[00:00:00] JANE BALDWIN: Oh my God, that is hilarious. I just threw that out, but honestly, those are kind of interesting titles to compare next to each other.

ANNE BOGEL: Those books have a lot to say to each other.

JANE: I'm sure we'll say more about that.

ANNE: Hey readers, I'm Anne Bogel, and this is What Should I Read Next?. Welcome to the show that's dedicated to answering the question that plagues every reader, what should I read next? We don't get bossy on this show. What we will do here is give you the information you need to choose your next read. Every week we'll talk all things books and reading, and do a little literary matchmaking with one guest.

[00:00:43] Readers, the coming fall weather means sweatshirts will soon be back in my wardrobe rotation, and I have loved the chance to create a few especially cozy styles for the Modern Mrs. Darcy shop over the years. Our latest is the Modern Mrs. Darcy MMD Sorority Sweatshirt, tailor-made for your fall activities on or off campus.

Choose from a crimson or blue jean colored comfort color sweatshirt adorned with navy felt applique letters and white stitching. We also still have a handful of colors and sizes in stock from our 2024 Book Camp sweatshirt design. Order your fall sweatshirt and shop our refreshed for fall collection of bookish merch at modernmrsdarcy.com/shop.

Readers, today's guest has tackled a significant reading project, but she's running into a few roadblocks and is hoping I can help. Jane Baldwin lives with her husband and two dogs in her not-long-ago adopted and much-loved city of St. Louis, where she's an accounting manager by day and a devoted gardener and Dungeons & Dragons regular by night.

[00:01:46] Jane came to us with the desire to feel more intentional in her reading life. She wants to experience the satisfaction of engaging in what she calls meaningful reading more often and sticking with something challenging, but she finds herself easily distracted by the new and shiny. She has ideas for different reading projects but has gotten overwhelmed by the possible options and hasn't done any of them yet.

Right now, she's attempting to fill some gaps she's identified in her American literature reading to date, but she's finding herself stalling out. Jane's put her finger on what to her is an appealing strategy for boosting her enthusiasm for this project. She is wanting to identify clusters of books that can be in conversation with each other, similar to the way we talk about book fights around here. And if you don't know that phrase, no worries at all. Jane and I are about to talk about it plenty. We will catch you up.

Today, Jane is here with her self-appointed 10 classic books she's been meaning to read, and we're going to see if I can identify both contemporary and classic options that will provide interest and context to some of these older picks.

[00:02:49] We're talking about everything from The House of Mirth to The Shampoo Effect, and along the way, we're noticing how much some of Jane's chosen shiny and new books have in common with these older titles she's been less excited to read. But hopefully, at the end of this episode, this'll change. This is good nerdy fun, and I can't wait to dive in with Jane. Let's get to it.

Jane, welcome to the show.

JANE: Thank you so much. I am so delighted to be here.

ANNE: Oh my gosh, the pleasure's mine. I am very excited about what we have in store for us conversationally today. Jane, would you start by just giving the readers a glimpse of who you are? Tell us a little about yourself.

JANE: Yes. I am 33 years old, and my husband and I live in St. Louis, Missouri. We've been here for about five years now, which is hard to believe. We are both Southern transplants. So he was born and raised in Nashville. I went to grad school there, started my career there, and that's where we met. But then we ended up moving to St. Louis for work opportunities.

[00:03:55] We have two rescue dogs. One is a 10-year-old grouchy, small-dog energy. Her name is Francie. And then an 11-month-old puppy named Scout, who is already three times her size. So two very different dog energies going on, but we love them.

For my day job, I am an accounting manager, so most of my workdays look like me just in spreadsheets and numbers, all sort of analytical things. So reading has definitely been a kind of an escape, total opposite of what I do for work, which I love.

ANNE: Do you want to tell us about The Novel Neighbor being your local indie?

JANE: Oh, yes. So fortunately, I live about a mile away, which is walking distance on a good day, to The Novel Neighbor, which is my local indie.

[00:04:52] I actually am on their Young Professionals board for their nonprofit. It's called the Noble Neighbor, and so what we do is we help fundraise for author events at the local public schools in the area. I mean, there's several a year where we'll have “buy books for students”, and then the author will come in and do an author visit. And so it's just been so much fun getting to be a part of that. I've gotten to meet some great people on the Young Professionals board.

Our big thing that we've been doing is we'll do a Kid Lit trivia. So we'll have kids about age 8 to 12 come in, and people at The Novel Neighbor actually help write some of the trivia questions, but it's all to raise money for these author visits. So it's a lot of fun. We really enjoy doing that.

[00:05:44] In addition to that, I've gotten into gardening. We bought our house in St. Louis about four years ago, and whenever we bought it, my goal was just to not kill whatever was in the ground. I didn't really grow up gardening, but I did not want to be the young homeowner with a bunch of dead, dying plants around her house. So I started to really get into it, and now four years later, I am trying to negotiate with my husband how much more of his lawn I can take up with new beds to plant more things in. And so that's a lot of fun.

Another thing that I've started doing is we host a weekly D&D game, or Dungeons & Dragons game with our friends at our house, and that is definitely not anything I ever thought I would get into. It was something that my husband kind of got interested in during the pandemic, and then he slowly but surely convinced me to try it with him. So, yeah, now once a week we'll have people over in our basement and play D&D. And we've made friends that way, and it's a lot of fun. It's kind of stretched me in ways that I never thought, but I'm really grateful for it.

[00:07:00] ANNE: Jane, are there ways that that connects with your reading life? Because you told me what you've been up to lately, and I'm wondering if there's a connection there.

JANE: Yes, slightly. One of our friends mentioned a book series that has gotten pretty popular called Dungeon Crawler Carl. My husband and I have actually been listening to those recently on audiobook together. We've found ourself on a couple of long road trips, and so we've been cranking through those and have really enjoyed them.

This past weekend, a couple of local bookstores put on a bookstore crawl. It was a Dungeon Crawler Carl-themed bookstore crawl that we went on, so we had to do different tasks at each of the different bookstores, including at The Novel Neighbor, which was so fun. It was honestly just an excuse to hang out with friends and buy stuff at our local indies. It was a lot of fun.

[00:07:59] ANNE: That sounds like a blast. I mean, five bookstores in one afternoon sounds like a blast.

JANE: Yes, it is. I'd been to most of them, but there was one that I hadn't been to yet. Honestly, St. Louis is such a reader's city. It's very bookish. We are very lucky with the number of authors who come through, and we'll do author visits, and then also we have so many bookstores. And so it's always fun to have an excuse to go to a bookstore that maybe isn't your closest one, but you can... It's still fun to go visit and see what they have in store.

ANNE: Jane, would you tell us more about your reading life?

JANE: Yes. I was just the stereotypical bookish kid. I came from a family who really encouraged readers. Even my extended family, my grandparents, my aunts and uncles, I mean, they were always big readers as well. And so I always was encouraged to read, and so it has always been such a big part of my life.

[00:09:01] My mom, this is kind of a nerdy memory that just came to me, signed my brother and I up for reading camps during the summers whenever we were kids, so I kind of have fond memories of that as well. But definitely always have been a reader.

Even in middle and high school, my friends fortunately were readers as well, and so swapping books with them. I felt a lot of pride because I introduced my friend group in high school to the Twilight series and The Hunger Games series, which is kind of fun.

But then once I went to college, I actually, even though I'm an accountant now, I majored in English for a semester because I loved reading so much, and that's what I thought I wanted to do. But I'm also a bit practical and analytical, and so I ended up switching my major to accounting, but I still minored in English. About once a semester, I would have an English lit class where I could, you know, have all of my business and accounting and that sort of thing, but then I'd have Shakespeare, or I had women's lit or African American literature.

[00:10:08] So even during college, there was definitely less of personal reading, but I was still really enjoyed my college English classes. But starting young adulthood, like early in my career, I felt like my job was very... It took a lot out of me, so I kind of fell out of reading for pleasure. It was something that I wanted to do, but I found it difficult to make the time and kind of have the brain space until I really started getting into audiobooks.

So around the pandemic, I discovered Libby, and from there, it really started to take off. That's about the time I found this podcast and also the Modern Mrs. Darcy Book Club. And so, yes, since probably 2020, 2021, I felt like my reading life has really taken off and which has been such a delight. It's been such a joy to have the desire to read, but then also be able to make the time for it, and being able to discuss it with other people has been really lovely.

[00:11:22] I would say lately, though, have been reading a lot, and I have ... I feel like I've been kind of in tune with a lot of the buzzy, the popular, the kind of noteworthy recent releases. But I found myself kind of seeing my reading life as being checking things off of the TBR or kind of gravitating towards the flashy and the new, and I'm kind of taking a moment to pause and think about, is this satisfying? Am I wanting a bit more intentionality, I guess, in my reading life? That's kind of what I'm, I guess, looking for right now.

ANNE: You know, I've read your submission, Jane, and I know about the project you're working on, but I didn't know about your history with your literary education. I'm wondering if those two things are converging this season in your life.

[00:12:17] JANE: I think that makes a lot of sense. I think that those classes, just that kind of like one class a semester of English lit, that was just totally different from everything else going on in my life. Having classroom discussions, having obviously a professor, a PhD, talk through these things with me, I really, really loved that.

It was just such a fulfilling thing. Even though it wasn't going towards my career necessarily, it added a lot of enrichment to my life, a lot of meaning. I'm a curious… I'm a thoughtful person, and so it's really nice to have things that add balance to your life. Definitely.

I've been reading along with Pride and Prejudice this month for Austen in August, doing the annotated version, and I have loved that so much. I've never done the annotated version. I've read Pride and Prejudice a couple of times at this point, but going through with the annotations has been so delightful. So I'm kind of looking forward to more of that kind of experience in my reading life.

[00:13:29] ANNE: Oh, okay. I am really wondering how many readers are nodding along going, "Yes," and how many are like, "What are you talking about?" Annotations being delightful. Jane, can I tell you my favorite so far? Because I'm doing this Pride and Prejudice read-along of the annotated edition too.

JANE: Okay, yes, absolutely.

ANNE: So very early in the book, Bingley moves to Netherfield, and there's lots of gossip in the community about who he is, and how much money he makes, and who's going to come live with him. And then there's a ball coming up, and there's lots of chatter about how many people he's going to bring. And he ends up showing up with... not the expected number of people. But the little annotation says, "Gossip is so important in this novel. Let me tell you what that's looked like so far, and let me hint at how it's going to play out." And I was just like, "Ooh, juicy. Tell me more." And "gossip" is not a word that I had previously associated with Pride and Prejudice, even though, holy smokes, it's everywhere. That's my favorite.

[00:14:29] JANE: It is everywhere. I've loved it. Or there was one of the footnotes or annotations about just the novel in general, not like that specific novel, but novels during the 19th century and how they were kind of looked down upon. And so just to look over and it's like, "Oh, there's two paragraphs just about the novel and how it was perceived in the Regency era." And it's like, "Oh, that is fascinating." I just love all of that background.

I'm a very curious person. I can go down a rabbit hole so easily. Like, I'm thrilled to go down any rabbit hole. And so yes, I am adoring these annotations.

ANNE: Okay. So you are curious by nature, you can go down any rabbit hole, and you want intentionality.

JANE: Exactly.

[00:15:24] ANNE: I think all these things, all these things are going to come to the fore today. Okay. Jane, so you've been listening a while, and your reading life has been... What were your words? It really took off in 2020, 2021, and here we are. We're talking in August 2026. What brings you to the show right now?

JANE: I have put a little curriculum together for myself. I guess the background of this would be about a year ago, my husband and I went to Chicago for a long weekend, and I took him to the American Writers Museum.

ANNE: Ugh, jealous. I still haven't been.

JANE: Oh, it's small, but it is so wonderful. It was actually he was having a boys' weekend with some of his college buddies and fantasy football stuff, and so I was like, "Okay, so now we're going to go do this."

ANNE: Counterpart.

[00:16:18] JANE: Yes, exactly. So we went, and I loved it. And it made me realize that there are so many wonderful pieces of American literature that I have just not read. I almost got a little emotional there, which I'm also kind of an emotional person, but just feeling so proud of America's literary legacy. And so I was like, "I definitely need to be intentional about reading more of these writers that I definitely have blind spots in."

And then whenever Harper, I think it's HarperCollins, they had those 250th anniversary editions of some American classics come out. That's what really sparked it. This summer I decided, "You know what? I'm just going to put together a little curriculum for myself, 10 works that are kind of blind spots for me, and I want to work on that." I'm not really giving myself a timeline or a deadline, but that was my intention.

[00:17:25] I started with The House of Mirth by Edith Wharton, and I have found myself stalling out a little bit. I think I'm trying to read these kind of the same way that I would be reading, like, Yesteryear or Shampoo Effect or kind of these buzzy books that I've been reading lately that I've loved. Don't get me wrong, they are a lot of fun. There's a lot to unpack there in those works.

But these are very different types of books that I've chosen, and so I want to kind of do something that's a bit more intentional, where I'm sitting down, and I'm reading, and I'm not just kind of letting them happen to me, but kind of put some more effort into it. I think that's kind of important to me. It's a muscle that I want to work, I guess, instead of just like, "Oh yeah, this is an enjoyable book that I'm listening to or reading," if that makes sense.

[00:18:31] ANNE: Yeah, I can see how reading The House of Mirth could benefit from a little more additional context than The Shampoo Effect.

JANE: Yes, absolutely.

ANNE: Although I kind of like how those books could play really nicely together.

JANE: Oh my God, that is hilarious. I just threw that out, but honestly, those are kind of interesting titles to compare next to each other.

ANNE: Those books have a lot to say to each other. I'm sure we'll say more about that. But readers, if you haven't listened to episode 536 with Lizzie McFarlane, who talks about classic novels and how she had discovered that she couldn't just fall into bed and knock off a few chapters before bed like she would the 2026 new release she grabbed on the front table of the bookstore, we talk about strategies to approach.

So Jane, thank you for bringing a really wonderful companion to that conversation. And yet, this is important to you. This is something you want to do, and we're going to figure out a way for you to, I don't know, think about it differently. And you had some ideas for that.

[00:19:31] JANE: Yes. So you've introduced the concept of flight picks, and so I thought it might be interesting to add some flight picks to my personal curriculum. That might give me a bit more to chew on. It might add a little excitement, just a bit more intentionality to it. And so that's where I thought I could use your help.

ANNE: Okay. And readers, we made that up. That is the royal "we". Readers, when Jane says book flight, w- that is referencing a Modern Mrs. Darcy blog post from a million years ago, or maybe 2011 or 2012, where I was channeling the idea of a wine flight, or I'm in Kentucky, we have bourbon flights, where you have several options in front of you that have a lot in common but also have been purposely curated for contrast and comparison so that you can better appreciate what is distinctive about each individual component of the flight. So that's what we're talking about.

[00:20:40] Jane, I'm really excited to talk today about... you thought starting with some Edith Wharton flight picks would be a great idea. Can we zoom out first and talk about the books that you've brought to the show today?

JANE: Yes, absolutely.

ANNE: Okay. Well, you know how this works. You're going to share three books you love, one you don't, and what you've been reading lately. How did you choose these?

JANE: I didn't want to overthink it too much.

ANNE: Love it.

JANE: These are just three books that I've read within the past year or so that I really loved, but they also are pretty distinct from each other. So it would take a good picture of what types of books that I enjoy usually.

The first one is The Bright Years by Sarah Damoff. This was, I believe, a 2025 Summer Reading Guide pick.

ANNE: Yes, it was.

[00:21:39] JANE: This was my favorite book that I read in 2025.

ANNE: Wow.

JANE: I remember as soon as you started describing it, I was like, "Oh, that's one that I'm going to end up buying," because, and this is a little sneaky, my favorite book of all time is A Tree Grows in Brooklyn, and so I'm sneaking in maybe a fourth pick. A Tree Grows in Brooklyn by Betty Smith. This book, while definitely not a retelling, it definitely pays homage to that book.

So The Bright Years follows Ryan and Lillian Bright and their marriage, as well as their daughter, Georgette Bright. It takes place in Texas, which I lived in Texas for several years. I have family who still lives there. The book starts with them meeting in Texas while Lillian is reading a copy of A Tree Grows in Brooklyn. I was like, "Oh, this book is going to be for me, for sure."

[00:22:42] It talks about their marriage and a lot of the struggles, the secrets that they have, and then it also is part coming-of-age story with their daughter, Georgette, and it kind of mirrors A Tree Grows in Brooklyn that way, which is definitely a coming-of-age story of Francie Nolan at the turn of the century in Brooklyn.

I mean, I just loved it. It is so full of heart, but it also talks about really difficult things. I just loved it. I don't have my copy with me because I mailed it to my aunt and told her, "You have to read this." So, yes, it is just one of my very favorite books.

ANNE: Now, I'm not saying we had the same experience reading this book, but this is telling me that you're okay to go pretty emotional places.

JANE: Oh, absolutely. Definitely. I don't tend towards... I don't want it to be overly saccharine, overly sweet, or melodramatic just for the sake of being emotional. But if it's grounded and if it feels true, then I can do emotional. Absolutely.

[00:23:58] ANNE: Okay. I will file that away. Jane, what's the second book you love?

JANE: The second book that I chose is Into the Blue by Emma Brodie. That came out, I believe, this spring. It's the book that made me realize that me and Jenna Bush Hager may have very similar reading tastes, because I believe this is one of her imprint books. It's a romance. It follows AJ Graves the summer before her senior year of high school in the year 2000, and she is working at a movie store when the Noah Drew of the Drew family, if you can hear those air quotes, walks in, and he's also working there.

And he comes from a famous acting family. And so that summer they become acting partners, and there is a lot of yearning, a lot of emotional turmoil, I guess. But at the end of that summer, he just disappears without a word. Then it jumps forward, and they reconnect because of reasons.

[00:25:15] But I loved this one. It's also emotional. There's a lot of yearning, like I said. I also really enjoyed kind of the behind-the-scenes nature of it. There's Hollywood illusions. AJ, the protagonist, she works at SNL, Saturday Night Live, for part of this book. I'm a curious person, so I love any sort of, kind of behind-the-scenes look at anything that I may not be familiar with.

So, yes, that one was a lot of fun, but it also did... definitely was pretty emotional. I remember I read this on a plane, which I'm not a very good plane reader. I get easily distracted. It's hard for me to kind of focus in, but I remember reading this book on both legs of the flight the entire time. Literally, I sat in my seat, pulled the book out, did not put it down until the seatbelt sign went off whenever we landed. Loved it, totally engrossed.

ANNE: Well, that sounds amazing

[00:26:19] JANE: So my third book is Blood Over Brighthaven by M. L. Wang, and this is a fantasy dark academia book. It's a standalone, which I really appreciate in that space. I feel like most of these kind of fantasy books tend to be at least a trilogy. So I always appreciate it whenever an author can tell their story within the pages of one novel.

It follows Sciona, who is an extremely bright, incredibly driven high mage. She is the first one, first woman, that is, to become a high mage at the University of Magics and Industry. That is basically her life, has been working towards this. But what I love about it is how it explores systemic issues and society at large.

[00:27:19] So their society is powered by advanced magical technology. So what I loved about this was it explores so many different types of dynamics. She is given an assistant who was a janitor but he has definitely a backstory. He's more than what he seems. He's from a marginalized group who has come to their city.

What I loved about it was how much it explored gender dynamics, systems of power, systems of oppression. It felt incredibly relevant even though this was taking place in a magical society powered by magic. So it really stuck with me. I made my husband read it. I made a couple other friends read it.

This would have been my favorite book last year if it weren't for The Bright Years. And I don't do a lot of fantasy normally. I think part of the reason that I enjoyed it so much was that it was a bit of a unique reading experience for me. So I'm definitely interested and I've been trying to... I don't know if she has anything else coming out, but I definitely loved this one.

[00:28:38] ANNE: Well, I'm so glad you took a chance on it and that it worked for you.

JANE: Yes, definitely. I think that's part of what comes with the delight of the reading experience, is whenever you kind of take a chance on something, and then it ends up paying off even more because of that.

ANNE: Definitely. Now, Jane, tell us about a book that was not a good fit for you, and we'd love to hear why.

JANE: I'm pretty good at DNF-ing books. That is not a problem that I have. And so I wanted to come with one that I at least finished. The book I've decided was The Shippers by Katherine Center, which was a bit of a surprise to me because I've read several of her other books, like The Bodyguard and The Love Haters, and I really enjoyed those.

[00:29:29] But this one was just kind of a miss for me, I think because the premise seemed a little flimsy maybe, or the character's motivations and the decisions she made and what justified them, it just seemed a little bit of a stretch to me. It didn't feel super grounded. Not that I need a very grounded romance, but it fell a little bit flat for me. It wasn't quite as relatable maybe or I feel like the rationale for the decisions that the main character made seemed a bit unbelievable or maybe kind of a stretch. So it kind of took me out of it a little bit, if that makes sense.

ANNE: So you don't need what happens in your stories to be real exactly, thinking about Blood Over Bright Haven.

JANE: Exactly.

ANNE: But you want the characters' actions to feel true.

JANE: Yes. Yes.

ANNE: Please hear that as a question.

JANE: No, no, no, that makes a lot of sense. I think that's put very well.

[00:30:32] ANNE: Okay. So you and the protagonist, supporting characters as well, were not in sync.

JANE: Exactly, yes. And it's not that I even... I don't even have to have a likable character. Like, I loved Jester Year, and I would say that that was not a likable main character. But I have to at least understand why they're making the decisions that they're making, or it needs to feel logical, or somewhat logical. I don't know. It seemed like a little bit of a stretch, kind of the premise and the reason she made her decisions. It all felt a little bit flimsy. So it just didn't land quite with me like some of her other works have.

ANNE: Okay. I wonder if you didn't feel the sense of trust and comfort you needed to let your guard down with the story?

JANE: That's interesting.

ANNE: I guess there's a couple ways to interpret that. What I mean is that perhaps... I'm thinking of times when my readerly brain is spending a lot of time closer to the surface going, "Do I buy this?" Which prevents me from really entering the story. If I'm still trying to figure out if I'm down with the premise, then I feel, I think, removed from the book.

[00:31:50] JANE: Yeah. I think that makes sense. There was a lot of maybe internal discussion with myself in my brain. I'm like, "Are we buying this?" Like, "What do we think about this?" Instead of really just falling into a story.

ANNE: Yeah. And I mean that differently from reading critically. I think you can read critically and still be very much engaged. But that's different from the I'm still in the phase of deciding: do I trust that what the author is telling me is true to the story itself? Not true, like, could it really happen in reality, but is everything aligned the way it needs to be? Does this feel right?

JANE: Yes. I think that makes a lot of sense. There is the good internal dialogue you have with yourself about, oh, making connections, and that makes me think of this, so I want to go look up this afterwards, or, oh, this is making me relate to this, versus what I said earlier, like, yeah, I don't know that I buy this, that I am buying into this story that they're telling. I think that makes a lot of sense.

[00:32:54] ANNE: I mean, I'm thinking about this, and I'm saying all of this as like I love Katherine Center.

JANE: Oh, yeah.

ANNE: But just thinking about the reading experience, like The Bright Years by Sarah Damoff, so much of that book is about topics I do not know enough about to know for sure, like would it really look like this, Sarah Damoff? But I felt like what she was showing me about the characters and their motivations and their actions, even when extreme, felt — repeating myself — felt true and real, and it didn't take me out of the story. I didn't need to step back and go like, "Wait, whoa, whoa, whoa, wait a second. Are we sure? Like, really? Do you think I'm going to buy that? Am I supposed to buy that? Is this plot..." It all felt like seamless story world.

JANE: Right. I would definitely agree with that. Absolutely.

ANNE: So, did you have any takeaways about this reading experience for what it means for future you?

[00:33:48] JANE: Well, I feel like this was a case... I mean, this is an author that I have read before and have enjoyed. I wonder maybe if my taste in romance novels has changed a little bit. During the pandemic, I started to read them a lot more. I think Emily Henry honestly is what kind of brought me to romance novels like that. And so maybe my tastes are changing a little bit, or this was just a case of it was new, and I think it was a Book of the Month choice that I got. And so maybe being a little bit more intentional about some of the things that I'm choosing as opposed to like, "Oh, here's just the flashy newest book." Because if I had read the premise, I probably would've been like, "Eh, do I buy that?"

ANNE: I've heard a lot of readers say also it's too close to COVID for them to read a cruise ship book. Period. The end.

JANE: That's true. Part of it was like, do I enjoy being on a cruise ship right now? I don't know that this is a location that I really want to be on. Truthfully.

[00:34:53] ANNE: Valid. Okay, we will keep that in mind as we think about-

JANE: Yeah, no cruise ships.

ANNE: ...what you'll enjoy for your project. All right. Jane, what have you been reading lately?

JANE: I know that I mentioned The Shampoo Effect earlier, by Jenny Jackson. I really loved this one. I read Pineapple Street, which was her debut work, a couple of summers ago now at this point. I really love messy relationships with interesting characters. They can totally be flawed, but I just love reading about those dynamics, and I think she writes about class and belonging in a really interesting way.

Another one that I've read recently was Sisters of a Halved Heart by Nayantara Roy. I adored this. Talk about messy relationships and emotional work. I was absolutely gripped by it from the start. I loved Mira, even though she was definitely flawed and had her own issues, but I was with her the entire way. I felt exactly how she felt the entire novel.

[00:36:07] I even audibly gasped at the ending. Like, my husband turned, he's like, "What? What's wrong?" And I was like, "Oh, no, just another book got me." It was such an enjoyable experience.

And then also, obviously, I've been slowly working through The House of Mirth. I am maybe a third of the way through it, but have just kind of put it down and have gotten distracted by other things. But I definitely am not wanting to give up on it. I want to find some flight picks maybe that'll kind of draw me back in, that'll give some new life to this project that I've started for myself. And that make me excited to keep going.

ANNE: Jane, as we move forward, I would love to hear you address something you said in your submission that really caught me, in part because I relate and in part because I've heard the same sentiment or similar from so many of our listeners.

[00:37:12] You said that you too often experience being overwhelmed by choices, so you didn't end up doing any of them. And I wonder if you could speak to that more. The struggle, anything you found to work, how that factors into how we think about your literary project together.

JANE: Absolutely. So I feel like the last few years I've decided not to necessarily overwhelm myself by choice with having a big project or anything like that. I feel like reading more and getting through more books and finding so much more enjoyment in the reading life has been such a lovely recent thing over the past few years that I didn't really want to add overwhelm or add a burden to that.

It's interesting also around the time that I really started picking up my reading, I was diagnosed, very surprisingly to me, with ADHD, which is something that, after I realized that, and I talked to a lot of other or some other friends, women around my age, and how they also were diagnosed with ADHD late in life, I feel like so much of the narrative around ADHD is kind of like the stereotypical 10-year-old boy who can't stay in his seat in class, can't stay focused.

[00:38:40] But in women, and I can't speak obviously for all women, I can speak from my personal experience with it, it looks a lot different. We're not necessarily fidgeting and can't stay still in our seat, although there might be some of that. But it's more in our brains. It's more spending a lot of time in our heads and easily distracted, can be easily overwhelmed by things.

So for the past few years, it's really been, for me, about simplifying the reading life, about kind of going where my curiosity takes me, what sounds interesting at the time. I can be a bit of a mood reader, and so just kind of leaning into that and letting enjoyment kind of take the reins.

But it's been more recently where I've decided that I kind of want to find enjoyment in different ways. So instead of just going wherever my curiosity and wherever the wind takes me, or my whims take me, be a bit more intentional, kind of grow that muscle. That's what brought me to deciding to do this reading project of picking books that I have kind of blind spots of in American literature, and let's be a bit more intentional. Let's work on focus and about reading things that may take a little bit more effort, a bit more intentionality, that maybe yesteryear, for example, did not take much effort or intentionality to work through.

[00:40:15] But I do find that being someone with ADHD, it definitely does affect my reading life because there is a lot of overwhelm that can come from it. There are so many different choices. I know that you've mentioned book projects before and like, "Oh, they all sound great. I definitely want to do this." But like I said, I've been working on simplifying my reading life and not putting too much overwhelm, just to foster it, to let it grow.

But what comes with it is a lot of curiosity. Whenever you find something that your brain can kind of sink into and go down those rabbit holes, there's so much meaning that can be found there. It's really such a rewarding experience.

ANNE: I'm so glad to hear that. Jane, I appreciate you talking about the joys and the challenges and what you're doing now that you have this information to try to find more intentionality, and I think ultimately satisfaction from your reading life.

JANE: Yes. Sounds wonderful.

[00:41:23] ANNE: Jane, you said you're looking for flight picks to go with The House of Mirth, especially ones that may be contemporary. Is that right?

JANE: Yes, contemporary would be fine. Honestly, I'm open to whatever you might suggest, but yes, what I'm looking for would be books that be in conversation with The House of Mirth that would kinda give a little more energy, a little more insight, context, anything like that.

ANNE: You've been thinking about this for a little while. How are you thinking about it? What are you coming up with? Where are you getting stuck?

JANE: I have found that I can't read these books the same way I would just like, you know, going to bed before... you know, I'm laying in bed and I'm reading a book before I go to bed. These are going to require maybe a little bit of time blocking, honestly, have a little bit of a schedule for myself. But I'm also finding that I'm kind of stalling out a bit whenever it comes to reading this, because I'm not finding a lot to, I guess, latch onto, if that makes sense.

[00:42:35] I think, like with Jane Austen, even though this book was written probably a century later, it's over a century old. And having all of the annotations, all of the context from Jane Austen, from Pride and Prejudice in the annotated version, has been so enlightening. I think what I'm looking for is maybe something that's more contemporary that would kind of shed a light on more of the context going on at the time that The House of Mirth takes place. Just something like that, if that makes sense.

ANNE: Yeah.

JANE: Or even books that might be an interesting conversation. Like we were talking about Shampoo Effect, even though I did not even think about that at all initially, what that says about belonging, about class, even the setting. I mean, it's Northeast, so not exactly the same place, but same general kind of vibe. Those kinds of picks, I think that would be really interesting for me to kind of see what they might have to say together.

[00:43:54] ANNE: Okay. Jane, when it comes to stamina for reading some of these classics on your list, your classics reading list project, I've heard that you know there's a couple different ways in. Like the annotated edition of Jane Austen is really working for you, and you could do some similar things in that regard.

I feel like SparkNotes gets a bad name in adult reading communities, but reading through the summary on SparkNotes could be really helpful to know the overview of what you're settling in for before you really get into the sentence-level reading of it.

And it sounds like another way, besides those more studious from your English major days approaches is to, like you said, read works that could be in interesting conversation with Edith Wharton about the same themes that you'll find in those pages.

[00:44:56] And what I hear you saying is that reading more contemporary, I think more accessible novels, ones that are easier to read when you're already sleepy, and still follow what's happening and still care about the characters, that that would add a nuance and richness to your appreciation for the topic that would then help Edith Wharton come to light in the same way. Am I tracking?

JANE: No, that makes a lot of sense. I think that's very well put, that what I'm wanting to do is give these books the due diligence that they deserve. But I've, of late, not kind of put myself through the rigor of reading these kinds of books lately. And so wanting to sharpen those — I'm mixing all of my metaphors — build those muscles.

ANNE: We can follow.

JANE: I want to build those muscles, and give these works kind of what they're owed. And so hopefully, as I kind of work through this list, that I'll be gaining the muscle. But, you know, to start with Edith Wharton, I think it would be really helpful to have more of an accessible entry.

[00:46:15] ANNE: Wait a second. You know what we're leaving out of here is how you love to follow your curiosity. So we want to feed your curiosity with maybe surprisingly related, but related works.

JANE: I do love. I love whenever I can make connections with things that are surprising. I think that definitely adds to the delight.

ANNE: Okay. I'm glad to hear it. You know what? I've been thinking about themes in The House of Mirth. Like well, marriage, insecurity, and how those two things go together. Freedom and how marriage takes it away. Agency, beauty, wealth, manners, propriety, and social climbing, one of my favorites to read about in fiction.

But I wonder if something biographical would be a different way in. A couple of years ago, this novel by Maria Fredericks came out called The Wharton Plot, and this is biographical fiction about Edith Wharton. And Frederick's premise here is, what if novelist Edith Wharton, because of the way her brain works, was persuaded to play amateur sleuth to solve the historically real murder of her colleague, the novelist David Graham Phillips, which took place in 1911 in New York City.

[00:47:35] And The House of Mirth came out in 1905. So these are closely enough related in time that you could trust that if Fredericks did her job well as a historical novelist, then she's portraying the New York City that ought to be quite similar to the one portrayed in The House of Mirth. Does this sound promising?

JANE: That sounds very promising. I remember hearing about this title and thinking, "Oh, that sounds like something I should read," but I have not gotten around to it.

ANNE: That's wonderful, because now we can talk about it today. The thing that I enjoyed about this is it was just... I mean, it was entertaining, well-constructed mystery, but also just packed with these little interesting- factual tidbits about Wharton's life, and her writing, and her relationships. And I wonder if getting to know the woman behind the book could be illuminating and maybe add some richness to the way you're approaching the text.

[00:48:34] The thing about the Phillips murder was this novelist was shot outside the Fan... I think it was the Princeton Club at Gramercy Park, and his killer was a Harvard-educated musician, who was a violinist in a city symphony, who came from a prominent family. And his killer murdered him because he believed that the novel that the victim, Phillips, had written had cast literary aspersions on the killer's family.

So Wharton's a novelist, and for her, the question is, what kind of book could incite a murder, and why? And she's got to figure out what's in the text, what is it saying, what does the killer think it's saying, how did that lead to the murder? Like, this is how she's going to track down the perpetrator of this crime.

And I asked you this once, but knowing a little more, might that bring a new facet to your reading of The House of Mirth? Or does it sound interesting for its own sake, I suppose?

[00:49:34] JANE: Oh, yes. That sounds definitely interesting. Now I want to know more about the author who was murdered as well. That's really interesting

ANNE: That's going to be in the pages of the book, and you can rabbit trail to your heart's content, looking up what is known about what happened back then.

JANE: No, that definitely sounds very interesting.

ANNE: Okay. Well, that could be one interesting place to start. You've already read The Shampoo Effect, which-

JANE: I have, yes.

ANNE: This is me kind of nodding and smiling, but nobody can see that. What I like about that is you have an outsider coming in, disrupting the long-held and tacitly agreed-upon conventions of how one small society, that is this friend group, functions. And you've got questions of agency and relationships, not marriage exactly, but relationships, and money, and beauty, and status, and you've got social climbing.

[00:50:38] So contemporary and quite different in genre and feel, but not a stranger to the themes in The House of Mirth. So you've already read that one. And then for something that sounds so different, but again, many of the themes, the underlying themes are similar, have you ever read Patricia Highsmith, and specifically The Talented Mr. Ripley?

JANE: I have not, no.

ANNE: Okay. This is a classic from about 50 years later. It came out in the '50s, and it introduces us to one of the best-known characters in literature that many people know second or thirdhand or from a film, or from the references in books like Jean Hanff Korelitz's The Plot. But this is very readable, still relevant, still referenced all the time, and just continues to influence and inspire new works of fiction.

[00:51:33] So when we meet the Mr. Ripley, Tom Ripley of the title, he's living in New York City. This is set roughly in the present day to when it's written, and he's engaged in some petty crimes. But then he has a chance meeting that changes the course of his life, and soon enough, he's taking off for Italy with the task of persuading an old friend to return home to work in the family business and see his ailing mother. And he has positioned himself fraudulently in order to get this gig. He's a social climber.

So when Ripley gets to Italy, at first he admires his old friend, he's glad to see him, he begins to emulate him, but before long he decides he wants to become him. And the way that Highsmith puts this on the page has definitely made Ripley not just one of literature's best-known characters, but best-known psychopaths.

[00:52:27] This is a true crime classic. It uses the writerly perspective in very interesting ways. I mean, you get a little bit of vicarious travel that you also get in The House on Mars. How is this sounding? Too far-fetched or potentially interesting?

JANE: No, no, that's interesting. That's one of those titles that I've definitely heard of before but have never really had the opportunity or thought about reading it, so I'm definitely intrigued. I do find it interesting that, you know, two crime novels potentially, but that is... nothing wrong with that. It's just kind of a funny coincidence. But I do find that definitely interesting.

ANNE: Yeah, there's not as much crime in Edith Wharton, but you know, a good flight pick might be a nice one about gambling. I don't have any on the top of my head, but that is a major factor in The House of Mirth. I haven't read this one, and don't know terribly much about it, but Jennifer Egan has a novel from a while ago, 2000, 2001, called Look at Me, that has a fair amount of Wharton in it, and name-checks The House of Mirth at one point.

[00:53:35] It's about a young woman who used to be a model, who's in a car wreck bad enough that it ended her career. So she comes back to Manhattan, and no longer has what it takes to enter into the fashion world again, but just kind of floats on the edges, as I understand. And this is supposed to be darkly funny, yet sympathetic, about a woman reaching for a life that's always just out of grasp, like Edith Wharton's Lily Bart.

JANE: No, that sounds interesting as well. I love that it takes place in New York City. My brother and sister-in-law used to live there, and I don't get to go there as often as I used to, but I love novels set there. So that definitely sounds interesting as well. I've heard of Jennifer Egan.

I've never read anything by her before, but that definitely sounds like something I would enjoy, especially something that can be darkly funny. I do tend to really enjoy those. Whenever you're laughing and you're like, "Eh, should I be laughing at this?" I can definitely appreciate that.

[00:54:44] ANNE: Yeah. This is one of her older works, not her debut, but one of her earlier works. She's probably best known for A Visit from the Goon Squad. More recently-

JANE: Yeah, that's the one that I've heard.

ANNE: Yeah, yeah. Manhattan Beach, The Candy House. And let's see. One of my favorite novels that feels like an homage to much classic literature, and is historical fiction, is Amor Towles' Rules of Civility. Have you read that one?

JANE: I have, yes. I love Amor Towles. That one's really good.

ANNE: Readers, if this is unfamiliar to you, this is a book that takes place over the course of one year, beginning on New Year's Eve 1937, when a life-changing encounter in a Greenwich Village... Oh, I want to say it's a jazz bar changes the lives of the two young women and one young man involved. A love triangle develops, and we have a fair amount of social climbing and navigating the rules of money and marriage and society and propriety and class. I really love this book. That holds up on a reread. You know, I wonder if Amor Towles in general feels in the line of Edith Wharton.

[00:56:01] JANE: I can see that, especially with Gentleman in Moscow, which I've read, it's been several years, but I loved the way that he was... It also is about class and kind of the reorganization of the Russia's society. But I loved that one as well.

ANNE: We talked about how flights are for comparing and contrasting, and I'm just thinking about how the function of morals and virtue and what it means to be truly good and what it means to be good on the surface are quite different in like A Gentleman in Moscow versus The House on Mirth.

JANE: Oh, yeah, absolutely. That's interesting to think about.

ANNE: Yeah, because Lily Bart is struggling to master and live by and accede to the hidden rules of old New York high society. Like, in Gentleman in Moscow, it's more obvious that the rules are a sham and it is what is in your heart that matters.

[00:57:08] JANE: Absolutely. That might be one I need to revisit. It's a book that I love so much, but I haven't read it in so long. That might be interesting to reread. I'm not much of a rereader, but sometimes it's absolutely worth it, especially years later, to kind of see how your reading of it changes as you've changed.

ANNE: Could be. And I wouldn't have thought of Jane Austen as a promising flight pick, except that you're reading it right now. And I was saying how my favorite annotation thus far is about gossip. And The House on Mirth is very much about how, I mean, a malicious rumor can destroy your life. And someone sets out to do that to Lily Bart in The House on Mirth. Not that she doesn't do plenty to undermine her own cause. But economic dependency, marriage equals money equals marriage equals security for women. There's a lot in those two books that's quite similar, even though one was written almost 100 years after the other.

[00:58:13] JANE: That is very interesting to think about, just even the different countries, different centuries, but there is a lot to compare and contrast about a woman's place in society and what the freedom they have to do, but also how dependent they still must be. There's definitely a lot of overlap there.

ANNE: Yeah. I hope those flight picks sound interesting. I do wonder, based on what you say you're seeking, if you could channel your English major days and give yourself like a 5 to 10-minute professorial overview about what you will find in the pages of The House on Mirth and then dive in. Like, if you equipped yourself like you were equipping your favorite student that you wanted to have a good reading experience, and then you sent her on her way into the remaining two-thirds of that book, I wonder if that's an assignment that makes sense in the context of this project.

[00:59:12] JANE: No, I think that does. That's a really good idea just to kind of level set and remember like, okay, this is why we're doing it. And also just to kind of start that curiosity to go, because whenever that goes, it just brings a whole lot more delight and enjoyment to the reading experience.

ANNE: I love that you know what is going to make this satisfying for you. And even as I say that, that sounds amazing to me too. Jane, I wonder if you would humor us and tell us the 10 classics on your classics reading list.

JANE: Oh, absolutely. So the first one, obviously we've talked at length about, The House of Mirth by Edith Wharton, then My Ántonia by Willa Cather, Native Son by Richard Wright, East of Eden by John Steinbeck, Fahrenheit 451 by Ray Bradbury, Song of Solomon by Toni Morrison, The House on Mango Street by Sandra Cisneros, The Joy Luck Club by Amy Tan, The Poisonwood Bible by Barbara Kingsolver, and Braiding Sweetgrass by Robin Wall Kimmerer, which that last one is not exactly a classic, but it's one that I've been meaning to read for a while. And also I thought it was important to include an indigenous work in my personal curriculum about American literature.

[01:00:41] ANNE: It doesn't seem too soon to call that a hugely influential American book.

JANE: Yeah, I would agree with that, for sure.

ANNE: And your project, your rules.

JANE: Exactly. Exactly. And I'm not turning this in for a grade. I'm not going to get points off on a technicality. It's what I want it to be.

ANNE: And for any of these, think about the themes or what interests you about the work, why you want to read it, and to start from there on choosing your flight picks. Come to your fellow readers if you need help.

JANE: Yeah, absolutely. Now I'm like, "Okay, I need to sit down and do this process for each of these books." Some of them are obviously a bit more recent than others, so the access point is not going to be quite as difficult to kind of get into that headspace, but I think it's still worth doing to kind of sitting down, set the intentionality kind of the themes that I'm looking for, look up potential pairings, that sort of... Go to the SparkNotes. I want my line SparkNotes if it's available. So just to kind of level set, just got very excited about this, honestly.

[01:01:48] ANNE: Well, that sounds fun.

JANE: Just kind of started to English major-nerd out a little bit.

ANNE: Oh, that sounds like a dream. Now, you're the boss, but I would encourage you to not do that before you read The House on Mirth, or at least how about the next third? The next third of The House of Mirth.

JANE: No, I agree. I will only do it for House of Mirth. I'll do it one at a time. How about that? I will do it one at a time. As I finish one, then I can kind of go to the next... go to the next section, I guess, if you will.

ANNE: That sounds great. Jane, what's your next move on your project?

JANE: So I think what I'm going to do is I do need to pick up House of Mirth again, but before I do that, I think I'm going to do a little biographical reading. The Wharton Plot, I think I'm going to start with that, honestly, and kind of get into that mindset, and then finish The House of Mirth, and then move to one other flight pick suggestions.

[01:02:48] ANNE: That sounds like a solid plan. How are you feeling about it?

JANE: I'm very excited. I'm really looking forward to it.

ANNE: I'm glad to hear it. Jane, thanks so much for the conversation and for bringing your reading project to What Should I Read Next?.

JANE: Oh, thank you so much. This has been so helpful, and it's been such a delight to get to chat books with you.

ANNE: The pleasure's mine

Hey, readers. I hope you enjoyed my conversation with Jane, and I'd love to hear what you think she should read next. Find Jane online. She's on Substack, Instagram, and StoryGraph. We have all those links, along with the full list of titles we talked about today at whatshouldireadnextpodcast.com, as always.

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Thank you to the people who make the show happen. What Should I Read Next? is created each week by executive producer Will Bogel, Media production specialist Holly Wielkoszewski, social media manager and editor Leigh Kramer, community coordinator Brigid Misselhorn, community manager Shannan Malone, and our whole team at What Should I Read Next? and Modern Mrs. Darcy HQ. Plus the audio whizzes at Studio D Podcast Production.

Readers, that's it for this episode. Thanks so much for listening. And as Rainer Maria Rilke said, "Ah, how good it is to be among people who are reading." Happy reading, everyone.

JACQUELYN DUGGAN: When I think about what used to be on the table at my grandparents' house, you know, it would be something local, maybe about an area that we live in or something. But I feel like now-

ANNE BOGEL: That's my living room.

JACQUELYN: Yeah. There's nothing wrong with that. I love it. I think it's so interesting, and I think that they can take a whole new perspective now.

ANNE: Hey readers, I'm Anne Bogel, and this is What Should I Read Next?. Welcome to the show that's dedicated to answering the question that plagues every reader, what should I read next? We don't get bossy on this show. What we will do here is give you the information you need to choose your next read. Every week we'll talk all things books and reading, and do a little literary matchmaking with one guest.

[00:00:56] Readers, our Fall Book Preview is coming up soon on September 17th. And this year, our eighth year, we are featuring a new option to purchase a compact printed booklet that we're calling our Look Book to complement your Fall Book Preview experience.

If you've already purchased your a la carte ticket, or you're a member of our Modern Mrs. Darcy Book Club, Patreon, all-inclusive, or Patreon Bonuses and Events tiers, then you're all set to receive the digital guide and attend our live unboxing. If you're not, choose the best way to attend and save your space at modernmrsdarcy.com/fbp. That's for Fall Book Preview.

And if you'd also enjoy a little analog delight, I think you'll really love this year's printed Look Book. We have thoughtfully designed this in a smaller format than our printed magazine-style Summer Reading Guide, so you can tuck it in your journal, take it to the library bookstore, take it to coffee with a friend, take it everywhere, basically. It is pleasantly packed with bookish goodness for the literary season to come, and also includes backlist recommendations perfect for fall from our team.

[00:02:01] We designed this with an accessible price point top of mind. So you can have one sent to your door for right around 10 bucks, and that includes shipping. I think you're going to love it. This year we also prioritized making it stand alone from unboxing in a stronger way than it ever has before. So unboxing's wonderful, but if you know, "I don't have the time to do that this season," as good as it may be, then get our Look Book. It'll come to your mail. It's beautifully done. The professional printing is going to look amazing. I hope you'll take a look, find out more, and select the Fall Book Preview experience that's right for you this year at modernmrsdarcy.com/fbp.

Readers, today's guest has always been clear on her go-to genres, the ones she really loves and that she knows works for her. But lately, something has shifted in her reading life, and she's not sure why or what to do about it.

[00:02:54] Jacquelyn Duggan is joining me from home in Richmond, Virginia, where, in addition to reading, she enjoys being outside and working in her flower garden, with a special appreciation for her zinnias and roses. In her submission, Jacquelyn told us that with this unexplained shift in her reading tastes, she's finding herself skipping the books and turning to other forms of entertainment, like rewatching favorite TV shows.

While we love a good TV show around here, and her favorite shows are favorites for a reason, she is not happy with this substitution. Jacquelyn is hoping I can help her pinpoint what's going on with her reading life right now so she can get back to the books she loves. Or perhaps what she wants to do is get into the new-to-her kinds of books that might be right for her in this season.

There's one element of her reading life that Jacquelyn has remained clear and confident about, and that is her love for a great coffee table book. I love them, too. You know we'll talk about it today. We have recommendations.

Readers, this is going to be fun. Let's get to it.

Jacquelyn, welcome to the show.

[00:03:55] JACQUELYN: Thanks, Anne. I am so, so excited to be here.

ANNE: Oh, the pleasure's mine. I'm really excited about the places we're going to go today.

JACQUELYN: Me too.

ANNE: Jacquelyn, would you start by telling us a little about yourself? What we want to do is give our listeners a glimpse of who you are.

JACQUELYN: Absolutely. Well, I am 33. I live in Richmond, Virginia with my husband, our doodle, Murphy, and our nine-month-old daughter. Life is just a blast right now. It's full and fun and just everything we've dreamed of. I work for a wound care company, actually based out of Seattle, Washington. I'm not a provider, but I support our provider team and our executive team, and it's just really meaningful work. I enjoy it very much.

[00:04:51] Then outside of work, I love to take barre classes at our local barre studio, love to be outside. We have a thriving garden right now, although it's just now starting to thrive. It's been a little hit or miss this summer, but we enjoy that and love to hike and take walks and just be together as a family. And of course, reading is my very favorite way to wind down most days.

ANNE: Speaking of reading, this is open-ended on purpose. Would you tell us about your reading life?

JACQUELYN: Yeah. I know. Right now it takes a lot of forms. I feel like most days I read at the end of the day, and really like to pick up a couple different types of books. I, of course, love a good fiction and really open with that. I enjoy contemporary fiction. I love a good rom-com. I love a mystery. I'll sprinkle in some thrillers here and there.

[00:05:56] But another type of book that I really, really love, I refer to it as a coffee table book. The one that I'm most into right now is The Backyard Bird Chronicles by Amy Tan. I love this one so much just for the visuals of it. She has literal drawings of her birds that she observed in her backyard. It's really like a diary log of just observing birds in her yard.

I put this in the coffee table book category because, you know, when I think back to being a kid and, you know, my mom would have books on the coffee table, my grandparents have books on the coffee table. But I feel like we have such a fun picture, like a fun access to them now. I feel like they've really taken shape. I consider this type of book a coffee table book because you can set it out, you can look at it, put it down.

[00:06:56] I notice when people come over to our house, they'll notice what I have out on the coffee table. It might be a cookbook. It might be a book like Amy Tan's. And it's just fun to see what people do with it. They'll either flip through it, or I'll have friends really dive in and take a look at what I've got, and it always just sparks fun conversation. But I always enjoy reading that at the end of the day. It always feels like a little bit of a bedtime story, like something soothing to kind of close my day that way. So yeah, between fiction and that, that's mostly what I like to read these days.

ANNE: I'd love to hear more about coffee table books. You mentioned in your submission that you felt that they were often underrated and sometimes misunderstood.

JACQUELYN: Totally, totally. Like I said, I feel like they... when I think about what used to be on the table at my grandparents' house or even at my parents' house, it would be something local, maybe about an area that we live in or something. But I feel like now-

ANNE: That's my living room.

[00:08:07] JACQUELYN: Yeah. There's nothing wrong with that. I love it. I think it's so interesting, and I think that they can take a whole new perspective now. One that comes to mind is called A Life in Good Taste. It's a designer in Birmingham, Alabama, and it just shows her home and how she likes to decorate. And that's like a quintessential coffee table book.

But then I also think recently I've been reading Good Things by Samin Nosrat, who wrote Salt Fat Acid Heat. She has this new book out, Good Things, and it's just an account of good things and good recipes. I count that as a coffee table book even though it also obviously is a cookbook and is food writing in its nature. But it looks beautiful out on the table. It's fun to pick up and put back down. I just feel like it brings about warmth and conversation, and that's kind of what I look for when I see it. I almost always have a stack of at least three or four on our coffee table at any time.

[00:09:21] ANNE: Ooh, those are good qualifiers. Warmth and conversation.

JACQUELYN: Yeah.

ANNE: As I imagine what you might have in mind by underrated, I'm thinking about how... you know how readers talk about how certain things aren't real books? Like they look like a book but it's not a real book.

JACQUELYN: Totally.

ANNE: Is that something that people often spuriously apply to coffee table books?

JACQUELYN: 100%. In fact-

ANNE: Like not the kind of book like, "Can I count that in my book journal?"

JACQUELYN: No, literally. In fact, that's an internal conversation I've had with myself is like, "Should I put this down as a book that I've read?" And then I'm like, "Of course. I read the book. Of course it belongs in my shelved book reads." But it's funny because it's different than a quintessential sit down and read a story. But this is every bit of a book as much as something I've picked up from the local bookstore or library.

[00:10:22] And so I think that's what makes them underrated. At least for me, they're just so readable. I just so enjoy sitting down with them, whether it's flipping through photos or, you know, reading the small accounts throughout the book. It kind of depends on who the author is and what they're writing about. But there's just so much that can be gleaned. I feel like I learn so much from my version of a coffee table book, and that just brings me a lot of joy.

ANNE: All right. I'll go first. I'd love to hear a recent favorite, or two or three. I'm thinking about what you said about what makes a coffee table book and why you enjoy them in your reading life and in your space. The most recent one that I acquired is called Art for Everyone, and it's about "don't be scared. You can put art on your walls at home. Here's how."

[00:11:20] This is a book that really benefits from the photography-heavy, lots of visuals format. That isn't characteristic of every single coffee table book, but I know it's where a lot of people's minds go when they think about that kind of book. But it's sitting on one of my coffee tables right now. The regular visitors to our home, who always just kind of see what's around in the house when they come over, have all sat down on the sofa and looked at it and gone, "Ooh, what's this?" And just reached for it and popped it open and...

JACQUELYN: Yes.

ANNE: It's brought me joy. And it makes me want to paint and hang stuff on every wall in my house. But that's not the experience with, you know, most coffee table books.

JACQUELYN: Yeah. No. That's so funny that you say that because I feel like that's the mark of a good coffee table book to me is when friends and family will come over and yeah, they'll gravitate over to the coffee table, and they're like, "What's this?" And they start looking through it. And I can always tell if one isn't grasping someone's attention, they're obviously not going to go for it. But then the ones that get a lot of attention are just always fun to me.

[00:12:29] Like one in particular I have out right now is called A Kitchen in Italy, and it's just this beautiful account. It is a cookbook, but the photos in it are so beautiful and so masterful. It's the story of a kitchen in Italy and what that looks like. Certainly, I might cook from it at some point. I love to cook. I love to be in the kitchen. But mostly I keep it out because it's just so beautiful and fun to read and a fun escape. And so I feel like when a coffee table book can fit into all those categories, that's when you know it's a fun one. But friends love flipping through that one, just because we're all like, "Don't we all just want to go to Italy?"

ANNE: Oh, I love a cookbook on the coffee table. I mean, not just any cookbook, but something that's pretty, that has a lot of stories, even if they're short. Because like you said, you can pop it open into the middle, just kind of see what's there, enjoy it a little bit, put it back, walk away, it doesn't hurt anything. I love that.

Jacquelyn, do you have any other favorites you'd like to share?

[00:13:36] JACQUELYN: There's two that come to mind. One is called Welcome Home by Myquillyn Smith. She has several really lovely books. This one in particular is a favorite of mine because it goes through the seasons of your home with actual seasons throughout the year. And so she talks about cultivating your home in a way that follows the seasons of the calendar.

I just find myself at the beginning of each season, I just always return to her book. In fact, I keep it out most all year because I love to just remind myself like, oh yeah, okay, this season is turning. Here in Richmond, Virginia, we have a typical four season calendar year and really experience fall, winter, spring, and summer. So I just love turning back to her book to say, okay, what does feel like the ushering in a fall and what is the vibrancy of spring? That one is really fun and just beautiful. Really, really well done. I enjoy it.

ANNE: Practical inspiration.

[00:14:53] JACQUELYN: Yes, exactly. Very practical, which I love. Then the other one that I'm enjoying is A Life in Good Taste by a designer in Birmingham, Alabama. Her home is just really beautiful, but she has kids and a life. Again, it feels very practical, but also special, like the way she decorates her home. It's a dream. There's color and pattern. It feels Southern, but it also feels very modern. She just has really good taste, and I just think she marries that really well. It's fun to look through.

And as a funny aside, that one... it's a beautiful book, but it always captures my eye because the pages of the book around the outside are blue, the way the rest of the book is. And so it just looks so pretty, whether you have it spine out or pages out. It always catches my eye. It's different than other books I have.

ANNE: I will say, I value a beautiful cover more highly when it's laying face up on display, basically.

JACQUELYN: I know, I know. The old adage of don't judge a book by its cover. But I do love a beautiful cover. I will be taken by a cover just to see what's inside for sure.

[00:16:18] ANNE: All right, Jacquelyn, what prompted you to come to What Should I Read Next? in this season?

JACQUELYN: I feel like... I don't know if my reading taste has changed or if maybe what I'm looking for from reading is changing. I'd be curious your thoughts about that. Truly, I've listened to your podcast for a long time, many years, and I do feel like I've started to hone in what I like, what I don't like. And I'm actually finding the more I hone that in, the more books I'm interested in. And I give myself more freedom to say, "Actually, I think this is a very good book. It's just not the right book for me, or it's not the right time for this book."

I feel like that has been coming up a lot, especially in this season where I'll start to read something and I'm like, "Okay, this kind of fits my typical genre, typical what I'm looking for, but it's just not resonating right now."

[00:17:24] As I said, we're in a busy season of life, things are full, and so I feel like my reading time is so sacred that I'm like, I really just want to read what I know I'm going to love and don't want to waste my time with filler or anything like that. But also, we've talked about this, and I know other folks on the podcast have said this too. Sometimes you need a little palate cleanser. Sometimes you need something that you know is easy and will be a great page-turner to kind of get you on to the next book and the next thing.

And so I think I'm trying to kind of figure that out right now. I think I've had several books that I'm like, "I think that just missed the mark a little bit, but I can't figure out why." Like I said, I'd be curious to hear your thoughts about that. So that's coming to mind.

[00:18:22] Then another thing that's kind of been plaguing my brain in the background, so much of my day outside of work can be like puttering around the house or taking long walks as a family. We love to put in our earbuds and listen to things all together. But I really haven't dived that much into audiobooks. I feel like every time I want to start an audiobook, I just can't get into it. And I am such a visual person. I love to hold a book or love to read on my Kindle. So I feel like an audiobook would be great. Like there's plenty of opportunity for me to listen to something, but I feel like I haven't quite found something that really captures my interest on audio. I feel like it's easy to get distracted and then find myself then turning to more of a podcast or something quicker and easier to kind of digest in a single sitting.

[00:19:27] ANNE: Okay. I will keep that in mind as we go along. As we think about what kind of books are making your reading time feel worthwhile right now, from the guts, how are you hoping to feel at the end of the next book you finish?

JACQUELYN: I love to feel a sense of resolve, a sense of completion. I love when something just makes you feel really good, regardless of whether it's a happy ending or, you know, tied with a bow at the end. More so just feeling like, oh, that was really good. I love when a book makes me think, but I also love when a book just ends on a really solid note and you just feel like, okay, that's exactly what I was looking for right now. Which feels so meta and hard to put my finger on because it's hard to know that when you pick up a book.

ANNE: It's a good place to start.

[00:20:29] JACQUELYN: I don't know. I don't know how that's going to go. But yeah, I love to feel really captivated and like I spent really good time with the characters and got to know them and got to know their story.

ANNE: Jacquelyn, we have enticing stuff to explore here. I'm excited. Thank you for trusting me with these delicate matters in your reading life. I think next, talking about what you love and don't, would be helpful to move our process forward. Does that sound like we're on a factory line? I didn't mean it like that.

JACQUELYN: I'm here for it. I'm here for the process. I love it. I love it.

ANNE: All right. Well, you know how this works. You brought three books you love, one you don't, and we'll hear about what you've been reading lately, and then we'll see where that leads us. How did you choose these?

[00:21:24] JACQUELYN: Yeah, I know. Of course, the question “three books you love and one you don't”, I really just tried to go with my gut and really tried not to think about it too much. I didn't even look at my bookshelf. I was like, okay, what are three books that just always stand out to me?

The first that I picked is The Thursday Murder Club by Richard Osman. It's so beloved to me. And I think what is special about it to me was it was the right book at the right time. I know we talk about that a lot. I read this during a particularly grief-ridden season, and I just feel like the characters in The Thursday Murder Club series, a little bit about it is... essentially, it's this group of people at a retirement, assisted living community and they solve murders.

[00:22:25] But I think it's more than just solving murders. It's about friendship. It's about their lives. It's about loneliness. It's about aging. There's so much underneath it. I just love this book. I just felt so connected to the characters. Wanted to know what was going to happen next. And thank goodness this is going on, I believe, a six-book series. I've read all of them. But this first one in particular is just special I think because of the time in which it met me. But I also just love it narrates from different viewpoints, which I always enjoy. So yeah, this is a special one. I'm glad for it.

ANNE: I'm glad it stands out. That's The Thursday Murder Club. What's the second book you love?

[00:23:21] JACQUELYN: The second one I love is The Sweet Spot by Amy Poeppel. This one's just fun. I remember exactly where I was when I started reading it. I was reading it on a beach vacation. It's not like a typical beach read, but it read so well at the beach because this book is kind of chaotic. There's a lot of moving parts. And also it's kind of a book where nothing really happens. It more just talks about their life and their relationships and their friendships. I loved that about this book.

It was so readable. It felt just comforting and fun, but also real. It felt like I was reading something that my friend was sharing with me about her life. It's a fun one. And I've read others of Amy's as well. I read Far and Away this fall. That has a very similar feel to it where it's like there is this overarching story and things are happening, but it's a lot about the people and what they're thinking about and going through. I just enjoyed that about this one.

[00:24:33] ANNE: Musical Chairs is my favorite of hers so far.

JACQUELYN: I haven't read Musical Chairs. I really want to.

ANNE: What did you say? Kind of chaotic?

JACQUELYN: Yeah. Is that one kind of chaotic?

ANNE: Mm-hmm. But also very warm. When she talked to us in Book Club, she talked about how she loves groups of threes. She thinks they're so interesting and dynamic and ever-shifting and lots of potential for alliances, but also like standoffs. Nothing resolves and it spins the plot forward. But it's fun and warm.

Her novels often have a strong intergenerational component, which people may not say, like, this is what I'm looking for, but it can still feel real good to read about. Like working intergenerational relationships, even when there's friction and lots of jokiness because of that friction and the gaps in understanding. It's just lots of fun.

[00:25:27] JACQUELYN: You hit the nail on the head. I love an intergenerational read with lots of different perspectives and viewpoints. That's very interesting.

ANNE: Okay. So, that was Amy Poeppel, The Sweet Spot. What did you choose for your final favorite?

JACQUELYN: My final favorite, again, this one is beloved. It's Save Me the Plums by Ruth Reichl. Ruth Reichl, by her trade, is a food critic, and also now as she has evolved in her career, a food writer over time. She's written many books. But this one in particular... this is her most recent, I think.

ANNE: Actually, is her most recent My Kitchen Year? Because we just had that coffee table conversation.

JACQUELYN: Oh, that's right. That's right. Yes, you're right. That one-

ANNE: And I was just thinking now, there's the cookbook coffee table book I really enjoyed. For all the coffee table book reasons. I'm not sure I made a single recipe, but gosh, I enjoyed reading about her food experiences.

[00:26:35] JACQUELYN: I mean, she has had such an interesting life. Save Me the Plums is particularly about her season with Gourmet Magazine.

ANNE: Yes. And My Kitchen Year is the aftermath. Like how I... I don't know if cope is the word Ruth Reichl would have used, but it was her processing moving on.

JACQUELYN: Well, I can imagine because, I mean, as you're reading this book, it's so compulsively readable for being a memoir. You know, memoir can be a little bit more thoughtful, reflective. You know, you're reading about a literal person's life. But this read like a story. It spanned a huge chunk of her life and clearly left an impact on her.

Also, sadly, Gourmet Magazine isn't around anymore. And that's like part of the story, spoiler, that how she kind of came to end that particular chapter that I just... I love her. I think she writes with so much candor and very frank in her thoughts.

[00:27:49] There's a few recipes and things sprinkled throughout, but what I love most about this one is just hearing her perspective and how she talks about food and people and how those two things come together.

My second favorite runner-up to this one, I love Garlic and Sapphires, which talks more about her experience as a food critic, which is just fun and interesting. It feels like... I don't know if this is true because I haven't read all of her books, but it feels like she chooses a season of her life and writes about that in her book. And I love that. I feel like you get such a telescope picture into what was happening during that particular time, which is really fun.

ANNE: So I'm hearing that there is more Ruth Reichl for you if you're looking to seek out that experience.

JACQUELYN: Yeah.

ANNE: Save Me the Plums is also... I mean, it's almost a postmortem, but it's very much how the industry worked, how the industry shifted. Do you enjoy how the sausage is made stuff? Do you enjoy it?

[00:28:57] JACQUELYN: Yes, I do. In fact, I feel like that plays into a lot of books when I think about books that I've loved. I love when something gets kind of nitty-gritty and niche and kind of captures my attention. Food writing for sure, just because I love cooking, I love being in the kitchen. And so anything that talks about someone's perspective in that is really, really fun for me.

ANNE: The details make it feel real?

JACQUELYN: Yes, totally.

ANNE: Make it feel true?

JACQUELYN: Like I'm there with them. Yeah.

ANNE: Okay. That was Save Me the Plums by Ruth Reichl. Jacquelyn, tell me about a book that wasn't for you.

JACQUELYN: This was hard because I decided to go with a book that I actually... when I step back, this is such a well-done book. It's The God of the Woods by Liz Moore. It's such a well-done book. It is captivating. It's sweeping. You feel like you're there with the characters.

[00:30:08] But I picked this one as one that was not for me because it took me... I vividly remember — I read it this past year — it took me almost a month and a half to pick up another book afterwards because of the way it left me feeling. I was really sad by this book. There were so many parts to it that were just on such a guttural level. I don't want to share too much because I don't want to give it away if somebody hasn't read it, but there are threads in that book of people's story that are so raw and real, it just made me really sad. I just couldn't stop thinking about them, which is also maybe the mark of a really good book, right? But when I am reading something, like I said, I want to feel resolved. And I didn't feel resolved with that one. I kept having questions about the girl in the woods, and her family, and the people in her life. It was a tough one. It was a tough one for me.

[00:31:15] ANNE: I heard you say captivating, sweeping, that it had a real sense of immediacy. And also, it was not the emotional experience that, I mean, was really welcome at that moment in time.

JACQUELYN: Yeah, yeah, exactly. I think-

ANNE: So it was too good. Liz Moore was too good.

JACQUELYN: Yes, yes, exactly. It felt like a dagger, for sure.

ANNE: You're not looking for daggers.

JACQUELYN: No.

ANNE: So people who say the highest praise is I was curled up in a fetal position on the floor, not you.

JACQUELYN: That's not what I'm looking for. I want something with depth. I want to have a relationship with the book, but yeah, curled up in a fetal position is maybe not the direction I would go in for my reading.

ANNE: Okay. This is really helpful. Jacquelyn, what have you been reading lately?

[00:32:11] JACQUELYN: Oh my gosh, I just recently finished The Shampoo Effect, which I loved. I loved. I almost picked it as one of my three.

ANNE: Okay. This helps because that's maybe a little snarkier than I might have thought you'd enjoy.

JACQUELYN: Totally. And it's funny because I liked it for that reason. I felt like it was so relatable. My life experience is different from the characters in the book, but everything, truly every character, said or felt something that I was, "I have felt that before. I understand that." And I liked the relatability of it and that it was a little bit, yeah, not... I feel like edgy is the wrong word. Snarky is actually what you said is-

ANNE: I mean, it's real sharp.

JACQUELYN: Yeah, it's really sharp.

ANNE: Okay, for anyone who's read this and can laugh along with me, I mean, Budweiser Manor cracked me up every time.

JACQUELYN: Oh.

ANNE: Every time.

[00:33:05] JACQUELYN: Every time. The other part... this is not giving away any part of the story, but there's this one part where one of the characters is like, "Ugh, what kind of idiot lets their kid share a brush at school and get lice?" There's a lice breakout in her kid's classroom, and then her kids come home and they have lice, and she is mortified. And it's like how many times have we all said that where we're like, "Oh, gosh... come on, and then literally that exact thing happens to us?" And you're like, "Who am I? Who am I to say that?" There was just so many moments like that that I just loved. I thought it was so funny and so good.

And then I'm so, so close to being done with Into the Blue, which is another new release. Again, I'm 80% done, so I don't know how it's going to end, but it's a little bit making me feel like I'm going to end in the fetal position, and I'm not sure how I feel about it.

ANNE: Is this Emma Brodie?

JACQUELYN: Yes, Emma Brodie.

ANNE: Okay. Oh, well, I haven't read this. No predictions. Let us know how it goes.

[00:34:08] JACQUELYN: Oh my gosh, yeah. Again, it's very well done. Very well done.

ANNE: Okay. Jacquelyn, what are you looking for in your reading life right now? The alternate question is would you like this to be different, if that evokes more of what is rising to the top for you during this conversation?

JACQUELYN: Yeah. Yeah. I really want a book that I just can't put down. I think that's actually what I loved about The Shampoo Effect. I just couldn't put it down. Again, it's one of those books where it's like there are things happening in the story, but it's not like a thrilling page-turner where it's very plotty. The way I like to describe it is compulsively readable. I just wanted to know what was going to happen with the characters and their lives. I want more of that. I love the feeling of staying up too late because I couldn't put down a book. I want more of that right now, I think.

[00:35:15] ANNE: I'm thinking about what you said about your reading taste changing, or what you're looking for has changed, but you can't put your finger on it. And you said in your submission that your usual go-to genres like cozy mysteries, a fun rom-com, a thoughtful memoir, are not hitting the spot. So as I hear you speak about your favorites, the picture that emerges is you like warmth and candor. Several of these books have intergenerational elements. The relationships are important here. Finding a calling, finding some kind of meaning is important here.

The Thursday Murder Club... lots of people forget this when they're sitting with the emotional feel of the ending, but it goes some dark places.

JACQUELYN: It does, yeah.

ANNE: But it didn't leave you there.

JACQUELYN: Yep.

ANNE: Which I think is perhaps different from God of the Woods.

[00:36:09] JACQUELYN: Yes. That's such a great call-out. I think we kind of get left in the woods with that proverbial darkness. Whereas, yeah, Thursday Murder Club will kind of... I mean, Richard Osman's writing is so poignant. He will say in like one sentence maybe what God of the Woods said in like a lot of chapters, if that makes sense.

ANNE: I wonder if you'd like Heft by Liz Moore. Goes hard places, leaves you in a different place.

JACQUELYN: Heft?

ANNE: Or even The Unseen World. If you enjoyed her writing, there are other books. Not longer either, though.

JACQUELYN: Yeah, because I thought she was, I mean, truly so well done. Again, that's why I feel bad saying it wasn't what I was looking for, but maybe just the story. Maybe it's just the story.

ANNE: Maybe. But that's just a little aside. But these books are gentle even in the hard things.

JACQUELYN: Yeah, yeah.

[00:37:08] ANNE: But then you brought Shampoo Effect in. One of these things is not like the others, Jacquelyn.

JACQUELYN: Well, when I think about the span of my reading life, one of the books that brought me back to reading, which sounds so funny because this wasn't that long ago, I should say, it brought me back to the true love and enjoyment of reading was Beach Read by Emily Henry. And I know so many people say they loved that book, but what I loved about that one was kind of the sarcastic snarkiness of it, but so relatable, so much fun, warmth, depth. That forever is marked as a book that... again, like, place and time and I really needed it at that time, I think. It's confusing because it kinda also fits in that rom-com category, but is a little bit more thoughtful.

ANNE: So both those books, especially The Shampoo Effect, is... I think I said sharp.

JACQUELYN: Yeah.

[00:38:14] ANNE: But also, how about the reader is in on the joke? It doesn't feel malicious.

JACQUELYN: Yes, exactly. Exactly. You're not backing anybody into a corner. It's not mean, but it's like, ugh, gosh, yeah. We've all been there.

ANNE: Is it a little mean sometimes? I mean, it's a little like, ooh, really?

JACQUELYN: Yeah.

ANNE: Like, did she really choose that path? Did she really say that thing?

JACQUELYN: Yes. Yes.

ANNE: But also, I feel like Jenny Jackson is kinda winking at it. Like, isn't this funny? Isn't this clever?

JACQUELYN: Totally. It's cheeky.

ANNE: Do you see the humor in people's outlandish behavior?

JACQUELYN: Yes, exactly. Exactly.

ANNE: What The Shampoo Effect really does is it expands your options and I think makes them more interesting. So, not sad about that outlier. We just gotta figure out a way to make it part of the picture. Okay, so your reading taste has changed. I'm wondering if anything that we've talked about so far has got your brain working.

[00:39:16] JACQUELYN: Totally. I think what keeps coming to mind is maybe I gravitate towards things I... like are a shoo-in to a typical cozy mystery rom-com. Pretty much if I sit down with one of those, it's going to be a good reading experience. I enjoy them. But maybe in this particular season what I need more of is something that I can really sink my teeth into something that is more resonant, something that is more relational and gripping. I think I sometimes don't know how to find those, because it's hard to look on, you know, the book jacket or hear from someone if I think that might fit the bill.

ANNE: Do you think you also like a portrayal of a world? Like, Save Me the Plums is the world of Gourmet Magazine. The Sweet Spot, you have this... I'm a Kentucky girl who doesn't know how to talk about New York City. But you have this network of relationships and several little hubs.

JACQUELYN: Yes.

[00:40:29] ANNE: Like, there's the school, and The Sweet Spot is a bar, and I think there's a pottery studio in Brooklyn. But it's a world. The Thursday Murder Club, you have your meeting room at the assisted care facility, or it's been a long time since I read that book, where the Thursday Murder Club gathers, and you have the outlying community where the crime takes place. God of the Woods, it is a world. The Shampoo Effect, this tight-knit community. Now I'm just hammering at it now, but do you enjoy that?

JACQUELYN: Yes, totally. I think you're totally hitting the nail on the head with that, that I love being immersed into place and time, however that ends up looking.

ANNE: Okay. Talk to me about food writing.

JACQUELYN: It just always appeals, no matter who is writing it, what it's about, whether it's a gritty, like Anthony Bourdain, or more specific, like Ruth Reichl. Another good one that I read several years back was Finding Freedom by Erin French. That one is more of, like, a personal story of her as a chef, less about the food, more about her as a person.

[00:41:40] I just love all of it. I love hearing how food impacts people and what that could mean for their life, whether they're a chef or just a regular person who enjoys it.

ANNE: I'm ready. Are you ready to do this?

JACQUELYN: I'm excited.

ANNE: Okay. This is going to be learn by trial and error. All right, Jacquelyn, you enjoyed The Thursday Murder Club by Richard Osman, The Sweet Spot by Amy Poeppel, and Save Me the Plums by Ruth Reichl. We decided The God of the Woods by Liz Moore was too well done. It was not for you because she crafted this very specific emotional, intellectual experience that was not for you when you were reading that book. And we don't want you to be put off reading for another month and a half.

And lately you've been reading...Well, we talked a lot about The Shampoo Effect by Jenny Jackson. You mentioned the coffee table book, Good Things by Samin Nosrat. Oh, you're about to finish Into the Blue by Emma Brodie, and you're afraid it's going to leave you in a puddle on the floor. I don't believe those were your exact words.

[00:42:47] What stood out was perhaps you want this experience of emotional resonance, reading about relationships, but you're not sure how to filter for that when you're looking. You love food writing. You love a strong sense of place. You love a portrait of a world. Can I try a few?

JACQUELYN: Yeah, totally.

ANNE: Okay. Now, I'm hoping you haven't read any of these so I can be the one to introduce you, but we'll find out. Have you read any Elizabeth Acevedo?

JACQUELYN: No, but I've heard you talk about her, and it's always been in the background. But no, I haven't actually picked up any of hers.

ANNE: Okay. I am not the boss of you, but I am... I want to say giddy about the possibility for a reading experience where you listen to specifically... I mean, her books are great. She's got a new one coming out. She's amazing. I'll follow her anywhere. But With the Fire on High is the book for you.

[00:43:47] It came out in 2019. It is not a novel in verse, because she's written several, and some readers think she's only written that, though she might describe herself as a poet first, which means she knows how to make the words fall in a pleasing place.

She reads her own work. Her performa... I mean, you feel like... I've wondered how much trust is a factor for you. But Elizabeth Acevedo inspires readerly trust, that I'm not sure where this is going, but I trust you to take me there. And she's gifted at writing about hard things, hard truths, hard relationships in a way that still feels accessible and gentle because she... I haven't even told you about her protagonist, but the side characters in an Elizabeth Acevedo novel, I mean, they have presence and personality, and they bring something specific to the story that helps the protagonist, but also feels real good and supportive to the reader.

[00:44:48] So With the Fire on High is this story about a teenage single mother that subverts every expectation the reader has or that culture has delivered or you read about in the news or... Our protagonist is Emoni. She's 17. She's always been told she has a magical touch in the kitchen, and she wants to be a chef, which feels really inaccessible in a lot of ways, especially she doesn't have the time or money to get trained, even though her school has this new culinary arts class that they might even be going to Spain together, and she wants to do this so badly.

But she's a 17-year-old single mother, and even though she has amazing friends, and just her abuela is so supportive and wonderful and you are going to want to, like, I don't know, carry her around with you until the end of time and have her tell you what to do and give you pep talks when you need it, it's a lot.

[00:45:41] So she's not sure how she's going to be able to work part-time and provide for her child, and pay for this class, and learn to be a chef, but this is an Elizabeth Acevedo novel, and she is going to figure it out. She is Emoni. I believe all Acevedo's novels are in the first person. But she's going to walk you through the recipes that she enjoys making and creating. She's going to give you some real talk about what's hard and also what's really satisfying and what makes her feel like a good life is possible, even if she's dealing with custody issues, and trying to make ends meet, and not getting support she needs from some places, and budding teenage romance, even as a mom.

The way that these things are woven through the story... like the portrait of a world here is incredible. The author's narration does not hurt one bit. The settings are Philadelphia and also Spain, and you just get to sink into a world... Her novels are also not long, but they're immediately like you are in it with the protagonist, who's like, "Listen up. This is what's happening. Pay attention." How does this sound?

[00:46:56] JACQUELYN: Oh, I love what you said that you will trust Elizabeth Acevedo to take you there in the book. That's really standing out to me. That might not know it's happening, but I love that it packs a punch. I think this one sounds really good, and of course, the food element and then the travel element. Yeah, it sounds really great. Excited about this one. Would you say it's also good on audio? Like, would it be worth trying that one on audio or reading it just like a regular book?

ANNE: Oh, when I say the way Elizabeth Acevedo tells you, I am picturing her speaking into your earbuds.

JACQUELYN: Yes. Okay.

ANNE: I mean, her voice on the page, great, but she reads her own work, and her audiobooks are fabulous. I mean, they're the kind of books that people say, "I don't say this often, but oh my gosh, listen to the audio. Don't read the print." People say that about this book.

JACQUELYN: Okay, that's really good to know.

[00:47:53] ANNE: Yes. Please, try this on audio and see how that goes. Readers have different audiobook styles. I mean, some people really love listening to fact and wouldn't dream of doing fiction on audio, and some are the reverse. I'm more the reverse. I like fiction and memoir myself. And that's just me, I don't know, how my brain works, I suppose. But see how it goes. See if this novel works for you.

JACQUELYN: Okay. I'm excited.

ANNE: I'm excited. I hope you try it. I can't wait to hear what you think. Okay. I'm so intrigued by exploring different kinds of food writing and how they can portray pictures of a world. I think often we think of food as being something that... being like a coffee table book. Yeah. Like warm and welcoming and inviting. But food can be more socially and emotionally and sometimes physically complex than that. Thinking about Piglet by Lottie Hazell or Lake Effect by Cynthia D'Aprix Sweeney. I don't believe those are the emotional reading experiences you're looking for right now, either one.

[00:49:00] But I'm wondering about The Reservation by Rebecca Kauffman. Do you know this book? It came out in February 2026.

JACQUELYN: No, I don't know it.

ANNE: This would not be on the table if you didn't enjoy The Shampoo Effect.

JACQUELYN: Okay, fun.

ANNE: It would be a little sharp. The setting of this book is the only fine dining spot in a Midwestern college town. The reservation of the title is a dinner reservation. A big reservation. Like an anticipated reservation. John Grisham is coming to campus, and everyone at the restaurant knows that he has dinner reservations at their restaurant that night, and everybody is excited in a different way, either because like, "Oh, steaks, I know my boss cares about this," or like, "Oh my gosh, I've read every one of his books."

[00:49:53] The characters feel a bunch of ways about this. The school booked a reservation, John Grisham is coming for dinner, and the restaurant is abuzz. But everything goes wrong all day long, beginning in the morning when the one character walks through the back door of the restaurant, opens the walk-in, and goes, "Where are the steaks? The steaks that we're supposed to be serving to John Grisham are missing."

You want a book that's relational. And I'm wondering if this could be frustrating or fascinating to you, because we rotate through the perspectives of, I believe, every person who works at the restaurant, from the newest hire to the owner, long-time bartender, newer pastry chef, we get everybody throughout the day. And so you see this web of relationships, but you're building a picture through the course of the novel. So over the course of a single day...

JACQUELYN: That sounds really good, yeah. You're getting different perspectives, yeah.

[00:51:03] ANNE: So you get everyone's individual perspectives on what's happening through the course of the day. We rotate through all the people who work at the restaurant. There's plenty of workplace drama on an ongoing basis, but also because of the missing steaks. You get backstories of different characters. Some of these people you are going to actively dislike. Like, the owner is terrible. You will feel bad for everybody working with her. But reading about them can still be really fun. There's, of course, food involved in the restaurant.

This book isn't really about John Grisham at all, but why is it so fun that he's referred to specifically by name, and they talk about his books? The specificity of it somehow is delightful. Now, there's a scene that involves a chef because it matters for the restaurant, but also for his own pleasure, makes a perfect crème brûlée at one moment. I think that might be very satisfying.

[00:52:02] I thought the ending was perfect. You can decide and see what you think. But this book that was often so messy I felt like ended in a place of peace and resolution. But you can read it and we discuss, if this sounds like a reading experience you might want to have. What do you think?

JACQUELYN: Oh my gosh, definitely. I'm totally intrigued by this one.

ANNE: This is not the place I would experiment with audio. I mean, you can make your own decisions, but this does not make me think like, "Oh, for sure, try it. Likely to succeed." I don't know about that.

JACQUELYN: That's good to know.

ANNE: Okay, Jacquelyne, I think it's worth mentioning that so many food memoirs are resonant about relationships, such good food writing, or portraits of a world. I wonder if Crying in H Mart is the kind of place you want to go right now. That's one of my favorites. So well done.

JACQUELYN: So well done.

ANNE: Maybe too good, depending.

[00:52:56] JACQUELYN: Yeah. Yeah. It's funny, I started that one a couple years ago, and I didn't finish it. Again, not because I didn't think it was good, but maybe it was just not the right book at the right time. But it did feel along the lines of... Again, I feel like I can't speak to it because I didn't finish it, but it felt very sad to me, and I wasn't ready for that at the time.

ANNE: Okay. Have you read any Bill Buford?

JACQUELYN: No.

ANNE: He wrote Heat about his experience in an Italian kitchen. It was everywhere briefly in maybe like 2015, 2016. That's for the readers who know. But his... I don't know if follow-up is the right word, but he wrote a memoir about his French experience that was published in 2020. It's called Dirt: Adventures in Lyon as a Chef-in-Training, Father, and Sleuth Looking for the Secret of French Cooking. Something I think might appeal here, or maybe I'm projecting, and I'm so sorry if I am, but you tell me, is he accidentally... I mean, he and his wife, who's a wine critic in her own right, he started as a journalist for The New Yorker. And then for an assignment, he worked in a kitchen in some fancy DC restaurant for a time and really did a major career pivot as a result of this.

[00:54:20] So he wrote Heat that was all about Italian cooking. And then he's married to a wine expert, and he decides, "You know, I'm on this path. I'm going to deepen my culinary training." And where do you go if you want to do that? Often the answer is France. So they move to France for six months with their twin three-year-old boys. So you can have your vicarious raising my kids in France experience.

And the plan was six months, but they stay for five years. And so much of this book is about living life in France. But also, he's there to deepen his skills as a chef, which means through this book you get these lush, vividly detailed accounts of these illustrious French kitchens, the culture that makes that food possible, the things that he does not know and has to learn. I listened to him on audio. I really enjoyed his audio narration. But I definitely skipped a few moments in his story of attending a pig slaughter, because they're going to make sausage.

JACQUELYN: Sure, sure.

[00:55:29] ANNE: He befriends the owner of a local bakery. The locals are like, "Who are you, American? We don't care to get to know you." But over time he's welcomed in and deepens relationships. He's got a strong sense of humor, insightful. He's like your tour guide on the ground, just giving you the lay of the land for the food and the city and the nation.

And then some of my favorite parts are what he learned when his kids went to school. What that experience was like, how different it was from anything they might have expected back in New York, and what it was like to live there. What it's like to go to dinner as a family of four when two of them are twin six-year-olds. How does that sound?

JACQUELYN: Oh, that sounds so much fun. I have a particular interest in France right now anyways from a food perspective. Julia Child's My Life in France is one of my very favorites, and so I like that this one is a little bit of a modern, not at all like a twist on her book, but just a modern take on it and somebody else's perspective on food and France and life there. I'm excited about this one. I think that would be fun, and especially maybe to try on audio.

[00:56:44] ANNE: I'm excited about that for you. Speaking of Julia Child and memoirs, Ann Mah has one following explicitly in Julia Child's footsteps called Mastering the Art of French Eating. Maybe-

JACQUELYN: Yes, that's right. I have it on my bookshelf. I've never picked it up, but it has been there, and I've looked at it many times. That would be a fun one to pick up.

ANNE: Okay. Jacquelyn, can I leave you with a book that feels squarely aligned with your three favorites?

JACQUELYN: Yes. Yeah, definitely.

ANNE: Okay. I am wondering about J. Ryan Stradal's The Lager Queen of Minnesota. Come to think of it, we haven't had a new book from him in a while. I think I'm going to look that up next and see if there's anything in the pipeline. But many authors know him from his debut, Kitchens of the Great Midwest. But in this one, his sophomore novel, I believe, it follows several generations of a Minnesota family as they work to wrest their way into the brewing industry.

[00:57:52] And it tears up the family for a time, and this huge rivalry ensues, which means you get to hear lots about the details of why one's beer is better than the other one's beer. But it's not going to end in a bad place. I hope that you will feel this is an author you can trust, that you'll feel like you're in good hands, that it will feel resonant and relational, and that you'll enjoy the places it takes you to. There's lots of humor throughout, lots of fun stories involving food, lots of bar snacks, and of course, there's the beer brewing as they work through figuring out how they're going to make the good stuff.

My favorite logline I've heard in this book is, "Grandma's brewing beer," which is definitely what this book is about. But even though there's plenty of tense moments, there are side characters to rescue our main characters when necessary, which really means the tone is persistently hopeful. And on audio, this is one to try. You have your authentic Midwestern accents.

JACQUELYN: Oh, the best.

[00:58:54] ANNE: I hope this feels like one that grabs you immediately, and then that you can sit back and enjoy hearing how the families are going to work things out interrelationally and also with their business.

JACQUELYN: Yeah. Okay, I'm excited about that one. The Lager Queen of Minnesota.

ANNE: That's the one.

JACQUELYN: Okay. That's fun.

ANNE: All right, Jacquelyn. Of the books we talked about today, With the Fire on High by Elizabeth Acevedo, The Reservation by Rebecca Kauffman, Dirt, the memoir by Bill Buford, and then we snuck in The Lager Queen of Minnesota by J. Ryan Stradal, are any of those sounding good? Are any of those sounding good on audio?

JACQUELYN: Yeah. I think I'm going to try The Lager Queen of Minnesota on audio. I'm excited about that one. I think I'm going to pick that one up next.

[00:59:49] ANNE: I'm glad to hear it. How are you feeling about things? You have any insight?

JACQUELYN: Great. Oh my gosh, I feel like what I'm taking away is particularly what you called out of, like, trusting the author. That is really, really standing out to me. And then the blend of kind of being dropped into a world and getting to spend time there with them. Those two things are really standing out to me. That feels helpful as I'm thinking about future books and what I'm looking for.

ANNE: Okay. Well, I'm glad it seems helpful now. I'm interested in hearing what happens when you proof test that against the reality of your reading life.

JACQUELYN: Yeah, for sure. For sure. Yeah, me too.

ANNE: I've enjoyed this so much.

JACQUELYN: Yeah, me too.

ANNE: Thank you so much for talking books with me today.

JACQUELYN: Yes, thank you so much, Anne. Appreciate it.

[01:00:46] ANNE: Hey, readers. I hope you enjoyed my conversation with Jacquelyn, and I'd love to hear what you think she should read next. Find the full list of titles we talked about today at whatshouldireadnextpodcast.com.

If you'd like to hear episodes like today's without the ads, we have a new option for you to do just that. Join us over on Patreon, where you can sign up to receive ad-free episodes directly to your podcast feed for just $5 a month. And if you'd like even more book talk in your life, bundle ad-free episodes with our weekly bonuses and live events in our Patreon all-inclusive tier. Find out more and see the options at patreon.com/whatshouldireadnext.

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[01:01:42] Thanks to the people who make this show happen. What Should I Read Next? is created each week by executive producer Will Bogel, Media production specialist Holly Wielkoszewski, social media manager and editor Leigh Kramer, community coordinator Brigid Misselhorn, community manager Shannan Malone, and our whole team at What Should I Read Next? and Modern Mrs. Darcy HQ. Plus the audio whizzes at Studio D Podcast Production.

Readers, that's it for this episode. Thanks so much for listening. And as Rainer Maria Rilke said, "Ah, how good it is to be among people who are reading." Happy reading, everyone.

AMY CZUBA: I have to tell you, like I said, I just went to the DMV in South Carolina to get my license, and it's been really, really hard not to drive myself immediately over to the local library and get a library card. I know I will do it, but I'm trying really hard not to do it right away.

ANNE BOGEL: Because why?

AMY: Well, because then I'll be back in the problem of getting all the library books.

ANNE: Hey readers, I'm Anne Bogel, and this is What Should I Read Next?. Welcome to the show that's dedicated to answering the question that plagues every reader, what should I read next? We don't get bossy on this show. What we will do here is give you the information you need to choose your next read. Every week we'll talk all things books and reading, and do a little literary matchmaking with one guest.

[00:00:54] Readers, we are airing this conversation on September 1st, which means fall is nearly here, and that means one thing at What Should I Read Next? HQ. It is almost time for our Fall Book Preview. Our eighth annual fall preview releases on Thursday, September 17th to members of Modern Mrs. Darcy Book Club and our Patreon all-inclusive and bonuses and events tiers, plus our à la carte ticket holders.

Once again, our Fall Book Preview experience includes our 12-page digital PDF lookbook and an invitation to our live unboxing event happening at 8:00 p.m. Eastern Time that night, September 17th, plus our unboxing video recording. This year we are also offering a printed, delivered by snail mail lookbook that is available as an add-on to your Fall Book Preview experience order or as a standalone purchase.

[00:01:43] This year's lookbook is different from past editions in two big ways. Maybe three ways, actually. The first is that to a greater extent than in any of our previous spring and fall previews, I wanted this year's lookbook to stand alone and be useful apart from unboxing. And unboxing is fabulous and useful and will do great things for your fall reading life, and I hope you will come. But fall is busy, and if you don't feel like you have time for that, get the lookbook. It's great. It's 6 by 9 inches, 12 pages. It has an inky, kinda hand-stamped, zine-inspired, pleasantly packed with readerly goodness kinda feel, and it's more than a list of titles. I clearly lay out the four and five-star reads I've already enjoyed for the season to come.

And I gotta tell you, this section is a lot bigger than I initially thought it would be before I started reading from the just astounding selections that are on offer this fall. Plus, in the lookbook, there are dozens more of my most anticipated titles and short descriptions, and I do mean short, about each one of them. My team chimes in in our lookbook with their most anticipated fall releases, plus backlist favorites that feel just right for fall. You are going to want to tuck this lookbook in your journal, take it to the library and bookstore, or bring it to coffee with a friend so you can talk about great fall books.

[00:02:58] Now, this year, from the beginning, I also prioritized designing this little lookbook in a way that we could deliver a professionally printed, genuinely useful, readerly, delightful little zine kind of lookbook straight to your mailbox for right about 10 bucks, including shipping. And we did it. I hope the low cost makes it easy to say yes to our lookbook this year.

Mark your calendars, get your à la carte ticket, or if you're not yet a member of one of our communities, sign up now and enjoy our original Fall Book Preview experience as an included perk. Talked a lot about the lookbook in the past couple minutes because that's so different this year, but the full Fall Book Preview experience is worth taking part in, and I hope you will. Sign up now, place your order, or just get more information at modernmrsdarcy.com/fbp for Fall Book Preview. That's modernmrsdarcy.com/fbp.

[00:03:52] Readers, today's guest wrote into our submissions page with a plea we could not say no to. Amy Czuba is recently retired. Not too long ago, she wrapped up her career as a global HR leader, then said goodbye to Massachusetts after living there for nearly 40 years and moved south to Charleston, South Carolina, where she's now enjoying soaking up the history of her new hometown.

She enjoys pairing an active reading life with being active outside, getting out to walk, play golf, and tennis. As you'll hear, she is excited to have more time to read in retirement. She wants to find good books and, in particular, long books that she can really sink into, but her library holds keep wreaking havoc with her well-laid plans.

Amy is here today seeking ideas for those long books that she's craving. She would especially enjoy a book that teaches her about a topic she might not otherwise learn about. Amy also has a goal to read more books from her as-yet-unread pile of titles that she already owns.

[00:04:51] This is really important to her, and she has already identified a major obstacle in making this happen. She cannot resist a shiny new library book that's available for checkout at her local branch. Amy wants to know if I can save her from her library holds. Amy, I hope so. I have ideas. We will see what she thinks. Readers, let's get to it.

Amy, welcome to the show.

AMY: Thank you so much, Anne. I am super-duper excited about being here, and probably still having heart palpitations from that email I got.

ANNE: Well, I'm excited you're excited. Thanks for coming on.

AMY: My pleasure.

ANNE: Amy, we'd like to start by giving our readers a glimpse of who you are. Can you tell us a little about yourself?

AMY: Sure. So I'm calling from Charleston, South Carolina. My husband Steve and I just recently moved here a few weeks ago, after living in Massachusetts for 40 years, so that was a big move for us. But the other recent big thing for me is I just recently retired, couple of months ago. Retired. I worked at a large global technology firm. I used to say I'm the least technical person working at a technology firm.

[00:05:59] I was a director of HR. I had a global team of HR chat reps that I managed. Really super fun job. I miss the people a lot. But one fun fact about that is that I took your podcast format, and I used it for my quarterly check-ins and year-end annual performance reviews. So the format that I used was, tell me three things that went well, one thing then that didn't, and what you've been working on lately for your development. And it was just such a great format to kinda kick off those conversations and kinda hear from people.

ANNE: Ooh. Well, I love that. Thank you.

AMY: You're welcome. I just gave credit in my meetings. I'm like, "You guys know I got this from a podcast that I listen to." And so it was always fun.

When I'm not reading, I enjoy staying active. I like to go for walks, maybe jump on my Peloton bike. My husband and I both golf. He is a little bit better. I'm pretty terrible at it, but I do enjoy it. Play a little tennis. Anything to kinda just keep moving.

[00:06:56] We also recently learned how to play mahjong, which is, you know, sweeping the nation by storm, I think, and that's been a lotta fun. I personally love going on historical tours, so Charleston has been a great city to move to for that. Of course, New England was great, living in Massachusetts all that time. And then, you know, we also just enjoy going to the beach with a great book. That's very fun as well.

Then also, as a family, we love Disney, and we tend to go about once a year, and I always bring, or not always, but I have been known to bring a book in my backpack into the park so that I have something to read while we're standing in line, or while I'm waiting for the rest of the family to get off a ride that I don't like to go on anymore. So always have a book with me, for sure.

ANNE: I mean, I believe that's a rule many of our listeners live by.

AMY: Absolutely.

ANNE: Now, Amy, this is broad on purpose. Would you tell us about your reading life?

[00:07:52] AMY: Sure. I tend to read about 50 books a year. I don't watch a lot of TV, so that gives me time to read. I love to read every night before I go to bed, and I'll sneak it in throughout the day whenever I have a few extra minutes. Like I mentioned, I try not to go anywhere without a book, although the other day we went to the DMV to register our cars and get our new licenses, and I was so wrapped up, Anne, with all of the paperwork that we needed, that I left my book on the counter of our kitchen. Luckily the wait wasn't too long, but as I was driving over there, I'm like, "Oh, shoot, I forgot my book."

ANNE: I think I read half a book the last time I was at the DMV.

AMY: I believe that.

ANNE: I'm glad it wasn't too bad.

AMY: I believe that. And the thing is is I like a hardcover book, so I'm not going to pull up a book on my phone. I don't even use my Kindle anymore really for the most part. I like the actual book. I do like audiobooks too. I mean, love audiobooks. I've read some of my favorite books on audio, but I always listened while I was commuting to work, and so to be honest, I really haven't listened to an audiobook since I retired, so I'm a little sad about that.

[00:08:55] The types of books that I love to read, like my go-to genre has always been historical fiction. That's my favorite. But I really love narrative nonfiction. I like literary fiction. I love biographies and memoirs. And when I want to mix things up or get like a palate cleanser, I love a good mystery or a crime thriller. I feel like those are kinda my comfort reads. When I need to mix something up, I'll go back to a series with the same characters that I just love having them solve another mystery. And I'm the type of reader I don't try and figure out the mystery, so I'm always surprised at the end, which makes it great.

I'm in a couple of book clubs so I tend to end up reading maybe some books that I wouldn't normally choose, and that's always good. I really have to have my books grounded in reality. I don't like any kind of sci-fi or fantasy or magical realism and that type of thing. And I have tried. I mean, like, my husband loves sci-fi and fantasy, and he's tried to get me to read some of those books, and they're just not for me.

[00:09:53] Now, the only exception to that is I recently read Hail Mary on audio, and I absolutely loved it. But the reason why I loved it was because of the characters, not so much the science and all that kind of stuff.

Romance will fill the spot once in a blue moon. I generally don't like it because I find it's just too fluffy, and obviously it's predictable. But, you know, every once in a while it will hit the spot. Bookstores, love going into a bookstore. I can't go into one without buying at least something. But I'm really addicted to my library. I mean, I just walk into a library and think, "Oh my gosh, look at all these free books."

And when I hear about a book that I want to read, I end up just immediately going to my library app and requesting it. And then all of the library books come in at the same time, and I'm walking out of the library with a stack of books and coming into the house, and my husband's looking at me like, "What are you doing?" I'm like, "They all came in at the same time. I can't help it."

[00:10:51] My mom just said to me this morning, "I think the Franklin Library is going to go out of business since you moved." And I said, "That is not true." But I do really enjoy the library and getting the books. I have to tell you, like I said, I just went to the DMV in South Carolina to get my license, and it's been really, really hard not to drive myself immediately over to the local library and get a library card. I know I will do it, but I'm trying really hard not to do it right away.

ANNE: Because why?

AMY: Well, because then I'll be back in the problem of getting all the library books. And I have so many boxes of books here, Anne, that we are unpacking. I've gotten a few of them unpacked. But, like, all these books that I own that I would like to read, and I have not to get to them because I'm always reading the library books. It's a problem.

ANNE: Amy, I think we should tell our listeners that the headline on your submission was, "Please save me from my library holds."

AMY: Yes.

[00:11:51] ANNE: Your relationship with your library sounds amazing, except it seems... I'm imagining that it's not delivering the reading life you want, the reading experiences you want. Is what's the opportunity cost here the right question?

AMY: Yes.

ANNE: Tell me what I need to know.

AMY: Okay, so here's the way my brain thinks. When I go into a bookstore and I'm going to purchase a book, I want to get the very best book I think I'm going to love, that I'm going to pass off to my friends. And so I buy what I think are going to be the top five-star reads. I'm buying those in person, and now they're on my bookshelf. When I think of the library, I'm like, "Oh, well, there's no harm, no foul. If I don't like the book, I'll just request it, and if it's not great, that's fine, because I didn't pay for it."

So what ends up happening is, a lot of times I'm requesting books from the library that, ah, those sound pretty good, but maybe they don't sound amazing. And so I get a lot of pretty good books from the library, but meanwhile, some of the books that I think are going to be the best sit on my bookshelf unread. So it's kind of a mixed bag. I mean, sometimes I get amazing books from the library. And actually, some of the very best books I've gotten from the library, and now I'm sad that they're not on my actual bookshelf. So it's a mixed bag of problems.

[00:13:05] ANNE: Amy, I did notice that when you described what you love about the library, like you walk in, you see what you want, you take it home, I did notice that when you hear about a book you want to read, you request it immediately. When you walk in, you grab what looks good. This sounds so much fun. And also, it sounds like there's not a lot of filter in place. Like, you may more carefully filter... I mean, you just said what you get in the bookstore.

AMY: Mm-hmm.

ANNE: All right. Amy, this is kind of weird for me, but I'm thinking of a clothing shopping analogy. I don't like to clothing-shop. I really like to shop for books. But I'm thinking how when I'm going through the items on the sales floor, there's a lot of stuff that looks like it could be promising, but the next step is I take it into the dressing room and I evaluate it and see if it fits and see if it works, and I take home a fraction, if anything, of what I walked into the dressing room with.

[00:13:57] And I wonder if this is kind of the difference between shopping at the bookstore, where perhaps you're, like, going into the dressing room and vetting them a little more carefully versus requesting things or picking things up at the library where you're like, "Oh, that looks good. That looks good." I guess your dressing room is at home when it comes to the library.

AMY: Yes. I mean-

ANNE: So at some point you have to filter.

AMY: Exactly. Yeah. And I'm filtering really carefully at the bookstore because I'm going to pay money for them, right? You want to make sure it's really, really good, something that I've wanted for a while, that I've heard about for a while. And yeah, with the library books... and you never know when they're going to come in, so it's always a surprise.

You might get something that's great, or you might get something that's marginal, or something's like, "Why did I even request this book? I don't even remember." But it's a low-risk thing because you can just return it if it's not for you.

[00:14:47] The other problem with my library books is, like, I can't tell you how many times I've checked out a book one, two, three times, and I've always had to return it because I never got to it. So that happens to me also.

ANNE: Okay. So it doesn't cost you anything in cash.

AMY: But it costs me my time, because I'm spending time reading those, whereas I've got some books that I own that I'm not making the time to get to, which is crazy.

ANNE: Now, you've said a couple things that we could explore more. I did notice that you said there, you don't know when your holds are going to come in. Would it change things if you could? Because in many library systems, it's possible to know, and even to choose or prioritize when your holds come in. So that is something to explore.

I also notice that you don't always remember why you requested something, and I wonder if implementing just, like, a little jotting. Like, if you're going to request a book, then your rule with yourself is you have to write down, "Oh, I heard about it on What Should I Read Next?", or, "I saw it on Instagram," or "My friend told me about it in my Tuesday book club." You could perhaps, if that would help you.

[00:15:52] AMY: That's a great idea.

AMY: Yeah. And you know what makes me crazy is I don't know how to track that on Goodreads. Like, how do I track where I found that from, or who told me about it? And I don't know if I just don't know how to use the app very well, or if it's really not a function of Goodreads.

ANNE: Okay. Readers, I bet you can tell us. Please go to whatshouldireadnextpodcast.com and go to the show notes on this episode and tell Amy and I in comments. We would love to hear if this is something that you use Goodreads or Storygraph or your online tracking site for. And then a lot of books get returned unread.

AMY: Mm-hmm.

ANNE: I don't necessarily think that's a problem. A lot of books that you buy probably also go unread for a time. I believe that's part of the Save Me From My Library Holds request.

Amy, what would you like your reading life to look like? And I'm specifically thinking what you want to be reading, how you want to feel about what you are reading, and, I mean, even better, if you have this in mind, what role would you ideally like to see the library play in your reading life? How would you like it to support you instead of perhaps be in competition for your attention and priority reads? That's a lot of questions, but what rises to the top?

[00:17:08] AMY: The thing that kinda jumps out at me is an equal trade-off between the books that I own and the library. I mean, I don't want to ignore the library completely, or maybe I make it a reward. Like, "Amy, if you knock off two books from your personal bookshelves that you own, then you can go get a couple books from the library," and make it more of a fair trade-off.

ANNE: You're thinking like a balance?

AMY: Yes.

ANNE: Like a read one from one category and one from the other?

AMY: Yes. Yes, because what happens is I'll get a stack from the library, and then I'll feel like I need to power through six books before I ever go back to one of my books for more.

ANNE: I hear you. I mean, I heard you say you could use the library as a reward, but I think we can hear how much you enjoy going to the library and seeing what you'll find, what have already heard of that's there available for you right then. That's delightful.

AMY: It's fun.

ANNE: And also I imagine you discover new books at the library.

AMY: Yes. Also true.

[00:18:08] ANNE: So we want you to have that. But I do wonder if there is a way, or if this even sounds attractive, to put a beat between seeing the book and thinking, "Oh, I want to read that really soon." Because we're readers, lots of books look good, we probably want to read more than we realistically can. So that is going to be a constant tension. And it's a wonderful thing that you're seeing all these books that sound promising, and also, it doesn't change the fact that you can only read so much.

AMY: Right. All true.

ANNE: Okay, Amy, you know how this works. You're going to tell me three books you love, one you don't, and what you've been reading lately, and then we are going to talk about what you may enjoy reading next. We're going to think about this library dilemma. Is it fair to call it a dilemma?

AMY: Mm-hmm. Of course.

ANNE: And also, you came with another request about a certain kind of book, so we aren't going to forget about that either.

AMY: Okay, great.

ANNE: Okay. How did you choose these?

[00:19:05] AMY: All right. It was funny, when I went and looked at the list of books that I had submitted with my form, I was like, "Oh, gosh, I put that on there?" So it was kind of funny. And really it was only a couple of months ago, so you'd think I would've remembered.

Anyway, the first book that I chose is called Challenger: A True Story of Heroism and Disaster on the Edge of Space by Adam Higginbotham. This is an example of narrative nonfiction, which I really, really love. I first came across this book at my favorite bookstore back in Massachusetts, which is An Unlikely Story in Plainville, and it's... I noticed it because I had read another book by this author called... well, it was called something about Chernobyl. I forget the total title of-

ANNE: Oh, Midnight In?

[00:19:51] AMY: Yes, Midnight In Chernobyl. Exactly. And that was excellent. So I saw this one, and, you know, I'll just say that those of us of a certain age, we all remember exactly where we were when the Challenger shuttle exploded. And that was in 1986.

And if you're too young to really remember this, this shuttle exploded seconds after takeoff, and all seven crew members obviously were killed. The reason why this particular shuttle flight was so in the news was because it featured Christa McAuliffe, who was a high school science teacher, and she was the first-ever teacher to go into space. So the publicity around this was huge.

This book follows the seven crew members and their lives, so you really get to know all of them. Also, the history of the space program, and they go way back decades. And it's a really gripping account of NASA and how the space program worked. And all of the mismanagement and miscommunication and programmatic decisions and problems that were made all along the way, the funding issues, the political pressures, the go, no-go decision makers, the whistleblowers, everything that contributed to the disaster.

[00:21:04] And if you remember back to that time, we all knew, like, immediately came out, oh, it was the O-rings, the O-rings. So we all knew it was the O-rings. When you read this book and you kinda see the progression of all the problems, it is amazing, and it was fascinating and it was gripping, and it really read like a thriller-type of story. And so I just really love narrative nonfiction about a topic where the author just does such detailed research, but then they put the story together in such a consumable and accessible format and so easy to read. I just loved it.

ANNE: Okay. Thanks for telling us about that. I didn't realize that was the same author as Midnight in Chernobyl. This is the first book I've read by him. Amy, what's the second book you love?

AMY: The second book I chose is The Bee Sting by Paul Murray. This was one of the books I was honestly surprised that I had on here, but it really represents a book that I cannot stop thinking about. When I was done with the book, I didn't even know what to think about it. I was just kinda so blown away.

[00:22:08] But it is a story... takes place in Ireland. It's a story of a family of four: a mom, a dad, a son, and a daughter. The time period is recent, like after a very bad economic downturn in Ireland, and this family is falling apart for a whole bunch of reasons, which you will learn reading it. But it's really interesting in that it's told in like four sections. So the four different points of view, one for each member of the family.

It starts off with the daughter. She's a teenage daughter, and she is finishing up what's the equivalent of high school in Ireland and getting ready to go off to college, and of course, just thinking about herself and everything like that, but also thinking about her family. Her family used to be a more affluent family in the town. I think they owned a car dealership. But with this economic downturn, they're losing their money. And so all of a sudden, things are happening in their family, and it's hard for her to deal with, of course. So you get her perspective.

[00:23:03] Then the book shifts to the perspective of the son, and I think he was about 12 in this story. He's just really innocent, and he's lonely, and he's looking for friendship, both in person and online, and he's dealing with a local bully, and he's trying to understand everything that's going around him, too.

Then the third perspective is from the mom, and you get the backstory of her life and how it ended up with Dickie, her husband. Things start to get pieced together when you kind of see this whole background there, things that you really had no idea.

And then the fourth perspective, fourth part of the story is from Dickie, who is the father, and boy, does he have some dark secrets. And you get his backstory, and then you kinda see why he has ended up in such a mess. Then at the end of the book, all four of them come together in this one time, this one night. I'm just going to say that if you read this book, you have to buddy read this with someone or do it with a book club because you are absolutely going to need to discuss the ending with somebody.

[00:24:12] I had listened to this on Audible, and then it just ends. I'm like, "Wait, what?" And I'm like, "I need to discuss this with someone." Of course, I knew no one who had read it at the time, so I couldn't discuss it with anybody. I think that's why it took me such a long time to kind of really digest it, but I can't stop thinking about it. And these characters are so vividly fleshed out.

But this is a stressful book to read. Bad things kind of happen to this family, and they are making some poor decisions along the way. And I just remember, I think it was particularly the little boy's segment, and I just kept saying, "No, no, no, don't do that. Don't do that." It was a little bit stressful. But I mean, it's just brilliant writing. I love anything that takes place in Ireland, so that was also great. But that was my experience with The Bee Sting.

ANNE: I do not understand the word funny being attached to this book, which I've seen. I mean, I don't know. What did you-

AMY: I would never think of that word as the way I would describe it.

[00:25:12] ANNE: I've seen this slotted as humorous fiction, and I do not understand.

AMY: Oh, no.

ANNE: I found this riveting, but also just completely harrowing.

AMY: Riveting in that I had to find out what was going to happen to them at the end, like how this was all going to wrap up. I had to find out.

ANNE: It was tense?

AMY: Yeah, tense.

ANNE: It was such a tense reading experience. And a very long reading ex... okay, this is a very long book. Talk to me about that.

AMY: Oh, I love long books. I just love to sink into a really long book because I do, I think it gives time for the author to really give you the backstories, give you a lot of descriptions of what's going on, give you the character development that I love. I just love sinking into a really long story. Now, this one, like I said, I listened to it on Audible, and sometimes on Audible you don't realize how long it is. And then when I saw the book in the bookstore, I'm like, "Oh, wow, this was a longer one."

[00:25:59] I love long books. I mean, I generally think anything under 400 pages is like a rip-off, you know? It's like, give me a 500-pager plus. And when my friends will say, "Oh my gosh, we can't read that for book club, it's 500 pages," I'm like, "So?" To me, that's average. I just love long books, and I always have. I can remember, I think I was in college, sitting by the pool reading ...And Ladies of the Club, which is like a 1,200-page book, and thinking nothing of it.

ANNE: Okay, noted on the long books. Amy, what did you choose as your final favorite?

AMY: Okay, my final favorite is The Heart's Invisible Furies by John Boyne, and this really represents my favorite book from one of my very favorite authors. I have recommended this book to everybody, and I've bought it as gifts, and I just adored it.

It's another Ireland story. It's really the story of one man's life, and his name is Cyril, and it's got an interesting format in that it's told in increments of every seven years. It actually starts when his mother is pregnant with him, so that's the first section, and then it jumps to when he's seven, and then after a little while, it jumps to when he's 14. Then it jumps to when he's 21, and it goes throughout his entire life until he's of older age.

[00:27:20] Not only do you get to follow his life, you know, he's got a lot of struggles, he has a lot of joys, really great character development in this, but it also takes you on a journey through Ireland from the 1940s to the current day. I don't think it's a spoiler alert to say that Cyril is a homosexual man, and so you deal a lot with that in Ireland, the social norms.

It was illegal for so many decades, the Catholic Church and the power of the Catholic Church. You really just get so much texture and context about the different time and period. He's just a character you just love him, but sometimes you want to shake him. Like, "Cyril, why are you doing that? Don't." You know?

I just remember listening to this on audio, and I was driving to work, and I was almost to work, and the book was just wrapping up, and I just remember the tears coming down my face, and I'm like, "Okay, Amy, get it together. Now you have to go into work." You know what? My notes here, I'm like, "I am not a re-reader," but I really feel like this is definitely one I should re-read because I just loved it. It's wonderful.

[00:28:27] ANNE: All right. Amy, now would you tell us about a book that wasn't right for you? And it's important to hear why, if you're able to put your finger on it. Like, did it not align with your taste? Was the timing all wrong? Was it about a topic it turns out you don't want to read about in literature? What did you choose?

AMY: I feel like I need to duck because everybody is going to throw a rotten tomatoes at me, but-

ANNE: I hear you stalling.

AMY: The one I chose was Jayber Crow by Wendell Berry. The reason why I chose it, it was my most recent not-for-me. It certainly wasn't the worst. And as I was kinda reviewing some books for this podcast, I was looking back through my Goodreads, and boy, there are some duds in there that I have read. But this was just my most recent not for me.

Honestly, I think it was an issue of timing and my expectations and what I was hoping for in a book. I had recently read Theo of Golden, which I loved. It was just like a warm hug, and, you know, there's a lot of tough things happening in the world these days, and I just thought Theo of Golden was wonderful. And I think I was looking to replicate that feeling, to be honest.

[00:29:35] So I had heard about Jayber Crow on your podcast, and specifically, the anniversary episode, I think had a number of different guests come on and give a quick blurb about why they loved it so much. So when I was at a bookstore and I saw it, I thought, "Oh, this sounds perfect for me," so I grabbed it. And here I am reading one of my actual books, which was great but just not enough was happening for me.

This book takes place in an early 1930s small-town life, I think, in Kentucky. Starts with the main character as a boy, and then he grows up, and he becomes the town barber. It's definitely one of those kinda just character-driven stories, which I do tend to love. I don't have to have action-packed plots and things like that, but it just not enough was happening for me.

[00:30:20] I think maybe it was too close following on the heels of Theo of Golden, which was, you know, one of those nice soft books, and I think I just needed something different. Also I had a stack of library books staring at me in the face on the counter too. I got about halfway through the book, and every night I would get into bed, and I'd be like, "Ugh, I guess I should read this." And I'm like, "Amy, you're clearly not loving this book. Just set it aside. It's not for you right now." And so I did. I set it aside. It wasn't for me right now.

ANNE: Okay. Amy, I heard you reference ideas like it was slow, leisurely paced. You said you were seeking a read-alike, so something charming, whimsical.

AMY: Mm-hmm.

ANNE: Okay. Wendell Berry might be gentle, but... oh gosh, I remember laughing once when I saw Jayber Crow in a grouping of books about sad, small towns. And I thought, "Wow." I mean, that's not wrong, but also, what company to keep. It's very character-driven, very leisurely paced and that was not what you were seeking at that time.

[00:31:31] AMY: You know what? I just kept thinking to myself, I need something to happen. I need some more action. And I believe I set it down, and I went right to, like, a mystery thriller. So the timing just wasn't right.

ANNE: Okay. Also, it doesn't crack 400 pages.

AMY: No. But that's okay. I mean, I read plenty of books that don't, but you know.

ANNE: So not a rip-off, but not for you.

AMY: Yeah, exactly. Not a rip-off, but it wasn't for me.

ANNE: You are allowed to declare Wendell Berry not to be to your taste on this podcast.

AMY: Okay, thank you.

ANNE: All right. All right. Amy, what have you been reading lately?

AMY: I feel like I've been on a really great streak. I just read The Whistler, finished that a couple of weeks ago. It's a wonderful story. Again, short story. I mean, it's not a short story, but I mean, it's... I don't even know if it's 300 pages. But it's by Ann Patchett. I just adore everything that she writes. Really, really great contemporary story.

[00:32:25] Then I read The Calamity Club by Kathryn Stockett, and that was an easy five-star read for me. I mean, just really hit all the things that I love in a book: historical fiction, great characters. This book is really... it's about 1930s Mississippi and women's rights or lack thereof and things that used to happen all the time, but truly it's a story about sisterhood. I just loved it. And that's a big book. That was over 600 pages, and I flew through it because it was so good, and then I was really sad when it was over. So that was a great experience.

And then just the other night, I finished John of John by Douglas Stuart, and that one was really good too. It is a story about a young man who comes from a small Scottish island, and most of the people there are weavers or sheep herders, and they don't have a lot of money. But he was one of the few people that got to go off to a college, and now he's finished college, he's broke, he doesn't have a job, and he has to return home to the island. And he doesn't want to.

[00:33:28] He's kinda coming back with his tail between his legs. He doesn't want to go, but now he's gotta acclimate himself again to life with his family and his friends and life on the island. Really great story. Again, great character development, such a sense of place. Like you could just imagine these Scottish islands. That one was really good too, so I definitely recommend that. So had a good run.

ANNE: All right. I'm glad to hear it. Amy, what are you looking for in your reading life right now? I have to say, this is the place where we want to talk about your library holds and your long books. Is there something else you want to throw into the mix? Now's the moment.

AMY: No. I mean, I really, really want some long books. Now that I'm retired, in theory I should have a lot more time to read, and so should give me plenty of time to sink into a really great long book. Although, you know, with this recent move I haven't had quite as much reading time as I thought I would have, but that's going to settle down very, very soon.

[00:34:27] I find that heading into the fall and the winter tends to be a great time to also read long books. You just feel cozier and can really settle in with them. So long books. I'd love maybe a historical fiction selection, like some big long sweeping saga. I would love a narrative nonfiction.

What I have kind of discovered about myself is that I kind of love a book about a random topic that I know absolutely nothing about, if the author can really turn it into a compulsive, readable story. A few examples of that were The Boys in the Boat, which is about a crew team from the University of Washington in the 1930s, and I thought it was absolutely riveting. Say Nothing by Patrick Radden Keefe, which is all about Ireland and the IRA, which I knew nothing about as well. And then I also read a book called Everything Is Tuberculosis. I forget who the author is on that one.

ANNE: It's John Green.

[00:35:23] AMY: But it was all about tuberculosis. And it's like, who knew I'd be so interested in this? That's a really short book, but it really packed a punch. I loved it. So really looking for things like that, that I can really sink into. I love to learn when I read, so something that I can learn about, and maybe a mix between new-to-me books and maybe things that are currently sitting on my shelves. Who knows?

ANNE: Okay. And we want long bo... not all long books, but long books.

AMY: Yeah, long books.

ANNE: Okay. Amy, since you said in your submission that you're not getting to the books you own and you want to prioritize some of those, we asked you to send some of those books that you really wanted to get to sooner rather than later. And I'm looking at those lists. So we're going to draw some from there also.

AMY: Okay, great.

ANNE: Okay, let's recap real quick. The books you loved were Challenger by Adam Higginbotham, The Bee Sting by Paul Murray, and The Heart's Invisible Furies by John Boyne. Jayber Crow by Wendell Berry was not for you, and lately you've enjoyed Ann Patchett's The Whistler, Kathryn Stockett's The Calamity Club, and John of John by Douglas Stuart.

[00:36:29] You have referenced Irish fiction over and over. We've heard about your love for narrative nonfiction, and I'm looking at this... It's not a long list of books. I think there's maybe 16 to 18 on this list. But you did send some books that you thought you may enjoy reading next.

Also, I want to say, we are facing a new literary season, and there is so much Irish fiction coming out. Now, some of it is short, some of it is short, but I don't know, I wouldn't call Louise Kennedy a rip-off at any length.

AMY: No, she's good. I've read some of hers.

ANNE: As just one example of many. So I think there is going to be more on the way, more we'll talk about this on the show, more that I can't wait to talk about in Fall Book Preview, that I think will really pique your interest. But let's look at these titles.

The first one that jumped out to me, I think especially with your book clubs ringing in my ears, was Caste by Isabel Wilkerson that could've been on your list for... I mean, not forever. Some of these books are quite old, and this one just came out not much longer than five years ago. Okay, I heard you gasp. What's that about?

[00:37:38] AMY: That has been sitting on my bookshelf probably since it came out. I was going to guess five years ago, but four or five years ago. I think I bought it right away, because I loved her other book, The Warmth of Other Suns. So when this came out, I'm like, "Oh, for sure I'm going to buy it," and it has sadly sat on my bookshelf for so long, and I look at it all the time, I'm like, "What is wrong with you, Amy? Just grab it and read it." So, yes, tell me more about why I should put that to the pop- top of my list.

ANNE: Well, I think it's also ringing in my ears because I was in conversation earlier this week with a group of readers sharing the books that prompted the best book club conversations they ever had. And Caste by Isabel Wilkerson came up several times.

AMY: Okay.

ANNE: If you enjoyed The Warmth of Other Suns, I felt like this one was even more story-driven. I know that readers will often use or hear the phrase, like, "Oh, this is nonfiction that reads like a novel." And Isabel Wilkerson does not write like that, nor is she trying to, but she does this incredible job of writing these narratives that feel like she's telling you an important story that makes you want to lean in and say, like, "Just keep it coming. Just keep talking. Tell me more. Tell me more."

[00:38:56] But for those who've already read The Warmth of Other Suns, or those who haven't, this feels either like the obvious next thing to read next. But no prior experience with her work is required. But she tells this story about how... well, one formative experience in her own life, and also one important conversation helped her understand that maybe we shouldn't be evaluating the history of the United States through the lens of racism, but perhaps America has been shaped by a hidden caste system.

Here she's arguing for this idea that if you want to understand US social hierarchy, which might sound a little textbooky, but Isabel Wilkerson is not dry when it comes to explaining these concepts that, like, we are immersed in and living in, and describing how people live their lives and think about being human and think about being in society and relationships. I mean, Amy, I know from what you enjoy reading that this is something that you find inherently fascinating.

[00:39:52] But because of this nudge she was given in a conversation long ago, she realized that understanding the United States as operating under a caste system unlocks things in her own mind and in what she's found many people's understandings. So what she describes a caste system as being a deeply entrenched, but totally invented method of categorizing people by birth.

Here she links the caste systems of India, Nazi Germany, places that we may think, like, "Oh, of course," while excluding the US from there. But she says, like, "No, it's how the United States fits into this picture," and just does this deep dive into caste and also history, class, race, social norms. What I think really makes the book for many readers is she explains the concepts, but the stories she tells that really helps them make sense, sink in, come to life, not only are vivid and fascinating and sometimes horrible, but also I think really cement the ideas in readers' minds, where it's the kind of book that sticks with you for the long haul.

[00:41:07] So you know how you ended up putting this on your shelf, and what you had in mind when you thought about maybe reading it. Like, how is it sounding right now in that light?

AMY: Oh, it sounds amazing. I'm like, "What have I been doing letting that linger on my shelf for so long?" It sounds amazing.

ANNE: Well, we want to save you from your library holds and you know, the newer, shinier arrivals. But I hope you find this to be one that has earned its spot, and that there's a good reason it's been hanging out for a while.

AMY: Great.

ANNE: So you recently loved The Calamity Club.

AMY: Mm-hmm.

ANNE: Kin by Tayari Jones isn't by any means a readalike, but this has so much in common with The Calamity Club. It's sadder for sure. But I think what you'll find here is you've got historical fiction, great characters that you are deeply invested in from early on. You've got a historical setting, not the same, but I think pleasantly different while being pleasantly similar. But as far as sisterhood stories goes, oh, my. How did this end up on your list?

[00:42:11] AMY: Interestingly enough, I belong to a... it's not really a book club, but Ann Patchett, who owns a bookstore in Nashville called Parnassus, she has a monthly club that you can join. It's called The First Editions Club.

ANNE: The First Editions Club.

AMY: Yes. And so every month she sends a book, and it's been signed by the author, and Ann writes this really wonderful letter in there about why she picked the selection and what she thought about it and why she thought it'd be good for this book club. So every month I get one of these, one of these books. I haven't had it that long, but I haven't gotten to it either.

ANNE: Okay. Well, it's only 384 pages. But I mean, Tayari Jones, never a rip-off. My reading experience, which might not be the same as yours, it took me a little bit to figure out which character was which, but then I was off and running and just drank it right down.

AMY: Oh, good.

[00:43:05] ANNE: This is a platonic love story. The two women, who are so c... when I say sister story, I'm thinking about Vernice and Annie. They're two girls from small town Louisiana who feel psychically bonded in that they both lost their mothers when they were babies. One was murdered, one ran off to Memphis, but they are both gone. And on the brink of adulthood, Vernice goes to Spelman and marries rich; Annie runs away from home to try and find her mother, and she just encounters one devastating obstacle after another on her journey.

But they stay in touch through it all, and they remain the most important in each other's lives. But then when one of them really needs the other, like, whoo, the story enters a whole other... I think you may really enjoy it.

AMY: Ooh.

ANNE: It would be an excellent companion to The Calamity Club. I also think it would be an excellent companion to readers, if you remember me talking about These Heathens by Maya Mackenzie from last year's Summer Reading Guide. Not readalikes, but just books that really feel companionable. How's that sounding?

[00:44:11] AMY: Oh, it sounds amazing. Right up my alley.

ANNE: I'm glad to hear it. I am wondering about doing a... I mean, Middlemarch was jumping out at me. I didn't want to recommend any of your series installments because... you know best there. But I will say, many What Should I Read Next? listeners would definitely say, like, "Don't sleep on that, Amy." Like, "What are you doing? Why is that, why is that book hanging out?"

Middlemarch jumped out at me. It's a book that's referenced so often in literature, and I think I... That sounded a little nerdy. What I mean is there are so many references in mainstream books and also very literary works about... You know, are those even different? Not really, but Middlemarch references abound. I just finished reading Jane Smiley's 13 Ways of Looking at the Novel, which I know I mentioned here. She talks at length about Middlemarch.

[00:45:01] You know what Middlemarch does? Okay, I think this is why it's jumping out for you. As you've been discussing the books you enjoy and why, I've been wondering how much you might enjoy seeing authors analyze real events, history, people and their actions, the whys behind what we do. I wonder if there's something there about Project Hail Mary, and why that was the exception in the sci-fi fantasy you don't usually enjoy, and why perhaps Wendell Berry wasn't it for you. But I am wondering. Is there anything there?

AMY: The only thing that worries me about Middlemarch, and you can tell me one way or the other, sometimes these classical books are hard to read because the language is from the 1800s, and it takes a while to get into. Is this a book that I will find difficult to read, or will I be able to kinda, like, after a little bit just kinda sink right into the language and totally get it?

ANNE: Ooh, okay. I'm sorry to say I don't know, because I listened to Juliet Stevenson read it to me. And I find that when the language in classic books is not so smooth to the modern ear, a skilled narrator who, like, it just rolls off their tongue, it eliminates that gap between how we talk in the... I mean, George Eliot wrote this in the 1870s. She was writing about the 1830s. It feels more current.

[00:46:23] But I will say many readers say that part of the pleasure of reading Middlemarch is just the consistently striking sentences and turns of phrases, and how it just feels good on every line. And that doesn't sound like a description people give to archaic language.

AMY: Right. Right. That's interesting what you said about audio versus, on the written page, because I found that true with Pride and Prejudice. I could listen to it on Audible. It was great. It was one of those times when I think I had it from the library, or... At any case, after a couple of weeks, the audiobook just got scooped off my device, like my time ran out on it, and I wasn't quite done. And I thought, "Well, I'm just going to pick up the book from the library, and I'll just finish reading the book."

I picked up the book, I opened it up, I'm like, "I can't read this." It was just too difficult to read on the page, but the audio was amazing. So that's something to think about.

[00:47:19] ANNE: That's a common experience. And the only thing that really makes me hesitate on Middlemarch, I mean, if you hadn't said you hadn't listened to an audiobook since you retired, I'd say, "Amy, just pick up the audio." But that being what it is right now, yeah, I leave that in your hands.

AMY: Okay. Well, I can just pick it up off my bookshelf as well. So maybe that's- Oh, that's-

ANNE: Oh, yeah, so true. Yeah, give it a try and see what you think. I wonder if you may find that worth your while. And at 900 pages, it is definitely not a rip-off.

AMY: Right.

ANNE: Okay. So you also mentioned in your submission that something that you really noticed about pulling that list of books together that are on your shelves, that it's made you realize how much you love nonfiction books about random topics you know nothing about. And I was wondering if we might want to end with a few titles in that direction.

AMY: Yes, please. I would love that.

[00:48:12] ANNE: Okay. I kinda want to ask you what random topics you don't know anything about. But let's do three that are pretty different. Does that sound okay?

AMY: Okay. Yeah.

ANNE: Okay. Have you read anything by David Grann? Killers of the Flower Moon is his best-known. But-

AMY: Yes, I read Killers.

ANNE: Okay. How about The Lost City of Z, his earlier work?

AMY: No.

ANNE: Okay. The subtitle of this is A Tale of Deadly Obsession in the Amazon. This is about an expedition in search of an ancient civilization into the Amazon wilderness in the 1920s. The whole crew vanished, and they were unfound for many years because the forest was thick and it wasn't clear exactly where they'd gone. But the lead on this crusade left a few clues behind about the undiscovered city he was seeking that he called Z.

[00:49:08] So for many years, scientists and explorers have been looking for what happened to this expedition and what he might have discovered before his disappearance. So, David Grann found this collection of diaries of the lead on this expedition, and he embarked on his own quest to solve the mystery, and he found out he's not the only one. Like, other people are in the jungle looking to find out the truth of what happened 100 years ago. Bum, bum, bum. Okay, how does that sound to you?

AMY: I've never heard of this. I've never heard of The Lost City of Z. I didn't know that there was a crew that disappeared. This sounds exactly like something I would love because... Except for... you know, one thing about reading books about the Amazon is I do worry about the snakes.

ANNE: Oh.

AMY: I don't know if they got attacked by snakes or not. Or there are probably references to snakes, but that's... I'll just kinda pass over that when I get to the snake part if there are snakes in there. It's a jungle, right? Yeah, there's going to be snakes.

ANNE: It is. It is a jungle.

AMY: But yeah, no, this sounds great.

ANNE: The snakes might not be the worst part.

AMY: Okay, okay.

[00:50:11] ANNE: I mean, you said topics you don't know anything about, okay?

AMY: Yes.

ANNE: I might recommend a shorter book like Trash by Simon Paré-Poupart from the Summer Reading Guide, but I wasn't going to, because that's so short. That might be unwelcome. But it's there. It's out there. Now, I'm just really apologizing for recommending a book about parking, but I do wonder if you might enjoy- something super nerdy like The High Cost of Free Parking by Donald Shoup. It's 800 pages about the economic structures that are invisible to most of us that support the use of the car in many communities, including the one I live in, likely including the one you live in.

This is the kind of book that you read... I mean, you read a chapter, and then you think about it every time you walk down a city street. But he evaluates parking, mostly in the United States, how we got where we are, how decisions are made, how making different decisions impacts how people respond and what the communities look like. Is this sounding terrible or perhaps intriguing?

[00:51:21] AMY: No, this sounds really, really good. I don't know if this is the same book that I, or if I read a phrase about something that says people don't realize that when you go to like a Walmart or a big box store and you have to park in that giant parking lot, the distance you walk from your car into that store is no different than the distance you might walk on a city street or a small town downtown area that you have to park and walk to. But people don't like to go to the small downtown areas because they think they're parking so far away from the store. Is this along the same lines, or is this the same concept from this book?

ANNE: It's not dissimilar. But what Donald Shoup is going to do is he's going to say, "Why is the parking lot so big in the first place?" How does the zoning work? Yeah. What does it mean? Why is it in the front and not the back? What could be different? How does consumer behavior change when we alter the variables? What happens when we change the zoning laws to restrict fewer parking? Why are the zoning laws what they are? How'd they get that way in the first place? What changes when you charge for it? Oh my goodness. Right now, as we record, they've just announced that they are going to start charging for some suburban mall parking in my community, and-

[00:52:33] AMY: What? People must be losing their minds.

ANNE: People feel a way about it. But I think Donald Shoup says, "Read this book, you'll never look at a parking spot the same way again." 100% true.

AMY: Oh, that sounds so good to me. It's funny because I just moved to a new community, and we are... This community, it's within the city of Charleston, but we're far away from the downtown city of Charleston. We're a little bit further up. And it's all being developed. We're kinda one of the earlier communities in here, and it's all going to be developed over the next 10 to 20 years, and it's going to change so much.

But we're very close to Mount Pleasant, which compared to the Northeast... So if you live in a city in the Northeast, the big joke is all the towns are designed around the original cow paths when people had their cows grazing in the town common, and the cows would walk home, and that's how all the roads came to be.

[00:53:28] I mean, it's so hard to find your way around in Massachusetts if you don't know where you're going because the roads make no sense. But when you come down here to Mount Pleasant, for example, it is a community that has been developed over the last 20 years or so, and it just makes so much more sense the way they've designed like the shopping and the roads that get you through. I'm just so curious about this topic. Who knew I was going to be so curious about this? But we're living in an area that's going to be going through this development, and it will give me a lot to think about, for sure.

ANNE: I'm really interested to hear how what you find in these pages will connect with the two most recent places you've lived. Like what a fascinating contrast, too. So you could see some of the differences he's talking about, and sometimes advocating for, sometimes just observing, play out before your eyes and in your experience.

AMY: Awesome.

[00:54:22] ANNE: Finally, knowing your love of History, I'm wondering about something by Andrea Wulf. We did talk about... We. I talked about The Traveller in the summer reading guide, but I think The Invention of Nature: Alexander von Humboldt's New World would be a really interesting pick for you. It's pleasantly long at... It's almost 600 pages. Is this a book you're familiar with?

AMY: I have never heard of this.

ANNE: Okay. So The Invention of Nature, this concept, of course, is what... you know what nature is, I know what nature is. But Von Humboldt really changed the way that we think about the natural world. So now he's known as the Father of Modern Environmentalism. He was certainly the most famous scientist of his age. He was born in the late 18th century, and just had this innate love for outdoor exploration, and he traveled the globe just searching for unusual environments.

[00:55:23] Amy, I'm noticing a kinship with you, who likes to read about random topics you don't know anything about, just for the pleasure of learning new things. I mean, he got around. He was friends with Thomas Jefferson. He was an inspiration to Darwin and Thoreau, and he really wanted to help people understand our relationship to the natural world and helped us think about it.

So this is a biography that also takes you by, through following his life through scientific discoveries, through a variety of sometimes familiar, but sometimes really fascinating far-flung places, and also into the Royal Court of his patrons, for example. How's that sounding?

AMY: It sounds really good. I've never heard of him. I've never heard of the book. It definitely sounds like something I would learn a lot from in a really great way.

[00:56:15] ANNE: Andrea Wulf has this gift for combining these really deeply researched topics with their emotional meaning, and it makes for really satisfying non-textbooky kind of reads.

AMY: Ooh. It's going to make me want to look her up right after this call and see what else she has written too.

ANNE: I recommend it. I recommend it.

AMY: That's great.

ANNE: Okay. Can we look at where we are?

AMY: Yes.

ANNE: All right. So we're looking to save you from your library holds by focusing on some books already on your shelves, and also books that you would be glad to know about that maybe aren't going to be face out at your local library or not going to hunt you down on Instagram, but might be right up your alley, especially focusing on those nonfiction reads that you really love to read about... How would you finish that sentence? Unknown topics to you?

AMY: Yes, yes.

[00:57:13] ANNE: Okay. So from your own shelves, we talked about Caste by Isabel Wilkerson, Kin by Tayari Jones, the shortest book we talked about, almost, but not quite 400 pages, and Middlemarch by George Eliot. So we have two novels in the midst of this nonfiction

AMY: I think from that group, I'm going to grab Caste first because-

ANNE: I love that choice for you.

AMY: I am. It's been on there for so long. It's always looking at me. I've always wanted to grab it, and this is the perfect time to grab it and read it. So I think from that group, Caste.

ANNE: Okay. And then to satisfy your realization that you love nonfiction books about random topics you know nothing about, we talked about The Lost City of Z by David Grann, The High Cost of Free Parking by Donald Shoup, and The Invention of Nature by Andrea Wulf. What do you think about those?

[00:58:14] AMY: I think I'm going to go for The High Cost of Free Parking.

ANNE: Not sad about it. Very curious to know what you think.

AMY: I mean, obviously all of them will end up on the list, and I'll definitely get to all of them, but for some reason, The High Cost of Free Parking just really sounds fascinating to me right now.

ANNE: I love it. All right. Amy, this has been a pleasure.

AMY: Oh.

ANNE: How are you feeling about your library situation?

AMY: You know what? I am super excited. Now I can go to the library and get a library card without feeling guilty about it, and enjoy the new libraries that we have down here in Charleston. And I can't wait.

ANNE: All right. I'm so excited to hear it. Thank you for talking books with me today.

AMY: Oh, thank you for having me. It was absolutely so much fun.

[00:59:02] ANNE: Hey, readers. I hope you enjoyed my discussion with Amy, and I'd love to hear what you think she should read next. Find the full list of titles we talked about today at whatshouldireadnextpodcast.com.

Keep up with what's new around What Should I Read Next? HQ on Instagram, where you will find us @WhatShouldIReadNext. We also send out updates right to your email inbox. Join our list at whatshouldireadnextpodcast.com/newsletter.

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[00:59:44] Thanks to the people who make this show happen. What Should I Read Next? is created each week by executive producer Will Bogel, Media production specialist Holly Wielkoszewski, social media manager and editor Leigh Kramer, community coordinator Brigid Misselhorn, community manager Shannan Malone, and our whole team at What Should I Read Next? and Modern Mrs. Darcy HQ. Plus the audio whizzes at Studio D Podcast Production.

Readers, that's it for this episode. Thanks so much for listening. And as Rainer Maria Rilke said, "Ah, how good it is to be among people who are reading." Happy reading, everyone.