Counsel to Counsel

The Power of the Social Media Echo Chamber

2009-11-06T08:28:00.002-05:00

Yesterday, Law.com published an article with the headline, Experts: Lower Associate Pay is Here to Stay. It was a provocative headline and one that I continued to see cited throughout the day in the Twitosphere. By the end of the day, I was convinced that lower associate pay was a "done deal". And then I thought to myself, what is the source of my belief? In-depth research? The opinions of the majority of the managing partners on the AmLaw100? No.

The source of these conclusions all boiled down to the comments made by two consultants at Altman Weil. Intuitively, I happen to believe they are correct. I also respect them as a great consulting firm. But I also believe that the authority on which the conclusion is based needs a lot more corroboration.

It's all a reminder to me that social media has tremendous power to become an echo chamber for ideas. Anyone who understands how to take advantage of this fact has a powerful marketing tool at their disposal (and the cost of entry is only your time.)

Creating a Memorable Blog to Market Your Law Practice

2009-11-05T09:26:00.001-05:00

My next free webinar on November 18th.

Cut Hours,Cut Salaries and Increase Profits?

2009-10-29T09:08:00.001-04:00

Increase your profitability while increasing work/life balance at your firm--that according to a study published in the ACC Docket.

Do You Send Thank You Notes to Your Referral Sources?

2009-10-27T17:55:00.002-04:00

What about gifts? How would you feel if you kept referring work to another professional and never received a thank you?

I know what I would do (and what I have done!) I'd stop referring work to that individual.

Blawg Review #235

2009-10-25T18:15:00.000-04:00

On this 80th Anniversary of the Stock Market Crash of 1929, I am pleased to host Blawg Review and dedicate Blawg Review #235 to The Great Recession.

How has our current crisis changed the practice of law and affected our careers as attorneys? Fortunately for me, there was no shortage of reading material on the subject this past week.

The news from large law firms continues to be mostly bad; though there was at least one flicker of hope reported on Above the Law this week. So do any lawyers have job security in this economy? Maybe only lawyers who have their own business.

Lawyers who don't want to build a practice may look to government as an alternative employer. But those hoping to get a position in the White House Counsel's office may have to wait a while longer.

What if you like private practice and your firm isn't giving you the support you need to successfully find clients? Maybe the time is ripe to hire a coach. Or if you decide that launching your own firm is the way to go (or your only option), the Wisconsin Law Journal highlights 10 Terrific Law Practice Management Blogs that teach you what you never learned in law school.

If you do launch your own practice, perhaps a reality TV show can help to market the firm. But then again, prior attempts at this have failed.

There are classic mistakes to avoid in trying to sell your legal services. There are also a lot of obstacles that can get in your way of success when you are building a practice (particularly for associates at large firms.)

Small Firm Advantages

Smaller firms can benefit from current conditions in the marketplace for legal services. IMHO, large law firms are simply accelerating their own demise by creating an army of cheaper competition with all the layoffs that have taken place.

To the extent that large firms can continue to be competitive in these difficult times, they need to find ways to deliver value. Don Frederico, a large firm veteran and President-Elect of the Boston Bar Association, suggests that the message of the Great Recession is not simply that lawyers need to get out there more (e.g. with social media). He suggests that lawyers ask themselves the following questions:

1. Am I providing maximum value to my clients?
2. Am I prepared to share in the risks of bad outcomes (and will my clients share in the rewards of success)?
3. How do my clients define "success" in the matters for which they engage me?
4. Do I understand my clients' business?
5. How can I enhance the level of service I provide to my clients?
6. Am I doing enough to hone my skills and stay current in my field?
7. Am I, or is my firm, meeting my clients' expectations in the areas of diversity, community service and pro bono? Am I demanding these commitments of myself, regardless of my clients' expectations, simply because they are the right things to do?
8. Are my marketing efforts only trumpeting my abilities and experience, or are they also providing valuable information to my clients and contacts?

If you are Still Gainfully Employed, Don't Go it Alone

If you do manage to be one of the lucky ones who gets to keep your job, don’t make the mistake of going it alone. Ask for help when you need it. No one will doubt your competence if you do. In fact as Bruce MacEwen suggests, even leaders at law firms should be seeking help from their key advisers.

Social Media is a Good Area to Seek Out Help

The rules of social media use are still being developed but one thing is clear: social media will pay an increasing role in marketing professional services as we exit the Great Recession.

What if you are not that familiar with social media or how to use it effectively? Learn. Find someone to help you. The desire to keep learning and growing is what separates a star lawyer from a superstar.

Should bosses be friending their subordinates? An emphatic no from some employment lawyers. But what happens in law firms when associates are friends and one becomes a partner? (Not a big risk in these economic times where the chances of making partner at a large law firm are not much greater than the chance of being struck by lightning twice.)

Speaking of social media policies, how should a law firm police the behavior of employees who may be wasting time on social media. Blocking doesn’t seem quite right because there are legitimate business uses of social media.

If you are looking to develop a social media policy for a company or for your law firm,
the Association of Corporate Counsel has a great paper on the subject-Social Networking for Companies: Leading Practices in Leveraging Social Media for Business, Creating Social Networking Policies and Using Social Media in Hiring (though I believe you need to be a member of the Martindale Hubbell Connected Social Media Policy Group in order to view this)

If you have any doubt about the importance of participating in the use of social media, watch the Youtube video shared by Jim Calloway (via Gerry Riskin).

Susan Cartier Liebel makes a compelling case that use of social media is not optional for lawyers.

[A]ll things being equal, people will do business with those they know like and trust. And as much as those would like to dismiss the power of followers and online referrals and connecting on Facebook they do so at their own peril.

But at least one PI lawyer thinks that using Twitter raises the specter that clients will see that you are doing non-business things during work hours (i.e. clients will question your commitment to their case or to the practice of law more generally.)

Are Law Schools Responding to the Changed Marketplace?

What about law schools? Are schools modifying their course offerings to address changes in the job market? Stephanie West Allen suggests that there is a growing interest in courses dealing with behavioral economics and social psychology at top law schools. She links to some of her prior posts where she cites her concerns that these fields can lead the legal system in the wrong direction (pushing us away from taking personal responsibility for our bad acts).

Certainly many of us would like to figure out why no one is taking personal responsibility for the crazy financial engineering and risky financial products that lead us into the Great Recession. But then again, behavioral economics teach us that government can influence our behavior in a positive way by directing our default choices.

More generally, are law schools modifying their course offerings to address changes in the job market? Shouldn’t curriculum be modified based on what is needed in the marketplace? Yes says one commentator and no says another.

How Should Law Firms be Reacting to the Great Recession?

Law firms should take note of:

[T]he rise of merit compensation, multisourcing, non-lawyer stakeholders and the demands made on leadership generally and practice group management specifically; the decline of mergers, hourly billings, big real estate holdings, compensation generally, and fixed levels of staffing.

In other words, transition is the keyword. Your competitors are leaving no stone unturned in their search for an edge in a difficult market--neither should you.

There is evidence to support some of these trends. Take for example research on alternative billing.

In terms of compensation, firms need to focus on the short term to prevent the flight of valued partners. Reducing associate compensation should also be a part of the equation. But should lockstep really go?

Cost Control is Driving In-House Decision Making in the Great Recession

According to a study done by the consulting firm Hildebrandt, “…more work is being brought in-house, alternative fee arrangements are in high demand and spending is shrinking. The rate of increase for inside and outside legal spend and compensation slowed in 2008.”

This past week at the Annual Meeting of the Association of Corporate Counsel, the ACC released a study showing that for the first time in three years, controlling the costs spent on outside counsel is a top priority for in-house legal chiefs (compliance is now second). Also noted in the study is that the “use of alternative fee structures rose to 61 percent of in-house counsel and fixed fees about 38 percent. Project retainers (15.4 percent) and contingency fees (10.5 percent)”.

Meanwhile at the ALI-ABA ACLEA 2009 Summit, panelists predicted a number of important trends on the way: law firms will start acting like clients and will demand law schools teach more of what law firms need; Altman Weil’s Ward Bower predicted “deferral of law school graduates is a losing proposition for the graduates and the firms. The industry is more likely to see reduced starting salaries combined with apprentice programs moving forward. While firms will still have to write off time in that model, it will be a more affordable investment than paying the higher salaries”. He also said that “globalization of clients will continue to force even small firms to deal with matters abroad or represent foreign clients in the United States. Large and quick law firms will have the competitive advantage, he said, but smaller firms can compete with the use of technology”.

Also, U.K.'s Legal Services Act of 2007, which when it takes effect will allow law firms to raise capital like a public company will impact even U.S. law firms (particularly as we come out of the recession and firms have money to spend.)

Can Outsourcing to India be Part of the Cost Control?

If you want to leverage your time with resources from India, how do you know that the vendor you choose is keeping your data secure? Matthew Sullivan has some answers.

And get beyond the headlines when you see articles discussing the potential problems with outsourcing. Law.com’s use of the headline “Legal Pitfalls of Outsourcing May Outweigh Benefits, Says New Survey" doesn’t tell the story contained in a recent study by Kroll, Inc. on corporate fraud. LegalEase Solutions writes “The survey never intimates that the risks outweigh rewards. The survey simply says do your due diligence. Just like you would do in any other business capacity.”

Where Did it All Start?

There are numerous pundits ready to weigh in on the causes off the current economic downturn. Was it sub-prime lending? Credit default swaps? Or simply the fact that borrowing money was cheap and easy?

Will better regulation of the financial markets prevent this in the future since trying to educate consumers doesn't work in a complex economy?

“[The]..classical ideal of face-to-face, issue-by-issue negotiations that underlies contract law is simply inapt for the modern economy. Acting as if we can simply give people better educations and then send them out on their own in a world of basic contract law ignores the change that mass consumerism wrought on the notion of contracting. … Pushing the education angle inadvertently pushes us back in the direction of this outmoded way of thinking about contracting.”

The Dark Side of the Great Recession

Thankfully we don’t read about lawyer suicides every day; but the story of Mark Levy, an associate who was let go from Kilpatrick Stockton, is particularly chilling.

And are law firms suing their clients with increasing frequency during these hard times? It is hard to see how much good can come from this though $2,000,000 will buy a lot of legal pads for your office.

Where is it All Heading?

Change is coming to a law firm near you. If things haven't changed already, they will. The marketplace for legal services is fundamentally different then it was two years ago. So how will we all survive the Great Recession? As the Rabbi at my temple said in September on the Jewish New Year: Gam Zeh Y'avor (this too shall pass).

Blawg Review has information about next week's host, and instructions how to get your blawg posts reviewed in upcoming issues. Next week’s host is the New York Personal Injury Law Blog.

Don't Hunker Down, Team Up

2009-10-22T17:37:00.004-04:00

It has been a while since I've had guest bloggers on CounseltoCounsel; but I was contacted by Jim Rhyner, Worldwide Lawyers Professional Liability Insurance Product Manager for Chubb Insurance, and he expressed an interest in presenting some malpractice avoidance tips to my readers.

While many of the other would-be guests who contact me have clearly never read this blog, Jim seems to have some very good ideas to contribute (on themes that relate to attorney marketing and careers). So here is his first post:

The current economy has resulted in many empty offices at law firms. Layoffs impact a firm in a multitude of ways, including effects on remaining attorneys – many of whom live in fear of the proverbial “pink slip.” In addition to contributing to a tense workplace atmosphere, my colleagues and I have seen anxiety over job security translate into more tangible economic risks, particularly when:

1. Attorneys hesitate to share a problem or reach out to colleagues for fear of appearing incapable or

2. Attorneys take on a broader scope of work than their experience would normally dictate

Given the increased pressure on legal professionals, it isn’t a surprise that many act upon the instinct to “turtle” in tough times: keeping their work close to the vest, fiercely guarding client relationships, and making an effort to fly under the radar of the senior partners. An attorney (or any professional) in a high-pressure situation tends to become paralyzed when faced with a problem of his or her own making. When that person fails to enlist the help of another individual or department who may be better qualified to handle an issue, things can get sticky and liability exposures are more likely to occur.

Secondly, attorneys who take on an increased workload without senior managers’ knowledge may create a potentially costly exposure. Take for example an associate at a mid-size law firm who’s been working with a client to close a commercial transaction. As the project progresses, it builds in complexity and the associate takes on more work, increasing the firm’s potential liability exposure far greater than originally anticipated, particularly given the associate’s experience level. If management isn’t aware of this situation until a claim occurs, the firm could face unanticipated liability with an exposure well in excess of the limits of the firm’s liability policy.

The reality is, even in tough times, teamwork and insight from an experienced partner can solve just about any problem – but only if someone is brave enough to ask for help.

Lawyers, Process Management and the Billable Hour's Demise

2009-10-22T14:34:00.002-04:00

There is a good piece today in Law.com about how law firms are looking more seriously at process management in order to reign in legal costs. It's all tied into the backlash against the billable hour, a trend that has been growing since the start of the Great Recession. The author writes:

Project and process management -- in essence the antithesis of the billable-hour model -- is a concept being eyed by law firms as they try to ensure they can deliver the efficiency required to make good on their alternative fee arrangements.

I wrote about this in another blog that I was writing for a client (suggesting that lawyers only have to look at how contractors charge for their work in order to figure out how to do the same in the practice of law).

What this all means is that the days of running the clock are over for attorneys. Like contractors, lawyers need to figure out how to apply the "right" resources to get different parts of the job done. Tasking a first year associate with document review and charging the client $300 per hour will be a thing of the past within a few years. Once lawyers are working for a fixed fee, the right incentives will be there to become more efficient (or process oriented).

The career implications are obvious to me. If you haven't already started investigating ways to price legal work on a project basis, the time has come; and if you have never thought about how to break your work into pieces so that some aspects of the work can be done by cheaper vendors, then start doing this and you will find very receptive clients.

5 Marketing Rules for a Web 2.0 World--Recording Now Available

2009-10-22T10:21:00.006-04:00

For those who were unable to attend my live webinar, 5 Marketing Rules for a Web 2.0 World, the presentation is available under the Media tab at www.seckler.com .

Seeking Blog Posts Re: Impact of Great Recession on Practice of Law

2009-10-16T20:15:00.005-04:00

I have signed up to host Blawg Review on October 26th. Blawg Review is a summary of law related blog posts from a given week (in my case, posts from October 19-26).

I have chosen the theme The Great Recession. I am interested in reviewing posts that address the issue of how the Great Recession has impacted the practice of law (for better or worse). I am particularly interested in practical career and marketing suggestions for getting through these difficult times. If you are thinking of making a submission, see http://blawgreview.blogspot.com/2005/03/submission-guidelines.html .

Is Biglaw Creating an Army of Competition?

2009-10-16T15:38:00.002-04:00

I was reading the latest layoff announcement (this time Foley and Lardner) and a thought suddenly occurred to me. Given the enormous downward pressure on legal fees and the predictions that corporate counsel will reduce outside legal spending in 2010, maybe these layoffs are only going to accelerate the decline of Biglaw. After all, a high percentage of lawyers leaving large firms will end up at smaller firms where they have lower billing rates.

Pushing more legal talent out the door will increase the supply of talented lawyers who are willing to work for considerably less than their old billing rates.

So in essence, Biglaw is creating an army of hungry lawyers who will be pitching themselves as a much cheaper alternative (i.e. Biglaw training at small law prices). The sell will be more effective for former partners, counsel and senior associates; but there are plenty of those who have been shown the door so watch out Biglaw!

Legal Marketing in a Web 2.0 World

2009-10-14T10:59:00.003-04:00

My latest article in Massachusetts Lawyers Weekly (written with my co-author Vanessa DiMauro of Leader Networks).

A True Electronic Future for the Practice of Law

2009-10-14T09:28:00.002-04:00

I've bought real estate, sold real estate and refinanced many times. Each time I complete a transaction, I think to myself, there has got to be a better way to do this. So much energy is wasted on producing paper documents and going through a huge stack of them and signing them one at a time. But maybe some truly entrepreneurial lawyers are finally getting it right.

While we are far from creating a paperless law office, has the time for true electronic transactions finally arrived?

The marketplace is screaming for more efficiency and lower legal fees. There is a lot of opportunity here for tech savvy lawyers in all practice areas who can find ways to do it better, faster and cheaper.

So what have you done lately to add efficiency to your practice?

Of course this is all tied into how lawyers charge for legal services and until lawyers more fully embrace alternatives to the billable hour, the motivation remains high to continue being inefficient.

21 Tips for Legal Marketing in a Web 2.0 World

2009-10-13T13:13:00.002-04:00

I published an article in Massachusetts Lawyers Weekly (October 5, 2009) on social networking. The electronic reprint will be available in another week or so and I will link to it then. In the meantime, here is the start of the article:

Twitter, LinkedIn and other forms of social networking are getting a lot of attention these days. But if you are not sure how to integrate these tools into an overall marketing strategy, you are in good company.

Social networking is such a new phenomenon that the rules of engagement are still being written, tested and rewritten. In the meantime, if you care about building your law practice, you don't want to be sitting on the sidelines. Getting involved online should become part of your overall marketing effort.

So how can you make effective use of these tools? For starters, it is important to understand that the fundamentals of marketing professional services have not changed.

In order to lay a good foundation for generating work for your firm, you still need to:

• develop a niche;

• find ways to build your reputation around this niche; and

• spend time building trusting relationships with potential clients and referral sources.

While Web 2.0 can help in this effort, it is no substitute for getting out of your office. Web 2.0 does not obviate the need to pick up the phone and find out what your existing clients are up to; rather, it is a way to extend the conversation and keep it going over time.

Blogging and tweeting alone will not establish you as an expert, but these tools can help reinforce your reputation.

Here are 21 tips to get you going: [stay tuned for a link to the reprint or go to MLW, October 5, 2009 to read the article now]

Finding the "Right" Motivation to Make Change

2009-10-09T09:17:00.002-04:00

Knowing that you want to make a change in your life (professional or personal) is a good first step in making the change you want; but it is only a first step. Change requires us to get out of our comfort zone, build new habits and leave behind the old. Along the way, there is likely to be ambivalence.

As a first step in making change, assessment is generally the way to go. This can be a process of self-assessment (perhaps using a good reference book like What Can You Do With a Law Degree?) Some individuals decide to hire a coach in order to get support for making change.

Of course getting to the point where you even want to explore change can be difficult. So here is a tip from my own personal experience.

For two years, I've been wanting to lose some weight. I kept thinking about it and even took small steps to begin the painful process; but it wasn't until I found the right motivation that weight began coming off.

For me, it was the realization that I was going to have to purchase a lot of new clothing that got me motivated. As I thought more about how much money I would have to spend to replace my suits, dress shirts, etc., I became very motivated to slim down the waste line. I hate shopping for clothing and I hate wasting money on replacing things I already own; as a result, cutting down on the calories has become a lot easier for me.

So find the motivation you need to make the professional or personal change you are considering. Once the motivation is there, the first step will be much easier. Perhaps it is the realization that while law does suit you, litigation does not; or perhaps wanting more status at your firm can be the catalyst to get going with a marketing program. The point is to be reflective and know what you want from your career and from your life. With goals in place, the execution becomes much easier.

5 Marketing Rules for a Web 2.0 World

2009-10-03T12:11:00.002-04:00

Free Webinar on October 21st from 1:00-1:45 p.m. EST.

Does Talking on the Phone While Driving Really Increase Our Productivity?

2009-10-01T10:36:00.004-04:00

I'm growing more and more convinced that talking on the cell phone while driving is not only a dangerous behavior, but it is dubious that it increases our overall productivity. I submit that the best practice is to answer your calls while in the car (if you really think it might be an important call--i.e. an active or prospective client) and let the individual know that you will call them back shortly when you have a chance to pull over to the side of the road. That solves the problem of missing out on opportunity while not subjecting other drivers to our divided attention; and by the way, it also ensures that we are giving our undivided attention to our clients and client prospects.

Interesting article on the subject in today's NYTimes. Interesting discussion on the subject on WBUR on Tuesday.

Networks for Counsel Study and Miscellaneous Marketing Tidbits

2009-09-30T09:05:00.000-04:00

The latest Networks for Counsel Study was completed over the summer and the results demonstrate a number of important things for lawyers who are trying to build a practice. For starters, the study shows that networking remains a critical component of generating work for most lawyers (the study found that the top 3 most important methods of generating work involve some form of networking).

The study also shows that while in-person networking remains critical, for most lawyers, it is harder than ever to find the time to do it. Other highlights of the study include: the use of social networking has grown significantly in the last 12 months; Twitter is not being used much by lawyers (those who do use it post a lot); and counsel prefer lawyer only networks.

Here are some other miscellaneous marketing thoughts which I have been meaning to post for the past month:

· Consider that the average doctor interrupts patient after first 30 seconds (source, On Point Radio). As a lawyer, you can do better. Become a better listener and learn about unmet client needs.

· Over the summer, I participated in a webinar on social media that was sponsored by Martindale Hubbell, (LexisNexis Martindale-Hubbell were co-sponsors of the Networks for Counsel Study.) Here are a couple of tips that made a lot of sense to me: Think first impressions when you create your on-line profiles; In social media, you can be a leader if you start a discussion (though you may need to prime a discussion to get it going); If you do launch discussion, show your interests; follow your passions (best way to connect with others); invest early in building your network (before you need the help)

· And here is a random tidbit I picked up on twitter over the summer (my apologies for forgetting the source): Marketing is a one way conversation; sales is a two way conversation (my 2 cents: try to get a dialogue going—lawyers find one way communications most easy but dialogue = sales.)

My Prescription For Hard Times

2009-09-29T16:46:00.001-04:00

A self-published piece on my website.

Beyond Internet Marketing

2009-09-25T17:01:00.002-04:00

Good marketing can certainly help to build a professional services practice; but good marketing can only succeed when it supports business development. Put another way, marketing is a one way conversation; but selling professional services requires a two way conversation.

For many lawyers, it is much easier to focus on marketing than on business development. Lawyers are accustomed to crafting written messages. But having a great website alone, is unlikely to build the practice that you want.

50 Best Firms for Women (Out of 105)

2009-09-17T14:08:00.003-04:00

The American Lawyer raises some interesting criticism of the Working Mother magazine's "50 Best Law Firms for Women." I still applaud the magazine and Flex-time Lawyers for continuing to do the survey (it does keep the issue alive and force firms to at least think about the issue); but clearly this "study" does little to prove that things have improved for female attorneys (i.e. the study does not demonstrate one way or the other that during the recession, firms have become more willing to adopt better work/life practices).

Webinars as a Marketing Tool

2009-09-09T09:55:00.004-04:00

While it may be a little premature to endorse GoToWebinar (my first webinar using GoToWebinar is still 2 weeks away--i.e. Strategies for Commercializing Patent Assets in a Down Economy--a free webinar I am organizing and facilitating for my client IPEngine), my preliminary assessment is that this is a great tool for legal marketing.

With very minimal time input and very minimal expense, you can set up a relatively automated publicity and registration system for a webinar. The service allows you to record the webinar and even has automated e-mails that can be sent out to registrants who are unable to attend. You can conduct live polls during a presentation and the logistics for both audio and video participation are automatically generated and e-mailed to registrants--along with as many reminders as you care to send out.

I have yet to actually take the controls and navigate through several speakers, audience questions, etc. But unless something goes terribly wrong, I can say with great conviction that this is an excellent way for lawyers to "touch" their clients, client prospects and referral sources more frequently.

Extreme Job Hunting Has Ancillary Benefits

2009-09-04T10:14:00.002-04:00

Even in a good economy, if you stick with traditional job hunting techniques (responding to advertisements, contacting head hunters, sending out resumes cold), you are handicapping your job search. Many jobs are not advertised and most career experts will advise you that networking should be an important part of your process (for more on networking, see Tools for a Job Search on my website.)

But in a bad economy, networking is critical.

For lawyers who are conservative by nature (and who spend their days helping clients to avoid risk), doing anything out of the ordinary may seem ill advised.

Joann Lubin of the WSJ writes about some of the more extreme methods that other professionals have used to conduct a job search. While some of these techniques may in fact be inappropriate for lawyers, her article does demonstrate the value of thinking outside the box. None of the individuals cited in her piece found work through their unorthodox approaches; but each of them learned valuable lessons that were helpful to them in their search and in their career.

Is Specialization Good For Your Career or Your Firm?

2009-08-29T14:26:00.000-04:00

Only up to a point.

Legal Rebels Website Launched by ABA Journal

2009-08-29T11:34:00.003-04:00

Looks like a good place to find inspiration for making change in your own legal career. Here is a description in an e-mail I received about the launch:

Over the course of the next three months, we'll be profiling 50 of the profession's leading innovators at http://www.legalrebels.com . The first seven profiles, along with videos and audio slideshows that illustrate the changes they're trying to make in the practice of law, are now online. We'll be adding at least three new profiles to the site every week until Thanksgiving.

Some Good Tips for Managing Your E-mail

2009-08-26T09:26:00.002-04:00

From the blog Law Department Management. My own thoughts on the subject here.