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	<title>Comments for The Post-Normal Times</title>
	
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		<title>Comment on Perry actually says something correct, but deeply misleading by John Mashey</title>
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		<dc:creator>John Mashey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Aug 2011 06:06:49 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Glad to hear the long-awaited article is not forgotten.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Glad to hear the long-awaited article is not forgotten.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Perry actually says something correct, but deeply misleading by The Post-Normal Times , Archive » Perry actually says something correct, but deeply misleading | Rationally Thinking Out Loud</title>
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		<dc:creator>The Post-Normal Times , Archive » Perry actually says something correct, but deeply misleading | Rationally Thinking Out Loud</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 27 Aug 2011 02:17:26 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>[...] The Post-Normal Times , Archive » Perry actually says something correct, but deeply misleading. Share and Enjoy:Written by: Jerrald Hayes on August 26, [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] The Post-Normal Times , Archive » Perry actually says something correct, but deeply misleading. Share and Enjoy:Written by: Jerrald Hayes on August 26, [...]</p>
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		<title>Comment on Another welcome to Post-Normal Times by David Stinson</title>
		<link>http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/CommentsForThePost-normalTimes/~3/e8O70tHkXfk/</link>
		<dc:creator>David Stinson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 03 Jul 2011 21:16:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://postnormaltimes.net/wpblog/?p=294#comment-9112</guid>
		<description>&gt;&gt;how science can play a more constructive role in finding our way to a new normal?

...One word: economics.  While the core logic of PNS seems solid - the hard science only goes so far - in the details, its practitioners seem to neglect any solutions or approaches other disciplines have found around these same sorts of problems.  Social sciences can get you systems theories, ways to reduce complexity, risk tolerances, and even chaos theory these days.  According to Sardar, "Indeed, it is ethics, and only ethics, that can guide us out of the postnormal impasse."  If that's true, than the entire global warming debate is going to devolve into people saying, "trust me", which will only muddy the waters even further.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&gt;&gt;how science can play a more constructive role in finding our way to a new normal?</p>
<p>&#8230;One word: economics.  While the core logic of PNS seems solid &#8211; the hard science only goes so far &#8211; in the details, its practitioners seem to neglect any solutions or approaches other disciplines have found around these same sorts of problems.  Social sciences can get you systems theories, ways to reduce complexity, risk tolerances, and even chaos theory these days.  According to Sardar, &#8220;Indeed, it is ethics, and only ethics, that can guide us out of the postnormal impasse.&#8221;  If that&#8217;s true, than the entire global warming debate is going to devolve into people saying, &#8220;trust me&#8221;, which will only muddy the waters even further.</p>
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		<title>Comment on New normal or post-normal? by Sylvia S Tognetti</title>
		<link>http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/CommentsForThePost-normalTimes/~3/FyJo0SDLDZY/</link>
		<dc:creator>Sylvia S Tognetti</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 17 Apr 2011 13:53:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://postnormaltimes.net/wpblog/?p=335#comment-8767</guid>
		<description>Hello Jerry, and thanks for commenting. I have another post (that I think is near done) revisiting the basics of PNS. I still find the basic concepts valuable but also find that like many other areas of science, PNS too can be misused, and unless I am missing something, it has not adequately dealt with the corruption of the extended peer review process with deliberate disinformation. The context of the Lisbon workshop was your post on WUWT, now published as a journal article in Futures, which takes a number of claims at face value that have little if any merit. e.g., if one accepts the contrarian premises of "Climategate" one has to, at a minimum, say where one disagrees with all of the subsequent investigative reports that found nothing wrong. The extensively plagiarized Wegman report is also not a reliable source for doubts about "the hockey stick". I will provide more details and links in my next post, which I swear is close to done. 

I know readers don't come here for reasons I haven't been blogging - mostly complexities in my personal life, but I would also like to get beyond arguing with contrarians and in the future, would like to bring the focus of this blog to creating a proper place for science (the notion of restoring it to a proper place rests on the assumption that it had one to begin with), and how it might help navigate the backloop to some new normal.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hello Jerry, and thanks for commenting. I have another post (that I think is near done) revisiting the basics of PNS. I still find the basic concepts valuable but also find that like many other areas of science, PNS too can be misused, and unless I am missing something, it has not adequately dealt with the corruption of the extended peer review process with deliberate disinformation. The context of the Lisbon workshop was your post on WUWT, now published as a journal article in Futures, which takes a number of claims at face value that have little if any merit. e.g., if one accepts the contrarian premises of &#8220;Climategate&#8221; one has to, at a minimum, say where one disagrees with all of the subsequent investigative reports that found nothing wrong. The extensively plagiarized Wegman report is also not a reliable source for doubts about &#8220;the hockey stick&#8221;. I will provide more details and links in my next post, which I swear is close to done. </p>
<p>I know readers don&#8217;t come here for reasons I haven&#8217;t been blogging &#8211; mostly complexities in my personal life, but I would also like to get beyond arguing with contrarians and in the future, would like to bring the focus of this blog to creating a proper place for science (the notion of restoring it to a proper place rests on the assumption that it had one to begin with), and how it might help navigate the backloop to some new normal.</p>
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		<title>Comment on New normal or post-normal? by Jerry Ravetz</title>
		<link>http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/CommentsForThePost-normalTimes/~3/5qnOIaQ9R-I/</link>
		<dc:creator>Jerry Ravetz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 17 Apr 2011 10:11:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://postnormaltimes.net/wpblog/?p=335#comment-8763</guid>
		<description>Hello Sylvia and everybody -

        Sorry for long absence.  Just to say that while some people see PNS as 'tailor-made for the denialist crowd', others see it as a substitution of political correctness for scientific integrity, and hence a cheats' charter for the warmistas.  I've also seen PNS quoted casually and completely erroneously.   I suppose that all that is the inevitable price to pay for a concept becoming popular.

        Our Lisbon workshop on Reconciliation was a great success.  Everyone was rather pleased to see that those on the other side were really quite human after all.  And the spirit of civility really did work.  There were some sharp exchanges, and also some useful technical discussions and agreement to work on particular disagreements.

        All the best -

             Jerry</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hello Sylvia and everybody -</p>
<p>        Sorry for long absence.  Just to say that while some people see PNS as &#8216;tailor-made for the denialist crowd&#8217;, others see it as a substitution of political correctness for scientific integrity, and hence a cheats&#8217; charter for the warmistas.  I&#8217;ve also seen PNS quoted casually and completely erroneously.   I suppose that all that is the inevitable price to pay for a concept becoming popular.</p>
<p>        Our Lisbon workshop on Reconciliation was a great success.  Everyone was rather pleased to see that those on the other side were really quite human after all.  And the spirit of civility really did work.  There were some sharp exchanges, and also some useful technical discussions and agreement to work on particular disagreements.</p>
<p>        All the best -</p>
<p>             Jerry</p>
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		<title>Comment on New normal or post-normal? by Kooiti Masuda</title>
		<link>http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/CommentsForThePost-normalTimes/~3/_ivcwNxakjA/</link>
		<dc:creator>Kooiti Masuda</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 19 Mar 2011 16:01:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://postnormaltimes.net/wpblog/?p=335#comment-8574</guid>
		<description>I think that the IPCC guideline on description of uncertainties is an example of "adjusting questions" as I mentioned above. Stephen Schneider, who certainly contributed much to it, wrote what he meant in "Science as a Contact Sport". People who engage in risk assessment want a range of outcomes with its probability. I think the guideline worked in some cases. But, as demonstrated in a few real failures (such as the outlook of Himalayan glaciers) among many purported failures of IPCC WG2, it sometimes did not work. Apparently some authors attached labels of the uncertainty scale without much thoughts. And, as the InterAcademy Council panel's report says, sometimes a very broad range is mentioned with high likelihood, which statement is practically meaningless. So the IAC panel suggests using simpler schemes unless precise estimates of probability is available. Expression of uncertainty is still a difficult problem.

I also want to notice that it is difficult to take the precautionary principle, or (not always equivalent) taking the worst scenario, as the principle, though it is a good as a hint. Our outlook about continuous variables does not usually have a well-defined "high end". There is some possibility of a very high value to happen, but we cannot assign it a quantitative value of probability, except saying that the probability is very low. Then whether we should include such a scenerio depends on individual value judgements rather than scientific assessments. Perhaps we had better taking the high end of such outcomes that quantitative probability can be assigned, taking notice that we technically exclude rare possibilities.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think that the IPCC guideline on description of uncertainties is an example of &#8220;adjusting questions&#8221; as I mentioned above. Stephen Schneider, who certainly contributed much to it, wrote what he meant in &#8220;Science as a Contact Sport&#8221;. People who engage in risk assessment want a range of outcomes with its probability. I think the guideline worked in some cases. But, as demonstrated in a few real failures (such as the outlook of Himalayan glaciers) among many purported failures of IPCC WG2, it sometimes did not work. Apparently some authors attached labels of the uncertainty scale without much thoughts. And, as the InterAcademy Council panel&#8217;s report says, sometimes a very broad range is mentioned with high likelihood, which statement is practically meaningless. So the IAC panel suggests using simpler schemes unless precise estimates of probability is available. Expression of uncertainty is still a difficult problem.</p>
<p>I also want to notice that it is difficult to take the precautionary principle, or (not always equivalent) taking the worst scenario, as the principle, though it is a good as a hint. Our outlook about continuous variables does not usually have a well-defined &#8220;high end&#8221;. There is some possibility of a very high value to happen, but we cannot assign it a quantitative value of probability, except saying that the probability is very low. Then whether we should include such a scenerio depends on individual value judgements rather than scientific assessments. Perhaps we had better taking the high end of such outcomes that quantitative probability can be assigned, taking notice that we technically exclude rare possibilities.</p>
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		<title>Comment on New normal or post-normal? by Sylvia S Tognetti</title>
		<link>http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/CommentsForThePost-normalTimes/~3/IJQd3Ve4wRU/</link>
		<dc:creator>Sylvia S Tognetti</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 19 Mar 2011 13:56:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://postnormaltimes.net/wpblog/?p=335#comment-8573</guid>
		<description>Kooiti - good points. What seems to be often overlooked is that post-normal science does not replace normal science, i.e., publication in journals and peer review by those in the field remains necessary but not sufficient. PNS is more like an extension of NS that is complementary to it. And good suggestion regarding the need to adjust the questions to ones that science can answer - much of the problem lies in the public image of science and the expectation of definitive answers.

 (key points in my next post that I need to finish. Pressure is on...)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Kooiti &#8211; good points. What seems to be often overlooked is that post-normal science does not replace normal science, i.e., publication in journals and peer review by those in the field remains necessary but not sufficient. PNS is more like an extension of NS that is complementary to it. And good suggestion regarding the need to adjust the questions to ones that science can answer &#8211; much of the problem lies in the public image of science and the expectation of definitive answers.</p>
<p> (key points in my next post that I need to finish. Pressure is on&#8230;)</p>
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		<title>Comment on New normal or post-normal? by Kooiti Masuda</title>
		<link>http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/CommentsForThePost-normalTimes/~3/XC2WxYx86OA/</link>
		<dc:creator>Kooiti Masuda</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 19 Mar 2011 12:59:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://postnormaltimes.net/wpblog/?p=335#comment-8572</guid>
		<description>Excuse me. The link to Chris Milly's list of publication in my previous post should be as follows.
http://water.usgs.gov/nrp/proj.bib/milly.html</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Excuse me. The link to Chris Milly&#8217;s list of publication in my previous post should be as follows.<br />
<a href="http://water.usgs.gov/nrp/proj.bib/milly.html" rel="nofollow">http://water.usgs.gov/nrp/proj.bib/milly.html</a></p>
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		<title>Comment on New normal or post-normal? by Kooiti Masuda</title>
		<link>http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/CommentsForThePost-normalTimes/~3/0Py5zNN8w6I/</link>
		<dc:creator>Kooiti Masuda</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 19 Mar 2011 12:57:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://postnormaltimes.net/wpblog/?p=335#comment-8571</guid>
		<description>The issue that we can no more rely on the "normal" in the sense Heidi Cullen refers to is discussed by hydrologists as "non-stationarity" (of time series, a technical term in stochastic theories in applied mathematics). The phrase "Stationarity is dead" used by Chris Milly at USGS (also with NOAA GFDL) in 2007 (see list of his publication list http://water.usgs.gov/nrp/proj.bib/milly.htm ) became popular (popular within the community of a scientific discipline, I mean).

But, scientists can be still "normal" in the Kuhnian sense when they work with hydrology in a non-stationary (or post-normal, in a sense) world.  They continue publishing academic papers in &lt;i&gt;Water Resources Research&lt;/i&gt; of AGU, for example.

It seems really post-normal (in Kuhnian sense) to me that scientists are sometimes asked for what they cannot answer with confidence. Then, the society, including the scientists, must develop adequate combination of questions and answers. Perhaps we need a new type of semi-experts (interactional experts, in terms of Harry Collins and Robert Evans) to adjust questions considering both what society requests and what scientists can answer.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The issue that we can no more rely on the &#8220;normal&#8221; in the sense Heidi Cullen refers to is discussed by hydrologists as &#8220;non-stationarity&#8221; (of time series, a technical term in stochastic theories in applied mathematics). The phrase &#8220;Stationarity is dead&#8221; used by Chris Milly at USGS (also with NOAA GFDL) in 2007 (see list of his publication list <a href="http://water.usgs.gov/nrp/proj.bib/milly.htm" rel="nofollow">http://water.usgs.gov/nrp/proj.bib/milly.htm</a> ) became popular (popular within the community of a scientific discipline, I mean).</p>
<p>But, scientists can be still &#8220;normal&#8221; in the Kuhnian sense when they work with hydrology in a non-stationary (or post-normal, in a sense) world.  They continue publishing academic papers in <i>Water Resources Research</i> of AGU, for example.</p>
<p>It seems really post-normal (in Kuhnian sense) to me that scientists are sometimes asked for what they cannot answer with confidence. Then, the society, including the scientists, must develop adequate combination of questions and answers. Perhaps we need a new type of semi-experts (interactional experts, in terms of Harry Collins and Robert Evans) to adjust questions considering both what society requests and what scientists can answer.</p>
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		<title>Comment on New normal or post-normal? by Eli Rabett</title>
		<link>http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/CommentsForThePost-normalTimes/~3/yS2k3jWrbIQ/</link>
		<dc:creator>Eli Rabett</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Mar 2011 01:10:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://postnormaltimes.net/wpblog/?p=335#comment-8529</guid>
		<description>More please.

BTW this is what TB was babbling about

If we increase the proportion of CO2 in the atmosphere, the level at which energy can be radiated to space rises also because of increased absorption, but since this higher level is colder and the pressure and density are lower, the doorway becomes narrower, and the surface has to warm more in order to shove the same amount of energy out and restore the balance with the incoming energy carried by the sunlight.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>More please.</p>
<p>BTW this is what TB was babbling about</p>
<p>If we increase the proportion of CO2 in the atmosphere, the level at which energy can be radiated to space rises also because of increased absorption, but since this higher level is colder and the pressure and density are lower, the doorway becomes narrower, and the surface has to warm more in order to shove the same amount of energy out and restore the balance with the incoming energy carried by the sunlight.</p>
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