[00:00:00] ANNE BOGEL: You don't have to be sad about it.

DEBBIE DAY: I am sad. I feel like-

ANNE: This is just data.

DEBBIE: I feel like I brought this half-baked theory, and now I'm expecting you to do all the research and figure it out, so. Sorry.

ANNE: No, this is what we do here.

Hey readers, I'm Anne Bogel, and this is What Should I Read Next?. Welcome to the show that's dedicated to answering the question that plagues every reader, what should I read next? We don't get bossy on this show. What we will do here is give you the information you need to choose your next read. Every week we'll talk all things books and reading, and do a little literary matchmaking with one guest.

[00:00:48] Readers, first about Fall Book Preview and our new for 2026 cute little useful lookbook. We have been thrilled to hear from so many of you that you are really loving our Fall Book Preview lookbook. It's smaller format this year. It's 6x9. It's inky, hand-stamped, kind of zine-inspired, and it invites you to dig into my selections for this season's most anticipated books, and some of our team picks, too. But since it's analog, you get to mark it up, take it anywhere, dog-ear it if you want, and refer to it all the time, like for months or years to come.

Our 2026 lookbook stands alone more than it ever has before. You can use it independently of Unboxing Easy. So whether you've already experienced Unboxing, are still making plans to do so, or don't plan to join in Unboxing at all, this year's lookbook is for you.

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[00:02:04] Readers, today's guest, Debbie Day, is joining me from the Nashville area, where she is enjoying settling into retirement and empty nesting. And she's loving having more time for travel, dancing, cooking, spending time with friends and family, and of course, reading, including with the new book club that she helped create.

Debbie is grateful that now she's able to better, and especially more leisurely, explore what makes a book really click for her as a reader. She's joining me to share what she's learned so far, especially as she's learned things she didn't expect to discover. And she's looking for new titles that might deliver the reading experiences that she now knows she would like to have more often.

This extra time to reflect on her reading life has led Debbie to discover an unexpected common thread among her favorite books, and that is an interesting structure. Now that she's homed in on this element, Debbie is on the hunt for more such books, but she's not sure where to go look for them. As a structure nerd myself, you know I have ideas for Debbie, and I can't wait to talk about all of it with her today.

[00:03:12] Readers, first a note. Every once in a while, we get some audio gremlins during a recording, and today is one of those days. You'll hear a few small disruptions, especially in the first few minutes, but we think they won't detract too much from your listening enjoyment. Thanks for listening. Let's get to it.

Debbie, welcome to the show.

DEBBIE: Hi. Thank you so much for having me.

ANNE: All right.

DEBBIE: Super excited.

ANNE: Thank you for being here. When I saw your submission, I thought, "Ooh." And when our team members saw your submission, they went, "Anne, you’ve got to look at what Debbie's looking for right now." So thanks for bringing it to the show.

DEBBIE: Absolutely.

ANNE: Debbie, we'd love to start by just giving our readers a glimpse of who you are. Could you tell us a little about yourself?

DEBBIE: Sure, yeah. I am calling in from just south of Nashville. I live in a new community, actually. My husband and I moved here recently. We're pretty excited about it because it's kind of specifically designed for community, so lots of things to get involved with and people to meet and friends to make, so we're excited for that.

[00:04:21] I retired shortly ago. I was a preschool director for years and years, but as my children are flying, leaving the nest, just kind of decided to take this time to just spend with my husband and travel and do fun things.

ANNE: Well, that sounds lovely.

DEBBIE: Yeah.

ANNE: Now, Debbie, would you tell us about your reading life?

[00:04:50] DEBBIE: Sure. Obviously, lifelong reader, just one of those people that just obsesses over books. Always remember just hankering to go to the library. I had a kind of a mail order... a book subscription that I just remember just anxiously waiting for it to arrive every month. And then enter high school and college, and the reading for pleasure definitely dropped off, like I've heard many listeners or many of your guests say.

Then after college, you know, raising a family, all that good stuff, I got involved in a book club, got invited to a book club, and that really brought me back to reading again, which has been wonderful. I'm glad to have it back. It's a great hobby. Enjoy it. And love to talk about books, and was able to, in the community that we moved into, start a new book club. So that's been really fun.

[00:05:59] ANNE: I'm glad to hear it. Now, Debbie, you mentioned that you have listened to this show for a long time. I'm curious to hear what brings you to What Should I Read Next? in this season, in this role, in What Should I Read Next?

DEBBIE: Sure. As I have more time being retired, have more time not only to read, but to think about my reading life, I've really been trying to figure out what it is that makes a book just work for me. You know, for years and years, I've always... I love cooking, I love food and travel, love learning lots of nerdy things about all that. So I kind of always assumed that all my favorite books somehow tied into food or wine or travel.

And then kind of as I've just been exploring it more, I feel like that's a piece of it, but not necessarily the whole picture. So one of my top three books, I was reading it recently and realized it had nothing to do with food or cooking, and it just... There was something about it that spoke to me, and I kind of realized, I think it might be an interesting structure or an interesting format for a book that draws me in.

[00:07:23] So I really would love some help, A, figuring out if that's accurate, like, if that is truly what's drawing me to books, and then, B, helping explore that more. Like, where do I find books like that? I'm open to exploring new genres that kind of maybe meet that criteria. So, yeah, I need your help.

ANNE: That is an interesting shift between thinking you may be interested in books that are food, wine-related to interesting structures. I love a book with an interesting structure, so this will be fun. Now, you mentioned that one of your favorites got you thinking about this new theory for what really works for you in your reading life. Is now a good time to talk about your books?

DEBBIE: Sure.

ANNE: Okay. All right. Debbie, you know how this works. You're going to tell me three books you love, one book you don't, and what you've been reading lately, and then we're going to poke at this theory a little bit and see what we discover. How did you choose these books that you brought to the show today?

[00:08:37] DEBBIE: I just kind of looked back at my five-star reads and tried to kind of focus obviously on ones that have really stuck with me, but that in looking back, really maybe kind of match this theory. I'd say that that's kind of how I kind of chose these three, but definitely ones that have stuck with me for a long time.

ANNE: Well, let's jump in. Debbie, what's the first book you love?

DEBBIE: The first book I chose was Like Water for Chocolate by Laura Esquivel. Some folks may have seen the movie, but the book is pretty special. It has a little magical realism story set at the turn of the century during the Mexican Revolution, and it is fun, it's quirky. I feel like that's something else that I have seen as I'm trying to flesh out what a good book is to me. I need a quirky character and someone that I can root for, and Like Water for Chocolate provides, for sure.

[00:09:48] Tita is a young lady, and she is the youngest daughter of kind of tyrannical mother. And just through tradition, she is supposed to never marry, not leave home, take care of her mother for life. That does not jive with the love Tita feels for Pedro. Basically, the mother says, "Nope, there will be no marriage for you," and Pedro instead ends up marrying Tita's sister just to stay close. You can imagine all that ensues in this very complicated, complicated story, family drama.

But what I loved and kind of the food aspect of it, so every chapter opens as a different month of the year, and it opens with a recipe. The recipes tie in with a little bit of the magical realism in the book.

[00:10:55] For instance, she's baking the wedding cake for her sister. She cries tears into the batter, and that has a detrimental effect to all of the guests when they eat the cake. They all end up, well, not only sick, but just in puddles and tears. They feel the deep sorrow that she did when she was baking this cake. No spoiler alerts, but it's also a little tragic, but just a really fun story, just a really interesting story.

ANNE: Okay. Like Water for Chocolate is book one. Debbie, what did you choose for your second loved book?

DEBBIE: My second book was The School of Essential Ingredients by Erica Bauermeister. I'm not usually a completist. I like a lot of variety, but Erica Bauermeister is one that I've read many of her books, not a completist, but many of her books, and really enjoy her writing.

[00:11:57] The School of Essential Ingredients is about a chef who is hosting monthly cooking classes, and each chapter is focused on one of the participants in the class. Her name is Lillian, the chef. Lillian helps them basically through the course of that chapter, during that class, to discover what the essential ingredients to their life, their situation, their problem is. It's also got several endearing characters. I wouldn't say as quirky as Tita in Like Water for Chocolate, but still folks that you can root for.

ANNE: All right, that's The School of Essential Ingredients as your second book. Debbie, what's the final book you love?

[00:12:54] DEBBIE: The third book I chose was, and this I read fairly recently, Where'd You Go, Bernadette by Maria Semple. This book is really what made me open my eyes to say, "Maybe it doesn't have to involve food and cooking to be a top contender." It does have definitely some quirky characters, for sure.

Where'd You Go, Bernadette is about an adolescent lady, young girl, with a very quirky mom, Bernadette. A series of events happens that make you understand Bernadette maybe struggles with some serious mental illness, agoraphobia, as a result of a... which the book opens, which I absolutely love, with Bee, that is the adolescent, with Bee's report card. And as a result of doing a great job and getting ready to move on to the planned boarding school experience, Bee picks a trip to Antarctica as her reward.

[00:14:07] So they're preparing as a family to go to Antarctica. Well, series of crazy events. It ends up that Bee and her father do not go to Antarctica, but Bernadette does, and she gets lost. The book is basically the backstory behind how all of that comes to be, and then Bee and her father reuniting with Bernadette in Antarctica. It's not really epistolary, but I especially loved the first half, which was just chock-full of, like I said, the report card, emails back and forth, letters, articles from Bernadette's past. I think that's what really drove that book for me.

ANNE: Okay. And this, I presume, is the one that spurred the realization.

DEBBIE: Yes, it is.

ANNE: Okay. Would you say more about that?

DEBBIE: Yeah, I was like, well... because it's interesting because I actually really loved... and I listened to this on audio. I really loved the first half of the book in particular, and that's where all of those bits and pieces of information, the letters, the emails, all of that was concentrated.

[00:15:29] Then the second half of the book was more just the story, the story of reuniting with Bernadette, and I think that just made me realize, oh, okay, what really drew me in was the different format, the different structure. And then I started looking back at all of my five-star reads, and it kind of dawned on me, oh, okay, most of these have an interesting format, something that just grabs you from the get-go.

ANNE: Debbie, I think you said that you had more five-star reads that matched this theory. What are some of those books?

DEBBIE: Okay. Theo of Golden, of course. Just how the portraits of the people kind of inform the story. The Only Plane in the Sky: An Oral History of 9/11. Oh my goodness, I loved that so much. I listened to it on audio. I mean, obviously it's interviewing people, but the way that they're little snippets and they're organized in, you know, the time leading up to and over those horrific hours. But the way that it's laid out and the stories are interwoven was just magical to me. I really enjoyed that book.

[00:16:54] North Woods also. The location, but the fact that it was years, decades, centuries in between when we visit and the fact that they're interwoven, that those stories are interwoven, I loved that. Love an epistolary.

Love & Saffron was a highlight. And The Correspondent. Both of those I loved. And then a more recent five-star that I love, Fresh Water for Flowers by Valérie Perrin. Short chapters, very short chapters, but they all open with an epitaph or inscription, and some of them were real from real tombstones. Some I think were imagined. That was just a hook that just kept me going. I love that story.

ANNE: Okay. And I'm inspecting those books for hints of food or wine. Maybe a hint, but not like a looming presence in these.

DEBBIE: Yeah. Yeah.

ANNE: Okay. Okay.

[00:17:59] DEBBIE: That would never be a problem.

ANNE: Okay. I mean, if you could answer the question, what is it about an interesting structure, then you wouldn't need to test your theory. But what has come up for you as you've considered what a distinctive storytelling style, not style exactly. Words are hard, Debbie.

DEBBIE: I know.

ANNE: What is it about the structure that's grabbing you?

DEBBIE: I don't know. I truly don't know. I'm like, I need your help. I'm trying to figure out what it is about this that is working. I don't know. I've wondered, is it just because my brain is lazy and I need some thing to draw me in to keep me entertained? I don't know. I'm not sure.

ANNE: Boards and theories.

DEBBIE: Okay.

[00:18:56] ANNE: You have read a... This is not diagnosis. These are hypotheses. You have read a ton of books, and you are curious about new ways to tell familiar stories. Up, down, yes, no, zero to 10 scale?

DEBBIE: I love that. That's probably a strong contender, nine. Nine out of 10.

ANNE: Okay. Hypothesis: you enjoy seeing what writers can do on the page. You enjoy good books. You think about what a story is, and these writers have new ways of storytelling that you didn't know were on offer to you, and you're just delighted to see all the ways there are to tell a good story.

DEBBIE: I like that also. Maybe a 7 out of 10.

ANNE: Okay. You enjoy the kaleidoscopic, multifaceted approach that these structural choices are bringing to the page. Because you're not just hearing from one narrator. You're not just inside one person's head. You're not getting the God view either with most of these. You know, although I guess you get a God-view narrator in the mix in some of these books that you really enjoy. But you enjoy seeing a full picture. It gives you a lot to think about, a lot to engage with, a lot to reflect upon during and after the reading experience.

[00:20:25] DEBBIE: Yes. Yes. I think that's very accurate. And I do love novelty, variety. I think that's a piece of it, too. But yes, definitely I love the multi viewpoints and being able to tease out what drives people.

ANNE: I mean, Debbie, we're certainly missing some stuff, and I think as you bring these ideas into your reading experience, even if they're just simmering on the back burner as you're continuing about your reading life, I imagine stuff is going to keep coming up for you. Like, "Oh, this makes sense. That's why I enjoy that. This is why I find this so satisfying." But right now, anything coming up for you?

DEBBIE: Nothing new.

ANNE: You don't have to be sad about it.

DEBBIE: I understand. I feel like...

ANNE: This is just data.

DEBBIE: I feel like I brought this half-baked theory, and now I'm expecting you to do all the research and figure it out, so. Sorry.

[00:21:25] ANNE: No, this is what we do here, in part. Do you feel like you have enough to go on?

DEBBIE: Yeah.

ANNE: Debbie, you mentioned some of the characteristics of books that just work for you, and when we think about, like, a Debbie Day prototypical read, you said quirky, you said interesting structure. For a long time, you thought food and wine connections were a big part of it, which makes me wonder about a multi-sensory element.

Like, I wonder if you enjoy a fully realized world that really has a lot of various supports in becoming multidimensional. The sensory angles: sights, scents... sight, scent, smells. Do you see what I did there?

DEBBIE: Yes. Yes, yes.

ANNE: It sounds weird, but two of those are the same thing. Really strong visual descriptions, like cues in the wording that let you really visualize somebody or feel like you know what their voice is going to sound like. You know, you can see the trees, you can feel the sun on your back, that kind of thing.

[00:22:31] I mean, I wonder if you like books that really come alive, and the structure is one of the tools by which that happens. But I also hear very clearly in what you say you enjoy that the structure is a component, but you're not going to be compelled by a very intellectual, you said no tomes. We'll talk about what that means more in a moment. That might have an interesting structure, but you're not looking for feats of technical brilliance or a performance.

DEBBIE: Correct.

ANNE: I think the structure is serving a purpose, and that is you fully stepping into the world, or that's a theory we're working on right now. Your experience with that theory to affirm or deny it is essential here.

DEBBIE: That makes perfect sense. I would want to understand a little bit... I would want to look at some of my favorite reads and see, but that makes perfect sense.

[00:23:33] ANNE: Okay, Debbie, I have questions. What does quirky mean to you? Tell me about a quirky character.

DEBBIE: Ooh.

ANNE: What's interesting about a quirky character?

DEBBIE: Oh, I love a quirky character. I mean, definitely Bernadette in Where'd You Go, Bernadette is a quirky character. Just complex and doesn't necessarily do things the standard way, makes me see things from someone's perspective that I may not be anything like.

Just as an aside, I have a... My 23-year-old is on the autism spectrum, and I think she has made me just grow to appreciate quirkiness and seeing things in a different way and just opening up that there's ways to see things other than my way. I just love to see that in a character. I love to explore that with a character.

[00:24:41] ANNE: So they don't need to be like the Zooey Deschanel character in a movie?

DEBBIE: No.

ANNE: Okay.

DEBBIE: No.

ANNE: Okay. I mean, intellectually, I know that you're thinking about the world differently than I am. But I'm wondering if a quirky character for you... That's unavoidable. Like, you just know they're living their life... They see things differently. You just know. It's very clear.

DEBBIE: Yes.

ANNE: Okay. Complex, non-standard, and different were my jottings there. You said no tomes. You don't want to read any tomes.

DEBBIE: No.

ANNE: But you love Tata by Valérie Perrin, and that's a pretty hefty book.

DEBBIE: It is.

ANNE: The Only Plane in the Sky, not short. So what's a tome, and what I'm looking for is what kind of books will be welcome and which feel less hospitable to you.

[00:25:36] DEBBIE: I actually am currently reading Tata. It was Fresh Water for Flowers that I read that is a tome, for sure. I definitely gravitate toward a... I say shorter book. It doesn't have to be short. I'm okay with getting really connected with characters over a long period of time, but I think I just like the kind of quick-paced, kind of cut to the chase quickly book. I don't need huge, deep, flowery descriptions of something to feel like I'm connected, to feel like I'm in it, and sometimes those long, flowery descriptions actually kind of lose me, kind of lose interest in that. So definitely shorter, 250 to 400 is probably a sweet spot.

ANNE: Okay. You mentioned in your submission that you're interested in stretching into new genres.

DEBBIE: Yes.

ANNE: Would you tell me more?

[00:26:44] DEBBIE: Yeah. I really do love variety and trying new things and exploring. I've dipped my toe in probably all of the genres at some point, but I'm really fascinated and would love to find things in my non-typical genres, like sci-fi, fantasy, even classics. I would say those are my least comfortable genres, but I would love to find some that kind of test this theory of the structure and see how those land, see if those end up being five-star reads for me.

Also, I'm interested in maybe backlist, older books that might fit this. I tend to gravitate toward newer, buzzy books, but I would also be interested in, you know, some that I wouldn't have trouble finding at the library that fit this new theory.

[00:27:59] ANNE: All right. We are going to see what we can do. Okay, Debbie, you enjoyed Like Water for Chocolate by Laura Esquivel, The School of Essential Ingredients by Erica Bauermeister, and Where'd You Go, Bernadette by Maria Semple. I forgot to ask you about a book that wasn't right for you. This is not the first time I've done that. Debbie, it's not too late. I don't know if you feel like you almost snuck through and got off the hook...

DEBBIE: I did. Actually, I probably need to talk about my least favorite book, you know, a book that did not work for me, because it kind of blows my theory, so do with it what you will.

ANNE: But it sounds very important. Okay.

DEBBIE: It's probably important.

ANNE: What's the book that's not right for you, and we gotta hear why. Not to your taste, was the timing wrong, not what you're looking for right now?

[00:28:57] DEBBIE: I read it a while back, but it sticks out for sure as a DNF for real. Like, serious DNF. Whether I should or shouldn't be embarrassed, it doesn't matter, but back in the Twilight Saga days, I was a huge fan the whole series.

So I was pretty excited to hear about Midnight Sun when it was coming out by Stephenie Meyer. Again, it seems to fit, like, not maybe structure, but the fact that it was going to retell the whole story from a different character's perspective seems like that would be an interesting catch to me. It did not work for me at all. It seemed ridiculous and nonsensical, and I just... It just couldn't go anymore. I probably read three chapters and just couldn't go anymore. So there's that.

[00:29:57] ANNE: Wait, hang on. You think this one book blows your whole theory?

DEBBIE: Well, maybe it doesn't blow my whole theory. I would have thought this would have been the perfect kind of interesting approach that it would work for me, but did not.

ANNE: Okay. Well, that's good to know. Also, because you like books with interesting structures, it doesn't mean you are going to like every book with an interesting structure. Like sometimes readers will come to me and say, "I thought I liked memoir, but I didn't enjoy this." There's so much variety in any category we're talking about in the reading life, and so many other factors. That's what makes books endlessly interesting, and also means that there's no, like, pat formula that's going to deliver a predictable result every time. Sometimes that's frustrating, but mostly we like it that way.

DEBBIE: Yeah. Yeah. You're right. You're absolutely right.

[00:30:52] ANNE: Okay, so the Twilight Saga book, Midnight Sun, not for you, just to pick up where we were. And we talked about some of the other five-star reads that back up your theory, including Fresh Water for Flowers by Valérie Perrin, and The Only Plane in the Sky by Garrett M. Graff. And we are looking for books with interesting structures that I think potentially you could read and see what they're like for you, what you notice. Do they work, and why or why not? And you're interested in branching into new genres.

Now's a good time to remind everyone, sometimes we get emails that say or ask Anne Anything questions that say, "What's the gap between when you're having this conversation and when you recommend the books?" There is no gap. We're just sitting here live with our no-Google policy, giving books to Debbie and... oh, sci-fi and fantasy. I'm sure there's good stuff that fits the bill. I have one in mind, but I wish I had more.

[00:31:53] Readers, you have the advantage of perusal and contemplation and your own bookshelves. Please come over to the comments at whatshouldireadnextpodcast.com and give your recommendations for Debbie. Reading is a group project and a team effort, and it's better that way. So thank you in advance for bringing your recommendations this way.

But Debbie, let's look at titles that could cement your theory. Let's start in what I imagine is a place of comfort for you. Now, you didn't explicitly talk about historical fiction or other works by the authors you enjoy, like Erica Bauermeister, No Two Persons. My goodness, there's an interesting structure. Have you read that one?

DEBBIE: I have.

ANNE: Did it work for you?

DEBBIE: Yeah. I really do enjoy all of her work.

ANNE: And there are other authors who write novels that are told in rotating points of view like that that I think you might find interesting, but I don't believe you're going to love in the same way. I'm thinking anything Joan Silber, for example. We have a blog post on Modern Mrs. Darcy, novels told in short stories.

[00:33:04] Gosh, we could talk about the different kinds of interesting structures, like novels that come full circle, or novels that are told where you go straight through, you meet one narrator, and there's a different narrator the whole book. We could talk about novels that are told only in emails, or only in Slack messages, or written as a play, or a sestina, or a partita coming out this fall. There's all kinds of different interesting structures, and we're not categorizing them today.

I will say, you could read nonfiction about creating an interesting structure. I don't see that appealing to you, but maybe I'm wrong. How does that sound?

DEBBIE: Hmm, that piques my interest, for sure.

ANNE: Okay. Well, the one I'm thinking of is a nonfiction book by John McPhee called Draft No. 4. The reason I'm recommending Draft No. 4 is that one of the essays in it that was originally published in The New Yorker maybe 15 years ago, called Structure, is in this collection.

[00:34:05] But he also has a long career writing nonfiction and teaching nonfiction. And John McPhee is a smart guy. You all may have heard Ginger talk about Oranges, I think, on this podcast. Draft No. 4 might have been the first book-length work I read by him. And I just saw it on the shelf at Politics and Prose for half off many, many years ago and thought, "I've heard of him. I'll try that." But he has an essay in there called Structure.

And something I think's interesting about that essay is he says that a piece doesn't really come to life until he can find the structure that is going to underpin all these thoughts, that while they might not be totally disparate, it can't come to life until he knows the best way to tell it. And he works only in nonfiction, but that doesn't mean that the way of thinking about the shape of a piece doesn't apply.

[00:35:01] Also, something he says in this piece is you're not supposed to notice the structure as a reader. He uses the analogy of the human body and a skeleton. Like, you're not supposed to see my bones, Debbie, and I'm not supposed to see yours. Like something has gone wrong if they are poking through.

But the structure holds everything up. Like it gives it shape and form and makes it look good. In the piece, he talks specifically about one piece that he just felt vexed by until he had the moment of epiphany, which he describes, that made everything fall into place, and then it worked.

But these essays are so smart, but also playful and friendly. Like, "Hey, Debbie, let me tell you some things I've learned about what makes good writing work and what prevented the writing from work." Oh, we talked about books that just work. What prevented the writing from just working until these certain things were implemented. But he talks about how he researches, puts together pieces, and then edits it, ooh, with so many details. Just absolutely fascinating. You might care about the behind-the-scenes.

[00:36:14] And I wonder if one of the reasons you like books with structure is you like to get at all sides of your stories. This is nonfiction, but I wonder if this would be an interesting way to get at all sides of the stories you enjoy reading. It really might not be, but you could learn something about yourself if you wanted to give it a try. That's Draft No. 4 by John McPhee.

Now, the direction I thought we were going to is a place that I thought might be your comfort zone. You know, I suppose, like Like Water for Chocolate, it does happen in a different... I mean, turn-of-the-century Mexican Revolution. Laura Esquivel did not write it at that time, so she's got a... It's not historical fiction like top billing, but that is present. But I was thinking about the historical fiction of Kate Quinn, specifically... Oh, now I'm blanking on the title of the book. What's it called? The Briar Club. Is this a book you're familiar with?

[00:36:54] DEBBIE: I have heard of it. It may even be on my Want to Read list. But tell me more.

ANNE: So Kate Quinn's newest book is in the sci-fi fantasy direction, if that makes your ears perk up. But this book, The Briar Club, is more along the lines of what regular Kate Quinn readers have come to expect from her. This book is set during the McCarthy era in Washington, DC, and it takes place almost entirely in this residence called the Briarwood House that works as a women's boarding house run by a landlord that you are not going to like very much. She is not your likable character in this story, but there are lots of likable characters and quirky characters who live in the house.

[00:37:50] So in the shape of the book, we hear from each of the house's residents in turn, but only once. So every resident has her moment on the stage, and then she leaves, and you find out what happened to her later because you're going to want to know, "Oh my gosh, how does that story end?" You hear it from someone else's point of view, and you learn about what she longs for in 1950s DC and why she's there by herself in a women's boarding house with a not-very-nice landlord, and you learn the secret she's keeping from her housemates.

That might not sound wholly unusual, but the thing I really like is the house weighs in constantly. You hear from the house itself more than once. And the house has its own strong opinions about what happens within its walls. The house has been around longer than any of the residents, so in the opening chapter, it tells you some of its sordid history, and then we see things through until the end.

[00:38:57] So you have that structure. You have interesting characters with strong personalities, which is another way I might interpret quirky, if that doesn't sound too off-base to you. And for readers who enjoy history, mystery, stories of complex relationships, secrets, there's a little bit of a magical vibe going on here, and I mean, a good story well told. How does that sound to you?

DEBBIE: That sounds good, too. Do you know about how long that one is?

ANNE: Okay. I listened to the audiobook, which clocked in at 15 hours, so I'm going to say that's like a 400-pager.

DEBBIE: Okay.

ANNE: It's 432 pages.

DEBBIE: Perfect. I love the idea of the house weighing in.

ANNE: It's fun. Now, this one we talked about on What Should I Read Next?. So it may sound familiar as I describe it, but I'm wondering about One Woman Show by Christine Coulson. Coulson is bringing her background to this work in a strong way. She worked at the Met in New York City for decades, and one of her last jobs there before... You know, I was presuming she quit to write fiction, but that's not necessarily true. But one of her last jobs there was writing the 75-word little wall labels for the museum's new British galleries, you know, like the little curatorial notes that appear alongside each work, and she thought, "You know, what if I wrote a novel in that form?" And that's what this is.

[00:40:35] One Woman Show is the life story of this fictional woman named Kitty Whitaker, and it is told solely through these fictional museum wall labels. It's about a 20th-century woman who utterly transforms herself over the course of her lifetime.

This looks like a 200-page book-length manuscript. There's only 75-ish words on each page. You could read this in one sitting. And if you are a fan of an interesting structure or if you're just a nerd about all the different ways a story can be written, we say nerd with great affection around here, or if you really love art, design, museum stories, this would be a good pick for any of those readers. How does that sound?

DEBBIE: That sounds amazing because, which just popped into my brain, my favorite book as a child was From the Mixed-Up Files of Mrs. Basil E. Frankweiler. It's hard to not-

[00:41:38] ANNE: I'm laughing because it brings me delight to remember that book exists.

DEBBIE: Oh, I love that book. So this, I don't know, like the Met and the... Yeah, this sounds fantastic.

ANNE: Okay. I'm glad to hear it. I'm not sure how you'll think about this one, if this might be t- well, you know what? I don't know what you think, but you're here. You can tell me, Debbie. Have you read Trust by Hernan Diaz?

DEBBIE: No.

ANNE: Okay. This is literary historical fiction. It's a book within a book within a book, and it's told in four distinct parts, and each one, in order, subtly changes the meaning of what came before, subtly changes the meaning of what came before that, and then turns the whole thing on its head in the final section.

This is set in the early 20th century. It centers around the Wall Street crash of 1929 and goes on into the '30s. So part one is a biographical novel based on the life of an infamous Wall Street trader who, unlike everyone else, basically flourished after the market crash of 1929.

[00:42:46] Part two is an unfinished draft of the autobiography the trader began writing with the help of a ghostwriter to correct the manuscript we just read in part one. Part three is the ghostwriter's story about writing that story, and part four I cannot tell you, because that would be a huge spoiler, but it just blows up the whole thing.

Now, I wonder what you'll think about the emotional tone, but strong characters, interesting characters. Is there a likable character? There's a wry detachment in much of this, but yeah, I think you'll enjoy hanging out with some of these people. You really won't like others, but you're not supposed to.

There are diary excerpts in the story, which makes me think about your love for epistolary writing. But this is one of those books where every time you think you know the story, whoops, you get new information that changes it entirely. How is this sounding?

DEBBIE: That sounds excellent also. I love that.

[00:43:47] ANNE: All right. Now, I am sorry to say that this is not fantastical in any way, but Hernan Diaz's next work is. Somehow in my mind that feels like it helps with the genre thing. It does not. It really does not at all. Okay, let's do two more for some variety.

DEBBIE: Okay.

ANNE: I didn't expect to camp out so much in the historical space, but that's where we are. There's a new memoir out called Troika by Irena Smith. Is this a book you're familiar with?

DEBBIE: It's not.

ANNE: Okay. Listeners, we read this in Modern Mrs Darcy Book Club in September. If you're thinking, "Why have I heard of that?" This is a short memoir that you could read very quickly. It unfolds over the course of a weekend, road trip, actually, and it's a multi-generational tale of three women in one family. One is in her early 20s, one is right about 50, and one is in her 70s. Grandmother, mother, daughter.

[00:44:40] The middle generation is the narrator, and they're going on a road trip, and you are going to hear why, where are they going, what are they up to, what are they doing, but in a way that I have not mapped. I wonder what Irena Smith's outline looks like for this book, or what her chart of scenes on the wall looks like.

But what they are going on is their own sort of odyssey. She is constantly name-checking The Odyssey and many works of classics and ancient literature constantly throughout the story, not just in reference to her love of literature, but also referencing her own life and history.

This is an immigrant story. Her parents, her mother in the car with her, came to the US when she was young, like in grade school. They moved to California. And she talks about growing up between those two worlds and navigating their new world and what that was like, and the stories that were told about the Russian homeland, and going back and forth culturally.

[00:45:53] To give you an idea of the tone of this story, The White Lotus season 2 is also constantly referenced in this story and used as a storytelling device. And this book spoils The White Lotus season 2 and its ending. So readers and Debbie, take note. That is what you're in for. But I wonder if you would enjoy this ride in the car that, in one sense, has a tight chronology. They get in the car, they go for the weekend, they come back, but on the other, wanders all over the place with the help of ancient literature and The White Lotus season 2. How's that sounding?

DEBBIE: That sounds really good, too. I love the nod to the classics and relevant cultural stories. I like that. I like that a lot.

ANNE: Okay, I'm glad to hear it. And we are going to close with a book that I've talked about on the podcast before, but not for a while. I just checked. It's Lovely War by Julie Berry. Have you read this one?

DEBBIE: I have not.

[00:47:00] ANNE: Okay. This is a lot of fun, and this is one of those books that I've heard a lot from readers, "I didn't think that was the book for me, but oh my gosh, I'm so glad I found it." This is historical fantasy that combines a World War I story, a love story, and Greek mythology. The structure is unlike anything I've ever read because in the opening chapter, Aphrodite and Ares, like yes, the Greek gods, walk into a swanky Manhattan hotel during World War II, and soon enough, Aphrodite's husband, Hephaestus, challenges her to show him what love really looks like.

So they're placing a bet on the mere mortals, as the gods want to do. So she says, "Have I got something to show you." And in intercut scenes, she takes the reader back in time to meet four young lovers in 1917 Britain, and she walks us through how each couple fell in love, what they mean to each other, the obstacles in their way, how love is going to win out. So we have these poignant scenes set in 1917, and then we're whooshed back to the Manhattan hotel where the gods are fighting over and over and over again. How's that sounding?

[00:48:19] DEBBIE: That also sounds intriguing. I love the Greek mythology nod. I love that.

ANNE: All right. Debbie, we'll recap, readers, for the books we put on Debbie's plate, but how are you feeling about your interesting structure theory?

DEBBIE: I think you have nailed it. I mean, everything that you've recommended feels like it's totally on spot for the challenge, the interesting structure, and they all sound great. They all sound good.

ANNE: All right. Now it's up to you to road test it. I'll be curious to hear how it goes. The books we talked about today: John McPhee's Draft No. 4, The Briar Club by Kate Quinn, One Woman Show by Christine Coulson, Trust by Hernan Diaz, Troika by Irena Smith, and Lovely War by Julie Berry. Debbie, what sounds good? What do you think you might pick up next?

[00:49:18] DEBBIE: I mean, truly, truly, I think I'll probably tackle them all eventually. They do sound perfect. I think it's a toss-up between One Woman Show and Trust. I don't know. If I had to pick between those two, I could only pick one, which one would you recommend?

ANNE: I don't know, but here's how I would decide. I'd ask myself, do I want an encapsulated reading experience? Because One Woman Show, truly, you will get through very, very quickly. That's going to be over and done. Trust will be a multi-day journey, perhaps multi-week journey for some readers. So I would just let that decide, instead of weighing any other merits of the books. I don't know if you like to let the library decide, if you want to look for something good on audio. I listened to Trust on audio, it was phenomenal. I think I'd want to look at One Woman Show. So if any of those factors help you decide very quickly in a way that doesn't feel as much like a value judgment.

[00:50:26] DEBBIE: Yeah. Well, that's actually perfect because I usually have a book and an audio going at the same time, so I'll do both of those at the same time. I love it.

ANNE: Okay. Debbie, this has been a delight. Thank you so much for talking books with me.

DEBBIE: This has been so much fun, just like a dream come true. Super fun. I, also just if you don't mind, want to say one thing in light of last week's loss. I just think you should know, I see you as the Dolly Parton of the reading world. I do. I just think you are warm and kind and super smart, but not like this intimidating way, and you just bring joy to people.

ANNE: Aw, that is the kindest. Thank you so much.

[00:51:11] DEBBIE: Well, thank you. This has really been a pleasure.

ANNE: Hey readers, I hope you enjoyed my conversation with Debbie, and I'd love to hear what you think she should read next. Find Debbie on Instagram @debbielday, and find the full list of titles we talked about today at whatshouldireadnextpodcast.com.

Find us on Instagram and tag us in your reading posts and stories @whatshouldireadnext. My personal account is @annebogel.

Keep up with our latest episodes and other news like events, new merch, and more by joining our email list. Sign up at whatshouldireadnextpodcast.com/newsletter.

Make sure you're following in Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Overcast, wherever you get your podcasts. This makes it easy to get each week's new episode automatically in your feed, and it helps tell networks that you like our show and you'd like us to keep doing it.

[00:52:13] Thanks to the people who make this show happen. What Should I Read Next? is created each week by executive producer Will Bogel, Media production specialist Holly Wielkoszewski, social media manager and editor Leigh Kramer, community coordinator Brigid Misselhorn, community manager Shannan Malone, and our whole team at What Should I Read Next? and Modern Mrs. Darcy HQ. Plus the audio whizzes at Studio D Podcast Production.

Readers, that's it for this episode. Thanks so much for listening. And as Rainer Maria Rilke said, "Ah, how good it is to be among people who are reading." Happy reading, everyone.

LINDSEY BLOODWORTH: My friend Laura, I think, said it best for that book. She said, "Hated it. Five stars."

ANNE BOGEL: Hey readers, I'm Anne Bogel, and this is What Should I Read Next?. Welcome to the show that's dedicated to answering the question that plagues every reader, what should I read next? We don't get bossy on this show. What we will do here is give you the information you need to choose your next read. Every week we'll talk all things books and reading, and do a little literary matchmaking with one guest.

[00:00:43] Readers, as you will hear shortly, I am joined in today's episode by team member Shannan Malone, whose services are What Should I Read Next? Patreon Community Manager. Before we jump in, Shannan and I want to tell you more about what you'll find when you join us on Patreon.

We've had some big changes lately, adding new ways to enjoy our show and support what we do here. And when you listen to our Patreon bonus episodes each Friday, you hear from me, of course, and also from members of the Modern Mrs. Darcy and What Should I Read Next? team, which I know many of you really enjoy.

We have three different options for Patreon memberships. Our classic membership is now titled Bonuses and Events. Nothing has changed about that membership, its price, or what it includes, but we've added two new options this summer that necessitated the name change.

The first new tier is our ad-free episodes tier for $5 a month. This gets you weekly episodes of this show, What Should I Read Next? without the ads. We also rolled out our Patreon all-inclusive tier for $10 a month.

[00:01:41] This is exactly what it sounds like. It includes everything we do on Patreon, which is our weekly bonus episodes, live events, like our Fall Book Preview and Summer Reading Guide unboxing, and those new weekly ad-free episodes of What Should I Read Next? We are so grateful for the moral support and also financial support our patrons provide week in and week out. Our patrons truly make it possible for us to do what we do, and that really means paying the bills, as well as boost our morale and give us input.

If you're a patron, thank you. If not, consider joining us and helping us make the show. Check out the options and sign up for a monthly or annual membership at your tier choice at patreon.com/whatshouldIreadnext.

Readers, today's format is new-ish to us. It's one in which I invite a team member to join me in recommending titles for a guest. As you may recall from back in episode 523, when I was joined by team member Ginger Horton, sometimes I see a guest submission come across my screen and think, "Oh, I know just the team member I want to have that conversation with and just the team member that reader wants to recommend books to them."

[00:02:51] Today is one of those episodes. I am thrilled to welcome our Patreon community manager, Shannan Malone, to co-host with me. We are chatting with Lindsey Bloodworth, who's joining us from Homewood, Alabama.

Lindsey is a mom to two boys, and she's found joy and community in her book clubs, in a mom's workout group that she's managed to turn into a book club, as well as through another book club at her local indie bookstore.

Lindsey wrote in because she would love to hear ideas for books her community of moms would enjoy reading and discussing together. She's got a wrinkle she's adding to that question, as you will hear. Lindsey's found that having other moms to chat with through all of life's small and big moments has been really important to her, and she's enjoyed using books to spark these conversations.

Shannan also lives in Alabama and in a prior life ran the Rocket City Mom Virtual Book Club for 10 years, where they read over 60 books together. So when she saw Lindsey's she knew she had ideas.

[00:03:45] Today, we will see what types of books we can put on Lindsey's reading radar that might make for great conversations with either one of her book clubs. Readers, I really enjoyed this. Let's get to it.

Lindsey, Shannan, welcome to the show.

LINDSEY: Thanks, Anne.

SHANNAN MALONE: Hello.

ANNE: We always say that reading is better together, and I love that we have a literary trio today. So, like we said in the intro, we are exploring how to bring our team members on and let them speak from their readerly expertise into our listeners' and guests' lives. Because, Shannan, you read very differently from me.

SHANNAN: Yes.

ANNE: Yes. And our readers contain multitudes. Lindsey, we're so glad you're here today. Thank you for doing this for the second or third time, depending on how you're counting, in What Should I Read Next? history. And listeners, if there's a particular team member that you think you are a book twin of, and you'd like to hop on and get their recommendations, I mean, I'll chime in, but, Shannan, I'm deferring to you today, we would love to have you. That page is at whatshouldireadnextpodcast.com/guest. And Lindsey, that's how you came our way today. Thanks so much for being here.

[00:04:55] LINDSEY: I'm excited to be here after all of these years and all of the attempted submissions.

ANNE: You know, we could pull up that history just for fun. What made you think that now was the time to send in the submission that you did?

LINDSEY: I'm a mom. I live in Homewood, Alabama. I've got two little boys. What made me send in the submission this time was I'm in two book clubs, but one of them is for part of, I guess, my job. I'm a part-time coach for a moms' stroller workout group called Fit4Mom Birmingham. And so, part of the workout is moms can bring their kids in the stroller. We all work out outside together in the, well, sometimes the Alabama heat. The beautiful way to say it is in the sunshine and fresh air.

But it's a really great supportive community of moms. Back in 2022, when I became a coach, they also asked me to start a book club, and I said, yes, with one condition. And that is that I got to pick the books because I wasn't, this is selfish and I know it, but I wasn't interested in reading what someone else wanted to read with my limited reading time with, at the time, two very young kids. And so, I said, "Yes, I'd love to, but everybody has to read what I want to read."

[00:06:21] Mostly, I still pick the books. Sometimes I text another mom who reads a lot or we'll talk about it at book club. Like my friend Michelle recently read Heart the Lover and she said she had listened to the audio three times already on Hoopla. And I thought, "Well, if you've read it three times, we should do it as a book choice."

So, after our conversation, our book club in June, we did Yesteryear and had such an interesting conversation, such a varied conversation about current events and influencer life and how that overlaps with motherhood and decisions that we make every day and how we're influenced whether we know it or not and how we are complicit in the culture and how we also don't like it at the same time. We just had such a great conversation, even with the moms who hadn't finished the book yet, that I thought, "This is what I want more of. More books that we can talk about, even if everybody in the room hasn't finished it." So, I went home and applied to get our book club on the show.

[00:07:38] ANNE: I love it.

LINDSEY: That was the ticket.

ANNE: I love it. That was submission number what?

LINDSEY: Four, maybe.

ANNE: Okay. Lindsey, your first submission, it appears, was in November 2018. Do you remember the books you love? They're different from the books we're talking about today. Actually, I think one would be perfect for your book club.

LINDSEY: I think that one was when I wanted to be... was that the infertility one or when I was applying to be a teacher? Or I wanted more books that were diverse, maybe for my classroom? I don't know. I have no idea what I put in 2018.

ANNE: Well, the books you loved... Well, I could send it to you if you'd like to check it out, take a walk down memory lane. But you loved The Road, To Kill a Mockingbird-

LINDSEY: Yes, I did.

ANNE: And Tell Me More by Kelly Corrigan, which if you haven't read in book club, might be worth resurfacing.

LINDSEY: We haven't done Tell Me More. But as I was looking through the list this morning of all the past books we've done, I thought, "Why haven't we done Tell Me More?"

[00:08:37] ANNE: Maybe because it's really hard. It's really hard in a lot of ways.

LINDSEY: It is. You have to have the right time of year. You're not going to do that in December. I'm just not going to do that with my book club in December. That's too heavy. But yeah, Tell Me More is a good one.

ANNE: But I don't want to get ahead of ourselves as we talk about what might be suitable and what might not be suitable and more. Lindsey, you participate in two book clubs: one you shepherd, one you just get to come and talk books. Tell us more about your reading life.

LINDSEY: I love, I tell people this all the time, I love all book things and all book people. I think y'all say on this show, sometimes book people are the best people. And I really think that's true. So, I'm in a book club through my local independent bookstore, Little Professor.

ANNE: Aw. I got to go there once. It's such a lovely store.

[00:09:30] LINDSEY: I've been in it for five years. Kathleen runs the literary fiction group there. It's a really great intergenerational group of readers. I tend to be on the younger side of that group. It just really enriches, I think, my reading experience. Even if I don't particularly enjoy the book, having the chance to talk about it with a group of people, especially from different lived experiences, is really helpful. So, there's the book club part of my reading life. And being in the two book clubs really shapes my month. Although I'm a book club procrastinator, the number of times I am finishing a book club book the day of or two days before is far more often than not. I would say 85% of the time.

ANNE: And the bright side is it's very top of mind.

LINDSEY: It is. That's the reason I do it. I have a book club this Saturday, and I'm 70% of the way through the book and I'm astonished at myself.

ANNE: What's the book?

[00:10:38] LINDSEY: Theo of Golden. It's for our church retreat. That's a one-off separate book discussion. But yeah, other part of my reading life, I just really... I don't feel like my true self if I'm not reading every day. So, most of the time that's reading before bed. I always have more than one book going, partly because of the book clubs. So, something a little more literary, a little more contemporary, maybe a memoir. And then I'm almost always reading romance at night.

ANNE: That sounds great.

LINDSEY: It's a nice balance.

ANNE: Now, Lindsey, I know it's your book club, the one that you choose the books for, that brought you here today. I'd love to hear more about finding these books that open the door to community and conversation. And that is something... I mean, I love all things books and reading and however you put it, I feel like we should put that on a sticker.

[00:11:37] But you touched on how something I love about reading is you get to springboard into conversations about topics that really matter really quickly in a way that feels natural and not weird or awkward, but just that's what books do. And I'm interested in hearing more about the flavor you're looking for and what's worked before. And I wonder if that means we should start by talking about the books you brought to the show today.

LINDSEY: Yeah, we can. Or I can tell you a little bit about the makeup of the club and why it is the way that it is.

ANNE: Yeah. Let's start there.

LINDSEY: So, FIT4MOM brings moms from all walks of life. But traditionally, or not traditionally, historically it's been moms with younger kids. Although now there's this group of us that's been together, a lot more of our kids are in school and they're not just tiny babies anymore. So having book club on the calendar every month is also a good moms night out opportunity.

[00:12:40] It's a book club that is intentionally always open to any mom. So if they suddenly have a free night, they can feel free to come. I don't ever want a mom to feel like they can't come to book club because they haven't read the book. So when I was thinking about applying to be on the show, I thought it's going to be a funny request to say, "Hey, Anne, please give me books for book club that people don't have to read." You know, like...

ANNE: Okay. That may sound silly, but how many of us listening have been so excited to go to like an author event at the bookstore where the whole point is this book is new, you know nothing, you haven't read it yet, but let's talk about it anyway. There's value there.

LINDSEY: Oh, absolutely.

ANNE: So I hear what you're saying, and also, I don't want you to minimize the value of what you're doing and what this brings people.

[00:13:35] LINDSEY: And that's what I've seen happen. So many times moms... well, and there was even one book that I didn't finish. But moms just really connect with what we're talking about. Whether it's one of the books I'm going to talk about later is What Kind of Paradise by Janelle Brown, whether it's what role does technology play in the way that we raise our children. We've done a few parenting self-help books where, you know, it doesn't matter if you've read it because you can share your opinion on the topic. But generally, those are not the kind of books we're reading. But it's overall really important to me and other people in the group that it just remain this open space where you can come, you can connect with the moms there, and that you don't feel isolated if you don't know the plot of the book.

We do tell people they will get spoilers. Yesteryear was the only book we chose where I almost told people, "Don't come if you haven't finished it." But I didn't. And the discussion was better for it.

[00:14:42] ANNE: Lindsey, that is good information thinking through hospitality being a leading filter. And then what that means. It means the door is open, even on short notice, even if you have no hope of even obtaining the book before you show up to a set to talk about the topics in it. Okay, so theme forward, or books with like a strong premise that you can emotionally really step into quickly?

LINDSEY: Mm-hmm.

ANNE: Okay Can we hear now what that looks like with the actual titles?

LINDSEY: Sure.

ANNE: Okay. You know how this works. You have brought three books that your book club loved, one book, they didn't, and what you've been reading lately, and Shannan and I are going to explore options for possible future book club selections.

LINDSEY: Sounds good.

ANNE: Lindsey, how did you choose these?

[00:15:39] LINDSEY: I chose the three books today based on overall the best conversations that we've had, the ones that have gotten us kicked out of the restaurant at 10:30. We meet at 7:00 PM, and it is not rare for us to shut down the local restaurant that we're at. Because we sit outside, and they don't close until 10:00 PM. So we are often the last ones gone. And so it's those conversations that I thought we were definitely kicked out. Those are the ones I chose.

ANNE: All right. What's the first book that not quite kept you up all night, but into the night?

LINDSEY: Kept us out into the night. The first book is What Kind of Paradise by Janelle Brown. I actually found out about it through the Summer Reading Guide. I think it was a Summer Reading Guide. I was really intrigued by the premise. Then our local bookstore also did it as a book club choice, but for a group I'm not in. And I heard that they had a phenomenal discussion. And I thought, "Okay, I heard about it in two places. I know it's about parenthood and technology. We'll read it."

[00:16:52] So What Kind of Paradise ended up being a really great choice because of the conversations the book brings up with technology and protecting our kids. The dad in the book makes the decision to take his daughter into the woods and live there so that they aren't, I guess, poisoned would be the good word to use there. They aren't poisoned by the internet. This is the early '90s with the tech boom. So she's really completely isolated and cut off from society out there.

And as moms in 2026, though 2025 at the time, I feel like what we hear as moms often is the danger of screen time. There are so many dangers online. And we know these things to be true. And we have young kids. And so we're always wrestling with these questions of what limitations do we put in place? When and at what ages do our kids get certain freedoms? Because all of us have, I think the oldest kid, typically, of a mom that comes to our book club is 12. So we don't have a lot of experienced moms in the group that can say, "Oh, my kid's in college, here's how it went for me."

[00:18:21] So I think that does kind of change the conversation that we're having. And What Kind of Paradise really took this idea of parenthood and protecting our kids. And we were able to have a conversation separate from the plot of the book, even though we had plenty of commentary around that because it's so sensational and fun. Well, fun may be the bad word for it.

ANNE: It's big. Lots of big actions and big feelings in that story.

LINDSEY: Yes. So What Kind of Paradise was really a great inroad for a lot of serious and thoughtful conversation.

ANNE: What lingers with you from that conversation, like now that we're probably more than a year out from having it?

LINDSEY: I think overall, it's that we're all struggling with this question of how far is too far in protecting your children? The book does an excellent job of showing that in the extreme. Most people won't take their kids to the woods and cut them off from technology and then decide to publish a manifesto and have their kid learn coding anyway, which is hypocritical, but that's okay. That was a fun side conversation.

[00:19:37] ANNE: Well, that's something to talk about.

LINDSEY: Yeah. But I think it's just like, we're all struggling in this parenthood thing together, and we're all also fearful together, but it's a little less scary because at least we're together trying to figure it out. And every family is going to make a different choice. It can be interesting to hear about the choices other families are making with screen time and how some kids are more sensitive than others to different shows, different books. So every family handles it differently. And I think the more you talk to real people in your community about what's working in their family, just the easier, maybe at least thinking about it, can be. I hope that makes sense.

ANNE: I think so. I think so. Lindsey, what's the second book you all really loved?

[00:20:34] LINDSEY: The second one was actually within our first year of the book club and it was Untamed by Glennon Doyle. We have done a few memoirs over the years, but this was our first one. And it worked really well just logistically as a book club choice because it's got short essays. Again, if you didn't get very far in the book, that's fine because you could say, "Well, I did read this one essay and I really loved it."

But I think this was a great book for a lot of moms to talk about their full selves outside of motherhood, but with motherhood being an integral part of who they are. Untamed, we got to have two really great conversations. One was about past religious history and trauma — I would put the word trauma on it — and how that informs all of us today, no matter what decisions we're making with faith in our families.

[00:21:38] And then also we had some really more concrete discussions. Like there's a great essay in Untamed about talking to boys about pornography. Glennon said something to a friend of hers where... I think I'm close to what she says, but she says like, "Don't leave that boy alone in the dark by himself to figure out this conversation." She has this metaphor with like don't let your son walk alone in the dark woods that is pornography and not go in there with a flashlight and help him out. It feels awkward, but like, do you really want your kid walking alone in the dark? And I thought, "No, because I have two boys." Not that people shouldn't also have this conversation with girls, but for me as a mom of boys, it hit differently. So we were also able to share our individual reactions to specific essays that really resonated for us. That one was mine.

[00:22:39] ANNE: So she's putting, I mean, not easy, relevant topics in front of you one after one and saying, "Talk about this. Talk about this. Don't you want to talk about that?"

LINDSEY: Yes.

ANNE: "Here's a jumping off point."

LINDSEY: Right. And I think it's that jumping off point that provided fantastic discussion. I mean, that was in 2023. So a lot of the core members of the book club have been together that long. And because of the nature of the group and the nature of people's schedules, we have people coming in and out all the time. But there is a core group of moms that have been together. And I think books like Untamed that have allowed us to share deeper parts of ourselves really helped build the backbone of the group and that trust and vulnerability in one another.

[00:23:35] ANNE: That's good to hear. Something else I'm noticing is that with a book like Untamed, and it's been a long time since I've read it, but she puts a lot of different topics on the table. Just going back to the idea of hospitality and creating easy points of entry for your moms coming in, it seems like there are more and less potentially vulnerable conversation points so that people can engage at a level that feels comfortable to them. Is there something there?

LINDSEY: No, I think there's a lot there. I don't know that I have put that to words myself. So that's really helpful. Because you don't want to make a mom who doesn't know us yet say, "Hello, tell us all of your past religious trauma. Go."

ANNE: We're talking about our deepest, darkest secrets.

LINDSEY: But if you've been in this group for three going on four years, you may be more willing to share. And then that can also show a level of openness to our newer moms to say, "Oh, this might actually be a safe place where these moms are being authentic." That's the hope.

[00:24:51] ANNE: Next, process of elimination. Lindsey, I think we have the book that prompted the submission. What's the third book your book club loved?

LINDSEY: So the third book we loved was Yesteryear by Caro Claire Burke. This book is everywhere right now. I told our book club, I don't know if this is true or not, but when I chose it, I told them it was the buzziest book of the year. In our experience, that has been true. And so many of the moms said, "Oh my gosh, I've been wanting to read this." So I think it was a good choice.

But because it has to deal or it deals with influencer culture, it deals with motherhood, the motherhood you see on screen, on camera through Instagram, or maybe also TikTok. I don't know. I don't do TikTok. I'm not cool enough. So you have the motherhood on screen, and then you have the true character as presented in the book, who has a completely different personality from her influencer personality.

[00:25:57] The book deals with the repercussions of that. And then also the main character suddenly, and you know this from the book jacket, so it's not a spoiler, unless you're a really cool reader that doesn't read book jackets. That would probably be my preferred way to enter books most of the time. But she suddenly wakes up in 1850s-ish America, and she's having to live this old western, quote, yesteryear life. She's having to make her own bread for real and not just in a fancy, you know, sourdough cast iron... I don't know. What are they called? I don't know. Pan. But she's actually having to work the land and wash laundry by hand.

[00:26:55] So that was the premise that really hooked us. And that, oh, this influencer is going to actually have to live by the values that she espouses online. What does that look like? And so Yesteryear... we had a really fun time. My friend Jane suggested we do a butter party because there was homemade butter in the book. And so everybody brought a butter-themed treat.

ANNE: Wait, so that happened? You made that happen?

LINDSEY: Yes. Really, Jane made it happen.

ANNE: Tell us what was on the table, please.

LINDSEY: Some people brought homemade bread, but we also had Texas Roadhouse rolls and their butter. We just had butter cookies from Trader Joe's. There were Butterfingers. I brought Butterbeer Goldfish from Harry Potter and found those at Costco.

ANNE: I didn't know that was a thing.

[00:27:47] LINDSEY: It was very clear, like, this is what the moms bring to a butter party. But also just all sorts of varieties of butter, which was fun. And then we made our own butter from something someone had seen on Instagram, which is you can put some ingredient that makes butter. I feel like I should know. Cream?

ANNE: I think it's cream.

SHANNAN: Yeah, cream.

LINDSEY: In a Mason jar, and then you just shake it until it makes butter. And so we passed it around while we talked about the book and made our own butter.

SHANNAN: I love that.

LINDSEY: Jane gets all the credit here. But so that was fun. And sort of a tongue in cheek, you know, where we're talking about influencer culture, but yet also we're actively doing this thing to see if it works that we saw on Instagram by making this butter.

[00:28:42] So it was fun. But then the conversation we had about that kind of double life personality that the main character, I think her name is Natalie, had, and then the reflections on motherhood and what we see online and how sometimes we're like, "Oh, we want to do that." And then it's like, "Yeah, but that's not real." Or maybe it is real. But we need to be really careful and ask a lot of questions and keep in mind that it's a produced video that we're seeing. And that's a huge part of the book.

But my friend Laura, I think, said it best for that book. She said, "Hated it. Five stars." Even if you hated the character, I think that book works best in community discussion. I can't imagine having read Yesteryear and not having a group of people to talk about it with for hours.

[00:29:44] ANNE: So nobody needs to hear my anecdotal experience with Yesteryear, but I'm about to share it anyway. So buzziest book of the year... honors. There has been no other book that I can recall ever where two friends have texted me five minutes apart and said, "Oh my gosh, Anne, have you read this? I just finished. We're talking about it with book club tomorrow. This was amazing," and, "Oh my gosh, Anne, have you read this? I despise this book. Why do people like it? It's my book club pick for next week." That's big feeling. They both love their conversations with their book club, by the way.

But also, I was out this weekend and a friend of mine said, "You work in books, right? Your job is books. I just finished Yesteryear. I need to talk about it. Are you my person? My brain is going to explode if I can't get some words out. Is that you?" I was like, "I feel like I've read it. You can tell me things you want." She said, "Where can I find someone who's read this book?" And I thought, "Well, you're a teacher."

LINDSEY: Everywhere.

ANNE: "You could probably whisper 'Yesteryear' in your class and like 2/3 of the heads in the room would swivel around. You could put a Post-It note on the teachers' lounge and say, 'Big thoughts, must share. Find me,' and you'd have a crowd."

[00:30:53] She said that she wasn't sure she wanted to admit to reading it in that setting.

SHANNAN: Oh, fair.

ANNE: So I said, "That was silly. Everybody's reading it. Like, it's not just you."

LINDSEY: Everybody's reading it.

ANNE: "It's never just you."

LINDSEY: I had a separate conversation with our pastor about it. She was on sabbatical, and we met up for coffee, and I was like, "Look, I'm not trying to make you be a minister right now. You're on sabbatical. Let's talk about Yesteryear." And talking about it with her was really a different conversation than with my book club, because my pastor really did not like Natalie. And I was like, "I think that's the point. We're not supposed to like Natalie." But that can be hard, because not every... Some people... I think if you have to have a character that you're rooting for, you should not read Yesteryear, because you're not... If that's going to make reading the book hard for you, life is only so long. You don't have to read all of the buzzy books.

[00:31:48] ANNE: But apparently you can read a book because it's buzzy and still learn something about yourself as a reader.

LINDSEY: Yes.

ANNE: And what you like in a reading experience-

LINDSEY: But it does go dark places, so...

ANNE: ...and what will really niggle at you?

LINDSEY: Sure.

ANNE: Or stronger, maybe. Do you all love a theme, like per the butter party, or is that just kind of a one-off?

LINDSEY: That was a one-off. I think in our best months, we would love to have a theme every month, but we don't. We do romance for Christmas. That is always a theme. It started a little on accident with a spicier book than intended. So we have done spicy romance for the last three years, but we don't like to eat spicy food or anything. We just have hot chocolate and cider and wear Christmas pajamas.

ANNE: Okay. That sounds fun.

LINDSEY: Oh, it's delightful.

ANNE: All right. Lindsey, tell us about a book that was not right for your book club, and we would like to hear what didn't work.

[00:32:50] LINDSEY: So the book that wasn't right for our book club was I Who Have Never Known Men by Jacqueline Harpman. And it didn't work because it was too literary. The premise was great. You know, this woman wakes up in, we think, a jail cell. There's no men. She's surrounded by women. She's constantly watched. What is going on? It's a great premise that sounds, in some ways, really contemporary.

Thematically I knew when I picked it that it would have some great connection points about feminism and modern womanhood, and what could this look like in an alternate reality? But it was just a little too out there in its presentation style. A lot of the moms that finished it, which wasn't actually that many, did not like that there wasn't really this resolution, that there was still a lot of ambiguity, is what they say.

[00:34:01] This is actually one that's maybe the only one in this book club that I've never finished. I had just read a similar book, well, a read-alike called The Wall that was also about an isolated woman, and that was part of the reason selfishly that I chose I Who Have Never Known Men, and it didn't land.

ANNE: I am wondering if quietly devastating and emotionally raw and merciless are just the wrong vibe for this group.

LINDSEY: Yes. I would say that is absolutely true. We don't mind a little bit of hope in our books.

ANNE: Don't mind as in it-

LINDSEY: We would prefer to have hope.

ANNE: If it's going to be bleak, it needs to have some moments of light or levity?

LINDSEY: Yes.

ANNE: Okay. So it doesn't have to come out on the balance towards hope, but like give you something.

[00:34:58] LINDSEY: Right. We did Talking at Night by Claire Daverley. I almost chose that one as a book that didn't work overall for the group because I think there was hope in it, but it was just a little too depressing throughout the book.

ANNE: I love that book. I'm so excited she finally has a new one. And also, I hear you. This is not the place for that kind of emotional balance.

LINDSEY: Mm-hmm.

ANNE: Okay. So, too far towards the bleak end of the spectrum? Or too much time in the bleak end of the spectrum.

LINDSEY: True.

ANNE: Okay. Okay, what have y'all been reading lately?

LINDSEY: With the theme of buzzy books this year, we just finished Strangers by Belle Burden. We actually met, well, as of this recording, like two nights ago.

ANNE: Okay. Fresh in mind.

[00:36:03] LINDSEY: And talked about that. That was another great discussion that people could join without having read the book if we just say, "Hey, this is about a couple during the pandemic. Wife finds out the husband cheated on her, and then he leaves, and in her experience, his entire personality changes. He becomes a stranger. Thoughts and feelings around that." That was an easy entry point for people.

But then was also just fun to have a conversation around... Well, again, fun may not be the right word. But interesting to have a conversation around that being somebody else's experience and how blindsiding that would be. But then also, a couple of the moms brought up, like, "Well, you know, I don't know that I have all of our financial passwords. You know, if this happened to me, or even if there was a terrible accident, I would like to know more financial information about my family."

ANNE: Like it's a big "what if".

[00:37:10] LINDSEY: Right. So that book just brings that up for people. So that was a great conversation. And everybody found it very compelling, even if we couldn't figure out why we all wanted to keep reading it. The number of moms that said, "I read that in two days," or, "I read that so fast," that was nice. Like, whatever about the writing style. And I think it's because it was so conversational, so approachable. It was originally written for, I think it was the Modern Love column. And so I think just that style of writing is really easy to digest even if the topic's difficult.

ANNE: I don't know if you went there, but there's also a conversation to be had about who gets to tell the story.

LINDSEY: We did.

ANNE: Okay.

LINDSEY: My friend Jordan kept saying, "But what is left out? But what's not in this book?" Which is such a helpful, I think any time you read a book...

[00:38:11] ANNE: Everybody needs a Jordan in their book club.

LINDSEY: Right?

ANNE: That's a good question.

LINDSEY: You need to know. And same thing, I think, like bringing us back to Yesteryear, when you're looking at social media, what's left out? What are you not seeing? And even analyzing our own digital input that we're receiving, I think is really important. And books like Yesteryear, and even books like Strangers can bring up. And we had great conversations around motherhood because our definitions of motherhood look very different than the way motherhood is presented in some ways in Strangers. And so we were able to have a conversation about that.

ANNE: And the legacies of the men and women in that family, I think she talks about specifically. You get to throw in a few comments about just like $18 million homes and...

[00:39:03] LINDSEY: I'm not trying to throw Belle Burden under a bus.

ANNE: Who gets custody of the yacht club.

LINDSEY: ...because she's already been thrown under, you know? But I mean, obviously there's this huge privilege component in that book that I think she addresses in the pages of the book. Does she address it as well as some of the news articles have? No.

ANNE: I just meant it's like a fantasy. Like it could be fun to talk about.

LINDSEY: Oh, it was so fun to talk about.

ANNE: All right, Lindsey, we are going to recap. Y'all loved, and this is your book club, because that's what we're focused on today, What Kind of Paradise by Janelle Brown, Untamed by Glennon Doyle, and Yesteryear by Caro Claire Burke. I Who Have Never Known Men by Jacqueline Harpman was not for you, and lately Strangers by Belle Burden has prompted an excellent conversation. I'm seeing a mix of fiction and non. Is that typical in a place you are interested in continuing in the future?

[00:40:04] LINDSEY: Yes. Overall we read mostly fiction, but it's been a while. I think part of the reason I chose Strangers was it had been a while since we'd done nonfiction. I think predominantly we will stay reading fiction and not switch to predominantly reading nonfiction, but I do like the mix. Like a couple mixed in every year of the 12 months of the year isn't a bad balance.

ANNE: Okay. And today I'm going to tell you what I hear we're looking for, and I want to hear what you would add to it. We're looking for books that may be very topical, that invite conversation on those topics without people necessarily having to read the book. And it's helpful to know that if you come to book club you might get spoilers. That's the agreement you all have arrived at. But you'd want people to be able to come, sometimes on short notice, and show up and have a great conversation that they will still be able to participate in, differently, but will be able to participate in whether or not at that moment in time they have read the book. I imagine lots of people who haven't read or finished the book leave and definitely want to read it because of the conversation.

LINDSEY: I would hope so.

[00:41:20] ANNE: So you would welcome, but I don't think it's a disqualifier not to have these, but books related to family and motherhood or that discuss big picture questions about the life stage that you all have in common and raising kids. What do we need to add? Discussable, shareable, great conversation discussability, very, very important. What else?

LINDSEY: I think you nailed it.

ANNE: Ooh, and the emotional tone.

LINDSEY: Yes.

ANNE: Okay.

LINDSEY: And with the caveat that I have to actually want to read it.

ANNE: Important note. Shannan, I hear you. Shannan, we're going to turn to you. Now readers, about half of our team reviews are What Should I Read Next? submissions, and we're looking for topics. We're looking at different life experiences and places around the world, and all kinds of variety that the actual reader is bringing to us.

[00:42:17] We're looking for books we haven't featured before, and we've been keeping an eye out for questions that maybe I'm not the best person to answer, but a team member can really speak to. Now, often this means a deep dive into romantasy or science fiction and fantasy, but Shannan, when you saw Lindsey's submission, you went, "Hang on. I have things to share."

SHANNAN: I might have some ideas. Yes.

ANNE: Handing the mic to you. Say more.

SHANNAN: Because of the Rocket City Mom Virtual Book Club that I ran for 10 years, I saw her submission, and I looked at it, I looked at the books that you liked, and I said, "Hmm, I've read some of those. Discussable. I think I have thoughts." So I sent your submission to Anne and said, "Hey, I have some ideas."

[00:43:09] Now, listening to you talk, I'm like, "I'm not sure whether these ideas are going to work for you as a whole," and I'm a little nervous about it, but I think they will. Also, we have this thing about being in Alabama. Red State. Also moms. And my book club at the time, we did shy away from the literary reads, so I thought, "I have a good list of about 60 books that Rocket City Mom has read, the Rocket City Mom Virtual Book Club read, and let me pull from those that I think might be interesting to you." So what I am presenting is backlist titles, and they would be good for your availability that you mentioned for all the members of the book club.

LINDSEY: Yes.

SHANNAN: However, if you all are readers, there is a chance that you have read some of these titles that I am going to present, on a personal level, and even maybe for book club. If you read it for book club, let me know. But on a personal level, when I looked at these selections, I said, Even if I've read it personally, I would want to reread it again for book club with the theme of motherhood, family, and those in my mind, which would make for a very different reading experience than if I just read it without that in mind. So that's a caveat I'm asking you to consider.

[00:44:40] As I was prepping this list, I'm very proud of the list, I have to say, and I kept saying, "I need to reread this. I need to reread this." And honestly, a lot of these on my list I have read twice already, and I want to reread them again. So...

LINDSEY: So if I pick them, you're just going to drive down from Huntsville to Birmingham and join the book club for the night.

SHANNAN: Don't tempt me with a good time, Lindsey. Don't tempt me with a good time. I believe the ones that I have selected will help with the theme. You can discuss on a theme. With Rocket City Mom Virtual Book Club, I always included at least one question. And remember, this was virtual and we did it typing on a computer. This was virtual before 2014 about is when we started this. But I always included a question that would get people to talking, and you didn't have to read the book to answer the question. So I'm bearing that in mind with the selections that I have here.

LINDSEY: Perfect.

[00:45:45] SHANNAN: The other thing I wanted to say about my selections are I'm leaning more toward you reading in being your full self. Not just motherhood issues. Your pick of Janelle Brown with technology and that conversation, that's great. My selections will look at more the full experience of a woman who happens to be a mother.

The Rocket City Mom Virtual Book Club really did not focus specifically on motherhood problems, but the full woman. I feel, this is my own personal soapbox, that as mothers we get kind of stuck in, ooh, mothers and children. It's always about the mother and always about the... You know, not the mother, I'm sorry. It's always about the children, and what I need to do for the child, and then I have the husband over here who's also, you know, needy and needing things. And a lot of what I read is mothers losing themselves. So my picks are going to be more toward that full self... and not just mother. So those are the little caveats that I have for my selections. I hope they work for you.

LINDSEY: No, I think that's great.

SHANNAN: Okay. Okay.

[00:47:05] ANNE: Okay. Shannan, love your criteria. What is your first recommendation for Lindsey?

SHANNAN: Okay. So I read a lot of nonfiction, Lindsey, and I love a good memoir. So I will say, if you have not, and this is a bonus pick, I'm starting with a bonus, if you have not read any Mary Laura Philpott... Okay, you're nodding. I can see you.

LINDSEY: I am. Sorry.

SHANNAN: Have you read any Mary Laura Philpott?

LINDSEY: Our book club did Bomb Shelter early on.

SHANNAN: Okay, good.

LINDSEY: And then maybe also I Miss You When I Blink.

SHANNAN: Great. Okay. So the main one that I have that's nonfiction, is Year of Yes: How to Dance, Stand in the Sun and Be Your Own Person by Shonda Rhimes. Have you read this one, Lindsey?

LINDSEY: I have not, and the book club hasn't either.

[00:47:59] SHANNAN: Awesome. So for those who don't know, this book came out in 2015. Shonda Rhimes is the force behind Grey's Anatomy, Scandal, and most recently Bridgerton. I am bringing this because she's also a woman of color, to bring some diversity to the book club selections, and it was the very first book that the Rocket City Mom Virtual Book Club read when we started it in 2014, 2015, so it has a special place in my heart.

It is about Rhimes' year-long commitment to saying yes to things that she would have normally said no. I was definitely with a newborn at the time when I read this book. And I was like, "No to everything. I am floundering. I can barely keep my head above water." But it was so great. It's funny. Laugh out loud funny. I was reading it and my husband had to stop asking me what was so funny, because he was asking me, like, every few minutes, and I'd be like, "This," and then, you know, finally he was like, "Okay, that's a funny book. I don't need to hear about all of that."

[00:49:19] But it's also poignant. I will say it's small as well. It's easy to read because Shonda Rhimes writes in a very conversational style. She could be sitting right next to you. The stories and anecdotes and chapters are very short. As a mom, it's great. You can pick it up and put it down. You can discuss, as you described when you were discussing Untamed. You can just read a story or a chapter and then have something to talk about. So that's what I think why I'm thinking it would be great for you.

The stories are about her life and how she became Shonda Rhimes, but also ultimately it's about taking care of oneself, and as moms, that's something we tend to leave out a lot. Including health, being the good girl, being afraid, and of course, motherhood. This is a very easy path to entry for a conversation. Highly, highly discussable. There's some things that I was like, "I'm not sure I agree with that," and then there were some things where like totally get that, changed my perspective on. I always love books that make me think differently about something. And there was a lot of that.

[00:50:34] While I was preparing for this, I was reviewing the book, and I noticed all of my highlights, and I was like, "Wow, I need a reminder about this stuff," because I think in the 10 years-ish that I have first read it, I've forgotten it. So I think that would be great for your book club.

Shonda Rhimes also reads the book, and though I haven't heard it on audio, it seems like it would be really great for moms who are trying to get everything done and still participate.

LINDSEY: Oh, that's great. I think something I failed to mention is that we have a number of moms that are audio-only or frequently do audiobooks or mix them in. We have a run club right now. I'm a reluctant new runner due to the FOMO that I have over not running with my friends, and I have recently joined the audiobook while running crowd. So it's great to know that there's a good one on audio.

[00:51:39] SHANNAN: Yes, I think this would be good. Anne, have you read this one on... Do you have any experience on audio?

ANNE: This was in the Summer Reading Guide a very long time ago when it first came out.

SHANNAN: I've forgotten that.

ANNE: But I read the print.

SHANNAN: Okay.

ANNE: But it's compact and punchy and packed with stuff you want to talk about with your friends, or your new friends, or the people you're connecting with for the first time through a book.

LINDSEY: I think it sounds great. I'm really excited. Because I don't know that I would have gone... I wouldn't have gone that far back in the summer reading guide for some reason. Because I've looked through past ones, but maybe in the process of looking I just get stuck with great ideas and I'm like, "Oh, I'm only in 2019."

[00:52:22] ANNE: And then you could have a movie night and watch Scandal together. Or at least the first episode.

SHANNAN: Or Bridgerton.

LINDSEY: Or Bridgerton. Yeah. We could do a... Okay, this is great. We could do... Y'all, I love Bridgerton. You don't even know how much I love some Bridgerton. So this would be an easy way to do a Bridgerton-themed night without actually making people read Bridgerton.

SHANNAN: It would. It would. Very.

ANNE: I hear y'all like a theme.

SHANNAN: This book was written before Bridgerton, so keep that in mind as well. All right. So that was Year of Yes.

ANNE: What else sounds good for Lindsey's book club?

SHANNAN: Okay. So, man, have you all read What Alice Forgot by Liane Moriarty?

LINDSEY: I have read What Alice Forgot, but our book club, at least this iteration of this book... I think... okay, I have read What Alice Forgot. I do not think our book club has.

SHANNAN: Okay.

LINDSEY: That's the one where she falls on the treadmill. Correct?

SHANNAN: Yes.

LINDSEY: Has amnesia.

[00:53:22] SHANNAN: Alice hits her head, develops amnesia, and can't remember the last 10 years of her life. I will have to say, this one might have warranted the most discussion in our book club. The premise of… she's in the gym, but when she wakes up, she's like, "Why am I in the gym? I hate the gym. And why am I..." You know, very, very thin. You know? And she finds out that she's getting divorced, you know, and she has three kids. She was pregnant with the first one at the time that she remembers, and she's lost the entire decade. And she thinks she loves her husband, but now she's getting a divorce. How did that happen is...

I mean, you could just talk about this for days with a book club. It is so highly discussable, and it is a page-turner. If you start it, you will probably have to finish it. I do not think this is one that everyone would need to have read to discuss, which is one of the reasons why I'm bringing it to you. And it really, really, really makes you think about 10 years before. For me, Buddy Man was a baby. I was in the thick of it. Like, how have things changed with my marriage and my relationships with my friends, etc., etc. Anne, I can see... Now y'all are getting behind the scenes. I can see Anne wants to say something.

[00:54:57] ANNE: Well, I'm just thinking about 10 years before when I finished my library book on the couch in one afternoon. But also the question is such a good one. Like, how does your life get away from you? And how incrementally do you wander away from the things that were once so important to you?

SHANNAN: Yeah. I don't know if you're familiar with the song by Adele, Go Easy On Me, Baby, but she talks about, "I didn't have the chance to choose what I chose to do." That is a line in how you just kind of shift away by degree, and then you wind up somewhere that you never really thought of.

LINDSEY: Somewhere totally different.

SHANNAN: Totally different than where you were aiming. This book brings that to the fore, and I think that a conversation with other mothers about life and what they thought and how they imagined things would be very good for a whole person, full self-book club conversation.

[00:55:56] LINDSEY: I love that. And I really love that that is, number one, a backlist title that will be easier for people to get, but that it's a book I'm more familiar with, because I've read it, and since often my... I love having a busy reading life, but often I do have a busy reading life. And so it being a book that I've read before and that some other moms have probably read before could be a really fun way.

Plus, I would love to be a re-reader, and most of the time I'm just not because I move on to the next and on to the next. And so intentionally rereading with the book club, with so many of those questions you mentioned in mind, I think would be really fun for me as a reader.

SHANNAN: Awesome.

LINDSEY: And we've established that's half the point of the book club. Selfishly.

SHANNAN: Okay.

ANNE: Sounds good.

[00:56:58] SHANNAN: I have two more in mind, but these are, as Anne said, to me, these are my not confident picks. And they're a little bit different. So...

LINDSEY: I'm excited.

SHANNAN: How do you feel... I was trying to decide if I'm going to pick from the two or if I'm just going to give you the two. Okay, I think I'll just give you the two. Do you guys read thrillers?

LINDSEY: We have before.

SHANNAN: Okay.

LINDSEY: I don't know that we read gory.

SHANNAN: Good. Have you read The Expats by Chris Pavone?

LINDSEY: No.

SHANNAN: All right. This was written in 2012. It is an Edgar Award winner, and it is a thriller. Kate is a newly minted but floundering stay-at-home mom. It's not a spoiler to say that she's a spy. She's a former spy, and she has given up that role to go with her husband to Luxembourg for his job. Some neighbors move around across the street. She's suspicious. Her husband starts acting weird, and before long she's just swept up in it all.

[00:58:17] I love this for your book club because it is not that heavy. You're not discussing heavy themes. It could be a more fun read. I'm thinking you probably will want most people to have read this to discuss it. But one of the things that was fascinating for me is that it's written by Chris Pavone, who is a man, and he himself became an expat and the stay-at-home parent when he moved for his wife's work.

When I was reading it, I was in the throes of, you know, that malaise of toddlers and just the relentlessness and the never-ending requests and things to do. And I really connected with the way that he wrote Kate. And then I was like, in my mind, you know, stereotypical, I'm like, "How is this man getting this so well onto the page?" Well, it turns out he's experienced it.

I thought that was an interesting dynamic, and I think that would be interesting to discuss in book club, like if a male or father had to take over this role, would he feel the same as the mothers do when they're taking over the role. Interesting, interesting conversation.

[00:59:35] When I was reviewing my notes, I discovered that I had abandoned this one before I became a mom because I couldn't relate. I was like, "Okay, ugh, duh." But then I picked it up after becoming a mom, and the rest is history. I love it so much. It was laugh-out-loud funny, and it was refreshingly absent of a lot of violence and gore. It really doesn't have that, and I really noticed that, oh, there's not that much there.

A theme or topic that could be discussed with the book club is maintaining who you are, who you were, while trying to be a mom. Of course, there's balancing the job, the husband, the kids, and it's still in your spy. It's a spy thriller, so it's fun.

There is a sequel. If you enjoyed it, you could read the sequel, which I also liked. And I also enjoyed Pavone's writing style. The way he tells a story is very interesting, and I love the way he strings sentences together. I loved it. I've read it twice after I abandoned it that first time, and I think that could just be a little fun pick for the book club.

[01:00:52] LINDSEY: That sounds really great. I actually didn't know about that one. His name is familiar to me from the podcast. I've had many a book on hold at the library, and then I think there's still... I think The Doorman is still in my Libby suspensions right now, with formats, the Kindle and the audio, because that's the best way to read, is all the formats at once. But you gotta have some library serendipity to make that happen.

SHANNAN: Okay. The final book is The Ten Thousand Doors of January by Alix E. Harrow.

ANNE: I love that you're bringing in Alix Harrow.

SHANNAN: Are you familiar with this one, Lindsey?

LINDSEY: The title is familiar. What else did Alix Harrow write?

ANNE: Oh, a bunch of Shannan's favorite books.

SHANNAN: Yes. The Once and Future Witches-

[01:01:41] LINDSEY: Is there a really pretty cover one?

SHANNAN: Oh, yes, all of her books have really pretty covers.

LINDSEY: Okay.

SHANNAN: The Everlasting is the most recent one.

LINDSEY: Yes, Sarah Bessey put it on one of her best-of book lists. I got it from the library and didn't read it.

SHANNAN: Okay. The Ten Thousand Doors of January is Alix's debut novel. She writes a lot of short stories, and in fact, her short story, The Ransom of Miss Coraline, is fantastic for moms. I mean, just love that story. And I don't think I'm naming it correctly. We'll put it correctly in the show notes. But that is just a fantastic story for a mom.

[01:02:35] However, like I said, The Ten Thousand Doors of January is her debut, and you said you were open to surprise, so this is my surprise pick. My caveat is I cannot say too much about mommydom and motherhood, because it might spoil some things. This is one your book club will probably have to read in order to have a really great conversation. Again, might not be accessible in that way. However, I still think it could work.

It is gentle fantasy, so there is doors, there are magical things happen. But Alix has an academic background, so she weaves history, I believe this one is set... is this one set in Kentucky? It might start out in Kentucky, and magic throughout. And the way she does this, it never ceases to amaze me. So you're having conversations about colonialism, and being an oddity, and being something that people want to collect. Because it's set in 1800s where a lot of wealthy white men were going around and collecting artifacts from different countries, and weaving magic into that story is just amazing.

[01:04:02] She's not heavy-handed with what she is saying, but you can pick up little threads, and they're worth having a conversation about. Gorgeously written. I just love the way she sends strings sentence words together to form sentences. Just amazing. It may take a few chapters to get into it, because I started it twice and was like, "Hmm." But once you get in, you will keep going, because you want to know what happens. It's worth it. I love everything she writes. I'm one book away from being a completist, and I have read this one twice.

LINDSEY: Okay.

SHANNAN: Anne, you have anything to add to that? I feel like... you know, when I love a book so much, I feel like I don't do it justice when I'm trying to talk about it.

ANNE: I'll just say that I did not have a hard time getting into it, I think because I listened to the audio, which I often find it easier.

SHANNAN: Oh, awesome.

[01:05:05] ANNE: I feel immersed right away. I have more sensory input to make me feel like I'm in that world.

LINDSEY: I think that one sounds really fun, and I like that it... We've done a few fantasy... Okay, maybe really only Fourth Wing because, you know, everybody was reading it. Everybody was reading it, and so it just became this fun thing. But not a lot of mo... Well, we were about half and half. Some moms were like, "Absolutely not. I'm never doing that." And that was fine because we just had fun. But this is not that kind of fantasy at all.

SHANNAN: No.

LINDSEY: This is more… sounds like more light magical realism. Maybe?

SHANNAN: I would say so, yeah. But in a little bit deeper-

ANNE: It's a portal.

SHANNAN: ...than magical realism. I did have a magical realism pick, but I'll show you off camera.

ANNE: Thank you, Shannan. All right, I have some ideas. Do you think I can do it fast?

SHANNAN: No. But sure. All right. Let's go, Anne.

[01:06:08] ANNE: Lindsey, not backlist, but Dolly All the Time by Annabel Monaghan.

LINDSEY: Oh, it's so good.

ANNE: Have you read it already?

LINDSEY: I read it. The book club did not.

ANNE: Here's what I like about that for book club. Well, okay, in Modern Mrs Darcy Book Club this summer, one astute reader pointed out that our accidental theme we hit upon that was invisible to me until she highlighted it was we had three books in which absent mothers featured prominently in the story by their absence, either because the adult daughter consciously wanted better for herself and her own children and her relationships, or because she was just knocked down by this void in her life and either could or couldn't see how it was harming her, but didn't know what to do about it.

The other two books were Sisters of a Halved Heart by Tara Roy and The Great Wherever by Shannon Sanders. But I like Dolly All the Time because it's romance and it's fun.

LINDSEY: Oh, it's so fun.

[01:07:04] ANNE: One of my favorite parts of the book is where... Dolly loves to bake, and she talks about how one of the best ways she knows to show love is to leave the butter on the counter overnight, and wake up in the morning, and cream it together with eggs and flour and sugar, and make something delicious. And I want to come to the book club where everybody whips up something delicious and brings it, and we all get to share.

LINDSEY: That would be really fun. It might actually in reality look more like everybody picking something up from Trader Joe's. But...

SHANNAN: Still delicious.

LINDSEY: But would also love the homemade version.

ANNE: I feel like a Trader Joe's act... Or, no, I feel like a Trader Joe's run can also be an act of great love-

LINDSEY: Oh, absolutely.

ANNE: ...or and friendship. So I would love that for you all. There's so much fun stuff to discuss. And she's the parent to a tween who she wants good things for. Oh, you know what I love about this book? Is that Dolly takes good care of herself and takes good care of her kid. They are not in competition-

LINDSEY: She does.

[01:07:59] ANNE: ...in the story. I love for you really anything by Elizabeth Acevedo. I think I've had her on the brain because I talked about her work not too long ago on the podcast, and I read her new one that I... Let me think. When is this airing? I will have talked about in Fall Book Preview by the time y'all are listening to this episode. But I love Clap When You Land for you all.

The thing about YA novels is you get old, and you read them like the grownup you are. And you might see yourself in the role of the parent or see how these children's actions and thoughts, and how the presence or absence of the adults in their lives are messing with them. And I think you can learn a lot about yourself as a parent when you think about what it is you need and have gotten or need and don't get.

But, oh, also she is incredible on audio. She's a poet. So good with the rhythm, reads her own work. Amazing. But this was inspired by and is dedicated to the memory of the passengers on the American Airlines flight that crashed in like November 2001. At the time, everybody thought, "Oh, is it terrorism?" And it wasn't terrorism, it was a terrible accident. But the plane crashed, and I believe killed all passengers at this moment in time.

[01:09:17] So that's the historical leaping off point. But Acevedo imagines two teenage girls unknown to each other because their father has been living a double life, going back and forth between the DR and the US. So this ends up being a story about secrets and sisterhood and family, and the good things a parent can give to a child even while failing the child in massive ways.

You get to see hidden resources in the face of great loss and surprising joy, and just a thorny mess of a situation. Like, what if, and then what do you do next? But there's so much to potentially talk about here.

Then finally, I'm wondering about some vintage Taylor Jenkins Reid. The book I have in mind is the last one she wrote before she took her career in entirely different direction. And I've said before, I'm still so curious about the backstory behind this pivot. But the book is One True Loves. It was the last one published before The Seven Husbands of Evelyn Hugo. But One True Loves, have you read it?

[01:10:24] LINDSEY: I have not. It's another one that is currently in my Libby suspense list.

ANNE: What? How? Okay, amazing, discussable premise. You do not have to have read the book to know... And also, part of what might feel a big spoiler is baked into the plot. You're going to talk about it immediately. But it's about this woman who meets her husband, I don't remember how young, but meets her husband, they're in love. I think this one came out in 2014. It's about a young woman who is in love with her husband. They're adventurous. They travel the world together. I think they might work for a travel magazine thing. And he is on a helicopter alone when it goes down over the Pacific. He's dead, no question. She mourns. She goes on with her life.

There's this amazing, beautiful favorite scene I still think of often where her husband just died. She reads a book in which the husband dies, and she's like, "I hate everything. Everything is terrible. My books have failed me. This is awful." Oh, her parents own a bookstore, which is super fun, and the plot...

LINDSEY: Oh, fun.

[01:11:30] ANNE: ...you know, fun little details. But then she comes downstairs one night, and her parents are reading a big stack of novels, and they can hand them to her with confidence all at once and say, "No husbands die in these books. We love you." Aw. So sweet. But it turns out after she has gotten her life together and finally healed a little bit and is moving on and maybe finding love again, her husband's not dead. He comes back. And then you got to talk about it with all your book club friends.

LINDSEY: Yes. Yes. And again, you know, someone who's read the book can give that pitch that you just gave, and even if people show up and they're like, "Oh, I didn't get to... you know, I'm just here for the fun and the vibes," they can say like, "Oh my gosh, if that happened to me, X, Y, Z." Or you can learn a little bit about people if it's like, "Oh, if that boyfriend you had in college that you thought you were going to marry.", you know? I think it can tell you a lot about people. But yeah, I think that sounds very fun.

ANNE: And if that sounds sensational, underlying the dilemma is, how do we become the people we are? Like, how do the good and bad things we've been through shape us and make... Like, would we be the same person if that wonderful thing didn't happen to us, but also if that tragedy didn't befall us?

[01:12:59] LINDSEY: Those are the best kind of questions.

ANNE: Yeah. All right, Lindsey, we talked about a lot of books today. Year of Yes by Shonda Rhimes, What Alice Forgot by Liane Moriarty, The Expats by Chris Pavone, The Ten Thousand Doors of January by Alix E. Harrow, Dolly All the Time by Annabel Monaghan, Clap When You Land by Elizabeth Acevedo, and number seven, One True Loves by Taylor Jenkins Reid. That's not even all the books we talked about. That's just our final list that you haven't read in book club. What are you thinking? How are you feeling? What might be on the horizon for book club?

LINDSEY: Probably all seven of them at this point. Y'all just made my life a lot easier for the next seven months. But the first thing I thought when Shannan shared Year of Yes was how perfect that would be for January.

SHANNAN: Yes, absolutely.

[01:13:52] LINDSEY: I mean, just very stereotypical, right? Like, you're starting a new year, that's a year of yes, but I love that sort of lineup of books with calendar markings. I mean, that one, I know... I've already mentally slotted it into... I know exactly what we're doing. In January, we're doing Year of Yes by Shonda Rhimes.

SHANNAN: So glad to hear it.

LINDSEY: And I hope other people will do it with me.

SHANNAN: So glad to hear it.

ANNE: That sounds amazing. We are happy to help. This has been a pleasure. Shannan, thank you for joining me.

SHANNAN: Thank you for having me.

ANNE: And Lindsey, thank you so much for bringing yourself and your book club request our way.

LINDSEY: It was so much fun. I wish the whole book club could have been here.

ANNE: Next time.

[01:14:43] Hey, readers. I hope you enjoyed our conversation with Lindsey today, and I would love to hear what you think she should read next. Find Lindsey on Instagram at the links in our show notes, where we've also collected the full list of titles talked about today. That list is at whatshouldireadnextpodcast.com.

Follow our show on Instagram @whatshouldireadnext. We love to see your posts and stories about the books you've discovered thanks to our show.

Sign up for email updates at whatshouldireadnextpodcast.com/newsletter, and stay in the loop about upcoming events, new episodes, and more.

And we would love to have you join us on Patreon, whether you'd love to hear weekly bonus episodes and more from me, Shannan, and our whole team, or you're excited to hear episodes like today's without the ads. Find out more and see all the options at patreon.com/whatshouldireadnext.

[01:15:32] Thanks to the people who make this show happen. What Should I Read Next? is created each week by executive producer Will Bogel, Media production specialist Holly Wielkoszewski, social media manager and editor Leigh Kramer, community coordinator Brigid Misselhorn, community manager and today's co-host, Shannan Malone, and our whole team at What Should I Read Next? and Modern Mrs. Darcy HQ. Plus the audio whizzes at Studio D Podcast Production.

Readers, that's it for this episode. Thanks so much for listening. And as Rainer Maria Rilke said, "Ah, how good it is to be among people who are reading." Happy reading, everyone.

[00:00:00] WILL BOGEL: I find this very funny because you were saying, like, "Not everybody reads like me." Yeah, that's not me at all. I mean, I barely have a to-be-read list, and most of the time I don't even know what's on it. Like, I don't know where... I thought, "Oh, I should add that onto my TBR," and I don't know where...

ANNE BOGEL: Oh my gosh. I'm thinking of the year where you opened your reading journal and were like, "Wait a second, is my scale four stars or five stars? I don't even know."

Hey readers, I'm Anne Bogel, and this is What Should I Read Next?. Welcome to the show that's dedicated to answering the question that plagues every reader, what should I read next? We don't get bossy on this show. What we will do here is give you the information you need to choose your next read.

[00:00:49] We say that at the start of every episode, but that is the ethos behind everything we do. And especially behind big things like our Fall Book Preview, which we just recorded for you last week. So this week we're hoping we give you info to choose your next reads. Plural.

Today, I'm talking all things fall books with our executive producer, Will Bogel. We are going to discuss the Fall Book Preview today. Things like where the idea came from when we started, how it's changed, what we're doing this year, and why.

We just dropped it last Thursday, which means you can now get yours at modernmrsdarcy.com/FBP for Fall Book Preview for a la carte access. But to preemptively answer a frequently asked question, members of our Patreon community in the Books and Events or all-inclusive tiers get the Fall Book Preview as an included membership perk. This is a great time to become a member, obviously for the Fall Book Preview, but also our upcoming bonus episodes, which I happen to know are quite good. And in just a couple of months, our team's Best Books of the Year event is a real fan favorite and will be included in your membership.

[00:02:01] Today, we're talking all things fall books. Not getting ahead of ourselves, William, thank you for joining me to talk about Fall Book Preview.

WILL: I'm so glad to be here. This week I'm kind of all Fall Book Preview. So now that it's finally here, we're gearing up.

ANNE: You really have a unique perspective on this because you've been behind the scenes of Modern Mrs Darcy and What Should I Read Next? since before these things were publicly out there on the interwebs and in the real world. I mean, you've been part of the Fall Book Preview ride from the beginning right now. I think you should tell everybody why you're all Fall Book Preview all the time this week that we're recording.

WILL: This specific week. There's a lot of prep work, and we do plenty of things. I guess I probably start at the very beginning kind of planning stuff. And then you and the designer kind of get going on like, what's it going to look like, how much you can include, and what are the features?

ANNE: You should have a sounding board on your business card.

[00:02:59] WILL: I don't have a lot to do there. You say, "Hey, can I talk to you about these things?" And then you talk, and I just sit there, and you're like, "Yeah, thanks." I was like, "Well-

ANNE: How many times did I say, quote, "Thank you for verbally processing that with me."

WILL: Verbal processing. I was like, "I didn't do anything, but I'm glad I could help." And then as we get really close to time for the Fall Book Preview, there's a lot of technical stuff. What do we do with the PDFs? How do we share it with people? Let's load some emails into our email provider so that we can deliver it to people, posting it on our website. There's just a lot of... I don't know how many tasks I have in a normal week, but I opened our task management today, and this week is just nuts. But most of them only take a couple of minutes, because they're just a simple change. It's like, don't forget, you know?

But today, and the next maybe two days, I'm also prepping up a whole lot of merch to go out. So I am stuffing envelopes, and printing labels, and sticking things, and... yeah. I'm not exactly working at my computer. I'm just kinda, like, standing over the dining room table.

[00:03:59] ANNE: Sweatshirts, and stickers, and well-read hats, oh my. And that's not even counting the 1,000-plus Fall Book Preview lookbooks. Physical, hold-in-your-hands, delivered-by-snail-mail lookbooks that are getting shipped out this week.

WILL: That are getting shipped. That was passive voice. That I am shipping out. But yeah. I like how you said that in a passive voice. But yes, I am shipping out.

ANNE: Well, our boys and I are helping too.

WILL: Oh, around 1,000 lookbooks.

ANNE: But yeah, you are the fulfillment center.

WILL: Fulfillment center.

ANNE: And we're going to be eating on the couch this week. I love eating on the couch. I'm not sad about it.

WILL: And that's my week, so that's why I'm all Fall Book Preview all the time. But I think you are, too. What exactly, the sort of leading up to the actual day that we send out the email and we do unboxing, what are you doing?

[00:04:47] ANNE: Oh, well, that's funny. Here's what happens. Every year, I wrap the content on our PDF lookbook. Last year we had a physical lookbook that you could get. We had it professionally printed. You could get it in the mail. We are test-driving doing this for... I mean, it was good for its own sake, but we also wanted to see if we could print and mail the Summer Reading Guide and how that would go, and Fall Book Preview was a nice test case.

But every year I send all that in, and I think, "Whoo, I'm done," and then I realize, no, I gotta get ready to decide the very most important things I want to tell you at Unboxing, which by the time you're listening, happened on Thursday, September 17th. So really what I do this week is talk to myself, just thinking about what I want to say, and then I'll test run it through and realize, oh, well, that's five minutes of talking about books. And I really only have 90 seconds to... I mean, I will spend up to four minutes on a certain title, but I can't do that for every title, or we would be at Unboxing for like four hours. It's going to be right around 90 minutes. The video you'll get is right around 90 minutes.

[00:05:58] We say this is casual, unscripted book talk. I have learned it goes better if I practice what I want to say, and then what happens is I show up rehearsed with all my notes, and I throw them out the window and just speak from the heart. But it does go better if I prep in advance. So, yeah, I'm talking to myself about books this week, to make a long story short.

And it's tough because there's so much I want to say about every book. And I'm just really counting on having really great questions from our readers so I get to talk more about the books I want to talk about. But they will show up in the future on the podcast and in bonus episodes, and I'll talk about them in Modern Mrs Darcy Book Club, and I bet we'll invite an author or two to join us in that space. And I'll be talking about these books for years, beginning with Unboxing.

WILL: You're very time-limited for Unboxing, but I'm sure you'll get a chance to talk about these books again and again.

[00:06:50] ANNE: It's hard to believe that the first year we did Fall Book Preview in 2019 I just sat down with a stack of books next to me and just talked about them with... I don't remember doing any preparation. I mean, I don't remember everything crystal clear that happened in September 2019, but I don't believe I did a lot of prep.

The original vision for Fall Book Preview, and this is a story I've told before, so maybe you're hearing it for the first time, and maybe you've heard it every Fall Book Preview since, but thank you for your grace. What happened was I went to the Southern Independent Bookstore Alliance, SIBA, fall trade show, and it wasn't the first year I'd been. I think I started going every year beginning in like 2015. But that year I went for Don't Overthink It, which was coming out March 3rd, 2020. Please hear that date and just take a big sigh along with me.

[00:07:50] But I went to promote that book. But, you know, I've been going with my Modern Mrs. Darcy and What Should I Read Next? hat on for years. What I love about that event, aside from getting to talk to other readers and hearing the scoop from the booksellers and meeting the authors, is just getting a bead on how publishers are feeling about the season to come, because tons of publishers are there talking to booksellers about what they might want to carry in their stores in the next three to nine months.

And I love a good look behind the scenes. I like to see how the books that I love get not only written, but also marketed and positioned and sold at every step of the process. And I thought it would be so fascinating, because we have a community that shares this interest, not every single individual, but I think on whole. We like to know how things come to pass in the literary landscape.

[00:08:50] So I was coming back with a dispatch from what it was like. Like, what did I hear about? What were the big titles publishers were really buzzing about? But also, what were some that the reps were saying, "You want to hear about the dark horse that I love?" I was there for all of it, and I knew many of you would be, too. So I came back with my enormous stack of books that got handed to me at SIBA, and I stacked them up next to the chair and my mic where I'm sitting right now, and I just flashed them at you one by one and told you the stories I'd heard and what I knew. If I'd already read the book on the plane or in the week or so since I got back from... I almost said Fall Book Preview, because it felt like a Fall Book Preview. Like I could speak from that personal experience, but really I was the conduit by which you were hearing about what it would've been like to be at this big industry event.

[00:09:40] And it's really evolved since then. This year, 2026, will be our eighth, and I mean, the spirit is there, but it's not like that anymore. Because this is very much our... and I use the royal "we" a lot when the person choosing the books is me. It's our book preview because we feature team picks, and we consistently have done that for years now. And also because putting this thing together and putting it in your hands is very much a whole, and I mean whole team effort.

WILL: I was going to ask you how it's changed over the years. But your prep time, thinking about that, we always tell people, guests, I guess, you're assuring them that they're the experts in their own reading life. So they come on What Should I Read Next?, and they're like, "Well, I don't know how to talk about this. I'm not..." You say, "You know what? You're talking about your reading life. You can definitely talk about this."

And I think a difference would be, yeah, coming back from SIBA, you were just talking about what you heard, right? It was just like what you were excited about, what you heard, people you talked to. There was some prep. I mean, you went to a whole weekend event about these different books, so you were definitely doing some of that prep work. But now it's a little longer lead time. You're not just doing a weekend.

[00:10:51] ANNE: There's a very real sense in which I've been working on this for years. I mean, this year's Fall Book Preview for years.

WILL: Wait, nobody's going to believe that. Explain how it's been more than one year that you're working on this year's Fall Book Preview.

ANNE: My process is very much the same as it was for this year's Summer Reading Guide, which I know is the thing that many of you pay the most attention to. If you only pay attention to one thing we do every year, it's probably the Summer Reading Guide. So I have talked about this before. But my process hasn't changed for a couple of years now. It's become a bigger and bigger part, and now it's 100% what I do.

And that is, I review book catalogs every single week that publishers send me. I rely on the Edelweiss system that independent booksellers use, and I rely on just the catalogs from the publishers that I have relationships with. Obviously, lots of Big Five imprints, but also little tiny niche presses. I just see what's coming out every week and flag, "Oh, you know what.” That's the core of my process.

[00:12:03] Another part of my process is reading the deal points memos that come out every single weekday from Publishers Marketplace. I see what deals are being made. When those deals are announced, sometimes it'll say, "We just signed Sarah J. Maas for an eight-figure nine-book deal," and the last book will get published 12 years from now. Those stats are not-

WILL: Hypothetical. We're making stuff up here.

ANNE: They're only half invented, but they're not real. It's not true that her last book is coming out in like 2047. And sometimes the deal point will say, "And it's coming out two months from today." But I mean, some of these books in this year's Fall Book Preview are ones that I have been tracking since they were unnamed project acquired by Knopf to be published four years from now that'll generally be about the American dream and its collapse. That is hypothetical.

[00:13:01] So we have a spreadsheet that Brigid and I mostly keep called Books on the Way, and it'll say things like "unnamed project from Maggie O'Farrell". And we'll just track it through the process until it shows up with a name and a description and a publication date, and then I start rubbing my hands together, like hopefully not greedily, but ooh, give me that book. That's the pipeline.

The catalogs, those books are now available further and further in advance. Nine to fifteen months is typical. And then those books on the way can be up to four plus years if they get delayed. Yeah, it's a long time. It's been a long time in the making.

WILL: Yeah, it's a long time in the making. Speaking of things being delayed, or not speaking of things delayed, you were saying things change, right? Being delayed. So you've been working on some of these books that are going in this year's Fall Book Preview. You've been tracking them for years, potentially. But also, I think we found out today, when you were talking to yourself, or prepping to talk to yourself, that there's an inaccuracy? An update.

ANNE: It is.

[00:14:08] WILL: We'll say an update. It is now inaccurate, but it was accurate when we wrote it. But there's been a change, right?

ANNE: Yeah. We have out-of-date information in our Fall Book Preview.

WILL: Yeah.

ANNE: Here's what happened. I might-

WILL: Which we just finished like a week ago, right? It's out of date and we just finalized it.

ANNE: I might regret this later, but I'm not going to tell you the book. If you came to Unboxing, you would have heard it already, and if you look at the preview, it's the first book listed in the preview. And I went back to look at the things the publisher was really excited about for this title, and the first thing they said was, "We are aiming for a celebrity book club pick. We think this book is amazing. We think we can do it. We think it's perfect." And so I thought, "I wonder if they got that. Like, I wonder if they secured that."

[00:14:50] And I loaded just the book page on the publisher's retail site and saw, wait a second, the publication date has changed. And I realized, because of when this book is being published, they would not yet be able to announce that it had been named as a celebrity book club pick. But y'all, I've been watching what's going on in publishing for a long time, and a date change at this point in the process, the number of days it changed, I don't know which celebrity book club pick it is, but it's a celebrity book club pick. And the date got changed, and now our Fall Book Preview is out of date. I'll tell you about it at Unboxing. It's in the unboxing video you can watch now. Go check it out.

Also, I loved this book. I love this book. It deserves it. I don't know what the club is, but it deserves it. Those recommendations are not what they used to be. Those celebrity book club don't move titles like they did even a few years ago, and still I'm happy for this book. I don't want to spoil it, but I do think it's interesting to know what factors impact things like the publication date changing not long before publication. Like, how does that work and why? And I hope I can bring insight to that with all the books I talk about at Fall Book Preview.

[00:16:02] WILL: So celebrity book clubs has not always been a thing and... we were talking about how you switched from kind of this, "I just have a pile of books and I'm ready to talk to you about it," to the multi-year search for, "What books might I want to talk about?" And putting together a PDF, and now we're doing a print version. This'll be the third year, actually, for that. What's changed in the industry other than, as you said, the lead times are getting longer and longer for when people are announcing things and getting arcs out and all that stuff? What else is different about fall reading, fall publishing titles, the industry in general?

ANNE: Ooh. So much. I think the thing that probably is most visible to readers that has changed is the marketing and how the promotion finds you in different ways, and ways that a lot of readers experience as being very loud. All the book coverage. I mean, I wrote a blog post on the old Modern Mrs Darcy. I mean, old in that it was two logos ago. The colors are red and blue.

WILL: Two logos ago.

[00:17:12] ANNE: It looks very different. The Internet Wayback Machine doesn't function the way it did not that long ago, so I found a screenshot from a Gmail address I no longer use of the Mailchimp, which we no longer use, delivering the email to my inbox on September 23rd, 2014. And the blog post is Let's Make Autumn Reading a Thing. And bless my heart, the introduction is "Everybody writes a summer reading book roundup." Which is funny, when we started the Summer Reading Guide in 2011, 2012, that wasn't the case, which is hard to believe now. That wasn't that long ago, and it felt so different between 2012 and 2014. Like, where are the fall reading lists? Let's do one around here since nobody else is.

And in 2026, with fall reading news buzz everywhere, filling up everybody's Instagrams and book talks and Substacks and legacy media, it's different today. I mean, so much so that a conversation that we have often on our team is, look, one of our — I can quote from our vision and values — guiding lights is we are not about the bandwagon. Like, if everyone else in book world is doing something, then do we really need to be doing that thing?

[00:18:28] So we do have big questions every year. Like, "Everybody's doing a Summer Reading Guide. Do we need to do one?" Like, "Everybody's doing a Fall Book Preview. Do we need to do one?" And I need to be sure that we are bringing something valuable to readers that is uniquely us, because if everybody else is doing a thing, if we're doing things like everybody else, then there's no point. You can get it somewhere else. Somebody else is already going to the trouble. But I do think we have our own angle. I mean, our enduring angle. Like, we've been, I think, taking this approach for many years now. It's evolved very much since 2019.

WILL: Well, we have, yes, a way that we've kind of been doing things as a team for the last couple of years, and definitely from your direction of what we want to make. But also, when you talk about sort of what's everybody else doing and do we have a reason to do ours, and what's the angle and all that stuff, part of the angle is just us, right? I mean, we have not just a way of doing it, but a taste and a level of interest in particular books and particular genres and all that I think people have come to know, right, and they recognize those and are interested in, not to use myself as an example, but I do hear occasionally that people are like, "I want to know what Will's reading," you know?

[00:19:39] Actually, it's always fun when I'm in the customer service inbox, and I reply to somebody and they're like, "Oh, it's Will. Now I want to ask him."

ANNE: "He's real."

WILL: "I have a friend who needs this book," or, "I recommended one of the things you mentioned and here's..." So I always love hearing that feedback. But anyway, less about me. Except that it is about me. It's about us, right, that we have our own taste that we share, and it is not just... how do I say this? It's not just a list of books from this year. You were talking about how the titles, some of them, you've been working on for a very long time. But this year's Fall Book Preview, we've been working with readers to know who we are and what we're bringing to the Fall Book Preview for a long time. So as they've been with us for multiple years, they know what's going into that, and they have an understanding of when we say that a book is... come on, what's an adjective that you use in blurbs all the time? You say it's a-

ANNE: Evocative.

WILL: Evocative. Okay, there you go.

ANNE: You know what I say all the time? Emotionally resonant.

WILL: Emotionally resonant.

ANNE: Because I like that.

WILL: People have some understanding of what those words mean because they've heard you use them before.

[00:20:43] ANNE: Yeah, that's very true. I have realized... Readers, this is going to sound so obvious. But I've realized you don't talk about books and reading in a vacuum. I mean, unless you're selling widgets, right? And books aren't widgets. What we make is hand-curated by me with my human brain, and also comes from my own voice and interests as a reader, and I've really learned that I believe, at this moment in time, I can serve readers better if I really lean into the point of view. But I can only read like myself.

And while I definitely will read these catalogs and go, "Oh, I know exactly the reader that that book is perfect for, and that this book is perfect for, and this book is perfect for," and I may make team member recommendations, "Saw this, thought of you. If you check it out, let me know what you think." But I can only tell you what my reading experience is like. And despite the fact that this podcast is called What Should I Read Next?, the one “should” I believe in is you should make your reading life your own. I'm not going to tell you what you should read, but I can give you a good idea of what I've seen, what I've read, what I've experienced, what I noticed, what my reading experience is like, what other readers are finding, and let you make your own decision.

[00:22:06] Again, I do think this is really worth emphasizing. I'm not just rounding up books that I've seen out there, other people sharing on their Substacks or whatever. Like, I am really following my readerly heart and interests and past and enthusiasm and taste, and plucking two in 100 titles every week to investigate... That's probably not true. I probably read two, and I probably mark down nine, to investigate every week for years to think about what I really want to bring to you. And then this year I've read more for the Fall Book Preview than I ever have before.

WILL: I don't remember if it made it in, but you were asking me... we talk about how I'm there at the very beginning of this. You were asking me about features, and you were looking for a book. And this was not from this year, but you were looking to build out the feature and say like, "What's a book from before whatever?" And I made a recommendation. I was like, "Hey, I think this fits perfect for what you're thinking." And you said, "Oh, well, I didn't read that. You read that." I read it, but you said that you hadn't read it, and I was like, "Oh, well, I figured I read it because you passed it on to me." So that kind of eliminates where that fits in to other things because like you said, you want to speak to the books that you know well and are recommending from.

[00:23:22] ANNE: And I haven't read every book in the Fall Book Preview, so I get to be both a reader who has read and enjoyed. This year we have a section that's called Anne's Four and Five-Star Reads, Fall Reads, or something like that, and these are from among the dozens of books that I've... I think I've read like 35 so far, books publishing in this fall season, which is more than I usually read by this moment in time. And then I'll keep reading because I want to and because I'm finding out about more.

But initially, I envisioned that this feature would be much shorter because I didn't think I'd read as much, and I didn't think I'd love, like love as many books as I did. But this feature's really long, so in Unboxing I tell you about 18 of my four and five-star reads that I've already read for the season to come.

[00:24:11] There's also a section called Anne's Most Anticipated. And this is more in the spirit of the original, like, I just got back from the industry trade show, and I've seen what's out there, and publishers have told me, sometimes directly, to speak to my personal taste, what they think I might want to take a look at and why. And I'm sharing that, but I'm speaking from my personal interest and point of view, but I am not speaking from my readerly experience with those titles.

Now, some titles in that section I have read and enjoyed. If I didn't enjoy it, I struck it from the preview. Which some books that I really thought were going to be in my four and five-star reads because some readers had raved about them so much, I did not enjoy at all, and they get a very nominal mention in our More Books on the Way This Fall From Authors, including feature that we worked into the preview in the spirit of bookish abundance and hopefully not bookish overwhelm.

[00:25:14] WILL: I got a question about abundance there. You said you read 18 that ended up being four and five-star reads. Do you remember how many exactly are in the whole preview?

ANNE: 43.

WILL: 43. Okay.

ANNE: Well, okay, there's 43 in Anne's Four and Five-Star Reads and Anne's Most Anticipated, but then we have our team most anticipated, and we have series installments, and we have team backlist books that feel like fall, and we have the More Books on the Way, and all those features are not included in the 43.

WILL: Yeah, the 43. That's just ways of us sneaking in more and more books. But 43 is the titles that you saw coming out this fall that you wanted to talk about. And listeners, that's a very interesting number. 43 is an interesting number because especially for something like the Summer Reading Guide, we try and really keep it mid-30s. And part of that is dependent on the layout, honestly, like how much space do we have, how many books can go in, how do those numbers divide between categories, pages. And so it's pretty constrained or whatever. But you actually went longer than that this time with fall.

ANNE: I mean, I didn't mean to.

WILL: How did you keep that from being overwhelming?

[00:26:21] ANNE: That's a good question. I imagine it's the rare reader who will want to read all of them. I mean, in part because the Anne's Most Anticipated, that there are 25 books in that section. They're broken down by genre. So are you more drawn to the memoir nonfiction or the science fiction fantasy, the love stories? I mean, there are ways to make those lists much shorter as you make your readerly decisions. I was shocked to add up the numbers because it didn't feel like that many books to me.

WILL: And I remember you telling me that from the get-go, that was sort of like part of the vision of this year's Fall Book Preview is you want it to be very full, but also not overwhelming to people.

ANNE: Yes. Actually, as we were just talking about the number of titles, I was picturing the last time I walked into Carmichael's, our local indie. Like, there's 40 books on the new release fiction table and 40 more on the new release nonfiction. And it feels abundant, but not like, "Oh, no, stress, I need to read all these books immediately." It feels like I have choices. And that's what I really wanted to do, is give readers choices where they see things they could read but not feel like, "Oh no, I don't have time for all this."

[00:27:37] The vision from the get-go for this year's preview was... well, first of all, I've known for a while now that this literary season was going to be ridiculous, in a good way, but also in a, oh, goodness, how do we even talk about...? I've quoted friends who've said, "Every single one of my favorite authors have books coming out this fall. How am I going to read everything?" And I'm not going to pretend, readers, like you don't have more options than usual in this season. I know a lot of readers are really going to be thinking about, "I don't have any more reading time than I usually do, so how am I going to decide?"

So from the get-go, I wanted to help you prioritize and show you, like, yes, you have options, and also really think about how to narrow it down. And with our visual PDF lookbook that our What Should I Read Next? alum, Julie VanHeusen, designed with me. I say with me, she did the work, and I sent her terrible, terrible chicken scratch sketches and pages of text notes about the feel I wanted and edits to make. She's a pro. And it looks amazing.

[00:28:51] But what I told her was I wanted it to feel pleasantly packed, but not overwhelming, and kind of vintage, inky, like zine-y, hand-stamped. The phrase I kept coming back to with her was sophisticated whimsy. And I just want it to feel like a companion that you could keep with you through the whole reading season and also years to come.

One of the reasons for that is I know how I think as a reader about what I may enjoy reading next, and I do understand we have different reading lives, you and I, readers, and we read for different reasons and different purposes, and it's probably not your job, but it is some of your jobs. But first I like to get the lay of the land and see all the options, and then I'll make a couple picks, and I'll start reading. But what I find is I keep coming back to the possibilities over and over through the season.

[00:29:45] And every time, I'm a little bit wiser in my reading life. I have different recent experience reading in my ears. I have different stuff happening in my personal life that's going to inform what I'm interested in, what kind of tone and challenge level I want to read next. And I wanted our preview, whether you go PDF, digital, or whether you order our lookbook to come in your mail and you put it on your coffee table or tuck it in your journal, I wanted that to serve your repeat visits. I want it to hold up, and I wanted it to have enough information so you didn't have to go, "What was that dog book Anne talked about?" I wanted to have a short little description that would remind you of what each title was that you perhaps heard me talk about in Unboxing, just when you looked in the lookbook.

So I just really wanted a tool and companion that would feel trusted and usable. We printed on paper you can write on this year, and not glossy paper. And that was very deliberate. I want it to make your reading life better.

[00:30:41] WILL: I find this very funny because you were saying, like, "Not everybody reads like me or approaches reading like me." Yeah, that's not me at all. I mean, I barely have a to-be-read list, and most of the time I don't even know what's on it. Like, I don't know where... I thought, "Oh, I should add that onto my TBR," and I don't know where...

ANNE: Oh my gosh. I'm thinking of the year where you opened your reading journal and were like, "Wait a second. Is my scale four stars or five stars? I don't even know."

WILL: That was after I read the books. Right now I'm like, seriously the best thing going for me is a physical pile of like, "Oh, I wanted to read these books." And then I might not be in the mood for it, but like at least I'll remember it, you know? But as you're talking about that, I'm reminded of the Sears... was it called the Wish Book? Do you remember getting the catalog in the mail?

ANNE: All of a sudden I have The Music Man in my head.

WILL: Do you remember getting the catalog with all the toys in it?

ANNE: Maybe.

[00:31:37] WILL: I would turn down all the pages. I would dog-ear all the pages with... I mean, we're talking like a September Vogue issue, like thick book, you know?

ANNE: Well, I hope the fall lookbook is your grown-up book lover version.

WILL: Yeah.

ANNE: I mean, it's 12 pages. It's pleasantly packed 12 pages.

WILL: Pleasantly packed, but it's only 12 pages. That's true. That's fair. Well, the lookbook is one thing, and the printed version that you can get in the mail, which is a lot of what I'm doing for the next couple days, that's another piece of this. But Unboxing... we got to talk about Unboxing.

So Unboxing is our party? How exactly would you describe it? It's a party. It's a sort of study session, right? Kind of taking notes on what's coming and-

ANNE: There aren't a lot of contexts in which a party plus study session go together. It's the big reveal.

WILL: Oh, but Modern Mrs Darcy totally does all the time.

ANNE: It's the unveiling.

WILL: The unveiling, the party, and the note-taking session.

[00:32:39] ANNE: We're big nerds. We love new books. I mean, it is fun. But also, like, we're getting you prepped to make important decisions about what you want to feel like reading when you want to escape, or read something challenging, or get lost in whatever kind of literary fiction you really enjoy. If you enjoy literary fiction, this fall season's good.

But not to wander away from the point. Okay, so you were talking about Unboxing. What we do here is it gives me... Unboxing gives me an opportunity to share, in my own words, with my voice, where you can see my face or listen to my tone if you're a Patron who listens to the audio-only replay after, more details than I can fit into the lookbook. Or for the Summer Reading Guide, where we have more space, where we use more space, still I can't fit in as much as I would like to say.

[00:33:31] And I get to say more about what my reading experience was like, what surprised me, what I found. Sometimes in Fall Book Preview, I share fun little facts like, what was the initial print run on this title? I don't know that on every book, but y'all find little details like that really interesting if the publisher has shared them so I can share them with you. But really, what I'm telling you is, like, why I chose each book to include, if I've read it, what I thought about it, who I think may enjoy it.

And what I seek to do is speak about this in such a way that I can help you envision what your reading experience would be like with that book, and then you take over and think about, is this a reading experience that I want to prioritize having in this season?

And then my favorite part is Q&A. We answer tons of reader questions about these books, what's included, what's not, why, content questions. "Anne, I'm looking for this kind of title this fall. What are three that come to mind?" So I answer a bunch of those in Unboxing. And then we always do a Patreon bonus episode after that we've shared with our a la carte ticket holders and our Modern Mrs Darcy Book Club members, so you can listen to answering even more of those questions.

[00:34:41] And really the goal of all this is helping you get ready to have the fall reading season you want to. I don't want you to pick up a book and be like, "Ugh, if I'd known whatever bit of information, I never would have read this." I'm really trying to anticipate those questions so that you can feel as informed as you want to be about what's on the literary table this fall.

WILL: And I love hearing afterwards, sometimes in the chat, but sometimes, you know, several days later, whatever that people said they got the email, they looked at it, you know, whatever it was. They had an impression of things. And then you started talking Unboxing and they're like, "Oh, I was not interested in that book, for whatever reason, and now I'm excited about it kind of deal." And I love that you get to give your own energy to it. I do want to clarify. You said you get to say in your own words. The PDF and the printed guide preview are your words.

ANNE: They're all my own words.

[00:35:36] WILL: They're all your words. The ones on Unboxing are a little less scripted and haven't been edited, and you get to let your emotion show through, like how much you really enjoyed a thing. And also, if you get stuck on a book for four minutes, readers, that probably tells you something. There's a lot to say about that book. Not that that is the only arbiter of whether a book was really good or Anne really enjoyed it was how long she talked about it. But you can kinda tell which ones — ooh, another word we use a lot — resonated with her.

ANNE: Hmm. Yes, we do. In my own words, that's worth saying. We released an AI statement a couple of years ago, and I do think in this day and age it's worth repeating that our organization, our business, does not use generative AI. Period. The end. We make this ourselves, and we use our own words, and we choose our own books.

[00:36:26] And look, choosing the book you want to read next is, as it goes, a pretty low-stakes endeavor, but we're talking about your reading life, which, I mean, for you to allow me to speak to this part of your life is an honor and a privilege and a responsibility that I do not carry lightly. I feel like you deserve our human be... I feel like you deserve everyone's human best. And we'll link to that statement in our show notes, our AI statement.

But the first Modern Mrs Darcy value that we knew had to go on our vision and values sheet was trust. Like, we are honest and forthright and dependable both in what we make and how we deliver it to you. And really I'm a reader who works in the book space and talks about what I like.

[00:37:25] I mean, you might think my taste is crap, but all I can bring to you is my own taste as a starting point. And I want you to be able to trust that you're getting my real experience, my real opinion, I mean, shared in an honest, tactful, kind, forthright way. But we aren't swayed by external reviewers or sponsors. We don't take money for recommending books, and we write all this ourselves. Have I gotten a little carried away?

WILL: Yeah, that was a lot, but it's good.

ANNE: People always have follow-up questions that I'm kind of trying to answer.

WILL: Yeah, they do have a lot of questions.

ANNE: But we take what we do really seriously, and we think you deserve the honest and kind and interesting and useful truth the best way that I know to deliver it to you.

WILL: Honest and useful truth. I mean, the other thing about the AI statement is we enjoy this work. I'm not sure if it would be as fun if we were just like, "Computer, do this thing for me." I mean, whenever we talk to people they're like, "You get to read for a living?" We're like, "Not exactly."

ANNE: Not exactly.

WILL: But the fun part is talking about books all the time. And you wouldn't get to do that if you're using a computer.

[00:38:35] ANNE: I mean, I don't read for a living, but it is the reading that makes everything else possible, and I am grateful for all of it.

WILL: Yeah, you talk about books for a living.

ANNE: So thanks for letting me talk about books with you and to you. And I am doing my darnedest to make sure that trust is well-founded and that it does you some good. So listen to us.

WILL: Yeah. And I think it will. If you spend the time with Unboxing, that's approximately 90 minutes, right? The event?

ANNE: Yeah.

WILL: It should set up your fall reading season, your TBR personally, really well. It's going to be a good use of time.

ANNE: My friend said, "I just love how this is such a reliable investment in my readerly joy." I was like, "Oh my gosh, that's the nicest thing." I mean, because I want readerly joy. I want as much readerly joy as I can get. I'm going to tell you about all the books that brought me readerly joy, and tactfully omit the ones that didn't for the most part, unless I get very direct questions.

[00:39:32] WILL: Very direct questions. There you go, everybody. That's your permission to ask direct questions. All right. Well, thank you for talking Fall Book Preview with me, all the way back from Making Autumn Reading a Thing to this year's Fall Book Preview. Wish me luck. No paper cuts. You know, everything out on time.

ANNE: A man can dream. Good luck.

WILL: Thanks.

ANNE: Readers, I hope you enjoyed hearing about how we think about creating what we create here at Modern Mrs Darcy and What Should I Read Next?, and about Fall Book Preview specifically. I would love to hear what you think you'll read from the Fall Book Preview.

Tag us on Instagram any time this season. I'd love to hear what you think you'll read from the Fall Book Preview. Tag us any time on Instagram this season @whatshouldireadnext, or leave us a comment on this week's show notes. We post those every week at whatshouldireadnextpodcast.com.

[00:40:26] Make sure you're on our email list to get weekly updates on the show, the wider reading world, and special projects like the Fall Book Preview. Sign up at whatshouldireadnextpodcast.com/newsletter. Also, a reminder that the Fall Book Preview is an included perk for Patreon members, so this is a great time to join, grab your Fall Book Preview, watch Unboxing, listen to bonuses like last week's industry insights on small press personalities. That's where I shared how knowing what kinds of books publishers tend to publish helps you identify what books you might want to read.

Also, Will Bogel is mailing out merch all week. You can check out our shop. Our Fall Book Preview is there at modernmrsdarcy.com/shop.

Thanks to the people who make the show happen. What Should I Read Next? is created each week by executive producer Will Bogel, special thanks, William, for joining me today as my guest host, Media production specialist Holly Wielkoszewski, social media manager and editor Leigh Kramer, community coordinator Brigid Misselhorn, community manager Shannan Malone, and our whole team at What Should I Read Next? and Modern Mrs. Darcy HQ. Plus the audio whizzes at Studio D Podcast Production.

Readers, that's it for this episode. Thanks so much for listening. And as Rainer Maria Rilke said, "Ah, how good it is to be among people who are reading." Happy reading, everyone.