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	<title>Comments for Box Turtle Bulletin</title>
	
	<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com</link>
	<description>News, analysis and fact-checking of anti-gay rhetoric</description>
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		<title>Comment on Mormon/Boy Scout sexual abuse problem by Timothy Kincaid</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2010/03/19/21325/comment-page-1#comment-64935</link>
		<dc:creator>Timothy Kincaid</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Mar 2010 22:33:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=21325#comment-64935</guid>
		<description>Soren456

Whatever conclusions you have come to, you are mistaken.

Orientation is a measurement of direction (hence the name).  Think of it as a sort of compass, if you will.  It points either at males, at females, at a point between, or away from both.  A male pointed at "male" is gay.

It doesn't point at "tall" or "Hispanic" or "Miss Kitty dressed up in latex" though these may be things that appeal to some.  And it doesn't point at "nine years old".

You may claim that these are just arbitrary definitions and that it could point to male, female, and pre-pubescent child, if it wished.  Sure, it could also point to jello.

But there is a difference between men and jello.  Interestingly, it is also the difference between men and children.

An orientation the gender to which one gravitates to establish a joining of two, a connection of souls.  Sex is but a manifestation of this gravitation.  And even casual or meaningless sex is a reflection of the emotional attraction that underlies falling in love.

Without the possibility of joining of souls - something that simply cannot occur with immature and undeveloped children - then there is no connection, only unequal power.  And, in fact, it is this inequality, this power disunity that appeals to pedophiles.  In that sense, pedophilia is very nearly the opposite of an orientation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Soren456</p>
<p>Whatever conclusions you have come to, you are mistaken.</p>
<p>Orientation is a measurement of direction (hence the name).  Think of it as a sort of compass, if you will.  It points either at males, at females, at a point between, or away from both.  A male pointed at &#8220;male&#8221; is gay.</p>
<p>It doesn&#8217;t point at &#8220;tall&#8221; or &#8220;Hispanic&#8221; or &#8220;Miss Kitty dressed up in latex&#8221; though these may be things that appeal to some.  And it doesn&#8217;t point at &#8220;nine years old&#8221;.</p>
<p>You may claim that these are just arbitrary definitions and that it could point to male, female, and pre-pubescent child, if it wished.  Sure, it could also point to jello.</p>
<p>But there is a difference between men and jello.  Interestingly, it is also the difference between men and children.</p>
<p>An orientation the gender to which one gravitates to establish a joining of two, a connection of souls.  Sex is but a manifestation of this gravitation.  And even casual or meaningless sex is a reflection of the emotional attraction that underlies falling in love.</p>
<p>Without the possibility of joining of souls &#8211; something that simply cannot occur with immature and undeveloped children &#8211; then there is no connection, only unequal power.  And, in fact, it is this inequality, this power disunity that appeals to pedophiles.  In that sense, pedophilia is very nearly the opposite of an orientation.</p>

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		<title>Comment on “Not Guilty, Not Ashamed, and Not Finished” by Ben Mathis</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2010/03/19/21316/comment-page-1#comment-64934</link>
		<dc:creator>Ben Mathis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Mar 2010 22:28:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=21316#comment-64934</guid>
		<description>So John, how do you feel about the literal brigade of right wing conservative generals that comment on policies, court cases, etc, while in uniform. how about just this week General Jack Sheehan's comment about the dutch having gay servicemembers?  Seems it's only when grunts want to say something that it's not alright, and even then only when it's not a republican talking point. Soldiers are involved in politics all day long and no one says a word till it's about gay rights.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So John, how do you feel about the literal brigade of right wing conservative generals that comment on policies, court cases, etc, while in uniform. how about just this week General Jack Sheehan&#8217;s comment about the dutch having gay servicemembers?  Seems it&#8217;s only when grunts want to say something that it&#8217;s not alright, and even then only when it&#8217;s not a republican talking point. Soldiers are involved in politics all day long and no one says a word till it&#8217;s about gay rights.</p>

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		<title>Comment on Mormon/Boy Scout sexual abuse problem by Soren456</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2010/03/19/21325/comment-page-1#comment-64933</link>
		<dc:creator>Soren456</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Mar 2010 22:20:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=21325#comment-64933</guid>
		<description>@Emily K:

". . . the aligning of romantic and sexual attraction between pubescent adults . . ."

No one but a "pubescent adult" can have an orientation?

My mother says that she knew I was gay when I was in the first grade. She says I was always getting crushes on other boys.

And she is right. When I look back on it, I was frequently enamored of another kid, fascinated by him, talking about him, missing him, frustrated that he didn't think the same way about me. This at the very start of my school career, and very distinctly outside every cultural clue, advertisement and billboard relentlessly in my face.

I know enough always to avoid always and never to say never, so when I see that there are "only 4 orientations," I tend to respond, "Sez who?"

Thanks for your response. Please expand.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Emily K:</p>
<p>&#8220;. . . the aligning of romantic and sexual attraction between pubescent adults . . .&#8221;</p>
<p>No one but a &#8220;pubescent adult&#8221; can have an orientation?</p>
<p>My mother says that she knew I was gay when I was in the first grade. She says I was always getting crushes on other boys.</p>
<p>And she is right. When I look back on it, I was frequently enamored of another kid, fascinated by him, talking about him, missing him, frustrated that he didn&#8217;t think the same way about me. This at the very start of my school career, and very distinctly outside every cultural clue, advertisement and billboard relentlessly in my face.</p>
<p>I know enough always to avoid always and never to say never, so when I see that there are &#8220;only 4 orientations,&#8221; I tend to respond, &#8220;Sez who?&#8221;</p>
<p>Thanks for your response. Please expand.</p>

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		<title>Comment on New Hampsure results silence NOM’s Maggie Gallagher by John</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2010/03/20/21329/comment-page-1#comment-64932</link>
		<dc:creator>John</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Mar 2010 22:11:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=21329#comment-64932</guid>
		<description>May NOM continue having such "victories"...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>May NOM continue having such &#8220;victories&#8221;&#8230;</p>

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		<title>Comment on Mormon/Boy Scout sexual abuse problem by Ben in Oakland</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2010/03/19/21325/comment-page-1#comment-64931</link>
		<dc:creator>Ben in Oakland</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Mar 2010 21:38:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=21325#comment-64931</guid>
		<description>Soren-- if i have time later, I will write on this issue for you. I haven't danced around this issue, and I actually agree with you, though my agreement (pace, Emily) may not be supported by mainstream organizations.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Soren&#8211; if i have time later, I will write on this issue for you. I haven&#8217;t danced around this issue, and I actually agree with you, though my agreement (pace, Emily) may not be supported by mainstream organizations.</p>

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		<title>Comment on New Hampsure results silence NOM’s Maggie Gallagher by Scott</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2010/03/20/21329/comment-page-1#comment-64930</link>
		<dc:creator>Scott</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Mar 2010 21:33:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=21329#comment-64930</guid>
		<description>Just wait...she is working on the explanation for how the marriage equality folks silenced the views of the traditional marriage crowd. If public opinion doesn't go her way, she goes off on how she and her ilk are victims.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just wait&#8230;she is working on the explanation for how the marriage equality folks silenced the views of the traditional marriage crowd. If public opinion doesn&#8217;t go her way, she goes off on how she and her ilk are victims.</p>

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		<title>Comment on Anti-Gay Group Sells Snakeoil by Jim Burroway</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2010/03/19/21298/comment-page-1#comment-64929</link>
		<dc:creator>Jim Burroway</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Mar 2010 21:17:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=21298#comment-64929</guid>
		<description>Richard, Ben... 

Per our &lt;a href="http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/About/NoCrawl/CommentPolicy.htm" rel="nofollow"&gt;Comments Policy&lt;/a&gt;, please don't engage in idle speculation. If you have a source, we'd all love to hear it. Otherwise passing on unsubstantiated rumors is not only inappropriate, but against our policy. Further comments along these lines without substantiation will be removed.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Richard, Ben&#8230; </p>
<p>Per our <a href="http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/About/NoCrawl/CommentPolicy.htm" rel="nofollow" class="articleLink">Comments Policy</a>, please don&#8217;t engage in idle speculation. If you have a source, we&#8217;d all love to hear it. Otherwise passing on unsubstantiated rumors is not only inappropriate, but against our policy. Further comments along these lines without substantiation will be removed.</p>

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		<title>Comment on New Hampsure results silence NOM’s Maggie Gallagher by Lindoro Almaviva</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2010/03/20/21329/comment-page-1#comment-64928</link>
		<dc:creator>Lindoro Almaviva</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Mar 2010 21:14:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=21329#comment-64928</guid>
		<description>And i bet she will not like it when she sees it here. I wonder what kind of spin she will come up to counter these very clear numbers.

Reminds me of a Schubert song: Gretchen am Spinnrade. If you are curious, here is some info, tell me this is not appropriate, it feels like the soundtrack of her life:

&lt;a href="http://www.recmusic.org/lieder/get_text.html?TextId=17757" rel="nofollow"&gt;Translation&lt;/a&gt;

&lt;a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSneYMidY-k" rel="nofollow"&gt;Performance&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And i bet she will not like it when she sees it here. I wonder what kind of spin she will come up to counter these very clear numbers.</p>
<p>Reminds me of a Schubert song: Gretchen am Spinnrade. If you are curious, here is some info, tell me this is not appropriate, it feels like the soundtrack of her life:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.recmusic.org/lieder/get_text.html?TextId=17757" rel="nofollow">Translation</a></p>
<p><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSneYMidY-k" rel="nofollow">Performance</a></p>

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		<title>Comment on New Hampsure results silence NOM’s Maggie Gallagher by Elizabeth Casswell</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2010/03/20/21329/comment-page-1#comment-64927</link>
		<dc:creator>Elizabeth Casswell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Mar 2010 21:13:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=21329#comment-64927</guid>
		<description>Fantastic article!  Thank you, I love it when I read something that makes me more informed.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Fantastic article!  Thank you, I love it when I read something that makes me more informed.</p>

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		<title>Comment on Ex-Gay Ministry Admits Sexual Abuse; Grateful At Not Being Found Out by Tim</title>
		<link>http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2010/03/19/21288/comment-page-1#comment-64926</link>
		<dc:creator>Tim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Mar 2010 21:10:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/?p=21288#comment-64926</guid>
		<description>@ Clark:

"Letters of apology were written to victims &amp; their families"

Well, that puts things in an entirely new light.  I didn't know that they actually wrote letters AND expended 42 cents on a stamp.  So much better than an actual meeting and a long-term commitment to helping them heal from the abuse.  Certainly Jesus would have gone with written letters over all of that touchy feeling stuff.  I only hope that the apologies were accompanied by Christ-like disclaimers of liability.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@ Clark:</p>
<p>&#8220;Letters of apology were written to victims &amp; their families&#8221;</p>
<p>Well, that puts things in an entirely new light.  I didn&#8217;t know that they actually wrote letters AND expended 42 cents on a stamp.  So much better than an actual meeting and a long-term commitment to helping them heal from the abuse.  Certainly Jesus would have gone with written letters over all of that touchy feeling stuff.  I only hope that the apologies were accompanied by Christ-like disclaimers of liability.</p>

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