Dr. Herman Williams thought his dreams were over when health issues forced him out of surgical residency, but that crisis became the turning point that led him to his real calling. In this raw conversation, he shares how sometimes our greatest failures become the foundation for a life we never imagined.

About Herman Williams

Herman Williams is currently the President of HW Healthcare Solutions (HWHS), a Nashville-based healthcare consulting firm specializing in key management solutions for Hospitals, Physician practices, and other Healthcare entities. He was formally the Chief Physician Executive of The Hardenbergh Group, the leading provider of healthcare professional staffing, providing consulting services, and assisting with External Peer Review. He also served in the role of Managing Director for the Nashville Healthcare practice as well as Chief Physician Executive for all of BDO USA, the fifth largest professional services firm in the United States.

He brings more than 25 years of healthcare leadership and management experience in medical staff consulting, strategic planning, Executive Coaching, and hospital operations as a senior physician executive. Dr. Williams’ operational roles include oversight of rural, urban, Community, Academic, for-profit, and Non-profit Healthcare Organizations. He has overseen medical staff operations in over 43 facilities in 30 states throughout his career.

Education

M.D. – Boston University School of Medicine, Boston, MA

M.B.A. – University of Washington, Seattle, WA

M.P.H. – Harvard School of Public Health, Boston, MA

B.A. – Amherst College, Amherst, MA

Transcript

Dr Herman Williams 0:00

I refuse to be disabled. I refuse to be a victim of my medical diagnosis. And I just made a decision there that I was going to rehab myself and I was going to find another career.

Marc Wolfe 0:12

Welcome to the Yeah, But Podcast where leaders transform excuses into breakthroughs. I’m Marc Wolfe, host and author of Yeah, But. I interview New York Times best selling authors, human rights activist, former CIA director, and everyone in between our guests share how they overcome doubts. Like I’m not ready to Yeah, but I don’t have time join us to learn how you can do the same. Our guest today is Dr. Herman Williams. Dr Williams, I’d love our guests to know a lot about who you are, and tell me two things about you personally, so people can jump in and know a little bit more about you.

Dr Herman Williams 0:50

Let’s see two personal things. One is 33 years ago, and 30 days I suffered a cardiac arrest, and that changed the whole trajectory of my life, and it really shapes how I approach things now through gratitude, because I was able to be resuscitated. The second thing is, is I use that gratitude to try and give to others, and hopefully they can benefit from the lessons that I’ve learned.

Marc Wolfe 1:22

Wow. Thank you for that. And tell us two things about you professionally.

Dr Herman Williams 1:27

Professionally, I was trained as an orthopedic surgeon and was a chief medical officer for some time after that, and essentially the second thing would be that I’ve taken all of that and put into a consulting practice to try and teach others again what I’ve learned throughout my career. Okay? And because our audience is getting to know you, how does this apply? Or what can they come away with? Those two things right away? Well, I’m just a normal guy, just your average guy went out and thought he was going to be a superstar orthopedic surgeon and then had a life threatening event that kind of humbled me. And there’s just a lot there that are born, that I’ve been able to put into practice to try and have a happy, fulfilling life. So that’s the message overall,

Marc Wolfe 2:21

Thank you for that. And you know, I’ve known you a few years, and I’m still getting to learn more about you, often, just from our conversations, and just because, as you get to know people, you get to see them in a different light. So let’s just kick it off, like tell me about a Yeah, but that you have, that you’re willing to share.

Dr Herman Williams 2:44

Well, first of all, I think you’ve done a great job in your book by identifying the yeah bots, giving examples, giving case studies, and then allowing people an opportunity to jot down their own interpretation. So was beautifully done. But one of the year, but I chose was number five, Yeah, but I don’t know what to do next.

Marc Wolfe 3:07

What does that look like this? Yeah, but what do I need to do next? Yeah, I’m not a doctor. I didn’t go through what you went through as an event. But how does it make me feel as a person, and what can I take away. I mean, even if I reflect on my path to get to medical school, which I kind of joked around and take school seriously, but still thought it was going to be a slam dunk, getting into med school, it wasn’t. And so after I got my first round of rejections, because, you know, you apply to like 15 schools.

Dr Herman Williams 3:43

When I got to 14, and I was looking at the 15th envelope, and I’m like, this is really thin. Doesn’t feel like a registration packet. You go, Yeah, but what do I do next? Well, yeah, you gotta first reflect on what you learn from not achieving what you expected to achieve, you know. And hopefully there’s some pearls in there that you can do differently, which I did, and thought that I had solved those problems. Then the second time I applied, got rejected.

And then I was like, Oh my God, what do I do now? And I figured it out. The problem is, you’re trying to learn an exam when you don’t really know the content, because you’re partying during college and we’re absorbing the knowledge, you’re just taking the courses and boom. So it became obvious that I had to do a post baccalaureate year, which I did, and got into medical school right away. Got into four medical schools. So it’s really an assessment of what you did that didn’t work. What can you do differently?

Dr Herman Williams 5:00

Then that may be trial and error, but really writing down and committing to paper, I’ll come back to this in a couple of the others too. Is just writing down, because we keep all this stuff in our brain, we think it’s organized, but it’s all over the place. There’s no timelines, there’s no accountability there. It’s just, yeah, I got it up there, but you have to commit it to paper. Here’s what I did, here’s what didn’t work, here’s what I’m going to try. And maybe in that I’m going to try, there’s an A, B and a C, and let’s go through those. And if those fail, what did we do? What didn’t work? What do you think might you might be able to change and proceed along those ways. And I think you know that’s so important. You not getting in, you applying, you being able to do all that still gave you resilience. And look at what it’s changed because you learned from it. So tell us more about, you know, some other yeah buts, or other struggles that you’ve had and you’ve worked through.

Dr Herman Williams 5:59

Well, another one was, Yeah, but can I do it? Which is a nice follow up to, what do I do next? And you’ve got the list, and you go, but can I do it? And some of that relates to commitment, understanding yourself, knowing what you can and can’t do, and also understanding, I don’t believe that anybody does anything on their own, and I was blessed. I had so many mentors and so many people all throughout my life, which has really shaped my appreciation for others. And I would say, if you don’t have mentors and people that you can call on, you have to seek them out, you know, find somebody who’s doing what you’re doing, or what I mean, someone who’s doing what you want to do, and reach out to them.

A lot of people, actually, you know, they’re flattered that you would take the time to seek them out and say, Hey, can I just take you out for a cup of coffee? Or can I have a 30 minute zoom call, and just ask you, how did you do it? You know, to use that as inspiration. The other thing I will say a sidebar is we think we have people who are in our corner. And I thought I did, and I can recall I had a really good friend of person I thought was good friend of mine, and I told them, I said, Look, I want to get into orthopedics. And every time I said that, they would go, Oh, you’re not going to get into or nobody gets into orthopedic surgery. And I’m like, well, somebody, why can’t it be made right? You have to ask yourself, have I surrounded myself by people who are positive and people who are my cheerleaders? Or have I surrounded myself by people who really maybe resent me a little bit? You know, these are people who really were projecting on me. They didn’t think they could be a third and so nobody else could. As opposed to, Hey, man, that’s not for me.

Marc Wolfe 7:31

But Herman, if that’s what you want, you go get it right. If you tell people what you want to do and they’re not all in with you, I would say maybe you’ve got the wrong team around you. So that’s just a little check, yes, yeah. I speak about that in the book. People project their limiting beliefs on you. So when you’re going to move to a city or you’re going to do something, they’re like, Well, if I can’t do it, and I’m really knowledgeable, how can this other person do it? And I was like, well, because we’re not the same people, and you didn’t live through my experiences, and you don’t see through my eyes. And so that’s great advice. And I think a lot of people are so comfortable. And you know, you’re a lot of our Yeah, buts are because of comfort, where it’s like, Whoa, these are my friends forever. Did you have to leave some people behind there?

Dr Herman Williams 8:50

Look, there. only is one person that I still I’m in touch with from high school, and he and I have just grown two different careers. He’s an actor, and I have one other friend from graduate school that, I mean, is like a mentor, friend of mine. And you know all these other people they they fall by the wayside. So don’t think that these folks are going to go along without your life number one. Number two is, life is tough. It is, and a lot of people just drop they’re not committed. They’re okay with I’m okay with just is I don’t want to challenge myself anymore. And so you may find, especially if you’re someone who likes to constantly challenge yourself and do more and be better, I wake up every morning. How can I be a better person? And, you know, I try to be a better person yesterday. Maybe I made it, maybe I didn’t, but I’m going to try even more today. But there a lot of people just go, Hey, today’s just another day. I’m not going to challenge myself. You know, that’s just not me. And if you’re that one of those type of people, you’re going to find yourself maybe alone sometimes.

Marc Wolfe 10:00

Yes, now you bring up, these are, these are great points. And I think it’s great hearing it from your perspective, from if I don’t surround myself, it’s gonna make things harder, right? So if you go and stay comfortable and you don’t try to achieve and try to grow and try to learn, but that takes effort. Herman, that takes a lot of effort. So tell me, you know, I’m not sure I can do it. Was one of your Yeah, buts, but when did you recognize at your youth that you could do it? What was the trigger?

Dr Herman Williams 10:33

So I have an interesting, circuitous background, and you know, I was challenged at age 31 with you’ve just had a cardiac arrest, you’ve lost your career. You’re 100% disabled. And by the way, the system is designed to pay you only if you stay disabled, so you’re going to have to really step out of your comfort zone. And I was challenged with that at age 31 and I refused to be disabled. I refused to be a victim of my medical diagnosis. And I just made a decision there that I was going to rehab myself and I was going to find another career, and I just I wasn’t going to be satisfied with and so a lot of people are not challenged by that. They just kind of, you know, go to school or whatever you you get a career, or you get a trade, and you just kind of march through life and everything seems to work, okay, boom, then you come across a challenge, and you’re just like, whoa. I’ve been doing this for like, 40 years, but now there’s cancer in the family. How do I so I was challenged with that way way early. It took me maybe about the better part of six months to get to a position where I could actually stay I rehabbed myself. I felt normal and I was employable. And once I had done that, it really set the stage for me responding to so many other crises in my life, because I knew if I overcome that, I can do anything. And so not everybody’s had the benefit of that challenge, but that’s why you and I are trying to whip up the message, you can do it. You know you just have to redefine the parameters, the goal, the challenges, and what is it that I have to do? And am I up for the challenge?

Marc Wolfe 12:24

Wow, that’s so powerful. And I know because of what I’ve lived through in my life that you can use it to be an anchor and an excuse that you never move forward, or you can go and say, Well, I’ve been through it. It’s true. Now. What am I going to do? And what I heard you say is, six months you rehab. Isn’t there a statistic that says that people have a cardiac arrest, do not change their diet significantly, do not change their life, and most of them literally don’t take it as an opportunity to improve. They look at as this is the is who I am. Now,

Dr Herman Williams 13:00

Yeah, there is some research that people you know don’t change, or people who get lung cancer go right out and start smoking again. I mean, Yeah, but this is the way I looked at my situation. In the 90s, when I had my cardiac arrest, there was only a 10% chance of making it to the hospital if you had an out of hospital cardiac arrest. And of those people, there was only a smaller percentage of people who walked out of the hospital with a brain that was functional. So when I had passed through all that, and my wife wheeled me out of the hospital in a wheelchair, I was like, I’m ready. I’ve already beat the odds on all these other things, I’m ready to commit myself to making the most of this. And yeah, there are some people who, even though they survive that, they’re like, I’m just gonna be satisfied with being disabled. I was not that guy.

Marc Wolfe 13:53

I’m Marc, a Wolfe, author of Yeah, but not sure where to start. What your next step should be. Dr James Naismith faced, Yeah, but I don’t know where to start and invented basketball anyway. My book, Yeah, but breaks down 15 common excuses, including path based doubts like that, with a quick finder to easily navigate the chapters, ready to find your direction and have no more Yeah, buts click the show notes today and get your copy from Amazon or Apple books before I want to move on to your other Yeah. But how did you mentally deal with I went to school, I went and this is my career. You were practicing in your career for how long before this happened?

Dr Herman Williams 14:35

Actually, I over my training with this happened right smack dab in my chief residency here.

Marc Wolfe 14:41

Okay, so you’re getting an exposure and experience of how amazing this opportunity would be, and then it snaps. How did you deal with that delta in mental challenge of what? Because most people don’t go through a cardiac arrest in. 30s. I mean, they just don’t right. So tell me how that felt.

Dr Herman Williams 15:04

Actually, it’s interesting what we’re as we’re talking about this topic, because some people could have considered not finishing a failure, and for me, it was, it was a little bit of a convenience, because I had already gotten my MD, and really, as a child, that’s what I wanted to do, was be a doctor. So the fact that I couldn’t do my trade, even though I had trained so hard and done research in ortho and really put about 13 years into this, I just accepted the fact that that was not going to be my path, and I immediately went back to school, retrained myself, and I said, but maybe my path is the business of healthcare. And at that time, there were no doctors involved in consulting. And so it actually, you know, you hear the expression a door closes and a window opens, and man, let me tell you, I crawled through that bad boy.

Marc Wolfe 16:01

I got up on a step stool, and I jumped and pulled myself up and crawled through that window. But look at where I am today. So give me some more background about you. Were you married at this time? Did your family go and were they the ones that inspired you to always overcome, or were you the first one? Tell me more about that.

Dr Herman Williams 16:30

Great question. I was engaged at the time. I was supposed to be married six months later, and my fiance, who ultimately became my wife, and is still my wife after 33 years, it’s just the it’s like a fairy tale. She was the scorekeeper at a basketball game I was playing at. I went down, no, actually, I pulled myself out of the game and I sat on the sidelines, and then I passed out, and she saw me, and she screamed at everybody and said, you know, Herman’s not doing well. Something’s wrong. And so all the guys were running. She talks to me about how it looked like everybody was coming over. They did CPR.

And so I was surrounded by somebody who has been committed to me for over 30 years, who actually was integral to the life saving efforts my family came up and helped us. My dad lived with us for like, three or four months to help while she went to school to help me recover. So again, make sure you surround yourself with family and friends who care and who can help you rehabilitate yourself and can be sounding boards to tell you, and again, this can be a life threatening illness. Can be cancer. It could be divorced. It could be the death of a family. Marc, any of it, just insert challenge of choice and surround yourself with people who are there to support you and people who can give you advice, and don’t just pick one person, get a bunch of people’s advice, and then formulate your own conclusion, critical thinking, Yes, and being able to discern what’s noise and what’s not, and actually being supported by other people.

One of your Yeah, buts is like, what if I fail, right? So, but hold on, you sound like a resilient guy that’s got a great community that supports you’re sitting here doing things when you’ve already overcome odds that in the 90s, medically, this was a real high risk for you to What do you mean? What if I fail? I mean, you’ve already not failed. What? What’s that all about? So you know, you become successful in one thing, but then you get a challenge and another thing, and for me as an example, that the decision to start my own company was full of, what if I did? That’s all I could think about, right? What about that regular check I get and insurance that comes along with that? And, you know, the sick time, and that’s all I was consumed by one and the only reason why I didn’t just like do it right away was because I was afraid of failure. But you know, sometimes you have to take a risk. I said to myself, if I’m working this hard for somebody else, don’t you think you’re gonna work as hard for yourself?

And I said, so, I mean, I can’t do more than that, is to do my best work my hardest. Now, there’s some other things too. I needed some clients, and I needed support from my current job to help me transition. But at the end of the day, it was, am I going to work hard enough so that I know I’m going to bring revenue in the door, and I’m not going to fail, by the way. There’s nothing wrong with small obstacles, right? You know, I wouldn’t consider it a failure, even if my first year out was a total disaster. Hey, year one, 80% of businesses don’t even survive. So if you survive past year one, that’s a win, right? Right? You say in your book, a lot of the perception about failure is what people people’s perception that you confuse, or what people are going to think, I’m a failure, therefore I am a failure. So you gotta, you gotta teach that out. And you gotta ask yourself, it’s all about perspective. Is it half full or is it f empty?

Marc Wolfe 20:21

Yeah, it’s, it’s, you know, when there’s 15 Yeah, buts, I could have written 100 right? Because, I mean, there’s just so many Yeah, buts people use. And what I hear is, you took the yeah part of the Yeah, but, and you’ve actually owned it. But I don’t want to mislead the audience into thinking I still don’t think about failure. I think about that every day. I just have pushed it down because I I say, look, you’ve been successful in the past. You’ve had the worst of all challenges, the challenges to life, and you’ve made it through. You’re likely going to make it through. But that doesn’t mean I still don’t experience it, right? So I don’t want people to feel like, oh, no, are you kidding me? Everything’s easy. Nothing’s No, no. That’s not what we’re saying. I mean, I can, I can think of

Dr Herman Williams 21:12

One major thing I did in my life that just hurt like a son of a gun. But I have to say other than that, most of the things that I’ve set out to do I’ve been able to achieve. But that’s, you know, that’s full of things that I knew I could have achieved, right? I didn’t try to be president United States. I didn’t try to be governor, didn’t try to be dean of a school. I tried to be things that I thought I could be and I knew what the path was. So a lot of it is right, sizing expectations and what you want to do. But becoming a doctor was a stretch goal. Equal thing, dude, there’s there other things you can do.

Marc Wolfe 21:55

You’re killing us, Herman, you got it rejected from another school. You’re killing us, right, right? So what else? As we kind of wrap up, what else do you want to make sure that people really get to know when they can see through your time reading, Yeah, but through your life experiences? What else you want to share? I just want to emphasize the value of writing it down so you can see it because it has a different look and feel when it’s all mapped out, and you go, Oh, well, of course, that didn’t work because it has no you know, it’s all over the place. And so there’s such value in putting it down on paper. Asking yourself, what is it going to take to do? Asking yourself, Am I willing to do it? And asking yourself, Okay, what if this doesn’t work? Yeah, that’s, that’s, that’s great, great advice. It’s, it’s when you have to actually write it down. I’ve worked this with clients. When they write it down, and I have them read it, they’re like, Yeah, this isn’t the full plan. I was like, Yeah, because we make up in our mind, the gaps, but, but Herman, you know as a lot of things you’re saying are behaviors need to change for improvement, and keeping things in your head and living in your past and being stuck literally, will keep you from being everything you can be and helping who you’re supposed to help. And I’m grateful that you’ve taken this challenge and being able to do this and are still continuing to help people, not just locally, but literally. You’ve done videos, and you’ve helped people even outside of the United States. So you’re a guy who literally has taken what was lemonade and May, I mean lemons, and made lemonade out of it, and you’re continuing, because it doesn’t sound like you’re stopping anytime soon. No, I think that’s a great way to really sum it up, as hokey as that is. But I do think of that you just gotta make lemonade out of lemons. I think listening and reading and learning about how people overcame these that’s in your book, Yeah, but Yeah. But again, I want to say it’s, it’s beautifully architected, where you’ve got the Yeah, but you’ve got a case study. Well, you got an explanation of what it is, you got a case study, and then you have a chance to insert your own personal so, as opposed to just reading a book and go, oh yeah. So it’s a great guide, Marc. I mean, it’s a beautifully written book, and I want to commend you for that, because for folks who have not experienced adversity, they really need to be guided through the process as if you had on how to overcome obstacles in life. Well, thank you for that. Yeah, it’s I’m pretty proud of sharing other people’s stories locally and people that are famous, and sharing their stories in a way where people recognize every path isn’t easy. There’s other things going on, adversity, or even your own head noise or head trash you have if you don’t know.

Overcome it, you can be stuck. So thank you so much for sharing your story. Thank you for supporting the book, and thank you for being available and overcoming Yeah, but you’re actually now a But Buster. So just you can get the tattoo, you can go and put the #NoMoreYeahButs Herman. Thank you for listening to The Yeah, But Podcast. If today’s episode provided valuable perspective on how to overcome the excuses that can hold you back, let us know in the comments. Remember, it’s not about the yeah buts, it’s about finding ways to live, learn and lead better every day. If you enjoyed this episode, be sure to subscribe. Leave a review and share it with someone who could use a little kick to get past their yeah buts, and don’t forget to follow us on Spotify or Apple podcast and for even more tips, connect with me at marcawolfe.com/podcast or on LinkedIn until next time, keep challenging those excuses and keep moving forward.

Herman’s contact info:

• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/herman-williams-md-mba-mph/
• Website: https://hwhealthcaresolutions.com/

Marc’s links

• Website: https://www.marcawolfe.com/
• Buy Yeah, But: https://ybut.short.gy/yb
• Get a free chapter of ‘Yeah, But’: https://www.marcawolfe.com/read-yb/
• Interested in being on The Yeah, But Podcast?: https://ybut.short.gy/ybguest

Follow Marc A. Wolfe on social media for more resources:

• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/marcwolfe/
• X: https://x.com/marcawolfe
• Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/marcAwolfe

Please like, subscribe, and leave us a review on Apple Podcasts, YouTube Podcast & Spotify.

Most teams assume that conflict gets in the way of success. New York Times bestselling author and organizational psychologist Liane Davey reveals how it can be the foundation for better collaboration.

About Liane Davey

Liane Davey is a New York Times Bestselling author of three books, including The Good Fight: Use Productive Conflict to Get Your Team and Your Organization Back on Track and You First: Inspire Your Team to Grow Up, Get Along, and Get Stuff Done. She is a contributor to the Harvard Business Review and is frequently called on by media outlets for her experience in leadership, team effectiveness, and productivity. As the co-founder of 3COze Inc., she advises companies such as Amazon, McDonald’s, Walmart, UNICEF, 3M, and SONY. Liane has a Ph.D. in Organizational Psychology.

The “yeah, buts” covered in this episode:

• Yeah, But… It’s Not Safe [3:15]
• Yeah, But… What Will Others Say Or Think? [9:06]
• Yeah, But… What If I Fail? [15:18]

Liane’s contact info:

• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lianedavey/
• Website: lianedavey.com

Marc’s links

• Website: https://bit.ly/marcawolfe
• Buy Yeah, But: https://bit.ly/buyyeahbut
• Get a free chapter of Yeah, But: https://bit.ly/theyeahbutbook
• Order a copy of Yeah, But: https://a.co/d/bNYnzTY
• Be a guest on The Yeah, But Podcast: https://bit.ly/yeahbutpodcast
• Listen to The Yeah, But Podcast anywhere: https://pod.link/1779330379

We Listen: Please leave us your review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or YouTube Podcasts.

From getting laid off in his first job to navigating decades of corporate change, Brad Wingo shares what it means to keep showing up—even when the “yeah, buts” creep in. His journey is a reminder that growth rarely feels like progress at first.

About Brad Wingo

Brad Wingo is a classically trained sales rep with a diverse background in consumer packaged goods. His experience includes both external customer and internal HQ sales roles, including national and regional account management, broker account management, sales strategy, and operations.

He specializes in National Account Management, Sales Strategy and Operations, and Broker Management.

Brad’s career has taken him from Mississippi to Charlotte, to New Jersey, and now to Cincinnati. His first job out of college was put on hold for six months upon graduation, and then the position was eliminated two years in. So, two years into his career, he was back to answering job ads via the newspaper. He found a job in about three months and has been in the industry for the last 25+ years.

He has been a part of six mergers, acquisitions, joint ventures, and most recently a spin-off as a stand-alone company. Through it all, he has learned that you always take the knowledge with you—and that relationships with people and an understanding of systems are what set you apart from failure or success.

Timestamps

• “Yeah, But…I’m Not Qualified” & “Yeah, But…I’m Not Ready”[3:02]
• “Yeah, But…What If I Fail?” [5:51]
• “Yeah, But…I’m Too Old/Too Young ” [9:02]
• “Yeah, But…I Don’t Have Time” [11:32]
• Part 2- After Reading Yeah, But [15:14]
• “Yeah, But…I’m Not Qualified” & “Yeah, But…I’m Not Ready” P2 [16:43]
• “Yeah, But…I Don’t Have Time” P2 [20:23]
• “Yeah, But…What If I Fail?” P2 [26:15]

Brad’s contact info:

• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/brad-wingo-6861a48/

Marc’s links

• Website: https://bit.ly/marcawolfe
• Buy Yeah, But: https://bit.ly/buyyeahbut
• Get a free chapter of Yeah, But: https://bit.ly/theyeahbutbook
• Order a copy of Yeah, But: https://a.co/d/bNYnzTY
• Be a guest on The Yeah, But Podcast: https://bit.ly/yeahbutpodcast
• Listen to The Yeah, But Podcast anywhere: https://pod.link/1779330379

We Listen: Please leave us your review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or YouTube Podcasts.

Starting a business is hard, but going at it alone makes it even harder. Sam Davidson, CEO of the Nashville Entrepreneur Center, shares how entrepreneurs can increase their chances of success by embracing mentorship, teamwork, and the power of community.

About Sam Davidson

Sam Davidson’s career has been full of both dreaming and doing. A four-time entrepreneur, he is the CEO of Nashville Entrepreneur Center, which is working to make Nashville the best place to start and grow a business by increasing the likelihood of success for entrepreneurs. He is a national speaker and author and lives in Nashville with his family.

The “yeah, buts” covered in this episode:

• “Yeah, But… I don’t know where to start” [4:33]
• “Yeah, But… I need help!” [11:11]
• “Yeah, But… I’m not qualified” [5:36]

Sam’s contact info:

• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/samdavidson/
• Nashville Entrepreneur Center: https://ec.co/

Marc’s links

• Website: https://bit.ly/marcawolfe
• Buy Yeah, But: https://bit.ly/buyyeahbut
• Get a free chapter of Yeah, But: https://bit.ly/theyeahbutbook
• Order a copy of Yeah, But: https://a.co/d/bNYnzTY
• Be a guest on The Yeah, But Podcast: https://bit.ly/yeahbutpodcast
• Listen to The Yeah, But Podcast anywhere: https://pod.link/1779330379

We Listen: Please leave us your review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or YouTube Podcasts.

Marc Wolfe: Hello, Pamela Holz. Welcome to the podcast. 


So I want to make sure our guests know right away who you are. So can you tell us quickly one thing or two things about your professional career that would be relevant to them hearing about you.

Pamela Holz: I was reading this great new book that I have. It’s called Yeah, But, and it was talking about how people change careers often in their lives. And I think, um, that is something that I’ve learned is not a negative. I have had the opportunity to do a, a variety of different things along my, my professional journey. And it’s been really neat to be able to see along the way how each one of those things has prepared me for the next one. And, um, I think that is an important thing to know about a person’s life and profession.

Marc Wolfe: That you’re not afraid of change, you’re willing to dive in and be able to do things. So how does that play out in your life outside of work? What’s something you’re proud of? What brings you joy?

Pamela Holz: Oh my goodness. That’s my word, Marc. You know, this, uh, what brings me joy? I, I live in always seeking positivity and optimism. I want to find, life for me is all about perspective. Um, I, I think, you know, I like to take pictures of photography is a little hobby of mine and my kids laugh because I’m so hip, but I’ve got my own little hashtag and it’s, it’s all about perspective. Because it’s not just about taking pictures, but when you take a picture, the picture that you capture is unique to you, kind of like life. Each one of us are these unique creatures who have the opportunity to make our way in this world. And we, have the opportunity to choose our perspective. So what brings me joy is remembering that there is this perspective that I can choose every day. um, I follow Seth Godin, who’s got a great, um, great blog and, and I’ve been following him for years. And one of the first things I wrote down that he said was, you want to be in the room where decisions are made, be the one to call the meeting. And that was an aha moment for me. I really appreciated that.

Oh, I’ll just call the meetings and then I’ll be there. Um, but another thing yesterday he sent out in his blog and it was called polishing the problem. And it was where people have a tendency to get into this negative spiral and they keep looking at a problem and they keep looking at a problem and they build on it.

They’re polishing the problem. And so his encouragement was instead of polishing the problem pursue possibilities. And I love that.

Marc Wolfe: Plus the alliteration is cool too, right?

Pamela Holz: Pursuing the possibilities because, because Pamela’s positive perspectives are what I’m all about.

Marc Wolfe: Okay, so so imagine people meeting you for the first time on this podcast and they’re like, okay, is this Pamela woman real? Show how you can be relatable from this, so there they want to continue to listen

Pamela Holz: How am I real? Oh, wow. Um, you know, I have had things happen to me in my life. I’ve, I’ve not lived in the same place for very long. I mean, this is the longest I’ve, I’ve lived in Tennessee for 17 years now, and that is the longest I’ve lived anywhere in my life. Um, so over, you know, the course of my life, we’ve, um, we moved a lot. I had to, you know, make friends and then get uprooted and have to go someplace else and make new friends and learn a whole new environment and, and figure out how to fit into a new social system and peer group. And, and how do you make those connections? And while, you know, some people might look at that and go, oh, that’s too bad that you had to do that. For me, it’s been, it’s been instrumental in helping me grow and doing what I love to do, and that is make connections. I love networking. I, Eleanor Roosevelt is quoted, or is credited with saying, everyone’s a stranger until they become your friend. And that’s, that’s true. But a quote that I’ve known since I was a little girl, I grew up in a little town in Southern Minnesota with 14, 000 people.

And I think more people knew me than I realized, but I was that little girl who’s just like, good morning, hello, because I think that everyone’s a stranger until they become your friend. But what if everybody in the world were just to take a moment and smile at a stranger on the street? Not, not in a creepy way, but just, you know, you walk past somebody in the street and say, good morning. And that’s it. But wow, for just that. That millisecond we could, I mean, I made a guy smile this morning when I walked past him and he had this kind of fierce look on his face. And I looked at him, I smiled and I said, good morning. He’s like, Oh, hi. Yeah. Good morning. And he smiled back at me and we both kept walking and I’ll never see him again. Does that make me real? I don’t know if that makes me real, Marc, but it is who I really am. So I guess that’s as real as I can be is to be me.

Marc Wolfe: And that’s the beauty of what I’m trying to show with Yeah, But, there’s things that people say and do. And it’s important to understand is that the authentic you. So with your positivity and again, I know a lot of my guests because I want to make sure I know them at least well enough to be like, should I put them in front of an audience?

What are they going to say? Are they going to be the real them. You still have “yeah, buts” though, Pamela. So here’s this ray of sunshine, really hopeful, everything going on, but,

Yeah, But… Somebody Already Did It

Marc Wolfe: I heard that your first “yeah, but” is “Yeah, but somebody already did it”. So tell me a little bit about that.

Pamela Holz: You know, I, I have to first do a little, uh, segue commercial. I have, I have just really been enjoying this book, Marc. I’m not all the way through it yet, and I want to be honest about that. But the thing I love about your book is that you have collected a bunch of, like, very human excuses that people maybe don’t even realize that they have.

And you put it together in this handy collection of, like, oh, if I’m struggling with that but there’s already an excuse that’s been written. Marc has the answer. I love how each chapter is super readable and you’ve got like, hey, oh yeah, I can, I can think through that. So “yeah, but” somebody’s already done that.

You know, you and I talked about that, um, a couple months ago and, and I think when you and I first met, I think I told you that at some point I’d love to write a book. There’s always been a book inside of me. “Yeah, but” somebody’s already done that, right? So somebody’s already written a book. And I remember you and I had a conversation and you said, but Pamela, there is no other you. There’s never been the book written by you from your perspective. So has somebody already written a book? Yep. They sure have. There have been many, many, many books written, but have they been from my perspective? Nope. And might there be somebody out there who wants to hear my perspective? There might be.

And you know what? Even if there isn’t another single person in this world who would like to read a book that I write, I will have accomplished a childhood dream to become a published author. And that’ll be something.

Marc Wolfe: No, it’s, you know, you, you bring up a point that, and by the way, thank you so much for taking the time to read it. And I wrote it in a way because I wanted it to be like, people look and go 202 pages? “Yeah, but” I don’t have the time for that. I was like, oh, there’s a chapter on that. Just read the intro in that chapter. Seriously. That’s it.

Pamela Holz: 1440.

Marc Wolfe: Exactly, right?

Pamela Holz: 1440 minutes.

Marc Wolfe: And so, I did it in a way where I appreciate that you do that because, Pamela, even with your book, you’re like, I don’t know who’s going to read this. I mean, you know, I got some relatives that like me and they might read it, but I was like, are strangers really going to do that?

And then you hear people that, you know, never met and they’re like, wow, this book was really important to me. And that’s the thing. It’s not about being an author. I’m always gonna be a guy who wrote a book, right? Authors are people who write books and that’s what they do. It’s okay. I don’t want to take that title as author.

It’s, and maybe someday I’ll move into it. But when I think about what you’re saying, you know, there’s a chapter even on, you know, somebody already did This is nothing new, but let’s, let’s go back for a second. I want to make sure people really understand that you’re not just a cheerleader and you’re just full of joy, but you have this whole career.

Give me a little of your background. If now’s a good time to just tell me professionally, why would they even listen to you other than you just being somebody that lives in Tennessee for 17 years?

Pamela Holz: Yeah. Um, why to listen to me? Um, that’s a great question, Marc. A great question, Marc. I love words. Words so much fun. Um, so I have been working since I was 10 years old. I think that was just drilled into me that there’s this entrepreneurial spirit that we, you know, you need to, you need to be doing something you’ve been given gifts, use those gifts and, and do something with them. I was a, I had a paper route when I was 10 and I would trudge through the snowdrifts of Minnesota to deliver 32 papers every morning, you know, from six to seven in the morning. And, um, and I got to go collect the monthly fees for that. So I got to meet people. Um, I had a professor, the neighborhood, give me a quarter and say, save this for your college education.

And I said to him very politely, thank you, sir. Um, I think I understand that college is a little bit more expensive than that. So I’m probably going to have to get some more customers and get them to give me a bigger tip, um, cause he gave me a quarter a month. Um, you know, I mean, but, you know, every experience that I’ve had, I mean, I worked in fast food, I worked in retail, I sold shoes, I sold women’s clothing, I was a nanny for a couple of years out in New York State. I got to travel. I’ve gotten to do some really neat things. And I think part of it is because I genuinely just love people. I think there is something to love about every single person that we meet in this world, but we just need to give them the opportunity for us to see it. And sometimes they make it a little bit more difficult.

And those are the people I love talking with the most because it’s like a challenge, but I, um, I had some fabulous teachers when I was going to school. I wanted to become a school teacher. That’s what I trained to do was become a teacher. And um, just that privilege of getting to spend time and, and be in a classroom with kids realize that there’s just these little sponges and, oh man, there’s so much we could learn.

They used to tell me you’re talking too fast. We can’t take this all in. I’m like, nope, we can’t slow down. There’s so much to learn in so little time. We got to keep going. I have always been this way, Marc. But you know, my first teaching job, the way it worked, I was actually assigned to a school.

Um, it was the way, um, the school system that I was in worked. They looked at your gifts and they assigned you to a school. So I was assigned to a one room school and this is up in St. Cloud, Minnesota. I was uh, fresh out of college. I was told that I was going to be the principal and the teacher in the school.

I would have a halftime teacher there. She would take the kindergartners and first and second graders in the morning, but then in the afternoon I would have grades one through eight and every grade was represented. I had 32 students in my school. Not only was I their teacher, I was also the principal, I was brand new out of college.

I had the school photographer show up and he said, where’s your teacher? And I said, I am the teacher. And he said, stop goofing around, go get the teacher.

Marc Wolfe: So, so, so this, this life of yours is not new where you’re loving people and helping people and educating people. And Pamela, so as, as you start to go through kind of what you’re doing, right, and you’re shifting, how does this tie into where you land professionally now?

Hi, I’m Marc A. Wolfe, author of the best selling book, Yeah, But…Cut Through the Noise to Live, Learn, and Lead Better. Fifteen different chapters about “yeah, buts” that I’ve heard over my professional career. Things like, “Yeah, but I don’t have time”. “Yeah, but what’s the plan?” “Yeah, but what if I fail?” These “yeah, buts” aren’t about preaching at someone about how they’re wrong.

It provides insight and research as well as “but busters” to help you get through them. Pick up a copy of Yeah, But…Cut Through the Noise today.

Pamela Holz: Um, it’s been an interesting journey. You know, I, I taught school and then I stayed home and I raised my kids. And how do you get back into the workplace after being out for 12 years, raising, raising four kids? You know, how, what does that look like? And it just didn’t work for me to go back into the classroom.

And I felt like there was more for me to do. And so I’ve, I’ve gone on different paths and, you know, things just, things just seem to opportunities present themselves and I kind of, I, I think you can’t be afraid to take a chance on an opportunity. I went to a, I went to a show at the Ryman ended up being a guest chef on a cooking show.

It was called Sing for Your Supper with chef Bob Waggoner and Brett Eldridge was the guest performer that night. At the time, Brett Eldridge was not an, he was not a known quantity. He was opening up for this gal named Taylor Swift. But now Brett Eldredge is his own guy, but I got to cook for Brett Eldredge.

Well, my neighbors saw that episode and she said, hey, I’ve got this cooking show. I need a host. Would you be interested in hosting a cooking show? I said, well, yeah, I would love to do that. So I got to host a cooking show. Well, she also needed a creative director for her, for her, um, health food market, so I ended up being a creative director for a health food market and had a cooking show. And then that ran its course, and I ended up getting to work for the USO out at Fort Campbell, and I got to work with our service members and their families, and I got to take care of them. This is how this all ties together, right? Because what it comes down to is at the health food store. I taught cooking classes. I wanted to take away from people the fear of switching to healthy food that it didn’t have to be a bad thing that going on a diet isn’t, you know, a negative thing. It’s just about what you put in your body and how to make better choices so that you could take the best care of yourself. How can I help to take care of people?

What can I do? That’s how I show love, is how can I take care of you? I got to help take care of our service members and their families. What an incredibly big honor that was that was that was huge for me to be able to serve in that capacity to show each one of them that they matter and that we appreciate them huge. And then I had the opportunity to go from that to to work with the Red Cross and respond to people on what is probably one of the worst days of their lives and show love to them and, and to be there for them and to give them hope, you know, it’s the not being afraid to make a change, even though sometimes change can be hard to accept that change is really the only constant.

And the sooner we accept that and recognize that there are opportunities for us to learn and grow in everything that we do, we take the right perspective about it, then. You know, I ended up where I am today because of a conversation that a friend had with a mutual friend who said, that sounds like a job for Pamela.

Pamela called this woman. I did. We had four conversations and then I had this job and now I’m here helping people grow their businesses through networking opportunities across the state of Tennessee.

Marc Wolfe: Wow, and yet you still sleep at some time with your energy and, and, but the, the part that I think is, is amazing is, uh, “yeah, but I don’t have time” and I could see why that might be a “yeah, but” for you after all that.

Yeah, But… I Don’t Have Time

Marc Wolfe: So share a story about your, “yeah, but I don’t have time”. Just one story. I know there’s a lot.

Pamela Holz: No. This just happened this week, Marc.

Marc Wolfe: Oh, okay.

Pamela Holz: I’m going to give you a lot of credit. You know, I appreciate, I was thinking this morning about just how much I appreciate your persistence. I know you’re a professional coach. I mean, like executive coach, I know this is what you do, but your persistence and your belief in me, um, has been something that I have just really appreciated over the years since we’ve met.

Um, uh, it’s it’s been, um, a really positive, um, experience for me to have you just continue to encourage me to do this. And I kept saying, but “yeah, but” somebody already wrote that book and “yeah, but” I don’t have time to do that. And I was reading the chapter about, I don’t have time. And he said, 1440 and that’s how many minutes are in a day.

And I have a little clock on my desk and it’s tick, tick, ticking away. And I’m like, man, I’m running out of time in the morning to work on this book. I have this book project that I’ve started because of you, Marc. I have this book that I’m working on and it dawned on me, I’m not, I don’t have enough time to work on this before I have to go to work in the morning.

So the only way I’m going to make more time is I’m going to get up at five o’clock in the morning instead of five 30. And so now I have two hours in the morning to work on my book project before I go to work. So how do I make more time? I sleep less. How do I work through that? Well, I go to bed a little earlier and I drink a lot of coffee.

Marc Wolfe: Well, congratulations. That’s it’s, it’s the, here’s the irony and all that, Pamela. And, and thank you. I’m honored that that was a helpful method for you. And yes, I’m tenacious because when I see something or I see something at somebody until they tell me to go away, if I really see it, I’m like, you just need to see it.

And if you see it now it’s on you, but I want you to know other people see it. And I wasn’t the only person so there’s four people you’re the fourth person that’s actually either written a book or going to write a book way before I decided to right so you decide to write a book a long time ago, and i’ve been resisting it. It’s interesting how you can help people do something you don’t even do and that’s sometimes what people short sell themselves on. Well, if I can’t do it, how can I encourage others? I was like sometimes they just need the reflection of this needs to be done. I’m just not there yet. And, uh, yeah, I’m excited about your book because I do know, do you want to offer a teaser of what it’s about? Or do you want to keep that secret? Yeah, that’s okay.

Pamela Holz: Well. If people want to find a better way to focus their lives, that’s what I was struggling with, and I was talking to a friend about it, and, um, he’s taken the approach lately that if there’s something that he struggles with, he leans into it. And I think, oh yeah, which is really hand in hand with Yeah, But you know, lean into that, which you’re resisting. Adam Grant has a new book out called Hidden Potential. And his phrases, um, getting comfortable with being uncomfortable. So if I struggle with focus, because honestly, Marc, as fast as I talk and as much as I have going on, you know, in the conversation, there’s, you know, 10 times as much going on in my brain.

Like, how do I focus when I’ve got all these different things going on? But. If I need to get better at focusing, I need to lean into focusing. And so I am creating a system, a framework to better focus. And for me, focus is to find one’s creative usable system. Somebody else can have a planner. But it might not work for me because it works for their brain. But what if there’s just a framework that you could plug in what works for you into this framework? So I’m creating a framework that when I show you how it works, you can take the things that are important to you and plug them into this framework, and you can focus on those things for a whole year. then it’s great because it’ll be set up in such a way that next year, you can choose other things you want to focus on, and then I’ll show you how you can focus on those for an entire year. And instead of having a New Year’s resolution, like, oh, I’m going to do this, and I’m going to focus, and then, you know, two weeks in, you don’t keep up your resolution, you feel like a failure, and then you move on, and I hate New Year’s resolutions. No, I’m actually breaking it down into bite sized pieces so that you can focus on the things that are important to you. And it’s going to make a difference in your life.

Marc Wolfe: Impact, actual and making it customizable. And so that’s the beauty of what I get so excited about as people who see an issue, see that might not just be theirs or see that it’s not addressed in a way where they’re like, if this was just tweaked, you know, this could help a whole group of people that don’t like the standard way it’s being done.

And that’s always, what’s so exciting, but there’s somebody, “yeah, but” well, the market not big enough, or how about if it doesn’t take off? So, so it’s, even with that idea about what to do,

Yeah, But… I Don’t Know What to Do Next

Marc Wolfe: I thought your third, “yeah, but” was I don’t know what to do next. So.

Pamela Holz: Yeah, you know, but and it’s true.

Um, I but I think I had lunch with a friend earlier this week and I was talking to her about my project. Cause she’s somebody else that I, she’s my accountability partner. I consider you one of my accountability, accountability people. She is too. And she said, um, cause she recently wrote a book as well. And she said, as I was going through the process, the people that I needed kept appearing in my life. And I, so my yeah, but is okay. Yeah. So I put this together. How do I get it published to, to whom do I speak to make this happen? How do I put this into reality? Right. But her comment was, well, you know, I, that’s. you need a publisher, she said, I’ve got a couple of different people I could recommend. And I’ve mentioned it to a couple of somebody else I spoke with that just recently written a book. And she’s like, Oh, I have my own publishing company. If you want to talk to me, I’d be happy to talk with you. So suddenly the answers are, you know, if you’re just open to asking for help, I think that’s one of your, “yeah, but” things too is like, “yeah, but” I need to ask for help. And so to people who’ve done this and say, so next steps, what would you recommend? “Yeah, but” what do I do next? Okay. Marc’s got an answer for that too. I don’t, you’re like, getting rid of all my “yeah buts”, Marc. I don’t know. I don’t have any more excuses because you’ve got me looking at things in a way that I don’t need that much sleep. I can cut a half an hour off my, off my sleep so I can get more done. That’s exciting to me. So now what?

Marc Wolfe: They’re “But Busters”, that’s what we call them right so I mean you’re busting your own “but” and isn’t it isn’t it exciting when somebody can speak into your life, but you can still decide it’s still my choice to do it or not. My book doesn’t preach at people and say you gotta do it because I don’t guilt anybody into things.

Because I don’t want that to be what it should be. Don’t tell me what I should do. Thing is, I want to want to do it. And look at you with all the energy and your positive attitude and things. We still have things we struggle with because we all do. And there’s always a time where like, you’re going to get stuck, even on something someone says or said in the past, or even our own self talk, imposter syndrome.

And when you think about all these things, it’s really important to be like, okay, well, which ones of these are going to matter? Which ones of these are going to hold me back? And what happens if I don’t do this? So Pamela, let’s, let’s talk about that for a minute. It’s like, What happens with some of the things that you’re now convicted of?

What helped you change and realize that if you didn’t do it, what would happen if you didn’t?

Pamela Holz: Well, that conversation you and I had, I mean, you said that to me, we were standing, you know, we were at the 501 commerce building on the 11th floor event space and the harvest moon was coming up in the sky and we’re standing outside and you’re like, “yeah, but” Pamela, if you don’t write that book, people won’t get to know about this. And, and that wasn’t guilt. It was just a reality. It was a true statement. It’s the, what, see, my, my thing is in a world where people seem just bent on being offended by things. What if, what if we switch our perspective? What if, instead of being offended by something, someone says, what if I stop? What if I. defend somebody? What if I, what if I speak well of them? What if I look to take their words and their actions in just the kindest possible way? What if I look to find everything that you and I have in common and celebrate those things? Marc, can you imagine what a difference it would make in the world if everyone would make a difference? Just the effort to try to say, I want to find what you and I have in common, because I bet if you and I were to sit down across the table with a complete stranger, and I’d be happy to do this with anyone, I could find more things that that person and I had in common than anybody could find that we had that would separate us and man, would the world be a better place if we all just took a little time to get out of our, oh, I’m offended role and say, no, I’m going to look for ways that I can, I can put some positivity back in the world. I want to stop being offended. I don’t want to start looking for ways that I can build other people up. I want to celebrate other people’s successes. I want to be there and smiling at the stranger on the street and saying good morning to people. I don’t know you, that’s okay. But what if I smile at you and it makes a difference in your day? They say that if a person is contemplating suicide, if they were to get a call from a friend within 30 minutes of when they might commit suicide, that 30 minutes make all the difference in the world. It can stop them from what they were thinking about doing. How many people in this world are struggling? And what if we all could just take a moment to say, who do I know that maybe, maybe I just want to send a text message and say, I was thinking about you. I have a friend who doesn’t go through drive thrus. He never goes to the drive thru. He always wants to go into the restaurant.

He makes the time in his very, very busy life, in his busy schedule. He stops, and he’ll go inside the restaurant. And he does it because he wants to look the person in the eye and have a connection as another human being. I love that. I respect that. I try to emulate that. Let’s do a better job of connecting as people. That’s, that, that matters to me. That’s why this book needs to be written. That’s why what I do, I feel is such a privilege that I get to connect people and help to grow relationships with people.

Marc Wolfe: No, that’s, that’s profound. And I think I’ll scale what you said because you’re at the higher level of the scale because you’ve lived it. I mean, you were a little girl. You did this. Here’s the way I help people who aren’t. A lifelong person is just to understand how one thought can manifest itself to create a “yeah, but” that stopped you from doing something, right?

Anyone doing something just because of a one “yeah, but” can be enough. And look at how reading a book, having conversations, look at how much it takes to unravel that, right? I’m a coach. I’m a consultant. Not a psychiatrist, not a psychologist. This is from a business perspective, and it still takes work to undo that.

What I’m hearing you say, Pamela, is that sometimes there’s not enough joy in people’s lives that even a smile can take a stranger and actually turn them into, wow, you just broke me out of this moment where I’m in my own head because I had to interact with you. If I go to a restaurant and have a conversation with somebody, they don’t even know that you’re doing it intentionally, but imagine if you did say, you know why, you know why I came in here?

I just wanted to say hello, right? And they’re like, they would just be taken aback. When you interrupt somebody from what is normal, normal and commonplace, and you actually show them your intentionality, there’s so much that can happen. So I think for people that aren’t on the scale of Pamela with the overwhelming, overflowing joy, which I get to experience at networking events and other events.

And I think people can start with just doing one thing differently that they normally do and just take a moment to be like, what happens if I actually have a smiling face every once in a while. to strangers versus, I mean, you drive, drive, drive to Vermont and they wave to you while you drive on the road.

I mean, there’s certain places that still do this, right? I’ve been to Bermuda, and if you don’t say hello, I’ve been to places in the South where they expect you to say hello when you walk by to people. And it’s still, it’s not the 1950s anymore. It’s still doing that. So It’s interesting how some people still are doing this, it’s just not as many, and it takes more intentionality to do that.

So, Pamela, thank you for sharing so many different ways that people can know that there’s somebody else out there that does this. This is great, and they can relate to you. Even though you have a “Yeah, but somebody already did it”, I don’t have time, and I don’t know what to do next. It didn’t stop you, and it still hasn’t stopped you.

Pamela Holz: Well, know, I, I think you’re not a lifelong learner, you know, that, I mean, that’s just my, my goal in life. Let’s how, what can I learn today? What, what can I learn next? We’re not, we’re not stagnant creatures. We’re, you know, we’re full of energy and we’re, I mean, we really are. We’re made of cells and those cells, I mean, like think back to your science classes, you know, I mean, those, that’s energy and we have the choice that we can be full of positive energy or we can be full of negative energy and you, you attract, you know, what, what do you want to attract? Really, really interesting, but I, let, I mean, let’s just, let’s just, it’s worth to do, to do something, just do something.

Marc Wolfe: So, thanks so much. I want to make sure, is there anything else that I didn’t ask you or you want to leave people with that they should know about how to think differently, reach out to you, have a conversation, see things differently? I mean, we went over so much. What’s one of the big takeaways you want people to come away with and kind of see?

Pamela Holz: You know, I would say, just remember something I didn’t know until probably later in life, not, not that many years ago um, everybody’s got their own insecurities. Everybody’s got the things that they’re struggling with and, and just, if we can all just work to be a little bit kinder and, and recognize that, you know, when, when we have networking events and somebody walks in a room. Um, and I don’t know anybody, you know, it’s okay just to go up to somebody and say, hi, I don’t think we’ve met, introduce yourselves. I’m, I’m with this. What do you do? One of the secrets that people maybe don’t believe about me, but I tell them it’s actually true is that, um, I love finding out about other people and I love asking questions. And you know what a person’s favorite topic is to talk about themselves. So if you are struggling in a conversation, ask them about themselves, ask them about their favorite food. I once thought that maybe I could go on a journey around the world meet people just over food. You know, even if I didn’t speak the same language, facial expressions can be like, Oh, wow, this is amazing.

Or, Oh, I’m not sure I care for this, but okay. And, and you can get people to break bread with you and talk with you and connect with you. And, and, and I guess that would be my big encouragement. Who can you connect with? Maybe it’s that grouchy person at the, at the, you know, the grocery store who never smiles at you when they check out with groceries. Maybe ask them something about themselves. You know, what can you do to make a difference in somebody’s life? And don’t be offended if they are grouchy to you, you know, look at, is it a challenge? Oh, okay. They’re grouchy today. All right. I’ll try again tomorrow. Because if, if we don’t give up, You know, I mean, eventually, I will tell you, I, I’ve had that happen. He finally gave in and he’s just like, why are you always so cheerful? I’m like, I just wanted to make you smile.

Marc Wolfe: You know, that’s a perfect place to end this episode, Pamela. I’m going to have in the show notes where people can reach out and connect with you. And your tenacity, your authenticity, I think is infectious in a good way where people can realize that you’re just not going to give up. And I think I know that if more people were like that, it would just be unavoidable and instead of it being unavoidable, that people are going to dive toward mean or angry or disconnected.

What happens if just even one or two out of 10 people were actually more joyful. So thank you so much for taking the time and sharing your “yeah, buts” and being here.

Pamela Holz: Well, I really appreciate it, Marc. Thank you.

We Listen: Please leave us your review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or YouTube Podcasts.

Marc A. Wolfe: Mickey, what I know you mostly for is your consulting and certified executive leadership coaching that you continue to do. So, Mickey, let’s talk a little bit about how you use your personality to kind of just work through what other people’s, “yeah, buts” come at you with all the time in education.

Mickey Burnim: Well, education, I have, have said, uh, in describing myself upon occasion is my family business. My parents were both educators, and both my sisters became teachers and were therefore educators as well, and I see some of that carrying forward to the next generation.

So education, I like to say, is our family business, and you know, that’s appropriate, I think, because I see the difference that good education has made in the lives of my family members.

And I I know that for people who who come from disadvantaged backgrounds who are seeking to make a better life for themselves or their families, how they can do that, in that, in way that serves others, and so I want to help the students and families of students, who are seeking a better way for themselves.

And so, that has been the overall approach in my higher education career. If I’m serving as president or vice president, and I’m leading in a way that makes the institution in which we’re serving better and more effective. And that it reaches out to more people that it extends opportunities them and that the culture, the processes, etc. are all geared towards helping people to succeed, achieve their objectives, to earn the education, degree, the certifications they’re seeking, and then and to go on to have good economic and personal results as a result of the educational experience.

Marc A. Wolfe: So let’s, let’s talk about some “yeah, buts”.

I think one of the ones you mentioned, I don’t know where to start. Mickey, tell us a little bit more about how that was a “yeah, but” for you and how you worked through that.

Mickey Burnim: Well, that, that pertains to my writing a book. And, uh, as I neared the end of my career, I noticed, I and I started telling people, I’m going to retire soon, or after I had announced the retirement date, people said, well, you should write a book.

I had two or three people, different institutions say that to me. And, uh, on top of that, I thought back over my career and all that I had done. I had a chance to lead two different universities for 11 years as the president or the chancellor, the CEO titles.

And so I wanted to share at least my approach with with others and let let people kind of take from that, uh, what they might actually lead to their having a big success. My writing to that point, had been been some some academic writing for the journal, writing for, writing speeches as president, as president and chancellor I had to give a lot of speeches. Those kinds kinds of things, uh, didn’t serve, it seemed to me as a good background or experience for writing. So I was just not quite sure how go about it.

Marc A. Wolfe: So you had an opportunity, people told you you should do it. You didn’t really have all the experience of writing a book.

So how did you overcome this “yeah, but”?

Mickey Burnim: My tendency is to not procrastinate, and so I started writing, sharing them with people. Turns out they weren’t very good. They did not did not, um, excite anyone.

And in fact, I kind of found the approach a little boring myself. So I said, well, that approach does not work. One thing that happened is that my wife said to me one day, you know I was I was looking at this catalog of courses for senior citizens, people 55 and over, offered by the community college in our county. And one of the titles is creative writing. IAnd looking for things to do, I decided to sign up for the class. Lo and uh, lo and behold, I learned what memoir writing was, I thought that’s exactly what I had in mind, and that’s the approach that would make a real difference. And so, that helped me get over the initial, “yeah, but” how do I start?

Marc A. Wolfe: What happens when one of your “yeah, buts” is what’s the plan? So tell me more about that.

Mickey Burnim: Well, even after I came to realize that I wanted to write a memoir, uh, then a whole set of new questions arose. Um, how do you go about writing the memoir? I mean, exactly what is a memoir? I know that it, it’s, it’s one’s personal story or some aspect of one’s personal story, but how do you decide which experiences to include in the book? How do you know what would interest folks to you? Do you start with the key leadership points that you to emphasize and then tell stories around those points or do you start with a comprehensive list of the attributes and characteristics of successful leaders from your experience and then sort of share that? All of these were questions that came in my mind and that it’s just not immediately obvious how, how to proceed. And in fact, once you actually write, the start writing, how do you ensure you’re getting feedback? Honest, candid, helpful feedback on what you’re writing? Once you get it published, what process do you follow in going through with the distribution?

I decided to to take advantage of the class that I had signed up for, because that class had several other students like myself, who were learning to do memoir writing. And once a week class, it provided us the opportunity to write something, get feedback, but it was feedback that was positive in nature, uh, and that was encouraging. I decided I will take that process and put forth by the class and use that to write sections of the book And so that way, shaped the plan, but continued to reshape it as I learned more about memoir writing, as I got feedback from those who were reading drafts of little pieces I had written for the class.

Marc A. Wolfe: Hey there. It’s time for a quick break. While we’re diving into how to live, learn and lead better, I wanted to let you in on something I’m really excited about. If you’ve ever found yourself stuck in the “yeah, but” cycle, those moments where excuses get in your way of your potential. My new book, Yeah, But…Cut Through the Noise to Live, Learn and Lead Better is for you.

The book is packed with practical strategies, real stories, and actionable advice to help you stop making excuses and start making progress. Whether you’re a leader, a learner, or just someone looking to cut through the noise, Yeah, But has something for you. And here’s the best part, for a limited time you can grab a chapter for free.

Just head over to my website at www.marcawolfe.com/book to get started. Readers have already said that the perspective and stories guided them to get unstuck and move forward. All right, let’s get back to the show and dive into more ways to break through those yeah, but moments.

It’s interesting, you know, Mickey, that, you know, you didn’t have the full plan when you first started from the beginning to end, right? It’s an evolution of over time. And what I’m also hearing you say is that you had some structure because there was some community, there was some accountability, there was some repetition, right?

There was a, there was a habit built, right? So there’s so much more that comes out, but. If you would have done it on your own in the beginning, you still would have potentially needed these things, but they happen to come together at an opportunity when you went to a class locally and when you did go and meet other people.

I think too many people miss in they’re, “yeah, but” like they have to see the whole plan before they even start. And it sounds like, which happens with many people, the plan evolves, adjusts. And gets refined over time because even the perfect plan is not the perfect plan. It’s always going to get changed

Mickey Burnim: Absolutely.

Marc A. Wolfe: Your other, “yeah, but” was, “yeah, but…somebody already did it”.

So what, you know, when you say those words about somebody already did it, tell me about what you originally thought that was a hold back or like, uh, why me, or why does this matter and how you work through that?

Mickey Burnim: Well, as I learned about memoir writing, I learned that I bought some books. So in addition to going, participating in that class, I also built a small little library on memoir writing and, and read what others had said about it and read a few memoirs, and I came to understand that a memoir has a theme, and that theme is pursued through the life experiences of the writer. What I wanted to do was to a share a portion of my life but with a focus on leadership, the leadership aspect of my life, because that’s what I had had in higher education.

And that’s where I thought the lessons learned would be beneficial to others. And so, um, as I started to think about that, I thought, gosh, leadership, you there’s hundreds, thousands of books written on leadership. Probably hundreds written every year.

So world does not need another leadership book, certainly not one that just talks about the principles, guidelines for good leadership, etc. Because there are plenty of those out there, I use a lot of them as I was developing my own approach and dealing with my leadership opportunities. But what I could do, and what the memoir approach afforded me, was a chance to tell my story and to emphasize some of leadership points or experiences, and that would make it unique.

And I could write it in such a way that it was interesting and held people’s interest as they read through it, then I could share some of those experiences in the context of what I believe are most important principles of leadership, and therefore perhaps have it be instructive.

Marc A. Wolfe: But your unique perspective on things is really the critical thing, because some people can talk from an academic standpoint and still not have what you have, what you went through, why it was important to you and how people can apply that. That’s the beauty of our individuality and how we can use our story to help people that we wouldn’t think we could. I’m sure you’ve already gotten stories back from people who have read your book.

Mickey Burnim: Yes, I have.

Marc A. Wolfe: Because they were just like, and they’re not just platitudes. People literally are like, I never knew this. Thank you for sharing your perspective. Wow. I see there’s hope because, you know, it’s, nothing’s new under the sun, right?

Mickey Burnim: Yes.

Marc A. Wolfe: So it’s um, so what do you, what’s your advice to tell other people that are paralyzed by fear when that “yeah, but” comes up that it’s been done before?

Mickey Burnim: Well, first thing when one is dealing with fear, usually that fear is not nearly as challenging an issue as we think. And so the most important step is to move beyond. It’s to attack it, to approach, to go forward with what it is that you’re determined to do.

In the of the believer in the case of one perhaps may not have that that kind of faith, it’s still important to take a step, to get off the time, and to initiate something. Even if you start out and you discover that you’ve taken the wrong approach and the approach is not going to work, you can always make a pivot and start again. Many, many successful people have failed many times before they succeeded. And so the biggest problem is not doing anything.

Marc A. Wolfe: Thank you for listening to The Yeah, But Podcast. If today’s episode provided valuable perspective on how to overcome the excuses that can hold you back, let us know in the comments. Remember, it’s not about the “yeah, buts”, it’s about finding ways to live, learn, and lead better every day. If you enjoyed this episode, be sure to subscribe, leave a review and share it with someone who could use a little kick to get past their “yeah, buts”, and don’t forget to follow us on Spotify or Apple Podcasts, and for even more tips, connect with me at marcawolfe.com/podcast or on LinkedIn. Until next time, keep challenging those excuses and keep moving forward.

We Listen: Please leave us your review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or YouTube Podcasts.

Transcript

Marc A. Wolfe: Hello, Naomi Kent. Thank you for joining The Yeah But Podcast. 

Naomi Kent: Hi, Marc. Thank you for having me.

Marc A. Wolfe: Let’s jump right in. So, Naomi, tell me three things people need to know about you. 

Naomi Kent: Something that I’m very passionate about that may not be as obvious online is I’ve done a lot of long distance training sports.

So I’ve done a lot of Ironman. I’ve done a lot of long distance swimming. And I, I love doing this, this type of exercise because I think it, it creates a lot of discipline. And it’s, there’s a lot of training. The actual race itself is probably the shortest thing that you’re going to do. So you spend, you spend nine months training for 12 hours, um, of, of work, but, but the discipline there is really important to me and I enjoy that. 

Naomi Kent: Another thing I talk a lot about is having a winning mentality. And I feel like doing hobbies and having sports and things that you do on a regular basis just create just a little bit of a winning feeling every day. So it could be hey, I woke up at 5:30 am and I, I swam for 40 minutes, right? Um, you sort of feel like you’ve accomplished something and that winning mentality for me is really, really important, even if it’s just something really small.

Um, so I, I believe in that and I feel like that’s what drives me every day. And then also something that might not be so obvious is I was born in Jakarta, Indonesia. So I lived until I was about eight years old in Asia. And so it was a very unusual upbringing in a very unusual childhood, but that I really embraced. I was in a classroom with kids from all over the world, and it was a phenomenal start, you know, to my life. And I sort of crave that, too. I crave a lot of diversity and the groups and the people that I work with and with the work that I do as well.

Marc A. Wolfe: That’s great. So I want to dive deeper into one of your statements. Tell me about one of these endurance, one of these long races. Tell me a quick story about something you did. Even you thought, Oh my gosh, what did I get myself into?

Naomi Kent: Yeah, I’ll tell you about a relay event that I did in Catalina Island swim, it takes about I don’t know, for one person, probably about 24 to 36 hours to swim. I did not do that, I did it in a relay. So you have about five or six people on a boat and then you take it in turns to swim for one hour. Um, and you swim, the boat goes all the way to Catalina Island and all the way back. So you really never had a chance to sleep because you were sort of eating and resting and then you slept for a couple of hours and then you had to get back in the water and swimming at night was something I did not expect to be as spooky as it was.

And interestingly, when you get to, I mean, you’re very exhausted and you’re tired and perhaps your nutrition isn’t doing as well as it should be. And you’re swimming in the dark and there’s plankton that kind of light up. The mind plays tricks on you. And so, uh, you sort of see, I was seeing eyes popping out of the water , almost like in those cartoons, right? When it’s at, it’s at night and you can see those eyes. 

And so, you really test yourself at one point, you know, do I want to give up right now? Right. Is this, is this too much for me? I swam twice at night. Uh, so one late in the evening and then one very early in the morning. So it’s a team effort in this particular case, we’re all under the same pressures. We’re all under the same circumstances.

I think also when you’re racing alone, it’s easier for you to sort of duck out, right, and sort of cheat on yourself and say well I’m, just gonna slow down here and maybe walk the rest of the marathon, right? But when you have people around you who rely on you, right, to do your part, because the faster you swim, the quicker we get to the other end. So I think that was definitely a driver. And I think if you can apply that into your career, it’s all about being a team player. 

And sports to me are absolutely essential. Um, I encourage people. I don’t have any children myself, but I encourage my friends to get their kids into sports because this team environment and working in a team really drives you and really holds you accountable and pushes you to an extent. Right? And so same thing in the workplace. I feel like when you have, whether you’re in a team that works exclusively alone or you work with other groups. Um, I think this kind of mentality comes into play as well.

Marc A. Wolfe: Great insight. And I love how you don’t just say it, but you live it out because it’s easy to say, Hey, you should do this. Have you ever done it? No, no, but you should. 

Marc A. Wolfe: So Naomi, Naomi Kent’s 20 year career is defined by her ability to build successful brands. She’s worked as a C-Suite partner and strategic advisor. She’s helped promote boards and help them with their culture and how they work with talent. And you’re a managing director at FelixCorp. And you provide executive career guidance.

You chair multiple organizations and help them with that. Plus you’re involved with the British American business council in Chicago. So that’s also something that is big here in Nashville. And you also help people with speaking and speaking development board service. 

So I have one more question about you. What do you wish people knew as soon as they met you that would help change the way they interact with you?

Naomi Kent: I think I probably have a high threshold for fear and risk. So, um, at a very young age, I started scuba diving. At the time I sort of felt like it was just a bit of fun and didn’t really know the dangers around it. I wasn’t, I wasn’t, so aware of it at the time.

But as you dive more and more and you see accidents happen and you see people get into trouble and you realize it’s actually a pretty dangerous sport, just like riding a bicycle. Actually, if you do a triathlon, right, it’s pretty dangerous if you fall off one of those 30 miles an hour. And so I think for me, I have always been the type of person to put myself into these uncomfortable situations. And I feel like the more uncomfortable situations you put yourself in, the higher your bar goes in terms of the pain threshold, right? That you can, you can take. 

And so, I think it’s important to be putting yourselves into uncomfortable positions and that might be career wise going for that job that isn’t quite, you’re not quite there yet, but putting yourself out there to take it because you know that I you can do most of it, right? But maybe you can’t do all of it, but that’s okay. Um, and then even in your hobbies and your lifestyle and, and, and things that you do, um, think when you live a very comfortable life, any kind of discomfort is, is going to be really painful. And so, I think, Um, I think it’s important. 

And actually, during, um, the pandemic, I didn’t really scuba dive very much. Um, and as soon as I got back into it, I realized how important it was in my life to have that. Because there’s a lot of preparation, and for those of you who are listening, who  do any kind of sport that is on the sort of dangerous side and it, and it could even be cycling right in the mountains. Um, but you know, skydiving or any kind of scuba diving or rock climbing or anything like that, you know, that you have to prepare very, very well beforehand. So having your own equipment, making sure it’s tested, making sure that you’re diving or you’re you’re partnering up with the right person that you know them.

So for me, putting yourself in these situations really just brings out a lot of skills and a lot of areas of your character that maybe you didn’t know existed. And I think that can also drive you in your career. And like I said, you’ll be less likely to think, well, I’m going to take a risk with my career and I don’t know, move across country, move, move internationally, right? With my family. Um, because I know that this opportunity is good for me. Whereas I know there are a lot of people who just won’t do that. That’s just a little scary for them. So I think, you know, always test yourself, always be pushing yourself. 

And it’s not about, once a year, I’m going to, you know, bungee jump. Um, it’s about little things all the time. Right. And, and putting yourself in that discomfort zone. Right. And making sure that you’re always pushing forward. So I, I believe in, and I think you talk about this a lot on your podcast. It’s, it’s professional and it’s personal, but they interact so much together and they create your character as, as you mature.

Marc A. Wolfe: It’s, yeah, thank you for bringing that up. It’s interesting what people take as risk. You’d mentioned your youth, you were going to go and you’re like scuba dive. That looks like fun. Why don’t try it? And then you get exposed to, oh my gosh, this actually is a lot riskier and you could die doing this and never thought of it that way.

We talk about that in the book, that when people say it’s risky. And I’m like, well, what happens if you don’t do it and you’re stuck here? 

So it’s interesting how you integrate that and you make it all part to make sure that you always be working on that.

Naomi Kent: Yeah. And I, and I think risk, if you don’t take a risk, you can, you’re never going to know. Right. And, and don’t get me wrong. I’ve taken risks on all kinds of things, different investments that didn’t work out, um, you know, jobs or careers that you sort of switch and go, okay, this didn’t work out. Let’s move. Maybe you’re in a location and you say, you know what, I like where I’m living, but it’s, it’s not the best. Let me see if I can, you know, find a better place for me and my family. And, uh, So I, you know, there are, there are times when you kind of have to consider these things and you have to make the right decision.

I think the more you put yourself in a position, um, it, it becomes less scary. It just does. Right. 

Marc A. Wolfe: So let’s talk about some of the “yeah, buts” that you brought up.

Marc A. Wolfe: So one of your “yeah, buts” is “Yeah, but…I’m not sure I can do it”. So what particular moment and what was this around that you said, “Yeah, but…I’m not sure I can do it”?

Naomi Kent: Yeah, so you mentioned it briefly before. I work closely with individuals who are starting a board career. So they’re looking for corporate boards, and many of them come to me with this, this phrase, which is, you know, I’m just I’m not ready for it, it’s not for me, I don’t think I can do it. And what I tend to do is just by asking a few simple questions and understanding what they have done so far in order to try and achieve the goal and then to see that actually their strategic plan isn’t quite the right plan, and then figuring out what is the correct plan. Then actually it doesn’t look that scary. And so when a lot of people go into things, initially they go in with perhaps a mindset or a vision of something that might be incorrect. And then once they speak and once they understand what is actually involved, they realize that it’s, it’s actually not that scary at all. 

Naomi Kent: And I’ll give one example. Um, in 2004, I’d been doing triathlons for many years and, Ironman is, is the, the longest triathlon that exists. Yeah. And I, I thought, well, there’s no way I could ever do that. I mean, I consider myself fairly fit and healthy, but that seems like it’s for, you know, the, the, the sort of professionals, right?

That’s something elite athletes. And I was in, uh, I went to a networking event in New York City. I was living in New York at the time and it was a triathlon group or it was something around bicycles or something. And I just ended up in a little group and there was a woman there that said she had done eight Ironman. And I was just blown away. This was a regular person. Okay. This was not, you know, a famous elite athlete who was sponsored by TYR. You know, this, this, this was someone who just had a regular job and loved doing long distance racing. And it sort of just hit me right there. And, and I said to her, I said, well, how is it that you’ve done Ironman? And she said, Oh, anybody can do it. I said, Oh, really? What do you mean? And she said, there’s only one thing you need. And I said, what’s that? She said, time. You just need time because you need time to train and you need time to get your nutrition in check. You need time. Sure. You need dedication and all these other things, but actually the number one thing is time.

So if you have time to do it, you can do it. And at that point, literally next day I started, I signed up for Ironman and I worked on my Ironman training. Um, and then I did two back to back. Um, so I haven’t done eight, so I’m nowhere near what she was back then. I’m sure she’s done more, but she just loved it.

She loved it, loved it anyway. Um, but my whole point is, is once you break something down, you realize it’s actually pretty achievable. Um, and, uh, and, and, and if you, and if you research. And you ask people and you ask for help, you’ll actually realize something that seems really scary might actually not be.

Marc A. Wolfe: Wow. It’s a, I love stories where a random person seriously just literally comes into your life and says one thing and it changes everything, right? Like you knew what Ironman were, you knew what was going on. You knew how difficult they were. You knew what your reason for wanting to do it or not do it.

But it’s one person that says something to you. The next thing you know, you do it twice. So, and that’s what this is about, right? This podcast is about. They might not know you, but all of a sudden they’re like, hold on. She doesn’t look like, and wow, she’s from where? And the more people get to know other people, the more they can see their own story in other people and go, well, if they can do it, why couldn’t I?

I was like, no one said you couldn’t except you. 

Marc A. Wolfe: So, but, so you mentioned about being risk averse, but one of your “yeah, buts” is “Yeah, but it’s not safe”. It’s risky. So, what, what’s that all about?

Hey there. It’s time for a quick break. While we’re diving into how to live, learn and lead better, I wanted to let you in on something I’m really excited about. If you’ve ever found yourself stuck in the yeah, but cycle, those moments where excuses get in your way of your potential. My new book, Yeah, But…Cut Through the Noise to Live, Learn and Lead Better is for you. The book is packed with practical strategies, real stories, and actionable advice to help you stop making excuses and start making progress. Whether you’re a leader, a learner, or just someone looking to cut through the noise, Yeah, But has something for you. And here’s the best part, for a limited time you can grab a chapter for free.

Just head over to my website at www. marcawolfe.com/book to get started. Readers have already said that the perspective and stories guided them to get unstuck and move forward. All right, let’s get back to the show and dive into more ways to break through those “yeah, but” moments.

Naomi Kent: So, um, so again, when you think through some of the ways that people approach, you know, change and transformation in their lives, frequently, they see it as something that’s a little bit too risky. And for a lot of people, what’s actually holding them back is the fear of failing. And so, they would rather do nothing. And I, I think we’re talking here about all these achievements I’ve had, but I can tell you as many places and things that I’ve failed at, right? That, that happened at the same time, but I would never have achieved the things I did if I hadn’t gone out there and done it. Right?

Um, I’ll give you an example. So many people, the night before an Ironman, don’t do the Ironman the next day. They freak out. They, they, or they get in the water for five minutes and freak out.

And they stop. And they don’t complete the race. Um, you’ll see people getting pulled out of the water by people in kayaks. Or they’ll just be hanging onto a kayak going, I know how to swim 2.4 miles, but I’ve just, done 300 meters and I can’t go any further, right? It’s overwhelming. 

So it’s not that you just go and you train and you do the race. There’s so many points of failure and no one wants to come back from saying to all their friends, Hey, I signed up for an Ironman. And then the day after saying, Oh yeah, I didn’t do it. That’s really bad. And I never wanted to be that person, but that didn’t phase me from doing it. And I think a lot of people feel like they’re going to fail at something and they don’t want to feel that way.

And I get that. And that’s not a good feeling. Um, but the risk involved in that means that you’ll never do it. Right. And, and if we take the example of getting onto a corporate board, some people talk themselves out of it and say, well, I just could never do it. So I’m not going to try because again, They’re afraid of failure, but often the their idea of a board of directors perhaps isn’t the quite the right fit, right? 

Naomi Kent: So for me, it’s the, the, if you, you can reduce the risk right around something that you’re doing, if you, you plan it out well, and actually I have three P’s when I think about any of this stuff.

It’s, um, prepare, position, and pursue. Right? So preparation is all around knowing how do I get ahead? What is it? I need to be doing. You can apply that to an Ironman. You can apply that to a job. You can apply that to anything in life positioning yourself in the right way. So how do I get myself to a position where I’m going to be successful?

Maybe it’s training. Maybe it’s understanding the role of the board of directors and having a great personal pitch and then finally pursuing going after it. . So, you know, it’s all about preparing, positioning and pursuing the right activities.

And if you do it with the right things that feel good for you, and then you slowly increase that, um, the chances of you failing, I think are a lot less.

Marc A. Wolfe: Thank you for making it memorable, right? Because people need things that are memorable. Three Ps, right? Stories. 

It’s interesting how most “yeah, buts” are in people’s heads. Just like someone taking all that time to train for an Ironman and then not doing it, my gosh, that’s, you know, it’s, Great stories. Great stories. 

Naomi Kent: It’s true. It, it, it hurts. It hurts a little bit. Um, I, I think though that, um, when you are planning out anything, if you haven’t done the planning and the preparation properly, then usually that’s what goes wrong. Um, so again, the person and I know a few people who have struggled in the swim in an Ironman, right?

And I’ve had to been pulled out. And most of them, if you ask them, they’ll say, Yeah, I didn’t feel good that morning. I didn’t sleep well. I didn’t, you know, I in my head, all these things were going on. Um, I didn’t feel I had trained properly. And so there’s always something behind it. Uh, I feel like that confidence has to come through, but, um, you know, yeah, sometimes we do have to say we failed, um, that’s okay. 

Marc A. Wolfe: You know, you had another, “yeah, but” when it ties right into your three P’s, it’s what’s the plan. So what advice do you give to somebody struggling that are real planners and they need everything access to a whole plan, but they can’t get it because you can’t plan everything.

Naomi Kent: Yeah, so you’ve got to, you, well, you know, you, you have to have a, a plan for something that does go wrong. I love talking about military training and all of these things and military training is all about scenario planning. Right. And business. We do it as well on boards. It’s done all the time.

Strategic planning is done all the time it’s not a case of, well, should we spend 5 million here or should we spend 5 million there? It’s what is the impact and short term, medium term, long term, and then looking at all the areas that would be impacted, um, and bringing in experts like a legal counsel to understand the legal requirements, a tax expert to understand the tax requirements if you’re going to expand into this country or expand your product line.

And so, um, you know, that the planning piece needs to be not just planning. But actually planning for the for the failure. And what is it that I’m going to do? 

If you’re a company that’s doing something for the first time, or you’ve got one or two competitors, and they’re just not doing something, um, try it out. See if it works. Maybe they failed at it, but maybe you can make it work, right? So there’s plenty of things that you can do. 

Um, and the planning part I think is, is around this sort of scenario planning, which will help you to think through other thing I would say. 

And, um, as a scuba diver, um, you really do need to train a lot. And I feel like the more years that I’ve been diving, the more I have seen, right? So I’ve seen someone panic underwater. I’ve seen someone get caught up in a line. I’ve been caught up in the line and I’ve had to unwrap myself. And then I’ve looked around and my buddy is gone and maybe there’s three feet of visibility and I can’t see where they are. Um, and so what do I do? Do I sit in panic? Do I just remain calm? Cause nothing really is going wrong at this point. If I lose my buddy, it’s not the end of the world, right? I can get myself back to the surface alone. So, but I know that because I’ve done it before. 

Naomi Kent: So the more you put yourself, and this goes back to my original point of the more you put yourself into situations that are uncomfortable, the more you will be okay with the discomfort. Um, you know, a lot of businesses during when COVID first kind of started and, you know, people were being moved about and nobody knew what was going on. 

Same thing with dangerous sports. You have to be ready for every eventuality, and you have to be thinking fast on your feet, too, because sometimes it’s a case of a second by second, especially in diving, right? You could die in three seconds. 

If you have a PR crisis, right, you may need to respond pretty quickly on that. So you need to have a lot of decisions made in a very short space of time. So going back to your point, I think that, um, that plan, uh, needs to be flexible and needs to be able to change, but then you create a new plan, uh, based on what is it, what is happening right now.

Marc A. Wolfe: And, you know, you talk about planning and the military is a great example because a lot of people believe I have a plan, but they don’t test the plan. I mean, my biggest example of that is when people say they have a backup of their information or the data. And I was like, have you ever restored it right to get it? They’re like, well, no, I just know it’s backed up to the cloud. I was like. Well, have you ever taken it? They’re like, no, I was like, okay, you don’t really have a plan. You have what you hope is aspirationally a plan. And that’s what you’re talking about. You can’t plan for COVID. But what you can do is plan for things that are unplanned, which means if we don’t know what to do, how do we react?

What I’m continuing to hear from you is the more you push your tolerance, the more you expose yourself to more things than you possibly could have imagined if you just expose yourself to understanding and adapting a little bit more.

Naomi Kent: Yeah, that, that, that’s absolutely right. And, and everybody’s, uh, everybody’s idea of what something, what is risky is, is totally different. 

Marc A. Wolfe: You’re right. We can’t always look to others for how it will affect our lives because we uniquely process things differently. 

And we just spoke about where if I took 10 people and we put them on the same exact plan, we would get different results. Why? Because of the way they think because of their desire, because of the outcome they want, because of the stage of life they’re in, it’s a beautiful thing to be able to know that you can’t just say, apply this and it’ll work. It’s gotta be internalized, personalized for that unique individual.

Naomi Kent: What I said earlier about having a little bit of a winning feeling every day, you know, you need to feel proud of yourself. And that’s a great thing for your mindset, for your energy, for your confidence, the way you walk, right, the way you dress and how you approach people and speak to people. 

And if you don’t feel like you’re winning, even at the slightest thing. I do a lot of gym training and CrossFit and, you know, we see people coming into the gym who really have never worked out and for them, you know, they go from lifting, I don’t know, 50 on a bar to 100 on a bar in six months. That’s a huge thing for them right now. For most people, that might be easy. That would be their lowest weight. But for that person, that was a win. 

And so, really celebrating your wins on a daily basis, whether it’s like you said, hey, I didn’t drink the can of soda for breakfast. Um, you know, I, I chose to actually eat or drink something else, you know, give yourself a pat on the back.

That should be about winning, not about just sort of feeling down about it because you missed out on something. 

Marc A. Wolfe: Naomi, it’s, it’s been great having a conversation with you. And again, I learned something every time we discuss, I think a lot of people are going to come away with, man, she was really motivating and honest and being able to do this. And I, that’s why every guest that I have on, I never really know how things are going to go because when people really open up and they give of themselves. We’re gonna have your information and everything in the show notes. Any other closing thoughts as we put this, uh this show to rest?

Naomi Kent: I hope I, uh, I won’t be interested to hear if I inspire anybody to go and do Ironman. I’m not, I’m not going back to do it, just so everybody knows. But, um, I would inspire, and you know what, it’s not about Ironman. Ironman is, is, is a huge thing. It takes years, uh, right, to, to kind of get there.

But, but, um, sometimes it can just be, you know, a 5k, one mile, right? Just, just get out, um, if you know that it’s important. Health is important to people and it should be, um, and, and just give yourself a tiny goal, right? And again, you’ll feel like you’re winning if you achieve it, right? Hey, I walked one mile today, or I jogged one mile.

I was able to do it for a whole mile. So, you know, and don’t compare yourself to others. You know,, you have your own scale of what’s the best and what’s the worst. And so work across your own scale. But, uh, but yeah, I hope, uh, I hope I do inspire for anyone that is, please let me know.

Marc A. Wolfe: Well, thanks for being on the show. They’ll be able to contact you and be able to know more and thanks for being and sharing your “yeah, buts”.

Naomi Kent: Thank you for having me as well.

Marc A. Wolfe: Thank you for listening to  The Yeah, But Podcast. If today’s episode provided valuable perspective on how to overcome the excuses that can hold you back, let us know in the comments. Remember, it’s not about the “yeah, but”, it’s about finding ways to live, learn, and lead better every day. If you enjoyed this episode, be sure to subscribe, leave a review and share it with someone who could use a little kick to get past their “yeah, but”, and don’t forget to follow us on Spotify or Apple Podcasts.

And for even more tips, connect with me at marcawolfe.com/podcast or on LinkedIn. Until next time, keep challenging those excuses and keep moving forward.

We Listen: Please leave us your review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or YouTube Podcasts.

Former CIA intelligence collector Bonnie Stith reveals how inaction isn’t just a missed chance—it can have consequences far greater than the cost of failure.

About Bonnie Stith

Bonnie works with leaders and organizations to create success by developing strategic plans aligning leadership and culture with mission, vision, and values. As an executive coach, she helps leaders define, understand, and achieve desired professional and organizational successes.

Bonnie is an ICF-credentialed Professional Coach and an experienced public speaker on topics ranging from cyber threats and assessments to leadership styles and values. She has taught and facilitated various leadership-focused courses at the Central Intelligence Agency, taught courses in US Government and Political Science as a University Adjunct Professor, and currently teaches for a coach training program. She is also a board member for several organizations in the cybersecurity and healthcare industries.

Bonnie’s contact info

• LinkedIn
• Website

Marc’s links

• Get a free chapter of his book: ‘Yeah, But’
• Interested in being on the Yeah, But Podcast?

Follow Marc A. Wolfe on social media for more resources:

• LinkedIn
• X

Transcript

Introduction to Bonnie

Marc A. Wolfe: Today, we’re going to be speaking with Bonnie Stith. And we’re going to be having a conversation about her “yeah, buts”. So, Bonnie, I got a question just to kick us off, because I know people don’t know you, but what’s one thing that you wish they knew about you sooner?

Bonnie Stith: That my last name is Stith. And

Marc A. Wolfe: I still blew it even after I said I was going to go.

Bonnie Stith: You can go. I mean, typically, um, I would just say, you know, most people say Smith and then they can’t find me or Scythe. Um, and I, as I’ve said to my kids, just get used to like telling people how to spell your name and pronounce it. Okay. Cause that is, that will be your life. So no worries, Marc.

Marc A. Wolfe: Thank you.

Bonnie Stith: And the kicker is we rehearsed it beforehand and you still, you still did it. So, okay. So now that I’ve got you a little off balance, I think maybe that’s the thing that I, you know, I wish. So I wish people knew about me is that I’ve got a pretty good sense of humor. And I can laugh at myself very, very, more than I can laugh at others, probably.

Marc A. Wolfe: So, that’s pretty disarming to be able to know that you’re going to be able to laugh at yourself and laugh through things.

Bonnie Stith: If you can’t, then it’s going to be just a bleak world. It really is. Cause, cause there is a lot of funniness going on out here.

Marc A. Wolfe: But there definitely is. It doesn’t matter what side of the world you’re on, right?

We all have, uh, different things that we’re addressing. You know, I could read your bio and I will go over it, but are we really are bios? Is that exactly who we are? Or is that what we’ve done?

Bonnie Stith: Your bio is a list of accomplishments. You know, I always think of it as if you think, you know, in the days when everybody take their, their flat self on trips with them, right? I mean, your bio is kind of your flat self. It shows what you did, but who are you?

And, and I’m so much more intrigued by who people are than what they’ve done. I think what they’ve done is, is magnificent. I mean, it can show you that they’ve got grit. It can show you that they stick through it, that they, they take risks or they don’t take risks, or they make money or they don’t make money.

It can, it can show you a lot of things like that. But, um, but when it comes down to it, it’s like, who are you and how did you do all that?

Marc A. Wolfe: As you think about that, right, and you think about why people, especially on podcasts, they lead with, you know, a list of what they’ve done, and that’s the first thing that people get to find out about them is, here’s, here’s this list, and then they, what you just said, right, it’s more important to know that you’re funny, it’s more important to know that you really actually care a lot about your family.

In the short time I’ve known you, you mention your family almost every conversation of multiple times, right?

But If I, I listed what you did working for the CIA, is that normally a place that people love their family and talk about them and lead with them and lead about humor?

Bonnie Stith: Well, I mean, I think when you look at a bio, I mean, if you look at the typically most people’s bios at the very end, it says, you know, is married and has kids, right?

As if that’s somehow the footnote to their life as opposed to their life.

You know, I can remember as a young person, when I first joined the agency, I worked for at the time it was you married the agency, I mean, for women. And I was very acutely aware even in those days that institutions don’t return or reward affection. And so I was watching women who were ready to retire going home to dogs and cats or elderly parents. And they were the cool aunt or the weird aunt, whichever you liked, um, you know, that brought home masks from, you know, Africa or, you know, or like, or things from Latin America or, you know, or, or, you know, Southeast Asia in those days. So there was a, there was a lot of that coolness piece . But you know, I was, I was always struck with the idea of like, is that who and how I want to be when it’s all over and done with?

And it wasn’t that I was racing around looking for a husband to marry, because that was not on my radar in the day. But, but I knew that there was more to life than an institution.

Marc A. Wolfe: Well, it’s, it’s great you realized that early because I think a lot of people in previous generations did exactly what you tried to avoid, right?

Bonnie Stith: Well, I mean, there were societal limitations. I mean, you know, daycare wasn’t a thing. So if you had kids, you stopped working. I mean, in the career that I was in, you moved around a lot. And so most husbands don’t follow wives. It’s so much more common now. I mean, and I know women who are my age, whose husbands have chosen to be the primary caregivers at a time when it was traditionally not the thing to do.

And their wives are incredibly successful and their children are, you know, their children have got great foundations. Everybody’s doing well, but that wasn’t the role model that I had in front of me growing up. And it wasn’t the modeling that I saw at the agency in the day.

It was, women followed men. Which meant that I had, I had friends who had followed their husbands, sometimes came back at a lower grade than they left.

And so they were constantly repeating over and over again.

Marc A. Wolfe: Thanks for, thanks for sharing that. So let’s, let’s kind of frame out your bio a little now that we know that it’s not, I think it’s a lot easier to read it.

How Bonnie entered the CIA

Bonnie Stith: My career started when I applied to an ad in the school newspaper at 22 years old, and I joined the agency a month shy of my 23rd birthday.

I can remember having a conversation with my husband about what am I going to do in Valdosta, Georgia. When he called to say, Hey, I got assigned it, we were living in San Antonio and, um, and I had managed to arrange a detail assignment out to the military for three years. So I was still an agency employee and working with the military. First of all, I didn’t even know where that was, but the other part of it was, um, there was an, a Starbucks there. That was a big deal. What am I going to do when we get there? Cause there won’t be a job for me.

And we had a conversation that was really short lived about, should I go back to Washington, take the kids and him go do this command assignment, or should we figure something else out?

And so in that case, when the, what about me came up, it was, you’ve talked about doing a master’s degree. What do you think about doing that this time? And so I said, you know what, you’re right. So let me go look at what I need to do for a master’s degree. That was the response to that versus separating our family for jobs.

It was like, you know what? I could go increase my education.

Yeah, but… I’m too old or too young

Marc A. Wolfe: And you were at the agency for?

Bonnie Stith: 34. 34 years.

So you know it when you look at the “yeah, but” piece of it, we were talking about kind of the, am I too old or am I too young piece? When I joined the agency at 22, I knew that at 50 it was retirement age. Well, listen, at 22, I wasn’t thinking about 50 ever. I was thinking about going overseas, doing something cool, and then going back to California.

And so, but I was really young and I was at the very young end of the people coming in. And I would hear that “yeah, but” you’re too young. Or once you’re older, you’ll understand this.

And so constantly being judged about my age certainly created a certain dynamic where I felt like I had to be tougher and then you get in the mindset of once you pass that magical date where like, I’m in this for life. You know, or 50, whichever comes first.

And I had two jobs that I was looking at at the agency, two opportunities. And somebody asked me, what’s the reason you can’t do both of them? And it came, it came up. I’ll be too old.

Marc A. Wolfe: So you started with, I’m too young because I don’t get respect because I’m so young. And so, and by the time you achieve something, then you’re too old and you got to go, or we’re done with you or?

Bonnie Stith: So is it mindset or is it reality?

In the career service I was in, and certainly, in the retirement system, there was a maximum you could be age-wise unless you made a certain grade. And so I did make that grade that I could stay forever and yet still chose to not be there because you know what, it was time to go do something else.

And back to that, “yeah, but”. I could stay here and keep doing that, but what else is out there?

Marc A. Wolfe: So what helped you get unstuck from what people were trying to put on you with that, “yeah, but”?

Bonnie Stith: You know, it’s interesting. I was having a conversation with a couple of women here a while back.

And I think foundationally, I had a father who told me I could do anything I wanted to do. And I believed him.

And because my earliest orientation was somebody telling me I could do anything I wanted to do, I didn’t believe what other people told me. I was talking to a leader in industry here not too long ago. And he’s in a second marriage and they’ve just had a daughter and he’s got older sons. And he said, you know, but with this one, I really feel this great need to protect her.

And my conversation with him was really about don’t protect her. Tell her she can do everything. Let her try, let her do it, because the world is going to let her know what she can’t do.

Marc A. Wolfe: What’s something you think people misunderstand about you?

Bonnie Stith: I do think that people might think I’m more confident than I am.

Yeah, but…I’m not sure I can do it

Marc A. Wolfe: And I know it sounds weird to say, but what do you, sometimes you misunderstand about yourself?

Cause it leads up to your “yeah, but I’m not sure I can do it”.

Bonnie Stith: So, so I want to reframe that “yeah, but I’m not sure I can do it”, to “yeah, but”, what if I don’t do it?

I mean, maybe it’s, it’s FOMO, maybe it’s fear of missing out. I don’t know. But I know it’s really scary and I accept that it’s going to be scary and I know that it’s risky, and I accept that it’s going to be risky, but what if I don’t?

Marc A. Wolfe: Tell me more about what that looks like, the missing out, the not doing it.

Bonnie Stith: I mean, I can tell you, so I applied for this ad in the school newspaper, right? Like if you like cruising, you know, in foreign affairs and foreign languages and traveling abroad, you should apply for a job at the CIA. And I thought, well, I like traveling abroad. I studied, I mean, I majored in foreign languages in college. I traveled overseas a couple of times. I’d done a year abroad in college. I thought, sounds like a place for me.

Well, I get the call saying, and I was working at the time I graduated. I was working in a, in a, in the software industry in California. And so Silicon Valley was really starting to take off.

The guy that I was working for was, he was the president of the company, was going to move to another company. And said, I want to take you with me as my, my executive officer. So obviously there was already a path going, and yet I get this call from the agency saying, hey, we want to hire you, and you need to report to Washington DC on this date.

So, one of them was a path that was going to be interesting, but, and it was going to take me further in an area that I was already doing, but I knew that that working with him, I was going to continue to go up.

The other was, is it a good thing I’m getting hired here? And, you know, it looks like a great salary, but when you get to Washington, D.C., you realize there is no great salary because it is very, very expensive to live there, even in the early eighties. And at the time I remember thinking, I know kind of what this is going to be, but what if I don’t do this?

Marc A. Wolfe: It was worth the risk.

Bonnie Stith: Yes, it was worth the risk because it, my whole life is. You know, going forward is based on that decision of stay or go.

Marc A. Wolfe: But you don’t have regrets. It doesn’t sound like you have regrets picking the choice you made.

Bonnie Stith: I think the things that I regret are missed time with family. I chose a career that took me away from my family.

But when you talk about in the space of doing things that I wanted to be doing, basically getting opportunities that I wouldn’t have gotten in any other career.

Living overseas, which was always my goal and being part of, you know, of history in some places.

What Bonnie does for the CIA

Marc A. Wolfe: Tell me more, tell me more about some of the things that you did that were, because we only talked about the CIA a little, we didn’t really even talk about your position at the CIA yet. So people are like, okay, she worked for the CIA, most people don’t know what they do, and they don’t even, and they don’t even know, like, so, so, let us in.

Bonnie Stith: Yeah. My job when I went into CIA is I joined the clandestine service. And so at that point I was being trained to go overseas, and collect intelligence. And, and in the day it was a human-to-human thing.

You know, I met you, you had access, and I worked with you to get the things that the government needed to inform them on whatever. And so, so that’s what I was, a human intelligence collector.

Marc A. Wolfe: And when you say you, you don’t mean me, you mean some other person, just so for clarification.

Bonnie Stith: Marc, if you had secrets, I’d be all over it. Um, no, yeah, exactly. Right. But I mean, that’s the thing. It was a human to human thing, because, because what I’ve realized, in order to get information, you have to talk to people.

As I moved through my career, I moved into other areas because, you know, the beauty of the agency is you don’t have to be one thing the whole, the whole time.

It could be other things. So I got involved in resource management, obviously, I got detailed out to the Air Force and worked with the military to build exercises, war exercises. And then in my final job, I was running a cyber intelligence organization.

Marc A. Wolfe: So as we talk about, “yeah, buts”, the reason I mentioned why I picked that specifically for the title of my book, Yeah, But…Cut Through the Noise to Live, Learn, and Lead Better,

it’s mostly our internal dialogue saying we can’t, because we already know people tell us like we can’t do lots of things we listen that we crawl up in a hole and do nothing because we’re like, everybody says I can’t do this. There’s a chapter in the book called “yeah, but” not where I’m from, right? Because you don’t see people around that are successful.

So what did you do to minimize the impact of the excuses, how do you keep that going as you age and other excuses come up and other things?

Bonnie Stith: I mean, for me, it’s, it’s, you know, I mean, and I speak from a place of privilege, I get that it could always be worse. But I I’m, I’m kind of what you call the eternal optimist,

And I, and I think I deliberately set out to create the circumstances for it to be better. So I marry this, this air force guy and we start trying to figure out how to juggle careers. We start talking about whether we want to retire in San Antonio because that’s where we are and we’re looking at it.

And then all of a sudden I get this phone call from this person at work at headquarters that I don’t know. And I’m thinking, well, I guess I’m going to get fired. And he says you’ve been promoted.

In the meantime, Bob has gotten this assignment to Valdosta, Georgia. So the whole idea of staying in San Antonio is out the window because it’s a command assignment and squadron command is, is a dream of every Air Force officer I know. And so why shouldn’t he get to live that dream that he’s got? And that’s when it came to the “yeah, but” what about me?

Well, you’ve talked about going back and getting a master’s degree, but even getting there was a “yeah, but” about me getting to San Antonio, because they just come up with this cool new system in the, in the intelligence community about what they called community assignments. And when Bob got assigned to San Antonio, a person I knew at the agency, who was a Navy officer that was detailed said, Hey, there’s this guy coming in from this place in San Antonio, and there is a community assignment position there.

And so, so you can sit in that “yeah, but” what about me, and not do anything. Or you can say, “yeah, but” what about me and make it happen?

Marc A. Wolfe: But so you took a “yeah, but” what about me? And people can sit in that and go, I feel like I’m losing my identity, I feel like I’m living for someone else. And again, it might not be a spouse.

It might be parent’s expectations. It might be society’s expectations and you follow this path. But what I heard you do and what we talk about in the book is “yeah, but” so what now, what right? Like, so now if this is the truth and we know this in coaching, right? So you’re like, okay, well, if you’re telling me this is a stated fact.

What are you going to do now that you know that, right? And it sounds like you took and said, okay, well, what are the other options? What, what could be possible? What can we do differently? How can we play this? But it sounds like you had support, Bonnie. Like it sounds like you and Bob even again, I don’t know him, but I’m thinking you had a discussion and did this, what happens when there’s resistance and you have to work through your “yeah, but” in a way where you’re not getting that, let’s do this together kind of thing.

How coaching helped Bonnie

Bonnie Stith: And that’s a really good question. And so I will tell you that some of the most powerful coaching I ever got was in coach training from, um, a young lady who was 21 years old. And so there I was, you know, old enough to be her mother at least. We were having this conversation, he was ready to retire, I wasn’t ready to retire. So I, I get this coaching and it really came down to the, the topic was, I just feel really mad a lot. And I’m not sure why I’m mad. And what came out was, I was mad because we were constantly having this pull And the belief that somehow or other, I was going to have to be unhappy for him to be happy.

So the assignment was, you know, essentially my homework assignment was, go home and have a conversation about what the possibilities could be.

So I said to him that night, when I got home, I said, we need to have a conversation. And of course, his first thought is like, are we getting divorced?

And I said, I hope not. That’s not my plan, but I said, I’m, I just, we just need to have some sort of an understanding about what this could look like. You know, what could we do differently? What could, what could we accept? What could we allow? And in that conversation, we agreed that we didn’t have to be on the same timeline.

And so there was an opportunity for him to take an early retirement and move to Kentucky and go into business with his brother. And it became a logistics question. The “yeah, but” what about me piece had already been taken off the table.

And I think that was a pivotal moment for both of us, because it allowed me to stay and do what I wanted to do, and ultimately get to be in my dream job for a year.

He was doing what he wanted to do. Which ultimately has resulted in both of us being in the same place again, happy.

Marc A. Wolfe: Thanks for sharing that story. I think people have a really difficult time navigating relationships and work and, you have life, and work is a part of it, right? It’s not a, it’s, it’s, we’ve made so many myths about things. I was like, you have a life, you have 1440 minutes a day, what you do with it is how you fill that life with things. And, and you mentioned about coach training and, and coaching, so that’s not a CIA-related thing. You did this on your own, even though I know you’ve helped people, coach people, help leaders.

Bonnie Stith: Actually, I did not. The CIA paid for me to be trained as a coach.

It started in the 90s. They brought coaching into the agency and it has gone, it has grown from there. I mean, there is a belief, I believe, that first of all, coaching can help you decide whether you want to be a leader or not.

Because there are people that really don’t want to be, but because of circumstances and promotions, all of a sudden you find yourself in a leadership position. And not only are you a poor leader, but you’re probably a poor manager too. So, so the decision piece, like do I want to be or don’t I want to be?

And then if I’m going to be, what are the things that, that I need to be working on? So, oh, absolutely. Agency is a big believer in coaching.

Marc A. Wolfe: Let’s take a quick pause to talk about something that could make a real difference in your organization. If you’re looking to develop strong, effective leaders or need help facilitating a critical meeting or event, I’ve got some solutions for you. With my leadership workshops, your team will learn how to cut through the excuses, communicate better and lead with confidence, whether it’s a small group or an entire company, these workshops are designed to create lasting impact.

And if you’ve got an important meeting event or project that needs facilitation. I’m here to make sure it runs smoothly and that every voice is heard. I bring a structured yet flexible approach that helps teams get unstuck and move forward. So whether you need a leadership boost or help facilitating an event, I’m ready to partner with you.

Let’s talk about how we can make it happen for you. Head to www.marcawolfe.com or reach out to me directly to get started. Now back to the show.

Bonnie Stith: I think I spent a lot of time talking to people about, I had a belief that, you know, that one of the responsibilities I had as a senior female was to reach out to other females and move them up. I believe strongly in a diverse workforce. And so I wanted, I wanted people around the table that didn’t look like me.

And I wanted people that had different experiences, because I think when we brought it together, we could create an organization that was incredibly powerful in its capability to do things.

So, so I was working on that from a very, you know, from a very early stage in the leadership piece.

It’s like, how do we get more people in, you know, in different roles? So at the time that I got promoted to senior executive, my belief was it was time to be pulling people up, pulling other women up. There’s a great book out by Liza Mundy called The Sisterhood that really speaks a lot about you know, some of the foundational days of women in the agency, many of whom I’ve known.

I just believed it was my, you know, it was kind of my responsibility on my way out the door to be pulling some up and having conversations about, look, I’m on my way out, but how about stepping up here?

Marc A. Wolfe: Because it’s like a session plan, leaving a legacy of other people to be able to do. I mean, that’s, isn’t that the goal is to be noticed without having to keep asking for it, but be noticed for your accomplishments?

Bonnie Stith: I mean, it might be an idealized view, but the reality of it is, Marc, is, you know, I mean, women wait to be asked to go on dates.

They wait to be asked to dance. They wait to be asked to be married. And so you either raise your hand and you’re identified as that pushy broad, or as many of us were told in school, and I would guarantee you if you asked a woman who’s at all assertive, she had a teacher that told her at one point, you’re too bossy, you talk too much, and the boys don’t like it when you tell them what to do.

Because you get that kind of programming, you wait to be asked, but who actually gets those opportunities, Marc, not people waiting to be asked, it’s people who are asking for them. And I think the piece that I really looked for was, I would have meetings with women who were at that point where, you know, I was asking them, are you ready to step in and step up? Because I know you’ve been waiting to be asked, and now I’m asking you.

Marc A. Wolfe: Are you seeing a change, Bonnie, that people you’re coaching are having conversations where at least they’re leaning into it more and less afraid?

“But I’m a girl”

Bonnie Stith: I think, you know, some of it’s situational. Some of it, I still hear the, “yeah, but” I’m a girl. I mean, I believe that if you see it, you can be it. I was having a conversation with somebody the other day about a health issue and she said, well, you know, this is what they told me. And I said, well, you got the girl diagnosis. And she persisted and there is a real issue there. And then my next question to her was, well, what do you, what are you thinking about as far as addressing this?

And she goes, well, you know, I mean, because it can be addressed, but it’s scary. And I said, I’m going to, I’d like to offer you a gift to think about. And she said, what’s that? I said, I would like you to think about what decisions you’re making based on your fear of going forward with, with any kind of treatment on this that are limiting your life. And so, they’re thinking about a cruise, but now she’s worried, well, what if I go on this cruise and I have one of these episodes? So maybe we shouldn’t go on that cruise. And I said I’m offering you a gift. I’d like you to think about how your quality of life is going to be impacted by not making a decision to go forward with treatment. I can’t tell you what to do because it’s, it’s your life.

Marc A. Wolfe: I love how you put that, a gift to think about.

Bonnie Stith: Yeah. Well, I think the reality of it is nobody wants, I mean, I said, I told somebody the other day, if you really want to get my teeth to grind, start your sentence with, here’s what you ought to do. Okay. I mean, and I know you, okay. So, I mean, when somebody starts a sentence with, well, here’s what you ought to do, I can, I can, I can feel my jaw clenching.

Right. So I could easily said to this person, well, what you ought to do is go get this done. Right. Right. As opposed to, here’s a gift to think about, because it’s not my decision to make for you. And that person I’m looking at, who showed that “yeah, but” can “yeah, but” it all they want to, but it’s not, “yeah, but” what if I do, it’s really going to be a “yeah, but”, what if I don’t.

Marc A. Wolfe: And then I can’t until I ever overcome this. But if I don’t take any steps, I may never. So my life becomes the worst of what it could be because I’m afraid of doing anything because I have this thing I won’t take care of again, we’re not condemning this person, right?

I don’t even know. But what I’m saying is that this just place this overlay, this over anyone’s “yeah, but”, it’s, here’s the way I’m going to limit my life. And then I have this self-deprecating world where everything’s horrible.

“Yeah, But…I’m not ready”

Marc A. Wolfe: You know, One of your other “yeah, buts” that you mentioned, Bonnie was, “Yeah, but I’m not ready”.

So tell me about that. Cause it sounds like, it sounds like you’re almost always ready, Bonnie.

Bonnie Stith: Well, I mean, I still have that internal conversation but I’m not ready to retire, but I’m not ready to do that, but I’m not ready to be that.

I think we can have that, that internal conversation all the time. My question to myself is if you’re not ready now, when will you be ready? If not now, when?

I think the biggest piece of it is, all growth requires risk. And I think if you can accept that all growth requires risk and that risk is hard. Because even with somebody that’s got a very low score around prudence or a low value around prudence, there’s still a risk.

And it’s not that I’m willing to take any risk because people that know me will tell you, I don’t risk money. I mean, there’s certain, I don’t risk my family. There’s certain things I don’t risk. I do have a high scale around mischievousness, which is another issue. But the reality of it is I accept that if I’m going to grow, it’s going to be hard, but the, but the opposite of growth is wither, and I’m not ready to wither.

Marc A. Wolfe: We’re going to wrap it up there. I mean, I think that’s what people need to hear right?

Is that in a world where you’re either growing or dying, right? Every day we’re actually, it sounds morbid, right? But every day we’re actually, it’s one step closer to a date.

Bonnie Stith: I know how the book ends. I mean, I’m going to be honest with you. I’ve seen this book, I’ve seen the movie, I know how it’s going to end.

That doesn’t mean that I have to like live, like it’s the end. It’s still like, it’s the beginning. And I think that’s back to where I say, I’ve got a kind of a Pollyanna view on life. I mean, I would, I would rather be like my grandfather at 94, shoveling chips in my front yard in a bucket and with my driver’s license in my pocket and have that heart attack than be sitting in my chair waiting for the heart attack.

I think that’s the “yeah, but” is I could not live. I think I’m going to go with “yeah, but”, I could live.

You know, the reality of it is, I think that there are good people that do the right thing because it’s the right thing to do.

And I think those are the people you find. And those are the people that I look for. And I’m going to tell you, if I’m finding them, there’s more of them than you think there are. And so, so that’s, that’s, you know, that’s what I would say. Find those people.

Marc A. Wolfe: Bonnie, I’m glad I chose you. Your stories were inspiring, their truth, you show that you can have still a balance of being with a partner, having a family, having a career, and actually, retiring where someone doesn’t have to lose for it to be.

If you could lean in and let people have one access to you for one thing that you love to do, and you know, you can help them with. Tell us a little bit more about what that is and how they can reach out so you can be in sync with them.

Bonnie Stith: I have a website, stithcoachingandconsulting.com. I am on LinkedIn. Um, if you reach out to, it’s Bonnie Stith, so you can contact me through LinkedIn. I would say that I’m, I’m what you call, I get it done kind of coach.

Marc A. Wolfe: Bonnie Stith, you are a rock star. I’m so glad I’ve worked with you and met you and this is not going to be our last conversation because you, you and I can talk a lot about it. Thank you for becoming part of The Yeah, But Podcast, and your stories may wind up in a lot of other places just because I think they’re, I know they’re inspiring to other people who can see beyond.

I didn’t work at that same place, but that is my story. I can’t believe you can share that in such an easy way. So thank you so much for that.

Bonnie Stith: Marc I appreciate the time with you, and I appreciate the opportunity. I mean, listen, I got stories for everything. So, um, I appreciate the opportunity to really maybe present a different view of, um, of how you can approach things.

Marc A. Wolfe: Bonnie, thank you so much for your time. Appreciate it.

Bonnie Stith: Thanks, Marc.

Marc A. Wolfe: Thank you for listening to The Yeah, But Podcast. If today’s episode provided valuable perspective on how to overcome the excuses that can hold you back, let us know in the comments. Remember, it’s not about the “yeah, buts”, it’s about finding ways to live, learn, and lead better every day. If you enjoyed this episode, be sure to subscribe, leave a review, and share it with someone who could use a little kick to get past their own “yeah, buts”. And don’t forget to follow us on Spotify and Apple Podcasts. And for even more tips, connect with me at marcawolfe.com/podcast. Until next time, keep challenging those excuses and keep moving forward.

We Listen: Please leave us your review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or YouTube Podcasts.

From flying at 30,000 feet to navigating challenges on the ground, pilots face their own ‘Yeah, Buts.’ Risk is constant, and the path forward isn’t always clear. How does one commercial airline captain turn turbulence into opportunities for growth and resilience?

About Jimmy Ward

From a young age, flying was in Jimmy’s blood. His Grandfather, a seasoned pilot in the United States Air Force, instilled a passion for aviation in his children by teaching them how to fly. His natural talent and unwavering dedication propelled him to new heights, quite literally. After completing his training and obtaining the necessary licenses, Jimmy embarked on an illustrious career as a commercial pilot. His expertise extended beyond a single aircraft, as he became proficient in flying three different commercial airliners, a remarkable feat in itself. Today, Jimmy stands as a testament to the power of passion and perseverance, honoring his father’s legacy with every successful journey.

Marc’s links

• Get a free chapter of his book: ‘Yeah, But’
• Interested in being on the Yeah, But Podcast?

Follow Marc A. Wolfe on social media for more resources:

• LinkedIn
• X

Transcript

Jimmy Ward: The inherent risk of failure, or injury, or even death is much greater in what I do, but we take on that risk everyday, right? If I couldn’t step in that airplane at 14, not knowing anything, if I didn’t take that first step, I wouldn’t be here where I am.

Marc Wolfe: Welcome to the Yeah, But Podcast, where leaders tune in when they want to be unstuck and unstoppable. I’m Marc Wolfe, president of Marc A. Wolfe Enterprises and author of Yeah, But …Cut Through the Noise to Live, Learn, and Lead Better. In each episode, I interview relatable people who share their Yeah, Buts, along with their doubts, fears, and alibis, and then share how to overcome them to unlock true potential.

Whether it’s personal growth, leadership challenges, or simply living with more intention, The Yeah, But Podcast is all about turning those excuses into actions. So if you’re ready to stop being held back and start moving forward, you’re in the right place. Let’s get started.

Hello, Jimmy Ward. Thanks for joining us on The Yeah, But Podcast.

Jimmy Ward: Thanks for having me. I’m glad to be here.

Marc Wolfe: You know, Jimmy, I want to tell people what you do, you would expect that some people that have your occupation would be interested.

His grandfather was a pilot in the United States Air Force and instilled a passion for aviation in his grandchildren and family by teaching him how to fly. His natural talent and unwavering dedication propelled him to new heights, literally. After completing his training and obtaining his license, Jimmy embarked on a career as a commercial pilot. He’s a captain and his expertise extended beyond a single aircraft as he became proficient in flying three different commercial airliners.

And what I think is even interesting, that’s not even on his bio is that Jimmy works in test planes to make sure they’re actually functioning correctly. That’s an extended part of his job is to make sure that all the parts and all the updates and all the everything else to get them back in service, to put them in the desert when they actually have to go and go offline.

And that’s just part of your job in addition to flying back and forth. And, uh, you have loved flying for as long as I’ve known you, there’s not a time I don’t hang around you where you’re not looking up and looking at a plane or wondering about that. So, Jimmy, tell us a little bit about this, this passion for flying, and how it ties into you being so structured and organized.

Jimmy Ward: Well, the passion did start a couple of generations ago with my grandfather. I was always enamored as a kid. Listening to him speak, about his combat experience as an aircraft commander to B 24 in the 8th Air Force in World War II, to be able to survive 31 missions in the war as an aircraft commander, see other crew members killed in action and to be in action. Because he did all these things that were so noble and courageous. And I want to be like that. And he passed these traits down to my dad and he’s a pilot as well. So he taught me, he was my instructor most of my way through my ratings.

Marc Wolfe: That’s a great story and I’ve seen pictures of you with your dad. I think one of the yeah, buts you mentioned was, yeah, but it’s not safe. It’s risky. You’re an airline pilot. So tell me about this it’s not safe thing.

Jimmy Ward: There’s an inherent risk in, in flying an airplane, or some people say an aluminum tin can, 600 miles an hour. So yes, I think risk can also equal reward if stewarded well. The inherent risk of failure, or injury, or even death is much greater in what I do, but we take on that risk everyday, right? If I couldn’t step in that airplane at 14, not knowing anything, if I didn’t take that first step, I wouldn’t be here where I am. So I had to rely on my mentor, my father. So I think a lot of the, yeah, but it’s risky needs to be just contained, like, yes, it is. I’m not going to live in fear of that. I’m going to embrace it and learn how to mitigate that risk and learn how to take certain strategies use my knowledge, and use my my discernment, so much so that it moves down.

Everything has inherent risk it’s just how you deal with it, and how you mitigate it, and how you treat it. You know, is it something that you’re going to be fearful of and just cave? Or are you going to embrace that and say, yeah, it’s risky, but the rewards are great and I’m going to do this.

Marc Wolfe: Thank you for that, Jimmy. You know, we talk about in the book about not doing something actually is a risk as well because there’s an obligation. To do things sometimes you’re gifted with some things that not doing it or ignoring it actually could put you in a worse position and people forget that they only think of risk as attempting something and they forget that not attempting something.

So it’s interesting that, you know, that statistically flying is safer than driving a car. But people don’t even walk around their car to see if anything’s even sticking out of the side of their tire. So, Jimmy, so when you look at risk, right, what do you, how do you discern like just overall how to move forward with something that, you know, generally people consider risky outside your profession, just overall.

Jimmy Ward: So I think you have to step back and you have to realize what you’re looking at, right?

And you have to make that decision, do I cower down and not accept the risk or do I embrace it and move forward? And you have to make that decision first in your mind of, no, this is doable.

If it’s the risk of me flying from A to B, there are a thousand threats along the way. Is it weather? Is it maintenance? Is it air traffic control, is it, well, what is the risk that I have today?

It’s all about mitigation, and wisdom and knowledge and building a team. It’s just everyday life, or test flying airplanes, or operating and leading a surgery team. So there’s different levels of risk, but managing it, seems to be very similar in how we do that.

Marc Wolfe: That leads to the next question. We have a yeah, but what’s the plan? Tell me more about how that can be a yeah, but that sometimes you have to overcome.

Jimmy Ward: Well, we all like to have plans, especially you and I. We’re type A’s, right? We like to have everything laid out, everything structured. But very rarely in life, is it that way? Right? We’re often throwing curve balls. That happened to us when I was a young pilot I had to achieve the certifications and licenses and ratings to fly for the airlines. So I did that at 23 which is absolutely the youngest age you could possibly do that.

When I was 27 I got a letter from the airline saying, thank you so much for your service, we no longer need you. It’s now post 9/11, and people aren’t flying in airplanes, so we don’t need pilots flying empty airplanes around, so thank you so much for your service have a nice day. So my point of the story is, the plan that I had was radically derailed by circumstances outside of my control. It’s just life,right? What does it look like when there’s no plan? How do you steward that well? Well, I think you just step up. So my plan was to start over. And I had some friends approach me, they were like ‘Hey we’re in the insurance industry’. Why don’t you come to work with us? I was like, oh, okay, have insurance. That’s about all I know about insurance.

So it was a 3-year period of learning, growing, and developing in a different field, right? That was the new plan. And it wasn’t clear at all. Because there was no plan. I was just doing something in the moment to take care of the family, to do what I had to do, which was a radical pivot from what I had been doing. But when you have a chance to do that, and you look back 20 years later, you know, I’m just filled with joy and gratitude for the skills that I learned, the people I met, the way I that I was able to grow in these skill sets.

Marc Wolfe: You know, when you mentioned this, you know, career changes, a lot of people have difficulty with career changes, especially at a young age, it’s not something you just jump into, the barriers to entry are hard, right? Expensive. You got to pay for training, even if you have your own plane. You know, there’s a lot of things to it. You know, you went from desiring at 14 to 23 and you went and you have no control when they let you go or 9/11 or any of that things that do that. I know you’re back in the, obviously in the airline industry again.

So obviously things change for the better. But what advice do you give to somebody who’s struggling to develop a clear plan or direction and they really are planners and they don’t handle lack of plans really well and they want everything all scoped out and they’re like, I’m going to have kids at this age, or I’m going to do this.

Not saying that that wasn’t you, Jimmy, that you might’ve also had plans, but what kind of advice do you give to those people?

Jimmy Ward: I would say, hold your plan loosely. Okay. Know what you want to do and work towards that. As we discussed before, develop your team, right? Develop your mentors, pull from people who are in the same field, in the same situations, learn from them, and move forward with that plan, you know, pray about it, seek the Lord on that and go for it, but hold those things loosely, right? Our jobs don’t define us, you know, sometimes, oh, Jimmy, he’s the pilot.

I am, but I’m a family man, you know, I’m all these other things. My job doesn’t define me, but yes, we all have to have jobs. So I would say stick to the plan, right? And be flexible to pivot because sometimes when you’re working on that plan, the ultimate end game might pivot. You might get a calling to do something else along those lines. So be wise, use your resources as we’ve discussed, but hold the plan loosely. It’s not the end all be all.

Marc Wolfe: Hey there. It’s time for a quick break. While we’re diving into how to live, learn and lead better, I wanted to let you in on something I’m really excited about. If you’ve ever found yourself stuck in the yeah, but cycle, those moments where excuses get in your way of your potential. My new book, Yeah, But Cut Through the Noise to Live, Learn and Lead Better is for you. The book is packed with practical strategies, real stories, and actionable advice to help you stop making excuses and start making progress. Whether you’re a leader, a learner, or just someone looking to cut through the noise, Yeah, But has something for you. And here’s the best part, for a limited time you can grab a chapter for free.

Just head over to my website at www.marcawolfe.com/book to get started. Readers have already said that the perspective and stories guided them to get unstuck and move forward. All right, let’s get back to the show and dive into more ways to break through those yeah, but moments.

Marc Wolfe: Another thing that I think comes up a lot with people especially men or type As or there’s certain behavioral traits for people. And that’s why I give people assessments. It’s kind of like supports a lot of times what they’re already doing. It gives you data behind it.

But it’s like when somebody so committed, you’re like, you have to do training, you have to have so many landings every 90 days. There’s certain requirements. CPAs have to go and get certain new classes. They have to learn. So, you know, there’s a lot of professions that require a lot of detail and require a lot of additional information and also you can’t really schedule.

So what do you talk about people when they’re trying to plan a career? Let’s say they want to become a pilot or something else. And they’re just like, okay, how do you balance between having a family, having a career, providing for your young family, how do you balance that?

Jimmy Ward: Well, again, it’s important to know who you are, right? Who are you? Does your work define you? Does the Lord define you? Does your family define you? What is your goal in life? And for me personally, it is to be the best child of God that I can be, right? And what does that look like?

Well, I’ll tell you, it’s something that’s developed over time. If you keep it your top priority, you will prioritize things and everything else will naturally fall into place. I’m not saying life is going to be perfect and rainbows and lollipops because, as I told you, for me, it was not. And for many people, it’s not, you know, the plan is almost never a 100% perfect as you line it out, you know from beginning to end, so knowing who you are is the first step, and what your priorities are, right. And again, along the way, you may have that feeling of, I really think that I’m supposed to be doing something else, and one example for us was, in our early 20s, we were part of a group, and I’ll just say that, and it was a great group of people, that we developed fantastic friendships with.

It was great. It just felt wonderful, but something was missing, right? We weren’t necessarily growing. We were just in a place of comfort if you will. But when you’re being called to grow and develop and do something else, and I think the worst thing you can do is not embrace that. I mean, sure there’s a period of just starting. And we had a lot of yeah, buts, yeah, but we’re comfortable, you know? Yeah, but this feels great. Yeah, but how can this be bad? But it wasn’t bad, it was just you’re not growing and developing, and maturing, and reaching your full potential. That’s great for vacation, but for life, we’re being called to do more than that. So when we make the decision, for the comfort and the ease, we don’t, we’re limited, right? We’re limiting ourselves and I think that can easily seep in the family line, relationships, work, cause you’re in a mindset of just no worries, it’s all good, right. Let’s not be people like that. Let’s be people that want the challenge, that strive for greatness, that want to be everything that we were created to be. And this always pays off. It’s not always easy, but it always pays off.

Marc Wolfe: Yeah, it’s uh, conviction over convenience, right, Jimmy? One of the other yeah, buts that you mentioned was what will other people say or think? So tell me about some things that you’re like, had to overcome that you were concerned that people were going to think, but then you did work through them, and you’re like, I believe that’s not a concern anymore.

Jimmy Ward: Right, so let’s go back to this previous example, leaving this group of comfort and just wonderful friendship, which is always great. But in order to grow, you have to be challenged, right, and you have to be set apart from your comfort zone, and it’s gonna hurt a little bit, but in the end, it’s your life and you have a decision to make, everyday we have decisions to make.

Marc Wolfe: There’s a lot of people out there, Jimmy, that, aren’t where you are today, right? This didn’t happen overnight, right? And you credit a lot of this to your upbringing and just your family fed into you and spent that, but unfortunately for a lot of different reasons, that’s not the case for a lot of people, they don’t know what their career is at 14, right?

And they don’t have a family support system. How do you create that daily habit or practice or what gets you over the hump when you didn’t have something that was there to go and be able to reinforce it? What do you do to be able to help make that happen?

Jimmy Ward: For me, I draw on the Lord when I don’t know what to do. I ask him and ask for direction and I’m in a constant relationship with him, right? To be in a relationship, just like our friendship, right?

I’m going You have to talk and express feelings and express thoughts, but you also have to listen. It’s a two-way street, you can’t have a relationship without those two things. You have to be a good listener and a good communicator. And, yes, we went through some very difficult times where we didn’t know, right? Because my plan was derailed. It was just a huge benefit and a blessing and that I knew I wanted to do at at 14, but that was gone in 23, 27. So, knowing that that was my passion and that was what I was called to do, is be a pilot, and I just had no doubt in my mind. Everybody has a passion to do something. You may not have discovered it yet, but again, but by being in a relationship with people, having deep, meaningful conversations, you’re going to find what that passion is.

The Lord didn’t create us to go through life alone. He created us to be around other people. So surround yourself with people that can build you up and in your faith life and your family and your work, or whatever situation you find yourself in.

Marc Wolfe: Until you actually get to live it out, it still seems like a mystery, right? So anyone that doesn’t yet understand what a career could feel like they love, right? So let’s just expand it even beyond faith, right? It’s like if you don’t know what it’s like and you see other people, you sometimes excuse it out to say, well, that’s just them, right?

It’s because of their gender or because of where they grew up or it’s because of their family . That all may be true. The thing is, is that not one way is for people to find a career, right? There’s not just one way for them to find a spouse and be able to stay married. It’s a culmination of a lot of different things.

But one of the things I talk about a lot is the yeah, buts, which is like, we can excuse our way, just like you could have and been like, well, I guess my career’s over, I guess it just was done. And instead you persevere. That’s the thing I want to make sure people understand is that there’s a lot of reasons we can give or yeah, buts to go and say why things don’t happen, why they don’t happen for you, what could change, why it doesn’t change.

And maybe if we turn it and we change the perspective, it’s going to be more of, well, what happens if it’s possible? What happens if I cared less about what people thought and more about what I think about myself? What happens if I go and I don’t have a plan, but I have part of a plan. And what happens if I go until I fail?

And then how much further did I get because I at least started it, right? So each kind of conversation we have with ourself is so important for people to understand. It’s like, Oh, maybe I’m just looking at it upside down. Maybe if I just changed the way I looked at it.

Jimmy Ward: And you know what? , Along this process, there’s going to be failures, right? And those aren’t bad, right? They hurt at the moment. My plan failed. But it was for a very good reason, right? You know, through those three years of not having a job, the humility piece was allowed to grow inside of me.

And right up that to that two, two and a half year mark, my prayers were like Lord, I don’t care , you’ve allowed me to do everything that I wanted you to do, that’s fine. If you just want to pull me out, that’s fine. Just show me where you want me to be. And once I had that heart change and realization of it, humility come my life, I think the Lord was like, see? That’s exactly what I wanted for you. And it was literally weeks after that where I was able to get another flying job and move back into the path that he had for me. So having the right perspective, holding your plans loosely, pulling in from advisors and people full of wisdom will take you a long way.

The worst thing we could do is just be hermits and not go out in world.

Marc Wolfe: Well, Jimmy, thank you for taking the time. Was there any questions or any closing comments that you have?

Jimmy Ward: I don’t just, uh, very happy for you on this book. I’m excited to see it all come together and can’t wait to read it.

Marc Wolfe: I appreciate it. And, and in the show notes, we’ll have ways for people to reach out to you if they have other questions because you just, that’s the thing about these conversations, Jimmy, you never know. How people are gonna be like, I can’t believe he’s telling my story, right? Like, this is what I’ve lived through, even though I’m not a pilot, or, and that’s why I wrote Yeah, But, it’s like, why do I have a right to write this?

I don’t, but I’ve been called to because even not, even though I’m not an author, I look at this and say, I have a story. And then sometimes there’s other people that that’s exactly what they needed to hear, because it’s bigger than you or I, Jimmy, right? It’s, it’s who we are. It’s because of who we were made and why we were sent. So thank you.

Jimmy Ward: That’s why there’s millions and billions of us here, right, to glean from, not just a few of us.

Marc Wolfe: That’s true. Jimmy, thanks so much for your time. And I appreciate your answers and insight.

Jimmy Ward: Thank you, Marc.

Marc Wolfe: Thank you for listening to The Yeah, But Podcast. If today’s episode provided valuable perspective on how to overcome the excuses that can hold you back, let us know in the comments. Remember, it’s not about the yeah, but it’s about finding ways to live, learn, and lead better every day. If you enjoyed this episode, be sure to subscribe, leave a review and share it with someone who could use a little kick to get past their yeah, buts, and don’t forget to follow us on Spotify or Apple Podcasts, and for even more tips, connect with me at marcawolfe.com/podcast or on LinkedIn. Until next time, keep challenging those excuses and keep moving forward.

We Listen: Please leave us your review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or YouTube Podcasts.

From NBA players to Olympic medalists, even the best of the best encounter their own ‘Yeah, Buts.’ Dr. Ruth Gotian reveals how these high achievers face challenges strikingly similar to our own. What’s their secret to overcoming doubts, turning setbacks into stepping stones, and maintaining a balance between relentless ambition and staying true to themselves?

About Dr. Ruth Gotian

Dr. Ruth Gotian’s extensive career has focused on optimizing success through mentorship and leadership development. She is the Chief Learning Officer, Associate Professor of Education in Anesthesiology, and former Assistant Dean of Mentoring and Executive Director of the Mentoring Academy at Weill Cornell Medicine. Hailed as an expert by Nature and Columbia University, she researches high achievers like Nobel laureates and CEOs to extract practices for peak performance. She is a contributor to Forbes, Psychology Today, and host of the “Optimizing Success” show and podcast, as well as the winner of the Thinkers50 Distinguished Achievement “Radar” Award, ranking her the #1 emerging management thinker in the world. Her impact spans publications, keynotes, awards, and books encapsulating her insights. Her latest book, Financial Times Guide to Mentoring, enables senior and aspiring executives to both give the support they need as a mentor and how to seek mentoring for themselves.

Dr. Ruth Gotian’s links

• Her latest book on mentoring

• LinkedIn

• Website

Marc’s links

• Website
• Get a free chapter of ‘Yeah, But’
• Interested in being on the podcast?

Follow Marc A. Wolfe on social media for more:

• LinkedIn
• X

Transcript

Dr. Ruth Gotian: And you know what, it’s good enough for an Olympic champion and a Fortune 500 CEO and a Nobel prize winner, well, it’s good enough for me. And I always make sure to surround myself with a team of mentors.

Marc Wolfe: Welcome to the Yeah, But podcast where leaders tune in when they want to be unstuck and unstoppable. I’m Marc Wolfe, president of Marc A.Wolfe Enterprises and author of Yeah, But …Cut Through the Noise to Live, Learn and Lead Better. In each episode, I interview relatable people who share their Yeah, Buts, along with their doubts, fears and alibis, and then share how to overcome them to unlock true potential.

Whether it’s personal growth, leadership challenges, or simply living with more intention. The Yeah, But Podcast is all about turning those excuses into actions. So if you’re ready to stop being held back and start moving forward, you’re in the right place. Let’s get started.

I’m excited to have Dr. Ruth Gotian on the podcast today, and one of the things that I want to kick off the podcast with, is what do you wish people knew about you sooner?

Dr. Ruth Gotian: So back in the day, elementary school is when I first became an athlete. When I really started there was no girls team for soccer, which is what I played. I had to negotiate my way onto the boys team. That negotiation, when I was 10 years old, lay the groundwork for everything else, because that’s when I realized that when I was originally told, no, it just means not yet.

Marc Wolfe: That is an amazing way to let people know what you’re about. I’d love to kind of introduce you before I read your bio. How did we meet and why are we even having a conversation at all all those years ago?

Dr. Ruth Gotian: I actually remember how we met.

Marc Wolfe: Okay.

Dr. Ruth Gotian: Um, so before we’re both executive coaches and before coaching. com, there was something called WBECS and, um, you were moderating, I think, or facilitating a room and Ayse Birsel, um, who wrote the incredible books on design, the life you love design, the long life you love. She was facilitating a session on it and, uh, Ayse and I are both part of 100 Coaches, the Marshall Goldsmith 100 Coaches, and she invited me to attend the workshop. And you said something where you made me realize so I actually had to say who our heroes are and why and I talked about my grandmother, who’s very different from me a foot shorter. And when you look back at it, my grandmother was one of 13 women and 300 men to go to Columbia Pharmacy School. She had to really break barriers in order to get that.

Marc Wolfe: And it’s amazing how in such a short time with an interesting conversation can literally link somebody and especially when they can understand you quickly, which I know that you’ve done over your career.

So let me read a little about you. So Dr. Ruth Gotian’s extensive career has focused on optimizing success through mentorship and leadership development. She is the chief learning officer, associate professor of education and anesthesiology, and former Assistant Dean of Mentoring and Executive Director of the Mentoring Academy at Cornell Medicine.

Hailed as an expert by Nature and Columbia University, she researches high achievers like Nobel laureates and CEOs to extract practices for peak performance. She is a contributor to Forbes, Psychology Today, and the host of Optimizing Success show and podcast as well as winner of the Thinker’s 50 Distinguished Achievement Radar Award, ranking her in the number one emerging management thinker in the world.

Her impact spans publications, keynotes, awards, and books, encapsulating her insight. Her latest book, Financial Times Guide to Mentoring, enables senior and aspiring executives to get both support they need to mentor and how to seek mentoring for themselves. So you do sleep every once in a while, right?

Dr. Ruth Gotian: I sleep a lot. I need my sleep. I am not functional without my sleep.

Marc Wolfe: So, let’s talk about your yeah buts. I think your number one, yeah, but was I need help. So tell us more about that.

Dr. Ruth Gotian: One of the, yeah, buts was I don’t do downtime very well. And it came to a point, uh, about six months ago and within one or two week time span, a Nobel prize winner, an Olympic bronze medalist, And an NBA champion all told me you need to stop.

You need to go away for a few days. You need to not open your laptop. And I was like, whoa, because these people understand the hustle and grind better than anyone. And they were the ones saying, It’s getting too much. It’s you need to just stop and reset.

That was a, a wake up moment for me for sure.

Marc Wolfe: To hear that from people who are at that level, how did it make you feel about insight from other people just like you as a coach provide insight and perspective to others?

Dr. Ruth Gotian: Yeah, well, it’s because of that, that I listen and I listen extremely well.

And if one person says that, yeah, okay, when two people start telling it to you. Yeah. Start to listen. By the third one, I was like, okay. It was a third one within a very short period of time.

Marc Wolfe: So what does that teach you about yourself?

Dr. Ruth Gotian: That I need to learn about the power of the pause. Since then, what I started doing is one day on the weekends. I do not open my laptop.

Marc Wolfe: So what kind of beliefs did you have about your own capacity and desire to achieve that you might have had to see at a different perspective?

Dr. Ruth Gotian: I just saw that there’s more to do, there’s more to do, there’s more to do, I’ll never finish, I’ll never finish, there’s more to do, there’s another idea, there’s always more that you can do. And there is always more that you can do. It just doesn’t all have to be done this week.

Marc Wolfe: The part that always amazes me, how impressed you still are, even though you’ve been around so many different people that have accomplished so much, you’re still humble enough and still impressed to be around such great thinkers.

I think you can sense that it’s part of your upbringing, right? Tell us more just about how you keep this balance between the success that you’ve generated or happened and just who you are

Dr. Ruth Gotian: Well, I think the success is a journey. Um, I reached one goal. Now I’m on to the next one, which is why I wrote the Financial Times, Guide to Mentoring. I wrote that book and I have a proposal for the next book already with my literary agents. So there’s always more, to do.

One of it I do get to hang out with incredible people, right? The NBA champions, the Olympians, Nobel Prize winners, and they are extremely grounded in who they are. So if, if I’m going to be star-struck, we’re not going to have the meaningful conversation.

And at the end of the day, they’re just regular people. Same fears. Same concerns, same excitements as everybody else, and we each have our job to do because we each have our superpower. We each have our skill.

As the social scientist who’s able to communicate with these people and extracting their incredible stories and teaching those lessons to other people, one of those things that I realized was that all these people with their Nobel prizes, with their championships, with their Olympic medals. They still surrounded themselves with a team of mentors, people who could pick them up and who could guide them.

And you know what? Good enough for it. Olympic champion and a Fortune 500 CEO and a Nobel prize winner. Well, it’s good enough for me. And I always make sure to surround myself with a team of mentors.

Marc Wolfe: It’s interesting that you wrote about something that literally could change a career or literally a life, they would be a different person thanks to being mentored or being a mentor.

Dr. Ruth Gotian: Absolutely. And there’s a ton of research on this that shows that 9 out of 10 people who are mentored do better in their jobs.

They get promoted more often. They’re happier in their work. They get bigger salary increases. They have lower burnout. So the research on this is crystal clear. But I just had an article that I wrote with my co author and an officer from the Army,

and the premise People are moving around a lot. Now people are not staying in the same job. So if people think that their mentor is going to be their boss, their leader, but that boss is going to be gone, then who are you going to have? But that mentor can stay with you throughout your career. And that mentor might be more important than your leader. And I think that is so critical. And we haven’t as individuals and as organizations paid as much attention as we should have to mentorship.

And we should, because it makes the employees better and it helps the organization as well because it helps the organization retain these employees. And, you know, employees are expensive to recruit and onboard. So if you can keep these best people through mentorship, why aren’t we doing a better job at it?

And that was the premise. That’s why Andy Lopata and I wrote that book, Financial Times Guide to Mentoring.

Marc Wolfe: That’s amazing. And it’s great that you’re taking the time to do something that is overlooked, but actually it’s not as hard as people think.

You know, one of the yeah, buts you mentioned was, yeah, but I don’t feel successful. Tell us more about specific situations where you didn’t feel successful and what triggered even saying this.

Dr. Ruth Gotian: Well, one of the things I had this dream since I was in my 20s, that I was going to get my doctorate because there were people around me who I respected, that’s what they had and I thought that’s what you’re supposed to do. And life happened. You know, I got my master’s, I got married, I had kids, I was working. It was not the right time. And I was like, I really don’t want to do this. I really don’t want to write papers. And at the age of 43, I went back to school while working full time, and I got my doctorate, and I wrote a lot of papers, and it wasn’t easy, but I did it.

And that’s when things started to change, because that’s when I realized when you get your doctorate, you start creating new knowledge. And then the question is, so now what are you going to do with all this new knowledge you’ve created? And that’s when I realized, I am now in control of my future. What I do with it or not, it’s my decision, so I decided I was going to run with it, and that was the last book, The Success Factor, and obviously now this one, but success was always, I thought, what other people do, right?

I mean, I’m in New York City, right? We have the academic types by Columbia. We have all the corporate types in midtown. We have all the Broadway people. That’s everyone else, and I kept feeling like an outsider looking in. I was like, I want to be part of that. I couldn’t figure out how to do it and then I figured out I didn’t have to figure out how to be a corporate executive.

I had to figure out what the next step was. And once I figured out what the next step was, I had to do that and then the next step and the next step and the next step and the next step.

Marc Wolfe: Hey there, it’s time for a quick break. While we’re diving into how to live, learn, and lead better, I wanted to let you in on something I’m really excited about. If you’ve ever found yourself stuck in the yeah, but cycle, those moments where excuses get in your way of your potential, my new book, Yeah, But… Cut through the Noise to Live, Learn, and Lead Better is for you.

The book is packed with practical strategies, real stories, and actionable advice to help you stop making excuses and start making progress. Whether you’re a leader, a learner, or just someone looking to cut through the noise, Yeah, But has something for you. And here’s the best part. For a limited time, you can grab a chapter for free.

Just head over to my website at www.marcawolfe.com. / book to get started. Readers have already said that the perspective and stories guided them to get unstuck and move forward. All right, let’s get back to the show and dive into more ways to break through those yeah, but moments.

Well, because you said it’s a journey, and if it’s going to be about knowledge, when do you stop learning? And I like to remind my clients, so it’s like, take your age. And cut it in half, what do you wish you knew at that age, right?

So what would you say to your former self about that unsuccessful feeling and how you overcame it?

Dr. Ruth Gotian: I think the, that feeling and that always being the outside looking in was I never asked people, well, how did you get there and what did you do and how did you know that was right for you?

And now all I do is ask questions. How’d you do that? How’d you know to do that? What did you try before? What worked? What didn’t work?

Marc Wolfe: But society doesn’t want you to ask questions. They tell you you’re supposed to have the answers and AI and all these other ways. But look what we learn through curiosity, perspective, we learn about ourselves, we learn about others.

Dr. Ruth Gotian: The people who are telling you or making you believe that you’re supposed to know all the answers, don’t have any of the answers themselves and it becomes a game of smoke and mirrors and they’re trying to hide their insecurities by pushing them on to you.

Marc Wolfe: And that’s the beauty of being consistent with who you are, having the ability to admit you’re willing to learn and there’s things to be learned and that’s the beauty. And even in, Yeah, But we talk about how, if you’re moving ahead, right, version one is better than version none to break and fall, fail forward to go and continue to try things..

Dr. Ruth Gotian: But the good thing about working with Olympians is that they understand that the failure, it’s not a failure, it’s a learning opportunity.

If you think about the Olympics, go to any, I don’t care what sport you’re, you’re watching. You will always see the same thing. They finished doing their competition, whatever they’re doing. And you will see the athlete runs to their coach. It’s not just a high five, a hug, good job. Because there’s always an opportunity to improve and these athletes, they’re looking for ways to shave fractions of seconds off their time. And the only way they can do that is by getting that feedback.

Marc Wolfe: You know, one of the other things you mentioned, , was your, Yeah, But I don’t know where to start. So what was going through your mind during that period of not knowing where to start?

Dr. Ruth Gotian: Um, So one of the things was when I made that decision to go back to school, first of all, making that decision, I said, I need to do something.

What’s my concentration going to be in? Which schools am I going to apply to? Do I need to take a standardized test again? You know, so many questions.

And that’s when I realized I don’t need to have the answer to all the questions. I just need to make a list of the questions. It has to be a running list. Did I start? Just start. And it was really quite fascinating because I eventually came to the realization that I wanted to go to Columbia Teachers College for many reasons.

Um, and I actually wrote a letter to the president of the university.

I said, look, I want to get my doctorate. I work full time. I have a family. This, you know, doing this in six years is really just not, not working for me, um, because I’m working all day and I’m going to go to school.

Do you have some sort of executive program? I didn’t see anything on the website. She referred my letter to, uh, Dr. Tom Rock, who at that time was the head of admissions. He invited me in for a meeting

I went in there and I think that meeting changed my life because I said to him, I think I want to do my major, my concentration in X. And he said, well, tell me about yourself. And I start telling him all the things that I’m doing and I want to do. And he said, I don’t think that’s what you need. I think you need adult learning and leadership.

And that led me down the rabbit hole of figuring out what that was and I was like, of course, this is exactly what I need to do. And I started reading everything I could about it, realizing it was tailor-made for me and then realizing that all of the big thought leaders and theorists in this area were either trained or taught at Columbia, at teacher’s college. And that’s when I said, I have to get in. I have to get in, do what you need to do.

Marc Wolfe: What made you think that going to the president, changing this, what was in your mind at that time?

Dr. Ruth Gotian: Look, they take five people and they didn’t have exactly what I was looking for, but it’s that whole thinking of, well, maybe it can be done.

What I also did, and this was at the recommendation of Dr. Tom Rock, who I had that incredible meeting with, he said, take classes as an unaffiliated student for a year.

You pay tuition. If you get accepted, you can always transfer that in. But now this also proves that you can work at this level. So I started taking those classes. The professors got to know me. And then I started meeting with professors one on one. I said, I’m applying. This is what I want to do. But I was, I didn’t know anyone who was going back to school and working full time and wanting to do what I did. And I wasn’t even sure what it is I wanted to do.

I just knew this was going to help me get there. And then it was another conversation in the hallway with a student. And he said, well, what do you want to do next? I was like, I don’t know. My goal right now is to finish this doctorate. That’s the goal. I haven’t figured out what’s next yet. He said, well, what are you a thought leader in?

And I still remember this conversation because I talked about in my book, The Success Factor. I said, what’s a thought leader? I had no idea. I had no idea what a thought leader was. And he said, it’s something you are uniquely qualified to talk about. And that’s when I realized I needed to be uniquely qualified to talk about something in a way no one else was talking about.

And that made me hyper-niche the way I was communicating the articles I was writing. So now, if you Google speaker thought leader on success or on mentoring, my name will come up because I have communicated so much hundreds of articles about it and podcasting webinars and LinkedIn lives and keynotes and all of that because it was that hallway conversation.

And as I said at the beginning, I listen, I don’t have all the answers. But I listen to what comes up

Marc Wolfe: Ruth, you’re exactly who you say you are, right? You’re tenacious and overcomer. Somebody who’s already looked at their yeah, buts and say, okay, that’s just a not now,

it’s not a never. It’s such a pleasure to have people like you on the podcast that show that age is not a barrier. Background’s not a barrier. We are a barrier to ourselves. And if we don’t get around coaches and mentors and other people who can help guide us, we literally are shortchanging our capabilities and capacity to be better than we are currently.

And so grateful for that. Anything you want to close with as we kind of wrap this up?

Dr. Ruth Gotian: Well, I’m really excited, um, to be here again, I think four years or so after we had that initial conversation. I’m really excited about this mentoring book that’s coming out Financial Times Guide to Mentoring because it was the book.

I was looking for but couldn’t find so I decided to write it. Um, and for those who want to check it out, download a free chapter, get the scorecard to see if their mentoring relationship is as good as it could be. All of that is available on the book’s website, which is mentoring- guide. com.

Marc Wolfe: And we’re going to have all your contact information and things in the show notes.

So people can be able to reach out to you, ask you questions. Because I know you’re as busy as you are. You’re very accessible. You do want to continue to help people. Ruth, thank you. Dr. Ruth Gotian and her new book. Very excited. And it won’t be her last, if I’m even guessing.

Dr. Ruth Gotian: That’s right.

Marc Wolfe: Thanks for being here.

Dr. Ruth Gotian: Thanks for having me.

Marc Wolfe: Thank you for listening to the Yeah, But Podcast. If today’s episode provided valuable perspective on how to overcome the excuses that can hold you back, let us know in the comments. Remember, it’s not about the yeah buts, it’s about finding ways to live, learn, and lead better every day. If you enjoyed this episode, be sure to subscribe, leave a review, and share it with someone who could use a little kick to get past their own yeah buts.

And don’t forget to follow us on Spotify and Apple Podcasts. And for even more tips, connect with me at marcawolfe. com/podcast. Until next time, keep challenging those excuses and keep moving forward.

Please leave us a review on Apple Podcasts & Spotify if you enjoyed this episode!