“… became convinced that the Bible is truly the Word of God!”

For those who can stand it, here is a direct link to the MP3 recording.

The lecture itself is filled to the brim with amazing scientific facts, interesting insights, and flawed thinking. Much of the sermon (yes, I am comfortable calling it that) points to the intricate details of the universe and how if any one of the cosmological constants were different, then life would not be possible. Somehow (for reasons he does not go into in any depth) this eliminates all other contender Gods, leaving Yahweh standing true. I cannot comment on the reasoning of this, because none is presented. Neither does Dr. Ross offer the alternative that none of the God stories are true.

Of course, this is primarily an argument from design. Essentially, Dr. Ross is arguing that the universe we see is so complex and fine-tuned that it simply must have been designed for human life. It seems it has not occurred to him that life on Earth has evolved to fit the conditions here, or that there is no possible way that life may have evolved differently and human would not exist at all. How egocentric can you get? I guess he was made in his God’s image after all.

Positing a God to solve this apparent problem does not actually solve the issue. If God were to be at all complex, then (by exactly the same argument) he must have been created as well. This obviously leads to an infinite regress which solves nothing.

Interestingly, the only escape from which (at least as I have been able to logically determine) is that God is the least complex thing imaginable. I would assert that something which does not exist is absolutely without any attributes which require explanation; therefore God does not exist.

How can it be that the same argument which proves God also disproves him? Oh yes – the concept of God is bullshit.

Those well versed in debating theology will recognise Dr. Ross’s second error – he is referring to life as we know it. That says nothing about a potential infinite number of ways in which other forms of life may have evolved, or the bio-chemical systems on which it depends. Indeed, even in the framework of the chemistry for the known universe some have theorised silicon based life systems (to name one).

Near the end of this torturous lecture Dr. Ross addresses a number of common rebuttals to the arguments he put forward. Unsurprisingly he manages to completely misunderstand them and offers horrible analogous straw men to burn before his devoted audience. In order to do them justice (and to limit the size of my blog posts after the last round of lengthy and boring tirades) I will be addressing each of these in separate and subsequent posts.

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Marcus raises a few points which I cannot help respond to, but not for the reasons you might think. There are statements in his latest reply which really underline the fact that no amount of evidence or rational, logical constructions will convince him otherwise. He has made up his mind, and nothing will convince him otherwise.

So this will be my last reply to Marcus, but not because I think he has won or I am painted into a corner. I am slowly learning that people need to come to their senses in their own time, in their own way. My hope with these conversations has always to be to drop that one gem of doubt and questioning into someone’s mind – as happened to me. I realise now that this is largely a pointless exercise. These people are sent for our amusement, and should not be engaged in meaningful debate unless you have countless hours to waste.

As usual, Marcus’s responses are quoted below, with my comments underneath.

Yes, Jesus knew He was going to die. And He knew it was going to hurt. He also knew He did not deserve it. He know You and I deserve it. A sacrifice means giving up something that you don’t have to give up. He chose to give up His life and pay for our sins. He paid the penalty of sin for us. That does not mean that He had to stay dead.

It’s the “did not deserve it” part that bothers me here. As I have outlined previously, we are lead to believe that Jesus is God, and therefor he is responsible for the creation of the universe (according to the awful arguments from design, and ignorance). An omniscient being could not help but foresee and predict ever consequence of ever action, ever. God, knowing who would sin first and his punishment, would have also known billions of others since he came to Earth to kill himself would reject him and be sent to Hell. For this we are meant to praise him? Fuck that.

In addition, who says the price of sin is death? Who sets the penalty? Can the penalties be changed? What would an all loving being do – forgive us anyway?

Who says you are free now? We are in bondage to sin. You feel it. You know that. You look at the standard in the Bible for what Holiness looks like and you know you can never meet that. Jesus came to free us from our inability to live up to that. He didn’t come to free us from that standard. Is there free will in Heaven? I don’t know. What i do now it’s gonna be better than what we got now.

You are obviously talking about a different kind of free will to the one I am referring to. I have been talking about the freedom to choose as you please. For example: Are you free to eat when you please, or is this an irresistible urge driven by your bodies need for fuel? Are you free to chose what you want to eat, or is that the eventual result of what happens to be available at the time and a incredibly complex series of biochemical reactions in your brain and body?

Is there any decision we could make that would surprise God? If God is all knowing, then the answer must be “no”. We only have the apparent illusion of free will. We think we are free to choose, but it has all been designed, conceived, and set into play by an all knowing being to fulfil some grand divine plan.

The Bible promises that on Judgement day we will see what complete justice and mercy looks like. No one will have any excuse. Everyone will know that God is right in everything He has done. The Bible also promises no tears and no suffering for those who are spending eternitiy with Him that means that we won’t be witnessing the suffering of those who are in Hell. This isn’t conjecture this is what the Bible teaches. If you want take issue with, you have to take it up with God. I didn’t write it. Another thing is true repentence comes from responding to the love of God not from the fear of hell and eternal punishiment.

A little bit of unfounded Biblical assertion as truth, mixed with some Pascal’s wager, and a dash of “nobody knows, but I’m sure she’ll be right mate.”

You still havern’t proved that God does not exist.

You can’t prove a negative.

Marcus, let me try to illustrate. You have not proved Allah does not exist. By your own argument, he therefore must exist. You can’t prove I do not have a diamond the size of a refrigerator in my backyard, but that says nothing about the truth of my claim I do. It’s a stupid fucking argument.

God can do whatever He wants to do. He will have mercy on whom He willl have mercy. Read Romans 9.

And those God does not “choose to have mercy on”? What about them?

Another big fuck up here is apparently everything God does is totally moral, just, and perfect. He can (and has) murdered millions, yet his hands are clean. For some reason, God’s morality is not the same as ours (to spite being made in his image). We have built a society where murderers are isolated from the general population, and in some cases removed from the gene pool altogether. Yet, this judgement on God for exactly the same (and worse) atrocities is not allowed. Amazing.

No where does God say that anyone, who has the opportunity to accept/reject Christ, get a free pass to heaven. The truth is i have been given too much information…too much light….to get a free pass. He isn’t going to give me a free pass. I’m going to have to live the way He says because I belong to Him. Jesus paid a high price and being aware of that and accepting that brings consequences just as rejecting if bring awful consequences. I’m getting this from the Bible which you can’t prove to be false.

It is trivial to prove the Bible wrong, but centuries of apologetics and a dim mind lets any excuse pass as a rational explanation for the obvious flaws.

Also interesting that neither of them are supported in the Bible either. Could God had somehow intervened to maskes sure those ideas were squashed? Yes He did.

Oh I see – God suppressed the incorrect religions of the world, but somehow managed to miss Islam, Judaism, Hinduism, Scientology, Catholicism, and all other others. He just picked on a few slightly different versions of Christianity that happened to be conflicting with your at one point in history. Riiiiight.

Okay, that is similar to how I look at it…almost. The future is not something that God just knows about. It’s something that he controls and guides.

Preciously. So tell me how we escape his control and guidance? The morality God has placed in me judges him to be a complete bastard, and I want nothing to do with him. Thank Christ he does not exist!

Yes, Hell will suck and I’m not going because Jesus paid for my sins on the cross so I don’t has to go. Now, I’d be way more worried about these verses if I were you.

First you say that Hell is not described in the Bible, so I show you some verses that do. Now you’re admitting it’s a scary place and I should be worried about it. Pascal’s wager again? Seriously?

You don’t actively interfere in everyone of your daughters decisions even if you know that sometimes it will cause them pain. If you did, they would never learn from failure. They would never grow. God does the same with us.

So God builds a universal system to inflict pain to teach us a lesson. If you don’t learn that lesson you will suffer in the most unimaginable pain for ever more. Nice guy.

There is plenty evidence that the gospel account is the best explanation for the facts that we know.

Hahahahaaaa.

There are hundreds of supposed events that are not supported by any evidence at all, but you believe what you want.

All you have to do is prove the Bible false and my who arguement collapases. This you have failed to do.

No – you have failed to listen and think.

You know nothing. The Bible says Eve was tricked. Adam was not tricked. He knew what he was doing. Eve thought that she was doing the right thing. Adam damned us. It wasn’t on Eve.

Adam was tricked by Eve. Douche.

You are right. That is not how you get a good number. I only used that number because It seems to me that the Old Testament only covers that amount not that it is the age of the earth. The Bible does not claim that the geneologies in Genesis give the names and ages of everyone. Remember what I tweeted earlier: hebrew geneologies are not exhaustive. They only hit the high points.

So the Earth is not 6,000 years old? I wonder if your estimation is anywhere near the scientific one of 4.54 billion years, which is verified by independent and mutually supporting lines of inquiry? That’s one large magnitude of error, but of course the Bible is correct regardless of any evidence to the contrary – right?

If your claim that “they only hit the high points” is correct, then a notable person does not come along that often. Your error is 756,666 times OFF the actual estimate! So what are we lead to believed happened? Adam started a book and wrote his name in it, then every one worthy afterwards did the same? Or was is that some drugged up goat herder was inspired by the holy spirit to write down a few names? You seriously consider these kind of explanations plausible? No wonder you will believe any old crap told to you.

If this bothers you..the fault is in how people have used the Bible not in the Bible itself.

…and poof! Any error found in the Bible are not errors after all. They are just our misunderstandings of the Bible. The Bible is perfect except where we have shown it is not, in which case the Bible is perfect and we are still wrong.

Idiotic.

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None Found

For the past few days I have been…um…dialoguing with a person on twitter about the nature of God, evidence for his existence, and human free will. He felt compelled to write a full blog post in response to the discussion. I feel honored. He obviously put a lot of thought into it. I’ve decided to respond in kind. In addition this essay is a lot more respectful and articulate that some his tweets. My words will be in red and his will be in black.

I am not sure I put that much effort into it – it was essentially a stream of consciousness, which I did not even re-read once complete. Nevertheless, I appreciate the full blog post in response and will respond to your comments in turn.

I think for the purposes of our discussion we will continue to leave the Trinity out of the discussion and save it for some other time. This guy is the one who misunderstands. The son willingly gave himself for us as the propitiation for our sins and no one deserves it.

Many bright minds have delved the depths contained in the mystery of the trinity, and none have really come up with a definition or rational explanation. The essence of most modern Christian theology is that God, Jesus, and something called the “Holy Ghost” form three parts of the same god – something like ice, water, and steam are different representations of water.

On the surface, this explanation of the trinity seems to solve the riddle, that is until you remember that one part of god cursed us for all time for the horrendous crime of disobeying him, while the other died to pay the price of this transgression (although he came back to life, so it’s unclear what kind of sacrifice it really was).

Let’s leave all that rubbish behind us because there is no solution to the conundrums it creates.

Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy set before him endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. – Hebrew 12:2

The other point is that Jesus did not die and stay dead He is alive. He rose.

So again I ask, what kind of sacrifice did Jesus make. He certainly did not lay down his life for us since, as you point out, “he is alive”. When you add in the dimension of omniscience, Jesus also knew he was going to die, and be risen again – so even entering into the whole sordid affair was just playing things out.

But God raised him from the dead, freeing him from the agony of death, because it was impossible for death to keep its hold on him. – Acts 2:24

I’m not ignoring the fact fate that many people are going to spend eternity in Hell. It bothers me. I don’t want anyone to go to Hell. That is why I want to tell everyone I can that God has provided us a way to escape the fate that will befall us without God’s intervention. God does not take joy in people going to hell.

God may not take joy in sending people to Hell, but he does it anyway. As I pointed out, there may have been an infinite ways to create a universe where people had free will and did NOT choose to rebel against God. Answer this simple question: “Is there free will in Heaven?”

If the answer is “yes”, then free will is not required for obedience or absolute happiness. If the answer is “no” then I submit that being turned into robotic automatons is not many people’s idea of Heaven.

I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.” – Luke 5:32

The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. – 2 Peter 3:9

In heaven there is no reason to think that those in heaven will be able to see or know anything about the torture in Hell. Where is that in the Bible, just an appeal to emotion…no substance to the argument.

Hello Pot, this is Kettle.

You have spent a great deal of time detailing what will happen to me if I choose to reject Jesus and God – I will be pointed straight to hell. This is a clear appeal to emotion. Oh, I am scared of Hell so I better do as you say.

Unfortunately, Christians are not the only ones to use this bizarre tactic of al all loving God. Islam is the prime modern example who employ exactly the same low brow method of conversion. They also use appeals to incredulity, arguments from design, and just as many straw men. Ironically, these are all arguments for deist Gods, and not for one in-particular.

It’s nice to think that you will not have a few of Hell from your pearly seats in the Heavens. While it is true that the Bible does not answer these questions in any way (it answers precious few in reality), it does not rule out the possibility. Will you remember that billions will be living for eternity without God’s grace? Will God change your character so you won’t remember? If so, in what way will your soul still be you? If you can witness the suffering, doesn’t this detract from the joy you might feel?

Once again, the Bible is hopelessly inadequate to answer such questions, and you are just guessing if you try.

Andrew, you are missing one very important point. How would you know that any of us would exist if God had not allowed this kind of universe, neither you nor your children would exist as you exist now.

This is irrelevant. A God could well have chosen not to create anything, thereby eliminating the need for anyone to suffer at all.

God has a purpose in choosing this universe rather than another. I don’t know what it is.

So the question remains – what kind of divine plan requires the eternal suffering of a good portion of his creation? I am sure you believe there is some ultimate plan which mandates God ignoring many of his children, but I fail to see how an all loving deity could inflict such pain when there may have been numerous alternatives open to him.

However, I do know that God has only good intentions for His creation and not one of us knows enough of what’s going on to challenge the decisions He has made. How do you know that things would not have been worse had God not allowed another universe? We don’t.

I agree – we don’t know things would not have been worse, or better for that matter. On the spectrum of possible universes I am sure there are a great number of universes worse than this one, and a great number much better. I do not need to provide evidence that this is actually the case, but the mere suggestion is enough to raise the possibility. It seems logical that an omnipotent being would be able to choose from an infinite number of possible realities – perhaps he has actually created them all through the power of his thought alone? Who knows?

That’s what being a Christian is about. Trusting God even if we don’t know what the whole masterpiece looks like.

Well that’s great, but you have no idea if you are actually trusting an entity who exists outside of space and time, or a mere figment of your imagination.

Another attempt to use emotion rather than logic. This analogy does not fit where humanity is spiritually before coming to Christ. People who end up in hell are not Children of God (Joun1;1 John 3).

Fancy footwork and playing with words does not alter the fact that, according to your antiquated theology, we are ALL children of God. Some he has preordained to spend the rest of their days without his love. Who does that?

The other things asking why would God not lower the price of sin to something less severe is a silly idea. Lowering the bar for righteousness is not Justice. It’s about the character of God that sets the bar. Righteous is who He is. To lower the standard would be going against himself. Even our own secular wisdom says: “To your own self be true”. Why shouldn’t God do the same? As for disease and pain and suffering God has a purpose and I don’t know what it all is yet, but God promises in His Word that.

Who says? Who are you to decide what is justice? Apparently God decides what is just and what is not, and I am sure he could decide to grace us all with his love should he choose. You may not think this is fair because you have tried to live a good Christian life (whatever that means) and tried to do all the right things. How could it be fair that someone who has lead a life of hedonistic pleasure be granted a free pass into Heaven – they have not controlled themselves. You have denied yourself pleasure in this life to attain the promise of pleasure in some afterlife for which there is no evidence.

For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form,

Actually, this line of thinking is only prevalent because the Emperor of Rome backed the Pauline position that Jesus was both human and divine, then proceeded to suppress the two main competing views.

The Marcionites believed that Jesus was purely divine and not human at all – his humanity was an illusion, a phantasm. They believed Jehovah created this world as detailed in the Old Testament, and the One True God was so disgusted with his behaviour that he sent part of his soul (Jesus) to pay for the souls of those Jehovah tortured in Hell, thus saving them.

The Adoptionists believed that Jesus was fully human, but adopted by the Biblical God at his baptism (hence the name). Jesus’s soul escaped his human body at the crucifixion. Mohammed seized upon this idea and claimed himself to be adopted by God to preach his word, thus founding the religion of Islam.

Both were almost completely wiped out when the Romans used their military might to squash opposing views. These are a matter of historical record.

and you have been given fullness in Christ, who is the head over every power and authority. In him you were also circumcised, in the putting off of the sinful nature, not with a circumcision done by the hands of men but with the circumcision done by Christ, having been buried with him in baptism and raised with him through your faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead.

When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross. And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.

Ahhh…. what?

No, I never said that Free Will comes into this at all. I’m not suggesting that our will trumps God’s at all. I reject that humans have free will in that God must do anything according to our will.

I was not saying that either. I do not hold that our “free will” could trump God’s, or that an omniscient creator must somehow bend to our will. What I proposed it that God would have known our all of our decisions at the beginning of time. He can foresee the future stretching out before him like a well known movie. He knows all the characters moves, their motivations. He knows each frame of the movie in intricate detail. The characters in the movie (us) believe we have free will, but it’s an illusion. God knows exactly how it is going to end, and how the whole series will play out.

We do have will. We do have desires but they are subject to God’s ultimate will. And don’t forget we all go to Hell by default until we turn to God. Now how does that happen? How does God do that? Why doesn’t He do that for everyone? No man can say…least of all me. All I know is if you haven’t turned to God in total submisson and obedience you do not belong to Him.

Sigh. And God created me not to belong to him. How does that fit with the notion of “all loving”?

Sorry to break it to you. We do choose, but not because of anything in us or from us. Read Romans 9. However the conclusion you draw is stupid. You are not free from sin and death until you come to God. Before that you are in slavery to sin. If you want to be free you got to go to Jesus. That is what the Bible teaches.

I am well aware of what the Bible teaches. It says we are born sick and commanded to be well. We were created with the capacity for sin and tempted by a talking snake, then every descendant was cursed by your all loving god to live miserable lives until God came back to Earth to kill himself to pay for the sin he created in the first place. It’s totally crazy, but you believe whatever floats your boat.

Complaining about the fact that God has selects whom he has mercy on is silly. If you want to be saved then God has called you to be saved. If you don’t then He didn’t and you don’t want to be saved anyway.

That’s one of my main points – you can worship a being who would have known which individuals would “chose” to reject him (after all, he created us this way), then turn around and say it was somehow a choice of free will.

For the last time – free will is an illusion to an omniscient being. If you know the results of your actions, and the subsequent results extending forever into the future, then you are completely paralysed. There is no “choice” God could make in which he did not know the outcome – indeed you would have to ask the question what drives a being to do anything, especially when you consider his apparent unlimited power.

Andrew, why do you think that is what Hell will be like. Nothing in the Bible talks about the torture you describe. Stick to the text please.

Better read your Bible again, mate.

The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth – Matthew 13:41-42

If thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire. – Matthew 18:8

Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness, there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. – Matthew 22:13

Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels. … And these shall go away into everlasting punishment. – Matthew 25:41, 46

into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. – Mark 9:43-48

The hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. – John 5:28

In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction. – 2 Thessalonians 1:8-9

The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever. – Revelations 14:10

And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever – Revelations 20:10

And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. – Revelation 20:14-15

Care to comment on those?

You cannot interfere with your children’s free will, but God can and does. He is in complete control of everything. Sometime he restrains what we do and sometimes He doesn’t. For reasons and purpose we don’t fully understand He works out the reality we experience. Your analogy fails because it attempts to explain something so infinite in finite terms that cannot possibly measure up.

So just like God I can decide when to interfere with my daughters “free will” and when not too. When they are in clear danger and I chose not to act, what does that make me? What does it make your God when he choses not to act?

Jesus substantiated that claim when He walked out of that tomb with all power in His hand.

There is no credible evidence that this ever happened. You have the stories of less than a handful of people written decades after to supposed event. It’s no more believable than “Jack and the Beanstalk”.

We’ve been through this in Twitter. I’ve presented links to you for evidence for the resurrection and yet you haven’t provided a shred of rebuttal for rejecting the fact that Jesus is what He said. All other religions deny this. Every single one of them. Hell is not a scare tactic. I serve God not because I’m afraid of goint to hell but because I love Him because He first loved me.

So your not in the least bit scared of Hell?

I’m not better than anyone else. He has done nothing but show me love and kindness my whole life. Why would I not serve Him? He deserves it. Even if he had never done a thing for me other than allow my birth, I owe Him everything. You owe Him also. It’s irrational to avoid the evidence just because you don’t like where it points.

I agree with this – let the evidence speak for itself. So far, you certainly have not shown any evidence there was actually a resurrection – no one ever has, because there is none. Zero. Not a damn thing. You have given vague Biblical quotes without first providing evidence the Bible is even true. Geez, even if parts of the Bible are true does not make it all true. “Gone with the Wind” is not a true story just because there was a civil war.

You agreed with me that the standards God asks us to meet according to the Bible are too high for any person to attain.

Can you control your thoughts? If you have ever lusted after someone you have committed adultery in your heart, which is expressly forbidden in the 10 commandments (which are the first of a list of around 60). The standards are impossible.

I agree. That is why Jesus came. He made up the difference for us. He lived the life we can’t. Just like Adam damned us all through His disobedience, Jesus saves us through His obedience, life, sacrifice, and resurrection. All we have to do is accept it. IF you can’t accept it, it isn’t because God rejected you. It is because you have rejected Him

Eve was tricked first – why do I know more about your religion than you do?

Dude, It’s been 2000 years (5000 yrs or more if you count the Old Testament) …

You know how they calculated that fucked up number of a 6,000 year old Earth? They added the ages of the people in the Bible together. That’s it. That’s all they did. How scientific and reliable is that? I mean really?

… and Christianity is sitll growing and people are still coming to Jesus.

People are still flocking to Islam, so what? Even more people are shedding their superstitious believes and living full, happy, lives.

God loves you and desire a relationship with you. Seek Him and be truly free. As a parting point, I’m not suggesting that Babies go to hell and that a person would need to absolutely know about Jesus to be saved. I was talking about people who are alive now and have an opportunity to know who Jesus is. Babies go back to God automatically if they die (see 2 Samuel 12:22-24 for an example of what happens when a Baby dies).

You have no way of knowing this is true.

I think what is more important is the realization that there were a lot of people who lived and died and yet we believe they are in heaven and did not have access to the the same knowledge of Jesus as we do now (see Hebrews 11). These men and women just followed after God with what they knew at the time. Jesus also said that all those who seek him would find him. I believe that this is true no matter what. So that anwers the problem of those who aren’t born into Christianity or were born before Christ came. I’m sure that there were billions of people born before Christ will also be in heaven.

Jesus said “I am the way, the truth, and the light. No one gets to the Father except through me.” Seem to me that all those before he appeared on the scene are doomed since they did not have a chance to know Jesus.

In any case, if these billions of people before Jesus appeared do automatically get into Heaven, then how is that fair to the billions who came afterwards? How come babies get a free pass before they even have a chance to form a coherent thought? Earlier you were talking about a God of justice, yet here we have examples of him metering out celestial justice in grossly unfair ways.

I still maintain your God, if he existed, would be a total monster and not worthy of any worship.

UODATE: Marcus’s reply is here for all to see.

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One of these points which we have been hitting back and forth is the conflict between free will and omniscience. Marcus’s latest explanation is this (starting at this tweet):

You are right billions of people are going to hell. But billions of people are also going to heaven and God knows who is going where.

Instead of asking why you got to go to hell, you are missing the fundamental question: Why do people go to hell?

People don’t go because God doe not go against their free will or that they chose the wrong religion. Everyone has failed to meet the standard for holiness that God has set. By definition, every human being capable of choosing to to disobey God deserves hell. Even those of us who are saved deserve hell. The only difference is that God has chosen to save some of humanity through faith in Christ – Ephesians 2.

Yes, God knows who will go to hell, and He could force every single person to repent. But he does not. Why? For reasons known only to Him. No one comes to Christ against their own will. Everyone who rejects him does so willingly.

If you interviews anyone in hell and tell them that all they have to do is serve God and they can get out of hell, they will refuse and walk right back into hell. Think I’m wrong? Well, you are making the same stupid decision today if you reject Jesus.

What a jumbled mess of theology and poor logic this is, but let’s see if we can unravel some of Marcus’s ahhh… misunderstandings.

The “fact” billions might be destined for Heaven has zero bearing on the “fact” that billions are also destined for Hell. There is a dichotomy in Marcus’s head. On one hand he has an all loving God who is willingly to kill his own son in order to save us from this fiery fate (not himself mind you, unless you want to delve into the murky depths of the trinity). Marcus wishes to ignore the terrible fate of those who “choose” to spend eternity in Hell to keep his precious image of Heaven intact. Marcus – will you have a good view from Heaven where you can witness the damned being tortured?

The second part of that sentence is very telling: “and God knows who is going where”. This is classic cognitive dissonance in action, and has been my point throughout the discussion.

Marcus, imagine a time before creation. God could have created any one of an infinite number of possible universes. Being omniscient he would have known out each would play out and how their eventual destruction would come about. He would have known the intricate details of every molecule, dust speck, and living organism within each possible universe before he lifted his transcendental finger. He would have foreseen the creation of multiple religions and the false Gods that millions would bow down to. He knew which universes would contain billions of people who would end up “choosing” to reject his divinely invisible love and point themselves towards the burning gates of Hell. Yet to spite all of this he went ahead and created this universe – one in which billions do fall for the lies of “false religions”, following “false Gods” or no god at all, and wind up having the flesh burnt from their writhing bodies for all eternity. On this basis alone I would reject such a monstrosity of a being is such a thing existed (luckily there is no evidence for such a beast).

According to the theology of Christianity, God took human form as his own son so that he could pay the price of sin. Naturally, no one has been able to sufficiently answer why death is the price of sin, or why God, in his all loving mercy, could not adjust the price of sin to something less severe. You see, an all loving being would do anything and everything within his power to prevent harm from coming to those he loves, yet this is exactly what we do not see in the world. God routinely ignores prayer, sits idly by as thousands starve to death everyday, and allows his perfectly designed bacteria to infest, overcome, maim, and kill his beloved children. This is not a God I would be interested in worshipping.

Anyway, back to Marcus’s tweets:

“Everyone has failed to meet the standard for holiness that God has set.”

So why did God set the standard so high – surely he knew the organisms in this universe were not capable of attaining such lofty heights of morality without the mandated shedding of animal sacrifice, reaching its crescendo with the most perfect of all human sacrifices in the murder of Jesus himself? Oh, I am forgetting “free will” again, aren’t I?

The only difference is that God has chosen to save some of humanity through faith in Christ.

Wait a minute, I thought we had free will to choose to between eternal bliss, or complete agony? If God has already chosen who to save through “faith in Christ” then what can I do to change the ultimate outcome? Especially when God selected this particular universe from an infinite number of alternatives. This universe, where I would reach the inevitable and logical conclusion that such a being is impossible, not to mention terrifying.

God knows who will go to hell, and He could force every single person to repent. But he does not. Why? For reasons known only to Him.

So God chooses not to save those people in Hell because that would somehow interfere with free will, to spite the “fact” he is omniscient and knows every decision anyone has or will make until the end of time.

No one comes to Christ against their own will. Everyone who rejects him does so willingly.

Read those two sentences above again. Now again. Let it sink in. So is it only those people who know about Christ and willingly rejecting him who are destined for Hell? What about those billions who have never even heard the name of Jesus, or the millions of babies who die before being giving the chance to accept Jesus into their hearts, or have in thrust upon them in a baptism? How is this fair to those of us who have honestly evaluated the evidence for Christ (or any other prophet) and found it lacking? My head just exploded, but I suppose I should become familiar with that sensation now given where I am headed according to Marcus.

If you interviews anyone in hell and tell them that all they have to do is serve God and they can get out of hell, they will refuse and walk right back into hell. Think I’m wrong?

Hell yes! Who wants to have white hot pokers shoved into their eyes and their intestines gnawed by rats? This really shits me – how can you have a just and perfect loving god who allows such things?

Let me give you a quick parallel: I have two beautiful daughters who want to play on the busy road outside. Now I love my kids, but I cannot interfere with their free will. I know playing on the road is dangerous and there is a good chance they will be badly injured or killed if they go out there, but what can I do? Is it their fault when they are struck by a truck and spread all over the bitumen?

Well, you are making the same stupid decision today if you reject Jesus.

There are many religions in the world today (not to mention now dead religions) which threaten eternal damnation for those who are foolish enough to reject their doctrines. The two most prevalent modern examples are Christianity and Islam, but it’s by no means limited to these two. If I am to avoid timeless suffering I must be sure of the faith I select, since both renditions of God are quite intolerant of disbelief.

Without substantiating your claim that Jesus is the only way to attain access to Heaven, then I can simple assert that you are making the same stupid decision if you reject the teachings of the final prophet of Allah. Your empty threats mean nothing without proving your case first. The scare tactics you have demonstrated here may have worked in the dark ages, but the church and your antiquated theology can no longer stand the education and rational thinking modern society has attained – fighting religion at every stage.

You silly religion will be thrown on the scrape heap of history, like all those that came before it.

UPDATE: Marcus has responded here.Similar Posts:

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• …and around we go.
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• Unravelling Twisty’s logic

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