Jack and Jill Politics - Latest Comments

Re: Let’s Talk about the “I” Word

blksista — Mon, 06 Jul 2009 10:05:01 -0000

No. Clooney is an example, but right now, the only example.

That's one reason why there were men's clubs. They weren't just for the married and powerful guys. There were suites there for men who had no 'residence,' with maid service and room service.

I had a great uncle who was a gambler, traveled on the racehorse circuit helping to keep horses (old days, folks), and lived alone, although he wasn't completely without female companionship. He just never got married or had a long-term relationship with a woman. Remembering hard times had something to do with it as well.

Re: Monday Open Thread

mon_dieu_ishmael — Mon, 06 Jul 2009 10:00:22 -0000

From Bob Seger: Fire Down Below

Here comes old Rosie she's looking mighty fine
Here comes hot Nancy she's steppin' right on time
There go the street lights bringin on the night
Here come the men faces hidden from the light
All through the shadows they come and they go
With only one thing in common
They got the fire down below

Here comes the rich man in his big long limousine
Here comes the poor man all you got to have is green
Here comes the banker and the lawyer and the cop
One thing for certain it ain't never gonna stop
When it all gets too heavy
That's when they come and go
With only one thing in common
They got the fire down below

It happens out in Vegas happens in Moline
On the blue blood streets of Boston
Up in Berkeley and out in Queens
And it went on yesterday and it's going on tonight
Somewhere there's somebody ain't treatin' somebody right

Re: Monday Open Thread

isonprize — Mon, 06 Jul 2009 09:58:51 -0000

What? You ain't know? It's exclusive to CNN because they SAY it's exclusive. Stop playin'...LOLOL

Re: Let’s Talk about the “I” Word

isonprize — Mon, 06 Jul 2009 09:49:33 -0000

You mean George Clooney? a confirmed bachelor. Can't think of a man of color... Can you?

Re: Let’s Talk about the “I” Word

heartsandflowers — Mon, 06 Jul 2009 09:48:50 -0000

Thanks for this, CPL. It was a nice post!

Bottom line is people lack discipline, self-control, values and morals. The end.

Re: Let’s Talk about the “I” Word

isonprize — Mon, 06 Jul 2009 09:42:44 -0000

Isn't that a cop out? Does a man let 'his woman' flirt with another man when he's out of town on business? Or does she do it because she wants to?

Does a wife let her husband have sex with the secretary at lunch? Or does do it because he wants to?

Re: Let’s Talk about the “I” Word

eclecticbrotha — Mon, 06 Jul 2009 09:41:53 -0000

Not necessarily.

Re: Monday Open Thread

heartsandflowers — Mon, 06 Jul 2009 09:41:32 -0000

What CNN exclusive? It was available on U-Stream first. Regardless wasn't it simply amazing?

Today's Conversation: Weak-Willed Men & What the Death of Steve McNair Teaches Us

If some will listen that is....

http://tinyurl.com/l5kog8

Re: Monday Open Thread

mon_dieu_ishmael — Mon, 06 Jul 2009 09:38:44 -0000

Paying for universal healthcare:
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/...
note that this option was first explored by the Bush-2 administration.

Re: Let’s Talk about the “I” Word

blksista — Mon, 06 Jul 2009 09:26:51 -0000

You know what's missing out of American life these days? Guys who were just single and straight, and never got married, except perhaps to their jobs and their way of living.

They had their own income, their own women, and the guys that they would always look up and have guy fun with, even when traveling. They never got a long-standing relationship with a woman, unless they were forced to.

These days, a guy who isn't married or with a woman in a long-standing relationship is gay. Which is stupid. It doesn't leave men to find any middle ground.

I just wish that those men who creep around would just get divorced to their "ball and chain," and just say that they're just not into marriage.

Re: Let’s Talk about the “I” Word

ChrisChambers — Mon, 06 Jul 2009 09:25:42 -0000

We cheat NOT because we can. We cheat because our spouses/partners/f-buddies let us.

Re: Monday Open Thread

RobM — Mon, 06 Jul 2009 09:14:11 -0000

People are pissed around the world about the actions of their politicians. It hasn't hit here yet to the extent it has in Europe and Iran. In England the abuse of expense accounts has squatters in the homes of members of Parliament.(Squatting in abandoned buildings is big in Philly).

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/ar...

Re: Monday Open Thread

DNLee — Mon, 06 Jul 2009 08:34:09 -0000

happy monday.
My bid to blog my way to Antarctica is doing great. I'm number 15! Thanks for the twitter support, Jill. I hope your readers feel so incline to help send this science blogger to Antarctica to share all adventures with them http://www.tinyurl.com/DNLee-SouthPole
Check out my voting page and vote for me.

Re: Let’s Talk about the “I” Word

dcrockett17 — Mon, 06 Jul 2009 08:26:15 -0000

If memory serves, I saw a woman on the Today Show promoting her study of infidelity, which I believe focused on western, industrialized countries (US, Latin America, Europe). I never caught the name of the author or study. She said that her data indicated that there wasn't much difference in the amount of infidelity from one country to the next. What differed was the reaction to infidelity, where people from the U.S. were much more likely to end the relationship than any other country. She attributes this to our Puritan/Calvanist cultural heritage--a heritage clearly on display in this discussion--that involves much more romantic notions of marriage than other places.

I suspect infidelity is like any other form of "cheating" where opportunity makes the thief. That doesn't mean that *everyone* with opportunity cheats. Rather, more opportunity (e.g., increased travel, working longer hours, larger social networks, more private communication vehicles, etc.) simply increases the probability of cheating. Again, these things don't make someone cheat. But, I don't by this notion that groups of people (e.g., men, wealthy, poor, religious, non-religious, etc.) differ systematically in their "moral fiber" or in the seriousness of their marital vows. We often compare ourselves to previous generations of supposedly tougher moral makeup. But go back and look at the cultural products they made. Notice how rampant infidelity and divorce are in the old black and white films. Go listen to the blues. As the late, great Buck O'Neil has said about baseball players using steroids: "If we had access to the stuff we'd have used it too."

Much of the discussion to this point is about gender roles and infidelity. I suspect that the gender roles that our culture assigns us, and that we reinforce through our own behavior, also account for a lot of the differences between men's and women's propensity toward infidelity beyond simple opportunity structure. Almost all of women's cultural status accrues to the roles of mother and wife. Although more status comes to women for their professional accomplishments than in previous generations, even that is clearly mediated by the more traditional roles. That is, a professional-only woman certainly is not granted the same cultural status as a traditional wife/mother who is not in the paid labor force (no matter what they say on Fox News). And in both cases very little status accrues to women as sexual beings outside the roles of wife and mother. (If you doubt this, talk to any US teenager who lives with both parents. If you can get them to acknowledge that they weren't immaculately conceived, you'll find it's much easier for them to see/talk about dad's sexual identity than mom's.) In sharp contrast, men still have a good bit of status that accrues to their sexual identity. A mistress, especially a young one, clearly signals this. It's one major reason that so many men are indiscreet with affairs. (The payoff is in the status more than the sex.) On the flip side, when men reach an age when they can no longer be sexually active--an age increasingly delayed by performance-enhancing drugs--they become honorary women. Culturally, that's when we allow them to be openly dirty old men, when their potency is nil.

Re: Let’s Talk about the “I” Word

Mythe — Mon, 06 Jul 2009 07:35:54 -0000

I think this issue may be more easily pinpointed if it were reversed. What are the qualitied of those limited number of men who DO NOT cheat. The reasons men do cheat are as long as you can list with none being justifiably acceptable.
The men I know who DO NOT cheat: have values and take them seriously; came from "function" upbringing in families; they consciously make the choice not to cheat; are committed types of human beings to everything in life including vows

Men who cheat do so because they can, generally because they have no values that matter to them that keep them from cheating. Often that firm foundation they were brought up in falters; flesh is weak. Women make it easy for men to cheat out of their desperation to have someone, anyone. Men can't do anything that women won't let them do (period).

Re: Monday Open Thread

zackboston — Mon, 06 Jul 2009 07:34:35 -0000

I always enjoy Grace Lee Boggs weekly column from Detroit. She's one of my personal sheroes!

This week she wrote about a new kind of community organizing that is needed in these troubled times and the "right to the city" and "the city belongs to all of us" movements that are beginning to take across the country.

http://hosted.verticalresponse.com/386635/67464...

This way of organizing builds on but goes beyond the familiar Alinsky model of grassroots organizing.

I spent some time this weekend reading the entire article she recommends (it's 20 pages long) and it was well worth the time invested. For those of you leading community organizing efforts, I highly recommend a looksee.

http://www.onthecommons.org/content.php?id=2399

Re: Afternoon Open Thread

Mythe — Mon, 06 Jul 2009 07:08:40 -0000

That's what I thought. Men lie and cheat. Had it not been for the accident and everything coming to light, he would have continued to twist her mind for as long as she didnt find out. This is so sad. He had 4 boys and how is his wife gonna explain this to the 5 year old son, tell me? He was still in love with his wife and making love to her daily. She may or may not have known what was going on. Neither one of them thought that it would come to this though. That one unguarded moment can change a life forever.

Re: Sunday Open Thread

Micheline — Mon, 06 Jul 2009 07:03:44 -0000

Got it from Atrios.

Re: Afternoon Open Thread

Micheline — Mon, 06 Jul 2009 06:50:54 -0000

Remember he needed 60 votes whenever a bill increases the deficit, so he had to deal with the Republicans.

Re: Let’s Talk about the “I” Word

Amaya — Mon, 06 Jul 2009 02:30:16 -0000

I guess it depends on how one defines 'whim'. I don't think anyone is supposed to be discarded on a whim, in theory, though the practice is obviously the opposite. If a woman is not procreating, she is 'cursed' -- that is her one true value in many societies eyes, right? Her other value is how much money you can make off her family connections. But I don't know.

Off topic, remember when being a 'divorcee' was something titillating, sexy and upper class? At least, I do, right until the mid80s. Now, it seems like everyone is divorced, big whoop.

Famous Polyandry:
1) certain Mongolians (one woman, two husbands - usually brothers)
2) matriarchal polynesians (one woman, many lovers, woman's brothers are more important male role models in a child's life than the child's sperm donor)
3) american hippie communes

Famous Polyandry, individual division, no shame or secrets:
1) Cleopatra (her brother, Julius Caesar, Mark Antony; serial monogamy, yes -- but at least she was allowed it)
2) Empress Wu?
3) Nina Hartley

Honorable Mention -- the Opposites:
1) OT Jews -- bedding one's dead husband's brother to procreate in the dead husband's name? -- a woman's value is as a uterus for the sake of the group -- as opposed to
2) Purdah (and not just in India) -- once the husband is dead, wifey dies, too -- a woman's value is as a vagina for the sake of the individual.

Re: Let’s Talk about the “I” Word

Amaya — Mon, 06 Jul 2009 02:09:05 -0000

Why get married? There's more to marriage than love. How many women back in the day got married, not because of a man himself, but because of the promise of having a baby of their own? Or because they wanted that man's status? The man could do whatever he wanted as long as at the end of the day she was the Official Girl. She'd play the 'saint/Jackie' role.

Or she'd play the Mrs. Strom Thurmond/Daughter of Gotti role (getting pregnant by other guys, while the husband got to pretend his virility was still 'all that'). She would do whatever she wanted, too, as long as at the end of the day she kept up her end of the 'You're My Official Man' bargain.

Humans are not monogamous by nature. It takes work. A lot of work. God bless everyone who works at it (those who haven't been tempted by opportunity don't count).

Re: Let’s Talk about the “I” Word

Amaya — Mon, 06 Jul 2009 01:58:53 -0000

My opinion only, flamesuit on: There's infidelity, and there's open marriages. A spouse, male or female, who looks the other way while their significant other is getting some on the side is not being cheated on. They are a participant in a form of open marriage, whether they can live with the truth or not.

They are not a victim.

Re: Let’s Talk about the “I” Word

evita — Mon, 06 Jul 2009 01:00:37 -0000

I believe there are lots of people who want to be married but do not want to be without sex or romance- which is the case for MANY marriages (kids, stress, money, unresolved relationship baggage.)

Death also can mean two bullets to the side of the head that is if you F with the wrong chick...

Re: Let’s Talk about the “I” Word

Angelar — Mon, 06 Jul 2009 00:32:40 -0000

If you know the answer dont ask the question.

Re: Let’s Talk about the “I” Word

Angelar — Mon, 06 Jul 2009 00:24:58 -0000

you are assuming that a person who is married decides from "day one" he/she wants to "fool around"

rikyrah...you must be a perfect person..

because you are perfect, I want to meet you with my husband and children

how soon can we do this?