Ex-Minister's Blog....Ministers that have left the faith!

I am converted ... to Reason ... By Jim Schoch

shokthegerman@gmail.com (Jim Schoch) — Tue, 14 Jul 2009 21:41:00 +0000

A Darren Wilson Film (and here is the description)

"Hundreds raised from the dead. Manna appearing in the Pentagon. Gemstones falling from the sky. Teenagers healing perfect strangers on the street. This isn't old time religion. This is a new beginning. A spiritual revolution. This is the Finger of God.

Prepare to go on a dizzying journey around the world - from the streets of Northern California to the mud huts of Africa; from the underground church in China to the Gypsies in Eastern Europe - you will be challenged and encouraged by the extraordinary things God is doing in our world today. Born out of filmmaker Darren Wilson's personal journey of two years and hundreds of hours of footage, Finger of God will show you a world you never knew existed. A world of hope and courage. A world where God's fingerprints are found in the unlikeliest of places."

Ummmmmmmmm ... If reason is the enemy of faith then I truly have converted to the side of reason ...

My dad dropped by this DVD the other day when my son Aaron was home but I was gone ... we (Aaron, Tammy and I) all watched it ... In the 1990's I embraced the contents of this type of belief/ministry hook, line and sinker ... ummmmm ... can not say that is true any longer ... Let me rephrase the above description in my understanding with my own perspective ...

"Hundreds say they have been raised from the dead with no real proof but boy do they love the white rich missionaries cameras,food and attention ... Manna appearing in the Pentagon is an outright scam of crumbled dry crackers put out for the mindless masses to believe and called Manna just like is in the bible .... Gemstones falling from the sky which can not be tested as to their geological content/make up ... ummm yeah give me some ocean front property in Arizona and let me sell it to you too ... Obnoxious teenagers trying desperately to heal perfect strangers on the street who are liking the camera rolling and playing along ... especially the scene of the mentally unstable lady who "got healed" ... and the person who got a new kidney (tell me another one)... This is the re-enactment of the stories of old time religion that have been greatly embellished along the way and exaggerated to the point of keeping the cash cow going in hopes of seeing this cool stuff happen for real ... Oh the hype of a revival just around the corner ... This is just the beginning of another generation of being gullible for the express purpose of a false hope of chasing gold dust that magically appears along with gold teeth fillings again unsubstantiated by any dentist and those darn gemstones and Manna from Heaven? ... Oh for ^!#*'s sake ... A nothing but dashed hopes type of revolution is in progress here folks ... This is the Finger of Man at it's most crazy point of which I can no longer stomach or chase in wild hopes of seeing a miracle or healing ... please do not check your brain at the door if you are given this piece of hype that was produced in hopes of cashing in at 20 bucks a pop by Darren Wilson who just can't seem to make an honest living any other way ..."

... and yes I do admit that I (James A Schoch) being of sound mind and body willfully and voluntarily confess to being, converted by reason ... which is said to be the enemy of blind faith where one is applauded if they check their brain at the door ... thanks for letting me vent here :)

Lodi, CA and the FFRF

webmaster@exminister.org (Brian Worley) — Tue, 14 Jul 2009 21:40:00 +0000

from Brian Worley

Lodi News-Sentinel on the council's prayer policy

I love Lodi, California! I lived there for quite some time and knew the religious community very well. So I wasn’t all that surprised to see that the town wasn’t so keen with the Freedom From Religion Foundation’s letter warning them about prayers in Jesus name.

Yes, that is the same town from the old Creedence Clearwater song “Lodi” with the most recognized refrain being “Oh, Lord! Stuck in Lodi again.”

I couldn’t forget my first day in town when I asked a cop for some directions. He asked me what I did, and I said “I was a minister.” He said “welcome to Lodi, we have 33 wineries and 33 churches…you will fit right in.” We both laughed. The town has quite a personality and is a bit stubborn. Just follow the link and you can see one of their first moves. They did some digging about FFRF’s financial records and put it in the paper!

This ought to be an interesting battle, the FFRF has disturbed a “buzzsaw.” Read the link and you will see Wiley Drake is already involved. When I lived in Lodi, they had one of the strongest John Birch Society chapters in the country. The Seventh Day Adventist churches there were some of the stronger ones in the country with some national figures having roots there. To boot, there are some factions that had some connections with Rushdoony before he died (Vallecito wasn’t that far away) and the theocrats that have eyes upon ruling the world! Oh, almost forgot that Cardinal Roger Mahony (now Archbishop of Los Angeles) came out of the nearby Stockton diocese.

Anyone see the “Deliver Us From Evil” movie? Elements from Stockton (10 miles away) and Lodi figure prominently in the storyline of perversion. If the FFRF prevails in a seeming little country town (as Drake calls it….actually 50K population) they will have added a nice feather to their cap!

Do we need another reason?

webmaster@exminister.org (Brian Worley) — Tue, 14 Jul 2009 14:55:00 +0000

clicking the above title will take you to Philip Ball's article upon the website

I became a big fan of Philip Ball upon reading his previous post concerning science and the Templeton prize money. Few writers would have the courage to tackle the subject like Phillip Ball did! There is a link to the article upon the website page. In my estimation, the best writers get you to think. Oftentimes, when reading their work you might not know where they are going to go because they aren't dogmatic. They are simply excelling in their trade because they are probing your thought processes along the way. I marvel when others see this as being soft or compromising upon truth. I look upon those same writers/articles and think that those that have this "gift" will reach a broader audience due to the lack of an agenda and the security of their viewpoint.

This article is the un-edited version of the "How Much Reason Do You Want?" that was published by Nature and later was challenged by Sam Harris. You could also find it upon Philip's blog (the link is on the website and article page).The article caused quite a stir in the rabid atheists community. Phil's Homunculus Blog has the article with the comments (I will leave it upon the front page in the science section.) I appreciate Phillip's level head and think he handled the rabid atheists pretty well!

It all comes down to a matter of degree and what one overall feels about religion. Although I respect both men, but I would side more with Ball's approach moreso than Harris'. I am a little surprised to see Harris push the issue as strongly as he did, especially since some think that he is a little "sweet" to Eastern religion. Sam Harris's Faith in Eastern Spirituality and Muslim Torture by John Gorenfeld

I post the article here because it is "Main Street" material for the website and it probes a question that all skeptics probably should wrestle with. I know in the past that my views have evolved somewhat to where they are now. Anyway, I've said what I have said here in hope that you would take the time to read it!

My Chains Fell Off Part II

webmaster@exminister.org (Brian Worley) — Tue, 14 Jul 2009 14:07:00 +0000

from Paul Benedict

Separation anxiety is a somewhat common experience for those that depart the faith. I found a sense of freedom but was very much in a world that I had not known before. The separation from the known to the unknown was very much akin to the Christian explanation of sanctification ... being positionally justified in Christ but still having to "work out with fear and trembling" that which had been accomplished by Grace! Happily, though, now I could work on what had been accomplished by reason.

I found that I was initially reticent about identifying with "worldly music"; the cinema; buying a Lottery ticket; giving place to expressing feelings about the Church; criticising the Bible, ideas about God, the devil et al. The shroud of evangelicalism's bogeyman did not slip off easily.

I discovered how ignorant I was of in situ situations: politics, social issues and everyday matters. Emerging from the cushioned capsule of religious propaganda, I had to face the realities of life without the spectacles of faith hampering my vision to see things as they were - rather than being the result of fallen sinful nature!

Being free to love and care for others without the obligation to use situations as "a means to and end - soul saving" enabled me to levels of greater respect and empathy. I was not the woodcarver who would have to fashion people to fit into a body of the Church (sic).

I was enabled to satisfy my voracious desire to read and do research outside the confines of having to omit and delete that which did not fit into religious paradigms - objectivity was enhanced.

Yes, indeed, my chains fell off!

Evangelicalism a bird's eye view

webmaster@exminister.org (Brian Worley) — Sun, 12 Jul 2009 21:21:00 +0000

clicking the title above will bring you to the website article from Paul Benedict

Do we have a treat for everyone today or what? Let me say how much I appreciate Paul Benedict's contributions to the blog and the website. Paul has a lot of depth in him, and it is evidently clear when you read this his Chapter 1 from his "Evangelicalism: Another Hallucinogenic"

Paul had spent 35 years in the ministry and knows the Bible VERY well! There is so much MEAT within this first chapter that Paul has been kind enough to share with the readers of this website. This is his second chapter that he has consented to share with us...the first being his Chapter 11 on Ethics (you can find the link on either the front page or along with this article.)

The contents of this chapter will certainly be news to many that have never been exposed to Evangelicalism's history. Some of this might actually stun you and help you to be able to place some loose pieces of history's puzzle together!

I have read with great interest Paul's book, you can see the review that I wrote upon it with a link on the page! Nobody decent would expect an author to give away their work, but Paul has been very gracious. Chapter's 1 & 11 are upon the website now, I hope that you will be intrigued enough to find out what he says from Chapters 2-7 which are VERY INTERESTING! You can get a copy of the book from your favorite bookseller or simply click the book icon upon the website to order it from Amazon.com!

Least of all, it would be very nice to see those of you that have read and appreciate his work to take a few minutes, stop what you are doing and sit down and type out a short paragraph or two expressing what or how it helped you! Everyone realizes that times are tough nowadays, but kind expressions don't cost you a thing and a little encouragement goes a long way! I hope you enjoy the article.....and express it as well!

Brian

All Religions are Bunk

webmaster@exminister.org (Brian Worley) — Sun, 12 Jul 2009 00:18:00 +0000

clicking the title above will take you to the website article by James Worrell

James Worrell is a lawyer from Oklahoma City, Oklahoma that retired as an FBI agent. He has been a life long atheist and a frequent contributor to the Ex-Minister website.

James is an excellent writer, note the links adjacent to this article for his other website posts. There is one article of his that is a wonderful episode of watching a lawyer come to the defense of bastards. The Bible stands no chance here, Worrell easily won the case! Now, if we could only get a judge to award damages to all of the "bastards" that the Bible has maligned!

Pastor reverts to sign language to keep the sheep in his pasture

webmaster@exminister.org (Brian Worley) — Fri, 10 Jul 2009 11:02:00 +0000

See the Gainsville Sun story: Pastor Defends Church Sign; A Professor Reacts

from Brian with a special thanks to Larry C. for sending this in

They wouldn't want the sheep to look upon another pasture, would they? To prevent this, Pastor Terry Jones has a sign placed upon the church's lawn to warn the sheep that the devil is lurking around! The sign reads "Islam is of the Devil."

Could it be that Pastor Jones is threatened by Islam's tremendous growth? He wouldn't want any of his tithes and offerings going into the wrong hands would he? Why couldn't he just say this message from his own pulpit to his flock in attendance? Could it be that some of his sheep have already strayed and that he is a little bitter?

Stating the obvious: Muslim's have problems with expressions of free speech. Why not just ignore the sign? After all, isn't it still a free marketplace for religion in America?

Aren't these religious "cat fights" a spectacle to behold? I have a feeling that Pastor Jones might not like the dosage of the "wrath of a God" that he will now have to deal with (albeit from a different God!) Why cannot the faithful just enjoy their: 1) god in the sky 2)their piece of the religious pie? May the God of peace be with you! Jones will need it as he faces the wrath of Allah!

Please see the reaction that the sign drew with this link: Church's anti-Islam sign protested

How did I get from there to here?

shokthegerman@gmail.com (Jim Schoch) — Thu, 09 Jul 2009 20:42:00 +0000

by Jim Schoch

That question has been asked a number of times ... I spent over 20 years in the church as a pastor and now that life is only a memory ...

The process began when a guest minister came and preached at our crazy charismatic church somewhere around 1989 ish? ... he was fun to listen to as he told a long story about a dog of his ... at the end of the story he paused and said he knew we were all expecting a spiritual application/punchline to end the story but he had none other than to tell us it was OK to tell a story just because it was a good story ...

Well that was unexpected in our church since we were the super spiritual tongue talking crazy charismatics that always took ourselves very seriously and did much more shouting and hollering and tongue talking than we did laughing or enjoying life ... but that little story really was the beginning of a journey for me as I began to question everything from that point on ... from what I know, that man (Dudley Hall) is still in the ministry and may be still telling fun stories to tell church people to lighten up and enjoy life ... and if he is then good ...

But as I began questioning what I was involved with on a daily basis I found that the more I took that simple message to heart the more strange a place the church became for me ... without going in to a lot of detail I will zoom all the way to year 2000 when I stepped away from the pulpit in order to really enjoy life and my family ... I do not regret that decision at all ... I find myself enjoying people as never before and feel like I am just now discovering who I am as a person ...

Life is funny that way and I am lucky that this weekend marks the 28th wedding anniversary of my lovely wife Tammy and I who started out much different (Mennonite/Charismatic) than we are now but never have felt closer to each other and have both evolved together into who we are today ...

A Peace Loving People

webmaster@exminister.org (Brian Worley) — Wed, 08 Jul 2009 09:37:00 +0000

from Bill Henness

When the Hebrew god, Yahweh, told Israel to go into the land of Canaan and kill all the people and take the land for themselves; if this tribal god was all knowing, he would have known there was, at least, one city there that were peaceful people.

The tribe of Dan, wanting to expand their territory, sent 5 spies into the land, to see how well fortified it was.

"Then the five men departed, and came to Laish, and saw the people who dwelt therein, how they dwelt without anxiety(carelessly), after the manner of the Sidonians, quiet and secure; and there was no magistrate in the land, who might put them to shame in anything; and they were far from the Sidonians, and had no business with any man." (Judges 18:7)

"When ye go, ye shall come unto a people secure, and to a large land; for God hath given it into your hands, a place where there is no want of anything that is in the earth." (v. 10)

"And they took the things which Micah had made, and the priest which he had, and came unto Laish, unto a people who were quiet and secure; and they smote them with the edge of the sword, and burned the city with fire." (v. 27)

If this god knew all things, he would have known these people of Laish were no threat to them. They were peace loving families. They didn't even have or need a police force, for there was no crime. They had no trade with other cities and were self-sufficient. Their nearest neighboring big city (Sidon) was about 35 miles across the mountains to the northwest.

This city of families had everything they needed. Children played in the sunshine, men planted, fished, harvested; women kept the house and raised big families.They probably didn't even have weapons. They didn't bother anyone and I imagine they lived much like the Amish do today; simple, peace loving.

Then, on command of the Hebrew god, armed men of Israel, swooped in upon these peaceful people and cut them down like unarmed stalks of corn. Men, women, old, young, infants, all.

And you are expected to worship this "kind, loving, heavenly father." Not me !

Bill Henness

Rescuing Steve McNair from Hell

webmaster@exminister.org (Brian Worley) — Sun, 05 Jul 2009 23:47:00 +0000

From Brian

A link to the Steve McNair story Steve was a former NFL Quarterback and a potential Hall of Famer

If one were to type the following question into an internet search “ Was Steve McNair a Christian?”; one could easily come to the conclusion that he didn’t speak out against Christianity. In fact, he had held annual football camps at Goodpasture Christian School for at least eight years in Nashville. So it isn’t a stretch to conclude that Christianity played a role in his life.

Excuse me for being so direct here, but I do not want to get into what his position on the deity was. I have no way of knowing; I just want to rescue him from hell is all!

See it doesn’t matter what his belief system was, if indeed he was an adulterer and if the Bible is true he would certainly be in Hell by now! Doesn’t matter how many good things the man did, Jesus will see to it that he will be tortured forever without end! The thought horrifies me!

Do you remember the scene from “The Green Mile” where the twisted prison guard kept pressing the electrocution switch and enjoyed watching the horrible sight? What makes God any better than that guy? Talk about overkill, Steve McNair dies at age 36 and God will still be listening to cries from Hell in 2050 from whoever entered into it lately.

I read one blog that mentioned that if he were faithful to his wife, he would still be alive today! Well, I don’t know about that but when a well known public figures dies before “their time” consciousness is raised and people start to talk! Now what I am saying here will probably stir the emotions of people. Some Christians would express that an adulterer deserves Hell. While others rationalize their Christian revelation out of their consciousness because they don’t want to think or talk about it.

They don’t want to discuss it, BUT I DO! Hell is a warped, twisted concept that decent human beings should condemn! “King David” was an adulterer, but since he was a “man after God’s heart” he gets a free pass to Heaven. Adulterers today don’t have that luxury according to the Bible; they’re going straight to Hell! What a difference 2,000 years makes as well as illustrating that the New Testament is more severe in judgement than the OT was in certain matters.

I have made no judgements upon Steve McNair, but I hope to have made a few people think and to rescue him from the Hell that some fundies will want to place him in!

A few errors, contradictions and false prophecies

noreply@blogger.com (Bill Henness) — Sun, 05 Jul 2009 22:32:00 +0000

Two and twenty years old was Ahaziah when he began to reign,... (11 Kings 8:26)

Forty and two years old was Ahaziah when he began to reign,... (11 Chron. 22:2)

Jehoiachin was eighteen years old when he began to reign,...(11 Kings 24:8)

Jehoiachin was eight years old when he began to reign,..(11 Chron. 36:9)

And they came to Ophir, and fetched from there gold, four hundred and twenty talents,..(1 Kings 9:23)

; and they went with the servants of Solomon to Ophir, and took from there four hundred and fifty talents of gold,... (11 Chron. 8:18)

And David took from him a thousand chariots, and seven hundred horsemen, and twenty thousand footmen; (11 Sam. 8:4)

And David took from him a thousand chariots, and seven thousand horsemen, and twenty thousand footmen;..(1 Chron. 18:4)

For he cast two pillars of brass, of eighteen cubits high apiece;..(1 Kings 7:15)

Also he made before the house two pillars of thirty and five cubits high,..(11 Chron. 3:15)

These were the leaders of the officers that were over Solomon's work, five hundred and fifty,..(1 Kings 9:23)

And these were the chief of King Solomon's officiers, even two hundred and fifty,..(11 Chron. 8:10)

And Solomon had four thousand stalls for horses and chariots,..(11 Chron. 9:25)

And Solomon had forty thousand stalls of horses for his chariots,..(11 Kings 4:26)

Beside the chief of Solomon's officers who were over the work, three thousand and three hundred,..(1 Kings 5:16)

, and three thousand and six hundred to oversee them. (11 Chron. 2:2)

These were the sons of Levi after the house of their fathers; even the heads of the father's houses, as they were counted by number of names, who did the work fro the service of the house of the LORD, from the age of twenty years and upward. (1 Chron. 23:24)

This is it that belongeth unto the Levites: from twenty and five years old and upward they shall go in to wait upon the service of the tabernacle of the congregation;..(1 Num. 8:24)

Now the Levites were numbered from the age of thirty years and upward;..(1 Chron. 23:3)

Either three years famine;..(1 Chron. 21:12)

, shall seven years of famine come unto thee in thy land? (11 Sam. 24:13)

And the LORD said, As my servant, Isaiah, hath walked naked and barefoot three years for a sign and wonder upon Egypt and upon Ethiopia, (Isa. 20:3)

For he took away the altars of the foreign gods, and the high places, and broke down the images, and cut down the idols, (11 Chron. 14:3)

But the high places were not taken away out of Israel; nevertheless, the heart of Asa was perfect all his days. (11 Chron. 15:17)

; moreover, he took away the high places and idols out of Judah. (11 Chron. 17:6)

Howbeit, the high places were not taken away;..(11 Chron. 20:33)

Thou art of purer eyes than to behold evil, and canst not look on iniquity;..(Hab. 1:13)

The eyes of the LORD are in every place, beholding the evil and the good. (Prov. 15:3)

And in the beginnings of your months ye shall offer a burnt offering unto the LORD: two young bullocks, and one ram, seven lambs of the first year without spot;..(Num. 28:11)

And in the day of the new moon it shall be a young bullock without blemish, and six lambs, and a ram; they shall be without blemish. (Ez. 46:6)

HEZEKIAH He trusted in the LORD God of Israel; so that after him was none like him among all the kings of Judah, nor any that were before him. For he clung to the LORD, and departed not from following him, but kept his commandments, which the LORD commanded Moses. (11 Kings 18:5,6)

JOSIAH And like him was there no king before him, who turned to the LORD with all his heart, and with all his soul, and with all his might, according to all the law of Moses; neither after him arose there any like him. (11 Kings 23:25)

Now the name of his first-born was Joel;..(1 Sam. 8:2)

The sons of Samuel: the first-born Vashni,..(1 Chron. 6:28)

; and he slew him at Megiddo, when he had seen him. (11 Kings 23:29)

; and they brought him to Jerusalem, and he died,..(11 Chron. 35:24)

And when Saul inquired of the LORD, the LORD answered him not, neither by dreams, nor by Urim, nor by prophets. (1 Sam. 28:6)

And (Saul) inquired not of the LORD: therefore, he slew him,..(1 Chron. 10:14)

By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac; and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son. (Heb. 11:17)

And Hagar bore Abram a son: and Abram called his son's name, whom Hagar bore, Ishmael. (Gen. 16:15)

And Abraham called the name of his son that was born unto him, whom Sarah bore to him, Isaac. (Gen. 21:3)

But unto the sons of the concubines, whom Abraham had, Abraham gave gifts, and sent them away from Isaac, his son,..(Gen. 25:6)

And God saw everything that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. (Gen. 1:31)

I form the light, and creat darkness; I make peace, and create evil; I, the LORD, do all these things. (Isa. 45:7)

..Therefore Saul took a sword, and fell upon it. And when his armorbearer saw that Saul was dead,..(1 Sam. 31:4,5)

..; therefore, he(God) slew him,..(1 Chron. 10:13,14)

So I stood over him, and slew him, because I was sure that he could not live after he was fallen. (11 Sam. 1:10)

, Jehoshaphat being then king of Judah,..(11 Kings 8:16)

; all these were the sons of Jehoshaphat, king of Israel. (11 Chron. 21:2)

And the whole earth was of one language, and of one speech. (Gen. 11:1)

By these were the borders of the nations divided in their lands; every one after his tongue, after their families, in their nations. (Gen. 10:5)

And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl

that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven. And God created great sea monsters, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly,..(Gen. 1:20,21)

And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air;..(Gen. 2:19)

..Behold, at my rebuke I dry up the sea, I make the rivers a wilderness; their fish stink, because there is no water, and die for thirst. (Isa. 50:2)

And Joshua burned Ai, and made it an heap forever,..(Josh. 8:28)

The men of Bethel and Ai, an hundred twenty and three. (Neh. 7:32)

The wicked have laid a snare for me; yet I erred not from thy precepts. (Ps. 119:110)

I have gone astray like a lost sheep...(Ps. 119:176)

All fowls that creep, going upon all four, shall be an abomination unto you. But all other fowls that creep, which have four feet, shall be an abomination unto you. (Lev. 11:20,23)

Let the day perish in which I was born and the night in which it was said, There is a man child conceived. (Job 3:3)

An altar of earth thou shalt make unto me,..(Ex. 20:24)

And thou shalt make an altar of shittim wood,..(Ex. 27:1)

And Israel bowed himself upon the bed's head. (Gen. 47:31)

By faith Jacob, when he was dying, blessed both the sons of Joseph, and worshiped, leaning upon the top of his staff. (Heb. 11:21)

, then sent Jesus two disciples, saying unto them, Go into the village opposite you, and straightway ye shall find an ass tied, and a colt with her; loose them, and bring them unto me. (Matt. 21:1,2)

And Jesus, when he had found a young ass, sat upon it,..(John 12:14)

, they came unto the sepulchar at the rising of the sun. (Mark 16:2)

The first day of the week cometh Mary Magdalene early, when it was yet dark, unto the sepulchar,..(John 20:1)

And the men who journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man. (Acts 9:7)

And they that were with me saw indeed the light, and were afraid; but they heard not the voice of him that spoke to me. (Acts 22:9)

, Verily I say unto you that ye who have followed me,..., ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. (Matt. 19:26)

..For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. (John 6:64)

And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit, and, having said this, he gave up the spirit. (Luke 23:46)

When Jesus, therefore, had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished; and he bowed his head, and gave up the spirit. (John 19:30)

Your gold and silver are cankered (rusted), and the rust of them shall be a witness against you,..(James 5:3)

And they stripped him, and put on him a scarlet robe. (Matt. 27:28)

, and they put on him a purple robe, (John 19:2)

And Jesus answered and said, Verily I say unto you, there is no man that hath left house, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my sake, and the gospel's, but he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the age to come eternal life. (Mark 10:29,30)

I will open my mouth in a parable; I will utter dark sayings of old, which we have heard and known, and our fathers have told us. (Ps. 78:2,3)

That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world. (Matt. 13:34,35)

And seeing a fig tree afar off, having leaves, he came, if perhaps he might find anything on it; and when he came to it, he found nothing but leaves; for the time of figs was not yet. (Mark 11:13)

And said, Whare have ye laid him? They said unto him, Lord, come and see. (John 11:34)

Now are we sure that thou knowest all things, and needest not that any man should ask thee;..(John 16:30)

.., but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire. (Matt. 5:22)

Ye fools and blind;..(Matt. 23:17)

Then he said unto them, O fools, .(Luke 24:25)

.., be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do. (Luke 12:4)

After these things Jesus walked in Galilee; for he would not walk in Judaea, because the Jews sought to kill him. (John 7:1)

, how they might destroy him. But when Jesus knew it, he withdrew himself from there; (Matt. 12:14,15)

Therefore, they sought again to to take him; but he escaped out of their hand, (John 10:39)

, there came unto him a centurion, beseaching him,... and Jesus saith unto him,..(Matt. 8:5-13)

And when he heard of Jesus, he sent unto him the elders of the Jews, beseeching him that he would come and heal his servant. And when they came to Jesus, they besought him earnestly,... the centurion sent friends to him,..., neither thought I myself worthy to come unto thee;..(Luke 7:1-10)

And as they came out, they found a man of Cyrene, Simon by name; him they compelled to bear his cross. And when they were come unto a place called Golgotha,..(Matt. 27:32,33)

And they took Jesus, led him away. And he, bearing his cross, went forth into a place called the place of a skull, which is called in the Hebrew, Golgotha. (John 19:16,17)

, behold, there came a certain ruler, and worshiped him, saying, My daughter is even now dead;...(Matt. 9:18,19,23-26)

; and he fell down at Jesus' feet, and besought him that he would come into his house. For he had one only daughter, about twelve years of age, and she lay dying. (Luke 8:41,42)

And if ye will receive it, this (John) is Elijah, who was to come. (Matt. 11:14)

And they asked him, What then? Art thou Elijah? And he saith, I am not. (John 1:21)

Bill Henness

Family Evolution

shokthegerman@gmail.com (Jim Schoch) — Sun, 05 Jul 2009 02:19:00 +0000

Just wanted to say it is great to have had my wife and 3 grown children, (two of which are married and my baby just turned 21) all on the same page with me as we all have evolved together since surviving our church days/daze ... Life is good this July 4th 2009 :)

On Bishop's Accountability

webmaster@exminister.org (Brian Worley) — Sat, 04 Jul 2009 19:40:00 +0000

from Michael Murphy

I am so disgusted with the Catholic Church, the Bishops and the Pope's.

This scandal is as bad as the ones in the Middle Ages. I am so confused
about the faith, that I am not sure where I stand as far as faith goes.

I know what St Francis says but the blood guilt of the pristine bride of
Christ; is incomprehensible.

There is no docility in the Bishop's to accept consequences for their
misconduct. Just continual denial and shifting of blame; and the absurd
statements, e.g. "I got my wires crossed, that's why I did this." Or "he
must have had a stroke and that is why he did what he did."

How can anyone in the Catholic Hierarchy expect anyone to accept their
authority? The only thing that seems to be consistent with priests and
bishops is the proclivity to condemn one to hell, if one should show any
resistance to their absurd behavior, or speak out concerning their
hypocrisy.

The preoccupation with sex in theology and catechetical teaching, is
unhealthy, and damaging to the psyche of the "human person" .

Mortal Sin has no meaning in my opinion. The Bishops are guilty of it 1000
x's over, and yet they want to lecture us on Virtue.

I guess shifting the blame to homosexuals for sex abuse in the priesthood,
and continued focal, pro-active antiabortion activity, clouds the landscape
so, that they hope no one will notice the real danger hidden in the fog;
predatory priests, spiritually (emotionally) abusive Bishops, and
non-interested Popes.

I for one am not attending church and finding it difficult to believe..Judge
me if you will, I am probably just a misguided, proud and unrepentant
sinner. I guess things don't change much, do they?

Respectfully,

Michael

Disillusioned but I love the Christians who are part of my life

webmaster@exminister.org (Brian Worley) — Sat, 04 Jul 2009 07:29:00 +0000

from Michael Murphy

The claims of fundamentalist's and orthodox theologies; are based on untenable propositions. The first proposition I want to talk about is the infallibility of the Bible.

Acts 1: 8-12

8 But you shall receive the power of the Holy Ghost coming upon you, and you shall be witnesses unto me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea, and Samaria, and even to the uttermost part of the earth. 9 And when he had said these things, while they looked on, he was raised up: and a cloud received him out of their sight. 10 And while they were beholding him going up to heaven, behold two men stood by them in white garments.

11 Who also said: Ye men of Galilee, why stand you looking up to heaven? This Jesus who is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come, as you have seen him going into heaven. 12 Then they returned to Jerusalem from the mount that is called Olivet, which is nigh Jerusalem, within a sabbath day's journey.

Luke 24: 47-51

47 And that penance and remission of sins should be preached in his name, unto all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. 48 And you are witnesses of these things. 49 And I send the promise of my Father upon you: but stay you in the city till you be endued with power from on high. 50 And he led them out as far as Bethania: and lifting up his hands, he blessed them.

49 "The promise of my Father"... that is, the Holy Ghost, whom Christ had promised that his Father and he would send, John 14. 26, and 17. 7.

51 And it came to pass, whilst he blessed them, he departed from them, and was carried up to heaven. 52 And they adoring went back into Jerusalem with great joy.

You only need one contradiction to disprove the idea of infallibility. The preceding passages demonstrate such a contradiction.

I have heard it said and I have said it myself that the discrepancies are not a problem because they don’t undermine the message as a whole.

However, the claim of infallibility has to do with Inspiration. In other words God infused knowledge infallibly, into the minds of the writers of Scripture. There is the claim that word for word, the Bible is accurate. Then due to the glaring discrepancies in the Bible the Fundies have had to qualify it by saying that the Bible is infallible in the original languages, not the translations; which is a major intellectual jump to nowhere; in that there are no extant original documents. Conclusion: We just trust these Doctors of Theology, because they say it is so.

Of course not only are the Scriptures lacking continuity, in fact; the interpretations of said Scriptures are many and varied. So one preacher is pitted against another, one church against another, one Christian against another with no end in sight.

Where does that leave me? I can only speak for myself.

I have experienced many powerful answers to prayer. I cannot ignore it, I cannot forget it; I have to process through it. I don’t know what category these experiences belong in. But I have simplified the main goal of my life; that goal is to be compassionate, however that plays out.

For me the teachings of Jesus and the Jewish Scriptures on Compassion, challenge me to be a better person. I have experienced the joy of judging people by first putting myself in their shoes. I try to live by the maxim, that everyone is trying to do their best to be a good person. Oh I have experienced evil, oh yeah, but in the evil, I have found wounded souls; who do not know how to be, how to speak, how to live, without fear and anger. I try to bring healing and peace to these souls.

My daughter was 12 when she was assaulted in my home by an invasion of several Black youth. It was horrific; thankfully neither my son nor I were there because someone would have probably been killed. Her nose was broken; she was bruised all over as she had been kicked all over, mercilessly as they circled her curled up body on the floor, all the while she was pleading for mercy. I will never forget her phone call to me at church. It was a Sunday. I answered the Church phone and Kris is crying, “they beat me up Daddy.” I said nothing to my wife or anyone, I ran to my motorcycle and raced home. I will I ever forget seeing her all battered and bruised and bleeding in the fetal position, on the living room chair, all alone, reaching to me crying, “Daddy.” You can imagine the chaos that followed as my son and I went hunting for people we knew nothing of. They had just been in the neighborhood for a few hours that day. I cannot explain the degree of rage, mixed with helplessness that I felt at that moment. It still moves me deeply, I dare not think on it too much. ……

We did not know the offenders and the police said that if we did know them they could only charge one of them with trespassing and that was about it. Needless to say I was enraged.

To make a long story short: I was a visiting preacher at the local county jail; and on one occasion I talked about forgiveness and told the story of my daughter. I was broken inside and I was not sure if I was really in forgiveness mode; but after the talk the inmates came up to shake my hand and one of them grabbed my hand and attempted to pull me aside, which I resisted. He then said to me, “ That was me that attacked your daughter.” He told me later that he expected me to punch him; I hugged him; boy was it hard.

It turns out his father was a Black Panther and was into the occult. He himself was taught to hate white people. I asked him on a subsequent visit if he thought he could forgive the white in me; and he said, “If you could forgive what I did to you, I can forgive you. We cried. I prayed for him. He actually tried to participate in the chapel services. He raised his hand to speak one night and all he could say was, “ I ..I…I’m here” Someone else said, “ amen.” He just had so much pain inside. He was trying to believe that anyone could actually love him, and especially God. I was unable to keep up with him, and later he was let out of jail. Not too long after, at a friends house, for no reason he shot a young man in the stomach as the young man sat on a couch. The young man died and the shooter is in for hard time…..hard time.

It still pains me to see the effect on my daughter’s emotions; she is 28 now; but the pain of that experience has not left her, and it has not left me.

I am still greatly offended by evil, e.g. Child molestation, murder, etc. etc. but life is not as simple as I once thought it was. I cannot allow myself to let evil destroy my peace. I have spent most of my life as a Firefighter/Paramedic and a Pastor of an Inner City Church. I have been to more funerals than I care to count; and I have seen it all and I still cannot get my mind around murder; it makes no sense to me: but I also know that I can only ‘be.’ I cannot change the world, or people. I can love them however; and that takes grace and I don’t know where it comes from; except to say that I value compassion, therefore it is a permanent part of who I am.

As for the Bible and infallibility; it is a moot point for me. There are bigger issues.

Michael Murphy

Power, Prestige and the Riverside Pulpit

webmaster@exminister.org (Brian Worley) — Fri, 03 Jul 2009 22:21:00 +0000

from Brian

See the fascinating USA Today story: Pastor quits Riverside Church after 2 months…PS: I promise you (especially secularist’s) that a little digging here in some religious history will be beneficial to you….you should read the links!

No pun intended, but Riverside Church is rich in history! For a church that doesn’t change pastors THAT often, it was strange to see Rev. Brad Braxton out after only two months! He was only the 6th senior minister in the history of the church.

Who knows what really happened? But it probably had something to do with power. Let us look at this section of the USA Today story:

Betty Davis, a Riverside member who was on the committee that selected Braxton, told Religion and Ethics Newsweekly recently that "as soon as his name was announced, the attacks started. One of the things that some people are afraid of is that the church will turn black. And, you know, I really resent that."

Braxton's evangelical and scripturally focused preaching was also an issue, which some saw as a threat to Riverside's open and inclusive reputation.

I would think that Betty Davis' view probably has merit and that the real issue was about the direction of his preaching. This seems to say (in my opinion) that a more scripturally toned direction of their pulpit just wasn’t welcomed (fundies lost a battle here)!

I want to draw attention to perhaps one of the most influential liberal Christian minister's of history that once occupied the Riverside pulpit. Some of the old time preachers today will still rail against the deceased liberal minister, Harry Emerson Fosdick of the famed Riverside Church that John D. Rockefeller Jr. helped to build on Manhattan's Upper West Side in 1927. Fosdick was front and center in the fundamentalist/liberal struggle within Christianity!

I want you to see a portion of Wikipedia’s clip about Fosdick and one of his more important sermons:

While at First Presbyterian Church, on May 21, 1922, he delivered his famous sermon “Shall the Fundamentalists Win?”, in which he defended the modernist position. In that sermon, he presented the Bible as a record of the unfolding of God’s will, not as the literal Word of God. He saw the history of Christianity as one of development, progress, and gradual change. To the fundamentalists, this was rank apostasy, and the battle lines were drawn.

I wish I were privy to an “establishment” conversation pondering the direction of Christianity. If I had a say, I would say that John D. was correct with choosing the visionary liberal Fosdick over those today that seem to emphasize the fundamentalist brand of Christianity. Fosdick

“presented the Bible as a record of the unfolding of God’s will, not as the literal Word of God.”

I would go as far as saying that if Fosdick’s brand of Christianity were prevalent, the world would be a much better place today! Christianity zigged when I think they should have zagged! Who knows, but I probably wouldn’t see the need to blog or have my website today; it is the fundamentalist’s that largely give Christianity the bad name today because everything is based upon their interpretation of scripture rather than Fosdick’s!

Hindsight they say is 20/20; I can only speak for myself but the big gripe that I have with Christianity is for all the negative, destructive things that happens under it's name. Usually this has a fundamentalist behind the scene of the crime like Falwell, Robertson, Terry, Phelps, etc. etc. The chickens have come home to roost as they say....please pass this on to the next clergy member that cries out against the secular humanist attack upon religion! John D. was right!

I hope someone else found this clip interesting?

1994's GOP aka...The Pleasure Police

webmaster@exminister.org (Brian Worley) — Fri, 03 Jul 2009 20:00:00 +0000

from Brian
See the Yahoo story:House of Pain: GOP's Class of 1994

The 94 Christian GOP class has so vividly illustrated what I had written about in “The Pleasure Police.” That is that sexual suppression brings tension and afterwards a heightened passion to consume what is withheld.

Reminisce with me if you will. Do you recall the GOP’s outrage with Bill Clinton’s sexual escapades rolling out the red carpet for the 1994 GOP’s “Contract with America?”

The 92 Presidential campaigns had Buchanan & Robertson addressing Christian themes at the Republican National Convention with Bush criticizing Democrats for omitting God from their platform.

The link provided above has proven that “God” didn’t help the Republicans and since Clinton & the Democrats didn’t rub God in our faces; we won’t address their peccadilloes here! This also goes to show the efficacy of the “power of prayer.” The suggested prayer of Lord “lead us not into temptation” (sexually) has resounded into “be sure your sin will find you out” for the Republicans! Perhaps they should have left God out of the equation altogether! They make a great case for the desirability of secular politicians rather than the “saints!”

Getting closer to home: it seems to me that when the faithful ask for “divine intervention” or protection over your libido; your really saying that your shirking responsibility for a potential rendezvous you have in mind!

While I think a secular dominated society is more desirous than a religious one; I prefer to see Christians living up to their faith because the world would be a better place if they did! Humanist’s accept responsibility for their actions while Christian’s ask for divine help with theirs. Doesn’t the 94 class of the GOP illustrate that: 1) their God went AWOL 2) it is about time for secular humanists to run for office 3) prayer is ineffectual…especially in the political arena 4) That Matt. 7:1 “Judge not, that ye be not judged.” This is one verse where Jesus makes sense in the secular world!

Pete Stark made history by becoming the first member of congress to go on record as a nontheist. What that really means is that God is “on the hook” for all of the rest of congress. Think of it this way: Every time a politician has ethical question issues…are we going to need to start asking “God, what happened?” I hope you see my point!

You will have peace shortly

noreply@blogger.com (Bill Henness) — Wed, 01 Jul 2009 23:46:00 +0000

from Bill Henness

Paul was in Corinth when he wrote the epistle to the Romans. The year was the winter of 57 A.D. Among other things, he said,

"And the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly." (Rom. 16:20b)

This statement (written 57 A.D.), assures the Roman Christians that the persicutions they were induring would stop shortly, and they would enjoy peace. However, let me quote at length from "World Religions from Ancient History to the Present," edited by Geoffrey Parrinder, pp. 429,430, under Relations between Church and State.

"There were constant outbreaks of mob violence against Christians in Asia Minor and in Rome, because they refused to attend the games (owing to their religious associations) or to worship the Roman gods. They met secretly for worship at night--men and women, behind closed doors -- hence charges of immorality and incest. It was rumoured that they partook of the blood of newborn babies -- hence charges of cannibalism -- and they were militant proselytizers. The Roman historian Tacitus accused them of 'hatred of the human race', and, when the mad Emperor Nero set fire to Rome in A.D. 64, he diverted attention by making the Christians into the scapegoats.

There was severe persecution in Rome and the vicinity, in the course of which Peter and Paul are said to have perished. Domitian (A.D. 96) also persecuted the Christians. So did Marcus Aurelius (161 - 180) and other Emperors, but these were sporadic persecutions and in the intervals of peace the Church grew in strength and numbers, penetrating all strata of society, including the imperial household, until it became 'an empire within the empire.'

In 249 Decius became Emperor. The one-thousandth anniversary of the founding of Rome stirred him to re-establish the ancient worship of the Roman gods, to reunify the empire and so to instigate the first empire--wide systematic persecution of the Christians. Bishop Fabian of Rome was executed in Jan. 250 and the see of Rome was vacant for fifteen months. Bishop Cyprian of Carthage and Bishop Dionysius of Alexandria went into voluntary exile, direcing their diocese from secret headquarters. Many Christians stood fast (the confessors); many conformed to the state religion by taking part in sacrifices or burning incense before the statue of the emperor (the lapsed.) There were many martyrs. When the persecution ended in June 251 with the death of Decius, the Church had to deal with the problem of the read mission of the lapsed, and a serious split occurred between Pope Stephen of Rome and Cyprian and the North African Church. Renewed Persecution. During the renewed persecution under the Emperor Valerian in 258, Cyprian was beheaded. Thereafter the Church endured peace for nearly sixty years, during which many half-converts joined the Church, until the final and most severe persecution under the Emperor Diocletian (284-305), who issued a series of edicts designed to stamp out the Christian scriptures, the clergy, and finally the leity as well. Terrable suffering was endured by the Christians, especially in the eastern part of the empire, until Constantine the great defeated the Roman usurper Maxentius at the battle of the Milvian Bridge in 312."

So, it seems that Paul made a false prophecy in 57 A.D., when he told the Roman Christians that, "The God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly." Unless 'shortly' means about 255 years (from 57 A.D. to 312.)

Bill Henness

Cool Kid Produces my first Miracle!!!

shokthegerman@gmail.com (Jim Schoch) — Wed, 01 Jul 2009 12:07:00 +0000

from Jim Schoch

"Hey, Take it easy!", I hollered down the hall of our little condo ...

The doors swing very freely and Aiden (Our Grandson) had just slammed it shut with all his might ... and then the first miracle that ever happened in my life occurred ;) ...

Tammy (my wife) said he put the lid down on the bathroom pot and just sat there ... when she asked what he was doing he said he was taking a Time Out ... now that is some kind of self-regulating bona-fied Miracle going on there I tell ya ...

Back in the day, I laid hands on hundreds of people to see one (miracle) and all I got was a sweaty palm from it all and a whole lotta nothing but hair-jel, and sweat of the brow in return for those efforts ... Maybe I should have just put a leather lazy-boy chair on the stage and just shouted at the people as they came by in the prayer-line "Hey, Take it Easy!" ... probably would have done more good and might have shocked a few into taking a self-regulating time out of some sort that would have calmed their souls like no other form of prayer has ever done ...

Come to think of it, IF I ever get back into the ministry it would have to be the first ever Lazy-Boy recliner-rocker church ever ... everybody would get their own Lazy-Boy to sit in and I would just Holler HEY TAKE IT EASY and just like that, the sermon and prayer time would be over before anybody could fall asleep ... well maybe that's what they call a nursing home ministry where everybody sits in those chairs ...

But I would at least try out a church service if they offered a leather lazy-boy service option complete with cup holders and food menu that you could just text in to the kitchen staff to bring you while you rested from your weary work week and a real healing took place in your body and mind as you marveled at the Miracle of a church that actually cared enough to give you a comfortable chair and a snack for the effort you put out to attend the service ... ya know kinda like the airlines used to do? ...

But now I am only dreaming and once again will return to reality since that will never happen ... what was I thinking ... crazy how a grandson can get you believing in miracles eh?

Anyhow, when Aiden decided his Time Out was over, he came out he gave Opa (german for Grandpa) a high-5 and all was forgiven ... and if laughter brings any healing here ya go :)

I Am Angry ...

shokthegerman@gmail.com (Jim Schoch) — Mon, 29 Jun 2009 18:32:00 +0000

from Jim Schoch

I watched a video today on YouTube that was called Jesus Camp ... I found it disturbing that many in the charismatic church actually think this is great and the fact that I once bought into it hook line and sinker ...

Basically I think I would rather send my kids to Camp Quest ... yeah you can google Camp Quest ... I really found myself getting angry the longer the Jesus Camp video played ... you can google that one too ...

I hate pressure from sales people and especially religious sales people preying on young kids ... the innocent kids just wanted to do what was right and yet I know from experience that all it produces is emotionally damaged kids that have so much to work through as they grow up normally, let alone heaping on the religious baggage that I saw being dumped on them in that Jesus Camp video ...

I have a fine 2 year old grandson that hopefully will never have to wade through the sewer of guilt and shame that the church is handing out like free candy to kids these days ...

In addition to telling kids to stay away from strangers, I am in favor of telling kids to stay away from Strange Church people who masquerade as concerned and helpful adults offering the treat that takes you to heaven but in reality it is the garbage that will make your life a living guilt-ridden hell that strips you of who you really are as a human being and turns you into a zombie that can only parrot the inappropriate responses that were programed into you the moment you accepted the fake candy that you were offered when your conscience was innocent and suggestible ...

grrrrrrrrrrrrrr ... I think I have just blown a gasket and need to be HEALED by a shot or 2 of Jack, Jim or Johnny now and take an hour to enjoy a nice fat cigar ...

ps ... yes that is me in that picture

A cute little blind boy

webmaster@exminister.org (Brian Worley) — Sun, 28 Jun 2009 22:59:00 +0000

from Bill Henness

I used to work with a man, Jim Conkler and he had a son he named Jamey. I saw Jamey, oh maybe once a year or so. Just the other day I met him in Wal-Mart, and he was pushing a little 2 year-old boy in a stroller. I noticed the cute little tike had closed and deep set eyes. I motioned to Jamey, pointing to my eye, about him. He said, "Yes, he was born blind." I talked with him for a little while and we parted.

I got to thinking about that poor little blind feller. Born blind from birth and will be blind all the rest of his life. How cruel. When the Hebrew god was talking with Moses at the burning bush, he supposedly said;

"And the LORD said unto him, Who has made man's mouth? Or who makes the dumb, or deaf, or the seeing, or the blind? Have not I, the LORD?" (Exodus 4:11)

According to this verse, the Hebrew God makes the blind and the seeing. Why would a kind, loving heavenly father make a little boy born blind and will never see? That is cruel.
I suppose some believers will say something like "God's ways are past finding out", or "God has something special planned for him". These are nothing more than cop outs. If a God made him born blind he was cruel.

A believer becomes an apostate

webmaster@exminister.org (Brian Worley) — Sun, 28 Jun 2009 22:53:00 +0000

from Bill Henness

Can a born again believer ever become an apostate? I don’t mean just falling into some sin and backsliding while still in their heart still believing in God, Jesus, and the Bible. I mean a sincere believer who believed the Bible like a little child. Even preaching and pastoring, teaching, witnessing, winning souls, evangelizing. Then, because of errors, contradictions, etc., in the Bible he found, pursued searching for more (neg. Truth), until he no longer could believe the Bible as he once did, became critical, agnostical concerning the Bible, and looses, for the most part, his faith. However, still attending Church regularly, separated, etc., not practicing any sins.

The five stages

When a Christian is first exposed to the fact of "errorance" of the Bible, they manifest much the same symptoms that a terminally ill person does when told of their fate.

1. Denial. (Becomes defensive)

2. Depression. (Don’t want to hear or think about it, withdrawal.

3. Anger. (Angry at the one who showed errors) "Why me?"

4. Bargaining. (Searching to prove wrong---)

5. Acceptance. (Becomes liberal, agnostic, atheistic, or apostate)

These manifestations are not identical, but similar.

A sign from heaven, please

webmaster@exminister.org (Brian Worley) — Sun, 28 Jun 2009 22:43:00 +0000

from Bill Henness

Can you really believe what Jesus of Nazareth said? If, after you finish reading this, you have doubts as to whether you can believe this one thing, just think of the hundreds of other statements made by Jesus.

"And the Pharisees came forth, and began to question with him seeking of him a sign from heaven, testing him. And he sighed deeply in his spirit, and saith, Why doth this generation seek after a sign? Verily I say unto you, there shall no sign be given unto this generation." (Mark 8:11,12

Now, this statement, recorded by Mark, is pretty clear. There shall no sign be given., However, this is not the end of the subject. According to John there were many signs done to confirm who Jesus was, to that generation.

"And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book; but these (8) are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name." (John 20:30,31)

John only records eight signs, however between Matthew, Mark, and Luke there are around 29 other signs that were given.
Then after Jesus was gone from the scene there were many more signs given to that same generation.

"And they went forth, and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen." (Mark 16:20)

Peter preached that God confirmed Jesus with signs.

"Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know." (Acts 2:22)

Luke also says the signs were done by the disciples.

"And by the hands of the apostles were many signs and wonders wrought among the people..." (Acts 5:12)

"Then Simon himself believed also; and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and was amazed, beholding the miracles and signs which were done." (Acts
8:13)

Then if this were not enough conflicting testimony, Jesus himself gave a conflicting statement to his original statement, according to the writer of Matthew.

"Then certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying, Master, we would see a sign from thee. But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign, and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet, Jonah; for as Jonah was three days and three nights in the whale's belly, so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth." (Matt. 12:38-40)

Freedom Isn't Free: Real Patriotism & the 4th of July

webmaster@exminister.org (Brian Worley) — Thu, 25 Jun 2009 19:54:00 +0000

by Jim Worrell

THE 4TH OF JULY
Have you ever wondered what happened to the 56 men who signed the Declaration of Independence?

Five signers were captured by the British as traitors, and tortured before they
died. Twelve had their homes ransacked and burned. Two lost their sons serving in the Revolutionary Army; another had two sons captured. Nine of the 56 fought and died from wounds or hardships of the Revolutionary War. They signed and they
pledged their lives, their fortunes, and their sacred honor.

What kind of men were they?
Twenty-four were lawyers and jurists. Eleven were merchants, nine were farmers and large plantation owners; men of means, well educated, but they signed the Declaration of Independence knowing full well that the penalty would be death if they were captured. Carter Braxton of Virginia, a wealthy planter and trader, saw his ships swept from the seas by the British Navy. He sold his home and properties to pay his debts, and died in rags. Thomas McKeam was so hounded by the British that he was forced to move his family almost constantly. He served in the Congress without pay, and his family was kept in hiding. His possessions were taken from him, and poverty was his reward.

Vandals or soldiers looted the properties of Dillery, Hall, Clymer, Walton, Gwinnett, Heyward, Ruttledge, and Middleton.
At the battle of Yorktown, Thomas Nelson, Jr., noted that the British General Cornwallis had taken over the Nelson home for his headquarters.
He quietly urged General George Washington to open fire. The home was destroyed, and Nelson died bankrupt.
Francis Lewis had his home and properties destroyed. The enemy jailed his wife, and she died within a few months.
John Hart was driven from his wife's bedside as she was dying. Their
13 children fled for their lives. His fields and his gristmill were laid to waste. For more than a year he lived in forests and caves, returning home to find his wife dead and his children vanished. Some of us take these liberties so much for granted, but we shouldn't.
So, take a few minutes while enjoying your 4th of July holiday and silently thank these patriots. It's not much to ask for the price they paid.

Remember: freedom is never free!

I hope you will show your support by sending this to as many people as you can, please. It's time we get the word out that patriotism is NOT a sin, and the Fourth of July has more to it than beer, picnics, and baseball games

NOTE: Thanks for sending this my way Jim! To newer visitors to the blog or site, you should read every article that Jim has sent to the website! Jim's writing always stirs me! Few people in the world have the ability to clarify and bring one to the point of making a decision upon a matter as quickly as Jim does! His articles are always welcomed here!.....Brian

Did Prophets Speak as Moved By Their God?

webmaster@exminister.org (Brian Worley) — Wed, 24 Jun 2009 21:42:00 +0000

from Bill Henness

The second most important scripture to fundamentalists and their faith is:
"Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not at any time by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit." (II Pet. 1:20,21)

First, a word of explanation. Because of the context of these verses, it is only referring to prophecy, and not every word in the entire Bible, as most fundies say. And also, the context shows it is only speaking of prophecy in the O.T.; the N.T. not having been written yet.

This work will show, to anyone who will reason, that many of the "prophecies" that were spoken (or written) by "holy men of God", could not have spoken "as they were moved by the Holy Spirit", because their prophecies did not come to pass, thus making them false prophets.

The examples I will give are only a fraction of the false prophecies. Also, I will not give the more lengthy ones. My knowledge of history is limited so I will show only the false prophecies that I remember from history.

1. The prophecy
"Thus saith the LORD, the God of Israel, Go and speak to Zedekiah, king of Judah, and tell him,... and thou shalt not escape out of his hand, but shall surely be taken, and delivered into his hand; and thine eyes shall behold the eyes of the king of Babylon, and he shall speak with thee mouth to mouth, and thou shalt go to Babylon... thou shalt not die by the sword, but thou shalt die in peace; and with the burnings of thy fathers, the former kings who were before thee, so shall they burn odors for thee, and they will lament thee, saying, Ah lord!: (Jer. 34:2-5)
What actually happened?
"So they took the king (Zedikiah) and brought him up to the king of Babylon at Riblah; and they gave judgment upon him, and they slew the sons of Zedikiah before his eyes, and put out the eyes of Zedikiah, and bound him with fetters of brass, and carried him to Babylon." (II Kings 25:6,7)
"... and put him in prison till the day of his death." (Jer. 52:11)
They could not have honored him with burnings because all the princes were killed, most of the people carried away to Babylon, and only a few poor left in the land. Beside this, Zedikiah was the one that caused all this by not obeying the king of Babylon. How could he have died in peace?

2. The prophecy
"... He shall build an house for my name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever... And thine house and thy kingdom shall be established forever before thee; thy throne shall be established forever." (II Sam. 7"11-16)
"... David shall never lack a man to sit upon the throne of the house of Israel.: and, "Neither shall the priests, the Levites want a man before me to offer burnt offerings, and to kindle meat offerings, and to do sacrifice continually." (Jer. 33:17,18)
What actually happened?
There were 600 years from the time of the last king of Israel (Zedikiah) until the time of Jesus, (if you say Jesus was David's successor), when David did in fat, "lack a man to sit upon the throne of the house of Israel", beside this, since the time of Zedikiah there have been no "priests to offer burnt offerings, and to kindle meat offerings and to do sacrifices continually."

3. The prophecy
"Therefore, thus saith the LORD of Jehoiakim, king of Judah, He shall have none to sit upon the throne of David;..." (Jer. 36:30)
What actually happened?
"So Jehoiakim slept with his fathers; and Jehoiachin his son, reigned in his stead." (II Kings 24:6)

4. The prophecy
"Look upon Zion, the city of our solemnities; thine eyes shall see Jerusalem a quiet habitation, a tabernacle that shall not be taken down; not one of it's stakes shall ever be removed, neither shall any of it's cords be broken." (Isa. 33:20)
What actually happened?
In 70 A.D., Titus completely destroyed Jerusalem.

5. The prophecy
"..., O Jerusalem, the holy city; for henceforth there shall no more come into thee the uncircumcised and the unclean." (Isa. 52:1)
What actually happened?
Continually, for thousands of years, uncircumcised and unclean people have come into Jerusalem, even to this day.

6. The prophecy
"And God said unto him, Thy name is Jacob: thy name shall not be called anymore Jacob, but Israel shall be thy name: and he called his name Israel." (Gen. 35:10)
What actually happened?
Throughout the rest of the Bible, Jacob is called by his name "Jacob", 240 times. Even at his death, his old name, "Jacob", is used.

7. The prophecy
"For this is like the waters of Noah unto me; for as I have sworn that the waters of Noah should no more go over the earth, so have I sworn that I would not be wroth (angry) with thee (Israel), nor rebuke thee." (Isa. 54:9)
What actually happened?
Isaiah said this in the 8th. Century B.C., however, in the 7th. Century B.C., Jeremiah, Habakkuk, Nahum and Zephaniah: in the 6th. Century B.C., Ezekiel, Obadiah, Haggai, Lamentations, Daniel and Zechariah; in the 5th. Century B.C., Malachi; and in the 1st. Century A.D., Matthew, Mark, Luke and John; all have God angry and rebuking Israel.

8. The prophecy
"And I (God) will encamp about mine house because of the army, because of him that passeth by, and because of him that returneth; and no oppressor shall pass through them any more; for now have I seen with mine eyes." (Zech. 9:8)
What actually happened?
This prophecy was made in the 5th. Century B.C. There have been many oppressors pass through Israel since then.

9. The prophecy
There is a lengthy prophecy about the total destruction of the city Tyre, by Ezekiel. To save time and space I will give only the important parts.
"...; I will also scrape her dust from her, and make her like the top of a rock." (Ez. 26:3,4)
"..., like the cities that are not inhabited;..." "That thou be not inhabited;..." "...; and thou shalt be no more; though thou be sought for, yet shalt thou never be found again, saith the LORD God." (Ez. 26:19-21)
What actually happened?
"..., and they about Tyre and Sidon, a great multitude, when they had heard what great things he did, came unto him." (Mark 3:8)
"..., and sailed unto Syria, and landed at Tyre;..." (Acts 21:3)

10. The prophecy
"And Joshua burned Ai, and made it an heap forever, even a desolation unto this day." (Josh. 8:28)
What actually happened?
700 years later.
"Howl, O Heshbon, for Ai is spoiled; cry, ye daughters of Rabbah, gird yourselves with sackcloth; lament, and run to and fro by the hedges; for their king shall go into captivity, and his priests and his princes together." (Jer. 49:3)
200 years later still.
"The men of Bethel and Ai, two hundred twenty and three." (Ezra 2:28)

11. The prophecy
"And this man shall be the peace, when the Assyrian shall come into our land; and when he shall tread in our palaces, then shall we raise against him seven shepherds, and eight principle men. And they shall waste the land of Assyria with the sword, and the land of Nimrod in the entrances of it; thus shall he deliver us from the Assyrian, when he cometh into our land, and when he treadeth within our borders." (Micah 5:5,6)
What actually happened?
No one delivered Israel from the Assyrians. In fact, the Assyrians took back to Assyria most of the people and left only a few poor there. The 10 tribes of Israel were completely dissolved and lost their identity completely.

12. The prophecy
"... Behold, Damascus is taken away from being a city, and it shall be a ruinous heap." (Isa. 17:1)
What actually happened?
According to the Encyclopedia Britannica, Damascus, which is one of the oldest cities in the world, has been continuously inhabited and is the only city in Palestine that has never been completely destroyed. Never has it been a ruinous heap.

14. The prophecy
"And now art thou cursed from the earth,...; when thou tillest the ground, it shall not henceforth yield unto thee it's strength; a fugitive and a vagabond shalt thou be in the earth." (Gen. 4:11,12)
What actually happened?
"And Cain went out from the presence of the LORD, and dwelt in the land of Nod,... And Cain knew his wife;... and he builded a city,..." (Gen. 4:16,17)

15. The prophecy
"And of Naphtali he said, O Naphtali, satisfied with favor, and full with the blessing of the LORD, possess thou the west and the south." (Deut. 33:23)
What actually happened?
Naphtali's land portion was given to her in the north eastern location of Israel.

16. The prophecy
"And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; he shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel." (Gen. 3:15)
What actually happened?
This is supposed to be a prophecy of Jesus and Satan. Satan, if he exists, is just as strong today as ever.

17. The prophecy
"The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me, unto him ye shall harken." (Deut. 18:15)
What actually happened?
Christians believe Jesus was that prophet. When did the Jews harken to Jesus? They still do not.

18. The prophecy
"But when they persecute you in this city, flee into another; for verily I say unto you, ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the son of man be come." (Matt. 10:23)
What actually happened?
Nothing!

19. The prophecy
"And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me." (John 12:32)
What actually happened?
Not all are drawn to Jesus; millions haven't even heard about him.

20. The prophecy
"For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, so shall the son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth." (Matt. 12:40)
What actually happened?
Start with Sunday morning before day brake, and count back three nights and three days. Jesus was allegedly crucified on Friday and buried before sundown.

21. The prophecy
"Verily I say unto you, there are some standing here, who shall not taste of death, till they see the son of man coming in his kingdom." (Matt. 16:28)
What actually happened?
Nothing in 2,000 years now.

22. The prophecy
"Verily, verily, I say unto you, he that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do, because I go unto my father." (John 14:12)
What actually happened?
No one has done all, or in part, the works that the Bible reports Jesus having done, much less greater works than those.

23. The prophecy
"And the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly." (Rom. 16:20)
What actually happened?
The Christians in Rome suffered intense persecutions until 312 A.D. That's 255 years of persecution. Several generations lived and died without seeing peace. Shortly? Ha!

24. The prophecy
"Behold, I come quickly;..." (Rev. 3:11) "Behold I come quickly..." (Rev. 22:7) "And, behold, I come quickly,..." (Rev. 22:12) "He who testifieth these things saith, Surely, I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come Lord Jesus." (Rev. 22:20)
What actually happened?
Nothing! The word "quickly" means shortly, I.e. without delay, soon. (# 5035) in 2,000 years now he has not come.

25. The prophecy
"And whatever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the father may be glorified in the son. If ye shall ask anything in my name, I will do it." (John 14:13,14)
"And all things, whatever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive." (Matt. 21:22)
What actually happened?
You do not get whatever you ask for. It is not done. You do not receive whatever nor all that you ask for. It is a lie.

These are only 25 false prophecies, although there are many more, these should show that the ones who gave the prophecies were false prophets, and that they were not so "holy", and that there was no holy spirit moving them to speak.

Bill Henness

Paganism & the Wiley bunch at the SBC

webmaster@exminister.org (Brian Worley) — Wed, 24 Jun 2009 12:49:00 +0000

from Brian

read the Ethics Daily article:
Southern Baptists Meet to Combat Membership Malaise

The good ole boys from the Southern Baptist Convention are at it again! Seems they cannot find a reasonable explanation about why they are losing their people! But, I'm sure they will get the answers when they pray about it (sic)!

Am I the only one that seemed to notice that they decided to open their convention on one of the biggest pagan days of the year June 23rd? I’m referring to the Summer Solstice! Nah, this couldn’t just be a coincidence? After all these guys are like “hawks” on guard against paganism or anything else that threatens faith!

They booted out the Broadway Baptist Church of Ft. Worth Texas after 125 years of patronage for being gay friendly. This occurred without any discussion amongst the 8,000 that were gathered in Kentucky. Although this isn’t surprising coming from a stone cold hearted convention with all of their history; I shouldn’t be surprised that we heard of no reported discussions of votes to kick out Wiley Drake and his First Southern Baptist Church of Buena Park, California! You might recall that this “reverend” prays for the death of President Obama and isn’t shy to violate scripture by letting the public know about it via the media!(read the Ethics Daily article:)
Pastor and Former SBC Vice Pres Prays for President's Death

What a lousy bunch of depraved human beings within the SBC that doesn’t stand against pedophilia; winks at prayers for the death of the American president; and hatred against gay people! Sure wouldn’t want to have an SBC tithe payer living in my neighborhood!