mappingmashups Jan 23, 5:36pm Next #geowebchat is tomorrow (Tuesday) 12p PT (20:00 UTC). Topic: geoweb cartography. How is it different? Where is it going? Please RT

bricker 10:33am #geowebchat We know that tech dev ~cont. w/ new devices being released cont. yet human vision remains almost constant (Kirschenbauer 2005).

bricker 10:35am #geowebchat modern #cartography deals with complex process of GI organization, access, display and use…

bricker 10:37am maps not just graphic rep of space, but dynamic portals interconnected, distributed, geo data (MacEachren and Kraak 2001) #geowebchat

Geoteq 10:41am In the future, more detailed maps will be produced by the people themselves. In a network society, companies become platforms. #geowebchat

joeeckert 10:41am look out, @bricker ‘s pregaming! #geowebchat ;)

APHumanGeog 10:43am Maps are like complex allegories or parables…the more you know, the more understanding you can gain. #geowebchat

bricker 10:44am @joeeckert #geowebchat taking the geoweb by storm! :) gotta leave early so I thought I’d start early

Geoteq 10:53am Google-World Bank deal is empowering citizen cartographers or Google is expanding market share w/ commercial interests? #geowebchat

mappingmashups 11:06am Well, check this out, #geowebchat peeps: RT @kelsosCorner: I started a wiki on GitHub for making open source maps: kelso.it/x/1el

Geoteq 11:19am Maps and apps still need to go a long way in terms of accessibility and use interaction. The ease of use is key to revolution. #geowebchat

Geoteq 11:27am A good article 4 #geowebchat today: Mashups, crowdsourcing and their impact on the mapping industry — awe.sm/5e5OJ

joegerlach 11:33am always felt a suspect link between geoweb and participatory politics. The idea of access overwrought? overcoded liberalism? #geowebchat

joeeckert 11:52am @joegerlach maybe you’re just hanging out with too many academics. i think many commercial entities could not care less. #geowebchat

APHumanGeog 11:54am “Can twitter and mapping produce smarter transit routes?” @Geocrusader80 #geowebchat fastcodesign.com/1665884/infogr…

mappingmashups 11:57am Readying for #geowebchat in a few minutes. Topic is broad: “geoweb cartography”. We already have more perspectives than I can count!

joeeckert 11:58am @APHumanGeog saw this too. I’m confused. wouldn’t a high frequency of tweets from a single user be required to map movement? #geowebchat

mappingmashups 12:00pm If you’re new to twitter chats, you must always include “#geowebchat“. Use the reply feature if you can. Helpful tool: TweetChat.com

mappingmashups 12:03pm Welcome everybody! That twitter mapping you guys are talking about also caught my eye. Mapping geoweb data, on the geoweb. #geowebchat

APHumanGeog 12:03pm @joeeckert Problem with point data for linear flow without identified users…make the best with the data available. #geowebchat

mappingmashups 12:04pm The original twitter maps from @enf are here: flickr.com/photos/walking… … includes a bit on methodology, but I want more. #geowebchat

rushgeo 12:07pm @mappingmashups Me too. I’d like to know more about the “trips,” to see if there’s really travel demand being represented. #geowebchat

joeeckert 12:08pm @APHumanGeog eh; i think there’s a point at which honesty trumps “the best we can do” if it’s posited as a means of planning. #geowebchat

Geoteq 12:08pm The point is that the act of mapping is closely related to the type of tool and ease of use it. #geowebchat

joeeckert 12:10pm @APHumanGeog don’t get me wrong, i love a pretty map; i love exploratory work. i am sad when maps lead to misrepresentation. :/ #geowebchat

Geoteq 12:10pm I think the best method and best tool is one that offers ease of use. The easiest, is used. #geowebchat

APHumanGeog 12:12pm @joeeckert It was orginally artistically designed then blog thought of city planning applications. That would change design #geowebchat

bricker 12:13pm @joeeckert @APHumanGeog misrepresentation or misinterpretation? #geowebchat

Geoteq 12:13pm And then the question remains: how to manage the entire amount of data that we have while terms easy to use tools? #geowebchat

Geoteq 12:14pm When we think of Twitter, we’re talking about people connected with some kind of gadget. This is a logic that’s not 4 everyone. #geowebchat

rushgeo 12:16pm @APHumanGeog True. We see a lot of design-based cartography these days. It does start conversations, but not sure about results. #geowebchat

mappingmashups 12:17pm @enf Thanks. Very interesting. We have some curious ppl over at the #geowebchat hashtag discussing your maps right now.

geoparadigm 12:18pm Just catching up on the #geowebchat thread. Discussion in progress.

Geoteq 12:19pm Many of the maps we see are not cartography. Cartography is a semantic side and related to the environment. #geowebchat

DrHG 12:20pm As cultural geographers we often people to map “journeys”, but their maps are often missing from our accounts. Bring back maps #geowebchat

mappingmashups 12:20pm @rushgeo True, lot of design-based carto, but in a sense it’s simply exploratory mapping that’s made public, unlike in past. #geowebchat

Geoteq 12:21pm I think the GeoWeb and Cartography will be integrated when people can understand what they are semantically mapping. #geowebchat

DrHG 12:22pm I met a professor the other day who produced by hand 70 maps for his thesis. Incredible. #geowebchat

Geoteq 12:22pm @bricker I mean by semantics when people can relate what they are mapping to something larger. Do not just get a point, u know? #geowebchat

rushgeo 12:23pm @mappingmashups Definitely better off having it. Maybe we’re in transition & soon designers implement more carto. principles #geowebchat

mappingmashups 12:23pm @Geoteq Maps that aren’t cartography? Hmm. Or are these maps more “viz” and less “communication”? See: e-education.psu.edu/files/geog486/… #geowebchat

joeeckert 12:24pm @DrHG that gives me a heart attack just thinking about it. if we were still hand-drawing maps, i’d never have become a geog’r #geowebchat

rushgeo 12:25pm @mappingmashups Also encouraging to see academic cartographers starting to implement better design and public explorations! #geowebchat

DrHG 12:25pm @Geoteq very interesting point on semantics, partic in citizen science. Collecting/mapping data but what about bigger pic. #geowebchat

APHumanGeog 12:26pm @DrHG A committee member of mine referred to hand-drawn, not to scale as “Cap’n Crunch maps.” I still use that term! #geowebchat

geoparadigm 12:26pm @joeeckert Old cartographers had to be artists; new one’s don’t have to be? #geowebchat

mappingmashups 12:26pm (FYI that visualization/communication cube is from MacEachern. More here: e-education.psu.edu/geog486/book/e… #geowebchat

DrHG 12:27pm @joeeckert I know what you mean. He was mapping 16th century Scotland. “professional cartography standard” .. #geowebchat

mappingmashups 12:28pm @geoparadigm But many people would blame GIS not Geoweb for making non-aesthetic maps possible. #geowebchat

geoparadigm 12:28pm @mappingmashups Blame technology? #geowebchat

Geoteq 12:29pm @DrHG I think we’re not just talking points. We must consider that we are a Network Society. That is, everything is connected. #geowebchat

joeeckert 12:29pm @geoparadigm not sure I’d say all that. my hands are just better with a mouse and keyboard than a pen. there’s still art to it #geowebchat

DrHG 12:29pm Quite a few cultural geographers like to collaborate with artists to produce maps. Uncomfortable #geowebchat @geoparadigm @joeeckert

DrHG 12:30pm @APHumanGeog love it! #geowebchat

mappingmashups 12:30pm @geoparadigm & as mentioned earlier, some neogeo maps are very design-y, w/ artistic skill. Like @enf, the @stamen ppl, etc. #geowebchat

geoparadigm 12:31pm @DrHG @joeeckert Take GIS student created maps to the art department for critique. Can be a valuable learning experience. #geowebchat

DrHG 12:33pm As undergrad in cultural geography, Peter Jackson’s Maps of Meaning was as close to mapping as we got #geowebchat

Geoteq 12:33pm @mappingmashups This problem of representation may be solved if we have tools easier. Accessibility is the name of the game. #geowebchat

mappingmashups 12:33pm @geoparadigm Well, the technol of GIS disembedded cartography from prev system of drawing/repro tech and associated practices. #geowebchat

DrHG 12:34pm @geoparadigm @joeeckert I like the sound of that. Let’s take some maps to human geographers, I think some of us would benefit #geowebchat

rushgeo 12:34pm @geoparadigm Great idea! I’d love for carto students to get better sense for design, but no time to add classes to curriculum #geowebchat

geoparadigm 12:35pm @mappingmashups I agree. I have seen some beautiful web cartography from @stamen. When will joe GIS gain these abilities? #geowebchat

geoparadigm 12:37pm @rushgeo Just looking at good digital cartography and help to develop the eye for good design; design awareness goes a long way. #geowebchat

DrHG 12:38pm The Art of Mapping exhibition … See catalogue www.tagfinearts.com/exhibitions this is the sort of thing cult geogs are into #geowebchat

mappingmashups 12:38pm @geoparadigm But of course you can make pretty, stamen-caliber maps w/ GIS. Some people do it. But using GIS defaults, nope. #geowebchat

Geoteq 12:38pm But what is a beautiful map on the web? A map that contains several elements are easy to interpret and that is actually useful? #geowebchat

joeeckert 12:39pm @DrHG @geoparadigm some of us still consider ourselves human geographers. ;) anyhow, i agree – design gets left by the wayside #geowebchat

mappingmashups 12:40pm @DrHG Nice map art there! “Artsy” maps and “personal” maps often go hand-in-hand, tho they don’t have to. #geowebchat

mappingmashups 12:41pm @DrHG We talked about this in the Oct 21 chat: what’s geoweb’s role for enabling more subjective/personal/imaginative maps? #geowebchat

DrHG 12:42pm Here’s my version of map art ;-) hangs on lounge wall. #geowebchat pic.twitter.com/CenKGq0D

geoparadigm 12:42pm @Geoteq Good question. A successful map is a representation that communicates a clear purpose to an audience, right? #geowebchat

DrHG 12:43pm “@mappingmashups: what’s geoweb’s role for enabling more subjective/personal/imaginative maps? #geowebchat” any ideas?

mappingmashups 12:43pm @Geoteq Beauty is in the eye of the beholder! A beautiful thing isn’t always useful. To some that’s a def’n of art: not useful. #geowebchat

mappingmashups 12:44pm Speaking of @stamen and beautiful or “pretty maps”: prettymaps.stamen.com. Certainly testing limits of usefulness. #geowebchat

DrHG 12:45pm @joeeckert @geoparadigm re: human geographers point. How do you describe your subfield? #geowebchat

joeeckert 12:46pm @Geoteq some find beauty in art, some in utility. not mutually exclusive – but 1 may be more beautiful in a given context #geowebchat

Geoteq 12:46pm @geoparadigm This is the definition for me too. I believe that beauty can be in how information can be clearly disclosed. #geowebchat

sit_down_you 12:47pm @feltron‘s reports have struck a nice balance between usefulness and aesthetics. Maps —> visualization. feltron.com/ar10_07.html #geowebchat

mappingmashups 12:48pm @DrHG Ideas for subjective/personal/imaginative geoweb? Well, now “anyone” can make their own maps of whatever they like… #geowebchat

mappingmashups 12:49pm @DrHG …if they can express their feelings/imagination in points/lines/polygons. And are content w/ cartesian grid of mercator. #geowebchat

joeeckert 12:49pm @DrHG I draw heavily on critical GIS work concerned with social-digital interaction. description depends on who’s listening #geowebchat

GarethEnticott 12:49pm @DrHG I like maps. I like cycling. Together they make GPS art. Here’s one I call ‘the dog’ bikemap.net/route/942510 #geowebchat

Geoteq 12:50pm @geoparadigm Beauty can also b a setting that can offer a unique interpretation, subjective and comprehensive. #geowebchat

mappingmashups 12:50pm @DrHG …otherwise, most geoweb tools are still at disadvantage to old-fashioned cartography. #geowebchat

joeeckert 12:50pm @mappingmashups @DrHG multiple media formats is a good start. the recognition of media as geographic even w/o lat/long is a next #geowebchat

rushgeo 12:51pm @mappingmashups when people geotag emotional stories or multimedia, we get to affective dimension despite point/line/polys #geowebchat

geoparadigm 12:51pm I like things that work well and look good. Function and aesthetics together = usability win. #geowebchat

mappingmashups 12:52pm @sit_down_you Definitely the infovis/datavis field is booming, & influencing neogeographers. Paleogeographers not so much. #geowebchat

joeeckert 12:52pm @DrHG @mappingmashups er…next step. i think qualgis becomes increasingly important as well w/big data sources #geowebchat

mappingmashups 12:54pm @rushgeo Yes, more passive or “frictionless” sharing like geotagging means we can try mapping others’ subjective cartographies. #geowebchat

DrHG 12:54pm @rushgeo @mappingmashups got a good example/link for emotional geotagging. I suppose facebook pics, statuses #geowebchat

mappingmashups 12:54pm @rushgeo …for better or worse. #geowebchat

Geoteq 12:54pm @joeeckert True. The context can define beauty. Good point. #geowebchat

Geoteq 12:55pm @mappingmashups @DrHG It reminds me of the following image: awe.sm/5e5dy #geowebchat

mappingmashups 12:56pm @GarethEnticott @DrHG Yes, GPS art is fascinating, simultaneously personal and impersonal. Have you seen the work by @jwoodx? #geowebchat

rushgeo 12:57pm @DrHG Twitter data is quick & easy, but not deep. Oral histories are tougher, but deeper. #geowebchat

geoparadigm 12:58pm @DrHG Galvanic skin sensors can capture emotion. See Nold’s San Fran Emotion Map bit.ly/kHpYXk #geowebchat

DrHG 12:58pm @rushgeo nice got any examples of this work? #geowebchat

joeeckert 12:59pm @DrHG geolocated tweets. flickr. meetup (depending on type of meetup). also depends on how specific of a geotag you need #geowebchat

DrHG 1:00pm @geoparadigm oh wow. Possibilities are fascinating. #geowebchat

joeeckert 1:00pm @DrHG also sf.curbed.com/archives/2007/… for instance. there’s one of NY too. #geowebchat

rushgeo 1:01pm @DrHG Historic Filipinotown collection on Hypercities.com is pretty impressive. Broadcastr.com has potential, too. #geowebchat

Geoteq 1:02pm I believe that the definition of Cartography should change. Represent big data and in real-time will create dif kinds of viz #geowebchat

joeeckert 1:02pm @geoparadigm hahaha, as we all rush for the SF emotion map! it works, we swear! then again, it’s only one person/example. #geowebchat

mappingmashups 1:03pm Well, thank you all for the great chat. I hope we were blowing some minds at the end there… #geowebchat

DrHG 1:04pm Argh…phone battery is dying….argh…. Will be back #geowebchat

AndrewShears 1:04pm @mappingmashups Crap, missed #geowebchat. Transcript coming?

mappingmashups 1:05pm Next chats will be at the same time, on Feb 7, Feb 21, and Mar 6. Topic suggestions and guest hosts are always welcome. #geowebchat

mappingmashups 1:05pm Sometime soon I’ll post today’s transcript along with the others at mappingmashups.net/geowebchat/ #geowebchat

DrHG 1:07pm Thanks to everyone who participated … I thoroughly enjoyed this week’s #geowebchat.

joeeckert 1:07pm @AndrewShears you’re fired. #geowebchat

mappingmashups 1:07pm Special thanks to the new participants this week! #geowebchat

rushgeo 1:08pm Long time lurker, first time participant. Woo! #geowebchat

Geoteq 1:08pm Gr8 chat. It’s always good to interact with ppl w/ similar ideas. My apologies 4 my English. I’m a Brazilian guy ’till learning #geowebchat

mappingmashups 1:10pm @Geoteq Your english was impeccable, glad to have you! #geowebchat

GarethEnticott 1:11pm @mappingmashups @DrHG No but I like @oobr‘s maps of boris bike usage around London oliverobrien.co.uk guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/… #geowebchat

Geoteq 1:13pm @mappingmashups Thank you, nice to meet you. It was a pleasure to talk with every1. See you next #geowebchat. Cheers Everyone

mappingmashups 1:14pm Apropos of #geowebchat RT @cartogeek: “A One-Man Mapquest” about cartographer Dave Imus and his award winning #map bit.ly/wvxZOt

joeeckert 1:15pm thanks y’all! good times. #geowebchat

@re_sieber The past year–the revival of OAuth, tokens to access everything! Also retrenchment from Google, as it sheds apps. #geowebchat 11:02am

@mappingmashups Yeah, what’s up with Google, anyway? What was the downside for them if they kept all those labs apps running? #geowebchat 11:03am

@mappingmashups And the revival of OAuth? I don’t know enough about that, did it have a previous heyday? #geowebchat 11:04am

@re_sieber Next year I hope for APIs to make streaming data handling easier. Or XPath examples that work! #geowebchat 11:04am

@mappingmashups Welcome @Geoteq! You’ve been RTing a lot of good 2011 review links today! Plenty of material to talk about there, too. #geowebchat 11:05am

@re_sieber @Geoteq Welcome. Can you RT some prognostications w #geowebchat hashtag? 11:06am

@mappingmashups (Meanwhile, my breakfast order just came up. Shall I share a photo with you? Did food tweets increase or decrease in 2011?) #geowebchat 11:07am

@re_sieber @mappingmashups Sites that used to have access keys, tokens took them out and then brought them back. #geowebchat 11:07am

@mappingmashups #geowebchat RT @Geoteq: Map Art Exhibitions – maps created by artists in 2010-2011: j.mp/tRa2p2 11:09am

@mappingmashups #geowebchat RT @Geoteq: The best of 2011 in maps: spatial.ly/rFDSOv MT @spatialanalysis #cartography #dataviz 11:09am

@AndrewShears Really cool. RT @mappingmashups: #geowebchat RT @Geoteq: Map Art Exhibitions – maps created by artists in 2010-2011: j.mp/tRa2p2 11:09am

@re_sieber @mappingmashups I guess it means less employees to maintain/mind apps. But what’s the prob w them creating a repository of apps? #geowebchat 11:09am

@mappingmashups @re_sieber But I’m sure Google has employees to burn! Maybe this creates an opening for someone else to host apps? Yahoo? MSFT? #geowebchat 11:11am

@re_sieber Check out #neogeoweb for happenings from the Fall of 2011. My current fave is extendny.com #geowebchat 11:12am

@re_sieber @mappingmashups Google is actually rethinking its biz strategy/mission. So concentrate on apps that can be monetized #geowebchat 11:13am

@mappingmashups @re_sieber Yeah, your #neogeoweb class found a ton of great links. Def a hashtag to note. Are you teaching it again in 2012? #geowebchat 11:13am

@AndrewShears Here’s a participatory social mapping project (in it’s infancy) that a friend of mine’s been working on: bit.ly/vcmNtN #GeoWebChat 11:14am

@re_sieber nxt yr? Further shedding of Google apps bc they can’t be monetized. Days of easy ‘pts on map make $’ idea is gone #geowebchat 11:14am

@mappingmashups The “best of” link reminded me of the iPhone tracking fiasco, & now Carrier IQ mess. Expect more massive privacy leaks in 2012. #geowebchat 11:15am

@re_sieber @AndrewShears Love that. My PhD, who’s doing climate change education & Geoweb would be interested. #geowebchat 11:17am

@mappingmashups Here’s my iPhone map as of April 20, just for fun. #geowebchat twitpic.com/7pelq6 11:19am

@re_sieber 2012 further centralization of LBS as companies like Gowalla are eaten #geowebchat 11:19am

@Geoteq Greetings everyone. Sorry, I’m having a problems with connection. I can’t guarantee that I will actively participate this chat. #geowebchat 11:20am

@mappingmashups @re_sieber @AndrewShears The toweatherness project is cool, & interesting how a hashtag is the diff between VGI and “Ambient GI” #geowebchat 11:22am

@re_sieber 2012 Further integration of space and time. Also integration of the ‘space’ of social network analysis and geography #geowebchat 11:24am

@mappingmashups In 2012 will we see a massive shift to 3D city models on geoweb? re: Apple’s recent acquisitions? Or is that still a mirage? #geowebchat 11:24am

@bricker Awesome links! #geowebchat 11:25am

@mappingmashups @re_sieber Agreed time is becoming more crucial. If only because the geoweb is old enough to have more & more stale data around #geowebchat 11:26am

@AndrewShears @mappingmashups I could see more 3D modeling from Google’s interior streetview + Offers… interactive like Minority Report #geowebchat 11:27am

@mappingmashups Or more as it gets harder to opt out? RT @re_sieber: @mappingmashups @AndrewShears 2012 less #ambientGI as people get paranoid? #geowebchat 11:27am

@bricker @mappingmashups don’t forget ESRI bit.ly/o7blZl #geowebchat 11:27am

@mappingmashups @jlabove (and @geoteq) no worries about slow-pokes. Participate as much as you can, or lurk as much as you like. #geowebchat 11:27am

@re_sieber @mappingmashups 3D requires data. MS did well 2 integ gaming algorithms & GI but I don’t see advances bc of shift 2 sm screens #geowebchat 11:27am

@AndrewShears By combining data obtained from search with integrated streetview plus offers plus GPS… How personal cld our virtual space be? #geowebchat 11:28am

@mappingmashups Holy crap! RT @bricker: @mappingmashups don’t forget ESRI bit.ly/o7blZl #geowebchat 11:28am

@AndrewShears I’d love to see more of the 3D #Geoviz be focused on historical and cultural geog… I’d love to visit Manhattan in 1947. #geowebchat 11:29am

@mappingmashups Nice! RT @jlabove: so i’ve been getting jazzed about ‘social mapping’. here’s my year in 4sq:4sqmap.com/stats/jlabove #GeoWebChat 11:30am

@re_sieber @bricker Yikes, that’s boatload of vectors! How fast does that run in realtime? #geowebchat 11:31am

@bricker @re_sieber #geowebchat despite the small screen there is room for mobile AR (MAR), especially for monitization MAR=Wow 11:31am

@AndrewShears @mappingmashups @re_sieber I honestly thought the iphone “tracking” would be the end of opt-out geotracking. #GeoWebChat 11:31am

@bricker have you seen the inception app? @jlabove #geowebchat 11:31am

@AndrewShears @bricker @jlabove Inception app? Link? #geowebchat 11:34am

@bricker @re_sieber #geowebchat yea that is the challenge. I predict less vectors, less systems immersion, more behavior immersion with less viz 11:34am

@bricker @AndrewShears @jlabove #geowebchat bit.ly/dZCNHr heard about via PPGIS listserv 11:36am

@AndrewShears Agreed! RT @jlabove: Google Maps 6 is going into retail spaces. I have many issues with this! bit.ly/sy7sDt #GeoWebChat 11:36am

@mappingmashups @jlabove Wow. Since everything in IKEA is prob’ly RFIDed, you should just be able to hook up a tag reader to your smartphone… #geowebchat 11:36am

@re_sieber @bricker behavior immersion? Is that AR plus software agents (think Mr. Clippy, the Paperclip in MS) #geowebchat 11:37am

@AndrewShears @mappingmashups @jlabove Imagine walking in a mall w this mobile geoweb integration! It’d be million voices = Borg collective. #geowebchat 11:38am

@mappingmashups #geowebchat RT @jlabove: insane. but somehow, true! clearly, the internet is where all of our free time and creativity goes! 11:38am

@bricker @AndrewShears @jlabove #geowebchat minority report anyone? 11:39am

@re_sieber @AndrewShears @jlabove Google Maps 6 goes indoors. Like outside.in (whatever happend to them) bit.ly/sy7sDt #GeoWebChat #neogeoweb 11:39am

@re_sieber @mappingmashups @jlabove Internet is where all of our free time goes. Just Twitter #geowebchat 11:40am

@mappingmashups @AndrewShears @jlabove Borg-mall-mind wouldn’t be too bad if the voices weren’t filtered by IKEA. Could create some good subtext #geowebchat 11:40am

@AndrewShears @jlabove @mappingmashups And of course, for what purpose? #capitalism #geowebchat 11:40am

@mappingmashups This is fun, we should pick on IKEA as our evil monolith more often… ragging on Google & Apple all the time gets tiresome. #geowebchat 11:41am

@mappingmashups @re_sieber @AndrewShears @jlabove outside.in is (was?) about hyperlocal news, but not truly indoor stuff, right? #geowebchat 11:42am

@AndrewShears @re_sieber @jlabove @bricker Does that mean we might *finally* be getting #VirtualReality environments like promised in 1990s? #geowebchat 11:42am

@bricker @re_sieber #geowebchat, could be, was thinking I am in Nadine’s lab but behaviorally immersed in your lab right now w/o using a HMD 11:42am

@mappingmashups @AndrewShears Tsk Tsk, not just #VirtualReality but also #AugmentedReality. We’re geographers here! #geowebchat 11:43am

@re_sieber @AndrewShears @jlabove @mappingmashups Unfortunately, my students care little ab who’s mapping or mapped. #geowebchat 11:43am

@mappingmashups @bricker @re_sieber Just think how much more immersed you could be if you had wifi there, Britta! #geowebchat 11:44am

@AndrewShears What is the app that combines phone camera pointing with basically streetview address data for a layered experience? #geowebchat 11:44am

@re_sieber @mappingmashups @AndrewShears @jlabove Have to find company that was stitching streetview to indoor 360 views; saw @ where 2.0 #geowebchat 11:44am

@mappingmashups @AndrewShears Are you talking about something like Yelp’s monocle, or Layar? #geowebchat 11:45am

@AndrewShears Result of the Facebook Effect RT @re_sieber @jlabove @mappingmashups Students care little ab who’s mapping or mapped. #geowebchat 11:46am

@SkipCody Redfin uses that technology in their listing app #geowebchat @AndrewShears 11:46am

@AndrewShears @mappingmashups Layar is what I was thinking of, thanks! #geowebchat. 11:46am

@re_sieber @re_sieber @mappingmashups @AndrewShears @jlabove It used ex of Cheers Bar. They were able 2 marker pts on indoor ‘street’ view #geowebchat 11:47am

@SkipCody How did it look? Impressive? Have to find company that was stitching streetview to indoor 360 views; saw @ where 2.0 #geowebchat 11:47am

@mappingmashups RT @alogicalfallacy: @AndrewShears Interesting, my students care quite a bit both about who is mapping/mapped and facebook #geowebchat 11:47am

@AndrewShears @mappingmashups @alogicalfallacy Could be amount of reliance on social network? Students here are more reliant, don’t care. #geowebchat 11:48am

@mappingmashups RT @re_sieber: @bricker There’s lots of work on NUIs (e.g., Kinect) and haptic interfaces, so more of that for 2012 #geowebchat 11:49am

@AndrewShears Indeed! RT @mappingmashups: Tsk Tsk, not just #VirtualReality but also #AugmentedReality. We’re geographers here! #geowebchat 11:49am

@mappingmashups (wishing we could get together for a geoweb movie night. Minority Report, Inception, what else?) #geowebchat 11:50am

@AndrewShears So, what if we took something like Layar and combined it with a historical reality? You could see what *used* to be somewhere. #geowebchat 11:50am

@mappingmashups RT @jlabove: @AndrewShears @mappingmashups @alogicalfallacy do they not care or is the work just happening in the background? #geowebchat 11:51am

@mappingmashups RT @jlabove: @AndrewShears @alogicalfallacy put another way, is the cost of knowing not worth getting off Facebook for? #geowebchat 11:51am

@mappingmashups Don’t forget your #geowebchat hashtag, kids! 11:51am

@bricker @AndrewShears #geowebchat this is being done in tourism and archeology 11:52am

@re_sieber @mappingmashups Avatar. Has one of the best immersive 4D map simulations #geowebchat 11:52am

@AndrewShears Exactly! RT @jlabove @mappingmashups @alogicalfallacy put another way, is cost of knowing not worth getting off Facebook for? #geowebchat 11:52am

@mappingmashups @AndrewShears Historical streetview has been done: infosthetics.com/archives/2010/… But as AR? Not sure. @bricker, do you know? #geowebchat 11:53am

@SkipCody +1 RT @AndrewShears: So, if we took something like Layar and comb it with a historical reality? You could see what *used* to be. #geowebchat 11:54am

@mappingmashups @jlabove @andrewshears @alogicalfallacy “mapping at FB isn’t so transparent” – can you clarify? I’m losing track of this thread. #geowebchat 11:55am

@bricker @mappingmashups @AndrewShears #geowebchat TourWist app comes to mind, one view of a city fixed in time 11:56am

@mappingmashups RT @bricker: @mappingmashups @AndrewShears #geowebchat I know of a MAR paper recreating buildings in Athens but not like street view 11:57am

@mappingmashups @jlabove @andrewshears @alogicalfallacy I see. Agree completely. #geowebchat 11:57am

@mappingmashups RT @alogicalfallacy: I just meant students concerned with security on phones and social networks. Fb mapping another thing #geowebchat 11:58am

@alogicalfallacy @mappingmashups @jlabove @andrewshears also concerns seem more socially than geospatially based. Of course, convergence. #GeoWebChat 11:58am

@mappingmashups Well everyone, the clock is about to strike 12, and Santa is coming. Time to wrap it up! Thanks to everybody for participating! #geowebchat 11:59am

@mappingmashups There will be no more #geowebchat events this month, and in January let’s do the 2nd and 4th Tuesday (that’s January 10 and January 24) 12:00pm

@mappingmashups All of our predictions are now part of the public record, and we will review them again in December 2012 to see who was right! #geowebchat 12:01pm

@alogicalfallacy Made my first comments during #geowebchat, fun and brilliant people. Must remember to be around more often. :) 12:02pm

@mappingmashups Also, there may be a time change, so check back w/ me or check the web page: mappingmashups.net/geowebchat. Possibly shifting 1 hr later. #geowebchat 12:03pm

@re_sieber @mappingmashups Better harvest the tweets now as it’s streaming! Not ur mother’s database anymore! #geowebchat 12:04pm

@bricker #geowebchat Thanks for the fun!! 12:05pm

@mappingmashups TwapperKeeper is a fickle mistress! RT @re_sieber: Better harvest the tweets now! Not ur mother’s database anymore! #geowebchat 12:05pm

]]> http://mappingmashups.net/2011/12/06/geowebchat-transcript-6-december-2011/feed/ 0 http://mappingmashups.net/2011/12/06/geowebchat-transcript-6-december-2011/ http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/MappingMashups/~3/RLwu1aGpj_Y/ http://mappingmashups.net/2011/11/15/geowebchat-transcript-15-november-2011/#comments Wed, 16 Nov 2011 05:22:36 +0000 Alan http://mappingmashups.net/?p=299

@mappingmashups Next #geowebchat topic: Tools! How to know which software, data, etc is right for the task? Share your exp & Qs. Join us Tue 11a PT. Pls RT! Tue Nov 15 02:07:27 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups Welcome to #geowebchat, everyone. Let’s talk tools, data, licenses… How do you choose the right one for a proj? How much does it matter? Tue Nov 15 19:01:23 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups My experience: have been mapping #occupy camps lately & have to choose between OpenStreetMap & Google, whether I host or not… #geowebchat Tue Nov 15 19:04:10 +0000 2011

@roaming_roman77 @mappingmashups Kind of a dumb question,as I’m newish w/ GIS, but how to deal w/ memory demand of it? Slows my pc quite a bit #geowebchat Tue Nov 15 19:04:58 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups @roaming_roman77 Hi Roman. What software are you using? This is a desktop GIS program you’re talking about? #geowebchat Tue Nov 15 19:06:01 +0000 2011

@joeeckert @mappingmashups Same choices here. GMaps = easier to teach to an absolute novice. My #occupy stuff has been workshop driven. #geowebchat Tue Nov 15 19:06:06 +0000 2011

@roaming_roman77 @mappingmashups Yes ArcGIS – a one-year license for students from my school #geowebchat Tue Nov 15 19:07:55 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups @joeeckert W/ GMaps you also have diff kind of visibilty. Ppl need the link to find it while on OSM you could stumble across it. #geowebchat Tue Nov 15 19:09:12 +0000 2011

@joeeckert @roaming_roman77 sadly, the answer is probably “buy more RAM” #geowebchat (must…fight…urge…to…problematize) Tue Nov 15 19:09:25 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups @joeeckert …but on the other hand fewer people use OSM. So a smaller audience in that sense. Also issues of user familiarity. #geowebchat Tue Nov 15 19:10:47 +0000 2011

@joeeckert @mappingmashups true. does OSM give you any sort of viewing stats? be curious to see the magnitude of the stumbling. #geowebchat Tue Nov 15 19:10:54 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups @joeeckert @roaming_roman77 Yes, not much you can do to avoid RAM prob. But also try to avoid loading too much data at once? #geowebchat Tue Nov 15 19:11:43 +0000 2011

@joeeckert @roaming_roman77 oh, there’s also a little pause icon at the bottom of your screen. that stops redraws. might help w/speed #geowebchat Tue Nov 15 19:13:08 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups @joeeckert Good thought. No idea if #osm has viewing stats. I’d like that. Reminds of Bing viewing heatmap of a few yrs ago. #geowebchat Tue Nov 15 19:13:49 +0000 2011

@joeeckert @mappingmashups for me it’s a question of who I’m collaborating with and the value of teaching the more difficult system. #geowebchat Tue Nov 15 19:13:54 +0000 2011

@joeeckert @mappingmashups also, the ability to embed media with GMaps seems to give value as well, particularly for qual/narrative maps #geowebchat Tue Nov 15 19:14:27 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups @joeeckert True. That’s where you’d have to host your own OpenLayers instance to get similar functionality. Or crowdmap.. #geowebchat Tue Nov 15 19:15:54 +0000 2011

@hughstimson #geowebchat And I suspect the familiarity with the GMaps interface allows users to more quickly focus on content. Tue Nov 15 19:16:12 +0000 2011

@joeeckert @mappingmashups yup, which comes with another host of training issues, right? for me, let alone collaborators! #geowebchat Tue Nov 15 19:17:18 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups @joeeckert Embedding video stories in some #occupy maps seems the next logical step. I’d like to talk to @houghstimson abt that! #geowebchat Tue Nov 15 19:17:31 +0000 2011

@joeeckert @mappingmashups I’ve had a lot of luck finding video by searching nearby street intersections w/the word “police”. #geowebchat Tue Nov 15 19:18:41 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups @joeeckert The beauty is that somebody else (not the map geek) might be able to train ppl on youtube uploading. Links r easy. #geowebchat Tue Nov 15 19:18:52 +0000 2011

@hughstimson My #1 reason for *not* using GMaps is data agency. Some clients don’t want or legally can’t store data in a transnational cloud. #geowebchat Tue Nov 15 19:18:58 +0000 2011

@hughstimson @mappingmashups We’ve done very little to leverage geo at #OccupyVancouver. Partially because we’re spatially concentrated. #geowebchat Tue Nov 15 19:20:17 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups @hughstimson Also a good point. So that’s a 3rd category: GMaps vs OSM vs personally-hosted data/mapping stack. #geowebchat Tue Nov 15 19:20:17 +0000 2011

@joeeckert @hughstimson so locally hosted OL installs? arcserver? #geowebchat Tue Nov 15 19:20:43 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups @joeeckert @hughstimson Arcserver [shudder]. GeoServer or MapServer. If it’s your own thing why not FLOSS? Esp for activism. #geowebchat Tue Nov 15 19:22:05 +0000 2011

@joeeckert @mappingmashups “client” is nebulous, and some clients have a heroin-like addiction to arc. some have a legal addiction too #geowebchat Tue Nov 15 19:24:31 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups @joeeckert Of course. But is ArcServer often mixed with OpenLayers? I suppose it could happen. I wouldn’t know. #geowebchat Tue Nov 15 19:25:27 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups So, since the few of us here are all #occupy interested, do we just want to steer the rest of the conversation that direction? #geowebchat Tue Nov 15 19:28:28 +0000 2011

@hughstimson Hey does anybody know what the deal is with this mysterious new http://t.co/POSPFXwl project from @OpenGeo? #geowebchat Tue Nov 15 19:29:19 +0000 2011

@joeeckert @hughstimson don’t know, but it looks like ESRI has one too: http://t.co/A14VSvs7 #geowebchat Tue Nov 15 19:30:30 +0000 2011

@mvexel OSM usage stats – there used to be a tile usage heat map, trying to locate that #geowebchat Tue Nov 15 19:30:50 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups @hughstimson Oh interesting, it’s an outgrowth of @GeoNode. Which is something like like a geostack-in-a-box, I guess? #geowebchat Tue Nov 15 19:31:14 +0000 2011

@roaming_roman77 @mappingmashups That sounds good – this is kind of all over my head, but I’m happy just to listen in and observe :-) #geowebchat Tue Nov 15 19:32:00 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups GeoNode is exactly what I was trying to think of earlier (but didn’t tweet because I couldn’t think of the name). #geowebchat Tue Nov 15 19:32:09 +0000 2011

@joeeckert @mappingmashups sure. so what’s the value in mapping an #occupy? what work is that doing? start there, maybe? #geowebchat Tue Nov 15 19:33:38 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups I was thinking something like Geonode (maybe MapStory?) could be an indymedia-style toolkit if you need own hosting/control. #geowebchat Tue Nov 15 19:34:17 +0000 2011

@hughstimson @mappingmashups I imagine 2 #geo uses at #Occupy: public facing story telling, and hey-does-anyone-know-where-the-march-is-now. #geowebchat Tue Nov 15 19:34:29 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups @roaming_roman77 Cool, you’re welcome to hang out. Not sure if there are any #GIS-specific chats, but we’re happy to have you. #geowebchat Tue Nov 15 19:35:15 +0000 2011

@mvexel mapping of transient things used to be considered mostly useless, but in a temporally continuous repository like OSM it isn’t #geowebchat Tue Nov 15 19:35:21 +0000 2011

@mvexel …as long as it’s being curated well – often ppl will map something transient but forget to remove it after the fact #geowebchat Tue Nov 15 19:36:16 +0000 2011

@hughstimson @mvexel Interesting. Elaborate on “temporally continuous repository”? #geowebchat Tue Nov 15 19:36:55 +0000 2011

@joeeckert @mvexel that’s the hitch, right? at least with another layer, you don’t have to remove it later. and you can store for archival #geowebchat Tue Nov 15 19:37:13 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups @mvexel Yes, because even tho #osm is temporally continuous, it doesn’t really support time in the db. It can ONLY map the now. #geowebchat Tue Nov 15 19:37:19 +0000 2011

@mvexel osm has no releases, it’s updated continuously and every object retains full history #geowebchat Tue Nov 15 19:37:43 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups Basically, #OSM is a (human-maintained) “live” map. It’s only as live as the users. #geowebchat Tue Nov 15 19:38:17 +0000 2011

@mvexel so… #OpenStreetMap itself *is* a story #geowebchat Tue Nov 15 19:38:32 +0000 2011

@mvexel told in the beautiful language of XML #geowebchat Tue Nov 15 19:38:55 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups @mvexel But it’s the history of the db object, which is only sometimes the same as the real world object. #geowebchat Tue Nov 15 19:39:48 +0000 2011

@peterajohnson @mappingmashups @mvexel that is a huge limitation of OSM – that it can only display one version of ‘current’ reality #geowebchat Tue Nov 15 19:40:53 +0000 2011

@sgillies RT @mvexel: osm has no releases, it’s updated continuously and every object retains full history #geowebchat Tue Nov 15 19:41:18 +0000 2011

@sgillies RT @mvexel: so… #OpenStreetMap itself *is* a story #geowebchat Tue Nov 15 19:41:21 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups @joeeckert @mvexel With a GMaps layer, though, without metadata or supervision, no way to tell if it’s archival or just stale. #geowebchat Tue Nov 15 19:41:31 +0000 2011

@santiagohiguera RT @mvexel: osm has no releases, it’s updated continuously and every object retains full history #geowebchat Tue Nov 15 19:41:34 +0000 2011

@hughstimson @mappingmashups @mvexel Shall we re-make Borge’s map, but now with a 1:1 time scale to match the 1:1 spatial scale? #geowebchat Tue Nov 15 19:41:40 +0000 2011

@peterajohnson @mappingmashups @mvexel but let me clarify – it does show the discussion surrounding that current version. So mapping #ows fits #geowebchat Tue Nov 15 19:42:35 +0000 2011

@mvexel you could ‘easily’ create historical visualizations for #OpenStreetMap – there’s just noone whosat down and did it #geowebchat Tue Nov 15 19:42:58 +0000 2011

@hughstimson @peterajohnson Agreed (assuming there *isn’t* a solution). More and more, maybe most, #geo projects I see demand a time slider. #geowebchat Tue Nov 15 19:43:06 +0000 2011

@peterajohnson @hughstimson @mappingmashups @mvexel an easy way to skim through time on #osm would be great #geowebchat Tue Nov 15 19:43:13 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups @hughstimson @mvexel Hah! I think that’s what OSM already is! We only map as fast as things happen in real time. #geowebchat Tue Nov 15 19:43:18 +0000 2011

@joeeckert @mappingmashups wait a sec, what’s the difference between archival and stale here? #geowebchat Tue Nov 15 19:43:29 +0000 2011

@hughstimson @mappingmashups The www Google Earth plugin supports (I’m told) the standard KML time format and comes with a free time slider. #geowebchat Tue Nov 15 19:45:09 +0000 2011

@mvexel There’s no way to distinguish between ‘it’s still good so we don’t change it’ and ‘no-one’s looking after it’ in OSM #geowebchat Tue Nov 15 19:45:13 +0000 2011

@mvexel …and there should be, otherwise you can never determine local data quality #geowebchat Tue Nov 15 19:45:56 +0000 2011

@mvexel @hughstimson solution found! we just need to convert 30GB BZ2 compressed OSM XML data to KML ;) #geowebchat Tue Nov 15 19:46:46 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups @joeeckert archival vs stale, I need to think abt it more. In GMaps its a lot easier for things to rot when ppl stop looking… #geowebchat Tue Nov 15 19:47:04 +0000 2011

@sgillies RT @mvexel: There’s no way to distinguish between ‘it’s still good so we don’t change it’ and ‘no-one’s looking after it’ in OSM #geowebchat Tue Nov 15 19:47:40 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups …and I guess we could just trust the last edited date as a timestamp saying “this was correct then”. Just like in OSM. #geowebchat Tue Nov 15 19:48:04 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups In GMaps or OSM there’s no way for me to draw features that existed in past w/ machine-readable dates. Only date is edit date. #geowebchat Tue Nov 15 19:50:04 +0000 2011

@joeeckert @mappingmashups yeah, not sure one is any more equipped than the other save for UI. which brings us full circle (again)…#geowebchat Tue Nov 15 19:50:16 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups RT @mvexel: There’s no way to distinguish between ‘it’s still good so we don’t change it’ and ‘no-one’s looking after it’ in OSM #geowebchat Tue Nov 15 19:50:31 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups RT @mvexel: …and there should be, otherwise you can never determine local data quality #geowebchat Tue Nov 15 19:50:38 +0000 2011

@peterajohnson @mappingmashups I worry that in desire for data quality/accuracy we lose critical analysis skills – users must learn to judge #geowebchat Tue Nov 15 19:51:33 +0000 2011

@mvexel This #geowebchat# was about tools too, right? Made me revisit @petzlux’s excellent usability study for the OSM editor http://t.co/0ekEtp8a Tue Nov 15 19:51:50 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups Equally important in #osm: ability of editing tools to deal with time, and hide ghost objects or else editing would be chaos. #geowebchat Tue Nov 15 19:51:51 +0000 2011

@peterajohnson @mappingmashups don’t you leave excellent metadata describing these things? ;) #geowebchat Tue Nov 15 19:52:23 +0000 2011

@mvexel Oops, that link was to the usability study for the OSM front page #geowebchat – I’m pretty sure the Potlatch editor was under scrutiny too. Tue Nov 15 19:53:49 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups @peterajohnson Yes, using the excellent .shp.xml uploader function in Google My Maps editor. ;) #geowebchat Tue Nov 15 19:53:56 +0000 2011

@peterajohnson @mvexel nice study – really interesting to consider why users sign up but don’t contribute #geowebchat Tue Nov 15 19:54:07 +0000 2011

@peterajohnson @mvexel in all fairness it took me 6 years from signup to make my first edit in #osm #geowebchat Tue Nov 15 19:54:31 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups @peterajohnson Well, at least you must have gotten a good username, right Peter? But editing sure was simpler then… #geowebchat Tue Nov 15 19:55:26 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups And sadly, requiring new #osm users to deal with temporal would explode their heads if not done right. Even if done right. #geowebchat Tue Nov 15 19:56:12 +0000 2011

@joeeckert @mvexel any studies for someone trying to self-teach through documentation? i’m assuming that’s where most of the gum-up starts. #geowebchat Tue Nov 15 19:56:15 +0000 2011

@mvexel @joeeckert don’t know of any offhand #geowebchat Tue Nov 15 19:56:50 +0000 2011

@hughstimson The main thing keeping me from making edits in #OSM is doubting it’s relevancy. How often does that data really get used anyway? #geowebchat Tue Nov 15 19:56:59 +0000 2011

@peterajohnson @joeeckert interesting study potential. Take 100 uni students, give tutorial to add to #osm gauge success rate. #geowebchat compare to GMM Tue Nov 15 19:58:17 +0000 2011

@mvexel @hughstimson it would get used more if people wouldn’t ask that question as much and just go ahead and contribute #geowebchat Tue Nov 15 19:58:50 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups @hughstimson Relevancy of OSM? There’s a can of worms! It probably gets used more than you think. And more if you proselytize… #geowebchat Tue Nov 15 19:59:37 +0000 2011

@mvexel @peterajohnson @joeeckert looking fwd to seeing the results :) #geowebchat Tue Nov 15 19:59:52 +0000 2011

@mhaklay @mvexel here the usability study of OSM editor – http://t.co/7cK8Xoq8 – from @petzlux and @spatialK8 #geowebchat Tue Nov 15 20:00:04 +0000 2011

@peterajohnson @hughstimson trying to get a local gov. here on board to use it. Only free data for their area. #geowebchat Tue Nov 15 20:00:23 +0000 2011

@joeeckert @mvexel responsibilization only goes so far though, right? isn’t there a point at which “why not?” should be addressed? #geowebchat Tue Nov 15 20:00:36 +0000 2011

@mvexel @mhaklay thanks for that link #geowebchat Tue Nov 15 20:00:50 +0000 2011

@peterajohnson @mvexel @joeeckert what level of financial reward do you think students would need to give it a fair try? $50? #geowebchat Tue Nov 15 20:01:27 +0000 2011

@mvexel @joeeckert it should, and it is – but not enough #geowebchat Tue Nov 15 20:01:50 +0000 2011

@mhaklay @peterajohnson we also done something close – http://t.co/QqaQSqwG and http://t.co/PFYe7aHp #geowebchat Tue Nov 15 20:02:00 +0000 2011

@hughstimson @mvexel So your sense is that the main limiter on #OSM uptake is lack of data? (oops, forgot to prefix with #geowebchat) Tue Nov 15 20:02:09 +0000 2011

@mvexel @hughstimson no, but if the data is not there the other variables don’t matter #geowebchat Tue Nov 15 20:03:16 +0000 2011

@joeeckert @peterajohnson @mvexel “get off your ass and just do it” is poor classroom pedagogy. not sure why it’s the preferred response. #geowebchat Tue Nov 15 20:04:17 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups MT @OpenGeo: MapStory is a client project, we’re adding support for playing maps over time to @GeoNode (and #GeoServer). #geowebchat Tue Nov 15 20:04:28 +0000 2011

@mvexel @hughstimson one other thing that’s lacking is a trust metric based on community activity #geowebchat Tue Nov 15 20:04:41 +0000 2011

@peterajohnson @mvexel @hughstimson I’d love to see an #osm showcase that gives tons of examples where #osm data is used. Marketing! #geowebchat Tue Nov 15 20:04:44 +0000 2011

@mvexel @peterajohnson @joeeckert it may be, but without that attitude we wouldn’t have OSM today #geowebchat Tue Nov 15 20:05:18 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups No need to stop the chat, but wanted to remind that next chat is in 3 wks, on the 1st Tues of the month: Dec 6. #geowebchat Tue Nov 15 20:05:43 +0000 2011

@mvexel @peterajohnson it would, I agree. #geowebchat Tue Nov 15 20:07:13 +0000 2011

@peterajohnson so, are tools the issue? or is volunteers the issue? or some combination of both? #geowebchat Tue Nov 15 20:07:30 +0000 2011

@joeeckert @mvexel but that attitude seems (to me) off-putting to novices, yeah? seems like a dynamic tension (present in other FLOSS too) #geowebchat Tue Nov 15 20:07:40 +0000 2011

@hughstimson @mappingmashups @OpenGeo @GeoNode There we go: a time slider. Guess that means I’ll be wrestling more Geoserver installs. Yay? #geowebchat Tue Nov 15 20:07:56 +0000 2011

@mvexel @joeeckert you’re absolutely right – there need to be more clear incentives to map such as specialized visualizations / apps.. #geowebchat Tue Nov 15 20:09:03 +0000 2011

@peterajohnson to a certain extent, having easy-to-use tools is key. but attracting motivated volunteers can make up for a lot of toolfail #geowebchat Tue Nov 15 20:09:06 +0000 2011

@joeeckert thanks for the #geowebchat gang, have to head into the office now. see you in a few weeks. Tue Nov 15 20:09:18 +0000 2011

@mvexel @joeeckert ..as well as easier and specialized input tools #geowebchat Tue Nov 15 20:09:29 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups Thanks everybody, again I like all the places we went with this chat. Always the unexpected! #geowebchat Tue Nov 15 20:10:48 +0000 2011

@mvexel inspiring #geowebchat today, thanks all. Next one in three weeks, same time. Tue Nov 15 20:11:12 +0000 2011

@hughstimson @peterajohnson My own suspicion: ease of developing applications that draw on the data and give it profile. Versus, say, Gmaps. #geowebchat Tue Nov 15 20:11:23 +0000 2011

@peterajohnson @hughstimson @mappingmashups @opengeo @geonode good planning support tool potential. Visualizing what could be over time is key #geowebchat Tue Nov 15 20:11:35 +0000 2011

@hughstimson Indeed, thanks everybody. See you next time in the no-space. #geowebchat Tue Nov 15 20:12:25 +0000 2011

@grenouf RT @hughstimson: Indeed, thanks everybody. See you next time in the no-space. #geowebchat Tue Nov 15 20:12:33 +0000 2011

@peterajohnson Cheers everyone – always fun, sorry I missed the start. See you all in three weeks #geowebchat Tue Nov 15 20:12:35 +0000 2011

@roaming_roman77 @mappingmashups Thanks for organizing #geowebchat-though I don’t know much beyond basic GIS, was quite fascinating& I’ll be back next time! Tue Nov 15 20:17:05 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups Looks like we’ve got a crisismapping session happening at hashtag #ICCM while we’re here chatting at #geowebchat. Neat convergence. Tue Nov 15 20:20:49 +0000 2011

@DrHG @mappingmashups Thank you. hope to collaborate with @mhaklay on enthusiasm and participatory mapping. possible future #geowebchat :-) Tue Nov 15 20:26:13 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups Reminder: #geowebchat in 3 hrs (11a PT). Topic is the new Google Maps API fee for use. Come join the discussion, and please RT! Tue Nov 01 15:05:09 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups Good morning/afternoon everyone. Welcome to another #geowebchat! Today let’s talk Google. …again. Specifically, the GMaps API. Tue Nov 01 18:01:19 +0000 2011

@re_sieber Seems like Google’s forgotten its biz model, to advertise on app or to mine data from app. Not to charge for access to app #geowebchat Tue Nov 01 18:03:48 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups Some context: Starting Jan 1, Google will start charging for use of the Maps API for heavy users. http://t.co/R3jwHKlm #geowebchat Tue Nov 01 18:04:10 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups @re_sieber Seems like it. But are there any cases of map-based advertising that doesn’t suck? #geowebchat Tue Nov 01 18:04:55 +0000 2011

@re_sieber we could remind them: mine every kml. #geowebchat (mine every kml; ford every fusion table….) Tue Nov 01 18:05:41 +0000 2011

@joeeckert @re_sieber is that a symptom of Google’s business model failing to scale appropriately? #geowebchat Tue Nov 01 18:06:18 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups And then, sell that mined data to 3rd parties? That’s a model we’ve critiqued before (but not necessarily on business merits) #geowebchat Tue Nov 01 18:07:02 +0000 2011

@re_sieber could lead to a broader discussion of corporatization of our geoweb conversations #geowebchat Tue Nov 01 18:07:33 +0000 2011

@re_sieber move everything to OSM? Is the platform designed to handle the diversity of content, multimedia? #geowebchat Tue Nov 01 18:08:49 +0000 2011

@burnsr77 @re_sieber: that’s the ? that’s raised for me – the political economy of the geoweb emerges more strongly, & our convos shift #geowebchat Tue Nov 01 18:09:02 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups So, do these seem to be the three main biz models: pay for service, (implicitly) sell your data, or be advertised to? #geowebchat Tue Nov 01 18:09:24 +0000 2011

@peterajohnson could argue that Google charging corporations isn’t really a big deal. Does TripAdvisor need to have free maps? #geowebchat Tue Nov 01 18:10:04 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups …or some combo of those three? If you pay for service, it’s unlikely that you could get Google to opt you out of being mined. #geowebchat Tue Nov 01 18:10:15 +0000 2011

@joeeckert @re_sieber not really. OSM maps the cartesian. not room for much else w/o an API. always felt this is a strong limitation. #geowebchat Tue Nov 01 18:10:27 +0000 2011

@re_sieber @joeeckert that’s fascinating. The land of the mighty server farms and interoperable platforms being unable to scale #geowebchat Tue Nov 01 18:10:33 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups @re_sieber Even if we move to OSM, in reality that means moving to OpenLayers hosting providers. Who pays for the servers? #geowebchat Tue Nov 01 18:11:21 +0000 2011

@peterajohnson This is where Mapstraction comes in handy – switch map APIs w/minimal recoding: http://t.co/onEvggL1 #geowebchat Tue Nov 01 18:12:11 +0000 2011

@joeeckert @re_sieber “unable” and “cost effective” are two different things though, right? i mean, it is a profit-making endeavor #geowebchat Tue Nov 01 18:12:17 +0000 2011

@re_sieber @peterajohnson What’s free if it’s got banner ads everywhere and the data is being mined? However, w API, easier to elim ads #geowebchat Tue Nov 01 18:12:30 +0000 2011

@joeeckert @mappingmashups not to mention #OSM has been running into the same issue – can’t afford to keep serving tiles for free. #geowebchat Tue Nov 01 18:12:55 +0000 2011

@peterajohnson @mappingmashups Who pays for servers is an issue for community groups. Maybe this is why GMaps API still free for small users? #geowebchat Tue Nov 01 18:13:10 +0000 2011

@joeeckert @peterajohnson handy tool, thanks for that. #geowebchat Tue Nov 01 18:13:31 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups @peterajohnson We could argue that this is Google successfully “not being evil”. Soak TripAdvisor to give free stuff to the 99% #geowebchat Tue Nov 01 18:14:34 +0000 2011

@joeeckert @peterajohnson is there a not-for-profit provision? #geowebchat Tue Nov 01 18:14:43 +0000 2011

@peterajohnson @re_sieber I think we need to re-calibrate our expectations of corporations and ‘free’. Nothing is free. #geowebchat Tue Nov 01 18:15:04 +0000 2011

@re_sieber @joeeckert Could mean their biz model is failing 2 keep up w costs. More likely revenue projections since monetization big prob #geowebchat Tue Nov 01 18:15:32 +0000 2011

@peterajohnson @mappingmashups the 99% won’t pay anyways. $10k is peanuts for corporate users. If anything this highlights the value of maps #geowebchat Tue Nov 01 18:16:03 +0000 2011

@joeeckert @re_sieber yup. suggests things will only get worse as data gets bigger. is the day of “free” service going to be scaled out? #geowebchat Tue Nov 01 18:16:30 +0000 2011

@peterajohnson @joeeckert sorry – nfp provision for? #geowebchat Google pricing doesn’t apply to small users. Good writeup here: http://t.co/1LDaVmZ8 Tue Nov 01 18:16:58 +0000 2011

@re_sieber @peterajohnson @mappingmashups Spoken like a true corporate man. Wait a minute, aren’t you a professor? #geowebchat Tue Nov 01 18:17:27 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups @peterajohnson Apple’s gobbling up of 3D mapping companies also highlights the value of maps. Something else we could discuss. #geowebchat Tue Nov 01 18:17:34 +0000 2011

@peterajohnson @re_sieber The gap between corporate and academia gets thinner every day…#geowebchat Tue Nov 01 18:18:19 +0000 2011

@joeeckert @peterajohnson thinking here about ushahidi deployments likely to exceed the 25k limit, thus the nfp question #geowebchat Tue Nov 01 18:18:34 +0000 2011

@re_sieber @joeeckert It’s the biz models and their projected quarterly earnings that are failing. #geowebchat Tue Nov 01 18:18:55 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups @joeeckert That is a big fear (that the day of free service will soon be over). In any case, we’re captive to Google’s whims. #geowebchat Tue Nov 01 18:19:30 +0000 2011

@peterajohnson @joeeckert 25k loads per DAY seems like a lot. Only covers initial load of map, not panning/zooming. #geowebchat Tue Nov 01 18:19:43 +0000 2011

@re_sieber @burnsr77 We never critiqued ESRI company when we were using it. Not that it’s inherently good or bad. Just dbl std w Google. #geowebchat Tue Nov 01 18:21:11 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups @joeeckert Good point abt crisis mapping: might have sporadic bursts of activity that exceed limit. Otherwise little activity. #geowebchat Tue Nov 01 18:21:16 +0000 2011

@peterajohnson @re_sieber then this is probably the first of many efforts to monentize Google services. Gmail next? #geowebchat that would raise a storm! Tue Nov 01 18:21:21 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups @re_sieber ESRI never tried to get us hooked with “the first one’s free” #geowebchat Tue Nov 01 18:21:49 +0000 2011

@joeeckert @peterajohnson pretty sure ushahidi topped that (or at least l-serves are atwitter). anyhow, found out a nfp provision exists #geowebchat Tue Nov 01 18:22:29 +0000 2011

@peterajohnson @re_sieber @burnsr77 Really? Never critiqued ESRI? Wonder how this influences ArcGIS.com strategy #geowebchat Tue Nov 01 18:22:59 +0000 2011

@joeeckert @re_sieber we didn’t? sure, a bit late to the party, but i’m not sure that went completely unchecked. #geowebchat Tue Nov 01 18:23:03 +0000 2011

@re_sieber @peterajohnson Gmail is already being mined and data sold 2 3d parties for ads #geowebchat Tue Nov 01 18:23:06 +0000 2011

@joeeckert @mappingmashups the hell they didn’t. who do you think pays for those copies of arc for the undergrads? ;) #geowebchat Tue Nov 01 18:23:37 +0000 2011

@peterajohnson @mappingmashups @re_sieber Zing! #geowebchat Google is interesting contrast to @geocommons that is making analysis tools free Tue Nov 01 18:23:55 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups @joeeckert Touché, but ESRI was only trying to get future professionals hooked. Google got everyone hooked. #geowebchat Tue Nov 01 18:24:47 +0000 2011

@peterajohnson @re_sieber We’ve all come to accept ads as part of the background noise. Now that it is milked out is pay per use inevitable? #geowebchat Tue Nov 01 18:25:51 +0000 2011

@joeeckert @mappingmashups they seem to be adapting to that approach, however. be interesting to see if they continue the free services. #geowebchat Tue Nov 01 18:26:41 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups @mappingmashups And to stretch my drug dealer metaphor beyond reason, Google implied it would always be free. Tho not explicitly #geowebchat Tue Nov 01 18:27:12 +0000 2011

@re_sieber @joeeckert refer 2 acad literature. Many critiques of corporate geoweb (wo mentioning Google). No critiques of corporate GIS #geowebchat Tue Nov 01 18:27:12 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups @peterajohnson Is problem really that ads are milked out? It’s just there was never a good way to embed ads for API users. #geowebchat Tue Nov 01 18:28:38 +0000 2011

@peterajohnson @mappingmashups I do wonder how long the Google Maps API pricing matrix has been floating around at corporate HQ? Since 2006? #geowebchat Tue Nov 01 18:28:52 +0000 2011

@re_sieber @peterajohnson I argue that their adsense type model failed. But why not try to rejuvenate it? #geowebchat Tue Nov 01 18:28:53 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups I think LBS will be more successful (to our irritation) in embedding ads. Just doesn’t work w/ plain GMaps in a webpage. #geowebchat Tue Nov 01 18:29:49 +0000 2011

@burnsr77 @re_sieber: precedence shouldnt matter. why compare geoweb convos to trad GIS in this case? #geowebchat Tue Nov 01 18:30:16 +0000 2011

@burnsr77 @re_sieber: i could just as easily write that critique of GIS right now. not too late. :) #geowebchat Tue Nov 01 18:30:45 +0000 2011

@joeeckert @re_sieber hmm. very surprised that didn’t come up in the rest of older critical GIS lit. wonder why not? #geowebchat Tue Nov 01 18:31:30 +0000 2011

@joeeckert @burnsr77 that’s not all that bad an idea, friend. i hear gis vs geoweb papers are all the rage these days. ;) #geowebchat Tue Nov 01 18:32:17 +0000 2011

@re_sieber @burnsr77 Just saying we gave ESRI a pass. Or maybe we criticize Google 2 much. A corporation just is. #geowebchat Tue Nov 01 18:33:03 +0000 2011

@peterajohnson @re_sieber Yeah, I guess ads are only good when people are buying things. #geowebchat Tue Nov 01 18:33:16 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups @joeeckert @re_sieber Seems that the lit considered GIS inherently corporate or govt/military? Geodemographics and all… #geowebchat Tue Nov 01 18:33:25 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups …but the biz model of GIS industry itself wasn’t critiqued as corporate? Due to lack of avail/awareness of FLOSS alterns?? #geowebchat Tue Nov 01 18:34:14 +0000 2011

@joeeckert @re_sieber i’d side with “gave ESRI a pass” – but can’t bite the hand that feeds, right? #geowebchat Tue Nov 01 18:34:41 +0000 2011

@re_sieber @re_sieber Or rather it’s a placeless corp w no allegiances. unlike early 20th C corps who had 2 care somewhat ab civic society #geowebchat Tue Nov 01 18:34:47 +0000 2011

@re_sieber @mappingmashups @joeeckert get ur pt. But cold war origins somewhat diff from criticizing corps. Geodemographics is corp critiq #geowebchat Tue Nov 01 18:36:44 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups @re_sieber Google the placeless corp? Ok. ESRI had allegiances to things like US govt and resource indust, if not actual places. #geowebchat Tue Nov 01 18:36:56 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups By allegiances I mean something more like symbiotic relationship. Google is dependent on no one? #geowebchat Tue Nov 01 18:37:56 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups RT @re_sieber: Bc we all knew Jack. He’s academic. Gave us free, subsidized licenses (had 2 fight his own mktg team 2 do that) #geowebchat Tue Nov 01 18:39:03 +0000 2011

@re_sieber @mappingmashups Google is not ONE OF US #geowebchat Tue Nov 01 18:39:19 +0000 2011

@joeeckert @mappingmashups maybe dependent on favorable interpretations of anti-trust laws…. #geowebchat Tue Nov 01 18:39:25 +0000 2011

@joeeckert can’t help but feel this all points to the popular “freemium” model that we see in games and increasingly in software dev. #geowebchat Tue Nov 01 18:40:40 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups @joeeckert like paying for the actually useful bits? Increasingly complic pricing schemes r everywhere. Airlines, mobile phones. #geowebchat Tue Nov 01 18:42:38 +0000 2011

@re_sieber @joeeckert I’d be ok with that as long as I wasn’t being subjected to ads or having my content mined. #geowebchat Tue Nov 01 18:43:39 +0000 2011

@joeeckert @mappingmashups i just paid $3 for a bit of excel script (offered via the help menus) to remove blank rows. everywhere indeed. #geowebchat Tue Nov 01 18:43:44 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups @joeeckert …to the point you have no idea what the final price will be. So much for informed consumers & neoclassical econ. #geowebchat Tue Nov 01 18:44:26 +0000 2011

@joeeckert @re_sieber me too. of course, it’s a little easier to say that when i have $5 in my pocket. #geowebchat Tue Nov 01 18:45:00 +0000 2011

@re_sieber I don’t need Google Apps 4 free. I need to know how they’re making $ off me. If I pay 4 add serv then they shouldn’t data mine #geowebchat Tue Nov 01 18:45:34 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups @re_sieber Thing is, how can we ever trust a deal that says our content isn’t mined? At least not in aggregate? #geowebchat Tue Nov 01 18:45:42 +0000 2011

@joeeckert @re_sieber but snark aside, isn’t that what ESRI appears to be shifting toward? NFPs get free use, packages start costing $ #geowebchat Tue Nov 01 18:46:12 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups This gets to the challenges in data retention policies, privacy. Can never be sure how well you’ve been purged from their logs. #geowebchat Tue Nov 01 18:47:41 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups RT @re_sieber: that’s the FB lesson: never trust a man who says your data isn’t being mined #geowebchat ‘Never trust a man over 30 clicks’ Tue Nov 01 18:48:14 +0000 2011

@re_sieber @mappingmashups that’s the FB lesson: never trust a man who says your data isn’t being mined #geowebchat ‘Never trust a man over 30 clicks’ Tue Nov 01 18:48:57 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups Other thing abt the biz model that only charges big users (think TripAdvisor): where does THAT $ come from? Ads on THEIR site. #geowebchat Tue Nov 01 18:50:19 +0000 2011

@re_sieber @joeeckert ESRI has donated ARC products for ~ 20 years to NFPs. Another reason why they’ve escaped critique #geowebchat Tue Nov 01 18:51:02 +0000 2011

@joeeckert @re_sieber hrm. seems like there’s cross-fertilization with development literature and “helping” NFPs here. #geowebchat Tue Nov 01 18:52:16 +0000 2011

@re_sieber @mappingmashups prob w APIs, not as easy to pass content back (for mining) and forth (for ads). Easier when it’s your site #geowebchat Tue Nov 01 18:52:29 +0000 2011

@peterajohnson Would charging for API use increase quality of maps? Or just stifle use? Or both? #geowebchat Tue Nov 01 18:53:15 +0000 2011

@re_sieber @joeeckert Yes @ppgis #geowebchat Tue Nov 01 18:53:51 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups @peterajohnson Interesting. Quality of maps hasn’t even entered the discussion! No claim this will help them improve the maps. #geowebchat Tue Nov 01 18:54:26 +0000 2011

@joeeckert @re_sieber which brings us full circle back to “why not ESRI?” ;) #geowebchat Tue Nov 01 18:55:43 +0000 2011

@peterajohnson @mappingmashups just wonder if fee-for-use would filter out crap maps? Keep new users wit Google My Maps vs. roll their own #geowebchat Tue Nov 01 18:56:26 +0000 2011

@re_sieber @peterajohnson Maybe we can learn fom mobile community w iStores, which offers alternative. Do non-free apps improve apps? #geowebchat Tue Nov 01 18:57:50 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups @peterajohnson Oh, I see. Would it improved the crowdsourced data? Hmm. We could charge people $ to submit VGI?! Brilliant! #geowebchat Tue Nov 01 18:57:59 +0000 2011

@peterajohnson @mappingmashups just had the idea that if you have to pay for it, you might invest extra effort/time into design/biz model #geowebchat Tue Nov 01 18:58:03 +0000 2011

@re_sieber @joeeckert If it wasn’t all soooooooo slow. Come on guys, learn optimization, distrib computing! #geowebchat Tue Nov 01 18:58:55 +0000 2011

@peterajohnson @re_sieber If you can charge for an app, you attract a different type of developer to the iStore. Move from hobbyists to pros. #geowebchat Tue Nov 01 18:59:26 +0000 2011

@peterajohnson @mappingmashups no, we want to pay people to contribute VGI. Like huff post, but with real $$. #geowebchat Tue Nov 01 19:00:27 +0000 2011

@re_sieber Nov. 15 for next #geowebchat? Anyone have a topic? Tue Nov 01 19:00:42 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups @peterajohnson @re_sieber Isn’t this just Shirkyian “filter failure”? What’s downside to having as many apps as possible? #geowebchat Tue Nov 01 19:00:47 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups Yes. Please help me out with topic ideas! RT @re_sieber: Nov. 15 for next #geowebchat? Anyone have a topic? Tue Nov 01 19:01:13 +0000 2011

@re_sieber @mappingmashups @peterajohnson Clay Shirky is a verb? What loop am I out of? #geowebchat Tue Nov 01 19:01:40 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups @re_sieber @peterajohnson I may have just coined him as an adjective? #geowebchat Tue Nov 01 19:02:02 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups #geowebchat advice RT @tmcw: Gosh no: do not use the hosted version of OpenLayers. Download it for your website, like the website suggests. Tue Nov 01 19:02:44 +0000 2011

@peterajohnson @mappingmashups filter failure happens all the time. The Internet is a drunk librarian that won’t shut up http://t.co/mAgPDmCY #geowebchat Tue Nov 01 19:03:02 +0000 2011

@re_sieber @mappingmashups @peterajohnson ugh mixing up parts of speech. must be end of #geowebchat Tue Nov 01 19:03:19 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups Okay kiddos, see you in two weeks. Bring your friends, bring your students. It’s been fun! #geowebchat Tue Nov 01 19:03:30 +0000 2011

@re_sieber @peterajohnson @mappingmashups Here’s to drunk librarians everywhere! See u in 2 weeks. #geowebchat Tue Nov 01 19:05:10 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups Next #geowebchat: the art and science (and politics) of geoweb cartography. When and how does a web map’s appearance matter? Join us 11am PT Mon Oct 17 22:47:46 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups Hello everyone, a new #geowebchat is starting in a few minutes. Today’s topic: geoweb cartography. Please don’t be shy and dive right in! Tue Oct 18 17:59:41 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups We’ve talked a lot about the novice/expert spectrum, but we haven’t touched much on that topic vis-a-vis the LOOK of web maps… #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 18:01:14 +0000 2011

@re_sieber Is there an imperialist cartography of the geoweb? e.g., we don’t use the upside down map base of Australia #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 18:02:22 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups …pro. cartographers put lots of effort & experience into their maps, but novices don’t care(?) nor have the tools to do so. #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 18:02:56 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups @re_sieber As if the revenge of mercator isn’t imperialist enough? #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 18:03:27 +0000 2011

@re_sieber @mappingmashups pro cartographers put in a lot of effort into digital earths so novices don’t have to. #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 18:04:05 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups But really, even non-geoweb maps of Australia are never upside down… #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 18:04:09 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups @re_sieber Yes, the experts do do the work for the novices, creating the basemaps and tools. Like the rest of the (geo)web. #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 18:05:14 +0000 2011

@DrHG @re_sieber @mappingmashups before I start, how are we defining “novice”? #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 18:05:50 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups @re_sieber And, there are non-professionals (but, in a way, experts) who create tools & basemaps too. OSM, OpenLayers, etc. #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 18:06:12 +0000 2011

@re_sieber @mappingmashups I find scale invariance of georegistered imagery 2 be imperialistic. Why can’t my map reflect my social network? #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 18:06:15 +0000 2011

@GeoSpeech RT @mappingmashups the LOOK of web maps… #geowebchat the graphic aspect of #cartography lends to a lack of respect for the principles. Tue Oct 18 18:06:32 +0000 2011

@re_sieber @DrHG defining novice is difficult. In geoweb everyone is novice &expert. But novice=someone who can’t read road maps? #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 18:07:47 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups @DrHG @re_sieber I’m using novice vaguely, but mainly I was trying to avoid saying “amateur” which could include non-pro experts #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 18:07:49 +0000 2011

@joeeckert @GeoSpeech How so? #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 18:08:51 +0000 2011

@joeeckert @re_sieber Is that a development issue, or something else? #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 18:09:30 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups @re_sieber I was thinking of novice as someone who can’t MAKE road maps. Reading them… well, what does “reading” mean? :) #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 18:09:52 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups @re_sieber RE scale invariance: again, isn’t that also a problem with non-geoweb maps? Are we expecting too much from geoweb? #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 18:11:32 +0000 2011

@re_sieber @joeeckert GUI/base map is a dev issue but it also becomes a std. So we only look@map as north up, mercator, scale invariant. #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 18:11:39 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups @joeeckert Joe, you are talking about software development “development”? Or… #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 18:12:28 +0000 2011

@re_sieber @mappingmashups why can’t we expect/demand more from interactive, UGC, OS platforms than from paper maps? #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 18:12:59 +0000 2011

@joeeckert @mappingmashups @re_sieber or to get persnickity, what does “making” mean? I use Arc, AI — I am not COGO-on-the-ground. #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 18:13:05 +0000 2011

@joeeckert @mappingmashups @re_seiber referring to the “why we can’t have a scale variant map” — it seems like “because it hasn’t…” #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 18:13:46 +0000 2011

@re_sieber @joeeckert @mappingmashups ugh, “making”, “developing”: how many of us r academics here? :-) #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 18:14:26 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups @joeeckert @re_sieber Good point. Does making a map require collecting data, or is “styling” the map enough? Or adding pins? #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 18:14:48 +0000 2011

@joeeckert @mappingmashups @re_seiber “…been made yet” seems too simple an answer. But why haven’t they been developed? #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 18:14:53 +0000 2011

@re_sieber @joeeckert @mappingmashups Most mental maps are scale variant. We could bld geo-referent grids to accomm scale variance #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 18:15:51 +0000 2011

@joeeckert @re_sieber @mappingmashups haha, no kidding. but this sort of gets at the idea of no unified geoweb again, right? much 2 geotech #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 18:16:22 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups @re_sieber Okay, openlayers & map tiles aren’t scl. invar., but take OSM for example, the data quality is scale variant in a way #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 18:17:48 +0000 2011

@DrHG I’m a new to this. For novices how much is it about using the technologies as they are and how much about improving them? #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 18:17:51 +0000 2011

@re_sieber @mappingmashups @joeeckert Cartography causes us to ask certain questions but not others. So it’s not just add data or style map #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 18:17:56 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups @re_sieber Data resolution, precision, etc in OSM is of 1:5000 quality in some places, 1:100000 in others, in a sense. #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 18:19:28 +0000 2011

@re_sieber @DrHG I’m struggling w this in my #neogeoweb course: how much is end user & how much is soft dev? Geographers must sit between #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 18:19:54 +0000 2011

@DrHG my experience has shown that some novices do things for pure delight – FUN – without the concern for development or contribution #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 18:20:12 +0000 2011

@joeeckert @re_sieber @mappingmashups Sure, or even ask no questions at all. To blithely assume life is made of POIs. #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 18:20:13 +0000 2011

@joeeckert @re_sieber @DrHG Or even whether or not end users need dev to be able to imagine scale-variant maps. :) #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 18:21:21 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups @DrHG That’s where I’d use amateur (return orig. French root) instead of novice. Doing it for fun/love. Doesn’t mean unskilled. #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 18:21:24 +0000 2011

@re_sieber @mappingmashups No I’m talking ab single georeferent grid that allows me 2 “move” my friends closer 2 me on map, even if far away#geowebchat Tue Oct 18 18:21:54 +0000 2011

@joeeckert or to ask it another way — do end users need to have control over the cartography to effectively imagine alternatives? #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 18:22:52 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups @re_sieber @DrHG Thing is, pro. cartographers don’t usually hack tools. It’s just that ArcGIS & Illustrator r more powerful… #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 18:23:13 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups …and that ArcGIS & Illus require more training. Plus the cartographic training that is tool indep. Novices have none of these. #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 18:23:53 +0000 2011

@DrHG @mappingmashups agreed. I have used the term ‘enthusiast’ in order to stand somewhere in between, plus avoid some -ve ideas. #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 18:24:10 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups @DrHG Mmm. I like ‘enthusiast’. #geowebchat. Tue Oct 18 18:24:47 +0000 2011

@re_sieber @joeeckert YES. more technical #neogeoweb becomes, more technically empowered we are. But maybe less cartographically empowered #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 18:26:12 +0000 2011

@DrHG @mappingmashups I signed up to OSM a month ago. I watched tutorials. I am still clueless. Might always be novice status #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 18:26:49 +0000 2011

@AeroSuch RT @mappingmashups: This week’s #geowebchat topic about geoweb cartography should interest all of you #nacis2011 attendees. Please join … Tue Oct 18 18:27:27 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups Geoweb apps are getting more powerful (@geocommons), and trying to package expert knowledge (cartographic AND technical). #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 18:27:33 +0000 2011

@DrHG @re_sieber @joeeckert “democratizing cartography” discuss. #geowebchat #neogeoweb Tue Oct 18 18:28:08 +0000 2011

@DrHG @DrHG @mappingmashups This is where communities of practice come into play … helping novices #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 18:28:51 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups …it’s not just providing tools (rope to hang self with). But instead of training, r we seeing only packaged right answers? #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 18:29:25 +0000 2011

@re_sieber @DrHG @joeeckert Neogeographers don’t see #neogeoweb as democratizing tech; they see it as democratizing cartography. #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 18:30:00 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups @DrHG …and the more complicated the tools (OSM, forex) the more complicated the community of practice #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 18:30:12 +0000 2011

@joeeckert @re_sieber brings me back to thinking about material goods, tile servers, the need for mass transmissions of info, cart limiting #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 18:30:44 +0000 2011

@re_sieber @mappingmashups I think platforms reify a certain cartography. The world looks like Google Maps. #geowebchat. Tue Oct 18 18:31:23 +0000 2011

@joeeckert @re_sieber @DrHG That’s awfully sweeping, isn’t it? Assumes political awareness or interest? #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 18:31:46 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups @re_sieber Time to insert obligatory new term: #neocartography. See: @steev8 #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 18:31:54 +0000 2011

@re_sieber @joeeckert Doesn’t sound like control over cartography to me, although both the map and the tile server are material goods. #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 18:32:52 +0000 2011

@DrHG @mappingmashups Is there an issue here with generosity, trust and sharing? Do the pros mainly see these techs for the pros? #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 18:32:56 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups @re_sieber Even when the world looks like http://t.co/0IpfQaMM it still operates under slippy map logic? #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 18:33:13 +0000 2011

@re_sieber @joeeckert @DrHG sweeping yes, if you listen to @geocommons, the geowankers #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 18:34:03 +0000 2011

@re_sieber @DrHG @mappingmashups Hmmm. Depends on how you define ‘pro’. #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 18:34:58 +0000 2011

@joeeckert @re_sieber Thinking about the $ involved with serving data. Multiple map tiles, georefs = larger expenditures. answer 2 why not? #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 18:35:05 +0000 2011

@re_sieber @mappingmashups it functions with all the methods and properties of the API #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 18:35:46 +0000 2011

@joeeckert @re_sieber @DrHG the most vocal on the internet are not necessarily representative of the amateur – selection bias? #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 18:36:00 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups @joeeckert @re_sieber The only way it’s inexpensive now is that there is no customization. Same tiles for everybody. Henry Ford. #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 18:36:14 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups @joeeckert But, with the recent shifts towards vectors over raster tiles, we might see new potential for customization… #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 18:37:07 +0000 2011

@re_sieber @joeeckert agreed. Tall order but maybe the enthusiasts have to build the platforms. Else everything is driven by effic, interop #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 18:37:24 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups It will be a lot easier to make personal styles, projections, even scale dependence using vectors. #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 18:37:37 +0000 2011

@DrHG @joeeckert common problem w. enthusiasm, often the most vocal are the most active and willing to participate. V true. #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 18:37:58 +0000 2011

@re_sieber @mappingmashups @joeeckert OpenLayers is an alternative, at least for base maps #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 18:38:43 +0000 2011

@DrHG @joeeckert Trying out new research on harnessing enthusiasm of non-participants, as well as silent participants #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 18:39:38 +0000 2011

@re_sieber @DrHG @joeeckert See Muki’s work on how digital divide is perpetuated on OSM. Funny how areas in Brixton never get mapped 2 much #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 18:39:51 +0000 2011

@joeeckert @mappingmashups any links re: the recent shifts toward vectors? very interest. #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 18:40:17 +0000 2011

@joeeckert @re_sieber @DrHG very big fan of Muki’s stuff on that. probably see it reflected more broadly in world history files too #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 18:41:55 +0000 2011

@DrHG @re_sieber @joeeckert dem. cartog. v interesting. key (but not universal?) tool to express “facts”, “ideas”, “hopes” and “dreams #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 18:42:34 +0000 2011

@joeeckert @re_sieber maybe the people that do notice don’t have the time to build the platforms? do we have responsibility here? #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 18:42:51 +0000 2011

@re_sieber @mappingmashups Maybe we’ll see a re-emergence of SVG, which I thought died too young #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 18:43:33 +0000 2011

@joeeckert @re_sieber sure, but there’s still limits to economics of scale there also. just a ? of who’s billed. love OL to death. #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 18:43:56 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups @joeeckert The shift to vector is happening first in mobile: http://t.co/0elHU0Hq #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 18:44:03 +0000 2011

@DrHG @re_sieber @joeeckert Just put together funding app. with @mhaklay on this subject. :-) #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 18:44:11 +0000 2011

@fozy81 @joeeckert My amateur geo is effected by $, both servers and need for workstation to work with data. #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 18:44:57 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups Oh, and here’s something interesting from @stamen and @simplegeo, since you mention SVG. http://t.co/QRlVBrWn #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 18:45:16 +0000 2011

@re_sieber @DrHG @joeeckert Is Google Earth a good platform for dreaming, hoping, imagining? Perhaps we do have an oblig 4 a dream geoweb #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 18:45:23 +0000 2011

@EclipseMaps @mappingmashups Just saw your interesting #geowebchat. I’m ArcGIS pro doing recreational mapping at night, see http://t.co/Ovcb6Qg8 Tue Oct 18 18:45:37 +0000 2011

@DrHG Time is 19.45 in UK and my dinner is ready. Will check in later. Great talking to you all #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 18:46:50 +0000 2011

@joeeckert @re_sieber @DrHG seems like there’s a tension between accessibility (who can dream) vs. possibility (what can be dreamed) #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 18:46:54 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups @EclipseMaps Welcome! As a pro, can we ask if you use the same tools for your rec mapping? Do you interact w/ same communities? #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 18:47:11 +0000 2011

@EclipseMaps My impression is that map principles are universal. Still in early days of web mapping. Remember how primitive HTML was in 90s? #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 18:47:16 +0000 2011

@joeeckert @fozy81 Could you speak more to your workstation needs? I’ve worked on some pretty slow builds. #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 18:47:27 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups @DrHG Thanks for joining us, @DrHG! #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 18:47:30 +0000 2011

@re_sieber @EclipseMaps Back to original topic of chat: are map principles universal? #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 18:48:40 +0000 2011

@EclipseMaps Still, my main peeve is Web Mercator projection. Spherical Earth! And Mercator works only for large scale conformal mapping #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 18:49:01 +0000 2011

@joeeckert @EclipseMaps tile caching:geoweb::blinking font and framed browsers::HTML — hahaha! love it! #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 18:49:29 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups @joeeckert Didn’t @wilsonism mention “access” in a prev. chat? Also, “what can be dreamed” makes me think of Sapir-Whorf hypoth. #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 18:49:57 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups …but not in a bad way. #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 18:50:17 +0000 2011

@re_sieber @EclipseMaps You use OpenLayers? We’re using it 4 our paleoclimate climate modeling GUI #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 18:50:44 +0000 2011

@EclipseMaps @mappingmashups Pretty much dialed into Esri products, curious to learn abt other tools #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 18:51:04 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups @re_sieber @EclipseMaps Even if there are universal principles, are you suggesting that geoweb tools aren’t yet up to the task? #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 18:52:35 +0000 2011

@EclipseMaps @re_sieber Yes map principles are universal. Digital maps have symbolized point/line/poly just like old topographic maps #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 18:53:00 +0000 2011

@joegerlach @DrHG participation perhaps a chance for ‘legending’ (fabulation), a cartography of anticipations, other imaginations #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 18:54:54 +0000 2011

@EclipseMaps @mappingmashups @re_sieber I think people have notion that there is no “map scale” in web maps, but still essential concept #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 18:54:55 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups @EclipseMaps @re_sieber Or point/line/poly like old GIS. Did older paper maps have possibility of more fuzziness sometimes? #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 18:55:03 +0000 2011

@EclipseMaps We’re going through evolution from cached raster tiles to intelligent feature services and geoprocessing services #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 18:56:30 +0000 2011

@joegerlach @re_sieber @DrHG @joeeckert http://t.co/lp6DsnWk #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 18:56:42 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups @joegerlach MyMaps or OpenLayers (if not the OSM basemap) allow for imagined geogs, within a constrained lang of possibility. #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 18:56:43 +0000 2011

@re_sieber @EclipseMaps @mappingmashups Agreed. Scale becomes the scale of data entry/resolution or threshold @ which data appears. #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 18:58:07 +0000 2011

@joegerlach @mappingmashups absolutely, a kind of ‘minor’ geopolitics; not minor insignificant, but reworking major cartog from within #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 18:59:08 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups @EclipseMaps @re_sieber If these novice “people” don’t think of map scale, they at least experience it thru zoom… #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 18:59:41 +0000 2011

@re_sieber @joegerlach @DrHG @joeeckert Interesting article but, wow, that writing style will turn an enthusiast off #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 18:59:48 +0000 2011

@AeroSuch RT @joeeckert: @EclipseMaps tile caching:geoweb::blinking font and framed browsers::HTML — hahaha! love it! #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 19:00:01 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups …but they are clueless about concept of map projections, let along datums, etc. #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 19:00:03 +0000 2011

@fozy81 @joeeckert just to work with quite small geo files can take hours for tile rendering or analysis, felt I needed upgrade #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 19:00:46 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups Anyhow, we have reached the end of the hour. Thanks to everyone for a great chat, with multiple threads & registers! #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 19:01:02 +0000 2011

@joegerlach @re_sieber @DrHG @joeeckert a little overwrought I agree, perhaps misses the everydayness of certain mapping practices #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 19:01:39 +0000 2011

@joegerlach @mappingmashups sorry for the late entry – some great threads here! #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 19:02:22 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups Next meeting will be in two weeks, on November 1. Same time and hashtag. Topic suggestions welcome! #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 19:02:26 +0000 2011

@EclipseMaps Confession: I work at Esri and wrote a book you might know: Modeling Our World. #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 19:02:37 +0000 2011

@re_sieber NEXT MEETING IS WHEN? #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 19:02:39 +0000 2011

@EclipseMaps @mappingmashups Thanks, will try to dial into next session #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 19:03:11 +0000 2011

@re_sieber I suggest November 1, same time (with Greenwich variations), same place (in the cloud) #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 19:03:56 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups Feel free to keep chatting! Special thanks to all the new people: @EclipseMaps @joegerlach @fozy81 @AeroSuch @GeoSpeech @DrHG #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 19:04:22 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups Then future chats will be on 1st and 3rd Tuesday of each month, although Dec 20 might be too close to the holidays… #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 19:05:41 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups …And synchronize to North American 11am Pacific Time (the timezone of the Geoweb, of course!) #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 19:07:06 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups Exactly! #geowebchat RT @joeeckert: @mappingmashups imperialist #geoweb timezone. :P Tue Oct 18 19:11:15 +0000 2011

@AeroSuch @mappingmashups Thanks for hosting, enjoyed it! Some good takeaways for @buildinglayer #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 19:11:49 +0000 2011

@ajturner @joeeckert @re_sieber @drhg everyone has a political/personal interest – #neogeography lets them see and analyze whatever it is #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 19:12:52 +0000 2011

@AndrewShears Crap. I forgot that i’m now in CDT and missed #geowebchat. #lame Tue Oct 18 19:25:42 +0000 2011

@DrHG @joegerlach @re_sieber @joeeckert Cheers for the reference :-) #geowebchat Tue Oct 18 20:35:58 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups A good follow-up for yesterday’s #geowebchat RT @ManoMarks: My latest blog post: Thoughts on vector based mapping: http://t.co/DmNbcHMD Wed Oct 19 20:59:20 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups This week the #geowebchat gets radical: How does the geoweb aid activism, social change & revolution? Is mapping enough? Join us Tue 11a PT Tue Oct 04 01:31:25 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups A recommended reading for this week’s #geowebchat: awe.sm/5WHTZ via @PatrickMeier Tue Oct 04 01:41:42 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups Hi all, welcome back to #geowebchat ! Today we’re talking about activism and the geoweb. What are the possibilities and challenges involved? Tue Oct 04 18:01:08 +0000 2011

@re_sieber #geowebchat neogeo carpet baggers. Map makers & scrapers with no place-base stake. Tue Oct 04 18:02:38 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups We can talk abstractly, or delve into examples: The Arab Spring, for example, has been linked to social media, but what of geo? #geowebchat Tue Oct 04 18:02:50 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups @re_sieber So, you have to be a local to be an activist? #geowebchat Tue Oct 04 18:03:35 +0000 2011

@re_sieber @mappingmashups #geowebchat The Arab Spring, for example, has been linked to social media, but what of geo? Ushahidi is a good example Tue Oct 04 18:04:18 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups @re_sieber Are PGIS/PPGISers carpetbaggers too? #devilsadvocate #geowebchat Tue Oct 04 18:04:24 +0000 2011

@joeeckert hi #geowebchat – if you’re using tweetchat for these, you might check out twitterfall.com — I like the functionality better Tue Oct 04 18:04:49 +0000 2011

@re_sieber @mappingmashups Are PGIS/PPGISers carpetbaggers too? #devilsadvocate #geowebchat Ans: NEVER Tue Oct 04 18:05:05 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups @re_sieber RE: Ushahidi, that brings up @PatrickMeier’s blog post I linked to: awe.sm/5WHTZ Did Ushahidi enable any revolution? #geowebchat Tue Oct 04 18:06:16 +0000 2011

@joeeckert @re_sieber does a place-base stake require a specific scale? what’s the limitation there? now w/#geowebchat hash tag Tue Oct 04 18:07:14 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups @re_sieber Hmm, what would @fake_re_sieber say? #geowebchat Tue Oct 04 18:07:59 +0000 2011

@joeeckert @re_sieber does a place-base stake require a specific scale? what’s the limitation there? now w/ #geowebchat hash tag done correctly Tue Oct 04 18:08:11 +0000 2011

@re_sieber Who’s tweeting is issue. But also Revolution will not be Tweeted http://t.co/Z4ODVwnm virtual 2 physical #geowebchat Tue Oct 04 18:09:08 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups @joeeckert Scale is an interesting point… if we are “enlightened” cosmopolitans, can we claim a stake anywhere? #geowebchat Tue Oct 04 18:09:24 +0000 2011

@bricker @joeeckert #geowebchat I would argue place-base stake holder would require action and/or effect and/or affect Tue Oct 04 18:10:30 +0000 2011

@joeeckert @mappingmashups anywhere? perhaps not, but I think some issues affect everyone – neolib != purely local phenomenon #geowebchat Tue Oct 04 18:11:04 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups & If we are citizens of states that supported injustice (such as US funding of the Mubarak regime) shouldn’t we be involved? #geowebchat Tue Oct 04 18:11:11 +0000 2011

@bricker @mappingmashups what would that look like communicated on a mashup? #geowebchat Tue Oct 04 18:12:50 +0000 2011

@re_sieber @mappingmashups @joeeckert if we r enlightened cosmopolitans, can we claim a stake anywhere? But that’s the ideology of Web 2.0 #geowebchat Tue Oct 04 18:12:55 +0000 2011

@joeeckert @bricker Absolutely agree. Mapping is severely lacking w/o stkholders on the ground. but don’t throw c-bag out w/ the bathwater #geowebchat Tue Oct 04 18:13:10 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups @joeeckert Yeah, you need all the components: software, network/hosting, hardware on the ground (phones) and locals who tweet. #geowebchat Tue Oct 04 18:14:35 +0000 2011

@joeeckert @re_sieber @mappingmashups doubt it. but developing a partnership doesn’t nec. require co-location, does it? #geowebchat Tue Oct 04 18:16:06 +0000 2011

@re_sieber @mappingmashups Should we b involved in countries where we supported dictators? Colonialism x 2? Colonialism 2.0? #geowebchat Tue Oct 04 18:16:21 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups @re_sieber And yes, we have to tackle Gladwell (“Rev will not be Tweeted”). We have to throw out the physical/virtual dichotomy #geowebchat Tue Oct 04 18:16:48 +0000 2011

@joeeckert @mappingmashups that was the big issue i learned working w/@sukeydata – doesn’t work w/o ppl on the ground. #geowebchat Tue Oct 04 18:16:53 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups So yes, social media can help a revolution, but can’t do it alone. Is geoweb same, or is it windowdressing in even more cases? #geowebchat Tue Oct 04 18:17:43 +0000 2011

@joeeckert @re_sieber the question might instead be do those countries want our involvement? goes back to partnerships on the ground #geowebchat Tue Oct 04 18:18:00 +0000 2011

@re_sieber Political blogging has sim prob: intense commenting on some posts. But translate 2 action, protest, influence? No. #geowebchat Tue Oct 04 18:18:32 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups Can be hard to know in advance if people on the ground want help. Any harm in making a geoweb site & seeing if anyone bites? #geowebchat Tue Oct 04 18:19:44 +0000 2011

@joeeckert @mappingmashups windowdressing w/o partnerships – might see that best rep’d by the schism between not-4-prof/for-prof OSM apis. #geowebchat Tue Oct 04 18:20:25 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups …but we have to be careful not to overpromise, to imply we can provide long term support but then leave people in the lurch. #geowebchat Tue Oct 04 18:20:29 +0000 2011

@re_sieber Firedoglake created rubberstamp program. Crowdsource payment of ~600 rubber stamps that were then hand-delivered to US Congress #geowebchat Tue Oct 04 18:20:40 +0000 2011

@joeeckert @re_sieber strongly disagree if you’re stating that as an absolute. sukey, occupywallstreet, etc. #geowebchat Tue Oct 04 18:21:37 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups @re_sieber Hadn’t heard about firedoglake thing, but is crowdsourcing payment anything new? Raising $ has been around a while #geowebchat Tue Oct 04 18:22:23 +0000 2011

@re_sieber @joeeckert @mappingmashups #geowebchat No place-based partnerships means data could b mispresented/mis-geo-coded Was prob in NO post-Katrina Tue Oct 04 18:22:28 +0000 2011

@re_sieber @mappingmashups #geowebchat crowdsourcing payment not new. Delib doing it bc blogging wasn’t accompl phys activism–that’s new Tue Oct 04 18:23:56 +0000 2011

@joeeckert @re_sieber absolutely. curious: what of aggregation of place-based data reported by participants? is usahidi a partnership? #geowebchat Tue Oct 04 18:24:55 +0000 2011

@re_sieber @joeeckert #geowebchat #OccupyWallStreet didn’t begin w blogging, though. Began w @Adbusters, which has history of phys activism Tue Oct 04 18:25:28 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups @re_sieber Good point abt mismapping data, but do you mean content from locals (organized by non-locals?) or non-local content? #geowebchat Tue Oct 04 18:25:38 +0000 2011

@joeeckert @re_sieber some blogging appears to inspire phys activism — adbusters, anon, NYC, occupytogether…or maybe organize it? unsure #geowebchat Tue Oct 04 18:26:13 +0000 2011

@re_sieber @mappingmashups #geowebchat Prob in NO w no-locals mapping school data that misrep’d attributes. Can’t understand attributes wo living there Tue Oct 04 18:28:00 +0000 2011

@joeeckert @re_sieber right, org’d through a CMS (with blog content) and viral through soc. media networks via their own blog posts? #geowebchat Tue Oct 04 18:28:42 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups @re_sieber But is it better than nothing? This arg is raging in OSM: to map any old thing, or wait until it can be done “right”? #geowebchat Tue Oct 04 18:29:38 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups Part of the issue is what we expect from geodata… do we have to treat VGI differently, assume inherent error? #geowebchat Tue Oct 04 18:30:38 +0000 2011

@re_sieber @joeeckert ‘is usahidi a partnership?’ Platform 4 locals 2 place data. Defacto partnership. Locals could b procateurs, though #geowebchat Tue Oct 04 18:30:53 +0000 2011

@joeeckert @re_sieber post-crisis, misinformation exists on the ground as well. still agree here, but pointing out. #geowebchat #devilsadvocate Tue Oct 04 18:31:14 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups (I’m thinking about the OSM mapping of Haiti which is quite analogous to what you’re talking about in N.O., @re_sieber.) #geowebchat Tue Oct 04 18:31:26 +0000 2011

@joeeckert @re_sieber i haven’t looked into every instance, but are locals launching the platform themselves? at least not in haiti. #geowebchat Tue Oct 04 18:32:35 +0000 2011

@re_sieber @mappingmashups map any old thing, or wait until it can be done “right”? #geowebchat. Former not latter. Precision handles former. Tue Oct 04 18:33:11 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups @re_sieber Locals could be provocateurs, true, & what about a repressive gov using the data? Having a map could be risky. #geowebchat Tue Oct 04 18:33:11 +0000 2011

@joeeckert @re_sieber or, #da again, does that make twitter a partnership if tweets are geolocated? currently keeping #ows from trending. #geowebchat Tue Oct 04 18:33:49 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups @re_sieber So if the mapper of the N.O. schools could tag them with metadata: “this is my wild-ass guess” that would work? #geowebchat Tue Oct 04 18:34:19 +0000 2011

@re_sieber @joeeckert #geowebchat Good question & why we need to talk ab Geoweb, not just VGI. Ownership = some kind of app development Tue Oct 04 18:34:36 +0000 2011

@joeeckert and folks at @sukeydata notices the same w/the london protests – not sure that platform = partnership, or even best interests #geowebchat Tue Oct 04 18:35:06 +0000 2011

@joeeckert @re_sieber agreed. hell, is geoweb outdated? what about the web *isn’t* geo? back to @mappingmashups dichotomy #geowebchat Tue Oct 04 18:36:13 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups @joeeckert Well, twitter has divided interests in that it is also in partnership with JPMorgan… #geowebchat Tue Oct 04 18:36:59 +0000 2011

@bricker #geowebchat backing up, 3 jobs? all for diff ppl 1. collect VGI 2. distribute VGI/LBS 3.sexy visualizations. each produce dif results Tue Oct 04 18:37:12 +0000 2011

@re_sieber @mappingmashups @joeeckert Prob when we rely on corporate entities for activism, mobilization. Competing interests. #geowebchat Tue Oct 04 18:39:47 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups @joeeckert How explicit is the geo? Ppl in Arab Spring knew which Tahrir Sq they were talking abt due to context, social links. #geowebchat Tue Oct 04 18:40:06 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups …but if their tweets were geotagged (not sure what % were) then we who don’t know context could get in & map: good or bad. #geowebchat Tue Oct 04 18:41:20 +0000 2011

@re_sieber @joeeckert currently keeping #ows from trending. #geowebchat Is that apocryphal? It could b tested by flooding twitter w same hashtag Tue Oct 04 18:42:38 +0000 2011

@joeeckert @re_sieber sure. but #da again, protesters still uses phones for org. vast p2p infrastructures don’t just spring up – diaspora? #geowebchat Tue Oct 04 18:42:43 +0000 2011

@joeeckert @re_sieber have tweetchat/twitterfall open? pick a trending topic. then pick #occupywallstreet – compare the rate of streams #geowebchat Tue Oct 04 18:44:26 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups Note that @PatrickMeier arg’d that activists in Sudan wanted a map not to organize but to publicize to the world. #tangent #geowebchat Tue Oct 04 18:45:04 +0000 2011

@wilsonism #geowebchat The geography of user-gen content shouldn’t be limited to the presence/absence of geotags. Tue Oct 04 18:45:08 +0000 2011

@re_sieber @joeeckert Cory Doctorows’ Little Brother of grassroots p2p may never arise unfortunately #geowebchat Tue Oct 04 18:45:08 +0000 2011

@joeeckert @re_sieber while that’s less than scientific, it seems evidence that “trending” is either not numerical or something’s fishy #geowebchat Tue Oct 04 18:45:35 +0000 2011

@joeeckert @re_sieber ah, but doesn’t scifi have a history of dealing with the idealized abstract? may never arise, but may well inspire #geowebchat Tue Oct 04 18:46:46 +0000 2011

@re_sieber @mappingmashups @joeeckert #geowebchat ‘Ppl knew which Tahrir ‘ yes, but geoweb is ab spatial distribution of content, not just Tahrir Sq. Tue Oct 04 18:46:47 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups @wilsonism Yes, shouldn’t look only at geotags, but the machine-readable dimension is a crucial affordance for control. #geowebchat Tue Oct 04 18:46:56 +0000 2011

@joeeckert @mappingmashups which is why we have to broaden that definition — resistance. #geowebchat Tue Oct 04 18:47:49 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups I haven’t looked at the trending algorithm… is it like PageRank voodoo these days? #geowebchat Tue Oct 04 18:48:09 +0000 2011

@re_sieber @wilsonism but there has to b geo content to b geog, e.g., placnames r scrapable geotags #geowebchat Tue Oct 04 18:48:42 +0000 2011

@joeeckert @wilsonism totally agree. sure makes the quantitative research easier though. ;) #geowebchat Tue Oct 04 18:48:55 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups @re_sieber So if we demand ab spatial distrib of content, that gives us a line across which we can say some web isn’t in geoweb. #geowebchat Tue Oct 04 18:49:37 +0000 2011

@joeeckert @re_sieber every IP address that doesn’t route through TOR is scrapable if you’re a gatekeeper en route. the resolution is poor. #geowebchat Tue Oct 04 18:50:11 +0000 2011

@wilsonism #geowebchat Agreed, @mappingmashups and @re_sieber I prefer to begin by thinking that UGC occurs in and is productive of place/time. Tue Oct 04 18:50:33 +0000 2011

@re_sieber @mappingmashups important, patterns&processes. Else all web is geog. Discipline can’t b everything. Hope @AAG isn’t listening. #geowebchat Tue Oct 04 18:52:42 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups @re_sieber Well, all the web probably is geog, but if we call it geoweb we’d have to invent “geocoded geoweb” as narrower term. #geowebchat Tue Oct 04 18:54:38 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups Actually, I think I mean s/geocoded geoweb/geotagged geoweb/ #geowebchat Tue Oct 04 18:55:02 +0000 2011

@joeeckert @re_sieber still lost. why is all web not geog? we accept nature + soc and reject the binary. why not with this intertwining? #geowebchat Tue Oct 04 18:55:48 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups (I don’t know why I love the terminology debates so much… I feel like something is wrong with me) #geowebchat Tue Oct 04 18:56:59 +0000 2011

@re_sieber @joeeckert Bc we geographers can b magnanimous and give turf to other disciplines. :-) #geowebchat Tue Oct 04 18:57:31 +0000 2011

@wilsonism #geowebchat IMO, the utility of ‘geoweb’ as a term is the insistence that the web is/has material. Not just focused on technical capacities. Tue Oct 04 18:59:30 +0000 2011

@joeeckert @re_sieber look where that got us with GIS. ;) #geowebchat Tue Oct 04 19:00:01 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups Okay everybody, that’s an hour! This one has been fun… #geowebchat Tue Oct 04 19:01:30 +0000 2011

@re_sieber @wilsonism utility of ‘geoweb’ as material yes + also expands VGI 2 include app dev. Otherwise it’s all lat/long + placenames #geowebchat Tue Oct 04 19:01:31 +0000 2011

@re_sieber @joeeckert MINE MINE. #geowebchat Tue Oct 04 19:02:03 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups Feel free to continue chatting, or we could start off with this next time. We meet again in 2 weeks: October 18, same time. #geowebchat Tue Oct 04 19:02:29 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups Thanks to all of you, and please spread the word (& pressure your students) so more people can carry the weight of conversation. #geowebchat Tue Oct 04 19:03:29 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups After a few weeks of hiatus, welcome back to the geowebchat everyone! If there’s anyone new, please don’t hesitate to jump in! #geowebchat Tue Sep 20 18:01:25 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups The last 10 days saw some big geoweb-related conferences: @openstreetmap’s State of the Map #sotm11… #geowebchat Tue Sep 20 18:02:33 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups …and Free/Open Source Software for Geospatial conf (or #FOSS4G). So there’s a been a lot of talk about “free” and “open”. #geowebchat Tue Sep 20 18:02:59 +0000 2011

@re_sieber One interesting q 4 me: does geoweb have to be both free & open? #geowebchat. Can it just be open, say via APIs Tue Sep 20 18:03:09 +0000 2011

@mvexel Joining #geowebchat about the meaning of ‘free’ and ‘open’ in the wake of #sotm11 and #foss4g. latter had panel on ‘free’ Tue Sep 20 18:03:41 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups Exactly, @re_sieber, people often conflate the two, but there’s a whole tortured history about the diffs between free and open. #geowebchat Tue Sep 20 18:04:29 +0000 2011

@mvexel @re_sieber I’d say open is good enough. #geowebchat Tue Sep 20 18:05:08 +0000 2011

@SkipCody I say use the best tool for the Job! free or cots. Does geoweb have to be both free & open? #geowebchat. Can it just be open, say via APIs Tue Sep 20 18:05:21 +0000 2011

@peterajohnson @re_sieber seems to me that ‘free’, for a lot of people, is a must. Open is optional. #geowebchat Not sure if devs couldn’t fork out some $$ Tue Sep 20 18:05:52 +0000 2011

@mvexel Some of the excellent innovations in the FOSS world would not be here if it were free #geowebchat Tue Sep 20 18:06:06 +0000 2011

@map_maker checking out #geowebchat makes me want to edit #openstreetmap I’m not sure why ;) Tue Sep 20 18:06:06 +0000 2011

@re_sieber @mvexel is geoweb ever free? Still depending on someone’s servers, software, data. Arab Spring found Internet access not free. #geowebchat Tue Sep 20 18:06:49 +0000 2011

@peterajohnson @SkipCody well put. Some tools are simply just worth money because they work so well. Basecamp is a good example #geowebchat Tue Sep 20 18:07:09 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups And we also might have to unpack “free” into “free speech” (aka “libre”) and “free beer” (as in, free of cost). #geowebchat Tue Sep 20 18:07:16 +0000 2011

@mvexel @re_sieber #geowebchat free as in speech yes, free as in beer no Tue Sep 20 18:07:38 +0000 2011

@peterajohnson @re_sieber @mhaklay had a comment weeks ago – the cost of bandwidth could become deciding factor not cost of api/software #geowebchat Tue Sep 20 18:08:58 +0000 2011

@wilsonism #geowebchat Perhaps ‘free’ and ‘open’ are terms that have become so heavy with meaning as to become meaningless. I prefer to talk ‘access’. Tue Sep 20 18:09:19 +0000 2011

@SkipCody Great Point! RT @peterajohnson: @re_sieber @mhaklay the cost of bandwidth could become deciding factor not cost of api/software #geowebchat Tue Sep 20 18:09:51 +0000 2011

@peterajohnson @mappingmashups I’m thinking free beer here works best for geoweb…#geowebchat Tue Sep 20 18:10:09 +0000 2011

@re_sieber #geowebchat: Mediated speech is not free. Not an issue if app doesn’t matter. When it becomes a utility like water.. R we discussing access? Tue Sep 20 18:10:54 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups @peterajohnson Re: the point by @mhaklay, we will then have to consider also the openness and “free speechness” of bandwith. #geowebchat Tue Sep 20 18:11:42 +0000 2011

@mvexel #geowebchat FOSS4G business model: leverage, add value, contribute, see OpenGeo, GeoIQ, Stamen Tue Sep 20 18:11:46 +0000 2011

@re_sieber @wilsonism Agreed. Think we should retain free, open precisely bc of their baggage. Free linked w freedom. #geowebchat Tue Sep 20 18:12:12 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups So, Google’s geo produces seem to be the epitome of the free beer geoweb. It’s not free in terms of licensing, nor always open. #geowebchat Tue Sep 20 18:13:04 +0000 2011

@re_sieber If we talk access then we need to add ‘rights’. A right 2 access Internet? Cell phone network? Geoweb? Spatial Data? #geowebchat Tue Sep 20 18:13:49 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups @re_sieber @wilsonism And of course it leads to acronym bloat, but that’s why I prefer FLOSS over FOSS. I like the libre. #geowebchat Tue Sep 20 18:14:02 +0000 2011

@re_sieber A right to georegistered beer? #geowebchat Tue Sep 20 18:14:27 +0000 2011

@peterajohnson @mappingmashups even if you don’t agree with Google, they’ve raised the profile of ‘geo’. Would our research be as fundable w/o? #geowebchat Tue Sep 20 18:16:08 +0000 2011

@re_sieber Microbrewery Tour in Portland By GPSmyCity.com, Inc. http://t.co/uVFNJpHL #geowebchat Tue Sep 20 18:16:43 +0000 2011

@SkipCody #geowebchat Other then crowdsourced data someone had to pay to create it. What gives us the right to demand free and open? Tue Sep 20 18:16:55 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups @re_sieber What about the right to be accessed/accessible to others? Or the right NOT to be accessed? …leads to privacy issues #geowebchat Tue Sep 20 18:17:18 +0000 2011

@wilsonism #geowebchat And to talk ‘access’ is to talk ‘capacity’, as in the more-than-human capacities to actually engage with and change the geoweb. Tue Sep 20 18:17:24 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups @SkipCody If the data was created by govts (as is often the case) then as taxpayers we have already paid for it. Should be free. #geowebchat Tue Sep 20 18:18:17 +0000 2011

@peterajohnson @re_sieber rights as determined/governed by whom? #geowebchat nice idea, but where/how to implement? Tue Sep 20 18:18:38 +0000 2011

@re_sieber @SkipCody Some utilities like clean water become rights. (geoweb resemble water?) Good pt: why should it be free, open? #geowebchat Tue Sep 20 18:20:06 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups @peterajohnson Absolutely Google has raised profile of geo. & they give us free geodatabeer via ads. Which we in turn rely on. #geowebchat Tue Sep 20 18:20:07 +0000 2011

@peterajohnson @SkipCody If I’m US citizen, then I can have a ‘right’ to US gov data? Can CDNs use it? At the top of all this is gov priorities #geowebchat Tue Sep 20 18:20:28 +0000 2011

@SkipCody #geowebchat gov’s having min budgets demanding free could kill otherwise worth while data project. Minimal cost spread across many users +1 Tue Sep 20 18:20:40 +0000 2011

@re_sieber @mappingmashups @SkipCody Like in Canada: we paid 4 it; we get it. @^&@$&! Crown Copyright Law #geowebchat Tue Sep 20 18:21:17 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups @SkipCody One person’s minimal cost is another person’s burden. “minimal” varies hugely between academia and industry… #geowebchat Tue Sep 20 18:22:01 +0000 2011

@SkipCody @peterajohnson Ok I agree for personal and free use but not for a commercial product. Fair? #geowebchat Tue Sep 20 18:22:32 +0000 2011

@re_sieber @mappingmashups @peterajohnson Our reliance starts to sound like drug addiction. #geowebchat Tue Sep 20 18:22:35 +0000 2011

@SkipCody It is, but cheaper RT @re_sieber: @mappingmashups @peterajohnson Our reliance starts to sound like drug addiction. #geowebchat Tue Sep 20 18:23:51 +0000 2011

@peterajohnson @SkipCody sounds reasonable to me! But is there economic value to making data free that would be squashed? #geowebchat Tue Sep 20 18:24:02 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups A gov’t thinking long term could see free geodata as an infrastructure investment. Not like water, more like rail and roads? #geowebchat Tue Sep 20 18:24:04 +0000 2011

@peterajohnson @re_sieber Google does have some very compelling ‘product’. Plus all the other kids are doing it. #geowebchat Tue Sep 20 18:25:04 +0000 2011

@SkipCody #geowebchat Portland OR, #PDX gives access and a lot of good apps are being created because of it. http://t.co/m9MJ28gX Tue Sep 20 18:25:58 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups MT @mhaklay: @re_sieber point about rights is important. It is not just free but free to elites while closed or walled to others?#geowebchat Tue Sep 20 18:26:03 +0000 2011

@peterajohnson @mappingmashups infrastructure that is rapidly being privatized (water treatment in US). The public good ship has sailed :( #geowebchat Tue Sep 20 18:26:22 +0000 2011

@re_sieber R we talking free, open data or free, open platforms? APIs? Seems there’s a difference. F/O data allows us to create biz models. #geowebchat Tue Sep 20 18:26:49 +0000 2011

@re_sieber @peterajohnson so what’s the gateway drug? Scribble Maps? #geowebchat Tue Sep 20 18:27:45 +0000 2011

@SkipCody Why am I thinking about a cold beer right about now? #geowebchat Tue Sep 20 18:27:55 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups @peterajohnson Agreed about infrastructure (even new) being privatized. PPPs where gov takes the risk and corps get the upside. #geowebchat Tue Sep 20 18:28:02 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups @re_sieber Good point, even if govs are sometimes good at giving us free data, they suck at open APIs & platforms. #geowebchat Tue Sep 20 18:28:45 +0000 2011

@peterajohnson @re_sieber gateway drug is unis using GMaps in geography class to attract non-techies to fill seats to hire TT positions? Zing! #geowebchat Tue Sep 20 18:30:05 +0000 2011

@re_sieber @mappingmashups We shouldn’t emulate corporatization of utilities or local cadasters. If data, we should advocate F/O #geowebchat Tue Sep 20 18:32:21 +0000 2011

@jenterysayers @wilsonism but, when talking about change, even “access” is trivializing, no? access does not imply production or contribution. #geowebchat Tue Sep 20 18:32:40 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups @re_sieber The the utility analogy is also interesting because it has same dynamic of upfront capital costs vs maintenance. #geowebchat Tue Sep 20 18:34:07 +0000 2011

@re_sieber @jenterysayers @wilsonism Lightbulb! We’re thinking old school, access to/consumpt of auth. data here. Not users as producers! #geowebchat Tue Sep 20 18:35:08 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups Creating TIGER the once is expensive, but maintaining it has different cost structure (…sometimes harder for govs to handle) #geowebchat Tue Sep 20 18:35:23 +0000 2011

@wilsonism #geowebchat @jenterysayers I guess I think about ‘access’ as in the capacity to create change, production and consumption. Tue Sep 20 18:35:38 +0000 2011

@peterajohnson @re_sieber @jenterysayers @wilsonism I had this dream once that all national-level geodata could be crowdsourced. Impossible? #geowebchat Tue Sep 20 18:36:33 +0000 2011

@Ondrae Accessible for developers means a well documented API. Accesible for communities means easily digestible apps info in the apps. #geowebchat Tue Sep 20 18:37:25 +0000 2011

@re_sieber Is OSM allowing us to think past F/O data to F/O apps, platforms? Or must we still wrest data from some cold, dead hands? #geowebchat Tue Sep 20 18:37:47 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups @re_sieber Agreed about user/producer issue. That’s why Scribble Maps as gateway drug tripped me up… I thought of GMaps/Earth #geowebchat Tue Sep 20 18:38:16 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups @re_sieber OSM in particular? Could the F/O apps built on OSM have existed built on GMaps? Many of them, yes. #geowebchat Tue Sep 20 18:40:02 +0000 2011

@wilsonism #geowebchat @jenterysayers For me, production connotes creating something from nothing, whereas ‘tinkering’ is powerful & all about access. Tue Sep 20 18:40:06 +0000 2011

@peterajohnson @re_sieber it is easier to wrest that data than to make it (and make it well). Why NOT try to use existing datasets? #geowebchat Tue Sep 20 18:40:58 +0000 2011

@re_sieber @wilsonism Them’s fightin’ words 4 @mappingmashups! Tinkering, map gardening not producing? #geowebchat Tue Sep 20 18:41:47 +0000 2011

@jenterysayers @wilsonism I see. I tend to say literacy (not access) is the capacity to change. Access (open or not) is just the first step. #geowebchat Tue Sep 20 18:42:03 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups @Ondrae Easily digestible apps info and easily modifiable/hackable info? Are developers the only ones who get to hack/produce? #geowebchat Tue Sep 20 18:42:03 +0000 2011

@peterajohnson @re_sieber OSM set a precedent that ‘this can be done’. Changed terms of reference. Now maybe OS would accept user contribution? #geowebchat Tue Sep 20 18:42:46 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups @re_sieber I don’t mind using produsage to include that spectrum of producing, tinkering, hacking, remixing, even reinterpreting #geowebchat Tue Sep 20 18:43:31 +0000 2011

@jenterysayers @wilsonism I’d also say that these days all production begins in media res (see Chun). There’s never something from nothing. #geowebchat Tue Sep 20 18:43:50 +0000 2011

@joeeckert @mappingmashups think anyone can “hack” an app (thinking re: capacity, reappropriation here), but not everyone can produce one #geowebchat Tue Sep 20 18:43:57 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups And I certainly see wiki gardening and map gardening as produsage. #geowebchat Tue Sep 20 18:44:08 +0000 2011

@re_sieber @Ondrae @mappingmashups Think more a prob we academics have, distinguishing VGI from geoweb. But they’re not. All can hack #geowebchat Tue Sep 20 18:45:24 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups @jenterysayers Even literacy feels kinda passive/consumptive, but I think we might be drawing on vocabs from diff disciplines. #geowebchat Tue Sep 20 18:46:22 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups @jenterysayers Even literacy feels kinda passive/consumptive, but I think we might be drawing on vocabs from diff disciplines. #geowebchat Tue Sep 20 18:46:22 +0000 2011

@re_sieber @peterajohnson @mvexel said #sotm had gr8 talk by Bob Barr on how OSM is influencing state open mapping policies, even OS #geowebchat Tue Sep 20 18:47:20 +0000 2011

@wilsonism #geowebchat Agree w/ @jenterysayers re: never something from nothing. My hangups are w/ the concept of ‘production’, which seems limiting. Tue Sep 20 18:49:12 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups @re_sieber Yeah, I loved the talk by @DrBobBarr at #sotm11. Not sure of the video for that is up yet. #geowebchat Tue Sep 20 18:49:21 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups @wilsonism Prodtinkerage? #geowebchat Tue Sep 20 18:49:52 +0000 2011

@joeeckert @wilsonism production as a limiting term has its uses though — begins to separate the VGI from the geoweb a la @re_sieber ‘s pt #geowebchat Tue Sep 20 18:51:36 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups The other thing that we aren’t addressing in the discussion of hacking & tinkering is that it doesn’t always follow the rules… #geowebchat Tue Sep 20 18:51:43 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups …We might design a system that is free/libre/open to encourage tinkerers, but that doesn’t mean they’ll engage… #geowebchat Tue Sep 20 18:52:25 +0000 2011

@re_sieber @wilsonism Think of production as guerrilla re-appropriation of lang of capital. As opposed 2 local knowledge (also limited) #geowebchat Tue Sep 20 18:52:57 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups …and it doesn’t mean (obviously) that people won’t hack a system that is none of free/libre/open. What role for transgression? #geowebchat Tue Sep 20 18:53:13 +0000 2011

@mhaklay @mappingmashups you are assuming that there are rules! That’s the issue with ‘freedom’: without any limits or some ground rules? #geowebchat Tue Sep 20 18:53:31 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups Well, if not rules, perhaps I am talking about laws and TOSes. We have the “legal jiujitsu” of @creativecommons, for example. #geowebchat Tue Sep 20 18:54:45 +0000 2011

@peterajohnson @mhaklay @mappingmashups hah, great point. Geoweb is still very much a wild west, complete with different coloured hats. #geowebchat Tue Sep 20 18:55:27 +0000 2011

@re_sieber @mhaklay @mappingmashups W freedom comes responsibility? Does the access-or bear the responsibility 2 contribute/hack/transgress?#geowebchat Tue Sep 20 18:55:44 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups @peterajohnson Do we have black hat fever to go with our red dot fever? I wish! ht/ @schuyler #geowebchat Tue Sep 20 18:56:42 +0000 2011

@joeeckert @re_sieber it sure seems like OS communities encourage that responsibilization — but I’m not sure it’s a ethical obligation #geowebchat Tue Sep 20 18:57:21 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups Or with freedom do new norms and governing structures (like Wikipedia’s deletionists) start to rein it in again? #geowebchat Tue Sep 20 18:58:20 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups MT @mhaklay: actually, it is about bounded ‘freedom’ that assumes legal structures (e.g. copyright).. Quite important.. #geowebchat Tue Sep 20 18:59:10 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups Well, it looks like we’re hitting the end of our hour here. Thanks all for the vigorous discussion! #geowebchat Tue Sep 20 18:59:53 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups Special thanks to our newcomers this time: @SkipCody @jenterysayers @Ondrae @mvexel @re_sieber @map_maker @williamaubin @Geoteq #geowebchat Tue Sep 20 19:01:46 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups MT @re_sieber: We look to communities of practice to remind ourselves of our responsibilities (Rheingold). Bowl that, Putnam! #geowebchat Tue Sep 20 19:02:29 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups RT @mhaklay: indeed, there is responsibility and obligations. Check this http://t.co/81PqxORU – technology and responsiblity #geowebchat Tue Sep 20 19:02:52 +0000 2011

@re_sieber @peterajohnson twitter chat exhausting but fun. Now bk to the stuff that gets us paid–grant writing (sigh) #geowebchat Tue Sep 20 19:03:09 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups I suggest we meet again in two weeks: Same time, on October 4. #geowebchat Tue Sep 20 19:03:38 +0000 2011

@mappingmashups But if you can’t get enough, next Tuesday try this webinar on geospatial privacy: Tuesday, Sep 27, 1:30 PM EDT bit.ly/oMW4ie #geowebchat Tue Sep 20 19:04:56 +0000 2011

@joeeckert Welcome to Tuesday’s #geowebchat! Anyone out there after all the scheduling snafus? Today’s topic — control and regulation. Tue Aug 23 17:59:13 +0000 2011

@joeeckert What are some ways that control is exerted over geoweb? Data? People? Programming? Economics? How do we integrate this? Can we? #geowebchat Tue Aug 23 18:01:03 +0000 2011

@burnsr77 #geowebchat something else to think abt: what kinds of control does the geoweb *encourage*/provoke/facilitate? Tue Aug 23 18:01:05 +0000 2011

@burnsr77 #geowebchat winner had a very convincing argument that large-scale technol. projects work best when under centralized control Tue Aug 23 18:03:50 +0000 2011

@peterajohnson @burnsr77 well, I think in a best-case scenario it can help shift control from few:many #geowebchat Tue Aug 23 18:04:40 +0000 2011

@joeeckert @peterajohnson in one way it does — expertise limitations shift. sort of. but how much control can many have w/1 programmer? #geowebchat Tue Aug 23 18:05:48 +0000 2011

@burnsr77 @peterajohnson so u think there’s not a centralizing force in eg software dev, etc., but that the majority *controls8 geoweb? #geowebchat Tue Aug 23 18:06:44 +0000 2011

@joeeckert or, in the case of STS studies, how the moment of design helps set the tone for use. or classes a la star’s “sorting things out” #geowebchat Tue Aug 23 18:07:47 +0000 2011

@joeeckert or, to turn it on it’s head, what is the power being afforded the many? at the very least, accessibility seems key. that’s up. #geowebchat Tue Aug 23 18:09:13 +0000 2011

@peterajohnson @joeeckert @burnsr77 just sayin’ that geoweb tech has enabled many + things, including citz involvement in decision-making #geowebchat Tue Aug 23 18:10:03 +0000 2011

@peterajohnson isn’t that a shift in control? From top-down to bottom-up (again, in an ideal case – there are too few real examples). #geowebchat Tue Aug 23 18:10:44 +0000 2011

@peterajohnson @burnsr77 I don’t think the majority controls the geoweb – but there are many uses that help to shift control #geowebchat Tue Aug 23 18:12:42 +0000 2011

@burnsr77 @peterajohnson #geowebchat i see what u mean. the “public’s” behavior is shaped, limited, and conditioned by how geoweb is dev Tue Aug 23 18:12:57 +0000 2011

@joeeckert @peterajohnson not sure that access is control – there’s no property of definition. maybe in #osm we see free definitions, [+] #geowebchat Tue Aug 23 18:12:57 +0000 2011

@burnsr77 @peterajohnson #geowebchat there’s always room for re-appropriation, of course, as wajcman has noted Tue Aug 23 18:13:37 +0000 2011

@joeeckert [+] but even those definitions seem to crystallize over time as proponents push for particular definitions. is that then maj.[+] #geowebchat Tue Aug 23 18:13:55 +0000 2011

@peterajohnson @joeeckert isn’t fix my street a good example? Puts the screws to decision-makers? #geowebchat Tue Aug 23 18:14:02 +0000 2011

@joeeckert [+] control, or is that an example of adherence to norms? #geowebchat Tue Aug 23 18:14:35 +0000 2011

@joeeckert @peterajohnson sure, and I love it! any idea what the gov’t response is though? and the site itself is still owned, coded, etc. #geowebchat Tue Aug 23 18:17:07 +0000 2011

@joeeckert i guess the point i’m trying to make is that there are several gatekeeping mechanisms that sharply limit “full” control. these+ #geowebchat Tue Aug 23 18:18:54 +0000 2011

@joeeckert [+] ought to be highlighted, or at least acknowledged alongside a discourse of “for the many” — few actually profit. #geowebchat Tue Aug 23 18:19:26 +0000 2011

@burnsr77 anyone read n fraser? underused in geoweb. talks abt needs e.g. the conditions under which people are limited when talking needs #geowebchat Tue Aug 23 18:19:30 +0000 2011

@peterajohnson @joeeckert tough to say what the total impact of fms is. But if see fix click is any indication, govs are interested #geowebchat Tue Aug 23 18:19:31 +0000 2011

@bricker #geowebchat I’m following VGI related to the earthquake right now! Tue Aug 23 18:20:18 +0000 2011

@peterajohnson @joeeckert yeah, but ‘full control’ is a requirement for what exactly? Do citizen groups even want full control? #geowebchat Tue Aug 23 18:20:43 +0000 2011

@burnsr77 for me this means that code and software set the conditions in which people *must* express needs. so for FMS, the tech limits #geowebchat Tue Aug 23 18:20:53 +0000 2011

@joeeckert @bricker where are you following it? #geowebchat Tue Aug 23 18:21:23 +0000 2011

@burnsr77 does “full control” exist? or does it work in a more distributed manner? #geowebchat Tue Aug 23 18:21:31 +0000 2011

@burnsr77 @bricker send links! :) #geowebchat Tue Aug 23 18:21:49 +0000 2011

@joeeckert @peterajohnson i don’t think it’s a requirement — but i do think it’s disingenuous to only present the techno-utopian side. ;) #geowebchat Tue Aug 23 18:22:34 +0000 2011

@joeeckert @peterajohnson an attention to code/design shows how certain comm. choices can be “coded” out of existence. rarely discussed imo #geowebchat Tue Aug 23 18:23:47 +0000 2011

@burnsr77 also, control isn’t just about limiting; it’s also enabling and productive. so ppl using FMS may re-appropriate in some ways #geowebchat Tue Aug 23 18:25:46 +0000 2011

@peterajohnson @joeeckert I’m not denying that this happens or that it is an issue. Just trying to bring it down to earth #geowebchat Tue Aug 23 18:26:18 +0000 2011

@joeeckert @peterajohnson for sure. we’ve sort of seen this through PPGIS methodology experiments, on a empirical level. people tend to[+] #geowebchat Tue Aug 23 18:28:50 +0000 2011

@joeeckert [+] choose what they’re given. i think there’s a grounded effect here. and thankfully due to accessibility, we can look into it #geowebchat Tue Aug 23 18:29:46 +0000 2011

@joeeckert so i guess there’s that — researchers certainly have a lot to gain from UGC. maybe that’s why we’re dog-piling on it. :) #geowebchat Tue Aug 23 18:31:54 +0000 2011

@burnsr77 what abt OSM vs. MapMaker? does control matter there? #geowebchat #geowebchat Tue Aug 23 18:31:56 +0000 2011

@bricker #geowebchat @joeeckert are you saying that the only way people can become truly empowered is to become programmers? Tue Aug 23 18:32:45 +0000 2011

@burnsr77 control in: design, data ownership, legal structures, what’s mappable #geowebchat Tue Aug 23 18:33:12 +0000 2011

@burnsr77 @bricker but i don’t think someone is either A)empowered or B)not empowered. differing degrees, capacities, etc #geowebchat Tue Aug 23 18:34:04 +0000 2011

@joeeckert @bricker wasn’t my argument, but that’s been expressed before. code or be coded? i don’t think that’s the only route, but [+] #geowebchat Tue Aug 23 18:34:13 +0000 2011

@joeeckert @bricker [+] I definitely see that as one of the bottlenecks in the road toward empowerment. Hardware’s just as bad. Servers = $ #geowebchat Tue Aug 23 18:34:47 +0000 2011

@bricker I know that argument well and that is where it feels this convo goes each week #geowebchat Tue Aug 23 18:35:56 +0000 2011

@joeeckert @burnsr77 OSM v. MapMaker derails accessibility of data all together. so that’s a huge difference (legal + social) #geowebchat Tue Aug 23 18:36:03 +0000 2011

@peterajohnson @joeeckert well, in a way. Analyzing a UG dataset is not very easy. Much easier for research to use trad. data methods. #geowebchat Tue Aug 23 18:36:14 +0000 2011

@peterajohnson @joeeckert but what are you serving? Most webhosting is cheap these days. No one needs their own server = less control. #geowebchat Tue Aug 23 18:37:28 +0000 2011

@joeeckert @bricker hm. wasn’t what i was trying to convey, so apologies there. crit. minded design is def. possible. problem seems [+] #geowebchat Tue Aug 23 18:38:34 +0000 2011

@joeeckert [+] to me to be one of finding one willing to work on the cheap. but that’s what grad students are for, neh? ;) #geowebchat Tue Aug 23 18:38:53 +0000 2011

@joeeckert @peterajohnson tiles tend to be awfully big. i think there’s a control implication if amazon is running your server. wikileaks? #geowebchat Tue Aug 23 18:40:06 +0000 2011

@burnsr77 this actually gets to the heart of the issue, i think: does it matter if amazon controls your server-space, datasets, etc? #geowebchat Tue Aug 23 18:41:11 +0000 2011

@peterajohnson @joeeckert apples and oranges meets the conspiracy theory. Avg. community group using geoweb isn’t whistleblowing state secrets #geowebchat Tue Aug 23 18:41:52 +0000 2011

@burnsr77 actually, rather than “does it matter” i’d ask “what are the implications of…” #geowebchat Tue Aug 23 18:41:55 +0000 2011

@burnsr77 wow, conspiracy theory? #geowebchat Tue Aug 23 18:42:34 +0000 2011

@peterajohnson @joeeckert sure, if you are hosting your own imagery. I’m thinking of groups just using osm or google maps base #geowebchat Tue Aug 23 18:42:55 +0000 2011

@joeeckert @peterajohnson sorry, to clarify: amazon has the ability to shut down a server for whatever reason they choose. external ctrl. #geowebchat Tue Aug 23 18:42:57 +0000 2011

@peterajohnson @burnsr77 it only matters if it keeps you from doing what you want to do. #geowebchat Tue Aug 23 18:43:25 +0000 2011

@peterajohnson @burnsr77 it only matters if it keeps you from doing what you want to do. #geowebchat Tue Aug 23 18:43:25 +0000 2011

@bricker @peterajohnson @burnsr77 #geowebchat have you heard of amazon manipulating data hosted on their servers? Tue Aug 23 18:45:15 +0000 2011

@burnsr77 @peterajohnson sorry, not to be standoffish, but that’s actually far from true – decades sociological work show that concern [+] #geowebchat Tue Aug 23 18:45:57 +0000 2011

@burnsr77 [+] is unrelated to one’s own activity #geowebchat Tue Aug 23 18:46:14 +0000 2011

@joeeckert @bricker not manipulating data, but I think their response to state i’net taxation (pull out) leaves small biz in the lurch #geowebchat Tue Aug 23 18:47:16 +0000 2011

@joeeckert @bricker not manipulating data, but I think their response to state i’net taxation (pull out) leaves small biz in the lurch #geowebchat Tue Aug 23 18:47:16 +0000 2011

@burnsr77 @bricker manipulation is only one implication among many of control. #geowebchat Tue Aug 23 18:47:29 +0000 2011

@peterajohnson @burnsr77 sorry, concern about what? Losing the thread with all the double tweets here #geowebchat Tue Aug 23 18:47:34 +0000 2011

@peterajohnson @burnsr77 sorry, concern about what? Losing the thread with all the double tweets here #geowebchat Tue Aug 23 18:47:34 +0000 2011

@joeeckert @bricker i could see geoweb regulation limiting similar functions. their server outage in april was another reminder. #geowebchat Tue Aug 23 18:48:38 +0000 2011

@burnsr77 @peterajohnson sry, meant to say concern with diff kinds of control: policing activity, or here we could say data/srvr control #geowebchat Tue Aug 23 18:50:15 +0000 2011

@bricker @joeeckert #geowebchat server outages happen to everyone unfortunately Tue Aug 23 18:50:29 +0000 2011

@joeeckert @bricker totally with you. and it belies a world external to a project that can still effect its ability to affect change. #geowebchat Tue Aug 23 18:51:45 +0000 2011

@joeeckert @bricker def. a different control than data, but i think it’s important to look at the entire “web” for further implications #geowebchat Tue Aug 23 18:52:32 +0000 2011

@bricker @joeeckert #geowebchat so then paper based PPGIS projects are better fit for change? Tue Aug 23 18:53:21 +0000 2011

@peterajohnson @burnsr77 agree it is a big issue. Is trend towards more open or more restrictive? Isn’t data/servers more open now? #geowebchat Tue Aug 23 18:54:22 +0000 2011

@joeeckert @bricker not sure I can generalize, but I think it allows “the bottom” further capability to define their issues. that [+] #geowebchat Tue Aug 23 18:55:05 +0000 2011

@joeeckert @bricker [+] it frees up some of the issues from “sorting things out” that seem a weakness of prev. web based ppgis #geowebchat Tue Aug 23 18:56:20 +0000 2011

@joeeckert @bricker seems like (maybe false dichotomy here) a trade off between the freedom to define and the ability to reach lg #s of ppl #geowebchat Tue Aug 23 18:56:53 +0000 2011

@bricker @joeeckert #geowebchat I think in some cases you are right. Tue Aug 23 18:57:54 +0000 2011

@bricker @joeeckert #geowebchat there is still value in allowing/inviting participants to input their own data directly to the database Tue Aug 23 18:58:33 +0000 2011

@joeeckert @bricker sort of what RE was after with the rewiring for a GIS/2? and i agree, there’s definitely TONS of value in self-input #geowebchat Tue Aug 23 18:59:28 +0000 2011

@burnsr77 @peterajohnson not sure re:open/restrictive… definitions of “open” changing? eg, is MapMaker “open”? hmm…. #geowebchat Tue Aug 23 18:59:46 +0000 2011

@peterajohnson @bricker @joeeckert there is a LOT of value in that and I think most of it appears offline in communities supported by geoweb #geowebchat Tue Aug 23 19:00:29 +0000 2011

@joeeckert @bricker i’m just terrified that the “input of the people” obscures the mechanics that enable/constrain it. not sure that’s good #geowebchat Tue Aug 23 19:00:42 +0000 2011

@bricker @joeeckert #geowebchat that is what she was after in that paper, it is so cool to see real life examples of it now Tue Aug 23 19:01:20 +0000 2011

@joeeckert especially if our intention is to use these tools ourselves — I think we owe it to our partners to consider both ends. #geowebchat Tue Aug 23 19:01:31 +0000 2011

@burnsr77 thanks everyone for contributing this week! #geowebchat Tue Aug 23 19:02:08 +0000 2011

@joeeckert @bricker i’m not sure the real-life examples meet the ideal she set out…but we’re closer, at least. #geowebchat Tue Aug 23 19:02:54 +0000 2011

@bricker @joeeckert #geowebchat agreed, we do owe it to everyone involved to view both ends Tue Aug 23 19:03:00 +0000 2011

@peterajohnson @burnsr77 put simply much more data available publicly now. Tools also easier and more accessible isgd? #geowebchat Tue Aug 23 19:03:06 +0000 2011

@burnsr77 heading out… tweet with you all again soon #geowebchat Tue Aug 23 19:03:06 +0000 2011

@bricker @burnsr77 #geowebchat @joeeckert @peterajohnson thanks for a fun chat! until next time… Tue Aug 23 19:04:15 +0000 2011

@joeeckert welp, gang, thanks so much for coming to #geowebchat! see you next time around. #geowebchat Tue Aug 23 19:04:39 +0000 2011

@peterajohnson Welcome everyone to another #geowebchat hour! Today we are talking about participation in the Geoweb/VGI. Tue Aug 16 18:00:44 +0000 2011

@peterajohnson Participation is essential to the Geoweb. But what happens when valued contributors leave? Can participation be sustained? #geowebchat Tue Aug 16 18:01:21 +0000 2011

@peterajohnson The recent talk of Wikipedia losing contributors got me thinking about participation – is there a shelf life to participation? #geowebchat Tue Aug 16 18:03:29 +0000 2011

@joeeckert Checking into #geowebchat. Hi, gang! Tue Aug 16 18:03:34 +0000 2011

@bricker @peterajohnson #geowebchat I think it depends on the project, does this question imply that not all contributors are valued? Tue Aug 16 18:04:09 +0000 2011

@bricker @peterajohnson #geowebchat I hope that did not sound sarky Tue Aug 16 18:04:35 +0000 2011

@joeeckert @peterajohnson — could you share those links one more time? particularly the slashdot re: wikipedia? now w/#geowebchat Tue Aug 16 18:04:37 +0000 2011

@burnsr77 hi everyone! it seems, on a superficial level, that we’re wondering if geoweb is a trend or a sustained social movement? #geowebchat Tue Aug 16 18:05:11 +0000 2011

@peterajohnson Wikipedia losing contributors: http://t.co/FCPfOv0 #geowebchat Tue Aug 16 18:05:32 +0000 2011

@joeeckert @peterajohnson there’s evidence from non-technical arenas that expectation causes burnout. herbert’s “trapdoor of community” #geowebchat Tue Aug 16 18:06:08 +0000 2011

@burnsr77 i mean, given that wikipedia is losing contribs… seems it might be due partly to it losing “wow-value” #geowebchat Tue Aug 16 18:06:10 +0000 2011

@peterajohnson @bricker well, not all contributions are equal, so yes, I’m sure that some Geoweb sites wouldn’t mind fewer contributors #geowebchat Tue Aug 16 18:06:45 +0000 2011

@peterajohnson “@strawberrycough: “moves to other ventures.” ones with a paycheck attached. how long can you expect people to work for free?” #geowebchat Tue Aug 16 18:07:42 +0000 2011

@peterajohnson @burnsr77 once everyone is doing it, it loses some cachet? #geowebchat Tue Aug 16 18:09:03 +0000 2011

@joeeckert @peterajohnson oh? what makes some contributions more valuable than others? and by what criteria? and whose value? #geowebchat Tue Aug 16 18:09:49 +0000 2011

@joeeckert @peterajohnson one of the comments was thought provoking — the “magic 95%” as a barrier to participation. #geowebchat Tue Aug 16 18:10:53 +0000 2011

@peterajohnson @joeeckert w/OSM contributing errors is still contributing. Just requires clean up. #geowebchat but yeah, its a judgement call re:errors Tue Aug 16 18:12:09 +0000 2011

@joeeckert think the “magic 95%” is an epistemological issue, particularly for the geoweb. limited to cartesian, there’s only so many trees #geowebchat Tue Aug 16 18:12:16 +0000 2011

@bricker @peterajohnson @joeeckert #geowebchat errors and relevance? I have seen some spam and just off topic contributions as well Tue Aug 16 18:13:26 +0000 2011

@joeeckert @peterajohnson but an appeal to accuracy is only one criteria of value. this might be where vgi departs from PPGIS. #geowebchat Tue Aug 16 18:13:36 +0000 2011

@joeeckert @peterajohnson which in fact could hamper participation from those afraid of “doing it wrong”. seen that in many mapping parties #geowebchat Tue Aug 16 18:14:17 +0000 2011

@peterajohnson @bricker is max participation the goal, or is quality contributions from the ‘right’ audience the goal? Depends, of course. #geowebchat Tue Aug 16 18:14:57 +0000 2011

@peterajohnson @joeeckert Yes! Contributors are valuable and need to be ‘cultivated’ and ‘maintained’. Seen this in all types of vol. groups #geowebchat Tue Aug 16 18:16:33 +0000 2011

@burnsr77 @peterajohnson yup – depends on particular context. #geowebchat Tue Aug 16 18:16:37 +0000 2011

@joeeckert @bricker spam/off-topic/vandalism is an issue, but less than wikipedia for #osm more worried about deification of accuracy #geowebchat Tue Aug 16 18:17:08 +0000 2011

@joeeckert @peterajohnson cultivated & maintained? by whom? this seems to benefit only one particular sort of user: those with v. capital #geowebchat Tue Aug 16 18:18:59 +0000 2011

@peterajohnson so, how long CAN we expect people to work for free? Especially once Geoweb isn’t shiny new toy? #geowebchat Tue Aug 16 18:19:22 +0000 2011

@joeeckert @peterajohnson people maintain their own hobbies “for free” constantly. how long before this is no longer “fun” to users? #geowebchat Tue Aug 16 18:20:50 +0000 2011

@peterajohnson @joeeckert not at all – comm groups spend a LOT of time maintaining and cultivating vols. Just takes time, personal interest #geowebchat Tue Aug 16 18:20:53 +0000 2011

@burnsr77 @peterajohnson good q., but again it really depends on context. 4sq? until the next cool thing comes. OSM? very different #geowebchat Tue Aug 16 18:20:58 +0000 2011

@peterajohnson @joeeckert man, my hobbies actually cost ME money. I’d love one that was free! #geowebchat Tue Aug 16 18:21:34 +0000 2011

@bricker @peterajohnson @joeeckert #geowebchat I think personal interest is key, people are only going to contribute when they care Tue Aug 16 18:22:00 +0000 2011

@peterajohnson @joeeckert but you are right, fun and reward change over time for contributors, so having x ways to ‘pay’ them matters. #geowebchat Tue Aug 16 18:22:52 +0000 2011

@bricker @burnsr77 @peterajohnson #geowebchat in terms of gaming people need achievable goals, 4sq offers rewards=coupons&badges Tue Aug 16 18:23:21 +0000 2011

@joeeckert @peterajohnson true. and no hobby is ever “free” if you believe time has value. #geowebchat Tue Aug 16 18:23:25 +0000 2011

@bricker @peterajohnson @joeeckert #geowebchat I <3 gamification! Tue Aug 16 18:23:40 +0000 2011

@peterajohnson @joeeckert well, time is the one thing that we will all run out of, so yes, there is value in it! #geowebchat Tue Aug 16 18:23:59 +0000 2011

@joeeckert i also think our #geowebchat is rather #osm centric. consider waze’s “contributions”. larger $$$ forces at play here. #geowebchat Tue Aug 16 18:25:09 +0000 2011

@joeeckert </3 gamification (sorry). reduction of what I would hope would be thoughtful practice down to behavioral feedback loops #geowebchat Tue Aug 16 18:25:57 +0000 2011

@peterajohnson participants could want $, games, status, intrinsic reward, + more (all?) from Geoweb. Aren’t some of these mutually exclusive? #geowebchat Tue Aug 16 18:26:59 +0000 2011

@burnsr77 every app i open on my iPhone asks to use my location. just throwin that out there. #geowebchat Tue Aug 16 18:27:09 +0000 2011

@joeeckert or compare the contrib. of #geocommons vs. #osm. again, the playing field for contributors is diff. code shapes participation #geowebchat Tue Aug 16 18:28:08 +0000 2011

@peterajohnson @burnsr77 so you participate and get to use app as a reward? #geowebchat Tue Aug 16 18:28:59 +0000 2011

@bricker @joeeckert #geowebchat not just code, UI even more so Tue Aug 16 18:29:10 +0000 2011

@burnsr77 @bricker certainly both are very influential in shaping contributions. i’m thinking about how code/UI/software shapes behavior #geowebchat Tue Aug 16 18:30:15 +0000 2011

@peterajohnson @joeeckert and developers/companies shape code…#geowebchat Let’s not give code its own agency here. #osm and #geocommons diff goals Tue Aug 16 18:30:21 +0000 2011

@burnsr77 @peterajohnson hmm, is the reward the usage? probably on some level, but like @bricker pointed out 4sq for instance gives badges #geowebchat Tue Aug 16 18:31:03 +0000 2011

@burnsr77 badges & points #geowebchat Tue Aug 16 18:31:13 +0000 2011

@bricker @burnsr77 #geowebchat I am interested in the same however I am interested in how it shapes learning and knowledge formation Tue Aug 16 18:32:36 +0000 2011

@burnsr77 @peterajohnson re:developers, understand why u say that; but 1 reason code/software is so powerful is bc it is *given* agency #geowebchat Tue Aug 16 18:32:47 +0000 2011

@peterajohnson @burnsr77 but by giving location, you are participating (passively). And the reward is inclusion in group (4sq, for instance). #geowebchat Tue Aug 16 18:32:56 +0000 2011

@burnsr77 not to open that can of worms #geowebchat Tue Aug 16 18:33:17 +0000 2011

@joeeckert @peterajohnson that’s a whole rabbit hole to delve down, but I disagree — automated code does work within the world. #geowebchat Tue Aug 16 18:33:45 +0000 2011

@peterajohnson @burnsr77 hah, yeah, I’d like to take that tweet back if I could – too much to cover 140 chars at a time #geowebchat Tue Aug 16 18:34:14 +0000 2011

@burnsr77 @peterajohnson lol, no worries ;P #geowebchat Tue Aug 16 18:35:09 +0000 2011
#geowebchat Tue Aug 16 18:36:12 +0000 2011

@joeeckert @peterajohnson @burns77 rotfl. couldn’t agree more. #geowebchat

@peterajohnson surprised we haven’t gotten to what participation actually is – passive vs. active. Do you have to click to participate? #geowebchat Tue Aug 16 18:37:17 +0000 2011

@joeeckert @peterajohnson but the implied point that developers have a disproportionate amount of control over community well recieved #geowebchat Tue Aug 16 18:37:34 +0000 2011

@peterajohnson @joeeckert excellent…maybe a topic for future #geowebchat Tue Aug 16 18:38:51 +0000 2011

@joeeckert @peterajohnson but I’d probably extend that again to the people employing the developers and attendant webs of capital #geowebchat Tue Aug 16 18:38:58 +0000 2011

@burnsr77 @peterajohnson the ethical implications for that q are rich #geowebchat Tue Aug 16 18:40:35 +0000 2011

@joeeckert @peterajohnson certainly don’t need to click to “contribute” — participate? depends on definition of that term. #geowebchat Tue Aug 16 18:42:11 +0000 2011

@peterajohnson @burnsr77 Is clicking registering your e-presence? #geowebchat Tue Aug 16 18:42:58 +0000 2011

@burnsr77 @peterajohnson i.e., under what conditions is passive data generated? under what conditions are clicks made necessary, etc? #geowebchat Tue Aug 16 18:44:10 +0000 2011

@burnsr77 don’t know if that makes sense #geowebchat Tue Aug 16 18:44:23 +0000 2011

@bricker @burnsr77 @peterajohnson #geowebchat there are lots of conditions when passive data is generated. Tue Aug 16 18:46:26 +0000 2011

@burnsr77 @peterajohnson @bricker re:e-registering, we talking about 4sq? other sites might depend on the e-registering to operate #geowebchat Tue Aug 16 18:47:29 +0000 2011

@peterajohnson @burnsr77 if a twitter feed is scraped and used to locate protest location did the tweeters participate in that surveillance? #geowebchat Tue Aug 16 18:47:38 +0000 2011

@burnsr77 @peterajohnson that is a great question to ask. dissertation anyone? ;) #geowebchat Tue Aug 16 18:48:30 +0000 2011

@bricker @burnsr77 @peterajohnson #geowebchat what if you forget you e-registered? ex. iPhone photos that are geotagged Tue Aug 16 18:49:34 +0000 2011

@burnsr77 i think many of these questions we’re asking really deserve some critical, nuanced discussion. there’s a huge need for us. #geowebchat Tue Aug 16 18:49:46 +0000 2011

@peterajohnson @burnsr77 I guess one underlying Q is how participation can be affected by unauthorized/unanticipated use of your contribution#geowebchat Tue Aug 16 18:50:44 +0000 2011

@peterajohnson @burnsr77 I guess one underlying Q is how participation can be affected by unauthorized/unanticipated use of your contribution #geowebchat Tue Aug 16 18:53:13 +0000 2011

@peterajohnson @burnsr77 well, I think that picking some good examples and developing case study research is an important direction #geowebchat Tue Aug 16 18:54:38 +0000 2011

@bricker @peterajohnson Thanks for leading this Pete! gotta skip out early. Excellent #geowebchat all! ciao. Tue Aug 16 18:55:56 +0000 2011

@peterajohnson @burnsr77 and talking to actual participants and developers to see how things play out in the real world #geowebchat Tue Aug 16 18:56:23 +0000 2011

@peterajohnson Nama Budhathoki writes about #osm community and participation in his thesis. http://t.co/5bcdVyX #geowebchat Tue Aug 16 18:58:35 +0000 2011

@burnsr77 @peterajohnson sorry, confused… i meant to say that most of these questions have no simple yes/no answer, rather must be… #geowebchat Tue Aug 16 18:58:41 +0000 2011

@burnsr77 @peterajohnson …and engaged, nuanced across diff platforms and contexts #geowebchat Tue Aug 16 18:59:07 +0000 2011

@peterajohnson @burnsr77 @joeeckert @bricker thanks everyone for a good chat – definitely lots of future directions laid out. See you next week #geowebchat Tue Aug 16 19:01:19 +0000 2011

@joeeckert see you next week, @peterajohnson! @burns77 and I will be hosting up the next one in @mappingmashup ‘s absence. #geowebchat Tue Aug 16 19:02:16 +0000 2011