Careers Out There Host Marc Luber: Hey everyone, in today’s episode of Careers Out There we’re going to explore careers in marketing. We’re going to be talking to my old friend Michael Edelstein who is the VP of marketing and licensing at a global toy manufacturer. In case this is your first time, in every episode of Careers Out There we explore a career path by talking to a real professional who does that kind of work. They tell us what it’s really like, how to break in and how to succeed. All to help you decide if it’s the kind of path that you want to pursue. I’m your host Marc Luber and today’s going to be a real good show because Michael’s been in marketing since the mid-nineties so he’s got a lot to share. Stick around. [Music] Okay, we’re back! Michael welcome to Careers Out There.

Marketing Expert Michael Edelstein: Thanks Marc, this is a dream of mine to be here so I’m excited.

Host Marc Luber: Excellent, glad you’re here! So Michael I want you to tell everybody what do you as a VP of marketing and licensing. I’m excited to hear about that, I’m sure everyone else is too. But first I want you to explain to us what you and I were talking about over the phone about the differences between consumer marketing and product marketing.

Michael Edelstein: Okay, well consumer marketing is probably what most people would think of as marketing: it’s doing commercials, it’s putting together ad programs. Nowadays, it’s digital marketing, it’s reaching the customers. So who is your consumer, and in our case we do toys so we’re talking to moms or little kids, maybe 2 to 5 year olds and what’s that message and how are you going out and reaching them and really marketing your products to them? Product marketing is kind of the same thing but it’s more – I’m developing a product, what is the message I want to tell on the product, what are the features. One of the single most important things you do in terms of marketing when you are into consumer products is your packaging. How you are designing your packaging and mainly in the toy businesses how are you selling features like what’s the most important feature in an item. How do you decide what that most important feature is until you’re developing the product based on what we consider to be the insights of what is that consumer looking for and really I would say that the product marketing really decides how are you designing that product to appeal to your end consumer. Whereas, consumer marketing is more traditional: how am I going to get them then to buy it after that. If that makes sense?

Luber: Yeah, totally makes sense and then as a VP of Marketing and licensing what aspects of those things that you just discussed are you overseeing?

Michael Edelstein: Well, most of the time I’m probably involved in almost any of them. We really market and manage in my group the brands or the different product lines that we have and so we spend a lot of time really on the product so we really start and we’re working with designers and we’re working with graphics people and we’re working with Project Managers to help them essentially take an idea for a product or a product line and bring it from beginning to end so that it could be put on the shelf. So we spend a lot of time really managing that process, understanding that process, coming up with the insights. So what is a mom interested in? What are the trends on the market? What’s your competition doing? What is competition doing in other categories? And then how can you bring that into the product to try and be fresh and exciting and new and then how do you build out that whole line? Because it’s again in the toy business it’s not really just one item it’s a series of items that you have to put together and then make a line and come up with what your objectives are and what’s the price that you want it to be. So I’m kind of involved in making sure everything is happening on every basis, everyday in that thing. So it’s quite encompassing but it also keeps it fresh and exciting and fun.

Luber: What would you say then if you can give an example? What would you say a good example of something you’ve done I think hearing an example will help the audience. Like what type of toy would you be working on when you’re going out and doing the analysis and seeing what other people are selling, give us an example.

Michael Edelstein: Sure, one of the things that I’ve spent a lot of time working on over my career is Thomas the Tank Engine who most people probably might remember, your audience probably remembers from when they were kids I would think and we’ve been making those and wooden trains or die cast trains over many years. So one of the things when you have a brand is all these Thomas’s and how do you keep them new and fresh and exciting each and every year ‘cause we’ve been making as a company for over 20 years. So you have to go and understand what are the products – are there new characters, are there new stories that you want to tell, is there new type of destination or a place that he’s going to visit and then how do you take that and translate into any type of product or product line that you are putting together. So every year we’re going to introduce a new line of products – some in spring, some in the fall, probably will be 20 to 30 products so we come up with our list of ideas that are related to a show like Thomas or Bob the Builder or whatever and we say okay we are going to do Scoop and Muck and so on and maybe this year instead of doing them just basic vehicles we’re going to make them all remote control or we are going to make them wind up so any type of feature or and that’s really interesting what does the mom want to pay. How much are they interested in something like that – how are they going to make it new and fresh and exciting so we’ll start in that respect and you’ll slowly kind of then develop those products and also figure out what’s the packaging. How are we going to package it differently. So the goal for existing lines is how do you keep it new and exciting and fresh each and every year and to keep moms coming back and also to keep retailers excited about what you’re doing as well cause they really are customers at the end of the day.

Luber: Right, for sure so if they don’t carry it then no one can buy it.

Michael Edelstein: Right.

Luber: Since most of the people watching aren’t going to walk in as a VP of Marketing and Licensing, what are some of the roles that would be below you or some of the more entry level jobs and maybe a step above that that people can be getting. What would they actually be doing?

Michael Edelstein: That’s actually how I started. I started as an Associate Brand Manager at my first company and really the difference is it was probably a more focused part of the job but I was a Brand Manager or Marketing Manager that’s sometimes referred to as. And that’s somewhat of an entry level job, you’d probably come in at the Associate level and there you probably are assigned to a single brand, whereas now I look over 10 or 12 different brands. So that’s really one of the things that changes over time, it’s just more responsibility or a wider set of responsibilities, but the core thing is the same and really when I was an Associate Brand Manager the same things that appeal to me now are what appealed to me then, which is really the creative process of coming up with ideas and how do you bring them and tell that story to moms and kids. One thing you’re doing when you’re kind of in the marketing role is you are leading a lot of other departments. You may not have all those people reporting to you but you’re interfacing with the Project Manager or Graphics Designer or Product Designer or Sales Person. So you’re trying to keep everyone on the same page and with the same goal to try and get what you want sold or done or put together. And that’s a fun thing as you get to kind of control a lot of things as you’re the center of the wheel so to speak, and then you also get this whole process of bringing the products from beginning to end, that you kind of own, and you’re going to own the business type then and so on and so forth. That’s one way – Product Manager is another way – product manager is more going to be the person who is following the timeline to bring the product to market, so they’re responsible for the dates or they’re responsible for making sure the product’s at the right cost and they’re responsible for working with the factory to get the cost back and forth so that’s another way is through the Product Manager side and you can enter that as an entry level. You can be a junior designer and those are the people who draw and some engineer or kind of come up with the concepts of the product – that’s another way to get in.

Luber: So people can come from a lot of different backgrounds. You can study a lot of different things before you come in.

Michael Edelstein: Yeah. So those are kind of all of the different areas on a team that I might run that someone might be interested in getting in – and the exciting thing is collaboration – everyone’s working together to get to that goal. It’s not something for someone who wants to be on their own, it’s for someone who likes to be part of a team and work as a team and get joy out of that. I think it’s a really important part of it.

Luber: And this wouldn’t just apply to toy companies – there could be cereal companies, shampoo companies. Right?

Michael Edelstein: Oh yeah. I think it’s very similar. I mean every company or every type of company – bigger companies or smaller companies, they all work obviously differently but that idea is all going to be pretty much the same principal, no matter what type of business you are in.

Luber: Yeah, yeah now you know I like what you said about the center of the wheel. Because when I first moved to Los Angeles and I worked at A&M Records – I was in the marketing department and everything kind of revolved around the marketing department, and it was our role to interact with every single department at the company and keep everyone on their timeline to make sure that everything was moving smoothly getting the project out there and then once it was out there that it was moving forward until it got into the hands of our consumers.

Michael Edelstein: Yeah. That’s what it’s all about. That’s the fun part about it so if you like that kind of stuff you are going to love it. You’ve got to be entrepreneurial, which is a big thing! You got to really want to be a go-getter and drive yourself through but it’s a lot of fun when you can do that kind of stuff.

Luber: Is there any other detail you want to share about the actual development of a product?

Michael Edelstein: The actual development of a product can be very tedious – it takes …. a product can take 2 years to develop from the time…..A lot of my background was in the movie business before I got into the toy business which everyone’s always like, “well how does that fit together” or whatever. And it’s actually very similar, but the idea of developing a product and developing a movie all kind of fit the same kind of beats and rhythm of their own. They take a long time to do, you have your pre-production, you come up with your concept which is the same as kind of writing a script or coming up with an idea, you go into production or pre-production which is like coming up with the prototype of a model or how it functions and selling it. And then you have the whole production time which happens in the factory or on a shoot and then when you’re done you put it out there for people to see and view and that’s kind of the fun. I guess the ego side of it is – it’s always fun to walk into a store and see someone shopping with your product or you see them walking around in the airport and kids are carrying around your products and so that’s kind of the fun thing that makes this a little bit more different than some of the other things out there.

Luber: And is the licensing part of your job…. is that because are you licensing characters from movies and turning those into toys?

Michael Edelstein: Yeah. Most of what I’ve done is through TV shows, but yeah, in this business and really consumer products and the entertainment business fit together – if I could go on, because almost anything: cups, shampoo, almost anything has a license on it. Obviously in toys that’s kind of the lead side of it where you see there are a lot of characters but yet I go and I get to look at different properties and we then will go pay a fee or eight percent of our sales to that company and then we get to use their characters in our product as well.

Luber: So when you say you go and look at different properties – are you going and watching different TV shows, going to TV conventions to see what new shows are coming out? How does that work?

Michael Edelstein: Well we’re meeting with the studios a lot, there’s a trade show called the Licensing Show once a year where all the studios and development companies come and present all their different properties. But a lot of it is, is like anything you got to get out there and be talking to people a lot and get to know what’s coming and it’s pretty…. I do watch a lot of kids TV, unfortunately I had two kids now they’re probably…. they think they’re a little too old to watch with me, but for years I’ve been watching Sesame Street and Nickelodeon and Disney Channel, seeing what’s good and what’s not good. And you do that even on stuff that the competition’s doing because you want to know, and again the most important thing is to know what’s going on, you want to always be a step ahead of everyone and what you think they’re going to do or might do.

Luber: So what really sounds good about this is that it’s a great path for people with a creative spirit and for people who can also appreciate business, right? Tell us about the different skill sets and personality types that really make a good fit for this path.

Michael Edelstein: Ah yeah there’s a tug of war again. Being in marketing you’re exposed to so many different skill sets and personality types because you’re dealing with designers who are very creative types. And creative types are very different than Product Managers who, most of the time, are very straight forward, compartmentalized, linear type of people. So it really depends on what you want be in, I guess, but again that’s one of the big fun things about it is molding personalities together and getting everyone to function as a team. When you do have such diversion in personalities, it’s really a challenge and it can be frustrating with a lot of things but it makes it a lot of fun because you’re seeing different things and you’re exposed to different things. But more to your question in terms of balancing the business side and the creative side, I mean that makes it fun because you don’t want to…. If you’re too focused on one thing, in my opinion, then it just gets boring. So I like the variety! I like that I can sit in sales calls and talk to the buyers and learn, try and pitch them on our ideas as well as looking at the numbers and stressing a lot of times about what if you’re going to make your numbers and the next hour we can be having a meeting talking about what’s the next big idea for 2013 or 2014. So it kind of all blends together from any different day or any different hour which I think really makes it a lot of fun.

Luber: I love it. I love it. What about education? What type of different educational paths do people come from? I mean you went to Film School, but not everyone has to go to film school.

Michael Edelstein: Ah, no, no, no, I probably took the most circuitous route because I was an English Major and I probably picked up the business side much later than most people in my position. I think the traditional thing would be someone who is in business. But I do think enhancing that creative side – because it’s not just – toys are one thing and that allows you to be creative, but before that I was marketing video head cleaners back when there were actually videos, right? So that shows you how long ago that was, but that was the first really creative project and it’s all about – how do you find a point of difference in it? And that’s how you create products, is what’s your point of difference, and how are you going to let people know about that? So I think you need to have a good business instinct but you want to have somewhat of a creative instinct and there’s entrepreneur types of classes that, I think, are offered now in schools. So it doesn’t have to be anyone’s background but I do think having a strong understanding in business is a really good starting point.

Luber: What about college? Is college necessary? Do you think that people can go from high school straight into this kind of a path or do you see companies like yours requiring college degrees?

Michael Edelstein: I think you definitely need a college degree. Just to have some of the fine understandings of certain things and just kind of the basic principles. We take interns mostly that are in college, I don’t think we’ve had any high school interns. But I think that’s a tough jump maturity-wise and just experience-wise to go straight, straight in that path. But the big question I always get is “do you need business school”? There’s a yes and a no. I think it depends who you talk to. It certainly helps in like this kind of business if you want to get into marketing or whatever to have an MBA. I think it helps in terms of just getting to the jobs that you might want quicker. I feel I never had that! I had a Masters of Fine Arts and I had some business background in that. So that helped me a little bit but I think my work experience has been my school experience so to speak. So, yes, college in terms of graduate, I would say that’s 50/50 it just really depends on the individual person.

Luber: Right. So in some cases that you see people kind of get to jump start their careers as a result to getting their MBA.

Michael Edelstein: I think so. I probably wish I had it in some ways years ago but it’s all about the person but yeah I mean obviously one of the nice things about having an MBA or having a college degree is it buys you a certain amount of credibility to start and that’s – once that’s done once you’re in it’s all up to how much drive or personality or intelligence the individual person has.

Luber: Right okay. And what about classes? Are there any certain classes that you think people should take whether they are in high school or college that could help prepare them? It sounds like such a wide variety of things can funnel into this path.

Michael Edelstein: Accounting I think would help just basic…… a lot of stuff that I didn’t even think to take when we were at school so like just basic business classes …… introductory….just understanding the principles of business. And nowadays, I think there’s product development classes that you can take and there’s design. I mean there’s so much more out there than we were probably exposed to so, I would say if there’s a product development class that’s good to know and understand. There’s things that you can understand about working in China ‘cause no matter what industry you’re in pretty much you have to understand the Asian market. It wouldn’t hurt if you knew how to speak Chinese. Those are some good parts and that has nothing to do with my business – I just think that’s global business in general.

Luber: And you travel there pretty often! Don’t you go about once a year, to China?

Michael Edelstein: Yeah I go to China about once a year I go to Japan once or twice a year so and that’s the other fun part is if you can get into a business and really understand the global nature but that’s a lot of fun because again it’s all about……. what I like about it is meeting different personalities and then when you top that and on top of learning completely different cultures that’s really cool, right? That’s the satisfying…… one of the most satisfying things about that is really getting to understand and the challenge of understanding a new culture or person who speaks a different language.

Luber: For sure, for sure. Tell us then this, the actionable advice to break in! For everyone that’s watching that’s all excited and hearing what you’re saying and they want to do what Michael does. What would you tell them they can do to break into this path?

Michael Edelstein: Well, it’s funny because I kind of backed into getting into the toy business but one of the things was…. this was something when I got out of being in the entertainment business and moved back to Chicago and I was looking for something that really met my kind of creative drive and I found an ad it was back when there were blind ads in the papers like “toy company”. So I was like “Oh my God that’s pretty cool” because you don’t see toy companies a lot. And pretty much I applied blindly and then it literally took me almost 3 years from the time that I applied till I got a job and I just persistently went at them because this was something…… I had a different job at that time so this was what I saw as my next step up or something. I thought I can really do something great with my career and I was like this is what I want to do and I found the contact there, I interviewed for a couple of different positions and I was just highly persistent and passionate. I think you got to show passion for almost anything you do in order to drive through and just keep networking and take advantage of all the great technology that’s out there and allow kids to network and meet other people.

Luber: Would you tell people to think about what type of product it it is that they really want to sell and then pursue the companies that sell those types of products and then work their way into marketing there? Is that the best way to go about it?

Michael Edelstein: That’s one way. That’s kind of what I did so I mean there are so many different ways to do it. The other way is just to say I’m going to be a marketer you get the education that ties you to that and then you go and you’re just applying for any type of brand management or marketing assistant type of, associate type of role and that might lead you to a company, if you’re in Chicago, like Kraft, if you’re lucky or UniLever or places like that, that are a little more varied. Or you can say “oh my gosh my dream is always to be”… I grew up as a kid loving toys. I rode my bike to Toys r Us at times so when I saw that I can actually go work for a toy company and I was like “Oh this is my calling” so to speak. So I think it depends on who the person is. Either you like the discipline or you’re energized by a certain type of opportunity and then you got to go after it. So, I think my advice would be in your early search days think of what drives you but if you want to be a marketing person because as much as I enjoy what I do I think I would still enjoy it if I was marketing something like insurance or shaving cream, that’s just because it’s all the same things, the elements. So go and find those opportunities and search them out wherever they could be and then eventually you’ll get to the products you love no matter what.

Luber: And the emails that I can see myself getting here are going to be – what can I do to position myself so that I look good to an employer? As a VP you’ve looked at resumes, you’ve interviewed people. What is it that you want to see from someone, especially at a lower level, like coming right out of college or maybe it’s the 3 years of work experience now they’re trying to jump in. What kind of thing would you want to see them showing in their resume and interview?

Michael Edelstein: I think on a resume you would show that you have the college education, you’ve taken a certain variety of marketing classes and stuff like that so I know if someone’s coming in is going to have the competence to do basic things right. But I think if I’m meeting the person, again this is all specific to my business, I want to see someone who is passionate and lives for this type of thing. I want to see people who are coming in knowing our products from the moment they interview with me knowing what we do, having ideas, having energy telling me about how it relates back to their childhood. I want to see that kind of drive and just excitement – kind of glimmer in people – that’s when I know I’m hiring someone who really is going to be just great.

Luber: Because they are going to love it and then on the days of work that are crappy because there are always crappy days that person is going to fight through it because of the passion and all the other stuff.

Michael Edelstein: Yeah, I mean and you got a…. especially like – you can’t always work for the big companies that have the billions of dollars to market and advertize and everything. So like the smaller companies I’ve worked for, you got to have someone whose passionate and going to do everything they can to come up with ideas to make their products and their business work as well as they can. So you can’t always judge that in a meeting but you want to have people who are, it doesn’t mean they have to be crazy bouncing off the wall people, you just….. you can tell someone’s just going to be excited and happy and love what they do and it’s rare. That’s why I like the toy business because it’s rare to find something that you love to do and I really genuinely love what I do. I love my job – like I’ve had maybe 10 days that I’ve driven to work in 15 years where I go like “Oh God I don’t want to go to work today”. Right so.

Luber: That’s a rare thing – that’s a special thing, yeah, and that’s why I encourage everyone at Careers Out There that watches that I encourage people to find those kind of jobs, put in the time and the research into watching these videos and tuning your research to figure out what really fits you so you could be excited to go to work every day. I mean that’s huge. Who shouldn’t go to this? Weed some people out. What is the biggest challenge of this path – the thing that if you can’t handle this then this path isn’t really for you, you shouldn’t even go down this path?

Michael Edelstein: If you can’t handle working in groups or don’t know how to kind of work through groups if you can’t handle, if you want to say “well I need to know these 5 people report to me in order to do my job”, well you got to learn how to manage without being having people report to you – that’s really important and in this type of job. I think….

Luber: Everyone’s opinion counts. Not always thinking “I’m above you” therefore whatever, right?

Michael Edelstein: Well, there’s a lot of people are like, “well I need them to do this job but they don’t report to me so I can’t do anything about it”. You got to have someone who knows how to work with people to motivate everyone around you to do a good job whether they are on your team specifically or they are your direct report or not. But I think working in a team…. someone who doesn’t like to work in a team isn’t going to love this type of business that much. I think people who like working and collaborating are, on the other hand, really going to love it.

Luber: Right.

Michael Edelstein: But I think if you are isolated I don’t think the marketing role is going to fit you – a designer might fit you. I mean it depends on the different types of people but I would say in terms of the marketing role you’ve got to have someone who loves, loves to collaborate, loves to be part of a team and loves to be part of a bigger process.

Luber: I want you to close us out with some keys to success. Make sure you look at the camera! What are some things for the people who break in so they can kick butt once they get in, what are some things that people can do to really kick butt – keys to success for this path in marketing?

Michael Edelstein: Keys to success are again passion, showing your passion, driving your passion, no matter what it is. If you’re going to go make cereal for a living, so to speak, work for Kelloggs or General Mills or one of those. Go live your days in Jewel or Target and so on. Watching how people buy cereal, shop cereal, really just be passionate, understand it, know it better than anyone else could possibly know that business. I think that’s what’s really going to make you successful is being that expert, getting the credibility that you are the expert, once you have that credibility you can get away with a lot of things. People are going to trust what you say. You’re going to earn that trust. So having that drive and to push yourself to really be expert on stuff like that is so important to this type of business. Just rounding your overall skills, understanding basic accounting and basic business principles – that’s going to help you – and understanding people really well is going to help you because you want to understand your consumer well and you want to understand the people who are going to work with you. So I think if you can do those three things you’ve got a great head start over anyone. At least if you work for me.

Luber: Hey I love cereal by the way, big fan of cereal.

Michael Edelstein: I do too. Captain Crunch.

Luber: Captain Crunch, Crunch Berries. I hope this is helpful all you guys please leave….

Michael Edelstein: King Vitamin.

Luber: What’s that?

Michael Edelstein: King Vitamin.

Marc Luber: King Vitamin! I don’t know what that is…

Michael Edelstein: Quisp!

Marc Luber: Oh yeah, that! I remember that! So please leave feedback questions and comments you guys in comments section in careersoutthere.com below the video. Michael thanks so much for joining us.

Michael Edelstein: Thanks Marc this was a lot of fun. I’ll have to come up with another career so I can come back.

Luber: Exactly change careers. You guys you can find episodes of Careers Out There, on iTunes, YouTube, BlipTV and of course at CareersOutThere.com. Thanks again for watching everybody, I’m Marc Luber and look forward to seeing you again soon. Take care.
©2012 Careers Out There

What Do Biomedical Engineers Do 0:58-7:14
Bioengineering Careers 7:14-12:14
Education for Biomedical Engineering 12:14-15:36
Rewards and Challenges of Bioengineering Careers 19:57-26:05
Becoming a Biomedical Engineer 26:05-30:42
Keys to Success for Bioengineering Careers 30:42

Careers Out There Host Marc Luber: Hey everyone – on today’s episode of Careers Out There, we’re gonna explore careers in biomedical engineering. We’ll be talking to Amy Patel – she’s a biomedical engineer in the pharmaceutical industry in San Francisco. Amy’s so passionate about what she does that she started the Biomedical Engineering Blog, designed to help teach others about this subject. You can find that site at AmyShah.com. That’s Amy S-h-a-h dot com. On every episode of Careers Out There, we explore a career path by talking to a real professional who does that kind of work. They tell us what it’s really like and then share all kinds of advice to help you decide if it’s a path that you want to pursue. I’m your host Marc Luber and I’m really psyched to be learning about this cutting-edge career path today. It’s gonna be a great show so stick around! [theme song] Amy, welcome to Careers Out There!

Biomedical Engineer Amy Patel: Thanks Marc, I’m happy to be here.

[WHAT DO BIOMEDICAL ENGINEERS DO starts at 0:58]
Host Marc Luber: Thanks for being here. So Amy, biomedical engineering is such a cutting-edge path, and everything I’m reading about it is saying that it’s really just kind of developing now and coming into its own as its own field. So first I want to say that that makes for a great opportunity for our viewers because if anyone’s really thinking about getting into this, it’s always good to be getting into things that are new and growing because that leaves a lot of room for upward mobility, which is awesome! Let’s first start by you telling us what biomedical engineering is.

Amy Patel: Biomedical engineering is the application of engineering principles and applied sciences to medicine, the human body and the way that biology works to create life.

Luber: So can you give us some examples of biomedical engineering in action? And tell us some applications that would relate to our lives so we could all understand it.

Amy Patel: Definitely! One of the things that I think is the coolest is the DaVinci. It’s a robot that actually performs surgeries, and that is a HUGE biomedical engineering accomplishment. Some other things that you may have heard of are tissue engineering, artificial organs, stem cell research, and also pharmaceutical development of drugs like synthetic drugs that are made purely in the lab, not from things like plants or other animals.

Luber: Wow. So I assume this field must be really important to, let’s say, veterans coming home from Iraq and Afghanistan, right?

Amy Patel: Definitely. Things like artificial limbs made out of artificial organs really help a lot of veterans that come back into this country after injuries.

Luber: This all sounds so cool. Tell us some ways that this plays out in real life. Some more examples so that everyone at home who’s never dealt with biomedical engineering could relate to it and can understand it.

Amy Patel: Yeah, definitely! There’s so many different things that you could do to help society. For example, in Europe there was a 21 year-old that lost both of his arms by being electrocuted. So basically, biomedical engineers surgically implanted electronic arms on to him and he was able to live normally. He was able to brush his hair, to drive his own car that was designed for him and everything. So that’s something that really helps people all around the world. Other things are like stem cell treatments. There’s different types of adult stem cell or embryonic stem cell treatments that help people with all sorts of diseases. And we still haven’t even unlocked all of the potentials within that yet. My favorite is tissue engineering. I used to do tissue engineering research where I did a triple-cell culture, an actual respiratory tract of a person. So that could basically in the person help people with asthma breathe better and things like that – it’s really limitless in this industry. It’s amazing. We’re just scratching the surface of it. And being a part of it you could really help people later on in your life.

Luber: So tissue engineering – tell me if this is an example of tissue engineering. I recently heard a story, and I believe it was rock star Keith Richard’s wife had like a fake bladder made because she had bladder cancer. But it wasn’t just like a bag, you know they used to I think just throw a bag in there, like if your colon was removed you’d get a colostomy bag or something. And my understanding is that this is actually like an artificial bladder but made out of her own body, her own cells. Is that tissue engineering? [Patti Hansen Richards actually had a “neobladder” created from her intestines.]

Amy Patel: That’s definitely called tissue engineering with use for artificial organs. So just to go a little bit off that example, putting just a bag in your body is not gonna help. It’s not gonna expand and contract like a normal bladder. It has limits. So that’s a disadvantage of using something like that. And then if you transplant an organ from another person, you know your body could reject it because your blood and your cells are different from that person. So artificially creating an organ is creating so that it will stay within your body and also act like similarly to a normal organ in your body instead of just a bag like for a bladder. So yes, that’s definitely a great example of artificial organs and tissue engineering and you know, maybe even stem cell implantation in the future.

Luber: Wow. It’s so cool. So tell us this then – what specifically is a biomedical engineer doing when it comes to tissue engineering? How are they applying what they’ve learned and what’s going on in a lab?

Amy Patel: That is a great question. A biomedical engineer can be involved and different biomedical engineers would be involved in different steps of the process of that example you used. So for example, there may be biomedical engineers working on the actual research of it in the lab that are creating that and then there would be the next step, which would be creating it for that specific person, which is different for different people. Because it’s not in a lab setting, it’s gonna go into a real person. And then another part is during the surgery, implanting that into the person, there may be a biomedical engineer present watching or making sure that the organ or whatever they’ve created is acting as it’s supposed to both before it gets in to the body and after it gets in to the body. So there’s a lot of different steps that go on in the process.

Luber: Wow. And then I would assume that the odds of any kind of rejection like when you get a transplanted organ are way smaller when it’s being done this way, right?

Amy Patel: Definitely! You can check that out on my website too. I’ve got a lot of blog articles about reducing the rejection of transplanted organs by using artificial organs. And also there’s not as many donors as people who need organs so artificial organs are definitely in very high demand.

Luber: Wow. And what’s stopping all of these things from being so commonplace. All this stuff that you guys are doing? What’s stopping it from being everywhere?

Amy Patel: There’s a couple things. One of the biggest things is ethics. A lot of people are still scared and not as well educated about stem cells. They don’t understand that it doesn’t necessarily have to come from an embryo. There are adult stem cells or you know, even stem cells in your body that you could use for yourself. So there’s a couple different things about that and then another thing is just research. We’re so like I said, scratching the surface. We’re getting there. We’re getting there slowly but surely. So there’s a lot of trials that need to be done on both animals and people before all these things can be available on the market to everybody.

Luber: So when we hear about things like cloning – cloning of cows or cloning of sheep – is that being done by biomedical engineers?

Amy Patel: Definitely. That’s one of the biggest reasons that biomedical engineering became a separate field from chemical or mechanical engineering – it’s because of cloning.

[BIOENGINEERING CAREERS starts at 7:14]
Luber: Wow. So you were telling me over the phone that there’s a lot of subfields of biomedical engineering and I was reading about that even on Wikipedia – they were mentioning that there’s so many subfields. Can you tell us about some of those?

Amy Patel: Yeah – definitely! Some of the subfields are nanotechnology which is the study of really, really tiny particles of fluid motions. Then of course there’s tissue engineering, research, there’s actual engineering paths where you can go into like quality engineering, reliability engineering, safety, etc, etc. So tons of things that you can go into that can spark your interests. Even people like mechanical engineers and chemical engineers often go into the field of biomedical engineering because of the diversity.

Luber: Oh wow, OK. And then you were telling me even that someone could be a sales person because they could combine their personality with their technical skills? Is that right?

Amy Patel: Yes! Biomedical engineers make great sales people for pharmaceutical products or medical devices because they could actually explain how the product works in real life since they come from that industry and they have that background knowledge of whatever they’re selling.

Luber: OK, wow. You know first, I want to tell the audience too that I’m a total science idiot. So just in case anyone’s hearing that I’m not questioning certain things or that I’m glossing over certain things, that’s because some of this does go over my head because I am a science idiot! So I just want to make that clear in case someone’s wondering. You told me over the phone that there’s a certain goal that so many people have that enter this field. I thought this was REALLY interesting. Tell everybody what that goal is.

Amy Patel: Yeah, a really common thing that you’ll see in this industry no matter what subfield you go into is that people are really trying to better society through their work. Whether it’s through drugs, through artificial limbs, through research that they’re doing, it’s really to help the betterment of mankind or, you know, help people with cancer or Alzheimer’s disease, aging, things like that. It’s a really inspirational field where you can really feel like you’re making a difference in the world.

Luber: And is that what led you to this path?

Amy Patel: That’s definitely the first thing that attracted me to this industry.

Luber: Wow! Very cool! So tell us then what YOU do and what your role is in biomedical engineering.

Amy Patel: Great! Right now I’m a reliability engineer at a pharmaceutical company. So we help manufacture drugs for chronic illnesses such as rheumatoid arthritis, cancer, diseases that stunt child growth, things like that. Basically long-term lifelong diseases where people need these drugs to live.

Luber: Wow. And what does reliability engineer mean? What does a reliability engineer do?

Amy Patel: What I do as a reliability engineer is I make sure that all of the big machines that are creating these drugs like fermenters, boilers, all of these huge machines are working properly to manufacture the drugs perfectly to every single tiny microgram that’s being manufactured.

Luber: Wow. So are you like a mechanic in a sense?

Amy Patel: I’m not a mechanic but I do analyze all the data to make sure that the mechanics are keeping up with their maintenance properly on the equipment and if a piece of equipment does fail, I do things like a root cause analysis to make sure that the equipment is performing properly or to see if we need to purchase new equipment in order to manufacture the drugs properly for our patients.

Luber: OK. It’s like the car dealer kind of. Ha!

Amy Patel: Ha. Kind of.

Luber: You have to make sure everything is running properly, take it in, get it checked… Tell us about a typical day for biomedical engineers –you can take into account what you do and then also what you know about some of the other fields – if there’s some commonalities that we can talk about.

Amy Patel: So a typical day in my field as a reliability engineer at a pharmaceutical company is I do attend a lot of meetings to represent my knowledge base and my technical knowledge. I also do a lot of data analysis on the computer and generate a lot of reports and recommendations for people to move forward with what they’re doing to ensure that the quality of our products is what we’re promising. Other biomedical engineers can be involved in things like day-to-day research, many meetings representing their technical base, grant writing to raise money for their company or the organization that they’re working for, and also a lot of things that people do is giving presentations on what they’re doing. There’s a lot of different things you could do based on if you prefer to work on your own or as part of a large team. A lot of things that we do is being part of a project to make sure that we represent the human body and the engineering principles correctly. A lot of the mechanical engineers or other marketing people that work on these things don’t understand what goes on in the human body and the engineering principles behind like fluid dynamics or other things that affect the end products.

Luber: Hmm. So then you’d say that there’s a lot of variety within each day. It’s not like you’re just sitting at a desk. You’re doing a lot of different things within a day.

Amy Patel: Definitely. That’s what I love – that I could do something different every day. But another good thing about it in going into this industry is whether you like working individually or as part of a team or presenting to people, you could pick what you like to do and go into that job eventually based on your interests.

Luber: OK. So then there’s really something for everybody!

Amy Patel: Yeah, definitely! I think so.

[EDUCATION FOR BIOMEDICAL ENGINEERING CAREERS starts at 12:14]
Luber: That’s really good. Let’s talk about high school. What should someone like in school if they want to go down this path?

Amy Patel: In high school the important subjects are definitely biology, chemistry, math. If your school offers advanced physics classes or even advanced medical science classes, I’d definitely say to take that to learn more about what you’d be getting into in real life. And another useful thing to do is that there are internships that you could take even in high school. You just work for free and get experience at a company. I would say that’s really important when choosing your college major.

Luber: Whoa, so you could even do that in high school?

Amy Patel: Definitely. You can definitely intern at a company in high school. You just have to have that initiative and go out there and get it.

[WHAT TO STUDY AND WHAT MAJOR TO CHOOSE IN COLLEGE FOR BIOMEDICAL ENGINEERING CAREERS at 13:22]
Luber: Interesting. God, I wish I was good at those classes. Those are all my worst classes other than economics! Those are my worst classes. I could not do them. They were interesting but I couldn’t do them. I’m an English major kind of guy but this stuff sounds so fascinating. I really love, especially the fact that this is one of those “I want to help the world” kind of jobs AND the fact that it is so cutting edge and you’re really pushing everything into the future. So I hope everyone listening who’s interested in science and math is really paying attention because I think this sounds like just a great opportunity to jump into. Let’s talk about college now: college classes and college majors. Do you major in biomedical engineering?

Amy Patel: Yes, you could major in biomedical engineering. At some schools it’s called “bioengineering”. That’s pretty much the same thing. Some people that get into this industry prefer to double major or major in something different if their school doesn’t offer it – like chemical engineering or mechanical engineering – and you could still go into biomedical engineering from those fields.

Luber: Wow, OK. So you just have to also have the bio background? You just don’t necessarily have to major in it?

Amy Patel: Yeah. You would just have to take some extra bio classes. I know that some schools still don’t offer biomedical or bioengineering for an undergraduate degree so I would suggest taking extra biology classes or, you know, maybe taking classes over the summer at another school that does offer the biomedical engineering classes. That would be a good advantage to get into the industry or see if you even like it first.

Luber: Yeah! And then if someone’s starting in college and didn’t know in high school that this is what they wanted but they’re interested in the general concept, they should just start taking as many science classes as they can?

Amy Patel: They should take specifically biomedical engineering classes. A lot of schools will offer like an entry level biomedical engineering course so you could learn about all of the different industries and what you could possibly do in the future.

Luber: Wow, OK. And then are there certain parts of the country where people really should be looking for these programs or are they pretty much popping up at a lot of universities now?

Amy Patel: Nowadays they are popping up at a lot more universities, but I would definitely say in places like the South or the Midwest it’s more rare. Maybe not impossible to find but more rare. But definitely the 2 coasts: The east coast and the west coast would be easier to find a biomedical engineering major at bigger colleges.

Luber: Is it kind of a combination of a pre-med with engineering?

Amy Patel: Yes. I would say that’s definitely accurate. I could give you one small example. There’s blood flowing through your arteries 24/7. Basically that blood puts a lot of sheer force on your arteries so knowing things like the thickness of the arteries and the viscosity of the blood and the sheer force are all engineering principles but within the body. You know there’s different cells in there and stuff – it’s not just water or a liquid and so that’s the combination of engineering and medical principles that you’re talking about.

[IS A GRADUATE DEGREE NECESSARY FOR BIOMEDICAL ENGINEERING CAREERS at 15:36]
Luber: Wow, it’s all so interesting. And what about grad school? Is it possible for someone to build their career on a Bachelor’s of science or do they really need to go out and get a higher level degree after that?

Amy Patel: That is a great question. An engineering degree, and any type of engineering whether it be biomedical, chemical, electrical, mechanical, is a great degree to have even if you just want an undergraduate degree with no advanced degrees because you automatically go into the profession of engineering, whereas, you know, things like biology and economics , you kind of have to specialize a little bit more. You can of course go to grad school to further specialize in like photodynamics or tissue engineering or any of the other topics we’ve talked about. Other things that people do is get their PhDs or their MDs or you can even get your MBA afterwards, so it’s pretty diverse and open after your undergraduate degree.

Luber: Wow. OK, so lots of different ways you can spin this one.

Amy Patel: Yup.

Luber: What first attracted you to this? We were talking about your interest in helping the world but how did you first hear of it? Did you know about it in high school? Did you figure it out in college?

Amy Patel: In high school I was really motivated to figure out what I wanted to do. You know, a lot of people around me wanted to do different things and they knew what they wanted to do. I myself did not, which is very common.

Luber: Yeah.

Amy Patel: So basically what I did is I just went out there and figured it out. I went on Google and looked at a lot of careers that are in demand and careers that can help people. I knew I didn’t want to be a doctor or work in a hospital but I knew I wanted to help people and be something in the medical field. It’s a HUGE field. There’s so many careers out there for people.

Luber: Yeah, for sure. I love that you found it through Google! You figured it out through Google. That’s so great!

Amy Patel: Yeah!

[SKILL SETS NEEDED FOR BIOMEDICAL ENGINEERS at 17:13]
Luber: I love that! What skill sets would you say – beyond formal education, what skill sets would you say people really need to bring to the table to go down this path?

Amy Patel: You definitely need to be a hard worker. You need to be motivated, never be able to give up. But one of the biggest things is you need to have an analytical way of thinking. So, for example, if you’re looking at a lamp you see it as a light bulb, a shade, and then an electrical socket that’s coming out of somewhere. There’s different components that you see that you put together as one. That’s a great way to think. A lot of people that go into engineering when they were young they played with Lego’s a lot. That’s one of the really big indicators that you may be made to be an engineer.

Luber: Wow. Very interesting. That’s great. So many people love Legos. And Lego land in San Diego – I guess that’s a place you would go?

Amy Patel: I love that place!

Luber: Were you a regular there hanging out all the time?

Amy Patel: I’ve only been there a couple of times but I loved Lego land.

Luber: That’s hilarious! Not too far from Irvine!

Amy Patel: Yeah.
Luber: What else? Other than analytical thinking….team player?

Amy Patel: Yeah, it’s definitely not necessary to work in a team. For example, in a research environment a lot of people can work on their own but most of the jobs out there are definitely working as part of a diverse team. So not a team of biomedical engineers…

[WHO BIOMEDICAL ENGINEERS WORK AND INTERACT WITH at 18:27]
Luber: Tell us that. Who does a biomedical engineer interact with on a daily basis. What type of people, what type of roles?

Amy Patel: Well on a daily basis you’d interact with other engineers like electrical or mechanical or even chemical engineers depending on your job. And you definitely interact with a lot of project managers asking you a lot of questions that they don’t understand. Project manager basically puts everything together but maybe doesn’t understand each individual component and then there’s other people that are also involved like marketing, branding, business development, people that want to know “OK what you’re working on – is that gonna take our company to the next level or is it gonna put our product in that pipeline to make it where you’d make more money moving forward to fund what we want to do to help people?” So there’s a lot of different kinds of people that you’re working with that you need to explain different things to because they themselves have different backgrounds as well. I myself as a reliability engineer work with quality engineers, validation engineers and a lot of business development people as well.

Luber: Now when you’re talking about the business development people and marketing people, I assume that they are not engineers? They do not have a science background, they’re just very interested in this field and that’s why they’re there?

Amy Patel: Yes. Typically, they don’t have a science background. They might have an economics or business degree background. But, you know, to run a company, you need a little bit of everything.

Luber: Yeah! So they’re relying on you for your expertise.

Amy Patel: Exactly! And us on them as well. You know, I don’t know how to make the packaging to sell product properly but they do so we bounce ideas off of each other.

[REWARDS AND CHALLENGES OF BIOENGINEERING CAREERS starts at 19:57]
Luber: Yup. That’s great. What about the most rewarding aspect of this path? Other than we’ve mentioned changing the world, helping the world, what else would you say?

Amy Patel: I would definitely say seeing things go from point A to point Z. Seeing how much work is involved, how much time, how much commitment is involved in something. As a biomedical engineer, it’s really cool because you could see things from beginning to end, whereas somebody that’s in marketing might see things more towards the tail end. We get to see a lot of the research and development and then we also get to see things go to market. So that’s really cool because you could apply that to different industries. For example, even Anheuser Busch, the company that ferments and makes beer, I have a lot of knowledge about all of the instrumentation involved in pharmaceutical manufacturing, which is actually very very similar to fermenting beer! So it’s something that you’re able to apply to different industries and it’s just pretty interesting to see things go from nothing to this huge thing that everybody knows about.

Luber: So does everyone stay late after work on Fridays and kind of push the cancer drugs and the arthritis drugs out of the way and start brewing some microbrews there?

Amy Patel: Hey, you could definitely do that with our equipment!

Luber: That would be fun. That’s yet another reason to down that path!

Luber: So what’s the most challenging aspect of this?

Amy Patel: The most challenging aspect I would say is working with the different types of people and also when things don’t necessarily go your way. When you’re working at a big company, you have a lot of resources. But I’ve also worked at a small company before where we don’t have as much money, we don’t have as many employees, so you’re stretched a little bit thinner and it’s just being creative with what you have and having that positive attitude to make you pull through everything. But, you know, if you’re working with good people and you have a good attitude about it you can definitely do it. But there’s always challenges no matter what field you choose to go in to.

Luber: Absolutely. What about this? You were telling me over the phone that a lot of times people aren’t even familiar – people in your own industry might not be familiar with what biomedical engineering is. Did you tell me that it’s kind of in the industry called BME?

Amy Patel: Yes, so BME would be our short version of biomedical engineering.

Luber: OK.

Amy Patel: And you’re correct. It’s definitely – it’s something that’s been around for a long time but it’s never really had like a set name. You know, more mechanical engineers or chemical engineers would go into these biotech companies. And so more in the recent years biomedical engineering has been more widely recognized and so it’s a little bit frustrating trying to explain to people that we’re not just biology majors. You know, we’ve taken a lot of advanced calculus courses, a lot of physics courses. So we understand fluid dynamics, biomechanics, all those kind of things so those are definitely things that are a little bit difficult to deal with but you get through it as long as you have the right knowledge, you’re able to explain it to others.
Luber: What about this? You were telling me that sometimes the real world is very different from the education world, the school world for an engineer. And translating it into real life can be a tricky thing. Can you tell us about that?

Amy Patel: Yeah, if I could give you an example about that, that would be great.

Luber: Yeah.

Amy Patel: You know when you’re in school, you have a lot of direction. People telling you what to do, giving you instructions, helping you along the way of your path. When you’re in the real world, you basically are just given a problem and figure it out. Figure out how to do it. You’re not getting what you need to use to do it. So for example, at one of my first jobs I was doing research and the cells that I was working on in my research lab wouldn’t fit into the dishes that we had to grow them in. And so the post-doctorate that I was working under just said “well we need to grow these cells in here, this is what we have, figure it out” and he didn’t give me any other information or anything to figure it out. He just walked away to write the rest of his grant proposal. So that was a big challenge that you don’t learn about in school. You just have to be open-minded, work hard and I succeeded eventually after that. It took me hours and hours of research of what to do but you know, I did it and you just gotta figure it out.

Luber: Ha, that’s great. Thinking on your feet! That’s the real world.

Amy Patel: That is the real world.

Luber: Absolutely, yeah. What about this? You also were saying earlier that there’s something for everybody out there. There’s ways to kind of tweak your role so that you find the thing that fits your interests and skills. You told me over the phone that there are – some people don’t like the engineering aspects of the path. Maybe the drawings aren’t really their thing but the science, the biology aspect is more of interest. How does that work out and what if someone starts working, they get out there in the real world, and they realize that? They realize that their strengths are not in the drawings and not in the engineering aspects. What do they do?

Amy Patel: That’s a great question. There’s a lot of people like that in this industry. Maybe even half the people in this industry are like that. And it’s good because they have the engineering background. They’ve got a really good, solid knowledge base of the engineering so they may go into something like research, they may get their PhD, they may become a professor and go into teaching. A lot of other things that people do are related to that industry. So, for example, you could work at a pharmaceutical company and be a salesperson and sell the drugs and you could still make good money and use everything that you learned in school. Or work at a medical device company because you have a degree in BME and be a sales person or a marketing person on that end as well. I’ve seen a lot of people do that and they’re very successful and they’re very happy with what they do.

Luber: Nice! What about this? What’s the weed out factor? I always like to ask this. This would be the thing where if you can’t handle this, you really shouldn’t be in this path. You shouldn’t be going down this path at all. What would that be?

Amy Patel: I would say a big weed out factor is just not being able to consume and understand numbers that well. So it’s not the end-all be-all because this is a very diverse industry, but I think even when you go into sales or when you go into marketing you still need to understand numbers. You need to understand statistics and what these numbers have as an effect on people. So, for example, if the statistic of something is 1 in 3 and you’re trying to sell somebody, depending on whether that’s a positive or negative statistic, you want to know how to spin that. So really I think you have to be a numbers person no matter whether you’re looking at drawings or generating reports or doing sales.

[BECOMING A BIOMEDICAL ENGINEER starts at 26:05]
Luber: Wow, OK. Alright – numbers person. Remember that everybody. You’ve gotta be a numbers person. What about employment? Everyone wants to know about jobs. If you’re coming out of school now, where should you be looking? What types of places should you be looking for employment?

Amy Patel: This is a great, growing industry right now. I would say a lot of the big companies or start-ups if you have start-ups in your area. Like San Diego has a lot of pharmaceutical start-ups and the Bay Area has a lot of biotech and pharmaceutical start-ups as well. So pharmaceutical, biotech, research labs – places that basically have a large volume of things and a lot of money. That’s where you’ll be able to find a lot of jobs. However, there’s a lot of small start-up companies where you learn a lot more initially even though the companies have less money, hey – you know it’s kind of like you can learn a lot and something might happen with the company – it might not work out but you still got great experience where you can go on to your next job after that. A job that you might be able to have a more specialized role in.

Luber: Right. And what about this? Internships. You mentioned that in high school there’s opportunities. Do you see a lot of opportunities in this space for college internships?

Amy Patel: Definitely. I know tons of students that are in college right now that work at large pharmaceutical companies or even smaller companies. There’s legal firms that do want college students that have a science knowledge – maybe on some of their cases and things like that. So that’s something kind of cool – you can go into a company that’s not biotech or pharma and get great experience. I even know someone who got a great internship at the FDA – the Food and Drug Administration – and it’s always great to know the laws in this country before you go into industry as well, so there’s a lot of internships out there. You’ve just got to go get them. You can even intern at companies like Coca-Cola or Neutrogena. You know, things that you might not initially think are applicable to your industry but you will learn things that will help you later on as well.

Luber: So do companies like those even have biomedical engineers? You would have someone in your role at a Coca-Cola kind of place?

Amy Patel: They’ll probably have things like people for research or chemical industry, which are really relevant to biomedical and pharmaceutical industries as well. But the biggest thing will probably be that they would land a role in research and development or marketing. Marketing for things like over-the-counter drugs, which Neutrogena manufactures, is somewhat similar to pharmaceuticals as well, you know. So I would say it’s definitely worth a try. If that’s what you get, then go for it.

Luber: Wow, OK. Yeah internships you guys are so important. I broke into the music business that way. That was my first career before getting in to the career consulting/recruiting space. It’s all about internships. That’s how you meet everybody, that’s how you get out there, you get your work experience, you get started…So everybody should definitely pay attention. It’s good that they have it in this – in such a technical kind of career path. I think that’s really good to know. So start-up companies – those are there for people who really aren’t big fans of corporate America. If they really are interested in that more smaller, cutting-edge kind of a thing, the start-up opportunities are out there?

Amy Patel: Yes. There’s definitely start-up opportunities out there. And the good thing about a start-up company is that you get to do so many things initially so it’s a great job right out of college or even in high school if you’re able to land an internship there. It’s great. You get to do a little bit of every single thing. Especially if you get it in high school, hey – maybe you discover biomedical engineering or some other field from a start-up company. So that’s definitely a big advantage. And networking is the biggest thing. So when you work at a start-up company, you get to meet a LOT of new people and that’s a a BIG advantage to any industry.

Luber: That is Red Magic Marker territory. I always tell people that networking is Red Magic Marker territory. Get out your red magic markers everybody and highlight that in your notes. Networking is key. Right Amy?

Amy Patel: Definitely. That’s how I got all of my jobs: Networking.

Luber: Alright you guys, you’ve gotta do that! So we’ve got pharma companies, medical device, biotech, start-ups, and even places like Coca-Cola. Or even, you were telling me places like a research place like a Kaiser.

Amy Patel: Oh yeah! Kaiser definitely hires biomedical engineers. Anywhere that has big equipment where it has anything to do with medicine, you can get a job. And also like you said, pharmaceutical companies and anything that’s large-scale manufacturing companies that need help with equipment, you know.

Luber: There’s so many opportunities!

Amy Patel: Other things like research organizations or like St. John’s Hospitals or Scripps Center in San Diego, those are really big research organizations that hire a lot of people that have science and engineering knowledge. So that’s a big advantage of being in this industry.

Luber: OK. So many different places you can go and take this skill set it sounds like. Learn it and then grow it.

Amy Patel: Yes!

[KEYS TO SUCCESS FOR BIOENGINEERING CAREERS starts at 30:42]
Luber: Very very cool. Well do this. Close us out with some keys to success. Take your experience and kind of take the mentor role where you are gonna give everyone that’s watching that kind of head start – a leg up on everyone else. They can learn from you, who’s been out there in the world, and they can get a little leg up on everybody else.

Amy Patel: Great. So I’m gonna say it again: networking! Never give up. Meet as many people as you can and do not be shy. Get involved in your school, in your organizations. Get involved in clubs, get involved in industry, just get out there! That’s what you need to do. Another big thing is obviously grades are very, very important, but what’s also very important is your academics being diverse. It helps you a lot if you have leadership experience, whether that be in clubs or student government, and it also helps you a lot if you go out there and get a job early. Getting a job just teaches you responsibility, conflict management, patience, which is big in any industry, and another big thing that I would tell high school students out there is research what you want to do. Take a career aptitude test that you could probably get from your career center. If you can’t find that you could probably find a million things on line. And just get out there and do some research and try to figure it out. You don’t have to decide tomorrow what you’re gonna do for the rest of your life but at least know your options. Stay open-minded and definitely stay excited about any opportunity because the world is your oyster when you’re 18!

Luber: Ha! The world is your oyster. Great advice! Excellent advice for everybody. You guys, as always at Careers Out There, we’re helping you find a career that fits you so you could love what you do like Amy here. Amy, thanks so much for joining us today!

Amy Patel: Great. Thank you Careers Out There.

Luber: Ha! I hope this was helpful to you guys. Please leave your feedback, your questions and your comments in the comments section below the video at Careers Out There dot com. You could find Amy’s biomedical engineering blog at Amy Shah dot com and that’s Amy S-h-a-h dot com. You could find episodes of Careers Out There on iTunes, YouTube, BlipTV and of course at Careers Out There dot com. Thanks again for watching everybody. I’m Marc Luber and look forward to seeing you again soon. Take care.

©2011 Careers Out There

What Is Engineering 1:03-8:50
Typical Day for Chemical Engineers 8:50-15:00
Careers for Chemical Engineers 15:00-17:28
Becoming a Chemical Engineer (A) 17:28-22:13
Education for Chemical Engineering 22:13-25:21
Challenges of Careers for Chemical Engineers 25:21-29:25
Becoming a Chemical Engineer (B) 29:25-30:56
Keys To Success for Chemical Engineers 30:56

Careers Out There Host Marc Luber: Hey everyone – on today’s episode of Careers Out There, we’re gonna explore careers in chemical engineering. We’ll be talking to Joe Sullivan in the Shenandoah Valley of Virginia. Joe’s a chemical engineer in the pharmaceutical industry with over 10 years of experience! On every episode of Careers Out There, we explore a career path by talking to a real professional who does that kind of work. They tell us what it’s really like and then they share all kinds of advice to help YOU decide if it’s a path YOU want to pursue. So we’re helping you find a career that fits you. I’m your host Marc Luber and I’ll be learning right along with you guys today. Joe’s got a lot of great, eye-opening stuff to tell us about chemical engineering so it’s gonna be a great show. Stick around! [theme song] OK we’re back! Joe – welcome to Careers Out There.

Chemical Engineer Joe Sullivan: Thank you. Thank you for having me here.

[WHAT IS ENGINEERING starts at: 1:03]

Host Marc Luber: Yeah. Thanks for being here! So I was telling the audience Joe in the intro that I’m gonna be learning right along with them because I know nothing at all about engineering. Really nothing! So I’m really excited you’re here. When we were talking on the phone the other day we were talking about how this is pretty common. A lot of people don’t know a lot about engineering and a lot of people kind of take it for granted when, in reality, where would we be WITHOUT engineering, right?

Joe Sullivan: Yeah, yeah that’s good! It’s absolutely right. I think a lot of people, they see products in the marketplace that they could purchase, you know, maybe from their shampoo to their, to some devices they have – like, for instance, a lot of devices they use like rechargeable batteries, lithium ion batteries and other things, those don’t just appear after the artists have conceptualized and come up with the design of these wonderful products they want to bring to market. Engineers have to make those visions become a reality by applying science and knowledge to bring those products to life. So chemical engineers specifically, when someone comes along, we might have some chemists, some doctors come along and say, for instance, in my profession in the pharmaceutical industry, this is a drug or a chemical which has certain properties within the body. And if we could just make it on a large scale, we could distribute it to all these people and improve their lives, improve their livelihood. And so this is what chemical engineers do – is they take that idea and say “yes, we have factories, we have big tanks, we have apparatus that will let us make that product on a large scale so that it can be given to many people.” So that’s what chemical engineers essentially do. And you do that by understanding the properties and the nature of the chemicals you’re actually handling. You begin to see patterns in which they behave as you take them from the laboratory in a flask up to the large scale tank. They may behave somewhat differently on the large scale. Engineers understand that and correct for that so they can make a product that’s needed. So that’s in a nutshell….

Luber: You were just talking about pharmaceuticals – and you were telling me with paint, for example, that it’s a matter of making that paint thinner or thicker, right? So that it responds differently when you’re brushing it onto the wall? Stuff like that?

Joe Sullivan: Yeah. Exactly. People take for granted paint, and think it’s just another liquid, when in reality it’s quite different from water if you think about it. Water would just dribble down the wall and it would fall off your brush. Paint is completely an engineered material so that it’s thick. When you dip your brush in, you pick it up and it’s thick. And when you push on the wall, you’re shearing the paint liquid and it spreads easily. It’s called “shear thinning behavior”. And this is a property that is specifically engineered into paint to allow you to get big globs on your brush but yet spread it thinly on the surface of the wall. And so that’s the thing – all these things are taken for granted by the general public because you don’t really get exposure to the level of engineering that went in to achieve the properties that went into achieving the properties in whatever you’re talking about.

Luber: For some reason engineering is not sexy and people don’t care. So it’s YOUR job today for our audience – you’ve gotta make it sexy! So we’ll put that pressure on you so that we could turn on a whole future batch of chemical engineers watching today. You told me a REALLY, REALLY eye-opening story the other day that helped me understand engineering a LOT. If you could take the story about the paint factory and apply what you just said to THAT. How you helped the paint company that you worked at by applying these basic foundations of chemical engineering.

Joe Sullivan: Yeah. So the big story I shared with you the other day is I worked in the paint industry for about 1 year. They, until I was hired, they had basically for I think about 100 years they’d been there, so they’d never really had a process engineer. Or, even an engineer – they had some engineers that are best described almost like they kept the place running, but they never had like a real chemical engineer who understood the nature of fluids, which is all what paint is. So when I first got there, and I got to work out in the factory, they had a particular process where they were making white paint. And in the process of making paint you grind pigment up and as you grind it more and more you get stronger and stronger paint, essentially. And they had had this tank and it would take them up to a week of adding the pigment in the tank and mixing it, agitating it with what you can almost imagine like a blender-like blade in there, like mixing it up, this blade that could be lowered or raised. They would turn it on high speed and it would get mixed up and then they would run it through a mill, which is a bunch of balls that crunch the pigment up more and they’d bring it back into the tank and they’d do it again and again. They had found that this process took several iterations of going around that loop until they got the product out that they needed for the customer in the end. So I said “oh, let me look at this”. I took a sample of paint, I took measurements of the tank, I went back to my desk, I did some calculations – well first I measured the paint and its properties, how thick it is, just some general properties, how heavy it is. Then I went back to my desk and kind of calculated out that they weren’t running it correctly at all! So I went back out, I told them to turn down the motor on the tank and they kind of looked at me like in disbelief and they said “that’s never gonna work, never in a million years.” So what I had established was that they were running the blade so fast that they had put the fluid into what’s called “turbulent flow” and when fluid is in turbulent flow, all the molecules in the fluid, and in this particular instance the paint particles we wanted to get torn apart, are ultimately just dancing around each other because you can imagine like turbulence – when you think of things being turbulent they’re plopping all over each other- but they weren’t really breaking apart. So what I did instead is put the fluid in the tank in what’s called “laminar flow” where the fluid is moving against itself like this in sheets. And in between those sheets, if you can imagine, there’s something stuck between the sheets it gets torn apart, it gets pulled in 2 different directions at once, and that would really break it up very efficiently. So I had them lower the speed so the fluid would settle out into this beautiful laminar flow and sure enough – I was able to grind all the pigment in the tank in like 28 hours! And we just had to do one pass through the mill and we were done! So they went from several days down to 28 hours – and the look on their faces was like disbelief!

Luber: You maximized their output by 7 times!

Joe Sullivan: Yes! Something close to that, yes! So it was a big thing for me and for them to see the power of understanding core principles at work and then leveraging those to get a better outcome. And again, that’s what engineers do. Is you take some time to think out “what are the things affecting what I’m trying to make” and then you optimize those things and you figure them out so as to make the thing better, cheaper, faster, stronger, whatever you’re looking for.

Luber: And then they saw the value of engineering! And that whole story helped ME see the value so I’ve gotta figure it helps the audience see the value too. So you’re making it sexy!

Joe Sullivan: I guess as sexy as paint can be, you know?!

[TYPICAL DAY FOR CHEMICAL ENGINEERS starts at: 8:50]

Luber: Exactly! For the audience that’s thinking about going down this path, they’re gonna want to know what’s a typical day if I’m working out there. So one of the things you were telling me the other day is that in a typical day someone’s working at an office at their desk and they’re also working in a lab and they’re also in a factory! And that’s pretty typical. Can you kind of explain what’s happening briefly in each of those and how that makes up your typical day?

Joe Sullivan: Yeah sure. So for a chemical engineer, and also like we mentioned, is this was early in my career, especially being in a very strong support position for a factory environment. Typically the day would start off with coming in, hearing what’s happened over night because we’d run 24/7, carrying over the problems from yesterday that we might have encountered. This could be anything from a reaction not going the way we’d planned to a pipe bursting because of freezing to any sorts of issues. Sometimes it could be the simplest issue like a valve not working that then all of a sudden causes all these other cascade of issues. So I need to understand those. Probably in the same trip we might have taken some samples. I may bring those to our testing laboratories that would normally run testing for us. Those samples may require special testing we normally don’t do. And I’d bring those back to my chemists that work in my department with me as well. They’re kind of like – they’re able to run tests that we normally don’t do, come up with new ideas. And then we might all sit down in a meeting like by Noon or something or 1:00 and talk about the issue and pool our data. Everyone comes and I might have gone back to my desk while the chemists are running tests and looked up process data like basically traces of temperatures and pressures and volumes and other things that have occurred out there, like see what that data is. We all come together, we reach a resolution on what might or might not be wrong and then we have an action plan basically to go forward. So I may go back out now, have to implement what are essentially change controls – like we have control processes, and you’re gonna want to go out and you’re gonna want to say “I’m deliberately gonna change the process so as to fix it”. So you might have to do some paperwork, a little bit of paperwork to implement that change but then you get to actually see your change happen, take some more data, come back to the laboratory again, maybe come back to your desk and look at some process data and basically see if your fix worked. And hopefully most of the time you’ve made the right decision. Sometimes you might have a great idea and it didn’t work out. It wasn’t the root cause. So a lot of what we do is we’re always seeking out what we like to call “root cause”. So sometimes you think you found the problem but it’s really just superficially the problem and there’s something else going on that you don’t know yet. It might be that not enough water got in that tank that day. And you might go out and say “oh, we just need to turn the water up” but then you turn the water up and you notice that even THEN you didn’t get enough flow and then you go back and say “Well maybe there’s a plug in the line”. I guess that’s a very simple example but they’re often much more complex.

Luber: No, that’s good – that helps!

Joe Sullivan: You try to work through some issues and as the chemical engineer, you’re all through those places at any given moment so you don’t have a….

Luber: So if you’re running around juggling 3 different environments, it’s hard to get bored! You’re not stuck at a desk all day or you’re not just stuck at any 1 thing all day which makes for an exciting job.

Joe Sullivan: It’s great. I mean you have all these people who have these issues from sitting at their desks all day or whatever. You’re definitely gonna be getting some exercise and you’re getting out and getting some fresh air, you’re getting out and meeting on any one day tens of people so there’s a lot of interaction every day with people.

Luber: I want to run with that and talk about that for a second because there’s a lot of interaction with people. It sounds like in everything you’re describing in a typical day, there’s a lot of putting your head together with other people’s heads. So there’s a lot of teamwork involved. So I want to know who are these other major team players that you’re dealing with? They’re not all chemical engineers. So who are these other players?

Joe Sullivan: Yeah. You actually deal with when you’re a chemical engineer, you’re gonna have peers but they’re gonna each be working on their own processes. So I would be working typically with what we call “operators” or “chemical operators”. So they’re actually out there running the machinery. You’re gonna be working with safety and environmental, so like industrial hygienists. You’re gonna be working with the business end like finance, purchasing. You’re gonna be working with your raw material people – the people that bring the materials on site – you’re gonna need to integrate with them and figure out if the wrong shipment arrived –sometimes that tends to be the source of the problem. You’re supposed to get this product in and this OTHER product came in and you didn’t know it. You might also be working with chemists. I know right now I’m starting a new project where I’m in fermentation. I’m working with biologists. You know you could be working with people who handle all of our paperwork and essentially librarians almost, and then administrative personnel as well. And mechanics. There’s SO many people I work with. So many different types of people. It’s really hard to almost count them all out! Because on a chemical site, there are so many roles because it’s so complex. It’s just like a city. You can’t have someone control all of the city. Rather it’s like a big network of people that all need to find ways in which you interact that creates productive work together.

Luber: So everyone’s like an alderman instead of a mayor.

Joe Sullivan: Yes! I guess so, yeah!

[CAREERS FOR CHEMICAL ENGINEERS starts at: 15:00]

Luber: To run with your city analogy. So you were telling me that there’s a lot of different things you could do career wise. A lot of different paths you could take career wise as a chemical engineer. Can you tell us what some of those are?

Joe Sullivan: Yeah! Most chemical engineers you’re gonna start your career off 1 or 2 ways: in the laboratory in the design realm where that might be like working in the lab every day essentially to test new equipment or to test whether the equipment could be used for a certain process or to actually sit down at your computer and like design the factory. OR you’re gonna be starting your career like I described out in the factory every morning, basically problem-solving. So that’s how most young engineers start actually. Other things you might do in that role is like validation work where you’re testing tanks and making sure they perform to specifications, things like this. So as you get older then, your options open up a little bit. Usually to the standpoint of you can continue to go down those roles, you can possibly become like a managerial position where you’re managing like a number of engineers or managing like an entire process. So you might be managing like an entire factory or you might be managing a team of engineers that are helping several factories. There’s different roles – it varies. Then after that, after you have gone a little farther in your career, you may become a consultant, you may decide that you have developed so many skills over your career that you now can go out and help other people with processes like yours at other companies. Or you could become a plant manager: someone who is basically managing the ENTIRE operations of the plant. The reason why engineers are well-suited to those positions is that we, as I mentioned before, we’re often in the center of working with all those different types of people. So you get a really good exposure to all the aspects of running a plant. Like all the minutiae that goes on. So you’re often well-suited then to become a plant manager because you just have that base.

Luber: Right! That makes perfect sense. Yeah. And the consultant – they could even be expert witnesses on trials too I bet. That’s probably a big path.

Joe Sullivan: Yeah absolutely.

[BECOMING A CHEMICAL ENGINEER (A) starts at: 17:28]

Luber: Well who would you say then should pursue something like this? What are the right – we can combine skill sets, personality characteristics and interests. Who do you think should pursue this?

Joe Sullivan: People that find themselves interested in math and science. Specifically for chemical engineering they should have some interest in chemistry. For me that always manifested itself – growing up I would always be mixing things together as a very young child. And as I grew older, I began to question whether if I mixed similar things together like that weren’t exactly the same as those like how would the end thing be different. How would the end product be different. And actually one of my very first things – and I don’t recommend this – but we used to take apart fireworks when I was younger. And we’d make our own from the fireworks stand.

Luber: Don’t do this everybody! It’s dangerous! We want to warn everybody!

Joe Sullivan: Right, don’t try this at home.

Luber: Right. Don’t try it at home.

Joe Sullivan: But what we would do is we’d take the gunpowder on sheets of paper and we’d take a file to pennies and nickels and stuff and you start learning about all these things. So I went and filed it in to the gunpowder and it would change the color of the gunpowder. So I always had a natural curiosity about what would happen if I add this or mix this – what would the new result be? That started leading me in the direction of chemistry. And then when I got into chemistry I said “you know what – I don’t know that I like so much the chemistry field, which is specifically like mixing the chemicals every day in the lab. I really wanted, and I think this comes from my background of always inventing stuff as a child, I wanted to make something of my knowledge. So I’m trying to give you an example of myself to give you an idea of the kind of personality – would be someone that’s curious about things- like how they work and stuff – but someone who also wants to take that knowledge and turn it into something new – or something better. So the gunpowder example – that was our attempt to make it better. Because what we found out is when you’d take those all apart, gunpowder was mostly all yellow and we were like “That’s boring”. So we were trying to make it better and that’s like engineering! The other thing I mentioned in there several times – the word that kept coming up – is “curiosity”. And that’s crucial. If you’re out in the factory and you walk past this funny nose that’s going “whirr whirr whirr” and normally it just goes “whirr”, you want to be the person that goes “huh I’d better check that out”. Or “even though I’m a little late for a meeting, I’m gonna go check that out because that really sounds peculiar.” That’s what most engineers are like. Their curiosity helps drive them to solutions. Sometimes solutions to problems no one even knew existed! And that’s the key – when you get to be a REALLY good engineer, you get to be better and better at your predictive abilities and less and less at your fire fighting. So you look at a situation and you say “oh, I’ve seen this situation several times, I think I know what might happen.” And then you’d then try to avoid that. So these are attributes….

Luber: OK. So the curious mind, the problem solver, and the math and science lover. That’s it.

Joe Sullivan: Yup.

Luber: Cool! So what would you say then is the most rewarding part of the whole career? What would that be?

Joe Sullivan: I think the most rewarding part is solving particularly hard problems that there is no solution to. So often times being the first one to discover the issue…I love puzzles – and especially puzzles – I often take the instructions and I crumble them up and throw them in the trash can which someone might think is crazy – but I don’t want to ever know the solution. I want to get to it on my own. Being an engineer is like that often. Almost every day. You’re presented with issues every day there’s not an answer to. You have to go and figure it out. So for me, that’s the most rewarding thing of all of being an engineer. There’s not a written script by which you should follow every day. It’s not entirely up to you what you do every day, but it’s entirely up to you how you attack the problems that are presented to you every day.

[EDUCATION FOR CHEMICAL ENGINEERING starts at: 22:13]

Luber: That makes sense! If you’re a curious mind who likes problem solving, then solving the hard problems has got to be a rewarding part of the job! So that makes perfect sense it would work like that. What about education then? What should people – I’m assuming if someone’s in high school they should be taking as many math and science classes as possible, right?

Joe Sullivan: Yes.

Luber: And then college – I assume if you know that you’re interested in engineering in high school, then you should be looking for the colleges with the best engineering programs. But some people don’t figure out until they’re already AT college that they want to pursue that path. So let’s say you haven’t already hunted down the best engineering college – you just chose a university and you’ve started school and you kind of are figuring out in college “I want to do what Joe does”. What should they do at that point? What should they be studying?

Joe Sullivan: Just in general, I want to say that if you don’t take – or some people don’t have an opportunity to take a lot of advanced math and science in high school. I’d like to say that that does NOT preclude you in any way from pursuing a chemical engineering or an engineering degree at all. The only thing I will say is that if those ARE available at your high school and you find yourself NOT taking those, then that MAY be an indication that this is NOT the field for you. This is not something that you’re interested in. So when you get into college, as far as picking a college, you said a “good” college. I’m just gonna say I think a “good” college would be a college that has a large department of the discipline you’re thinking about pursuing. And you can go look this information up on line. So you’re gonna find out that certain schools have larger departments in like chemical engineering, or have a larger department in like, for instance, electrical engineering….

Luber: That leads to another question. Sorry to interrupt you – but do you have to know when you’re starting which kind of engineer you want to be? Or can you start off by taking general engineering classes and then kind of select which focus you want?

Joe Sullivan: No. So if you choose you want to do engineering as a college freshman, you have the option if you want to take Intro to Engineering in your freshman year. When you take that course you’ll be given a sampling of the different engineering disciplines that are available: chemical engineering, electrical, mechanical or some other types. At the end of that class you typically will make a choice about the engineering discipline you want to go into. And then your class schedule will be chosen to fulfill the requirements of that discipline. So for chemical engineering, you’ll be taking kinetics and thermodynamics and all those things like that. After that first entry class, after the first entry classes, you still may be available to switch disciplines. So you may have taken some intro classes for chemical engineering – and they’re not totally worthless for electrical engineering. You can switch. That’s usually in your sophomore year. People will make that choice, usually in the first semester of their sophomore year. After that you pretty much would probably stick with the discipline you’ve chosen because you’re getting into more and more advanced: 200, 300 and 400-level classes that are VERY specific to your discipline.

Luber: Got it.

Joe Sullivan: Does that make sense?

[CHALLENGES OF CAREERS FOR CHEMICAL ENGINEERS starts at: 25:21]
Luber: Yeah! Definitely. So we’ve talked now about all the good stuff and now we’ve gotten people to the point where they’re in school. Let’s talk about the dark side. The ugly stuff. What’s the biggest challenge of being a chemical engineer? What’s the hardest thing?

Joe Sullivan: Yeah. So most of the processes that you’ll support as a chemical engineer are gonna run 24/7, around the clock all year long. Often times being down can mean tens of thousands to hundreds of thousands of dollars an hour sometimes, depending on the value of the product that’s going through the train. And so the downside of being a chemical engineer is that you make a commitment, essentially, when you join a company that you are gonna make your skills available to that company for those processes. And so I’ve had, for me personally, a Thanksgiving dinner interrupted where I had to come up to work to basically get a process running that had gone down during Thanksgiving. I’ve also had a week or 2 where I didn’t see my family except sleeping. You know I was working VERY long hours on a VERY difficult problem. Now that was very short term. Early in your career you might find yourself working a lot of shift work, which means a lot of sleep interruption from the way your natural sleep cycle might be used to.

Luber: That would be like working midnight til sunrise? That kind of a thing?

Joe Sullivan: Yeah, that kind of a thing, yeah. Where you work extended hours would be like on a very specific problem that is arising. When you’re working off – like when I say “shift” – it would be like your shift might be 8:00 at night to 6:00 in the morning or something. And then you might work that for 3 or 4 days and be off – you still get off days but I’m just saying you will be off from the rest of society! Some people like it. I think of that as a downside. Especially if you have a family – that can be a downside because it could just be difficult to see your family because they’re not gonna be on that odd schedule.

Luber: Right. So that’s like the early career phase where you’re building things up, you might have to pay your dues that way.

Joe Sullivan: Yeah but that’s never gonna go away even later on in your career because there’s always gonna be a need for you and when you work on things that run around the clock all year long, there’s gonna always be, even later in your career, there’s gonna be a time when you have to come in at an odd time to either fix something or to see something that only occurs at night. If you were to go into engineering and that was to be your life every day, you’re probably not at the right company. Those types of spans are usually short-term and then you can get back into more of a regular schedule.

Luber: What about the thing that would weed people out? It sounds like – I always like to say “what is that thing where if you can’t handle this you shouldn’t go down this path” – it sounds like from what you were saying about the grueling classes that you have to take to get to the point where you’re actually a chemical engineer – it sounds like THAT would really weed people out and that if you don’t enjoy those classes and you can’t get through those classes then you’ll be weeded out before you even are a chemical engineer. Is that right?

Joe Sullivan: Yeah. I’ll just give you an idea – like when I was in school, me and my friends, we would take the classes and they were TOUGH. But when we’d get done with that tough assignment, we’d all have the same kind of response like “oh – that’s really cool!” You know? “That’s so cool that we solved this really tough problem using this really advanced math!” But if you find yourself looking at such situations with dismay, then engineering is not right for you at all. You know what I’m saying?

Luber: That paints a perfect picture! I wouldn’t last 5 seconds in any of those classes. Not because I don’t think it’s cool but because I wouldn’t understand any of it – everything would go a mile over my head – so I know I’s not for me! Finding employment – let’s talk about that. Getting a job after school – you were saying that traditionally there’ve been lots of jobs out there for people coming out of school but right now a lot of jobs are shifting overseas in this space and now there’s a lot of opportunities overseas in places like China and India? Is that what’s happening with your field?

Joe Sullivan: Yeah. I have a number of colleagues and friends from college who are now working in China, working in India and often times the role that they’re fulfilling, it’s not like they’re going to India to work in a factory under these extreme conditions or something. They’re actually very nice factories in these countries that are being built – a very equivalent to our factories. They are basically acting the role as like a technical advisor in those companies. So they’re going over there and they’re saying “I’m an expert in how to make products like this” and they’ve been hired and they lend that expertise to those companies so as to optimize their processes. Some of those companies – actually in all the cases of my friends – they are all American companies that have locations overseas. Actually I also have friends that are in Thailand, Puerto Rico, Ireland – so it’s not only China and India. I don’ think a lot of people realize that a lot of manufacturing is also going into other countries like those ones I just mentioned.

[BECOMING A CHEMICAL ENGINEER (B) starts at: 29:25]

Luber: Huh. OK, so then if people are interested in international opportunities and working overseas, this could be a path that could help open up those opportunities. If they want to stay here in the States and they’re looking for your traditional job here in chemical engineering would you say internships during school are an important thing for them to try and look for while in college?

Joe Sullivan: Absolutely. I think just seeing the candidates come through here – the ones that have expertise from doing summer internships or what are called co-ops, which is where you leave school for an entire semester and you work at a company – those are extremely valuable. That’s the thing – there’s that old adage that you don’t have enough experience to be hired…… but you can’t be hired unless you have experience – it’s like a Catch 22. Co-ops and internships are the perfect opportunity because companies will scoop you right up, you can come and work usually on these really defined, narrow special projects which are great because you can achieve a certain success and just a few months you’re there, you’re given a very tight goal and you can get this very nice success and something to claim later in interviews. You can say if you’re interviewing “I was on this co-op and we developed this technology”, you know. It’s a nice sharing story to have in your interviews to show people that you’ve really been in the trenches and it gives you that experience.

[KEYS TO SUCCESS FOR CHEMICAL ENGINEERS starts at: 30:56]

Luber: Yup. It gives you an edge up, a leg up on other people, it can help get that first job. That’s great. So everybody should do that – you should look into those kinds of opportunities – whether it’s co-op if your school does that or internships. What about keys to success? I always like to have everyone close us out with this. Take all of your years of experience and share some advice with people who are breaking into the career path of being a chemical engineer and help them to kick butt. What are the key things you would tell them?

Joe Sullivan: The key things I would tell a new chemical engineer: the first one is to listen to the people who actually work on your process. So go out, interact with those people on a day-to-day basis, make them you friends. They, more than anyone else, no matter what anyone else says, they may more than anyone else know the process backwards and forwards what the issues are. They’re gonna help you solve problems day in and day out. So that’s number 1. I think that – and if your company offers the opportunity, I didn’t have this opportunity when I started here at this company but at the paint company I got to work the floor for 6 weeks. So I actually got to become an operator. If that’s a possibility wherever you go as a chemical engineer to work, ask for it. Ask to do that.

Luber: Because standing in their shoes lets you totally relate once you are on the chemical engineering side so you can understand where they’re at?

Joe Sullivan: Oh yeah! And not only do they see you as a peer and as an equal, in which case then they’re more likely to share issues with you freely and share candid assessments of your great ideas that you’re gonna come out with. But it also gives you insight into things you just can’t get sitting at a desk or going out there only for an hour or 2 here and there. When you’re out there all day long, you get to see that nitty gritty – and I have to say, in the paint plant, at least 75% of my really good ideas came from that 6 weeks I spent out there. I had this list, this running list. So that’s another suggestion. You know – don’t be afraid to ask stupid questions. I get that young engineers, I think they want to look like they know everything. Trust me – no one’s looking for that actually at all, number 1. And I still don’t look like I know everything. I’ll tell you what – looking like you know everything actually shuts people down. It makes them feel like not sharing with you. It’s much better to play the role of asking silly questions and supposedly stupid questions because you get to the core answers first and you make people comfortable about themselves and they’re more likely to share. So those are some advice that people don’t hear all the time.

Luber: Right. That’s great. That’s really – I think that’s really helpful advice. And I hope it helps all you guys watching! Please leave your feedback, your questions and your comments in the comments section below the video there on Careers Out There dot com. Joe – thanks so much for taking the time and sharing all of your insights with us today.

Joe Sullivan: It’s been a lot of fun. I wish everyone the best out there who’s considering being a chemical engineer.

Luber: That’s awesome. You guys could find Joe on Twitter which is where I found him! Joe – tell everyone your Twitter address.

Joe Sullivan: I’m on Twitter at Twitter.com/itche.

Luber: Excellent. You guys, find him there on Twitter. I’ll put that here up on the screen. You can find episodes of Careers Out There on iTunes, YouTube and BlipTV and of course at Careers Out There dot com. Thanks again for watching everybody. I’m Marc Lube and look forward to seeing you guys again soon. Take care.
 
©2011 Careers Out There

Careers in Carpentry 1:54-2:55
What Does A Carpenter Do 2:55-5:25
Carpentry Skills 5:25-12:25
Being a Carpenter 12:25-19:11
Education for Carpentry 19:11-22:22
Careers in the Trades 22:22-26:15
Rewards & Challenges of Careers in Carpentry 26:15-28:41
Keys to Success for Careers in Carpentry 28:41

Careers Out There host Marc Luber: Hey everyone, welcome to Careers Out There. I’m your host Marc Luber and we’re helping you find a career that fits you. In each episode of Careers Out There, we explore a career path by talking to a real professional who does that kind of work – and they’ll share all kinds of advice with us to help you decide whether it’s a career path that you want to pursue. Today we’re looking at the career path of being a carpenter – and we’re talking to Gary Katz – he’s a carpenter and finish carpentry specialist with over 30 years of experience. Let’s watch Gary in action. [video of Gary working] As you can tell from that video, Gary’s not only a finish carpentry specialist, but he also teaches carpenters. Gary published the only comprehensive DVD program teaching finish carpentry. In addition to that he teaches at live events all across America at national trade shows and at lumber yards through his Katz Road Show. You can find the schedule for that at KatzRoadShow.com. In addition to that, he’s been writing for leading trade journals for over 20 years, writing books on carpentry as well and he also publishes ThisIsCarpentry.com, which is a free online magazine devoted to craftsman and craftsmanship. And –as if all that’s not enough – Gary shares carpentry tips and techniques at his personal website, GaryMKatz.com. He’s a busy guy and an interesting guy, so this is gonna be a great show. Stick around! [Theme song] OK, we’re back. Gary Katz, welcome to Careers Out There.

Veteran Carpenter Gary Katz: Hey, thanks for having me Marc – I’m really pleased to be here.

[CAREERS IN CARPENTRY starts at 1:54]
Luber: I’m glad you’re here. Gary, I introduced you as a finish carpentry specialist. What is finish carpentry?

Gary Katz: The best way to describe it is to describe both finish and rough carpentry. Finish carpenters do the work on the inside of the home after the walls have been framed and the dry wall installed, the finish carpenters come in and install the doors and the molding and the shelves and the closets and all the hardware.

Luber: OK.

Gary Katz: And the rough carpenters are the ones who frame the house. They build the framing, they’re the ones who are banging together the studs and making the walls and putting the roof on and that sort of thing.

Luber: OK, wow – very interesting – I never knew that! As a carpenter, do you consider yourself an artist?

Gary Katz: I consider myself a craftsman or an artisan, but not an artist.

Luber: OK.

Gary Katz: I create things from nothing but it’s not art.

[WHAT DOES A CARPENTER DO starts at 2:55]
Luber: OK. Got it. Let’s talk about carpentry in general for a second. Tell us about the scope of things that a carpenter does.

Gary Katz: Oh, it’s so broad, you know, I could talk about it for hours. A finish carpenter in my trade comes on to the job and probably one of the first things he does is install door jams, installs doors and windows on the outside walls and then installs jams for doors and sometimes doors and jams on the inside. And then after the doors and jams are in, the baseboard goes in, just the molding along the floor, then the crown molding goes in which is the molding along the ceilings and at some point or other, maybe wayne’s coating goes in and other decorative moldings, maybe coffered ceilings and stuff that we do in high-end homes, and after the painters are finished, the carpenters come back and they install the hardware on the doors and that would be the locks and the knobs and even the hardware in the bathrooms. So that’s pretty much the scope of the work that we do.

Luber: Wow. So it’s gotta keep it interesting because it’s very broad.

Gary Katz: Yeah, definitely – and it’s always different.

Luber: Is there a typical day for someone who works in this field?

Gary Katz: Yeah, very typical. It usually starts – for me it always started around 5:00 in the morning, getting up and making lunch, getting your lunch in your lunch box because you’ve gotta pack your own lunch or you’re gonna be eating off one of those what we call roach coaches, you know – you’ll be eating off one of those little catering trucks which is kind of dangerous. And so you get to the job site usually, at least I did most of my life, about 6:30. Get there before most of the other guys got there so I could line everything out, organize everything, and everybody works then from 7 in the morning until usually 3-3:30 in the afternoon. Many carpenters work in the early day. They start early and they quit early.

Luber: And is there a plan laid out at the beginning of the day – “today everybody, we are working on THIS”?

Gary Katz: Yes, definitely. There are assignments that specific guys in the crew will get or sometimes the whole crew will be working in one room to complete one – if the rooms are fairly elaborate with a lot of trims or a lot of moldings, the whole crew could wind up in one big room for weeks at a time. And usually the layout – getting everybody laid out on a job happens fairly quickly because it doesn’t take a lot of stuff to keep several people busy. So you can get several carpenters laid out very quickly at work so you can get guys going very quickly.

Luber: OK. Who would you say is a right person for a carpentry career?

Gary Katz: Anyone who likes working with their hands. If you’re the kind of person as a kid who liked taking things apart and then could put things back together again you would probably make a good carpenter, because it’s really – a friend of mine told me recently “a good carpenter is like a good mechanic”. There’s a lot more to the word “mechanic” than just working on cars. Used to be that almost any trades person was considered a good mechanic if they’re really qualified for the job that they did and I feel the same way about carpentry too. It’s a hands-on thing, so if you like seeing your work develop and if you’re the kind of person that learns through the mistakes that you make and enjoys doing that – learning that way – then carpentry’s a great career.

[CARPENTRY SKILLS starts at 5:25]
Luber: And then if someone was thinking about this path, you were telling me earlier that math skills are important. Tell us how they’re important to this field.

Gary Katz: I can’t stress that enough. When sometimes a new hire on our crew, we’ll hire somebody number one if they can show up on time every day and if they can read a tape measure – I mean that’s the very first qualification that we usually use. You need to be able to read a tape measure – you need to be able to isolate and identify those little marks on a tape measure right down to a sixteenth of an inch. And you need to be able to learn how to divide fractions very soon in this career. You need to be able to work with fractional measurements very quickly or you’re just not gonna make it. So that would be the beginning, I’d say, the very basics of the math skills used in construction. But from there, they get a lot more challenging very quickly. If you’re laying out a home, for instance, you’re gonna be using the Pythagorean theorem: that a-squared plus b-squared equals c-squared kind of thing, ya know? You’re gonna be using that a LOT to make sure that the walls are square. If you’re laying out a foundation on a hillside, you’re gonna be using what I learned were tangent and co-sign functions, and these days we use construction calculators for. And also a construction calculator if you’re framing a home, you’re gonna be using that big-time for cutting rafters on a roof – any kind of roof work – or if you’re a finish guy building stairs, my goodness – it’s math intensive!

Luber: Yeah, because you were telling me if you make that one mistake, it just keeps getting worse – it keeps compounding itself, right? All the way through the process?

Gary Katz: Absolutely! And the only way sometimes that you can prevent yourself from making that one mistake is by using math skills to prevent yourself from making mistakes. And it’s something you can rely on -as long as you know it, you can rely on it 100%.

Luber: Got it. And just because you have a calculator, people can’t say “well all I need is a calculator”. You still have to understand the skills and the concepts.

Gary Katz: Absolutely – you have to understand what’s behind it. In our business, we don’t use a normal scientific calculator. We use a construction calculator that simplifies all of that Pythagorean work but still you have to understand what the calculator’s doing.

Luber: OK. And for the people watching who heard you say Pythagorean theorem and instantly reached for their ulcer medication, do they have to be good at math before even looking at this career path?

Gary Katz: No – not at all. I was terrible at math in school. As I said to you earlier, I pretty much refused to take any more math when I went to college. I picked a school where I didn’t have to – just because I was terrified of it. I felt I was stupid, I’d never understand math or trigonometry especially, but I learned from other guys on crews and other guys on job sites that actually I’m pretty good at math! And I use it frequently. As long as I have the tools that enable me to use it easier, and that’s pretty much a construction calculator makes that possible for me.

Luber: Great. So in addition to math, what are the other skills that you’d say are really important for people to bring to the table for this?

Gary Katz: I think tactile skills. Having sensitive hands. And what I mean by that is if you’re the kind of person that’s able to use a screwdriver successfully, you know? Without stripping the screwdriver or something. If you’re the kind of person that can use a hammer to hammer in a nail without leaving too many marks on a piece of wood – that sort of thing. Those kind of skills are very, very important. And I would say also patience. Patience really is important in my business because a lot of the things you’re learning, you’re learning the hard way – and that takes time.

Luber: That makes sense. And then over the phone you were telling me that people skills and business skills are actually important for people who really want to grow and develop within the profession. Can you explain why that is?

Gary Katz: Well the construction business is really all about socializing with other people. I mean the people you’re working with shoulder-to-shoulder you have to get along with, but more than that, you have to get along with your employer and you have to get along with your customers, your clients. And if you want to become successful and then let’s say you want to work for another contractor, an employer for most of your life, you want to become that guy’s right hand arm, you know? You want to become his right hand. You want to be the guy that he goes to and relies on on a job site, which means you have to get along with his customer – and I mean make them happy – that’s your job – it’s customer service. And some people don’t realize that in my business or in any business, I think. There’s often times people don’t realize that “boy, this is all about taking care of people” and you have to have that attitude. And that’s partially when that patience comes in sometimes too, ya know?

Luber: Yeah! And would you say the business skills are important because so often people go off to start their own company and represent themselves rather than being on someone else’s crew?

Gary Katz: Yeah, I think business skills are essential and you hear that from every carpenter and contractor, “boy, I could have been a lot more successful if I’d just been a better businessman.” Or you’ll hear someone say, “he’s a great carpenter but he failed because he was never very good at business.” So I believe that being a good carpenter requires organization. You have to be very organized, you have to be very disciplined, you have to be very prepared – and not just for the jobsite, but at your desk too. You have to discipline yourself in the same way with your business – and computers have helped us enormously as far as that goes, you know, spreadsheets and keeping track of stuff – of bids and paperwork and stuff on a computer is so much easier.

Luber: You were telling me over the phone also that if someone wants to break in to this path, it’s best to go to a certain type of carpentry. What would that be?

Gary Katz: You mean to specialize in a certain type of carpentry?

Luber: Yeah, you were saying not to be the cabinet guy…..

Gary Katz: Oh, yeah. If you want to work in people’s homes and actually build stuff and work on your own and be independent, I believe that there’s an awful lot of cabinet folks in this business and they usually start with a shop in their garage and then they build a shop – they get a big shop or a little one – and then they end up with employees – and before you know it, you’re just a manufacturer. You know, you’re working with C&C machines and you’re just manufacturing cabinets and parts and stuff – or, cause if you want to be a real carpenter, you’re gonna have to work on jobs and one of the best areas to specialize in is finish work and built-ins – because those things have to be done on the job site in people’s homes or in new homes that are being constructed. And it’s an industry and a career that’s gonna always be in demand – people are gonna always – even if they’re not building new homes so much like today, they’re gonna be remodeling those homes – remodeling those homes that they live in or adding on to them or freshening them up and that’s what a finish guy does.

Luber: And so even if there’s a dip right now because of the economy, in construction, it will come back and there will be all kinds of opportunities once again because there’s always gonna be that need.

Gary Katz: Well it always comes back because they’ve always referred to our business as feast and famine. And I think that’s an over-exaggeration. I think there’s just dips and peaks that we run through in the business and sometimes they’re severe and sometimes they aren’t so severe, but you can weather the dips – you can weather the low-points easily if you’re really good. It’s all about reputation and being one of the best. If you’re one of the best, you’re gonna always find work, always have your phones ringing. It might not be ringing off the wall but you’ll always be working.

[BEING A CARPENTER starts at 12:25]
Luber: Excellent. If someone wants to just break in to carpentry period, they want to get in now, what should they do?

Gary Katz: You have to get a job. So the best way to get a job in my opinion is to find a contractor you want to work for. You can’t just go out and start working on your own right away because you don’t know enough. And you’re gonna be working for somebody for a while – so be careful – one of the sayings in my business is “hire slow and fire fast”. Well it works in reverse too, ya know! Research who you want to work for very carefully and find somebody that fits your need. The best way to do that is to run around, drive around your town, find some jobs that are going on that look like the kind of work you’d want to do but keep your eye open for jobs that are well organized, that are run well, that are neat and clean – where the guys are fairly happy. If you walk on to a job and start talking to some guys and they’re friendly, that may be a good place to work. And in a way, remember that the potential contractor is gonna be interviewing you, but you’re gonna be interviewing him too! You’re gonna be seeing how he treats you when you go up to him and say “hey, I’m looking for a job”. And the best way to do it is to do just that. “I’m looking for a job” and be really honest with him about what you know and really honest about what you DON’T know! Don’t give anybody any false hints of expectation or something – and tell them to try you out for a week or two just to see if you fit.

Luber: So if I don’t know anything, I’m brand new, I really don’t know anything, I just think it looks really cool – I want to do it – I just tell them that and just say “just try me”?

Gary Katz: Yup. Tell them you’ll start at the very bottom and promise you’ll show up to work every single day on time and you’ll work hard and if they’re not happy with you, “fire me within a week” or “fire me tomorrow” or “fire me on the first day or in a week but I promise you’ll be happy with what I’ll do – I really want to learn how to do this – I love doing it”. If you’ve done it before, make sure you explain that. You may not get a chance sometimes to talk directly to a contractor. You may not find those kinds of job sites so easily. So the second choice I would say, and not even a second choice but part of the process in finding a good employer is going to lumber yards – material suppliers. If you’re a finish guy, go to a company that sells doors and windows and trim, moldings, and ask them for their advice. Who are some of the better builders they work with? What contractors do they work with? And then you’ll be getting some really good leads because they’ll be judging the better builders and better customers by who’s buying the most from them and who’s paying their bills on time! That will also give you a really good insight into the kind of people you want to work for because you definitely want to work for somebody that pays their bills because they’ll be in the business longer and they’ll be paying you too! So that’s a good kind of way to find a good contractor as well.

Luber: And what is the entry level? What does that mean?

Gary Katz: It could be any number of things. You can start out as just a plain helper who knows nothing. And the first tool that you’ll be using is a broom and a shovel and cleaning up and sweeping and stuff and digging ditches and that sort of thing. I started there myself. I did for a long time. Eventually you work up to wearing a nail apron, a tool bag, a tool belt and you carry a hammer and learn how to use a nail gun and how to install baseboard probably if you’re pursuing a career in finish work. Usually the guys start out learning how to install baseboard and you won’t even be allowed to touch a miter saw for months maybe. You’ll just be learning how to actually nail the material and really install it. And then a guy will start teaching you how to miter – how to miter moldings and things. And baseboard is usually again the place you start so you really don’t have to know a lot. Some contractors prefer their new hires not to know a thing, but other contractors especially serious and high-end finish contractors, will want to hire somebody that has some know-how, some experience.

Luber: So you’ve just gotta find that team that’s willing to let you in and give you a break?

Gary Katz: That’s it.

Luber: And then when you’re getting that break and you’re the clean-up guy, you’re the low-level guy, is it minimum wage? What is someone making there as far as pay?

Gary Katz: It’s funny because minimum wage doesn’t really have a lot to do with pay scale in construction. These days minimum wage in construction is
probably $10 or $15 an hour, depending on the region of the country you work in, whereas minimum wage in the restaurant business is what, $3 or $4 or $5 or something? I don’t even know.

Luber: Yeah, it’s low.

Gary Katz: Construction salaries are higher – you always make more money working construction because you always work a lot harder, at least in most cases. And there’s a lot more demands on you in construction.

Luber: And when you’re part of a crew, you just grow as you build more skills and add more skills to your toolkit you grow to a higher level on that crew? Is that how that works?

Gary Katz: Exactly. And it’s almost an evolutionary process that can’t be stopped, it can be helped with your own eagerness and your own interests and enthusiasm, it can be slowed down if you’re not enthusiastic and you’re not eager, but most jobs – and this is another thing – if the guys you’re working with aren’t willing to share techniques or teach you, that’s another sign that you might want to move on – because if you’re eager to move up, you always want to be working with people who are willing to share things with you. I remember when I used to play tennis in school, somebody said to me once, “always play with people who are BETTER than you”. And this applies definitely to construction.

Luber: Y up.

Gary Katz: So the career track really is in some ways you can kind of define it by saying step 1 is learning how to be a good trim guy: installing casing and moldings. And then to be a really good trim guy, like the top of the heap or something, you’d be a really good crown man too: installing crown moldings and stuff because that’s one of the most challenging types of trims to install. And then another career move would be learning how to hang doors: how to install doors and how to hang them from scratch. That’s a huge challenge. That’s a really big career move to perfect that talent and to perfect that technique.

Luber: And then as you add those things to your skills and you have those things you’re saying, are you now called instead of the low-level guy, the entry-level guy, are you now the “Number 2 guy”? What are you called? Are there titles in this field?

Gary Katz: In some ways. In the beginning you’d be called a “good trim carpenter”. “Here’s my trim guy – he runs all the trim.” “Here’s my door hanger”. The door hanger is often the guy who’s running the job – he’s actually the guy who might be organizing the whole job and telling everybody what to do because he’s usually the most experienced on the job – unless there’s a job superintendent or a job foreman or lead carpenter on the job. Often times the lead carpenter IS the door hanger, the guy who’s setting the doors, because that’s one of the most challenging jobs in the business – but it could also be the stair builder. The stair builder might be the lead carpenter, so it just depends. Those are kind of the steps from a trim guy to a door hanger to a lead carpenter who can organize and run a crew. That’s a big step.

Luber: Because that’s people skills.

Gary Katz: Yes. Be able to work yourself and to keep 2 or 3 guys going at the same time – that is a huge step. And now you’re becoming very valuable.

[EDUCATION FOR CARPENTRY starts at 19:11]
Luber: That makes perfect sense. What about this? What about things that people should study to make themselves better candidates or just better carpenters period? What would you say people should study?

Gary Katz: I’m a big believer in architectural history and understanding architectural styles and terminology. I don’t believe that anybody can succeed well in my business as a finish carpenter without some background understanding of how to design things and some understanding and awareness of different architectural styles: the types of moldings and what kinds of designs are applicable for different architectural styles and the ability to actually use the terminology to express yourself both as a carpenter and in words with a customer so that you can better explain what you can do or what they can do and you know – that’s all about terminology – it’s all about language. So the more language you understand, the more terminology you have, the more power you’ll have. And then of course, you know, there’s all of the techniques you need to learn. And I’m a firm believer in using the internet to pick up new skills, to research techniques and methods of work so that you can improve your actual carpentry skills just by learning from other people. There’s a lot in our business that you can learn from reading books, which has always been there, but today watching videos and DVDs because now you’re actually seeing somebody do it – and if you’re really into it, there are classes you can take – not a whole lot in the construction business – but the kinds of things like I teach, I’m seeing more and more people developing those kinds of opportunities and they’re rare to actually work with a finish guy or watch a finish guy hang a door. It’s different watching a DVD or watching a video when it’s actually seeing a guy do it.

Luber: Yeah, that makes sense for sure. What about school? Would you be saying people should be going to college? Or a community college or vocational school? What’s your take on the educational needs for this?

Gary Katz: Absolutely. I’m 100% behind it. I support them myself. I provide my DVD programs and books frequently around the country to schools and vocational programs and stuff. Even if you have a job, even if you have an entry-level job, going to school is another way of jumping up faster, you know? Improving yourself faster, getting on the fast track, not wasting time kind of leaning back. Lean forward and try to improve yourself more quickly – you’ll make more money and have a lot more fun – and you’ll kind of move up the ladder faster too.

Luber: Now if someone’s sitting in high school watching this video thinking “I want to do what Gary does”, do they – and maybe they’re not a great student, would you say that they really do have to go on to school – to college – or if they feel college is not for them, can they get out there and do like you were saying as far as networking to find that position and just get working?

Gary Katz: Absolutely. The only qualifier I’d say is the more you know, the more experience you have, whether it’s through an educational institution or whether it’s through job site experience, the more attractive you’re gonna be to a potential employer. But at the same time, I’ve gotta say we’ve hired a lot of guys, a lot of kids, straight out of high school who weren’t happy in high school and were FABULOUS carpenters. Just FABULOUS carpenters and surprised themselves how quickly they picked up things that were challenging in school that were much easier to understand on the job site.

[CAREERS IN THE TRADES starts at 22:22]
Luber: OK. I want to talk about this – we had a really interesting discussion the other day on the phone about the concept that the trades are not really respected in America for some reason. And everyone wants to see people who have the white collar job and the college degree and not that there’s anything wrong with a white collar job or a college degree, but for some reason, I get the take, I get the feeling, that we look down on people in the trades. I was actually watching CNN right before we turned on this interview and they were discussing this topic again – that the trades in America – 30% of families – there was a study done – only 30% of families would ever want their kids to go into the trades in America. At the same time, the college tuitions are skyrocketing. What is your take on this and as someone who has worked in the trades AND actually also gone on and graduated college AND has a grad degree, what is your take because you can see both sides? Fill us in on your perspective.

Gary Katz: This is a HUGE subject. There’s so much meat in this to contemplate. Our culture doesn’t respect people that work with their hands. And they haven’t historically ever really since colonial days maybe. Ironically, it was always immigrants – it always has been – still is – immigrants that come into the country that end up doing most of the skilled labor and trade craft in the country, which is a real shame. It’s not that way in other countries at all! Something somehow or other our train got off the tracks, you know, and we started – our country started appreciating and valuing a different kind of lifestyle, which is I think coming home to roost now! We are short of skilled trades people because we don’t respect them. And the shortage is gonna have an impact – over the next few years we’re gonna start seeing it as more and more people my age retire from the business and there’s nobody to fill their boots, ya know? And the guys who are coming up aren’t good enough – if people are complaining about the quality of construction today, just wait!

Luber: Ha! And you were saying too that you could even see it as a professional when on a job – when you’re in someone’s home – that even the level of respect given to you by the homeowner could be way sub-par.

Gary Katz: That is something that if you want to go in to construction, you REALLY need to understand and accept. And that’s part of the whole idea of – I said that it’s one of the requirements – that a guy or woman has to have who wants to go on to this business is PATIENCE. You have to have the confidence in yourself and the patience to understand that when somebody mistreats you, it has no reflection on who you are – you just have to be able to live with that – and concentrate more on who you are and what you’re doing than on the way people are sometimes treating you, because often in this industry, you will be mistreated. There’s no doubt about it. And that’s a reflection of our culture. It’s not a reflection of you as an individual – and it’s a shame but it’s….

Luber: People are bringing this very special skill to the table that obviously the homeowner doesn’t have! You know! I don’t have it! So I HAVE to respect it in someone else. I don’t understand why people look down on that. It’s odd. It’s just something that’s out there and people should be aware of it.

Gary Katz: Yes. It’s just a fact of life and I kind of believe that we’re having a small impact on changing that. We’re having a small influence on changing that as our industry – as the guys in our industry spend more time studying the craft, becoming even more professional, I think continuing education courses in construction are gonna have an impact on that too because really any serious profession has a continuing education requirement or program and construction is going in that direction in the U.S. today too. It’s only a matter of time before continuing education is mandated across the country. Right now it’s very spotty from state to state but it’s going that way. It has to because the construction trade is becoming very very complicated. It’s extremely complicated compared to what it used to be: we’re working with materials and tools that are – that require education – that require serious classes and instruction on how to use properly.

Luber: Another thing that I really love that you brought up that I think should make this path sound exciting to people who are watching and considering it: you were saying that because you have this trade skill, as long as you’ve got your skill and your tools, you can go anywhere! There’s pure freedom by having this craft, right? Tell us about that.

Gary Katz: I have always felt that one of the reasons I wanted to be a carpenter was because I always enjoyed the idea of being a cowboy, you know? Cowboys work – they ride the trail and they work outdoors and they have leather aprons – they wear holsters with guns – and a carpenter wears a tool bag, a tool apron, and he’s got his hammer – and you actually have a nail gun and a screw driver today you know? And I was always attracted to that – but there’s also that sense when you’re a carpenter and you’re very good at your trade – you’re very good at your craft – that you can live anywhere. You can live almost anywhere you want where there’s any degree of construction – any kind of construction going on: a small, small town or a large city or a medium-sized town and support yourself and your family very well. Very comfortably. You’re not gonna get rich, but there are different kinds of rich, you know?

Luber: Right. Money is not everything.

Gary Katz: Right. But once you have the skill, you can go anywhere with it. Once you have the skill and especially once you own your own tools – you’ve invested in both – you know – you and your truck with your tools in it, you’re a very valuable commodity.

Luber: So investing in tools is an important thing that everyone should keep in mind that they’ll want to do once they get started.

Gary Katz: Absolutely. In this trade you’ll be investing in several different things simultaneously. One will be skills and one will be knowledge – book knowledge – academic knowledge – and one will definitely be the money that you put in to your tools – and always with an eye toward investing in each tool like any one would want to invest in a good stock or a good home or a piece of commercial property. Something that pays off well as dividends long term. And that’s what the better tools are that we actually invest in as trades people.

[REWARDS AND CHALLENGES OF CAREERS IN CARPENTRY starts at 26:15]
Luber: Yup. Makes sense. Rewarding. The most rewarding part of being a carpenter. What would you say that is?

Gary Katz: You know, you get to make stuff! And every single day at the end of the day you might be exhausted from working hard but you roll up your tools, you turn around and you look at what you built. You judge yourself – you say “oh look – it’s right – it’s what I imagined it to be before I started – I did a good job”. OR you say “oh look – I screwed that up – next time though I won’t because I learned from that mistake”. So every day you not only see your own work but you see your own growth as a carpenter which is extraordinary. And when that job is done, that mantelpiece you’d been working on for 2 weeks or that coffered ceiling or that library or whatever it is, when that’s complete, you have a sense of fulfillment that’s unparalleled. Very few people have that degree of fulfillment. I can’t think of any other word to describe it. And also everybody’s judging you along the way. Everybody – your co-workers, your customers, your clients, everybody is looking at your work. It’s not like you can hide it underneath a pile of paper or in the back of somebody’s email folder or something. Everybody is looking at it and judging you so it’s – I’m telling you – that’s part of the reward too – sometimes you’ll get their criticism but sometimes you’ll get the affirmation from your colleagues or your co-workers or your customers and that’s immense. It’s tremendous.

Luber: And would you say that the most challenging part – or the thing that would weed people out – the thing where if you can’t handle this, get out – don’t do it – don’t do this path…Would you say it’s what you mentioned before? Just dealing with the people as they turn their noses up at you and not respect you?

Gary Katz: Yes. And I’d say criticism is good word to go into that on. If you’re not comfortable with people criticizing you or mistreating you or people telling you to do something over again because they don’t like it – or people treating you like you’re not very important to them – like “move your truck” 3 or 4 times, or “you can’t park this close to the job – you have to park half a mile away” – then don’t go into this business.

Luber: Right.

Gary Katz: In that sense it’s a very challenging career.

[KEYS TO SUCCESS FOR CAREERS IN CARPENTRY starts at 28:41]
Luber: What about keys to success? Wrap us up with some keys to success where if I break in today, what can you tell me – you have all these years of experience – I’m brand new, I don’t – save me some time – give me some keys to success so I can kick butt in this field.

Gary Katz: I would say some of the things I’ve already mentioned. Learn as fast as you can. Improve as quickly as you can. And that means always be pushing the envelope. Always be going out on a limb to do better work, do nicer work, learn how to work faster and more efficiently, and be learning all the time academically as well. When I say “academically” I mean on the computer or taking classes or watching videos or buying DVDs, buying books, learning more about architecture as well as joinery as well as construction techniques – and pushing the envelope all the time. And also pushing the envelope personally – your people skills, you know? Be challenging yourself when it comes to developing more patience and more understanding of the people you’re working with, and the people you’re working for and you’ll go a long ways – I’m confident of it.

Luber: That’s great advice! Great advice. I hope this is helpful to all you guys. Please leave feedback, questions and comments in the comments section below the video on Careers Out There dot com. Gary, thanks so much for taking your time today.

Gary Katz: You’re welcome! It was a pleasure being here. Thank you Marc.

Luber: Excellent. You guys, you can find Gary in lots of places all over the web – I’m gonna point you to his main site, GaryMKatz dot com. You can find episodes of Careers Out There on iTunes, YouTube, BlipTV and of course at Careers Out There dot com. Thanks again for watching everybody. I’m Marc Luber and look forward to seeing you again soon. Take care.

©2011 Careers Out There

What Do College Recruiters Do 1:20–2:42
How High School Students Can Improve Their College Admissions Odds 2:42-5:29
Traveling for College Recruiter Jobs 5:29-8:05
Who Should Pursue College Recruiting Jobs 8:05-10:12
Compensation For College Recruiting Jobs 10:12-11:22
Breaking In To College Recruiting Jobs 11:22-14:44
Keys To Success For College Recruiter Jobs 14:44-16:38

Careers Out There Host Marc Luber: Hey everyone – on today’s episode of Careers Out There we’re gonna explore careers in college recruitment. And we’re also gonna learn how to talk to a college recruiter if you’re in high school and you want to impress them and increase your odds of getting into that school. Our guest today is Paul Angone. He’s a college recruiter for some grad school programs at a university near Los Angeles. He also runs the website All Groan Up, which is a site that discusses the pleasures and pains of growing up in those years after college. In case you’re new to Careers Out There, in every episode we explore a career path by talking to a real professional who does that kind of work. They tell us what it’s like, how to break in and then how to succeed once you’re there – all to help you decide if it’s the kind of path you want to pursue. I’m your host, Marc Luber, and I really think you’re gonna like meeting Paul. He’s a good guy, so stick around! [theme song] OK, we’re back! Paul, welcome to Careers Out There.

Paul Angone: Hey! It’s great to be here.

Host Marc Luber: Thanks for being here. So Paul and I met at the Jenny Blake event when she was promoting her book, right? When she was here for the Life After College speaking event?

Paul Angone: Yup!

Luber: Jenny was recently a guest on the show and now I’m glad to have Paul here. So as I was saying, Paul is a college recruiter, but he also has the site All Groan Up and we’re gonna talk all about All Groan Up and the book he’s got coming out this coming spring. But first, let’s learn about what it’s like to be a college recruiter. Paul, I’ve never interacted with a college recruiter before. I went to the University of Michigan, huge school.

Paul Angone: Sure

[WHAT DO COLLEGE RECRUITERS DO starts at 1:20 ]
Luber: I wasn’t recruited there, I just went there. What does a college recruiter do?

Paul Angone: Basically a college recruiter is someone that will travel around for months and will be out there just talking about their school. Going to high schools, going to college fairs, trying to connect with students and basically trying to drum up a lot of interest for students to apply to their schools. So for pretty much the entire Fall, these recruiters are out. So I worked in California and I’d be in Colorado, Washington, Oregon, San Diego, Texas….You’re just a traveling salesman in a way, but you’re talking about school. You’re talking about your school and if it’s the right fit. And you’re trying to get students to come back and visit you. So you’re going out there and meeting those students and then you’re coming back and when they’re applying, you’re now the one that’s starting to read applications. And a lot of the times, especially at smaller schools, but even a medium-sized school, that recruiter might be the person making the decision on the college application. And so you really switch from going out and being out on the road to being in your office and reading applications, interviewing students and then making a decision whether or not they’re admitted.

[HOW HIGH SCHOOL STUDENTS CAN IMPROVE THEIR COLLEGE ADMISSIONS ODDS starts at 2:42]
Luber: So then how can a student impress upon you so that they increase the chances of actually getting in to the school?

Paul Angone: Gosh, students have a great opportunity at really putting their name and their application above the rest. Especially, it’s so competitive nowadays. So many students are applying to these schools and they can only admit so many students. And so a way to really put yourself above the rest of the applicants is going and connecting with that recruiter because, like I said, a lot of time they want the recruiter that’s in a specific area reading all the applications from that area itself. So it’s really like a job interview. You get to meet the person that’s gonna interview you and make your decision. They’re almost like coming to your house and they’re wanting to meet you. And you get to make an impression. And so I think a lot of students, they don’t necessarily realize that so when a school comes and visits them they don’t even show up to the presentation and if they do they just sit there and listen and then they leave with a group of their friends. But you’d better believe the students that would come up to me, shake my hand, introduce themselves, look me in the eye, talk to me…

Luber: They’ll stand out!

Paul Angone: I would remember their name!

Luber: Right!

Paul Angone: And then when they apply I would be like “oh”! And gosh, if you send a thank you note or even an email saying, “hey I met you at the school, thanks, you did such a good job,” you know you butter up the recruiter a little bit. You know, you’re gonna stand out because now you’re a face behind the name. And that’s always key. You’re a real person now. Instead of just being another name, another essay, because they read so many, you’re a real person! You’re a face and you’re a story. And it’s much harder to say “no” to a real person than it is saying “no” to a piece of paper. And so students have that great opportunity and it’s just right there waiting for them.

Luber: Wow! So what’s a typical conversation that you would have with a student?

Paul Angone: Well typically you don’t really have that great of conversations because students, I think, are a little nervous to come up to you. They’re fearful, they’re with their friends, they don’t want to look like, “I don’t want to be the dork going up and talking to the college recruiter”, you know. They’re trying to play it cool. But when a student would come up to you, the conversations you’re having is just “hey what do you like, what are you interested in”, you know. “What are you passionate about?” You’re just trying to get to know them. Because as a recruiter that’s really what you’re trying to do. You’re just trying to make a connection and get to know the students. So it’s really laid back and most recruiters, I mean, they’re in their early 20s, mid-20s. These are recent young professionals and they’re fun to talk to. They’re very charismatic, outgoing, and it’s really just a casual conversation but one that could really make a difference later on for the students especially.

[TRAVELING FOR COLLEGE RECRUITER JOBS starts at 5:29]
Luber: Interesting. And so when you’re first traveling to meet all these people, where is it that you’re going and speaking?

Paul Angone: Yeah, so for about a month , all of August as a college recruiter, you are setting up an entire schedule where you’re calling high school counselors so the school counselor, and you’re setting up a time to come visit. You’re setting up those times around college fairs because there’s college fair circuits that will go on in different states. So let’s say it’s October. There’s a week where there’ll be 6 college fairs within Colorado. And those college fairs will be spaced out in different cities around Colorado, so basically have this band of recruiters all traveling around to go to those fairs at night. That’s that huge room, all the colleges are there and families will come in and you’ll go around from table to table and meet and talk to that school to see if it’s a good fit, get a brochure, that kind of thing. But during the day, you have to fill your time and you’re wanting to make it useful so that’s why you’re scheduling high school visits within that city. And typically you’re going to high schools where you’ve received students from in the past. And so if it’s a school that you got a bunch of students before, you want to go back to that school because you know there’s gonna be a lot more students that have heard about the school from their friends. So you’re going to high schools and college fairs. That’s really what your days are looking like on the road.

Luber: So since you’re all traveling around to the same places, do you get to know the recruiters from other schools? You know, like, “ah – there’s that one again – I gotta meet up with that guy!”

Paul Angone: Oh most definitely. It’s your family. You don’t know anybody else. Typically you’ve just come from college with all your friends and now you’re on the road staying in some random hotel in Fort Worth, Texas and it’s like who are you gonna go hang out with? And it can get lonely! I think anybody that travels a lot you kind of feel that. So it’s really nice that you have this group of really like-minded, same age, same kind of interest people that you’re all traveling around. So it’s not a competitive environment at all. You’re not competing for students. You’re really like a family. And after a fair, a lot of the time, let’s see how a college fair gets done at 9. You’re going out with a group afterwards to go grab a bite to eat, to travel around and connect. So actually, I met my wife as a recruiter for a competing school! So that’s how we met – at a conference!

Luber! Wow! That’s great! That’s funny!

Paul Angone: Yeah. As admissions counselors. It’s like camp – like this camp syndrome – where you’re all traveling around together and you get to know each other really well and who knows – maybe you find your spouse like I did!

[WHO SHOULD PURSUE COLLEGE RECRUITING JOBS starts at 8:05]
Luber: Yeah. Yeah! So from the people who are watching, who would you say, “you guys should really check out this career”? What are the things you would say fit people? Obviously, you have to be willing to travel. You’ve gotta be the kind of person who likes traveling.

Paul Angone: Yeah, you’ve gotta be willing to travel. Public speaking is a big part of it. So I think for myself, I was a communication studies major, so it was a good fit. You don’t have to be this extreme extrovert. You don’t have to be this amazing public speaker. But you have to be OK with getting in front of groups. It could be as small as 2 students or it could be as big as a room full of thousands of families. You know, for Preview Day or something like that and you’re up talking. So I think that’s 1. I think somebody, it becomes a really good fit, especially at your own school if you really liked your experience at your school, because a lot of times schools want to hire their alumni to be admissions counselors for that school because you have just a plethora of stories to tell. You’re not just talking about classes in this abstract way. You’re talking about the experience in your junior class when you had that professor and you guys went out to lunch and he mentored you, that kind of thing. So they really do like alumni because they know that you can go to a certain depth with that. And then I think it’s for people that want to get some experience in things like marketing and advertising and recruiting and some skills that you can then take and go to a lot of different places with. But you really will touch on a lot of different pieces that you can then leverage and start doing projects more and more let’s say on the marketing side, that you can then leverage if you wanted to get out of education at some point or to just get more of a marketing role within education. So you really get a good base of skills. It’s a really good profession to learn a lot of those base skills.

Luber: That’s great! Any job that gives you a lot of opportunity to grow multiple skill sets is a great job.

Paul Angone: Yeah! Exactly.

[COMPENSATION FOR COLLEGE RECRUITING JOBS starts at 10:12]
Luber: Because then like you say you could take it anywhere and go in any direction that may interest you later in life. That’s really important. What about pay? Is this the kind of job where you’re paid a salary? Or are you paid like a commission based on how many students you get to come to the school?

Paul Angone: Yeah, that’s a great question! Typically it’s a salary. You’re just paid straight salary. It has nothing to do with how many students you get to come, that kind of thing. Now some school, more on the for profit side, so schools, maybe a school like University of Phoenix or a different school, they did have a different model in the past where they would – it would be kind of a commission or having certain goals and monetary goals. But I think that’s gonna really – I think that’s already changed and started to change to where it’s gonna be just straight salary.

Luber: The government’s cracking down.

Paul Angone: There’s some ethical dilemmas there – especially if you’re the one reading that application from a student that you possibly could receive something from if they came. There’s kind of an ethical dilemma there. So I think they’ve really shifted away from that to where you’re just salary. You have goals that you want to hit but you’re not gonna be compensated for that. You’re just doing your job as best you can.

[BREAKING IN TO COLLEGE RECRUITING JOBS starts at 11:22]
Luber: Right. Makes perfect sense. What about if someone wants to break in? If someone’s watching and they’re like, “I want to do what Paul does! This sounds great!” What would you tell them?

Paul Angone: You know, I would say first start with your own school. I would say just contact maybe someone that you’ve met and maybe you’re still in college and especially if you’re in college, I would definitely go into the admissions office and try to get an internship or become a tour guide or become one of the counselors that’s on the phone calling students. Definitely when you’re in college, that’s the best time. That’s how I did it. I started as a tour guide – you know, one of those student workers that would take families around and show them the campus. That’s a great way to make that instant connection. But let’s say you’re out of college. I would say just go back – go back to your school and go to the admissions office and meet – try to get an interview or go and meet one of the counselors and say, “I’m really intrigued about this job.” If your school is not hiring, I’d start looking at similar competitor schools. So let’s say you went to a smaller school, I would go o those other smaller schools in the region and say “hey, I went to this other school, it’s very similar, so I know what it’s like to be a student in this kind of school” or “I went to this big state school, I know what it’s like, so I can easily relate that experience at this school.” I would just drop by and try to meet the right people because you can send in an application, you can look for the openings on web sites, but it’s always great again, obviously, to put a face to a name.

Luber: Yeah, for sure. And now there’s also grad school recruiting, not just undergrad recruiting. So that expands the pool of places people could look at. You’ve done both! Tell us what’s the difference between the 2?

Paul Angone: You know, grad school is really different, I think in a lot of ways, because mainly you’re not recruiting as much. At least where I work, you’re not recruiting as much across the whole nation. You’re really recruiting at a very domestic level. So you’re recruiting, let’s say, I work in California, so I’m mainly just in Southern California. And so you might go to fairs but they’re at universities just around the area. So you’re not going and doing presentations as much in schools, you’re mainly just going to fairs. So you’re in the office a lot more and you’re not traveling around as much. And then you’re not really gonna be the one making the decisions as well. I mean, that’s gonna be going to specific departments. You know, if a student’s applying to be a marriage and family therapist, obviously as a grad enrollment counselor, you don’t have the experience to make that decision. It’s very specialized now. So that program director of marriage and family therapy is gonna be making the decision.

Luber: OK.

Paul Angone: So you become a lot more specialized, I’d say. And you’re working with more of an adult population now so you’re not doing as “rah rah” of a presentation and you’re not talking about this life changing experience of living on campus and taking classes, that kind of thing. You’re more just talking about “hey, this is how you can get this degree done, it’s gonna take you this amount of time”. It’s more black and white, I would say.

Luber: OK.

Paul Angone: So there’s the pros and cons with that and I think it fits people differently. But I know for grad enrollment counselors a lot of the time they’re also looking for people who have a master’s degree or are pursuing a master’s degree because they want you to speak about it from your experience as well.

[KEYS TO SUCCESS FOR COLLEGE RECRUITER JOBS starts at 14:44]
Luber: Yeah, that makes sense. This sounds really good! Tell us this – a few bullet point keys to success for those people who do break in and get that job right now, to get started.

Paul Angone: Success once you have that job?

Luber: Yup.

Paul Angone: I would say, first of all for a grad enrollment counselor or an undergrad enrollment counselor?

Luber: Either one.

Paul Angone: Any of them?

Luber: Yup.

Paul Angone: I would say first of all that you’re gonna enter into a great network of professionals. And whenever you’re at fairs or you’re at conferences, you’ll go and meet a lot of your fellow professionals at other schools. I would say make as many connections as you can. Talk to people and exchange business cards and start building up that network right away. Because these are people that 1: might lead to a job opportunity down the road at a different school. They might just be a great resource for you if you have questions, like “hey how do you effectively recruit” or “how do you do these things”? Basically it’s a great family to enter into. So I’d say start making those connections right away because those will be a very important part of you growing in that career, making those kind of connections. And then I would say when you start doing the job you’re gonna be asked to do a lot of different things and I would say start trying to pinpoint that area that you really are drawn to. So is it the more policies, procedures side, is it the recruiting aspect, is it the marketing, you know, thinking of creative marketing campaigns. And I would say start getting projects more and more within that specialty because you want to start honing in because you’ll be so broad, I think you’ll really want to start honing in so you can start growing in that area so that then when a school’s looking for an assistant director of mark3eting you can say “well I’ve done 2 years of marketing, here’s all the things that I’ve done.” So you can leverage that a lot easier.

Luber: That’s great. Great advice! So tell us this – what’s happening at All Groan Up dot com?

Paul Angone: Sure! Yeah, that’s the website I have started to basically help people that are going through this 20-something transition of “what now?” that aren’t quite – aren’t really feeling like you’re growing up any more and you don’t really feel like you’re grown up – you feel like you’re somewhere in between. And I know I felt kind of, this kind of awkward limbo stage where you feel like well it should be just more black and white, like somehow you cross a threshold of “I’m now an adult” or “I now have my career” or “I have my marriage and a kid and a white picket fence, I have it figured out.” And I think in today’s day and age, it doesn’t really work like that any more! It’s such a process. It’s been hard for a lot of people to even find a career that really fits them. You know, the 20s is really a process I think of almost figuring out more of what you DON’T want to do than it is sometimes figuring out what you want to do. Relationships, you know, we’re getting married at an older and older age, we’re having kids at an older and older age, we’re being asked to go do graduate school, get a master’s degree, get a doctorate degree to be competitive, and so it’s really delaying this process of becoming I think just feeling like you’ve become an adult. You feel like you have it figured out. So that’s really what the website’s about. It’s about that conversation of career, relationships, faith, what it means to be an adult, this conversation going on online as a resource for really 20-somethings that are going through that process.

Luber: Awesome! And then what about your book? What’s happening with the book? Are You My Life, right? That’s the title?

Paul Angone: Yes! It’s called Are You My Life, Searching For Self, Faith and a Freaking Job. It’s my story, really, from college graduation on as I’m going through that process of “now what”. It’s my funny, sarcastic, angry a t times but in the end hopeful and encouraging as far as this is kind of the process I went through in a couple years span of time as I started asking those questions of, “OK, now what do I do?” Because I think you go through college and everything is so linear. You just keep taking these steps. You know, “I’m gonna go to college and I’m gonna find a major and I’m gonna do an internship.” You just keep taking these steps and then you graduate and it’s like you just entered this whole world where there’s no more steps, there’s no more syllabus, there’s no textbook, there’s no professor telling you this is how you have to do it to be successful. And so it’s this process of, “OK, how do I navigate the world now with these skills that I’ve gained, how do I plug that in to the next 10 years, 20 years, my life?” And so that’s what my book’s about is wrestling with that process because again, it’s not as straight forward I think as I thought it would be or as kind of people make it sound like it will be.

Luber: Right.

Paul Angone: So I’m hoping my book will really identify with people who are going through that stage and really wrestling with the “now what” of their 20s.

Luber: That’s great. Good luck with it!

Paul Angone: Sure!

Luber: It comes out this Spring? That’s when it’s available?

Paul: Yup, that’s right!

Luber: And as a taste, people could get a taste of it now at your site, is that right?

Paul Angone: Yup, they could go to All Groan Up dot com and there’s a tab at the top that says “book” and you can download a chapter to get a feel for it and just check out the website and connect with me there.

Luber: Excellent! You guys, please feedback, questions and comments in the Comments section below the video at Careers Out There dot com. Paul, thanks again for joining us!

Paul Angone: Hey, thanks Marc! Great to be here.

Luber: Excellent. You guys could find Paul at All Groan Up dot com. To see how to spell it, just look at the chalk board right behind him! You can find episodes of Careers Out There on YouTube, BlipTV, iTunes and of course at Careers Out There dot com. Thanks again for watching everybody. I’m Marc Luber and look forward to seeing you again soon. Take care.

©2011 Careers Out There

What Do Industrial Hygienists Do 0:56-11:02
Who Fits Industrial Hygienist Careers 11:02-17:11
Education For Industrial Hygienist Careers 17:11-22:57
Most Rewarding Part of Industrial Hygienist Careers 22:57-24:43
Most Challenging Part of Industrial Hygienist Careers 24:43-28:43
Breaking In To Industrial Hygiene Careers 28:43-33:$3
Keys To Success For Industrial Hygiene Careers 33:43

Careers Out There Host Marc Luber: Hey everyone – on today’s episode of Careers Out There we’re gonna explore environmental health careers. We’ll be talking to Meagan Yoshimoto Clark. She’s a certified industrial hygienist who works for a health and safety consulting firm in Seattle. On every episode of Careers Out There, we’re helping you find a career that fits you. We explore a career path by talking to a real professional who does that kind of work – and they tell us what it’s really like and share all kinds of advice with us to help YOU decide if it’s the kind of path you want to pursue. I’m your host Marc Luber and until a week ago, I’d never even heard of industrial hygiene careers. So I’m psyched Meagan’s here today to share her more than 6 years of experience with us so we can all learn together. It’s gonna be a great show so stick around! [theme song] OK we’re back! Meagan, welcome to Careers Out There.

Industrial Hygienist Meagan Yoshimoto-Clark: Thank you. Happy to be here!

[WHAT DO INDUSTRIAL HYGIENISTS DO starts at 0:56]
Host Marc Luber: Great. I’m glad you’re here. So Meagan, I was telling the audience in the intro that I’d never even heard of industrial hygiene careers until a week ago when we talked. So can you tell us what that is and what an industrial hygienist does?

Meagan Yoshimoto-Clark: Yeah absolutely! I didn’t know what industrial hygiene was before college either. And my family still really doesn’t understand what I do all that well! But industrial hygienists are scientists focused on protecting people in the workplace: protecting them from potential hazards. We don’t deal with environmental concerns like protecting water quality, protecting air quality. We focus on protecting people at work. So that might be a construction site, it might be a manufacturing facility, it might be a hospital or schools or even homes. There are hazards in all kinds of work environments and people need to be aware of them and comply with safety rules.

Luber: So these ARE environmental hazards, right? You’re saying you’re not dealing with the environment but you mean you’re not dealing with nature in that sense, but you are dealing with the workplace environment, right?

Meagan: Correct. Absolutely. The “built” environment is what we call it versus protecting bugs and bunnies.

Luber: Ha! OK. So someone could be working in a factory and they could be getting exposed to some kind of horrible poison. You’ve gotta figure that out and solve the problem.

Meagan: Yes. And the real challenge becomes in our modern world there are all kinds of new products and new chemicals being developed all the time. And so while we have a good idea about some of the older ones, the newer ones don’t have reliable test methods and we don’t really know what their effect on people will be.

Luber: Ha! You know what I found real interesting? On the phone you were telling me about the history of industrial hygiene. Tell everyone about that.

Meagan: Sure! Industrial hygiene is a relatively new field and it started off about 100 years ago with the realization that your job has a big effect on your health and it came about through physicians examining sick patients and realizing the importance of asking these people what their jobs were. For example, they’d see a lot of men with lung problems who worked in the mines. So it seemed to be a logical connection to make between your job and your health. Another example is there are people who make hats and they use mercury in the felting process and mercury damages your brain and nerves and so you had these people who basically went crazy! And you get the term “mad hatter”, like the character in Alice in Wonderland!

Luber: Ha! I love Alice in Wonderland! So tell me this – you were saying that you work with things like even chemo drugs. I talk a lot on the website about cancer because my mom passed away from cancer and I’ve featured some cancer charities, so I’m always curious about that. And that also sheds some light on other aspects of what you do for our audience – can you tell us an example with a chemo drug what you would do with that?

Meagan: Yeah, absolutely. Chemo drugs are kind of a double-edged sword. They can help people who have cancer but if you don’t have cancer it’s possible to get cancer from being exposed to chemo drugs. And some of the population that might have potential exposures to chemo drugs are those health care technicians who mix the chemo drugs or the nurses who administer the chemo drugs. And so we might have industrial hygienists go in and work at the workplace where they’re mixing and administering the drugs and figure out how to prevent contact with the drugs and keep those health care personnel from developing cancers in their attempts to heal others who already have it.

Luber: Such a cool career! It’s so different! I have so many questions for you – I want to know how you do it and how you know how to do it, but before we even get to that, I want to learn about a typical day so that we could kind of picture what an industrial hygienist is doing just on a normal day. Can you walk us through that?

Meagan: Well I’m a consultant. I don’t have any one particular client. We work for many around the local area. So a typical day for me would be having already coordinated the job with the client and the day we’re gonna show up. I would come into the office and gather equipment and that could be sampling equipment, meters, air monitors and lab forms and all the things we’d need to collect samples and investigate the site. And that also includes safety gear for us.

Luber: Talk about the safety gear. You sent me some great pictures of you. I’ll put them up here. A crazy suit and a crazy mask! What’s that all about?!

Meagan: Yes! When you don’t know what hazards are gonna be in the environment, and often times we don’t, we want to err on the side of caution so we have all these chemical resistant suits and there’s different levels of protection. Probably what you’re seeing there is a yellow suit and that is a mercury vapor-resistant suit. And I’m wearing a respirator to protect myself from inhaling mercury vapors. That particular job was a mercury spill.

Luber: OK, got it. Wow – scary! OK, so go on. You grab all your gear, you put on your gear, you go to the workplace.

Meagan: Yes. I would load up the car, I would drive to the site, and then we’d get there and meet with the client and we usually do a walk through the site just to get the lay of the land and we check out the different processes that they do there. We usually like them to point out the most high-risk ones to us. And then, once we figure out a sampling plan or an investigation strategy based on what we see there, we go and get all the equipment out and collect samples. I REALLY enjoy talking with the employees at the site. They’re the ones who really know what’s going on: where their risks are and they really know the most technically about the process. It’s always fun to hear from them. And I think the info that they give you is very crucial.

Luber: OK.

Meagan: After that we’d collect all the samples and then we’d load back up the car and drop samples at the lab and return to the office, of course making sure we decontaminated ourselves and our gear. You never want to wear gear you’ve worn in the field in your car back into the office.

Luber: Oh right!

Meagan: Yes.

Luber: That makes sense. OK, so then you go back to the office.

Meagan: And then after we get our sample results back from the laboratory, we would then write up a report about our findings. And of course if there’s anything that the client needed to know about immediately in order to make immediate changes to protect their employees, we do that over the phone. Otherwise we write up a report and issue that to them.

Luber: So you take the lab information and write up your technical report – is that report also giving instructions on how to fix the problem? Are you also planning how to remove this problem from the workplace?

Meagan: Yes. We often make recommendations based on those results about how to make the workplace safer and to minimize the exposure risk. That can be changes in ventilation, that can be changing the product entirely, getting rid of the hazardous product and substituting a less hazardous one, that could be minimizing time people are working with that particular hazardous product. Or, in the worst case scenario, if you can’t change any of those then we’d start protecting people with gloves, suits, maybe respirators. But that’s kind of the last resort.

Luber: And then do you guys come in and make those fixes once they’re approved by the company?

Meagan: At times we do, in the sense that we can provide training to the employees and educate them about the product that they’re working with or the hazards that are involved with their process and teach them about health effects with it or signs and symptoms to look for and why protections are important and how those protections work.

Luber: Got it. And so if it’s not you that’s doing the implementation, who would be?

Meagan: The company, our client, would take it upon themselves to implement the changes and do employee training themselves and follow-up. Because they’re the ones there every day. They’re the ones there on site, they have the most access to the process and they can check in on people and do surprise inspections on their employees and make sure that everyone is doing the new process the right way.

Luber: That makes sense. So would the lab be – there’s lab technicians, I assume, who are studying the samples that you’ve gathered, and then they’re reporting back to you in scientific language saying “blah blah blah, this place is poison” and then you’re taking that and putting it into English so that everyone else can understand it? Is that what’s going in to the report you’re typing up?

Meagan: Almost. The laboratory technicians speak in numbers only. So they give us a value. “Your sample had 36 parts per million of solvent” or “your sample had 50 micrograms of lead per cubic meter” and then we take that and, yes, translate it into English and try to phrase it in the reports so that employers can hand that report to their employees and have it be easily understandable.

Luber: Now who’s calling you out to the site in the first place? Is it someone at the workplace who’s saying “I smell poison”? I mean what’s happening that’s starting this whole thing going?

Meagan: Ha! Marc, I hope you’re not smelling poison that often! But yes, usually it’s the owner of the company or a safety manager or a manufacturing manager or somebody who’s in management of some kind. We really aren’t able to respond to employee complaints. There is a state agency that handles employee complaints. But we usually come out at the request of a particular company to help them make their workplace safer for their employees.

Luber: So they’ll have a concern that “there might be something that we’re generating through our daily grind of work that’s gonna be hurting our employees. We want to make sure it’s not, so can you come out, see if it is and if it is, we want to remove that problem or tweak it as much as possible so that it’s as minimally dangerous as possible.” Is that it?

Meagan: Yeah. It could be in response to employee complaints or it could be in response to starting a new process or using a new chemical in their process and they don’t really know what it’s going to be like so they have us come out as a preemptive measure and research that product for them before they start using it.

[WHO FITS INDUSTRIAL HYGIENIST CAREERS starts at 11:02]
Luber: OK, wow! This is very cool. Alright, so I want to know how you do this. So we’ll get to formal education in a minute but first let’s go to what skills you’re using. How you’re figuring out whether there’s an environmental issue.

Meagan: Well I think that observation skills are key. And like I said before, speaking with the employees is where I get some of my best information. Also speaking with safety personnel, if that company has it. Always being a fly on the wall for the day and watching what people do. You might have some employees saying “I have developed a rash on my hands” and you notice that that employee is the one employee who’s not wearing gloves in the room.

Luber: Ha!

Meagan: So gently and tactfully pointing that out is sometimes an easy fix.

Luber: In a case like that, sorry to interrupt. So in a case like that, your report would be “hey company XYZ, you don’t really have a problem here, you just have a dumb employee who’s not wearing their damn gloves!” Is that basically what you’d be doing?

Meagan: Ha! I’m not sure I would use the word “dumb”. I would probably say “you really need to create and enforce your glove use policy” is what I would say. Enforce your personal protective equipment policy. Hygiene is huge and just keeping things off your skin or washing up really well before you eat, drink, smoke or apply makeup is a big deal when you’re trying to prevent contact dermatitis or skin rashes.

Luber: OK, wow! And you gave me an example that I really liked on the phone the other day that there might be someone who’s family is sick so they’re concerned that everyone’s taking home toxins from work but it turns out that there’s this one guy at the company who’s always leaving work early because he’s got new babies at home so he wants to rush home early and so he’s not decontaminating every day when he’s leaving the plant or the factory or the office, the lab, and taking home the contaminants, whereas all the other employees are washing down and so that one family is sick because again, it’s like the guy who didn’t wear the gloves you just mentioned! Right? It’s someone who’s not doing what they’re supposed to when leaving the workplace!

Meagan: Yeah. A tracking hazard is a big deal. And you don’t want people taking home contaminants on their clothes, on their shoes and tracking it into their car and then loading up their baby in the same car, and then the baby drops McDonald’s French fries on the floor and then he eats them. So, I don’t know if babies eat French fries, but you know!

Luber: Yeah.

Meagan: But it is a big deal and as part of your observation skills, you would want to, when you’re chatting with this particular person, if they mention how they’re late every day to pick up their kids, you know they might be rushing at the end of the day and maybe not doing as good a job decontaminating as they should, slowing down and taking the time. So you have to be aware of people’s emotions, where their head is at, and that they’re not always thinking safety. So you have to do that for them and give reminders.

Luber: So you’re like an investigative journalist in a way!

Meagan: A little bit in the sense that I think you have to get people to like you if they’re gonna open up to you and tell you about their day and tell you how they work. Nobody likes to have someone standing there watching them work. I would feel mortified if somebody watched me! So they’re nervous already, they may be defensive, you never know what’s going on politically at their company, maybe their health care benefits just got cut so they’re already angry in general and aren’t really in the mood to follow all the rules that they should be to protect themselves but the problem with that is that they’re only punishing themselves if they’re exposing themselves.

Luber: Right. OK so then you’ve got the problem solving skills, the research skills, the investigative skills, so you’ve gotta be really analytical…

Meagan: Yup.

Luber: But it sounds like you’ve also gotta have really good communication skills and good people skills, right?

Meagan: Absolutely. Our audience can vary widely, even within a given day. We speak with engineers, we speak with architects, we speak with welders, we speak with concrete workers, a lot of the people have English as a second language so you have to really be able to communicate clearly and simply and in terms that people can understand. So for engineers, in order to get them on board with us, we get a little bit more technical to get them excited about what we’re doing and what we can help them with. Somebody else who maybe doesn’t really care about those technical details, we try to bring it home to them and say “this is not just about you, this is about protecting your family at home because you need to follow these safety rules because we want to send you home in the same condition you got to work in for your babies.”

Luber: Very interesting. So you’re speaking many different languages in a sense so then you really need those communication skills and to understand how to massage different people and egos.

Meagan: We try to figure out what matters to them and try to use that to get them to be on board with our recommendations.

Luber: Such a unique career! This is really cool. I like this. So let’s see – personality type. It’s gotta take a certain type of personality to be able to do this. Talk a little bit about that.

Meagan: Well I think that becomes the problem: industrial hygienists are scientists but we’re also workplace detectives. So you have to have this balance of good technical background but also be a people person and be a fairly good communicator! So I think that it’s a rare skill set – most scientists who are really, really good scientists don’t care to interact with people that much. They care to be in their laboratory and with their analytical tools.

Luber: You mentioned “scientist”. Are you technically an “environmental scientist”?

Meagan: I would say so. We call our profession “industrial hygiene” or “occupational safety and health” or “occupational health” and I do have a science background, yes.

[EDUCATION FOR INDUSTRIAL HYGIENIST CAREERS starts at 17:11]
Luber: OK, yeah. Let’s get into that too. I want to learn about the formal education that’s necessary so that people watching can say “this sounds so cool – I want to be Meagan one day” so they can figure out what kind of education they have to go through. So do you go to college for this and major in industrial hygiene? How does this work?

Meagan: I did, yes. It wasn’t in industrial hygiene, specifically, but I have a broader degree called Environmental Health. And within environmental health is the subset of industrial hygiene and I chose to focus on that. It was a 4 year degree and I do have a background in – they require chemistry classes, organic and inorganic, they require physics, calculus, technical writing and then to get into the major, more specific topics like wastewater management, hazardous materials, toxicology and environmental health overall.

Luber: Wow. Interesting blend of stuff! So then if people want to do this, should they be looking for environmental health programs? What kind of programs at universities should they be looking for?

Meagan: I think that industrial hygiene is an excellent major for the career but I’ve also seen other people come into this career through other majors such as geology, chemistry, biologists, engineers make great industrial hygienists. As long as you have a scientific background and understand how to create a sampling scheme or an experimental method and you understand the limits of the equipment that you’re using, what they’re good for or what might interfere with them. I think that as long as you get your brain inspired by that, you could come to industrial hygiene from any number of majors. I also know several industrial hygienists who don’t have 4 year degrees and while they may not go as far on the career path, they make excellent field staff.

Luber: OK. Huh! I want to talk about that too – for people who DON’T have a college degree. Because you were saying that people can work in this path without a college degree. There are people you’re interacting with. Can you tell us about that?

Meagan: Absolutely. Some of our best field technicians come to us through construction backgrounds. Maybe they helped their dad build houses for the summer. Understanding buildings and the way they work often has a big impact on people’s health and safety inside that building. Another person who was an excellent, excellent industrial hygiene technician was someone who came to us through a hazardous materials remediation company and mold remediation company. They understand how to clean these materials up and therefore have the basic idea of how these chemicals might behave in the environment.

Luber: Wow, OK. That’s great! So then that’s another example where you’d be interacting with them but wearing a different hat and kind of speaking a different language than you are with the engineers.

Meagan: Correct. Sometimes the best representatives of health and safety are those people who have done manufacturing or done construction for most of their lives and the reason is they have an added credibility with the crews or the people who are working the shift because they know that this person has done what they’ve done. They know this person has experienced what they have: has built the airplane, has built the building before, and knows what goes into that. So these people use their added credibility to get other people on board with them.

Luber: OK. Very interesting. It’s really cool. So SO many different kinds of people, with all these different degrees or not even degrees, all these different kinds of backgrounds can come into this path and play a big role.

Meagan: Absolutely. If you’re willing to put in the time and remember the technical importance of things, you can use your background and your social skills in a big way.

Luber: I love it! OK so now tell us this – let’s say someone’s watching right now and they’re in high school and they want to grow up to be you. They should start, I assume, to take lots of science classes? Is that the deal?

Meagan: Absolutely. That’s what I would recommend. And know that as long as you have those classes, you can go in any number of directions. So take your chemistry classes, take your math classes, take your physics classes, biology, genetics, all of those – and yeah, they’re gonna be a little bit tough but if you can make it through, there are a lot of different options.

Luber: I think you said at the beginning of the interview when I said I had never heard of industrial hygiene, that there was a time when you hadn’t either. So when you were in high school, it’s not like you were saying, “I, Meagan, can’t wait to grow up one day and be an industrial hygienist”. Right? When did you figure this out and learn that this was a path?

Meagan: Yeah! I was in my 3rd year of college and still had not declared a major and was getting heavy pressure from not only the university but from my parents to hurry up and get out of school. And at the time, my part-time student job was working as a payroll assistant in the school of public health. And I handled the grant documentation for professors. One day when a professor came to pick up his paperwork from me, he said “why aren’t you a student in this department” and I said “because I don’t know what you do here!” And he proceeded to explain to me what the focus was and asked me what kind of background I had and what classes I had been taking and he said “you could apply today and you could be in this major the following quarter”. And I was really excited about the type of work that he described and figured that was exactly what I was looking for: a practical use of my science skills. I’m not one to be a lab rat!

Luber: Yeah, and this gets you out and about and you’re running around in different workplaces, so you’re not stuck in a lab, yet you still get to be a scientist!

Meagan: Yeah.

Luber: You’re the SOCIAL scientist!

Meagan: Close, yeah!

[MOST REWARDING PART OF INDUSTRIAL HYGIENIST CAREERS starts at 22:57]
Luber; Yeah, you get to be social….OK, I want to learn how you break in. How someone breaks in to this career. But first I want to talk about what you would say is the most rewarding part of doing what you do.

Meagan: I think knowing that on a daily basis, I’m making people’s lives better and helping to protect them and their health, whether they know it or not and sometimes whether they like it or not! Knowing that we’re really doing good work on things that everyone is concerned about – staying healthy for their families – nobody wants to get cancer. Nobody wants to, worse, have it be related to their job that they may love. So we really want to help them to do their job for as many years as they continue to want to do it.

Luber: That’s awesome! And I love something that you said to me the other day. This really was a cool quote. You said “my job is like a field trip every single day”.

Meagan: Every day! If you want to see how things are built…You know, I didn’t grow up in an area where I got to see much of that. I grew up in Hawaii. We don’t make a lot of things there. So this job was really my first introduction to being on factory floors and seeing how heavy machinery is built: backhoes, seeing guys clean tanks on fishing vessels…It was a real wake-up call and I have a new appreciation for all of our modern conveniences because there are people in our cities building these things every day and you get to see all of them. It’s like watching that show How It Works, but it’s your job and you’re being paid to stand there and watch it and improve the process as well. It’s cool to be a part of!

Luber: Yeah! So you get to see the behind-the-scenes of everything!

Meagan: Yup.

[MOST CHALLENGING PART OF INDUSTRIAL HYGIENIST JOBS starts at 24:43]
Luber: That’s great! What about the tough part? What’s the really tough part about the job?

Meagan: The tough parts are standing outside for 8 hours in snow maybe. We don’t have that too often here in Seattle but you are in inclement weather often. It’s cold or it’s too hot or there’s no shade. You really are out in the elements and there are times when you’re just really so cold that not even an entire package of hand warmers stuffed into your gloves and every jacket pocket you have is gonna help you! So that’s a tough part. The other one is there are some days where you just have to go into dirty environments. Factories are not always clean. So you have to expect that you’re going to be getting dirty that day and wearing junky clothes and expecting – it’s a rare day that I get to wear a skirt and high heels, let me put it that way. Ha!

Luber: Ha! OK. So you’re not gonna be going straight from work to meet friends out for a drink or something?

Meagan: Ha! It had better be a hole in the wall if we are. And sometimes that does happen if my girlfriends are very kind and we go there.

Luber: That’s great. What about this – let’s weed some people out. Some people that are watching are saying “wow, this sounds really cool” but maybe it’s really not for them. There’s certain people where if you can’t handle this, this path’s not for you. What would that be here?

Meagan: If you need to know where you’re gonna be and what you’re gonna be doing on every given day for that week, this job is not for you. The hours are pretty inflexible and sometimes you have to be on the site at 7am and it’s a 3-hour drive away. So you’re waking up at 3 in the morning to get out there on time. So if you’re one of those people who really really likes to sleep in, maybe this isn’t the job for you. But it could be really rewarding anyway if you could handle those hours. You have to be really flexible, you have to be able to just go at a moment’s notice. If the phone rang and somebody needs you out there you go. We don’t do emergency response per se, but we do try our best to respond as quickly as possible to our clients. So you will be running around, you have to do a lot of driving, a lot of travel – not often overnight but sometimes yes for about a week we’ll be gone, so if you need to be home every night, maybe this isn’t right for you. Or if you need to have stability in your schedule, this probably isn’t the job for you.

Luber: And when you go and travel to a site, you were telling me you do a lot of school visits, right? How does a school need your services?

Meagan: There’s been a lot of publicity lately about schools and their drinking water. And so often a parent might raise a concern and want to know if the quality of their child’s drinking water at their school meets code. So we’ll go and sample the water there for them. Another issue that has come up in schools is people think that maybe the building is making them sick. Sometimes it’s true but it’s pretty rare. Schools are older buildings, though. In the United States we really haven’t invested that much in our educational infrastructure in a long time, so a lot of the schools are 1940s, 50s, 60s era buildings. They’re not built to modern standards and so a leaky roof can cause a mold problem and can trigger allergies or asthma in some sensitive populations. So we try to go out there and investigate those issues and often times that’ll involve later speaking with principals or staff and doing risk communication to try to help them keep the problem in perspective and not let hysteria get the best of parents who are really trying to protect their children every minute of every day.

[BREAKING IN TO INDUSTRIAL HYGIENIST CAREERS starts at 28:43]
Luber: Right! Of course. Wow. This is such a cool career. I really like this. If I wasn’t such a science idiot, it’s something I’d have to consider. How does someone break in? Let’s get to that now. Because people are watching who want this. They’re going for it. How do you get jobs in this path? Do you take internships? Is that the best way to break in?

Meagan: I think internships can help a lot. Internships are more often through public agencies. Every state or at least federal OSHA [Occupational Safety & Health Administration] has industrial hygienists and you can get internships there for the summer. You could also get an internship at a consulting firm or a large manufacturing company has in-house industrial hygienists and they offer internships. I would say that everyone who’s trying to get into industrial hygiene should be prepared to start off as a field technician, which means you’re in the field all the time. You’re the one getting dirty, but the cool stuff is you are the one who is also seeing all of the activity every day in the field and going on that field trip that you mentioned. And operating the equipment, which for me is the fun part – the gadgets are pretty awesome. But yeah, be prepared to be the field technician for several years and then work your way up.

Luber: And do you learn how to use those gadgets and put on the funky suits when you’re on the job?

Meagan: Absolutely. That is NOT something you do as part of the degree program. That was on the job. But you also have to be a self-starter. If you get a new piece of equipment for a job that you’ve never used before, you have to be able to read the manual and know the limitations of the instrument and know what it will and won’t tell you and be able to operate that without somebody looking over your shoulder. So you do have a lot of responsibility for the technical work.

Luber: So in your first several years when you are new and you’re that field person, are you just thrown out there and it’s just “hey – good luck!” or are you trained? How does that work when someone’s new to really learn this stuff once they’re on the job? How does that work?

Meagan: I think it’s REALLY important to have a good mentor at your job as an industrial hygienist. If you’re a field technician, they wouldn’t send you out by yourself to start with. You would be shadowing someone for quite a long time before they felt like not only could you assess the site yourself but can you keep yourself safe while you’re there because you are responsible for your own health and safety as well. And can you recognize the hazards and keep yourself out of harm’s way. So we want to make sure that new field technicians aren’t gonna walk behind a giant backhoe and get run over!

Luber: That would be bad!

Megan: Yeah!

Luber: When I introduced you, I said you were a “certified” industrial hygienist. Tell me what is certification? Does everyone need it and when do you do that?

Meagan: You can be an industrial hygienist without being a board certified industrial hygienist, which is what being a “certified” industrial hygienist means. It’s that you’re certified by the Board: it’s the American Board of Industrial Hygiene. And you have a certain number of years of experience and you have passed an examination much like the law school board exam but not as many hours. It’s an 8 hour exam. But like I said, there are many people who practice industrial hygiene who don’t have the certification and I did for the 6 years that I’ve been in the industrial hygiene world. It’s doesn’t make or break you, but if you want to, for example, give expert witness testimony, the certification is an added sign of credibility for you.

Luber: So if you guys want to look into that to get certified, if you want to learn about that, you go to the American Board of Industrial Hygiene website, which is ABIH.org. I’ll put that url on the screen and you guys could go check that out and learn more about it. I was gonna ask you where else you can take this career – obviously you just said expert witness testimony – you could be helping lawyers in trials to learn about what’s going on in a specific workplace. Where else? You said that this is the kind of situation, the kind of path, where you’ve gotta really be flexible because you don’t know where you’re gonna be every day, you don’t know what the hours are gonna be, you don’t know each day-to-day situation. So if someone wants to start a family, have children, it’s a little harder at that point to be racing around at crazy hours, going to random sites that who knows what’s going on there. Does someone have to kind of move out of the career path or is there a new place they could take it?

Meagan: I would say you don’t have to move out of the career if you suddenly need more stability in your life. A couple of certified industrial hygienists I know have broken off from their consulting firm and have gone independent. They’re freelance consultants now. So they make their own hours and they choose their clients and they work only when they want to work. So that’s an option. Another option is if you go to a large company and become an in-house industrial hygienist, your schedule is probably more predictable. For example, they would probably ask you to be on-site during their normal business hours, which may be 9-5 or it may be 7-3. So a little bit more predictability if you’re not a consultant.

[KEYS TO SUCCESS FOR INDUSTRIAL HYGIENIST CAREERS starts at 33:43]
Luber: OK. Got it. Alright so now what we want to do, we want to close everything out with some keys to success for everybody. So I want you to take your years of experience and share with everyone the keys to success so that if they’re trying to go out and break in to this path, they become industrial hygienists, let them learn from your 6 years of experience so they could get a head start and kick some butt out there.

Meagan: Well what I would say for keys to success are you have to be an analytical thinker, you have to have great observation skills, you have to have a solid scientific background but you also on the flipside have to be a social person, able to read people, understand their cues and use it to infer what might be going on in a space that they’re not actually saying to you out loud. And also I would say building a client base is pretty huge for us in consulting. So people have to like you and have to think that what you’re doing is actually helpful to them and is catering to their goals. So their company goals are to make money and to grow and to have a presence, a marketing presence, and often safety doesn’t fit in with that and safety can be bad press they feel like, so they really want to know that you understand their goals and then they’d be willing to help you. So to be politically aware of the situation is key. I would also say really work hard to get an internship somewhere and network. Industrial hygiene is a small world. Not a lot of people know that it even exists! So everyone knows everyone in the field. That’s what I’ve been learning. I’m still a relative newbie in the field. Most people have been doing this for years plus. There’s going to be a need for industrial hygienists in the future as the elders in the field retire. There’s going to be a gap there so I really encourage everyone to look into industrial hygiene and try it out.

Luber: That’s awesome. I think it’s so cool. I would try it out if I could do science!

Meagan: Ha! I could put you in the yellow suit, Marc!

Luber: What’s that?

Meagan: I could put you in the yellow suit.

Luber: Yeah I do want to try on one of those suits just to be like in that Beastie Boys video.

Meagan: Ha! They make good Halloween costumes.

Luber: That’s awesome! I love it. Please leave feedback, questions and comments at Careers Out There dot com in the comments section below the video. Meagan, thanks so much for taking your time today.

Meagan: My pleasure! Thanks for helping me get the word about industrial hygiene out there.

Luber: Absolutely! So you guys – you can find Careers Out There videos at iTunes, YouTube, and BlipTV and of course at Careers Out There dot com. Thanks again for watching ya’ll. Enjoy it. I’m Marc Luber. Look forward to seeing you again soon. Take care.

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