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Indie - Let's Talk about Spanking

Indie — Sun, 27 Mar 2011 22:39:29 +0000

I would have to disagree that violence = out of control. If I beat a man on the street while totally in control is that not violence? If I rape a woman and believe in my twisted mind that I am doing it out of love, is that not violence? I think it is a big stretch to say that something is not violence just because we did it from a good motivation. And I really don't know what to say if you don't want to look at the science that says other forms of discipline are more effective. I guess it doesn't matter how many studies are put out there if you won't believe that they apply to your situation.

Chris - Let's Talk about Spanking

Chris — Sun, 27 Mar 2011 22:01:56 +0000

Hi Jamie, Thanks for your comments. Since it is 1 a.m. in the morning here I will wait to respond later, but really quickly. You should read a couple of my comments from 5 days ago because I totally agree with you. I absolutely know that it is not me that will produce anything in my child's life, it is all God's. I can't produce even the smallest amount of good in them, which is why it is God's fruit, not mine. Like I said 5 days ago, I do not expect perfection from my children, actually it is quite the opposite. I fail as a parent daily, which is why my trust is not in a discipline method, but God, though I am an advocate of spanking. But spanking will not change my kids though I believe it is a tool that God has given and I want to be faithful with it. My faith is in God to discipline my children for their good even when I fail (Heb. 12:10)

Chris - Let's Talk about Spanking

Chris — Sun, 27 Mar 2011 21:17:13 +0000

As another example, all of us verbally command our children to do certain things and inevitably they will also try to command their siblings or parents as well, but as a parent you teach them it is inappropriate and they can be taught not to. Same for spanking. If you take your child to karate he is learning to protect himself, even offensively. But you don't see children karate chopping each other all the time as they grow up, they learn discerment and self control. When I spank my son he does not see me as out of control or spanking him because I want vengence on him. He see's me calm, in love, with my heart towards him, he is not going to translate this into a right to hit people, especially if I am teaching him as well. But yes, if you are spanking your child and you are out of control and angry and really you are spanking more out of annoyance or flippantly than yes you may have a child who likes to hit.

Chris - Let's Talk about Spanking

Chris — Sun, 27 Mar 2011 21:16:05 +0000

I know I have talked too much but one more thing. A lot of people say, won't spanking my child teach him to hit.? Or won't it cause him to be violent? First, violence is an extreme word and has to do with being out of control. All forms of hitting are not violence. When a trainer trains a horse and whips him we don't think of it as violence, just training. Secondly, since I spank my kids they are curious and want to playfully use it on each other or me because they want to be like Daddy, but I correct them and tell them that only Mommy and Daddy spank, not you, finished. Kids need to learn their boundaries under authority and they can do it. My son is very gentle and never hits his sister even though I spank him.

Jamie - Let's Talk about Spanking

Jamie — Sun, 27 Mar 2011 20:53:24 +0000

Chris, I am curious to know which scriptures you are relying on and putting faith in when you spank your children. Would you care to share them here for the sake of conversation?

Chris - Let's Talk about Spanking

Chris — Sun, 27 Mar 2011 20:39:00 +0000

Therfore, If you are doing it on a whim, infrequently, or a last resort or only for the big things, or only when your kids really annoy you, then you probably will not get the results you want. If you and your spouse are not unified in your vision for it, your kids will realize it and it will not be effective. If you spank and yet you never take time to be with your children, play with them, and build trust then it will not be effective. If you spank and yet you give no instruction, comfort (hug), or encouragement in the midst of the discipline it will not be effective. If you spank and it is not in a reliance on God and faith in what His Word says then it will not be effective and you will give it up. We represent and have a great responsibility to reflect the character of God to our children in our discipline and doing spanking half heartedly or just "giving it a try" will not get the results and yes, unfortunately, you may get "perfect obedience that leads only to outward conformity and no inward change." And this is why you will find surveys declaring that spanking does not work, because we do not know how it is supposed to work.

Chris - Let's Talk about Spanking

Chris — Sun, 27 Mar 2011 20:35:48 +0000

Also a lot of people quote studies that show spanking is ineffective. First off, what people are they surveying? Alot of these studies ask "Did you spank?". Well, many people spank, but it says nothing to the fact of how they spank, where they spank, is it in anger, is it in the context of relationship, is it infrequent, is it on a whim, do you also try to get to your child's heart, are you reliant upon God or your spank to change your child? Survery's don't ask that stuff. They have an agenda and that is to disprove spanking and show it to be ineffective or even inhumane. If you were to survey the vast amounts of men and women in our local village they would all give you the affirmative "yes they spank", but when you look closer, what they really mean is we beat our children with anything we can pick up and hit them anywhere we please. There is no love, only anger, and a last resort because they got annoyed. Well of course you would prove spanking to be bad. But that is not the kind of discipline God or any of us would say is healthy. But I know most of these studies are not surveying tribes in Africa, they are looking at you and me.

Jamie - Let's Talk about Spanking

Jamie — Sun, 27 Mar 2011 20:33:39 +0000

Sorry, that link was the second page. Here's the first: http://aolff.org/spare-the-rod/

Jamie - Let's Talk about Spanking

Jamie — Sun, 27 Mar 2011 20:28:25 +0000

Ariah, I think I've recommended this book and website to you before, but I'll mention them again. "Biblical Parenting" by Pastor Crystal Lutton. AWESOME book! Check out the reviews on amazon here: http://www.amazon.com/Biblical-Parenting-Crystal-... Her website is "Arms of Love Family Fellowship"- it can be found at www.aolff.org . Lots of resources for creative "alternatives" to punitive parenting, and tons of other tools for your parenting toolbox. :)

Jamie - Let's Talk about Spanking

Jamie — Sun, 27 Mar 2011 20:04:32 +0000

We are not supposed to be *God* to our children. That is not our role. Instead, we are to lead our children *TO* God... using the fruits of the spirit. "Discipline" does not equal spanking. "Discipline" is simply discipling. Teaching. Leading by example. Jesus never once struck one of the apostles. He never once shamed them. He was never punitive. He loved them, he was patient with them, he was kind to them...even when they didn't "deserve" it. (Especially when they didn't deserve it.) He taught them about the father's love by LIVING it. If you truly want to discipline your child in a way that will lead them to Christ... in a way that will *stick* even when you are not around, where they are not choosing morality because of fear, but simply because it is *right*...then teach them, love them, show them what grace looks like, what patience and gentleness looks like.. This is what true "discipline" is. When it's all said and done, it is the responsibility of the *Holy Spirit* to produce the fruits of the spirit in your child's life. Not yours! Let's be honest here, even us mature believers struggle with modeling love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, gentleness and self control in a consistent manner. How can we expect children to have this perfected???

Chris - Let's Talk about Spanking

Chris — Sun, 27 Mar 2011 20:01:53 +0000

Also in reply to Indie comment. I don't know where God ever commanded his people to stone a disobedient child. (I am willing to be wrong and maybe he did at one point, but I couldn't find it) Yes, stoning was used as God's judgement on people and sometimes stoning was something done culturally to criminals or martyr's (like Stephen), but God never advocates stoning as something that should be done for all people of all time. God also told his people to wipe out cities and burn and kill all inhabitants, but he wasn't recommending that for us today. It was done to reveal the holiness of God, his judgement upon sin and our need for Him to make us clean b/c otherwise we deserve the same.

Chris - Let's Talk about Spanking

Chris — Sun, 27 Mar 2011 19:46:16 +0000

I have read a book by Philip Keller called A Shepherd Looks at Pslam 23, which includes "thy rod and thy staff comfort me". He grew up a shepherd in Kenya and he distinguishes the function of the rod and the staff b/c they are different. The rod he says is for power, authority, protection and discipline. In regards to discipline he would use it to strike wayward or rebellious sheep from going to dangerous places or being greedy. When you read through all he has to say you see how foolish and so much like humans sheep are. They are fearful, forgetful, and stubborn, which describes the human heart pretty well. His staff was as Keller states a symbol of the shepherds concern and compassion. Yet both the rod and staff bring comfort though one can be painful and the other gently used.

Chris - Let's Talk about Spanking

Chris — Sun, 27 Mar 2011 19:39:57 +0000

I have never been a shepherd, but I live among many here in Uganda. And very often you will see them guiding their herd not by gentle nudging but by strikes that cause discomfort. Their rod, of course, can be used gently nudge, but it is not always the case. When I think about children in general most do not respond to gentle nudging. Which is why so many parents (myself included) will resort to things like, "okay, I'm coming, 1, 2, 3, 3 1/2, 4, 5, okay last chance" or manipulation, which completely devalues the authority of your word and really the child will not listen until you get to "5" and they hear the tone of your voice change. I think God would love it if all he had to do was gently nudge us, but we are stubborn people like Israel and he disciplines us, and it often hurts.

thomasirby - Let's Talk about Spanking

thomasirby — Thu, 24 Mar 2011 08:10:04 +0000

In regards to the "don't spank out of anger" discussion, this is how my parents handled it (and how I plan to when my son starts getting old enough to actually tick me off): They would send me to my room for about 5 minutes. That would give them time to cool off. Then they would come up and spank me. The extra 5 minutes of suspense was almost as bad as the spanking itself... I usually had my lesson learned before my dad ever graced my doorway. Anyway, those are my thoughts. I also don't judge anyone else's discipline methods. This method seemed to work with me and I plan on using with my children.

thomasirby - Let's Talk about Spanking

thomasirby — Thu, 24 Mar 2011 08:09:57 +0000

I do spank my child from time to time (never as a first response). I only spank him when he clearly and defiantly disobeys. I will literally have told him not to do a particular action 3 times (at a minimum) before I even consider spanking. When he gets a little older I'm sure my boundaries will change. And in regards to the thought that spanking is ineffective- I can't quote any data, but I can only speak from my own childhood experience. My parents spanked me. Spaking definitely created a respect for my parents in me. I had a healthy fear of their "judgement". I never felt like they didn't love me because they spanked me, I just knew that I had done something wrong and that this was the punishment for that wrong. Also, I would say that their discipline was so effective because they followed up with other forms of love, encouragement, and reinforcement. They would actually take the time to explain to me what I had done wrong and why it was important that I do the right thing. They would always hug me afterward.

Liz - Let's Talk about Spanking

Liz — Tue, 22 Mar 2011 20:52:59 +0000

Ariah-- while I don't have kids yet, I rabbit trailed into this the other day
http://www.askdrsears.com/html/6/T062100.asp and I think they are very clear headed about the difficulties in spanking.

On a positive/more helpful note, they also have a ton of creative discipline ideas here:
http://www.askdrsears.com/html/6/T060100.asp which I think are worth a look.

Jake - Let's Talk about Spanking

Jake — Tue, 22 Mar 2011 19:59:49 +0000

We do not spank for a couple reasons - the most prominent being: using violence on children shows them that its OK to deal with problems using violence.

Jamie - Let's Talk about Spanking

Jamie — Tue, 22 Mar 2011 18:28:29 +0000

Also wanted to make it clear that "Spare the rod, spoil the child" is not from the Bible. Check this out: http://aolff.org/spare-the-rod/the-spanking-files...

Jamie - Let's Talk about Spanking

Jamie — Tue, 22 Mar 2011 18:22:52 +0000

I think you'll dig this "spare the rod" study. It was really helpful to me in the early days of my parenting journey. http://aolff.org/spare-the-rod

Indie - Let's Talk about Spanking

Indie — Tue, 22 Mar 2011 04:07:58 +0000

On the rare occasions that I have spanked my children because I haven't known what else to do, they almost always say, "Mama, why did you hit me?" When children haven't been taught that it is ok for big people to hit little people to make them do what the big people want then the children will see it for what it is--hitting. And I agree about the statement from Crow_Child about the rod. "Your rod and your staff they comfort me" surely is referring to guidance not hitting. But even if portions of the Old Testament to recommend hitting, we should remember that they also recommend stoning a disobedient child. I dare say that I won't be doing that. And beyond all this, study after study shows that spanking just plain doesn't work in the long run. In the short run it gets the desired results (obedience) more quickly and can seem at the time to be desirable. But in the long run it does not teach the child to develop the inner motivation to do right. If I've only motivated my child to do right for fear of a spanking then I've failed as a parent. I'd rather have disobedience in the course of moral instruction than to have perfect obedience that leads only to outward conformity and not inward change. All that said, I suck as a parent and don't live up to my own ideals so I'd be hard pressed to judge anyone.