Originally known as BlahBlahBlog, and later renamed BigPinkCookie, my first blog post was possibly my most groundbreaking:

These blogs seem to be all the rage, and hopefully it will be easier then editing the old fashioned way… we’ll see how it works out! =)

A thought for today:
“What we need in the world is manners…. I think that if, instead of preaching brotherly love, we preached good manners, we might get a little further. It sounds less righteous and more practical.” – Eleanor Roosevelt

This was actually my second attempt at blogging, after I was inspired initially by the Digital Divas to blog by hand coding an HTML page and replacing it each time I added to it.

Thankfully Blogger came along, and then Greymatter, and MovableType, and eventually WordPress.

As I woke up this morning, I started to think of all of the things that blogging has impacted in my life.

• Hundreds of people that I have met, initially online but eventually in person, from coast to coast and around the world – I wish I could list you all but this post would take me days to write if I did
• Writing & the support of my online community got me through so many trying times
• SXSW Interactive in the early days taught me more than I ever expected to learn
• I launched a blog hosting company
• I learned to believe in my own photography skills and showed my work online
• Through photography & blogging, I met Ann, who had met this guy named Mike that was from Houston, but living in London at the time – and she told me I really needed to meet him when he returned
• Mike eventually set up a Coffee Hour in Houston, and I went because of Ann’s recommendation
• My photography blog was a finalist in the SXSW Interactive Awards – one of FIVE
• That was the same year that Matt Mullenweg said his blogging software was ready to launch, but still needed a name – and I suggested WordPress a few days later
• WordPress now powers over 30% of the internet in 2020
• Mike & I got married (16 years ago this month!)
• Sold the blog hosting company; the profits funded starting my photography business
• Blogging for my photography business, and sharing about it on Twitter lead me to be fully booked (25+ weddings) my first year, grossing 6 figures in revenue, and the foundation of the lessons I learned are now the InstaLocal Course
• Photographed hundreds of weddings, and thousands of women for boudoir sessions and brand photography sessions
• Including photographing Ann & Karl’s wedding were married in Bristol, England – with Mike by my side
• Numerous other destination weddings, and travel for portrait sessions and speaking at conferences
• Wrote a best-selling book on blogging for business, and featured in a number of other books
• Hosting three podcasts: one on knitting back in 2005, plus two on business, including the current Reframe Success
• My photography business has evolved in to education and coaching for other service business owners

Looking back through the lens of nostalgia, it is amazing to think of how many friends I have today that I would have never known without blogging.

I’m forever grateful for blogging because without it, I might not have met my husband, Mike. We always tell people we met because of the internet, but we didn’t meet online. We met through blogging.

Something that doesn’t seem so unusual now, but we were early adopters. It was still pretty rare then.

People I’ve visited, shared a meal with, spent a trip with. I’ve watched their families grow and change. We’ve supported one another in times of joy, and times of sorrow.

A community – completely unlike one we could have ever imagined 20 years ago.

Twenty years ago, being a professional photographer was a dream, but one I never thought would become a reality. Not me, I couldn’t actually do that.

Blogging made me believe that I could do anything.

My first photography clients, and my biggest fans, came from my blogging circle. I’ve traveled to England, Bermuda, and around the USA to photograph people that first came in to my life through blogging.

When I was in high school, I wanted to be a photographer, a teacher, or work with computers. In the late 80s, there was no way to combine those things. In 2020? That is EXACTLY what I do today.

Social media came along; Twitter, then Facebook, and Instagram, and it all changed how we blogged. The posts became faster, the reactions and interactions more spontaneous, and blogging for many has evolved or faded away.

Blogs have evolved, which isn’t surprising for a medium that didn’t even exist 20 years ago.

Blogging is what made my life as I know it possible.

The post Twenty Years of Blogging appeared first on Personal Brand Photography for Creatives in Houston, Texas - Christine Tremoulet.

Kimberley’s website can be found at http://RedCurlCreative.com and you can pick up your copy of the Email Strategy PDF in the online store.

Are you a Supporter? Members of Photographer’s Inner Circle get access to a BONUS training video, where Kimberley goes deeper in to the 5 Email Follow Up System – available in the Members-Only Facebook Group. Want to join us? Visit http://PhotographersInnerCircle.com

The full transcript of this episode can be found at http://ReframeSuccess.com

This episode brought to you by the InstaLocal Prompt Planner – always know what you should post on social media, and take the stress out of planning. http://InstaPrompts.com

The full transcript of this episode is below.

The Show Transcript

Christine (Intro): [00:00:00] You’re listening to Reframe Success, and I’m your host, Christine Tremoulet. I believe that you can have a successful photography business and you get to define what success looks like for you. My guests and I will help you with actual advice and information on how to get there. I want you to know that I believe in you, and that YOU are enough. Now let’s get on with the show.

This episode is sponsored by the InstaLocal Prompt Planner, 365 days of ideas that I created for you so that you’re never at a loss for what to post on social media to connect with ideal clients in your local market. Learn more InstaPrompts.com.

Christine Tremoulet: [00:00:49] Hello everyone, and welcome back to another show. Joining me today is my friend, Kimberley Anderson, and I’m so excited to have you here today, Kim.

Kimberley Anderson: [00:01:00] Yay. I’m excited too.

Christine Tremoulet: [00:01:02] For those of you that don’t know her yet, Kimberley is now a copywriter and she can be found at RedCurlCreative.com. But let’s talk about your past, what were you doing prior to doing copywriting for people in the wedding industry?

Kimberley Anderson: [00:01:20] My, my sinister past, was that I was a wedding photographer for just, just a hair over 20 years in Milwaukee, Wisconsin. I ate my last piece of saucy chicken on a Saturday night in 2016, and I haven’t looked back.

Christine Tremoulet: [00:01:38] you had a really, really successful career, obviously. I mean, you did it for over 20 years. And, I feel like you also have an amazing second perspective on the wedding industry thanks to your husband because what is,

Kimberley Anderson: [00:01:53] Great.

I married a DJ, as cliche as that sounds. yeah. So I have like literally been involved in weddings since I was 16 years old. My father was a chef at a country club and I banquet waitress weddings. And I served chicken and beef tips and cut wedding cake. And, so I’ve pretty much just been in weddings since then.

And then, yeah. Then I was a photographer and then I married a DJ.

Christine Tremoulet: [00:02:24] looking back at that 20 year career, if you were talking to somebody that was pretty early in their career, or actually probably no matter where they are, what’s one piece of advice you would give them.

Kimberley Anderson: [00:02:38] I would say that, you need to make sure you have, I mean, this sounds redundant, but you have to have contracts and things in place because no matter how good you are, if people, and no matter how much you trust in the process and in your art, at some point in your career, you’re going to have a crazy client.
you know, it’s. It’s not, it’s, it’s sort of like a hard drive failure, kind of, not a matter of if, but a matter of when. you know, they may be super crazy, like a few that I have, or they might just be mildly annoying, but, they’re gonna, they’re gonna crop up and it’s not just because of things you did, but if you have good contracts and good practices in place, it will make it much easier to deal with.

Christine Tremoulet: [00:03:22] Right. I feel like, especially on the wedding side of things, but also portraits.

Kimberley Anderson: [00:03:27] Oh, for

Christine Tremoulet: [00:03:28] like a lot of people, there’s a lot of emotion wrapped up. In being photographed. And so sometimes that comes back to us because are you, can you share the one, what I, we’ve, we’ve swapped some stories over the

Kimberley Anderson: [00:03:47] yeah.

Christine Tremoulet: [00:03:49] you share the one request I still think is the craziest

Kimberley Anderson: [00:03:53] Would that be the golden gate bridge one? Is that the one.

Christine Tremoulet: [00:03:56] Oh, I don’t know. I don’t know that I know that golden gate

Kimberley Anderson: [00:04:00] Oh, I have so many. See, you should come join my mailing list because I share all of this stuff. So the Golden Gate Bridge one was that I had a bride that came to me and she had a binder full of photos. Right. And she had met with a company right before me who was one of those like kind of, Oh, I think it was like George Street or one, you know, one of those where , they have multiple shooters and it’s kind of a wedding mill.

And she had a photo of a bride and groom in front of the Golden Gate Bridge. And they told her that absolutely, they’d be able to do that photo for her. That was not a problem. And she showed it. She showed it to me

Christine Tremoulet: [00:04:38] In Milwaukee, Wisconsin.

Kimberley Anderson: [00:04:40] in Milwaukee,

Christine Tremoulet: [00:04:40] be clear. She was not going to San Francisco.

Kimberley Anderson: [00:04:43] No, no, no. We’re in Milwaukee. And she showed it to me and I looked at it and I said, are we going to California? And she said, well, no.

That’s the Hoan Bridge. And we have a bridge here in Milwaukee. Believe me, it looks nothing like that. and it’s not even the same color. I mean, it’s like not even close. And I said, no, that’s the Golden Gate Bridge in San Francisco. And she was so embarrassed, and I was like, that’s okay.

Easy to make that mistake, but she was so embarrassed, like the whole thing just went downhill from then, and she didn’t hire me because I think she was so mortified. So I thought that’s the one I had shared with you,

Christine Tremoulet: [00:05:27] No, but I love that because I’ve gotten similar, you know, I’ve gotten people, they’re having a. Downtown Houston ballroom wedding, but can’t like make it look like we’re on the beach and

Kimberley Anderson: [00:05:36] right? Right. Yeah.

Christine Tremoulet: [00:05:39] You know, I can’t, I can’t make sure you get a glorious sunset at your wedding. I don’t have control over the weather.

Kimberley Anderson: [00:05:47] Yeah. Well, we get that a lot here too, because they want sunset photos over like Michigan, and we face these Lake Michigan East. So I’m like, well…

Christine Tremoulet: [00:05:57] just, I just hit a map pop up in my head and I’m like. Lake Michigan is on the East side of the

Kimberley Anderson: [00:06:04] city. It’s on the East side right.

Christine Tremoulet: [00:06:07] so you can have gorgeous sunrise photos, but not sunset.

Kimberley Anderson: [00:06:12] not sunset unless you want to travel to Michigan real quick. So, yeah. I mean, it’s just, again, you just, especially when it comes to weddings, people are emotional and, often not thinking straight. it’s kind of like, I hate to use a political, equivalent, but you know, it’s kind of like right now what’s going on, like two sides that both see something and so completely different ways that.

One’s memory of it is so completely different from the other, and they’ll never agree because you know, and that’s, that’s what I’m talking about is at some point in your career that will happen, there will be a bride that will tell you that she’s positive, that you took that photo of her and her bestie outside on the terrace and it wasn’t you like.

It was somebody else, but her memory is, is that you took it. Yeah. And you know, how do you deal with those scenarios? and how do you not let them, like totally affect you and, ruin your day and, make you just feel like crap.

Christine Tremoulet: [00:07:08] Yeah. Exactly. Because that can be very frustrating when people come back and say, this is what I expected or this is what you promised and it isn’t what you promised. And that’s where I feel like copywriting, the copy that we put out there becomes so important. It becomes very important. Like what we say, is really clear to people.

Kimberley Anderson: [00:07:30] absolutely.

Christine Tremoulet: [00:07:32] And that we make sure that what we say is something we can deliver

Kimberley Anderson: [00:07:36] Right. And , that’s what I help with. As, you know, everyone wants to sound cool and they want to, they want to be the cool photographer, but not everyone is cool. Like some people are more reserved and that’s okay. Getting your voice across is really important because you don’t want to come off as this uber hip, cool person.

And then when you meet. You’re a little bit more reserved. That’s going to make the client very uneasy. So having your voice come through in your website and your emails and everything is just, it’s really important.

Christine Tremoulet: [00:08:10] I feel like this actually hurts a lot of people that they have copy on their website that they’ve seen. Other people have similar copy. They consider that person to be successful. So they try to use that formula on their own website. But then when I meet them in person, yeah. All the time.

I will own up to the fact that I’m sure I’ve done this. I know I’ve done it, right, but I’m not denying this is it’s a human trait. But then when somebody meets with you later on, what they experience is a psychological disconnect. They, they can’t necessarily articulate it, but they’re like, “Is this person that I just met in person? That same person that I was following online and being interested in?”

Kimberley Anderson: [00:08:56] Right. And, you know, and, and it’s not sustainable for most people because, you can come up with a pithy thing here or there or copy something or, but , it wears on you. I mean, we all know how hard it is to come up with content over and over and over. And if it’s not in your voice, you’re just not going to be able to do it for long.

Christine Tremoulet: [00:09:15] Right. It becomes really exhausting. , and like I said, people can’t, they can’t figure out why they don’t feel comfortable, but they just know that something’s off. On the other hand, I think it’s so important to infuse yourself into your copy.

Kimberley Anderson: [00:09:30] yeah, absolutely. Because, you know, like attracts like, the copywriters that I follow, I happen to write in a very similar tone to them and I know that, and I mean, not exactly, but, I like their stuff because I wish I could write more like that. I wish more of myself came through.

Then, then they do it. So it’s just natural that when, , someone is reading through your social media or they’re looking at your website or even in the tone that you use in the emails that you write to them, that it’s all really consistent and it’s all really relatable to them.

Christine Tremoulet: [00:10:04] I’ve often told a story about how I was trying to shop for a portrait photographer for our family in another city. It was going to be where my inlaws live, and I narrowed it down to three photographers and I reached out to all three. But I realized that because none of their websites gave me anything about their personality at all.

I was ultimately shopping based on the commodity and we, we hate that. We just hate it when people inquire and say, hi, are you available for this date? What’s your price?

Kimberley Anderson: [00:10:41] Right, right. But yet, there’s nothing about you on the website,

Christine Tremoulet: [00:10:46] Right? Nothing that makes you stand apart. I knit. So if one of these people had just said, , even a little nugget on there, you know, when I’m not doing photography, I like to crochet. I still would have had a sense of, Oh, this person is my person. This is who

Kimberley Anderson: [00:11:04] yes. And photographers, especially, they think that the photos are enough. that’s the thing, like, well, I put a bunch of pretty photos on it. They should be able to tell and it’s just not true. People can’t tell.

Christine Tremoulet: [00:11:19] Or they can tell. They can tell, just like my case, I like these three. They can tell that, but they can’t tell anything further. And then that’s when they fall into the trap of feeling like, okay, now I have to ask about the price because the price is going to be the deciding factor.

Kimberley Anderson: [00:11:37] because that’s the only thing they understand.

Christine Tremoulet: [00:11:39] Almost everybody has pretty photos on their website, so. I can’t, I can’t choose you just based on those pretty photos alone. I feel like we have to take it a layer deeper and talk about who we are or why we do what we do, what we love, who we are outside of work can come up in all those things.

Kimberley Anderson: [00:12:02] I tell people that all the time. You literally need to tell people who your clients are. My clients are people who [fill in the blank]”.

Because people like to identify with that. They like to say, “that’s me! I want that.” You know? It seems so silly, but it’s that one little phrase.

“The clients who hire me, this is what they want.”

Christine Tremoulet: [00:12:25] And you can’t say, the clients who hire me want somebody that owns a camera and will show up.

Kimberley Anderson: [00:12:32] I mean, that’s part of it. I’m assuming they want that too, but you know,

Christine Tremoulet: [00:12:41] Okay. You and I have been in this industry for a really long time, and that’s a lot of the websites that we see though. I see a lot of people that, that’s essentially all the, like, I know that they are much deeper than that, but that’s a lot of what they’re just saying.

I’ve got a camera, I show up and I take pictures and. That doesn’t differentiate you from the person that is a mile away from your business that also has a camera and

Kimberley Anderson: [00:13:08] shows up.

And it doesn’t matter what kind of camera you have either because they don’t care.

That’s another default is to talking about gear or technique or, you know, they just want to know, am I going to get pretty pictures? Are the kids going to behave? You know, that’s what they want to know,

Christine Tremoulet: [00:13:24] Right. Right. But then beyond that, if they’re trying to choose, they want, they want to know why they should.

Kimberley Anderson: [00:13:30] right.

Christine Tremoulet: [00:13:31] You know, what can they, I love how you said that. The needs something to identify with. They want to know that they are part of, the right people making that decision.

Kimberley Anderson: [00:13:42] I mean, we all want that, right? I mean, we’re looking at something online. We read the reviews. you know, at least I do. I read reviews all the time because I want to know , what did they like about it? What experience did they have? But we’re not doing that ourselves in our copy to our clients.

Christine Tremoulet: [00:13:57] Right Right now. A second interesting thing happened to me when I tried to book photographers. Um, and by the way, I was that client. I was the person who said, I need a photo session on December 26th or I also made it very, very clear in my email. I am a photographer. I’m not trying to shop you. I’m not just trying to shop you and get your price list.

I really am a legitimate client with money to spend. I, I need to hire somebody.

Out of the three people that I wrote only one person wrote me back and I wrote them back with some questions And they never responded

How to stop being Ghosted by Your Photography Clients

Kimberley Anderson: [00:14:41] You got ghosted! No say it isn’t so!

Christine Tremoulet: [00:14:45] I was ghosted.

Kimberley Anderson: [00:14:47] No. Photographers never ghost people.

Christine Tremoulet: [00:14:49] Well and that’s what I want to talk about is how do we not ghost our potential clients I I and you you nailed it. Like we all think, “Oh, I never! I respond to every inquiry!” Beyond just the initial response what what do you feel we should be doing?

Kimberley Anderson: [00:15:08] Following up.

Christine Tremoulet: [00:15:10] How many times should I follow up?

Kimberley Anderson: [00:15:12] At least five. At least.

I have learned that with photographers that getting them to five is usually about as far as I can go. And I think that’s okay. There are some sales companies and knowledge out there that says seven times. If that’s not comfortable for you, that’s fine, but here’s why five works.

The first two. You’re on a fact finding, you’re giving them information, you’re giving them something of value, telling them how it is to work with you. The third one is a, “Hey, don’t forget”, and the last two are closing the loop, basically saying, “I’m going to go away now. You know where to find me.”

That seems to work.

Christine Tremoulet: [00:15:56] Okay. I like that. Like it’s so simple. Just five steps, you know, the first one, here’s, I always made it like the first ones. Here’s, here’s the information you just asked for, and the second one, almost like a checkup saying did you get the information or is, is there more to that second.

Kimberley Anderson: [00:16:15] Well, I like, I go on the assumption that they did get the information and they need more. And so what I’ll do is I’ll pull something out or that first email and say, you know, I touched on this briefly, but let me talk a little bit more about my process.

Just go on the assumption that they’re still checking you out, and they just haven’t gotten back to you yet.
By the third email, you’re starting to put a little pressure, like sessions are booking up. I generally book this far out. You know, there’s kind of a whole kind of psychology to it. By the fourth email, you’re basically like, Hey, I’m still here. If you’re still interested, let’s go.

The fifth email is literally just hit reply and let me know if you would like to take me off my followup list. Now what you do with them from there is your choice. If you have a list, you could add them to the list for a monthly newsletter. just because they didn’t hire you for their wedding doesn’t mean they might not hire you for family photos or newborn photos or whatever else you do.

So I basically go with, the thing is. Until they tell me not to contact them, I’m still allowed to contact them.

Christine Tremoulet: [00:17:26] right I found, I’ve had people come back at. I don’t know, like the fourth email, fifth email where suddenly they go, thank you so much for checking in with me. I got really busy at work or this happened with my family or

Kimberley Anderson: [00:17:42] Right? I, you know, and I say all the time that between the third and the fourth email is where the gold is. And most people don’t go that far. and here’s the worry. If you’re not, maybe your
competitor is,you know.

You follow up once maybe maybe twice and the second one is just a, “Hey did you get my email?”

And meanwhile your competitor is sending them “Let me talk a little bit about more, here’s a session I did here that might interest you. Here’s a great location And…”

Christine Tremoulet: [00:18:12] There’s Tips on planning.

Kimberley Anderson: [00:18:13] Yeah They’re they’re giving them more information. If you’re a Susie homemaker and you’ve been contacting four photographers, and then your kid got sick and was in the hospital for a week, and all of a sudden it’s been three or four weeks, and you come back to your mailbox and there’s one photographer who’s still been checking up? Who are you going to book with? Are you going to go dig up those other three that you’ve fallen off their radar? Or are you going to go into your inbox and go reply, tell me more?

Christine Tremoulet: [00:18:42] I think the only way you’re going to end up going back to one of the ones that have ghosted you is if they had presented something that really made you feel a strong connection, or maybe if you were recommended by a friend.

Kimberley Anderson: [00:18:57] Yeah, absolutely. I mean I’m not saying that there’s no chance they’re going they’re

Christine Tremoulet: [00:19:01] Right But it but it’s slim

Kimberley Anderson: [00:19:03] it’s slim. Right? I mean you know you go shop for a car and the car dealership guy calls you back couple of weeks later to check and see if you still have a car, and maybe it just fell through, and you’re like, “You know what? I don’t have a car. How can you help me?

Christine Tremoulet: [00:19:19] Now using that example, a lot of people are really upset when they respond to an inquiry and they never hear back from the potential client.

We get upset when we are when we feel like we’re being ghosted. But that car example is always my example for that.

I went car shopping, I looked at cars at five dealerships, I bought a car at one dealership.

I don’t bother going back to the other four. I never have.

Now, if the sales guy at one of the dealerships I didn’t buy from, or the sales woman, the salesperson, follows up with me a few days later and checks in and says, “Hey are you still interested in this car? I know you said you wanted it in this color, and we just got one in , et cetera.”

Then I’ll respond to them. Then I’ll tell them, “Oh my goodness Thank you for, thank you for following up, I went a different direction.” But otherwise, don’t be surprised that your potential inquiries don’t come back to you.

How to Deal with Pricing

Kimberley Anderson: [00:20:22] No. They don’t, and people take it so personally. And I think, I think that’s kind of an artist thing . Especially when it seems like they were really good fit, and generally the time that you know as photographers that we get get ghosted is right about the time we send out our pricing. So right away we jump to the conclusion that it’s the pricing.

And you know, I would say probably 90, 90% of the time that is what it is.

But really? What are you going to do about that? You’re not going to bring your prices down for one person to make yourself feel better. So if someone does drop communication with you, and you continue with your followup, to me it just feels like well I did my job.

If they don’t feel comfortable, or their mama didn’t raise them right enough to reply and say thanks, but you’re out of our budget, we went with someone else? Oh well. You know they’re moving on. You know there’s other fish
in the sea.

The Big Hangup Hurting Photographer’s Businesses

Christine Tremoulet: [00:21:14] And I think you said it right there. We did our job. This is your job, is to do the follow up, to go through the loop, to check in on them. That’s your job. That’s not their job as the client.

Kimberley Anderson: [00:21:29] It is your job. Right. It is your job. It literally is your job because you can be the best photographer in the world, but a good portion of this job is marketing and sales.
You have to find a way to do it that doesn’t make you feel gross

Because that’s the big hangup. I don’t want to be pushy. I don’t want to be salesy.

Christine Tremoulet: [00:21:50] This is a huge passion point of mine. Like you are a business. Your number one objective as a business, you may not realize this, for those of you listening: your number one objective as a business is to sell. It is to make money. That’s the point of being in the business is to make money.

Kimberley Anderson: [00:22:12] The perk is that you get to do what you love. That’s the perk.

Christine Tremoulet: [00:22:15] Right! The perk is that what I’m selling is taking photographs, and getting to work with clients, and all of those things. But at the end of the day the IRS defines your business as a business because you’re selling and making a profit. That’s what makes you a business.

There’s greater conversations out there about well no, it’s all, you know success is about this, and you have to be doing it… No. Really. The IRS says you’re a business because you’re making money, and therefore you’re a business. And that’s selling.

So I’ll, I’ll step back down off that soapbox.

Kimberley Anderson: [00:22:56] No, I’m I’m up there with you. Otherwise it’s a hobby, right I mean

Christine Tremoulet: [00:23:01] Otherwise it’s a hobby. It’s an expensive hobby if you’re not making money.

Photography is expensive, I mean and we all know this, which brings me to another interesting point I feel like we should touch on because we all know that photography is expensive.

Should we be writing blog post about that though?

Kimberley Anderson: [00:23:24] No.

Now you’ve got me, you’ve got me on this thing. No.

Here, would you like the list of things nobody cares about? Because I’m going to give them to you.

Christine Tremoulet: [00:23:33] good

Kimberley Anderson: [00:23:34] nobody cares how long it takes you to edit a wedding or how much hard drive space you you have. Nobody cares about your gear and your upkeep of your gear and how much your gear costs and how often you have to replace your gear.

Every single thing that I see out there like that, I want to slap the photographers who posts those things.
When’s the last time you saw an accountant put up a post about how when I charge you $350 for your taxes it’s because I had to take four years of analytical whatever ? Or I had to do forensics accounting and I had to update my CM-PCE-a-thing and it costs me $450 every 18 months?

Nobody cares.

They don’t care.

What they do care about is what you do for them and how your processes work. They care about that.

Christine Tremoulet: [00:24:30] Yeah, I do think some, I mean some of your clients might care that you’re properly insured, et cetera. But that’s not like, that’s not a blog. Like they don’t really care about – they care about it but…

Kimberley Anderson: [00:24:42] Well, they want to know you’re insured, because it’s a once in a lifetime event.

Christine Tremoulet: [00:24:47] Or it’s a I mean a portrait session At least you can repeat it but yeah and in the case of a wedding it’s once in a lifetime

Kimberley Anderson: [00:24:54] Right , and also they care because they saw it on a checklist somewhere and someone told them should they should care. I don’t go into my mechanics and ask them if they have all their whatever because I don’t know what they are.

But, yeah. I assume they’re, you’re there, you’re paying taxes, so we’re good, right? I don’t say to them, what degrees do you have from Honda, so that I know you can work on my Honda.

So a little bit but not as much as you think.

Christine Tremoulet: [00:25:23] Just to be clear we’re not talking – and that’s why I brought up like the insurance thing – it’s one thing to say I’m insured and I keep my gear up to date, et cetera.

We’re specifically talking about those validation posts, I charge a lot of money because do you realize what my business costs to run?!? And they normally seem really angry

Kimberley Anderson: [00:25:47] They’re always yeah, angry and they’re combative almost.

Christine Tremoulet: [00:25:50] yeah Well and I think they’re written when we have a serious – confession time – I had a post similar to this. I basically had my prices and then I had a are you curious what goes into the price And you could click on a link and go to another page. That. That.

Right away, everybody was like, yes, that’s amazing! Can I copy this? Can I share it? Because people don’t understand.

I had a wedding planner reach out to me and they said, “Oh that’s bad. Bad idea. Take that down.” And I, because I was in it, where I felt like everybody was telling us we were too I didn’t to take it down.

But when I went back, what fortunately it was a point in time where I was pretty fully booked, and by the time I looked at it again? I know, man my inquiries dropped. And fortunately I caught it and pulled the page off my website before it really hurt me because I did have stuff book pretty far in advance. I was like “why have my inquiries gone down?”

And then I was like, “Ohhhhhh…”

Because while I felt that I was valid, and I did have one client who told her mom, in the meeting, her mom was like “Oh these prices!” And she right away, but she was into cameras. She was into photography. She was not a professional photographer, but she had cameras, so she was like, “Oh mom! She’s got like she’s got all the Canon L series lenses and stuff!” To her it was a big deal, so I guess I had one client that benefited but that’s it’s so not worth your inquiries going down and everything

Kimberley Anderson: [00:27:31] else.

No, I mean I just look at any other industry and see see where you see that. It just doesn’t happen. You don’t need to explain.

Christine Tremoulet: [00:27:42] Right? I’ve never seen a a steak house that says our steak is $62 Oh by the way it’s because we get it from this ranch and we do this and it’s aged and do you know what our rent costs for this restaurant That’d be the most ridiculous thing I would walk out of the restaurant and leave

Kimberley Anderson: [00:28:05] Right I mean they can imply it in their copy all over the place You know they can imply this ranch and Oh

Christine Tremoulet: [00:28:13] These cows are fed by … I love that I picked steak because Kimberley hates steak, but it’s like my favorite food. No.

They can imply it. I have seen restaurants do this really successfully where they just throw in a word that, if you’re in the know? Great.

A good example might be if I got a brand new camera body and I posted about it on social media. “Yay! I got this new camera body. I’m so excited. I love it.”

Cool. Then they have an idea of what gear I have, and if they want to do research, like what does that camera body cost? Oh my God, that was $4,000! Cool. Like that’s up to them though. I’m not saying I’m expensive because I bought a $4,000 camera.

Kimberley Anderson: [00:28:59] Right. Yeah. Agreed.

That’s my little soapbox thing.

I’ll get a photographers who will want me to write posts like that or blog posts like that for them, and I’m like, and I will, but I will make them spin it a little bit different.

Well let’s talk about if you want to talk about your editing process, because you think that’s important to clients. Let’s tell them how it benefits – I mean what does this do? The fact that you hand edit every single photo let’s talk about why you feel that’s important? What differences is it going to make for the piece of wall art you’re going to sell them? Let’s sell them on the fact that you are literally putting your heart into this art, instead of lecturing them about how long it takes you to edit a section.

So It’s not misguided it’s just, it just doesn’t work.

Christine Tremoulet: [00:29:47] a little wording tip here that I think might help some people.

I always use to tell people that I edited their images the ones that they saw when we did their proofing session or if I use online galleries and that’s the file that if they bought the DVD, or sorry USB. Oh my God! I just like flashed back in time to 2009!

I promise you I’m not giving anybody DVDs. I don’t even own a DVD drive, and they don’t either. Nobody’s got DVDs anymore.

But if I’m saying these are the images I put online for you to download, whether I’m using a gallery, or if I send them a USB , or however I’m delivering the files, which is not on DVD. That this is that level of editing.

The reason you should buy your wall art from me is on through and meticulously hand edit that image, I fixed stray hairs, I will do whatever it is that I did that was different.

So in the case of weddings, if you ordered an image for me and somebody had their eyes kind of closed, or a half blank, or weird expression? Those are the images that I would do some swap Photoshopping on. But I did not do extensive Photoshopping, unless you edited a print from me, whether it was 8×10, wall art, whatever.

That’s how I made it really clear to them, the difference between getting the files and getting that.
And I knew I had hit the mark when I had a parent say back to me, “Oh yeah, this is our archive, these are like our negatives, but the actual art is when we get the canvas wrap from you.”

And I did a little dance around the room.

Kimberley Anderson: [00:31:33] Yep, That’s perfect.

Christine Tremoulet: [00:31:34] I gave myself an out. I told everybody, “if I meticulously hand retouched every image? It would take six months before you saw your photos. So that’s why I only do it on what I print.”

And for clients who don’t understand the difference, who are just saying I just want the image? For at least, for my clients, that gave them enough of an understanding of the value of coming back to me for the print. That they didn’t just need a file that they were going to go take to some local lab that would do a mediocre job.

Kimberley Anderson: [00:32:07] Right. See that resonates with people so much more than how I edit my photos, a 700 word blog posts

Christine Tremoulet: [00:32:15] Yeah. They didn’t need to know how I edited, they just needed to know the difference and why.

Kimberley Anderson: [00:32:20] You made it about them. You were stating a benefit to them, and that resonates in everybody’s mind.

People Buy Benefits, They Don’t Buy Features

Christine Tremoulet: [00:32:27] Right. People buy benefits, they don’t buy features. They they want to know what the benefit is.

When somebody is buying the plane ticket to France, they’re not buying the seat on the plane. They’re buying the fact that the plane is going to get them to France.

They want to know where you’re going to get them in the end.

Kimberley Anderson: [00:32:48] Exactly. You know, when you’re selling a piece of wall art you’re not just selling a 16 by 24 canvas, you’re selling “a piece of your family’s history that you’ll see every single day.”

That’s the benefit to them. And in an industry like ours, we’re dealing with high emotions. We’re dealing with heartstrings. It’s okay to capitalize on that.

Christine Tremoulet: [00:33:12] Yeah. We’re not, we’re not using, like it’s not a gross thing. Like, “Oh you’re manipulating them.” No.

And in reality that’s why people came to you.

Should You Have Pricing On Your Photography Website?

We talked about this ghosting situation and I’ve what is something that you can do on your website, to help potential clients so that you don’t get ghosted?

Kimberley Anderson: [00:33:39] I think having a range of your pricing is important.

I know there’s a lot of pushback on this, like get them to contact you, but there’s a lot of people who will just bounce from your website if they don’t have just an idea of where you land. A simple line like “most clients invest blank.”

Because, If it’s wildly above what they can afford? If you’re twice what was the top of their budget as you’re starting? They’re not even going to get in touch.

Christine Tremoulet: [00:34:13] Oh yeah I feel like I still had people get in touch all the time because not everybody reads every page on your website.

Kimberley Anderson: [00:34:21] don’t always read Yeah And that’s another issue That’s a whole other issue a lot of that comes down to formatting. That’s a big thing on websites.

Writing in big blocks of text. People don’t read like that anymore

You’ll notice now even when I write blogs two to three sentences per paragraph no more than that.

Lots of headers, lots of bolds. H1, H2s, lots of bullet points, because people skim and when their eye falls across something that’s interesting or that is meaningful to them? Literally they back up and reread it again; they read what was above it and then read what was below it to put it into context.

That’s another really great way to get people to pay a little bit more of attention so that when they do contact you they have a little better frame of reference But yeah it is an issue and then you have the people who aren’t reading at all and are literally just copy pasting to 40 or 50 photographers and that’s just gonna happen.

Christine Tremoulet: [00:35:19] It does. I mean that’s just how they shop. And that’s okay.

I used to have a pricing page but then I also added the price to my contact page because if they didn’t bother going to the pricing page or sometimes it’s funny even though it was in the site navigation at the time that it just seemed like people just didn’t see it Well also we sometimes use words that confuse them I don’t I don’t think every person understands when you say investment.

Kimberley Anderson: [00:35:49] yeah And that jargon is a big thing

Yeah And an investment could mean different things I have clients who thought that image was something different than a photo They think it’s fancier you know use normal people words You don’t need to call it a JPEG call it a digital file You know Most people understand now especially what a JPEG is versus raw or something like that You don’t need to get that technical.

Christine Tremoulet: [00:36:17] Or because if they don’t understand it and you say I might give you JPEGs they’re going to write back and say can I put those on Facebook?

Kimberley Anderson: [00:36:26] Yeah Right I mean 100% the entire intent Of your website and the copy on your website is to get them in front of your face That’s what you want because if you’re a photographer you know as well as I do that you probably have a pretty good closing rate once you get them face to face by face to face I mean you know video phone call or in person if you meet in person

They’re so overwhelmed with information, and how many of us have had a client where you were meeting with them and it was clear that either they didn’t remember your website at all, or they were talking about another photographer, or they got confused everything that’s on your site is to get them off your site which sounds crazy but

Christine Tremoulet: [00:37:09] Right I feel like everything that’s on social media is to get them to your site

Kimberley Anderson: [00:37:15] yup.

Christine Tremoulet: [00:37:17] Because, I will still argue in our current day and age, even if somebody is inquiring through Instagram or Facebook? They probably still went over and looked at your site a little bit. Most of the time.

I think that’s starting to shift I will acknowledged that that is starting to shift some, but I feel like they’re still going to go over to your site for a little bit, and then come back to Instagram and inquire. So your website still matters. Okay Yeah.

They’ll look at it, and it just gives you a longer runway for them to look through information on.

Kimberley Anderson: [00:37:55] Well and you know, there’s no SEO benefits to Instagram or Facebook, as we well know so…
And we don’t own them do we ?

Christine Tremoulet: [00:38:04] Nope I mean all the time there are reports of people their Instagram accounts with their Facebook business pages being shut down and it’s sad and frustrating and everything else.

But it can happen and it can happen They don’t have to give you a reason they can just shut it

Kimberley Anderson: [00:38:27] Yup yup Then that whole thing you’ve built poof

Christine Tremoulet: [00:38:36] yeah Yeah I know I know you and I both agree on this If you write some really amazing content for Instagram or Facebook copy it paste it put it on your website Now you’ve got it in your library It’s in your archive It’s your encyclopedia of you And information So there in that way it’s serving you.

Kimberley Anderson: [00:39:00] Yup It should be It should be on your blog It should be somewhere

Christine Tremoulet: [00:39:05] yeah somewhere

Kimberley Anderson: [00:39:06] where Google can crawl it

Christine Tremoulet: [00:39:08] Yeah any other closing

Kimberley Anderson: [00:39:13] this has been great we’ve we’ve hit on all the things we don’t like and like so I do have a ebook on how to write a killer email followup sequence And I said that they should be five emails.

It’s a downloadable PDF and you can download it and it will walk you through paragraph by paragraph ideas to build out email sequences.

When I first started writing this book, I did an informal poll on my Facebook page and my email list to find out how many times people followed up. And I was like, you know, be honest. Like tell me the truth.

And 80% of the people who answered it said they only follow up one time after the initial inquiry.

Christine Tremoulet: [00:39:53] So they send one response and then they send one follow up.

Kimberley Anderson: [00:39:58] Followup. Yeah. And that’s it.
If they don’t hear back they don’t pursue it. And most of the reason why was, “I don’t know what to say.” Which I totally get that.

Like you send out the information, and then you check, and then you do a check back in. Is there any questions I can answer for you? Blah blah blah. And then they don’t answer you. So, what do you say to that, right?

So what this series does is it gives you things to say to them. So that if they’re still listening, they’ll get back in contact with you

And you can write these up. You can load them into your CRM, if you have one, to go out automatically. I even give you how many days I generally suggest to wait in between each one. Or you can send them up manually if you prefer, and kind of personalize them.

Christine Tremoulet: [00:40:44] Just for anybody listening, A CRM is is the client relationship management system but it’s that there’s so many out there I don’t want to accidentally exclude somebody but it’s something like do you use Tave, or Pixifi, or 17 Hats, or Honeybook…

Yeah whatever, HoneyBook, Sprout Studios – there are so many of them but if you have one of those? A lot of times they’re going to have a feature where you can just put these emails in and schedule them out. Or maybe, depending on what you use, maybe they’re a template. And if you don’t have one of those

Kimberley Anderson: [00:41:20] Yeah you can you can schedule things out in g-mail too and that’s free it just gives you a point of reference It gives you somewhere to start on that what to say and so that you can you know build out these emails do your followup And again I think a lot of people have written back to me and said you’re right it was between the third and the fourth one And I never would have sent that third email.

Christine Tremoulet: [00:41:42] We don’t want to feel like we’re the person chasing the other person. It reminds me of that online dating where you messaged someone, and you didn’t hear back from them. And you messaged them a second time, and you don’t hear back from them and you’re like well, I don’t want to be the creeper who just keeps messaging them.

But the difference is this isn’t dating. This is your business. I feel like I need to just hand everyone a permission slip the money is in the followup and I’m giving you permission to follow up And I like having this number this like it’s five you’re not going to follow up You know you’re going to give them an out

Kimberley Anderson: [00:42:20] Yeah. Oh, and that’s that’s a good point I should bring up. In every single email I give people the option to say stop contacting me. And I don’t just mean – I mean some with the CRMs they’ll actually have an unsubscribe. But literally in the bottom I’ll say, “Hey if you found someone and you don’t want me to follow up, just hit reply and let me know and I’ll take you off my list.”

Really casual every single time every single time.

Also putting a call to action in . “If any of this is confusing just hit reply and let me know what you’re thinking.”

That’s really important for open rates because if someone does hit reply and asks you something? Gmail and all the other email carriers see that as a positive interaction. That means that this is a healthy exchange. You’re not just spamming them.

And there will be people who will just reply and say take me off, and that’s fine And then that’s all you have to do. You don’t even have to reply to them or anything.

The bulk of people will just not respond. There’s not too many people that I have ever had who have unsubscribed from an email sequence as far as a client goes. If you have a mailing list that’s that’s a totally different thing.
Usually clients will just say nothing.

Christine Tremoulet: [00:43:27] I feel like that’s the moral of our story. You’re going to get ghosted. But don’t be the one doing the ghosting.

Kimberley Anderson: [00:43:36] Yeah. It you know and we all do it.

You wait too long and then you feel weird, and “Oh geez, you know, and now I’m going to be that person.”

And you go between the am I that person who doesn’t respond, or am I that person who finally responds after couple of weeks and now I’m that loser person who never got back to you.

Just realize that it is just part of the culture now. Not responding is the new normal.

I just take it as a sign that that person just was not meant to be. And I have had people come back, a year or so later, and be like I’m really sorry I dropped off. Yeah I’d like to talk to you again about that. Can we re revisit that.

And because I haven’t had a weird exchange with them – that happens. I saw someone the other day on a Facebook group who literally and you were on the thread too, where the girl got ghosted and she was very upset about it. And one of the photographers said, “well I just reply and say did you ghost me?”

NO. I mean, maybe they meant it to be funny, and light, and cute, but let’s not forget that that doesn’t translate an email, and embarrassing the person is never a good idea.

Christine Tremoulet: [00:44:47] Yeah. Right. Right. Embarrassing them making like you want you want your potential clients to feel amazing and like heros. Not embarrassed and like yeah I don’t know, it actually kind of goes back to that online dating thing. I mean that’s one thing If you put in online dating like did you ghost me?

Okay that’s probably fine because you don’t care. You don’t actually want to have any more interaction with that person. But I don’t know if that’s how it works in online dating anymore? I’ve been married now for 15 years, so y’all don’t come at me and tell me how it works. I don’t need to know.

Where you can find Kimberley online

So you have this amazing Guide PDF guide that they can get and we’re going to put a link for it in the show notes and everybody can find you at RedCurlCreative.com

Kimberley Anderson: [00:45:45] Yup. You can find me on Facebook, there I’m Red Curl Creative and I think on Instagram I’m Kim at red curl creative

Christine Tremoulet: [00:45:53] Hm I thought it was just red curl creative there too Now we’re both like wait a minute we follow you at look at me I’m totally pulling up Instagram right now Well you can’t look at me because it’s his voice only but I am pullng up Instagram right now red Oh it’s @RedCurlCreativeKim

Kimberley Anderson: [00:46:12] Oh there we go that’s me So you can find me

Christine Tremoulet: [00:46:14] on Instagram. And she will come up because she is the woman with the glorious red curly hair. So yeah, no question where that came from.

So thank you again for joining me. It has been so much fun I’m so glad that you’re joining me today!

Kimberley Anderson: [00:46:33] It has been fun

Christine Tremoulet: [00:46:34] As we mentioned at the start Kim does offer copywriting. If you are looking for somebody to help you with the copy on your website, if you’re looking for somebody to help you write blog posts.

Kimberley Anderson: [00:46:50] Yeah. Wedding and events. So I write for DJs, photographers, florists, wedding planners, boudoir photographers, children photographers, so pretty – so mostly weddings but also pretty much any genre of photographer.

Christine Tremoulet: [00:47:04] You’ve been in the photo industry for so many years, and I think that’s a great thing between going out and in choosing a copywriter I think at the right knowing that you have such an intimate knowledge of the photo industry and the wedding industry so that you’re able to help us out there I can give I can give her a glowing endorsement She has written copy for me in the past when I have have needed things written and has been such a fantastic experience. I think it’s a true talent to be able to articulate other people’s words in their voice.

Kimberley Anderson: [00:47:40] Thank you

Christine Tremoulet: [00:47:41] that you have. So thank you again for joining me today

Kimberley Anderson: [00:47:45] for having me All right Follow up Follow up

Christine (outro): [00:47:53] Thank you again so much for joining us. Show notes for this episode are available at ReframeSuccess.com. If you enjoyed this episode, please share it with your friends and be sure to leave a five star review.

Become a show supporter by joining Photographer’s Inner Circle, the online community focused on teaching professional photographers of all levels and experience how to be the most productive and profitable you can be. Get the details at PhotographersInnerCircle.com.

Thank you again. Until next time!

The post Stop Clients From Ghosting You – Improve Your Email Followup! With Kimberley Anderson appeared first on Personal Brand Photography for Creatives in Houston, Texas - Christine Tremoulet.

Have you ever thought to yourself that there is absolutely no way you could command high prices when you live in a small town? Do you feel like your market is just too small for you to be wildly successful? THINK AGAIN. Jason Marino, along with his wife & business partner Joanne, run the highly sought-after Imagine Photo in Kingman, Arizona. They are wildly successful, even being the most expensive in their market. Jason also shares his tips on how they do In-Person Sales minutes after a session, and the part that Fundy plays in the process. It’s amazing – be sure to get pen & paper so you can take notes!

The Imagine Photo photography website can be found at ImaginePhotoAZ.com
You can find Jason on Instagram at @imaginephotoaz and at @thejasonmarino

Would you like to support Reframe Success and be a member of the Photographer’s Inner Circle? Learn more and join us for additional training from Christine Tremoulet & select show guests, along with other special perks available only to show supporters!

For the full transcript of this episode, continue reading below.

Episode 3 with Jason Marino – the Transcript

Christine Tremoulet: [00:00:00] You’re listening to Reframe Success, and I’m your host, Christine Tremoulet I believe that you can have a successful photography business and you get to define what success looks like for you. My guests, and I will help you with actual advice and information on how to get there. I want you to know that I believe in you and that you are enough.

Now let’s get on with the show.

Show Sponsor – The LawTog

This episode of Reframe Success is sponsored by The LawTog. From contracts to copyright trademark to teams of employees running a photography business has many legal aspects to it. There is a resource just for photographers, learn more and get the help that you need at thelawtog.com

Introduction of Jason Marino

Christine Tremoulet: [00:00:51] Hello everyone. Joining me today is my friend Jason Marino. Jason and his wife Joanne have a studio in Kingman, Arizona. And Jason, I’m going to just say, pass this over to you. Thank you for

Jason Marino: [00:01:05] Oh, super. Happy to be here. Thank you for having me. It’s awesome.

Christine Tremoulet: [00:01:11] so can you tell us a little bit about your studio? What do you guys do there

Jason Marino: [00:01:16] Yeah. We have a little studio downtown on like main street of vintage building, and we photograph, you know, all types of different portraiture, and boudoir, and seniors, and families. And, we used to, we used to be a big wedding, a studio. That was all we did was weddings. And we kind of ignored our portrait side.

But in the last few years, we’ve actually cut way down on weddings and focus almost solely on portraiture. And so yeah.

Successful Photo Studio in a Small Market

Christine Tremoulet: [00:01:43] Now, how big of a city is Kingman?

Jason Marino: [00:01:45] Kingman has, I think, just hit 30,000. They were reporting in the local paper recently. So it’s a small town and he’s not a tiny town, but it’s not a big town by any measure. I think Phoenix, a couple hours away where I grew up, has like four and a half million or so.

Christine Tremoulet: [00:01:59] Right. So it’s not, it’s definitely not a major city, but you guys have a super successful studio business yet, like you’re pretty, pretty well …

Jason Marino: [00:02:08] Yeah, we do. We do. Okay. And, and, I don’t know. You know, I mean, obviously, I know, I know how we did it because it’s pretty formulaic, but, but yeah, we, we are definitely doing our thing here in this little town.

Christine Tremoulet: [00:02:19] I feel like so many people think I can’t be successful because I’m not in a big city. I can’t, like we get in to a lot of basically limiting beliefs about what we can’t do, because our area isn’t big enough. It’s kind of ironic because those of us in major cities like Houston we say, Oh, I can’t do this because my market’s so saturated.

And I hear people in smaller cities or even small towns say, Oh, I can’t do this because my town is too small. People won’t spend the money on this, you know, this sort of thing. But you found that, how have you found that to be?

Big City – Oversaturation of photographers – versus a Small Town

Jason Marino: [00:02:58] Right. And, and it’s, it’s like, it’s totally ironic. Yeah. As you said, people in a big city, they complain about. The oversaturation and too much competition. And then people in the smaller towns are like, Oh, there’s nobody here with any money. No wants to spend any money, et cetera, et cetera. And so what we’ve found is that, first of all, we’re glad we’re not a big city because.

You know, we, we can be the big fish in the small pond here. So when people say, Oh, I need to live in a big city to make any money, it’s not true. And it’s actually easier in a small town because yes, there is less quality competition. But that being said, if you have a great business model and a great client experience, it doesn’t matter what town you live in, it doesn’t matter how big or how small you can have a successful business.

Christine Tremoulet: [00:03:46] A rough average, like what’s the client average? If somebody come, you know, you guys do a lot of senior portraits.

Jason Marino: [00:03:53] What, what kind of money do people spend?

Christine Tremoulet: [00:03:56] Just on

Jason Marino: [00:03:56] yeah. Oh, you know, around $3,000 per client and yeah, and we photograph, gosh, I don’t know, 75 clients a year, so yeah. I don’t know what the math is on that, but.

Christine Tremoulet: [00:04:10] Whatever that math works

Jason Marino: [00:04:11] a couple hundred thousand dollars or so, you know, it’s, it’s a, you know, individually. Then we also have other, other businesses that, bring in, you know, another others, other six figure business as well.

So, yeah, I mean, it’s, that’s photography related business. But yeah, it’s a pretty, pretty interesting.

Christine Tremoulet: [00:04:28] It’s just that I always say when when people say, Oh, nobody in my town is going to spend $3,000 on portraits. Well, yes they are, but if nobody in your town is offering it, I feel like they’re importing it from another major city nearby. Like they’re, they’re going to go to Phoenix for that experience.

Jason Marino: [00:04:48] Vegas, which is really close to us. Yeah.

Christine Tremoulet: [00:04:51] Right, right. So they could go, they could go somewhere else, but you’re keeping them right

Jason Marino: [00:04:56] Right. And that, that’s a big thing with what we’ve done is that there are, wa there’s like one other studio in town and they’re skilled people and they’re friends of ours. And, you know, they do a fine job and they’re, they’re really nice people. They have a completely different style from us and approached than us.

But, you know, we don’t really worry about. What anybody else is doing. But we like to offer the high end experience, to, to people in this city because it’s lacking pretty much across the board and almost in every. Type of, you know, business. So from, from automotive sales to restaurants to, anything, there’s really no high end experiences in our city.

So coming to our studio is one of the few ways that people here can indulge in a, in a wonderful experience. It feels very high end and, well put together.

Christine Tremoulet: [00:05:46] Right? Cause I would imagine that if somebody lives there and they want like a high end dinner there, they’re probably hopping in the car and driving up to Vegas.

Jason Marino: [00:05:55] Yeah. People are going to Laughlin, which is kind of like a Laughlin, you know, it’s, it’s high end with air quotes. It’s, it’s not really high end, but it’s, it’s, better than Kingman. yeah.

You’re going to Vegas a lot because it’s a quick 90 minute drive to Vegas, and then you’ve got all the, you know, world-class dining, and service there.

But we basically bring that type of experience to photography in our city. And that I think is what helped us help set us apart. And people know that when they come to us, it’s very much about being taken care of and having a wonderful experience that’s going to be something they remember forever. And.

You know? Yeah. Our average is like $3000. We had a client who just spent $6,500 last week. And so, and then, you know, there’s clients who spend $2000 and we even have clients who spend $500 but generally, you know, anywhere from, we’ve had up to $13, $14,000 so, you know, we tell people $500 to $15,000 is what our clients tend to spend.

Are you in your client’s wallet?

Christine Tremoulet: [00:06:53] Well, I always think it’s so easy for us to go, mentally we go into our client’s wallets, like we decide what they’re going to spend, but we don’t know what somebody has in their bank account or, you know, what they have at their disposal. What they might choose to spend, could be so much above and beyond that.

Now, did you guys always . Focus on the client experience like this, or is this, did that change in your business over the years?

Jason Marino: [00:07:23] Well, quickly, I wanted to touch on what you were just saying about, putting ourselves in our client’s wallets. Because when we do that, we really are limiting our client and basically saying, Hey, we’re not going to let you. Do what makes you feel good, rock. Let you spend money because we don’t think that you should.

We’re projecting that on them. And so we, absolutely step out of the way and make it, make it easy for our clients to want to spend money because they enjoy doing that and they know they’re going to spend it one way or the other. Why should we stop them? And so, yeah, we don’t want to project on people.

And we often say that, Hey, you’re not your ideal clients, so don’t try to, you know, project on how you spend. Onto your client and say, look, I wouldn’t spend this. So why would the, why should they? So that’s something that’s really important for us is that, Hey, you’re not your ideal client and don’t project your spending habits on your clients.

So you were asking me about how are we focused on client experience? That’s something that, Back in 2016 we really made a huge transition on after our, after having a week long intense workshop with our mentor, Steve Sam burrito. And we, we, again, we spent like five days, you know, in a small group, just really working on how we were going to become, you know.

Become something better for our clients to give them something better. And we walked away from that completely transforming our business and making huge life changes for ourselves. And it’s been nothing but great.

Christine Tremoulet: [00:08:52] circling back to the money thing, I love that you guys made that transition. I, I, I figured it was not. Always the case and the money part ties into it. Prior to that, did you ever struggle with that? You know, putting yourself in your client’s wallet

Jason Marino: [00:09:13] Oh yeah, absolutely. I mean, when, you know, before, before we made a change on how we did things, we, you know, we were doing portrait sessions for a couple of hundred bucks and given everybody everything, or a couple hundred bucks and just throwing prints on a, in a sheet proof gallery or show, I’m 30 show them throwing the files on a ShootProof gallery so people could log in and look at them and we’d give them like a hundred dollars per credit with their session.

We would have people literally never order anything. They’d have $100 sitting there. And six months would go by and they wouldn’t order anything, or they would order $99 and 99 cents including tax and shipping. So they didn’t have to spend a penny with us. And. It wasn’t because they didn’t, they didn’t like their photos.

It’s just they didn’t value any of it because we weren’t valuing it and we weren’t helping them find the value in it. We were just a transaction. It was transactional and it, there was just nothing else to it, and that’s why we were, we were shocked if someone would spend 50 bucks on prints after the fact.

Christine Tremoulet: [00:10:11] . Did you then you switched and you do everything in person now? Yes. That you show them their proofs in person or did they get to see their proofs online.

Jason Marino: [00:10:22] we do everything in person and we not only do it in person, we do it immediately after their shoot, like 99 out of a hundred clients unless something crazy happens. They see their photos 10 minutes after we’re done shooting.

Christine Tremoulet: [00:10:35] Wow. So do you go through, let’s talk as minute about this process. Do you guys go through and cull them or…?

Jason Marino: [00:10:42] We don’t, because we actually cull in camera as we’re shooting. So we’ve made it a habit to have a finger resting on the lock or rate button, depending on what camera, you know, we’re using. But we are, we’re on Sony now, so as we’re shooting there’s a lock button, that’s really convenient on the left side of the camera, and we’re just hitting that button with a, with a thumb as we’re shooting.

And it’s, and it’s. And, and we know when we get a good shot. So we get the automatic review in the viewfinder as we’re shooting. And so we out, we just walk, we just cull on camera. and you know, if I go out, when we go photograph a senior, I take a 150 photographs, I’ve probably locked 50 of them. And then we immediately put them into, photo mechanic and it shows me a little checkbox on every picture I locked.

And I just take those checkbox photos with their JPEG sidecar and immediately import those JPEGs into Fundy and we’re off and running.

Christine Tremoulet: [00:11:32] Whoa.

Jason Marino: [00:11:36] No one does that, by the way. People do same day reveals, but they don’t do them instantaneously.

Christine Tremoulet: [00:11:41] as I say, I did them, but I needed like an hour because I was going to go pull them. I was gonna pull them into photo mechanic or light room and then go through and pick out the ones that I wanted. I shoot Canon and so I rate in camera.

Sometimes, but definitely not that much. So that’s a great tip. To just go ahead and get everything rated. If you know you nailed the shot, rate it right away.

Jason Marino: [00:12:10] Yeah. There’s no nothing to think about. It takes, it takes all of that out of the equation and after the shoot you walk away and you’re like, yep, everything’s ready. I don’t have to put any thought into it. And again, shoot with JPEG side cars so you don’t even have to import the files into light room.

Before putting them into your software of choice for us. Again, it’s Fundy. That’s how we show our clients their photos and do our sales and everything and it, and it just saves so much time. Imagine, you know, everybody knows how light room is slow, so imagine dropping 150 photos into light room. It has import them and render the previews.

Then you have to go through and. Select the ones you want to use, then you have to export them as JPEGs, and that can take 150 photos can literally take 10 minutes, 15 minutes to export out of Lightroom.

Christine Tremoulet: [00:12:54] I would have imported in probably 200, and then I would be pulling out, like you said, 50 or 60 I actually, I personally proof a little heavy. Mmm. Because I was out. My in person sales have all been for boudoir work, and so sometimes the smile that I love the most that a client has is not always their favorite smile.

So sometimes I give them two options and then when we sit down together, we narrowed them down really fast. I don’t ever export them out of light room, though, because I have been using Lightroom as what we view them through.

Jason Marino: [00:13:30] Oh baby, what is you doing?

Christine Tremoulet: [00:13:33] Okay.

Christine Tremoulet: [00:13:34] it

Jason Marino: [00:13:34] You got to change.

Christine Tremoulet: [00:13:35] I mean, it’s worked really fast for me, but I, so I’ll normally give them like a 45 minute break, and they’re where my studio used to be. There was a coffee shop just right down the street. So they go grab a cup of coffee and then come back and I’d be ready and we’d sit down and go through them.
But I, you know, I love this. As a another way of doing it because I know that showing them to them and funding is going to be a different experience. You could even show them probably their album layout options really fast, et cetera, and so I wasn’t doing that. I was giving them their album options after I did retouching.

Jason Marino: [00:14:13] Oh, got you. Okay. Yeah, we do. I mean, if you don’t, if you don’t mind, I’ll tell you how we do it. But essentially the first thing they see is, is a slideshow that’s set to music. And Fundy has that built in. So they have, you know, music’s right there. It’s all built in, it’s all synchronized. They watch a slide show, and the cool thing is that.

And I’m jumping ahead of myself, but we, Fundy, he has built in retouching like quick retouching through perfectly clear. We just hit one button. And it, and it does like light adjustments and you know, she’ll soft a little bit of skin softening what however much you want of that. And we synchronize it across all the JPEGs.
And then we, and so we’ve already got optimized photographs that look pretty decent and we don’t have to sit down and do anything with them. So they’re ready to go. So then we play the slide show. Clients see that? And then immediately we go in and help them pick their favorites one at a time using the, using all the built in Fundy options, like hearts.

They have a heart logo and you. Can heart the photos or unheart the photos for liking and unliking and we go through and help them do that. Then we have side by side comparison options just like you would in room, but with funding you can do, you know as many photos you want in the comparison and you just click each one and it lets you put four or five, six, whatever pictures in there and the client can go and get rid of this, get rid of that.

Let’s keep this one in it. It’s so cool because they really feel empowered. In making that selection and once they’re selected their photos, we can hit auto resign and we have an album design layout done in literally a blink of an eye. You click the button and boom, there’s an album with all the pages and layouts done, and then we just go through and fine tune each spread and help them make an adjustments to it.

And they’ve, they get to be part of the process, which they love.

Christine Tremoulet: [00:15:53] Right? That was my, that was my biggest holdup for a long, long time on in-person sales was I was convinced, especially because I was doing boudoir work, I was like, nobody wants to look at their photos with me. Yes, they did. They came to me to take the photos. They considered me the expert and which ones were the good photos.

So of course they want it, but they, they all wanted help selecting what was the best and what should they keep for the album. They, they truly love having that, that help and feeling empowered, like you said, that they are a part of the process. And so,

Jason Marino: [00:16:34] Yeah, and it’s fun. Like who? Who doesn’t love, you know? It’s like, I just had a photo shoot and now I’m sitting down designing it. It’s the same as walking into a Porsche dealership and ordering a car. They have a design center. You get to pick the colors. More of everything down to the stitching in the seats and the color of the emblems and the brake calipers and the wheels.

You know, every single the headliner. It’s all customizable. And there’s nothing more fun than being able to sit down and design your car. So for us, you’re sitting down and designing this, you know, multiple thousand dollars, you know, handmade leather, covered acrylic, you know, album that you. Are going to cherish for the rest of your life.

And so having them involved in the process just makes it takes the whole experience to another level.

Christine Tremoulet: [00:17:18] And the, when I was doing things where like you, I was, I was taking the photos and I was putting them in an online gallery and I was like, there you go. Go pick your images.
afterwards, once I made the switch, I realized that what that felt like to me afterwards was, hi, it was nice meeting you. So great working with you. Bye.

You’re just like, I was kicking them out the door.

Whereas sitting down with them and looking through the pictures and choosing their favorites and even sort of talking about this, I often, I did same day in person sales, but I, most of my clients came back a week later and it was like we got to relive the experience again and it was, it was a lot of fun for them.

I found though, for most of most people doing them the same day, that way they’re right there. They’re all hyped up there. You know? Cause when people are photographed, if you’re doing a great job photographing them, like they’re really hyped up after they’re done taking the pictures, they’re excited about them.

Jason Marino: [00:18:21] Oh, absolutely. And also one of the small benefits of it, or actually a large benefit, is that they don’t have to put aside a couple hours again on a different day to come back in. They just need to take the one afternoon and they’re, they’re handled. Like our midwife clients, they usually start at like 9:00 AM for makeup at 10 30 we’re doing a shoot and you know, we’re done by about noon.

And then they. Spend about an hour to 90 minutes designing their artwork and albums and they’re out the door. So nine o’clock to one 30 and they’re, they’re out of there and they’re done. They never have to come back. And it’s, it’s just a really easy, yeah. Or we deliver, or we, you know, any number of things.

If they have wall art, we actually install that. So we often will come to their house with everything wrapped up and, you know, knock on the doors, like we’re here and the, you know, fun with it that way.

Christine Tremoulet: [00:19:08] Not a lie. That was the part of the service that terrified me. I don’t, I’m not good at hanging things, so I don’t want to go hang Walmart and people’s houses.

Jason Marino: [00:19:18] Yeah, hire, hire a professional. Most of our, a lot of our friends hire professionals. We actually did for a while too, but it being Kingman, it’s hard to find a professional artwork hanger. So we had to take that on and research and figure out how best to handle that. And you know, it’s generally pretty simple.

But, we did have some stairwells where giant pieces got put in and we hired professionals that come in and handle that.

Christine Tremoulet: [00:19:42] That was the part I was like, okay, I can’t quite do that. Can’t, can’t do that part. But I love including that as a service because that’s that whole like start to finish experience. And I, I love doing, you know, doing online galleries works great for some people, et cetera. But for me, once I switched the experience up that IPS.

It just felt like a much more complete experience for my client and for me because a lot of times I become friends with my clients, or I’ve become, yeah, like their cheerleader while you’re photographing them, you, you know, you’re so encouraging of them while you’re taking their pictures. So wrap it all up.

I love that though, that you guys went in, but you go all in, you all have the same day. Just knock it all out and no reason,

Jason Marino: [00:20:46] Yeah.

Christine Tremoulet: [00:20:46] reason not to get it all done.

Jason Marino: [00:20:50] Right. And they can’t get this anywhere else. And, and not, you know, not only in Kingman, but just in general. They’re not going to find this just about, you know, hardly anywhere. And yeah, we, like I said, there’s some people that do same day and there’s some people that even do pretty quickly, but, generally not within just a few minutes.

And that’s a, you know, something that we’ve really, fine tuned and embraced and made it part of our
workflow.

Christine Tremoulet: [00:21:12] S your secret sauce strategy has been revealed,

Jason Marino: [00:21:16] It really is. Yeah, no, that’s, that’s the trick. That’s the thing that sets it off and people love it.

Christine Tremoulet: [00:21:21] okay. Oh. Oh, hello kitty.

Jason Marino: [00:21:23] Our cat just hanging out over here. He likes to flop down on the, on the keyboard of the Mac book and just shut it off, so I got to move him over.

Christine Tremoulet: [00:21:34] what? This is warm. Why are you making me move? I’m so cozy?

Jason Marino: [00:21:39] doing that.

Christine Tremoulet: [00:21:41] People can hear you and you and Joanne are speaking together. Sure.

Jason Marino: [00:21:47] Oh yeah, yeah. Sorry. It’s just me talking today. But I do have, I do have a partner and my, my brilliant wife who has, you know, been a photographer twice as long as me, and, who is the reason I even got into the business. And so she’s not a big fan of, of. Of doing, you know, doing interviews and speaking.

She likes to be quiet, just run the, run the show from behind the scenes. But yes, we are going to be, doing a lot of, public, speaking engagements and stuff coming up.

Christine Tremoulet: [00:22:12] speaking at imaging USA and at WPPI in 2020. And you’re talking imaging is lighting and sales seniors can’t live without. Do you want to give us a little like sneak

Jason Marino: [00:22:25] That’s fair. Yeah. Yeah. So we’re doing a 90 minute, theater. they have a, I guess I forgot about theater. There were work we’re going to speaking to and, and, you know, I’ll let you in on the secret. Joanna’s terrified cause I think it holds 1200 people. And so she’s a little bit scared now me, I love that stuff.

I, I don’t know if you know this, but I spent most of my life from the time I was in my late teens until just about five years ago as a rock musician. So I was on stage. Been on stage 500 600 times around, you know, around the country and you know, playing shows. So for me, I love it, but Joanne is like, Oh my God, I don’t want anything to do with it.

So this 1200 person theater is terrifying her, but she’s gonna, she’s gonna make it work. So what we’re going to do is we are going to be talking about, we’re going to be doing a demo. I’m showing, you know, a bunch of the shots that we do and recreating them live and showing people how we made them. And.

Fun tips and tricks that, that the seniors and their parents love. And then we’re going to be going through our process a bit, kinda like we were talking about a minute ago, and showing them how to create a great experience for those clients that’s going to be wonderful for their bottom line.

Christine Tremoulet: [00:23:36] you’re also speaking a second time at imaging the, yeah, you’re probably,
yeah. You’re probably not your ideal client.

Jason Marino: [00:23:47] Yup. That’s what that one’s called and it’s just like we talked about. It’s, it’s like I want people to understand that they don’t, they can stop projecting themselves onto the client base that they have and just get out of their own way and let their clients spend the money they want to spend.

Christine Tremoulet: [00:24:07] Any practical tips for people? Do you have any suggestions? I feel like, I feel like a lot of us feel, Oh, it would be wrong to charge that much. Or, it’s almost like a guilt thing about charging higher prices.

Christine Tremoulet: [00:24:24] Do you have any tips on how to overcome that?

Jason Marino: [00:24:29] You have to put yourself in the shoes. You have to take yourself out of your own personal business and put yourself in the shoes of another corporation or business. So you’ve got to think of yourself as Mercedes-Benz or you know, even just Walmart thinks of themselves. Walmart doesn’t apologize for making money off of people, and Ermez doesn’t apologize for selling $40,000 Birkin bags and Mercedes Benz doesn’t go, Hey, I’m really sorry that you have to buy this car today.

They say, Hey. We’ve got something for everybody. And Mercedes has cars that start at like 30 grand, you know, their class a cars or whatever they’re called, you know, they can, they can, you know, you can buy a car from there being just a regular working Joe, but they also have $200,000 cars. But the point is, they don’t apologize for it.

They don’t say, Hey. You know? So you’ve got to tell yourself, I don’t need to apologize for my prices. I just need to let clients enjoy the process and embrace the fact that if I do a great job, I’m being rewarded for that by them paying me for my services.

Christine Tremoulet: [00:25:31] at the, at the very start of this, that’s the other piece is making sure that you’re truly profitable.

Jason Marino: [00:25:40] Absolutely. You have to understand business. You can’t just, you know, hang a sign on your door and go, okay, I’m a business now. And that’s why we see so many people coming and going in our local, you know, buy, sell trade groups on Facebook and all that. You have these photographers popping up every other day and then they disappear.

Christine Tremoulet: [00:25:59] If I was making $15 an hour it in a corporate job and now I’m making $50 for a portrait shoot, it feels like I’m making great money.

But you’re, but when you sit down and do the profit margins and the money breakdown and what camera gear costs and everything else, you’re, you’re not Oh, you’re almost paying people for the privilege of taking their photos.

Jason Marino: [00:26:31] Absolutely. And when you want, the quicker you realize that, the quicker you’ll realize that you don’t need to apologize for the prices you have. And we have gotten to the point where we have employees and stuff now, and we actually have a corporation and we are employed by our own corporation. And so we have employment and payroll taxes we pay.

So we do things the right way. And of course, you know, we also make sure to let people know that you do not. throw that out there and complain. Like you always see people on Facebook going, well, my clients complain about my prices and they don’t realize that I have insurance and all these things. It’s like, well, no one explains that.

Mercedes doesn’t an explain that Walmart doesn’t sit down and break down their cost of doing business to their clients to justify the prices. No, neither should you.

Christine Tremoulet: [00:27:14] Last but not least, we mentioned the two talks at Imaging, but you’re also speaking at WPPI on the 25th of February on “Kick Your Client Experience in the Ass.”

Jason Marino: [00:27:28] I can’t believe they kept that name and we were just trying to be chinky. you know, on the phone we were being cheeky and they kept that name for the name of the class. And so that’s just gonna be a fun little masterclass. 50 people I think they are. They’re pretty small classes. They sell out pretty quick, but that’s going to be, really intimate and we’re just gonna be able to sit down and just really have like a round table with our, attendees and just really dive into all the things that the, we’ve briefly gone over today to help them fine tune their client experience, which is going to just automatically make.
Things better for

Christine Tremoulet: [00:28:01] that, and I’m also thankful that it’s on the 25th I speak on February 27th so it’s not at the same time. So I can go.

Jason Marino: [00:28:10] Oh yeah. Yeah. We could come see yours. That works

Christine Tremoulet: [00:28:12] that I hate it. I, I, I’m, every year there’s always, or at least every year that I’ve spoken, there’s always somebody or something I want to see at the exact same time.

So I always have to miss seen other people, but I’m really excited about that because I think.

Walking through that whole client experience from beginning to end. That’s where you show your clients the value in your pricing.

They see that, like what makes you different from someone else? Why they should consider you or they don’t.
You know what if, if people don’t value it, that’s okay. Yeah.

Jason Marino: [00:28:55] it is. Okay. And you can’t be, can’t be butthurt about that. You have to go, okay, that’s not the right client for me. No problem. They will. The next client will come along and I mean, it’s not, you don’t snap your fingers and they walk up, but yeah, you, you, you figure out who your ideal client is and you help convert.

Is it essential to focus on just one type of photography for your business?

Christine Tremoulet: [00:29:11] You touched on this briefly at the start, but you don’t focus on just one niche of photography. You have a variety.

Jason Marino: [00:29:23] Yeah.

And, and you know, for, for those that are kind of starting out, it’s probably not a bad idea to focus on one thing, to get really great at that and to also keep yourself from going crazy. But we have been doing this so long that, we’ve been able to, I wouldn’t say we’ve mastered anything, but we’ve been able to do good enough at multiple different genres that we can handle doing that.

And, and it, it took time to get to that point. To be able to, you know, move throughout the genres and be able to defer things at a level that is required of us. And so, yeah, we do anything from seniors to Patois, to families to, we even, we have head shots, we have a commercial photography, and we have an Associate photographer who also does real estate and drone. And we, you know, we do that in weddings, of course, which we still love to do. We just take a couple of them a year and try to stick with just high end, a simple, you know, just fun weddings that are something we would prefer to do versus things we feel like we have to.

Christine Tremoulet: [00:30:19] You feel that that has also helped with your success in your market size?

Jason Marino: [00:30:26] I would say so because we, yeah, not, we don’t have to specialize in one thing, which then allows, you know, so we, we don’t do newborns. I’ll say that. Right. We won’t, we literally will pass those off to our friends that have a studio around the corner, cause they’re excellent with it. And we just don’t want anything to do with that.

It’s just not our thing. But yeah. Other than that, yeah, someone can call us up and go, Hey, can you come down and do head shots of the mayor? It’s like, absolutely. And we’ve done that and Hey, we’ve got the fire department. Hey, we’ve got this big insurance company or law firm and we’re there. And then the next day we’ve got a client coming in and we’re doing boudoir, and then that evening it’s a senior.

So we are able to, just jump across all genres and deliver a great experience to everybody all the same.

Christine Tremoulet: [00:31:05] A lot of times, you know, if you’re a full time wedding photographer, somebody might call you up and say, do you photograph seniors? And as photographers, we, we are like, don’t they understand , I only focus on this niche, but I think. Most people out there don’t understand. They’re like, I know a photographer and they don’t get that.

You might be just one area of photographer.

Jason Marino: [00:31:30] Yeah, and that can be bad, especially with someone’s like, well, I know a portrait photographer. I’m going to call them and ask them to do my wedding. And I’ve heard so many horror stories, where people or photographers will go do a wedding and they knew nothing about being a wedding photographer because that’s mostly documentary photography.

And the backups required and shooting on dual card slots and just not missing anything and creating compelling documentary photographs is a whole, portraiture.

Christine Tremoulet: [00:31:57] The pace as well. The day of the day of shooting is a very different pace.
people find you online if they are looking for more.

Jason Marino: [00:32:07] our website is, ImaginePhotoAZ.com all of our Instagram and Pinterest, Facebook, Twitter, it’s all Imagine Photo AZ. That’s all of our handles. So we’re pretty easy to find that way. And of course we love mentoring and working with other photographers and we have people fly in and meet with us quite often to help train them one on one and help them build their successful businesses for themselves.

So we’re happy to do that. And then I can be emailed directly. Jason @ imaginephotoAZ.com

Christine Tremoulet: [00:32:38] I love it and I will, of course, everything will be notes, but thank you so much for giving us a little inside behind the scenes.

Jason Marino: [00:32:47] I appreciate you having me on the show. This is a really fun for me and I enjoy doing it.

One last tip – refine your process & practice!

And, you know, one last thing I just want people to know is that . All this. You know, I’m probably making it sound like it’s no big deal. You know? Oh, this is easy. We just turn on the switch and make money. But it’s not like that.

And so it really is important that you refine your processes and practice, practice, practice, so that when you do have actual clients, you aren’t fumbling around because you need to be confident in everything you do
so that your clients feel confident in you.

Christine Tremoulet: [00:33:19] Such a fantastic tip. Thank you for sharing that.

Jason Marino: [00:33:22] Oh, it’s my pleasure. And yeah, again, thanks for having me on
the show. Looking forward to listening back.

Christine Tremoulet: [00:33:28] And, um, if, if anybody spots a guy at Imaging or WPPI that looks like you’re like, Oh my God, that’s The Rock. It’s not The Rock. It’s Jason. But they should come up and say hi to you. Right?

Jason Marino: [00:33:41] Yeah. And everyone calls me Rock anyway, so it’s actually totally okay if you walk up, say “what’s up, Rock?” And I’ll actually turn around and acknowledge you because that’s what everyone calls me. So it works out good. We’re, when we’re, you know, we’re the same height, which is nice. And, he, he, he works out a little bit more than me, but yeah, that’s, that’s, that’s me. Look for me and say, hi, big brown tattooed guy.

Christine Tremoulet: [00:34:03] Well, I think I, I feel like on a podcast, like people never know necessarily what someone looks like. So, but if you, but if you see the Rock, go say hi to him. He’ll either be the Rock and he’s real. I’ve heard he’s really nice and friendly too.

Jason Marino: [00:34:19] He is. He’s a nice guy. Met him before so.

Christine Tremoulet: [00:34:23] Was it like looking in a mirror?

Jason Marino: [00:34:24] It was funny cause I had always, I got to do a, I got to do a, I don’t know, like a walk on part or whatever you want to call it on his HBO show Ballers a few seasons ago. So I’m seeing, I always had this funny thing, like we saw each other in person. We’d stop and just kind of look at each other and be like, you know what?

Who is this guy? You know? And kind of this funny moment. But, it wasn’t like that at all. He’s just a, he’s a sweet guy. And yeah, it was fun working on the show. And. And, yeah, it was weird. So good times.

Christine Tremoulet: [00:34:53] Thank you again, and I can’t wait to see you both coming up in spring

Jason Marino: [00:34:59] Oh, thank you. Have a wonderful rest of your day.

Christine Tremoulet: [00:35:02] Thank you again so much for joining us. Show notes for this episode are available at Reframesuccess.com

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The post Running a Successful Studio in a Small Market with Jason Marino appeared first on Personal Brand Photography for Creatives in Houston, Texas - Christine Tremoulet.

Rachel Brenke of The LawTog & the host of the Business Bites podcast joins Christine Tremoulet to share her insights on Intellectual Property Law and how it impacts us as photographers. From Trademarks to Copyright, you need to know about these things so that you can protect yourself and the digital assets that you create. Your photographs are your livelihood – you need to know how to handle something if they are not used properly.

Legal stuff might sound like it should be boring, but Rachel makes it fun & exciting!

Would you like to support Reframe Success and be a member of the Photographer’s Inner Circle? Learn more and join us for additional training from Christine Tremoulet & select show guests, along with other special perks available only to show supporters!

For the transcript, read this full post.

The LawTog, the leading legal resource for professional photographers, can be found at http://ChristineTremoulet.com/thelawtog
The Business Bites podcast can be found at https://rachelbrenke.com/pod/

You can follow Rachel on Instagram at @thelawtog and @rachelbrenke

Christine Tremoulet (Intro): [00:00:00] You’re listening to Reframe Success, and I’m your host, Christine Tremoulet. I believe that you can have a successful photography business and you get to define what success looks like for you. My guests and I will help you with actual advice and information on how to get there. I want you to know that I believe in you, and that YOU are enough.

Now let’s get on with the show.

This episode is sponsored by the InstaLocal Prompt Planner, 365 days of ideas that I created for you so that you’re never at a loss for what to prompt on social media to connect with ideal clients in your local market. Learn more InstaPrompts.com

Christine Tremoulet: [00:00:50] Hello everyone and welcome. Joining me today is my friend Rachel Brenke. As some of you may be familiar with Rachel, but if you’re not familiar with her personally, you might be familiar or have heard of her business, The LawTog. So thank you so much for joining me today. Rachel.

Rachel Brenke: [00:01:06] I’m excited to talk about all the legal things today. All the Legal Things!
You’re one of the only people that gets excited about that.

Christine Tremoulet: [00:01:17] Why can’t you just take a second to tell us a little bit about who you are and how you came

Rachel Brenke: [00:01:22] to be the LawTog?
To be the LawTog.

Christine Tremoulet: [00:01:23] Tog?

Rachel Brenke: [00:01:24] Oh man. It’s a long story. We could be here forever, but the short of it is, I am a practicing attorney. I have my own firm that is called Eden Law.

We are a business and intellectual property firms, so we do copyright and trademark work, primarily serving photographers, but it didn’t start there. In fact, I started in the photography industry as a photographer. Helping to support my family. It’s now a family of five kids and three rescue puppies. But I started photography in order to have a creative outlet and do run a business and to help support my family.

And by the time that I exited law school, because I thought that I wanted the career path of going into criminal law, I fell in love and saw a need that photographers had for protecting their livelihoods. You know, being on the ground floor of helping the mom down the street be able to provide for her family or the single individual who this is their entire livelihood. And so I really, really enjoy having the LawTog, now it is a legal resource for photographers. In fact, we’re really the only dedicated legal resource still decades worth of articles, contract template forms, live videos, free videos, paid videos, you name it.

We have it of all the top legal questions that you guys have. Okay. All

Christine Tremoulet: [00:02:46] right. Because you know, it is really true. You said that, and a lot of people don’t know that about me. But prior to becoming a photographer, and prior to working in the web industry, I actually, I worked in the legal field and my favorite legal stuff that I worked on as a paralegal was intellectual property.

And we worked with a very, the law firm I was at, worked with a very large global company on trademarks and copyrights law. So I used to actually sit and ask the IP lawyers questions about trademarks and copyright and things like, can you copyright a recipe? Which you can’t. Then they would teach me all these different things.
I always found this part of the law fascinating, but I also find it fascinating how many people start or have even run for many years a photo business without a contract with their clients. So coming from my background, that was one of the first things I did. But yeah, let’s just like dive right in there.

Why? Why do I need a contract.

Rachel Brenke: [00:03:56] Oh, why do we need anything in business? You know, you get a logo and get a solid brand so that you attract your clients and so you can be remembered. Your marketing goes further. Why do we work on our craft so we can create a good product? Why do we want to worry about the legality, specifically contracts so we can avoid issues.

You know, one of the things that I feel I’m different as a lawyer, especially being in intellectual property and being a photographer myself, is that I approach contracts as a customer expectation setting tool. You know, one of the things that people don’t think a lot about contracts. Well, there’s a couple of things.
First, the pretty well understood idea is that contracts are there to protect you, right? They deliver it for me and they create the legal relationship, but a lot of people don’t realize is that they set expectations, but not even just like legal expectations. They’re setting expectations with your client.

And you’re starting to build buyers’ confidence. The more information that a buyer has, your client, in this case, the more information that they have about how an entire relationship’s going to go, what they’re going to receive, what they’re required to do, what you, the photographer, are required to do, what you, the photographer are going to receive.

And so the client starts to feel an enhanced feeling of buyer’s confidence, and that leads to easier sales, less problems. You know, one of the top issues that I see when it comes to issues between photographers and clients is lack of information or miscommunication, you know? And we can even bridge that over into copyright stuff.

I know we’re really focused on contracts today, but contracts are that expectation setting tool to provide this information. To create the legal relationship and to help prevent issues. I think that’s one of the big things about how I approach my businesses as well as how I approach my advisement of my photography clients at the law firm is we want to be as proactive as possible because you’re going to spend less resources.

That’s time, money, and energy by being proactive and working to prevent issues as opposed to cleaning it up later on. I think one of the big problems that I see with entrepreneurs in general, not just photographers. I’m not picking on you guys, but is you always think, I’m never going to have that problem.

Well, when you have that problem you’re looking at, instead of a couple of hundred bucks to draft your contract up front, you’re looking at thousands of dollars to resolve an issue. You’re looking at time away from your business. You’re looking at loss and branding value lost in a client who you could have prevented an issue with or easily rectified an issue with who could still gone out there and been a good voice box to refer your company.

And so yes, all of this, what I’m saying, people do not understand that is that contracts are like the epitome. They are the center of all of what I’m talking about and preventing issues, keeping time and money in your life so that you can be focused on photography instead of fixing issues. Because I’ll tell you what, even though I’m the attorney.

I don’t really, I don’t feel good making money cleaning up messes when I know something could have been easily preventable. And so when you go to someone have to clean it up for you, who is the only party that wins? The lawyers. And I’m speaking out against all my own kind. We should not, that should not be the way that we win.
I would rather make less money and have a longterm relationship and see the wins of you preventing issues by the use of contracts.

Christine Tremoulet: [00:07:33] So two points came up for me in this one and what you did, but, but it’s all really good points. One that contract isn’t just to protect me is it?

Rachel Brenke: [00:07:46] No. Is to protect both.

That’s one thing. The pushback that I hear from a lot of creatives and a lot of entrepreneurs in general, but particularly creatives, the pushback is. My clients are gonna be scared of this. They’re not going to understand this, or I’m scared of this and well, but it only protects me. And that’s not true.

It’s protecting both. I mean, if you guys just rewind on the episode and I kind of talked about in my very long soapbox already and climbed up real quick. I was saying it’s talking about what the client’s responsibilities are and what they’re going to receive. It’s also the photographer’s responsibilities under that contract as well.

What the photographer is going to receive. The typical exchange is money for photographs, right, but it’s also who, what is your responsibilities within that? Photographer has responsibility to deliver on a certain timeline. Client has a responsibility to pay X amount on a certain timeline. So it protects both.

And I don’t buy this argument that contracts, deter clients or it makes you, I don’t know. I, I don’t know. I just, to me, contracts make you look professional. You know, think about it. You go to download an app on the app store. What is those terms that pop up? It’s a contract. People are used to it.

You’re not going to deter clients,

Christine Tremoulet: [00:09:08] But that was so, that goes right into my second point though. None of us ever read those terms except do you find that a lot of times people hand a client contract and then later on. Like they don’t actually like should we take the time to explain, not necessarily all the legal terms of the contract, but should we also take the time to articulate the key points in the

Rachel Brenke: [00:09:35] contract to are for sure.

And the thing is, if you have a really well drafted contract lawyer drafted, by the way, whole other soapbox, do not write your own. Do not cobble off the internet. It will cause you more problems than it’s worth. But if you have your contract, and this is what I always, I’ve said this for years. If you find old videos on YouTube of The LawTog even like seven years ago, I’ve always said start with your workflow and your contract first cause they’re going to mirror each other.

Your email confirmations, your followups, all communications that you have with your clients are all going to mirror each other. And why is that? Well, if you start with the legal foundations and you marry that with your workflow, you have a really well thought out document. It’s going to make it so that you’ve talked about what’s in that contract during your workflow.

So it doesn’t necessarily have to be the situation. Christine, where I go, all right, sit down, let me get up the stone tablet and let’s write all the contract. Like it doesn’t have to be a crazy formal thing. I do think for more high dollar. sessions in riskier, more liability driven type of work. yes, definitely sit down and explain it.

But if you’re doing a really good job of making sure that your contract, your workflow, mirror each other and you’re communicating, you don’t necessarily have to sit there and read them line by line like death by PowerPoint, right? You don’t necessarily need to do that to your clients. That being said, it’s extremely important that a photographer understands what’s in the contract.

Why it’s in there and why it works like that or how it works so that you’re able to answer questions when your clients have them, and guess what? Questions are okay. You would rather clients ask a question. And you’d be able to explain it or just, you know, hedge off their questions by explaining it upfront, then no one reading or no one understanding or having a misunderstanding and then having a problem once you’ve already signed and you’re in relationship together.

Christine Tremoulet: [00:11:31] Right. Because, and I did do that sensitive work for years. I did boudoir photography work for years, and so there was language in my contract to address that. like the security. Of their images and how their image files will be handled because that confidentiality was also very important to them. In addition to when would I deliver, how would I deliver, but also how would I protect them?

How would I make sure that their images weren’t going to show up someplace else?

Rachel Brenke: [00:12:03] I mean, it’s so interesting to me all the different ways that you can communicate this. I mean, yes. So the bottom line, to answer your question, I didn’t really say. I think yes, you should always explain, but think about all the ways you can use that information.

You just listed it. You would have some frequently asked questions. Have a frequently asked questions on your site that mirrors what your contract looks like. You know, have it even your standard workflow that every time you communicate with a client, you’re using the sandwich method. Whereas the last piece of the bread, you’ve got bread, meat than bread.

The last piece of the bread is telling them what the next steps going to be. Well, that’s going to mirror your workflow and your contract if it’s drafted properly. And so, yeah, it just, it contracts our normal way of life. They should readily be able to understood and explained. And it doesn’t have to be a crazy big thing.
Easily integrate it and you’ll be good to go.

Christine Tremoulet: [00:12:55] But Rachel, I think that contract language is just, I mean, it’s, it’s really icky and it feels. I don’t know. It just, it almost feels kind of slimy. So I want to take my contract and I’m just going to dumb it down into like normal language.

Rachel Brenke: [00:13:10] Is that okay? I’m going to choke you.

No, I’m kidding. I say that with love because Christine’s one of my clients that I love her. you know what’s interesting there is this idea that we have to use these crazy here to wherefore, right. Type of thing with contracts.

Christine Tremoulet: [00:13:27] Therefore

Rachel Brenke: [00:13:29] for

Christine Tremoulet: [00:13:30] whether

Rachel Brenke: [00:13:32] you know what I have when I received contracts like that and like settlement stuff from opposing counsel.

And there’s typically, they’re older, right? There’s just in the, I’ll go through and I like drip red on it and I redline all the here to wherefores. I’m like, dude, this is not England. Like back in like the whatever years. We don’t need to be like calling out the, anyhow,

Christine Tremoulet: [00:13:52] we’re not in 1787 anymore. But, but to the point of like, should I take my contract and just dumb it down into simple language.

Rachel Brenke: [00:14:04] Well, you shouldn’t, but if you have a good lawyer. If you have a good lawyer who understands contract law, business law, intellectual property law, which is something we can talk about here in a second, because a lot of business lawyers don’t really know that area and they understand who they’re working with.

A creative slash photographer. They should already be actively working to do that because if they truly understand your business, what you are like, what your job is, and the client pushback. They’re not going to write it like that. Someone like myself, and I know a couple of other attorneys who work like Joey Vitale and so forth that work in the creative industry with photographers and such.

We know that you guys, photographers are going to receive objections to languaging like that. It’d be scared of that kind of stuff. So no, it doesn’t have to be all crazy. We can dumb it down, but here’s the problem. You, the photographer should not be the one, quote unquote, dumbing it down. And I hate calling it, dumbing it down, really editing it to me.

More plain, understandable language, right? The most important thing is that it’s readily understood and that it conveys and creates the relationship that you want to have you and your client together. Right? And. Whether, if you are all about the here to wherefores, please don’t send me hate mail. You go on with your bad self.

But majority of photographers don’t want that and we can ha, you should have your lawyer write it that way. And I’ve said that repeated thing through here because writing a contract is not as simple as putting words on a piece of paper. I promise you this, we have to think about all the existing contract fundamentals.

We have to think about existing laws in the state. We have to think about all the implications of intellectual property, especially since photographers are a very unique business, right? Most businesses have a business name and a logo. But they may not necessarily be selling intellectual property. You guys are, you’re selling photographs.

I mean, experience services and all that too. But the end product is, and yeah, so just understand that we need to be on the up and up with this and have youth contracts readily understandable contracts. Be able to explain them and make sure that the lawyer drafted.

Christine Tremoulet: [00:16:20] Well, I think that’s the thing that I keep.

I see very often as somebody who. Is a legal geek is that people go, Oh, I’m going to put this in my contract. And you know, I of course, always tell him I’m not a lawyer. I’m not a lawyer. Rachel is a lawyer, but she’s not your lawyer. This. We are talking about legal general.

Rachel Brenke: [00:16:43] Should I talk about that for a second?

So I’m legally required to give that to. I was like, where’s your disclaimer? Rachel?

Christine Tremoulet: [00:16:50] Rachel is a lawyer, but she’s not your lawyer unless you go hire her.

Rachel Brenke: [00:16:54] Yes. So like anything we talk about here is like general legal advice. It probably would be pretty decent to you use where you are, but always check with local council to help you?

Yes. I am legally required by the bar. Anytime they give an educational talk like this. Yeah.

Christine Tremoulet: [00:17:09] Yeah. So now that we got that the way, but what I see people say is like, Oh, I’m gonna add this to my contract. And sometimes the things that they want to add simply are not legally enforceable in their state, so make

Rachel Brenke: [00:17:22] sure.

That

Christine Tremoulet: [00:17:24] what you’re putting in your contract can be in, talk to your lawyer and make sure it can even be enforced. Your contract isn’t something that you just made up yesterday and you’re like, I mean, that’s your, your business process and things like that. Sure. But what’s in your contract has to be enforceable.

Rachel Brenke: [00:17:42] And not even just that. It’s also a balance. And I think this is where I’m a little difference in like Joey’s different too, and a couple of others right. That we also, we know we’re watching, we know all the crazy things that you guys run into with clients, but we also know there’s a balance in a contract that we don’t want to do what’s called provision stuffing.

You don’t just want to throw every, you know, a contingency for every single situation that can happen, which kind of sounds counterintuitive. But that’s where like the legal advisement comes in. You is a non-lawyer.
Christine, may sit there and see something in a group and all of a sudden you’ve added 25 different new clauses that are very specific to situations.

Whereas I as a lawyer can look at that and go, we can wrap up these 25 into maybe a paragraph. So it condenses it, makes it a less potential for issues. That’s another thing like self drafting contract. You could render the entire thing unenforceable, then where are you? Right? Or it can end up being drafted against you because you don’t know legal principles.

So what I always say in these situations is, and I think, yeah, I’m thinking about The LawTog group, my Facebook group, that is what we talk about as legal issues all day long. And what I encourage people to do.
You go to TheLawTog.com and you look at the contracts, you see what we have included. You don’t even have to buy from us, but look what’s included in the contract.

The bullet point list. Take that list. I don’t care. Then go over to The LawTog group. Watch it for a couple of weeks. You’re going to see some crazy stories. That’s like crazy stories, but understand they’re the outliers, right? Not everyone’s rushing to a legal group to tell you how great my contract saved me from an issue, because you may not even realize that it saved you from an issue, but.

Take the list of description, the list of the issues that you see and take that to your attorney. It doesn’t have to be me. It can be anybody. But take that to them. Don’t try to draft it yourself. So I do think that there’s an element of, Oh, we see problems. Stay on top of it. Cause your contract should be a living, breathing thing.

You shouldn’t be a one and done.

Christine Tremoulet: [00:19:46] Right. Well, and I just, I want to reemphasize that. Writing your own contract, you could create a contract that can’t be enforced. I think that sentence is, is very critical for people to hear. Make sure your contract can be enforced.

Rachel Brenke: [00:20:06] Yep. Yep. And that’s where like, I mean, guys, there’s a reason that we take contract law for an entire year of law school.

There’s a reason that it is a huge percentage on the bar exam. Because contracts are everywhere. No matter what area of law you’re doing, you’re inevitably going to run into probably some form of contract. And now don’t send me hate mail. I know there’s exclusions, but generally speaking in the civil world, you’re going to run into the contract, right?

And it’s not as simple as writing it on a piece of paper, but you still should be actively involved in the process of creating it. And that’s, I think where I try to differentiate myself is when clients come to me. We are going to actively talk about your entire business plan and do an entire business audit.

I’m not just an order taker. I mean, if you want me to write contract A, I’ll write contract A for you and that’s fine. But I may also say, okay, but you probably also need this document. You need this and this. So. I share that to say, when you’re looking for an attorney, look for someone that has more of a proactive approach versus like I rolled up at Bonefish Grill and ordered a lobster dinner.

Right? That’s all I got. I didn’t get upgraded to the, and don’t think of it sales. I mean, if they’re actually a good attorney, they’re going to tell you the things that you need.

Christine Tremoulet: [00:21:19] Right? Right. and we, we’ve mentioned briefly in passing my other favorite love, which is copyright law, because I think this is.

It’s an important thing. It’s a du term that gets thrown around accidentally. I seen photographers say on their website, I give all my clients copyright so that they can print their images, but what they really mean, they don’t really mean that they’re giving them copyright. You know, I’ve seen this in so many different forms.

I’ve seen clients demand copyright of the images, and sometimes those clients I work with now mostly with brand clients. So working with business owners, they do actually know what they mean and what they’re looking for. Should we do like a little high level touch on just

Rachel Brenke: [00:22:06] cause I think it’s important.

It’s something that you should. Be part of your education process for yourself, for your photography business, but also for your clients. And you just touched on like the biggest questions that photographers get or the issues that we see. I mentioned it before, that we are in a unique business in that yes, we have a business name and logo.

So we have intellectual property in that, but we’re selling intellectual property, our end product, our photographs, whether they’re digital, print, album, canvases, whatever. And within that, you’re protected by intellectual property laws, primarily copyright, which is going to protect that artistic expression that’s in a physical form, physical, it can be digital.

Right. And understanding that. If you have ownership, you know, that’s going to depend on a couple of things. Are you an employee of a company and photographing for the company? Probably is owned by the company, if you’re an employee. If you’re just a solo photographer, photographing for yourself, and the only way that copyrights can be conveyed to a client that’s ownership to the client is by contract.

And why does this matter? Well, it matters because copyright is actually a bundle of rights. We call it a bundle of sticks. And I love to visualize it that way because each stick represents a different right? We have a right to distribute, to display, to reproduce, right of attribution, et cetera. Those are the big ones, and what you can do is you can either sell the whole bundle to your client by contract.

You’re going to convey it to them. But do they really need all those sticks? That’s

Christine Tremoulet: [00:23:40] what I’m selling them copyright. When they say,

Rachel Brenke: [00:23:44] I want

Christine Tremoulet: [00:23:44] copyright, and I say, cool, here’s the entire bundle of sticks, but once I give them that whole bundle sticks, I don’t have the right to print it anymore.

Rachel Brenke: [00:23:53] You don’t have the right to print, you don’t have the right to use, you know, and not that, in fact, you’ve given them an entire bundle of sticks when they only needed one and they only needed to borrow one.

Right. And what is that one? They just typically want to be able to, well, to I guess, display and reproduce. They want to display it, whether it’s personal or commercial. There’s a distinction on how you’re going to license. Personal is typically done through a print release. So this is our circle back to contracts.

Commercial is typically done through a commercial license. I don’t like the term print release, but that’s what’s in the industry. Cause you don’t, you’re not actually really releasing anything. You’re extending a personal license to Sally. She can print to her, whatever’s in your terms if you want to allow her to only print up to five by seven or she can print however she wants as long as it’s for personal use.

That’s typically the mechanism. The tool that you offer, you know, to convey that to your client is print release. So circling back to what you said. The majority of personal portraiture clients. So I’m not talking about headshots for, for companies, I’m not talking about marketing materials. Something’s going to go on a book, an album cover, any of that. Personal use.

It may be on my Facebook, my personal Facebook. It can be, simply for me to share with my family. That sort of thing is going to be a. There’s often not a need to actually convey the copyright on it. And majority of those clients, when they say they want the copyright or they just say the rights, oftentimes it’s condensed and they say, I want the rights.

Well, what rights are you, is that client asking for a right to own that whole bundle of sticks or are they asking for the right to simply print and use it personally? And I find that it’s the latter. They just need a license and I’m not sitting here just stand in ivory tower and say you should, you should never transfer copyright cause I see, I hear that a lot.

I think there’s times and places for it. It’s all dependent on what you want to do for your business or you made a good point, Christine, once I take that whole bundle of sticks and I convey all copyrights through a contract to a client, I can’t use those for marketing anymore unless I have it like a license back to me.
I can’t reproduce it anymore. Once I’ve handed that all over, I had no more sticks in my hands. I cannot use those photographs.

Christine Tremoulet: [00:26:07] Oh. And one of my very, very first paying clients ever that she asked for copyright. And her, her husband was an attorney. She knew it. She knew what she was asking for, and fortunately I knew what she was asking for.

I confirmed, you know, is this what you’re asking for? Yes, she did not want me to use them for marketing, et cetera. Then she said, well, I was allowed to have prints that I could show to people in my studio, so I could have printed copies and that was it. And then that’s what we made

Rachel Brenke: [00:26:40] sure the document

Christine Tremoulet: [00:26:41] said. Like.

She owned copyright of them and she, she paid me extra for this. I sold it to her

Rachel Brenke: [00:26:49] at

Christine Tremoulet: [00:26:50] price.

Rachel Brenke: [00:26:51] But that way sh

Christine Tremoulet: [00:26:53] because she wanted to control it. She wanted to make sure that I never used them for marketing in a magazine or also there it was, it was an event and there were guests there, so she wanted to make sure I wasn’t going to hand them over to the media.
That was, and I think that’s the best thing to do. When somebody comes to you with this issue, just ask them like when they ask the question, ask questions

Rachel Brenke: [00:27:16] back. Yeah.

Christine Tremoulet: [00:27:18] Because as soon as she said, I don’t want them in the hands of the media and I don’t want, I don’t want you to use them online or in print for marketing.

I said, okay, cool. Here’s my price for that. And then I said, can I use them in person? And it turned out in the end, I never did. I didn’t need to. And. I just, I never did. I didn’t need them for our marketing piece at all.

Rachel Brenke: [00:27:44] I think the big thing there is don’t freak out if a client asks a question, you know, we said this earlier on, welcome the questions, just be prepared to answer it.

And when a client comes to you, this is all about education, is what we were talking about before. You as the business owner have this responsibility, I think to explain copyright, to understand copyright. And it’s funny you said that she was the wife of a lawyer because even before you said that, I was thinking, and I’ll admit it, guys, lawyers are the worst clients, like they’re the worst photography clients.

And. I semi-joke with that. But it’s kinda true cause some of them have ego trips, but don’t assume just because they’re a lawyer or a fellow business owner that they know intellectual property laws. Some of you are business owners. Well, all of you are probably business owners listening, and some of you may not understand the copyright laws of what we’re talking about here.

And that’s okay because now you’re going to go learn about it. But my point in that to say is you guys have to take the responsibility to explain this. Do you need to send them this podcast or give a 10 minute diatribe about copyright law? No. Simply just boil it down to… ask them what usages or are you wanting?

If they say something, say, well, I’m sorry, I’m not able to offer that at this time. Or, okay, cool. Let me, let me get a licensed drafter that does that. Or think about if you’re willing to sell the copyright on the photographs. I think one of the things too, and we don’t need to go too far, I think down on this topic.

But I think it’s worth a thought. You guys, thoughts going while you’re sitting down going, well, do I want to sell a copyright or not? Is what are you really going to do with those photographs? You know what I mean? Like if they’re just a family session, what are you really going to do with them? I mean, are you actually going to go actually try to put them into stock photos?

Are you actually going to go try to license them to, I dunno. Any media

Christine Tremoulet: [00:29:33] unlicensed them to old Navy for an ad campaign?

Rachel Brenke: [00:29:36] Probably not in my mind. Exactly. I mean, if you are fantastic, then you already know what kind of position that you want to take. You just got to think about it like really, what are you gonna do with it?

And I’m kind of actually one of those people that I, I don’t get my clients. An offer, like I don’t give them the choice up front. My own photography clients, I say to them, you know, I retain copyrights. You get a personal license to use it, and if they have questions, then we, then we come to a meeting of that and.
My goal with that is so that I have the options if I want to license it later. If I want to, put these up for display, then I don’t have to worry about having a license back. Cause remember if I hand him the bundle of six in order for me to use even my own port portfolio online and that kind of stuff, it has to be licensed back to me.

But there’s also an element of privacy too. It’s not even just copyright ownership here. If I’m shooting personal portraiture and like the situation you’re talking about. They simply want to, protect it. I’m okay with that because guess what? I’ve got four other clients behind them that I can use on social media.

Is this one really gonna make or break me? No,

Christine Tremoulet: [00:30:43] and that’s the best thing I think that you can do is sit down and think,

Rachel Brenke: [00:30:48] think

Christine Tremoulet: [00:30:48] through. Your opinions, your beliefs, your choice for your business on how you want to handle these things. I made a choice when I, when I switched and went like full time on doing boudoir photography.

When I did that, I made a choice that I had a very strong privacy clause and, I put all, not all the power because I maintained copyright, but I put the power to display images online, sort of back in their hands. Like I made that part of the conversation with them because I understood that a lot of my clients wanted that privacy.

And so when they came to me and said, Oh, do I own the copyright? I would then say, well, what are you looking for? Well, I just want to make sure you’re not posting them on Facebook because I don’t, I almost all the time I photograph teachers and lawyers, both teachers and lawyers didn’t want their images on Facebook, or even online. So I would then say, no problem, I’ll sit with you. I will get your approval per image before I use them, et cetera. And that was outlined really clearly in my contract, but that was the choice that I made. And there are other photographers out there who also make a choice that their contract says, I can use anything I photograph for marketing, because I’ve photographed it.

Just decide where you stand and how you want to approach it.

Rachel Brenke: [00:32:22] Agreed. And you know, I think the big thing to understand here is that copyright infringement, which is someone using the photograph in a way that you they don’t own it or they didn’t have the license for it typically is not going to be your client.

You know, sometimes, but when I, the the classic case, this is the number one thing we do at the law firm. Why majority of you guys come to me. And which by the way, it’s Eden-Law.com – you can just come through The LawTog. But the number one thing that we deal with is copyright infringement especially and particularly against large corporations.

There’s this ma, you know, you would think these large corporations would understand, Hey, I can’t just take an image off the internet and I’m not saying that you photograph for these large corporations and they stepped out of their license. No. You photograph for a client, you delete. Did that all is gravy with you and the clients, but then it’s posted on Instagram.

Either on clients’ Instagram or you’re on Instagram, and all of a sudden, some large corporation decides to snag and use it. You would think these corporations would be educating their teams, but they’re not, but they’re not.

Christine Tremoulet: [00:33:29] It’s always blamed on, well, we had an intern,

Rachel Brenke: [00:33:33] a rogue employee was my favorite. I about spit my

Christine Tremoulet: [00:33:36] coffee out.

Oh, the rogue employee. I was gonna say, I’ve, I’ve, I’ve seen a lot of, our intern must have done it, but yes, that rogue employee.

Rachel Brenke: [00:33:46] I love it though. You know, and I want to say, I don’t care if it was your dog. It’s still happened. You need to pay. But the reason, and I think this is why copyright is so important, A, we need to understand in our contracts with our print release or commercial license.

We need to understand who has the rights to what and who wants what and what you’re selling. You also need to make sure you have it properly drafted and then you need to prepare yourself for when, not if, but when somebody infringes upon your photographs and you never know. I mean, we have big names that are adverse parties rolling through our firm all the time, and it’s photographers.

They always say to me. Never thought they’d take from me. I only have a couple hundred followers on Instagram. They don’t care. And that’s the unfortunate thing. And so you guys need to equip yourself with this knowledge that this is your product, this is your livelihood, and you should get paid for anytime a photograph is used, as long as you’re the copyright holder and stand up for it.

So educate yourself, educate your client, and be prepared in case someone infringes. Cause it’s not if it’s when.

Christine Tremoulet: [00:34:48] There are rogue employees out there everywhere, stealing images. We shouldn’t laugh about it. But that one last point, and I, I realize years, and you, I’ve, like I said, studied copyright law in one form or another for almost 20 years now.

I, I didn’t realize that until you and I were talking earlier this year about the fact that, if I hand the copyright to my client, now it’s their duty to police the image. So in a way, keeping the copyright means that then I’m the one that is also, it’s almost like it’s a service for them. Then the one police in the image, if, if a family photo is stolen and a major company goes and uses it. They don’t have to go through all the hoops to get that company to stop using it. I own the copyright. I’m the one who’s going to reach out to a lawyer. Hopefully I’ve registered it. That’s a, that’s a whole other episode that we need to record some day, but funds of information on the law.

Talk on how to register and why you should register your images. But I’m the one that’s going to end up policing it and making

Rachel Brenke: [00:36:09] sure

Christine Tremoulet: [00:36:10] that it’s used properly. They don’t have to deal with doing that. So yet another way, if you wanted to spin it as like a perk for your client of why you’re keeping it.

And a minor point here, if somebody has a studio where you have associate photographers or second shooters, you know, like if you’re a wedding photographer, you have seconds. You need to make sure that you have documentation in place with them to handle copyright as well. Because that. That gives them, that gets into the legality of who owns the copyright when you’re an employee and everything, like who’s an employee versus who’s a contractor, and that’s that whole part of contract was still has a lot of bumps in it, doesn’t it?
Rachel Brenke: [00:37:05] Yeah. You know, it’s not a, the, the, the copyright law and the landscape of it. Even in light of the new push that PPA is making for this supposed small claims despute resolution when someone steals your photographs. Yes. The copyright law leaves a lot to be desired. and there’s a lot of changes that need to happen.

So. Hopefully I think that this will hopefully be a change that’s coming, a good change. at least it’s a little step in the right direction. So really my, the biggest things is like what we’ve talked about here, know your rights. Know that in the United States you create it, you haven’t signed it over and you’re not an employee, you own it.

It’s called unregistered. And, but I recommend, and we, again, we could do it a whole other talk. Maybe we’ll do it in the future and copyright and, but you should be registering your photographs because registration does a few things. It elevates the damages. It makes it hard for especially large corporations to ignore your demand letters and they can just simply ignore, because without a registration, you can’t file a federal lawsuit.

Not that I’m recommending it, but they know there’s no real threat of that without that registration. And so. Yeah, it just, it’s, it doesn’t mean you can’t recover when someone infringes, you know, we’d do demand letters all the time at the firm, and we get recoveries all the time. It just . It ends up putting you the photographer in a position that you have to pay out the money, and this is just, this is just frustrates me at the copyright rate system right now, is that the innocent party, the wronged party is the one that has to pony up the money and in order to assert the rights.

But at the end of the day, it’s a part of cost of doing business. And you can reduce that cost by educating clients, registering your photographs, and staying on top of understanding what’s in your contracts.

Christine Tremoulet: [00:38:52] Have a contract.

Rachel Brenke: [00:38:53] Have a contract.

Christine Tremoulet: [00:38:56] I feel like so often that’s a, the rally cry in the LawTog facebook group is, what was your

Rachel Brenke: [00:39:03] contract say? Well because? Think about it. I mean, you get into this legal relationship and then all of a sudden, you know, client asks a question and you’re the photographer, like, well, I don’t know. Or you asked the client a question. The client’s like, I don’t know. How would you have resolve that? By having a written contract.

I mean, if you put everything in one place of who’s supposed to do what, there should be no question. Right.

Christine Tremoulet: [00:39:24] All right. Any of… I feel like you’ve given us so much amazing information. I’m going to link to TheLawTog.com and also, Eden Law. Eden-law.com is the firm. You can be found on Instagram. Everywhere. I would say you can be found on Instagram, you can be found on Facebook you can be found more than once on Instagram,

Rachel Brenke: [00:39:48] I am hording Instagram accounts.

Christine Tremoulet: [00:39:55] Any, any closing tips for success?

Rachel Brenke: [00:40:01] I think the biggest thing is, this was a lot of information. I talk very fast cause I tried to get a lot of info out. I really highly suggest that you go back and re listen to it and make a checklist and understand everything we’ve talked about is something that you should be doing at least yearly.
Like you meet with your CPA, hopefully yearly. Same thing. Get an attorney relationship. I’m happy to do it. We have a host of counsels all across America and

But unfortunately not

Christine Tremoulet: [00:40:30] Canada.

Rachel Brenke: [00:40:32] No, not Canada. I’m working on it. So the you’re first to know, I’m working on it, but we, I just really suggest that you get in with a good attorney. One, hopefully that really understands copyright laws and you guys have seen that it impacts us greatly and.

Create the relationship and educate yourself in this, because I hear it time and time again when I have someone on the other end of the phone who’s sobbing to me because they might lose their business because they didn’t set up an LLC and they’re about to be personally sued, and they’re like, but this is the income for my family.

Or they’re so upset at a large corporation for taking their photograph and putting it on the side of a cruise ship. And. Then I have to say, well, did you register it? Did you take these steps? And I’m like, well, no. And I’m like, well, it’s going to cost more money and time to fight. Like I hate delivering the bad news.
And guess what? You don’t have to wonder what to do. The LawTog has all of this for you. We have business checklists, we have free contracts, we have all sorts of things. So. Really long winded bottom line, re-listen to this episode, write notes, then head over to the LawTog and just even just message the team and it’d be myself or someone else through our chat and say, I’m new.

Where do I start? And we will help you.

Christine Tremoulet: [00:41:43] Yeah, and I’m definitely, I’m a also link to a checklist in the show notes to help people out so that that way you can get information together. But. It’s so, so important. Such an important foundational thing, and a great reminder too, for those of us that maybe have had a contract in place for years that we’ve been using, you know, review it to make sure it’s still saying what we want it to say.

Rachel Brenke: [00:42:14] That’s huge because we’ve had clients who have not gone back and they just keep sending out contracts. They think they’re doing the right thing and they had pricing from five years ago. And they’ve been bound. Oh, yeah. I had this happen to a wedding client. And they, because they didn’t do that yearly evaluation, her prices had gone up.

It had been five years since she had updated her contract and it did not reflect her new pricing.

Christine Tremoulet: [00:42:37] And while we, you know, kind of joked about how none of us read it, the accept the terms things on our mobile devices, when we download apps, some of your clients will actually read your contract and come back to you and say, well, this says this…

Rachel Brenke: [00:42:51] Why are you sending me an invoice for 4,000 more?

You don’t, your contracts 4,000 less

Christine Tremoulet: [00:42:57] Right. So important.

So thank you again for joining us today.

Rachel Brenke: [00:43:04] Yes, of course. If you guys have any questions, please don’t hesitate to reach out. Like, you know, we have the paid for stuff, we have the firm, we have the templates and all that. But really the primary focus of the LawTog is to get you guys the information.

So just reach out if you get overwhelmed and we can help.

Christine Tremoulet: [00:43:20] Okay. Thank you again. You are so awesome.

Rachel Brenke: [00:43:24] Thanks. Have a good one.

Christine: [00:43:25] Thank you again so much for joining us. Show notes for this episode are available at ReframeSuccess.com. If you enjoyed this episode, please share it with your friends and be sure to leave a five star review.

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Thank you again. Until next time!

The post The Importance of Protecting Your Business with The LawTog, Rachel Brenke – Episode 2 appeared first on Personal Brand Photography for Creatives in Houston, Texas - Christine Tremoulet.

A full transcript of the episode can be found at the bottom of this post.

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Dave & Abby’s wedding photography can be found at abbyplusdave.com
Dave’s Coaching website can be found at DaveMossCoaching.com
You can find him on Instagram at @abbyplusdave and @davemosscoach

This episode is sponsored by InstaLocal, the course that I created for you to help you develop your personalized 17-minute a day strategy for growing your Local business. Learn more at GoInstaLocal.com

Show Transcript

Christine Tremoulet: [00:00:00] You’re listening to Reframe Success, and I’m your host, Christine Tremoulet. I believe that you can have a successful photography business and you get to define what success looks like for you. My guests and I will help you with actionable advice and information on how to get there. I want you to know that I believe in you and that you are enough.

Now let’s get on with the show.

This episode is sponsored by InstaLocal, the course I created to help you discover your personal 17-minute a day strategy to connect with and book more clients in your local market. Learn more at GoInstaLocal.com.

Christine Tremoulet: [00:00:47] Hello everyone and welcome. Joining me today is Dave Moss. Dave is a wedding photographer along with his wife, Abby, and a business coach. He lives in Calgary, which is in Alberta, Canada. And he’s speaking coming up at WPPI in February of 2020. Along with true North, which is an April. Dave, you have to tell me where true North is, and he is speaking in number of sold out conferences this year.

So we would tell you all about them, but you can’t join because they’re already sold out. You can find his work at abbyplusdave.com and you can also find his coaching work at davemosscoaching.com. So thank you so much for joining me today, Dave.

Dave Moss: [00:01:32] Hey, thanks for having me. Pleasure to be here. I mean, I say it’s a pleasure to be here sitting at my desk, but it’s pleasure to talk to you.

Christine Tremoulet: [00:01:40] You’re there. And I’m here, but you’re there. In Canada, we’re probably in very different climates at this time of year,

Dave Moss: [00:01:46] Very likely. Yeah.

Christine Tremoulet: [00:01:49] So you and Abby are wedding photographers.

Dave Moss: [00:01:52] Yep.

Christine Tremoulet: [00:01:52] So let’s talk for just a second about that. Tell me a little bit about your wedding photography business and what you and Abby do.

Dave Moss: [00:01:58] Yeah. So we’ve been shooting weddings together for, 2020 will be our 11th year shooting together. We shoot mostly local weddings. I say local, as the, the mountains, which are about 45 minutes West from here. So Banff National Park and Lake Louise and places like that have been . They’re our main, main focus, since about three years into our business where we realized that we both love it out there.

We love outdoor weddings. We love being able to take couples on hikes and do things like that. We do occasional weddings in the city and occasional weddings, other places around the world. But most of our focus is on a mountain weddings. And so we love it. But, it takes a lot of time and energy. And because of the aforementioned climate differences that we have, half of our year was usually either quiet or very cold for weddings, and so that’s where we branched off into. I branched off into coaching and Abby has her own other, a side business as well. I would say side business are becoming very quickly becoming our main, main businesses.

Christine Tremoulet: [00:02:59] I’d say at this point you’re , essentially, it’s almost like you have one business 50% of the year and one business the other 50% of the year in a, well, it’s not necessarily divided in the year like that, but they’re almost 50/50 at this point, aren’t they?

Dave Moss: [00:03:15] Yeah, I definitely do like all of my speaker circuit stuff in the winter time, which is nice. But then I coach year round, so I have, I have that going on. We actually slowed our wedding business down this year, and we’re only doing, between 10 and 15 weddings just because. Coaching has gotten so busy for me and Abby’s business has gotten so busy for her, and we wanted to make sure we had enough time to dedicate to it because in the past when we were shooting, you know, 25 30 weddings, mostly through the summer, we wouldn’t have been able to handle this workload as well.

Christine Tremoulet: [00:03:42] Right. Handle your other clients.

And let’s go into that because, so you guys are both doing weddings. So how, why, why did you add coaching on, you know, you had, you had a full schedule, you had a full roster of wedding clients. What led you into doing coaching?

Dave Moss: [00:04:00] It’s something that I feel like I was already doing anyways. Unintentionally, I’ve always been the kind of person that whenever somebody has a question, I’m, I tried my best to answer it. I am a constant researcher. I read so many business books and blogs and podcasts and everything else like that, that it was already there.

And, also about. Math wise, two and a half years ago now, I guess. yeah, two and a half years I took a life coaching training course. I had met a couple of life coaches and it seems super, super interesting and I wanted to have more tools for my own life, but also just more tools to be able to, to handle the conversations I was having with people and to be able to help out.

And it just felt like a good fit. So I took a nine month life coach training program and loved it and decided that I wanted to also do that. And I also like wedding photography is great, but it can be tough on the body. So as I get older, it was just the idea of like, I’m not going to be able to retire at 55 as a wedding photographer.
I mean, I could, there’s people out there who are still shooting weddings at that age and good on them, but it’s definitely not what I wanted to be doing. And so I was thinking about alternate plans and what else I could do and, and teaching and education definitely seemed like the way for me to go, but I didn’t want to follow the traditional photography teaching and education.

Method where it’s either, you know, online courses or, or, you know, w 10 person workshops, things like that. I really wanted to have a more one-on-one approach, and so coaching just seemed like the right way to go for that.

Christine Tremoulet: [00:05:36] And now I called you a business coach in the opening, but you really have a longer term. What is it that you refer to your coaching as.

Dave Moss: [00:05:47] Yeah, so the, the mouthful term that I refer to myself as is a business performance and life design coach. Because so much of what is holding us back in business is usually an aspect of our lives. And so that’s where my life coach training comes into it with, with my business coaching is oftentimes there are personal issues, emotional issues, limiting beliefs, mental blocks, things like that, that come from our life.

That ended up. Affecting our business. And so the business coaching is people that’s, that’s the hook, you know, that’s why people come to me cause they want more clients or they want to market into a new way or they just want some help with some systematization or things like that. And then the life coaching is kind of the added bonus that a lot of people end up getting out of it that they weren’t initially expecting or, or, or initially coming to me for.

It’s just kind of, it’s, I think, I think it’s my secret sauce, you know, as, as much as, as those things. Do or don’t exist, but my, my thing that differentiates me from, from other coaches, I think is definitely the life coaching part of it.

Christine Tremoulet: [00:06:48] well, and that’s probably why you and I have – full disclaimer. I’ve been your coach as well.

Dave Moss: [00:06:57] Yup. I believe in practicing what you preach. If I’m going to be a coach, I need to have one.

Christine Tremoulet: [00:07:01] And I’m, and I feel like that is a lot of, probably. Why? what drew you to me and why we work well together is because we do both see that. So similarly in, I also find that when I’m working with people, yes, they might be having problems selling, but when we did, we really dig in. It’s very often a mindset issue.

Something like that is what’s standing in their way. Getting into sales more than, more than anything else.
Noise: [00:07:35] Although I, I

Christine Tremoulet: [00:07:36] wouldn’t say you, even in your case, your case was special though. I feel like it was also just sorting out what do I want to do. And I love you and Abby are in a different situations.
So many of us, like when we’re looking at what’s next in our business, we’re just looking at ourselves. But you also had to keep in mind. Thank you. And Abby is a couple had to keep in mind like what was the next step for both of

Noise: [00:08:02] you?

Dave Moss: [00:08:04] Yeah. It was an individual divergence, both moving into our own sole businesses, but also maintaining the business that we run together as wedding photographers. Yeah.

Christine Tremoulet: [00:08:15] Was it hard like deciding when, when, when was the right time for that.

Dave Moss: [00:08:22] no, it definitely felt like a natural progression. We still love weddings, but we just weren’t loving shooting 30 weddings a year anymore. It was really starting to take a toll on us, especially in the, in the fall when it was crazy editing season. And. We weren’t seeing friends and family as much.

And so we knew that we needed to make a bit of a change. And so, my wife is very, very decisive. So she just said, by the end of 2020, I want to make sure that we have our other businesses in place so that we can shoot less weddings. And so this was at the beginning of. The end of 2018 she said this, and so we had enough lead time and I just sort of took the ball and ran with it and built my coaching business really, really hard over the last year, to the point now where we were able to only take on 10 weddings for this year, which was was a nice

Christine Tremoulet: [00:09:09] Right. That’s nice. That gives you time like that and yeah, this goes to the, to the core of the show, like what success is changes for everyone over time. It might change based on your partner, you know, if you’re married or have a life partner, whatever the case is, like taking into those things into account really are part of your success.

Yeah. Success doesn’t have to just look one way,

Dave Moss: [00:09:40] Yeah, totally. I’ve, and I’ve always felt that. I mean, for me, success has always just been framed by. Ownership over my time. And I think that Abby feels very similarly, and we were losing control of our time and our photography business. So it became time to, to reframe what we were doing, and, and come up with a way to get our

Noise: [00:09:59] So

Christine Tremoulet: [00:10:00] that interesting thing because so many of us measure success by money. Yay. But I hadn’t tell. Tell me more about that. .

Dave Moss: [00:10:09] Well, I think, yeah, I mean, Thai time for me is a finite resource, and so I want to be able to spend that as much as, as wisely as possible. Whereas like to me, money is, it’s, it’s an unattainable. It’s an unfillable. Well, right. Like you could have. A good living. They say, you know, people’s general happiness doesn’t change after they make $75,000 us a year, and so I could have $100 billion and be a Jeff Bezos or bill Gates, but is it actually going to make my life any better?

I mean, sure. Probably. Yeah. If I had $100 million, things would be great. But I didn’t want money to be the thing that defined my success or diff, or was my motivation just because it wasn’t a, it’s an unfillable. Well, I, you know, I, I want enough money to, to take care of my family and to, you know, maybe go on trips every now and again or feed my hobbies or stuff like that, but I could work a hundred hours a week in order to do that.

And then what? How rich is my life? How rich are the relationships that I have in my life? And so it always became, to me, success to be about control of my time, to be able to, you know, my, our dog got knee surgery last week and to be able to take a couple of days off just to spend that time with him and not feel inconvenienced by having to carry him up and down the stairs or do anything else like that.

Like that’s important to me. I don’t, I don’t need to, I’m not beholden to anybody. When it comes to making those decisions. And so that was always what success

Noise: [00:11:35] Okay. Love

Christine Tremoulet: [00:11:36] that so much because you know, I look at my own life and I think about hobbies and things, things that I say that I want to do. Like I love to knit. So I would like to spend more time knitting, but I don’t always structure my wife so that I can do that and yeah.

Dave Moss: [00:11:55] Yeah. I have more blocks of my block calendar for non-work activities than I do for work activities, and that’s by design to do that. I could, I could probably be busier and make more money, but it wouldn’t make me any happier and I wouldn’t feel any more successful. I’d probably be more stressed early

Christine Tremoulet: [00:12:11] It’s a such a fantastic way to look at it, I think. and to find what works for you because.

You know, that doesn’t work for everybody. I get that. Like for some people it really is what money is what makes me feel successful. And that’s great too. But you know, I liked that, that turn on it. which sort of goes into how it’s something I’ve heard you say before that you know about silver bullets in business.

And I feel like I, you know, I want to hear what you have to say about that. Like, are there silver bullets for somebody’s business? Is there one way to get something

Noise: [00:12:50] accomplished?

Dave Moss: [00:12:52] No, absolutely not. There is not one way to get anything accomplished. Everybody’s business is their own and, and just like success and how everybody frames success in their own way. I think everybody works in their business or their own way. Like there’s, there’s no. You can’t just buy something online that says, do business this way and you will be successful.

I think the only, the only thing that works on everybody’s business is just hard work. but beyond that, like I’m not a phone person. So you know, for someone to say that what made our business successful was picking up the phone and calling all of our clients. That would never make my business successful cause I would have a damn panic attack every time I had to pick up that phone to do a cold call to a, you know, an inquiry that came in.

But for, there’s some people out there where like, that’s a game changer for them. And so I think there’s a, there’s a million different ways of running your business successfully, and there’s a million different ways of running your business poorly. And it’s all a matter of . Molding your business to you and your life, and the things that bring you energy in the end to turn away the things that drain your energy.

Because realistically, that’s the only way that you’re going to be successful if you try to follow someone else’s methodology. Some things might work, but, but not all things. And I realized that early on, you know, going to a lot of conferences as, as an attendee, that my goal. At first was, you know, I would, I would hear somebody speak and be like, okay, that’s what, that’s what worked for them.

Let’s go home and completely change our business. And it was awful. And so as time went on, I realized take one thing from every talk that resonates with all of me. And that’s the thing that will, will help us in our business. And so we were just always adding one thing here and one thing there. And that’s ultimately what led to us, you know, running an 11 year business that’s been very successful to us was not.

Constantly trying to follow a another person’s model or idea for success, but really, really following our own

Christine Tremoulet: [00:14:47] Sometimes I find it interesting when I hear other speakers, because I’ve attended a lot of conferences over the years as well, and sometimes . The takeaway that I might get might be that I absolutely don’t want to do what they’re doing. Like it’s not even always, Oh, that’s great. That’s a great idea. I’m going to go revamp my business now and incorporate that.

Sometimes it’s like you said, you know, Oh, I don’t want to, for me it’s not, I’m okay to get the phone and talking to somebody, but I don’t want to be so tethered to my email that I have to respond to an inquiry within 30 seconds of it coming in.

Dave Moss: [00:15:28] The Jack.

Christine Tremoulet: [00:15:29] what if I’m with another client like so I know for some people they do that and that works amazing for them and their clients love that.

But for me, hearing other people say that this works great for me, made me go. Oh, I don’t want to do that. I don’t want to train my clients that I’m on call 24 seven. At the time I was, I was focused on doing boudoir photography full time, and I’m like, no one has a booed wire emergency. And no one’s ever called me up and said, I have to have the pictures today.

So, I’ve never had that need. I’ve never had a need where the, responding to an inquiry can’t wait 24 hours. And for me personally, I feel that if, if they reach out to me and contact me, and by the time I contact them three hours later, they’ve already booked someone else. Well, they weren’t. They weren’t

Dave Moss: [00:16:23] They weren’t your

Christine Tremoulet: [00:16:24] and that’s okay.

And I’ve always felt okay with that and been able to release them like, Oh, well, I would’ve loved to have worked with them, but no. Well that, you know, my happiness matters more than I’m not living for the chime of my phone going, I don’t even have a word on my phone when I get email. I, I don’t know that an email has come in until I go and check it.

So I didn’t want to be beholding to that.

Oh, I love your phrase, and I mean, a lot of your coaching work is themed around the outdoors and hiking, but you know how you say like there’s no silver bullet, like you have to hike your own hike. I love that. That whole concept.

Dave Moss: [00:17:11] Yeah. I mean, it’s a through hiking term. It’s the idea that no matter what somebody else is doing, they’re going to hike their hike and you have to hike yours. If you want to carry 80 pounds of gear on your back. If that’s what makes you happy, then great. If the other person wants to go ultra light, then great. If you want to eat Mars bars instead of protein bars, great. You do, you do whatever you have to do in order to just. Put one foot in front of the other and keep moving forward and just hike your own hike because everybody’s going to enjoy it for a different way.

You know, like I read the book North last year, which was a Scott Jurek, he’s a long distance runner, and he wanted to break the Appalachian trail speed record and there were so many other hikers who were like, Oh, well you’re missing the point of the Appalachian trail. You know, it’s about going slow and enjoying the views, and it’s like it wasn’t for him. The, the point for him was to push himself and try something and break a record and, and that’s okay.

There’s nothing wrong with that at all. Just like you were saying earlier, there’s nothing wrong with someone.

Someone’s idea of success being money, like I’m not, I’m not here to tell anybody that what they’re doing is, is right or wrong. Everybody’s got to hike their own hike, and it’s just a matter of knowing what that is and putting one foot in front of the

Christine Tremoulet: [00:18:21] All right. I feel like a lot of times it’s so tempting to compare. Money or volume, like, Oh they’ve got this many clients and I only have this many clients. I see this a lot. And the years of talking with um, a lot of us tend to actually talk about our business by the number of clients we have.

So we don’t necessarily, I mean, cause you know, cause we were all raised and taught, don’t talk about money.

That’s not polite. So that’s what we’re always taught. So we don’t say, Oh, I’ve got. $200,000 worth of weddings booked this year. We say, Oh, I have, you know, 25 weddings booked this year. Okay. Or I have 10 weddings, but this year.

Dave Moss: [00:19:03] Or I have 60 weddings book this year, but you don’t know that they’re all $250

Christine Tremoulet: [00:19:07] Or that they’re all elopements and maybe just only two hours each. Because if I talked to somebody once who actually told me that they did 50 weddings in a year, and I think I almost had a panic attack, right. As they said it, but then they explained to me and I said, Oh, in my market there’s a lot of elopements.

And so 25 of those were couples of loping and there was no shorter day. You know, there were weekdays and shorter weddings.

Just be careful what, what measure you’re using and making sure that’s the right measure for you, I think is the biggest advice I can give to anybody listening about this.

Dave Moss: [00:19:48] I mean, that’s, that’s, that’s all that really matters is just listen to your own heart. And, you know, take advice with a large grain of salt. it’s one of the things I often say to my clients is, as a coach is like, I’m not here to give you advice. You already know all the answers. I’m just here to help you find it.

But every now and again, you can take advice from other people, but their success doesn’t define your success. And I think that. You know, survivorship bias is a thing that exists inside of any creative industry or any business at all, where it’s like, this person had success in this way, so it must be the way to do it.

But what you don’t realize is that a hundred or a thousand other people try that the exact same way and it didn’t work for them because it wasn’t right for them, or that it just didn’t work. So yeah, you really.

Christine Tremoulet: [00:20:31] true. I see things that people advise that they’ve only tested on themselves. And so people will say, Oh my God, you had some success. How much how’d you do that? And someone else tries to emulate what they did and it just falls flat for anyone else. It was just a matter of they had the right personality. It was the right time in the right market.

Yeah, it’s, I, I think that’s why a lot of times when I give people advice, I say, you know, take this, but find the way that works for you. Or as you say, hike your own hike because, or, you know, take things that you hear and let it marinade. Like, you know what, where’s my piece in that?

Dave Moss: [00:21:22] Yeah, that’s, I mean, that’s huge. Like one of the things that I always loved doing, early days, or is, a conference that’s in Vancouver, which is about a 12 to 14 hour drive West of us. And we would go every year and then we would drive home and we had a rule where it’s like, we couldn’t talk about what we learned until we passed the Cocahalla.

So it’s like we had to have like five hours of driving before we could start talking about it because just letting it sit. For a little bit makes you think about it in a different way. It’s like, because it’s really easy to get hyped in a conference or in a workshop and someone’s like, this is work for me, and the energy’s up, and you’re like, Oh yeah, I want that.

Absolutely. But then, you know, you had to take some time with it and it’s like, Oh, I do want that, but maybe not in that way. And so like, give, give, give yourself a little time to, to think about it instead of just changing instantly.

Christine Tremoulet: [00:22:12] will um, over the years, especially in the earliest years of my business, attending workshops and attending conferences was very formative, very, very impactful on my business and in a super positive Um. And most of the times it was the speakers. But you know, sometimes it’s also even the, the hallway conversations and everything else.

I think conferences and workshops and things are really important to get out to, if you can, to learn to see what other people are doing to get out of your bubble.

But also you have to distill it, be like, okay, that was cool. I liked that they’re doing that, but that’s not my personality You have to be sort of self-aware.

What’s your personality type? Then how do you function? Which leads me into asking about coaching, you know, how do you see how coaching has helped you or helps other people, the people that you’ve coached, cause you’ve had a number of coaching clients, like how do you think coaching helps people in their business?

Dave Moss: [00:23:23] I mean, it’s realistically, it’s the game changer. You know, I think that the mentoring or coaching or, or, or anything else like that is like, it’s really the thing that makes the difference. And I often use the, the analogy that. when I’m trying to explain what, what business coaching is or life coaching is to people, it’s like, it’s easiest to say.

It’s like, okay, well, you know, an NBA team or an NFL team or an NHL team, you know, it was professional hockey players. They know all the rules. They know all the plays, they know how to play the game. They’re at the peak performance that they’re at, but they still have a coach. They still have a coach that sees the things in them and the sees the things that they’re doing that they don’t see.

And can help them fix those things or improve those things or whatever. You know, like. If those people need a coach, what makes it makes us think that we don’t need those things. And not everybody needs a coach. I’m not here to shit on people, but you know, it’s, it’s the easiest way to explain what it is, is they see your blind spots that you may not see.

And that, you know, I don’t know how many people I’ve talked to who have said, you know, I’ve been doing it this way for five years, and all of a sudden it’s not working. What am I doing wrong? And when I have them break it down for me. You know what’s not working is very, very obvious, but it’s hard for them to see it because they’ve just been in it for so long that they don’t get to take that 30,000 foot view and say, Oh, this is where the gaps are.
So having somebody else look at your life or look at your business or look at both, is

Christine Tremoulet: [00:24:59] Okay. The other thing I, I’ve spotted is you’ve been doing something a certain way for so long um, it’s, it can be hard to let go of that thing.

Yeah. Hard to release it and having somebody to help you see like, Oh, if you, even if you like. Tweak this one thing, cause a lot of times you’re using the sports analogy.

That’s what a coach does for a baseball player or hockey player. Sometimes it’s as simple as, you know, if you moved your right foot a different way, you’d be more powerful in that move.

And it’s not even necessarily a huge thing, but a little thing can sometimes make a huge transformation.

Dave Moss: [00:25:44] Yeah, a little habit change can be huge. Or like you were talking about where it’s like, you know, they, they don’t want to change it cause they’ve been doing it so long, like sunk cost fallacy people, people still believe that the, the wedding wire is going to give them everything because it used to and they’ve put so much money in it that they don’t want to move away.

And this is by no means an admonishment to the Wedding Wire just happened to be the one that pops to the top of my head. But. The idea that because they’ve spent a time or money or effort doing it this way, that they shouldn’t change it because of the cost that they’ve put into it like that can, that can be really, really detrimental for a business because the world is constantly changing and you need to change with it and your changing, but all of a sudden you’re not, you know, your business isn’t changing along with you.

Christine Tremoulet: [00:26:29] So sometimes, you know, instead of saying an outside force, like sometimes it might be, I spent thousands of dollars having my website built and I don’t want to change it, you know, things like that. Or I spent X amount on my logo.

Yeah. Not that your website or your logo is necessarily your whole business, but let’s say it looks really dated and like you designed it 15 years ago, it might be something that needs to change, like maybe, maybe you have a logo that’s one style in your business as a completely different style. Now.

Dave Moss: [00:27:10] Yeah. I think it gets even more interesting when it’s things like, now you have a baby, or now maybe you had a divorce and you feel a little bit jaded around weddings, but I’ve been doing this this for so long that I don’t want to change it. Like your life needs to be to be readapted to your business or vice versa.

And you have the same sunk cost fallacy there. So it can be really, really interesting when somebody has a baby and it’s like, okay, well, you know, your hours are different now. Your life is different now, so we need to mold your business to play along with that. So your marketing stream and your sales stream have to change.

You know, maybe it’s time to really, really invest into a CRM and automate the heck out of your business. Or, you know, maybe if you, you’ve got divorced and you don’t love the idea of weddings and they’re completely draining to you, great. Let’s switch to commercial photography, or let’s switch to something else.

Like, you don’t, just because you’ve been a wedding photographer for so long, it doesn’t mean that you are a wedding photographer. You can be just a photographer or something else, or just because you have been doing, you know. Six touch point meetings with all of your clients for your entire business, where you’ve got a newborn now.
So that’s not something that you can do. So maybe we switch it to zoom or maybe you just send out more email tips.

And it’s really interesting when, when people miss those parts, and that’s why I think for me, the life design portion is such a huge factor in it because people are often trying to cram their business into their lives rather than molded

Noise: [00:28:37] and

Christine Tremoulet: [00:28:38] you know, I fit a test though too. When you switch genres how hard that can be. Like.

Dave Moss: [00:28:45] Oh, it’s intensely

Christine Tremoulet: [00:28:46] I like switching from predominantly weddings to predominantly boudoir all of a sudden I was like, but wait, I’m a wa. I am a wedding photographer. No, I am Christine. Wedding photography was the work that I did, but that, yeah, I can say that today in hindsight, but this is a transition that happened nine years ago, so it’s a lot easier to say than it was in the moment.

Dave Moss: [00:29:12] So let me, let me ask you the question then. At that point in time, if you had external help, you may have, I don’t know, but if you had external help, like a coach or a mentor who was helping you through that transition, do you think

Christine Tremoulet: [00:29:23] Oh, I did have a coach then. That is how I made it through the transition, but I still remember in having moments where I was like. It’s like I was just so used to identify as a wedding photographer that, and that was what all of my friends were. So my whole social circle was also wedding photographers. So it was just, it was a little hard, but…

Dave Moss: [00:29:47] Yeah. That’s why for psychological reasons, I tell photographers all the time, start following other types of photographers, whether they’re street photographers or concert photographers or documentary photographers or whatever. Like don’t just have your whole feed. Be wedding photography because psychologically for me, when I made that change, I just started thinking of myself as a photographer and not as a label photographer, and it became a lot easier to to try other things or move in different ways.

But yeah, I can totally see how that psychology would be tough. I struggled for years just thinking that I wasn’t even a photographer. Like think.

Christine Tremoulet: [00:30:25] Well, that’s a, that’s a big deal for some people because they’re like, Oh, you know, this goes into the success thing. I’m not making X, or I’m not booking Y. And so you can hear people like sort of hedge it, like, yeah, I mean, yeah, I’m, I mean. I’ve started photographing weddings. I only have 10 this year, and I’m like, okay, Hey. Then you’re doing it … like you’re in it. Good!

Dave Moss: [00:30:51] but I mean, even for the people who are successful, like we were booking full years of weddings multiple years in a row, and I still didn’t feel like a photographer. I had intense imposter syndrome being like, well, no, you know, my wife’s the photographer. I just, I just there to help her and things like that.
And it’s, you know, we’re, we’re, we’re.

Christine Tremoulet: [00:31:08] Was she a photographer

Dave Moss: [00:31:09] We kind of started around the same time, but when we started our business, it started under her name because I still had a full time engineering job. but for me, like that was just imposter syndrome is something that I’ve had my entire life and it just reared its ugly head again in photography.

And it wasn’t until I took my life coaching course and was confronted with that and, and worked with a coach at the time to deal with that, that I realized, you know, and this was. Seven years into our business. I was still facing that. That challenge and yeah, it gets, it can be tough. It’s tough doing anything as a human, and when you add in, you know, creativity in a business and, and putting, putting everything on the line behind it, it, it adds a lot of stress.

A lot of pressure.

Christine Tremoulet: [00:31:53] I think another big stress point for people is we’re creatives and we’re creating and selling what we are creating. . And so that it becomes emotionally hard to sell your creativity because when somebody turns down buying it, you feel like they’re turning down you as a person, not the service that you provide.

Dave Moss: [00:32:23] Yeah. You’re, you are personally invested in all of that because it’s your creativity. It’s your, it’s your baby really. This is your creation and they don’t want anything to do with it. And it’s hard to not take that personally.

Christine Tremoulet: [00:32:36] Right. I told somebody that I was trying to explain to somebody that you almost have to separate it, right? Like they’re saying no to a service. They are not saying no to you as a person, but you almost start to feel like you have a split personality, I guess, in a way. But I do a lot of times. That’s my suggestion for people is you, you look at it as they’re saying business. They’re not saying no to me.

Noise: [00:33:02] Yeah.

Christine Tremoulet: [00:33:03] Um, but like what, what would you tell somebody if they were struggling with that?

Dave Moss: [00:33:08] Mmm. Well, if, if, if I was on a call with somebody who was struggling with that, the first thing that I would, I would ask them is, is that true? Are they turning you down or, is it something else? And then I would let them talk there. Like I said, I don’t want to give them advice. They already, they already know that that’s not true, and so they need to come to it in, in their own way.

Because as we’ve sort of the theme for this conversation, everybody’s life is different. Everybody’s business is different. Everybody’s version of success is different. So everybody’s methodology of, of coming to terms with that reality is going to be different because our perception is our reality. So it would definitely just be a conversation where I asked them questions and they come to their own realization on that because I can’t tell.
I can’t say, well, that’s not true because you’re not going to believe me because you feel it. It’s 100% true for you. That is your reality. So yeah, it’s, it’s a little more complicated than just saying, well, this is how it is because. Who knows what that person’s life has been to lead up to that belief.

Cause there’s definitely photographers out there who never feel that, you know, someone says no to their service and they’re like, cool. And they just move on. Uh, but they’re devastating. So.

Christine Tremoulet: [00:34:24] The comment about separating the two was actually not to a photographer. It wasn’t a coaching client, so it wasn’t that, like you said, that situation where I was letting them get to it themselves. It was talking to somebody outside the photo industry and trying to explain to them like, well, trying to explain to them they had ghosted a photographer and I was like, you know, it’s actually really hard.

It’s hard for us because we feel like. We’re being turned down. It’s just an interesting moment when you’re like, Hey, I might explain to you that when you turn, when you just go away as a photographer, I’m hurt because I feel like you’re turning down my art and my creativity and me as an individual and everything else.

One of the things I wanted to ask you about so. Over the past. I’m not sure when it started. You’ve done a big survey and I want to hear about your survey. So when did that

Dave Moss: [00:35:20] Um, wait, did that start? I think at the end of, hang on, I’m gonna, I’m gonna. I’m going to check for the my first email just because then I can really tell you exactly when it’s.

Christine Tremoulet: [00:35:31] But I’d love, I feel like this is the engineer’s side of you showing up that you are. You’re such an analytical person, so wanting to survey and you surveyed photog predominantly wedding photographers

Dave Moss: [00:35:44] any photographer, but wedding photography was definitely the market that I hit the most, just because it’s the, the industry that I was in. So I sent out the first questionnaire in October of 2017

Christine Tremoulet: [00:35:59] Wow. I didn’t realize, I thought it was at, that just started in 2019.

Dave Moss: [00:36:03] years, years ago. it really molded in 2018 after I read Tim Ferriss’s book, Tribe of Mentors, because I loved some of the questions that he asked. But yeah, since 2017 I have had this 20 questions thing that I would send out to photographers, and it initially started because of that analytical engineer mind of mine where I wanted to understand how other people’s businesses worked so that I could better understand.

Our business and, and what was working for other people and, and why. So I came up with this list of 20 questions. That has changed a lot over the years. It’s been mostly stable for about the last year. but in the first sort of two years of it, it, those questions changed. It. Originally it was 11 questions and it was 15, and then eventually came to 20.

but yeah, I would ask all sorts of different questions like. How do you define success in your life and in your business? Or how do you practice as a creative person, or what type of marketing has worked best for you and your business and all sorts of different types of things. And, and just for the first two years of it, just collected that data and had a huge spreadsheet and a bunch of Google docs with my favorite answers and things.

And then eventually some friends of ours were like, you need to do something with that. And so they asked me to speak at their, their small little, kind of workshop slash conference kind of thing. And so I wrote a talk for that. And that’s moved into now the, the talks that I’m giving at WPPI and other places over this winter is all centered around that questionnaire project and the lessons that I’ve learned and the data that I’ve pulled from that.

Christine Tremoulet: [00:37:36] In the end, how many people did you end up

Dave Moss: [00:37:38] I sent it, I’ve sent it out to over 600 people and I’ve only got 184 responses, which is perfectly fine. The fact that 184 people have taken the time to fill out this questionnaire because it’s not, I mean, it can be short if you have one word answers for everything, but a lot of people put a lot of care and attention into it.

You know, I’ve gotten some really amazing essay answers from, from people, so. I mean 184 questions answers from, I’ve got people from Africa, India, China, Australia, all over the States and Canada, all over Europe, South America, so really all over the place. and, and people who have been in business for six months and people who have been in business for 30 years. So it’s, it’s a really wide, wide range of, of, of information that I’ve gotten back.

Christine Tremoulet: [00:38:23] So I would love if you could share with us high level, I know this is your, you know, this is, as you mentioned, this is what you’re speaking about at WPPI this year. So if people are interested, they can attend your masterclass and learn deep what you’ve learned. But are there some high level insights that you can share with us.

Dave Moss: [00:38:48] Yeah. I think w without giving it all away, there’s definitely a, there’s definitely some, some things that I can talk about that I don’t, I don’t mind. the first being that, we’re all really, really hard on ourselves. two of my favorite questions that I got the answers for, asked one question, what are three adjectives people you’re your best friends would use to describe you?

And then what’s one adjective adjective you would use to describe yourself? And I asked them very specifically in that order thinking that, okay, you know, if, if, if they’re putting kind words down from their friends,

Noise: [00:39:21] Okay.

Dave Moss: [00:39:21] will that affect the word that they use for themselves? And. People were really critical on themselves, but really kind and how they S they believe that their friends and family would view them.

And it just, it re, um, this is by no, no means groundbreaking psychological research, but it definitely reinforced to me that we are our harshest critics. and everybody you talk to, regardless of how long they’ve been in business or where they are, or what they do, is probably their harshest critic. So it’s, it can be really nice to, to give each other grace, but also in the same time, I really implore everyone to give themselves a little bit of grace.
You know, if regardless of how busy you are or how much money you’re charging, you’re doing it. That’s how they’re really matters. You know, you’re, you’re, you’re out there putting the work in and, and trying to make this dream come true. And so. Give yourself a little grace and be kind to yourself. what else?

What else can I talk about? The one thing that blows me away all the time, I think I sent you this stat a couple of weeks ago. you know, I asked, I straight up stole this question from Tim Ferris. it was, it was such a great question that I just had to take it from him. I tried to get in contact with them to say I was using it, but.
That guy’s probably got 500,000 emails a day. but I asked the question, you know, what hard thing are you not doing enough? and with a little bit of wiggle room, if you count, you know, blogging or social media in this, 92% of people said that they weren’t marketing enough or at all. depending upon the, the, the way they answered that question.

And it really, really floored me because it means, you know. For everybody out there who’s struggling to get clients. Well, the way you get clients is by marketing, and there’s a million different ways to market. It doesn’t have to be going to wedding fairs and it doesn’t have to be buying ad space, and it doesn’t like, there’s so many different ways to market, but if 92% of your competition isn’t marketing, that’s a really easy way to go and fill your roster of clients, is to really think about your marketing.

Christine Tremoulet: [00:41:21] That one blew my mind because it just shows like how much room and you hear so often I’m in a crowded market or my market won’t buy, or I live. Even people that say like, I live in a remote place, but nobody else is marketing. So I was just like, wow, that makes so much room for the, for the people that are willing to step out and like really make that a priority in their business.

Dave Moss: [00:41:56] Yeah, and just much like we were talking about earlier, find the type of marketing that works for you because the only way to get into the habit of marketing a lot. Is to market in a way that has no resistance or little resistance to you as a person. So whatever that is, whether it’s writing content for your website SEO, or whether it’s rubbing elbows with vendors and venues, what there’s so many different ways that you can market your business.

Pick three because one’s never enough. Pick three. And just do those things and form a habit and just, just do it. And I mean, I’m not going to say that that’s a magic bullet because I don’t believe in them, but it will definitely help you get more inquiries into your inbox. There are a number of other things that will come between that and a sale, but number one, just start putting yourself out there more and, and with

Christine Tremoulet: [00:42:47] Well, I’ve always said, um, about blogging, when, when people ask me, they’re like, Oh, but I’m not that good at SEO. And my response to that always is, well, you know, the blog posts that Google will never index. That’s the one you never write. And it’s sort of the same thing. Like the, the marketing that will never work for you is.

The marketing that you don’t do. Like if you, if you do no marketing, no one will even know that you exist. If you’re not willing to talk about yourself, why should anyone

Noise: [00:43:19] else

Dave Moss: [00:43:20] Yup. Yeah, I hear that so often of, Oh, I just really don’t want to self promote. I don’t like talking about myself. Things like that. And it’s like, well, guess what? You’re your business, you are the thing that is being sold. Your service relies on you, unless you have associate photographers or things like that.
So. You need to talk about yourself, but find a way that it can be, you can be comfortable doing it. You know, whether it’s just showing off your life through Insta stories that works for some people, or whether it’s, you know, if you’re, if you love to bake cookies, well bake cookies and then go around to all the vendors and venues in your area and bring them some homemade cookies and just say, Hey, just thought I’d stop in and say hello and bring you some cookies.

Like, it doesn’t have to be, you don’t need to stand on a soapbox and say, look at me. I’m amazing. But you do have to put yourself out there in, in whatever way you’re comfortable with.

Christine Tremoulet: [00:44:09] I think that’s the big resistance is I don’t want to seem salesy.

Dave Moss: [00:44:15] Yeah. Nobody wants to seem salesy and not even used. Car salesman want to seem salesy. Everybody wants to seem personable and, and, and do that. But sales doesn’t have to be, I mean, it’s a four letter word, but it doesn’t have to be a four letter word. Sales is important.

Noise: [00:44:32] Sales

Christine Tremoulet: [00:44:33] is important. It’s the foundation of your life. That’s it. That’s what your business is.

Dave Moss: [00:44:37] Yeah.

Christine Tremoulet: [00:44:38] If you are not selling. Then … I wish I could remember who I heard say this many years ago. I went to imaging. So if you’re listening, if you’re the person that said this in your talk at imaging, it was a speaker on stage.

If you were the person that said this, the imaging, please reach out to me and let me know because it changed my my life. But they were like, if you are not selling, you have an expensive hobby.

Dave Moss: [00:45:05] Yeah.

Christine Tremoulet: [00:45:07] And any. Then when I know that it was a man, I, I for the life of me cannot figure out who it was. I’ve tried to look up speakers and everything else to find them, but he was like, that hobby definition isn’t mine.

That happy definition is the IRS. So the internal revenue service, for those of us in the United States, if you are not making a profit, your business is not a business as a hobby and like that change. Everything. For me as far as my perception of selling, okay, if I want to be a business, I must do this.

It’s not a choice.

Dave Moss: [00:45:44] not just a little bit like 80% of your time should be taken up with sales and marketing activities, and then 20% of your time is taken up with actually doing the job. Because if you look at successful businesses, it’s 80 20 or 90 10 it’s not, it’s not like 50 50 you need to be out there marketing and building sales and working on your sales funnel and understanding customer service and helping people.

By what you’re putting out there, because if you’re not doing that, then you’re not going to be actually doing the thing you got into this to do, which is take pictures. So

Christine Tremoulet: [00:46:19] That’s hard because get into those because we want to take photos and, um, for some people. Bless their hearts. I don’t understand. I don’t like editing photos. I know, and that’s fine. I mean, some people love editing photos though too, so they get into it for these things. Like I have such an appreciation for people, especially people that can do a lot of editing and you know, they have a vision of what a photo should be and they can create it as through both taking the photo and through editing it.

I have so much respect for that, but that’s not my joy.

Dave Moss: [00:46:54] Yes. Absolutely. I would say if you want to edit a lot of photos, that’s easy marketing cause there’s a lot of people out there who don’t want to edit their photos.

Christine Tremoulet: [00:47:08] Right. Yeah. I mean, that’s really, and I know people that have started at companies that, that really was part part of how they got their start, because that’s what they loved. Um, and so they were like, Oh, wait, there’s people like Christine who will gladly hire me. I mean, I feel like, success, looking at your business, and, um.

Looking for your own holes, your own pitfalls, your own stumbling blocks can be really important. And speaking of editing photos, I knew from the start that that was, I taught me, I talk about this all the time. I feel like I knew from the start that was one of mine, that the editing was going to be my own downfall.

So I actually have worked with an editor pretty much my entire photography career. I’ve had somebody that edits my photos for me.

Because that’s what it takes to get them out the door.

Dave Moss: [00:48:02] Yeah, and that’s great. No, like if you, if you don’t have the time or money or inclination to get a coach, at least do a SWOT analysis on your business. That’s SW OT for those listening, which is your strengths, your weaknesses, your opportunities. And I always forget the T. What is the T strengths, weaknesses, opportunities, and threats.

But yeah, do it, do a breakdown of what’s working for you and what’s not working for you in you and in your business. And if you know, if is is a bottleneck. Then maybe take on an extra couple of shoots and use that money to pay for an editor because you’re going to get all that time back that you’re not editing anymore.

So on and so forth. There’s a lot of different places that people struggle in their businesses, but you can outsource a lot of it if you don’t like marketing, but you want to have blog, blog posts. You can pay people to write your blog posts for you or to handle your social media or to. Run your Facebook ads like you don’t ha, you don’t have to be doing this stuff yourself, but it needs to exist in your business.

Christine Tremoulet: [00:49:05] Yeah. It doesn’t always even have to be take on extra work. In my case, I figured out how much extra that would cost and I just, it was not going to be a large price jump, so I just bumped my prices up a bit so that I could cover it because what I realized through observation. And watching other people was that I would see people who would say, Oh, I’m, I’m running a week behind on delivering this, so I’m going to give my client X number of extra album spreads.

And I was like, okay. And they felt okay with that because in in your mind, like those album spreads are sort of free or they don’t really cost a lot. But I was like, okay, wait, I already am not great at editing. So adding a few more albums spreads is also probably not in my own best interest from that perspective.

But then I’m actually also paying for the album spreads. So I sort of worked out like, well, what do I charge for an album spread. Okay. If I might give people five extra albums, Fred’s, I may as well pay an editor just to get the album the. The editing work done on time so that my clients are happier and yeah, just finding that for me.
I knew from the day I started my business, that was going to be my struggle, was the editing portion of, of the photography work for other people. That’s not the struggle of all of them. The struggle is that the start of the client journey and it’s the marketing, so find somebody that can help you with that.

Or find somebody that can help you with the writing. Find somebody that knows about SEO, or as you said, if you want to run ads, you know that can help you with it

Dave Moss: [00:50:48] does your books so that you have more money because your taxes are done properly, whatever it is, whatever your weakness Uh, there’s a photographer I know in San Diego who pays someone to do his laundry because that’s a weakness of his, and he’s like, that’s two hours a week I can get back where I can either be on the beach or I can be doing a session or whatever.

But it doesn’t necessarily even have to be business-related because when you’re a solo entrepreneur or partnership, the things in your life affect the time in your

Christine Tremoulet: [00:51:12] that is a golden nugget right there. Such, such a great point. I love that. So is there anything, anything in closing you want to add.

Dave Moss: [00:51:25] I would just say go out and have conversations with other people, who are, who are doing what you’re doing. And you’ll very, very quickly realize that we are all. Mostly struggling with the same few things, and maybe through those conversations you can find some, some creative ways to fix the holes in your business.

And if that’s not working, definitely reach out to a coach and find a coach that works for you. There’s a lot of different ways for, for people to get coaches out there, whether it’s group, online classes, whether it’s local, whether it’s one-on-one, whether it’s a creativity mentor, where it’s more focused on the shooting, then the, then the business side or blend or whatever.

I will say that that, that type of education has been. One of, if not the best investment in myself and in my career in the last five years. And it was one of the questions I asked on my questionnaire and the people who had been in business five to seven years or longer. Who had coaches or mentors also agreed that it was one of the best investments in their career in business and wish they would have done it sooner.

So I would, I would implore, have a coach, and if you can’t afford a coach or you can’t find a coach, at least have conversations with other people in your industry, whether they’re local or just internet friends, and just talk about what struggles you’re dealing with and chances are they will be too. And maybe between the two of you, you guys can creative solutions for

Christine Tremoulet: [00:52:49] that you can trust who is also able to point things out in a way to you that helps you improve.

Dave Moss: [00:52:56] Oh, and one last point. It’s a, it’s the only post in my coaching blog right now. and it’s kind of there for a reason, just for the, for the start. But if you’re going to hire a coach or a mentor, do your homework first. Make sure they’re successful in the way that you want to be successful. make sure that.

They, you know, they’re not just a staikos oil salesman. Cause there’s a lot of people out there unfortunately who, who called themselves a coach or call themselves a consultant or call themselves a mentor who don’thave the

Christine Tremoulet: [00:53:23] so my,

Dave Moss: [00:53:24] up. So do your homework.

Christine Tremoulet: [00:53:26] was, has never been my, they were my business coach, but they had never actually been a photographer themselves.

Dave Moss: [00:53:33] Yeah, that’s perfectly fine too. They know how to run a business. I’ve got clients who aren’t photographers, and I don’t know much about their industry, but I can talk to them about, you know, marketing or sales or customer service,

Christine Tremoulet: [00:53:45] I always like to point the edge people to keep that in mind. Like maybe the best person for you is outside the industry because they may have insights that you don’t see, or maybe they are in the industry. So just like you said, find the right person for you. thank you so much again for joining me.

As we mentioned, people can find you at Abby plus Dave, your photography site, and Dave Moss coaching and your Dave Moss coach on Instagram. , thank you everyone for listening and you go check out. I, I feel like Dave always writes some really insightful and wise posts. I’ve definitely had a lot of aha moments just in the things that you’ve shared.

So, I hope people go and check you out and learn more about you. And I didn’t ask where is the true North conference in April.

Dave Moss: [00:54:36] Oh, it’s in a a a tiny little town in Ontario called Chatham Kent, Ontario. So the closest airport is either the Windsor airport or Toronto airport, but it’s this beautiful little town in Ontario at this boutique hotel. It’s a 50 person conference, so there’s not a lot of tickets. So if you’re thinking about going, then I would definitely jump on

Christine Tremoulet: [00:54:57] Right. I’ll be sure to include them like I, along with the link and your social media, all those links will be included in the show notes, and as I mentioned, Dave is speaking at WPPI at 8:30 AM on Thursday morning, so you can go see him at 8:30 in the morning and you can see me at three in the afternoon and your Thursday will be all set.

Noise: [00:55:17] Thank you again.

Dave Moss: [00:55:21] Well, thanks for having me. This was a great, I always have great conversations with you, so it was a joy

Christine Tremoulet: [00:55:26] Thank you again so much for joining us. Show notes for this episode are available at Reframesuccess.com. If you enjoyed this episode, please share it with your friends and be sure to leave a five star review!

Become a show supporter by joining Photographer’s Inner Circle, the online community focused on teaching professional photographers of all levels and experience how to be the most productive and profitable you can be.

Get the details at PhotographersInnerCircle.com. Thank you again. Until next time.

The post The One Thing You’re Not Doing for Success in Your Business with Dave Moss – Episode 1 appeared first on Personal Brand Photography for Creatives in Houston, Texas - Christine Tremoulet.

I’ll be updating this list throughout Cyber Monday as I find more deals. Let me know if there is anything I should add!

Note: Some links below are affiliate links. I have only included products below that I use & love or ones that I’d recommend in a heartbeat.

Latest update: 12/1/2019 at 2:39pm Central. UPDATES FOR 2023 COMING SOON!

The InstaLocal Prompt Planner is now available!

Do you ever wish that you had help coming up with what to write each day? You’re not trying to be a global influencer, you’re running a LOCAL business, and you need clients! This 365 Day prompt planner will help you brainstorm those ideas so you can create connections that lead to conversations & clients!
Code: None required!
Price: super sale price of $37!
Dates: Now thru December 3rd.
Link: Get Your InstaLocal Prompt Planner HERE

From Other Photography Companies

The LawTog – What’s more exciting than pumpkin pie & mac n’ cheese?! A good ol’ Black Friday sale that HELPS you in business! This year we have 15% off EVERYTHING in the store! That’s everything in our store that will help you this new year such as: contracts, copyright infringement kit, education courses and so much more!
Deal: 15% Off entire store!
Code: THANKS19
Link: Shop HERE

StompSoftware makes rad tools for photographers, with the intent to make tedious, complicated tasks simple and fun! Our suite of tools are designed to save you time and help you present your photography business in the best way possible, whether shared online or in printed albums. Enjoy all of our tools at 40% off this Black Friday through Cyber Monday! #HappyStomping
Dates: November 27 – December 2
Deal: Save 40% across our entire store!
Link: Shop HERE

SpaceSaver reduces the file size of high-resolution Jpeg files while protecting the image quality of the photos, giving you optimal images to use either in print and online. This means shorter upload times, faster page loads, and more free space on your hard drives! Don’t miss your LAST CHANCE to score SpaceSaver at the introductory price of only $29!! #GetSpaceSaver
Dates: November 27 – December 2
Deal: Last chance at the introductory price of $29!
Link: Shop HERE

Pro Photographers Content Creation with Kimberley Anderson – Do you ever think “Why can’t my photos tell the story? Why do I have to say all the things?!” Learn to Create Content for Social Media or your Blog that SPEAKS to People! Pro Photographers Content Creation is designed for photographers who need help making their words sound as good as their images look.
Deal: Only $17/month!
Link:

Instagram for Wedding Pros – All Access Summit Pass We all know that Instagram is where it’s at nowadays. But just like how running a wedding business is different from other types of businesses, using Instagram as a wedding professional is DIFFERENT. Guess what? Who you’re trying to reach on Instagram (engaged couples) is using it differently too. The way you use Instagram as a wedding professional CAN and SHOULD be different. Learn from leading industry experts (including ME!) on how to use Instagram TODAY!
Deal: $30 off
Code: BlackFriday30
Link: Get Your Pass HERE!

Fundy Designer
Deal: 30% Off
Code: None required
Price: Varies based on options
Link: Shop HERE

Psychology for Photographers!
This is the only time of year the ENTIRE Psychology for Photographers store is on sale. Even better? Jenika has revamped the already AMAZING Irresistible Website product and it is on sale at a super low introductory price! I picked up my copy already (new site design coming soon!) and you should get yours too!

Irresistible Website: RELAUNCHING AT $99, will jump to $159 after the sale
This course is for photographers & creators. Do you find yourself sending people to your website with an apology that some part of it isn’t “done,” or it doesn’t represent you the way you 100% want it to? You don’t need more information, you need results and clear steps to get them. You want a one-stop website that teaches people about you, gently nudges away those who aren’t a good fit, and gets your target clients to take the next step to hiring you. Also, it would be great if it could be done yesterday. Go, buy this now. Get started right away.
Deal: $60 Off
Code: None required
Price: $99 until December 2, 2019
Link: Get your copy HERE

Irresistible Words: On sale for $199

Irresistible You: Normally $219, on sale for $179

Fuse’s SEO Classes Get SEO and Marketing Coaching! Local SEO Academy – Early Bird Price $147 (On Sale for $86.73) This is Feuza’s brand new 4-week on-demand course that will walk you through A-Z on how to get your local business found online. She will cover the top Local SEO ranking factors to take your website to page 1 of Google Rankings. This includes: Local SEO keyword research, On-Page SEO factors, Analyzing missing content from your website and creating a content plan, Off-Page SEO factors, plus some techie items. It also includes Google My Business Bootcamp ( $47 value, On Sale for $27.73) Google My Business makes up 25% of your Local SEO rankings so if you haven’t touched your listing in ages or if you haven’t listed your photography business in Google, then this course is perfect for you!
Deal: 41% off Local SEO Academy // 41% off Google My Business Bootcamp
Dates: November 22 – December 2, 2019
Code: BIRTHDAY2
Link: Shop HERE

Sandisk Extreme Pro 128gb Memory Cards – on sale on Amazon! Click here to buy yours!

The post Black Friday Deals for Photographers appeared first on Personal Brand Photography for Creatives in Houston, Texas - Christine Tremoulet.

Kevin Lowery is an intimate portrait (boudoir), lifestyle, and wedding photographer based in the Metro Atlanta area. Kevin’s work is known for its human connection and vulnerability, and he strives to make photos with every client that push boundaries and dare to go deeper than skin-deep. Kevin lives in Marietta, GA with his husband and their 2-year-old son.

Kevin shares about his personal life, growing up gay, and his own struggles with the concept of masculinity. He started his inspiring Skin Like Dawn project to unpack how all men struggle with masculinity, and to see what men look like when they shed the baggage around it. How men put on the “manly” layer every day, the one that makes them be non-feeling and strong. The hoops that men jump through to make themselves seem manly. They shed the layers and dive deep during the sessions.

He wants to celebrate men in their most vulnerable state and make them truly feel proud of that person. Every man deserves to feel that way.

We go deeper into the conversation about men & vulnerability. We don’t give men spaces to be emotional and vulnerable, and this starts early in childhood. We don’t allow men to process their feelings, we don’t give them a space to process their feelings. We tell them to “man up.”

Kevin shares his perspective as the parent of a son, and how he even has to work to give his toddler son the space to cope with his feelings.

Until we allow men to have these feelings, and to feel valid in their vulnerability, women will continue in their struggles. Because they don’t know what to do with their emotions, it comes out in effecting feminism on the other side.

The issue of vulnerability and masculinity and feminism are more nuanced than two separate, divided issues.

Men, in their struggle to be manly, leave so many casualties behind them. Men end up hurting so many people along the way, and it is born from this internal struggle of living up to an ideal of what society tells them they have to be. It is a conversation we need to have collectively as a society because it hurts everybody.

Kevin & I also talk about raising sensitive boys. If you feel like you can’t change the whole world? This is something that you can do.

Kevin shares:
– Allowing your son to have the space to learn to own his emotions, that is ok to feel the way that they do. It helps to teach them empathy. To own their own emotions and vulnerability.
– If you’re a man, you have to allow yourself more grace than you do. Give yourself some slack and think about the ways that people around you influence the way you think that you should act.
– This comes to physical appearance as well. Love yourself more. Retrain yourself to actually look at yourself in the mirror, and say three kind things to yourself. Try to remember that other people do not see the things that you don’t like about yourself.
– If you want to help others love & appreciate themselves more, you need to learn to love your own body.
– Cut men some slack to have a space to have emotions, and allow their emotions to be valid. Allow them to feel safe, to have struggles, and to not require “maleness” to figure it out.
– HOLD THE SPACE for men to be vulnerable.

This is all a constant work in progress. We are socialized to be this way.

Sometimes men feel upset, and sometimes men don’t feel masculine, and sometimes men feel less than. You need to recognize when this happens and let them know that they are enough right now.

We need to recognize beauty in ALL BODIES. Women and men. The weight of this problem is big. It is everywhere. We need a bigger collective awareness. Validate all folks, no matter what their gender is, and give them the space without an agenda.

You can find Kevin’s work online at the spaces below. (There may be some nudity, and I’m not warning you because there is shame in that, but simply in case you want to make sure your boss or your children are not around.)
– Skin Like Dawn on Instagram
– Skin & Heart on Instagram
– Kevin Lowery
– Skin & Heart
– Teacher / Expert in the UnRaveled Academy
– Tomayia Colvin Education Platform

The post Episode 27 – Kevin Lowery, Masculinity, and the Skin Like Dawn Project appeared first on Personal Brand Photography for Creatives in Houston, Texas - Christine Tremoulet.

Paul Pruitt has personally taught tens of thousands of sales people around the world over the past 24 years about marketing, sales, branding, and more. He was a national trainer and speaker and traveled throughout the United States training salespeople in workshops, seminars, and from the stage.

During these years as a Real Estate agency owner, photography was Paul’s hobby. His escape from his busy life. He took classes and even kept a small studio as a place to go and unwind.

Meanwhile, he was an absentee owner, and he took his eye off of his business. The people he believed he could trust the most destroyed the business that he had built, and he woke up one day completely destitute.

It isn’t an easy story to hear. It is something that we all fear. Yet Paul could not be stopped. Living out of his car, he started to rebuild his life again. He knew what it took. He knew how to sell, market, and brand.

And he still had his camera gear.

With that, he rebuilt his life AND his business.

Paul shares his wisdom and lessons he has learned along the way in this episode. One of my favorite quotes was this:

“Every small business market is oversaturated. Stop blaming them. You succeed only by differentiating from the competitors.”

Paul and his wife Melissa now run a successful photography company, focusing on headshots and branding, as well as mentoring photographers on both improving their photography skills and getting more results in sales in their membership Photographer Entrepreneurs Association.

Key Points

You need a niche, but not too early. What if you try a niche and you discover you don’t like it? It is like visiting the buffet at a restaurant: the first time you go through, you explore and try a little bit of everything. When you go back? Hone in on what you really like. Don’t focus on it right out of the gate.

We discussed the importance of networking in person, and how important that can be. There is a human being attached to a social account. Most of us are dealing in local markets, and that person could interact in real life with us! Find the influencers and create a purposeful alignment.

He shared a number of tips about using press releases and looking for the business leaders winning awards and how to use that for the benefit of your business. We also discussed non-profits and working with benefactors and donors.

Make your exposure investment is purposeful and deliberate.

Is your marketing plan to just hope & pray? That is reactive, and you cannot control resources that people have. Go to where people have the capabilities at the level that you want.

You don’t have to be your avatar to understand them.

You do need to constantly be doing market assessments – if you’re slow, are you Old Coke on the shelf? Even if you don’t jump on the trend, it’s important to be aware.

When it comes to Marketing, Branding, and In Person Sales – look at adjacent industries. These things aren’t unique to photographers, and staying within the industry causes it to become an echo chamber of the same ideas over & over again, rather than refreshed by new ideas that apply across all sales!

Additional Links:

In Person Sales & Marketing for Professional Photographers Facebook Group
Brandographers Business Page
Photographer Entrepreneur Association Business Page
PROFITographers – Creating a Successful Photography Business on Amazon in both Paperback & Kindle format

The post Episode 26 – From Millionaire to Rock Bottom and Back Again with Paul Pruitt appeared first on Personal Brand Photography for Creatives in Houston, Texas - Christine Tremoulet.

Kait Masters of Larkspur + Laurel is a part-time artist, full-time community support professional, and a chronic illness/disability advocate. She was diagnosed with a rare neuromuscular disease as a child, and the act of creating became one of the most important parts of management and acceptance of her condition. Her passion for art, advocacy, and community eventually led Kait to her job in community support with Rising Tide and HoneyBook.

Kait & I discuss the impact of having a chronic illness on our work and share tips on how we have learned to incorporate it into our lives. This isn’t always easy – it can take adaptation to make it work, understanding employers if you have a job, and evaluation to define what success now looks like for you.

It is so important that employers have systems in place to help not only employees with chronic illness but their family members as well.

Even if you don’t have a chronic illness, I hope that listening to this episode will help you better understand people who do, and help you have empathy for friends & loved ones who might be facing this situation someday.

Details on how to join The Rising Tide Society are here: Honeybook.com/join-risingtide. You can also join the TuesdaysTogether – Creative & Chronic Illness group on Facebook.

The post Episode 25 – Creative Work and Chronic Illness with Kait Masters appeared first on Personal Brand Photography for Creatives in Houston, Texas - Christine Tremoulet.

If you’re like me, and most other creatives, you just want to bury your head in the sand and not have to deal with the numbers when it comes to business. Don’t worry, Courtney Zerizef has you covered! Her incredible Homeroom helps you become financially wiser when it comes to pricing, profitability, and preparing for your taxes.

“If your business isn’t making money, you just have an expensive hobby.” I’ve been through an audit personally, and the biggest thing that the IRS was concerned about was that my business was profitable. You can’t run your business in the negative for years according to the IRS.

Courtney points out that if you don’t understand your finances, you might actually be PAYING to do all of the work that you do! You may not be making money at all! What is the point of doing all that hard work if you’re not making any money?

Are you paying for the privilege of calling yourself a professional photographer?

Courtney shares with us three main money points that you need to consider.

Are You Defining Profit Correctly?

You have to make sure you’re defining PROFIT correctly, and understand what it means.

– Revenue – When someone pays you, this is the money that shows up in your bank account.
– Margin – Revenue less the cost of doing the work, the expenses that are involved. Outsourcing, gear rental, paying an assistant, all are deducted here. (There are two types of margins, which Courtney explains more in-depth in the show.)
– Profit – After EVERYTHING is paid out, all is said and done, your profit is what is left, and what you pay taxes on. You may not want to have six figures of profit at the end of the year!

The number that people toss around a lot in the industry is the Revenue number, NOT the profit number. When someone is talking about their numbers, it is essential to know which number they mean! I’ve brought in over 6-figures in Revenue every year in my photography business, but that is not all going straight into my checking account.

Should you just copy someone else’s prices?

If you lift up someone else’s prices, you have no idea about anything behind the numbers. You don’t know how much their costs are, how much they are paying themselves, or how they even like to live.

You must run your numbers for yourself so that you make sure you are profitable.

You can’t just guess at the numbers. If you copy someone else? You don’t know if they are guessing, if they can cover their costs, or anything else. They may be making different choices in their business than you would make in yours.

You have to do your math!

Courtney & I discuss outsourcing your work, and from a higher level – finding the joy in YOUR life matters! If you measure yourself by the stick of someone else who is bringing in $100,000 a year, but they are constantly working at a level that you don’t want to live? It’s not an accurate measure.

Make sure that the work you’re doing allows you to love your LIFE.

Tips to consider to help your business grow

– Know your expenses! Make a list of all of your expenses, and organize them by the costs for the full year, and your costs per job. That way you know your margins, and you can strategize for the full year.

– Courtney is a huge fan of renting lenses. Did you know that you can rent a lens for 67 times before you buy a lens! Who knew?! If you’re first starting out, you may want to rent while you find what works for you, because reselling a lens won’t get you the value back.

– Should you buy gear, or buy other things that your business needs?

– Know your market, and your specific target market! That informs a lot of other things, including your pricing. If your target market is not going to pay premium pricing, you need to consider that into your strategy. If your target market is a premium client, and you have a low price option on your price sheet? You’re confusing people. The confused mind doesn’t buy! Your pricing needs to align with your messaging and the voice of your brand.

– The target market is not just about the people, but the section of the market. You are competing for a tiny segment of the market of clients in your area every year. If you can identify where your brand fits in the broader market, and what makes you different than everyone else, you’ve sectioned it off. Doing this makes your marketing time & money go MUCH further.

– If you’re going after the broad market of “ALL,” it becomes hard to get ONE. If you define specifics? Your marketing dollars go so much further because you’re able to book a more significant portion of your smaller section. (Courtney left me speechless as she talked about this!)

Learn More About Courtney

You can go to CreativeHomeroom.com, where she offers intensive workshops to help you build your business, study hours that are shorter to touch on specific topics, and she also offers one-on-one coaching, customized to your needs. You can also find Courtney on Instagram at @creativehomeroom and Facebook at creativehomeroom.

You can build a beautiful house, but if it isn’t built on a solid foundation? It can all come crashing down. Make sure your business is built on solid ground!

Here is what’s current/upcoming at Homeroom:
– Just launched a new Product Pricing Tracker! More digital goods are coming soon to help creatives with their own financial strategy.
– Monthly Portland Study Hours
– Upcoming Denver Study Hours (June 6th & 7th)
– Possible Houston multi-day workshop!
– September workshop at the Oregon Coast: Streamline Your Benjamins
– Speaking at Real Life Conference in Canmore, Alberta, Canada (Nov 5th – 8th)

The post Episode 24 – Being Financially Smart with Courtney Zerizef appeared first on Personal Brand Photography for Creatives in Houston, Texas - Christine Tremoulet.