Ever dreamed of studying in the true heart of London? King’s College London (KCL) might be your perfect match. With its main campus overlooking the Thames and a history dating back to 1829, King’s offers a quintessential British experience with a global, fast-paced edge. Here’s a rundown of what I learned on my recent visit:

Academics with a Global Pulse

King’s isn’t just a university; it’s a powerhouse. It’s part of the prestigious “Golden Triangle” (alongside Oxford, Cambridge, LSE, UCL, and Imperial), meaning the academic rigor is high, but the vibe is distinctly urban and forward-thinking. In fact, it’s currently ranked 6th in the UK for research quality—so you aren’t just learning; you’re also creating new knowledge.

• The Digital Media & Business Edge: Whether you are looking at the Digital Media & Culture BA or a degree within the King’s Business School, you are entering programs at the “inflection point” of technology.
  • The AI Inflection Point: Unlike many programs that focus on production or simple management, King’s approaches tech from a sociological point of view. You’ll examine AI’s impact on creative industries and even online campaigning (like analyzing the digital strategies of the Trump vs. Harris campaigns).
  • Look out for the new BSc Sociology (led by Professor Sarah Hodges) and the Environmental Science BS/MSci starting in 2027. They are focusing heavily on creating “adaptable, creative thinkers” for industries like EdTech and FinTech.
• The Strand Experience & Bush House: The Business School is headquartered in the iconic Bush House (formerly the BBC headquarters). It’s a space where media history meets modern corporate strategy, perfectly reflecting the school’s blend of legacy and innovation.
• London as Your Lab: Professors here are industry-connected. One student shared how their professor helped them land an internship because they knew about the student’s independent podcast. Pro-tip: Put your podcast on everything! If you’re doing digital media or business, your personal projects are your best currency.

The “Big City” Social Life

Forget the enclosed quads of a rural campus. At King’s, the city of London is your student union.

• Student Leadership is “Real World”: Unlike many universities in Europe where societies are rare, King’s has over 300 student-led groups. In the UK, these are more than just “hobbies.”
  • Committee Life: If you’re on a committee, you’re running a small business. Students manage their own society bank accounts and make real executive decisions. You find your community through these groups; there is a website for everything, and a link for every niche interest.
  • First Year Guaranteed Housing: KCL guarantees housing for first-year students across 14 residences in London, hosting about 6,000 students. After that, you’re usually living in Zone 1 within a 40-minute perimeter of campus.
• The Maughan Library: It looks like something out of Harry Potter (the Round Reading Room is often compared to Dumbledore’s office). It’s a stunning place to study, but it’s also where you’ll see the serious side of King’s students during exam season.

Student life at King’s College London is characterized by a global, cosmopolitan atmosphere where the city of London serves as an extension of the campus. Here are the key aspects of the student experience:

A Global Community

The student body is exceptionally diverse, representing 110 to 120 different nationalities. In some departments, international students make up more than 50% of the population. Students often report that they learn as much from their interactions with peers from every continent as they do from their formal studies. This inclusive and friendly environment is a core part of the “King’s identity”.

Societies and Activities

There is a vibrant extracurricular scene with societies catering to almost any hobby or interest:

• Student-Led Organizations: Many societies are entirely run by students.
• National Societies: These are very popular, with the Indian Society being the largest on campus.
• Hobbies and Sports: Options range from the board game society, where students play all day, to club and intramural sports.
• Wednesday Afternoons: This time is specifically reserved for sports and various student activities.

Social Life and Pub Culture

The campus is described as “very social,” with a prevailing pub culture. It is common for students to visit local pubs after (or sometimes before) class to relax with a pint. Pub quizzes are a frequent evening staple for both groups and individuals. For more formal occasions, students participate in events like the Black Tie Ball.

Living in London

• Residences: King’s has 14 residences across London, housing approximately 6,000 students, with accommodation guaranteed for first-year students.
• The City as a Playground: Located in Zone 1, the campus is within a five-minute walk of major attractions like the Thames, Westminster, and various museums. After their first year, most students move into neighboring apartments within a 40-minute perimeter of the university.
• Student Perks: The student card provides discounts across the country, helping students navigate the costs of living in a major city.

Support and Engagement

• Personalized Academic Care: Every student is assigned a personal tutor from the faculty who acts as an academic advisor, meeting with them during their first week and several times each term.
• Active Contribution: The university encourages students to be “contributors” rather than just learners. Through initiatives like the “I lead” business incubator or student representative roles on advisory councils, students have a direct say in their educational experience.
• Career Preparation: Student life also includes heavy engagement with professional development, including access to 500 employer events on campus annually and support for CVs and LinkedIn profiles.

Who Goes Here?

• The International Mix: In departments like Digital Media and Business, the international population frequently soars above 50%. You’re building a global network from day one.
• Independent and Driven: There is no hand-holding. This is for the student who wants to set up their own leadership opportunities and isn’t afraid to seek funding and support to get their projects off the ground.
• Key Student Descriptors: Ambitious, cosmopolitan, ethically-minded, and ready to lead.

The Admissions Angle

• It’s Highly Selective: KCL receives roughly 12,000 applications for only 650 places (a 26% acceptance rate). For US students, they look closely at AP scores (usually 5s in relevant subjects) and ACT/SAT results.
  • The Math Requirement (Crucial): Business students must have a 5 in AP Calculus BC to be admitted. King’s will NOT consider students without BC Calculus for Business or other STEM-related subjects. 90% of US applicant rejections for Business are due to missing this requirement.
  • Common Year One: Many Science and Medicine programs share a “Common Year One,” allowing students to swap tracks at the end of their first year if their research interests align elsewhere.
• Financial Aid Surprise: Unlike many UK universities, King’s offers financial aid to international students whose families make less than £42,000 (~$53,000 USD) a year to help cover room and board.

Key Takeaways

• Proven ROI: While students are passionate, the career support is top-tier (500 employer events a year). Graduates see a 43% rise in salary within five years.
• Alumni Power: 58% of UK CEOs studied the Humanities—proving the KCL “liberal arts” approach pays off.
• Career Support: You get dedicated career support for two years after you graduate.

Is King’s for you? If you’re an independent go-getter and love the fast-paced energy of a campus in the heart of heart of a global city, King’s College London is calling!

Kings College London Information & Location

Kings College London

+44 (0)20 7836 5454

King’s College London Strand London WC2R 2LS United Kingdom

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Imperial College London stands as a world-leading institution dedicated exclusively to STEMB (Science, Technology, Engineering, Medicine, and Business), think the MIT of England. Operating under the mission of “Science for Humanity,” the college focuses on the translation of academic research into tangible products and entrepreneurial ventures. For the student who is certain of their path in the sciences, business or engineering, Imperial offers an environment of unrivaled depth and rigor.

Academics: Depth, Research, and the “I-Explore” Edge

The academic experience at Imperial is defined by immediate specialization and high levels of independence. Most students choose between three-year BSc degrees or four-year integrated masters programs, including ten distinct engineering tracks.  

We had a chance to meet professors from the bioengineering department. Professors manage the whole curriculum and make all the material relevant to the students.  

• Research-Led Learning: Research is a massive component of the undergraduate journey through programs like UROP and IROP. Second-year bioengineering students participate in a 20-week hands-on lab class focusing on cell cultures and writing research reports suitable for professional publication.
• Curriculum Innovation: While the focus is specialized, the I-Explore initiative provides a unique opportunity for students to take elective classes outside of their primary major to broaden their perspectives.
• New Horizons: The college continues to evolve with its curriculum, recently launching a new major in Economics, Finance, and Data Science.
• Self-Directed Environment: Students are treated as adults; attendance is rarely recorded except for mandatory labs, and all lectures are recorded for independent review. However, international students must attend class to maintain their visas. Be prepared for a relentless pace, as exams often occur immediately after holidays, meaning students “never get a break”.

The Entrepreneurial Ecosystem: The Enterprise Lab

Imperial is a powerhouse for innovation, the Enterprise Lab serves as a central hub, supporting students from the initial spark of an idea through prototyping and into commercialization.

• Student Impact: One in eight students works with the lab, which provides access to a network of 900 interested investors and over 80 world-class mentors.
• Notable Ventures: The lab has birthed successful startups like Jelly Drops (hydrating sweets for dementia patients) and Notpla (biodegradable seaweed packaging).
• Inclusive Innovation: Initiatives like WE Innovate specifically support female entrepreneurs, having helped launch over 60 startups to date.

Student Body: Collaborative, STEM-Inclined, and Global

The community at Imperial is composed of 11,500 undergraduates, representing 150 nationalities. Students describe the vibe as uniquely STEM-focused, using adjectives like nerdy, sporty, collaborative, supportive, and hardworking.

I had the opportunity to watch a student production of The Importance of Being Ernest. The cast and crew was made up of undergraduate and graduate students, and the audience was super supportive. It was a balmy Friday night, and we walked through the outdoor pub where students were enjoying a pint or two. Inside, students were dancing and playing quiz games.  Overall they looked happy and were having a blast. 

• Social Life: Extracurricular life is vibrant, with 370 different student societies. These range from Imperial Hockey and rock climbing to a non-audition, just-for-fun wind band.
• Traditions: Students often bond through departmental dinners or random social events, such as a Friday black-tie boat party specifically for engineers.
• Living in London: First-year students typically live in Imperial housing, which is generally a 20–30 minute walk from campus. In subsequent years, most move into private flats further away, often with friends.
• Wednesday afternoon sports matches. Consistent with all UK schools, there are no classes on Wednesday afternoons to allow for students to compete in sports. 

Surrounding Area: Museum Row and Hyde Park Adjacent 

Imperial college is surrounded by museums: The Victoria and Albert is across the street and The National History Museum and The Science Museum are down the block.  It’s an easy walk to Hyde Park as well. We loved exploring the restaurants, pubs and shops in the area. Don’t miss Ceru or Brother Marcus for Mediterranean food.

Admissions: A Data-Driven Approach 

Admission to Imperial is highly selective and focuses almost entirely on academic potential and subject interest.

• The Numbers: US applicants typically need a minimum of 4-5 AP exams with scores of 5. Specific subjects are mandatory; for example, AP Calculus BC is required for engineering and business degrees.
• The Personal Statement: Admissions tutors look for 85–90% academic focus. This should highlight “super-curricular” activities—such as academic reading, podcasts, research projects, or summer schools—that demonstrate a deep understanding of the chosen subject beyond the standard school curriculum.
• Testing and Interviews: Many majors require subject-specific tests like the ESAT or TMUA. If invited for an interview, it may range from a traditional conversation to a technical assessment conducted by a professor and a student.

Summary 

Imperial College London is a match for the brilliant, curious, and self-motivated student who lives and breathes STEMB. It is a place for those who want to be at the center of a global innovation hub and are ready to take full ownership of their academic and professional future.

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This weekend, I listened to an outstanding panel from Johns Hopkins called Engineering Skills that Matter and then saw Project Hail Mary. The timing was uncanny. While top STEM coursework is expected at selective universities, both the panel and the movie made clear: it’s the non-STEM skills that matter most for engineering admissions.

Interpersonal and “Inner-personal” Skills

Engineering means solving problems. This ranges from something as simple as stopping animals from raiding your trash to the unimaginably complex challenge of capturing an alien-resistant microbe called “taumoeba” to save the sun (yes, that’s Project Hail Mary). Either way, these two skills are essential.

Interpersonal: You need to communicate your ideas and work with others. Grace and Rocky, the protagonists in Project Hail Mary, had to literally learn each other’s language to save their respective worlds.

Inner-personal: A term I picked up from the Johns Hopkins panel: the ability to accept your shortcomings, put your ego aside, and stay open to other perspectives. Be okay with being wrong. That’s how you grow. Once Grace accepted that everything on Erid, Rocky’s planet, worked in reverse of what he assumed, he cracked the code.

Communication in All Forms

Good engineers communicate with colleagues, clients, and stakeholders, and they can write technical specs and sketch ideas so others can see their vision. This is why art and writing classes (not using an LLM!) matter more than students expect.

Collaboration is Critical

• Listen. To yourself and others. Grace and Rocky succeeded because each brought a completely different perspective.
• Know your audience. Engineers collaborate with non-engineers too.
• Sketch it out. Draw what’s in your head so others can build on it with you.

Get Your Hands Dirty

Get into a shop. Learn to weld, work with wood, or 3D print. Work with a carpenter — the way they think is practical in ways that make you a better engineer. What you build matters less than that you build. Clothing, model airplanes, drones, all fair game.

1. Explore many interests and look at everything through an engineering eye.
2. Go deep on one thing and build portfolio pieces.
3. Take advanced math and science.

The panelists specifically called out: sewing, theater tech design, microcontrollers, and construction work. All of it counts.

When I think about my most successful engineering applicants, they were problem solvers by nature: one built an automated Christmas tree watering system, another designed all her school’s stage sets, and another outsmarted deer with a custom garden cover. Each one built things out of genuine love for solving problems.

How to Build These Skills in High School

Start early. The Johns Hopkins panelists had great advice:

• Take music, art, and chess; they train you to think ahead.
• Get comfortable with uncertainty. There’s rarely one right answer.
• Tutor others. Explaining ideas deepens your own understanding.
• Look for ways to make someone’s life easier? Start small and humble. Can you practice engineering in the context of constraints: Timeline, budget, client, shared vision. Find ways to do things in your life right now!!
• Ask yourself: How does this work? Get curious about everyday design.
• Force yourself to come up with 3–4 original ideas before looking for answers. Your brain needs the workout.
• Take a drawing class to learn how to show your ideas to others.
• Keep your integrity. Ask for help and don’t oversell.

Here is a great guide to analyzing a pre-college program. 

Let’s hope we never need to capture an alien-resistant microbe — but the world needs problem solvers. So get your hands dirty.

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Below are the top ten differences

Highly focused majors from day one with no ability to transfer. Professors teach subject matter that is all relevant to your course of study. For example, if you are studying chemical engineering, the maths corresponds with how you would apply it to your discipline. 

Supercurriculars not Extracurriculars. UK admissions officers want to know what you are intellectually curious about: What podcasts do you listen to? What articles do you read? What documentaries do you watch? What summer programs did you participate in? What research did you do that corresponds to your area of interest? 

Testing matters—a lot! For the most competitive UK schools, it’s all about the tests, tests, tests. They want students to demonstrate mastery in their subject matters before accepting them. The most selective unis and programs, e.g. business and STEM, require a 5 in AP Calculus BC and corresponding sciences. Less than a 5 in APs need not apply to the most selective schools like Imperial College or King’s College.

International is the norm in London schools. We saw students represented from 150+ countries. Each country has a separate society with the Indian societies often the largest. Students have opportunities to interact and make friends with a truly global community.

Independence required; collaboration expected. While students seem to have a lot of free time, they have to be comfortable managing their work load over time. Students also collaborate across the board for various projects and assignments. 

Expect to cook in a community kitchen and find accommodations (housing) off campus by year 2. Most schools guarantee housing for the first year and only a few offer “catering” or dining options. The majority of students cook in a shared kitchen among 5-10 students.  

Pub culture, societies, and sports drive social life. Students seemed very social and engaged. Every day is pub day, but it really comes alive on the weekend. On a Friday night at Imperial College, we saw students gathering outside with pints of beer, dancing inside the pub, playing quiz games, or attending a student run performance of The Importance of Being Ernest.  

Sports participation is big! Almost all the students we met participated in some sport from rock climbing to paddle to badminton to field hockey. The built in Wednesday afternoons for matches makes it easy for students to compete against other schools because there are no classes during that time.

Research is encouraged and taught. Students learn how to research and have many opportunities to participate. Many courses have research methods as one of the modules. For example, Imperial College offers a 20-week module on how to perform cell culture for its Bioengineering students.

Faculty make learning engaging and relevant. All the faculty we met were passionate about their subject matter and found engaging ways to convey their information. They teach processes and how to turn theory into practice. We met a professor of chemical engineering at Imperial College who showed us how students learn to read a blueprint and work in a carbon chemical processing plant. A computer science professor walked us through how programming appears like magic while a creative writing professor described the step-by-step way they turn students into writers. Since the courses are so specialized, everyone wants to be there and learn the material. 

More Photos from Our Visit:

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This is Episode #43 and you’ll hear us talk about supporting students with ADHD and Executive Functioning challenges with Debbie White, Founder of Life Stormer. Listen to the episode on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, and your other favorite podcast spots – follow and leave a 5-star review if you’re enjoying the show!

• Episode Summary & Player
• Show Notes
• Learn more about the College Bound Mentor podcast
• Transcript

College Bound Mentor Podcast Episode #43: The ADHD Effect with ADHD & Executive Functioning Coach Debbie White

How do you help your student transition to college if they have ADHD or struggle with Executive Functioning? In this episode, we welcome on Debbie White, an ADHD & Executive Functioning Coach who’s the Founder of Life Stormer. Here’s a small sample of what you’ll hear in this episode:

• The difference between ADHD & Executive Functioning
• How to know if your student needs more support
• What happens when a student with ADHD or Executive Functioning concerns ends up at the wrong college
• How to prepare your student for college without compromising their independence
• And how to leverage ADHD or Executive Functioning skills as a gift and superpower

Subscribe to College Bound Mentor on your favorite podcast platform and learn more at CollegeBoundMentor.com.

Check out the episode and show notes below for much more detail.

Show Notes

• The ADHD Effect with ADHD & Executive Functioning Coach Debbie White
  • [00:19] Welcome to the College Bound Mentor
  • [00:49] Debbie’s background and why she shifted from corporate leadership to coaching
  • [02:31] ADHD vs. executive function: neurodivergence vs. the brain’s “management system”
  • [03:53] Why executive dysfunction is often misread as laziness, not a skills gap
  • [04:24] Executive function skills can be taught, but behavior change takes consistency
  • [05:22] Why habit-building can feel harder for neurodivergent brains
  • [08:06] What to watch for: inconsistency, overwhelm, and needing repeated adult support
  • [09:02] Why challenges spike at transition points when expectations increase
  • [10:57] How ADHD can present differently in girls and be harder to identify
  • [16:23] Causes of executive dysfunction
  • [18:35] The “wrong school” problem and how poor fit can amplify struggles
  • [20:44] Transition advice: remove scaffolding gradually and shift from manager to coach
  • [22:35] Tools that help: calendar/planner use and offloading working memory
  • [23:33] Preparing for college schedules with “anchors” and routine
  • [25:18] College accommodations and why disability services access matters
  • [28:03] Example of a student thriving after reducing over-support and finding the right fit
  • [37:52] “Eat the Frog” and other prioritization tools for planning the day
  • [39:46] Accountability strategies: body doubling and the Pomodoro Technique
  • [42:37] Social media tradeoffs: dopamine, distraction, and healthier boundaries with timers
  • [46:22] Myths and truths: intelligence isn’t executive function, it’s not a character flaw, and it can persist
  • [47:44] Wrap-up and where to find more episodes and resources
  • Theme Song: “Happy Optimistic Americana” by BDKSonic

What is the College Bound Mentor podcast?

Lisa, Abby, and Stefanie know college. They also know students. With over 30 years combined experience mentoring young people, they’ll show you why understanding yourself is the key to finding the right college. Each episode, hear trends, case studies, and interviews with students who have gone through it all – giving you valuable insight to survive the college application process and beyond. Hosted by Lisa Bleich, Abby Power, and Stefanie Forman, Partners of College Bound Mentor.

Transcript

Please note: this transcript is not 100% accurate.

00:04
Removing the scaffolding little by little is the best thing that a parent can do.

00:19
Hey, CBMers, welcome back to College Bound Mentor, where we help you survive the college application process and beyond. We’re your co-hosts, Lisa, Abby, and Stefanie. And on today’s episode, we are excited to chat with Debbie White. Debbie White is an ADHD Executive Function career and executive coach who pivoted to coaching after 25 years in a successful corporate career. Her journey to coaching was born out of years of parenting a son with ADHD and learning about her diagnosis alongside his.

00:49
It’s this lived experience that’s fueled a deep empathy for the challenges and strengths of ADHD. Debbie supports clients as young as 14 years old to adulthood and partners with them to set goals to enable them to live lives that are more focused, manageable, and fulfilling. Her approach is grounded in self-awareness, no judgment, and actionable support. Debbie and I met at one of my author events actually at the JCCC, I think it was last month.

01:16
And we started chatting and we were just sort of talking about what we did. And when I found out what she was working with a lot of the ADHD executive functioning population, I thought that would make a great guest on our podcast. So thank you for agreeing to be on it. And so welcome. Thank you. Thanks for having me. Yeah.

01:35
Well, you we have a lot of students that we work with that have ADHD. Some people have executive functioning challenges. Some people have ADHD and don’t have executive functioning challenges. And we’ve also seen that ADHD is something that impacts people differently. know, some people, it can be a real superpower where they can hyper-focus. And then sometimes we find that it’s really challenging for kids to focus. And sometimes a lot of times getting their ideas out from their heads onto paper.

02:03
So we find that also be a challenge. And a lot of people don’t know they have ADHD, particularly among girls. Like Steph didn’t know she, I mean, she went to college and then that’s when she realized that she had ADHD. So can you talk a little bit about breaking down the difference between ADHD, executive functioning, and how they often show up together? ADHD basically is a neurodivergence. And that is, um the brain is,

02:31
processes differently than um a neurotypical brain. Executive function is the brain’s management system. Some people think of it as an air traffic controller or an orchestra conductor. Executive function are really the skills that allow us to plan, to focus, to problem solve, to remember to do things, to manage our time, control our impulses.

02:58
um or adjust and be flexible when things don’t go according to plan. So you can imagine an airport without an air traffic controller. Unfortunately, I think we’ve seen that. I think we can imagine that, So without these strong executive function skills, even really intelligent people can struggle with day-to-day um skills and life and work and school.

03:23
not because they don’t know what to do, but they don’t know how to manage doing it. So really it’s like executive function are those skills, whereas ADHD is that neurodivergence and how the brain processes differently and can impact executive function and social emotional wellbeing. Right. And it’s so interesting because I hear, we hear often, and I’m sure you guys do with clients, it’s like, like they just don’t,

03:53
like we either people think they’re lazy or people think that they’re not trying. And so often it’s not necessarily that they’re not trying. It’s just that they don’t have the executive function skills to do it. And the intentions are always there, but they’re just not able to execute on them. Totally. I’ve taken a couple of neurobiology classes about ADHD and one of the favorite, my favorite things that my professor said that really crystallized it for me is ADHD isn’t a condition of knowing, it’s a condition of doing.

04:24
And so it is not that people don’t have the ability. It’s sort of like you might be a good chef and you could come up with a recipe on your own without even using a cookbook. But I don’t have that creativity and I may not know where to start because I don’t have that skill. And is it something that they can learn? Is it something that you’re able to impart and have people learn? Is it a learn skill? Absolutely. So executive function skills.

04:54
can absolutely be taught with two caveats. One, a willingness to be able to accept that there’s something that’s not serving you and you want it to be fixed. And two, it takes a lot of behavior change. So neurotypicals, when you are starting a routine, so I am also, I consider myself to be neuro, I identify as being neurodivergent with ADHD. So neurotypicals,

05:22
especially this time of year, new year, new you, with people setting their intentions for the year and setting new year’s resolutions, we’ve all read that building um a new habit takes 30 days, right? Everyone’s read that before. That’s actually not true. That is true for people who are neurotypical. For people who are neurodivergent, even though it becomes like, all right, I’m getting this, I’m going to the gym.

05:51
The habit does not become automatic. It still becomes a choice that I make every single day if I’m going to do something or not. So it is like pushing water up a hill, but it can be done by building new neural pathways and creating that behavior change that’s going to stick. I think that could be done two ways. One, doing a little bit at a time.

06:16
because we’re not broken, we don’t need to be fixed, we just have habits that don’t serve us. Two, the way you build new neural pathways is by uh having an open mind, by harnessing your creativity, by learning new things, it allows the mind to be more flexible to create those new pathways. It can be done for a lifetime.

06:45
It just becomes harder as we get older, but I am living proof as somebody who switched careers at 52 that it can be done and it can be done successfully. Yeah, I love too that you’re so open about your own journey and what you’ve learned through. I know you’ll get to it, I’m sure, this podcast and like what you have learned and how you’ve become so successful with what you learned from your experience with your son.

07:09
We had a lunch last week and I shared it with a seven-year-old daughter and she has ADHD and I’ve been very open about it. I see it as a gift and I think it will continue to be a gift for how she sees the world. But understandably so, sometimes you hear neurodivergent or you hear disability and that’s scary and it’s worrisome. And I think sometimes when we see our kids struggling, we are scared.

07:37
of the negativity that can be associated with that. So, you know, how do you know if your child needs help? Because it’s a scary thing to admit that. And what are some clear signs that this is not just a seven-year-old, a 14-year-old, an adult, a college student floundering, that there needs to be some support or some interventions put in place? All resonates. All land on me.

08:06
totally get it, you know, particularly having a younger child with you having a younger child. um Hearing these labels can be upsetting, but that’s all they are. Really. The first thing I’ll say is it’s a label. You know, you don’t know what size my shirt is. You don’t know what brand it is, but it gives me information so that I know that I can put the right size shirt on. um It doesn’t have to be anything. So that’s the first thing is like.

08:34
I think of as a label and I encourage people to think about it as just data. But it is upsetting, particularly when your child is young. In terms of looking at signs, I don’t think that there’s any one particular sign, but there are definitely clues. I think the biggest clue can be inconsistency. So when you see that your child knows what the expectations are, but they don’t consistently know how to follow through,

09:02
or do without adult support, or they’re overwhelmed. That is one key clue, I think, that you could look at at any age. Executive challenges really become more obvious when there are transition points, so when the expectations are getting higher. So whether it’s early childhood, keeping track of things, keeping their room clean, like for me, I lost a shoe on the way to school.

09:30
So tell me how many people without executive function deficits have lost a shoe on early school? I would say probably zero. Then there’s during uh early elementary school, there’s more assignments, there’s more expectations. And then again, particularly in adolescence, when there’s more of an expectation of independence um and those self-management demands increase. So one little caveat there is that

09:58
It’s not always so cut and dry, like not every kid loses a shoe on the way to school because the mind is really adaptable and we’re able to compensate and develop ways to cope. So those coping things can be like whether you’re working really hard to mask or deflecting attention away from the weaknesses um or your kid is copying their peers, you know, task or social oriented behaviors.

10:27
One other way is when there’s a lot of scaffolding from the parent, it might not be so apparent. So I would say just keep an eye on the child as we are all doing already. But if they’re really disorganized or they’re really struggling, that might be one clue. So that’s probably what the executive functioning skills. But I feel like with ADHD, particularly among girls is what I’ve seen, is that it’s the inattentive kind.

10:57
and they’re really smart, they can mask it for a really long time. And it’s hard to identify. Like one of my kids said, oh, I think that happened. I was like, no, you don’t. Like I work with kids that have ADHD all the time. And like you turn in your assignments, you’re very motivated, you get everything done, you have good grades. And it was still something that she, until she went to college is when she realized that it was more the inattentive type of ADHD.

11:26
And she always did incredibly well. There was never any of the executive function skills that were at hand. So I think that’s also something to just keep in mind that it manifests itself differently in different types of students. That is a good point because you can see a duck swimming along the water and it looks so graceful and beautiful, but they’re like flapping like crazy and they’re exhausted. um So that’s amazing self-awareness of your daughter to recognize that.

11:55
And it is a spectrum. Like you can have ADHD without having executive function challenges and you can, but it’s not as likely that you have executive function challenges without having ADHD. I’ve seen from clients, especially boys being diagnosed in high school because similar to what Lisa was saying, just because they were smart.

12:20
They could manage it in elementary middle school and then when they got to high school for different for five different periods different teachers just a lot more to manage and organize they just sort of fall apart. I’ve definitely seen that a bunch and then just with my own clients what i would say is what i see is the parents look at ninth grade where they haven’t done as well as they were in middle school and they’re like oh it’s just a hard transition.

12:46
And then it’s like in the middle of 10th grade, they’re like, whoa, whoa, whoa, we have a problem and they get them diagnosed. So I’ve, I’ve had that a bunch, especially with boys. In my experience, I feel like it’s more.

12:59
It’s harder to uh notice in girls because of the point that you made, Lisa, like with your daughter, because depending on maturity levels, and that’s another thing, ADHD, people tend to be 30 % younger than their chronological age in terms of maturity. So there can be a lag. So, you know, with girls who sometimes are, you know, tend to be very conscientious where some boys are and some boys aren’t,

13:28
as they mature.

13:32
with girls finding that lag between what their potential, like that disconnect might be smaller in a girl than in a boy, because they are more conscientious. Can I say that? I think so. I’m a parent of boys. I don’t know anyone who would argue with that, by the way. I’m a small sample size. had no idea.

13:58
And even in college, I didn’t know that I had it. was more like my mom picking up patterns or teachers along the way saying some things to me. But I understand, Abby, what you’re saying about the precipice, like being so significant from eighth grade to ninth grade and then like, let’s wait and see. But I think girls have a harder time because they are working so hard and they are reaching their potential, but they are flapping like a duck. Yeah, they’re working really hard.

14:27
and they don’t realize how it shouldn’t have to be quite as hard as other people. And so they don’t really know why that is. In fact, my husband, had just closing everything, but after then we realized, oh, you have it. He’s had it his whole life. He’s a professor of medicine. He’s highly accomplished person. But he would always say, in college, in med school, was like he had to work so hard to learn the material. And he’d hyper-focus, and he’d learn it, and he would do really well.

14:55
it was so much harder for him and he never, he just thought that was just what it was. And it really was like the last, I would say year or two, like, oh, you want me to eat she, that’s what it is. That makes so much sense now. I totally see it. Cause he’s always telling the story in this circuitous way, but he gets hyper focused on things and he’s super successful. So it’s almost his secret sauce in a way as well. He’s like a dog with a bone. mean, if he’s on something, he is not going to let go until he accomplishes it. And I admire that so much about him, whereas I’d be like, all right,

15:26
that’s I’m giving up on that. And he’s like, no, I’m going to keep at this. And he’s super creative and has all these wonderful ideas. But you just see the way the brain works when he’s telling a story. I’m like, OK, get to the point. Where are we going with this? And that’s not his like, he’s not being circuitous because he wants to be. That’s how his baby is. Yeah, that’s how he sees it. Yeah. And I think I said to you guys, my husband’s a TV news producer and he has a journalism background.

15:54
he talks in the inverted pyramid. It’s always like, tell me the headline. And I’m like, I have to give every little step along the way. And so I just won’t tell a long story in front of him anymore because. But it is. You kind of just before we we spoke about that, you kind of touched on this, but can someone struggle? And I think you answered this first part, but can someone struggle with executive functioning and not be neurodivergent or have a learning disability?

16:23
Let’s, for example, in today’s society, there are endless distractions, not just for students, for all of us. And the challenge to silence social media or silence the noise or silence whatever is going on in the world, um it’s so hard. So that challenge to do that and to not be distracted and to procrastinate.

16:49
Can that be mistaken for something else? Cause right, it’s hard to navigate in today’s society sometimes. It is, it absolutely is. You can have an executive function disorder and not be considered neurodivergent. Or you can have executive dysfunction without a learning disability. So they’re like, if you think of a Venn diagram, like they could be together, they don’t have to be together. There’s like a lot of…

17:19
overlap and mutual exclusive desk from there. But executive dysfunction can occur for a bunch of different reasons. One of them could be anxiety. So the working memory is reduced and the mental energy is spent on worry. So like what we met, we were talking about the fact, think of working memory as a sticky note for your brain. And so if your brain is busy worrying, or being anxious, it might not be able to organize you or process.

17:47
um Or if you’re depressed and have low energy or slow thinking or um difficulty planning and follow through, chronic stress or trauma, there’s a lot of different things. And I’m sure as moms, you guys can all identify with this one, sleep deprivation.

18:07
Sustained sleep deprivation over time really can impact all of these things. Your attention, your working memory, your emotional regulation. Like I can remember when my kids were little and they’d have a tantrum. Like it was all I could do to not lay on the floor and like dang my hands and feet. Cause I was so dysregulated from being exhausted. And then also like a developmental lag, like I was talking about before, some kids are just more immature than other kids and develop later.

18:35
Finally, an environmental mismatch. If you are at the wrong school and you have executive functioning deficit or ADHD and you’re a square peg in a round hole, that can cause like tremendous instability and variability. Well, I saw that with one of my own sons who was at the wrong school and how much stress.

19:00
You we switched him when he was going into eighth grade, but I see that with clients all the time. It’s hard to switch schools, but I think that people underestimate how big a stress on the whole system that can be. Yeah, and I worked with a lot of college students and a lot of high school students, and I always get permission from the parents before I give this message. And you guys know this probably better than anybody in the world.

19:25
I believe when the kids are looking at colleges, they have to look at the fit for themselves too. It’s not just about the college accepting you, but it also has to be about you accepting the college and what they’re willing to offer you. And it depends on the client. Some parents, not every parent thinks that way, but you want to set them up for success. mean, every parent wants to set their kids up for success.

19:51
But that is definitely one thing with executive function and with ADHD, you want to make sure it’s a good fit. You’re not in, if you’re emotionally dysregulated and you’re in a high boilerplate, you know, situation, that’s obviously not going to be the right fit for the kid. Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, that’s definitely how we approach it. academic, social, cultural fit, the most important. I mean, they have to be set up for success and they don’t sort of leading into my next question. They don’t have the support system.

20:20
that they have in high school even to kind of get through that. as we were just talking about, we’re working with kids who are about to make their way to college. So do you have any advice for us on what tips can you give our parents and kids and clients to focus on before they leave for college to prepare themselves the best they can?

20:44
um And how might you talk about the difference between the kind of support they’ll have while they’re at home and in high school and what the college environment is going to look like for them? Yeah, that’s such a good question. Removing the scaffolding little by little is the best thing that a parent can do. And I think it’s very um generational. I’m a Gen X and I was raised

21:11
to be resourceful and to do things myself and to hustle. And I think that um a lot of parents today think that giving their kids the latitude is doing them a disservice and they want to help it and make it easier for them. But that’s actually the worst thing in my opinion that a parent can do. Because we want, you the saying, if you teach a man to fish,

21:40
If you give a man officially to me and if you teach a man officially for a lifetime. So I think that applies really well with executive functioning. So to just really. Support them and shift gradually away from doing for them to coaching. And the sooner these shifts happen, the better they’ll be prepared to go away. So when I say shifting from manager to coach in middle school.

22:09
You think about parents reminding their kids about doing their homework and they’re checking their grades and they’re helping them organize their materials. So in high school, um it helps if you’re asking reflective questions instead of giving the answers. Like, what’s your plan to get this project done? uh Hardest thing to do, but letting those natural consequences happen within safe limits and not micromanaging. So you can see.

22:35
What happens? Is it a maturity? Is it an ability? Do they need support? And it depends on each kid. um I think probably my biggest piece of advice would be having the kids use tools at reliably and consistency. So things like a planner or a digital calendar. So some kids work better with paper. Some people work better online. Most kids are online.

23:04
But I always tell my clients, you know what system works best? And they’re like, what? The one that works for you and the one that you stick to, rely on. Also not relying on that working memory. Like when we’re young, we can remember 15 things until you stop sleeping. And so, you know, why make it harder than it has to be? So why rely on that working memory?

23:33
Use that sticky note, use that external source. Think another one, time management. Just when kids are in high school, they have so much scheduled time. And in college, they’re not. So helping them imagine what a day might look like in college. And I always talk about putting anchors in your day. So make sure you’re getting up at a reasonable time, at least one day on the weekend. ah

24:02
you know, going to bed, like making sure that they’re establishing those routines. And then also really helping them with problem solving. You know, I didn’t turn to my homework, what should I do? Well, what do you think you should do? You know, how can you approach this? So helping them not realize that they should know how to do it, but it’s a tool that they have to build. The last one I would say is emotional regulation, which people don’t always.

24:30
considered to be an executive function, but it is a huge one. What do you do when you get overwhelmed? What are your deficits? And helping them work through those things. Because I think like we didn’t talk about this when we were growing up, but our kids are so well-versed in speaking about, you some kids, a lot of kids are well-versed in speaking about their feelings. So.

24:54
What are their tools and what are the tools that they can lean on when they’re overwhelmed or they’re stressed or they’re anxious or depressed or whatever the things are. Debbie, those are great ideas for how a parent can help transition to college. But I think it’s also important to note just what do you do to get accommodations in college? Because that’s also a really big thing that we get a lot of questions from. So what we typically tell students is that and families is that

25:18
First of all, you have to have a WASC-IV, which is an adult assessment. It’s a neuropsych exam to demonstrate that you have a need for accommodations and that’s something that you’ve been able to use in high school to be more successful in your academics. So, and that has to happen once a student is 16. So that’s something that is important to note if you’re thinking about getting accommodations, you want to make sure that your last neuropsych exam has been a WASC-IV and when you’re 16.

25:46
And then when looking at colleges, we recommend that you often visit the Office of Disabilities because that will give you an idea of how comfortable you are as a student going in there, getting help, meeting with various advisors to help you. Many instances, they can help you manage your schedule, manage your assignments, help you break things down, really work on those executive functioning skills.

26:13
So the way to think about it is there’s three levels of services that are offered at colleges. There are services, which is just that they offer services and you have to request them. There are coordinated services, which is sort of like the middle range. And then there’s support programs. And those are programs that have special offices dedicated to helping students with learning differences, students with executive function. There typically is a chart, an additional charge. Sometimes I get a school like Marist.

26:42
You have to actually be admitted into the program. But often it’s really a matter of helping students typically that first year manage the transition and go through learning executive function skills, how they can manage their time. It’s really more about the executive functioning skills rather than the academics. So that’s an important thing to just note. And the other thing that’s different between high school and colleges

27:07
is that in high schools you’ll have a 504 or you’ll have an IEP and a dependent educational plan. In colleges you don’t really have that. But it is good if you’ve had that support in high school to have it documented so that when you go to colleges you can request to get either extended time on tests, to get distraction free rooms, sometimes you can get note takers. There’s a lot of different things you can get if there’s a reading situation and you need help.

27:34
with reading there’s a Kurzweil which will read now that we don’t really have textbooks that much anymore, but can read things for you. It’s a lot easier now with all the adaptive tools. But those are some of the accommodations that you can get that the college itself will provide. It reminds me, Abby, of one of those twins that we worked with, remember? And at the time, we were working with two twins and one of them had ADHD, executive function problems, and he was in the wrong school for sure. He was in the wrong high school. It was good for his…

28:03
twin brother but not for him. And he had a ton of support. He was constantly having to go in and meet with the, you know, the student support person and he pretty much had everything regulated for him. He was a super creative kid, really artistic, and I saw that right away. And he actually wrote his essay about how he got rid of all of the support. And when he started taking back his own life and started making the choices for himself,

28:33
he just soared. I mean, he did incredibly well, and he ended up going to Syracuse and doing incredibly well there and was now working in a creative field. So he just wasn’t in the right place, but he knew what he needed to do. So just as you were talking about that, it reminded me of that essay and that student. uh Sorry, I got chills in my whole body, and I would love to interview him for my son. I’d ask him because he is, I keep up with him and

29:01
He is soaring. He’s four years post-college or three years, three and a half years post-college now, uh still soaring. Yeah. Once he got in the right place, he just soared. I love that. That’s amazing. And it’s so hopeful. I think it’s so tough for these kids when they’re going through it. But when they work so hard for it and they see that payoff, it’s beautiful.

29:30
It seems like it’s a matter, I like a lot of what you said about, what everyone said about stigma because I have two brothers and two sons. I know nothing about girls, literally, even though I have some female clients. I’m a boy, mom, a boy person, but this road can be really rough for them because they, think boys are very uncomfortable when they don’t have control. I think that’s just a natural thing.

29:55
uh, you know, speaking not as an expert, but just anecdotally across all the, all the people that I dealt with. And when, and I would, I would say that, um, applied to the young man that Lisa’s talking about too. He saw himself once he couldn’t control everything because he got overwhelmed in high school. He thought he was, he was in the wrong high school, by the way, also something else that you said Debbie, but aside from that, he probably could have navigated his way through if he’d figured out this, that he was a creative. He had no idea by the way.

30:23
That he was a creative I mean he had absolutely no idea he thought he was supposed to be doing like math and science whatever so if he had somehow realized that he might have been able to navigate that high school but he was in the wrong place but um you know he just felt like a failure it’s so hard to get it out of that and so sort of talking about this openly but also talking about hopeful stories. Where.

30:46
people become hyper successful, I think is just really helpful to kids who are starting to go through this. Cause I feel like those boys who realize this is their issue when they get to high school, they’d rather sabotage themselves. Sometimes they avoid it. Yeah. They avoid doing the work cause they’re afraid that they’re not going to be successful. So it’s easier for them to do that. Yeah, I think so. So anyway, I think this is all super helpful to kind of get out in the open with specific examples of kids who’ve really thrived even more than they would have, you know, like

31:14
Lisa was saying with her husband, know, if they hadn’t, it’s a gift. You know? Yeah. Well, I think it’s interesting because I’ve had a number of kids write about having ADHD in positive way, not in the, know, sometimes it’s the, know, I didn’t know I had it and this is why I didn’t do well. And then I figured it out. But a lot of times it’s like, this has been my superpower. Like this is how I’m super creative. This is how I can really focus in and hyper-focus on a certain area. And in fact, I remember reading a book

31:40
blog post from one of my clients, he graduated a bit ago, probably in 2019, I want to say graduated from college, he went to Yale. So was a super talented young man, musician, and he ended up working in social media. And he just was able to harness all of his creative juices and all of his superpowers of hyper-focus. And he said, like, I love to go from task to task to task to task, and this is what I do at work.

32:09
So it’s once you get out of the school where you’re so narrow-minded in terms of what you have to do and you could really unleash it, then it does become a superpower. So just interesting. I love that. And I do think with work, everybody can be a success story. Yeah. I agree. I would go back to Mad Men. mean, when you watch Mad Men, right? It’s like now you have people, now you have whatever. You have AI companions that will dictate what you’re saying. But in the old days,

32:38
you had somebody, all of these people that probably had ADHD, had secretaries or assistants, and they would just spitball all of the stuff. And then that assistant would take that information and type it up and make sense of it. And, you know, not having that anymore. If you look at Mad Men, I’m sure all those people had ADHD. Totally. No, totally. And I think with regard to this stigma comment, everybody in today’s day and age has something.

33:07
It’s always my approach to be very open because you never know what someone else is going through. And it’s like, it’s just a thing. It’s like, you have diabetes, you treat it, have ADHD, you treat it, have anxiety, depression, whatever it is. So I think it’s very common. And Lisa, I love your point about, Abby, like, maybe using your strengths to harness your power.

33:36
Like for me, switching from a corporate executive and I did really well in my career, but I have impulsivity. So for me to work at a company like American Express and be very much a, you know, a corporate person was not the right fit for me, even though I was really successful at my job. So like I’m a perfect example of, you know, talk about wanting to go from thing to thing, you know, one hour is business development. Another hour it’s coaching, another hour it’s doing a podcast. So.

34:05
I think in today’s day and age with there being so many opportunities, it’s just about being resourceful to find what works for your client. Agreed. And being lucky enough to have somebody’s support, whether it’s a teacher or a parent or someone to give you the confidence to chase what you know is right, might know what is right for you. But I think it’s hard to just, yeah. Yeah. I think that’s huge is to have someone

34:32
in your corner at least one and then what that turns into for you is huge. Yeah. Going back to the kids who are going to college, what would you say to parents about what the best way to support their kids who have executive functioning issues? How can they best support them from afar without compromising their independence? Yeah. And that’s a great question.

35:01
because these pitfalls happen when there’s so much independence. You they’re going from like we were saying before, being over scheduled to having all the time in the world. So helping their kids stick to a routine, not getting their days and nights mixed up, committing to the gym a certain number of times a week. I think helping them slot in their calendar what they need to do. So then what they want to do becomes the dessert.

35:30
and not the shiny object. I think also just keeping an open dialogue with their child about how they’re doing, what’s going well, what can be improved, and helping the kid. Like you can be there as a sounding board, but letting them drive the solutions to help foster that independence themselves. think one other thing is uh encouraging the child to check into the resources that the college provides.

35:57
most colleges do have an office of disability support or like academic success centers that the kids could access. And when I was doing my research for this, I was shocked to find very few kids actually use these resources. Yeah, they’re all available. I mean, I think when I first started doing this, actually, Stephanie’s mom used to work with me and she was the LD support to work with students who had

36:25
needed learning support. So we had all this information on it and now it’s really blossomed. mean every college does have support and they do have accommodations for students but it’s really a matter of accessing those. So what do you do? So as a parent you’re going to provide advice or you’re going to and even if you do it in a very mentor-y way rather than a directive way but then you know they get off to college right and then everything can fall apart.

36:54
So what do you see as some of the biggest challenges? Because we see kids who come to us who hit the screen when they got to college and then they need to regroup and try to transfer. What are some of the pitfalls that you see for kids when they go off to college? And how do you think we can either anticipate or help manage them? I think it’s really just learning how to be their own life manager. Proper nutrition, adequate sleep.

37:23
enough hydration, being proactive, staying on top of things. So really just like fostering that before they go and then continuing it as they go. At our lunch, I wanna bring up something that I really liked. We were asking you, or you mentioned that sometimes they don’t, and you’ve said this too, that they don’t know the supports that are available to them. But one specific support that you brought up, the frog example,

37:52
which we really loved. So can you describe that, not just the frog example, but what are some other effective tools that you give students to help them? So the Eat the Frog is a prioritization tool. So it’s based on a quote from Mark Twain, which is, if it’s your job to eat a frog, it’s best to do it first thing in the morning. If it’s your job to eat two frogs, it’s best to eat the biggest frog of all. So

38:19
Basically, the frog is your aid priority. So if you imagine breaking up a sheet into four sections, you have your aid priority, your frog, that’s your must do. And then you have a should do, a nice to do, and a not necessary. Another one is the Eisenhower matrix. And in addition to being executive function coach, I’m also an executive and career coach. I work with C-suite executives who are like, I don’t know how to break down my day if I’m not scheduled meeting to meeting.

38:49
And these very, very successful people. So the Eisenhower matrix is a two by two grid that’s broken up. The anchor points are importance and urgency. And the four points in the grid are due schedule, delegate, and delete. And so like, before I go to bed, I look at my day the next day and I plan, okay, prep for webinar. That was my frog this morning.

39:18
or whatever the thing is, if I don’t do today, my day is going to fail. And so then it becomes very objective. These are my plans, and this is what I have to do today. And I wouldn’t say put a million things on there, but what are the things that I’m actually going to get done? So a prioritization tool, I think, is really important. Other tools. So one area you asked before about

39:46
where I see pitfalls when people go to college, accountability. know, kids are so, I think like because of COVID and because of life, there’s less accountability on kids today than there was historically in my observation. And so one good tool is body doubling. So that’s where you work with a friend, like you might go to the library for an hour together and you can sit side by side at a carol, do they still have carols at libraries?

40:14
I do. In the drags, I think in the basement, right? So you sit side by side, you don’t have to be working on the same thing. But it is like we are going to go to the library and we are going to work for two hours. And what you can do to keep yourself like to keep that energy sustained is something called the Pomodoro technique. And that’s work for 25 minutes, you take a five minute break and you do that four times and then you take a 20 minute break.

40:43
So the benefit of that is that you’re able to build stamina. You can be focused in short bursts and you use timers and hold yourself accountable to follow through and restart after each break. That’s the tricky part. But ah there are all these other little things. mean, there are websites that you can sign up for, like Focusmate, where you can body double with somebody. And I’ve done it before with clients and I was very frankly like,

41:12
annoyed that I had to take the time to do it. But then I actually ended up being really, um it works, like it works really well. And, you know, I just went on mute and I turned off my camera and I set the timer for 25 minutes, I will take me back, I asked my client how it gone. And now I do it occasionally with clients, or I do with friends who come over and will body double except no talking. And we focus.

41:41
My daughter did that when she had to study for the MCATS. There was a site where you could just go on and it was just a random person. She doesn’t have ADHD, but she just wanted somebody to be accountable. So it didn’t feel so arduous to be studying for such a big test. That’s amazing. Was that a formal thing that was set up? It’s a formal thing. I don’t know. It was just a website. You just go on and there’s somebody sitting there on the screen and they’re just in the background and then you’re doing your work. They’re doing their work. You don’t really talk to them. It was just, you knew that.

42:09
Like you had company when you were trying to do something that was challenging. It also holds accountable to like actually sit there for two hours if you sign up for a slot. Right, so if someone’s there and you know that they’re there and that was kind of what it was, yeah. OK, that’s a genius use of technology, right? Sometimes, sometimes technology is the worst, but that is totally genius. Yeah. And speaking of technology, I feel like we have to talk about social media for a second.

42:37
um at least, although social media is sort of the bane of my existence. But anyway, so what do you see as the connections between executive functioning and social media? Like, do you see it as something that gets in the way of kids’ focus and students’ focus? Or are there ways that you see it as a positive thing in a student’s life? I think both. I think for someone with executive function deficits and ADHD, technology can be a big struggle.

43:07
because it takes attention away from the important to the interesting. can also like, I think that a lot of kids use it as a pacifier. If I’m bored or I’m stretched or I’m challenged, I’m uncomfortable, I’m going to take a break and put in my pacifier and go on social media and

43:31
like guilty, I do it too. It’s hard because there’s also that novelty and people with ADHD are always seeking dopamine. And so that’s like to go scroll, it’s a big draw. So for someone with executive functioning skills, it can be like being on a diet and going to an all you can eat buffet, which can be a challenge, but there are some benefits that come from it.

44:00
and that is cognitive flexibility. executive function, one executive function challenge amongst some people is uh inflexibility and uh the perspective that their way is the right way. So by watching videos and seeing somebody who has a different opinion, you might learn to be more flexible or uh change your perspective or

44:28
Another benefit is like if you’re using it to learn and, you know, learn some hacks about what did your favorite influencer do when they had executive function check or not feel so alone. So there are some good things to exercise regulation and to really, you know, set a timer to prevent yourself from doom scrolling. So it’s both, but I do think it weighs heavier on being more of a distraction than a benefit.

44:59
Sounds like timers are a big thing for people with executive functions. Setting the timers so that you know exactly what you need to do, when you need to do it, and it doesn’t seem… Now we actually tell students, just all of our students, so we get into the crunch time of getting all of their essays to set a timer or just to spend 30 minutes, commit to 30 minutes a day, every day, to work on their essays and just undistracted. I don’t know how many people listen, but I do think those that do, they get a lot more done because then it’s not this like, oh, I have to write.

45:27
I need three hours to write all these essays. Just like spend a little bit of time each day and you’ll chip away at it. And I think that’s a really. And it’s like, and for neurotypicals when they get in that habit, it sticks. It really helps build stamina. It helps them focus. I like that one a lot. Like I tell my clients if they’re trying to organize themselves to set a timer for like 25 minutes, do one room. And then if you’re still excited to do more,

45:56
set a timer for another 20 minutes. Sometimes it’s just getting started. I I know when I, I I my book, was a while, it was like 10 years ago, maybe longer than, but I just, said, okay, I’m going to spend, I think it was an hour a day. And then it just like forced me to just sit down and do it. And then I did it. It was like, it wasn’t that hard. was just getting started was always the hardest part of it. 100%.

46:22
So what are some, we always like to end or start with myths and truths. So what are some myths and truths about ADHD, EF, or executive functioning? I think my favorite one is that strong intelligence doesn’t mean strong executive function and low intelligence doesn’t mean weak executive function. Intelligence doesn’t predict EF performance. I can both struggle with the organization while

46:51
people with the lower IQ might have amazing executive function skills. So I think that that’s a big one. Another one you hit on before that executive function, the myth is executive dysfunction is laziness or character flaw. And that couldn’t be further from the truth. It stems from differences in brain development of function um and it affects our ability to manage tasks. It’s not a lack of effort. Last one.

47:21
that it’s a childhood issue, it’s only a childhood issue, ah unfortunately. It can persist into adulthood, but like we said, with work and building those neural pathways, you can turn it into a spring. Absolutely, yeah. All right, well, thank you. Thank you, Debbie, for being here and thank you, CBMers for tuning in.

47:44
You gave us a lot to think about, a lot to process. So we really appreciate you taking the time to speak with us. um You could um catch more episodes of CBM, of College Bound Mentor, make sure to follow or subscribe on your favorite podcast and tell a fellow parent or student about the podcast. If you like what you hear, please give a review because that will help us get it out to more people. And to learn more, visit CollegeBoundMentor.com. Until next time, you got this!

The post The ADHD Effect with ADHD & Executive Functioning Coach Debbie White – College Bound Mentor Podcast #43 appeared first on College Bound Mentor.

This is Episode #42 and you’ll hear us talk about uncovering student aptitudes and aligning them with majors and careers with Betsy Wills and Alex Ellison, authors of Your Hidden Genius. Listen to the episode on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, and your other favorite podcast spots – follow and leave a 5-star review if you’re enjoying the show!

• Episode Summary & Player
• Show Notes
• Learn more about the College Bound Mentor podcast
• Transcript

College Bound Mentor Podcast Episode #42: Your Hidden Genius with Betsy Wills & Alex Ellison

How can your student figure out what they want to major in? How about what they want to do in life? It might be time to find their hidden genius. In this episode, we welcome on Betsy Wills & Alex Ellison, Authors of Your Hidden Genius: The Science-Backed Strategy to Uncovering and Harnessing Your Innate Talents. Betsy is the Co-Founder of YouScience and Alex is the Founder of Throughline Guidance. Here’s a small sample of what you’ll hear in this episode:

• How to find your aptitudes
• How to use your aptitudes to align with your major or career
• How important it is to go into college confident in your major or career
• How to turn a student away from a particular field – gracefully
• And how parents can help students find their hidden genius

Subscribe to College Bound Mentor on your favorite podcast platform and learn more at CollegeBoundMentor.com.

Check out the episode and show notes below for much more detail.

Show Notes

• Your Hidden Genius with Betsy Wills & Alex Ellison
  • [00:19] Welcome to the College Bound Mentor
  • [00:49] Betsy’s background and founding YouScience
  • [01:14] Alex’s work in guidance counseling and career readiness
  • [02:10] Why the hosts use YouScience and what the book adds
  • [02:39] How Betsy and Alex met and why they wrote Your Hidden Genius
  • [04:04] The origin of YouScience and making aptitude testing accessible
  • [06:46] The “core four” aptitudes and what they measure
  • [08:10] Idea generation styles and why opposites work well together
  • [10:58] How YouScience combines core aptitudes with additional “amplifiers”
  • [15:23] Numerical reasoning vs. “being good at math,” and why students self-select out
  • [22:45] Using career matches as patterns as jobs evolve quickly
  • [25:20] How to use aptitude results differently by age and revisit them over time
  • [29:56] YourHiddenGenius.com resources and ways to apply results
  • [31:50] Going into college with direction and curiosity
  • [43:27] Using O*NET to understand what careers actually involve day to day
  • [46:40] Finding fulfillment beyond one job through hobbies and other outlets
  • [49:02] Wrap-up and where to find more episodes and resources
  • Theme Song: “Happy Optimistic Americana” by BDKSonic

What is the College Bound Mentor podcast?

Lisa, Abby, and Stefanie know college. They also know students. With over 30 years combined experience mentoring young people, they’ll show you why understanding yourself is the key to finding the right college. Each episode, hear trends, case studies, and interviews with students who have gone through it all – giving you valuable insight to survive the college application process and beyond. Hosted by Lisa Bleich, Abby Power, and Stefanie Forman, Partners of College Bound Mentor.

Transcript

Please note: this transcript is not 100% accurate.

00:00
I think it’s very important to go in with some idea, but it’s also important to go in with a sense of curiosity.

00:19
Hey, CBMers, welcome back to College Bound Mentor, where we help you survive the college application process and beyond. We’re your co-hosts, Lisa, Abby, and Stefanie. And on today’s episode, we are super excited to chat with Betsy Wills and Alex Ellison, authors of the book, Your Hidden Genius, the science-backed strategy to uncovering and harnessing your innate tapas. And I have book right here. There was actually a very long waiting list at the library to get this book, so I had to uh put my time in.

00:49
uh So Betsy, just to give you a little background about our guest, Betsy Wills is the co-founder of YouScience and National Online-based Education and Career Platform, headquartered in American Fork, Utah. She is a regular guest lecturer at Vanderbilt University and New York University Stern School of Business and has been featured speaker for TEDx Women. Formerly, she was a director of marketing and branding at Diversity Trusts and a wealth management firm. She serves on the advisory board.

01:14
of the Peggy Gung Hei Museum in Venice and the Music City Center Authority in Nashville, Tennessee. Betsy is a graduate of Vanderbilt University and holds a Master’s of Education in Human Resource Development from Peabody College. Alex Ellison is an educational consultant with a private guidance counseling practice, which has enabled her to work with schools, nonprofits, and families across the country. She writes and lectures extensively on the subject of careers and college readiness and has been a feature speaker on South by Southwest and TEDx.

01:42
She is the author of Go Your Own Way, Seven Student-Centered Paths for the Best College Experience, and the creator of Go Your Own Way Student Archetyped Quiz, used in schools and by individuals to jumpstart their college search. holds a degree in German and business from Northwestern University and a master’s in public policy from the University of Nevada. So welcome. Thank you so much for having It’s like the podcast is over now. I know. I know. We’ve got so much information, which is great.

02:10
But I have to say that we have used you science, you with our clients for many years. And I was really excited to read your book, as I said when I reached out to you, because I think that, you know, we always go over it with them, but just to understand the nuances of how really to interpret the data at a much more granular level, I found it really fascinating and really interesting. And so when I read it, I thought, hey, I Betsy and Alex would make a great guest on our pod. And of course, you guys are great. So we were super happy to do that.

02:39
So why don’t you just start us off, tell us a little bit of how you guys met and what prompted you guys to write this book. We met during the famous COVID days uh because both of us were thinking, you what could we do here? And uh I had wanted to write a book about new science to add, like you said, more information about the nuances behind the results. I think there was a crying need for that. And so I found Alex because she had already written a book.

03:07
that included information about you science. And so she was the perfect candidate to discuss this with plus the fact that she is 30 years younger than me. And so I really was so excited. think that’s right. I think I know not that much younger than 20 years. I don’t know a lot. Generations. Once I get past certain point, it’s enough, right? But Betsy’s biological age is like 22. maybe, but I mean,

03:36
We really did want to bring two generations of voices because as you know, your aptitudes don’t change throughout your life. And so uh it was great because we wanted to speak to people of all ages about what their results meant. And so that’s how we got together. Amazing. So backing up even a little further, Betsy, how did you come up with the idea and the sort of execution of the U Science platform?

04:04
Well, it really all started because when I was 32, I had been home with my children, fortunate enough to stay home with my young children, and I was ready to go back to work. And so a good friend recommended I go to Johnson O’Connor and have my aptitudes assessed. And as most people do not know, it’s very expensive to do that. It’s about a thousand dollars. It takes two days. was, I was very lucky to get to go and it was a game changer for me.

04:33
And that’s when I started noodling over the fact that why doesn’t everybody have this information? It wasn’t a plot, that it was simply the fact that technology didn’t allow us to give objective assessments online at scale. And so once that that opportunity came up really around 2010, when computing power allowed us to do that, we saw the opportunity, myself and the other co-founders to bring this very expensive assessment online and make it affordable for everybody.

05:03
That’s pretty amazing. I love the idea of the accessibility, which is a problem all over education. really democratized it. mean, so when I started my practice in 2013, I searched like many consultants and advisors do, searched high and low for like a really valid tool that was comprehensive, that didn’t look like a Buzzfeed quiz, you know? And so, and I love all the assessments. Like I was a fan of Enneagram and Myers-Briggs and all the things, but I wanted something that was really

05:32
scientifically grounded to help students take a more objective look at themselves, right? And so that’s when I started using you science right from the beginning. And so it became just such an indispensable tool in my practice. it’s the very first thing I have everybody do. I couldn’t see it any other way. Interesting. Yeah, we have kids do it as usually like their sophomore or junior year.

05:58
And it just gives them a really good insight into who they are and what their aptitudes are. And that’s why we like it so much for the same reason. Alex, we just found we wanted something we were using some of the other things as well, like your strengths finder and various versions of Myers-Briggs. But we just found this was such a great tool that was science-backed and also very clear. And we liked the way that you could go in and find careers that match, et cetera.

06:25
And that’s why I the book was so helpful because it did help you understand those nuances. But let’s just take a step back for people who aren’t familiar with youth science and let’s talk about like the core four, right? You have the core four. How did you come up with those four? And so let’s just want to say what they are and then how you came up with them.

06:46
Okay, so the core four, and again, this is not an assessment you science even made up. This has been so researched for since the 1940s, really. But the core four are the four aptitudes that really give us the most information about where we’re gonna find the most satisfaction in our jobs and life. So those are spatial ability, which most people do not know whether where they fall on that continuum, inductive reasoning, which is our ability to take

07:15
a lot of ambiguous information and draw a conclusion under time pressure. Some people can do that really fast and some people they need more time. Neither one is bad or good. The third one is sequential reasoning, which is effectively how we uh create order, whether we do that in our head or we use tools to do that. Some people just create logic and order in their head and other people

07:41
They really do rely on calendars and organizational tools to do it more often. And then the last one is idea rate. And we love talking about this because uh Alex and I are so different when we on the score of idea rate. And I’ll let you explain what that means, Alex. Yeah, this was the one when I first took you science, I was 25. I saw my result here and I was like for idea generation and I score is what’s called a concentrated focuser.

08:10
And I thought to myself that meant that I didn’t have good ideas and I was very offended and I was like, what is, what? I have great ideas. And then when I was talking to Betsy about this, you know, was about, I think 2018, 2019, when we first started talking about this, it became clear to me that I want to pull my hair out when I’m in meetings that are going on and on and on with just a lot of brainstorming and no action, right? So.

08:37
implementation has been a driving force in my life. You know, I’m like, okay, I get an idea. I’m going to go with it. I pretty much bought the first wedding dress I tried on, you know, like I don’t like to sit and ruminate for very long with a lot of ideas. And so there’s good and bad that comes with that, right? Just like all of these, have to be managed. Betsy is the opposite. She’s what’s called a brainstormer. And she’s a bit like a blender where the top has just flown off and like

09:05
ideas are just going all over the place, which can be super exciting, but you also have to be able to then like gather and collect the splattering of ideas, right? And then execute and implement. So that push and pull between the two extremes actually is very frustrating sometimes, but does lead to a better product in the end. And in our case, it was a book, but it can be stressful, but it was such a great example of how sometimes

09:34
actually most of the time you do want to work with your opposite when it comes to these aptitudes. That push and pull leads to a better outcome and pushes you to grow and evolve too. Well, that was actually something I was thinking about when you break down those, the core into more and we’ll talk about a little later. But have you used this at all with companies for team building? Because when I used to be the director of recruitment for City Search, to come out to online City Search,

10:00
And so they wanted an assessment. This was not available at the time when I was doing this. And so we brought in predictive index. I’m not sure if you’re familiar with that, but it was a similar type of assessment. And we would look at that for various roles and then teams and how you would put people together. Have you found that corporate use? We have, we have. On our website, actually, there’s lots of resources for corporate teams to use this or families to use it. Lots of different applications.

10:29
I even had a boyfriend and girlfriend couple come up to me and ask me if I could help them talk through their aptitudes. Tell them, talk if you become a marriage counselor. Yeah, full disclosure, I’m not a marriage counselor, but it was really insightful, you know? Yeah, aptitudes affect everything. They really do. But I mean, back to sort of the core four, again, inductive reasoning, spatial visualization, sequential reasoning, and then idea generation. Those four really give us a lot of information about where we’re going to be most satisfied.

10:58
and really successful in our lives. So that’s why we really emphasize those. There are actually 52 different aptitudes you could measure. Most people don’t realize that. Thank goodness we don’t measure all 52 in the science because we’d be there forever. But what we the way you science is built is we chose the 14 that really affect us most. And those core four being the foundational piece and then the others being the icing on the cake.

11:27
that give us additional information. That’s so interesting to hear the origins of it. And Alex, you made me think about something because I also bought the second dress. Well, not the first dress, but the second wedding dress I bought, it was in the same setting. So now I’m going to in a deep dive about what that means. I would love if you could tell us how your book has informed the use of you science.

11:54
Well, I think, you know, for definitely in the counseling community and, you know, I, as a counselor, I would talk to a lot of colleagues who would say, I love you science. I feel like I understand it and I see its power, but I’m struggling in like communicating it through anecdotes and examples and other language with the students and clients I work with. And so that was one of our highest goals, right? With this book was.

12:20
so that it could be a tool to give you that language, that vocabulary, and these really rich anecdotes to use to help you understand your aptitudes, but also to help those you’re working with or to help uh your team understand their results as well. And so we really put a ton of time into just even building a matrix of folks who we wanted to interview for this book to make sure there was a really

12:48
really big swath of the population so that everyone could see themselves, every reader could see themselves in at least one of these stories. So that was really important to us. And actually, so let’s talk about some of those examples that you break out, you you break out the core into then three segments, which I always find interesting because sometimes, and you’re very careful to say like, one is not better than the other. These are just the ways that you approach things because sometimes people think,

13:13
Oh, I got the, you know, I got the top one. So that means that it’s better, but it’s really clear that it’s not a matter of better or worse. And I think that’s a really good point that you always make. But you gave the example of was a Betsy, I think it was you Betsy. It was you and your husband planning a trip and how each of you approach it.

13:27
with different results. I guess your husband is more of the investigator and you’re more of the diagnostic problem solver. Was that good? Yeah, no, it’s terrible. But yeah, so again, it’s counterintuitive for people to understand that aptitudes are not good or bad in and of themselves or the, know, so we use that uh in the book. We talk about that one inductive reasoning there. I am a diagnostic problem solver, which means I love to make a decision under time pressure.

13:56
And if there’s not time pressure, boy, I might even create some like a crisis just for the thrill. It’s that person who’s going to put off starting the paper to the night before because they quote unquote do their best work. That’s, know, kind of, we have those kids, we have a lot of those. And that comes in huge handy if you’re going to be in an emergency room position, a physician or an EMT, a lot of jobs really take advantage of that.

14:26
but it’s not so helpful if you’re misusing it. And so that’s, you we always talk about the challenges of wherever you fall, there’s going to be advantages and challenges. So in the book, I’m someone who loves to make that decision, the snap decision, and we were on a trip. My husband will labor a decision over and over. He’ll check every fact. And at one point I was just tired of it because I said, you know, we’re going on this trip. We need to be more carefree. Let me plan the Paris part of this.

14:56
anniversary trip. And so I just went on the internet and I found some hotels like boom, I’m just picking it and we got there. And of course, it was it should have been, you know, condemned actually, this one hotel. And he said that article you read that he was like 20 years old that was posted and I didn’t check that we’ve learned, you know, from each other quite a bit uh when I should make use of that attitude and other times to let him have the ball.

15:23
I think we had a particular interest in amplifiers because we have a lot of clients. I mean, I hear this, especially from young women. I hate to stereotype, but unfortunately I think the whole system is sort of directs young women away from analytical STEM and all that. But so it was particularly fascinating to read about this idea of numerical reasoning and

15:50
We loved how you showed how people who don’t always think of themselves as math people can actually score high on that aptitude. And there was one particular example, DJ, I think it was. Patel. And he had thought of himself as being terrible at math. We hear that all the time. I’m bad at math. can’t be math. I have to say, had a client, this is a long time ago. She graduated about five years ago. um

16:16
She went to Berkeley as a Sanskrit and English major, Sanskrit, like the ancient yoga language, whatever you know. Told me she hated math. She ended up being a data science and math major. I just couldn’t, my mind was blown. We see so many of those. Yeah, I think what we need to parse for people is the difference between applied math, which is like statistics, data analysis, trend analysis, that’s applied math.

16:43
which is what we assess in the uh assessment. It’s called well, numerical reasoning. People are often surprised because they do so well at that and they think of themselves and usually they’ve had a poor math teacher or they’re doing math. That’s you know, it’s theoretical math more like algebra calculus, which is wonderful too. If you can do that, but it doesn’t preclude you from jobs that are uh using science and data. My gosh. And that’s the exact

17:13
economy we’re entering now. we find, you know, new science is over seven and a half million people that they’ve assessed. So we’ve got a lot of data and what we know um studies at universities have looked at the data and animal animalized data. Is that the right word? And it’s not individual data. Yeah. Yeah. And what they find that women tend to express interest in traditional roles on huge amounts.

17:43
but they actually have more aptitude for a lot of these computer science jobs than men. And so- to hear that. Yeah, so you really need to change the conversation, which is one of the big goals of the book and new science is to encourage people to rethink by seeing their own data and their own results of what their possibilities are. Because women tend to leave a lot on the table, honestly.

18:09
And they’re self-assessing themselves out of occupations that they’re actually very well suited for. And I agree with you, Abby, I saw this so many times anecdotally in my practice, mostly with girls who would come in with this big stamp on their forehead that they’d put on there that said, suck at math. And I was just like, this is, and my favorite thing was to then give them youth science, have it inevitably debunk their,

18:39
personal judgment and just kind of see what their faces did and see the change on their face and see the change then and what they chose to what they would then choose to go into what classes they then felt confident to take what majors they then felt confident to pursue. I mean it could really change the course of your life, know and DJ Patel. know he was the first data that we talked about him in the book. He was the first chief data scientist under Barack Obama.

19:05
And it was so funny, he was talking about in high school, he just was so not interested in math. Like, and this is a guy who ended up getting a PhD in like mathematics. So I’m becoming the chief data scientist, you know, so it just is such a great example of how our self judgments can be so wrong. And we can really, our own biases can really work against ourselves. Yeah. Now I really wish that I’d thought about doing that with these young, I am for sure. 100 % for certain doing it the next time.

19:34
Please do. But I’ve had five young women over the last, you know, call it 10 years where, I mean, I hated doing this, but they weren’t going to make it to calculus by senior year, which is critical to go to highly selective schools. I’ve had to have them take pre calc over the summer, which is like the last thing you want to make a kid do. But you also don’t want them to get left behind for no good reason. And they’re mapped apart. You know, they just were.

20:01
convinced that you have to really be serious about math. But I never, never had a boy counseled out of calculus, not once. That’s interesting. Yeah, no, it’s a shame really. think we have, if we can push that problem. I had a girl come into my office actually, I worked in a financial firm as well. And she had taken new science 10 years ago in high school.

20:27
and she bounced into the office. She’s absolutely in finance now and said, you’re the reason this, this assessment was the reason 10 years ago, I went into accounting, which changed my life forever. So, um, I hope people take their scores to heart. Now you may not have an interest, you know, that’s real. You know, sometimes we have aptitudes for things, but really we can’t even develop an interest. So that’s, you know, that’s going to happen as well, but it’s what we are not giving our chance.

20:56
ourselves the chance to explore. It is so important about your results. Yeah, okay. Definite note to self. Now I have a solve for my problem. Well, I was gonna say just following up on that. And then I think Steph wants you to walk through how to actually do this. But my youngest daughter was took youth science in high school, but didn’t really take it seriously. And then she had graduated from college and she was working like in an

21:24
her entry level job, you know, for a year or so and really was unhappy. And so I said, why don’t you take you science? And she did it very seriously and she looked at it. And then we get the results back and the results were not anything that we ever expected. And we kind of dismissed them. We’re like, okay, this is the first time it doesn’t make sense. So she got, she should be an engineer or she should be a doctor. My middle daughter is a doctor. She got that as you science that make total sense, but not for my youngest daughter.

21:50
and that she was also good for counseling and for coaching. Those were kind of the things that came up as her top things. And at the time she was a film and media studies major marketing. She was good in math. I mean, she wasn’t bad in math, but it wasn’t like engineering math, right? And so fast forward, she ends up getting another job. And I said, you know, why don’t we lean into this? You know, maybe get uh a certificate in data analytics because that seems to be oh a skill that you’re gonna need no matter what you end up doing.

22:17
And then now she’s been the she got a new job and then she’s been at for about a year and a half. And what she’s gravitated towards is data like strategy and operations. And so she’s very good at looking at patterns and analyzing the things that are going to make her customers more successful and also kind of how the operations work within her team. So even though it’s not engineering, it’s still that systems and that stuff. So now we’re kind of going back and saying, oh, I see there was a

22:45
There was not so our fetch. I think since you’re all practitioners, I do think it’s important just from the inside baseball to to tell you that even your science is having trouble keeping up with all the jobs of the future because it’s changing so quickly. So I would just urge anybody who is a counselor who’s listening, you know, take those career suggestions as a pattern.

23:10
not necessarily as a specific because there are so many uh new jobs coming on board that the analysis really hasn’t been done by the O-net database yet. And so that matching can’t happen. It’s still very useful. And engineering is one of the top things that’ll come up if you’re spatial and you’ve got some of this numerical reasoning skills as suggestions. But really, I’d say it’s think about a technical role in a company. It could be in marketing and data analysis.

23:40
That is engineering numbers and marketing data after all, in a way. She’s in a fintech company and customer success. uh She’s in the right zone, for sure. She’s in the right zone. But when we first saw her, like, okay, forget it. Now it still looks good. Yeah. Looking for common denominators, I agree, is what you want to do. And it’s sometimes also

24:03
students will feel overwhelmed, especially younger clients will feel overwhelmed sometimes when they see those career recommendations or they’ll feel totally lost, like they don’t know what these jobs are, they’ve never seen them before. And to kind of help that overwhelm, I think it is helpful to say we’re just looking for patterns, common denominators, hang tight. Things are changing. It’s so important too, because like what everyone said, just piggybacking off of

24:28
You guys, it’s just we have, we’re so rigid sometimes in the way we see ourselves and what we’re good at. And it’s so hard for us to go outside that unless we see the patterns or we do something like you science or someone tells us, you know, anyway, but I would love if you could walk us through how someone could use their aptitudes to align with the potential career or major. Like so many, I think it’s okay if you don’t know what you want to do or.

24:56
if you’re 41 like me and well, I know what I wanna do, but if you’re my age and don’t know what you want to do, but so many times students come to us, parents come to us, even when they’re freshmen in high school, like I have no idea what I’m supposed to do, my aptitudes, et cetera. So yeah, I think it’d be really helpful if you could walk us through that. Well, I’ll just start by saying, it depends on.

25:20
the age, you know, and it’s kind of like, you know, that book, The Little Prince, it lands on you differently at different stages in your life. That’s how I feel about aptitude results is you see something and interpret something different every at different stages of your life. So I love, love, love revisiting you science results with someone who I haven’t seen in a few years. Maybe they took it when they were 17 and now they’re thinking about their first job out of college and the results haven’t changed.

25:49
but their perception and their experience and their context has. And so I think for the younger uh students that people work with, going through youth science needs to feel relevant to them right now. We definitely have some kids who you guys know are like very future focused and very excited about the long-term and they’re excited to start talking about their future career in 10 years. But other students will find that very overwhelming. And so to try to show them…

26:14
how do your aptitudes show up for you now? And I like to ask, have you seen this yet? And if they say, no, I’ve never seen my three-dimensional visualization aptitude come into my daily life, let’s figure out ways for you to exercise that now through hobbies, through extracurricular activities, through that first part-time summer job, right? So making it more relevant today, because otherwise I’ve found that this will just go right over their heads if it’s not made.

26:44
contextual right now. So that’s one of the first things I like to do. But yeah, Betsy, did you want to add to that? No, I think this is great. Keep going. That’s perfect. I like what you’re about to say about revisiting. I want to hear about that. Yeah. So then when we revisit it, what’s really funny is sometimes, and it’s kind of like you don’t want to be a jerk and be like, told you so, but you it’s happened many times where youth science gives some suggestions. The student says, whatever, I already know I want to be fill in the blank.

27:13
They go try that thing. They come back to us, you know, as a 21 or 22 year old. I hated studying this or I got my first internship and I hate this industry. We go back to you science and they’re like, oh yeah, that actually now makes so much sense because I’ve fallen on my face a little bit and I’ve learned. And I again have this experience. I’ve seen a bit of the world. I’ve seen what the application of this looks like outside of the classroom. So there’s, just all becomes so much more relevant. And now we can have a more meaningful conversation.

27:42
I think, and I think Betsy agrees, talking to people in like their twenties about this is so much fun because they have enough experience to where they have context, but they’re still so open-minded and excited and enthusiastic about the future. But having said that, I mean, I’ve talked to, you know, just the other day I was talking to someone who’s 38, who’s wanting to make a career change. He’s kind of like already at the top of his field and wanting to do something different.

28:09
And that’s a really fun um conversation as well, but it looks very different, right? It’s like, how can we make small pivots and subtle shifts? For some people it’s how can I just volunteer and spend my free time using my aptitudes in a more meaningful way? I’ve talked to retired people who are like, how can I just use my aptitudes now in my avocations? So I think it depends on the audience how you’re explaining um aptitudes. But my favorite way to talk about aptitudes is…

28:36
with teams who work together, like you were mentioning earlier, right? So like, how can you as a board or as a team understand and appreciate each other’s aptitudes and balance each other out? Like Betsy and I balanced each other out when we were writing this book. That’s, I think, a really fun opportunity. Happy and Steph, you have to take the, I don’t know, have you guys taken you science? I took it when we first started. Have you guys done it? Oh, you guys- I first started. Yeah, I would love to take it again.

29:05
I took it. right. I’ll have take it again. Yeah, it’s funny that you say that because I used it with friends who have wanted to either reenter the workforce or make a transition. And I was like, Oh, well, like I had one friend who was an attorney and then she stayed home with her kids and she was looking to go back and do something. And it came up that she should go into social work or you know, something like that. And now she’s a social worker and she’s like super happy. Wow. I had another young woman who was

29:33
She’s like, oh, I think I want to be a doctor. like, she majored, she has a BFA. And I was like, well, why? Why do you want to be a doctor? said, well, let’s do science first before we figure this whole thing out. And then it turns out that no, she shouldn’t be a doctor. Like that was very, very low on her aptitudes. Yeah. She was actually in the right field. She just needed to make a little bit of a tweak. So yeah, good to reinforce that.

29:56
It’s that confidence. you know, and please, you know, I want your listeners to know on your hidden genius dot com under resources. There are so many ways to use your aptitudes in using a I to help you write your LinkedIn profile to, you know, use it with your book club, to use it lots of different ways. So please explore that. The only thing I do want to go back to, though, is I think the elephant in the room for counselors with particularly young people is

30:25
You know, college is really expensive. OK. And so I do feel like the use case for you science in high school is to try to give people optionality and open their eyes as fast as possible so that they don’t close doors with an expensive education, you know, or take a miss, you know, go down a path that and miss the opportunity to open other doors. So I would say that when you see, for instance, again, we keep talking about engineering, but

30:55
any kind of pattern show up like that, you I always urge people to, you know, really explore, talk to people in those fields as fast as they can so that they aren’t a senior in college and wishing that they’d, you know, kept a door open. So that’s the one, em you know, like you said, bestie, talking to people, that’s a really important point. I mean, you can’t,

31:21
You can’t just do you science and then make your whole life plan based on that. It’s It’s much too abstract, right? So to then, but to use that to kind of hone in a little bit and get rid of such a tyranny of options and tyranny of choices so that you have something to focus on. And then you go seek mentorship and then you go get experiences, right? You can’t, it can’t be void of experience. Right. So how important is it to go into college confident in your career or major?

31:50
I mean, I think it’s very important to go in with some idea, but it’s also important to go in with a sense of curiosity along with that. Because as you know, when you get your science results, it’s never like, you’re just going to be this, that’s it. It’s an array of things to explore. So that’s, you know, sometimes again, even a challenge for people to do because it could vary. my husband’s score was architect.

32:20
fine art photographer, uh department store logistics manager or something like that. I know, but they’re actually all the same pattern. And so, and those are three very different jobs. And he had many other suggestions as well, but we laugh about that. uh He actually could be happy in any one of those three things. What does he do? What is he doing? He actually is an architect and does high-end restoration, uh renovation.

32:49
I always talk about one of his aptitudes is he has one of the amplifiers perfect pitch, pitch discrimination, which most people think of as a musical aptitude, but it’s actually your ability to discern really fine differences in things. So this doesn’t taste right. That’s crooked. Why is the house so messy when there’s just one glass beside the sink? And let me tell you again, it’s very hard to live with.

33:18
Okay, people with perfect pitch. But the man can make a punch list like nobody else. And so in his job, it really comes in handy to have that pitch discrimination, which is an aptitude. And it informs so many things. So again, with 52 different aptitudes we can know about, they’re all gonna come into play in some way. Sort of flipping it around to almost like the negative.

33:45
I come across a lot of kids, especially with pre-med and business, who want to do that for various reasons. Business, I think is obvious because they don’t really know and their parents are in business. And I don’t know, I think I’ve gotten pretty good at spotting kids that at least in their undergraduate experience, it’s not going to make sense. I mean, I have adult friends who didn’t do pre-med and then went back post.

34:11
and did it, but you just don’t want to set them up for failure with organic chemistry and investments 101. So I don’t know, do you have experience turning someone away from some, how do you do that gracefully? Well, I was just talking to a physician who was like, some of the best doctors I know did not major in like your obvious pure science majors. And I’ve always agreed with that, but it was neat to hear it from another physician and.

34:38
I think this is just a reminder that major is not always just this linear connection to your future career, right? And I think what Betsy was saying earlier about having a sense of what the career clusters could be a good fit for you, that’s, I think, really a relief to students, but that doesn’t exactly predict your major. It does for things like architecture and engineering, but for a lot of careers out there, the major is not actually all that important.

35:06
And so I think that there’s a couple of conversations that happen. What could you see yourself getting up and going to class to study for four years? And also, what are some of the careers you could see yourself being happy in longer term? So I think that those things aren’t always totally connected and life is circuitous, right? Yeah, well, I do have a little statistic. think somebody from White Forest, who is very high up in their administration, was telling me one time that 50 % of the

35:35
freshman class at one point was coming in pre-med and then maybe 10 % graduated pre-med. So lots of twists and turns, misfires, that kind of thing. And so in the sense of, you know, can we avoid that as much as possible? Wasted time, wasted money, it is important. But I do want to point out too that you can do anything with practice. You know, if you’re determined to be a doctor or determined to, you know, pass a course,

36:03
You can do it and your aptitudes are not going to stop you um if you want to put the effort in. But the question is, what are you leaving on the table that you’re not playing to the aptitudes? And do you really want your life to be an uphill battle when you can be so successful over here using your full complement of aptitudes? That’s really it. But we never want to be a dream killer based on, you don’t have the exact pattern.

36:30
I know, but it’s worth the conversation to just say, well, what are the other things that bloomers they come into it differently and especially with medicine, it’s a pretty wide field of what you can, what you can do. Yeah. Yeah. think the way in what we do, particularly if someone has gone through their high school experience and they don’t look like they’re a good candidate for a specific program, they’re limiting their options. You know, I only want to go, you know, get into business school, but then, you know, it’s going to be more selective. You’re not positioned well.

36:57
you know, it’s hard to, you know, okay, let’s try economics with a business mind. You know, it’s a little bit hard to negotiate just the practical side of that, you know? Right. To Betsy’s point, I mean, what a shame to leave all these other things on the table because you’re unnecessarily like fixated on one path that somebody at some point in your life told you is the epitome of success, you know? And that’s such a bummer because now you’re wasting time really.

37:23
not developing and nurturing those innate aptitudes that could just lead you to a life of thriving and joy. I I think that a lot of young people, well, let’s be honest, I think most Americans equate harder to better. Like if it’s harder for me, if it’s a real struggle, that must mean it has more merit. And I think we’re trying to kind of upend that myth a little bit. Yeah, I like that. So we’ve covered age a little bit, but just in your minds,

37:53
What’s the earliest you might want to have? We work with kids from ninth grade through senior year, and then we catch up with them in college. what, ideally, at what ages would you have students do this and revisit it? Well, the tool is designed, know, our aptitudes start emerging as early as two years old, certain aptitudes, like short-term memory, for example.

38:21
which is called associated memory in the assessment. You can see spatial ability coming out pretty early. The child who’s building, you know, the new East wing of the White House in Legos. It’s pretty obvious. And then the child who you don’t even know what they’re doing, but you he starts seeing clues, but really there’s quite a few very important attitudes like inductive reasoning, sequential reasoning that are not really apparent.

38:49
till we’ve kind of started or gone through puberty. So I’d say, you it’s, can learn a lot if you give it to a seventh grader even, and you science does offer that. But in ninth grade, you can learn even more. But, you know, 17 would be certainly early enough to give it. But sometimes I think the way our education system works, you’re going to need it about 14 so that your high school path is informed by that in some cases.

39:19
But the great news about aptitudes is they do not change after puberty. And so you can take it at 17, 37, 77, and you will score with the same pattern. And that’s really another reason we wrote the book is because so many people are in some kind of career pivot or crisis or shift that there’s never a bad time to know what your aptitudes are. Yeah, that makes a ton of sense. I wish parents would take it with their kids.

39:49
I wish you could do that because I think that conversation. Maybe we should offer that and then we could work with somebody. feel like that conversation would make it so much easier because all of sudden you’re see how they’re different. It’s all about empathy and it’s all about love. when you see how you took the same exact assessment and how different you’re going to score, the conversation becomes so rich and so powerful.

40:17
Well, now we need to add family counseling to our. I mean, we already do it. Yes, we already do it, but that actually might be an interesting thing, especially if there are some similarities or things like that. Yeah, think parents would love it. mean, the shared language is really helpful. I mean, one of the things that I like to do in my counseling practice is at the end of the assessment, there’s a discussion guide that gives you language, right? In terms to describe yourself.

40:44
And in generating ideas for personal statements or really any sort of, know, even like things like cover letters, you know, for jobs, anything, you can look at those terms that describe you, pick a few, and then think of a corresponding anecdote from your life that highlights that trait, right? Because we’re trying to get people to not just use a bunch of adjectives in their writing. So what is the anecdote? What is the historical example that illustrates or highlights that trait?

41:11
And then what’s really fun, Betsy had this idea, give it to a loved one, a parent, a friend, a sibling, and have them, without seeing your favorite terms, have them circle their favorite terms to describe you, and then ask them why. Why did you choose data-driven thinker as a term that describes me? And inevitably, they’re going to have an anecdote or a story that you probably forgot about that you didn’t think was of any consequence.

41:37
And it’s a wonderful sharing opportunity. So that’s a great partner activity that we talk about. I that. That’s actually a good idea. That might be a good thing to give parents before they do the brainstorming to have them take a part of it. when you’re to college, inevitably you’re asked to write a personal statement. This just gets you that much further into what you should say about yourself or talk about yourself. yeah.

42:04
Yeah, we have brought it out at times where we’ll look at it and say, you know, in a similar way, not exactly that way, but similar. Yeah, which I think is really good. So what do you think are some myths or truths about identifying careers and majors that are best for a person? In quotes, best. Well, number one, that there’s that you’re going to have one career. Yeah. You know, I mean, I think people have to spell that myth, but it’s.

42:29
how tightly we hang on to it and how much emphasis we put on that early on that the world teaches us later. You we’re going to have many different types of careers that it’s going to take advantage of our aptitudes in different ways. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, when when I did my TEDx talk, I was really obsessed with this idea of job hopping and I’m still very obsessed with why there’s such a disconnect between what young people think in terms of how many jobs they were going to have.

42:58
and how many jobs they’ll actually have. And the data kind of proves that. I give, much like you probably do, I give an introductory like intake to my clients and ask them how many careers would you like to have in your life? And everyone says one, right? Everyone says one. And I think it’s just a fascinating example of that disconnect. The other funny disconnect is most young people I talk to say they don’t want to be chained to a computer or a desk. If you look at

43:27
so many jobs today, right? We are, we’re at desks and computers. I counseling is now a remote career, it can be, and never used to be, right? So this is changing very quickly. And one of the great resources is on the O-Net website that’s run and managed by the Department of Labor. That’s by the way, where all the data for the youth science careers comes from. You can actually go to that website and search for career context.

43:54
And see how much time do I have to talk to people in this job? How much time do I have to sit? How much time do I have to walk? How much time do I have to be on the phone? All these things. And that’s really eye opening for a career starter, young, you know, a young career starter, because I think there are a lot of misunderstandings about what a lawyer actually does all day, what a doctor does all day. And so even what someone, I mean, I don’t believe there is like one perfect career for anybody, but even those people who do think that.

44:23
are often very misinformed about what that career actually uh entails. Another myth, I think, is that any one job is going to satisfy you. our expectations of our relationship with the career. And that’s why we emphasize so much in the book and online applications. And what does it mean to really have a fulfilling life? And it means that you are using these

44:52
all of your full complement of aptitudes in some way. So that is going to probably mean not putting off taking the pottery class till you retire. Go on and take it on Saturdays or, you know, build that full life. That is where you’re going to feel the happiest. That is why you will not put every job you have on the witness stand as the problem, which we tend to do. You know, what is our expectation going to be from our work? And in some cases, it’s going to be a happy

45:21
day a lot of the times and in other cases it’s going to be I do this because I love this other thing that I do for fun and I want to be able to afford to do that. That’s why how I’m going to have a fulfilling life. So you know understanding the difference between work and career and applications and volunteering and why all those components are going to really build that life you want.

45:45
Yeah, I think that’s such good point to think about it that the aptitudes don’t have to necessarily. It’s great if they could be within your career, but maybe your aptitudes are not things that necessarily can earn the living or the lifestyle that you want, but that doesn’t mean you can’t find it in other parts of your life. Yeah, you don’t want to be in a mismatch. That’s for sure. That’s true. Some careers are just not going to take care, take advantage of all of them. That’s the thing. Yeah.

46:11
Any final words? was funny, Alex, when you were saying that you don’t necessarily know what people do. My middle daughter always says that to mom, you have no idea what I do. She’s a doctor. She’s like, you have no idea what I do all day, do you? I like, I guess I don’t. I don’t know. can imagine. Can I shadow you for a day? Yeah. Exactly. A doctor is a great example. Many are drawn to it to care for patients or be drawn to it. And then they spend a lot of their time writing reports. Or I don’t know what she would say today.

46:40
You know, in the book, we talk about my friend who was a graphic designer. And when she entered graphic design, she loved it so much because it was cutting out pieces of paper, laying them out on boards. And then computers changed all that and it became digital. And she missed that part of it. And so instead of quitting, she actually took up quilting and started winning awards for her quilts and doing all this kind of thing and kept her job and was very good at doing it on the computer. But she had missed that piece of it.

47:09
So she was really glad she didn’t just abandon ship. ah She found another way to use the aptitude. Yeah. I think that’s incredible advice for people our age. Yeah. The kids don’t have as much time, but at our age, if you want fulfillment. I have a good friend who was really into theater in college and in law school and really wanted to do it. He gave it a shot. He couldn’t. He became a lawyer. He’s kind of this like typical grinding lawyer.

47:37
But on the side, he’s on the board of a local theater and he helps produce plays. And it’s just, I mean, he just lights up when he’s there and he can get through his day because that enables him to do what he loves to do. And it’s not a mismatch. He’s a great lawyer, but. Sure, he’s both. Yeah, yeah. And his identity is both. Like he will tell you about both. If you say, do you do? He doesn’t just say, I’m a lawyer at so-and-so. He says both. Yes.

48:06
I want to address one thing you said, though, or began to say, maybe the kids don’t have time. Listen, they don’t have time to waste. If they do waste it, I mean, we all waste time. That’s my belief. so, you know, I don’t really ever want to hear someone say, I don’t have time to talk to people about what their career could be. If they want to do it, they will. And I think they just need the motivation and challenge to do it. I do wish school would accommodate. mean, if I ruled the world like I would

48:35
I would require every single, when I rule the world, maybe as I should say, I would require every high school junior to do like a sneak peek week or a few months of shadowing. just see, that’s what my students and clients are craving. They wanna glimpse, they wanna look behind the curtain. They wanna see what the doctor does all day, what the lawyer does all day. And I do wish that was part of like,

49:02
the curriculum. I wish that was more formal like it is in Europe, you know, maybe one day. Yeah. All right. Well, this was great. We really appreciate you guys being on the show and thank you CBMers for tuning in. Thank you, Betsy and Alex. We’re going to also put, you gave this wonderful handout about different ways that people can find their aptitudes in other places if it’s, you know, hopefully in their work, but also outside.

49:28
To catch more episodes of College Bound Mentor, make sure to follow or subscribe on your favorite podcast platform and tell a fellow parent or student about the podcast. To learn more, visit CollegeBoundMentor.com Until next time, you got this!

The post Your Hidden Genius with Betsy Wills & Alex Ellison – College Bound Mentor Podcast #42 appeared first on College Bound Mentor.

This is Episode #41 and you’ll hear our first interview with a student, Zoe, who shares her experience not getting into her first choice Early Decision school. Listen to the episode on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and your other favorite podcast spots – follow and leave a 5-star review if you’re enjoying the show!

• Episode Summary & Player
• Show Notes
• Learn more about the College Bound Mentor podcast
• Transcript

College Bound Mentor Podcast Episode #41: Extra Credit ’25: What Happens if You Don’t Get Into Your ED (Early Decision) School?

Now that Early Decision (ED) results are back – and students are either thrilled or disappointed – we wanted to look back at our first interview with a student, Zoe, who shares her experience not getting into her first choice Early Decision school. She reveals her feelings when she first got denied, why it was actually a blessing in disguise, and her advice to rising seniors. This episode covers everything from Early Decision to feeling rejected. Here’s a small sample of what you will hear in this episode:

• What was Zoe involved in in high school?
• Where did she apply Early Decision?
• How did she feel when she first got denied?
• What changed after she got denied?
• How did her approach change when she started applying again?

Subscribe to College Bound Mentor on your favorite podcast platform and learn more at CollegeBoundMentor.com

Check out the episode and show notes below for much more detail.

Show Notes

• Extra Credit ’25: What Happens if You Don’t Get into Your ED (Early Decision) School?
  • [0:18] Welcome to College Bound Mentor
  • [0:24] Lisa Bleich, Abby Power, Stefanie Forman
  • Interview with Zoe
  • [2:35] What was Zoe involved in in high school?
  • [3:52] What got her interested in mental health advocacy?
  • [5:05] Was she able to see the impact she had?
  • [6:08] Where did she apply Early Decision?
  • [7:14] How did she feel when she first got denied?
  • [9:42] What changed after she got denied?
  • [10:38] Villanova University
  • [13:34] How did Zoe’s approach change when she started applying again?
  • [15:35] Did getting into the Honors College impact Zoe’s college decision?
  • [17:51] What would she do different if she did it all over again?
  • [18:46] What advice does she have for fellow students?
  • [20:01] What else would she add?
  • Fun Facts
  • [24:35] What’s a Fun Fact Abby recently learned about college?
  • [25:37] What’s a Fun Fact Stefanie recently learned about college?
  • [27:24] Subscribe to College Bound Mentor on your favorite podcast platform and learn more at CollegeBoundMentor.com
  • Theme Song: “Happy Optimistic Americana” by BDKSonic

What is the College Bound Mentor podcast?

Lisa, Abby, and Stefanie know college. They also know students. With over 30 years combined experience mentoring young people, they’ll show you why understanding yourself is the key to finding the right college. Each episode, hear trends, case studies, and interviews with students who have gone through it all – giving you valuable insight to survive the college application process and beyond. Hosted by Lisa Bleich, Abby Power, and Stefanie Forman, Partners of College Bound Mentor.

Transcript

Please note: this transcript is not 100% accurate.

Zoe 0:01
When you’re applying to college, you’re only 17 and you’re still trying to figure out your identity and what it is that you want in the future.

Lisa Bleich 0:08
Hey, CBMers. Welcome back to College Bound Mentor, where we help you survive the college application process and beyond. We are your co-hosts, Lisa, Abby, and Stefanie, and today, we are talking about early decision what happens if you don’t get into early decision school, and how do you move forward in the application process regardless, now that all the early decision results are back, there are students who are elated because they got into their first choice. There’s, of course, students who are disappointed because they either got denied or they got deferred, which can sometimes put you in this very awkward state, because you you know, you’re wondering, why didn’t I get in and what could I have done for my application? And a lot of times the answer is, you are absolutely there’s nothing that you could have done, and you just have a really strong application. There’s just too many applicants. So we thought it would be really helpful to go back and listen to one of our first interviews that we did with Zoe, who was indeed denied from her first choice school last year, but instead saw it as an opportunity to focus in on what really mattered to her when it came to the college decision and where she was going to ultimately end up going. And I think it’s really helpful to hear that, particularly if you’re wondering how this is all going to pan out. So let’s take a listen to Zoe’s interview. Well, I’m very excited to have our first guest on the college bound mentor on our podcast, and I’m very excited that we have Zoe here with us. Zoe is a Actually, she’s finished her senior year at Mount Saint Mary Academy, which is an all girls Catholic High School in New Jersey, and she it was top of her class. She was the top 10% of her class, which is pretty amazing. She’s very involved in her community. I think of her as a community oriented, intellectually curious leader and an incredibly strong communicator. And I’m just delighted to have Zoe here. So welcome, Zoe.

Zoe 2:21
Hi, thank you so much for having me. So

Lisa Bleich 2:23
I wanted to start off before we talk about it, your early decision experience and also your overall college application journey. Tell us a little bit about what you were involved in at high school. Sure.

Zoe 2:35
So throughout high school, I was really involved in mental health advocacy after a fellowship program I participated in throughout my sophomore year, I started a mental health advocacy group with some of my best friends, and we were able to network with local legislators. We did a lot of work with changing High School lesson plans on mental health, and I was also able to give a talk at a TEDx convention, give a TED talk on the topic of mental health and activism among among young people. From there, I also got involved with a lot of voting rights advocacy and voter registration work. I worked as the youngest paid member of a voter registration nonprofit called voters of tomorrow throughout my senior year and part of my junior year, I was involved in speech and debate as a captain. I was president of junior state of America at my high school, and I was also really into music. I played drums for my school band and my church ensemble as well.

Lisa Bleich 3:30
Wonderful. So you were very busy, very engaged student. And I’m just wondering what got you interested in mental health advocacy.

Zoe 3:40
It was something that I was always passionate about from a psychology perspective. I love taking psych courses over the summer through Johns Hopkins CTY program, when I was starting out with high school. I was always really interested in reading about it and the way that patients were treated and how people were perceived based on certain conditions that they may or may not have. And once I got involved with this fellowship program, civics unplugged, I really started to notice that mental health is one of the issues that a lot of young people can reach a very clear consensus on when so many other issues divide us in this day and age. Because most of the people that I spoke with agreed that mental health is a real concern and something that should be discussed in schools and communities and classrooms. And from there, I was encouraged to create a project proposal, and I was one of five out of about 300 fellows to have their proposal selected, and my project was fully funded by the organization. That’s amazing.

Lisa Bleich 4:39
And were you able to see the impact that your program had in your high school or in other high schools across country?

Zoe 4:47
Yes, definitely. There were so many kids in my high school once I started working on some curriculum updates, who would actually approach me in the halls, whether they were my age or younger, and say things like, you’re a role model. You inspire. Me, and that’s really what pushed me to keep going, is because I realized that even these small actions that may be perceived as inconsequential because we’re just kids doing these things, even those small actions can have a really big impact, and they can start these really important conversations in our communities and create that kind of ripple effect that encourages other young people to take a stance, whether it’s for mental health or in other cause. Yeah, that’s

Lisa Bleich 5:24
amazing. And I and I know that you are going to be an agent of change wherever you go, because it’s just, it’s built into your DNA, and so you’re welcome. And that’s the thing that was, for me, was really surprising. Well, first of all, let’s talk about where you decided to apply early decision and what drew you to that school.

Zoe 5:46
So for early decision, I applied to Swarthmore College, which is in Pennsylvania, right outside of Philly. And I was drawn to that school because of the sense of intellectual curiosity that it seemed to foster. I could tell the kids were really passionate about what they were studying, and really willing to discuss these topics, whether it be in the lecture hall or classroom or even just among friends and their freedom. And that’s something I really wanted to continue in college. And I really was drawn to the small, close knit environment. I think it had about 1600 students. I was under 2000 and there was no grad school, so it was definitely one of the smallest schools that I applied to. And I think that sense of familiarity is something that attracted me, because my high school is only 300 kids, or even fewer than that currently. So going to a medium to large college did seem kind of intimidating, and I was looking for something that had that familiarly close knit and kind of small, welcoming vibe to it, right?

Lisa Bleich 6:47
And it’s also school that activism is a big part of it or impacting change. So that makes sense. So how did you feel when you first got denied?

Zoe 6:57
When I first got denied, I was really upset, honestly, I was surprised, because so many of the people that I had been talking to were so confident in me. I was unsure, but I was feeling optimistic, and when I got rejected, I was really disheartened, because I wasn’t sure what I did that wasn’t enough in their eyes initially, and I was really just one exactly, and before I kind of came to the realization that it’s really not you most of the times that you get rejected, and it comes down to the school itself and who they have a spot for what they’re looking for, I did kind of take it personally, and I was wondering if it would affect my other decisions, if this is just the way things were going to go, And I wouldn’t end up with many options in the end because of some perceived issue with my application. But after a while, I was able to kind of realize that it wasn’t the case, even though initially I was really preoccupied with what I had done wrong and if I was able to fix for the rest of my applications went out,

Lisa Bleich 8:00
and that’s a really common idea, is, what did I do wrong? What was what? What could I have done differently? I was equally surprised when you didn’t get into Swarthmore because you had such a strong application. You’re an amazing writer. You had a really you have a really strong point of view, and it was really clear who you were, and you communicated that really well. So I was also surprised, but I also had faith that it was just not where you went, where you were meant to go. How do you feel about it now?

Zoe 8:30
Now, I kind of feel like it was a blessing in disguise, because I feel like my perspective has changed a lot over this past year for a variety of reasons, a lot of different things that I had experienced and observed. And because of that, I’m kind of grateful that I had the opportunity to weigh all my options in the spring, about a month ago, and figure out what was the best fit for me based on the person that I had evolved into. Because when you’re applying to college, you’re only 17, and you’re still trying to figure out your identity and what it is that you want in the future. So I think having those additional few months, even though it does seem like a trivial difference, really did make an impact for me, because I was able to reflect on as I wanted and how those wants kind of developed over the course of my senior year into something different and

Lisa Bleich 9:21
what changed? What changed from what you wanted back in October, say November, 1 when you made the decision, and then when? Because ultimately, you had amazing options. You had so many amazing options you got in almost everywhere else that you applied, right? So what changed?

Zoe 9:36
For me, the main factor that changed was just the size and the overall nature of the school that I was looking for, because initially, when I first started this process, you remember, I was exclusively looking at the small liberal arts schools, and everyone around me was kind of saying, you know, you should try to broaden your horizons, maybe look at some bigger universities in addition to these small colleges. And, yeah. I wasn’t really open to that the first time that we drove by Villanova, as we were looking at all the other Philly schools, I just didn’t even want to entertain a possibility. But I think as the year progressed, I realized that going to a really small high school does have its benefits academically, but it can also be a little bit challenging in some aspects, to be in a small environment for someone like me who is definitely a more extroverted person and likes to be involved and network with all different kinds of people and talk to a new person every day. And as I got older and kind of realized that this phase of my life as a high school or in a very small high school, was coming to an end, I was kind of grateful to have options from have referred with 1500 kids to a school like NYU with over 10,000 kids, and having that range of possibilities was really helpful for me, because I’d realized that I didn’t necessarily want to limit myself to only small schools, or only schools in a certain location, or only liberal arts schools, right?

Lisa Bleich 11:07
So you brought in your expectation and or your desires, or what you felt like you could handle and what you would do well. And one of the things I was wondering is when you got over that initial just disappointment and you had to change your mindset, what was helpful to you to be able to do that? Because you did have some early action schools that you got into pretty closely after you got that denial, so you can talk about that, and how did that help change your mindset, or at least make you feel a little bit weighed by the experience?

Zoe 11:40
I think having those early action schools from the get go was definitely something that made me feel a lot more confident in the possibilities or opportunities for me, because Seton Hall was the school that I heard back from in October, which was a lot earlier than any other I got in. I received a scholarship, I got into the honors program, and I was able to just kind of take that deep breath and say, I know I’m going to college somewhere, and it was a good option that I did like and resonate with. So I figured that having that would be a great option no matter what else happens. And then from there, I got into some other schools, like Fordham, Rutgers, Villanova, and from there, even though I wasn’t really sure what I was leaning towards, because I wasn’t sure what other possibilities might be out there. It felt really good just to have those options no matter what, and to start researching those schools in depth from a different perspective since I had gotten in, because I feel like there is kind of a shift between looking at a school as a prospective applicant and as someone who’s been admitted and is looking for different aspects of student life, and not just worrying, you know, are my scores high enough for me to get into a school like this, right? So having those schools, having that safety net was really helpful,

Lisa Bleich 12:52
and you bring up a really good point, because when you’re looking at a school as an applicant and trying to understand if you are admissible, there’s a very different mindset than when you’re looking at a school that you’ve been accepted to, and you recognize that now I’m in the driver’s seat. Now I get to really think about what it is that I want from a school. How did that change for you? And what were some of the the things that you size was one that you talked about, but what else changed? And how did you weigh your options when you had it and what schools did it narrow down to when you were making your final decision?

Zoe 13:27
I think for me, a factor that became less and less important throughout the process was honestly the perceived prestige or reputation of the school. Because obviously, I love Villanova, and I think it’s a great place, but I definitely don’t think it’s perceived as academic as some of the other schools, like NYU that I was admitted to, or my number five people have that mindset, or have preferred

Lisa Bleich 13:50
exactly, which was very similar to Swarthmore, right?

Zoe 13:53
Yes, and that’s definitely one thing that drew me into Swarthmore in the first place was that level of name and the things that it’s associated with when you say that name. So that’s definitely something I was super worried about at first. But throughout the process, I kind of shifted from saying I have to just go to the school with the lowest acceptance rate out of everywhere I was admitted to, to figuring out, where will I be happy, where can I see myself living because as that reality kind of approached, I started thinking about, you know, where am I going to wake up in a dorm and feel happy? Where will I be able to get involved in the way that’s the most suitable to me as an individual? Where will I be able to appreciate the campus and the location and all that has to offer? So I think that’s something that changed for me. And as I was considering schools, after regular decision came out, I’d say my main options were Villanova, Fordham have referred and NYU, I’d say those were the main four. And as I continued to consider each option, I really started looking more at the. The Student Life aspect, and some of the more aspects, some of the aspects beyond academics and name reputation, because I realized there’s a lot more to college than just what other people see, because it’s also about how you’ll enjoy the experience and how you’ll be able to make the most of it, regardless of that name.

Lisa Bleich 15:18
Right? And you got into the Honors College at Villanova. Yes, right. And did that sway it at all for you because you were in that? Yeah, definitely.

Zoe 15:28
I vividly remember opening the letter in school. I just, for some reason, felt the need to check my portal again for Villanova that day, when I was sitting in class and I saw this big alert that I had an update to my application. I wasn’t really sure what I clicked on it, and then there was all this confetti, and there was a notification that I was admitted to the Honors College, which I honestly did not even know existed when I was applying. So I was really surprised about that. I was really excited, because initially I was very happy to be admitted, but it wasn’t exactly a front runner, because I was concerned about the size and the prevalence of Greek life and a lot of aspects that kind of deterred me from other similar schools. But once I got into the Honors College and I started looking online at some of the students and some of the things that it could offer to me, I’ve realized that it would provide a lot of opportunities, and I’d be able to find my people even in a bigger school, because they always say you can make a big school small, but you can’t always make a small school big. And I figured I could kind of get the best of both worlds with that small, close knit academic environment that I’d always been looking for, and a bigger social environment, with sports and a larger population of, you know, 7000 undergrads, instead of 2000 which is something that had kind of changed throughout the year with respect to my preferences on school size,

Lisa Bleich 16:53
right? And that’s a really good point. And I think a lot of people overlook the honors colleges as really good options if you want that small school experience or you want and even though 7000 is a medium sized school, it’s compared to your high school, it’s still quite big, but it does give you that opportunity to have that intellectual rigor and those small conversations And seminar style classes within a larger environment, looking back, if you had to do it all over again, god forbid, right? Would you think that smarter would have been a good fit for you?

Zoe 17:31
I think it would have been a good fit. I think I would have, you know, been fine and found my people, found my place academically. But I don’t necessarily think it would have been the best fit out of all the schools that I was looking at and was admitted to, because, like I said, I feel like I changed a lot and evolved a lot throughout the year with respect to what I was looking for and the kind of things I was hoping to get out of my college experience. And for that reason, I was really lucky to have the opportunity to choose from so many schools, rather than simply having one from December onwards and not being able to weigh my other options, or even see my other options, because I would have had to withdraw from all those other schools I got into.

Lisa Bleich 18:16
Yeah, it’s true. It’s sometimes. It’s really is a all for the best things always happen, for a reason. In hindsight, what advice would you give because to rising seniors who are just about to go through the process, or even younger students who are perhaps juniors looking starting to put their lists

Zoe 18:34
together? This is one thing I was actually just talking about with my friend who’s a junior, is that you should obviously consider the aspects of this that are important to you, like academics, the name, the alumni network, but really the most important thing, in retrospect, to me, is whether you’ll be happy there, and whether you’ll feel like you have a place as part of that school community, because as much as you’re worried about the name and the way people will react to where you’re going, they’re not the ones that are going to have to wake up in that school every morning and go through that routine and be part of that community. And once you get to college, from what I’ve heard, at least, and once you choose a college, you’re not going to think about all the other schools that either rejected you or the schools that you turned down, because you’re going to be so excited for all that there is ahead of you. That was such

Lisa Bleich 19:24
great advice. I’m going to package that and send it out to all of my rising seniors and sophomores as they go through this process. So that’s great. Is there anything else you want to add just at the end? Anything else that we didn’t cover that you wish I’d asked you,

Zoe 19:40
I guess another thing I would want to talk about is just the ways that you can kind of engage with the college once you’ve gotten into different places, and how you can make that decision. Because for me, I really enjoyed looking at the different Instagram pages that are out there for the admit. Students and previous classes where you can kind of see what kind of students attend that school and what their interests are and whether they resonate with you, and are the type of people that you could see yourself, you know, being friends with and spending time with, because as much as academics are important, and were a big factor for me, as well as you know, size, location, opportunities for internship service, it is really important that you’re able to find your people and find your niche, whatever that may be, shortening on your interests and who you are. So I think looking online at different resources, whether that be for your specific majors, department, if they have a website or social media, if there’s a page for admitted students, if there’s a website for your honors college or a specific scholarship program that you were admitted to, looking at the smaller details, rather than the school at large, will probably give you a more accurate view of what your experience would be like depending on the kind of offer you’ve gotten or the kind of ways that you plan to engage with the school once you get there. Yeah, that’s

Lisa Bleich 21:05
really good advice. Was there anything that you saw on those media that you felt, no, that’s not for me. Or when you were down to those four schools between NYU Fordham, Haverford and Villanova, because they’re quite different schools, you know, and they and they attract quite a different so Was there something that either clinched it for Villanova, or was it, or was there something that you saw, where you saw thought, those aren’t my people?

Zoe 21:35
Yeah, I think for the side of those aren’t my people, or this isn’t my school. I think seeing different photos and videos just on the websites or social media of the schools, and seeing what the day to day life of some of those schools really look like was very helpful to me, because, for instance, NYU is a school that I really wanted to apply to, but I never visited for some reason, and I never really researched from a critical standpoint of evaluating the pros and cons. And I think, honestly, one of the reasons I was so excited about getting in was because it was the quote, unquote, best name out of the schools that I had been accepted to. And I was happy about that. I ended up actually getting a Presidential Scholars offer. And I was just really happy that I had gone in, but once I started looking at them and some of the other schools that I had been accepted to their YouTube channels, for instance, and videos of the students just going through their routine, seeing the location and the lifestyle, I realized this doesn’t really resonate me. Resonate with me in the same way that the lifestyle and the campus at Villanova does. And I think one thing that really helped me kind of seal the deal with Villanova was admitted students day, because there was one speech from a current student, and they said, a lot of schools will say, you know, you would be honored to go to a school like this, but at Villanova, it feels like they would be honored to have you and have you contribute to their community. And that was something that really excited me, because I’d been speaking to so many students, I’d been figuring out, you know, the classes I would take and the clubs I would join, and how I would kind of make an impact, starting on my college campus, and hopefully beyond after that, whether that be grad school or the workforce. And I really saw myself kind of fitting into that puzzle and being able to contribute and have my perspective valued there. So definitely would help me decide

Lisa Bleich 23:40
that’s amazing, yeah. And I can’t wait to see what you do there, because I know you’re going to make a huge impact there. And I can’t wait to maybe have you back after you’ve gone through some more experiences at Villanova and see how great that was. Well, thank you so much. This has been so helpful, and I think students will really resonate with this as they are going through the process. So thank you.

Zoe 24:00
All right, thank you so much.

Lisa Bleich 24:05
Thank you so much. Zoe, that was a great interview, and I hope you guys learned as much as I did about the whole process before we say goodbye, let’s go into our fun facts about college. Abby, what was the fun fact that you learned last week about colleges?

Abby Power 24:19
So last week, I learned that University of Wisconsin has an appeal process, so that’s meant for if you don’t get into the school, you can appeal the decision, and there are a bunch of schools that have it. You know, this is not something that works, generally speaking, but a family came to me who I hadn’t worked with. They asked me to review their daughter’s application to see if I had any insight into why she didn’t get into Wisconsin. And after I looked at her application, I had no answers for them. I thought she was a fantastic candidate, not over qualified. Perfectly qualified would have been a great fit. So I recommended that they try the appeal process and. Duh, yeah, it worked. Wow, admitted, yeah, it was awesome. Oh, that’s later, so that’s awesome. She didn’t get any feedback as to why they reversed their decision, but I don’t know. Sometimes if, if you have that feeling, it might be worth pursuing.

Lisa Bleich 25:17
Yeah, no, You never know. You never know. What about you? Steph,

Stefanie Forman 25:20
my fun fact has nothing to do with this, but I am talking about it way too much. We went to an ICA conference last week in Connecticut, and we visited a bunch of Connecticut colleges, and I learned University of Florida was there, and I learned, and this is a big deal, my husband’s going to be very proud, because he’s a gator. He went to UF he’s from Florida. You might have, you know, many opinions of that state, but it’s a wonderful university. And I learned, and this is new in the past year, that if you have a grandparent and his mom is a resident there, so if you have a grandparent who’s a resident of Florida, that you get to pay. And if you get admitted to UF, which is Gainesville, or any of the Florida public universities, which is not an easy feat, especially some of them, you get to pay in state tuition, there are some caveats. I think there’s only about 350 waivers throughout all of the schools. So about 50 to 60 waivers for each college, and there are a few requirements, like SAT, ACT scores, GPA, but again, that just really excited me. And I thought that’s really awesome that a public university would give that opportunity to out of state. Yeah, smart.

Lisa Bleich 26:38
It’s really smart. Wow. And I think the woman said that we met with, she said you have to get in really early. You have to get your application in as early as you can, because they they get swept up. So that that’s a wonderful, wonderful piece of news for anyone who has a any grandparents living in Florida. Well, I want to thank Zoe again for coming on to college male mentor. It was a great interview, and we really appreciated what you had to say. And thank you, CBMers, for tuning in to catch more episodes of College Bound Mentor. Make sure to Follow or Subscribe on your favorite podcast platform and tell a fellow parent or student about the podcast to learn more. Visit CollegeBoundMentor.com Until next time, you got this!

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This is Episode #40 and you’ll hear us talk about how to navigate college decisions with confidence and clarity with Jenna Schebell of The College Navigators. Listen to the episode on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, and your other favorite podcast spots – follow and leave a 5-star review if you’re enjoying the show!

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• Show Notes
• Learn more about the College Bound Mentor podcast
• Transcript

College Bound Mentor Podcast Episode #40: Dealing with College Decisions Dropping with Jenna Schebell of The College Navigators

With college decisions coming out in the coming weeks, we’re entering one of the most stressful times for high school students & parents. There are so many emotions you’re bound to experience, and it’s hard to resist comparing yourself to other aspiring college students. In this episode, we welcome on Jenna Schebell, Founder of The College Navigators. She’s an Independent Educational Consultant (IEC) with over 20 years of experience in college admissions. Here’s a small sample of what you’ll hear in this episode:

• How to navigate the news on college decisions
• How to understand what actually goes into admissions decisions
• How to block out the noise in this extra stressful time
• How to regroup if things don’t work out the way you’d hoped
• And how to own your path as an aspiring college student – no matter what it looks like

Subscribe to College Bound Mentor on your favorite podcast platform and learn more at CollegeBoundMentor.com.

Check out the episode and show notes below for much more detail.

Show Notes

• Dealing with College Decisions Dropping with Jenna Schebell of The College Navigators
  • [0:19] Welcome to the College Bound Mentor
  • [02:04] Jenna’s path to founding College Navigators and growing her presence on Instagram
  • [08:21] Managing stress around Early Decision (ED), Early Action (EA), and the college decision season
  • [11:39] How to cope with college rejection or deferral – avoiding catastrophizing about dream schools
  • [12:52] Understanding yield protection and whether true “safety schools” still exist
  • [16:06] Strategies for blocking out college-admissions anxiety, comparison culture, and community pressure
  • [18:57] Regrouping when decisions don’t go as planned and reassessing the college list
  • [22:04] Deferrals: what they mean, how they differ from waitlists, and when to shift focus
  • [25:40] When ED2 makes strategic sense and how to evaluate admissions statistics before committing
  • [30:12] The rise of pre-ED and rolling early-decision
  • [36:27] How to vet admissions information online and identify misinformation on social media
  • [39:39] What actually goes into a holistic review: institutional priorities, class shaping, and enrollment goals
  • [45:31] Common truths and myths about college decisions and the value of alternative pathways
  • [49:22] Final reminders about tuning out noise, trusting the process, and enjoying senior year
  • Theme Song: “Happy Optimistic Americana” by BDKSonic

What is the College Bound Mentor podcast?

Lisa, Abby, and Stefanie know college. They also know students. With over 30 years combined experience mentoring young people, they’ll show you why understanding yourself is the key to finding the right college. Each episode, hear trends, case studies, and interviews with students who have gone through it all – giving you valuable insight to survive the college application process and beyond. Hosted by Lisa Bleich, Abby Power, and Stefanie Forman, Partners of College Bound Mentor.

Transcript

Please note: this transcript is not 100% accurate.

00:04
It’s good to know that there are all these options and there’s not one right way to do it.

00:19
Hey, CBMers, welcome back to College Bound Mentor, where we help you survive the college application process and beyond. We’re your co-hosts, Lisa, Abby, and Stefanie. And on today’s episode, we’re going to chat with Jenna Schebell, Founder of the College Navigators. Jenna embarked on her journey in higher education after graduating from the University of Tampa with an MBA, where she discovered her passion for helping students navigate the college application process.

00:43
During her early years as an admission counselor, she traveled throughout the Northeast region, actively recruiting prospective students for UT. She then joined Marymount Manhattan College, which is no longer, as the Associate Director of Admissions, overseeing various aspects of the admissions process and evaluating applications for both the college and highly selective specialized admissions programs such as dance and theater. After a decade in college admissions, she shifted her focus towards high school, students embarking on their own college journey. She worked at a private

01:11
at private schools in New Jersey where her most recent role was director of guidance and college counseling. We first discovered Jenna, actually Stef first discovered her because of her strong social media presence. And we are grateful to the algorithms that led us to her posts. Jenna shares clear, current, easy to understand, up to the minute and most important accurate information about college admissions. Everything from upcoming decisions, release dates to specific college admissions data to application advice and everything in between.

01:40
So thank you so much for being so generous with the information. And today we’re going to talk about how to navigate college decisions that are coming out, especially since this is the time, know, where Rollout has started in many of the public universities, some of the private universities like Villanova and Tulane released their early decisions last week. But before we get to that, we’d love to just get a little bit more, know a little bit more that we haven’t talked about in your background.

02:04
and how and why you started College Navigators. And in particular, we’re interested in how you have such a big social media account following. Well, thank you. I’m so excited that we were able to finally connect. I know you had reached out earlier in the summer and then just the craziness of the fall and the application seasons. So this is actually perfect timing, like you said, with decisions about to come out. I feel like there’s so much just chatter and nervousness. So it’s a good time to kind of touch on that topic. As for me, I think you did an awesome intro. think you kind of…

02:34
hit all of kind of the points of my travels. How I got to the college navigators was kind of just a collection of, guess, where I had spent all of my time even prior to working as an admissions counselor, even throughout college. I was just very involved in helping students. I worked at like Center for our Talented Youth through John Hopkins every summer.

02:57
So I just, feel like I’ve always had that connection to students, but my background is kind of on the business side. So I did my undergrad in computers, which was an interesting time, which reminds me of now, which is why I mentioned is that I went to college, I started in 1998, graduated in 2002, which was really when that world wide web, you know, .com bubble happened. And it was so interesting because I felt like what I was learning when I started, which was all these coatings behind the scenes, you know,

03:27
and what they were teaching by the time I graduated, it almost seemed like my degree was so irrelevant, so fast. It almost reminds me of kids right now with what’s happening with AI. I feel like this is kind of that next big insurgence. So anyway, so my career led me into admissions and spent 10 plus years working on that side. So got to learn all of the intricacies and really have a good understanding of the business behind admissions, which I feel like is my biggest like…

03:55
point that I’m always trying to drill into parents and students, especially this time of year, that it is not you, it is them. This is an emotional process for you. It is a business decision for them. And so it’s always like, if I can convey one message, it’s just like, it’s not always gonna make sense. Like college is a business. Yes, it’s education. But every day when I worked in admissions, it was all about enrollment numbers and yields and what were decisions looking like that day. And then when I got to the college side,

04:23
I am the college high school side, should say, in terms of preparing them, it became then such an emotional process. And I saw the hours and all the effort that went into it, the heartstrings that were pulled when decisions didn’t go certain ways. So I feel like I bring this kind of unique perspective of really understanding what’s going into the decisions, but also the perspective of the students. Fast forward, I guess, 2023, post-COVID, a lot changed in New Jersey high schools where it was like,

04:51
so much less about college counseling and so much more just about like mental health and other things. So I was just like losing and my whole background was college counseling. So I was really missing kind of that one-on-one. And so ended up venturing into the college navigators, total leap of faith, like quit my job. Like, you know what I mean? With really no plan, just hoping it was the right move. I loved my colleagues. I loved my job. I’d been there for seven years. So was really just a leap of faith at that point and it has worked so far.

05:21
I’ve oh been fortunate, you talk about social media, I think social media has just been a lot of luck. I think when I first started the social media, it was more because you have to, right? Everybody makes a Facebook page and an Instagram page and all that, kind of checking the boxes of what you do to start your business. And then when I got into the space, it was just like so much bad information or like fear-mongering or like…

05:44
just things that weren’t true. And I was just kind of like, wait, wait, no, that’s not real. And then I just decided like, I’m just gonna start sharing it all. I’m just gonna start telling people what’s really going on to stop like the madness because there’s already enough craziness around the process. We don’t need to like create more crazy in it. So. Well, we thank you for that. Because we feel the same way whenever we read posts and we’re like, especially Abby, we so Oh, we get so angry. So angry.

06:09
Because the kids listen to it. Right. And then they come and ask us about it. And we’re like, no, that’s not really true. And so it’s nice to have good information where people can read it and be like, yeah, that’s true. You have to know the source of where you’re getting the information from. Yeah. I remember last year was when I started getting triggered by it. Because on the day that Northwestern released early decision.

06:36
there’s a guy who is, I don’t know how many followers, but probably close to you and a young guy. And he said, here’s everything you need to know about Northwestern decisions. And he spewed all of these things that not only no one outside of Northwestern admissions could ever have known, but there’s no way they would have known it that quickly. He was talking about the word, blah, applications for this major. So if you applied for computer science, you were this regionally, was this many.

07:03
And it was literally 15 minutes after decisions. I mean, he was just sort of making it up and there was so much dialogue and he was just literally lying. And he’s so mad because we had kids calling us, you know, is this true? Should I have done that? And I’m like, no, no, no, none of that’s true. He’s literally just spewing nonsense and hoping that, you know, somebody picks it up. I know.

07:28
I I feel, yeah. especially appreciative of accurate information. Yes, yes, we are. Because we make our, I mean, our whole life is just being accurate, like giving the truth to people so they can understand. Yeah, no, I get it. I do. I always, my favorite, like my cringe is always the one that’s like, this essay got me into this school. And like, I feel like a little bit more about your profile because it was not like the essay to the end. It’s like, help. I’m sure it did. But like,

07:55
be more truthful with like your whole profile. Like were you in the top 5 %? Did you have like top tier scores? Did you have like all these other meaningful activity? I mean, it’s a whole holistic process at most of these schools. So it’s just like, give a little more context. Yeah, exactly. Give a little more context. And the flip side of it too, an essay is not gonna necessarily keep you out unless it’s just so terrible. there’s so many things that go into making the decision. And I think that’s…

08:21
why we thought it would be good to talk about that. we have December coming up in a couple of weeks, we’re gonna get all of the early decisions are gonna come out. Some of the early actions are gonna come out. So what do you give your like, what is some of the best advice? I remember like with my own three kids, it was just not to talk about it all the time and not to say, oh, you’re definitely gonna get in because that would just make them so stressed out. If you know, they, especially girls like, no, don’t talk so bad. How do you

08:50
So what would you say is some good advice that you would give sort of during this waiting time and then also just to how to prepare? Right. I mean, some of it is, of course, the cliche things that you say, but I truly stand by it. Like, I really think you will end up where you are meant to be. And I always try to use analogies with my students because I feel like sometimes that works like a little bit better. But I even say like things.

09:14
You know, think if you’re shopping for a homecoming dress, right? And you go look at a rack and you think there’s these 10 really great dresses. And then you go into the fitting room and like all of these that you thought were great, maybe they don’t fit you right or they don’t look as good or maybe there’s ones that surprise you and all of a sudden they become your top choices. And so I always think students need to understand the list that they have when they are putting it all together and they’re applying is going to look very different from their list that they’re actually making decisions from. And there needs to be a point

09:44
during the admission cycle that you really start focusing on the colleges that love you back, the ones that want you and the ones that are accepting you and the ones that are showing you the merit money and applauding you for your efforts and lose that focus of the ones that maybe you didn’t get into or if you’re deferred and now you’ve got to wait a little bit longer, start focusing those efforts on the ones that have shown you the love because there are so many great schools out there and so many times I hear, it was my dream and I’m like, but.

10:12
Why was it your dream? Like, let’s really like break it down because besides maybe things like the great football team or the, you know, the fun Greek life or the location, a lot of times when I ask them to really break down what made it so right from there, they can’t always define all of that in terms of, you know, what was it about those academic programs? What did your four year trajectory look like and how was it gonna set you up for somewhere else? And the other thing I always tell students, just because it’s a no, doesn’t mean it’s a not never, like not ever.

10:42
You can always end up somewhere else later, meaning like look at the transfer opportunities, look at what it might mean for grad school. So it’s not where you start, it’s where you finish. And I think as adults, we know anytime somebody says, where did you go to school? You’re saying the last place you went. So I mean, if your heart is completely set on being somewhere, let’s figure out then how to get you there. But in the meantime, let’s be really excited about all the places and options that you do have. Yeah.

11:08
I think that’s, I mean, we say the same thing to our clients, but I think it’s really hard in December, because I what happens in March, then you have all of these options, right? How all the decisions, but I think it’s really hard when someone’s, you know, it’s their dream school, they’ve applied early, and they don’t have any other information yet. Like, they’re only gonna typically get that they might get into some of the the early notification schools that might have been

11:35
the safety school or if you could even call it that, but they don’t really have a lot of information yet. And so when they get that rejection or they get that deferral, right? That’s, think the hardest because all of a sudden, a lot of times they’ll start to catastrophize. Oh my God, I didn’t get anywhere. I’m never going to get it here. Or they got deferred from a school that they thought was like a school that they would, know, like Tulane, that was always a kind of thing. If someone was applying for perhaps an IV and then they got deferred from Tulane, like,

12:04
I didn’t get in there. I’m never going to get into any school. you start down that catastrophizing of things. And I think that’s another piece of advice. I don’t know what you recommend to your families. But I think that’s just the hardest thing is because at that point, they don’t have enough information. In March, yes, that conversation makes a lot of sense. But in December, there’s this feeling that that was it. I put everything into it. And I didn’t get it. Or I got deferred.

12:31
whatever it is and that’s it. I’m not getting it anywhere else. Yeah, I’m not gonna get in anywhere. Right. And I think that’s really hard thing to just wrap your head around that yes, you are gonna get into other schools and it really hurts. But don’t catastrophize it. think Right. And it’s important, I think, to educate them a little bit too on yield protection.

12:52
because I think sometimes students don’t understand that aspect of it, that colleges, like you said, are there really safeties anymore? Sometimes colleges look at you as an applicant and while yes, you are great, maybe they don’t sense that you’re going to commit and enroll or you you’re somebody that you’re better off deferring because they, in their mind, they might think you’re applying ED other places and they wanna see if you stick around. And you are.

13:19
So that’s kind of what it is. I think that, and I think that, and it’ll be interesting to see like Michigan, because that was always the school Michigan was doing that. we’re all super curious to see what happens with Michigan. yeah. This year. I think that’s going to be a huge thing. But to your point, and then I just, and then we’ll get off this sort of what to do. But like one of our, got this note from one of my clients who ended up at a school that wasn’t like at her tippy top of her list, right? And she ended up not getting into her.

13:47
her, you know, thought was her dream school, is a rich school, an Ivy. I just got a note from her and she told me, oh my God, I’m so happy. And she listed all the wonderful things that she was doing and that she was doing research with a professor, the one that she identified in her, why this school essay, and that she was in a sorority and she was doing everything possible. said, I’ve never been happier in my whole life. And so it’s just like that to see like she couldn’t have necessarily imagined that in December, right? But now almost a year later, she’s just

14:17
beyond the moon and she’s so happy. So I think that’s also something to keep in mind. I think the parents too, I always caution parents like read the room. Sometimes the kids aren’t as upset as you are. So like I can tell you how many parents will be like, I’m so mad at this school. Like I had one mom last year just constantly like she was so mad at UVA, her daughter didn’t get in and her, I mean, her daughter got into UNC and all these other great schools ultimately went to UNC and finally messaged me this past September like,

14:46
She loves it there. I’m so glad she didn’t go to VA. But sometimes it’s like, if your kid’s not upset, like even if you are, like don’t show that to them. Like don’t project some of that, maybe negativity or make it a bigger deal because sometimes, you know, what you had in your head is very different, you know, how your kids have moved through the process and what they’re thinking. So I always say like, read the room with your students as the decisions come in. Cause if they’re not like overly upset, like no need for you to be. right. Don’t like, don’t make them feel bad and undermine their own product. Yeah. Right.

15:15
I think it’s so important something you said about educating our families and our students about yield rate because you, um, Lisa and Abby, they’re back all of your backgrounds, business, or I was a little bit different. I, I was an English teacher and kind of doing the essay thing. So the business world, it’s very humble. I mean, all of it’s humbling, right? But like the yield rate that all of that was very new to me and like wrapping my head around that. And once I understood that, that like that light bulb went off when it’s like,

15:44
so much of it’s not personal. I think just like, and yield, we talk about it so much, but I think that’s such a good point, like wrapping your head around that. And I feel like sometimes we explain it and it kind of goes over their head. They don’t really understand what it means. So yeah, I’m glad you touched on that. So maybe this is to continue on with this conversation, we’re treating you like a therapist right now, but um like, I feel it might be a nearly impossible task, but how do you recommend

16:14
for students and parents to block out all of this noise and fodder surrounding the anticipation of decisions, the aftermath, the focus on results. We learned that Jenna is uh also in New Jersey, like Lisa and myself, and Abby too is in an area where you can’t escape this college talk. So yeah, what’s your advice to block out the noise?

16:38
I know, it is crazy. I always tell people like, just try to go out and have fun and do things to distract you because it is madness. And like the thing that makes the journey the hardest is when you start comparing yourself to others. And that, I mean, that’s an every single aspect. And even this time of year gets very tough. Like even if you take out the decision part of it, there are like a set group of students who very early in the process already know where they’re going, right? They’ve committed, they’ve enrolled, they’ve deposited. And so I think for the students, it’s so important to remind them that

17:08
what the normal thing is for this time of the year is, you you hear some decisions in December and you hear some more decisions in January and then you get more in March. And it’s really in March where you’re kind of laying everything out on the table and figuring it out and going back for visits and making a decision by May. Like that is normal. So yes, there are going to be the students who are excited and wearing the sweatshirts and already claiming everything, but you’re not behind. And I think it’s very easy to get caught up in like,

17:36
just feeling like everybody else has it figured out. And it’s like, from my perspective, I can’t tell you how many students maybe changed their mind at the last minute or have last minute things come up. And so it’s just, if you can just really keep the eyes on your own lane and know that this is your journey and the more you focus on it, the happier you’re going to be in the end. You’re gonna make the right decisions. You’re not gonna be doing things because everybody else is doing them. So I know it is so completely hard, but.

18:03
Just go celebrate, have fun. The applications are out. You can only control what you can at this point. And then just like I said, be excited about your senior year. Like I feel like so many people lose little moments in their senior year because they’re so focused on the future and senior year is so fun. Like you’ve waited four years to get to it. So if you can just like step back and just kind of like turn it all over and know that it is going to work out and just go have fun. Like I said, easier said than done, but.

18:30
you really got to turn off that chatter. And like parents too, like you’re part of that chatter. Like, did you say so and so? Like stop. Like let’s stop and let the students have fun. This is true. Yeah. I think that’s a great point. Or we’re going to start to use, I like your prom dress, homecoming dress analogy and loving them back. That’s great. Early actions have come out, early decisions, some have come out.

18:57
but they’re about to really drop in the next few weeks. And so kind of like what we were talking about, things don’t work out. How do you help your students regroup? Is there an action plan? Is there one thing you tell them to do? uh it depend on the student? I think it depends on the student, but I think, especially for the students that I’ve worked with, we try to be very intentional with the list. So hopefully you do have at least…

19:22
Some wins, I love rolling schools for students for that reason. So at least, know, that, you know, I can go somewhere. I know I have somewhere is just a little helpful. But I also think I tell them like, this is why we apply early because then we still have the regular decision and we still have early decisions. So if you feel like you’re not happy with the way certain things have worked out, you still have time now to apply to.

19:45
many other schools. So I think it’s just re-strategizing if necessary, or just like I said, shifting our focus and starting to focus on, okay, I got these five really great offers. I am happy with those five. So now it’s time to switch course and start going to admitted student days and revisiting and joining things on social media so I can meet other students. So I think it’s just, again, like I said, having that.

20:07
restrategizing conversation if we need to, but if not, then we just need to start getting excited about certain options that are out there. But I think it’s okay to cry and be upset and do that for one day and whatever you need to do, go eat a tub of ice cream, do something because you’re upset. But then the next day we put our boots back on and we get moving and we figure out what’s going to be next because we know life is not linear, right? It’s not.

20:30
doesn’t have to be this straight path. Like I said before, if you really want to go somewhere, we can figure out why, but chances are, like I said, it’s working out for a reason and you’re going to be excited. I can’t tell you how many parents have said like certain schools that have just completely surprised them. Like the number of parents that have messaged me this year about Iowa State in general, just saying like, I never expected and we got on the campus and they were just so interested in my student, the follow-up, like all of this. I think sometimes parents don’t realize the difference between

20:59
schools that can really just take every applicant for granted and the schools that are really going to nurture a relationship with your child all the way from the admissions process throughout the four years. So yeah, it’s just learning kind of all those options that are out there. And like I said, just getting excited about where your choices lie. Yeah. I didn’t appreciate the early win until I saw it with my own two boys who have now both graduated from college, but back in the day, Indiana was rolling.

21:26
Yeah, and they both got into Indiana. I mean, I just remember more than even them being accepted to the schools they went to. I remember that they opened it up and both just burst into tears, burst into tears like somebody wants me. So I try to remember that actually with all even super high, you know, flying kids to apply because I just have one who

21:50
applied to an IV early decision. We’ll see how he does, but he just got into his local university and he was all teary eyed. He was like, I’m just so excited. It does feel nice to get in. So the next topic is probably my least favorite in the entire process, I have to say. This is the time when I’m stressed. Deferrals. Helping the kids navigate what happens if they’re deferred from their first choice schools, whether it was an ED or an EA.

22:18
Yeah, helping them figure out if they should stay hopeful, if they should, as you were saying, recalibrate and re-strategize and go for an early decision too. Personally, I had had very little success with kids who were deferred and then accepted, but then a couple of years ago, it did happen at Duke. So I’m cautious not to be like, there’s no hope, there’s no hope at

22:46
I don’t know what, you have any advice about how to counsel the kids looking at the rest of the process once they’ve been deferred? Yeah, I mean, I try as much as I can, especially on my Instagram to like go crazy sharing stats because I think it’s so important for students to understand is this a small deferral pool where they are taking a certain percentage later where there is still hope or are we talking like.

23:09
Michigan that’s just gonna defer 53,000. Are we talking like University of Southern California that’s basically deferring everyone because they’re not denying anybody, right? So I think it’s really important to kind of set the tone for each school. And then I’m always the one that’s, I would say more negative. Like we’re just gonna expect that it’s not gonna work out so that if it does, it’s just a pleasant surprise because I just think like you said,

23:34
It’s almost like a wait list when it comes to deferrals that there’s not always a rhyme or reason who’s getting picked off, right? They’re fulfilling institutional needs and goals at that point. So it may work out for the student and be very favorable. may not. Again, I think it’s very school dependent, right? I think there are state schools that very intentionally defer a lot of out-of-state because they have state minimums that they have to meet for their in-state kids. Like I feel like South Carolina is big on that. They defer a lot of out-of-state kids, but later many of them get in. um

24:04
whereas other schools just aren’t as favorable for students. So I think, I guess going back to answer your question, I try to share as many stats as I can. And then I just have historical data so I can go back and look if the school share about how many percent really got pulled off in the previous years and got admitted out of that deferral pool, just so students can manage their expectations. But the funny thing that I will say is at least with my own students this past year, those that were deferred,

24:34
they lost interest, which was interesting over the course. Like I had a student who applied REA to Notre Dame was deferred and also deferred at University of Texas in that early January 15th, got into Michigan and eventually got into both Notre Dame and Texas. But because they had deferred, she had kind of given up and lost hope and in the meantime spent all her energy getting excited about Michigan that by the time they came around, she was kind of like.

25:02
whatever I’m sold on Michigan at this point, like didn’t even care. So I do think schools can potentially lose students in the process by deferring. I I know why they do it, but like I said, I think that’s why I just focus and channel their energy into getting excited and loving those back. If they work out awesome, like that’ll be another choice for you, but you may or may not even want it when it comes around. So. Yeah, I think that’s gotta be the exact right direction to give in that world of uncertainty.

25:30
Again, we really appreciate all the stats and information that you share and deferral stuff is, I don’t know, that information seems to be hard to come by. So for kids who are trying to figure out if they should do ED2, um A, how would you help them sort of navigate through that prioritization in their minds? And then also what data would you direct them towards? What pieces of from the school would be most important to consider?

26:00
Yeah, so I think again, I think it depends on the schools that they’re looking at, but looking at, know, what percentage of students, you know, what does the applicant pool look like for ED2? Because what I always try to tell students is don’t forget a lot of times, ED2 pools are like very successful ED1 applicants that got denied to say, you know, whatever their Harvard’s or Princeton’s or, those

26:22
5 % acceptance rate schools and now they’re going into the second round. So ED2 does not necessarily mean easier by any means. And I also say like, you’re giving up, I mean, obviously with ED1 too, you’re giving up your option to really negotiate and lay out all your options on the table. So I only encourage students to do ED2 if that was kind of part of the initial plan. You know what I mean? Like if when we were making your list in the beginning, we went into the process saying, okay,

26:51
We’re gonna do Vanderbilt first and if it doesn’t work out, we’re going to do NYU second. I don’t like the like last minute panicky detours. I just think sometimes you’re just panicking too early when you have all these other decisions that are probably gonna be coming out later that, you know, are you just freaking out and making a rash decision or was it, like I said, I tend to like the ones that were part of the plan. Of course, I know we have like your two lanes in Miami is that.

27:17
intentionally defer to try to sway into ED too. And Chicago doesn’t say anything. Yeah, so I mean, if that’s where you know you want to be beyond a doubt, then I would say go for it. But I even think like Miami, I had a student last year who applied ED, got deferred. And so she was, you know, that’s where I want to be. But in the end, it resulted in a spring admit. So like, eventually she still got what she wanted. And she, you know, she still went for the spring, but just know, I don’t know, I think it’s school dependent, but

27:46
I don’t necessarily love ED either. That’s just me. But I just think you have to just be willing to just that’s, you know, you’re just a hundred percent sold on it and that’s where you want to be. And it’s got to be worth it. But for me, it should have been a part of the initial plan, not just a knee jerk reaction. Yeah. Yeah. And I think it’s also like I had a student last year who actually it was two years ago. I think she’s a freshman there. Anyway, she, she applied ED to Duke and then she got deferred.

28:17
And she was a double legacy and she should have gotten in like there was no reason for her not to get in. And then she was really stressed out about it. So she wanted to apply to a second school. So she applied there, which again should have gotten into and got deferred. And then regular decision and she got into Michigan actually early and UVA early and then regular decision she got into both of the schools, Duke and the other school. So it was kind of one of those things where it was like.

28:42
the universe really did work out because it was like, should have been in those schools in the the get go, but then it gave her time to really make the decision whether or not she to do it. So, I mean, that doesn’t always happen, but that was kind of a nice story where that happened. And I think you’re right though with like schools like Tulane. I don’t know if you saw that article in the New York Times about the, sure everyone’s talking about that, the admissions people. And first people are focusing on how much money they’re making, but also just from a business standpoint, you could see, I mean, we saw that.

29:10
you know, we saw it happening in real time, how they were using ED and many schools are using it as an enrollment management business strategy, lock in number of students that they know are going to come. And most of the time they’re going, many of the time, much of the time they’re going to be full-paced students, but not always, because they often, they will meet full need, even for decision, but you don’t have the opportunity to compare. And then it’s like, okay, well, you didn’t get in to EA, so let’s switch you to ED too.

29:40
And they’ll ask the students to do that. And so that’s always becomes another strategy, is almost if you don’t do it, you feel like you’re not gonna get in. And they give you that option. So it does become tricky when you’re trying to advise students and figure out what the strategy is. So I think it’s a really hard thing to do. Yeah. Yeah, it would be nicer if it was just one timeline, one timeframe. You just put in your applications and everyone waits the same.

30:08
Like in England. Like everywhere else except for here. Yeah. Every other country. Another thing that kind of threw is sort of throwing me for a loop is these pre-ED ones now. Well, that’s really Chicago. Wake Forest. Oh, Chicago. yeah. Yeah, ED zero or early, you know, uh rolling ED. That’s just adding another layer of stress, I think, for the kids.

30:35
It is. I feel like every year, everything just keeps inching like earlier and earlier and earlier. But then like on the flip, I feel like things are extending later and later. Just look at it. The cycle used to be so much more predictable. You would know that most kids would, most of our kids, when we first started, like I’ve been doing this for 20 years. mean, most of would get an early decision, they would be done. And you’d be like, okay, great. Now it’s like, as you said, it’s starting earlier, it’s ending later, it’s extending. So really you’re not done until…

31:04
June, possibly. You could be going at it until June. mean, Duke was pulling kids in August. You know what I mean? It’s just getting, it’s crazy. So. And I think it’s all about managing enrollment. And there’s just, think because the world is uncertain. then at college admissions has become fodder and it’s a microcosm of the world and the uncertainty of the world gets overlaid on the uncertainty of college admissions.

31:30
and everything political that happens impacts college admissions. Like there’s just so many external forces that didn’t used to be at play as much, I don’t think. And I think that makes it really since COVID things have been bananas. Yeah. Well, it’s funny. I always try to like make predictions of like things that are gonna happen and whatever. like, think this year, we’ll see, but I feel like it started popping up last year and we may see more of it, especially that we know that there is going to be like this decline in enrollment.

32:00
is more of these guaranteed transfer admits. So I started getting more and more of those where it’s like, oh, you’re admitted, not for this year, but if you can go somewhere else for a year and get X amount. And it’s like, we kind of know that already, like that’s kind of like how the transfer process works anyway. But I think having that like guarantee in front of it is such a great marketing strategy from the college standpoint, right? It’s that these students know that you have a pathway in if you want it. And I just think, I think we’re gonna start seeing more of that.

32:30
as these schools know that there’s going to be a drop off and want to secure students without having to spend more enrollment dollars. Right. No, that’s actually a really good point. I hadn’t thought about that. But it also kind of follows suit with what’s happening in athletics, right? Because now nobody’s loyal to anyone. You can always switch at any time. And that makes it hard for the school to which someone’s leaving to manage their enrollment. it’s challenging. And I think that’s what a lot of people don’t understand is that like at the

32:57
You the, the top say, 50 schools are the schools that are have less than a 10 % acceptance rates. Those schools aren’t going to necessarily be impacted as much, but there’s so many other schools, which is the majority of colleges that are really trying to get enrollment, keep their right number up and they’re they don’t know how they’re going to do it from year to year. And and it’s hard. I mean, I used to when before I got into this directly before I worked at what year college I was there. The marketing department and and they’re at the time they’re. oh

33:25
their retention rate was like 78 % or something like that. And it was a challenge because every year they were trying to scramble to refill the class. And so they were doing it through transfers and other means of trying to get students in, but it made it harder to predict into, especially at the tuition dependent revenue. Yeah, tuition dependent universities or colleges, it makes it harder for them to kind of figure that stuff out.

33:53
I think one positive thing about social media and those alternative enrollment options is I think there used to be like a real stigma. know, parents would would feel like there was a stigma of saying, you know, my my kid is going to start sophomore year or spring term, spring semester. But now I think the kids are so out and proud with their experiences. Right. It’s big nothing ball. Like I have good friends whose son is very high achieving family and friends. The son’s

34:22
doing community college for a year and then transferring sophomore year and they are. They’re pro. Yeah, they’re like, it’s, it’s a It’s not a nothing call. They say that. They’re, they’re like, there’s the best. This is best of all, all world. But I think a few years ago, you would have sort of, you know, at a dinner party, been a little bit shy about talking about that. So I think that’s a nice thing. Actually. think the kids are really owning their paths, different kinds of paths to get to the same place. Sort of what you were alluding to earlier.

34:52
Well, my favorite article right now, favorite is the Rhodes Scholar who had a 2.08 in high school. Did you read that? So I mean, to show students that, and I always try to tell them, right, like I said, it’s not a linear path. There are so many different ways to get to where you want to do. Here’s the guy that went into the military who then went to community college who transferred into Princeton. Yes, you can transfer into Ivy’s, right? Students don’t always understand that. And now he’s one of 32 selected to be a Rhodes Scholar. So it’s like,

35:20
see that there’s all these different avenues for you. And that’s why, like you said, cut out that noise, figure out your path, how you want to get there. I think people are so much more price conscious now that a lot of people are like, totally cool. Like, yes, my kids are to go to community college and then transfer over and, you know, or go to these other options that are more affordable and go to the more expensive leader. It’s good to know that there are all these options and there’s not one right way to do it.

35:45
Jenna, I love that you do that on your Instagram, on your stories. Like you were talking about Iowa State, that you just put so much information out there, but you do highlight so many of these schools and programs that are specialized or acceptance rates that I think you really do make other people realize there are different paths. There’s different, I think you do this too.

36:10
here are these public universities that have all of these things that everyone wants in like a raw raw school and you open their eyes to them. Like you’ve opened my eyes to some of these schools either, like to some of these schools that, you know what? That might be a really good idea. It might be outside of their comfort zone, but let’s see what happens when they do some research. Right. Yeah, absolutely. And you know, with that, you know, there are so many resources on social media and we talked a little bit about.

36:37
but just on the internet and with, know, chat GBT and all these other ways that people are now getting information. How do you, someone discern what’s accurate or not? Because there is so much misinformation and harder, I feel like it’s harder to find good information than it is to find misinformation. What do you think? Right. I’m trying to teach people, like when you look at their profile, like,

37:02
or go to their profile should say when you see something, go to their profile, click on their link and like read their background. So you get a little bit more context to like who’s putting the information out. I mean, I’m a big proponent of saying like check and see if they belong to some sort of professional organization, right? See if they’re, know, IECA, HECA, NACAC, something so that you know that they have some sort of professional standards and ethics and you know that they’re regularly getting trained on what’s happening on college campuses, what’s going on in the college landscape and just really

37:33
doing your research before you take something. I mean, I have so many people that will send me stuff and be like, is this real? And I’m like, stop looking at some of this stuff. If it ends with dot AI, it’s probably like outdated or not right information to begin with. So I mean, I think it’s hard to sometimes discern, but if you can like as a parent or student, like at least go look up the person and see what their kind of credentials are, where they’ve worked or where the information’s coming from, because at least then you know, you know, is this just…

38:01
I don’t know, there’s so many, I just feel like it’s such an industry where anybody can do it. I mean, sometimes it comes from, know, groups, Facebook groups on, uh, there’s a lot of places where it comes from. Yeah, it comes everywhere. Yeah, it does. That’s good advice. Overwhelming. Yeah. I’d like to look, I sometimes tell kids if it, especially early on when it would be difficult to imagine that anyone could have done research.

38:27
And like it doesn’t say it in the school’s admissions blog, or the school’s website, take it with a grain of salt. I mean, it might be right what you’re saying, but verify. Yeah. mean, trust maybe and verify. Read and verify. Read and verify. We need to come up with a new acronym to come up with that, right? Something, yeah. And some colleges just do such an amazing job with transparency, like…

38:52
I always say shout out to UGA, shout out to UVA, Georgia Tech. mean, there are some that really just are just so forthcoming. And I think it just really helps in the end. Like it has to reduce their phone calls coming in because you’re just being very transparent about what’s happening, how decisions are made, what they value in an applicant. And so they, I think it just helps all around. And if, like you said, go to those sources.

39:15
The UVA dean she does a live every Thursday, go watch that. Like that’s the source. If you’re interested in applying there, that’s who you should be listening to, not just some random person that’s telling you why they think they got in. So. Yeah. Exactly. I’m sure you get some very interesting em direct messages, but that’s a, yeah, for another day. em So being a former admissions counselor,

39:39
What do you think are some important things for students to know about what goes into their decisions from the other side? You mentioned this earlier that, you know, it is a business and it’s them, not you. And what do you wish that students and their families understood? I think first, I mean, definitely understand, like I said, because these are business decisions, these have been set, not even by the admissions office, but board of trustees, president.

40:04
You know, they’re meeting long before you’re even applying and making decisions on what they need for their class. And so you can only control what you can in the process and things are gonna happen throughout the admission cycle, right? We’ve seen how many colleges, look at Columbia just the other day, we’re probably gonna increase enrollment by 20%. I mean, if you applied, good for you, right? Like that was lucky or like last year when Yale dropped it in like what, January, February, we’re gonna admit more students. Rice did the same thing. So you only,

40:33
have so much information and there’s so much that you’ll never know. So all you can do is really control what you can in the process and then just understand. mean, every school has their wish list just like you do in a college of what they’re looking for in students. And so the more that you can understand that so much of the class is going to be shaped. always like when I, cause I run the Navigator Network and do like group counseling, I bring up this big chart where it’s like, okay, if we can meet a hundred kids.

41:00
understand that, you know, maybe 10 of them have to be athletes and 10 of them are maybe legacy students and maybe 10 meet that low income or, you another tenant from rural areas. And so there’s all of these things that shape a class. And the more you can understand that, you’ll realize that your percent chance of getting in, if you’re not checking some of these boxes is actually much lower. And you’ll start seeing that that’s why decisions don’t always make sense. You know, you’ll always see colleges bragging that they have kids from 46 states. Well,

41:29
If you’re the only kid from South Dakota applying to a certain school, your likelihood is going to be stronger than the kid that maybe has, from the same high school as a whole bunch of other kids. So it’s just understanding how colleges are shaping a class. And that’s why I said, I love to just constantly educate parents as much as I can so that the decisions don’t feel deflating, that you understand that there’s just so much more going into it. And there could be…

41:57
some things that really work in your favor, that’ll be nice surprises. And then there’ll be other times that you just, it doesn’t make sense. You’re like, I can’t tell you how many messages I get where it’s like, my student had a four point something and this many APs and Johnny down the street didn’t, but he got in, it’s so unfair. And I’m like, you know, it’s.

42:16
There’s so much more to it that goes into it. that’s why you can’t, you what works for one school and makes you so perfect for one makes you completely wrong for another. You’re the same applicant. You haven’t done anything differently, but, you know, it’s just goes to show that they’re prioritizing something about you here. They’re not, you know, I had a student years ago, well, not too many, would say maybe 2019, who was in the top 20%. This is when I worked in a high school, top 20 % of her class, of the class got into Cornell and we were like,

42:46
How did she get into Cornell? No, I mean, she was good student, but like our valedictorian got denied, our salutatorian, you know, and we’re just really like completely befuddled at that point. Like what is going on? And like lo and behold, we figured out that Cornell has an endowment set aside for families of 9-11, who, children, parents had died. And so she was kind of at that very tail end. She was probably, you know, a tiny, tiny baby when her dad had passed away. And…

43:13
It made sense then, like this is, that was her hole in. And you can’t go around and tell all the other kids in the class, well, that’s why she got in. But it made sense of like, that just goes to show colleges have priorities. They sometimes have money set aside for certain groups of students. And so that’s why when you say, well, how did she get in and I didn’t, there’s so many variables that just you don’t either know about, don’t make sense to you. Like I said, you’ll never know. But.

43:40
it works at one school, but that student wouldn’t have gotten into say Stanford or wouldn’t have gotten into, you know what I mean? But for that school, she had something that checked the box and made her very attractive to that school. students just have to realize, like I said, there’s so much more that goes into these decisions. And there’s so much, there’s so many different types of students in the world that I think is also hard for people to understand when you’re in your little bubble, you just see like the little.

44:06
group around you, but there’s just so many different experiences that people have and it does bring different things to the community. I think the other thing too is a lot of people don’t understand the whole like in context to the high school you go to and that’s the other piece that I’m always trying to say like, okay, if you go to one school where maybe a large percent don’t go to college and maybe the average SAT score at that school is a 1200 and you have a 1400 and you’re tough like you’re a standout.

44:36
If you’re coming from a high school where it’s just kind of expected that you get a 1400 and now you’re 50 % of your class there, everything is, you’re taking into context. always tell students like, pull out your transcript, pull out your school profile. How do you look in context to your profile? Because that is how colleges are looking at you. They’re not looking at you. Freehold High School down the street, students can take five, six APs a year. I worked at St. John Vianney, our students could max at three. Like you’re not.

45:03
being looked at in the same capacity and students need to understand that. I think they start saying, well, I had this many and this many and it’s like, no, no, no, no. How did you look and compare it to your high school and what was available to you? Right. No, I mean, that’s very true. We always start off all of our meetings doing that. Yeah. And most times people don’t know what a school profile is. I’ve never seen it before. Right. And they don’t really understand how to interpret it, especially to put themselves within that context. Right.

45:31
We always put that at all of our first meeting. So we always just like to end or start with some truths and myths. And I think you’ve covered some of them. What would you say are some truths or myths about college decisions? Well, I think truth in general, and I know this is a college podcast, but I always try to tell students, like, you don’t have to go to college, right? And I say that because I think sometimes students feel like they have to or that it’s expected. And maybe it is depending on the family that you’re coming from.

46:00
I always want students to know that there’s lots of ways to be successful in life and that there are so many options out there. And part of your journey in researching even colleges should just be looking at all of your options that you have, because like I said, I don’t think there’s one path. So I always think it’s just important for students to understand that. And like I said in the beginning, we’re in a very, I mean, the landscape is changing.

46:21
And I feel like there are students right now that are going to school and there may or may not be jobs available for them, depending on the way AI goes. We’re already seeing how computer science students are struggling, whereas like engineers are having a field day, right? In terms of options. I always say, you wanna make sure you’re, I mean, this is an investment in yourself. I think, of course college is fun and there’s a social piece of it, but it’s expensive. And so you wanna make sure that you’re making the right investment in yourself.

46:49
so that you have options later. And I think it’s important too, as students are deciding where to go, who is going to help them with their next move? Like what does four years later look like? And so I always tell students too, like don’t discount those kind of small liberal arts colleges that really focus so heavily on kind of preparing for that next step, right? They don’t have maybe grad schools or if they do, they’re very small. So I mean, their whole reputation.

47:16
relies on getting students kind of to their next path. And so I always tell students, know, make sure you look into those options as well. And the other thing I say too is like, if you know you wanna work in a certain field, like check out where you might wanna live after too. You know, if you’re very invested in, you know, wanting to work in say politics, okay, maybe you’re applying to Georgetown, but if you don’t get in, there’s lots of ways you could be in the DC area and get those same internships that those Georgetown kids would be getting. And so,

47:45
I think that’s always an important piece. always tell parents like, look at where the internship opportunities, what employers are working with the campus. Because when I worked in New York City, I mean, yes, I was at Marymount Manhattan, but they were pulling kids from our school, just like they were pulling them from Pace and Fordham and NYU. our kids would go to internships and they were surrounded by those other students. So if your goal is to be, say, working on Wall Street or working in DC, like I said, set yourself up where you can be successful in those areas.

48:15
Yeah, I think that’s such good advice. And I also want to pick up on what you were saying about the liberal arts colleges or just the colleges that really focus on critical thinking, because I think what I’ve been reading a lot, and I’m sure you guys have as well, just like listening to what employers are saying that they want from students. And I don’t know that it’s necessarily changed as it’s always been the case, but like those critical thinking skills, those are the only things that right now AI can’t do.

48:41
Right. And so it’s being able to combine those thinking skills with the tools that are out there and that are always changing. Right. And so it’s that ability to learn, to learn new things, to figure out how you can apply what it is that you need to do by using those tools that constantly evolve. That’s what’s going to hopefully set you apart when you’re working in the job market. Because I know it’s tough right now, because I’ve been getting that question this year. It makes sense. oh

49:10
like, okay, so they go to college and then what happens if they can’t get a job? And so it’s again, uncharted territory that we’re all trying to navigate. So. Yeah, absolutely. you for your being the guiding light in this and helping people and families do that. Any last words that you want to share? Don’t believe everything you hear on social media. I feel like that’s a good one to say. I mean, if you’re a parent listening, I would say like,

49:38
I feel like there’s so many right now I’m constantly seeing like if you haven’t started in eighth grade, you’re never going to a good school, right? I feel like, like I said, just watch everything you hear. I can’t tell you how many people reach out and say, I’m already behind. And it’s like, no. Let’s start with where you are and then we can go from there. So I mean, if you’re a parent listening to this, try to weed out some of that noise just for yourself as you’re going through the process because it is overwhelming, but it does work out the way it’s meant to be. And then,

50:05
Just enjoy senior year. Like I said, so many students get stripped of that experience because they just focus so much on things that are just out of your control that if they can just really, you know, lean into where they are right now and know that everything’s gonna come right. Those dates and decisions will come and they’ll drop and you know, they’ll work out or they won’t, but you’ll keep moving forward and you’ll be successful. So.

50:26
You know, just good luck through the tough time, because I know this month is can be challenging. So everybody that, you know, we wish everybody good luck as they start hearing about their decisions. Well, thank you. CBMers for tuning in and thank you. Jenna for an epic episode. We will definitely have a link to your Instagram and your resources on our line.

50:48
To catch more episodes of College Bound Mentor, make sure to follow or subscribe on your favorite podcast platform and tell a fellow parent or student about the podcast. And if you like what you heard, please rate our podcast to boost our rankings so more people can find out about us. To learn more, visit CollegeBoundMentor.com. Until next time, you got this!

The post Dealing with College Decisions Dropping with Jenna Schebell of The College Navigators – College Bound Mentor Podcast #40 appeared first on College Bound Mentor.

This is Episode #39 and you’ll hear us talk how to build a meaningful, college-ready summer. Listen to the episode on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, and your other favorite podcast spots – follow and leave a 5-star review if you’re enjoying the show!

• Episode Summary & Player
• Show Notes
• Learn more about the College Bound Mentor podcast
• Transcript

College Bound Mentor Podcast Episode #39: Making the Most of Summer with Your College Application in Mind

It’s never too early to start figuring out what your student will be doing next summer. There are endless options, but which one will be the most rewarding – for personal growth AND adding to that resume? In this episode, we first cover how to make the most of your summer experiences, how to nail the outreach letter for internships, and whether it’s still beneficial to get a summer job. Then, we share case studies so you can hear how high school students with very different passions & interests used their summer experiences to make a truly remarkable impact on their communities – and in turn, their college applications. Here’s a small sample of what you’ll hear in this episode:

• How summer camp builds confidence, independence, and leadership
• Ways to explore academics through courses and research
• Why regular jobs can outshine fancy internships
• Real student stories showing creative summer pathways
• How to plan early for competitive summer programs

Subscribe to College Bound Mentor on your favorite podcast platform and learn more at CollegeBoundMentor.com.

Check out the episode and show notes below for much more detail.

Show Notes

• Making the Most of Summer with Your College Application in Mind
  • [0:19] Welcome to the College Bound Mentor
  • [00:46] How to make the most of summer in high school
  • [01:24] What students gain from summer camp
  • [03:04] Leadership at camp (CITs, counselors, day camp vs. sleepaway)
  • [04:57] Should students stay at camp as CITs/counselors? Does it “hurt” college chances?
  • [06:36] Meaningful alternatives to camp: academic programs, intellectual exploration
  • [07:18] Online college-level classes (Coursera, edX) and what students can take
  • [07:52] On-campus pre-college programs
  • [08:21] How students can find research opportunities without family connections
  • [08:59] How to write a strong cold outreach email to professors
  • [13:12] Using summer to bolster academics
  • [14:24] The value of a regular job and why colleges appreciate work experience
  • [19:34] Internships vs. jobs: what actually matters for college admissions
  • [20:09] Using summer for reconnection, culture, travel, family time
  • [21:13] Case Study #1: The curious, geography-obsessed tennis coach + volunteer
  • [26:11] Case Study #2: The “Renaissance Engineer”
  • [30:32] Case Study #3: Business-minded students – paths into entrepreneurship & business
  • [35:51] Internships: how to ensure they offer real substance
  • [36:14] Jobs that teach business skills
  • [39:58] When to start planning summer (now!) + early deadlines
  • [41:38] Closing remarks & episode wrap-up
  • Theme Song: “Happy Optimistic Americana” by BDKSonic

What is the College Bound Mentor podcast?

Lisa, Abby, and Stefanie know college. They also know students. With over 30 years combined experience mentoring young people, they’ll show you why understanding yourself is the key to finding the right college. Each episode, hear trends, case studies, and interviews with students who have gone through it all – giving you valuable insight to survive the college application process and beyond. Hosted by Lisa Bleich, Abby Power, and Stefanie Forman, Partners of College Bound Mentor.

Transcript

Please note: this transcript is not 100% accurate.

00:05
That can be a really rich experience or it can be nothing.

00:19
Hey, CBMers, we are actually going to be talking about summer for this episode. We are your co-hosts, Lisa, Abby, and Stefanie. And even though it’s the middle of November, it’s almost Thanksgiving, now is actually the time it’s got started off because Stefanie was starting to investigate summer camps for her seven-year-old daughter. And so it’s time that a lot of students right now are really thinking about summer.

00:46
do you make the best of summer? And we’re going to talk about the different ways you can when you’re in high school. Summer camp is definitely one of the options. We’re also going to do some case studies for students of how they use their summers to their advantage. So let’s get going on this. I wish I actually didn’t ever go to summer camp. It wasn’t a thing where I was uh when I was growing up, although my mom tried to get us to go to summer camp.

01:13
because she grew up going to summer camp and really liked it and she was a counselor and it was kind of the whole thing. But in California, it wasn’t as much of a thing, but certainly summer camp’s one way that you can explore it. And as you guys were saying, just like the studies, what are some of the things that you think you benefit from going to summer camp? What are some of the things that have come out from that? Independence. The fact that at such, I think I was eight or nine when I went away and it was eight weeks. Now there’s no eight weeks, it’s seven weeks or we were talking about their session camps.

01:42
So it could be one week, it could be four weeks, it could be three and a half weeks. But the fact that at such a young age that you’re away from your parents or guardians and you are responsible for yourself and you’re just kind of thrown in there and you don’t have your parents to go to and you have to figure that out. And that’s really hard no matter what age you’re at. So I think that level of independence and then that leads to so much that leads to confidence that leads to

02:10
doing things on your own and being outside of your comfort zone for the first time that you wouldn’t normally do probably at that young age. What I mean, there’s a lot. What do you guys think? I also even remember for me, but saw it for my sons having a group of friends outside of school. Yeah, that’s a big one. There’s always going to be drama at some point at school. So you need to else, somewhere else to duck out to, I think.

02:36
And it’s also unplugged mostly. mean, most of the summer camps even now are unplugged. And I think that’s a huge thing because there’s very limited opportunities to just be completely in the moment, in the space, with somebody not having a phone or a device that’s gonna pull you away from it. So I do think it helps you create really strong bonds with other people. It also could bring in leadership. A lot of our clients will be summer camp counselors.

03:04
So that’s another thing. And even if they’re not doing sleepaway camp, even if they’re doing a day camp, that’s also a big piece where a lot of kids will have those responsibilities. So even though sometimes people say, oh, you know, don’t talk about summer camp, I’ve had some really good essays come out of summer camp. I had a student once who got into Penn and as we were, you know, brainstorming and talking about all of his experiences.

03:29
He was a numbers guy. He was always thinking in numbers, thinking in ways how to calculate things. And one of the things that he had done over the summer was he actually developed or created the Color War game. And he had to figure out what were going to be the prizes and how many kids were going to be in each of the groups and what was the pace of it. So he had this Google spreadsheet that he figured out all of the different to the minute of how everything was going to run.

03:56
He wanted to give them rubber duckies. We used to joke and call him rubber duckie boy, because it was like he had like a duckie that was going to be given for each prize. But then, of course, when the kids started coming in and doing the color war, they didn’t follow any of the rules that he had precisely planned out in his mind. And so everything sort of went chaotic. And so he had to quickly, on the fly, like recalculate how many points would be taken away if they did something this and how many points would be given of that. And so it was this whole essay about how he was constantly using numbers.

04:25
to figure out how he was gonna make Color War. And so even though it was driven from camp, it was a great essay about that. So there’s of ways that you Yeah, I remember that too. It was my first, I think, full year that I was with you guys. And I remember, oh yeah, this makes sense. We can write about camp when it was, yeah. If it makes sense. I mean, if it makes sense, absolutely, right? So I think that’s something.

04:52
I think I’ve gotten that question dozens of times. You know, kids who’ve gone to the same camp for years and years and years and years and a lot of their friends are going back to be CITs, freshman or sophomore year, and the parents want the kids to do something more productive. I’m doing air quotes. I get that question a ton. Like, is it going to hurt their chances for admissions to college if they are a CIT at camp and or even a counselor? I mean, I, I feel like the way I always answer that is

05:21
if this is where, if this is your kid’s happy place. Yeah, absolutely. I don’t know how you, you don’t let them do it. And being a CITN counselor obviously comes with leadership opportunities. And this past summer or no, two summers ago, I had a kid do something really cool for the first time. It was the same thing. The parents were really, he ended up going to a very highly selective liberal arts school. So the parents were pretty adamant about him doing something very academic, but he was, his community service was volunteering at a library.

05:50
and he ended up creating book groups at the camp where he was a CIT. Each cabin had a book group and he moderated them and came up with the book ideas and questions. uh Pretty cool at a boys camp. There’s ways to really make the most of the experience, I think. I had a student who was interested in healthcare or like pre-health or I think she wanted to be a nurse.

06:18
So she ended up working in the nurse’s office while she was at camp as a CIT. So like there’s, you know, you have to kind of always make it your own. And I think that there’s always a way that you could do it. the thing about summer is that you want to do something that’s meaningful to you. And it’s like not so much what you do, but it’s what you take away from it and what you bring to it. And I think that’s the key for summer. So what are some other ways, you know?

06:43
We’re all, I guess we all want to go back to camp right now. I felt like I was at a camp when I was at that Rancho La Puerta. oh What are some other ways that you can spend your summers as a student? are some of that? mean, one of the ways would be like, as an example, if you want to go completely the opposite of camp, you want to explore an intellectual interest or explore a new interest, right? So what are some examples of where you’ve seen students do that really successfully? Yeah, for an academic interest,

07:12
kind of all over the board. I’ve had kids take online classes. There are two really good websites, Coursera and edX, not TedX, edX, that have college level free classes. um Some of them you have to pay a little bit, but it’s mostly nominal. I’ve had kids take psychology classes, sociology classes, finance classes, economics classes all over the place. And you know, it’s about what you learn and what you take away. So.

07:40
And that’s, you can do it, it’s a, a synchronistic, is that the word? You can do it at your own pace. I’ve had kids do obviously the traditional college summer programs on campus, you know, all over the place. Brown, Stanford, uh Wake Forest. Arbor. I mean, they all have them. They’re all different. Yeah. Some, some are run by the college. Some are run by a bigger company.

08:05
sometimes call them pay to play that operates on the college campus. But some of those are really high quality also. So it’s all, it’s really about what it is, not where you go. You can’t worry about where you go. I have had kids do continue their research through the summer. If they’re doing advanced science research or some kind of social science research or computer science research or math research, I’ve had them continue that over the summer. Yeah, I was just going to enter, well, a few really great points you brought up, but

08:32
One, with the research, I feel like a lot of times students come in or families come in, it’s kind of with internships too, which I know we’ll ultimately talk about or shadowing experiences, and they feel like they can’t get these research opportunities unless they know someone at a lab or at a college or et cetera. And I know that you guys have had luck with this too, but I’ve had students who’ve had a lot of luck, just kind of not cold calling, but have just been really persistent with emails and they’ve been.

08:59
very specific and I think when their passion and when it’s really genuine is in that email or is in that outreach and they’re persistent. I’ve had a lot of students be successful with that. So I just don’t want anyone who’s listening to feel like if they don’t know someone in a certain field that especially now I think it’s almost refreshing when you have that gritty kid that just keeps going after what they want, whether it’s again research or something else, another summer opportunity.

09:29
And I’ve had students do that as well. Stephanie, what would you, for somebody listening, what would they write? What would be a letter? What would be kind of an initial outreach letter? What would be the gist of it? Yeah, that’s a great question. I think a short introduction, who they are and what their passion about and maybe what they’re studying in school or if they’ve had any experience and why they’re interested in this specific field.

09:55
I had a student whose grandfather suffered from dementia and that was something that he wanted to uncover everything there was about dementia. So first he did, I mean, this is all he did this on his own volition. This was before senior year and he started, and he’s in, I’m in New Jersey. So it was, he was also in New Jersey. So he was looking in the area and he started to look up all the professors who were, oh who was doing research in this. uh

10:25
in this area. And then I don’t know, it probably a list, honestly, of like 20 people within New Jersey, New York, Philadelphia area, Connecticut area. And that’s what it was. It was just, this is why this is my mission. This is why this is important to me. This is what I’ve done in the past. And this is how I’m also going to be an asset and in a humble way and be impactful. And this is why I want to help you out. And I want to learn as much as possible. Yeah. No, I think that’s such great advice because

10:54
It really can happen. if you can’t do it that way, there’s always these pay to play or there’s a lot of different programs. But we always recommend starting with the free option rather than having to pay for something else. Another area where students will use the summers if they have a special talent or they’re an athlete, a prospective recruited athlete, summer is a really good time to develop your portfolio. There’s many programs that will allow you to do that. And the one area

11:23
where it does give you a slight advantage to apply to do a program at a school where you think you want to apply and get in, is that typically when you’re doing a portfolio or some arts-based program, like at a Carnegie Mellon or at a Tisch or a USC film school, you’re actually going to be taking classes with professors that will be reviewing that. And so that gives them an opportunity to get to know you as a student, to see how teachable you are, and also give you some…

11:51
feedback so that you can incorporate that once you put your regular portfolio together. So we’ve definitely had students who’ve had success with that. And then also athletes, know, athletic piece. There’s so many college showcases and so that’s an opportunity for you to get yourself before a coach. And athletes seem to know about these usually and then just see if you can get some interest from a coach, particularly for the D3 schools or the Ivies. Anything else on special talent or athletic ability that you’ve seen?

12:19
Some of my athletes do coaching or reffing or umping over the summer, either as a paid job or volunteering for a community organization. That seems to be, know, if you really love your sport and you want to just, and that’s how you want to spend your time. Cause I think given the experience and the growth of a competitive athlete, they have a lot to offer in terms of mentorship for younger kids. So I think that’s a nice way for them to spend their time. No, definitely.

12:48
I think it’s also a good way to think about community service is that it’s always good to share your talent. So whatever that talent happens to be, if you could share it with the community, that’s a really good way to think about how you want to spend your time doing community service and building leadership. That’s a way that you could do that over the summer in lots of different ways. Another thing that we’ve seen students do is if they need to bolster their academics or their test scores. So summer is a good time to do that. So sometimes it’s that if there’s a deficit and you want to

13:18
get ahead of that, or if you have to retake a class, you’ve had some students who have needed to do that. Or if you want to jump ahead in math, a lot of times students will take or get a requirement out of the way. Studying for SATs, ACTs is when you have a big chunk of time. So a lot of students will do that over the summer. So that’s another way to use that in a productive way. Yeah, I’ve had kids do that this past summer and the summer before. Almost every summer. I have kids who are trying to jump ahead.

13:48
so that they can take the class they want to take their senior year. I think it’s really important too now as we’re seeing where especially like business programs and engineering programs are requiring certain to be at certain levels in math, especially for the most selective schools. em So if you know what type of college experience you want and you know what you want to study, a lot of people don’t and that’s fine. But if you know you want to go into engineering, computer science,

14:16
business. I think that’s also a really smart use of time over the summer. And then getting a job. I mean, that’s like, you know, that used to be what you did in the summer. Like I had a summer job. Did you guys all have summer jobs? Oh, yeah. Yeah. What was your stuff? Mostly waiting tables at country clubs, camp counts, day camp counselor. I worked at the beach club. Sounds very glamorous. a lot of guys. There were a lot of boys that we always had around.

14:45
Basically what we did is we would make all the salads, for the uh grab and go salads. So we’d make all the salads in the kitchen beforehand in the morning. And then we’d serve popcorn. uh We had that awful, those awful popcorn machines where you put in this like stick of like really processed butter and then would pop and then you would turn it over and try not to burn your hand, burn your arm when you were doing it. And then we’d hand out popcorn on the beach. So that was two summers. It was fun. It was a fun summer though.

15:13
Yeah, so getting a job, it teaches responsibility, it teaches interaction with people. I just met with a student yesterday and you know, sometimes if you don’t do a lot of stuff in school, for whatever reason, clubs aren’t your thing or you just haven’t found something, a lot of times work is the place where students really come alive. Like I had a student actually last year who, he just came alive when he worked. I mean, he was a much…

15:38
better work on some level than he was a student, at least early on in high school. And then the work gave him confidence and responsibility. And then he became a much better student because he could build that confidence outside of school and then apply it to school. So I think work is a really sometimes underrated and it doesn’t have to be an internship. mean, a lot of kids want to get an internship, but unless you know someone, it’s hard to get an internship as a high school student, particularly because there’s so many.

16:07
high school, so many college students. And then of course, there’s a lot of now a lot of graduate students who have graduated college. So getting a job, scooping ice cream, any of those things is sort of a rite of passage on some level. I’ve definitely had kids who are their best selves working. And you can tell, I mean, and they’ll just tell you, I just love to work. I love to be there. And then they get all kinds of great experience working with difficult customers, reporting to a boss.

16:35
uh Managing your time showing up on time and then i’ve had a couple of really motivated kids there was one this from a bunch years ago now who went to the business school at see boulder. was working at not a startup restaurant but a newer kind of restaurant chain and he got involved in bookkeeping marketing a little bit i mean his own initiative i mean they didn’t need that you know they didn’t ask him but he was kinda like okay this is a growing business icon of really want understand this.

17:04
what can I do? I can check your books, I can do all this stuff. So yeah, I think that’s a really good way for some kids to become their best selves and really grow as people. I’ve had a lot of students in the past two years, actually, write their personal statements about their jobs. And one, to your point, Abby, like she was working at a bagel store and that and she loved it. And then she started, they became viral and she started doing their social media because of like TikTok she was doing. oh

17:33
So yeah, you just would never think that would come out of working at the community bagel store that everyone went to on the mornings. Okay, now I’m thinking about one insane story. This is probably the best working kid’s story I know. But I had a kid who went to, she ended up going to Wash U. She graduated probably four or five years ago. She was a yoga instructor at this, at Core Power Yoga. that an Yep. Yeah, exactly. So she was a yoga instructor.

18:01
She did the yoga training. She was super into it. She ended up doing some social media stuff for them, just kind of because she took the initiative. She thought she was interested in business. She went to Wash U. She studied business and something else that I can’t remember right now. She got an investment bank. She kept teaching yoga with them because she loved it. It was her happy place. So she did it on the side. She got an investment banking job, Wall Street investment banking job, an elite boutique firm in New York City. She did it for two years.

18:30
decided no thank you. And then she was hired by the company to do strategy. Oh, that’s amazing. this relationship with them for now. I mean, she’s just a kid for like 10 years. And she got this like primo job with them. You know, like a really, really hard to get substantive strategy job for a woman owned company that’s growing. That’s awesome. Oh, I love that.

19:00
Is that core power? Yeah, amazing. Yeah, that is amazing. Yeah, I mean, you never know where it’s going to lead you. And that’s the thing about work. You never know how it’s going to come back later. And honestly, just the fact that you have a job in high school, whatever that job is, it helps you get the next job, whatever it is, because they see that you’re responsible. And I’ve heard admissions people say, like, we want you to be responsible to somebody other than your parents. And that’s a really important thing. So getting a job is a very, very cool thing to do.

19:29
And then on the other side of that, we talked a little bit of internships and uh I’m gonna do a case study on that, but it’s also an opportunity to explore a potential career, a major. So if you can get an internship, that’s good, but just it’s important to know like what you’re actually doing in the internship because if you’re just, sometimes it’s good you’re observing, you’re seeing what other people are doing. Sometimes you can actually have an impact in the company. And so it really just depends on what it is and what you can take away from it.

19:58
But we’ve had students who have had some really good internships and they’ve taken some really nice things away from it. And then we talked at the beginning about like reconnecting with family and friends and just re-energizing that super important. So obviously summer camp is one, lot of families use the summer to travel back to their, if they’re living far away from other extended family, they can travel back and have that. We’ve had a lot of kids write about the summers in France or the summers in India or something.

20:28
where they have that reconnection. So that’s another way that people can use their summers. And again, it’s what you take from it as opposed to what you’re actually doing. Sometimes you just need to do nothing and that’s perfectly fine. I’m excited for summer now. want it to be. uh What are you going to do Steph? Our summers are now all filled with work. Essays. yeah, the warm weather and yeah, taking a little time off.

20:58
Yeah, our summer is May. Our summer is not even May anymore. It’s like a week of May. That’s right. So, all right. So now I think we’re going to move on to some case studies. I’m going to talk about a student that I worked with and Arun. We’re going to call him the curious geography-obsessed tennis instructor and volunteer. So before I get to the volunteer part, I want to talk about

21:28
who he is as a person. So you talk to him, he leads with curiosity for everything. He’s a student who’s senior year, he sat in a class, he had space in his schedule and he wasn’t even receiving credit for it just because he wanted to challenge himself and sit in that class. He actually ended up getting credit for it in the long run, but that’s the type of student he is. He just wants to learn, but he had this real…

21:53
uh healthy obsession with geography. He also loves tennis, which I’ll get into in a little bit. He founded a YouTube channel where he would post short videos about his passion for history and specifically about borders and how they were created, which was really intriguing. I learned a lot from him and he would create quizzes. He was a member of the school’s geography club. He did model UN and then his other real passion was tennis.

22:23
So he played tennis forever as a young kid. ended up being another great fun fact about him is that he was the captain of his varsity tennis team and they were top team in the state, but he was a doubles player. He wasn’t first singles, he wasn’t second singles, third singles. I know it works differently in different states and he still made so much impact even though he wasn’t the…

22:50
the best player on the team. So again, shows a lot about his character. And outside of school, he was a coach, he was an instructor, he coordinated match play for local tennis clubs. So he had a lot of interaction with students. The one thing though, that there was a bit of a gap on, even though he had so much to offer, he was really making impact in all his different communities, he didn’t have any volunteer work.

23:16
Again, even though he was this dedicated coach in his tennis world and he was helping in so many different ways, and this also really came from him, he didn’t really know how to give back and he was trying to navigate that and figure that out. So when we met junior year, the first thing that we kind of came upon together was tennis. Like there’s so much, I know Abby and Lisa was, they were talking about this before, especially with athletes as a way.

23:45
to spend their summers is to coach is to mentor is to volunteer. So we started to brainstorm of ways that he could give back to his local community. So he did that in a few ways. The first thing he did was acing autism. So he helped students on the autism spectrum learn how to play tennis and he really helped them develop social connections and

24:14
understand what fitness was and also help them with impulse control. There was a lot of one-on-one work with them. And then another thing that he did that was similar was love serving autism. And these programs, these ACing Autism and Love Serving Autism, they lasted several weeks and he would just do that kind of on the weekends. And then, but where he really found his footing,

24:40
meaning that he started to do that. He did this in the spring, he did this in the fall, he did this, he did this when the weather was nice in the summer and you could be outside playing all day. He did something in New Jersey called the Greater Newark Tennis and the Education Network. And he taught kids ages 19 to 18 in the Newark community how to play tennis. And…

25:04
He loved it so much that he started to maintain the rapport with these students outside of these 12 weeks. And he encouraged them to play in tennis tournaments. He took them to tennis tournaments. So it really became a part of his life. And I think a lot of times we think like, again, we started meeting when he was a junior, like, oh my gosh.

25:29
I’ve no community service. And it’s not like you should be doing community service to get into college. You should be doing service to your community because this is a part of who we are as people. We wanna give back. But sometimes we just don’t know how. But yeah, this is just who he is. The college he’s going to has acing autism. So he’s now doing that in college. So that’s really the scope of Varun. Yeah, I have a client who’s doing

25:57
does love serving autism as well and he really enjoys it. And I did not know about the Newark tennis one so I’m gonna have to add that to my list. I’m glad, thanks for sharing that. That’s great. All right, so I’m going to talk about Alex who is the Renaissance man engineer. He is someone who has multiple interests and talents. He is a really strong guitar player and he also loves thinking about problem solving and engineering related issues. But he was also

26:25
equally fascinated by big philosophical questions. He used his summers really to get, he did research in high school. So while he was in school, his school had a research component to it. So he was able to do research and enter various science fairs, et cetera. And then he used his summer to get real world engineering experience by working at a prototyping lab. And he actually developed a guitar that would light up and help new musicians learn how to do chords.

26:53
because he knew that that was one of the hard things that when you were learning to play the guitar, you didn’t actually know where to put your fingers. And so he tried to figure out, how could you make that easier? So he created, he was in this organization or this like a prototyping lab and he was given the task to create a new product, like come up with a new idea. So he thought, well, I love to the guitar and I love engineering and tinkering and things.

27:20
So how do I make that easier for someone to learn? So he created this guitar that had LED lights underneath it, and so that you would push a cord and then it would show you exactly where to place your fingers on the guitar. And so it was a really cool way to teach new guitar players how to do that. So that was something that he did and he really enjoyed that. And then the following summer, he interned at a company that made lithium batteries. And so that was building upon his engineering.

27:50
And then he was also interested in sustainability and how mechanical engineering could create more efficient motors. Also how naval engineering uses water, how to make engines that work within water, within sustainability. So all of those things kind of helped him think about that stuff. And then the other big thing that he did over the summer was because he was interested in music, he did a summer program at Berkeley.

28:17
And he wasn’t necessarily going to school for music, but it was definitely a complimentary angle to his application. And he did really want to continue to participate in that. So he did a summer program at Berkeley. And then he also was interested in service. And so his school ran a program to help refugee children over the summer. And he did it all three summers while he was in his high school.

28:43
And he started off as a teacher and then he moved on to become an advanced leader by his last summer. So he was really strategic in using his summers to show all of the different sides of him. So sort of like the engineering career side of him, the service side where he’s helping people learn, and then also becoming a leader within that, and then also going deep in his music and then the crossover between bringing music and engineering together. And then he ended up going to Michigan for engineering. So that’s where he is right now.

29:13
That’s so impressive that he. did a lot. Yeah, he was a very interesting young man. He is very interesting young man. He had a lot of a lot of interests, which I think made him that much more fascinating. And he liked to see how things connected. So that was kind of cool. Amazing.

29:34
So, if you want to talk to us a little bit about if you’re interested in business, because we had sort of the service person, we had the engineering music person. Maybe you can talk about some ideas for business students, what they might be able to do. Yeah, I think I’ll talk about one specific business student and then quickly talk about a few others and how they approached it because.

29:56
Business isn’t something that’s so easy for high school students to access, right? Like what business wants a 17 year old’s help, you know, in any real uh sort of business way, finance, accounting, investments, you know, some kids get lucky with the connection through their parents or, you know, sometimes by their own initiative, but it’s really kind of tough. Most high schools don’t teach, you know, it’s hard to take a business class. You can take economics maybe, but it’s hard to get exposure, I would say to business.

30:25
before you get to college. So yeah, I think it’s worth talking about how some kids have done it. So the one young woman I wanna talk about, she uh had an interest, two very specific interests, one in entrepreneurship. She was just kind of one of those people who wanted to do her own thing. She always knew that. And also kind of global community service. So…

30:51
She did two things simultaneously in ninth grade. She started doing these trips with this company called Moon Dance Adventures, where she would travel for two weeks over the summer and do a very intensive community service project. she did something with coral reefs. I mean, these were more intense and more immersive than a lot, like a lot of hard work, challenging. ah So you’re either that person or you’re not. But she started doing that and then she also started her own jewelry business.

31:18
just making beaded jewelry, selling it online, and she would give a percentage of her profits away, which is a nice, lovely thing to do, but not that earth shattering. So as she got older, she kept doing the same thing. So summer after sophomore year, she did the exact same thing. Then summer after junior year, she went to Georgetown for their entrepreneurship program. She specifically

31:45
targeted that one because there’s an element of social impact to it. So social impact entrepreneurship. And there she actually really learned what it meant. So it’s funny, cause a lot of business schools when you’re applying to the undergrad program, they’ll say, what’s a business issue that has a social component that you’re interested. But, know, that’s a hard question. That’s a very complex world. And she actually took a class and really got a deep understanding of what

32:14
ah Non-profit you know how to organize nonprofit the difference between for profit nonprofit i mean she really really learned a lot and became very committed to this idea of starting a company with a social component. ah was super believable given that all of her sort of stuff came together she read a book that she literally was life changing i can’t remember the name of the book but was life changing for her at that program.

32:39
She contacted the author and had sort of correspondences with him. She was really a go-getter. Anyway, she ended up going to Georgetown. That was her first choice, Business School. One of the reasons is because their entrepreneurship program is really focused on social impact versus at Babson or some other places where it’s not, that’s accessible, but Georgetown’s is really focused on that. So that was a perfect fit for her and she ended up going there.

33:05
That’s one example of someone I’ve had business kids do all kinds of things. honestly, know, the few kids that I’m about to mention now went to all the same sort of level of business school, you know, level of selectivity. So I’ve had kids, as I mentioned, take uh Coursera or edX classes. There’s one specific one that a lot of my kids have done on Coursera called Financial Markets. It’s a Yale class.

33:32
There’s also introduction to corporate finance given by Penn. um You know, they’re really high quality classes. So last summer I had a kid do financial markets and also work on building his own business. He wanted to be an entrepreneur, but nothing to do with social impact. He created a golf related product with two friends and they developed it, came up with a prototype, did a business plan.

34:00
um Got some investors from family friends, but, but pitched it worked really hard pitching it to golf clubs to public golf courses to individuals to stores and they actually did. Pretty decently in sales that kid ended up he was an athlete. He was a golfer. He ended up going to Notre Dame for business. He got into Georgetown too though. And then another um young man went to the Wharton program, the finance program there.

34:29
And did some amazing work. mean, that’s a pretty robust program. It’s it’s selective. I’m not sure how selective it is, because I’ve never had a kid not get in. But anyway, he ended up doing evaluation of an energy company and presenting it to an, you know, a panel of professors. That was a very valuable experience for him because he literally learned how to do part of what you learn how to do as a first year analyst at an investment bank. So then when he went.

34:57
you interviewing for investment banks afterwards he really had something to talk about you know i had a kid work at a hardware store who did the same thing as that young woman yoga he got involved in the books he started you know doing some accounting for them and also you know the that hardware store kinda came up on some hard times and he helped with kind of marketing and analyzing margins on certain products for them so they could.

35:25
be more profitable in terms of their what they were carrying. So let me see if there’s any other kids. So online classes, college classes, working on building your own business or creating your own business, getting a job, having an internship. I’ve had kids have internships at like investment companies. I mean, obviously that’s sort of through connections. And to your point earlier, Lisa, that can be a really rich experience or it can be nothing.

35:55
And I would say putting the name of an investment company on your resume means nothing if you have nothing to talk about, you know, what you did or what you learned. You know, it’s not going to impress anybody that you ran errands at some investment company. think another thing to think about for business is that it doesn’t always have to be sort of like business related. Like I’ve had students who have run theater camps or run the backstage of theater or been the stage manager.

36:23
or I had a student who worked at a very busy ice cream store all throughout high school. That was really her primary activity, but she was working many hours. She moved up into becoming a manager. So in the summer she worked more and she oh used that to say like all the different things that came with it because not only was she serving ice cream, it was during COVID. So she had to figure out operations.

36:52
How do you get that many people through the door when you’ve got limited capacity? Then it was all throughout high school, so then things opened up. Then she had to train new employees that were starting, so she had to do that. Some of the workers there, that was their primary job. So she saw economic inequity and how do you manage that? And so she ended up going to uh Cornell Hotel School. And I think the question was, what type of a business student are you? And everything that she did in that job,

37:20
she started to see things in so many different ways. She started to see business in a multi-layered way where it wasn’t just making money, but it was serving a community. It was understanding how to manage human resources. was understanding operations. I one time had a student who was, he did a lot of work at a soup kitchen and he was the guy who was serving everybody and kind of deploying the different people that were serving people. So we talked again about operations and how he thinks about it as operations and like, how do you get

37:50
All of these people through the door in a way that makes them feel welcome and you know with dignity. So again, those are all things that you could learn. There’s a lot of ways that you can apply. Non typically business things to business. So lots of ways that you can you can get at business. Yeah, I absolutely agree with that. I mean all of those things demonstrate leadership, strategic thinking, problem solving, all characteristics that.

38:18
undergraduate business programs are looking at. What I will say is that when it comes time to apply to college and you’re gonna say, I’m interested in business, you have to have something to say. I mean, there’s so many different ways Lisa’s point of just getting involved in some kind of organization and taking on additional responsibility that does it um or taking a class. are billions of business podcasts

38:48
that you could binge. Sometimes I would say I get students who, you know, are like, I’m interested in business, I want to apply to business school. And I’m like, okay, what what sparked that business? I don’t know, my parents are in business or, you know, have you done anything? No, no, I don’t know. I think you need to have sort of explored it in some fashion, whether traditional or not in a traditional way, but just some kind of organizational

39:16
leadership experience before, you you have to have something behind it, I think anyway. Right. And if you’re not sure, then that might be a really good way to use your summer is to take one of those pre-college business programs to get exposure to it and understand what goes into various types of business. I mean, there’s so many different pre-college programs that are available for students to take advantage of. So, yeah.

39:41
I’ve had a bunch of kids do sports marketing also. didn’t mention that. Same. I was kids doing sports marketing. And so, yeah, it just gives you exposure so that you understand and make the connection to something personal, which is also really helpful. right. Anything else that we want to talk about before we wrap this up? Start thinking about summer now. This is the time to look at programs that open up. This is the time to

40:10
think about how you want to spend your summer, whether it’s camp, whether it’s a job, whether it’s applying for a certain program at a college. So it’s not too early. It might feel like it is, but it’s not. So you should be having those thoughtful conversations now. That’s a really good point. And also some of the more competitive programs, the application deadline could be January 1st and sometimes even earlier than that.

40:35
uh So that’s also something to just be really mindful of that you’re going to have to use this time right now to write those competitive applications for having that like early January. Sometimes you have to be nominated by a guidance counselor, like if you’re doing like the governor’s school for your state or some of these other competitive programs and those applications sneak up on you. So it’s good to get started with that. As a rule, most of them are probably closer to March.

41:03
but there are definitely somewhere it’s January 1st or even mid December. Yeah, I think some of the competitive like highly effective engineering ones are in December. And like I think you started to touch on this Lisa, they’re very writing intensive. A lot of them require multiple essays. Right, so get your chops out now and start getting in a good position for when you have to write your regular college apps.

41:29
So that’s also definitely something you wanna just get going on right now, which is why we wanted to, even though it seems like Thanksgiving’s not even here yet, it’s time to start thinking about summer. All right, well, thank you, CBMers, for tuning in and thank you for um listening. To catch more episodes of College Bell Mentor, make sure to follow or subscribe on your favorite podcast platform and tell a fellow parent or student about the podcast. To learn more, visit CollegeBoundMentor.com. Until next time, you got this.

The post Making the Most of Summer with Your College Application in Mind – College Bound Mentor Podcast #39 appeared first on College Bound Mentor.

This is Episode #38 and you’ll hear us talk whether you should work with an IEC (Independent Educational Consultant) with Kristina Dooley. Listen to the episode on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, and your other favorite podcast spots – follow and leave a 5-star review if you’re enjoying the show!

• Episode Summary & Player
• Show Notes
• Learn more about the College Bound Mentor podcast
• Transcript

College Bound Mentor Podcast Episode #38: Should You Work with an IEC (Independent Educational Consultant)? With Kristina Dooley

An IEC (Independent Educational Consultant) can be a huge help on your student’s high school & college journey. How do you know whether an IEC is right for you – and what should you look for in an IEC? In this episode, we welcome on Kristina Dooley, a Certified Educational Planner and Founder of Estrela Consulting – a multi-consultant educational consulting firm based in Ohio. In addition to her 18 years of experience as an IEC, Kristina has previously served as a college admission officer, a school-based college counselor, and as a Past President of the Independent Educational Consultants Association (IECA). Here’s a small sample of what you’ll hear in this episode:

• Hear what an IEC actually does
• The dynamic between school counselors & IECs
• Key questions to ask an IEC to find out if they’re the right fit
• The drastic ways the industry has changed in the last 5 years
• And why campus visits are more essential than ever.

Connect with Kristina at EstrelaConsulting.com and on LinkedIn, and Subscribe to College Bound Mentor on your favorite podcast platform and learn more at CollegeBoundMentor.com.

Check out the episode and show notes below for much more detail.

Show Notes

• Should You Work with an IEC (Independent Educational Consultant)? With Kristina Dooley
  • [0:19] Welcome to the College Bound Mentor
  • [1:17] What is an Independent Educational Consultant (IEC) and what do they do?
  • [1:55] Common myths about educational consultants
  • [3:06] How IECs differ from high school counselors
  • [4:48] The counselor’s role when a student also works with an IEC
  • [6:30] Building strong IEC–school counselor relationships
  • [7:23] How associations like NACAC and IECA foster collaboration
  • [10:54] Key questions families should ask when hiring an IEC
  • [12:24] What not to ask – focusing too much on outcomes
  • [15:33] How AI (Artificial Intellligence) is changing college counseling and application review (Common App, AI in education)
  • [18:01] Will short-form video interviews (like InitialView Glimpse) reshape admissions?
  • [22:26] The pros and cons of virtual campus visits (Campus tours)
  • [24:46] The “TikTok effect” on admissions advice – and how to separate facts from hype
  • [28:32] Which families really need an IEC (and which might not)
  • [32:22] What surprised Kristina most as IECA President
  • [34:32] Insights from her NACAC presentation on counselor advisory boards
  • [36:58] Emerging college admissions trends (testing policies, Southern migration, etc.)
  • [41:46] How private equity is reshaping the IEC industry
  • [42:58] Why consultants must now track college financial health (IPEDS, College Scorecard)
  • [46:12] Final reflections – connection, collaboration, and boundaries
  • Theme Song: “Happy Optimistic Americana” by BDKSonic

What is the College Bound Mentor podcast?

Lisa, Abby, and Stefanie know college. They also know students. With over 30 years combined experience mentoring young people, they’ll show you why understanding yourself is the key to finding the right college. Each episode, hear trends, case studies, and interviews with students who have gone through it all – giving you valuable insight to survive the college application process and beyond. Hosted by Lisa Bleich, Abby Power, and Stefanie Forman, Partners of College Bound Mentor.

Transcript

Please note: this transcript is not 100% accurate.

00:00
Hey, CBMers. Welcome back to College Bound Mentor, where we help you survive the college application process and beyond. We’re your co-hosts, Lisa. Abby.

02:43
And on today’s episode, we’re going to chat with Kristina Dooley about how to find an educational consultant and what exactly an educational consultant does. Kristina Dooley is a certified educational planner and founder of Estrela Consulting, a multi-consultant educational consulting firm based in Ohio. In addition to her 18 years of experience as an IEC, Kristina has previously served as both a college admissions officer and as a school-based college counselor. Kristina is the past president of the Independent Educational Consultant Association, IECA.

03:13
and holds membership in NACAC, OACAC, and the International ACAC. So welcome, Kristina. Thanks for having me. I’m excited to be here. Yeah, it’s our pleasure. It’s our pleasure. So why don’t we start off just for those who are listening. may not know. What actually we call it an IEC. What is an IEC? So an independent educational consultant, the way that I explain it to people who look at me kind of funny when I tell them what I do for a living is that

03:43
Essentially, we support students through a variety of different educational searches. Many of us work in the college planning space, so working with students going through the college search and application process, but there are also educational consultants who help with things like independent and boarding school searches, therapeutic program searches, grad school searches, really a lot of different variations. But I’d say the vast majority of educational consultants are working primarily with kids looking at colleges.

04:11
And what do you think are some myths and truths about what an IEC will do, can do, value, et cetera? I would say probably the one that I hear most often is that there’s an assumption that IECs are completing the application pieces for students, that they’re filling in the applications, they’re writing the essays, they’re doing all the things and then handing it over to a student to then turn it in as their own work. And I would say that’s

04:38
That’s probably the greatest myth. the unfortunate piece of it is that there are bad players in our industry that are doing that. The vast majority of us are not and are held to ethics codes by our professional associations that I think we’d follow anyway, even if we weren’t members of those organizations. But unfortunately, there are some people out there not doing great things and doing exactly what people maybe are assuming educational consultants do. um I think the other myth that I

05:07
that I think about often because I worked in a school is a lot of people assume that we fully replace school counselors and that’s just not the case. There’s a lot of things that we don’t do and that are not part of our tasks when we’re working with students that the school counselor really needs to be involved in a part of. So I think those are two major ones. And it’s interesting because a lot of families will ask, usually it’s when they’re at a private school, but even at a public school, what do you do that’s different?

05:36
than the college counselors at our high school? Like we’re paying all this money, why do we need you? What would you tell them? I think that the main piece of it is that if we look at student to counselor ratios in US public schools, especially, not so not, I’ll talk about private schools in a second, but I think in public schools, thinking about just the counselors capacity to really dig deeply into. oh

06:00
individualized lists with students, for example, that may be hard, especially if students are looking at very specific types of majors or programs, that takes a lot of research hours to do that. And then also just even the evaluation process of what the students put together in their applications, the essays, the activity list, if they’re putting together any supplemental essays, all those things, that’s a lot of time for one school counselor, two school counselors to be handling. So I think that’s where, that’s big difference.

06:27
I think in terms of private schools, know we actually have great relationships with a lot of private school counselors. And when they refer students to us, it isn’t so that they can hand them off. It’s actually really so that we can work in tandem with them to put together a really solid school list. And maybe there are schools that they are not familiar with. Even private school counselors don’t necessarily have the time or capacity to visit schools the way that independent educational consultants do, because this is our.

06:54
our only job. not handling things like course scheduling. We’re not handling things like setting up PSAT tests. And so we have some additional time to be able to get out onto campuses and really have a broader sense of what’s available out there. What would you say then, along those lines, is the role of the high school counselor when a student is also working with an IEC?

07:18
That’s a great question. uh I for me, the school counselor is an integral part of the process because not only do they do what we’d say is kind of like the the office functions like sending of of transcripts and uh school profile recommendations and all of those kind of administrative things, but I do think that the school counselor actually can play a significant role in a lot of students processes because.

07:43
They are essentially in the school setting with the students. understand the curriculum within the school. They understand the trajectory that the students been on academically and why that has happened. Sometimes consultants, independent educational consultants start working with students maybe as sophomores or juniors. And so they may not have the full scope of the picture of why was that student placed in that math trajectory as a freshman? And so I think I’ve had

08:09
great conversations with school counselors about some of that back information, which is helpful to me in recommending options to them or even things like if a student has a diagnosed learning difference and they are getting some accommodations in school, the school counselor can help give some context around what does that look like and what do they see in terms of needs for that student going forward. So I do think that’s why it’s so I do think it’s important that IECs start to bridge gaps in relation.

08:36
build relationships with school counselors, especially in their own communities, because we’re all really trying to help the students as a team. And so I try to stress that a lot, maybe I have rose-colored glasses, but I have those relationships with school counselors, and I find it really valuable. And how have you developed them? Because we’re totally open to it, and we love to have that. But sometimes we’re seen as, I don’t know, there’s just sort of this divide between the school counselors and the IECs. And you were a school counselor.

09:05
So I don’t know if that helps a little bit, but what have you done? How have you done that to prove that? That’s a great question. don’t have a secret sauce, but I think the main thing is I’ve gone into my outreach to schools assuming that they’ll look at me as a peer. I try not to go in thinking that they’re gonna think of me as a negative in that process.

09:31
Of course, you’re 100 % correct. I’ve certainly had school counselors that don’t appreciate my involvement with a family. And that is what it is. But what I have found has worked in terms of kind of bridging those or building relationships with school counselors is I have worked really hard to become involved in a lot of the same professional associations that they’re in, like NACAC, for example, or my regional ACAC, which I think is important for them to see you in the same spaces.

10:01
and know that you’re learning in a lot of those same ways that they are. The other way, and this is kind of unique maybe to us, is that we actually have started just a few years ago doing some intentional outreach to school counselors where when we’re offering programming, whether that’s webinars, whether that’s in-person events, we add them to email lists.

10:25
with their permission, we’ll send them information. And they have been actually very grateful for that. When we host a webinar on something like aviation programs or performing arts programs or highly selective admissions, they are thankful, I think, because they don’t have the bandwidth or time to be able to put together programming like that to share with their families. And we very intentionally make those kinds of.

10:49
professional development things or webinars or events. We tried very much to not make them overly promotional for Estrella. Estrella Consulting is the name of my business. We try not to push that on people in those. We really want them to feel more educational. We have also, and it’s interesting the timing of us chatting now because we just held our second, we’re now calling it our second annual because we’ll continue it going on from this year, uh a day long.

11:17
workshop for administrators in local school districts. We did it last year at the request of a local assistant superintendent who said, know, when families are upset about something happening in our school district about college stuff, they call the superintendent’s office or they call the principal. And oftentimes those people don’t really know the landscape of higher ed and don’t really know how to respond to those parents who are upset about something that

11:41
in many cases is actually a non-event. It’s something that they really, yes, they’re upset, but it’s emotional, it’s less fact-based. so this assistant superintendent basically asked us if we could put a workshop on for administrators to really give them an understanding in a succinct way about what does the college process look like in 2025 or 2026? What does that look like? What should be?

12:08
we’d be paying attention to as a district in terms of our educational programming, our um staffing, all of those things, what we’re allowing our school counselors to do. And so we did that last year. It was excellent. We had about 50 people who attended from almost 30 different school districts.

12:23
We had a second, district who asked us to do it in their district this year. We did it again. It was equally fabulous before I arrived home from that event this year. I had an email from another district saying, please bring that to our district. give a new business model there, because they had no idea they doing. That’s awesome. Yeah, but there were many school counselors there too, and that was great. think them seeing us presenting information and us really demonstrating our expertise helped. Maybe if they had some negative feelings about

12:53
independent educational consultants seeing my colleagues and I presenting on topics like financial aid, testing, all those kinds of things. I think it maybe changed some of their perceptions about what we do and just the amount of work that we actually really do put into becoming well-versed professionals in this space. That’s excellent. Yeah. It’s really cool. So um if a family is asking, and we all get these calls, right?

13:21
Families will always say, well, did I miss anything? What else should I ask? So what do you think would be, I don’t want to put you on the spot, but like sort of three to five key questions that you think a family should ask to try to understand if it’s the right fit for them? For me, a very important thing I mentioned, there are people who, a lot of people refer to them as dabblers in our space, know, people that aren’t, that are doing this.

13:49
because maybe they’ve had a child that’s gone through the process and they have suddenly become an expert in college planning. I think it’s really important if you’re vetting an IEC to know their credentials. What are they involved in? Are they part of a professional association that requires them to sign an ethics code annually? I think that’s important. know people, there are some IECs who feel that they don’t need to be affiliated with an organization. And I think that that is a big mistake. I think it’s important and I think families should be asking that kind of thing.

14:17
I think asking things about how are you learning about schools and financial aid and all of those things? How do you stay up on what’s happening in this space? Any different than a parent could be doing? What would make it different than a parent Googling the answers to something or using AI to generate a college list? I think parents should be asking, how are you learning things that I’m not gonna know? ah And I think that’s really important. And there’s a lot of answers to that. We visit campuses and obviously we…

14:46
participating in professional conferences. I don’t know how many webinars we listen to in a year or more podcasts like this. I think oh that’s really important as well. And I think one of the things that is a question that I would, if I may say a question that I actually wish families would not focus on, and that is solely outcomes.

15:09
I wish families wouldn’t say how many of your students have gotten into XYZ University, because that has no bearing on their child. It’s not us getting kids in. That’s the other thing. It kind of makes my skin call and we say, we got them in. Because I don’t get kids in anywhere. They get in a Exactly. They get themselves in with our help. They sort of work and they get. Exactly. I know that’s one of my pet peeves as well. I just had a conversation yesterday.

15:37
Like, what’s your, you know, what’s your mid-grade or what’s your success rate? And I was like, you know what, it’s really just depends on the student. mean, sometimes students are reaching too high, which there’s no, I said, I’m not magical. We can’t like make them something that they’re not, but if someone’s appropriately reaching and you know, then we’re going to help them get into the right fit for them, right?

16:00
So that is a great point about the, you what is your success rate? Cause it varies so much by student and by what the needs of the student and the family is, you know? I just got how many of your kids get into the Ivy leagues. Yeah. Yeah. And yeah. And I think the Ivy leagues aren’t right for the vast majority of kids. So that actually makes sense to us. But I think, and we’ve had kids go to the Ivies, but we don’t lead with that because that’s not, again, it’s not, in fact, for me, oh

16:29
My favorite statistic annually, if you ask our team, what is the thing that I really focus on? It’s typically either one of two things. One, the number of different colleges where our students are accepted and also new colleges to our list. I love when we can say we’ve got 12 colleges that have just been added to our list of schools where students have been admitted that have never been on our list before. And that’s to me indicative of us truly finding fit for kids because it.

16:55
Just because we have this list, it’s not cookie cutter. We don’t have 20 schools that every kid should be applying to. It just doesn’t, it shouldn’t work that way. Of course, you know, depending on where you’re located regionally, you may have flagship schools that everyone is applying to. It’s kind of just a thing, right? But I think when you’re able to identify other schools and, and I just, I get excited about those kinds of opportunities to help kids find schools that are not necessarily those ones that.

17:23
everyone is applying to. Especially when you go visit a school and you’re always thinking like, would this, which of my clients in my list might this, you know, fit? And then maybe it doesn’t even happen until a year or two later where you meet a student, you’re like, my God, this would be there. Like, this is a place for you. And I love when families will say, you know what, you helped me. And in our minds, like we know all these schools, right? So it doesn’t seem like it’s such an unusual school, but like a family will say,

17:52
you know, we went the school, I’d never even heard of it before you. And it was like Wesleyan, you know, it was like, never even heard of the school. was like the perfect fit for my child. And for me, when I met that person, I was like, oh, that’s the school for you. And it was, it didn’t seem like it was such a big stretch because it was just, I kind of have that art and the science of making the match, right? Which I think AI is doing a pretty good job, but I still feel like there’s not that sort of um intuition, I guess. Right. Yep. Inaction. Yeah.

18:22
For sure. um Okay, switching topics a little bit. ah I think this could be its own uh podcast, but how have you seen the industry change in the last five years? My head is being flooded with overwhelmed changes that I’m thinking about now. if you were to say uh the few biggest changes that have really impacted your work, what would you say?

18:52
I think certainly AI has changed a lot of things. I think it will continue to change things. I don’t think we’ve seen even a little snippet of it yet in terms of how it’s going to change our work. And I think there’s people that I think are helping our, especially our industry, learn how to use AI to supplement what we do versus replace it. And also how to teach our students uh ways to use AI.

19:21
to support their processes without feeling like that’s going to be the thing that’s going to guide me 100%, you know, that I’m going to just plug something in and be able to go with it. I think also it’ll change the application review process. know there’s, uh during the workshop we presented recently to school administrators, we talked about, that was the main question that came up from school counselors and administrators is how our college is using AI to review applicants, not,

19:50
how our applicants using it, but how our college is using it. And there aren’t many schools that have come out publicly with how they’re using it. think they’re a little leery of saying how they’re using it, but some have. And I shared an anecdote from the Daily Tar Heel that UNC had. They basically did, they said, this is how we’re using it. We’re using it to evaluate essays at the front end and assign an essay score.

20:16
And there was a screenshot that they shared that a student had gone in to their file and they were able to see how that was used. And I’ve heard of other schools, obviously, that are schools that have hard and fast requirements in terms of like requirements, you four years of English, three years of math, you know, that kind of thing. And having AI kind of do a first pass of the transcripts to make sure those basic things are there. And that makes sense to me with the broad number of applications that are out there. uh

20:40
But I think the other thing that’s changing, and maybe this is an impact of AI, is I actually have said this a couple times recently, that I think we will start to see major shifts in terms of essay work with students and the value of the essay and the process for that reason. But I think many schools and like Glimpse, for example, from initial view has come on the scene in terms of bringing people. uh

21:05
you know, a visual and actual personality to the student. How do you get that without having a 30 minute in-person interview, which colleges just don’t have the capacity to do that anymore. And so these glimpse videos, think, I think they’re onto something with that. I think that that could potentially be some one way that they are, our profession starts changing as we may have to, as IECs, for example, start learning how to help students be able to do their elevator pitch, you know, or do something that’s like a 30, you know, or 60 to

21:35
second to a minute. I feel like that’s hard for a lot of kids to do that. I mean, some kids are natural at doing it, but I think it puts a lot of pressure on kids who aren’t perhaps as strong visually or strong on video. Some kids, it’s like second nature to them, but some kids, it’s a challenge. And I think it is all of these different things. I had heard, and I hadn’t validated this, but someone said that they heard that there was going to be a…

22:00
basically a prompt that would show up on a screen and the kid would have to write their essay right there and then. Have you heard that? I have seen that actually. I had a student applying to a university and she was applying to engineering program. She had to log on at a certain time and the prompts would pop up and it was recorded also. So she was also being recorded. Her keystrokes were being, it was all recorded and they were just short answer prompts.

22:26
They weren’t overly challenging, but very anxiety inducing. will say that she reported back afterwards. uh That was, em oh, of course I’m going to blank on which school it was. I want to say University of Toronto, but I feel like you need to fact check me on that. ah It was an international institution. uh But I will say for her, it was the questions, she said they were not challenging, but again, it was.

22:53
She didn’t know what to expect. There wasn’t much given to her in advance about what those questions would be. They weren’t hard, though. They were very almost, almost if you picture the supplemental 150 word essay, but even slightly shorter, kind of very direct question. And I could see schools doing that. But again, I don’t know. I imagine that that’s just a technology.

23:18
technological evaluation of some sort that’s doing that, not a human necessarily evaluating those. don’t know. I’m not sure how that. Yeah, I don’t know what that’s going to be. They have those in, you know, for medical school, they have like MMI, but it’s more that they put out the prompt and then you have to respond, but you’re doing it. Some of it isn’t writing, but most of it is verbally. So yeah, it’s being for that. So that brings up an issue for people who have learning challenges who aren’t able to it down. so.

23:47
Yeah, and I think a lot of those things, know, when we think about the there’s we think about essays and that’s a challenge for some students. And then you think about verbal things or you think about things like that. think there’s I don’t know if schools will have to have different options for students to choose from, which I think would make sense because students could choose what their comfort level is with different things. But I think that’s definitely that’s going to that. I just can’t imagine a world where five to 10 years from now

24:17
we will have a 650 word common app essay. And that is, it’s hard for me to think that that’s still gonna go away completely. Yeah, I don’t think it’ll, I don’t know if it’ll go away completely, but like I said, I wonder if it will become an option, know, that we’ve got a couple different ways that you can demonstrate something. I mean, you also think about the schools that are asking for students to submit graded papers, you know, there’s so many different things, I guess. And some students,

24:47
You know, I never want to say something that’s like, oh, it’s not fair. like having the same set of standards for every student when it’s, when students are given the ability to be educated differently and express their aptitudes differently in the educational settings that they’re in in high school, and then expecting them all to have the exact same something, I think is a little, I don’t know. I don’t know.

25:14
I don’t know what that’s going to look like. wish I did. wish I could say and it’s is hard and I will actually say and I think you might know this Lisa, but like I have 9th. I have triplets myself that are in 9th grade and I struggle to even think about what their college application is going to look like. You know, I I think it will be very similar to what’s happening now, but I, for example, I mentioned like glimpse videos.

25:36
I already am thinking, oh gosh, what would my kids talk about in a glimpse video? What, they talk about me? So thinking about that kind of thing and how different that is um in terms of the process. think the other thing that’s changed in going back to the question about what’s changed in our profession or industries, I think they’re just the sheer number of people doing this work.

26:05
the access to information. We do a lot of things virtually. One of the things I’ve heard so much lately is, there still value in actually physically going to visit campuses? And I’m just the campus visit junkie. So I feel like, gosh, I wouldn’t want to do this work if I was just learning everything through a screen. I feel like that wouldn’t, for me, work. But I think it’s broadened the number of people that can do this work, maybe.

26:33
because they do have access to things virtually. But I think that if you go, there’s nothing that replaces a campus visit because even if you see it really, even if you watch videos, et cetera, it’s not the same as being on campus and seeing the vibe and he’s dropping on students, talking to students and really just seeing what it feels like on that campus. Because I’ve had such different perceptions of a school until I go visit it. And then I visited and I have a completely different idea of who would

27:03
whom it would serve well and what are the students like and what’s the experience gonna be like? And it changes over time. Like, you you go back to schools and you visit them and they’re like, oh I agree. And it’s a feeling. It’s kind of the same gut you’d get if you’re interviewing for a job. You can’t quite articulate why you feel like it’s a good fit. I’ll never forget when my son showed up on the campus that he ended up attending. He graduated a couple of years ago. It wasn’t even on his list. And he was just on it. You know, we were doing a trip and I was visiting some schools for work.

27:32
And we went to the one that he thought was his number one choice. And he was like, yikes, this doesn’t feel quite right. it wasn’t Lisa was working with him and Lisa the whole time been like, you know, that’s not the school for him. I’m like, I know, but he’s got to figure that out for himself. And then we went to the school that he ended up going to. And before anything happened, before he even saw a person, it was literally nothing like he described. And he was like, this is it. And I was like, what, what, what, what about it? What about it? he was like, can’t, can’t explain it. I feel like I’m home. I’m like, okay. And you know what? He was super right.

28:03
Yeah. Well, I think one of the industries our industry often gets compared to are realtors. And I think it’s a good analogy, actually, because it is like if you just had a, you know, just going on to Zillow and looking at the listing, you know, you’re not seeing the neighborhood, you’re not seeing the cracks in the foundation, you’re not seeing, you know, all those things, but that’s where we can say to them, hey, I’ve been there. You really need to go because here’s what’s, like, here’s what you’re not seeing just through that little snapshot that you’re getting.

28:32
you know, through an online search or something. Yeah. Speaking of, so I feel like there’s a TikTok effect on our industry that takes many, many um forms. um And Lisa, if there’s something specific that you want to hear about TikTok, for me, when I think about it, I think that there are some like faux experts out there giving questionable advice. And then also the kids are seeing kids talk about their essays and

29:02
everything else. um So I think there’s just like this flood of strangely formatted information out there. Lisa, do you, what’s your take on TikTok? What do you want to hear about? Well, I mean, I think it’s the same thing because people, students will, family students will come and say, oh, I heard this on TikTok or what about this? This is what uh so-and-so said on TikTok or even on social media or whatever it is. And that my essay has to be like this. Yeah. that.

29:31
or this is what I’m supposed to do for that. And so it’s hard as an IEC because you’ve worked with the student, you know the student really well, you understand what drives them and there’s a purpose for what they’re telling or showing in their stories. And then all of a sudden it’s like, this particular, whatever it is has said that it should be like this, but they don’t know the person and they don’t know what you’re trying to achieve. So how have you seen that as well?

30:01
No, I agree with everything you’re just saying about all of that. And I mean, full disclosure, I don’t tick or talk. I don’t either. don’t tick or talk either. Yes, it’s not just students, it’s parents too. You know, that’s the thing too. It’s not just the students that we hear that from anymore, it’s parents too. And I think it’s out of control, but it’s almost, it’s almost, you know, if you think

30:31
Who would, and I’m going to be dating myself saying this, but thinking about what I probably all at some point growing up watched shows like Jerry Springer or Maury Povich or like Ricky Lake or one of those talk shows and hear these things on there and sounds right. It sounds like, and so thinking like, how do you know who the experts are? How do you know? Because someone’s giving them a platform to share that. And obviously with TikTok it’s

30:59
anybody can be doing that. uh And so it’s, I do tell my students, actually some of them will share funny ones with me, they’ll tell me about them that they actually they think are funny because they’re so crazy, that it’s unbelievable. And so I’m hoping that that’s turning is that students are seeing things and they’re starting to realize like that sounds a little bit ridiculous or that. um

31:24
essay topics, you know, that really be what I shou you know? And so at least not just going and doing say I’m actually hearing about like and they don’ it on tiktok. I should sa think are embarrassed to ad

31:44
And then I when I dig a little deeper and it’s not even like a parent Facebook group, which I can say, okay, I understand that, but they’re, won’t admit that they’re seeing it on Tic Tac. Yeah. That’s a really good point too. Lisa. Yeah. For chat, they say, I read it somewhere. I read somewhere that, yeah, I have a, I have a kid working on a Dartmouth essay, why Dartmouth? It’s a hundred words. And he’s like,

32:12
I read somewhere where every essay has to have an anecdote. And I was like, well, if you can pull off an anecdote in a hundred and impactful anecdote in a hundred words, you go for it. But read the question carefully. They’re asking why Dartmouth is a good thing. So yeah, but no, everyone has to have an anecdote. I’m like, okay, if you say so chat or chat GPT, exactly. funny. Okay. Let’s see. Are there,

32:39
Are there occasions where you talk to families and you think, you you don’t really need an IEC or, you you meet people and you’re like, oh, you really need an IEC. So what kinds of families need us and what kind of families um don’t need that kind of support in your mind? I think sometimes the families that reach out where, and I mentioned we have great relationships with a lot of our school counselors in the area. So there are times when I, when what they’re telling me is something that

33:09
Maybe the family doesn’t realize that the school will actually be able to support them fully with that, whatever that need is. uh But I would say even in those cases, a lot of times families feel like they need something to supplement that work. So maybe they’re not using us for a full college planning package. And the way that our services are is we have families who can work with us for three, five, 10, 35 hours. So there’s different options that they can engage our services. So some will.

33:38
hire us, for example, for like a three hour package, but it’s really to supplement the really good work that they’re getting or support they’re getting from their school counselor. I also think sometimes if a student’s application process, if they’re applying to all of our, for example, let’s say they’re applying to all of a state’s, uh state schools that don’t have any additional supplements and the schools are accepting 70 % higher of their applicants. You know, I think there’s situations, I think it’s real.

34:07
It’s individual, of course, depending on the student. I think in situations like that where maybe they just need some direction. They don’t necessarily need uh expertise. It’s almost like they need some of the mechanics. They just need you to help them understand what the process pieces are. But then once they hit submit on that first application, they’re ready to go with the rest of them. And they understand what they need to do. But I think with students, if a school is reviewing an essay, I do think that essay work

34:35
even for those schools that have a higher acceptance rate, but they’re looking at the essay, I do think that we can be helpful with that because I tell students often that that main common FSA, we encourage them to repurpose that for scholarship applications or other things. So I do feel like we can still be helpful in that. So I don’t find a lot of families that reach out to us in particular, where I say to them, you don’t need us, but.

35:03
I also were honest with them about how much they need us, if that makes sense. So I don’t oversell them and say, you need to engage us for this full shebang. families that do need us, it’s when they call and they just are, and I say this in a kind way, spewing misinformation, but it’s been fed to them, where it’s like we.

35:25
Again, maybe that’s through social media, maybe it’s chat GPT, maybe it’s the Friday night football games, they’re hearing all this stuff and they come and we realize we got to correct a lot of that information that they’ve just been fed and direct them in the right way so that they are doing things. And maybe that’s in list development. Maybe they are just really, it’s the list that they’ve told us and that’s on our, we have a questionnaire that our client experience manager asks.

35:51
some of these, it’s a template of questions when she does a discovery call. And one of the questions is, know, are you, do you have already schools that you’re looking at? then uh are you, are, are, the student a legacy and the anticipation is that they’re going to apply to those schools? You know, cause some of that information is very helpful for us to understand their mindset and also the beginnings of what their expectations are for us and whether or not we want to work with them. Because that’s the other thing I tell IECs all the time. You don’t, you don’t have to,

36:20
take on a family. Yeah, that’s a choice. so, yeah, so we’re really specific about, do have families that we will refer out to other consultants or, you know, to the IUCA directory because we’re not the right fit for them. Right. And I think that’s true. It is very much like, you know, finding a college, finding a college consultant, it’s the chemistry and you have to make sure you get up there. What surprised you, I’m going to switch gears a little bit, but what surprised you in your role as the president of IUCA? And for those of, uh

36:49
for our listeners who don’t know, that’s the Independent Educational Consultant Association, which is an association of IECs across the board. So what surprised you in that role? I think what surprised me was, and my presidency was during the pandemic, so I was, a lot of surprises there, but I would say, and I don’t know why this was surprising to me because I know lots of IECs.

37:17
But I was actually really surprised and em infused with excitement about our profession by the way that people supported one another in our profession and continued to do that. Because I felt like, especially during that time, there was just so much shenanigans going on that it was, you know, everyone really needed people, especially those who were independent, truly independent solo practitioners. uh

37:46
needed people and I found that the support network was incredible and also for me, I would say the I felt so supported as president of IECA. I still do to this day. I still have people who are so kind, know, and want to help me as an IEC, but also in my role as a leader in the association. And I never I tell people all the time, the members and the

38:12
committee chairs and the affinity group leaders, the board members, the staff, they all made me look really good. I mean, I was the president, but there was a whole lot of people that were doing great things. And again, there were people I met that I didn’t know. And so was just, it was great to be able to do that, but that support, even how strong the regional groups were, I knew my own regional group, but some of our regional groups in IECA, I mean, they are incredible just in terms of the support network that they provide to one another.

38:42
And that really was, I think, something that was a surprise to me because I didn’t realize how much that was happening in our association. Yeah, we are a very supportive group. guess it’s because we’re all in this profession to help other people. So we like to help each other. I think it’s really nice. So you recently presented at NACAC. What did you present on? Yeah, I presented on creating effective counselor advisory boards.

39:10
And the impetus for that was I’ve served on several counselor advisory boards over the years, which essentially for those who aren’t familiar is counselor advisory boards are groups of school counselors, IECs, CBO representatives, college-bound organizations uh that basically serve to advise admission offices and on things that they should or shouldn’t be doing in terms of recruitment and visits and those kinds of things. And so I’ve been on several over the years and

39:39
have found that they really vary in terms of the, I would say the value that they’re providing to both the institution and to the people participating because everybody is a volunteer. And so I thought it would be helpful to share. We had a panel of people sharing both as a participant and then we had some folks from the college side who shared what they’re doing with their counselor advisory boards and giving advice, everything from.

40:05
How do you choose members? What do you talk about or what do you task people to do when they’re part of that? To even some of the things we even talked about, some of the legal considerations, ethical considerations of having people on a counselor advisory board. And it was great. We was really well attended. In fact, just this morning, I have an email in my inbox from the Ohio Association for College Admission Counseling asking us if we’ll repeat it at the OACAC conference in the spring because it was really well received.

40:33
Well, that’s awesome. Well, good. Well, it seems like you are creating your kind of all of your curriculum to just go across the nation and present. You know, I’m going to take that at least. I didn’t know. But I do all these, you know, a lot of these things are self-serving. It sounds, know, like I, yes, of course it’s great. I love putting together stuff like that to help my peers and colleagues.

40:57
But a lot of the stuff like that, or if I host a webinar or I do something like that, a lot of the times it’s because I want things to be great for me and my colleagues too. If I want to serve on a counselor advisory board and I want it to be useful and I want it to be helpful to them. And so I think, OK, how can we make everyone’s be good? And same thing with this workshop I mentioned earlier with the school counselors and the administrators. want those relationships. I want to be welcomed by my school side peers and all of that.

41:27
Yeah. Okay. Well, given that you’re, you have such a nice broad view of the industry in terms of clients and administrators. uh Can you tell us what are the trends in college admissions that you’re expecting to see? Cause we’re just getting started on hearing about admissions for this year, but what are the trends that you’re expecting to see this year that are different from what we saw last year? So changes.

41:56
Well, I think some of the testing things, think, you know, this right now we’re seeing kind of a slow startup, a boulder starting to roll with schools going back to requiring test scores. And I’m in Ohio, so the Ohio State University is requiring scores for students again starting next year. That’s a big change in my world and truthfully was somewhat unexpected in terms of timing in our space. I don’t know that people thought that they’d always remain test optional, but

42:25
But I think the timing was fairly abrupt, I think, for a lot of people. So I think we’ll see some more of that. again, we’ve just seen some of that in the last couple of weeks. And that’ll change things. I think for us, the biggest change, and this started to happen last year, is this southern migration, the number of students in the Northeast, the Midwest, that are just wanting to all go South. And I don’t know if you guys are seeing that too.

42:55
It’s crazy the schools in the South that used to feel really accessible for kids from Ohio or from other places up here in the Midwest uh that even kids who getting into Ohio State was a challenge and they could get into some of those Southern big SCC schools, for example, and it’s just not the case. They’re just much more selective and that’s going to continue, I think very much. And so, you we saw it with schools like Clemson.

43:22
Obviously some of those other schools like Georgia, some of them already been a little bit selective Tennessee, but I hope.

43:30
There’s a couple of schools I even hate. hesitate to even name them because I don’t want people to. You’ll tell us later. No, the reason I’m hesitant to mention them is because I don’t want students applying to them because those are the schools that have been so wonderful, not just for acceptance, but really generous with merit money and attracting some of our students from here. have students who attend, and I will actually name two of them.

43:55
Alabama and Kentucky, we’ve had students go and especially they get into the honors program, know, or something, those experiences for them are phenomenal. I have kids graduating from those schools who say, oh my gosh, I wouldn’t have changed that for the world, but I did not know that that was even a play. I did not know that. So they’re grateful. Again, that’s where I think the value of an IEC is sometimes students and parents have a view of.

44:20
of what they know those schools. They’ve heard, you they see them on Saturday football games, you know, but they don’t know necessarily some of the guts in terms of the academic potential that’s there. And that’s where I feel like we can really provide that to them. So again, I think that’s probably the like most glaring trend that we’re seeing right now is, oh gosh, what’s happening there? And we’ve got lots of great public institutions, but we’ve seen a lot of kids looking outside of the state.

44:48
Yeah, I was going to say Miami, Ohio. That’s that’s one that I think with kids from the East Coast, that’s always a sort of the southern equivalent. It definitely is. And it’s not the hard thing for us with families from this area is having them understand that some of those schools that were there, you know, I just fill out the paper and I’m in kind of places when they were a plaque when I was growing up here. It’s just not the case. We just even

45:17
We’ve been saying this for, I would say at least probably the last eight years about Ohio State as an example, about Miami certainly is one of them. um Cincinnati is getting very popular day. We’ve got, yeah, we have a lot of the schools here that are popular with students from the Northeast and obviously a lot of our private colleges like Denison, Kenyon, Oberlin, Case Western, know, we’ve got, Ohio is a great place. can’t It’s a great place. I remember I did a tour of Ohio schools and I really enjoyed that.

45:45
Well, it’s interesting because from, I’m in New Jersey and Abby’s down in Michigan, a lot of kids from New Jersey will go to Ohio State, because that was a school that you could still get into. Like there was an interest of non-Ohians, but New Jerseyans are good. So it is interesting. We just did a trends webinar and we had the same trends that we saw about the push to the Southern and also testing coming back. And the other thing that’s interesting about the testing is that,

46:10
Like we used to have a blanket thing like, okay, you’ve got to send your SAT or ACT scores like three to four weeks before you apply. And then during COVID, we kind of changed the language on that. And I feel like now we have to bring that back because now there are more schools that are requiring official test scores. And so it’s just easier to just be like, just send them out so that you don’t get caught up with not having those tests for a cent. So think that’s good. I don’t know if you have a pulse on this, but how much do you think private equity is impacting our industry?

46:40
I don’t have a great pulse on it. I think the impact of private equity is that this industry that has felt very Main Street to me, like Main Street shops of, walk in and people know you. That’s what I picture of what our industry was when I start. And I think private equity has the potential to change it, to make it feel much more corporate. I see some of my peer companies

47:10
that are being scooped up. And I don’t know. I don’t really have a pulse on it, but if I had to anticipate, that’s kind of the feeling that I have is that it will change that feel of things. Is that a good or bad? I don’t know. mean, certainly there’s an infusion of money to help support and grow and all those things could be helpful, but yeah, I’m not so sure. Yeah, I’m interested to see how it impacts it. So is there any last things or anything else that you want our listeners to know?

47:40
Mm.

47:43
can’t think of any, you guys asked so many great questions. This was very good. No, it was like very, like a lot of topics rolled into one. No, I think you hit so many great things. The only thing I’d say that I think is a hot topic area right now in our space, in IEC space that I have seen change since I started is the need for IECs to be

48:13
more financially adept, like to know what is happening in the financial landscape, but also even things like my colleague at Astrilla just presented to some IECs on financial health of institutions and how do you assess that? I mean, who would have thought that that was something we didn’t have to worry about, but in reality, I know just even in my region, the schools that have been closing or emerging as

48:40
I feel like we have to pay attention to that when IECs are traditionally, not everyone, but many IECs are known to look at some of those smaller private institutions because they’re awesome. And I went to a small private institution. But I think we need to be aware of what’s happening because we don’t want to refer kids somewhere that they have a…

49:08
likelihood of staying open for a year or two, you know, and so I hate that we’re in that situation, but I think that that is an area that is the financial piece. I financial aid and affordability, I think has been you either love it or it’s a pain in your side when you’re in this work.

49:25
In full disclosure that it’s a pain in my side. You know, it’s not an area I’ve ever really loved, but I have this great colleague who loves it. And so we’re a great team in that respect. But but I think it’s a necessarily evil. We have to be paying attention to costs and helping families understand the implications of cost, which I don’t think again, a lot of IECs almost when I started working as my IEC almost 20 years ago, that wasn’t something we weren’t.

49:50
sending net price calculators to people, know, or SAI calculators. We weren’t doing that kind of thing necessarily on the regular. And that is something we are doing all the time in our work now. So I think that’s a major, major change in our industry. Right. And it’s interesting that you said it, because I remember one time I did a survey among my clients and I was like, and I hadn’t really been doing financial aid. This was a while ago. This was probably 15 years ago.

50:16
And that was the one thing that people said, we need to have more information about that. I was like, oh, yes, that absolutely has to be something that we talk about. And I agree with you. is not even, there’s the smaller institutions that are closing or merging or getting acquired or being gifted to schools just out in Lake Tahoe over the summer. And Sierra Nevada, which is a very small college right in Northern Lake Tahoe and Incline Village, was actually gifted to University of Nevada, Reno.

50:45
And so it’s kind of this satellite campus and they’re adding nursing there. And they’re also doing these like Saturdays away or weekends away in Tahoe, which is kind of a cool thing that you wouldn’t see. But on the other side of it, even like the larger, you know, well established like Brown and Hopkins and schools are laying off tons of people. Purdue is, mean, Purdue, there’s a huge, they just got rid of all of their honors faculty.

51:11
So there’s a lot of things that are going on and it is hard to keep track of all of those. So I think that’s a really good point to be aware of that. So, well, thank you CBMers for tuning in and thank you, Kristina, for an amazing episode. It was so great to talk to you. To catch more episodes of College Bound Mentor, make sure to follow or subscribe on your favorite podcasts and tell a fellow parent or student about the podcast. And if you like what you heard, please rate our podcast to boost our rankings so that more people can find us. To learn more, visit CollegeBoundMentor.com. Until next time, you got this!

The post Should You Work with an IEC (Independent Educational Consultant)? With Kristina Dooley – College Bound Mentor Podcast #38 appeared first on College Bound Mentor.