Fiona Kelly is the founder of Executive PA Forum, Ireland’s only L&D platform for EAs, PAs and business support professionals.

In this episode of The Leader Assistant Podcast, Fiona talks about the changes she has seen in the executive support industry since launching her first summit in 2010, her process for hiring trainers, and more.

LEADERSHIP QUOTE

A good leader inspires people to have confidence in the leader; a great leader inspires people to have confidence in themselves.

– Eleanor Roosevelt

CONNECT WITH FIONA

• • Fiona on LinkedIn
  • www.executivepaforum.com
  • www.missjonesgroup.com/ie

ABOUT FIONA

Fiona Kelly is the founder of Executive PA Forum, Ireland’s only L&D platform for EAs, PAs and business support professionals.

With a background in conference production and events, she co-founded Miss Jones Ireland – a venue-finding agency that also serves the profession helping to find the right venues and suppliers for their meetings,conferences and events. She manages both businesses in Ireland with her sister Aisling.

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EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

00:00 Fiona Kelly
Hi there, my name is Fiona Kelly and my favorite leadership quote is a good leader inspires people to have confidence in the leader. A great leader inspires people to have confidence in themselves and that is from Eleanor Roosevelt.

00:20 Intro
The Leader Assistant podcast exists to encourage and challenge assistants to become confident, game-changing leader assistants.

00:36 Jeremy Burrows
Hey friends, welcome to the Leader Assistant Podcast. It’s your host, Jeremy Burrows, and this is episode 383. Of course, you can check out the show notes at leaderassistant.com/383.

00:49 Jeremy Burrows
Today, I’m very excited to be speaking with Fiona Kelly. Fiona is the founder of Executive PA Forum, Ireland’s only leadership and development platform for

01:02 Jeremy Burrows
EAs, PAs and business support professionals. Fiona, welcome to the show.

01:07 Fiona Kelly
Thanks for having me, Jeremy. It’s such a pleasure to be here.

01:10 Jeremy Burrows
Yeah. And so you’re in Ireland. Are you in what part of Ireland are you in?

01:18 Fiona Kelly
I am in Dublin at the moment.

01:20 Fiona Kelly
I’m from a town called Carlow, which is about an hour south of Dublin. And, yeah, we have a lovely open space office here.

01:31 Fiona Kelly
So it’s, yeah, it’s lovely to drop in and out when I can. I’m on the road a lot, out and about a lot. So, yeah, it’s great to be in the office today and chatting to you.

01:40 Jeremy Burrows
Awesome. What’s your favorite thing to do when you’re not working?

01:44 Fiona Kelly
Oh, I love Zumba.

01:46
Yeah.

01:47 Jeremy Burrows
Zumba. That’s like one of those exercise things, right?

01:50 Fiona Kelly
It is. It is. It’s my favorite exercise to do. Yeah, I don’t really like going to the gym except for the classes. I love those kind of, you know, high energy activity classes with lots of music. And I just, yeah, I love walking and tennis and TV and, you know, all those kind of things when I’m not working on my business and just spend a lot of time with friends and family other than that.

02:19 Jeremy Burrows
That’s great. That’s great.

02:22 Jeremy Burrows
Tell us a little bit about your career, your experience, you know, your background. And then, you know, fast forward to today with what you’re doing now and how you got here.

02:36 Fiona Kelly
Sure. So I did a degree in business and law at University College Dublin.

02:45 Fiona Kelly
And I actually did the degree thinking that I would go down the legal route. But while I was studying, I realized, oh, this is a lot. It’s a lot of studying, continuous learning, you know, and all of that. So I kind of veered more towards the business end of things. And once I graduated, I just thought, OK, I’ll just get a job. I’ll just take any job. just to get started and I actually started my career in recruitment and that gave me a great grounding in sales and managing my own desk and obviously communicating with people and networking and everything like that so I loved that side of it and I really loved business but there was always kind of a niggle at me because I did have a lot of events when I was working in or when I was studying in UCD I was you know member of a few different societies and sports clubs so I always kind of had this niggle about getting into events.

03:40 Fiona Kelly
And when I went travelling to Sydney, I did a couple of years in recruitment and then I went travelling to Sydney and I worked there for almost two years. And I had the opportunity to work in recruitment there, but I got offered a job elsewhere. in a conference production company. So that was going to be, you know, putting conferences together across a range of different topics like what I had studied in my degree, you know, management, accounting, blended learning and HR. And so one of the conferences that we did there was for executive assistants. And so I just, you know, I got to actually learn about the role as I was doing those conferences.

04:21 Fiona Kelly
And I didn’t quite work so much on the event management side of the events at that time, but it was always something that I kind of wanted to explore further when I got back to Ireland. So when I did come back from Sydney, I ended up setting up my own events business and I started working on client events like, you know, fundraisers and conferences and workshops and things like that. But at the same time, I also founded the first executive PA conference in Ireland.

04:54 Fiona Kelly
And there was nothing like it. There’d been a couple of events, you know, that had run up until that point. This was back in 2010.

05:03 Fiona Kelly
But there was nothing else. And so, like, we got a great response when we started. I say we now have to introduce my sister, Aisling, who I work with in the business, who founded Executive PA Forum with me. All those years ago, she was just coming out of college and had studied HR and business as well. So it was a nice, you know, it was good timing and everything like that. And over the years, I suppose what happened was it just evolved. You know, the executive PA training just evolved. You know, I started working with other trainers in the UK and the US. And it actually got to the stage where I let go of my event clients and I started working just focusing on the executive training and courses. So that’s how executive forum came about and was born. And so now we have our platform for members there and the executive summit is our annual

06:00 Fiona Kelly
flagship conference that we have um it’s two days a year and everyone always says oh could you do another one in six months and i’m like oh it’s too much work all together and like if i knew that i’d get you know that about 100 people would sign up straight away i’d be like yeah let’s do it but it’s just that thing you know yourself with the role how demanding it is to try and get days out of the office and all the rest of it um

06:27 Fiona Kelly
is tough. So that’s kind of what actually led me to starting the Executive PA Forum. And it was really interesting just before COVID, myself and Aisling did a branding course with a branding expert here in Dublin. And she was talking, like it was a phenomenal course that we did because we really got to step back and look at the business and look at how we promoted and advertised what we did and, you know, like got our messaging across.

06:56 Fiona Kelly
And we realized she said, you need a brand story, you know. And so I was like, well, this is the story. And she was like, dig deeper, dig deeper. And myself and Aisling had this moment one day where we’re like, our dad was a school principal, a teacher, and our mom was a secretary. So I was like, oh, my goodness, education.

07:18 Fiona Kelly
Like, you know, runs in the family. This didn’t just happen by accident, you know, that we just have such a I suppose it’s like that we have such a kind of a rapport with our network. And naturally, like it’s mostly women, as you know, but it was just very interesting when we had that kind of light bulb moment of like, oh, this explains everything. Why have we have such an affinity with with this group and this profession?

07:45 Fiona Kelly
Anyway, so that’s that’s basically that’s where we are, where we are today.

07:50 Jeremy Burrows
Awesome. So how has the profession changed since you started? I think you said your first summit was in 2010. Is that right?

08:05 Fiona Kelly
That’s right.

08:06 Jeremy Burrows
Yeah. It’s been several years now. So what are the changes that you’ve seen in the industry?

08:13 Fiona Kelly
I know I’ve got the wrinkles to show for it over 15 years now, which is so hard to believe. But I suppose a lot of the change is coming from the demands that are being placed on the role, on the people in the profession. It’s obviously, it goes without saying, like AI has just taken over every conversation now nearly. And

08:41 Fiona Kelly
What I love to see is where there’s extra responsibility and there’s a lot more strategic collaboration happening with the people in our network and their execs, the people that they support.

08:52 Fiona Kelly
It has gone like not not that I mean, there was there was a limited number of EAs who I remember, you know, inviting to speak at the conference or. or who I was networking with at the time, who were at a higher level, who sat at the leadership table, who, you know, like they were involved, they were really involved, but they were definitely in the minority. Whereas now that is flipped. And I think the expectations on the role is that the majority should be at that position, you know, where they’re…

09:23 Fiona Kelly
you know, have that voice at the table and will make suggestions and will represent their execs when they’re not there and, you know, can start making decisions for them.

09:36 Fiona Kelly
And I won’t, I actually don’t know enough about, I see a lot about the chief of staff versus EA debate online. And I kind of stay away from it because I do think it’s different. And I think every single company will, Whatever the job title is, it is like it’s a different job nearly in every company. Every company has their own structure and policy and the way that the role is positioned. And every EA has a different career path. But I think I think that’s the biggest change that I’ve seen is that there is a requirement. for the EAs to step up and to give more than maybe what was traditionally more transactional kind of work and processing and administration.

10:21 Fiona Kelly
So, yeah, that’s, I think, I mean, I’m sure you’ve seen it too.

10:26 Fiona Kelly
But yeah, those, I think, are the main changes that I’ve seen.

10:29 Jeremy Burrows
Yeah, I totally agree. And

10:33 Jeremy Burrows
I have been doing the, well, I’ve been an assistant for about 20 years and been doing the training for about 10 years. And yeah, I agree 100% that a lot of the shifts in the requirements are, hey, we need you to be more of a business partner. We need you to be more strategic and manage things.

11:01 Jeremy Burrows
the way I would say it is, you know, my executive wants me to manage his energy.

11:08 Fiona Kelly
Yeah. Okay.

11:10 Jeremy Burrows
More so, more so than his time in a lot of ways, because, you know, there’s, there’s a lot of technology and AI and automation and tools that are really good at managing time, but they, they don’t understand the energy management side as well. And so that’s, that’s how I’ve seen it changes in my experience too. So

11:32 Fiona Kelly
Absolutely, because there’s a huge expectation on the leader to always be on and to always have that kind of energy and to be showing, you know, strength and direction and everything like that. So it’s they don’t want their headspace being clogged up. And we actually recently hired a VA to do like 10, 15 hours a month for us and just the difference already is you know it’s incredible like and just to think oh I can give this to somebody to help me with how amazing you know and it does it kind of frees up your time to then it’s almost like making space for other opportunities or you know having more time to spot other opportunities and come up with ideas instead of being stuck in the weeds if you like you know so hopefully the next time I’m talking to you Jeremy we’ll have someone full time but at the moment it’s a kind of a yeah like for the first time in how many years that we have someone who’s supporting us so it’s brilliant

12:35 Jeremy Burrows
So, OK, you mentioned your sister is in business with you, your co-founder. Is that right? Yes.

12:41 Fiona Kelly
Yeah.

12:42 Jeremy Burrows
So what’s you know, I have a sister, I have two brothers and, you know, it can be fun working with them. It also can be annoying working with them. So tell us about the joys and pains of running a business with your sister.

12:57 Fiona Kelly
Yes. So I think overall, it’s a really positive experience. And sometimes when I think about it and I think about us not working together, I just go, I don’t know if it would be the same experience for me, you know, because it because we both know everybody.

13:13 Fiona Kelly
We both know everyone. You know, we know everyone in the network. We know they’re they’re about their families we know about their roles and you know we’ll always kind of like we’ve made so many friends and it’s just really nice then that I can kind of share that experience with my sister as well like generally we’ll get on a call if we’ve got to talk about something and we’ll be like okay we have half an hour and then like for the first 10 minutes we’ll be talking about something to do with our family or you know just personal life or whatever which is fine I mean that’s That can happen with any colleague. But then we’re like, OK, now we better get through this.

13:50 Fiona Kelly
But it’s so lovely to have those experiences like and, you know, at times where I don’t tend to kind of panic or stress around events, like obviously there’s things that can go wrong and you have to think on your feet a lot. But during those times where like the pressure is on, it’s really nice to have someone who knows you so well

14:11 Fiona Kelly
And, you know, we both know each other so well to kind of go, like, she’s really good at going, calm now. Okay, let’s think about this. You know, what do we need? Like, this is not something to worry about. And likewise, you know, with her, I’ll be kind of like… OK, no, I like no, no, I definitely know that this is the right thing to do here. If she’s going to push him back on something like naturally, it’s very rare. I’m not just saying it naturally. We will have we will like clash or kind of like during those times of pressure, just be like, oh, or like, you know, if I have to call her by her full name, she’s like.

14:51 Fiona Kelly
you know, I sound like I’m in trouble or something. But like, what’s really nice is we’ve just kind of learned that really nice way of working together. And she has her strengths and I have mine and they don’t clash. And I think that’s actually why it works so well.

15:07 Fiona Kelly
But overall, yeah, it’s just really nice. It would be, I don’t even know what the experience would be if I wasn’t working with her throughout it. And I suppose what I love about it, too, is it has just evolved that way, almost like the network that we have has evolved that way, too.

15:23 Jeremy Burrows
That’s great.

15:24 Jeremy Burrows
Well, so speaking of sister, you have a sister business, Miss Jones Ireland, that also supports the profession. Tell us a little bit about that.

15:37 Fiona Kelly
That’s right. So I guess what prompted us to start Miss Jones in Ireland was over COVID again, like we were dealing with lots of different government agencies here that were kind of supporting us to pivot and to look at what else we can do. Like everything that we did went online, any training courses, our annual event.

15:59 Fiona Kelly
And, you know, yourself, it was like a really difficult time. And so we said, OK, well, let’s look at what else we can do. And because as I said earlier, we have a background in events and event management. We had always been hosting events, networking events and, you know, fam trips and things like that with our network. And we were introducing them to a lot of venues and suppliers, you know, at our annual conference, we would have had exhibitors and sponsors involved with that as well.

16:28 Fiona Kelly
So we said, oh, why don’t we create a directory? You know, let’s start there. Let’s try and get some support. There was a lot of kind of, web development support that the agencies were giving out at the time.

16:40 Fiona Kelly
And so we went about starting our own directory. And, you know, like you almost need to have a degree in IT to understand the back end of things and, you know, everything like that. And so it was just very serendipitous. At the same time, I was on I was invited on to a

17:00 Fiona Kelly
UK and Ireland PA network leaders call.

17:03 Fiona Kelly
And there was a girl, Lisa Boiselle, who was on that call as well, who is the founder of Miss Jones in the UK, Miss Jones Group. And I heard her speaking. She has an Irish accent. I thought, oh, my goodness, how do I not know her already?

17:19 Fiona Kelly
So I reached out to her and I was like, let’s grab a coffee. And we were both living in London at the same time.

17:26 Fiona Kelly
Because I’m over and back to London, which we’ll get on to. So we literally went for a coffee and a walk. And by the end of that, I said to her, look, we’d love to partner with you. We have the network. We have the connections. you know, we’re doing this already and you’ve got the directory set up and the systems and the processes and everything like that. And Herbie in Irish was like, I always wanted to start Miss Jones in Ireland. So I was like, look, you know, it seems like the perfect thing to do. And so we’ve done that. And so that was three years ago. And we haven’t really looked back since. It’s great to…

18:05 Fiona Kelly
And also just to explain, I suppose, if anyone who doesn’t hasn’t heard of Miss Jones, it’s a venue finding concierge. So finding suppliers and it just makes it just made total sense for us, because also when we had external clients, while we were growing the executive forum, It was very labor intensive, like it took up a lot of time managing events for clients. Whereas with Miss Jones, we’re at the beginning stage. We’re like, help you book a venue. And then, you know, it’s over to you or your teams or whatever it is. So we’re at the beginning stage of… booking venues and suppliers. And so we’re not managing the events then. Now, some clients will come to us and they’ll ask us to do that. And naturally, if we if we have capacity and we’ve got that experience, we’ll do that. We’ll help them with that.

18:59 Fiona Kelly
But that’s kind of how it has grown and grown. And we host events and farm trips. And, you know, we just can continue doing all those things that keeps the network tight and keeps the network meeting up as well.

19:12 Fiona Kelly
And, you know, giving them the opportunity to talk about their challenges, talk about their wins, share contacts, share their knowledge and tools and, you know, things that they’re doing. So it’s kind of, yeah, it’s great to have that sister business and to tell people about it while I’m also talking to them about the training and the courses that we do as well.

19:32 Jeremy Burrows
Nice, nice. That’s great.

19:34 Jeremy Burrows
So, okay, let’s go back to the events for a second. I have a couple questions about your forum that you’ve put on for 15 or so years.

19:44 Jeremy Burrows
Yeah. Tell us about your process for bringing in speakers and trainers and collaborating, like…

19:53 Jeremy Burrows
I’m sure, you know, running this event for a long time and it’s, you know, it’s your, your quote unquote baby, if you will.

20:01 Jeremy Burrows
You want to protect the brand. You want to make sure that you bring in top notch training. You want to make sure that the trainers understand the assistant, you know, job and role and career. So yeah, just, just walk us through a little bit about that process.

20:18 Fiona Kelly
Sure. So yeah,

20:20 Fiona Kelly
we would host or I would host a number of webinars throughout the year.

20:26 Fiona Kelly
Sometimes it’s to help promote a course. Sometimes it’s just, you know, I’ve made a connection with somebody that I think our network would really like to hear about. their their thinking and the knowledge that they have to share. So while I am getting people to, you know, inviting people to sign up for those events and webinars, I will ask, what are the challenges that you’re facing in your role? And so then after that, I’ll kind of assess, you know, I’ll look at the last six months, six to nine months of what the challenges are. And it’s funny because every time I go to, um,

21:04 Fiona Kelly
put together the program for the Executive PA Summit every year, people will say, what’s your theme? And I’m like, I don’t really have one because I think sometimes if you pick a theme, you get stuck on that and it can just narrow everything down. So I always just say the theme evolves depending on what is current. And so I will review all the responses that I’ve gotten for the webinars and I tend to then categorize them, you know. So say for this executive PA, someone coming up, there was like career, strategic career positioning, challenges, managing relationships, uncertainty in the role. So like, you know, there was there was like five or six different themes that kept coming up.

21:53 Fiona Kelly
So once I once I know that I’ll start putting the feeders out and it’s almost again, it’s one of those serendipitous things that sometimes happens.

22:02 Fiona Kelly
I’ll just start connecting with people or I’ll start seeing more of that particular topic or subject area and I’ll just end up meeting the right people now. And sometimes, you know, it works out, sometimes it doesn’t. But for the most part, that that’s my process. And I suppose when I am like assessing somebody, I wouldn’t just kind of hop on a call for 10 minutes and go, oh, you’ll do like I’ll look at their LinkedIn profile, see what their career is. I’ll see if I can find any videos of them online or if they have experience of speaking before.

22:33 Fiona Kelly
And just, you know what I mean, just to kind of assess that level of confidence that they have as well. And I suppose a bonus, like a big part of it is that if they’ve been an EA or they’re currently an EA, they just get the role and they’ll know what the person sitting in the seat in the audience is going through dealing with.

22:54 Fiona Kelly
And, you know, they can just speak to them at that better level. I have obviously I’ve had other speakers and trainers throughout the years who have

23:01 Fiona Kelly
maybe don’t, you know, have that experience in their own. And like, even though they would add great value and everything, there’d just be that little bit missing, you know, that I would find. So where possible, I do try and seek that out. And

23:17 Fiona Kelly
I think all the speakers I have so far this year are former EAs. So I’m really, yeah, I’m really quite happy about that. Workshops are a different thing as well. On our workshop day, it’s a bit of a different thing because it’s a bit more intense. And, you know, there’s not enough in Ireland, like it’s quite a small market there. Obviously we are Ireland’s only L&D platform that hosts an event, a training event like this.

23:45 Fiona Kelly
So sometimes I do have to look outside of the pool because it’s just not big enough here as well.

23:53 Fiona Kelly
But for the most part, I just think it adds that extra layer to the conference that we have and to what people actually learn and the learning outcomes that they have.

24:06 Jeremy Burrows
Nice.

24:07 Jeremy Burrows
Awesome. Thanks for sharing. So another event question I had is, you know, on the experience side.

24:14 Jeremy Burrows
So people have showed up, they’ve registered, you’ve got the speakers lined up, you’ve got the schedule, you’ve done all the logistics.

24:21 Jeremy Burrows
But when you’re actually sitting in the room and you’re actually going from one session to the next and you’re going to lunch and you’re going to the the break and all that, what’s your number one tip for people that are planning events for their companies or organizations when it comes to experience? Like what makes the experience of being in that event, being in the onsite unique or different or memorable? However you do it, what do you think through when you’re planning these events when it comes to how the the attendee experiences it?

24:55 Fiona Kelly
Yeah, I think something that I’ve learned a lot over the years is, especially with the speakers, because like you’re sitting in the room for like, you know, six, seven hours, you have a break for lunch and you have your tea and coffee breaks and things like that. But for the most part, you’re kind of sitting there. So I would always encourage people

25:12 Fiona Kelly
have the audience interaction, ask them questions, get them thinking and reflecting about their roles as opposed to just sitting there and taking in lots of content because that’s kind of what it’s all about, especially in this role. It might be the one chance that people are attending actually get to sit back and think about their role in that time because usually they’re firefighting and dealing with other people’s problems and trying to solve other people’s problems. So it’s like, And that’s one thing that I would encourage is the audience interaction and movement as well. If it’s not for the sake of it, you know, if it’s relevant to the piece and to the topic, have a bit of movement. Like I have one lady this year who is talking about playfulness.

25:56 Fiona Kelly
in your role and how it shows like neuroscience is showing that playfulness in your role and your interactions with your colleagues and everything like that. You know, it actually helps creativity and it helps with problem solving and it helps with team bonding. And because

26:14 Fiona Kelly
Just like a bit of a side note, she actually was L&D manager in Google and she found that the more she was climbing the ranks, the more serious people became, even people that were reporting to her. So, you know, she’s just saying like it’s an overall, like to feel good in your role and everything like that. That’s just kind of one example. So I know she, spoiler alert, well, it won’t be spoiler alert by the time this is going out probably. Yeah.

26:43 Fiona Kelly
But she is going to come on stage dancing, like making a fool of herself and getting everyone kind of relaxed and playful and, you know, like just kind of setting the tone for the day. So I just love. Yeah, I love I love those kind of unique opportunities. And that’s that’s one thing I would say. And then have enough help, have enough hands to help with and, you know, be very clear with who’s responsible for what and make sure that they know what’s what they need to do when they need to do it right that’s another like there’s so many things i could have a whole other podcast with you about events we’ll do a part two sunday do part two for sure

27:24 Jeremy Burrows
Awesome. Well, kind of to wrap things up, I appreciate your time. Thanks again for being on the show. But you mentioned something, you know, when I have guests come on, I ask them what they would like to talk about. And you mentioned something about another career that has grown alongside the executive PA forum.

27:43 Jeremy Burrows
And speaking of playfulness, leaning into creativity and playfulness, whatever your role is. So tell us a little bit about that.

27:52 Fiona Kelly
So when I was in Sydney, I decided to just, you know, I was in a new city and I decided just a way to make friends that I would do some drama classes.

28:02 Fiona Kelly
And I really enjoyed that. And so when I go back to Ireland, I actually trained as an actress while I was had set up my business as well.

28:11 Fiona Kelly
And so that is, I guess, that career has evolved not as rapidly now as the executive PA for him, because you do need to really nurture that as well. But I’ve done lots of plays, you know, lots of theatre touring. And I’ve also started writing the last few years again, kind of COVID pushed me into writing more. So I’ve done a lot of screenwriting. And I just I suppose when I’m writing, I don’t care if it never goes anywhere, if no one ever picks it up or sees it. I just have enjoy it so much when I am doing it. And I kind of entertain myself when I’m writing. So so I love that side of it. And then, you know, Obviously, I have an agent in London and I, you know, go for auditions anytime that he calls me or, you know, a lot of it is self-tapes now so I can fit it in between my business work as well, which is great.

29:11 Fiona Kelly
And yeah, so that’s why I always love that idea of bringing creativeness into your life, whatever way it is, because I just think it’s so important. I think when we’re in school, There’s such a focus on academics, well, in Ireland anyway. And I just love to see more like more emphasis on sport and art and creativity as well. So that is my other. So that’s kind of like that’s part three episode, Jeremy, where we talk about my acting and writing and my experiences there. But the funny thing is, like they’re all linked, you know, they’re all connected. They’re all kind of like events is you’re putting on a show, you know, there’s a performance, there’s a point like the speakers are up on a stage. It’s very similar to, OK, you don’t get to rehearse a conference, but you’d like to think that the speakers will rehearse what they’re going to talk about.

30:03 Fiona Kelly
That’s kind of the same when you’re on stage and theatre, you’re performing to an audience and you just want to give them something where they feel comfortable. where they feel something and where they feel good coming out of it. And I’ve learned something, you know, so, um, it’s all, it’s all of it linked.

30:18 Jeremy Burrows
That’s awesome.

30:20 Fiona Kelly
Yeah.

30:20 Jeremy Burrows
Great Fiona. Well, keep up the good work and I really hope to make it to Dublin in, uh, Ireland’s on my bucket list. I have actually have a cousin, uh, in Ireland, but, uh,

30:35 Jeremy Burrows
I’m part Irish. I don’t know how much, but I know last name Burroughs. And I did some research and have cousins. So like, I know, I know there’s some Irish in me.

30:43 Fiona Kelly
Well, you’d have to come and find them.

30:45 Jeremy Burrows
Exactly. Exactly.

30:46 Fiona Kelly
Welcome at our executive PA summit, Jeremy.

30:49 Jeremy Burrows
Yeah, I would love to. So thanks again for being on the show. Where’s the best place? I’ll put everything, all the links and everything in your bio and all that in the show notes at leaderassistant.com/383

31:01 Jeremy Burrows
But if there’s one place that you’re like, hey, you want to find out more, where should they go?

31:06 Fiona Kelly
ExecutivePAforum.com.

31:09 Jeremy Burrows
Perfect.

31:10 Fiona Kelly
And you can also find me on LinkedIn. I’m on LinkedIn. You’ll find me there too.

31:14 Jeremy Burrows
Awesome.

31:15 Jeremy Burrows
All righty. Well, thanks again. We’ll talk soon and, you know, be on the lookout listeners for part two and three someday.

31:24 Fiona Kelly
Thanks so much, Jeremy.

In this exclusive episode, Al-Husein Madhany and I talk about how to confidently craft a resume – specifically for executive support roles – that stands out from the crowd.

This is not a generic conversation about resumes. This is a brutally honest session to help you with your resume so you can gain an edge in your current (or future) job search.

To further dive into this topic and get access to the resume template and line by line videos, enroll in The Assistant’s Guide to Crafting the Perfect Resume online course. (NOTE: Be sure to listen to the podcast for the course coupon code so you can enroll for 50% OFF!)

CONNECT WITH JEREMY and AL-HUSEIN MADHANY

• • Jeremy on LinkedIn
  • Jeremy’s book, The Leader Assistant
  • Enroll in The Leader Assistant Academy
  • Al-Husein on LinkedIn
  • Al-Husein’s online resume course -> The Assistant’s Guide to Crafting the Perfect Resume

ABOUT JEREMY

Jeremy Burrows is a longtime executive assistant, international speaker, author of the #1 bestselling book, The Leader Assistant: Four Pillars of a Confident, Game-Changing Assistant, founder of The Leader Assistant Community, and host of the #1 podcast for assistants – The Leader Assistant Podcast.

He has worked with CEOs, professional athletes, Fortune 100 board members, and billionaires spanning across the nonprofit and for-profit sectors.

Jeremy has had the opportunity to speak to assistants all over the world at multiple conferences of various sizes in Hong Kong, Thailand, Germany, and the United States.

He’s currently Senior EA to the Founder and CEO of Capacity – a fast-growing, artificial intelligence software company.

Jeremy’s passion is to help you lead well, resist burnout, and automate before you’re automated.

Jeremy lives in Kansas City, MO with his wife and 2 boys. To connect with Jeremy or learn more about his training resources for executives and assistants, visit LeaderAssistant.com.

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EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

00:00 JEREMY

Whether you’re looking for a new job or you want to be ready when you need to look for a new job, crafting a resume that stands out is a very important skill, especially in this day and age of AI generated content, AI tracking systems, AI

00:21 Jeremy

software that reviews and reads and filters and scans resumes. So that’s what this conversation today is about. This is a recording from a webinar that I hosted with my friend Al-Husein Madhany, all about how to confidently craft a resume that stands out. Now, this isn’t just a generic resume conversation about how to build a good resume. This is specifically for executive assistants, executive business partners, administrative assistants, chiefs of staff, and other administrative professionals like yourself. So I hope this conversation is helpful. Now, if you want to dive in a little bit deeper and actually get the template, the resume template,

01:08 JEREMY

and the video walkthrough course where Al-Husein takes you through every line of the resume template and helps you craft that perfect resume. You can check out the course at leaderassistant.com/resume.

01:26 JEREMY

That’s R-E-S-U-M-E.

01:30 JEREMY

And you can actually get 50% off. So it’s $197 for the course.

01:35 JEREMY

Again, it includes video walkthrough, the full template that you can copy and make it your own. And then a line by line video walkthroughs training you how to

01:46 JEREMY

really make your resume stand out in this crowded space of executive support. So leaderassistant.com slash resume to check out the course. And it’s generally $197, but you can get 50% off if you use the code CRAFT when you check out.

02:06 JEREMY

So go to leaderassistant.com slash resume, click enroll now and add the coupon code CRAFT, C-R-A-F-T. Again, the coupon code is CRAFT and it’ll take 50% off of the course.

02:21 JEREMY

And this is lifetime access, so definitely worth getting in. That way you’re ready, again, whether you’re looking for a job now or you want to just be prepared and have your resume up to date whenever you need it. So leaderassistant.com slash resume. Use the code CRAFT to get 50% off. I hope you enjoy the conversation, and we’ll talk soon.

02:50 SPEAKER_02

The Leader Assistant Podcast exists to encourage and challenge assistants to become confident, game-changing leader assistants.

03:08 JEREMY

So my name is Jeremy Burrows. I’m super excited to have you here. I have been an executive assistant for going on 20 years, and currently I’m senior executive assistant at an artificial intelligence software company called Capacity. I’ve been there since day one. I was hired number one. We launched the company in January 2017. Now we have over 350 employees and plus 100 contractors all over the world, headquartered based in St. Louis, Missouri.

03:44 JEREMY

But I work remote from Kansas City, Missouri. And yeah, I’ve been…

03:50 JEREMY

Been working with my CEO for, this is the start of our 10th year. So very, very fun to be right in the middle of the AI revolution. And I love being an assistant still.

04:05 JEREMY

But I also wrote a book called The Leader Assistant. And I host a podcast called the Leader Assistant Podcast. All of that information is in our circle community or at leaderassistant.com if you want to check any of that out.

04:21 JEREMY

I am a little under the weather today, so I apologize if I have to mute or cough or all of the above and kind of push through this webinar. But I’m super excited to have you today. We’re going to talk all about how to confidently craft a resume that stands out. And I met Al-Husein recently. Matt Haney years ago, we were both assistants, both in the AI space.

04:52 JEREMY

His journey has been very similar to mine and very different at the same time.

05:00 JEREMY

He was an assistant and chief of staff at Facebook and PayPal back in the day. He was involved with a lot of the reorganization of the executive support roles at Facebook, for example.

05:15 JEREMY

And he then moved into the AI space and was really doing a chief of staff type role to the executives there and then transitioned into more of an HR role. So what I love about having Al-Husein on this webinar today is he was an assistant for years has worked with assistant teams he has hired assistants as an hr person and he’s even on the side he has a recruiting and training business with assistants as well so he’s been an assistant he’s hired assistants

05:58 JEREMY

He’s had assistance, but he’s also very, very ingrained in the HR world. So his company that he was part of got acquired last year in the AI space, and he was very, very involved in a ton of hiring.

06:16 JEREMY

They hired, I think, I can’t remember what Al was saying. I remember following along throughout that journey, but

06:22 JEREMY

When you joined, there was only 100 or so employees. And then when you left, there was 700 or something like that.

06:29 AL-HUSEIN

70 to 700.

06:31 JEREMY

70 to 700. So that’s a lot of hiring. That’s a lot of resumes. That’s a lot of interviewing. That’s a lot of reading resumes. That’s cycling through resumes, having interviews, hiring people, making good hires, making bad hires, all the HR stuff.

06:46 JEREMY

So anyway, that’s why I brought him along for this webinar. That’s why we’ve worked together extensively.

06:52 JEREMY

for several years now. He’s the guru on the HR resume interview side of things.

07:00 JEREMY

And I’m just happy to have him here. So with all that to say, I’m gonna share just a couple of quick things and I’ll catch up in the chat as Al-Husein kicks off his resume stuff. But there’s this news going around about the consulting firm out of Australia that laid off a bunch of assistants.

07:21 JEREMY

And they basically said, we’re going to offshore and outsource the work that these assistants were doing to low-cost offshore labor companies. And I posted on LinkedIn that I would share my thoughts on this webinar because I was busy. My parents live across the street. Their sewer line collapsed. I was dealing with that for the last two weeks as kind of the general contractor for making sure everything was going okay over there as we tore up their yard.

07:53 JEREMY

But the thing that I wanted to say about the instance there is

07:58 JEREMY

Twofold. First, like many other assistant thought leaders in the space have said on LinkedIn, there’s a certain element of a perception of the assistant and what we do in our roles is not valuable. Right. And so when a finance team or the leadership team looks at the numbers and they say, oh,

08:22 JEREMY

Where can we cut costs? We need to cut costs. Well, let’s just outsource assistant tasks to cheaper labor, right?

08:32 JEREMY

So there’s obviously this disconnect and there can be this disconnect on what we do as assistants and how we bring the strategic value, but people don’t always see that and don’t always understand that. But at the same time, there are assistants out there who are doing tasks that are not strategic and that are not high impact tasks. And they have either ignored

08:59 JEREMY

innovation and technology like artificial intelligence and automation, or they’re slow to adapt it. And so they’re still manually accomplishing tasks that are being more and more automated as time goes on.

09:15 JEREMY

So that’s kind of the two sides of that where, yes, there are people that don’t understand what we do and that don’t understand the impact we have. But there are also assistants out there that don’t understand it either and that are just doing tasks that can be automated with AI or offshore talent that can do a lot cheaper.

09:32 JEREMY

On the flip side, I will say that at a high level, my concern, yes, is that I want… My book is called The Leader Assistant. I want people to see assistants as leaders, right? I want you to see yourselves as leaders as well. So I’m definitely passionate about that. For any of those of you who have followed me for a long time, you understand that. But on the other side, I actually think the news that came out about this team laying off all of these assistants…

10:00 JEREMY

I actually think that’s more of a result or a surface level issue. I think underneath the root of it for that specific news and that specific story is that this was a consulting firm that was doing these layoffs. My two cents is that the consulting firm is freaking out because they see that AI is going to take the consultant’s job.

10:30 JEREMY

they see that they are going to have to adapt very quickly because AI is becoming a very good consultant to a lot of people. And so I would just encourage you to see it, yes, see it as, listen, we should see ourselves as leaders. We should try to help others see the value that we bring, and we should try to do more strategic tasks and be strategic partners with our executives. But we should also recognize that there are certain industries that are getting obliterated by AI. And there are certain industries that are going to essentially not exist or exist at a very, very small capacity compared to what they are now.

11:15 JEREMY

Yes, be frustrated and be vocal about, hey, listen, we are doing more than just calendar, email, travel, and other duties as assigned. We’re actually strategic partners. But also, just don’t be ignorant to the fact, if I want to encourage you in this way, to be blunt, don’t be ignorant to the fact that certain industries are getting hit very, very hard by AI. Yeah. So all that to say, stay encouraged.

11:48 JEREMY

There’s a lot going on in the market. There’s a lot of opinions. There’s a lot of stuff going on in the world. What we’re going to focus in on is how can you specifically

11:59 JEREMY

set up a resume, whether you’re looking for a job now or whether you’re going to have to look for a job, you’re forced to look for a job soon, unfortunately, with a lot of layoffs going on, or you just want to look for a different job because you realize you’re in an industry that’s dying in this AI revolution age.

12:16 JEREMY

We want to help you craft a resume that stands out. And that’s what Al-Husein is going to dive into and help out with. So Al-Husein, thanks for joining us. And we’re excited to craft a resume that stands out.

12:29 AL-HUSEIN

Well, it’s great to be here, everyone. Thank you so much for having me, Jeremy and Leader Assistant. So great to see so many familiar faces and names across the EA universe. I’ve just added my LinkedIn to the chat. Feel free to add me.

12:44 AL-HUSEIN

Happy to add value wherever I can. As Jeremy mentioned, there are

12:52 AL-HUSEIN

layoffs coming, but I want to temper that with also some other news that is not actually front-page news, but is something that I’m familiar with and those who are putting their ear on the ground are also familiar with. This is a direct quote from Andreessen Horowitz. Mark Andreessen, who’s the co-founder and CEO of A16Z, who is…

13:19 AL-HUSEIN

who, A16Z being the number one venture capital firm in the world, on a public podcast, he said recently, we love our assistants and our administrators and we can’t work without them.

13:35 AL-HUSEIN

So it is very much an industry-specific thing. It is not necessarily a blanket, all EA roles are being automated away.

13:47 AL-HUSEIN

Those that are in growing industries will have roles, and those who are in shrinking and automated industries will not. The reason we’re doing this is

14:00 AL-HUSEIN

webinar is really to serve the community. The reason why Jeremy and I connected all those many years ago was we both had this

14:10 AL-HUSEIN

I’m a firm believer that one should only work with people that they enjoy spending time with and who have shared the same values. And Jeremy and I share those same values of service and giving back to the community.

14:23 AL-HUSEIN

And so as somebody who has traversed being an administrator, an executive assistant, an executive business partner, a chief of staff,

14:33 AL-HUSEIN

And now a chief people officer and an HR leader and somebody who is responsible primarily for recruiting of talent in companies and somebody who is hired as a consultant to companies when it comes to their talent profiles. I thought one way I could give back to the community is by resurrecting the resume course that we had created so many years ago and spending some time there on recruiting. going through why I still think it’s very relevant.

15:02 AL-HUSEIN

As I said earlier, it is not a blanket EA automation thing. It is actually an industry thing.

15:16 AL-HUSEIN

And I’m actually seeing executive assistants being hired across a few industries, which I can talk about today.

15:24 AL-HUSEIN

Of course, the one I come from is technology, and that’s one in which they have the highest margins. And so that is one in which the executive assistants will always be available.

15:32 AL-HUSEIN

Those are the type of companies that Marc Andreessen, through his company, A16Z, invests in. OK, so let’s dive into it. In the chat, please let me know what you think the purpose of a resume is.

15:46 AL-HUSEIN

So just one word, two words, what’s the purpose of a resume?

15:52 AL-HUSEIN

Why do we have resumes? Especially for an executive assistant in 2026, if you are applying for a job, let’s say you’re applying for a job through LinkedIn, or let’s say you’re applying for a job because your friend said, hey, I work at this company, we’d love for you to consider working with us. What is the purpose of the resume?

16:17 AL-HUSEIN

Some people say your availability to share your professional background, what you can bring to the table to highlight your skills, to highlight who you are, to get noticed, to get introduction. Yeah, so some people are touching upon it. The primary purpose of a resume in 2026 is actually just marketing.

16:42 AL-HUSEIN

It is marketing and it is the only goal is not to get a job. Let me repeat that. The goal is not to get a job. Your resume is to get your foot in the door to have a conversation with a human.

16:55 AL-HUSEIN

That is the goal. The goal is to get a conversation with a human and to beat out the other hundred people that the recruiter is recruiting. the other 100 resumes that the recruiter had to look through on Monday morning at 9 AM when they wanted to be doing something else.

17:15 AL-HUSEIN

So the purpose of the role and the purpose of the resume is to have a conversation. Remember, and a lot of what I’m sharing with you today and the templates that you’re going to see and the templates in my course are specifically for when you apply to a role outside of an executive recruiting firm or outside of a recruiting firm.

17:38 AL-HUSEIN

This is when you apply directly to the company and you are dealing directly with those HR and recruiting individuals at that company.

17:49 AL-HUSEIN

So the purpose is to create curiosity in the mind of the reader so that they want to have a conversation with you.

17:59 AL-HUSEIN

Which means what? It means that your goal in creating the resume is to be memorable.

18:08 AL-HUSEIN

To be memorable.

18:10 AL-HUSEIN

Now remember, what is a resume?

18:13 AL-HUSEIN

A resume is literally 8 and 1 half by 11 piece of paper with just black and white.

18:18 AL-HUSEIN

It’s just black and white. You cannot send over a Snapchat real. You can’t send over an Insta real. You can’t. It’s literally super old school, 8 and 1 half by 11.

18:33 AL-HUSEIN

black and white.

18:34 AL-HUSEIN

So how do you show up as memorable, and how do you pop, and how do you create curiosity in the mind of the recruiter who has 100 of these things to review in black and white? And that is the purpose of this course, and that is the purpose of this phone call and the webinar.

18:50 AL-HUSEIN

The reality is, recruiters, myself being one, I have timed myself. And this is a well-known fact, that recruiters only spend eight seconds reviewing a resume.

19:04 AL-HUSEIN

Not 18, not 38 seconds, eight seconds per resume. So you have eight seconds to get a dopamine hit from a 30-year-old recruiter, maybe 26, maybe they’re female, maybe they’re male, who spends their time scrolling up and down and left and right getting other dopamine hits on this thing.

19:34 AL-HUSEIN

So how do you do that? And that is the purpose of this course. And that is the purpose of this call is I’ve seen so much talent out there. You all are so talented.

19:43 AL-HUSEIN

And yet you’re not getting those phone screens. You’re not getting those calls because you are under representing yourself on paper, under representing yourself on eight and a half by 11 pieces of paper with black and white. And it’s a travesty. It’s a travesty. You have so much talent and so much experience and you’re not letting it come through.

20:04 AL-HUSEIN

So going back to this recruiter, let’s call her Michelle. OK, Michelle is the recruiter. Let’s say she’s 28 years old.

20:11 AL-HUSEIN

Again, it’s Monday morning.

20:13 AL-HUSEIN

The job description went live two weeks ago, and now she’s reviewing all the resumes that have come in, and it’s well over 100. And the question is, how do you get from her scrolling through these hundreds of resumes, eight seconds each,

20:31 AL-HUSEIN

for her to say, oh, this one’s interesting. Let me have a phone call with this person.

20:39 AL-HUSEIN

This resume is interesting, but I’ve decided I think I want to have a phone call with this person. She can’t have a phone call with all 100. She can’t have a phone call with the 200 who have applied. Her job is to whittle it down from the 100 or 200 who have applied down to 20. And she’s going to contact those 20 people and say, look, we need to have a phone call with these 20 people.

21:06 AL-HUSEIN

The only way to get in that stack of 20 is to make sure your resume pop, to make sure your resume is memorable, and to make sure it attracts the attention of the recruiter and the curiosity of the recruiter. And I would go as far as to say, give that recruiter a dopamine hit. Show them something they’ve never seen before.

21:30 AL-HUSEIN

All right.

21:32 AL-HUSEIN

The purpose of that piece of paper that we’re going to go over today, this eight and a half by 11 piece of paper in black and white with no emojis on it, with no color on it, right? The purpose is to tell your story, but not tell all your story, but to create

21:53 AL-HUSEIN

enough curiosity that the recruiter is like, wow, this is interesting. I want to talk to this person on Monday at 9 a.m. for 20 minutes. I’m willing to do that because I’m intrigued by what I’m seeing on the resume. I’m intrigued because it does not look like the other 99 resumes I’ve seen this morning. I’m intrigued because it is speaking something, it is saying something to me that this person is very intentional about who they are and what service they’re providing and how they’re marketing themselves.

22:25 AL-HUSEIN

Your resume is not just a storytelling device. It’s not just marketing. It’s not just to get an interview. It’s also, and I go into this in my salary negotiation course and in the coaching I do, it is also to, it’s how salary negotiation begins. Salary negotiation begins with your resume.

22:48 AL-HUSEIN

It does not begin at the end of the interview process when they give you an offer. The salary negotiation piece begins with the review of your resume. Recruiters and the best HR leaders understand what your value, your worth in US dollars is as soon as they look at your resume. They’ve already put in their head how much they will have to pay this person.

23:18 AL-HUSEIN

The best recruiters do that. I do that, and I train my entire team to do that. And if I’m doing that, and I learned this from the best, I’m sure this is something that’s well known.

23:28 AL-HUSEIN

So it’s not just to tell your story. It’s not just to drive a dopamine hit in the recruiter’s mind so that they want to have a phone call with you.

23:40 AL-HUSEIN

It’s also the beginning of salary negotiations. And even more importantly, it is a story about your future.

23:47 AL-HUSEIN

It is the story about the future that you want and the future you want, particularly in that company. Okay.

23:55 AL-HUSEIN

So there are five tenants to every resume. And if you take the course, if you see them and, you know, Jeremy will of course show them in about show a resume in about five, 10 minutes here.

24:08 AL-HUSEIN

And we can go through some of them, but let me just tell you quickly the five tenants of the resume. But before we go into that,

24:15 AL-HUSEIN

What is the one thing that a recruiter, again, I’m not talking about executive recruiters. I’m not talking about recruiting firms. I’m talking about a recruiter who sits inside a company and you’ve gone to that company website and you’ve applied through their careers page or through LinkedIn. I’m talking about those type of recruiters because those type of recruiters are very different than executive recruiters or recruiting firms. And I know this because I’ve worked in both. OK? And the process is very different. And so the resume should look very different.

24:42 AL-HUSEIN

And the first thing that the recruiter, Michelle, 28 years old, is going to do when she has whittled the stack from 100 or 200 down to 20, and she said, OK, this one is curious. This one looks interesting. This one looks interesting. Pass on these others. This one. What is the first thing she’s going to do

25:07 AL-HUSEIN

Before she sets up an interview, a phone screen with those 20 people, the first thing she’s going to do is she’s going to review your social media.

25:18 AL-HUSEIN

Okay? If you don’t think this is happening, I’m sorry to say you don’t live in the modern world.

25:27 AL-HUSEIN

The first thing she’s going to do is she’s going to review your LinkedIn and

25:31 AL-HUSEIN

And not just your LinkedIn page experience, accolades, education. No, she’s going to look at all of your posts from the last three years, maybe one year.

25:43 AL-HUSEIN

If she sees anything political, she may decide to pass on your resume. Why?

25:52 AL-HUSEIN

Why? Irrespective of what your politics are. Even if your politics are that of the firms that you’re applying to. It’s because you don’t know the politics of the leader that you’re supporting and the principle that you’re supporting.

26:09 AL-HUSEIN

Let’s say you apply to a big company. Let’s say you apply to TIAA-CREF. Let’s say you apply to the US government. Let’s say you apply to McKinsey. Let’s say you apply to Deloitte. Let’s say you apply to a health care system, like in Pittsburgh, which has over 100,000 employees. Irrespective of what the health care system’s politics are locally, your specific principle that you’re supporting within that $100,000, 100,000 person corporation

26:40 AL-HUSEIN

may have very different politics. The recruiter knows those politics and is trained to view and understand what those politics may be.

26:51 AL-HUSEIN

And more than that, what the recruiter wants to know is that you could be an ambassador to your executive while not being political. An ambassador for the work, for the professionalism of the work, not of the

27:10 AL-HUSEIN

Politics.

27:11 AL-HUSEIN

Professionalism is what they want.

27:14 AL-HUSEIN

You are an ambassador to your executive in professionalism, not in politics. Okay. Second thing that the recruiter is going to do, and it’s been a very political minefield over the past many years in America, which is why I recommend that if you, executive assistants should stay apolitical.

27:38 AL-HUSEIN

Because your job is to be professional, fundamentally. It’s not to take on the politics of your organization.

27:43 AL-HUSEIN

Leave that to your executive and the HR team or the marketing team or whoever else. That is not your role.

27:50 AL-HUSEIN

And perhaps that’s a minority perspective, but I’m telling you what works and what HR is looking for. Because as you’ve seen with the last election, politics goes left, it goes right, it goes crazy. It’s better just to be safe.

28:04 AL-HUSEIN

Second thing that they’re going to look for is they’re going to find you on Insta, on Facebook, on Snapchat, and on TikTok.

28:09 AL-HUSEIN

And they’re going to look for political messaging there. And if you have anything there that is challenging, they may pull you out of that list.

28:24 AL-HUSEIN

So irrespective of your resume. All right.

28:29 AL-HUSEIN

So before we get into the five tenets of the resume, I just wanted to lay that out there that in the world of social media, in the world that we live in now, in a world where you can literally just go into Gemini or Grok, and I’m not talking about the free versions, I’m talking about the paid versions. which a lot of my team members have.

28:48 AL-HUSEIN

And they can go in and say, please create a political profile for this individual who’s just applied for this executive assistant role. And they, Grok, on Twitter, which is basically Twitter, can actually go through all of your ex-posts and understand where you fall politically.

29:03 AL-HUSEIN

This is what they’re doing. So stay apolitical.

29:07 AL-HUSEIN

Stay political. Stay apolitical.

29:11 AL-HUSEIN

There’s questions about public accounts and private accounts. I’m not going to get into that.

29:16 AL-HUSEIN

What I know is I used to work at Facebook, Instagram, WhatsApp. The real question you have to ask yourself is, do you believe that those messages are encrypted or not? Because people can still pull a profile or a bias, a leaning of you as an individual, irrespective of your public or private posts.

29:46 AL-HUSEIN

OK, the five tenets of a resume. you remember the purpose of the resume is to pop it’s to create curiosity it’s so you don’t look like everyone else and the reason we’re doing this call is because i’m seeing so many of you being so talented and you’re just literally like tripping over yourselves unfortunately because of your social media posts because of the way you’re presenting yourself on this black and white piece of paper uh that it’s it’s it’s it’s unfair uh and so you know i’m hoping that this helps first

30:28 AL-HUSEIN

No grammar and no spelling mistakes.

30:33 AL-HUSEIN

No grammar and no spelling mistakes on your resume. So people are talking about in the chat about what if you’ve shared political things in the past on social media, et cetera. Look,

30:44 AL-HUSEIN

You have your own conscience. I’m not going to tell you what to do here. I’m telling you from an HR leader’s perspective who used to be an EA, who used to be a chief of staff, who’s hired, who’s interviewed thousands of people in my life.

30:58 AL-HUSEIN

I will tell you that it is very important for you just to be principled for yourself and what you decide and how you want to live your life.

31:12 AL-HUSEIN

My job here is just to help you get a job. And I’m telling you what I’ve seen get in the way of people getting jobs.

31:19 AL-HUSEIN

I don’t know if the recruiter has a left-leaning bias or a right-leaning bias. I don’t know if the company you’re applying to has a left-leaning bias or a right-leaning bias. I don’t know if the principal you’re supporting or going to support, voted Republican or Democrat or is independent. I don’t care. My job is to try and get you a job. And I’m just showing you what I’m seeing happening right now live in the world we’ve been living in the past few years of how

31:45 AL-HUSEIN

Unfortunately, so many of you have been dropped out of these recruiter top 20 picks because of what you’ve been sharing politically. All right, the first thing is no grammar and no spelling mistakes.

31:57 AL-HUSEIN

Okay, I should not have to say this to executive assistants, but unfortunately, I feel like I do. If you’re not using Gemini or Grok to actually review your resume, I would encourage you to do so for those things specifically. Number two, less is more. If your resume looks like this, The recruiter is not going to ask you for a phone screen.

32:23 AL-HUSEIN

Less is more. There is no white space on this piece of paper.

32:28 AL-HUSEIN

Remember, the goal is not to put every single thing you’ve done on a piece of paper.

32:34 AL-HUSEIN

It’s to create curiosity in the mind of the recruiter so that they go to your LinkedIn profile so that they then can actually get more detail if they want. Remember, LinkedIn, technically, according to the law, is not a resume. It is a social media company. It is not a resume. It is a social media company, okay?

32:54 AL-HUSEIN

So less is more. So you have eight seconds for a recruiter’s eye to say, where should I land on this piece of paper? And if I’m a recruiter, my eye doesn’t land anywhere. It’s everywhere, okay?

33:08 AL-HUSEIN

So every line that you have in the resume has to kind of pop and be intentional, and every line has to grab the recruiter’s attention.

33:17 AL-HUSEIN

Number three, limited formatting but intentional bolding. So you want to limit the formatting that you have.

33:27 AL-HUSEIN

So it doesn’t mean bold every line, underline every major category. No.

33:35 AL-HUSEIN

You should limit the bolding. limit the bolding, limit the formatting, and it should be very intentional. Why? Because eight seconds, you have eight seconds for a recruiter to create a impression based on a black and white piece of paper.

33:51 AL-HUSEIN

And if things are bolded, you’re distracting them, you’re distracting their eye.

33:57 AL-HUSEIN

And they’re not printing it out, by the way, they’re seeing it on a screen.

34:00 AL-HUSEIN

Okay. Okay.

34:02 AL-HUSEIN

And this is before they go to your LinkedIn and see your picture and see all the other stuff. So you’ve got to make it count. Those eight seconds have to count.

34:11 AL-HUSEIN

So I would encourage you to not bold more than six to 12 things on a resume. Six to 12 things max. No underlining and only bold six to 12 things.

34:24 AL-HUSEIN

Number four, metrics. If you are applying to a job and it has no metrics,

34:32 AL-HUSEIN

We will be showing some examples. And you can also see them in the course. If you’re applying to jobs and you do not have metrics on your resume, you will not be hired. Data is the new gold.

34:45 AL-HUSEIN

Data is the new gold. Yes, you should bold. Six to 12 things you should bold. Data is the new gold. So you have to measure. If you’re not measuring what matters, the principles that you’re supporting, by the way, are measuring everything. They’re being asked to measure everything. So if you’re not measuring things yourself,

34:59 AL-HUSEIN

and you’re not including hard numbers, metrics are hard numbers in your resume, it’s a fail, okay? I need to see in a data sense what you have done, distill it into data.

35:16 AL-HUSEIN

And lastly, the fifth tenet is your resume should be AI compliant.

35:21 AL-HUSEIN

What does that mean?

35:23 AL-HUSEIN

It should be machine learning and artificial intelligence compliant. It means that if you are applying to a large corporation, call it a multinational, a company with over 20,000 people, maybe 40,000 people,

35:37 AL-HUSEIN

I’m not talking about a company with less than 1,000 people or less than a few thousand people. I’m talking about companies with over 20,000 people, over maybe 10,000 people. Believe me when I say that your resume is being fed through a computer and it is being matched against the job description and it’s given a number.

35:56 AL-HUSEIN

So like large companies, the ones I’ve worked for in the past, Google’s got over 100,000 employees.

36:04 AL-HUSEIN

Facebook Meta has over 100,000 employees. Well, they have to hire 50 software engineers, 20 executive assistants, 100 salespeople.

36:16 AL-HUSEIN

What they’re doing is they’re feeding your resume through a machine, and it’s spitting out a number. And it’s basically saying, compared to the job description, this person’s resume is a 98. They’ve hit 98% of all the things that are listed on the job description. Or this person’s resume is a 28%.

36:33 AL-HUSEIN

We’ve asked for an eight years experience. We’ve counted it all up. They only have seven.

36:38 AL-HUSEIN

Fail. We’ve asked for in the job description that they’ve supported a technology company. They have not supported a technology company. Their score is low. Fail. So before the recruiter is even seeing the resume, for larger companies, again, companies with over, say, 10,000 employees, they’re feeding it through an AI system. And the AI system is spinning back a number and then whittling down the first batch for the recruiter.

37:03 AL-HUSEIN

I would even go as far as to say, going back to number four in terms of metrics and data, if you are not using AI in your current role, and I don’t mean just like converting your Google searches to AI searches. I’m talking about actually using AI.

37:20 AL-HUSEIN

I would encourage you to start using AI. And I would encourage you to utilize AI and have stories of AI usage in your resume and in your interviewing.

37:32 AL-HUSEIN

A quick sidebar here. Like I said, I’ve been an executive assistant, and I’m now an HR leader.

37:41 AL-HUSEIN

Every interview that we do in my company, we ask every candidate, how do you use artificial intelligence today in your role? And if they do not have an answer, we do not move them to the next round, even executive assistant roles.

37:59 AL-HUSEIN

Even executive assistants that we’ve hired in the Philippines.

38:04 AL-HUSEIN

So I’ve hired executive assistants in the Philippines. I’m asking this question to them as well. So you better believe I’m going to ask it of Americans.

38:13 AL-HUSEIN

So this is the way the world is moving. And it’s very important that you have a vignette, a story about that and how it has impacted your job in a very positive way.

38:25 AL-HUSEIN

Okay. All right.

38:29 AL-HUSEIN

So we can move now to the next. So those are like the kind of core tenants of a resume. Now we’re going to move to like the seven sections of your eight and a half by 11 piece of paper that is in black and white that has to create a dopamine hit to Michelle, who’s 28 years old, who scrolls up and down and left and right on this thing all day. And you’re trying to get her attention. So she calls you and puts you in the pile of people she wants to have a phone call with.

38:53 AL-HUSEIN

And by the way, when you have that phone call with Michelle or that Zoom call or Teams video call, and you don’t show up the way her expectation is you will based on the words on your resume, that’s also a fail, which is why you need to have stories, vignettes around every line of your resume, right? As a quick sidebar here, what’s the number one question recruiters ask you that I ask you when I interview you for a role? The first thing we do is say, walk me through your resume.

39:23 AL-HUSEIN

It’s the easiest question. Walk me through your resume. You’ve probably heard it 100 times. Tell me about yourself. Walk me through your resume. Tell me about your latest experience. Why are you looking?

39:36 AL-HUSEIN

If you don’t have a story that pops and is memorable to that question, it’s a fast pass. So your resume has to answer that question And when the recruiter asks you that question in the phone screen, when you go from the 300 people to the 100 people to now the 20 people that she’s having an actual conversation with, if your answer to her question is not memorable and does not resonate in a way a story should,

40:21 AL-HUSEIN

the recruiter is likely gonna pass, okay?

40:23 AL-HUSEIN

All right, so the seven sections of your resume, right? Now, why do, like I’ve created this resume template and Jeremy will show an example here.

40:34 AL-HUSEIN

This is a resume template that has seven sections in it. And this is the stuff that you’ll see in my course, right?

40:42 AL-HUSEIN

There’s seven sections. There’s a top section, your bio data section. There’s a second section called the attribute section.

40:49 AL-HUSEIN

The third section is the core skill set.

40:52 AL-HUSEIN

The fourth is notable impact. Notice the reduction in terms of bolding.

41:00 AL-HUSEIN

The fifth is the walk me through your resume section.

41:05 AL-HUSEIN

the experience. The sixth is your education. And the seventh is your passions, right?

41:11 AL-HUSEIN

All right. Notice like, just, just, just, just the section terms. I’m not talking about hobbies. I’m talking about passions. I’m not talking about, um,

41:22 AL-HUSEIN

I’m not listing every single thing I’ve done here in terms of experience. I’m listing the relevant experience for the role. If they want more, they can go to LinkedIn. I’m not talking about, I’m talking, I’m using phrases like impact. I’m using, I’m not, I’m not using phrases like experience, right? I’m using phrases like impact and notice like even things like my, my first name or my, the, you know, my name is not bolded.

41:47 AL-HUSEIN

I don’t have an address on my resume. I do have a city.

41:51 AL-HUSEIN

I don’t have a Yahoo email address. I don’t have an Outlook email address. I don’t have a AOL email address. I have a Gmail address.

42:02 AL-HUSEIN

If you have a Hotmail address, a Yahoo address, go get a Gmail address. People have biases and they want people who are technologically forward.

42:14 AL-HUSEIN

Again, my job here is not to make you feel bad. My job here is to get you a job. And I’m telling you the reality of the world. Michelle, who’s 28 years old, doesn’t have a Yahoo email address.

42:29 AL-HUSEIN

Probably has a Gmail address. Most companies are either on Outlook or Gmail.

42:36 AL-HUSEIN

Most corporations in America. iCloud address is fine.

42:43 AL-HUSEIN

Notice Proton is great. Anything that’s superhuman is great. Anything that is tech forward.

42:52 AL-HUSEIN

Tech forward. Anything that gives you an edge.

42:56 AL-HUSEIN

Anything that gives you an edge.

42:58 AL-HUSEIN

Notice I’ve typed out the entire LinkedIn. I did not shorten it to just like, you know, just the word LinkedIn with a hyperlink. No, I typed out the whole LinkedIn. Why? For AI. Also notice I don’t have an address.

43:10 AL-HUSEIN

If the job is in San Francisco and I live in San Jose, I need a resume that says San Francisco. Okay. Why? Because the recruiter is going to say, oh, San Jose, that’s over an hour commute. Pass.

43:22 AL-HUSEIN

OK, you need to make sure in those eight seconds the recruiter is going to choose you for that 20 minute conversation. You’re basically giving her reasons to cross your name off of a list. She’s looking for reasons to cross your name off of a list.

43:41 AL-HUSEIN

OK, also, when you have, nobody cares about your name, by the way.

43:48 AL-HUSEIN

So stop bolding your name. Stop wasting formatting on your name.

43:53 AL-HUSEIN

Michelle only cares about your name when she sets up the interview. She doesn’t care about your name. She doesn’t care how you spell it. She doesn’t care how cool it looks and how big it looks and if it’s bolded. She doesn’t care.

44:06 AL-HUSEIN

You’ve got to prompt her psychologically, subliminally, to start thinking about you positively as she walks through your resume. So you give her these attributes.

44:19 AL-HUSEIN

And this is all surrounded by white text. Notice it’s all white.

44:24 AL-HUSEIN

It pops. Jack of all trades, service heart, chaos tamer, I save you time, period. All of this pops. It really screams at her.

44:35 AL-HUSEIN

Surrounded by white text. Then you have the core skill set section. And I can go into more detail there in the course. You also have the notable impact section. I can go into more detail there. This is where you must have metrics. Here’s some example of metrics.

44:53 AL-HUSEIN

I’m conscious of time. I’m getting pinged by Jeremy about the time, so I need to quicken this. Of course, all this is detailed in the course. I want to just highlight a couple of things.

45:07 AL-HUSEIN

You have to create a connection with the recruiter.

45:12 AL-HUSEIN

You have to create a connection with the recruiter.

45:15 AL-HUSEIN

Because at the end of the day, people want to work with people they like and that they have a connection with.

45:21 AL-HUSEIN

So use your passion section to do just that. Research.

45:27 AL-HUSEIN

The recruiter on LinkedIn. Say you apply to a company that’s like, I don’t know, 500 people. And they have like two recruiters. And you go on their LinkedIn and then you find them on Facebook and you notice that they both have dogs. Okay, so you love dogs too. So put it in the passion section.

45:43 AL-HUSEIN

Right?

45:44 AL-HUSEIN

Connect with them. Give them something to talk about outside of the core job.

45:52 AL-HUSEIN

Right? Say something that is, you know…

45:58 AL-HUSEIN

sparks curiosity you’re into biohacking put in biohacking okay nobody cares like i’m a film producer and it was emmy nominated i don’t nobody cares about the name of the film it’s just that it was emmy nominated so i put in the word emmy nominated right so that’s something that’s really interesting that most executive assistants don’t have right if you’re applying to a fintech firm a finance firm and you’re into crypto put in crypto

46:27 AL-HUSEIN

Right? Create some kind of immediate bond with the human on the other side.

46:38 AL-HUSEIN

So these tips, to answer the question, are helpful for getting through both an ATS and human screening, but specifically for when you are applying directly to the company, not going through an executive recruiting firm, or you’re applying to the company via LinkedIn.

46:56 AL-HUSEIN

OK, the last thing I’m going to say here before I give it up to Jeremy as we’re coming up on time is remember, you have eight seconds to create differentiation between you and 99 other resumes.

47:16 AL-HUSEIN

The goal of the resume is to secure a phone screen. The goal is not to get a job. It’s not to communicate everything you’ve ever done.

47:25 AL-HUSEIN

Let that be the second link that they click on when it’s LinkedIn or the third link when they go to your Facebook page, et cetera.

47:33 AL-HUSEIN

The goal is to capture the recruiter’s attention, capture their curiosity. So they’re like, wow, this person is so cool. I want to spend time with them. I want to spend 20 minutes at 9 a.m. on Monday morning talking to this person.

47:48 AL-HUSEIN

That’s the goal. A good thing for you to consider is creating a resume.

47:57 AL-HUSEIN

Maybe you create one like this. Show it to somebody who is 28 years old, 30 years old, and say, what does this resume say to you?

48:07 AL-HUSEIN

And get their immediate reaction and don’t let them look for longer than eight seconds. And I will guarantee you, if you take your traditional resume versus this one or one like this, they will probably more want to have a conversation with the person whose resume looks like this. Thank you.

48:26 JEREMY

All right. Thanks again for tuning in. I hope that was helpful. Again, go to leaderassistant.com/resume. Use the promo code CRAFT, C-R-A-F-T, at leaderassistant.com/resume to get 50% off the resume course.

In this episode of The Leader Assistant Podcast, Ashley Langlais, Chief of Staff at DVx Ventures, shares her unique approach to being a strategic partner to a CEO. Ashley details her journey in supporting her CEO through a “big first,” such as writing his first book, making his goal her own from day one. 

Jeremy and Ashley chat about how to provide support beyond calendar management for major initiatives like book writing, speechwriting, keynote prep, and internal/external messaging. Ashley also covers the Chief of Staff/EA role as a true strategic partner and shares valuable lessons learned for next time.

Resources:

• Who by Geoff Smart and Randy Street
• The Algorithm by Jon McNeill

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What problem are we trying to solve?

CONNECT WITH ASHLEY

• • Ashley on LinkedIn

ABOUT ASHLEY

Ashley Langlais is Chief of Staff to the CEO at DVx Ventures, a venture studio, where she joined as the first hire in 2020 to partner with the CEO and co-founders. Ashley started her career at Cambridge Associates supporting VC/PE leaders, then supported senior principals at ghSMART, the leadership advisory firm behind the widely adopted WHO method.

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EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

Hey friends, welcome to the Leader Assistant Podcast. It’s your host, Jeremy Burrows, and this is episode 381. You can check out the show notes for this conversation at leaderassistant.com/381. Today, I am really excited to be speaking with Ashley Langlais. Ashley Langlais is chief of staff at DVx Ventures.

00:00:46 
And we’ve got a fun conversation in store for you. So first off, welcome to the show, Ashley.

00:00:53 
Thank you. Thanks for having me.

00:00:56 
What part of the world are you in and what do you like to do when you’re not working?

00:01:00 
I am right outside of Boston.

00:01:04 
And when I’m not working, I have a four-year-old son named Remy. And so I feel like I’m still, like, maybe still considered a new mom. So I think, like, just doing things with him, like playgrounds and aquariums and zoos, I feel like my whole spare time is focused on that. So it’s been fun.

00:01:28 
Awesome. That’s great. You said four? Yeah.

00:01:32 
He’s four, yeah.

00:01:33 
Four, wow. That’s a fun age. Mine are 12 and 14 now, so it’s been a while.

00:01:39 
Oh, yeah. So, yeah, yeah, yeah. Do you have boys?

00:01:42 
Yes, yes.

00:01:43 
Yeah, so, yeah. So, you know the physical nature.

00:01:49 
Oh, yes.

00:01:50 
And the high energy that you deal with. Yep.

00:01:55 
Love it. Well, tell us a little bit about your career. What, how did you get started in the support roles? Did you, were you an assistant before you were, you were a chief of staff and tell us a little bit about your career journey.

00:02:10 
Um, so out of college I had a few like admin roles in various industries. Like I was in media right outside of college and I worked in a hospital for a few years. Um,

00:02:24 
But I’d say I was an admin assistant at Cambridge Associates, which is a investment consulting firm.

00:02:35 
And I think there’s where I really like found my career.

00:02:40 
So I was an admin assistant there, supported like eight executives across like three teams. It was kind of crazy. And I felt like

00:02:50 
Yeah, and I felt like I couldn’t make an impact on the executives themselves. And that’s the part of the job that I really liked. And surprisingly, I didn’t even know that an executive assistant role existed. But because that was the part of the job that I liked, I was doing some research, speaking to recruiters, and I found the executive assistant role. And I was like, that’s exactly the role that I want.

00:03:16 
So after Cambridge, I worked at GH Smart, which is a boutique consulting firm. They consult on human capital. I don’t know if you’ve ever come across like the who method for hiring in your… I don’t know. Maybe if you kind of give me the short summary, it’ll… It’s just like, it’s like an approach to hiring, you know, just like one of the approaches that like, you know, people in that space use.

00:03:46 
Um, and side note, their book, Jeff’s Martin Randy streets book, who is very good, highly recommend.

00:03:55 
Um, and that like explains the method, but anyway, so they created that method and they’re just, I loved my time there. I supported two principals, loved them, loved the EA team. It was remote before COVID. So their model is like freedom and flexibility. And,

00:04:16 
I just, they were just, like, such forward thinkers. Love them. Anyways.

00:04:20 
I was there for about four years, and then an EA that I worked with previously, we reconnected, and she said, oh, I heard of this really cool executive that’s looking for an assistant. And I was like, well, I’m not really looking for a job, you know, whatever. And she was like, I would really encourage you to have a conversation with him. So I looked at his profile, and I’m like, okay, the former president of Tesla, the former COO of Lyft. I was like…

00:04:50 
if he, if this wants to have a conversation with me, then sure. I’ll have a conversation with him. Um, so I did. And that’s like where it all started during the interview. My CEO now is like, you know, I’m on this board. I’m an advisory partner over here. You know, I’m doing this project. Oh, and I’m starting a venture studio. And I just couldn’t like, I was just like, I couldn’t not take this opportunity to like,

00:05:19 
do all these exciting things with him. So it’s been six years now at DBX. Um, we built it to like, we’ve launched 12 companies. We have about like a hundred employees across the portfolio. Um, so yeah, it’s been, it’s been kind of like a wild ride.

00:05:36 
Wow. That’s awesome.

00:05:37 
Yeah.

00:05:39 
So was the, when you first started working with the current executive, was the title executive assistant and then it morphed to chief staff or did it start with chief of staff?

00:05:49 
Correct. No, it was executive assistant, um, sort of like, like manager of the CEO office, basically. Um, so yeah, when I started, I supported him and then the other founders. Um, so it started as three founders and then we hired another, we took on another partner. So we had four, um, and I was primarily supporting the CEO and then just like other, you know, like

00:06:17 
lightly supporting the others, I’d say, until it got, like, a little heavy, and I recommended hiring another executive assistant to take on two of the partners.

00:06:28 
So that’s kind of where we’re at now. The chief of staff role happened because I think it was about two years into it, I sort of just, like, asked to…

00:06:44 
Really like changed my title. The the the reason was I felt like it was branding for me um

00:06:52 
like I needed the brand, as awful as it sounds, like for external people and also like inside because I was doing so many different things. Like I was sending out, you know, offer letters to people and like salary changes to people or, you know, telling the CEOs of our portfolio companies like, we need this, this, and this from you. And I just felt like, so internally I needed that branding. And then externally, like I was speaking to like lawyers and tax consultants and, um, you know, all of those external resources, I felt like I just, I needed that branding in order to, I don’t know, not taken seriously, but just like, so they understood why they are on the phone with me, if that makes sense.

00:07:44 
No, that makes total sense. And I like that you, you know, you were able to present that business case and that your executive was supportive of it too.

00:07:53 
Yeah, absolutely. You know, like I think, you know, I was like doing the role without the title. And so I was like, I need the title in order to like bring it all together.

00:08:04 
Awesome. Awesome.

00:08:05 
Yeah. Yeah.

00:08:06 
Well, that’s super great. It sounds like a fun, adventurous career. Thanks for sharing. And, you know, today I would really like to dive into really a overall concept of supporting the goals of your CEO, supporting the goals of your executive team. But specifically, you know, you reached out and we connected because your support of your CEO kind of went to a specific project of publishing a book, publishing and writing. Your CEO wrote his first book, right? Yeah. Yeah.

00:08:46 
You were very, very involved in that. And so I want to kind of walk through that journey. And if you’re listening and you’re like, my executive would never write a book. If they did, no one would want to read it.

00:09:00 
That’s okay. There’s probably other goals that your executive has that you can own as your own goals and you can help them execute and reach those goals. So even if it’s not specifically a book, I think this is going to be a helpful conversation, but I’m also excited to chat with you, Ashley, because I’ve helped my former executive. I helped publish books and, you know, it’s kind of part of that whole process. And then my current executive has tons of ideas, but one of those is also publishing a book. So,

00:09:36 
This is very relevant to me and my assistant role. And again, if assistants listening, if you’re executives, maybe not writing a book, there’s probably some big project that they want to do that you can learn a lot about in this conversation. So let’s start with what was it like supporting your CEO through writing his first book?

00:09:58 
It was not what I expected it to be. I know you’re not a stranger to this process and that world, so you’ll be familiar with everything that I say, but I just felt like it was going to be a lot more straightforward.

00:10:18 
easier. I wasn’t ready for how complex the publishing world is. And not just that there’s so many different avenues in which to publish a book nowadays, but also there’s so many different players.

00:10:37 
You need the editor and the agent and the ghostwriter and the publicist. And it was just like so many different players. So I think navigating the industry was the first step and also like one of the most challenging parts of the process.

00:10:56 
Gotcha. Gotcha. So let’s actually, I’m curious. So when did the, when did the idea first hit your desk? Like when was it like, Hey, you know, I’m going to write a book and by the way, you’re going to help me.

00:11:09 
Yeah. So we were in our annual partnership review. That’s what I call my annual reviews. Because I think it’s helpful to position it that way so that you can get as much information from your executive in terms of goals and priorities for the year. So we were talking about goals. And he said, this year, my goal is to write a book. And at that point, it became my goal for the year. And so I was like, all right, let’s do this.

00:11:41 
So that’s when it happened. I think, like I said, it was challenging because neither of us are from the publishing world, and we don’t have direct contacts in that world, but he has a huge network, and I feel like I have a decent network in my own right, and so I thought between the two of us, I would connect with somebody and they would be like, oh sure, here’s my agent or here’s my editor. And it’s done. But it didn’t happen that way. And so I had to do a lot of research and speak to a lot of different people in the space and near the space in order to really understand that world and to really find the right team for us.

00:12:31 
yeah what was the like the the publishing side so with my executive my former executive you know he had i think when i started working with him he had already published a book that had done pretty decent so he was talking to publishers but then for me personally with my book the leader assistant

00:12:56 
I was I had not published anything. I was kind of getting going and I had done a bunch of research and I had a friend that had done self publishing with a publishing partner that kind of helps you through the process, but doesn’t actually own the rights to the book or distribute it necessarily. They just kind of help you get through the self publishing process. So how did you guys determine whether or not you would self publish or traditional publish?

00:13:25 
Yeah, so great question.

00:13:29 
Again, I didn’t know that there were different approaches to publishing. I thought traditional was the way to go.

00:13:36 
That’s where I sort of started. So like our initial approach was like my CEO is a fantastic writer, but you know, he has a day job and he doesn’t necessarily have all this time and just a hundred percent focus to the book. So like we, we were like, we need a ghost writer or coauthor, someone to help him write the book. So our approach was to find a coauthor that came with relationships and knowledge of the process.

00:14:02 
Right? That was difficult to find.

00:14:07 
Because, and I talked to many and first of all, they’re hard to find because they’re ghostwriters, right? Like, um, but I did speak to some and some, you know, were either in between projects or just weren’t a great fit for my CEO or, um, one of them that I talked to was like, his platform’s not big enough. And, you know, he’s, he’s going up against Michelle Obama’s book. Like, you know, build the, build the platform and then come back. And I’m like, wait a minute, like he has to be a celebrity or like a former first lady to write a book, like what?

00:14:48 
So I don’t know. So that avenue just, I felt like wasn’t working. So that is when I did some research into things like hybrid publishing and self-publishing.

00:14:59 
But my CEO really wanted to make sure that the traditional route with a top publisher, with a healthy advance was off the table before we did something else, at least for his first book.

00:15:14 
you know? Um, so how I, so how I ended up finding somebody, do you want to hear?

00:15:23 
So he had sent me this article that I think he read from like the information. Um, and the article was something like, here are the ghostwriters behind bestsellers and it featured five. And so I, and their contact information was like listed or their website or So I reached out to two of them that had the most bestsellers among the five and had a business book in their library.

00:15:51 
And one of them, the one that responded, her name is Carly Adler. She coauthored Mark Benioff’s book, Behind the Clouds, I think it is, and Maynard Webb’s book. And I’m like, there’s no way that these people are going to respond to me.

00:16:08 
Not to me, to John, because I reached out as my CEO with the pitch. But she did, and she was all about the idea and was very welcoming to have a call with me.

00:16:25 
Um, but she was working on another project and we kind of went back and forth for a few months. And then she finally, she was, she was finally like, I’m not available, but I believe in the book. And so introduced us to our now agent.

00:16:40 
Gotcha. Gotcha.

00:16:41 
So like the initial approach ended up working. It just took a few repetitions.

00:16:48 
Right. Yeah. And it’s not like you had like a.

00:16:52 
It was a little bit of a roundabout way, right? Like it wasn’t like, oh, you know, go here, do this, do this.

00:16:57 
It just kind of had to… Totally roundabout. And also like, don’t be afraid to cold call because you never know who’s going to pick up the phone. Like I kind of can’t believe that she did.

00:17:08 
Nice. So, OK, so you got that you you worked with an agent.

00:17:14 
Did you then start writing or did you try to get the agreement with the publisher first? Like, how did that happen? Like, was it even a was it even a like, did the agent think, oh, we can get a deal? Or was this kind of like, well, we’ll see. And you know what I mean? Like before you, I guess before you moved forward with the project, you had to figure out is it going to end up a traditional project?

00:17:43 
Yeah. Yeah, totally. And so like a book proposal is something that you need. So like, I think, I think the way, like the process is to get the agent, then you write the proposal and you shop that around to the publishers. Um, but because we were looking while I was looking into other avenues, like hybrid publishing or something like that, like,

00:18:06 
within those few months, like we pretty much had wrote the proposal because we had, we like wrote the pitch to sort of get people interested. And then, you know, I added all of the things that you need in a proposal, like how big my CEO’s platform is and all of like the media appearances he’s edited, whatever. So once we got the agent, we pretty much did have that proposal. The agent was pretty, he was like pretty certain that, um, it would get, it would get a deal.

00:18:38 
Um, yeah, I don’t, I don’t know if that’s, if that’s, you know, a different experience than, than you had, but yeah, he was pretty, he was pretty certain. I don’t know if he only takes on books that he’s certain about or what, but.

00:18:51 
Right. Okay.

00:18:52 
Yeah.

00:18:53 
So then you, you were like, all right, we’re going to do this. So then you started submitting the proposal to different, different publishers.

00:19:00 
Yeah, so yeah, so the agent, okay, so as I said, like there’s many different players. The agent I found is like, that’s the person that does connect you to the publisher to get the deal. But they’re also, and I don’t know if this is true of all agents, but this one in particular was like,

00:19:21 
the one that guided us through the process, like anytime we had questions or wanted recommendations or wanted guidance, like that was the one that we went to. It seemed like he, like the agents kind of like looking out for the author. I don’t, I don’t know if that’s like everybody’s experience, but ours was really good in that sort of way. So yeah. So he connected us to the publishers and, um, and we got a few offers and then, you know,

00:19:52 
took one of them.

00:19:53 
So that’s great.

00:19:54 
Yeah. Yeah.

00:19:56 
What would you say? So if there is assistance, you know, listening that are like, Hey, my executive wants to write a book as well, their audience, they’re thinking, okay, their audience is the size or their, their reach is this far.

00:20:12 
Is there, are there kind of some ballpark numbers or ballpark, um, you know, goals for an executive’s reach that that those listening could maybe help their executives aspire to to try and

00:20:27 
you know, get to the level, I guess, if you will, of where a publisher would actually consider it? Or does your experience, was there any sort of like, hey, if you have, you know, an email list of 30,000 or if you have a LinkedIn following of 50,000, are there any sort of benchmarks that you saw during that process that were like, oh, this would help?

00:20:48 
I mean, that’s what, when I was talking to that ghostwriter, like, that’s what she was saying, that you need, like, a newsletter of, like, thousands and you know 50 000 linkedin and twitter following um when once got like but carly didn’t think that um the one that ended up like connecting us with the agent she didn’t

00:21:12 
She was like, I’m actually surprised that you got that feedback. I think the contents of the book is pretty interesting in its own right. Your CEO does have a decent following. It’s not mind blowing, but he’s on CNBC regularly as a commentator. He is out there.

00:21:36 
I will say, though, we did take some time. So we hired a comms team. We have, like, a contractor comms team that worked to build my CEO’s brand even before, like, the book. So, yeah, so they did, like, increase his followers on, like, LinkedIn. But, you know, it’s, like, 15,000. It’s not, like, 50. And they did, like, increase his…

00:22:06 
like his media hits and his appearances in media, like thought leadership, um, op-eds and stuff like they, they helped with that. So they did like boost his brand a little bit. And I do think that that probably is helpful.

00:22:22 
Um, you know, if your executive is going to write a book one day.

00:22:27 
Gotcha.

00:22:28 
Awesome. Super helpful. Um,

00:22:32 
Let’s dive into the writing process. So how did you specifically support the writing process?

00:22:39 
So this was interesting too. I think like, so there are a lot of challenges to this project, um, navigating the industry, one of them, but like the second one, and I think this always comes up in our types of roles, but it was like not really knowing my role or how I can support. Cause I’m like the first time support to our first time author. Like, you know, I don’t know what the process looks like and I don’t know where I can be helpful yet. Um, but yeah,

00:23:09 
Go back just a little bit, even before the book came about. So my CEO was speaking at the World Business Forum, a couple of those around the world, and he was writing a speech for it.

00:23:23 
And I felt like this was an area that I could totally help him with, but I’m not quite sure how to write a speech for him. Like, you know what I mean?

00:23:34 
So I asked one of my mentors and I was like, you know, do you have any advice? Like, I really feel like this is a place where I can add value, but I’m not quite sure how to go about it.

00:23:43 
I’m not quite sure how to go about it. And she was like, well, you could offer to be like a blank page because that’s always the tough part of the writing process is kind of like, where do I start? So have like a session with him, do a brain dump. You collect the notes, organize them in a way that makes sense.

00:24:03 
and highlight areas that resonate with you and then build off that. So that’s what I offered to my CEO. And my CEO is very self-sufficient.

00:24:14 
I was surprised that he took me up on my offer. Like, he would never ask me to help him with that. Like, he doesn’t know. I don’t think he knows that I could be helpful in that type of a scenario, right? So he said yes, and so I was thrilled. I got, like, my foot in the door to help him with something else, expand my role. And…

00:24:36 
And so, but he are, so he sent me what he had and he pretty much already had the outline. Like what he needed was kind of like to fill in the gaps with like stories that sort of like illustrate the points that he’s making in the speech, if that makes sense.

00:24:53 
And so those, so, so we had like a, a riff session on that. I’ve, I watched like all the podcasts, all of the YouTube videos that are out there on them. I took like eight, Any kind of like notes that I felt like in meetings could be an example of something we could like elaborate on for this speech.

00:25:13 
Um, I like collected all of these examples and then during the riff sesh we like talked about them and just built the content that way or finalized it really So I was already familiar. So the book is is based on that content So it’s already familiar with the content and already kind of like involved in that part of the process um but

00:25:37 
once we got the book deal with the agent also the agent found us a co a co-author so like that’s also a role of an agent also so all right so now my ceo has the co-author he doesn’t really need me to help him with like the writing sessions and everything so like how can i be helpful through this the writing process and so again wasn’t quite sure like what my role looked like in this phase so I just joined everything I could to start so I could figure out like, okay, where are areas where I can be most helpful? So I started like in the writing sessions with my CEO and his co-author. And I was like, I don’t need to be in these writing sessions. You know, like the co-authors got it. Like he’s good at, you know, his job. He knows what he’s doing. But like I can help behind the scenes managing the workflow. Like I want to review all the drafts that come through to make sure, you know,

00:26:32 
you know, um, all the points that my CEO wanted to make are made, or if I have any thoughts of what we could add, um, to like, it get even like more of a robust example or, or something like that. Like I stayed in the, um, I stayed involved just more of like a behind the scenes role.

00:26:55 
Gotcha. Yeah. Nice.

00:26:58 
So did it conflict or I guess one thing I’m thinking through is, you know, you mentioned, you know, your CEO has a day job and you obviously have a day job. So like, how was this just something that…

00:27:15 
you slotted in, right? Like solid in times or, you know, how did that conflict with at times, you know, did you feel like it was, it was pulling you away sometimes from your day job, if you will?

00:27:30 
Yeah, it was, it’s, and even now, because it just, the book just launched on March 24th. So there’s still some like,

00:27:39 
There’s still a lot of promotion going on now.

00:27:42 
I felt like throughout this process, this was probably like a two year process from when my CEO said he wanted to write the book to when it got published, exactly two years. And so it definitely was like periods of heaviness and then periods of not so heaviness. So like during the actual writing of the book,

00:28:07 
it was like more manageable, you know? Um, but I would say like the heaviest part was, um, launch, like promoting for the book. So like pre-launch was the heaviest part because there’s just so many, um,

00:28:25 
like interviews and appearances and travel and everything that, um, my CEO needed to do so that it could all come out around like launch time, you know? And, you know, like I said, like we’re doing, we have investor meetings as you know, same with you. Uh, we have investor meetings and we have like, um,

00:28:47 
he has a bunch of speaking events and we have like internal ops reviews and I see meetings. And so it was, it was a challenging time because there was so many competing priorities for my CEO’s time. Um, and I would say like still now I’m not out of it yet, but, um, yeah, but I think just always going back to like prioritizing, you know, it’s like,

00:29:13 
how does this fit in, in the list of priority? And if it’s not on the list of priority, it doesn’t fit in, you know, I also think there’s something to note too, where, um, well, two things really like during this time, I think to keep in mind that, you know, you’re not just managing your executive’s calendar, but it’s also like you’re managing their energy because they’re not just doing, um,

00:29:41 
Even if it’s not just travel, but it’s like how many pitches can he do in one day? Not just book pitches or promotion, but also like the investor pitches or a speaking event or even like a, you know, a pre-call to a speaking event so that like he’s, you know, he’s brainstorming and having these thoughts. Like how many output, high output meetings can you stack on in one day? Like definitely needed to be more mindful of that than like, you know.

00:30:11 
any other time, I guess. And then also,

00:30:15 
like there was some times where my ceo was feeling like a little burnt out and would be like let’s push that podcast off until post launch and i would push back and be like here are the metrics here’s the recommendation from the publicist like you know how many books are you going to publish in a year this one moves the needle like i’ll try to make your travel as comfortable as possible I’ll stack on other meetings to make your time as efficient as possible. But I really think you should reconsider doing this podcast, you know? So there is like some, some sort of like managing that too, you know?

00:30:55 
Yeah, totally.

00:30:58 
Awesome. Well, what would you say this experience did to change, you know, changed how you thought about or, you know, how you work in your role?

00:31:09 
What was the biggest difference or, yeah, what did this experience do to how you view your role?

00:31:17 
I think that it’s… It made me reflect on the role itself, and it’s kind of like the role is not clearly defined.

00:31:32 
And I think that’s part of it. That’s like the challenge of the role is that it’s not clearly defined, but it’s also kind of the beauty of the role because.

00:31:40 
you can make it as involved, as strategic, as like impactful as you want. Um, and, and, and that you’re like, your executive gives you the room to operate in.

00:31:54 
Um, and I think like that’s, it’s, it’s exciting, you know? Yeah.

00:31:59 
I love that.

00:32:03 
Well, what to kind of close the loop and thanks for sharing that journey. I know it’s, I’m sitting here, my wheels are spinning because I’m thinking, all right, what am I going to, what parts of this process am I going to have to hit you up for help on for my executive?

00:32:20 
I can only share my experience, which I know, like, I don’t, I don’t know if it’s like, you know, a cookie cutter experience across the board. So, but I’m happy to share and help how I can. Yeah.

00:32:31 
Awesome. But to wrap it up, I would love to hear kind of

00:32:36 
the high level from your experience, what do you feel makes you effective in the role of chief of staff? And maybe even just a tidbit for those listening who are currently in the assistant role, or maybe they’re in the chief of staff role with the assistant title. Yeah. Yeah. What would you say is, yeah. What’s made you effective in that role?

00:33:01 
I think like, yeah,

00:33:05 
For me, the role was earned by like creating value. And the best way that I was able to create value was through access. And so I think like…

00:33:20 
that’s kind of like first and foremost is to like gain that access. So like asked to be in meetings, asked to be looped into conversations, asked to be part of a project that might not be in your wheelhouse because like you’re going to gain context and business knowledge and you’re going to be able to create value with that knowledge, you know, like, um,

00:33:45 
Knowledge is power. That’s always what I think. But the way that I ask for that access is not like, hey, do you think I should join the board meeting? It’s, would you mind if I join the board meeting so I can take notes, track action items, and gain context?

00:34:03 
And if you position it that way, I’ve never been told no. And then when you start adding value…

00:34:11 
based on like the information that you’re getting from those meetings. And you don’t even have to ask to be in them anymore because like you’re expected to be in them.

00:34:21 
That’s well said. That’s awesome.

00:34:24 
Thank you so much, Ashley, for your time and keep up the great work and your support for your CEO and your team. And what’s the best place for people to reach out if they want to just connect and say hi?

00:34:39 
LinkedIn probably is the best place. Yeah. Yeah.

00:34:43 
Great. Well, I’ll put your LinkedIn link in the show notes at leaderassistant.com/381.

00:34:56 
And check out all the links in the bio and all that fun stuff in the show notes. So thanks again, Ashley. Really appreciate your time. Thank you, everyone, for listening. Keep up the good work and we’ll talk soon.

Amber Youngren is the executive assistant and office manager lead at Forged Fiber 37. In this episode of The Leader Assistant Podcast, Amber discusses the evolving role of the Executive Assistant. She shares how EAs can become strategic leaders by developing skills for operations and Chief of Staff roles, building deep trust, managing up, and acting as the organization’s ultimate connector to translate observations into actionable insight and bring alignment across teams.

LEADERSHIP QUOTE

The most important thing in communication is hearing what isn’t said.

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ABOUT AMBER

Amber Youngren is executive assistant and office manager lead at Forged Fiber 37. She began her career in hospice nursing and brings over 20 years of experience in healthcare, most recently in administration for ambulatory care and pediatric surgery. Amber has more than 25 years of expertise supporting CEOs and senior executives across healthcare and technology sectors, driving strategic initiatives and operational excellence. She holds a Bachelor of Science in Business Administration and is dedicated to fostering executive alignment and producing exceptional outcomes across the organization.

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EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

AMBER
Thanks so much for having me. I’m very excited to be here today.

JEREMY
Awesome. What city are you in?

AMBER
So I’m in Littleton. So basically a suburb of Denver.

JEREMY
Love it. Love it. My brother’s in Arvada. Okay.

AMBER
Yeah. Yep. That’s just north of me. Do you due north of where i live so yeah nice so we’re gonna get into a lot of good stuff today but before we dive in what is your favorite thing to do when you’re not working so um outside of work i’m a huge live music person um concerts are my happy place and my taste is really all over the place so

AMBER
I love classic rock. I love metal. I love a select few pop artists. And then on the complete other side of the spectrum, I also love live musicals as well. So just being in that theater and then hearing that first note hit really just gives me chills every time. So, yeah. Nice.

JEREMY
Awesome. And then do you have any pets or kids or none of these?

AMBER
I have like a whole slew of both. So I have two adult sons and one adult stepdaughter. And then they’re all grown and out of the house and doing their thing. And then we also have two doggies at home. We have a chocolate lab and we have a boxer and husky mix. So they keep us super happy every day. They’re so sweet.

JEREMY
Nice. Love it.

JEREMY
Well, let’s jump into your career journey. For the last several years have been working toward um moving up in the executive assistant world. And part of that was going back to school to finish my degree that I had started over 20 years ago. I’m like, it’s time. I want to finish it so that I can use this and really build up. So I did that, got my Bachelor of Science in Business Administration not too long ago.

AMBER
But I had that clear goal. I wanted to grow and and really move toward kind of an EA kind of chief of staff type of role.

AMBER
So that’s what drew me to the current title that I hold right now, which is really, it’s a position that is super exciting because it kind of straddles the worlds of executive assistant in the traditional sense, and then also a lot of chief of staff. type of day-to-day responsibilities as well. So yeah.

JEREMY
Gotcha. Nice.

JEREMY
let’s go back in time a little bit now. Why, why did you get into the assistant role or what is your favorite part about it? Like when did you see it as a career, all those things?

AMBER
Yeah. So, um, my path to the EA role definitely was not linear, um, I had actually started my career, as you had mentioned, in hospice nursing, which has really shaped just so much of what I think about care and support in the human side of health care.

AMBER
So eventually I did move into the corporate world for a little while and realized that I had this natural ability to bring order back.

AMBER
structure and this calmness to fast-paced environments. And so that’s what led me into the executive support roles over the years. So that’s how that came about. And I think my most, I would say a favorite part of it being really the unpredictable nature of it, right? I think so many people would probably say that as well, where you do have some predictable parts of your day, but a lot of it can be unpredictable.

AMBER
I don’t know how many days at the end of the day I thought as I’m heading home, I’m like, that’s definitely not what I thought I was going to be working on today. But it was certainly, you know, a great change of pace and it’s just very satisfying. Yeah.

JEREMY
Yeah, that’s one of my favorite parts. It’s like, you’re never bored, right? You’re never… No.

JEREMY
There are some assistant roles that might be a little more boring than others, but… True, true. There’s never a dull moment, for sure.

AMBER
Right.

JEREMY
Awesome. Well, what about the chief, you mentioned chief of staff, you know, obviously your title is unique with the strategic commercial assistant, but what skills do you think that you developed to essentially open the doors for this operations or chief of staff type role going from gatekeeper to strategic leader?

AMBER
Sure, sure.

AMBER
So I think when assistants start thinking about moving into operations or chief of staff work, the skills that matter most are the ones that you can operate beyond the day to day and actually influence how the organization runs. So it’s less about mastering every tool and process and more about demonstrating that you can see that whole system.

AMBER
And not just your corner of it. So I think what really would open some of those doors would be the ability to think in patterns and connections.

AMBER
When you can look at a situation and understand how one decision will ripple across teams and timelines and priorities.

AMBER
And leaders start to see you as somebody who can operate at a higher level. altitude when you start showing those.

AMBER
So I think also maybe decision support is another big one. So if you’re already the person that your executive turns to when they need like context or clarity or a quick read on the situation, I think that’s a sign that you’re building the right muscles that you would want to have for these type of positions. And

AMBER
Maybe another one I would add is maybe cross-functional influence being kind of a third pillar. So it’s about getting people aligned, moving in the same direction, and following through. So when you can bring that clarity to really ambiguous situations,

AMBER
You can get groups unstuck and without, you know, being that actual CEO position, you just have that line of sight across multiple departments that allows you to have those skills.

JEREMY
Love it. Love it.

JEREMY
So I love the line of sight line. You know, I’ve always thought that we have a very unique perspective on our direct executives that we support on their goals and their problems and the pain points and everything. you know, the drama sometimes, but then also the, the company as a whole, because we see how that interacts and connects with the rest of the company too. So line of sight is a good way to put it like that.

AMBER
Absolutely.

JEREMY
So what about, do you work for a team or with a team of assistants?

JEREMY
Is there a team manager, team lead for the assistants, or are they all kind of just reporting to their executives? Just curious how that works.

AMBER
Right.

AMBER
As far as the company that I’m at right now, we are just in the phase of really growing and expanding. It’s a super exciting time to come on board.

AMBER
I’m an earlier add to the company. And so we don’t have a team of executive assistants. So the team I would say that I work with is really just our executive leadership team. And what I’m super excited about and what I think this whole episode will probably hit on is being able to get to that point where you’re really seen as part of the executive leadership team and not the

AMBER
you support the executive leadership team. So I’ve been very fortunate that my current leader has been very open to expressing internally and externally that I’m part of that team, a working part of that team, and not somebody that is on the outside or the perimeter supporting him.

JEREMY
That’s great. That’s great. So let’s talk a little bit about confidence.

JEREMY
What, how do you have confidence to manage up and really like, you know, you mentioned those, those skills, like decision support and things like that. How do you have confidence to go to your executive and say, Hey, I think we should make this decision or, Hey, you, you need to make a decision. I’ve done some research and I think this is the decision you should go with.

AMBER
Yeah. Yeah. So so managing up is kind of like one of those buzz wordy phrases a little bit. But but what the way I see it is it’s really about creating the conditions for your executive to operate at their highest level. So it’s not about control and it’s not definitely not about people pleasing.

AMBER
So at its core, I think what it is really kind of taking that mental work. off of your executives plate. So they’re constantly bombarded with information, decisions, competing priorities. And so when you can manage up well, you can filter that noise and then surface what matters and then frame things that in a way that it makes them easier to act upon. So, you know, taking the, you know, this messy scattered information and turning it into something digestible for your executives. So,

AMBER
Clear summaries, clear visuals, simple next steps. So you’re not just like kind of passing the buck, passing things along. You’re transforming them into something usable.

JEREMY
Love it.

AMBER
Yeah, I would say that is one of the main things as far as like managing up. And if you’re touching more on, you know, having the confidence to actually bring something to your executive where you

AMBER
some of us may feel a little nervous about bringing something forth as far as, gosh, I really think that my executive needs to do this and I’m not really sure how to say it. without stepping on toes, I just head straight for it and say, and I’ll even use those words sometimes and say, look, I don’t want you to think I’m stepping on your toes because that is not why I’m in your office right now. I’m in your office because I think we need to do A, B, and C. And I think we need to do that because of this situation and really just hit it straight on

AMBER
and let your leader know that you’re not bringing something up to put barriers up or to be confrontational in any sense of the word. It’s really just trying to both align and make sure that they’re aligned with you as well.

JEREMY
Yeah, because it’s not a dramatic, emotional thing. It’s a business conversation, right?

AMBER
Absolutely. Absolutely. Like when you can frame it in a way that it is taking the conversation to

AMBER
a goal that you’re both interested in and trying to take that emotion away from it that that is really helpful to just frame that conversation and literally you know purposely say um you know the the goal of of doing what i think we should do right now is you know a b and c so that it’s very clear why you’re suggesting what you’re suggesting and not um You know, Amber’s being dramatic this afternoon and she is asking for, you know, the following things because she is frustrated with, you know, something or somebody, but it’s really about, you know, getting to the end goal.

JEREMY
Gotcha.

JEREMY
So kind of related to that would be building trust with your executive. Yeah.

AMBER
Yeah.

JEREMY
How have you done that over your career, just building that deep trust between that partnership?

AMBER
Gosh, that’s such an important part of the relationship between an EA and their executive is that deep trust.

AMBER
And it goes beyond, I mean, I’ll mention here in a second, I had some thoughts on discretion, but it goes beyond just that. It’s a mix of

AMBER
consistency, judgment, and the sense that you’re making their world easier and their decisions sharper. So really, reliability is that foundation.

AMBER
Doing what you’ll say you’ll do, following through with what you’re chasing, and then showing that your world is solid. So discretion is definitely an equal layer. Executives need to know that what they share with you stays with you, right? And that you can handle that sensitive information without drama, that you can stay calm and steady.

AMBER
when things get stressful. So definitely just that consistency, good judgment, discretion. And then I think just that kind of last like cherry on the top would be

AMBER
That deeper trust comes when an EA is able to provide that strategic insight. So you’re not just executing tasks, but you’re thinking ahead and you’re spotting patterns and you’re helping your executive make better decisions. So you can become somebody that they lean on. I would say in that moment, it’s when you’re taking a half-formed idea and then giving it back to them clearer and actionable is when you take that step into a deep trust.

JEREMY
Love it. Let’s talk a little bit about what you said earlier about

JEREMY
kind of the cross-functional skills, being a connector for the organization. Can you share a moment when connecting the dots made a big difference?

AMBER
Sure.

AMBER
And there’s really, when I think of connecting the dots on something like this, there’s like three components to that. It’s like spotting tension or friction, and then building a bridge to fix said tension or friction, and then transforming that outcome.

AMBER
The tension, I had noticed some tension going on between some groups here internally where we’ve had a new suite that has opened up with new staff that we’ve moved some people over to a different side of the floor, which opened up a bunch of offices. And, you know, our execs are all running fast, so they certainly are not, you know, honed in on

AMBER
gee, I think so-and-so should have this office and this office. They’re off and doing other things. But I started to hear and see some rumblings of some of the groups thinking or saying, I think my team has been here longer. I think that we should have these offices that have the better windows and those sort of conversations. I’m like, gosh, this is going to possibly bubble up and get noisy and doesn’t really need to. So

AMBER
What I did in connecting those dots is I went ahead and just stepped in and brought those leaders together. So they’re a step below the executive leadership team. They’re directors and managers.

AMBER
Brought them together and we’ve been working the last couple of weeks as far as literally looking at the space plan and talking about strategic direction with their teams. Like how many folks do you have? How many are going to have in three months, six months, in a year?

AMBER
what other teams do you work with most frequently? How do you work mostly together? Are you needing to collaborate often and literally need to share a space sometimes? So instead of fighting over the windows, we’re able to get into a mindset of collaboration and growth.

AMBER
And we’re pretty much at a point right now where we’re about ready to take a

AMBER
kind of finalized version to the executive team to just rubber stamp to say, okay, move forward and get everyone settled in so that they wouldn’t have to deal with it. So it’s really like seeing those ripples across departments.

AMBER
And when you can, you know, trying to keep that noise to a minimum for the executive leaders, it’s certainly something that

that i would be able to handle and and not have it bubble up yeah yeah it’s nice to take initiative see you know see it be aware of it spot it like you said and then figure out okay can we resolve this or at least come up with a plan to resolve it right before you know yeah like i said bubbling up and becoming a big issue with the

AMBER
Exactly. And then, you know, just bringing it to this exec team for them to have the peace of mind that their directors have already, you know, signed off on this. They’ve already been involved. They’re aware so that they know. Great. Now that, you know, some people will be moving offices. I’m not going to have to take this to my director and have them, you know, feel emotional or, you dared be upset with the decisions made, they were already involved in it. So, yeah. Awesome.

JEREMY
Well, Amber, this is great. I know there’s lots of good topics, lots of good lessons learned from a great career in executive support. So I appreciate you taking time to share your story a little bit and share a little bit of insights. My pleasure. Really valuable. To kind of wrap things up, I would love to hear, though, what’s one thing you want every assistant listening to remember?

AMBER
Yes.

AMBER
I would love every EA listening to this particular episode to know that you’re not just supporting leaders, you are a leader. So when you own your own career path, when you’re communicating with clarity, when you’re connecting those dots, when you’re seeing that line of sight, you have become that strategic leader on your team.

JEREMY
Love it. Well said.

JEREMY
Couldn’t have said it better myself, Amber. Thank you so much again for being on the show. What’s a good place for people to reach out if they want to connect and say hi and network?

AMBER
Yeah, absolutely. So they can find me on LinkedIn. Just do a search, I would think, for Amber Youngren, And happy to connect there.

JEREMY
Awesome. Yeah, I’ll put your LinkedIn in the show notes at leaderassistant.com/380.

JEREMY
And yeah, reach out to Amber and say hi. And yeah, appreciate it again. I was telling Amber before the conversation to those listening that I was helping my dad dig a trench in his yard right before the conversation. So it’s nice to sit down and not be doing manual labor for a few minutes while I talk to you.

AMBER
Jeremy was literally in the trenches today.

JEREMY
Exactly. Never a dull moment on the personal front, too, I guess.

AMBER
Yes, indeed.

JEREMY
Awesome. Well, have a good one. Best of luck to you. Hopefully, yeah, we’ll connect in the Colorado area someday and we’ll talk soon.

AMBER
Perfect. Thank you.

Tune into this special episode featuring a rare dual interview between Diana Brandl, award-winning executive assistant Paula Moio and her executive, Louis. Discover the powerful synergy of their four-year working relationship, built on radical trust, open dialogue, and Louis’ strong belief that “assistants must be leaders.”

They share how emotional intelligence and cultural adaptation are critical in modern administration, and why future EAs must continuously add value beyond routine tasks to lead the profession.

Don’t miss this inspiring conversation on leadership, trust, and the human side of the evolving executive office.

CONNECT WITH PAULA

• Paula on LinkedIn

ABOUT PAULA

Paula Moio comes originally from Angola and has been living in England for a very long time. After many years with the BBC, she currently works at a family office. Paula is also a great ambassador for the assistant community, is a brilliant networker and an incredibly humble and inspiring personality.

ABOUT EXECUTIVE OFFICE INSIGHTS with DIANA BRANDL

Executive Office Insights is a podcast for executive support professionals hosted by Diana Brandl – an accomplished trainer, consultant, coach, and former C-suite senior executive assistant with nearly two decades of experience at renowned international companies, this podcast dives deep into the evolving world of executive excellence.

Diana explores the critical themes shaping the modern workplace, including leadership dynamics, digital transformation, AI, and the future of work. Featuring insightful conversations with a diverse range of German and English-speaking experts, each episode equips listeners with actionable insights and strategies to thrive in the ever-changing executive office landscape.

–––

THE LEADER ASSISTANT ACADEMY

Enroll in the on-demand, AI-powered professional development resource for Leader Assistants who want to level up. Learn more -> The Leader Assistant Academy.

THE LEADER ASSISTANT BOOK

Download the first 3 chapters of The Leader Assistant: Four Pillars of Game-Changing Assistant for FREE here or buy it on Amazon and listen to the audiobook on Audible. Also, check out the companion study guide, The Leader Assistant Workbook, to dig deeper.

JOIN THE FREE COMMUNITY

Join the Leader Assistant Global Community for bonus content, job opportunities, and to network with other assistants who are committed to becoming leaders!

THE LEADER ASSISTANT PREMIUM MEMBERSHIP

To learn more about how you can join growth-minded Leader Assistants, check out our Leader Assistant Premium Membership for ongoing training, coaching, and community.

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EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

00:00:00
Hey friends, thanks for tuning in to the Leader Assistant Podcast. I’m excited to share another spotlight episode of my friend Diana Brandl’s show, Executive Office Insights. Be sure to check out the show notes for more information about her show and today’s featured guest. But in the meantime, enjoy this conversation and keep leading well.

00:00:28
The Leader Assistant podcast exists to encourage and challenge assistants to become confident, game-changing leader assistants.

00:00:43
Thanks again for tuning in. Check out the show notes for this episode at leaderassistant.com/379.

00:00:50
Hello everybody and I’m very excited to share my next English episode with you. It is an interview I did back in December 2019 when I was over in the UK. I was speaking at a conference in London and London is not only one of my favorite cities in the world, it is also a wonderful place where I meet friends and members of my community. So I always try to make extra room in my agenda when I’m over. And one of those people who’s always on this list of meeting is Paula Moio. Paula is currently working as an executive assistant for the CEO and managing director of Time Family Office in London. She has a long history working for the BBC and she calls herself a self-made, future-focused professional who truly embraces passion, advocating for a change of perceptions and the recognition of the PAEA role.

00:01:49
She’s a gifted mentor, she’s an award-winning assistant and she has a lot of stories she’s going to share with us in the interview. And what I enjoyed so much is the fact that I did not only get to interview Paula, she also invited her executive Louis to the conversation. So I’m very happy to share this very special episode with you as I was sitting there with two incredible leaders of their profession, seeing how much they value each other.

00:02:19
And I’m hoping you enjoy the interview as much as I did when I was sitting with them in the room.

00:02:26
Please enjoy and make sure you leave us a comment and a review. So tune in everyone.

00:02:38
So here we are, Paula and I. Good morning. Good morning, Diana. We are in the heart of London. I’m actually sitting in Paula’s office.

00:02:47
I’ve heard a lot about it, and now I’m here with her. It’s wonderful to see her in action, and I’m very happy that she really has time for me today to meet in this pre-Christmas time in London. A present. Thank you. So who’s Paula Moio? Wow.

00:03:08
So I am an EA executive assistant with a passion to serve and share I have 34 years of experience in the admin profession so sharing the wisdom good or bad of this length of experience it seems worth it I am also a mother of of two beautiful young women. Oh, yes, I can absolutely confirm this. I met both of them. Who are themselves trailblazing in their own lines.

00:03:42
And as an individual, I would like to believe that I thrive on principles of integrity and excellence, but not perfection, because that’s what makes me a human being. And I’m okay with that.

00:03:58
Very good.

00:03:59
So you are Angolan by birth and heart. Tell me about the love of your mother country.

00:04:08
Angola is, as we say it, as we Angolans say it, Angola is in my heart.

00:04:15
And I believe that every immigrant has its own country in their hearts. But

00:04:27
I never left Angola because I wanted. I left Angola because I had to. I had two babies then. They were nine months old. They were twins, my girls. And I needed a safer place. and more stable country to raise them.

00:04:46
But it was very hard for me to leave my country. I left, you need to know, I left my country with seven cars behind me taking me to the airport.

00:04:58
Friends and family. And it was very hard to leave them.

00:05:03
When I moved into England, I wrote about this. Saturdays were very difficult because it was when we had the family and friends, we spent time together.

00:05:19
i would not acknowledge a saturday and when i did i would cry and weep because um i missed all of it um so angola is something that is there in my heart and three years ago i had the opportunity to go back and give back and paying it forward and i tell you diana I did not blink. I was at my busiest time professionally. I did not blink. And I took it as an opportunity to exactly make the connection. And I’m still doing it now.

00:05:56
And that’s amazing. And a lot of people have been following your journey, especially with the Ungolden project. So tell us more about this project that you have been supporting since 2016. How did this all start?

00:06:08
It’s amazing.

00:06:11
My friends know that I’m an assistant. Every time they come, they see me doing something. And one of them came and I was preparing a speech to the launch of an association.

00:06:23
By then I was doing a short course in management for assistants.

00:06:29
And they asked me to come and do a speech for the relaunch of the association. So I very happily did.

00:06:38
So when my friend came, I asked him to read the speech and he was in awe. And so all of them go back and say, she’s an amazing assistant. She’s this and that and that. So there was one person who…

00:06:58
runs the the an Academy professional development and she heard about me and she said look I’m I was asked to design a course for assistance I know nothing about it I heard you you you do very well in your job can you help me I would love to run a two-day a seminar and

00:07:27
And could could you help us and I said look I’ve just started a new job. Yes after 15 years I mean, this is a completely the timing is couldn’t be you know, oh it all came together. Absolutely I said I need three months to think about the idea to conceive it in my head and if it goes well in my head I’m sure I will be able to To to to perform it, right? this was March 2016 and

00:07:56
And in June, I sat down, I wrote the program, sent it to her, and I said, are you happy with this? What do you think? And not only the program, I did the proposal as well and why we were doing it. But I think it’s all to do with the community service that we all do. You do. I do. Lucy does. I mean, everyone does. In our own corners. And of course, we absorb a lot from each other. It’s true. Yes. We learn a lot from each other. And, of course, I was able to put something together because I’ve seen, I’ve observed, and I was kind of regurgitating what we learn at our conferences. Yes. And that’s how it all started, never to look back again.

00:08:39
Wow. It’s an amazing story. And I remember we were talking about, you mentioned Lucy and I think it was an interview you did with Lucy where you said actually that the role of the assistant is in your skin and in your pores. So how did you become an assistant and how did you become so committed for this profession that you go so many extra miles?

00:09:02
I think it’s what Louis said, it’s second nature and it’s the love to serve and to provide solutions and doing it with excellence as well.

00:09:19
In my first job though, and this was in Angola, I had an executive and a line manager. She was a woman and she was a very hard woman.

00:09:32
fine professional and the very bone of who I am as a professional I owe it to her Wow I would have to say her name her name is Maria de Rosario so this is for you Maria and she would demand the best of me we started the both of us I was her assistant she would never stop working Wow and I Not that this is a healthy thing, but she would deliver, deliver, deliver. There was nothing about it but to deliver and to make sure that you do so with excellence. That comes from there. And I was 20.

00:10:18
Wow. So this was a very inspiring moment for you working with such a great leader then.

00:10:23
Totally.

00:10:24
Wow.

00:10:24
It made me who I am. I mean, she was the worst bosses in terms of demanding because I would type contracts from nine o’clock in the morning to midnight. Wow. Wow.

00:10:36
and do not even get overtime. But I learned, I think the professional, the very fabric of the professional I am today, I owe it to Rosario.

00:10:48
And I know that you have been working with other women in your career, so let’s jump to the history you have with the BBC. Please share your special memories of this chapter of your professional life, Paola. At the BBC I had two women.

00:11:04
The latter was the one who inspired me the most. She was a leader in her own right, a fine journalist and a human being above all, you know.

00:11:19
And I think she led us during very scary moments for the journalists, which was when one of our colleagues was abducted by the Palestinian Army of Islam, Alan Johnston. And he was kept captive for 114 days. Wow.

00:11:41
And she led us and also, of course, the BBC into a hundred, I think for a month, we would stay at lunchtime out protesting for him to be freed.

00:11:55
It was scary, but he actually brought us together as colleagues and employees and as a journalist, the human rights and all of that.

00:12:08
And it actually gave you a sense of belonging as well. So that was one of my most defining moments at the BBC. There was also under her leadership in 2008, we received eight, not just one, eight awards, Sony Awards. Wow.

00:12:34
Eight. Eight, which is, I think it’s the Oscars of the journalism. And so we got three gold, we got three silver and two bronze.

00:12:46
So that was a huge party going on at the BBC. Totally, totally. And that shows the finesse of her leadership, I think.

00:12:54
And I know you’re still in touch with her, right?

00:12:57
Yes, actually, we were just arranging a date for Christmas dinner and we’re going next week. Very nice. Please give her my regards.

00:13:07
I will. It’s wonderful that you mentioned her.

00:13:09
Yes, absolutely.

00:13:10
I could not…

00:13:12
Do it. So when we hear so much about all the wonderful projects in your life, how do you manage all of that? You are a committed mother.

00:13:21
You are a great networker. You are a supporter on social media.

00:13:25
So where is your work-life balance at the moment?

00:13:28
I don’t have, but I thrive on it.

00:13:31
This is a 2020 goal for Paula?

00:13:35
Well, I’m trying to as much as. So what I do, the compromise I did with myself is, yes, we work hard, but then we pause, we pause. not as much you know but i’m trying to find a balance there so when i pause i make sure i create memories with my family very good i go down completely i switch off and if i switch in it’s just for fun Very good. And that is the balance.

00:14:06
You need to teach me that. You know that I’m constantly online, so my work-life balance is also not the best.

00:14:13
But I know you have big plans, of course, for 2020.

00:14:17
And maybe you want to tell us a bit about the book you are currently writing. Is this something you can share with us already to get the audience a bit curious? Oh, it’s a wonderful project.

00:14:28
You know, I’m a firm believer that when you speak to the universe, the universe gives it back to you somehow.

00:14:36
So in my last three months in 2018, I was thinking I want to go back to writing, but writing more. I love writing. It’s just finding the headspace to do it. You know, you need to have that kind of space.

00:14:52
And January I get a phone call from Marcella Brito saying that she’s working in a project with three other women and it’s a project of five. It’s to write about the interculturality in our profession, how intercultural are we. how adaptable are we in a different environment and putting ourselves in other people’s shoes.

00:15:24
And this was, let me make a note here, this was a year that I took off the Angolan seminar to rest and to create space and to write and to kind of make a strategy about the Angolan project and whatnot. No, I get pulled right back in. And this is the book. The book will launch hopefully in the first semester of 2020. Okay.

00:15:55
Is there a title already?

00:15:57
We’re trying to find a good title.

00:16:01
We’ve got two options. I think it’s heading towards one. I’m not going to tell you now. But it’s about being intercultural. Very good. A multicultural mindset and making it abroad. So it’s the story of five women.

00:16:18
Let’s give them a shout out. You mentioned Marcella already.

00:16:21
Marcella Brito, Simone…

00:16:24
It’s Claudia and it’s Natalie and myself.

00:16:28
Fantastic. So five of us. Hi to everyone out there.

00:16:30
I know.

00:16:31
I’m sure you’re going to hear the podcast. So big applause already to you, amazing woman out there.

00:16:37
Absolutely. And they are.

00:16:39
So Simone is in Chile. Claudia is in Japan.

00:16:43
Natalie is in Madrid. I am in the UK. And Marcela is in Brazil. The particularity with Marcelle is that she’s not an immigrant.

00:16:55
We all are, and we’re all talking about our experiences of being in another country, the adjustment, adapting to a different culture.

00:17:06
And it’s more not on the technical side of the profession, but on the human side. The challenges, the adversities, and how we all made sense in the end, because we’re all five successful women.

00:17:22
You are, and you can be proud of that. Thank you. And being proud means also to me sending you once again congratulations on…

00:17:30
on winning the we are the city rising star award this year wow so what is that all about oh my god how important is this award for you and your work well it is important um we are the city um um it’s a it’s an award given to women that trailblazing in their own field yes it’s this year we had 17 industries being being awarded different uh categories And my category was the EA and PA alongside with four other women.

00:18:07
You get 10 shortlisted and then reduced to five winners.

00:18:12
I have to say I was nominated twice. three times the third time lucky you got it and you deserve it my friend this award is I mean it’s the icing on the cake because it’s at the national level yes about six sixteen hundred people and it’s for me it’s it’s not only just a recognition of what you do and what you give to people but it’s also propels you

00:18:44
uh and you reach and it also gives it to you the responsibility to do more actually it’s not just getting an award it’s to get in your word and do something and one of the things that i actually pledged because when they asked for further information on awards They asked me, if you win, what do you want to do?

00:19:07
What is it? What does that mean for you? And I said, I would actually pledge to work on diversity and inclusion. Oh, that’s a fantastic topic. In our profession. That is a wonderful topic. Because I don’t think that our profession is representative of the very fabric that Britain represents, which is multicultural. And for some reason, we are all there. But for some reason, we’re not showing up. Why does that happen? Why don’t we have that multicultural representation in our profession that Britain is?

00:19:41
Yes.

00:19:41
That is my pledge.

00:19:42
Fully agree. Wonderful. So what did Louis say when you presented him the award? What was the first thing he said?

00:19:48
I texted him.

00:19:51
He was on holidays, and I texted him saying, I got it. He was proud. He was so proud, yes.

00:19:58
And we are all proud of you because you’re a fantastic ambassador. You’re always there for people. Thank you. I value our friendship a lot. Me too. And I thank you so much for this time, welcoming me here in the privacy of your office. And I remember when I came…

00:20:14
I’m getting emotional now a bit.

00:20:17
So when I approached you with this idea and you said, yes, of course, we do that. And guess what, Diana? It’s not only me. I’m going to ask my manager if he wants to join us for this podcast. And this made it even more attractive, of course, for the audience out there because it shows a true partnership. And I’ve seen that, how you were sitting together, how you were interacting together. Yes.

00:20:40
And this is really wonderful to see because it shows that there’s so much out there for us assistants when we have the right leaders next to each other. They help us grow and they help us to deep dive into new fields. And it’s a privilege doing this today with you. And I thank you so much once again for having me. Thank you so much, Diana.

00:21:01
It’s been a pleasure.

00:21:03
Thank you. Bye-bye. Bye.

00:21:07
Hello again and good morning. I’m still in London and actually now I’m sitting together with Paula and her manager, which is Louis. Good morning to you.

00:21:17
very honored to be here today to actually have the chance to talk to you both because of course for our audience it will be a wonderful experience to listen to a manager and an assistant at the same time how they have a view over our wonderful profession to get a insight into our industry and talking again to another assistant who is not based in germany

00:21:39
So welcome once again. I would love to raise my first question to both of you.

00:21:45
After working for nearly five years together now, can you say that there’s a certain routine in your working relationship? Maybe Paula, you want to start?

00:21:54
It’s four years actually.

00:21:55
It’s going to be four years in January.

00:21:57
And there’s no routine about my work relationship with Louis, who is my chairman. And it’s a wonderful thing. Right now, we’re settling. We’re kind of settling into ways of working together.

00:22:19
It’s almost the synergy bit that we are, knowing we know now her. how the other one works and and the expectations we’re managing the expectations now and it’s I think it’s working well for me was a shock for me to start working with a millennia my boss runs in adrenaline and I thought I was very busy in my previous job and I did not have a clue

00:22:55
what busy was oh yeah I’ve been working with millennials too and it was an interesting experience for me as well when I was I came actually from a very traditional business and then I jumped in the world of working for a startup company in Berlin and the first weeks were I thought I have to leave this job and But it was so refreshing on the other side. So I totally understand what you mean. And I’ve never been busier in my life than in this role. So I can totally rely.

00:23:22
Yes, absolutely. And the hardest thing for me was Louis comes from a different culture. We…

00:23:32
In principle, we should have the same culture being Portuguese rooted, but we don’t. I live in London for 24 years, and Luis just arrived to this country. So we have different cultures, different approaches to work. And that was the adjustment. And also fitting in or filling in the shoes of his assistant. He has an assistant in Brazil. He has different assistants.

00:24:00
Four, wow. Luis is signing. And so it’s filling in. He’s expecting to a certain standard. I have a different standard. How do I fit in? How do I navigate those intricacies, you see? But I think it’s working well.

00:24:16
I think we both, with the wisdom and the willing to make it happen because after all, we provide a service to a family. This is a family office and therefore there’s this will to serve and to present solutions and to present excellence and therefore this is our ultimate goal, both of us.

00:24:43
Do you want to add something, Louis? What do you value the most about Paula’s work?

00:24:47
I think what Paula said, she’s totally right, it’s always a challenge when you have different cultures and habits and all those kinds of things.

00:24:57
But one of the most important qualities in Paula is to be flexible and also she’s really resilient and she knows first to listen then try to see how her skills, her talents can be improved in order to fulfill all her responsibilities. So it’s not always, let’s say,

00:25:23
black or white, or that’s it, no. It’s fluid, every day is a different day. We don’t have, thank God, routine. To be honest, I avoid routines. I don’t like it, to be honest.

00:25:34
The thing is, how can we adapt ourselves, even myself, to her way to do things, and her way to understand how our things should be done. So it’s, to be honest, on a daily basis, every day we try to improve as much as possible. When one of the most important thing

00:25:52
Bear in mind is to be transparent, have an open dialogue, in order to say something or to listen to something, and always trying to respect all differences or anything. So one of the key things for a good relation with the EA, PA, call it whatever you want, with the director, the manager, whatever you call it, is dialogue. Open and transparent relation. Otherwise it will never work. From both sides. Because sometimes my side could be acting somehow with adrenaline and speeding and blah, blah, blah. And without understanding or putting the shoes off the other side.

00:26:34
After some period, the relation is terrible and you don’t know why. And at the same time, the other side must be clear enough to say, sorry, it’s not working.

00:26:45
I can’t understand. I need more information. And so and so. So the dialogue, the clear understanding is one of the key things. By the way, in all relations. It could be friends, it could be husband, it could be parents, it could be anything.

00:26:59
Talking about dialogue, how often do you have a touch base?

00:27:01
Quite often, believe me. No, no, really.

00:27:03
And you travel a lot, so do you actually take a phone call or do you prefer any other communication channel with Paula?

00:27:12
It could be WhatsApp, it could be fire, it could be video, it could be shouting, it could be fire sometimes, it could be anything.

00:27:20
Very good.

00:27:22
Well, we often talk in our profession about assistants being leaders. And some assistants still have a hard time taking ownership regarding, am I a leader? My manager is a leader. How can I be a leader as an assistant? But what would you say?

00:27:38
Can assistants be leaders, Louis?

00:27:40
They must be leaders. Otherwise, it doesn’t work. One of the key things on my side is to delegate properly things.

00:27:46
To delegate, you must have a good to rely on.

00:27:52
You must give all the tools to this person to be able to perform whatever she must do. For example, Paula has the full powers to manage my account.

00:28:02
Of course, it’s the personal account, it’s not the investment account. But then, in a good way, she has all the liberty to manage, to withdraw, to pay, whatever. Yes.

00:28:17
Which is, come on, a big thing.

00:28:18
Yes, it is.

00:28:20
So this is thanks to her, not to me, to be honest.

00:28:23
Yes. Thanks to her. Sorry. I was absolutely gut smacked when the bank manager writes an email, so this will give Paola all the powers. And he said, absolutely. I’m thinking, oh my goodness. It took me a week. I had to settle for a week and then sent him a one line and said, thank you for the trust because it’s all about trust, isn’t it? It is.

00:28:44
There’s a point. Yes. But if you wanted to give…

00:28:47
the position as a leader, you’re saying to anyone, you must give the proper tools. So I’ll give you a small example, which are the responsibilities of someone like Paula. So if I want her to perform, to pay this, this, this, this, this, how she will do it. She can’t come to me each time, it doesn’t work.

00:29:06
Absolutely, yes.

00:29:07
Because I’m doing myself and I have my duties and so on. So one of the principles, the key things to do, you can rely, you can trust, give the proper tools, let the people work. So you give the proper instructions, that’s why you must have a good relation and open dialogue to see, is it clear what I ask? Is it not?

00:29:30
Tell me, because maybe I wasn’t clear, maybe I was just speedy or whatever.

00:29:36
So they must be leaders, otherwise it doesn’t work. It doesn’t work.

00:29:40
Absolutely. So I heard that trust is very important for both of you in this role. How would you describe, Paula, the leadership style of Louis?

00:29:50
It’s open.

00:29:52
And one of the things that really touched me the most is, as you know, I work on different projects outside work.

00:30:00
And Louis came to me and said, do you know why do I support in everything that you do after work on your projects? Yes. Because I take time off work to do that. And it’s quite stressful because it’s two jobs or three sometimes at the same time.

00:30:17
And he said, because I like to work with the person that is motivated and I can see that that does that to you. And, you know, you thrive. That’s fantastic. So long as it doesn’t, you know, overlap. Absolutely. The work that you do here, I will always support you. So that, for me, is leadership at its best. It’s him expecting the best of me here, which he does. I believe me. He knows everything.

00:30:47
Even if I forget, he will not. I never had a boss like that.

00:30:52
And he knows. And sometimes he’s saying, oh, I don’t know. And I know that he actually knows. He’s just trying to make me feel good about certain things.

00:31:01
And he’s absolutely clear about his instructions. He’s absolutely clear about what he wants.

00:31:09
the excellence of service that we provide here, not just for him, but for the family that we serve. And he’s absolutely clear, Diana, about what he doesn’t want. And I think the leadership that Louis does to me gives me the space to grow into my own leadership, into leading my role. And I think that that is beautiful. It is.

00:31:36
One of the things that I learned from my…

00:31:41
because I’m only 39 years old, but I started when I was 18, 19 years old to work, was to be surrounded by good people, people you can rely, people where you can share good or bad things. That’s life.

00:31:56
And also that you must give the tools and to explore, in a good sense, the talents of each one. We all have a talent. It could be anything. And how to explore it, how to bring this out.

00:32:10
Because everyone, maybe, it’s so common you see people in their 50s, 60s, discovering to do whatever they always were wishing to do, but they didn’t have time. Which is sad. In my case, I like to give the people as much as possible the tools that they can explore themselves as soon as possible, in a good sense, of course.

00:32:29
And to be honest, I’ve already lost a few good people because then they discover they want to do something else, which is fine. Thank God. Because people, if they intend to work at my side, it’s not for me at my side, which is quite an important detail, is…

00:32:49
please be happy be happy not gonna be happy on the stupid way in the sense that makes sense for you that this you see that yes you meet you you get it home okay I did a hard job it was a painful day but I’m happy because I like what I do yes I’m happy to wake up in the morning morning Monday morning it is raining it is cold but thank God I’m going to work and then so and so so

00:33:14
Having said that, you must motivate people, you must give them the tools, and to bring out whatever they have inside. And if somehow people decide to do something else, which is fine, because they are following what? Their purpose in life. So I wanted to give people whatever they must have, in the good sense of the word, in order to get their purpose in life that’s why i can perform my duties whatever because i i hope at least i try as much as possible to be surrounded by people that are following the purpose absolutely i’m sure that this motivates you as well so what inspires you uh in addition

00:33:52
That’s a very good question. It inspires me what I like to do. I like to serve. I have my clients, so I’m really satisfied when I can serve them above their expectations. If you ask me something, I would always do an extra thing. Why that? Because this little extra thing that makes the difference. Because when you do whatever you were told for, let’s call it like this, it’s quite obvious.

00:34:21
So, you know, they’re paying me for that specific thing.

00:34:26
There’s no magic on it. There’s nothing on that. So go always a little bit beyond.

00:34:33
If you ask me to come at 9 o’clock, I’ll be here at 8.45. Yeah.

00:34:37
It’s a small thing. If you ask me, just a glass of water, I’ll bring you a glass of water plus a little chocolate. Always a little surprise in a positive way or something else. So in this, then you start to do small things and you add a little bit more, then you get more connection, relation, and everything should be much more positive on the mid and long term. All relations are to the mid-long term, not short term. Short term doesn’t make any sense. Nothing, to be honest. So when you look

00:35:07
In the long term, then you can create solid connections with human people and communities, companies, whatever you have around you.

00:35:19
And it’s true because that’s part of your brand and having a brand is important nowadays, especially when we talk about digitization and all the things that are happening with industry 4.0 out there.

00:35:30
Speaking about inspiration, Paula is a well-respected industry ambassador and highly appreciated throughout the international network of office professionals.

00:35:39
Are you aware, Louis, of all the wonderful projects she’s doing outside of this role, such as her engagement for Angola?

00:35:48
I’m more than aware because each time she has something, she has my full support. Could be to have more time to perform it, could be eventually something that I can sponsor, could be just sometimes have a chat about it. So I’m more than happy to support, to give a chat, to give an input or anything else.

00:36:06
So quite often she asked me, I have some time for this, for this. I always say, please go for it. No worries.

00:36:14
And sometimes ideas. I remember when we went to the World Administrator Summit, I got a round of applause because I told them what Louis thought about the admin of the future, the assistant of the future.

00:36:27
This was a very special moment. I recorded the video, remember? I hope you saw it, Louis.

00:36:32
I did, but I think one of the most important things is is the human part. Because you can have all the digital, technical, iPhones, I, I, I, this, I, that. The point is, human being will always be human being with emotions. You can have emotion. Okay, you can develop AI. Okay, forget. You can have feelings. You can have intuition.

00:36:56
Intuition you can’t explain. All you have, you don’t have. There’s a point. I don’t even know how to explain it, to be honest. The point is, you must have people that just look in the eyes and say, okay, I got it. I’ll do it.

00:37:08
So, that’s it.

00:37:10
And that’s a very interesting fact because actually I meet a lot of managers out there who say, well, let’s see, maybe in a few years my job or the job of my assistant can be taken over by Alexa. or by Ziri, or by all the other digital assistants out there. So what is your view on this one? You said emotions are important, I’m sure emotional intelligence… I hate Alexa.

00:37:30
Someone gave me, I gave to someone else. See? Why that? I don’t want to have a digital voice in my house, in my office, in my whatever.

00:37:38
You gave it to me actually.

00:37:39
I gave it to you?

00:37:41
Oh really? So you have an assistant, Paula. Oh well, that’s interesting.

00:37:45
I forgot, I completely forgot that.

00:37:48
the point is i do that the thing was i don’t want to have a digital thing to say thing at home or office whatever uh controlling my life yes but one of the key things in my life is privacy yes i know i say that we are no profile yes so i avoid all kind of expositions or whatever i don’t

00:38:11
This is part of my family culture, let’s call it this. Yes. And having said that, this is to where all the data is going to, who is managing this, and I don’t like it. So we already had too much iPhones and whatever controlling all this and that, which is already too much for me, to be honest. But having said that, I think the position has fallen all the years that I have in team leaders and so on.

00:38:38
human being, connections, relations, intuition, see a little bit beyond, things that you can develop all the AI, whatever you call it, but you don’t have the little thing on the human side.

00:38:54
Exactly. Sensitivity, a wonderful word, and emotional intelligence, creativity. I’m sure Paula needs to be super creative every single day to perform this role.

00:39:03
One of the most important things also I look for is emotional intelligence.

00:39:07
Yes, yes.

00:39:08
I have seen a lot of good people with MPAs, with masters, blah, blah, whatever you call it, name it, but with zero emotional intelligence. Then it doesn’t work at all.

00:39:19
See? Yeah.

00:39:21
So let’s look into the new year. 2020 is around the corner. So what are your working goals?

00:39:29
You should have seen the sign of Louis, he was handing over to Paula, which is very generous.

00:39:35
I am the chief, so I say this is going to happen. It’s going to be a very busy year for me on the project side.

00:39:43
Some of it Louis already knows, some of it it’s coming, came this week and I’m trying to manage and to have a meeting with him to tell him what’s going to happen. okay no one knows some things i cannot talk about yet okay but um in terms of work i think it’s it’s that moment that i um told you in the beginning it’s the same synergy it’s us fitting in together and then from now it’s going to be magic that’s the only thing i can tell you well magic sounds always good in my case all the goals are are to be more efficient

00:40:20
always to find the balance between the personal life and the professional life. Because there’s always something that I say to my friends is we have three, a man and a woman have always three times for the family, the couple, and yourself. So how to balance all the three things.

00:40:41
Good luck is a chance for all of us.

00:40:42
Yes.

00:40:43
So always trying to find a proper balance about this.

00:40:46
Yes.

00:40:46
Also trying to find a proper balance between how can I learn more things. So I’d love to go to more conferences, short courses, whatever. I think this is quite important. You must always study even more. So to read more, to listen more, get more information. And I have my filters and I make my own analysis. Yes. So one of the key things I think in life is

00:41:10
To be a good listener.

00:41:12
Yes, I love that. And also be a continuous learner.

00:41:15
That’s why we have two ears and one mouth, as we say in Brazil. To listen more, to talk less. You see that as I talk a little bit. But the thing is, try to listen more to absorb information, to process it. So to answer your question, try to find always a proper balance between everything that I do, that I must perform,

00:41:36
get more information, listen, study as much as possible, and be always efficient in all my duties.

00:41:45
Very good. And I also love the way people work with mentors. I mean, Paul is a mentor for a lot of assistants out there, especially in Angola. Have you ever worked with a mentor, Louis?

00:41:54
I have a mentor. Fantastic. I have quite a few, to be honest.

00:41:56
Very good.

00:41:57
So…

00:42:00
It’s been 15 years and I have a special coach in Brazil that I use sometimes depending on the cycle of the business or whatever. So I access him as much as possible. I have other people also that I can rely on and chat with. I can call mentors, I can call board members.

00:42:20
Right.

00:42:20
It depends on the name you put in it. There are several people that I can rely and to ask proper questions and to take notes and also take as an example. We must have people that we admire to take as a good example and chat and be close.

00:42:37
Right.

00:42:37
Not only virtual people. There are people who like to buy books about Bill Gates, whatever. This is great. Please do it. But you must be connected to those people. You must talk to them. You must be… Otherwise, it’s just books. So the people that I can have a connection are people that I really know, have intimacy, and I can say any kind of things.

00:43:02
And to receive the feedback, good or bad.

00:43:05
Yes.

00:43:05
Which is good.

00:43:06
I love that.

00:43:07
So to be honest, I like the negative part in a good sense, of course.

00:43:10
The constructive one.

00:43:10
The constructive way. You know, please challenge me.

00:43:13
Exactly.

00:43:13
Tell me you’re wrong. Yes. Why I’m wrong? Because this and this and this. Okay, thank you for that. Yes. So this is important. It’s a way to…

00:43:20
Absolutely. I had this just yesterday when I was on stage here in London, when I was speaking, and there was a fellow German in the audience who came to me and he said, I really enjoyed your talk, but can I give you a recommendation? Can I give you some advice? And I love that exactly. I don’t like when people are clapping on your shoulders and say, well, I love that. I love that. I need those who are brave enough to come up and say, hey.

00:43:44
On the companies that I manage, the board members,

00:43:48
The one of the things that I avoid the most, and I avoid the most of all of that, I avoid completely is the yes man. This is terrible. This destroys all values for anything. Could be destroy the company, destroy yourself, destroy your soul. So the thing is, how to have people that are positive people by the way, proactive,

00:44:10
with a lot of substance, and they say, I like, I don’t like, because of this.

00:44:14
Exactly.

00:44:15
And Lou, if you don’t like, that’s your problem. That’s my position. So this is important.

00:44:19
And this is why a sounding board is so important to have you around, because that’s how we grow.

00:44:25
And he actually listens, because sometimes I give him advice here and there, in a bunch of situations, and he actually goes and comes back and says, actually, we’re right, Paola.

00:44:35
Of course.

00:44:36
And that, for me, it’s so important.

00:44:40
Working side to side.

00:44:42
Yeah, it’s always good to have a reflection. And this is why an assistant and a manager need to be good sparring partners to actually having this level of trust to be able to give that feedback in both ways.

00:44:53
So let’s look back into the time when you actually looked for your new assistant. So five years almost now.

00:45:04
What was the picture in your head when you searched for an executive assistant?

00:45:08
Someone that was mature, experienced, discreet, bilingual.

00:45:19
What else? Flexible.

00:45:22
Pretty much like this. Someone that, of course, had already worked with big companies or had performed with people with my profile. So it’s pretty much like this.

00:45:34
And I know that you went through a recruitment agency, and there was, I think, five interviews before you hired Paula.

00:45:43
Yeah, maybe. There was something like this.

00:45:44
And so what was the first instinct you had when you met her? Did you feel already that she is the one?

00:45:50
He met me on my last one.

00:45:54
The one before last, because the last one was just a negotiation. But Louis only participated on the last one, the penultimate interview.

00:46:06
Yeah, my MD did all the first meetings and so on, and I stepped in on the last one.

00:46:15
in order to be sure that this was reasonable or not. They were pulling someone else, I forgot the name.

00:46:21
I think Portuguese also, no? I think so. No? And when I met Paula, I had a really good impression. It was someone discreet, really polite, and listening properly, and say, okay, no, I’m in. I think you said something in the sense that just give me time in order to understand, to absorb, everything as much as possible. It was something really peaceful, quiet, respectful.

00:46:50
Was there any application coming in from a male assistant?

00:46:55
What do you mean?

00:46:56
A male assistant.

00:46:57
For me?

00:46:58
Yes.

00:46:59
I have male or female, it doesn’t matter. In Brazil, I have two years that are male.

00:47:05
Good.

00:47:06
So, male or female, for me, that’s fine.

00:47:07
Very good. Very good.

00:47:09
Of course, at the beginning of Pola, I had to take care of my, maybe… You can’t talk with women as you talk with men.

00:47:18
Oh, yes.

00:47:19
I agree.

00:47:21
But after some time, at the end of the day, you can be more spontaneous. Let’s say like this. Yes.

00:47:28
On the good way, please.

00:47:30
So we talked a bit about industry 4.0, the automation, the disruption coming to, sadly, a lot to our industry. KPMG just had to let 300 assistants go, which was horrible, horrible news we received in this industry. And we are rooting for our colleagues out there to find a good job. So a lot of these things are happening as a constant change in this profession.

00:47:54
And there are many, many challenges out there who influence the future of work. And we’ve been talking about skills before. So what do you see and expect in the job description of a future assistant?

00:48:05
I think one of the important things is always provide solutions. I see a lot of people that are not EA anymore, PA, whatever you call it,

00:48:17
because they were just taking notes to book a restaurant, or to pay a bill, or things that doesn’t bring any value, let’s call it this. Because to book simple things, you have all the apps, Alexis, you know what I mean? And then you’re not adding value. Exactly. You just have people working there, say, good morning, hi, Mr. Blah Blah, and where do you want to eat your steak? It doesn’t make any sense. So you need people that you can give important tasks that add value to the company and to yourself. There’s a point. But this also depends on my side to provide or to ask these kind of things.

00:49:04
So, Paula, I don’t know if I’m right, but

00:49:08
I don’t ask you much silly things, to be honest.

00:49:13
Am I right? It’s the responsibility that you have in managing a massive family and business. And of course, you feel that not only you have that responsibility, but you have the trust of your manager in handing it to you. So you don’t just do the small bits. You do the big responsibilities. You have staff that you look after. You have… Just before coming in, I was organizing things with the driver and errands to be done at the residence. I come here, I talk to the bank, all sorts of things that I do and he doesn’t need to worry about because he has a bigger job to do.

00:50:04
Allow me to, it’s not a bigger job. It’s not big or small. We all have a job.

00:50:09
And I need in order to perform my job to focus on it. But if I need to focus on my things, I need to delegate. So it’s not big or small. I need to share my duties in order to be more efficient in what I must deliver. Right.

00:50:26
He’s being modest. But thank you, Louis.

00:50:29
No, no, but really, this is important.

00:50:32
We all have duties. Something big for me is smaller for you, which is big for me is smaller for you. That’s fine. We always have our view on that. The thing is, and to get back to your question, is the EAs, PAs, whatever, must perform something that adds value.

00:50:48
Yes.

00:50:49
Not things that are, to be honest…

00:50:51
Exactly. Day-to-day, they come on.

00:50:54
We all can pick up the phone. Come on. We all can send a WhatsApp or whatever.

00:50:58
Especially the millennial generation who’s tech-savvy. They know how to do that. They know how to handle the apps indeed.

00:51:04
I see all the traditional companies.

00:51:08
They used to have two or three EAs buy it. by direct. This is nonsense. It’s because people are more concerned to wear a tie than to do anything else. So take off your tie, put on your jeans and move in.

00:51:24
Don’t be so distant from reality, from the streets and from what people are really thinking and moving.

00:51:30
And get surrounded by people that add value.

00:51:34
I love this term. And I always, that’s what I say in my seminars as well. What is your value proposition? And what impact do you have in your role? And here we are again. This is why assistants, especially the future assistants, are leaders. Yes. Right? Absolutely.

00:51:49
So we’re coming to an end.

00:51:51
And of course, how can I not ask you to say something in Portuguese? Since I have the language specialist in front of me here. And we’re going to have an international audience that is listening to the podcast. And my brother is married to a beautiful woman from Sao Paulo. And of course, the young golden girls will for sure also tune in to the podcast. So I would be very, very honored if we have a few words in Portuguese.

00:52:20
Oh, what can I say? Muito obrigado.

00:52:23
Foi um prazer estar aqui e partilhar a nossa experiência. Eu acredito que crescendo, olhando para o futuro, o papel de uma assistente é de facto de liderança e cabe-nos a nós abraçar isso e caminhar para o futuro com confiança.

00:52:46
Do you understand Portuguese?

00:52:47
No, certainly not.

00:52:48
What did you say, Louis?

00:52:51
I’ll let you discover in the conference. Guys, thank you very much for your time. The position of assistants is very important and relevant for the professional director who is going to deliver what he promises to his clients. So, please, believe in the position of leadership of the assistants or of all the assistants. give them tools, study a lot, always remember to deliver above the expected, in a discreet, fast, efficient way, and always keep the dialogue open, frank and constructive. Thank you.

00:53:32
Thank you so much. Now I have to get back to my sister-in-law and have it translated. But it sounded very, very nice. And I thank you both for taking the time on this morning here in London, especially Louis. I know you have a busy schedule.

00:53:46
Sorry to interrupt, but everyone is busy. Yeah. All the time I see people say, oh, you’re busy. No, I’m busy. You’re busy. Everyone is busy.

00:53:53
Yes, we are.

00:53:54
So we all are busy. We all have a lot of stuff to do, even more in December, thanks to Santa Claus.

00:54:01
And the thing is, the thing is not to be busy, to be efficient.

00:54:06
Yes.

00:54:07
And you have the tools in order to delegate, in order to perform properly, in order to do a little bit more that the clients, the family, the friend expected, to be honest.

00:54:19
Yes. So let’s have an efficient 2020. Thank you so much to both of you. All the best. Thank you.

00:54:27
You’re listening to the Leader Assistant Podcast.

Join Diana Brandl for an inspiring spotlight episode of Executive Office Insights with Atrayah Janhe, former Personal Assistant to Archbishop Desmond Tutu. Atrayah shares her diverse career path – from her start as a secretary and policewoman in Rhodesia (now Zimbabwe) to managing the Arch’s office during his transition to retirement.

She offers crucial insights into the evolution of the assistant role, arguing that while technology advances skills, human connection and Emotional Intelligence (EQ) are vital qualities often missed in today’s fast-paced, remote work world. Discover the Arch’s cherished routines (including hot chocolate and twice-daily tea times), the power of servant leadership, and why embracing the courage to “jump” into new opportunities is the key to becoming a Leader Assistant.

CONNECT WITH ATRAYAH

• Atrayah on LinkedIn

ABOUT ATRAYAH

Atrayah Janhe works remotely across the UK, Europe, and South Africa, supporting leaders in distributed and fast-moving environments. With over 20 years of international experience, including five years as Personal Assistant to Archbishop Desmond Tutu, this practice is grounded in discretion, diplomacy, and mature judgement within high-trust settings.

Born in Rhodesia, departed Zimbabwe and settled in South Africa in 1981. From Secretarial Studies to Police Woman during the Rhodesian Bush War, Atrayah became the Personal Secretary to an executive in the travel sector, thereafter relocating to South Africa.

From admin & fitness instructor to PA & Campaign Manager to a Member of Parliament during the 1989 General Elections leading up to the release of Nelson Mandela from Robben Island, she has worked as a radio presenter; facilitated corporate workshops in Emotional Intelligence; lived in the UK as a PA Carer to high profile individuals before becoming Archbishop Desmond Tutu’s Personal Assistant in January 2015.

ABOUT EXECUTIVE OFFICE INSIGHTS with DIANA BRANDL

Executive Office Insights is a podcast for executive support professionals hosted by Diana Brandl – an accomplished trainer, consultant, coach, and former C-suite senior executive assistant with nearly two decades of experience at renowned international companies, this podcast dives deep into the evolving world of executive excellence.

Diana explores the critical themes shaping the modern workplace, including leadership dynamics, digital transformation, AI, and the future of work. Featuring insightful conversations with a diverse range of German and English-speaking experts, each episode equips listeners with actionable insights and strategies to thrive in the ever-changing executive office landscape.

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Enroll in the on-demand, AI-powered professional development resource for Leader Assistants who want to level up. Learn more -> The Leader Assistant Academy.

THE LEADER ASSISTANT BOOK

Download the first 3 chapters of The Leader Assistant: Four Pillars of Game-Changing Assistant for FREE here or buy it on Amazon and listen to the audiobook on Audible. Also, check out the companion study guide, The Leader Assistant Workbook, to dig deeper.

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Join the Leader Assistant Global Community for bonus content, job opportunities, and to network with other assistants who are committed to becoming leaders!

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EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

Hey friends, thanks for tuning in to the Leader Assistant Podcast. I’m excited to share another spotlight episode of my friend Diana Brandl’s show, Executive Office Insights. Be sure to check out the show notes for more information about her show and today’s featured guest. But in the meantime, enjoy this conversation and keep leading well. 

00:00:28
The Leader Assistant podcast exists to encourage and challenge assistants to become confident, game-changing leader assistants.

00:00:42
Take a look at the show notes for this episode at leaderassistant.com/378.

00:00:49
Hello, everybody. Guess where I am sitting at the moment. It’s beautiful Cape Town in South Africa. I’m actually in room 805 at a beautiful hotel out in Century City. And I’m not alone. Obviously, you can imagine I have a guest next to me, and I’m glad she accepted the invitation to join me in my tiny little hotel room here. I threw my husband out. He’s working downstairs and we had a great chat already and I can’t wait to introduce to you my guest here because she has a lot to tell, not only from the previous role she was in, but also what she’s doing right now. A great advocate also for the assistant profession and the VA profession. You’re going to hear more about her. And I hope I won’t make a mistake now. I have to look into my notes to pronounce a beautiful name. Welcome to the podcast, Atrayah Janhe. That is correct, yes. I’m so glad I didn’t mess it up already. Good morning and welcome to you. Glad you made it.

00:01:43
How are you today?

00:01:45
ah Diana it’s uh it’s Diane or Diana I don’t know but I should clarify that Diana uh yes it’s a I I work up with a balance to my step obviously and uh you know like when one is preparing for any type of an interview you know you prepare notes and you read through it like over and over and then you know it’s like then you get to the the interview and it’s like now what

00:02:06
So I’ve decided actually I’m going to put my notes to one side and just speak from my heart and just, you know, memory, really. So I’m delighted to be here. Thank you so very much for having invited me. Absolutely. A privilege.

00:02:21
I’ve been inspired by your story and I’ve been, you know,

00:02:26
through mutual friends and people from the industry, it’s wonderful to get to finally know you because social media offers a way of connection. But when you sit in front of someone and when you look them in the eyes and you have a chat together, that’s the moment where you connect. So there’s great opportunities out there for online networking, but the real magic happens when we sit face to face like we do now. So I’m sure that everyone was

00:02:51
Probably in parallel, starting to Google your name, because what did Diana just say? How do you pronounce that name? So maybe you need to help us a little bit.

00:03:00
Where does the name come from?

00:03:01
Okay, so my name, Atrayah, the first thing I will share is that Atrayah Jeanette, my name, the name Atrayah, A-T-R-A-Y-A-H.

00:03:11
It’s a sound tone. And it has a significant meaning. So much like indigenous tribes or indigenous people, they have ancestral names. And when you actually ask, let’s say, an African, an Uber driver, like I do all the time when I’m driving around Cape Town. I don’t own a car. I Uber everywhere.

00:03:29
I love Uber. Yeah.

00:03:30
And I always love my drivers. They’re just such personalities. And the one thing I’ll always ask them is like, what is your name? And they’ll say Raymond or Joe or, you know, like a very westernized name. I go, no, no, no. Tell me what your ancestral name is. And then they’ll name it off. And I go, oh, my goodness, how beautiful is that? Why don’t you actually introduce your name like that? And then they’ll give me all the reasons why. And I go, no, but it helps other people. Yes. develop neural networks in their brain because they’ve got to really figure out, like, how do I say that?

00:04:00
So Atreia actually originates, it’s from the Azerite tribes. The language is Anahazi, and it predates the Sumerian culture, which predates the Jesuit time, the Christ period. So it’s ancient. It’s ancient lineage.

00:04:15
The tribes themselves migrated out of Mesopotamia down into Coral, South America, and from there migrated up into Africa. And of course, there’s been disbursement as all migrations happen.

00:04:27
And here I am, I was born in Rhodesia, which people now know as Zimbabwe, like landlocked. And I often go, how did I end up there? You know, quite there, all places. So yeah, so my name, the meaning of my name is soul song. So when you say my name, it’s like singing to me on a deeply spiritual level.

00:04:46
It is. And I remember the first time I saw that name on LinkedIn, I was like, how do you pronounce it? So it’s indeed very beautiful. And you mentioned Zimbabwe already because I felt like, are you a native Cape Town lady here? I mean, you’ve been in the city for how long now?

00:05:01
Gosh, well, I’ve been in South Africa since 1981.

00:05:06
I was born in Rhodesia, and obviously we had the Rhodesian Bush War. I was a policewoman. I’d actually, my secretarial, well, the history of my secretarial start was from college. I did a secretarial diploma. That was in the 70s.

00:05:20
I did my first job out of college. I lasted one month. It was a dismal office space with very old men. And I just, I really didn’t enjoy any minutes of that time that I was there. And I was like, this is not for me. So, you know, the environment also impacts decision-making. And that was definitely a decision that I was never going to be a secretary again. Who wanted that, right? Spent my first salary, every cent, and then I signed up to join the police force. Yeah. Because I come from a military background.

00:05:47
Totally different industry.

00:05:48
Yeah, totally different industry. You know, I’d also been in the health and fitness game, you know, from the age of 16. So that’s also part of my background. But, you know, I was on duty looking after all the high-profile people, VIPs. The night the Rhodesian flag came down, Bob Marley electrocuted himself on the stage. And then the Zimbabwean flag went up. And I was like…

00:06:11
Okay, so I resigned out of the police force, and then I went into, I changed city, went to another city, and then I became the private secretary to the national sales manager of a large national travel agency. Okay. And that was really my first, let’s say, official position, doing admin secretary. In those days, you weren’t called a peer, you were a secretary. Yeah.

00:06:36
We’re talking a long time ago. Now we have over 160 titles according to the Global Skills Matrix out there. It’s incredible. It is incredible. We’re going to talk about your opinion and how the profession has changed, and I’m very excited to hear about that, going back in your early stages of being a secretary and, of course, the work you’ve been doing in the past years. So would you call South Africa home now?

00:06:58
Oh, absolutely. No doubt about it. I feel very at home here.

00:07:02
You know, from the moment that we landed, I mean, I arrived here in this country out of Rhodesia, Zimbabwe, you know, just slash that with a backslash there. And I came with a couch.

00:07:16
I think we had $500. Okay.

00:07:18
And maybe, I think, maybe a bed. I was with my fiancé. You know, we left the country. My parents followed after that. And we landed up in Johannesburg. That’s where we started out. Okay.

00:07:28
So even in Hillbrow, of all places, I mean, you mentioned Hillbrow and Joburg. Now people are like, what? It’s like a no-go zone at the moment.

00:07:39
But then, again, we are talking a while ago in the 80s. It was really okay.

00:07:45
It was an okay space to be. It was safe. It was a vibey place.

00:07:51
And that’s really how I started my life in South Africa. We had to start from absolute scratch.

00:07:59
And, you know, I literally, when I first arrived in South Africa, obviously, you know, you job hunt, and I went up to a public relations company that was in a building that on the bottom level was a health and fitness center. So I went up and I did this interview at this public relations company, but it was all females.

00:08:21
And I was like, so from all men as a secretary to all females in public relations, no, that’s not right.

00:08:29
so it’s amazing how your brain works you know it’s like holy wow I used to actually think that way but I actually was I declined the offer of the job I went downstairs walked into the gym and the owners for some reason they were drawn to me when we chatted and they said well we’re actually looking for something to run our whole administrative side and we’ll train you up to be a professional aerobics instructor well I come from a fitness background I was like oh wow what an amazing And yes, I just put my hand up. Yes, yes, yes, yes. I’m in. I’m in. I’m totally in. No hesitation. It was a good move, actually.

00:09:03
So would you say that you are a person who listens to stomach feelings rather than the head voice that is in you? Yeah.

00:09:12
I think there’s a time you have to use your head and really be very IQ based, especially on the financial side. I mean, your heart can tell you all sorts of things, but it doesn’t necessarily lead to a successful long-term outcome that’s sustainable. So I think there is merit to IQ, but most of my decisions are driven or initiated by

00:09:35
an intuition, a feel.

00:09:38
This feels right. If I feel right with this person, then I’ll have a block with another person. I like this environment. Oh, I don’t like that environment.

00:09:44
And we chatted about this earlier, of finding the right matches. If it’s professional, if it’s private, if it’s the opportunity of saying no to certain things, that it gives us a good feeling of knowing that it was meant to be a no, right? It doesn’t need to be a yes all the time.

00:10:01
So I was curious to find out, you know, what is the stronger voice in you? Is it the stomach or is it the head?

00:10:08
My husband and you just met him briefly downstairs. He’s the head and I’m more the stomach here. Oh, well, that’s a good balance. It is a good balance. That’s a great balance. That’s harmony. Sometimes he’s like, you know, listen to your head voice in that moment because the stomach might not be enough always. Exactly. Well, that’s symbiosis, right? Totally. Absolutely. Yeah. So you just mentioned that you started your career as an assistant very early in the 80s. And so what do you remember back then? We were all called secretaries. We were into admin stuff and admin coordination and organization, filing. We had tons of paper around us. Of course, all different ages back then. And don’t forget the typewriter. Yes.

00:10:50
Computers didn’t exist then, right? It was all typewriter and you had your carbon copy and you had your typics. Yes, of course.

00:10:57
How can I not mention that? And everything was faxed. There was no instant messaging. Totally. Did you learn shorthand? I learned shorthand. Yes, shorthand. Yeah, yeah.

00:11:06
I never used it, but I learned it.

00:11:08
So what were your thoughts back then in the profession? And what do you see now? How it changed over all these decades now when we are so into the future-proof world out there?

00:11:21
Well, I think, first of all, as a secretary and female, one can’t negate or disregard the societal impact or perception. Back then, you were a female, you were young, and you were a secretary. You were like a nobody in the larger scheme of things, in the larger context of a company.

00:11:42
The relationship, really, the dynamic was with the national sales manager. And he was great. I really liked him. He got on very, very well. I loved his family. They welcomed me. And a wife is very important. I think as a PA, you always have to bear in mind, if you’re working for a man, your greatest ally in that professional relationship is the partner to the boss that you report to and support. I can’t emphasize that enough. The relationship…

00:12:09
to be developed with the partner is a crucial, for me, a crucial step in having success in the world that you are in.

00:12:18
But going back to my role, I loved it. I really did. I left the police force.

00:12:24
It was a completely different experience I had a beautiful view onto a park, and I’m all about open spaces. So it just bred to my – or spoke to me on a different level that wasn’t, you know, like just business. So I love going to work in the mornings, and it was like, you know, bye, and we’d had a great day. And it was. It was diary management. We didn’t call it that at the time. It was making phone calls. It was speaking to customers and taking shorthand. Yeah. And doing reports and, yes. But, you know, there was no, like, you know, editing and things. You didn’t have a machine to kind of do all that, which you do today. So, you know, in many ways, I think that there’s, you know, again, it’s kind of like evolution, isn’t it? You can’t look back to that and say, if only we still had that, or back then to look to the future going, I wish I had that. It was what it was, and it is what it is.

00:13:15
However, I would say that in the workplace environment, there was more for human connection.

00:13:25
It was more about collaboration, clear lines, transparency, and heart. I find that a lot of those aspects are missed today because we’re so reliant

00:13:38
on instant messaging, which creates just all that by itself. You are in constant demand. You’re expected to answer within seconds. It’s like stopping at a robot these days and the robot has just gone green and people are hooting around. Same thing. We’ve become so, everything must happen like now. So patience has gone.

00:13:58
Listening skills barely exist, and where they do, that’s magic.

00:14:03
That’s really a magical quality to have, an arch. We’ll speak about his grace in a little while, but that was my learning from him, is the talent or the skill to listen. And observe. And observe, yes, of course. Well, listening allows you to observe, right? Because you’ve paused. It’s so true. Yeah, yeah. So that’s an inherent factor to that. Mm-hmm. But in terms of from then to now, I think that the human connection has been so diminished. We’ve literally lost part of ourselves because we’ve become so reliant on machinery, AI.

00:14:40
You do a document and you do a control A if you’re on a Mac like I am. It highlights the whole thing and you go justify and the whole thing gets justified. It’s not like you’re a typewriter and having to like, how do I get that to end there? So I think that The excitement is gone. It’s all very driven by IQ, instant responses, must be this, must be perfect. It’s like everybody’s trying to take a breath.

00:15:04
And we have tons of windows open in our computer, and there’s one messenger, and there’s one email coming in, there’s a phone call coming in. And now, of course, the remote work. So we deal with people through a webcam. And so what do you think, how can heart respond?

00:15:21
happen this way I mean how do we stay closely connected and how do we deal with conflicts when we look at someone in the webcam and we don’t get to see these people for a couple of weeks but we’ll we have a conflict to solve any advice from you how would you see the situation as an assistant specifically

00:15:40
Well, I think that really comes down to the element of emotional intelligence, right? You know, self-awareness. You know how you feel on a bad day. You know how you feel from a lack of sleep. You know what you feel like when you’ve had an instant message which gives you really bad news. And the reactive process. Do you have fight, flight, or do you freeze? So if it applies to you, with EQ, you can identify or at least intuit. I suppose that’s obviously individually whether a person has intuition or not. But I think we can all see or we sense something. We might not name it, but we do know.

00:16:17
So when you know that about yourself and you see that in another person and you know where they’re at, there’s such an opportunity there. To connect with that person. I mean, to really stop and say, how are you? And to then shut up, like zip the lips, pause, stop walking, and actually listen to what they tell you back. Because we are on such a rote. Have you ever watched people, even I do it often, you’re walking down the street and you see somebody and you go, hey, how are you? And they’re actually carrying on walking. You’re carrying on walking and you’re going, oh, I’m fine. Meanwhile, they’ve actually moved on. And you’re going, wow, that was like no connection there, right?

00:16:54
It’s true.

00:16:54
Yeah. So I think that the ability to read where people are at happens because you know how to read yourself. And I think if you don’t even know yourself, how can you possibly know where other people are at?

00:17:09
And you know what makes me so sad is when I work with assistants in my coaching sessions and they keep telling me that their executive has no time to sit down with them, to go through the agenda, to go through the schedule, to make the travel planning.

00:17:21
And it makes me so sad because both parties should be aware that this is crucial time. And there should be, every day when it’s possible, a little check-in in the morning to really harmonize on the goals and to really… I have an understanding that’s what I try to get my executives into when I propose that I would love to have a check-in in the morning and a check-out in the evening just in order to find out did their priorities shift. And I need to be aware. I need to be the first person who needs to be aware because I manage the agenda. I manage the emails. I have the overview of everything.

00:18:02
So have you ever encountered these issues in your career that there was lacking of attention from your executives, not having the right moment of time for you to give all the information to you? Because now in the future of work, we get information through WhatsApp. We get information through a messenger because the executives don’t have the time to sit down with their assistants. Would you say it was much better back then?

00:18:29
That’s a good question. Can I pause that? I just want to step back. You asked me about what do you do when you’re on remote and there’s a conflict and how do you handle that? I think it really, with self-awareness, you have social awareness, is to actually ask the appropriate questions, to do a discovery without… that person’s feeling threatened or they’re being accused of something. I think that way you build back rapport and then you can, through open-ended questions, you can discover where they’re at and ask if there’s anything you can help them with. See what comes from that. That breaks down the barrier. I have found that myself. So I just wanted to address that and finish that point. Okay, so I’m so sorry, I’m going to have to ask you, just repeat the question.

00:19:11
So lack of time that the executives also, because they are also pressured with the new ways of working, they also have to manage their tools. And sometimes when they go back to their assistants and they say, well, I need to run to the next meeting, I don’t have time. So I always challenge my coaching clients to tell with a strong voice and let their executives know, yes, but I’m here responsible for your time. I’m your efficiency manager. I’m your productivity manager. If you don’t sit with me, we cannot work on it.

00:19:42
would you say it was easier back then without technology oh yes yeah it was much easier because the first thing you did is you took your boss a coffee or tea right with your pad and your pencil to do shorthand to take notes so I mean right there I mean to start the day you that’s the first thing that you did whether it was newspapers so like with the arch I would it would be like he’d arrive and we’d bring him a hot chocolate and all his newspapers would have been laid out and Then we would all, like, it was so cute. He would come in and the whole staff would literally line up and come up and give him a hug. Good morning. How beautiful. And then we’d make our way to his office. And it would be at that moment that I would say, is there anything that’s a priority? And he would say, not right now, dearie. Thank you. So it was all, and if he did, then he would just, you know, sort of give me a little bullet point, bullet list. Right. So I think that it depends.

00:20:30
I think it very much depends on the relationship.

00:20:34
I think if you, again, I’m going to say it again. If it’s all IQ, it’s all skills-based, it’s all task-driven, and there is no heart connection, there’s no relationship, there’s no communication, like just relaxed communication,

00:20:50
then I think right there is the biggest stumbling block that exists because you’re just like an AI Alexa. Exactly. You’re just in a human body. So, you know, it’s all by rote. It’s just a disconnect. And I feel that that is very much predominant in the industry today, whether that’s virtual or traditional. Right.

00:21:12
So I think the basis of… PA executive PA or virtual assistant or whatever other you know title that one carries at the end of the day you’re still a secretary bottom line is we’re all just full secretaries but you know a vaster skill set more technology to assist us in our proficiency and professionalism but

00:21:36
I think it’s about building the relationship with the person. So even if it’s IQ, even if it’s task driven, if you as the individual, sorry, I tend to draw.

00:21:44
No, I love what you say. Keep going.

00:21:47
So I think you, the individual with the title you hold, the bottom line is you have a relationship with that executive. Mm-hmm. That’s your primary interface point. So ask questions.

00:22:01
You make the pause point. You create the pause point.

00:22:05
You just bring him a cup of coffee or her a cup of coffee. I’m talking, obviously, this is a traditional role now because virtual, that wouldn’t work. But you can still send them a digital coffee image or whatever just to make that link. Because that’s the connection at the heart level, right? And ask the question. Don’t give that person a moment in time to ponder and make you feel like you’re wasting their time. It’s like, hi, Dennis. Okay, here’s your tea. I’ve just thought you might like this because you seem rushed today.

00:22:33
What’s a priority right now in this moment that I can take away and off your plate? Very good. But if we’re just so intimidated at the idea that, oh, he doesn’t want to talk to me, she doesn’t have time for me, well, that’s a story in your own head. So there’s a saying, when I used to teach or lecture in the EQ for leadership in corporates, one of the processes that we ran and through that was, if you have a challenge, if you have a problem,

00:22:58
And you are wanting to make that change. Because as long as you wait for somebody else to make the change, you could wait a very long time and then it never happens. You want change. The only person who can actually do that is, I hate to tell you this, you. You are the one to initiate. You are the one to motivate. You are the one to think outside the box.

00:23:18
So how do you create an awareness in another person that’s completely blind to the need for change? Well, you have to build the bridge. It’s about communication.

00:23:28
And one of the things in the leadership program was you’ve got to try 33 different approaches. What does Einstein say? What’s one of his famous sayings? You do the same thing the same way over and over and over again and expect a different result. Well, that’s some sort of insanity. I mean, I’m not sure I got the quote right, but the essence is there. So yeah, so if you’re trying to approach your boss the same way and saying, first of all, your body language is one of frustration, then your tone of voice is completely negative, then you’re short, you don’t use the right terminology, no, that’s not going to work, right? It just isn’t going to work. Absolutely. 33 different ways. I guarantee you by the time you’ve tried the fourth, fifth, sixth time, a different way, a different approach, it’s either going to work or you’ve got to realize that, do I want to stay in this job or do I want to find something else? Because it’s never going to change. That person doesn’t have that capacity. So it’s still a choice.

00:24:22
You’re not a victim. No one is ever a victim. There’s always a choice. And the choice is to make the choice to leave. The choice is to actually say something. The choice is to be silent in the moment and to listen. It’s still a choice. Nobody can tell me no one has a choice. Everyone has choice.

00:24:37
But we are sometimes so afraid to take a decision, right?

00:24:42
And I’ve seen assistants, not only assistants, people also in my closer community of friends, they stay in these toxic environments in their companies and they keep on telling me all these negative stories. And I always say to them, jump, you know, jump, even if you don’t have a solution yet.

00:25:00
You know, the moment you close the door, another one will open and you are not even aware of it now, which direction it may bring you.

00:25:07
So would you say that you are a person who loves to jump?

00:25:10
Oh, I love to jump. I’ve had to jump so many times, redefine myself. You know, I’ve had no consistency in traditional roles. I’ve been an entrepreneur. I’ve been a personal trainer, a fitness instructor. You know, I’ve run commercial and corporate facility gyms. I’ve appeared high net with people. I’ve worked for government in terms of the MP, the Minister of Parliament in 1989.

00:25:38
So I’ve been in corporate mining. It’s so diverse, but underpinning every single transition is the need for administration.

00:25:47
Whether in an entrepreneurial role, it’s a bit more expanded because you’re running now your own books, your finance, your marketing, your sales, because you’ve got to drive your own business. You all know this, Diana. Of course. You have your own business. Of course. Whereas in a job, and I think that’s the distinction. Yeah.

00:26:02
I mean, look, I still experience moments of fear. You know, it’s like I wouldn’t be a human being if I didn’t have moments of fear or like, oh, wow, is this the right decision?

00:26:13
But, you know, a decision is better than no decision. To sit in a static flight pattern, you know, it’s eventually that if you’re an airplane going around and around, you’re eventually going to run out of fuel and crash. Same thing if you’re rotating around and around and the job that you’ve ready to get up in the morning for that is like stressful.

00:26:33
You need to jump or you’ve got to do what I said just now and do 33 different approaches to try and make that connection and resolve the issue, resolve the situation so it’s better for you.

00:26:44
But I will say most people that are stuck in those patterns, it’s money, it’s finance. It’ll come down to either they’re single parents if we’re talking about ladies or They’re going through a divorce. They might be in a marriage and it’s not stable.

00:26:59
There might be just this free enterprising into virtual. And money, I think, drives the fear level or judgment from friends because you’re now working for this person in this corporation and it’s giving you some kind of status to let go of that. Well, then who am I now? Mm-hmm.

00:27:19
So fear is the thing that will keep you keeping people.

00:27:22
Absolutely, it’s blocking people. Yeah. I agree.

00:27:24
And it’s being able to identify, well, what is holding me here? And if you can’t list that out, then unfortunately you sleepwalking in your job. It really is just by right. Mm-hmm.

00:27:36
I’m very disconnected. I’m glad you’re a jumper as well. I love to jump as well. Yes. Oh, yeah. You know, when I was in the UK in 2020 after the Arvidsch, I ended my role with him in January in 2020. Went to the UK because I could see the pandemic coming in. I mean, you just have to look at news cycles and you can see what’s happening. I was like, oh my gosh. Okay. So, you know, my age wasn’t really in my favor. I am in South Africa. B-E-E-B-B-E-E. How many B’s and E’s? It’s just like, no, this wasn’t any longer a viable environment for me. Um,

00:28:11
And so I decided to go back to the UK, right at the height of the pandemic. I arrived, within five days I had COVID.

00:28:19
It was so bad that actually paramedics came in in the hazmat suits because we weren’t sure if I’d have to go in an ambulance. Fortunately, my O2, my oxygen levels were right on the line. So that was great. And I recovered in 10 days. Then I went into training, into the care industry. And it was such a good move. It was strategic, right? It was like, okay, I need to earn a salary. And I need to go somewhere where it’s going to be necessary for me to work. It’s not a luxury job. It’s not something that somebody can just go, sorry for you. My business is closing down. You no longer have relevance. I had to be relevant. And so that was the care industry.

00:28:54
Interesting.

00:28:55
So I did that for the year. And everywhere you had to have paperwork and you’re an essential worker. So you were classified as an essential worker. So it didn’t matter where I was going. I was always allowed to pass through.

00:29:06
county lines, et cetera, and go from one part of the country to another to look after these amazing people. I’ve always loved that role as a carer. I think it teaches you tremendous humility and servant leadership. That was one of the things of the archbishop, you know, servant leadership. It’s like you’re not just you. You’re you contributing to others and uplifting them and empowering them. So that was really why I also went back into caring was because of the influence of the arch.

00:29:37
So anyway, and then towards the end of that role, it was very interesting. They were introducing, this could be a bit controversial. I don’t mean to push anybody’s buttons, but they were introducing the vaccine and I was never going to have that vaccination. Experimental? Hell no.

00:29:51
No way. It wasn’t going to happen.

00:29:53
And I decided to come back to South Africa. I had no idea. I had no job.

00:29:57
I had no home.

00:29:58
I had no clue how to earn, how was I going to earn an income? But you know what? My freedom of choice,

00:30:05
meant more to me than being forced into a situation that I was not going to comply with. And so I wanted to respect the elderly. I wasn’t going to vaccinate. And so therefore, in that sort of age group, that’s very much what they were going to require. And I wanted to step away with grace. So I made the decision to come home. And I remember my daughter at the time going, you know, mom, you’re going to give up your UK pound, your sterling. I mean, good Lord, look at the currency exchange. I’m like, sweetheart, there is nothing more important than one’s own health. And I’m not going to risk that for the sake of a salary. So yeah, I resigned my role and I came back to South Africa. I moved in with my son who lives in our family home and he had to retire.

00:30:44
He had to adapt to his mom, you know, living in the house again. That was fun.

00:30:49
It was the other way around.

00:30:50
It was the other way around. He used to like kind of freak out and go, mom, mom, I still live with my mom. I’m like, no, sweetheart, you’ve got that wrong. It’s like, I am hosting my mother. It sounds far better. I’m sure you prefer that, right? And he was like, oh yeah, that’s a great way to say it. Okay, cool. So yeah, so just talking about like how do you leap? How do you jump? It’s like sometimes it’s just, it’s really about your own integrity, right? And your own truth. And you’ve got to live that. And you’re 100% right. Every time that I’ve made that jump, whether I’ve had a job to come back to, a salary that I would be earning, I’ve made the jump with no knowledge of what would come next. And you know what? Miraculously, that door opens. See, here we go. And the Archbishop is another door that miraculously opened for me. Being on your podcast is a miraculous opening of a door. Mm-hmm.

00:31:36
And I can’t wait, of course, to talk about more of His Grace, because you’ve been mentioning His name quite a few times, and it was for sure a very important stage in your career, serving for Him five years. Archbishop Desmond Tutu, of course, we’re talking about. A huge…

00:31:54
name for all of our listeners. And it’s incredible from the outside to watch the person. And you got closer to him. So you’ve been mentioning, you came in in the morning, looking at these papers, having a hot chocolate. Did he have these kind of routines every single day?

00:32:13
Was he sticking to routines?

00:32:15
Was he a big fan of routines? Yes. He’d come into the office three times a week, so I was working for him three days a week. I started as a half-day job and quickly evolved into a full-time job. And then even the other two days, I was working full-time because of the fact that I was out of an office. So my job really became 24-7. I’m sure people can appreciate how that can happen.

00:32:38
The foundation itself, I think they really wanted him to be only half a day.

00:32:45
So, you know, he would leave like by three o’clock in the afternoon. And his son-in-law, Tunzi, probably one of the nicest, kindest people I’ve ever known. He truly was absolutely fabulous and so good to his grace.

00:32:59
Obviously, he’s the son-in-law as well. So he played a very, very prominent role in the archer’s entire career right up to when he passed away. So Tunzi and I used to have to work closely together and travel together on different occasions. And, of course, Mama Lea, Mrs. Tutu, she was a large component of the archer’s constellation of people.

00:33:23
And then, of course, he has that expanded family. So that’s one side of the archer. On the other, in terms of coming into the office, having a routine, even out of an office, he still carried that routine at home. Oh, lovely. So his mornings was all about hot chocolate. That was his favorite drink. Also loved rum and raisin ice cream. Oh, sounds good.

00:33:42
Yeah.

00:33:42
So like special events, occasions, if he was being honored or he was doing a speech and a dinner was afterwards. Yeah. It was always a rum and raisin ice cream as an option, just for Arch, and hot chocolate. Always hot chocolate had to be available for him.

00:33:56
So, and obviously newspapers were important. I would put in from the day before or early in the morning, because he’d come in after me, prepare documents, like things that he needed to. So we used to have the plastic folders, and each one had a title, like correspondence, important, media requests.

00:34:14
So those would all be in his entry. So once I’d gone in, I would follow him after we’d all hugged him hello, of course, follow him to his office.

00:34:23
And then he would, you know, his papers would be there, his hot chocolate would be there. And I would just quickly show him what folders and could he take time. And then I’d close the door. And then 10 o’clock would be tea time where the whole staff would come together. We had this huge table. We were at the V&A.

00:34:37
That’s a nice routine.

00:34:38
So there was this, twice a day, he insisted that everybody would come to the table no matter what they were doing. It was a time for the human connection. Yes. Story sharing. No cell phones. No cell phones, no nothing. And there were biscuits and tea. And our tea lady was wonderful as well. And the staff were great and worked with amazing people. I will tell you that. And the first few years, his daughter, she was the managing director. And of course, she played a significant role. um and she was wonderful a great character and i remember her often sitting at the table with her knitting needles knitting away and the arch um he at that point the folders would come back to me and then he’d go back to his office as part of his routine i would then go through the the paperwork and then i would liaise between business manager and the managing director on like you know things that were

00:35:27
about to be actioned. And then we would go back in, bring him his lunch, and then he would go into prayer. And that was a standard practice for him every day that he was at the office.

00:35:38
And the same thing when he was home out of the office, even when he moved to Hermanus, that was still part of his routine. Beautiful area, by the way. Yes, yeah. The whales. Yeah, the whales. So yeah. So the arch loved, you know, he worked on his routine and his contemplation and prayer were really very important to him. And I think,

00:35:58
There were a couple, I mean, a couple, one thing, how silly of me, multiple, innumerable learnings.

00:36:06
I was going to ask you, what are the core learnings you took away from it?

00:36:09
I can name a few core, but I think one of the things I really recognize, we spoke about authenticity when we chatted before we started the podcast.

00:36:20
And the Arch for me, the Arch is Archbishop Desmond Tutu, His Grace. So he loved everybody to call him Arch. So Arch was one of, he was the most authentic person I think I’ve ever had the privilege to meet. If he wanted to be quiet, he would let you know. Dearie, I just want to be quiet now. If he was active, then he was active. If he was in a great mood, everybody was in a great mood. Because when he laughs, no matter where you are, if you can hear him laughing, everyone would join in that laughter. Because he was such a joy-filled person. He was incredibly generous. And I mean, I used to escort him down to…

00:37:00
you know a luncheon for example that was in the diary yeah and your people would would just flock they would flock with their mobile phones to ask him for photographs of course you know i’m acting as like security and you know protection and i’d say please can you give him the space and then one day we were going down the stairs and a lady came up to him and i put my hand was it because you he’s on his way to an appointment and he took my hand he said dear you know

00:37:23
I think on this one occasion, let’s allow the photographs, okay?

00:37:27
Generosity. Yeah.

00:37:29
And his whole thing was about if I can touch somebody’s life in a positive way, if by speaking with me, having a photograph with me, interfacing with me, even for a moment, if that can give joy to somebody and meaning to somebody, then that’s what I want to do. That’s why I’m here.

00:37:46
And again, it comes all back together.

00:37:49
He showed his heart. He showed his heart, yeah. Art was all about heart. I will say on the other side of that, when he needed to manage, he definitely knew how to do that. If he needed to put boundaries in place, if he knew when to say no, he really was…

00:38:05
He was an incredible person. Touched my life. He was the consummate gentleman.

00:38:12
He would never walk through a door in front of me. He would always open my car door. I watched him with Mrs. Tutu. It was a love story that you read about in novels. It’s spoiled me in many ways.

00:38:27
I’d love to experience that with a partner. That would be so cool. I’m single, so I haven’t been in a relationship for a long, long, long time. Because I just don’t find that exists anymore. It’s just like an obsolete idea. So in terms of being his PA,

00:38:44
It was a privilege. You know, I had to go through four levels of interviews before ultimately I sat with him.

00:38:53
And, you know, Arch used to speak about the Rainbow Nation and that all religions and faiths were completely one. You know, they were all welcomed and respected. Yes. And I remember him asking me like in the interview, of course, I was so nervous. Yeah. And the one thing that struck me is that he had a lazy boy in his office. He said, do you mind if I kick back, you know, and just sit in my chair?

00:39:16
Your recliner.

00:39:17
Yes, my recliner. And I was like, yes, of course. That’s a comfortable interview.

00:39:21
So, you know, he kind of sat back and then he put his hands together, you know, how we would do that, and he closed his eyes and he said, I am going to ask questions and I’m going to listen to your responses. Is that okay? And I said, yes, of course.

00:39:37
And one of the questions he ultimately asked me is like, do you believe in God? And I said to him, well, you know, one looks at creation. How can one not believe in the presence or the creation of God, so to speak? And I said to him, however, I don’t follow dogmatic religion. I don’t, I’m not in a formal religion. I would say I’m more, I tiptoe in and out across all religions because they all have interface points. And that’s more where my faith resides. And he said, that’s very beautiful. He said, that falls right into my philosophy of all faiths, all religions. So that’s wonderful.

00:40:14
Beautiful. And I just remember that being so, well, you know. What were your thoughts when you went out of this interview? Did you have confidence in yourself that you’re going to land a job?

00:40:26
Yes. I had confidence, but I think it doesn’t matter how confident you are. There’s always that tiny percentage of, well, you know, maybe you didn’t quite work it. as confident as you might feel. But I got a call within a couple of hours to say, yeah, it was a match. You’ve got the job. Thank you so much. Please, when can you start? And then it was just a process of doing handover and moving into that role.

00:40:49
But it was a lot. And the VA before me, Vivian Ford,

00:40:53
She was incredible. She was with him for seven years. And she was with him during, you know, real peak time where he was a real public figure, a global figure. So again, Tuan Tzu fits into that. And then before Vivian, there were a host of other VAPAs. And they’ve all been at pivotal points in Archer’s career. You know, every one of them. at a different junction. And like you, you were part of the transition, right? So, yeah. So my junction came and I think one of the main reasons I got that role that appealed to his daughter because she herself and the managing, the managing, what do you call them? Business manager.

00:41:29
Yeah.

00:41:30
Carol Allendale. They were the two that interviewed me just before the arch. And there was another lady. So there were two. So we’d been shortlisted down to two ladies. So there’s myself, which is a very diverse background and a caring background, right? And then there was a lady who was very corporate. She came from a complete exclusive corporate environment. So she had every skill set you would need. Now, if it had been the peak of his career, that was a fit. But

00:41:55
It was important for the foundation, for his family, that the arch moved because of his age and his health from full-time into part-time and then to transition to being retired. Now, my role as a carer working with high-profile individuals, every one of them hugely successful.

00:42:15
And for them to move from active life into…

00:42:21
And having a doctor say, well, you know, you’ve been in hospital, you broke your hip, you have to have a carer. It’s a real challenge for people. It really, really is. I can’t emphasize that enough. You know, you’ve been autonomous, independent, you’ve made your own decisions. Now you’ve got this person living in your home. Like, what?

00:42:36
Exactly. Who are you? So, you know, you have to move through those barriers of resistance. And again, so like a boss, 33 different ways, right? So a carer with a client, 33 different ways. How do you connect so you can build that rapport and that trust? So I think that really what appealed to the third interview was the fact that I had a caring background because they felt that it would be more –

00:43:00
of the Arch to make that transition. And it really was very appropriate because, you know, for the Arch, it was like, it was a big transition for him. He was a global figure. He was a public face, but voice. I will share that at the end, in the two years that he was in Hermanus, so I ran his office completely autonomously. It was amazing. He had such trust in me, you know, with the foundation. And, you know, there were great stuff that I’d have to interface with there as well.

00:43:27
So we were a good team. And then I’d go through on a Thursday, and he would do his Eucharist. So I would pick him up, I’d drive him to church, and then I would have set up coffees for people to meet with him and do their little sessions with him. Then I would drive him back, and then we would have our big Advent. So I used to have all these folders all over his floor and his study and open each one up and he’d go, wow, dearie, we’re busy today and, you know, whatever. And, you know, ambassadors, we would organize for them to go. Hermanus, the president of South Africa, saw him at Posa. He came for tea with the arch at his home in Hermanus. That was quite the thing with all the vehicles and the police and the army. That was really quite something.

00:44:06
But really, at the end of the day, his whole stance in his last period of time as a public figure was, it’s time for new faces to be seen. It’s time for new voices to to be heard, for new leadership to come up, for new human rights activists to have a say. And he said, you know, it’s impossible to fix the problems of the world as one person.

00:44:36
And he would get requests from all across the globe on a multitude of levels, you know, for all sorts of things. Of course. He’s just one person. Now, I used to have to say, you know, you will know this, Diana, as a gatekeeper, when you’re gatekeeping for somebody,

00:44:53
It’s hard to say no sometimes. But people who had had access to him for so long, he would just say yes, yes, yes. And then he eventually had to start saying no. There was a lot of resistance to that. So a lot of people would say behind my back or to other people, who’s this Atrayah saying no? Who’s the tough one here? What’s going on here? We used to have all this access to the arch.

00:45:17
And it was really a case of me having to say, do you have a grandparent? How old is your grandparent? Would you expect your grandparent to have to appear at 8 o’clock at night at an event that you’re throwing because somebody wants your grandparent? And they go, well, actually, no. And I say, well, maybe if you frame the arch in that same category, 8 o’clock at night for him is not a time of the evening that he really wants to be…

00:45:40
out and about you know so that and again that goes to how do i how can i connect with this person to gain the understanding and then eventually there we go okay fine i see that point of view absolutely so i’m very interested to know if you um had a chance to say goodbye to him before he left this world uh no i i didn’t i we used to sms if you’re saying personally no but uh by sms yes we used to stay in contact uh via that that mode that mean and also an email

00:46:11
And we’d often exchange very short because he wasn’t writing in-depth email. But he always used to call me dearie. I mean, he did that to a lot of people. But it was a real endearment. It’s so hard to encapsulate my relationship with the Arch because it was so deeply personal. And it was also so…

00:46:36
it needed to also be and remain very professional. So it was like an interface, you know, there was like this interface between professional and personal.

00:46:48
But trust was there, respect was there,

00:46:52
Communication was very clear. And in his last period of time, he was with family. It was really his family who surrounded him. The board of directors of the foundation, obviously they played a key role. The trustees, the Desmond Tutu Trust, they were present towards the end of his time.

00:47:13
But no, my time with him had ended and I didn’t feel it was right for me to request a time to spend with him. I really didn’t. But I will say when I came back from caring in 2020, I did have tea with both him and my mother-in-law. Yes, I went to their home in Mullerton because they’d moved back from Hermanus by that time.

00:47:34
And yes, I went and had a big catch-up with them. And of course, it was hot chocolate.

00:47:38
And hot chocolate, I was going to say that.

00:47:39
It was just tea too, yeah.

00:47:41
So that was the last time that I spent with both of them. And then I think it was like one or two email exchanges after that with him personally. So no, I just felt it would lack integrity for me to try and get to him towards the end. So I wanted just to respect that boundary. Yeah.

00:47:59
I think I would have done the same, absolutely.

00:48:03
So fast forward, Ms. VA, you are the founder of Ms. VA 2020.

00:48:10
So how does it feel now working as a virtual assistant, being surrounded by the foundation and all the other steps in your career earlier where there was always a team involved and now you’re on your own. Was it hard to have that shift or was it a meaningful decision for you?

00:48:29
Well, I’d have to backtrack to 2013. I’d been a carer then as well in that period of time, 2011 to 2013.

00:48:40
And then I went back in 2020. And then before that, 2008.

00:48:44
But that period in 2013, I worked for a family who had relocated from France to London, or to Brighton to be precise. And that was really the birthing of Miss VA.

00:48:56
Right then and there. So I took care of everything. I lived with the family in their home. And so I just ran calendars for her as well as the children and just the PA role. But it was more a formalized approach. It was just such an incredible experience. And there was also a lot of concierge because I used to go to country homes and prep like put flowers and make sure the linen was there and the pantries were full. So that’s more on the concierge side. You could say it’s PA, but you could also liken it. It’s kind of like a cross-purpose, like a hybridization of the two career paths that you could take. So Miss VA really came from that. It was an idea at the time. It’s like, well, I really love this. I love this role. And so when I came back to South Africa then, I started my own agency, Organize Me Please. But you can have a great idea, and you can have great skills, and you can have great personality.

00:49:51
But you know what? Without the financial plan and a proper business plan, that’s very sound.

00:49:55
It’s all going to flop like a bad souffle. So unfortunately, that kind of got brushed off to one side. But it never left me. So Miss VA 2020 really is a continuation of that.

00:50:09
I really love that. And my role with the arch was finished. What do I do now? My daughter was like, Mom.

00:50:14
you really should consider being like a virtual assistant. You can work anywhere in the world from a laptop. And I was like, oh, I don’t know. It’s like, you know, all this hesitation. And we speak about like how people can go round and round in a circle, right? So I was doing that and I was like, heck no. I’m very good at what I do. I love what I do. I have a passion for the industry, for the people in it, and for the profession as a whole. And incredible people that are in these jobs, right? Men and women. Absolutely.

00:50:42
And so Miss VA came about because I really wanted to offer a service to entrepreneurs, to high net worth individuals, to people, families. And I find in the world today, because we’re so busy, busy, busy, always on the go, so much gets lost through the cracks. People forget things. People lose sight of stuff. And really, my role is to take on that nitty-gritty administration, which I’m sure you can relate to.

00:51:13
Oh, yes. We are here to make lives easier.

00:51:15
Easier, yeah.

00:51:18
And so that’s really where that came from. And I love it. I really do. It’s like calendar management, email management, dealing with difficult customers, customer service. I learned how to do invoicing, which actually I found I really enjoy. Okay.

00:51:32
Not accounting. I was going to say, are you into bookkeeping already? Bookkeeping? No, no, no. But invoicing, yes. Right now, I have five very distinct clients, and they are so diverse. One’s in IT. Another’s in the medical side of things, mental health. Another is a CEO of a large coaching company that has offices in Dubai.

00:51:56
Helsinki, London, right? So I’m dealing with that. So when you’re working with a CEO, again, there’s a constellation of their executives. So you might work for this one individual, however, you’re then actually working for many, many other people, or you’re assisting other people that are wanting to interface with her. So that makes it dynamic and exciting. That’s lovely to hear all those different customers.

00:52:21
Yeah, yeah. And obviously there’s a focus always on that different customer, right? Exactly.

00:52:25
I’ve even worked with farmers. You know, I’ve had one of my clients, two of my clients have been farmers. And I mean, yeah, in South Africa, I might tell you. All my other clients are international farmers. So Miss VA, really, my focus is really on the international client, Europe, London.

00:52:43
And right now, I’m wanting to grow. I’ve got the capacity to grow. I’m wanting to take on my own personal clients and expand. And through that expansion process, it may be that I have this particular or a particular skill set. But if a client actually is looking for something that I don’t have, What an incredible opportunity in South Africa with the huge unemployment levels to actually offer that opening to somebody with that skill set and align those two people together. Right? I know. So it’s not just about me. For me, Miss VA is also about offering opportunity. And then also you and I were talking earlier, and I just wanted to say to your audience that Diana is like an amazing person. She’s amazing. If you’ve never actually seen Diana, she has this incredible light and she’s very generous and just the most beautiful spirit. She’s incredible.

00:53:38
I think you’re incredible, Diana. Thank you so much. So you had said to me earlier, like, because we were speaking about my public speaking. Exactly.

00:53:46
I was going to say it again. I mean, how did you pass on your knowledge from this amazing career? Because there are for sure right now listeners who keep wondering, how can we boogie? you how do i find you don’t worry people we’re going to put everything in the show notes and make sure you check them out connect with her on linkedin but is there any specific message you want to share with us yeah um you know public speaking i mean you know i’ve had that in my background uh do i do it now specifically as a profession no am i available to to evolve into that yes um

00:54:18
So my subject matter on the public stage has been theoretical cosmology. And the coaching side has been emotional intelligence, social intelligence, spiritual intelligence into leadership. Because EQ is the primary. And I think social and spiritual underpin the emotional intelligence. So those three form the trinity for me in my book. I’m talking entirely from my personal perspective.

00:54:44
Absolutely.

00:54:45
IQ is a given. We all have a brain. We all have to use intelligence. So that is a given thing that you have. You either learn a skill, you learn, develop, that’s IQ. So that’s just a default. That’s there. But emotional intelligence is a specific skill set.

00:55:02
Social intelligence, spiritual intelligence, and spiritual is not religion. Spiritual is like, did you notice the sunset this morning? Do you hear the birds when they are chirping in your garden and stop to listen? Do you actually connect with a pet? Like, really take that time. Do you really connect with your family and put away cell phones? That’s spiritual intelligence. That’s really connecting with somebody, the connection. And that even means your boss.

00:55:33
You sparked an idea for me which I hadn’t considered before.

00:55:38
You know, when I talk to people, let’s say somebody will phone me to come into Cape Town, they’ll ask me, please, can we have lunch or coffee? I really have an issue that I’m dealing with. I’d really love your input. And, you know, we’ll be chatting away and it’ll always go back to open questions and EQ and just asking the right questions that they are able to come to their own conclusion. Because you always want somebody to find their own answer. Yes, absolutely. You never want to tell somebody something. That’s coaching. Right? That’s coaching. And they always say to me like, oh, do you have a blog or do you do, what do you do? I mean, you have to get your, you know, you have to speak to people. And I was like. That’s what I keep saying. So I loved your idea of like taking the atmosphere and perhaps evolving that to the public stage.

00:56:20
But also not just that, but you have like online small events.

00:56:25
workshops about EQ. How does a VA or EA learn this as a skill set? Because it doesn’t matter how many rote skills you have. Anybody can learn a skill if they put their mind to that. That’s just a skill. It’s technical. Right.

00:56:40
But the heart, the connection, the collaboration, the community you develop within an organization that you sit in, being transparent and authentic, that has to come from within you.

00:56:54
How do you tap into that?

00:56:55
The inner you. Yeah.

00:56:57
I would love to, to see that workshop coming into live. And I’m happy to support whenever you need my help, of course. And maybe we get feedback from the listeners if you’re interested that we run such a workshop. Anything with you, Diana, would be a great idea. And introduce it to our European community. And I think because a lot of VAs are listening to this podcast as well. We have a lot of communities out there. And I always keep recommending VAs to many of my clients. So, yeah. Why not bring this to life?

00:57:27
Well, look at that, the birth of something new. I just want to quickly add to that that, you know, part of that process or part of any relationship is how are you authentic? I mean, do you really know somebody? Do you even really know your partner?

00:57:41
Mm-hmm.

00:57:42
I don’t think people do. I mean, you might want to go on a trip to India this year, but your partner, they don’t even have a clue that that’s what you want to do. And yet you’re upset when they go, no, I don’t want to go to India. But you never ever ask the question. So if you haven’t explored that or had the discovery session or even on the same page with your partner,

00:58:01
Combined values. You can have your own sets of values. But where’s your interface values? Where do they exist? So mission statements. I see that in corporations. Boy, it’s so rare to find a corporation or a company, even an individual, that even adheres, even remotely. And the purpose behind it, right? Like, why are you in this organization? The why. Yes. Where is the why?

00:58:22
I remember I had also a wonderful connection with a former assistant to Simon Sinek, the Y guy. Yeah, yeah. The Y guy, you know, who invented the Y. And it was so interesting to meet her as well, to find out how it was to work with a Y guy. Right. And what her Y was, by the way. So I have my Y, and I always share this with my audiences, what my Y is. Yeah.

00:58:49
But yeah, I would love to talk more about the plant we just made.

00:58:54
Now it’s official. We have it on tape here.

00:58:57
But, you know, I could have talked with you for hours and hours.

00:59:02
I cannot believe we talked for an hour actually right now. You gave away so much wonderful, wonderful information.

00:59:09
Also, you gave insight how it was working with the arch. Thank you so much for sharing that with us. But as I told you earlier, I…

00:59:19
was more interested in finding out so much more about you, not only that part of the career.

00:59:24
But of course, it was incredible to learn how you worked with him. And I will never forget the hot chocolate as of now. It’s also one of my favorites, by the way. So…

00:59:35
Truly grateful and thankful that you came to meet me up here. I can’t wait to stay in touch with you and to see what comes next.

00:59:44
We want to say thank you to all the listeners out there for taking the time to choose the Future Assistant podcast. I know you do have questions. choices out there when it comes to the podcast, but it’s always a pleasure having you here on the show. I always handpick the guests. I do my research. It is always a joy meeting these people then in real life. Like I was just saying that it’s good to actually sit in front of a live person again and not through Zoom. Yes, it helped me through the pandemic, but it has a different quality level sitting here. And I felt very comfortable during this talk. I hope you did the same. And thanks again for coming.

01:00:24
Diana, you’re so gracious. Thank you so much.

01:00:28
It’s been a delight, actually, to be here. And to the audience, thank you for taking the time to listen. I hope that what I shared has some kind of value for you. But Diana…

01:00:42
Thank you very much. All the best to you.

01:00:46
Thank you.

01:00:48
So are you still with us? I hope so. Because it was just a wonderful, wonderful talk. I really enjoyed meeting Atrayah and hear her story. And I can’t wait to connect with her again after we’ve been releasing this episode. So let us know how you liked it. Make sure you connect with her. You’ll find more information about her in the show notes.

James “Mac” McPartland is a keynote speaker, author of the Unopened Gifts ® series, and MindShift & Performance Coach.

In this episode of The Leader Assistant Podcast, James talks about what it really means to lead from where you are, self-leadership, radical responsibility, and communication.

LEADERSHIP QUOTE

The single biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place. 

– George Bernard Shaw

CONNECT WITH JAMES

• • James on LinkedIn
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  • Books

ABOUT JAMES

James “Mac” McPartland is a keynote speaker, author of the Unopened Gifts ® series, and MindShift & Performance Coach. For over 25 years, he has been helping leaders and their teams access breakthrough performance and results. James has worked with organizations such as Bank of America, IBM, Nespresso, Kellogg’s, Dow Chemical, Athletes First, and 24 Hour Fitness to transform their cultures into ones of exceptional collaboration and achievement.

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EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

00:00:00
Yeah, Jeremy, thank you very much. My name is James McPartland. Those who know me well or get grandfathered in like Jeremy will call me Mac. The quote that I’m bringing to the program today is one by George Bernard Shaw, and that is the single biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it happened.

00:00:25
The Leader Assistant Podcast exists to encourage and challenge assistants to become confident, game-changing leader assistants.

00:00:41
Howdy, friends. Welcome to episode 377 of the Leader Assistant Podcast. It’s your host, Jeremy Burrows, and I’m excited to be speaking with James McPartland today. James is a keynote speaker, author of the Unopened Gifts series, and mind shift and performance coach. It’s a lot of credentials after your name there, James, but welcome to the show.

00:01:08
Listen, thanks for having me, and I could listen to you speak about me all day, Jeremy.

00:01:11
Thank you for the interview.

00:01:13
Awesome. Well, what part of the world are you in, and what do you like to do when you’re not working?

00:01:19
Half of that question is a lot easier to answer. I’m in Southern California, Orange County to be specific, in a little area that’s known for the Real Housewives of Orange County.

00:01:29
We’re a cosmetically fit neighborhood.

00:01:32
Not working. I’m fortunate enough to say that given the lifestyle that exists out here, cycling, swimming, running, spending time. I’ve got two teenage boys who are heavily involved in sports. And doing my best, if you will, to be present for this great game of life because time goes very fast, my man.

00:01:52
This is true.

00:01:52
What sports do they play?

00:01:54
Yeah, I’ve got a senior in high school who’s a basketball player and certainly didn’t get the skills from me. Maybe it was mom. And the junior is an exceptional lacrosse player. Oh, nice. I think it’s just because he likes collisions. Yeah.

00:02:10
Love it. My, uh, my boys are 12 and 14, 12 year olds, really heavy into club soccer. And then the 14 year old is going to be, he’s in club baseball, but he’ll be in a freshman in high school baseball next, or I guess this fall or no next spring. Yeah. He’ll be in high school this fall, but baseball obviously would be next spring. So it’s all, all running together, but yeah.

00:02:33
Good for you, man. Kids are the ultimate clock of life. If it went as fast for me as it’s going to go for you or vice versa, where did it all go? Right, right. Exactly.

00:02:43
Well, super excited to have you on the show.

00:02:47
Your assistant reached out, Sarah, shout out to Sarah. Sarah, she reached out and tried to pitch you to be on the show. And I get, you know, probably a couple of these every other day or so.

00:03:00
And, you know, generally they don’t pay attention. It’s pretty templated. They don’t really pay attention to anything. what the show’s about.

00:03:10
Hers was definitely a better email pitch than I had seen. So it kind of caught my eye enough to reply and say, hey, you know, and when I do get an email from an assistant, I like to say, hey, why don’t you be on the show? Like, I’d like to interview you.

00:03:23
And she did a good job, though.

00:03:26
And maybe I’ll have her on the show eventually. But she did a good job of replying and saying, actually, you know, James really has some good topics that are relevant to our role as assistants. And I think you should reconsider. And I thought that was really good, crisp, concise sales pitch to flip that back around and get you on. So here we are. You’re on the show. No pressure, right? Sarah talked you up pretty good. So no pressure.

00:03:53
So what I want to do is first just get into your career a little bit. Tell us a little bit about what you do, you know, your career journey and how you ended up where you’re at now and a little bit about what you do.

00:04:07
Yeah. Thank you, Jeremy. And thank you for the shout out to Sarah, right? Assistance of all natures make a fundamental difference in life and in business. I don’t even think the word assistant is an appropriate one. Maybe it’s more executive leader, right? in terms of how it got me here on the show. By background, maybe we’ll stay on the professional credential side of things.

00:04:29
I had one of those 20-year overnight successes in business in the manufacturing space of exercise equipment. That phrase, 20-year overnight success, I only thought it’d be a couple of years and I would retire and I’d be playing baseball with you and your kids out in Kansas.

00:04:44
I guess the good news about that journey, which has led to the current

00:04:48
work I do, which is speaking a lot of executive coaching, culture and leadership development work within corporations.

00:04:56
Most of that comes from the learnings of a 20-year overnight success. But to be fair to that process, I can tell you more how not to do it, Jeremy, how to do it. And I guess I’m able to experience here with folks in a multiple of industries, inclusive and exclusive of manufacturing, maybe to point out where there might be some natural landmines that happen in growing a business. We grew it to a couple hundred million dollars.

00:05:22
There’ll be other problems that surface.

00:05:25
But I will tell you along the way, and really what piqued my interest when Sarah brought this to my attention was, wow, if it wasn’t for some of the people, and again, I think using the word assistant from my experience underplays the importance and significance of people in my career. Man, if I didn’t have those folks around me to catch me on my blind spots, to remind me of the things I said, and to help navigate specific relationships, And also from that experience currently now and working with other organizations is what I find is the best of assistants really understand the culture almost better than anybody else, almost better than the CEO.

00:06:03
And so anywhere a manufacturing business led to a keynote speaking and corporate consulting opportunity. And maybe you can tell by the books behind me, I continue to be a student, Jeremy. There’s a lot to learn in the game of life.

00:06:19
Love it. Love it. Thanks for sharing.

00:06:22
What is or when did you hire Sarah? How long have you been working with her as for as your assistant?

00:06:32
Yeah. Thank you, man.

00:06:35
It’s funny when these anniversaries come up, I think, well, where’d those years go? Like, we’re just talking about how fast kids grow. Sarah, maybe eight or nine years ago. Wow.

00:06:44
And we have, you know, several members of our team. Sarah came on quiet, introverted, quiet. Doesn’t mean anything other than that’s just style. And so we were going through this application process and we were meeting lots of people and there were certainly the vibrant types and not so much. But Sarah had this cool, calm confidence and the way she spoke and articulated, communicated actually, was extremely effective. Could get that across verbally, could get it off in written word.

00:07:15
Uh, and as somebody great that comes into your life was able to just clarify communication with me. Hey, this is what I think you’re saying. Is this what you’re saying? Because if you’re going to ask me to do something, I want to make sure I’m clear. So the,

00:07:30
eight years, maybe it’s nine. And if I missed it, Sarah, sorry, there’s got to be some cake to come, right? Celebrate a few of them.

00:07:37
But it goes fast, man. I guess soon I’ll be talking about a decade. That’s awesome. That’s great.

00:07:43
I love it. I’ve been supporting my CEO for nine, almost nine and a half years.

00:07:49
I supported my last executive for around six or so years. So yeah, I definitely value and respect those long-term strategic partnerships, so it’s great you guys have been building that.

00:08:03
Let’s talk a little bit about…

00:08:06
what it really means to lead from where you are. And, you know, obviously, my audience is assistants primarily. So we can tie that in as well. But how, let’s just have a conversation, honest conversation about what it means to lead from where you are, no matter your title, no matter your experience, role, etc.

00:08:29
Yeah, thank you. And, you know, in thinking about this conversation, some of the materials I was looking through relative to your journey, you know, there’s some catchphrases, right? Leadership is not a title. Leadership is influence.

00:08:42
My experience from any person in any walk of life, a title doesn’t is not required. We’ve all been around somebody who inspires us, engages us, enriches us, or you just feel better when you’re around them.

00:08:54
Or put another way is maybe we’ve all been in an environment or an airplane, somebody walks on and it doesn’t feel so good. You can feel that energy.

00:09:03
And so from my perspective, it’s how the person first leads themself, how I lead myself, how I talk to myself, the relationship I have with myself, how I take care of myself.

00:09:15
In terms of wherever I am in life as a leader, people hear what they see.

00:09:20
So however I show up is a reflection of the relationship I have with myself. And it’s the number one place that I practice leadership in that if I’m not well-versed in leading myself, I don’t know how I can lead others along the way. So I guess you’d say, what is leadership? It’s a reflection of how you see yourself or the identity you have for where you are now and maybe the role and the life you want to live into.

00:09:47
Great. So how would you say you have refined that over the years? Like, how would you build or develop or cultivate your yourself?

00:10:01
Yeah, full time. Well, I find that I spend the most time with myself. That’s the person I’m talking to the most, Jeremy.

00:10:09
Maybe like anything, there’s probably things that we get intellectually, but I think until it moves from the head to the heart, maybe the heart to the hands, it doesn’t tend to stick.

00:10:19
And maybe over the course of time, particularly when you spend a lot of time with folks, let’s call it in a coaching relationship, as that’s the way it’s phrased. What I understand is that in order to

00:10:32
have an impact or an influence on somebody, for example, if it were you and I, my responsibility to you would be to understand best I could who you are, what you want to get to, what are you afraid of, what do you want to be when you grow up, and try to meet you where you’re at. And most importantly is understand where you’re trying to get in the future. So if you and I stood on that moon of you and I in the future and look back, we’d have an identification of what we need to do first. So I guess the way I got there was

00:11:02
It was hard for me to ask people to be willing to look at things and do things they weren’t willing that it didn’t appear that I was going to do myself.

00:11:10
I think in the relationship that we’ve built in the prior work I had as a CEO and in the current work I do is, and let’s suppose it’s you and I, I would look at a relationship with you, Jeremy, and say, well, we’re going to practice. Occasionally I get to play teacher. Then you get to play teacher. Then we both get to play student.

00:11:29
Maybe we both try to play teacher, but there’s a learning engagement that goes back and forth, has nothing to do with book education. Most of it is, you know, life experience.

00:11:39
So I guess what I would tell you that sticks would be most like any great quotes. Somewhere along the line, I heard or evolved the phrase, people hear what they see. And it made me wonder, particularly when I had children,

00:11:52
What do people see in me? Are my words consistent with my behaviors and the things I’m suggesting to people? Would they know that those were priorities for me if I never used words to tell them, if they just followed me around?

00:12:06
That’s great. Love it.

00:12:09
I noticed that just to shift gears a little bit, or it’s related to what you’re talking about, but I noticed on your website, which I’ll share in the show notes at leaderassistant.com/377 for those listening.

00:12:24
The you work with athletes and I would love to kind of, you know, we just mentioned our boys, our kids are athletic and all that, too. But I’d love to hear kind of in your work with athletes, how much of that.

00:12:43
cross um not really cross industry but you know what i mean like from professional circle and executive assistant roles to working with athletes how much of that is relevant and you know transferable basically does that make sense yeah yeah thank you for the question my friend

00:13:07
What’s been what’s really interesting about working with a let’s use professional athletes, whether it’s the NFL or the NBA, like any of us, we’re all you know, it’s all human beings.

00:13:18
Right. And what’s interesting about it can happen in the corporate world with a high level executive position.

00:13:26
male or female and a senior ceo or ceo role where you know there’s this um pedestal aspect that can go along with it just by default well professional sports you know let’s just say that’s amplified then if you add social media to it right almost people seem untouchable those relationships are built by referral because i imagine there’s a lot of people trying to you know take money from others, perhaps, or take advantage. What I find with athletes, one, is they’re male and or female the same.

00:14:00
Ultimate students, willing to train, willing to do what it works, willing to practice, really try anything. I’ll see if it works. If it does, I’ll stick it. If not, I’ll discard it. That’s a brilliant part about working with athletes. Two is, my experience has been, for those that really want to understand the benefit of coaching, it’s to understand how to take that platform

00:14:20
and use it as a force for good somewhere in life. I’ve built this community. I’ve built this level of awareness. I’ve built this recognition.

00:14:28
I don’t know what to do with it.

00:14:30
And if I come off the field or come off the court, the question people always get, hey, what are you doing now? What are you doing with your life? Or you should be retired. And there’s these expectations put on people, probably like you build in your relationships. What the individual, I believe, call it athlete, call it corporate executive, is looking for a place they can be themselves.

00:14:50
open their kimonos and say, I’m kind of scared. I don’t know exactly what to do here. Is it safe?

00:14:57
And not to tell the person, no matter where they are at a high level, of how great they are. They already know that.

00:15:04
It’s about how to take that platform and that greatness to use it to the benefit of other people, right? So if you’re going to leave your paw print or your footprint or your cleat print, right, or your business card someplace, how is the world a bit of a better place by virtue of the gift you’ve been given through this platform? So maybe the simple version, what’s great is if we do, hey, let’s try these exercises, go through this workshop, let’s read this segment, let’s watch this video clip, because what you might appreciate in the

00:15:33
let’s call it in the coaching model, you spend maybe one hour with a person, an athlete. Let’s say you get one hour with that person a week. Well, there’s 168 hours in a week. So you get one hour and you’re trying to override 167 other hours of conditioning.

00:15:49
to make a behavior change going forward. So we try to keep tasks between conversations so that the momentum stays. And the great thing about athletes is give me the assignment, tell me what to do.

00:16:01
I don’t make them sweat in there as much. Well, maybe the questions make them sweat, like you’re making me sweat, Jeremy. Yeah.

00:16:07
Yeah. I mean, that sounds like, you know, assistance even to relate it to them from what I’ve heard in my years coaching assistants and being an assistant is like, oh, you know, what are you going to do next? Right. Like, what do you it’s like, well, what if I like being an assistant? What if what if what if I want to be an assistant for my career, you know, and then just.

00:16:32
Going back to your point about, you know, making a footprint, leaving a business card in the world, whatever.

00:16:39
Talk a little bit about navigating the tension between, you know, supporting others, helping others, but then also advocating for yourself.

00:16:54
Especially as assistants, like we’re so focused on. All right, I got to make sure James is where he needs to be. I got to make sure he’s got what he needs. You know, it’s Saturday afternoon. And even though Sarah may not be working, she’s probably thought about. Oh, is James traveling this weekend? Does he have what he needs? You know, how do we how do we balance that and navigate that tension between, hey, you know what? I’m supporting this executive. I’m supporting this team. I really care about them and I’m helping them achieve their goals. But I also have my own goals and have to care about myself and advocate for myself.

00:17:32
Great point, because maybe most of us learn nobody’s coming by to be in charge of us, even if they’re our executive assistant. Right. We’re essentially in charge of ourselves. Maybe we got a support squad around us, but we’re the people that say if we have the benefit of it, we still have to do the thing, whatever the thing is. Right.

00:17:51
If it’s plausible, given your community and for those that maybe this question really applies to is, with the relationship that the assistant has with the senior executive, he or she, are their values clear? Are their priorities clear? And let me broaden it out. And this is maybe not applicable to everybody, but it’s worth considering. Over the years, most of us have heard the phrase, hey, it’s not personal, it’s business. Jeremy, I think it’s all personal.

00:18:23
If you’re a person, how could it not be?

00:18:26
And when we get emotional and riled up and upset, it’s not like, okay, I’m just going to stop doing that. Why? Because we’re passionate. We put our heart and soul into it. And so wherever we have a specific dynamic or a relationship that’s working or not working, we co-create it.

00:18:42
The good news about that is we can do something about it if it’s not to our benefit.

00:18:47
What I often suggest to folks that are in the roles, the valuable roles that you’re describing, can they get a perspective from their executive? What’s most important to them? What’s their own value structure?

00:18:59
What fuels them? What gives them energy? Maybe if it’s a business relationship besides quarterly earnings and hitting KPIs and making sure there’s cash in the bank, that’s very important.

00:19:10
But does the person have a child that they want to get to the game for? Like you’ve got a baseball game this afternoon. Is there something they know that maybe they’ve been told or told themselves? You’ve got to get on the treadmill three days a week.

00:19:23
If those components are built into the relationship, the individual themselves has then a chance to practice the same priorities. Hey, I’m glad you said that because what’s important to me to do blank, I need to get my exercise time with my child because that gives me the energy to

00:19:38
to make sure I’m doing the functions we require.

00:19:41
Because if we can have those honest conversations, I can’t give my best unless I’m at my best. And if I’m just over indexing on the business side of things, I’m actually going to burn out. I’m going to become sort of resentful and respectful to everybody.

00:20:00
We train people on how to deal with us.

00:20:03
And so in building a relationship, or rebuilding a relationship. First, I have to retrain myself on how I want to show up.

00:20:10
How do I want to show up? How do I want to communicate? How do I want people to see me? What are the practices? And who can help hold me to do those? Because it’s very hard to make modifications.

00:20:21
And perhaps with that, whomever you’re reporting into is, I’m working on these things to better myself because if I can do this, I’m going to be better for you. Because for that person that they’re working with,

00:20:35
Look, everyone’s radio station is tuned to WIFM. What’s in it for me, right?

00:20:39
So if the work I’m doing to develop me is to – if I said to you, Jeremy, you and I are going to build a relationship. I’m going to work on getting super fit, and you’re going to benefit. You probably said, dude, knock yourself out. I’ll drive you to the gym, right? Here’s your salad, right? So how does –

00:20:55
Please.

00:20:56
No, I just say that reminds me a long, long time ago, when I was first getting into my assistant career, I talked to another assistant.

00:21:02
And they mentioned specifically, you know, my executive, we work a lot, we work hard, we’re, you know, it’s not a clock in clock out nine to five situation. But he’s like, my executive knows that I’m much more

00:21:21
productive, much more friendly, um, and pleasant to be around if I get my 3 PM in the afternoon workout.

00:21:35
And, and so he was, he was just like, it’s just, it’s, we’ve, we’ve communicated that it’s clear, like, Hey, I’m going to be offline from three to four, four 30. Um, but that’s what I need to keep my high energy level, to keep me healthy, and allow me to work at a high capacity for a long period of time.

00:21:58
You know, and to that really important point, what I think is also very helpful is and maybe it’s a practice.

00:22:06
Sometimes we’ll think in our head, well, I can’t say that to the person and I can’t do that. And we’ll have the conversation with ourself without having it with the other person. And so my encouragement to people is give the other person permission to say no. They might, but don’t say no for them.

00:22:22
It’s all the framing. Right.

00:22:24
I want to approach our relationship this way. And if I do, I think I’m going to be even more beneficial to us. The person is going to hear that.

00:22:31
It’s not I want to go work out because I’m trying to get away from you.

00:22:35
That’s probably how you not want to phrase it. Right.

00:22:37
Right. Totally.

00:22:38
Awesome. What about the term radical responsibility? That was something that your amazing assistant, Sarah, mentioned that you could talk on. So talk to us a little bit about what that means. Radical responsibility.

00:22:52
Yeah. Thank you, my friend. If I were to simplify, if I just use the coaching part of our business, and if I think over, gosh, hundreds of examples,

00:23:05
What do I think people want? Let’s call it on the other side of the table or the other side of the screen. What I think people are looking for is a higher sense of control in their life.

00:23:16
And when things fall out of control, that’s when most of our anxiety ramps up. And radical responsibility is an attempt in the communication process by which we say to someone, practice this, and it’s all practice.

00:23:31
Look at where your life is. We create a scoreboard for them, right? Physically, mentally, emotionally, spiritually, all the buckets.

00:23:38
And most people look at that scoreboard and they kind of cringe a little bit. This is not where I thought I’d be at this phrase or stage of my life.

00:23:44
And we say, okay, great. Take 100% responsibility for that.

00:23:48
Well, often the feedback is, yeah, but my boss is this way and this is going on and you don’t understand this. And that’s probably all true. However, even if you take 100% of your 50%,

00:24:00
There’s something you can do about it.

00:24:02
And that’s taking that feeling of control back.

00:24:05
So it could go to the extreme when there’s pushback on that. It could be, hey, we just had a massive tornado roll through our town and it wiped out four or five homes and there’s damage to the infrastructure and our Internet’s out. Now, how am I responsible for that? Well, there’s a distinction between being responsible for something and responsible to it.

00:24:30
So if I’m responsible to it and I’m a member of the community or a member of the company, I could deliver water.

00:24:37
I could go help clean up debris. If it’s within an organization whereby which, hey, I don’t control the sales department or manufacturing missed their schedule,

00:24:47
Maybe I’m not a salesperson or a manufacturing person, but there’s probably somebody I know along the way, maybe someone in accounting who’s been burning the midnight oil, who would benefit from the Starbucks being delivered to their desk. Say, look, I appreciate the extra effort you’re putting in. So it’s taking responsibility for the company or the community. And action cures anxiety. It’s when we get stuck in our head, which is getting behind enemy territory, that the demons tend to, at least in my case, rule the day.

00:25:15
Yeah.

00:25:17
Love that. That’s, as a parent that is very, a parent of a 12-year-old and a 14-year-old, the radical responsibility is tough to get the kiddos to do. But yeah, it’s a good reminder.

00:25:35
Awesome. Well, I really appreciate it, James. We could talk a lot more.

00:25:40
You know, as I think I mentioned earlier, my son’s baseball practice is here in a little bit and it got moved up early. So appreciate you being flexible with your time and chatting. But I’ll definitely share all of your social links and all that fun stuff.

00:25:57
at leaderassistant.com/377. But if you could tell the assistants listening, you know, one thing to remember and then one place to reach out and say hi and find out what you’re about, what would you what would you tell them?

00:26:12
Yeah, look, thank you for the opportunity. And anybody tuning in, whether they’re barreling down the road. or wherever they may be at the moment, what I think makes a difference is there’s often a misunderstanding with the role or the label that goes along with it. And maybe that’s viewed as undervalued or underappreciated. And that might be the case by others.

00:26:33
And yet people are going to think what they’re going to think.

00:26:36
What I work closely with individuals is to think about identity. Identity is what I identify with and how I see myself.

00:26:45
And if, in fact, there’s that sense of maybe I’m not appreciated or, man, this is harder than I thought it was going to be, what is helpful to all people is a compelling future. What am I trying to build? What am I trying to live into? Who am I trying to become? Then there’s something I can learn and there’s something I can take greater responsibility for in terms of equipping myself to play the game going forward.

00:27:10
As well as consider how have I trained myself to see myself? Are people a reflection of how I’m seeing myself?

00:27:18
And there’s a chance for me to retrain myself if I choose to and others around me. Or put another way is maybe individuals have greater agency over this experience than maybe they’ve otherwise had the chance to see until they had a chance to tune into shows like yours. So… and in terms of coming by to shake and howdy probably the easiest thing to do if it’s not too much of a tongue twister and hopefully it’s in the show notes jamesmcpartland.com that takes to the website the social channels information on the book and come meet sarah who’s obviously the celebrity on today’s program i’ve been honored to you know have anybody come in take advantage of the resources there’s lots of free stuff

00:27:58
Awesome, James. Appreciate it. And again, another shout out to Sarah for setting this up and being such a great strategic partner to you. We really appreciate you taking time and wish you the best of luck.

00:28:14
You’re doing great work, man. Thanks for including us. I appreciate it. Take care.

00:28:27
Please review on Apple Podcasts.

In this candid interview, Diana Brandl welcomes Brian Daniel, founder of The Celebrity Personal Assistant Network, to pull back the curtain on the world of private service for celebrities, high-net-worth families, and billionaires.

Brian, a former Personal Assistant and Chief of Staff for royal families and A-list stars, shares his firsthand expertise on the ups and downs of the industry. He reveals the true salary realities (including the controversial Anna Wintour assistant salary) and the immense patience required to find the right match.

Learn why professionalism, “thick skin,” and maintaining discretion are non-negotiable, and discover why moving away from major cities like L.A. might open the door to world-class, once-in-a-lifetime career opportunities.

CONNECT WITH BRIAN

• Brian on LinkedIn
• The Celebrity PA Network

ABOUT BRIAN

Brian Daniel is the founder of The Celebrity Personal Assistant Network, a headhunting firm for celebrities, high-net-worth families, and billionaires. As a former personal assistant, chief of staff, and confidant to some of the world’s wealthiest families, Brian knows firsthand what it takes to make it in the private service industry.

Since its inception, FindCelebrityJobs.com has been featured in dozens of high-profile media outlets worldwide and has been visited tens of millions of times. In addition to household staffing, CPAN also offers resources for those in private service, including but not limited to career coaching and B2B consulting for small business owners in the luxury markets.

ABOUT EXECUTIVE OFFICE INSIGHTS with DIANA BRANDL

Executive Office Insights is a podcast for executive support professionals hosted by Diana Brandl – an accomplished trainer, consultant, coach, and former C-suite senior executive assistant with nearly two decades of experience at renowned international companies, this podcast dives deep into the evolving world of executive excellence.

Diana explores the critical themes shaping the modern workplace, including leadership dynamics, digital transformation, AI, and the future of work. Featuring insightful conversations with a diverse range of German and English-speaking experts, each episode equips listeners with actionable insights and strategies to thrive in the ever-changing executive office landscape.

–––

THE LEADER ASSISTANT ACADEMY

Enroll in the on-demand, AI-powered professional development resource for Leader Assistants who want to level up. Learn more -> The Leader Assistant Academy.

THE LEADER ASSISTANT BOOK

Download the first 3 chapters of The Leader Assistant: Four Pillars of Game-Changing Assistant for FREE here or buy it on Amazon and listen to the audiobook on Audible. Also, check out the companion study guide, The Leader Assistant Workbook, to dig deeper.

JOIN THE FREE COMMUNITY

Join the Leader Assistant Global Community for bonus content, job opportunities, and to network with other assistants who are committed to becoming leaders!

THE LEADER ASSISTANT PREMIUM MEMBERSHIP

To learn more about how you can join growth-minded Leader Assistants, check out our Leader Assistant Premium Membership for ongoing training, coaching, and community.

LEADER ASSISTANT LIVE EVENTS

Check out our constantly updated schedule of events for admins and assistants at LeaderAssistantLive.com.

SUBSCRIBE

Subscribe to The Leader Assistant Podcast so you don’t miss new episodes!

You can find the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts, Pandora, and Stitcher.

Join my email list here if you want to get an email when a new episode goes live.

LEAVE A REVIEW

If you’re enjoying the podcast, please take 2 minutes to rate and review the show on Apple Podcasts here. Each review helps me stay motivated to keep the show going!

–––

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

00:00:00 JEREMY
Hey friends, thanks for tuning in to the Leader Assistant Podcast. I’m excited to share another spotlight episode of my friend Diana Brandl’s show, Executive Office Insights. Be sure to check out the show notes for more information about her show and today’s featured guest. But in the meantime, enjoy this conversation and keep leading well.

00:00:28 SPEAKER_00
The Leader Assistant podcast exists to encourage and challenge assistants to become confident, game-changing leader assistants.

00:00:41 JEREMY
Check out the show notes for this episode at leaderassistant.com/376.

00:00:47 DIANA
I always love to introduce experts around the table. And today I’m introducing Brian Daniel, the founder of the Celebrity Personal Assistant Network.

00:00:56 DIANA
We had so much to exchange, for example, like how it is leading a headhunting firm for celebrities, high net worth families and billionaires.

00:01:05 DIANA
As a former personal assistant chief of staff and confident to some of the world’s wealthiest families, Brian knows for sure firsthand what it takes to make it in the private service industry. We also talk very openly about the ups and the downs and what it takes to find the right match. And sometimes it is wise to really ask for your own motivation in order to get into the private service industry. There’s so much more we’re going to bring to you in this episode. So jump right in.

00:01:38 DIANA
Hey, everybody, it’s Diana from the Future Assistant podcast, and it’s always a joy talking to my guests and especially bringing some new faces to my European community. And today for sure is a very interesting talk waiting for us. I’ve been waiting for this talk for quite a while and we’ve been in touch a few times. I’ve been following him on social media because what a career Brian has. It’s absolutely amazing. So I can’t wait to introduce Brian Daniel to all of you and to hear a little bit from his life. And he’s actually joining us from the U.S. And I need to say good morning because it’s morning hours in the U.S. And it’s actually Father’s Day. So welcome, Brian. And what time is it and where actually are you at the moment?

00:02:22 BRIAN
So it’s just a few minutes after 10. And right now I’m in my secret lair in the Midwest. I don’t spend too much time in L.A. now. They’re going through some growing pains. So, you know, I have a daughter and I spend a lot of time in the Midwest.

00:02:40 DIANA
Perfect. So which is the next big city close to you, Midwest?

00:02:45 BRIAN
So I’m pretty close. I’m kind of halfway in between Chicago and Detroit. I do a lot of business in both those cities. So it was a pretty good spot to be in.

00:02:57 DIANA
Wonderful. So how are you at the moment? You say not too much time in L.A. at the moment. Actually, I have a question for you later on about L.A.,

00:03:06 DIANA
But how’s life? I mean, jumping into the summertime, is there something where you say it’s getting a little bit more relaxed with the business in your agency? Or would you say it’s never relaxed? It’s always a lot to do.

00:03:20 BRIAN
You got it. It’s there’s always a lot to do. You know, certain industries follow certain patterns, especially with hiring. But. in private service you know everything’s always at level 10 because uh the lives of the super wealthy they’re always quite busy as you know and there’s always going to be personal and professional emergencies so my phone rings at all times of the year uh there’s a famous story about on new year’s eve i had a a famous pop star contact me because

00:04:01 BRIAN
it was almost before midnight and she really needed somebody. And I got her someone on New Year’s Eve. So that happens.

00:04:12 DIANA
Even on New Year’s Eve, 24-7. Wow.

00:04:17 DIANA
Speaking of ringing phones, but also traveling, you’re currently in the Midwest. And when I look back at your career, you’ve been traveling a lot with your clients. So how about right now? I mean, do you hop on a plane every week or how is it at the moment?

00:04:33 BRIAN
That’s a great question. So it depends on the circumstances. I would say once a month I’m on a plane to go meet a client. I’ll often go on location because the clients that contact me are often in dire straits.

00:04:57 BRIAN
There was one situation where someone had burned through 17 assistants in two years. Whoa. And so what I’ll do is when the clients come to me, they’re often exhausted in so many ways because they do try to take out job ads themselves. So there’s something that happens where they hit a brick wall and then they come to realize we need professional help. We need to find out why all the cogs aren’t working correctly. So I’ll often go out into the field and visit the estate and see what’s going on, talk to some of the players. And most of the time, the principals are not aware that

00:05:45 BRIAN
there’s chaos behind the scenes. They often think they have a very well-oiled machine, but that’s often not the case.

00:05:57 BRIAN
A Ferrari has a lot of moving parts and they’re very temperamental, aren’t they? So when you have these big mega estates, many of them over 20,000 square feet, and you have a lot of employees and a lot of departments,

00:06:16 BRIAN
There can be a lot of backbiting, backstabbing, inefficiencies happening in the operation. And sometimes they need a third party to go in there and take a good look at what’s going on.

00:06:33 DIANA
Yeah, absolutely. And it’s good to have someone like you being involved because you are in the middle between the assistant you hired for your client and of course being also the contact person for your client. So I can imagine that the job never ends, right?

00:06:50 BRIAN
There’s always something to do.

00:06:53 DIANA
So we would love to hear a little bit more about your professional background, Brian. So why don’t you let us know a little bit out of your bio?

00:07:01 BRIAN
Sure. So as is so often the case, I fell into the industry as so many people do.

00:07:11 BRIAN
You know, when you ask people how they got started, it’ll either say a friend of a friend or I was the neighbor’s niece or something like that. And it happened quite by accident.

00:07:22 BRIAN
So the first personal assistant job I had, I worked for an extended member of the Johnson & Johnson family. And that was, you know, the floodgates opened after that.

00:07:37 BRIAN
I was hooked, you know, working in the private estates and working behind the scenes and booking private jets for people. It became pretty exciting. And so I had a long career as a personal assistant and estate manager and a chief of staff working for high net worth families.

00:08:01 BRIAN
I worked for a very famous voice coach for several years who does all the Hollywood stars. And I worked for the Royal Saudi family for two years.

00:08:12 BRIAN
And then I came to a crossroads where, uh,

00:08:17 BRIAN
I had to decide, you know, if I was going to take a step back or not, because, you know, the really long hours and constantly on the road kind of gets to you after a while. The blessing is the curse. You know, the things that are very good about the job, it can become a bit of a chore. So in 2007, I decided to become a recruiter.

00:08:45 BRIAN
It’s a very strange story because after I finished with the Royal Saudis, I was considering doing something else, and I went and visited a lot of the big quote-unquote famous agencies in LA and New York, and I was absolutely appalled.

00:09:05 BRIAN
at the treatment, I received that arrogance and the entire experience for me kind of opened my eyes. And I thought to myself, there’s an opportunity here to do it a little better. I came to learn that

00:09:27 BRIAN
not just in private service, but most recruiters in any industry don’t come from the field.

00:09:38 BRIAN
So this is especially true in domestic staffing. Very few people in the industry were actually in private service. And so I thought, well, because I come from that world and I’ve worked with so many families, I can make very informed decisions.

00:09:57 BRIAN
about placing staff with high net worth families. And that really is how the idea was born.

00:10:04 DIANA
Fabulous. So it was never a master plan that you said, one day I’m going to be my own CEO. I’m running my own business.

00:10:14 BRIAN
Never. It happened just like I got into the business quite by accident. I became a recruiter quite by accident.

00:10:23 BRIAN
You know, things were a little slow to start, frankly, because, you know, not only was I new.

00:10:29 BRIAN
in that genre but um you know right around 07 08 is when the financial crisis was happening with the housing market globally and so there were a couple days i said to myself was this a good idea but eventually things worked out and you know the word got out and

00:10:52 BRIAN
I started doing media appearances and things like that. And so I don’t do any advertising at all. All my clients come to me either through word of mouth or they were doing research online and they found me.

00:11:07 BRIAN
So, yeah.

00:11:08 DIANA
Fabulous. What does it do to you when you look back? I mean, telling me in that moment about your career, is that still like a pinch me moment where you say, wow, incredible when I look what I’ve been doing and I’ve been running my business for such a long time. So what does it do to you when you talk about it?

00:11:26 BRIAN
Well, there are a lot of really great moments. Something very interesting happened about two years ago. I can’t believe it’s been two years, but I got a call out of the blue.

00:11:38 BRIAN
from someone associated with the real life crazy rich Asians family. And I kind of became, I don’t want to say friends with the gentleman, but he was calling me frequently. There would be sometimes a whole week would go by and I talked to him every single day. So for months and months and months, we were talking and we were trying.

00:12:08 BRIAN
to find him the perfect traveling assistant. And because he was in a very, very unique set of circumstances and because COVID was happening, it was very difficult to find the, a perfect fit. And,

00:12:27 BRIAN
Long story short, there were several initiatives that he was involved in. He had a lot of projects he wanted to do that I was perfectly suited for. So I just threw this out there. I had a crazy idea. I said, you know what?

00:12:43 BRIAN
Maybe I should come on the road with you for a short time and really learn about the inner workings of your operation. And then I’ll be better informed

00:12:53 BRIAN
about what it is you want, because so many of the clients think they know what they want and what they need, but they don’t.

00:13:01 DIANA
Right.

00:13:02 BRIAN
So I ended up going on the road with him and one month turned into six months. And we were in a new country every two weeks. It was a very jet set sort of thing with lifestyle management. And it reminded me of being with the Royal Saudis. And, um,

00:13:23 BRIAN
But interestingly enough, because I had been out of the game for a little while, it made me realize how important brushing up on your skills, you know,

00:13:38 BRIAN
professional development initiatives, because there were a few times where I stumbled, especially with technology. And it was a very interesting situation because I was training three other new people to the industry. That was one of the things I was tasked with. And, you know, these young folks coming in here and

00:14:02 BRIAN
growing up with iPhones in their hand. They’re very good with technology. So we had things that we taught each other. And in any case, that was a pretty fun adventure to kind of get back into the game again and

00:14:21 BRIAN
Be out there in the mix.

00:14:22 DIANA
Exactly. But how wonderfully ready to prepare yourself, you know, to find the right match for this customer. I think that’s the perfect approach.

00:14:30 DIANA
So you’ve been naming it already. You worked as an EA chief of staff to celebrities, billionaires and royal families. So for sure, there’s not only booking jets and villas and private security. There’s much more involved. So how would you describe some of your jobs you’ve been doing in the past?

00:14:50 BRIAN
You know, it’s very interesting because I came from the field and I’ve worked in a lot of different capacities, had different titles, worked with many different employers. The thing that kind of strikes me the most is how varied the industry really is.

00:15:14 BRIAN
This is quite a hot topic with job titles, duties, and responsibilities.

00:15:23 BRIAN
It’s very hotly contested in our industry. You can’t get five people to agree what a PA, EA, or chief of staff is. What does a butler do? What is a major dormo? I mean, people really get hot under the collar when these topics come up. You can’t get the private service professionals to agree. You certainly can’t get the employer’s degree and you can’t get the recruiters to agree either. So it’s a very unique industry we’re in, in that sense, because if you look at engineering or project management or even dentistry you know there are a lot of commonalities in those in those fields terminology procedures there’s a lot of uniformity in other industries there isn’t in ours so the thing that i’ve come to learn is that when the employers contact me

00:16:26 BRIAN
And they start using certain titles. It is really up to me to dig deep.

00:16:33 BRIAN
In fact, just two days ago, I talked to a high net worth client who had contacted me and he thought he needed a house manager.

00:16:44 BRIAN
Well, the more I probed, the more I learned about what he really needed. And I said, you actually need a domestic couple.

00:16:55 BRIAN
So many of the people that come to me, it’s their first time. You know, think about buying a home for the first time or going to college for the first time.

00:17:10 BRIAN
There are so many mistakes that you make. There’s so much naivete. And I say that with all due respect.

00:17:19 BRIAN
So it’s very difficult when you’re talking to the clients to get them to confess, if you will, about what it is they want and need because they’re holding their cards so close to their chest. But the other thing is, too, is they don’t have a way to express or articulate what it is they need because they just don’t have the vocabulary for it because it’s all new to them.

00:17:47 BRIAN
We often have this conversation behind the scenes with candidates and other recruiters about old money and new money. So in Europe, they’re doing, frankly, a much better job than we are in the United States with domestic staffing because it’s been around for a lot longer, you know, hundreds of years.

00:18:08 BRIAN
They’ve had all of these different positions in the estates. But for a lot of families in the United States, it’s all new money. So people come into money or they’ve inherited something. And then suddenly they have hundreds of millions of dollars and they’re buying these big estates or they’re being built custom. And then they’re walking into the HVAC room and there’s all these buttons and they don’t even know what to do. They don’t know how the systems work.

00:18:38 BRIAN
And then they start hiring staff on their own and it becomes a hot mess really quickly. And then they come, they go on the internet and they start doing some research and they say, oh, wow, there are professional outfits out there. There are domestic staffing recruiters that specialize in this space. And so most of the people that come to me,

00:19:03 BRIAN
um are in dire straits or they wouldn’t be coming to me in the first place many of them have been to other agencies and got burned and so it takes a great deal of patience

00:19:17 BRIAN
to be able to unwind the mess that they’re in it um the analogy that i could use is let’s say there was a big construction project happening and there’s a lot of moving parts and you had to fire the contractor and then another company has to come in

00:19:37 BRIAN
and clean up the mess. And they say, oh, look, this foundation was poured wrong and you’re getting cracks in this thing over here. And this was not, you know, I don’t have the vocabulary because I’m not an engineer or a contractor, but you get the idea.

00:19:52 DIANA
Absolutely.

00:19:53 BRIAN
Yeah, go ahead, please.

00:19:54 DIANA
I was going to say, because you just mentioned patience, I can only imagine that your clientele, I mean, do they have patience? Do they have time? It’s always like fast pace. I mean, what does patience mean? I mean, it is a journey, right? It’s not a fast match. It’s a journey to really a marathon sometimes to really find the right people, to find the right staff and the process you described. I can only imagine how much time it takes and how much kind of interviewing it takes from your perspective with your clients to really know, okay, who do you need? And now I start, you know, my process. So patience is tough because as we all say, time is money and usually there’s not enough time out there, right? So is there an understanding for patience when you talk to your clients? Yeah.

00:20:41 BRIAN
Well, when we are in this business, we in hospitality and especially in private service, we’re using the term thick skin. You have to have very thick skin and a lot of resilience. As recruiters, we’re always behind the eight ball because unfortunately, the clients, most of the time, they’re in a very big hurry. And the problem is that

00:21:10 BRIAN
You know, we live in this instant gratification world, which is especially true. It becomes heightened to the nth degree when you’re an ultra high net worth individual. They’re used to snapping their fingers and get everything they want in short order. But the problem is when you’re trying to find the perfect match made in heaven, it is not a process that can be rushed.

00:21:36 BRIAN
I got a call about a month ago.

00:21:40 BRIAN
from an ultra high net worth individual in the central states who was in, they were desperate.

00:21:48 BRIAN
You know, they wanted to hire someone yesterday. It was a great sense of urgency. That is almost always true. But with this one, it was exceptional. I mean, the assistant that I was talking to on behalf of the client was almost frantic. when you know they needed to hire someone right away because there was a big project they were involved in and the demands you know can come quickly and uh with a certain kind of fervor and we have to talk the clients off the ledge that’s really the best way i can describe it because

00:22:33 BRIAN
They’re already in a certain pattern that they’ve been following. And what I try to convey to them is that we want to break the cycle.

00:22:43 BRIAN
So if they have a great sense of urgency and they’re in a certain state of desperation, they’re going to make the wrong decision. And what we don’t want to happen as recruiters is we don’t want to get a call 45 days into the placement saying that there’s problems.

00:23:03 BRIAN
So those calls can either come from the candidates and or the clients.

00:23:08 BRIAN
So that’s why it’s so important to be thorough. And one of the things, the great difficulties I face is getting the clients to be candid with me. I often lose…

00:23:27 BRIAN
clients in the very front end of the process. And I’m fine with that because I have to press them.

00:23:35 BRIAN
Most recruiters are just chasing commissions. I’m not about the money. I’ve never been about the money.

00:23:44 BRIAN
So when I see that the process is not going the way that it should, sometimes I have to have a tough talk with the client. and say this is not the right fit because there’s a certain way that we do things around here and they don’t want to play ball um there there has to be a mutual respect and

00:24:13 BRIAN
For the people, for the candidates especially, the very high-level candidates that come to me, they’ve come to expect a certain level of due diligence, if you will, a certain vetting of the clients. Because the clients expect that we vet the candidates, of course, but I also do it the other way too, which is very…

00:24:36 BRIAN
untraditional, let’s say, in our industry. Most recruiters are beholden to the people who are paying their bills, and I understand why they have to be like that. But I have a certain level of an expectation of the client. I have a whole set of rules that I send them in the beginning about how we work, which is the short list is that

00:25:06 BRIAN
Everyone’s got to be paid legally on the books. No independent contractors and cash jobs, which is quite famous in our industry. Very important point you’re addressing.

00:25:16 SPEAKER_04
Yeah. Yeah.

00:25:19 BRIAN
We have to have a salary range and job description on the table before we start, because what often happens is you’ll go through a weeks long or even months long interview process. And then here come the lowball offers.

00:25:39 BRIAN
And I have to know in my heart that the clients are genuine.

00:25:47 BRIAN
when they say, this is the final job description that we’ve discussed. I’m signing off on this. This is the salary range. I’m willing to pay at the minimum this and at the maximum this. And these are going to be the benefits. Because, you know, when you read these bad reviews on Google and the other

00:26:15 BRIAN
I forget the names of some of these review sites, but I look at what’s happening with the competition, and you’ll often see these things that were written by candidates that say things like, I was thrown under the bus by my agent.

00:26:32 BRIAN
uh i showed up to work it was nothing like what was said in the job description um i got my first paycheck it was 25 less than it was supposed to be and then the client said no this is your salary i had discussed it with your agent and

00:26:49 BRIAN
And it becomes a hot mess pretty fast. So I avoid all those problems right in the very beginning. And I make, you know, the clients have to be held accountable.

00:27:01 BRIAN
And what often happens is that, you know, I get ghosted because I’ll get emails from people. Oh, we’re looking for this, that and the other thing. And I say, well, review this page of my website first, because these are

00:27:13 BRIAN
how we this is how we play ball at the celebrity personal assistant network and then i often won’t hear back from them because when they when they see that they’re going to be held accountable and people have to be paid on the books and taxes have to be paid by the employer and the candidate and i insist that the client the candidates have health insurance and we have to you know document their hours and they have to be paid overtime by law and they have to have their breaks they don’t want all the rules that’s why some of these third-party sites have become so popular with clients taking out job ads on their own and they just put confidential employer i’ve come to learn by the way after doing this for 16 years when i interview a

00:28:06 BRIAN
candidates. And I said, well, how’d you get this job? How’d you get that job?

00:28:10 BRIAN
And then they tell me what a mess it was to say, yeah, I was on one of those job boards. It was a confidential employer ad. And, you know, when those employers go through those third party sites and they cut out the middleman, the recruiters, you’re giving up a lot.

00:28:29 BRIAN
You’re walking into a minefield when you don’t have a business entity protecting your interests because when you’re negotiating with billionaires on your own and you don’t have a seasoned professional on your side saying what about this what about this what about this you don’t have an employment contract you’re kidding you did all this on a handshake you’re you’re you’re you’re

00:28:56 DIANA
almost guaranteed to be walking into a mess in situations like that absolutely but you know what this speaks for the way you you operate and this is a huge amount of professional professionalism in there so um i can only salute you for also staying true to your values here you know and not uh jumping on every opportunity to make money but you know first of all

00:29:20 DIANA
seeing the priority and bringing two parties together and yeah, just sticking to values and your true beliefs. So I really salute this because this is not everything what we see out there, right?

00:29:39 BRIAN
Well, thank you for that. Yes. You know, I’m raising the bar. I’ve been trying to change the game. There’s a long road ahead of me.

00:29:50 BRIAN
But I’m trying to institute some standards and best practices. There’s a lot of lawlessness going on out there in private service and domestic staffing.

00:30:05 BRIAN
You know, there are plenty of blogs out there. And if you go to any of these conferences and things every year that some of these associations have, I mean, these are the hot topics that people are discussing either on stage or behind the scenes. So I’m one of the first, I suppose, to plant a flag and say, you know, there’s a better way to do this. And I hope more people will follow me.

00:30:34 DIANA
And I mean, our audience that is listening now to us for sure will appreciate your open words here, because I’m sure there’s always someone who’s listening now. And of course, thinking of is that in your career path for me? And should I should I join, you know, becoming a personal assistant to a billionaire, to a celebrity? So, when you look back at your career, allow me to ask this once again, because of course, when I go to your website, I see famous people on that website. There’s Alec Baldwin, there’s Jay Leno, you’ve been mentioning the Royal Saudi family. So, for sure, pinch me moment, but…

00:31:15 DIANA
And we all know that at the end, these were your executives, these were your bosses, these were the people you’ve been working with. And I remember when I talked to the assistant of Bill Gates or the former chief of staff to Oprah, they all say the same. Like the moment you feel like, oh, that’s a star, you’re losing, right? And because at the end, it’s your boss, it’s you.

00:31:37 DIANA
executive and you were supposed to support this executive in their everyday moment. Would you agree to that?

00:31:46 BRIAN
I would say that you really can’t be starstruck when you’re working in this industry. You know, I’ve had a lot of moments. I’ve been to a lot of parties and I’ve been inside a lot of big estates and

00:32:05 BRIAN
seen a lot of things going on behind the scenes. And the thing that I would like to really convey to people that they really have to understand is that this is a business and you have to be a very level-headed business person to be in this industry. And in fact, I would say that in almost every case, the people I’ve met were quite different

00:32:35 BRIAN
than their public personas. And in fact, I’ve been disappointed more than I’ve been delighted, I have to say, frankly. So that is why when you go into this industry, you really have to know that it is a business. And at the end of the day,

00:32:56 BRIAN
Private service professionals do face a lot of adversity. And I often have to have these tough conversations with people that I’m coaching who get discouraged about some of the things that are going on behind the scenes. And I try to get them to screw their head on straight and do a self-assessment and evaluate whether or not it is they want to continue on their career path.

00:33:25 BRIAN
The analogy that I like to use is with police officers or with teachers. So if you’re in law enforcement and you’re out there in the world and you’re not making much money and you’re getting shot at and you’re dealing with a lot of the…

00:33:42 BRIAN
uh dirty parts the the seedy underbelly of society it it makes you wonder why people would want to be in that profession but there is something about being a law enforcement officer that people really love and then the same thing can be said about teachers we know teachers get abused they’re they’re taking a lot of heat they’re working very long hours um

00:34:09 BRIAN
The helicopter parents and the kids shooting spitballs at them. Well, why would you want to do that for such a low pay? Well, there is something about that profession that delighted them. And that’s why they got into it.

00:34:24 BRIAN
So I say the same thing to private service professionals, right? There’s the service heart.

00:34:33 BRIAN
And sometimes people call it a servant’s heart. There’s something about the hospitality industry that people really love.

00:34:42 BRIAN
And so like any profession, there will be good times and there will be bad times. You have to maintain your composure.

00:34:51 BRIAN
A stiff upper lip, as the British say, right?

00:34:56 DIANA
Absolutely. And I have to jump in here as well, because I just read today, earlier, I’m sure you’re aware of that, because of your networks, Anna Vintor is looking again for a new assistant.

00:35:09 DIANA
Salaries, 80,000 US dollars. And I know a lot of assistants are probably listening to us and reading this at the moment. They would say 80,000. Oh, my goodness. This is not going to work for sure. The amount of work I bring is much more worth. Yeah.

00:35:25 BRIAN
It’s a lot worse than you think, because I do have that job posted on my website right now.

00:35:32 BRIAN
The salary range is actually from 60 to 80. So on the low end, you’re at 60. But even at the high end at 80 for New York City, this has upset quite a few people.

00:35:47 BRIAN
And I start getting emails about it. I should say, though.

00:35:55 BRIAN
It’s not unlike the entertainment industry. For example, those Hollywood agents that work at the big agencies had to get a $250,000 education from either USC or UCLA.

00:36:13 BRIAN
And they started in the mailroom and worked their way up the chain of command. And it’s going to be a good five years minimum.

00:36:24 BRIAN
of just scraping by, making nosebleed low salary to be able to work your way up to be an agent where you’re actually dealing with the A-list stars.

00:36:37 BRIAN
You could say the same thing about the movie studios. So the fashion industry is no different. So it seems incredibly unfair to be the personal assistant to Anna Wintour and work those really long hours and take the heat

00:36:53 BRIAN
for only $80,000. So in New York, San Francisco, LA, and Miami, it costs $5,000 a month or $60,000 a year.

00:37:07 BRIAN
just for a livable apartment. Right. So the only person that’s going to be able to take this role is going to have quite a few roommates or they’re going to be living with their parents, frankly. It’s going to be a lot of sacrifice to make it work. But what can be said, though, is that if you could do a job like that for two years, the sky is the limit. So many doors globally are going to fly open because the access that you’re going to get, the, um,

00:37:50 BRIAN
This just occurred to me.

00:37:54 BRIAN
For people who don’t know, if you work for the State Department or you’re a Secret Service agent or you work for the CIA, those salaries are incredibly low. You wouldn’t believe it.

00:38:09 BRIAN
But…

00:38:10 BRIAN
What a lot of people have on their minds when they go into a role like that is, I’m going to do it for five years. I’m going to receive millions of dollars of education and training. And then I’m going to open a consultancy and make $3 million a year running a security outfit or whatever it is that they’re thinking about. So if you want to work for Anna Wintour and you can…

00:38:41 BRIAN
financially get by the rewards at the end are going to be you know there’s going to be a big pot of gold at the end of the ring because you’re either going to be able to move up in that company and maybe become a vice president or it’s going to give you access to all the fashion designers

00:39:01 BRIAN
And so there are many rewards that are going to come from the training and education that you’re going to receive along the way. You have to do a lot of soul searching.

00:39:13 DIANA
Right.

00:39:15 DIANA
Brian, when you when you talk about this, would you say that there is actually a career path for an assistant, maybe starting as a personal assistant to Anna Wintour or Kim Kardashian? So is there a career path possible when you do a good job? I’m so glad you asked. Right.

00:39:34 BRIAN
I get emails every single day from people all over the world that are either in the industry already and they’re trying to level up or they’re thinking of breaking into the industry. I…

00:39:53 BRIAN
have to give them some very honest and candid advice about the career choices they’re making along the way. It is a little bit of a crapshoot, but you have to have a strategy.

00:40:10 BRIAN
Some celebrity assistant jobs, for example, on the outside might seem very glamorous.

00:40:18 BRIAN
But it depends who you’re working for. Could it be a stepping stone to something else? But I get these heartbreaking emails from people saying, I worked for this A-list celebrity for three years. I was being paid cash. Nothing was on the books. And I don’t work for that person anymore. They’ve changed agents. I can’t get in touch with the celebrity anymore. And what I’m leading up to is their employment is not verifiable.

00:40:48 BRIAN
And then I have to be the one to give them really bad news and say, I’m really sorry. You basically just wasted three years of your life because you it doesn’t count it’s like top gun below the hard deck doesn’t count right and if you can’t prove that you worked for somebody you don’t have a a recommendation letter you don’t have paid uh check stubs it doesn’t count so you know i’ll get um

00:41:20 BRIAN
It’s so shocking. I get these messages from people that are working for huge A-list stars that have production companies and they’re making like $150,000 a year. And they’re thinking, oh, I’m thinking of quitting and I want to go somewhere else. I said, don’t quit. I said, are you kidding me? I said, most celebrity assistants are only making $60,000 a year.

00:41:46 BRIAN
um some of them make less and you know that’s not even enough to cover rent and you know there’s a lot of french benefits like the private jets and the red carpet events and stuff but you have to strategize and and know what steps you’re gonna take where ultimate what’s what’s the end game You can’t do it for the sake of doing it just for the fun of it.

00:42:15 BRIAN
You have to always be planning. What is my next three, four or five years going to look like?

00:42:24 BRIAN
So I had somebody once, for example, sent me an email. He was working for a very high profile person in the entertainment industry and

00:42:36 BRIAN
She wanted to quit. And I said, listen, I already know what you’re going to tell me. I said, you’re working 14 hours a day, six, seven days a week. No matter how much you’re getting paid, it doesn’t seem like enough. I said, it’s not going to be any better anywhere else. I said, the bright side for you is that because the person you work for has this gigantic multinational company, that you can start showing your value, work your way up, and you could be a vice president to one of these many businesses that this

00:43:13 BRIAN
famous personality has, I said, you need to start thinking about it that way. Right. And so I often have to talk people off the ledge. I got another call once from somebody who said, I’m working on a private island. I’m only making $250,000 a year. And, you know, this person was working for an icon of industry. And they wanted to quit. And every single time, by the way, I get these calls from people without exception, every single time they fell into the role. They had not worked their way up to that position. So they didn’t have a certain level of gratitude and appreciation because they didn’t understand what was really going out there in the industry. They were living in a bubble and they didn’t actually know what kind of precious situation that they were really in.

00:44:07 BRIAN
So with the guy on the private island, I said, you need to calm down. Absolutely.

00:44:15 BRIAN
And reassess your situation. You’re in a you’re in a wonderful situation. It’s never going to get any better than this. But I get these calls from candidates and like, oh, I’m just going to get another two hundred fifty thousand dollar job working for this other high profile person. They just think these things are like apples on a tree and you can. And I said, you don’t understand. You know, on my facts page for candidates, you know, you go to my jobs page and there’s a link there before you can even read the jobs. It says candidate facts. And I write this really long. There must be twenty five hundred words on this page or more explaining this whole Q&A about how the system works. And I said, listen, you don’t understand how ultra hyper competitive it is.

00:45:07 BRIAN
The example that I used, I used Gal Gadot, the actress in Wonder Woman. I said, in the old days, the actresses in LA were only competing against the Hollywood people. Everything is global now. So when these people contact me and they’re looking for a search, we’re not just searching in one state or one country anymore. We are often on a global scale where they’re going to be competing competing against the world’s best people in the industry. You’re going to be up against hundreds of other A-list level candidates that have been working for billionaires.

00:45:50 BRIAN
They have master’s degrees. They have more qualifications than you do. They’re, you know, Six Sigma, Black Belts. I said, you don’t even know what you’re up against. And so part of what I do as a recruiter being in the middle,

00:46:05 BRIAN
I have to sober people up, both the clients and the candidates.

00:46:12 BRIAN
I talked to them about humility. I said, listen, I was just telling this ultra high net worth client the other day because there’s a certain air that they have about them and the demands that they’re making. I said, sir, listen to me very carefully.

00:46:29 BRIAN
I’m like a sports agent. representing the Michael Jordans of private service.

00:46:36 BRIAN
These people are like sports stars. They are in demand. They know their worth. They are hard to recruit.

00:46:48 BRIAN
So everybody has to go in with a certain level of patience and humility.

00:46:57 BRIAN
Because the candidates sometimes are acting a little arrogant about who they’ve worked with. And oh, I look at Ryan. Do you need to take another look at my resume? I’ve seen your resume. I know who you’ve worked with. And I want to tell you, it’s not a slam dunk like you think it’s going to be. I have the same talk with the clients, too.

00:47:19 BRIAN
Because if people’s expectations are too far apart and then you get these people in the room and they start interviewing with each other and egos get in the way, you’re not going to be able to come to an agreement. It’s just not going to work. You know, I get calls all the time from people.

00:47:36 BRIAN
They’re very discouraged. I remember I got a call once from a private consultancy that was in Las Vegas.

00:47:45 BRIAN
And they had been trying to broker a deal. They weren’t a domestic staffing firm, but they worked with a lot of high net worth people. And they had a client who was a multi-billion dollar figure in the Middle East and the United Arab Emirates. And the woman was almost in tears. And she said, we spent six months trying to close a deal with a candidate.

00:48:07 BRIAN
We offered her a $250,000 salary and a very nice title. We were going to relocate her. And remember, in the UAE, we’re talking tax-free salaries. Exactly. To bring home $250,000, you’d have to be making $500,000 in your Western country because of the tax bracket you’d be in. And then plus you’re getting…

00:48:32 BRIAN
The luxury car that’s included and a luxury condo or high rise apartment that’s worth millions of dollars that you get to stand for free. So you get all the perks, you know, so we’re talking comp packages all in that are worth maybe a million dollars. And then they. they couldn’t work it out.

00:48:55 BRIAN
They couldn’t close the deal. And then they’re like, oh, we’re so discouraged. We have to start all over again. And the reason that these deals fall apart is because you don’t have a middle person like myself trying to broker it and be in front of these problems. I mean, when you’ve been doing it for 16 years like I have, you can be very predictive.

00:49:19 BRIAN
I can look at someone’s resume and talk to them for five minutes and then talk to the client and know right away, instantly, what kind of problems are going to present themselves down the road. And in fact, those problems come in stages. I say, you know, two weeks into the process, this is the hurdle that it’s going to present itself. And after we jump that hurdle, this is going to happen. And almost like clockwork.

00:49:48 BRIAN
You become like a wizard. You’re clairvoyant. And you can just start seeing. So you have to be ahead of these things. And if you don’t,

00:49:59 BRIAN
Put people’s heads on the right way from the very beginning, and I mean both the candidates and the clients. You’re almost sure to be in a situation where you’re going to invest weeks or months of time, and then there’s not going to be any fruit at the end.

00:50:14 SPEAKER_04
Yeah, yeah.

00:50:16 BRIAN
The chasm will be so big that it will be impossible to jump over. You’re like Evo Knievel on the motorcycle jumping over Caesar’s palace fountains trying to get over the canyon. If you see those Evo Knievel wipeouts that are so famous, this is what happens sometimes when you’re putting deals together.

00:50:35 SPEAKER_04
Mm-hmm.

00:50:37 BRIAN
the catastrophic train wrecks that come afterwards. And then the tempers come because then the candidates get upset. The clients get upset. I’ve invested weeks of time. Look what happened. And I said, Hey, remember when we talked about it, you could go back and read the email and I encourage you to do it this way. And you didn’t want to do it. And, you know, so a lot of consulting and consoling.

00:51:03 BRIAN
as part of my job as a recruiter at this level.

00:51:07 DIANA
And this is why we need these agencies, right?

00:51:10 DIANA
Just because the process, again, you’ve been describing, it’s just a huge amount of time dealing with both parties, consulting with both parties, coaching both parties, being a mentor for these people. So, yeah, I mean, incredible job you’re running and also the insights you hear, of course, with every case you get on your desk. So I would love to hear a little bit more also about the skill set they should bring to the table. You’ve been great. telling us thick skin you’ve been telling us resilience is there anything else i mean can only imagine because of the clientele that becomes more international there needs um language skills for sure uh what else would you add i mean in order to to serve this that’s a great question so um somewhere on my website i have a graphic of a three-way venn diagram

00:52:07 BRIAN
It might be on my employer’s facts page on the bottom. I’m trying to remember. But on that Venn diagram, in the very center of those three rings that come together, it says lightning in a bottle. And the three categories for the Venn diagram are hard skills, soft skills, and then traits. This industry is wildly…

00:52:36 BRIAN
unpredictable. So you could be an estate manager for a high net worth person in tech, let’s say.

00:52:45 BRIAN
And those two, you can have two different estate managers working in a 20,000 square foot estate and both the employers are in tech and the jobs will be night and day different from each other. So the first thing I want to say is

00:53:05 BRIAN
It’s really hard to coach people on a career path because, well, this just occurred to me. So I got to meet Drew Barrymore once.

00:53:15 BRIAN
I was at a small event. I was there talking to her and her producing partner.

00:53:25 BRIAN
I apologize. This was 10 years ago. I don’t remember that person’s name. But the story that I was told

00:53:35 BRIAN
I wasn’t the only one there. Drew Barrymore said that she picked up the phone and called this woman who had never been in the entertainment industry before. She had met her at a wedding and said, I’m starting my own production company.

00:53:49 BRIAN
Charlie’s Angels was the first big movie that they made.

00:53:53 BRIAN
And she called this woman and said, I want you to be my producing partner. So this woman said, I read a book about being a movie producer.

00:54:04 BRIAN
And then come to find out when I actually started producing, nothing that I learned in the book was true. Now, that said about private service also. So I could coach people six ways from Sunday about what happened when I was in the industry.

00:54:25 BRIAN
And of course, I have a lot of other stories from other people I’ve coached, but plus the candidates that became clients. And, you know, I have a whole encyclopedia of knowledge.

00:54:36 BRIAN
But sometimes almost none of what I could say could apply to a very specific situation that somebody was in.

00:54:45 BRIAN
But what can you do? Well, here are some commonalities that you’re, regardless of whether you’re a nanny or a security agent or personal assistant or state manager or whatever, right? You’re going to need very thick skin and incredible patience.

00:55:05 BRIAN
Project management is a very big one because regardless of your employer,

00:55:15 BRIAN
You’re going to be in situations where you might have to run events or you’re going to have a lot of moving parts or there might be a construction project. So getting the PMP certificate is not something that very many people talk about. But if you get yourself involved in project management, there’s no way to lose. Another commonality is that you really need to up your skills with Microsoft Office.

00:55:46 BRIAN
Most people who think they’re black belt wizards at MS Office, they really aren’t. They don’t know every single command in the ribbon.

00:55:57 BRIAN
They just don’t. They think they’re pretty good at the commands that they do know.

00:56:03 BRIAN
But when you decide to become certified in Microsoft Office, you’re inevitably going to be learning things that you didn’t know before, especially where you get into Excel. That’s my Achilles heel. I was never very good at Excel. But if you’re going to be working for a billionaire or you’re going to be an estate manager, You’re going to have to manage a lot of data. You’re going to be aggregating things and you’re going to have to be a wizard with Microsoft Excel and, of course, Word and then the calendars and all of that. So in addition to PMP, I would say, you know, up your skills in Microsoft Office. That will never fail you.

00:56:53 BRIAN
And what also people have to do, I often get emails from people who said, I’m the neighbor’s niece. I just got hired. I’m starting in two days. I’m working for a billionaire. I have absolutely no idea what to do.

00:57:10 BRIAN
Crash course. You know, I say go to the site map on my website. There is no other website anywhere in the world that has as many resources as one place available for free to the public as my website. There’s no there’s no close second. You know, I got.

00:57:28 BRIAN
how to build a billionaire’s wine cellar, all the different models for private jets and the distances that they can travel and how much weight for the luggage, what it means to be a sommelier, how to pour wine. I mean, you name it. If it has to do with private service, it’s on my website. So I say you have to steep yourself in the world

00:57:57 BRIAN
of the private service professional and start learning about the exotic car fleets. And, you know, I got a funny story. When I started working for the Royal Saudis, I didn’t know what a Maybach was.

00:58:14 BRIAN
And they were talking Maybach, Maybach. And I was like, what’s a Maybach? I mean, I made myself look like a fool.

00:58:21 BRIAN
So 20 years ago, the tools that are available to people today were not available to me. So part of why…

00:58:33 BRIAN
I’ve built my website the way I did with all the resources is because I made my own wish list. What do I wish I knew?

00:58:45 BRIAN
Right. And so I put it all out there because every day, just like there’s a new busload of people that show up at Hollywood and they want to be stars and they’re fresh, fresh off the bus, as they say, they’re fresh off the bus and private service, too.

00:59:00 BRIAN
There are 3,000 billionaires in the world. There are more than 50,000 households that have net worth between $50 and $500 million. I mean, the debt…

00:59:15 BRIAN
The wealth is just fantastic. You know, these people can employ small armies of staff. And every day there’s a whole new group of people that are starting a private service that don’t know what to do. They can go to my website and they can dive in and start steeping themselves in the language in the world.

00:59:35 DIANA
But how generous of you to put it out there, because I can only imagine these people who are probably settled maybe after one or two years, they got to learn on the job. But again, there’s always how we can do things better and how we can learn, especially when it comes to technology. You need to be a game changer and you need to embrace technology. But it’s not easy that you go out there as the personal assistant of Drew Barrymore and say, oh, I need to network with someone. I need to have someone next to me sharing a little bit out of my role.

01:00:13 DIANA
And of course, maybe letting them know who I work with. So it’s not easy to talk about your role with everyone out there. So are there any specific celebrity networks out there? I know in New York, there’s a big one. Probably L.A. also has one.

01:00:27 BRIAN
I would say on that subject, the good news is for people that are either starting in the industry or people that are already in the industry and they think they need help. There is no shortage of associations and clubs and different things that you can join to help, you know, so you can get advice, so you can level up.

01:00:52 BRIAN
There are clubs and associations for estate managers and nannies and personal assistants and executive assistants. There’s a whole cornucopia of podcasts and everything. So I would tell people you need to dive in and see what works for you. A lot of these…

01:01:16 BRIAN
associations charge or their invite only. They charge and their invite only. So you got to see what works for you. You know, there are plenty of choices out there. There aren’t any burning recommendations I have, but you just

01:01:35 BRIAN
have to see what fits for you. Because what might be a great association for one person might not necessarily be good for someone else. You have to know what niche you’re in.

01:01:50 DIANA
And the funny thing is, if I can add this, because I was kind of helping someone in Germany to work with a high-profile executive.

01:02:01 DIANA
And I know she’s in the job now for three years. It’s a good match. So they are just wonderful together. But I know that this client doesn’t want her to be visible on social media, doesn’t want her to go out there on networking events mentioning the name and the company she works for. Do you hear this a lot also in the U.S. ?

01:02:23 BRIAN
This has always been a problem in our industry. So this idea of discretion and keeping a very low profile.

01:02:34 BRIAN
I’m the poster child for what you’re not supposed to do, but I’m not in the industry anymore. So that’s why a lot of people…

01:02:43 BRIAN
that I know that have been in the industry for a very long time and they’ve survived and they’ve been able to go from one job to another. Generally speaking, they keep it very, very low profile. People that are on social media a little bit too much, even if they’re not mentioning their boss’s name or anything, as soon as you kind of cross that line and you go into that other world, it makes employers nervous because then

01:03:14 BRIAN
they start asking themselves is this person gonna start making videos and taking pictures behind the scenes of things that they shouldn’t and so you you have to be very careful about these sort of situations um because when you’re working in private service um you just don’t know you know it’s all right going back to what i was uh saying before how hyper competitive it is and you’re going to be competing against hundreds of other people well at the end of the day it’s always going to come down to two people and then they start splitting hairs so if they say well here are two people that seem equally qualified they both work you know the resumes are very strong candidate A is on social media a little bit too much and candidate B is a lot quieter it’s a pretty easy decision when you get to that when you’re faced with that sort of dilemma so these are the things people need to be careful of I recall now I was coaching someone years ago

01:04:30 BRIAN
Very nice gentleman, lots of experience, and he was having trouble scoring his next gig. And I looked at his resume and his social media and I said, you know, I have some suggestions for you about how you can polish up a little bit.

01:04:49 BRIAN
The thing that I will never forget as long as I live is on his LinkedIn profile, if you can believe it, he had pictures of someone’s feet.

01:04:59 BRIAN
And I was like, what is that? Because when you comment on people’s profiles now, that becomes part of your professional identity because it’s right on the homepage of your LinkedIn profile, right under your headshot, it shows your activity. So someone had taken a picture of their feet and they said, oh, I’m so sore. I was on my feet all day and I just got a foot massage. And it was a weird thing that the person said,

01:05:28 BRIAN
picture of their feet after they got a foot massage and then he had like commented on that yeah listen man let me let me be frank with you said, I’m a billionaire and I’m looking at your resume and I’m thinking of hiring you to share all my secrets with you and give you all my credit card numbers. And I’m looking at your LinkedIn profile and I see a picture of someone’s feet. I’m going to run the other direction. I’m just thinking. But the guy, he was a bright, the guy was coaching. He’s a very bright person. He has a lot of, but he just didn’t,

01:06:03 BRIAN
He wasn’t thinking of it that way. But because I’m an outside person looking in and I have that perspective, I said, it doesn’t work, man. You’ve got to delete all that stuff. When you’re looking for a job, especially, all your social media profiles need to be on mute. You need to go back. There was this…

01:06:25 BRIAN
guy once i remember um worked at um one of the one of the world’s largest and most powerful talent agencies you know talking about like this anna wintour thing about the the doors that it opens well this guy had worked at this mega power agency but he had been unemployed

01:06:48 BRIAN
for over a year. And I thought, that doesn’t even make sense. I’m looking at his resume and he went to the fancy school and paid $250,000 and stopped school. And

01:06:59 BRIAN
Then I, I Googled him and there was his Facebook page and he’s on a table in Vegas with his shirt off acting like a fool with like a shots and just acting like an idiot. And I thought, Oh my God, no wonder, you know, because of course is 93% of employers and any industry are going to

01:07:28 BRIAN
google you at some point during the process and they usually do it sooner than later and here he is with a very bad social media presence and what i don’t understand about this why people keep making this mistake yeah there have been thousands of stories online fired over facebook posts and stuff i mean people know now more than ever how sensitive it is to do this

01:07:51 BRIAN
And people keep making the same mistakes over and over and over again. I hate to say it. It’s usually the younger people. People over 40 usually learn a lot of really hard lessons in their life. And there is a certain maturity level, both personally and professionally, that the younger people don’t have. But when I see these snafus that people make, it almost always is the younger generation. Right. So people need, you know, they should be teaching this stuff in school, in both high school and college. They need to be teaching what it means to have good business sense.

01:08:31 DIANA
And for every industry, right? For every industry, it’s important because as you said, everyone is going to Google you and keep a low profile, especially in the industry you are dealing with. And I remember… It’s been a few years ago. And of course, I also follow quite a few celebrities on Instagram. And here and there, actually, you see how they sometimes tag people from their staff team. And here and there, it includes an assistant. So, yes, Kris Jenner’s male assistant she has and Gwyneth Paltrow mentioned one of her assistants in the past. And every time when I looked at their profile, they were absolutely low profile. Here we go. Silent, you know, and so super discreet. And it’s exactly what you need to do. And thank you so much for highlighting this once again, because I think out of this wonderful, wonderful, honest and transparent conversation we had,

01:09:27 DIANA
It’s just not this fancy job that some people see on an ad, like reading, and I went towards a job ad, or also something that you’ve been posting recently, a Formula One driver is looking for an assistant, traveling to different states. So please, people, it’s not everything you see out there. So I’m glad that you are here with us today to really clarify a few things.

01:09:51 BRIAN
Well, yeah, the analogy that I like to use is,

01:10:00 BRIAN
those actors that go on those shows and they do the interviews and I’m thinking of the actor’s studio and you’ll see Julia Roberts or, you know, they’ll have all these huge stars. And I posted about this recently. There was an article about celebrities and billionaires saying, follow your dreams and all of this stuff.

01:10:25 BRIAN
And some people say that it’s bad advice.

01:10:28 BRIAN
It might be.

01:10:30 BRIAN
The thing that discourages me about those shows where the actors go on and they do the interviews, the part that they never say, I’ve never heard it once. The ugly truth is that 99.9% of people say,

01:10:46 BRIAN
who moved to LA that want to be an actor will never make a dime.

01:10:51 BRIAN
Statistically speaking, there’s a 99.9% chance you’re going to fail. They never talk about that. I think it’s irresponsible not to do that. So while I am an advocate for our industry, I’m a cheerleader for our industry.

01:11:11 BRIAN
It is a wonderful industry.

01:11:13 BRIAN
At the same time, I don’t sugarcoat anything. I am very clear with people, even when I coach them, that there are pros and cons to this industry. And I am willing to share that information. Most people aren’t.

01:11:31 DIANA
Yes. And that’s exactly why you are on the show here, because I absolutely appreciate your openness here.

01:11:40 DIANA
There are actually two last questions I have for you, Brian.

01:11:44 DIANA
We need to find out what’s going on with L.A. because a lot of celebrities, and I’ve read it in various articles, are leaving L.A. because the situation is not as safe as it was anymore, talking about crime, talking about drugs. So how do you see the situation?

01:12:00 BRIAN
Yeah.

01:12:03 BRIAN
They’re in dire straits. I’m not going to sugarcoat that.

01:12:07 BRIAN
The crime is up. The homeless encampments everywhere. San Francisco is not much better.

01:12:16 BRIAN
Two years ago, like I said, when I went on the road with a client, I spent an extended amount of time in San Francisco. I was there for several months. And

01:12:30 BRIAN
California, generally speaking, they’ve got some challenges that they’re trying to face.

01:12:36 BRIAN
So the good news is this. 3000 billionaires in the world. About 600 or so are in the United States, less than 100 are in New York City.

01:12:53 BRIAN
Now, what am I getting at? What I’m getting at is there are billionaires and ultra high net worth families everywhere in every state in America.

01:13:05 BRIAN
There are 10 million millionaires. So what is that? A couple hundred thousand per state. There there’s no shortage of people right there in your backyard, wherever you live, that you can work with. So you don’t have to have stars and go to San Francisco, L.A., New York or Miami.

01:13:25 DIANA
I mean, look at people like Matthew McConaughey. He’s out in Texas. And, you know, I also read the other day, who was it? One of Kelly Clarkson who said, I’m going to move to New York. And if you want to keep me as your moderator for the show, you need to move the whole production to New York. Right. So there’s a lot of things going on. Right.

01:13:44 BRIAN
Yeah. So what I tell people is one of the biggest surprises of my career is, you know, I get these frantic calls from people in the in the middle states. So not just the Midwest, but any of those states, you know, as soon as you go off the coast, the East Coast or the West Coast, and you work your way inward, it becomes incredibly difficult that world class talent. The big shocker to me is how unwilling people are.

01:14:14 BRIAN
to make a move, go out of their comfort zone. I’m working with a client now in the Midwest who’s a high-profile billionaire, and they’re doing a nationwide search for a chef and a housekeeper. And the reason is they can’t find the caliber of talent that they need.

01:14:41 BRIAN
outside of those big cities, right? But the problem is a lot of candidates don’t want to move.

01:14:48 BRIAN
This is a shocker to me because you could, if you were making 150 in New York and you moved to the Midwest to make it 150, you’ve just almost, you’ve definitely doubled your salary, maybe even tripled, you know, relatively speaking, because the cost of living is so much lower.

01:15:12 BRIAN
when you’re out of those big cities, but people get kind of too comfortable with the big city life. And I had a guy once that was in, you know, I get people from Texas and Montana.

01:15:28 BRIAN
In Idaho, they have these huge ranches. They’re willing to pay 150 and up. They can’t get the talent because people don’t want to go to their comfort zones and move out of the big cities. So I would say to the people who are new in the business,

01:15:43 BRIAN
that want some world-class opportunities, take the road less traveled.

01:15:51 BRIAN
Go out of the big cities because if you’re trying to level off or you’re trying to break in and you’re competing against that world-class talent in those big cities, it’s going to be much harder for you.

01:16:02 BRIAN
If you take the road less traveled and you’re willing to go out of your comfort zone, there are some world-class, once-in-a-lifetime opportunities out there just sitting, waiting to be had if you’re willing to go for it.

01:16:19 DIANA
And people don’t do it on your own. You know, make sure you reach out to Brian, who has the right network.

01:16:26 DIANA
So make sure you check in with our show notes, because you’ll find all the information around Brian’s agency and his LinkedIn profile. And yeah, of course, make sure you connect and learn even more.

01:16:44 DIANA
But I have one last question, actually, because you have been on the road a lot with your former executives when you were part of this industry, being there as an assistant chief of staff yourself. So when you look back at all these trips, all these private jets going to all different countries, what is one of the most memorable trips you still have in your head where you think like, that was great and maybe I’m going to go back one day?

01:17:11 BRIAN
It’s very ironic that you’re asking this question. I did a tour of the Middle East.

01:17:19 BRIAN
I was in several countries, including Saudi Arabia. I might be going back actually very soon. I have something hot off the press that this is the first I’ve talked about it, the exclusive on your show.

01:17:36 BRIAN
I might be going back to the Middle East for a project. You know, the Middle East is there’s so much to offer. You know, I’ve been all over Europe, all over Asia. I’ve been to the Middle East and there’s something the mystique of it.

01:17:55 BRIAN
It’s not what people think it is. You know, of course, certain places you do have to be careful, but that’s true in Europe, too.

01:18:05 SPEAKER_04
Absolutely.

01:18:05 BRIAN
Paris and London can be very dangerous.

01:18:08 BRIAN
Yeah. So I had a wonderful trip to the Middle East.

01:18:15 BRIAN
I’ve been to Dubai.

01:18:18 BRIAN
Even though it’s not the Middle East, I’ve been to Istanbul, but, you know, it’s an Islamic culture. I was in Jordan.

01:18:27 BRIAN
I loved it. You know, there’s so much to offer.

01:18:32 BRIAN
There was that story I told you of the consultancy in Vegas and someone turned down a $250,000 job. They didn’t want to move to the Emirates. Yeah. There are a lot of opportunities out there in the Middle East.

01:18:51 BRIAN
I think people should look into it.

01:18:53 DIANA
Absolutely. I actually teach there. I have clients when I run my webinars. So a lot of assistants joining my webinars from the Middle East. And these are very high profile assistants. And really, yeah, it’s a whole different level, as we all know, how we look at Dubai and also Saudi Arabia, what you have been sharing with us or other countries.

01:19:18 DIANA
And I like to observe that. And by the way, I also like the fact that they actually have a lot of mail assistance in these countries. Is this something you observe as well?

01:19:27 BRIAN
Yeah. So, uh, particularly in the middle East, um, there’s a lot of opportunity for men because as we know, I mean, there, there’s no sugarcoating this, you know, most assistance and private service or in the corporate world are women.

01:19:44 BRIAN
It’s, it’s a little tougher for men. Um, for a lot of reasons, I don’t want to get into all of them, but has something to do with, uh, a little bit to do with the egos of the VIPs that you’re working for. But again,

01:19:56 BRIAN
For cultural reasons, the women in the Middle East hire female companions or assistants and then the men hire males.

01:20:09 BRIAN
So, yeah, there are definitely a lot of opportunities out there. You know, Saudi Arabia has really opened up.

01:20:17 BRIAN
Their crown prince has completely, I could use the word revolutionized, you know, Saudi Arabia. There are a lot of they’ve dropped a lot of these old school rules and women are driving now and going to school and, you know, taking their burqas off and all of this. So, you know, movie theaters are opening. It’s a completely different world than it used to be.

01:20:43 BRIAN
Yeah. Go ahead.

01:20:47 DIANA
So it must be very interesting. I mean, first of all, thank you so much for sharing the hot news that there is a project waiting for you. And so I can only imagine how excited you are also to going back to these places where you have been working and spending your time and, you know, freshening up memories.

01:21:03 BRIAN
Yeah. Looking forward to it.

01:21:06 DIANA
It has been a huge pleasure talking to you once again. Thank you so much for giving us your view of this industry. Because for sure, a lot of people, as we heard, look totally into the wrong direction when they see a job ad and they see a celebrity name and they see a billionaire’s estate. So everyone out there who is interested, of course, in getting to know more about this industry, make sure you reach out to Brian. And yeah, just… hear a little bit more about the things you’ve been sharing with us great wisdom you’ve been sharing so thank you so much once again and wishing you all the best and enjoy the rest of the farthest day yes it’s my pleasure thank you have a great day thank you

01:21:52 DIANA
You never know when it’s time to find the next challenge. So make sure to reach out to Brian Daniel. We have all the necessary links in the show notes. And maybe he’s going to be a big help for you for finding the next match. Thank you so much, Brian, for being on the show. And I hope to meet you one day in person.