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	<title>Comments for Mickey Chandler's Spamtacular</title>
	
	<link>http://www.spamtacular.com</link>
	<description>Where Email, Delivery, and Law come together</description>
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		<title>Comment on Use Private Domain Registration and Go to Jail? by Private Registration</title>
		<link>http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/CommentsForSpamtacular/~3/LaqdxJ8vUFQ/</link>
		<dc:creator>Private Registration</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Aug 2010 22:59:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.spamtacular.com/?p=1033#comment-1584</guid>
		<description>Just because you use a private registration service does not make you a spammer. Lots of people just want to protect themselves from the risks of leaving your personal information on show. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just because you use a private registration service does not make you a spammer. Lots of people just want to protect themselves from the risks of leaving your personal information on show.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Answering @drdigipol by Tweets that mention Mickey Chandler's Spamtacular | Answering @drdigipol -- Topsy.com</title>
		<link>http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/CommentsForSpamtacular/~3/2guUuSONqt4/</link>
		<dc:creator>Tweets that mention Mickey Chandler's Spamtacular | Answering @drdigipol -- Topsy.com</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Jul 2010 18:49:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.spamtacular.com/?p=1878#comment-1568</guid>
		<description>[...] This post was mentioned on Twitter by Donald Schmidt, Mickey Chandler. Mickey Chandler said: Blog post: Answering @drdigipol http://bit.ly/dpAMIa [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] This post was mentioned on Twitter by Donald Schmidt, Mickey Chandler. Mickey Chandler said: Blog post: Answering @drdigipol <a href="http://bit.ly/dpAMIa" rel="nofollow">http://bit.ly/dpAMIa</a> [...]</p>
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		<title>Comment on Inertia is not email marketing by Scott Hardigree</title>
		<link>http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/CommentsForSpamtacular/~3/osxwxAMfAiM/</link>
		<dc:creator>Scott Hardigree</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Jul 2010 16:21:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.spamtacular.com/?p=1735#comment-1567</guid>
		<description>Hi Mickey – Your arguments are on point, but Alchemy Worx has raised some interesting questions here too. It seems to me that you guys are looking at the inactive hygiene issue from two different perspectives; one as a marketer and the other as a deliverability guru.  
 
Even through the most robust testing, we’ll never be able to identify every inactively scenario or motivation, or for that matter remedy it. We can only make smarter assumptions. Right? But I can say, with absolute certainty, that it is blanket assumptions that keep many email programs from reaching their full potential, whether that’s due to impaired deliverability or impaired sales. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Mickey &ndash; Your arguments are on point, but Alchemy Worx has raised some interesting questions here too. It seems to me that you guys are looking at the inactive hygiene issue from two different perspectives; one as a marketer and the other as a deliverability guru.  </p>
<p>Even through the most robust testing, we&rsquo;ll never be able to identify every inactively scenario or motivation, or for that matter remedy it. We can only make smarter assumptions. Right? But I can say, with absolute certainty, that it is blanket assumptions that keep many email programs from reaching their full potential, whether that&rsquo;s due to impaired deliverability or impaired sales.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Answering @drdigipol by Laura</title>
		<link>http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/CommentsForSpamtacular/~3/3joMTzsDp4o/</link>
		<dc:creator>Laura</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Jul 2010 15:51:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.spamtacular.com/?p=1878#comment-1566</guid>
		<description>The issue isn't the speech, the issue is the behaviour. If the protected speech conformed with the behaviour standards then it wouldn't be blocked. If advocacy and political groups behaved in a socially acceptable manner then their mail would get to the inbox.  
 
When mailers say "I just want to tell as many people as I can about my great idea" that is spam. Sending mail people didn't ask for and don't want is poor social behaviour on the internet. Adding someone to an advocacy list because they signed a petition is poor practice, generates complaints and causes blocking. Not just at NJABL, but at ISPs that actually listen to their users and let recipient feedback drive filtering decisions.  
 
I also think that the people who make blocking decisions for large organizations understand a lot more about what choices they are making than you give them credit for. Sure, there are people running small mailservers that will use any blocklist without understanding what they're doing. But when you're talking large organizations they actually measure performance. One of those measures is: how much mail are we blocking that our users want. If the recipients don't tell the ISP your mail is wanted (either by complaining to their ISP that they're not getting mail they asked for or moving mail out of their spam/bulk folder) then the ISP is going to rightly treat that mail as unwanted.  
 
Again, the issue is not the speech. The blocks are not done because of what you are saying. The blocks are based on behaviour. If advocacy groups act like spammers, then they'll be treated like spammers. If they stop spamming and start sending mail to people who want it, then the blocking issues go away.  </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The issue isn&#039;t the speech, the issue is the behaviour. If the protected speech conformed with the behaviour standards then it wouldn&#039;t be blocked. If advocacy and political groups behaved in a socially acceptable manner then their mail would get to the inbox.  </p>
<p>When mailers say &quot;I just want to tell as many people as I can about my great idea&quot; that is spam. Sending mail people didn&#039;t ask for and don&#039;t want is poor social behaviour on the internet. Adding someone to an advocacy list because they signed a petition is poor practice, generates complaints and causes blocking. Not just at NJABL, but at ISPs that actually listen to their users and let recipient feedback drive filtering decisions.  </p>
<p>I also think that the people who make blocking decisions for large organizations understand a lot more about what choices they are making than you give them credit for. Sure, there are people running small mailservers that will use any blocklist without understanding what they&#039;re doing. But when you&#039;re talking large organizations they actually measure performance. One of those measures is: how much mail are we blocking that our users want. If the recipients don&#039;t tell the ISP your mail is wanted (either by complaining to their ISP that they&#039;re not getting mail they asked for or moving mail out of their spam/bulk folder) then the ISP is going to rightly treat that mail as unwanted.  </p>
<p>Again, the issue is not the speech. The blocks are not done because of what you are saying. The blocks are based on behaviour. If advocacy groups act like spammers, then they&#039;ll be treated like spammers. If they stop spamming and start sending mail to people who want it, then the blocking issues go away.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Answering @drdigipol by Al Iverson</title>
		<link>http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/CommentsForSpamtacular/~3/YtiqmpqitCc/</link>
		<dc:creator>Al Iverson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Jul 2010 15:51:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.spamtacular.com/?p=1878#comment-1565</guid>
		<description>NJABL doesn't blacklist _anyone_ "for not doing double opt-in." You have to hit spamtraps or otherwise cause a problem to get listed. I work for a large email service provider with many clients both commercial and political, and it is clear to me that the key is best practice guidance and rules applied across ALL senders. Your comments imply that an advocacy group sends a special class of bulk mail and should be treated differently. I disagree strongly; it's either spam or not spam. Those are the two classes that spam filters define, and I think that's the better way to do it. 
 
Nobody's "rights are being compromised" over a spamblock implemented by a private entity. Never, ever. BY DEFINITION, this cannot happen. It's not possible. That's not how Constitutional rights apply in this scenario. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>NJABL doesn&#039;t blacklist _anyone_ &quot;for not doing double opt-in.&quot; You have to hit spamtraps or otherwise cause a problem to get listed. I work for a large email service provider with many clients both commercial and political, and it is clear to me that the key is best practice guidance and rules applied across ALL senders. Your comments imply that an advocacy group sends a special class of bulk mail and should be treated differently. I disagree strongly; it&#039;s either spam or not spam. Those are the two classes that spam filters define, and I think that&#039;s the better way to do it. </p>
<p>Nobody&#039;s &quot;rights are being compromised&quot; over a spamblock implemented by a private entity. Never, ever. BY DEFINITION, this cannot happen. It&#039;s not possible. That&#039;s not how Constitutional rights apply in this scenario.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Answering @drdigipol by Steve</title>
		<link>http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/CommentsForSpamtacular/~3/-4QnAQl56DU/</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Jul 2010 15:44:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.spamtacular.com/?p=1878#comment-1564</guid>
		<description>Given that commercial mailers sending non-protected speech to people who want to receive it have few problems delivering to 99%+ of their recipients mailboxes I have to wonder just how badly run Alan's mail campaign is, or how many dirty email address lists he's purchased, for him to be seeing a level of delivery problems that he's this concerned about it. 
 
A lot of political and advocacy email campaigns feel that they don't need to behave ethically, and don't need to care about whether their recipients want to receive their email and instead fall back on "it's protected speech". That didn't work for sound trucks and noise control statutes, and it's not going to work for spam. 
 </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Given that commercial mailers sending non-protected speech to people who want to receive it have few problems delivering to 99%+ of their recipients mailboxes I have to wonder just how badly run Alan&#039;s mail campaign is, or how many dirty email address lists he&#039;s purchased, for him to be seeing a level of delivery problems that he&#039;s this concerned about it. </p>
<p>A lot of political and advocacy email campaigns feel that they don&#039;t need to behave ethically, and don&#039;t need to care about whether their recipients want to receive their email and instead fall back on &quot;it&#039;s protected speech&quot;. That didn&#039;t work for sound trucks and noise control statutes, and it&#039;s not going to work for spam.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Answering @drdigipol by Alan Rosenblatt</title>
		<link>http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/CommentsForSpamtacular/~3/Dp2nwm1d0tM/</link>
		<dc:creator>Alan Rosenblatt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Jul 2010 15:32:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.spamtacular.com/?p=1878#comment-1563</guid>
		<description>Thanks much for taking the time to lay out all these details. I think the first thing that is clear is that this may be one issue that is difficult to express on Twitter (I am normally a huge advocate that 140 characters is not a prohibitive barrier to discussing complex issues, but this one challenged me). 
 
A little background: Much of the email advocacy groups send deal with educating and mobilizing people with respect to policy issues before Congress and other government bodies. These emails are fundamentally "political speech" as referred to in the 1st Amendment. This is why government ban and restrictions on SPAM do not apply to such communications. They are protected free speech. 
 
That said, no advocacy organization wants to the be the judicial test case for such a claim. For that reason, and out of respect for people on their email lists, advocacy groups (with few exceptions), comply with the CAN-SPAM. Advocacy Groups rely on opt-in, provide a physical address, and an easy unsubscribe link. 
 
The instigation for my initial tweet was that I learned NJABL.org was blacklisting organizations that did not use a double opt-in process.  
 
An important way most advocacy organizations grow their lists is by running advocacy campaigns where taking the action also signs you up for their email list. As a rule, this sign up process is fully disclosed on the action form. There are several advocacy campaign services that work this way, including Salsa, Capwiz, and Convio. 
 
The other side of the equation is that organizations and ISPs that use blackisting services don't always fully appreciate who is being blacklisted. Indeed, some blacklisting services include other blacklisting services filters within their own, making it even harder to understand who is being blackisted and way. 
 
While I fully appreciate that private companies can blacklist anyone they want, it strikes me as problematic on a practical, if not ethical level, to blacklist groups exercise protected political speech in such a blanket way. 
 
I am not advocating banning the practice of blacklisting such groups, but rather suggesting it is important for people to better understand what is being blacklisted and why. If people have the right to freely express political views and those views are being blocked in a way that is obscured by the layering of blacklists or the difficulty in understanding who is blacklisted, that raises concerns in my mind. 
 
In the end, I am all for ensuring that email is protected from abusers. I just don;'t want to see that net cast too broadly such that it compromises our rights. 
 
I hope this helps to clarify things. 
 
And again, many thanks to you, Al, and Mark for taking the time to discuss this with me. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks much for taking the time to lay out all these details. I think the first thing that is clear is that this may be one issue that is difficult to express on Twitter (I am normally a huge advocate that 140 characters is not a prohibitive barrier to discussing complex issues, but this one challenged me). </p>
<p>A little background: Much of the email advocacy groups send deal with educating and mobilizing people with respect to policy issues before Congress and other government bodies. These emails are fundamentally &quot;political speech&quot; as referred to in the 1st Amendment. This is why government ban and restrictions on SPAM do not apply to such communications. They are protected free speech. </p>
<p>That said, no advocacy organization wants to the be the judicial test case for such a claim. For that reason, and out of respect for people on their email lists, advocacy groups (with few exceptions), comply with the CAN-SPAM. Advocacy Groups rely on opt-in, provide a physical address, and an easy unsubscribe link. </p>
<p>The instigation for my initial tweet was that I learned NJABL.org was blacklisting organizations that did not use a double opt-in process.  </p>
<p>An important way most advocacy organizations grow their lists is by running advocacy campaigns where taking the action also signs you up for their email list. As a rule, this sign up process is fully disclosed on the action form. There are several advocacy campaign services that work this way, including Salsa, Capwiz, and Convio. </p>
<p>The other side of the equation is that organizations and ISPs that use blackisting services don&#039;t always fully appreciate who is being blacklisted. Indeed, some blacklisting services include other blacklisting services filters within their own, making it even harder to understand who is being blackisted and way. </p>
<p>While I fully appreciate that private companies can blacklist anyone they want, it strikes me as problematic on a practical, if not ethical level, to blacklist groups exercise protected political speech in such a blanket way. </p>
<p>I am not advocating banning the practice of blacklisting such groups, but rather suggesting it is important for people to better understand what is being blacklisted and why. If people have the right to freely express political views and those views are being blocked in a way that is obscured by the layering of blacklists or the difficulty in understanding who is blacklisted, that raises concerns in my mind. </p>
<p>In the end, I am all for ensuring that email is protected from abusers. I just don;&#039;t want to see that net cast too broadly such that it compromises our rights. </p>
<p>I hope this helps to clarify things. </p>
<p>And again, many thanks to you, Al, and Mark for taking the time to discuss this with me.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Inertia is not email marketing by mickc</title>
		<link>http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/CommentsForSpamtacular/~3/efiVs2yOFy0/</link>
		<dc:creator>mickc</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jul 2010 17:59:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.spamtacular.com/?p=1735#comment-1561</guid>
		<description>You know, I figured I was missing something and leave it up to good people like you to help the rest of us remember. 
 
Thanks! </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You know, I figured I was missing something and leave it up to good people like you to help the rest of us remember. </p>
<p>Thanks!</p>
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		<title>Comment on Inertia is not email marketing by mickc</title>
		<link>http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/CommentsForSpamtacular/~3/MsTMLRfcKn0/</link>
		<dc:creator>mickc</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jul 2010 17:47:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.spamtacular.com/?p=1735#comment-1560</guid>
		<description>This is so important for people to know. Doing email marketing right is about constant evaluation. If you can't figure out why people are not engaged by your efforts then you are doing something wrong. 
 
Testing is the only way to see if your strategy is a good one.  Some tests are easy to do, some are hard, but you cannot let inertia dictate any part of your marketing efforts. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is so important for people to know. Doing email marketing right is about constant evaluation. If you can&#039;t figure out why people are not engaged by your efforts then you are doing something wrong. </p>
<p>Testing is the only way to see if your strategy is a good one.  Some tests are easy to do, some are hard, but you cannot let inertia dictate any part of your marketing efforts.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Inertia is not email marketing by Laura</title>
		<link>http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/CommentsForSpamtacular/~3/k6cxcKIkVt0/</link>
		<dc:creator>Laura</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jul 2010 17:36:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.spamtacular.com/?p=1735#comment-1559</guid>
		<description>You missed what I think of as the most important reason to drop inactive addresses: the recipient never checks that address.  
 
Addresses are abandoned all the time. People set up an account for one reason or another and they stop checking it. Usually this is their "commercial" or "subscription" account. It could be a lot of the places they subscribed to sold their address and they can't sort out spam from subscriptions. Or it could just be that they are tired of that address. But, in any case, there is no one at that email address.   
 
ISPs tend to give a 6 - 12 month period before actually rejecting mail to abandoned addresses, but they do measure mail to inactive addresses as part of reputation scores. Blindly mailing to folks who aren't there isn't a good strategy.  </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You missed what I think of as the most important reason to drop inactive addresses: the recipient never checks that address.  </p>
<p>Addresses are abandoned all the time. People set up an account for one reason or another and they stop checking it. Usually this is their &quot;commercial&quot; or &quot;subscription&quot; account. It could be a lot of the places they subscribed to sold their address and they can&#039;t sort out spam from subscriptions. Or it could just be that they are tired of that address. But, in any case, there is no one at that email address.   </p>
<p>ISPs tend to give a 6 &#8211; 12 month period before actually rejecting mail to abandoned addresses, but they do measure mail to inactive addresses as part of reputation scores. Blindly mailing to folks who aren&#039;t there isn&#039;t a good strategy.</p>
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