[00:00:00] GINGER HORTON: I was telling Anne before we started this call that I had gone through as I proofread and noted the 15 books that I want to read for the summer based on my own reading intentions.

ANNE BOGEL: 15 for 15.

GINGER: 15 for 15. I did not do that on purpose, but you know I love when that happens.

ANNE: Hey readers, I'm Anne Bogel, and this is What Should I Read Next?. Welcome to the show that's dedicated to answering the question that plagues every reader, what should I read next? We don't get bossy on this show. What we will do here is give you the information you need to choose your next read.

[00:00:44] This week we're giving you the information you need to find out about a whole lot of reads. We are sharing the excitement of our upcoming Summer Reading Guide — that will be our 15th edition — releasing this Thursday, May 14th. I am joined today by the absolutely perfect guest for this episode, if I do say so myself. That is our Modern Mrs Darcy Book Club community manager, Ginger Horton, and we can't wait to tell you more.

If you are already a member of our Modern Mrs Darcy Book Club or our What Should I Read Next? Patreon communities or you purchased your à la carte ticket, you are all set to get the guide on Thursday and attend Thursday's unboxing events at either 1:00 PM or 8:00 PM if you'd like to join us live. Those times are Eastern, New York City time.

[00:01:29] We are holding two book parties, and we call them book parties not because they're parties in the traditional sense. They're, you know, informative literary events, but we call them parties because they are so much fun. But there are two events happening live, so you can choose the one that suits you best, or some readers join us for both. And if neither time works for you, never fear. We have the recording for you available beginning very late in the day on May 14th, but any time thereafter, you have instant access.

Summer Reading Guide veterans make a big deal of unboxing for good reason. You'll hear Ginger and I talk more about that today. Readers do things like take the day off work, gather with friends, or plan whole weekend getaways to different cities because of unboxing and the Summer Reading Guide.

[00:02:19] With this year's theme of reading retreat, you could even create your own special day to watch the event, peruse your guide, and plan your to-be-read list. If you've never been to one of our unboxings before, here's what to expect.

I go through all the titles in the guide one by one, sharing more about why I chose each title, what the reading experience is like, and what kind of reader may most enjoy each book. I get to share more than I can say in print and answer your questions about tone, theme, content, comps, and more.

There's still time to purchase your à la carte ticket, and we do recommend not waiting until the last minute, although you could, but less stress is good for your reading life. Ticket holders get a copy of the beautiful digital guide in PDF form and are invited, if they so choose, to attend our live unboxings. Find out all the details you need to know at modernmrsdarcy.com/srg, that's for Summer Reading Guide. Modernmrsdarcy.com/srg.

[00:03:18] Readers, today I am delighted to welcome our book club community manager, Ginger Horton, to the show to talk about our Summer Reading Guide. If Ginger's name sounds familiar, well, lucky you. You may recognize her from our recent episode where she helped to recommend titles to Cheryl Drury, or because you're an MMD book clubber, a listener in our Patreon community, or just like to hang out in these parts.

Ginger's been on the podcast a time or, I don't know, six since you first made your debut a few years back, Ginger, and we couldn't believe you hadn't been on till then. But today, Ginger's here, and we're going to dive into all things summer reading.

And I love having you on the show today, Ginger, because I feel like you're the perfect bridge between what I'm holding in my brain for the 2026 Summer Reading Guide that has been, in one sense, in the works for many years. When like authors I know and love first mention, like, "Oh, in a few years I'm going to have a book come out about X," and I've thought, "Oh, I'm going to put that in a spreadsheet somewhere to remind me in four years that book is coming, because I want to read it, and maybe it's going to be great for the Summer Reading Guide."

[00:04:26] So I've been thinking like way long-term and have put this thing together piece by piece. But you have been collaborating on the guide for many years now, and were an integral part about deciding not just what our specific vision for 2026 would be with the reading retreat theme, but also really helping me think through how to present those ideas.

And we're going to get into that in detail. But Ginger, in one sense, you're a creator, but in another sense, you're a co-discoverer with readers because it's just been like hours since you saw the first draft of this year's Summer Reading Guide. So thank you for being the perfect guest and coming to What Should I Read Next? today. Welcome.

GINGER: I love this time of year. Anne, I'm so glad to be back in this space because I do... I have a complicated relationship with summer reading. But I love summer. We might get into that. I love summer.

ANNE: No, we're going to get into it right now. So, for those who don't know, tell us more.

[00:05:21] GINGER: Okay. Well, sometimes, not the last couple of years, but sometimes I have had a real dip in my reading life in the summer, and I have theories about why that happens. But the Summer Reading Guide is a resource that I start using in May, but sometimes it takes a long time for me to enjoy all of it because I make my way piece by piece through the year sometimes.

And so, yeah, I love holding out as long as I can. And as our team has grown, that has been available to me. I hold out as long as I can and kind of look at the guide as late as possible in the process, partly because my eyes are fresher to catch any typos or whatever, but partly because I love the delight and the discovery of to see what you have read, what ends up on the guide, hearing you, like you mentioned, four years coming, one year coming, this book is finally coming out, we have a release date, and now hearing why I might want to read it.

[00:06:13] ANNE: Well, I'm glad to hear it. There are 35 books in this year's guide once again, and they are broken down in two categories. We have things like historical happenings, literary and contemporary fiction that this year we've done something fun with. It's on a spectrum from serious and earnest all the way over to playful and quirky.

We have books that are about messy, messy relationships. And yes, that word is repeated, and I do mean messy in the best sense when it comes to fiction. We have a category for magical and strange. We have seaside stories, if I didn't already say that, mystery and suspense, memoir and nonfiction. There is good stuff in this year's guide.

So we want to create a guide that is compact and has lots of options, but not so many, not the thousands of titles coming out this summer or hundreds that are on my, like, I could consider this for the guide reading list, but really whittle it down to some likely to bring you reading joy this summer all in one little package. And we have fun features as well. We'll talk about that more in today's episode.

[00:07:17] But my friend, Nikki, shout-out Nikki, gave me the gift of describing back to me what the guide was to so many readers. She said, reading time is precious. Like, we all have... I mean, some of you tell us about how much you're enjoying the switch between retiring from a full-time job and becoming a retiree and having so much more reading time that it still feels abundant to you if that transition is new. But the vast majority of us feel like so many books, so little time is a serious dilemma, and the thing that really stands between us and the reading life we wish we could have.

And my friend was telling me how the guide every year is just such a gateway to reliable reading joy because if you're going to take your precious reading time and spend it metaphorically on only a handful of books, you want to make sure those books bring you a memorable experience.

[00:08:10] And having someone hold your hand as you make those choices can feel really, really good. And that's what we've done every year in the guide for... this will be our 15th edition. If you told me back in 2012, "This is the first of 15 and counting," I mean, I think it would've exploded my little readerly head. But here we are.

And every year since the second year, I have read every book in the guide cover to cover, and the reason that is, is the first year, I remember highlighting some new releases that I was really excited about, that I was really looking forward to spending my reading time on. And about half of them, I not only was disappointed, but was kinda angry that my precious reading time had been spent in that way, and I resolved then, like, I... In this context for the Summer Reading Guide, you know, guidance implied, I'm only going to talk about the books that I have read and can vouch for.

[00:09:09] And just because I've read a book does not mean you will love it as well. But in the guide, in that unboxing I try to be real specific about what my reading experience was like, not to tell you what yours will be like or that you should want that experience, but to help you wrap your head around, is this... I mean, is this a train I want to get on this summer? If I only have so much reading time at my disposal, how do I want to use it, and do I want this book to be in the mix?

And if you have questions, like, people will say things like, "Well, you know, I'm not feeling really sweary this summer. Can you guide me in that direction?" Or, "I need a book that's going to leave me in a hopeful space, and I'm thinking about X title. Is it a good fit?" I can answer those questions because I've read them all. Ginger, what would you add to that?

[00:09:54] GINGER: I think that we are all in a place that we could not have collectively seen 15 years ago, and that is, I feel this, that the marketing dollars are working harder than ever. I know that there is, I guess, lore in the publishing world that they don't quite know what's happening and what to do. But I can tell you, I feel the impacts of it because I see the same books, I see the big book list, everything that's getting published, and that does not mean that those books are right for me.

I love the publishing industry. I'm so glad they're marketing books. I am cheering any books that anybody wants to put in front of me. But that doesn't mean that's a book I want to read just because it's in front of me. And so, yeah, I think that having a trusted, guided source is so important.

When I walk into my independent bookstore, I know which of the staff members write those little cards that I am going to seek out, and I know which ones, God bless them, they're doing great work there, but I do not want to read the books that they suggest.

ANNE: Not your book twin?

[00:10:48] GINGER: They're not my book twin. That's such a helpful thing to know, actually. And like you said, sometimes that's even specific to the year. It doesn't mean that that's forever a no for me, but that can be tailored to my reading summer. Summer reading is precious time, like you said.

ANNE: We hear that. Also something that's unique about our guide is since 2019, shout out to Katie who designed our first one, we've done a beautiful user-friendly magazine style that you can print the whole thing if you want. You can mark it up. But it's just a really fun way to engage with something that a lot of people really enjoy and look forward to every year. And that is their summer reading... oh, what's a word that I can use that's not curriculum? Because that sounds a little too much like school.

[00:11:34] To some of us, anything that hints of school, like you want homework. You wish we'd make worksheets for your summer reading. But for others of you, you want nothing that smacks of that. But as you're imagining what literary joys could await you this summer, the magazine style can be a really fun way to dip in.

And since 2020... I mean, we've had loose themes for a while. Boot camp in 2024 was the first year where we leaned hard into a theme. Last year's was road trip. This year's is reading retreat. And we thought that would be such a lovely theme for right now. Ginger, you want to say more?

GINGER: It does. It feels like a sigh of relief. I love just the exhale that a reading retreat is, whether that is a literal one, as Anne mentioned. Some people build the start of their summer around the Summer Reading Guide, taking days off, booking an Airbnb, traveling to a location. But I think even if it's just figurative. I remember two summers ago, we had a specific Genius Moves class that was all about summer Genius Moves, and one reader said that she has this hour of the day that she opens up the front door, she has a screen on it, and she pretends she's reading on like a screened-in porch because, "No bugs, all books," was what she said.

ANNE: No bugs, all books.

[00:12:55] GINGER: Give me 20 minutes. That somehow you are creating this space for your reading life. And we keep hearing that recently from readers that, again, the publishing landscape is overwhelming in the best possible way. We love that big book party, but what we also want is just space to slow down, to savor.

Man, I think about all those summers when you were a kid, speaking of homework, where you would prop your feet up, you'd turn on the ceiling fan, maybe just me, I lived in the American South, and you just like had this long, expansive time to read. And that is the vibe I'm going for this summer.

ANNE: Oh, and you know, you may hear us say words like peace and calm, but I want you to know that is adamantly not code for boring. We are talking about a really energetic kind of entry into a space that you couldn't be happier to be in. But that is anti-frantic, not frenetic in any way, no FOMO allowed. What we're looking for is to cultivate vibes that feel really warm and supportive and enthusiastic and abundant.

[00:14:05] Our desire with our reading retreat Summer Reading Guide magazine is to come alongside you and help you discover good books that let you escape into... peaceful, new world? No. But that you would seep into interesting new worlds that you want to be in, and also enrich your life in meaningful ways. We are a bit nerds. You are going to go places and learn things with the books in this year's Summer Reading Guide, but on your terms. And you can choose how nerdy or escapist you wish to be.

And it's Modern Mrs Darcy, What Should I Read Next?. We believe in nerdy escapism, but we just really want to help you craft a season full of abundance, ease, and joy, whatever it is that you want in your summer, and also one that puts a heaping helping of potential four and five-star books on your readerly horizons. That's been a goal for years now.

[00:14:57] We just recently did a survey in these parts, and I wasn't really expecting the biggest shot of readerly joy for readers to be to read a book that I would give four or five stars to. The other thing most likely to give readers a big shot of readerly joy was finding out an author they love has a new book coming out. I'm certain some of those are in the guide among these 35 books.

Some of them you may already know. Like, "Oh, I've been looking forward to that author's new books." But I think some of them will be surprises, just because it's hard to know about everything happening in publishing world.

And also, we have a feature like we have in several years past that's books from authors you know and love that includes titles coming out between May and August from authors that you may already have read previous books in their series, or that you may have already read previous books by them, and we want you to know they're coming even if they're not specifically featured as one of the 35 titles in the guide.

[00:15:55] GINGER: Like Anne mentioned, anti-boring is absolutely what we're after. But there is nothing boring about sinking into that comfortable reading chair or comfortable reading spot, and then your heart beating out your chest because you cannot stop turning the page. So, absolutely, comfort can mean multiple things, but there is no more comfortable place for me to be.

I was telling Anne before we started this call that I had gone through as I proofread and noted the 15 books that I want to read for the summer based on my own reading intentions.

ANNE: 15 for 15.

GINGER: 15 for 15. I did not do that on purpose, but you know I love when that happens. And a good many of those, though, are the heart-pounding ones, or what I expect, yeah, kind of the page-turner ones. There might be some juicy, funny... A lot of these titles are really not at all like boring, pastoral vibes. They are absolutely, I'm going to power through those in two days straight.

[00:16:51] ANNE: Mm-hmm. There's definitely a purposeful mix of the heavy and the light, the long and the short. Lots of different vibes and settings this year, which we always try to do, but I don't know, life is hard. Good books help. I want to be sure I'm putting books for a wide variety of readerly experiences on your readerly horizons.

And for the reading retreat, I really wanted to communicate a vibe that was easy, but also really, really inviting, and that could help you imagine yourself taking place in a retreat that was either solo or communal. And bringing that to life with imagery was really fun.

I mean, I talked in a recent newsletter about how I really enjoy going to Trader Joe's and buying all the snacks. You should've seen our family group chat. Everyone was so enthusiastic about the leftovers they were hopefully going to get to eat, which they did, and it was great.

[00:17:51] And I hired a local photographer, shout out Laura, who was amazing. Ginger, I love collaborating with our team on so much. I love that. I mean, it was so life-giving to work with someone. Laura got it. Thank you, Laura.

GINGER: I love that.

ANNE: We were just arranging our snacks and our journals and our books and our blankets and our snacks and more snacks and our drinks and everything. And I had a few fellow readers on hands to help conjure the communal scenes. It was so fun to think about what would be inspiring and idea giving for you all this summer. I'm really happy with the results.

[00:18:28] GINGER: We had a Pinterest board at one point, and I think it's pretty hard to top a Pinterest board. But I think the way the guide looks, man, I gotta tell you, I think it might be better than a Pinterest board.

ANNE: I will pass that on to Laura. That's high praise.

GINGER: Shout out to Laura.

ANNE: So we want you to know if you're like, "I'm not doing a reading retreat this summer," that's cool. Like, we did one in the pages. So you could have the fun of flipping through that experience without thinking... Like, no actual retreat required to find good books in the guide this summer.

But this is a milestone for us. I mean, we've said that it's... Ginger chose 15 books for 15 years. This is our 15th Summer Reading Guide, and this is our year of celebrations around here. You've heard us say that this year we're celebrating 10 years of Modern Mrs Darcy Book Club. We hit 10 years of the podcast in January. Let's see. This is 15 years of the blog as well.

[00:19:23] GINGER: I love an anniversary. That's so much fun to talk about. You can absolutely celebrate, you know, four years into something. Why not? But there's just really something nice about those 10 and 15-year numbers.

ANNE: Yeah. And we had fun with 15. There's an anniversary feature in this year's guide where I walked down memory lane and really did the hard work of finding the original Summer Reading Guides, which are purposely not just something you can click on Modern Mrs Darcy and access. But there's a feature that walks you through, many of the covers from past years, going back to the first edition. And I recommend backlist books through the years because we love a juicy new release. But we also love a book that you can get your hands on immediately at your public library because there's not a bonkers wait list for it.

[00:20:14] And because we know you'll like backlist picks so much, I mean, as do you and I, Ginger.

GINGER: Oh, yeah.

ANNE: Like, we get this. Every title in the guide has a handful of "for fans of" picks is what... They're FFO picks in my reading journal, that are titles that would be really nice flight picks that just play really nicely with the new title I'm recommending in the Summer Reading Guide.

Sometimes it's because of setting, like all the books take place on the Camino de Santiago, for example. Sometimes it's because of the genre, but it's a book that has a similar tone or emotional feel to the book I'm recommending. So that you can both get a sense in this like really shorthand fashion of what the new book is like, but also, you can do a "Hmm, if I enjoyed reading this one. What should I read next?" kind of thing with all these books. It's just another way to help you discover older titles you may enjoy.

[00:21:14] GINGER: I love those bonuses because they do feel like a sneaky way to get a couple more books. You could build a personal curriculum out from there. And also, it's such a great way to see, "Oh, I liked both of those books. This one's going on my TBR list."

ANNE: That's what it's designed for. Ginger, would you like to do the honors of telling everyone about our team feature for this year?

GINGER: Yes. I absolutely love this. I might have already let Genius Moves tumble off of my tongue, because this is the time of year where I think it really occurs to me to think in a very specific way about my reading life. I hope to be intentional throughout the year, but that way is to get some wins. And Genius Moves are those short little pithy ways that we win in our reading lives.

[00:22:01] This started actually back at an in-person reading retreat for book club a while back, and we asked all the attendees to bring one quick win, one genius move for their reading life. They were so varied, so much fun, and so helpful that we've kind of used that as shorthand for the rest of book club. So we'll have a class every so often with just these collection of genius moves.

And so we asked the team to contribute their best genius move. Those are so much fun to read, to get tips, to see those little tiny tweaks. You're not going to overhaul your reading life with a genius move, but you might make one tweak that allows you to get, oh, let's say 30 more minutes of reading time on your family vacation. Hint, hint, that's mine. A sneaky way that I do it. I love to see the variety and the creativity of readers especially, man, our team members really came through. So that's going to be such a fun feature.

[00:22:57] ANNE: I really enjoyed that tip personally. Personally. Because 30 more minutes of reading time, especially... I mean, I'm an introvert.

GINGER: Same.

ANNE: So the way you worked that idea into your genius move, I really appreciated it.

GINGER: Well, you'll have to open your guide. I wish I knew the page number. It would fall off my tongue, but open your guide to the page with genius moves and find out what that would be.

ANNE: Well, it's in the beautiful table of contents. Because this year's guide is so li- It's just so pretty. It continues our same aesthetic, but the design is a little bit different this year. It's us, but it's different. I think you'll really enjoy it, whether this is your first guide or your 15th.

Let's talk a little more about the books.

GINGER: Yes.

[00:23:43] ANNE: There are 35 this year in those categories we talked about, and I want you to know there will be a Minimalist Summer Reading Guide this year. It'll go on the blog on May 14th, and then our first Tuesday What Should I Read Next? episode after the Summer Reading Guide releases, that's on Tuesday, May 19th. That will be me unboxing the Minimalist Guide.

And when it occurred to me to do this little preview episode in this way, I thought, "Why on earth have we not done it this way before?" It makes so much sense. But Unboxing means I'll give you a little more color and flavor, and you'll be able to hear the tone of my voice, a little more nuance, a little extra information, versus the short little blurb that will be on the blog.

But we're going to tell you what three of those books are right now. We don't do it this way every summer, but this summer we happen to be reading three new 2026 releases that are all in the Summer Reading Guide in Modern Mrs Darcy Book Club, and we announced those to our book clubbers a few weeks back in the middle of April, and we're going to tell you about all of them today. Da da-da-da.

[00:24:46] GINGER: I am so excited about these three titles. First of all, I think each one of them could totally stand on its own. But also, I think it's pretty representative of the breadth of the guide. I love that we are reading something that I think would be immediately hospitable to almost any reader. Just like that beach read, that airport read. You could pull this off the shelf, take it down, and it's going to just go down easy. But there's also a lot to talk about.

There is a more juicy, literary, family drama that's very discussable and a little nerdier, kind of midsummer. And then we sort of end our summer on a really avant-garde pick. There's ghosts, there's some more drama. I think this is so representative of what we do. A lot of fun, a lot of discussability, a lot of discoverability. And so Anne, would you like to do the honors and tell us which three books I've been obscurely describing?

[00:25:43] ANNE: I'd be delighted. In June, we're reading a romance author that I believe is no stranger to the vast majority of you. I am quoting Wallace Stegner all the time in Modern Mrs Darcy Book Club. He has a fictional novelist in Crossing to Safety say, "Hard writing makes for easy reading." And ooh, this book goes down easy in the best sense.

Our author is Annabel Monaghan, joining us for a chat to talk about her new May release, Dolly All The Time, in late June. It's a seaside story with a big-hearted, fiercely loyal protagonist that so many of you are going to want to root for, who we're going to cheer on to see her get her happy ending. And that is all I'm going to say about that until unboxing. You can look it up, but that's all I'm going to say until unboxing. So that's June, Dolly All the Time by Annabel Monaghan.

[00:26:37] In July, we're reading another book that I inhaled. My initial two-sentence review was, "What a juicy, delicious, lavish, atmospheric, messy-in-the-best-way love triangle of a book. My first from this author, but won't be my last." We are reading Sisters of a Halved Heart by Nayantara Roy. I just had very different expectations from Dolly All The Time. The tone and setting are totally different, but oh, I sucked this down so fast.

It's messy in the best way. It's in the messy, messy relationships category. Really interesting family drama that also has a wonderful supporting cast. I love the relationship between the female protagonist and her female best friend. There's a kid in the book who's perfect, brings out things in the other characters without feeling overdone or annoying.

[00:27:32] There's a literary mystery woven throughout, because the protagonist works at a literary magazine that has cachet, and there's a manuscript that is like knock-your-socks-off fantastic that appears unsolicited on our protagonist's desk because of her role at the magazine, and the question of who wrote it and why'd they send it to her permeates the whole book. And it does get resolved, and it's very satisfying.

Plus, Ginger, I told you, we both have mixed feelings about epilogues, but ooh-

GINGER: Oh, yeah.

ANNE: ...we're going to have a whole forum in book club about the epilogue for this book. I mean, I think I really liked it. I don't ever feel that way about epilogues, but I think I really liked it.

GINGER: I'm so nervous. But it's going to make for great discussion.

[00:28:21] ANNE: I'll tell you more about the specifics of this story at unboxing, but that's Sisters of a Halved Heart by Nayantara Roy, out in July.

And then August is our debut novel with those ghosts that Ginger was just talking about. This is The Great Wherever by Shannon Sanders. It is a powerful, multi-generational family saga about inheritance, a family farm, and the meddlesome, gossipy, nose-in-your-business, opinionated, judgmental family ghosts that reside on the farm and have strong, strong opinions on the family members' lives as they're still buzzing around the property. It's hard to not keep going, because I just want to talk about all these books. But that's August, The Great Wherever by Shannon Sanders. It's her first novel.

GINGER: I can't wait to talk about that one, too. I spent six years of my life in Memphis, and so I am so always happy to see Memphis on the page as well.

ANNE: Well, this fictional family farm is right down the road.

[00:29:26] GINGER: Love it. And like Anne said, this is the beginning of a bookish conversation, and so not only will we be talking more about those books in book club, but there will be bonus episodes in the Patreon space all summer long. And yeah, this is just the beginning of the chatter about the 35 books and more. You know, we'll continue to talk about books all summer long.

ANNE: Yes, we will. Ginger, you said you just went through the guide and marked down 15 titles you were especially interested in reading. I'm curious on just getting some commentary that's not spoilery, but was there anything in there you've already read, anything you previously knew about that you were really anticipating, anything you previously knew nothing about that especially piqued your interest? Readers want to know things.

GINGER: Yes. Yes. Okay, so the books that I am leaning towards seem to have like two or three themes going on. Number one, I have been in grad school this year, and I want to do two things for my reading life. I want to read those gentle, pastoral, soothing, but something you could put on a child's bookshelf in the Lake District in the pastoral times. I want to read gentle stuff, and I also want to read-

ANNE: That's very specific.

[00:30:36] GINGER: Well, it's so specific because there's a forum about personal curriculum in the book club, and people have been helping me put together my exact reading list. It involves Winnie-the-Pooh and The Secret Garden and things like that.

But I also want to read the buzziest of the buzziest. You said that people aren't feeling very sweary this year. Oh, I want controversy. I want drama. Bring on all of the sweary, art theft, juicy... That is exactly what I want. And several of the authors that are on the Summer Reading Guide I think are going to come through on that for me.

There are destinations that are places I want to go. There are authors that are always auto-buy authors for me. There is at least one author that I am a complete... No, two authors that I am a completist for, and one that I would love to be a completist for. So I want to go places, I want buzzy, I want controversy. And then, you know, I'll just top that off in the evenings with a gentle breeze and James Herriot kind of calling over the plains to me. So I think we can contain multitudes, but that is what I am hoping for for my summer reading life.

[00:31:44] ANNE: Ooh, I like your very specific vibes. Well, for years now, I've done a remix of the books in the back of the guide. I just want to put them in front of you in a different way than they're originally categorized so that if a book that was set in a category that's heavy on historical fiction didn't catch your eye, maybe if I describe it as a book that had music galore that would inspire you to make a playlist, maybe that would get your attention and reconsider a book that you had glossed over the first time. Because there is a lot of that this summer. There are quite a few specific books I read to vet for the guide, but four that made it into the guide, that there are so many artists and even specific tracks name-checked that I was like, "Well, okay. I just put down my book, but now I'm making dinner. I have to listen to these songs they've been talking about." So I really enjoyed that.

[00:32:37] There were a weird number of mentions and epigraphs from Rainer Maria Rilke, the patron saint of What Should I Read Next?, because we quote him at the end of every episode, "Ah, how good it is to be among people who are reading." There are five debut novels in this year's guide. The longest book is 592 pages. The shortest is under 100. There are… how many works in translation? There are four.

I'm going to tell you at Unboxing about the book that my 16-year-old saw sitting on the counter, one of those works in translation, and was like, "That looks cool. Would I like that? Can I take this to school?" So, you know, that made my heart sing.

We have books that are on the shorter side, like 224 or less. We have books on the longer side, 450 and up. Lots of books to take you around the world. I told you about the immersive books I gulp down in two days or sometimes... I was going to say closer to two hours. That's an exaggeration, but more like 24 hours. Yes, absolutely. Lots of thorny relationship dramas, a nice amount of magical realism. There's just lots of good stuff in this year's guide.

[00:33:41] GINGER: And aside from the books, both of our communities have so much fun stuff planned. We mentioned bonus episodes. Book club really comes alive in the summer. We have got our readers weekend, we have got Austin in August, and we have a really fun class planned for June that will involve a lot of team members, and a lot of tips for doing just what we hear that you all want to do, which is slow down and savor at certain points in your reading life. And so we're going to share a lot of strategies and tips for that.

So, we have got places in the community. If you want to not just read the books, but you want to talk about them, you want to talk about them with fellow readers, you want to celebrate your reading life and celebrate your reading wins, we would love to have you in either of those communities. They are both such warm and welcoming places. And especially in the summer, we know that we get people that kind of come in and out depending on their reading lives. Hello, so many teachers. We love you.

ANNE: I was just thinking that.

[00:34:39] GINGER: But if this sounds like a place that you would want to be in the summer, or any time of the year, this is a great time to jump in.

ANNE: And we really want to be at your service as you make your reading life work for you. And the Summer Reading Guide can absolutely be your beginning and your end of summer discovery, but it can also be the leaping-off point for summer of lots more discovery and enjoyment. So if you're interested in exploring more, I know many of you are… in our Patreon community, I just released a bonus episode a couple weeks back that was featuring April 2026 releases that I thought were 100% worth talking about, but were not in the pages of the Summer Reading Guide.

So I know many of you often read the guide thinking, "Is she going to include the whatever?" So preemptively, I'm telling you, here's some like early Summer Reading Guide-ish picks, and also if you're wondering where the new book by whoever is, it's not in. I can tell you now, it's right here. And if you want new releases that are already out, they are all out as of now.

[00:35:44] We also do a bonus Patreon episode that we also make available to all our book clubbers. This is always, for several years now, the first bonus after the guide releases, where I go really in-depth and answer so many Summer Reading Guide questions from unboxing and from our community comments in the wake of unboxing. And then our first Patreon mini matchmaking episode after the guide release will be specifically for Summer Reading Guide books, when you're saying, "Okay, Anne, this is what I've enjoyed lately. This is what I haven't. This is what I'm looking for." Readers will often tell me, "These are the Summer Reading Guide books I'm considering. What do you think?" And I'll tell you.

GINGER: It's one of the really nice things about this guide. And I have yet to discover in all the bookish worlds that I inhabit anyone who reads every book that they promote on the guide. And I just want to give you more props. I know you mentioned it, but it is so much work that you put in to reading, and not just vetting and making sure that they are right for the guide, but also the availability to answer questions for these communities to, you know, yeah, clock in, "No, that one probably wouldn't be right for you," or, "Yes, this one sounds right up your alley based on what you've told me." That is a huge part of the work that you put into this, and man, do we as readers get to benefit from that.

[00:37:00] ANNE: Well, one of our core values is trust. Sometimes you readers, our team members, hear me all the time refer back to the values that guide us as a team and me as a creator. And when it comes to trust, I feel like you need to know that I'm not just making stuff up or regurgitating marketing copy. Now, sometimes in our previews I'll say, "This is how the publisher is pitching it," and that is true, and I'll be very clear that I do not have the personal experience there. But in the guide, yeah, I have read every word, and I want you to know what you are getting from us. That's really important.

Maybe I should've started by saying thank you, Ginger. We work hard to make this really good, and I just really hope you all continue to find it a really useful tool, and, like my friend Nikki said, a gateway to reliable reading joy.

And I hadn't planned to talk about our philosophy, not just philosophy, but guidelines, laws about artificial intelligence that we have for our team, but it really just plays right into our team core value of trust. We want to be honest and forthright and dependable in our content, in its delivery.

[00:38:09] We are known, and we've worked hard to be known for our taste, whether or not you think it's good taste, I think you know it's my taste, and for our reliability in, you know, bringing news and opinions and ideas from the book world to you. We really want to celebrate the written word and the people who create the books we love to read. And we want you to know all these books are human-selected. We don't use generative AI. No ChatGPT, no Claude, no Gemini. No algorithms are picking these books. No any computers. No... I mean, I'm using my MacBook, okay? But machines are not writing our blurbs. We don't use digital tools to choose books for our guests or for our blog in any way. And not for the Summer Reading Guide either. All our work is our own.

[00:38:59] And this is the time-consuming, old-fashioned way, and y'all, it kills me to then see our stuff turned around and copied verbatim, and then... This is one of the reasons I'm not on Instagram anymore. It just makes me sad. But we do work hard to create good stuff that you enjoy reading or listening to. We take our reading lives and your reading lives... I hope at the same time, both we don't take ourselves seriously, but we take this stuff really seriously. Life is hard, and good books can be such a source of joy and connection and respite, that really energetic peace and rejuvenating calm, and we want that for you and think you deserve our best effort. And now I'm just going... I repeat myself for emphasis. I just repeat. I really mean it. You can tell because I keep saying it.

GINGER: It is fun work, but it is hard work. I was going to insert a joke here that you can not only trust that these are books that are picked by someone with taste, but you can also just trust that they are actually books that exist. Unlike one certain AI-generated book list that was traveling around the internet last summer. These all do exist.

[00:40:12] ANNE: Which was so funny and also so sad at the same time.

GINGER: Oh, such a moment. Such a moment in time, exactly. These all do exist. You can go to the bookstore and buy them or put them on your library holds list. We promise. That is our solemn vow.

ANNE: And that reminds me, just thinking about the generative AI, we do work really hard. It's expensive and costly in many ways, both financially, in time and energy and labor, to create good stuff for you. And we really ask that you respect the work that went into it. There's a page in the guide that shows all the covers, all the little thumbnail images. It's so pretty. Please don't put that on your Instagram. We would really like to keep that for the people who've gotten the guide.

And we hope you can understand that it hurts when our work is copied or misused, whether that's by the obvious plagiarism that has become more and more of an issue over the years, but also by feeding it for free to those large language models, like ChatGPT or Claude or Gemini. Please don't copy-paste our stuff in there. We don't want it to be used for training. We don't want it to be remixed, and we would be really grateful if you would refrain from any action that would result in our work being used for that kind of thing. We have a little note in the guide, but it's worth saying again.

[00:41:22] GINGER: This is the one time that imitation is not a sincere form of flattery. Well, I guess we've said a million trillion words about the guide, and so now if you're wondering where you can get that, Anne, you want to tell us?

ANNE: Oh, that does seem important.

GINGER: Yes. Tell us how one would get their hands on a copy digitally or a print guide, and an invite to that Unboxing. Hello, the big book party. I will start off by saying that it is a perk for Patreon members and book club members. If you are already in those spaces, you absolutely know that you are in the right spot. That will hit your inbox as it always has. It will be on all the pages, you know, all the spaces that you know to go look for events and resources.

[00:42:09] But we also offer an à la carte version, and so if you have chosen that those are not the communities that you are willing to commit to right now, totally understand, and we want to make sure that you have the availability to get yourself the guide and also an invite to the unboxing.

ANNE: Please visit modernmrsdarcy.com/srg, for Summer Reading Guide, to get your à la carte copy of the guide. We really would love you to join one of our communities if you are so inclined. That does financially, and really from a morale perspective, support the work we do day in and day out here for What Should I Read Next? And it's, I think, where we put our best stuff.

And you'll hear from more of our team in our communities, What Should I Read Next? Patreon for our bonus episodes and fun events, and Modern Mrs Darcy Book Club for community, classes, and conversation. This is where we host almost monthly author chats, regular classes, member meetups, and all kinds of stuff to help you get more out of your reading life by learning to read better together with your fellow book clubbers.

[00:43:11] GINGER: Can I put in a little plug? Because they are both valid ways to get the guide, à la carte or a member community. But if you are the kind of person who is excited about reading 35 potential blurbs of four books you might want to put on your TBR, and you want to talk about summer reading, and you want to nerd out about what books are going on your list, you might want some more bookish friends. So if that feels right to you, it might just be the place that you find your people, you find your book people, and you find a community. And I would just say, yeah, give it a try. Summer is a great time to find those bookish friends. And if you are the kind of person who nerds out about summer reading, you might find your people there.

ANNE: Indeed, it's a great place to be. And if you were fuzzy on what Modern Mrs Darcy Book Club was at the beginning of this episode, Ginger is our community manager for this space. And so Ginger, I feel like you're always singing the book club song.

[00:44:06] GINGER: I know. It doesn't feel like I have to sell it to anybody because I absolutely believe in this community. It has made me a better reader. I cannot even picture what my reading life would be like, what my reading list would look like without this community. I found out about so many books this way, and I have found so many true friends this way. So I just cannot even imagine my reading life without it. Can you hear me saying, "Come be my friend"?

ANNE: Well, I'm so glad to be your friend and to be a part of it. And if you don't have the time or inclination to join a community, we got you. It's at modernmrsdarcy.com/srg. Okay, I want to acknowledge the next part can be a little bit confusing, but you can also get a hard copy printed guide, Summer Reading Guide, that shows up as a magazine in your inbox via snail mail. You can get that independently, which will not include unboxing or the digital PDF, or you can buy it as an add-on. But that is an option.

[00:45:07] We did it for the first time last year, and the only thing I dislike about it is... I mean, it takes over my house for a couple days, but worth it. The only thing I dislike about it is the terminology. Like, I don't want anyone to be confused. I want you to know what you're getting and get what you expect. But if you are so inclined, or you like the sound of having a print copy, I really encourage you to go this direction.

I did a lot of printing the guide myself here locally in the years between 2012 and 2025, and it is really expensive, and the results are very hit and miss. But Will Bogel has worked just hand-in-hand with our local printers these past couple years. We printed a lot of things to ramp up to doing the guide for the first time last year to make sure we get a gorgeous edition at the lowest cost we can, and order as many as we can. So please order your guide. It makes it more affordable for everybody.

[00:46:05] But we get that nice bulk printing discount. We know we're getting top-notch quality, and we can pass that bulk printing discount along to you. So ordering from us will be cheaper, your result will be better. You'll have to wait for the USPS to bring it to your door, because we don't wrap this thing in March so that we know you'll have it ready and in your hands on May 14th, because I want to read as much as I can to get you as many books. But we do expect to have these in hand, I hope, before May 14th, so it'll be arriving then or shortly thereafter, but we'll definitely be mailing them by May 14th. And if you want one to pop up in your mailbox, we would be delighted to send one your way.

GINGER: It's worth the extra communication because they are really pretty. So it is worth a little extra moment acknowledging that you can get a hard copy because if you are so inclined. Oh, they're so pretty. I miss old school magazines coming to my mailbox, and this is one way to recapture that.

[00:46:57] ANNE: Oh, I still love a magazine. I love a magazine. I mean, the kids say print's coming back.

GINGER: Hear, hear.

ANNE: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

GINGER: Love it.

ANNE: My 16-year-old is buying cassette tapes, and I'm here for the hard media resurgence.

GINGER: Oh, man. All right. I'll listen to a 16-year-old, right? Surely they know what's cool.

ANNE: I am so sorry to say that right now we are only shipping to the United States. That has not always been the case, and I hope it will not always be the case. But we're a small business. We cannot keep up with what's happening in the global landscape, and that is the case right now. So if you're in the US or have a US mailing address and want a copy, we would be delighted to send that to you. And we'll have links for everything we talked about in the show notes for today's episode. Oh, too many details? I do love a detail. Look, we want you to know what you need to know.

All right, Ginger, final question, because we gotta end on a more fun note than shipping. Something you're most looking forward to in your summer reading, or something you're most excited for readers to experience with their summer reading?

[00:48:00] GINGER: Ooh, that's a great question. Okay, there could be many answers to this, but I have got to say one thing that we have not talked about is in the guide that I am so excited for people to see, and that is that somehow in the archives, the team that put this together, probably mostly you, Anne, went through and found like 15 standout moments, one from every year. And some of them...

ANNE: That was me.

GINGER: Oh my gosh, I remembered many of those, but there were some that I had completely forgotten about. Delight upon delight upon delight. And so I thought, now, if you've been around here a long time, that is going to be the most blast from the past, look down memory lane. But also, we have had this year of celebration, and I keep thinking, if you are new around here, and you've discovered this warm, bookish community, and you are wondering, "I've got 10 years to catch back up on. I've got 15 years to catch back up on," this is kind of one of those things that's like a little shortcut to "here's the best of the best". And so start here. Check this out. It's not so overwhelming. Here are 10 or 15 things that we loved and that are great memories. I just love that part. It was so fun, and I giggled multiple times. And, I mean, again- it just looks really beautiful, so shout-out to the team who put that together.

[00:49:09] ANNE: It does look really beautiful. So thank you for the compliment for my editorial eye. But also, this year our guide was designed by a What Should I Read Next? alum.

GINGER: That's right.

ANNE: In fact, we first connected when Julie Van Huizen was on the podcast back on March 12th, 2024. She's episode 421, fittingly called Go Ahead, Judge That Book by Its Cover, because she is a designer, and she has an eye for that kind of thing. And so in this year's guide, she brought her eye to our summer reading explorations, and the final result is just, like... I mean, we gushed. We gushed about it.

GINGER: Yeah. Good job, Julie. It's real pretty, as they say. And yeah, what a full-circle moment here on What Should I Read Next?

[00:49:58] ANNE: Full circle. Okay, what I'm looking forward to for our readers this summer, I wish everyone the pleasure of reading and deeply, deeply enjoying a book from a favorite author that caught their eye that they thought, "Oh, that book's for me." And I want them to read it and love it and go, "Yes, that was so worth waiting for." And also, I imagine with joy, and I do wish for them the experience of finding a book that makes them go, "I'm intrigued. I don't even know why. This isn't what I was looking for. I'm going to take a chance on this unfamiliar thing that feels a little bit outside my lane," and read it and go, "Ugh, I had no idea I wanted a book like that, but I'm so glad I read it."

GINGER: Yes. May we all have all of those experiences this summer.

ANNE: All the books, all the things, all the feelings. Oh, Ginger, thank you for joining us as collaborator and co-discoverer and creator.

[00:51:04] GINGER: Thank you for having me, and I am always here to talk about summer reading. I hope to hear from many of you, whether that's in the comments here on the post, in both of our community spaces. I just can't wait to talk more summer reading. Anne, this was a delight to talk with you, and here we go. This begins the most nerdiest time of the year.

ANNE: Ah, the pleasure is mine, and I hope all of yours, and that it's just a really wonderful reading summer.

Readers, I hope you enjoyed our conversation today. I'd love to hear your Summer Reading Guide questions or whether there are any titles you're expecting or hoping to see featured in this year's guide, although mum’s going to be the word, so that thing is out on May 14th. You will find the list of titles that Ginger and I discussed today and all the Summer Reading Guide links and details you need to know at whatshouldireadnextpodcast.com. If you want to go in and grab your à la carte access, that's at modernmrsdarcy.com/srg for Summer Reading Guide.

[00:52:06] Follow our show on Instagram at @WhatShouldIReadNext, where our capable, competent, delightful social media manager, Leigh Kramer, will be sharing some behind-the-scenes peeks. And if you do join us for Thursday celebrations, we'd love to ask that you wait to share your excitement about those actual selections so that we don't spoil any surprises for those getting the guide later.

The 2026 Summer Reading Guide is exclusively for our members and à la carte purchasers, so please do avoid spoilers when sharing about the Summer Reading Guide on social media. And thank you so much for supporting the work we do and looking out for your fellow readers.

Please join our email list. This is our favorite way to share all our news and events and happenings for stuff like our Summer Reading Guide, plus our weekly episodes and other bookish happenings. Sign up at whatshouldireadnextpodcast.com/newsletter.

[00:52:58] Thank you to Ginger Horton for joining me today and to all the people who make the show happen. What Should I Read Next? is created each week by executive producer Will Bogel, Media production specialist Holly Wielkoszewski, social media manager and editor Leigh Kramer, community coordinator Brigid Misselhorn, community manager Shannan Malone, and our whole team at What Should I Read Next? and Modern Mrs Darcy HQ. Plus the audio whizzes at Studio D Podcast Production.

Readers, that's it for this episode. Thanks so much for listening. And as Rainer Maria Rilke said, "Ah, how good it is to be among people who are reading." Happy reading, everyone.

[00:00:00] LEE WEICK: Also, some of the ones I'm really interested in are in that very, very long book list. And so for me to get to them, I have to have you tell me some short books I can read so I can get to those long biographies.

ANNE BOGEL: I will see what I can do.

ANNE: Hey readers, I'm Anne Bogel, and this is What Should I Read Next?. Welcome to the show that's dedicated to answering the question that plagues every reader, what should I read next? We don't get bossy on this show. What we will do here is give you the information you need to choose your next read. Every week we'll talk all things books and reading and do a little literary matchmaking with one guest.

[00:00:51] Readers, the Summer Reading Guide release is just around the corner, which means it's the time of year we welcome many new members to our Patreon community. When you join us there, you get immediate access to all our past Summer Reading Guides and seasonal previews, plus our weekly bonus episodes, and of course, this year's 15th Summer Reading Guide and Live Unboxing event. Choose from monthly or annual membership options that help you enjoy all that we do over in Patreon while also financially supporting our show and our team.

Many of our members join us for the summer reading season and then stick around for events and community all year long. They love it there, and I think you may, too. Find out more at patreon.com/whatshouldireadnext. That's patreon.com/whatshouldireadnext.

[00:01:35] Readers, today I'm happy to get to talk books with Lee Weick, a Michigan-dwelling former teacher and grandmother who knows that variety keeps her reading life going. She loves big, long books and is most satisfied with her reading life when she's reading those big books on a regular basis. And she already has half a dozen such books that she's looking forward to reading on her to-be-read list. But as you will hear, Lee has learned that the rhythms of her reading life require a nice, steady supply of books on the shorter side, or she'll never be able to read the 800 or 900-page ones.

The sticking point here is Lee is feeling stuck when it comes to finding those shorter reads, especially those right around 200 pages. Less would not be unwelcome, but she wants them to still feel substantial, thought-provoking, and interesting.

Well, I personally keep an eye out for audiobooks about this length. I love a short audiobook, so my mind is already bursting with ideas for Lee. But I can't wait to hear more from her about what she enjoys, especially what kinds of books she finds interesting, because that's a really personal question. I hope by the end of our time together, I can put a few shorter books on Lee's radar that sound right up her alley. Let's get to it.

[00:02:52] Lee, welcome to the show.

LEE: I am thrilled to be here, Anne. Thanks for having me.

ANNE: Oh, the pleasure is mine. I'm excited to dig in today. Lee, we love to start by just giving our listeners a glimpse of who they are hearing from. Would you tell us a little about yourself?

LEE: I'm a former teacher, the mother of eight and grandmother of one delightful granddaughter named Daisy, which I know is a name near and dear to your heart.

ANNE: Yes, it is.

LEE: I'm coming to you from Northern Michigan, but I grew up in Georgia. One of my favorite things was when I was a teacher, I loved teaching reading. Even now, when I have an opportunity to tutor children, I love to teach reading. Initially, it was to first graders and then to my own children, who are some of the most well-read, voracious readers I've ever met. They have a sibling book club, which obviously I'm not a party to, but it's a great...

ANNE: You can still be happy to know what's happening.

[00:03:53] LEE: Yes, absolutely. Delighted. I'm on staff with a nonprofit called World Orphans. We focus on family preservation. And in my free time, I enjoy lake activities and baking, but mostly reading. And the best times are always the ones with my granddaughter, who lives down the road.

ANNE: Well, that sounds lovely. Now tell us about your reading life, whatever you think we need to know.

LEE: Well, my father taught me to read when I was about four, and I've been a voracious reader ever since. As a child, I especially loved biographies. So in second, third, fourth grade, I read every biography in the library. That came back to me during college when I had little time to choose my own reading. I had so much reading to do for school, but in order to stay on track of just being able to read what I wanted to, I would go to the library and pick a biography from each letter of the alphabet. So I read through the alphabet biographies just to stay on track with some other reading.

[00:05:01] I've also thought as an adult that I didn't like magical realism but then I realized that one of my favorite books as a child was a book called Fog Magic. And that is exactly what it is. It's very historical kind of fiction, but with a significant magical element. And I found that delightful.

As a busy mother, I always read at bedtime. I fell asleep with my nose in a book frequently and had to reread pages, but I made it a habit because that was the only time of day I could just sit and read what I wanted to read. My children love that I read one James Michener novel during each pregnancy. So eight James Micheners.

ANNE: Those are big ones, too.

LEE: They always want to know, well, which one did you read when you were pregnant with me? While I was teaching literature and writing in our homeschool co-op, that kept me engaged with classic rereads and a few new titles. But when my friend Pam learned that I hadn't read a book published after about 1970 in decades, she urged me to join her book club. And it was life-changing.

[00:06:10] I really had a bias against contemporary literature and frequently would go through periods where I only read classics. But she and that book club introduced me to so many wonderful new titles. And they relied on me for the classics. So these days I read a wide variety. I really do like variety. That's what keeps me going. I love historical fiction. I love family drama, mysteries, magical realism a bit.

And I enjoy trying the unusual. For example, The English Understand Wool and The History of Sound are two that I read in the last year that were unlike... each of those was unlike anything I'd ever read before. And I enjoyed them. But I also like my old reliable favorites like Jane Austen and a new favorite, thanks to you, Maggie O'Farrell. My favorite three living authors are Maggie O'Farrell, Erik Larson, and Amor Towles. Although none of them show up in my books that I'm going to bring.

[00:07:17] ANNE: Well, look how you just snuck them right in.

LEE: Yeah, they deserve a shout-out. They're so great.

ANNE: All right. Thank you for the backdrop. Now, you've been listening for a couple of years. What brings you to What Should I Read Next? now? Where are you in your reading life and what are you looking for?

LEE: I noticed that I was reading a certain type of book over the last few years. It was great because I'd been introduced to these new contemporary fiction. But I was reading books that all fell in the 350-to-450-page count and were primarily, not exclusively, but primarily contemporary fiction. I had a number of lengthy books on my TBR and really wanted to get to them.

Team of Rivals has been sitting on my nightstand for two or three years. And it's a long book, more than 700 pages. But I really wanted to read it. And so I was asking myself, "Why don't I pick it up and read it?" And I discovered that it was because I like having several different books going at the same time. I don't just read one book straight through. I want some variety. I'm a little bit of a mood reader.

[00:08:38] So I want to be able to dip in and out of some different topics or some things that feel different in their style. And if I start into a long book, I was concerned that it would just get tedious for me, that I needed something to dip in and out of. But when I would do that and then dip in a 400-page book, I would never get back to the long book. So I decided that if I had shorter books to go with the long one, I need something under 200 pages, maybe under 250 pages in that range, then I would be able to have the variety I want without pulling me away from the longer books. So that's why I'm coming to you is to help me find some high-quality shorter books. The long ones, I have no trouble. I'm hoping to read six or seven of them this year.

ANNE: Mm-hmm. Are they all stacked up with Team of Rivals? I mean, maybe not literally on your nightstand.

[00:09:35] LEE: In my mind. I mostly have the longer ones selected, but I'm having a hard time finding shorter ones that are of a good quality. I can find short books, but not things that have some depth or hold my interest.

ANNE: Ooh, okay. This may be a hard question, but, Lee?

LEE: Yes?

ANNE: Tell me more about depth. Like, what makes a novel feel substantial to you, even though it may be slim? And when you say you want it to hold your interest, I mean, what do you find interesting? The English Understand Wool tells me a lot. But that's just one example. I'd love to hear you reflect on this.

LEE: That is a very good question. I read such a wide variety of books that it's not a simple, straight-line answer.

[00:10:29] ANNE: I imagine you have a good idea about some reading experiences that are emblematic of what you're pointing toward. But also I wonder if we might be talking our way towards an answer a little bit.

LEE: Yes. I do think that we may find that it has to do with the interaction between people and seeing some of the inner life of a person and how they learn and grow and discover more about themselves. But it's also key to have that interaction between other people. So I think the relationships have a lot to do with it. I also think that some seriousness, some principles, some philosophy, even if it's light, doesn't have to be deep and heavy all the time. But something of substance.

ANNE: Again, substance. Say more about substance, please.

LEE: Okay.

ANNE: That sounded so bossy.

LEE: That's okay.

ANNE: Tell me, Lee, tell me.

[00:11:36] LEE: Yes. Layers, I think. Again, it doesn't have to be heavy or serious or hard, although that's okay, too. But to have some layers that are unfolding. Maybe a quest or a mystery.

ANNE: Okay. I'm intrigued by that idea of layers. I'm thinking about a book that doesn't give the reader everything there is in the story on the first reading. Like one that could stand up to poking and prodding and questioning.

LEE: Yes. I think you're headed in the right direction. If you even think about The English Understand Wool, that's-

ANNE: Okay, tell us about that book since we're referencing it as a type for you several times.

LEE: It's very short. It's very pithy. The main character is a young girl, a young woman who most people would say has been badly treated. I don't want to give away too much. But I think people would look at her situation and assess it that she's been ill-treated in her life, but she does not perceive it that way at all.

[00:12:51] And so it's a little bit challenging to figure out what has actually gone on in her life. Who are these people in her life and what has happened to her unfolds mysteriously. And even by the end, it's not crystal clear, but seeing her inner life and how she perceives herself, I think that is something to do with showing different perspectives that people have on a situation. But it's exactly what you said, that everything about the book and what the author is trying to say, the meaning of it is not very clear immediately, and really needs to be re-read, talked about with someone else to get beneath the layers.

ANNE: And there's a lot going on in that book. It's tricksy and also it's like a send-up of the publishing industry and the psychological thriller. And the tone is really something else. This isn't even one of your favorites and yet we feel compelled to talk about it.

[00:14:09] You know, what else is interesting is The English Understand Wool is a novella as part of the New Directions series of interestingly, eye-catchingly packaged novellas. And I was noticing, just thinking about the kind of books that might be right for you, that some authors tend to write books that are short, but Helen DeWitt is not one of those authors. And I'm just now noticing that.

Like her most recent book that was published, Your Name Here, is extremely large. That would belong on the flip side of the books that belong in your reading life. But okay, I'm digressing. We're going to pull this back in. So when we're talking about books of substance that hold your interest, you've talked a little bit about the kinds of genres you enjoy, so we're really looking to give you the variety that's going to keep you going in your reading life, and especially with those longer books that you know you want to be able to prioritize reading.

LEE: Exactly.

[00:15:06] ANNE: Lee, you know how this works. You brought me three books you love, one book you don't, and what you've been reading lately, and we'll explore books on the shorter side that you may enjoy reading next. How did you decide what books to bring to the show today?

LEE: That is so interesting how that process went, because if you had asked me a year ago, I think I would have had a completely different list of books. But I just sat down and quickly popped out three titles. And when I went back and looked at what I wrote down, they were not at all what I would have thought.

ANNE: Okay, I can actually tell you what titles you sent in when you submitted on Tuesday, December 3, 2024.

LEE: Okay.

ANNE: Summer at Buckhorn.

LEE: It's a great one.

ANNE: Which I'm not familiar with.

LEE: It's out of print.

ANNE: I love an out-of-print title in the books you love. Anna Karenina, and a book by Erik Larson — you said he's one of your three living favorites — Dead Wake.

[00:16:05] LEE: Yes, and I still love all those books. You know, and many of your guests say it is extremely difficult to pick three books. And I do love these three books I picked, but that doesn't necessarily mean they're my top three all-time favorites.

ANNE: Although in February 2025, you did choose one of the books I believe you're going to be sharing with us today.

LEE: I know.

ANNE: And What Alice Forgot and Dead Wake.

LEE: Also great.

ANNE: That's it for the glimpses into Lee's past that I have.

LEE: Okay.

ANNE: We have extinguished.

LEE: That is very interesting.

ANNE: So I like this going from the gut approach. Where did it lead you? What's the first book you love?

[00:16:53] LEE: The first book is called Vera, or Faith. It's by Gary Shteyngart. I've never heard of him before. I've never read anything else by him. My daughter recommended this book to me, and I was pretty skeptical. It's relatively new. I think it's been out only about a year, maybe a year and a half.

But it's a story of a family. The setting is dystopian America. This family is going under a lot of stress, just a tremendous amount of variety of stresses. And you see the family life through the eyes of a 10-year-old girl. She's the only child. And initially, she's introduced through her school experience where she's very different. She's very bright, very creative, ethnically unlike her classmates. And so you get some insight into her inner world that way, but also how she's relating to the adults in her life and the problems that they are going through.

[00:17:55] This is a hard, in some ways, painful book. It's very realistic, but also quirky and smart and funny and sweet and tender. Shteyngart really doesn't waste any words. It's a short book, but it's rich. I think what I love about it is the family relationships. The child's inner life is so fascinating and relatable. I think it's difficult to write a child well. She's on a quest. So that unfolding mystery of her quest is captivating. And it has a very hopeful tone.

ANNE: I've only read Our Country Friends by him, but I've heard good things about this one. I was so curious to hear what you would say.

LEE: It's a really wonderful, delightful book.

ANNE: Okay. Quirky, smart, sweet, tender. I'm making notes. Lee, what's the second book you love?

[00:18:58] LEE: Patriot by Alexei Navalny. He is a Russian... well, he's deceased now, but he was the counterpart, antagonist, if you will, to the current administration in Russia. And he was viewed as a troublemaker. He was a patriot. He wanted so much for his country, for people to be free, to be able to determine their own government, their own way of life. He really was enemy number one for Putin for a long time.

This book is his memoir, he talks about his childhood, his growing up, but it's written from a Russian prison. And much of the time he is going through isolation, torture, ill health. It talks about his philosophy, his politics, a lot of humor, has some letters to his family. It is one of the most compelling books I've ever read.

[00:20:12] I have so much admiration for him. He's passionate. He's funny. He's hopeful. His aspirations for his country were frustrated and his liberty assaulted in the worst possible ways from the very darkest Russian prisons. He writes matter-of-factly and humbly with humor and hope. And it kind of reminded me of Man's Search for Meaning by Viktor Frankl, just some of those tones of "I'm experiencing the worst that human beings can do to other human beings, but I press on and I am hopeful".

ANNE: Now, you mentioned you love to read biographies.

LEE: Yes.

ANNE: Is this the kind of book we'd see in your mix very often?

[00:21:03] LEE: From time to time. I read a great many biographies when I was younger. I don't find as many biographies now that I'm interested in. Also, some of the ones I'm really interested in are in that very, very long book list. So for me to get to them, I have to have you tell me some short books I can read so I can get to those long biographies.

ANNE: I will see what I can do. But yes, as I picture the biographies that I anticipate reading on my bookshelf, 800, 900 pages or more, not uncommon.

LEE: Yes, that's right.

ANNE: But I'm typically glad I made time for them when I do. Lee, what's the third book you love?

LEE: The third book is The Count of Monte Cristo. And I would say this one is amongst my top all-time favorites and often, I would say, is my number one favorite book of all time. And it's a long one. It's an epic adventure story. It's inspired by a real-life case, actually.

[00:22:16] It has full of twists and turns. The main character, Edmond Dantès, is accused of a crime he did not commit. And the agonies and frustrations and resentments that build in Him lead to much of the plot of the rest of the story. His frustrations and his suffering are painful, but I find that I appreciate and value reading about the pains and the frustrations of a person's life as long as there's hope and they keep moving forward. I think that's what I loved about Edmond Dantès.

He's very real and relatable. Even though his character has some flaws, he's an imperfect human being, as we all are, and makes some questionable choices, he's still quite lovable. I was rooting for him, even though there were times when I thought, oh, he's taking some bad turns. He's not the type of person maybe I would want to be in all instances. But he's the type of person many or most of us are in certain situations. So he's very relatable and very lovable.

[00:23:41] I did have an opportunity to actually visit a castle in Switzerland on Lake Geneva that was a castle that inspired Alexandre Dumas when he was writing this story.

ANNE: What?

LEE: Yes. I walked around that castle. I didn't take the tour that they wanted to give me. I just spent hours wandering around the castle and sitting and reflecting on what Alexandre Dumas must have been thinking when he was there. And then as he was writing The Count of Monte Cristo, he used that as a type for the Château d'If that is featured heavily in the book.

ANNE: Well, that's incredible. Was that after you'd read the book?

LEE: Yes. I've read the book three times, I think.

ANNE: I was going to say, I would have wanted to read it again after that.

LEE: Exactly. I read it once when I was relatively young, and then I brought it to our book club who almost didn't agree to read it because it's so long.

[00:24:43] ANNE: How many pages is it? I listened to the audio, which I remember being 45 hours.

LEE: I'm really not sure, but I want to say it's around 800, maybe. It's one of the longest books I've ever read. It could be longer than that.

ANNE: Maybe it's better to listeners considering it if they don't know.

LEE: Yes. It's long, but it's very engaging. Very, very engaging.

ANNE: It's telling that you've loved it enough that it's been consistent in your favorites over time, and you've read it multiple times. And thank you for what you said about pain and frustrations and how you're looking for that to relate to hope in your stories. That's helpful.

LEE: Mm-hmm.

ANNE: Okay. Lee, tell me about a book that wasn't right for you.

LEE: I sometimes hear people say that this was difficult. I didn't find this difficult at all. In fact, I thought of a number of books that weren't right for me. But I chose one particularly because it's a good book. I believe it's well-written. So it's not that the book didn't have quality. It's that it wasn't right for me.

[00:25:50] It's The Vaster Wilds by Lauren Groff. And it has lovely writing. She's a brilliant writer. It's very atmospheric, and I did like that part. But even though it's quite short, I found myself sloshing through it. I had to force myself to finish it. And I think the reason is because there was no dialogue. I started to say not enough dialogue. But if I'm remembering correctly, there was almost no dialogue. There are no other people. It's mostly this one girl who has escaped servitude, wandering through and trying to survive the wilderness. And it just became very same, same to me.

[00:26:41] So I enjoyed the first few pages, and I thought, "Oh, this is intriguing. It's very atmospheric." So I kept waiting for where it was going to go next, and it seemed like it kept going to the same places, or they were very similar places. It just became very repetitive to me, or had the same feeling.

And I didn't enjoy some of the gross descriptions that some people get a big kick out of. I think I might have appreciated this character, the young girl, as a person. But I had no opportunities to observe her interacting with others. And I didn't know this before, but on reflecting about this book and why I didn't like it, it has come to my attention that that matters to me.

[00:27:32] So, for example, even in a Michener book, you have a similar thing to this description of a wilderness. At the very beginning of those books, he lays the groundwork for the rest of the novel by talking about the prehistoric place. All his books are focused around a place. So he describes the prehistoric setting in pretty great detail. And there's no people and no interaction between people. And just when I would think I can't bear this another minute, he stopped and went on with the story. And the people came, and they began to interact and talk. And Lauren Groff's book never did that.

ANNE: Okay. Yeah, well, her interactions happen at a distance. I can remember one man she sees after she flees, and then in her memory. And you were hoping for more like immediate, vivid descriptions of people relating to each other in your fiction in general.

LEE: Apparently.

ANNE: Apparently. Okay, we're going to go with it for our purposes today. Until we decide to do otherwise, we're going to go with it. Lee, what have you been reading lately?

[00:28:44] LEE: Recently, I listened to audio. And I'm not a huge audiobook person, but if I'm driving more than a couple of hours, I will listen to an audiobook. And this one was perfect audiobook. It's called Shakespeare: The Man Who Pays the Rent by Judi Dench.

ANNE: I listened to that on audio on a road trip.

LEE: Oh, it's the only way. I've never seen the book in print, but I cannot imagine reading that book any other way than audio. Judi Dench is delightful. She's brilliant and funny. And the book is an interview with her, as you know.

I felt like I got a mini course in Shakespearean literature via Judi Dench and a little bit of the theater, like behind the scenes of theater. And it's about her life, but a lot of it is about Shakespearean plays and how they were presented and the British theater. And I just found that delightful.

[00:29:48] I've also been reading The Unselected Journals of Emma M. Lyon by Beth Brower.

ANNE: You and everybody else [inaudible 00:29:55].

LEE: Yes. Yes. It's very, very popular. Wildly popular. I am really enjoying them, especially in contrast to some heavier things. So that's where I enjoy kind of that mood reading or that bouncing off of if I'm reading something very serious or a little more dry than to have something like Emma M. Lyon to dip into as fun. I appreciate The Unselected Journals of Emma M. Lyon because they are delightful, have some humor, they're lighter, but they're not fluff. I think there's some good character development, there's some topics that we all deal with that Emma walks through, but the best part about it is it puts me in a place I want to be. And that is Victorian England, or any England.

ANNE: Well, then I'm glad you found them. And there's plenty of them, so that can be your Victorian escapism for quite a while.

LEE: Yes.

[00:30:56] ANNE: How are those working as perhaps counterbalances to these long books?

LEE: Initially, okay, because the first couple are fairly short, but they get longer as you go along, so the tone of them work well for that purpose, but the length of the later ones, again, has me swept into Emma M. Lyon for too long and neglect my Lonesome Dove that I want to read.

ANNE: Okay. So you'd like something that's more a distinct standalone reading experience?

LEE: Yes.

ANNE: Okay. That is helpful. Now, Lee, you've told us what you're looking for in your reading life. You're looking for books that are... how many pages or hours? I don't want to put words in your mouth.

[00:31:53] LEE: Well, absolutely under 300 pages, but it would be okay if they were 250-ish, just something that I can read in a day or two in order to have the variety and little palate cleansers in between, that sort of thing. I don't want them to be much longer than that.

ANNE: Okay, so if what we're looking for is the pendulum to swing back the other direction from something like Team of Rivals or The Count of Monte Cristo, we do actually want to make it swing?

LEE: Yes.

ANNE: All right. Well, what else do you want me to know? Because there's so many different directions we can go in, and I'm happy to choose. I don't know if you've heard me jotting things down, crossing them out again.

LEE: Sure.

ANNE: I mean, I got ideas for you, but if there's anything else you want me to know for your wishlist?

[00:32:43] LEE: There is one thing that I would like you to know, because I've said that I can handle the pain, the frustration, the hard things of life, as long as there's progress and hope. But I have stumbled on a couple of kinds of things that I don't want and I can't. I apparently can't handle or don't want to handle. The best example, it's abuse. And it isn't even... it's not someone remembering or having the emotions or the trauma from having been abused. It's the descriptions of abuse. So I could not read The Names. I started it and after the first instance of humiliating, awful abuse, I couldn't go on.

ANNE: And The Names is intense, the Florence Knapp book.

[00:33:34] LEE: It's very intense. That is not for me. I couldn't even go very far in Demon Copperhead because it talked a lot about... I want to read that book. I think maybe at some point in some time in my life, I can go back to it because I know it's a good book. But abuse, that humiliating, it isn't... you know, murder I'm okay with, but abuse, not so much. If The Names, I mean, maybe somebody would tell me, "It's going to be helpful. It is. Just stick with it," well, maybe I could.

ANNE: It's not.

LEE: Well, that's what I thought.

ANNE: I do think it can be helpful tonally to know what world you're in. And when you begin The Names, you are in that world. And that world stays pretty steady.

LEE: Yes.

ANNE: Okay. Interactions between people, the inner life, how a person learns and grows. That's what we're looking for. Let's recap. You love Vera, or Faith by Gary Shteyngart, Patriot by Alexei Navalny, and The Count of Monte Cristo by Alexandre Dumas. Not for You was The Vaster Wild by Lauren Groff. You are looking for interactions between people. And you did not enjoy the descriptions of like the dead dogs lying in the road. Not for you.

[00:34:48] Lately, you've been enjoying Shakespeare: The Man who Pays the Rent by Judi Dench. And we both listened to the audio where Brendan O'Hea interviews her and also Beth Brower's The Unselected Journals of Emma M. Lyon. And we are looking for books that really deliver on that short, substantial... you enjoy books that have a kind of philosophy or principles about them, even if it's not stated. Let me think. I feel like we could start with what will be an exceptional pick for you or really, really terrible. And we are going to find out.

LEE: Okay.

ANNE: I'm thinking of the nonfiction book that is not a biography, Wedding Toast I'll Never Give by Ada Calhoun. Do you know her? Do you know this?

LEE: I think I've heard of that book, but I'm not familiar with it. No.

[00:35:46] ANNE: I think I might've read this at the recommendation, or at least I definitely talked about it with our team member, Ginger Horton. I know we both read this and enjoyed it. This is Ada Calhoun's nonfiction personal essay collection about... I mean, it's Wedding Toast I'll Never Give. What she means by that is, hey, I've got some real frank thoughts about relationships that I would never stand up and say at the beginning of someone's marriage, but like, do I think them and believe them with my whole heart? Yes. So not appropriate to say there. I'm going to put them in this book instead.

And this book actually came into being because of a Modern Love column she wrote for the New York Times that went viral. I do not know which essay in this collection that was. I'm sure I looked it up after reading, but I have no idea now. But Lee, I know that you have been married a long time, I believe.

LEE: Yes.

[00:36:38] ANNE: Okay. If somebody had handed me this book after I'd been married for one year, I would have been horrified. But that's not me. And I thought this was so funny and frank, like to give you a taste of how it hits differently when we... we'll have our 26th anniversary this year. So Ada Calhoun said that somebody told her once, "Oh, the first 20 years of marriage are the hardest." And she talks about how at the time she thought that was a joke, but it wasn't at all. Or I think she quotes... she might be quoting her mom once when she says, even good marriages sometimes involve flinging a remote control at the wall.

But this is about marriage, relationships, infidelity, divorce, and lots of personal growth. Ada Calhoun is not afraid to have a take here and argue her point. But also, she talks about ways she's revised her beliefs along the way.

[00:37:35] It might be worth mentioning, and you can read about this because she wrote an auto-fictional novel called Crush about this. But she did get divorced after writing this. But it's called Wedding Toast I'll Never Give. It's short. The audio itself is something like three and a half hours. So the page count of this smaller format work is going to put you in that 200 pages or less sweet spot. How is this sounding?

LEE: It sounds delightful. It's hard to know, you know, until you experience it. I agree with your initial assessment that it's probably something that would be you love it, or you really don't. But it sounds like fun.

ANNE: I think this would be a book that if you like to talk about your reading with others, there's a lot of good conversational fodder here. Whether you think, oh my gosh, she articulated that thing that I've always kind of believed, but haven't been able to put into words so well, or whether you think, that is wrong, and let me tell you why I think so. I think it could lead to really good conversations if you enjoy that.

LEE: Yes, very much.

[00:38:35] ANNE: Okay, that is Wedding Toast I'll Never Give by Ada Calhoun. Now, I want to say that... well, here, let's find out if you’ve read it yet. Have you had any Miriam Toews? I'm thinking of Fight Night specifically.

LEE: Nope.

ANNE: Not sad to hear it. She's a Canadian writer. And she's written fiction and nonfiction. This is a short novel about three generations of women in one family. This just came out a few years ago. The narrator is mostly a nine-year-old girl. Her name is Swiv. And when she is expelled from school for fighting, her family is upset. She starts spending her days with her frail, but spunky grandmother, who has an unconventional approach to homeschooling her nine-year-old granddaughter.

[00:39:30] So her grandmother says, "Okay, Swiv, you are to write letters about what's happening in your life and in our family to your father, who has been away since their mother got pregnant." And she's supposed to update him on her mother's third-trimester pregnancy. Swiv is like, "Well, okay, if I have to write these letters, then I want you to write some of her own." So her grandmother is also assigned writing about the family.

But the women in this family, I mean, the grandmother especially, feel larger than life. You mentioned in talking about the Shteyngart that kids are hard to write well. Swiv has such sass and character without feeling obnoxious, like sometimes adults write kids, which makes it, at least for this reader, easy to trust Toews as a writer.

[00:40:26] Swiv's mother is a pregnant actress. She is not as much in the picture as the other women in the family. She's mostly described coming and going, but she is a big personality, like all the women in this family have big personalities. There is a background of mental illness that the family is talking around that feels really scary to some people in the family. So there is definitely pain and sadness here and frustration. The father's gone. That's discussed as a big gap. And there's a bit of a question as to why for much of the story.

But there is definitely hope. The grandma makes at least one speech about joy and how important it is when times are hard. And this has a really lovely wrap-up at the end. Not all like pat tied in a bow, but it feels really fitting. It's darkly funny. I mean, there aren't a lot of books around like this one. How's this sounding?

[00:41:27] LEE: That sounds amazing. It strikes me as unique and perfect. So many topics it touches on that are near and dear to my heart. So it really sounds like it'll be perfect.

ANNE: I'm glad to hear it. And then finally, I wouldn't be surprised if you'd pick this up, but have you read Charlotte Wood's Stone Yard Devotional?

LEE: I'm aware of it. I've not read it.

ANNE: This one has a broodier tone where we talked about the Ada Calhoun nonfiction and Miriam Toews' Fight Night. Both of those feel like brighter and brasher. This one is definitely moodier. It's slim. It was shortlisted for the Booker. It's Australian. And it was described to me before I picked it up as a book that sounds quiet but reads as anything but.

[00:42:22] And you do get a lot of inner life musings in this story. But you also see this Sydney woman who has retreated to take up residence, not as an initiate, but she's living at a convent and lodging there far from home on the plains of New South Wales. She has taken a leave of absence from her life, from her work, from her family, from her marriage. And when she first comes to the convent, she's just literally lying on the floor for many hours a day thinking, like, how did I get here? So lots of inner life. But we do see her interact with people as well.

There's a series of three arrivals that happens in this story. When we were talking about books that have substance and layers and a structure that will hold when you push on it, that doesn't give everything up on the first reading, that you really could dig under and around and see what the author is up to, this structure of the visitations, I think, could be interesting to explore.

[00:43:30] But there are these visitations, and they really disrupt our narrator's peace and call her for different reasons to contemplate her past and future life. Now, one of these visitations is an overwhelming invasion of mice. And the descriptions of these were like... they're kind of icky. I'm thinking now of how you said you didn't like the descriptions of some of the things in nature found in The Vaster Wild. They're brief, but she wants you to know that overwhelming invasion of mice, she's being serious about that overwhelming part. And there's a couple of brief descriptions that give you a sense of the scope here. But also the mortal remains of one of the convent sisters who died far away for reasons that are gone into arrive back to rest at the convent. And that kicks up a lot of excitement and gossip among the nuns.

[00:44:24] And then there's a climate activist who comes to visit and our narrator knew her in a past life. And that relationship brings up all kinds of emotions for the Sydney woman who's taking refuge at the convent. There's not a clear plot, exactly. You don't get to the end and be like, "Oh, I see how that resolved." But if you like the sound of a book that's contemplative, about kind of blowing up your whole life, I think this is that book. How does that sound?

LEE: That sounds intriguing. It sounds fascinating. And I believe I will like it if I can get past the mice. My kids will tell you that I loathe mice. I would rather meet a snake than a mouse. However, since you've warned me about it, and you said they're brief, and they don't have to be in the room with me, I think I can handle. I'm willing to give it a go, because the rest of it sounds so brilliant. And that I would very much enjoy that I think I can face the mice.

[00:45:38] ANNE: I am glad to hear it. I don't believe it's necessary to linger on those descriptions. I think you'll be just fine without them.

LEE: Yes.

ANNE: You're not going to miss anything crucial.

LEE: When you said taking a leave of absence from her life, that was a really appealing thought. Because from time to time, I have that thought. It would be nice to just go take a leave of absence from life and contemplate who you want to be. But I don't really want to do it. So I'd love to read about it.

ANNE: Well, maybe this could be your vicarious one.

LEE: Yes.

ANNE: Okay. But let's give you a backup in case.

LEE: Okay.

ANNE: Have you read The Summer Book by Tove Jansson?

LEE: No.

ANNE: Do you know it at all?

LEE: No, not at all.

ANNE: 160 pages, 1972. Are we going to call that a modern classic?

LEE: Sure.

[00:46:36] ANNE: So Jansson is Finnish, I believe. This was originally written in Swedish. This is a book in translation. It reads almost as a series of just like really gentle short stories about a grandmother and her six-year-old granddaughter spending the summer together on a tiny island in the Gulf of Finland.

So this is also gently paced with just these beautiful, lush descriptions of the natural world. And there's heavy and light here, but both are handed with gentleness and just like this undercurrent of deep goodness and the relationship between the grandmother and granddaughter. And you said a couple of things, both about your reading and about your life, that made me think, maybe. How does that sound?

LEE: That sounds beautiful. I find that very appealing, not the least of which because I am spending a lot of time with my seven-year-old granddaughter.

[00:47:30] ANNE: I am glad to hear it. And then can I just share a few authors that tend to write short books?

LEE: I would love that.

ANNE: There's all kinds of healing fiction that's so popular in Japanese fiction and Korean fiction right now, like We'll Prescribe You a Cat. You know, I just said that I was going to share authors with you, but okay, there's a specific book. But also that whole genre, it often comes in right about the length you're looking for. But also Katie Kitamura, Kevin Wilson, Julie Otsuka, Graham Greene, Susie Boyt, Paulette Jiles, Joan Silber. You have a lot of authors who often write books that are like 220 to 240 pages.

And we didn't really talk directly, we talked a little bit before recording about how some of what goes into page count is like trickery and packaging and it's not as helpful as it might be. There's no objective, like, this is what a 200-page book feels like. It's not the word count. But they do tend to write books that I think are about the length you're looking for to counterbalance, say, Team of Rivals.

[00:48:42] Okay, Lee, of the books we talked about today, they were Wedding Toast I'll Never Give, the nonfiction by Ada Calhoun, Fight Night by Miriam Toews, Stone Yard Devotional by Charlotte Wood, and The Summer Book by Tove Jansson, of those books, what sounds good? What do you think you might read next?

LEE: They all sound like must-reads. And I'm delighted and amazed that you were able to mention so many books and authors that I'm really not very familiar with. But the one that rose to the top and just shone for me is Fight Night. So I'm going to read that one first, but I suspect I'll read them all.

ANNE: Well, I hope you really enjoy it. And I hope it is able to power you through the long books that you know you want to read this year. Lee, this has been a pleasure. Thank you so much for talking books with me today.

LEE: It's been delightful for me, and I really appreciate you having me. Looking forward to reading these.

ANNE: I can't wait to hear how it works out.

[00:49:46] Hey, readers, I hope you enjoyed my conversation with Lee, and I'd love to hear what you think she should read next. Find Lee on Instagram. We have that link plus the full list of titles we talked about today at whatshouldireadnextpodcast.com.

Join us over on Instagram at @WhatShouldIReadNext, where we post updates from each week's episode, plus peeks at our Patreon bonus episodes and more.

Make sure you're on our email list to keep up with upcoming events, and we have some big ones on the horizon, and more news from What Should I Read Next? HQ. Sign up at whatshouldireadnextpodcast.com/newsletter.

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[00:50:44] Thanks to the people who make this show happen. What Should I Read Next? is created each week by executive producer Will Bogel, Media production specialist Holly Wielkoszewski, social media manager and editor Leigh Kramer, community coordinator Brigid Misselhorn, community manager Shannan Malone, and our whole team at What Should I Read Next? and Modern Mrs. Darcy HQ. Plus the audio whizzes at Studio D Podcast Production.

Readers, that's it for this episode. Thanks so much for listening. And as Rainer Maria Rilke said, "Ah, how good it is to be among people who are reading." Happy reading, everyone.

[00:00:00] ANNE BOGEL: I don't know. I kind of feel like Ginger. You don't need me to butt in with any recommendations, but if I can't help myself, then maybe we'll tag-team you, Cheryl.

GINGER HORTON: We could probably give her another 52, like the Anne and Ginger list. Danger, danger.

CHERYL DRURY: I mean, honestly, I do feel like I could read another 52 equally valid books, and it would be awesome. Don't do that yet.

ANNE: Hey readers, I'm Anne Bogel, and this is What Should I Read Next?. Welcome to the show that's dedicated to answering the question that plagues every reader, what should I read next? We don't get bossy on this show. What we will do here is give you the information you need to choose your next read. Every week we'll talk all things books and reading and do a little literary matchmaking with one guest.

[00:00:53] While I love talking about books with readers of all sorts of tastes, sometimes I see a guest submission come across my screen and I think, "Oh, I know just the team member to have that conversation with." If you've been listening along for a while, you may remember when a guest needed book picks for a bucket list trip to Australia and Southeast Asia, and I pulled in my teammate, digital nomad Holly Wielkoszewski, to share her recommendations because she had just spent many months in those parts of the world.

Well, today we are back again with a hopefully dynamic team duo. I hope I'm allowed to say that, Ginger Horton, as she is coming on to help tackle one reader-specific reading dilemma. We're trying something new today, and we hope you enjoy it.

But first, I want to tell you readers, we've been having so much fun over in the Modern Mrs. Darcy Book Club lately. And it's funny that Ginger's on today because she is our community manager in that space. Last week, we hosted Cynthia D'Aprix Sweeney for a live author talk, and it was so fun to bring her back in a sense, though it was our first conversation with her. But she was a summer reading author in the very first year, back before even Ginger officially joined our team. And now here she is, official in 10 years and counting.

[00:02:10] Ginger has been instrumental in shaping how our community has grown. And you may not know, but she is also the mastermind behind adding a live unboxing event to our Summer Reading Guide. So that was Ginger's idea then.

And at first I said, "I'm sorry, you want to do what? Why? Who's going to come? Who wants to see that?" And now, she was right, and it is, I'm going to say, the most fun thing we do all year. If I'm allowed to have many favorites, like we allow our guests in What Should I Read Next?.

So it's hard to believe that this year marks our 10th anniversary of book club. But it has been so much fun along the way, and we've got great events queued up to celebrate this year. Plus, this is a wonderful time to join because it's summer reading season.

Ginger, do you want to share one thing we do in book club that you really enjoy?

GINGER: Oh, yeah. I have got to...

ANNE: Totally, I did not prepare her in advance for this.

GINGER: Always glad. I mean, it's probably like you, favorite is a category. So this is my favorite at the moment because we're going to talk about some nerdy fun today. I love the nerdy classes that we've had. Things like how to set your reading intentions, things like a great conversation about great books. I might mention a couple of others throughout this conversation that have impacted my own reading life. But I love to get nerdy with classes.

[00:03:22] ANNE: Ooh, I'm glad to hear it. Okay, I'm going to go for a tried-and-true favorite: the Reading This Week Forum. Every Sunday, we kick it off. And by we, I mean one of our members had the idea, and now it's a tradition. But every week whoever wants to, shares what they've been reading that week. And y'all, our members are smart and fun and funny and well-read. And their little one sentence to a paragraph or two commentary about what they're reading could keep me in books until the end of time. But they also give me the information I need to decide what I'm going to choose to read next. For more from Ginger and more book club fun, join us at modernmrsdarcy.com/club.

Readers, today's guest recently completed a classics reading project, and now she really wants to keep up that momentum while also bringing more non-classics back into her reading life. This sounded so fun, so intriguing. And I couldn't help but notice that both Cheryl Drury's tastes and her recent focus on the classics make me think of my friend and teammate, Ginger Horton.

[00:04:36] As we mentioned above, Ginger is our Modern Mrs. Darcy Book Club community manager. And while she and I do have a nice wide space in our overlapping Venn diagram, Ginger has recently been immersed in the classics due to her current enrollment in a Great Books graduate study program. So for Ginger, it's not all classics all the time, just mostly classics most of the time these days. That's why Ginger seems like exactly the right reader to bring along for this conversation with Cheryl.

Cheryl hails from Charleston, South Carolina. And while she's always been a reader, she told us that she'd never really dabbled much in classics or great books until 18 months ago, when she embarked on a challenge to read through a year-long list of more than 100 influential books, starting with Plato and finishing with David Foster Wallace. The project energized Cheryl's reading life, but now she's not quite sure where to go in her approach to reading.

[00:05:31] Cheryl shares many reading similarities with Ginger, and I cannot wait to hear Ginger's ideas and offer my own for Cheryl's reading quest today. We will talk about how Cheryl may retain some of the structure from her classics project because that served her well, but also where she can have more flexibility to follow where her reading whimsy takes her. Plus, we'll offer some title ideas that hopefully will feel like just the right bridge between what Cheryl's been reading lately and what she'd love more of in the months ahead. Let's get to it.

Ginger and Cheryl, welcome to the show.

GINGER: Well, I am so excited to be here in this capacity. I am excited and nervous, and Anne, I am impressed that you do this week after week because while I am thrilled to talk books at any time, it's daunting, I think, not to recommend three books, but to limit yourself to recommending three books.

ANNE: Well, you may notice our super secret spreadsheet available to our patrons. It has a lot of slashes in it where there's three books in the spot on the spreadsheet where one book was designed to go, and then there's three of those columns for recommendations for each episode. It's a lot. And I still get nervous every time because what if I can't think of the books? I'll remember tomorrow when I'm walking the dog, and then I'll email the guests. That's what happens. Cheryl, we're glad you're here.

[00:06:48] CHERYL: Thank you so much. It's really fun. And Ginger, I'm so glad to hear you're nervous because I am too, so that's great.

ANNE: What I like to tell all our guests is if we could work this out across time, space, and just logistics of talking and drinking coffee on mic at the same time, I wish we could just do this at my local coffee shop. We'd just be three readers around the table talking books. We would not be nervous a bit, except maybe when we first walked in the door and had to wave and go, "Hi, it's me. Are you Anne?" That would be the only awkward part, and then we'd just have a wonderful conversation.

GINGER: Well, if we're making requests, as much as I love coffee in Louisville, can we meet in Charleston, Cheryl? Because that is one of my favorite cities. My husband and I lived there for a few years, and I have a really fond place in my heart for Charleston.

CHERYL: Well, you should. It's awesome here. We love it.

GINGER: Lots of good bookstores, too.

CHERYL: Yes.

[00:07:43] ANNE: Well, Cheryl, tell us more. We have already learned that Charleston is near and dear to your heart, and we really want to give our readers a glimpse of what the life of our guest is like.

CHERYL: Well, I live in Charleston. We moved here just a few years ago, and so we are still falling in love with the city. My husband and I live here together. There's all the restaurants and the beautiful parks and beaches and history. So that's a lot of what we do while we live here.

Of course, I read. I needlepoint, learning to play mahjong, like half the country right now, I think. And then we travel a lot. We have four young adult children, and they're scattered everywhere from here to Japan. No one ever tells you how busy young adult children keep you. Thankfully, it's very fun. And then we own a large sailboat that we spend time on. Between our kids and our sailboat, we are also traveling a lot. So that's pretty much my life.

[00:08:41] ANNE: That sounds lovely. Cheryl, tell us about your reading life.

CHERYL: I have always thought of myself as a reader, and I think the other people in my family did, too. When my grandmother needlepointed a Christmas stocking for me, she put a little bookworm on my stocking. So I've always been a reader, but through high school and college, I got a technical education. I have an engineering degree, and I was very math-oriented. I like to read, but my English class experiences weren't great. I didn't fall in love with any books when I was in school, even though I like to read. And then when I went to college, I hope y'all are sitting down, I got through Georgia Tech without taking an English class. It's just crazy.

So, anyway, reading when I started working was kind of an escape from the numbers and an escape from daily work life. And then as my kids were born, I became a stay-at-home mom, and I kept reading, and it was just another way to be in a different world for a little bit, and still that escape and an ability to maybe learn something about somewhere else.

[00:09:50] But I didn't have a background in great books. There were a couple of times that I tried, and I always felt like I wasn't quite getting it. In particular, I read The Divine Comedy and loved it before we went on a trip to Italy. I really loved it, but I had this feeling that I was missing something when I came to it because I didn't know all of these backstories that are in it. And it just kind of sat there.

Then I had also read A Gentleman in Moscow, and it sent me down. I was reading Tolstoy and Dostoevsky and really, really enjoyed them, but that little Russian unit stopped. And I really didn't quite know how to satisfy that itch of learning great books until I came across a reading list by a man named Ted Gioia. I've been reading his work for a while, and he offered a year-long immersive humanities course that started in Plato, and I thought, "You know what? This is my chance to maybe get a hold of all of these things and try to get a framework for a big picture." And so I started reading it, and that's been my reading life for the last 52 weeks, actually.

[00:11:05] ANNE: I love the metaphor you shared in your submission about beginning to read the classics. It might just have been unique to the Russians, but do you remember what it was that you could share with us?

CHERYL: Yes. This is exactly how I felt, even with The Divine Comedy. When I was reading the Russians and anything that was supposedly a great book, I felt like I was coming into a movie about a half hour late. I could understand where the plot started from where I got there, but I felt like I was missing something. And when I came across Ted's list, it was like I'd found the rewind button, and all of a sudden, I was able to maybe go back to the beginning with Plato and start at the beginning and kind of get a big picture idea of what was really going on. And that, in fact, did happen. I'm really grateful.

[00:11:58] ANNE: Well, you may have just begun to answer the question that I was formulating, which was, I think, a lot of readers would have been like, "Guess this isn't for me," or "that ship passed me by." I'm wondering what ignited that streak of perseverance. Or maybe you just found the list and saw the solution to the problem you hadn't been able to articulate.

CHERYL: Well, it was a little bit of that, but I think I knew I... well, one of my sons was very influential. He's a classics major from UChicago, master's from UChicago, and a philosophy undergrad, a philosophy and math. So great combo. And he would tell me about the books he was reading and sometimes pass them on to me. But I was like, "This is too much. I cannot understand this." And I finally realized these books have endured for a long time because somebody can read them. Why not me? And when I found the list, Ted had put these in an order that seemed approachable and I could handle it.

[00:12:57] ANNE: Cheryl, I'm so curious to hear... Now, I imagine that everything you learned and all your takeaways could fill many books or a whole podcast series of your own. But I'm wondering just the nugget or two you find yourself reaching for most when people go, "Wait, you did what?" Was this about your Great Books project?

CHERYL: It's a great privilege to get to know people from across thousands of years who invite you into their lives. It's an enormous privilege. And who am I to say that I'm not going to take full advantage of that? I've gotten to know a man who watched the Greek soldiers defend their country against Persia. And I've gotten to know a woman who had a wry eye for couples dynamics in England. And it's Jane Austen. And I've gotten to know a man who was a slave who held on to His humanity while He was a slave, so much so that when He escaped, He was able to explain what slavery does not just to this enslaved person but to the people doing the enslaving. These things are amazing and they're all just sitting there and I can take advantage of that. That's huge. That's huge.

[00:14:25] You know, I can tell you another thing I learned. I learned patience. Like with myself, when I don't understand something, I know how to go back and I can figure it out. I can slow down or I can find somebody to explain it to me. And I learned patience with the author because I quit wanting the author to tell me the story I wanted to hear, and I was able to let the author tell me the story they want to tell, at their pace.

I had gotten into a bad habit of just wanting to read for plot and always what happens, what happens. And I realized that I was missing out on some beautiful characters and some beautiful people if I would just sit and let the story unfold the way the author wanted to tell it. So I became more patient.

GINGER: I think about what one of our book club authors said in the title of his book, that by reading the classics we are able to break bread with the dead. And I don't think that was unique to him. I think he was quoting a classical writer whose name has escaped me. But I think that's amazing that we can converse not just with the people that we know and not just with the people that are writing books in our time, but with all of humanity. It's one of the things that I love about reading classics.

[00:15:43] CHERYL: You know, it's one of those things you know in your head but if you experience it over and over again, like I did every time I'd go back and read Plato or I read the Odyssey, and you meet these people where they are and get to know them just over and over again it becomes very clear what you're doing. It's amazing. What a gift!

GINGER: One of the things that always strikes me when I read a classic is this can sound very heady, and it is beautiful. I love it. I think we're the same in that way Cheryl. But one of the things that always strikes me is people are people, humans are humans. I thrill when there is this little snippet of human nature that I think, "Oh, yeah I saw that last week with the guy on the bus beside me on TikTok here in my modern city.

[00:16:29] People are the same throughout history and so it's always so fun to discover how human nature changes but how much it stays the same. And in that way they are so accessible.

CHERYL: I totally agree with you. It's been amazing to meet these people and yet they could be sitting, like you said, beside me on the bus. People just don't change. And it's so fun to get to understand that.

I don't mean to sound so heady because this is actually really about my heart, but these things happen because you just decide to pick up something that maybe is a little bit out of your wheelhouse. It's amazing what it can do to your heart. Take it out and stomp it all over.

GINGER: At times.

CHERYL: Yeah.

ANNE: Cheryl, in hearing what your project has meant to you, we know that the project is over. The reading project never ends, but it sounds like you went from being on a road where you could see the stops ahead of you very clearly and then the road ended. Would you speak to us from that moment? I mean, I imagine there's a lot of freedom, but also other emotions.

[00:17:43] CHERYL: Well for a while I thought that the road ended. In my mind, it was like coming to a door. But what I realized was that this reading project was just bringing me to the door so I could open it and go through. So I don't think of this as a road that's ended. I'm actually standing at an intersection with 45 different ways I could go. And maybe I'll circle back and get another one later but right now I'm kind of sitting pondering, which one of these do I go down next?

And I'm very excited about that. It's opening this door and I get to step through and I have this the only way I can think of it. I have this scaffolding of what I worked so hard to learn and now, as I walk through the door, I'm bringing all that with me. And I get to hang the next things if I know where to put them.

[00:18:38] And they're not just going to sit randomly. I've got places where I can like, "Oh, this guy that I'm meeting in this book, I know what that's like. And this guy also had that go on." I'll be able to start connecting things better, but boy, I was really sad when I got to about week 50 because I thought, "What's going to happen? What's going to happen?" And when I finished week 52, that's when I realized it was a door, not a dead end. And I'm super excited about that.

ANNE: Oh, the road continues.

CHERYL: Yeah.

ANNE: Now you have multiple routes to an indeterminate destination.

CHERYL: Yes.

ANNE: Although maybe you envision the destination. I don't know. How do you envision where you stand?

CHERYL: I'm sorry, I'm not trying to be nerdy, but there's the last lines of C.S. Lewis' The Last Battle.

ANNE: It's a book podcast.

CHERYL: Yeah, it is, isn't it? C.S. Lewis' The Last Battle, the last of Narnia series, and He talked about how they had thought that everything that had happened was only the preparation. And as they've stood at the edge, they were at the true Narnia, ready to have the true adventures, and it was only just beginning. And that's how I feel.

[00:19:51] ANNE: I love it.

CHERYL: All right.

ANNE: How about we hear the books you brought to the show, and we hear about what kind of adventures you'll be embarking on next? And then Ginger and I... I don't know. I kind of feel like, Ginger, you don't need me to butt in with any recommendations, but if I can't help myself, then maybe we'll tag-team you, Cheryl. But-

GINGER: We could probably give her another 52, like the Anne and Ginger list. Danger, danger.

CHERYL: I mean, honestly, I do feel like I could read another 52 equally valid books, and it would be awesome. So don't do that yet.

GINGER: No, we'll try to refrain from a few fewer than that.

CHERYL: Yeah, okay.

ANNE: But I propose we start with your books.

CHERYL: Okay.

ANNE: Are you on board?

CHERYL: I'm on board.

ANNE: Okay. Oh, I didn't mean to use a sailing metaphor for you.

CHERYL: No, it's totally fine.

ANNE: It doesn't feel inappropriate. Cheryl, you do know how this works. You're going to tell me three books you love, one that you don't, and what you've been reading lately, and then we will suss out where you'd like to head next. How did you choose these today?

[00:20:55] CHERYL: One is a long-time favorite and I've already said it. The other two were books that really stuck with me that I unexpectedly loved, loved, loved during this project. So, the first one is Don Quixote, which was a total surprise to me. I had never read it before. It's written in the 1600s.

My only knowledge of Don Quixote until I had read this book: there's a Picasso pen and ink drawing, and it's very scribbly. And I know that everybody has seen it, and it's Don Quixote on his donkey with Sancho Panza with him. And it's just like a scribble, and it's black and white. And I thought, "Ooh, it's going to be a yucky book and I'm not going to like it." And I open it up and it is delightful. It's so funny. Cervantes is making fun of his main character, but he's doing it gently. And there's these fun adventures. Cervantes has so much to say about reading in that book. It's hilarious.

[00:22:00] At one point, some of Don Quixote's neighbors get worried about him and they think he's having delusions. And so they decide his problem is too many books, so they go over and burn some of his books to help him out. It's just a charming, charming book. And I didn't expect that. I didn't expect how much Cervantes had to say about people in that book at all. The whole thing was unexpected and absolutely fun.

ANNE: I'm happy to hear it.

GINGER: What I was trying not to tell Cheryl before we started recording is that I have never been able to make it through Don Quixote. My husband loves this book. We tried to have a spouse book club at one point, years and years ago. And I was hoping, when I saw this was the first book you loved, that you would somehow be able to talk me into giving it another try.

Here is my theory on why it didn't work for me the last time because to hear you talk about how fun it is, I think I was approaching this like a serious work of literature. Do you hear the capitalization in my voice there? And I don't know that I was giving it its due. Maybe I'm a better reader now. Maybe coming to it at a different place would inspire me to give it a try. But I loved hearing you talk about it. So, maybe this is my urge to go for it again.

[00:23:13] CHERYL: I think you should, because I came at this book midway through the project. And so, I was a better reader at spotting funny things. But there's plenty of humor in the reading list that I did. So I was better at spotting the funny parts and knowing when he's kind of tongue-in-cheek. I was totally ready for it on this book. So, I think you should try it again.

GINGER: I'm excited to hear that.

ANNE: Oh, I can't wait to hear how this works out.

CHERYL: Me too.

ANNE: Cheryl, what's the second book you love?

CHERYL: The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn. This one was a total shocker for me. It was another book that we were only supposed to read the first couple of chapters as part of the reading project, and I loved it so much that I read the whole thing. I was supposed to read it in high school, and the only memory of it from high school for me is... do y'all know what CliffsNotes were?

ANNE: Oh, yeah.

[00:24:06] CHERYL: Okay. My only memory of this book is using the CliffsNotes in high school. And so it was a total shock, again, that I loved this book so much. I loved Huck's honesty. I think part of it for me is now I have raised two boys, and I opened this book, and in chapter one I saw a kid I know. And I just wanted every good thing for him.

So, falling in love with that character was a surprise, but then also his honesty and letting us see how he grows, letting us see how he changes, especially in regard to his opinion of his friend Jim, who becomes his friend through the course of the story. And just Huck's honesty and his forthrightness and everything that he thinks, it's so genuine. I just loved it.

[00:25:00] GINGER: I'm always here for a coming-of-age novel and I don't know that there is a better hallmark. Again, just with the humor. Mark Twain can really move you clearly, and also he's so funny. And yeah, I think we do sometimes a disservice to our young people to hand them these great books, and hopefully they can form a lot of young minds and hearts. But I also wonder if so many of us would be served better by being handed that book after you've met your first favorite six-year-old, or you have fallen in love the first time for yourself. I think about that a lot. I always tease that I need to make a classics list and then say what age you should really read that classic book.

CHERYL: I totally agree. I think it was Winston Churchill who said that it's a pity to come to a great book too early in life. I think about that now that I'm my age. And sometimes I feel like I'm coming too late to them, but at least I came to them.

[00:25:59] GINGER: Well, here's a reminder, and I don't think this will be the last time I talk about this, but to reread those books, because sometimes they'll say one thing to you at 15 and something entirely different at 45.

CHERYL: Totally agree on that. Yes. And there are a lot of books that stand up really well to rereading.

ANNE: Cheryl, what's the third book you love?

CHERYL: Well, it's the book I already mentioned, A Gentleman in Moscow. This is probably my all-time favorite book. If there is a person in fiction that I could have dinner with, it would be the Count. I think that Amor Towles performed a miracle in creating this adventure story in the four walls of the Metropole Hotel. I love everything about it. I love the side characters. I love the way he told the story. I love the Count. I love the foreignness of the setting. Gosh, I've probably read that book five or six times. Talk about rereading. And it's up to the point where I can just pull it open and listen or read anywhere. I have it on audio as well, so I can just pop it open and start reading and kind of know where I am. That book always stands up to rereading.

[00:27:10] And the other part of it that I love and I will be forever grateful for is that it did send me to read some other great books. I read War and Peace because of it. And wow, I thought that was going to be absolutely unreadable. And it's this series of great love stories and this war story. And I had no idea. And then it sent me to read a lot of history. I'm so grateful for that part. But wow, what a story.

ANNE: What brought you to this book?

CHERYL: You, Anne. What Should I Read Next?. I think it was either this or the Modern Mrs. Darcy blog. So, yeah, I found out about that book from you. And then I've read all of his other books now. So, love them.

ANNE: It was the first book we read together in Modern Mrs. Darcy Book Club post the initial, "Hey, let's try this thing," Summer Reading Club in September 2016.

[00:28:06] GINGER: Special place in my heart, too. And I have also read it more than once. And now you're making me want to read it again. It's a great character. Yeah, I truly think this might be one that... you mentioned two other books that have stood the test of time. I genuinely think people might be reading this 100 years, 200 years, hundreds of years hence.

CHERYL: I agree, because it offers you such a good window into a world that is gone, hopefully, thankfully. But the characters in there are so memorable. Actually, every time I think of the book, I also think of Misha, his friend. He gives one of the most impassioned speeches in the whole book. I can tear up even thinking about it. Obviously, it doesn't take a lot to tear me up.

GINGER: Good books can do that.

CHERYL: Yes.

ANNE: Cheryl, did you read this one before or after your deepened adventures with the Russian novelists?

CHERYL: Oh, no. This is what set off my adventures with the Russians. This was the start. I called it my Russian rabbit hole.

[00:29:07] ANNE: Gentlemen to the Russians to the 52 books.

CHERYL: Yeah.

ANNE: Whoa. Wow.

GINGER: I might have a tiny literary crush on Amor Towles. I don't mind telling the two of you.

CHERYL: He came to Charleston last year. He was awesome.

GINGER: Yes. His mind is so, so fine and so clever.

ANNE: He came to Louisville too. He was great.

GINGER: You guys, you're killing me.

CHERYL: I think what's interesting is he writes these really great novels that are not alike.

GINGER: That's right.

CHERYL: Like The Lincoln Highway, oh.

GINGER: See, I'm glad-

CHERYL: That's a great book.

GINGER: I'm making notes here because I had on my list to make sure that you had read both that and his short stories. So, luckily, you're whittling down my massive list for me. So good.

CHERYL: I think The Lincoln Highway made my best book of 2024. I'm trying to keep a record of what were the best books, but I haven't been doing that very long.

[00:30:02] ANNE: Cheryl, perhaps a different headspace now, but tell us about a book that was not right for you. And I'd love to hear your theories as to why it wasn't a fit, not aligned with your taste, poor timing, not what you thought you were getting into. What did you choose?

CHERYL: I read Dead Wake by Erik Larson. I thought it might be for me because I think I had read... didn't he write The Devil in the White City? And I liked it. So Dead Wake is about the sinking of the Lusitania. It's a very sad story. It doesn't need heightened suspense to make it sadder because it's already a huge tragedy.

And what he did when he wrote this book is he had you follow closely along with several sets of characters. And then partway through the book, half of them die. I felt so emotionally manipulated by that. I never do this. I threw the book across the room. I know the room I was in. I was next to a fireplace. I thought I might throw it in the fireplace. I was so mad that he would do this and make me abuse my feelings like that. That was not respectful.

[00:31:18] I just thought it was manipulative. And that, on his part, I was like, I'm done. I don't like sad endings to begin with, but sad endings that are justified. But I felt like this... he had heightened the emotional part of it in order to elicit a feeling from me that I thought that was... that was too much of an ask. He had no respect for the reader on that book at least. Wow, I really came down, didn't I? I don't love a sad ending, but I really don't like to be made to fall in love with a character and then kill them off in a really manipulative way.

ANNE: Duly noted.

GINGER: Do you read much nonfiction? Because I noticed the three books you love happen to be novels. So what's your relationship with nonfiction?

CHERYL: I like nonfiction. I'm actually reading a history right now. Love it. Some of my favorite books from the year-long project were histories. I love memoir. Yeah, I have no problem with nonfiction. I've read a lot of narrative nonfiction and enjoyed it. This just set me off for a very specific reason. And I was like, "Okay, well, I don't know that I can know that when I'm starting, but I can sure be on guard for it."

[00:32:31] GINGER: There you go. Okay, good to know.

ANNE: Cheryl, what have you been reading lately?

CHERYL: A couple of books that were at the tail end of my project. One of the really interesting ones to me was a writer named Susan Sontag. She wrote in like the 70s. She wrote a book called On Photography. Being a mom, I always had the camera in my hand. And I was a horse show mom, and so I got actually very good at taking pictures. And I took a lot of pictures. I was quite good at it.

So I had a relationship in my head with photography, but then here comes this woman about how photography and memory and reality aren't all the same thing. And what does that do to how we think about all of them? It was a really fun thing. I had never thought about it before. And now I think that anybody who walks around with a camera in their pocket, which is basically everyone, should read her thoughts about how photographs affect your memory. I was crazy.

[00:33:32] I also just finished Theo of Golden, which was very high on my list that so many people had been reading while I was in the midst of my project. So I didn't have time to read it. So I've just finished it. One of the most fun parts of that is that unexpectedly, so many of my friends are also reading that. And it's been really fun to be part of a communal experience.

I did enjoy a lot of the book. That part's been so fun to share in that enjoyment with my friends without even planning it. It wasn't like we were reading it for a book club. We were just reading it.

GINGER: Oh, I had three friends one day text me to see if I had read this at one point, maybe months back. But it was definitely in the zeitgeist. So I'm glad you got to be a part of that.

CHERYL: Oh my gosh. I hadn't been a part of anything like that for at least a year because I'd been doing my own thing over here. And so that was really, really fun.

[00:34:28] Then one of the last books I've just finished is Gabriel García Márquez's One Hundred Years of Solitude. It was another one that we had to read a couple of chapters for in the project. I love magical realism. I love it. Apparently, I didn't know this, this book kind of was one of the early ones in the 20th century that was magical realism. So the project introduced me to it.

I had tried to read this book maybe 15 or 15 years ago or so and I couldn't do it. And I think it was that patience problem that I had with not letting an author tell me his story. And now I had developed patience. And this book is so dreamlike and a little wacky. And I was willing to let it be those things this time instead of being like, "Well, this doesn't make sense. That's crazy." Which I know you have to also suspend your disbelief for magical realism. But I didn't get impatient with like, you know, there's like 20 characters, and there's four first names in the book. And it's really funny. So there's like four Aurelianos. It's just you have to keep people straight. But I kind of put all that aside and just enjoyed the book. And I really did love it.

[00:35:44] GINGER: If you can read the Russians, I think you can handle Gabriel García Márquez.

CHERYL: Yeah. I've just finished reading those. I'm actually currently reading a history right now because I'm getting ready to go to England in a couple months. I'm doing a little vacation reading, pre-vacation reading.

ANNE: That sounds lovely. Cheryl, thank you for telling us about your books. As we move into putting books on your radar to potentially read next, what are you looking for in your reading life right now?

CHERYL: I have never done what I just did, this intense project. I loved it. And I loved growing as a reader, but it's a lot. And so I'm trying to figure out a way to grow and yet still have time to do fun books. I mean, I like a spy novel for vacation or, you know, Theo of Golden. It was fun to have time to read those.

[00:36:45] I'm still wanting to do these projects oriented around different things and read intentionally. I think that's the way I want to think of it. Read intentionally, but I also need to build some fun books in. So I'm trying to figure out a way to have that combination. Like I said, we're going to Northern England this summer, and so I've kind of got a little project already started for myself, but I don't have a fun English book in there. Not even Jane Austen. And so that kind of thing. I'm trying to figure out how to plug some more modern things in and just allow some time. I'm really not a grind, but I feel like I am sometimes [inaudible 00:37:26].

ANNE: Has your project changed the idea of what kinds of books are entertaining to you?

CHERYL: A million percent.

ANNE: Would you say more about that?

CHERYL: Yes. For one thing, I read across genres now. I can read a play really easily now. I've read a lot of Greek drama and I loved it. I loved Shakespeare. It changed me for reading, you know, different kinds of literature. Like I said, I have a patience to read Gabriel García Márquez. His book is so dreamlike, and yet, you know, I also like to read things that are more plot-driven.

[00:38:01] I do find myself really lingering on characters. I find that I fall in love with characters so much now. I did a little bit before, obviously I was in love with the Count. Don't tell my husband. And I read poetry now. Who am I? Who reads...? I read poetry. That's crazy. I'm just willing to pick up and try a lot more things now. I hope that makes sense. I like narrative nonfiction a lot, but I could read a history instead of reading narrative nonfiction now equally happily.

ANNE: Has your project changed your idea of what kinds of lighter books appeal to you?

CHERYL: I'm afraid so. I think it might've made me pickier.

ANNE: I'm just looking for information. I mean, you can feel about it however you want, but your answer is not going to disappoint us.

GINGER: No.

ANNE: Would you say more about that?

[00:38:50] CHERYL: I've encountered some great stories and some great storytellers in the past year. And so my patience with less good storytellers is not... That might be the one place I'm less patient, is if a story isn't being told as well. And I'm not as happy with it.

I had a friend who said, "Oh, you should read this Colleen Hoover novel. A bunch of friends are reading it." And I thought, "Okay, oh, that is not for me." It's too much in a lot of ways. And it's also just not that interesting. On the other hand, I like Liane Moriarty a lot. And What Alice Forgot is still one of my favorite books because the premise is so fun. And I think she executed it really well.

So a lot of popular fiction is frustrating to me. This is the other thing that I noticed about myself this year is that I have a great regard for a person as an individual. I don't like things to be reduced to stereotypes at all. And I didn't realize I felt that strongly about it until this project, where I was reading about individuals. And reading across time, especially reading before about the 1700s, I realized how deeply I love that view of a person as an individual and not as part of a group. I really don't want to read things that have agendas. And it feels like sometimes it's easy to fall into that. And I'm sure people have reasons for writing it, it's just that I don't want to read that.

[00:40:29] GINGER: One thing that I struggle with, with my love of classics and an increasing desire to read the best, and that could be across any genre. I don't read a lot of, say, fantasy. It's just not my go-to comfort genre. But I want to read the two or three best ones that my fantasy-loving friends have read throughout the year, or a romance novel, or some of the genres that just don't happen to be in my personal comfort zone.

And so I don't always know how to balance that, that I keep standards without snobbery. It's a really hard thing that you do encounter when you are trying to go after the best. But yet you don't want to, as I think our team member Leigh always reminds us, don't yuck someone else's yum. It's just not my yum.

CHERYL: No, I'm not trying to. It's not for me. I like how you said that. I don't want to be a snob. I want to read the best. Life is short. You only get so much time to read so many books. And so I want to read the really good ones.

GINGER: I think you put that beautifully.

[00:41:34] ANNE: I did notice you say twice, regarding Dead Wake, and then we were chatting before we hit record, that how a story is told and how the author unspools the information and how it's structured, like these things really matter to you.

CHERYL: They do.

ANNE: It's not just like, tell me a good story to take me away. There's more than that that you're looking for, which is true for many readers.

CHERYL: Yeah. I mean, I think that that's true. And that's been true for a long time, though. I read Dead Wake when it first came out. And I also read World War Z, which is fiction, right? But it's written as a memoir, and so you know the guy writing it survives because he's writing it. And so knowing that, I could comfortably read the whole book without being worried the whole time that he was going to die because he didn't, because he was writing.

[00:42:31] I actually really, really loved World War Z. I thought it was so fun. And it didn't bother me at all being written as a memoir. I think if it had been written like spooling it out as a story, I couldn't have read it because I would have been worried the whole time that he would have died. I don't want my heartstrings to be plucked unnecessarily.

ANNE: I'm thinking of how when Will and I both read in the same season Into Thin Air by Jon Krakauer. Have you read that?

CHERYL: Oh, yeah.

ANNE: Okay. I was just thinking that'd be an amazing adventure story for your list but-

CHERYL: I read it on an airplane. It was a really long airplane ride and it was freezing cold on the airplane because sometimes they can be cold. I'm reading this book about a cold adventure and it's so cold. I will never forget that experience.

ANNE: Well, the book is dedicated to those who died on the mountain that season. And I was constantly flipping back and forth to the dedication because I wanted to know the fates of the people I was reading about. Will didn't do it that way.

[00:43:36] CHERYL: I'm pretty sure I noticed that too because I have a good memory of reading that book. I enjoyed the experience of it. Now that you say that, that would be part of why I didn't mind it because I knew people were going to die, but it was okay.

ANNE: Okay. We will keep all this in mind. So we're looking for lighter, but still really well-written, some things that aren't terribly challenging that you can still get lost in, but you have so much available to you. You want books that you'll feel really good about having chosen to spend your time with.

CHERYL: Yes. The other part of it is I'm happy to read classic adjacent or the fan fiction, kind of like A Thousand Acres was King Lear, which I loved A Thousand Acres, and The Brothers K was crazy good. I would absolutely be happy to try the, like if it's really well-written, some of the takeoffs on Shakespeare or Dickens or any of these classic type books.

[00:44:48] ANNE: Okay. So, Cheryl, you loved Don Quixote by Miguel de Cervantes, The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn by Mark Twain and A Gentleman in Moscow by Amor Towles. Not for you was Dead Wake by Erik Larson. And lately you've read On Photography by Susan Sontag, Theo of Golden by Allen Levi and One Hundred Years of Solitude by Gabriel García Márquez. And you're looking for something different after your great books here.

Ginger Horton, what are you thinking?

GINGER: I'm so excited to do the honors. My mind is going in a million directions, but I think I have the three for you. I'm going to start off and give you the two that I'm more sure of. And then I'm going to give you a little choose-your-own-adventure.

But the way I structured this in my mind... I love your metaphors about going down a road. The way that my mind usually thinks about books that add to each other in conversation are hooks. So I remember the very first time in this Great Books program that I'm in that I came across a reference in another writer's work to "clear and distinct," which is such a Descartes or a Cartesian as I've learned phrase that I thought, "He's explicitly referencing so and so."

[00:46:10] I always think that now I can put that pot on that hook. Then I can fill that pot with more stuff. So that's the way I'm thinking of it. So each one of these will be a hook that you can then hang a lot of other things from. And so any of these books could become a next mini project for you. So that's what I am endeavoring to do for you today. But all of them also stand completely on their own. You could read it as a one-time thing, get excited about something else and leave it on the shelf.

But the first one I have to recommend is kind of a cheat. True to my maximalist tendencies, the book that I'm thinking of actually has the word or the number 1,000 in it. And it is 1,000 Books to Read Before You Die by James Mustich, who has indeed been on the What Should I Read Next? podcast. Is this one you're familiar with, Cheryl?

CHERYL: Yes.

GINGER: Okay, what's your experience with that? Have you read it? Is it sitting on your coffee table?

CHERYL: No, I haven't read it. I thought, "1,000 books, dude, I need to just start one."

GINGER: Yes.

[00:47:06] CHERYL: It was a little overwhelming. I've tried to like... but yeah, no, I think at this point, I'm more confident at something like this.

GINGER: Well, here's why I actually really like this for you. It's got a couple things going for it. Number one, you could absolutely sit it on your coffee table and read one entry or three entries at a time, say over the course of a year, which is exactly what I did. I read, you know, however many pages. I divided it out, read it over the course of the year, highlighted the ones that sounded good to me, and then started in on reading some of those. And I'm still in that process. And I think I will be for the rest of my life before I die. That's his only qualification there.

But what else I really love about it is listening to you talk about books. I think you're fantastic at something around book club that we call pithy book talk. And I think James is also so good at pithy book talk. He is such a good judge of literature himself, that you really trust his taste. If a book sounds good, it probably is good.

[00:48:04] I also think that just reading about books, being exposed to books, I won't get to all 1,000 of these. And you still feel like you have had a little bit of an exposure with this book. And so it is a little bit of a masterclass in what is in culture.

Something else I really like about this is not just the way he talks about books and the options for you, of course, but also that he has excellent taste that spans old, old classics, and very modern, and a lot in between. So he was telling me about books that probably are out of print, they might be on the shelf of my dad or my grandparents, maybe they were really popular in 1967. And there's just maybe less of a chance that I would have come across that because I would have been not alive yet or quite small. So he has this sort of middle ground that I find really refreshing. And they are some of the favorite books that I would have never come across.

[00:48:57] I think about Oranges by John McPhee has been one of my favorite reading experiences. I discovered that through 1,000 Books to Read Before You Die. I think this could be not only just a really fun read for you. It doesn't have to be done in one sitting. But tell me what you think about that.

CHERYL: Actually, I really love it. I think I love it now. I think that I would have felt overwhelmed a year ago. But now that I have a better confidence in my own reading, and a better background, I think that I'm actually very interested in that now. And it's fun to read what other people think about the books that you like, or don't like. I didn't like every book I read this year.

GINGER: Of course. Great. Well, and I wouldn't recommend this just to anyone, because it's not the kind of book that most people would want to sit and read cover to cover. But I think for you, it might really be something. One thing I meant to ask you before we started is, are you the kind of person that reads one book at a time or do you have a few in process?

[00:49:52] CHERYL: Really depends on what the books are. But this one sounds like I could do it a little bit at a time while I'm reading other things because it's not like a narrative arc.

GINGER: Yes, exactly. I think that is one key part. If this is going to bog you down, then maybe go along to one of the others on my list.

CHERYL: No, I think that sounds really cool.

ANNE: Cheryl, I'm glad you're not overwhelmed by the 1,000 books. But I also think you may enjoy browsing his index in the back, not in one sitting. It's too much for most readers. There's little checkboxes where you can check off and order the books you've already read. And I think you may really perhaps enjoy, especially after your year-long project, just seeing what you've read.

CHERYL: I agree. I took a picture of them all. But yeah, I think that that would be kind of nice to see that too. I agree.

GINGER: And lots of mini project lists there because he groups some of those topics.

CHERYL: Oh, he does?

GINGER: Yeah, thanks for reminding me of that.

[00:50:49] CHERYL: Yeah, I like that. Because, you know, if you're coming at this like I am, and you're just kind of trying to like get books together, you only know about what you know about. This book sounds super helpful for that. Thank you.

ANNE: Yeah, discovery and sifting.

CHERYL: Yes.

GINGER: Okay, well, the second book that I have in mind might sort of go along with your English visit. But my question is, have you read — this is not the book, but this is the setup — have you read 84, Charing Cross Road?

CHERYL: I think I did.

GINGER: It's by Helene Hanff. She is a writer living in New York who writes a bookstore owner living in London, England. And she's writing to request one particular book that was a little hard to track down. The two of them began a correspondence and-

CHERYL: Okay, I haven't read this.

GINGER: ...friendship ensues. Highly recommended. But the one I want to recommend specifically to you is called Q's Legacy. And this was sort of her follow up to 84, Charing Cross Road, which you could read in one sitting, I have no doubt. It's a really slim little book of letters. That might be a good prequel here.

[00:51:55] But Q's Legacy is essentially the backstory about why she wrote requesting that book to begin with. Q is a humanities teacher, a British humanities teacher called Arthur Quiller-Couch. And he had sort of essentially, I think what it sounds like to me, Ted Joa's humanities course for her time.

CHERYL: Oh, wow.

GINGER: You know, maybe when she was living, he would have been the Ted back then. And so she sets out to take his course essentially, and, you know, begins a correspondence with these friends. They write back and forth about books. Q's Legacy is really kind of the literary memoir version of her syllabus. And I find it delightful. Whenever someone says they've read 84, Charing Cross Road, the next sentence I ask is, but have you read Q's Legacy? I love it even more. I really do. And I think it's good, nerdy fun. And it will also send you down a project if you so wish.

CHERYL: Oh, I love that. Yeah, that sounds so fun. Thank you.

[00:52:50] GINGER: It's also just a delightful read because Helene Hanff is such a funny writer. You mentioned that you loved humor. She's real funny, quite witty.

CHERYL: When did she write it?

GINGER: Oh, that is a great question. I believe that would have probably been in the 80s. It would have been a follow-up to 84, Charing Cross Road, which I think was written probably more in the 60s or 70s.

CHERYL: Okay. Yeah, that sounds really cool.

GINGER: But it has that old feel. She feels like she could be one of those, you know, Hollywood gumption-y actresses. She's very bantery.

CHERYL: I found in this project that I just finished that I really, really enjoyed some of the mid-20th-century writers. Shocking. But it was just really fun to read them. And so this sounds like a great addition. Thank you.

GINGER: It's also quite short. Okay, for my last pick, I'm going to make you do a little decision here because my mind is going in a couple of different directions. Would you like a modern literary novel written based on a classic play or would you like — actually, both of these are based on a play — or would you like another modern literary novel but a little bit more of a gritty, mysterious element based on a very different kind of play, but it could send you off on another syllabus type series?

[00:54:12] CHERYL: I think I want the gritty.

GINGER: Okay, okay. That is what I find to be a little-known Margaret Atwood title called Hag-Seed. This was part of the Hogarth Shakespeare series where different famous writers rewrote some of the Shakespearean plays. And this one is based on The Tempest, which is one of my favorite plays.

CHERYL: Oh, I just read it earlier this year.

GINGER: Oh, that'll be fresh in your mind.

CHERYL: Yes.

GINGER: So this is the story of a man who is trying to revive a prison theater program. He is sort of confronting his past. There is that same kind of betrayal involved. The setting is a prison. It is Shakespeare's The Tempest. It is a little grittier, but I think what it could do is it could send you down that path.

[00:54:59] A lot in that Hogarth Shakespeare series were really, really fine novels and written by excellent writers like Margaret Atwood. But I feel like when people talk about Margaret Atwood, they talk about The Handmaid's Tale, rightly so, you know, some of her other more well-known books, but I don't hear people talking about Hag-Seed that often. But I really loved this one.

CHERYL: That sounds great. I'm very interested in reading that. Thank you.

GINGER: Okay. So all three of those could really send you down a path of a syllabus and Q's Legacy, another Shakespeare retelling grouping, and then of course, the big tome, 1,000 books, or however many of those you so choose.

CHERYL: That's fine. No, that sounds really cool. And I appreciate your thinking about the big world of books and how you find the right books and that 1,000 books you should read... you read before you die. That sounds very helpful for me. Thank you.

GINGER: Well, as Anne usually asks our guests, what do you think you'll read next?

[00:55:55] CHERYL: So I think because of our England trip, I'm going to read Q's Legacy and 84, Charing Cross Road. I think that I'm going to read those because that'll blend in really well with that. But part of my reading going forward after this project, I found I loved Shakespeare. Like loved it. The big surprise. And so I am going to be reading one Shakespeare play a month until I finish. And I love the idea, not just of the Margaret Atwood novel, but the fact that there's these others, that's very interesting to me. Thank you.

GINGER: Give them all a look. Good. I'm so excited to hear that.

ANNE: We're excited. You're excited. Look, this doesn't even count as one more because if we've already talked about two Helene Hanff. The Duchess of Bloomsbury Street is her book about finally traveling to London to meet the bookseller that she corresponded with and his family and associates. And I don't believe she makes it as far north as York, but she does take many a jaunt out to the surrounding London countryside to see the sights while she's there.

[00:57:01] The Duchess of Bloomsbury Street because that's where her hotel is and someone teases her about how she just holds court. She entertains visitors and dresses up and goes out in the world to be squired around seeing the sights. It's charming.

GINGER: Sounds like a great life, actually.

ANNE: It does. It does.

GINGER: That could be such a fun trilogy because, again, they're all quite slim, and so you could probably tuck those in your bag and read those on the airplane if you were so inclined.

ANNE: Yeah, indeed. That sounds great. Oh, I'm so excited.

ANNE: Cheryl, thank you so much for being our guinea pig and for joining us today.

CHERYL: It's an absolute pleasure. Thank you so much.

GINGER: And here's the real question. Am I allowed to email you with the 11 billion more thoughts that I had?

CHERYL: Please. Please do.

GINGER: Before they come tumbling out of my mouth and this podcast is 17 hours long.

CHERYL: Yes, because there's no limit on email. So please do.

GINGER: I love it.

ANNE: And Ginger, thank you for bringing yourself and your book recommendations to the show today.

GINGER: This was great fun.

ANNE: It's been a pleasure. You too. Thank you so much.

CHERYL: Thank you.

[00:58:01] ANNE: Hey, readers. I hope you enjoyed our conversation with Cheryl, and we would love to hear what you think she may enjoy reading next. Find Cheryl on Substack and other platforms at Crack the Book. We will have all those links in our show notes, and that's where we'll also share all the titles we talked about in today's episode. That's at whatshouldireadnextpodcast.com.

Follow our show on Instagram at @whatshouldireadnext and follow along with updates from the MMD Book Club, spearheaded by Ginger Horton at MMD Book Club.

Join our email list to get updates on new episodes and other happenings at What Should I Read Next? HQ. Sign up at whatshouldireadnextpodcast.com/newsletter.

Thank you to Ginger Horton for joining me today. And to all of the people who make this show happen every week. What Should I Read Next? is created by executive producer Will Bogel, Media production specialist Holly Wielkoszewski, social media manager and editor Leigh Kramer, community coordinator Brigid Misselhorn, community manager Shannan Malone, and our whole team at What Should I Read Next? and Modern Mrs. Darcy HQ. Plus the audio whizzes at Studio D Podcast Production.

[00:59:12] Readers, that's it for this episode. Thanks so much for listening. And as Rainer Maria Rilke said, "Ah, how good it is to be among people who are reading." Happy reading, everyone.