Sport-flirting with a friend you *know* has feelings for you is bad, bad manners.

Hi Captain:

There is this totally awesome and beautiful girl in some of my graduate classes. I sat next to her and before I knew it we started texting a lot and it looked like it was leading to something more. I tried taking her out to dinner but once she had something come up and then we never got definitive plans after that. One night she started drunk texting me and she expressed that she wanted me. The next morning she appoligized for her texts. I total her don’t worry about. A couple days later the she started drunk texting me again. This time she expressed a stronger desire for me. The next morning she appoligized again.

Later that day she said how she was embarrassed that she wanted me when she was drunk. I told her I liked it because I like her. She then responded with “I thought we were just friends,” “I’m glad I know this now,” and “I hope this doesn’t make things awkward” I tried to get a clear answer about what this meant but was left under the impression that she just wanted to be friends.

Later that night, she started texting me again. This time it became full on sexting. During which she said how much she wanted me. Then the next morning she appoligized again. This time talking about how embarrassed she was and how she gets crazy when she’s drunk. I told her how confused this all made me, but that I like her and she responded “I like how we are now ya know?”

First What the HELL does this all mean?

Is there something I can do to piece this together and go out with her?
Should I wait this out and see what may happen?
Or should I just cut off communication and move on?

Thanks
Too confused to pursue

Dear Too Confused:

I think that you handled this beautifully when you asked the lady out. Straight up: “I like you. Let’s have dinner.” That was cool and confident. And when she said, “No thanks,” you backed off and respected that and tried to keep it strictly friendly & professional. Also cool.

When we really like someone, or we’re feeling lonely and unloved, any scrap of interest or attention from someone we like can feel really good. “Hey, they like me! They wouldn’t be texting ‘I’d love to _____ your _____ in my ______ and then _____ your _____” if they didn’t like me, right? Maybe I got a shot here!”

And maybe in moments when she’s alone and drunk, your classmate really does want to ____ your _____. It’s crossed her mind, shall we say. And maybe, with a little persistence on your part, you could get your _____  _____ed.

Do you want to be that guy?

Do you want to be the guy who gets sex and affection on those terms? From a someone who totally disavows you in the sober light of day?

I think you’re cooler than that guy. And I think the coolest, most honest answer to her next bout of drunk texting is:

“Sorry, this is confusing and not really fun. Goodnight.”

And then don’t respond to any more texts from her that night. In class, treat her like nothing happened unless she brings it up.* If she does (because: embarrassed) you can say “Listen, I think you’re really gorgeous and would love to go out sometime. But I’m also happy to be friends.Since we are going to be in these classes for a long time together, and I value your company no matter how it works out, let’s lay off the drunken flirting and just be straight with each other, ok? Because that stuff isn’t fun for me if it isn’t sincere.”

A cool lady who is actually worth being your friend will apologize and drunk sext you no more. A cool lady who actually wants to go out with you will apologize and start making plans for your date. Either way, you’re gonna need to be watchful around alcohol when you spend time together. Not because every drunk text from someone is insincere, or every drunk hookup is automatically a bad idea, but because she specifically has shown you repeatedly that her drunk persona and sober self can be operating on two totally different wavelengths. I don’t want to see your wishful thinking meet her drunkful thinking in a way that really, really hurts you. I don’t think you guys are quite close enough friends for the “Do you have a drinking problem?” talk (right now it might come across as concern-trolling) but if this is frequent behavior and you do get closer, that one might be in your future.

I would keep your expectations very low, and do what you can to excise hope that this is going somewhere either sexy or romantic. You do not have to live on the scraps of someone else’s attention. You are not there to be used at her convenience for sexual distraction, or strung along. And you don’t have to open yourself up to repeated rejection. However it works out, I think there is value for you in making a statement about your own self-worth and what treatment you are willing to put up with. There is a fallacy that guys are always up for sex and will do it with anyone who expresses the slightest interest. There’s nothing wrong with her wanting to have sex with you and expressing it, and there’s nothing wrong with you being attracted to her and expressing it, but you don’t have to operate within that stereotype just because she thinks you do.

Whether she “secretly” wants you and can express it only when drunk (Because, maybe she’s worried about slut-shaming? Or has intimacy & trust issues? Or is using alcohol as a social lubricant or excuse to disavow the behavior later? Or has a major problem with alcohol and is texting you during a blackout? I keep trying to come up with the kindest explanation for what she’s about here. Readers?), or she actually doesn’t want you but likes to flirt and mess around with you when she’s drunk, she’s giving off some red flags here.

People who are really bad at boundaries and who can only be sexual or express emotions when drunk or high, people who reject you one day and then are all up in your business the next day, are, in my opinion, less than ideal sexual or romantic partners.They don’t know how to treat themselves well, so they don’t know how to treat their partners well. I don’t think she’s treating you especially well, and suggest that you handle with extreme care. Given her changeability on the subject of You: In Her Pants and the ubiquity of Her: In Your Graduate Program, I think only badness lies that way

You’re not the one making it weird, here. I think you are cooler than some drunk lady’s backup booty call. Keep awesomeing, and I predict that pretty soon someone that recognizes your value and communicates it like a grownup will come your way.

*Not necessarily for the letter writer, here, but important to say:

I don’t think “I was drunk, I didn’t mean it” is actually an excuse. People are still responsible for their behavior, and if you are the type of person who cheats on your S.O. (but only when drunk!), or says mean things when drunk, or sends sexy texts to the guy from your class that you keep telling you don’t want to go out with, then after the first time it “accidentally” happens it’s on you to avoid situations where that behavior is normal for you. “Sorry, I was drunk!” isn’t really an apology for jerky behavior, and you still did that thing that hurt someone else whether you meant to or not.

However, I *do* think that when someone is impaired and their inhibitions are clearly lowered, especially when sexuality is involved, it’s a good idea to be extra-responsible and conservative in how you deal with them. Would they want to do this if they were sober? No? Or, maybe, but you’re not sure? Then don’t do it when they’re drunk. It’s only really fun if everyone is sure.

A drunk woman at a party saying “Hey I want to have sex with you” might really mean she wants to have sex with you. A lot of us have walked in those drunk, horny shoes and had a fun, drunk, horny time. But I don’t think we would lose anything, were she talking to us, if we said “Awesome, maybe in the morning, after some breakfast! Let’s do it! But right now, howabout we make out a little, and everyone keeps their pants ON.” And/or “You take the bed and I’ll take the couch. First, let’s get some water into you.” In the morning when everyone is sober you can say, “Hey, you are so hot and if that was a serious offer last night I’d love to take you up on it, but I wanted everyone to be really sure.” And maybe you won’t end up having sex. Which is a loss of…not having sex with someone who didn’t enthusiastically want to have sex with you. Which if you are a decent person, is a bullet dodged, not an opportunity missed. If you want to be sure that your partner is really into it, there is a way to be absolutely sure: Wait until you’re both sure.

Letter writer, believe the sober rejection, until a sober seduction comes your way. You lose nothing by being a mensch in this regard.

At least they aren’t trying to get you to marry him…yet.

Dear Captain Awkward,

My problem boils down to this: can I say no, or do I have to be polite? 

I’m not a social person. I don’t have friends at the moment. The reasons for that are many –mostly boiling down to living at home again while I look for a job. At school, I had close friends I still talk to over the internet, but until I get a more permanent job with fixed hours I don’t have a pool of people I can talk to in a neutral space where I can happily make friends. I’m fine with that. But my parents believe friends = happiness.

My parents recently hired a 20-year-old decorator (I’m 23) and the three of them think that we should be friends. Apparently he saw my books and “knew” he could have an intelligent conversation with me, which he can’t get from his other friends. He also thought it would be nice for me to have someone who would ask how my day went. I said no.

From what I’ve seen and what my parents have said, he seems like a good guy. He’s intelligent, has had a pretty crap life so far, and what he’s made for himself despite that is impressive. He also has ADHD and a tendency to talk and talk and talk, which is exhausting. It seems like the biggest plus point in his favour with my parents is that they sympathise with him.

He calls me by my family nickname instead of my actual name, although I’ve asked him not to. He makes jokes about my quietness (usually the typical “you never shut up, do you?” and “can’t get a word in edgeways around her!”) that I can’t respond to with anything but silence. He phones once or twice a day; I refused to give him my number so he calls the house. He’s turned up on the doorstep unannounced twice. And I don’t know if this is normal behaviour or not. Very few of my friends ever came round to my house. But I feel unsafe when alone there. I’m constantly on alert in case he appears.

So I avoid him and then feel bad, because he’s just very enthusiastic and he can’t help his ADHD. Why should I judge him for that? I think I’m being paranoid, picky, or a sullen, uncommunicative, ungrateful cow towards a young man who just wants to be friends. I know I’m probably abnormal for not wanting to make friends right now, and I shouldn’t be so fussy, but I really, really don’t want to spend time with this man. 

So – what can I do?

Probably In The Wrong

Dear Probably:

I don’t think you are even a little bit in the wrong. There are situations when close friends “just drop by” each other’s houses (and in college when house = dorm room, that is much more likely) but it’s not normal for someone you just met, and calling twice/day is definitely way too often!

And do you want to know why it is way too often?

I mean, there is no objective standard for measuring these things.

I mean, some friends somewhere probably call/text/gchat each other more than once a day and everyone has a different idea of what “normal” is.

He is calling/dropping by way too often because it is too often for you. And the correct barometer for measuring whether this amount of contact is too much is your personal subjective feeling that it is too much. That is in fact the only correct way to measure this.

There is also only exactly one compelling argument or deciding factor in the whole “should this guy and I be friends?” question.

That factor is not whether your parents feel bad about you missing friends from school and trying to set you up.

That factor is not whether your parents went to some trouble and meant this whole thing kindly.

That factor is not how this guy felt when he saw your books, or the effort he has put into becoming friends, or how much he’d like to become friends.

That factor is not whether rejection would make him sad or hurt his feelings, or fuck up your parents decorating schemes.

That factor is: Do you like this guy and want to be friends with him? It sounds like you don’t. Then “No, I don’t” is the only acceptable answer, reason, argument that anyone should need to end this thing that is making you feel stressed and unsafe.

There are two conversations to be had here. I am not sure which order they should happen in.

Parent Conversation:

“Hey, parents, I know you meant well when you tried to hook Decorator and me up as friends, but unfortunately I don’t actually like him. I don’t want to mess up your professional relationship, but I am going to ask him to stop calling or coming by to see me, and I’d appreciate a day’s notice if he’s going to be around so I can make it less awkward and arrange to be at the library or something.“

The cool response here is: “Whoa, we’re sorry. That is very awkward, but of course we’ll do whatever we can to make it easier on you.“

The coolEST response here is “Whoa, we’re sorry, that is very awkward, but of course we will do whatever we can to make it easier on you” + taking on the responsibility of letting him know.

Well-meaning. Smart. Annoying as fuck.

That would look like this, incidentally: “Your interest in our daughter was very kind, and we had high hopes that you would become friends.Unfortunately she’s let us know that she doesn’t want a personal relationship with you, so we’d like to keep it strictly business from now on. She especially would prefer it if you not stop by the house and come only at prearranged times when we’ve scheduled work. I told her we could count on you to respect that.” + subject change to work.

You’re a grownup, obviously, an can handle your own difficult conversations, but as the people with a professional and ongoing relationship with this guy it’s not a terrible idea if they delivered the news.

Chances of the cool response based on what is in your letter?

Low. Very low.

So brace yourself for derailing responses.

• “He’s not that bad.”
• “Take pity on him.”
• “But he has had a bad life and can’t help being annoying. Have a little compassion! Is that how we raised you?”
• “He hasn’t done anything wrong, exactly, has he?”
• “It’s not a crime to be nice and friendly, right?”
• “This will make it weird for our wallpapering scheme.”
• “Just give him a chaaaaaaaaance.”
• “y u so picky?”
• Etc., etc., etc.

I don’t know if it’s a gendered thing, or a busybody parent thing, or a thwarted matchmaker thing, but the subtext behind all of these derailing questions is the possibility that they’ve invited someone into your life who is creeping you out is harder to take than the prospect that you might just not be nice and accommodating enough and that’s somehow why this isn’t working.

I think “He drops by too much and it makes me feel scared and uncomfortable when I am alone here” is actually good information for your parents about what you need to feel safe in your own home. Those are your instincts trying to protect you! Maybe from an actual predator! Okay, more LIKELY from a really annoying dude who is going to talk at you for a long time, but a) people with really poor understanding of boundaries are not good people to have dropping by the house uninvited and b) you get to decide your own safety threshold. If you feel unsafe around him, if you’re always on edge worrying that he will drop by, he does not actually have to ax murder you to prove objectively that those feelings are important and worth listening to.

Anyone else think that Mr. Collins/Mary Bennet was the great thwarted love story of the book? 

However, your feelings of unsafety might not convince your parents if they are in the middle of bringing a full derail at you and try to “logic” (or, let’s face it, bully and pressure) you into remaining friends with him so that they can save face. In my experience, people who don’t get this REALLY don’t get it and will keep looking for “facts” to try to pressure you into doing what they want.

So one recommended strategy is (once you’ve mentioned the safety concerns) to refrain from explaining it too much. “Sorry, I just don’t like him. I would prefer not to interact with him. I definitely don’t want him ever to come here when you are not here, or when it is not strictly about work, and I definitely want the option to be somewhere else or at least not socialize with him. I recognize that it’s your house and you get to invite who you want to. I don’t want to make it any more awkward then it has to be, but I feel very strongly about this.”

If they keep pushing you, some good scripts to have in your back pocket:

• But I don’t actually like him.
• But since I don’t like him, why are you so invested in our friendship?
• Yes, it is bad news, and he will probably be very hurt. But if you try to force me to be friends with him, I will be very hurt.
• I will do my best to be civil, but the best way to make sure that everything remains civil and polite is to minimize how much time I have to spend with him and get him out of my life as soon as possible.
• It’s really weird that you are so invested in this.
• Unfortunately, “pity” is not a good enough reason to be friends with someone you don’t like.

The guy sounds painfully socially awkward and a bit clueless and like he could really use a good friend. He’s really enthusiastic at the thought of being your friend, because maybe it’s been a long time since he’s connected with anyone, and probably doesn’t mean to overstep his bounds so much.

Ha, did it feel like I was guilting you for a second there?

What you need to keep in mind is:

• Many socially awkward people are lovable and people that you want(!) to have in your life. Hello, look around at where we are. Hi, awesome folks!
• That friend doesn’t have to be you. You don’t owe him anything – not making up for his sad life, not as a trophy of what he’s made of himself, not as a favor to your folks, not as your weekly Reaching Out To The Awkward Charity Good Times!

You don’t like him. You don’t have to. That’s enough of a reason to not be around him. No guilt necessary.

The next conversation is for the Unfortunate Decorator.

There are lots of ways to let him know that you don’t want to interact.  The simplest and most direct (and ultimately the kindest) way is this:

“Decorator, this is very awkward. I know you are putting a lot of effort into befriending me, and my parents meant well by introducing us, but unfortunately I am just not feeling it. I would prefer not to be friends, and I definitely need you to stop calling or dropping by the house to see me.“

You don’t need to give any reason beyond that, though phrases like “Sorry, I just don’t think we connect” and “I don’t want to get to know you better” and “I just don’t like you that much” are handy in your back pocket if he pushes you. If he’s un-self-aware enough to push you, he deserves a blunt, honest answer.

When you’ve been really raised and conditioned not to say no, learning how to say it is a process and it’s good to give yourself some practice. There are lots of ways that you can (and probably are) indicating “no” to this guy. For example:

• If he is at the house to see your parents or do work and starts monologuing at you, excuse yourself and go to your room and shut your door. Or go for a walk. Make it clear that you’re not down to listen to his long speeches. “Sorry, I am not interested in hearing about this.” “Sorry, I don’t want to talk to you.” Be blunt, walk away.
• If he’s calling the house phone for you, and you’ve never told him to stop calling, tell him now. “I don’t want to talk to you on the phone, please don’t call here asking for me.” Hang up. Don’t pick up the phone or come to the phone. Don’t ever answer a call from him.
• If he stops by to see you, tell him once  (through a window or screen door, don’t let him in): “Why are you here?” He’ll either say it’s for parent/work/house stuff, in which case you say “Well, they aren’t here. Why don’t you call them tomorrow and arrange a time in advance? Stopping by is really not ok.” Or, he’ll say “I wanted to hang out/see you/lend you this book/show you my etchings.”  To which you can say, bluntly, “Yeah, I don’t like you stopping by like this, it makes me really uncomfortable.” Shut door or window, go back inside, wait for him to go away and your shoulders to come down from around your ears.
• You don’t have to claim to be busy with something particular, act glad to see him, or be friendly or polite.
• If he asks your parents about what’s up and tries to pressure them to pressure you, it’s a perfect opening for the big conversation with them.

An acceptable response on his part is some variation of “Wow, that is not good news and I feel very awkward now, but of course I understand and will respect your wishes. So sorry to have bothered you” and then peace-ing the fuck out of that room and conversation to lick his wounds later.

There are several uncool responses. One is an emotional outburst involving the words “But whyyyyyyyyyy” or “Give me a chaaaaaaaance?” or demanding a logical, objective reason for your feelings or a list of his supposed errors so that he might correct them or any flavor of pressure on you to reverse your decision. Let’s keep a bit of perspective here, he’s not someone who is or who has ever been close to you, so why would you owe him a long consult? You don’t need to deal with whatever embarrassment or hurt feelings he expresses, or apologize for any of it. I suggest you deliver your news, wait a beat, and then absent yourself from the situation and leave it for others to deal with.

Important safety note:

It is best if rejection conversations takes place when someone else is home. If he drops by when your parents are not home, do NOT let him into the house. Go outside to have it, if you want to, have it through a (locked) screen door, but under no circumstances let him into your space. Chances are that the threat he poses is more of a “Will sit on your couch crying and talking at you for hours” kind of thing, but isn’t that enough reason to make sure he stays outside? Respect your own feelings of distress and fear around him, and limit his physical access to you.

SUPER important safety note:

If you have these conversations with your parents and with him, and he keeps dropping by and trying to insinuate himself into your life, he is indicating that the threat level is raised from “annoying” to “really actually very unsafe.” If he shows up when your parents aren’t home and the visit was not pre-arranged or work-related, do not let him in. Document the conversation you had, document the visit (with a photo, maybe, or just write down the day and time), and consider calling the police to report trespassing. At this time your parents should terminate any contract they have with him and ask him, in writing, to refrain from visiting the premises. Recommended reading: The Gift of Fear.

A happy ending here is that you and your parents and the Unfortunate Decorator have a few awkward conversations. When he comes by to work on the house, you exchange a brief “hey, what’s up” and then have no further interaction with him. He does a good and speedy job with the decorating and definitely does not install any hidden cameras to watch you sleep.

A totally acceptable ending is that this guy feels uncomfortable and steps back from the decorating job and your parents have to find someone else to work with, hopefully having learned an important lesson that you can’t even make 5 year olds be friends with each other if they don’t actually like each other.

An unhappy ending is you having to grit your teeth and smile at someone who invades your space because your parents would feel weird about picking an unsuitable friend for their grown-ass daughter.

We’re only evil stalkers *sometimes.*

Hi Captain!

I’m having a bit of a boundary issue.

About six months ago, I ended a one-year relationship that had become deeply dysfunctional. My boyfriend at the time was very depressed, was using drugs, and was by turns distant and emotionally cruel. I still care about him a lot and I know that most of what he put me through was a result of what he himself was going through – but, I have taken care of myself and moved on. I’m in a healthy relationship now, and I’m very happy. 

The previous boyfriend is currently trying to get his life together, and I’m so glad that this is the case. I know that he can be an amazing person when he’s not in the dark place he’s been in. Unfortunately, he’s not better yet, and while I’ll be prepared to be friends with him when he is, I’m not equipped to take on the role of support system while he pulls himself up. 

He’s not really taking “no” for an answer. He contacts me frequently, even after promising not to, even after I have told him to stop. He talks to my friends – our non-mutual friends – and leaves posts on my blog. He goes back and forth between being remorseful to the point of grovelling and saying cruel and hurtful things. I’m not ready to deal with all of this, so I have stopped acknowledging him completely and until further notice. 

The biggest problem is that we have some mutual friends, and he thinks of them as his territory. I met his best friend while we were still together, and we’ve become very close; I also became close with another of his friends post-breakup (though in the early stages, when it looked like we were going to be able to keep things friendly). I feel like I’ve earned my place in these people’s lives, and they in mine, but I know that it’s hard for him to stop fixating on our time together when I’m always in his periphery, and that he feels like I have stolen them. 

I don’t want to stop being friends with these people, but I do want my previous boyfriend to leave me alone so that I can stop being caught up in all this toxicity and so that he can get better. Can I have it both ways, or do I need to cut my losses?

Rock and a Hard Place

Dear Rock:

I think the kindest thing you can do for yourself is to cut one specific loss: The hope that you and this ex will ever be friends again.

I don’t think you will be. And that isn’t your fault; he’s way too fixated on you and doing some disturbing things to get your attention and to try to control you. That’s not what friends do, that’s what obsessed dudes do. I have been driven to weird and boundary-violating behavior by unrequited love, and the only thing that allowed any kind of friendship to continue was me immediately stopping all unwanted contact and chilling the hell out for a long, long time.

Also, it’s very nice and forgiving that you want to chalk up the cruelty to his bad headspace and addiction issues, but this is still a person who, when the chips are down and things are stressful, releases that stress by being mean to you. Almost everyone who has ever been involved with an addict or a mean person has the same story to tell about this “amazing” person when they’re not drinking/depressed/studying for finals/looking for a job/grieving/using and treats the bad behavior like a massive aberration. I’ve done it, you’ve done it, many of us have done it – there is Good Ex (the one we love) and Bad Ex (the demon that comes out only sometimes and isn’t really his fault because brain chemistry/bad childhood/poorly socialized/substances) and we tell ourselves a story that our love & loyalty can defeat Bad Ex and leave us only with Good Ex. Bad Exes tends to LOVE this story and really spin it out with beautifully crafted apologies for bad behavior that end with you apologizing to them for not being forgiving and accommodating enough.

I would like to put forth the thesis that Good Ex and Bad Ex are the same (“cruel”, boundary violating, untrustworthy, unsafe) person, and that there are people who don’t say mean, terrible things to each other when they are stressed out or sad, and the story of the Amazing! Guy With the Wicked Dark Side is a toxic story that we’re all sort of culturally addicted to. I know that you’ve moved on, and are happy (SERIOUSLY, GOOD JOB, THAT WAS PROBABLY NOT EASY), and you did all the right stuff, and there were very good reasons you loved him, and you are not wrong or stupid for wanting to be as kind and understanding and hopeful as you can be in the aftermath! These are GOOD qualities! They are just easily manipulated by untrustworthy people and easily bound to the story of the fucked up guy who finally was understood sufficiently by the right woman that we all watch every week in 1,000 separate refractions on the TV. I don’t want to see you making excuses for or trying to hold onto a happy ending version of this or bending over backwards to be fair for the sake of someone who is cruel to you. That cruelty isn’t drugs. That cruelty is HIM, and choices he is making.

Let’s weigh the relative “crimes” here:

• You’ve stayed friends with nice people you met through your ex.
• He, in turn, is deliberately and repeatedly communicating with you against your wishes, often in a cruel and emotionally damaging way.
• Yet you’re the one who is worried if what you’re doing is ok and trying to manage the situation better.

You are doing a smart thing by ignoring all communications. I would go several steps further:

1) BLOCK all methods of e-communication, including banning him from making blog comments. If he’s using the phone to text and call you, get a new number that you give only to friends (and ask them not to share with others). Keep the old number and a voice-mail box turned on for a while so that his calls get sent somewhere and he thinks they are getting through. If you need to, have a friend or family member hold onto Old Phone so you have a document but don’t have to deal with it. Make the decision that you will never respond to any communication from him and stick to it.

You may think you owe him a “re-setting of expectations” conversation, like you said once that you wanted to be friends someday but that’s no longer on the table. You don’t actually owe him that. “Closure” is a lie, and he is the only one who could ever, ever give it to himself.

2) Ask the people who are your-friends-but-not-mutual-friends to do the same. Script: “Dear friend, I’ve asked my ex to leave me alone, but he keeps trying to find ways to contact me including reaching out to people like you. The best thing you can do to help is to block him on social media, document but don’t respond to any communications that get through, and don’t pass information  - either about me to him, or about him and his contacts to me (that’s what he wants you to do). Hopefully this behavior will die down soon as he stops getting the jolts of attention that he’s seeking, and he can focus on his own recovery. This is really sad and not a little bit scary, so thank you for your help.”

3) Mutual friends, especially someone who is his best friend,  are obviously trickier. I think if you try to keep a friendship going with these folks it has to have some parameters, like:

• We don’t discuss ex when we hang out.
• Don’t pass information about me to ex, or ex to me. Let those things be separate.
• It would be great down the road if we could all be friends again, but the stalking behavior is really freaking me out and making that feel impossible, so please, no pressure or even discussion about that right now.
• You (Letter Writer) are going to hang back from events/parties/social scene stuff where ex is likely to be for a while to give him some space so he’s not running into you everywhere. I know this is ceding “territory,” but it is actually a cool thing to do  if you know that someone is struggling with seeing you and holding it together. Sometimes it’s not about fairness, sometimes it is about this person hurting and needing to feel like there are safe spaces they can go. You already won by getting out of the relationship and being happy, you don’t have to “win” every party. I think this is also safer choice for you, unless you like looking over your shoulder for this dude and the prospect of many crying & yelling scenes at parties.

Good news, if your friendship with these folks is really a friendship that is based on mutual interests and comfort and meant to survive the long-term, it will survive these parameters. If the friendship is really about bonding over the drama of dealing with ex and being his caretakers, or if these friends help their old friend keep violating your boundaries, it will not survive them, and that will be hard and painful in the short term but ok in the longterm as everyone disengages and moves on. I am sorry you are dealing with this. You are good, you are doing everything right, and it takes a long time and a lot of perseverance to shake off an obsessed ex-partner.

Credit: Indieflix

Thankfully, Here’s That Bad Advice You Were Hoping For took on the WTF? Dear Prudence penis question. I suspect many of you will enjoy everything about that blog. For instance, this post about a creepily over-involved parent. (h/t @j_zimms)

And here is my favorite recent take on the whole question of “Zones”: Why Do Men Keep Putting Me In The Girlfriend Zone? (Thanks to SweetMachine & @autistliam, among many others,  for linking me to this, you were correct!)

And during a Twitter discussion of Jane Eyre last night (we’re all hoping Rochester died soon and left her a rich widow, so she could run off and live an awesome single life while giving exactly zero fucks, right?) someone linked me to this great piece about storytelling and stereotypes and why it matters: “We have always fought”: Changing Women, Cattle, and Slaves Narrative by Kameron Hurley. (h/t @JunebugBecky)

And now for the promotion. Running a much-visited site, I get many wack offers for “free” guest-posting services by content mills and giveaways of things you don’t want. But I think this one will be actually cool and is close to my own interests, so here it is below the jump for folks who are interested in indie film, online streaming platforms, documentaries, and/or documentaries about bullying.

Indieflix is a streaming subscription service for indie films. From their site:

For far too long, filmmakers have been forced to either sell out or starve. Thousands of brilliant, creative minds submit their works to festivals, hoping to find meaningful distribution yet fewer than 1% actually do.  We’re here to level the playing field. Founded by filmmakers, IndieFlix is part champion, part curator; our mission is to democratize distribution and provide significant revenue for filmmakers.

IndieFlix is a community of independent filmmakers and fans. Through its membership-based streaming service, IndieFlix helps filmmakers translate artistic vision into commercial success, and gives film lovers access to high quality independent films not otherwise available. IndieFlix’s mission is to champion filmmakers, rethink traditional approaches to distribution, and celebrate the artistry and impact of independent film.

They want to promote a film, Finding Kind, on the subject of girl-on-girl bullying. A description:

Filmmakers Lauren Parsekian and Molly Thompson, who met while in school at Pepperdine University, set out in a cross country journey of discovery and education.  Interviewing women and girls along the way about their lives and experiences, Parsekian and Thompson find, among all of the unique personal stories, some universal truths about growing up as girls.

Finding Kind is a document of that journey, and of the filmmakers’ quest to take these experiences and find a common ground of kindness and mutual respect.  In addition to all of the individual girls and women who share their personal experiences about girl on girl bullying with the filmmakers, Parsekian and Thompson include interviews with respected experts and authors in the fields of psychology, education, and the interrelationships of women and girls.

The film led to the Kind Campaign, which is an educational program to stop bullying in schools.

Disclosures:

• I have not tried out Indieflix yet or watched Finding Kind. I cannot tell you anything this minute about the platform or the movie. My endorsement is: It seems cool, I think they actually did research about our audience and whether we’d like this sort of thing and presented it in a thoughtful and not-pushy way.
• Must disclose: I am totally getting a free trial subscription to IndieFlix in exchange for telling you about this.
• Excited to disclose: I am also getting 10 free two-month trial IndieFlix subscriptions to give away to you. You will not have to supply credit card information to sign up. In her direct emailed words: “We will not require anyone to enter their credit card number or otherwise obligate themselves to continue after their trial period is up.”

If you’d like one of the trials, post a comment here by noon, Central Daylight Time, Wednesday, May 22nd. If more than 10 people want the memberships, I’ll use a random number generator and hand them out.

In exchange for using your eyeballs for promotional stuff so that I can use my summer to watch independent movies, feel free to use the comments of this thread to promote your own creative work/blog/Etsy shop/Kickstarter campaign.

Parameters:

• Please be a regular reader of the site.
• Please post a brief description of what it is we’ll be looking at, and use content warnings if it will be NSFW or NSFEyes in some  way. I’ve just started watching Hannibal, sucked in by Cleolinda’s awesome recaps, and the whole “NSFEyes” thing is coming back for me in a big, big way.
• Please keep it to one project.

In the meantime, work on finding us a rich benefactor so we can throw a legendary potluck.

______________________________________________________________

Hello, Awkwardeers!

How are you? It is Friday. I am grading final projects. Let’s have an open thread!

Inspired by madgastronomer’s recent sharing of a key lime pie recipe, if you feel inclined, please share a recipe that you love to make.

Ground Rules: If you read the recipe and it contains something you hate, don’t eat, or can’t eat, it would be great if you just skipped over the comment completely without comment. You can ask about substitutions, but no “Ew” or “It sounds awesome except for x ingredient, which is the food of Satan” or “well, I’m allergic so I can’t” or “Not everyone can afford to shop at Whole Paycheck.” Chances are that you’re not going to make whatever it is anyway, and those comments are just a downer for the person who shared it in the first place. Also, there will be zero diet-talk, discussion of calories, weight loss, relative healthfulness, “sinfulness,” shame, moralizing, or guilt. We can do this, I think.

If you also feel so inclined, I’d also love to know what you are reading these days that you love.

Me?

I am about 3/4 way through Swamplandia! and loving it so far. I’ve been reading a ton of Connie Willis & Octavia Butler, also.

Foodwise, I am hoping the farmer’s market has asparagus tomorrow, so I can go back to this for breakfast.

This is a standby cheap & healthy dinner, though my solo-dinner making has resembled this more often than not of late. If you make the broccoli/chickpea/tomato thing, one secret thing I figured out thanks to SweetMachineSP is that if you roast the chickpeas & broccoli (toss with olive oil, salt, and your choice of spices, spread out on a cookie sheet, roast at 400 degrees Fahrenheit for 30-40 minutes) instead of steaming it takes it to eleven.

Happy reading & eating! Happy graduation to my former students, I am proud of you! And happy weekend!

I’m in a very happy long term relationship. The biggest problem we face is we’re both introverts, and have some social anxiety along with it. It’s hard to make friends, but we’re trying. We’re very geeky, so we’re trying to get involved in geek spaces.

Next comes the big hurdle, we have diet issues. He has really bad food allergies, and I’m vegetarian. At home we’re fine, we can work around our issues, but…

Social gatherings almost always involve food. We barely eat out anymore because it’s not worth the risk of being so sick afterwards. The local cosplay group meets inside a pizza place, the local crafting group meets at a BBQ place. Going to someone’s house means feeling like entitled jerks for having to grill them on labels and cross contamination, or hoping they’re cool with us packing our own food.

There’s a cosplay meet-and-greet at a con coming up, at a restaurant where we can tell ahead of time nothing’s going to be safe. Is it rude to request it be held on the patio if that’s an option?

What are some scripts for turning down food invitations? Is there a polite way to suggest social gatherings that don’t take place somewhere that could kill him? Right now we’re both so worried about coming across as Entitled Jerks that we tend to just avoid all the gatherings that involve food, which means we don’t get out much at all. We want to make friends, but we also don’t want to get Frequent Flier points at the ER. How can we compromise?

We’re already learned that saying the specifics of the allergy means people will generally lecture us that there’s no way whatever food could contain that allergen, even if we already know it does, so it’s best to stay vague when declining invitations.

Healthy Hermit

Dear Healthy Hermit,

Since discussions of the host-guest relationship show no signs of abating, let’s continue with a theme. Social connection and food are two very primal human needs (that taste great together) and I expect this will generate a similar amount of discussion.

You mention social anxiety as part of the mix of what is going on. I am in no way qualified to address that. I generally recommend taking all emotional & mental health stuff very seriously and seeking treatment if it is interfering with your happiness and your functioning. This answer will be focused on rituals around event-planning, hosting, and food and some of the written and unwritten rules thereof. If anxiety sufferers want to weigh in with their experiences and specific workarounds in the comments, that is extremely welcome.

Let’s start with parties that are not private friends-only events at people’s houses, arranged through hobby groups, Meetup, Facebook, etc. One of the things I suggest when planning Captain Awkward meetups is that hosts think about a varied menu (both in terms of price and vegetarian options) and also about general accessibility. I think organizers so far have been doing a great job with this, and especially with choosing places that publish menus online so people can do reconnaissance ahead of time. When event-planning, there is no magic perfect place or time or menu that will make everyone happy, and I have a low tolerance for people who do not do the work of planning events or contribute anything at the planning stages and then complain later that it was not somehow perfectly tailored to them, but as a host I recommend doing some very basic work to make sure that it’s not just wealthy meatatarians with super-stairclimbing ability at your parties.

Hermit, keep a few things in mind about the groups in your town:

• It is relatively safe to assume that people who host these events want people to come and enjoy themselves. They like you just fine, they want you to be included and want to get to know you, and will reward your efforts to connect.  Bonus: You are doing all the right stuff!
• While it may not feel good inside your head, your worry that you will come across as rude or accidentally do something wrong is a pretty good sign that you are being thoughtful and considerate about your interactions, which is the basis of politeness.
• The groups meet at those places because those places have been good about accommodating large geeky groups in the past and most members have probably been happy with things. Acknowledging that there is a positive reason that they have chosen those spaces (A good patio! Lots of tables! Easy parking! Into cosplay!) will go a long way.
• In the beginning when a group is small and made up of people you directly know, you don’t have to think so much about accessibility – it is an easy and forgivable oversight for these planners to have made. They’re not eating BBQ at you.
• That said, chances are you are not alone and that other people would feel more welcome and included if there were more dietary variety on offer, so your speaking up is a kindness that you are doing both for yourself and for others.
• Constructive criticism will be best absorbed if you a) have demonstrated some investment in and connection to the group b) offer alternatives and positive suggestions.

Which means that:

“Hey Crafting Group, you always have meetings at a BBQ place and I can’t eat anything there, which is why I don’t come. Could you fix that so I can come?,” may not be received as well as “Hey, Crafting Group, could we try X venue sometime? I checked and they’d be willing to host us during this same time slot” or “Crafting group, I will be at X venue on Y day with my glitter gun. Stop by for a little while and join me?

The first is the truth, and a fair question, but the second & third answers imply that you’ve done two pieces of work:

1) Researched alternatives that would work better for you and be accessible and hospitable to others.

2) Possibly eaten a meal at home and then gone to BBQ crafting group anyway a few times to socialize and drink iced tea with these folks. And yes, this will mean a few rounds of “Don’t you want to order something?” “Naw, I’m a vegetarian, but thanks!” Before you go changing it up, go be a part of what it is now and make sure you even like these people.

Also, if you go with this approach, give it a lot of time, and give it a few tries and try it a few different ways before you give up. By “a few different ways”, I mean, there is trying to move the event & trying to host an alternative event, but there is also contacting a few members individually and inviting them out (or over) and making connections that way.

By time, I mean that Commander Logic (awesome at making friends!) and I (pretty decent at making friends!) both needed about a year of sustained effort to make close friendships after we’d moved to Chicago. I don’t want to depress you, I just want to be really honest that it is a process and that the people who look like they effortlessly have tons of people around them actually put in a lot of effort and had many lonely times.

Oh, and since you mentioned crafting, let me tell you about an awesome party one of my friends hosts periodically, known as “Zombie Craft Day” where people bring half-finished craft projects or stuff they’ve meant to get started on for a while and work on them communally. Is it time for a Zombie Craft Day where you live?

As for your specific question about the upcoming cosplay meet & greet, asking to move the event to the patio will have significantly more traction if you’ve been to one of their events and met some of the people at least once before. If this is your first time ever going and meeting these people, honestly, I would eat at home (your partner sounds like they would have to eat at home almost 100% of the time anyhow) and stick to beverages once you’re there. You’ll almost certainly get questions & pushback about why you’re not eating, and here are some ways to answer them:

“Partner is on a very strict, medically supervised diet so we ate at home. We’re really glad to meet you, though!”

“We have some strict dietary issues that means it’s often better for us to eat at home. However did you make that jolly hat?”

I strongly suggest that you not go further into detail than this, in order to head some of the interrogation off at the pass. Let people get to know you without the food stuff being the only thing they know about you, let them know up front that there is some complicated food stuff going on, and do what you can to enjoy yourself. This opens the door for next time. “Next time, could we maybe do this on the patio?” “Next time could we do it at X venue? We’ve had really good luck with the food there.“

Now let’s talk about parties at people’s houses.

I think when you are hosting a party in your house, the best policy is Your Party, Your Rules, You Can Cry If You Want To.

Example: A local friend throws a cocktail party once a year. It lasts for exactly two hours. There is a suggested dress code. There is generally one “house drink” with assorted mixers, and that drink will contain a substantial amount of booze. It is on the top floor of a building, so you will have to climb and later drunkenly lurch down many flights of stairs. Parking in the neighborhood sucks. There is a cat (who spends the party shut into one particular room). The invitation is very clear about all of these details so that people can make a good decision about whether they want to go, and if you can’t make that time slot, couldn’t get a babysitter, never take the bus or couldn’t catch a cab, have massive pet allergies, etc. you are a grownup and can decide that.

Imagine for a second that you’re invited to that particular party.

Say you personally don’t drink alcohol. By all means, go to the party, slide the thing you brought that you know that you can drink into the fridge, and have a good time.

Say you personally don’t drink. By all means, email the host and say “I don’t drink alcohol, but I really want to come. Will there be non-booze there or would it be cool if I brought x (specific thing you like to drink)?” It is okay to ask the hosts question like this, just like it was actually ok in the last letter for people with kids to initially say “The invite doesn’t specify; can we bring our kids?” Since the person invited you, they want you to be there. Go to the party and have a good time.

Say you injured yourself in a .gif creation incident and can’t climb stairs right now. By all means, decline the invitation, and perhaps follow up with the host to arrange a time to see her that is located on the ground floor of something. “I won’t make it, but are you free for lunch next week? I’d love to catch up soon.”

If you have to decline an invite, there is no obligation to give any reason at all. If you do decide to give a reason, and you’d like to be invited to something in the future, make sure you do not say anything snarky, passive-aggressive, or turn the act of not going to a party into any kind of complaint or lament or pressure.

If people are inviting you to stuff at their homes, good news! You’re doing the social interaction stuff right and they want to include you and get to know you better. Right now, we’re still talking about friendly acquaintances vs. friends, so let’s get into how you bring up dietary stuff with, say, a party where the hosts are serving a meal. Good hosts who are having you over for food/drink will generally inquire if there is any dietary stuff they should know, but even if they don’t, it is totally ok to raise it.

Email them (vastly preferable to commenting in an Evite or Facebook group) and say:

“We would love to join you! FYI, I’m a vegetarian, and partner has some pretty strict dietary stuff going on, so would it be ok if we brought x dish to share?“

Key word being “to share.” When you’re just getting to know someone*, “We brought vegan tamales, have some!” is a better proposition than “We brought weird single-serving tupperware with our own precisely measured portions of food because we don’t trust you not to try to kill us with your good intentions.” Make something delicious and simple that doesn’t require taking over the hosts’ entire kitchen to assemble and pass it around.

Now, you might encounter a SuperHost, who feels that they MUST now make something that they are SURE will be safe and want all the details. At this point you have two choices: Trust them to get it right and risk it OR say, “That is incredibly kind of you, and we’re sorry to be high maintenance! But we have to be really, really careful with it and would feel more comfortable knowing that at least one dish was 100% ok for us to eat. Why don’t we bring x thing with us, and you help us out by listing ingredients of whatever you make so we know what might be safe for us to try? We so appreciate it.”

If they push back at you after that? They are making something that is not really about them all about them, and you are not the ones who made it weird by needing to not spend the next two weeks pooping your souls out of your butts.

Here is the thing:

You get to draw bright boundaries around your own safety. You get to do that without other people’s buy-in to every detail.

Here is the other thing:

As much as this great Get Out And Meet People! initiative of yours is about finding community and people who will like and accept you, it is also about you finding people who make you happy and feel safe and good. This is not a one way audition, where they have all the power to accept or reject you and you have none. Someone who treats you poorly around food, second-guesses your food choices, belittles you around food, makes it hard for you to feel included in the group, makes your very real needs all about them, etc.  is not someone who is going to be a good friend for you.

Also keep in mind: The group is not a monolith. Somewhere in those groups there is someone who will like you and get you and want to help you. Somewhere in there is someone who, once informed of what you have going on, will back you up and help you. “Hey, guys, let’s look for a place with more vegetarian options, ok? Poor Hermit shouldn’t have to eat before s/he comes to games night.”

Now with close friends? Interrogate the restaurant choices, bring on the tupperware & scan the labels in their kitchen. They will work with you! And as you get more comfortable with people, you can start hosting gatherings in your house where you control the menu and have the social interaction you desire. You can start to change the culture of the group, where listing all ingredients on a shared dish or being more aware of diverse dietary options becomes routine.

The advice here is about how to go into new spaces and new communities with the least amount of friction possible, so you have the opportunity to connect with people and aren’t letting the health and dietary issues put you out of the mix (by, for example, avoiding things you really want to go to) before you even get started. I think it requires some work on your part, which may seem unfair and harder than it needs to be. I mean, it sucks to go to a party at a restaurant and sip water all night because there is nothing you can eat, and it sucks to have to do all the work of educating people and navigating THEIR issues with food and boundaries, and it sucks that eating someone’s bread and salt might end in an expensive and terrifying emergency room visit, so if I skipped the “Oh man, that must be really hard” part to get to the advice here is your serving of empathy.

For some hilarious writing about this issue, I recommend the salty and profane work of my friend Samantha Irby, also known as bitches gotta eat. She suffers from Crohn’s disease, and her story about attending a speed-dating event in an adult diaper is truly unforgettable.

What you should know:

• I have a way to live-preview how they look, but to actually know how they will work and if I like their functionality I have to go live with them for a bit.
• I am only using free basic templates, and since I am trying stuff out, I am not going to sink a lot of effort into messing about within them unless it’s going to become a real fixture. I know there are many talented web wizards here, but this is not in-depth “LET’S OPTIMIZE THIS!” time.
• This is a notice so you’re not weirded out when you come to the page, not a poll or a discussion. Comments on this post are closed, and I would ask that you please do not hijack question threads/topical discussions for feedback about template stuff. I’m telling you up front that it stresses me out  (even when it’s positive) more than it helps me. Please roll quietly with it for a bit and hopefully we’ll end up with something that works.

I’m working on climbing Mount Gradebook and answering another question that ties in really well to all the party/invitation/manners stuff we’ve been talking about recently. Thank you for your patience and for reading! Pardon our dust! As you were!

I have a question about RSVP etiquette and other people’s family drama.

Two other friends (A and B) and I are throwing a baby shower for a third friend (C). We’re inviting friends and any of C’s extended family who live locally and decided to throw it at A’s place, because she has the most space and the most central location. When we started getting RSVPs, a few people asked if kids were welcome, and after a discussion, A decided she wasn’t comfortable opening her home to small children she didn’t know. B and I suggested an age restriction and she agreed, so I handled these RSVPs as diplomatically as possible. And most people were really great about it!

BUT! A rather dramatic relative of C’s sent me an email RSVP with a kind of wheedling “Can my 4-y/o daughter come? She looooooves showers.” I sent her my usual response: “So glad you are coming! As for kids, we do have an age restriction — no kids under 10 — because A’s home isn’t very child friendly and we want everyone to have a safe and fun time, hope this answers your question!” I thought her response was kind of snitty (“WELL, my child is VERY WELL BEHAVED but I guess I can’t argue”). I let C know in case this relative took it out on her, and she didn’t think it would, but thanked me for handling it.

Today, C’s relative sent her a really long and dramatic email, essentially guilt-tripping her for our decision not to let kids at the shower, and saying that their grandmother (who is coming) would be very disappointed in C if she let us ban her child from coming since she never got to see her, and why won’t C intercede? C’s response nicely but firmly backed me and A up, and she let us know in case her relative made further trouble for A, B, and me.

I am so irritated that this woman went behind my back and hassled my sweet, 8-mos pregnant friend AND made sweet, accommodating A feel like a shit all in one swell foop. 

So, what the hell, Captain? 

1) Is it unreasonable not to welcome children to a baby shower? I love kids — I am a teacher and a doting auntie, after all — but I think we are within our rights here to make this grownups only.

2) If this woman contacts me again, what can I say that is both polite but firm, without contributing to further family drama for C? I literally do not know this relative. 

3) No, seriously, WHAT THE HELL?

Let me tell you “What the hell”-

You guys handled this correctly by figuring out your own boundaries and making them clear to people, and your friend C. handled this correctly by backing you up. Traveling Grandma wants to see four  year old on her visit? Not your problem. Grandma “never gets to see her?” REALLY not your problem, or C’s problem. Mother of four year old needs to possibly make childcare arrangements so that she can attend? Not your problem.* If the mom of the four year old decided that she doesn’t want to go to an event unless she can bring her daughter? Cool. Not your problem. You guys focus on throwing a nice party for your friend, and let other people work out their family stuff. I assume that as a family they know how to call each other and arrange get-togethers, and C. sounds like she’s pretty great at the boundaries stuff.

If this lady contacts you again (!), one strategy is just to ignore it. She’s been told “no,” what, at least two or three times? And there is nothing you can say that won’t create drama – she’s already creating the drama and that’s not on you. I mean, is this a 24-hour shower, with all participants locked into a room for the duration? There is no time that Grandma couldn’t visit with the little girl before or afterward? Someone is lacking perspective here, and it isn’t you.

What you actually need to prepare yourself for is this: There is a strong chance that she will bring the little girl anyway. A coloring book and a set of washable, non-toxic crayons might be a better investment than asking a guest (no matter how importunate) to leave a party, even if you’d be within your rights to do so.

I hope it’s a good time, and that it is drama-free.

In general, when someone invites you to an event and stipulates some things about that event (start & end time, location, dress code, financial expectations, are kids welcome, etc.) you get to decide if this is in fact the event for you. It’s okay, if the invitation doesn’t specify either way, to ask for clarification. For example, the people who initially asked you if children were welcome were not out of line! My friends with small children are pretty great at saying “We’d love to come if we can get a babysitter” or “Could we do it at our house instead, so we don’t have to get a babysitter?” and everyone works it out. Sometimes I have this issue not with kids but with money, as in, I’d love to go to that amazingly-planned bachelorette dinner, but $50 + drinks + cabfare home to the Sunny South Side isn’t in my budget right now, so I must decline and trust that I will see my friends another day/another way. I think the people who get really hung up on This Particular Event are people who don’t trust the strength of their relationships and treat every interaction or event like a referendum on how much they are loved. That’s not something you, kind not-related-to-these-people party thrower, can really solve for them. Parties shouldn’t be guilt-fests.

*I’ve known marrying couples who have guests with kids coming in from out of town for the wedding to help arrange childcare so that the parents can come to a no-kids party, which is a very nice thing to do if you can swing it! But it’s not a requirement, and it’s definitely not even close to a requirement here.

And my friend & colleague Megan’s amazing essay “Channel B” will be featured in a volume of Best American Essays. Go read it, it is about being a new mom during a Chicago winter and becoming obsessed with the neighbor’s baby and is so, so good.

Let’s make this a thread by new parents, for new parents. What’s awkward? What’s awesome? I know Commander Logic can’t be the only one of you out there.

NO:

• Gross poop pictures
• Judging other people’s parenting choices or getting into arguments with other posters about parenting styles/methods/philosophies.
• Pressure to describe every moment as #$%&ing magical. If something is terrible? You can tell us that it’s terrible. We will get that you still love your child and are doing your best to be a good parent.
• If you’re not a parent, this isn’t your thread. That’s cool. It’s not really my thread either. Other threads will be your thread.

YES:

• Photos of your cute babies
• Gross poop stories

Obviously, not all crushes need to be acted on or acknowledged. Sometimes crushes are there to light up your day, remind you of some aspect of yourself or humanity that you admire, or motivate you to brush your hair before you leave the house.

But some crushes are people who might put their pretty faces on your pretty face…if you asked them nicely.

What kind of crush is your crush? Are you gonna do something about it?