[00:00:00] LIZZEY MCFARLIN: My parents hate this, but I would always take my books to sporting games, and Dad was like, "Look at the baseball game happening," and I'm like reading Harry Potter Six and couldn't be bothered with the baseball game.

ANNE BOGEL: Hey readers, I'm Anne Bogel, and this is What Should I Read Next?. Welcome to the show that's dedicated to answering the question that plagues every reader, what should I read next? We don't get bossy on this show. What we will do here is give you the information you need to choose your next read. Every week we'll talk all things books and reading, and do a little literary matchmaking with one guest.

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Readers, we regularly hear from listeners seeking tips and advice on how to read the classics. If you've ever felt intimidated by old books or haven't been sure you've been reading them correctly, it's not just you. Earlier this season, New Yorker Lizzey McFarlin sent us her guest submission, and in it, asked for help to approach the classics in a different way.

She'd been trying to read them the same way she'd approach any other book: late at night, hoping to sink in and quickly turn the pages. But that wasn't working. She was too often growing so bored she would abandon them. She knew what she was doing wasn't working, but she wasn't sure what to do instead, and she came to us seeking some fresh ideas.

[00:02:50] Lizzey isn't reading the classics alone. She's in a local book club with five women who pick a new-to-them classic quarterly, and they plan a themed excursion related to the book. Today, Lizzey shares about some of the classic book and excursion pairings they've enjoyed so far and is hoping I can share possibilities for what they might read and where they might visit to go along with it in the future.

Whether you're interested in picking up a challenging book or you're contemplating making a lifelong dream come true, I hope you'll find this conversation inspiring and empowering, and just a lot of fun. Let's get to it.

Lizzey, welcome to the show.

LIZZEY: Thank you so much for having me. I cannot be more excited.

ANNE: Oh my gosh. Well, the pleasure is ours. Thank you so much for sending in your submission. Readers, that's at whatshouldireadnextpodcast.com/guest. I was really excited to see it because, readers, as you will hear, we receive multiple queries a week from readers saying, "Help me," in a very similar way that showed up in your submission, Lizzey. So thanks for that.

[00:03:53] LIZZEY: So happy to help. Okay. So excited to chat classics today.

ANNE: Well, I'd love to begin by giving the readers a glimpse of who you are. Would you tell us a little about yourself?

LIZZEY: I am 29 years old. I live in New York City with my husband and baby, Grant and Lucy. Lucy is seven months old, and is just a ball of perfection. She was born in December, so she's just like... She couldn't be cuter. I rave about her daily, as one should with their child.

I am originally from Texas, so I do have that Southern sensibility, I guess you would say. But I dreamed of living in New York my whole life, and two years ago me and my husband moved here just because we wanted to try it out, and it has been beyond our wildest hopes and dreams. We love it so, so much.

By day, I work in corporate recruiting. I work at a consulting company. But I spend a lot of time writing. I have a Substack I use. I do a lot of film photography, and I just love eating, drinking, cooking, and I spend a lot of time exploring my wonderful city with my friends. People are always in town visiting, and so spend a lot of time hosting as well, and it's just so fun.

[00:05:07] ANNE: Okay, that sounds incredible. I want to hear more about the texture of your life. I believe that is going to come up in today's episode.

LIZZEY: Mm-hmm.

ANNE: Tell us about your reading life. I'm leaving that broad on purpose.

LIZZEY: I have always said, like, if someone's like, "Tell me about yourself," probably the second thing to come up would be that I'm a reader, which just feels very defining of me as a person. I am an only child, so I grew up and reading was my companion. You know, I was just always reading. Such a gift is that my parents are huge readers as well.

On vacations we would always just sit and read, and that was... That's just a huge part of our life and always has been. My parents hate this, but I would always take my books to sporting games and Dad was like, "Look at the baseball game happening," and I'm reading Harry Potter Six and couldn't be bothered with the baseball game.

[00:06:05] But I really became an extrovert, like I became very extroverted late high school and early college, and so I stopped reading as much. And then mid-college I rediscovered my former love, and now I've been able to continue to be super social but reading is just such an important part of my life. And I feel like I combine the social-ness of myself and my reading life by always having book clubs.

I just love, love, love my book clubs. I had a really great one in Texas, and now my one in New York is just weird. It's like a weird format, but it's such a delight. I talk about it all the time. And it's a group of five girls, and we read classics. So we have a classics book club. So while I still do a lot of reading outside of the classics on my own, the classics and my book club are kind of anchors for my reading life throughout the year.

ANNE: We hear from a lot of readers who want to join or start a book club in their real life. You haven't been in New York City very long. Is your book club local? I'm so curious about how you connected so quickly.

[00:07:03] LIZZEY: I'm just deeply lucky to have made really good friends from the start of life here. So my book club is Lucy, Hannah, Courtney, and Catherine. It was actually Hannah's idea. I knew them all separately, and Hannah and I were talking one day, and she was also new to the city, and she was like, "I really want to have a book club, but I really want it to be classics adjacent." Because her and I both read voraciously on our own. We don't need a book club to help us do that.

She was like, "I really want to work on my classics reading, and I think it'd be fun to do it in a group." So it started as me and Hannah, and then Courtney joined, who was one of my friends, and then Catherine joined, and then Lucy joined. So we just found each other along the way, people who had genuine interest in reading the classics or were already doing it. And we just invited them to come along. But we purposely try to keep it pretty small. It's not like an open book club. Because of the way we format it, it would just be hard if we had 20 people, you know?

ANNE: Yeah. Yeah, I hear that.

[00:08:03] LIZZEY: One of my favorite elements... I just love to brand my book club. I just love to make it a big part of my personality. I think we all do, but to me it's very, very special. So we recently decided that we're going to have a name, and we're going to be called the Blue Stockings, which from my understanding, there could be, you know, elements that are off about this. But it's like an 18th-century feminist movement that started as literary discussion groups and salons, and it was just basically a lot of women being like, "We like to talk about things, like scholarly, educational things, not just hosting and fashion and things."

To my understanding, that is the origin of the Blue Stockings movement. And me and a couple other people in my book club were reading the Emma M. Lion series, The Unselected Journals of Emma M. Lion, and several times in that series they reference Blue Stockings. And so we were like, "Wait, this is the perfect name for our group. We should go by the Blue Stockings." So we decided to call ourselves the Blue Stockings.

[00:09:09] We bought matching socks that we all wear, and so they're blue, and they have these little frills on the side. And then this is a secret from my book club, but I'm already dreaming about the Christmas gift I'll buy everybody that involves a blue stocking in a way. So I won't say any more because I assume they will listen to this episode, but it's fun having a kind of themed... an icon for your group that you can reference.

ANNE: Okay, I'm so intrigued by these Christmas gifts. All right. But no gifting spoilers here. So in your submission, you told us something else interesting about your book club, because you take it off the page as well. Tell us more.

LIZZEY: Uh, yes. Because we're reading the classics, we don't meet monthly. That would be way too much, at least in our individual seasons of life. We're all late 20s, early 30s, and so we meet quarterly or seasonally. So we have a summer, fall, winter, and spring classic. And our very first book was Mansfield Park, in spring of last year.

[00:10:15] ANNE: That's an unconventional choice for where to start with Jane Austen. I love it.

LIZZEY: It's because I read a Jane Austen a year, and I'd only... This was my fifth Jane Austen. So this was one of the ones I hadn't read. None of the others had read it as well. So we started with Mansfield Park, and we went to a British tearoom. And we were like, "Oh, wait, this is a perfect setting. We're drinking tea. We're eating scones. We're talking about the book." Like, it just felt so perfect. So we picked our summer book as East of Eden. It felt very grand but also dry California desert. I don't know, it just said summer to us.

And then Hannah was assigned to pick our destination for that trip or for that excursion, and she was like, "Oh, John Steinbeck, when he used to come to the city, would always stay in this hotel. He signed the wall in the lobby. So we should do our next book club at this hotel so we can live the John Steinbeck life."

[00:11:11] And then I think we just had so much fun picking the book but also picking the excursion, and it's kind of flipped a little bit. Sometimes, like this summer, we knew we wanted to go on an upstate trip and do an overnight as our book club. And so we were like, "Okay, how could we find a book that pairs with what we already want to do?" And so that's kind of the formatting we've fallen into. I also really like that it's seasonal because New York is such a... Like, every season is wildly different, and all have their individual magic. And so I think when we pick pairings, we're also being like, "What do we want to do in the fall of this year, and what book really aligns with that experience?"

ANNE: So what did you pick for upstate?

LIZZEY: Okay, it's a bit of a stretch. Stay with me.

ANNE: Well, I love how you made Jane Austen work in New York City, so...

LIZZEY: Absolutely. It started with... I think it was also Hannah. She was like, "Guys, we should go to Italy, and we should read A Room with a View." And I was like, "That feels a little bold, but what about if we go to the Catskills?" And so we were like, "Okay-

ANNE: You just need a view.

[00:12:18] LIZZEY: We just need a view. Any view.

ANNE: Field of flowers.

LIZZEY: Exactly. And so we were like, "Okay, okay. We're not going to go overseas, but we'll stay in New York. We'll go upstate. That sounds fun. What book would pair well with it?" I think we just were like, "Who is a New York author?" And so that's how we landed on Fitzgerald. We picked Tender Is the Night. We were like, "We're going to go upstate."

And the reason we did that is because I think it ends on Long Island, or... I'm not positive if it ends there, but he's from Long Island or is from New York in general. And so we knew we wanted to read a book by him because he felt like he captured the New York summer essence.

ANNE: Lizzey, I'm so curious. What was the motivation for the Classics Book Club? Was this a recent love of yours and the book club instigator's idea? Was this a gap you saw? How did that focus come to be?

[00:13:18] LIZZEY: I really love doing hard things on a micro scale because I think it prepares me to be the kind of person who can do hard things on a macro level and in the actually important areas of life, like the larger scale things. And so I want to be a runner so that I can have endurance to overcome hard things, you know?

And I think it's the same with reading. A lot of reading, I love it, it's so effortless for me, but I will, in stressful seasons of my life or when I'm feeling overwhelmed, I can just go to easy books that I don't remember at the end of the day, I don't remember anything that happened. You know, they're pleasant, but they don't stick with me. And I really wanted to be proud of my reading life. I always am. I love to read. I love all the different types of books I read. But I wanted to feel the sense of accomplishment in my reading life as well.

[00:14:17] And so I think that was the reason for the classics, because you have to approach them just so... At least for me, I have to approach them so differently than I do a normal book or a non-classic novel. I have to read them slower. I have to be a lot more focused. I can't just go in and out of them and be chatting with someone or texting on the side. I really have to devote my whole attention to it. And I find that when I do that, I get so much out of it. Like, they really stick out to me in my mind, and they're these pillars of my reading life. Whereas last year I think I read 75 books, and I remember 10 of them or 15 of them super well, and the classics are in that group, because of how I have to approach them.

So I think that's why we wanted to challenge ourselves a little bit in our reading life and do it in a social setting, so... because I think the discussion amongst friends really helps us remember them as well and have them stand out to us.

[00:15:18] ANNE: Okay. I'm curious to hear how your reading practices have changed or evolved since this book club began.

LIZZEY: I would also throw in "since having a baby", because my book club has existed... It started once I was already pregnant, and then has extended through the first seven months of my daughter's life. So I think my reading has slowed down a lot, but I've also realized there's just a lot more going on in my life in the last year, year and a half, and I don't have as much time or attention to devote to reading. And so the time I am spending, I've just noticed how much more liable I am to be distracted than I was before.

And so I'm trying to figure out how to acknowledge that I may need to read less in this season, but how can I read more thoughtfully and less distracted? Maybe I don't get to read for an hour at night, maybe I only get to read for 30 minutes, but how can those 30 minutes be really concentrated and focused rather than me trying to do five things at once?

[00:16:31] I also used to listen to a lot of audiobooks, and I don't really do that anymore. If I'm doing something, I'm doing one thing at a time, and I'm trying to be really focused on it. Otherwise, it just doesn't stick with me. I've noticed that in our summer book, which is Tender Is the Night, the language is so beautiful, but it's very dense and a little convoluted at times. And if I'm not fully focused, I can breeze through five pages and have no idea what I just read. So I think the classics have forced me to focus more intently on the words I'm reading and read slower, but in a way that actually sticks with me.

ANNE: Okay, so if you're reading less but want to be thoughtful about it, it seems like reining in the options of books you might be choosing from. Like this is really helping you.

[00:17:26] LIZZEY: Yes. I would totally agree. Right now I have seven library books on my shelf that I'm just not going to get to. I'm living a lie. I need to return six of them and just focus on one book at a time. I'm a person who thinks she can do everything and loves to do five different things at once, and I feel like in this season I'm learning, do one thing at a time, do it really well, and you'll be better for it.

ANNE: Okay. Well, I'm interested in hearing more. I'm definitely interested in hearing more about your classic book and excursion pairings, because your upstate trip sounds amazing. And also in your submission you talked about how you wanted to read the classics differently. But we're also going to talk about the ones that have worked for you and the ones that haven't. What should we do first, Lizzey? Should we talk about your books?

LIZZEY: I think we should talk about my books, yes.

ANNE: You know how this works. You brought me three books you love, one you didn't, and what you've been reading lately. And, you know, I'm not sure exactly what you're looking for, but we are going to figure it out and try to find it for you. How did you choose these books that you brought today?

[00:18:35] LIZZEY: They honestly felt pretty easy to pick because I was keeping it to just the classics I've been reading, not every book I've been reading. And so in my lifetime, I've probably read 15 classic books, you know, so it didn't feel that hard to narrow it down.

I've really noticed a theme between all of them, so I'll say that before I get into my books. I notice I love language. I love just exquisitely crafted sentences. At the end of the sentence, I'll pause and just be like, "Oh, that is so beautiful. I love the way they said that." One of these books specifically made me cry when I was reading it just because I thought it was so gorgeous. But also, I love when the characters feel personal to me, and there's still a little bit of a plot. I don't like beautiful language, no plot.

[00:19:27] So the three books I picked were East of Eden by John Steinbeck, The Picture of Dorian Gray by Oscar Wilde, and A Room with a View by E.M. Forster. E.M. Forster is the one that I just kept reading it and clutching it to my chest after paragraphs and be like, "I can't believe I get to read this. I can't believe this book exists." But I had that experience with all of these different books.

ANNE: I love that for you. Okay, let's take it one by one. Tell me about East of Eden.

LIZZEY: Okay, East of Eden, uh, such a special book. Every member of my book club rated this in their top five books of all time after we read it, which was really special to us. So I think also part of it. I am a Christian, and so the Genesis story is very familiar to me. And so hearing it or reading it rewritten in this really creative way was so compelling to me.

[00:20:22] I think the reason this book ranks so highly for me is the language is beautiful, the structure of it is beautiful, but it's simple. I feel like a lot of classics are, you're glad you're reading them, but sometimes they're a slog to get through. I did not feel that way with East of Eden at all. I was racing through it. And I think it's because it has such a robust plot, and the characters are really compelling, and they're definitely not one-dimensional. They're just very robust, complicated characters. So in some ways it felt like a modern-day murder mystery at times or a massive family saga. So I thought the plot of that book really kept me engaged, and his writing, while stunning, was also very simple. It wasn't too complicated.

[00:21:14] ANNE: Okay. That's really impressive that it made such an impact on all your readers. I got to say, for those who think the classics are dry and dusty and boring, East of Eden, oh my, was not what I expected it to be when I finally picked it up, maybe like 10 years ago. I mean, thanks to comments from readers, this may have predated the podcast age, but I'm really glad I tried it. I mean, do you want to say anything about what is often surprising to modern readers who think like, "Oh, here's an old book about old things," and then they find this?

LIZZEY: I really just think if you read for the love of language and the beautiful way words are assembled on a page and just you hear a description of something and you want to cry or laugh or it just feels so accurate to what the thing is, the classics do that better than anything. There's a reason they're a classic. I think it's stretched my understanding of what books can be, and it's given me a higher bar for my everyday reading life, and I really appreciated that challenge. It's been hard to force myself to do hard things, but I feel like I'm becoming a better reader because of it.

[00:22:29] ANNE: All right. Tell me more about The Picture of Dorian Gray. So bossy.

LIZZEY: No.

ANNE: Tell me more, Lizzey.

LIZZEY: Get into it. The Picture of Dorian Gray was a delight. This was my fall book club last year. And we did a double feature for our book club last year, so we read The Picture of Dorian Gray, and then we read The Legend of Sleepy Hollow by Washington Irving because we wanted to go upstate to Sleepy Hollow, the town, for a day. Which is like, Washington Irving is buried there, and The Legend of Sleepy Hollow is based there. That one was an example where the excursion comes before the book.

We paired it with The Picture of Dorian Gray because it felt a little creepy, and we were going around Halloween, and we just felt like it emulated the fall spooky nature of it. The Picture of Dorian Gray was a delight to all of us. All of us loved it. I feel like my book club is often in alignment on how we feel about books, which is a nice feeling. But it just is so creepy. It's the same sort of beautiful language, really compelling characters. You're just fascinated by... You're so sucked into the story. It didn't feel hard to read. I felt like I was being pulled through it by a really plot-heavy novel, very complicated character. So I wasn't bored for a second with this book.

[00:23:49] I think I like classics that I can see how modern books evolved out of them. Like, there's a lot of echoes of the modern books I'm reading in it. Because in The Picture of Dorian Gray, there's a murder mystery, and he's on the run, and it's just a very complicated man. And I think that was a compelling read for me.

ANNE: Sounds good. I love the sound of that trip. That sounds amazing.

LIZZEY: It was so dreamy. And we got stuck into a Halloween festival while we were up there. It was amazing.

ANNE: I love that for you. All right, Lizzey, tell me more about A Room With a View.

LIZZEY: Okay. A Room With a View is the one that is a little uncommon because this was not a book club pick. My friend Hannah was like, "We should read A Room With a View and go to Italy." And she was joking, but she pitched it to our book club, we were all like, "Okay, ha ha. We can't go to Italy this summer." And we chose a different book.

[00:24:48] But I ended up reading A Room With a View because I was on maternity leave, and I had time, and Hannah was like, "This book will be very, very important to you." And she was right. The main character's name is Lucy, which is my daughter's name, so that was just like a fun little aside that I loved. It almost felt Jane Austen-esque, which I don't know, maybe they're not similar at all, but they felt similar to me. Like, you just love this young woman who is finding her way in the world, and she's learning to explore and see new parts of the world, and then she comes back to stuffy old England and is changed by her travel experiences. I felt like I was Lucy in this novel, and I just love that.

Again, the writing is exquisite. The characters are really personable. Feel like those are always themes for me. But I think I liked that it was witty as well. I love the way E.M. Forster poked fun at this persona of English citizens going abroad to find themselves and discover themselves in Italy. And while he was talking about a very common experience that people had at that time, he also was making fun of the way that they travel, and when they're in Italy, the different idioms they do or the idiosyncrasies they embody while they're traveling. So I just thought it was a really easy book to read. I loved the characters, and also I just liked the sarcasm that was built into the novel as well.

[00:26:15] ANNE: Okay, not a question we ask a lot on What Should I Read Next?, but have you seen The Merchant Ivory adaptation?

LIZZEY: No, tell me more.

ANNE: Well, it's widely argued that this is one of the few adaptations that's better than the book it's based on.

LIZZEY: Whoa.

ANNE: It features a very young Helena Bonham Carter and Daniel Day-Lewis. There's an iconic nude bathing scene. Not sexual at all. Very, very funny. Oh, Maggie Smith is Aunt Charlotte.

LIZZEY: Oh, wow. Okay, I need to watch this. I have heard about this. My friend, once I read A Room with a View, was like, "The movie is amazing. We need to watch it together." So that's up on my list. I'll add it to my end of summer bucket list.

ANNE: I mean, if you're not going to Italy with book club, maybe it would be a fun movie night.

LIZZEY: Which I think is a mistake that we're not, but maybe next year.

ANNE: Yeah, if you're not going yet.

LIZZEY: Yes, exactly.

ANNE: Okay, Lizzey, tell me about a book that was not a good fit for you, and I'd love to hear why.

[00:27:18] LIZZEY: I feel bad saying this, so I'm going to start there. The book that was not for me was The Brothers Karamazov by Fyodor Dostoevsky. I was so excited about this book. Every book club, we pick the book for the next book club. And so in the fall, I was one month away from having my baby, and the girls in the book club were like, "Lizzey, what do you want to do? You get to pick our winter book because you're the one about to have a child, and you kind of get to set the scene." And so I was like, "The Brothers Karamazov is a book I've always wanted to read." I have several friends who are like, "This is my favorite book of all time," so I had very, very high expectations for this book. But for anyone who doesn't know, it's like a 900-page Russian tome, with all these great themes about spirituality and family and good and bad and all this stuff.

[00:28:13] So we decided to read it, and we decided to do as our pairing. This is my favorite pairing yet. We went to the New York City Ballet, and we went to this place called Dante, which is this fabulous bar in New York City, and got vodka martinis and just felt very Russian in our... We all dressed up in formal gowns for this excursion as well. And so it's my favorite excursion we have done yet.

However, the book, all of us were like, "This was really, really hard to get through." I think the reason this wasn't for me was so much my phase of life and not specifically about the book itself, which is why I have some regrets. Like, I had just had a baby. I was trying to read a little bit every day while she's crying in the background and figuring out how to be a person. I think I was missing a lot of the things that make this book great, which are the great meditations on good and evil and spirituality and family and our place in the world.

[00:29:13] I think a lot of those massive chapters or these moments where Dostoevsky is trying to tell us a story and impart meaning to us, I was just missing because I was flying through. And so it's a book I would really like to come back to one day and read differently than I was able to do at this time in my life.

ANNE: Mm-hmm. It'll be there for you when you're ready to pay it a return visit.

LIZZEY: I agree. I think the problem is me, not Dostoevsky, and I apologize to him.

ANNE: You know, okay, so I see many ways in which what I'm about to say is patently false, okay? However, it does seem like the older books are more patient when it comes to the reader not having time for them right now. I feel like I phrased this really weirdly. Here's what I mean. There's books coming out right now that, like... It almost feels like I might miss the cultural moment if I don't read it now. You know?

LIZZEY: Oh, yes.

ANNE: I'm not going to be able to participate in the conversation. But there's never going to be a wrong time to read a book that's been around for a couple hundred years.

[00:30:20] LIZZEY: I agree with that. I think that's a very good way to put that.

ANNE: The theory needs a great deal of refining. But there's a seed there I'm going to tug at later, to mix my metaphors completely.

LIZZEY: No, no, I love that. I agree completely, and I know that it is waiting for me when I am ready for it.

ANNE: Okay. All right. Well, I'm glad you sound philosophical about that. I mean, one of the reasons to read at all is discover what it is we like and why. So maybe in 10 years, you'll be like, "Ugh, I see why this has stuck around, and also this is not to my taste, and here's why." But it feels like your reading experience was not in-depth enough to feel like you're able to say that at this moment in time, and also you don't know what kind of reader you'll be in 10 or 20 or 30 years.

LIZZEY: 100%. Can I add one more detail about-

ANNE: Absolutely.

[00:31:12] LIZZEY: So another element that I'm thinking about as you're talking is, I think the cultural context is so, so important for a book like that, and I didn't have it. Like, very soon after I read this book, I reread A Gentleman in Moscow by Amor Towles, which is a book I adore. And that's set like 30 years after this book ends. I could be getting the dates wrong a little bit.

But so much had changed in Russian society between those two books, and I was like, "Oh, I think I would've enjoyed The Brothers Karamazov a lot more if I had understood what was going on in Russia at that time in their society." It was the end of serfdom, and a new class was rising up. I think for these classic books, I need to do a little bit of prior study to help understand the scene that they're set in. And I think that will really help my enjoyment of them. So that's like a note for myself for the future is to do some study in advance.

[00:32:20] ANNE: You know what's so interesting is I think that much contemporary historical fiction we're reading does some of that work for you. Like, it helps you understand the context.

LIZZEY: Yes.

ANNE: Amor Towles isn't assuming you know nothing, but he also really helps you out in understanding the world the count was living in, and not just the world of the hotel. That's not all I'm talking about. But Brothers Karamazov assumes a lot of you.

LIZZEY: 100%. He just is like, "So yeah, the serfs, there's no more serfs, and they used to be serf owners, so they're bad." I could be getting some of these details wrong. He keeps referencing Pushkin. I'm like, "I don't know how important Pushkin is to this society. I think I would appreciate this a lot more if I understood what you're trying to tell me in these small details that I just... I don't know."

[00:33:10] ANNE: And I think the subtext I'm hearing is at the stage of life in which you were reading this book, you wanted to read the book. You didn't want a lit seminar on how to approach the book, the background information you needed to know, etc, etc. In order to read the book, you wanted to be able to read a book.

LIZZEY: Correct. I wanted simplicity.

ANNE: Okay. Because sometimes, I mean, readers might be thinking, "Well, there's a solution here I'm seeing," but that's not the package you were looking for.

LIZZEY: Correct.

ANNE: Okay. Maybe it'll be the package you're looking for at age 45, but not today.

LIZZEY: Fingers crossed.

ANNE: Yeah, not when Lucy's less than seven months old.

LIZZEY: Seven months old, yeah.

ANNE: Okay. Lizzey, what have you been reading lately?

[00:33:54] LIZZEY: The book I'm reading for my classic book club, which I referenced a few times, is Tender is the Night by F. Scott Fitzgerald. It's, on paper, my perfect book because it starts in the French Riviera. I'm obsessed with France. I took French all through college. It's set in the French Riviera. It's basically about a love triangle, I would say, if that's not too simplistic of a way to say that. So it's a great start.

And then to my knowledge, it ends in Long Island. Maybe it doesn't actually come back to New York. But F. Scott Fitzgerald is a New Yorker, so I'll give him that. And so far it's been really, really lovely. I do think I'm having the same problem where I went back to work recently, and so I'm kind of trapped in this like I just don't have a ton of time to read this in the way I would like to. And then I didn't start early enough.

[00:34:48] So I think some of the problems I'm having with this book are entirely self-created. But the book itself, whenever I settle down with it and really focus, I love it. And I think it's exquisitely told, and I can see why he's the master. So I'm really enjoying that.

And then I always have like four or five books going at the same time, which is my own problem. So I'm reading Crossing to Safety by Wallace Stegner, Dolly All The Time by Annabel Monaghan, and then Fates and Furies by Lauren Groff. So lots of different books kind of going in the background, but really trying to focus on Tender Is The Night right now.

ANNE: Okay, I'm glad to hear that. So what are you hoping to take away from our conversation when it comes to recommendations on what you might read next or in the future?

LIZZEY: I would really like to hear some classics you think I should read based on what I've shared, and think of some fun pairings that could go with them, things we could do, and I'm happy to workshop those together because I plan events for a living, and I just find that I love to curate experiences. And I think that makes my reading life more enjoyable, and I have more motivation to finish my books when I have something I get to do to look forward to.

[00:36:04] So I'd love to think of some classic excursion pairings. And then if you have any tips for how to read the classics better at this period of my life, I would love to hear them because I'm trying to improve my method.

ANNE: This sounds good to me. Lizzey, let's start by talking tips, and I'm thinking specifically about what you said in your submission about how you often try to read these like you do regular books, which is late at night, wanting to read quickly, and they just don't grab you. So it's easy to, I think as you said, read five pages and be like, "Wait a second, my mind is wandering. What is even happening?" And we don't want that to happen for you.

So let's talk about maybe approaching that differently. And, you know, we've just been saying the classics without really saying what we're talking about. Like, how does your book club define a classic? In Modern Mrs Darcy Book Club, and we've done classes on this, the very loose way we've defined is about 50 years old, still being commonly read today. And then often we'll talk about modern classics as well, which loosely defined, works of such literary merit I feel like that needs air quotes, highly subjective, but the language endures, the story endures, still has something to say decades later. Often being taught in classrooms is a signal, but not a defining quality that it's the kind of book we're talking about. But how do you all think about this for your book club?

[00:37:36] LIZZEY: It's a great question. I think we have a very loose definition of it. Like for example, our spring book club was Anne of Green Gables and paired with a book called Hotel Ludwig, which is like set in New York and written by...

ANNE: Oh, I don't know that one.

LIZZEY: His last name's Bemelmans. He wrote the Madeline books. He illustrated the Madeline books.

ANNE: Oh, okay.

LIZZEY: And so he has a bar called Bemelmans Bar that he illustrated the designs in the bar. And so we wanted to go to Bemelmans Bar, so we read like a double pairing of Anne of Green Gables and Hotel Ludwig. Those are both atypical classics. They're not in the same category as East of Eden, but they felt old enough. They felt like they had enduring significance, or like in the case of Hotel Ludwig, he has enduring significance because of the Madeline series and all of that. So I think we have a pretty loose method of defining that, but it has to be old. That's a good bar for us.

ANNE: How old?

[00:38:36] LIZZEY: Definitely 1900s. Lonesome Dove is the earliest classic I would count, and I feel like that's... Is that like 1980s or something?

ANNE: That sounds right.

LIZZEY: Yeah. I would say about 50 years, like what you said. That feels like a good mark for us.

ANNE: Okay. It's possible that there's something I think you would really like where I'm like, "Okay, is this old enough? Is this old enough?" We're going to talk about it.

LIZZEY: I trust you.

ANNE: Okay. So tips. First of all, people come to the classics for different reasons, and I really want readers to hear and understand that. Like some readers just really are seeking to... I mean, people have explicitly told me, "I am seeking to recapture my lit seminar experience from college or grad school where we can just really get into all the things, the symbolism, the literary heritage, the meta-analysis." Like they want to dig in and talk, and talk, and talk. And that's not everybody, and that's fine.

[00:39:35] Some readers are looking for an experience. They want the mood, they want to be immersed in the time period of history, nature, strong emotions, the power of imagination, timeless tales, old-fashioned feeling now customs. Like, that's the appeal for them.

Some people are enchanted by history. Some readers just don't want to miss out on all the good stuff available to them in the literary canon, whether that's traditional or reconsidered.

Some readers are really drawn to the power and distinctiveness of language in the classics. And I've heard you say, Lizzey, "The language, the language, the language" over and over. Classic novels often use language that definitely sounds more notable to the modern ear, in part because it's old, and it's not how we talk or write anymore. And we're really captured by older words and phrases or recognizable quotes that have become well-known over time. But these classics with striking language and also writing that just seems so well-crafted, that may have unique structures or groundbreaking at the time narratives, really appeal to a writer drawn to these linguistic elements.

[00:40:56] We did a great Modern Mrs Darcy Book Club class on this years ago, I think it was 2020 or 2021, on what kind of classics reader are you. And that may be interesting to book club members or those who are interested in signing up to check that out. But, for readers I believe... not like we can't be drawn to the classics for different readers, but for those who really love the language, James Baldwin, Toni Morrison, Gabriel Garcia Marquez are reliably wonderful authors with numerous works to choose from to get started with. And you could keep quotes in a journal or a spreadsheet.

You said you didn't do audiobooks much because you're more of a mono-tasker these days, but if you really enjoy the language, listening to the audiobook while reading on the page might sound like overkill. It also might be a perfect way to just let the language wash over you. Experience it in your ears, but also not miss visualizing it on the page.

[00:42:02] LIZZEY: I think it also might help me focus, because it creates kind of a holistic experience, and you're surrounded by it. So in some ways, I actually think that would be a great idea. I've thought about doing that with Tender Is the Night, because I'm having trouble focusing on what it's telling me. And I think surround-sounding it would be a great experience.

ANNE: Yeah. And I think something I see a lot of readers do is they think, "Okay, I'm a grown-up, I'm a reader, I should be able to enjoy this classic work on my own, left to my own devices, no context." But, if you were in a grad school seminar, you wouldn't just go home and start reading the book. You would talk about it first, often in a group. So if you do really enjoy the language, or for any reader, just knowing what you're getting into before reading the book, look, you can go into any book cold if you want to, but many readers find that old, dense, substantial books are ones that really lend themselves to knowing what the story's about before going in.

[00:43:06] So if you read an essay, a summary, if you talk to another reader before sitting down to let the language wash over you, you can pay closer attention then to the writer's craft, to deciphering what the older language is saying, or just paying attention to the beautiful turns of phrase.

LIZZEY: Mm-hmm. I love that you said that, because the language and then the lit class experience are the two types of classic reader profile that you shared that stuck out to me. I love a footnote. I love knowing what the chapter, the Grand Inquisitor in The Brothers Karamazov is trying to tell me about, like what is the overarching theme that I'm supposed to get when I'm reading through that chapter. That is one of my very favorite parts of reading the classic is getting to get the full context of what is happening. So I think I would do well with some prior study.

[00:44:02] ANNE: Yeah. And just even simple things. Okay, I recently read Jane Smiley's 13 Ways of Looking at a Novel, and now I'm going to talk about it in every episode for a year. I think I'm kidding, but time will tell. But she talks a lot about various classics and what they're doing. And I just remember her... Like, I've read Anna Karenina twice, it's been a long time, which is very succinctly she says, "What you need to understand is this is what's happening with Kitty, this is what's happening with Levin. These are their roles in the story." I think she said like three sentences, and my brain went, "Oh. I wish somebody had told me that going in. It would've helped me experience the story more as opposed to trying to discern what Tolstoy was up to." Being told what the author's up to so you know what to look out for is just so helpful. Even if somebody tells you, "Pay attention to the water imagery," something real simple like that changes the way you read.

LIZZEY: 100%. I agree.

[00:45:00] ANNE: So, okay, just a couple quick tips. And we wrote a blog post... We. We as I. That's the royal we. Wrote about helping you tackle kind of intimidating classic novels years ago. We'll link it in the show notes. But immersing yourself in context, using a tool like SparkNotes. Like, you're not plagiarizing an essay. It's a great resource for comprehending classic lit, or it can be, used well, review the character list, read the plot summary, see what themes and symbols are to be paying attention to. And then you're not reading it as a substitute for the story. You're reading it to appreciate and get more out of the story.

Having a copy that you can mark up is really helpful. Your brain processes the words differently when you're interacting with them on the page. And like, don't make this feel like homework, unless you really like homework. Just mark down what interests you or sparks your curiosity, what you want to look up later.

[00:46:00] One of the most helpful things that I didn't start doing until my 30s was taking the blank pages in the beginning of a book that often exist, or just writing right on top of the title page, and writing down something like, "Page 18, quote. Page 374, theme restated." Just things that I can refer back to that are really important in helping me understand the core of the book, like to think deeply about it later.

Some readers like to make character lists or sketch out family trees. Some like to sketch maps. My art skills aren't that good. But the act of putting pencil or highlighter to paper helps readers retain what they're reading. Maybe you have a different system that works for you that doesn't involve a pencil. That's great, but think about how an interactive kind of experience might help you.

[00:46:56] Audiobooks are great. Honestly, movies can be great. I remember reading an interview with Jennifer Ehle, who was Elizabeth Darcy in the 1995 Pride and Prejudice with Colin Firth, and she said, "Reading the Jane Austen novel, it's so tricky to get your modern ear around the language, and I had to hear it out loud to get the hang of it." And that felt so affirming to hear her say that. Because when you're watching the movie it doesn't sound stilted. Like it sounds like people talking. And when you're listening to an audiobook or watching the movie, they've interpreted it for you. Like, you can hear it as spoken speech and not like you stuttering over, "I'm not used to this sentence structure."

LIZZEY: Mm-hmm.

ANNE: And talking about it with other readers, and look, that's why you're here today, because this is something you're already doing.

[00:47:45] LIZZEY: Yes. Ah, I love that. I agree wholly. That's why I love Shakespeare in the Park, the free play New York City does every summer, because Shakespeare's so confusing to me when read on a page, but then seeing how they act it out and put a modern interpretation on it but still using the old language, I have such an appreciation for Shakespeare that in the past when I was reading it in my English classes, I was like, "What? What are you saying? I am not following anything." And as soon as I saw it performed, I said, "Oh, I get why this has endured for as long as it has." It is miraculous. But I never got that until I saw it in person.

ANNE: Yeah. I hear that. Oh, and also, so many classics have an introductory essay in the front. And some readers are going to want to be careful with those, because they often do discuss the entire book start to finish. And maybe you feel like just by living in this world, "I know how Pride and Prejudice ends," that's totally fine. I tend to feel that way about Jane Austen. There's no such thing as a spoiler in Jane Austen, but you may have another opinion.

[00:48:50] But those essays can be really helpful in that they often will tell you, "This is when the book was published. This was the context. Here's a little bit about the author's biography. Here's the reason they wrote this book when they did. Here's the difficult path to publication, or here was the easy path to publication. This is what the initial critical reception was. This is how it hits differently today." You know, just curated nuggets that somebody believes will inform your reading experience or how you understand the book and its meaning.

LIZZEY: Yeah, I love that.

ANNE: Any of that helpful?

LIZZEY: Oh, so helpful.

ANNE: Anything missing, I mean, of course, lots of things are missing, but anything you would add that's helped you?

LIZZEY: No, I think I need to be a little bit more disciplined to do the pre-work, because I think I know myself, and the pre-work helps me appreciate the novel I'm reading so much. Yeah, exactly like you said earlier, I can get out of having to try to parse through the sentences to see what it's trying to tell me, and because I already know what it's trying to tell me, I can enjoy it so much more on the second read.

[00:50:04] I had that experience with East of Eden. I read it in high school and enjoyed it, but it didn't stick out to me that much. And then when I reread it recently, because I already had a basis for understanding it and I'd studied it in that class, I could just sit back and appreciate the novel in its entirety. So I think the more I can do that and do a little hard work upfront, it's going to pay off a lot.

ANNE: That sounds good to me. Okay, I am, in the back of my mind, thinking of books and literary excursions, but would you please first tell us about some of your memorable literary excursions and book pairings that you've done with book club?

LIZZEY: I've already referenced some of these, so I will be repeating them, but I'll highlight my three favorites, because I just think I love it. I love the different seasonal settings we explore. So last fall, we did Picture of Dorian Gray and The Legend of Sleepy Hollow, and we went upstate to Sleepy Hollow, the town, for the day, and we went to Washington Irving Cemetery. And they were doing a half-marathon for Halloween, so everyone was dressed in costumes as they were running the half-marathon.

[00:51:21] So we were just watching the half-marathon go past, and the leaves were changing, and we were talking about these creepy old books that, at least for The Legend of Sleepy Hollow, it had been set in that town. I think that was really fun for our book club to also get out of the city and have a whole day together, because it helped with bonding. Because not all of us knew each other initially, so it kind of helped us coalesce as a group even more. And we just loved that excursion, so I'm really excited for our fall trip this year.

Another memorable one was The Brothers Karamazov, and then the New York City Ballet, and the vodka martinis. I just loved that. We ended that book club at 2:00 in the morning in formal dresses in the West Village in New York, and I was like, "This is so weird, but I'm loving every second of it." Like, I just feel so charmed by the setting we found ourselves in.

[00:52:18] And then our spring book... I think all of us after The Brothers K needed a break. And so we were like, "Let's do something a little unconventional." So we picked Anne of Green Gables and we picked Hotel Ludwig, and we went to the Brooklyn Botanic Gardens when the cherry blossoms were in bloom. And we had just named ourselves the Blue Stockings and bought our matching socks, and so we were all in our little blue stockings, it was so cute, and wandering around the gardens. And then got to go to Bimbleman's Bar and just have a drink and enjoy the person that wrote Hotel Ludwig. So really, really special.

I think one reason I love the excursions is because even when we don't like a book, meeting for book club is like a non-negotiable for me. It's always one of my favorite things. I love being with my friends and talking about it, even if the book wasn't enjoyable. Like, I really did not enjoy Hotel Ludwig, but that day with my friends, having this curated fun experience in New York City, made it so worth it. You know? It didn't feel like a bummer that I hadn't enjoyed that book. I still got to go to the botanic gardens and hang out with my friends and talk about it. So that felt really special.

ANNE: That sounds amazing.

LIZZEY: So good.

[00:53:38] ANNE: Okay, thanks for sharing those with us. Gosh, I am overdue for a trip to New York. It's been a few years. All right. Lizzey, I have some ideas for you. Tell me what you think. I've really confined myself to New York City here as a way to rein in from the classics. There's so many. But we're thinking about destinations you could actually go to, and I'm aiming for a range of years and content, and also just how the books land emotionally, what the literary tone is, variety of language, that kind of thing.

LIZZEY: That's perfect.

ANNE: Okay. I'm also keeping in mind I want to get you at least a couple of books that would definitely offer an extremely rewarding reading experience if you read all the essays and researched in advance and knew everything about the whatever era or the literary society that the author was a part of. But also, you could just get in bed and read a chapter at night, and you would know what was going on in this story. So that's what I'm aiming for.

LIZZEY: I love it so much.

[00:54:43] ANNE: Okay. Have you read Passing by Nella Larsen?

LIZZEY: No.

ANNE: I love this for you. I'm not the boss of your book club, but I love this for your book club, too, because it's so discussable, it's short, and it lends itself to a field trip. It's just 141 pages. And for those who tend to think that the classics are dry and dusty and boring, check out this book. And then you could watch the adaptation, which I haven't seen, but it has Tessa... Tompkins? I've loved her since the Veronica Mars days, and I've heard it's good, so that's hearsay, but there's lots you could do with this book.

But Nella Larsen wrote this in 1929. It's set during the Jazz Age in Harlem. It's the story of two childhood friends who reconnect after they've chosen very different paths, very different ways to lead their lives. Both women are Black and light-skinned. One has chosen to pass for White, and is even married to a White man who doesn't know anything of her heritage or history. The other friend is married to a successful African American physician.

[00:55:50] As the women start to spend more and more time together... you know what? I didn't identify these women by name, but one of their lives, the one who has chosen to be active in the African American community in this day and age, starts looking better and better to the woman who's chosen to pass for White. And what unfolds as envy starts to creep into the relationship and take over this woman's mind. It feels like a psychological thriller.

The ending is perfect and shocking. This story feels so fresh and modern and unexpected. I couldn't believe it was written nearly 100 years ago. Obviously, I'm reading this as a White woman in the 21st century in Kentucky. Like, these are not my people and not my place. So I really need those introductions to really understand the context and the history and how common were these characters' actions at the time. The answer surprised me, what I read in the literary commentary. But, what a portal into a different time and place.

[00:56:55] This could be a great entry point to Nella Larsen and the Jazz Age and the Harlem Renaissance, which is right up the road from you. I mean, I'm definitely not going to pretend to be your Harlem Renaissance tour guide. Like, I walk the streets of the area, but I don't know any. I want to read this and go visit Harlem. But I know that there's a lot there you could do, from formal walking tours to just like, "Hey, friends, let's go check out some of the sites and intersections that were name-checked in this book." How's that sounding?

LIZZEY: I love this idea. I also love it feels very fall-themed because of the psychological thriller aspects of it. So this book sounds fabulous. It sounds a little bit like The Vanishing Half by Brit Bennett in some ways.

ANNE: Oh, my gosh. That is a wonderful flight pairing for this book. Just excellent.

LIZZEY: Yes, I loved that book a couple of years ago. So that would be amazing. We could do a walking tour and end at a jazz bar. I'm loving it.

[00:57:56] ANNE: Yes. Okay. I love that for you. Okay, vibe shift. How about some Edith Wharton?

LIZZEY: Okay. Never read Edith.

ANNE: Well, she was a New York City author, and she did not like New York. She describes it constantly as ugly and bland and boring, but her books are set in New York City, and there are so many different places and locations. I haven't read everything, but my recommended starting points would be either The House of Mirth or The Age of Innocence. And I really like the locations that are on the pages of The Age of Innocence, and it's probably her best-known. So let's start there.

This is a story about fashionable, rules-driven, turn-of-the-century New York society. And she was born and raised in elite New York society. She married into New York elite society, as she was expecting to do. Her novels were both very much in this world while being critical of this world, and yet we see the characters struggle with wanting to break free of the norms and conventions, but when they do, they are punished on the page.

[00:59:21] So in The Age of Innocence, we meet a gentleman lawyer named Newland Archer. He's of elite New York society, and he's getting ready to wed his fiancée, who is also of elite New York society, and they are going to cement their legacy and their wealth by uniting these families in marriage, as you did back then in these social structures. So his fiancée is like the platonic Victorian female. She's beautiful. She's rich. She's... Oh, gosh, my mind is thinking Jane Austen. She is an accomplished woman. She's a society lady.

And the gentleman lawyer, he's like, "Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I know this is what I want. Of course this is what I want. I'm that kinda man, you know. Like, I want the best. This is what my culture says the best is." But also, he then kinda falls in love with his fiancée's cousin, who has just returned to New York after leaving behind a marriage to a European count that went badly, and she is flashy, and fun, and sexy. He's intrigued, and he kinda wants to throw over his parents, and society, and everything that society has said he owes them, and do whatever he wants. So does he want to make the good match, or does he want to follow love, or what he thinks love is? That is the question.

[01:00:48] But, in this book, they go to Grace Church. They go to the little art museum up in the park, which is The Met. They wander the streets of the Village. They stop their horse and carriage in Union Square. They visit the intersection at University and Lower Fifth. They visit a brownstone on East 39th. They really get around Manhattan. And that could be really fun to be reading with the city you live in in your mind, knowing these locations. Like Grace Church, that's going to look exactly the same. Like, you could stand on the little paved path going up to the doors and be like, "Yep, Edith Wharton was here. Her character was envisioned being right here." And then, you know, things like The Met have changed a lot but also not as... It's still The Met. It's still the art museum in the park. And what I really want to know is how is this sounding?

[01:01:43] LIZZEY: I love this book. This was actually a book we considered for our summer read because of all the reasons you said, Edith being a New York City author. But it sounds so lovely. I would love to just go to The Met for a day and have lunch or dinner there, and then wander through the museum and talk about this book. It sounds amazing.

ANNE: That sounds good to me. I was asking you how you define a classic because I really wanted to put some Laurie Colwin on your radar if you hadn't read her yet.

LIZZEY: I have not.

ANNE: Okay. So she is an American writer who died at age 48 in 1992. She was still writing at the time of her death, but that was not that long ago. She started writing in the late '60s, and the books that I think you might really enjoy were published in the '80s. But modern classic I don't believe is a stretch at all. I hear those words associated with Laurie Colwin all the time.

[01:02:41] And Lizzey, I wish I could quote the words that came out of your mouth when I thought, "Ugh, Laurie Colwin," but you said something about how you love food and friends and family and gatherings and...

LIZZEY: Mm-hmm...

ANNE: Yeah. Do you want to fill in the blanks for me, or is that enough?

LIZZEY: Yes. I just am a social butterfly. I love hosting people. I love eating and drinking with my friends and family. I feel like people are always at our house. It's my favorite thing in the world to eat and drink with my friends.

ANNE: Well, Laurie Colwin shared a similar love, similar sensibility. She indulged hers in the Village, from her childhood in the '40s through the early '90s. And she wrote both fiction and nonfiction. Her best-known nonfiction book is probably Home Cooking. The subtitle is A Writer in the Kitchen. And she writes about... I mean, she writes about food preparation, but also what it means to gather people, what it means to cook, where the pleasure is in cooking.

[01:03:45] She tells these wonderful stories about meals that were lovely and perfect and satisfying, and also ones that just went horribly, terribly, disastrously wrong. If I had to pick one word for Laurie Colwin, she is charming. She's consistently funny. It feels like she's talking to you as a friend. She feels like a relatable kind of expert who's wise and who's seen things, but always gracious and understanding. Like, she's going to understand where you're coming from, and she understands when it's been a hard day, and she understands when you want to make the meal really special, and she understands when things aren't quite working out the way that you hope they would, and can she tell you a story to make you feel better about it?

So I was about to say, that's Home Cooking, even though I didn't tell you very much. But she's also well known for, and listen to this very strong sales pitch, she's well known for writing fiction in which not that much happens and yet, readers find themselves hanging on every word to find out what happens in these novels where not much happens.

[01:04:49] A typical kind of review of Laurie Colwin is, "How did I just read this book in which not much happens and still came away feeling completely charmed." Or like my friend read one of her novels and said, "Okay, I think I just read this book about a woman quietly trying to destroy her own life. Why was it so winning?" Like, it was so winsome. And I'm smiling to myself as I'm reading about this woman sabotaging herself. How? And the answer to the how is Laurie Colwin. She has a whole collection of books to choose from. You know, not like in the tens, but 10-ish books. But I recommend starting with Home Cooking for nonfiction.

And then for a novel, she has one quartet, and I believe the others are all standalones. I haven't read everything, but I aspire to. She did write a book that maybe is not for you. So I want you to know. It's called A Big Storm Knocked It Over. It's about a woman whose entire life is disrupted, made chaotic, and then needs to be rebuilt. The big storm that knocked it over, I am sorry to tell you, is the arrival of her firstborn child. So maybe don't read that one yet unless you really want to.

[01:06:07] LIZZEY: I mean, Lucy is a storm, but a beautiful storm. So we'll see.

ANNE: Well, Laurie Colwin wouldn't deny that, but she would understand that it does change some things in a person's life. Okay, decide how you feel about the new baby thing, but that would not be... It wouldn't be a bad place to start. I can tell you that my first novel that I read by her was Happy All the Time, where... yeah, I was just going to tell you again, not much happens. It's about two couples who are more or less happily married, and yet even though plots thrive on conflict, there's a story there despite there not being a whole lot of conflict.

LIZZEY: Yeah. This sounds so, so up my alley. I don't think I've heard of this person, but her novels sound like they fit exactly into themes I like. I read a lot of books about food and hosting, like Supper of the Lamb or Save Me the Plums, and this feels similar, adjacent in some way.

[01:07:07] ANNE: Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Those books would nestle up very comfortably on a bookshelf. They have a lot to say to each other. And I think those authors would very much enjoy each other's company. I know Ruth Reichl wrote an intro to one of Laurie Colwin's reissues.

LIZZEY: Oh, well, maybe then I need to start there. I love Ruth Reichl and is one of my very favorite authors, so that pairs well.

ANNE: Oh, yeah. And for a book club... I mean, y'all have been really creative with this, but if I were making it up off the cuff, not an event planner, you go for a walk, you eat a good meal, you have a good conversation. You honor Laurie Colwin.

LIZZEY: Oh, that's lovely.

ANNE: All right, I'm going to stop there. We've covered a lot of ground. Thanks so much for bringing your classics questions and also your book club adventures to What Should I Read Next?.

LIZZEY: Thank you for letting me talk about it. It's been the delight of my life.

[01:07:56] ANNE: Oh my gosh. Well, the pleasure is all mine. But Lizzey, before you go, please tell me what you think you may read next. So we talked about Passing by Nella Larsen and the Harlem Renaissance adventures you could go on. We talked about Edith Wharton, and specifically The Age of Innocence, and how you could cover Washington Square, Grace Church, up to The Met. And then we talked about the works of Laurie Colwin and the associated potential food and dinner possibilities. So of those books, what do you think?

LIZZEY: They're all amazing. Truly. I feel like... So my book club trip, our summer trip, is this weekend, so I will be bringing them all to the group, and we will decide as a group what we explore next. But if I had to guess, I would pick Passing by Nella Larsen. It just fits the fall theme so well. I love the psychological thriller aspect you talked about, and I think it would be really perfect for our fall book. But I'll report back on what we choose, because I truly could see us doing all of them at some point in time.

[01:08:59] ANNE: Well, that sounds amazing, especially for fall in New York. I'll be curious to hear what they think, and I hope you all have a great time with whatever you end up reading and doing next.

LIZZEY: Thanks, Anne.

ANNE: Thanks, Lizzey.

Hey, readers. I hope you enjoyed my conversation with Lizzey, and I'd love to hear what you think she should read next. Find Lizzey on her Substack. We have that link, as well as the full list of titles we talked about at whatshouldireadnextpodcast.com.

Make sure you're following in Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Overcast, wherever you get your podcasts. Find us on Instagram @WhatShouldIReadNext. And make sure you're on our email list by signing up at whatshouldireadnextpodcast.com/newsletter.

Thanks to the people who make this show happen. What Should I Read Next? is created each week by executive producer Will Bogel, Media production specialist Holly Wielkoszewski, social media manager and editor Leigh Kramer, community coordinator Brigid Misselhorn, community manager Shannan Malone, and our whole team at What Should I Read Next? and Modern Mrs. Darcy HQ. Plus the audio whizzes at Studio D Podcast Production.

Readers, that's it for this episode. Thanks so much for listening. And as Rainer Maria Rilke said, "Ah, how good it is to be among people who are reading." Happy reading, everyone.

[00:00:00] EMILY HOLLADAY: That would be a good... what do we call it? Side... What do you call it when we have two books together?

ANNE BOGEL: A flight.

EMILY: Flight, yes. Why could I not think of that?

ANNE: A side quest? Is that what we're doing? We could call it that too.

Hey readers, I'm Anne Bogel, and this is What Should I Read Next?. Welcome to the show that's dedicated to answering the question that plagues every reader, what should I read next? We don't get bossy on this show. What we will do here is give you the information you need to choose your next read. Every week we'll talk all things books and reading, and do a little literary matchmaking with one guest.

[00:00:43] Readers, every week here on the podcast, we share an hour of enthusiastic book talk, and our podcast stays free for all to enjoy. We've been doing that for 10 years now, but a lot goes into crafting this hour of free bookish entertainment every week. We have our team of talented readers, writers, and editors who we pay competitively for their expertise. We select platforms that are reliable and allow thousands of you to enjoy our show every week, no matter where you are.

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No matter which of these actions you take, know that our team is grateful. We truly couldn't do this without you. Thank you for listening, and thank you for supporting our show.

[00:02:45] Readers, today's guest is a Kentucky neighbor who came to me with both a specific reading project and a dilemma I know is shared by many readers. Emily Holladay is a pastor in Frankfort, Kentucky, where she lives with her family. As a newish mom, Emily is still finding her outside-of-parenthood hobbies, but reading has been a constant throughout her life.

Emily's a member of a book club at Carmichael's Bookstore, which you may recognize the name of because it happens to be my local bookstore. When Emily completed her guest submission form and told us there about her struggles with covering some specific spaces on her Carmichael's bingo card, well, I knew exactly what she was talking about.

And because our listeners have responded enthusiastically to episodes featuring readers' various reading challenges, we thought it might be fun to dig into the details of this particular bingo challenge. What compelled Emily to sign up? What has she read so far? Which categories are tripping her up? And what might she read to get the cover all that she is aiming for?

[00:03:43] Emily also has a near universally relatable reading dilemma that we'll dig into today. Like many readers, Emily often finds herself browsing Libby for her next read without a good sense of which of the available options, that is the ones that she can click and download right then, which of those options might fit her reading tastes best.

As Emily put it in her submission, she often feels like every book that's top of mind for her is also on everyone else's mind, since they tend to be the same new releases and buzzy books that everyone is seeing everywhere, or so it seems.

Emily suspects she would be happier if she had an assortment of backlist books on her radar, top of mind, that would make for satisfying reading for her, and that hopefully will be available on Libby right then when she wants to download when she's ready for her next book versus those long wait times she's encountering for the new releases. You know I have ideas for Emily for bingo and for Libby strategy. This is going to be fun. Let's get to it.

Emily, welcome to the show.

EMILY: Thanks, Anne. I'm so glad to be here.

[00:04:43] ANNE: Oh, the pleasure's mine. I was really excited to read your submission when it came through. So we are airing this episode the end of July. We've still got some summer left for summer reading and other summer enjoyment. And I had a personal connection to this challenge that was really fun. It sounds like we have a lot of overlap in our personal life. It's nice to talk to somebody from the great state of Kentucky.

EMILY: Yes, I'm so excited. It's so fun to listen to you and know that we have some history in common, and now to be able to talk to you is so cool.

ANNE: Well, thank you. I'm delighted to dive in today to your reading life and summer book bingo. And readers, the thing that caught my eye specifically was Emily's pursuit to get a cover all in her Carmichael's Bookstore bingo card, but I knew many systems throughout the country do book bingo and summer book bingo. And also, y'all love to hear about a challenge, and I love to talk about a challenge, no matter what kind of challenge it is. So there's lots here to enjoy today.

Emily, could we start by just giving the readers a glimpse of who you are? Please tell us a little about yourself.

[00:05:48] EMILY: As we alluded to, I'm originally from Louisville, Kentucky, but I now live in Frankfort. I'm the pastor of Immanuel Baptist Church in Frankfort. I have lived in Kentucky for a total of 27 years, but I've also lived in Birmingham, Alabama, Atlanta, Georgia, and a little sojourn to a town outside of DC called Bowie, Maryland.

I'm married to Scott, who's a middle school English teacher. We have a seven-year-old boy and a two-and-a-half-year-old girl, and we love them so much. But a lot of our time is obviously spent at the pool, carting them around to summer camps, and all these different kids' events.

One of the questions that always comes up is, you know, what do you do outside of that? And I'm still kind of learning what my outside of parenthood and also outside of pastorhood hobbies are. But reading has always remained a constant for me, so I am just very excited to talk about books today.

[00:06:54] ANNE: Oh, well, I imagine that reading as a constant is very relatable to so many of our listeners. But if you're new to reading as an adult, like reading for the thrill of it, the enjoyment of it, you are welcome too.

EMILY: One thing that I will add is I would love to share about the pilgrimage that I went on this past October. I went on a pilgrimage to Switzerland. And this kind of combines my book life with just my real life. Not that those are actually different things. But Common Ground Pilgrimages does these pilgrimages. And we went to Switzerland and talked about Frankenstein. The hosts of the podcast Pantsuit Politics were our guides for that experience.

Something about traveling to another continent by myself and having this experience has just really had a major impact on my life, and I think will kind of come up in some of the themes that we talk about today because I've started to slow down more and soak in just the beauty of the world around me.

[00:08:01] I mean, I know you can appreciate this. Kentucky is such a beautiful place, but being home, you can kind of forget how much you have just staring you in the face every day.

I've been joking that going across the ocean has taught me more about being rooted and growing where I am than anything else. Some of the things that have really stuck out to me recently have been people and stories of people who are learning to be where they are, and either make a difference there or just be okay there. And that's been really inspiring to me, and been just very impactful in my life right now.

ANNE: Oh, I'm glad to hear it. Okay, so you need some distance to really see and appreciate what's easy to take for granted otherwise. I don't like the phrase "take for granted". It doesn't feel quite right. But you need some distance to see clearly the things that are familiar to you, maybe.

EMILY: Right.

ANNE: Right. Okay. And that interest applies to your reading life as well?

EMILY: Mm-hmm.

[00:09:05] ANNE: Okay, I will keep that in mind. Emily, please tell me about your reading life.

EMILY: I have been a reader all my life. My mom would often tell us that we couldn't afford things, but books were the one thing that she would spare no expense on. I remember as a kid coming home from school when they would pass out the books from the Scholastic catalog, and I had a box of books, whereas other kids were coming home with one or two books. We would often spend, you know, hours browsing bookstore shelves after dinner on a Friday night. So it just has always been a part of my life.

When I came back to Louisville after seminary, I decided I wanted to join a book club because I wanted to meet some people outside of the, you know, family and friends that I had known all my life. And so I discovered that Carmichael's, the independent bookstore we've been talking about, that was just up the street from where I grew up.

[00:10:08] I discovered that they had a book club and they were about to read The Annotated Pride and Prejudice, which just made my nerdy heart sing because I love Pride and Prejudice. And these annotated versions are one side of the page is the actual book, and the other side is all these notes about the book. And so I said, "This is the perfect time to join," and started going to that book club.

And then long story short, because of my love for books and for Carmichael's in particular, my husband proposed to me at Carmichael's with the book club leader and my best friends among his accomplices. I mean, I was so surprised by that. I still can't turn the corner at Carmichael's without picturing him sitting there.

[00:11:00] So that's kind of overview of my life of reading, but I will read just about any book I can get my hands on. My favorite novels are generally contemporary romance and historical fiction. I love characters that you want to root for and storylines that pull at your heartstrings.

I really hate being confused by a book and feeling like I wasn't smart enough to get it. I feel like a very smart person, and so when I'm reading a book, and I just think they went way over my head or I don't get what everybody else got, that's really difficult for me.

But I prefer plot-driven books versus purely character-driven books. But I really want to have both that propelling plot and good character development to keep me invested in the story. My guilty pleasure is celebrity memoir, especially if it's read by the author on audio.

ANNE: Favorites?

[00:12:08] EMILY: I just recently read Chelsea Devantez's memoir, and that was really great. One of the first ones that really got me into celebrity memoirs was Jessica Simpson's, Kelly Bishop, hers was really fun, and Lauren Graham. I love Gilmore Girls, so those are fun. Matthew Perry, of course I read his. There's so many. I will blow through them.

Of course, I really gravitate to ones where they'll spill the beans on whatever happened on set. Oh, Barbra Streisand's memoir that I read earlier this year. Oh my God, I went down such a rabbit hole of watching all her movies and listening to her music. I did not know I adored Barbra Streisand until I read that memoir. She's so fun, and she's… what a woman! I mean, oh, wow. So yeah.

ANNE: Wait a second. Okay, this is pinging something in my brain from your submission, like the idea of you going down a rabbit hole, just like doing a really nerdy deep dive does not sound unfamiliar based on what I've read.

[00:13:12] EMILY: Yes. That is very common for me. I love to read a book that then makes me want to read about other things or go deeper on that topic. One example I think I gave on my submission was the book We Burn Daylight, that one of your guests, I think, recommended. Because I remember there was a... She made a joke about how it was billed as being historical fiction, and it was about the Branch Davidian and David Koresh saga in the 1990s. And she's like, "That could not be historical fiction. That's not cool."

But the way she described the book, I was like, "Oh, I need to read this." And so I read it, and then I just kept reading more about the Waco David Koresh saga. It was a weird thing to have that popping up on my Netflix and everything else over and over again every time there was a documentary that came out. But, you know, it was a part of my recent, I feel like, history.

You know, Toy Story 5 is coming out, but Toy Story 1 came out somewhere around then, and I feel like that was just yesterday. I didn't know much about it, but learning about that was fun for me.

ANNE: Okay. So you

EMILY: Feels weird to say fun.

[00:14:35] ANNE: You don't like to be impressed, you like to be moved, and you really like the details.

EMILY: Yes.

ANNE: Okay. So, Emily, I think you've been listening for a long time. What brings you to the show right now?

EMILY: Yes, I have been listening for a long time, probably since about the beginning or close to it. Since about the time that you interviewed Rider Strong.

ANNE: Oh, gosh. Well, thank you. That is a long time.

EMILY: So one of my friends from Louisville recommended the podcast to me, and then I saw that you had interviewed Rider Strong, and I was like, "Oh, my gosh. Boy Meets World," you know? So I thought that was so cool.

What brings me to the show today. I know I have filled out the submission form a couple times, but this time I thought, "I finally have something to talk about." Because normally there's that question, "What would you like to talk with Anne about?" And I'm like, "I don't know. Books?" And this time I said, "Oh, I've got this bingo challenge that our local bookstore does, and I would love to talk about how to fill some of the categories that I don't immediately have books that come to mind for those categories."

[00:15:44] So I've done this bingo card. I think Carmichael's has done it for three years, and I've done it all three. Maybe it's been more than that. I can't remember. But last year I did not cover all. I came within one or two books of covering all, and I was so upset because you get one entry for a gift card for one bingo, and you get two if you cover all. But you don't get extras for bingo-ing multiple times if you don't cover all. So I really wanted to do that.

And some of the categories are really fun, but they're meant to stretch you outside of your comfort zone and things like that. And so I just didn't immediately have picks for that. So that's what I was hoping we could talk about.

ANNE: Okay. Well, I'm looking at the Carmichael's bingo card, and readers, you can too. We will link it in our show notes. But can I ask you some of the books you have chosen already?

EMILY: Yes.

[00:16:42] ANNE: What were the first ones you picked? What did you look at and be like, "Oh, I know a book in a genre I don't usually read," or, "I know a book with a number in the title that I want to do this summer"? I'm wondering what book you picked just for the cover if you've done that yet, or the long book, 400-plus pages.

EMILY: The book just for the cover was The Wedding People. I have had that book on my mind for a long time because that cover, it's just kind of the ocean with a wine glass or something coming out of it. And at first I said, "That book looks like it's just too marketed to everybody. It's meant to be too cool," or something like that. But then I heard good reviews about it, and so I kept coming back to it. So I picked out The Wedding People, and I really enjoyed that book. My book with 400-plus pages was My Name Is Barbra, that we talked about, Barbra Streisand. That I did listen to on audio, but I don't feel like that's a cheat because it was still a big time commitment.

ANNE: Not a cheat.

[00:17:48] EMILY: And then the book with the number in the title is probably either 107 Days by Kamala Harris or Dog Man: Fetch-22, which I've been reading all the Dog Man books with my son. I got so frustrated with him because there were no books with numbers in the title for the longest time, and I'm like, "Come on, these are kids books. You've gotta... We've read, you know, 15 books so far. None of them have numbers in the title." And we finally got to Fetch-22, and I was like, "Yes, I can use that."

ANNE: Or is a book recommended by someone under age 12.

EMILY: Yeah. I wondered if that counted since I don't know if he technically recommended it to me. But I think it does, right? Because we're reading it together.

ANNE: I mean, you are the boss of your own book bingo. But if it were up to me to decide, absolutely. A book that takes place somewhere you want to travel?

[00:18:49] EMILY: I had two books that I'm trying to choose between. One was Agent Josephine, which is about Josephine Baker, and it takes place mostly in Paris. I have been to Paris, but I loved Paris, and I want to go back. I was on a tour with somebody who took me to this crepe stand and said, "If you want to be a real Parisian, you get lemon sugar crepe." And that thing was so good and not overdone like the crepes we make here. I dream about it. I want to go back.

She also told me about Josephine Baker, and she said, "I can't believe how many of you Americans don't know about her." So I read Agent Josephine. I also read her memoir, which I put under the category of a book by a Black author. But she has a memoir called Fearless and Free.

[00:19:51] And this woman was a Black American who moved to Paris to be a dancer and singer and just live in a place where she could be more appreciated because America was not open to people of color. She ended up becoming a spy during World War II, and just having this amazing life that's so cool to hear about and read about. Then also, you know, to just hear more about Paris, and it made me want to visit more places in France. Again, this whole book bingo is about broadening your horizons. And it broadened my horizons even about a place I'd already been, so it was pretty cool.

ANNE: That does sound really cool. I want to read that. Emily, some of these categories have really stymied you.

EMILY: Yes.

ANNE: How are you deciding what to read for each category? Like, what kind of mindset are you bringing to the challenge? So you've talked about broadening horizons. Are you finding yourself, for example, using this as an opportunity to read books that have been on your radar for a long time that you just haven't gotten to yet? Is it discovery? Is it other things? Is it all of the above?

[00:21:07] EMILY: I think it's all of the above. One of the categories is a book by a Native author, and I chose to read There There by Tommy Orange, which has been on my shelf for a long time. It actually was a Carmichael's Book Club pick a long time ago, and I just didn't make it to that book club. And so, you know, I said, "Okay, rather than trying to find something new, let's read this book that you have been intending to read for a while."

Others have been, you know, I've been in book clubs and things like that, and so it's just made a lot of sense to just go ahead and use one of the books that I'm already reading for the book club. A book with two or more authors. I chose Shakespeare: The Man Who Pays the Rent because I heard somebody talk about it on here. I think they said the only way to read this book is on audio, and it just happened to be that it was available on Libby, and I said, "Okay, got to read that," so it counted. So it's a little bit of everything.

[00:22:10] ANNE: Okay. I'm glad to hear that. What are the categories that you are still in need of titles for? Maybe that's the wrong way to put it, but what categories are you feeling stymied by?

EMILY: One of the categories is a book written by an author from the state of your birth. So they changed this category. Previous years it's been a book written by a Kentucky author, and then they made it more inclusive. Well, I was born in Kentucky, so I'm still needing a Kentucky author.

I keep going with Barbara Kingsolver and Emily Bingham. I want to read Jayber Crow so bad, but I don't think I'm going to commit to that this year, so then I'm lost. I don't know where to go and what to pick for a book from a Kentucky author. And I feel like I get stuck because there are so many authors I'm sure from Kentucky, but I always just think of Wendell Berry, Silas House, Barbara Kingsolver. That's kind of where my mind goes, and I would love to be introduced to some other great authors from the state of Kentucky.

[00:23:18] ANNE: Oh, I would love to claim her, but I'm pretty sure Barbara Kingsolver was born in Virginia.

EMILY: Yeah, but we-

ANNE: Can we pretend that's not true, though? It's too Kentucky.

EMILY: I know she was born in Virginia, but they claim her... On her bio they say she's from Kentucky.

ANNE: Oh, do they?

EMILY: Yeah.

ANNE: Okay. Well, I'm going to put my trust in Barbara Kingsolver official here.

EMILY: I think it's kind of where does she claim. So I claim her even though, yeah, technically not born here, but it was the state of my birth. You know, it's kinda like where is Abraham Lincoln actually from? Everybody in the Midwest claims him, but where is he really from?

ANNE: I'm curious about the "you know you want to read Jayber Crow, but not yet" thing. Do you find it intimidating? Is it not the vibe you're going for?

[00:24:07] EMILY: It's just a slower read than what I feel like I want to commit to right now. Because it's not necessarily too long, but every time that I pick it up, I want to sit with it, and I don't have a lot of sitting still time right now. Although I know I'm saying that, and all this conversation about being rooted and finding the beauty of the place where you're in is such a Jayber Crow thing, so I know I'm contradicting myself there. So maybe you can convince me that Jayber Crow is the one for that category.

ANNE: I mean, I don't know. I don't want to send you to it begrudgingly, but I was curious. Are you feeling the same way about Silas House?

EMILY: I just don't know where to start with Silas House, honestly. I have a bunch of friends who talk about how wonderful he is, and I've come to him a little bit late, and so I'm not sure where's the best place to start.

[00:25:08] ANNE: I mean, I think the one about the pastor who has the meltdown. Or is that absolutely not for you?

EMILY: Yeah. No. Pastors... I'm known to melt down from time to time.

ANNE: Okay. Well, that would be Southernmost, and we will come back to that.

EMILY: Okay. Another category is a banned book. I am always so confused about what counts as a banned book, so it's hard for me to kind of narrow that down. Another one being a book of poetry, because poetry is not always my go-to, but I do enjoy when I've read it. One of my favorite books of poetry that I've read recently is Amanda Gorman's book that came out after she read the poem at President Biden's inauguration. Her poetry was so good and so relatable, and I loved it. And then I still don't ever turn to poetry, even though I know I've had good experiences with it.

[00:26:10] A retelling of a story is just one I don't have on my to-be-read list, or something that just comes out to me, a retelling of a story. And a book with a non-human narrator. I guess you said earlier that, you know, I'm the boss of my own list, but I'm like, Cat Kid Comic Club does not count as a book with a non-human narrator.

ANNE: You don't feel like that appropriately runs your horizons in the way you're hoping this book bingo would do?

EMILY: Exactly.

ANNE: Okay. All right. This sounds fun. Okay, let me see if I jotted this down fast enough. You are looking to find titles for the categories that are a book from, for you, Kentucky, the state of your birth, poetry, a banned book, with what counts being a big question, a retelling; and a non-human narrator.

EMILY: Mm-hmm.

ANNE: Ooh. Okay. Can we talk about your options?

EMILY: Yes.

[00:27:11] ANNE: There's so much good stuff here. And really I'm imagining, maybe this is my cluttered brain, but I'm imagining that your answers for how you want to fill in these boxes are going to emerge in composite. So we're probably going to talk about Kentucky books that have a lot of different sorts of tones, and you're not going to hit that same tone for all five categories. You're probably going to want some variety, is what I'm hearing from the way you describe your reading life. So we're going to give you some options.

But Emily, you also mentioned something else in your submission about this recurring moment of readerly pain you have in your reading life where you open up Libby, and you're just like, "Aah, choices." Would you tell me about that in your own words? Because I'm definitely going to keep that in mind as we're talking about these various options for the book bingo categories.

[00:27:57] EMILY: Yes. I like to always have an audiobook going, and I mostly use Libby for that. It tends to be that I end up having a lot of holds because I'm looking at the Summer Reading Guide where books are just now coming out or I hear about books that are pretty popular and I put that on my holds list. And then I'll finish a book, and I have nothing actually available.

I search through Libby and try to find something that's on my bookshelf or TBR, and they're all still, you know, a two-week wait or a five-week wait or God forbid, a year-long wait. I go to the "Available Now" section on Libby, and I have to scroll through... And no offense to anybody, but I have to scroll through dozens of Freida McFadden and ACOTAR books. And those just... they just don't stand out to me. I want to read something that somebody in my life has said, "I think you'd enjoy that." So I'm not just listening for the sake of listening, but listening because there's something that connects me to that book or makes me want to listen to that book.

[00:29:12] It's like when you scroll Netflix at night trying to find something to watch. I'm scrolling Libby, just endlessly trying to find an available audiobook, and it's so frustrating how many flicks of the thumb I have to make in order to find one that fits.

ANNE: Do you keep some sort of running priority list of audiobooks that you may want to listen to on Libby next?

EMILY: I have a nightstand beside my bed that has probably 10 books that are my books I want to read next. And they're all physical copies, but I don't really care how I read them. So if I read them with my ears instead of my eyes, I'm good with that. So that's kind of the first thing I do is I look to see if any of those books are available on audio. And if they aren't, I will just try to think of what are the most recent books that I heard about. Either my book club, we take a time at the end to say, "Hey, what's everybody reading?" And we'll write down what we're reading, things like that.

[00:30:23] Sometimes I'll go through my Libby searches to see if anything that I have recently searched for or anything, any holds I recently had to drop have become available. And if none of that works, then I'm going to the "what's available right now" list.

ANNE: So those are great ideas, but it sounds like it's not working as consistently as you would like if you keep finding yourself in this situation.

EMILY: Yeah, because the books that are constantly on the top of my mind are often books that are on the top of everybody's minds. I think 10 years ago, I was really good at remembering both the backlist and the frontlist books, and now I do need to rethink how I'm keeping that list or keeping those things in my head because I have two kids and a full-time job, and life and memories just don't work the way that they used to.

ANNE: There's not a lot of RAM available?

EMILY: Yeah.

[00:31:30] ANNE: I hear that. Well, we are going to talk about a lot of titles today for your various book bingo categories that many of these could fulfill multiple categories, and because the prompt that your brain gets working on are things like a retelling, your mental search isn't limited to... or our conversations today won't be limited to what's on the new release table at the bookstore.

So I hope that you can use... and like listeners, you can always use our show notes as a reference. We talk about titles from new and old. Some of our episodes are ones in which readers are specifically asking for backlist gems. I know that our old Summer Reading Guides and fall and spring book previews are very popular for readers who are like, "I want something available at the library now." But I hope your notes will be a nice resource. And you know, it could be fun to go through your old book club notes and just make a list of, "Oh, I remember that sounding really interesting. Maybe that's available right now since it didn't come out in April."

EMILY: Yeah, that's a good idea.

[00:32:27] ANNE: Emily, we have talked so much about your reading life, and I feel like I have a good image of what you've enjoyed and what you're willing to try, but we haven't talked about the books that you love yet. You know how this works. You brought three books you love, one you don't, and what you've been reading lately. Let's round out the picture before we move forward. Does that work for you?

EMILY: Yes, absolutely.

ANNE: Okay. How'd you choose these?

EMILY: I took very seriously the three books you love because I'm very bad at picking favorites. So these three books are books that are some of my favorite reading experiences, and are indicative of the kind of books that I'm loving right now and what works for me in a story, in a reading experience. These are not in any particular order, but just three books that I really love. And here it goes.

[00:33:23] The first book that I chose was The Guncle by Steven Rowley. I first heard about this book actually on an episode of What Should I Read Next? back when it came out in 2021. It was one of the best books of summer episodes. One of the team members said they loved The Guncle, and she described the book as sweet, funny, and also a tearjerker, and that really intrigued me, along with the title. So I ordered it right away. And it was one of the best reading experiences that I can remember.

The book is about a washed-up actor named Patrick. He lives in Palm Springs, and his niece and nephew call him Gay Uncle Patrick or GUP for short. His niece and nephew, their mom, so his sister-in-law, dies of cancer, and his brother is like, "Hey, dude, I need you to take care of these kids for the summer so I can kind of figure my life out."

[00:34:22] He agrees to do it, but he's really in over his head, and the life he leads is not really a kid-friendly life. So we just walk with him throughout the book and learn that he is doing his best to be there for the kids, but dealing with these layers of his own grief. He creates these Guncle rules for the kids, which is one of my favorite things. Things like, "Guncle rule number one: brunch is splendid," or, "Guncle rule number five: we wear what we want." They seem really silly, but they turn out to be pretty profound. The progression of the rules goes along with his progression as a caregiver for the kids. I just love that development of relationship, the journey they walk together. It's so sweet.

Rowley is such a clever writer, and everyone just has such a unique voice. When I say that this was such a great experience reading, it's because I normally would binge a book like this. But when I read The Guncle, I ended up waking up every morning early and reading a chapter to start my day because I felt I just wanted to savor it. I did not want to leave... From Patrick and Maisie and Grant, I didn't want to leave their presence too quickly.

[00:35:42] I can't even tell you how many people that I gave this book to as a birthday present or Christmas present, or just shoved in their hands and told them they had to read it after I read it. It was so fun. It was tender. It was emotional. I laughed out loud. I cried. I just loved it.

And then I reread it and I read The Guncle Abroad through audiobook. The author narrates those books, and his voice just brings the characters off the page. It's pretty amazing. I loved that book.

I can't remember if it comes up in just one or in both of the books, but Patrick mentions that he was accepted into the residency program at Actors Theatre of Louisville, and unfortunately he turned it down, but I thought how fun it was that-

ANNE: I do not remember this.

EMILY: Yes. I just got so excited. I was like, "That's my town." Actors Theatre, that residency program is actually a pretty big deal. So it's a fun shout-out, but I wish that maybe he would go back and write a book about that, because it would be fun to see a book in Louisville.

[00:36:53] ANNE: For sure. Thank you. That's The Guncle. What's the second book you love?

EMILY: Fangirl by Rainbow Rowell. Rainbow Rowell is one of my favorite authors of all time. I would seriously just read a Post-it Note if she wrote on it. But I first found out about her the year I graduated from seminary, because one of my best friends was a master of library sciences. She was getting ready to start as a high school librarian, and she said, "I think you will love this author." I am almost a completist, but she's written some comic books that I haven't kept up with. And I haven't read her newest books. I'm not a completist yet.

But Fangirl, it's written from the perspective of Cath Avery, who's entering her first year of college. She's a huge fan of what's called the Simon Snow series, which I think at the time Rowell was relating to the Harry Potter series. So it's about a young magician who goes to school and faces a bunch of challenges against dark magic.

[00:37:54] Cath and her twin sister have spent a lot of time in high school writing Simon Snow fanfic, and they've become very popular on fanfic blog sites, which I didn't even know existed until I read this book. So when they go to college, Ren, her twin sister, wants to explore new passions, wants to learn more about herself, and Cath is this awkward introvert who's just so used to just sticking to her sister, and she's left to figure out how to finish their fanfic story on her own and try to grow into her own person without the comfort of being constantly with her twin.

It's such a sweet coming-of-age story. It has everything from the magical realism of the Simon Snow universe interspersed between chapters, where we get to see bits and pieces of both the fictional Simon Snow novels and Cath's fanfic. And it has family drama, young adult angst. Rowell really gives you someone to root for.

[00:38:59] I really buried the lede here, but there's a love scene involving a side-by-side reading of The Outsiders, which is probably the book more than any other that drew me into being a reader, like a real reader. I swoon every time I read that scene, and I've read this book multiple times. It's just so charming. It also spawned a series of Simon Snow books that Rainbow Rowell wrote based on the characters she imagined. And so for anybody who's looking for a book that then turns them on to more books, this is the one.

ANNE: Love a book like that. And also one that you love so much you've read multiple times.

EMILY: Yeah.

ANNE: Emily, what's the third book you love?

EMILY: The Almost Sisters by Joshilyn Jackson. To be honest and possibly name-droppy, not meaning to be that way, but Joshilyn Jackson is a friend of mine. We met at church when I was in seminary, post her Gods in Alabama writing. I didn't realize who she was at first, but when she told me she was an author and I asked her what she wrote, she said, "I like to think of my writing as Southern Christian fiction with cuss words, but bookstores don't always classify me that way."

[00:40:19] Her books are kind of everything: Southern fiction, domestic fiction, mystery. Now she writes thrillers. This book, The Almost Sisters, it's so much fun. It's told from the perspective of Leah Birch-Briggs, who is a comic book writer who's become most notable for her graphic novel, Violence in Violet, which has this really amazing female protagonist.

She attends a convention to promote her book, finds herself in the throes of a romantic encounter with a man dressed as Batman, and then following the convention, has to kind of drop everything and go to this small town in Alabama where her grandmother lives with her best friend. And she's gone down there to sort out family drama involving her stepsister's marriage, but stays when she discovers that her grandmother has been hiding her dementia along with some other family secrets.

[00:41:25] Batman does come to play a role again, as in the midst of all of this, Leah discovers that one night at the convention was more than one night. She's pregnant, and she has to find a way to share this news with her family in that conservative environment in Alabama. I'll tell you, I don't ever really think my Storygraph reviews are very good or very helpful, but what I said about The Almost Sisters kind of sums it up for me. "It's a must-read book for anyone feeling the tension of what the South could be and what it still is, or really anyone feeling that tension in culture in general. She makes you feel like you're reading the story of your own hometown, neighborhood, or church. The book is so entertaining that you'll find yourself laughing hysterically on one page and challenged to create a more loving society on the next."

[00:42:18] I love this book. I think I would love it even if I didn't know the author. And I feel like I'm not doing complete justice to describing the story because there's so many parts, but that's what she does so well, is just pulling together the chaos and ever-evolving pieces of our lives and weaving them together into this unputdownably relatable book. And I love it.

ANNE: Ooh, I love that description. Emily, tell me about a book that was not right for you, and I'd love to hear why.

EMILY: Okay, the book that was not right for me was My Year of Rest and Relaxation by Ottessa Moshfegh. This is a book about a young woman who recently graduated from Columbia University in New York. She lives in this fancy apartment paid for by her inheritance from her family, and she decides to do what she calls a year of narcotic hibernation.

[00:43:18] So there's this crazy psychiatrist in town who prescribes her meds for this, quote-unquote, experiment. And so it's this story of a young woman spending a year under the influence of drugs and trying to hide from the world and all that's going on. It's also set beginning in the year 2000, so there's a bit of a 9/11 through line in the story. And I felt like that ended up being, for me, more gratuitous rather than helpful to the story.

I found the narrator really unlikable and unrelatable, and that, for me, is not a good sell. I want to relate. I want to root for somebody. I'll mention my Storygraph review one more time because I laughed at it. I said, "I had a lot of trouble suspending my disbelief long enough to believe that someone on so many drugs could have the reflections she has as a narrator." I could be wrong about that.

[00:44:15] I just read John and Paul, the book about the Beatles, and they wrote a lot of great songs while they were on LSD, but they were taking drugs to heighten their awareness, and she was taking drugs to escape from it. I also read this book as a part of a book club that I went to, which had previously been led by a friend of mine. It was in a bit of transition, and the focus was on getting more people there. But when I was describing why I didn't really jive with the book, there was a new guy there who decided to mansplain to me why my opinion was wrong and to tell me how I actually enjoyed the book. That experience, along with really not enjoying the book, made it an even worse reading experience for me and left a really bad taste in my mouth.

ANNE: Didn't win you over.

EMILY: No.

ANNE: That one is also quite a bit darker than the books you've enjoyed.

EMILY: Yes.

[00:45:15] ANNE: Coincidence, or just part of the package?

EMILY: I think I don't prefer dark books. If they're done in a way that makes you want to still root for the person, I guess, or feel there's some sort of redemption, then I can go with it. But I didn't feel that from this book.

ANNE: Okay. I know you want to broaden your horizons, and also I was having a hard time syncing that up with characters you want to root for and books that pull at your heartstrings.

EMILY: Yeah, that's true.

ANNE: Okay. But all in all, not a great reading experience.

EMILY: Yeah.

ANNE: Okay. Emily, what have you been reading lately?

EMILY: I recently finished Ordinary Time by Annie B. Jones. It was part of the Modern Mrs Darcy Book Club. I didn't actually make it in time for the book club, but I just loved the way that... It just felt like you were having a conversation with a friend.

[00:46:10] Her emphasis on, again, like rooting yourself where you are and really coming to love the place that you're in, even if it's the home that you were formed in. I loved that reading experience, and I thought it was so much fun. And I didn't know anything about her before going into it.

I also recently read The Shippers by Katherine Center. I love Katherine Center. I thought that was the perfect book for vacation. Felt like it was the perfect beach read, and I was very committed to having a good beach read, because my book club books were not beach reads. So...

ANNE: Okay. A vacation book for your vac...

EMILY: Yes.

ANNE: I mean, a book that's set... Oh, it's a destination wedding, is it?

EMILY: Yes, yes. It's set on a cruise ship. It's her characteristic quirkiness, fun. You're going to laugh, you're going to cry, but you know you're going to be taken care of in the end. I love how she's able to maintain all that, and you know she loves and respects her characters and you as a reader. I know that if I'm ever in a reading rut, picking up Katherine Center will help give me that palate cleanser that I need. So she did not disappoint with this new book.

[00:47:28] ANNE: Oh, I'm delighted to hear it. Okay. I think we know what you're looking for. I mean, we could talk about your options for the rest of the day. But let's start with Kentucky. Does that work for you?

EMILY: Yes.

ANNE: You are so correct that Silas House, Wendell Berry, Barbara Kingsolver are excellent picks, but you have more, and in different broader genres as well. Like, you could look back in time and go for like a Jesse Stuart or a bell hooks, or you could do more contemporary. You could do a Meg Shaffer cozy fantasy, or Kim Michele Richardson historical fiction, or Leesa Cross-Smith contemporary. Or you know who I really like for you perhaps is Kayla Rae Whitaker. Have you read anything by her?

EMILY: No, I haven't.

ANNE: Okay. Am I remembering correctly that a sophomore novel is also a category that you were curious about how you're going to fill?

EMILY: Yes.

[00:48:30] ANNE: Well, her sophomore novel, Returns and Exchanges, just came out in May 2026. It's in this year's Summer Reading Guide. It's historical fiction that has an epilogue set in more contemporary times, but it's mostly set in the 1980s, and it's mostly set in Lexington, Kentucky.

I live in Louisville. I've not spent a ton of time in Lexington, but it's close enough, and Kentucky gets so little love at all, or appearances in fiction, that to read a book that was set granularly, like with locations and street names and historical landmarks in Lexington was... It's not something I get to do a lot.

She is a writer of, or at least her first two books have been queer fiction. Returns and Exchanges is a fascinating multi-generational epic about this married couple who married at the age of 16. They fled intense rural poverty and an abusive household, and came to the big city of Lexington, Kentucky, and are this unexpected success story as the founders of this Walmart-like Lexington-only discount chain store that expands and grows over the years.

[00:49:40] It feels a little Gatsby-esque in that they have, by so many standards, made it, but the husband especially still chafes against the fact that they have new money and have no standing or credibility in the eyes of Lexington blue bloods. And that's the backdrop to the wife developing what she doesn't even recognize as a crush on her female assistant manager, because that's not a category she can think in. But over time, that relationship grows, and it just creates upheaval in the family, the business, the community.

I mean, this is definitely a story of being rooted, but also how stretching against those constraints that at one time felt pleasing and now feel suffocating is a constant theme of the book as it unfolds over decades.

ANNE: Her first book, The Animators, is about two female animators who meet in college and make big projects. They have a tumultuous working relationship, it's complicated, but they make amazing indie adult animated films.

EMILY: Wow.

[00:50:45] ANNE: But there's this passage where they go to Louisville, and the way they describe Louisville, Kentucky, as this weird little quirky, lovable, adorable place that isn't quite any one thing, because it's kind of in the middle of everything, and it's not too big and not too small, and it's not the North and it's not South, but it's not Midwest. The way she describes Louisville is a way that could only be done as a Kentuckian, but I think, like, "Aw, somebody likes us. Somebody makes us sound good." And that aspect is, I'm going to boldly say, delightful. No equivocating, delightful. But she could be really fun for you. But you do have lots of options.

Based on what you've enjoyed, I do really wonder about The Lost Story by Meg Shaffer, bell hooks would get you a banned book for sure. I love Crystal Wilkinson. She has a poetry/prose collection called Perfect Black that could be a really interesting pick for one of several categories for you. It came out, ooh, I'm going to say five-ish years ago. I really also did love her interesting food and writing and history and ancestry collection, Praise Song for the Kitchen Ghosts.

[00:51:55] But Perfect Black is... She covers so much ground, like joy and heartbreak, love and trauma, lots about heritage and family. There's this wonderful piece about her love for Prince songs, and there's so much food throughout the book. So it's not solely a poetry collection, but I don't think the people at Carmichael's would raise their eyebrows if you wrote that in to your little poetry slot.

For Kentucky, and also poetry, I do wonder if those books that you're not sure where to start or you don't want to start now for like Wendell Berry and Silas House, I wonder if you could do poetry for one of those. Wendell Berry has several new... not new collections, old collections that are available on e-book. I don't know if they're read on audio or if you'd want to do that format. But he has tons of collections, but I personally really like his New Collected Poems and the pretty little hardcover, A Small Porch, that's also available on Libby on e-book. That could be a good place to start.

[00:52:59] And Silas House has a new poetry collection. Well, you know what? I guess at this point it came out last summer, but he has a new collection called All These Ghosts. I wonder if the poetry could be a good alternative to a novel for either of those authors right now.

EMILY: I think that would be great. That's one thing with Wendell Berry that I often find that there's just so much that it's nice to hear just a couple options to start with because he's such a prolific writer and such an amazing writer and representative of Kentucky, but the options can be overwhelming sometimes.

ANNE: You just said fewer options were good, and now I'm going to give you one more.

EMILY: That's okay.

ANNE: His newest novel in what is known as the Port William series — it has something like a dozen books right now — came out last fall, and it's really short, small format. It's less than 200 pages, and also the pages themselves are small.

[00:54:00] But what I like about this one for you... Well, what I don't like about this one for you is you won't know any of the characters, but I think that's okay. But in this book, he's very explicitly repeating a lot of his philosophy about agriculture and community and politics that he's repeated throughout his entire career and in much of his nonfiction work. And he's telling you a formative story in... it's the Catlett family, who live in this... it might be Henry County, but his Port William community is based on a real town near Carrollton, Kentucky.

But it almost feels like an origin story, like it's a myth in this family that actually happened, but is so formative in how they think about themselves. And I wonder if it's a nice little easily digestible package that's representative of his novels and his nonfiction.

EMILY: I think that sounds great.

ANNE: Well, that is called Marse Catlett, and that's the protagonist's name, the Force of a Story. Can we consider the Kentucky options done?

[00:55:06] EMILY: Yes, I think I could make a Kentucky bingo card in itself now.

ANNE: I think maybe you could. Now, that wasn't a lot of poetry, but it was some poetry. What do you think?

EMILY: Yes, I think I've got a place to go with poetry now.

ANNE: Okay. Banned books. I mean, some of those will get you the... You know what? Let's skip banned books for now, because I think we're going to touch on some. But Carmichael's has had great displays through the years. If you're not sure what... Okay, look, I'm a first-born daughter, good girl, rule follower by nature, but they've had wonderful displays through the years. And you could browse their Instagram and see what they put on their display. But you could go old. You could go new. You have so many options. Actually, you might have too many options. Maybe I should ask, is there anything you're inclined to read as a potential banned book?

EMILY: I would love to read a banned book that's newer. I know a lot of the older banned books. I've read, you know, Toni Morrison, and Octavia Butler, and things like that. But I'm interested in what books are coming out now that have been very quickly banned, or that people have just wrestled with that are newer.

[00:56:20] I feel like it's interesting to me to read books that to you and me would just seem like, "Oh, that's a story about such and such," and then somebody else really did not jive with that book and wanted it off the shelves. Not the books that you look at and you're like, "Oh, yeah, that's going to offend somebody."

ANNE: Okay. Something readers can always do is go to the American Library Association website that keeps records of top banned books for every year. So I doubt they have 2026 yet, but they'll have 2025 and prior, and so it would be really easy to see at a glance. Can I recommend one of my favorite banned books from recent years?

EMILY: Sure.

ANNE: Okay, this is now aging a little bit. It might be as many as five years old, but it's not older than that. That is Everything Sad Is Untrue by Daniel Nayeri. And it was kicking around in my brain because you were talking about Libby, and I remember the experience of hearing amazing things about this book and being so gratified that it was available right away on Libby. That just really stuck with me. I should ask first, is this one you've read?

EMILY: No, I haven't.

[00:57:25] ANNE: Okay. I don't believe this is an adult novel, but I've heard many adults with wildly disparate tastes gush about it. And they specifically recommended the audiobook. And I just looked. There's only one hold on it right now on our library network. Actually, you know what? Maybe you have it at Frankfort Library, but on the Louisville Free Public Library, Libby, there's just one hold on it right now.

But it's this beautiful, heartbreaking, hilarious book that really pulls on your heartstrings. You want to root for this kid so hard. And that kid, our narrator, is a 12-year-old Iranian kid who lives in Oklahoma and is known as Daniel because his Iranian name, Khosrou, that's not going to fly in Oklahoma Middle School. And he is a storyteller. He has this great quote that's something like, Every story is the sound of a storyteller begging to stay alive, so you can hear what they're going to tell you that'll be worth listening to. Like, that's the only way they're going to make it.

[00:58:25] But he tells story after story drawn from his family, from his heritage, from ancient Persian folklore, and sometimes from the by turns heartbreaking, horrendous, hilarious, ordinary moments of Oklahoma Middle School. How does that sound?

EMILY: I got goosebumps when you said, "Every story is the story of a storyteller begging to stay alive." Literally, the hair on my arm stood up, so that sounds beautiful.

ANNE: Amazing. I'm glad to hear it. Okay, we have lots of retelling possibilities and also lots of non-human narrator possibilities, and it just depends on what you're into. Have you read any Kevin Kwan?

EMILY: I have not. I've watched the movie, of course, but I haven't read Crazy Rich Asians or any of his other books.

[00:59:17] ANNE: Well, I feel like just here on the podcast we were recently talking about Lies and Weddings, which is a retelling of Doctor Thorne. You could read This Motherless Land by Nikki May, which is a Jane Austen retelling. That's Mansfield Park. And we've had her as a guest on the podcast, so it's possible that sounds familiar.

You could read Xochitl Gonzalez's new one, Last Night in Brooklyn. It's a gender-swapped Gatsby contemporary retelling. Home Fire by Kamila Shamsie is an amazing, punchy... Ooh, maybe not characters to root for, actually. It's a retelling of Antigone. It's pretty bleak, but wow, is it striking.

Ann Napolitano's Hello Beautiful. It's not a retelling exactly, but she calls it an homage to Little Women. Where the Rhythm Takes You by Sarah Dass is a YA Caribbean retelling of, again, Jane... not again, of Jane Austen again, but of Persuasion this time.

[01:00:08] Fault Lines by Emily Itami is dark, but has some hope to it. It's got Madame Bovary vibes. Of course, there's James by Percival Everett, which is Huckleberry Finn. Demon Copperhead, of course, by Barbara Kingsolver. That could be your 400-plus page book, but you already checked that box. How are any of these sounding? I mean, I didn't tell you very much, but is anything pinging your brain?

EMILY: No, that sounds great. This Motherless Land, I just finished Mansfield Park as a part of that Jane Austen class I'm reading, so that would be a good... what do we call it? Side... What do you call it when we have two books together?

ANNE: A flight.

EMILY: Flight, yes. Why could I not think of that?

ANNE: A side quest? Is that what we're doing? We could call it that, too.

[01:00:50] EMILY: So that would be fun. A couple of those I had already read. Of course, Demon Copperhead was one that I've read before. But yeah, This Motherless Land stood out to me. And I think Lies and Weddings. I think I remember you talking about that on a recent episode, and that was one that I flagged in my head as well. And Last Night in Brooklyn, I think could have been a book you pick for the cover, because I remember that one standing out.

ANNE: Yeah.

EMILY: I mean, I don't think it has a lot of graphics or anything. It's bold.

ANNE: It is. It's like a bright yellow.

EMILY: Yes.

ANNE: And I think both of those books, Lies and Weddings and Last Night in Brooklyn, seem like good fictional picks for fans of celebrity memoir.

EMILY: Okay.

ANNE: Now, I remember for your non-human narrator you didn't want to use Remarkably Bright Creatures because you already read it. But readers, if you find yourself in need of a non-human narrator for book bingo, that is, I imagine, a very popular pick right now.

[01:01:52] Let's see. I mean, there's so many books that have been around forever, like Redwall, The Art of Racing in the Rain, Watership Down, The Book Thief, The Murderbot series, The Call of the Wild, Grendel. The Screwtape Letters. You could go old if you wanted to or you could go more contemporary.

Lessons in Chemistry is a book that feels like it fits in with your favorites. I don't know if you've read it, by Bonnie Garmus.

EMILY: Yes, it's one of my favorite books as well.

ANNE: Okay. Well, good. I'm glad to hear it. Well, that's not going to work, but readers, if you're like, "What are you talking about with a non-human narrator?" much of it is narrated by a dog named, I think, Ninety-Nine. Does that sound right, Emily?

EMILY: It is a number. That's almost one of the book bingo categories.

ANNE: Okay. Well, I wasn't sure if you would like this based on what I knew about your favorites, but hearing what you have read and appreciated and what you're looking for, it's possible this could pull on your heartstrings a little bit. But there's this book that came out in 2023 called Open Throat that was actually recommended to me by What Should I Read Next? alum, Michelle Wilson, so thanks for that, Michelle.

[01:03:06] But this is a slim little book, but it really packs a serious punch. And it's less than 200 pages, and I think it's also small format, but I read it on Kindle.

This story is told by a mountain lion who lives in the wilds near L.A, which to give you a sense of what it's like to read this in the mountain lion's voice, Los Angeles appears as E-L-L-A-Y in the book because they're just repeating what they've heard. And this mountain lion watches hikers from the shadows and keeps close tabs on one human family in particular in this nearby encampment of unhoused people. And the mountain lion is just telling it to you as they see it, how the humans are acting and how the mountain lion is trying to make sense of it. And this is definitely strange, but it's got this sly feel to the tone, and really... it's really different. How does that sound to you?

[01:04:03] EMILY: I love that idea. I feel like that was what I was hoping for with a non-human narrator. So I've read The Art of Racing in the Rain, and I really... Talk about pulling your heartstrings. And I want to have that experience again. But it feels like so often the books that have non-human narrators, it's like Remarkably Bright Creatures where it's just interspersed with other things and you're seeing their perspective. But I could have read a whole book just narrated by that octopus in Remarkably Bright Creatures. And so I think this sounds amazing.

ANNE: I'm glad to hear it, but I'm going to give you more options in case. I just saw the trailer for Kazuo Ishiguro's adaptation of Klara and the Sun, and I imagine that's going to send many more readers back to that book. But that's narrated by a non-human.

[01:04:56] And also Elif Shafak, who was a guest on What Should I Read Next?, she's brilliant and so fascinating to listen to. She's written several books that have non-human narrators, or non-human narrators in part. The Island of Missing Trees has a final section narrated by a fig tree, and then There Are Rivers in the Sky, which is the book we mostly talked about when she was on the podcast, I think two late summers ago, is narrated by a raindrop.

EMILY: Wow.

ANNE: Yeah, it's real cool. It's real cool. Those are both a bigger investment, especially, There Are Rivers in the Sky, a bigger investment time-wise than something like Open Throat would be, but I mean, you know, maybe they're what you're looking for.

EMILY: Well, and it sounds like because those are a little bit older, that they probably would be more readily available on Libby, if not right away. So that sounds like a good option to add to my list, for sure.

ANNE: Emily, we just talked about a lot, a lot of books. How are you feeling about your book bingo?

[01:05:55] EMILY: Well, I think I'm going to get it done this year, so that's really exciting.

ANNE: You have the options. The reading of them is up to you.

EMILY: Yes, that's right. And maybe I won't be turning it in on December 31st this year like I did last year.

ANNE: I'm glad to hear it. I'm not going to rattle all these titles off, but readers, I want to remind you, if you go to whatshouldireadnextpodcast.com, we always list all the titles we talk about in the episode so that you don't have to frantically jot them down while you're driving or doing dishes or working out or, I don't know, laying on your couch. Whatever it is you like to do when you listen to podcasts, we got you covered.

But Emily, I'm really wondering what stands out to you and what you're thinking you may read next or soon.

EMILY: I think I'm going to go for Kayla Rae Whitaker and those two books that you recommended because they just sounded so good. They sounded so good. I also have not spent a ton of time in Lexington, but I live a lot closer to Lexington now than I used to, and so I feel like it would be fun to go to Costco one day and then just drive by some of the places that she talks about.

[01:07:10] ANNE: It could be. It could be. I mean, some of the street names you'll see on the highway signs. It'll look familiar. All right. Well, I'm excited that you're feeling good about your book bingo, and I can't wait to think about what you read. Thanks so much for talking books with me today.

EMILY: Thank you.

ANNE: Hey, readers. I hope you enjoyed my conversation with Emily, and I'd love to hear what you think she should read next. Find Emily on Instagram at RevOnTheEdge, and find the full list of titles we talked about at whatshouldireadnextpodcast.com. We also have links to other things that came up in conversation, like that bingo card.

Keep up with our show by following along on Instagram. We're there @whatshouldireadnext.

And like we mentioned at the top of today's show, two fast and free ways to support our show are by joining our email list at whatshouldireadnextpodcast.com/newsletter, and please open those emails. It's a small thing. It might sound silly. It helps us so much. As does following or subscribing to our show wherever you get your podcasts: Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Overcast, wherever it is, follow or subscribe and download new episodes. It helps us so much. Thank you so much for taking a moment to check your settings and subscribe.

[01:08:22] Thanks to the people who make this show happen. What Should I Read Next? is created each week by executive producer Will Bogel, Media production specialist Holly Wielkoszewski, social media manager and editor Leigh Kramer, community coordinator Brigid Misselhorn, community manager Shannan Malone, and our whole team at What Should I Read Next? and Modern Mrs. Darcy HQ. Plus the audio whizzes at Studio D Podcast Production.

Readers, that's it for this episode. Thanks so much for listening. And as Rainer Maria Rilke said, "Ah, how good it is to be among people who are reading." Happy reading, everyone.

[00:00:00] KENT KRUEGER: I find it interesting, Anne, that this book is being called a historical novel. It takes place in the Great Depression, and I was born really not that long after the Great Depression ended.

ANNE BOGEL: They call the 1970s novel historical fiction, so.

KENT: Yeah, okay.

ANNE: We're all getting older, I guess.

Hey readers, I'm Anne Bogel, and this is What Should I Read Next?. Welcome to the show that's dedicated to answering the question that plagues every reader, what should I read next? We don't get bossy on this show. What we will do here is give you the information you need to choose your next read.

[00:00:43] In today's episode, we are sharing a meaty and satisfying author talk we enjoyed with author William Kent Krueger in Modern Mrs. Darcy Book Club.

First, I want to give you a timely update about what's happening in Book Club. We just wrapped our latest Annual Readers Weekend that we've hosted online each summer since 2020. Members, whether you're a current member or you sign up today, can go to our member site to snag our Digital Readers Weekend kit with all the resources you might need to create your own reader retreat.

Right now in Book Club we're looking ahead to our annual observance of Austen in August, followed by our fall book preview in mid-September. You might also notice us reference our Book Club community picks in this author chat today. Our Book Club community manager, Ginger, tells me that that 2020 community read of The Odyssey, on which Kent Krueger's book, This Tender Land, is based, is still one she thinks about all the time.

[00:01:41] Reading our official monthly selections together means there's always bound to be someone to talk to about books. Recently, members of our community have hosted community reads for The Once and Future King, summer reading guide selection, The Fine Art of Lying, Game Changers, Middlemarch, A Swim in the Pond in the Rain, and the one I'm participating in myself, Emily St. John Mandel's The Singer's Gun, and that is just to name a few.

We would love to have you join us for our live events in Book Club, like our author chats and seasonal book previews, as well as being part of our member community with its dedicated book forums, buddy reads, classes, and more happenings. We hope you will find your book people in our Book Club. Find out more and join us at modernmrsdarcy.com/club. That's modernmrsdarcy.com/club.

[00:02:27] Readers, today I'm excited to share a conversation with an author I've recommended three times here on the podcast, and one whose work has been mentioned many more times as well. He's beloved by many; that is William Kent Krueger, who you may know from his Cork O'Connor series or his standalones.

He's written five standalone novels, and today we're diving into one of them, This Tender Land. This happens in an author conversation that we originally held over in Modern Mrs. Darcy Book Club, and which we're sharing with you in full with one edit that you will hear for spoilery reasons today.

This conversation feels especially timely and has been on our minds and on our tongues, as This Tender Land was inspired by Homer's The Odyssey, a timeless story that many of you tell us you're looking forward to seeing on screen this summer in the new blockbuster adaptation film.

[00:03:17] A frequent thing I've heard repeated from you is you're a little scared, but also you're excited. But today's conversation and your enjoyment of it does not hang on whether you know anything at all about The Odyssey, or whether you've read anything by Kent Krueger yet.

Today we're exploring the power of a good story well told. We're exploring how authors make creative decisions, the backstories behind Krueger's beloved series and his decidedly different standalone novels, and we're even going to hear the story behind his favorite pair of boots.

Kent won us over in like the first 20 seconds when he joined us in Book Club. You are going to hear why. I am so excited to share this conversation with all of you today. Let's get to it.

Kent, thank you so much for joining us today.

KENT: A pleasure to be with you, Anne. Thanks for the invitation.

[00:04:07] ANNE: Well, it's a pleasure to welcome you to Book Club, everyone. We're so glad you could be here. We've known for a long time that we would love to discuss really pretty much anything with you. I know we have lots of fans of the Cork O'Connor series here. I think it was actually Janine, are you here today, who said, "Anne, based on what you love, you've got to read this series by my fellow Minnesotans." From there, I read Ordinary Grace and then This Tender Land. We really enjoyed reading your fiction, but also there's so much to talk about for Book Clubs. So thank you for coming to talk to us today about This Tender Land.

KENT: Again, my pleasure.

ANNE: Well, let's start by, if you could, give us a brief overview of the book. And y'all, we have a treat. Kent said that he is an experienced reader. I know you've heard some authors say that there's nothing they'd rather do less than read in a bookstore, but that is not Kent's background. And I'm really excited to hear you talk a little about the book and read us the prologue. I'm going to open mine and follow along.

[00:05:06] KENT: Thanks very much, Anne. This Tender Land, for those of you who haven't read it yet, takes place in the summer of 1932, deep in the Great Depression. It's the story of four orphans running from the law because they've committed a terrible crime, but for the right reason.

They know if they take to the roads to get away, they'll be caught rather quickly because a huge manhunt has been launched to capture them. They're afraid to ride the rails, as everybody was doing back in the Depression, because the railroads back then were patrolled by private cops called bulls. And the bulls had a reputation for being incredibly cruel, so the kids are afraid to ride the rails.

Instead, they decide to take to the rivers. They canoe a river called the Gilead to the Minnesota River. They canoe the Minnesota River to the Mississippi. And their plan is to canoe all the way down the Mississippi River to St. Louis, where they believe they have family and they'll be safe. I have always wanted to write an updated version of Huckleberry Finn. This is my Huckleberry Finn.

[00:06:09] I'm going to read the prologue to you for a couple of reasons. First of all, it's really short. It's just over a page. But the other reason I like to read this prologue to audiences is that it's simply maybe my favorite piece of my own writing ever. So this is how I bring readers into This Tender Land.

"In the beginning, after He labored over the heavens and the earth, the light and the dark, the land and sea and all living things that dwell therein, after He created man and woman, and before He rested, I believe God gave us one final gift. Lest we forget the divine source of all that beauty, He gave us stories. I am a storyteller. I live in a house in the shade of a sycamore tree on the banks of the Gilead River. My great-grandchildren, when they visit me here, call me old. "Old is a cliché," I tell them with mock disappointment, "a terrible trivializing and insult. I was born along with the sun and earth and moon and planets and all the stars. Every atom of my being was there at the very beginning." "You're a liar," they scowl, but playfully. "Not a liar. A storyteller," I remind them. "Then tell us a story," they plead. I need no goading. Stories are the sweet fruit of my existence and I share them gladly.

[00:07:39] The events I'm about to share with you began on the banks of the Gilead. Even if you grew up in the heartland, you may not remember these things. What happened in the summer of 1932 is most important to those who experienced it, and there are not many of us left. The Gilead is a lovely river lined with cottonwoods already ancient when I was a boy. Things were different then, not simpler or better, just different.

We didn't travel the way we do now and for most folks in Fremont County, Minnesota, the world was limited to the piece of it they could see before the horizon cut off the land. They wouldn't have understood any more than I did, that if you kill a man, you are changed forever. If that man comes back to life, you are transformed.

[00:08:32] I have witnessed this and other miracles with my own eyes. So among the many pieces of wisdom life has offered me over all these years is this: open yourself to every possibility, for there is nothing your heart can imagine that is not so.

The tale I'm going to tell is of a summer long ago, of killing and kidnapping and children pursued by demons of a thousand names. There will be courage in this story and cowardice, there will be love and betrayal, and of course, there will be hope. In the end, isn't that what every good story is about?"

ANNE: Thank you for that.

KENT: You're welcome.

ANNE: What copy are you reading from?

KENT: I'm reading from the advanced reader's copy, the ARC.

ANNE: Okay, is it marked up? Do you keep it handy? Is it dog-eared?

KENT: It is dog-eared. It's the one I always read from.

[00:09:31] ANNE: Okay. Do you keep it at your desk? Do you travel with it when we can do such things?

KENT: Yes, both of those.

ANNE: Okay, we will get the slew of audiobook questions we now have. Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but I have read in some interviews that the origin story for this book actually goes back to Ordinary Grace, a book that was different from your previous works and was quite successful. And I'd love to hear you elaborate a little on... you know, in your own words, what led to the publication and the writing, first of all, of this novel?

KENT: I think it's an interesting journey, and thank you for asking about it. So, I cut my teeth on the Cork O'Connor mystery series, which, you know, is in a genre. But about 10, 12 years ago, a story idea came to me that wasn't a part of the Cork O'Connor series. It wasn't suited to the Cork O'Connor series. And when I proposed that project to my publisher, they didn't want it. In fact, they called me out to New York City in kind of a panic and sat me down and said, "Kent, we only want Cork O'Connor stories from you."

[00:10:39] So I knew if I wrote this story, it was going to be a very risky proposition. Clearly, my publisher wasn't interested. I had no idea if any other publisher might want it. But it was a story that spoke to me in such a compelling way that I knew I had to write it.

So across the course of the next three years, every moment that wasn't devoted to a contractual obligation in my Cork O'Connor series, I spent composing the manuscript for Ordinary Grace. Now, even though my publisher had told me they didn't want it, when it was finished, I went ahead and sent it to my editor at Simon & Schuster. She fell in love with it. She said, "Of course, we're going to publish it." And they did.

And Ordinary Grace has just had this remarkable, really gratifying reception among critics and readers alike. It won tons of awards when it came out. It's been translated into a couple of dozen languages. So far it's sold nearly a million copies. And when my publisher saw how well that book was doing, boy, did they want another book just like it.

[00:11:31] So I signed a contract and spent the next two years writing what I believed would be the companion novel to Ordinary Grace. Now, that manuscript was contractually due to my publisher five years ago. Two months before that contractual deadline, I set up a meeting in Chicago to talk with my agent about revisions to the work because there were problems with it. I knew it. She knew it.

Two days before we met, I sent her a note saying, "When we get together, I don't want to talk about how we revise this piece. I want to talk about how we keep it from being published." Because it wasn't the story I'd imagined it would be. I didn't know how to make it that story. And frankly, my heart was no longer in it. It turns out I have a very understanding publisher. They said, "Fine, you don't have to give us this manuscript, but you still owe us a companion novel."

So here's the deal, Anne. The expectations for that follow-up novel were enormous. And the whole time I was trying to write the story, I just felt crushed by the weight of all those expectations. And the truth is, when I was writing that manuscript, what I was trying to do was, you know, meet everybody else's expectations instead of writing the story that spoke to me from my heart.

[00:12:45] But when that weight got lifted off my shoulders, and I felt free again, I saw so very clearly the story I should have been writing. And honestly, it was a story I've been wanting to write since I was 11 years old. When I was 11 years old, in the fifth grade, toward the end of that year, our teacher read to the class out loud, The Adventures of Tom Sawyer. He did it by reading half an hour every day after lunch. And I loved that book.

I mean, here was this kid who was just like me, and he's having these great adventures on the Mississippi River. And after that, of course, I had to read Adventures of Huckleberry Finn, which I also loved. And so across my whole career as a writer, I have wanted to write a story in which I could pay homage to Mark Twain. And that is a major part of the inspiration for This Tender Land.

[00:13:36] ANNE: We're so glad that you returned to Huck Finn. Now, with both Ordinary Grace and This Tender Land, you have a character looking back over time, telling us a story that we know is complete. But as readers, we don't know how we're going to get from here to there. And when you have a character looking back over the decades, like your narrators have in Ordinary Grace and This Tender Land, you have this wistful, reflective feel to it that really suits these books... Well, we'll focus on This Tender Land, although we have a pitch for Ordinary Grace, making a note. It really suits the story well. How did you know that that was the way the story needed to be told? How did you decide on that?

KENT: I didn't at first. I tried to write the story a couple of times during my career, and I was never able to sink my teeth into it. And the reason was that I could never see the structure for the story. I knew it was going to be some kids on the river, what it was going to be set, what they were doing on the river, where they were coming from, where they were going. I knew the Mississippi would be involved. But beyond that, I really didn't know anything.

[00:14:53] And then when I came out from that dark period of that manuscript that I was disappointed in, I saw the structure for the Huck Finn story. And it was a structure that was inspired by another book I loved as a kid. I have to tell you this. My father was a high school English teacher, and so he always had me reading Great Literature instead of the stuff that most kids were reading, I'm sure.

But I read so many of the epic, mythic journeys when I was a kid. One of those journeys that was a favorite of mine was the Odyssey. I loved Homer's Odyssey as a kid. Not so much the Iliad, but I love the Odyssey, the story of a guy making his way back from Troy to Ithaca, and having all of these incredible adventures along the way.

So when I came out of that dark period, I thought, "I'm going to write the Huck Finn story and I'm going to use the structure of the Odyssey to create it." These kids are going to experience many of the same kinds of things that Odysseus experienced on his long journey from Troy back to Ithaca. I didn't know which of the many experiences I would use, but these kids' journey would mirror that of Odysseus, which gave me the structure.

[00:16:08] But this story really revealed itself to me pretty much as I was going down the river with the kids. Which adventures would happen, I sort of decided on after I had completed one section of the book. So where are they going next? Why are they going there? What are they supposed to learn there? I discovered, basically as the reader discovers it, going through the story as it is.

And I have to tell you that it's a very different process than I follow from my Cork O'Connor series stories, which I think through significantly before I ever set pen to paper or fingers to the keyboard today. I wanted this story to be different, to come to me differently. I wanted it to feel organic, which it did. And it was an extraordinary creative experience for me as a result.

[00:16:55] ANNE: Many readers really enjoyed noticing the similarities. And there's a reason that I'm not asking Kent this, though you're sitting right here, but sharing an insightful comment from a fellow book clubber, I want you to know that even to someone who's not behind the scenes of this process, the way you're drawing on the Odyssey was apparent. You can decide if you want to jump in and say, "Yes, yes, that's right, that's right," or, "Not exactly."

But let me read Nicole's comment. She wrote in our forum, so you can go see this: "I was surprised at how many characters from the books, that's This Tender Land and the Odyssey, overlapped. It's kind of brilliant. One-Eye Jack is obviously the Cyclops; Aunt Julia is Penelope with her problematic suitors. I think that maybe Sister Eve represents the sirens with her beautiful voice that causes the vagabonds to abandon their ship for a while. Also, this place where they discovered the skeleton and learn how many Native Americans were murdered here, much like the sailors upon the rocks. And the people in the flats could be the lotus eaters, as only Odie wants to leave this group of people who nourish the vagabonds with the very little they have. Maybeth seems like Calypso in that Odie fell for her and almost stayed with her family. Finally, it feels like none of the Odyssey monsters are terrible enough to be the Black Witch, but I think she may be Circe, beautiful and powerful with the ability to turn men or students into animals. Odysseus only escapes her by remaining immune to her tricks and enchantments and with help from Athena. Athena guides Odysseus and changes his outcomes when she can. This can only be Emmy, right?"

[00:18:21] KENT: Well, this is a brilliant dissection, and I love it. And it's almost dead on except for one thing. For me, Sister Eve is Circe. Sister Eve right at the very beginning tames the beast in men. She has what appear to be the powers of a sorceress. And we're never quite sure, at least in the beginning, of her intentions toward Odie and his companions. So aside from that, everything else is absolutely dead on. Bravo!

ANNE: A-plus, Nicole. Now, Kent, I'm wondering, so many readers read your book, and then we have a group reading through Emily Wilson's translation of the Odyssey right now together. And we may have read Homer once in high school but haven't touched it since. And we don't have the story internalized in the way that I suspect you might.

[00:19:20] KENT: You know, that doesn't matter. When I was writing it, and I was using the Odyssey to give me a structure for the story, I thought, "This is going to go over the head of most readers probably." And that didn't matter to me. What mattered to me was that I created, in the Great Depression era, a story that would ring true for readers. And even if they didn't understand the parallels I was drawing, that wouldn't matter. They don't need to know the parallels with the Odyssey in order to enjoy the story. And I hope they pick up on the themes that I was trying to weave throughout the narrative.

ANNE: Something that we've talked about here in Book Club before that I firmly believe is that when a novel has deep structure and symbolism, even if the reader doesn't consciously notice, it lends a heft and weight to the story that they cannot help but feel. Really what I meant, because I absolutely agree with what you're saying, is, is this a story that has lived in your bones for a long time?

[00:20:25] KENT: Oh, yeah, absolutely. It has. In one form or another, bits and pieces of it. This was the coalescing of lots of ideas I've had from the past. Lots of scenes that I've tried to write earlier on. Very early on in my career, I wrote a short story, a failed short story, about a couple of kids who stumble onto an evangelical revival group who work with snakes. The short story didn't work out, but I resurrected it for the visit with the Sword of Beauty and Healing Crusade. Other bits and pieces of it have been with me for a very long time. And just the whole idea of a Huck Finn-like character has haunted my imagination forever.

ANNE: Wherein lies the appeal of young Huck Finn on a journey down the river? What stirs the imagination for you in that?

[00:21:16] KENT: Well, for me personally, Huck Finn and my Odie represent the kind of kid I wish I'd been. They're both rebellious. They're both adventurous. They're both resourceful. They're both, in their way, fiercely loyal. And I was none of those things when I was a kid. You know, I was the goody two-shoes.

And so when I thought about writing a revisionist Huck Finn, I thought, "The character I create is the character I'm going to have a lot of fun with. And he's going to do the kinds of things I always wished I had done as a kid." That said, I spent a lot of time on rivers when I was a kid, probably doing things that my parents, had they known about it, would have thrown up their hands in terror, you know?

ANNE: This reminds me of some things you referenced in the author's note, which readers, we say this every time we read a historical novel, do not miss the author's note. I'm trying to remember, is it in the audio version, Kent? Do you know?

[00:22:15] KENT: I believe it is. I believe everything that's in the original work is also in the audio version. And then there's additional content in the audio version.

ANNE: Okay. Because they're not always in the audio version and you'll be rewarded if you track down a copy of the author's note whenever you read a historical novel. But in addition to referencing some of your inspirations for characters, which I'd love to get to in a minute, you talked about your research process, including spending time on the river.

KENT: Oh yeah.

ANNE: Did you always know that would be important to the story?

KENT: I did. I did. I've never written a story about a place I haven't visited myself. And although I write a lot of murder mysteries and have never committed a murder myself, I try to experience as much of the rest of what happens in the book as I can. So when I knew these kids were going to be on a river journey and I had a sense of the rivers I wanted them to be on, I kayaked or canoed those stretches of the river that the kids canoe.

[00:23:14] So I kayaked the stretch of the Minnesota the kids are on and my wife and I canoed the stretch of the Mississippi River that the kids actually canoe. So, yeah, I wanted to get a feel for what it's like to be on these rivers. What would the kids see? What kind of, you know, fears might they have?

As we were talking earlier before we came live, yeah, I was kind of scared when I was out there on the river. So I bought myself a kayak, an inflatable kayak, to do the river work with, and I had only been in the kayak once before I set it on the Minnesota River.

And so I'm in this kayak that's a little unknown to me and it's tipping a little more than the manufacturer guaranteed. And I've got my life vest on... and I have never been on the Minnesota. I've done a number of other rivers, never been on the Minnesota, which is kind of a silty river. So you can't really, generally speaking, see the bottom. I know there are deep holes there. The current's pretty swift because this was during a kind of a flooded period in Southern Minnesota. And I'm thinking, "Oh God, if I go over, what's going to happen? Well, I've got my vest on, but you know there are whirlpools in this river that can suck you down? And maybe there's quicksand here. God only knows what's... you know, snags under there. So as I'm thinking this, I'm thinking, "Okay, what happened?" I looked over the side of the kayak and the bottom was about two feet below me. Okay. I just get out and walk.

[00:24:47] But on the Mississippi River, the day that my wife and I canoed the Mississippi, the barge traffic was enormous. And the wakes from those enormous vessels and the barges that they're pushing were just huge. And a couple of times we really were afraid we were going to get swamped.

ANNE: At what point in the writing process did you go on the river?

KENT: Pretty much after I had completed the first draft of the manuscript, then I went back and was doing a lot of research to get the central details correct. Make sure that what I had... I had already traveled this territory in my car and stopped and got out, took photographs of all the places where things occurred, but I needed to get onto the river as that final piece of it. So it was after the first draft was finished.

ANNE: That's fascinating. Now I could spot Aimee Semple McPherson's influence in the manuscript, but you also referenced in the author's note a fictional character that I was unfamiliar with that really influenced the way you shaped her character. Would you tell us a little bit about both women?

[00:25:54] KENT: In the early part of the 20th century, there was a great revival, tent revival movement, with a lot of miracle healing that went along with it. And these shows were popular across the entire country. So Billy Sunday, maybe as a name, some readers are familiar with, Aimee Semple McPherson, another slightly later revivalist. And these were people who drew hundreds of thousands of followers to their faith healings, to their preaching of the gospel, of their very evangelical preaching of the gospel.

But by the time of the Great Depression, that movement had died out across most of the country, with the exception of the South and the Midwest, where these shows were still quite popular. So I did a lot of reading of Aimee Semple McPherson and her belief in having been tapped by God. And she was an interesting woman, but I found a more complex and really compelling character in Sinclair Lewis, in his novel, Elmer Gantry.

[00:26:57] For those who haven't read Elmer Gantry, you've forgotten it, during a portion of Elmer Gantry's career, he hooks up with a revivalist named Sharon Falconer, who is definitely a woman of the world, that's very clear, but she is also a woman who firmly, devoutly believes that God has called her to preach a gospel of love to the masses. And so I thought, "What an interesting character she would be." And so more than Aimee Semple McPherson, even, I used Sharon Falconer as kind of a template for Sister Eve. But Sister Eve grew into her own character, with her own set of remarkable talents.

ANNE: I love how, when we start digging into this book, we can't do it without talking about the power of story. There are stories woven through the books, there are stories to you that served as inspiration. In your prologue, Odie is telling us that story is... well, I was going to say story is everything. You probably know how he says it in his own words in like sentence two. Did you say something?

[00:28:04] KENT: Lest we forget the divine source of all that beauty, He gave us stories.

ANNE: Very good. I was wondering at first. I really thought you might have been reciting and not reading your prologue.

KENT: Well, I have read it so many times, I could probably do it.

ANNE: Do it with your eyes closed. He gave us stories. In this book, you're addressing issues that go to the heart of what it means to be human and many of the core struggles of human nature through the lens of story, and in your own words, instead of Odie's, though I wonder how much they might overlap, Kent. I'd love to hear you discuss a little bit why it matters to discuss these things, to tell stories instead of talking about topics.

[00:28:49] KENT: For me, stories can do so much more than entertain. Stories can enlighten us. They can encourage us. They can inspire us. And maybe the most important thing that stories can do for us is they give us hope. So when I write a story, one of the things that I really try to do is set out to write a story that ultimately is going to be a story of hope. Because honestly, when I read a piece of fiction, when I get to the end, I want to feel as if I've been on a journey. And in my own understanding of the world, and my own understanding of myself, I'm in a different place than I was when I began that story.

So I try to do everything with my stories that I think a story has the potential of doing. They are so important to who we are. You know, across countless millennia, stories have told us who we are as a people. They have given us instructions on how we're supposed to behave, or even how we're supposed to do our daily things in life. Stories are, I think, every bit as important to us as breathing. There you go.

[00:30:05] ANNE: There is so much we could discuss: poverty, the Great Depression, faith, hope, and children in peril in those reform schools. But I just want to focus on one because Michelle, in advance of today's talk, asked a really nice question, nice meaning thoughtful, and I'd love to hear what you said.

Her question was rooted in... Well, here, I'll just read this in her own words. She says, "Why does an author who obviously cares deeply for Native communities and culture choose to silence them here? Is it perhaps to reflect the way Native communities were and are silenced to show the loss when assimilation of tribal cultures into the American culture is completed?"

Now, it's interesting. She's talking about themes that I believe are visible not only in This Tender Land, but in your murder mysteries as well, which, perhaps surprisingly to some readers, also have that undercurrent of hope and do address these topics that matter so much through the lens of story. I know this is just one facet of a substantial novel, but I'd love to hear you reflect on that.

[00:31:10] KENT: Sure, Mose is mute. Mose, one of the vagabonds, the Native kid on the journey, is mute. And he's mute because he represents something much larger than himself. He represents an entire culture that had no voice. And that has always been the situa... continues to be really the situation for so many minority cultures in our country, and particularly the indigenous people.

For more than 100 years, from the late 1800s until 1978, when the National Indian Child Welfare Act was passed, if the government came to your home and you were Native American and said, "We want to take your child away to a government boarding school," you had no recourse. You could not prevent them from doing this. You had no voice in the matter.

[00:32:12] So one of the things that I wanted to talk about in This Tender Land was that lack of voice, at least in the beginning of Mose's journey. But for those of you who have read the story, you know across the course of the journey, all of the children discover things about themselves. They're all seeking something different, and they all end up... Well, I don't want to give it away.

ANNE: Oh, but there's that great scene. There's that great scene with... yeah.

KENT: Mose, as he travels across this epic summer for him, begins to discover who he is, discover the importance of where he has come from, the importance of his people, of his culture. And though he has no voice, he begins to understand how to speak for his people, and by the end of the story, he has a powerful voice for his people.

[00:33:06] ANNE: This reminds me of a much more lighthearted question from Shannan. Do you know sign language? Do you play the harmonica? What was your inspiration for using both in this story?

KENT: I do not know sign nor do I play the harmonica. But I did a good deal of research in terms of sign language so that I could make it as realistic as possible. Odie, in my early thinking, I knew Odie was going to play two important roles on this journey. He was going to be the guy who had to hold everybody together and keep them focused on moving forward, as Odysseus did with his crew while he had a crew, and he was going to be the guy who had to keep their spirits lifted up when dark things happened and threatened to drag them all down.

And he was going to do it in two ways. I knew he was going to be a storyteller, 'because boy, I was looking forward to using Odie to talk about so many of the things that I think are important as a storyteller. But I knew he was going to use music then as the way to lift up the spirits of his crew, his group, the other vagabonds.

[00:34:14] And when I thought, "Okay, how is he going to do this with music? He's on a river. They're traveling. You know, you can't bring a tuba along on their river journey. So what's he going to play?" And I thought, "Well, of course, a harmonica," because it's so easy to carry and it's so iconically American. And the tunes that fit a harmonica are just... they go way back in our awareness as a culture here in the States. So I thought, "Okay, he's going to play the harmonica." I had no idea about the harmonica. I had to talk to some of my friends who do, in fact, play harmonicas to get an idea of what that would be like and to help me choose some tunes that would be appropriate for the harmonica. So I had a lot of fun in that.

I actually believed I was going to learn at least how to play Shenandoah on the harmonica so that I could do that when I did book events. Didn't happen. I'm pretty lazy.

ANNE: Oh, that would've been amazing at book events.

KENT: I thought so too.

[00:35:15] ANNE: Well, it's a good thing you're such a good reader. If I had to choose, I'd rather hear you read the prologue.

KENT: Well, thank you.

ANNE: Now, I have resisted asking you about your in-depth research process because you talk about it in the author's note, but I mean, we're together, and I can't resist. You read a ton of information to give the story that authentic feel and texture that makes us feel like these are real people, this happened, we're right there with them.

And I would love to hear... Here's the thing about the reading experience. You don't appreciate all the ways the author got it right. You just feel that it is so, until they get something wrong, and then it jumps right out at you. But this story feels so right. And I know that's not just luck or good writing, but also painstaking research. Would you tell us a little bit about your journey into memoir, microfiche, and whatever else you touched in the process?

[00:36:11] KENT: Sure. You know, I find it interesting, Anne, that this book is being called an historical novel. Takes place in the Great Depression, and I was born really not that long after the Great Depression ended.

ANNE: Well, they call the 1970s novel historical fiction, so.

KENT: Yeah, okay.

ANNE: We're all getting older, I guess. What do you call it?

KENT: I grew up on stories that my folks told of surviving the Depression. My father was from Oklahoma, and I grew up on his stories during the Dust Bowl years of watching it rain mud from the sky and having to go out and scavenge greens from vacant lots and along railroad tracks to supplement their meals. My mother was born in North Dakota and was farmed out at four years of age to a distant relative because her family simply couldn't feed all of the mouths that they had to feed at that point.

[00:37:00] So the Depression wasn't like history to me. It was all of these great stories that my parents told. But I hadn't lived during that period of time, and I knew to get the factual underpinnings correct. We are blessed here in St. Paul to have a great historical resource in our midst. We have the Minnesota History Center here. Inside the Minnesota History Center is a section called the Gale Family Library, which is simply an archive of all of the newspapers ever published in Minnesota.

So I spent hours and hours poring over microfilmed newspapers from back in the... particularly the summer of 1932, to know what the kids would've been aware of in that time. What were people conscious of? What were the important events of the day? What were the fashions like? What did things cost? What kinds of foods were people eating? All of that. So that when I wrote the story, I didn't want to hit the reader over the head with all of the research I'd done. I needed to make sure it integrated in just a very matter-of-fact way in terms of all of the activities that were going on in the story. So I hope I accomplished that.

[00:38:09] Here's one of the interesting things I learned. I learned a lot of interesting things, but here's one of the really interesting things. Back in the Great Depression, people didn't have a lot of money to buy clothes, so women took to using flour sacks and feed sacks to create clothing, their dresses, they would make shirts out of them. And when all of these companies became aware of that, they began putting out flour and feed and other things in patterns so that people, when they created this clothing from it, would... It would look not like sacks. It was just such really a kind of a gracious offering to the people out there who were in need, I thought.

ANNE: Now we're shifting to reader questions, lest I get in lots of trouble. Here's an interesting one that hadn't occurred to me from Mary Ellen. "Do you know," or I'm going to add, do you wonder, "if Mark Twain was thinking about the Odyssey when he wrote?"

[00:39:02] KENT: God only knows what Mark Twain was ever thinking. That guy was brilliant and so off the wall, you could just never predict where His profound wit and wisdom is going to take you as a reader. I have no idea if that was on His mind. I have more a Shakespearean feel when I read Huck Finn rather than a Homer feel, in all honesty.

ANNE: Janine says, "As a fellow Minnesotan, I'm curious, what drew you to focus on this aspect of Minnesota history, the Native American boarding schools?"

KENT: I knew when I discovered the structure of the book, really saw the structure, that these kids had to be running away from essentially a war zone as Odysseus was leaving the war zone behind him in Troy, and I wanted them to be running from a horrific environment. And because I'd been working with the Native community now for more than two decades, I've been aware for a very long time of the horrific situation of the Native American boarding schools, and I couldn't imagine a more horrific environment for the kids to have to flee from than that.

[00:40:17] So I decided, okay, I'm going to do this, but I'm also going to do this because it's a situation most White folks are clueless about, never even heard about. And I thought, well, maybe this might be a way that I can raise a little bit of consciousness at the same time.

ANNE: Moke asks, "Did the names of characters and places have particular significance? Gilead and Moses are more obvious biblical references, but were there others, and why did you choose them?"

KENT: God only knows. I am always asked about the names of my characters, and honest to God, sometimes I flounder around a long time before I settle on a great name. I knew Odie's name, Odysseus. I had no idea what his last name was going to be or really what his history was going to be until I began to create him and I saw this rebellious Irish streak in him, and I thought, "Okay, I'm going to make him Irish, of Irish ancestry," and then worked on a number of names until O'Banion felt right.

[00:41:27] Albert, I needed a very stiff name for an older brother who's kind of stiff in a lot of his behavior. Moses, I loved the Biblical reference because he's a kid who's found sort of in the same way that Moses is found, among the reeds. And Washington just because... Well, God, I can't even remember why I chose Washington as the superintendent's, you know, iconic figure from American history. Emmy was always Emmy, for whatever reason. Her name came to me right away with the character.

Sister Eve, she came to me very early on as Eve, another Biblical reference. The Gilead I chose because obviously there's a balm in Gilead. These kids start off on the Gilead on their journey, and it's a river that treats them kindly in the beginning, as they need to be treated after the horrific experiences they've had. And it treats them kindly until they join the Minnesota River and a lot of things start to happen there. Beyond that, I don't know what to say.

[00:42:33] ANNE: Well, I asked how do you choose them. You said, "God only knows." My first question was the God of the tornado or the other God? Which leads us to talk to us about the title.

KENT: This Tender Land, I love that title. It came to me as I was driving across southern Minnesota one day, and I happened to be listening to our classical music station here. An absolutely gorgeous piece of music that I was completely unfamiliar with came on, and as I listened to it, I was just swept up and swept away. And when it finished, the announcer said, "You've just been listening to an excerpt of the only opera Aaron Copland ever composed called," and I thought he said This Tender Land. The actual title of the opera is The Tender Land, but I heard, "This Tender Land," and I thought, "Oh, God, there it is. That's the title." And I have always just loved what that title suggests.

[00:43:31] ANNE: Here's a question that never occurred to me from Danny: "Were the Red Wing boots inspired by Hermes the messenger?"

KENT: No. But now that you mention it, I wish they had been. No, they were inspired by my love of Red Wing boots. I was married in a pair of Red Wing boots that I picked up in a used clothing store actually, along with a suit that I picked up at a used clothing store. I was married back in the days of Love Child, of the flower child days, and so we didn't have the kinds of big festive weddings that they have now. Ours was full of daisies that we gave to everybody, and my wife made her dress and I bought mine at a secondhand store. So Red Wing boots have been deep in my heart.

I worked construction for many, many years as a young man. I always wore Red Wing boots because honest to God, they were the best boots I thought you could buy. When I moved to Minnesota, Red Wing boots are manufactured here, so I had to give Odie and the other boys on the journey their own pair of Red Wing boots.

[00:44:37] ANNE: Now I'm about to ask Kent a question from about the halfway mark in the novel. Kent, you can answer this however you'd like. Readers, I'm about to ask Kent a question about setup and payoff, and my question itself hints at a spoiler, so we wanted to cut it here. But we did want you to be able to hear Kent's spoiler-free answer. It's coming up.

I found that thread to be so satisfying and well-placed without feeling overly clever, which makes me wonder...

KENT: Or manipulative.

ANNE: Yes. Oh, because there's... Well, okay. No, with disregard for whether this is an accurate superlative, there is nothing worse than feeling like the author is just messing with you, so...

KENT: Yeah.

ANNE: Or thinks they're cleverer than you. But I just really love the way that you laid that thread. Which makes me wonder, what part or parts of this story did you find just satisfying to write?

[00:45:40] KENT: That was one of them. That was certainly one of them. You know, as a mystery writer, one of the things that I've learned is the joy of suspense for a reader. I don't care if you're trying to write a thriller or straightforward literature, suspense is really what it's all about, creating a sense in the reader that they want to turn the next page to find out what happens.

And so as I was writing that section of the novel, I was creating characters, Sister Eve, Sid, that raised a lot of suspicion in a reader's mind, a suspenseful wonderment about who these people are and where are they going with this story, and how much should I trust them? So as a writer of suspense, I just reveled in that section.

ANNE: I'm glad you did, because I found it extremely satisfying to read. And that's interesting that the things you learned writing mysteries work so well in this book as well. Okay, we're not going to chase that thread because we just have a few more for you. First, tell us about Ordinary Grace, Kent.

[00:46:47] KENT: Ordinary Grace is set in the summer of 1961 in a small town deep in the very beautiful Minnesota River Valley, the same territory that the kids travel in This Tender Land. It's the story of a Methodist minister whose beloved child is murdered. That's the compelling mystery component. But at heart, it's really the story of what that terrible tragedy does to this man's faith, his family, and ultimately the entire fabric of this small town in which he lives.

For anybody who's read my Cork O'Connor novels, they're going to see an undercurrent in many of those stories that deals with the spiritual journey. It's a situation that comes quite naturally for the protagonist in those stories, Cork O'Connor, because he's a man of mixed heritage. He's part Irish American, and he's part Ojibwe Anishinaabe. So he's a man with a foot in two different spiritual traditions: his White Catholicism, he's Irish Catholic, and his Ojibwe spirituality.

[00:47:47] So very often in those stories, he's trying to figure out where his unique spiritual path lies. And that's been an issue for me my whole life. I wrote This Tender Land in large measure because I wanted to explore more deeply the question of the importance of the spiritual journey that I believe we're all on, whether we embrace that or not. Until I wrote This Tender Land, it was far and away my favorite piece of my own writing. I thought I would never write another book as meaningful to me as that one was, and then I wrote This Tender Land.

ANNE: Now, you can choose how to answer this, knowing that some readers have said, "Oop, I just bought Iron Lake. It's going to be here on Saturday." And some readers are waiting with bated breath for the next Cork O'Connor novel. But the question is, what's next for Cork?

KENT: I finished the first draft and have sent it off to my agent for her review of number 18 in the Cork O'Connor series. It's a novel called Lightning Strike, and it's actually a prequel to the series.

ANNE: Oh.

[00:48:50] KENT: It takes place when Cork is 12 or 13 years old. For anybody who knows my series, they know that Cork O'Connor was sheriff of the fictional Tamarack County when he was an adult. As a child, as a young man, his father was sheriff of Tamarack County before him, and his father was killed in the line of duty when Cork was an adolescent. Lightning Strike takes Cork in that summer before his father is killed. And what it's allowing me to do is explore the relationship that Cork had with his father, the relationship that Cork had with his mother, the relationship his parents had with each other, all these important relationships that helped shape Cork into the man who occupies center place in the series. I have just enjoyed tremendously going back in Cork's life and creating him as a young man.

ANNE: Now, you might have just answered my final question as well, but at the beginning, before we welcomed everybody into the room, Kent, you and I were discussing your writing and what you're doing right now, but we didn't discuss what you are writing right now. What are you working on?

[00:49:54] KENT: Two novelettes. Lightning Strike won't be... Typically, I would have a novel released this fall. I have a novel pretty much released every single fall, but the pandemic has changed the thinking of many publishers, mine included, and they are delaying the release of a lot of their books. My novel now has been postponed for release until the fall of 2021. But I'd like to try to bring something out in the interim period, so I'm putting together two novelettes, and I'm just enjoying the hell out of that experience. So that's what I'm at work on right now.

ANNE: Have you done the short form before?

KENT: I never have. I'm finding it an interesting exercise, really. Very creative, interesting exercise.

ANNE: So for readers who don't know, how would you describe what a novelette is?

KENT: It's much longer than a short story, much shorter than a novel. So these are running about 125 pages apiece.

ANNE: Are they independent or characters that we may know?

[00:50:54] KENT: No, they're completely independent, very different timeframes. One takes place during the massive flooding of the Mississippi River that took place in 1928 and 1929. It's the story of some convicts who are impressed into labor helping save some people who are trapped by the flood. And the second novel takes place in 1980. It's the story of a man and his wife traveling across the country, retracing their honeymoon at the very end of their lives together. A very poignant story.

ANNE: Oh, Kent, I never asked you about your audiobook. The first time I read This Tender Land, I read it on audio. Scott Brick was wonderful, and I heard-

KENT: Oh, good.

ANNE: ...that you had a good amount of input into... That you felt strongly about how the book would sound to listeners, which we are grateful for.

[00:51:45] KENT: Yeah. And for the very first time, I had a hand in helping select the reader for this. We had three essentially auditions, and both my agent and I liked Scott Brick the best. And I think he's just done an outstanding job with the reading of This Tender Land.

ANNE: Did your publisher ask you this time, or did you stand up and say, "Let me into that process"? I'm just interested in what it was about this story that made that change.

KENT: Well, I know what I asked of my audio publisher was I want a different voice for this than we used for Cork O'Connor, and I think I'd like even a different voice than we used for Ordinary Grace, because I don't want any of them to sound like the others. They all need to stand alone. And my audio publisher said, "Fine, so let's take a look at what our options might be." And I just really appreciated being brought in on that process. You know, really the writer is kind of the lowest guy on the totem pole in most of the publishing process.

[00:52:50] ANNE: Well, I'm glad that you're pleased with the results, because many of us certainly were as well. Kent, this has been a pleasure. Thank you so much for taking the time to discuss your work with us.

KENT: Well, I have had a delightful morning with you. Thank you so much, Anne, for the invitation.

ANNE: We hope that we can hear from you again, and we really hope that we can catch you in person sometime. A favorite bookstore in your area?

KENT: Every mystery writer in my area who launches a novel launches it at a marvelous independent mystery bookstore called Once Upon a Crime in Minneapolis. So a shout-out to Once Upon a Crime.

ANNE: That many of us know from afar, if not in person. Well, I hope I get to see it myself and you one day. Thank you again.

KENT: I hope so too.

[00:53:39] ANNE: Hey, readers. I hope you enjoyed listening in on our conversation with William Kent Krueger. Find the full list of titles we talked about at whatshouldireadnextpodcast.com. And if you'd like more conversations like you heard today, even to join us live and ask the authors questions yourself, come and join us at modernmrsdarcy.com/club.

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[00:54:42] Thanks to the people who make this show happen. What Should I Read Next? is created each week by executive producer Will Bogel, Media production specialist Holly Wielkoszewski, social media manager and editor Leigh Kramer, community coordinator Brigid Misselhorn, community manager Shannan Malone, and our whole team at What Should I Read Next? and Modern Mrs. Darcy HQ. Plus the audio whizzes at Studio D Podcast Production.

Thank you to our book club community manager, Ginger Horton, for bringing this particular episode together this week and for hosting the initial conversation with me.

Readers, that's it for this episode. Thanks so much for listening. And as Rainer Maria Rilke said, "Ah, how good it is to be among people who are reading." Happy reading, everyone.