looking out for others as well as yourself. But you might be asymptomatic. Like you may have mild symptoms you might have like, there's been cases where someone had diarrhoea and that was their symptom. So it's that's why we just don't know who's carrying it. And that's that's the issue. I why social distancing is so important.

Dan Ilic 28:32

I've assumed it I make puns. I think I've got it.

Unknown Speaker 28:37

Thank you so much.

Unknown Speaker 28:41

Yeah, it's socially isolating myself from Louis.

Dan Ilic 28:45

Because we don't need to be doing this over Skype. I just demanded it. But I want to be in the same room dance. I talked to Jasmine, thank you so much for joining us on a rational fee. Do you mind if we check in with you in a couple of months to see how

Unknown Speaker 28:56

Yeah, please do please do. I'll be in close contact. Well not physically close contact. But with my colleagues working, they continue to be on the front line and they're doing an amazing job to support us. Oh, but I'll be working, I guess behind the scenes. So check in contact, if everyone listening if you're thinking about going out, reconsider it. You know, you don't have to stay at home if you can. And it's not just for you. And it's not just for the patients who might contract Cova 19. But it's for everyone. And it's Yeah, it takes a bit of a shift in your thinking, but it's possible.

Dan Ilic 29:29

Thanks, Jasmine. Have you thought about being Prime Minister?

Unknown Speaker 29:32

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker 29:36

hair cut length.

Unknown Speaker 29:39

I haven't cut my hair in six months. So I'm just this is I'm just gonna grow out. I've accepted that's it. my brows are growing out. My hair is growing up to new me.

Unknown Speaker 29:48

A rational fear

Unknown Speaker 29:49

behavioural experts

Unknown Speaker 29:49

are stunned parents and police want answers and three

Dan Ilic 29:53

teenage girls might have ruined their reputations forever in the tradition of fucking aftering across the street. parliament is headed into a five month long recess and won't be back to pass laws until August 11. Five months and in place of the Australian Government, they've created a Corona virus disease commission, consisting of executives from mining, energy transport, finance, the only remotely medical person has to be the head on the commission is David third, who is the csra chair. What is going on here where all the medical experts while the government is on holiday, so I hadn't heard that. That's is it been as like soft revolution? Yeah. What do you mean it's a soft revolution? We are completely run and owned by mining and fossil fuel entities. What are you talking? I was used to it happening from the shadows. I'm not used to them being out in front.

Unknown Speaker 30:47

There's no one else out there other than that, so who else is there apart from that bunch of people?

Dan Ilic 30:53

I like it when a crisis happens in in movies they call the Avengers when a crisis happens in Australia, they assemble people to build open capital. minds.

Unknown Speaker 31:00

Yeah, okay Gina Rinehart here and you know, sort of help out, you know, grab an X, darling. Yeah.

Unknown Speaker 31:06

I don't see why government can't continue online like we're doing here. I mean, if you look at photographs and video footage of the chamber in camera, they're on their bloody phones anyway. They're not listening to each other. They're all on Facebook and Twitter. They're not actually paying attention. Mr. Speaker, Mr. Speaker, Mr. Speaker can tell you on a whim to take his turn his fucking phone off. They're all sitting there like, like people in restaurants like couples on their phones while they're eating. Why can't talk to each other in restaurant. It's the same with bloody parliament. They're all sitting on their phones. So be no difference. Stay at home, still around the country, as ineptly as you do anyway. Just on your fucking phones easy.

Unknown Speaker 31:42

I couldn't agree more. I reckon if we have to put up with shitty zoom meetings because of their NBN failure then they should have to do

Dan Ilic 31:49

coming up very soon. Kirsty way back we'll be here to do a stand up set from her cancel the Melbourne Comedy Festival show. But first, if you think it's a bit of a show Mazel in Australia, in the United States, it is Way, way worse where a fractured medical system and an insufferable celebrity industrial complex is bringing harm upon everybody. I caught up with my friend Brad blanks a little earlier on today to see just how he's faring in New York City a rational fear Well, it's official one place that has it worse than any other country in the world right now is the USA we 50,000 Corona virus cases. So I thought what a good opportunity to catch up with my old mate Brad blanks who lives most of the time in New York City, but has found a little bald hole on Long Island to stay and see out the crisis get bread. Well, Dan, yes, it's a celebration in the United States as an Aussie here and have jumped on the American fanfare and the fact that they always love to be number one is celebrating that they have hit number one on the corona charts I speak. I think I speak for all Americans when I say USA, USA, USA. You've done it. I've got myself In New York City, I'm out and the end of Long Island. And I'm away from the epicentre of the madness that is going on in there. It's a it's a ghost town I was in there. One week ago was a ghost town, man. And now the sadness is that the people are getting double infected every day. Where have you been speaking to people who are still in Manhattan and still in Brooklyn? And what is it like what's the feeling? Yeah, as I said, I was in there we go. Ghost Town. Even though I did walk through Times Square and the one person out in Time Square was the naked cowboy. So the naked cowboy, he's still at work. Why aren't you that's what everyone's asking. Now, let's speak about your work. You're a you know, a third wheel on a radio show. How is that going? Are you still being able to broadcast? Yeah, I had. Last week was the scheduled vacation of our show as this all started kicking off. really convenient. You've got Shannon the legendary DJ, Yeah either I work for like he's a veteran of America Hall of Fame radio. Yeah. They love that term Hall of Fame radio legend. And he went down to Florida and where he lives and I said, Scott, you not, might not make it back. So I did a few callings to the guy. Let's be clear here Hall of Fame is a pseudonym for a very old person with probably dodgy lungs who could probably contract correct. And he was adamant he was going to be back on the radio back in New York City Monday morning, he got the official order to stay down in Florida, Florida. And calling from there now that opens up a whole, you know, is radio people all around the world are trying to figure out how to use these. Well, what are they called complex boxes or tie lines Dan or ISDN. I mean, I'm not an engineering radio pilot, pilot pilots, that sort of stuff. But you would know what I mean. And he had to get that sort of connected to his system and he was up and running on Monday. But what that does is we have a board He's usually as you know, again, Dan is a radio guy is a 22 year old underpaid guy. You know, given the title of producer but they, you know, they've got probably the hardest job in radio, they're gonna run the board deal with madmen, and he's sitting there trying to control the board. And the Scott mentioned calling but what that means is I can't call in Oh, I'm out of a job without technically being out of a job. He's still getting paid. That's the important right? Yes, that's right. Yeah, the paltry sum of being a radio third wheel. But the big news of my job is we think that bought up kid that's 22 years of age he drives like an hour and a half every day into work and out of work. You know, everyone wants to be on radio. It has just come down with the big Corona. Kids.

Shannon, Shannon gonna have to paddle off himself in Florida, doing it out of the study or somewhere. I have a feeling CBS fm one of the biggest stations in America. I think this the programme director will be panelling tomorrow that's the rumour on the street, which is crazy and sorry I've got I had a few bits plan and you know things to send in but those those things are sort of, you know, you'll have the yo days off your gear is primarily doing two things, talking to people on the street and talking to celebrities or red carpets. What are you doing to gain content? Brad, you the source of content has been cut off by coronavirus that really kind of fell I used my children and we kicked off home schooling Yeah. And that's kicked off in Australia and it was a big deal. Yeah, they gave the teachers one week to plan the homeschooling, which was last week. And then Monday was the official launch of the new york Board of Education, Department of Education, homeschooling, and it involved, many apps and many logins. I have three Children from the age of 10 to six and it was login hell and I was savvy enough to figure out how to talk to you now so I can sell you enough to figure out how to log in and that but I swear I had about 37 different logins my wife and I so we've used a lot of that banter for my initial radio but now that by radio jobs probably dried up in the in the in the last 24 hours. Yeah, and it gets back to the whole fact that I don't have anyone to talk to on the street and celebrities now obviously everyone's doing Skype or whatever, but am I able to get yo yo Ricky jerkface over Skype Well, let's figure that out. He must follow you on Twitter by now you and him have such a great rapport surely you can hook that up? Well, maybe Yeah, but celebs want at the end of the day, they've got to plug something not necessarily Ricky bit of a slip So look, I'd like a sort of recessed tight the game of trying to have a laugh with celebrities, but you know We'll see how that goes over the next day. But thank you for underlining the fact. I am absolutely stuffed when it comes. You know, you're someone who moved to America 15 years ago, 20 years ago when I yeah, when I moved to America 20 years ago because America is this like shining light on the hill this beacon of opportunity. And for you your career there has been absolutely astounding, incredible. And, and now, this this particular pandemic, has really shown what America is in that it is it doesn't have the ability to look after its most vulnerable people. Is that does it stress you out living there now? It

Unknown Speaker 38:44

doesn't stress me out because again, I you know how we've all been. We're all in this bubble. So I'm sitting here, I every day I wake up, my family's good. We're good. If I got to get groceries, I'm not gonna be have distance you know, six year dishes. do stupid things. I try to hold my breath and hopefully that works. But then obviously you go into the news and you read this and you understand the the mammoth, you know, disaster that this is, and you are Yes. And you are sad. And when you see nursing homes, you know your mom and dad are moving into elderly care or care facility I should say. And you see nursing homes in New Jersey getting evacuated when three have died of Corona and 27 have Corona. And these are all elderly people being helped by nurses. Yeah, it's worrying. It's distressing. And the big thing is going to be out of New York City or new and as as we kick this off in our jest, that New York is gone to you. America is now number one. And New York City is the hottest spot. The really thing that will make people's heads snap is when something like the Javits centre where New York Comic Con is every year and the moment To show in the boat show and one of this, this amazing Convention Centre on the west side of New York City. It is at the moment getting prepped to be a hospital and when that's when that's filled with beds with sick people in there and ventilators in there that that that again will make people yeah address this or be even more shocked of how real this is because I know there's a lot of non believers still, you know, which is which probably scares me just as much as America not helping the people that that really need it. All right.

Dan Ilic 40:37

God joining us now to share some of her cancelled Melbourne Comedy Festival show is comedian Kirsty Welbeck. She's got a Patreon page and I love the first line of the about section. My name is Kirsty Welbeck, but everyone calls me Christie, please welcome Cassie back.

Unknown Speaker 40:56

Hello, hello. Thank you so much for having me here. I was I was recently talking to a journalist when my tour still existed. And often when we talk to journalists, they ask us similar questions each time. So we usually have a sort of ID locked and loaded of what our answers might be. But on this occasion, she asked me a question that I hadn't been asked before she said to me, when did you first realise that you were funny? And no one had ever asked me that before which in hindsight, it's probably quite hurtful. I didn't really think on my face. And the first thing that popped into my brain was being six years old, in grade one, and it being wet weather at school, and just the entire student population is running wild in the gym. And I remember our principal getting up on stage and just trying to turn it all around and saying, does anyone have a joke that they would like to share with the rest of the school? And I was like, Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Six years of age full of bravado, I was like, Yes, I need to get this out into the public. And the reason that I was so confident about having a joke was it I'd heard this cracker on the radio that morning and I had not understood it. All I knew was that fitzy Stacy and Falco

Unknown Speaker 42:28

like I'm gonna tell the school this great guy. I got up on stage. And I said, How do you make a pool table? laughs you stick your hands down its pockets and tickle its balls. Oh, I see what it means but something to kind of play and that was sister Jude understood the joke. Curious. Me across that stage like the flying man. She was like, get out of here. Get off The gate down, she's screaming at me, she should be down the stairs on the other side of the stage. And what I'm trying to say is like, follow your dreams, right? Because

Unknown Speaker 43:18

I was booed off the stage by

Unknown Speaker 43:30

periods and come back later. And so I'm a 24 year hiatus, and I went out and I came back and nowadays I get to travel around doing stand up. Not now but

Unknown Speaker 43:47

I got to

Unknown Speaker 43:50

go to some pretty cool places like I've been to Brad places all over Australia. Also Cambra. I'm pretty lucky in that regard. Last year, I got to go on a call tour. And I was up in Port hedland. I don't know if anyone's heard of that place, but it's at the top of why there's nothing there. It should just be called port that. We rolled into town, there were five comedians, and we rode into town on this tour one day, and it was super hot. We're all melting. But one of our mates he's from London, and he was particularly in a bad way. And as we got to the motel, he pointed at the beach across the road, and he said, I'm going to go for a swim in that beach. And I said, No, you're not my thing. I'm boiling. And I was like, No, mate, you're in Australia. Don't you don't get into a body of water willy nilly in this country without doing some research. I was like, I'll ask a local if it's safe. And so I went over to the receptionist. And I said to her, there equally, perhaps two specifically, I said, Are there any crocodiles in that beach? She said

Unknown Speaker 45:18

she said there's no crocodiles in there. I said she did not say that.

Unknown Speaker 45:23

What she said is that she has no idea that she wants to be involved in this conversation. And then also that's pretty mean. I don't know the woman maybe this is how she speaks, right? Oh testa

Unknown Speaker 45:37

Do you think tomorrow we could have a late check out and she said no.

Unknown Speaker 45:48

This is actually quite a bleak story. Um, cuz I mean, he was. He was a lovely guy and the great comedian and we're gonna miss him terribly.

Unknown Speaker 46:03

Judy got it wrong.

Unknown Speaker 46:06

I'm just kidding. It was. It was a shock

Unknown Speaker 46:14

on me, but it worked out really well for me, because Judy had inspired me so the next day when I was checking out she said to me Do I was sending money did you have anything from the minibar and

Dan Ilic 46:34

Kirsty will be joining us at a rational fear sometime soon as a proper guest Thank you so much, Kirsty That was great. That's it for irrational fear. Big thanks to Matt Slade and Dylan vane Brad blanks Dr. Jasmine Daniels Kirsty we're back and our fear monger says night refit day gas back Melrose and Louis Alba. Have any of you got things to plug anything? Anyone anything on a plug?

Unknown Speaker 46:53

No, I'm sitting idle in my living room until further notice. So

Unknown Speaker 46:58

my comedy careers can Thought I want to plug Easter Sunday the churches are gonna be

Unknown Speaker 47:06

it's gonna be a great day everybody's gonna be close together singing hemming praying, sneezing, coughing, it'll be true.

Unknown Speaker 47:16

Patreon and cameo in the moment

Dan Ilic 47:19

going off you were saying before you're doing like tonnes of cameos people love you

Unknown Speaker 47:23

loving making videos.

Unknown Speaker 47:27

I'm just gonna be doing that anyway.

Dan Ilic 47:30

Jasmine still with us. Do you have anything to plug Jasmine?

Unknown Speaker 47:32

Some nice quality time alone

Unknown Speaker 47:37

driving because he's Patreon and to irrational.

Unknown Speaker 47:41

Good idea. And Louis, what do you got to plug? I'm just sending PayPal photos of my faithful cash.

Dan Ilic 47:48

Coming up next is news fighters. Until then there's always something to be scared. Oh, good night.

Unknown Speaker 48:03

This is News spiders.

Unknown Speaker 48:06

We find the news so you don't have to. Okay onto the government's big coronavirus economic stimulus package this week and Prime Minister Scott Morrison made sure the first thing he had ready to roll out was a three word slogan to build a bridge to the other side to get them on this bridge there is a bridge over this to get on this bridge and effectively build a bridge yeah build a bridge Scott Morrison's messaging aimed at Nani's teenagers. Oh my god, Australia, just build a bridge and get over it. When you just get over the coronavirus. just build a bridge. You're ready. Oh my god. Of course, one of the biggest elements of the second round of stimulus this week was this for at least six months, the job seeker allowance will double to 1100 dollars a fortnight.

Unknown Speaker 48:44

The job seeker allowance formerly known as news Dodd is being doubled.

Unknown Speaker 48:49

Yes, Scott Morrison doubled New Start and I'll tell you who would absolutely hate seeing Scott Morrison W star and that Scott Morrison from last year the Prime Minister Scott Morrison has emphatically rolled out increasing the rate of new start. What do you think the quiet Australians think about an increase in use that

Unknown Speaker 49:08

I believe the best form welfares job. And I believe that our welfare system should work as much for taxpayers as it does for those who benefit from it. I will not engage in the unfunded empathy of the Labour Party, Mr. Speaker, boy, Scott Morrison show hide Scott Marsan right now. Meanwhile, on the homefront, I mean that literally stay at home front. Scott Morrison has received a lot of flack for his confusing mixed messaging on Tuesday night he said this stay at home unless it's absolutely necessary that you go out but then in the exact same press conference, he said this but it is important for people to go to the shop, it is important to go to the shopping centre, it is important that they get access to these normal services. It's important for them because I needed it's also important for our economy, that it continues to operate and function as much as possible. Okay, wait, what state harm but Kp businesses open? Why? Well, wait, I know see what we're doing is keeping as many businesses as we possibly can open. Okay, why are you keeping non essential businesses open? If you want us all to stay at home, Scott Morrison was challenged about this by journalists on Wednesday and said this Well, you're suggesting I should close down businesses where there's no medical advice that they should. I don't understand why we would cause that harm to a business and all their workers and their livelihoods. For the sake of some sort of message convenience, but you just shut down every gym, pop bar club house inspection and restaurant in the country. What's left? Where are we meant to go? Now? People can still go to Car yards. Yeah, come on, kids. Let's do what the Prime Minister says and go hang out down at the car yard. Dad. We hung out at the car yard yesterday. Shut up, son. If the Prime Minister says we can go hang out at the car yard. We're gonna go hang out at the car yard.

Unknown Speaker 50:53

Okay, that's news fighters on irrational fear. Thanks again for having us, Dan. He had a full episode of news fighters subscribe to news fighters on Your podcasting app or go to news fighters.com remember what she hands remain indoors and bye for now.

Unknown Speaker 51:07

This is News fighters where we find the news. So you don't have to

MAILING LIST: www.arationalfear.com

The pod must go on — from our separate homes we keep cup and carry on — on the show this week we bring you the best and brightest brains on COVID19 including Eureka Prize winner Dr. Darren Saunders, comedian Rosie Piper, Dj Dylabolical, hosts Dan Ilic and Lewis Hobba and comedian Bec Melrose drops in to do 5min from her cancelled Melbourne Comedy Festival Show.

(00:00) Preamble.

(01:40) Start.

(02:50) Introductions.

(04:27) Sponsor: Visit the 90's.

(06:22) The 3rd week of Coronarama.

(12:28) Dr. Darren Saunders gives some COVID19 answers.

(26:40) Alan Jones on the Coronavirus

(29:10) Bec Melrose does 5min of her cancelled MICF show.

(35:50) Wrap up

(36:47) News Fighters

Dan Ilic 0:00

Well, before we start, the building committee festival has been cancelled. Lewis actually predicted this the day before they actually cancelled it on our last week's show. I've actually got a clip of you Lewis predicting this. Here it is. Now before we start letting people know that our Melbourne Comedy Festival show Tickets are on sale at this stage. The Melbourne Comedy Festival is still going. Yeah, I mean, what is it? It's currently Thursday evening, I would say we have 12 hours left for you to purchase tickets, feel good about them and then feel the need to return them when the coroner predicted predicted Louis hell but what do you think about that? I mean, obviously, I'm a genius. I see everything. It's palpable tonight. It's Thursday again $60 million. It's gonna be number 37. Touch all your money. I'm 37. Now if you if you get a refund, I should let you know. become one of our subscribers on Patreon. For as little as five bucks a month you can support a rational fear to bring you podcasts and videos. This week. We actually double Our Patreon subscriber limit term to 11. And a big shout out to someone named Margot haba. Who is now donating any relation Louis maga haba hey, yeah, that's my

Lewis Hobba 1:14

mom shout for mom. She's been financially

Dan Ilic 1:18

helping me out since day job. So it's still good to know that she hasn't laid off Thank you, mom. And also, for every patient subscriber who wins will expected like 50% of that to go to restaurant fears pitcher Patreon. Thank you very much, Louis. It's very generous of you. irrational fears are coated on gadigal Land of urination. I pay my respects to elder's past, present and emerging. Let's start the show.

Unknown Speaker 1:42

A rational fear contains naughty words like bricks, camera,

Unknown Speaker 1:48

and gum and section 40 of a rational

Unknown Speaker 1:51

fear recommended listening

Unknown Speaker 1:53

by a mature audience.

Dan Ilic 1:54

Today on irrational fear cuantas is reportedly seeking a government bailout when asked What they did with their recent $5 billion profit, a spokesman suggested it was stuck on the back of the cuantas lounge. The NFL is seeking a bailout from the government claiming that Australia won't be Australia without Rugby League, which is news to people in Western Australia, South Australia Victoria Northern Territory in Tasmania who all said who is rugby lake. Tasmania has shut its border to mainland Australia. On top of a 14 day quarantine people will be deported from the island if they don't test positive to being a close cousin. There's plenty of toilet paper for everyone. This is irrational.

Unknown Speaker 2:38

irrational.

Dan Ilic 2:50

Welcome to irrational fear. Now let's meet our fear mongers tonight billed as one of Australia's premier transgender lesbian Canadians maybe it's rise pifo Hello Hello, in 2019 he was the winner of Australia's most prestigious science prize in 2020. He's shutting down his lab because as it turns out, being good at important work is not valued in Australia. It's Dr. Darren Saunders. Good, I will look I'm fine. And as someone who is pretty good for the apocalypse and as someone who has to live with the uncertainty every day in the cutthroat, chaotic world of US public broadcasting, it's Lewis. Hello. Hello, Dan. Yes, a joy to be here. Not broadcasting. I can't hear anything. It's actually can I say, my my Cynthia virus here and everyone's been working from home. This current setup of a million people speaking from different places, has become the norm. And I feel like I'm just back in high school watching my substitute teacher struggle with the DVD player again. And on the pots and pans, it's DJ diabolical

Unknown Speaker 3:59

now Now I've always stood up the back end being the silent DJ and the whole by Paul Shaffer and I took a global pandemic to get me on the mic. You will probably regret it. Thank you, Dan.

Dan Ilic 4:09

A little later on the show broadcast. Alan Jones shares his view on Corona virus comedian Beck Melrose will be popping by two to five minutes after cancelled Melbourne Comedy Festival show and della balika will deliver us fresh new news fighters. But first, we couldn't do this show without our sponsors. Here's our first sponsor for tonight. Hi,

Unknown Speaker 4:29

I'm unindicted war criminal and foppish former Prime Minister Tony Blair. And I mean, look, these are uncertain times, right? Like 2020 his brothers coronavirus, the climate crisis and married at first sight. And since international travel has been banned, I'm inviting you to take a break and book a journey to somewhere when nothing interesting happens. The 90s I mean, look, you could learn to surf the web with Morgan Freeman.

Unknown Speaker 4:55

Click on Netscape Navigator

Unknown Speaker 4:56

and type in www dot But you thought out the vista.com

Unknown Speaker 5:02

then search for the answer to anything you want. Like why can Kevin Costner do

Unknown Speaker 5:06

an English accent? Or go on a tour of the White House with my good colleague, Bill Clinton. And in this drawer is where I put all the things I want to disappear, lock cigars use tissues and genocide in Rwanda. I've never even heard of that place. Sir. Mr. Epstein's on the phone. Oh,

Unknown Speaker 5:25

excuse me,

Unknown Speaker 5:26

Jeffrey. Hi. Of course, Saturday's great for me. Or you could even visit the set of a television commercial with Donald Trump. I don't even drink vodka. They want me to sell it because I can sell it. Vodka. It's

Unknown Speaker 5:42

fantastic. Believe me, but Oh, hang on a second. Hello. Hello Jeffrey. Jeffrey Epstein. My friend is a billionaire just like me. It's what we have in common. Saturday. I'll be there of course.

Unknown Speaker 5:57

So look, book a ticket to of the 90s when the war on terror was just sparkle in my eye. What has it hasn't finished yet? This month? Oh, good, who? Actually Don't tell me I'll watch it on DVR. So pimp your right to the 90s. Right? a time where if you wanted to enjoy an apocalypse, you have to go to the cinema. How about good deeds?

Unknown Speaker 6:22

Thank you.

Dan Ilic 6:23

This is irrational fear we're into the third week of coronavirus on last week on inside is paid event ensel and tweeted that when tweeted when the CMO into the studio he offered to shake everyone's hand. Later that afternoon the Prime Minister suggested that everyone stop shaking hands which gave us a huge release to everyone who is forced to meet the prime minister and Kobe did a monologue this week from his bath. The NBC today show as Al Roker the weatherman did the weather from his kitchen TV shows are doing shows with that audiences which is nothing new. We did we did it tonight lay all the time the difference is popular shows are seeing their audiences to stay at home and people in the middle Panic buying weed. So my friends, how is the apocalypse treating you so far?

Unknown Speaker 7:05

I think

Unknown Speaker 7:07

people would probably expect it to be worse than it is. Right. But I've been doing some thinking. Because a lot of people think that like comedy is in like a bit of crisis at the moment, right? Like the comedy festivals being cancelled and everything. And that's obviously, you know, a bad thing. But I think like, it's actually going to, sort of, in at least when like, everything kind of blows over in the end, it's actually going to set the comedy community out quite well. And I like I've been talking to a lot of comedians and whatnot. I've just got like a sort of like a list of things he that I'd like love to go through. Sort of like, tell everyone, what, what sort of good, good stuff we've got to look forward to right. So like, at least while we're all like self isolating, socially distancing and whatnot right now. There's a Everybody is being pushed to like the podcasting world, right?

Dan Ilic 8:04

Unfortunately, yeah, this is how we do it. We were unfortunately having to make a podcast over Google Hangouts. It's very shoddy.

Unknown Speaker 8:11

Yeah. Well, I think there's gonna be a lot more of that right and like obviously like, that's a great thing because all we want is a lot more straight white men telling us which movies we need to watch right? So I've talked to like a few people who have got some like podcasts in the in the works and I just want to go through some of them right now. So I've heard there's there's one coming up was called Mighty Morphin Power recap, right? Which is a it's two middle aged white men just sort of watching Mighty Morphin Power Rangers episode by episode and going through that and I can only imagine that that is going to be some truly interesting content. Another one that is come through my my friends podcast, you should go to the fuck are you looking at again, middle aged males Come on there and discuss all the best fights that they've gotten into over their, over their lifetime. So that's a pretty good one is there's also one called, we'll just tell you a mother, we ate it all, which is essentially it's two white males and a trans woman who watched sort of that American Pie style teen sex comedies every week and discuss those and I know you're thinking that doesn't sound like it has any legs at all. It couldn't even have 100 episodes. It didn't celebrate that today. Please listen, please listen.

Dan Ilic 9:30

Is this is this your podcast? Right?

Unknown Speaker 9:33

Oh, no, it's certainly not mine. No, I don't know he's talking about I don't have any involvement in that podcast at all. Please listen. We really need it. Please listen,

Unknown Speaker 9:41

this there's certainly going to be a lot of time for binge watching. So I see those podcasts going well, I'm just not sure about the restaurant review and travel podcasts how they're gonna car living,

Unknown Speaker 9:51

may not suddenly gonna suffer. Yeah.

Unknown Speaker 9:56

I think what it's gonna come down to is a lot of kind of reminiscing style. ones another one that I've heard of, sort of in the vein of in the vein of guys we fuck these chicks we've routed so I'm sure there'll be quite a lot of tasteful material covered in in that podcast yeah or

Unknown Speaker 10:12

remember what toilet paper was or what was food

Unknown Speaker 10:17

Yeah, that was that was actually quite a good thing I haven't posted I wait I wait I might move out today and left behind or who gives a crap toilet paper so we are set

Dan Ilic 10:26

oh my god that is my leaving behind gold.

Unknown Speaker 10:29

Yeah, I was surprised except

Dan Ilic 10:31

you can watch your mom with it.

Unknown Speaker 10:34

You can watch it on with gold if you try hard enough.

Unknown Speaker 10:36

Yeah, probably get to that point.

Dan Ilic 10:38

I think it's a it's a rough endorsement if someone facing a period of potential quarantine with housemates is moving out right now. Like I don't want to spend two weeks with you specifically. Thanks not even two weeks. It's like It's like people would really have to be bunkering down for if month so I pick people that are saying the next five months are going to be awful in this house if I don't move. It's gonna be a real test, particularly if you live in a share house. I think a lot of people are talking about the the rate of babies going up in nine months after this, but I think people are gonna start talking about the rate of divorces going out.

Unknown Speaker 11:20

Statistically divorces have gone up in China because of the all the all the isolation. Well, really well. Yeah. Yeah. No, it's it's already in this in the stats.

Unknown Speaker 11:30

Yeah, that's the biggest problem actually. Yeah. Well, Darren, what's your

Unknown Speaker 11:34

best shot his biggest problem?

Dan Ilic 11:36

Darren, what are you saying? What are you predicting will happen in five months time?

Unknown Speaker 11:40

Ah, look, I think I just want to point out that I think I was way ahead of the curve. I'm shutting down my lab because unless you're building covert test kits or vaccines, everyone's shutting down their lab. So that turned out to be quite prescient, actually. I'm just yeah, I'm, it's where are we gonna be in five months time? Well, I think the world's gonna look really different. I hate to be really heavy about that, but I think actually, you know, to put a positive slant on it, I reckon we're gonna come out the other side of much better society and a much better community. I think we're getting a really good reminder of what's actually important in life. And I think that's a good that's a good thing to hang on to. As we go into as we go into pastor it's definitely a good thing to hang on to. I've been eating I've been eating types of pasta and rice I never even knew existed this week.

Unknown Speaker 12:23

First time in about five years.

Dan Ilic 12:27

Darren, it's great to have you on the podcast because we're not experts at all. But you know, you are an expert. You are a doctor now a professor. So can you tell us I'm sure people were turning to you for all kinds of scientific advice because your head is often on the television. Often your voices often on the radio as a as a communicator of science. What are the kinds of questions I thought maybe I could ask you to collect a bunch of questions that people have been asking you and maybe you could quiz us tonight on the answers and so we'll we'll try and provide With the answers, and then you can tell us whether we're right or wrong.

Dr. Darren Saunder 13:02

Oh, this is perfect. I've got more questions than I can answer so I can feed these back to people this will be excellent. I reckon the good ones will lead off with is what? What's the effect of what bushfire smoke we all breathe in for months and months and months on what's going to happen? We've covered infection.

Dan Ilic 13:20

Your lungs will taste like smoked salmon.

Unknown Speaker 13:26

Fewer koalas are alive to die.

Unknown Speaker 13:30

That's a positive shadow that koalas can get covered up? That's a good question.

Unknown Speaker 13:33

Let's find out why I gave I gave them chlamydia.

Rose Piper 13:39

I think in effect it will have is because we were all told that we were breathing, whatever it was, like 37 dots a day or something like that. But now the economic downturn is probably going to cause some people to stop smoking. So it was like kind of getting your fixing before you before you quit, you know?

Unknown Speaker 13:57

Yeah, yeah, it's not not a bad way to look at it.

Dan Ilic 14:00

actually did buy a facemask during the bush fires that turned out to be quite handy in the long run

Unknown Speaker 14:06

ahead of the curve again,

Unknown Speaker 14:07

yeah, you're like Nostradamus

Dan Ilic 14:13

Listen to me more. But what what do you think Dan? What do you think the the ramifications of breathing in that bushfires mega?

Unknown Speaker 14:21

The actual answer is we probably don't know the guests or the hypothesis would be that we're probably a little bit more susceptible to infection all that smoke has been damaging our lungs the whole time we bring breathing it in and it's probably making us a little bit more susceptible to the infection as for having fictional play out in people had to say so it's not a good news story. That one.

Dan Ilic 14:41

There was such a weird point in kind of time where the smoke you couldn't really avoid it anywhere like you like with the corona virus. I feel like you can probably do if you don't have it, you can probably do your best to not have it for a long time. But the smoke was just so unavoidable because you couldn't really escape to any place that didn't have it.

Unknown Speaker 15:01

Yeah at one point I was sharing it the water tank where I was staying actually got permeated with smoke. It was like sharing scotch. It was not pleasant.

Unknown Speaker 15:10

Yeah, it sounds pretty good. It's not you

Dan Ilic 15:14

could you could you could sell that at a Gwyneth Paltrow resort. Out showering genuine Australian bush is a $300 so I'm just gonna make a note of that. That's actually pretty good. What's your next question? Derek? All right, next question was

Unknown Speaker 15:32

what is going to happen to everyone that's swimming and can we swimming pools? Can we swim in the ocean and avoid covert

Dan Ilic 15:39

thought calls? Were a no no rush think the ocean should be fine, right?

Unknown Speaker 15:43

I hope the ocean is fine.

Dan Ilic 15:45

That's my thought to my thought is that the ocean is antibacterial. Every

Unknown Speaker 15:53

interesting one isn't the ocean. Nobody knows the ocean. The sunlight kills a lot of germs. But if probably want to kill the viruses. But

Dan Ilic 16:03

before you go on are the answers to all your question is nobody knows. There's a lot of

Unknown Speaker 16:11

things that we're all getting it right.

Dan Ilic 16:13

It's good. All right, great. What's the next question?

Unknown Speaker 16:17

When are we gonna have a vaccine?

Dan Ilic 16:20

I got this one. I got this one. I got this one. Nobody knows.

Unknown Speaker 16:25

Louis, what do you think?

Unknown Speaker 16:26

I would have said, Yeah, nobody knows. Dan is one of the few things we do we actually don't know.

Unknown Speaker 16:34

I'm gonna I'm gonna get confident and

Unknown Speaker 16:36

get on the front foot and say within a month.

Unknown Speaker 16:38

Damn. Oh, that's a big goal. Wow.

Unknown Speaker 16:42

I was actually hoping that Louis would say that because then it would happen. Oh, that's not

Unknown Speaker 16:49

to say that I'm afraid.

Unknown Speaker 16:53

So this one I picked deliberately because I can't actually answer this one. This is ah,

Unknown Speaker 16:58

so I don't know if you saw Yes, I think it was yes. Today

Unknown Speaker 17:00

the very first human guinea pigs patients got the first test doses of one of the new vaccines. So

Unknown Speaker 17:07

where were they? Where can we get it from?

Unknown Speaker 17:10

Woollies? I think I think Trump's bought it already. Probably. That's what

Unknown Speaker 17:13

he tried to he tried to buy one of the German companies.

Dan Ilic 17:16

So where were they doing where who got

Unknown Speaker 17:18

the first vaccine? Why don't we find out? I believe they were in Europe. I could be wrong. I don't remember precisely. We've got a we got a vaccine in development in Australia that's been in animals now. So it's almost ready to test in humans. And then the trick is making enough for hundreds of millions of people that that will take a few months at least.

Dan Ilic 17:36

Right. Is that when you're gonna start your lab again, that's the that's the plan.

Unknown Speaker 17:40

We're just gearing up for that. Now.

Dan Ilic 17:42

Do you have another question for us about 19? just mash misconceptions.

Unknown Speaker 17:46

Oh, look, here's the one. Here's the question of the day or the question of the week is, why haven't they shot schools yet?

Unknown Speaker 17:53

Why haven't they shot the schools yet? That's the one that's on everyone's lips around here. Why haven't they shot the schools yet?

Dan Ilic 17:58

Because people need To know about white history and forget about colonialism. That's why schools Yeah, this time, the white man fixes everything. That is why they haven't shut the schools yet.

Unknown Speaker 18:09

There's probably too many decision makers in there who've just had the kids get to school age who have gone I'm not fucking taking them back in the house now. I feel

Unknown Speaker 18:18

like

Dan Ilic 18:20

it is consistent with like this government's long term war against teachers, namely that it's hoping that instead of having to underpaid them, though, they can just get what?

Unknown Speaker 18:42

destination crook?

Unknown Speaker 18:44

Yeah. It's funny. Remembering the value of all of these kind of jobs like nurses and teachers, right.

Dan Ilic 18:50

What is what is it Darren, I mean, you're someone who's seen the brunt of this kind of attitude from our government that there seems to be a dislike or distrust of expertise of really smart people who know things. Why is it that this government does have all got this government? Not in this not it's not particularly this government coming through all around the world? Yeah, have a have a distaste and a distrust of people with expertise and doing everything they can to seemingly defund them and get rid of them. I think

Unknown Speaker 19:22

the brutal truth of that is because they delivered some uncomfortable facts and truth to them that didn't suit their sort of political ends. And so they undermine them as much as they could, you know, people have been profiteering politically and financially for years of undermining facts and truth.

Dan Ilic 19:38

But getting rid of like that getting rid of like the pandemic unit for the CDC in America seems like a completely counterintuitive act,

Unknown Speaker 19:48

given that we're just they're just sitting around doing nothing. It's just

Dan Ilic 19:52

wasting money, and then we can get them back. We want them we know where they are. We can get them back whenever we want.

Unknown Speaker 20:00

No like firemen, they just sit around all day doing nothing get rid of them.

Unknown Speaker 20:03

Most medicine?

Dan Ilic 20:05

Do you honestly think Darren that that is like that is the motive like it's it is purely, you're you're delivering information that is too dangerous for us politically to even have.

Unknown Speaker 20:14

But I think well, you're probably I mean, if you look at the climate change, the climate change is an obvious one, you know, that's where it seems to be the lightning rod for this sort of approach of denying truth, or whatever you want to call it. And it was literally that there were some really rich people and big companies that were, you know, their profits are under threat, and they've spent a lot of money trying to prop up those profits by sitting down, you know, we saw the tobacco companies do it before them and then and then what's happened is the political parties have all figured out that that's a really good way of getting hold of power is to is to take that approach, you know, and I think that that's fine when the threat is just as existential as the as the coronavirus, but it's, you know, 20 or 40 years down the road and suddenly that model doesn't work when the threat is very real and very now, huh?

Dan Ilic 20:56

Well, here are some good things about Kovac 19. There has been a huge reduction in co2 emissions up to 10%. In some countries, because of the ban on cruise ships, the Venice canals have become extremely clear and you can see to the bottom bottom of them without pollution and sediment. And another good thing about the Cova 19 is that your revision has been cancelled for this year. So no Eurovision what are the good things have we seen out there because it covered 19 do you think

Unknown Speaker 21:25

a lot of videos of penguins loose in zoos looking at the fish for them all sounds pretty good.

Unknown Speaker 21:32

I think my favourite good news story was the directive from ISIS that came out through the way

Unknown Speaker 21:41

ISIS put out a press release banning the

Unknown Speaker 21:47

suicide bombers from going to Europe because obviously, you know, Venice, probably beautiful but you know, even all h&s sit up today. They've ended it. If terrorists you go into Europe

Unknown Speaker 22:03

you don't want to you know, blow off a building while you're feeling a bit snotty in the nose there

Unknown Speaker 22:10

is a one way ticket surely I don't quite know what they're saying.

Unknown Speaker 22:16

And then I believe the the mayor of Baltimore has ordered everyone to stop shooting each other so they can. So they can create rooms for in the hospitals for covered victims. So I think they'll be a massive downturn in street violence until we run out of toilet paper and then there'll be a massive upturn in street violence.

Dan Ilic 22:37

Well, Arnold Schwarzenegger has been making great content from his home he's been advocating for social distancing you may have seen earlier in the week him feeding his ponies inside his home. Here is one of him sitting in a sitting in a in a hot tub, smoking a cigar giving some very good advice.

Unknown Speaker 22:55

I just finished a bike ride and a little bit of workout and I just didn't keep staying at home all the way from the crowd and away from outside. The reason why I'm saying that is because I still see photographs and videos of people sitting outside compares all over the world and having a good time and hanging out in crowds. That is not wise, because that's how you can get the virus. That's how you get it, like contact with other people. So stay away from crowds stay away from being in restaurants and outdoor cafes, especially now it's springtime, all the kids are going to the beach and celebrate and drink and all that stuff. This is not a good idea to stay away from the crowd, go home, and then we can overcome this whole problem. This whole virus in no time, but you got to go and follow those orders. Just remember, stay at home. Don't go go to crowds, but they took it down.

Dan Ilic 23:55

Think he's been incredibly responsible. He is the most responsible vendor out there. I've been trying to tell my mom to stay away from her church and stop going to the shops. But she just ignores me She completely says she says, you young people are too worried we're at church and we're not coughing over each other. The upside of that is I can say my inheritance will be coming a little bit earlier than I expected, but it's silver linings, a silver lining, how do we convince how do we convince our parents that they should be staying home kalon that there's a property that they can buy inside their already existing property?

Unknown Speaker 24:33

negatively?

Unknown Speaker 24:38

Many negatively,

Unknown Speaker 24:41

that it just sort of folds in on itself, and then they'll never leave. They'll always be searching for that next property that we can't have

Unknown Speaker 24:49

a good excuse for them to be more xenophobic, because then they can blame someone for them. Having to be

Dan Ilic 24:57

I hate to tell this story, but my mom, you very quietly xenophobic. whenever she's telling anecdotes she will dip her voice whenever she has to name the race of the person in the anecdote so she'll be like, and then at the shops I saw, man and he just went. Well, that's nice Alicia, Alicia blunting is xenophobia.

Unknown Speaker 25:18

My mom went from complete and utter coronavirus denial to full blown prepper in 24 hours. So I had a quiet word to use.

Unknown Speaker 25:26

What was the turning point? Because I'm curious. Yeah. Cuz a lot of Berman's like everything's fine. And then they turn what was the feed for them?

Unknown Speaker 25:32

I pointed out she was letting me down. You know, I was going on TV and radio and telling everybody all this stuff. And she was basically making me look like a fool for ignoring me. And, you know, no mom wants to embarrass this unlike that. I was talking to a girl and she's gone from, you know, you need to teach the kids how to grow their own food they need to know how to so she went right back to full on 1930s self sustaining skills. Can she talk to my mom, we can swap numbers.

Unknown Speaker 25:57

I think the main thing the responsibility for all of us to do Is share our netflix possible with our parents.

Unknown Speaker 26:05

My mom the shares with me.

Dan Ilic 26:10

I'm just trying to do as many irrational fear podcasts as we can because I know as a passionate subscriber, we make a lot of money. We'll just keep listening and you'll never be able to leave the house. Thank you, Margot harbour. Thank you very much. A little later on comedian back Melrose will join us to do a type five from her cancelled Melbourne Comedy Festival shot. But I don't know if you heard this. Earlier this week. Alan Jones compared the corona virus to climate change claiming it was a high experimentally yesterday and clarified a few things. Good morning everyone. A lot of people have suggested to me that I'm not taking Corona virus seriously enough by comparing it to the hopes of climate change. Oh, God. Well, let me tell you Cova 19 as they're calling it, that some sort of scientist or something Ah God, nerds. kovat 19 is a hoax much like carbon dioxide. I haven't seen it with my own eyes so it doesn't exist. And my eyesight is very good, like posted on the door on the other side of my Southern Highlands studio where I'm broadcasting from for the next six months for no reason in particular, I could read a sign that says warning stay 1.5 metres away from this door. Nothing to do with coronavirus I've just got to keep the home studio sounding crystal clear. Don't want some sort of goose coming in here squawking at me, and I'm not talking about any easy God. Now my good friend Scott Morrison has just told me you must stop panic buying it's clearly an Australian Well let me tell you something. He got something wrong there. The only thing you should be panic buying is my new album, Alan Jones's songs for a life of isolation. Got me Alan Jones singing all of your favourites like oh bye bye

Unknown Speaker 28:00

Don't want to pay Oh

Unknown Speaker 28:07

give us a call the open line

Unknown Speaker 28:10

wonderful. Don't forget that classic don't don't

Unknown Speaker 28:16

don't sketch show close to me. And how about a cheeky Jewett? You give me feed

Unknown Speaker 28:25

when you kiss me fever when you hold me tight

Unknown Speaker 28:32

in the morning fever all throughout

Unknown Speaker 28:35

the night taken away Anthony Kalia

Dan Ilic 28:38

god what a voice wait till you hear him sing our water voice. We had to do it on Skype but still you get the idea so don't believe what you read. There is no Corona virus. If you can't see it, it doesn't exist a bit like the Bledisloe Cup. I've never seen it so we've never lost it. All ballad joads Alan Jones there.

Unknown Speaker 28:58

That's right. I haven't I haven't been travelling work for a few weeks but I feel like I just had a nice taxi ride to the airport. That was fantastic.

Dan Ilic 29:04

irrational fear and I haven't touched my face in weeks and weeks since the Melbourne International Comedy Festival has been cancelled I thought wouldn't be great to get some of our comedy Friends of the show to come and do their best tight five from the cancel shows that they can't perform in Melbourne and coronavirus is really knocked that right out of the park. Now we have to do it on Google Hangouts, but we're going to try it anyway. I thought we'd get back Melrose to give it a go since she's gonna be on the show on irrational fear next week, I thought what better way to get her to come on the show but do a bit of a warm up by doing her best High Five from her cats of Melbourne, Melbourne Comedy Festival show. So ladies and gentlemen without any further ado back Mel rose.

Unknown Speaker 29:51

Hello are legends. How are we doing?

Dan Ilic 29:53

Yeah, well.

Unknown Speaker 29:55

Good, good.

Unknown Speaker 29:57

Nice crowd work.

Unknown Speaker 30:01

What I do for a living?

Unknown Speaker 30:03

I thought I do. I'm the top five of my office gear because some I thought I wrote that thinking it'd be evergreen and I'd be able to use it forever, but we don't have offices anymore. So I might as well give it a run.

Unknown Speaker 30:17

Please come straight from work. Give us a word. Yeah,

Unknown Speaker 30:23

that's all right. Don't worry.

Unknown Speaker 30:25

What's blocked isn't it? I've just started working in an office so my zest for life is draining faster than the Murray Darling I can assure you No one's talking to one another like human beings in the office. There's all this jargon and buzzwords and shit that get in the white. My favourite one they use it my work is as per my last email. Have we heard this?

Unknown Speaker 30:49

A power move. As per my last email. It's the closest you can get to saying Fuck off. You grow up at work, isn't it?

Unknown Speaker 31:00

As per my last name I haven't got the confidence to use as per my last name I like 50 Bernie brown TED Talks short of the conference it takes to use as per my last email but there's so much of this bizarre language at work I kept hearing my boss say well why don't you give that project to back she's got capacity but once we got one over the back she's got capacity pass that over the back she's got capacity

Unknown Speaker 31:25

to fucking Tupperware container

Unknown Speaker 31:28

absolutely ridiculous. And everyone works worried about AI taking their jobs robots taking our jobs. I'm not that worried yet. I've seen the test online to prove you're not a robot. I reckon it's I can't check a box. So pick out a bridge in a lineup. I don't reckon they'll be coming for our jobs anytime soon. But even when they do, like my job, I don't give a shit. Let's see you try and machine learn your way through the social obstacle course. passive aggressive If kitchen signs we did set in my office had a sign above another sign that said read the sign.

Unknown Speaker 32:11

Never mind a robot that shit would short circuit a robot.

Unknown Speaker 32:16

We are decades away from developing the kind of technology that's going to be able to definitely navigate pretending to give a fuck about nails weekend's No, but we can do the same argument about I don't mean that it's going to save us so much time. So what we're just going to find more bullshit to fill the time with anyway. All the time we saved not having to turn our own butter that bought a training time just dissolved in extra weeks in a single generation. But my boss has been trying to get in a roll up but my work amongst a spate of redundancies and he kept trying to get us to do a sweep for the last races and no one was ever came. And I felt kind of sorry for him. So All right, so I printed out photos of everyone in the office and put us all into a little bowl. You're about to pick someone out.

Unknown Speaker 33:08

Now we just have to wait and see who gets the next redundancy.

Unknown Speaker 33:13

Someone's gone home with a hammer. Someone's kids aren't going to Disneyland this year. But we'll pull it ourselves a glass of yellow and we filed into the boardroom watch the real race unfold. It's a beautiful day for it. The race it stops a nation the crow's nest regional office redundancy cop. Janet from accounts is playing up in the barriers and what do you know what Alan the it lead made it to the start after having every Monday off for the last financial quarter.

Unknown Speaker 33:45

It is a miracle.

Unknown Speaker 33:48

They're all in. The lights are on set.

Unknown Speaker 33:52

Racing in the crow's nest regional office redundancy copy combo from comms is started strong closely followed by as per my last email Do you have five for a quick chat and Kathleen What do you even do? They round the corner and who called the unions coming down the outside buffeted by clearly the intern mansplain Mark has midfield on the rails just behind no before I've had my coffee and that's sort of my job description. Coming down the street is unsolicited neck massage on med KPI and some pre k my sandwich. Just a quick one for years going steady. Peter from risk is yelling, but nobody's listening. Hop ahead to For God's sake. Rob, why do you have the microwave? Oh, we've had a fall. It's clearly the intern. Clearly the interns broken down at the 650 and Neil says millennials just can't hack it in the workplace off the road. Deborah the gender and diversity lady is going strong having a renaissance in relevance off to some dodgy comments were made at the Christmas party. Janet from accounts hasn't wasted energy on a single smile as they had for him and he called the union's out in front of Monday morning small talk common from concert Oh, good birthday song. But he comes accidental reply Oh, accidental reply. Oh, Challenge by Rich Craig left jr in the lunchroom 350 to go in the crow's nest regional office, redundancy kaput, it's over called the union number called the union. Kathleen What do you even do and get fucked at smartcard, but who's this coming down the outside? It's the favourite wrench reparations is the line down the outside. He's not going anywhere. He plays tennis with the chairman. He's utterly useless and he's here to stay at wrench taking out the crow's nest regional office redundancy cop. hoffa had to wake on fire the CEO and a further third between should have stayed in Union I'm useless but the director is my uncle.

Unknown Speaker 35:34

Thanks, guys. Thanks very much. My I lost my job but I did want a hand.

Dan Ilic 35:41

You can't say back Melrose at the Melbourne International Comedy Festival tickets are not on sale now. Well, we're gonna be back weekly with irrational fear since our Comedy Festival show isn't going so please hit us up on Patreon give us a few bucks a month. Also FBI Radio where we normally record this needs your help. So please go to FBI radio.com for slash donate and give them a few bucks particularly if you live in Sydney and you love independent radio and and great music Special thanks to this episode to Rupert de gas Jacob Brown, FBI radio, Darren Saunders Lewis haba, Rose Piper, Dillon, Bain and the wonderful Beck Melrose.

Unknown Speaker 36:25

News guys.

Dan Ilic 36:27

Thanks so much. We'll leave you with the latest news fighters on the coronavirus Dylan Do you want to introduce it?

Unknown Speaker 36:34

Sorry coronavirus I actually did it on the NBA March Madness. No one I haven't haven't.

Unknown Speaker 36:44

What's coronavirus?

Unknown Speaker 36:47

This is new spiders.

Unknown Speaker 36:52

So you don't have to. One of the

Unknown Speaker 36:54

great things about the current age of having internet and social media is being able to watch your favourite celebrity breakdown over the corona virus pandemic in real time. sama handling it better than others he is rapid kadhi Bay who had her to a cancelled

Unknown Speaker 37:09

guess why because Corona Corona virus is this

Unknown Speaker 37:19

Corona virus shake on me like a couple of weeks after she was gonna be a couple of months after she let me know soccer star motherfucking backing up all foods a man clear so a bass can move to motherfucking Antarctica which once again cardi Bay the voice of reason in an age of confusion. Meanwhile, Arnold Schwarzenegger is living his best life hanging out at home with Danny DeVito. Oh, no, wait, sorry. That's a miniature horse.

Unknown Speaker 37:45

Luna loves carrots. Whiskey loves carrots. I just said my little bitter vegan food. Oh, that was yummy. Hmm. I just had a fantastic broker that the house amount, Jim.

Unknown Speaker 37:58

Yeah, I am at home. Take Michiko Both hills stoeger

Unknown Speaker 38:05

finished a bike ride and a little bit of workout and I just you know keep staying at home.

Unknown Speaker 38:10

Yes Do like on a stay at home, but maybe don't smoke a cigar I think we might need your lungs to be as healthy as possible. Meanwhile, Michael Stipe from REM isn't coping too well. It's the end of the world as we know it. And I feel stop trying to help Michael Stipe And don't you dare pivot to that shiny happy people bullshit either. We need you to stay calm in this time of crisis. Now a lot of musicians are getting in on holding online quarantine concepts, including Chris Martin of Coldplay whose music is like coronavirus for your ears.

Unknown Speaker 38:49

They were Oh

Unknown Speaker 38:52

look, I'm not trying to say that keyboard sounded bad but geez I think the audio is better on Keyboard Cat Just when things couldn't look any worse, Willie Nelson son Lucas hates us about the years with the biggest cliche he could reach for.

Unknown Speaker 39:22

Now look, if any government out there is listening Scott Morrison Trump bars Angela Merkel, the UN who I don't care, please Institute an immediate indefinite ban on performances of hallelujah. This is actually a policy I've been pushing for years long before Corona virus but this is the time we can make it happen. Meanwhile, Aussies returning home from overseas are going to be facing two weeks of self isolation. And most of them seem to be handling it pretty well. Yeah, just gonna lock myself in and just have some kinds for kotlin eyes.

Unknown Speaker 39:53

You're gonna spend the next two weeks again thanks

Unknown Speaker 40:04

Okay, that's news five is an irrational fear to listen to the full episode, subscribe to news fighters on your podcasting app or check us out at news fighters calm. I'm Dylan Bane. Keep washing your hands and bye for now.

Unknown Speaker 40:16

This is News spiders where we find the news. So you don't have to

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

☕ Chip in with our Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/ARationalFear

📧Subscribe to the email: http://www.arationalfear.com/

Fearmongers this week are Chris Taylor, Bridie Connell and Professor Hilary Bambrick from the the QUT school of public health and social work. We also have special guests Harry Mountbatten-Windsor and Bernie Sanders as voiced by the insanely talented Rupert Degas.

00:00 House keeping.

01:40 Start

03:00 Guest Intro

04:45 Prince Harry Sketch

05:50 Coronavirus talk

19:30 Professor Hilary Bambrick on COVID19

29:27 National Bushfire Recovery Fund

33:00 Senator Bernie Sanders

34:55 Credits

THANKS TO:

Jacob Round, Rupert Degas, and FBi Radio

TRANSCRIPT BY OTTER.AI:

Dan Ilic 0:00

Now before we start letting people know that our Melbourne Comedy Festival show Tickets are on sale on this stage, the Melbourne Comedy Festival is still going. Yeah, I mean, what day is it? It's currently Thursday evening, I would say we have about 12 hours left for you to purchase tickets, feel good about them and then feel the need to return them when the corona quit hit. So please go and buy Melbourne Comedy Festival tickets. I think we're about halfway sold. It's really great. We're going to have a great show. We've got the ARIA award winning bridey and white from tonight, Lee. We've got the Walkley award winning Patricia Cabela's we've got the Walkley award losing James Colley the multiple award winner Alice Fraser DJ Tila and Bain will be there and also Louis and I we've been nominated for many things like you've been nominated for most hygienic man, that's

Unknown Speaker 0:40

true. Um, I lost to

Lewis Hobba 0:44

God I got myself into a pickle here. Who's a really hydrating person. Mr. Shea There we go.

Unknown Speaker 0:53

I was thinking of something completely different. Oh my god. All sudden you sit down with a real surprise. Anyway, the show we better than that.

Unknown Speaker 0:59

You We also have a Patreon which we launched last week. So go to patreon.com forward slash irrational feet and give us some spare change like three bucks a month, Louis and I've been doing a restaurant fee for about eight years. And we decided this year we're gonna go pro.

Unknown Speaker 1:13

I want to get rich.

Unknown Speaker 1:14

And a big thank you to the following people who are giving us 11 bucks a month in total Julia Polito, Patti McIntosh, Susan Cobra and team Hughes for being our very first Patreon subscribers that $11 is going to very good use. This episode of rational fear is made on gadigal land in the eora nation we pay our respects to elder's past, present and emerging sovereignty was never seated. Let's start the show.

Unknown Speaker 1:39

A rational fear contains naughty words like bricks can rub and gum and section 40 of a rational fear recommended listening by emerge your audience.

Unknown Speaker 1:52

Today on irrational fear in what appears to be not a marketing stunt for a Capitol Avenue nightclub. Tom Hanks has come down with coronavirus on the Gold Coast. He is undergoing social distancing with his volleyball wife Wilson. Sorry, Rita Wilson. I didn't realise that pole had a first name anyway. Okay. And Scott camp says that earning $350,000 from the government for doing one appearance and full social media posts is his business. And a pretty good one Minister for employment. Kelly cash says that the government wanted Scott cam because he's just a typical tradie over quotes and under delivers, and in the wake of Corona virus related economic meltdown. The federal government has mercifully killed a surplus that never existed and is implementing a $17 billion stimulus package, including cash payments of $750. to people who can prove that they voted for the coalition. Stop picking your nose and touching your face. This is irrational fear.

Unknown Speaker 2:59

All right, welcome. irrational fear. Joining us tonight our fear mongers include a writer performer, a bon vivant it is Chris Taylor.

Chris Taylor 3:07

I'm thinking my bond move on days are numbered. Are you allowed to go to bars anymore? Or is it all button?

Unknown Speaker 3:14

She is an area award winning Saturday standard rock on her. It is a variety inconel

Unknown Speaker 3:21

This is the most highbrow

Unknown Speaker 3:22

sounding professional fee. Don't worry, we will ruin

Unknown Speaker 3:25

the illusion very shortly

Unknown Speaker 3:26

and he's a hand sanitizer connoisseur it is Louis Silva.

Unknown Speaker 3:31

Please double check this episode's recording Damn. Yeah, I'm pretty sure what are the main to bring it up. But it's not the first time it's happened. And by even just last week, we were here and the show that we recorded was probably the felt like there was no environments where I got a weird hygienic setup that I couldn't finish with a punch line. I was really knocking them down last

Unknown Speaker 3:50

night. It was the tightest irrational fear I've ever heard. I think what's held the show back is that Dan has recorded them in the past. When it's just silence I find there's a slickness. is a Pisces and energy to them that's probably worth replicating on more than one occasion.

Unknown Speaker 4:04

Well, I would love to thank you both for being here and as a special gift here is a raw

Unknown Speaker 4:07

three

Unknown Speaker 4:08

ply toilet paper.

Unknown Speaker 4:12

That's just showing off.

Unknown Speaker 4:14

You can have a roll Ah, take that home or give it to a loved one. Okay, a little later on in the show. Tonight we'll be discussing this week's disappointing Democratic primary with presidential nominee senator Bernie Sanders. So stick around for that. We also asked questions, the big questions, in fact, like what happened to that national bushfire recovery fund? And we wade into the petri dish that is the coronavirus with what I should say is an interview with an actual epidemiologist who is the Head of School of Public Health and Social Work at Qt but first we have a sponsor for today's show. Someone who's done a bit of social distancing themselves.

Unknown Speaker 4:49

Greetings former subjects Harry here formerly known as Prince now of course, Harry Mountbatten Windsor. Gosh, that's a mouthful. I don't know how the normies do it. Anyway, I'm a former distant heir to the throne of the British Kingdom now full time ruler of the at Sussex royal Instagram account and it's my pleasure to offer my family services to you. My wife and I are very good at the following our silver level service includes hours of inane chit chat cutting ribbons, looking at things pointing at things. Or for more premium service, try our gold

Unknown Speaker 5:17

level package

Unknown Speaker 5:18

that's looking at things and pointing at things whilst doing an end chitchat and cutting a ribbon. At this level we can even kiss your baby or for little extra you can kiss us if you like, but please, please don't ask me if I can dress up like a Nazi. That's Platinum level and you probably can't afford that. Well, maybe you can. Either way. Let us know your budget. We're available for hire all year round, all around the world. So slide into our DMS today.

Unknown Speaker 5:43

tonnes of conditions apply baby kissing only available in coronavirus free countries Nazi uniform will be self supplied and will be burned at the end of engagement.

Unknown Speaker 5:49

I love it. Look, I've put my hand up. I've been guilty of this too. But if ever there was an example in comedy of effect, one goes

Unknown Speaker 6:00

He comes from a family who were actual Nazis. And yet Harry, who just had a dress up party wants to do that, fleetingly. We're still how many years old? 20 years old still doing jokes about it. Well,

Unknown Speaker 6:11

you know, I hate to say this in a roomful of comedians, but we've all done it. Sure. I mean,

Unknown Speaker 6:17

we all have something.

Unknown Speaker 6:20

I mean, for me, it was the goat fucking.

Unknown Speaker 6:24

Yeah. Well, ladies, I don't know how you feel about this week. It certainly feels like for the last week, it's been probably like reliving the first five minutes of a disaster movie over and over again. Like you turn on the radio. And it's the end of the world you turn on the TV. It's the end of the world. Of course, we're talking about coronavirus. How do you guys feel? The Zeitgeist is out there at the moment for Corona related material.

Unknown Speaker 6:46

It's genuinely Interesting, isn't it because I personally oscillate between been kind of quite concerned about it. And thinking the world's gone completely batshit crazy and I think I don't know if There's a middle ground between those two or one of those positions is correct. It's certainly true that no one really knows how bad this is gonna get which is what makes it genuinely scary. I mean, I'm personally not really worried about dying or even getting the job but I am worried about inconvenience. Yeah,

Unknown Speaker 7:13

well that's the thing is that because it's like in the disaster movies, it's like Jeff Goldblum running in and going, guys like I told you that this crazy virus was going to come and it turns everyone crazy and they turn into zombies whereas this would be Jeff Goldblum running and going guys it's pretty bad cold. Yeah, you don't get a pretty bad cold.

Unknown Speaker 7:31

Please stay inside by yourself to like my dream.

Unknown Speaker 7:36

But yeah, there's no like, you know, Jurassic Park theme. There's no epic kind of. Yeah, I want a bit more.

Unknown Speaker 7:42

That's what we need. We need a theme song for the corona virus. I actually have some stings for this segment. I'm just gonna play them as we go. Let me know what you think they're pretty obvious.

Unknown Speaker 8:05

There's a few things I hate about that.

Unknown Speaker 8:08

And I'm gonna

Unknown Speaker 8:10

let me list them, but I'll just leave you with number one. Weird Al Yankovic. Weird Al Yankovic came out this week and said please stop asking me to do my Corona

Unknown Speaker 8:24

that without

Unknown Speaker 8:29

before we recorded this Friday, I've got a stings and I'm pretty sure Brady would like them.

Unknown Speaker 8:37

I have to tell you something, just as a quick aside of that, one of the things that I found really fascinating psychologically about this whole thing is is the cabin fever that people are experiencing been quarantined and you know, isolated for some people. It's just that two week period, but in some places around the world, people have been in their apartments now for a couple of months, which obviously will have psychological effects. But there has been a microphone to song that was release, which gets progressively bleaker, as you watch it. There's oldest content that's coming out. And look, I'm sure the four of us we're all comedians, if we were isolated for months, we'd probably be like, yeah, time to launch a YouTube channel like we do it.

Unknown Speaker 9:13

That's what a rational theory so I haven't jumped in yet.

Unknown Speaker 9:16

But it's interesting because a lot of the stuff that's coming out, you know, started very funny and sharp and is getting progressively weirder as a cabin fever. Really,

Unknown Speaker 9:26

I think this is a story of Corona I think, you know, Corona, the corona virus 19 we've all been saying this story. It did start off quite benign. It's like, Oh, it's in China. Oh, it's in it's another place. Oh, it's another place now it's here. But in like in Italy, the death rate is significant. Like it's something like 80% I can honestly

Unknown Speaker 9:41

say Is there ever been a better time to go to Italy?

Unknown Speaker 9:45

We've all been there. Well, I share a lot of people have been there and the queues until the Duomo in Makkah square in Venice, or to see the cathedral in Florence right now. Sure. There's a risk of picking up a job. For the convenience of getting straight into some of the world's greatest sites with no other crowds in the way you could have a gondola sing to you through a flu mask or we can

Unknown Speaker 10:12

set up the

Unknown Speaker 10:14

exclusive to

Unknown Speaker 10:15

go on a Chris Taylor chaser tour. finally

Unknown Speaker 10:18

make it a cruise

Unknown Speaker 10:22

I've got another sting.

Unknown Speaker 10:33

Hey, that is mom's Good luck song and now you've

Unknown Speaker 10:38

I've already started judging people who call it covered 19 you know, like there's two types of people. Those of us I'm still a bit old school I go with coronavirus arcanist people now when you're at barbecues or wherever, trying to sound a bit more

Unknown Speaker 10:50

American. I've done a bit more reading

Unknown Speaker 10:52

on four. I've read the Lancet this week. Cova 90. Use the Latin to describe your dog and call it canine

Unknown Speaker 11:02

stick to it.

Unknown Speaker 11:02

It's the best he comes back and goes I just came back from each gun boom.

Unknown Speaker 11:08

My friend

Unknown Speaker 11:10

stop calling it coronavirus Dan can't do half his pants

Unknown Speaker 11:15

please for the sake of day they still got Kobe.

Unknown Speaker 11:26

I do have one

Unknown Speaker 11:27

I do have one more. Okay I

Unknown Speaker 11:29

need to

Unknown Speaker 11:32

run around the world a lot of things being cancelled. The NBA is being cancelled cancelled. The NBA.

Unknown Speaker 11:38

Cancel College has gone too far.

Unknown Speaker 11:40

One NBA player last week whereas was at a press conference and joked that he had coronavirus and then at the press conference touched all the microphones that was last week. This week. He's been diagnosed with Corona virus conferences have been cancelled. Mona's doc mofo has been cancelled. hipsters gonna

Unknown Speaker 11:56

swim in the nude and winter now.

Unknown Speaker 11:59

Coachella has been postponed South by Southwest was cancelled James Bonds, the release of James Bond has been moved to the end of the year. That's really interesting because if it was just a normal normal theatre release from a normal studio, it just would just go out but like because MGM has one film franchise and they bank the house on it, they've got to move.

Unknown Speaker 12:18

Also, I heard a rumour that is completely unfounded. So I really must stress that this might not be true, but I think yeah, that the plotline is loosely. pandemic base. Oh, really? Right.

Unknown Speaker 12:31

Wow.

Unknown Speaker 12:33

Wow. I actually woke up on the weekend. I was like, I feel a bit sick. So I'm like, oh God. So I stayed in and was like flicking through Netflix. And all of the top films over the weekend. Were like contagious and like people are just staying at home watching like what they think of is now a documentary.

Unknown Speaker 12:50

They've gone viral.

Unknown Speaker 12:52

AIDS epidemic what was everyone just watching.

Unknown Speaker 12:58

stuck inside

Unknown Speaker 13:00

Yeah, there's one event in France that continued Friday that you you noticed

Bridie Connell 13:03

is Look, I love this story. I kind of think it's quite inspiring, which is absolutely not the angle that most media have taken to this story, but in a town in the northwest of France, there you know, despite all of the advice of the local health bodies to stay at home and to maintain, you know, distance and a bit of social isolation and be very careful and hygienic, and don't and not to congregate. Almost 4000 people came out dressed as Smurfs to break the world record for the amount of people dressed to Smurfs at one time. Yeah, just reckless defiance in the face of this adversity. And I love it because I feel like if the world is ending, let's go out being the weirdos that we are doing the things that we love.

Unknown Speaker 13:48

Don't even if you don't break the record for the most amount of space, you probably would break the record for the most amount of dead Smurfs.

Unknown Speaker 13:58

The experts are recommending handling And social distancing Chris as someone who dated for a very long time you've got some good tips on social.

Unknown Speaker 14:08

First of all, I I hadn't heard this phrase social distancing until this week it sounds if ever there was a phrase that sounded very euphemistic sounds like something that Nazis would have done during the Holocaust it's a no brainer we didn't get those Jews with socially distance ourselves from them. I I love the coronavirus. Well,

Unknown Speaker 14:28

happy to be the patina

Unknown Speaker 14:32

and take a contrary view, what's socially acceptable,

Unknown Speaker 14:34

you aren't chasing that oh my

Unknown Speaker 14:36

god, I'm gonna call the academy or television remove those loads.

Unknown Speaker 14:41

Anyone is has a slightly anti socialist trick will probably understand like for years, we've had to come up with excuses when we don't want to go to your shitty play, or your annoying birthday party that's in an incredibly inconvenient location. I've I've had to kill relatives just to pretend I've got a death in the family now. It's so easy to not go anywhere you simply say,

Unknown Speaker 15:03

yeah, it's so funny lead this shitty play because out of the four of us here, how many plays Have you written?

Unknown Speaker 15:09

I remember getting invites to several of those. It's actually very easy for me to say I wasn't going

Unknown Speaker 15:15

back then we didn't have a virus to rely on. It wasn't a good virus so you can't say sighs because it's Asia nurse was in the Middle East Exactly. Now we've got our very own

Unknown Speaker 15:24

got our own and I'm milking this like I I'm really hoping it's hanging around for a long time as for anti social sort of smoke bombs like me. perfect opportunity to lock yourself up and never see anyone.

Unknown Speaker 15:34

I was half expecting a text tonight saying sorry. Via fire.

Unknown Speaker 15:39

Look, it's the thing about I mean, I don't know a lot of us probably do work from home as Freelancer so it's not unusual. So I've got a lot of friends who have been getting serious sort of emails or lectures from their bosses encouraging them to work from home. A good friend of mine works on the great ABC show mad as hell and they had a serious discussion yesterday, apparently. They're gonna continue without a studio audience Well, now I don't know at what point like from next week I will just wind it up. That is sort of monitoring that as everyone is like I know that I know

Unknown Speaker 16:09

there are a lot of festivals Wayne, Ellen Ellen's deep Nicks her audience in America and I know there there's not a lot of people in the audience's for coal barons, Seth and

Unknown Speaker 16:19

his own still bringing out anyone from YouTube like an actual ad on his son like kid who did a dance on a wholesale ad.

Unknown Speaker 16:27

Imagine if you were that kid who wore bright sneakers to school that day at tik tok that blew up and went to Elon to go on Elon and there was no one in the audience to celebrate

Unknown Speaker 16:37

the warm up guy even if there's not an actual like

Unknown Speaker 16:42

that would be a union job, sir.

Unknown Speaker 16:45

Warming up when a

Unknown Speaker 16:50

guy makes a joke.

Unknown Speaker 16:51

Yeah. Let me ask a philosophical question here.

Unknown Speaker 16:54

I mean, I've done often comedy shows with a very thin audience. Well, it's

Unknown Speaker 16:59

a good idea. For the comedy festival when no one's gonna come to the irrational fear show and now at least we can blame it on something. It

Unknown Speaker 17:05

sounds a lot like oh yeah, actually last week's episode was the best one ever. It just wasn't

Unknown Speaker 17:11

I mean, this week's episode nightly didn't do you know what it's like to perform

Unknown Speaker 17:17

without a TV audience actually without any other

Unknown Speaker 17:19

one that just cracks me up even though it's awful is sport. You mentioned the NBA. Yeah, Italy's banned all its soccer fixtures or like professional matches, not the matches just the audience. Yeah. So I still, there's two things I love about this one. Do they still sing the anthem?

Unknown Speaker 17:38

Last night last night the Matilda's the string soccer team qualified for the Tokyo Olympics against Vietnam in Vietnam. They played to an empty stadium. They sat out and sang the anthem to begin with.

Unknown Speaker 17:51

Okay, this is because normally Eric and a lot of athletes really rely on the crowd to do the heavy lifting. Yeah, they can't think of a sheet. Most of them. Don't know that. How

Unknown Speaker 18:00

did they go when there's no one around? They seem to do okay. Yeah. But also it was a very it was a very wide shot. So I could I didn't they didn't do the full cut ups on the lips. I couldn't I couldn't judge.

Unknown Speaker 18:10

And then the second thing that I'm looking forward to, especially in the European soccer leagues, is gold celebrations. How much do you really feed off the energy of the crowd? If you're doing a backflip and getting your shirt off and do it? Do you still do that when you know there's no one there to see it?

Unknown Speaker 18:26

Now? You just kidding. Got one. Yeah.

Unknown Speaker 18:31

Let's go back to the middle.

Unknown Speaker 18:33

I got one more thing. No.

Unknown Speaker 18:40

She's back in the penguin. The whole thing. She put the bat in the bank, an agent or

Unknown Speaker 18:50

an agent the whole thing up.

Unknown Speaker 18:59

Sorry, I just saw I'm gonna actually have to

Unknown Speaker 19:03

know what that song is. But I do know that without put out a

Unknown Speaker 19:08

sign if anyone does a parody of that,

Unknown Speaker 19:10

wash your hands and refrain from releasing parody songs

Unknown Speaker 19:13

a little later on, we'll have Bernie Sanders and he'll be discussing what he went through for the Democratic primaries. But soon we'll be discussing when a national bushfire recovery fund isn't a national bushfire recovery fund, but right now, he's a real expert on Corona virus. It's friend of the show, epidemiologist professor, Hilary bendrick.

Unknown Speaker 19:31

Thanks, Dan.

Unknown Speaker 19:32

Now, how is Kovac 19 for you, as someone who's an epidemiologist, I assume that it's like Christmas for epidemiologists. Right?

Unknown Speaker 19:43

Well, thankfully, I'm not that kind of epidemiologist. So I'm quite well, well protected. I get to sit up sit at my desk and and look at numbers and patterns. But there are some epidemiologists out there who are actually doing the what we called applied epidemiology where they're out in the thick of it, so Amongst

Unknown Speaker 20:00

now broadly speaking, we hear a lot of so called experts on on 2g Bay and and Sky News. Tell us what we should be thinking about when it comes to coronavirus on fox news that you've been downplaying covert 19 to maybe what could be seemed to be dangerous levels of reporting to kind of minimising the threat. What do you think that happy balance is in communicating the dangers of coronavirus? 90?

Unknown Speaker 20:24

Yeah, that's not that's a really good question. Because it is something that for many people won't actually be a serious infection. But for a large number of people in the community, they are actually at increased risk. So if you're if you're older, if you have a number of what we call comorbidities, you know, chronic disease going on. If your immune suppressed, then then it is actually pretty serious. So I guess, you know, it's not a serious issue for you if for you personally if you're not one of those people, but we all actually have a part to play in terms of protecting everyone else around us. And I have to say that I'm not sure whether to be heartened or terrified by the absence of soap on the supermarket. When I was shopping the other night, because it made me wonder, you know why it's great that people have got the message that hand washing is good, but it made me wonder what were they doing beforehand?

Unknown Speaker 21:11

Exactly. I mean on such a big nose pickup myself. I've had to put restrictions on the times I pick my nose you know, I make sure I pick get a good pick in after I do some hand washing for I sanitise my hand, but I assume that would be bad anyway because I'm sure there's diseases that my nose has already trapped and they're just going straight into my fingers.

Unknown Speaker 21:31

Well, and from a public health perspective, we you know, I asked you on behalf of Australia to also sanitise your hands after you've picked your nose as well.

Unknown Speaker 21:40

Right? Okay, I'm only thinking about myself, always thinking about myself. Now you actually made a good point about thinking about for for folks who may have symptoms or may be concerned about their own health to think about the people in their lives, who may be more vulnerable. What kind of things do you think people should be? Considering,

Unknown Speaker 22:00

well certainly if you're unwell do stay away from stay away from other people avoid going to work where you can look, nobody is indispensable from from their from their job, and your colleagues are not going to thank you if you make them sick. And this is a message I give out to my staff every flu season as well, you know, if you're sick, please don't turn up. If you've been asked to self isolate, don't go and do a mad rush last minute shop at your local supermarket. I mean, we've seen that happening, please just ask somebody else to go get you, you know, hand down some toilet paper for you or hand sanitizer, whatever it is that you need in a baked beans. But don't go out and do it yourself. So if you know do take this seriously. And the whole idea at this stage is we're very unlikely to actually stop the corona virus in its tracks and have it you know, it is something that is going to be much more widespread in our community. So the whole plan at the moment is to avoid that massive peak of infection. And basically, we don't want to overwhelm the health system. So the whole idea is to sort of Right out there the rate at which people are getting infected, slow it down so that our health system can actually cope.

Unknown Speaker 23:06

You're on the climate council as well. Is there any correlation? Or what's the link between diseases and pandemics like this and a warming planet? Is there any?

Unknown Speaker 23:17

Look, I wouldn't say so for for Corona virus but there is some indication that you know, the the ambient temperature and humidity and so on may play a part in how some diseases are transmitted including Corona virus, but I'd say it's very early days yet to say what that might be. of more concern is that, you know, it seems to be more readily transmitted where people are, you know, hanging around indoors, for example. So we'd see similarly with flu season, that it's actually sort of the the colder months that are of a risk at greater risk in terms of where people are hanging out

Unknown Speaker 23:55

what you said what you're saying, Hillary is that our Melbourne Comedy Festival show in three weeks time you He's going to be a fantastic incubator for not only culture of comedy, but cultural

Unknown Speaker 24:05

coronavirus.

Unknown Speaker 24:09

I understand what's one interesting stat about Kovac 19, that you've been wowed by over the last few weeks of looking at this virus take home around the world,

Unknown Speaker 24:18

something that's impressed me the most, is that infection numbers and numbers of people dying are actually declining. In China, for example, while we're seeing sort of massively increasing rates of infection and people dying in Italy for as another sort of contrasting example, and I guess, thinking about the the ways that we manage these sorts of things, the rules put in place in China sort of you know, really lock lock places down seem quite extreme, but they do actually work like quarantine is something that does actually work. It's sort of you know, tried and true way of stopping spreading infection.

Unknown Speaker 24:54

I can't imagine that laissez faire attitude of your average Italian would would go so go Go down so well we've been

Unknown Speaker 25:01

missing in the hugging. Oh yeah

Unknown Speaker 25:02

the double kissing you have doubled the chance of getting coronavirus because young wah wah The Continental way. That's right. Oh my gosh, is it is it a crazy idea to stockpile toilet paper?

Unknown Speaker 25:17

Or Comedy Festival tickets perhaps might be it's not

Unknown Speaker 25:19

a crazy idea to stockpile to call the comedy festival in fact you can use your Comedy Festival ticket if you get it mailed to you as toilet paper before it comes to the show.

Unknown Speaker 25:27

That's right look look I think it shows how an imaginative Australians are when it comes to wiping our asses or cleaning our asses. So you know if we Italy's not suffering for example, from a shortage of toilet paper, are they because they've all got their their birthdays in their in their bathrooms instead of toilet paper and look you will find on the internet if you're feeling a little bit inclined that you'd prefer a little bit of a bit of a wash rather than a wipe. There are instructions on the internet on how to convert your own toilet into with a sort of a bead a attachment. it's um it's basically you know a bit bit of a hose and a squat. In a gun and away you go.

Unknown Speaker 26:02

That's great. I love the idea that people's houses are gonna have shortage of garden hose but not for making bombs but they're making good days sometimes. So

Unknown Speaker 26:13

let's go Oh, what are you doing? You make it a bomb

Unknown Speaker 26:15

now make it a day. Let me

Unknown Speaker 26:18

wash my bomb. God, is there one tip you want to impart to people one bit of advice you want to party people, but before you go,

Unknown Speaker 26:27

Oh, yeah, well, maybe it may be a couple actually. I guess wash your hands. Get your kids to wash their hands. Don't maybe stop shaking hands. You can do the fist bump instead or you know some of us were talking about doing the back bump but that might be a bit overly familiar for some people. And I guess some Yeah, just be be courteous, be kind. Not everyone's got an amazing immune system and this will be something that affects people.

Unknown Speaker 26:50

I had a lady I was walking down the street. I was walking to Oxford Street two days ago, and I stroked my bead and subconsciously and a lady kind of like rushed hen metres towards me and said thank you so much in a sarcastic way and then stroked her own face. I'm like, What are you doing? Like I just stroke my beard unintentionally you intentionally stroke to your face by making fun of me for stroking my face.

Unknown Speaker 27:17

Do you think so?

Unknown Speaker 27:19

You probably find you actually stroke up at about 30 times an hour without realising.

Unknown Speaker 27:24

I. You know, I've been arguing my panda loves my beard, but I've been arguing with her that I should shave it off because I'll probably touch my face less.

Unknown Speaker 27:32

Well, he might find it so smooth and delightful that you touch it more

Unknown Speaker 27:35

understandably for her. I look better with it because I'm just extremely fat. It really hides my double chin.

Unknown Speaker 27:44

Thanks, professor.

Unknown Speaker 27:45

No worries. Thanks, Dan.

Unknown Speaker 27:48

most extraordinary flirt piece in your flirting with a wall talking about how much your wife loves you.

Unknown Speaker 27:54

Not to brag, but I look really bad.

Unknown Speaker 27:58

Nothing better than bringing up issue with someone who can't see you as okay. She's like, I'm not gonna comment on that.

Unknown Speaker 28:06

Here's referred refused. She did well, very small

Unknown Speaker 28:09

anecdote about the person in the street. Yeah, it is true. There are some very, very powerful

Unknown Speaker 28:16

passive aggressiveness out there.

Unknown Speaker 28:18

The most extraordinary little encounter this week I, this might be a slight overshare but I just been a pathologist for some fertility testing. And they'd given me this little cup and it was sort of in a very medical looking bag and after I left with it, I went into the corner shop. And this man,

Unknown Speaker 28:36

there's no way you meant to fill it. If you're

Unknown Speaker 28:44

a painter, and recently I'll give you some tips.

Unknown Speaker 28:46

The whole wall of Pringles in the very arousing so I like to go there, but he just saw me carry anything looking vaguely medical immediately assumed coronavirus and ordered me to get out of the shop and I just had like the perfect comeback. I sort of embarrassed him But no, no, no, I need to masturbate in to show you. I'm happy not to do it in your shop. But I assure you it's nothing Corona related. But just the smallest thing that looks vaguely medical is now assumed to be Karina.

Unknown Speaker 29:20

I reckon given that visual I would ask you that

Unknown Speaker 29:24

I think of as eataly right now.

Unknown Speaker 29:27

irrational fear and I haven't touched my face in weeks and weeks.

Unknown Speaker 29:31

Back in January six Scott Morrison stood at a press conference and announced a national bushfire recovery fund of about $2 billion, but this week in senate estimates it was discovered that it didn't exist Louis, this is your favourite story of the week?

Unknown Speaker 29:46

Well, I mean, I don't know if it's my favourite I found it quite chilling. If I'm honest, like I think that the coronavirus obviously taking up all of our time and all the media, it could not have come at a better time for Scott Morrison. really like it. All of the things that it is glossing over the sports rights Angus Taylor, and now they like the they basically, if you just catch up on the story, he was under a lot of pressure it the whole Hawaiian crisis was there. And he just stood up and was like, well, we're gonna give $2 billion to the bushfire and put out an ad. Yeah, that's right. They put out that crazy ad, which potentially,

Unknown Speaker 30:21

people said, Oh, well, from holiday. He's doing something. He's given 2 billion. Maybe he's got this.

Unknown Speaker 30:26

Yeah. And so then they went through sentences. And they there's there's a revised budget here, which is looking for this 2 billion with a B billion dollars that you promised, and we can't see it. and nice. And the response from the coalition was well, it's a notional Fund, which they then dug into notional meaning speculative, theoretical, or only in the mind, which is truly is the art like we were there was notional. There was a notional surplus, yet this notional notional emergency fund thing, like, it's like shredding is funding. If you look at it, it disappears. It's

Unknown Speaker 31:04

like we're being gas lit.

Unknown Speaker 31:07

Like I dated this guy.

Unknown Speaker 31:11

I totally told you I was dating someone else.

Unknown Speaker 31:16

I notionally propose to you.

Unknown Speaker 31:19

It's it's stunning. And I absolutely. In any other time, this would this would undo a government and right now, the fact that he's been able to go, Well, I've just promised another 17 billion and you're like,

Unknown Speaker 31:32

Well, have you?

Unknown Speaker 31:34

Yeah, we don't even know Will you?

Unknown Speaker 31:36

Will it extend out to 22 billion and journalists on each case about it and every question i pit against Angus Tyler and sports words, he just goes no, we're not dealing with that we're gonna do with Corona right now. And Corona becomes the thing that he can totally get rid of any other question about any I

Unknown Speaker 31:52

mean, always say how good Corona is for the anti social people but for governments with something in the heart, it is amazing. I mean, this can't last long enough for this government. It's The only thing that probably is gonna, you know, save him in the eyes of Australian people. Trump, by contrast, you think, you know he's got his own problems, but then just having survived an impeachment. You think he'd want to go full on scare fearful with it, but he's sort of gone the opposite direction bizarrely and sort of pretending has nothing

Unknown Speaker 32:18

to see. And I think there's a major problem there because Fox News, they're doing the same. They're like copying him and kind of saying minimising the threat to the point where it's dangerous because the only people that watch fox news are old people, and they and they're the most paid. They're the most vulnerable people most at risk from dying of Corona and if I don't think it's a real issue,

Unknown Speaker 32:36

then they're gonna be they're gonna be dead. If all they will start dying. It's gonna be bad news for the coalition because I won't have any voters. The only other people it's really in effect is the IBC there'll be no one left to watch it. Gardening Australia will just be Costa will just be watching it at home himself. I mean, grand designs, you know, who's watching grand designs if Karina takes over and over 65

Unknown Speaker 32:58

Well, one person who is very clearly upset With Corona, and other things in his world, his senator Bernie Sanders and I spoke to him earlier this week. Joining us now from his Vermont headquarters, his Democratic presidential candidate, Senator Bernie Sanders, Senator Sanders, have this week's results at all diminished your enthusiasm at all for this presidential race.

Unknown Speaker 33:17

You'll know what my enthusiasm has not diminished at all. There is still work to be done. I'm just excited I still have a job with with medical benefits that will see me through the corona virus outbreak. Well

Unknown Speaker 33:30

send it out. Good luck out there and I hope you don't get infected.

Unknown Speaker 33:32

Well, you know what, I cannot possibly get get infected then because I have the vaccine. Oh, I didn't know there was a vaccine. Well, of course it's a vaccine. You make a virus you make a vaccine.

Unknown Speaker 33:43

Senator, are you saying that you invented

Unknown Speaker 33:45

Corona virus? Let me be clear. Yeah. Let me be very clear. This is Plan B for Bernie. I didn't want to enact it. What the mainstream media msnbc cnn but BNC they made me do it coronavirus will be The biggest wealth redistribution policy of the last hundred years you see a disproportionately affects the older generation 99% of the 1% or 100%. Older as fuck you understand, excuse my language, it's simple, but boomers will get sick. And now money will trickle down to the younger generations for the working people. All of the countries in Europe are doing it. It's very big in Italy, in Iran and China, those last countries and actually in Europe. My the words the United States of America not let's not forget that. Now. This is a message to the DNC and the super delegates out there. You're all listening. You want to live let democracy take hold. The person who gets the most votes should win. A vote for Bernie is a vote for a universal vaccine. I'm Bernie Sanders on I approve this message.

Unknown Speaker 34:45

Well, then yeah, I think for all our sakes, I I

Unknown Speaker 34:48

hope you are the Democratic nominee. Thank you very much done. I appreciate the call. Thank you, Benny.

Unknown Speaker 34:53

has good chat with Danny. Well, thank you very much for joining us for irrational fear. Once again. It's very awesome of you Make your way in here despite the coronavirus

Unknown Speaker 35:04

just want to apologise if I've used up the entire toilet?

Unknown Speaker 35:09

I haven't had any for the last two weeks. Thank you for humouring me while I watched two weeks worth of shit.

Unknown Speaker 35:15

We are back weekly until our Comedy Festival show so please head to our Patreon give us a few bucks to make this show happen. It costs us quite a bit of time and some money every week to

Unknown Speaker 35:24

get working out of and Scott can inside.

Unknown Speaker 35:27

Yeah, we've already put out two shots

Unknown Speaker 35:29

and we recorded more than

Unknown Speaker 35:32

two hour. Special thanks to Rupa Degas Jacob round FBI radio and I'll see amongst tonight Louis harbour Chris Taylor bridey Connell, do you guys have anything to plug in? Oh

Unknown Speaker 35:46

yeah, he's the guest spots in shows that will probably be cancelled in Melbourne International.

Unknown Speaker 35:52

Dan, I'll be back next week and I'm on radio every day you can listen to plug it you know, listen Oh,

Unknown Speaker 36:00

I'd like to plug

Unknown Speaker 36:00

my site 3pm

Unknown Speaker 36:03

Triple J listen in I don't know

Unknown Speaker 36:05

you pay for it you might have to listen to Patreon.

Unknown Speaker 36:10

In the meantime, there's always something to be scared of good night. We will leave you with the latest from news fighters in the coronavirus from DJ diabolical

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

PATREON: https://www.patreon.com/ARationalFear

We lost the show! Well, Dan lost the show. Always eject the disk properly people!

But we still have a podcast! Chock a block of content.

(03:30) Sponsorship announcement: Local Newspapers.

(05:25) We speak with journalist Asher Wolf about how people with vulnerable immune systems are taking coronavirus seriously.

(10:30) And we speak with progressive comedian Francesca Fiorentini about the wash up of Super Tuesday and the way forward for Bernie Sanders' supporters.

(17:50) Credits

(19:00) Newsfighters on Coronavirus

____________________________

TRANSCRIPTION by Otter.ai:

Unknown Speaker 0:00

G'day Dan Ilic, here from A Rational Fear. Well, we just had a great show. We had Christiaan Van Vuuren. We had Madeline Stewart. We had Louis Hobba. All in this space here at FB high radio, and we had a fantastic show. But I lost it. Yes, I pulled the hard drive out before I was meant to. And the whole show is totally gone. But the good news is we've got a stack of content to get through stuff that we have made earlier for the show. And I'm just going to put it together and run it for you right now. It's that easy. So before we play, the hits, are gonna let you know we do have a Melbourne Comedy Festival show. The Tickets are on sale. Now. We're about 30% 40% sold out. So probably in about five weeks time when the show is on will be completely sold out. So make sure you get your tickets for that. We're playing the Melbourne Town Hall on April six. One show only. It's a big show. We've got the ARIA award winning comedy Joe bridey and white from tonight late we've got the Walkley award winning Patricia vellus the Walkley award losing James Colley he writes for the weekly

Unknown Speaker 1:00

Multiple award winning Alex Fraser, DJ Dylan Bain with their Louis harbour and I will also be there we have been nominated for several esteem prizes. Also, we have a Patreon go to patreon.com forward slash irrational fear and give us some money. The show takes a little bit to kind of put on the road. So we've got a few expenses if you can help us do that, that'd be great. I would love 100 of you who listen to jump on Patreon and subscribe to the three bucks a month. I promise you we'll be delivering new podcasts that exist now and won't get deleted. Oh my god, I can't believe it deleted the first show back. This show is recorded on gadigal Land of the euro nation and I pay our respects to elder's past present and emerging sovereignty was never stated. And as I would normally say let's stop the show. A rational fear contains naughty words like bricks cambro fan and section 40 of a rational fear recommended listening by emerge your audience

Unknown Speaker 2:00

Tonight on a rational fear as the Australian Government prepares to ban cash transactions over $10,000 It leaves drug dealers with only one choice to buy and sell drugs with rolls of toilet paper instead. And the federal government has rolled out funding Australia's only dedicated bushfire Research Centre, claiming that there's no way to guarantee the prevention of bushfires in only marginal electrics. And after last year cutting $100 million from the CSI row, the federal government generously boosted their funding by 2 million to fast track a Corona virus faxing $2 million. So to put it in a way that a government minister might understand it's about the same price as a rugby clubs women's change room, wash your hands twice and don't touch your face. This is irrational fear.

Unknown Speaker 2:58

Like I said at the very top of the show where you

Unknown Speaker 3:00

We have a very short show for you tonight. First up, we spoke with journalist Asher wolf about what kinds of things people should really be stocking up on during this coronavirus pandemic. And from AJ plus MSNBC and the Young Turks, comedian Francesca Fiorentina, he gives us a taste of what young progressives are feeling like after the Joe Biden search on Super Tuesday. Also, we've got a great sample of news fighters as they wade into the petri dish. That is the corona virus. The first step it's 2020. And as well as the Patreon we also have sponsors. He's our first sponsor for irrational fear this year.

Unknown Speaker 3:37

Hello, I'm rupert murdoch, defender of freedom and owner of some of the world's greatest democracies. Therefore, I was a successful mogul of many media. I started out in just one local newspapers. Well actually I inherited from my dad, but that's beside the point that always used to say TV, gonna rock your mind. So I thought, that's how

Unknown Speaker 4:00

And I started Sky News. He also used to say radio doesn't have pictures and I thought that's perfect for ugly men with beautiful things to say. He also used to tell me you can't tear the internet into strips and wipe your ass with all he would have if he was alive fucking internet. So why not get hold of a news corp local newspaper today? We're specialists and providing two or three pages of inaccurate and poorly written local articles copied and pasted from press releases by 19 year old kids whose dreams of being real journalists will slowly fade. Mix in 50 pages of real estate porn for houses your neighbours don't want to live in ads for sex workers traders, secondhand car sales and third hand power sales and you've got yourself a local newspaper. Pick up a free local newspaper down Put on the nature strip or underneath a hedge new you today.

Unknown Speaker 5:00

On have a rain. Actually, we don't care if you do, we've already been paid by the advertisers. So they're

Unknown Speaker 5:10

fair. During the last taping of irrational fear. We did speak a lot about the crazy pandemic and panic buying that people are going through when it comes to stockpiling toilet paper. But you know, some people have no choice to take this stuff seriously. Here is a chat I had with someone who has to do just that.

Unknown Speaker 5:31

Joining us now is one person who has a real reason to be cautiously pragmatic. It's journalist Tasha wolf. She suffers from Ehlers danlos Syndrome and autoimmune progesterone anaphylaxis. She's basically allergic to her own hormones. And while she's actually a young person, even the slightest threat to her immune system is very, very real. Ashley, thanks for joining us.

Unknown Speaker 5:55

If someone who, whose body is actually probably more prone to this virus than

Unknown Speaker 6:00

But being still a young person how do you deal with all the jokes about missing toilet paper and things like that? Look on one hand there is some crazy cracking going on where people are right out there grabbing Kansas, you know my wife cheese

Unknown Speaker 6:16

but on the other hand it's a privilege to make fun of people who

Unknown Speaker 6:21

probably are at a higher risk of being seriously ill if they catch cruda virus but you have people who are like, you know, it doesn't matter to me like the 1% of people who are seriously ill who are going to die and I'm like, yet I'm one of those 1% who have low immune to skin issues. If I catch a general flu, I walk away feeling terrible. For months. I really like not to catch coronavirus.

Unknown Speaker 6:45

It's a risk. It's a real risk to me, but I also didn't want to go wild, I guess you could say with prepping, but I wanted to be cautious. The other night you put out a list on Twitter about things that folks with disabilities have to think about.

Unknown Speaker 7:00

During this oncoming crisis, what are some of those things that people with disabilities kind of need to consider when you're a person with disability quite often you have a very different experience of life and survival than the average Christian you know, you might not have the income to order

Unknown Speaker 7:18

on a regular basis, you may be allergic to certain foods, and it becomes quite hard to eat out, or you know, order a great because now even if you did have the cash to do it, then you're allergic to half of the things that get put in, you know, take away food, you really do need to cook for yourself, if you have some allergies and sensitivities say, for me, it would be completely it'll be both impractical and potentially cause me a good deal of pain if I was just you know, 100 or a noodle dish for demonstrate if I had to stay home. So there's a few people who I've talked to on Twitter, who said certain things going off their shelves like crazy like people are obviously

Unknown Speaker 8:00

bulk ordering. So they call doc storage. And then distortions that are used for online orders, things that they really seeing flying off the show. Nothing formula. If you're a parent with a small toddler quite often, you find that some toddlers have certain issues with like regurgitation, and they can only use certain sorts of formula. If you had a child like that. And it's already difficult to find the right formula. I would be stocking up as a parent with a child like that. I mean, to me, it's just if things go badly wrong, I don't want to injure myself tryna handle a trial and illness and your mid I had to to access any my schedule, right? You might want to have a chat to your doctor about the supply chain of short, sir, get you like drugs because it's absolutely awful to detox off those kinds of meds at home without support just because you want out and you can't get anymore. The other thing people might want to have a chat to their doctor about is is they have meds that are already hard to access.

Unknown Speaker 9:00

Kind of like acid to start building sometimes. And sometimes it takes interrupted for migraines you want to get for the packet when it comes to sumatriptan with trying to mimic acid dozle already some problems with supply chain, you might want to put aside a little bit extract or getting early research your scripts now because proximately 90% of our meds come from China and things not shipping as per normal contract. What kind of late time Can Can people still those kinds of meds on their own in their own fridge? right they weren't that's the problem. There's a thing called psycho script, which means that you get deemed a pharmacy if you try and take out certain men early. For one way around. It may be that doctors decide to order the script, put it in their own fridge and hold it for a month for patients. And then they can release it to patients when needed. But I think it would be a really terrible situation. If you ended up with people who are or IPS. You know, there's a range of skinny

Unknown Speaker 10:00

Drugs fortunate

Unknown Speaker 10:03

including palliative care patients.

Unknown Speaker 10:17

turning out to Super Tuesday, Joe Biden's search past all predictions and knocked the wind out of Bernie Sanders the sales. The most surprising thing of was, of course, was that Mike Bloomberg didn't win anything after spending $700 billion of his own money, except for American Samoa. Earlier today I spoke with Bernie Sanders Die Hard and comedian Francesca if you're intending on just how she's feeling a day after the bomb and wipe out

Unknown Speaker 10:48

in a bunker somewhere in California is a comedian and broadcaster too scared to face the reality of what could be the return to normcore 90s politics in the USA from AJ plus and MSNBC and TYT

Unknown Speaker 11:00

Francesca Fiorentina. Hello, Francesca. Hello? No, just Yeah, all the acronyms. I love it.

Unknown Speaker 11:08

I assume people know what all those things.

Unknown Speaker 11:12

It's the day after Super Tuesday in the USA right now or I, as I believe you call it woeful Wednesday. How is progressive America dealing with the news that Joe Biden could be the new daddy?

Unknown Speaker 11:24

Yes, it's it's Boxing Day for our hopes and dreams. And what the Biden pill has been, the vitamin pill has been one that's a little bit tough to swallow, because, you know, he is a very rapid, rapidly ageing, cognitively eating old man. And I know that's strange to say when someone like Bernie Sanders is in the race, but, you know, Biden has like regular mental gaffes. And you're kind of just like, I don't know if I want to watch this debate between Biden and Trump, which effectively is like you're in

Unknown Speaker 12:00

Laws arguing over who's going to carve the turkey with it? Oh, you gotta use an electric knife. No, you know. And that, I think is the fear that a lot of people are looking at like, Are we really going to put our senile old man up against their senile old man?

Unknown Speaker 12:20

And I don't know if our see no man's gonna win? Well, at least you know being from the left. It's a fair fight. No. And obviously it's not over yet. I mean, that's the big thing is that there's still more than half the delegates to get remember, in this country for some reason we have and just in this party, we don't elect the nominee based on popular vote. It's just this ridiculous, kind of wonky delegate math that nobody gets. And so there's still more than half the delegates. It's not over yet. Of course, a lot of folks are saying that young people didn't turn out to vote over Super Tuesday. Why is it that young people in America don't like divide? It's not cool, and it's long Tick Tock? No, it's got it.

Unknown Speaker 13:00

Once and this is a thing, Bernie or Biden will have to be big on Tick Tock and once they are, if they have a coordinated dance where every elbow jab also points to like, where the voting station is like that's, you know that that's when voting becomes cool, but no, I think Bernie, Bernie is the renegade Ben Bernie could do the renegade. He is the original Renegade. Oh, absolutely.

Unknown Speaker 13:25

I mean, I think young folks, I'm not sure about all the data. That's like one article that I saw that was like young folks aren't turning out.

Unknown Speaker 13:32

I do think that of all the young people, it's the Sanders campaign that has overwhelmingly the majority of support among young folks of all races, religions, ethnicities, etc. But it is a hard moment in your life to go out and vote in a primary, right? You're like, just starting to have sex and smoke weed. You are you're you're maybe in college, you're like, how am I gonna afford to pay for this? Also, I'm learning about

Unknown Speaker 14:00

colonialism. Oh my god. So you're like voting that feels stupid. So I think there's a lot of reasons why young people, especially in a primary are like I got, you know better things to do. Why would I vote without? There's only six on me? Yeah, I just exactly get it off. Now even though Mike Bloomberg did get in the race quite late, he spent half a billion dollars he did win American Samoa, what do American Samoans see him Bloomberg and no one else can listen. I'm pretty sure he bought the entire island. Oh, my mistake. This is the thing with every time there's a you know, there's an election and we're like, wait a minute, we still have American Samoa what like what are these like vestiges of colonial past that for some reason the US wields way too much power over and as like devastated and impoverished. And I think it is kind of sad to be totally honest with you that people aren't reaching out to American Samoa and then it was advertised

Unknown Speaker 15:00

Mint dollars, mostly that reach them. But it's hard to send canvassers out there or it's hard to get, you know, canvassers there. Listen, I'm happy to be sent to Americans and volunteer work on the very end. I thought that'd be fun. I would learn how to serve and cook barbecue or something. I think a hunger a hunger, I think I think they call it a honey. It's a barbecue in a pit. Yeah, a honey. Exactly. And we will barbecue the billionaire's roast them on an open flame. When Bernie Sanders gets into office. Obviously, that's what democratic socialism is about. At the time of recording right now. Warren still hasn't conceded she's still hanging in there. Why do you think that is?

Unknown Speaker 15:40

Yes, it's this is a very interesting for progressives in the US.

Unknown Speaker 15:46

And people out there just progressives, again, people want actually something a little bit different than then, as you said, a return to 90s politics, which is the Warren question and whether she should have dropped out sooner or not. I just want to say from the outset, like

Unknown Speaker 16:00

I distinguish between her supporters who I feel like, I'm not all but a lot of them, their hearts are in the right place. They do want, as she says big structural change. They believe that she was the best messenger and the best vehicle and the best leader for that structural change, I think after three or four races, and US states where she came in, third, fourth, and fifth, you can't really say that anymore. You can't really claim that she's got a plan for everything because clearly that plan should have included at winning at least one of the early states, whoever is running her campaign, and her herself. They've really been watching this. It's been hard to watch the heel turn away from Medicare for all the heel turn when she was swearing that she wouldn't raise the taxes of the middle class. And it's like, you know, that's a trick question. Elizabeth, like, you know, you were just being asked whether you were going to raise taxes on the middle class, just to

Unknown Speaker 17:00

appeal to a conservative voter who would never even vote for you anyway. And you kind of fell for it in the same way that you fell for a DNA test to prove that you were point 03 percent Native American. She absolutely needs to drop out now. And but we'll see. You know, I liken it a little bit to Game of Thrones, no spoilers, but you know, the generic question is like, which way is she going to go? How is it going to end is Khaleesi going to be on the side of good or on the side of burn it all down? And that would be I think, going with Biden, throwing the progressive movement under the bus, a rational fear. Knowing your viewers know how crazy Trump is, and they know that same people have to work together.

Unknown Speaker 17:48

You can listen to the full interview of Francesca on our Patreon. Also, you can check out Francesca's work on a j pluses news broke and MSNBC. Red, white and hurt now next week on irrational fear.

Unknown Speaker 18:00

promise we will have a show that I won't lose. Chris Taylor will be on the show from the chase bridey corner from tonight will also be here, and we're back weekly until our Comedy Festival show so please head to our Patreon and give us a few bucks to help us make the show cost us a little bit of money each way to make it a big thank you to Robert De gas Peter G. Jacob brown FBI radio and our fear mongers tonight Lewis harbour Christian Van Buren, Madeline Stewart, who have all got great things on that they need to plug including Madeline Stewart has got a comedy festival Sharon called the underdogs. She's taken to the Melbourne Comedy Festival and the Sydney Comedy Festival. She runs a great night called crypts and crepes. It's for comedians who have got disabilities. And she runs it monthly at one of seven projects in Redmond. So do go check that out. We'll leave you right now with the latest news fighters episode on coronavirus from DJ diabolical Until next week, there's always something to be scared of, namely, pulling the USB disk out before it's free.

Unknown Speaker 19:00

fully exploited a rational fear and I haven't touched my face in weeks and weeks. This is News fighters.

Unknown Speaker 19:10

We fight the news so you don't have to. Okay, so first up, it's time for an update on the coronavirus and a New South Wales. Things are getting real health minister Brad has suggested that people stop shaking hands. I think it's time for us to stand shaking. It will be sensible not to be hand shaking, no hand shaking, no hand shaking. I mean, I think for sydneysiders this will be normal for us. I mean, our traditional grading when we encounter someone for the first time is just to get out of my way. So what is the New South Wales health minister suggesting we do instead of shaking hands then why would be suggesting to the community in New South Wales and a more morally afoot, the time that Ozzy's actually gave each other a pat on the back, you know, like your parents never gave you But it doesn't stop there. You could be exercising a degree of care and caution with

Unknown Speaker 20:00

Whom you choose to kiss? What no more indiscriminately French kissing my mailman and my barrister on a daily basis. Sorry Corey normal kissy kissy for you the new self was fun police have ruled it out. But New South Wales health minister bread has odd says there's no need to be totally alarmed. Common Sense should prevail.

Unknown Speaker 20:19

It's not as if faces are constantly touching public spaces. Yeah, except for this passionate fellow in Iran. This man is one of several who've posted videos of themselves licking a famous shrine to prove it safe. Yeah, he was just looking at trying to see if it was safe from the coronavirus. He wasn't still high from Mardi Gras on the weekend or anything. Meanwhile, around the world the authorities are saying there's one simple way to protect yourself from coronavirus. Wash your hands so you got to do we all have to be washing our hands. The single most useful thing that we can all do is to wash our hands washing my hands. This is Sydney we haven't had a public toilet with soap in it since 1998. All right. How long should I

Unknown Speaker 21:00

wash my hands for two times Happy birthday. Keep scrubbing until you've sung the Happy Birthday song twice. You know that song your parents never sung you to get the hand marching message out the World Health Organisation has joined us social media platform, tik tok normally harm to lip synching videos and dance offs. Here's a clip from their first video frequently clean your hands using an alcohol based hand rub product like in jail or wash your hands with soap and water. Boring who you should add some rap music or some dancing at least.

Unknown Speaker 21:32

New coronavirus

Unknown Speaker 21:35

Yeah, I did a bit of a troll through the old tik tok means and it turns out there's already the perfect tik tok Corona virus meme template. It's this one for when the government tells you you have to self isolate for 14 days, but you can't because you've never had paid sick leave in your entire life. You know, I'd really like to do that. But I don't have any fucking money. I don't have any fucking money. And if this is making you feel doomed, maybe that's why

Unknown Speaker 22:00

Doing this as the virus spreads, so too does the panic buying bulk buying at supermarkets as shoppers stockpile food essentials and toiletries. Yes, everyone is panic buying because of the corona virus. Or at least that's what I said when I ran into a workmate who caught me buying 10 frozen pizzas and four blocks of chocolate last night. Yeah panic buying coronavirus got a stuck up, but there's no need to worry everyone while the Australian media keeps us up to date and well informed with this smartest and brightest coronavirus experts. Well for more on the coronavirus emergency we're joined by nationals and pay Barnaby Joyce.

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This is

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where we fight the news. So you don't have to

Over the last couple of years

Mark Humphries, Evan Williams and I have been writing a sitcom set in the world of conservative talkback radio. It’s not so much a workplace comedy but a story about ambition, and politics at the extremes.

With the support of Audible we made it into an 8-part sitcom for your ears (we only did the sound, the images are created by your own mind – it’s cheaper that way), beating all the odds for making long-form narrative comedy in Australia.

And check out this list of incredible performers:

Liv Hewson

Tony Martin

Anjali Rao

Gretel Killeen

Rupert Degas

Heather Mitchell

Marc Fennell

Bridie Connel

Robbie McGregor

Veronica Milsom

Rosie Waterland

Wendy Harmer

Jordan Raskopoulos

Clarke Richards

Ash Williams

Sandra Sully

Hugh Rimminton

Hamish Macdonald

Penny Greenhalgh

Anthony Salame

Indira Naidoo

Ben Fordham

Angela Lavoirpierre

.. plus a gazillion more including Mark Humphries and Dan Ilic (Me)

We had a wonderful script editor in David K. Barnes (Wooden Overcoats) and an epic restructure and rewrite from Kacie Anning (The Other Guy). We made it with the incredible audio studio Uncanny Valley under the diligent supervision of Matt Perrot who built out the complex soundscape.

It was a real thrill for us to make it, and a privilege to work with our heroes and friends to create something we’re very proud of.

You can listen to Riot Act here —It’s free if you’re an Audible subscriber — you can get a 30day free trial if you’re not — Riot Act is only 186 minutes so, you know, plenty of time to listen to it a few times, and leave a scathing review: https://www.audible.com.au/pd/Riot-Act-Audiobook/B081VGWJLG?qid=1575317103&sr=1-1&pf_rd_p=771c6463-05d7-4981-9b47-920dc34a70f1&pf_rd_r=H1WJX9FR94HJ36GAQR9H&ref=a_search_c3_lProduct_1_1

It has many of the voices and faces from the show telling stories about how it was put together and where most of the team is now.

"It’s been 10 years since the ABC TV show Hungry Beast was launched. In 2009 it brought together 20 young smart arses to create a new kind of new kind of TV show. One that was curious about the world, and didn’t take itself too seriously.

Join former Hungry Beast presenters and producers as they try to remember what happened. There’ll be stories, unseen footage, clips now banned from the internet, and anecdotes about the show that changed Australian TV forever.*

It’ll be just like Where Are They Now? — except that no one has ever asked that question.

Join, Nick Hayden, Veronica Milsom, Kirsten Drysdale, Marc Fennell, Dan Ilic, Mon Schafter, Kirk Docker, Andy Nehl and others who haven’t replied to the email yet.

Follow the money to your wallet and get a ticket to Hungry Beast Unplugged.

Head to newsfighters.com to check out the other episodes.

"In the fourth and final episode of our pilot week guest host Dan Ilic cherry picks at Energy Minister Angus Taylor’s appearance on Insiders this morning. Also ABC broadcaster and American political podcaster Josh Szeps drops by to talk Scott Morrison in Washington, the 2020 Democrat candidates and the most important issue on breakfast television. And finally we check in with our new finance reporter Rodney Todd."

Beaming to you from around Australia from Telecom Tower — this is A Rational Fear’s Mid-Winter Bore recorded live at The Street Theatre in Canberra.

A huge satire-thirsty crowd turned up for our first ever A Rational Fear from the capital. Hosted by Dan Ilic, the line-up is massive including: The Guardian’s Photographer at large Mike Bowers, Triple J Hack’s Shalailah Medhora, 730 Satirist Mark Humphries, and Triple J’s Lewis Hobba

It’s fast, it’s funny, it’s #insiders on crack.

00:00:00 Preamble - Dan in his hotel in Canberra

00:00:40 Start

00:05:50 Fearsome Fear #1: The Boats Are Back and the Tamil family.

00:11:56 Alan Jones on the Tamil family.

00:15:22 Fearsome Fear #2:Canberra misses out on the “most liveable city” top 10.

00:20:05 Tourists are asked “What is Canberra?”

00:22:05 Fearsome Fear #3: Pauline Hanson attempts to climb Uluru.

00:27:54 Mark Humphries: TV networks axing comedy shows.

00:37:58 Shalailah Medhora: Canberra isn’t the ‘Canberra bubble’.

00:46:38 The new exhibit at Questacon.

00:48:14 Mike Bowers: New Shows on Sky News.

00:50:20 Mike Bowers: Favourite photos. SLIDESHOW HERE

00:53:20 Lewis Hobba: Nine Network Fundraiser for Liberal Party

01:00:26 End.

🎟️ CANBERRA SHOW - SEPT 7 - THE STREET - ON SALE NOW