Art Chat Podcast

Episode 086 - Political Hangover

stephenLharlow@gmail.com (Stephen L Harlow) — Sun, 16 Jun 2013 19:34:02 PDT

Recorded: June 10, 2013

Participants: Steve Harlow, Jim "Jimmy The Peach" Aaron, Ruth Parson, Mary Burns, Emory Holmes II.

Audio

Video

Mary asks, "Why should I be on YouTube? I was just listening to Andrea Bocelli - The Pearl Fishers Duet. A fabulous duet! I can't compete with that! Why would I want to be on YouTube?

Andrea Bocelli & Bryn Terfel sing the Pearl Fishers duet from Les Pecheurs de perles.

Steve asks if others have a hangover from the art and politics discussion last week?

Jim liked the title "Art is Political, Ideology is Boring."

Steve asks, "How intentional can art be and still be good?" "If you know what you want a piece of art to say, and you make it say that, is it still art?" Or is it a polemic or an illustration, something less than Art?

Emory tries to clarify - if you allow the piece to suggest alternatives, and you follow them, it's art, otherwise, not.

ePub Kindle gutenberg.org

Mary says when you are writing a novel and you have an agenda, it can take over the story and make it more like propaganda, less like literature. If you read the books from the beginning of last century, like Upton Sinclair's "The Jungle," - that was just a rant put into the form of a story involving characters - characters invented to fit the propaganda. The value of that comes from what it achieved as a piece of propaganda, not its value as literature.

Steve says there's two critical standards: one is what activism results from a piece of propaganda; the other what's valued as an art. Or since art is communication, should it all be judged by the same standard? Like, since art is communication and politics is communication, is all political?

Emory looking at political posters from early last Century, many of them quite stuffy, but some, because of the gifts of the artist, have formal qualities making it possible to appreciate them aside from their polemical moment.

Mary adds that once the issues they address pass into irrelevancy, the posters may be judged on their aesthetic qualities.

Jim says it's an intellectual issue, we would need to agree on definitions of terms.

Ruth asks if there is a difference between fine art and commercial art? Is commercial art the same as political art? Toulouse Lautrec did a fine job of advertising that is accepted as fine art.

Toulouse Lautrec Moulin Rouge: La Goulue

Emory asks how Mary places "Dialogues of the Carmelites?"

Mary says that is fine art. It came so long after the (French) Revolution that the piece used the setting of revolutionary times to tell individual stories about courage, faith, and etc.

If it been performed at the time, it would have had a political effect, but it was composed in the 1950s.

Emory that suggests that time has a transformative effect on artwork. The example of Goya, again, in the "The Third of May 1808." Goya was not separated by time from the events he depicts, but we are. We have to learn who these figures are in the painting. But even with out knowing that, it is a remarkable work of art.

Steve says Allan's point last week was that Goya was making a personal expression. "Sure it's personal," Steve continues, "but it seems to have a political purpose."

Mary says it serves a historical purpose, allowing us to understand the times. Like "The Jungle," it serves a historical purpose, but is not a great novel. As E.E. Cummings said, "a poem should not mean, but be."

The Third of May 1808 | Francisco Goya

Steve wants to know if there really is a big difference between art and polemic - if there is a difference, which one is better?

Ruth asks if art is political because of the intent of the artist or because of the response of the viewer?

Crime and Punishment
by Fyodor Dostoyevsky

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Emory says he can see both of those forces: one where the artist has an agenda and formulates that art to fit; the other where the artist is open to any eventuality the artwork suggests; as in the work of Dostoevsky. He was an epic jerk, a vulgar, reprehensible personality. In his sentences there is a tension between the artwork wanting to be a fresh voice and his attempts to polemicize the lines into something he wants the reader to sign onto. His hate for various groups is always on display. At the same time there is a clumsiness which is charming and powerful. He sees this in "Crime and Punishment" the great exploration of the mind of a killer, who wants to kill as proof of his superiority over people he thinks are worthless. The brilliance of the writing pulls you through a landscape of side comments filled with darkness, which Emory connects to Dostoevsky's own failures as a human being.

Emory says the first time he read Dostoevsky, he opened "Crime and Punishment" to a passage about a merchant beating a mule. The writing was so clear and powerful, he closed the book to protect himself from it. He didn't read Dostoevsky again for years. The same thing happened to him with Nietzsche. He felt Nietzsche was far too heavy for his fragile mind. He didn't read them until he had gained some intellectual muscularity that protected him from those paragraphs.

Now he's ready to read those writers who despise him or people like him. Emory says he aways feels, while reading Nietzsche, that Nietzsche has a gun to Emory's head and if Emory misreads, Nietzsche will blow Emory's head off. Nietzsche's aphorism applies, "that which does not kill me, makes me stronger."

Emory feels that these writers have done so much damage with their ideas when they are not making art, to people he cares about, that Emory wants to drink their poison and be able to get up and slap them across their face.

Steve wonders if that is a good idea. He thinks what doesn't kill you leaves you weakened. He thinks there's too much acceptance in our culture of gain through pain. He thinks pain is damaging.

Emory says there are historical examples of populations decimated by plague or other terrible diseases where the few survivors have developed resistance to the disease, therefore are stronger.

Mary says there are examples in nature, like cutting back growth on a tree to make it stronger.

Emory says as a writer without a word limit may write on and on, but when an editor imposes a limit, the writer can cut back their story to fit within the boundary and this editing can make the story stronger.

Mary agrees and says blog writing is good practice for that.

Steve says Twitter would be even better then.

Mary says Twitter is daunting. You have to get a whole set of Twitter contacts. [Little Bird]

Steve says Twitter, like any Social Media, needs to be built up, like a garden, if you tend it, it grows.

Limitations in Art are like "liberating discipline," as they say about Yoga.

Steve says he learned from his Yoga teacher to stop if you feel pain. Pain is damaging.

Jim says there are physical disciplines which require "working through" pain - such as Triathletes.

He doesn't think runners experience "runner's high" the first time, it is through great effort and focus that they get through the pain to experience the high.

To play a musical instrument requires to play beyond the pain. Dancers have a relationship with pain that leads to "satori" or a break-through.

In the ideal world, Steve asks, would we want to be watching sports where people are being damaged? Or art, like ballet, where people are being damaged.

Emory asks what about Steve and Ruth staying up on full-moon nights to paint when they'd rather be sleeping?

Steve says they'd rather be up, that's why they are up. They don't try to experience pain, they take care of themselves, eat well, sleep a lot, exercise.

What happens if you don't ride your bicycles for a while? Jim asks.

Ruth says, "it's our transportation, we don't not ride them for a while."

Mary asks if they have convinced Steve.

Steve says he's against Ballet and (American) Football and Boxing. Not just for the players, but for us the audience - it's not good, spiritually, for us to watch people being damaged.

Emory says one of the fundamental qualities of human's is a delight in cruelty.

Steve snaps, "that's Nietzsche, again! Can't Nietzsche just be wrong?"

Mary says Nietzsche is a curiosity. Someone with that darkened view - you don't have to like him, but be curious about him.

Mary would rather go along with the Dalai Lama. If you follow Buddhism to its conclusion, then cruelty has no more significance than kindness - it's all an illusion.

On the other hand, Buddhism suggests right ways of living - kindness is valued there.

Ruth reports on Jon Katz, who writes about dogs. He has made a living writing, very popular among dog lovers, now unable to publish the traditional way, he's embraced social media, blogging and podcasting. She's interested in the ways he handling his writing. He's requesting a paid subscription to his blog.

She suggests reading the last month of his blog where he explains how he's changing his thoughts on publication.

Caffe Trieste, 601 Vallejo St., San Francisco.

Mary is interested in Steve's statement she read in last episode's show-notes, that he thought Art Chat Podcast was a social media failure because it hasn't developed conversations with others outside the podcast.

While it is a concern of his, this week, @artchatpodcast did get a response from @judehere, Judy Golden on whether or not Goya was a political artist.

Trieste a couple of years back. Here's the exchange:

Goya transcends politics, he was making personal statements, reactions to war and brutality he saw around him | Ep.85 http://t.co/sZXbHjGLGt
— Art Chat Podcast (@ArtChatPodcast) June 10, 2013

@ArtChatPodcast Goya was vehemently against war and there is one painting I saw @MOMA that showed that so well
— Judy Golden (@judehere) June 10, 2013

@judehere yes. We disagree in the chat on whether Goya's anti-war paintings are political or personal. Definitions. Art or polemic?
— Art Chat Podcast (@ArtChatPodcast) June 10, 2013

@ArtChatPodcast Read about Goya's series Disasters of War ...
— Judy Golden (@judehere) June 11, 2013

@ArtChatPodcast I remember about 7 years ago at MOMA a Goya painting that was an anti war statement and yet that is not all that he painted
— Judy Golden (@judehere) June 11, 2013

@judehere Emory says Goya was political in all his works. Even as a court painter. He painted so honestly, he showed the royals as buffoons.
— Art Chat Podcast (@ArtChatPodcast) June 11, 2013

Mary says she has been thinking about the issue of social media success - if it's fun for us to put out the podcast, shownotes, and tweets, does it really matter if anyone respond? It's beneficial for us. So many people putting things on the web, how many people go to the web to read or listen? It seems to her that there are more creators than consumers.

Steve says some do. He spends upwards to ten hours per day reading and (mostly) listening to web delivered content. The web does for him, what a newspaper and radio used to.

Mary says there may be more response to the podcast if it was more provocative. Emory's analysis of Dostoevsky put into a statement, "Dostoevsky was a bigot" - put that in a tweet, see what you get.

Mary says she's enjoying going back to the books she first read when she was young. To re-read them now, with more maturity.

When Steve knew Mary in the late '60s, she was always reading.

Mary says, that is a long time ago. She forgets what she read, although she thinks it's probably in her memory somewhere.

Emory says he hardly read at all, when he was young. He couldn't make himself sit still enough to read. He read passages from many books. His reading was slow and labored. By the age of twenty-five, he had only read about twenty-five books, but they were heavy reading books, like Homer, James Joyce, Proust.

Emory says since he finished his novel [Yip's Last Case] he's been thinking of all the authors he's known and loved who did not see their work published, like Kafka. He feels he has a responsibility to his progeny, his own sense of worth, to experiment, to write at the highest level he can, expecting, at some point, the works will be read, and appreciated. He will push to have them published, but produce them even if they do not get published.

Mary agrees, and reminds Emory of the self-publishing option, which she is doing with "Shinny's Girls, The Trilogy". For her, the bottom line is that her books are available, in case someone wants to read them.

"Exactly," Emory says.

Mary says, "the web provides that opportunity."

She will submit to publishers the manuscript for her historical novel, "Presto!" It is a different world out there, so who knows? She does not want to think of Emory stopping writing.

Emory is quick to say that won't happen. He has been involved with other people's writing this month. After that, he'll be back at it. "If I end up with a pile of unpublished manuscripts, I want to be the highest quality I can achieve."

Steve says painters have it easy. He can fall back to thinking as Julian Schnabel had his character in "Basquiat" say to Basquiat, "your audience hasn't been born yet."

Julian Schnabel

Jean Michel Basquiat

Steve just wants to keep his painting out of the dumpster.

Jim says, "the famous Russ Martin dumpster."

Jim has a lot of hand-written things from thirty years ago, but feels he's more fleeting about any work. His goal is to be the best instrument that he can be. He jokes, "I've trained for this all my life. I haven't slept right, I haven't eaten right, I've hung out with the wrong people, I've trained for this. I want to be the best instrument I can be. To me, the most important thing about my work, is that it be authentic, whether it's temporary or permanent - there's no such thing as permanence."

Mary asks if libraries in the States collect the works of writers?

Jim says yes, mentions The Library of Congress.

Ruth asks how you get in the LOC?

Steve says you submit your book to them.

Mary likes Jim's desire to be the best instrument he can be.

Jim says like being the best tool for the job, he thinks he's best used for the job he was designed for.

Episode 085 - Art is Political, Ideology is Boring

stephenLharlow@gmail.com (Stephen L Harlow) — Mon, 10 Jun 2013 11:43:03 PDT

Recorded: June 3, 2013

Participants: Steve Harlow, Jim "Jimmy The Peach" Aaron, Ruth Parson, Allan Ludwig, Emory Holmes II, Ferrie Differentieel, David King,.

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Steve suggests that the recording for the podcast switch to Google Plus Hangouts next week.

A discussion about the difficulty of remembering passwords led to Steve recommending Last Pass.

Emory wanted to know why we stopped using Hangouts last time, Steve said it was because the weaker computers on the call didn't handle Hangouts as well as they did Skype. It may be different now, Hangouts have been optimized more since the last try.

Ferrie introduces the rousing music he produced for Jim's humorous mix of clips he found in Episode 84.

Can You hear Me - It's not you - art - chat - podcast - Rossini.

Ferrie said he had to fire the first choir for singing false notes. The second choir he "rented" sang true.

Steve proposed a 24 hour Hangout in September to celebrate the 100th ACP episode. He thinks the regulars can take shifts in the hangout and people referenced in the first 99 episodes be encouraged to join, if not live, then represented in the hangout recording, readings, or reports.

Mary Fuller sent Emory a exhibition catalogue for a NYC show this summer, featuring paintings by her late husband, Robert McChesney.

Cameron Gray has a show this summer in NYC, also.

Untitled by Mary Fuller, Bronze

Cameron Gray / I Was Made For Dancin', All, All, All Night Long

Steve says so far, Art Chat Podcast has been a Social Media failure because no conversation has been developed between it and the listeners and readers.

Emory says he thinks the listeners and readers find the statements made and opinions expressed in the Art Chat are so authoritative the listeners and readers are afraid to interact.

Steve thinks many in the audience have opinions or information on issues discussed in the Art Chat.

Jim remembers the student protest in Canada and notes the recent world wide Monsanto protest was started with a Facebook page.

Allan says he started reading, "The World According to Monsanto" - all the dubious things they've been involved in over the years, including Agent Orange in the American-Vietnam war. Allan got a terrible stomach ache and stopped reading it.

Ferrie reports Monsanto is retreating from Europe because of public protest.

Steve hopes Americans can get rid of them, too.

David says Monsanto has contracted with Blackwater to monitor the activism.

Ferrie says watch what happens in Turkey.

Water Cannon and Tear Gas used on Ɗstiklâl Caddesi near Taksim Square - Gezi Park, Ɗstanbul - Alan Hilditch

Jim saw Kanye West on Saturday Night Live. He liked the graphics behind the band and thought the production was beyond SNL.

Jim was able to forget what he knew about Kanye's overactive ego and enjoy the music. Jim says if a camera followed him around, he would not appear smart, either.

Jim said Dick Whyte from New Zealand had posted the Kanye SNL performance with a review that analyzed the politics of it in detail - Jim felt was over thinking the music.

Jim asks, have you ever thought all art was political? Do you now?

Allan says he's never thought art was or should be political. Overtly political art he's seen has been esthetically mediocre. The only art that came out of Communism was film by Eisenstein, but when they began to understand what he was doing, they tried to shut him down. In this country, Ben Shahn Allan finds mediocre.

What about Goya? Emory asks.

Ferdinand VII of Spain (1814) by Goya

Allan says Goya transcends politics, he was making personal statements, reactions to war and brutality he saw around him.

Emory thinks Goya was profoundly political in all his aspects. Even his work as a court painter, making portraits of royal family, he was so honest, he depicted them as buffoons. They were so egotistical, they saw them selves being flattered by Goya who was smacking them in the face.

Any artist is conveying something about the human condition in every work, Beethoven's symphony, Eroica, where he starts out with what is basically a love poem to Napoleon, then he finds out Napoleon's an asshole, he changes the title but not the music.

"Even though I'm not a political person," Emory continues, "I couldn't get away from politics while writing my latest project (fiction novel, 'Yip's Last Case'), there was politics at every turn, I had to think about the politics of every interaction, I had to struggle with that, I had confront that this is a political situation whether I wanted it to be or not."

Steve says it's hard to separate politics from culture. Politics is there.

Emory says Steve's series on the workplace ("Work Ethic") is a delineation of the settings working people are in everyday and that's political, whether or not that's Steve's intent.

Steve agrees.

Jim asks David what part did politics play in his creation of the many plays he's written.

David says one of his plays, "Backyard Beguine," written about America's involvement in Central America during the Reagan era, turned out to be one of the funniest plays he's written.

Sometimes political art can be effective by moving it beyond politics into absurdity. He thinks absurdity is the most cogent method to address political issues. He prefers to deal with politics obliquely.

Emory says that idea has merit. In the play, "Red," Rothko explains that he accepted the commission to make paintings for Four Seasons Restaurant in the just built Seagram Building because he wanted his work to cause the rich people to get sick and not be able to eat their meals.

The paintings don't look "political," out of their intended context, but the artist had made a calculation that the paintings' spiritual high-mindedness would choke the low-minded, money grubbing rich who ate there.

Steve thinks Rothko was overestimating the power of his work.

Jim says Allan doesn't see politics in art, but he's photographing graffiti - what could be more political?

Graffiti In Lower Manhattan. Ske. Guess. - Allan Ludwig (Elisha Cook Jr.)

Allan answers that while he sees deep political overtones in graffiti and street art, it doesn't represent an organized political ideology, each piece represents an artist's individual feeling.

He thinks of political art as only art inspired by an existing ideology. Like Ben Shawn(?).

Jim suggest Diego Rivera.

"Political" has many levels of meaning, Allan says, he has spoken about this with many graffiti writers and street artists - it's rebellious, of course, it's illegal, but, each artist's work is rebellious in individual ways. That differentiates it from the kind of ideology found in the Tea Party, for example.

Emory says Baudelaire made a more indirect political attack. He had mastered the techniques of classical poetry so that his poems were elegant and authoritative, but he poured into them vulgar and reprehensible ideas. His title, "Fleurs du mal" indicates they are an attack on the bourgeois notions of love and beauty. The poems do not motivate readers to a take a particular political action, but the readers feel an attack on comfortable middle class standards.

Allan said when he mentioned political art, he meant art that was ideologically driven, a polemic, and art that may also be subsidized by various groups. That is not what Baudelaire did, or Goya, and it's not what graffitist are doing. They are expressing their feelings as individuals. Feelings are not the same as ideologies.

Campaign poster - Shepard Fairey

Ruth wonders about political posters. Did Obama win because of that Shepard Fairey "Hope" poster? She thinks he did.

Monsanto, Genetic Pollution and Monopolism

Tea Party: Obama is Hitler

She's looking now at the anti-Monsanto poster art - powerful stuff, she says. "If we're not making political art, we should think about it,"

How about Tea Party art, Allan asks?

David says all they did was put a Hitler mustache on a picture of Obama.

Ferrie suggest looking at this subject from a different direction. When you make a piece of art, it is stamp in time. The influence can be very large.

Like the song, "Ohio" by CSN&Y.

David suggest that (American anti-Vietnam war protest) revolution had a playlist which was effective at rallying people.

Steve suggests that Arabic Hip Hop is currently rallying people to action in Arab countries.

Ferrie thinks similar political music in Africa is having an effect.

Emory thinks politics boiled down to it's essence is one person relating to another. That's the content of most artistic expression. This is why he thinks all art is political. When Van Gogh painted a view of his humble bedroom it's political.

The Bedroom, 1889 - Vincent van Gogh

Steve says when he was an art student and trying to reconcile his painting and his political activism, he tried getting guidance by reading Marcuse, whose writings on politics and art was recommended to him by the most politically active people he knew. He gave up reading it, because he felt Marcuse and the activists didn't understand what art was. They seemed to equate the subject represented in the art with the meaning of the art. He thought that view was ignorant.

Allan tells a funny story about politicians and art: when Calvin Coolidge was the US President, he was asked by a consortium of European leaders to help organize American visual artists for a big international exhibition. Coolidge said, "I'd like to do that, but we don't have any of those over here."

Nixon promoted the National Endowment for the Arts because, "all the Jews and Left-Wingers like that stuff" and he wanted to shut them up for a while. The NEA collapsed upon itself, so now, it only gives to institutions and basket weavers in old age home drooling.

Emory suggests they may need the baskets to catch the drool.

Episode 084 - imMemorial

stephenLharlow@gmail.com (Stephen L Harlow) — Fri, 07 Jun 2013 17:24:05 PDT

Recorded: May 27, 2013

Participants: Steve Harlow, Jim "Jimmy The Peach" Aaron, Ruth Parson, Mary Burns, Allan Ludwig, Emory Holmes II, Ferrie Differentieel.

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"No one's on vacation because of Memorial Day, especially not us Canadians and Dutch," Mary says.

Canadians have Victoria Day, last weekend, in honor of their former Queen Victoria, David and Mary supply some detail; the fact that she is Canadian's favorite Queen reflects their Victorian values; Toronto makes a big deal out of it, with fireworks, etc.; Winnipeg doesn't do much for it; Vancouver doesn't recognize it, at all.

"Victoria does a lot for it," Mary adds.

Memorial Day in the U.S. is about remembering those who died in war.

Jim lives across the river from the National Cemetery.

Emory notes that it was General Robert E. Lee's home, previously.

Jim says Lee's house still stands on the hill.

All's asks why Lee's home was taken by the Federal Government.

Jim answers, because he was a traitor to the Constitution.

Allan thought there was to be no reparations after the Civil War.

Jim assures there were.

Lee, himself, is not buried there.

Steve says while we are remembering war dead, we need to remember the civilian deaths and the protesters who tried to stop their governments from entering war.

Ruby Keeler

Emory says his friend, Basil Langston, an actor, was a Conscientious Objector in London during WWII. He knew Man Ray and was in that circle of wonderful artists. A great theatre guy, started theatre groups there in London and here when he relocated to Los Angeles. He used to have a wonderful party every year. At one of his parties, Emory met Ruby Keller, who was looking gorgeous like she was 20 years old. This was about 15 years ago. His catered parties were places where artists had remarkable exchanges like we may imagine the salons in Paris after WWI may have been. The party was at his small apartment in a building where elder actors had rent controlled apartments. They referred to director, Richard Attenborough as "Dickie."

Mary says we could celebrate the 100th Anniversary of the "Rite of Spring."

Stravinsky : Le sacre du printemps (par Nijinsky)

Igor Stravinsky

She had heard on French language radio several different versions of "Le Sacre du printemps." When Mary was in Junior College in Illinois, She took a Music Appreciation class from Dr. Delmore with many jocks taking it for an easy credit. He played "Le Sacre du printemps" loud, without introduction. His facial expression changed with every note, he knew and loved the music well. His obvious love for music inspired Mary on a life long exploration of Classical Music. He showed her what it was to be a good teacher. You need to believe in what you're teaching.

Emory says it is a rare and wonderful thing to encounter a teacher so immersed in their passion that the love for it is communicated to the students.

Nijinsky

Ferrie says he was told by a player in the Rotterdam Philharmonic Orchestra that Stravinsky used very unusual orchestration in the piece, for example, the first violins play as a rhythm section, the violas play the role of the first violins.

Emory asks if the first performance caused a riot.

Ferrie says absolutely people left the hall in protest and there was a lot of shouting at Stravinsky that he had created rubbish.

David says there were some at that performance who applauded it, the majority were offended by it.

The choreography by Nijinsky was as offensive as the music.

Picasso did sets and costume for other "The Ballets Russes"

Steve also first heard it in a Music Appreciation class and his favorite hearing of it was when he played it for his teenage son and the guitar player for his son's Heavy Metal band. After listening to Megadeath and Metallica, he put Le Sacre du printemps on, saying to them, here's the roots to your music. They got it, they thought it was intense and "crunchy" enough.

Mary asked if it inspired them in any way. Steve is not sure, but, Ruth thinks they were, their music at it's must developed was rich, full, and classically based.

"Stravinsky meets Metallica," Steve says.

Allan says the period in which Le Sacre du printemps appeared was a period of great excitement in the arts. Today it would be difficult to offend an arts audience. Except for the "far right" who fain offense for political reasons, people don't care enough about the arts to take offense over anything.

Megadeath - Symphony of Destruction

Metallica - Master of Puppets (S&M)

There is a push among major universities to put their classes online, "where there is no real interaction", Allan says. He wonders if we are not losing something by having the Internet intercede between the professor and the student. He read an article dying that some classes have 100,000 students in them and paying for them.

Mary says that's why the universities do it, to make money. It seems to her that much of the student-teacher interaction is lost.

Steve says, "not necessarily." The online Advanced Social Media course he took online from University of San Francisco was not impersonal. There was the ability to text or voice talk with the teacher and the other students anytime during the week. We had our reading and projects to do. We met once per week in a video conference classroom where the teacher led a discussion. We could raise our hand and when called on, ask a question or speak to the class. Steve thinks rather than bemoaning the loss of personnel interaction, we could be glad that more people are getting education.

David saw "Dialogues of the Carmelites" in Toronto. Written and composed by Francis Poulenc, in French, the opera subject is the killing of all the nuns in a convent after the French Revolution. He thought the staging was very effective and it was an emotionally powerful production. The opera house in Toronto is beautiful. David is very impressed by Toronto.

Steve said all through the Twentieth Century, artists pushed the boundaries until it seems everything that could be was done. Art audiences have seen it all, by now. There should be no surprising them.

Mary is cynical about the value of teaching in super large Internet classes. She thinks it depends on the commitment of the Professor.

Steve thinks it depends on the student. A good student can get a lot out of a class run by a bum teacher, he says.

He thinks Internet classes is a better system for distributing education and that physical college campuses should shut down.

Ferrie says in the past few months he's noticed a dramatic change among people who frequently use Social Media. There has been a decrease in interaction on Facebook and Twitter. There is shift to Google Plus.

Steve says he, personally, have been spending less time reading posts, although he's still putting up things.

Ferrie has noticed changes in behavior. A half a year ago you could start a conversation with someone you haven't met before, it was possible to talk to all kinds of people, all over the world. In the last several weeks, he's not been able to get a discussion up and running. Social Media is not so social anymore. There are a lot more commercial messages and he thinks that creates a barrier to social interaction.

Steve thinks Google Plus offers the best chance for a decent Social Media experience today.

Ferrie agrees - G+ is clean, without advertising. As long as it lasts.

Steve thinks there's a good chance G+ can last this way for a long time, since Google doesn't have to advertise there, it's so much to their benefit to absorb our chatter. Plus may not get overrun by marketers.

Allan asks what benefit do they get from us talking?

Steve says they are learning how to be human. He says Google's network is an Artificial Intelligence system and we are getting close to the point where Google becomes sentient. They are working towards being an intelligence, like a person, in your life to respond to you, understand your context, supply appropriate tools, anticipate your needs.

One of the first new services Steve thinks would come from a sentient Google would be psychological services.

"Like for mental illness?" Emory asks.

Steve says the service would be for mental health, having someone to confide in and to get sound advice.

Philip K. Dick envisioned robo taxi drivers providing psychological services and briefcase psychologist...

Allan asks Steve to comment on McNally Jackson Books instructions for preparing a digital manuscript file that the Espresso Book Machine machine can publish as a paperback book.

Steve says the manuscript needs to be put into .pdf format and laid out specifically for the machine. It seems similar to the set up you need to publish at Lulu.

Jim says there's templates available.

Self-publishing authors would find lower per copy costs by printing and binding in larger runs of at least 100 books at a time. But the EBM's advantage is no book needs to be printed until there is a purchasing customer - the same for Lulu and Blurb.

Allan finds it insurmountable to get his manuscript into a viable format to be published.

Jim suggest that Allan make a personal connection with someone who works at the book store to walk him through the process or find someone who can help him make the PDF.

Mary suggests kids and grand kids.

Steve suggests it is a job opportunity for young people, to be PDF book designers for older self-publishing authors.

Mary says it is bewildering, she's in the middle of the self-publishing process and it is bewildering to have to make all the necessary decisions.

Period of Exploration - Mary Fuller McChesney - photo: Ruth Parson

Steve shows Mary Fuller McChesney's book, "Period of Exploration" about San Francisco artists 1945 - 1950. Made from interview with the students and teachers of the California School of Fine Arts , known as the San Francisco School, or simply, "The School."

Steve says it is exciting to him to read what these artists say because when he was growing up in Los Angeles in the 1950's and demonstrated interest in painting, he heard about artists up in San Francisco doing exciting things.

At that time artists didn't stay in Los Angeles. Later, in the '60s artists began to stay in L.A. and make their careers.

For Steve, the art was happening in San Francisco. He's excited now to have this book about all those San Francisco artists, written by one of them, Mary Fuller.

Emory says she's made a series of new sculpture, some remarkable bronzes and expects to show them this July up at her place on Sonoma Mountain.

Episode 083 - The Odious Fruitcake

stephenLharlow@gmail.com (Stephen L Harlow) — Tue, 04 Jun 2013 08:53:07 PDT

Recorded: May 20, 2013

Participants: Steve Harlow, Jim "Jimmy The Peach" Aaron, Ruth Parson, Mary Burns, Allan Ludwig, Emory Holmes II.

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Steve says he is expecting Ferrie (differentieel) to join and have something to say about recent social media behavior.

Jim thinks it will be about rudeness.

Allan says there has been rudeness on the Internet since he joined (2006).

Steve remembers "flame wars" on email discussion lists in the '90s.

Jim said at a job he had, he made up a character, "Mr. Bitterman," to have rude customer service calls forwarded to. As Mr. Bitterman, he would take the calls with preemptive aggression in his voice.

Fighting fire with fire, Mary suggests.

One day, Jim's boss had him make an outgoing "Mr. Bitterman" call for him - "satisfying," Jim says.

Steve says, the tone of early Internet exchanges was often like YouTube comments are today.

Mary doesn't think she interacts much on sites were there are comments.

Suburbs of the Arctic Circle - Mary Burns

A howling on the line reminds Mary of radio plays she wrote for the CBC, adapted from her short stories set in the Yukon. Suburbs of the Arctic Circle, the used wind howling effects throughout the play, even when the action was indoors. The plays were broadcast in the '90s, the stories had been published in '86.

Mary asked what Allan thought of the first chapter of Emory's novel, "Yip's Last Case."

Allan says it was very good, you are expecting Yip to rise, as a phoenix, he can't sit around in bed all day.

Steve said he thinks he is recoiled, readying for a strike.

Emory said as he was rewriting the text he became more fascinated by aging. He likes the man of action suffering forgetfulness. Someone used to being effective, forgetting what he should be doing and where he should be was the metaphor he wanted to use to explore a mind in decline. At a certain point, something occurs that rekindles his focus. He thinks he's back, but things keep happening that erode his ability.

Mary think it is a very good description of a guy in a depressed state. The setup for action is embedded. We are curious about the killing of the boys and we know Halloween is coming. It seems to be more of a character study than it was in the first draft. She likes Cecilia-Antigonita, thinks Emory is good with names and likes the line "the rain through the heart of the stone."

Emory says Yip begins to realize that the actions he judges to be good are not considered good by anyone else. He has a revelation that we cannot judge our actions as good or evil.

When reading it aloud for the recording, he was misreading it. He thought that was consistent with the theme. Imperfect, flawed. He and Yip striving to do the best they can do.

This effort has encouraged Emory to take up the many stories in his mind's queue. To push through what we see on the surface to see the other side. That is why the actions are so quirky, the thoughts so nutty - these people are nuts, their fantasies have such authority, it's their abhorrent authority. That's not something the reader has to participate in, just observe. The two main characters of the novel have mangled views of the world.

Trent's Last Case

by E. C. Bentley

Download Free eBook

Emory says he attempted to make a satire of Noir, the title "Yip's Last Case," is a homage to a great detective novel written around the end of the 19th Century, "Trent's Last Case."

Steve asks, "No reference to Krapp's Last Tape?

No. Emory assures. "I tried to line all the troupes of Noir and stuff them all into this piece." "Like some kind of fruitcake that everyone finds so odious," he concludes.

Steve says he wished the Intellectual Property ownership issues were not as complicated as they are - he'd like to publish Emory's reading of each chapter one at a time at a time, through the whole book.

Emory said his response from publishers so far is that they are appalled that he would write a book with 90% people of color, set in Pacoima - they say, "What kind of story is that? How dare you!"

When Emory wrote the short story this novel is based on was a response to a request from a wonderful publisher in Brooklyn, Akashic Books, to write a murder story that takes place in the Los Angeles area for an anthology they wanted to publish, called "Los Angeles Noir." Emory told them he'd write about a murder in the L.A. suburb, Pacoima, where he lives. They said they never heard of Pacoima and would he please set the murder in South Los Angeles. He compromised and had two murders, one in South L.A. and one in Pacoima.

Mary says when she did some readings in Quebec, last winter, reading for practice, she'd find lot's of things to edit in her published work.

Emory says it's shocking to find new musicalities in the work that he hadn't found before.

Mary reports that writer, Alistair MacLeod, who writes about Cape Breton Island, reads his work with the rhythms of his sentences are like the sea - hypnotic.

Mary asks Jim if he uses reading out loud to alter his Haiku?

Yes, Jim says he does. "Even though there's so few words, the voice adds punctuation. "Seeing it and saying it, you get different rhythms," he says.

Jim speaks each Haiku twice at a reading. Mary thinks that would be helpful.

Russo Dumpster On Rivington Street In Lower Manhattan - Allan Ludwig (Elisha Cook Jr.)

Steve asks Allan what he's been finding to photograph on the streets of Manhattan.

"I found a dead baby bird," Allan goes on to say he photographed dumpsters to pay homage to the "The Dreaded Russ Martin Dumpster" He wants to shot a whole set of NYC dumpsters. He's been shooting graffitied delivery trucks, which are hard to catch - he's not so fast anymore.

Graffiti Truck In Lower Manhattan. Kwaz - Allan Ludwig (Elisha Cook Jr.)

"If you're really lucky, you'll find one parked where you can shoot all four sides," Allan says.

He thinks he'll start a new series related to street art and the various objects he finds on the street.

He has a set of locks. Street artists actually put art on the locks. There's a wall where people are putting up locks. Some are Valentine locks, "Alice loves Butch, etc. in a big heart on the locks." It started in Paris, the love locks on a bridge.

Steve thinks the listeners (and readers) could look for love locks in their towns.

Mary says in Vancouver on the Burrard Bridge.

Mary said she heard a CBC radio documentary on McNally Jackson Books, "do you know that bookstore, Allan?" She asks.

Allan says it's just across the street.

Steve said that's where he met Allan in person for the first time, at a signing event for James and Karla Murray's "Burning New York."

The point of the story, Mary said is that this Canadian woman defied the odds and created a successful independent book store in the era of online book buying. indicating that a return to local book stores and self-publishing fits with local food preferences and attraction to unique community for events.

Allan says when the owner-operator of opened the store, independent book stores in NYC were closing. She has signings and book talks once or twice a week with long lines of people wanting to get in. She has very good art and photography books, the latest ones, even before they are reviewed. She really knows what she's doing. Allan doesn't know what magic has made this possible for her, but the store is crowded all the time.

Mary says she seems to have had a clear vision of what she wanted and stuck to it - with some family money, that helped.

Emory says vision and commitment is so critical to what all of us are doing. To move ahead despite what others are saying about it.

Emory says he was thrilled to be in Steve and Ruth's studio this week end to see the work that will be displayed in museums filling up the space, leaning against the walls.

Ruth says she saw the woman's commitment to building a living community around her store as essential for her success. Building a destination spot where people want to meet is a critical element of the bookstore's success.

Steve says he sees the bookstore's success compared to Barnes & Nobel failure in the area as similar to the Internet's niche market possibilities compared to mass marketing. The Internet is big, but it's made up of a bunch of narrow niche interest communities. This is what the Internet has brought for us artists - the ability to reach people in the niche that we want to participate in, without going through a mass market filter.

Allan adds that the store has an area where people can have coffee, a sweet, and meet up. She has a EBM machine that publishes a bound book from digital files.

EBM Version 2.0

Steve notes that Cory Doctorow made a tour of stores that have that machine. Made a edition of one of his books especially for publishing in one of those machines. He'd sign customer's books published by it.

Allan says he thinks he'll publish that way a long essay he wrote on the changes in his neighborhood.

Emory asks if Allan will include some of his photographs with the text.

Allan says he's not sure, but since his writing is broken into stories, it seems appropriate for each story to have a photograph.

Mary found it would cost about $1500 to make a hundred copies of her 600 page trilogy thru Lulu.

Steve explains that when using print on demand service, like Lulu, no one puts out money expect the book buyer. Nothing is printed until payment is made. One copy at a time, pay in advance, print to order.

Regarding high price books, Steve says he and Ruth just bought a copy of Mary Fuller's out- of-print book on the early days of the San Francisco Abstract Expressionist school painting, The Period of Exploration, for $93.

In the shownotes for a previous chat is embedded a "Readlist" where you can download an eBook of collected articles about Mary Fuller McChesney. The last piece in that book is a transcription of a recorded interview with her. She speaks about the '40s and '50s and the artists around the San Francisco School. The attitudes of the artists and their personalities make fascinating reading. Steve and Ruth wanted to read her formal history of the period.

Emory says Mary Fuller is updating that book.

Episode 082 - Retelling Stories

stephenLharlow@gmail.com (Stephen L Harlow) — Fri, 24 May 2013 15:52:51 PDT

Recorded: May 13, 2013

Participants: Steve Harlow, Jim "Jimmy The Peach" Aaron, Ruth Parson, Mary Burns, Allan Ludwig, Emory Holmes II, Ferrie Differentieel.

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Ferrie says they're having a lovely time (in Netherlands) with their new King and Queen.

Mary says in Canada they have mixed feelings about Kings and Queens.

Mary congratulates Emory in finishing his novel.

Emory says he just finished reading it, Steve asks, "How was it?" "All right," Emory answers.

Yip's Last Case, Chapter 1

Emory says he'll send it out, see if he gets publisher interest.

He says he's thinking of this self-publishing thing. "All the cool kids are doing it," Steve says.

"I might try that on the next project," Emory says this one, "I'll try to this one ("Yip's Last Case") get conventionally published."

Mary asks Emory, after this crime novel, what is the next project?

Emory say he thinks it will be a screenplay and hasn't decided if it will be fictionalized or documentary on the period in the '70s when he edited Players magazine. Stanley Crouch, the now famous jazz critic was their jazz guy and many wonderful artists came through, many great writers got print through these really low-life publishers.

The experience was exhilarating to work in that milieu.

(Emory has told some stories about editing Players and working for Holloway House in previous episodes: Episode 035, Episode 037, and Episode 058.)

Many talented people working for very little money. Many interesting things happened there, he is considering making a screen play around that.

It has been described as going to Harvard in Hell. A monograph with that name was written by Professor Gifford after interviewing Emory and the first editor, Wanda Coleman, a remarkable poet, Emmy winner, very independent - the thuggish, boorish publishers despised her, as the did any artist that showed brilliance.

Emory retells the story of the film, "Iceberg Slim: Portrait of a Pimp", produced by Ice T originally told in Episode 058.

Based on the life and writings of Iceberg Slim, who was a writer in the stable at Holloway House. He had been a savage pimp, his autobiographic novel, "Pimp" was influential on a generation of Hip Hop performers. Professor Gifford's thesis is that the esthetics if Hip Hop were formed by the writers in Holloway House.

Emory went to the screening of Ice T's movie with great trepidation, because, as he said in Episode 058, he is on record condemning Iceberg Slim.

Iceberg Slim: Portrait of a Pimp Trailer

He found wonderful filmmaking at packed community screening. The movie has graphic novel sections depicting chapters of the novel, "Pimp," interviews with his daughters and wives and people influenced by him, plus statements from scholars critical of his effect on culture and literature. Emory thinks the movie is even-handed.

Mary congratulates Ferrie and Jim on their video being included on "Fluid Raven".

Mary says Jim's Haiku Today on paper.ly is quite a work. Unlike other paper.ly publishers, Jim uses his own curated Twitter List and enters single posts or pages he finds. He also brings the stories he wants to the top, deletes out algorithmic excesses. On Twitter, he gives linked mentions to all contributors to each edition.

(Jim first talked about setting up his Haiku Today paper.ly in Episode 065, then again in Episode 070)

Cool way to publish, Steve says. Jim says, "if publishing means it's gone through a editorial process, then yes, it's publishing."

Mary says for her, publishing means making public, sometimes that involves editing, sometimes not.

Ferrie gives a tip on being discoverable - uses each keyword three or four times in the text of your post.

Mary said she received a complaint on a post because she had used the label (search term) of a composer's name, but had not written much about him.

Emory asks and Mary answers that her Shinny's Girls trilogy (discussed in Episode 048, Episode 049, Episode 054, Episode 056, Episode 063, Episode 069, Episode 072, Episode 080) is about ready for eBook publication.

In Canada, ISBN numbers are free.

Her historical fiction novel, "Presto!", (discussed in The Social Context Of Interrupting Lawrence Welk For Ragtime Stravinsky, Episode 042, Episode 060 Episode 063, and Episode 067) is ready for the last polishing draft. She'd like another paper book, so she may try traditional publishers first - but she will not wait long before publishing it herself.

Emory asks Steve and Ruth for a progress report on the painting-a-month schedule they previously discussed, here: Episode 062, Episode 063, Episode 064, Episode 068, and Episode 080.

Ruth says they're doing two per month, now. It's a press, a strain, she's scrambling. "it's an exciting time for me, I've been planing paintings that have been on my list forever. I have many opportunities to try out my new ideas."

Steve says he thinks the painting schedule is working as he hoped it would. "Causing us to scramble for the resources necessary for each canvas."

Secret Knowledge - David Hockney

Steve draws from a photo, paints from a drawing. "If I don't have a drawing ready, I can't start a painting." He says the pace is helping them get more efficient. "So we can produce more work with less effort."

Ferrie likes that idea.

Steve says they start a painting by projecting a drawing on a canvas and paint into the projection. They have one projector, it's in the garage where it's cool - they contend to use it.

Emory asks, "Has anyone seen the book, "Secret Knowledge," David Hockney wrote on the camera obscura?"

Steve saw it, read only a little.

Emory thought the "60 Minutes" segment on the book was very interesting.

Steve says the book does a good job educating the public on how paintings are made.

Jim asks Steve and Ruth if they have special lighting, Steve answers, "full-spectrum bulbs".

"Speaking of painting," Ferrie says he made, today, a painting in sounds, based on a piece by Philip Glass - Domilagui Shabala – makes no sense.

photo Library of Congress – Mount Vernon

Steve asks Ferrie to talk about his switch from painting to music.

Ferrie says he did that in '07 because painting needs hard craftsmanship, you need a lot of energy and strength to do it. He was lacking in both. He looked for another way to express himself and found music. He uses painting techniques to make music.

Emory asks, Ferrie answers, "music is physically easier than painting."

Ferrie says in his case, he's not working hard to make music, he's looking around for sounds, he finds one and it's "oh yeah, let's try that one."

Emory says he used to have a prejudice against writers because when he was around them at parties, the words the used were so dense and the concepts they discussed were so heavy, he'd have to go home to nap.

Around painters and photographers, he felt buoyant.

Emory was a truck driver, (told in an un-transcribed early episode), he thought art was holy, that he could make art only after a full day's work.

He switched to art, deciding to pursue either writing or painting whichever paid him first - he's a writer.

He says his last project, the novel, "Yip's Last Case", was like working with stone columns, or like bending big pieces of steel. As he said last week, Emory says "writing is not two dimensional, it is architecture".

Jim says he wrote about navigating with maps, then folded that over into a taxonomy of different ways to write Haiku. He finds that any writing he puts his heart into is like chiseling marble.

"After the dross is gone," Jim says, "the last bit is huge."

Emory says he'd like to work longer, but he feels the wear, now. If he works too long, he will get sick.

He woke up yesterday at 2:30am to read through his novel - glad to only be reading.

Steve says the writers present are talking about doing heavy lifting, but it's mental, a writer sits in a chair. Painters stand up and wave their arms.

Jim says, "you're not seeing the pacing!" "There's nothing relaxing about writing."

Emory asks Jim if he sees a big difference in energy expenditure between writing and music.

Jim answers that playing music can be invigorating and restorative, but music demands as much as work as writing to complete a piece.

Emory asks Allan if photography is uplifting or is only accomplished through great exertion?

"I'm a street photographer, the exertion is in running around on the street with a camera," Allan answers.

When he sees something, takes several photos of it from different angles. He says he doesn't know which one will look good when he gets them on the screen.

"There's always surprises," Allan says.

Emory asks if Allan limits the amount of time stays out. Allan answers that when he feels physically tired, he reverses his route and goes home.

"There's so much going on in the streets," Allan exclaims. There's no limit of source material, he always comes back with pictures.

Side Of Graffiti Truck In Lower Manhattan - Elisha Cook Jr. (Allan Ludwig)

"You wouldn't believe everything that is going on in the streets, downtown New York, just incredible," he assures.

Steve says it is a shame his pictures aren't publicly visible on Flickr because of complaint years ago. (told Episode 069, Episode 078, Episode 072, and Episode 069.

Allan's photos are available to Flickr members who allow unrestricted content.

"You can show severed heads, the most grotesque violence, but no sexual content," Allan says.

He lets Flickr restrict his work, so he will hear no complaints.

Mary said she read Allan's blog. Allan says someone asked him to write about the changes in his Little Italy neighborhood, so he blogged, as he said on Episode 069 and Episode 073.

Allan says he talked with a Monsignor at the church (St. Patrick's's Cathedral) who said even the Feast of San Gennaro, isn't a local feast, isn't Italian anymore - the vendors come from all over and work all the NYC street fairs, selling the same food at each one.

Jim asks if there are other photographers and artists around the neighborhood.

Allan says those who got rent controlled apartments thirty years ago and those who bought their lofts are hanging on. The younger, artistic people are not hanging around Nolita, they have left for Brooklyn or further away.

Mary asks if any composer has complained about the way Ferrie alters their music.

No. Ferrie says he does variations "based on..." for instance, "Maybe A Goodbye Will Come – by Henry Newbury

He works with the music in MIDI form. [Editor note: MIDI files instruct software instruments to play. MIDI files are not recordings of a musical performance.]

He puts his own vision on the piece of music. He sometimes composes and he likes to produce quite a bit.

Online, he has met composers from all over. the globe who encourage him to do what he will with their compositions. A colleague from Argentina sent Ferrie his complete oeuvre, thirty or forty compositions.

Europe is much more supportive of the Arts, Jim asks Ferrie if he agrees. In the United States, people have short attention spans and little cultural memory. They may quick to voice criticism. Are their critical people in Europe?

Ferrie says that there are and he doesn't care if people do not like his work.

Jim asks if he has always been like that with his work or did it take time to develop his mature attitude. Ferrie says he's had the same attitude all along, "I have an idea, I want to create something that matches that idea."

Emory says he's going to submit Chapter One of his novel for the podcast to publish.

Ferrie wants people to think about how social media behavior has changed recently. He'd like to discuss next week.