Avodah EmaiList Archive http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avodah-aishdas.org/ Wed, 27 May 2026 12:06:11 -0700 akivagmiller at gmail.com (Akiva Miller) Sun, 24 May 2026 12:20:09 -0700 <CABiM0cL0B0XXwmcQ-V6mkmb8A-3M-54axfNM-s-iXHKZ55MuBw@mail.gmail.com> . For this post, I will assume that we agree that Lo Siten Michshol applies to all sorts of bad advice, but particularly to advice which encourages the listener to do something forbidden. Further, it applies even when giving advice to a non-Jew, if the advice is to do something which is forbidden for non-Jews. If you disagree with any of that, please start a new thread. If so, I am very surprised by the advice which Naami gave to Ruth (1:15): "Look, Orpah went back to her people and to her religion; you too, go follow her." It sounds to me like Naami is advising Ruth to return to her old Avodah Zara. How is this not a violation of Michshol? I do understand that there is a famous machlokes on whether or not Orpah and Ruth had yet converted to Judaism at this point of the story. Irrelevant! Even if Ruth was still a non-Jew, how could Naami advise her to follow Orpah back to their Avodah Zara, given that it is assur even for non-Jews? In fact, having seen that Orpah DID go back to her old way, shouldn't that have been a wake-up call to *protect* Ruth from that likelihood? I suppose it is possible that Naami's intention was, "Go follow Orpah back to her people, but not to her religion." (I think I saw Alshich quoted as suggesting this.) But considering how very grave Avodah Zara is, I think it still crosses the line into Michshol. (Especially according to my understanding of the Torah Temimah #58, that once they would go back to their people, it's virtually certain that they'd go back to the religion too.) Couldn't Naami have suggested something like, "I have nothing, and I can't support you. But you're still better off with me than with the Avodah Zara-niks in Moav."? This question has bothered me for decades, but I think I have an answer, and I hope the chevra can confirm or disprove it. Namely: I suspect that at the time of this story, Moav was monotheistic, or at least, had a significant monotheist minority. This would solve the Michshol problem (admittedly only for the opinion that Orpah and Ruth were not yet Jewish), because there's nothing wrong with a monotheist non-Jew. "Orpah went back to her previous monotheistic religion, and so should you." What does the pasuk say about this theory? Naami's actual words to Ruth were that Orpah had returned to her people and to "eloheha", i.e., "her elohim". Now, we all know that "elohim" is a tricky word to translate. Sometimes it can mean "gods", as in "elohim acherim". And sometimes it means "God", as in "Hashem Elokeinu". What does it mean *here*? Curiously, ArtScroll translates this pasuk both ways! In their Tanach, "eloheha" is rendered "her gods", but in the Shavuos Machzor, and also in their one-volume "The Book of Ruth", it is "her god" - in the singular. According to this, Orpah did indeed go back to her prior monotheistic religion! Of course, I do realize NOT to put too much stock in a translator's whim, or what might even have been an unintentional typo. That's why I'm asking if anyone else can contribute anything. Thanks in advance! Akiva Miller http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avodah-aishdas.org/2026q2/048391.html meirabi at gmail.com (Rabbi Meir G. Rabi) Tue, 19 May 2026 21:31:38 -0700 <CAG2PE9=L5bm5aYJWkUfWB9Uw_dsfASN2-MGyi0UP=BccTWGMNA@mail.gmail.com> Thank you for the comprehensive reflections on the history and context of that event. One must however consider that Chazal employed various events to highlight their perspective of the Divine Will their main objective being Moral lessons we must learn from these historical events and even if they exaggerated in order to embellish a point or two is this not perfectly legitimate and a successful strategy? Chazal describe the admission of Achan he violated the Cherem of Yericho and in the next war the Yidden suffered defeat After various Divinely inspired tests and a lottery Achan admitted Yehoshua QUICKLY dispatched messengers to collect the evidence. What was the hurry? Yehoshua was afraid that Shevet Yehudah rather than being happy to have eliminated the evil from their midst would go to war with the other tribes to defend the honour of their tribe and therefore were suspected of taking and concealing the incriminating evidence. See Rashi there This from the generation known as the Doe DeAh who witnessed for many years Bread from Heaven Water from a Rock and clouds that led and protected them The witnessed crossing the Yarden described as greater and more miraculous the KeRiyas Yam Suf the miraculous war against Yericho They had been in EY for a couple of weeks or months and they are already close to having a civil war. Whether this is absolutely true or not is not germane to Chazals discussion they have a lesson to teach - Doss Is Der Mensch. As for the last remaining 1000 Talmidim of R Akiva Chazal I feel, want us to ask What the blazes were they thinking and would WE think/rationalise any differently? Best, Meir G. Rabi 0423 207 837 +61 423 207 837 http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avodah-aishdas.org/2026q2/048390.html joelirarich at gmail.com (Joel Rich) Tue, 19 May 2026 20:09:05 -0700 <CAE7cFpGjSPU_U+O-JPO43km12k=CCSSaoO4KnynCHqJQRMmqmQ@mail.gmail.com> ------------------------------ ????? ???? ??? ???? ??? (?) ??? ????? ???????? ???? ??????. ???? ???? ???? ????? ???? ????? ????? ???? ??????? ????? ????? ?? ?? ???? ??? ????? ???? ????? ??????? ?? ???? ??? ??? ????? ????: ------------------------------ ?However, in a place where men remove hair it appears that he means non-Jewish men, since once it is the established practice, it is considered established, and we even derive from the practices of non-Jews. It is also possible to say that he is referring to Jews, that in a place where they have all instituted this practice together, we do not protest against them.? ------------------------------ Any ideas on where (halachically) these alternatives (Jees vs Non-Jewscome from? Psychologically? Do they apply to other issurim? KT Joel Rich http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avodah-aishdas.org/2026q2/048389.html joelirarich at gmail.com (Joel Rich) Tue, 12 May 2026 20:01:20 -0700 <CAE7cFpHe-F1NNgWMR8_8d=dAZr=d+ij1bNBYrEmJOVVW53LOtg@mail.gmail.com> On ?second day? yom tov in chul someone said to me I must be sleeping better here than at home (Yerushalayim). I responded ?no, I sleep better in Yerushalayim where I know HKBH exercises direct hashgacha over his people. Are there halachic implications of this direct hashgacha? kt joel rich http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avodah-aishdas.org/2026q2/048388.html joelirarich at gmail.com (Joel Rich) Tue, 12 May 2026 19:58:00 -0700 <CAE7cFpFsuaGm-jE4AT9MrdKsv4Zx0PGt2mhj95k0cpjxw_Wnww@mail.gmail.com> Posted on the door at a US shul. To All Seeking Tzedakah: We are eager to help you! In order to best do so, we ask that you please seek out Rabbi xxxxx with your Tzedakah needs. The Rabbi can also assist with procurement of a tzedakah from the yyyyyyyyy Tzedakah Committee. We unfortunately cannot allow any solicitation of Tzedakah from our members inside the shul building. We kindly ask for your compliance with this policy. (Our security team will be tasked with enforcement.) May Hashem bless you with health, sustenance, and good tidings, together with the entire Jewish People. Rabbi xxxxxxxx Me- 1. I note the phrase ?We unfortunately cannot allow any solicitation?. What force is ?unfortunately? keeping ?them? from allowing the solicitation? 2. The ?tuvei hair? have broad authority, but is a complete ban appropriate halachically and/or hashkafical KT Joel Rich http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avodah-aishdas.org/2026q2/048387.html micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Sun, 10 May 2026 07:14:20 -0700 <agCSvEOUj4/4fbpS@aishdas.org> On Sat, May 09, 2026 at 08:32:21PM +0000, Ben Bradley via Avodah wrote: > Next, we can be sure that R Akiva died around the end or slightly > after the end of the Bar kochba revolt based of Chazal's reporting of > the circumstances around his death. Hadrian speant a lot of time suppressing us after the fall of Beitar. The plowing of the Har haBayis didn't happen at the same time as BK's Temple building project. So, maybe it was later. I don't see this argument compelling. > So, with all respect to R Henkin... There are earlier sources: R Sherira Gaon in the She'iltos <http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14593&pgnum=89> says "vehavei shamda al talmidei RA", which has been argued is about shemad, and thus Roman oppression. I know this is debated, but I don't recall the other interpretation. In the new Moznayim edition of Midrash Rabba, the Eitz Yoseif (on Bereishis 61) says they died between Pesach and Shavuos in Milchemes Beitar. That's early 19th cent, but most (not all) of EY is a liqut. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Today is the 38th day, which is http://www.aishdas.org/asp 5 weeks and 3 days in/toward the omer. Author: Widen Your Tent Tifferes sheb'Yesod: How does reliability - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF promote harmony in life and relationships? http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avodah-aishdas.org/2026q2/048385.html bdbradley70 at hotmail.com (Ben Bradley) Sun, 10 May 2026 13:40:19 -0700 <GVXP190MB2593E0092AEE1BE5767B9626AB3B2@GVXP190MB2593.EURP190.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM> Hadrian speant a lot of time suppressing us after the fall of Beitar. The plowing of the Har haBayis didn't happen at the same time as BK's Temple building project. Beitar fell in the summer of 135 at the end of the BK revolt, historians seem unanimous on that. And the Hadrianic decrees ceased with the death of Hadrian in 138, only 3 years after Beitar fell. That also seems undisputed by historians. So whichever way you look at it R Akiva, who certainly died between the later stages of the BK revolt and the death of of Hadrian had very little time to raise more talmidim if they died during the revolt. And as I pointed out, the particular talmidim he is said to have raised afterwards were mature adults by the BK revolt, there seems next to no doubt about from what we know of their own biographies. So it's exceptionally unlikely to the point of impossible that he took them as students at that time. Sherira Gaon in the She'iltos <http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14593&pgnum=89> says "vehavei shamda al talmidei RA", which has been argued is about shemad, and thus Roman oppression. I know this is debated, but I don't recall the other interpretation. I referred to that too. R Sherira does not say which shmad. There was a lesser discussed period of perscution from 115-117 just before the beginning of Hadrian's reign, milchemes kitos, I wonder if the reference is to that. Either way, it doesn't change the multiple problems I identified with dating the death of R Akiva's students to the BK revolt. Again, I note that no one tries to date their death until the 20th century as far as I'm aware. ________________________________ From: Micha Berger <micha at aishdas.org> Sent: 10 May 2026 17:14 To: The Avodah Torah Discussion Group <avodah at lists.aishdas.org> Cc: Ben Bradley <bdbradley70 at hotmail.com> Subject: Re: [Avodah] ALL 24000 died On Sat, May 09, 2026 at 08:32:21PM +0000, Ben Bradley via Avodah wrote: > Next, we can be sure that R Akiva died around the end or slightly > after the end of the Bar kochba revolt based of Chazal's reporting of > the circumstances around his death. Hadrian speant a lot of time suppressing us after the fall of Beitar. The plowing of the Har haBayis didn't happen at the same time as BK's Temple building project. So, maybe it was later. I don't see this argument compelling. > So, with all respect to R Henkin... has been argued is about shemad, and thus Roman oppression. I know this is debated, but I don't recall the other interpretation. There are earlier sources: R Sherira Gaon in the She'iltos <http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14593&pgnum=89> says "vehavei shamda al talmidei RA", which In the new Moznayim edition of Midrash Rabba, the Eitz Yoseif (on Bereishis 61) says they died between Pesach and Shavuos in Milchemes Beitar. That's early 19th cent, but most (not all) of EY is a liqut. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Today is the 38th day, which is http://www.aishdas.org/asp 5 weeks and 3 days in/toward the omer. Author: Widen Your Tent Tifferes sheb'Yesod: How does reliability - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF promote harmony in life and relationships? http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avodah-aishdas.org/2026q2/048386.html bdbradley70 at hotmail.com (Ben Bradley) Sat, 09 May 2026 13:32:21 -0700 <GVXP190MB2593B3C69C317508C74CE7E4AB3A2@GVXP190MB2593.EURP190.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM> Stating historical theories about events reported in the gemara without comparing all relevant data points in Chazal and then adding known external historical dates is prone to be misleading. This is a case in point. First - the historical data points. The Bar Kochba revolt was from 132-135. The Hadrianic persecutions lasted from the beginning of the revolt until 138 when Hadrian died. Next, we can be sure that R Akiva died around the end or slightly after the end of the Bar kochba revolt based of Chazal's reporting of the circumstances around his death. Now if all the students died during the Bar Kochba revolt, when could the aged Rabbi Akiva, with a couple of years left to live, have 'gone south' and raised more talmidim? And in any case, we can be certain that the talmidim he is reported to have raised - including Rashbi and R Meir, were already mature talmidei chachamim by the time of the Bar Kochba revolt, they were certainly not young and green. Two relevant data points to this end - firstly we know that Rashbi was a young student at the time of Bo bayom, because the gemara names him as the student who created the problem in the Beis midrash of Kerem bYavneh by asking the question which pitted R Yehoshua against Raban Gamliel. Bo Bayom can be dated to around the year 90 by identifying the relative ages of the various protaganists at the time. That was 40 years before Bar Kochba, so by no stretch of the imagination did Rashbi need 'raising up' around that time. Similarly, R Meir can not have been young and green either in 132-135. Because Rebi was born around then as we can see from his rough age at the writing of the Mishna about 60 years later. And he saw the 'back of R Meir' in his youth. R Meir must have been mature a scholar by the time Rebi was a child. So, with all respect to R Henkin, It is difficult to the point of impossible to understand the theory that R Akiva's students died in the Bar Kochba revolt if we assume the historical accuracy of his raising his 5 central talmidim afterwards. That may be an assumption, especially since the likelihood of the numbers reported as dying and its cause being literal see very low. R Sheria already hints strongly to that. http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avodah-aishdas.org/2026q2/048384.html simon.montagu at gmail.com (Simon Montagu) Thu, 07 May 2026 09:44:58 -0700 <CAMCqVDgeQ7C=-bo8h_-zct2TJXxDAnrSkmp5htKjVvww6t6KYw@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, May 7, 2026 at 4:34?PM Micha Berger via Avodah < avodah at lists.aishdas.org> wrote: > On Tue, Feb 24, 2026 at 12:00:12PM -0500, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote: > > In our parsha, Onkelos translates "tur" as "sidra" - an orderly > > arrangement... > > From which we get the word "tor", as in a turn or an appointment. I > thought of it as a row in time. That is a completely different word, spelled with a tav not a tet. http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avodah-aishdas.org/2026q2/048383.html micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Thu, 07 May 2026 06:23:54 -0700 <afySao/0zSfEdbvI@aishdas.org> On Tue, Feb 24, 2026 at 12:00:12PM -0500, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote: > Most translations render "tur" as "row", but very unfortunately, most > people read that without realizing that "row" is an ambiguous word. They > think that the four turim are horizontal rows, like in a chart or table, > with the first row on top, and the fourth on the bottom. But isn't it true > that the predecessor to the Shulchan Aruch, namely the Arbaa Turim, is > often depicted as four vertical *columns*? As per your usage, we usually call a vertical row a "column". ... > In our parsha, Onkelos translates "tur" as "sidra" - an orderly > arrangement, like Wiktionary's first definition, not related to rows or > columns. I believe this is also true of how "tur" is used in Melachim 1 > 7:12, Yechezkel 46:23, and Divrei Hayamim 2 4:3. > In our parsha, Onkelos translates "tur" as "sidra" - an orderly > arrangement... >From which we get the word "tor", as in a turn or an appointment. I thought of it as a row in time. I think the usage in Melakhim is a (horizonal) row. The cedar beams stood vertically, like the kerashim they replace, in a row. Similarly, Yechezqeil's "hatiros" are layers of brick. Physical horizontal row. And Divrei haYamim is talking about rows of cow images "saviv saviv". So I see all of the citations as talking about horizontal rows. > Encyclopedia Talmudit, volume 1, has an article titled "Avnei Choshen > v'Ephod", which brings two opinions at the top of column 93. According to > the Pesikta Zutresa (Parshas Tetzaveh, and Chizkuni there), the four turim > are horizontal rows, and the three jewels of each row are placed in the > Choshen from right to left. According to Minchas Chinuch 99, the four turim > are vertical columns; the first column being on the right, and the three > jewels of each column are placed in the Choshen from top to bottom. Despite my inability to find a use of "tur" to mean column, the MC concludes it must mean that here because (1) symmetry would have it match the columns of names on the avnei shoham; (2) the kohein gadol's body is more of a column shape than a row; (3) we read in columns of rows, eg amudim in a sefer Torah. This is after citing the Ramban as saying the names were arranged horizonally. The MC makes other arguments, but I am not sure how they differ from #3. See a physical copy or https://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14093&pgnum=224 because the usual suspects are text only, so the tables he uses to show you the layouts don't make sense. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Today is the 35th day, which is http://www.aishdas.org/asp 5 weeks in/toward the omer. Author: Widen Your Tent Malchus sheb'Hod: What is soul-like about - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF submission, and how is it glorious? http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avodah-aishdas.org/2026q2/048380.html micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Thu, 07 May 2026 06:27:20 -0700 <afyTOEwD8xz7VDXP@aishdas.org> On Wed, Apr 22, 2026 at 06:14:12AM +0300, Joel Rich via Avodah wrote: > The Aruch HaShulchan uses the phrase 201 times in the AHS. In only one of > those cases (allowing bells on a Sefer Torah on Shabbat -- O"C 338:3) does he > add b'chol ha'olam. Any ideas? Could it be something as balebatish as in those cases he knew the Sepharadi minhagim matched? Whereas usually his scope was East European or at best Ashkenaz only? Remember how big the world was when he was writing. Tir'u baTov! -Micha http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avodah-aishdas.org/2026q2/048381.html micha at aishdas.org (Micha Berger) Thu, 07 May 2026 06:31:59 -0700 <afyUT/tCccyohyyZ@aishdas.org> On Wed, Mar 11, 2026 at 01:49:19PM +0200, Joel Rich via Avodah wrote: > [I'm converting the opening quote to something our digest software can > handle. -micha] > > Rambam Hilkhos Sanhedrin 2:3: > Ein ma'amidim bekhol haSanhedrin > - lo zaqei muflag bashanim ... > Given the above, was there ever a time in halachic history where a poseik's > psak was (or his ability to give psak) was questioned based on this > exclusion? If not, why not? You mean in cases where the poseiq was known to be fully mentally capable still? I am not saying the Rambam is referring to a "zaqiein muflag bashanim" as only someone outright senile. I was thinking maybe he means someone who is growing a bit forgetful, but functions day-to-day well enough. Or maybe this is a din in Sanhedrin, because the problem isn't in pesaq, but in legislation. I just cannot see why. Vehadarta penei zaqein. Tir'u baTov! -Micha -- Micha Berger Today is the 35th day, which is http://www.aishdas.org/asp 5 weeks in/toward the omer. Author: Widen Your Tent Malchus sheb'Hod: What is soul-like about - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF submission, and how is it glorious? http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avodah-aishdas.org/2026q2/048382.html