Dave Travis Now

What IS Changing in the CHURCH

dave.travis@leadnet.org (Dave Travis) — Mon, 09 Nov 2009 06:47:23 -0800

(Long Post Warning) (and this was posted a few days ago over at learnings.leadnet.org)

This is the first part of my speech to the Cornerstone Knowledge Network. The speech was in four parts:

Things that ARE changing in the Church World

Things that AREN’T changing but some say they are

Things that AREN’T CHANGING YET but I think are coming

Things that SHOULD BE changing but don’t seem to be happening

Some caveats:

One, this is all my opinion based on my keyhole view of the world. Feel free to disagree.

My key hole that I see through involves lots of leaders of very large churches in US (and a few in Europe). The avg size for our clients is around 3700 in weekly attendance.

I believe that the things these churches deal with often set the tone and direction for other churches (for better or worse). So some will read my observations and say “that doesn’t apply to my church.” Fine by me. You may assign a particular point to another bucket. Fine with me.

My attempt with these lists were to help these business leaders whose livelihoods depend on working with churches be better equipped to deal with their challenges.

And part of this reflection is based on my comparisons to some notes from conversations with Senior Pastors of large churches 15 years ago. So they are “what has changed.”

So, Things that I think ARE CHANGING:

I am just going to touch on them here and if demand is great enough write a small booklet or a blog post on each one.

The rise of Multi Site churches – multi site changes everything as we say.
Social Media penetration – I read that 85% of Americans aged 18-29 logged onto at least on
on

e social media site in August 2009. That’s one month not year to date. I think widespread

adoption of this communication medium changed how we perceive leadership so I think it changes churches.
Internet Campuses – They’re here and they are about to be “in a box” so any size church can have one if the want. For some this will be a fad but for others this is going to be a big part of their reaching strategy going forward.
Growth of Teaching Teams – that is a big, accepted change from when I joined

Leadership Network almost 15 years ago. It’s almost like everyone wants to do it now while they may not know quite how to do it.
New Church Development by young 20/30s. People say this generation is not going to church. They are. They aren’t going to existing churches, they are flooding some new churches.
Online giving – this number continues to rise and some churches in Europe tell me that they get 80% of their giving through this channel. That is way above US. So I think eventually the number will rise. They tend to get it by automated draft by the way. Probably the most consistent way to get it.
The iPhone revolution of communications. Probably more accurately called the smartphone revolution with others now coming on market. How will we communicate in the future – lots being driven via these hand held devices. Pay attention to that.
Big change – Availability of appreciated stock . So what does that matter. Lots of gifts in the past came through that type of giving. When it ain’t around no more its hard to build an extravagant building. Might be a good thing.
Availability of home equity. Not as much as there used to be. Plus is that it is driving folks to be more fiscally responsible. My guess is that it might have some short term affects on churches in subtle ways.
More thinking of church “beyond the walls”. In Leadership Network language that means “Externally Focused Churches” being the best church FOR your community. (We have lots on this one)
Lots more multi racial churches (though perhaps not multi cultural churches). We have been tracking these numbers for some time. What this means? Well if you are in the building and advisement industry, (like these people are ) it means that the committee or team you are working with may have different assumptions within their own team to be worked through.
Mobility of Americans – I recently read how that total percentages were down. I attribute mobility factors as a big reason for megachurch attraction. If people aren’t moving at least 10 miles away as much, they tend to stay in their same patterns.
The book/magazine/church conference business – Anything print seems to be suffering so there is a big restructuring going on there. Also in the church conference business, there are going to be a few winners, a few that can survive and a lot that go under. So a restructuring there as well.

OK – that was the highlights of my first list.

Any to add?

Some may actually be on one of my other lists but I would love to hear your thoughts. Just hit the old comments button and send them in.

Dave Travis

Managing Director

Leadership Network

A blessing and a haunting

dave.travis@leadnet.org (Dave Travis) — Thu, 29 Oct 2009 16:43:43 -0700

The man on the left in this photo is my friend Peicho Muhtarov. Peicho lives and works in Bulgaria where he pastors and serves with the Bulgarian Bible League helping them to plant churches.

I got to know Peicho through our European Church Planting Network program we run at Leadership Network

I don't write about our European operation too much, but we have worked with two dozen or so churches and planting organizations over the past few years in our goal to help them catalyze 500 new churches. I will write more on that in the coming days.

Peicho came to Atlanta to share about his work in Bulgaria and I was blessed to go hear him last Sunday at Calvary Church in Dunwoody, Ga.

He had a great message and testimony.

(That is his wife Dede on his arm and another friend from the Bulgarian work who came along)

But something he said just haunted me.

We were talking about his calling and work and he said: "David, I had a friend who was an evangelist and preached to many in my country after the openness. (the fall of communism) And they responded and became believers. Praise God."

But then he added:

"But the churches were not able or ready to receive them. They could not handle such an influx of baby Christians and the harvest was mostly lost. I want to make sure that never happens again."

And that is the haunting feeling I have had since he told me.

I have often used that scenario as an exercise with American Church leaders. "What if God moved mightily in your region, and massive numbers of people were becoming believers....How would you have to change your current way of doing things to disciple them?"

Those questions, many times conducted within our various Leadership Communities help leaders to stretch their thinking to get to new ways.

But Peicho has lived it. And it haunts him. And me.

What about you?

Dave Travis

Managing Director

Leadership Network

50% of Today's Pastors will not retire as Pastors

dave.travis@leadnet.org (Dave Travis) — Thu, 15 Oct 2009 11:13:31 -0700

50% of today’s pastors will not retire as pastors - How can we reverse this?

Not sure we should.

@TomRHarper posted this on twitter today. Actually he just posted the first line, the second is my response.

Let’s just state for the record that Tom is an excellent church consultant, smarter and better looking than me. And I think I get the drift of his statement and he means – Some really good people are being run off from the pastorate and how can we reverse that trend?

Tom has agreed to post a response on his blog and when he posts that response I will amend this tweet. Please feel free to join in the comments on both blogs. I am posting this at davetravisnow.com, learnings.leadnet and Tom is over at Church Central I think.

But I also got to thinking about some of my friends that I went to seminary with that have “left the ministry” even though they really haven’t…….and that is where we need to expand our thinking.

So let’s get a few things out of the way.

Some pastors leave the ministry due to moral issues – I am not saying these should not be restored to ministry roles but some take a permanent leave after those circumstances. I doubt Tom is talking about this group.

Some pastors end up in jail for a variety of offenses. Hey I am not saying they can’t eventually serve again either (remember Paul and Martin Luther King Jr. did some jail time too).

Some mess up in other ways. Perhaps in their confusion about leadership models and what leadership is they split churches, cause division and carry a poor reputation with them and are unable to find (or plant) a church. Don’t think Tom is talking about those but hey, it does happen.

Some become professors at colleges and seminaries. Not for me I don’t think but they seem to find it fulfilling. Sure, they occasionally take an interim pastorate but I don’t think they consider themselves pastors.

Some become consultants, fund raisers, denominational servants, church builders, and other things in the “church related industry.” For many of these people, the new role brings great satisfaction. In fact they feel that God has uniquely equipped them for that role. I doubt Tom is talking about these folks but technically, they are no longer pastors. I know my own seminary considers me to have “left the ministry.” So does my grandmother, but I don’t feel that way.

I know multiple friends at smaller mission agencies and parachurch groups that took a key role to help that group expand its ministry. It’s not that they didn’t feel called to pastor, it’s just that they feel called to help those groups advance the kingdom outside the local church.

I even know of some pastors who have left to serve in the Private Foundation and charity world. Their skills for people development, vision casting and evaluation are highly valued. But they are not a pastor in the formal sense.

I know of some other pastors, who were great “successful” and prominent who entered another line of work. Some were related to family businesses where the whole of their clan needed their leadership. Some entered the teaching profession and have now teach in middle and high schools. Some did this for steady income or benefit reasons but most did it because they saw a great mission field that they felt they could serve. In their heart, they are somewhat still a pastor but just don’t serve in a formal church sense. I know a few that had family situations, such as a special needs child, that exited church leadership for the business world to better serve their entire family’s needs.

I know a fair amount of pastors who have gone into industrial, prison and military chaplaincy and have found that very fulfilling. I also know some that have become involved in the courts system and parole system. They still use their pastoral gifts to serve people but outside formal church structures. Have they left the ministry? Not in my mind.

I think the queasiness I have about Tom’s statement (in tweetable form mind you and he didn’t elaborate) is that I think our definition of “pastor” is too limited. My five-fold friends would say it is actually our view of the all the five fold ministries is too limited to “local church” as we have traditionally defined them.

I think the queasiness is also the assumption that I made that what Tom meant was “full time” or even “bivocational” pastors serving as lead pastor of a local church.

I just think there are lots of pastors who never serve a church and we probably don’t call them pastors. But we should. They have pastoral gifts and are exercising them to advance the kingdom.

Dave Travis

Managing Director

Leadership Network

30th Reunion Reflections Part 2

dave.travis@leadnet.org (Dave Travis) — Tue, 22 Sep 2009 14:46:58 -0700

Ok. Waiting on a plane again and have a few minutes to jot down notes again on my 30 th High School Reunion. This is mainly for the folks I went to high school with.

They say every good blog post has a visual but I left the camera at home with the photos so your imagination will have to do. I have seen some photos of the event on facebook which left me with two feelings.

1. Glad I don't have to explain some of those.

2. Kicking myself that I see people in the photos I didn't get to speak to personally.

So - folks like Karen Sands - who looks just as she did when we graduated. Anne Hall, Clark Nance and the like. I heard Liz Freeman was there and I missed her. Trish Wharff Evans calls it "Reunion Regret." She's right.

I did get to see some folks that I haven't seen in a long time. Folks like Ricky Morgan, Beth Reagin, and the like.

There was Kevin Cochran, who was to me the most enthusiastic reunion goer in the sense that he was excited to see everyone. He is back from a sojourn in Colorado and excited to be living in Rabun County now. We love Rabun County too and can't wait to connect with him at Rumor Haz It . I had not forgotten Kevin but had forgotten about his siblings which have given him numerous nieces and nephews.

I think the last time I saw Frank and Sally Hanna was the last reunion, though Frank and I had corresponded recently about his book.

I don't guess I had seen Danny Wine since High School. He used to be so skinny thin that he would go down the drain if you pulled the plug. He has filled out but looked much healthier in the face. I wonder if he still has a good tennis stroke like he used to?

I know I mentioned Craig Riley in my last post but his cousins Russ West and Eddie Price were also there. (As was their cousin Alison Lindsay Rhodes) It was good to see those cousins. So different and so alike at the same time.

Steve Hunter and I see each other fairly regularly and he is always good to send me news of former classmates as he gets it. His lovely wife Kerri, who I missed at the Smyrna celebration was also there.

I will save a few runnin buds for a later commentary but I will mention a few friends that were not there.

Jeff Holder wasn't there. Jeff is in California still in the Hollywood mix. I get to see him about every 18 months when I visit LA. He is still a great guy. I think I saw online he was leading a conference last weekend.

Thanks to the Facebook thing, I think many of us have connected to Mary Catherine Carson, who frequently comments on my page and twitter. I had hoped she would get to come down but saw that she couldn't. Somehow she is related to Mike Hatcher but I can't remember the connection.

OK - an etiquette question - In our High School days people went by different names - Tommy is now Tom, Jimmy is now Jim, Mike may now be Michael and so on. I get that, I go more now by Dave than David. So I hope I didn't offend anyone by calling them by their "old" name.

And finally I am asking about some old friends that I didn't see there and have no idea where they are, do you?

Where is Joyce Smith? She was yearbook and Homecoming Court and all that. Where is she these days?

And where is my friend Marlece Ellenburg? We used to play mixed doubles tennis and ping pong, dominating the Orris ping pong parties?

And where was Jon Fennell? a guy I have had some email contact with but haven't seen in a long while and whose brother I have in my Facebook friend deal but not Jon.

Anyone know?

Joe Lattanzi told me that he and Jeff Malone should start a collections business because they found almost everyone. Good for them. Good job guys.

OK, plane is calling. Praying for friends back in Atlanta. Saw photos of Brian Johnson's back yard and it looked really bad.

Reunion Reflections Part One

dave.travis@leadnet.org (Dave Travis) — Sun, 20 Sep 2009 12:57:57 -0700

Ok - this is more for my High School friends. The rest of you will have no idea what I am talking about.

The 30th Reunion was a big success. Thanks again to Michael, Joe, Jeff, Ruby, Dana and Trisha.

I have already seen photos of people that I had hoped to see but didn't get to see last night. Which is a bummer. But there were lots of great old friends I did get to see. And many I haven't seen in 30 years.

A few to start.

As I walked to the table I saw Chandra Trautman, who I have seen in the last year, but always good to see her. She reminded me that we sat next to each other from 6th grade on. Glad she made the trip from Orlando.

Doug Black looks better today than he did 30 years ago. How did he do that. I kept running into him last night and continued to marvel. I put Craig Riley in that category as well. Looks better now than ever. As my wife said - "you haven't aged as well as some of these people." What a great encouragement.

Bev Smyly is beautiful in every way as always.

Joe Lattanzi reminds me more and more of his dad. Of course we miss his dad, as does the whole community of Smyrna.

Ed Buckner (and his lovely wife Diane Jenkins Buckner) were there and he told me of his retirement last FRIDAY from the US Army. The Army has kept them young and Ed, thanks for your service to our country.

Jeff Malone says he has his whole family close to him and that fits right in with who Jeff as always been.

That reminds me that one person said that core personalities have not changed since high school. Which is a corrolary to my "life is just an extension of high school to most people."

So, Gary Orris' humor has not changed. Bret Redferns enthusiasm to dance didn't seem abated. Brian Johnson's sarcasm? Still there.

Enjoyed seeing friends from birth like Randy Shepherd, one of Smyrna's finest firefighters and hearing of his new baby. Mike Hatcher, another friend since birth, has twins on the way.

I was glad to hear of many of the parents of friends who are still kicking especially Ed Tinney's mom, who drove the school bus for many years.

Among those that had seen my facebook page they all wanted to know about my CNN appearance earlier this year. They didn't see it on TV, just on my page. Bill Black has a good friend that is an anchor there. Good to see Bill as I had seen his parents the week before at Grandma's 100th birthday.

One of the most distinguished looking guys there had to be Bernard Perry, now principal Perry apparently up in DC in a middle school. He doesn't have the hair he used to have but none of us do. That's especially true of my old buddy Andy McClure. But what Andy doesn't have in hair he makes up for in fitness. He told me he had pitched 10 innings of adult baseball in the last few weeks.

I miscalled a few names including one as I was walking out calling Gayle Bishop, Gayle Parker instead. Gayle and her brother lived up the street maybe 4 houses from us for years, The Parkers were at the end of the street), so upon review I was embarrassed. Of course some of these ladies have different last names now but I can't recall those.

More later as the plane wants to leave now.

Thank You FACEBOOK for the 30th High School Reunion

dave.travis@leadnet.org (Dave Travis) — Sat, 19 Sep 2009 07:53:33 -0700

Tonight is my 30th High School Class Reunion.

As far as I can tell, most of the connections have come via Facebook.

Like most my age I first connected to Facebook to watch my kid's pages. Now I am overwhelmed by following and watching my friends.

I am not the best at updating Facebook as I primarily use twiter @davetravis to just update my Facebook while my Facebook pro friends do all the photos and messages.

But I am looking forward to tonight. Those I have connected with on Facebook seem great. Lots have some beautiful grandchildren, photos of weddings and vacations.

I have very fond memories of my teenage years and rarely see any classmates. There are a few that live near my sister that I see on occasion. While we live just an hour away from where I grew up, and my parents still reside in the community, it just never happens that I see anyone.

For some folks High School was the best part of their life. While I certainly enjoyed it, each decade since has brought new enjoyments, potential and satisfaction.

I know that there are a few now gone on that I will miss. (Angie, Bill just to name a few)I know many that I will see I went to kindergarten, elementary school, middle school and high school and then never saw them again. I hope I can remember their names. Name tags please!

In the facebook photos I certainly recognize them and luckily their names are right there.

To be fair - I have aged, my hair has grayed, my weight finally went over 125, and I am just as bad a dresser as I always have been.

At my grandmother's birthday party last week I ran into my Senior Class homeroom and physics teacher who still lives in the area. I didn't get to speak with her but I understand that through her church she sees several of the school mates from that era.

I see photos this morning on Facebook from my classmates from a prereunion party last night that I couldn't make. And they look like they are having a good time.

I also hear from an old friend in Wyoming via FB (Hey Mary Catherine!) and several others that I certainly would not have found except through this technology.

So, thank you facebook. Thanks Tricia, Michael, Dana, Ruby, Jeff and Joe for organizing the festivities tonight.

"May your glory never lessen, and your courage never fail."

Grandma Turns 100 - Today!

dave.travis@leadnet.org (Dave Travis) — Fri, 11 Sep 2009 10:55:06 -0700

My grandmother turns 100 today - September 11.

Elsie Beech Travis Fitzgerald lives in Smyrna, Georgia now, near two of her children and in the same county another daughter.

She is not an old lady though.

Grandma still lives alone, still has a car (though she rarely drives now), and is very active.

I think she has stopped teaching swimming but still takes water aerobics. She teaches in the English as a Second language school. She used to play piano for the Childrens choir but they do music she has a hard time learning now. She teaches third grade Sunday School and is at church pretty much every time the doors are open.

In fact, a few years ago she cracked an important body part while teaching Sunday School. “I was turning around to lay a picture on a table and I just fell”.

At the hospital the doctor said – “well since you are 89 there is not much we can do.”

My aunt quickly let him know – “She is 99 and teaches swimming to stroke victims so you’d better get her fixed fast.”

After a few weeks of rehab she checked herself out of the facility because “they weren’t working me hard enough.”

God has blessed her life (and through her, my parents, and family blessed me as well).

She has five surviving children (one died as a baby), all educated, prosperous and happily married. My dad is the oldest and I am the oldest of her 13 grandchildren.

All of those in my generation are educated, prosperous and have good lives.

Her great grandchildren number around 23-25. I can’t keep track of all my cousin’s children. Grandma’s has 3 great grandchildren in college and several infants and all in between.

We are all fairly close to Atlanta area with a few exceptions and so we get to be with her often.

She has outlived many of her friends of her own generation including two husbands. A few years ago some of her last travel companions died.

Like many of her generation she enjoys watching “the Wheel” and “Jeopardy” on tv.

She enjoys the company of good friends, eating out, seeing her great grandkids, reading.

A few years back Jerry Falwell called me out on his TV program (he had his facts a little off) and while my friends were worried, grandma said “Jerry called your name on TV.” So she was proud that one of her favorite preachers knew who her grandson was.

So here’s to Grandma Fitz at 100. May God continue to bless her and her family.

What A Day at Mars Hill

dave.travis@leadnet.org (Dave Travis) — Wed, 19 Aug 2009 17:52:58 -0700

No, not that Mars Hill. I spent the day Sunday at two special occasions worth mentioning. I’ll share the first one here tonight – Mars Hill Baptist Church near Watkinsville, Georgia.

It was their 210^th church anniversary and I had never been there before and neither had my mother, but she wanted me to go.

An ancestor named PH Mell was being honored that day both in the church service and in an afternoon plaque dedication near his grave. My mom and dad are traveling so I was designated to go and bring a report.

Mell was an educator, pastor, denominational president, College president and Chancellor of the University of Georgia. A quick google will pull up many documents about his life.

As a young man I read his biography written by his son, that book is now online. Mell has enjoyed a revival of his reputation partly due to his hero status among the Calvinist wing of the Southern Baptist convention.

Mars Hill Baptist is a beautiful facility and very friendly folks. I felt most welcomed there and Pastor Charles Jenkins led a worshipful and inspiring service. The preacher for the morning was Dr. David Smith, president of Brewton-Parker College, a Baptist College in south Georgia.

Pastor Jenkins mentioned that Mell also had a small hand in helping start Georgia Tech so I will have to investigate further.

I can’t recall how exactly we were related to the Mell’s but there were several rows of direct descendants there and I was pleased to meet and share some stories with them. They all live in south Georgia.

I was also blessed by the music led by Mike Sarratt. It was one of the best blends of contemporary praise and classical hymns I have heard in a long time. In speaking to Mike after the service I discovered that he is the son of the late Ray Sarratt.

I knew Ray as a friend of my grandfather and during my college days occasionally attended a prayer meeting at the Baptist Tabernacle in downtown Atlanta. Ray was a former star Ga Tech football player but never mentioned those exploits instead encouraging me in my studies and ministry. Ray died last year and I was grateful to be able to express my condolences to his son. And he remembered my family mentioning those that had taught him in Sunday School over the years.

I also got to speak to the family of my old friend, the late Claud Healan. Claud was an Associational Missionary in a neighboring association back when I served the similar role at Stone Mountain Baptist Association. He was a great encourager to me, inviting me to speak at several events, helping to send massive volunteers to the disaster relief team and being an all around fun guy to hang out with. He died suddenly a few years after I started working with Leadership Network and I didn’t learn of his death until weeks later. I was pleased to express to his son, daughter and wife my appreciation of Claud.

I knew Claud had been a pastor at Mars Hill in his younger days and had lived nearby. I remember when their old church building burned in the early 1990s and speaking to him afterward. Sometime I will tell you that story but his parting comment was “You watch, God will use this to his glory.”

After a good lunch and chatting with several good folks I made my way into Athens to the grave site of Dr. Mell. The Georgia Baptist Historical Society had an afternoon ceremony to dedicate a plaque next to his grave marker. I didn’t get to stay for the actual ceremony but did speak with a member of the Historical Commission briefly, Dr. Stewart Simms, pastor of the Beech Haven Church in Athens. He said the honor for Dr. Mell was long overdue. Dr. Simms seemed like a great guy and I wished I had more time to speak with him, but I did thank him for his part in the memorial.

We sent our Firstborn to college today

dave.travis@leadnet.org (Dave Travis) — Thu, 13 Aug 2009 18:20:22 -0700

I took the day off today to move our daughter Stephanie into her dorm at Georgia Tech. She has now flown away.

She is very fortunate. All four of her grandparents went to college here in Georgia.

We have a special relationship with the Institute (the proper name - The Georgia Institute of Technology) I could start bragging about the school right now but instead will brag on the family.

Her maternal Grandfather went to Tech High School in Atlanta was bound for Ga Tech but the Army got him first at the close of WW II. He ended up at West Georgia playing football.

My dad graduated from Georgia Tech 50 years ago this year. It was a step out of poverty for his family, as he was the first in his family to receive a college degree. He later completed a masters degree there.

I started Georgia Tech 30 years ago this fall and like my dad, went into the Cooperative Education program that (then) had you work a quarter and go to school a quarter.
I graduated five years later.

My wife got her degree there. My brother did. His wife did. My sister and her husband went to a sister school. The core experience and education we received there has served us well. We are faithful in our giving to the Institute as a small thank you for the provision it has given us.

A lot has changed since we were all there but my daughter's dorm is right next to the one where I lived. (It was an old dorm when I was there and now it's 30 years older!)

Now we are sending "Ma Tech" one of our most important investments to hopefully encourage her to the next level.

Godspeed child.

My interview with Brother Dave

dave.travis@leadnet.org (Dave Travis) — Fri, 07 Aug 2009 13:22:12 -0700

I have a cousin visiting me today, Brother Dave the Revivalist. He is in town doing a revival somewhere around here. I let him listen in to our Leadership Network Team call today. There were lots of questions from my staff about Brother Dave so I did this interview with him to help give context. Unfortunately my camera is broken right now so I don’t have a photo to post.

What was the name of the church where you pastor?

I presently pastor the Big Sandy Baptist Church of God Holiness in Christ Tabernacle #2.

Is it a multi-site and that is why it is called “number 2”?

No we split from the Big Sandy Baptist Church of God Holiness in Christ Tabernacle #1 a few years ago and we wouldn’t want anyone to confuse us with those heretics down the street.

And what was the reason for the split?

It was over the doctrine of hairology. There are some deacons wives in that heretical church with bobbed hair.

And where is this church?

It is sort of near Hahira.

How are you related to Dave Travis, Managing Director of Leadership Network?

Well, you see my cousin and his cousin, but also……well it’s complicated.

Is your church a growing church?

Actually BSBCOFHICT #2, we use that to shorten the name, is growing. We started with 8 members, grew to 9 the next year, and then 10 and we presently have 11 on the rolls. But we suspect that one of those is also a member at #1 so we aren’t really sure how to count him.

And also we went down to the peanut gin and weighed on the truck scales when we started and have grown from 1283 pounds to almost a ton. Of course that includes our new members.

Was there anything about that call today that you learned about Leadership Network?

Yes, I fear so cousin. I was shocked that none of the staff chose the King James Bible as their favorite book for the summer.

I think that was because of how I asked the question today.

Nosir. I think all books are evil.

What about other translations of the Bible?

What do you mean? If the King James was good enough for Peter and Paul, it’s good enough for me.

Thanks for being with us today cousin.