Karl Havard ~ Cathartic Comment:

Impact of #SocialMedia & Technology on the Consumer Journey

2012-02-04T10:03:00.001Z

Below are the slides presented at the recent digital conference for the restaurant and leisure industry at the Soho House Hotel, organised by Aardvark Media.The social consumer journey

View more presentations from Karl Havard

#Google Wallet & iPhone 5: Is this the end of "Pretty Green"?

2012-02-01T10:28:00.004Z

Pretty Green, a song by The Jam about money (£1 notes used to be green...in case you've forgotten), lost some literal relevance when the £1 coin was introduced, but are we now witnessing the end of all physical tender? Take a look at the videos below and it would indicate this is a possibility. Mobiles and NFC and one touch payment...What will we put in the Juke Box?

#Google's "Engineering Your Business for Digital Event"

2012-01-31T19:44:00.002Z

I was invited to Google's "Engineering Your Business for Digital Event" at Google's London HQ. Do you know they have lilos on the ceiling there? Is that a metaphor for something? They even gave me a bottle of Heineken; I was looking forward to hearing about the very latest, insightful stuff, which Google tends to deliver.

I quickly learnt this was actually an IDM gig (#IDMDigital), but that was ok. It was interesting to see a good few IDM tutors are actually fellow colleagues from econsultancy. However, the guest speaker was Richard Hartigan, Industry Manager Technology, Google and he gave a really interesting presentation looking at the last 10 years online. A summary of stats he shared are below:

Lilo on the ceiling

Ebay: "One mobile transaction per second"
Douglas Engelbart invented the mouse
2002: Gareth Gates was the most searched for male; Las Kethcup was the biggest song!
2002: Colour by Nokia was new to mobile.
2002 to 2012: Google home page remains the same, but search results are far more visual, location based, commercial, more recent and "more creative"
2011 the world population reached 7bn people; Android activation rate is 3 times faster than the current global birth rate
1 in 4 searches on an Android smartphone are voice searches
1 in 5 searches are from a mobile device
Siri Demo "tell me the time of my next meeting" resulted in playing songs by Ronan Keating
The "Smart Revolution" makes relevant advertising more complex
YouTube is the second biggest search engine
Ebay sell 2,000 cars a week via their mobile app
Personal opinion: 2002 to 2012 the Blackberry device hasn't changed much!
"Mobile is the Key": Watch out for "Google Spots" NFC purchasing, turning your phone into a wallet.... a "Google Wallet"
San Francisco banned Yellow pages in 2011
9,000 tweets a second in 2012
4 Elements of Ecommerce Excellence: Attribution, Conversion Econometrics, Multichannel

The last point was really emphasised by Richard, and the fact the Google are passionate about data and they use it, and will continue to use it, to make all their decisions.

And finally...Google data shows the colour blue increases click through significantly.

However, my personal take is, that the data may be accurate, but isn't the default colour for a hyperlink blue? Anyway, an interesting evening.

Bain: Putting #SocialMedia to Work.

2012-01-29T11:58:00.000Z

A well researched article, in the context of the consumer journey. If it were to appear on the Antiques Roadshow, it would fetch a much higher value than a lot of the other such related documents floating around. Definitely worth the read and I've highlighted what I think are the most pertinent points. Bain Brief: Putting social media to work

View more documents from Karl Havard.

I'm NOT the Mayor of anywhere!!! #SocialMedia

2012-01-18T18:00:00.000Z

Allegedly, it takes 21 days to break a habit. We're nearly three weeks into 2012 and as I promised myself, I've stopped using some elements of nonsensical social media.

Despite the occasional emails telling me I've been "Ousted", with terms such as "Tragedy" and "Egad", as Mayor from many interesting places, including train stations, cricket grounds and pubs, I've managed to let go. It feels good.

Even the odd "Good News" and "Woot" regarding friend requests have been ignored (apologies).

And like most people who "kick the habit" off some sort or other, I now look on with unsubstantiated smug amusement at those poor souls checking in, vying to become "Mayor". Will they ever learn?!

I appreciate there is irony of this post, as I'm writing about Foursquare, but sometimes you have to talk about it to...move on. [therapy] I'm not a saddo, honest.

The Customer Journey: Why the “theorists” have got it wrong.

2012-01-03T13:30:00.000Z

The customer journey, the relationship and experience between people and brands, has been the subject of much theorising for some time. There are a number of cognitive models, outlining the thought process people undertake; most of which are quite linear and logical. The vast majority of these stop at the point of purchase. Which by definition, cannot be “customer journeys”; isn’t a “customer” someone who has already purchased? Then there are some, and credit to them, which go beyond purchase and introduce the concept of the loyalty loop. It is perceived that people will remain loyal if they have a great post purchase experience with the product, offering and brand interaction. Which of course makes complete sense….as do all the descriptions and commentary based around these models. Some of which are illustrated below:

GfK's Funnel; McKinsey's Loyalty Loop; and Harvard's Loyalty Loop: (looking spookily similar to McKinsey's)

Unfortunately, they are all wrong. They completely over simplify people’s individual thought process, and, somewhat arrogantly, treat people as non-emotive robots or automatons making very logical decisions in isolation of others. Theoretically, they seem to make complete sense, but in reality it’s not the case.

When you throw in real people into the mix, like you and I, the dynamics change. We’re unique individuals right? We’re one of a kind. We have personality, we’re influenced by past experiences and the people we mix with; we make our own decisions…..we don’t follow logical paths. How dare they even think this!

Example: Why am I made to queue outside a shop by my eldest daughter for at least 20 minutes; to be greeted by two ripped male Adonis models and enter a store where the lights are so dim you can’t really see what’s on sale? Then spend at least another 30 minutes wandering around, observing that my daughter is looking at everyone else, instead of the clothes. Due to my pestering and encouragement of my daughter to finally make a decision (because I’m getting a little frustrated by this point) we pick up an item of clothing, which she barely spends 30 seconds looking at. It’s got the logo, the brand…it’ll do. And who is the customer? I’m the person who pays, yet it’s my daughter who has become absorbed by this whole thing. She’s been influenced by others, and in turn has “influenced” me…somehow.

Where does this play out in the models illustrated above? It doesn't.

Theory would say, waiting is bad, and not showing the products in a decent enough environment is not a good idea either. It’s a poor experience for the consumer. But practically, this works really well for….Hollister. They have recognised the key influencers along the customer journey are not just the clothes (the things people exchange cash for…where they make their money), they have recognised that their brand, which is a badge, means something to people and those who have it on show. It’s a common bond of a micro community…but probably not so micro these days….which may mean it may not be so cool in the future. Being over popular can serve to be a downfall too.

This dynamic is all about the influence of others, being part, or more accurately, aspiring to be part of a “cool” group or micro-social community. It’s about identity, how you want to be seen and the recognition from others that comes with this. If I can make a slight indulgence at this point, The Mods in the sixties had this down to a fine art and subsequent sub-cultures have followed a very similar dynamic. Being part of such a group was everything to the people involved; achieving a level of status and recognition gave them even more kudos. Being a “ticket” is one thing, but everyone wanted to be a “face”!

So, doesn’t it make sense to put people at the heart of every customer journey framework? We need to create one, which caters for the influence of others at every stage of the journey – pre and post sale. It’s time to put the customer back into the customer journey. It is essential to know exactly who the people are you wish to engage with; what they are doing and the reasons why they behave this way. Only then can you create a communications framework that resonates with the right people, at the right time and in the right places.

People are unique individuals and behave differently to each other.
They are motivated and influenced by many differing factors.
Fellow consumers influence other individual’s own unique journey. The level of influence sometimes outweighs that of the brand itself.
Cognitive thought process from awareness through consideration to commitment seem rational. But, the pace of travelling through these stages and the influence others have are sometimes overlooked. Not everyone spends time researching, many act on impulse; some purchases are habitual, it all depends on the mind-set of the individual concerned.
The plethora of communication channels now available has caused people to change their behaviour significantly. Some consume content via multiple channels at the same time; some are very heavy social web users; others shy away from the latest technology and would be considered more “traditional”. The simple fact is, the paradox of choice means people will choose what is right for them and it could be different every single time they embark on a journey.
The various stages of Awareness through to Advocacy are mapped around the people. This non-linear approach caters for sector cross over; i.e. The amplification of customer advocacy to create awareness, interest and even conversion; or for the more impulsive enable to move quickly from awareness to conversion and from suspect through to customer.

This is a base framework with which businesses can map their consumer centric engagement around. It’s real. It works.

2012 Resolution: Giving up pointless #SocialMedia

2011-12-29T16:52:00.001Z

One of the most precious commodities we have is, time. It's down to us to decide how we use it, so we can get the most out of life. As 2011 draws to an end, and like the end of most previous years, it's time to reflect and evaluate a few things. Having done so, and thought about the big things, there remains a niggly little thorn in my side. It has become apparent that I have wasted an enormous amount of time on certain social media applications. In my opinion, the social web should enhance our lives and compliment our behaviours, help us communicate better (receive and transmit) with others. It shouldn't be used to inflate our egos, follow the latest social trends just for the hell of it, or worse still, detrimentally impact what we would normally do.

Therefore, as one of my smaller New Year's resolutions, I will be dumping some unnecessary social web applications.

First to go is Delicious and other such bookmarking sites; I'm not and SEO type and have no personal need for this type of thing. It suits some, but not me.
Second are the geo-location apps. I dumped Scavenger and Gowalla a while ago; I've not used Facebook Places; yet persisted with Foursquare. I checked that I had joined Foursquare at the end of 2009, I've amassed 21 badges, 13 Mayorships and checked-in 1,382 times. Why?! Businesses and brands have not offered any incentive (most don't get it); and I'm passed the age of "sticker charts" to stimulate my intrinsic motivators.
Thirdly, and whilst we're on the motivational, ego, status thing; Klout can go and whistle. I'm no longer going to check my score (their definition of "influence" needs some review), I don't want perks and I am not a "Do you know who I am?" type either.
Other social media in the pending tray, awaiting the bin are Posterous (lost it's way), LastFM (auto scrobbling only) and FriendFeed (it's stayed the same for the last three years). Facebook specifically, and in my opinion, is one to now be very, very careful of. My (and your) personal data is being stored, and even though privacy settings may disable visibility of your personal thoughts, desires and pictures being shared with the outside world, they will still reside on a database somewhere, probably Palo Alto. You won't find me creating a timeline....and I'm not letting my daughters near it....despite their pleading.

13 Mayorships up for grabs, including ASOS, Northants County Cricket Club, Northampton Train Station and
The Oooloo!

However, there are some social web applications which do enhance my life and make communications much easier. Google have made, and continue to make, some great improvements and I'll continue to use Blogger, Google+ and YouTube. I can hear what some of you maybe saying about data and Google. However, I am pretty careful on what personal info' I place on the web, and rightly or wrongly, I have a higher degree of trust with them.

Twitter stays, purely for consumption of real-time info, and for conversation when it's necessary....not for transmit purposes. Zeebox stays, because it enhances TV viewing; Slideshare too, for sharing and downloading quality information in presentation format; LinkedIn for business contacts; Instagram for ease of sharing pictures and Twitterfeed to link everything up.

There you go. That felt better just writing it down.

Why walk when you can run?

2011-12-27T10:54:00.000Z

Competing in Tough Guy

To cut a long story short (in the words of Spandau Ballet) about 18 months ago I lost the ability to run properly. It was a weird feeling. My brain was saying one thing, but my legs were doing another... the best way to describe it was an involuntary mimicking of a string puppet; even walking felt odd. I could now imagine what it felt like to be Troy Tempest.

Having been checked over, undertaken a number of co-ordination tests, X-Rays and MRI scans it would appear I had a condition called "Myelopathy". The cause of which is usually old age, but still being eligible to be a member of any boy band around today, this wouldn't be true for myself. The condition has been caused by a little bit of excessive wear and tear from silly sports pursuits over the years. The scans showed the spinal cord in my neck looking a bit like a string of sausages, with three vertebrae applying pressure due to scar tissue....potential over repair of previous damage.

I've always tried to push the physical limits (not sure why, I'm sure there is some deep rooted psychological reason from my childhood), from my time in the British Army, to other such pursuits like competing in Tough Guy competitions 5 years running. So when the specialist said, 18 months ago, that I should take it easy and consider surgery to "shave the bones" in my neck, I didn't really hear him properly. He also said that this condition could not improve without surgery.

The Tiny Workmen

In my opinion, professionals who work in hospitals, as well as doing fantastic work, live in a world of trying to find things wrong with people; sometimes offering extreme "solutions". Having seen the images of my MRI scans and noticed a slight improvement in my co-ordination, I was convinced I could fix this myself. Mentally, I started to visualise tiny workmen scaling up and down the inside of my neck polishing the bones (weird, I know) and physically, made a point of walking everywhere I could, typically covering around 8 miles a day. I also read somewhere, that apart from your teeth, every cell in the human body is replaced during a 2 year period. True or not, this gave me the belief that "damaged" cells could be replaced with good ones.

Troy Tempest

Over time, and little by little, I could feel my co-ordination coming back, to the point where I could start to race my children again. Today, as I write this, it does feel as if I'm very much back to normal. I appreciate, I can't go as mad as I used to, but I'm now running 3 miles every other day and feel in control of my legs (goodbye Troy Tempest). Having thought that this would not be possible, I very much welcome the pain of burning lungs and aching legs with a massive smile on my face.

Most importantly, I can once again overtake my children and whoop them all on the XBox Kinect...but I know this time window is limited, as they are growing up very quickly, so I'm making the most of it!

I'm not entirely sure why I've written this post, other than feeling the need to document it somewhere. I'm setting myself the challenge of entering Tough Guy 2013 and appreciate I will not retain my "Front Squad" status, but back as a "WobbleMucker". That's ok, completion in under 2 hours would be good. Who's with me?!

@SaveMe4Later: Clever concept.

2011-12-20T12:33:00.001Z

Actually starting to see the logo on various Tube ads; clever concept....dodgy tune though.

#ZeeBox: The Dual Screen Catalyst

2011-12-19T23:53:00.002Z

If you tweet and watch TV, then you need ZeeBox. It enables conversation and alternative points of view, whilst watching the various programmes across all channels. It also provides stats on popularity and tags on key topics. The smart TV channels will embrace this completely as it is the perfect social companion to TV. It also has a ZeeBox App.

A reappraisal of Nokia & Windows? #Lumia

2011-12-19T12:10:00.001Z

This is very cool. I have no idea who "Dead Mau5" is (he looks like someone with a funny hat on, who plays records), but having seen this and also had the chance to play with the Lumia, it has caused me to look outside the Apple box. If it was easy to transfer all the music, video, and apps from the iPhone, I'd probably switch.

#End7 Diseases: Why wouldn't you donate 50p?

2011-12-08T10:26:00.001Z

This video speaks for itself.

Romance alive and kicking in #SocialMedia: Adam proposes to Lucy

2011-11-07T17:40:00.001Z

Now, I'd probably not be classed as the most romantic person in the world, probably not even in the top 50%...but I know a chap who is. Adam King, who I've worked with a few years ago, and who I now class as a friend pulled off this amazing marriage proposal. His company, King & Allen also makes fantastic suits!

Presentation: #Socon2011 The Social Consumer Journey

2011-10-20T20:49:00.001+01:00

Putting the consumer back into the consumer journey...that's what businesses need to do. Logical purchase paths may seem sensible, but human emotion, identity and behaviour makes us all diferent, and we will choose the journey that is right for us....thank you very much.

Below are the slides I presented at Socon2011 today. I hope they are of use to someone out there. (All ten of you that read this blog!)

#Socon2011 The Social Consumer Journey: Measuring The Impact

View more presentations from Karl Havard

#Channel4 @MaryPortas & #QueenofFrocks Trump the #BBC on Twitter

2011-10-04T23:19:00.001+01:00

You wait ages for a bus and three come along at the same time; and I break the world record for the most hashtags in a blog title. The previous post (#BBC v #ITV) comparing BBC's approach to stimulating a conversation on Twitter, which is far better than ITV's, in my humble opinion, was trumped by Channel4.
Not only do they offer the hashtag #QueenofFrocks to facilitate a discussion amongst the viewers about the programmer, they also include @MaryPortas Twitter id too. Here's hoping she is proactively engaged on Twitter during the airing of the show. I do like her, so I'm sure she is.

#BBC v #ITV Who's got the right approach to Twitter

2011-10-03T08:00:00.001+01:00

Two top quality shows, in my eyes, but which channel has the right approach to Twitter? As you can see by the image above; ITV (Celebrity Juice) invited viewers to communicate on Twitter using the @CelebJuice Twitter id; whereas BBC invite people to communicate using a hashtag.

Some things to consider:

These programmes are recorded a couple of days before airing
The BBC recognise that using a hashtag for "Have I Got News For You", people can tweet about the show with each other. They've facilitated a conversation.
ITV have invited people to follow @CelebJuice and attempt to communicate directly with that Twitter id. For this to work, they need to have someone manage the Twitter account at the time of airing. Conversation is not amongst the viewers, it is directly with @CelebJuice. Many who try, will be disappinted.

BBC win hands down. It maybe wise for ITV to make a slight amend, change @ to #.

Advocacy: Authentic? Propaganda? Or Lies, Damn Lies?

2011-09-25T17:33:00.001+01:00

The role of advocacy has always played a key part in helping people make more informed decisions. Its influence is usually much stronger than brand generated marketing messages, especially when you are a recipient of positive word of mouth from a trusted source, such as a friend, colleague or family member. Google recently published their "Zero Moment of Truth" (ZMOT) document, which describes post stimulus behaviour, of people searching online within forums and social sites for "warts 'n' all" feedback on products and services. The initial "stimulus", which is typically traditional marketing, triggers the ZMOT behaviour for people who want to hear honest feedback from others who have had direct product experience.
This is very natural and logical behaviour, especially by people who like to weigh up their options before committing, but it's not new. The web, with all its social commentary and accessibility via mobile devices, just makes this whole research process much easier and faster.
Brands and businesses recognise the power of advocacy, which is why some are beginning to participate in less than ethical behaviour.
There are now sites out there such as Fiverr and Amazon's MTurk where people are offering to undertake certain low effort tasks for small sums of money. Some are quite humourous, some a bit bizarre, some genuine, but others are less ethical. Some businesses are paying them for...call it "consumer review prostitution". Unfortunately, there are also members of the blogger community, thankfully a minority, who participate in such behaviour too.
Then, there are those reviews out there which have been written by the brands, or brand agencies themselves...no matter how well these may have been written, there is usually something about them which sticks out like a sore thumb. The comments are sometimes out of context; or from a new member to a forum, or one who only pops up to talk about a specific brand/product. These are usually outed very quickly and the Money Saving Expert community are the masters at this. What may have seemed to be a good idea to post a positive brand comment in a forum, can quickly turn into a nightmare brand reputation issue.
Tripadvisor have always suffered from such activity and are now under the microscope again. A recent article in The Daily Mail quoted Chris Emmins of Kwickchex, claiming that up to 5 million reviews could be considered fake.
People aren't stupid. Genuine advocacy is easily recognised and it stems from people having a great experience with the brand, whether this is from actual product usage, a recipient of great service or from simple glowing admiration of what a brand stands for. Likewise, "fake advocacy" can be spotted and brands/businesses should beware, "dabbling" in positive word of mouth, without foundation, will damage consumer brand trust and produce the opposite effect. Negativity tends to spread faster.
As this consumer behaviour, to research forums and social platforms for genuine opinion, is now becoming a much more influential part of the customer journey, brands and businesses should think twice before considering participating in such behaviour. Concentrate on providing consumers with a great experience at every touchpoint of their journey, and advocacy will naturally follow.

Heard of ZMOT? #Google's Zero Moment of Truth

2011-09-13T17:44:00.000+01:00

It may be obvious to us "digital natives" (a term which probably makes you cringe), but to business it may not be so. This being, the behaviour many of us now adopt when being made aware of something. We pick up on a "stimulus" which captures our attention and pricks our curiosity; we then reach for the nearest Internet device and research it further. Google believe this action "ZMOT" is the most influential in our purchasing behaviour. If you have some time to spare, it's worth reading the "book" they have put together. Or if you have less time....watch the video.

Growth of #Socialmedia

2011-09-01T11:51:00.000+01:00

Source: The Growth of Social Media: An Infographic

The #SocialMedia Brandsphere: I need some help here!

2011-08-30T17:50:00.000+01:00

A friend and colleague of mine, @TonyClement, brought the following diagram to my attention a couple of weeks ago. It's been produced by Brian Solis and JESS3, who have been creating some really useful infographics and such recently. I read and reread the description, twisted and turned the diagram every which way, but I'm not sure what it's telling me. Of course, I may be being totally thick here. It looks a little over complicated and is completely brand centric, and hence I'm struggling. Any enlightenment is most welcome.

Wordle.net: A perfect conversation stimulator

2011-06-08T17:57:00.000+01:00

I expect many of you are familiar with wordle.net, the online utility that enables you to download a document, point it to a feed or even enter the name of a Delicious user and hey presto out pops a nice word cloud....one which you can edit from a font, layout and colour perspective. It's free, quick and fun.
The output never ceases to surprise and stimulate conversation. In fact, if you ever need to engage an audience during a presentation, especially if they are extremely interested in what is being said about them or their product, running a string of buzz monitoring through wordle is always worthwhile. The context of conversation may not be obvious, but the content is.
Being slightly egotistical, I ran this blog through it to see what popped out, quite ironically "Analogue" came out on top. (Note to self: should have removed "permalink")

Stewart Lee, The BBC and #SocialMedia

2011-05-23T18:01:00.000+01:00

Spotted by @NickFletcher, it is so spookily accurate that I had to post it. Stewart Lee is being presented a "social strategy" around his TV programme, the words, phrases and tone of voice are spot on. Stewart asks all the right questions and receives the answers you would expect from those attempting to convince him he needs to go "social".

Facebook Social Plugins: What do they do? [Infographic] by @KarlHavard

2011-05-02T18:07:00.000+01:00

Thought I'd add my own "infographic" to the plethora of those out there, but I'm hoping this one is quite informative and offers some value. It's not immediately obvious what the Facebook social plugins offer and how they work, this hopefully sheds a little light on the subject.

Our brainwaves are #analogue, so will we become incompatible with #digital technology?

2011-04-22T18:34:00.000+01:00

In the UK, analogue TV ceased to exist at the end of March 2011 and digital TV was formally phased in. Good old analogue technology is disappearing and being replaced by digital at every turn, apparently this is a good thing. However, there is one exception, us humans; believe it or not, we are analogue beings.

If you're non-technically minded, analogue signals are a waveform which vary in frequency (cycles per second or Hertz, one cycle being a wavelength) and vary in amplitude (strength of cycle); whereas digital is a binary pulse "waveform". They are completely incompatible with each other, hence the requirement of a "set top box" to convert the digital signal to an analogue one so a picture can be viewed on an old telly (a D to A converter).
If you're a human and speak English you'll be familiar with phrases such as "on the same wavelength", "in tune with each other", "being in sync" and "things resonating with us". That's because all our thoughts and brain activity take place in analogue. Allegedly, each of our thoughts has a different wavelength and there is a theory (written in a number of books of varying credibility) that individuals attract "like-minded" thinkers; people thinking the same things and transmitting and receiving on the same frequency. Thankfully, there is also some scientific proof to all this and about the frequency of our "brainwaves":

Beta: 15Hz to 18Hz and is the frequency associated with problem solving and decision making thoughts.
Alpha: 8Hz to 12 Hz is when we feel calm and the bridge between conscious and sub-conscious.
Theta: 4Hz to 8Hz the transition stage between sleep and being awake.
Delta: 0Hz to 4Hz is either deep sleep or feeling empathy.
There's not a digital bit, byte, hexadecimal 0 to F, or binary 1 or 0 in sight.

So a couple of things struck me:

As a human race, we are developing artificial intelligence using digital technology, that can demonstrate human characteristics of learning, personality and decision making. If we are successful, are we on the verge of developing something that could supersede ourselves; be able to communicate more effectively with each other and therefore make humans obsolete? (Terminator stuff)
Is the human race evolving to learn to communicate digitally? Are we changing the way our brains work? This may explain some personality characteristics of Generation Y such as "text speak" wtf!, other binary language "innit", being social virtually instead of social in the real world and demonstrating that a verbal grunt is in fact a digital pulse.
Will the speed of technology advancement out pace evolution?

I'm obviously talking nonsense, and this is a sign of me getting old, plus having a week in the wilderness, away from computers, may have done something to my own thought process, but writing it down helps me get it off my chest and out of my head.
Note to self: to remain as analogue as possible.

The future of marketing: The underlying message is worth considering

2011-03-12T18:59:00.000Z

This video was produced by PhD for an industry conference to provoke discussion. It has been met by a lot of anti feeling, which you can see on their YouTube channel. However, if you can ignore the stage school cheesiness in the video and focus on the messaging, what is being said is quite true. I would add however, this will most likely happen within 3 to 5 years instead of 10.