[00:00:00] Nathan: 16 of the smartest authors in one room and learning like what’s working in book marketing and launches and everything else,

[00:00:06] Haley: it, it’s insane.

[00:00:07] Nathan: I co-hosted a private mastermind with James, clear author of Atomic Habits, and we invited some of the top non-fiction authors in the world to Nashville to share what’s actually working when writing books.

[00:00:16] Nathan: We talked about book launch tactics that most creators never try, what they’re testing on Instagram right now, including trial reels and the posting strategies that are actually moving the needle.

[00:00:24] Haley: They were testing content in TikTok and then if it did well on TikTok yes, then they would move it over to Instagram.

[00:00:29] Haley: Mm-hmm. It was like a good testing ground for virality.

[00:00:32] Nathan: So there’s a couple people who have very large Instagram accounts and it was interesting hearing them talk about. How they used on Instagram to reach new audiences. There were so many crazy things, but one thing that really stood out to me was how much prep goes into an appearance on a world class podcast.

[00:00:49] Nathan: I would’ve assumed that someone’s doing like 15 to 20 hours of prep for the most important podcast they’re going on. It’s like, Nope, 80 hours.

[00:00:56] Haley: 80 hours.

[00:01:02] Nathan: So this episode is going to be us sharing our favorite moments, takeaways, all of that from getting 16 of the smartest authors in one room and learning like what’s working in book marketing and launches and everything else.

[00:01:15] Haley: Okay. Before though, before we go into that, be honest, we’re gonna tell, we’re gonna tell everybody who came, right?

[00:01:22] Nathan: Yeah,

[00:01:23] Haley: yeah, yeah. Okay. I mean,

[00:01:23] Nathan: it’s on Instagram.

[00:01:24] Haley: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Be honest. Who did you fan Boy over or in Fan Girl Over? Who is your one person that you Fanboyed fan

[00:01:31] Nathan: over? I would say Will Guera. Unreasonable Hospitality is such a good book and he also, we did an episode on the show. He was fantastic. His business partner Brian, uh, came to, uh, to the podcast as well, and they have great energy and their stories are so good and just the experience they’ve created for so many people running like the best restaurants in the world.

[00:01:52] Nathan: That was pretty great. Mm-hmm. Another fun moment you can talk about this more was the hotel staff like Fanboying over the back. The like number one person in hospitality is staying at their hotel

[00:02:04] Haley: at the concierge. She was like, what do you do? How did you get him to come here? Like, what do you do? Um, but yeah, they really loved the, the, it’s required reading for every single person at this hotel.

[00:02:18] Haley: It was required reading for them to read. Yeah,

[00:02:20] Nathan: that’s really cool. Hospitality. And then,

[00:02:22] Haley: yeah,

[00:02:22] Nathan: just waltzing in one day to stay at the hotel. Yeah.

[00:02:25] Haley: Yeah. She was just like, you must have the coolest job in the world. Um, but yeah, that was funny.

[00:02:31] Nathan: That’s awesome.

[00:02:31] Chelsea: It was fun watching him watch everything too. You know, it’s like he can’t, I don’t think he can’t turn it off, you know?

[00:02:37] Chelsea: I’m

[00:02:37] Haley: sure. Yeah, he was, he was just like a pure, pure joy.

[00:02:40] Chelsea: Yeah,

[00:02:41] Haley: it was great. Okay. Chelsea, I know yours now. I wanna see you in

[00:02:43] Chelsea: the day. You do know mine. Um, mine was James Clear who co-hosted the event with us. Uh, James, it was actually funny, my LinkedIn banner was a quote from James forever and then I changed it this week because I felt like it was a week before

[00:02:58] Nathan: the event.

[00:02:59] Nathan: I was

[00:02:59] Haley: like, oh my gosh. Right

[00:03:00] Nathan: before you met Hung

[00:03:01] Haley: I was like, I don’t wanna be a clear fan

[00:03:03] Chelsea: girl. Wow. Before the event, it was that you don’t rise to the level of your goals, you fall to the level of your systems.

[00:03:09] Haley: Oh yeah. Okay.

[00:03:09] Chelsea: Which, if you know me, systems,

[00:03:12] Haley: it feels very, feels very much like

[00:03:12] Chelsea: you very on brand for me.

[00:03:13] Chelsea: Accurate. I like

[00:03:14] Haley: it.

[00:03:14] Chelsea: Um, so yeah, James got me back into reading after finishing a couple degrees and I was over books and Atomic Habits came out and kind of reignited that habit for me. So that was exciting.

[00:03:26] Nathan: I like it.

[00:03:27] Chelsea: What about you?

[00:03:28] Haley: I’ve met her before. I had met her before, but I, I’d probably say Jen Hatmaker because I read, I mean, I listened, let’s be honest.

[00:03:37] Haley: But, um, I listened to, um, her book for the Love and she just has a very iconic voice too. Yeah. Um, and then her newest book that, uh, just came out, which is called Awake, was just wonderful and spending more quality time with her was really fun. Um, ’cause I’ve just, I’ve been a consumer of her content, if you will, for a really long time.

[00:03:59] Haley: And, um, so I’d probably say Jen Hatmaker. The other thing is that I love about her in particular is she kept saying, she has, um, words that she says, like, tickled, you know, I’m just tickled about that. Yeah. You know, and like I have found myself, she, another one she said today, I said it on three calls today.

[00:04:16] Haley: I said, yeah, I’ll noodle on that. And that’s because she said that multiple times and I was like, I’m taking that. Yeah, I’m taking that. So. I feel like I’ll just pick up, uh, anything that she says. Um, but probably Jen Hatmaker.

[00:04:29] Nathan: Yeah. There were so many good people.

[00:04:31] Haley: Yeah. There were

[00:04:31] Nathan: One thing that was fun about the format is on, well, we did dinner, a happy hour dinner and all of that the night before.

[00:04:38] Nathan: Basically just let people get to know each other. Ease into the group. ’cause I think a bunch of people said, like, I actually don’t know that many of these people, which is interesting. We knew Mo many of them already. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I mean we, we and James invited everybody. And so, um, you know, I felt like, okay, I know most all of these people, but a lot of people were like, I’m going in knowing very few people.

[00:04:59] Nathan: Um, so just let everyone get to know each other. All of that is a great group. And then on the morning of the first real day, the thing we kicked off with was everyone sharing one tip or strategy, something that’s been working well for them. And it just immediately got, you know, all these type of people talking about things at a very high level.

[00:05:16] Nathan: And you’re like, okay, wow. The, the brain power in this room and the accomplishments are, are pretty great. Mm-hmm. So I thought we’d kick it off just sharing. A few of the things that stood out to us, uh, that was shared in the group.

[00:05:28] Haley: Are you gonna kick it, kick us off.

[00:05:29] Nathan: You want me to go first?

[00:05:30] Haley: Yeah. Yeah. Kick us off.

[00:05:31] Nathan: All right. Uh, one that stood out. So there’s a couple people who have very large Instagram accounts. Mm-hmm. Like million, uh, many million follower accounts. And it was interesting hearing them talk about how they use trial reels on Instagram to reach new audiences.

[00:05:48] Haley: Mm-hmm.

[00:05:49] Nathan: Because it very, you know, for anyone who doesn’t know the trial reel is Instagram taking something and saying, we’re not showing it to any of your existing followers.

[00:05:55] Nathan: We’ll put it out only to, uh, new followers. And I think people, you know, might be like, oh, I’ll do one of those a week or something. But these top accounts were like, look, we’ve kind of saturated our existing followers and we’re actually getting shown to our same followers a lot, so we want to grow more.

[00:06:09] Nathan: We have to go outside that. And so they’re posting really a lot of content to trial reels. And then they were saying they don’t repost it. So if it does really well reaching this new audience. They don’t press the button to convert it to the main feed. They leave it running over there in trial reels and they post a slightly different version, uh, to the main feed.

[00:06:29] Nathan: And that way they get the benefit of those two posts and the audiences will never cross, which I thought was really interesting. Instagram won’t show the same thing. Um, I guess even if it did, you should be like, oh, I’ve seen this video before.

[00:06:41] Haley: What’s interesting though, about this particular one is that I actually feel like we got in the, just for the format, for the sake of the format, one person would say a thing that was working for them, and then if people wanted to jump in, they could be like, oh, I’ve had a similar experience.

[00:06:56] Haley: Or if we wanted to dig into that particular thing and ask questions, people would ask questions. And so for this one, some people did repost it to their feed mm-hmm. After it did really well and some people did not. Mm-hmm. Um, but I thought that, that, that, just for sake of, you know, setting the stage, we did dig into some of these things.

[00:07:15] Haley: Yeah.

[00:07:16] Nathan: Sometimes people would share for a minute or two and be like, oh, that’s interesting. People take notes.

[00:07:19] Haley: Yeah.

[00:07:19] Nathan: And other times it would turn into a 15 minute discussion

[00:07:21] Haley: mm-hmm. Yeah.

[00:07:22] Nathan: Of people building on it and say, oh, I love that. Here’s the version that I do.

[00:07:25] Haley: Mm-hmm.

[00:07:26] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:07:26] Haley: Yeah.

[00:07:27] Nathan: What about you, Hailey?

[00:07:27] Nathan: What was one of yours?

[00:07:28] Haley: Ooh. Probably, you know, I think this is interesting because obviously we work at Kit or own kit, some

[00:07:37] Chelsea: of us,

[00:07:38] Haley: some of us in the room anyways. Um, we have forever. We have talked about the use of opt-in incentives to grow your list. Mm-hmm. Um, and one of the folks in the room completely kind of threw that to the side and they now do what they call tiny offers.

[00:07:57] Haley: And so rather than giving away free incentives to go their, their, their list, they’re, and I’m not saying that they’re not a hundred percent, like every single one of their opt-in incentives is gone, but they’re doing tiny offers and so it’s like. $59 or $47, um, for a really, really high value op incentive.

[00:08:14] Haley: And then they’re using that to further convert high ticket offers. And so it shows, it’s a, it’s a, a show of extreme high intent if they’re willing to spend $47. Um, and I thought that was really interesting ’cause I hadn’t heard of anyone doing that. Um, I hadn’t heard of anyone doing that quite as prolific as they were doing it.

[00:08:32] Nathan: Yeah. And it kind of split the room because I feel like a bunch of people heard that and were like, oh yeah, of course. And they had their version of it where they were like, charge early. It gets to this smaller but very targeted audience. And then the other half of the room is like, I’m sorry, what lead magnets are out.

[00:08:48] Nathan: And like

[00:08:48] Haley: Yeah.

[00:08:49] Nathan: You know, and obviously it depends on what you’re, um, building towards the person who is sharing it. Originally they’ve moved from like a low

[00:08:57] Haley: mm-hmm.

[00:08:57] Nathan: Like a more of a beginner audience to like serving a much more advanced audience. And so they’ve had to like reallocate. So

[00:09:03] Haley: their lowest ticket item, I think.

[00:09:06] Haley: Is like $6,500.

[00:09:07] Nathan: Mm-hmm. For their main offer.

[00:09:08] Haley: Yeah, for their main offer. And so this is an incentive into that. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:09:12] Nathan: And then in their ads, they’re able to. Recoup a bunch of their ad spend on this, like 50 or a hundred dollars tiny offer. Um, and I thought that was, that was really interesting.

[00:09:23] Chelsea: Um, well, you have a book coming out.

[00:09:25] Chelsea: That was one of the most exciting things for me being in the room as somebody that is helping with that strategy and everything that we’re gonna do to launch that. Um, I think one of the things that was interesting is being really intentional about how you’re asking people to promote your book. Yep.

[00:09:41] Chelsea: And making it as easy for them as possible. People are busy, you know, you’re not just sending a whole book and say here to whoever you know, will you read my book? It’s, you know, having them opt in. Yes. I want, or, you know, I would like to read your book or sending them specific sections for what makes the most sense for them.

[00:10:00] Chelsea: Um. Yeah, just trying to make sure you curate a team that’s really gonna support you and give you the feedback that you need.

[00:10:06] Haley: The two things that I think were really tactical about this particular one was doing unscalable tactics and then having a really strong street team.

[00:10:17] Chelsea: Yeah.

[00:10:17] Haley: And so the unscalable tactics component of this was, um, writing letters to every single person or like a handful of people.

[00:10:26] Haley: Yep. Um, very wil guera, like, you know Yeah. Like unscalable tactics above. Yeah. It would write, going above and beyond. Um, and then highlighting. Individual chapters or parts in a specific chapter that was specific to the person that you were sending it to. And so I’ll just make up an, an example here, I guess is, um, Sahil Bloom’s book, the Five Types of Wealth.

[00:10:47] Haley: He has, um, a chapter like for parents, you know. And so if that particular person was in that season of life, he might highlight that particular chapter and then put in, you know, like a sticky note or something along those lines. And that was a very unscalable tactic. Um, and so that was one that came from that, I think.

[00:11:04] Haley: And then the other one was, um, a strong street team.

[00:11:10] Chelsea: Yeah.

[00:11:11] Haley: You know, and there were several people, you know, everybody what seemed

[00:11:15] Chelsea: like

[00:11:15] Haley: pretty everybody. There was a New York Times bestseller.

[00:11:18] Nathan: Just about,

[00:11:18] Haley: just about, yeah. Most, most people. Um, and so the street team was a huge, strong component, like mm-hmm.

[00:11:25] Haley: Part of that, um,

[00:11:26] Nathan: and they developed those teams early on. Like that was, you know, we’re taking all these notes from my book launch coming up, and it’s like, okay,

[00:11:32] Haley: yeah.

[00:11:33] Nathan: They had people by city and they, they had all of these different things and then very specific asks of what they wanted their, their street team to do.

[00:11:39] Haley: Mm-hmm.

[00:11:40] Nathan: But, um, building on the, the example from, from Sahil, which he’s talked about this publicly, so I feel totally fine, fine sharing it, but he talked about how important it is to have visuals in the book that can be shared easily on Instagram or wherever else. And so he would specifically have somebody he was sending out the book to everyone was saying basically send lots of like, give away lots of copies of your, of your book, but make sure to do it to people who opted in.

[00:12:07] Nathan: So don’t just like. Mass e mass mail to the PR address for our creator. Like it has to be, Hey, would you read this? But then what Sahil would do is he’d find something like in his book, he has this graph of time spent with your children by age and how, like you spend tons of time with your kids when they’re little and then it really drops off.

[00:12:28] Nathan: And so all the parents, you know, that’s what was highlighted. And yeah, the specific ask was like, read this and if you enjoy it, will you share this? And so often it’d be those photos that got shared and a bunch of other, uh, authors, you’d get some version of. Um, I did that as well. Like my book is very visual and that worked super well.

[00:12:46] Nathan: Yeah. And then other authors being like, yep. About six months after publishing, I was like, oh, I should have been made a book that was much easier to share a snippet of or much more visual.

[00:12:56] Haley: Yeah. Um, this is not something that was shared, but I did just think about it and I think it’s a great idea.

[00:13:01] Nathan: Go.

[00:13:01] Haley: I can’t wait.

[00:13:02] Haley: My friend Hannah, who I actually met through the Creator Leaders group Yep. She did all of the, um, drawings for Cody Sanchez’s book, main Street Millionaire.

[00:13:13] Chelsea: Mm-hmm.

[00:13:13] Haley: And she has a very large audience. And so when you think about your street team, like how easy it would, would it be for you to go out and create those, those drawings or visuals in your book using AI now?

[00:13:24] Haley: Um, but AI doesn’t have an audience. Hannah does have an audience. Mm. And so she actually didn’t have the capacity to do all of the drawings in the short amount of time. I actually loved it. She told this story on LinkedIn recently about how Cody had dmd her in Instagram and was like, I love, I, I love your work and I’d love to include you in my book.

[00:13:41] Haley: And she responded and she was like, there’s no possible way that I could do this in the amount of time. And Cody responded and said some version of. What would have to be true for you to prioritize this project? And so Hannah went out and she found like five different collaborators that did very similar work that she did.

[00:13:57] Haley: And so, but collectively across, you know, set what the five of them, they had an audience of well over a million. And so they were all then sharing Cody’s book, you know, the animations and the drawings in Cody’s book. And so that’s just like who you could consider her part of Cody’s Street team. Yeah. You know, because she was obviously a part of the book, but yeah.

[00:14:16] Nathan: One that stood out to me is how deliberately people think about Instagram stories.

[00:14:21] Haley: Oh yeah, that was an interesting one.

[00:14:22] Nathan: Like I, I just do some things and I post some stories and I’m like, oh, this should probably be on stories. Really? The rest of you harassed me about like, I can’t believe you went to this event and didn’t post anything about it on stories.

[00:14:32] Haley: Yeah.

[00:14:33] Nathan: It’s actually a sarcastic remark, like, oh, you finally posted on stories. Good job.

[00:14:37] Haley: Mm-hmm.

[00:14:38] Nathan: Um, just as picture

[00:14:39] Haley: sounds, right?

[00:14:40] Nathan: Yeah. But everyone was saying basically people with these huge accounts, like a million to 5 million followers. They don’t post like, just as things happen.

[00:14:51] Haley: Mm-hmm.

[00:14:51] Nathan: They pump, they mostly post sets of three stories and basically their reasoning was if some, if someone, if you’re gonna pop up in someone’s stories list, you want them to interact with each of the stories.

[00:15:04] Nathan: And if you get to, you know, five or 10 or, and I do this too, you see someone who posted 17 stories in a row and you’re like, skip.

[00:15:10] Chelsea: Yeah.

[00:15:11] Nathan: Because you’re there might be good stuff in you. Yeah. Mm-hmm. So they will post three stories. Then nothing for 24 hours and then three stories again.

[00:15:19] Chelsea: Mm-hmm.

[00:15:19] Nathan: And so it’s like this package thing that’s showing up every 24 to 36 hours rather than a constant drip of

[00:15:27] Chelsea: here’s what’s going on in my life.

[00:15:28] Haley: Sticking on the Instagram theme, one of our guests had a very viral and like public experience on tv. Mm-hmm. And so they had a clip that’s 12 from 12 years ago that still gets millions and millions of views and it’s pinned, uh, to their Instagram like page. And I thought that was really interesting because a lot of people are moving so fast with the time.

[00:15:52] Haley: And so that clip or iterations of that clip still today in 2025. 12, 15 years later still draws um, attention at the same rate that it did when it actually happened. And so don’t be afraid of leveraging old con, we, everybody talks about like leveraging and repurposing content, but like 12 years, that’s a long time.

[00:16:12] Haley: Right. Um, but that is really the first step into like, or first kind of open gate into her content for a lot of people. So yeah. I thought that was really interesting. Are we posting thing? Are we something Chelsea? Can Nathan post anything? I dunno

[00:16:24] Chelsea: if people would recognize. 12 years ago, Nathan,

[00:16:28] Nathan: I was four,

[00:16:31] Haley: a hundred percent.

[00:16:33] Chelsea: But there was a lot of conversations about repurposing content. Yeah. There was, don’t make things harder on yourself than you need to be. Figure out ways to, you know, create that flywheel of using concept platform.

[00:16:43] Nathan: Yeah. That came up a

[00:16:43] Chelsea: lot. Yeah.

[00:16:44] Nathan: And actually looking at the library of all your past talks, um, and saying like, you have a ton of material here, posted a bunch of different ways.

[00:16:52] Nathan: One thing that stood out to me about a few of the TV appearances that people talked about. They would make another video about something else and use a clip as B-roll or a hook or something from the TV appearance. ’cause it gave instant credibility. Oh

[00:17:07] Haley: yeah.

[00:17:07] Nathan: And then they’d go on to make their separate point.

[00:17:09] Haley: Mm-hmm.

[00:17:10] Nathan: And so when you see, you know, like, oh, here’s this national TV appearance. And then you can make content about whatever you want.

[00:17:16] Haley: Mm-hmm.

[00:17:17] Nathan: Um, and you’re like, oh. I mean, from an Instagram perspective, it’s like, okay, what’s your title hook? What’s your visual hook? And it’s like, well, that is a pretty good visual hook of you.

[00:17:25] Nathan: Right. On national television.

[00:17:26] Chelsea: Yeah.

[00:17:27] Haley: Yeah. Okay. Still sticking to this Instagram theme, because I think this is, is relevant to the conversation. Uh, we talked about trial reels being a good testing ground, but several people, which I thought was really interesting. And this is again, one where the room was totally split, but several people talked about instead of posting or testing content in trial reels, they were testing content in TikTok.

[00:17:49] Haley: And then if it did well on TikTok Yes. Then they would move it over to Instagram so they weren’t even messing around or playing with trial reels. I’m sure following these conversations, they absolutely will. Um, but several of them that were not playing around with TikTok are gonna start testing the ground and sharing that content on TikTok, see how well it does there.

[00:18:04] Haley: Mm-hmm. And then move it over to Instagram, which is where they certainly feel like is a. Um, their deeper audience lives and exists on Instagram, but access to new audiences, obviously. And it’s just, they said, I think they said it was like a good testing ground for virality.

[00:18:20] Nathan: Yeah. And just the quality of the idea and the packaging and the delivery and all of that.

[00:18:24] Haley: Mm-hmm.

[00:18:24] Nathan: And I think, ’cause on TikTok what people find is they can just post as much as you want. It feels like much more of a, I was gonna say a slot machine. And it is in that sense of like, put it out there and see what happens. But like a very, uh, like merit based. It’s just like, how good does this stand on its own?

[00:18:42] Chelsea: Mm-hmm.

[00:18:42] Nathan: Whereas often if you’re posting Instagram or somewhere else, it’s like, how much does my audience already like this and resonate with it.

[00:18:49] Chelsea: I was thinking about the idea of a book launch too, and we’ve been talking about like a podcast tour for you and what it’s gonna look like to do, you know, however many, and someone was talking about their 15 minute podcast

[00:19:02] Haley: Oh.

[00:19:02] Chelsea: Appearance, that this was a very idea, idea. I thought that was really good as well. Mm-hmm. Um. So they were saying basically, instead of doing these hour long whole podcast where you say the same thing over, you tell your whole story over and over. They’re 15 minute appearances. You block ’em in a couple days.

[00:19:19] Chelsea: You tell the people what you’re gonna talk about, what questions to ask me, and then you just have a really snappy 15 minute conversation. Yeah. And you’re able to get through the points that you need to and be on all these appearances without spending 60 hours in.

[00:19:33] Haley: What was interesting about this one was how, how in, um.

[00:19:37] Haley: How the audience took, like essentially the rules, how they followed the rules. Yes. And so the rules were you have 15 minutes, there’s no fluff, there’s no like chit chatter in the beginning, and here’s exactly what you’re talking about. And, uh, they said that, you know, the, the podcaster, whatever, whoever it was.

[00:19:55] Haley: And also what’s important to note on this one is they were micro creators. Yeah, yeah. Thank you. And so they were people that had smaller audiences. So they actually went out to their audience. They said, we are going to be doing this book launch and we’d love to have these small micro appearances on your podcast.

[00:20:12] Haley: And so they were super excited because they normally wouldn’t have had access to someone like this. Right. And so rather than capitalizing on one large audience, they spread their time over several small audiences was like, which I thought was a really smart idea, and really activated the street team.

[00:20:28] Haley: Mm-hmm. Um, it was just like one additional tactic on, on. Leveraging those micro creators because they’re strong in numbers. Yeah.

[00:20:35] Nathan: Well I thought it was so clever, uh, first making the appearance on the podcast an incentive. So that was the street team, and it was like, in most cases it was, Hey, if you sell at least 10 copies of the book or 20, something like that, there’s a criteria.

[00:20:50] Nathan: Then you’re eligible to be selected to have the author appear on your podcast. Doesn’t matter how big your podcast is, it’s like this reach. And so then people would apply, you know, meet the threshold and then apply, and then they get selected. It’s like, oh wow. I, this person that I love their content, I’ve learned so much from them.

[00:21:07] Nathan: Uh, I now get to interview them on my show and there’ll be credibility that I have forever. So that was one thing that was really clever, you know, being able to use that as a reward. The other thing that I thought was clever is the way they packaged it, of like teaching people how to make this a great episode.

[00:21:22] Nathan: Mm-hmm. Because like, if I did it, it’s like, okay, great. There’s now 20, 15 minute in interviews with Nathan, like, okay, why are these little things scattered around? But what they, you know, what the team said is you can add your commentary, the lessons you’ve learned from this author, and you can interweave the actual interview with the author.

[00:21:43] Nathan: Mm-hmm. So you can tee it up, don’t ask background questions or all that. Like, you can say that, and then you put in the, the 15 minutes with the author and then

[00:21:51] Haley: Yeah.

[00:21:51] Nathan: You know, three minutes of takeaway. Now you’ve got a, a full 30 minute episode that’s uniquely yours. And, you know, not the copycat of, we’ve all heard the authors on the podcast where they just hit the exact same talking points over and over again.

[00:22:04] Nathan: Mm-hmm. Yeah. And this made something unique.

[00:22:06] Haley: Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Let’s take a pause really quick. Okay. And let’s lean into a little bit of a debate. And I would love for you to put in the comments wherever you’re watching Instagram, who knows what this is gonna become, but put in the comments what your vote is.

[00:22:20] Haley: Okay. This is because the next thing we’re gonna talk about is audio book strategy. Right? So here’s the debate. This is an internal debate that we have, uh, and I love to ask people about it, um, because we all have varying different opinions. Mm-hmm. Let’s say that you listen to a book. Do you say that you read the book If, or is that I listened to the book.

[00:22:40] Haley: Mm-hmm. So if you listen to a book on audiobook, audible, does it count as reading Audible? Does it count as reading it? Yeah. So if someone says, have you read? A cord of Thorn and Roses. We’ll stick to fairy smut. Have you read aar? Are you gonna say Actually, we’ll, we’ll stick to one. That’s true for Nathan.

[00:22:57] Haley: Nathan, have you read Fourth Wing?

[00:22:59] Nathan: I have, and I have read it. Not listened to it.

[00:23:02] Haley: Okay. Okay. Um, Chelsea, have you read Fourth Wing?

[00:23:05] Chelsea: I have not.

[00:23:06] Haley: Oh gosh. You know the answer to that. What’s fine with you? I know. Um, okay. So

[00:23:10] Nathan: But as an example Right.

[00:23:12] Haley: But

[00:23:12] Nathan: as an example. Yeah. Um, with. Unreasonable hospitality. Yes. I would say I have read Unreasonable Hospitality.

[00:23:18] Haley: But you haven’t,

[00:23:19] Nathan: but there’s people on the, you’re lying the team who’d be like, Nope. You listen to it. It does not count.

[00:23:23] Haley: Yeah.

[00:23:24] Nathan: I’m like, I consume the information. What more do you want from

[00:23:26] Haley: me? So please vote in the comments.

[00:23:28] Nathan: Does listening count as reading?

[00:23:29] Haley: Does listening count as reading? Yeah. Yeah. Okay.

[00:23:32] Haley: Moving on to the, the valuable, uh, part of this is one of the participants. I thought this was really interesting because, um, their book Outsells their audio book Outsells the physical book. Yeah. Which is out Becoming

[00:23:45] Nathan: Out Sells Digital Outsells, Kindle Hardcover and paperback.

[00:23:50] Haley: Yes. Combined, which is becoming.

[00:23:51] Haley: Increasingly more common.

[00:23:53] Nathan: Yeah. All these people aren’t actually reading books.

[00:23:55] Haley: Yeah. Well, what, what made,

[00:23:58] Nathan: sorry, did not bias the boat right

[00:23:59] Haley: there. Yeah. But what made this one more interesting is, um, there are guests, well, we’ll say that come in and actually provide, like, like read a section of the book. Um, and so I thought that was really interesting.

[00:24:15] Haley: But, uh, because she’s, they’re looping in more people, uh, into the audio experience.

[00:24:19] Nathan: Well, the example was do doing a, uh, memoir. Yes. And then, you know, you’re telling your stories and all this and you’re reading it, but then having. People, like the actual humans who played a part in that story go and read their section.

[00:24:33] Haley: Mm-hmm.

[00:24:33] Nathan: And that making it like this, uh, you know, three dimensional audio experience in that way. They also mentioned that it took a few more takes, you know, for someone who has not done like a hundred podcast episodes are more, and you know, to deliver it well,

[00:24:49] Haley: yeah. But just, but thinking through this, I.

[00:24:52] Haley: Admit that I am a listener of books. Okay. Um, actually that’s not true. I whisper sync, so I go back and forth, but Okay. I’ll say 90. You

[00:25:01] Nathan: only do that,

[00:25:02] Haley: whatever, 90. So you guess I read it exactly. 90% of it I am consuming through my ears, not through my eyes. Um, but I think that’s an interesting component because I think that’s gonna become more and more, uh, more and more common.

[00:25:14] Haley: And, uh, so, you know, everybody there was very interested, uh, in that part for, for that particular guest. Uh, they were all very interested in that because that was a huge component of, uh, their strategy as of what had made their last book so successful.

[00:25:27] Nathan: Yeah. And I think we’re seeing more people make unique audio experiences.

[00:25:32] Haley: Yeah.

[00:25:32] Nathan: Um, this came up at a, at a dinner conversation in a smaller group, but people were talking about how important it is they believe for the author to read the book themselves.

[00:25:40] Chelsea: Yeah.

[00:25:40] Nathan: Like, you’re gonna get. You know, six or eight hours or whatever of mm-hmm. The words come through. It should be in your voice as well.

[00:25:47] Nathan: You want, what if

[00:25:48] Chelsea: they have a really odd voice?

[00:25:50] Nathan: Is this your way of telling me that I shouldn’t read my own audio book?

[00:25:53] Haley: I was trying to find the right segue into this, and here we are. So, okay. Well this is, this is a real thing though, because once upon a time, I did a couple of e episodes of a podcast for a project that I worked on at Kit called Creator Sessions.

[00:26:06] Haley: Right. And so we did a podcast version of this, like YouTube show, and I remember nobody likes to hear their voice. Yeah. It’s kind of gross. Yeah. Nobody likes to hear it. In fact, I, I just heard Dermot Kennedy, who’s my favorite artist, his new album just came out way to the Woods, FYI. But he just. He, I just heard him say that he never, ever, ever listens to his music.

[00:26:25] Haley: He can only listen to him doing a cover. That’s the only thing that he can listen to him doing. But everybody hates the sound of their voice. Mm-hmm. Right. All that to say, I listened to this podcast episode and I was like, oh my gosh, I kind of like the way that I sound. And I was like, I was like, did you guys like doctor this at all?

[00:26:42] Haley: And he’s like, yeah, obviously. And I was like, oh

[00:26:44] shit.

[00:26:47] Chelsea: Yeah. Like, you could’ve just give that to me, just

[00:26:51] Haley: so you know. Yeah. And I was like, for the first time ever in my life, I liked the way I sounded. Yeah. And it’s because it wasn’t how I sounded.

[00:27:00] Nathan: I feel like the only two acceptable ways to answer that question are No, not at all.

[00:27:05] Haley: Yeah.

[00:27:05] Nathan: And yeah, we did a little bit and here’s exactly what you can do in the future to recreate it.

[00:27:10] Haley: Exactly. Yeah. Exactly.

[00:27:12] Nathan: But, uh, yeah, obviously is

[00:27:14] Haley: Yeah, a little harsh.

[00:27:16] Nathan: Ego shattering.

[00:27:17] Haley: Yeah. Ego shattering. Yeah. Um, so anyways,

[00:27:21] Nathan: uh, let’s go to, we can jump around to tactics and all of that, but, uh, I wanna go to what’s something that you heard someone do of like a, it could be a level of preparation or

[00:27:32] Haley: Ooh,

[00:27:32] Nathan: attention detail, all of that, that you’re like.

[00:27:35] Nathan: Oh wow. The, like there basically, we’ll call this segment. There are levels to this game.

[00:27:41] Haley: Yes, there are levels to this game. Okay. I, I, this was actually probably one of my most, my favorite conversations that we dug into. And the reason why it, I knew it was good and I knew that everybody loved this conversation because this was.

[00:27:54] Haley: Kind of during someone’s hot seat, and then someone made this suggestion and then the entire hot seat go was commandeered like by those parts. And they were like digging in asking a million questions. Now I think like six of the guests, six or seven of the guests had been on a diary of a CEO.

[00:28:10] Nathan: Yeah. Or Mel Robbins, or like

[00:28:12] Haley: Yeah.

[00:28:12] Haley: Make some really big time podcasts. Yeah. And so the particular conversation was centered around the amount of preparation that goes into preparing to be a guest on a podcast, but more importantly, um, the. Difference the amount of, how, how would we say it? The, the, um, variance of things that, the stories that they tell across the different podcasts that they go on.

[00:28:40] Haley: So for example, uh, the, a lot of times, and we know this to be true now, Nathan, not to put you on blast here, but like I’ve heard your same stories. We’ve worked together for a long time, but I’ve heard them a lot.

[00:28:50] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:28:50] Haley: And sometimes you get into the habit, it’s easy to get into the habit of saying the same story on every podcast that you go onto.

[00:28:56] Haley: So this particular guest was saying only 20% of her content is the same.

[00:29:00] Nathan: Right.

[00:29:01] Haley: 20%.

[00:29:02] Nathan: And the other 80% is unique to that show and has

[00:29:04] Haley: been

[00:29:04] Nathan: prepped. Mm-hmm.

[00:29:05] Haley: And they, and prep it Extreme, extreme prep in, in an effort to make it essentially like, is this a viral clip? Mm-hmm. And it’s practiced and it was like, what, 80 hours of preparation is what I think was sharing.

[00:29:17] Haley: Yeah. It was between 60

[00:29:18] Chelsea: and a hundred hours,

[00:29:19] Nathan: depending

[00:29:19] Chelsea: on the show

[00:29:19] Nathan: preparation for a podcast appearance. So that,

[00:29:24] Haley: how many hours did we prep for this one?

[00:29:26] Nathan: For this one, uh, hours. Ultimately six minutes. It’d be in decimals. That’s why we have our laptops with it. Um,

[00:29:36] Haley: yeah.

[00:29:37] Nathan: But it, it was just this moment where it was like, oh, and you could see like half the room was like, there are levels to this.

[00:29:42] Haley: Yeah.

[00:29:43] Nathan: And these are like podcast appearances Yes. That have done millions of views. Mm-hmm.

[00:29:46] Haley: Yes.

[00:29:47] Nathan: And so you’re like, oh, wow. And so then this woman who we won’t name specifically though, I don’t think she would mind, but she was basically saying, yeah. And I know how to tell every one of my stories. With a, a different hook specifically.

[00:30:00] Haley: Mm-hmm.

[00:30:01] Nathan: And, you know, and then she just rattled off. She’s like, oh yeah, hooks are easy. She rattles ’em off and everyone’s like, hold on. And they’re like writing down all of her

[00:30:07] Haley: hooks. Yeah. There was one that I loved though, that it took six times. She went on six different podcast episodes. It was never used in a clip and it was always edited out, but she kept trying to make that one a thing.

[00:30:19] Haley: And so finally it was the sixth time and it turned in to be like one of the most viral, uh, clips that, that, uh, has been shared across any of the podcast episodes. And I loved that because it was like, she didn’t, she didn’t get up. She’s like, I know this is gonna hit.

[00:30:32] Nathan: It was like a comedian working their material.

[00:30:34] Nathan: Yeah. At all the little, you know, comedy clubs and then be like, okay, that’s the way that I tell it. That works.

[00:30:38] Haley: Yeah. Yeah. And I think, you know, we can talk about this, but because so many of them had been on Diary of a CEO, many of them talked about that experience. Right. And so those episodes during the recording are, are.

[00:30:50] Haley: Four hours. Yeah. Six hours and a half hours. Hours was, it was three to four hours. Yeah. Mm-hmm. And so, you know, there’s oftentimes for you to, like, they’re obviously editing it down and they’re trying to, you know, make the most viral and compelling and easy to listen to episode. Uh, and so they had a lot of times to p practice that particular clip, but,

[00:31:06] Nathan: well, that was the thing that I, I assumed that they just sat down, had a long conversation that was really well researched and that got to good stories and that that spread.

[00:31:14] Haley: Yeah.

[00:31:15] Nathan: What we learned is a lot of these top shows are recorded for the clips.

[00:31:19] Haley: Yes.

[00:31:19] Nathan: So they’ve gone through the back catalog of everything you’ve put out on social, what are the most viral things you’ve ever said over the last five years.

[00:31:26] Haley: Yeah.

[00:31:26] Nathan: And then it’s not even, they try to weave the conversation to get to that story.

[00:31:31] Nathan: They just ask you the question.

[00:31:32] Haley: Mm-hmm. They

[00:31:33] Nathan: just

[00:31:33] Haley: tee it up to magic. They have magic editors. Yeah.

[00:31:35] Nathan: They just tee it up so that you deliver your viral clip and they tee it up for another one. And I was like, oh, that’s. Fascinat.

[00:31:42] Haley: I mean, are we surprised by this? Mm-hmm. We like, know Grace. Our, our friend Grace Miller, who Nathan obviously just had his episode come out.

[00:31:47] Haley: She’s the, uh, director of experimentation and failure for Diary of a ceo EO. Yeah. So this doesn’t surprise me in any way, shape, or form, but I think that it’s like a conversation. Uh, I thought that was a really, really interesting, I just, I wouldn’t have guessed.

[00:32:00] Chelsea: Yeah,

[00:32:00] Haley: I wouldn’t have guessed. So it’s

[00:32:01] Chelsea: not just as a guest prepping to be on shows, but as a host Yeah.

[00:32:03] Chelsea: Doing your research know

[00:32:05] Haley: and

[00:32:05] Chelsea: how you’re gonna get,

[00:32:06] Haley: someone said this to me, I actually don’t even know if this was at the event, honestly, but someone was like, if it feels like magic, it’s probably magic. Right? It’s like they’re not sitting down and just having this naturally free flowing conversation.

[00:32:18] Haley: There were so much preparation that went into it, and so it might feel like it was just a viral clip that went because, you know, but it was practiced meticulously. And I thought that was really interesting because that’s just like a level of preparation that’s like Kobe Bryant level preparation. Yeah.

[00:32:30] Haley: And, um, they’re going viral for a reason. Mm-hmm. Because they’re practicing their craft. Well,

[00:32:36] Nathan: and that’s the thing of. Realizing, oh, these people aren’t just naturally good on camera, or like, you’re gifted and charismatic. It’s like, no, you have refined this. Yeah. And you have practiced it over and over again.

[00:32:48] Haley: Yeah.

[00:32:48] Nathan: To a level beyond, probably like five times. I would’ve assumed that someone’s doing like 15 to 20 hours of prep for the most important podcast they’re going on. It’s like, no, 80 hours.

[00:32:58] Haley: Where would you find 80 hours? Chelsea’s like can confirm

[00:33:04] Chelsea: he does not have

[00:33:05] Haley: 80 hours. Absolutely not. He does not have 80 hours.

[00:33:08] Chelsea: Unless this is

[00:33:08] Haley: one. Unless it’s while he’s flying or something, you know, and his like, plane is flying itself, you know, and then he’s

[00:33:13] Nathan: turn on the autopilot and then just rehearse your hooks.

[00:33:15] Haley: Exactly. Exactly.

[00:33:17] Nathan: My favorite thing, when this person was rattling off their hooks, she said one and everyone was, she was like, blah, blah, blah.

[00:33:22] Nathan: Here’s the, you know. And then everyone was like, waiting for the story. Oh. ’cause we’re all, we’re all like, and how

[00:33:28] Haley: we were

[00:33:28] Nathan: hooked. Oh, that was, that was you. She’s like, no, that’s just a framework for a hook that you can use. Yeah. You know, there’s no story to follow. Like, oh,

[00:33:36] Haley: flawless execution there.

[00:33:38] Flawless.

[00:33:38] Nathan: Okay. What other moments or stories when you realize like, oh, people are playing on a different level than what I expected? Mm.

[00:33:45] Haley: This one might be kind of the opposite actually of, of what it is that we’re talking about, which I thought was really interesting. I kind of wanna expose this person. Um, but I feel like it’s a great, um, I think it’s a great comparison.

[00:34:01] Haley: Like, you know, it’s, yeah, it’s soft and dark, whatever. What’s the

[00:34:07] Nathan: soft and dark? Those are not opposites.

[00:34:09] Haley: No, no. Yeah. Oh yeah. That’s hard. So I think a good opposite to that is, and I’m gonna expose who this one came from, is our friend Jefferson Fisher, because Jefferson Fisher’s stuff in a lot of, like, his, his growth on Instagram and social media has been insane.

[00:34:29] Nathan: Yeah. Zero to 5 million?

[00:34:31] Haley: No, he has 6.2.

[00:34:32] Nathan: Well, but zero to 5 million in two years.

[00:34:34] Haley: Okay. Yeah. It, it’s insane. And he’s obviously, come on your podcast and I’ve had the chance to, you know, go, I, I invited myself to dinner with him last time and um, I was very excited about it. But Jefferson is exactly who he is in person as he is online.

[00:34:51] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:34:51] Haley: And I think the thing that makes him so compelling is that he is not putting on. Any show and people can kind of feel that, right? He’s, he, I actually, he said, he said, I’m different from y’all. He said, I talk slow. I think slow. And, and, and he didn’t say that. He said, exactly. And I was like, I was like, that’s great.

[00:35:13] Haley: Oh my gosh. I’m obsessed with you.

[00:35:14] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:35:15] Haley: Um, but all that to say, that was just a vast It was, it was, it was very different. Mm-hmm. From other people’s. And that is what his secret sauce actually is. It’s, you know, it’s, it’s the, it the fact that it’s in his car mm-hmm. It’s under produced. And so sometimes you just find what the magic is.

[00:35:33] Haley: Mm-hmm. For you, for you. And that’s what ends up working for you. And so sometimes people would be digging into this like, deep, deep, deep, you know, like work and Jefferson’s like, I’m just talking in my car. Yeah. You know, I’m just,

[00:35:46] Nathan: you know, and he, he says that, and it’s totally true. But also speaking of levels to this game, right?

[00:35:52] Haley: Yeah.

[00:35:52] Nathan: As a trial attorney. He has done thousands and thousands of hours in very high stakes environments in a courtroom.

[00:35:59] Haley: Yes. Yeah. Yes.

[00:36:00] Nathan: You know, convincing 12 people Yeah. That they need to side with this client or, you know

[00:36:05] Yeah.

[00:36:05] Nathan: Whatever that is. And so you often see people who are very good, who had very important skills in one area, and then translate to the creator world.

[00:36:13] Nathan: Yeah. And, and they, they come in at the top of the game. Um, but it was interesting. There was another creator that I thought was interesting who doesn’t have social on their phone, like at all. And it’s like, wait, but you post all the time. Oh.

[00:36:28] Chelsea: Mm-hmm.

[00:36:28] Nathan: And they were like, uh, I, yes, I do post all the time, or my account posts all the time, and they record all the videos and they just record a video, send to their team and say like, this is a story.

[00:36:38] Nathan: This, and basically talking about how at that, you know, half a million plus followers. There’s interesting things happening on social all the time. It’s not just even that you’re scrolling other people’s feeds. It’s like the comments and the interactions and the famous people following you on your own feed can draw you back in every like two or three minutes and they’re like, it’s honestly not a great way to live.

[00:36:58] Nathan: Yeah. Mm-hmm. And so I interact with it on like a weekly basis.

[00:37:00] Haley: Yeah. This person was protecting their mental health. Like really? Yeah. They were protecting their, their space, their mindset. And it’s funny because then there were other creators in the room that were like, I’ve posted, I’ve edited. Mm-hmm. I post, yeah, I do absolutely everything.

[00:37:14] Haley: I engage with every, I surprised same.

[00:37:16] Chelsea: Mm-hmm.

[00:37:17] Haley: Um, and I loved it. Mm-hmm. I love both versions of it, to be honest. The point is, is that they, they all know what works, what works for them.

[00:37:24] Chelsea: Yep.

[00:37:24] Haley: And I could be wrong, but you’ll have to remind me if this is actually true. I feel like we can say this person’s name, but maybe you told me this, James Clear.

[00:37:33] Haley: For a long time had his assistant have his password to social media. Is this right?

[00:37:39] Nathan: Uh, he said this on stage at craft commerce, I believe.

[00:37:41] Haley: Okay. Okay.

[00:37:41] Nathan: Where,

[00:37:42] Haley: so we can’t talk about it. Yep,

[00:37:43] Nathan: yep. Um, where during the work week, his assistant changes his social media passwords and then doesn’t give him his passwords back until he completes his work taking

[00:37:53] Chelsea: notes,

[00:37:55] Haley: change Nathan’s

[00:37:56] Chelsea: passwords.

[00:37:57] Haley: That’s so good. That’s

[00:37:58] Chelsea: so good.

[00:37:59] Haley: Yeah. But

[00:38:00] Chelsea: yeah, I did think it was interesting how many people that have millions of followers or you know, somewhere in there are like, no, I’m the one posting writing and editing. Editing and editing all of it. Yeah. They are doing it. And you’d be amazed at how much that doesn’t happen.

[00:38:14] Chelsea: So that was really cool to hear.

[00:38:16] Haley: Okay. What about the fun AI things that people are doing? That’s like obviously a, everybody’s talking about it, right? Mm-hmm. Ai, we, should we talk about it? I don’t know. I feel like we could, let’s do, yeah. Okay. What about the fun ai things that people are doing?

[00:38:30] Nathan: One that I liked was someone was saying they had an almost like an AI checkpoint.

[00:38:36] Haley: Oh, yeah. Mm-hmm.

[00:38:36] Nathan: Where it was basically like, here’s, here’s how I want to show up in the world. Uh, these are my values, these are, this is my writing style and all of this. And so everything they would post, they would, you know, go and ask Claude in this custom project, like, does this match how I wanna show up in the world?

[00:38:55] Nathan: And be like, yep, totally. Except for these two things. Mm-hmm. You know, you told me you want incorporate those, and it’s like, oh, right, okay, let me go out and do it. And so many people use generative AI to generate things, but I thought it was such an interesting aspect to have, you know, sort of the, the checkpoint and like.

[00:39:11] Nathan: Answer the question, am I showing up authentically in line with how I said I wanna show up?

[00:39:15] Haley: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Because then it would come back and it would say, you say that you wanna show up in this way, and then it would give you actually feedback on how that does not.

[00:39:23] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:39:24] Haley: How you’re not showing up in the way that you said that you wanted to.

[00:39:26] Haley: Mm-hmm.

[00:39:26] Nathan: And I, I do a version of that where, you know, if you, if you ask ai, is this good? It’ll be like, yeah, it’s so good. Great job. You’re the best writer. It’s so complimentary. And you’re like, I am the best writer. Wow.

[00:39:37] Haley: Wow.

[00:39:38] Nathan: But then if you say, Hey, what are the logical fallacies, or like the flaws in my argument, it’ll be like, oh, well actually, you know, and it’ll just then tear apart your writing and you’re just like, oh, I feel terrible now.

[00:39:48] Haley: Yeah.

[00:39:48] Nathan: But it’s so good to get that feedback. Mm-hmm. Because. Then you become a better writer, better communicator. Mm-hmm. It will spread and reach more people. Mm-hmm. And so I love that idea that a checkpoint or using it for very critical feedback,

[00:40:01] Chelsea: and this person does have a team too, or suggested that you could use this for your team too, to make sure that they’re running it too, if they’re writing any copy for you.

[00:40:08] Chelsea: Yep.

[00:40:08] Haley: Something else I thought was really interesting was how many of these authors leverage speaking into their Monet monetization strategy. But specifically what was really interesting about this is the various different rates that people charge for speaking and the psychology that goes into setting your speaking rates.

[00:40:27] Haley: And so, um, and the

[00:40:28] Nathan: range was something like 20,000 to $250,000 per time. Exactly. And so you had the whole range. There were a lot in the. Call it 50 to a hundred thousand. Yeah. That was probably where the, the bell Curve averaged out.

[00:40:40] Haley: Yeah. And so there were several people that were like, oh, I’m worried about going up to that next tier.

[00:40:45] Haley: Right. And so, um, I think we can say who said this one? Yeah. But this one came from James Clear, and you could imagine that he warrants a pretty high speaking fee. And what he said that he did, which I loved this, is that he would do five speaking engagements at a specific rate, and then he would raise it Yeah.

[00:41:02] Haley: And then five engagements at the next rate, and then raise it. And so he just continued to set that bar to see where he basically, how what his ceiling he was he testing?

[00:41:12] Nathan: Mm-hmm. He just

[00:41:12] Haley: like, yeah,

[00:41:13] Nathan: let’s find

[00:41:13] Haley: out. And so he figured out what his ceiling was and he tried to raise it and it, it, it,

[00:41:17] Nathan: he got fewer bookings.

[00:41:19] Nathan: Yeah. And he was like, oh, all right.

[00:41:20] Haley: Yeah.

[00:41:21] Nathan: And it, when that came up, people were like, but if I do that, I won’t get, you know, if I raise my rates, people won’t book me anymore. And this is like a, a key part of my income and how I grew my audience. And he was like, then you just bring your rate back down slightly,

[00:41:34] Haley: Uhhuh, and he, you know, he, but then you also, you figure out where your rate was, should be.

[00:41:38] Haley: Right? Yeah. And I think what’s interesting too is like, let’s, let’s be candid about this, right? There were a couple of people, if we’re, if we’re saying there’s three tiers mm-hmm. There are people in the room that are tier one and we’ll call tier one, you know, 50 to 80,000 or 50 to 50 to a hundred thousand.

[00:41:52] Haley: And then there were people in the room that were like a hundred to 175,000. And then there were people in the room that were 175 and above. Right. And so they were basically saying is you’re trying to go from tier one to tier two to tier three. And so they didn’t wanna move up from tier two to tier three because then they’re competing with the people in tier three.

[00:42:11] Nathan: Right.

[00:42:12] Haley: And so it was a really interesting, like the psychology of it, you know? Mm-hmm. As they’re saying, well, I don’t wanna move into that tier because then I become Mel Robbins tier.

[00:42:20] Nathan: Right.

[00:42:20] Haley: And then I’m competing against and

[00:42:22] Nathan: someone’s trying to decide, well, if I’m gonna pay that much money, then I might as well go book Exactly.

[00:42:26] Nathan: A Mel Robbins or a James Clear or someone like that.

[00:42:28] Haley: Yeah. All that to say it was very interesting because everybody in that room really could probably demand a tier three rate, but the psychology of them thinking mm-hmm. That they couldn’t is what really limited them from getting that, right. Mm-hmm.

[00:42:41] Nathan: And I’ve heard that, you know, if you hear people talk about like, oh, charge more, you’re worth more than that or everything else, it’s like you get into mindset and all of these things.

[00:42:50] Nathan: And James’ solution was so simple. ’cause he is like, give every five talks, raise your, raise your price by five grand.

[00:42:56] Chelsea: Yeah.

[00:42:56] Nathan: You know, or whatever the number is for you. And you’re like, oh

[00:42:59] Chelsea: yeah. And he said that ahead of time. So he wasn’t thinking about it in the moment of questioning about it. And so even

[00:43:04] Nathan: when he was, yeah, in the moment when he is like, oh, maybe I, I don’t know if I’m worth this or will I get more gig?

[00:43:09] Nathan: He’s like, no, I made an agreement with myself that I would raise it. And if I. Don’t get any gigs in the next three months, then I’ll drop it slightly.

[00:43:15] Haley: I mean, we, we’ve talked about this, but like, I just got my first paid speaking gig and I still can’t believe that they paid me.

[00:43:21] Nathan: Can we talk about how much they paid you?

[00:43:22] Nathan: No, because I,

[00:43:23] Haley: okay. We can talk about the fact that I’m officially a higher paid speaker than Nathan.

[00:43:30] Nathan: It’s true.

[00:43:30] Chelsea: Let’s

[00:43:31] Haley: talk about that. Um,

[00:43:32] Nathan: and I was like, that’s, no one’s ever paid me that much to speak.

[00:43:35] Haley: Yeah. But, but it’s in my point is, is that I don’t have a huge social media following and I was not speaking on behalf of Kit.

[00:43:43] Haley: I was speaking on a totally separate topic. Mm-hmm. And so for somebody like me, I have no audience, no meaningful audience. Right, right. Outside of my relationship with kid, I guess. Um, and I was, and no website and I was able to land a pretty decent speaking rate, honestly. Mm-hmm. And so I’m still surprised by that.

[00:44:00] Haley: And so the psychology of that, in my mind, I’m like, if I could get this. You can get 10 times that.

[00:44:06] Nathan: Yeah. I think another angle to talk about is just a few of the people in the room who are really impressive. Um, one person is Madeline Macintosh, who is a CEO and founder of Authors Equity. So she and James, you know, of co-founded Authors Equity Together, which is this new publisher and they really have the perfect blend between self-publishing and traditional publishing and, and all of that.

[00:44:31] Nathan: And I knew she was impressive. Like, uh, I’ve talked to her a good amount because Authors Equity was publishing my book. It was just, you realize there’s levels to it where like, oh, she was the CEO of Penguin Random House us. And so it’s like, wait, you actually got to the top of one of, if not the largest publishers in the, in the United States, and then said, oh, I can’t change it from the inside.

[00:44:53] Nathan: I’m gonna leave and start my own public, you know, and change it from the outside.

[00:44:56] Haley: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:44:56] Nathan: And there was this other moment where someone, you know, they’re asking all these questions about like, oh, well you, how do you get distribution? And they’re like, well, it’s through. You know, Simon Schuster provides our distribution into all these physical retailers, and someone’s like, well, what if.

[00:45:08] Nathan: Simon Schuster sells and that deal goes away. And she’s just like, well, I’m on the board of Simon and Schuster. So, you know, you’re like, oh, there’s okay.

[00:45:15] Chelsea: Yeah, I think I actually wanna change my fan girl answer. I didn’t made know going into it that Madeline was gonna be who I was most excited about.

[00:45:22] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:45:22] Chelsea: And she’s incredible. So I think leaving it, I was so impressed by her.

[00:45:27] Haley: Yeah. You wanna talk about my worst nightmare with Madeline? I’ll tell you.

[00:45:31] Nathan: Let’s do it. You brought it up, so,

[00:45:33] Haley: okay. Fair. Um, I’ve never, I would say I don’t make mistakes like this. I haven’t made a big mistake like this in a long time.

[00:45:42] Haley: And, um, we had very limited time. I’m getting nervous just thinking about it. Um, we had very limited time, uh, to record an episode with Nathan and James and Madeline. Yeah. And now I am dangerous with video equipment. We’ll say, you know, I’m da meaning like, I know my way around. I can put something together, but it’s not my full-time job sort of thing.

[00:46:03] Haley: And I don’t do that professionally. Right. I, I’m a little out of practice in that. I ha I’ve done this on the road before. All that to say Nathan, James, and Madeline, they’re 25 minutes into a really great,

[00:46:16] Nathan: the future of publishing, you know,

[00:46:17] Haley: conversation.

[00:46:18] Nathan: So good.

[00:46:19] Haley: Like, I mean, they’re really good. And I look down at the Zoom recorder and I see that there is not a red light blinking.

[00:46:27] Nathan: We’re not recording audio.

[00:46:30] Haley: I. My nervous system has never been so stressed out. And I was like, I’m gonna have to interrupt Nathan.

[00:46:37] Nathan: Well, also, like James has to get to the airport.

[00:46:39] Haley: James has to get run a very tight timeline. Yeah, we’re on a tight timeline. I’m gonna have to interrupt this. And I’m like thinking, I’m like, Hailey, you’re gonna interrupt Madeline James clear and Nathan’s finally recording with them.

[00:46:50] Haley: You’re gonna keep it cool. You’re gonna keep it cool. And I just, I was like, Hey, team. And I’ve never been so mortified in my entire life. Now I knew it wasn’t recording. And both Nathan and Nathan’s like, I’ve got the backup audio on my phone. And I was like, no, no you don’t. No, we’re sorry guys. We’re starting over.

[00:47:05] Haley: And James like, just test the audio. And my brain, I’m like. Okay, I’ll just test it. And I

[00:47:11] Chelsea: knew you were very calm, cooled about it. Like

[00:47:15] Haley: Yeah.

[00:47:15] Chelsea: It, I would not have known that you were dying inside.

[00:47:18] Haley: It was the most mortifying thing that has happened to me in a very, very long time. I don’t, not one that you wanna screw up.

[00:47:28] Nathan: Yeah. That was, uh, that was a rough one. It, you know, we had enough time to record, we were definitely cutting it close and then starting over 20 minutes or 25 minutes in. Yeah, we, we tightened it up a little bit.

[00:47:38] Haley: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:47:39] Nathan: And then I think James was like, don’t worry about it. I like to get out of the car at the airport and just walk straight and not have to pause at all.

[00:47:47] Haley: Yeah.

[00:47:47] Nathan: You know, I don’t wanna have to wait in line and all of that. I don’t want to sit at the gate. So, and he texted it later, you know, he is like, what did he text? It was like three things. He’s like, uh, made it on the plane. There was a fantastic event. Tell Hailey, don’t worry about the issues like that happens.

[00:48:04] Nathan: And it had the perfect moment where. I walked straight through security, I walked straight onto the plane. Like I only had to pause briefly as I want.

[00:48:12] Haley: Yeah, that’s crazy. Um, I, I listened back to the audio today and I, I, I couldn’t even listen to it because it, it gave me hives thinking about it. I was like, I can’t hear myself.

[00:48:23] Haley: I can’t hear myself. The, uh, oh God, it was so bad.

[00:48:25] Nathan: So stressful.

[00:48:26] Haley: Yeah, so stressful.

[00:48:27] Chelsea: On that note, James was, both of were so lovely and passion, they’re like compassionate about it and we’re just like, it’s fine, don’t worry. Uhhuh. And also the entire group was, the entire group

[00:48:38] Haley: was, was, oh, the entire group was the best.

[00:48:38] Chelsea: So nice and just like really wonderful people.

[00:48:42] Nathan: Uh, okay. There was another funny moment.

[00:48:44] Haley: Oh no.

[00:48:44] Nathan: Where?

[00:48:46] Chelsea: Probably with Hailey,

[00:48:47] Haley: IM sure. I was like, was it me? What did I do?

[00:48:49] Nathan: Well, there was the time when you knocked glass. I spilled my wine glass knocked over the wine glass. Yeah, it balls on the, like granite countertop makes so much noise.

[00:48:57] Haley: Yeah.

[00:48:58] Nathan: And somehow it doesn’t break. Mm-hmm.

[00:48:59] Haley: It did not break. The, the funnier part about it though is it was a fresh glass of rose that went a hundred percent down my leg and in my shoe. So my sock, just my left sock

[00:49:10] Nathan: just has a little

[00:49:11] Haley: sopping wet with really nice rose.

[00:49:14] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:49:14] Haley: So, um, that was not ideal. Yeah.

[00:49:18] Haley: You know, it just like poured into

[00:49:19] Nathan: your shoe, you know, it wouldn’t be an event without a ha moment like that. Yeah.

[00:49:24] Haley: Uh, yeah.

[00:49:24] Nathan: Uh, but where I was going is there was an author, you know, I was talking about what were the most impactful things in your book launch and all of this. And there was an author there who had recently hit the New York Times list and they said, um, they, they had a whole thing where they were like, email is still undefeated.

[00:49:42] Haley: Oh,

[00:49:42] Nathan: and then when I talk about email strategies, like you can email way more often than you think. Like the bulk of the sales came from email and that’s a common trait that we had from around the room. But the funny moment is like a little while later, someone was like, oh, well you know, on Creator network you can do this and this and that and you can cross recommend and it works so well.

[00:49:59] Nathan: And I always love it when you know, our customers are doing the selling for us Uhhuh and he, and he goes, yeah, I’m not on Kit. And like the room erupt and they start like mass shaming. So we have like the top authors in the world shaming this other author for not using Kit, and we’re all just sitting back like, no, no, do your thing.

[00:50:19] Chelsea: Yeah, I didn’t say anything. I’ll watch, I’ll watch.

[00:50:22] Nathan: And they’re like, this would be, if you use Kit, you could have done this. And you, in your launch you could have like had, yeah, when you did your newsletter tour, they could have clicked one button and opted in. You’re like, this is great.

[00:50:32] Haley: Yeah, keep going.

[00:50:33] Haley: Same, keep going. It’s all about curating the right room. You know what I mean? Mm-hmm. Yeah. I loved that. That was fun. Oh, I, we should, we could. Talk about the venue. Mm-hmm. Because the venue was just give the venue a little bit of a shout out.

[00:50:45] Chelsea: Yeah.

[00:50:45] Haley: We did it at this insane, amazing venue called South Hall Farm and in, in, just outside of, uh, Nashville and Franklin and their team was insane.

[00:50:57] Haley: Amazing. Did a great job. Yeah. So, so wonderful. But it’s like a 500 acre regenerative farm. And so everything was farm to table, so the food was exceptional. Mm-hmm. The service was exceptional. The venue, like it was beautiful. And we also had the most perfect weather.

[00:51:12] Nathan: It was

[00:51:13] Haley: great. Yeah. You had the best weather.

[00:51:14] Chelsea: It was perfect.

[00:51:15] Haley: Yeah. Not a bad, I had the sexiest room.

[00:51:18] Nathan: You had the gr a great room except for those couches. I don’t know what was up with those couches.

[00:51:21] Haley: They should reconsider those couches. They. We’re not the ideal, uh, for the podcast scene. They were not the most ideal.

[00:51:30] Nathan: The dining table setup I thought

[00:51:31] Haley: was great.

[00:51:32] Nathan: Worked great.

[00:51:32] Haley: Okay. Chelsea, one of the ones that you and I talked about afterwards was, um, how creators or authors were leveraging their local bookstore. Mm-hmm. You love that?

[00:51:40] Chelsea: Mm-hmm. Yep. I did. You know, like I said, one of my favorite parts about this was getting to hear everything that we’re gonna use for your tactics, for launching your book.

[00:51:48] Chelsea: Um, and so are we

[00:51:49] Haley: gonna use Hearts on Fire down the street? It’s a romance. It’s a romance bookstore.

[00:51:54] Nathan: Ladders of Wealth.

[00:51:56] Haley: Shout out Hearts on fire. Yep. Um, but seriously, they keep going.

[00:52:00] Chelsea: Um, but on that note, uh, using your local indie bookstores or just indie bookstores across the country, actually, um, to support them and also spread, you know.

[00:52:10] Chelsea: The word about their books through these indie bookstores.

[00:52:13] Haley: This is a good one to, we can totally give credit where credit’s due in this one too. The two people that do this really, really well are Tory Dunlap and James Clear. And both of them have, um, their local bookstore, uh, in their hometown. And what was great is James talked about, um, for his bookstore, and I don’t remember the name of it, but we could probably add it in the comments, but for his bookstore, it works out great for them and it works out great for him because he has all of his books shipped there and then they do all of the distribution.

[00:52:39] Haley: He can go down and he can sign and, you know, sign the books. And then every time if he does, you know, he’ll do author signings in that local bookstore fairly often. And so, I can’t remember the exact number. Do you remember what it was? It was like how many books they have sold?

[00:52:52] Nathan: Oh, it was Acra something Crazy number.

[00:52:54] Nathan: ’cause he, for all his speaking engagements, he’s like, yeah, just buy books for every attendee and do it from this, this bookstore.

[00:53:00] Haley: Yeah.

[00:53:00] Nathan: And then, uh, Tory Dunlap was talking about the same thing of having, I think she picked four or five indie bookstores around the country. That she particularly wanted to partner with, and so she would have them by the books.

[00:53:10] Nathan: Um, and then she would, you know, also, you know, make sure they had signed copies and, and all of that.

[00:53:16] Haley: Mm-hmm.

[00:53:17] Nathan: There’s another fun one where, uh, will Guera was talking about, uh, a partnership that they did for Unreasonable Hospitality of getting the book in all of these, um, in all the airport bookstores.

[00:53:30] Haley: Oh, yeah.

[00:53:31] Nathan: Oh, and then he would specifically go around each time he’s in the airport. Right. You’re on book tour. You’re in the airport a lot. Like he would sign the four copies that were there, and then you’d take a photo and be like, all right. You know? Yeah. Whatever the Hudson books or, you know, next to Gate 34 at Nashville.

[00:53:45] Haley: Yep.

[00:53:46] Nathan: And then people, he had examples of people. Realizing they were close, like seeing that Instagram story, realizing they’re close to the airport, buying a refundable plane ticket, going through security, buying the signed copy of the book, taking a photo and sending it to ’em like, you know, 30 minutes later and be like, I got your book.

[00:54:02] Nathan: Also, I’m not traveling anywhere today. Let me refund my ticket and then go back out through security.

[00:54:06] Haley: One of the things that I really loved, and this is just like to kind of summarize some of this is. You know, sometimes you have this perception in your mind that it’s easy for people.

[00:54:18] Mm-hmm.

[00:54:18] Haley: You’re like, you’re Will guera.

[00:54:20] Chelsea: Mm-hmm.

[00:54:20] Haley: You’re James Clear, you’re Sawhill bloom, right? Yeah. And the thing that I loved is how they’re, they were all grinding.

[00:54:29] Chelsea: Mm-hmm.

[00:54:30] Haley: Right? Like they were all doing, like, you know, when he talked about Sawhill doing things, unscalable things

[00:54:35] Nathan: like

[00:54:35] Haley: you, you think

[00:54:36] Nathan: individually mailing

[00:54:37] Haley: out Yes. Himself actually.

[00:54:39] Haley: Even better to, to elaborate on the Sawhill story is that his publisher, he wanted to gift a lot of books and he ended up buying those books himself because they wouldn’t essentially allow him to gift that many books. And he knew innately that that was gonna be a huge component to his launch, building out his street team.

[00:54:59] Haley: So he did all he he grinded.

[00:55:02] Yeah.

[00:55:02] Haley: And sometimes you have this perception that, okay, it’s Sawhill Bloom. He has a huge social following. It’s Will Guera. He has a huge social following. The reality is, is that these authors are all doing really hard things mm-hmm. To make their books a success. And not saying that, you know, everybody’s not doing that, but they’re doing it and it’s, yeah.

[00:55:23] Nathan: Well another example of that is, uh, Madeline had a lot of stories since she’s published over a thousand books,

[00:55:29] Haley: Uhhuh,

[00:55:29] Nathan: you know, and, and been in the industry for so long. She was like, look, so many of these authors. Who we read and they’re like so gifted. Like, uh, she brought up Amore Tolls.

[00:55:38] Haley: Oh yeah.

[00:55:38] Nathan: Right. Who wrote a gentleman in Moscow and, and, uh, rules of Civility and others, like these fantastic books that I love.

[00:55:44] Nathan: And she was like, no, he built like bookstore by bookstore. He went into every single indie bookstore, built a relationship with them and ’cause I, I think he was in like finance or he had some corporate career, he was like, I wanna be a writer. And so as part of this transition, as you’ve written in the books, he just, he, he was grinding it out.

[00:56:02] Nathan: And I, I, you know, I read a gentleman, Moscow, I’m like, this is incredible. Like, this is the kind of thing that someone should just, you know, you write that and it just sells on its own. It’s like, no, it really doesn’t. It takes. The hard work over many years to build it up.

[00:56:14] Haley: And I mean, if we talk about James Clear in that light, right?

[00:56:16] Haley: We’ve talked about this a lot of times you’ve taught on it as well. Like you were actually with him and you built this out. But you wonder, you’re like, okay, atomic Habits is a great book, and so you would assume that people are gonna naturally go rate it five stars on Amazon. But did they do that on their own or did they do that with a very slight push that was built right in a strategic flywheel leveraging kit?

[00:56:38] Chelsea: Yep.

[00:56:38] Haley: Um, right. Like we were encouraging people, or the backend systems, that tactics that he had built we’re encouraging people to actually rate the book five stars. Um, and that is a huge component in his strategy. And so it’s not just luck. Luck. That

[00:56:51] Nathan: is a clever one. Yeah. We’ll, we’ll talk about that.

[00:56:53] Nathan: That’s something that, uh, we actually have an automation for this inside of Kit that you can mm-hmm. Can copy in. But inspired by James, um. Where basically what he does is inside of Atomic Habits, there’s various things, additional chapters, um, you know, places to go deep in it, like lead magnet type things where if you put in your, you know, in the book, you put in the RL and then go to that to download the resource.

[00:57:15] Nathan: Mm-hmm. So then what he does is he only links to those from in the book. And so then he tags someone who signs up for that as a reader. So now he doesn’t just have an email subscriber. He, he knows this person has at least read, you know, to to page 74 in the book. Yeah. Where, where that was. And then he waits a little bit, he has a follow-up sequence because you want people not just to buy the book, but you want them to read it and you want them not just read the book, but you want ’em to finish it.

[00:57:39] Haley: Mm-hmm.

[00:57:40] Nathan: And so then the follow-up sequence is where he’s reminding them, you know, through other content to come back and, and finish the book. And then after a little bit of time where he’s like, you’ve probably finished it by now, he sends an email and doesn’t say, will you go rate the book? He says, how did you like the.

[00:57:57] Nathan: One to five stars. Each of those being a little image that you can click on and it’s a link. And so depending on what they click, if they click five stars, he says, thanks so much. I’m glad you loved it. Would you post that to Amazon and Good reads? Yep. If they click one to four stars, he says, uh, you know, I’d love to hear more about what you didn’t like or all that.

[00:58:17] Nathan: And that goes to internal feedback.

[00:58:19] Haley: But the better part about that one is, is that he says, what do you, I love this part because he’s like, what don’t you like? Or What feedback do you have? And that’s a whole deliverability hack, right? Because he is getting them to actually respond to the email. And reply and reply, which the reply is a, it’s a great deliverability hack.

[00:58:35] Haley: So all the negative response, he’s getting them to take action, which is further. So, which is

[00:58:39] Nathan: Benefits

[00:58:39] Haley: him. Yeah. Benefits him even more.

[00:58:41] Nathan: And then the positive response, he is like, amazing. I’m glad you loved it. Go tell the world. And so you end up at this flywheel where, you know, the more book sales you have, the more readers.

[00:58:49] Nathan: The more readers, the more five star reviews, the more five star reviews, the more sales. And you know, that’s how he sold well, a, a part of selling 30 million copies of Atomic Habits.

[00:58:59] Haley: I mean 30 million. I loved this though, at the event, um, I had bought a bunch of books. I bought a book of pretty much everyone that was there.

[00:59:08] Haley: So, you know, I don’t know, I just thought it would be cool.

[00:59:10] Nathan: Yeah, it ended up I saw a lot of people taking the social content.

[00:59:14] Haley: Yeah.

[00:59:15] Nathan: Like recording a video of the books all laid out.

[00:59:17] Haley: Yeah.

[00:59:17] Nathan: And it’s interesting from a little like a status thing because it was their book in amongst

[00:59:23] Haley: Yes.

[00:59:24] Nathan: All of these others.

[00:59:25] Nathan: ’cause everyone. I, I’ve talked to probably 10 people who was like, who were like, I cannot believe that you invited me to this.

[00:59:32] Haley: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:59:32] Nathan: And we’re like, I can’t believe that you came. You

[00:59:34] Haley: know, that was a very last minute edition. Actually. I had them all sent to our teammate Alyssa, who lives in Franklin. I had them all I sent to Alyssa’s house because I was like, I just feel like we should have all their books.

[00:59:43] Haley: Yeah. Right. So I’m glad I did that very last minute. Um, but, um, the, the thing I loved was that James, he’s like, I haven’t even seen the one that says 30 million copies on it. He’s like, I don’t, I don’t have a copy of my book that says 30 million. Could you fricking imagine Nathan? Well, maybe, maybe, maybe.

[01:00:03] Haley: Ladders of Wealth. Yeah. Crushes it and sells 30 million copies.

[01:00:06] Nathan: Visualize it. We’re we’re manifesting a million. Yeah.

[01:00:08] Haley: That’s the, okay. We’re manifesting a million. Yeah. But, uh, 30 million, like good night.

[01:00:13] Nathan: Yeah. Yeah.

[01:00:13] Haley: Good night. But all Okay. It wasn’t magic. It, the book is so good.

[01:00:19] Chelsea: Mm-hmm.

[01:00:19] Haley: But I think like when I, every single person, like talking about people playing a different game.

[01:00:25] Haley: They were playing, they’re, they’re, they’re building the systems that is making them as successful as they are, which was just, it was, like I said, it was kind of, I did not belong in the room. I loved that I got to put the room together, but I promise you, I, I, I did not belong in the room. And there were a couple moments where I was like, wow, I’ve, in the room, same,

[01:00:48] Nathan: very much the same.

[01:00:48] Nathan: But they were all, they were all so grateful. Like they were the number of text, email, they never made us

[01:00:52] Chelsea: feel like that at all. You know, it was just

[01:00:54] Nathan: like, they were all just like, thank you so much for creating this space. Yeah. Uh, some of them were like, I only get invited to like, marketing conferences. I love that.

[01:01:02] Haley: Yeah.

[01:01:02] Nathan: I’m in the room with all of my, my, uh, peers as authors. So I think that also goes to another point, the number of people that reach out to you and I and said when the book comes out

[01:01:13] Haley: Yep.

[01:01:13] Nathan: Here are the five ways I can help. You know, or like, you better tell me, you know?

[01:01:17] Chelsea: Yep.

[01:01:18] Nathan: How I can email or, you know, promote the book launch or any of that.

[01:01:21] Nathan: And it’s just such an important. Thing of this, like invest in the community, give, like we could have, we know all those people well enough that we could have sent an email and been like, Hey, book is launching, you know, in a month, can I come on your podcast? Can you send emails for me? Or all of that? And it’d be like, they’d be like, yeah, sure.

[01:01:38] Nathan: I only get asked that like 10 times a week, but you know, we’ll try to slot you in with everybody else.

[01:01:44] Haley: Yeah.

[01:01:45] Nathan: And. The promotion for the book or, uh, getting them to talk about kit was not the goal of the event.

[01:01:53] Haley: No.

[01:01:53] Nathan: But you realize that like investing in them, their businesses, their relationships mm-hmm. Made them be like, okay, so how can we help you?

[01:02:00] Haley: A hundred percent. Yeah. Okay. I love to talk about failures too. Mm-hmm. And let me tell you, a failure, not a failure, it’s just like a miss. I think. So we had in this room it was. Ex pretty much exclusively nonfiction authors. Yeah. We had a couple of people that fell that were a slightly outside

[01:02:16] Nathan: little memoir.

[01:02:17] Haley: Yeah. And, um, all that to say, we talked a lot about this with Madeline actually, is that there’s the nonfiction world and there’s the fiction world, and both groups do incredibly, they do things really, really well. Right. And so this world, the nonfiction world, they’re typically pretty dang excellent marketers.

[01:02:37] Haley: Mm-hmm. Right? So they’re very good at the growing the thought leader business where then you have the nonfiction world. And the nonfiction world is insane at like book talk and grassroots marketing. This the fiction world, the, sorry, the fiction world Yep. Is insane at that grassroots book talk sort of thing.

[01:02:52] Haley: And the two of them I wish. And for the next one, we’ll, we’ll do something where we actually bring together a few nonfiction and fiction authors, right? Because then you’re learning from someone that’s doing something slightly different. And I love to do this in the creator world as well, where we’re saying, okay, you’re a food content creator and you’re a, you know, a business coach.

[01:03:10] Haley: Like, let’s help you learn from one another. Because there’s often a lot of things that we’re all like in our own lane, doing our own thing. Mm-hmm. And we forget to look, you know. At the strategies tactic. Yeah.

[01:03:21] Nathan: People who said like, ’cause it started like, oh, what could nonfiction learn from fiction or all of that.

[01:03:27] Nathan: And then a few people were like, actually you should really learn from is the romance authors.

[01:03:31] Haley: Ooh. Yeah.

[01:03:31] Nathan: Because the volume is so much higher, like units sold, they’re, they also tend to be very digital first, you know, of. Tons of Kindle sales.

[01:03:41] Haley: You know what was shocking to me is how many people in the room didn’t know what smut was.

[01:03:45] Haley: Tori Dunlap and I are like, let me tell you Nathan also, ’cause as I said, you know, maybe not smut, but fourth wing. There you

[01:03:53] Nathan: go. Yeah,

[01:03:53] Haley: you go. And

[01:03:54] Nathan: I also like, love when Madeline was like, yeah, you all have good book sales numbers, but like romance, you know, are these categories Uhhuh? Like they put sales numbers put all of you.

[01:04:03] Haley: Yeah. Sarah Jane Mass. Like, and you know, like I said, her being on call her daddy like very recently, come on. I mean, I,

[01:04:08] Nathan: we also tried to brainstorm what James clear’s call her daddy would be like, for some reason that didn’t, didn’t take off yet. No,

[01:04:15] Haley: no.

[01:04:15] Nathan: It’ll happen.

[01:04:16] Haley: Um, but so true. Yeah. I was very, I loved my contribution to the, to the group.

[01:04:20] Haley: I was like, well, let me, I got you. I’m gonna bring one value add and it’s gonna be, it’s gonna be smut. It’s gonna be smut. Tori was right there with me. Yeah. She, she led the charge though, so yeah,

[01:04:30] Nathan: she was all about it. Something else that stood out to me was the whole conversation around year two and beyond.

[01:04:36] Nathan: Because a lot of these people have, you know, launched their first or their second book, it’s sold well, maybe had a big spike on the New York Times list and then started to drop off. And they all wanna talk about, okay, where do you go from here? And basically everyone that has had sales that have, you know, endured or stayed consistent.

[01:04:52] Nathan: Never stopped promoting the book.

[01:04:53] Haley: Mm-hmm.

[01:04:54] Nathan: And they went to theming it around specific events, like, how can I tie my book to high school graduation? Mm-hmm. How can I tie my book to Mother’s Day, father, you know, whatever to

[01:05:04] Haley: Yeah.

[01:05:04] Nathan: Um, you know, the new New Year, uh, to Christmas. Anything that’s like giftable.

[01:05:10] Nathan: Then they’re just promoting relentlessly. Mm-hmm. And they’re like figuring out a way to put their book into a bunch of different places.

[01:05:16] Haley: I just remembered one that I loved that we forgot to talk about, um, is the experience of reading a book in a specific place. So one of the authors posted, like on social media, it was like every, he kept posting, he wanted people to be reading his book on the beach.

[01:05:32] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[01:05:32] Haley: And like he wanted to create that team. That’s the

[01:05:34] Nathan: vibe of the book.

[01:05:35] Haley: Yes.

[01:05:35] Nathan: Yeah.

[01:05:36] Haley: Yeah. It’s the vibe of the book. So the, the social media posts that went out that we’re constantly sharing or like anytime somebody, and it just became the identity of the book is to read it in a place that provides you, brings you extreme amounts of peace.

[01:05:50] Haley: Mm-hmm. And so that is something that lives on in a totally different way. You’re like, oh. I’m like, oh, I saw my friend Chelsea reading this book on the beach. I’m gonna read this book on the beach. Yeah. You know, um, loved, I helped

[01:06:01] Nathan: shape the identity of the book.

[01:06:02] Haley: Yeah.

[01:06:02] Nathan: Which was kind of crazy to think about.

[01:06:04] Nathan: ’cause in that example. It was after the book was released.

[01:06:07] Haley: Yes.

[01:06:08] Nathan: And there’s these broader themes where you’re like, of course they would fit in with that, but it wasn’t a deliberate thing until starting to notice this trend. And then it’s like, okay. Let’s take the spark of something and let’s make it a whole thing.

[01:06:18] Haley: Mm-hmm.

[01:06:18] Nathan: And that’s driven a ton of sales and, you know, it shaped this

[01:06:22] Haley: identity. And for many of the authors in the room, their, their books were very evergreen. You know, like Jefferson Fisher’s book, the next conversation is never gonna go out of style. Right. I can promise you this world needs the help of learning how to have hard conversations more easily.

[01:06:38] Haley: Um, but all that to say, that was an interesting part in the conversation because, um, many people were like just riding the wave of that one book. James still hasn’t written a second book. Right. So hasn’t, but he’s built in all of these systems to continue to support the growth of that book. And I think actually it was James that was talking about graduation, you know, you’re going off into the real world, uh, child.

[01:06:58] Haley: Mm-hmm. You should probably build some habits, you know? Um, but yeah, no, that was a, that was an interesting conversation too, thinking about everyone’s different mindset around how they promote and continue to promote these evergreen books. Um, or if their book maybe feels less timeless.

[01:07:13] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[01:07:13] Haley: Um. Where they think or how they think about promoting it.

[01:07:17] Nathan: This event was such a hit. Yeah. That we were immediately like, okay, we have to do more masterminds. And we’ve done quite a few and they

[01:07:23] Haley: Yeah.

[01:07:23] Nathan: You know, but we wanted to make a space for it. And so that’s something that we’re doing deliberately in New York where in, you know, Kitsu, Boise and Chicago, you can host things here and, and they’re, but they’re not made for events.

[01:07:35] Nathan: Mm-hmm. And so with New York, you’ve got me to splurge for the, the big, fancy expensive space.

[01:07:41] Haley: And I love spending other people’s money,

[01:07:44] Nathan: particularly mine.

[01:07:45] Haley: Yeah.

[01:07:45] Nathan: Um, and our idea is that we wanna host a lot more of these things. We wanna partner with specific creators where they could bring in an audience, we could bring it as well, we can co-teach, facilitate this

[01:07:57] Chelsea: uhhuh

[01:07:57] Nathan: and just create this community.

[01:07:59] Nathan: ’cause really all we did, I mean, I don’t wanna downplay the amount of work, but we didn’t.

[01:08:04] Chelsea: Yes. Let’s say we, there’s a,

[01:08:08] Nathan: it’s not like we planned a conference worth of programming or all of that.

[01:08:11] Chelsea: Mm-hmm.

[01:08:12] Nathan: We curated a great group of people. Brought them to an excellent venue and then said, Hey, what’s on your mind?

[01:08:18] Nathan: What do you wanna learn? We curated the programming around that and really leaned on the people in the room. Mm-hmm. And so it’s a format that we can do over and over again. Really a format that any creator could do where they could say, look, I have friends who are at my level, uh, or a little bit beyond, um, and I want to, um, you know, I wanna learn from them, so let me book a space.

[01:08:39] Nathan: We all split the cost in some way and let’s make this happen. And that’s something that, you know, James and I did early on with our mastermind and it was fun. Now, I don’t know, seven, 10 years later,

[01:08:50] Haley: I was gonna say was the last time that y’all did a mastermind with you and your group of guys?

[01:08:56] Nathan: 2017, probably nine.

[01:08:59] Nathan: Yeah, probably eight or nine years ago.

[01:09:01] Haley: Yeah.

[01:09:01] Chelsea: Was it that photo on the bridge that James hasn’t aged a single day?

[01:09:05] Nathan: No. That was the first mastermind that we,

[01:09:07] Chelsea: Nathan has aged 10 years.

[01:09:09] Haley: Dramatic. He was a teen and now he’s mad.

[01:09:13] Nathan: Yeah. I did show Chelsea that photo and she’s like, James, looking exactly the same,

[01:09:16] Chelsea: is drinking the

[01:09:17] Nathan: fountain of Youth.

[01:09:19] Haley: Yeah. Yeah.

[01:09:21] Chelsea: That continue.

[01:09:22] Haley: Yes. Sorry.

[01:09:22] Nathan: Yeah. Uh, no, that was, that was the whole thing.

[01:09:26] Haley: As far as New York goes, there’s nothing more. Um, I, when I think about my role, and sometimes it’s, it’s hard to like quantify my role sometimes, but I, there’s nothing better than bringing people together in a room, whether it’s craft and commerce or a small scale event, like a mastermind like this, or it’s at another event, right.

[01:09:45] Haley: You’re just creating a dinner or something like that. Um, the unique thing about this particular event is that it is hard. To get a room full of New York Times bestsellers together. Right, right. Because there are very few people that are at that level. And so I think a really good takeaway is you find someone, to your point, you find a group of people that are all at very, you know, your stage and maybe one or two levels above where you’re at.

[01:10:10] Haley: Um, and you all get to work on this shared goal together. And I mean really that’s how you and James’ relationship was established in the first place. And look where y’all are at now

[01:10:20] Nathan: when I think that’s an important thing to call out. ’cause most people would say like, well of course you can do that because you’re friends with

[01:10:26] Haley: Right

[01:10:26] Nathan: people at this, at this caliber.

[01:10:27] Nathan: And it’s like, that’s not where we started. Right. We had nothing going on. And we just said, Hey. We have similar goals, we’re equally driven. Let’s, let’s make something together and then, you know, like build our businesses together.

[01:10:40] Haley: Yeah. And this is pre Atomic Habits, James. Yeah. You know, and

[01:10:43] Nathan: by like six years.

[01:10:44] Haley: Yeah. By, by a lot. By a lot. So, no. Okay.

[01:10:47] Nathan: This ties into actually my, um, strategy for city league sports.

[01:10:53] Haley: Okay. What,

[01:10:54] Nathan: I’m so excited for you to see what happen. Where are we

[01:10:56] Haley: going with this,

[01:10:57] Nathan: this transition? I am not very gifted when it comes to soccer and volleyball. I did not play either sport in like high school or anything like that.

[01:11:05] Nathan: And I often wanna play on teams that are better than my skill level

[01:11:09] Haley: uhhuh. And

[01:11:09] Nathan: so you’d say like in that, like, oh, you don’t belong here. The way that you belong is you curate the team. If you register the team, do all of the work, recruit everybody and all of that. They’re like, like on my soccer team, they’re like, you’re not good enough to play on this team.

[01:11:25] Nathan: But like, we’re all really grateful. Like none of us would be here. None of us

[01:11:27] Haley: would’ve put this together.

[01:11:28] Nathan: Would’ve put it together. And so they’re, yeah, of course Stanley gets to play, you know, on the volleyball team, you know, I can recruit all of these college athletes to come play with me. Uhhuh teach me how to play the game, and no one is like.

[01:11:39] Nathan: Why are you here? How do we kick you off the team? Mm-hmm. They’re like, I’m so glad you put it together. Now will you please get better?

[01:11:44] Haley: They’re investing, they’re, well, you know, it’s funny because I do talk about this every once in a while because my friends think it’s weird that you like to play volleyball.

[01:11:52] Haley: They think it’s weird that as an adult man, you wanna learn how to play volleyball. And I’m like, I think it’s awesome. But all that to say, um, I am invested in you getting better at this point. I am invested in you transitioning behind the 10 foot line and keeping the ball in front of you on a quick attack.

[01:12:07] Haley: Like that is, I am invested in it. And it sounds silly, but it really is true. It’s like I am, I am several levels above you. Yes.

[01:12:17] Chelsea: Several is generous, I think too.

[01:12:19] Haley: Yeah. Several. But, but no, I’m invested in your growth. Yeah. And

[01:12:22] Nathan: yeah, and, and I think the same thing is true for masterminds or events or something like that.

[01:12:26] Nathan: I’ve seen it over and over again where a creator will, you know, maybe they have 10,000 followers and they’re like, I don’t belong in the room of the people with 50,000 followers or revenue, or whatever the number is that you’re using.

[01:12:37] Haley: Yeah.

[01:12:38] Nathan: But they get in the room and they provide value because they’re the ones who curated it.

[01:12:43] Nathan: Mm-hmm. And so they’re the ones who pulled everybody together. And everyone, basically, two things happen. One people say like, yes, I’d love to come because of the other people in the room. You may not have the name pull yourself, but the people that you brought and you know, do. And then the second thing is, in your journey, you now have all of these other people, like my roster of, uh, you know, D one college athletes, uh, who are then invested in your journey.

[01:13:08] Nathan: And they’re like, oh, we wanna help you with your book launch, with whatever else. And you end up in this. It’s the, the cliche of like, you know, you are the average of the five people you surround yourself with. And so it’s like, okay, be really deliberate with how you curate that and it works. Very.

[01:13:21] Haley: That was my goal.

[01:13:22] Haley: I was just trying to get all the people in the room. I was like, how can I have all these people help me?

[01:13:27] Nathan: Yeah.

[01:13:27] Haley: On Nathan’s dime.

[01:13:30] Nathan: That’s right. All right, Chelsea. What? That

[01:13:31] Chelsea: actually was a really good analogy, so, okay. Thank you. I’m glad we went there. I was just gonna say too, also get on the plane, right?

[01:13:37] Chelsea: Mm-hmm. Like if somebody invites you somewhere. We had somebody fly in from what Belgium just for the day, even though they’re already a three time New York Times bestseller and you know, and then they flew back to Hong Kong or something the next day because they’re on a book tour and just like, get on the plane and go if you’re invited or you know, you just never know what you’re gonna learn.

[01:13:57] Chelsea: And you know, they sent us such a nice message of being like, this was so wonderful. I’m so glad I came and

[01:14:02] Nathan: we’re like, you flew for 24 hours to be here.

[01:14:04] Haley: Yeah, yeah.

[01:14:05] Chelsea: To be here for 48.

[01:14:06] Haley: Would you let Nathan fly 24 hours to go? Are we going

[01:14:09] Chelsea: back to Dubai again? Is this.

[01:14:13] Haley: I am not

[01:14:14] Chelsea: gonna

[01:14:14] Haley: say it. You

[01:14:14] Chelsea: said it.

[01:14:15] Haley: Now that I know

[01:14:16] Nathan: the value of being in the room.

[01:14:17] Nathan: Yes. All right. Chelsea, who’s approved in charge of my schedule Yes. Has just given Hailey permission to

[01:14:24] Haley: push

[01:14:24] Nathan: me all around the

[01:14:24] Haley: world. The entire reason why I hired Chelsea, I hired Chelsea, is to further manipulate Nathan. Let’s be honest. Yeah, exactly. So, um,

[01:14:33] Chelsea: control. Control. Mm-hmm. Control

[01:14:36] Nathan: now that this episode is fully off the rails.

[01:14:38] Haley: Yeah, exactly.

[01:14:39] Nathan: Any closing thoughts?

[01:14:40] Haley: Uh, let’s leave it at what Chelsea said, like get on the plane, be in the room, and if you can’t be in the room, create the room. Mm-hmm.

[01:14:47] Nathan: Yeah.

[01:14:47] Haley: Right. Because you can put in the effort to put together a stacked soccer volleyball team. Um, so if you can’t, if you can’t be in the room, create the room.

[01:14:55] Haley: Mm-hmm. And, um, I mean, that’s my favorite thing is, is creating an experience for other people. So, um. Sometimes you’re just not gonna get invited. And

[01:15:06] Chelsea: yeah,

[01:15:07] Haley: you can make the room,

[01:15:08] Chelsea: make it yourself.

[01:15:08] Nathan: I love that. If you enjoyed this episode, go to YouTube and search the Nathan Barry Show. Then hit subscribe and make sure to like the video and drop a comment.

[01:15:17] Nathan: I’d love to hear what some of your favorite parts of the video were, and also just who else do you think we should have on the show? Thank you so much for listening.

[00:00:00] Nathan: You probably know me as the founder of kit, which is an email marketing platform that automates your growth. But there’s actually another business that I started that most people dunno about. It’s a local newsletter called From Boise and I brought on the right person to run it. That person is Marissa LaBelle.

[00:00:13] Marissa: We recently started from Boise Dinner Club. We said, Hey, I’m thinking about this dinner club and if we’re gonna a hundred people, let’s try it. And we had 656 people say yes. And I was like. Oh boy. I guess we’re definitely doing this.

[00:00:25] Nathan: Our readers are some of the most engaged I’ve ever seen. I’d argue she has more influence with her list than most creators have with 10 times that number.

[00:00:32] Nathan: How this thing makes money.

[00:00:34] Marissa: Discount Cards. Dinner Club. I sold merch t-shirts. Stickers. I also had a meetup group called BFFs, and I planned different monthly meetups. Is monetizing it in a way that feels good and makes sense for everybody involved.

[00:00:46] Nathan: I love that. Today, Marissa and I get into how it all happened, the monetization experiments she ran, how she shaped the voice and personality of the emails, and what it took to go from working part-time on the newsletter.

[00:00:56] Nathan: The full-time. You crossed six figures in revenue last year. Mm-hmm. Which is a huge milestone. What were some of the points along the way where you were figuring out,

[00:01:04] Marissa: well, so

[00:01:10] Nathan: we’re gonna have a conversation about Boise, about starting things, uh, running small companies, the future of media and whatever else seems interesting.

[00:01:21] Guest 2: Yeah.

[00:01:21] Nathan: So, we’ll, we’ve got some things that we, we can talk through and then I’ll. We can also take some time and questions and all of that. So if there’s things that you wanna know, uh, but maybe we can kick it off with what made you choose Boise?

[00:01:33] Nathan: How’d you come to Boise?

[00:01:34] Marissa: So, despite the name of my newsletter, I’m actually not from Boise. I am from, um, uh, wheat Farm in eastern Oregon. And I actually came to Boise in 2011 to go to school to go to Boise State. The reason why I chose Boise is not as cool as the reason why I chose to stay in Boise. Um, I chose to come to Boise ’cause nobody else from my high school had come here.

[00:01:56] Marissa: I was kind of trying to get away. Um, but then after I graduated, I. Was just very, very lucky to land a job at Red Sky PR working for the amazing Jess Flynn. Mm-hmm. Who like changed my life and, um, in that job, I, it was where I started writing about Boise and like I just working downtown. I just became immersed in this whole world of Boise that I.

[00:02:20] Marissa: Didn’t know about as a student and um, yeah, I cannot imagine being anywhere else. Mm-hmm. What about you? How’d you, how’d you get to Boise?

[00:02:30] Nathan: Uh, well I was born here, so, uh, I was born if anyone’s run, has anyone run Raced River Creek. Maybe No, Russ has. There we go. Uh, so if you, if you go up toward, if you do the, the course for Race River Creek, uh, I was born in Rocky Canyon.

[00:02:45] Nathan: So you run by the little house. I was born in a tiny house before Tiny houses were cool. Um, I think it was just, ’cause it was just a very small house, um, but grew up in the mountains outside of, uh, outside of Boise, up towards city and um, yeah, went to Boise State. I don’t know. They just stayed here all along.

[00:03:05] Nathan: Everyone always asks like, um, why Boise? And it’s, I find it’s hard to explain, but I love it so much and I’ve traveled so many places. Um, but I’ve actually never been away from Boise for more than six weeks. Like, that is the longest period of time I’ve ever been away. I’ve been there like a couple of times, but everyone’s like, oh, you went somewhere else for college?

[00:03:25] Nathan: Nope, just always back to Boise. I think I’ve been to 38 countries or something. Uh, Boise is home. We’ll always be home. Um, and so, yeah, I guess, uh, by the way of a, a little bit of quick background. I went to Boise State for graphic design and then marketing, and then dropped out after two years, I think. Um, and then started a web design business.

[00:03:47] Nathan: Well, worked for a company called Unity out in Eagle, and just worked for a few Boise companies. And then have been doing my own thing for a long time. So I run a email marketing company called Kit, um, founded here in Boise, but we’re global and we do email marketing for, uh, all kinds of things. Uh, whether it’s big content creators or authors like a James Clear or Andrew Huberman to celebrities like Tom Brady and Dua Lipa and, and, uh.

[00:04:12] Nathan: Then we run some other newsletters that are very special to me. Like from Boise.

[00:04:16] Marissa: Yeah. Okay. So what made you wanna start a local newsletter about your hometown?

[00:04:23] Nathan: Okay, so that’s, everyone probably thinks, uh, that Marissa started from Boise. Actually, I started it. I’m not trying to take credit for her work.

[00:04:32] Nathan: That is just how it actually came to be. But, uh, a friend of mine named Andrew Wilkinson lives in Victoria, uh, British Columbia, which is this beautiful city, and he, he ran this newsletter called, um, capital Daily. And it was all about the news and events, um, in Victoria. And I, I love the format of email newsletters and that, that content, um, and just having such a local feel to it.

[00:04:56] Nathan: And so I saw what he did there and I was like, oh, I love Boise at least as much as you love Victoria. Like, I should do something like that. And actually we were up in McCall over Christmas, um, when would that have been? 2020.

[00:05:09] Guest 3: Mm-hmm.

[00:05:09] Nathan: Um, and just talking with family and I had this idea and, and we started brainstorming it and it was like, okay, we should actually make this happen.

[00:05:18] Nathan: And so I like wrote up and I, uh, format for it, like made, um, a job listing and it then it was actually Jess Flynn. Mm-hmm. Uh, who I’ve known for a long time. And Marissa has as well, who connected the two of us.

[00:05:33] Guest 4: Mm-hmm.

[00:05:33] Nathan: And like, I don’t know, a few dozen people applied for the, for the job, uh, as you know, the editor to take this, this concept and build it into something and.

[00:05:42] Nathan: Marissa was the person who completely stood out and was like, this is a great idea you have, here’s what it should be. And kind of

[00:05:51] Marissa: took charge from that. Like, I’m doing this.

[00:05:54] Nathan: Yeah. What was your experience when, uh, when Jess sent you the, the job listing?

[00:05:59] Marissa: Yeah, so, um, like I said, I, when I was working at Red Sky is like when I started writing about from Boise, which was.

[00:06:06] Marissa: Like 10, 11 years ago now. And actually like how I really started writing about Boise was, um, we had a client at Red Sky called B vep Boise Valley Economic Partnership. And I loved working, I loved having them as a client because I didn’t even know what economic development was when I started working there.

[00:06:23] Marissa: I was like 21. And, um, but I, we started this blog that I was in charge of called Grow Ideas here. Does anybody remember this? Okay, thanks Russ. Russ was every, so no one really read it, but, but it was called your ideas here. And, um, I mean, looking back from where I am now, it’s like an early from Boise, like I would, um, interview companies who were either like relocating or bringing their.

[00:06:47] Marissa: Companies here, um, you know, business owners, and I would like write these profiles. Um, basically what I do now. And so I’ve been doing that and then I started freelancing. And so I was still writing about Boise, but like for, you know, IVR and visit Idaho. And, um, then I had started working on reviving this music site called Go List in Boise.

[00:07:07] Marissa: Does anybody remember Go List in Boise? Yes, of course you do. Chili. Okay. So I was like, um, I was working on reviving that and then Jess sent me. This tweet and she’s like, do you know this guy? And I’m like, no, I don’t. Um, but that is, she was like, you’re made, this is made for you. And, um, and it totally was.

[00:07:29] Marissa: And you know, at the time I was also working at True Fort Music Fest and like freelancing, it was so easy for me to see the path of from Boise, like, you know, more so than anything else I’ve ever done. Um. And yeah, I just kinda hit the ground running. I mean, it was kind of hard for me to figure out what, I think I wrote like four really long stories and then was like, what am I, what is from Boise?

[00:07:50] Marissa: You know? ’cause it didn’t have any sort of, uh, brand And I had been freelance writing for other people and um, so I just wrote it from me and sent it out.

[00:08:00] Nathan: Yeah. And we pretty much had the same format from the beginning. Uhhuh of the long form story on Tuesday and then the, the Thursday of here’s what’s happening, uh, what to plan for the weekend.

[00:08:08] Guest 3: Mm-hmm.

[00:08:09] Nathan: And it was just, we grew it with a combination of social media. Um, we ran some Facebook ads. Mm-hmm. That was actually a funny moment of the Facebook ad that we ran for a while, was me walking through Freak Alley and just saying like, Hey, that’s Nathan. I started a local newsletter and I, I did it in Freak Alley so that people would, would notice the location, be like, oh, this is actually.

[00:08:32] Nathan: A Boise thing.

[00:08:32] Guest 2: Mm-hmm.

[00:08:33] Nathan: And so I’d be playing soccer, like, uh, indoor soccer or volleyball or something. And people that I only knew from that would be like, I saw you on Facebook, you have a newsletter. But it was fun as it grew over time. ’cause there’d be, um, all kinds of things that were just incredible to promote in Boise.

[00:08:50] Nathan: Like another friend started a, um, a coffee truck that was at the, um. All the food truck’s there. And he was like, yeah, we’re just getting going. We don’t quite, like, it’s busy on the weekends, but we don’t have, uh, traffic in weekdays. And I was like, oh, lemme tell you about my side project. I have, at the time it was probably 10,000 people uhhuh on a local newsletter.

[00:09:11] Nathan: And like, we can promote that. Mm-hmm. And so Marissa would be like, oh, this is a great story and we, you know, feature that in. And so it was really fun to have, um, this ability, this platform to be able to bring and, you know, bring visitors and traffic and attention to. All these people are doing great things.

[00:09:25] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:09:26] Marissa: Yeah. And I think like the time that we started from Boise was interesting. It was 2021, so January of 2021 I think is when. Mm-hmm. And we, I sent the first one on March 30th, 2021. Um, so I’m coming up on five years. Yeah. That’s wild. Yeah. Five years. And you

[00:09:42] Nathan: tell everyone how many subscribers it has now.

[00:09:43] Marissa: It’s pretty, we have, uh, 24,072 when I look today.

[00:09:48] And

[00:09:48] Nathan: she knows every single one of them person I’ll.

[00:09:50] Marissa: Thank you. Yeah. Thank you. Um. Something that really drew me to this because, you know, I was kind of working on this music blog, but the newsletter format, like there was not other, other local newsletters at the time.

[00:10:02] Marissa: Mm-hmm. Um, like there is now, you know, there’s a couple other ones in Boise and, and really across the country, like they’re really, it’s gaining a lot of momentum,

[00:10:09] Nathan: but I knew of one local newsletter. I was gonna say nationwide, but it’s actually in Canada.

[00:10:14] Marissa: Yeah.

[00:10:14] Nathan: So like at the time we started, there’s just the one, and now there’s probably hundreds

[00:10:17] Marissa: Oh yeah.

[00:10:18] Nathan: Across the country. But, but it was a very new thing.

[00:10:20] Marissa: Yeah. Yeah. And so that was very exciting to me ’cause I like doing things that mm-hmm. Whether people haven’t done or, you know, just like taking something in, uh, something that’s like new and exciting. Um, but it just immediately clicked for me to like, what a cool format that I can just, I mean, I love writing emails in general and letters, but, um.

[00:10:39] Marissa: Uh, yeah, it was just like such a cool format to just like get to actually talk to, you know, if you get from Boise, it’s like, it’s actually from me. And it just felt like such a natural way to write the newsletter because it is for me and I’m writing to you. Um, so yeah, that was just like I’ve, I still am excited about that.

[00:10:58] Marissa: Like, I still just love that format.

[00:11:00] Nathan: Well, and I think the, the cool thing about newsletters. It’s something that I’ve spent a lot of time in. But is you, you know, you had your blog, but it, it was how do you actually push the content Yeah. Out to people.

[00:11:10] Marissa: Mm-hmm.

[00:11:11] Nathan: And so with the newsletter, you’re able to say, okay, here it will show up in everyone’s inbox, and, and you don’t have to go pull people into you, you can

[00:11:18] Marissa: mm-hmm.

[00:11:18] Nathan: Um, push out to them. So that was really good. One of my favorite things that you brought to the format though. Is the just trust me.

[00:11:25] Marissa: Oh. Mm-hmm.

[00:11:26] Nathan: And

[00:11:27] Marissa: it’s always the most click thing.

[00:11:29] Nathan: And, and so there’s also like, you brought this style and personality to everything. Like, it feels like, um, you know, the, with love from Boise, right?

[00:11:37] Nathan: Mm-hmm. It’s got this, um, style and so, so many people. You know, love following you. Mm-hmm. You love your voice and it’s been really fun.

[00:11:43] Marissa: Yep. I actually borrow, I borrowed or like stole that from another newsletter. Ann Helen Peterson, she writes about, um, culture. She lives in Montana and I’ve been following her newsletter for, for years.

[00:11:55] Marissa: She was kind of like, she was actually one of the first like journalists who got laid off and started a newsletter. Um, and she has a distrust me that’s. It’s kind of like, it’s a lot of like other essays or something, but mine’s just all over the board. You never know what it is.

[00:12:10] Nathan: What’s one of your favorite things that you’ve put behind the Just trust me link.

[00:12:13] Marissa: Oh my gosh. I mean, there’s so many, but usually in October, I love Halloween, so I try to like make the newsletter spooky. Um, and so I usually try to find some like music videos that are not actual Halloween songs, but like the. Music video checks out and those are always kinda weird ’cause they’re music videos.

[00:12:38] Nathan: I think something that stands out to me about it is the connection with the audience. Mm-hmm. And you know, if we think about total view count or the number of subscribers, like on one hand it’s a lot of people, like there’s 24,000 people. In this city. Actually, one thing that surprised me is how many people don’t live in Boise who read the newsletter on a very regular basis.

[00:13:00] Marissa: Mm-hmm.

[00:13:00] Nathan: Like what are some of the examples you hear from

[00:13:02] Marissa: that? I mean, I hear it all the time. It’s, it’s, I don’t know exactly what it is now, ’cause it’s been a while since I asked that on a survey. But I mean, for a while it was like 20% and it was either people who were thinking about moving here and were just kind of like researching, which I’ve talked to many people now who.

[00:13:19] Marissa: Um, say, you know, I, like I was thinking about moving here and followed your blog and that’s, or your newsletter and that’s why I moved. Like, you, you are one of the reasons, um, which is awesome. And then it’s people who used to live here and just wanna, you know, keep in touch or it’s people like, you know, my parents who just wanna know like, what’s, what’s going on in Boise and they don’t live here.

[00:13:41] Marissa: Um, but it’s also, I, I do have a lot of parents of college students, so like they’re just wanting to. To know what’s going on in the city that their kid lives in, you know? Mm-hmm. Um, but yeah, it’s always been really cool. And, and even, I mean, obviously most of the people are in the Treasure Valley, but like McCall, sun Valley, I mean, people who are going to come here on a regular basis, they totally follow it and they save, save things to come and, uh, you know, visit when they, when they come down.

[00:14:08] Nathan: Yeah. That’s really fun. But the idea of the level of connection that you’ve built with all of these different. Um, subscribers, like something that I think about a lot is we, in everything we do online, we hear a lot about view counts, right? There’s a thousand people or 10,000 people or all of that, and it often doesn’t mean that much of a connection.

[00:14:28] Nathan: It’s just passive views. And so something that. I’ve really been impressed with, as I’ve watched from Boise. ’cause I, I have this weird relationship of like, started the thing, helped fund it, got everything going, and then really just left you to do your

[00:14:42] Marissa: own thing. I’m always like, yeah, he started, but he doesn’t do anything.

[00:14:46] Marissa: He like answers my questions every once in a while.

[00:14:49] Nathan: Um, I try to be useful, but I don’t try hard. But is this idea of building an audience versus a crowd. And so I think a lot of times on online we have these people we follow, but you don’t really care about them or someone, you know, a content creator has a ton of people, a ton of views, but there’s not really a relationship there.

[00:15:10] Nathan: And so what stood out to me, like I think of that as a crowd. It’s just a bunch of people. They don’t really, they may be passively interacting, whereas what you have is like a real audience where. People engage, they show up to events, they mm-hmm. Uh, they reply to all of the emails. Mm-hmm. All of this, the stuff.

[00:15:27] Nathan: What have been some of your examples of like, it seemed like an audience and not just a crowd of

[00:15:31] Marissa: people? Yeah, I mean, I think the biggest thing, and you know, something that I think about is like, what does it mean to have influence and like, what does that look like? And for me, I mean, people. Not only are they going and doing the things, but then they’ll report back about like how it was and, and what, you know, what it was like.

[00:15:48] Marissa: And hey, next time you talk about this, like you should, I mean, a great example of this is over, um, the holidays. I, you know, I talked about a bunch of different holiday markets. It was in the Plan Ahead newsletter and I talked about the Bruno Cowboy Christmas, which is amazing event. I don’t know if anybody’s been there, but it’s so good.

[00:16:04] Marissa: Um, this market takes. Over all of Bruno, which is, you know, south of Boise. And this guy wrote back and he said, um, you know, we went, it was amazing. If anything, I would’ve gotten there earlier. You should tell everyone to get there earlier. Also, just so you know, if you are like me and you’re bringing your family along, they have puppies for sale and it will be very hard to tell your children that they cannot have a puppy from this Christmas market.

[00:16:30] Marissa: I mean, stuff like that, it’s just like. That’s so cool that, you know, and then of course I write back. And so it’s, it’s this conversation. It’s not just like something that somebody saw, you know, and maybe sent to their friend on Instagram. Like, yes, that’s also great, but they went and they did it with their family and he knows that I am a real person and like reported back with real information.

[00:16:51] Marissa: Um, so yeah, I just, you know, I think that’s. I have so many people that I feel, you know, when we meet in person, they’re like, wait, yeah, I feel like I know you. I’m like, me too, because we’ve been emailing. Um, so yeah, I, I I think it’s so cool to have that connection with

[00:17:07] Nathan: mm-hmm.

[00:17:07] Marissa: With my readers. Like I, it’s really, it’s so special

[00:17:11] Nathan: you hear this term thrown around of influencer and I think a lot of people who are called an influencer don’t actually have influence.

[00:17:19] Nathan: And so what does it mean to have influence? Like if you say, Hey, I would like a hundred people. On a random weeknight to all get dinner together. They go, yeah, okay. They do it.

[00:17:29] Marissa: Yeah.

[00:17:29] Nathan: Right.

[00:17:30] Marissa: Yeah.

[00:17:30] Nathan: It’s like, talk about the, the dinner parties

[00:17:32] Marissa: that you

[00:17:32] Nathan: now throw.

[00:17:32] Marissa: Yeah. Um, yeah, so we recently started from Boise Dinner Club.

[00:17:36] Marissa: We did the first one in January and had so, um. I mean, backing up a little bit is that I, you know, anytime I’m like, I think of everything kind of as an experiment. So like every time I’m gonna try something, I, you know, put it out there and say, Hey, here’s an idea. What do you think about this? And a great feature that Kit has is Pulse.

[00:17:56] Marissa: So it’s really easy for me to say, Hey, here’s my idea. Like, you know, yes or no? Um, what do you think? And, but you can actually put up to five options. That’s really a great feature. Um, but, so anyways, I, um. Said, Hey, I’m thinking about this dinner club. You know, this is how it would be. You fill out a, a questionnaire kind of about, you know, who you’re hoping to meet.

[00:18:18] Marissa: Like, you know, what kind of person are you at dinner? Are you more of an introvert? Are you an extrovert? Um, ’cause you can’t have all the introverts together, you know? Um, that’s

[00:18:27] Guest 4: never gonna work.

[00:18:27] Marissa: Yeah. There’s gonna be awkward. Um, but they, uh, you know, and then you would. You’ll go and get dinner, but it’s at a, you won’t find out the place until the day of, um, you know, would you go?

[00:18:40] Marissa: And I told, uh, Leslie, who, who works with me, um, she’s the only other person up from Boise. Um, uh, I said, if we’re gonna a hundred people, let’s try it. And we had 656 people say yes. And I was like, oh boy, I guess we’re definitely doing this. And then the first one. Had, um, 96 people. The second one had 105 and this one just sold out at 120.

[00:19:06] Marissa: Um, and I think we’re gonna start doing ’em twice a month. And it’s so cool. Like people really, really are making these genuine connections at the, at the February dinner, so our third dinner’s on Friday. Um, but at the February dinner I had a, a group. That reconnected at the after party. They had all met at the first dinner in January and they’re like, yeah, we’ve already been hanging out.

[00:19:27] Marissa: We just had coffee on Tuesday. And then we were all kind of bummed that we like weren’t seated together again. Um, but they knew it was, it’s the point of the event. But yeah.

[00:19:35] Nathan: So just if anyone didn’t follow the format of what it is, is everyone’s like groups of six or eight people.

[00:19:42] Marissa: Yeah. Six. And we are gonna experiment with eight.

[00:19:44] Marissa: But um, yeah, six people to table

[00:19:46] Nathan: and restaurants. All around. Mm-hmm. Did you do 10, 10 to 15? How many different

[00:19:50] Marissa: restaurants? We have, uh, we have 12 different rest. 19 tables at 12 different restaurants for Friday.

[00:19:57] Nathan: Yeah. Wow. Yeah. And so you’re just going out with a bunch of strangers. Mm-hmm. The thing that you have in common is that you love voice.

[00:20:04] Nathan: And you love this weird little newsletter about Boise and you’re up for trying something new,

[00:20:10] Marissa: Uhhuh.

[00:20:10] Nathan: And then afterwards there’s an after party where everyone can gather up and

[00:20:14] Marissa: mm-hmm.

[00:20:15] Nathan: Connect and, and all of that.

[00:20:16] Marissa: Yeah. Okay. Another story though about people just having this wild amount of trust in me is, um, there, so in October I wanted to try.

[00:20:27] Marissa: So some feedback that I’ve always gotten is like, Hey, we would love some deals with local businesses, you know, like discounts. And so I, um, decided I was gonna make a Boise discount card and it’s, it’s a punch card with 12 different local businesses on it, and you get 10% off at each local business. And I was, had been thinking about it and I was like, I’m just gonna do it.

[00:20:47] Marissa: And so I put it up for sale and emailed the 12 businesses at the same time. And so I was, I was just said, you know, Hey, here’s this. This is what it is and I’ll let you know what, I’ll let you know who’s involved. And like 36 people bought one without know, like immediately without knowing even where they were gonna get a discount.

[00:21:11] Marissa: And they just, um, yeah. And they were just happy to. To support me and just, I don’t know, I guess it was a surprise whenever they, they did figure out what they bought.

[00:21:23] Nathan: Hey, I hope you’re enjoying this episode and I’m gonna just quickly jump in to tell you about Craft and Commerce. It’s the annual conference that we host at Kit for creators who are serious about building a real business.

[00:21:33] Nathan: We host it every June here in Boise, Idaho. As so much of our work shifts to ai, the thing you can’t replicate is being in the room with other creators. Get what you’re building. We have incredible speakers and workshops, but honestly, the real value is the people you’ll meet and the relationships you’ll build.

[00:21:51] Nathan: We sold out last year, and this year is gonna sell out really soon. So you wanna grab your ticket, go to kit.com/conference. There’s a couple different directions we could go from here. One is around what’s go to monetization for a second.

[00:22:04] Guest 4: Okay. Yeah.

[00:22:04] Nathan: Like how this thing makes money. Mm-hmm. Because you’ve talked about a few of these experiments.

[00:22:10] Nathan: Mm-hmm. And just. Trying things, throwing out there. What are a few of the different things that you’ve thrown out there? There are the discount cards. What else have we tried?

[00:22:18] Marissa: Yeah, discount cards, dinner club. Um, I’ve sold merch t-shirts. If you have a from voice T-shirt, that’s like a limited edition. Um, stickers.

[00:22:27] Marissa: And I also had a meetup group called BFFs, um, that started in 2023 and it was either $9 a month or $99 a year. And I planned different monthly meetups, like we played Boise trivia. One time I wrote all the questions. It’s really fun and um. We like just went, we went to the spirit of Boise Balloon Festival together.

[00:22:48] Marissa: We went to a concert, we went to, um, barbarian and just like got beers and hung out on the patio. It was just this very informal, um, meetup group and it’s, it, it just was hard for me to plan the events. Like it was a, um, it was a hard, at the time I was pretty much doing everything. It was just me. Um, and so it was just, it was just hard for me to spread my time.

[00:23:11] Marissa: Um, but that kind of has become dinner club. And so it’s, it, it was an experiment that then, you know, became, the next iteration is, is dinner club.

[00:23:21] Nathan: Well, and the thing that stood out to me is from, as we would talk about these ideas and you’d run some things by me and, and all of that, and. I would’ve expected that, hey, let’s host an event of trivia and people can be part of this membership and it’d be a bigger group thing that that would work better than go have dinner with five other strangers.

[00:23:41] Nathan: Mm-hmm. But it turns out the first one worked. Mm-hmm. And people loved it, but it ran into some of the issues you talked about. But the dinner club is like far and away the hit. Yeah. Like month after month. Mm-hmm. Selling out and, and so this idea of experimentation, like that’s the thing that we’ve always done, is just like, mm-hmm.

[00:23:58] Nathan: Thankfully a newsletter doesn’t really cost much of anything to start. And, you know, we’re like handing out different things or different ideas, uhhuh from social or any of that to, um, to get people to sign up for it. Mm-hmm. But then like the barrier entry is really low and so we can just experiment with things and try things and

[00:24:15] Marissa: yeah.

[00:24:16] Nathan: See what sticks.

[00:24:17] Marissa: Yeah. There’s this chapter in, uh, the Creative Act by Rick Rubin, where he talks about how all art is a work in progress and regardless of the outcome. You’ll gain valuable information along the way. And so, and I, I think what he says is we’re not, we’re not playing to win. We’re playing to play.

[00:24:35] Marissa: And ultimately playing is fun. And I’ve always, I read that book like very early on in this and um, I really took that to heart. And that’s how I feel about, honestly, all of it. Like even from the get go, it’s just, it’s all an experiment and I really am just playing to play. Yeah. Like it’s. There’s no winning in it, there’s no like, real level of success other than, you know, am I providing real value and doing cool, fun new stuff, and like, am I enjoying my, my day to day doing this?

[00:25:06] Marissa: Mm-hmm. Um,

[00:25:07] Nathan: yeah. It comes through and everything you’re doing right? Mm-hmm. I think if you were, if you had like this tight grip on it and you’re like, oh, it has to be this certain way or it has to work, or

[00:25:15] Marissa: mm-hmm.

[00:25:16] Nathan: All of that, that would come through in the content that would come through in the community.

[00:25:18] Marissa: Mm-hmm.

[00:25:19] Nathan: And so this. This fun, you know, outpouring of love to the community and the writing and everything else.

[00:25:25] Marissa: Mm-hmm.

[00:25:26] Nathan: Is why people subscribe to it. And I think something that’s come that we’ve both learned in this journey is this idea of you can just do things right. There’s no. Credibility or you know, no one looked at both of us and was like, well, who are you to, you know, we don’t work for the city.

[00:25:44] Nathan: We don’t, yeah. We just love the city that we live in. Mm-hmm. And wanted to start something. And I think that’s something that, like an ethos that I see all throughout Boise.

[00:25:52] Marissa: Mm-hmm.

[00:25:53] Nathan: And it’s represented in the businesses that you’re like, Hey, will you be a part of this thing? And they’re like, yeah. Mm-hmm.

[00:25:58] Nathan: Yeah. Absolutely. And everybody just kind of supports that and rolls with it.

[00:26:01] Marissa: Yeah. I feel like that’s, that’s such a huge part of what I. And have noticed about Boise, you know, ever since I really started writing about it, like 10, 11 years ago, it’s like people just have an idea and they’re like, Hey, I’m gonna do this.

[00:26:16] Marissa: And they tell people and they’re like, cool, I’ll support you. And I’ll come, you know, I’ll, I mean, Treeport ISS a great example, like mm-hmm. Eric was just like, Hey, I’m gonna start a music festival. And people were like, okay, how can I help? You know, and like, cool. You can use this parking lot or, you know, um, and look at what it’s grown into.

[00:26:35] Marissa: It’s this like amazing community event. Huge economic driver, like a huge opportunity for artists at all stages in their career. Mm-hmm. I mean, and I’ve seen that so many times in Boise, like it’s. Of course you can just do things anywhere, but there’s something in Boise like this community, and it’s regardless of how long people have lived here in this community, people just rally around like cool new ideas and it’s so special.

[00:27:03] Marissa: And I think it’s, it’s what draws people to Boise. Whether they know that’s what’s happening or not. Like I really do think that that’s a huge part of it. It’s, it’s just like very special.

[00:27:14] Nathan: Yeah. You’ve gotten to profile a lot of businesses. Over the years. That’s something that I always like in the original idea for it, that I wanted to see.

[00:27:22] Nathan: Mm-hmm. A lot of is like, I wanna know the stories behind all of these businesses. Mm-hmm. And so you went and did that, and now I’m like, great. Now I can just on a Tuesday morning, I can just sit and read this.

[00:27:30] Marissa: You’re like, Hey, what, what, what is this? Will you go find out?

[00:27:33] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:27:33] Marissa: Yes. Here is a 2000 word article.

[00:27:36] Nathan: Thank you. Um, but. If you think about that idea of you can just do things. Mm-hmm. Tree fort’s a great example. Who are a few other people or, or businesses or projects in Boise that really embody that.

[00:27:46] Marissa: Yeah. Um, Idaho Film Society is a great one. Um, like you have this old bus station that was a popup tree fort venue, and then Aiden’s like, I’m gonna make this into a really awesome theater and show, you know, these.

[00:28:00] Marissa: Films that maybe, you know, maybe you don’t know, like every night of the week it’s like, so, and be this kind of like incubator for the film industry here. Um, another one is, uh, Shea with Cat’s Eye Creative Reuse, um, on, uh, Broadway. Mm-hmm. And it’s like a, it’s, it’s all, it’s all craft. And art supplies.

[00:28:25] Marissa: That’s like secondhand. It’s like a craft thrift store. It’s awesome. I don’t know if you haven’t been in there. It’s so cool. And, uh, you know, she like hosts these, that’s such a crazy idea. Like, I’m gonna gather a bunch of used craft stuff and it’s this awesome, cool store. Um, oh my gosh, there’s like so many.

[00:28:45] Marissa: Every story I feel like is that it’s, it’s um, catalyst Arts collaborative. That was a recent story is another one. Um. Yeah, I, and like so many of the nonprofits too, that’s just like, you see a need in your community and then you just make the thing to help it. It’s, it’s amazing.

[00:29:03] Nathan: Yeah. I love that. Okay.

[00:29:05] Nathan: Another thing is that people often look at from Boise or a local newsletter and they really latch onto this, the news aspect of newsletter, and so they’re like, oh, so you’re telling us what’s happening, what city Council is doing now? Yeah. What, what’s being built? Or any of those things.

[00:29:21] Marissa: Uh,

[00:29:22] Nathan: and they’re like, oh, you’re the new wave of media.

[00:29:25] Marissa: Mm.

[00:29:25] Nathan: Right. So maybe first let’s talk about the, the news side. Yeah. Because we’re deliberately not doing that.

[00:29:29] Marissa: Yeah. I don’t talk about the news. Um, mostly because everybody else has that covered and it doesn’t really interest me in the way that I want to, like, regurgitate it every week. I, I really saw a need for.

[00:29:42] Marissa: Okay, so also this was in 2021, right? So it was like all bad news the, the year before, before that’s

[00:29:49] Nathan: gonna bring some

[00:29:49] Marissa: joy

[00:29:50] Nathan: to the world. I was, and I’d just be like, yep, things aren’t great.

[00:29:52] Marissa: Exactly. Yes. I was like, people need to know that there is still fun to be had. And um, that was really huge part it. And um, but you know, it’s.

[00:30:03] Marissa: I really do feel like people, other outlets have that covered and I don’t also need to put that out there. Like you can find it. And I really saw a, a need for a really clean live music calendar that has the genres. So you know what you can go find or explore. Um, you know, this, we have more comedy shows it feels like than ever before.

[00:30:28] Marissa: A place to find all of that. And then, you know, where’s like the. The things to do is really what I wanted to, you know, kind of compile and curate every week. Um, so yeah, part of it’s just because, like that’s not what gets me as excited as talking about fun things to do. Um. Yeah. And also I just feel like other people have it covered, and I’m not like a trained journalist, so it scares me a little bit to talk about the real news.

[00:30:55] Nathan: We’ll leave that to Boise Dev Yeah. And all the other great, uh, publications that do that.

[00:31:00] Marissa: Yeah.

[00:31:00] Nathan: What about like the shift happening in media?

[00:31:02] Marissa: Mm-hmm.

[00:31:02] Nathan: I, I feel like that’s something that people ask you often. Mm-hmm. And you’re like, oh, you’re part of the new wave of media.

[00:31:08] Marissa: It’s kind of funny for me to feel like I’m part of that, but I suppose I am.

[00:31:13] Marissa: Um, and. I mean, I honestly think it’s kind of sad that we don’t like, like I like reading the newspaper. I like having like a physical thing. But I think that now, nowadays, a reason why newsletters are popular is because it is coming from a person. Mm-hmm. Um, and. I don’t even wanna get into like the media distrust.

[00:31:35] Marissa: I think it’s just more of a connection. Like you are, like someone is writing to you. Even with Boise Dov, who does cover the news. Like it comes from one of their journalists who are fabulous, by the way, who’s best, best journalists. Um, and like, you know, if you, if you ask them a question, they’ll answer it in a news story.

[00:31:52] Marissa: Like it’s, it really is coming from a real person who lives here. Um, and. It’s, it’s almost like what columnists were in the newspaper, right? Like you, like I used to have these like columns that I loved reading. Um, and I think that’s why, you know, Substack is, has become like such a place for journalists who leave traditional media to go because we really just want connection with, with humans.

[00:32:18] Marissa: And that, I mean, that’s like never changed, right? I mean, storytelling amongst humans has like always been part of. Who we are and I don’t think that will ever go away. It’s just shifting the delivery format.

[00:32:31] Nathan: Yeah. I think that’s a cool thing of having all these individual writers can now build their own email list.

[00:32:36] Nathan: Mm-hmm. Have their own platform and, you know, have their regular readers on, on a consistent basis. Mm-hmm. And get pretty incredible reach. Yeah. Right. People who have, whether it’s 10,000 or 24,000 subscribers, or in some cases these newsletters are hundreds of thousands or you know, there, there’s newsletters on a kit that are.

[00:32:53] Nathan: You know, a few million subscribers just written by one person who’s like, Hey, here’s what I’m thinking about this week. Mm-hmm. Here’s what I found interesting. And it goes out to millions of people.

[00:33:01] Marissa: Mm-hmm. Yeah. On kit, on Substack too. I mean, there’s some journalists on Substack that are like, they have a huge reach and people pay them.

[00:33:09] Marissa: Mm-hmm. I mean, it’s, it’s really a cool, it’s really a cool shift. Um. I am excited to be part of it even though this, the people we’re talking about are like legit journalists. Um, I’m here to tell you about fun things to do and voice history. Um, but I do think it’s, it’s, it’s an exciting shift to, to watch And, um, there’s some just amazing, amazing writers out there and it’s like, I love reading, I love reading people’s essays and newsletters and um, yeah, it’s a really cool way to consume media.

[00:33:41] Marissa: Like from somebody.

[00:33:43] Nathan: Yep. The point of view is, is good. Something that’s been interesting for me as maybe if we go back to the, like the arc of from Boise, there’s a lot of times where we felt like it was going really well. There are times where I’m like, oh, I’m totally off doing other things. Like, I’m sorry, Marissa, you were a hundred percent on your own

[00:34:01] Guest 6: Uhhuh.

[00:34:01] Nathan: Um, if you need some money to help run some more Facebook ads for growth, like I can help you with that, but I have no time to help.

[00:34:06] Guest 6: Mm-hmm.

[00:34:07] Nathan: Um, but it’s been really cool from my seat to watch you. Like step up and learn this whole creator world. Mm-hmm. And, um, like how to turn a random set of attention from, you know, a thousand or 10,000 people into a full business.

[00:34:24] Guest 4: Mm-hmm.

[00:34:24] Nathan: You crossed six figures in revenue last year. Mm-hmm. Which is a huge milestone. So it turns out you can make a hundred thousand dollars a year more off of, off of a local newsletter.

[00:34:33] Marissa: Mm-hmm.

[00:34:34] Nathan: Um, but what were some of the, the points along the way where you were figuring out like, oh, this is how. This part of it works.

[00:34:41] Nathan: Mm-hmm. Or a few of the unlocks.

[00:34:42] Marissa: Well, so in 2022, so from 20, all of 2021, basically you were really handling the, the subscriber growth. Mm-hmm. And, um, I was doing, I was mostly just focused on the content. Yeah. Like, I wasn’t even really focusing or even thinking about, um, monetizing it because I had another job.

[00:35:02] Marissa: I worked at Tree Fort and I was just doing fun freelance things when it would pop up. Um, which now I. I think it was kind of like a safety net that held me back from it progressing sooner, um, because it was my part-time job until 2024. So 2025 was the first year I was really all in on it, and it was the first year across six figures.

[00:35:27] Marissa: Mm-hmm. I mean, that really speaks for itself. I also had a new baby, so, um, women are amazing. Um, but, but, um, but really, um. I in 2022 when you, you kind of like handed the keys over, if you will, like, Hey, I’m, you got this now. And I was like, do I, we remember we were sitting on the patio at, uh, wild Root and I was like, I don’t know.

[00:35:51] Marissa: Like, I don’t even know what you’ve been doing. I feel like I’ve just been writing over here. Um, and so yeah, I had to figure out, you know, how do I keep the subscribers growing also, like, how are we monetizing this because I think I do want this to be the only thing I’m doing eventually. Mm-hmm. Um. And it has had a lot of ups and downs.

[00:36:09] Marissa: I mean, just the split of attention for me, I think like I would have all these story ideas and I would, you know, be weeks ahead and then I’m like, oh my gosh, I don’t have any sponsors. Like, we have no money coming in. And then I would get all these sponsors and then I’m like, oh my God, what am I writing about today?

[00:36:25] Marissa: You know? And it was just this, this up and down and, um. And what really changed, changed a lot for me was relying on some freelance writers, which is really fun for me to work with other writers too. Um, I love doing that and so I’m not having to write every single story. Um, outsourcing the sales and the social media.

[00:36:47] Marissa: Mm-hmm. Like just getting some things off my plate so that I can focus on, um. What I want to learn and what I’m best at, and I’m best at writing and I want to learn other pieces of the business. So, um, it’s been really fun to, you know, try to figure out how to make money in a way that is still bringing value to our readers and our community.

[00:37:07] Marissa: Um, ’cause that’s important to me. And, um, just get to work with like, a lot of different businesses and organizations and our partnerships and to figure out ways to reach new people, you know, and, um. It’s kind of fun because I was just recently on a podcast and he asked me, you know, what’s the population?

[00:37:26] Marissa: And so like, what’s the ceiling? And with the fact that people are just, it seems like infinitely interested in Boise, even if they’re not, if they don’t live here and they’re not gonna move here or moving here, um, I don’t feel like I have a ceiling on how many people can potentially read from Boise, which is really cool and kind of scary when you think about talking to that many people.

[00:37:46] Marissa: But, um. Yeah. I mean, figuring out the business, the writing part has always been easy for me. Mm-hmm. The business side has been a big learning curve.

[00:37:56] Nathan: It’s been fun for me to see you go from writer to then learning all these other skills like learning, social learning, uh, you know, selling sponsorships, like how to write, uh, how to grow a newsletter, all of these other things, and then getting team members in place for it.

[00:38:12] Nathan: Mm-hmm. See you now like leading the whole business. Mm-hmm. And building the brand and everything else.

[00:38:18] Marissa: It’s been, mm-hmm.

[00:38:19] Nathan: It’s been a great journey. Yeah.

[00:38:21] Marissa: Um, it, I feel like there was really a turning point in, um, 2023 when I felt like, ’cause the brand that we originally started with is something that you just, like, you made it like very quickly.

[00:38:34] Marissa: It seemed like you just were like, yes, here’s the logo. And that was pretty much all we had.

[00:38:38] Nathan: 20 minutes in Photoshop.

[00:38:39] Marissa: Yeah, exactly. And, um. Up until December of this last year, we only had a landing page. Like I didn’t have a legit website. It was just like a landing page. Here’s just where you can subscribe.

[00:38:51] Marissa: And, um, I decided I like that logo. Just didn’t really feel like true to what I felt like from Boise was and could be. And, um, so went through a, I mean, I, I don’t know if it was a rebrand. I felt like it was the first brand, um, that Isabelle did. And, um. That has just, I felt like it really helped us level up, like it felt so much more official.

[00:39:15] Marissa: Um, and then this, this last year we worked with Ampersand Studios to do a website and I really, it, it was like the next level up, like just seeing that brand come to life and just, you know, um, be across all our things. Like, it’s, it’s been really fun to just, it feels, uh, like it’s growing up.

[00:39:38] Nathan: Yes, it is. Um, well, I want to.

[00:39:40] Nathan: Open it up to questions. Is there anything that you all wanna know about from Boise or the newsletter or building businesses or any of that? Yeah.

[00:39:49] Guest 5: Do you, do people pitch you that they want you to cover them? Or how do you determine what you’re gonna cover?

[00:39:54] Marissa: Um, yeah. It’s a mix of things. Yes. People send me story ideas and I love that.

[00:39:59] Marissa: Um, which is which? It’s really fun to hear from readers. Um, people pitch me stories like they’re from the organization or even just, Hey, did you know about this thing? Um, and I love those. Some of it’s also things that I wanna know more about. Um, and the best ones are where I am biking around or walking around and saying.

[00:40:21] Marissa: Hmm, what’s that? Or for example, there, there’s the red bridge. Um, you know, if you’re coming down off of garden on, on the Greenbelt, there’s a bridge that goes over the river, kinda in between Boise and Garden City. And in 2023, I was writing that and I looked up and it said 1903. And I’m like, wait, what?

[00:40:41] Marissa: This bridge is like what? And um. Yeah. Or it says 1923 ’cause it was a hundred years old. And so yeah, then I started doing this digging and it’s like, the bridge doesn’t even have an official name. It’s a hundred years old. And so, yeah, did a deep dive on that. So part of it’s just like being curious about what’s going on.

[00:41:01] Marissa: Um, some of it’s also things I think people need to know, like, you know, event guides. And then the histories are just kind of fun things that I wonder about.

[00:41:11] Nathan: Some of my favorites are the, uh, or one of my favorites is the history of the Boise Greenbelt. Mm. Like that was one that, you know, you learn so much about it and how it developed over the years and who championed it and made it all come to life.

[00:41:22] Nathan: Mm-hmm. You could see the, the old videos of the helicopter shot of like, okay, this is before the green belt. And, and the, the idea of what it could be.

[00:41:31] Marissa: Mm-hmm. And that one came from a reader actually. Um. Somebody wrote me and said, Hey, we recently moved here, but I would love for you to do a history of the Boise River because, and, and the green belt.

[00:41:42] Marissa: Because when we first moved here, I learned that it used to be, you know, filled with trash. Like it used to be a trash river. And um, and yeah, so that one was really fun. I mean, people just throw things out and I love that. So if you ever have a story idea, let me know. I love that. Yeah,

[00:41:59] Guest 3: so I just want clarity.

[00:42:01] Guest 3: Is the money that you make from ads, is it from sponsorship? How do you actually, what is your money actually made from?

[00:42:07] Marissa: Um, it’s mostly sponsorship, sponsorships, which are ads in the newsletter or sponsored content on social media. That’s where the majority comes from. Um, and then I also make a little bit off of dinner club and BFFs was another example.

[00:42:22] Marissa: And then, you know, some of the products that I’ve sold, like the discount cards in merch. Um, and then also we have readers that donate to us every month, which is really cool. Um, it’s like 300 bucks a month to, in total, um, a handful of subscribers just. Either, we’ll, we’ll give a, um, kind of like a tip or they are donating on a monthly basis, which is like so amazing.

[00:42:46] Guest 8: But you had mentioned how there’s like a lot of newsletters that have come and gone. I’ve lived in Boise for a long time and, and like the event list and what’s going on. So, um, like why do you think yours has so much longevity? Is it the person that, you know, you talked about that feels real and real connected and so it’s, there isn’t that desperation.

[00:43:05] Guest 8: Please sign up for my newsletter. Is that what you think is keeping people hooked or,

[00:43:10] Marissa: it’s a really good question. Part of it’s definitely because I’m very stubborn and I, I love what I’m doing and so I don’t really wanna do anything else, and I’m going to figure out how to make it work no matter what.

[00:43:21] Marissa: Um, and I think the other, the other piece of it is I just don’t. See a cap on the amount of things I have to write about. Like there’s, there’s so many things to write about here, um, and it just is like continuously growing. Um, so yeah, I think it’s, it’s those two things that I am just ever curious about.

[00:43:46] Marissa: Uh, what’s going on here, what has already happened here, and, um, sharing it with people and. I just don’t wanna give up on it ever either. Yeah.

[00:43:56] Nathan: I really appreciate watching the stubbornness that you’ve had. Like there’s, it’s such a, it’s probably the most important entrepreneurial trait. It is just like a refusal to give up

[00:44:05] Guest 6: Uhhuh.

[00:44:05] Nathan: Um, ’cause we had a conversation actually, like, probably because a hundred feet that way on the patio where it was like, Ooh, I don’t know that this is gonna work. Yeah. And like, how to push through that period of time when

[00:44:16] Guest 6: mm-hmm.

[00:44:16] Nathan: Uh, when it was rough. Two things that come to mind for me. One is. I was thinking about how do we get to a certain volume where it has escape velocity?

[00:44:26] Marissa: Mm.

[00:44:27] Nathan: And so that was the first, probably two years, is where I was trying to think, okay, how can we get enough subscribers that you can charge enough for a sponsorship? Mm-hmm. That it makes sense for everybody. Mm-hmm. And so. You know, if you’re going off selling $200 or $500 sponsorships because there’s only 500 or 2000 readers, this newsletter, like it’s never going to get traction.

[00:44:50] Nathan: And so is it investing enough time and effort to where we could get to probably eight to 10,000 subscribers? Was that that point where it was like, okay, there’s at least enough that a sponsorship makes sense. Um, so we did all kinds of things. Mm-hmm. Um, and we talked about that a little, a little bit more.

[00:45:05] Nathan: Um, so the escape velocity matters. And then the other one is, I think of a Seth Godin quote of profit is just permission to do it again tomorrow. And a lot of people, whether they’re running a nonprofit or they’re saying, oh, it’s just a passion project, and so it doesn’t need to make money, and it’s really hard to do things again tomorrow and the next day.

[00:45:26] Nathan: Mm-hmm. If it doesn’t make money and you’re worried about those things. Mm-hmm. And so that’s why. You’ve always had this green of like, okay, but this is still how I make money.

[00:45:33] Guest 4: Mm-hmm.

[00:45:34] Nathan: So we’re gonna make money.

[00:45:35] Guest 4: Mm-hmm.

[00:45:35] Nathan: And so I think of how much you love the project in Boise and all of this. And because you love it though, at least from my perception, because you love it, it’s so important to make money from it.

[00:45:46] Nathan: Mm-hmm. So that you have the permission to do it again. Mm-hmm. And again, um, and that’s how it has staying power. Mm-hmm. And so I think a lot of the projects that have come before this ne either never got escape velocity or never figured out monetization, and then it. Is never gonna, uh, continue.

[00:46:01] Marissa: Mm-hmm.

[00:46:02] Marissa: And I think when you’re doing something for the sake of creativity, um, which is probably, you know, how a lot of those projects started, it’s really hard to figure out the monetization. Like, you have to wear this business hat that’s like not as creative necessarily. Um, and yeah, it, that has definitely been the, the biggest learning curve for me for sure, is the, is monetizing it in a way that feels, um.

[00:46:29] Marissa: You know, it feels good and makes sense for everybody involved, like you said.

[00:46:33] Nathan: Yep. I like it. All right. Who else has a question? Yeah, Dennis.

[00:46:37] Guest 2: I was just going to say that one of the things that I learned from you, Nathan, is back when you wrote your book Authority and you had about 300 subscribers at that time and how much money you made off of writing your books, that people who are just getting started with writing newsletters don’t realize that you don’t need to have.

[00:46:58] Guest 2: A huge following all the time to make some decent income outta it.

[00:47:02] Marissa: Mm-hmm.

[00:47:03] Nathan: Yeah. I think that’s something that we’ve figured out, and part of the reason that why we both love newsletters is if you get, you know, a small group of people who really care about this subject, then you know you can make meaningful income.

[00:47:15] Nathan: And it’s not just like, oh, we had to get hundreds of thousands of views on YouTube to be able to pay rent. It’s like, no, you can actually have thousands or tens of thousands of people paying attention and turn it into a full-time living.

[00:47:26] Marissa: Mm-hmm.

[00:47:27] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:47:28] Guest 6: On Thursday is when you put together all the concerts and mm-hmm.

[00:47:32] Guest 6: Places to do and all those, how do you get all those consistently to, um, yeah. So

[00:47:39] Nathan: the question is about the Thursday email and all of the information. How do you compile that and curate everything? Mm-hmm. And go from there. Mm-hmm.

[00:47:46] Marissa: Well, honestly, for way too long, it just lived in my head and I just. Knew all the places to check, which was not the most efficient way to go about it.

[00:47:56] Marissa: Um, and now I, I have a huge list in, in notion, which is what I use to kind of organize everything. And, um, I go through and, and look at what’s going on and decide, you know, what I wanna include or not. I also still spend quite a bit of time, um, scrolling like Facebook and Eventbrite events because. That’s where like the kind of quirky, weird ones are.

[00:48:19] Marissa: And those are great. So I love those. And I mean, for example, um, a couple weeks ago, one of the most clicked links like ever was an estate sale that I found on Facebook that I was like, that looks amazing. And they’re not releasing the address until Saturday. So like, you have to save this newsletter to click the link to get back to this, to find the address.

[00:48:41] Marissa: And it was like. So many clicks. Um, so, uh, yeah, I, I really just like search around. I, um, you know, spend a little bit of time like kind of scrolling Facebook, um, Instagram and will send myself events that I see that are, that are kind of quirky. Um, but yeah, the music I, I go through and I look at every single, um, venue and see what they’re doing.

[00:49:07] Marissa: Um, yeah.

[00:49:09] Nathan: I think there’s a, a level of curation that can only come from someone who lives in Boise, loves Boise, wants to go to these things. And it’s just so different from, oh, I used AI to scrape.

[00:49:22] Marissa: Mm-hmm.

[00:49:22] Nathan: You know, all of these different sources. And then I used another AI to curate it down to a list and there you go.

[00:49:27] Nathan: Help you find something in there you like.

[00:49:28] Marissa: Yeah. Yeah. I, I also, um, you know, I find this interesting. I ask myself. Do I wanna go to this? Would my mom wanna go to this? And would my dad wanna go to this? Because they’re diff, they’re divorced, so they like different things. And so, but it really helps me, like my audience is so broad, um, with age groups.

[00:49:49] Marissa: Like it’s truly, I mean, I have a reader with 93 and so, um, and she writes me back all the time and tells me, you know, I will not be attending this event. I’m like, thank you for letting me know. But it really helps me to have these people in my, in my mind, you know, because I’m, I’m curating for a very broad audience.

[00:50:09] Marissa: Um, and I like to have, uh, something for everybody in there. I try to,

[00:50:13] Nathan: I love that. Okay, let’s take one more que I think we have a hand up right here.

[00:50:16] Guest 4: I just have a brass tax question. I’m curious, do you own it now? Is this an LLC? Like what is the business structure behind it now?

[00:50:24] Marissa: Yes, it’s an LLC. It’s very official and, um, yeah, we’re, we’re 50 50 partners in it now.

[00:50:31] Marissa: Mm-hmm.

[00:50:31] Nathan: Yeah, it’s been a, a fun venture and uh, when I’m not like totally busy running my other company, then I get to come in and help out. Mm-hmm. And otherwise just mostly provide moral support and occasional advice

[00:50:47] Marissa: and the occasional like, Hey, did you know this business just, uh, popped up? And those are always fun too.

[00:50:53] Nathan: Yes, exactly. Well, it’s been fun to have all of you here and. Here’s chat about our little, little project. I appreciate that you love the city as much as we do, and, uh, that you know, Russ, thank you for hosting, hosting this and, uh, listening to us talk about. You know the newsletter, if anyone has not subscribed yet, you should go subscribe from boise.com.

[00:51:14] Nathan: Mm-hmm. There’s no excuses. It’s free and uh, come check out one of the events. Maybe sign up for a dinner club.

[00:51:20] Marissa: Yeah.

[00:51:21] Nathan: Not March ’cause it’s sold out, but mm-hmm.

[00:51:23] Marissa: We might add another one. Come to the April one. Yeah.

[00:51:26] Nathan: Sounds

[00:51:26] Marissa: good.

[00:51:26] Nathan: All right. Thank you everybody. If you enjoyed this episode, go to YouTube and search the Nathan Berry Show.

[00:51:33] Nathan: Then hit subscribe and make sure to like the video and drop a comment. I’d love to hear what some of your favorite parts of the video were, and also just who else do you think we should have on the show? Thank you so much for listening.

[00:00:00] Tintin: This is the thing that’s actually gonna get you the outcome that you want if you wanna V, she started to implement a system. The first video that she did has got over 200,000 views overnight.

[00:00:09] Nathan: Tintin Smith is a YouTube strategist and coach who helps educational YouTubers turn their channels into six figure businesses.

[00:00:15] Nathan: What exactly should I be spending my time on?

[00:00:17] Tintin: Obviously, number one is, is filming, positioning and strategy ideation, scripting, and planning. And finally, number five is just

[00:00:25] Nathan: what’s number one on your list of what you should not do?

[00:00:27] Tintin: Number one. Is

[00:00:29] Nathan: he spent two years as Ali Abdaal’s, head of YouTube, running the entire operation.

[00:00:33] Nathan: While the channel grew from three to 6 million subscribers and generated millions of dollars in revenue

[00:00:38] Tintin: whilst I was there, he was typically averages around $5 million in revenue and a few million in profit. The YouTube channel is like the number one traffic source and core driver behind all of that revenue.

[00:00:48] Tintin: If you have a channel and you’re trying to scale it into my serious business, this episode is a masterclass. Now, you don’t get to the good ideas by trying to just focus on a few. You get to the good ideas by coming up with tons, and the way that you actually select the best ones is incredible. I’m hooked.

[00:01:06] Nathan: Welcome to the show.

[00:01:07] Tintin: Thanks, Nathan. Happy to be here.

[00:01:08] Nathan: So I wanna start with a question that I’ve been curious about, which is, how many subscribers do you need to earn a million dollars a year on YouTube?

[00:01:16] Tintin: Uh, a really good question makes a lot of sense. I think it’s probably what a lot of your audience are thinking about.

[00:01:21] Tintin: Uh, the real answer is that there is no specific number and it can be as low. As 500 or a thousand subscribers on your channel, I think because if those 500 or a thousand people are the right people and you have a high ticket business where you have a very expensive product, then you know you only need a thousand of the right people following your channel.

[00:01:42] Tintin: So, yeah, I mean, I’ve seen seven figure channels with, uh, with tens of thousands of subscribers all the way up to obviously millions of subscribers. So there’s no right answer.

[00:01:52] Nathan: Who comes to mind as someone maybe outside of the like business or making money online niche who has a smaller following and then an outsized revenue from from that?

[00:02:03] Tintin: I think the one I know personally the best is a friend of mine called Aman Manza, who actually went through Ali of Dallas kinda YouTube course. And, uh, his channel is all about helping software engineers land mm-hmm. Jobs. So it’s a great niche because obviously software engineers. Typically get paid quite well.

[00:02:21] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:02:21] Tintin: It might

[00:02:21] Nathan: be a hundred thousand, few hundred thousand dollars a

[00:02:23] year.

[00:02:23] Tintin: Exactly.

[00:02:24] Nathan: Yep.

[00:02:24] Tintin: And so they can, he can charge quite a, like a high price for his coaching program where he helps people land those jobs. And he started to hit, uh, seven figures in revenue. Revenue when he was around I think 50, 60,000 subscribers.

[00:02:38] Nathan: Yeah. It’s a lot fewer than I would expect.

[00:02:39] Tintin: Yeah. And so, uh, and he’s as like 24 as well. He’s a very impressive guy. So, um, you know, not necessarily the average example, but uh, it really doesn’t matter. Oh, it matters less how big the audience is. It just matters how intentionally you are creating that audience and the kind of offer that you have on the back of your YouTube channel.

[00:02:58] Tintin: Mm-hmm.

[00:02:58] Nathan: Yeah. Something that I talked about is the difference between an audience and a crowd.

[00:03:02] Tintin: Yeah.

[00:03:02] Nathan: Where an audience is the right people paying attention, and a crowd is just any, any views, anything. And so. If you get the right people and you have the right offer in front of them, you can actually earn quite a bit.

[00:03:13] Tintin: Yeah, absolutely. I think, I mean, that’s what I do is, uh, help YouTubers turn their audiences into businesses. And sometimes that involves like shifting from this mindset of building an audience to, or just building a crowd. Yeah. To intentionally curating your audience to be full of people who actually wanna buy from you.

[00:03:30] Nathan: Yeah. And we’ll get into all of that. Uh, before we do that, you spent a couple of years as the head of YouTube for Ali Abdal.

[00:03:35] Tintin: Yeah.

[00:03:35] Nathan: So Ali is someone who’s built a very, very impressive business. I feel like anyone who is studying YouTube, studying entrepreneurship, like knows him, knows his content and all that, you have like a behind the scenes look.

[00:03:46] Nathan: Yeah. I’m curious are first, are there any numbers that you can share? Uh, Ali’s fairly public with numbers.

[00:03:51] Tintin: Yeah. He’s fairly public. Yeah. I won’t, I won’t claim too much credit behind any of these numbers. You know, Ali’s like a very unique and impressive guy. Mm-hmm. And I obviously loved working for him, but whilst, whilst I was there, he was, and I think still to this day, typically averages around $5 million in revenue a year.

[00:04:05] Tintin: Mm-hmm. And a few million in profit and over 50% of his revenue comes from his own offers and products. So for a long time, the part-time YouTuber Academy and, uh, these days he’s got a new one called the Lifestyle Business Academy, where he helps people kind of build a lifestyle business. And, uh, the YouTube channel is the main traffic source behind the business.

[00:04:25] Tintin: So he’s obviously on Instagram, on LinkedIn, a little bit of paid ads. But, uh, until recently especially, he wasn’t actually running any paid ads. And so the YouTube channel is like the number one traffic source and core driver behind all of that revenue.

[00:04:38] Nathan: Yeah. Yeah. It’s the, the top of the funnel, the main thing that draw everyone in.

[00:04:42] Nathan: And he’s got all the other aspects to it. I think a lot of people see YouTube and they get excited about it because of the, uh, the ad revenue, right? Mm-hmm. Most platform Instagram, these other platforms, they don’t really pay you money, whereas YouTube will actually pay you on ads. Yeah. And so people have this assumption that if you get really big on YouTube, then you’re gonna be making all your money from ads and going from there.

[00:05:06] Nathan: People make money that way. But the, the channels that you’re talking about, that is not the main way they monetize, right?

[00:05:12] Tintin: Yeah, absolutely. So, uh, typically on YouTube, you can earn an average, let’s say somewhere around $5 for every thousand views that you get, which means that if you get a million views, you might get five, $5,000 from YouTube itself, which is way better than any other platform.

[00:05:28] Tintin: But the trick there is, or the catch is that it’s very hard to get a million views. Mm-hmm. And increasingly so it gets harder and harder. And, uh, the whole game with content creation really, or kind of with just with, with ads and with marketing, is how much money are you getting back for how many eyeballs you got?

[00:05:45] Tintin: Right. And YouTube give you that stat with AdSense, which is RPM revenue per meal. So how many, how much money do you make for every thousand views? And you can increase that with like, you know, a sponsor or brand deal. You might be getting, let’s say $30 for every thousand views that you get. Um, that’s kinda maybe the deal that you set up or maybe that’s roughly how they price your channel is like you get around 20,000 views per video.

[00:06:09] Tintin: So we’re gonna give you this much

[00:06:11] Nathan: right

[00:06:11] Tintin: for a video. But then you can increase that, that return, that RPM even more by selling your own offers and products. And you can start to get into territory where if you get a thousand views, you might get a hundred dollars or $500 or a thousand dollars if you have a really.

[00:06:27] Tintin: Good audience and high quality audience, and also the right offer behind it.

[00:06:31] Nathan: So now what you’re doing, now that you’re out on your own, separate from Ollie and his team mm-hmm. Um, gimme a little breakdown of that. And then if there’s an example of one of your students who has like a really high, you know, revenue per thousand sub, uh, subscribers or, or views based on having a really good offer.

[00:06:48] Tintin: So after leaving Ali’s team, I decided to launch this coaching program accelerator, uh, to help educational YouTubers with audiences, but without massive audiences like Ali Dell turn it into a business. ’cause that’s what Ali did. He kind of, he grew this audience and then he turned it into a business. And, uh, I wanted to help smaller YouTubers without as big a followings do the same and build like six figure businesses rather than trying to, um, you know, build something crazy like seven figures.

[00:07:15] Tintin: Just help people make that initial leap. And, uh, one very interesting channel or client that uh, I work with is called Amy. She has a channel all about. Uh, breaking unhealthy relationship patterns mm-hmm. Through somatic healing as well, like in, in the, uh, dealing with like your body Yep. And the kind of nervous system and things like that.

[00:07:33] Tintin: And she has a high ticket coaching business off the back of her channel where she, uh, helps people kind of overcome those hurdles. And she only has, uh, I think at the time, 45, 50,000 subscribers, and she makes a multiple six figures, which is an amazing return on that channel. And considering she doesn’t work like insane hours, I, she puts a lot of effort in, but it’s not like an overwhelming business.

[00:07:53] Tintin: And so she’s just very intentional about the content that she makes and then the offer that she presents to those people. Another interesting example of someone that I, I work with is this woman called Camille and she helps dementia caregivers. Look after their, uh, loved ones with dementia. Mm-hmm.

[00:08:08] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:08:08] Tintin: And she’s been doing it for 20 years. She’s, you know, qualified in the area. And she came to YouTube recently to start like, well, educating people who are look caregivers, who are looking after their loved ones with dementia on how to do it better and how to avoid arguments and how to make their time, uh, as easy as possible.

[00:08:23] Tintin: And she has a high ticket coaching program already, but she wasn’t making too many sales. But then we started working together and we kinda changed a few things about her channel, uh, especially like her, the idea side of things and the titles and thumbnails, just the packaging, improving that, improving the video quality a little bit.

[00:08:39] Tintin: And then in the last, uh, couple, uh, weeks, she’s actually just like her channel’s gone from about 1000 subscribers to 10,000 subscribers. She’s completely That’s amazing. Completely blown up. Her calendar’s now full of sales calls and she’s making sales and suddenly she’s got a six figure business, literally within like a couple months because she’s just putting the time on her YouTube channel.

[00:08:57] Nathan: And what I love about that is it’s not like she just went viral or something. There’s actually a system behind it.

[00:09:03] Tintin: Yeah.

[00:09:03] Nathan: And then these videos, they go out, they keep working for you.

[00:09:05] Tintin: Yeah.

[00:09:06] Nathan: Right. These videos, they might get a lot of traffic initially and then level off or dip.

[00:09:10] Tintin: Yeah.

[00:09:11] Nathan: But they’re gonna continue to get traffic and views and drive leads and all of this towards the sustainable business for a long time.

[00:09:16] Nathan: So it’s like these little assets or annuities that continue to pay you a little bit.

[00:09:21] Tintin: Yeah, absolutely. Over

[00:09:22] Nathan: time,

[00:09:22] Tintin: I think one of the best ways to think about your channel is. The goal over time is not to go viral every single time. The goal is to make a library of bingeable content around one specific transformation.

[00:09:32] Tintin: So I think most of your audience are probably, uh, gonna have channels where they’re like teaching something or helping people go from A to B in some way, like not entertainment channels, basically. And we wanna make our YouTube channel a bingeable library of content helping people go from A to B and covering all the different things that they might need to know about.

[00:09:50] Nathan: Alright, so you have flown

[00:09:51] Tintin: halfway around the world

[00:09:52] Nathan: to my studio here in Boise, Idaho in order to teach a masterclass on YouTube. Like, what are we gonna cover today?

[00:09:59] Tintin: So we’re gonna cover the ins and the outs of the production systems behind a 1 million YouTube channel from the perspective of the founder or entrepreneur.

[00:10:07] Nathan: I love that. I’m super curious to learn this myself. So let’s jump up to the board and cover it.

[00:10:11] Tintin: Awesome.

[00:10:12] Nathan: All right, so this might be the most pre-prepared board that we’ve had coming into an episode. What do we have going on here?

[00:10:18] Tintin: Yeah. Um, so I mean, I thought I thought of it about it before coming in. So we’ve got, uh, first of all on this side of things, it’s really like essentially the, the inputs from you and your team.

[00:10:27] Tintin: Okay. So what’s the team behind one of these channels? And, uh, like that can be scaled up or down as well, depending on whether you are, um, you wanna go all out, like someone like Dan Martel or Alex Tomoey or Alex Ozzi or whether you just wanna have like one video editor and it’s just you and them. And so we can talk about why you might wanna do different things there.

[00:10:43] Tintin: Sounds good. Then, uh, the schedule. So what does your schedule look like as an entrepreneur trying to build a successful YouTube channel, and how much time is it gonna take you? Then what is the overall production system? So we’ve got seven steps here. The different things that it’s gonna take to actually, uh, build one of these channels and where you’re gonna be involved in it.

[00:11:01] Tintin: And then we’ve just got five things to do and to not do as, uh, as the entrepreneur, just to kind of guide you on where’s gonna be the highest leverage use of your time.

[00:11:10] Nathan: Incredible. I’m hooked. Where do we go from here?

[00:11:14] Tintin: Okay, so why don’t we just start with the, the YouTube production systems, because that’s gonna give us the overall picture of, uh, what we need to do and what team members we might need to have in place as well.

[00:11:24] Tintin: And you know, there’s that famous James Clear quote, which is like, you don’t rise to the level of your goals. You thought the level of your system. So this is the thing that’s actually gonna get you the outcome that you want. Okay? You don’t just get views or whatever by thinking about getting views. You think you have a, a system in place.

[00:11:37] Tintin: So I think let’s, let’s cover that. Okay?

[00:11:39] Nathan: What’s number one on the systems?

[00:11:41] Tintin: So number one is positioning and strategy.

[00:11:44] Nathan: Okay?

[00:11:45] Tintin: So positioning strategy is a core pillar behind your YouTube channel, obviously is like, what are the kind of videos you’re gonna be making? What is the overall, uh, picture of your channel?

[00:11:53] Tintin: And there are three things that I think make this up that people wanna be thinking about. Okay? Keep it nice and simple. We just have you. Your avatar and your niche. Okay, so those are the three things we can just quickly explore each of those. Keep it nice and simple. This is also something that that really evolves as you make videos.

[00:12:09] Tintin: You don’t wanna like really overthink it to begin with because as you start to make videos, you start to get into the YouTube process. These things will change. But to start with, you wanna have a clear idea of, of you, so your backstory, your credibility. Mm-hmm. And fundamentally answering this question, why should I listen to you?

[00:12:23] Tintin: So your viewers, like, why should they care about what you’ve done?

[00:12:26] Nathan: Yep.

[00:12:26] Tintin: In your case, if you’re starting like a typical talking head channel, like Dam Martel or whatever, Alex Ho Mosey, you’d be saying, I’m the founder of Kit. Yeah. I mean, does this much, you know, in revenue

[00:12:34] Nathan: we built, we have a team of a hundred people.

[00:12:36] Nathan: Yeah. We built it to 50 million a year in revenue. And we serve clients like James Clear, Dan Martel, Matt Guney.

[00:12:43] Tintin: Yeah. Immediately I’m like,

[00:12:44] Nathan: okay,

[00:12:45] Tintin: okay. I’m gonna listen to this guy. That’s incredible. What an amazing kind of story. And so being really clear is just about what is your credibility, what’s your backstory?

[00:12:52] Tintin: But also what are the elements of your personality that you wanna bring into the content? So just like dialing up as much of you as possible. ’cause it’s gonna be a key. You are obviously the differentiator from Daniel Pree, Alex Homo, or any other channel in your niche. I’m using the teach the

[00:13:05] Nathan: same. So I might bring in like, like contrast some things.

[00:13:10] Nathan: I don’t live in a Las Vegas. Yeah. Highrise. I live on a little hobby farm in Boise, Idaho. Yeah. You’re gonna find me woodworking, playing volleyball and

[00:13:21] Tintin: Yeah.

[00:13:22] Nathan: You know, gardening.

[00:13:23] Tintin: Absolutely. Yeah.

[00:13:23] Nathan: When I’m not building a software.

[00:13:25] Tintin: Exactly. Yeah, exactly. And I think that that’s what makes you likable. That’s what makes people relate to you and differentiates you from the other guys in your space.

[00:13:31] Tintin: And obviously we’ve been talking about these guys in the make money niche. All of this stuff applies to any channel, whatever niche you’re in. And so then the next thing is, is avatar. So just being very clear on who it is you are targeting. Now, if you’re an entrepreneur already, you’re gonna be pretty clear on who is your ideal customer, and that’s the same person that you wanna be targeting in your content.

[00:13:48] Tintin: Yep. So hopefully you have a reasonably clear idea of that, but that’s just because. When you’re making your videos, when you’re going through the rest of these steps, you wanna be super clear on who are we actually making videos for? Who do we want to be watching these? And uh, yeah, that can be the same as in your, as in your business.

[00:14:04] Tintin: And then your niche is when you are coming to, uh, building your channel and taking your channel more seriously. You wanna have an understanding what’s going on in your space. So if you’re in the relationship space, the health space, the kind of like software engineering space, you wanna understand who are the other channels.

[00:14:19] Tintin: And the most important thing is to look for patterns in what’s working. So we don’t wanna just copy people, but we wanna understand or get a picture of what’s working, what’s not working, what are people typically looking for, what are they not looking for? And through that research, you are gonna get a clear idea of, okay, where are the gaps?

[00:14:33] Tintin: Where can I come in? Where does my experience and background lend itself to filling the gaps and the opportunities that I’ve see that I see from this research?

[00:14:40] Nathan: Yep. Does

[00:14:41] Tintin: that all make sense?

[00:14:42] Nathan: Yeah, it does.

[00:14:43] Tintin: Cool. Okay, so next thing after positioning a strategy is just gonna be ideation. So generating and then selecting video ideas for your channel.

[00:14:52] Tintin: So yeah, ideation. There are two really simple steps here. It is just generating lots and lots of ideas. You know, you don’t get to the good ideas by, uh, trying to just focus on a few. You get to the good ideas by coming up with tons. Okay. And what are all the different things I might wanna talk about on my channel?

[00:15:06] Tintin: And then the second thing is just selecting the best ones. And the way that you actually select the best ones is through doing a bit of research, what’s working well in your niche, finding those patterns, but also if you’ve got videos on your channel before, what’s worked well before is gonna be important data for selecting the next ones to make.

[00:15:23] Tintin: But those are the two simple steps to, to go through.

[00:15:25] Nathan: That sounds good.

[00:15:26] Tintin: Then the third step here is packaging. Okay, so titles and thumbnails. So titles and thumbnails. In case people don’t know, they’re the first thing that viewers see when they come onto YouTube and they come with the platform. You don’t see videos.

[00:15:38] Tintin: You see the little image, the thumbnail, and the title of the video. And so we wanna be thinking about before we commit to a video, before we actually commit to making anything and putting time into something we wanna have thought about what is the thing that the viewer’s gonna see first? Are they actually gonna be interested in this and click on it?

[00:15:52] Tintin: If they don’t click, they don’t watch. It’s a good thing to just have in your mind. And this is where it can be very helpful to have your first team member, particularly outsourcing your thumbnails. So everyone in your audience, ’cause they’re all entrepreneurs, they should definitely be outsourcing their thumbnails.

[00:16:06] Tintin: You are gonna wanna outsource your thumbnails, which, which we can come over to, to the team here to have a look at. Okay. Um, kind of what the overall team picture might look like, and then come back to the systems. That’s good as well. So at the top, you’ve obviously just got you as the entrepreneur and, uh.

[00:16:21] Tintin: You in a little box like that. Yeah. And we’re gonna assume that to build a $1 million YouTube channel, you don’t need to have this, but you might want to have a YouTube producer. So that is the role that I had with, while I was working with Ali AB Dow. And what I would do is then communicate with Ali, be his mainly his, like really his only source of communication.

[00:16:40] Tintin: Keep it simple for him, and then I’ll communicate with all the other team members involved. Okay. So let’s put YouTube producer below you. So you definitely don’t need this role. Okay. Uh, you like, if you’ve got, you know, free time as an entrepreneur, which like some people can do, like have, you know, less time spent on delivery, depending on the nature of their business, they might just have the time to do the YouTube producer role themselves.

[00:17:01] Tintin: But you’re gonna get a lot of return with someone who’s very good in this role with this. And so the YouTube producer will be coordinating with the, the thumbnail designer.

[00:17:09] Nathan: Okay.

[00:17:10] Tintin: So

[00:17:11] Nathan: where do I put them? Are they thumbnail designer right here?

[00:17:13] Tintin: Uh, let’s put them over to the left. Let’s put them over to the left.

[00:17:15] Tintin: Yeah.

[00:17:15] Nathan: Uh, we’re just gonna say designer.

[00:17:16] Tintin: Just designer. Yeah. Nice. And. Again, you know, there are lots of different variations of what a successful team might look like, but they, the YouTube producer could be doing the thumbnails themselves. I did that rally for a while and then we decided to outsource them because, uh, I’m not a particularly good designer.

[00:17:33] Tintin: Yeah. So, uh, you know, again, you could, if you happen to be like your background is in graphic design, you might be good at designing thumbnails, but it’s just not gonna be a good use. I find

[00:17:41] Nathan: that it’s a different

[00:17:43] Tintin: skill. Yeah.

[00:17:43] Nathan: Yeah. And it’s. Like being immersed in that world, having someone who specializes is a good idea.

[00:17:49] Tintin: It’s a very high return on your time because it can be the difference between a successful channel and successful. How

[00:17:55] Nathan: expensive is this role?

[00:17:56] Tintin: So thumbnail designers, uh, the benchmark really is like typically you’re paying per thumbnail.

[00:18:01] Okay.

[00:18:02] Tintin: And you’ll start to find good ones at like $50 per thumbnail.

[00:18:06] Nathan: Okay.

[00:18:06] Tintin: And that they can be harder to find. Obviously the more you’re willing to pay

[00:18:09] Nathan: mm-hmm.

[00:18:10] Tintin: Then the easier it is to find someone. Okay. The best ones, they will start to charge up to like a hundred, $200 per thumbnail.

[00:18:17] Nathan: And is that per thumbnail concept they develop or per video that they do a finished thumbnail for?

[00:18:21] Tintin: It’s typically like per finalized thumbnail. Okay. So if you want like multiple concepts, then it might be a little bit more, maybe you get some kind of package deal. Okay. But, um, you know, I work with a designer who I pay $50. Her thumbnail, but they will do a few variations for me like that they changed the text and maybe it’s like a slightly different concept and things like that.

[00:18:42] Tintin: But

[00:18:42] Nathan: let me write that down. And so you’re saying basically,

[00:18:44] Tintin: okay,

[00:18:44] Nathan: 50 to 150.

[00:18:46] Tintin: I think 50 to 200 is like, okay. Uh, just to, to give that range for, for your audience. ’cause there are gonna be some people watching who, who have the budget to spend, uh, on like the top designers. But, uh, again, this can, you can, it’s

[00:19:01] Nathan: not that expensive.

[00:19:03] Nathan: Right. If we’re talking about a video a week, we’re in the 200 to $800 a month. Yeah. Uh, on this cost year.

[00:19:10] Tintin: Yeah, exactly. And, and

[00:19:11] Nathan: you’re saying this is worth it. It’s titles and thumbnails matter.

[00:19:15] Tintin: Yeah.

[00:19:15] Nathan: So getting someone who,

[00:19:16] Tintin: yeah, it can be the difference between a channel that gets a thousand views and 50,000 views of video just because people are clicking on it and people wanna click.

[00:19:24] Tintin: But it is important to say that, uh, with AI getting better and better, there are tools that help you do both titles and thumbnails. Uh, with ai. So something like one of 10, one of ten.com

[00:19:36] Nathan: okay.

[00:19:37] Tintin: Is probably the best one out there at the moment. It doesn’t yet make your finalized thumbnail, but uh, it can give you like great inspiration and great concepts that you can kind of tweak a little bit.

[00:19:46] Tintin: And so the cost is going down. Um, but a good designer is still like worth their weight gold. So definitely something to, to consider, uh, trying to find.

[00:19:55] Nathan: Okay, that sounds good. What’s the next role?

[00:19:57] Tintin: Let’s just go to the, the next step in the systems. ’cause that’s gonna then bring out another role, which is script writing and planning.

[00:20:03] Tintin: So that’s the next thing. Once you’ve, uh, come up with a video idea and a title thumbnail for that video idea, then it kind of goes officially into production. Okay. And that’s where you then wanna start writing and planning the video. And so things, can I stop you

[00:20:18] Nathan: there

[00:20:18] Tintin: because

[00:20:20] Nathan: me not being a YouTube expert

[00:20:22] Tintin: Yeah.

[00:20:22] Nathan: These steps are backwards from what I would do.

[00:20:24] Tintin: Yeah.

[00:20:25] Nathan: I would come up with the, I would write the script. I, I would. I would actually have titles and thumbnails much later in here.

[00:20:30] Tintin: Yeah.

[00:20:30] Nathan: Uh, talk to me about why it’s number three.

[00:20:33] Tintin: So there’s, I guess, the theory here and then also the, the reality and like, what actually happens in your experience as an entrepreneur or just as a YouTuber.

[00:20:42] Tintin: So the theory is that it’s the first thing that the view sees kind of as we, as we discussed. And so we wanna start with something that the wants to click on, right? And then think about the content that comes afterwards, because sometimes, uh, you come up with, uh, well, if you make a video and then think about the Titan thumbnail afterwards, you realize I can’t figure out a way to package this very well, and therefore you’ve made this amazing video and no one’s clicked on it in the first place, right?

[00:21:02] Tintin: And that’s when, uh, you know, you get let down, the performance doesn’t work, or performance doesn’t go very well, and you kind of get a bit despondent. So it makes sense to just start with that. But the reality is that it’s very hard to finalize Titan thumbnails every single time before you commit to writing and planning.

[00:21:16] Tintin: They can be a little bit more like, these aren’t just like a hundred percent completed. One after the other. You sometimes go, like, as you write and plan, you’re like, oh, actually maybe we should tweak this. I can thumb a little bit to this.

[00:21:27] Nathan: So it can be fluid between those.

[00:21:28] Tintin: So it can be a little bit

[00:21:29] Nathan: fluid, but start with, I mean, you said packaging.

[00:21:31] Nathan: I wrote tiles and thumbs. Yeah, that’s fine. But you’re saying start with packaging. Yeah. So you know. Exactly. Yeah.

[00:21:36] Tintin: Like

[00:21:36] Nathan: did I have we come up with a concept that’s gonna get people to click?

[00:21:40] Tintin: Yeah.

[00:21:41] Nathan: Because if not, like let’s not go spend the next 20 hours on the video on.

[00:21:45] Tintin: Exactly. Yeah. And this can really depend on, uh, the channel that you have as well, right?

[00:21:50] Tintin: Like for this podcast, we’re posting this on YouTube. We put a lot of time into, into like, you know, come, I mean coming out here, you organizing it, giving up your time, and we wanted to succeed and work. And so we spoke about like the title a little bit and even the thumbnail beforehand because we wanna know that this is gonna be something that, this conversation’s gonna be something that people are interested in.

[00:22:09] Tintin: And, um, so. You want to have, uh, a as best you can, a finalized title and a finalized thumbnail concept. It doesn’t have to be completely ready.

[00:22:18] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:22:18] Tintin: But it’s just like we kind of know what we’re doing here. We know what the thumbnail text might be and uh, and then we can go into production and the writing and planning.

[00:22:26] Nathan: Okay.

[00:22:26] Tintin: And so once it’s kinda in production, again, you can do this all on your own. You don’t need a team for this. And it’s easy to overcomplicate YouTube. However, if we’re trying to recreate maybe like, you know, uh, a very successful channel, uh, like Ali AB do or something like that, you might have a script writer or someone to help you with research Okay.

[00:22:45] Tintin: And planning as well. So we can add that to the team. So an example we mentioned earlier was, uh, Aman Manza who has a channel about, uh, software engineering, landing software engineering jobs. Now, he, um, kinda wrote and plant all of his content for a while, like, um, a year to two years where he was just kind of sitting down thinking about what are the things that I wanna share in this video?

[00:23:04] Tintin: And obviously this is the, the preparation for the, the video itself. This is really important, like you want to put time into this, but effort into this. However, recently he has hired a script writer and someone he’s trained, uh, through like over several weeks and months. And someone who also had a background in this already to help him systemize that side of things.

[00:23:24] Tintin: Yeah. So what they’ll probably do is they’ll have a meeting where they come up with or they agree on the video that they, I wanna go ahead with, and then I’m on my brain dump some kind of like interesting things to talk about. And then they’ll turn it into a word for word video script.

[00:23:36] Nathan: Right?

[00:23:36] Tintin: But you obviously don’t have to have a word for word script.

[00:23:39] Tintin: Um, like, you know, in your, in your niche, if you were to do your YouTube channel, your competitors like Daniel Priestly Alex, or Moey Dan Martel, they don’t have word for word scripts. They’re kind of just explaining the ideas and concepts that they’ve had in their brain for years.

[00:23:52] Nathan: Okay.

[00:23:53] Tintin: And so.

[00:23:54] Nathan: Or they may have, they’ve, uh, distilled a bunch of things down into a book Yeah.

[00:23:59] Nathan: Or something like that. And then they’re, someone’s going through a, a writer on their team Yeah. Might be going through and saying, Hey,

[00:24:05] Tintin: yeah.

[00:24:05] Nathan: Here’s something you talked about in the book. Like, yeah, I have, we have a video packaged in this way that we want to do.

[00:24:10] Tintin: Yeah.

[00:24:10] Nathan: And you’re like, okay. Say it more like,

[00:24:12] Tintin: yeah.

[00:24:12] Nathan: Like just roll the camera and I’ll give you some good stuff.

[00:24:15] Tintin: Absolutely. Yeah. Exactly. ’cause they’re just so, they’re so fluent with those ideas.

[00:24:19] Nathan: Right.

[00:24:19] Tintin: But the thing that you do wanna do with writing planning is you do wanna script the intro word for word. Okay. Because like, as I’m sure most of your audience know, uh, with content, when people start watching it, like the intro, the first 30 seconds is where you see most drop off.

[00:24:31] Tintin: Right? So

[00:24:32] Nathan: retention matters,

[00:24:33] Tintin: it’s worth scripting the intro word for word and to set up the promise of the video to demonstrate your credibility, to make it sound like you know, something that people actually wanna watch. Right. And importantly, to confirm the expectations set by the title thumbnail as well.

[00:24:46] Nathan: Okay. Why don’t you write intro right here and we’re gonna put a star next to it or something. Okay. Um. That’s something that’s really important.

[00:24:53] Tintin: Yeah.

[00:24:53] Nathan: Yep.

[00:24:54] Tintin: Little star.

[00:24:55] Nathan: I like it.

[00:24:55] Tintin: Uh, so that is worth scripting word for word. There are some people out there who will argue that, you know, your whole video should be word for word scripted.

[00:25:02] Tintin: Mm-hmm. But, uh, it doesn’t often like account for just like enjoyment. It can’t just be really boring to read off a teleprompter.

[00:25:09] Nathan: Right.

[00:25:10] Tintin: Some people are really good at it. I dunno if you’ve seen Ramit S’S channel.

[00:25:12] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:25:13] Tintin: But, um, he’s just like, his video’s scripted word for word, but, and they’re so good. Like I love watching his channel.

[00:25:18] Tintin: I love learning about, uh, like personal finance from him, but it’s all word for word. He’s just so good on camera and he’s so good at like, acting, all that

[00:25:25] Nathan: kind of stuff. He’s done a lot of media training.

[00:25:26] Tintin: He’s done so much. He’s just been doing this stuff for like 15 years now. Yeah. But then, um, if you look at Daniel Priestly, who’s like, who’s building his channel recently, he is not scripting word for word.

[00:25:37] Tintin: He’s kind of drawing stuff and he is kind of being fluid. He’s just, he’s just got like that natural kind of charisma that comes across very well. And so it is really, uh, personal preference, but it’s also gonna be revealed kind of just through time. Of like making videos, what’s gonna work for you, whether you need a writer, whether you need a researcher, someone to help you.

[00:25:55] Nathan: Okay.

[00:25:55] Tintin: Kind of, um, like bringing your ideas to life. It, it is just very helpful to have someone who’s just kind to bounce ideas with, to kind of create mm-hmm. To help you create the content, uh, together. Basically that can be your YouTube producer, so you don’t necessarily need a writer. If you’ve got a competent YouTube producer you can balance ideas with and they can do a kind of, uh, put some content together as well.

[00:26:14] Tintin: So there are two more quick things that we wanna think about in this, in this phase as well before we into filming, which is, uh, calls to actions and lead magnet. So I can just go through both of those. Yeah. Great. So there’s actually gonna be the things that are gonna allow us to take someone from being a viewer who’s found us on YouTube for the first time.

[00:26:29] Tintin: They’ve watched one of our videos, and then we take them from being a viewer to being a potential lead, um, potential customer eventually as well, which is where your amazing software comes in. Yes, kit. So, uh, let’s start with lead magnets. As you are planning your video, you might wanna be thinking about what is the specific.

[00:26:46] Tintin: Resource that I can kind of, uh, bring into the content that my viewers are gonna want and maybe even build the content around that. So it could be some kind of template or checklist or whatever you walk through in the video. And then you can say, if you want this, uh, this resource here, you can get it by, I go into the first link in the description.

[00:27:03] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:27:04] Tintin: And then viewers have to put in there their email to get it. And then they obviously become a lead. So I’m gonna put down here, um, kind of, I’ll put down LMS for Okay. Um, lead magnets. And then the second part of that process obviously is once you’ve got the lead magnet is planning, when you’re gonna say you call to action, which typically you don’t really wanna be doing it before three minutes into the video because three minutes

[00:27:27] Nathan: we’re just focused on retention.

[00:27:28] Tintin: Your viewers haven’t really earned that. You haven’t earned that trust with them yet. They’re still just like seeing if they wanna watch the video. And so we want to kind of provide enough value before we make that call to action. Okay. If your, if your, uh, the LI Magnet is like so specifically integrated into the content, you might wanna bring it out in the intro and just be like, the thing we’re gonna be talking about in this video is this thing, and you can get it with the first linking description.

[00:27:49] Tintin: That could be like 30 seconds in.

[00:27:50] Nathan: Hey, so I got a comment the other day, which was, what do you actually do? They’d been listening to the show for a while, but enjoying the content about growing a creator business but didn’t understand what I do, and they thought maybe you’re a full-time podcaster. They didn’t realize that this is the side hustle.

[00:28:03] Nathan: My main thing is Building Kit. Kit is an email marketing platform for creators. I think one of the groups that should really pay attention to and start using Kit is anyone who’s grown a lot on social but doesn’t own that audience. Kit is built for the creators who mean business. So those are the people who have gotten a bunch of attention on social and then turned it into a sustainable business with a diversified revenue stream.

[00:28:24] Nathan: Automations a team and more. So if that’s you or you wanna become that type of creator, go check out kit.com and learn what we can do

[00:28:31] Tintin: for you.

[00:28:32] Nathan: Okay. So what you’re saying there is that the lead magnet can’t come in the very beginning, but you don’t wanna wait till the very end, right? You need it partway through the video.

[00:28:39] Nathan: Yeah. What, what does a timeline look like for that?

[00:28:41] Tintin: Let’s draw a little timeline. Okay. But, um, again, there’s obviously nuance and context to this. So let’s just do it down here. Let’s say this is the length of your whole, your whole video.

[00:28:49] Nathan: Okay.

[00:28:50] Tintin: Um, we have the kind of intro here, the first 30 seconds, let’s put, uh, just 30 seconds there.

[00:28:56] Tintin: Typically, you wanna script this word for word, and you just wanna be focusing on confirming the title, thumbnail expectation, setting up your credibility, why they, they should listen to you, and, um, laying out like a plan for the video, what value they’re gonna get. And then in terms of your call to action, again, this, this doesn’t have to be to a lead magnet.

[00:29:12] Tintin: It can be that you go direct to your offer unless you have a coaching business and it’s just book a call down below if you want help doing this thing. Yeah. So. Call to action can be to direct the offer or to the lead magnet, but typically, let’s say, let’s put the three minute mark here. You don’t wanna be doing call to action before that.

[00:29:28] Nathan: Right?

[00:29:29] Tintin: Because

[00:29:29] Nathan: So we’re, we’re pure value in

[00:29:32] Tintin: this

[00:29:32] Nathan: section. Yeah.

[00:29:32] Tintin: We just wanna be winning their attentions and trust. So

[00:29:34] Nathan: it’s hook to there and then value.

[00:29:36] Tintin: Yeah. There we go. Exactly. Exactly.

[00:29:38] Nathan: Okay.

[00:29:38] Tintin: I think that’s a, that’s a, it’s a good way of thinking about it. And then, uh, the reason for that is like, at three minutes, you’ve still got a large percentage of people watching.

[00:29:45] Tintin: Mm-hmm. You know, maybe 50% of people who clicked on it are still watching, and lots of ’em are still gonna see the thing that you are, that you’re talking about. But the later on you do it, the call to action, then the more engaged viewers, uh, are gonna be the ones who are watching. Right? And so you do see some videos where the call to action is like right at the end, you know, it’s like, let’s say 15 minutes in.

[00:30:05] Tintin: And the people who see that are just like the most engaged viewers, right? So there’s no like a hundred percent right or wrong. Can I do both? Absolutely. Yeah. So if you do two call to actions, it typically does increase the, the number of poses you’re

[00:30:15] Nathan: get. So I might do a quick one here at three minutes.

[00:30:17] Tintin: Yeah.

[00:30:17] Nathan: Right. Especially if it’s for a lead magnet that might help someone implement what’s, you know, they’re taking notes and it’s like, actually you don’t need to take notes. You could,

[00:30:23] Tintin: yeah, yeah.

[00:30:24] Nathan: Go to this link and download it right now.

[00:30:26] Tintin: Exactly. Yeah. The one exception though, as as we said, was that if your, the whole video is like around the lead magnet was around the template uhhuh, then you can mention it in this like 32nd mark.

[00:30:36] Tintin: Just say, you know, if you wanna get the template that we’re gonna be using in this video, then it’s the first link in the description. And I do that on some of my videos where I’m talking about like a specific thing.

[00:30:44] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:30:44] Tintin: So, yeah, let’s just put on here. CTAs for call to action. So this is, these are the things you kinda might wanna be thinking about in the, in the writing and planning phase, but, um, we spent a while on this, so let’s go to the ne the next one.

[00:30:55] Tintin: Okay. Which is filming. So, with filming, I think it makes sense to come to the, the schedule down here now. Okay. ’cause this is like obviously a key part of your, your responsibilities as the entrepreneur at the top of your team, no one else can do it for you.

[00:31:07] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:31:07] Tintin: And, uh, I mean, all of these talking head channels are gonna be, it’s gonna be, you are the one doing it rather than you can’t really outsource it.

[00:31:14] Nathan: Right.

[00:31:14] Tintin: And we don’t want it to be a faceless channel either. So, um, there’s a bunch of different ways of approaching filming, but one good principle to have in mind is batching. So Okay. Trying to batch record, uh, videos. Mm-hmm. So trying to record at least two, uh, in every filming session is like a good way to approach it.

[00:31:31] Tintin: Some people find that hard because they find filming just like such a tiring thing. It’s a, uh, a very helpful principle to bear in mind. And so this is a kind of monthly calendar for you as an entrepreneur. You’re gonna, everyone’s gonna find their own like schedule that works best for them. But, uh, I mean, what I do is I actually record every single Thursday and I, I, okay.

[00:31:51] Tintin: And I try to film, uh, at least one, ideally two. That’s kind of the rule I set for myself. And that’s ’cause I like filming, um, on like a regular basis. I find that if I film once a month, I just like lose kind of touch with the skill, I guess. Okay. And it is a skill, it’s like a really key part of the system is you coming across well on camera, presenting your ideas.

[00:32:09] Tintin: Well, articulating stuff well,

[00:32:11] Nathan: right.

[00:32:11] Tintin: So that’s what I do. But, um, I know some Alex or Moey, for example, he shared that he just does one filming day a month and he just like batch films, uh, 4, 5, 6 videos all in one day. So they do all of this stuff, the preparation in advance, and then just like knock it off in one day.

[00:32:28] Nathan: So he’s gonna take a single day, I don’t know, let’s say it’s this Tuesday or something like

[00:32:32] that.

[00:32:32] Tintin: Once a month. Yeah. Just one full day

[00:32:33] Nathan: and he’s got the entire day.

[00:32:35] Tintin: Yeah. Just to like really get into it. But that again, uh, can be quite a lot. It’s just like quite draining. Filming videos is quite tiring. So, uh,

[00:32:45] Nathan: like one thing that I found is one time trip, we tried to do four podcast episodes in a day.

[00:32:50] Nathan: Yeah. Because we had the studio, we were offsite and all of that. And we actually didn’t end up publishing the, the fourth video because we didn’t, we didn’t quite get the packaging Right. And a few things, but really it was just, I didn’t have the energy

[00:33:01] Tintin: really

[00:33:02] Nathan: to do it any, you know, I was like, I did not produce a good video because it was on hour eight of filming.

[00:33:08] Tintin: Yeah.

[00:33:08] Nathan: And the fire alarm had gone off at 5:00 AM in the hotel that morning. So, you know, there’s some complicated factors, but really like what you’re saying is, or what I heard in that is two different things, one or three things. Uh, first always batch record. Even if it’s means two.

[00:33:24] Tintin: Yeah.

[00:33:24] Nathan: Right. Because then if you miss a week, you end up being sick, whatever.

[00:33:27] Nathan: Right? Yeah, exactly. You’ve got a little buffer. The second thing is to keep it to a system where if you do it often enough, you stay in the rhythm and you’re not, like a month later you’re like, how?

[00:33:36] Tintin: Yeah.

[00:33:36] Nathan: How do I do this? Exactly. Yeah. Especially if you’re not a professional yet. Yeah. Like Alex Ram Moey doing this at such a huge scale, like he’s a machine.

[00:33:43] Nathan: Yeah. But you know, maybe you or I starting in YouTube were like, oh, I need to actually keep this skill fresh.

[00:33:48] Tintin: Yeah.

[00:33:49] Nathan: Um, you and I are both pilots.

[00:33:50] Tintin: Yeah.

[00:33:51] Nathan: Right. If you were to not fly for oh a month, you like that first time you get back in, you’re like, okay, yep. Let me, like the muscle memory has to come back.

[00:33:59] Nathan: So same thing on the YouTube videos.

[00:34:01] Tintin: Yeah.

[00:34:01] Nathan: And the third thing I heard you say is to really align the quantity of recording, uh, with like your own output and energy levels and all of that. Yeah, absolutely. Because the last thing that we want is to record a bunch of videos. Just notice later, you know, in the edit or something else of like, well, I just didn’t have any energy.

[00:34:21] Nathan: Like, those later videos weren’t good. I didn’t do, like, I did a huge disservice to the writing and the thumbnail and planning.

[00:34:27] Tintin: Yeah. All this prep. Yeah. Prep

[00:34:28] Nathan: because I just, I didn’t perform.

[00:34:30] Tintin: Yeah. A hundred. Exactly. A hundred percent. So I think it’s gonna look different for everyone. Mm-hmm. You need to find your kind of rhythm.

[00:34:36] Tintin: And, you know, it’s worth saying here as well, that, uh, like filming is a really core pillar, obviously, in the whole process. Okay. And putting filming dates in the calendar is what forces all of this stuff to actually happen. Okay. Because you’re like, oh my gosh, I’ve got a filming day next Tuesday.

[00:34:50] Nathan: Right.

[00:34:50] Tintin: If I need to get some fricking ideas down, I need to get some titles and thumbnails down.

[00:34:54] Tintin: I need to plan some videos. So it’s like, it’s the thing that when it’s in the calendar, kind of forces everything else into the forcing portion into action, which is really helpful.

[00:35:02] Nathan: Yep.

[00:35:02] Tintin: So you find your, your filming schedule and then you commit to it. That’s what then makes everything else happen. And I also think it’s quickly worth mentioning him at this point.

[00:35:12] Tintin: You might be like, one of your audience might be listening or watching for this and being like, oh my gosh, there’s so many things. This whole team, there’s all these like systems and whatever. Um, but we, we spoke previously about this, uh, channel called, uh, by a guy called UL Wells. And UL’s strategy for all of this stuff was, uh, to just take out video, uh, take out his phone, record a video every single day, about 10 minutes long, and just share his experience working as a financial advisor for 20 years.

[00:35:38] Tintin: And he just didn’t overcomplicate it.

[00:35:40] Nathan: I think he’s been to Craft and Commerce. I think he’s been, studio has

[00:35:43] Tintin: studios. He prob has he he lives in

[00:35:44] Nathan: Salt Lake, right?

[00:35:45] Tintin: Uh, I actually dunno where he lives.

[00:35:46] Nathan: Yeah. I’m pretty sure he’s been, I’ve met him. I think he’s recorded here.

[00:35:50] Tintin: Okay.

[00:35:50] Nathan: Uh,

[00:35:50] Tintin: in

[00:35:51] Nathan: kid studios.

[00:35:51] Tintin: He’s a great like creator and entrepreneur.

[00:35:53] Nathan: Yep.

[00:35:54] Tintin: And that was his strategy. And he went to zero to a hundred thousand subscribers in a year. Mm-hmm. And so, whatever variation of this you end up going for, it’s gonna take a lot of effort, but it doesn’t have to be complicated. It doesn’t have to be feel heavy. It, you have to find your version of it that feels fun.

[00:36:07] Tintin: It feels energizing. ’cause otherwise you’re just not gonna continue with it like Right. So, you know, I think every, we encourage the audience to take everything with like a pinch of salt here. Yeah. To find their rhythm, to find their approach. And this is, this is very much the like. All in kind of strategy, right?

[00:36:21] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:36:21] Tintin: That’s what we want. Um, the dam Martel kind of approach, like maybe you could got a videographer in there or something, but, um, yeah. Okay. I think that’s everything with, with filming, I guess. Anything else you wanted to go through there or,

[00:36:31] Nathan: yeah. Um, that sounds good on filming and then we’ll come back to the schedule as we

[00:36:34] Tintin: Cool.

[00:36:34] Tintin: Yeah.

[00:36:35] Nathan: Fill in more things.

[00:36:35] Tintin: So number six is then editing. Okay. So, uh, definitely not something you should be doing yourself, um, which is like a little teaser for one of the things not to do, but, uh, yeah. Most videos on YouTube need to be edited, so.

[00:36:49] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:36:50] Tintin: I know we just mentioned is all his videos aren’t edited.

[00:36:53] Tintin: Uh, they, they are a bit more now, but, um, you know, most of them are gonna need some kind of editing and it is not a good thing for you to be spending your time.

[00:37:00] Okay.

[00:37:01] Tintin: As an entrepreneur doing that’s another team or learning how to do. So this is another team member, video editor. Cool. So I think it’s worth mentioning at this point that.

[00:37:09] Tintin: It can be that you don’t have a YouTube producer here, it’s just you communicating with the writer, the editor, and the designer.

[00:37:15] Nathan: Right. The trade off that I’m noticing in that there’s always this, this time, money trade off.

[00:37:20] Tintin: Yeah.

[00:37:21] Nathan: And I don’t know how to map it out exactly, but if we, you know, if we have this trade off between time and money, there might be an element of velocity as well.

[00:37:31] Nathan: So of how quickly do I want results?

[00:37:34] Tintin: Yeah.

[00:37:34] Nathan: So if I have far more time than money

[00:37:38] Tintin: Yeah.

[00:37:39] Nathan: Then let’s eliminate this YouTube producer role. Yeah. Right. And I can do more of this myself.

[00:37:43] Tintin: Yeah.

[00:37:43] Nathan: And all of that.

[00:37:44] Tintin: And upskill myself as well.

[00:37:45] Nathan: Yeah, exactly. Which is always a good thing.

[00:37:48] Tintin: Always helpful.

[00:37:48] Nathan: If I have more money than time, if time is the biggest constraint in my life, then absolutely.

[00:37:53] Nathan: Hire this role.

[00:37:54] Tintin: Yeah.

[00:37:55] Nathan: And ’cause the other thing is it like how, how long am I willing to wait for results?

[00:38:00] Tintin: Yeah.

[00:38:00] Nathan: If I need results this year. Like, I’m probably gonna double down on a, on a high quality team. Yeah. Spend more money and do that early.

[00:38:08] Tintin: Yeah.

[00:38:08] Nathan: But if I’m like, look, I’m playing the long game and I’m like, I’m okay with this, this curve looking pretty flat.

[00:38:15] Nathan: Yeah. And then starting to climb and I’m money constrained then. Great.

[00:38:19] Tintin: Yeah.

[00:38:19] Nathan: Go without the producer.

[00:38:20] Tintin: Exactly. Yeah. And learn

[00:38:21] Nathan: more of these yourself.

[00:38:22] Tintin: I mean, and also generally, like long term you’re better off, like knowing more about the process.

[00:38:26] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:38:27] Tintin: Learning the skills anyway. Like setting up the foundations for a good channel.

[00:38:30] Tintin: But yeah, if you want to kind of, um, like I think when, when Dan Martel, I know we’ve mentioned him a few times. Mm-hmm. When he wanted to go all in on YouTube, like two, three years ago, he hired the whole thing

[00:38:38] Nathan: Right.

[00:38:39] Tintin: And was like consultants and everyone and just like all in and then, you know, surprise his channel.

[00:38:43] Tintin: Like really blew off. Right? Blew off. Yeah. His channel blew up. Um, but yeah, video editing. And I, ideal world as well, uh, if you’ve got a YouTube producer, you don’t even review edits. So with, when I was working for Ali, um, it was kind of amazing to, to watch really. He would like film the video and then he would press like the button on the, on the camera to stop recording and that was the end of his process for the whole thing.

[00:39:07] Tintin: Okay. I would then take the SD card out, I would then upload the footage to, to Google Drive.

[00:39:12] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:39:12] Tintin: And, uh, then the editors would download the footage, uh, kind of automatically ’cause they have access to the folder. Then they would edit it, upload it to a software called frame.io. Mm-hmm. Which is like probably the most popular one for reviewing, uh, reviewing content and then the YouTube producer.

[00:39:28] Tintin: So me in this scenario, I would then review the video, um, because I’d learn the skills, like, and Ali was, trust me, at that point.

[00:39:35] Nathan: Yep.

[00:39:35] Tintin: And then it would be, I, I would, I would do a round of feedback, just share some comments. It’s great if you can get to just one round of feedback that’s like, that’s what I do with my editor now is they send me the thing, I leave a couple comments and then they just upload it straight to YouTube studio so they have access to YouTube studio, they upload it there.

[00:39:53] Tintin: And, uh, yeah, that’s kind of like what it, what it should look like from, uh, from the entrepreneur’s perspective in an ideal world.

[00:40:01] Nathan: Alright, so in a minute we’re gonna get to the five things to do and the five things not to do. But before we do that, what is the last system?

[00:40:07] Tintin: The final part of the system is admin and analytics.

[00:40:11] Tintin: Okay. Just putting ’em in one in one kind of bucket. Admin is just like managing YouTube studios, so actually scheduling the videos, making sure they’ve got the right descriptions and things like that. And then the analytics side of things is reviewing the video performance, uh, not just from a views perspective, but also from how many leads did it generate for your business or potentially just sales directly.

[00:40:31] Tintin: And so that’s kind of just like all the stuff that comes after you’ve, uh, posted the video

[00:40:37] Nathan: mm-hmm.

[00:40:37] Tintin: As well. So, and

[00:40:39] Nathan: who on the team is doing that?

[00:40:40] Tintin: So yeah, if you’ve got a YouTube producer, it can be them. Um, if it’s, uh. If you don’t have a YouTube producer, it can be you, it can also be the video editor because they’re the one who’s also uploading the video to YouTube.

[00:40:51] Tintin: They’re

[00:40:51] Nathan: already in

[00:40:52] Tintin: there. They’re kind of already in there. They might as well just continue on. It depends on the relationship you have with your editor.

[00:40:56] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:40:57] Tintin: Um, but we also didn’t mention the, the cost for these guys as well. Oh yeah. So we’ll quickly go through.

[00:41:01] Nathan: Yeah. So what is the, the cost for the, actually lemme take an orange.

[00:41:05] Nathan: Yeah. Sorry, my colors to match. Um, how do you structure payments for a writer and what does that cost?

[00:41:10] Tintin: So writers can, it can be a tricky one. Okay. ’cause they, it’s often like not that good a return for or not necessarily worth it for you as an entrepreneur to pay for what it takes a writer to do. And obviously we haven’t really mentioned AI in that part of the process.

[00:41:24] Tintin: AI can obviously do quite a good job these days with like, uh, scripting something for you if you can train it and give all the context. But a good script writer these days is, uh, it might be some, somewhere between 500 to a thousand dollars per video.

[00:41:37] Nathan: Okay.

[00:41:38] Tintin: So I think per video is typically the best way to think about it.

[00:41:44] Tintin: Uh, you can, some script writers might charge per the hour or something like that. I’m sure there are some script writers out there who are like, either I’m not getting paid that much, or, you know, I’m, I’m charging way more. Way more. Yeah. But like, it’s a, as a general rule, it’s something to go off. Yeah. But it just, ’cause it takes, like, to write a good word for word script.

[00:42:01] Tintin: Mm-hmm. It’s gonna take someone like. You know, maybe a day or two even with AI to like, you know, to kind of really actually get something high quality

[00:42:08] Nathan: and hopefully they’re reading it out loud to themselves. Yeah. And, and they’re thinking like, not just is the written word great, but does it flow? Does it

[00:42:14] Tintin: sound Exactly.

[00:42:15] Tintin: And two good channels to look out there, actually both in the personal finance space are Ramit sat, who we mentioned earlier, very well scripted videos, just like, they’re so good. I watched ’em, I say, wow, this is a work of art. And I’m sure that he pays his script writers somewhere in that range. Mm-hmm. And then, uh, the other one is Damien Talks money.

[00:42:32] Tintin: Okay. A UK personal finance channel. And he, uh, has, has a team, something like this. And he’s, he spends 90% of his time writing ’cause that’s where he thinks like the leverages on his channel. He

[00:42:43] Nathan: personally spends

[00:42:44] Tintin: that, he personally spends that time writing. He doesn’t have a script writer, but his videos are very well produced and made and word forward scripts.

[00:42:51] Tintin: So just a good example channel to look at. Okay. Um, and then should we come to the the video editor? Video editor? Yeah. So this is, uh, again, there’s like nuance and context, but typically $150 per video

[00:43:04] Nathan: Okay.

[00:43:04] Tintin: Is the, the kind of lowest you probably want to be.

[00:43:07] Nathan: Okay.

[00:43:07] Tintin: As an entrepreneur trying to take this seriously.

[00:43:09] Tintin: So above that, you’re gonna start to find editors who have good experience. Mm-hmm. And. Uh, actually know what they’re doing. You can go all the way up to like a thousand dollars per video here. Okay. Now, if you’re getting videos that are edited, something like, you know, Ali Dial’s videos or Daniel Priestley’s videos, which have lots of graphics and kind of animations, it’s gonna be like near a thousand dollars.

[00:43:30] Tintin: But obviously if you’re just getting started, you probably want someone in the like $200 video if someone’s

[00:43:34] Nathan: cutting a talking head video.

[00:43:36] Tintin: Yeah.

[00:43:36] Nathan: And that sort of thing without the animations or the

[00:43:38] cuts.

[00:43:39] Tintin: Yeah, it’s doing the basic stuff. Yeah, maybe like 2, 2, 300 for someone who’s good and um, you know, typically per video you can get people on retainers as well.

[00:43:48] Tintin: You can have different setups there

[00:43:49] Nathan: as you have a predictable schedule.

[00:43:51] Tintin: Yeah.

[00:43:51] Nathan: You’re like, Hey, we might, we could be doing, you get someone really good, you might be like, okay, we’re 4,000 a month for the four videos.

[00:43:56] Tintin: Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

[00:43:57] Nathan: But I may able to lock someone in ’cause I’m making this bigger commitment.

[00:44:00] Tintin: Yeah, exactly. And a good tip actually, just for, for everyone watching is the, the best place to find all of these people typically is in your audience. So,

[00:44:08] Nathan: okay.

[00:44:09] Tintin: Obviously if you don’t have an audience, then you have to go find ’em elsewhere, right? If you do have an audience already. Mm-hmm. The reason that’s so good is because they,

[00:44:14] Nathan: they already love

[00:44:15] Tintin: your material.

[00:44:15] Tintin: They already love your stuff and they already know what, know, kind of what your channel’s about. They just like, they know, they have that intuitive sense of what not to do and what to do. So,

[00:44:22] Nathan: so these are all freelance roles. Do you do the YouTube producer?

[00:44:26] Tintin: Yeah.

[00:44:27] Nathan: Part-time, full-time freelance.

[00:44:29] Tintin: It depends on how seriously you’re taking it.

[00:44:30] Tintin: Okay. I think if you’re going all in, you know, um, you wanna hire someone full-time Yeah. It’s very helpful. They’re just gonna be helping you make the channel better from mm-hmm. From like, well, yeah, from day one, but you can get someone kind of fractional or like part-time to start with. And best way probably is just like a day rate to start with.

[00:44:44] Tintin: Mm-hmm. Like, think about, um, what should that be? Go and, uh,

[00:44:49] Nathan: so from the fractional side, how would you structure that?

[00:44:52] Tintin: Um, so maybe it’s just they’re doing like a certain number of hours or certain of days per week and transparently. I actually have less experience with knowing exactly what the, what someone who’s doing that would charge Uhhuh.

[00:45:02] Tintin: Even though I was doing it myself, I was on a full-time salary from, from the full-time perspective, I can share that, you know, salaries for the YouTube producer role. Someone who’s good mm-hmm. Might range between like, uh, in dollars, $60,000 to like all the way up to like 120,000. If you’ve got some, like a really serious channel and you’ve got like someone who’s got tons of experience in the YouTube space, it might be somewhere in that range.

[00:45:21] Tintin: Like, you know, hormo is probably up of that. The top end Yeah. Kind of thing maybe, but then

[00:45:25] Nathan: higher.

[00:45:25] Tintin: Um, then if you’re just like, uh, yeah. On the lower end of, of that spectrum, it’s probably gonna be somewhere around there, but you want someone who’s got experience doing this stuff.

[00:45:33] Nathan: What if on, on the fractional side, if you’re just like, look, I need someone part-time to do all of this, is that like a monthly retainer?

[00:45:41] Nathan: How

[00:45:41] Tintin: would you Yeah, I think I’d probably structure it with like a monthly retainer. Um, maybe a day rate to start with, and then transition into a monthly retainer as well. And the day rate, like, you know, different people come to you with different, obviously asking for different things, but like you might say it could be somewhere between like two 50 to $500 a day potentially.

[00:45:58] Tintin: Okay. Um, again, take that with a, with a pinch of salt.

[00:46:01] Nathan: You say two 50 plus per

[00:46:03] Tintin: day. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:46:05] Nathan: Okay.

[00:46:06] Tintin: And all of these roles, well, actually, um, not all of these roles, these roles, editor, writer, designer, um, you know, you want someone with experience. Typically you can train people, but, um, you’ll just obviously move faster with someone who’s done it before.

[00:46:18] Tintin: And with YouTube producer, you can, that role is like quite trainable. So you can find someone who just like, loves YouTube mm-hmm. As a good sense of organization, loves your

[00:46:25] Nathan: content,

[00:46:26] Tintin: loves your content. It’s like someone to just help, help you with the channel. And, uh, then they can learn the skills of like ideation, ties, thumbnails, all that kind of stuff.

[00:46:34] Nathan: Okay. And, and because they’re following a system that someone Yeah. Like yourself has put together and said

[00:46:40] Tintin: Yeah.

[00:46:40] Nathan: You know, like, watch this video.

[00:46:42] Tintin: Yeah.

[00:46:43] Nathan: Here’s the role

[00:46:43] Tintin: in theory.

[00:46:44] Nathan: Yeah. As the producer, you’re working on these aspects of

[00:46:46] Tintin: it, these things. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. That

[00:46:48] Nathan: kind of thing. So the, the things I would look for in that producer and add to this or correct anything, I would look for a love for the niche Yeah.

[00:46:54] Nathan: That you’re in.

[00:46:55] Tintin: Absolutely.

[00:46:55] Nathan: Uh, you know, your content specifically a love for YouTube. Mm-hmm. Where like on their free time

[00:47:01] Tintin: Yeah.

[00:47:01] Nathan: They’re studying all of this stuff. Um, like a high aptitude for learning.

[00:47:06] Tintin: Yeah.

[00:47:06] Nathan: Where they tend to learn something once and it sticks with them or

[00:47:09] Tintin: mm-hmm.

[00:47:10] Nathan: Um, that kind of thing.

[00:47:11] Nathan: You don’t have to tell them like, go learn this. Exactly. Yeah. They’re like, oh yeah, I was already watching videos about time. Yeah, exactly. I’m already learning it. And last thing is someone who’s good at systems and follow up

[00:47:18] Tintin: Yeah.

[00:47:19] Nathan: Of like, is this schedule running on time? Yeah. Can I coordinate between these people?

[00:47:24] Nathan: Did we make sure the editor hit their deadline?

[00:47:26] Tintin: Yeah, exactly. A good YouTube producer is like, is like a manager of a business, like a general manager. They’re like, okay, this is the system that we have. Like, is everything working? What needs improvement? Um, where are we kind of falling short? Like all that kind of stuff.

[00:47:38] Tintin: They, and they’re just taking a ton of stuff off the, off the, the entrepreneur’s plate.

[00:47:42] Nathan: Alright. So this gives a clear view on the team. What I’m most curious about is this list of five things to do and then what not to do because I’m like, okay, I can jump into all of this. Yeah. And like, but what exactly should I be spending my time on?

[00:47:54] Nathan: Versus what things should I not touch at all?

[00:47:56] Tintin: Cool. Yeah, let’s, let’s just go through the first, the five things to do first. Okay. Then we can come to not what not to do. So obviously number one is just, is filming,

[00:48:03] Nathan: right? That requires me as the,

[00:48:05] Tintin: yeah, you can’t, as the talent, you can’t, you can’t really replace it.

[00:48:07] Tintin: And uh, if you don’t like filming, then YouTube’s gonna be, gonna be hard. Pick a different, or just pick something else. Yeah. Yeah. But, uh, yeah, you’re not gonna be able to remove yourself from that. And so obviously you wanna put that into your calendar. Have those blocks of time, like very much cemented in there.

[00:48:22] Tintin: So then after filming, the next thing is gonna be positioning and strategy. So you want to be involved in that. Obviously you don’t want someone, you making that up for you. And, uh, that’s just like a conversation either with yourself or with your, your YouTube producer where you’re just like, you know, how am I fitting into the space, the space, space?

[00:48:41] Tintin: And, uh, obviously thinking about these things like you, your avatar, your niche, just like, you know, being very clear about those things in your mind when you’re kind of approaching the channel. Then the next thing is ideation. So, uh, I even noticed like before this, um, this, uh, session we’re doing now, you were talking to your kinda Instagram person about, um, you know, different ideas that you have for Instagram reels.

[00:49:00] Tintin: Yep. It’s just very much like a natural thing for the entrepreneur, free flow entrepreneur to be doing free. It’s just like you’re gonna have ideas about the content you wanna make. And so the way that I’d be, would be thinking about this is, um, number one rule is whenever you have an idea for a piece of content, YouTube or anything, just write it down or tell someone about it.

[00:49:16] Tintin: So either tell someone on your team or just write down your phone. It’s gonna come, come to you later. Um, but then, but you don’t wanna be doing the deep research into what’s performing well, trying to un really understand your niche. Trying to like, use tools like one of 10 to try and find video outliers to like, get inspiration of what’s working that you want.

[00:49:34] Tintin: Ideally, you want a YouTube producer to be helping with or potentially, uh, a consultant that can help with that, right? If, obviously, if you’re on your own, you can, you can do it on your, you can do it like by yourself, but with the more complicated team setup, really, you wanna be in like the approvals process here.

[00:49:50] Tintin: So you come up with video ideas, you pass ’em on, and then you have like a dedicated meeting potentially. Once a month or once every two weeks. Yeah.

[00:49:57] Nathan: Where would we fit that in

[00:49:58] Tintin: the

[00:49:58] Nathan: schedule? So

[00:49:59] Tintin: I think you can just put like maybe once every two weeks or, um, something like that. Okay. You have like an intentional ideation meeting?

[00:50:06] Tintin: Um, exactly like that. Yeah. You have an ideation meeting, which is where you just discuss the video ideas that you wanna make on the channel. And it can be half an hour, can be an hour or something like that. And your producer or, uh, you and someone else. You can just go through the list of ideas that you’ve got.

[00:50:23] Tintin: Uh, it might spark some new ones and then you can just like choose the ones that you’re actually gonna commit to production. Mm-hmm. So it’s very helpful to have an ideation meeting. It can be once a month and you just like set the videos, uh, that you’re gonna do for that month. Right. On one day. That’s kind of nice and simple as well.

[00:50:37] Tintin: But uh, yeah, that’s kind of how it would

[00:50:40] Nathan: Okay.

[00:50:40] Tintin: Would, would work from the entrepreneur perspective. And then the fourth one was scripting and planning. So,

[00:50:46] Nathan: okay. You involved in that?

[00:50:48] Tintin: You are involved in it in the sense that, um, obviously you are. Like the source of all the, the knowledge and experience this channel is about you and your

[00:50:58] Nathan: right, your 25 years of personal finance

[00:51:00] Tintin: experience.

[00:51:00] Tintin: Exactly. You can’t just repeat, you can’t just outsource that to a, to a writer Completely.

[00:51:04] Nathan: Much as you might wanna. So I

[00:51:04] Tintin: see

[00:51:05] Nathan: a lot of these creators who are really successful. Like, they come on the scene and they blow up in a big way.

[00:51:08] Tintin: Yeah.

[00:51:09] Nathan: They have expertise already. Yeah. They’re not like trying to learn

[00:51:11] Tintin: Yeah.

[00:51:12] Nathan: Being a creator and

[00:51:13] Tintin: Yeah.

[00:51:14] Nathan: Become a neuroscientist. Yeah, exactly. You know, it’s like Andrew Huberman already had all this credibility and he is like, cool. So this podcast thing, how like

[00:51:22] Tintin: Yeah.

[00:51:23] Nathan: Just talking to the mic and Yeah. You know, like great that

[00:51:25] Tintin: Exactly. Yeah. And he can’t just get someone to like script his content

[00:51:27] Nathan: Right.

[00:51:28] Tintin: For him or plan his content. So, uh, an interesting challenge.

[00:51:31] Nathan: It’s gonna be like seven viral waste to whoever’s like, this has no credit, like

[00:51:35] Tintin: Yeah, exactly. Um, a channel that’s like been blowing up recently. This a guy called Callaway, have you come across him? So he’s got like 300,000 subscribers maybe in the last like, uh, 18 months or something like that.

[00:51:45] Tintin: And, um, his video’s a scripted word for word, but, uh, he’s, his content is about his experience as, uh, in the social media game. So he’s, he helps people kinda blow up on social media and um, uh, so he’s probably working with a script writer, but he’ll be sharing like brain dumping, kind of what he wants to talk about.

[00:52:05] Tintin: Maybe an interesting anecdote, um, that he’s like, well, we should get that into the video. And then someone can take that from him and turn it into a script. If you want to turn it into a word for word script. But then Alex Ozzi is just an example. Your audience know he has unscripted videos. Yeah. But what he’ll probably be doing is having conversations with his team about like, okay, we’re gonna go through these specific points.

[00:52:25] Tintin: These maybe these diagrams I’m gonna draw. And his team like, well, I wouldn’t do that, I would do that.

[00:52:30] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:52:30] Tintin: Um, all that kind of stuff. But you need to be involved in the script and planning process. You don’t want to turn up to a filming day that you’ve got in the calendar and see a script that you’ve not read.

[00:52:38] Nathan: Right.

[00:52:38] Tintin: So that is a mistake that me and Ali made a bunch of times, um, was that. I’d be like, Ali, we’ve got the script and we’re gonna film it today. And then he would read the script and be like, oh, I, I wouldn’t quite say it like that. Or like,

[00:52:49] Nathan: right.

[00:52:50] Tintin: All this kinda stuff. We’d approved the idea, but then the script wasn’t what mm-hmm.

[00:52:53] Tintin: What he was expecting. So, and

[00:52:54] Nathan: so these, these scripting days, like review days are really, really,

[00:52:58] Tintin: yeah. So this is these, we had them in for ideation, but they can be, um, would you

[00:53:02] Nathan: do it together?

[00:53:02] Tintin: Well, actually me, what I did with Ali was we had a separate then like script, uh, review session. Okay. So from Ali’s perspective, all he was doing was the filming day.

[00:53:12] Tintin: Yeah. Which he actually did every week. An ideation session or kind of an approval session, and then a script review. And the reason we kept ’em separate was just. Uh, to kind of have like just distinct

[00:53:23] Nathan: stages. Well, there’s in idea ideation, there’s no bad ideas. Yeah. You’re throwing it out there.

[00:53:27] Tintin: You’re in different

[00:53:27] Nathan: mode in, in scripting and writing and planning.

[00:53:30] Nathan: Yeah. There’s lots of bad ideas. Yeah. You’re like, don’t say that. That’s terrible. Yeah. And so to step into the different

[00:53:34] Tintin: head space. Yeah. So, okay. Um,

[00:53:37] Nathan: so then, what am I doing here? So

[00:53:38] Tintin: we can Orange

[00:53:39] Nathan: again.

[00:53:39] Tintin: Oh yeah.

[00:53:40] Nathan: Maybe,

[00:53:41] Tintin: what am I, uh, I guess putting it, it depends on your filming schedule, but you just wanna make sure that for the filming day that you’ve got in, that you have seen, you know what you’re gonna do.

[00:53:51] Nathan: Would you do it um, on a different, actually I’m gonna say with yellow go a different shape.

[00:53:56] Tintin: Yeah.

[00:53:56] Nathan: Um, would you do it on a, like, let’s see, we’re on scripting. Uh, would you do scripting every week if we’re recording every week? Or would you batch that more and like, we could review and improve? Three to four scripts.

[00:54:10] Tintin: Yeah. I think it, it obviously depends on your team and your setup. Mm-hmm. But I would batch script writing as much as you can.

[00:54:16] Nathan: Okay.

[00:54:16] Tintin: So, um, yeah, why don’t we put in like, uh,

[00:54:20] Nathan: like two for the month.

[00:54:21] Tintin: Two for the month? Okay. Yeah. Something like that.

[00:54:22] Nathan: So I’m,

[00:54:24] Tintin: yeah.

[00:54:24] Nathan: Here’s our, I’m gonna have to draw a key later Exactly.

[00:54:27] Nathan: So people can

[00:54:28] Tintin: Yeah,

[00:54:28] Nathan: I understand this.

[00:54:30] Tintin: So, so every, so essentially what we’ve got going on here is like, potentially the entrepreneur in question. They, every two weeks they are deliberately coming up with some video ideas and connecting to a few. Then they’re scripting and planning their videos. They’re batching it.

[00:54:43] Tintin: Maybe they’re doing that just like a whole morning or a whole day. They’re just like getting all like the, the content down that they wanna talk about, maybe turning it into a word for word script. Mm-hmm. And then they’re filming once a month, twice a month, or four times a month, whatever, um, works for them.

[00:54:58] Nathan: Yep. So if I were to map these out here, and if I just put my legend on here, the film is a check mark or all day filming was, uh.

[00:55:07] Tintin: Yeah,

[00:55:07] Nathan: our grid, that’s our Alex Hermo where it’s like,

[00:55:10] Tintin: yeah, yeah. He’s just going for it.

[00:55:11] Nathan: Do the full batch. Then ideation was our circle. Yeah. And scripting is our X. And so they’re sort of the key frame on watching Exactly.

[00:55:21] Nathan: Of like what those aligned to.

[00:55:23] Tintin: Yeah.

[00:55:23] Nathan: And you could put these on some of these on the same day or some other things, but what we’re getting at is that these are ideation and scripting are two separate things.

[00:55:33] Tintin: Yeah.

[00:55:34] Nathan: Like go get lunch between those two activities. Like go, you know, like

[00:55:37] Tintin: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:55:38] Nathan: Get in a different head space.

[00:55:39] Tintin: Different head space. Yeah. And finally, number five is just performance. And so as the entrepreneur, you wanna be reviewing whether all this effort that you’re putting in the team, potentially that you’ve put together is actually generating return, is actually performing for you. And obviously the most important metric behind all of that is sales.

[00:55:57] Tintin: Mm. So we don’t care about, uh, views for view’s sake. It’s nice ’cause it builds our personal brand. More people know about us, right? More views is nice, but ultimately entrepreneurs care about sales. And so is the work that we’re doing driving sales for our business. And so a big part of this, we didn’t actually uh, talk about this too much, uh, up here, but in analytics is, uh, tracking your links.

[00:56:20] Tintin: Mm-hmm. So that was one thing that we actually, we missed. Okay. Was being able to track how many links, uh, how many clicks are your links getting

[00:56:27] Nathan: to a lead magnets

[00:56:28] Tintin: to a lead magnet or to an offer.

[00:56:30] Nathan: Yep.

[00:56:30] Tintin: And potentially how many, uh, sales are those clicks generating as well? ’cause there are tools out there that do that.

[00:56:35] Tintin: So one popular one is psychometrics.

[00:56:37] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:56:38] Tintin: Uh, which is like a, a very popular software for just tracking. Your marketing costs. So seeing where, where people come from.

[00:56:44] Nathan: Yeah. If you’re on the pro plan for Kit, you get a free license to psychometrics.

[00:56:48] Tintin: Oh,

[00:56:48] Nathan: so

[00:56:48] Tintin: amazing. There. You do. Yeah. So that’s, it’s

[00:56:50] Nathan: a great

[00:56:50] piece

[00:56:50] Tintin: of software.

[00:56:50] Tintin: So that’s probably integrates super nicely with, um, uh, using Kit for your lead magnets and stuff like that. Mm-hmm. There’s one from Ed Lawrence who, uh, has a channel about a lot of this stuff, uh, called Rev Track, uh, which is like, I think a little bit more expensive and a little bit newer, but yeah, ultimately you wanna be like keeping a pulse on like, is this effort worth it?

[00:57:08] Tintin: Are we getting a return? Checking how the videos are performing, not obsessing over YouTube studio and the analytics you get in there ’cause you can waste hours. So

[00:57:14] you’re

[00:57:14] Nathan: saying this is at a higher level.

[00:57:16] Tintin: Is it a higher level? Are we actually generating a return?

[00:57:18] Nathan: Is are, are these thumbnails actually working?

[00:57:21] Nathan: Like look at it a monthly view

[00:57:22] Tintin: Yeah.

[00:57:23] Nathan: Is all

[00:57:24] Tintin: Yeah. And like assessing the like team member’s performance, all this kind of stuff. Mm-hmm. Um, but like ultimately like, yeah. Are we,

[00:57:30] Nathan: would you put this on the schedule as well?

[00:57:33] Tintin: Yes. Actually that’s a very good question. I think, um, I would probably set aside like.

[00:57:39] Tintin: An intentional like hour month or something like that. Okay. To, uh, to look into, um, to look into performance review. I love that. Um, so just thinking about what could be improved, uh, maybe it’s a conversation with your YouTube producer, if you’ve got one. It’s a meeting with them. It’s just like, look back at everything we’re doing.

[00:57:58] Nathan: How is the business performing?

[00:57:59] Tintin: How is the business performing,

[00:58:00] Nathan: basically all this time and money that we’re putting in? Is it paying

[00:58:02] Tintin: off? Yeah. I like that. And Ali would often ask me for like a kind of, um, well, I would do monthly reports actually. Mm-hmm. Is what I would, I would do as YouTube producer. I would kind of, uh, be like, this is how many views we got.

[00:58:12] Tintin: This is how many leads we got. Mm-hmm. This is the best performing videos, the worst performing videos. And this is how many clicks we got to our links. How many, like, all this kind of stuff. Right. And so just like a wrap up of like, you know. Whether is,

[00:58:22] Nathan: is working,

[00:58:23] Tintin: weather’s working,

[00:58:23] Nathan: that also helps. Getting that from your YouTube producer helps you understand how well are they seeing the big picture.

[00:58:29] Tintin: Yeah. And

[00:58:29] Nathan: you’re like, oh, this is great. We’re getting more views. And you’re like, wait, we’re up by a hundred more views than last month.

[00:58:34] Tintin: Like, or we’re getting tons

[00:58:36] Nathan: of

[00:58:36] Tintin: views, but like we’re not gonna get any sales. Like, and so that’s why tracking is like part of the flywheel. May, maybe we can have time for that or not, but like the flywheel of making videos, sending people to your offers early leave magnets, and then kind of making sales and, and stuff like, so it, depending on which videos perform well actually drive sales.

[00:58:54] Tintin: You can obviously wanna make more of those videos and less of the videos that, that don’t drive sales. So that’s a very key piece that actually we should have come to, uh, in, in, in that kind of step seven.

[00:59:04] Nathan: So that, that would be coming back to the admin analytics is tying it back.

[00:59:09] Tintin: Yeah.

[00:59:09] Nathan: Just under underlying analytics here.

[00:59:10] Nathan: ’cause they’re tying it back to the performance.

[00:59:12] Tintin: Yeah.

[00:59:13] Nathan: Not just of that video, but of our broader business

[00:59:16] Tintin: metrics. Yeah, exactly. Understanding which videos. Actually move the business forwards. And which videos are just like getting views, but not

[00:59:22] Nathan: vanity

[00:59:23] Tintin: generating leads or Yeah, exactly. Vanity metrics.

[00:59:25] Nathan: That sounds good.

[00:59:26] Tintin: Um, yeah,

[00:59:26] Nathan: let’s step into what not to do. ’cause I think the tendency for a lot of entrepreneurs, creators, all of that is to be like, I can do it all. I can learn all these skills. Yeah, I can dive right in. What’s number one on your list of what you should not do?

[00:59:37] Tintin: Number one is, uh, for every entrepreneur’s editing.

[00:59:40] Tintin: Okay. You don’t need to be doing the video editing. So it’s a simple one. Like it’s just worth being on the list because lemme

[00:59:45] Nathan: write that down. Oh yeah. In orange of the like, don’t do this.

[00:59:48] Tintin: And just to expand on that slightly, you obviously shouldn’t be reviewing the edits as well. In an ideal world, you can obviously do that if you have the time.

[00:59:56] Tintin: But if you have a YouTube producer, they should be able to do that. If you don’t have a YouTube producer, then obviously it’s gonna be you. But then the next one is, uh, titles and thumbnails.

[01:00:04] Nathan: Okay.

[01:00:04] Tintin: Titles are obviously. A simpler skill and like you can see how good the titles are so you can contribute to them.

[01:00:11] Tintin: But then thumbnails are the big one that you definitely don’t need to be doing, and uh, you don’t really need to have like a skill set in it either. It’s helpful if you understand like, you know, what makes people click. Mm-hmm. But it’s not something you to be worrying about if you’ve got a good thumbnail designer and a good YouTube producer.

[01:00:26] Tintin: If you don’t, you do wanna know if the ortho thumb designer is doing a good job or not. Then the next one on here, number three, is just admin. So kind of uploading files, uh, uploading stuff to YouTube, doing the video descriptions, um, being

[01:00:40] Nathan: in the weeds on YouTube studio

[01:00:41] Tintin: being in the weed. You don’t need to be doing that.

[01:00:43] Tintin: Um, either. It can be your editor, it can be your designer, it can be your YouTube producer. It could even be you have a personal assistant who just helps you with like a bunch of other things and they just do all the

[01:00:51] Nathan: mm-hmm. The

[01:00:51] Tintin: like. Setting up the links you are working with psychometrics, all this like admin based stuff.

[01:00:56] Tintin: You don’t need to be doing it. You definitely should be.

[01:00:58] Nathan: You actively should not be doing

[01:01:00] Tintin: it. Actively should not be doing it because it just takes you out of your sort of, you know, your creative headspace as as an entrepreneur in general. And it’s just like low leverage work. Mm-hmm. So someone in the team can be doing it.

[01:01:11] Tintin: Okay. And then the next one, I know we’ve touched on this already, but it was reviewing edits, so just wanna kinda reiterate that point. It’s not an essential thing for you to be doing. Now obviously your videos are very, very important. This is the whole thing. It’s like. The videos are the actual thing that’s driving the whole system forwards.

[01:01:29] Tintin: Um, but you can watch your videos, right. You know, analyze them and intentionally review them in the performance meeting or whenever it is. But you don’t actually need to be like reviewing the edits at some point if you have a YouTube producer. So in this system, yeah. If you don’t, obviously it makes sense to, you’re trying to get

[01:01:45] Nathan: everyone to operate at a higher level, like stay at this higher altitude, focus on the performance, the, the, the quality of the business, you know, what’s the impact’s having there, the quality of your performance when you’re recording on screen, like what I hear you saying is I would far rather have a content creator or a founder spend the time.

[01:02:05] Nathan: Looking back at like, okay, how can I have a better unscreen presence?

[01:02:09] Tintin: Yeah.

[01:02:10] Nathan: Then well hold on. That exact cut isn’t what I would make Exactly. Why did you exactly run it for three seconds there instead of five, you know?

[01:02:16] Tintin: Yeah. And being like, oh, there’s a spelling error in that text, or like that kind of stuff because that’s, that’s, that’s a

[01:02:20] Nathan: flaw in the system.

[01:02:21] Tintin: Yeah.

[01:02:21] Nathan: Don’t,

[01:02:22] Tintin: yeah.

[01:02:22] Nathan: Don’t try to be a, a cog in the

[01:02:24] Tintin: machine. Yeah. Your and your editor should be good enough that like, there aren’t many mistakes. So you are working to, to that point where you have an editing guideline document where the editor just like, he knows what they’re doing and they know what they’re doing and when, when they send you the video, if you don’t have a YouTube producer and you are reviewing the edit, you’re just like, nice.

[01:02:39] Tintin: Yeah. Looks good. Um, and you know, it’s not taking up a ton of your time, but in general. Yeah, if, if you, you wanna avoid these kind of like lower leverage

[01:02:50] Nathan: mm-hmm.

[01:02:50] Tintin: Tasks. And then the final one here was, uh, expecting results too soon. So it’s obviously less like a weekly task that you’re gonna be having on your schedule.

[01:03:00] Tintin: Yep. Which, just a kind of mindset point. It takes time for YouTube channels to kinda get working and sometimes it doesn’t. You know, there’s, there’s obviously all of this is just like, there’s so much context to apply to your own business and, and channel stuff. Sometimes YouTube channels can take off very quickly.

[01:03:14] Tintin: Uh, if you get the right team behind it, you have the right strategy, all this kind of stuff. But a good mindset to have is like, okay, I’m gonna take YouTube seriously. I’m gonna commit to a filming days and a posting schedule of once a week or, um, or every two weeks. That was actually something we missed was how often should I post?

[01:03:29] Nathan: Yeah.

[01:03:30] Tintin: Um, uh, which is like ultimately once a week is like just the staple.

[01:03:35] Nathan: That’ll work just fine.

[01:03:36] Tintin: Um, I wouldn’t go less than once every two weeks because you’re just not making enough content to, to grow. And if you want to be gold standard or you wanna like push, then twice a week is gonna be, uh, like a reasonable maximum.

[01:03:50] Tintin: Going beyond twice, twice a week is just like the content quality starts to dip. Your audience can’t keep up and it’s just the returns aren’t there. So that’s um, uh,

[01:04:00] Nathan: so we’re talking about expecting quick results. Yes. So what time period am I allowed to take a step back? I implement the system. When can I take a step back and be like, is this working?

[01:04:11] Nathan: Like, and start to see based on results.

[01:04:13] Tintin: Yeah. I think three to six months is like,

[01:04:16] Nathan: okay. The first time they, you were line

[01:04:17] Tintin: is, yeah. I think within three months you are like, we’re just, I’m just trying to make videos and get the system kind of going here, whether it is with the team or without one. Whether it’s just you or you’ve got a little bit of help, you’re just like, I’m just finding my feet.

[01:04:28] Tintin: I’m, I’m taking this seriously. I’ve got my filming days scheduled in. Right. And I’m putting, and all the inputs are in place for at least three months. Yep. Because that’s that saying, you know, results, were a lagging indicator of, of inputs. We wanna, we wanna have the inputs for like, at least three months.

[01:04:43] Nathan: Yep.

[01:04:43] Tintin: Six months would be a better frame.

[01:04:46] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[01:04:46] Tintin: Even better than that would be like, I’m doing this for, you know, 2, 3, 4 years

[01:04:50] Nathan: no matter what.

[01:04:50] Tintin: Or just like for the long term, you know,

[01:04:51] Nathan: I’ll, I’ll try to be 1% better

[01:04:53] Tintin: and I’m just gonna keep going. Yeah. So yeah, there is, there is that mindset as well. And um, yeah, it’s very tempting to start YouTube putting lots of effort, realize how draining filming is planning content, like how intense this stuff can be.

[01:05:07] Tintin: And then just be like, I’m not seeing any results after two months and I’m gonna give up because I’m not enjoying it. And obviously that’s a totally fair business decision, but it can take time to

[01:05:16] Nathan: get

[01:05:16] Tintin: results.

[01:05:17] Nathan: So I’ve talked to literally thousands of creators

[01:05:20] Tintin: Yeah.

[01:05:21] Nathan: In my, the last 13 to 15 years that I’ve been in this business.

[01:05:26] Nathan: Yeah. And I have never met a single creator who showed up every single day

[01:05:30] Tintin: Yeah.

[01:05:30] Nathan: For at least 30 minutes or an hour.

[01:05:33] Tintin: Yeah.

[01:05:33] Nathan: Like actively tried to get better.

[01:05:35] Tintin: Yeah.

[01:05:36] Nathan: And did that for multiple years.

[01:05:37] Tintin: Yeah.

[01:05:37] Nathan: And was not like substantially successful. Like six figure to seven figure creators.

[01:05:42] Tintin: Exactly.

[01:05:43] Nathan: I’ve met tons and tons of creators who tried it for two weeks.

[01:05:48] Nathan: Two months, yeah. That sort of thing. And died out and never found success.

[01:05:51] Tintin: Yeah.

[01:05:51] Nathan: But I have never met the person who’s like, I was grinding it out. I did all of the things.

[01:05:56] Tintin: Yeah.

[01:05:57] Nathan: And I learned continually. Yeah. And I didn’t find success. I,

[01:06:00] Tintin: yeah.

[01:06:00] Nathan: I just, I’ve never met that person.

[01:06:02] Tintin: And they, yeah, exactly. So. You can expect results if you put in the, if you put in the work.

[01:06:07] Nathan: Yeah. But set that timeframe around.

[01:06:09] Tintin: Yeah.

[01:06:09] Nathan: Um, in three to six months, I’m looking at how well is my system, my inputs? Am I checking all these boxes? I’ve been doing all that.

[01:06:16] Tintin: Yeah.

[01:06:16] Nathan: And then six plus months is when I’m allowed to start to see, okay, are there results?

[01:06:21] Tintin: Yeah.

[01:06:22] Nathan: Like, are, are we improving in results based on the inputs that we have?

[01:06:25] Tintin: Exactly. Yeah. And we drive actually driving sales to our business, which is what this is all about. We’re getting the return that we, we were hoping for when we started to take this really seriously. And an interesting channel who’s actually gone through a very kind of. Uh, gone through this, this shift, um, very recently there’s a woman called, uh, Joanna V or y I’m, she sure say her name, but she has a channel about copywriting.

[01:06:46] Nathan: Yeah.

[01:06:47] Tintin: Have you, do you know her?

[01:06:47] Nathan: She’s a friend of mine from like 10 years ago.

[01:06:49] Tintin: Oh, okay. Okay. Yeah. So have you seen her YouTube channel?

[01:06:51] Nathan: I have not. We’ve, we used to speak at the same conferences and all of that, but I, I haven’t seen her like

[01:06:56] Tintin: rising

[01:06:56] Nathan: YouTube.

[01:06:57] Tintin: I don’t really know much about her. I just have, I’ve just, like her, one of her videos popped up on my feed and I was like, looked at her channel.

[01:07:01] Tintin: I was like, whoa, this is super interesting. So she, for a couple years on her channel was just posting like two minute long, three minute long videos, like clips of stuff or just like little talking head bits. The titles were really, uh, just like descriptive and boring.

[01:07:17] Nathan: Yep.

[01:07:17] Tintin: And they just weren’t following like basic title principles.

[01:07:20] Tintin: The thumbnails were like really amateur, but they’d been design in Canva without any kind of thought in them. Not that canva’s actually a bad, uh Right. A bad thumbnail tool. Um, but she was making these like kind of basic mistakes. Then you can see the video where she clearly. Got some help.

[01:07:35] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[01:07:36] Tintin: She started to understand the platform.

[01:07:37] Tintin: She started to put in some, like, regular filming sessions. She started to implement this system and uh, the first video that she did, uh, kind of with her like new approach to YouTube has got over 200,000 views overnight. So she implemented the system and it just went, like it, her lead sky skyrocket, skyrocketed, her business skyrocketed, and she has got like a bunch of unqualified leads coming through.

[01:07:58] Tintin: ’cause she was getting so many views, but, uh, her business is also like right. Flourishing as a result. And so she did, like, it doesn’t have to be complicated, you know, it, it can feel super overwhelming, especially looking at this board right now. But, um, you know, ultimately it’s, it doesn’t, it’s the more seriously you take yourself, more effort you put in right.

[01:08:17] Tintin: For the longer timeframe and just 1% improvements. Like, you’re gonna get the results that you’re looking for eventually.

[01:08:23] Nathan: Yep. I love that. Okay. I wanna ask you a couple rapid fire questions and then I wanna recap this thing.

[01:08:28] Tintin: Yeah.

[01:08:28] Nathan: And, uh, let people know where they can find you and all of that.

[01:08:31] Tintin: Oh yeah.

[01:08:31] Nathan: So first rapid fire question.

[01:08:33] Nathan: How much time as the founder, let’s say I hire. Okay. Yeah. Hire this team and all of that.

[01:08:38] Tintin: Yeah.

[01:08:39] Nathan: What is the amount of time I should expect to spend per week to bring this to life?

[01:08:43] Tintin: Cool. Uh, I think per week you should expect like a day. Okay. I think of your, of your working week. Okay. Around that at least is gonna go towards growing the YouTube channel.

[01:08:54] Tintin: You

[01:08:54] Nathan: think eight hours a week I could get this done.

[01:08:57] Tintin: Yeah. Eight hours a week is gonna be, uh, kind of, at least probably what you’re gonna need to, to do to implement this. It might to start with take up like two days a week of your time. You’re getting into three days a week, then you’re probably spending too much time.

[01:09:08] Nathan: Something’s wrong with your system.

[01:09:09] Tintin: Yeah. I mean, maybe it’s to start with you, it is like a bit heavy. Mm-hmm. And it, and, and, uh, hard and you’re trying to figure everything out. But ultimately it doesn’t have to be two full days as well. It can be like mornings or, you know Yeah. Different blocks here and there, like as we’ve got, but um, yeah, one to one to two days.

[01:09:23] Tintin: Uh, when I was working with Ali, he had one filming day per week, and then these two ideation and scripting meetings mm-hmm. Which were like an hour each, let’s say. So it was kind of amounted to like a day and a half.

[01:09:33] Nathan: Okay.

[01:09:34] Tintin: Uh, per week. So,

[01:09:36] Nathan: yeah. But he’s also. At the top of YouTube, you know,

[01:09:40] Tintin: he’s also

[01:09:40] Nathan: someone who’s running a full-time business.

[01:09:42] Tintin: Yeah.

[01:09:43] Nathan: Uh, could be doing it

[01:09:44] Tintin: in,

[01:09:44] Nathan: in less time. Yeah. But it’s important to call out. Like that is a meaningful commitment.

[01:09:47] Tintin: It’s a meaningful commitment as we, but as we discussed before mm-hmm. The episode, you can set the constraint.

[01:09:52] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[01:09:53] Tintin: I don’t want this to take more than a morning a week. Right. And that’s an interesting kind of thought experiment.

[01:09:57] Tintin: It’s like, okay, if I had to do YouTube in a really fun, light way that was gonna energize me in a morning a week, or maybe even like two hours a week, what would that look like? You’re gonna go through all these steps kind of regardless ’cause of just how you make a YouTube video. Right. And whether it’s you’re spending five minutes on one of them, you’re gonna be doing them.

[01:10:14] Tintin: Uh, but that’s also an interesting thought experiment. It’s like, okay, I don’t wanna spend eight hours a week, but I’m kind of interested if I spend, you know, two hours a week, what does that look like?

[01:10:21] Nathan: Right.

[01:10:21] Tintin: And uh.

[01:10:23] Nathan: That was gonna be my next question is like, what constraints could you put on it? And one of my favorite questions to ask is what would have to be true?

[01:10:29] Tintin: Yeah.

[01:10:30] Nathan: And so you say like, what would’ve to be true for me to, to hit 10,000 subscribers on YouTube from zero

[01:10:35] Tintin: Yeah.

[01:10:35] Nathan: In 12 months.

[01:10:36] Tintin: Yeah.

[01:10:37] Nathan: With only three hours a week at my time. And you could map it out and you’re like, well, I have to, you know, spend more money than time, you know?

[01:10:44] Tintin: Exactly. Just play with the pieces.

[01:10:45] Tintin: Yeah. Because it’s a, it’s a production system. It’s just like, okay, this here, this there. Like just moving it around. I think that’s an awesome question. Yeah. And that is the one that people should be asking is like, what outcome do I want? And what would have to be true to get the outcome?

[01:10:56] Nathan: Hmm. Okay. Final question of everybody that you hire.

[01:11:01] Tintin: Yeah.

[01:11:01] Nathan: What is the like highest leverage role that you bring in?

[01:11:05] Tintin: I think the best way to answer that is to think about, just look at the, the, the production system here. These first four steps

[01:11:12] Nathan: mm-hmm.

[01:11:12] Tintin: Are really where your, your gains are to be had. It’s like the 80 20, this is leverage. Yeah. This is the leverage.

[01:11:17] Tintin: And that’s, that comes before filming. So the 80 20 of YouTube is all in like the preparation. So what videos are we actually choosing to make? What, uh, what titles and thumbnails in are we gonna put on them? And then what is gonna be in the content

[01:11:31] Nathan: right

[01:11:31] Tintin: before you can get to filming. So that’s where the 80 20 is.

[01:11:34] Tintin: And so,

[01:11:34] Nathan: whereas most people do the reverse.

[01:11:36] Tintin: Yeah.

[01:11:37] Nathan: They’re like obsessed. They spend all their time filming and then tons of time editing.

[01:11:41] Tintin: Yeah.

[01:11:41] Nathan: And then they’re like. On the analytics and all of that. Yeah. And you’re like, well, the analytics aren’t good because your ideation, you’re positioning

[01:11:47] Tintin: Yeah.

[01:11:47] Nathan: Your thumbnail.

[01:11:48] Nathan: Those were all not

[01:11:49] Tintin: good. Exactly. There’s, there’s a channel I love by a friend of mine called, uh, Lewis, who has a channel called Mule of Knowledge and 600,000 subscribers or something. He teaches like this on a whiteboard. His videos are like 15, 20 minutes, no editing, no cuts, like, kind of like a Z. But he, uh, spent so much time thinking about like, how do I wanna explain these, these concepts?

[01:12:07] Tintin: He, he’s talking about, um, uh, kind of like, um, psychology mm-hmm. Mindset, being a social person dealing with social anxiety. And he like, uh, it’s all just on a whiteboard, like you’re in a classroom with him. Right. There’s no editing, but his camera presence is just so good that he doesn’t really need it, but all of his returns are in this, in this like writing and planning and ideation phase and not in the, like, in the editing and, and stuff like that.

[01:12:31] Tintin: So

[01:12:31] Nathan: that’s something else that has stood out to me about Dan Martel. Yeah. So he’s been a friend of mine for, I don’t know, 10 plus years now. Yeah. And I once went and spoke at his mastermind. Yeah. For like, um, his SaaS founders group, right? So it’s the top people in his group, maybe 25, 30 people there. And I spoke about a concept and shared it all and he jumps up and he is like, you know what you need?

[01:12:50] Nathan: You need a diagram? Yeah. And he’s like, put it in a triangle. Here’s these. Yeah. And he had that ability, like your friend to say, I. Let me take this complicated idea. Yeah. That, you know, I talked about for like six minutes or so.

[01:13:01] Tintin: Yeah.

[01:13:01] Nathan: And then he like heard that, distilled it down. Yeah. Put it in his di a neat diagram that everyone could walk away with and Dan Martel talking more.

[01:13:08] Nathan: A few of these people who are

[01:13:09] Tintin: Yeah.

[01:13:10] Nathan: Really influential. Yeah. Have gotten very, very good at that.

[01:13:12] Tintin: Yeah.

[01:13:13] Nathan: And like that’s in the 80 20.

[01:13:14] Tintin: Exactly. Yeah. I’ve started to watch Taki Moore’s videos as well. Oh, he’s so good. I don’t quite have the problems that he’s like talking about in terms of like, you know, eight figure entrepreneurs.

[01:13:21] Tintin: But, um, it’s, a lot of it is just in, in these first four steps, isn’t it? Like he’s very good on camera. He’s not really editing the videos, he’s just, you know, so he, he’s definitely thinking about these things even though it looks simple. Yeah. On camera when you’re watching.

[01:13:33] Nathan: I love that. Okay, so we’ve got a bunch of things here.

[01:13:36] Nathan: What I love about this overall is you’ve mapped out the entire system, given people a playbook that they can clone directly into their business and say, okay, if I’m willing to put in this level of commitment, you know, the money that we’ve outlined, like

[01:13:48] Tintin: yeah.

[01:13:48] Nathan: All of the steps are here. Um, I think this is fantastic.

[01:13:52] Nathan: Now people want more help going through this process. Right. And they’re saying, okay, this is good.

[01:13:57] Tintin: Yeah.

[01:13:57] Nathan: You know, an hour and whatever, hour and 15 minutes you gave me the breakdown. Um, but talk for a second about like one where people can find you and your content. Yeah. And then two, the program that you run to help people with this.

[01:14:08] Nathan: Exactly.

[01:14:08] Tintin: Yeah. So what I do is, uh, actually I help people who have built audiences on YouTube already. So YouTubers first and help them build businesses kind of off the back of it. Oh, smart. A bit more of the monetization side. Yep. And that is a program called the hundred K YouTuber. Mm-hmm. Or a hundred thousand dollars YouTuber.

[01:14:23] Tintin: It’s just like a fun name. And, uh, so you can find that at a hundred k yt.com is the, is the URL. Um, but my YouTube channel is Tintin Smith. And then, uh, so yeah, I’m, I can definitely help people kind of, um. Like, I can coach people to, to implement their systems kind of through that program if they’re the right fit.

[01:14:42] Tintin: But if you want this actually like done for you, there are people who do just come along and like, we will take all of this off your hands. Except for like filming and,

[01:14:49] Nathan: yeah.

[01:14:49] Tintin: And, and, and a bit of scripting and stuff like that. A friend of mine staff, uh, I dunno if you’ve come across him, but he, he’s not my business partner.

[01:14:55] Tintin: He’s just like a best mate and I’m gonna give him a plug ’cause he uh, he has a done for you YouTube agency.

[01:15:00] Yeah.

[01:15:01] Tintin: And it’s like one of the best in the space. And uh, you can just go to his LinkedIn, like Safwan Mohammed and book a call there with, with SAF if you want like a done for you version. Yeah.

[01:15:09] Tintin: Which is which I don’t offer. So I think it makes sense to chat. I

[01:15:12] Nathan: love that. Well, everyone should go search on YouTube. Just Tintin Smith.

[01:15:15] Tintin: Tintin Smith. Yeah.

[01:15:15] Nathan: Go find you there. And then for every, anyone who’s watching who is obsessed with YouTube maybe already has an audience Yeah. Is like, well hold on.

[01:15:22] Nathan: You’re talking about numbers that are far beyond. Uh, you know, the revenue per Yeah. Video that I’m getting then that’s where your program comes in. Exactly. You can say, Hey, let me help you build the business.

[01:15:32] Tintin: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And I have a weekly newsletter, which I send on Kit, obviously as well. Thank very much.

[01:15:37] Tintin: So, uh, we can put that in the, the link in the description or something that as well, in case people want to kind of read my, my weekly updates on, on YouTube and building one of these businesses and stuff like that. Perfect.

[01:15:46] Nathan: Well, thanks so much for coming on.

[01:15:47] Tintin: Thank you very much, Nathan. I really enjoyed it.

[01:15:49] Nathan: If you’re thinking about how to structure the right offer for your YouTube audience, episode 87 with Jay Clouse is the next one to watch. Jay breaks down why courses are losing ground and what high ticket offer structures are actually gonna work long term. Specifically for creators who already have an audience coming in from YouTube, like the video.

[01:16:05] Nathan: If you enjoyed it, hit subscribe on YouTube or wherever you’re listening, and I’ll see you next week.

[00:00:00] Nathan: Were you at WDS in 2012?

[00:00:01] Chase: I never went to A WDS, but I was always doing like the, like the, you were always the tour guide for like the cool kids. I guess. I didn’t know they were the cool kids even. It was just, it’s like

[00:00:11] Nathan: just the people who showed up.

[00:00:12] Chase: I was just, oh, you gotta come to this pizza place with me.

[00:00:14] Nathan: Yeah. You know, because how You were living in Portland then?

[00:00:16] Chase: I was living in Portland.

[00:00:17] Nathan: Okay. I showed up. WDS 2012 knew no one.

[00:00:20] Chase: Mm-hmm.

[00:00:21] Nathan: Actually, the very first event that I went to was the Think Traffic meetup.

[00:00:26] Chase: Okay.

[00:00:27] Nathan: Because the first two people that I met at WDS were James Clear. Mm-hmm. And Caleb Wick.

[00:00:32] Chase: Yeah.

[00:00:33] Nathan: And I registered, went over, like, talked to two tall Baldman and they were like, you seem friendly, I guess. I don’t know. Perfect. And so I met them and was like talking, and then Caleb’s like, well, I’m headed to the think traffic thing. Do you wanna, you wanna come? And I was like, sure.

[00:00:47] Chase: Right

[00:00:47] Nathan: on. And so then I met Corbett and Steve Cam and all these people who

[00:00:50] Chase: Yeah.

[00:00:51] Nathan: Were like characters in that space. But then it was probably the next year that we met. Maybe the next year, I would imagine.

[00:00:57] Chase: Yeah.

[00:00:58] Nathan: I feel like you came onto the scene and were just immediately like connecting with everybody, designing everyone’s websites. Mm. That was the thing. And like as a designer, I was like, who is this guy?

[00:01:09] Nathan: Stuff is really, really good. So I’m gonna start by talking about the kinda the skillset of a designer.

[00:01:15] Chase: Mm.

[00:01:16] Nathan: Because you’re like this creator, every man. Like you just take on all the pro, like all the projects and you do all the things. But I first noticed you for the design element.

[00:01:25] Chase: Yeah.

[00:01:26] Nathan: Like, were you professionally trained as a designer?

[00:01:28] Nathan: Like how did that No,

[00:01:29] Chase: I read a lot of websites, you know, I read a lot of blogs and stuff, but No, uh, but I knew how to use computers. Uhhuh. I knew how to use Photoshop from like a, a pirated version back in college when I needed to make band posters. So I knew how to use the computers and uh, and then I had like a sense of, you know, it’d be cool if it was like this.

[00:01:49] Chase: Then I figured, figured it out from there.

[00:01:51] Nathan: I feel like musicians into content creators is like a underused path.

[00:01:57] Chase: Yeah.

[00:01:58] Nathan: Like what are the skill sets from music that Yeah. You’ve brought in. Because I feel like you, that’s a space where you have to do everything. You have to figure it out. You

[00:02:05] Chase: have to,

[00:02:06] Nathan: yeah.

[00:02:06] Nathan: And you like the hard skills with the, the, uh, you know, mixing and editing. Yeah. Like all this carries over to video. Like what’s the

[00:02:14] direction

[00:02:14] Chase: there? Yeah. So I mean, I’d say the through line is taste point of view. Perspective, like intention.

[00:02:21] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:02:21] Chase: Right. It’s like, oh, this is, you know, as a musician, I never sat down and go like, okay, I want like a, like a four 40 beats per minute love song.

[00:02:29] Chase: Something that has, like, I, a lot of producers now, like if I was professional, I’d probably be thinking like that. Mm-hmm. But I was always like, you know, oh man, I miss, or, or whatever. Like, fuck you do. Like, just like,

[00:02:42] Nathan: like what, what do I feel and how do I

[00:02:44] Chase: express

[00:02:44] Nathan: that feeling? Yes.

[00:02:45] Chase: I was in the hardcore scene in the Bay Area, so there was like, um, and in the, like the evangelical, like the developing evangelical worship scene, there was a premium on like the rawest emotion actually.

[00:02:58] Chase: Okay. Not only that, was that like moving and touching. It just, it felt cool, like it looked cool and I wanted to be like that. Mm-hmm. So there was, um, there was an exploration of feeling on purpose, which requires a. You to get out from like the hair, like a little bit to like actually be seen. Yeah. Right.

[00:03:19] Chase: So it’s this mix of like, look at me. Mm-hmm. I’m gonna do something that’s real at you and what happens. That’s a very tender balance, trying to do that. ’cause what happens is you start doing, you start wanting to do the thing that they wanna see mm-hmm. More than the thing that you want, or you, you believe that they’re not gonna want the thing that you want that, that you’re doing.

[00:03:42] Chase: Mm-hmm. So you get more insular with it. Right. Uh, those are at least two paths that you can take. Right. But to be a creator, you’re like open, openhearted and open. Mm-hmm. Authentic. And like, it’s okay, you can look at me without getting to like, fucking look at me, dude. Yeah. Because you can, you can feel, you can feel it.

[00:04:03] Chase: Almost people, there’s

[00:04:03] Nathan: a line there and once you cross it, someone’s like, oh, you’re just show boating. You’re just yes in it for the attention or whatever else. This is no longer authentic,

[00:04:10] Chase: ironically. Like ironically for me, I was really good at both of those.

[00:04:15] Nathan: Okay.

[00:04:15] Chase: Some people are like, really think I’m a douche bag.

[00:04:20] Chase: Anybody who spends time with me is like, oh my God, he is not a douche bag.

[00:04:23] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:04:23] Chase: You know? Um, and I’m okay with them thinking I’m a douche bag.

[00:04:27] Nathan: My favorite thing is when people talk about. Someone who has like an online persona.

[00:04:32] Chase: Mm-hmm.

[00:04:32] Nathan: And then they talk about hanging out with him in person. And they use the word actually.

[00:04:36] Chase: Yeah.

[00:04:37] Nathan: So it’s like, like Nick Huber Uhhuh. Right. Someone’s like, you’re friends with Nick Huber, you know, or something. Or I’ll hear someone say, yeah, I met Nick Huber at a conference and I actually really like him. You are like the word actually know, like, I hung out with chase ribs and I actually really like it.

[00:04:51] Nathan: Totally. You know, I say, but actually it’s like this disconnect between how they come across in person,

[00:04:57] Chase: right? Yeah.

[00:04:57] Nathan: Or like, and or like the, the human to human connection that comes through versus

[00:05:02] Chase: Yeah. Persona. ’cause that’s, it’s an, it’s like, it’s something about our, like, something I believe is like our, you know, the way that the internet work

[00:05:10] mm-hmm.

[00:05:10] Chase: Is work, the way that the internet works is through nervous systems.

[00:05:14] Nathan: Okay.

[00:05:14] Chase: You know, this is what, like, you’re designing a website from your billion year old year old nervous system. To create an experience in someone else’s billion year old nervous system on the other side of a screen. It’s like ba, you’re like, like look on two sides of a window.

[00:05:29] Chase: Mm-hmm. Right. And the reality of the, of, of how this nervous system, in fact, like you walk by someone in the grocery store, this is all online and, and making assumptions and judgements and this, that and the other, just as much as on the internet and just as much as, uh, as in the show and in the game and and mm-hmm.

[00:05:50] Chase: And in the, the market so to speak. You know? So like the nervous system really matters in business stuff is something that has taken me a long time to, to think about. But even from the beginning, that’s why I oriented towards the feeling when I was designing websites. It was like, I just wanted it to feel cool.

[00:06:10] Chase: I just wanted to be fucking interesting. Right. Pardon my friend. I just wanted to be like, just like, hey. Check this out. And, and every time I designed someone’s website, I would do it in Photoshop and I would, and I couldn’t use Laura Ssom. Mm-hmm. I can’t be like, well, is headlights gonna go here? Or blah, blah, you know,

[00:06:25] Nathan: no er text,

[00:06:26] Chase: I would, I would write it like, here’s what, how, here’s what I would do.

[00:06:30] Chase: And every single time they used my copy throughout. Right. So that’s where I started to realize,

[00:06:34] Nathan: yeah. Many of them were writers.

[00:06:35] Chase: Yeah. And

[00:06:36] Nathan: they’re,

[00:06:36] Chase: all of them were writers. Yeah. And that’s where I realized, like, okay, I’ve got some copywriting. Right. And that came from the, like, you know, I was trained as a pastor.

[00:06:44] Chase: I’m like a word, I’m a poet. I’m, I like the words. Mm-hmm. I like the, the depth of things. And that’s like, you know, you’re studying scripture, that’s words. Right. It’s not pictures. You know, it’s, it’s interesting that, like, that ended up pulling through into a, a marketing sort of point of view. Another thing that’s always been challenging for me is like, is we are marketing on the web.

[00:07:06] Chase: Mm-hmm. We’re asking you to pay attention to a thing. And that took a long time. It’s still sort of challenge, like I’m doing a men’s retreat this this weekend and my girlfriend’s like, you need to make a video where you just say, come to my men’s retreat. I’m always like,

[00:07:21] Nathan: like be as direct as

[00:07:22] Chase: possible.

[00:07:22] Chase: Yeah. As direct as PO and I, and it’s still a little bit of a challenge to me, but that’s what we’re doing. We’re honestly, we’re honestly asking for you to pay attention to this thing, but we’re smuggling it, it in. Mm-hmm. Also where it’s like, Hey, have you ever wondered why this, that, and the other is so important?

[00:07:37] Chase: Like, I have Chase, I help creators deal with blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Here’s the, and then, you know, you we’re like, we’ve got some nugget. We’re trying to smuggle in. You can’t just like say, here’s the point, right? You have to like juice it up a bit. And then the reason why you want them to pay attention to that actually is so they’ll work with you or buy your product or this, that and the other.

[00:07:57] Chase: It’s another phase of the creators is like, we just want people to pay attention. And then you get some attention and you’re like, oh, wait, I’m broke. Like,

[00:08:05] Nathan: okay, so taste.

[00:08:06] Chase: Yeah.

[00:08:06] Nathan: I feel like there’s so many things that are out, like learnable. If you said, Nathan, I need you to sit down and learn how to build a house, I’d be like, no problem.

[00:08:14] Chase: Yeah,

[00:08:15] Nathan: I can follow, you know, I can, I can do all this. Learn to code.

[00:08:17] Chase: Yeah.

[00:08:18] Nathan: Learn Photoshop, learn all these skill sets. Not a problem. You said, Hey, I need you to learn how to have good taste. Yeah,

[00:08:23] Chase: yeah.

[00:08:23] Nathan: When I’d be like, I don’t have good taste. You know,

[00:08:26] Chase: like I,

[00:08:27] Nathan: I take it personally in some way, but there’s all these creators that we talk to or or, uh, admire their work and they’re like, oh man, they just have taste or musicians, that sort of thing.

[00:08:36] Nathan: How do you go about developing taste?

[00:08:39] Chase: Okay, first answer is that I glass quote. Do you know the one I’m talking about?

[00:08:43] Nathan: Uh, tell me I, if

[00:08:45] Chase: you can. It’s like there’s, there’s, it’s, it’s fascinating to me that there’s still a few things from the early days of the internet mm-hmm. That are just as relevant.

[00:08:53] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:08:54] Chase: You know, like Gary V at Web 2.0 conference or whatever it is. Like, you could, you could watch that today and it was like 15, 20 years ago. It’s just as relevant.

[00:09:03] Nathan: Right.

[00:09:03] Chase: This IRA glass quote of him talking about taste. When you first start making things, it’s disappointing because your taste is higher than your capabilities.

[00:09:11] Chase: Mm-hmm. But as you keep going, your, like, your taste is up here and your capabilities are down here as you make things. Right. This is what my answer is. As you make things,

[00:09:22] Nathan: you build, taste,

[00:09:22] Chase: you as you become the man in the arena.

[00:09:25] Mm-hmm.

[00:09:25] Chase: Right. As you’re actually not like going like, I would do that differently, or blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

[00:09:29] Chase: As you’re actually making things, that’s how it, that’s how it gets better. Mm-hmm. To make things and put them out. You have to confront a lot of psychological material that, let’s just put it that way. Yeah. You have to confront a lot, namely your fear of rejection. Right. Which is what, like wanted to take me out for forever and then I figured out how to do a personality that was like, I really don’t care.

[00:09:51] Chase: And then it’s like, you know, uh, it catches up with you over time. Yeah. But there is a way where you can honestly open-hearted step into creating and making things. And even though you’re afraid that you’re not gonna get the views, you’re gonna feel the rejection and all this other stuff. Like, that’s why we stay out of the game.

[00:10:09] Chase: Mm-hmm. That’s why we stay out. That’s also why we sabotage ourselves. All of this like tricky psychological material is very much at play in creator business. Right. Even though it sounds like I just make a blog or whatever. It’s like all of this is what I realize now and what I’ve helped some clients with is like, this is, you actually are, you are determined not to be seen.

[00:10:33] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:10:33] Chase: You like want to prove it to your, to yourself that you don’t want to, that you’re not good enough for it. We gotta work through some of that so that you can step out in ways where you can see the risk that’s take for you.

[00:10:46] Nathan: Right.

[00:10:46] Chase: You know?

[00:10:47] Nathan: Yeah. There, I’m thinking about what you’re saying about taste and the hourglass quote of you basically put in the reps.

[00:10:54] Chase: Yeah.

[00:10:54] Nathan: And you know, you, the frustrating part of creation is the gap between what you think you should be able to create. Yeah. What you want to create, what, what you have the skillset for. Something that helped me a lot is just directly copying other people’s work.

[00:11:05] Chase: Totally.

[00:11:06] Nathan: Like going into, when I was learning Photoshop.

[00:11:09] Nathan: I would pull up a website or a graphic designer or something else and say, I’m going to recreate this pixel. Perfect.

[00:11:15] Chase: Mm-hmm.

[00:11:15] Nathan: And to try to understand what are the techniques that you literally

[00:11:18] Chase: did that

[00:11:18] Nathan: Oh yeah.

[00:11:19] Chase: Oh, wow.

[00:11:19] Nathan: Because you would go through and I didn’t know that was a technique.

[00:11:22] Chase: Yeah.

[00:11:22] Nathan: Years later, um, I’ve heard like Sam Parr and other people talk about copy work, where they do that with, um, great writing.

[00:11:29] Chase: Mm.

[00:11:30] Nathan: Where they’ll actually pull up, you know, Ernest Hemingway or whoever they’re trying to and

[00:11:33] Chase: just start typing along

[00:11:34] Nathan: and, and actually hand write it.

[00:11:35] Chase: Yeah. Wow.

[00:11:36] Nathan: To get like the connection to your brain.

[00:11:38] Chase: Yeah.

[00:11:39] Nathan: And so there’s one aspect of that where if you don’t know what to make,

[00:11:42] Chase: yeah.

[00:11:42] Nathan: Go make something that’s an exact copy of someone else’s and, and you’re like, internalize those and build those skills.

[00:11:47] Chase: Lemme pause You there. Can you remember what you’re about to say?

[00:11:50] Nathan: Uhhuh?

[00:11:50] Chase: Because the time to copy something mm-hmm. And do that. Right. That is like sacred. Yeah. In this today’s day and age, the Nathan, the younger Nathan Barry going like, I’m gonna, I’m gonna actually just make this, I’m gonna fuck around with this and make this.

[00:12:09] Chase: That is, that’s the element that like, that’s how you build taste mm-hmm. Is have that time Yeah. Built in to try something. So specifically to copy something, but also just that time alone is like, I’m putting a pin in that for people to like mm-hmm. Double click this idea that you can, you gotta slow down enough

[00:12:25] Nathan: Right.

[00:12:25] Chase: To actually start copying someone. And I’m sitting here and so are you saying like, oh, I’m glad I did that. Like

[00:12:31] Nathan: Right.

[00:12:31] Chase: That’s valuable.

[00:12:32] Nathan: Yeah. You

[00:12:33] Chase: know.

[00:12:33] Nathan: Well, and so basically carving it, like first, the intention of saying, Hey, I want to develop taste.

[00:12:39] Chase: Mm.

[00:12:39] Nathan: And so then I’m going to see, okay, who’s, whose taste do I like?

[00:12:42] Nathan: Mm-hmm. Who am I going? Like, let me curate all of my inspiration sources. Mm-hmm. And it could be across a bunch of things, right. There might be. A YouTuber that you love there, you know, musicians, whoever else, right? Like some of the best storytellers are musicians. And so you pull from all these different sources and then you’re say, okay, now I’m going to, I have the intention.

[00:12:59] Nathan: I have the inspiration. Mm-hmm. And now I’m going to set aside the time Yeah. And protect that and say, okay, for an hour a day, two hours a day, I’m gonna learn this thing.

[00:13:08] Chase: Yeah. Well, I mean, think what’s so sacred about that is your interest is actually a, a an authentic development of your own voice and your own soul.

[00:13:16] Chase: Right. That’s what you’re interested in. Mm-hmm. We wanna be seen, we want, we wanna make the money like doing something that’s authentic to us. That would be killer. Yeah. That was always the dream. Right? I was always gonna have my career come out of who I am. Why? Because I’m just a very bad employee. Like, not good at it.

[00:13:32] Chase: Um, but it’s, it’s honestly a, like a kind of a sacred exploration to be a songwriter, to be a, a writer to be, and I don’t wanna like make it sound too highfalutin or whatever. Mm-hmm. But that. Pathway of scratching your own itch, discovering what’s interesting to you. Figuring out how to pull the thought through to completion, right?

[00:13:54] Chase: In a blog post or an email newsletter or a YouTube video, figuring out how to press record like and, and ramble and just, you know, improvise, which is how I got started. Like I was interested in, in, in some sort of a deeper connection to myself. And I wanted to see if anybody wanted to have that kind of connection with me too.

[00:14:15] Chase: Right. So for me personally, this was very much like a, a soulful exploration beyond just, can I do it? Because that was in there too. Can I make a website like this? Mm-hmm. Could I know how to figure out how to like light and do a camera stuff? Mm-hmm. Could I perform the camera like with nobody else in the studio?

[00:14:32] Chase: Could I make a song? And like, and, and all this goes way, way, way back to like high school where it’s like, yeah, could I record something? Could I write something and record it on my laptop, my gateway, like 6,500 or whatever it was. You know,

[00:14:46] Nathan: something that’s so unique about being a creator is the wide range of skills.

[00:14:50] Nathan: Like, you don’t actually get to specialize. Mm. You have to do all of these different things, especially, you know, you don’t have a team early on. You don’t have any of this. And so it’s something I’ve always admired about you is you’re just like, you’ll dive in, you’ll learn anything. Whether it’s design code on camera work, like.

[00:15:06] Nathan: How do you think about tackling each one of these? Was it deliberate or you just, you have something you wanna make and you’re like, I, I just decided to make it. And the first version was terrible and the second version was a little better.

[00:15:16] Chase: I’m laughing ’cause I’m like, well, first of all, what you really need is a, is a, is a deep sense of insecurity.

[00:15:22] Chase: Step one. Step one is like, be like concerned about if you’re lovable, but that’s like, uh, there was a drive. Mm-hmm. There was just a drive, there was a, a sensitivity and attunement like mm-hmm. I would watch pastors on stage. I would, or watch musicians at shows. I would watch movies like actors in movies or eventually learn to see the director and the filmmaker and the writer in the movie.

[00:15:50] Chase: And, and I would connect to these people as auteurs, as creator, as like a point of view. It’s like still in the age of ai, the moment you get that sniff that it’s like, oh, this feels like it’s fucking generated.

[00:16:03] Nathan: Right.

[00:16:03] Chase: You notice that? Yep. It’s like that uncanny valleying feeling where it’s like,

[00:16:07] Nathan: Ooh, it just asked a this.

[00:16:08] Nathan: This author just asked a rhetorical question and then answered it immediately later, or said, it’s not this. It’s that. Totally. You know when you’re like, Uhhuh.

[00:16:15] Chase: Totally. Even though like Chad’s pretty fucking good at those little like juxtapositions, I’m like, actually that’s brilliant. I should use that.

[00:16:22] Chase: But there’s something about it that just feels unpersonable. Mm-hmm. That feels like it’s not coming from an actual person and a point of view. And I don’t mean there needs to be a human, I just mean I want someone’s perspective, a lived experience. Mm-hmm. And something like that. And. Because I had those sensitivities and was so curious, uh, about those I icon forms of media or creativity, uh, because I connected with the filmmaker in the film and the musician and the song or the songwriter in the song.

[00:16:54] Chase: I just wanted that. Mm-hmm. I wanted to be that. Same thing with like, when I was designing those websites, like I was with Corbet Barr, who we partnered in Fizzle and he did think traffic before that. There was like a personality in the writing. There was a sense of of him in there. And I just wanted to create something where that was like coming through, especially with Pat Flynn when I did his site, there was like this like real California old license plate kind of vibe that we were going for.

[00:17:23] Chase: And Steve Kame, nerd Fitness where it was just like comic books and you know, Lego characters and uh, and stuff like that where it was somehow trying to, trying to take some of these elements. ’cause I had to limit myself creatively, but then to pull that through in a way that wasn’t cheesy. And then, you know, and there was very specifics in the web design, right?

[00:17:47] Chase: Where it’s like, okay, golden ratio on my type. And, uh, so it’s, I’m this wide, then my line, line line height needs to be this. And like, you know, and like learning to hand code websites by like percentages and, and s instead of pixels and stuff so that they’re responsive and all that jazz. All of that. I fell in love.

[00:18:04] Chase: I had one one CEO guy tell me when I was, when I was working for him, I was his marketing department and he was like, Jace, you fall in love with the technology. It makes you both the best and worst sales guy ever. You are never gonna be my solo sales guy, but like, I like you in the room kind of thing. So I fall in love with the technology I fall in love with.

[00:18:24] Chase: Like, I see the beauty in HTML CSS and trying to make it as concise as possible. I, for some reason, I went from being a musician to also, that’s beautiful. Mm-hmm. Right. I had a drive to learn some of this stuff, so like if I’m trying to teach someone how to do that, I’m, do I want to help? I want to explore where their interest is right now.

[00:18:46] Chase: It was just a, it was an interest, it was a need to be seen. It was a need to be a craftsman, and so for some reason that was up for me for some reason. You coding that website or like, you know, Photoshopping, it just like making a pixel perfect. Like why, like Right. How do you explain that? There’s just a, there’s something you wanted to learn how to do, you know?

[00:19:09] Nathan: Yeah. I feel like right now a lot of people are shying away from learning a skillset because they, they’ve had their identity around whatever. Previous job they had before they became a creator or something else, right? Mm-hmm. I, I am a, uh, filmmaker and editor, so I won’t go, I won’t go on camera, right?

[00:19:26] Nathan: Yeah. Yeah. I am a behind, behind the screen, behind the lens, uh, type person.

[00:19:30] Chase: Yeah.

[00:19:30] Nathan: Or another angle would be like, oh, I’m a developer. Yeah. And so of course it doesn’t look good.

[00:19:35] Chase: Yeah.

[00:19:35] Nathan: Right. Why would you expect me to make, make it look good? Like, you know, the code behind the scenes is perfect.

[00:19:40] Chase: Yeah.

[00:19:40] Nathan: And what I’m trying to get to with you, that you’re probably the person who, of my friends who embodies this the most is.

[00:19:47] Nathan: The obsession with learning every part of the craft.

[00:19:50] Chase: Mm.

[00:19:50] Nathan: And not even a, you don’t seem scared of it at all. You know, I, I could learn video editing, but mm-hmm. I don’t want to, it’s gonna be hard. Like, there’s so where you just dive in and you just do it. Yeah. Is that like, is that like a multi-week process?

[00:20:03] Nathan: Is that you’re spending months or you, like, what makes you say, Hey, I don’t have that skill, and I’d like to, and so

[00:20:08] Chase: Yeah.

[00:20:08] Nathan: There a month from now, I will,

[00:20:09] Chase: I guess the first thought that comes up is, is there’s plenty of stuff that I don’t decide to learn.

[00:20:14] Nathan: Okay.

[00:20:14] Chase: Not like consciously. I just like, there, there, there’s no interest.

[00:20:17] Chase: There’s no interest. There’s like no light over there.

[00:20:19] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:20:19] Chase: I can’t even see it.

[00:20:20] Nathan: Does anything come to mind that, that you’re like, oh, I, I’ve thought about learning that and I It’s

[00:20:24] Chase: a great question. Yeah. I don’t like, uh, becoming a shaman.

[00:20:29] Nathan: Okay.

[00:20:30] Chase: Yeah. I was like, I was like, maybe I’m gonna become a shaman.

[00:20:33] Chase: Yeah. And then I’m like, I don’t know if I have the ancestors for this. Like, it, it was just like, it that takes me too far away. It just takes me too far away

[00:20:42] Nathan: because they’re an, they’re an endless number of things on this earth to learn.

[00:20:46] Chase: Yes.

[00:20:46] Nathan: And all of that information is at your fingertips now. Yeah. But you know, like maybe 50 years ago mm-hmm.

[00:20:51] Nathan: You’re like, I want to be, and it’s like, okay, you’re gonna have to move countries. You’re going, you know, all of this stuff. And now you’re like, oh, I, yeah. I connect with anyone now

[00:20:58] Chase: you got it right here.

[00:20:58] Nathan: And so you, so being deliberate about here’s what I want to pursue and here’s what I done.

[00:21:03] Chase: Yeah. It’s, it’s really, it’s that Liz Gilbert thing about don’t, don’t follow your passion, follow your curiosity.

[00:21:10] Nathan: Mm.

[00:21:10] Chase: Follow your curiosity.

[00:21:12] Nathan: What’s the difference to you between those two things?

[00:21:14] Chase: Okay. Passion is like a thing I’m supposed to be eventually. I, I like, I’m passionate about this, and it’s like, remember, you are so passionate about gymnastics in high school, right? It’s like, yeah, but curiosity, there’s no pressure on curiosity.

[00:21:29] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:21:29] Chase: There’s, it, it, it alleviates all, it, it’s a subtle, it might be the same exact thing and all, when’s all said and done, but. For me, like way finding from where I am right now, my passion is like I’m looking backwards to what I’ve been passionate about. Mm-hmm. My curiosity is I’m right here looking at like where, what’s alive right now.

[00:21:49] Chase: So there’s something about personal interest that’s always been important not to say, you know, that person, that interest doesn’t dip.

[00:21:56] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:21:56] Chase: Right. And sometimes, sometimes I have enough wherewithal that like, this is gonna be important sort of past the dip and you just. You stick with it. Um, there’s something about your curiosity and your personal interest.

[00:22:09] Chase: There’s also something about sensing that there’s greatness out there. Like, uh, if I was stepping into something where I didn’t already, I hadn’t sniffed out some of the greats, like with web design, I kind of, I I saw some greats. Yeah. Like, wow. They were doing something freaking different. Like, oh, there’s artists out here with filmmakers with, you know, YouTubers with fricking obviously musicians and, and shamans and things like this.

[00:22:35] Chase: You can sniff out some of the greats. You have an experience with them and you’re like, oh, there’s something that can be devotional and beautiful about this. ’cause ultimately, I think that’s where I had to get. Is it has to be for me, I, I’m, I’m the one who’s gonna give me the love that I need.

[00:22:51] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:22:52] Chase: Actually, first and foremost, second of all, like if I’m in, if I can make this a labor of love because I believe it’s important and make my own contribution to the, the field of this thing meaningful as a gift to myself as like already meaningful, then all of the views and all of the comments and all the love and all of this, that and the other is a benefit.

[00:23:16] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:23:17] Chase: You know, be, but like, burnout is what happens, right. When we need, we’re leaning over our skis, we’re leaning forward, and we need that more. ’cause they’re, they can come, this is a curse is when it comes. ’cause people don’t have any idea of how long this game actually is. Mm-hmm. And how, what it’s like to be a fucking winner.

[00:23:39] Chase: For, for like years even. But to watch year four, like it’s been trickling down for like a year and you just see it on these people’s faces, you know this just like, it’s a real, it’s a, it’s a real, you’re getting que squeezed out ’cause you’re not aligned in some way, or, or you, what got you there won’t get, I got you here, won’t get you there kind of thing.

[00:24:02] Chase: Mm-hmm. Or it’s a longer game to be doing this professionally. So I’m like, I wanna make a clear distinction between doing this professionally. As a living.

[00:24:13] Nathan: Right.

[00:24:13] Chase: And being an honest, like in per honest pursuit of your craft, your, your exploration, your creativity, your artistry, because you don’t need to make any money from any of this stuff, you know?

[00:24:24] Nathan: And it’s a hard thing now because you can make money from anything.

[00:24:27] Chase: Yeah.

[00:24:28] Nathan: Then there’s a temptation of like,

[00:24:30] Chase: yeah,

[00:24:30] Nathan: oh, I like this. I’m getting traction with it. I should make money from it.

[00:24:34] Chase: There’s some old Buddhist precept I have promised to abstain from exploiting my passion. You know, it’s like, okay,

[00:24:43] Nathan: interesting.

[00:24:43] Chase: I promise to abstain. From exploiting my passions. It’s like, ’cause why? Because there’s something beautiful, sacred, holy and true in there. And like a huckster, we can sell ourselves out on the market and end up 10, 15. You don’t know how long life is, you end up 10, 15 years down the road having shucked that like sacred stuff out of you and you’re, and you’re kind of, you’re, you’re kind of a husk.

[00:25:11] Chase: You can build it all back. But, but again, to what got you here won’t get you there sort of thing, it can feel really devastating and to, to be that humbled and to come back to yourself. I’ve seen it happen again and again. I’ve experienced it, but like, so like there’s, there’s a way through it, but like, you know, life, it lives another Liz Gil Gilbert thing.

[00:25:33] Chase: Life is long and Chase is young. There’s plenty of time. I’ll be saying that when I’m 65, 78. Like, it’s this idea that like creative work is a very long term. Mm-hmm. Fricking exploration. And to do it in the marketplace of, you know, social media is bonkers. So I’m just like letting people know, like it’s bonkers.

[00:25:53] Chase: Okay. It takes a lot. It takes a lot. It might take everything, but it’s also beautiful.

[00:25:58] Mm-hmm.

[00:25:58] Chase: It’s also very beautiful and I’m grateful for it and I’m still surviving and I was a precious little snowflake. Let me just tell you. Okay. It is delicate in here, but I’ve learned, I’ve, I’ve learned, and you can too.

[00:26:11] Nathan: I love anytime we get a straight to camera like delivered to watch on YouTube so you can know that that was a speech into your soul

[00:26:19] Chase: as it’s eye contact that really matters. That’s talk about something I learned on YouTube. You can literally look into the camera. Like, I would do this for hours by myself.

[00:26:27] Chase: Everything I’ve done on YouTube is by myself with a freaking camera that I’m pushing record on and setting up all the lights and I would just like feel like there’s a human there.

[00:26:35] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:26:35] Chase: And I would go from that place I would connect to, to that place. Then different words come. And I find that that is like a really important part of like, when I slow down enough to do that, as I’m doing it now, now I can, now I won’t look away.

[00:26:49] Chase: And some people are like, this is fucking awkward. And I’m just like, no, this is connection. Like, you don’t know, but I know we can do one to many like this. And like, I see you, you’re good. I love you. Everything’s gonna be okay, but it’s gonna take a little work.

[00:27:02] Nathan: Alright. That’s something that I learned from Levi Allen, who’s a great filmmaker.

[00:27:05] Nathan: He’s

[00:27:05] Chase: awesome. Love Levi.

[00:27:07] Nathan: Uh, you know, also a very talented, prolific, like, we’ll learn any skill. He always starts this video with Hey friend.

[00:27:13] Chase: Yeah.

[00:27:14] Nathan: Like, right. Hey friend.

[00:27:15] Chase: Yeah.

[00:27:15] Nathan: You know, right into the camera. It’s not friends. Hey everybody. So excited to you all. Everyone’s together here. You know, it’s just like you and me.

[00:27:23] Nathan: We’re just, we’re just connecting. And it’s that same idea of, you know, right. To one person.

[00:27:27] Chase: Yeah.

[00:27:28] Nathan: And how that, that connection.

[00:27:29] Chase: Yeah.

[00:27:30] Nathan: Something else that I’ve heard you say in the past is that the internet rewards performance, not integration.

[00:27:36] Chase: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:27:37] Nathan: Tell me about that.

[00:27:37] Chase: Like a bad dad. We got it in like a bad dad.

[00:27:42] Chase: The internet rewards performance.

[00:27:44] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:27:44] Chase: Okay. So meaning like you’re getting this external validation for a performative. Like, uh, aspect of yourself. And so this is

[00:27:51] Nathan: like me score, you know, as a kid, I score the goal in, in the soccer game. Yeah. And it’s, that was celebrated not the work to,

[00:27:58] Chase: to get that. Yes.

[00:27:58] Chase: And you feel like all, like, there’s more love now. Mm-hmm. It’s not just, and, and you didn’t score the goal the next day. And there’s not that love. It’s conditional. The internet is extremely conditional that way. So

[00:28:10] Nathan: I had this moment, so, um, my 14-year-old son is very into pickleball. Mm. And so

[00:28:14] Chase: good job. I mean, fastest growing sport in America.

[00:28:17] Chase: Yeah. Great

[00:28:18] Nathan: sport. He picked that. Uh, he can now destroy me at it. There’s really, oh, I mean, he’s so good. How

[00:28:23] old’s

[00:28:24] Chase: your oldest?

[00:28:24] Nathan: He’s 14.

[00:28:25] Chase: Okay.

[00:28:25] Nathan: So we, uh, I came home last night from the PPA, so the whatever the professional pickleball, you know, the, their big tournament in Arizona. And so he’s playing in the 16 U Division.

[00:28:37] Chase: Wow.

[00:28:38] Nathan: And the, this team that they’re playing against. So they’re playing, um, playing at doubles game and the. They were winning the game. And I could start to see the kids on the other side like struggle and start to fall apart a little bit. And the kid goes to his dad, like I’m standing near his dad. ’cause it’s just like a small court.

[00:28:57] Nathan: Mm-hmm. It’s it, you know. And so I’m standing maybe 10, 15 feet away from his dad and you could just see the frustration on his dad’s face build. And the kid actually turns to his dad at this moment. I felt so bad. He’s like, Hey, like gimme something. I need this. And his dad was so frustrated.

[00:29:12] Chase: Yeah.

[00:29:12] Nathan: At the like, you could just watch it deflate and like their performance, you know, just continued to degrade.

[00:29:18] Nathan: And it was like he, like a bad dad, like a bad, you saw that show up. There was none of the like, Hey, whatever outcome comes from this, like, I’m here for you. All that. It was pure disappointment. Yeah. At a time when this four 14, 15-year-old, like needed the exact opposite. Which

[00:29:35] Chase: is hard. It’s hard. Like, by the way, I’ve been that dead more eye contact.

[00:29:39] Chase: I’ve been that dead, you know, like, uh. My dad has been that dad at moments. Mm-hmm. You know, not all the time, but some of the time. Like, it, it, we do it, we do it. Mm-hmm. We get excited. We get, we lose the connection. We, we lose track of our purpose. So first of all that second of all, the internet isn’t a human, but it’s made out of humans.

[00:29:57] Chase: Right, right. Back to that nervous system idea and you will get feedback that you are good and wanted and loved and it will nourish, it will like feed that part of you and

[00:30:08] Nathan: you use it to fuel to create the next piece of

[00:30:09] Chase: content or whatever

[00:30:10] Nathan: else. Exactly.

[00:30:12] Chase: There is always, however, a danger in being externally motivated.

[00:30:17] Chase: Mm-hmm. Externally validation, external validation is terrific, but unless you learn how to pull that inside and then start to be internally motivated according to the therapist. Right. That, and according to my experience as a creator. Mm-hmm. Right. That is what we’re looking for. Because otherwise you’re on the cycle of, of boom and bust and boom and bust and boom and bust, which is fine.

[00:30:40] Chase: So it’s one way to like squeeze out the dopamine and serotonin from a nervous system and then you’re gonna get all the cortisol and shit flooding back and

[00:30:46] Nathan: a lot of great artists whose work we. Incredibly admire

[00:30:50] Chase: Yeah.

[00:30:51] Nathan: Have ridden that cycle.

[00:30:52] Chase: Yes.

[00:30:52] Nathan: And you know, it’s a lot of times where you say like, oh, I want the outcome.

[00:30:56] Nathan: Yeah. I, I want the outcomes that they created, but you don’t wanna beat them.

[00:30:59] Chase: Right. Yeah. It’s like that Jeff Goss book. Like, real artists don’t starve

[00:31:02] Nathan: Uhhuh.

[00:31:02] Chase: Right. What if there’s a way to be a real artist mm-hmm. That has the longevity of a kind of like neutral growth of, of a, of equanimity.

[00:31:11] Nathan: Right.

[00:31:11] Chase: Instead of this boom and bust, which I’m a very passionate, romantic person.

[00:31:15] Chase: Like, I still have those booms and busts in, in ways. But like I can tell when I’m on the depressive side, like I can go like, okay, we’re on the depressive side. Mm-hmm. Like, and I can, and I can come at it with less judgment. Mm-hmm. Or no judgment. And when I’m on the fricking manic side, I’m gonna be like, I’m pretty sure we’re a little bit.

[00:31:34] Chase: Higher than we should be. Mm-hmm. Like, I, like I can, like, I’m not used to feeling this good,

[00:31:39] Nathan: do you know what I mean? Like, I don’t trust this.

[00:31:40] Chase: Right. The upper limits click in. Right. But, um, that external validation from the internet is a real thing. Mm-hmm. And it’s possible. And it takes so much work to get there and just get that fucking little hit back that you’ve really done something, you’ve accomplished something.

[00:31:56] Chase: But like, for some reason, I’m thinking about this, I’m just gonna say it ’cause it’s a weird meta metaphor. There’s this thing in meditative and yoga experience called the Kundalini awakening. Just go with it for a second. Kundalini away. Kundalini is strong energy lives at the base of the spine and you wanna wake it up so it comes up.

[00:32:11] Chase: One time I, I had a spontaneous kundalini awakening and I couldn’t, uh, sleep for three weeks. And my one mentor at the time was like, shut it down. Spend time in large bodies of water. Eat red meat, watch daytime television. Do anything that will shut down and bring your energy down because a kundalini meltdown will set you back ears.

[00:32:33] Nathan: Hmm.

[00:32:33] Chase: And uh, it’s like that I couldn’t ground it. I got new access to my, like, internal system, but I couldn’t ground it. I would lie down at sleep and it would be like fireworks in my body and the most pleasurable, like amazing. I felt like I had attained something. So to shut it down felt so sad, but I was getting crazy without sleep.

[00:32:54] Nathan: And you knew that it was going to cra your mentor was basically saying like, yeah, if you don’t regulate, this is somebody, you’re going to crash incredibly hard.

[00:32:59] Chase: So it’s, it, that’s the metaphor that’s coming to mind for like the, the internet. You work so hard to get that pop. It’s like go, something went viral.

[00:33:06] Chase: We’re starting to grow, we’re seeing the results. Mm-hmm. Okay. If you can’t ground it, like literally a tree root, tree roots go down, tree branches going up, reaching for sunlight, reaching down for the water and the soil. Mm-hmm. If you, you need both of these. I just like, this is the tantra of it. You need both of these because then you’re gonna be able to sustain the growth, and that’s what we want.

[00:33:28] Chase: Again, if we’re thinking really long term with this thing, which is, which is what we’re gonna need to do.

[00:33:32] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:33:33] Chase: I don’t know how many creators are going so big that they’re, that they’re done in a few years and then they can just kind of cash out. Like maybe people who started email marketing companies, but like the rest of us, silly little talkers and YouTubers and people who are, who are basically hobbyists creating something that now we’re professionals in.

[00:33:53] Chase: It’s like, how do we do this over a long period of time? There’s absolutely a way and your audience changes with you over time and like, there’s just, there’s stages to the game. Also congratulations. You got that pop. Like you saw some, you saw some traction. I don’t know if I ever really saw the traction.

[00:34:09] Chase: My whole thing has been like this.

[00:34:11] Nathan: Yep.

[00:34:12] Chase: The entire time we launched Fizzle, it was like to, to the, to the, uh, think traffic audience. Br We were like right there. 2000 members and we just fricking every, we were constantly Right. Podcast 10,000 listeners the whole time. Same there.

[00:34:27] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:34:28] Chase: Little bit of fluctuation.

[00:34:29] Chase: Same with my YouTube channels. Just been like, so I’m kind of, I’m being taught this like long term

[00:34:36] Nathan: mm-hmm.

[00:34:37] Chase: Thing. And it feels, it, I believe, I believe in it at least now because I’m doing it and I’ve been successfully paying for like my kids my life, like all this stuff for like years now, for over a decade.

[00:34:50] Chase: Mm-hmm. Uh, like 15 years almost. I mean before that with fizzle.

[00:34:55] Nathan: Right.

[00:34:55] Chase: For longer. But like, I’ve been 10 years on my own with just being a fucking YouTuber.

[00:34:59] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:35:00] Chase: You know?

[00:35:01] Nathan: So it, yeah, it’s this long longevity. What, what contributes to being able to have that longevity and to actually, if you were saying.

[00:35:10] Nathan: Okay. I am coaching or mentoring a creator.

[00:35:12] Chase: Yeah.

[00:35:12] Nathan: Who their, their tree as a creator is growing tall.

[00:35:16] Chase: Yeah.

[00:35:16] Nathan: And you’re, you’re starting to worry that maybe their roots aren’t matching it.

[00:35:20] Chase: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:35:21] Nathan: How would you coach or mentor them on building’s? A good

[00:35:24] Chase: question. Okay. So the roots, if it’s, if I’m really seeing a deficiency in the roots Yeah.

[00:35:28] Chase: Then it’s like, okay, we’re gonna go, we’re gonna do some deeper work. Mm-hmm. We’re gonna do some actual, like, depth work. We’re gonna get into our feelings. We’re gonna do, like, do some, do a men’s weekend if it’s a, if it’s a male or like whatever. Some sort, yeah. If you’re in a relationship, we’re gonna get deeper into relationship stuff.

[00:35:43] Chase: We’re gonna understand how to tell some truth to each other, understand what we’re co-creating in life. Like, there’s, that, that’s the grounding out into our domains of ownership is like where our roots go.

[00:35:55] Nathan: Are there specific questions that. You like or that, you know, you assign someone to journal on

[00:36:00] Chase: the question kind of comes from the person, right.

[00:36:02] Chase: But it, it, it, like, you we’re probably gonna be exploring, you know, stuff around mom and dad.

[00:36:07] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:36:08] Chase: Right. It’s just like, we’re probably gonna be exploring stuff around where do I feel performative in my life? And just kind of getting a little sense of that. And we’re, we’re gonna be definitely doing like somatic, like just sort of stuff in our body, literally down in our body.

[00:36:21] Chase: Like our back of our back down the, the down the back of our legs to the back of our heels. That’s the thing that opened in me in this coline awakening.

[00:36:29] Nathan: Okay.

[00:36:30] Chase: I never heard, I was like, I wasn’t there, I just didn’t have, we’d be building some internal awareness there. Lower belly, right? The bottom of the heart, the bottom of the brain feeling, the weight of the brain, the head actually resting on the neck.

[00:36:44] Chase: All this grounding sort of stuff.

[00:36:46] Nathan: Okay.

[00:36:46] Chase: Is like, uh, it, it sounds goofy, but it really, it starts to open our field of awareness to like. To what is what is good in this thing without me getting all hyped up? Without getting taken away and losing myself in the dream of the success of it. Because the other, another thing to like how we’re gonna be successful over long term is gonna be partnerships.

[00:37:10] Chase: And partnerships in order for those to succeed, well, you can’t be flaky.

[00:37:14] Nathan: Mm.

[00:37:15] Chase: And you, you, you’re gonna have to like, like the fin on the bottom of the surfboard is what keeps you like going in the same direct. You have, you have to develop that fin. And so when you, when a potential client comes in or an opportunity comes in and you got a little bit of like a, uh, but it’s a good opportunity.

[00:37:31] Chase: Like there’s an extra zero there, right? Where it’s like that, like we wanna slow down and notice that because what it’s gonna feel like there’s momentum and we gotta go with it. Um, knowing that you are a genius, like your nervous system’s literally a genius. And it’s, and like if you step into it, it’s gonna be learning in that, uh, feeling.

[00:37:51] Chase: And doing that consciously, as opposed to just like, uh, but that’s, we gotta do it. This is what we’re about, right? We gotta go all the fucking way. Turn the hat backwards, click, send. Right? And then you’re going, um, great, you’re on the ride. There’s gonna be some learning, you’re gonna get some stuff out of it.

[00:38:07] Chase: But like, long term, what makes these things work is your brand deals, your partnerships on those kinds of sides. They matter a lot. They do. And so not being flaky, but also they can tell, like, like any, like you can tell when someone’s coming at you with an opportunity or energy or you, they’re asking you to do something for them and you’re like, I don’t wanna do that.

[00:38:28] Nathan: Right,

[00:38:29] Chase: right. You’re building an ecosystem of partnership. That’s what’s gonna sustain you over a long period of time.

[00:38:35] Nathan: What I can think of, of actually quite a few people who I really admire. Them as humans. I admire their work, all of that. And if they were to pitch me on doing something together, I’d probably say no, because I feel like they don’t have that fin on their surfboard.

[00:38:49] Chase: Yeah, yeah.

[00:38:50] Nathan: That they’re gonna be onto the next thing, or they don’t have the stability to follow through.

[00:38:54] Chase: Yeah.

[00:38:55] Nathan: Or that sort of thing. And so I, I like that where you’re saying, Hey, how reliable are you? We’re talking about building skills earlier. Mm-hmm. Have you built the skill, the muscle, the discipline?

[00:39:04] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:39:04] Chase: Yeah.

[00:39:04] Nathan: To stay consistent and to follow through.

[00:39:06] Chase: Which part of that is the perspective that we’re gonna be here for a while. And these are the other plants in the environment. Like these thrive, we thrive, the, the, like. There’s an ecosystem,

[00:39:16] Nathan: right?

[00:39:16] Chase: That perspective and that take, that took me a long time to grow that.

[00:39:19] Chase: ’cause it was just like, me, me, me, my, my, my please. And is that the difference

[00:39:22] Nathan: between thinking, you know, three to six months out versus like three to six years? Or that’s the thing where you’re like, look,

[00:39:29] Chase: it’s, it’s one element of it. Mm-hmm. It’s one element of it. Right? There’s other parts of it that are related specifically to you.

[00:39:35] Chase: Like, who am I? You don’t know who you’re gonna be in three years.

[00:39:37] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:39:38] Chase: You don’t know who you were three, three years ago. You even recognized yourself in some ways that Ira glass quote again. Yeah. About taste. Now your taste is at a different level. Mm-hmm. Um, so it’s mystery. It’s an exploration. That’s why this is soul work.

[00:39:49] Chase: That’s why I like it so much. You know, especially as a creator, right? God’s the creator, right? Like, think about that word, like you’re making some shit. Um, this, this element of who you are gonna be and what your interests are gonna align with. And the fact that that’s. Like we can, we can have some sense of it.

[00:40:10] Chase: And also it’s like as a function of your age, like hormonally, if you’re not, if you’re a man at like 43, like I’m like, I know right where you are, if you’re 35, it’s like, okay, I know. Right? Like, like, and you might not have much of a fin yet. Yeah. You’re kind of squirrely. ’cause that’s what you’re supposed to be learning right now.

[00:40:26] Chase: Mm-hmm. Because pretty soon that fin’s gonna develop and you’re gonna go like, oh fuck yeah, I want to go this way and I want to take. Them with me, and yeah, this is what we’re doing. And then like other people are like, I want in. And you’re like, I don’t know, I haven’t even thought about you. You know, and you’re like, things kind of emerge and develop over time, but developing purpose

[00:40:46] Nathan: mm-hmm.

[00:40:46] Chase: In someone is, uh, you can’t rush it.

[00:40:49] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:40:49] Chase: It’s like a function of our hormones as men as we age. Like the estrogen goes up a little bit more. That like makes us a little more care takey, you know? But we also gotta navigate the testosterone, you know, women with perimenopause and all, like, there’s a, there’s like our hormones is one of the things that, that like we can be a little bit intelligent about because Yeah.

[00:41:09] Chase: At 26 young thirties Yeah. Go, go nuts dude. Right. Go crazy. Try stuff out. Mm-hmm. Right. And, and notice when, if you can slow down enough to notice when the hits kind of hurt. Or to like be like, oh, maybe I’m not as invincible as I think I am. There’s that line in that bony ver song at once. I knew I was not magnificent.

[00:41:29] Chase: Right? It’s like, that’s 39. You know? It’s a long game. It’s a long game. I had no idea. Now I’m so glad that what I’ve built is able to, A, be authentic to me. I can roll with it, I can change it, shift it, flow with it. B, I have partnerships in, in these brands and other creators and thi like that feel. Like soulful and good to me, I feel aligned, and c, I can, I don’t know exactly what the future is, but I can feel the direction of it that is holy.

[00:42:05] Chase: That’s great. Most of my life I have been a fucking scared kid trying to get to the next paycheck, right? Just like not feeling like I have done it yet, not feeling I have done it yet, and I still haven’t done it, but I like I’m doing it more, right? Mm-hmm. That is a. Fucking awesome place to be. I’m so glad for it.

[00:42:28] Nathan: Yeah. So something that I’ve watched in your career and, and that I’ve heard you talk about is this idea of becoming known for something on a pretty big scale that’s not your deepest work.

[00:42:37] Chase: Yeah.

[00:42:38] Nathan: Right? Yeah. And you’re talking about the emotional connection to the work.

[00:42:41] Chase: Yeah.

[00:42:41] Nathan: Uh, maybe things that drive depression or like the downs and the cycles.

[00:42:47] Nathan: What did that look like for you in your journey, and then how did you come through it?

[00:42:50] Chase: Yeah. It is a great, it’s like, yeah, it’s, uh, I’ve always had two skis going right. And one of them’s the, like bigger audience

[00:43:00] Nathan: mm-hmm.

[00:43:01] Chase: Public facing. Uh, figuring out how to make money from that one. Mm-hmm. This is like the thing that they want, you know, you know about iga?

[00:43:10] Chase: Yes. What, what you’re great at, what the world needs and what you can fucking make. I don’t know, t remember what the other one is now, but it’s like, this is what the world needs. Mm-hmm. And what they’re wanting from me. And then there’s the other ski, which, which was something more, it’s like this, I keep using the word soulful.

[00:43:28] Chase: Mm-hmm. But it’s like my authentic flow. It’s, it’s, I was a, I was, I got really into Christianity. My, none of my family was Christians. I just was like interested and curious. I think I just wanted more hugs, you know, or something. And then it ended up becoming like an identity. And I became professional and I became like trained as a pastor, was like a successful worship leader pastor guy for a long time.

[00:43:51] Chase: And then my wife at the time, and I were like, you know, after starting churches, like, I think we’re not gonna do this anymore. She, like, I was literally taking a crap and she leaned in and was like. I don’t think I’m gonna go to do this thing with the God who’s got the whole health thing anymore. And I was like, all right.

[00:44:06] Chase: But my first thought was, all right, father, we’ll see where this goes. My first thought was a prayer, my first, and, and ever since then, it’s still been an authentic exploration of spirituality, the soulful, deeper work, all the things that can’t help but come out from me in here about the longevity, the roots going down, and uh, the sacredness of our nervous systems.

[00:44:27] Chase: And the fact that like the more you’ll get aligned with the fact, with your nervous system, the more of a chance you can put another nervous system into resonance with you. ’cause like we’re so susceptible to this, like this billions of years old, it’s just billions of years old. So that second ski has always been in this like soulful, deeper sort of side of things.

[00:44:48] Chase: Mm-hmm. This curious, honest, like cosmic explorer, curious. Mm-hmm. Like thing. And I had never quite felt like, uh, like ready to start. Just offering that. Mm-hmm. Until recently, I started making more offerings in and hosting these retreats. Right now it’s just men’s work. Mm-hmm. And doing, we’re doing more client work.

[00:45:10] Chase: I’ve been training and coaching for like 15 years. Yeah. Like from seminaries and like Dan, who I was with here yesterday, did his coaching thing and it’s like off starting to make those offers into the thing that I’ve been slow, like learning passionately over a long period of time, starting to put those things out.

[00:45:27] Chase: I’m surprised how much of me it brought back into my work because as a provider and a caretaker. That other ski where the money’s already coming in. Like, that’s where I’m gonna, like, I’m scared. I want to make sure that that’s going. And, and, but as like a soulful guy, I’m like, dude, I’m scared. ’cause I like, I am gonna burn out.

[00:45:51] Chase: I’m like, I’m becoming a husk. I’m mm-hmm. M like,

[00:45:55] Nathan: and is that as you’re like diving in and teaching business content and all these courses and like

[00:45:59] Chase: Yeah.

[00:46:00] Nathan: What was the thing that you were successful at and not

[00:46:04] Chase: resident even then? I was the pastor of that community.

[00:46:06] Nathan: Okay.

[00:46:06] Chase: I was a pastor and I was a motivational speaker.

[00:46:09] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:46:09] Chase: Right. I would take the, we would develop the content, I would perform it into a, right, into a course. We would lead, do the coaching calls, and it was an energy of like, uh, you know, I live in a van down by the river, like, let’s go, what’s I’m getting You fired up. Right? Yeah. And take like, because when you’re starting something from scratch and you live in fricking Indiana and you don’t have that many close friends, but you like mm-hmm.

[00:46:33] Chase: Started paying attention to some blogs and you took a chance and like, now you’re paying $50 a month to be a part of this community. It’s like, I wanna start a blog on this thing. It’s like, man, just, you need some firepower. You need like, you need help. Like Diana needs a little juice. Right. Diana now has this very successful photography blog, but like, um, that.

[00:46:55] Chase: Motivational speaker plus pastoral element, and then I was just a teacher. I’ve always been a great teacher. I can synthesize information really quick. Mm-hmm. I can, I can put stuff together, I can find what’s interesting. I can also go off on rabbit trails, as you can see, but like the, but the, the like performance of information is, is mm-hmm.

[00:47:15] Chase: Not too challenging for me. Mm-hmm. Also the development of it. Like the first very first course we did at Fizzle was called Defining Your Audience. Mm-hmm. And I was just, me, Corbit was just like, go make it. ’cause I was the web designer who before I would design a website, I would go read every comment on the website.

[00:47:32] Nathan: Right.

[00:47:32] Chase: I would read every single comment did. I’m like, like, who are these people? Well, that’s my version of deep research. ’cause like, I’m just like, who are they? And I would most of the time see a little avatar and like this, the, the gist. I, I didn’t read any of the article. I was just like, what’s this?

[00:47:46] Chase: Where are they coming from? ’cause when people are commenting, they’re like, look at me. Look at me. Like, here’s something I realized that’s good about you. That’s what, that’s about me. Right. Everything’s about them. The articles that we’re writing is about them.

[00:47:57] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:47:57] Chase: Right. The videos that are made, it’s like part, it’s like it’s about them.

[00:48:00] Chase: Actually. They’re the ones, it’s like back to Donald Miller thing, where it’s like they’re the ones who are the hero.

[00:48:06] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:48:07] Chase: You’re the Yoda. You’re not the Luke Skywalker. You have to become the Luke Skywalker in your own life to like take a chance and do something, the main character energy. But then when you’re making something, you’re the guide.

[00:48:18] Chase: You’re the guide in the hero’s journey. Right. That was fast. And, and that was like one of the pieces in this defining your audience thing where it’s like an an actual perspective of service. Mm-hmm. To understand who these people are, what they’re struggling with. ’cause nobody on the fricking internet is gonna love you the way that your mom did, or at least we’re supposed to.

[00:48:39] Chase: Okay. Like, they don’t care. You’re still needing that. And that’s wholly and sacred and let’s talk about it, but like. What they’re interested in, if you wanna be a successful creator, is you have to get interested in what they’re interested in. You have to identify or understand what their need and their journey is.

[00:48:56] Chase: And chances are, if you’re building an audience around your persona, it’s the same need that you had.

[00:49:01] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:49:01] Chase: Right. Where the, the place where you’re the most valuable to someone is right on top of the spot that cost you the most to learn about. Right. I don’t know, does that answer questions?

[00:49:14] Nathan: Yeah. I mean, there’s a quote that came to mind.

[00:49:16] Nathan: Um, I think it’s from Phil McKernan, where he says, your greatest gift is next to your deepest wound.

[00:49:20] Chase: Mm-hmm.

[00:49:21] Nathan: And, uh, I always think about that, you know, that’s in like a very soulful, like, do all the work through your pain and trauma. Yeah. And use that to impact the world. But it, you can also apply it in a way, going back to the curiosity of, in a very tactical skill-based way, where you could say, Hey, what’s the thing that I struggled with the most?

[00:49:40] Nathan: Mm-hmm. You know, as I was. Learning these skills or learning business or learning and these other things, and they’ll be like, oh, maybe that’s what I can teach.

[00:49:48] Chase: Yeah.

[00:49:48] Nathan: You know? Yeah. Or they say, if you’re teaching something, like go back to the, the painful time that you learn that lesson.

[00:49:56] Chase: Yeah.

[00:49:56] Nathan: And, and if you share that, people will automatically trust you.

[00:49:58] Nathan: They’re in more,

[00:49:59] Chase: they’re in, they’re in. Yeah.

[00:49:59] Nathan: Because they’re like, oh, that’s what, okay. When, even if it’s a simple thing that ultimately doesn’t matter, like the time that you were learning to write client proposals and you did it wrong and it cost you a $5,000 web design gig. Right.

[00:50:11] Chase: Right.

[00:50:12] Nathan: You know, and so now you learn to do it this way, and now I’m teaching you the same thing.

[00:50:15] Nathan: Right. It’s so I trust you,

[00:50:16] Chase: like authoritative actually. Mm-hmm. I, ironically, again, these are billion year old nervous systems. Right. It’s stuff like that, that makes so much sense on that level.

[00:50:25] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:50:25] Chase: But might not, might not make sense from the, like the, the things we’ve been trained to try to be, you know, the,

[00:50:30] Nathan: the thing that it makes me think of is you going back to the.

[00:50:34] Nathan: The musician and the songwriter. Mm-hmm. And like then it was like almost what gets status in that world of like, with the authentic connection and saying like, oh, here’s what I’m actually truly feeling.

[00:50:44] Chase: Yeah.

[00:50:45] Nathan: And I think that’s true now in the creator world.

[00:50:47] Chase: Yeah.

[00:50:47] Nathan: Of like, not only do people see, oh, you’re being real and they connect with you, but the, and they’re more likely to know, like, and trust you, but they’ll share ’em more too, where they’re like, oh, this is someone who is sharing from like a, like something that’s deeply personal to them.

[00:51:03] Chase: Yeah. There’s a, there’s a a lot of videos that I’ve done where I just had a little extra energy.

[00:51:08] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:51:09] Chase: And I did these like songs as intros. Some of ’em are incredible. Nathan Barry

[00:51:14] Nathan: imagining you with Extra Energy.

[00:51:16] Chase: Dude. There was some like little vlog I did, uh, for a trip to Bozeman when I was with a, working with a company up there packed.

[00:51:23] Chase: And, uh. I did an intro about Bozeman ’cause I fell in love with Bozeman.

[00:51:28] Nathan: Yeah, yeah.

[00:51:29] Chase: I was just like, oh my God, I love, this is before I saw Yellowstone and all that other stuff. Okay. Now I’m a huge Taylor Sheridan fan. Yep. As you can see from my Western shirt. But like, I’m just trying to get, I’m just trying to get like extra status in some shared and production Land Man season three.

[00:51:44] Chase: But the, the intro that I made for that video. Is so fucking good. I still to this day, have a buddy, Jesse Elder, who introduces me. When he introduces me to somebody. He’s like, here, watch this. And he pulls up that

[00:51:59] Nathan: You’re in person together.

[00:52:00] Chase: We’re in person. This is Chase. I mean,

[00:52:02] Nathan: actually no,

[00:52:03] Chase: it’s so good. A lot of chase

[00:52:04] Nathan: to

[00:52:04] Chase: introduce if anybody knows someone at the, at the Bozeman fricking travel sort of world.

[00:52:09] Chase: Uh, please, we need to, we need to hook that up. The Tourism Bureau, it’s one of those partners. I’m, I’m trying to build one of those for sure, but I’ve built a lot of songs with raps and, uh, lyrics that like, are so much fun. Mm-hmm. It’s so much fun to do, to just like, pull that out and I kind of crush, uh, and then I just drop it and walk away over here to the ski.

[00:52:28] Chase: That’s like, it’s just making, making the money. But I, it’s one of those questions I have at the back of my head. If I could just. Go off and do music thing? Would, would, i, could, I, should I kind of thing, because that’s the most vulnerable place for me to go. And I still, like, I’ll, I play my drum and I play, I, I, you know, pray, I pray with music by myself, and I improvise and I make stuff up.

[00:52:52] Chase: Mm-hmm. And it’s still very much alive, but like, to, to take that and put it, and like, again, the look at me kind of place is something I’ve, I’ve been much slower to do. You know,

[00:53:04] Nathan: I’ve learned so much either directly from you or from watching you, or a friendship over the years. Um, I’ll write off a couple of them and then go to the thing that I’m like that I see you doing that.

[00:53:14] Nathan: I wanna learn from

[00:53:15] Chase: you. Mm.

[00:53:15] Nathan: So first, uh, I still edit the way you taught me, like edit videos, which as a quick aside, that is to hit record on the camera, deliver straight to camera. Every time you make a mistake, just do a clap. And then do the take again and then edit backwards.

[00:53:31] Chase: Mm-hmm.

[00:53:32] Nathan: And so you see in your timeline all these spikes, you see this audio spikes of the snap or the clap, whatever.

[00:53:36] Chase: Yeah.

[00:53:37] Nathan: And then you can go through and edit all of that Uhhuh. Um. Before I dive into the other things, any, anything to add? Anything that didn’t get right about the way you added?

[00:53:45] Chase: No, that’s perfect. Yeah. And I, I actually would always go, I would just make those, like three or four of those. So now it’s very, now like I, like my daughter and I, we play like, we just watched all the Jurassic Parks and so we play raptors and I’m like, and she’s like, how do you do it so fast?

[00:54:00] Chase: I’m like, honey, that was 20 years of fucking up on camera. Pardon my French. Right. But yeah, you see the audio waveform? Mm-hmm. And you can just go backwards and it makes it really easy to flow. Uh, once you, once you’ve edited a few times, it helps you to do it. And I’m always encouraging, like we were talking before, uh, to people to edit their own stuff.

[00:54:21] Chase: Right. Because it makes you better on camera. Mm-hmm. And that is. That’s a lifelong skill. Once you get good at that, sort of like being on camera. ’cause you understand what you’re gonna be editing later. I mean, I still edit all my own stuff. I’ve worked with editors in the past and they’ve been helpful.

[00:54:39] Chase: But like I just put a little, I just got a little different, it’s that taste thing right? Where it just comes off a little bit better and you know, I’m whatever, 15 or 20 years into a professional YouTube and video maker career and I’m still editing my own stuff. Mm-hmm. And I still use Final Cut instead of like all the things I should be using, you know?

[00:54:59] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:54:59] Chase: Because it’s just like, I’m so, it’s just so fast. Mm-hmm. Um, but yeah, that’s a going backwards because then you might do a take three times and you’re just getting the last one of it. ’cause the

[00:55:12] Nathan: last one was where, when you were in front of the camera it was the take you’re happy with.

[00:55:16] Chase: Yeah.

[00:55:16] Nathan: When you moved on,

[00:55:16] Chase: you moved on from there.

[00:55:17] Chase: ’cause you’re, you’re literally editing in

[00:55:19] Nathan: front of the

[00:55:19] Chase: camera.

[00:55:20] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:55:21] Chase: What else?

[00:55:21] Nathan: So another one is. Unless I hear differently.

[00:55:25] Chase: Mm-hmm.

[00:55:26] Nathan: This is a bias towards action. Yeah. So this is something that you put together actually with Chris Johnson?

[00:55:31] Chase: Yeah.

[00:55:31] Nathan: Where, uh, you talked about something you learned from him, what it was

[00:55:36] Chase: in Fizzle.

[00:55:36] Chase: We, we did an interview inside of Fizzle, which was my previous business with Corbet Barr and Caleb Logic. And uh, and we did an interview with, with Chris Johnson, who’s sort of like this, like he’s a little bit like Rainman about businessy type stuff.

[00:55:48] Nathan: Yep.

[00:55:49] Chase: And he is like, another thing that I, that I optimize for with my employees is, uh, is a bias for action.

[00:55:55] Chase: Uh, so I say, if you’re gonna write me an email, what I want you to do is make a decision and say, unless I hear differently, this is what I’m gonna do.

[00:56:02] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:56:03] Chase: Then I’ll tell you if I want you to change it, but if I don’t say anything, you go ahead and do that.

[00:56:06] Nathan: It’s like the train is going by. Yeah. And if I’m like, oh no.

[00:56:09] Nathan: Switch directions, otherwise. I know where you’re going.

[00:56:11] Chase: Totally. That’s what bias for action means. And so I took that, I don’t know, however long ago that was, and I just grabbed a web, A URL unless I hear differently. Dot com and or different Yeah. Should be, unless I hear otherwise. This is, uh, this is internet like history, but, and you know, I just loved making all these little one-off websites.

[00:56:31] Chase: It’s another thing I think, uh, I don’t think it’s still there, but Smuggling Biz was on the inside. Joke from the Fizzle Show for forever ago. Uh, tiny ceramic unicorns.com. Another one. I’ll just make these one page websites, uh, money stress.biz. Uh, just make these little one page websites about one idea.

[00:56:55] Chase: Just one idea. Like the money stress was just like, you’re just scrolling down and there’s all these little bits of text that you like to stop and read and stop read. And then at the end of it’s just this dog gif. Just like, whatcha you so sad about? But unless I hear differently. Dot com, what is it? Is just like some sample emails.

[00:57:14] Chase: Mm-hmm. The video, it’s footage how to it? Yeah. Yeah. Here’s how to do it. It is just like real simple. And that ended up getting on, uh, oh gosh. Who was that guy on the W three? Uh. Some old, the guy who wrote like all these HTML books and stuff. Oh, like Jeffrey

[00:57:27] Nathan: Zelman,

[00:57:28] Chase: Zeldman.

[00:57:28] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:57:29] Chase: Zeldman had a, like that was my, pick

[00:57:30] Nathan: that up

[00:57:31] Chase: little moment.

[00:57:31] Chase: You know?

[00:57:32] Nathan: Yeah. And the version of you who is like coding responsive websites was like, yes, I made it, well,

[00:57:37] Chase: I made it

[00:57:38] Nathan: Zelman

[00:57:38] Chase: The of me in Mexico with my co-founder with a mustache and a pink shirt.

[00:57:42] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:57:42] Chase: On video is a little embarrassing for

[00:57:45] Nathan: sure. Oh man. Yeah, there’s, there’s so many other things there. But one other one is this obsession and learning skills.

[00:57:52] Nathan: Mm-hmm. And just saying like, follow your curiosity and just say, oh, I’ll learn that thing.

[00:57:55] Chase: Mm-hmm.

[00:57:56] Nathan: The thing that you do that you’ve always done that I feel like I don’t do that holding things loosely and playing.

[00:58:02] Chase: Mm-hmm.

[00:58:02] Nathan: Right? Like, uh, you’ll do this thing where you’re like, should the intro to this vlog about Bozeman be a song?

[00:58:09] Chase: Mm-hmm.

[00:58:10] Nathan: Yeah. Absolutely. And like, I think I care way too much what people think Uhhuh. And so the like freeform. All of that. Yeah. Like there’s too much of a editing process from even what’s in my brain. Yeah. To what comes out.

[00:58:24] Chase: There is a deep care, like wanting to be. Seen and connected to as me, but there’s also like a fierce, like, I will fucking leave and go be fine somewhere.

[00:58:33] Chase: You know? Like I will be like, people who need to see this will see this and understand it. Mm-hmm. And it’s not for everybody. I remember hearing, I used to listen religiously to Marin’s, WWTF show.

[00:58:44] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:58:45] Chase: Um, and he had this, uh, was it Stuart Smith, an English like sort of alt comic guy on there. And he has just brilliant but dry shit.

[00:58:56] Chase: And, and Mark was talking to him about like, what, like what have you learned about doing? He is like, I, there it is not for everybody. I can spot them. Like, I’ll, like, early on I’ll spot the ones that it’s like, and I’ll call them out. I’ll be like, sir, this is not for you. It is just gonna have to hang in for a little bit, you know?

[00:59:11] Chase: And there’s something like in

[00:59:13] Nathan: a comedy

[00:59:13] Chase: show. In a comedy show mm-hmm. He, ’cause ’cause it’s just this guy’s like, what the, he doesn’t get it, but I’m looking at it going like, this is fucking brilliant.

[00:59:22] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:59:22] Chase: You know, and this guy’s over here just it completely dead to it. Mm-hmm. Like, this is not interesting at all.

[00:59:28] Chase: The reality of something that is actually really well put together, going completely over or under somebody’s radar, first of all, that that’s true and that can happen.

[00:59:39] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:59:40] Chase: Second of all the thick enough skin to be able to, to take it third of all the open heart enough to keep going. Mm-hmm. And doing it.

[00:59:49] Chase: So it’s, it’s not easy. It’s not easy, but there’s also, like, the first thing I was thinking about when you were like, you know, be more playful. And I’m like, well, listen, Nathan, bear, I’m already covered by the blood of Jesus. Do you know what I mean? Like, we all get in, you know? So, uh, but it’s like, there is a, there’s like a, there’s a, a strong sense of, you know, and Jesus and I sort of have an open relationship, but there’s just a strong sense of, of like, I’m in, I’m in my flow.

[01:00:17] Chase: I’m doing my, I’m doing my direction in life as authentically as I know how to do right now, and I’m sure I’m making mistakes. Mm-hmm. And I, the mistakes used to feel like I would die. Like, I’ve, like, not just, I made, I did something wrong. Like, I’m wrong. Right. I’m bad. Right. Um, and now it’s a little bit more like, you know, we all, we all make mistakes.

[01:00:38] Chase: Ooh. What I learned about mistakes is we get to, mm-hmm. We get to say sorry and we get to try better next time. And I guess I, that wasn’t like a, I, I, for some reason thought like. The true about me is that I’m not good, you know?

[01:00:51] Nathan: Right.

[01:00:51] Chase: But, um, I love hearing that you want more of that playfulness. If I was designing sort of a route for that with you, it would be, I want you to do two things.

[01:01:01] Chase: I want you to take some risks, but I’d want you to enjoy it. Mm-hmm. To notice if you’re enjoy. So it’s not just taking risks, even if you don’t like it. Mm-hmm. It’s taking risk for sure. But to find the thing that you actually enjoy, right? Mm-hmm. Like to, to try to start normalizing that experience in your nervous system.

[01:01:17] Chase: Yeah. Of like, oh, sometimes a little bit of out of control, a little bit of, of unstructured narrative. And I’m kind of enjoying myself and I get to be a little, ’cause I’ve identified with the, I was a, I was a funny guy. I was like, I was gonna use humor to try to get people to, to like me. And I, that eventually became very authentic.

[01:01:40] Chase: I don’t remember being all that young and trying it on, but, um. I, I’m always a little chaotic. I’ve always had a little chaotic, chaotic. And the, uh, the, the interesting thing like is most people don’t think I’m as smart as I am. You know, that might sound like, you know, Mo there’s this line in the Bible that apparently Moses wrote where he is like, Mo Moses was the most humble man on the planet, which is very un humble thing to say Moses.

[01:02:04] Chase: Right? But like, you know, like to say like, I’m very in intelligent. Like my mind will get, get, I un, I tr I believe I’ll get what I need to get when I’m talking about financial investments and this, that and the other. There’s stuff that I’m like, wow, I just don’t get, I just really can’t get it. And I’m okay with that.

[01:02:21] Chase: But other things, like I can sense like, no, no, I know something. Like, you come with me down into the, you, we go down into soul deep sort of places, right? And I’ll be there in a way that surprises you. I’m like, I know that. I know that. And I don’t need you to know that or see that or believe that about me.

[01:02:36] Chase: Like I’ll, like, I know that about, I, I hold myself there. Um. So there’s a confidence, there’s like a, there’s something that’s confident. And the irony is that came from insecurity.

[01:02:47] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[01:02:47] Chase: I came from, like, I didn’t feel safe. I didn’t feel okay, I didn’t feel loved or wanted or connected to. I just felt unsure.

[01:02:55] Chase: I just felt a lot of unsure. And so I would perform and do stuff to get those, you know, external validations and the dopamine. And it was never, it never was satisfying, but I like made a whole personality out of it. And it took years for the hormones to start correcting to the point where it’s like, I’m ready to feel my feelings now.

[01:03:16] Chase: You know? It’s like, oh, there you are, Peter. You know, you’re starting to feel the thing that you wanted all along. It’s just on the, it is just like you had to go through grief and things that I really didn’t wanna feel

[01:03:26] Nathan: mm-hmm.

[01:03:26] Chase: To get there. Um, now how that connects to play if I’m really smart, like, like how am I gonna connect that?

[01:03:34] Chase: But like. Those two things of you taking risks and then you actually like learning, noticing if you like it or not.

[01:03:42] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[01:03:43] Chase: To say, to sense how, ’cause chaos is the mother of us all actually, you know, chaos is like, where it comes from. Chaos is we, we prefer order. Especially like you, you prefer order high conscientiousness.

[01:03:58] Chase: Nathan Barry is what I call you to all our friends, right? High conscientiousness, Nathan Barry, control directed, disciplined, going in the same direction for a long period of time. Chaos. Is would be, yeah. Would be a little bit of the antidote to all of that. Mm-hmm. But it’s where that play comes from. It’s where it’s where innovation comes from.

[01:04:18] Chase: And so to, to try to get some of that into your system, the quickest route would be just through taking some risks. Mm-hmm. Right. Taking some, some risks and then slowing down or noticing enough what, what that felt, what that feels like. Yeah. Because when you start to feel safer with a little more risk take and not, like, not like, oh, I don’t, not like you’re, you’re risking your fucking life or something, you know, just like, I’m gonna say this thing.

[01:04:42] Chase: I’m gonna perform this song in karaoke sober, you know, I’m gonna do this, uh, I’m gonna try like karaokes. Great. Actually, that’s what I would do. You know, I was a karaoke whisperer of Portland. I taught many people how to, how to do karaoke and, and I gave many of their golden song. And it is like, it, it’s a, it’s a holy thing, figuring out where your holy song is.

[01:05:02] Chase: ’cause with the karaoke, you want to, you gotta be able to sing it like, ’cause it means something to you.

[01:05:06] Nathan: Right.

[01:05:07] Chase: You gotta be able to, like, you want, people can’t

[01:05:09] Nathan: be souling

[01:05:09] Chase: it, you want people to hear it because they’re having their own moment with it. Mm-hmm. Right. It’s like a good enough song. And it, and it also can’t be something that someone already did.

[01:05:17] Chase: You know, you can’t be fricking don’t stop believing, but it can be faithfully by journey, which is mine. I will fucking, I’ll make the place cry and fall out and everybody’s arm in arm doing the big chorus at the end. Uh, but finding that song for you is one of those like risks that I, I that would explore because then you get to sense through.

[01:05:40] Chase: Ironically through the meaning of this song.

[01:05:42] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[01:05:42] Chase: And then the, the potential embarrassment of performing it in a karaoke place where people are drunk anyways. Mm-hmm. Right. It’s like you, it does, none of this matters. None of this matters, but it’s all the ingredients are there. Mm-hmm. To play with that little bit of chaos and how you find yourself in it.

[01:05:59] Chase: And that’s what’s so good about it. And that’s like, that’s what creating on, on in the, in the midst of a public marketplace

[01:06:05] Nathan: Right.

[01:06:06] Chase: Is like, ’cause we really notice when someone’s showing up as themselves. And I think that’s what we’re gonna crave more and more and more over time. It’s what we’ve always craved, but like, even more so in the age of AI

[01:06:17] Nathan: because it’s so different.

[01:06:18] Nathan: Like, one thing that stood out to me was you talking about speaking directly to the person and imagining the person in the other side of the lens. Yeah. Just watching that and like sitting that and forming an emotional connection to not a direct person, but you can, you can imagine, you can create them, you can have that persona there and that being so different from.

[01:06:37] Nathan: Reading from the AI edited generated script off the teleprompter to totally hit that before you go to the next thing.

[01:06:45] Chase: Totally. You know what your, your key phrase in that to me was, here’s what this means to me.

[01:06:49] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[01:06:50] Chase: Like, that’s the name of the field notes.

[01:06:52] Nathan: Yeah.

[01:06:53] Chase: Like, right. It’s like, or the segment on the YouTube channel or whatever.

[01:06:56] Chase: Right. Here’s what this means to me. ’cause. What I, what I’m sensing and what you’re saying is like actually, uh, wanting to be seen a little deeper. Mm-hmm. Right? It’s like, like that’s, that’s a little different than play. Right. It’s like wanting to be seen a little deeper and wanting to be a little more, um, a little more show your work.

[01:07:12] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[01:07:13] Chase: Right. And that’s awesome. That’s right. I think that, you know, from my perspective and from my experience, that only grows things

[01:07:20] Nathan: right.

[01:07:20] Chase: And it doesn’t grow things with everybody.

[01:07:22] Nathan: Yep.

[01:07:22] Chase: Like it grows things with like

[01:07:25] Nathan: the right people,

[01:07:26] Chase: just a certain, and it’s like, again, that’s Stuart Smith, like this, this isn’t for you, sir.

[01:07:31] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[01:07:31] Chase: Right. To put yourself out there in a way, the, the, the, you call it rigid, some would call it control, but maybe a better word is even just structured.

[01:07:41] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[01:07:41] Chase: The structured or architecture approach to things makes so much sense, like a developer, like just like putting it out. What I’m hearing is just what I’m feeling from you is more of your heart.

[01:07:52] Chase: In it. Right? And like you have be an amazing big heart. You have a huge heart family man Bill. Like I see you with the employees. I see. It’s like, you know it, you’ve got a lot that’s golden and glowy about you. Mm-hmm. And I would like, I would like to see more of that. I would tune in for that and, you know, being, you know, here’s what this means to me.

[01:08:13] Chase: As a way to connect to a little more of that, and also as a way for you to have something to explore

[01:08:20] Nathan: mm-hmm.

[01:08:21] Chase: In that, ’cause it’s like a thread. Yeah. You start pulling it and it, it’s a little different over time and you’re gonna have a dip with it where it’s like, some are gonna be great and some are like, just, that’s why I do ’em at the end of my videos because

[01:08:34] Nathan: well talk about this idea of bag reviews.

[01:08:37] Nathan: Yeah. Because at first we haven’t even talked about that of like, that you do the bag reviews Yeah. But then the philosophy, right? Yeah. Bringing philosophy into that.

[01:08:43] Chase: Yeah. Well, again, to those two skis

[01:08:45] Nathan: mm-hmm.

[01:08:45] Chase: I’ve got my own personal interest and I, I do geek out about bags where at least I have,

[01:08:50] Nathan: I mean, I have, I, it’s sitting under the desk, but I have a bag right here that you recommended.

[01:08:54] Chase: Troubador Apex, bro.

[01:08:55] Nathan: That’s a great,

[01:08:56] Chase: I know. I

[01:08:56] Nathan: love it.

[01:08:57] Chase: Yeah. Troubadour iss awesome. They’re like, that’s a perfect bag for you. Yeah. It’s a perfect bag for you. So, yeah, I, I, first of all, I find all these soulful brands that are interesting, like Troubadour, who are making elevated. Elevated products. Right? How do you notice that it’s elevated?

[01:09:11] Chase: The shape and the structure and the silhouette of it. The, uh, the, the materials, especially on the inside, especially on that handle. Mm-hmm. And the straps. All these little design elements. And the same thing we were doing with websites, right? Where it’s like, how do we make this a little different? All these physical soft goods designers are doing the same thing.

[01:09:29] Chase: I don’t notice a difference between those two designing on a digital surface versus the, you know, same, it’s the same exact thing. And, um, so first of all, it’s finding all these brands and relating to them and seeing these products and all that came from personal interest and curiosity. All of that came from one mm-hmm.

[01:09:46] Chase: Company that, you know, Corbett knew the guise of Manal, uh, forever ago. Oh yeah. Because they used to come to like bloggy conference, internet things. And I negotiated to get a bag for them from them. And I’ll do a little video and, you know, anyways, the rest is, the rest is history. I still get most of the things in my life for free, including my sauna and coal plunge.

[01:10:07] Chase: Thank you. Redwood Outdoor Sauna. Make the best sauna out there. A little bit thicker thermo wood. Okay. I went for the, I went for the, the more expensive 10,000 unit fucking uh, heater. Also, don’t sleep on the cold plunge.com because they’re actually still making one of the best ones out there. I, I never got paid from those guys, but I did get stuff and I do love, I really love that stuff.

[01:10:28] Chase: But, um. There’s philosophy that I keep dropping mm-hmm. Through talking about a product like that, or the sauna, or the cold plunge, or wandered bags, or peak design or pact. One of my favorites of all time, which is like, in order for me to express why this is just as interesting to me as that, like nomadic, super techie, cool looking one.

[01:10:50] Chase: Mm-hmm. Like to, you know, like, like that one look, you all the techie, the Star Wars dudes are like, yeah, I love that already, just without even talking about it. This one. They’re like, what do you mean? Like, what’s that? I’m like, let me tell you. Right. It opens clam. Shell look at these straps. Here’s this waterproof pocket here.

[01:11:06] Chase: Look at all this stuff that like, there’s a. There’s things that only start to speak to you when you’re on a journey with it. Right? The journey itself is what you have a travel bag for. That’s like, that’s the metaphor when you’re really, when I really started to take off, it was all these, what are called one bag travel backpacks, where you travel without a roller bag.

[01:11:26] Chase: Mm-hmm. Everything’s on your back. It can fit under the seat in front of you. Best case scenario. So you can be the last person on the plane. Um, and you know, you get that international flight and you’re, you wake up in fricking Prague or Denmark or Milano or something and you’re just like, I. I guess I’m, I guess I’m doing this now, like the, the day just begins,

[01:11:49] Nathan: but also I have everything that I need.

[01:11:51] Chase: You have everything that you need. Mm-hmm. You’re walking through cobblestone streets, which is a real bitch with a roller bag. You’re in Barcelona. We’re like, I didn’t know there was a beach here. It’s like, I’m not, I’m not gonna take this roller bag out to the, out to the sand. Right. It was such a different vibe mm-hmm.

[01:12:08] Chase: Of doing things, and I was always a traveler. I met my, my wife who now were separated, but like, uh, on a trip in Europe right after college, you know, a several month trip. And then I got a visa and went and lived out in Dublin and, and did the whole thing. I was always like a, like once, once I started traveling I was like, oh, this is a part of me.

[01:12:26] Chase: Different old places like Europe felt great. The point being I’m dropping philosophy of that second ski in that first it’s a second ski strategy in a first ski context.

[01:12:41] Nathan: Oh, man. But you said something about that that stood out to me when we were talking earlier about the bag. Like it being what you carry with you

[01:12:51] Chase: Yeah.

[01:12:51] Nathan: On the journey.

[01:12:52] Chase: Yeah. My favorite, my favorite thing to review these days is the everyday carryback fact. Mm-hmm. Like that troubadour and because, you know, some of my favorites are the simplest in the world. Mm-hmm. They got like a YKK injection, molded zipper, and it just, and the shape of it just feels so fucking good.

[01:13:07] Chase: And then there’s just a 3D moldy molded pocket, like basic old school jansport school bag. Right. God, I love that. I love that. But it’s a little elevated ’cause I’m talking about like the brown buffalo conceal, right. Or um, or something that like, you know, wandered has a new thing that I haven’t even played with yet, but I got it and I was like, uh, it starts with an NI can’t remember what, what?

[01:13:27] Chase: And it was like. Okay. Wondered. Alright. Because they’ve been making the provoke for like a billion years and it’s amazing back. I know this is a little inside baseball, just go with it because like five dudes are like, yep, yep. That one. Yep. I know, I know, right. You know, but there’s that everyday carry.

[01:13:46] Chase: Mm-hmm. Product is so interesting because as creatives and entrepreneurs, we live out of our bags. We’re going back, we’re like a laptop culture. I really like, I’m always trying to carry as minimal as possible, but there’s some things that I need, like I have these. These focal bey headphones, which are the best, like just spend the extra a hundred dollars and get these.

[01:14:09] Chase: ’cause they’re the best of the best. Okay. They just feel incredible. They sound amazing. The noise canceling is fricking great, but they’re spacey, they’re big, you know, so I gotta, I know I’m carrying those ’cause I’ve already, I’ve already got a relationship with that product. I have a relationship with my brother’s old, uh, battery that has like the USBC and the USB Mini and the Lightning, even though I don’t use, I only use, use USBC.

[01:14:33] Chase: Right. Uh, I have the, it just has a Keep Tahoe blue sticker on. It’s always in my bag. I use my studio, neat book notebook, which is a different form factor and I just, I love it. I can’t get enough of it. Why? What was that?

[01:14:46] Nathan: So the thing that, that stood out to me when you said that of you’re going on a journey and it’s what you carry with you mm-hmm.

[01:14:53] Nathan: That I think shapes the journey. Mm-hmm. And I think about that from a. From an emotional perspective.

[01:14:58] Chase: Mm-hmm.

[01:14:59] Nathan: Not about the gear at all.

[01:15:00] Chase: Totally.

[01:15:01] Nathan: But like,

[01:15:01] Chase: yeah.

[01:15:02] Nathan: Uh, you know, say, imagine that Barcelona, there’s opportunity to go, there’s a beach here, all of that, but you’ve got your suitcase with you. Oh, I guess we’re not gonna, we’re not gonna go spend two hours in the beach and join.

[01:15:13] Nathan: It’s

[01:15:13] Chase: like, yeah. Because we’ve got two hours to kill before the train or whatever.

[01:15:16] Nathan: Yeah. You know, everything has to sell. I don’t wanna

[01:15:17] Chase: get sand in my wheels because you don’t.

[01:15:20] Nathan: It would suck. And so what, like the emotional baggage Yeah. That you carry with you on this journey of your life and business and relationships and everything else.

[01:15:29] Nathan: Like if you can. Be thoughtful about each thing. Yeah. Whether it’s like, oh, my, my dad was disappointed in me for this thing, and so now I have to always do it this way. Yeah, yeah. And now I’m gonna carry this with me. And so I can’t go have this experience, I can’t pursue this dream.

[01:15:44] Chase: Right. Or are even like, like, what am I looking for?

[01:15:49] Chase: Mm-hmm. Right? Like, what am I still searching for and seeking? Am I gonna find it in Milan? Am I gonna find it in Prague? Is it, was it her? Is it that meetup? The WordPress fricking meetup at some pub in Berlin? Right. Was it, where am, what am I looking for? Mm-hmm. And travel was so great to be like, oh, there’s this, and oh, there’s that, and oh, there’s this.

[01:16:12] Chase: And now again, 43 hormonally, it’s a little more like, okay, the compass is turning inside and it’s like. And also the, all of the psychotherapy is very clear on this, like mm-hmm. You’re gonna generate your own, meaning you are gonna generate your, they call it reparenting, right? You are going to reparent yourself and give yourself the love that you needed and didn’t get, because that ache is controlling your life.

[01:16:35] Chase: Mm-hmm. And it’s not teaching you how to fulfill it. It’s just getting, it’s like more, maybe this, maybe that, maybe this, maybe that maybe over here. ’cause you don’t actually, that doesn’t, it doesn’t even wanna be fulfilled.

[01:16:44] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[01:16:45] Chase: It doesn’t know. You don’t know how to get into the. Texture of fulfillment.

[01:16:50] Chase: So baggage. What do we carry with us? I carry that panel book from studio Neat. Because that’s where those kinds of notes go. Where I’m using their mark one pen. ’cause it’s juicy and there’s no fricking label on it or anything. And it’s got an all metal click mechanism. Make them bury. Okay. And their kids are gonna fight over it when you’re dead.

[01:17:08] Chase: And it uses my favorite pen refill and I’m writing in there in this weird shaped paper because it’s slowing me down. Enough to maybe notice that I’m satisfied that like fucking gelato in Italy was absolutely worth the price of admission. Or, um, you know, a fricking cross all at like the wicker chairs at the cafes in Paris and this, and just like the vibe of the city or the, the road trip through the countryside in France.

[01:17:41] Chase: It’s like. Am I satisfied now? Am I satisfied now? What do I need? What in this moment is lacking and slowly over time, like the bag gets lighter.

[01:17:52] Nathan: Yeah. Do

[01:17:52] Chase: you know what I mean? You need less. It’s like, oh, I didn’t have, you know, I didn’t. I forgot my fucking toothpaste. I can’t believe it. Well, good news is there’s a, the equivalent of a CVS everywhere you go everywhere, right?

[01:18:06] Chase: Yeah. That mode of travel starts to be less about what I carry with me and more about how I am in the journey. Right. How’s that for a metaphor?

[01:18:16] Nathan: I like it. I like it.

[01:18:17] Chase: Yeah.

[01:18:17] Nathan: Well, the last thing

[01:18:18] Chase: Yeah,

[01:18:19] Nathan: that I want to touch on is I’ve seen you go from this focus on. Big audiences and reaching lots and lots of people mm-hmm.

[01:18:26] Nathan: To small groups.

[01:18:27] Chase: Mm-hmm.

[01:18:28] Nathan: And being in person, being intentional with people. Yeah. And like going so much deeper in relationships.

[01:18:33] Chase: Yeah.

[01:18:33] Nathan: Like tell me about that journey and how are you spending your time Yeah. In these men’s groups.

[01:18:37] Chase: Well, it’s the best dude because we don’t know how to, we don’t know how to one to many, most of us don’t know how to one to many.

[01:18:43] Chase: Every once in a while you meet people who are like professional stage people and they know how to one to many and you’re a little bit like, oh, okay. Like,

[01:18:48] Nathan: you know,

[01:18:49] Chase: you’re, you’re not even you until you’re up there. Got it. Like, right. And you don’t even really have access to them Here. They’re like, no, no, I have a family dude, I don’t need you.

[01:18:55] Chase: You’re like, okay, got it. Do your thing.

[01:18:57] Nathan: Yeah.

[01:18:57] Chase: But most of us. That back to that idea of like, what am I seeking? Mm-hmm. What am I, what is what in this moment is lacking? It is exactly to your point on, you know, what did we, what did we call that key word for you? This is what ma, why this matters to me. What was the field notes called?

[01:19:14] Chase: I can’t remember now.

[01:19:15] Nathan: Oh, I’m not

[01:19:16] Chase: sure. But like, what it’s like what I think of this exactly. To the same point on that, Nathan, where it’s like, I wanna be seen a little bit more.

[01:19:22] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[01:19:22] Chase: I wanna be witnessed. Here’s one thing I’ve realized in these small groups is healing requires a witness. Mm-hmm. It doesn’t require it necessarily, I mean, might not, but I’ve found that, um, like in men’s groups that I’m hosting, man shows up.

[01:19:36] Chase: We create a space of security, safety. Yeah. And, and v it starts to deepen. Mm-hmm. The space starts to deepen, which happens really naturally. Vulnerability starts to be expressed and just the witnessing, this guy is not my responsibility. He’s not yours either. Mm-hmm. None of us are responsible for his life.

[01:19:53] Chase: It’s his life.

[01:19:54] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[01:19:54] Chase: Right. He’s not responsible for mine. It’s my life when I’m sharing. It’s like you’re not responsible for my life. It’s, it’s, it’s mine. Witnessing where I’m at was started to become like this like thing where it was actual intimacy, I guess, for lack of a better term. It’s, it’s intimacy.

[01:20:11] Chase: I’m being seen and it’s fine. And it’s not like, oh my God, I love you and you’re the best. Right? And it’s not like, Ugh, what a fucking piece of crap. Right? It’s neutral. That space is more scary. I’m less reactive. I want to find some place to bounce off from what I’m doing, just to the same point of like the being in a little bit more of the chaos and the karaoke and normalizing that in our system, what I’m doing, normalizing reality, that’s what we need.

[01:20:43] Chase: I, from a young age was alone in my room, like creating my own little world. And it was like, interfacing with reality was like dodgy. It was like, it was, I don’t know. It was, it was suspect at best, you know? And I wanna be, in reality, in my relationship with, with my lover, I wanna be, in reality and my relationship with my kids, I wanna be, in reality, my relationship with my customers and clients and, and the internet at large.

[01:21:08] Chase: I wanna be in reality and I wanna help people get into reality. So I find that in smaller groups, and yeah, I do one-on-one work too, but like, the group dynamic itself becomes this like sort of energetic, uh, spaceship that like we can go places with, we can do stuff with. And ultimately, I think of it like a car wash.

[01:21:28] Chase: You come in one end and you go out the other. ’cause what matters is not what, this is what matters is you’re, you’re going back to your wife, your kids, your business, your career, your like, like this. Lemme talk to the men for a second. You know, men have gotten a lot of shit. It’s like a lot of the roles have changed.

[01:21:47] Chase: A lot of the, the experiences and the expectations have shifted. We’re all still trying to figure that out. But we’ll absolutely be holding the world together or a part of holding the world together. And we carry a lot on our backs and we’ve gotta connect with each other in ways where it’s not just sports and booze.

[01:22:02] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[01:22:03] Chase: Where it’s also like, I see what you’re carrying. Yeah. That’s cool. It was a good job. Like, yeah, I hope you keep going. You know, if you don’t, no worries. Right. And it’s like there’s something that we can do with each other. And so like on Instagram I have this like, trend on stories where it’s just join a men’s group, JAMG.

[01:22:21] Chase: And it’s just these funny videos that I find and it’s just JAMG join a men’s group. And it’s either reasons why you should, or reasons why, why this guy needed it or like whatever. Um, ’cause I just want to normalize the idea that like, guys can get together, uh, in smaller groups, bring a little intention, which is not necessarily comfortable.

[01:22:44] Chase: Mm-hmm. But like, once you get into it, then it starts to get kinda lame when someone’s coming and being a performative little Turkey. Right. You know, you’re just like, all right, settle down. Fucking Charles. You know, I can’t feel your heart at all. Right. And what you’re steering by the way, you know, good performance because, uh, like these guys in my men’s groups.

[01:23:03] Chase: That I’m just a part of. Like they walked me through divorce. Mm-hmm. I walked them through finding the woman that they asked to marry, uh, where our kids have all grown up together. Like, there’s just so much life you end up walking each other through accidentally once every three weeks. Right. But that amortized over three plus years ends up being super valuable.

[01:23:25] Chase: Um, so that’s why I am like, join a men’s group. Mm-hmm. Like join a men’s group and if you don’t have one, like come to one of my retreats. Mm-hmm. I work with a guy named David Sutcliffe right now, who was the best group facilitator I’ve ever seen. He was the, he was the dad on Gilmore Girls, by the way.

[01:23:40] Chase: Okay. He was like an actor in LA for a long time. And just the, one of the best I’ve seen in the, in the room, my buddy Dan Tini, who I was with yesterday, who lives here in Boise, who I was telling you about. Yeah. Does like all this negotiation. Another one of those guys that was just like, the best in the room.

[01:23:55] Chase: So I’m hosting things at my house that are, that are deep.

[01:23:58] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[01:23:58] Chase: Um, and then I’m also starting to host like kind of a oh 1, 0 1, like I’m men’s activation, where it’s just like, all right, here’s the basics of the nervous system. Mm-hmm. We’re gonna do some sonic cold plunge, we’re gonna talk about our fucking feelings and I’m gonna show you they can be cool.

[01:24:11] Chase: We’re also gonna do these experiences where you’re gonna, you’re gonna see yourself mm-hmm. Reflected back from someone else who doesn’t know you. It’s another thing about this where it’s like, especially when you don’t, you, there’s a like a, a debate. Do I go like with my buddies? Or do I go where I don’t know anybody.

[01:24:27] Nathan: Right.

[01:24:28] Chase: And there’s so much value. I think you were talking about this at the, when you were talking with your coach about the reboot uhhuh thing as well. Maybe in something like it, but just that, like that walk down back

[01:24:38] Nathan: Yeah.

[01:24:38] Chase: You know, with somebody you don’t really know about, like the place in your life that you’re in.

[01:24:43] Chase: Mm-hmm. Right. That can be wildly effective at getting us to come to terms with where we are. ’cause I noticed in myself, I just didn’t wanna see it. It made me feel like a failure. It made me feel like something’s wrong with me. Mm-hmm. And it was being witnessed again and again over time. Like I could still feel the feeling of it, like the scared in me, you know?

[01:25:06] Nathan: Well, you said the word intimacy. Yeah. And uh, someone explained it to me once as into me, you see?

[01:25:13] Chase: Yeah. Yeah.

[01:25:13] Nathan: And I like that. Yeah. Of just like being with people who can see what you’re going through. Who,

[01:25:18] Chase: yeah.

[01:25:19] Nathan: Who can truly. Um, I just bring it to another, like, another layer of depth.

[01:25:25] Chase: Yeah. Terry Reel is this great therapist, uh, guy.

[01:25:28] Chase: Like when, uh, Esther Perel needs relationship coaching Uhhuh, she goes to Terry reel.

[01:25:33] Nathan: Okay.

[01:25:34] Chase: Okay. Um, that’s

[01:25:35] Nathan: a good marketing line.

[01:25:37] Chase: Yeah. Yeah. It reminds me of when, like this Dr. Jack Cruz was on Tetragrammaton, which is Rick Rubin’s podcast. Mm-hmm. The only, it’s, it’s Jack Cruz, Andrew Huberman, and Rick Rubin.

[01:25:48] Chase: And the only thing Rick Rubin does to open the conversation is he ask Jack, ask Jack Cruz, how many brain surgeries have you done? And he goes over 10,000 and the conversation off, and Jack Cruz is yelling at Andrew Huberman the entire time and Huberman is like, okay, no, I get it. I can see what you’re saying.

[01:26:04] Chase: There’s fucking bonkers his dickhead jack. Anyways, completely, completely separate, but like, yeah. When Esther Perel needs coaching and relationship becomes to Terry Real, and he says, for those of us who are, have like a addictive tendencies or addicts of some kind, um, the cure to addiction is intimacy and that’s a fascinating idea.

[01:26:25] Chase: Mm-hmm. The cure to the striving and the never enoughness and all of that is intimacy. And I will say from my experience, initial experiences with intimacy were dis was actually the feeling of disappointment. Like Trump Barbae says, uh, enlightenment is the last great disappointment. And I just think that’s a fascinating idea.

[01:26:50] Chase: Right. Sometimes it doesn’t look how we expect it or want it to. We, we hear the word intimacy and we think it looks like melting into. Mm-hmm. But it might have more, actually I’m standing here individuated, but I’m in relationship

[01:27:03] Nathan: mm-hmm.

[01:27:04] Chase: Than we expected. It might be different than we expected. Right. So that’s why over time with a group.

[01:27:13] Chase: That kind of experience can get a little bit more normalized and then you can start to feel that with your partner. ’cause Nathan Barry, back in the napkin math, you wanna change the fucking world. You affect the relationship between a committed monogamous couple of whatever sex and gender that are raising kids.

[01:27:28] Chase: Because what that’s doing is that’s creating an environment that those kids are living in. Mm-hmm. It’s shaping the worldview and the reality for those kids within one gener, within like, you know, 40 years, you’ve changed multiple generations. If you can, you can make aliveness, which comes from being able to tell the truth and it being okay to be me here.

[01:27:45] Chase: Mm-hmm. With you. And it’s okay for you to be you here. ’cause then we can figure this out over time. Thanks for coming to my Ted talk, bro.

[01:27:52] Nathan: I like it. I like it. Uh, maybe a final thing that maybe wrapping all of this together, I’m very curious of what success looks like to you.

[01:28:04] Chase: What I used to imagine for success was just people paying attention to me and liking me and, and fitting.

[01:28:10] Nathan: Yep.

[01:28:11] Chase: Now it’s like me liking me and I, ironically, it’s so classic. Uh, what I needed for that was integrity. I didn’t need to be a better artist. I didn’t need to be more creative or take more risks or whatever. I just needed to know what I was committed to. And, uh, that is like a vibe, integrity’s a fucking vibe.

[01:28:36] Chase: Um, success is like liking me for sure. Um, and, uh, you know, a huge, a huge part of that is, is like, um, touching into and feeling the, the feelings that I didn’t know how to feel. Like I just turned myself off of like, there was a whole, whole parts of my inner experience that I was, even though I was deep meditator, very experienced in lots of modalities, all the psychedelics, all the things like that.

[01:29:05] Chase: It’s like inner child work. Mm-hmm. And touching into. Relating to this 4-year-old, 7-year-old, 11-year-old, 22-year-old, all these different experiences with Kimmy in Austin, Texas at Kuya. Go see Kimmy where something started to happen, where I started to love this young me, I started to love, love this guy.

[01:29:25] Chase: ’cause every time I connected to him and I’d, I’d, I’d sense into like, what is he wanting? He just wanted somebody there to attune to him and just like for him to be okay to sense like he was, he was okay. Um, and I, I’ll be damned if I don’t see that in just about everybody I see out there, you know, ironically the integrity and then the, like, loving into myself, those were available this entire time.

[01:29:50] Chase: Nathan Berry, like those books, I read those books 15, 20 years ago. You know, it didn’t click, it didn’t click. But now there’s such a richness in those, the, the emotional texture of that, that is, oh God, it’s nourishing. Mm-hmm. And it feels great. I’m still scared. I’m scared of. I’m scared of, of going into relationship again and being, being hurt, you know?

[01:30:17] Chase: Um, but I’m like. I’m with that fear of abandonment in a way that I, that I wasn’t before, I would’ve just bounced right off of it and gone done Big performance guy and try to like, get her to like me and still be like, mm-hmm. You know, BA I’m, bam, I’m a bamboozle. You know, it takes about two hours. I don’t know how you’ve been in here to, like, a therapist needs to talk to me for about two hours before I’m like down right in the substrate.

[01:30:40] Chase: Like, okay, we can just fucking hang out from here. So, uh, that’s my definition of success, I think is just liking me. But, and yeah, ’cause for me, liking me, uh, it, because I put myself on a, on a, both, on a pedestal and I beat the shit outta myself. Mm-hmm. Right? Like, I expect the highest

[01:30:57] Nathan: standards.

[01:30:58] Chase: I expect very great things of myself.

[01:31:00] Chase: I, I’ve worked with the, some of the best coaches, mentors and shamans and guides and artists out there I’ve paid attention to and studied like. Like legit studied the best comedians and artists and auteurs and filmmakers and all this stuff. Like in a way where I’m like, no, I see what they’re doing. Like I get it.

[01:31:17] Chase: Like I get it. And um, and so like the expectations are really high for myself in the face of all of that to just go like, oh yeah, but you know, it’s, you know, it’s even better. This is just liking me. It’s a very

[01:31:33] Nathan: simple answer and it’s a like a very deep answer simultaneously.

[01:31:37] Chase: Yeah. It’s so strange how, how that’s exactly the depth I was looking for and I was looking everywhere.

[01:31:43] Nathan: Yeah. Oh man, there’s so many things I’m taking away from this conversation. I’m just thinking about bringing an element of play mm-hmm. In, uh, the karaoke. Mm-hmm. McCury that, that terrifies me a little bit, you know? Yeah. Which points to, for me, like a, an aspect of, um, like wanting to seem put together, not wanting to fail on a public stage.

[01:32:02] Nathan: Yeah. That sort of thing. Yeah. And so everything, which is

[01:32:04] Chase: so relatable, by the way, of course.

[01:32:07] Nathan: And so everything that I put out there goes through an editor in some way. Right? If I’m like, Ooh, that was garbage. You know, clap make, make my vosser after sound. Yeah. You know, whatever, cut it out. Um, and so, you know, you do things in a public stage, um, or like the entertainment side, I’m like, Ooh, that, what if it’s not entertaining?

[01:32:25] Nathan: What if I fail? You know, or that sort of thing. So finding, like chasing my curiosity, finding things that, uh, challenge me. I, I don’t think I’ve sat down to like, learn a new skill in quite a while. And so that was interesting. I’m like, oh, what, what if I were to do that and to document, what

[01:32:38] Chase: would you learn if you were gonna learn something right now?

[01:32:41] Nathan: I’d be singing.

[01:32:43] Chase: That was so quick.

[01:32:44] Nathan: Yeah. So a question that I like is, uh, you know, if you, if you could like, snap your fingers or wave a magic wand and like acquire a new skill, um, that would be something where I think of it fully. I tend to think of, I, I think as humans we, we bucket things in terms of, um, I.

[01:33:01] Nathan: Like what you can only be, you can only be great at, with like natural ability

[01:33:06] Chase: mm-hmm.

[01:33:06] Nathan: Versus what, uh, you could acquire with deliberate practice.

[01:33:09] Chase: Mm-hmm.

[01:33:09] Nathan: So for me, like, um, design, video editing, all this like deliberate practice, like show up, put in the reps, all of that.

[01:33:16] Chase: Yeah.

[01:33:16] Nathan: You get it. Um, now math, any, any of those things fall into that bucket for me?

[01:33:23] Nathan: I think like, uh, playing an instrument. Mm-hmm. Probably in that bucket. Mm-hmm. But like singing and vocals and all of that would be like, oh, you gotta be,

[01:33:30] Chase: yeah.

[01:33:30] Nathan: Has to be an innate talent.

[01:33:31] Chase: Yeah.

[01:33:32] Nathan: My wife is the other, she’s like, whatcha are you talking about? That is absolutely a skill you can learn. You know, like, yeah.

[01:33:35] Nathan: She’s a different life experience. One thing that I believe is a parent, your job is to help your kids give them a taste of as many things as possible. Yeah. So they move it from the bucket of like, oh, I could only do that if I had innate talent.

[01:33:46] Chase: Right.

[01:33:46] Nathan: Right. Into the mental bucket of if I wanted to. I could acquire that skill and I could do it over time.

[01:33:52] Chase: Yeah.

[01:33:53] Nathan: But yeah, like I think, uh, music and singing would be the

[01:33:56] Chase: That was so quick, Nathan. Yeah. You know, you like kind of over owe it to yourself. And also there’s nothing more like connected and holy than the actual experience of, of your own voice.

[01:34:06] Nathan: Yeah.

[01:34:07] Chase: Right.

[01:34:07] Nathan: And for me, it’d be the, like, it’s something that’s so, uh, important to my wife.

[01:34:11] Nathan: Like, she loves music and she loves, you know, she’s in jazz choir. She’s, you know, all that stuff

[01:34:15] too.

[01:34:15] Chase: S singing Harmony is a vibe dude. Yeah. Is a vibe. It’s great. Okay. I’m gonna hold you to that a little bit. Yeah.

[01:34:21] Nathan: There you go. Now I gotta be

[01:34:22] Chase: careful. There’s good, there’s like, there’s great coaches out there.

[01:34:24] Nathan: Yeah.

[01:34:25] Chase: There’s great vocal coaches and they have you do good warmups and exercises and things, just to get you a sense of it. Like, this is a well known thing about how to teach this,

[01:34:34] Nathan: but I think for me, if I think about personal development, right? There’s the skills that are, would be interesting to acquire next of like, maybe it’s like, uh.

[01:34:44] Nathan: You know, you’re like, oh, I’m gonna learn to be great at AI with this thing, and there’s a bunch of skills there. Or for me, another one would be art.

[01:34:51] Chase: Mm-hmm.

[01:34:51] Nathan: Right? Like, I’m at one point was okay at drawing mm-hmm. To be great at that. My friend, um, Kevin Esperino, uh, who runs a, uh, a blog YouTube channel called Epic Gardening.

[01:35:02] Chase: Mm-hmm.

[01:35:02] Nathan: He took the last nine months and he is like, look, I’m just going become good at drawing. And he went from being like, not good to very, very good in nine months way and documented it. And, but like that’s a very achievable thing. Like, I, I have enough of that.

[01:35:15] Chase: Yeah. Yeah.

[01:35:15] Nathan: That I’m like, okay, I know I could do that.

[01:35:17] Nathan: Yeah.

[01:35:17] Chase: Yeah.

[01:35:17] Nathan: If I set aside the time, but something like, uh, I would say like dance or,

[01:35:22] Chase: yeah.

[01:35:22] Nathan: Singing Uhhuh is like, oh, that’s actually a little like the curiosity Yeah. Is here and the fear is here.

[01:35:29] Chase: I’ll guarantee you that you do the, you do, like, you hire a coach trainer on the vo voice thing and do the, like the, uh, notebook sort of some of that notebook content.

[01:35:40] Chase: Yeah. Um, you’re gonna. You’re gonna feel more expressed.

[01:35:44] Nathan: Right?

[01:35:44] Chase: Right. Yeah. You’re gonna feel a lot more expressed, which is mm-hmm. I think it’s just something that we all want, especially like you’re living at the top of, of like, like of, at such a high level. Mm-hmm. Right. And you’re not feeling fully expressed.

[01:35:58] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[01:35:58] Chase: You’re not feeling fully alive in some ways. Like you can feel the, like the itch or like the interest in that. Like follow, follow some of that. Yeah. And that’s the best thing about, like, you could just hire a coach to

[01:36:09] Nathan: Right.

[01:36:09] Chase: To do that. Right. You could just like tell some of your people, like, this is important to me.

[01:36:14] Chase: I want you to keep me on task with this. So now I have to keep with field notes in my pocket.

[01:36:18] Nathan: Right.

[01:36:18] Chase: You know, although the, although the studio neat ones a little bit better. Or tote book mini.

[01:36:22] Nathan: Okay. We’ll get that in there. Well, there’s been so many good things in here. Thanks for the. I think, yeah, thanks for the most chaotic conversation I’ve ever had on this podcast.

[01:36:33] Chase: My favorite part was it’s a two ski approach and a single ski. It’s a second ski approach and a single ski context.

[01:36:41] Nathan: So if people want this level of chaos from you on a more regular basis, where should they go on the internet to get more Chase Reeves in their

[01:36:47] Chase: life? Um, you know, most of it, it used to be my whole internet presence was very chaotic, and now it’s very cultured and curated.

[01:36:54] Chase: So, but like my YouTube channel and my Instagram, that’s where, that’s, that’s where I live.

[01:36:58] Why

[01:36:58] Nathan: should people search just your name, chase

[01:37:00] Chase: Reeves? Yeah, chase Reeves, Bozeman, chase w Reeves on everything basically.

[01:37:05] Nathan: That sounds good.

[01:37:06] Chase: Yeah.

[01:37:07] Nathan: Thanks so much for coming on.

[01:37:08] Chase: Thanks, Nathan.

[00:00:00] Simon: What is a successful life for you? If you could take away all of these external metrics, when you know what fulfillment looks and feels like for you, that awakens one of the greatest energetic sources within us.

[00:00:10] Nathan: Simon Alexander Ong is the author of Energize a bestselling book on energy and performance.

[00:00:15] Nathan: He works with leaders and creators around the world who want to perform at a high level

[00:00:19] Simon: energy. I see it through four dimensions, physical, mental, emotional, and spiritual. In many cases, when we think about energy, we only focus on the physical and mental energy is all about your mindset. Emotional energy is all about relationships, and spiritual energy is all about meaning and purpose.

[00:00:33] Nathan: Simon’s work focuses on energy as what’s underneath productivity, creativity, and leadership.

[00:00:38] Simon: Difference between energy management and time management is that time management assumes your energy’s constant fat, entire. Energy management appreciates that. It fluctuates throughout the day.

[00:00:48] Nathan: We also talk about one of my favorite topics, which is showing up consistently and how you can build a way of working that’s sustainable in the long run.

[00:00:56] Nathan: What do you see that stops people from taking action?

[00:00:59] Simon: I think there are three things. First, two, fear and self-doubt. And the third is,

[00:01:04] Nathan: oh, I love that.

[00:01:09] Nathan: Simon. How long have you been a creator?

[00:01:12] Simon: Interesting question because I’ve never really considered myself a creator.

[00:01:15] Nathan: Okay.

[00:01:16] Simon: Uh, people have labeled part of what I do as being a creator because I have a YouTube channel. I post on platforms like LinkedIn and Instagram.

[00:01:23] Nathan: You’ve written a book?

[00:01:24] Simon: I’ve written a book, and I, I think in a way, we’re all creators because you can’t not build a business today without creating some form of content.

[00:01:32] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:01:33] Simon: And I think creators just today’s buzzword for describing Right. What we all have to do in terms of building and growing a business.

[00:01:40] Nathan: Yeah. Yeah. That makes sense. Okay. So how long have you not been a, no, I’m just kidding. Um, so before you came into this world of, of teaching and sharing these stories and talking about energy and all of that,

[00:01:53] Simon: yeah.

[00:01:53] Nathan: Where were you before in business?

[00:01:55] Simon: So, I grew, I grew up with this mistaken belief that to be successful in life, you had to earn a certain job title.

[00:02:02] Nathan: Okay.

[00:02:02] Simon: So when I was a teenager, I remember speaking to my dad and my dad looks like the Dalai Lama. So I thought this will be quite a wise conversation. I remember sitting down with him at the dinner table and I asked him, so when I finish college.

[00:02:14] Simon: What would be deemed as a successful career? And he said, well, Simon, if you become a banker, a lawyer, a doctor, or an accountant, I think you would’ve earned a reputable career. And so seduced by films like Wall Street and Boiler Room and the like. I decided to pursue a career in finance.

[00:02:31] Nathan: Yeah, you strike me as a finance guy.

[00:02:33] Nathan: Not

[00:02:33] Simon: at all. At the worst possible time. Actually, this was the middle of 2007. Mm-hmm. A year before the global financial crisis swept across the planet. And just to make things a little interesting, the company I started as a graduate with was Lehman Brothers.

[00:02:46] Nathan: Oh yeah.

[00:02:46] Simon: Wow. Which collapsed 14 months after I joined.

[00:02:48] Nathan: Right.

[00:02:49] Simon: Nothing to do with me, by the way.

[00:02:50] Nathan: Correlation, causation, there’s no way to know

[00:02:53] Simon: indeed. But for me, I always say that was, even though it was really difficult and challenging at the time, yeah. It was a blessing in disguise because for me it kickstarted what I believe is the longest journey we as humans make, which are the interests from our heads to our hearts.

[00:03:08] Simon: Never an easy journey, but the most important and fulfilling that we will ever take. About eight years later, I quit the industry and decided I wanted to run my own business. I, I was really into the psychology of personal development, understanding what made people, uh, show up and achieve the success they did.

[00:03:27] Simon: And so that led me to the coaching industry. And one thing just led to another, I started coaching people. Coaching, then led to speaking. Speaking then led to doing a lot of interviews. And then that led to landing a book. There were penguin

[00:03:38] Nathan: right

[00:03:38] Simon: in 2020, just as the world was entering its first lockdown.

[00:03:42] Nathan: You tend to make these big pivots. It seems like right before global, global things happen again, correlation, causation, I’m not, um, so coming from, I think the intersection of, of finance and that background is really interesting is then you get into the world of coaching. ’cause you Yeah. You, you have this analytical side to you.

[00:04:00] Simon: Mm-hmm.

[00:04:01] Nathan: But then also everything that I hear you talk about in your content and your book and all of this Right. Is so heart focused.

[00:04:08] Simon: Yeah.

[00:04:09] Nathan: Um, what’s the relationship between those two for you?

[00:04:13] Simon: There’s a, the relationship is that we listen to both our heart and our mind.

[00:04:18] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:04:19] Simon: The heart knows where you need to be, but often the mind steps in and overwrites it.

[00:04:25] Simon: So let’s say your heart is pulling into a certain direction. The mind then jumps in and analyzes every possible outcome. Is this really what I want to do? Am I gonna succeed in this? And it’s why so often people aren’t where they want to be in life. We talk ourself out of the journey. Before it’s even started thinking about scenarios that may or may not even happen.

[00:04:45] Simon: But what we come to realize, or at least I did as I began in this journey, is that we live in the feeling of our thinking moment to moment to moment. Okay? So your life is essentially what you choose to see. If you choose to see failure, if you choose to see setbacks, if you choose to see why it can’t be done, your mind will go up and find reasons for it.

[00:05:06] Simon: But if you see possibility, if you see potential, if you see that there could be a way forward. Your mind will go out and find it. So you’re just sending instructions to your mind all the time. But it’s the awareness to know that that is what’s causing your reality to be the way it is.

[00:05:22] Nathan: My background is in computer programming.

[00:05:24] Nathan: Mm-hmm. And that sounds like you had having one program running and then choosing to say, you know what? We’re gonna change some code and we’re gonna reprogram this. Is there an example where you were able to reprogram yourself and like choose to see something different and had then have a different life experience because of it?

[00:05:42] Simon: Absolutely. So one of the things we can’t avoid in today’s world is logging onto social media. And looking at what everyone around us is doing. And so the trap that I used to be in is I would look at what everybody else was doing and I kept comparing myself to them.

[00:05:56] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:05:57] Simon: I was thinking, well, they achieved this amount of success because they had certain resources, they had the right network.

[00:06:03] Simon: And if I continued to choose that line of thought, I would never have started in, in terms of my journey to what I get to do today. But what I learned is a simple reframe that instead of looking at others for comparison, look at others for inspiration.

[00:06:17] Nathan: Mm.

[00:06:17] Simon: So instead of saying, well, why can’t I do, how come they’ve got there?

[00:06:20] Simon: They’re just lucky.

[00:06:21] Nathan: Right.

[00:06:22] Simon: Ask yourself, what can I learn from how they’ve got there? What can I learn from how they’re doing, what they’re doing? And then how can I just start testing? How can I start experimenting and see what works and what doesn’t? So I find my own path forwards. Mm-hmm. And ultimately, the only person we should be comparing ourselves to is who we were yesterday.

[00:06:42] Nathan: Okay.

[00:06:42] Simon: If we are constantly better than who we were yesterday. Eventually we get to reap the rewards.

[00:06:47] Nathan: Mm-hmm. So was there someone specific that you were comparing yourself to that you then shifted?

[00:06:54] Simon: I think just everyone ahead of me.

[00:06:55] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:06:55] Simon: J just a, a, a. As soon as I got into this industry

[00:06:58] Nathan: mm-hmm.

[00:06:58] Simon: I was just following lots of people doing incredible things and I was just consume, consume, and consume.

[00:07:05] Simon: But then I realized that WW when it comes to social media, especially. You have two choices because social media is just a tool. At the end of the day, you have the choice to just consume or you can use what’s available to create something, to create something of value. And that’s what I wanted to do. I wanted to start using it in a healthier way so I could grow not just my brand, but build awareness about what I did.

[00:07:28] Nathan: Mm-hmm. So what did that shift look like as you, you got into, what were the steps that you took to, to step into that creative role?

[00:07:34] Simon: So when I first started, it was just me going to networking events, speaking to people, giving people experience of what coaching was like. And then on social media, what I started doing, which is documenting my speaking, it was showing people behind the scenes was giving people highlights of my speaking and just writing my thoughts onto articles, onto posts, uh, blogging at the time.

[00:07:53] Simon: Yeah, your blogging was the thing, uh, that was doing really well. That’s how people found out about your work. Uh, and then just trying to build a profile on, on these different platforms. And I found that over time, that’s how people came across my work. It wasn’t Google anymore. I mean, some people would still search, uh, looking for your work specifically, but people would go straight onto platforms like Instagram or YouTube or LinkedIn to learn about who you were.

[00:08:17] Simon: And then they would want to have a conversation and see whether they wanted to do business with you.

[00:08:20] Nathan: So something that you’ve talked about really a lot is energy.

[00:08:24] Simon: Mm-hmm.

[00:08:25] Nathan: And the reason I ask how long you’ve been a creator is I’m curious about how you are, you sustain that energy over a long period of time.

[00:08:33] Nathan: Because something that I see so many creators do is burnout pretty quickly. And they might get to a tiny fraction of the reach that they hope to

[00:08:42] Simon: mm-hmm.

[00:08:42] Nathan: Because they burn out after six months Yeah. Or two years or that sort of thing. And I’m now at 14 years

[00:08:50] Simon: mm-hmm.

[00:08:50] Nathan: In the creator industry. I think plenty of other people are at, you know, five years before they get traction or all of this.

[00:08:57] Nathan: And so. When it relates to creators and, and burnout and their energy, like what do you see people getting wrong in both how they think about it and then the day-to-day actions that they take.

[00:09:06] Simon: For me, it boils down to consistency versus intensity.

[00:09:11] Nathan: Okay.

[00:09:12] Simon: We go hard.

[00:09:14] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:09:15] Simon: And when we don’t see results, we burn out.

[00:09:17] Nathan: Yeah. I,

[00:09:17] Simon: I, I mean, classic example is when we start a new year, lots of people have resolutions and they go very intense. So if you’ve never been to a gym that often before and you decide this is a year that health is gonna be my value, and you go three, four times a week. If you go from zero to that without slowly building and focusing on consistency, eventually you find out you can’t keep it up, you burn out and eventually you give up your gym membership.

[00:09:44] Simon: So the key is to focus on consistency over intensity. And so when you first start out, it’s understanding, well, what does that look like for me? So not to follow what other people are doing, but just say maybe once a week. Posting on social media might be my frequency.

[00:09:58] Nathan: Right.

[00:09:58] Simon: And then slowly build from there.

[00:10:00] Simon: Because the key is you wanna thrive, not just survive. And the only way to do that is to find a good rhythm that works for you. And we all come from different setups. You know, some people will have a team, you might be starting out on your own. Other people might be holding a holding down a day job as well.

[00:10:14] Simon: And so you’ve just gotta work out what is my rhythm that I can sustain over, over a long period.

[00:10:19] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:10:19] Simon: Knowing that something is always better than nothing.

[00:10:23] Nathan: Right. I mean, something that I, this is not a show focus on beginners, but something that I, I recommend for beginners is that they start with journaling Yeah.

[00:10:30] Nathan: Rather than actually posting. Mm-hmm. And so that the consistency that you build up is the consistency of logging your thoughts and ideas. Mm-hmm. And then once that exists, and then let’s get to a consistency of refining them and then maybe posting them. Right. And so you start with this much easier step.

[00:10:47] Simon: Well, I’m curious, what, what’s kept you going? You, you’ve mentioned you’ve been doing this for quite a while.

[00:10:52] Nathan: I mean, I, I truly love it.

[00:10:53] Simon: Mm.

[00:10:53] Nathan: Right. So it’s the people that. Uh, and the relationships that I have. Yeah. Um, I also think that you don’t truly understand an idea until you teach it. And that teaching is the biggest thing there.

[00:11:04] Nathan: There’s so many things, you know, I love money and finance mm-hmm. And, um, like the physics behind building wealth. And so something that I really enjoyed is trying to distill those principles down into something that I can teach. Yeah. Because they’ll be like, oh yeah. This is why it works that way. You know, SaaS companies have higher enterprise value than agencies, right?

[00:11:23] Nathan: Mm-hmm. It’s a, a standard thing, and someone’s like, why? I’m like, they just do. I don’t know. You know? But it’s, it’s not until you can teach it

[00:11:32] Simon: Yeah.

[00:11:32] Nathan: That you realize like, oh, do you really understand the physics behind it?

[00:11:35] Simon: And that’s also the power of teaching because I think when you teach something, you’re forced to really understand it.

[00:11:40] Simon: Mm-hmm. And also simplify it.

[00:11:42] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:11:42] Simon: How can you simplify it into frameworks or ways where people can get it immediately? And when you pass that knowledge on, that’s how we empower other people to also follow on the same journey. Yeah.

[00:11:52] Nathan: And I think for me it’s having a mission and a purpose

[00:11:57] Simon: Mm.

[00:11:57] Nathan: Of why you’re doing it.

[00:11:58] Nathan: So this is something that I keep trying to recenter the team at, at Kit around is our mission as a company is that we exist to help creators earn a living Yeah. And to build valuable businesses. And so I’ll keep going back to BA basically learning that making money is a skill

[00:12:13] Simon: Yeah.

[00:12:13] Nathan: Was a transformational thing for me, where I took something that was, uh, scarcity based and, and I, you know, watched my parents divorce over, like fighting over money and all of that and realizing like, okay, I wanna, I wanna a path to Yeah.

[00:12:27] Nathan: Like taking care of my family in a sustainable way, and then realizing that like, wait, making money is a skill. I can learn this thing. Yeah. And then achieving all of the goals that I had set out. And then basically going around to the world, like, do you understand this?

[00:12:40] Simon: Like,

[00:12:40] Nathan: does everybody know that? You know?

[00:12:42] Nathan: And so I felt like I had discovered like, the cheat code for a video game.

[00:12:46] Simon: Mm.

[00:12:46] Nathan: And I wanted to share that with everyone else.

[00:12:48] Simon: And, and that’s for me, what makes it energizing. You know, you go back earlier about how do we keep it energizing fr mm-hmm. The longevity of surviving as a creator. It’s how do, how do you treat it like a game?

[00:12:58] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:12:58] Simon: Because if you can see the journey as a game, it becomes far more fun and enjoyable. So each challenge you see, you treat it like an obstacle to get to the next level. Right. And when you get there, you energize to try and get to the next level and the next level. And then you’re working out, well, what are the cheat codes that are gonna help me break through to the next level?

[00:13:15] Simon: Uh, and then for me, that’s what, that’s what makes it so much fun. Yeah. Uh, as you go in without knowing what the outcome’s gonna be, but just to experiment and treat the journey like a game.

[00:13:24] Nathan: Something I think a lot about is stress.

[00:13:25] Simon: Mm-hmm.

[00:13:26] Nathan: And I have had times, you know, years in the past where I would have like panic attacks really, really struggle with stress.

[00:13:35] Nathan: Yeah. And then other times where I’ve really, really enjoyed the work and had like a, a much more, I guess, fluid easygoing, um, easygoing relationship with it. But is that something, as you work with leaders and, and all that, is that something that you work with them a lot on, is their relationship to their work and, and the stress side of it?

[00:13:55] Simon: Absolutely. So many people are stressed because they tie their emotional wellbeing mm-hmm. To whether something works out or not, or even their achievements. So, I dunno if you know this, but when Michael Phelps retired from being an Olympic swimmer mm-hmm. Within the first year, he talked about how often he had suicidal thoughts.

[00:14:14] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:14:14] Simon: And that was because his identity was so tied to being an Olympic swimmer.

[00:14:19] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:14:20] Simon: So when you retire from that career, who are you?

[00:14:23] Nathan: Right.

[00:14:23] Simon: How do you describe yourself now? And so it’s, it’s really understanding that you are not your achievements. If you tie yourself to it, your emotional wellbeing’s gonna be like a rollercoaster.

[00:14:34] Simon: When things go well, you’re gonna be having a euphoric hire. When things don’t go well, you wanna shut yourself away from the world.

[00:14:39] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:14:40] Simon: And so it’s really focusing on the fact that you can choose to be happy and grateful just for the sake of it. It doesn’t have to be tied to an achievement. And in fact, when you operate from a place of gratitude, for me, that’s how you access abundance.

[00:14:53] Simon: It’s again, choosing what you see. If you’re realizing that there is so much to be grateful for in this present moment, suddenly your mind finds even more things to be grateful for, you attract more opportunities into your world.

[00:15:06] Nathan: That seems like something that is really easy to say and really hard to live out.

[00:15:10] Nathan: Like how do you coach people through making that, that transition and saying like, okay, my accomplishments are not my self worth, you know, and, and all of those things.

[00:15:21] Simon: Absolutely. I mean. It’s one of those things that’s hard because it’s something we’re so conditioned to believe. Mm-hmm. So if you look at how society judges success, we judge success on external metrics.

[00:15:31] Simon: So usually when you ask people, who do you consider to be successful, the traits that go into their determination of who’s successful are things like how much money someone is earning their status, their job title, the company they work with. But if you were to take all of that away and really ask someone, well, who are you?

[00:15:48] Simon: Without those things, a lot of people can’t tell you because they don’t know what that is. And so in a way, when we, when we talk about wisdom and when I’m teaching people to become wiser, I always say wisdom begins with knowing yourself.

[00:16:01] Nathan: Okay,

[00:16:02] Simon: who are you? What do you stand for? Ultimately? What is a successful life for you?

[00:16:07] Simon: If you could take away all of these external metrics, you choose what is a successful life for you? What would that look like? And it’s starting from there.

[00:16:15] Nathan: Hmm.

[00:16:16] Simon: It’s having clarity of purpose, because going back to something you said earlier about purpose for me. When you know what your purpose is, when you know what you’re working toward, when you know what fulfillment looks and feels like for you, that awakens one of the greatest energetic sources within us.

[00:16:33] Simon: It’s what wakes us up in the morning. It’s what pulls us forward. It’s what allows us to do more than our basic job description.

[00:16:39] Nathan: Okay. So going to that stress, I wanna give listeners a handful of tools. Mm. For, for dealing with that. ’cause I, I find that most ambitious people that I come across.

[00:16:48] Simon: Yeah.

[00:16:49] Nathan: And if you’re listening to this show, you’re probably an ambitious, very highly driven person.

[00:16:53] Nathan: Are going to encounter a lot of stress at some point. Yeah. It might be self-inflicted, it might be, um, whatever comes up from family, from work, from, you know, anything else. Opportunities you’ve taken, the ones that you’ve missed out on, whatever else. And I wanna give a series of, of tools and I’ll, so I’ll kick off with one and then I’d love for you to share one, one thing that really helps me.

[00:17:13] Nathan: Is thinking about life as a video game. Mm-hmm. Like you’re talking about and there being a series of levels.

[00:17:18] Simon: Yeah.

[00:17:19] Nathan: And so looking back,

[00:17:21] Simon: mm.

[00:17:21] Nathan: So I look at a problem today that feels crushing to me, where I’m like, I don’t know what I’m gonna do about this. This is so stressful. And I will set that aside for a moment.

[00:17:29] Nathan: And I will think back to a time a few years ago that I felt the same way.

[00:17:32] Simon: Mm-hmm.

[00:17:33] Nathan: So like an example would be, uh, figuring out how to lead a company through a global pandemic.

[00:17:40] Simon: Mm-hmm.

[00:17:40] Nathan: And lock down and everything else. And that felt crushing at the time. Mm-hmm. Now I look at that and I go, oh, that’d actually be pretty easy.

[00:17:48] Nathan: Not, not easy, but I know how I would do that.

[00:17:51] Simon: Mm.

[00:17:52] Nathan: Past me was crushed under the weight of that stress current me. It would be like you. That’s fine.

[00:17:58] Simon: Yeah.

[00:17:58] Nathan: I’ve grown enough. And so that reflection in time realizes, oh, I have leveled up as a leader, as a human, all of that. To the point that what was crushing before is manageable now.

[00:18:12] Nathan: Yeah. And so now I can go forward in time and say, okay, so the thing that feels crushing now Mm. I bet Nathan three years from now will go, okay, I wish my problems were that easy.

[00:18:23] Simon: Yeah.

[00:18:24] Nathan: And so using time in that way and, and personal growth mm-hmm. To put things in

[00:18:27] Simon: perspective.

[00:18:28] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:18:28] Simon: So for me, there’s, there’s three things that come to mind.

[00:18:30] Simon: The very first thing is when you feel stressed, especially if you’re going through a very tough situation right now Yeah. Or a period that’s challenging, the hardest thing is focusing on that challenge now, because it just makes you more stressed when you, the more you think about it. Uh, and so the first thing you wanna do is you wanna distance yourself from it.

[00:18:49] Nathan: Okay.

[00:18:50] Simon: In order to see the solution that we all know, but often gets clouded by judgment. Mm-hmm. So, for example, if somebody’s going through a tough time right now, or perhaps they’re procrastinating on something they know they should be doing, I might distance themself from that situation by asking them a question like, well, if the next year of your life.

[00:19:08] Simon: Was like the next episode on a Netflix show. What would that episode be called? And what would be happening on it that would make it compelling viewing.

[00:19:18] Nathan: Okay. Interesting. That’s not where I thought you were going at all. So,

[00:19:22] Simon: so what happens is it distances themself away from them being in the trenches.

[00:19:27] Simon: Okay. And gets their creativity flowing. And then saying, well, I think in the next episode I would finally break my procrastination and start that project. And they’ll be like, then what would happen next? What would make the viewer wanna continue watching? And they’ll be like, well, the project starts to take off.

[00:19:42] Simon: We start calling some suppliers. And now they’re detailing out a plan forward.

[00:19:47] Nathan: Right?

[00:19:47] Simon: They’re doing it, but they’re doing it from a distance, from them being in it.

[00:19:51] Nathan: When you move from analytical to storytelling.

[00:19:53] Simon: Absolutely. And storytelling has emotion.

[00:19:55] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:19:56] Simon: And emotion is what activates an energy inside of us to realize we know the way forward.

[00:20:00] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:20:00] Simon: So that’s an example. Another one could be, a client might say you, you know, it’s really tough. In my company right now, I feel like my manager’s micromanaging me. I can’t get my faults across. Now if I continue just focusing on that situation, it just makes that person more stressed. So I might say, well, let’s, for a moment, imagine your team is in a kitchen and you are all part of a kitchen team to prepare food for a restaurant.

[00:20:27] Nathan: Okay?

[00:20:27] Simon: And your manager is the chef. Tell me about the chef. And so we’re just creating a very extreme storytelling scenario that just takes him away from being in that situation. But we think of it through a different lens, and then it becomes a bit humorous, it becomes a bit funny, and then say, well, you know, the chef’s running about ordering people to do stuff, but he hasn’t really prepared all yet.

[00:20:47] Simon: Um, I’m trying to tell people what to, but no one’s listened because of pots and pans are just going up. Steam is coming up all over the place. And then we might say, well, how are you gonna get the chef’s attention? And so we’re coming up with a solution, but through a different, different path.

[00:21:01] Nathan: So I guess in that case, you’re going from contrasting, let’s say that the a this person actually works in a remote environment.

[00:21:08] Nathan: Mm-hmm. They’re communicating over Slack and email or Jira tickets. I don’t know what it is. Um, and their boss is micromanaging them through these messages or, or that sort of thing, or the things that are unsaid, you know? Mm. Or what comes across as passive aggressive in some way. And what you’re doing is you’re taking it out that real environment.

[00:21:30] Simon: Yeah.

[00:21:30] Nathan: And you’re going into,

[00:21:31] Simon: you, you, you’re, you’re switching up the environment to get them to see their same situation mm-hmm.

[00:21:37] Nathan: Through

[00:21:38] Simon: a different lens. So for example, in that situation, I might say, well, let’s take you out of you and put you in your boss’s shoes.

[00:21:47] Nathan: Okay.

[00:21:47] Simon: How do you think he receives information best?

[00:21:50] Nathan: Hmm.

[00:21:51] Simon: And so we’re just shifting perspective a little bit. It, it’s like, um, I had a recent conversation with a potential client and he was telling me about all the things that were worrying him. All the things he needs help with. And he felt drowning in, in, in all of these challenges. He told me he’s a family man.

[00:22:07] Simon: And so I just said to him, imagine you’ve come back from work and your children come up to you and one of them before leaving, tells you the exact same thing you’ve told me. What would you tell your son or daughter?

[00:22:21] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:22:21] Simon: If they told you what you just told me. And suddenly he’s formulating answers and he’s formulating advice because deep down, we, we have that knowledge, we have that wisdom, but it’s just having the courage to listen and follow through with it.

[00:22:34] Simon: Mm-hmm. So that would be one. The second is stillness is to slow things down so you can see the path forward. And very often we don’t rest. We see rest as a reward for working hard or hustling without realizing that work and rest are partners of the same team. So how can you slow yourself down? You mentioned journaling earlier and, and just to understand your thoughts at a deeper level.

[00:22:58] Simon: It could be something like just going for a walk in nature and then coming back, writing them, what came up in your mind? It could be meditation, whatever form that might take. How do you begin to find rest within your routine, not as a result of having achieved something.

[00:23:13] Nathan: Hmm.

[00:23:13] Simon: Um, and, and that’s key to me.

[00:23:16] Simon: And the third is connection to your future self. So what I mean by this is a lot of us make present day decisions based on our past self.

[00:23:25] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:23:25] Simon: And that’s what holds us back. But if we make present day choices and decisions based on our future self, IE what would future me do?

[00:23:33] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:23:34] Simon: Then that changes the game.

[00:23:36] Simon: Even a process of visualizing yourself sitting down on the table and the person opposite is your ideal future self, what would he or she tell you about where you are in the direction you should take?

[00:23:48] Nathan: Is there an example from either your own life or a coaching client where. They were able to have that clarity.

[00:23:55] Nathan: Yeah. When getting advice from their future self.

[00:23:57] Simon: So I can speak from personal experience when I was contemplating quitting my corporate career, it, it was probably at the time, the toughest decision I was about to take. Yeah. Um, you made

[00:24:07] Nathan: it so hard.

[00:24:08] Simon: Nobody in my me family had ever run a business. They’d always worked for someone, and my environment wasn’t full of people that were entrepreneurs.

[00:24:16] Simon: I, I grew up in an environment where everybody worked jobs. They would go to college, follow the blueprint that most of us follow in life. And so what made it hard was, if I quit this job, what would my parents say?

[00:24:27] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:24:27] Simon: What would my friends say? There was a lot of thoughts running through my head. And so what I started to do was to close my eyes, imagine myself walking to a room where there’s a table in the middle, pulling out the chair, sitting down and seeing my ideal future self in front of me.

[00:24:44] Simon: And just asking him, what would, what would you do? What would you do? What path should I take? And just as a result of doing that, I realized the pull and the excitement came from going into the unknown. It came from just exploring what I hadn’t done before, because I think that when you go into the unknown, the beauty of it is that anything is possible, but you’ve got to put yourself there.

[00:25:09] Simon: And just to change my environment, it taught me that the first step to getting anywhere in life is to design an environment around you that makes it impossible not to succeed. Mm-hmm. So I started changing what I read, what I watched, what I followed, what I listened to, who I spent time around, the events I went to, and that just really helped to change, uh, my vision of what could be possible.

[00:25:28] Nathan: Mm-hmm. That’s so interesting. I’m imagining the, like, the advice that your future self would give in so many different scenarios, but yeah, it, it gives clarity where you’re saying. You know, I, and I’ve done that like coaching other people through something of,

[00:25:43] Simon: yeah.

[00:25:43] Nathan: Just like, okay, that’s interesting. Like trying to set it aside and then create a different scenario.

[00:25:48] Simon: Mm.

[00:25:48] Nathan: Where the, and it’s like, well, what advice would you give this person? And they give the advice and they go, oh, that was me. Mm-hmm. Oh, okay. You know, it’s like, but you, you created that distance. The one that I found is really helpful whenever someone’s stuck, like not taking any action at all, is to have the framing around, like, doing a favor for your future self.

[00:26:09] Simon: Mm.

[00:26:09] Nathan: Like whenever someone, you know, can’t get past the procrastination. Yeah.

[00:26:12] Simon: Or

[00:26:13] Nathan: you know, you’re like, you know, it’s just like, Hey, today all I want you to do is do one favor. Could be tiny, could be medium sized. I don’t care for your future self.

[00:26:23] Simon: Yeah.

[00:26:24] Nathan: And so that, you know, that could be eating right. That could be working out, that could be going to bed at a reasonable time.

[00:26:29] Nathan: That could be making a little bit of progress on the book project you’ve been working on, on any of the things, but it’s just a little bit of a favor to you. Future self.

[00:26:38] Simon: Mm.

[00:26:38] Nathan: And then also to have some gratitude for something that your past self did.

[00:26:43] Simon: Yeah.

[00:26:43] Nathan: And like if you, it is just these tiny little things like what’s one thing I’m grateful for that my past self did?

[00:26:48] Simon: Okay.

[00:26:49] Nathan: Well, you know, I’m grateful that I, I, uh, my past self sat down for 30 minutes and made progress on the book. Yeah. I’m trying to write, and then the favor that I’m gonna do for my future self is, you know, I’m going to, uh. Go to bed at 10 instead of staying up till home midnight watching a Netflix show.

[00:27:05] Nathan: You know, something like that.

[00:27:06] Simon: Yeah. That’s so key. And that’s why for me, uh, beginning with the end of mind is so important. So when we wake up in the morning, it’s asking ourself, how will I know that today will have been a productive day? How will I know that this week will have been a productive week?

[00:27:20] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:27:20] Simon: And then just work backwards. And when we think about the action we take is to focus on the feeling after having taken the action, not the process of taking action.

[00:27:30] Nathan: Right?

[00:27:30] Simon: So for, for example, with the, with the book, rather than focus on what you’ve gotta do to complete the number of words or to get to your goal, focus on the feeling of how it would be like once you’re there.

[00:27:43] Simon: Okay. You’ve written the 500 words. How does it feel? How does it feel? If I’ve written 500 words today and set yourself up, great for a good start tomorrow. Because when you focus on that, that’s an emotion. And emotion is all about energy. And that emotion excites you enough to want to do it. It’s, it’s like.

[00:27:59] Simon: If, if all your friends are watching a TV show that you’ve never heard of, the excitement that they share, the feeling that you see they get from having watched this show almost seduces you to also wanna watch the TV show. Even though you’ve said to everyone, you’ve got no time, you find time to watch it because it’s now an emotional connection to wanting to watch that show.

[00:28:18] Nathan: Right. Okay. I wanna dig in on this, the emotion side. ’cause I spend all of my time, not quite all, so much of my time in the logical analytical side. And you’re talking about just focus on the feelings. Like how, how do you actually make that shift?

[00:28:36] Simon: Well, first of all, I’ll share my, one of my favorite quotes by Maya Angelou, which goes, people will forget what you said.

[00:28:41] Simon: People will forget what you did, but they will never forget the way you made them feel. And feeling is simply a transference of energy. And I first learned about this when I, you know, I often share about how I now have short hair, but when I was a teenager growing up in secondary school. You might not believe this.

[00:28:58] Simon: Nathan buy longer hair. I, I used to spend 20 minutes every morning jelling up my hair

[00:29:02] Nathan: okay.

[00:29:02] Simon: Preparing to go to school. And one summer I decided I’m just gonna shave it off. I I was back home in Malaysia and I said, I’m just gonna shave it off. And I come back to school in September. I remember being in the school canteen and a friend of mine comes up to me and he says, Simon, have you, how did the rumor going around about you?

[00:29:18] Simon: I’m like, no. What are they saying? And keep in mind, this was before social media, before the internet. Yeah. So people would often make up rumors about what you did during the summer holidays. And they said, people are saying that you spent the summer in a shower in monastery learning kung fu, and you had to shave your head.

[00:29:32] Simon: And I was thinking to myself, that’s why nobody’s coming up to me or wanting to start a fight with me. And I kept it ever since. And, and so the reason I, I often share that story is because we are telling ourselves stories every single day.

[00:29:46] Nathan: Mm.

[00:29:47] Simon: About our past, about our present, and about our future. And what we cannot, cannot do and stories is what activate.

[00:29:54] Simon: Our ability to get things done. Stories are also how we influence other people. The best communicators in the world are able to tell great stories, and it’s the stories that sell because they activate something inside of us that makes the audience relate to whatever that communicator is saying.

[00:30:10] Nathan: Hey, I hope you’re enjoying the episode.

[00:30:11] Nathan: I wanted to jump in really quick to suggest one thing you should do this year if you wanna grow your creator business, and that is to show up in person at conferences. You can do any of these great creator conferences. But the one that I would specifically recommend, because I organize it, it’s called Craft and Commerce.

[00:30:26] Nathan: So for the last 7, 8, 9 years, I dunno how long it’s been now, we’ve been hosting an in-person event for creators and it’s basically the event that we wish we had early on in our creator careers. We’ve got incredible workshops and speakers and just so many great things happening. But the thing that you’re gonna enjoy the most is the hallway track, the conversations at restaurants over lunch or just around the event with other creators.

[00:30:48] Nathan: My creator career changed drastically when I started showing up in person building relationships and then having those other creators help build my business with me and build me up and provide accountability and masterminds and so much more. So I would say get in person with creators, show up to Craft and Commerce this June, and if you want to grab your ticket, you can do that at kit.com/conference.

[00:31:09] Nathan: Uh, it’s sold out last year. It’s probably gonna sell out really soon again this year. So make sure to do that right away. Okay. Going back to this idea of stress and thinking about, I guess, your relationship to work.

[00:31:20] Simon: Yeah.

[00:31:21] Nathan: I’ll give a, a specific example of something I, I was reflecting on my year. So this was, you know, we’re, we’re recording this in January, um, so maybe mid-December.

[00:31:31] Nathan: Um, and I’m sort of reflecting on the year and realizing. That I, we accomplished so many incredible things this year. Mm-hmm. But the first thought when I was like, well, what was 2025 like? I was like, oh, it’s stressful. Mm. And then I, I went back and I realized we actually took all these amazing trips as a family.

[00:31:46] Nathan: Mm-hmm. Like, I had a really good balance to the year I did so many of things that I wanted to do, but stress is the thing that stood out because of, um, like some tough team transitions at the end of the year.

[00:31:58] Simon: And,

[00:31:58] Nathan: and like, it was more of a recency thing. And I remember thinking to myself, wait a second, this is weird.

[00:32:05] Simon: Mm-hmm.

[00:32:05] Nathan: Like, I have accomplished way too many of my goals. Mm-hmm. Like, I went back 10 years and I was like, whatever, Nathan in 2015 hoped and dreamed to accomplish. Mm-hmm. Like, Nathan in 2025 has exceeded those by 10 x or more, like in all of these different categories, like, just to name a few things.

[00:32:26] Nathan: Like the, the company was at over $50 million a year in revenue. The dream list of clients. It’s not even, it’s not just the biggest names in the creator space, it’s the biggest names in the celebrity space, you know, and like, and everything. And so if I were to rewind 10 years, like 2015, Nathan would be shocked.

[00:32:44] Simon: Yeah.

[00:32:45] Nathan: At two things. One, how successful everything was, and two, how 2025 Nathan felt about it. Like, how could you achieve all of this and be that stressed? And so I basically made a decision even just, uh, you know, three or four weeks ago mm-hmm. Of like, okay, I’m gonna, I’m gonna loosen up. I’m going to deliberately have a different, uh, relationship because, you know, with my own stress and emotions, because otherwise what am I doing?

[00:33:10] Simon: Mm-hmm.

[00:33:11] Nathan: Um, and so I’m curious if there’s similar transitions that you’ve helped people work through and, and some of your

[00:33:18] Simon: processes and, and what you shared there is. Not uncommon.

[00:33:22] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:33:22] Simon: Because what I’m hearing is the reason, or maybe one of the reasons that the stress has manifested mm-hmm. Is because wherever you are in your journey, you are focused so much on how far there is yet to go.

[00:33:35] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:33:35] Simon: And when you’re always focused on how much further you’ve got to go, you’re always gonna be stressed. But when you take a moment to step back and say, well, look at how I’ve come.

[00:33:45] Nathan: Right.

[00:33:46] Simon: Look at the journey I’ve been on, it makes you grateful for the present moment.

[00:33:50] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:33:50] Simon: And you start to let go a little bit.

[00:33:53] Simon: You are not so tired to the next thing in the next thing, because otherwise you’re gonna be in a constant set of anxiety. You’re not living in the present or the future or the past. And you, you, you fall into this tragic scenario of living as if you are never going to die, and then dying, having never really lived because you’re neither in the present, the past or the future.

[00:34:12] Simon: You’re just. In your thoughts. You’re

[00:34:15] Nathan: right.

[00:34:15] Simon: Constantly thinking about things that may or may not happen. You’re focused on control when in many cases all you can control is your input. And so when you kind of loosen up a little bit, you get to enjoy life more. You get to be open to circumstances beyond your control.

[00:34:30] Simon: And sometimes things work out better than you imagined. But when you start to try and control everything, that’s what creates stress. Because stress happens when an expectation does not meet what you are thinking about. So you might expect something to happen. It doesn’t happen. That creates stress. So loosening your control on the outcome being exactly the way you want, helps to reduce that feeling of stress.

[00:34:54] Nathan: One of my favorite authors and entrepreneurs is Jason Farid, who founded Basecamp. And he, uh, wrote a bunch of books, rework, getting Real, um, all these great books, and he talked about learning to play the drums.

[00:35:07] Simon: Mm.

[00:35:07] Nathan: And you know, as he’s playing the drums and, and all that, his, his teacher is like. You have to loosen up, you have to hold the drumsticks loosely.

[00:35:17] Simon: Mm.

[00:35:18] Nathan: Because you’re not getting the sound and, and all that, you’re, you’re death gripping the drumsticks and it is not working.

[00:35:24] Simon: Mm.

[00:35:25] Nathan: And that stood out to me so much because it was like, wait, that’s what I’m doing. I am, I am controlling, I’m holding tight and I’m trying to shape and create this outcome. And, you know, you could immediately see how, if you’re doing that, like nothing is gonna sound right in drums and it’s not gonna work well in business or life at all.

[00:35:42] Nathan: Yeah. Because I think it’s a really hard shift to make

[00:35:43] Simon: that that picture you’ve created is, is the equivalent of somebody holding so tight on something Yes. Focused on a particular result and trying to force something through when life doesn’t always work that way. Mm-hmm. And it reminds me of Wing Chun.

[00:35:56] Simon: I dunno if you heard of Wing Chun. It’s a form of martial art.

[00:35:58] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:35:58] Simon: Uh, but it was actually invented, uh, by a female. It was invented by a nun. And the reason she invented Wing Chun was because she was challenged, uh, to fight a man. Of course, strength versus strength, she couldn’t win. So the reason she designed Wing Chun was she observed animals in the environment and she wanted to understand how she could beat the other person’s strength, but without having strength herself.

[00:36:23] Simon: And it was simply by loosening up, by loosening her grip.

[00:36:26] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:36:27] Simon: By going with the flow and using the person’s strength against them. And that’s how Wing Chum was born. Wing Chum was simply, uh, her understanding of how to beat the person in the fight. And she actually won the fight simply by loosening up and using the opponent strength against himself.

[00:36:44] Nathan: So if we. Take that into the practical world. Mm-hmm. What’s an area of your life that you were able to loosen up and not be so attached to the result and,

[00:36:53] Simon: yeah. I think for me it’s certainly been parenting. Yeah. Parenting. It’s, yes.

[00:36:59] Nathan: Control that child and

[00:37:00] Simon: see

[00:37:00] Nathan: how well that works for you.

[00:37:02] Simon: Parenting is tough because, uh, as parents, you naturally have certain expectations that you want your child to meet, and you, you, you hope they do certain things, make certain choices and decisions, but you realize you can’t control them.

[00:37:16] Simon: They’re their own person and every child is different. And, and this is why you might have the first child and it’s like, oh my God, I really enjoy this child. They’re so well behaved. They eat and sleep so well. And then you have a second child that’s completely the opposite. You second children

[00:37:28] Nathan: are never

[00:37:29] Simon: Yeah.

[00:37:29] Simon: What, what went wrong? And, and so I think parenting has taught me so much about loosening up in the sense that you can’t control every aspect of that person. You can only guide them. And that’s why I think there’s a lot of similarities to leadership. You know, you can’t control every single right team member and employee.

[00:37:51] Simon: All you can do in your position is to guide them mm-hmm. Towards a compelling future that you then hope they make the right choices. And so with, with my daughter, it’s giving her the emotional space to share what she’s going through and simply acting as that guide. And one of the things I learned, um, from psychologist, Adam Grant, actually, he, he speaks a lot about this in some of his work, is that children, as they grow up between zero and 10, their default when they experience something for the first time, or they’re nervous about going to school or doing a new activity, it’s, they go straight to mom and dad and say, mom, dad, what do I do?

[00:38:28] Simon: I’m a bit nervous or I don’t know anyone here. What do I do now as parents, we, we jump straight in. We offer advice, we give them help and. This is kind of the same for adults in the sense that when you have a partner who may, has gone through a, a tough day at work and your partner comes back and they share what they’ve gone through automatically, we, as the other person, we feel like we have to jump in and offer advice and guidance.

[00:38:53] Simon: Right now, what he said is that you wanna spin it around to try and get them to coach themselves by you being vulnerable. So vulnerability being a path of connection. So instead of me, uh, just constantly giving advice to my daughter, I might say to my daughter when I’m noticing she’s a little nervous, I might say, you though dad’s feeling a little nervous right now as well.

[00:39:15] Simon: And she, she might go, really? You get nervous as well? I’m like, yeah, I’m s I’m speaking at this event next week. It’s the biggest audience I’ve ever spoken to, and I’m feeling a little nervous because I don’t really know the audience that well. What tips do you have for me?

[00:39:29] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:39:29] Simon: And suddenly her eyes light up and she goes, well, dad, yeah, you’ve, you’ve always done this and that.

[00:39:35] Simon: And they’ve always enjoyed. And so suddenly they come up with the most purest forms of wisdom and advice. But for them, it’s almost like they’re talking to themself as well. So when they next experience something similar, the child is thinking, actually, I can just do the same thing. So they’re learning to build that resilience and the fact that they can trust their own wisdom.

[00:39:55] Nathan: It’s a very similar thing as, you know, what would your future self do? Or all that. But in this case, it’s just, it’s, it’s a different person. Yeah. And so you’re giving them that distance from the problem and telling those stories is so important as well of,

[00:40:09] Simon: and it’s trust as well. It’s trusting that you’ve done the best you can.

[00:40:13] Simon: And whatever they do, it’s really up to, up to them to take it forward. Uh, in the same way in the business, uh, you know, I’ve spoken to a lot of different companies and I’ve noticed that the teams that feel that they are trusted, supported, and appreciated always perform better.

[00:40:27] Nathan: Right?

[00:40:27] Simon: Because they have been given a freedom to do what they were hired to do and are just guided towards, um.

[00:40:34] Simon: Activating their full potential.

[00:40:36] Nathan: Yeah. Yeah. I’m thinking about, you know, this idea of control and trying to control the outcomes.

[00:40:42] Simon: Mm-hmm.

[00:40:42] Nathan: Um, I was doing that a lot in parenting.

[00:40:45] Simon: Mm-hmm.

[00:40:46] Nathan: I have three boys, uh, they’re 14, 11, and six. And, uh, my 11-year-old really struggles with a lot of things with, um, his school, with just, just really a lot.

[00:40:59] Nathan: And the more I tried to shape and control the outcomes Yeah. The worse it got.

[00:41:03] Simon: Mm.

[00:41:04] Nathan: And the last few months, all I’ve tried to do is spend a lot of time with him.

[00:41:11] Simon: Mm-hmm.

[00:41:12] Nathan: And so we’re doing a massive construction project on a fort, uh, that he wants to build in the backyard, and he’s talked about it for a long time.

[00:41:21] Nathan: He wants to build a hobbit hole in the backyard. We have a little farm and, and there’s like a hillside and, and all of that. And first it was a ridiculous project and I don’t know how to do that. And you mm-hmm. You know, all of this. Mm-hmm. I realized that when I didn’t know how to help him, I was trying to control all these things.

[00:41:37] Nathan: And I thought and said like, wow, what if, what if the only thing I tried to control was how much time we spent together.

[00:41:43] Simon: Yeah.

[00:41:44] Nathan: And so I said, okay, you know what? Finally he was like, dad, let’s you know, can we build a hop hole hole? That’s me. Instead of saying like, I, what are we even doing? Like that? That’s,

[00:41:52] Simon: yeah,

[00:41:53] Nathan: that’s, I said, I just finally said, okay.

[00:41:55] Simon: Mm.

[00:41:55] Nathan: Because I knew it was something that was going to give us, you know, a project that was going to take hundreds of hours of us doing things together and just being,

[00:42:05] Simon: and the key is you’re doing it together.

[00:42:06] Nathan: Mm-hmm. So

[00:42:07] Simon: you’re learning together, you’re being challenged together. And even asking him, well, what do you think we should be doing next?

[00:42:14] Simon: And that brings you into the present moment. It, it’s, it’s like over, over the Christmas holidays, my, my family, we love doing jigsaws together.

[00:42:21] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:42:22] Simon: And the reason is because you’re not distracted by any technology. You’re just focused on building this jigsaw and you’re doing it as a team. And that’s quality time.

[00:42:30] Simon: And when we finish. The recent holiday period. I remember asking my daughter, ’cause I’m getting her to do some regular reflection, and I asked my daughter, what was the most memorable thing you did in the past two weeks? And it wasn’t the present, it wasn’t visiting Santa, it wasn’t doing all of these outings.

[00:42:46] Simon: It was simply, I just enjoy spending time with mom and dad. And what we realized is that the greatest gift we can give to someone else is our energy and our presence. Not time, but energy and presence. Mm. And children especially can feel that, you know, they can really notice that. They can notice if you are distracted or your, your mind is elsewhere, or they can tell whether you’re actually present with them, listening to them and connecting with them.

[00:43:10] Nathan: You actually just gave me something. I, I’m gonna change how I interact with August, my son on this project. Mm-hmm. Um, I am, I have a plan, like we drew up, we know what to do, but I have more of it in my head. And so he’s like, dad, what should we do next? Mm-hmm. Like, okay, well. Uh, we need to run electrical before we can put it in insulation.

[00:43:29] Nathan: So why don’t you grab the drill and start drilling these holes and we’ll run electrical wire and all of that. What I should do instead, and what I’m going to try to do when I, uh, come home from Dubai is to ask him, okay, what, you know, let’s go work on the hoba hole. Mm-hmm. What, what, what do you think we should do next?

[00:43:47] Simon: Mm-hmm.

[00:43:47] Nathan: And I bet he would get, you know, he’ll we’re far enough into the project. There’s probably four or five things that he’d be like, well, let’s do this part of it. Like, great.

[00:43:55] Simon: Mm-hmm.

[00:43:56] Nathan: You know, and let him drive more of that. And, and that’s holding it even more loosely and ’cause even though we’re spending a lot of time together

[00:44:05] Simon: Mm.

[00:44:05] Nathan: It’s still pretty outcome focused. Yeah. Right. We are building this thing. Mm. But if I ask him, Hey, what should we do next?

[00:44:11] Simon: Yeah.

[00:44:11] Nathan: Then it’s so much more presence focused.

[00:44:14] Simon: But, but it also feels like they’re valued.

[00:44:15] Nathan: Yes.

[00:44:16] Simon: That my contribution is valued. Like, one of the things that, uh. I do, and I shared a lot with companies as well, because I think it’s important when they have their team meetings

[00:44:25] Nathan: mm-hmm.

[00:44:25] Simon: Is often in team meetings. It’s the same people speaking, it’s the same people, uh, contributing to decisions. But if you can find ways to include people, you actually find not only does morale go up, but productivity also mm-hmm. Accelerates as well. And so we have a family committee and it’s a way to kind of get my daughter involved more in what we do.

[00:44:44] Simon: Yeah. And not for her to be just told what to do. So it might be, for example, where we’re going cinema, and last time we went to the cinema, it was dad’s choice of what to watch. And then it’s okay, the next time it’s your choice and the next time it’s mom’s choice. Mm-hmm. And so now they feel like their contribution is valued or we’re doing the chores this weekend.

[00:45:02] Simon: Uh, what cho do you wanna do? We just put all the different choices on the table. Right. She gets to pick, but it’s one that she is naturally drawn to and she wants to do. Mm-hmm. But then we’re gonna do some as well. So then it feels like you’re really operating as a team. Yeah. And she feels like what she shares, what she tells us, it’s also valued, it’s listened to.

[00:45:20] Simon: And I find that really gets her involved and she wants to actually contribute. She actually wants to help us.

[00:45:25] Nathan: Yeah. I love that. Okay. Thinking about this level of intentionality and energy as a leader, how, how do you think of, and how do you coach people to show up at like the energy that they bring to their companies?

[00:45:38] Simon: Absolutely. So energy, I sit through four dimensions and I see it through four dimensions, which are physical, mental, emotional, and spiritual.

[00:45:46] Nathan: Okay.

[00:45:46] Simon: Now, in many cases, when we think about energy, we only focus on the physical. It’s things like get more sleep, um, have a healthier diet, do more exercise, and those are things we can see as externals the most.

[00:45:57] Simon: But the invisible stuff is mental, emotional, and spiritual. Mental energy is all about your mindset. It’s your creativity and how you respond to things that don’t always happen the way you expect. Emotional energy is all about relationships. Relationships with yourself and the relationships with those around you.

[00:46:13] Simon: And spiritual energy is all about meaning and purpose. And so if we look at the world around us, a lot of people I see are exhausted, not because they are physically doing too much, but because they’re doing too little of things that bring them joy and they’re running someone else’s race. They haven’t figured out for themself.

[00:46:31] Simon: What success means. And the way I explain this to people is I imagine you and I were to go to to a buffet, now we go up to the food stations, we pick up our food, we come back and we sit down. I guarantee you that we would not sit down with the exact same looking plate of food and it wouldn’t be in the same quantity.

[00:46:49] Simon: It’ll be very different looking. It’s the same with success. So we need to look at all of the influences and inputs as just inspiration and what do we take from that to design our own philosophy? To arrive our own definition of success and then work towards that. So that’s all to do with spiritual energy.

[00:47:07] Simon: We talk about it a lot in popular culture. In Star Wars, they call it the force.

[00:47:11] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:47:11] Simon: In uh, Maui culture, they call it manii. My Chinese culture, they call it qi, but we don’t actually think about it when it comes to ourself. And the difference between energy management and time management is that time management assumes your energy’s constant for that entire day, whereas energy management appreciates that it fluctuates throughout the day.

[00:47:31] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:47:32] Simon: So you could have a whole day free to get work done, but if you’re not energized, you’re gonna waste it.

[00:47:38] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:47:38] Simon: You’re gonna procrastinate.

[00:47:39] Nathan: I’ve done that once or twice.

[00:47:41] Simon: Whereas if you have a certain level of energy, you’ll get more done in hours than most will get done in days because it’s what you bring into the hours, not how many hours you work.

[00:47:53] Simon: And that’s important to understand. So that for me is how I see energy.

[00:47:57] Nathan: So let’s take that to the example of the creator business.

[00:48:00] Simon: Yeah.

[00:48:01] Nathan: Right. Where uh, maybe we have a massive project like the or, so something that’s really important.

[00:48:06] Simon: Yeah.

[00:48:06] Nathan: Uh, the writing towards the book or maybe even like a, a energy makes a big difference in writing, but it matters even more in say, the YouTube video that we’re producing.

[00:48:16] Simon: Yeah.

[00:48:17] Nathan: Did I show up with reading the script off the teleprompter and no energy? Or was I able to bring in this energy and enthusiasm that’s gonna come through on camera and be this exciting thing?

[00:48:28] Simon: Yeah.

[00:48:29] Nathan: How would you go about structuring your day and thinking about bringing the right energy to the right scenario?

[00:48:36] Simon: Well, first of all, I would say when it comes to communicating something, and this goes to the same, whether it’s a YouTube video recording or a bit of content, you’re recording, it’s the same when you speak to an audience live.

[00:48:44] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:48:45] Simon: Is whatever you’re speaking about, it has to be about something that you are fascinated by and that you truly enjoy.

[00:48:52] Nathan: Okay.

[00:48:52] Simon: Because if it is, you’re naturally gonna be energized. It’s like if you ask a friend who’s just watched a really good show or really good film, what film or show should I watch next? When they talk about it to you? You don’t have to worry about their energy. They’ve gotta light up and say, oh Nathan, you’ve really gotta check out this TV show.

[00:49:07] Simon: It’s amazing. I’ve really gone through the first season.

[00:49:09] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:49:10] Simon: The energy is flowing and so if it’s a topic that you enjoy and that you really find yourself connected to, the energy will naturally come.

[00:49:18] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:49:18] Simon: Now, outside of that, it’s how you prepare ahead of recording the content. Are you kind of doing it last minute where you’re rushing to get it recorded?

[00:49:28] Simon: Or are you doing it in a way where you’ve prepared, you set things up and you’re ready in the right state to record and get their energy across? So the preparation is very important. Again, whether you’re speaking in front of an audience, whether you are recording content or sharing anything live, uh, that you’re looking to put out to a bigger audience.

[00:49:46] Simon: So it’s how you prepare and then your connection to that material.

[00:49:50] Nathan: Are there things that you think about, not just energy on a daily basis, but on like across a week or a different period of time?

[00:49:57] Simon: Yeah, I, I see a season, so there’ll be seasons in your year where, you know your energy is gonna be tested more than others.

[00:50:04] Simon: So for example, we, we’ve mentioned book a couple of times, so if you’ve got a book about to launch, you will know that in the four to eight weeks before the launch and the four to eight weeks after.

[00:50:14] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:50:14] Simon: It’s gonna be pretty intense.

[00:50:15] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:50:16] Simon: So you might be doing a lot of podcast interviews, you might be doing a lot of PR related activities,

[00:50:20] Nathan: traveling,

[00:50:21] Simon: book signing, traveling.

[00:50:22] Simon: Yep. And so if you know ahead of time the impact is gonna have on your energy, you can say no to a lot more things ahead of time. Mm-hmm. You can clear the diary ahead of this season picking up just so you have the energy to deal with whatever’s gonna come into your inbox. So that’s how I see it. I see my year as seasons, so summer and Christmas for example, what I call the quiet seasons.

[00:50:42] Simon: And I use those seasons to reflect, spend time with the family and just disconnect. And then there’ll be particular points in my year where business really picks up, you know, beginning of the year, towards the end of the year where there are big conferences going on where people wanna book me to speak.

[00:50:55] Nathan: Right.

[00:50:55] Simon: Or I’m launching something that I need to just block out a bit more time for, just so I’ve got the energy to deliver whatever it is I’m looking to deliver with the best that I can do.

[00:51:05] Nathan: Are there, you know, what other energy decisions have you made in your life to, to make it so that your energy most matches the, the way you wanna show up or the outcomes that you’re trying to create?

[00:51:14] Simon: I think it’s a mindset as well. Yeah. If I’m going to mental energy, I am, I’m a creative, uh, which sounds weird coming from someone who used to come from finance

[00:51:22] Nathan: Right.

[00:51:22] Simon: But I love thinking differently.

[00:51:24] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:51:24] Simon: And for me, creativity is one of those skills that is gonna become, if, if it’s not ready, is gonna become so much more important, uh, as AI takes over a lot more of our functional skills.

[00:51:36] Simon: And so creatively, it’s just ability to see things and do things in a different way, often in ways that has never been done before. And that for me, is what really gets me going. It’s really understanding how can I do something in a way that has never been done before. Now in marketing, they call this UTP, which stands for unique talking points.

[00:51:53] Simon: So what happens is when you build unique talking points into your business or what you do, people can’t help but share about it on their social media, on, on their platforms because you in effect, turn your customers and your audience into your marketers. They become your marketers. And I, I remember talking about unique talking points, talking about sort of like finding creative ways to get you energized from a mentor point of view.

[00:52:19] Simon: Mm-hmm. A friend of mine in London, uh, opened a nightclub a number of years ago, and it’s a very competitive space. You know, when you think about what you wanna do in an evening, you, you’re spoke with choices.

[00:52:28] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:52:29] Simon: But he decided to think about what would my unique talking point be? Would get all of the guests telling all of their friends about this club and marketing it, doing the marketing for us.

[00:52:41] Simon: So they ended up getting some train tracks on the ceiling of this nightclub. And if a VIP table were to order some shots from the bar, the bartenders would put the shots into this toy train. They would light the toy train up, so it’ll be on fire. It would go along the train tracks to the table and day of the dead characters, because it was a Mexican themed bar.

[00:53:02] Simon: Day of the dead characters would come out and take their shots and give it to the table. The moment the train is going through that nightclub, everyone’s got their phones out taking photos, videos, selfies, and they’re just marketing it for on, on, on their behalf. And so that’s the power of thinking about unique talking points and really accessing that creativity.

[00:53:19] Simon: And that’s, for me, what gives me that mental energy. It’s really being inspired to see things differently. It’s why I love connecting with people from very diverse backgrounds. Now, if you only look at your competition. You can only be as good as your competition. But when you look beyond your industry, when you look at other people doing well in different sectors, you are able to bring that inspiration into your own industry and stand out.

[00:53:44] Simon: It, it’s how Steve Jobs came up with the MagSafe chords for the MacBook on the trip to Japan. He, he, he noticed the rice cookers there, had this magnetic cord and so curious. He, he wanted to know the reason behind it. And the company told him, well, the reason we have these magnetic cords is that if a child was a trip on the wire

[00:54:04] right,

[00:54:04] Simon: the wire would come off, but the appliance would stay still.

[00:54:08] Simon: And Steve came back to us and he said, we’re gonna bring that into the next MacBook.

[00:54:12] Nathan: Mm.

[00:54:12] Simon: And that was where the MagSafe cord was bought. And when it came out, the editors and the journalists said, what a genius move. This is such an innovative bit of design, but it was inspired by looking beyond his industry.

[00:54:24] Nathan: And then you’re just, it’s not another me too copycat product. It’s pulled from a totally different place. And I’m thinking about the Bryce cooker that, that we have. And it has that,

[00:54:34] Simon: that

[00:54:34] Nathan: magnetic cord, right? ’cause the last thing that you want to do is to drop a Bryce cooker on a small child.

[00:54:39] Simon: Absolutely.

[00:54:39] Simon: And so that’s why, for me, to keep me energized throughout this entrepreneurial journey, I’m always seeking to learn from people with different backgrounds

[00:54:46] Nathan: mm-hmm.

[00:54:46] Simon: Who are successful in different ways. Uh, so if we look at the content creative space, it’s not just your YouTuber, it’s your TikTok, it’s your Instagram.

[00:54:54] Simon: It’s the person that’s built a, a big newsletter. The person that’s built a, a great audience in a variety of different mediums. What are they doing that I can learn from, especially if they’ve done it in a way that is different to what I’ve seen.

[00:55:04] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:55:05] Simon: Because as you start to collect all those dots, your ability to then connect them and learn from them allows you to make that progress forward.

[00:55:12] Nathan: There’s so many examples of, um, pulling from different industries. Mm-hmm. Two that worked really well for me.

[00:55:17] Simon: Yeah.

[00:55:18] Nathan: One is when I was in the design space. I would see all of these web designers

[00:55:24] Simon: mm-hmm.

[00:55:24] Nathan: Put their work on, uh, these gallery websites. Yeah. So it was like CSS galleries or that, that sort of thing.

[00:55:30] Nathan: And it was all of the trends in design and people would copy that and everybody sort of made things that look the same. Yeah. And they needed inspiration. Mm-hmm. And so they went to their peers and they got inspiration and sure enough, it all trended towards one area. What I ended up doing that I found was much better

[00:55:46] Simon: mm-hmm.

[00:55:46] Nathan: Is I found that clothing brands in particular would have really great source of design. So I would go to like Banana Republic in the mall and they would have like their, you know, their fall collection would have this interesting blend of colors and textures and typography or you, you look at the, the clothes themselves and the tag on it would have like an interesting texture to it.

[00:56:09] Nathan: And it’s like, oh, well let’s, what if I build a website that’s inspired by this fabric that’s texture and the font that they chose and I was. You know, fairly blatantly copying from something, but it didn’t, it felt totally new in my world because I took, I took it somewhere completely different.

[00:56:26] Simon: Yeah. But, but that’s creativity for you.

[00:56:27] Simon: Creativity isn’t about inventing something that has never been done before. Right. It’s about creating something as a result of your, your influences. You’re drawing from different things to give birth to something new, but it’s influenced by things that have already, already come to pass.

[00:56:42] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:56:42] Simon: And so that’s all creativity is, but in order to activate that, we have to be curious.

[00:56:47] Simon: We have to follow our curiosities.

[00:56:48] Nathan: Right.

[00:56:49] Simon: In the same way that Steve Jobs did, in the same way lots of other people have done the same way that you did. It’s to follow our curiosities again, without being attached to the outcome and seeing where they may lead.

[00:56:58] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:56:58] Simon: And often they can lead to very interesting insights, opportunities, or introductions.

[00:57:02] Nathan: Yeah. I love that. The other one that, that was important for me is the blend between the startup world mm-hmm. And the direct response marketing world. And so the first book that I published. Um, I had a long form sales page. Mm-hmm. Which in the direct response world was very, very common. Right. Long form sales pages.

[00:57:24] Nathan: Mm-hmm. The copy is very, very important. We’re addressing all of the obstacles, but they would do it in this like poorly designed yellow highlighter. You know, anyone who’s spent time in that space knows that look. But then at the same time, I would go over anyway, I spent all this time in the, in the world of startups.

[00:57:41] Simon: Mm.

[00:57:41] Nathan: Where simplicity, elegant, like great design, really, really mattered. And so I came out with these, this landing page for my book and everyone was like, I have never seen something like this. And it was just the intersection of those two worlds because it was great copywriting, a long form sales page, but it was beautifully designed.

[00:57:59] Nathan: And it’s like, I just took two industries, like very, very common practice in two different industries and merged it together. And everyone’s like, I’ve never seen this before. And you’re like,

[00:58:09] Simon: and, and that’s originality in motion. You just connect in different industries together. I mean, this is how we, uh, how we launched my first book.

[00:58:15] Simon: I mean, we partnered with the Aughts Hotel in London, uh, which at the time was the world’s best bar. And my book is called Energized. And they designed an energized cocktail.

[00:58:23] Nathan: Okay.

[00:58:23] Simon: And so for the first few weeks of launch, if you ordered that cocktail in a bar, it would be mixed in front of you. And then presented on the signed copy of my book, we, we partnered with a celebrity chef.

[00:58:32] Simon: We did a seven course menu. Yeah. Where each course was inspired by a theme for my book.

[00:58:36] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:58:37] Simon: So communicating personal development and leadership through food. It, it was a unique experience. And then we partnered with an artist,

[00:58:44] Nathan: and it’s noteworthy. It gives you unique talking points.

[00:58:47] Simon: Exactly. Gives you so many unique talking points.

[00:58:49] Simon: Mm-hmm. Uh, that people can’t help but share and talk about it. And then an artist created this beautiful abstract painting based on my work. And again, things that often in many cases have never been done before.

[00:59:00] Nathan: Right.

[00:59:00] Simon: But it’s just, as you say, just now, it’s simply the intersection of two different industries given birth to New Fort.

[00:59:06] Nathan: Let’s dive into this because the book is coming out, right? I it is. If we rewind in time a little bit Yeah. And you’re thinking about, okay, I have a message that I wanna get in front of a lot of people.

[00:59:16] Simon: Mm-hmm.

[00:59:18] Nathan: First, are you tied to an outcome on that or

[00:59:20] Simon: no?

[00:59:21] Nathan: How did you distance yourself from, from the outcome?

[00:59:23] Simon: So, so for me it’s, again, it’s letting go of the outcome, being grateful. So for me, if I’m honest, I was already grateful. I, I had a book, they were penguin. Many people would, would love to have a deal with a publisher like Penguin. Uh, and then to get the likes of Simon Sinek, Ali Abdal and the like to, to endorse the book was for me already a huge win.

[00:59:42] Simon: So for me, whatever happened after that was a bonus. But for me, in terms of the marketing, it was like, well, what are some cool experiments I can try? And just treat it like a game. Gamified a process.

[00:59:51] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:59:52] Simon: And we just had a whiteboard up on our wall and we just all had all of these different channels that we wanted to experiment with.

[00:59:57] Simon: And the way I describe it is a lot of authors who are about to publish, it’s the equivalent of their strategy. It’s equivalent of driving through a narrow country lane in the sense that once you hit traffic, you can’t go anywhere. And so a lot of authors, when they have a new book coming out, they just go into social media, that media, they did the

[01:00:13] Nathan: exact same

[01:00:13] Simon: playbook.

[01:00:14] Simon: Buy the book, buy the book, buy the book. It’s just buy the book. Buy the book.

[01:00:16] Nathan: Right.

[01:00:16] Simon: The message the whole time is just get my book. But that’s not gonna be effective because when you put new content out, each piece of content has to be slightly different. I mean, it can still be about the book, but it has to be something that’s a little indirect

[01:00:29] Nathan: and a unique way to get attention.

[01:00:30] Simon: Yeah. Because it appeals to different segments of your market. Not everyone’s gonna resonate with Just buy my book all the time.

[01:00:35] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[01:00:35] Simon: And so when we looked at the different channels, it could be things such as what book clubs could we reach out to? So when they recommend this book in a month, suddenly you have hundreds if not thousands of people buying the book.

[01:00:45] Simon: What podcasts could we get on? Uh, which people could we collaborate with? What sort of stunt marketing could we do? What activations could we do? Who could we collaborate with? What events could we speak and so on. So with all of these different channels, and I liken that to driving on a highway, so unlike the country lane, when you hit traffic, you can’t go anywhere in the highway.

[01:01:04] Simon: If something doesn’t work out, you just keep shifting lanes.

[01:01:06] Nathan: Yeah. Big.

[01:01:06] Simon: You just keep moving lanes big. You, you’re just constantly experimenting. And so that’s how I, at, I detach from the outcome is I just focus on the fun of it.

[01:01:14] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[01:01:14] Simon: Let’s just treat this journey as a game. I’ve already, I’m already in a very good position.

[01:01:18] Simon: I’m really grateful having got a book deal and having got these incredible names to endorse the book. Let’s just have a bit of fun with marketing.

[01:01:25] Nathan: Mm.

[01:01:25] Simon: And and see where it may go.

[01:01:27] Nathan: Yeah. You’re holding it loosely. You’re optimizing for fun.

[01:01:29] Simon: Yeah.

[01:01:29] Nathan: You’re gratitude all the way through and you’re saying, what can I do that’s unique?

[01:01:32] Nathan: Something else that helps. I mean, it really stands out as I’m starting to, to come down the final stretches of finishing my own book and, and thinking about promotion. Realizing like, oh yeah, by default I’m just gonna run the same playbook that everyone else does. And so two things is, I guess, changing the way that you brainstorm.

[01:01:52] Simon: Mm.

[01:01:53] Nathan: Uh, one is having like a no bad idea is brainstorm.

[01:01:56] Simon: Yeah.

[01:01:57] Nathan: You know, where you’re just at the whiteboard. What are the craziest thing I would never have thought of? Partnering with a hotel and a bar and Yeah. You know, the cocktail on a copy of your book, like even if only five people ever ordered that mm-hmm.

[01:02:09] Nathan: And you, but you got the Instagram reel and it like Exactly. That’s worth it and itself. It’s the

[01:02:13] Simon: novelty.

[01:02:13] Nathan: Yeah. It’s the novelty of, it’s the novelty. Right. So, you know, you can do this like no bad ideas and you’re throwing things out there, writing it down, and no one’s allowed to say like, well, that would never work, because, yeah.

[01:02:25] Nathan: And so that’s one side of it. The other that I find really, really helpful is stepping into the pre-mortem.

[01:02:30] Simon: Mm.

[01:02:31] Nathan: And that’s basically going into this. Instead of no bad ideas, it’s this project has failed.

[01:02:37] Simon: Mm.

[01:02:38] Nathan: I know. We’re, you know, not too tied to the outcome, but let’s say that the outcome is, uh, we, you know, we didn’t sell 50,000 copies.

[01:02:45] Nathan: Mm-hmm. We sold 50

[01:02:46] Simon: mm.

[01:02:47] Nathan: You know, we didn’t reach the people that we wanted to. Yeah. We didn’t achieve this goal. The startup that we’re building shut down. Why? And we just step in into this world. Mm-hmm. So we’re saying, okay, it’s a year in the future. It’s completely failed.

[01:02:57] Simon: Yeah.

[01:02:58] Nathan: What are all the reasons why?

[01:03:00] Nathan: And in en listing all of that out. Mm-hmm. You can identify you. I think you’re doing two things. You’re identifying the, the reasons that it would fail. And it’s very tempting. You go, oh, but we’d fix it with this. No, no. Remember it failed.

[01:03:15] Simon: Yeah.

[01:03:15] Nathan: And you just write down, here’s all the reasons that it, that it failed, uh, or that could possibly have failed.

[01:03:20] Nathan: And then the other thing that you’re doing is you’re getting all those anxieties out of your head.

[01:03:26] Simon: Yeah.

[01:03:27] Nathan: Because then it’s even, that’s like list out and you’re like. Oh, well if it failed because of this, like, we still learned a lot, right? Mm-hmm. You can, you can sit in that world. And so I think the pre-mortem and knowing that you’re gonna do that really allows a team to step into the

[01:03:42] Simon: Yeah.

[01:03:42] Nathan: The brainstorm and the positive thinking where it’s so easy to, like, I throw out an idea.

[01:03:47] Simon: Mm-hmm.

[01:03:48] Nathan: Or let’s throw it the other way. You throw out an idea and I go, well, devil’s advocate, like, you know.

[01:03:53] Simon: Mm-hmm.

[01:03:53] Nathan: That would never work because of this. And like, now you’re crushed. ’cause you’re like, oh yeah. You know, but we can full, fully stay in the positive side, brainstorming no bad ideas and knowing that in 30 minutes or an hour mm-hmm.

[01:04:06] Nathan: Or another day, we’re then going to set all that aside and switch into the fully the negative side. And instead of balancing both things side by side, we’re gonna separate them, but give each their due.

[01:04:16] Simon: Yeah. And, and also an interesting thought to throw into the mix, instead of just brainstorming. What’s also good is to question storm.

[01:04:24] Nathan: Okay.

[01:04:24] Simon: And question storming is just throwing out questions into the middle of the room and seeing what comes of it. So it could be simply like, well, what’s the craziest marketing strategy you’ve seen in the worlds that you operate in? Because now you’re given permission to doze on the table to share from their personal experience.

[01:04:41] Simon: Someone might be interested in gaming, someone might be interested in racing, someone might be interested in shoes. And you’re just saying, what’s the craziest marketing campaign you’ve seen in the things that you’re interested in? And then they just go, oh, oh, actually I really followed this particular product or this brand.

[01:04:55] Simon: They just did an amazing marketing campaign on this. Great. Tell us about it. And what you’re doing is you’re drawing from people’s backgrounds and experiences and saying, well, that works. What can we learn from that?

[01:05:05] Nathan: Right.

[01:05:06] Simon: And bring into what we do. Because if it’s just purely brainstorming, some people might not feel confident that their ideas are valuable.

[01:05:13] Simon: So that’s why some people just don’t contribute.

[01:05:15] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[01:05:15] Simon: But when you throw questions out, that you’re giving permission for people to share their insight and wisdom.

[01:05:20] Nathan: Hmm. What I’m realizing about that is, the question I would draw is more naturally is what’s the craziest book marketing strategy that you’ve seen?

[01:05:30] Nathan: And people are like, well this, this guy I follow in the uk, like partnered with this bar. And you know, you’d have the examples like that. But that’s like the, the web designer.

[01:05:38] Simon: Yeah.

[01:05:39] Nathan: Just copying from the other web designers.

[01:05:42] Simon: Absolutely.

[01:05:42] Nathan: But when you say, what’s the craziest marketing strategy you’ve ever seen?

[01:05:46] Simon: Yeah.

[01:05:46] Nathan: Then we go way beyond books. Mm. Then we’re throwing out all of these things and maybe only like maybe 20% of them would be relevant if we pulled from books and because now we’re pulling from all of marketing only 3% or 5% is relevant. Yeah. But then it would spark something else and, and you’re just go in much more

[01:06:02] Simon: broad and let’s say, come up with these ideas.

[01:06:03] Simon: Like recently, um, I, I got interviewed by a friend who, who is launching a book in the uk and just by diversifying his inputs mm-hmm. He found out one great idea was when he does street interviews. Well, instead of just holding a mic, put the mic on your book.

[01:06:17] Nathan: I saw that. Yeah. I watched that clip. Yeah. And I sent it to my team actually.

[01:06:20] Simon: Just and be, because you’re keeping it visible in the content, the book a whole way. It’s going back and forth, forth, back and forth. And that book is going into your subconscious.

[01:06:27] Nathan: Yeah.

[01:06:28] Simon: And that’s what it’s about. It’s all about subconscious marketing, because even though he’s not explicitly saying, Hey guys, this book’s coming up by the book.

[01:06:34] Simon: It’s just a natural conversation. But the book is in,

[01:06:36] Nathan: was that, so the clip that I saw was with Tim Amu.

[01:06:38] Simon: Yeah. That, that, that’s what I’m referring to. Yeah.

[01:06:40] Nathan: Yeah.

[01:06:40] Simon: And, and so we initially started the conversation without the book.

[01:06:43] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[01:06:44] Simon: And then it was actually, let’s experiment with it. ’cause I saw this in another video.

[01:06:47] Nathan: Yeah.

[01:06:47] Simon: And then we tried it, and then we looked at it and we thought, actually that’s, that’s a really good bit of content because the book is visible throughout the entire conversation. Right. And even when you’re speaking, uh, I, I, I, I’ve now shared that with other speakers as well, that if you’ve got a book coming out, walk onto stage.

[01:07:02] Simon: If you’re walking from, uh, left to right, walk on stage with a book in your hand and put it on the lectern and then walk after stage with a book in your other hand. So the, the front cover, the book is always visible to people taking photos and videos of your speaking.

[01:07:14] Nathan: Hmm. I love that. But yeah, like, I mean, even from a content creation perspective.

[01:07:18] Simon: Yeah.

[01:07:19] Nathan: I always think about, I had a guest on the show who told me to really think about the, the visual hook Yeah. For a short form video

[01:07:26] Simon: mm-hmm.

[01:07:27] Nathan: The audio hook and then any title hook mm-hmm. And right. And so for every short form video that he is putting out, he’s like, where’s you, you need to hit all three of these categories.

[01:07:37] Nathan: Yeah. And I was always thinking about just the audio hook. What am I saying? And he’s like, no, you need both. But when I saw that reel on your page

[01:07:44] Simon: Yeah.

[01:07:45] Nathan: The, the book being used as the microphone holder Yeah. Gave, was a visual hook.

[01:07:51] Simon: Yeah.

[01:07:52] Nathan: Even before I got into the audio and the title hook and all

[01:07:56] Simon: that.

[01:07:56] Nathan: And so I was

[01:07:56] Simon: like, and those hooks are so important.

[01:07:57] Simon: I, I, I remember, again, just me looking outside of my own industry, I, I, I, I follow a nutritionist on, on YouTube.

[01:08:03] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[01:08:04] Simon: And when she was announcing her book, the title, which created a huge amount of curiosity. Was something as simple as, I’ve been waiting three years, I’m finally able to come out with this.

[01:08:16] Simon: And now you’re like, well, what is it?

[01:08:17] Nathan: What is it?

[01:08:18] Simon: You, you, you’re thinking, what’s you gonna share? Mm-hmm. And so it just hooks you into, wanna watch the video?

[01:08:22] Nathan: Ah, there’s so much good stuff in there. I’m gonna go back to energy. Mm-hmm. And particularly energy with the team.

[01:08:27] Simon: Yeah.

[01:08:27] Nathan: So something that I think about a lot is what energy am I bringing to the situation?

[01:08:31] Nathan: Mm. Because running a, a team of 10, 20, 50, a hundred people, people are always looking to you like, is Nathan happy? Is Nathan upset? Is this a good idea? Is this not? And I naturally give off like fairly negative energy, or at least neutral. Like give me an example. At one of our team retreats, this is maybe two years ago, uh, Scott, one of our product managers mm-hmm.

[01:08:55] Nathan: Who actually lives in London.

[01:08:56] Simon: Okay.

[01:08:57] Nathan: He gave this incredible session about the app store that we were building, and it was super early in this app store project. So he led this whole brainstorm. He facilitated it so well and all of that. And afterwards I came up to him, I was like, Scott, that was so well done.

[01:09:09] Nathan: Mm-hmm. Like, you nailed it with that session. I’m so excited. And he goes really good, because every time I looked over at you, I thought like, wow, he’s so pissed. I’m probably gonna get fired. And I was like, what are you talking about? Like, I thought that was amazing. How did you think that He’s like, you just, and I, you know, he kind of didn’t finish that sentence and I was like, I have resting bitch face, don’t I?

[01:09:28] Nathan: And he was like, but you said it, not me. You know? But what I realized is that the natural energy I was giving off was just, was just negative and I didn’t mean to,

[01:09:38] Simon: yeah. It, it can be often unintended. Um, but what it tells me is that so much of our communication is nonverbal.

[01:09:45] Nathan: Right?

[01:09:46] Simon: You, you know, there’s only a small percentage that is, that is verbal for what we say, but the rest is the nonverbal stuff.

[01:09:51] Simon: How we look, how we react. Mm-hmm. How we respond. And often when I. I’m trying to help people respond better. Especially if you’re just in the audience and you are, you are in a position of leadership and you wanna support that person’s stage. It’s just, imagine it’s one of your sons on stage.

[01:10:05] Nathan: Mm.

[01:10:06] Simon: And one of your sons is performing in the school play.

[01:10:09] Simon: How would you respond to your son’s performance?

[01:10:11] Nathan: Yeah.

[01:10:12] Simon: Naturally. It’s one of a proud father, right?

[01:10:14] Nathan: Yeah.

[01:10:14] Simon: So it’s just a picture. How would a proud leader or a proud manager respond of their employee on stage?

[01:10:22] Nathan: Oh, that’s such a good framing. I love that. Yeah. And if you bring that energy that’s going to allow someone

[01:10:29] Simon: mm-hmm.

[01:10:29] Nathan: Like going back to our drumsticks analogy.

[01:10:31] Simon: Absolutely

[01:10:31] Nathan: right. They’re, if they’re leading the tighter they grip those drumsticks, the worse it’s gonna go. And then they’re gonna see that it’s going badly and they’re gonna pick up on you noticing that. And it’s, it, you know, it’s this vicious cycle.

[01:10:43] Simon: Yeah. It’s, it’s like why, if you are doing something that’s important to you and you have a mentor, you have a close friend or a partner in the audience, and they’re responding and they’re cheering you on and they’re yelling for you.

[01:10:53] Simon: You find that extra bit of energy to go the distance.

[01:10:56] Nathan: Yeah,

[01:10:56] Simon: and it’s the same way. You know if, if you’re a young child and you’re on stage and your parents are in your audience and something goes wrong, but your parents are like, you got it. You got it. Keep going, you’ll get there. Don’t worry about it. You just suddenly have this belief in yourself.

[01:11:08] Simon: And for a lot of us, we just need someone else to believe in us first. Right. To just give us that energy to perform.

[01:11:14] Nathan: Yeah. So thinking about that, that framework of bringing that proud energy.

[01:11:18] Simon: The proud energy, yeah.

[01:11:19] Nathan: Yeah. Because then that’s going to allow someone to loosen up. I mean, in my talk yesterday here at the conference,

[01:11:25] Simon: yeah,

[01:11:25] Nathan: right.

[01:11:26] Nathan: I was a little thrown off because I maybe about 10 minutes before going on stage, I realized this stage is in the round. Like I’ve never given a talk before where the audience is on all four sides of me, and so I’m like, wait. You know, it’s a short talk. I know it pretty well. I know I can deliver well, but now you’ve thrown in a variable that throws me off and I’m like, how quickly should I turn to each side?

[01:11:52] Nathan: You know, do I like, what do I do here? And there were a few people in the audience, uh, I think of Gabriel who runs the Creative Leaders group in the uk. You know, he was on one of those sides. He was sitting front and center with this great, smiling, encouraging energy. And so anytime I was like, you know, in my head of like, am I doing the right thing?

[01:12:11] Nathan: I’d kind of come around and there’s Gabriel just be like, like thoroughly enjoying the talk and supporting me. And I was like, oh, you know, I was getting that proud energy from him and I was like, what I needed.

[01:12:20] Simon: And just imagine how you felt at that. Right, right. And, and imagine how someone else would feel when they get that same, that same experience.

[01:12:25] Simon: Yeah. And this is where you, you, you know, when, when we go back to gratitude from women, the way I tell people how powerful gratitude is, is imagine if your manager or your boss were to send your voice note or come up to you even and say, Hey. I just wanna say I’m really grateful for the effort you put in yesterday.

[01:12:44] Simon: It really contributed to us winning the pitch. Yeah. How would you feel?

[01:12:47] Nathan: Fantastic.

[01:12:47] Simon: But how often do people do it? Right. And so what I say to people is, as often as you can go up to someone and verbally tell ’em how grateful you offer them focusing on something specific or drop a voice note to someone.

[01:13:00] Simon: Yeah. If they’re not, you know, within your proximity, that’s not just in the professional setting, but it’s also in your personal setting as well. So how can you drop someone a voice note to tell them how grateful you are for them?

[01:13:11] Nathan: Yeah.

[01:13:11] Simon: Because voice carries energy that’s important. If you send ’em a text message it, it just doesn’t land the same.

[01:13:17] Nathan: Yeah.

[01:13:17] Simon: Because you dunno the emotional state they were in when they, when they wrote it, but when you tell someone verbally how grateful you are for them, you are expressing gratitude and it doesn’t just impact the recipient. It impacts yourself as well.

[01:13:31] Nathan: Yeah. Oh, I love that. I mean, that’s a simple action item that you could do.

[01:13:33] Nathan: Mm-hmm. That any leader. Could do coming out of this episode.

[01:13:37] Simon: Yeah.

[01:13:37] Nathan: Is just say, you know what, let me send a voice note to if I have a team of five people,

[01:13:42] Simon: yeah.

[01:13:42] Nathan: Let me go spend five minutes total. Right? Like this is a very simple action to send a 62nd voice note to each person saying, Hey, you know? Right.

[01:13:50] Nathan: We’re at the end of a year. We’re any of this time like, Hey, I really appreciate the work that you did this year is just reflecting on 2025 and you know mm-hmm. It made a huge difference and we could not have gotten here without you. And I just want you to know that I’m. Honored to work with you and, and so proud of the work that you do.

[01:14:04] Simon: Right. And, and, and it’s incredible. ’cause I think once you start expressing gratitude, you access this sort of web of abundance.

[01:14:09] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[01:14:09] Simon: So I got invited to speak at a, at an event by Canon. It’s a Canon the camera company. Yeah. In, in the uk. And the person that put me forward as a speaker was someone that was in the queue about five years prior at an event I spoke at.

[01:14:23] Simon: And I stayed right into, the last person had a question they wanted to ask me. Yeah. And we, we briefly met maybe for about three or four minutes, speaking only a couple of minutes. And then she ended up following me on Instagram. And she put me in contact with Canon and she said, I wanna put you forward. I met you a few years back.

[01:14:38] Simon: I didn’t remember her, but she said, I just wanted to express my gratitude because you stayed behind to speak to every single one of us that had a question to ask you. And I’m helping Canon with this new event, and I will be delighted to put you forward as my way of expressing gratitude back. And so you access this web of reciprocity, the more gratitude you put out in the world, the more that comes back.

[01:15:00] Nathan: Ah. So if you just think about. All the relationships, like the creator world is built on relationships. Yeah. And it’s, it’s the little things. If you listen to a podcast episode mm-hmm. And you express the gratitude for the thing in there that you took away, or you follow up for a friend and like, Hey, I was just thinking about you, and really grateful for the time we spent together at that conference.

[01:15:19] Nathan: Right. It gives these little touch points. It’s just such a great place to hang out at

[01:15:22] Simon: it. It’s an appreciation of the fact that you never get to the top alone. Where you are is a result of all the people that have helped you get Right. Your partner, your children, your colleagues, your team. And that’s why, for me, the favorite part of my book is not any single chapter.

[01:15:38] Simon: It’s the acknowledgement section. Because when I wrote that, it just reminded me of how important the people around me have been.

[01:15:45] Nathan: Yeah.

[01:15:45] Simon: And the role they’ve played, uh, to help me get to where I’m today.

[01:15:50] Nathan: Hmm. I love that. Okay. The thing that I wanna end

[01:15:52] Simon: on mm-hmm.

[01:15:53] Nathan: Is what stops people from taking action.

[01:15:57] Simon: Hmm.

[01:15:57] Nathan: There’s so many things we’re like, I want to do this. But I’m not going to, or I can’t make myself. Or like as you’re working with clients or in your own life, what do you see that stops people from taking action?

[01:16:10] Simon: I think there are three things. First, two, fear and self-doubt.

[01:16:15] Nathan: Okay.

[01:16:16] Simon: First, fear of the unknown.

[01:16:17] Simon: Fear of what’s gonna happen. Mm-hmm. That stops a lot of us. Simply put, though, nothing beats fail at practice. You’ve just gotta chunk things down to the smallest possible action and then build from there. Second, self-doubt. Self-doubt stops us because we’re doubting our talent, we’re doubting our potential and our capability to adapt to whatever the world throws our way.

[01:16:39] Simon: And the third is trust. Trust in what you have to offer. And the way I put it is that there are always two sales that happen in business. The second is selling you to others, and the first is selling you to you. And until you can sell you to you well. The second will always remain a challenge. If you don’t see the value that you have to give to the world, how is anybody else gonna see it?

[01:17:03] Simon: But if you see worth in what you have to offer, other people will see it as well. They will feel you and they will wanna work with you in some form.

[01:17:12] Nathan: Yeah. Oh, I love that. How do you think about bringing this idea of energy to decision making? Because often when we’re making decisions, mm. Like the thing preventing us from action is knowing which decision to make.

[01:17:25] Nathan: Yeah. And so, and we’re like, if you told me like, Nathan, you need to make a decision on this. Like, all right, so pros and cons list, like, let’s spend all of our time in the intellectual space. But that’s not where you do it if you’re following energy,

[01:17:39] Simon: truth is deep down, you already know what the right decision is.

[01:17:42] Simon: We all do. It’s the courage to take that action. Mm-hmm. So to give an example, one of my favorite activities that I like doing with coaching clients when they’re in a mood of indecision is I take the two decisions. I’d say, I’m gonna put a coin in one hand. You’ve gotta choose which hand the coin is in.

[01:18:00] Simon: And if you choose the hand that a coin is correctly in, you choose this choice. Mm-hmm. If not, you choose the other. And often when they choose the hand without the coin, and they have to choose the alternative, I can tell from their body language, that wasn’t the result they were hoping for.

[01:18:15] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[01:18:16] Simon: They wanted to choose the hand the coin was in.

[01:18:18] Simon: And so that tells me deep down, we already know the path we want to take. It’s just discovering the courage to venture into the unknown.

[01:18:26] Nathan: Yeah. I’ve done this as well with, you know, when you’re trying to make a decision, and it sounds flippant, but you say flip a coin.

[01:18:32] Simon: Yeah.

[01:18:33] Nathan: You know, heads you do it, tails you don’t.

[01:18:35] Simon: Mm-hmm.

[01:18:36] Nathan: And so someone’s like, wait, you’re going to, you’re gonna put this decision down to a coin flip? And you’re like, yeah, of course. When that’s not what you’re doing, what you’re doing is you’re creating a, a moment. Mm-hmm. You’re creating an opportunity that you can react to.

[01:18:48] Simon: It’s a moment of insight.

[01:18:49] Nathan: Yeah.

[01:18:50] Simon: It’s a realization that you know the path you are meant to travel on.

[01:18:54] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[01:18:55] Simon: You just have to find the courage to now believe you can make it happen.

[01:18:59] Nathan: Yeah. So if you flip that coin or you choose the hand and it says like, yes, do option A, and you go, oh, I feel relief, I feel, you know, a sense of peace or purpose, then you’re like, okay, that’s what I’m meant to do.

[01:19:13] Nathan: Mm-hmm. And if you feel disappointment

[01:19:15] Simon: Yeah.

[01:19:16] Nathan: Or something like that, then you’re like, oh, well, okay. Mm-hmm. I like, I, I then go with that, you know, you, you not,

[01:19:22] Simon: and then that’s all about energy because if a vision is so compelling and magnetic in nature, it just pulls you forward.

[01:19:28] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[01:19:29] Simon: You don’t need motivation.

[01:19:30] Simon: It pulls you forward. That’s excitement. So you’re following what your heart is telling you. If your heart is saying, we we’re really excited about this, then you follow that wisdom. If you’re feeling tension inside, then of course that’s another sign. Yeah. It’s saying to you, maybe you’re not meant for this.

[01:19:44] Simon: Right. It’s why people talk about this term Monday Blues, you know, you finish the holiday, you finish the weekend, and you gotta go, you have to go back to the office on Monday, and people talk about the stress or this, uh, depressing feeling they get on a Monday. That is the physical manifestation of something that is draining you.

[01:20:00] Simon: When you do something that is not aligned to who you are or an extension of your skillset, you, you have this physical manifestation of fear, right. Of like, I’m, I’m not living the life I’m meant to live, but when you’re doing something that energizes you, you can’t wait until Monday.

[01:20:14] Nathan: Right.

[01:20:15] Simon: You’re looking forward to the emails coming in.

[01:20:16] Simon: Again, you’re looking forward to an ocean of possibility ahead. It’s a very different feeling.

[01:20:21] Nathan: Yeah. And I’m, what I’m realizing is the reaction that I want to have when I encounter that feeling and notice it. Mm. Curiosity,

[01:20:29] Simon: yeah.

[01:20:29] Nathan: Is then going, okay, why do I feel that way? Because it might be that I’m very frustrated with work overall, or it might be something, or it might be down to there’s one interaction

[01:20:38] Simon: Yeah.

[01:20:39] Nathan: That like subconscious, I go, oh, I’m going to run into this person and I haven’t given them the feedback that I’m supposed. You know, like I might realize, oh, I’m actually just worried about this interaction because I haven’t shown up authentically to who I am, and I’m afraid of that conversation. Mm-hmm.

[01:20:52] Nathan: It’s like, oh, well, that, I just need to seek out that conversation. Yeah. And I can let go of all of it.

[01:20:56] Simon: Absolutely. Absolutely. It’s, it’s not to avoid the things mm-hmm. Of discomfort, but to actually find a way to face some head on.

[01:21:03] Nathan: Yeah. I love that. Simon, this has been amazing.

[01:21:05] Simon: Thank you so much.

[01:21:06] Nathan: Thank you so much for coming on.

[01:21:07] Nathan: Where should people go to follow your work and, and see everything that you’re doing?

[01:21:12] Simon: I’m on all the major social media platforms, so you can find me on YouTube just by searching my name, uh, LinkedIn, Instagram. My handle is at Simon Alexander o. Uh, or you can check out my newsletter on my website, simon alexander on.com, which is who said by kid.

[01:21:27] Nathan: Thank you so much for using the platform. Nothing brings you more joy than playing a tiny role in powering the businesses of all these amazing creators.

[01:21:36] Simon: Thank you so much.

[01:21:37] Nathan: Yeah, thanks for coming on. If you enjoyed this episode, go to YouTube and search the Nathan Barry Show. Then hit subscribe and make sure to like the video and drop a comment.

[01:21:47] Nathan: I’d love to hear what some of your favorite parts of the video were, and also just who else do you think we should have on the show. Thank you so much for listening.

[00:00:00] Grace: When I started, we were on a hundred thousand subscribers on YouTube. Now we’re at over 14 million.

[00:00:05] Nathan: My guest today is Grace Miller. She’s the head of failure and experimentation at Flight Store. The company behind the dyer of a CEO podcast and a bunch of other big shows. If you’re growing a YouTube channel, what do you set as your core metrics?

[00:00:18] Grace: I definitely would say, I just said to Steve, I was like, we really need to do this, and the growth has just been insane.

[00:00:25] Nathan: Grace walks through the YouTube experience. They’ve run some that worked and some that failed in a huge way.

[00:00:30] Grace: YouTube community, now it’s called posts. Lots of people don’t share on it.

[00:00:33] Grace: I’m intrigued to why people don’t share because I think it can be a really good growth hack. There’s so much on YouTube that can be experimented with chapters is a massive one.

[00:00:41] Nathan: What’s another experiment that was maybe at a different scale?

[00:00:44] Grace: A big one right now is,

[00:00:45] Nathan: this episode was a fascinating look behind the scenes into one of the world’s largest podcasts.

[00:00:50] Nathan: And so if you’re as obsessed with creating great content as I am, you’re gonna love it. What are three examples that you’re like, okay, every creator should be doing this?

[00:00:56] Grace: The first one is something to do with whatever content you’re posting. [00:01:00] Second one is something like a whole or an engagement post. So getting people actually interacting with it and commenting.

[00:01:06] Grace: And then I say the third one.

[00:01:07] Nathan: Oh,

[00:01:12] Nathan: grace, welcome to the show.

[00:01:13] Grace: Thank you for having me.

[00:01:15] Nathan: Okay, so the Head of Failure and Experimentation, that is a title that I have never heard before. Yes. Is it a title that you’ve heard before with other creators?

[00:01:22] Grace: Before I came into the title, no. Now since being in the title, there’s a whole lot of experimentation, right?

[00:01:28] Grace: I didn’t even know that existed. And I think in the creative space, creators experiment themselves, but they just don’t call themselves head of experimentation.

[00:01:37] Nathan: Right.

[00:01:37] Grace: So it’s more of a behavior than I would say it is a title alone.

[00:01:42] Nathan: Yes.

[00:01:42] Grace: And that everyone should be doing it. Um, but it’s really cool to have the title and now meet other people in the industry with.

[00:01:48] Grace: Similar titles as well now.

[00:01:50] Nathan: So I wanna dive into a couple of the experiments, maybe some that failed and some that succeeded.

[00:01:55] Grace: Yes.

[00:01:55] Nathan: Um, and we can talk about, you know, both aspects of it.

[00:01:59] Grace: Yeah.

[00:01:59] Nathan: But before [00:02:00] we do that, for anyone who doesn’t know dire of A CEO

[00:02:03] Grace: Yeah.

[00:02:03] Nathan: Flight story, all of that. Like give the high level context.

[00:02:07] Nathan: Yeah. And, and maybe a few numbers, because the scale is pretty ridiculous.

[00:02:10] Grace: Yes. It’s actually my, um, four years today at the D of a c.

[00:02:13] Nathan: Oh, congratulations. I

[00:02:14] Grace: know. It’s, well, thank you. It’s flown by.

[00:02:15] Nathan: Thank you for celebrating your anniversary here on the show.

Of

[00:02:18] Grace: course. Had to come talk about it.

[00:02:20] Nathan: Yes.

[00:02:20] Grace: Um, but the D of a CEO has been around for about five and a bit years now.

[00:02:24] Grace: Okay.

That’s,

[00:02:25] Nathan: I would’ve thought it was way longer than that.

[00:02:28] Grace: Yeah. More when I say five and a half years to camera. Yes. On YouTube full scale production. Mm-hmm. And when I started four years ago, we were on a hundred thousand subscribers on YouTube. Okay. And then now up till today, we’re at over 14 million.

[00:02:44] Grace: So it has been insane growth.

[00:02:46] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:02:46] Grace: Over, well that’s four years, over four years. Right. It’s gone from a hundred K to 14 million, which is wild. And it’s also gone, almost developed as a podcast from when I first started listening. It was very entrepreneurial, business focused. Now it’s developed with [00:03:00] Steven as he’s grown up and Right.

[00:03:02] Grace: Become even and even more diverse entrepreneur. And it’s now covering topics all around the world from people that are the best in their industries. And a year and a half ago we started Flight Story, which is the media company that the DI of a CEO is now under.

[00:03:18] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:03:18] Grace: And that’s a podcast agency, but also has creators as well.

[00:03:21] Grace: So the thesis behind it is we create, um, media companies or podcasts and help creators develop in that. Mm-hmm. Um, so we’ve gone from just the DAEO to also podcast with Paul Brunson. He has a podcast called We Need to Talk. Um, we have one called Begin Again with Davina McCall, who’s. UK broadcast icon. Um, and then the line with Dr.

[00:03:44] Grace: Kristen Holmes from Whoop.

[00:03:45] Nathan: Okay.

[00:03:46] Grace: Which is, um, really, really interesting. It’s all about her interviewing, um, coaches or sports people and how they have become the best in their industry. And then we recently, um, didn’t start this one from the beginning, but Hot, smart, rich with Maggie Sellers. [00:04:00] So she started her podcast a year ago and then a few months ago, um, flight Story partnered with her to help her build it even further.

[00:04:07] Grace: So they’re the current podcast on our site.

[00:04:09] Nathan: Yeah. Oh, that’s amazing. So you get to learn not only from DI of A CEO, but also from all these other shows that, that you’re running.

[00:04:16] Grace: Yeah. We learned from all the other shows. And then we also have other divisions. So we have a flight socials division, which is creators, um, specifically on short form.

[00:04:25] Grace: We also have a product division, so get to learn a lot from e-comm, um, and then also flight books, which is physical books. Mm-hmm. And helping publish, um, creators as authors.

[00:04:36] Nathan: I love that. Okay, so diving into. Some experiments.

[00:04:40] Grace: Yes.

[00:04:41] Nathan: What’s an experiment that you ran that you think would be interesting to share with the, like the professional creators who Yeah.

[00:04:48] Nathan: You know, would be fascinated by that,

[00:04:49] Grace: that failed or succeeded?

[00:04:50] Nathan: Ooh, whichever one you wanna start with.

[00:04:52] Grace: I think one that was really interesting is we have a Doac Clips channel. Okay. Which is still, um, [00:05:00] horizontal clips on YouTube, but it’s shortened versions. So,

[00:05:03] Nathan: so there’s not shorts. It’s,

[00:05:05] Grace: yeah, it’s, it’s not YouTube short it’s clips, it’s not shorts, it’s clips.

[00:05:07] Grace: Um, we call them clips and then it gets confusing with long, short form social media, but it’s, um, 10 to 30 minute cutdowns of the podcast.

[00:05:16] Nathan: Okay.

[00:05:16] Grace: And we experimented, we actually put one out every day and we experimented with doubling output. So we thought, okay, if we put two out every day, we’ll double views.

[00:05:26] Nathan: Right.

[00:05:27] Grace: Basic hypothesis. And I think with experimenting it can be as simple as that to see does it or does it not work? Um, we put it out and it was a massive failure. It didn’t double views it. Actually decreased reach.

[00:05:40] Nathan: Oh, totally.

[00:05:40] Grace: Than what we thought would happen. So we thought, okay, say we get 10,000 views on each clip.

[00:05:46] Grace: We’re like 20,000 views. No. It was so much lower than what we actually expected to happen from it. And so it’s, we then pivoted back and we’re like, okay, we’ll go back to one episode, a uh, one clip a day, um, to then retest and [00:06:00] see what other areas we can experiment in.

[00:06:01] Nathan: So the measure of success for this experiment, because that’s a very, a lot of people are think like, oh, let’s try this.

[00:06:06] Nathan: And they’re like, great, what, what’s your hypothesis? What, you know, how are you measuring success? And a lot of people are like, oh, well I was just trying an experiment. It’s like, it’s not an experiment unless you define the criteria.

[00:06:15] Grace: Yeah.

[00:06:16] Nathan: But your measure for success was total views on the channel.

[00:06:18] Grace: Yes.

[00:06:19] Nathan: So not views per clip necessarily?

[00:06:21] Grace: No. Yeah. We were, we thought, okay, in a 30 day period, how many more views can we get? And does that equate to the time or effort that’s been put into creating these clips? Right. And so making sure it balances out that the views are justified by how much more work is going into it.

[00:06:38] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:06:38] Grace: Um, and it wasn’t, it didn’t work at all.

[00:06:41] Nathan: So did, so total views. Yes. In the three day period, stayed flat or went down,

[00:06:45] Grace: went stayed flat. They didn’t increase but on double the number. Yeah. Our hypothesis was double and they did not get to anywhere near double.

[00:06:53] Nathan: And then so for that to be the case views per clip

[00:06:56] Grace: Yes.

[00:06:57] Nathan: Went down pretty substantially.

[00:06:59] Grace: Yeah. [00:07:00]

[00:07:00] Nathan: Okay. Do you have a theory on why?

[00:07:02] Grace: I actually think it’s something to do with the algorithm and maybe posting multiple clips a day.

[00:07:06] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:07:07] Grace: I know other channels can do that. Um, but seeing the growth of our current clips channel then going to two clips a day, it’s finding its place in the algorithm I think.

[00:07:18] Grace: And when you look at the YouTube algorithm, how many times if you actually really delve into it, very nerdy, but how many times do you see a video in your feed from the same creator over and over? So you’re almost cannibalizing your own content if you’re posting multiple a day because you probably can, can’t get that many.

[00:07:35] Grace: You’re feed slots

[00:07:36] Nathan: you to show that. Yeah.

[00:07:36] Grace: Yeah. Maybe within the subscriptions feed. Okay. You might come up multiple times, but I think in the like homepage feed. That you are rarely seeing unless it’s on different channels.

[00:07:47] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:07:47] Grace: So for example, the sideman, I follow multiple of their accounts. Okay. So I might get a short then a long form, then another long form.

[00:07:54] Grace: But from a different channel when it’s on the same channel, I actually don’t think you can get as many [00:08:00] placements on a homepage feed.

[00:08:01] Nathan: So is that why you see so many creators running two, three, sometimes four YouTube channels?

[00:08:07] Grace: Yeah, I think so. And I think, yes. Last night I was speaking to some of the creators and um, one couple said they had six channels and I thought, Hmm, that’s interesting.

[00:08:16] Grace: And combined, I think they had about 60 million subscribers.

[00:08:20] Nathan: Okay.

[00:08:20] Grace: But the proof is there. I think if they’re not only for volume, but I actually think for topics as well, especially on YouTube, knowing why people are coming. And so they had a gaming channel or a lifestyle channel, right? And

[00:08:34] Nathan: so they were fairly distinct.

[00:08:35] Nathan: Yeah. It wasn’t just the clips versus,

[00:08:37] Grace: yeah, it wasn’t, I don’t think their was volume. It was definitely keeping different topics apart, which is another thing ’cause I think people go into YouTube and they go, especially if they’re more lifestyle or vlog and think I’m in a service everyone, it’s like, actually you really have to know what people are coming for and whether it’s you as a person or a podcast and understanding why they’d come back [00:09:00] and keeping the topics similar, but still diverse enough to bring in new people.

[00:09:04] Nathan: So how many channels do you have for diary of a CEO?

[00:09:07] Grace: We have, so we have our main channel. Mm-hmm. And then we have the clips channel, which is the short form, well, horizontal, short form Clipse. Yes. Then we have, um, a separate short channel, which we tested on, but now we’ve gone back to shorts on our main channel.

[00:09:22] Grace: So that one’s kind of,

[00:09:23] Nathan: I wanna dive

into

[00:09:24] Grace: that in a second. Um, then left aside, and then we also have behind the diary, which is Steve’s flog.

[00:09:28] Nathan: Okay. So four channels?

[00:09:30] Grace: 3, 3, 4 for di of a C. Yeah. Okay. But William. Yeah, the short one’s being made redundant.

[00:09:36] Nathan: Some, some of these other channels that you’re running.

[00:09:37] Nathan: Yes. Um, you’re, sorry, let’s take another podcast. Yeah. That you’re running, you know, now you’re sort of spinning it up and, and, you know, growing a new show. Yeah. Are you running 1, 2, 3 channels for one of those shows? What’s the process one

[00:09:51] Grace: right now? Okay. So the goal behind it is grow that one channel.

[00:09:55] Grace: Mm-hmm. And then we can spin off.

[00:09:57] Nathan: And what, what’s the, the mark where you would think about, oh, [00:10:00] maybe it’s time to spin off. Is that 50,000 subscribers, 500,000?

[00:10:03] Grace: I think it actually depends on where, like a multitude of factors. So we have so many different frameworks depending on right, where we want something, whether it’s a podcast being acquired or how we want a, um, episode to go out.

[00:10:14] Grace: And I actually think it’s a multitude of things from views, subscribers, but also retention. So how engaged are they? Would those people convert to another format? And also the length, if your podcast is 30 minutes, you’re probably not going to go and create another channel of 30 minute clips.

[00:10:30] Nathan: Right.

[00:10:31] Grace: Um, whereas if it’s, for example, like a Huberman where he’s four hours, of course he has the chance to go version and cut it down.

[00:10:37] Grace: Yeah. Yeah. And then you think it brings a different audience as well. So short form, short form clips, weather, horizontal, we needed a better name.

[00:10:45] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:10:45] Grace: Um, to stink. Um, but I would say for human men, he could definitely do that because they would bring a different audience to who would come and consume.

[00:10:54] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:10:54] Grace: The full length. But you then also get the conversion of people jumping over to the full length.

[00:10:59] Nathan: Right. [00:11:00] Okay. And then something that is widely debated. Yeah. And it sounds like you’ve experimented both ways is Yes. Whether or not you, your shorts mm-hmm. The vertical, you YouTube show shorts should be on the main channel.

[00:11:11] Grace: Yeah.

[00:11:11] Nathan: Or should be separate. Like, uh, pat Flynn would be an example with his Pokemon Channel. Yeah. Uh, deep Pocket Monster. He has his. Long form horizontal channel. Yeah. Which I think is a million and a half, 2 million subscribers. Yes. And then he has a shorts channel that’s also a million and a half, 2 million subscribers.

[00:11:27] Nathan: Yeah. And he says that they’re entirely different viewers. Like there’s overlap.

[00:11:31] Grace: Yeah.

[00:11:31] Nathan: But like, it’s, it’s not the exact same people.

[00:11:33] Grace: Yeah.

[00:11:34] Nathan: And so he’s very much in the camp as last time I talked to him Yeah. Of like keep them separate.

[00:11:38] Grace: Yeah.

[00:11:38] Nathan: What’s your take on that?

[00:11:40] Grace: We experimented with it for a while and on YouTube short specifically, we tested off channel and on channel we tested off channel first because we obviously thought as every YouTuber thinks it’s gonna cannibalize your long form content.

[00:11:55] Grace: Right. It’s bringing a different audience. Um, but there’s a lot of missed opportunities. So you can’t link [00:12:00] the video on your main channel. If you’re posting a short and it’s on a separate channel. Okay. Whereas if the short is on your main channel, you can link it so people are going directly from the short to the long form, super easy conversion funnel.

[00:12:12] Grace: Um, and so, but again, then it begs to the question of what I said before of taking up places on a feed. Do you still get the same placements if it’s all in one channel? We now fully believe on the same channel is the best way.

[00:12:27] Nathan: Okay.

[00:12:27] Grace: And we tested that across all of our podcasts. So we tested it on some of the newer podcasts first, which is a really interesting dynamic.

[00:12:34] Grace: And they’re actually growing faster than the di of a CEO Mm. At if they were where the di of a CO was now. Right. Um, so tested it, it actually works. It converts. Obviously they have shorter, average free duration because they’re coming from a short form video. Yeah. But the actual conversion funnel is so much smoother and you’re getting all of the views on your main channel.

[00:12:55] Grace: So YouTube’s seeing that as more people coming there. Rather than separating out people [00:13:00] going to other channels and not coming to that main channel. So we’ve seen a lot faster growth since then.

[00:13:05] Nathan: So when you say you tested it, a lot of people, would you look, I look at the tests that they ran. Yeah. And I’m like, you did it and you went off of vibes.

[00:13:15] Grace: Yeah.

[00:13:16] Nathan: What I wanna know is how would, how did you actually measure those tests and what, you know, what was the time period? How would you know? Yeah. Like, okay, we fully believe based on this data that this is the right decision for us.

[00:13:27] Grace: Yeah. We, we have a bit of a cheat code ’cause we have other podcasts,

[00:13:31] Nathan: right?

[00:13:31] Grace: So it’s slightly easier because we can test things on a podcast and then apply it and test it to other podcasts to see, does that hypothesis still hold? So we tested it on other shows with that were actually starting out. So you can kind of see the growth more. And it was understanding how many people convert from those short form.

[00:13:50] Grace: Does it hurt the long form? ’cause I know people say. Putting short form then cannibalizes your average duration of your long form episode. Right.

[00:13:58] Nathan: I’ve heard that a lot. Yeah. I saw someone on X [00:14:00] saying that, like, you know, they were very strongly saying like, you should never do this, never combine them.

[00:14:04] Grace: Yeah.

[00:14:05] Nathan: And then I talked to, uh, the team at seven X Content who edits this show. Yeah. Right. And they, they work with a lot of, you know, a lot of YouTubers, a lot of podcasts, and they were like, yeah, no. I mean they’re in the same camp as you of like, no, I’d come keep them on the same channel.

[00:14:18] Grace: I know it’s been almost like a myth for a while.

[00:14:21] Grace: Mm-hmm. And I do understand maybe it’s also different industries and niches

[00:14:24] Nathan: Right.

[00:14:25] Grace: That would have different behaviors. Because I think as much as things can be applicable to all of YouTube, there’s some things that could just be a specific niche as well. Yeah. Like the way Mr. Beast edits would be very different to the way a podcast should edit.

[00:14:37] Grace: Mm-hmm. Because they’re different types of retention. Yeah. And different lengths and understanding. Maybe you’re not gonna cut a podcast every three seconds, um, to a different angle. ’cause it would be jarring for someone. Yeah. Um, but then someone beast esque would probably be able to do that and get away with it to keep retention.

[00:14:54] Nathan: Right. So

[00:14:55] Grace: I, I understand why people might still be worried about the shorts, but we’ve seen [00:15:00] really great growth from it. And it’s not about, uh, the views haven’t dropped, put it that way.

[00:15:05] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:15:05] Grace: The, yeah. Long form views haven’t changed at all when we added shorts.

[00:15:10] Nathan: Okay. That’s helpful to know. Yeah. I think a lot of people love that example.

[00:15:14] Nathan: And I love how you’re saying, you know, we have multiple shows and so you can test that. Right. You actually could have a control group. Yeah. And, you know, it’s like we’re not quite statistical significant and like testing this across a hundred shows. Yeah. But, you know, you can do it across a handful. What are some of the other myths or mistakes that you see people making or they’re like, oh, I, I believe this, and you’re like, I I don’t think that’s true.

[00:15:36] Nathan: Ooh,

[00:15:37] Grace: I think, um, YouTube community, or now it’s called Posts.

[00:15:42] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:15:43] Grace: Lots of people don’t share on it.

[00:15:45] Nathan: Okay.

[00:15:45] Grace: But I, and I think more because of time, but I. I’m intrigued to why people don’t share because I think it can be a really good growth hack.

[00:15:52] Nathan: Okay.

[00:15:53] Grace: Because you’re getting a placement in the feed when you share.

[00:15:56] Grace: I would not to give away all my tips and tricks, but I would [00:16:00] put it on a day that you’re not sharing any other content.

[00:16:02] Nathan: Okay. So you might, if you were doing three clips a week or, or like your long form and then three clips a week. Yeah. It’s like, okay, well there’s three more days that you didn’t post anything.

[00:16:10] Grace: Yeah. I, and if you see it, you, the more you think about posts, you’ll probably see them way more. But they’re always in your feed. They’re in the subscriber feed, they come up in the homepage feed and I think they’re really underutilized. ’cause I’ve done a lot of I deep diving into them. And when I go on pages, hardly anyone uses them.

[00:16:30] Grace: And then the creators that do use them are obviously popping up because YouTube’s algorithm says, oh, it’s a post. We’re gonna share that. Um, so I think posts. People obviously are not even thinking about, or maybe thought wasn’t very useful, but that is a big one. That is kind of another way to get in that algorithm,

[00:16:48] Nathan: I think from working in the software side of things.

[00:16:50] Nathan: Yeah. Where I know that you end up with a product manager who owns a certain feature Yeah. You know, within a company and they have metrics for usage and [00:17:00] adoption and all of that. Yeah. And so you know that their job is to Yeah. Drive adoption in that. And so I think about something like posts or community where there is a product manager at YouTube Yes.

[00:17:11] Nathan: Who their job is to drive that. And so they’re like, okay, what levers can I pull? And so like, oh, if someone uses this, then we’re gonna get it featured here.

[00:17:18] Grace: Yeah.

[00:17:19] Nathan: And so it’s like, give them what they want.

[00:17:21] Grace: Oh,

[00:17:22] Nathan: because they’re here to reward you with it.

[00:17:24] Grace: Yeah. And they put, they create the features for a reason.

[00:17:27] Nathan: Right.

[00:17:27] Grace: And then for example, like when you jump on that feature, they’re going to push you like Instagram with their current translations feature. They’re gonna push people that say yell, I’ll add that onto my video.

[00:17:37] Nathan: Right.

[00:17:37] Grace: Because they want. People to be using the feature. So why not actually go and be a first mover in that area and try the feature out?

[00:17:44] Grace: Um, so I think definitely the post feature, the other ones on YouTube translations is a big one that’s, um, coming out ’cause they’ve obviously allowed audio tracks now to other creators. Mm-hmm. Um, the thumbnail testing and title testing tool that I think is now available to [00:18:00] everyone.

[00:18:00] Nathan: Okay.

[00:18:00] Grace: And is maybe one of the most interesting tools that we’ve finally been able to use.

[00:18:05] Grace: ’cause it’s based on statistical significance.

[00:18:07] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:18:07] Grace: Whereas all of the other tools before were amazing for thumbnail testing, but they don’t have the backend data to be able to prove Right. What does and doesn’t work on YouTube. So it’s finally, it’s like, yes, we finally have a tool that is actually in app, um, and we can use that has real data.

[00:18:25] Nathan: So what kind of content should someone be putting in posts? Like what are three examples that you’re like, okay, every creator should be doing this?

[00:18:30] Grace: Yeah, I’d say the first one is something to do with whatever content you’re posting. So. Whether it’s the next day after it’s like, Hey, this just came out because we’ve tested that and we’ve seen when you put a post out, people then go through to that episode.

[00:18:43] Nathan: Okay.

[00:18:43] Grace: And it’s really interesting to experiment with it. ’cause you can see a spike when people go to that from that post to the episode. Right. So it’s not just, oh, I’ll put out the post and hope it does something. You can really see the data.

[00:18:54] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:18:54] Grace: Second one is something like a poll or an engagement post.

[00:18:58] Grace: So getting people [00:19:00] actually interacting with it and commenting so that the algorithms saying, oh my God, this person is really engaged. Yep. With that content. And then they’re gonna be serving you the other content. Content from more from that channel. Yeah. Yeah, definitely. And then I’d say the third one maybe is something to get feedback from the viewers.

[00:19:16] Grace: So not only in the comment section, but being able to actually have almost like a conversation thread with them.

[00:19:22] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:19:22] Grace: To get real feedback to help you produce better content, whether it’s. A podcast and what guests they want next, whether it’s a challenge, videos and they suggest new challenges, but actually getting them in that feedback loop, um, can be really valuable first party like information as well.

[00:19:38] Nathan: Well, what’s fascinating about that is you could have a basic flywheel

[00:19:42] Grace: mm-hmm.

[00:19:42] Nathan: That gets you, you know, all of those things. So, so you’re saying, you know, I’m gonna be posting four video content four times a week. Yep. The long form and then three shorts or clips, and then, you know, fill in the other days with posts and they’re pretty, you know, we’re talking, it could [00:20:00] be a 15, 20 minute lift.

[00:20:02] Nathan: Yeah. Total for the week to add in posts.

[00:20:04] Grace: Definitely. Yeah. It’s, and it shouldn’t be hard to do something like that. It could be really quick. It could just be a quick. Sentence and call to action than a link to your episode.

[00:20:13] Nathan: Have you tried like LinkedIn style posts where it’s actually storytelling or something else that’s

[00:20:20] Grace: Yeah.

[00:20:20] Grace: We experimented, if you scroll quite far back. Okay. It was maybe a year and a half ago, um, in our posts and we experimented with different quotes. Mm-hmm. Actually, maybe even, yeah, I’d say a year and a half ago. And we experimented with different quotes, photos behind the scenes, um, really tested, like what works, what doesn’t.

[00:20:39] Grace: Right. Um, to see like, even though you have like almost like carousel or multi-image options to like, does that get better engagement than just text? Yeah. Um, so there’s so much just in one tiny feature that people aren’t even using. To then build out

[00:20:55] Nathan: And you found that it was worth going into that level of detail, or you said you scroll [00:21:00] way back and so that makes me think that it wasn’t as worth the effort.

[00:21:03] Grace: I think it depends on what you’re trying to do. Like that was great for if you just want engagement on that specific post, we do more now linking through to the episodes.

[00:21:11] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:21:11] Grace: Or alternatively you can also see that we’ll um, do posts that link through to our clips channel. Okay. So we’ll post on the main channel saying, Hey, this clip out

[00:21:21] Nathan: that lets you cross promote.

[00:21:21] Grace: Yeah. So instead of like what I said before about shorts not being able to cross promote if they’re do on a different channel

[00:21:27] Nathan: mm-hmm.

[00:21:28] Grace: It’s kind of a hack where you can promote on posts and link another video. Right. So I could, if I had a YouTube channel, I could link your video on my post basically.

[00:21:37] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:21:37] Nathan: Well, what’s interesting is you might pick up someone where it’s like, okay, I saw that this. Two and a half hour episode with Jefferson Fisher dropped. And I would love to watch that, but like, I don’t have to, and you know, but then you link to the clip of it.

[00:21:48] Grace: Yes.

[00:21:48] Nathan: That’s 15 minutes and it’s like, all right, well I’ll,

[00:21:50] Grace: yeah.

[00:21:51] Nathan: Oh, like that will be my gateway into the episode.

[00:21:53] Grace: Oh, a hundred percent.

And,

[00:21:54] Nathan: and go from there.

[00:21:55] Grace: Yeah. But there’s so much on YouTube that can be experimented with, like, if it’s really, [00:22:00] post is so tiny compared to Yeah. Other things like chapters is a massive one. Specifically in podcasting, I think people sometimes skip over because it seems hard, like

[00:22:10] Nathan: putting chapters in.

[00:22:10] Grace: Yeah.

[00:22:11] Nathan: Okay.

[00:22:12] Grace: There’s some podcasts still that I’m like, why don’t you add chapters? But I dunno if they’re maybe experimenting with it for retention and average re duration.

[00:22:19] Nathan: So are you, okay, so let’s talk about chapters. Yeah. And it sounds like that’s another thing that you believe Yeah. That other, you know, podcasts on YouTube should adopt.

[00:22:26] Grace: Yes. Yeah. All creators as well. I think if you’re making a vlog That’s right. An hour or an hour and a half. Even 45 minutes to be able to allow people to skip because YouTube created the jump ahead feature where if they see someone skipping, they’ll a button pop pops up, jump

[00:22:43] Nathan: head to that.

[00:22:43] Grace: Yeah. And it basically, it pops up and says, jump ahead.

[00:22:47] Grace: And you can click that and it takes you to the section in the video where most people have skipped to, which is almost a growth hack to see. So I could do it on someone else’s podcast and look at it and see where people are skipping to. [00:23:00] And usually you’ll see a lot of people skip the start. Mm-hmm. If it’s a trailer.

[00:23:03] Grace: Right. Or a summary. ’cause they’re like, I already know I wanna watch this.

[00:23:06] Nathan: I watched the trailer on Instagram, that’s what got me here on the

[00:23:09] Grace: shorts.

[00:23:10] Nathan: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:23:10] Grace: Um, and so you can really see throughout how it progresses in the skip ahead or jump ahead, sorry. Um, but then chapter wise. It actually gives people, if you’re adding chapters, a section to know what to skip to.

[00:23:23] Grace: Right. In a good way. Because you don’t want people coming and then bouncing because they can’t find the section

[00:23:28] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:23:28] Grace: That they wanted to come for, but also then you don’t wanna hurt retention. So it’s an interesting balance of making the chapters worthwhile clicking for mm-hmm. But then not too obvious that they then skip to them.

[00:23:42] Nathan: Oh, that’s an interesting balance. Yeah. Okay. Are there any other, um, either myths or mistakes that you see people making

[00:23:48] Grace: thumbnails? Yeah. So many different, I think people try and copy other thumbnails and I actually saw, not gonna name the creator, but I saw they copied the exact thumbnail and title for an [00:24:00] episode.

[00:24:00] Nathan: Okay.

[00:24:00] Grace: Um, and. It didn’t get anywhere near, I think it didn’t even get over a hundred views, but the episode on dac, actually this is a great myth. I’m gonna restart this story ’cause I think it could be really interesting. Um, I creator copied the exact thumbnail and title of a Dicy episode and the DA episode got a few million views.

[00:24:20] Grace: That Creator only got a hundred views on the episode. And I think what’s really interesting is people can think, oh, title thumbnail copy algorithm thinks I’m the same creator or channel and it’s breaking that myth of being actually no. Right. If you create original content that people are going to like, they’ll probably stick around for longer than actually just trying to copy someone else.

[00:24:42] Grace: And you’ll probably see a million channels on YouTube now looking the exact same thumbnail style with the white text, red highlight. And it’s finding your own spin on it. Mm-hmm. Even if you have still the two faces of the creator, uh, the host and guest and still have texts in the middle, I think [00:25:00] there’s a way to.

[00:25:01] Grace: Take a spin on it. And even the whole format, like I saw, um, or I know a creator in the US who has started a podcast, interesting name called The Rubdown. Okay. But, but the concept it, when he showed me it, it gave me goosebumps because it reminded me of early days of chicken shop date with Amelia.

[00:25:21] Nathan: Okay.

[00:25:22] Grace: And his concept is, um, they’re, instead of sudden chairs, they’re on massage tables, getting a deep tissue massage while having a conversation.

[00:25:31] Grace: I don’t think you get the same eye contact as

[00:25:33] Nathan: Yep.

[00:25:33] Grace: Our conversation. But I think it’s a really interesting spin on podcasting and I’m like, that is nice to see people changing it up, revolutionizing what podcasting is, um, and trying new things instead of just sticking to the traditional thumbnails that are out there or the titles.

[00:25:48] Nathan: Right. Yeah. There’s so many things in that where, you know, you think about the hook that you’re going for. Yeah. And is it memorable? Could you talk about it? And it’s like, oh, we have another. 90 minute [00:26:00] long form podcast interview with the same guest as everyone else.

[00:26:03] Grace: Yeah.

[00:26:03] Nathan: And you can’t really, like, if we think of word of mouth as a growth angle, like I, I can’t articulate that show in an interesting way or that sort of thing, but you’re talking about this, this show, the Rubdown.

[00:26:14] Grace: Yeah.

[00:26:14] Nathan: Right. It has a title where you’re like, what’s going on there?

[00:26:16] Grace: Yes.

[00:26:17] Nathan: And then you’re saying, and like this is a little wild, but they’re getting massages on massage tables. Well, you know, it gives you something that you can talk about and explain. Yeah. And someone’s like, I don’t know how I feel about that, but I guess I’ll click the thumbnail and watch it.

[00:26:29] Grace: Exactly. And now. And now I bet you’ll see it in your feed somewhere and you’ll be like, oh my God, that’s that podcast. That’s, yes. And it really stands out. And it was like Chicken Shop Date. She’s in the chicken shop.

[00:26:38] Nathan: Right.

[00:26:38] Grace: I know it technically wasn’t a podcast, but it is a YouTube format. Mm-hmm. And I think it’s finding that even the format of Mr.

[00:26:45] Grace: Beast now, I would say people call the Mr. Beast format, whereas really it’s almost like challenge videos or

[00:26:51] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:26:52] Grace: Um, that. Almost becoming the new genre of your YouTube or podcasting format is quite an [00:27:00] interesting new experiment and strategy to go down.

[00:27:03] Nathan: Okay, so now I wanna go into an experiment that worked.

[00:27:06] Grace: Yes.

[00:27:06] Nathan: What’s one that comes to mind that you’re like, okay, this is something that you learned a lot from and, and it drove results for the channel.

[00:27:11] Grace: A small one or a big one?

[00:27:13] Nathan: Let’s do both. Let’s start small and then go big.

[00:27:15] Grace: Uh, small experiment we’ve been running is the collab feature on YouTube where the video appears on the creator’s page.

[00:27:23] Grace: Well, both creators pages,

[00:27:24] Nathan: right?

[00:27:25] Grace: So if I posted a video, it would appear on mine, but also if I tagged you, it would appear on yours. And it’s a really interesting dynamic because you’re getting the views and subscribers from both pages engaging. And so you’re able to see how it reaches new algorithms. And I think it’s worth playing around on every channel because.

[00:27:43] Grace: You’ll have different experiences to what we would’ve experienced, but you’ll find it interesting to see like, where does it get served? And also understanding how does the other person who’s tagged have an audience that comes and maybe has a different retention. Mm-hmm. Or they might come from [00:28:00] different places rather than the homepage they’re, or coming from external.

[00:28:02] Grace: So seeing how that works, um, it’s been a really interesting, and not only the collab, but also the tag feature in titles. So seeing whether that does or doesn’t work. I actually, I think collab works really well. I’m not sold on the title tag tagging feature yet.

[00:28:20] Nathan: How did you design the experiment around collabs?

[00:28:22] Grace: Yeah, it’s more. Less statistically significant. Yeah. And more we, I kind of, not to go too deep into experimentation, but I kind of see it in a few ways of, some are great stat Stig stats. What did I say? Um, some are great stats experiments, some are more knowledge based experiments. Mm-hmm. So I see it as if we can test this and see can we learn more about the algorithm that will then help us with other experiments, that’s gonna be a win.

[00:28:49] Grace: So it’s more for the, um, tagging, what can we learn that will help us? So can we learn more about other creators algorithms and how they work? Do they work the same as ours [00:29:00] or not? Um, but also setting it like we set parameters of how many views or new followers do we hope to get from this episode? And did it hit that or did it just exceed it by tagging that person as well?

[00:29:15] Grace: Um, and what sort of growth has that had from it?

[00:29:18] Nathan: Yeah, that makes sense. Okay. What’s another experiment that was. Maybe at a different scale.

[00:29:23] Grace: Yeah, a big one right now, which I touched on before, is like localization and dubbing. And I was chatting last night to some of the creators about it as well, and I didn’t realize how many other people are doing it.

[00:29:34] Grace: And the industry is really picking up on it right now. So not only YouTube, but also Instagram now has the feature of the translations and we’ve been experimenting with it for, we started three years ago testing it. Um, it wasn’t the time, but we started testing, seeing what worked, what didn’t, um, tested different channels.

[00:29:54] Grace: So there’s kind of different ways you can do it. You can do human um, translations or AI translations. [00:30:00] And then YouTube’s obviously added the feature now where you can add the translations to your video. So instead of what Mr. Beast used to have was his English channel and a Spanish channel.

[00:30:09] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:30:09] Grace: He now has all of his audios in one channel.

[00:30:13] Grace: So you are not only having English subscribers, you’re able to have subscribers all over the world on one channel.

[00:30:19] Nathan: Okay.

[00:30:19] Grace: And I would bet money on it that that’s why his growth has been so big because he’s had so many languages added, he’s a global

[00:30:26] Nathan: audience.

[00:30:27] Grace: Yeah. It’s, it’s such an easy growth hack.

[00:30:30] Grace: Obviously. It takes time and effort to make sure the quality’s good. Mm-hmm. And I know a lot of theirs we’re still human dubbing, but with AI dubbing now,

[00:30:38] Nathan: so is that, where are you cloning a voice in 11 labs and then pulling

[00:30:42] Grace: trans? There’s a few ways. Yeah. What, how happening you do so many, there’s, so YouTube has an in-app feature.

[00:30:47] Nathan: Okay.

[00:30:47] Grace: I sound like I’m selling for YouTube. Um,

[00:30:50] Nathan: I mean, you know, I love it. YouTube has done a lot for, for you and Steven, so, you know, you can,

[00:30:55] Grace: um, we, we actually can’t use it ’cause So YouTube’s in app feature, but you can [00:31:00] only use it for under one hour. Oh. So your clip has, or episode has to be under one hour and,

[00:31:04] Nathan: and you’re like, that’s not how we roll.

[00:31:06] Grace: Yeah. I’m like, why, why not? Slightly longer? Um, but so they’ve built an amazing tool that you can use it in app. I think there’s a lot of work to go though. Mm-hmm. Like, it’s good. It’s not. Controversial, not amazing.

[00:31:17] Nathan: Right.

[00:31:18] Grace: Um, I, even though I just said amazing tool, but I think it’s, um, a really good build on what other platforms have offered.

[00:31:25] Grace: ’cause they currently, a lot of platforms weren’t offering localization’s the fact YouTube and now offering localization across so many different audios. Um, and then being able to get creators to post that. They’re not only reaching like a wider audience themselves as YouTube as a platform, but creators are also benefiting from it as well, which is nice.

[00:31:45] Grace: Right. So to use that, it has to be under one hour. I think there’s some improvements to go right now from conversations I’ve had. A lot of people are still using outside platforms and importing the audio. Um, and then the other part is it’s audio only right now on [00:32:00] YouTube, so you can’t do lip syncing.

[00:32:04] Nathan: Right.

[00:32:04] Grace: Whereas Instagram’s feature is incredible. I got a video the other day in Hindi. And I could, it was English. Okay. I didn’t even realize she was speaking Hindi until I saw the tiny translated button.

[00:32:17] Nathan: Mm.

[00:32:17] Grace: So I think seeing what Instagram is doing is really, really cool. How innovative it is. Um, but it’s, I love YouTube ’cause they experimented it and they were a first mover.

[00:32:27] Grace: Of testing what worked and what didn’t, and they’re building it themselves to try and get better. So, and they’ve got translated thumbnails as well now, which has been a really interesting,

[00:32:36] Nathan: so we do this thing on the podcast. We always talk about how to grow creator businesses, and I’ve realized I don’t actually talk about my business.

[00:32:43] Nathan: Sometimes people will ask in the comments. What do you actually do? Are you just a podcaster full-time? So I’m interrupting this show to tell you that I actually run a software company that is built entirely to help creators grow their online business. It’s called Kit. You can check us out@kit.com. And it’s just the place where all the top newsletter [00:33:00] creators, podcasters, authors, grow their email newsletters, connect with each other to grow faster and so much more.

[00:33:06] Nathan: So if you’re looking to increase revenue, automate more in your business and just generally make this year even more successful, go check out Kit. You can sign up@kit.com. We have a full migration service. We’ll, we’ll bring you over to Kit, totally for free. It’s been a labor of love to build this business over the last 13 years.

[00:33:22] Nathan: We’ve got a dream list of clients on there. Everyone from James Clear and Tim Ferriss to Dua Lipa and Matthew McConaughey. So it’s a pretty special group of customers and a really great team just who’s really here to help you be successful in your business. So then is the. The Doac team is translating or uh, dubbing offsite off platform and then uploading these files.

[00:33:45] Grace: Yeah, so it started as an experiment.

[00:33:46] Nathan: Okay.

[00:33:47] Grace: So there’s no, we don’t even have a production team doing it yet. Our production team is still doing English, even though, um, Berta, who’s one of the amazing producers, um, she is actually Spanish, so it could be perfect. [00:34:00] Yeah, because, because she’d be able to fully translate and, um, quality check the episode.

[00:34:04] Grace: But the translation started as an experiment. We were the best way possible having conversations with people and heard localization translations coming up more. And I just said to Steve, I was like, we really need to do this. We’ve been testing it for a few years, but this truly is the year and the growth has just been insane in 2025.

[00:34:23] Grace: And then now obviously seeing it grow in 2026, we’ve got some big goals. Um, but we just started Spanish Spotify channel as well. We, the 1st of January it launched. So. Very new things to come. Spotify doesn’t have the feature of adding the audio yet. Um, but we will see what happens in localization.

[00:34:44] Nathan: Does YouTube split out the views based on like, do you get analytics of how many are, are viewing in each language?

[00:34:51] Grace: Yeah, you get everything from views, retention, um, well, a VD, um, being able to see like even the countries based on them. So [00:35:00] if it was Spanish, are they Spain or latam? Um, and really understanding, but it’s just the whole world out there of how do you dub. I know some people have, um, created or like some creators have built their own dubbing tools because they didn’t find any on the market that were good enough.

[00:35:16] Grace: Um, so I think. I think there’s lots of tools out there that are good enough though, and it’s about like what level you’re at, but I actually don’t think any are a hundred percent perfect yet. Yeah. Because the AI has still got a long way to go. Yeah. But I think the best part is trying it and starting to get the views and experimenting with it.

[00:35:32] Grace: And then when the AI is a hundred percent ready, you’re already so far down the line, you’re not starting from zero.

[00:35:38] Nathan: Yeah. Okay. So I wanna know, going back to experimentation as a whole, how you think about designing an experiment.

[00:35:45] Grace: Yes.

[00:35:45] Nathan: Like, do you have a specific criteria that you’re going through, a process, and then how you measure it?

[00:35:49] Nathan: The, it’s the time that you’re gonna run the experiment with the original hypothesis, all of that.

[00:35:53] Grace: Yeah. We, so we look at the company overall goals and KPIs first. So whether it’s yearly, [00:36:00] five yearly, whatever, um, your team sets as maybe even monthly. Um, and we’ll look at overall company or podcast goals, then the team goals and say, what do we wanna work on?

[00:36:10] Grace: And um, there’s a really interesting photo our manager showed us of arrows pointing in all different directions and then arrows all pointing in one direction.

[00:36:18] Nathan: The same direction. Yeah, the same number of arrows and all of that. But like, yes. Are you making a tiny bit of progress in many areas or you Yeah,

[00:36:25] Grace: and I think that’s the key to experimentation is people can be, oh, I’m gonna, or people, I think people will say, I’m gonna try something new and experiment.

[00:36:33] Grace: But it might be so off piece towards what your goal is that actually what is the point in doing it. So say your goal is to hit 10,000 subscribers on YouTube, what do you need to get there? Every single experiment should be aligning to either learn new knowledge of how you can get there or gain more subscribers.

[00:36:53] Grace: And if you’re doing something that’s like, um, so far removed from that experiment, I think [00:37:00] it’s about refocusing. And sometimes we’ve run really random experiments that actually be like, I’m so far down the rabbit hole that we’re like, bring it back. What do we need to learn from this? And going back and saying, okay, how do we get to that answer?

[00:37:15] Grace: And that’s what helps the most. I think the ones, they don’t have to be, as I said before, they can be really simple experiments and don’t have to be massive life changing things. But the little ones for 1%, as lots of people say, can add up to those goals that you really wanna achieve.

[00:37:33] Nathan: If you’re growing a YouTube channel, what do you set as your core metrics?

[00:37:36] Nathan: Like maybe what are the things that people get caught up in that you’re like, that doesn’t actually matter. Yeah. Versus what you know on a day-to-day basis, or you know, monthly, you’re like, no, this is what I’m actually measuring and judging success based on.

[00:37:49] Grace: I definitely would say, well, it really depends on what the goal is.

[00:37:52] Grace: If it’s having a small community of really engaged people, then you’d look at subscribers in [00:38:00] retention. If you are wanting more. Mass, it could still be subscribers, but maybe it’s views and you’re willing to sacrifice retention. Mm-hmm. I think you can do all three though, I think, but it takes a bit longer.

[00:38:10] Nathan: Okay.

[00:38:11] Grace: And what I think the other people, the other people I think people forget is, um, it is a long game.

[00:38:18] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:38:18] Grace: Lots of YouTubers and creators I’ve met, I been doing it for 10 plus years.

[00:38:23] Nathan: Right.

[00:38:24] Grace: And obviously they’ve got lots of subscribers now, but at the start, like, um, Sean does magic, who did the talk yesterday, he had 800 subscribers for two or three years until he started getting subscribers.

[00:38:37] Grace: And I think a lot of people would quit and go, oh, but I’m just gonna stop now. I’m not even getting views. Mm-hmm. And so it’s the mentality to keep going. Um, but in terms of what you’d actually look for, I think for the long game, if it was a podcast or a creator that wants to do similar content, building up your subscribers, but also keeping views and retention high.

[00:38:57] Grace: So how do you keep it engaging through. [00:39:00] How do you, whether that’s chapters so people know where to go and can continue to be engaged, whether it’s engaging with comments so people feel like they actually know you and they keep coming back, whether it’s the post and asking what people want so you can make actual content around what people are looking for.

[00:39:16] Grace: And then the other side of it is being so interested and actually caring about the analytics to find out what is valuable to you and what’s not. So one of my favorite, um, analytics that YouTube added recently is like new versus returning versus casual viewers. Okay. Seeing how many people are new to your channel, you obviously always want a specific percentage of new people returning good casual.

[00:39:42] Grace: How many casual viewers do you want? You want a lot more returning. That means they’re coming back for more. They liked your videos,

[00:39:48] Nathan: they’re hooked.

[00:39:48] Grace: Yeah. And I think casual fine. It’s good that they’re come back. You’re never gonna say no to a view, but I think you really wanna try and build out that returning or more engaged area and say like, [00:40:00] Hey, keep coming back.

[00:40:01] Grace: How can we keep you obviously then move to a different section later on. Um, but how do we keep you returning in interested in our content?

[00:40:08] Nathan: Is there anything that you’ve done across either Doac or the other shows Yeah. That has made the biggest difference to getting those returning viewers?

[00:40:16] Grace: We’ve actually, it’s one of our experiment focuses right now.

[00:40:19] Nathan: Okay.

[00:40:20] Grace: So, um, on begin again, you’ll see, um, we’ve done almost like a themed month around health. So all the guests around health. Surround wellness, obviously start of the year. Perfect timing. So, um, for January, they all have a similar topic, so I was thinking if someone’s interested in one health guest, they’ll probably be interested in multiple.

[00:40:42] Grace: So being able to hopefully bring them back. Um, so that experiment is still running. Other ones are things like a, um, playlist.

[00:40:51] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:40:52] Grace: I should have said this before when you’re like, what YouTube features, but obviously we can talk about it now. Um, playlists are maybe a [00:41:00] slept on area as well.

[00:41:01] Nathan: Okay.

[00:41:02] Grace: If someone likes your content and they’re in that playlist, they can be recommended more of the same videos.

[00:41:07] Grace: So whether it’s finance, whether it’s content creators and learning how to develop their, um, platforms, the more you can almost tailor that content to them. So they’re finding it better. And also then the algorithm realizes and they’re like, oh, they’ve maybe watched four videos out of this playlist. Even if they haven’t clicked in the playlist, I’m gonna serve them more in the recommended.

[00:41:29] Grace: Right. So we’ve seen that and also playing around with the names of the playlist as well.

[00:41:35] Nathan: What’s an example of that?

[00:41:36] Grace: Instead of just finance, it’s like, um, the best ways to make money, or the best ways to save money.

[00:41:42] Nathan: How to build wealth.

[00:41:43] Grace: Yeah.

[00:41:43] Nathan: Something along those lines rather

[00:41:45] Grace: than searchable or engaging rather than just finance

[00:41:49] Nathan: must be a little bit

[00:41:50] Grace: more

[00:41:51] Nathan: interesting.

[00:41:51] Grace: The dynamic. Yeah. And, and we’ve seen that. Mm-hmm. Like if you even played around with testing different names, say you chose one playlist and [00:42:00] over the space of three months, I know that sounds long, but because you wanna give the algorithm enough time to find it, um, changed it every few weeks you’d see how the Yeah.

[00:42:10] Grace: Different views change.

[00:42:11] Nathan: I mean, it’s fascinating the amount of information that YouTube gives you.

[00:42:14] Grace: Yeah.

[00:42:14] Nathan: Like both YouTube and Instagram are amazing as platforms of like, look, we’ll tell you exactly what works and why and all of that. And a lot of creators are not actually using that. And I always think back to the.

[00:42:26] Nathan: The product manager

[00:42:27] Grace: Yes.

[00:42:27] Nathan: Who has their own KPIs and they’re running their own experiments of like, how do I get, how do I drive user creator behavior on the platform?

[00:42:35] Grace: Yeah.

[00:42:36] Nathan: And so it’s like they’re giving you the tools

[00:42:38] Grace: mm-hmm.

[00:42:38] Nathan: So that you can do the thing that they want you to do. And so like work with them,

[00:42:42] Grace: it’s spot on and they wanna know as well, right.

[00:42:44] Grace: We get so many of the specific product managers. There’s been some like Spotify ones for example, that come and say, can we get your thoughts on that tool?

[00:42:52] Nathan: Right.

[00:42:53] Grace: Because they really wanna know, did it work? What could have been better? Um, so there’s so many that we’ve been asked about and I’m [00:43:00] sure other creators or even could share feedback as well to then build that relationship, um, of.

[00:43:06] Grace: Providing what does and doesn’t work because that’s the only way they’re gonna be able to develop better tools as well is by getting real feedback.

[00:43:13] Nathan: The other thing that I would say is you can find out who all these indivi individual product managers are, because they’re all on LinkedIn. Yeah. They’re all, they’re all out there.

[00:43:21] Nathan: And you might say like, okay, of course Spotify is reaching out to Dyer of the CEO EO because you know, it’s one of the biggest podcasts. But you know me, I have this little show. But you know, knowing from behind the scenes in software, like the product managers want to hear from the whole range.

[00:43:36] Grace: Yeah.

[00:43:36] Nathan: Because they know, oh this works for big shows, but we actually have to get the long tail going.

[00:43:39] Grace: Yeah. And it, that’s how they found me for that. One of the meetings, it was on LinkedIn, I posted about a feature and said, this is a really cool feature. Spotify has launched. And the product manager literally messaged me and said, can we go on a call so I can learn about what you think of it?

[00:43:55] Grace: And I was like, it’s so, so valuable. ‘

[00:43:57] Nathan: cause they all have goals around user research and [00:44:00] understanding this. And so you can talk to them and then you can just ask, Hey. Yeah. Would you mind giving me feedback on this? And they’re like, oh, we’re actually behind the scenes. We’re trying to push this metric.

[00:44:08] Nathan: Yeah. And so this is how it works.

[00:44:09] Grace: Yeah. It’s I think the connection side as well of learning from other creators or the platforms and understanding actually, it’s not so much a competition.

[00:44:18] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:44:19] Grace: Like I listen to podcasts. I’m not only gonna listen to one podcast.

[00:44:22] Nathan: Right.

[00:44:22] Grace: I can listen to other podcasts or YouTubers.

[00:44:25] Grace: Like there’s no, there doesn’t have to be the secrecy. I think the sharing of knowledge can be super valuable to help everyone get better as well. Because everyone’s trying to learn how does the algorithm work?

[00:44:36] Nathan: Right?

[00:44:36] Grace: What works, what doesn’t. Um,

[00:44:39] Nathan: so I wanna go to, even on a show the size of DI of a CEO, you know, you 14 million subscribers, there are episodes that get millions and millions of views and there are episodes that get thousands of views.

[00:44:51] Grace: Mm-hmm.

[00:44:51] Nathan: And you know, you all put out a lot of episodes. What do you notice in those trends where. You know, you might expect this one. Okay, this [00:45:00] one’s gonna do really well. And it actually doesn’t come anywhere near to reaching.

[00:45:04] Grace: Yeah.

[00:45:04] Nathan: The same number of people versus the ones that, that do quite well.

[00:45:07] Grace: Yeah. I think sometimes we’re surprised.

[00:45:10] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:45:10] Grace: For example, Dr. Tara Swart

[00:45:12] Nathan: mm-hmm.

[00:45:12] Grace: Who’s a neuroscientist. She is one of our best performing episodes, and I don’t think anyone would’ve ever guessed it, expected it, it No. Which is amazing. I love that when it is an out outline and you’re like, wow, what can we learn from that?

[00:45:24] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:45:24] Grace: Um, I think the other way around is when something doesn’t go as well, and I think there’s a few reasons it could be that the topic and the guests just aren’t right.

[00:45:32] Grace: And also to preface, there’s a lot that don’t go out as well. Oh. So that don’t even make it to

[00:45:38] Nathan: Right.

[00:45:38] Grace: Going out.

[00:45:38] Nathan: What percentage of recorded episodes do you think actually get published are, is it 90% or,

[00:45:43] Grace: uh, yeah, I, I’d say 90% or maybe higher. Okay. So it’s only a small percentage, but it’s, if. This, the quality is not good enough.

[00:45:51] Grace: It just didn’t work. It needs to be really valuable. Mm-hmm. Like there has to be so much value in that podcast. And especially Steve is amazing. He has the highest standards I’ve [00:46:00] ever met in the best way possible. Yeah. And he cares so much about the quality of the podcast. And I think that’s why it has been such a success is making sure that everything that goes out is somewhat valuable in whatever topic it is to people.

[00:46:14] Grace: Mm-hmm. Um, instead of putting something out because, oh no, it is a Wednesday. We don’t release on a Wednesday, but Yeah. But it’s a Wednesday and you have to out, we have something out. Something out something. Yeah. Which I, I know is what a lot of people do because you’re like, oh God, I promised to do this and I have to put something out.

[00:46:28] Grace: Whereas actually having quality episodes is what is gonna keep people coming back. Yeah. And I, the more I think about it, the more I think, gosh, if you have one chance, maybe one chance to get someone to listen to an episode and they happen to click on the episode, that’s subpar. Then they never come back forever.

[00:46:47] Nathan: They think of a show as like

[00:46:48] Grace: exactly all episode. I ask

[00:46:49] Nathan: them to check how Grace’s content, but I actually wasn’t that great, you know? And, and you’re like, that was one.

[00:46:53] Grace: Yeah. And it’s, that’s scary. So it’s like, why would you put out something subpar? Because that could be the one piece of content that people [00:47:00] see and go, and that’s when they make their judgment.

[00:47:02] Grace: Mm-hmm. And even though that sounds crazy, it is probably true. Like people do judge so fast on whether they like or dislike something. And I listened to one podcast and it was a man, which I thought was kind of motivating, but he was shouting down the podcast microphone. And I was like, okay, it could be motivating.

[00:47:18] Grace: But I thought, I wonder if he does this every episode. Um, that’s, he did

[00:47:21] Nathan: okay.

[00:47:22] Grace: But, um, but I thought it’s interesting the dynamic of, for example, the one you did with the whiteboard, I was like, I love that. I wanna go back and watch more. And the consistency, I think, and quality is super important.

[00:47:34] Nathan: I would see it as a red flag on a podcast if you release a hundred percent of your episodes.

[00:47:39] Nathan: Yeah. And I think that might be controversial because you have to, in order to not release a hundred percent of your episodes, you have to offend people.

[00:47:46] Grace: Mm-hmm.

[00:47:47] Nathan: And because it means like, we recorded an episode and it was not good enough to release. So I Are you

[00:47:52] Grace: gonna tell me the after?

[00:47:54] Nathan: Yeah. This is my nice way of saying that

[00:47:56] Grace: You like, hint, hint,

[00:47:58] Nathan: delete the files.

[00:47:59] Nathan: [00:48:00] No. So there was an episode. Yeah, I, I guess that I’ve, I’ve done a few over a hundred episodes on the show.

[00:48:05] Grace: Mm.

[00:48:06] Nathan: And, uh, there’s two episodes that I haven’t released. Yeah. I’ll use one as an example. I won’t like throw out the guest in particular. But, um, we we’re recording in a hotel room, which is always hard to do.

[00:48:17] Nathan: Yeah. Like, got the hotel suite set up all this gear, hired a, um, a videographer to do it and everything, and it just wasn’t. There was a bunch of things working against us.

[00:48:25] Grace: Yeah.

[00:48:26] Nathan: Like the fire alarm had gone off at 4:00 AM that morning in the hotel, and so that was a little rough, you know?

Yeah.

[00:48:31] Nathan: And then I, I had made the decision, I was recording four podcasts that day.

[00:48:34] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:48:35] Grace: That’s caused,

[00:48:35] Nathan: that was really pushing it, you know, we had all day for it dedication, but like, that was before the, the fire alarm at 4:00 AM Um, we had some AV issues, all of that, and I didn’t bring the energy. I like

[00:48:47] Grace: Yeah.

[00:48:48] Nathan: Could not get, you know, the guest didn’t wanna share specific numbers and that was hard.

[00:48:52] Nathan: Like, because it’s something we do on the show. Yeah. We talk very specific things. They didn’t want to. I was like, I think that’d be fine. I couldn’t draw it, you know? Yeah. All of that didn’t [00:49:00] work. And so going back to the guest later and saying like, Hey, we, you know, we owned it. Like this was our mistake.

[00:49:06] Nathan: Yeah. You know, and we said, we, we will fly you out to our studio. Like, we’re not gonna release the episode.

[00:49:10] Grace: Yeah.

[00:49:11] Nathan: We would love to rerecord it. If you’re up to, we will fly you out. We’ll pay all the expenses. We’ll, you know all this, but. If we’re gonna do it, it needs to be at this bar for quality. And I’m, I’m so sorry.

[00:49:21] Nathan: Like it’s on us

[00:49:22] Grace: Yeah.

[00:49:23] Nathan: And all that. And they, and they took it well. Yeah. You know, I don’t think they were too terribly offended. Totally.

[00:49:27] Grace: I think it’s good if they take it well though, because it’s also the self-awareness of them realizing maybe they didn’t perform as well.

[00:49:34] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:49:35] Grace: And how can they, we’ve had some that have said like, how can they improve?

[00:49:39] Grace: Right. Which is actually really nice. Like, that’s so self-aware to be like, what can I improve on that didn’t go right. But you better have the high standards. ’cause that’s how people keep coming back.

[00:49:48] Nathan: Yeah. And so I guess for, for anyone listening, I, I would ask that as a flag of like, if you’ve done hundreds of episodes Yeah.

[00:49:53] Nathan: Is there at least one that you haven’t released? And if the answer is no, then I would argue Yeah. That you’re not holding the right [00:50:00] bar for quality.

[00:50:00] Grace: Yeah. Yeah. It’s true. It’s so true.

[00:50:03] Nathan: Another thing that I’ve heard mm-hmm. Is, uh, well actually I can say specifically who it was. Yeah. So I was talking to Ramit sat Yes.

[00:50:09] Nathan: He recently hit a million subscribers on his YouTube channel for his podcast and all of that. And he told me that, um, maybe a year or two earlier, as he was maybe a hundred thousand subscribers, something like that, he was like, okay, I want to grow.

[00:50:21] Grace: Mm-hmm.

[00:50:22] Nathan: My YouTube channel specifically, and he has this amazing podcast about money for couples.

[00:50:26] Grace: Yes.

[00:50:26] Nathan: And so it’s like psychology and money and relationships and all this stuff together. And he doesn’t care about personal finance tips. He cares about like why as a couple, the husband has the weird spending habits and how they’re, you know, like any of these things. He’s getting into it All. Right. His whole thing is he loves a, a Reddit post.

[00:50:42] Grace: Yeah.

[00:50:43] Nathan: About like, my wife or my husband is doing this, and he’s like, please come on my podcast. You know, he’s, that’s when he posts all the time.

[00:50:51] Grace: I need to listen. Yeah. I’ve listened to his doc episodes that I need to listen

[00:50:54] Nathan: to. It’s, it’s so good. But he, um, he was asking all these YouTube experts,

[00:50:58] Grace: mm,

[00:50:58] Nathan: okay.

[00:50:59] Nathan: How do I grow my [00:51:00] podcast on YouTube? Mm-hmm. Because all of his videos they were putting on, and they were like, make YouTube videos, not podcasts. Go make YouTube videos. And so what he did is he started interspersing. He still has the podcast is the main thing. Yeah. But he started going and making, you know, 15 to 25 minute YouTube videos around a specific topic.

[00:51:21] Nathan: It might cut in clips from the podcast. Yeah. But, but it was cut for retention and all, and it was like a classic YouTube video. Oh. And that is what made the difference in growing the show. I was worried as you were saying that. Yeah. You know, I was like, wait, isn’t this gonna like fragment our audience on the channel and people are coming for different things.

[00:51:38] Nathan: He said it worked really well.

[00:51:39] Grace: Mm.

[00:51:40] Nathan: But I’m curious about that of podcasts for retention and average view. Duration is a very hard thing to do.

[00:51:46] Grace: Mm.

[00:51:46] Nathan: So one, how do you think about that? And two, is it something you’ve considered of like going and making much more YouTube specific content rather than pure podcast?

[00:51:54] Grace: Yeah. I, that’s really interesting. I wonder if it’s also because it’s a specific genre. [00:52:00]

[00:52:00] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:52:00] Grace: Like finance and maybe people are happier with shorter clips to quickly learn. Um, whereas podcasts, or some podcasts maybe are more. Educational or storytelling. Right. You’re willing to sit there for the length of a movie.

[00:52:14] Nathan: So that, I mean, that’s a good point of being really cautious. Not, or not, not even cautious, being really aware of who you’re taking advice from.

[00:52:22] Grace: Mm.

[00:52:23] Nathan: And if they’re in the same genre or these other things where you’re like, oh, what This gaming channel, I’m gonna implement that. And you’re like, Nathan, you don’t have a gaming YouTube show.

[00:52:31] Nathan: Like, you’re as far away from that as possible. Like you should probably,

[00:52:36] Grace: yeah.

[00:52:36] Nathan: You know, you could be curious about it. Yeah. But like, please don’t copy and paste it.

[00:52:40] Grace: I, I usually have a slide in my presentations. Well, one says, are you curious?

[00:52:44] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:52:44] Grace: Um, but one slide says, don’t trust what others say. And I say that.

[00:52:52] Grace: I do trust. Grace says, don’t trust people. Yeah. I don’t trust anyone. Um, I do trust what others say, but I, I think the whole point of that is take what they say and [00:53:00] go and test it for yourself.

[00:53:01] Nathan: Right.

[00:53:01] Grace: So obviously he did, he went and tested it on his channel, saw if it worked. I’m sure if he tested five and went, oh my God, this has way worse performance,

[00:53:08] Nathan: then he’d be like, great,

[00:53:09] Grace: yeah, let’s pivot and stop and go back to the long form podcast.

[00:53:13] Grace: But I think you can take it learn and then take like put your own spin on it to see how could it work for your channel rather than just taking something going, I have to do this.

[00:53:23] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:53:24] Grace: There’s some things that could work across everything, whether it’s something analytical or a specific feature, like a post.

[00:53:31] Grace: But I think for retention base and specifically content, um, that is a style, whether it’s podcast or YouTube, traditional or vlogs, I think they all have different styles of retention. Like vlogs, people might play in the background mm-hmm. Most of the time and. Like, I’m happy to listen to it from far away.

[00:53:53] Grace: I’m not really gonna skip. Usually. Whereas Mr. Beast, you might watch and really intentionally watch.

[00:53:59] Nathan: Yep. [00:54:00]

[00:54:00] Grace: And then for a podcast you might put it on your tv. And so, and TV is massive on YouTube now. Mm-hmm. And so we are seeing, I would actually say there’s really different behaviors and retention across all the different genres on YouTube.

[00:54:14] Grace: Um, so taking knowledge from one into the other can be valuable, but making sure it actually applies and testing it on your own one is worthwhile first

[00:54:23] Nathan: in your title, I’d expect it to be the head of experimentation, but you have this word in here of failure, a word that people are like, well, I don’t like that.

[00:54:30] Nathan: I don’t want to fail in my relationship. I don’t want to, I especially don’t wanna fail at work.

[00:54:34] Grace: Mm-hmm.

[00:54:34] Nathan: Where, you know, my job might be on the line or any of those things. How do you go about. First building your own relationship to failure.

[00:54:42] Grace: Mm-hmm.

[00:54:43] Nathan: Where you’re fully embracing it. You know, you and I are on stage yesterday, um, talking about failure and, and showcasing all of that because that’s what the, um, you know, the team here at the, the Billion Follower Summit, they’re like, do talks around failure.

[00:54:56] Nathan: And so yeah. Okay, we can do that. Um, but how do you shape your own [00:55:00] relationship to failure?

[00:55:00] Grace: Mm-hmm. Well, my microphone was actually failing yesterday on stage, which was hilarious. And I was gonna call out and say, this is a failure. Um,

[00:55:08] Nathan: I was very glad that they sorted out the microphones before I came on.

[00:55:11] Nathan: Right after you. I know. So thank you for being the Guinea pig. That’s

[00:55:14] Grace: alright. Um, but no, I think, yeah, when we are younger, we are taught to avoid failure,

[00:55:21] Nathan: right?

[00:55:21] Grace: So I, as when you get into adulthood, it’s really hard to be like, oh, now I just wanna fail. Because you don’t have the experience. Mm-hmm. It’s like, why do we study for a job?

[00:55:31] Grace: Like why do doctors study? It’s because they need to learn. It’s like if we’re not taught that failure is okay throughout school, throughout university, or in life, how do you then get comfortable with it? You don’t. And so the whole mindset of, and when I’m trying to share more about failure to the world is it’s the biggest brands, celebrities of, like even entrepreneurs, they have all failed.

[00:55:55] Grace: And I know you talked about that yesterday as well. But without those things and [00:56:00] without them being comfortable with failure, they wouldn’t have got there or they wouldn’t have tried to get there. And my favorite one is obviously, um, JK Rowling and was turned out by 12 book publishers right before they published Harry Potter, which is the bestselling book series in history.

[00:56:13] Grace: And I just think, God, how do you have the motivation to go to 12 publishers and still think this is something? And it’s really the self-belief mm-hmm. Of to continue going. But in work it can be really hard because you’re working for someone else. You’re like, oh, I have KPIs to hit. I have to impress my manager if I want a promotion or a pay rise.

[00:56:34] Grace: And so how do I actually make sure I’m doing my best? Um, but for failure, it really has to be a company wide thing. Mm-hmm. To encourage it. So whether it’s a culture change, whether it’s management saying, we want to start doing this, but it is really a mindset of saying failure is going to help us grow because the more things we can learn from what didn’t work, the faster we can grow.

[00:56:58] Nathan: Right.

[00:56:59] Grace: Because if we’re [00:57:00] not trying anything, we’re not gonna learn at all. We’re just gonna keep doing our regular day job. If we’re trying things, some things will work, some things won’t. And whether that’s a subject line on an email, you might test two, one might flop, one might do amazing. Or maybe both will flop, who knows?

[00:57:16] Grace: But we’re actually testing it to see what works, what doesn’t. You’re just doing one, you’re never gonna know. You’re gonna put that one subject line out and going Cool. Could it have done better maybe. Mm-hmm. Or maybe it would’ve done worse, but we would’ve learned from that. And so the whole mindset that we’ve or Steve has created, which has been amazing, is making sure that no matter what, when someone fails, it’s, as long as they share a learning from it, it is congratulated.

[00:57:42] Grace: It is like, thank you for sharing that because you have helped to do something new in the company. Or try something that’s different to help us grow. Like you are helping the company grow by failing.

[00:57:53] Nathan: Oh, that’s so interesting. So the learning is the key thing.

[00:57:57] Grace: Yeah.

[00:57:57] Nathan: Like failure is not celebrated. [00:58:00] Failure and learning from it is

[00:58:01] Grace: celebrated.

[00:58:01] Grace: Yeah. You can’t celebrate failure alone. Right. You have to, you have to actually add a learning to it. Mm-hmm. Because failing. Cool. Like if I smash this glass in the water, fine. What? Uh, on the floor. Sorry. Um. Yeah, I could smash the glass. Yeah, I’ve smashed it. What do I do next time? Don’t touch the table. Um, but I think what’s the learning side is super important to then say, okay, how do we do this better next time?

[00:58:24] Grace: Do we continue down that experiment and try and find the way that does work? Or is that so far, remove that. It’s just gonna keep failing. And we know, don’t do that again, try this other way. Um, but it is, I think the best part that Steve says when someone shares a failure, he’s like, thank you for actually going and trying something, because that shows you care,

[00:58:43] Nathan: right?

[00:58:44] Grace: And like you are willing to go and try something. You need to help this company grow as fast as possible. And he doesn’t care that it’s a failure. He’s like, you just wanted to try. And that is what matters most. Rather than you just sitting there going, I’m not even gonna try.

[00:58:58] Nathan: There’s, I’ve heard someone [00:59:00] phrase that as, in life I want to commit, you know, sins or crimes of Yeah.

[00:59:04] Nathan: Commission, not o mission. Meaning like, I never want to get in trouble or, um, not succeed in my business or my goals or whatever else, because I omitted something because I didn’t take action.

[00:59:16] Grace: Yeah.

[00:59:16] Nathan: I wanna do it because I took action and it ended up being the wrong

[00:59:19] Grace: Yeah.

[00:59:19] Nathan: Action. And I learned from it.

[00:59:20] Grace: Yeah.

[00:59:20] Nathan: Right. And so, so many people, that’s me. So many people are paralyzed to try things because they’re like, what if it doesn’t work?

[00:59:26] Grace: Yeah.

[00:59:26] Nathan: And you know, it’s one of those, it’s, it’s a total cliche, but it, it’s so true of great if you don’t do it, it it didn’t work.

[00:59:35] Grace: Yeah.

[00:59:35] Nathan: You have a hundred percent chance of it not working if you don’t take action.

[00:59:39] Nathan: Mm-hmm. And then, so anything, any possible chance of succeeding requires taking that action.

[00:59:44] Grace: Yeah. And I think you always. Regret not trying, but I don’t think you’d ever regret failing and finding out the answer.

[00:59:51] Nathan: Right.

[00:59:52] Grace: So why would you not at least try and see what does and doesn’t work? But it’s also hard because you can be in the mindset of [01:00:00] the public embarrassment of failure.

[01:00:03] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[01:00:03] Grace: And I think that’s probably what stops people most. And even, I grew up in Australia and I think definitely there when you’re surrounded by all the people you went to school with or university or your first jobs, and you’re like, oh my God, all these people are gonna judge me. And then when I moved to London, I completely changed.

[01:00:22] Grace: Nothing cared. I didn’t care about public judgment. I, whether that’s because no one in England really knew who I was. Mm-hmm. Um, but I was just willing to try and fail. And even though they could maybe have seen what I post online and judge what am I gonna do, like they’re the ones judging. And I loved what.

[01:00:42] Grace: Um, VIN said yesterday in his talk, he said, when people say negative comments to him online, he said, I don’t want your negativity. You can keep it and you can go and have the negativity. Right. And I was like, that is such a great way, like a mindset to be in of if you failed or have a negative experience, you don’t have [01:01:00] to worry about public perception or take it with you.

[01:01:03] Grace: It’s like, move on, learn, and we can grow. Yeah.

[01:01:06] Nathan: Yeah. It’s so interesting of thinking about like, what’s the worst case thing that could happen, right? You put out content and it’s not good. And it’s like, well, you know what YouTube’s gonna do? They’re gonna see in the stats that it’s not good and they’re not gonna show it to anyone.

[01:01:17] Grace: Yeah. You

[01:01:17] Nathan: know, it’s so, you’re like, it’s barely going to be seen.

[01:01:20] Grace: Hey, but that’s true. It’s like, and it doesn’t matter. Like it’s, but also then you can learn from it and be like, why didn’t that work?

[01:01:25] Nathan: Right?

[01:01:26] Grace: Why did it not get the views? Was I boring? Did I have no inflection or tone or intonation? Mm-hmm. Was it a topic that wasn’t

[01:01:32] Nathan: Right.

[01:01:33] Grace: Popular online and like finding out why? And you know what’s interesting is I actually think we learned more from that. Than all of the viral ones. Mm-hmm. Because sometimes you have a viral video and you’ll go, what did I actually do in that that I can then replicate? You can do it most of the time. Yeah.

[01:01:47] Grace: And you’ll see YouTubers or content creators that will rip off a video 10 times, which is amazing because you get more views, go do that. Um, but I think you can learn a lot more from what didn’t work and be like, why did the retention only [01:02:00] last three seconds on a 32nd clip?

[01:02:02] Nathan: Right. Or

[01:02:02] Grace: finding out those answers.

[01:02:05] Nathan: I love vin’s example of like just rejecting someone’s negativity. Yeah. Because it’s like, okay, the thing I’m most afraid of is people commenting in a negative way or that sort of thing. My go-to response is when someone says something kind of nasty is I just go, you must be fun at parties. And that usually gets, that’s iconic.

[01:02:24] Nathan: Gets a bunch of, but you know his example of like, oh, I, I reject your negativity. Yeah. He is like, you can keep that.

[01:02:30] Grace: Yeah. I,

[01:02:30] Nathan: it’s

[01:02:30] Grace: like, so good.

[01:02:31] Nathan: Or the other one that I’ve seen people use is, um, uh. I think that would’ve been better as an inside thought and some people like where you just reflected back.

[01:02:41] Nathan: Yeah.

[01:02:41] Grace: I just have never, I can’t even fathom not to go down the topic of comments, but I have never commented anything negative, so I just don’t understand how people can comment something negative, especially because people are putting themselves out there online. Mm-hmm. And I’m like, that takes a lot of guts because they are willing to maybe fail.

[01:02:58] Grace: Yeah. So to then go [01:03:00] and comment something negative on someone’s post, like, how sad, um, that we should all be. Obviously everyone’s entitled to their opinion, but we should be celebrating people going and trying and doing something and trying new things. But I love that content creation in general is such a new industry in career, right?

[01:03:17] Grace: Like there’s so many people doing it as a career now, which is incredible.

[01:03:20] Nathan: Yeah. So I wanna go back to the culture inside of flight, story around failure because that. There’s, you know, these unspoken rules or you know, that shape a culture.

[01:03:31] Grace: Yeah.

[01:03:31] Nathan: And I wanna know how Steve and the rest of the leadership

[01:03:36] Grace: mm-hmm.

[01:03:36] Nathan: Like, really shape that and say, okay, not only do we celebrate failure Yeah. But, um, how we learn from it and, and like what are those, those rituals or those little things that Yeah. If you were implementing it in another company, you would do. Yeah,

[01:03:47] Grace: we, for the public recognition side, we have an experimenter of the week trophy.

[01:03:53] Grace: Oh. So it is this big trophy and a voucher that, um, someone gets for sharing an experiment. Doesn’t matter whether it [01:04:00] succeeded or failed, but it’s the awareness in the team that this is what we celebrate. We celebrate someone trying, and they have got this for this week because they did something. Um, so that is one of the like public recognition ways.

[01:04:14] Grace: The other side is Steve, is he just really cares about our team. And he’ll, if he sees someone. Experimenting, trying, even failing or drop a message and be like, thank you so much for doing that. Or I can see you’re working really hard. Thank you so much for putting in all that effort or the quality of what they’re doing.

[01:04:33] Grace: And it’s so nice that he cares. And I think when you, to create a culture where people are willing to fail, the people at the top. So all of our amazing C-Suite as well, our CEO, Georgie, they have to have relationships with the people on the team. So they feel comfortable enough to say, Hey, this didn’t work

[01:04:51] Nathan: right,

[01:04:51] Grace: and this is why.

[01:04:53] Grace: And then they go, okay, well what do we learn from it next time? It’s not always positive.

[01:04:57] Nathan: Yeah.

[01:04:57] Grace: Like, it’s not like we go, woo, we failed. [01:05:00] Yes. Like that was, we didn’t hit any of our goals. Oh yeah. Yeah. Like, it’s not always like that. Yeah. Um, obviously we wanna hit our goals. Mm-hmm. We wouldn’t want be the second biggest podcast in the world if we didn’t wanna hit goals.

[01:05:11] Grace: Um, and it’s what we’re striving towards. We’re not, we don’t go, oh, we are going to fail. We want to succeed, but we know there’s gonna be failures along the way. And that’s, it’s the accepting of that. And so, yeah. Uh, Steve, Georgie, our amazing C-Suite team, are always willing to go, okay, it didn’t work. What can we learn?

[01:05:29] Nathan: Right?

[01:05:29] Grace: And they even say Georgie’s um, famous line, which I love, and everyone on the team is encouraged to say is, I don’t know.

[01:05:35] Nathan: Yeah.

[01:05:36] Grace: I don’t know the answer to something and not to look stupid. It’s to be genuinely honest and say, I don’t know, instead of making up something.

[01:05:43] Nathan: Right.

[01:05:44] Grace: Um, and so it’s the whole psychological safety of the team feeling comfortable to say, I don’t know, or I failed and this is why.

[01:05:53] Grace: And being able to build on from that and you’re gonna learn. And the learning is so much more valuable. ’cause that is what. [01:06:00] We know what does and doesn’t work on YouTube or what does and doesn’t work in social media marketing.

[01:06:05] Nathan: Yeah. Especially when you’re taking it across not just one show, but a bunch of shows.

[01:06:09] Nathan: And you’re saying like, look, this is part of what we bring to the table if, if a creator wants to launch a show with flight story, right. Is that you’re getting all of these learnings.

[01:06:17] Grace: Yeah. And we do it with brand partners now as well. Mm-hmm. So like when we have ad reads in a podcast, we go and then test the ad read.

[01:06:24] Grace: How do you get the best retention in an ad read?

[01:06:26] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[01:06:27] Grace: Because most people skip an ad.

[01:06:28] Nathan: Right.

[01:06:29] Grace: So how do we make people wanna stay? And it’s not Yeah. It’s not just experimenting on the podcast, it’s experimenting in any area possible.

[01:06:35] Nathan: Yeah. And carrying that through.

[01:06:36] Grace: Yeah.

[01:06:37] Nathan: I’m thinking a lot about what gives status in an organization, because whether we like it or not, humans love to play status games.

[01:06:45] Grace: Yeah.

[01:06:45] Nathan: You know, usually subconsciously. And so if you think about like organization design and culture, it’s like, okay, well what gets status in the organization? Is it. Working super long hours, um, is it achieving, you know, key [01:07:00] results and like that being really visible. And so what I hear you saying is that experimentation gets status.

[01:07:07] Grace: Mm-hmm.

[01:07:07] Nathan: Because you know, you have a specific award around it. Yeah. Like it’s, it’s pretty overt. Um, and so thinking about that in each organization, like at Kit we, we do a lot of experimentation, but we have, we don’t have those rituals around really celebrating it.

[01:07:25] Grace: Mm.

[01:07:25] Nathan: Um, we more tend to celebrate the wins

[01:07:28] Grace: Yeah.

[01:07:28] Nathan: Than the, uh, than the experiment itself.

[01:07:31] Grace: Most companies do.

[01:07:32] Nathan: Yeah. Yeah. And so that’s something that I’m working on shifting because then it, you know, right now it’s, it’s around, um, how do I get a win? Which is great. We should be trying to do that. Yeah,

[01:07:43] Grace: yeah, yeah.

[01:07:44] Nathan: But you know, you’re saying, I actually, it’s, it’s.

[01:07:46] Nathan: The pure number of shots on goal or

[01:07:49] Grace: Yeah.

[01:07:49] Nathan: Or that sort of thing.

[01:07:50] Grace: It’s, it’s always the moral shots you take.

[01:07:52] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[01:07:52] Grace: So if you’re uploading content on socials, if you upload one video a week, you have one opportunity,

[01:07:57] Nathan: right?

[01:07:57] Grace: You upload 10 a week, you have 10 opportunities to go viral. [01:08:00] Mm-hmm. So what is the better option?

[01:08:02] Grace: The 10? Obviously. Yeah. Obviously it takes more work, but you have way more opportunities. Mm-hmm. And so in the 10 experiments I shared, seven are probably gonna come back. Average. You might get two failures. Maybe one success without success could be exponential.

[01:08:16] Nathan: Yeah.

[01:08:16] Grace: And the failure side of it, it’s interesting.

[01:08:19] Grace: Obviously it’s amazing to share successes or reward success, but I think what can be missed is actually what didn’t work. And we do that across all of our shows and bring it together and it’s like, is the same thing not working

[01:08:32] Nathan: right?

[01:08:32] Grace: But also if something didn’t work, could we then make sure that it doesn’t get tested everywhere else?

[01:08:38] Grace: If it doesn’t need to be like, if we know solely that that is not gonna work, don’t waste your time. Like everyone else, the 10 other, if you had 10 shows, 10 other shows, don’t need to go and waste their time testing it if we know it doesn’t work.

[01:08:50] Nathan: Right.

[01:08:51] Grace: So it’s valuable both ways of the successes of what does work, but also you don’t need to go on test things if it doesn’t work.

[01:08:57] Nathan: How do you log all of the, you know, the [01:09:00] shared knowledge from those experiments?

[01:09:01] Grace: Yeah.

[01:09:01] Nathan: Because you have a growing team.

[01:09:04] Grace: Yeah.

[01:09:04] Nathan: Uh, people get hired between other teams and companies. Yeah. You know, you’re not gonna retain everyone for all time. And, and as you’re like, okay, we, we went from 20 people to 40 to a hundred to, you know, you need to transfer that knowledge.

[01:09:16] Nathan: Yeah. Look, what systems do you have in place for that?

[01:09:18] Grace: Yeah. It’s currently a database of all the experiments. Okay. But the goal this year, which we’re currently building, is some, a platform where people can go and input their own experiments to, so previously it’s them sending them. Mm-hmm. But now they’ll be able to almost like own it.

[01:09:32] Grace: And you can go in, see your experiments, see other people’s, their face will be on it. So you can see, hey, Nathan’s always running heaps of the experiments. Mm-hmm. What’s going on here? I see. The only one experimenting in the company. Um, whereas then we’ll be able to see like what teams are experimenting the most.

[01:09:48] Grace: Okay. Are there lots of social learnings we can then take onto another area? And also I think what can be maybe siloed in companies is different areas of social or marketing [01:10:00] or production, whereas there’s actually learnings we can take across multiple of them.

[01:10:04] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[01:10:04] Grace: And so, for example, if a specific type of content worked really well on YouTube, we could cut it down short form, then put it in email, then maybe we go and put it in our, um, do a spinoff or a special segment of it for our paid community.

[01:10:20] Grace: Then maybe we could take it to a live show if it’s something that could be created into a live show. So the experiments can apply to so many areas that it’s not just one team.

[01:10:30] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[01:10:30] Grace: Um, which is, yeah, I find quite interesting of. It shouldn’t be ever siloed. It should be the knowledge sharing.

[01:10:36] Nathan: Yeah. So I mean, the, the key takeaway there is you have to have a database where you are logging your experiments.

[01:10:42] Nathan: Yeah. And that could be as simple as a notion table.

[01:10:44] Grace: Yeah.

[01:10:44] Nathan: Where each thing gets submitted there and it’s tagged by

[01:10:47] Grace: Yeah.

[01:10:47] Nathan: The team and the category. Like this was a copywriting experiment. This was a retention experiment.

[01:10:51] Grace: Yeah.

[01:10:52] Nathan: Um, and then what you can do is now you can have ai, you know, summarize learnings from that.

[01:10:59] Nathan: Or you can [01:11:00] say, Hey, I’m designing an experiment, uh, like this to solve that. Has, has anyone in the company done an experiment like that? And Claude would be, or Notion AI or whatever, would be very happy to say like, well, here’s the three most similar experiments that have been done in the company. Yeah.

[01:11:13] Nathan: Two of them were done before you joined the team, or, or whatever else. Um, but no, the exact thing you’re testing has not been documented in the

[01:11:20] Grace: case. Yeah. And I, and also retesting things. Mm-hmm. So if someone’s tested and it’s six months later, you, you might go, oh, actually we need to retest that. And see, especially on socials, things move so fast.

[01:11:30] Grace: Does it still hold, does it not hold? Um, and how long should we retest it within and keeping all the data in there? Like I know booking.com has an amazing one. Obviously it’s easier ’cause they own the platform,

[01:11:41] Nathan: right?

[01:11:41] Grace: So you can get proper statistical significance. Whereas some of ours, as I said, are more knowledge based experiments.

[01:11:48] Grace: Um, but we’re still able to put them in learn and then apply them to other places. But it’s the knowledge sharing a hundred percent that is so valuable.

[01:11:56] Nathan: Yeah, that makes sense. We, I touched on AI for a [01:12:00] second. How are you using AI across Flight story? Yeah. And especially in the podcast production process.

[01:12:05] Grace: Mm-hmm.

[01:12:05] Nathan: Um, but, but really across the company. ’cause I, I know that, uh, Steve and the whole flight story team are pretty obsessed with learning and implementing ai. Ai.

[01:12:13] Grace: Yeah. There’s, honestly it’s across every area. I don’t think. Anyone doesn’t use AI in flight story. Yeah. Um, and we had an AI agent competition last year, which was really fun because I’d never thought about building an AI agent.

[01:12:28] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[01:12:28] Grace: It’s not really my area, but stopping my work to then go and try and challenge myself to build it was super interesting. And the things you can build, if you take a little bit of time to learn it when I’m not a developer, I’m not a coder, was super valuable. So I built a tool that could translate our social media clips and then upload them themselves as well.

[01:12:49] Nathan: Okay.

[01:12:50] Grace: So not, I didn’t code anything, like I didn’t build an 11 labs, but it was able to use software like 11 Labs to then go and almost replace a social media [01:13:00] manager. And we are seeing a lot of different AI tools starting to replace certain areas of jobs, but also speed up the process.

[01:13:07] Nathan: Yeah.

[01:13:08] Grace: So being able to help speed up production, being able to help speed up even designing thumbnails.

[01:13:13] Grace: Especially if it’s something that’s the same thumbnail every time, but maybe swapping out a guest face or text makes it really easy for AI to do, uh, descriptions, titles, even inputting, say you were scripting for a social clip and inputting your voice into GPT or you have tone of voice, sorry.

[01:13:31] Nathan: Right.

[01:13:31] Grace: It’s GPT so understands you and then it’s coming out straight away.

[01:13:34] Grace: Perfect. In your tone of voice and the whole team use AI across the board to try and help speed up, but also improve the quality of what we’re doing.

[01:13:44] Nathan: Well, it’s a great example, you know, from, we’re talking earlier about dubbing. Mm-hmm. The, the clips or the episodes.

[01:13:50] Grace: Yeah.

[01:13:50] Nathan: And you’re saying, well, that would be nice to be able to do, but I don’t have a dedicated team member that I could put on that.

[01:13:55] Nathan: Yeah. You’re like, well, you can build an agent that will take the file that [01:14:00] was uploaded here and go and, you know, use the transcript, create this. You know, use the off the shelf tools and run that as an automation. So that

[01:14:07] Grace: definitely,

[01:14:08] Nathan: you know, now we’re just into quality control. Yeah. And, and you can reach this new audience without actually having to, you know, do two hours or four hours of work per episode on

[01:14:17] Grace: that.

[01:14:17] Grace: Yeah. And it can be basic things. It could be like, you wanna stay across all of the new features on social media channels and you set up a GPT or an agent to do that for you and keep you across where

[01:14:28] Nathan: that’s like giving you a digest of Yeah.

[01:14:29] Grace: This

[01:14:29] Nathan: is what’s changed in Instagram or

[01:14:31] Grace: Yeah. And it’s super basic, but it’s like, then you don’t have to have someone, ’cause previously for the last four years we’ve had channels called, um, industry News Staying Ahead.

[01:14:40] Grace: Yeah. Where we have those, where we share, where we go and share them. And I’m like, why am I still doing it? Personally, I do like it because it teaches you something of going to look for new knowledge and

[01:14:49] Nathan: you see what’s interesting, what other team members found interesting.

[01:14:52] Grace: But yes. Yeah. Yeah. So I, I see the value in the human side still, but I actually think to not miss something.

[01:14:58] Grace: It can be really valuable to make sure [01:15:00] that no one has missed a specific major update.

[01:15:02] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[01:15:03] Grace: Um, and so the, that’s a tiny, simple one of being sent news updates, but could speed up the process of needing to take 10 minutes outta your day to go and find those things.

[01:15:13] Nathan: Right. Were there any other agents from the Agent Challenge that stood out that you were like, Ooh, this was particularly

[01:15:19] Grace: excellent?

[01:15:19] Grace: Ooh, so many. There was, um, some production ones. One of them that wasn’t in the AI agent competition, but has been interesting to see progress is we’d be tested AI podcasts for a little while. So we tested a version with Steve’s voice. Um, and it, it’s still progressing the test, to be honest, ’cause it’s evolved into something else that’s launching soon.

[01:15:39] Grace: Um, but even testing like the design and getting imagery and things and it’s interesting how far it can be pushed. Okay. With ai, and I know there was a conduct creator, um, at the summit who has now got quite a few channels of AI avatars. That he’s got millions of subscribers on of these [01:16:00] avatars on YouTube.

[01:16:00] Grace: And I just thought it’s interesting that use of ai, obviously AI can also help us speed up our work or improve our work, but still the AI tech side of the production is Yeah. Interesting to see where that future will go. And will people still be interesting in adopting it and watching content like that?

[01:16:17] Grace: Or do they want the human people,

[01:16:19] Nathan: right. I mean, do you have a perspective on where the creator economy goes in

[01:16:24] Grace: this

[01:16:24] Nathan: world of ai?

[01:16:26] Grace: Yeah, I, I think it will go down the AI route definitely. Of translations. Yeah. I would be intrigued to see, I think there will definitely be AI avatars or AI podcasts. How quickly they get adopted.

[01:16:37] Grace: I’m not sure. Purely because I think people are still now converting to wanting humans.

[01:16:41] Nathan: Yeah.

[01:16:42] Grace: And human opinions. And even there’s the whole, um, debate online right now of. Is social media too? Perfect Now with ai and people are now putting in spelling errors on purpose to then make it seem more human. And I’m like, gosh, how sad that we are trying to put spelling errors to make it seem like [01:17:00] actually it’s me.

[01:17:01] Grace: Um, whereas like most of my content, I write myself, I don’t really even use chat GPT to come up with ideas and like, this is coming to my head, I’m just gonna write it and post it on LinkedIn. But I know obviously it’s a amazing

[01:17:11] Nathan: tool. You can because the, the people who use AI for their LinkedIn posts Yeah.

[01:17:15] Nathan: In the most basic way. You’re like, I, I can see through it a mile away and I’m just not, I’m gonna scroll right past it.

[01:17:21] Grace: Yeah. And it’s like that I do still like the human side and I think, and I think most people will be on that for a little longer. Yeah. What do you think though? Where do you think it’ll go?

[01:17:30] Nathan: I mean, it’s obviously going to augment every single workflow. Yeah. Allow people to build like substantial reach with small teams. Mm. Um, you know, I saw a creator, her name’s, uh, um, Allie, and she does a lot of painting and art.

[01:17:44] Grace: Mm.

[01:17:44] Nathan: And she ran a whole series of, um, of ads like so short form reels and all that run as, as ads on Instagram and, and Facebook.

[01:17:54] Nathan: And it’s like, Hey, this is Allie’s AI clone, and, you know, and she’s able to do these different [01:18:00] things. Mm-hmm. You know, now she’s on a boat painting, and then she’s over here and

[01:18:03] Grace: Wow.

[01:18:03] Nathan: You know, and it, it looks like her, but it’s clearly ai and she names that it’s,

[01:18:08] Grace: yeah.

[01:18:08] Nathan: You know, it’s her AI clone and she did it in an interesting way, and it was about retention and Wow.

[01:18:13] Nathan: And then I got one of her other ads, and it was definitely her.

[01:18:18] Grace: Mm-hmm.

[01:18:18] Nathan: You know, an actual video of her.

[01:18:20] Grace: Mm-hmm.

[01:18:20] Nathan: Um, and so the, the dynamic, like going back and forth, she stopped the scroll by saying,

[01:18:26] Grace: yeah.

[01:18:27] Nathan: You know, and she kept her tension up with, in these different, with her AI avatar. So that’s all really interesting.

[01:18:33] Nathan: I also see. Creators, especially on YouTube, there’s a, a wave of people who are, it’s kinda like putting the, the spelling errors in, but going to much more analog formats, um, like creators who are shooting on camcorders. Mm. Yeah. Where you’re like, wait, you’re going to 1997 technology. I

[01:18:54] Grace: know.

[01:18:54] Nathan: You know?

[01:18:55] Grace: Yeah.

[01:18:55] Nathan: Because, and you’re, you’re recording on actual, you know, the film cassettes or [01:19:00] whatever and, and ’cause they’re saying, oh, we’re going the opposite direction. Yeah. Um, and so it’s less about Polish and it’s back to storytelling and human connection.

[01:19:09] Grace: Yeah.

[01:19:10] Nathan: Um, so I’m obviously making, you know, similar to you making a huge investment in the creator economy and, and all of that.

[01:19:18] Nathan: I don’t think it’ll go anywhere.

[01:19:19] Grace: Mm.

[01:19:19] Nathan: Um, but I think that people will continue to crave human connection and human stories.

[01:19:26] Grace: Yeah.

[01:19:26] Nathan: Um, over the like. Polished. Perfect.

[01:19:30] Grace: Definitely. And I think as well, what will then happen with events like this,

[01:19:34] Nathan: right?

[01:19:35] Grace: Like where people who were so excited to see Mr. Beast or other creators is then, like if they’re an AI avatar, who are you excited to see?

[01:19:43] Grace: Like who do you run up to? Right? Where’s the human side of being excited to see your favorite creator in real life?

[01:19:50] Nathan: This event has been fascinating. Yeah. ’cause if you just, you know, you hang out in the hotel lobby Yeah. Where all the speakers are or whatever else, and you know, you just meet tons and tons of people

[01:19:59] Grace: Yeah.

[01:19:59] Nathan: And [01:20:00] right. And we’re, you know, flying and my flight was almost 15 hours. Right. To get here to Dubai and it’s so worth it.

[01:20:08] Grace: Mm.

[01:20:09] Nathan: And not just because you can see, you know, Mr. Beast walk by and go, oh, he is taller than I love that. He was, you know, um, or connect with all these people, but it’s about the, the human connection.

[01:20:19] Grace: Mm. Yeah.

[01:20:20] Nathan: And I, I think that’s gonna continue to ramp up.

[01:20:22] Grace: Yeah. It’s spot on. I agree.

[01:20:24] Nathan: One other question that I wanna ask, and this is entirely a selfish question, and so I typically save it towards the end.

[01:20:29] Grace: Love that.

[01:20:30] Nathan: This is the, um, a question about getting the right audience. So something that I do for my show Yeah.

[01:20:36] Nathan: Is I care not about views.

Mm-hmm.

[01:20:39] Nathan: I care about, uh, attention from the right people.

[01:20:43] Grace: Mm.

[01:20:44] Nathan: And so, uh, with our podcast team, they’ll often say, Hey, do an episode for beginners and title it like this, and all of that. And I’m like, I’m never gonna do an episode for beginners, because there’s tons and tons of content out there.

[01:20:56] Grace: Yeah.

[01:20:56] Nathan: And so on one hand we’re like, Hey, we wanna reach more people. We want more views. But [01:21:00] I’m saying I only want to reach the creators who have, you know, who are making hundreds of thousands of dollars.

[01:21:05] Grace: Mm-hmm.

[01:21:05] Nathan: I care about the right people, not the most people.

[01:21:08] Grace: Yeah.

[01:21:09] Nathan: And that goes against most advice on YouTube.

[01:21:13] Nathan: Or if someone’s like, okay, here’s how to get more views for your podcast.

[01:21:16] Grace: Yeah.

[01:21:16] Nathan: How do you think about these? These shows or channels that have a very targeted audience that they’re after. And like seeking out the right views versus as many as possible.

[01:21:29] Grace: I am actually in that camp. I am in the idea of creating a community Yeah.

[01:21:35] Grace: That are super highly engaged because that will grow. And there’s usually more people like that community. Right? So even if it was only a thousand people at the start, or even a hundred people that are really highly engaged and love your content and are subscribed and do everything you say, because they take it as biblical, they are going to know other people like them and they’re gonna say, Hey, you need to come watch this.

[01:21:59] Nathan: Right. [01:22:00]

[01:22:00] Grace: Or I really liked this. And share it to their community online or on their Instagram page, and people like them will see it. So I actually think even though people want a viral video, especially on short form, I think viral and short form can absolutely mean nothing in mm-hmm. Lot like the context of your career.

[01:22:18] Grace: Because you can go viral on a video every week and it might not actually help progress anything. Whereas when you look at long form, it’s actually where you’re building that community. People are willing to sit here and listen to you for an hour. Yeah. They actually are interested in you. Yeah. And like you provide really good information.

[01:22:33] Grace: I wanna keep coming back. And that I think is better quality than something like a challenge video where people might watch for 10 minutes, have an affiliation or know your face, but not actually be willing to say you did a course, come on your course, or buy your tech if you were selling or whatever.

[01:22:54] Grace: Like products. And that real community side, I think that is so much more valuable long [01:23:00] term than a view or a viral video could ever get. And having a niche.

[01:23:05] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[01:23:06] Grace: Specifically. Because I know what I’m coming to you for. Like what we said before, that podcast is known for X.

[01:23:12] Nathan: Right.

[01:23:12] Grace: Whereas you could be like, oh, the podcast where they talk about this, this, and this and this, and I don’t even remember what the name is.

[01:23:18] Grace: Whereas it’s like, I know I’m going to that creator for this. Yeah. Like Colin and Samir. You know what you go to that content

[01:23:25] Nathan: for? It’s very focused. Yeah.

[01:23:25] Grace: Yeah. Which is amazing. And I’m like, I actually thought it was cooler to see Samir than Mr. Beast. Yeah. I obviously love what Mr. Beast does, but I was like, Samir, I was like, that’s so cool.

[01:23:35] Grace: He’s, he’s so amazing. But it’s obviously mm-hmm. In the industry. But I think being in that industry like can be so much more valuable to the people there and it will grow. Um, and it’s a long game anyway, no matter what industry you’re in, whether it’s. Doing Mr. Beast s videos or Colin and Samir, um, it’s still gonna take a while to grow, no matter whether it’s growing to a hundred thousand or a hundred million.

[01:23:59] Nathan: [01:24:00] Yeah, that was, I had the same experience as you did. Um,

[01:24:03] Grace: yeah.

[01:24:03] Nathan: So at the speakers dinner last night, right? There was this, I mean, I say speakers dinner.

[01:24:07] Grace: Yeah.

[01:24:08] Nathan: There’s like, there’s hundreds of speakers at this event. Yeah. So it’s wild who they’ve flown in I know. And, and all of that. But there was this group and it was, uh, Mr.

[01:24:17] Nathan: Beast and the Yes Theory folks. And you know, I was looking at this like, uh, group of maybe 12 people or whatever, and you’re like, oh, there’s hundreds of millions of YouTube subscribers represented by this, this little circle. Yeah. And, but I had the, the exact same thought, but Right. Like Samir and Jimmy were sitting next to each other and I was like, Ooh, I really wanna say hi to Samir.

[01:24:35] Grace: Yeah.

[01:24:36] Nathan: You know, and I know like we’ve talked on the phone and, and we’ve met and met before and all that. But it was one of those things where I, he like waited until he got up. ’cause I was like, I’m, there’s no way I’m going to come and interrupt. Also, like Jimmy has this security standing around that was

[01:24:49] Grace: Exactly.

[01:24:50] Nathan: And all of that. But once Samir left that conversation, then I like made sure to seek him out and say, oh

[01:24:53] Grace: yeah. And I think it’s cool. Like, I just thought, well, and I think that’s nice is creators that [01:25:00] are, that have, but I think it’s dedication. Yeah. It’s like dedicated, really niche. Interesting. Topics to talk about rather than, I don’t even know if I met Mr.

[01:25:09] Grace: Beast. I don’t know what I talked to him about. Right. Maybe YouTube, but it’s not as specific as like the conversation you could have with Samir.

[01:25:16] Nathan: Yeah.

[01:25:17] Grace: It’d be so interesting. So, yeah, I, I agree. It’s so funny.

[01:25:21] Nathan: Okay, so the last category of experiments that I wanna know about is the experiments that you’re running personally.

[01:25:26] Nathan: Mm-hmm. I see you building your personal brand, posting a lot. Like what’s something that you’re experimenting with, either that you’ve recently learned or the experiments that you have out there that you’re still waiting to see the results from?

[01:25:36] Grace: Yeah. I had previously, for the last few years, only focused on LinkedIn.

[01:25:41] Grace: Okay.

And

[01:25:41] Grace: now I thought actually I need to diversify and, um, experimenting with Instagram now. So pushing out the boat a bit, doing more video content, but also there’s so much to experiment with on reels, even on carousels alone. So how do I make sure the retention stays up? What sort of hook do I add [01:26:00] is the font, ’cause there’s so many.

[01:26:02] Grace: Videos with fonts out there that you can’t even read. How do you make sure the font’s engaging? Well, it’s the ideal length, so this, honestly, it’s a challenge and especially while having a full-time job Yes. And trying to do content creation on the side, it’s, um, a challenge, but the best way possible because not only my learning from creating content, I’m then able to take those learnings and experiments and apply them back to my work mm-hmm.

[01:26:26] Grace: At flight story, which is really interesting to have kind of a whole full flywheel of testing, learning, and then applying it back to my full-time work.

[01:26:35] Nathan: I like that. What would you say is the, you know, the 80 20 or the 90 10

[01:26:41] Grace: Yeah.

[01:26:41] Nathan: Of the most effective things. For you as a creator, building your personal brand when you have like such a, a narrow window of time?

[01:26:48] Grace: Yeah,

[01:26:49] Nathan: because I, I don’t think that, uh, flight story is a, a four hour work week, you know, type. The, the fives I get is everyone is very committed, working very, very hard

[01:26:58] Grace: to grow. We have a call at 11:00 PM tonight on a [01:27:00] Saturday, so that’s not often, but yeah, it’s the times I being here. Um, but yeah, it’s, I, when I come up with ideas, I just write them in my notes and put them away for later.

[01:27:10] Grace: Okay. Because if I’m on the train or something, I’m obviously not filming it then and a lot of it is done on my weekend. Yeah. So a lot of it is trying to fit as much in, in the evenings or the weekends. I have a train journey to and from work, so I also try and do a bit of editing then, but also realizing when is the time to delegate and pass things off and say, actually I need someone else to edit this for me or do it.

[01:27:34] Grace: But I really wanna challenge myself right now to do it. To learn more.

[01:27:37] Nathan: Yeah.

[01:27:37] Grace: About what works, what doesn’t on socials, why. It’s a good challenge. Like I want to try and see how do you get a video that’s super engaging or how do I increase shares on a video, right. That people go, actually I wanna share that with a friend that was really good or that really resonated.

[01:27:53] Grace: Um, and learning and putting, I, it’s about putting the time into it though, because that’s when it really happens is it’s not gonna [01:28:00] happen if I post once a month. The growth will happen when it’s once a day.

[01:28:03] Nathan: Right.

[01:28:04] Grace: Yeah.

[01:28:04] Nathan: What’s a, a metric that you’re targeting in your personal brand right now?

[01:28:08] Grace: I, not really a specific number of followers or anything.

[01:28:11] Grace: It’s more how often can I post. Yeah. I would love to get to posting once a day, a specifically on Instagram. Um, I just need to get the time to feel more content and I have videos, edit, uh, recorded. I need to edit them. Right. So it’s that time and dedicating the time to put into it, but it’s, yeah, output right now rather than any specific number.

[01:28:31] Nathan: Well, I think it’s such an important thing of. And the takeaway that I want people to have from what you just said is focusing on lead indicators versus lagging indicators.

[01:28:40] Grace: Mm-hmm.

[01:28:41] Nathan: Right. And you said what I can control

[01:28:43] Grace: Yeah.

[01:28:43] Nathan: Is the effort that I put in.

[01:28:46] Grace: Yeah.

[01:28:46] Nathan: You know? Okay. We’re posting once a day. I can control that.

[01:28:49] Nathan: I can’t control how many views. Something gets

[01:28:52] Grace: nice.

[01:28:53] Nathan: I can have the inputs and the learnings. Yeah. And if I keep iterating, then presumably given enough time, [01:29:00] we’ll get to the, the output.

[01:29:01] Grace: And it’s the taking more shots. Like the more Yes. Even though I know there’s the whole debate of quality, best quantity.

[01:29:07] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[01:29:07] Grace: And I agree. I still think even if you’re going for quantity, you still need a high quality video. Right. If I’m choosing to post every day, but I still think the more shots I’m taking, maybe one in seven will do. Okay. Right. The other six might fail. And I’m sure you’ll, people will look at my channel and be like, oh God, she’s failed so many times.

[01:29:25] Grace: But it’s the taking the chance to put it out there, seeing what works and what doesn’t, and what can I learn to grow from that?

[01:29:30] Nathan: And then I think that there’s also something of being hands on yourself.

[01:29:34] Grace: Mm-hmm.

[01:29:34] Nathan: Of seeing exactly. Like now, because I’ve studied a little bit more and starting to learn Instagram more, I go through and I realize, oh, this video, yeah.

[01:29:43] Nathan: Is designed to get comments or this video is designed to get shares and you can see the little things. That if I wasn’t like really trying to study it myself, I wouldn’t have picked up on if I was just like, oh yeah. Hire a team and they’ll, and, and delegate.

[01:29:55] Grace: Yeah.

[01:29:56] Nathan: We wouldn’t have picked up on any of that.

[01:29:57] Grace: Yeah. I love, I love the whole strategies and I think [01:30:00] love LinkedIn, but what you can do on Instagram and what you see other content creators doing styles or tiny little hacks.

[01:30:06] Nathan: Right.

[01:30:07] Grace: Um, it’s interesting of how it can develop and grow. Yeah.

[01:30:10] Nathan: Yeah. That sounds good. I

[01:30:11] Grace: love that.

[01:30:12] Nathan: Grace, this has been amazing.

[01:30:13] Nathan: Nice. Where should people go to follow you as you build your personal brand and, and learn from Yeah. Your experiments and your failures and

[01:30:22] Grace: Yeah.

[01:30:22] Nathan: And all of that.

[01:30:23] Grace: Um, my Instagram is Grace Experiments and then my LinkedIn is just my name, Grace Miller. And then obviously watch all of the flight story shows.

[01:30:30] Grace: Yes. I don’t have a podcast but I work on so many amazing podcasts, so, and obviously this podcast they should listen to. So go for a second time and listen to it again.

[01:30:38] Nathan: Sounds good. Thank you so much for coming on.

[01:30:40] Grace: No, thank you for having me.

[01:30:42] Nathan: If you enjoyed this episode, go to YouTube and search the Nathan Berry Show.

[01:30:47] Nathan: Then hit subscribe and make sure to like the video and drop a comment. I’d love to hear what some of your favorite parts of the video were and also just who else do you think we should have on the show. Thank you so much for listening.

[00:00:00] Mike: Society sells a s lie. That money’s gonna solve all your problems. If you are putting off the present and, and sacrificing everything on the altar of more, you’re gonna wake up one day and realize, oh shit, it wasn’t worth it

[00:00:10] Nathan: as a kid, Mike Brown had the supercar posters on his wall. Success to him was a red Lamborghini, a car he actually came to own one day.

The house in Colorado was beautiful. You have a supercar collection.

[00:00:21] Mike: I, I made a significant amount of money along the way,

[00:00:23] Nathan: but then. He sold all of his supercars.

[00:00:26] Mike: I actually discovered what a rich life truly means and and what true wealth is actually defined by. It’s not as much money as I thought it was.

[00:00:33] Nathan: So what do you define it as? Now?

[00:00:35] Mike: Wealth is actually,

[00:00:37] Nathan: Mike says the big shift is moving from outcome goals to process goals. And when you do that, it forces you to confront the question every founder fears. What if it all goes away?

[00:00:47] Mike: No one cares about what you’re doing, which may sound kind of lonely, but it’s incredibly freeing.

But there are three levels of financial freedom. Level one, financial freedom is safety. The next step is five to seven years of liquidity. And then the [00:01:00] highest level of financial freedom is what I call a.

[00:01:07] Nathan: Mike, I think of you as Rich. I follow you on Instagram. We’ve hung out in person a bunch of different times. You are also friends with my rich friends, and you’ve got the supercars, you’ve got all of that. Is that an accurate assessment of your life?

[00:01:21] Mike: I would definitely, yeah. I, uh, I would definitely say that, uh, I’m rich, but it’s not the material possessions that, that I would use to define that.

[00:01:30] Nathan: Okay. Let’s stay on the material possessions for just a second. The house in Colorado is beautiful. You have the, uh, supercar collection, multiple supercars. It’s been a part of for as long as I’ve known you, you’ve had those, is that right?

[00:01:44] Mike: Yes. Had

[00:01:45] Nathan: had. Okay. You don’t have them anymore?

[00:01:47] Mike: I am in the process of selling off my last supercars.

[00:01:51] Nathan: Okay. Well, so I mean, first it’s something that brought you a lot of joy.

[00:01:55] Mike: Yeah. And, and this is, you know, my arc as I’ve [00:02:00] developed, um, you know, as a kid I had the red Lamborghini Kosh poster on my wall. And, and like that to me was success. And so when I got my first taste of success, when I made a million dollars for the first time, I went out and bought a car and I, and I kept buying cars.

It was a thing that brought me a lot of joy. I would, I would go to car meets, I would go to, you know, track days. It was, it was a really big part of my life. And then about a year ago, my wife looked at me and said, when was the last time you drove the Lambo? And I went and checked the odometer and I had put 800 miles combined on my two supercars in the last year.

[00:02:36] Nathan: Oh wow.

[00:02:37] Mike: And I realized that, so I, I have a saying that I love, which is, show me your bank account and show me your calendar and I’ll show you what you actually value.

[00:02:46] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:02:46] Mike: And my bank account was saying that I was valuing supercars because they were a significant portion of my net worth, but my calendar was saying that I didn’t anymore.

Right. So now I’m out of alignment.

[00:02:57] Nathan: Okay.

[00:02:57] Mike: And, you know, basically at this point now [00:03:00] I have two options, either reprioritize and go, no, I, I still love these supercars. I need to make time for them again. Or maybe I don’t care about this as much as I thought I did, or maybe my values have started to update.

And, and it was, that was the latter. That kind of made me decide that, Hey, this is, this brought me a ton of joy, but like Marie Kondo says, thank you for your service. And, uh, I started selling ’em off and, and man, it, it feels so freeing at this point in my life.

[00:03:28] Nathan: Do you regret, like, is that something where you’re like, oh, that actually didn’t provide me any value, waste of time, waste of money.

Like you regret that or? How do you approach it?

[00:03:37] Mike: So one of my core values is open-mindedness. And I, I love to say that my favorite feeling in the world is having my mind changed. And so I’m constantly updating my opinions, my values, you know, and, and how I spend my time. Like, I’m super happy about that period of my life.

I, I always tell people, buy the ticket, take the ride. Like, they brought me a, a tremendous amount of [00:04:00] joy and at some point they were no longer providing that outsize amount of joy.

[00:04:06] Nathan: Yeah, it’s, I was thinking about, um, the quote of personal finance is more personal than finance and how everything is, there’s this wide range of what you should spend your money on, all of this stuff.

And so I, I could see myself saying, like, looking at the supercars and, and that’s not a particular attraction of mine. Um. I’m probably in the airplane category, which we’ll get into your background related to airplanes ’cause it’s very cool as well. Um, but you know, I could see like, oh, maybe I won’t even buy the thing or go down that path because what if at some point it no longer brings me joy and I’ll move on.

And like, that’s a boring way to live your life. So I love the phrase of, you know, buy the ticket, take the ride. Like do the thing, try it on. Often these things don’t cost as much as you expect. Like, um, I had friends growing up who, uh, the dad was an airline [00:05:00] pilot. He was like a back country, uh, bush pilot in Alaska, early in his flying career, all the way up to like a air, you know, an airline pilot on a global scale.

And he loved adventures. And so they would like buy a sailboat, fix it up, sail it for two years, have a great time with it, and then sell it off for more than they bought it for, or like do the same with airplanes or various things. And so it doesn’t cost as much as you might think to go. To buy the ticket and take the ride.

And I like that approach that you have of like, yeah, do the thing and see if it serves you

[00:05:34] Mike: well. And and one of the things, you know, uh, the, the kind of common personal finance wisdom is like invest in experiences, not material possessions.

[00:05:42] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:05:42] Mike: But material possessions can be an experience. Like driving a Lamborghini is an experience like that, like objectively, that is a adrenaline rush.

You know, uh, throwing a, a Lamborghini into a drift on, on the track, you know, definitely counts as an experience in my life. So I’m, I’m super glad to [00:06:00] have that experience in my, in my, you know, content, like my library of work and. I’m constantly updating going, okay, does this still bring me that same level of joy?

And is it worth the investment? If yes, continue. If no, okay. How am I gonna update my belief system?

[00:06:16] Nathan: Right. Okay. I wanna dive into belief system all, there’s so much that I wanna cover, but I feel like people should have an understanding of who you are in your background. Right? So, uh, Navy fighter pilot.

[00:06:27] Mike: Yeah. I flew f eighteens for the Navy. Uh, I was a backseater like Goose, uh, from 2003 to 2011. Mm-hmm. And then I got out and moved back to my hometown of Midland, Texas.

[00:06:39] Nathan: Okay.

[00:06:39] Mike: Uh, somewhere I never thought I would live again, but, uh, that particular location in the US happens to be the oil and gas capital of, uh, of the US And so I, I started a oil and gas investment firm, and then I sold that in 2019.

[00:06:56] Nathan: Okay. What can you say as far like. People always wanna [00:07:00] know the scale of the exit in some way. What, what do you say along those lines?

[00:07:03] Mike: Yeah. Eight figure exit. Uh, you know, our, our best year, we did 30 million in revenue and, um, you know, we were also taking money out along the way. Mm-hmm. So I, I made a significant amount of money along the way de depending on how you define that.

Yeah,

[00:07:16] Nathan: exactly. Uh, so, and then, so you have that exit and you’ve achieved, I assume, all of your financial goals at this point, or was it, there’s still a push for more, the eight figures was supposed to be nine.

[00:07:28] Mike: Yeah. This, this is a, um, a really interesting thing. I thought I needed a hundred million dollars to be rich.

[00:07:33] Nathan: Okay.

[00:07:34] Mike: That was the number. And, uh, when I think about it, like where did that come from? It came from nowhere. That just, that just seemed like a good round number and that, and that’s how, you know, if somebody hasn’t put a whole lot of thought into their number, if it’s 1 million, 10 million or a hundred million,

[00:07:47] Nathan: if it’s around, like, even.

[00:07:50] Mike: Exactly. And, and so after my exit, I should have never had to work again.

[00:07:55] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:07:56] Mike: Instead, two years later, I [00:08:00] found myself losing a hundred thousand dollars a month in a failing company. There was days I didn’t even wanna get out of bed in the morning. I, I was so full of anxiety, stress, you know, I had this albatross and, you know, I ended up losing about $1.5 million inside of 18 months, but worse, I lost my peace.

You know, I, I was sacrificing my health, uh, you know, high stress in my marriage like this. This was a really, you know, objectively difficult experience that, that truly brought me to my knees. And, and I say often that I wish upon everyone a failure that forces a perspective shift, but that doesn’t make you start completely over.

And, and now I feel like it’s one of the greatest gifts that I’ve ever received.

[00:08:43] Nathan: Uh, you and Dan Marel are really good friends and, uh, I was thinking that we first met through Dan, we actually first met through Saul Orwell, who runs examine.com, and then we’ve hung out since then through, through Dan and, and all of that.

I think it’s something that he says we’re, you know, talking about hitting rock bottom and he says like, rock bottom is [00:09:00] actually a really good, like a really good foundation to build the future on. And is that kind of where you ended up of hitting a rock bottom and it’s time to rebuild?

[00:09:08] Mike: Yeah. And it turns out I’m not the first post exit founder to sort of go through this.

What does it all mean thing? This is a, a well documented

[00:09:15] Nathan: right,

[00:09:15] Mike: you know, existential crisis that, that comes with the identity loss of selling a company. And so, you know, I exited a marriage and my company at the same time.

[00:09:25] Nathan: Hmm.

[00:09:25] Mike: Uh, and I was really forced to evaluate. Who I am and what am I doing here in the first place.

And, you know, it was in losing that material wealth that I actually discovered. You know, for me what a rich life truly means and, and what true wealth, uh, is actually defined by. And, and newsflash is, is not as much money as I thought it was.

[00:09:49] Nathan: So what, what do you define it as? Now?

[00:09:52] Mike: For me, wealth is actually freedom.

And, and so I run workshops and retreats for entrepreneurs and, [00:10:00] uh, if we’re gonna talk about wealth mm-hmm. We need a, we need a working definition. Yeah. So I always ask the crowd like, what, what does wealth mean to you? And they usually start with some definition that centers around money. But eventually we always land on freedom for, for the most part, if you press an entrepreneur hard enough, why they started their company, they’re gonna say.

For freedom. I’m unemployable. I can’t work for somebody else. I want to live life on my own terms. So for me, that means freedom in five areas. And, and these are hierarchical, but not sequential. So meaning, freedom of health, foundationally, right? If I don’t, if I have, if I don’t have my health, I don’t have anything, freedom of relationships, do I have the freedom to, you know, authentically relate, be seen for who I am and not be beholden or, uh, controlled by others.

Three is freedom of time and then freedom of mind and freedom of soul. And so freedom of mind means being free from anxiety, uh, or depression or, you know, having an open mind to [00:11:00] update my belief system. And then freedom of soul is the highest on this sort of hierarchy of needs, which is connection to a purpose greater than myself and, uh, and those around me, you know, whether that be a higher power or, or humanity in general, however you define that.

[00:11:15] Nathan: Okay. So when you’re taking a group of entrepreneurs through this, like you get to this initial definition of wealth, what, how, like what are the reactions that you get from people? Is that, do people like immediately accept this definition and go, cool now for the next day of our workshop? Like, I’m good.

Or do they really wrestle and struggle with parts of it?

[00:11:35] Mike: Yeah, typically. I, I think it makes sense, uh, to most people, you know, and there’s, there’s less defined ways. Like a lot of times people will say, I want the freedom to spend time with people that I love doing the things that I love. Right? That, that’s kind of a more colloquial definition of, of what I just described, right?

So, you know, do I get to live my authentic life? You know, investing in experiences that bring me [00:12:00] joy and light me up and hopefully connected to other people.

[00:12:03] Nathan: I’m thinking about those different categories, right? If you think about freedom of time, that’s something for me. I. I’m at this stage, you know, if we’re, if we’re talking specifics on wealth, I am very, um, on paper wealthy, right?

I own a very large portion of a very valuable software company. Um, and then I can easily fund my life and all of that. It’s not very extravagant. Um, though I guess it’s all relative, you know, but a, a little hobby farm in Boise, Idaho, like doesn’t cost that much money to operate. But my time is very, is like completely committed, you know, and always.

So between, you know, as you have kids as well, right? Between three kids and running a company and all of that, like, pretty much every bit of my time is scheduled out. And, um, and it’s because I do deliberate things like schedule. You know, I, I have a time block, the [00:13:00] kids don’t know this, you know, but I have a time block of like, okay, for these four hours I’m gonna make sure there’s no work happening or that sort of thing.

And I’m like, going to be all in on. You know, family time or whatever else. But then after they go to bed, I’m right back to working. And so I, I struggle a lot with this balance of like achieving the goals. You know, I’m trying to scale a company. I, you know, I guess as far as round numbers, perhaps you’re trying to scale a company to a hundred million in annual revenue.

[00:13:28] Mike: Yeah.

[00:13:29] Nathan: And, uh, you know, achieve these goals, build up this team, serve these customers. And then also really kind of wrestling with, am I spending my time in the right ways? Am I, uh, I, I’m super proud of what I’m building, but also like, okay, do I wanna spend the next 10 years grinding as much as I am now?

Even though I think I have this balance, people are like, oh, I’m all in on work, or I’m all in on family. Like, no, I think I’ve found the nuance on [00:14:00] it. I don’t have a particular question, but I’m, I’m curious. I think you talk to people like me a lot.

[00:14:05] Mike: I do. Yes. And, and so, you know, the, the balance comes in, how do I take care of myself in the present moment?

[00:14:14] Nathan: Right.

[00:14:14] Mike: You know, investing in these experiences that light me up and bring me joy while also taking care of my future self. Mm-hmm. And hopefully, you know, serving my greater purpose, uh, here on, you know, in, in this short lifetime that, that we, we only have one of, and there does have, there has to be a balance, right?

Mm-hmm. And, and I think the trap that most people fall into is, I’ll finally be happy when.

[00:14:37] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:14:38] Mike: Right? So if you are putting off the present and, and sacrificing everything on the altar of more, I have a news flash for you. Uh, you’re gonna wake up one day and realize, oh shit, it wasn’t worth it.

[00:14:48] Nathan: Right.

[00:14:49] Mike: Right. So. At the same time, if you’re just, you know, yo lowing your way through life and only living in the present and, and not engaging in the habits or, you know, systems [00:15:00] practices that take care of future you, like, at some point your luck runs out, you know, and now you’re in a worse off position than you were before.

So how do I design a, a life that, you know, both takes care of me and the experiences I wanna have in the present, while also take care, taking care of future me?

[00:15:16] Nathan: I think I do a good job of that, of like the, something that I always talk about is journey over destination. And a destination is only interesting in that it gives you a unique or interesting journey, right?

If we have a really lame destination, like, like our, our destination is, uh, Chick-fil-A down the street, it’s like, well, there’s nothing interesting is gonna happen between here and there. Totally. Right? If our destination is, we’re going to build a company this way, we’re gonna impact these people,

[00:15:43] Mike: yeah,

[00:15:44] Nathan: then we’re probably gonna have a pretty interesting journey.

Um, and so I spent a lot of time thinking about. You know, now with the present, the journey that I’m on, that kind of thing. So I, I think I balance that pretty well.

[00:15:56] Mike: Yeah. Here, here’s how I think about goals, which is just like you named, [00:16:00] right? Goals are the vector, not the destination. And if you, uh, you know, there’s studies that have been done on outcome-based goals actually have, um, very little effect, uh, or efficacy on, on actually getting those goals.

But, but process based goals increase the likelihood of hitting the outcome by 40%. So when I think about goal setting, it’s, how do I imagine an outcome? And then break that into a process, you know, daily, weekly, monthly rhythms that, number one, make the goal inevitable. Meaning I’m gonna get so many honest reps in service of this goal that would be unreasonable not to achieve the goal, but then b.

How do I make that goal also irrelevant, meaning the life that I’ve lived in service of this goal is reward enough. So whether, whether you hit 90 million or 110 million

[00:16:51] Nathan: right,

[00:16:52] Mike: doesn’t really affect the fact that you’re waking up every day, pouring yourself into work that you love, not ignoring your family or the things that are, [00:17:00] that are also important to you.

And, and that is how I orient, you know, this kind of, how do I distribute my time? Question.

[00:17:08] Nathan: Yeah. Yeah, that makes sense. What’s, what’s an example of a goal that you have set and then maybe that that started as an outcome goal and you’ve reframed as a process goal?

[00:17:18] Mike: Yeah. For me, you know, I can hold a vision of a future where I’m speaking on the largest stages in the world and, and writing, you know mm-hmm.

Million copy bestseller books. Right. So, how do I achieve that goal? I can’t control that outcome.

[00:17:32] Nathan: Right?

[00:17:32] Mike: Right. What I can do is wake up and put my best work into the world every single day. I can develop a daily writing practice, you know, I can hone my craft from speaking on stage. And again, if I get enough honest reps and, and I’m truly, you know, honing my craft and pouring myself into my art, my audience will grow over time.

In 10 years, it would be unreasonable to think that my audience won’t be larger than it’s now. Right. I can’t control whether that’s gonna be a million [00:18:00] people or a hundred thousand or 10,000 people, but if it’s 10,000 of the right people. I love what I do, and I, and I love what, what I’m writing, and I, and I really, you know, feel like I’m living into my true purpose, then the number doesn’t actually matter.

[00:18:13] Nathan: I think a version of that for me is, well, you and I are both working, working on books. Yeah. I think you’re a little bit ahead of me. Um, since, you know, at the time of recording this, your, your book has, has released, uh, which we’ll talk about more in a moment. But, um, the, something that shifted for, I had a, a goal for a few years in a row of, to finish my book.

And I reframed that goal for 2025 and said, okay, my goal is just to write every day. And that’s it. And I’ve done it in the past where I had a even a number attached to that, like to write a thousand words a day. That was before I was running a company that, you know, it could like truly be the main thing.

Then, um, now the goal is just to write every day, and I built up a streak and I broke it and all that. And as we’re [00:19:00] recording today, I have 102 days in a row of writing. At, you know, at least for 10 minutes or something, you know, every day on this book. And like the manuscript has made significant progress.

And it was really switching from, uh, this year I’m gonna finish my book to, I’m just gonna write consistently and I’m gonna trust that the book gets finished. My, my workout and exercise goals actually shifted the same way last year I had very specific goals that I wanted to achieve. Yeah. This year the goal is to work out 160 times, so slightly more than three times a week, you know, and trusting that if a meaningful number of those are with a personal trainer who’s like, making sure that I’m pushing myself and I’m following a program, like I’m gonna achieve meaningful progress.

And so, yeah. Exactly as you’re saying, I have shifted in most categories from outcome goals to process goals.

[00:19:52] Mike: Yeah. And I think even a more helpful framing can be, you know, how do I want to feel like why am I working out in the first place, right? Like, what is, what is [00:20:00] 160 workouts gonna do? Well, hopefully that’s giving me a body that moves the way I want it to, right?

That allows me to go on adventures and, and do things that, that light me up. Right? That’s the actual point of working out. So if you work out 142 times or 168 times, it’s sort of irrelevant to the outcome of having a body that works. You can’t work out zero times.

[00:20:19] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:20:20] Mike: Like, like at some point that’s not gonna, that’s not gonna serve your, your end goal.

[00:20:24] Nathan: I specifically. Just going for the stuff, block and volleyball. And so I want to jump higher so that I can get that. That’s, that’s the specific, you know, the thing that I visualize.

[00:20:34] Mike: Yeah, totally. Right. And then, you know, back to this, this supercar thing.

[00:20:38] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:20:39] Mike: Is eventually at some point you’ll, you’ll do the stuff block.

[00:20:42] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:20:43] Mike: And then go, okay, did that feel the way I think it’s gonna feel If, yes, cool. I keep going on this vector. Or Oh, like that wasn’t as cool as I thought it was gonna be. Great. What’s my next goal? How do I update my belief system?

[00:20:53] Nathan: Yeah, that makes sense. Something that you talk about is dirty fuel versus clean fuel and like, what is [00:21:00] powering you, what is driving you?

I think most people don’t even ask the question of what’s driving me? What’s behind these goals? Maybe first, like, how do you define dirty fuel? Like what is that? And then we can get into clean fuel.

[00:21:12] Mike: Well, something I, I saw you say recently is that entrepreneurship is a trauma response. Yeah. And uh, for the most part I agree with that.

Right. Uh, you know, we. How we think about money and how we relate to money typically is formed in, you know, childhood early adolescence. Mm-hmm. We’re imprinted with these stories, how our parents relate to money, whether we’re rich in a, in a poor town, or poor in a rich town. Like we, we form all these beliefs about money and that, that shape our worldview.

So for me, I grew up watching my parents fight every single night of my life.

[00:21:45] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:21:46] Mike: And they only fought about one thing, money. And so, you know, as, uh, you know, 12, 13-year-old, I made a promise. I said, I’m gonna have so much money when I grow up that I’ll never have to fight with my [00:22:00] spouse about money.

That I’ll never worry about money.

[00:22:02] Nathan: Right.

[00:22:03] Mike: And, and that was the thing that drove me. I made the

[00:22:05] Nathan: exact same promise. Yeah. Had the same experience. Made the same promise.

[00:22:07] Mike: Yeah, exactly. And that, and that was the thing that drove me to become successful. I, I worked hard in school. Mm-hmm. Went to a top tier university, eventually went and tested myself in, in combat, and then got out, started and sold the company.

So the, the thing worked, the promise worked. Right. But it was the second half of that vow that was no longer serving me because I’ll never worry about money. For me, my brain conflated that with being responsible with money.

[00:22:31] Nathan: Okay?

[00:22:32] Mike: Right. And so when we, when we talk about personal finance, you, you hear about scarcity and abundance.

Right? And if you just think more abundant thoughts and get rid of scarce thoughts than everything’s gonna work out. But like I was the most abundant guy on the planet. I had this very easy come, easy go relationship with money I was spending and investing, you know, very, uh, uh, freely, uh, and, uh, that was not serving me.

I would put my back against the wall in order to elicit, you know, this high performance, you know, [00:23:00] create pressure for myself to earn more money. And it was this vicious loop that I couldn’t break out of.

[00:23:05] Nathan: And so. What’s an example of that loop? Like how, like if practically, you know, something that you were spending money on or Yeah.

Get more specific there.

[00:23:15] Mike: Yeah. So, um, you know, my, my company first started making a significant amount of amount of money in 2013. Mm-hmm. And I started, uh, angel investing and, and my thesis was I want to give. Other veterans the same

[00:23:32] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:23:32] Mike: Unbelievable life that I have, right? Yeah. And so I was writing checks into veterans company as clear

[00:23:36] Nathan: a motive as possible.

Yeah,

[00:23:38] Mike: totally. Right? And, and, and it felt very altruistic at the time. Um, but I was writing checks into these veteran led companies. It turns out I’m the world’s worst angel investor.

[00:23:47] Nathan: Angel investing is a good way to get rid of money. 25 grand at a time.

[00:23:50] Mike: Yeah, exactly. Um,

[00:23:53] Nathan: spoken from the experience, getting rid of money 25 grand at a time.

[00:23:56] Mike: Totally right. And, um, but again, I was doing this in the [00:24:00] name of service. Mm-hmm. Like, like I, I had in my mind really good reasons why, why I was doing this. But, you know, I invested about two and a half million dollars, uh, over, you know, five or seven years of, of angel investing. Had I put that money in the s and p, like it would be worth like almost $10 million now.

[00:24:18] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:24:19] Mike: Uh, newsflash is, I will be very lucky. If I make my money back

[00:24:25] Nathan: mm-hmm.

[00:24:25] Mike: Over seven years, that’s a terrible return. You know, overall, most likely I will lose money. I, I will never make that principle back. Okay. So if I go back to my mission of serving veterans, you know, now I’m on the board of a nonprofit that teaches meditation to veterans.

[00:24:42] Nathan: Mm-hmm. Right?

[00:24:43] Mike: For me, that is a much higher leverage activity than writing checks into

[00:24:49] Nathan: Right.

[00:24:49] Mike: Companies that are never gonna generate a return. So I’m still serving veterans at a really high level, but I’m using my time now instead of my money as the main leverage point in order to, [00:25:00] you know, connect to that higher purpose of service.

[00:25:02] Nathan: Hey, I hope you’re enjoying this episode. I’m gonna just quickly jump in to tell you about Craft and Commerce. It’s the annual conference that we host at Kit for creators who are serious about building a real business. We host it every June here in Boise, Idaho. As so much of our work shifts to ai. The thing you can’t replicate is being in the room with other creators who get what you’re building.

We have incredible speakers and workshops, but honestly, the real value is the people you’ll meet and the relationships you’ll build. We sold out last year, and this year is gonna sell out really soon. So you wanna grab your ticket, go to kit.com/conference. So going back to the idea of dirty fuel versus clean fuel.

[00:25:42] Mike: Yeah.

[00:25:42] Nathan: So what we’re talking about the, the childhood trauma reaction to that and that dirty fuel. We’re not saying dirty fuel in the way of, like, it foul was the engine and it failed.

[00:25:54] Mike: Totally. It worked.

[00:25:55] Nathan: It worked very, very well. Really effect effectively.

[00:25:58] Mike: Yeah.

[00:25:59] Nathan: That moment where you say [00:26:00] like, I’m going to become world class, I’m making money.

[00:26:02] Mike: Yeah.

[00:26:03] Nathan: And so that will never be me. I think some of the most important, like, or the most insightful questions you can ask is, one, what are the time in your life you saw something happen and said, that will never be me.

[00:26:13] Mike: Yeah.

[00:26:13] Nathan: And then the other, the inverse of it, what is the time in your life you saw something and said, oh, that could be me.

[00:26:19] Mike: Yeah.

[00:26:19] Nathan: And so we, we use that as fuel to achieve these incredible goals. But you’re saying that at some point that dirty fuel is gonna stop working for you.

[00:26:29] Mike: Yeah. And and for me, uh, the day I sold my company, I thought I would never be unhappy again.

[00:26:37] Nathan: Okay. That’s an interesting story.

[00:26:39] Mike: Like a legitimate, I had done everything society would tell me would, would make me happy.

[00:26:43] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:26:43] Mike: Right? I had the house and the cars, I had the money, you know, I had the time freedom to do whatever I want. Uh, and, and really, like, I think society tells a society that money’s gonna solve all your problems. Uh, money can solve money problems, right? Mm-hmm. But, but then at some, at some point you wake up [00:27:00] and you’re still the same person, right?

And, and for me, I was externalizing, uh, my internal worth, right? I, I was using my achievements as a measuring stick for self-worth. And, and what happens the day you sell a company is people come to you and they go, oh my God, I can’t wait to see what you do next. And I was like, next, like that.

[00:27:21] Nathan: I did the thing

[00:27:22] Mike: that was really hard.

Right. But we have this idea that everything has to be up and to the right. And if you build and sell a company, the next company’s gotta be even bigger. Right. And there was a tremendous amount of pressure. So now I’m, I’m taking what I made, I’m swinging for the fences. I’m going all in. Right. I’m, I’m literally, uh, to, to use the popular top gun phrase like, I’m writing checks that my butt can’t cash.

Yeah. Right. I’m, I am investing, uh, you know, high risk, high reward mindset. The ironies, that’s exactly how I made my money in the first place. But you know, when it comes to wealth, uh, so when we, when you start a company, right? We, [00:28:00] we start off as a startup founder, burn the boats, wear all the hats, Rob Peter to pay Paul.

Mm-hmm. And then at some point as you scale, you need to switch, uh, your mindset to a scale up founder. Where now you’re delegating hiring people that are better than you. And, and the skill sets completely change. Same thing when it comes to money and building wealth, right? You start off as an accumulator of wealth.

So you bet on yourself, you take big swings, you know you’re all in all the time, but at some point now you have more to lose than you have to gain by taking these risk. So you need to shift your mindset to becoming a defender of wealth. And, and that’s the shift that I failed to make. I was still acting like an accumulator when I should have been playing defense.

[00:28:39] Nathan: Well, like I think about this reinvestment idea because if we go to the extremes, right? We take Elon Musk, he took his money from zip two and he. Poured all of the chips back into the table and then, you know, went and did uh, x.com and PayPal, right. And then won. [00:29:00] And then he took it all and said, sweet, now let’s put half into SpaceX and half into Tesla.

And now let’s like go all in again. Were you feeling like that was the approach you were supposed to take? Because people were saying like, oh, what’s next? When what you wanted to do is say, actually I’d love to be all in on index funds and spend my time the way I want and be free of this stress.

[00:29:22] Mike: Yeah, I mean, I’ve, I’ve got another story.

Uh, when I sold my company, we, uh, I bought a local commercial property with, uh, a couple of business partners and, um. We bought the property for two and a half million. We put about $750,000 into renovations. And uh, three years later we sold that property for six and a half million dollars. So

[00:29:46] Nathan: great return,

[00:29:47] Mike: great return, right?

Yeah. Like you, if you’re listening to this right now, you’re probably saying like, oh my God, Mike is a legendary real estate investor, right? But when we talk about the returns, like what are the hidden costs here? Well, I spent [00:30:00] hundreds of hours doing due diligence, you know, permitting from the city, managing the construction, finding and vetting, uh, you know, firms, subcontractors to do the construction.

Once we got tenants moved in, you know, we were, we were managing the property yourselves. And again, like 18 months after I sold my company, I found myself unclogging toilets in this, in this commercial property going like, what the hell am I doing here? Like, how, how did this happen? You know, how did I go from this massive financial windfall to unclogging toilets?

Well, I was valuing the wrong things. I was valuing return on investment when I should have been valuing return on happiness.

[00:30:35] Nathan: Dive. Let’s stay a little bit on the dirty fuel side for a second.

[00:30:37] Mike: Yeah.

[00:30:38] Nathan: Because you and I have the same example of dirty fuel, but as you talk to a lot of other entrepreneurs, what are some other examples of dirty fuel?

The, you know, the, the chip on the shoulder or whatever, and the line is, chips on shoulders, put chips in pockets, right? Like it, it works to get a return, but what are the other examples that you come across?

[00:30:56] Mike: Yeah. Basically anything that’s coming from proving energy.

[00:30:59] Nathan: Mm-hmm. [00:31:00]

[00:31:00] Mike: Right. Or external validation.

Again, back to this idea of I’ll finally be happy when, right. My third grade teacher said I wasn’t gonna be, I wasn’t gonna amount to anything. You know, I’ll show her. I’ll go build a hundred million dollar company. It turns out she doesn’t care. Right.

[00:31:16] Nathan: She doesn’t even remember the fact, she may have not even thought that you wouldn’t amount to something.

[00:31:21] Mike: Yeah, totally. And, and, and you know, we see that it’s very per pervasive in hustle culture is like, you know, if you don’t have haters, then you’re not doing anything of significance. Mm-hmm. Like, that is a, a fairytale. Right. Right. The more successful I’ve become there, there hasn’t been this army of haters that have come out of the woodwork, like trying to tear me down.

Like most people are genuinely happy. Uh, or if not, they’re just so worried about the, their own life that they can’t be bothered to look up and and see what Ive been doing. Right. The state

[00:31:48] Nathan: you make is thinking that people are thinking about you at all.

[00:31:50] Mike: Yeah, exactly. Like, like no one cares about what you’re doing.

Right. Which, um, may sound kind of lonely, but it’s incredibly freeing.

[00:31:59] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:31:59] Mike: And the [00:32:00] reality is, is that I was ex like I was outsourcing all of my self worth on what could I achieve? How could I measure myself against others? Do I have more than that guy, you know, or, or girl. Like, like that was where I was deriving all of my value.

And, and it turns out that is a never ending treadmill.

[00:32:20] Nathan: Right?

[00:32:20] Mike: Right. Like, like you can’t feel enough through external wealth or achievements or, you know, building a bigger company. It’s something you can only create inside of yourself.

[00:32:31] Nathan: I, uh, I don’t know if we’re the same person or, but I did the exact thing and you know, my example of of that is growing up in a family where money was very scarce.

[00:32:45] Mike: Yeah.

[00:32:46] Nathan: Watching my parents fight and ultimately divorce, uh, o over money and just realizing the sheer amount of conflict that it causes. That’s why when someone says money doesn’t buy happiness, uh, I’m like. Well, one, you don’t know how to spend it. [00:33:00] Um, but two, the lack of money Sure. Causes a lot of stress.

And so, you know, there, there is this element and we’ll get into that. An idea of enough. Yeah. Talk about that more. But I got to the point where I was like, okay, you know, when I learned that making money is a skill and I obsessed over getting very good at that skill. And so I went to the point where, let’s see, in a two year period, I went from making $63,000 a year as a software designer at a company to then being self-employed with an audience, making $250,000 a year with complete time freedom.

All of that I was writing, I, you know, I had completely transformed my life and it was through this incredible drive writing a thousand words a day for 600 days in a row. All of this. And I felt really good about myself, right? Self worth got that locked in, but it was entirely based on. What I could create and accomplish.

And so I [00:34:00] didn’t realize the, like razor’s edge that I was walk, watch, uh, walking and one small step off the other side. I ended up spiraling to the point where I was dealing with depression, suicide, all of us. And it all started with, I got shingles where uh, our second kid was born and he ended up getting sick.

I tried to like play superhero, take care of everybody and all of that. Got super stressed out, got shingles, spent six months on painkillers, like dealing with all of this and I could not get back out of it because I was so hung up on this drug of my self-worth is derived from what I accomplish. And it’s this exactly what you’re talking about, this dirty fuel, that it totally works until it doesn’t, you know?

And so like I would end up in this vicious cycle of, okay, let me. Get something done, and I’d try to do it and I couldn’t get it [00:35:00] done. And instead of having like grace and patience with myself, I was just would slide, you know, it would like further diminish my self-worth. And that was in, I mean, it took me years to get out of that.

[00:35:11] Mike: Yeah. It’s, it’s, it is really, is a vicious cycle. Mm-hmm. Right. Uh, you know, the, the negative self-talk intensifies, I mean, look, uh, most entrepreneurs, uh, myself and, and it sounds like you included, are world class at being hard on themselves. Yes. Right. If there’s, if there’s one thing we are good at it is putting pressure on ourselves.

And again, that, that is a really effective way to get things done. But the problem is, it, it has built in fragility. Right. And if you go back to, uh, you know, the five freedoms that I talked about, right. What, what it sounds like happened to you and, and certainly happened to me is I failed to diversify. I failed to become multidimensional and build wealth.

In all of these other areas. ’cause I was all in on, on making money and achievement [00:36:00] as, as the source of my self worth. Right? Once you start to build multi-dimensionally, now you become anti-fragile, right? So if you know your health goes out the window, but you have loving relationships and you know, wealth in these other areas, right?

You can focus on that one area and and, and get it back, right? But if all of your self-worth is, is tied up in how much money you make or how big your company is, or winning a gold medal, like whatever the achievement is, right? And you don’t do that thing, something prevents you from doing that thing, now all of a sudden you find yourself in a really dark place.

[00:36:35] Nathan: Okay. So that, that’s the dirty fuel side of it.

[00:36:37] Mike: Yeah.

[00:36:39] Nathan: What do you mean by clean fuel?

[00:36:41] Mike: So clean fuel is this process of, of switching from, from this dirty fuel. So the, the first step is identifying what is my dirty fuel, right? Like, like what am I, what am I trying to prove here? Right? And, and it usually, unfortunately, pain is a great teacher.

You know, usually comes from some sort of [00:37:00] reckoning where you realize, oh no, like I’ve climbed this mountain. Here I am on the top, and, and the view here is empty. Then we start this process of switching to clean fuel. For me that means. Building in purpose or in service of something greater than yourself, right?

Like you are wildly passionate about the creator economy and, and serving creators, and that’s why you do what you do, right? You, you’ve already said you have enough money to live the life that you wanna live, right? So, so why do you get up and, and do this every day? Well, it’s because it makes you feel really good to serve other people.

[00:37:35] Nathan: Yeah. Oh yeah.

[00:37:36] Mike: And this is, this is a feature, not a bug. Like, like it was designed like our, you know, it’s, it’s designed this way. Um, I often say the day you become truly wealthy is the day you realize it’s not about you, right? And so now I wake up and I, and I write, and I speak and, and I do the things that I do because hopefully I can help other people that are on this same journey, you know, [00:38:00] maybe a, a step or two behind and save them some of the pain that I went through.

Like that to me, is, is the best feeling there is. Like if I can find somebody who’s struggling, who feels trapped by their business. Who’s been on this treadmill of more this lie that we’ve been sold, and I can help shift their perspective and then see them flourishing on the backside. Like, oh my God, that’s the coolest.

Like everything else is a waste of time to me. Like, that is how I wanna spend my time.

[00:38:24] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:38:25] Mike: And not only does it benefit them, it benefits me in turn, it benefits my family. Right. And, and so now it creates this, this up upward spiraling flywheel to borrow a term from a, from a guy that, uh, uh,

[00:38:39] Nathan: sure likes to talk about flywheels.

[00:38:41] Mike: Yeah. Um, you know, but, but now we’re in this positive direction where, uh, wealth is a byproduct of service. Mm-hmm.

[00:38:49] Nathan: You know, we talked about the definition of rich or wealthy not being the number of zeros in a bank account. How, like how do you define being wealthy or rich now? [00:39:00]

[00:39:00] Mike: Yeah. So, you know, when we back up to first principles, um, wealth is a feeling, right?

Mm-hmm. So, so most people think they want more money. What they actually want is the feeling that they imagine that money’s gonna give them. Right? So for me, money has two purposes. Number one is to close the open loops, the anxiety loops, right? It is really hard to, to feel rich if you’re worrying about paying your rent at the end of the month, right?

Or putting food on table for your kids. So, you know, first step is to get enough money to actually live the life you wanna live. Like close the anxiety loop. And then number two is to increase joy and fulfillment in the present moment, right? So for me, joy comes from experiences doing things I love with people I love, and fulfillment comes from serving others.

And, and that to me, if I have some element of those two things in my life, like that’s how I use my money to feel rich in the present.

[00:39:50] Nathan: I think it’s such an important conversation to say what is rich? What is wealth? Because everyone is striving towards something that they don’t define. [00:40:00] Actually, there was a quote from Jimmy Carr, the comedian, where someone asked him in kind of a heckling way, you know, they, as they just shout out at a comedian on stage, like, how rich are you?

And he like, stops. And he is like, okay, lemme put this in terms that you would understand. I have 100 money. And first you’re like, what? And he, I love that line. ’cause he is, he’s pointing to the absurdity of the question.

[00:40:21] Mike: Yeah.

[00:40:21] Nathan: Where he is like, how rich am I? Like, why does it matter? But then there’s a genuine part behind the question that he actually speaks to next.

And he says like, okay, first being rich is relative. And I define rich as if I had any more money, I wouldn’t spend my time differently. I wouldn’t do anything differently than I do now. If that’s true for you, then you’re rich. Well, under that definition, I feel very, very rich because I spend my time doing exactly what I wanna do and working on those things and with the people that I want and.

I think that’s so important is to say like, [00:41:00] where is the bottleneck in the decisions that I’m making? Or all of that. And you realize like, oh, often money, money is not the bottleneck. And if we can get to that point, then it’s like, okay, cool. We’re rich.

[00:41:14] Mike: Yeah. I mean, so, you know, back to this idea that that wealth is a feeling.

[00:41:19] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:41:19] Mike: Right? Feelings by their definition, can only be experienced in the present moment. Right. You can’t be rich in the future. You can’t be rich in the past. You can, you can only feel rich in the present.

[00:41:28] Nathan: Hmm.

[00:41:28] Mike: So how can I feel more rich more of the time? Well, if I’m constantly worried about having enough money, right.

It’s really hard to remain present. So, so that’s the first thing to solve. And then, uh, you know, as I help, you know, founders and entrepreneurs, uh, start to define this, first of all, we get really clear on the life you wanna live. So I do an exercise called the Unbreakable Year. Um, clay Bear calls it the perfect calendar.

You know, there’s a lot of variations of this exercise out there, which is define that actual life. What does your perfect day look like? What does, what does an ideal week [00:42:00] look like? And then map it out across a year. And then the next step is add it up. Like, how much does this cost, right? And look, if you have seven vacation homes and a, and a fleet of Lamborghinis, like it’s, you know, it’s gonna take a lot of money.

But what typically happens when I run people through this exercise, if, if they’ve, you know, found some reasonable amount of success as a founder, they go, oh man, I already have enough. Or, I’m within striking distance right, of enough money to live this life. Which means, back to this Jimmy car definition, more money is actually not gonna help me get closer to the things that I actually value.

But maybe putting my phone away and spending more time with my kids.

[00:42:38] Nathan: Right,

[00:42:39] Mike: right. Being present at dinner, making sure I go to the school place. Right. Taking time for adventure and, and you know, traveling and, I mean the, these are the things that most people would say make a rich life and you don’t need that much money to do it.

Some money is better than none

[00:42:55] Nathan: than,

[00:42:55] Mike: but it reaches diminishing marginal utility very quickly.

[00:42:58] Nathan: Yeah, I was thinking about a [00:43:00] recent kind of ridiculous example of this is, I think the thing that brings me the most joy right now is that my 11-year-old and I are currently building a hobbit hole in the backyard on our farm.

And it’s not inexpensive to build, you know, we’re, we’re thousands of dollars into this venture of another lumber delivery that I’m hoping is coming in. I’m hoping it arrive sometime today while we were recording. Don’t have to call those and pester them about it. Um, but it’s this thing that we’re doing together and I kept thinking like.

Okay, this is ridiculous. Are we actually going to build like an underground house and it’s gonna spend, like, I’m gonna spend maybe $10,000 by the time we’re all said and done because like waterproofing this thing and we need an excavator and we need all of this. And I just decided like, look, this is gonna be the thing that he remembers for a very long time.

Like, remember when dad and I built a hobbit hole? And you’re like, okay. And so I’ve just decided, all right, [00:44:00] we’re doing it. And that even included things like spending $900 to rent an excavator for a week, teaching him how to drive it, and then be like, knock yourself out. And then, you know, a few days later, we have a 20 foot wide, 10 foot deep hole.

Then he is like, great, this will work for the habbit hole. I mean, that to me is rich in every way because the money wasn’t a factor. I had the time to allocate towards it. You know, we can spend an entire Saturday and I’m like teaching him how to frame walls and build this whole thing. And, you know, stay consistent with a project when he’s ready to go balance and go play video games or something.

Um, and it’s just been, it’s been really, really fun. And I was like, wow, I talking about a moment. You know, we’re out in the cold in December in Idaho, and I’m like, I feel really rich right now.

[00:44:48] Mike: Yeah. I mean, you’re maximizing return on happiness.

[00:44:50] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:44:51] Mike: Right. And, and you know, again, so often in the personal finance world, you know, we, we think of [00:45:00] ROI as, you know, the, the number one driver of what we should be doing with our money.

And there’s, there’s a lot of information out there about how we should, we should grow our money. But, you know, first principle is just like, so, like, for what, what, what am I doing this for? Right. And, and, uh. You know, the do dollar value can be completely arbitrary. Like, you know, I built my dream home in, in Colorado near Red Rocks.

Uh, if I poured two years of my life designing this house, right? It was an expensive house.

[00:45:29] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:45:30] Mike: Um, but it brings me a tremendous amount of joy, right? It’s become a gathering place for people from all over the world. You know, founders come once a month for a founder’s dinner. I host events there. I host retreats there.

Literally, like, I probably wouldn’t be doing the thing that I’m doing now, had I not built this house and designed this house around hosting retreats. And I was like, oh no, I gotta, I have to host a retreat now. So I circled a date, I hosted my first retreat, and like, that’s where, you know, I, I sort of launched this coaching career.[00:46:00]

It has brought me an ridiculously outsized amount of happiness.

[00:46:05] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:46:05] Mike: Right. So that was a really high ROI and ROH

[00:46:09] Nathan: mm-hmm.

[00:46:10] Mike: Uh, activity. But Coco Chanel says, you know, the best things in life are either free or very, very expensive. Right. And so, uh, you know, going down to the pond and fishing for an afternoon with my son brings me the same, the same amount of happiness.

Right. So it becomes less about the money and less about understanding what is it that lights you up.

[00:46:29] Nathan: Yeah. I love that. Yeah. As someone who loves airplanes, I’m glad that, you know, very expensive is on that list. Right. Like, it, it brings me so much joy. I think that that’s the thing probably in, in this conversation I’m realizing is I feel very aligned in how I spend my time and money with what I wanna do in life.

And that’s like a very reassuring thing because I think that we end up in this place of, it doesn’t always, it doesn’t always feel stable. Like maybe the, the switch from dirty fuel to clean fuel. Like, [00:47:00] oh, that’s a binary switch. And now that I’m, now I’m over here, I like, I even forgot what it was like to run on dirty fuel.

And that is not the case at all. Like it is very much a spectrum and it change changes over time and goes back and forth.

[00:47:11] Mike: Yeah. It change, it changes on the daily, right? Like, um, you know. For example, you know, posting online, uh, it would be amazing to say that I never check how many likes I get.

[00:47:23] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:47:24] Mike: Right.

I’m just building from this beautiful, you know, completely whole place where I just put content out and I never see if anybody likes it. No. Like, I’m still looking at my stats and being like, did this resonate with people? And the more people it resonated with, like the better it feels like, even though I’ve spent the last 10 years of my life healing this achievement wound and, and switching to a cleaner fuel, like of course I still find myself waking up and, and you know, chasing and being like, oh, I wish my audience was bigger and I I was doing better, and all that.

Like, you can’t escape that stuff.

[00:47:53] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:47:54] Mike: For me, it’s how quick can I recognize that I’m in that loop? [00:48:00] Right. And then how, how can I close the gap and return to presence? Mm-hmm. Right? Because again, if I’m thinking, well, if I just had more likes on this post and then I would be happy. Right. I’m, I’m not in the present moment.

I’m living in this future imagined state that only exists within my mind, right? And so how can I snap myself out of that and return to present? And, and that really is the trick. Like how can I be more present, more of the time is going to yield a richer life. Because, because you’re living in that present moment, free to experience the feeling of wealth.

[00:48:31] Nathan: If I’m being totally honest, sometimes I worry that clean fuel, this desire to serve others, help them, them achieve their dreams, have this impact, might not have the same edge that the dirty fuel does of the, like, I just wanna win. I wanna prove something, you know, I’m going to grind it out. And there’s this idea in business that if you’re not growing, you’re shrinking.

And so I think about the stress, uh, I don’t want anyone to get this [00:49:00] idea like, oh, Nathan is just like a zen monk over here who has a dial in. I end up in the stress place at times of like, okay, are we. Driving towards outcomes. Are we innovating the level that we need to? Are we beating our competitors?

Are we growing our market share so that we can have this impact so that I can even achieve these goals? And so how do you think about that of like, is clean fuel as effective for achieving outcomes as dirty fuel?

[00:49:27] Mike: Yeah. So this is, this is a question, uh, prospective clients ask a lot. It’s like, if I engage in this healing work, will I lose my edge?

And my answer is, if, if your edge is fueled by darkness, like probably, and they

[00:49:43] Nathan: want the reassurance and you’re like, yeah, no,

[00:49:45] Mike: and, and the beauty is the edge that you build in its place is so much more powerful.

[00:49:50] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:49:51] Mike: Right? But necessarily those outcome based goals may start to shift. They start to become less important.

Like as we [00:50:00] do healing work and as our egos grip starts to loosen a little bit, the things that we thought. We wanted, or the things that we thought would make us happy start to shift and change. And that’s okay. Right? So if we think about, you know, people like Elon or Lance Armstrong or Tiger Woods, like, you know, insert elite performer here.

[00:50:22] Nathan: Yep.

[00:50:22] Mike: Right. You know, that comes, greatness comes with a cost. Mm-hmm. Right? And so, uh, why do you want the things that you want? Is, is a, is a question that, that I think is really important, right? And again, this gets back to a feeling, well, if I’m the best in the world, I think that’s gonna feel a certain way, right?

But if the path to greatness is littered with, uh, proverbial bodies along the way, right? If you’ve been stepping on others and, you know, ignoring your family and, and sacrificing your health, and all of these things that we sacrifice for greatness, the question is, was it worth it? And, [00:51:00] uh, you know, I, I can’t tell anybody whether that’s worth it or not, but I’ve worked with enough people.

Have achieved the outcome. You know, I, I, I’ve worked with lots of, you know, multi nine or, uh, you know, billionaire clients, um, who are fundamentally unhappy. They got everything they ever wanted, and it didn’t fill ’em up. So now what? Right. So where do you

[00:51:22] Nathan: go?

[00:51:23] Mike: Right, exactly. So, um, you know, yeah, by all means, if, uh, if success is all at all costs, is what’s driving you, and, and you wanna see for yourself how it feels on the other side.

Like, you know, don’t do any trauma work, don’t do any healing work, like, just keep on the path. But my question would be like, how’s that working for you? Mm-hmm. Right. And usually when pressed, you know, people are gonna say, Hey, it’s not working as well as I thought it was. Something needs to give. I’m burnout, I’m unfulfilled, I’m unhappy.

My relationship is in shambles. My kids barely know me. Like, whatever it [00:52:00] is. There’s usually something that they’re ready to shift. And sometimes that means softening some of those big goals Right. Now that doesn’t mean giving up. Right. And I think, and I think that’s that, like, it doesn’t mean going off riding off in the sunset and, and sipping margaritas on the beach.

Like that’s, that’s fun for a little while. I’ve been retired twice in my life. Like it’s, it’s fun for a little while, but at some point we need a sense of purpose mm-hmm. To wake up to. Right. But, but then framing what does success look like really becomes the operative question.

[00:52:32] Nathan: You mentioned a few of these, like big name public figures, whether it’s Elon who, uh, like runs on the, the strongest dirty fuel of anyone maybe we’ve ever seen in history.

Totally. Right. Um, while still having an insane positive impact on technology and, and everything else. But like that man, I mean, he says it publicly, like he lives a, a tortured existence.

[00:52:56] Mike: Right.

[00:52:56] Nathan: Um, you know, these other people. Who have, [00:53:00] we’ve seen their rise and fall over time. Is there anyone that comes to mind where you think of like seeing them have this drive and ambition on dirty fuel and then make that switch to clean fuel?

[00:53:12] Mike: Yeah, I mean, I, I think that there’s, um, a lot of people who have healed along the way, and the beauty is maybe what they built from that place of, of dirty fuel was enough to create a sort of escape velocity where now they can heal, but they’re, they’re, they’ve already left the solar system and, and, you know, they’re on the path.

Uh, and, and so I think you can heal along the way and the hope is, uh, that you’ve already, you know, achieved enough where now the goals continue to become inevitable. You can continue to grow. And, and like you said, everybody exists on, on a spectrum, right? Right. It’s like the goal isn’t to eliminate this darkness.

Mm-hmm. Right. I, I, I really think, um, it’s, I don’t wanna say impossible, but, but, but I think it is. It’s really difficult to completely get rid of [00:54:00] these dirty fuel patterns. Right. The question is, how do I recognize ’em and then, uh, interrupt those patterns and return to presence mm-hmm. And joy in the moment.

[00:54:10] Nathan: You know, that’s something that I think is really important. ’cause it, you could get caught up in this idea of like, oh, I need to switch from dirty fuel to clean fuel. I need to totally rewire my brain and all of that. And that’s not what I hear you asking people to do. I hear you asking ’em to take a first step of just awareness and say, and see what it does for you.

And you might be like, you know what, for this period of my life, I’m aware of this and I’m still gonna use it as fuel. And you’re like, all right. Sure. Just, just be aware of it.

[00:54:37] Mike: Yeah. What, what’s it costing you? Mm-hmm. Let’s get really clear on the cost because, because everything sort of can be shifted in this cost benefit analysis.

Yeah. Right? Like if I look at, and first of all, it is also a false dichotomy, right? That you have to. The only way to build something of meaning is, is from dirty fuel. Right? Like, again, it’s effective, but, but you know, [00:55:00] moving toward the light, like service is a, is a really great driver and, and impact is an amazing driver and there are lots of people that have achieved massive things in the world from, you know, a true place of service.

Mm-hmm. So, you know, I don’t think that they’re mutually exclusive. Uh, but that edge

[00:55:19] Nathan: I think of people like, uh, Sam Walton talk has talked about this, of, of this idea of coming back to value to customers. You know? Right. When, when in doubt of where to work in your business or what to do is like, well, what will provide value?

And that can very much be a clean fuel of like, how do I serve my customers, my market, all of that. Instead of a, oh, I’m fueled by what is this competitor doing? How do I properly counteract it? Or I’m fueled by if I don’t. Achieve this goal, then my parents will never be proud of me or, you know, any other version there.

[00:55:55] Mike: Yeah, definitely. I mean, I, I, I, uh, have a dear friend, uh, [00:56:00] who, uh, is a co-founder of a payment processing company. Um, and you know, I, I remember having a conversation with him and he was talking about going into like little merchant shops and them talking about, you know, the product that he built and, and he literally teared up because he was so moved by the impact that he had on their ability to accept payments and, and build a better life for their families.

I mean, it, you know, uh, we really can achieve great things from this place of service. Um, and, and so, you know, I think it’s really is getting clear on who you wanna serve, right? How you’re gonna do it, and then, and then going all in. And so, you know, I, and. Being all in from a place of devotion instead of a place of discipline, right?

Like discipline kind of implies I’m doing something I don’t wanna do in service of, of creating this outcome. Devotion is, I care so [00:57:00] much about this cause that I’m attached to that I wake up and do the thing and it feels light, it feels, you know, in alignment with my soul and my internal experience is matching my external experience.

Like that’s true wealth to me.

[00:57:12] Nathan: Yeah, I love that. Okay. What about this feeling of it all going away? I think there’s so many people who are ambitious, they’re driving towards something, they’re scrappy, they have nothing to lose and all of that. And then one day they wake up and they go, oh, I have a, a lot to lose.

And they move into a preservation mode in an unhealthy way. Or, or maybe there’s like wrestling with that of like, okay, what if I were to lose it all? What does that mean? Uh, how did you approach that personally, and then how do you coach clients on addressing that?

[00:57:47] Mike: Yeah, so I think for every problem there is an a, a mechanical fix and an emotional fix.

[00:57:52] Nathan: Okay?

[00:57:52] Mike: Right. So the mechanical fix is how do I build systems to make sure that never happens? Mm-hmm. And then, uh, the emotional thing is even if [00:58:00] I have those systems in place, that feeling might not go away. Right? Okay. What, what’s driving that right? Was there, was there scarcity in my home growing up, right?

Mm-hmm. Like, was there instability caused by a lack of money if you don’t go back and heal those things at the root cause, right. Either through. Trauma, work, coaching, you know, therapy. There’s, there’s all kinds of modalities that we can use to go do, you know, heal those patterns that were caused as a child.

I think you need a combination of both, right? But the reality is, is that you can build wealth systems that ensure that it never goes away.

[00:58:33] Nathan: Let’s touch on a couple of those, like what are three or four of those things that you’re like, look, this is what I would put in place.

[00:58:38] Mike: So for me, when it comes to building and preserving wealth, there, there are three levels of financial freedom, right?

With freedom being the, the goal, of course. So the first one is. Level one financial freedom is safety. That’s 12 months of living expenses in a liquid asset that, that I can access within 24 hours.

[00:58:57] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:58:57] Mike: Right. That’s gonna take that [00:59:00] existential dread of not being able to pay the bills. Uh, and, and, you know, buy a little bit of that psychological safety.

The next step is five to seven years of, uh, liquidity. So, so enough money to cover the bills for five years, like four people who have money making as a skill. Right. It is almost inconceivable to go five years without ever making another dollar.

[00:59:26] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:59:26] Mike: Right. Like that should buy a tremendous amount of psychological safety.

And here’s why. I, I always preach liquidity. Right. You know, at my lowest, I was still a multimillionaire on paper, but I couldn’t access any of my money. Right. Right. And so, uh, literally it did mean no good to be a multimillionaire because I, you know, I couldn’t even pay my tax. I had to borrow money from my fiance at the time to pay my tax bill.

You know, being a multimillionaire wasn’t doing anything for me. Right. Right. So, so, uh, you know, at, at that point you can [01:00:00] start in investing in more liquid and semi-liquid assets like real estate, but if all of your money is tied up in things that you can’t access, like you are not rich. Right. And you are not free at that point.

Mm-hmm. And then the highest level of financial freedom is what I call escape velocity. And this is when you have 33, uh, times your annual expenses, uh, in, uh, assets that generate enough income to pay for your lifestyle for the rest of your life without ever dragging down the principle. Okay. So that’s a pretty lofty goal.

Like if you, so, you know, if you spend, um, 30 KA month, that, that looks like about $12 million.

[01:00:36] Nathan: Okay.

[01:00:37] Mike: Right. So, so that is still a, a significant amount of money. That’s only if number one, you don’t wanna draw down on the principle, right? You wanna die with this perpetual money machine. And then two, if you’re not earning any more money, right?

But if you continue to earn, let’s say I earn $10,000, right there, there’s another rule called the rule of 300. So for every [01:01:00] dollar that you continue to earn, you can reduce your protective reserve by $300, right? So now if I’m earning, if I, maybe I want to just, uh, I wanna go be a teacher, I wanna make five grand a month, right?

Like I can reduce my protective reserve by 1.5 million. And so I need less if I’m gonna continue earning in some way, if that makes sense.

[01:01:20] Nathan: Yep, it does. Okay. So those are things to do to touch on, on the. The logical side of your brain.

[01:01:27] Mike: Yeah.

[01:01:27] Nathan: Right. And the, and the practical, like this is the physics of the economy and, and all of that.

So you’re getting to those, those assets and then you can on the logical side say like, okay, I do actually have this squared away.

[01:01:38] Mike: Yeah.

[01:01:38] Nathan: And then we really move into the emotional side and all of that.

[01:01:43] Mike: Yeah. And so a tremendous amount of the work that I do is focused on our relationship to money and understanding this psychology and, and, uh, you know, emotional piece that we’re touching on.

It almost always goes back to childhood, right? Mm-hmm. Or other traumatic experiences. Maybe you experienced a [01:02:00] bankruptcy in your early adulthood. Like there, there are experiences that can influence this thing. And, uh, you know, number one, it starts with forgiveness.

[01:02:08] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[01:02:09] Mike: Right? Um, you know, often I’ll have people meditate on the worst money mistake that they ever made and, and go through a, a forgiveness exercise.

Yeah. Right. And, and it’s just releasing these old patterns that start to become limitations, start to keep us trapped in this feeling of never enough, you know? And typically, again, it, it’s, it’s always coming back to the present moment, right? If, if I am feeling like, if I objectively have my, my money bases covered, but I’m feeling like it’s not enough, something in my subconscious is hijacking me from the present moment.

You know, again, typically it’s, it’s something that occurred in a past version of ourselves that’s an open loop that just keeps running. It’s a protective part that showing up and, and putting on the alarm bells when it, it’s [01:03:00] actually not matching up with reality. Mm-hmm. So where am I having this outsized reaction, and then how do I interrupt that process and come back to presence?

Mm-hmm.

[01:03:09] Nathan: I like that. Okay. As we wrap up, I want to go one very practical and then, uh, maybe more theoretical, existential, all of that. Um, on the practical side, how do you spend money now in ways that has the highest leverage, maybe the highest impact, right? Where you’re like, oh, these are the things that I just love spending money on, as an example for listeners where they’re going to, uh, be like, oh, maybe I would follow that or do my own version of it.

[01:03:39] Mike: Yeah. Well, here’s the beauty. Uh, I am constantly updating, right? Uh, I, I wanna live life at the, the bleeding edges, right? Like, I don’t just wanna be a monk that goes and, and renounces worldly possessions and, and meditates in a cave for the rest of my life, right? Right. Like, I want, I want to experience all of it.

And so, uh, number one, again, my advice [01:04:00] is buy the ticket and take the ride. Like, like if you think it might make you happy, go check it out. See if it does. Most things in life are not one way. Decisions, right? Mo there’s, there are very few doors that, uh, close and lock behind us, right? So if you don’t love where you live, maybe try moving to that new city.

Guess what? If you don’t like it, you can move back.

[01:04:20] Nathan: Right? Or if you’re willing to spend the money, you can keep your old house. Like you don’t even have to, you can try it on.

[01:04:25] Mike: Yeah. So, uh, so, so for me it’s, it’s, you know, being experimental and then experiential. And like I said earlier, material things can play into an ex experiences.

Right. But like for me, my annual non-negotiable is my heli skiing trip. Uh, it’s, it’s one of my favorite things I do that goes in the calendar. First heli skiing is, is not cheap, but, uh, it is

[01:04:50] Nathan: worth every penny

[01:04:51] Mike: worth every penny, right? Um, but I, I also did a, a silent retreat this year, a silent meditation retreat and, uh, you [01:05:00] know, again, serving on, on the board of, uh, the Wisdom Dojo, uh, you know, serving the veteran community.

So donating to, uh, you know, charitable causes, both of those things, one is really selfish. I love heli skiing. That’s, that’s totally just serving me.

[01:05:14] Nathan: Yeah.

[01:05:15] Mike: The other thing is in service to others, right? Mm-hmm. Both of those things bring me a tremendous amount of joy, right? So it’s spreading across all the different buckets and, and again, just continually asking the question.

Right. What happens is, I think that we sort of get stuck in, I’m the supercar guy.

[01:05:33] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[01:05:34] Mike: I love McLaren’s and, and Lamborghinis. So now I have these two things in my garage that are just collecting dust and I’m not the guy that loves those things anymore, but it’s too costly to my identity to update.

Right. So I’m just gonna keep ’em around. Right. I want to, I want to constantly be in the practice of updating my identity and letting go of the things that aren’t serving me. So, so number one, just buy the ticket. Take the ride, buy the thing. You know, [01:06:00] again, as long as you’re taking care of future self Yes.

Like, not maxing out credit cards. Right. Assuming you have the money, buy the thing, and then just monitoring like, does this bring me joy the way I thought it would? If yes, keep going.

[01:06:10] Nathan: Mm-hmm. I like that there’s some of these little things that I’ve seen people do over time. Uh, I’ll give two examples. For me, it’s easier to spend the money on the big flashy experience.

So like, I love sailing.

[01:06:23] Mike: Yeah.

[01:06:24] Nathan: And so, uh, you know, to go do a trip like that or something and, you know, uh, chartering a boat might cost 10 or $15,000 for a week. And, but it’s like this community experience. You can bring your friends together. I know you’ve done that. Um, but I like, might struggle with some of the small things like that.

Feel like I’m being high maintenance, like, uh, ramit safety for example. Yeah. Will, uh, when he’s traveling, he will make sure that his groceries so that he can match the exact diet he wants to eat as easy as possible, are delivered to his hotel room, waiting for him, you know, his favorite [01:07:00] yogurt. All of this.

And I’m like, on one hand I’m like, dude, you’re so high. Oh no. That actually would be like a, a great use of not very much money.

[01:07:08] Mike: Yeah.

[01:07:08] Nathan: Or another example, um, I saw this when, uh, you and Dan and your spouses went to, went on a sailing trip. Which I’ve done that, uh, similar sailing trips many times. Um, but I thought the ultimate pro move was that you all had a workout set on the boat of like a full set of weights and all of that.

And I was like, oh, that’s what the sailing trip was missing. But it would feel ridiculous to me before I like was working on changing this of like, oh, if you spend a a thousand dollars or whatever it is to get a workout set added, you know, and that makes the, uh, you know, to get a set of weights added and that makes the experience that much better then like totally do it.

[01:07:46] Mike: Yeah.

[01:07:47] Nathan: But it’s some of those things that are interesting to watch other people do and then go, oh, that would actually bring me joy and happiness. Like, yes, I wanna do that.

[01:07:55] Mike: Yeah. So I got, I got two in this category. One is, uh, a house manager. I think [01:08:00] this is the for, for entrepreneur, especially entrepreneurial couples.

I think this is the highest leverage expense that you could possibly have. And it’s not an expense, it’s an investment. So, uh, you know, I’ve had a house manager, uh, since 2016, uh, but. You know, and, and we outsource everything from paying bills to laundry, to grocery shopping, to chefing, um, you know, and, and our house manager job description, which w we can put a link in the show notes saying, uh, which, you know, is I wanna spend more present time with my kids.

[01:08:32] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[01:08:33] Mike: Right? And doing household chores is not present time with my kids. We might be in the same room, but I’m not able to, to be there and, and really speak to them, you know, in the way that I want to. So, I, I think a house manager is the best, uh, use. And I, I’ve probably helped over a hundred people hire house managers at this point.

The other thing, to your point, uh, about the hotel room, I had a friend recently who said, man, if I was a billionaire, I would wear a new pair of socks every day. [01:09:00] Right. I was like, well, how much do your socks cost? And he said, uh, it’s like $8 for four pairs. I said, cool. So you know, to get

[01:09:09] Nathan: $700 a year or something,

[01:09:10] Mike: $700 a year, you could wear new socks every single day of your life.

And he is like, oh, but you know, that would feel really wasteful. And I was like, well, what if you took the used socks and donated in the homeless shelter? Right? Like, now this guy’s living like a billionaire, his version of how a billionaire, his

[01:09:25] Nathan: a billionaire

[01:09:26] Mike: for $700 a year and he’s doing something that makes him feel really good by helping other people out with new socks, right?

So there, there are a lot of things that can, you can spend on that don’t cost a lot of money that bring an outsize amount of joy.

[01:09:38] Nathan: Yeah. I love, I love those examples. Something that you said early on, you were talking about this, this journey of selling your company and then you ended up back in this place of trying to.

Do the next thing, you know, maybe prove that you could build a second company. I don’t know who we’re proving this to, but we’re all trying to prove some version

[01:09:59] Mike: now. The, the nebulous [01:10:00] thing.

[01:10:00] Nathan: Yeah. And, and realizing that, you know, you’d gone through all of that and were miserable losing tons of money in all of that.

And so in exiting that scenario, losing money, closing that chapter, you got to peace. And so I’m, I’m, I’m very curious, like how do you quantify the value of that piece for someone who is listening and they’re very numbers focused or academic or all of that, like just speaks to what it meant to go from that drowning feeling into peace.

[01:10:31] Mike: Yeah. I mean, you know, the way I think about it is you can always get more money.

[01:10:35] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[01:10:35] Mike: But you can’t ever get more time, right? Yeah. Time is our only non-renewable resource. And, uh, for me being on this. Never ending cycle of more. I mean, it, it, it truly cost me everything. I mean, it was this, this was an experience that, that brought me, you know, to my knees.

Um, like I said, I mean, I, I remember a day when I woke [01:11:00] up and I was like, I, I can’t get out of bed today.

[01:11:01] Nathan: Yeah.

[01:11:02] Mike: Like, I don’t want to face the day there’s, it’s too much. Like, I know what’s coming and I’m out and, you know, uh, credit to my wife, like a, a really good wife would’ve said like, Hey buddy, you got this.

Like, get up and, and, and get after it. My wife said, stay in bed. You run the, I’ll run the company today. Right. And like, just being held by another person, like being, being able to have that relationship, right. Like that’s wealth. Mm-hmm. Right. Like having someone that has my back at all costs. And so, you know, now, um, I look back at that period of my life, it’s truly some of the greatest gifts.

Like I, I. Um, I lost the arrogance of someone who’d never lost before.

[01:11:45] Nathan: Hmm.

[01:11:46] Mike: Right. I let go of the pieces of my identity that were no longer serving me. I, um, I let go of externalizing my self-worth. So I lost money, but I also [01:12:00] lost a lot of parts of my, uh, of my self that, that weren’t serving me anymore. And so, you know, if you’re in a dark place, like if you feel like the walls are closing in, if you’re struggling, just know that your ego is a small price to pay for the person that you’re becoming on the other side.

[01:12:20] Nathan: I love that. That’s beautiful. All right. Where should people go to buy the book? Follow your work and check out everything that you’re doing?

[01:12:28] Mike: Well definitely, uh, sign up for my newsletters, hosted on an amazing platform, uh, called Cat, uh, at, at be rich now.com. Sign up for the newsletter and, uh, and buy the book.

Um, there, uh, follow me on X or Instagram. I’m sure you can put those, uh, m brown.co on Instagram, m Brown, uh, I, I maybe need to buy that handle with the new program. Uh, and, and yeah, I’m active on both of those and, uh, I, I, I really do pour my heart and soul into writing the newsletters. One of my favorite [01:13:00] things I do every week.

[01:13:00] Nathan: Yep. And the passion comes through, so people should definitely subscribe. Be rich now.com and thanks so much for coming on.

[01:13:06] Mike: Thanks, Nathan.

[01:13:07] Nathan: If you enjoyed this episode, go to YouTube and search the Nathan Barry Show. Then hit subscribe and make sure to like the video and drop a comment. I’d love to hear what some of your favorite parts of the video were, and also just who else do you think we should have on the show.

Thank you so much for listening.

[00:00:00] Nathan: Michael built a productivity app called NAS B, and now the business is stuck at $1 million per year. So he’s flown here from Europe to brainstorm how we can break through that ceiling. The goal is to scale NAS B to 5 million. Expansion is a very important metric for

[00:00:15] Michael: Yes

[00:00:15] Nathan: business.

[00:00:16] Michael: One big roadblock that I have encountered throughout the years is that I could fire myself from all of the roles in the company, except for the marketing role.

[00:00:25] Nathan: We’ve got plenty of things to cover here. We break out brand team, customers, and product. We put everything on the board so we can see it and identify what’s working and what’s not. One way to get attention is direct sales. I love this method because it is entirely within my control. The problem here with direct sales in this business is this right

[00:00:43] Michael: here.

Yeah, exactly. It’s

[00:00:44] Nathan: so if your company’s revenue has plateaued, you are really gonna benefit from going through this diagnostic process. And seeing how to run the same audit on your own business. Have you heard this idea of max MRR? No. Like, I cannot stress how important it is. So [00:01:00] what you need is, you need, I got it.

So cool. That was fun. So Michael, tell me about NAS B.

[00:01:07] Michael: Yeah, so, um, it all started because I am not a very well organized person, and my wife is, I’m not, and I knew that I had, you know, in order to be successful, I had to figure it out to be organized.

[00:01:18] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:01:19] Michael: And especially I was a good consultant, but I was starting to, you know, not make deadlines like really, you know, uh, not deliver on time.

Mm-hmm. So, uh, I read this book by David Allen getting things done, and I was, uh, and the book is great. The, the advice is great, but it was very like, you know, old school right on the p piece of paper, like all that stuff. And I was like, there must be a digital way for this.

[00:01:40] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:01:40] Michael: So, um, so this is how it started.

I started, you know, um. Writing my own tool. Oh, actually over the weekend I built a first version of NSBE just for myself.

[00:01:49] Nathan: Are you’re a programmer by trade?

[00:01:51] Michael: Yeah. No. Um, yeah, kind of. I’m a geek.

[00:01:54] Nathan: Okay.

[00:01:54] Michael: So I studied business, but I was in the free time I was programming.

[00:01:58] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:01:58] Michael: And that’s why, so I [00:02:00] I, I, it was fun for me always.

It’s like Lego bricks, you know? Yeah. It’s like building something. I’m a builder. So in that sense, I built very quickly a prototype of this, and then I started using it daily, and I was like, yeah, this is good. Um, for example, I stole this idea from Gmail that when there is, like, when you have many projects, when you have many tasks with a star, you can make the ones that are, you know, that are important.

Yeah. So this is, was, this was my, my way of doing priorities and, and next actions from getting things done to, to my app. And when I started Nas b, when I launched it to the world. Like, there were crickets in the beginning, but then, uh, I was involved in some, uh, you know, GTD uh, discussion groups. Mm-hmm. And then there was actually a question like, do, which tool do you use for getting things done?

I was like, yeah. So I built this thing and can you give it a try? And one of the people who read this thread was a famous, then famous blogger from ZD Net, and he just wrote a whole article about nasby on zd net.

[00:02:54] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:02:54] Michael: And it just blew up.

[00:02:56] Nathan: Oh, wow.

[00:02:56] Michael: Uh, so it was, uh, like, and I was this guy from [00:03:00] Warsaw, Poland in an apartment, you know, doing that.

So, completely unknown in the States, but I built a version of Nasby, the first version in English. So this is how it started, basically.

[00:03:10] Nathan: Okay. And so how long did it take from launching the first version to reaching a million in annual recurring revenue?

[00:03:16] Michael: Okay, so it, it, it was a few years. Mm-hmm. So in the first year, in the first year, I managed to get to $4,000 in monthly recurring revenue.

So it was still my side hustle

[00:03:30] Nathan: mm-hmm.

[00:03:30] Michael: The first year. But then when I reached 4,000, I was like, uh, I’m not making 4,000 on my, you know, consulting job. So actually I’m making more on nos B and uh, I preferred to work on nos B. So, uh, so after New Year’s Eve of 2000, 7,008, when, when I crossed the, the 4,000, uh, monthly recurring revenue, I decided, yeah, I’m gonna just drop the customers and just focus on, not be full-time.

And then three, four months later, I hired my first, uh, programmer because then I realized I [00:04:00] was good enough programmer to start it, but I’m a crappy programmer to continue. Right. Developing it.

[00:04:05] Nathan: Yep. That makes sense. Okay. And so what year was that, that you, 2008. 2008

[00:04:09] Michael: when I, you know, moved full-time.

[00:04:10] Nathan: Okay.

That makes sense. Yeah. Yeah. And then what was the journey from full-time to a million a RR?

[00:04:16] Michael: Yeah, so, um, it was like, um. Uh, so, uh, the first three years we, we got, uh, I remember, I remember this ceiling. We couldn’t, I couldn’t break $20,000 of monthly recurring revenue. Yeah. I was like, I was like, 18, 17. I was like, come on man.

So it was, it was that. And then, um, we launched an iPhone app, um, uh, with, in collaboration with an, uh, a different company. And by accident our co our, uh, application in 2010, 2011 blew up in Japan.

[00:04:48] Nathan: Okay,

[00:04:48] Michael: because we had the iPad app and the, because iPad launched in 2010. Mm-hmm. And just right after launch we had an iPad app for nsbe.

So we were one of the few, you know, to do apps having, uh, an [00:05:00] iPad app. And, uh, somebody wrote an article in Japan and then suddenly it blew up in Japan. And when it blew up in Japan, it went from 20,000. Uh, monthly recurring revenue, uh, to 60,000 monetary recurring revenue.

[00:05:11] Nathan: Wow.

[00:05:12] Michael: It was just,

[00:05:12] Nathan: was And was that global growth or was that really concentrated just in Japan?

[00:05:16] Michael: I mean, it was global growth, but more, but like half of that was in Japan.

[00:05:20] Nathan: Okay.

[00:05:20] Michael: Wow. So, and, and actually I went to Japan to promote Nas b It was the first time ever I flew to Japan. Uh, first time I hired a PR consultant person ’cause I didn’t, and I didn’t speak any Japanese. Um, so we had a whole promotion there in Japan and everything.

Uh, so, and

[00:05:35] Nathan: that worked to drive more growth?

[00:05:36] Michael: Yes.

[00:05:37] Nathan: Okay.

[00:05:37] Michael: Yeah, I mean it, at, at least it sustained the growth that, that, that showed up there. So, and then this guy who wrote the initial, you know, article about Nasby back then, he actually wrote a whole, you know, kind of, um, uh, manual book for NSBE in Japanese.

So, so there was a book about NS B in Japanese and, um. And this is, this is basically where that, [00:06:00] that catapulted us to like 50, 60,000, uh, monthly recurring revenue. And then after that, uh, also in the states, there were more customers. And, um, so we basically, like two years later, like we already had one thou 100,000, you know, monthly recurring revenue.

[00:06:15] Nathan: And when did you hit that peak?

[00:06:17] Michael: So the, the peak that we hit was the, the, the, you know, the, um, 1.5, 1.6 million

[00:06:23] Nathan: a RI,

[00:06:24] Michael: and it was like around 2000, uh, so 2016, 2018. Okay. So that was the, that were the years where we reached the peak. But also there was the moment where I observed that, um. The customers who loved our app kept, he kept buying and they kept buying the, you know, the annual, uh, subscriptions.

Uh, we also, also always had that pricing that, uh, the annual subscription was 20% cheaper than the monthly and was enough for people to prefer to buy annual. And of course, for us it was better because there was a commitment to, to use our tool. So, um, we would all [00:07:00] also, every now and then do like a promo of like, you know, if you buy for a year, we give you three additional months, or something like that.

So this was also weird because then sometimes they would renew, like, you know, 15 months later. So we had like renewals at very different stages, um, but did work for us. But I realized, um, two things. First, that, um, uh, there are also like increasingly ma many more like 2016, 2018, many more tools that, uh, are just free to do apps that basically do what we do.

Uh, but uh. The collaboration features, like, of getting things done together is much more powerful. This, this was my, our discovery as a team that we actually have more fun, like by collaborating on tasks. We call it task-based communication. So we basically, you know, each task has a common thread, so this way we comment on the task.

So it’s much more productive, much more clean. You don’t chat, you know, in Slack or somewhere else. The, the, the, the [00:08:00] communication is about the task, you know, that has to be done and the clear delegation and all that stuff. And then we realized we have to, you know, uh, develop more of these tools of, of, of, to make sure that the collaboration works better.

And, um, yeah. And then basically we had this wild idea, which, you know, which was a mistake, uh, to rebuild our tool from scratch. Uh. You know, putting, putting the comments and the, the, the, the collaboration like as, as the, the core feature, uh, of our app. So getting things done together.

[00:08:31] Nathan: Okay. And so then you rebuilt that in 2020?

[00:08:34] Michael: Yes. We, and then we launched in 2020. And much towards disappointment, I think it didn’t, you know, it didn’t hit off quickly. Right. Uh, while we did neglect our, you know, NSBE classic customers who are using the classic app, uh, ’cause we were not developing it, you know, at, at similar, similar pace. So even though.

It’s not like people demanded lots of features. It was just like, kind of neglect, you know? Yeah. Not, not, not.

[00:08:57] Nathan: So what, is everyone on the [00:09:00] new version of Nas B now, or

[00:09:01] Michael: no? No, no, no. We still have

[00:09:02] Nathan: What’s the split now between classic and

[00:09:04] Michael: So, so now it’s, uh, now the, the number of, uh, customers, it’s more or less, um, it’s 60 40%.

So 60% is an only old one, and 40% on is on the new one.

[00:09:15] Nathan: Okay.

[00:09:16] Michael: And, uh, but the, the, the revenue and the, the growth is on the new one.

[00:09:21] Nathan: Okay. That makes sense. All right. There’s so much that I wanna dive into in this business. Yeah. Before we jump up on the board, what, what would success look like for this business?

You’re at a million a r.

[00:09:30] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[00:09:30] Nathan: Um, you’ve been stuck there for a while.

[00:09:33] Michael: Yes.

[00:09:33] Nathan: Like, what, what is your goal to get to?

[00:09:35] Michael: So I am. Mission driven just like you guys. Uh, so I’m this ridiculous guy that when somebody, when I see somebody who’s disorganized, I’m gonna tell ’em, just lose, use nasbe. Like, use my app. You know, I’m, I feel like this car salesman, you know, like I, I want to give them my app.

Uh, uh, so for me, the 1 million, uh, uh, annual revenue rate also symbolizes that we’re [00:10:00] not reaching the people.

[00:10:01] Nathan: Right.

[00:10:01] Michael: We were supposed to reach. ’cause uh, yeah, money’s great and all, but, uh, I would like to have just a bigger impact because I, I know for a fact that, because the thing is, as you will see from the metrics, like when once people get the hang of our app, they love it.

[00:10:15] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:10:16] Michael: But how do we show it to them? How do we onboard them? Right? How do we convince that their team should go all in on our app? That’s the, the main issue, I would say. Uh, so for me, yeah, I would love to have, you know, like, um. In the next few years, get to 5 million. Uh,

[00:10:32] Nathan: okay.

[00:10:33] Michael: That’s your goal. And then hopefully 10 million at some point.

But, uh, 5 million would be great.

[00:10:36] Nathan: And then I think one other piece of context that’s really important is just what’s happening in the competitive landscape. Yes. You touched on it. You have a lot of products now Yeah. That are mainstream. Um, what is Asana? Trello.

[00:10:49] Michael: Monday. Monday.

[00:10:50] Nathan: Click up,

[00:10:51] Michael: click up. Like all of these guys.

Yeah. And the thing is, this also caused, uh, kind of an identity crisis for us. Like, we were like, [00:11:00] should we continue doing it? Like, right. They’re great tools. These guys like, they’re fantastic tools. Like why do we bother, you know, to develop our tool? Um,

[00:11:09] Nathan: it’s a good question. Why?

[00:11:10] Michael: Yeah, exactly. And, and we were, because we were just thinking maybe we are the only customer of our, of ours.

Like we, maybe we are the ones that we’re building it only for ourselves and we are selfish and you know, we should just, you know, go home. Um. But then our customers came back, uh, very often, like, uh, ’cause I thought, you know, uh, if people know about Asana, they’re not gonna, they’re not gonna even give us a try.

But then our customers came, came and they were like, yeah, no, we, we did try Clickup, we did try, uh, Asana. They’re just bloated. We don’t want bloat. We want, like, because in our, in NSBE tasks is the main thing. Like there you organized projects in, uh, um, tasks into projects. You tag tasks and tasks have comments and tasks is the main thing In Asana.

Task is one of the features,

[00:11:55] Nathan: right?

[00:11:56] Michael: It’s like, it’s one of the things, uh, and that’s why [00:12:00] our customers told us like, no, no, no, keep going. What you’re doing is great. Like, and they voted with dollars. Like the still, I would argue that 1 million annual revenue rate, it’s still not bad. It, and it shows that people actually are willing to pay money, right.

For your software. Just that, um. And we needed this, we needed this reinforcement, we needed that. We needed to know that, okay, so we’re not building this just for fun for ourselves. Mm-hmm. Like, there are, there are people who have tried different things and came back to us. Like the, the ground was the, the grass was greener on the other side.

[00:12:32] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:12:33] Michael: But it’s not. Okay. So, so this kind of helped us, uh, when we were in this like, low point at some point, like three few years ago, uh, it, it helped us, uh, you know, reinvigorate and now we have a roadmap. We, uh, with some additional cool features, we’re gonna incorporate some AI into nos and stuff. So we have ideas how to make our simple tool like even more powerful, but still simple in that sense.

[00:12:57] Nathan: Sounds good. Well, you’re really passionate about the product. Yes. And I would love [00:13:00] to help you bring it to more people. Yeah. So let’s jump up on the board and just really diagnose and dig in.

[00:13:04] Michael: Let’s do it.

[00:13:05] Nathan: All right. So the goal, we’ll just start with that. Yes. The goal is to scale

[00:13:11] Michael: the five.

[00:13:14] Nathan: I like it. Okay.

So let’s look at where we’re at now. Mm-hmm. And kind of break down a few of these things. There’s two groups that I wanna focus on.

[00:13:23] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[00:13:23] Nathan: Um, there’s really the metrics of the business and then sort of the core building blocks.

[00:13:29] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[00:13:30] Nathan: So from a metrics perspective, we just write some of these down. Um, let’s see.

I guess the revenue growth is gonna come from, uh, two things. Really. Awareness.

[00:13:39] Michael: Yes.

[00:13:40] Nathan: And then activation.

[00:13:42] Michael: Yeah.

[00:13:43] Nathan: Then if we were to keep breaking this down from activation, um, there’s really expansion.

[00:13:49] Michael: Yeah.

[00:13:50] Nathan: Uh, expansion, uh, retention.

[00:13:54] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[00:13:55] Nathan: Return. Same thing. [00:14:00] Uh, retention and then referral.

[00:14:03] Michael: Yeah.

[00:14:03] Nathan: Would be the last one.

[00:14:04] Michael: Yes. Yes. This was also our bread and butter in the very beginning. Like, because the GTD enthusiasts, like we’re referring NSBE and others to NSBE very easily.

[00:14:13] Nathan: Okay.

[00:14:13] Michael: Now referrals are not that easy.

[00:14:15] Nathan: So that’s, uh, that’s good to look into. There’s other ways you could phrase this of like, obviously we don’t have, uh, contraction and reactivation and, and some things in here, but as, as some core buckets.

That’s good.

[00:14:26] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[00:14:27] Nathan: And then within the team Yeah. Or within the, the building blocks of the business.

[00:14:30] Michael: Yeah.

[00:14:30] Nathan: If, if were to write these down, I’ll switch to another

[00:14:33] Michael: mm-hmm.

[00:14:33] Nathan: Another marker. Um, we have, I think there’s brand.

[00:14:42] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[00:14:43] Nathan: The team itself.

[00:14:44] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[00:14:46] Nathan: There’s the product.

[00:14:47] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[00:14:49] Nathan: And then customers almost bits.

[00:14:51] Michael: Yeah.

[00:14:52] Nathan: Okay. So I wanna start in, let’s start down here. So this is the building blocks of the business. [00:15:00] Yeah. So when we look at brand mm-hmm. There’s some of these businesses that I come across. That you just look at them and you’re like, this isn’t going anywhere.

[00:15:08] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[00:15:09] Nathan: It’s almost like you can sense that the founder either doesn’t have drive skill or taste mm-hmm.

Some version of that.

[00:15:15] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[00:15:16] Nathan: And so they’re like, this looks amazing. Or like, I’m so proud to bring this to market and you’re, and everyone else is like, either this is wrong in some way, or, I don’t know what’s wrong, but mm-hmm. It’s not gonna scale. I look at the brand that you have, so like the name?

[00:15:29] Michael: Yeah.

[00:15:30] Nathan: That’s one that I think is important. If we look at these components.

[00:15:34] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[00:15:34] Nathan: I think the name Nas B can work just fine.

[00:15:37] Michael: My wife, she’s an, uh, IP lawyer,

[00:15:40] Nathan: Uhhuh,

[00:15:40] Michael: and she says it’s great trademark because it doesn’t mean anything. Like, ’cause it’s, ’cause it’s the whole history of NAS B was like to, to be naturally organized be no or nos B.

And then, and I just bought it because it was a cool name, like with a Z in the middle and it was.com. So,

[00:15:55] Nathan: so I, um, appreciate that the trademark law aspect [00:16:00] is important to all that. I don’t really care about it

[00:16:02] Michael: and that’s why I, but my, my wife does so

[00:16:04] Nathan: Yes.

[00:16:04] Michael: And I have to by box.

[00:16:06] Nathan: Well, I mean, it’s a box you have to check.

[00:16:07] Michael: Yes.

[00:16:08] Nathan: Right. So when we rebranded from ConvertKit, which is very trademark

[00:16:12] Michael: Yes.

[00:16:12] Nathan: Lockdown to kit.

[00:16:13] Michael: Yeah.

[00:16:14] Nathan: Right. It’s, it is a much more difficult thing. We actually had to go and acquire a company to get a trademark for kit. Because we wouldn’t be able to

[00:16:21] Michael: Okay.

[00:16:21] Nathan: Uh, get it from scratch.

[00:16:22] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[00:16:23] Nathan: Right. So it’s really, it’s really important.

What I care more about is the feeling of the name.

[00:16:26] Michael: Okay.

[00:16:27] Nathan: You get some of these names that, that sound like default negative

[00:16:30] Michael: uhhuh

[00:16:31] Nathan: or like what emotion is it evoke? Mm-hmm. And so I think that Nas b as a name is, um, short spell enough. You have the.com and it doesn’t invoke any negative emotions. And so like, I’m like, name is good.

That’s not an issue. Uh, then if we go down, uh, I, I think that design is the next thing.

[00:16:51] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[00:16:53] Nathan: I don’t think that the design is that you all have. Is going to be the standout differentiator. [00:17:00]

[00:17:00] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[00:17:00] Nathan: If you take a product like linear, they’re all in on design. Mm-hmm. It is the most incredible thing. And people, whether it’s a little UI interaction or their marketing site.

Mm-hmm. So that’s what happens when you go like,

[00:17:11] Michael: yeah,

[00:17:12] Nathan: design is your differentiator. It, I don’t think it is for you, you all, but I don’t see it as a detractor as well.

[00:17:16] Michael: No. Uh,

[00:17:18] Nathan: and so I think that from a brand perspective on name on design, like

[00:17:21] Michael: you’re

[00:17:22] Nathan: good. Um, on the team side. Tell me about the team a little bit.

[00:17:26] Michael: Yeah. So, um, uh, so we had to contract a little bit the team mm-hmm. Because we were, uh, at some point we were like 25 people and now were 15.

[00:17:33] Nathan: Okay.

[00:17:34] Michael: Uh, so, uh, so we have a small team now. Um, one big roadblock that we, that I have encountered throughout the years is that, uh, I could fire myself from all of the roles in the company except for the marketing role.

[00:17:50] Nathan: So gimme a breakdown of what. Uh, what teams you have. Mm-hmm. Yes. And how many people are in each

[00:17:57] Michael: one? Okay. So, uh, so, uh, uh, [00:18:00] in customer support, we have four people. Okay? Let’s, uh, let’s start with that. Um, and then, um, uh, we have, uh, five, uh, six developers. Sorry, six developers.

[00:18:14] Nathan: Okay.

[00:18:15] Michael: We have a designer and a QA guy.

So of these two guys,

[00:18:20] Nathan: okay.

[00:18:20] Michael: Yeah. And then we,

so

[00:18:22] Nathan: 10, 12.

[00:18:23] Michael: Yeah. And then we have three marketing people.

[00:18:25] Nathan: Okay?

[00:18:25] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[00:18:26] Nathan: All right. That’s good context. Mm-hmm. Now, as we, we will dive more into this in a second, but as we go to product,

[00:18:32] Michael: yeah.

[00:18:32] Nathan: I wanna pause here actually. And let’s go to these metrics, right? Mm-hmm.

[00:18:35] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[00:18:36] Nathan: Because there’s things I noticed about your product that make me think it’s not the issue that we’re facing. Mm-hmm. But I wanna dive into the, into the metrics. Um, have you heard, um, this idea of max MRR?

[00:18:48] Michael: No.

[00:18:48] Nathan: Um, so it’s this. If you think about. Any business that flatlines

[00:18:53] Michael: mm-hmm.

[00:18:54] Nathan: Everyone thinks in terms of, um, growth curves, right?

Yeah. Like this is linear growth. This is exponential.

[00:18:59] Michael: [00:19:00] Yeah.

[00:19:00] Nathan: The most common growth curve that you’ll ever see is the S curve,

[00:19:04] Michael: is this curve. Mm-hmm.

[00:19:05] Nathan: Yeah. And so you think about, okay, what drives the S curve, and typically it’s that awareness

[00:19:11] Michael: mm-hmm.

[00:19:12] Nathan: Is a fixed dollar amount.

[00:19:13] Michael: Yeah.

[00:19:14] Nathan: You know, or your awareness activation combines to mm-hmm.

A new, uh, monthly revenue of a certain amount. Yeah. And so let’s say we’re bringing in a thousand dollars of new MRR every month, and that retention or churn is always a percentage.

[00:19:30] Michael: Yes.

[00:19:30] Nathan: And so at some point,

[00:19:32] Michael: uh, yeah.

[00:19:33] Nathan: Uh, your. Your percentage of the total

[00:19:37] Michael: Yeah.

[00:19:38] Nathan: Becomes greater than whatever you’re bringing in.

Yes. And your scur flattens.

[00:19:41] Michael: Yes.

[00:19:41] Nathan: And so this happens to a bunch of different, you know, happens pretty much every business.

[00:19:45] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[00:19:46] Nathan: And so you either have to keep driving the combined

[00:19:50] Michael: mm-hmm.

[00:19:50] Nathan: You know, the combined new

[00:19:52] Michael: mm-hmm.

[00:19:54] Nathan: Um, higher and higher

[00:19:56] Michael: Yes.

[00:19:57] Nathan: To deal with your retention percentage.

[00:19:59] Michael: Mm-hmm. [00:20:00]

[00:20:00] Nathan: Uh, and it’s, it’s a very hard thing to do.

If you don’t, if you can’t overcome that, then it flat lines.

[00:20:06] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[00:20:06] Nathan: So what has. Awareness like we are top of funnel. Yeah. New. How do you measure that? Is that new users, new revenue?

[00:20:14] Michael: Yeah. New. Yeah, new users. You’re very much right. That the, the, the, the awareness is kind of a fixed thing. ’cause like there were times when we had like many new users, for example, from the US because for example, Michael Hat was like, like a big user and he was recommending Nspi.

So when he was recommending like, you know, people around him, people in his uh, uh, sphere were also trying out Nas B.

[00:20:35] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:20:35] Michael: And so this helped at the moment, you know, like he stopped recommending, he was like doing on the other things. This dried out. Uh, you know, and, and for me, um. We, uh, for example, uh, we lost both this kind of awareness in Japan that we had.

And in the US uh, uh, at some point now we’re slowly getting back, but [00:21:00] for example, but we did get new awareness in Poland, like in our local market. Okay. So, uh, we do have a, like, ’cause our app is translated several languages, but we have the Polish version and, um, then me being a Polish entrepreneur managed to get, get us some, you know, some press.

Mm-hmm. So that helped us, uh, grow a little bit in Poland. But, uh, right now the problem with awareness and uh, is because. Again, I, I, I don’t wanna blame it on others, but because of the big competitors that have so much money on marketing, like they bid on our keywords, they bid on everywhere. Yeah. So it’s hard for us to break through.

[00:21:36] Nathan: Right. Uh, so that’s a good point. Based on the price of your product.

[00:21:39] Michael: Yeah.

[00:21:39] Nathan: Right. So if we, um, I guess on the product, you’re roughly

[00:21:44] Michael: mm-hmm.

[00:21:44] Nathan: Are you $8 per user?

[00:21:45] Michael: Yeah. Eight. $8 per month.

[00:21:46] Nathan: Okay. Mm-hmm. And that’s per user. And so yeah. You obviously have a big range within that.

[00:21:51] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[00:21:51] Nathan: But if I understand correctly, you haven’t been able to scale, like make ads profitable.

[00:21:56] Michael: Yeah.

[00:21:57] Nathan: And when I search for NAS b as a brand, I [00:22:00] think I saw five competitors that are all bidding on your brand keyword.

[00:22:03] Michael: Exactly.

[00:22:04] Nathan: Uh, and all of that. So awareness has been decreasing over time. Yes,

[00:22:08] Michael: yes.

[00:22:09] Nathan: And then what about activation? So when users

[00:22:13] Michael: mm-hmm.

[00:22:13] Nathan: When you get that account created, what is trial? The paid, uh, or onboarded?

How has that been trending over time?

[00:22:19] Michael: Something, what we did was helpful is because we were, uh, not doing it for a long time, but we started, like, uh, two years ago, we started to having, uh, offering demo meetings. So like to schedule a demo of our software. Okay. You know, even though it’s cheap, we still thought, you know, let’s, let’s do demos.

And Magda who runs demos, um, she’s, uh, uh, she is amazing and, um, but, but if you ask her, uh, her conversion rate is only 50%. So, okay. So, uh, so she’s really struggling with the fact that 50% of people who shop for a demo with her are not signing up.

[00:22:57] Nathan: Do you have that funnel instrumented where you [00:23:00] can see

[00:23:00] Michael: mm-hmm.

[00:23:01] Nathan: Um, you know, the, I guess if we were to map out the funnel

[00:23:06] Michael: Yeah.

[00:23:06] Nathan: You can see, uh, visit. To,

[00:23:11] Michael: to

[00:23:11] Nathan: demo account.

[00:23:12] Michael: I got account and to demo. Mm-hmm.

[00:23:14] Nathan: Uh, demo. And then, you know, you’d have paid mm-hmm. And then retained.

[00:23:20] Michael: Yeah. Retained. Mm-hmm.

[00:23:21] Nathan: Do you have, like, do you have a dashboard that shows you these stats?

[00:23:25] Michael: Not like this, no.

[00:23:27] Nathan: Okay. Any reason for it?

[00:23:28] Michael: No. We just like, uh, we started with the demos. It started working, so we didn’t, like we, we should, uh, so now we are trying to incorporate it more into a, like a kind of, kind of our flywheel. Yeah. Like, let’s say that that. You know, so we’re also promoting much more on social media, the mm-hmm.

The, the, the idea that you would get a demo with, uh, with Magda and also among, uh, you know, um, sending follow up emails to our customers that they haven’t scheduled demo. So like trying to, uh, uh, ’cause we see that once the demo is done

[00:23:57] Nathan: right,

[00:23:57] Michael: they, they, ’cause because what, what [00:24:00] what Magda does on the demo, she, um, not only just shows off our software, she actually asks questions about their business and she shows them exactly how they would do it.

And,

[00:24:09] Nathan: and does she live, does she work on marketing or in custom support? Yes. Marketing. Okay. Why don’t you write down, so I wanna keep going through all this. Yeah. But I wanna flag a few conversations for us to, to dig deeper in.

[00:24:17] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[00:24:18] Nathan: So why don’t you write down on this, uh, board, on this sheet, why don’t you write down metrics?

[00:24:22] Michael: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

[00:24:24] Nathan: Perfect. Okay. So we’ll come back to metrics.

[00:24:26] Michael: Yeah.

[00:24:27] Nathan: But the over, how do you measure overall awareness? Is that visits to the website?

[00:24:32] Michael: Yeah, visits to the website.

[00:24:33] Nathan: And what does that trend look like over time? Flat.

[00:24:37] Michael: Flat.

[00:24:38] Nathan: Okay.

[00:24:39] Michael: Yeah.

[00:24:39] Nathan: Um, how does it compare to 2018 when you were 2016, you were at your peaks?

[00:24:46] Michael: It’s, it’s much lower than it used to be.

[00:24:49] Nathan: Okay. So why don’t you write down, um, let’s just put traffic

[00:24:53] Michael: mm-hmm. On

[00:24:54] Nathan: your metrics.

[00:24:55] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[00:24:56] Nathan: And that’s another thing that we’ll come back to.

[00:24:57] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[00:24:59] Nathan: [00:25:00] Perfect. Alright. So as we keep working our way through this

[00:25:03] Michael: mm-hmm.

[00:25:03] Nathan: Uh, let’s go to expansion. Expansion is a very important metric for KISS business.

Um, we would be fighting a huge uphill battle if it wasn’t for expansion.

[00:25:12] Michael: Yeah.

[00:25:12] Nathan: So our expansion metric is, you know, as your audience grows, you know, if you started with 5,000 subscribers, you pay us, um, what is that? Not quite a hundred bucks a month, eight bucks a month, you know, and then later on you go, you know, that goes to a hundred and on from there, your expansion metric is number of seats, right?

Yes.

[00:25:31] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[00:25:32] Nathan: Um, how much of your. Net new MRR each month is driven by expansion.

[00:25:40] Michael: I don’t have it on from top of my head, but, um, it’s important. Like we, we see that, uh, they, so the, again, when, once they stick with the product, once they start using the product, they invite new users.

[00:25:52] Nathan: So maybe let’s look at it a different way.

Um, what percentage of your paying customers have more than one seat?

[00:25:59] Michael: Yeah. So, [00:26:00] uh, like 40, 40% of our customers have one seat.

[00:26:03] Nathan: Okay.

[00:26:03] Michael: And then, um, and then another 40%, two to two to three people. And our, uh, uh, nos bees freemium. So it’s like up to three people and three projects. It’s for free. Uh, but of course, if you want to have many projects, you have to have to pay the unlimited planner.

[00:26:21] Nathan: Okay. Uh, and 20% is greater than that?

[00:26:24] Michael: Yes.

[00:26:26] Nathan: Okay. And that’s based on Rev. Uh, ooh. This is based on number of customers,

[00:26:31] Michael: no number of paying customers. Yes.

[00:26:33] Nathan: Killer. The, the count of customers, not the revenue.

[00:26:35] Michael: Exactly, yes.

[00:26:35] Nathan: Because revenue would have fall,

[00:26:36] Michael: it’s, it’s the other way around. Yeah, exactly. Like exactly the 20% above that, that they make, you know,

[00:26:41] Nathan: 60%.

And, you know, so as if we come back to activation, you mentioned, uh, it being freemium.

[00:26:46] Michael: Yeah.

[00:26:46] Nathan: Do you, what are the free users doing? Are they coming in in high volumes? Are they, are they just a few of them? Are they upgrading to paid?

[00:26:54] Michael: Yeah, so usually they upgrade to paid whenever we, uh, launch like a [00:27:00] special offer promo for a year.

Okay. So for example, like, like, like the, like Friday offer, like when you pay for a year, you get extra months. So, um, so then they usually upgrade. If they don’t, they just, you know, ’cause uh, we have three projects. So they basically are, um, you know, uh, using our free plan, you know, like, like as much as they can, like the, the, the three projects.

And, uh, and you know, and for us it’s, it’s okay. Like, because, um, the thing is. Using our app is also a new habit. Mm-hmm. So I do appreciate, I, I do appreciate that, that they need more time to, to, to get used to NAS b so that they can really, you know, upgrade to premium. And, uh, very often the, the upgrades happens like, like a year later or two years later even.

[00:27:46] Nathan: Right.

[00:27:46] Michael: So it’s like a, it’s a late upgrade.

[00:27:49] Nathan: Okay. So if we were to, uh, make a, a very unscientific graph Yeah. Of free value mm-hmm. That you’re offering.

[00:27:58] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[00:27:59] Nathan: You know, there’s [00:28:00] the, you’re offering so little value on the free plan mm-hmm. That like why would someone ever use the product all the way to so much value on the free plan?

Yeah. Why would someone ever upgrade? There’s no reason to, to upgrade. Where are you in this spectrum based on your own perspective?

[00:28:15] Michael: Somewhere in the middle, I think.

[00:28:17] Nathan: Okay.

[00:28:17] Michael: Yeah.

[00:28:17] Nathan: Like pretty, so like people are getting good value outta the free plan, but they’re definitely hitting limits and upgrading properly.

[00:28:23] Michael: Yeah. Yeah. Okay. I would say, I would say something like

[00:28:24] Nathan: this, so we’re, we’re, we’re hanging out somewhere, right

[00:28:27] Michael: here, because we were giving five projects at some point.

[00:28:29] Nathan: Okay.

[00:28:29] Michael: And it was just, we, we, and we did measure that, that it was just, you know, giving too much.

[00:28:34] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:28:35] Michael: Um, uh, so, uh, uh, so we reduced it to three projects.

Uh, and then we, uh, so the difference also with the new nos B is, was the, was the also the switch that you can have up to three users because, um, I wanted to get, uh, for example, you know, uh, partners on board, like, so for example, business partners, they would sign up and then we have, they had to prove it, that once they sign up and start using nasbe together, [00:29:00] they do get it for, for their team.

Then

[00:29:04] Nathan: that’s another important point under the product. So you have what percentage of customers on the old version of nasbe?

[00:29:10] Michael: Uh, still, uh, 60%.

[00:29:12] Nathan: Okay. So the old is 60% new. Mm-hmm. 40%.

[00:29:16] Michael: Yeah.

[00:29:17] Nathan: And this has been out since 2020?

[00:29:20] Michael: Yes.

[00:29:21] Nathan: Okay. So there’s two things that I noticed in this. Mm-hmm. One, is there any way to sign up for the old nasby?

[00:29:28] Michael: No.

[00:29:28] Nathan: Anymore.

[00:29:28] Michael: Not anymore.

[00:29:29] Nathan: Okay. So you have, oh, this is interesting

[00:29:33] Michael: because we had it for, for, for quite a while and then we realized that it’s just confusing customers. So now when you wanna sign up for the classic nos B, we ask you to sign up for the new one. Mm-hmm. So, uh,

[00:29:44] Nathan: are people still trying to sign up for the classic one?

[00:29:46] Michael: Sometimes.

[00:29:47] Nathan: Okay.

[00:29:48] Michael: Sometimes,

[00:29:49] Nathan: um,

[00:29:50] Michael: and, but the, the thing is that, uh, the price is the same. Mm-hmm. So we did, uh, like two years ago, we did like a, uh, uh, pricing harmonization thing. Mm-hmm. So that the prices are the same [00:30:00] for both products. And then we also made it very easy to migrate. So also that, that if somebody is on the old one, they can migrate very easily to the new one.

[00:30:09] Nathan: Yeah. Okay. So the things that I’m noticing here

[00:30:12] Michael: mm-hmm.

[00:30:12] Nathan: Are first there’s very little incentive for legacy customers to migrate.

[00:30:17] Michael: Yeah.

[00:30:18] Nathan: And then the second thing is there’s not actually that many new customers coming in.

[00:30:21] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[00:30:22] Nathan: Because over five years Yeah. I think

[00:30:24] Michael: there’s only for

[00:30:24] Nathan: you would replace a meaningful percentage of that.

Exactly.

[00:30:27] Michael: I was hoping

[00:30:28] Nathan: for that. Yeah. So that brings me back to this awareness problem. Yeah. Right? Mm-hmm. Of we just don’t, people don’t know about this business.

[00:30:37] Michael: Yes. Yes. Right. That’s true.

[00:30:39] Nathan: Um, okay, so let’s keep moving down.

[00:30:41] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[00:30:42] Nathan: Under product, you know, retention is another factor.

[00:30:44] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[00:30:45] Nathan: What’s the, uh, monthly user revenue churn?

[00:30:48] Michael: Yeah, it’s, uh, it’s around around 3%, three and a half percent.

[00:30:51] Nathan: Okay. And what’s that done over time? Like, is it decreasing? Is it, is it flat?

[00:30:59] Michael: It used to be like [00:31:00] five, 6% percent, like, uh, two years ago. But, uh, we managed to, uh, to, to, to move it down to 3% over the last year. So it’s now it’s stable at this, at this level.

So

[00:31:11] Nathan: something that also happens in business is early on when you’re building a product.

[00:31:16] Michael: Yeah.

[00:31:16] Nathan: People,

[00:31:17] Michael: yes. I often,

[00:31:18] Nathan: well, they hear a revenue number or a, a churn number, like 6%, 9%. Mm-hmm. That sort of thing. And they point to this max MRR idea and they’re like, look, you are going to plateau. This business will never grow past it.

Like, you’re going to fail. You might as well quit and give up now. Yeah. People told me that with kit of like, sure, you know, sure you hit 10 KMRR, but based on that 10% monthly churn, you’ll never grow, grow past 20 KMRR.

[00:31:41] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[00:31:43] Nathan: And on one hand they were right.

[00:31:44] Michael: Yes.

[00:31:45] Nathan: Because the math formula does work out that way.

It is true. The thing that it doesn’t account for is that. Every month.

[00:31:52] Michael: Yeah.

[00:31:52] Nathan: The, you have like the customers that do stick around

[00:31:55] Michael: Yeah.

[00:31:56] Nathan: Tend to stick around for a very long time. Yes. Which is what you’re seeing here.

[00:31:59] Michael: [00:32:00] Yes.

[00:32:00] Nathan: And so the churn just naturally falls. Mm-hmm. I mean, kit did the same thing until, and, and we worked out it a lot, but like, to an extent, even just the, the physics of the customer base

[00:32:10] Michael: mm-hmm.

[00:32:10] Nathan: Resulted in a, uh, at least a sub 4%.

[00:32:14] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[00:32:14] Nathan: Monthly churn. And so that, uh, that’s solid. That tells me that the product is solid. Um, like that’s what I

[00:32:21] Michael: have a cool story here about the Yeah. Old customers. So, uh, two years ago we did the, um, the price harmonization to make sure that the prices are the same because the prices were different.

So it was also like no incentive to go to the new one and all that stuff, so, right. We made the prices exactly the same, but before we did that, we emailed our customers saying, Hey guys, we’re gonna increase the prices. So, uh, because you’re, you, you, you are great customers. You’ve been great customers for years.

If you extend your account. Today with the old price, like you’re gonna secure like the old price for like, until, you know, you finish. So, um, I have customers that have accounts until [00:33:00] 2040

[00:33:01] Nathan: that have that prepaid for that long.

[00:33:03] Michael: Yeah.

[00:33:06] Nathan: As we record this in 2025.

[00:33:08] Michael: Exactly, exactly. So I can say that I’m, I’ve been running nose before 20 years and I have customers for like 35.

[00:33:15] Nathan: So let’s dive in. That brings us to the customer aspect. Um, you have, uh, diehard fans.

[00:33:21] Michael: Yes.

[00:33:23] Nathan: Um,

[00:33:24] Michael: I’m gonna say true fans. We have fans. Yeah. Have we have true fans? Yes.

[00:33:27] Nathan: Do you have, uh, are there any identifying characteristics of your best customers?

[00:33:34] Michael: I don’t know. Like it’s, I think it’s, uh, you know. The productivity, you know, buffs, productivity, people like people who like, you know, getting things done.

Who, like the methodology? Yeah. Who like the, you know, who like productivity just like I do.

[00:33:49] Nathan: Okay. So, you know, you wrote initial wave a lot on Yeah. Um, GTD.

[00:33:54] Michael: Yes.

[00:33:55] Nathan: What is happening? If we were to do a Google Trends search right now? Yeah. For GTD?

[00:33:59] Michael: No, I [00:34:00] mean,

[00:34:00] Nathan: what, like, what is that market doing?

[00:34:03] Michael: No, the market is, uh, is is more or less gone now.

I mean, it’s, it’s, you know, it’s past its peak, you know. Mm-hmm. It’s, uh, um, I love David Allen and, uh, we are good friends. Mm-hmm. But, uh, but it’s like, you know, it’s, it’s, it’s no longer a, a, a trend and it’s not No, no. And the thing is, because the book is pretty like old fashioned mm-hmm. So people are no longer resonating, uh,

[00:34:25] Nathan: with that.

Yeah. It’s not selling the number of copies and all that. Exactly.

[00:34:26] Michael: Exactly.

[00:34:26] Nathan: Okay. There’s something here. So why don’t you write true fans mm-hmm. On this sheet. Mm-hmm. And we’ll dive into it more.

[00:34:31] Michael: Okay.

[00:34:32] Nathan: And that brings us to our last metric, which is referrals.

[00:34:35] Michael: Yes.

[00:34:36] Nathan: So do you, do you track referrals in any way?

Yeah. And what are you noticing?

[00:34:41] Michael: Yeah. So thing is, the thing is, back in the day when we were like big with the GTD fans, the referrals were just completely organic and people were just recommending nos B left and right without any, taking any credit of it.

[00:34:54] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:34:54] Michael: And now we’ve built a referral program. Okay.

And, and, uh, and [00:35:00] it’s really built in, it’s, I I, I would like to say it’s very nicely built in that you can very easily generate and A URL and also you can add, you know, testimonials. So if you to nos B, you know, uh, somebody, then they open nos b.com. There is your testimonial. Mm-hmm. ’cause like you, you came from there and still, like, I don’t see, like we, when we track the, the clicks and then, and the, and the recommendations, there are not so many.

Like, uh,

[00:35:25] Nathan: okay, so there’s not many in total number.

[00:35:26] Michael: Yeah.

[00:35:27] Nathan: But where, going back to the funnel view.

[00:35:29] Michael: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:35:30] Nathan: Where’s the breakdown in it? People aren’t generating those links. Those links aren’t getting shared. The shared links aren’t getting visits.

[00:35:37] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[00:35:38] Nathan: Or those visits aren’t converted to customers.

[00:35:40] Michael: I’ll have to check that.

[00:35:41] Nathan: Okay.

[00:35:42] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[00:35:43] Nathan: My guess is it’s pretty high in the funnel, right? Yeah. That they’re not being generated and, and those that are generated aren’t really getting

[00:35:50] Michael: exactly traffic. Mm-hmm.

[00:35:51] Nathan: So again, like awareness, awareness traffic mm-hmm. Is a, is a key issue.

[00:35:56] Michael: Yeah.

[00:35:56] Nathan: Um, so referrals could, like, [00:36:00] referrals were a big opportunity in the past so they could be going forward.

[00:36:04] Michael: Yeah.

[00:36:04] Nathan: Okay. So if we, if we break this down, as far as we know, we don’t have an activation issue.

[00:36:09] Michael: Yeah.

[00:36:10] Nathan: We just don’t have enough top of funnel.

[00:36:12] Michael: Yeah.

[00:36:12] Nathan: We don’t have an expansion issue. Um, no, because that seems fine. Yeah. Maybe that’s a lever that we could pull, but

[00:36:20] Michael: Yes. But it’s not that, that big

[00:36:21] Nathan: of a deal.

It’s an optimization and Yeah, exactly. We need more customers coming in. Yeah.

[00:36:25] Michael: Yeah.

[00:36:25] Nathan: Retention is fine. Referrals are an opportunity.

[00:36:29] Michael: So one more question about awareness and, and everything. So, um, my problem was, it’s, it’s always been kind of how to, how to really sell

[00:36:39] Nathan: mm-hmm.

[00:36:39] Michael: What I’m doing because it’s like, you know, is it that to do app?

Is it that project management app? Is it like, like how do we compare ourselves, you know, to others? Or how do we like, kind of position ourselves like, uh, so, so one of the ideas we had was that, um, that uh, just like, kind of like you say, we help creators like, you know, uh, succeed and [00:37:00] make money on the internet.

Uh, something like that. Uh, so we said that we help small business owners get their private and business life organized mm-hmm. In a simple way. I don’t know if this is the, the right call. We tried with that and, you know, I’m not sure.

[00:37:18] Nathan: Okay. Uh, why don’t we write positioning down?

[00:37:21] Michael: Yeah. Right here.

[00:37:25] Nathan: Okay. These all I wanna touch on. Two quick things. My, my issues here.

[00:37:32] Michael: Yes.

[00:37:32] Nathan: We’ve got positioning, uh, team I want to get into.

[00:37:36] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[00:37:37] Nathan: Um, so let’s try team down right there. Okay.

[00:37:39] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[00:37:41] Nathan: Maybe those. All right. We’ve got plenty of things to cover here. Uhhuh. Um, I wanna touch on metrics really quickly. Mm-hmm.

Okay. It’s so, like, I cannot stress how important it is to have a couple of very simple dashboards

[00:37:56] Michael: mm-hmm.

[00:37:57] Nathan: That show what is actually [00:38:00] happening in the business.

[00:38:00] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[00:38:01] Nathan: And so what you need is you need this funnel view.

[00:38:04] Michael: Yeah.

[00:38:05] Nathan: Um, and so, and then we need this net. Uh, new.

[00:38:09] Michael: Mm-hmm. Not new. Yeah. Mm-hmm.

[00:38:11] Nathan: And so I need to be able to see, if we look at, um, and I guess we need conversions.

Mm-hmm. That’s, that conversions are in the funnel.

[00:38:18] Michael: Yeah. Yeah. Sure.

[00:38:19] Nathan: Um, but I, I need you to be able to look at a metric and know exactly what’s happening. Mm-hmm. Um, because you can see that like, you know, on a weekly basis, uh Right. Yeah. Here’s how it’s fluctuating. Now I put that under funnel. That’s

[00:38:35] Michael: Yeah.

[00:38:35] Nathan: You get the idea.

[00:38:36] Michael: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:38:36] Nathan: Um, that should be right.

[00:38:39] Michael: Okay.

[00:38:39] Nathan: Um, but that you can know this is healthy. Mm-hmm. This is what’s going on. And then as you go to team, each of these metrics have to have someone responsible for it.

[00:38:50] Michael: Ah, right. Mm-hmm.

[00:38:51] Nathan: And so. If you break down the people working on marketing and growth.

Mm-hmm.

[00:38:57] Michael: Yes.

[00:38:57] Nathan: They have to be responsible for,

[00:38:59] Michael: for one of the [00:39:00] metrics.

[00:39:00] Nathan: One of the metrics.

[00:39:01] Michael: Okay.

[00:39:01] Nathan: I’m trying to think of how to phrase it. Yes. But somehow we need the, you know, it’s like I identify key metrics

[00:39:07] Michael: mm-hmm.

[00:39:08] Nathan: Each with an owner.

[00:39:09] Michael: Yeah.

[00:39:10] Nathan: Um, how would we phrase that in a, in a clean, you’re the, you’re the guy.

Key metrics,

[00:39:14] Michael: but not with, with, yeah.

[00:39:15] Nathan: Yeah. Key metrics for the owner.

The

[00:39:16] Michael: owner. Yeah.

[00:39:17] Nathan: Yep.

[00:39:17] Michael: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

[00:39:20] Nathan: Perfect. And then we’re going to need, so this is understood in this, the key metrics. We’re gonna have two, maybe three dashboards.

[00:39:27] Michael: Yeah. Mm-hmm.

[00:39:28] Nathan: And those are the things that are going to be viewed continually.

[00:39:32] Michael: Continually, yeah. Mm-hmm.

[00:39:34] Nathan: Um, so then the next thing that we need for accountability on this is we need meetings,

[00:39:39] Michael: Uhhuh.

[00:39:40] Nathan: Just one, it could be 10 minutes long. Mm-hmm. But on a weekly basis, preferably on a Monday,

[00:39:46] Michael: yeah.

[00:39:46] Nathan: You’re going to get the people who are responsible and they’re going to report on here’s how my Metric is doing.

[00:39:51] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[00:39:52] Nathan: Uh, inside of Kit, we call these initiative meetings.

[00:39:55] Michael: Uhhuh,

[00:39:55] Nathan: we have four of them.

[00:39:56] Michael: Yeah.

[00:39:57] Nathan: Um, and we have one around revenue, which is [00:40:00] really about our funnel, about leads, all of that. Mm-hmm. You know, awareness, like

[00:40:04] Michael: mm-hmm.

[00:40:05] Nathan: Um, is search traffic doing what it’s supposed to? Is each of these things. Right.

And so each person is reporting on

[00:40:11] Michael: mm-hmm.

[00:40:12] Nathan: I own the affiliate channel, here’s what affiliates has done, how’s performing over this week, here’s the actions we’re taking to fix it next.

[00:40:18] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[00:40:18] Nathan: And that was their 62nd update.

[00:40:21] Michael: Yeah.

[00:40:21] Nathan: And it’s just really about accountability.

[00:40:23] Michael: Okay. Mm-hmm.

[00:40:24] Nathan: And so, um, I think you need to add that meeting.

[00:40:28] Michael: Yes.

[00:40:29] Nathan: I think it should be, maybe initially it’s 30 minutes.

[00:40:32] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[00:40:32] Nathan: And you’ll get it dialed in mm-hmm. Where you’re really trying to find the signal versus noise. Um, and so I would put. Metrics with the owner, maybe just add another two item. Mm-hmm. Um, just say, uh, revenue meeting.

[00:40:45] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[00:40:45] Nathan: Right. That’s kinda the main thing that we care about.

Yeah.

[00:40:47] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[00:40:49] Nathan: And so now we’re gonna dive deep into each one of those. You know, customer support really ties into revenue, so

[00:40:56] Michael: mm-hmm.

[00:40:57] Nathan: Because it’s a small team.

[00:40:58] Michael: Yeah.

[00:40:59] Nathan: I would just [00:41:00] have this like really tight, Hey, here’s our happiness metrics. Here’s how many tickets we answered. Mm-hmm. You know, here’s all, all of that

[00:41:07] Michael: happiness metrics.

[00:41:08] Nathan: Uh, yeah. And I, I just, I would just, it’s within this, within this meeting. So revenue, CX or uh, cs, however you cs.

[00:41:16] Michael: Yep. Mm-hmm.

[00:41:17] Nathan: Um, uh, and you’ll touch on the funnel review and all that. Yeah. So now the, now what we have is the business is broken out where people own different aspects of mm-hmm. The performance of it.

And there is weekly accountability to how is it performing.

[00:41:30] Michael: Okay.

[00:41:31] Nathan: And, and weekly awareness.

[00:41:32] Michael: Yes.

[00:41:33] Nathan: Right. If I were to ask your marketing team and what did traffic do last week,

[00:41:36] Michael: Uhhuh,

[00:41:37] Nathan: you think they’ll know off the top of their heads?

[00:41:38] Michael: No.

[00:41:38] Nathan: Yeah. And we didn’t take hit either.

[00:41:41] Michael: Uhhuh.

[00:41:41] Nathan: Right. Now we do. Now everybody knows.

Right. Um, and you know, to fix it. Yes. Because, you know, do everything you can to fix it. Like did you do the actions?

[00:41:51] Michael: Yes, yes,

[00:41:51] Nathan: yes. Um, the other thing that you can get into is, uh, lead measures versus lag measures.

[00:41:57] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[00:41:57] Nathan: Right?

[00:41:58] Michael: Yeah.

[00:41:58] Nathan: Because basically did we do [00:42:00] our projects, which are leading indicators? Yeah.

And then when do we expect them to show up? To

[00:42:03] Michael: show up? Yeah.

[00:42:04] Nathan: Mm-hmm. In the lagging indicators.

[00:42:05] Michael: Yeah.

[00:42:05] Nathan: All right. So now we have those things. So once we identify the metrics, we at least know what’s going on.

[00:42:10] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[00:42:11] Nathan: Um, you know, we’re getting into like what gets measured, gets managed. Yes. Uh, type of idea, but let’s go, let’s go to our next item, which is traffic.

[00:42:19] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[00:42:19] Nathan: And awareness as a whole.

[00:42:21] Michael: Yeah.

[00:42:22] Nathan: You have felt firsthand what it looks like when, uh, you have a huge spike of awareness.

[00:42:28] Michael: Yes.

[00:42:29] Nathan: Right. You get this article. Yeah. You get, you know, all these other things. So the what as far as what’s worked for attention.

[00:42:36] Michael: Yeah.

[00:42:37] Nathan: Lemme just, uh. We’ll write down attention, we’ll make a list.

[00:42:41] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[00:42:42] Nathan: So it’s been content.

[00:42:46] Michael: Mm-hmm. Yes.

[00:42:47] Nathan: Um, what else?

[00:42:50] Michael: Um, so we have, uh, uh, yeah, con, I mean, it’s

[00:42:53] Nathan: content from other people almost entirely, right?

[00:42:55] Michael: Yeah.

[00:42:56] Nathan: Has it been content from you all

[00:42:57] Michael: as well? We have, uh, uh, uh, [00:43:00] so we have a, a biweekly podcast.

[00:43:02] Nathan: Okay. Does anyone listen to it?

[00:43:04] Michael: Yeah. I mean, we have like, how many people?

The, but not many, like 300, 400 people. Uh, oh. Per episode. Like, it’s 600 people per episode.

[00:43:11] Nathan: Okay.

[00:43:13] Michael: So, uh, so we have that podcast and, uh, because of the podcast, we also, uh, ’cause the podcast is also the, the idea for the podcast is also that in each episode we, uh, we try to, uh, also deal with some, um, advice for our users

[00:43:29] Nathan: if we shut down the podcast today.

[00:43:31] Michael: Yeah.

[00:43:31] Nathan: What would happen to traffic, to traffic of, to this funnel?

[00:43:35] Michael: I’m not sure. I have to figure it out.

[00:43:38] Nathan: Um, do you My gut feeling is nothing. Yeah.

[00:43:43] Michael: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Could be.

[00:43:44] Nathan: Um, so I would look at, I would look hard at the content that you’re doing. Mm-hmm. What you’re spending

[00:43:49] Michael: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:43:50] Nathan: To create that. And if it’s creating results,

[00:43:52] Michael: if it’s, if it’s creative result Yeah.

[00:43:53] Nathan: Now it might not be affecting, um, the mm-hmm. The growth.

[00:43:57] Michael: Yeah.

[00:43:57] Nathan: But it might be helping with retention because your true [00:44:00] fans absolutely love it.

[00:44:01] Michael: Yeah.

[00:44:01] Nathan: And this is a good touch point.

[00:44:02] Michael: Yes.

[00:44:03] Nathan: But you really watch for these things that you’re doing that, uh, it’s emotion that you’re going through, but it’s not Yeah.

[00:44:10] Michael: Yeah. That’s true. It’s like when I heard, uh, one of your previous shows, uh, one of the mistakes people make that they don’t reach past 1 million is they stick to what’s something that worked in the past. Yes. But, you know,

[00:44:24] Nathan: or another interesting exercise, if you look at your team mm-hmm. If we dive into that one for a second.

Yeah. If you imagine this, this little box

[00:44:34] Michael: Yeah.

[00:44:34] Nathan: That’s your company. Mm-hmm. Sometimes these teams and has done this too often.

[00:44:39] Michael: Yeah.

[00:44:40] Nathan: Everything, all the attention and energy,

[00:44:44] Michael: uhhuh

[00:44:44] Nathan: and conversations and everything else,

[00:44:47] Michael: Uhhuh

[00:44:48] Nathan: is inside the box. Yeah. You know?

[00:44:49] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[00:44:50] Nathan: And you can fall into this trap with the metrics, right?

[00:44:53] Michael: Yeah.

[00:44:53] Nathan: Now four of us are meeting about what’s happening with the metrics, and this is moving in this way. And then if you could close the loop with whoever and meet with this other [00:45:00] person, and all we’re doing is we’re just going around in circles inside our little box.

[00:45:07] Michael: Yeah.

[00:45:07] Nathan: Right?

[00:45:07] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[00:45:09] Nathan: And customers don’t know.

Customers don’t care, and all of that. And what you have to do instead mm-hmm. Is look at, okay, how much energy is going outside of the box? Outside of the

box.

[00:45:19] Nathan: Right. And it could be in improving the product, it could be in, uh, marketing partner conversations. Mm-hmm. Um, it could be in creating content, it could be in customer support, getting out there.

I find it helpful to break down a team and look at what’s inside the box.

[00:45:37] Michael: Yeah. And

[00:45:38] Nathan: what’s inside and what’s outside the box and how has that changed over time?

[00:45:41] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[00:45:41] Nathan: Something for us, we, when we were in this crazy growth mode

[00:45:46] Michael: uhhuh,

[00:45:47] Nathan: we went from, in a six month period from 10,000 of MRR to a hundred thousand.

[00:45:51] Michael: Yeah.

[00:45:52] Nathan: And everything that we did was outside of the box

[00:45:56] Michael: Uhhuh.

[00:45:56] Nathan: Right. Because people were like, oh, your meeting [00:46:00] structure is broken. You’re like, yep.

[00:46:02] Michael: We don’t,

[00:46:03] Nathan: we don’t, we don’t care. We’re just trying to keep up. We’re just, you know, it was webinars, it was all of these things. How do we, um, how do we get out there?

[00:46:11] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[00:46:12] Nathan: Uh, so I would really look at that, uh, from your team.

[00:46:15] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[00:46:15] Nathan: What amount of these people, what amount is internal versus what is actually

[00:46:20] Michael: external?

[00:46:21] Nathan: Uh, what impacts customers? What impacts awareness?

[00:46:24] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[00:46:26] Nathan: Alright, so we’re talking about traffic and attention. So content, these big write-ups, Uhhuh, you know, I, which I bucketed under press.

It’s not true press necessarily, but

[00:46:35] Michael: I wanna give you an example of something that did work Okay. Uh, uh, uh, recently. So, um, so we had this, uh, I had this idea that, uh, that, uh, there are these productivity consultants or mm-hmm. Coaches and, uh, and some of them are really, they have their own kind of, you know, special secret sauce of how they’re teaching people productivity.

And I, I was, uh, naive enough that I thought, you know, maybe they could teach their methods [00:47:00] using our tool. Okay. Because our tool is pretty simple to use. It’s pretty simple to onboard. So they could, you know, have their content there, but, uh, you know, uh, and teach their productivity principles using our very flexible, very cool, mm-hmm.

App. And, uh, basically it mostly failed. Uh, so we have this, this, uh, this expert program. We have a few experts onboarded. Um. Except for one person. So there is this, uh, uh, uh, there’s this, uh, woman in Poland. Uh, she’s a consultant and she, um, she had this, uh, idea that she is teaching other business women, uh, how to get their, uh, you know, uh mm-hmm.

Files organized on the computer. And then when, once, and she was so good with this, then they, they later asked her, can you teach us, you know, project management? And she’s doing it with us. Okay. So using our tool, so for example, whenever, uh, she onboards new customers

[00:47:51] Nathan: mm-hmm.

[00:47:52] Michael: Uh, to her, like she sells her course, uh, they, each of these cus this new customers, they get, uh, uh, a free Nosb account [00:48:00] for, for duration of the course.

[00:48:01] Nathan: Okay.

[00:48:02] Michael: And then she basically does the onboarding for us because she teaches them how to set up their company using NOS B. And then after that they usually. Extend their subscription. And, uh, so it’s a win-win, win. Everybody’s happy. They, they are happy because they have set up their business inside of our app and they feel very well organized.

She delivered her course, sold the course, and the, the, the, the customers are happy and, uh, the extent not speed subscription.

[00:48:32] Nathan: Okay. I love that. So that’s, that’s an example of a partner.

[00:48:34] Michael: Yeah.

[00:48:35] Nathan: Right. Who is both teaching, here’s how to use the product, uh, let me help you use it, and all of that.

[00:48:39] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[00:48:40] Nathan: You said that it failed all in all of those cases except for her.

[00:48:44] Michael: Exactly.

[00:48:44] Nathan: Was that because everyone else is different because your offer was different?

[00:48:49] Michael: Uh,

[00:48:49] Nathan: like

[00:48:49] Michael: what I, what I um, so I, I realized that some, some of the, some of these people, uh, they said that they, they wanna be platform agnostic, so they don’t want to, you [00:49:00] know, commit to one app because there are so many apps and because customers demand that, uh, and she was the only one who had basically the, the, the gut to say, no, no, no, I’m gonna just.

Teach you through nsbe if you want to, you know, learn from in a different tool. Not here, because I am great at NSBE and I have my, you know, content and all my, you know, everything prepared with nsbe. And so she, she was gutsy enough to just use our app and because, uh, we were helping her like a lot ’cause, uh, like we did special integrations for her so that everything, you know, so we are like, we have a great, you know, relationship like this.

Um, but like others, they didn’t kind of, they couldn’t, uh, like, you know, um, um, make the jump to, to say that.

[00:49:43] Nathan: Okay. So I wanna,

[00:49:47] Michael: yeah.

[00:49:48] Nathan: Um, if someone wants to be platform agnostic

[00:49:51] Michael: Yeah.

[00:49:51] Nathan: Which makes sense, right? Mm-hmm. They want their content to live and someone’s saying, Hey, does this still work? If I want to use any of these other, these other tools?

[00:49:59] Michael: Yeah.

[00:49:59] Nathan: Um, [00:50:00] typically

[00:50:01] Michael: mm-hmm.

[00:50:02] Nathan: It’s an incentive. Incentive problem.

[00:50:04] Michael: Maybe. Mm-hmm.

[00:50:05] Nathan: And I would say, you know, show me the incentives and I’ll show you the outcome.

[00:50:08] Michael: Okay.

[00:50:09] Nathan: And so in this case, maybe the incentives of I can create less content and training. Mm-hmm. I can make better outcomes for my customers and I will get all of the support from Nasbe, like mm-hmm.

That to her was worth it. But to everyone else, they looked at that equation and said, it’s not worth it to me.

[00:50:26] Michael: Uhhuh.

[00:50:27] Nathan: And so I would find out what, what incentives do these people actually care about?

[00:50:32] Michael: Yeah.

[00:50:32] Nathan: Maybe first. Mm-hmm. Of partners. How many people like her exist? Are there thousands, tens of thousands?

Like, are there enough?

[00:50:40] Michael: I don’t know. I we’re, we’re, we’re trying to find out.

[00:50:44] Nathan: Um, so within this,

[00:50:46] Michael: mm-hmm.

[00:50:47] Nathan: We need incentives.

[00:50:49] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[00:50:52] Nathan: We need to know the total addressable market.

[00:50:56] Michael: Yeah.

[00:50:57] Nathan: Um, gut feeling

[00:50:59] Michael: mm-hmm.

[00:50:59] Nathan: [00:51:00] Based on the millionaire R that we’re at now.

[00:51:02] Michael: Yeah.

[00:51:03] Nathan: And what it would take

[00:51:04] Michael: Yeah. To, to,

[00:51:05] Nathan: to increase awareness. I am with a hundred percent confidence. The total adjustable market is big enough.

[00:51:12] Michael: Uhhuh,

[00:51:12] Nathan: like you,

[00:51:14] Michael: you think so?

[00:51:14] Nathan: Yeah. There’s no limitation on number of partners.

Mm-hmm. And the problem is that you’re,

[00:51:18] Michael: yeah.

[00:51:18] Nathan: They don’t know your products exists. Mm-hmm. And they don’t know

[00:51:22] Michael: Yeah.

[00:51:22] Nathan: That they don’t feel that the incentives are strong enough

[00:51:24] Michael: Exactly.

[00:51:24] Nathan: To partner with you.

[00:51:25] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[00:51:26] Nathan: So how are you gonna fix that?

[00:51:30] Michael: Well try to pursue them better. Okay. And find better incentives for them.

[00:51:34] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:51:35] Michael: So maybe do it like, like, like, like you did with your first customer, like really target individually and try to convince them individually.

[00:51:42] Nathan: Yeah. So let’s look at, you know, one way to get attention is direct sales.

[00:51:46] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[00:51:50] Nathan: I love this method because it is entirely within my control.

[00:51:53] Michael: Yeah.

[00:51:53] Nathan: Instead of saying, oh, if I do position this in this way, will it get picked up by someone else? Mm-hmm. All this stuff. Mm-hmm. Like, [00:52:00] that’s so hard.

[00:52:01] Michael: Yeah.

[00:52:01] Nathan: But direct sales is like, well, who did you reach out to? Were they with the right people?

Did you have good copy? You know, and how long have you been doing this? And what was your follow-up like? Like it is entirely on you.

[00:52:12] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[00:52:13] Nathan: And so I, you know, love and hate it

[00:52:16] Michael: for

[00:52:16] Nathan: both those reasons.

[00:52:18] Michael: Yeah.

[00:52:18] Nathan: Um, so the problem here with direct sales in this business

[00:52:24] Michael: is that it’s not,

[00:52:26] Nathan: is this right

[00:52:26] Michael: here? Yeah, exactly.

It’s cheap.

[00:52:28] Nathan: They dollars a month. You can’t afford to, you can’t build a sales team. And so that’s why it’s like, okay, we can’t do direct sales for customers.

[00:52:35] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[00:52:36] Nathan: Right. That’s not gonna work. Mm-hmm. Unless you make up some enterprise product and

[00:52:43] Michael: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:52:43] Nathan: All that, that feels like a really big pivot.

[00:52:45] Michael: No, exactly.

Yeah.

[00:52:46] Nathan: Okay. But we can do it.

[00:52:48] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[00:52:48] Nathan: For partners.

[00:52:49] Michael: Exactly.

[00:52:50] Nathan: Um

[00:52:50] Michael: mm-hmm. That’s true.

’cause then we have the scale.

[00:52:58] Nathan: Yep. So the things that [00:53:00] it, like this is entirely new motion to build up.

[00:53:03] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[00:53:03] Nathan: But the things that I like about this are that in the past you have had partners

[00:53:09] Michael: Yes.

[00:53:09] Nathan: That find success, that love the product. All of these things, like the core ingredients are there. I think it’s the go to market motion that’s not.

[00:53:19] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[00:53:21] Nathan: And so if I were diving in and running this

[00:53:27] Michael: mm-hmm. Lemme

[00:53:28] Nathan: think of what I would do.

The things Yeah. That I’m trying to figure out. I would go, I would figure out positioning.

[00:53:37] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[00:53:40] Nathan: And then I’d figure out partners.

[00:53:41] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[00:53:42] Nathan: And they go hand in hand,

[00:53:43] Michael: Uhhuh.

[00:53:44] Nathan: Right. We need to figure out what is the positioning that resonates both with the partners and with the people that the partners reach.

[00:53:51] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[00:53:51] Nathan: But then I would be all in on this direct sales motion mm-hmm. Of how do I

[00:53:55] Michael: get to the

[00:53:56] Nathan: partners, line up as many partnerships as PO as possible. Mm-hmm. And then [00:54:00] within those, within those partnerships, you’re really gonna have, I believe, two core methodology or two core, uh, conversion. Mm-hmm. Methods, one’s gonna be webinars.

[00:54:13] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[00:54:15] Nathan: And then the other, um, is probably like embedded courses.

[00:54:21] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[00:54:23] Nathan: That’s what this one one was so successful with. Right.

[00:54:25] Michael: Uhhuh? Yes.

[00:54:27] Nathan: Both of these take time to activate, which can be,

[00:54:29] Michael: yeah.

[00:54:30] Nathan: Can be difficult. Okay. So before we go further, I wanna take a step back, Uhhuh, and look at everything that we’ve mapped out.

[00:54:35] Michael: Yeah.

[00:54:36] Nathan: So we’ve identified that awareness is the biggest problem in the business.

[00:54:39] Michael: Yes.

[00:54:40] Nathan: We’ve identified, we have a flag around team, something around positioning. Positioning. And we need, we need to pull all of this together into a go-to-market function. Yeah. That’s gonna drive awareness and traffic.

[00:54:53] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[00:54:53] Nathan: And we need to build a team and metrics that can turn this into a machine.

[00:54:57] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[00:54:58] Nathan: So [00:55:00] now lemme think about where we wanna go. I think the, the problem that we need to solve next mm-hmm. Is positioning.

[00:55:06] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[00:55:06] Nathan: Because what worked for the position before is not working now.

[00:55:10] Michael: Exactly.

[00:55:11] Nathan: What experiments have you run around positioning?

What have you, what have you tried? Is there any gut feeling on. Um, or resonates.

[00:55:20] Michael: Yeah.

[00:55:20] Nathan: So what would resonate?

[00:55:21] Michael: Yeah. So, uh, as I mentioned, we try to, you know, position to small business owners mm-hmm. Like to, to, to like, you know, get them organized and, uh, that we, I was trying also to play on the, on the, you know, on the value of, of, of, of the software that, you know, that like this kind of idea that, uh, you know, uh, if you just start using nos b you will, you know, instantly save more than an hour per month.

So basically it pays for itself already. Yeah. This kind of things. So,

[00:55:51] Nathan: okay.

[00:55:52] Michael: Um, yeah. So

[00:55:56] Nathan: let’s,[00:56:00]

what is the promise of NAS B? Why should I sign up?

[00:56:09] Michael: The promise of NAS B is that, uh, you will have everything. Organized.

[00:56:17] Nathan: Okay.

[00:56:17] Michael: And, uh, you know, on your phone

[00:56:20] Nathan: mm-hmm.

[00:56:21] Michael: Everywhere. It syncs everywhere. And, and, um, together with your team, you’ll know exactly who’s working on what and, and, uh, uh

[00:56:34] Nathan: oh. And that will result in me saving time

[00:56:37] Michael: Exactly.

Away.

[00:56:44] Nathan: Ah, no, that’s okay. Um, isn’t this the promise of Asana, cello, clickup, everybody else

[00:56:53] Michael: could be. Mm.

[00:56:55] Nathan: So why am why nasbe?

[00:56:57] Michael: Because it’s simpler.

[00:56:58] Nathan: Okay.

[00:56:59] Michael: It’s [00:57:00] simpler. So it’s, uh,

[00:57:00] Nathan: why do I care that it’s simpler? Simpler is limiting.

[00:57:03] Michael: Yeah. But simpler is limiting. But on the other hand, simpler makes your team and everyone on your team use it more.

Because if.

[00:57:12] Nathan: Okay.

[00:57:12] Michael: Because the, the problem is that, so I have this problem with, with business owners. Business owners say, yeah, but I want this, this, and this, and this, and these features. And we have tried that and we have tested it. And when you introduce a complicate piece of software to your team, nobody uses it.

While when we introduce nsbe, because it’s, it’s such a simple structure of projects, tasks, and comments.

[00:57:32] Nathan: Why does it matter to use it more?

[00:57:34] Michael: Because then, uh, like all the, like, so just like your metrics that we don’t have, like everything else is in nsbe. So you’ll know exactly who’s working on what, which projects are open, which tasks are open.

And if a task has an issue, you can comment and you can just iron out the issue. So, you know, so for example, from a business. Owner standpoint. Uh, I don’t have to ask my, my, my team members, uh, what’s the [00:58:00] status of things. I can just log into NSBE and just I can see exactly what’s the status of projects and what’s going on.

[00:58:06] Nathan: Okay. So it runs the business all, but I wanna, I wanna like drill in on this. Yeah. Yeah. Use it more. ’cause you’re, you almost have something here. Um,

[00:58:14] Michael: almost.

[00:58:16] Nathan: Okay. So I, if, let’s go the other way.

[00:58:19] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[00:58:19] Nathan: I have the most advanced, most sophisticated project management tool. It does everything.

[00:58:25] Michael: Yeah.

[00:58:28] Nathan: And my team doesn’t actually use it

[00:58:29] Michael: exactly

[00:58:30] Nathan: what happens.

[00:58:31] Michael: Uh, like it useless like your uh uh. You do I two things or you just drop it or you invest lots of time to force people and you know, teach them mm-hmm. The software so that they eventually start using it.

[00:58:48] Nathan: Yeah. And if we were to do some very fancy stick figure drawing, right. Uhhuh, that is our stick figure person trying to push this boulder off a giant hill.

[00:58:59] Michael: Exactly, [00:59:00] exactly

[00:59:00] Nathan: right.

[00:59:00] Michael: Yeah.

[00:59:01] Nathan: If you run, lead a marketing team, if you lead anything else, do you wanna spend all of your time

[00:59:06] Michael: Yeah. Pushing,

[00:59:07] Nathan: trying to get your team to adopt a tool.

[00:59:10] Michael: Yeah.

[00:59:11] Nathan: That has endless friction.

[00:59:13] Michael: Yeah.

[00:59:13] Nathan: Or do you want them to use the tool that. They’re gonna actually use,

[00:59:19] Michael: I’ll give you an example.

So one of our customers is a construction company.

[00:59:22] Nathan: Okay?

[00:59:23] Michael: And they have, uh, um, all these projects in nos b as as a different construction sites, right? And he has all his team, I mean all of the team, the, the plumbers, like the everyone who’s on in the construction in NOS B.

[00:59:37] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:59:37] Michael: And they update their tasks inside of NOS B.

And he said to me when I was interviewing him and I was asking how the business is going, he told me now I’m at the stage that if I would tell my team that I’m gonna take nos B away from them, they would kill me because they got used to using it. And they know it’s so simple, they can update their things and from his point of view, he can be [01:00:00] visiting his construction sites by just basically opening the projects.

So, so, uh, so this is what happens when a success, when they actually use Yes,

[01:00:14] Nathan: I think that. This is your promise.

[01:00:18] Michael: Yeah. It could be. You’re right.

[01:00:19] Nathan: And I think it’s, it’s, uh, I think it’s a very powerful promise because you can sell the pain

[01:00:25] Michael: mm-hmm.

[01:00:25] Nathan: Of what happens if they don’t use it.

[01:00:28] Michael: Exactly.

[01:00:28] Nathan: Right. Because you’re constantly chasing people. Did you update this thing? Yeah. Does that Oh yeah, I would, but I gotta do it on my computer.

It’s gonna take so long.

[01:00:36] Michael: Exactly.

[01:00:36] Nathan: Hold on. Did you want that in a task, in a project, or

[01:00:39] Michael: mm-hmm.

[01:00:40] Nathan: You know, all of these things.

[01:00:41] Michael: Exactly.

[01:00:42] Nathan: Or you say, look, we strip away everything else. This is the tool that you actually use.

[01:00:47] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[01:00:48] Nathan: And that is what gets the, the results.

[01:00:50] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[01:00:50] Nathan: And so if I were you,

[01:00:52] Michael: yeah.

[01:00:53] Nathan: I would fix your positioning.

[01:00:55] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[01:00:56] Nathan: So let’s write this down as our to do

[01:00:58] Michael: fix positioning.

[01:00:58] Nathan: Fix positioning,

[01:00:59] Michael: Uhhuh. [01:01:00]

[01:01:00] Nathan: And we’re not gonna get to the positioning in a one hour mm-hmm. Podcast episode.

[01:01:05] Michael: No.

[01:01:05] Nathan: But we’ve gotten to like the essence of the core promise. Mm-hmm.

Right.

[01:01:10] Nathan: And. I think that that,

[01:01:13] Michael: yeah,

[01:01:14] Nathan: I like, because everyone is going to say

[01:01:16] Michael: Uhhuh,

[01:01:17] Nathan: why?

[01:01:19] Michael: Yeah,

[01:01:19] Nathan: why Nasbe versus Clickup. Yeah. Why Nasbe versus whoever.

[01:01:22] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[01:01:23] Nathan: And I, as a partner can say, because NAS B is the tool that your team will actually use.

[01:01:27] Michael: Exactly.

[01:01:29] Nathan: And it’s not a six month adoption process. It’s not chasing them down. Do all this. Like, you just actually use it and you know what, and here’s the benefits of actually using it.

[01:01:39] Michael: You know, sometimes we have, we’ve had these situations and sometimes a team signed up mm-hmm. And the person complained to us that the team is not using it, and then they, they signed up for a demo with Magda, the whole team. So like, she shows up on the Zoom and then there is the whole team, you know, looking at her and she does a demo.

And after this one demo of half an hour, like it’s done, [01:02:00] they’re just like, then, then after a month or they, they extend their plan for a year or something. Like they, uh, so it’s very, in that sense, we’ve been very successful with. Right. It’s really, you know, the, when the team sees that it’s only this, you can add a task like this, and it’s so simple.

They, they get the aha moment, you know?

[01:02:19] Nathan: Yep. Okay. So we’re gonna have to fix positioning. We’re really dive in in this.

[01:02:25] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[01:02:26] Nathan: The tool that’s actually used, you’ve got, you’ve got some fancy illustrations, but, uh,

[01:02:30] Michael: exactly. I’ll,

[01:02:31] Nathan: I’ll let you know my hourly rate later. All right. Thank you. I’ll read in your marketing site with my stick figures.

It’d be great.

[01:02:37] Michael: Yes.

[01:02:40] Nathan: Once we fix the positioning, now we can go out to partners.

[01:02:43] Michael: Yes.

[01:02:44] Nathan: So now we need a motion to, like, to go out to, to partners.

[01:02:47] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[01:02:48] Nathan: And how do we identify the right people?

[01:02:51] Michael: Yeah.

[01:02:51] Nathan: Um, I, I think if, so, if we, if you write down partners mm-hmm. As a to do, and then under [01:03:00] that.

Uh, maybe our sub-bullets would be, uh, identify.

[01:03:10] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[01:03:11] Nathan: And then, um,

[01:03:15] Michael: mm-hmm.

[01:03:16] Nathan: Let’s go incentives.

[01:03:17] Michael: Mm-hmm. Yes.

Incentives.

[01:03:23] Nathan: And then identify incentives, let’s just say outbound.

[01:03:27] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[01:03:28] Nathan: So within this, because I, I believe that there’s almost an endless number of partners, right? Way more than, than you. I think so

[01:03:39] Michael: too. Right.

[01:03:41] Nathan: So what I would do is I would identify all the possible partners.

[01:03:45] Michael: Okay.

[01:03:46] Nathan: Uh, AI is really good at this.

[01:03:47] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[01:03:48] Nathan: Uh, so you can, you can help with that. You know, who are, I have this content creator who are a hundred people like them.

[01:03:55] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[01:03:56] Nathan: You know, that sort of thing. Go back to everyone who sent referrals in the [01:04:00] past.

[01:04:00] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[01:04:00] Nathan: And see what are they up to now? Are they still Oh

[01:04:02] Michael: yeah. Yeah, exactly. Um.

[01:04:04] Nathan: Figuring out, I would say, Hey, we rebuilt Nas B from the ground up.

Mm-hmm. And it’s incredible. You don’t need to mention that you did it in 2020. That was five years ago.

[01:04:11] Michael: Yeah.

[01:04:12] Nathan: You rebuilt Nas B from the ground up and it’s incredible.

[01:04:14] Michael: Yeah.

[01:04:15] Nathan: And you’re gonna nail the positioning on this. Mm-hmm. You have the case study.

[01:04:22] Michael: Yeah.

[01:04:22] Nathan: Right. So, um, let’s just, where are we gonna put this?

Maybe right here. Uh, create case study.

[01:04:30] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[01:04:33] Nathan: We, we have one or two successful partners who are killing it. Right. So create case study on them.

[01:04:38] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[01:04:40] Nathan: Um, and so we can go out with that. We’re going to

[01:04:44] Michael: mm-hmm.

[01:04:45] Nathan: Talk about here’s how we’d love to partner.

[01:04:47] Michael: Yeah.

[01:04:48] Nathan: Um, do you, what’s the incentive structure look like?

Because that’s the next thing we need to go

[01:04:52] Michael: to. Yeah. For, so, so, uh, for the, uh, for the partner. Yeah. So, um, they have, um, [01:05:00] uh. So when we have the, the affiliate program, so the referral program, uh, in our referral program, like we give 25% after, uh, revenue for the first two years of a customer.

[01:05:10] Nathan: Okay.

[01:05:10] Michael: And when you are a partner, you get 30% or more sometimes, uh mm-hmm.

And for three years. So it’s a better incentive in that sense. Plus the other incentives are what I mentioned. You work with us together, direct line to us, we work with you, we build some features just for you or kind of for you first.

[01:05:30] Nathan: Mm-hmm. ‘

[01:05:31] Michael: cause this is also our way of, um, sometimes put typing a feature that, that, you know, if we have one case study that they will actually use it.

Right. Then we can later build the feature for everyone else.

[01:05:42] Nathan: Mm-hmm. Okay. So what I would do is

I’m thinking about these incentives.

[01:05:49] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[01:05:52] Nathan: Because. Uh, like you often do the math. Yeah. And someone might not make very much money

[01:05:58] Michael: mm-hmm.

[01:05:59] Nathan: From [01:06:00] one of these, these deals for a while.

[01:06:01] Michael: Yeah.

[01:06:02] Nathan: Right. Let’s say that I do a webinar to mm-hmm. Uh, a hundred people.

[01:06:06] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[01:06:07] Nathan: Or a hundred people show up live to a 10% convert.

[01:06:10] Michael: Yeah.

[01:06:10] Nathan: You know, now we’re like, okay, we actually only when now we’re selling $80 a month.

[01:06:17] Michael: Yeah. Yeah.

[01:06:17] Nathan: I’m making 30% of that, that, that. Mm-hmm. Right. And so we’re like,

[01:06:21] Michael: Hmm,

[01:06:21] Nathan: okay.

[01:06:22] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[01:06:23] Nathan: Do a webinar with me and you’ll make 25, 30, $40 a month. Like

[01:06:27] Michael: uhhuh

[01:06:27] Nathan: not super compelling.

[01:06:28] Michael: Yeah.

[01:06:29] Nathan: And so you might need to figure out ways to front load, uh,

[01:06:33] Michael: ah, yeah.

[01:06:33] Nathan: Some of that

[01:06:34] Michael: uhhuh,

[01:06:34] Nathan: you might not need to do it long term.

[01:06:36] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[01:06:37] Nathan: But because awareness is such a huge problem.

[01:06:40] Michael: Yes.

[01:06:41] Nathan: If you allocated. $5,000 a month

[01:06:45] Michael: mm-hmm.

[01:06:46] Nathan: Of your budget, which might be a big part of the marketing budget.

[01:06:48] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[01:06:49] Nathan: To just say, Hey, I will pay you

[01:06:51] Michael: mm-hmm.

[01:06:51] Nathan: To do this webinar.

[01:06:53] Michael: Okay.

[01:06:53] Nathan: And teach this workshop and to implement NAS B and you’ll make this money upfront.

Mm-hmm. Like it is more of a sponsorship with this like

[01:06:59] Michael: uhhuh

[01:06:59] Nathan: long [01:07:00] tail partner.

[01:07:00] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[01:07:01] Nathan: Then you could learn faster.

[01:07:03] Michael: Yes.

[01:07:03] Nathan: Because my worry is that the incentives

[01:07:06] Michael: mm-hmm.

[01:07:07] Nathan: Uh, that we have under our partner program mm-hmm. That 30% is not gonna be compelling enough

[01:07:11] Michael: Yeah. To try

[01:07:12] Nathan: to try until we have scale.

Mm-hmm. And then we’re not gonna learn enough.

[01:07:16] Michael: Yeah.

[01:07:16] Nathan: And it’s just gonna feel like our outbound function failed.

[01:07:18] Michael: Yeah.

[01:07:19] Nathan: When in reality there there’s a lot more that, um, could go out with it.

Mm-hmm.

[01:07:23] Nathan: So I would spend a lot of time on the incentives

[01:07:27] Michael: mm-hmm.

[01:07:27] Nathan: And I would be willing to front load some of those incentives.

[01:07:31] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[01:07:32] Nathan: Um. Would you be able to allocate $5,000 a month?

[01:07:37] Michael: Yeah.

[01:07:38] Nathan: Okay.

[01:07:38] Michael: Sure.

[01:07:39] Nathan: Would you be able to allocate 10,000 a month or is that So be tight. Not sure.

[01:07:42] Michael: I’ll, I’ll have to check. Mm-hmm.

[01:07:43] Nathan: Um, but that would be the kind of thing. Yeah. You know, if you could say, well say 10,000, if that’s the number we’re working with, maybe you’re doing two, two that are big.

[01:07:54] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[01:07:55] Nathan: Like $3,000 each or something like that. Mm-hmm. Um, and then you’re doing a few [01:08:00] that are, um, small Yeah. Where you’re saying, Hey, we’ll pay you a thousand dollars to this webinar. Mm-hmm. All of that. And then they’re, um, they’re in it with you and they earn on the long tail.

[01:08:09] Michael: Yeah.

[01:08:09] Nathan: And you can start to get this motion going.

Mm-hmm.

[01:08:11] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[01:08:11] Nathan: Doesn’t mean you need to do it long term.

[01:08:13] Michael: Yeah.

[01:08:14] Nathan: But then you’ll have more case studies, you’ll have more numbers.

[01:08:16] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[01:08:17] Nathan: Um, and, and on from there. Okay. Now let’s talk about the outbound function.

[01:08:22] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[01:08:23] Nathan: So now you need someone who is, uh, doing that outbound sales.

[01:08:30] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[01:08:30] Nathan: Um. Is that you, is that someone else?

Like what’s your good instinct on it?

[01:08:36] Michael: Um, yeah, this, in the beginning, that would be me and probably, uh, one more person. One

[01:08:44] Nathan: of your team members?

[01:08:44] Michael: Yeah. Mm-hmm.

[01:08:45] Nathan: Yeah.

[01:08:46] Michael: Yeah. Especially, especially in the beginning. Uh, you always said that it’s good that we do it actually to see, uh,

[01:08:52] Nathan: I think so You’ll get, also get a higher conversion rate just as the, as the founder, ceo, EO

[01:08:56] Michael: mm-hmm.

[01:08:56] Nathan: You know, you have the passion for the product that will come through.

[01:08:59] Michael: Mm-hmm. [01:09:00]

[01:09:00] Nathan: Um, so I think that you need a way

[01:09:02] Michael: mm-hmm.

[01:09:03] Nathan: To tee up as many of these opportunities as possible. Yes. Um, I think the ai mm-hmm. Sales development reps mm-hmm. Are getting pretty good.

[01:09:10] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[01:09:11] Nathan: Um, so I would go read, there’s articles from Jason Lemkin.

Uhhuh from Saster.

[01:09:16] Michael: Okay.

[01:09:16] Nathan: Uh, on that exact process,

[01:09:18] Michael: Uhhuh,

[01:09:18] Nathan: so I’d probably take one of your marketing people

[01:09:20] Michael: mm-hmm.

[01:09:21] Nathan: And say, your job is to get us as many, uh, leads and opportunities as possible, right. For outbound. Mm-hmm. And makes sure the contact info is good and all of that. Use AI as much as possible and build the systems Yeah.

To help do that.

[01:09:34] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[01:09:34] Nathan: And then in your pipeline, like your metrics, revenue pipeline call.

[01:09:38] Michael: Yeah.

[01:09:38] Nathan: Right. They’re gonna be reporting on how many people did we reach out to?

[01:09:41] Michael: Yeah.

[01:09:41] Nathan: And, and all of that. You just don’t want it to entirely rely on you.

[01:09:44] Michael: Yes.

[01:09:45] Nathan: Because, um, it’s not gonna scale.

[01:09:48] Michael: Yeah.

[01:09:49] Nathan: The follow ups not there.

Mm-hmm.

[01:09:50] Michael: That sort of thing,

[01:09:52] Nathan: but make sure that all of your, everything related to outbound is instrumented Yeah.

[01:09:56] Michael: In the

[01:09:56] Nathan: metrics in these two.

[01:09:57] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[01:09:58] Nathan: And then you can see it and you have [01:10:00] accountability.

[01:10:00] Michael: Yeah.

[01:10:00] Nathan: And you can break it down.

[01:10:01] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[01:10:02] Nathan: Um, and then I would just have the goals be around, okay, how many partners can we onboard?

[01:10:06] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[01:10:07] Nathan: And then we’ll get to the point of how many, uh, webinars or courses are we getting added into? Um, ’cause you’ve proven in the past that this can work.

[01:10:15] Michael: Yeah.

[01:10:16] Nathan: And then I, I’d go back to all the previous partners

[01:10:19] Michael: as

[01:10:19] Nathan: well.

[01:10:20] Michael: Yeah. There’s the thing. So, um. In the past. So in the 2000 tens

[01:10:24] Nathan: Yep.

[01:10:24] Michael: Uh, we, we built lots of goodwill mm-hmm.

In, in the, the whole, you know, kind of productivity space. ’cause we had also a magazine it was called, was called Productive Magazine. Mm-hmm. And it was kind of famous at some point, and then people actually liked writing for it because the, the, the, the distribution was there. So, um, sometimes I even forget that we have some goodwill that we completely forgot, you know?

Yeah. That we left it there and never came back to it.

[01:10:51] Nathan: Yep. Yeah. There, there’s so much of that. And I would just really be thinking about, okay, how can I get as much of my [01:11:00] attention

[01:11:00] Michael: mm-hmm.

[01:11:00] Nathan: And the attention of these 15 people

[01:11:02] Michael: mm-hmm.

[01:11:03] Nathan: Outbound.

[01:11:03] Michael: Outbound. Mm-hmm.

[01:11:04] Nathan: And try to take a step back and look. Okay. If people aren’t in our internal

[01:11:10] Michael: mm-hmm.

[01:11:11] Nathan: They’re not in our own Nas b account, they’re not seeing what’s happening. If I were to just go out of that

[01:11:16] Michael: mm-hmm.

[01:11:16] Nathan: Open an incognito window and go to the marketing website, uhhuh to everything coming outta this business, what’s happening,

[01:11:23] Michael: Uhhuh

[01:11:24] Nathan: and ’cause often there’s not a lot.

[01:11:26] Michael: Yeah.

[01:11:26] Nathan: And so, you know, get outbound in those ways, advertising is not gonna be the answer.

Mm-hmm. Um, because the average revenue per user is too low.

[01:11:35] Michael: Yeah. And the the bidders are, yeah. They have much more money.

[01:11:40] Nathan: The other thing that I would do mm-hmm. I think these true fans are interesting. Mm-hmm. I would go to the, the customers that you have that are the true fans. Mm. And I would say, Hey, who do you follow?

[01:11:53] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[01:11:54] Nathan: For productivity advice. How to run your business better.

[01:11:59] Michael: Ah, or

[01:11:59] Nathan: business advice. That’s [01:12:00] uhhuh business advice.

[01:12:01] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[01:12:01] Nathan: But try like business advice is very broad.

[01:12:03] Michael: Yeah.

[01:12:03] Nathan: You know, business operations. Mm-hmm. Trying to narrow it just a little bit.

[01:12:07] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[01:12:08] Nathan: And then the cool thing is

[01:12:09] Michael: mm-hmm.

[01:12:10] Nathan: Um, it’ll give you, it’ll help you brainstorm and like identify as many of these partners as possible.

[01:12:18] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[01:12:19] Nathan: But then when you reach out,

[01:12:21] Michael: you can say that.

[01:12:22] Nathan: You can say, Hey, so I was talking to one of my customers who runs this really cool construction business

[01:12:27] Michael: mm-hmm.

[01:12:28] Nathan: And I was asking him, Hey, who do you follow on how to run this business better?

[01:12:32] Michael: Uhhuh?

[01:12:32] Nathan: And he said, you

[01:12:34] Michael: Uhhuh.

[01:12:34] Nathan: And you know, and it’s like a little bit of it.

Yeah. Yeah. Like, um, ’cause people always want to hear who their customers are.

[01:12:40] Michael: Yeah. Yeah.

[01:12:41] Nathan: Um, and all of that.

[01:12:42] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[01:12:43] Nathan: So that’s how you can really leverage those true fans. Yeah.

[01:12:47] Michael: That’s a good idea. Mm-hmm.

[01:12:51] Nathan: And there’s a lot of other things that we’ll get to.

[01:12:52] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[01:12:53] Nathan: But maybe just to touch on some final things. Really look at the team.

[01:12:58] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[01:12:59] Nathan: Right. Because we have [01:13:00] constrained resources.

[01:13:00] Michael: Yes.

[01:13:01] Nathan: We’ve got that million dollars a year.

[01:13:02] Michael: Yeah.

[01:13:03] Nathan: And so really make sure, do I have exactly the right team

[01:13:06] Michael: mm-hmm.

[01:13:07] Nathan: To take me to where I need to go.

[01:13:08] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[01:13:09] Nathan: Um, is everyone owning a metric mm-hmm. And directly working on that.

[01:13:14] Michael: Yeah.

[01:13:15] Nathan: Um, and if we’re going all in on partners

[01:13:18] Michael: mm-hmm.

[01:13:19] Nathan: Like how do we,

[01:13:20] Michael: how do

[01:13:20] Nathan: we go make sure that everyone

[01:13:22] Michael: is on board

[01:13:22] Nathan: is driving towards that?

[01:13:23] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[01:13:24] Nathan: Um, because if you were to say, you know, if you were to go from 15 people down to 11

[01:13:29] Michael: mm-hmm.

[01:13:30] Nathan: That would free up more money to be able to pay partners, which would solve our traffic problem.

[01:13:34] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[01:13:34] Nathan: Right. A lot of times when we build companies over a long period of time, we end up with team members

[01:13:40] Michael: Yeah.

[01:13:41] Nathan: That we like, they do good work, but it’s not aligned with,

[01:13:46] Michael: with, with what we want.

[01:13:46] Nathan: Mm-hmm. Like the go to market motion that we chose the

[01:13:48] Michael: business.

Yeah. Yeah.

[01:13:50] Nathan: Um, kind of the last thing as we go touch on partners. You just always looking for who is the person that comes in contact with my ideal customer on a regular [01:14:00] basis.

[01:14:00] Michael: Yeah.

[01:14:01] Nathan: Your product is so broad. I really wanted to find like a niche that we could get to or something else. Yeah. I didn’t find it, but keep looking for it.

’cause it might be there.

[01:14:08] Michael: Mm-hmm.

[01:14:09] Nathan: But then just see is, is there this type of person that is out there?

[01:14:12] Michael: Yeah. Yeah. It’s like with the case study that we mentioned with uh, her, it was like. Such a cool idea that, that, uh, like sh she, she, because of, she’s, she’s a lady, she’s a, you know, business owner, um, a female business owner.

So she attracting, you know,

[01:14:30] Nathan: people like her,

[01:14:30] Michael: people like her, and then they, and then, because you know, women are much better organized than we are guys. So they, for them it’s like, it’s perfect positioning like that. So they, they, they, they, um, and actually it was one of her customers that brought her to nsbe.

’cause, ’cause

[01:14:46] Nathan: Okay, so I mean, that gets back to this true fans

[01:14:48] Michael: idea,

[01:14:48] Nathan: right?

[01:14:49] Michael: Yes, exactly. Exactly.

[01:14:50] Nathan: I love it. Okay. So I think you have quite a to-do list to dive into. Yeah. Um, I just wanna ask like, how do you feel, uh, now after we’ve torn apart

[01:14:59] Michael: your

[01:14:59] Nathan: [01:15:00] business and really delve into it versus when you first came in?

[01:15:03] Michael: No, I feel so much better. I, and I, and you know, when we started with preparing for this, for this podcast and I saw you like, didn’t know from which angle to attack. For me, uh, for me the value was just. To go through this with you.

[01:15:17] Nathan: Yeah.

[01:15:17] Michael: Because then as you have seen, like things start to show up, uh, and then some of the stories I mentioned actually make sense into, into something bigger than, than I thought.

So, um, I like this, I like this approach and, uh, I like my to-do list. So, um, and uh, yeah. After this I have to be able to later, you know, in, in a few months report to you that I’m actually doing my homework. So that’ll be

[01:15:41] Nathan: good. That’s part of it. Well, you can take your to-do list. You can load it up into nasbe.

Yeah. Uh, you can dial in the positioning around Yeah. You know, products mm-hmm. That people actually use.

[01:15:52] Michael: Yeah.

[01:15:52] Nathan: Uh, yeah. And I’d say for anyone following along mm-hmm. You know, if you wanna go check out nos B just nos b.com.

[01:15:57] Michael: Nos b.com NOZB e.com. Yes.

[01:15:59] Nathan: Perfect. Mm-hmm. [01:16:00] And then they can dive in. Implement their business on a productivity tool.

[01:16:04] Michael: Yeah. That their

[01:16:04] Nathan: team will actually use.

[01:16:05] Michael: Exactly.

[01:16:06] Nathan: I love it. Michael, thanks so much for coming on.

[01:16:08] Michael: Thanks, Nathan.

[01:16:09] Nathan: If you enjoyed this episode, go to YouTube and search the Nathan Barry Show. Then hit subscribe and make sure to like the video and drop a comment. I’d love to hear what some of your favorite parts of the video were, and also just who else do you think we should have on the show.

Thank you so much for listening.

[00:00:00] Dan: AI is going to take jobs and it’s taking jobs. AI is gonna change all of our work. If there’s one thing that I want every business leader to do differently, it’s to

[00:00:08] Nathan: My guest. Dan Cumberland is a serial founder with multiple successful exits, now builds human-centered AI systems for creators and entrepreneurs.

[00:00:17] Dan: Here’s the trick. I call this the turnaround. Go back to your chat and then just say, print a prompt. That would allow me to take this whole conversation to another AI chat and start over.

[00:00:27] Nathan: Okay. That’s amazing. His work focuses on helping high earning creators and companies implement workflows that make it so you can actually enjoy your work.

[00:00:35] Dan: Again, what if we could zoom out and see like what is the real work that only I can do? I think we’re underselling ourselves if AI is that big of a threat.

[00:00:43] Nathan: In this episode, we show you exactly where you’re going wrong, how to set up better systems to get precise, accurate output that’s gonna change the way you operate in your business.

[00:00:53] Dan: And it is like rocket fuel and nobody knows about it. Teach Claude how to,

[00:00:58] Nathan: okay. This is a key tip.

[00:00:59] Dan: This is a key tip.

[00:01:00] Nathan: Most people dunno this.

[00:01:00] Dan: Yes. Yeah.

[00:01:02] Nathan: Dan, when we were talking earlier, you said this line that really stood out to me and you said, with ai, I’m able to be the creator that I’ve always wanted to be.

[00:01:10] Tell me about that. What does that mean to you?

[00:01:11] Dan: So I’ve been, you know, creating on the internet since probably similar, similar, you know, starting time, like early World Domination Summits. Yeah. I was there and, you know, just have always been like, it’s, it’s so important to me, but consistency is hard. And where I, where that takes me is like, there’s just friction in the process.

[00:01:29] Mm-hmm. And so when I, what, what I love most about AI is for content creators and for knowledge workers in general, it allows us to take the friction outta the process and, and get faster into the work that matters most to us. And that’s really like, kinda my passion behind all of my, all of my work is like getting people into their zone of genius and doing more of that thing.

[00:01:50] Mm-hmm. And so for me personally, that’s what, what, what it looks like, and most specifically with Kit. Just to describe this workflow. Mm-hmm. I create content, usually the top of my or starting point of my, my, uh, content flywheel is, is LinkedIn. I’m posting on LinkedIn regularly. I take some of those posts and I turn them into broadcasting kit.

[00:02:09] So first I’ll take that post, I’ll maybe beef it up a little bit. I’ll, I’ll use my AI to, to help, help in that process. Really making sure it’s, you know, still on brand, still my voice, but, you know, just, again, making it go faster, easier. But then I have to get into kit and, and click the buttons, copy paste, do the formatting, you know, make the button so it’s links to the thing that I’m linking to and all that stuff.

[00:02:29] And it’s just, it doesn’t take that long. It’s like 15 minutes. But like I find sometimes that like, I don’t, I don’t send my newsletter ’cause I don’t take that 15 minutes ’cause it feels like a hard 15 minutes. So what I’ve done is using a browser automation plugin with Claude. Claude taught itself how to, how to go into my kid account.

[00:02:51] Do all the formatting. It says an AB test in my subject line, formats, my entire email and exactly the way that I want it to be does the button in my brand color, and then it goes to the next page. The scheduling page sets the, uh, preview text and like an internal note about what that subject, that that email, that broadcast is all for me.

[00:03:11] And then I just go into my kid account and it’s just ready. I can just,

[00:03:13] Nathan: you just proof it and it’s end.

[00:03:14] Dan: Yeah.

[00:03:15] Nathan: That’s such a great practical example. And I find that in ai, people are throwing out all of these high level, like it changes everything, but then we’re like, well, what do I actually do? Yes. And so it’s all theoretical, like all theory.

[00:03:27] Yes. Very little practice. Yes. One thing I was so excited to have you on is every time I talk to you, it’s, it’s all like practical implement, like tips to do right now. Yeah. So what we’re gonna cover in the episode, you’ve got three different tips that people should implement right away. You’ve got five practical examples that we’re gonna run through and get into in a lot of detail.

[00:03:46] But the thing that stood out to me most, we talk about. Being the creator that I wanna be, the type of creator

[00:03:52] Dan: Yeah.

[00:03:52] Nathan: That I wanna be. And AI allowing that. It’s about reducing friction, isn’t it?

[00:03:55] Dan: Yes.

[00:03:56] Nathan: How do you, how do you find the friction? Yes. How do you go about reducing friction?

[00:03:59] Dan: Yes, I love it. Yeah. So we, we all, the promise of AI usually has to do with time.

[00:04:03] Like mm-hmm. You know, you can get so much more done. You can have all your, your swarm of agents go do your whole workday for you, so you don’t even have to work. And all of, all of that, you know, it’s hyperbole. When I work with clients, I like to pay attention to, to where they are. It’s not sometimes about literal time, like, where can, where can we buy back your time?

[00:04:19] Mm-hmm. But sometimes what’s more meaningful than literal time is felt time. And that’s marked for me by friction. Like, what are the things in your day that like, I would rather gouge my eyes out than do this task. It might only take me 15, 15 minutes maybe. You know, for me, you know, it’s, it’s loading those things up.

[00:04:35] Clicking a bunch of, clicking a bunch of stuff. Other people might be accounting things, but like, what are the parts of your workday where you’re experiencing that friction? ’cause that friction, I think, has downstream effects, leads to burnout, leads to, you know. All, all just extra stress. How can we streamline those things and get you closer to the work that only you can do?

[00:04:51] Which usually isn’t that friction, usually is the, the stuff on the other side. Mm-hmm. Of it. Uh, so I think it’s a really important indicator.

[00:04:58] Nathan: I love that so much. So, diving into the practical examples, what’s another example of how you’ve implemented AI for a client?

[00:05:05] Dan: Yeah. So let’s, let’s, I’m gonna just go through some of these.

[00:05:07] ’cause there’s this, there’s this chasm right from where we are and all the promise and possibility and the best way to cross that chasm is by seeing how other people have crossed it. Mm-hmm. Because it gives you just real, practical, tactical ideas, even if you’re not doing exactly what they’re doing. So first one client that I had as a podcaster I worked with and ended up working with a lot of, a lot of podcasters, a lot of, lot of content creators in particular, but she had, um, St.

[00:05:32] Rappaport, she’s a fantastic mind brain coach. Specifically. She works with, um, a lot of, a lot of A DHD entrepreneurs, but not, not exclusively. And she has a, a, a solo podcast. She was already scripting her episode. She came to me and she was like, I, I, my top of funnel is, is TikTok. I, right now, I’m like, as far as like how I could use ai, I think like there’s something here that might help.

[00:05:55] Right now I’m chopping up my podcast and putting it on TikTok. Um, but it’s like, it takes a lot of time. Could AI help with that? So we, at first, we dug in, we’re like, okay, like, can we use some tools to like, help with, you know, opus clip and like those kind of things that like take long form content, make short form content.

[00:06:10] I, I built a product, I don’t know if you remember, uh, that did exactly this back before, before, um, Opus clip when I was running a venture studio. Um, so I played that game before. But one of the things that I know about TikTok is that Clips can do well, but content created for TikTok usually does better.

[00:06:26] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:06:26] Dan: She already has this great. This, these great, uh, this great ip, these great thoughts that she’s already articulated. How can we package that, get it back to her in a format that’s better for her, ready for her? Mm-hmm. On TikTok, most of her tiktoks are very short, like 20 seconds or less, just like really, really punchy stuff.

[00:06:44] So what we did was we took her, her content is already, already, like every episode is already in a Google Doc, in Google Drive. It was so, so clean and so, so easy. Then we developed a series of prompts that would take each one of those episodes that’s already her words, and then format them with different hooks, different formats mm-hmm.

[00:07:05] For TikTok into scripts. So scripts fed back to her from her words, in her own words in new formats. So then she could pull up her, uh, script on her phone. Anytime she wants to record and just record each one of her episodes, then turns into 12 TikTok videos. But here’s the thing, she had 500 episodes in the backlog.

[00:07:27] Nathan: Oh, wow.

[00:07:28] Dan: So we built the, so the first thing we did. So you could, you could take that same for everyone listening, take a very similar process. Think about what’s your first, the top of your content flywheel and how, what are the other places that you wanna put that content and how can you intentionally build a prompt?

[00:07:43] And we can talk about this a little bit more later about context and that kind of thing. Context engineering, uh, teach your AI to, to take that and put it exactly into the exact format that you need. So that’s, you know, a takeaway that everyone should be taking from this. Mm-hmm. But then in some cases, you can automate this process.

[00:07:58] And it was so clean for her because she was already doing this, and when she wanted to record her tiktoks, she, you know, would, would pull up a spreadsheet. Have her, have her, um, her scripts there. So we ran this automation, we built it in, in Zapier with just a couple prompts. You could do it without Zapier, just in Claude or chat, GPT.

[00:08:17] Uh, but Zapier can just automate this kind of stuff, and it just powered through all the spreadsheet, you know, 500 times 12. I don’t know about that. Yeah, it’s a lot.

[00:08:26] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:08:27] Dan: Um, and then, so we built all that out and then every time she, you know, now it just watches her folder every time she drops a new, a new, uh, doc trans like script for her podcast into that folder, it, it prints another 12, uh, 12 scripts in her spreadsheet.

[00:08:42] So like, literally she has more content than she’ll ever be able to get to because there’s so, so many of them. So that’s, that’s workflow number one. And, and again, think about where you’re creating and then how can you take that. Use AI in a really intentional and like clean workflow. Workflow design is super important in order to repackage it into the next piece of your content flywheel.

[00:09:06] Nathan: So anyone who listens to this show a lot knows that. I love the theory of constraints, which is all about finding the bottleneck and obsessively fixing

[00:09:14] Dan: Yeah.

[00:09:14] Nathan: That bottleneck.

[00:09:15] Dan: Yes.

[00:09:15] Nathan: And so for most people, if they’re saying, okay, I want to grow on social, I need my bottleneck is ideas. Yes. Of what to create for each of these Instagram or TikTok reels.

[00:09:25] Yeah. And so in this case you said, okay, we took the bottleneck and we just like blew

[00:09:29] Dan: it up.

[00:09:30] Nathan: That is so far from the bottleneck Now, you know, now the bottleneck might be, uh, editing or posting or something else. Yeah. Right. But she can sit down and she could actually record.

[00:09:39] Dan: Mm-hmm.

[00:09:40] Nathan: 10, 15, 20 of these videos.

[00:09:43] Yes. Do it in different backdrops. Different, yes. You know, a bunch of those things and turn it out and have endless ideas.

[00:09:47] Dan: Yes.

[00:09:48] Nathan: What, as you look at her workflow, what’s something else that would come up?

[00:09:53] Dan: Yeah.

[00:09:53] Nathan: Like, we’ve now moved the bottleneck.

[00:09:54] Dan: Yeah. What’s next?

[00:09:55] Nathan: What, what was the next bottleneck? Yes.

[00:09:57] Dan: What, what

[00:09:57] Nathan: came from there?

[00:09:58] Dan: Yeah. Yeah. So the, the two different places I look are one, like her podcast creation process mm-hmm. Or optimization. Yeah. So how is she looking at what’s performing well? How is she getting data from the platforms and then using that to feed the system. This would be a more, as far as like an automation, a much more complex thing to build.

[00:10:14] Mm-hmm. But you could do it manually by just looking and seeing like, okay, these particular formats are what do best for my, you know? Right. For me. And so maybe we need to adjust the prompts so that we have more that are like that. Or like some things like that, that’s where I would look at optimization and, and where the, the next le the next layer could be.

[00:10:33] Nathan: So something that those of us who create content at scale

[00:10:36] Dan: mm-hmm.

[00:10:36] Nathan: Uh, usually don’t do is analyze it well.

[00:10:39] Dan: Yeah.

[00:10:40] Nathan: You know, categorize and then analyze. And so when we were talking earlier, you were asking like, Hey, is there something, if you were to, you know, wave a magic wand or like Yes. What would you want AI to do for you?

[00:10:49] In this example, what I would want is I would want automated analysis of, is this working?

[00:10:55] Dan: Mm-hmm. So

[00:10:56] Nathan: congrats. You can now create 10 times the amount of content Yeah, yeah, yeah. With, you know, the same amount of effort.

[00:11:02] Dan: Yeah.

[00:11:02] Nathan: But like, is it worthwhile?

[00:11:03] Dan: Yes.

[00:11:04] Nathan: And I feel like that’s a problem that AI could solve.

[00:11:07] Mm-hmm. So how would you go about analyzing the social stats? Maybe you do it for your LinkedIn post already. Yes. Yes. To see these categories are working, do more of this, this,

[00:11:16] Dan: that. Oh yeah, man. Um, so I’m, I’m not an expert on TikTok, so I don’t know, I don’t know what the constraints of that platform are.

[00:11:21] Mm-hmm. But like, the first question is where do you, where do you have the data and, and how do you get to it? We talked a little bit about how I’m using Kit, you know, long, long time, long time Kit user love the platform and love how you guys are building it for, for ai. Mm-hmm. Uh, to be AI enabled. Um. So one, one simple.

[00:11:35] This is an aside, I’ll come back to this though, is like, for my broadcast, I want to do this very thing for myself. How do I, how do I make my broadcast better for my mm-hmm. My particular audience? So I connected to the API and had, had Claude pull in all of my, my broadcasts and then run, um, a analysis of them to optimize my headlines.

[00:11:55] My, let’s see, what, what headlines perform best, what words, what my sometimes, um, what sometimes lead to the, to the, to the most opens. Um, and then also like what call to actions do best. So now when I’m creating broadcasts, like it’s all optimized based on that. You don’t have to do that with Claude. Like you could export your content.

[00:12:13] I mean, you don’t have to do the whole API thing. It’s just, it’s fun. Yeah. Yeah. So I did it that way. Um, but I would look, look to something like that with LinkedIn. I do something very similar. Um, LinkedIn’s tricky because they really, they’re, they really have like high walls around their garden, right. And they don’t like you jumping over them or going under them.

[00:12:30] Um, but, so you can, you can tie into some tools that, or go use, use platforms that already do some analytics. Mm-hmm. Fun fact about all of those platforms is that they are all based not in the United States, because if you create a LinkedIn analytics platform, you will get a cease and deist from LinkedIn.

[00:12:47] I know because I created a plugin that, uh, does this for me. So it looks at my, it looks at my content and then just tells me what’s performing well. Um. And I was like, oh, maybe I should turn this into something and sell it to someone. Um, but then got connected to, just as I was starting to explore that someone else who had a platform, um, that just shut down.

[00:13:07] I was like, Hey, why did you shut this down? It seems like such a great idea. I was like, because

[00:13:11] Nathan: we got the season,

[00:13:11] Dan: you got this letter. Um, and so, you know, so I I, I found my way around that though. I shouldn’t be talking about it probably publicly. I wonder

[00:13:18] Nathan: about, like, I could, I speculate on some ideas of like browser automations

[00:13:22] Dan: Yes.

[00:13:23] Or yes, browser automations. Um, or like, you know, use the tools that, that do exist. Yeah. Tap Leo and and shield analytics, those kinds of things. But the idea is like, you just gotta figure out how to get that data right and then use AI to find the patterns in that data.

[00:13:36] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:13:37] Dan: And I like to, you know, crosscheck that with, you know, what’s, what’s doing best?

[00:13:40] And then look at my drafts and like, what is similar? You know, what are the ideas that I have not yet used? Or as I am gonna write new content. Let’s look at what has performed well and how can I make my new content like that other content. You can also do that based on other people’s content. See who’s growing well and use, use AI to help you optimize your content for like the growth patterns that are happening.

[00:14:03] And that’s helped me a lot. I had like, about a month ago, I had like three posts go viral in one week. Did like almost 400,000 impressions, which I didn’t even know was possible. Right on, on LinkedIn. Maybe some people watching are like, you know, Kris Donnelly style and like just crushing it. But I’m, you know, uh, grew my, my, my, my LinkedIn followers by like 4,000, which is a lot for me.

[00:14:22] Yeah, yeah. Um, so like it does work. Doesn’t always work. Mm-hmm. But, um, it moves you in the right direction, prepares you to go, to go viral. So to just zoom out again to system design, you want to think about where, where are the numbers and then how can you feed those numbers back into the system to let it help you.

[00:14:40] Optimize your content.

[00:14:41] Nathan: Mm-hmm. I love that. Okay. I want to go to some quick tips.

[00:14:45] Dan: Yeah.

[00:14:45] Nathan: You had, you had a couple, like, what are the three things that you think that you would most want people to implement or to know about what they can do with ai?

[00:14:53] Dan: Yeah, yeah. Um, so the first thing I, I always think about is, is context.

[00:14:58] Engineering. Mm-hmm. So, and this is like the, the one thing that, like, if there’s one thing that I want every business leader to do differently, it’s to not trust, not trust ai, but, but more, more than that it’s to, it is to not, not rely on AI’s knowledge of you or your business to accomplish your goals. So we talk a lot about prompt engineering and maybe this is, you know, is, is maybe not as, as hypey as it was, you know, maybe six, six months, a year ago.

[00:15:26] Um, because the, the models are getting more sophisticated, so they’re understanding our intent more. But what, where, where we are now, I think is really in the age of, of context, that era of context engineering, to think really intentionally about how you’re giving the AI everything that it needs to know in order to do the thing that you want it to do.

[00:15:44] Mm-hmm. There with every one of my clients. That I work with. And so I work with, um, both in a group setting with, with with coaches, consultants and solopreneurs, people doing 5 million and less where we help them apply AI in their own business with the promise of saving them five to 10 hours a week, um, by the, by the work with the workflows that we build over that 12 week program.

[00:16:03] Or I build it for them, which is big promise. Um, but we all, so the, and the very thing, first thing we start with is that question that you mentioned earlier. Like if you wave your AI magic wand and point at something, what would you, what would you point it at? Um, so both with them as well as where, where I’m working, where we’re in a done for you fashion with bigger companies, five to 50 million are, are usually, um, the, the size of the companies where regardless, it always starts at these five.

[00:16:29] These five core, what I call them, is context documents. And a context document is just a document that says a lot about whatever it is that you need. Um, you could think of it very similar to a prompt, but it often doesn’t have a specific outcome. Mm-hmm. It’s used as a reference into your custom GPTs, your gem, your Gemini gems, your cloud projects, um, et cetera.

[00:16:47] And so those five are rich, robust context about the company or the person. So what the, what the brand is about. Vision, mission, vision, vision, values, um, their why, all of that. The next is the, the, um, their ICP, their, their customer. Who are they trying to reach? What are their, you know, the psychographics, the demographics.

[00:17:07] The next is their a style sheet that teaches the AI exactly how to, to create in that brand’s voice. So really focused on language and the linguistics, even as the specific platform if we’re creating for something very specifically. Um, so like, you know, we write differently on LinkedIn than we, than we script a podcast or something along those lines.

[00:17:27] Um. And then the next one is their product ladder. What do they sell? Who do they sell it to, at what price points? And then the final one is stories. Um, and, and anything else that, well, this will depend on the specific output that we’re after, but that gives more depth to everything that we just mm-hmm.

[00:17:43] Shared before. And so, um, the biggest back to the, the, the mistake is just instead of doing that work and really giving AI everything that it needs in order to, to produce high quality output, we just say, my AI knows me really well. I gave it a PDF of my website and, you know, my, my LinkedIn profile. And like, that’s not, that’s not bad, but it’s, it’s just sloppy.

[00:18:05] Mm-hmm. And so the invitation is, instead have a conversation with AI to help you produce the kind of content. So AI can help you make that, but don’t just throw your content in there and say, I’ve got, I’ve got all the context I need. So use ai. To context engineer the things that you need in order mm-hmm.

[00:18:22] To have a higher quality output.

[00:18:25] Nathan: Something else that, uh, I think I’ve heard you touch on in the past is a mistake really that ties into this is relying on the memory of that individual chat or that tool.

[00:18:35] Dan: Yes.

[00:18:35] Nathan: And so it’s like, you know what I’ve been having going back to the same project Oh yeah. For years.

[00:18:39] Okay. Probably not years. Right. Because Yeah. Yeah. You know, feels like years, but they’re not, you know, for months over and over again. Exactly. And I keep having these same conversations. Yes. And it knows me so well. But then something comes up, like, something that you and I both believe is Claude is remarkably better than checking right now.

[00:18:57] Yes. And six months ago, I don’t know that that was the case.

[00:19:00] Dan: Yeah.

[00:19:00] Nathan: And so if you have this perfect memory in Chad gt mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And then you come along and you’re like, claws, way better. I’m like, oh, but I can’t move out of this. Oh, that’s so good. Because my context is not portable.

[00:19:10] Dan: Yes,

[00:19:10] Nathan: yes. And what you’re saying is.

[00:19:12] Get into these documents. Yes. Now your context is portable.

[00:19:15] Dan: Yes.

[00:19:15] Nathan: And someone comes along like, we’re raving about Claude. And someone’s like, actually Gemini three is pretty great. Yeah. Then we’re like, alright, well let me give it a try. Uhhuh, my context is portable. Yes. I have my five documents. Yes. They’re loaded in.

[00:19:26] Yes. Lemme try the same prompt and both and go. Oh. I do like Gemini for this thing.

[00:19:30] Dan: Uhhuh. Uhhuh, exactly. And so then you can rely on all of them for their, for their strengths.

[00:19:34] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:19:35] Dan: And so by doing that, you can, you know, like you said, you, you become less, you know, I, I call like ai, AI agnostic. You become more AI agnostic, less, less locked into, you know, a subscription especially.

[00:19:45] And that’s, you know, that what’s how going on behind the scenes, you know, I think that like chat, GPT and Chat, GPT and OnlyFans have the same model, right. Subscription based. And so like, how can you, you know, how can we give you the opportunity to, to take your content elsewhere? But even in your specific example, which I love that you brought that up.

[00:20:02] Like, we all have these like long chats we just keep going back to and like, oh yeah, I gotta go do that one thing. And like, I haven’t, like, I don’t know, I haven’t built a project for this or whatever, right? So I just go back to that same one and it just grows longer and longer and over time. There’s a couple things that happen.

[00:20:16] One is context windows, uh, which is like basically how much AI can hold in its memory at one given time. Mm-hmm. Eventually, as a conversation gets longer, you could think of it like there’s a window, your chat is starting at the bottom and eventually it fills up off the top and then it drops off, leaves the window, and so it’ll start for getting things.

[00:20:32] And this happens a lot less now than it did like a year or two ago because the windows have gotten bigger and they’re gonna continue to get bigger. But, so that’s one thing that can happen, especially it’s really long, especially there’s a lot of documents in there, is that you’ll, it’ll start performing less well.

[00:20:44] But then also, especially if it’s a conversation based where you’re covering a lot of different things and not just one specific output’s gonna get a little squirrely on you. And studies have been done about this, that the, the less linear a conversation is, the less predictable the output will be from that chat.

[00:21:02] So here’s the trick. I call this the turnaround. Go back to your chat and listeners, anyone who’s, who’s listening right now, and you, you’re like, oh yeah, I’ve got that one chat. Go back to it and then just say, print a prompt. That would allow me to take this whole conversation to another AI chat and start over.

[00:21:21] And then tell it to, especially, I like to say print it in a code block, A code block formats it. So there’s usually a copy button at the top, so it’s really easy to copy the whole long thing. I also say like, to put in markdown, which is a, a protocol for formatting that’s just cleaner for ai. So that’s just a, a really great trick to be able to take any context and, you know, move it to another chat or turn it into a custom GBT mm-hmm.

[00:21:42] Or something like that. And like we’re talking about this context engineering, using AI to, to using ai, to use ai, using a to shape how you use AI is a great starting place for building these kind of context documents.

[00:21:55] Nathan: Yeah. And even saying, I have, I’ve talked to lots of people who say, you know, I want to create a document like this, interview me.

[00:22:02] Dan: Yeah. Yes.

[00:22:02] Nathan: Until I can Perfect. Create this, right? Yes.

[00:22:04] Dan: That’s exactly

[00:22:05] Nathan: right. And then if you’re using, whether you’re using the voice inside of, uh.

[00:22:09] Dan: J

[00:22:09] Nathan: jt or cla, like directly or you’re using whisper flow. Mm-hmm. So you can talk, it can be like this big thing of like, I now I have to make five documents. Dan said it’s like, it’s actually fairly straightforward.

[00:22:20] You can make them sequentially and go, go from there.

[00:22:23] Dan: Totally. Yes. Yes.

[00:22:24] Nathan: Two random things that made me think of one, it’s wild that like. They invented artificial intelligence, and yet they’re like desperate to keep a $20 a month subscription because we’re like, I don’t know. This is the greatest thing the world has ever seen in Chat gt, but honestly, like Claude’s a little better, and so I’m taking my $20 over there just in the, from like a business perspective, moats, all of that.

[00:22:47] You’re like, that’s wild. The dad wild didn’t succeed in creating. Emote as they spend hundreds of billions of dollars on data

[00:22:53] Dan: science and, and they’re losing money on those subscriptions. Right. And it is, it is a wild, terrifying thing when you look at how these business models are working right now and how our economy is propped up on the success of ai.

[00:23:03] It’s, that’s, that’s for another episode. But, uh,

[00:23:05] Nathan: we’re saying practical, not existential crisis,

[00:23:09] Dan: start sweating.

[00:23:10] Nathan: But there is that you’re like, oh, I just invest in the s and p 500 and all that. And you’re like, yeah, what companies make up that?

[00:23:16] Dan: Exactly. There is like the balanced s and p where it’s, where it’s balanced, not based on, on market cap.

[00:23:22] That might be a better investment right now. Not investment advice,

[00:23:25] Nathan: who knows? Um, but the other thing that I’m thinking about is. How you share information between these windows.

[00:23:33] Dan: Yeah.

[00:23:34] Nathan: Um, and something that I like to do is I will test

[00:23:36] Dan: mm-hmm.

[00:23:37] Nathan: Whether or not my document created the same output.

[00:23:40] Dan: Yes.

[00:23:40] Nathan: So if you say, Hey, print.

[00:23:42] Mm-hmm. Like print a, a prompt, all of this Yeah. The context that would be necessary to start over again. Then you could say, okay, I’m in. Still in chat. GPT.

[00:23:49] Dan: Yeah.

[00:23:49] Nathan: New window. Yes. New context.

[00:23:51] Dan: Yes.

[00:23:52] Nathan: Um, upload that as a project and then try the same prompt in your old conversation. Yes. And that one, see if it’s different.

[00:23:58] Dan: Yes.

[00:23:59] Nathan: Bring the, your content over. Uh, what I would do then is like fresh Claude window.

[00:24:04] Dan: Yeah. Try it there.

[00:24:05] Nathan: Try it there. No context.

[00:24:07] Dan: Yes.

[00:24:07] Nathan: Uh, fresh cloud project.

[00:24:09] Dan: Yes.

[00:24:09] Nathan: Add in the context and try and just look at the differences Uhhuh and see what you notice.

[00:24:13] Dan: A hundred percent. A hundred percent. No, I think that that’s, that’s a great, a great workflow just to like trust.

[00:24:16] Like, which, which, I mean they all have different personalities and that’s like, you know, I think, I know you think about this with, with kit, like Right. You choose your customers. And then you’re, it is like, uh, Marshall McLuhan and like, uh, you know, you shape the media. You, you, you, what is the, the quote You shape the media and the media shapes you.

[00:24:32] Mm-hmm. Right? I think the same is true in product. You, like, you choose your customers and then your customers shape your product. And, and so I think about that a lot with like, who is, who’s chatt for and who’s, who’s cloud for, and like Clouds built as kind of a developer tool, and it’s becoming mm-hmm.

[00:24:45] You know, more and more, you know, user, user friendly, but they’re also leading the way on integrations. MCP servers, which are a lot like APIs, but built, you know, specifically for, for AI to, to access and have like levers and buttons they can push inside other software, which is like mind blowing and so cool.

[00:25:00] But like cloud built that technology and chat pt, you know, they recently hired the head of, of apps from Meta. Mm-hmm. And they have a shopping feed. Like there’s, I feel like there’s like this divergence happening, right? And like, I don’t think that chat chip is gonna go away, but I do think that Claude, in my opinion, is winning the race as far as.

[00:25:19] Like a mo a more functional business tool.

[00:25:22] Nathan: Like pro tools versus consumer.

[00:25:24] Dan: Yes, exactly. Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

[00:25:26] Nathan: Yeah. That makes sense. Yeah. The other thing that I feel like you can tell a lot about a person, um, based on, you know, ask, you know, like, Hey, do you use a different chat for each thing? Or the number of people that I talk to are like, no, I just, AI is one chat to me, Uhhuh.

[00:25:38] And I just continually, so they’re asking, just keep going a research thing and then like, write this for me, Uhhuh and all of this other, and you’re like, huh, okay. You and I are,

[00:25:46] Dan: we’re different.

[00:25:47] Nathan: We’re different. Yes. We’re different. Yes. You’re talking about context. Yeah. Um, we’re kind of jumping around a little bit, but if we like litter in these, these key tips

[00:25:57] Dan: mm-hmm.

[00:25:58] Nathan: Uh, one that I think is really important is that inside of Claude Yeah, you can, yeah. Pull in your Google doc, your, you know, Google doc or your sheet, and it will update that context in real time. Yes. And so I, I think it’s Will Gemini do this as well?

[00:26:13] Dan: Gemini will do it as well. Okay. Which just makes sense ’cause like in the Google.

[00:26:17] Yeah. They better do it if they’re doing anything, shouldn’t they do that?

[00:26:20] Nathan: But basically it means that these aren’t static documents that you create once Exactly. If you go back and update it, or if your other automation puts a new line in the spreadsheet, Uhhuh. That then the Claude, um, project

[00:26:32] Dan: Yes.

[00:26:32] Nathan: Knows about it

[00:26:34] Dan: and can reference that.

[00:26:34] Yes. Yes. So you’re not having to spend as much time going through thinking how, like all the documents we just talked about, like if you have elements of those that are accessible to other team members that are updateable, my product ladder is changing. Like my business is still, is still young. Right. And so I need to go and update that context pretty regularly.

[00:26:49] But same on the icp. Mm-hmm. So you could, at a company level, have these like core context files that are shared amongst many different projects. Mm-hmm. And then someone who owns them, they’ll update them periodically and then all the places where they are, where the, the team is using them. Um, gets updated, which like, we don’t think a lot, uh, I don’t hear a lot of people talking about like, team design around ai.

[00:27:09] Yeah. But I think that’s one of the core principles is like, where is your core context for your company rather than letting your team just like hack it together and like make their, make their own things. I mean, that’s fine and, and good and, and there are learnings that come up that way, but there’s, I think, also a big missed opportunity like saying this is our knowledge base, not even knowledge base.

[00:27:28] ’cause that has different meaning in the AI world. This is our core context that should feed your projects.

[00:27:33] Nathan: Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah. Okay. We’ll dive into more projects in just a second. Yeah. Or like specific examples. Yeah. But what are some of the big mistakes

[00:27:40] Dan: Yes.

[00:27:40] Nathan: That you see people

[00:27:41] Dan: make? Yes, yes. Okay.

[00:27:42] So that they, we, we talked about the, um, relying on, on, on chat, GT’s

[00:27:47] Nathan: a memory,

[00:27:47] Dan: memory, memory function. So that’s, so that’s, um, that’s one. Um, an another is spec, like thinking that these tools are marketing, marketing tools. Mm-hmm. And so in my, in my cohort, which is usually it’s, I’m either doing inside a company with teams in the company, I know you guys have done similar, similar things at, at, at kit.

[00:28:04] Uh, we have someone outside who’s in, you know, you guys work with Jay, who’s fantastic, um, come in and help, help the team, you know, learn how to use these tools. I also have a cohort, so I do that. But I have a cohort where, where business leaders join and usually running small teams or they’re solopreneurs, but it’s a, a bunch of different businesses, which is kind of like a little bit like of mayhem ’cause they’re have different business models in the room.

[00:28:25] But there’s also so much power in seeing how other people are, are using the tools. And my very first session we had a CEO of a, uh, evaluation team, evaluation company. They do m and a evaluations. Um, and I gave a lot of marketing examples throughout that. First we’re just talking about like, you know, basic workflows.

[00:28:42] The outcome of that, that first session is I want people to, to walk away and think, here’s the thing that I’m gonna work on first in my business. And so we got to the end of that and he is like. This is all great, but I’m just gonna give it to my marketing team because like, none of this really impacts me.

[00:28:55] Um, and I was like, that’s exactly what you don’t want to do. Uh, it’s easy to talk about marketing when we talk about AI because we all know what marketing looks like. We know what the output of marketing looks like, what a post looks like, what a, you know, what a podcast sounds like, et cetera. It’s the same for everybody, but when it comes to like, the internal operations is different for everybody.

[00:29:15] So it’s harder, it’s harder to talk about. So one of the mistakes is that people say, well, you know, because that’s how we talk about it. That’s what, you know, that’s all that, it’s all that is good for, and I think it’s a good entry point into the conversation. But I see the real value coming from operations and there’s a handful of teams, so that same, that same individual by the end of the program, he said, we’ve increased our capacity so much that we don’t have to, we don’t have to hire any new team members probably for a couple years.

[00:29:42] Hmm. Based on the workflows that we built in that program. So going from like, this isn’t relevant to me to like. I, I have so much more capacity that like, maybe now he needs to go back to, to marketing. Right? And throw some, some rocket fuel on the, on the marketing flywheel. Uh, which actually we we’re actually working on that, um, with his, with his team.

[00:30:01] Um, similarly, um, I work with, um, Amanda Northcut and her team at Level Upgraders. I know you, you know, Amanda, um, and, you know, brilliant business designer. And so I’ve enabled her team taking her ip, this process that she runs with her clients, helping them build their businesses and helped them, AI enable it.

[00:30:18] So she still has consultants that are working one-on-one with all the people in her programs, but there’s so many pieces along the way where they’re having to, you know, they’re, they’re doing an audit of the whole, whole business where they’re, you know, asking all of these questions and then output of that as a report.

[00:30:31] And there’s a lot of like these, these kind of artifacts that they’re building for their clients. So we’re able to then take what used to take, you know, days if not weeks for them, and they can turn it around in a couple hours. And in her words, she’s running a consultancy on software margins, which is mm-hmm.

[00:30:46] You know, unheard of

[00:30:47] Nathan: much better.

[00:30:48] Dan: Um, so, so, so that is, you know, another, another big mistake is saying that it’s just about marketing, but operations I think is really where the magic happens.

[00:30:57] Nathan: I love that. So what’s the third mistake?

[00:30:59] Dan: Yeah, so the third mistake, there’s a couple different ways that I could articulate it, but, um, it’s really like.

[00:31:03] How you think about, one, your workflow and what, what you’re doing with ai. And then secondly is about your relationship with ai. And so what you, what the, the remedy to this is bringing intention to both. And what I mean by that, lemme talk about both of them individually first, is like everything that we do has a workflow around it.

[00:31:23] And so we’ve all gone into cha PT and said, Hey, write me a LinkedIn post. And then we’ve had that, and I remember, you know, back in 2022 doing this and like, whoa, that’s so cool. And then you do it again. It’s like, wait, that sounds just like that last one, right? That’s not the right, that’s not the, the best process for creating, you know, creating content.

[00:31:44] So instead you’re, you’re treating it like, like a done button. Like you just hit the button and it’s done. Instead, you should treat ai. There’s a couple different metaphors I want to use here, but treat it like a, um, a sous chef. So you, you need to think about what is, how do you prep the ingredients to create the dish so that your sous chef.

[00:32:01] You know, you’re the, you’re the, you’re the restaurant entrepreneur, right? So that your sous chef can come into your restaurant and run your kitchen and cook all the things that you need that, that it needs to cook. So being really intentional about, about your workflow design and at what points you are interjecting AI into that process.

[00:32:17] So again, we can talk about creating content. ’cause that’s the commonality here. Like from ideating to drafting, to refining, to formatting, to posting. Like, there’s many places along that where you could use, have ai and sometimes you could have it do multiple steps, but you’re gonna at least wanna do like a few of those steps.

[00:32:33] And especially like the last like five to 10%. And so, so it’s not just going on, you know, going live and, and looking like you right it with, with, with ai. Um, so thinking really intentionally about. Ai, uh, like the workflow, like AI is very much one, it’s a soft skill. We think of it like a hard skill, but it’s a very soft skill.

[00:32:50] And it also is a, a thinking skill. I thought when I got into this, I’d be teaching people like, you know, technical stuff, but it’s really like, I’m teaching, I’m teaching thinking skills. So that’s, so that’s 1, 1, 1 piece of like how we think about these tools is like a done, a done button instead of a, a, a collaborator or, or a, you know, a, a, a teammate.

[00:33:10] The, the second thing is, like, second way I wanna think about, I, I like to think about it is, you know, uh, another, the other metaphor is AI is a recent grad. They just, they just graduated Harvard. They took every class and got three A’s they got every degree. And today is day one. How do you, how do you help them do their job?

[00:33:30] Um, which goes back to context engineering. Like, and so, so thinking really, really specifically about, how would I take that collaborator, like, AI isn’t isn’t your therapist, it isn’t your buddy. It is, it is a tool, a tool that you need to relate to as if it could do so much, but you have to tell it exactly how to do it.

[00:33:52] Nathan: The analogy that I’ve heard a lot is exactly what you’re saying of if you’re delegating to a brand new employee and you’re like, do this.

[00:33:58] Dan: Yeah.

[00:33:58] Nathan: And you expect it to be done perfectly.

[00:33:59] Dan: Yeah.

[00:34:00] Nathan: But like they have no context. No, they don’t know anything. No. Now the employee will say, I’d love to do that for you, but I don’t know how

[00:34:07] Dan: Uhhuh

[00:34:07] Nathan: the AI will say, no problem.

[00:34:10] You got it.

[00:34:10] Dan: Yes.

[00:34:11] Nathan: And so you have to have that difference of like, okay, if I were to delegate this task to a human. What context and instructions and all of that would I give them in order to make sure it happens successfully?

[00:34:22] Dan: Yes.

[00:34:22] Nathan: And so it’s like you, what you’re, I hear you saying is do that with ai.

[00:34:26] Dan: Yes.

[00:34:26] Nathan: Is that right?

[00:34:26] Dan: Absolutely. And, and a, a piece of it too gets really personal. Like how, if you were working with another person in that particular part of your business, so let’s go back to like, you know, you’re business consultant and you’re delivering a report to a client and you have a team member who’s very capable.

[00:34:43] How much of the process do you trust them to do? Mm-hmm. Like maybe they’re a senior team member, they could do the whole thing, but that’s ’cause you’ve done a lot of reps with them, right? They’re brand new team member. You’re not delivering, you’re not gonna deliver the, the let them own a client deliverable and a client relationship the very first day.

[00:34:59] Right. And so some of it is like really personal on how much are you comfortable with? You know, um, somebody else owning. And, and I find that there’s a very similar parallel, like people who are, who have big teams are much more comfortable a lot having AI do more things for them. Mm-hmm. And so that’s one, the one component and the other component is like, how, how deep is your relationship around that particular workflow?

[00:35:21] Like, how many times have you done this successfully? Um, and make sure that you have good reps in before you, like really lean on it and, and, and send it to the client. Right,

[00:35:29] Nathan: right. The other thing that you said is really splitting it out into separate processes. Yes. I see a lot of people say. Here’s my input.

[00:35:37] Dan: Yeah.

[00:35:37] Nathan: And the finished result is this.

[00:35:39] Dan: Yeah.

[00:35:39] Nathan: And so let’s make one project or one automation that does the whole thing.

[00:35:43] Dan: Yes.

[00:35:44] Nathan: And I, what I hear you doing is chunking it out a hundred percent.

[00:35:47] Dan: So

[00:35:47] Nathan: in the TikTok example, you might have one that is just about pulling the moments. Yes. And storing all of these moments or, or, uh.

[00:35:56] Key stories, insights,

[00:35:57] Dan: mm-hmm.

[00:35:58] Nathan: In the podcast. Mm-hmm. And then you have a library of those.

[00:36:01] Dan: Yes.

[00:36:01] Nathan: And then you have the next step that is about taking those and writing them. That’s

[00:36:05] Dan: exactly right.

[00:36:05] Nathan: In hooks.

[00:36:06] Dan: That’s exactly right. Yes.

[00:36:07] Nathan: Keep going.

[00:36:07] Dan: Yes. Yeah. Another example that I’ve done, I’m, I’m doing for clients right now is around AI search and, um, and organic search.

[00:36:15] You know, traditional, traditional search. I hate that we, we have to talk about that. It takes so many words to say that right now. Like, we need just, can we just call it search from now on? It’s both things. Um, but this, this really intentional process to take, uh, take clients, do a technical analysis of their site, recommend improvements that either their content team development or if we, if they ha have the capabilities we can hook it up to, to AI and have AI implement some of these to get, get it positioned for, for search, um, for search rankings and for, and for mentions in, in search, but then also looking at their keywords and then designing this.

[00:36:52] Process to draft mm-hmm. A post. And it’s an eight step process as it stands right now of, at least for, for one, one of my clients. Um, that goes from keyword research, looking at the competitors, looking what they’re ranking for, their content around each of those, each of those, those words. Uh, writing a a as much like you would, you would work with a team of writers, a, a writer’s brief of what that article needs to be about, a rough draft, a fact check where it goes and looks at the definitions of all the terms.

[00:37:23] Mm-hmm. And make sure that it’s a hundred percent accurate, so there’s no hallucinations included. Then there’s like a humanization step where. Looks at it from like a story arc perspective, and then there’s a formatting step. We’re looking at the opening and the close in particular. And then there’s an ai, um, optimization step where it formats and adds in any extra elements as far as, as, you know, q and a ai, AI loves q and as, you know, FAQs right now and all of those.

[00:37:47] So that’s just another example of like how you can take what, what feels like, yeah, just, just write a blog post for me. Ai, um, like. And, and you can break it into steps. And by breaking it into those steps, you greatly improve the quality of the output. Mm-hmm. Because you’re giving AI just one thing, one job to do at a time.

[00:38:07] And it can do that job really, really well. Better than probably you could, right? Mm-hmm. And then it hands it off to another with a really specific job to create a full workflow.

[00:38:17] Nathan: Well, it’s like asking ai, you know, write an article about this with, uh, historical examples that is really fun and engaging to read.

[00:38:24] Dan: Yes, yes.

[00:38:25] Nathan: And so it’s gonna be like, okay, and it’s gonna do that, and then you’re gonna read it and you’re like, I don’t think this is true. Yes. I said historical examples. Yes. And it’s gonna say, yeah. But you said fun and engaging to read. Yes. So I, you know,

[00:38:35] Dan: yes.

[00:38:36] Nathan: Like I was trying to balance all of this. I couldn’t do it all.

[00:38:38] Dan: Yes.

[00:38:39] Nathan: But then a separate pro project that says. Like, uh, you know, whatever prompt you’re giving, like this is most likely wrong. Find all of the mistakes in this Uhhuh Uhhuh AI will be like, oh, I can exactly find it. Like, you’re making up this. Yes, this isn’t true.

[00:38:53] Dan: Yes,

[00:38:54] Nathan: yes. Um, one that I love is I’ll just say, Hey, point out all the logical fallacies that I made in this essay, or the, like, leaps that I made without, um, enough data or examples or whatever else.

[00:39:06] Yes, I

[00:39:06] Dan: love that.

[00:39:06] Nathan: And it’ll say, you know, okay, well right here, tear

[00:39:09] Dan: you apart.

[00:39:10] Nathan: You know, you gave one little anecdote that happened in your life and then you extrapolated out to then be this whole thing that now is like a physics level principle uhhuh that you’re telling the reader they should believe anyway.

[00:39:21] Yeah. Oh yeah, I guess I did. You know, and it’s,

[00:39:24] Dan: yeah. My conversation with my 10-year-old turned into a life principle. Right? Like, what? It’s just one thing, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yes.

[00:39:29] Nathan: And so it’s so good at that. Yeah. And so break, like, I think that is a very key principle Yes. In AI design. Yes. Is break up the tasks, break and give them one job to be

[00:39:37] Dan: done.

[00:39:37] Yes. Yes. And what I find is the better the output and then the better the output, the better the impact. And I was telling you about how when I first started experimenting with this AI content, I, I published 193 articles in one day, um, on my site back in January. And it is five x to traffic. And, uh, within the last 12 months, we’ve had had 12 million impressions on Wow.

[00:39:58] On, on organic search, which is just nuts. So like, and I was like, I don’t know, this might ruin my sight, but because I built who out you gambling. And that’s why I did it on myself. Right. I’m like, I’m gonna do it myself and see how it does. And like, okay, this, this works. And so that’s why I’m, you know, that’s why I’m doing it, you know, for, for clients now.

[00:40:13] Uh, but you gotta, you gotta be the, gotta be the Guinea pig to go first, right? But that’s what I find is that the. The more intentionality you bring to the workflow design, the better the output, whether that output is for the algorithms or for human consumption.

[00:40:26] Nathan: Hmm. That’s important. Okay. So we talked about breaking all these steps up.

[00:40:29] Yeah. How do you string them together? Yes. In an automated way. Yes. Because the last thing that we want to do is get to the point where it’s like, congratulations, you automated all the fun work.

[00:40:38] Dan: Yeah.

[00:40:38] Nathan: And now your job is to take the, the ticket between the different ais. Oh my gosh. Which I know so many people that do that.

[00:40:46] Yeah. They’re like, have an idea and they stick it into one machine, they get it back out and they’re like, stick it into this. Yes. And they’re like, and now I’m gonna type like, paste it a kit.

[00:40:54] Dan: Yes.

[00:40:54] Nathan: And so how do you avoid being the person from office space who says, I don’t know. I, I take the thing from here down to there.

[00:41:01] Dan: Yes. Yes. Well, I wanna hear, I wanna hear your thoughts on this because I know there’s a lot of different ways that we can do this. Mm-hmm. And right before we were recording, we were talking, we were talking about how there’s different features in chat, DPT, uh, on desktop versus versus mobile, versus Okay,

[00:41:12] Nathan: this is a key tip.

[00:41:13] Dan: This is a key. We

[00:41:13] Nathan: dunno

[00:41:14] Dan: this. Yes. Yes. On desktop and only on desktop at this moment, which might be deprecated in next week. You can call agents into the chat with the at sign. So you could have an agent for each step of your workflow, and you could work on it all in one chat. You ideate maybe with an ideation, uh, interview agent who asks you a bunch of ideas and then you’re like, okay, that’s a great one.

[00:41:36] And now at my drafting agent turns that ideas into a piece of content. Then at my hook agent, let’s make this really like hook worthy at the beginning at my call to action agent. Let’s make this like a really solid call to action at the end. And so you can string all these together in one pane. So that’s, that’s one way.

[00:41:52] Okay. You can also do it. Um, similarly in Claude with Skills and Skills is a pretty new, a pretty new feature as of this recording and it is like. Rocket fuel, and nobody knows about it. Uh, people do know about it, but you can teach Claude how to do things. And so what’s cool about this is that you can, by introducing a skill, you can introduce again to, you can just use that content example, like teach Claude how to format your hooks and even how even your process for writing hooks.

[00:42:19] Like every time I, I’m working on a hook, give me 10 and use these templates or et cetera. So it’s all built in much like you would build a custom GPT or a project or something like that, except it just runs in the background. And then Claude just knows every time you talk about hooks. This is how we’re doing it.

[00:42:34] Mm-hmm. And so you can, um, build it so that every time, every step of that process, it knows what to do. You can also build in slash commands. And I had this viral post, I think I talked about the viral post earlier, about slash commands and chatt bt, which was, it’s, it’s a, a, a fun party trick that you can type slash and then a bunch of different words and, and chat.

[00:42:53] GPT will infer your meaning, and it’s like a shortcut for like prompting. But in Claude, you can actually build up, you can also build those into your custom gpt. If you’re building custom gpt, you’re building a prompt. I highly encourage you to think about how, like the different steps that you would want in that prompt and put a slash command next to them so you don’t have to.

[00:43:12] Like write it all out every single, every single time. Okay. I was talking about my, just, this is a super nerdy fitness example. I was talking about my, my fitness, um, Gemini gem that I, that I use to optimize my CrossFit workout. So I get the little extra that I do after the CrossFit workout, but uh, I upload a photo and then I just say slash add, and then it knows, look at the photo, look at my workout log, look at my training goals, and then tell me what else to add today at the end of my workout.

[00:43:40] So then I’m not standing here at the gym having like, okay, I just completed this workout and it had blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And now look at, you know, all it, it’s just a much faster way to do that so you can build those into your prompts. In Chatt BD that’s a cool trick. But as far as workflows, again, with Claude, you can build slash commands into Claude so that, um, it always knows what to do no matter what project you’re in.

[00:44:02] Mm-hmm. So you can just say slash books slash publish to kit, you know, whatever, whatever you want it to do.

[00:44:08] Nathan: Mm-hmm. Okay. That’s amazing. What about like, I still wanna dive deeper into this, tying things together.

[00:44:13] Dan: Yeah.

[00:44:14] Nathan: Because. That’s still relying on me as a person Okay. To do it.

[00:44:18] Dan: Okay.

[00:44:19] Nathan: Are, and this is something that I haven’t solved yet.

[00:44:21] Dan: Okay. Well, I can solve this for you.

[00:44:22] Nathan: Okay. Let’s absolutely do this deep dive. Okay. We’ll do it for just two minutes. Okay. And then we’ll dive into four more examples that are really practical and like, broadly applicable.

[00:44:30] Dan: Love it. Love it. Yes. Okay. So, uh, I know that you’re familiar with Cursor. Mm-hmm. Uh, cursor is an IDE, which is independent development environment.

[00:44:39] I define that for the, for the, for the listeners so that you can know what, what you’re looking for when you’re searching for things. It’s a developer tool. The way that it works, you can think of a window with three panes. Left side is your files center is your canvas. Right side is your ai. You can, you can arrange it any way you want.

[00:44:54] Yeah. But that’s the typical arrangement. So one way that you can do this is using a tool like this where you have your canvas. These are built for developers, write code, but you can also use them for as non coders. And this is, this is, you know, one of, one of my superpowers, one of my, my, uh, my secret secret hacks.

[00:45:10] Um, using these tools for everything, I run my entire business from cloud code in an IDE. And so what that means is as I’m working on a piece of copy, um, or a a a a report or like whatever it is. I had this canvas and AI can write to that canvas. I can write on that canvas, I can select portions of that and tell AI to change that piece.

[00:45:30] Mm. And so you’re not having to do all the copy and pasting until you’re ready to copy and paste.

[00:45:35] Nathan: Right.

[00:45:35] Dan: There are other ways around that with MCPS and things like that. Um, so that’s, that’s the technical, you know, cloud code and or, um, in IDE is, is a really great way to do that. You can also connect your cloud in particular, and you can tell me if you know more about the other, the other ecosystems, but to what’s called cps, which is a way to connect data between, send data between AI and apps, but also it can do things in those apps.

[00:46:00] And this is a little bit more technical, but, but Claude is making this easier and easier. So I could. Send, not just pull information, but also push information mm-hmm. To the place where I want to push it, which is super powerful.

[00:46:13] Nathan: Yeah. So CPS are, are very, very important for anyone who doesn’t know, an MCP is stands for model context protocol and uh, like KIT has an MCP server, a bunch of these, there’s more and more coming out all the time.

[00:46:24] Zapier will go make an MCP server for tools that don’t have them.

[00:46:28] Dan: Yes, yes.

[00:46:28] Nathan: There’s all of this. And so it’s very valuable, uh, what you’re talking about with. Using Claude Code or using Cursor in this way? Yes. Yes. Right. In part in particular, um, I know a few people that do this.

[00:46:40] Dan: Mm-hmm.

[00:46:41] Nathan: Um, where I think it’s Amir from Humble Lytics is, uh, has some great videos on this Uhhuh where he’s like, I run the operations of my business Yes.

[00:46:50] Out of cursor.

[00:46:50] Dan: Yes.

[00:46:51] Nathan: And I have files about accounting. Yes. And I have files, you know? Yes. Like taxes, bookkeeping. Yes. All of these. That’s exactly

[00:46:57] Dan: right. These

[00:46:58] Nathan: processes, yes. Are all right there. Yes. It connects to the QuickBooks MCP servers. And so he’s like, I know it’s a developer tool, Uhhuh, but I am using Cursor for ops.

[00:47:08] Dan: Yes, exactly. And like I’m, I’m using it, I have lead scoring in my kit account mm-hmm. That fires emails into my, um, into my, my my Gmail account that says, Hey, this person has clicked on a bunch of things. You wanna send ’em an email? And so then I, along with that email, it populates what they have clicked on most recently, and I have an, uh, a command in Windsurf, which is like Cursors and IDE or I can do it in Claude.

[00:47:31] Mm-hmm. Um, that will look at my email, find those, and then write them an email based on what they’ve just clicked on from my email account to them to say, Hey, I saw you’re looking at, you know, the cohort you’re looking at, uh, your, you know what, whatever it might be. Right. Do you have any questions?

[00:47:49] Nathan: You could load up 25 drafts in Gmail.

[00:47:51] Dan: Yes.

[00:47:52] Nathan: And you could look at them and be like, oh, I actually know this person. Let me add a, a little detail. Like, Hey, congrats on getting married. Exactly. I also noticed that you exactly know whatever thing is Yes. Or you could just have it. Yes. You know, you ow it and just send

[00:48:02] all

[00:48:02] Dan: those, sometimes, sometimes I do that, but, but the more human thing to do is Yes.

[00:48:06] Uh, to make it, to make it personal. But I give that as an illustration of like, you can connect these with cps. You can connect tools to do all kinds of stuff. Yeah.

[00:48:13] Nathan: I love that. Okay. We promised that we’d get into a few more examples.

[00:48:15] Dan: Yes. Okay.

[00:48:16] Nathan: Uh, what’s the next example that you wanna share?

[00:48:17] Dan: Yeah. Yeah. Okay.

[00:48:18] So just examples of like, great workflows again, like how do we cross the chasm between. The AI promise of, you know, not working anymore and like where we are right now, where’s, like, I’ve got Chachi pt, but I don’t know what to do. Um, there’s, there’s a, a, a handful, a handful that I think are really powerful.

[00:48:34] We’ve talked about like content, you know, content flywheel. Um, another just really, really great one is kind of goes back to like thinking about your workflow, but is especially around an idea capture system. Okay. Everyone should have an idea capture system. I know you’ve talked about this on the show before about, uh, and it, so it starts with like.

[00:48:49] Where, what, where is the content being created? And, and my, my premise with everybody that I work with around this is that we are Scrooge Mc ducking in content gold. And we’re totally blind to it. And that takes me back to my childhood watching Ducktails and Scrooge Mc Ducks swimming in the money. Right?

[00:49:08] But we’re just totally blind to it. We’re creating content all the time. But then we go and sit down at our computer and we look at a blink blinking cursor. We open up LinkedIn. We’re like, oh, what am I, what am I gonna post today? Like, you should never have to do that. And so the, the, the invitation here is to think about where are you already creating?

[00:49:24] What meetings are you having? What calls are you taking, what conversations are you having with your team, with clients, with prospects? And then how can you capture those usually with a call recorder.

[00:49:33] Nathan: Yep.

[00:49:34] Dan: And really easy workflow around this. Uh, would be put all your call recorders. Your, your, your notes.

[00:49:39] Put it somewhere where it’s accessible to your, to your, your ai. You can connect, you know, get them into Google Drive. You can connect your Google Drive with the connector, both on chat, GPT and on Claude. That’s a pretty low, uh, low hanging fruit in, in that regard. But then you can go beyond that of like, how else are you, you know, creating, creating content.

[00:49:56] How, when, when, when you have ideas, where do you put them? Where do you collect articles? Um, I know you’re a big fan of Whisper Flow. I am as well. A week ago I ran an update on my computer and my mic stopped working and I felt like I couldn’t use my computer. I was so mad. Like, I can’t, I can’t work. You’re not

[00:50:13] Nathan: gonna make me type.

[00:50:14] Ah, sorry.

[00:50:16] Dan: Um, so, so like, I cut that fix. It took way too long. Yeah. Um, but like, whisper Flow has like the flow notes, which is just super cool. It’s just, you hit the record button for people listening. You can have it. This app on your phone where you just record and then it just makes a note, uh, transcribes your voice into a note and it’s really easy to then connect that, you know, pull that in whenever you’re gonna go create content.

[00:50:36] Mm-hmm. Grab these notes that you just recorded, copy paste into your, into the place you want to, to put ’em.

[00:50:40] Nathan: Two things. One on whisper flow on my phone, I added the shortcut to my, um, uh, control panel.

[00:50:46] Dan: Oh.

[00:50:46] Nathan: So that the note is created from there.

[00:50:48] Dan: Oh,

[00:50:48] Nathan: Brian, just make it just a tiny easier, easier

[00:50:50] Dan: Yes.

[00:50:51] Nathan: To create the note.

[00:50:52] Um, yeah. And, but the other thing is, one thing I realized I haven’t fixed yet. Is Whisper Flow doesn’t connect to anything else.

[00:50:59] Dan: I know. Yes.

[00:50:59] Nathan: So is this

[00:51:00] Dan: Yes.

[00:51:00] Nathan: Is there a way to solve it or,

[00:51:01] Dan: uh, I, I have not solved it with Whisper Flow. Okay. I use a tool called Audio Pen, which was like a predecessor to whisper flow speci specifically for notes.

[00:51:08] Yeah. And so it’s not as like universal everywhere, but it, it, you can record a note and then tag it, and then you can connect those tags as Zapier. I’m

[00:51:17] Nathan: sure by the time we release this episode

[00:51:18] Dan: it’ll be solved. Yeah. Whisper, flip. You’re listening. Put this in there. Yeah. They, they’re like, they’ll get there soon, I’m sure.

[00:51:23] Nathan: Yep. That makes sense.

[00:51:24] Dan: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:51:25] Nathan: Um, so capturing as many ideas, capture the

[00:51:26] Dan: system Yes, yes.

[00:51:27] Nathan: As possible. So then, okay. If we’re, we’re using, you know, fathom or Grain or something like that. Yeah. By default, all those notes are going in a place that you could look at it, but yeah, it’s not accessible. Yes.

[00:51:38] So you’re saying get that into, uh, a Google Drive folder? Yes. Yes. Where are we putting it?

[00:51:43] Dan: Yeah, I would, I’d recommend Google Drive. Mm-hmm. Um, that’s just because it’s easy to connect that to all, to all the places. Um, if you’re, you know, using a, a different system, like, you know, we’re talking about IDs and, and, and cloud code.

[00:51:55] I like to actually get them in text files onto my computer, because then I can batch process them and do different things like that. Yeah. But that’s like, that’s like, you know, the level, level, a couple levels up level above

[00:52:03] Nathan: that.

[00:52:03] Dan: Uh, but yeah, Google drive’s a great place to start

[00:52:05] Nathan: and so then we would be having a, uh, cloud project.

[00:52:10] Dan: Yep.

[00:52:10] Nathan: That is looking in this meetings folder. Yeah. And then analyzing it for, well, let’s say in your newsletter you always recommend three products.

[00:52:17] Dan: Yeah.

[00:52:18] Nathan: And you’re like, I out of. Products to recommend. Yes,

[00:52:21] Dan: totally.

[00:52:21] Nathan: And so it’s say, Hey, go through my meeting notes for every meeting that I have, and anytime someone mentions a product

[00:52:27] Dan: Yep.

[00:52:27] Nathan: Like add that to the spreadsheet Yes. With the reference back to the

[00:52:31] Dan: context. Yes, yes, yes. And that, I mean, that’d be a little bit more advanced, right? Because I don’t know that cloud can do that outta the box, because you can put files into context. I don’t know if you can put folders into context, but if you, you know, so that’s, that’s one thing as far as like a persistent context, but you can call files into the chat.

[00:52:48] So you could say, you know, you know, at, you know, your last three meetings and say,

[00:52:53] Nathan: right,

[00:52:53] Dan: pull, pull content out of the, out of these. Mm-hmm. Um, and then also the push function would be like needing, needing an MCP to, to do that. The push function. Right. It’s totally possible you can do that. I do that. Um, but it’s a little bit, you know, again, yeah.

[00:53:06] Maybe that’s level two

[00:53:07] Nathan: or that might be where we need to pull in Zapier in order to Yeah.

[00:53:09] Dan: Yes.

[00:53:10] Nathan: Uh. To run some of this.

[00:53:12] Dan: Yes, exactly.

[00:53:13] Nathan: Yeah, exactly. That makes sense.

[00:53:14] Dan: Yeah.

[00:53:14] Nathan: And so then you, you could be mining your meetings for these different content topics and

[00:53:19] Dan: Yeah,

[00:53:19] Nathan: exactly. And going from there.

[00:53:20] Dan: Yeah, that’s right.

[00:53:21] Nathan: It reminds me of Dan Martell. Something that he says is, he’s like, do not create. And I’m like, what? And he goes, that’s

[00:53:28] Dan: my whole business.

[00:53:29] Nathan: Yeah. And he says, document,

[00:53:30] Dan: ah,

[00:53:31] Nathan: don’t create. That’s good documents. Oh,

[00:53:32] Dan: that’s so good.

[00:53:33] Nathan: And so what his whole approach was, he’s like, look, I’m running businesses. I’m doing all these things.

[00:53:37] I’m on meetings. And the approach that he took is he has his webcam in front of him for the meeting, and it’s a nice DSR or whatever. Yeah. But then he has a separate camera that he set up at a different angle that runs at the exact same time. And he had his editors go through. And so every coaching call that he’s on, every single thing that he’s doing.

[00:53:57] He has editors go through and say, Hey, what moments did I Oh,

[00:53:59] Dan: that’s great.

[00:54:00] Nathan: Create Like, when did I, a client said something and I was like, oh. And I like got on a high horse and like

[00:54:05] Dan: Yes.

[00:54:06] Nathan: Like delivered it with energy and passion. I was like, you can do this or whatever. He’s like, now I have this in two angles.

[00:54:11] Dan: Yeah.

[00:54:11] Nathan: And we’re gonna cut out all the other aspects of it and we’re going to just use, use that. And so I didn’t create content. That’s

[00:54:19] Dan: wild.

[00:54:19] Nathan: I just documented the thing I’m doing. Yes, yes. Same thing of like having a content team or a, a videographer come with you on a trip or something like, like I was doing it anyway.

[00:54:27] Dan: Yes. We’re gonna Gary v this thing.

[00:54:29] Nathan: Right? Yeah, exactly. And so your example is from a writing perspective mm-hmm. Of like, I’m gonna Gary v this thing. Yes. But just from my meeting notes,

[00:54:37] Dan: Uhhuh. Totally, totally. Yeah. I love that. And I think that especially with the video stuff, like tools like Dscr are just like, their under lurd is like insane.

[00:54:44] Like it’s, we’re we’re months away from being able for that like that, which sounds mind blowing to me to have multiple angles and then having a content team, like we’re, I’m pretty sure Dscr will be able to get us there. Yeah. Very soon. If it’s not already there. I’m not like a dscr power user.

[00:54:58] Nathan: Yeah. I love that.

[00:54:59] Okay, well, diving in. Yes. Uh, what is the next example that you wanna share?

[00:55:02] Dan: Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So just other just great examples where I’ve seen just tons of value added is using AI as a sounding board, especially, especially for, for coaches, also anyone managing someone, um, to be able to use it as a mirror.

[00:55:15] And I think AI is a mirror in so many different ways, like that reflects back to us, can reflect back to us about really like what it means to be human. Like. That’s kind kind of from my, my background as a, you know, started my career in ministry. I have a degree in, in theology and psychology. Like I, I bring this human lens to all of this.

[00:55:30] And so it’s really fascinating to see how it’s forcing us to draw these lines or at least think about these lines, like where, where is the line between human and and machine. But in, in addition to that, it can also be such a good sounding board or me back to us, um, our, our own work, um, our, our work with clients, our work with, with our, our team members.

[00:55:51] Um, one friend of ours who, um, I won’t, I won’t name him ’cause the example I’m about to share, but he’s been on this podcast, um, is a, a household name and a, and a, a coach. He was given this example of, of how he uses it in his. In his coaching practice, and he was, um, working with the client and, um, had a great session all about goal setting and, and, and all of this wrapped it up and felt good about it.

[00:56:12] And then, um, one of his practices he takes is takes the, the transcript and runs it through, um, through an AI prompt just to like, help him think about, you know, what, what else did I miss? Like what mm-hmm. What, what I think the question that he often asks is like, what was unsaid or what might, might I have ha had not have picked up on?

[00:56:29] And as we were talking about goal setting, this client mentioned something about, about her brother and, and like, it was clear there was like some pain there, but, um, but she, but she’s like, kind of, you know, brushed it off, right? And then they, but he was like, well, we’re gonna work on getting these goals done.

[00:56:45] Um, he’s much better than that.

[00:56:48] Nathan: Yeah. But I didn’t name him so,

[00:56:50] Dan: because I could say however I want. Um, but then in the next session he start, he, he realized like, oh, there’s like a major oversight. Like there’s, there probably, there could be a really big unlock here because like how much. Our own limitations, you know, come from our, our background, our, our personal lives and, and these kinds of things.

[00:57:05] And so he started the session, was like, Hey, I wanna apologize. I think I might have missed something in our last session. As I was reviewing our transcript, I realized that you mentioned your brother and didn’t, you know, we, I didn’t, I didn’t ask more and didn’t invite more curiosity around that. And it led to this really productive conversation that took her places that she, I think, really needed to go, but hadn’t had someone there to, to coach her into it.

[00:57:29] So I get that as just like one, maybe, you know, more poignant example, right? Like this overall concept of like, AI can really help you not miss the good stuff, right? That sometimes we, we miss because we’re focused on, focused on other things.

[00:57:39] Nathan: Well, I love that because there’s the idea that the more we use ai, the less human we’ll be.

[00:57:43] Dan: Yeah.

[00:57:44] Nathan: And so that’s such an example of like, there was a, a key moment of human connection. Oh

[00:57:49] Dan: man.

[00:57:49] Nathan: And emotional unlock and all of these things that came from the AI going, um.

[00:57:55] Dan: Excuse me.

[00:57:56] Nathan: Mind if I interject for a second? I think you missed something there.

[00:57:59] Dan: Can I, can I just get on a soapbox about this for a second?

[00:58:01] Like, does AI, because, because I get it, like, it feels like, and again, I just mentioned my background, like I have a degree, a master’s degree in theology, in psychology, and I’m teaching people how to use ai. Like, can these things be more, be more different? Uh, and, and it feels like there are opposite sides of the spectrum.

[00:58:16] Um, but like the more, the more we lean into this, I really believe that ai, it can, right? It can, we can use AI to blast junk content into the internet and spam and spam the whole world. And some people are like, you know, so anti AI because of that. But like, who’s doing that? It’s not the ai it’s the user, right?

[00:58:36] And so like, yeah, it can drive us to like these non-human inhuman, um, uh, practices and things. And like, I don’t want to like put aside like job displacement and like all those things. All those things are, are real. But for creators and for. For knowledge workers, like, even though where we started this episode talking about like, about friction.

[00:58:56] Mm-hmm. Like, AI is such an opportunity to get closer to the meaning behind what we’re doing.

[00:59:03] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:59:03] Dan: Get there faster with less friction to lean in deeper because we can offload a lot of the other noise and the cruft that can, um, that can get in the way. And I think of this like, in some ways, like, it gets me so excited because I think about like, in some ways it feels like a return to meaning, even though it was like, what my AI’s gonna, it’s gonna make us into a robot a return to meaning that I think like, in some ways I think started like the industrial revolution, like putting people into a machine where like you’re, you’re just a cog in a wheel, in an assembly line.

[00:59:35] And like, sometimes it feels like that in my workday, where like I just have to click on these things and push these things here and, and do all these things that like a robot could do. So then if a robot can do it. Is it really my job? Mm-hmm. You know, uh, and I know you’ve thought about this too, like that like, yeah, ai AI is going to take jobs and it’s taking jobs.

[00:59:52] Um, AI’s gonna change all of our work, but if we’re, have the, if we’re at a, at a privilege enough to, to have choice over what we’re doing, and if we’re, you know, working in the realms of ideas and knowledge, then I say, you know, give, give ahead the job. ’cause that’s probably not your job anyways. Right. It probably never was where the real meaning is.

[01:00:09] And so, while my career feels like it’s like these things, I think it’s actually a circle and back around these two things that felt so far apart are actually like right next to each other one. What last thought on that, just on the Industrial Revolution thing, is there’s this quote, I think it’s from, from Henry Ford about, about, you know, when he’s building the, the, uh, assembly lines.

[01:00:30] It’s like the, the problem with workers is that they come with a brain attached. Like that’s literally the words. Mm-hmm. And like to say, like, I. AI is an invitation to, like, we don’t have to just do the things like we don’t have a brain and instead can use our brains to do bigger and better things.

[01:00:48] Nathan: Yeah.

[01:00:48] And it frees up so much to have more output and so much more, uh, I love it. One example on ’cause job displacement is, uh, it, it’s going to be a big issue.

[01:01:00] Dan: Yeah.

[01:01:00] Nathan: You know, there’s more and more companies that we talk to, um, where they’re just like, we don’t have the same hiring plan that we did before. We don’t have, like, we don’t need to, um, do all of this.

[01:01:10] And so I’m always thinking like, is this a good thing?

[01:01:12] Dan: Yeah.

[01:01:13] Nathan: And a story that I, I don’t know if it’s real or not, but a story that I heard was, uh, you know, two people watching a construction site.

[01:01:19] Dan: Mm.

[01:01:19] Nathan: And, uh, this excavator comes in and digs all of that and it’s one person. Yeah. And uh, you know, someone goes, you know, we used to have 10 people do that with shovels.

[01:01:30] Yeah. And like those jobs are gone.

[01:01:31] Dan: Yeah.

[01:01:32] Nathan: And the first person goes. It’s true. We give those 10, like we give them spoons instead of shovels, and then it take a hundred people and you realize like, oh, like those are just jo, you know, like,

[01:01:45] Dan: yes.

[01:01:46] Nathan: Like yes. We are now able to create so much more, you know, all this stuff.

[01:01:50] Because the idea, yeah. I just always think of what are the things right now that we’re like digging with a spoon? Oh, you know, that equivalent? You’re, you such, you could have a shovel, such a analogy or analogy, an excavator.

[01:01:59] Dan: Yes.

[01:01:59] Nathan: And like go bigger and bigger. So yes, so good. The a hundred people with spoons are no longer needed.

[01:02:05] Uhhuh. The 10 people’s shovels Yes. Are no longer needed. So what are you gonna do with that

[01:02:09] Dan: time? Yes. Yes. And I was thinking about like the, it was very similar. Um, just that idea, like, what, what are you gonna do at that time? And it’s easy to feel like, but that was my job, like mm-hmm. I was a designer. And I made logos for clients.

[01:02:22] Nathan: Right.

[01:02:22] Dan: And now Cha g PT can do that.

[01:02:23] Nathan: Mm.

[01:02:24] Dan: Like there goes my job. Right. But like, it, it is that, there’s that story, which I thought this was where you’re gonna go, but of like the, the brick layers. I dunno who said it. Yeah. It was like, it was like a famous, you know, uh, parable of like brick layer layers were working and someone comes along through three brick layers and ask ’em what they’re doing.

[01:02:39] The first says, I’m, I’m, I’m laying bricks. Right. Like, that’s the design. Like I mm-hmm. I used to make, I used to design things. Um, and then the next one, you, you, they, they ask him like, what do you, what are you, what are you doing? Like, I’m building a cathedral. Mm. And then the last one it says, what are you doing?

[01:02:55] Like, I’m building a house for God. And it’s like, okay. So the designer Yeah. You were, you’re moving lines in Illustrator. Right, right. Like, okay, you were making a logo, the second one, making a logo for, for a company. Or like, maybe that third one is like. I’m helping a brand communicate who it is in a visual way to its customers, and now I might help

[01:03:19] Nathan: 10 brands.

[01:03:20] Dan: Yeah, yeah. Which again, like I’m not a designer and I know that it can be pain. You know, these, these, right. These image generation tools can be really painful and scary in that regard. But like, what if we could zoom out and see like, what is the real work? Mm-hmm. That only I can do because there’s so much more, I think, I think we’re underselling ourselves if AI is that big of a threat again.

[01:03:41] Yeah. And this is talking from a really privileged, you know, privileged physician, like drive through work. My, my wife, my wife worked the drive through at McDonald’s in high school and she loved that job. And like now it’s ai and that makes, that makes her sad. Mm-hmm. I, I get that. Uh, but for many of the rest of us, like, I think we need to, to think bigger.

[01:03:57] Mm.

[01:03:57] Nathan: I think that that moment where we realized reinvention is necessary is so key.

[01:04:02] Dan: Mm.

[01:04:02] Nathan: So in England, in, I guess it’d be the 18 hundreds, uh, there was a. Uh, a weaver. Right. So he’s making like a master of his craft.

[01:04:12] Dan: Yeah.

[01:04:13] Nathan: Um, making all of these things. And then in the, in industrial revolution as it starts, um, you know, these looms come together.

[01:04:19] Yes. It turns into an industrial process. Yes. And he had a well paying job. Yes. They loses and his family becomes very, very poor.

[01:04:26] Dan: Yeah.

[01:04:26] Nathan: And they end up moving to the United States. They immigrate. It’s this whole big difficult thing. And so his son talks about this experience and like what he went through and, and, uh, watching his family go from.

[01:04:40] Like probably well off middle class to quite poor and, and making the leap.

[01:04:44] Dan: Mm.

[01:04:44] Nathan: And this moment of reinvention, and it’s Andrew Carnegie that’s telling the story. Holy cow. So the sun becomes the richest person in the world. Yes. Like in this moment. And so you think like that wild, the job disappears. Yes.

[01:04:57] You know, and you see like, ah, the craft is gone. All of this stuff. Yes. And he takes that firsthand observation and turns it into

[01:05:04] Dan: an empire.

[01:05:05] Nathan: An empire and all of that. And so it’s like, what are you gonna do? Yeah. With this moment?

[01:05:09] Dan: Yes. Oh man. That’s a powerful,

[01:05:10] Nathan: that’s a powerful story. Okay, so we promised two more examples.

[01:05:13] Dan: Okay. Two more examples. Okay. So, um, another example is just thinking about, well, I, I don’t even know how to what, what, what the, what’s the headline? Here? Lemme think about this.

[01:05:22] Nathan: Yeah.

[01:05:24] Dan: Another example is like that AI can, can do things that you don’t know. Like, it gives you powers that you don’t even know you have.

[01:05:32] Okay. Until you try to do this. I have a very practical example from my own, my own life. I was at Craft and Commerce this year. Mm-hmm. You got, Hailey got on stage and introduced the new Kit intern and then you walked out.

[01:05:43] Nathan: Yes.

[01:05:43] Dan: Which was, which was a great moment. Um, and then you talked about how you vibe coded this app for the, the app store news.

[01:05:49] You just, just launch the app store and I, I’d seen the app store and I was like, oh, this is cool. You can like, you know. Find some, some practical tools. I’m not, I like didn’t have any that were live yet that I was using, but then you’re talking about how you have this idea and you, you vibe coded it, which for people don’t know vibe coding, that means using an IDE or cloud, uh, windsurf, uh, or, or clo Claude code.

[01:06:11] I’m losing my words. Uh, to, to code for you. So you don’t write the code, but you tell the code, the, the, the, the tool what to do. Um, and I was just really inspired by that. I’ve had a problem with, um, I do a lot of trainings, webinars, um, if people join my, join my email list, you’ll, you’ll, you’ll, you’ll get to some free trainings.

[01:06:27] Um, and I like show, show up rates are always a problem. And so like, I’m like, you know, using different hack solutions to like try to just, I just wanna get this thing onto someone’s calendar and it’s not as easy as I want it to be. So I was like, if I could just have that button. My, in my emails and there’s some hack solutions to do this.

[01:06:47] It would just be so much easier. So I spent a few hours with, with Windsurf, with using, using, um, AI and built this add to calendar app button. It is literally a button,

[01:06:59] Nathan: right?

[01:06:59] Dan: That’s live in that app store on, on Kit. Now, I think, I don’t know, you could tell me I’m maybe one of the first, the f the first, um, vibe coded user-generated apps in the, in the store.

[01:07:10] Um, and now, ’cause I was like, I wanna solve this for myself. So I solved it for myself and now anyone can use it. Go. You can go to the app store and you can, it just, you put in your time, start time, end time, you can put a link, put a description, and then it generates a apple, uh, calendar button and uh, Google calendar button and a, an Outlook calendar button.

[01:07:28] And then it’s in your email so people can just click and. Add it to their email.

[01:07:32] Nathan: So what I love about this is in the old world, yeah, you would’ve come to me and said, Hey, I, I have this obscure little feature request, but in Kit, could you build an automated ad calendar? Yes. For me, please. Just for me. For me personally, I promise at least a dozen other people will find this useful.

[01:07:49] Yes, yes, yes. And we, I would’ve like prioritized it against like a thousand other things, Uhhuh, and been like, Dan, I’m sorry, but we’re in building.

[01:07:56] Dan: You don’t matter that much.

[01:07:58] Nathan: But in this world, like this is one of our big bets when it comes to ai Yeah. Is that we want to build a platform where your data is wildly accessible.

[01:08:06] I love that. So you can pull it into any tool you want, you push back into it, and then you can extend the platform in any way that you want. Yes. So when I saw you launch this app, I was. Overjoyed, like so, so excited because you said, this is a problem for me.

[01:08:19] Dan: Yep.

[01:08:20] Nathan: I can solve it. And now someone, someone else who has this problem just says, oh, I just installed the app from the store.

[01:08:25] It now makes this process really, really easy. Yeah. You have hundreds and hundreds of installs Yes. On this add to calendar app?

[01:08:31] Dan: Yes. Thousands. It’s like six thousands. 6,000 events so far that I’ve, that I’ve counted. I wasn’t even tracking for the first like couple months, so Yes.

[01:08:38] Nathan: Yes. So the thousands of events being added.

[01:08:40] Yeah. Using ai Yes. You were able to extend a product that you use every single day. Yes,

[01:08:45] Dan: yes. Totally. Totally. And I think like the invitation here, like I, I have built things internally for cu for customers, built things for myself. Mm-hmm. But I haven’t made something that anyone can just go and, and download.

[01:08:55] Right. And so it was like a little, little intimidating. And, and so for me it’s just an experiment. Like, can I do maybe like the, kinda like the content experiment. What happens if I put 200 posts on my, on my, on my blog? Um, but the invitation here is, um. To think about, like, what are the things that you, I don’t know if I can do this.

[01:09:11] Mm-hmm. And I don’t know if AI can do this, but to spend some dedicated, focused time just exploring the possibilities. Right. And I think that’s where this could get really practical into someone’s, you know, someone’s specific workflow. Maybe it’s a, you know, an automation that you’ve been thinking about that you really, that you really need.

[01:09:25] AI is great at building automation. If you want to automate something and make, or Zapier, or N eight N or like whatever, start with AI and have AI design it for you and create the specific steps that you need in order to go in and create that automation. So then you go into, you know, whatever the tool is, and you have to like, you know, sometimes you have to do like JSON stuff and like, you know, rejects and like all this technical stuff that feels over totally overwhelming.

[01:09:52] But you

[01:09:53] Nathan: ask AI to

[01:09:53] Dan: explain it to you, ask, ask AI to explain it to you, have AI print a plan, and then you just have to follow the plan. And soon, I’m sure you’ll be able to just get operator or, or you know, one of these tools to go and like do it for you. But print the plan even then run it through another AI system like we’re talking about earlier and have like, is this actually right?

[01:10:09] Because they’re gonna find like, oh yeah, that’s actually not what that thing is called. It’s changed the name and like whatever. Uh, but the invitation is to think about you’re, you have so much more capability at your fingertips

[01:10:20] Nathan: mm-hmm.

[01:10:20] Dan: Because of ai and we’re blind to it ’cause we just haven’t seen what it can do yet.

[01:10:23] Nathan: Right. Yeah. That’s amazing. If anyone wants to go and try to build kit apps themselves, if you go to Kit University just in your browser, there’s a whole tutorial series on how to do it and uh, specifically around vibe coding. Yes. Uh, kit apps. ’cause it’s really, really fun.

[01:10:36] Dan: Yes.

[01:10:37] Nathan: Alright, so people have probably gotten a ton out of this episode.

[01:10:39] We’ve covered a lot of ground. What is one final example?

[01:10:43] Dan: Yes, yes. Okay. Yeah. So many of us have. Transformations that we’re facilitating, whether we’re we’re teaching courses, any, any, I mean, every business in some way is taking someone from one state to, to another state. And I think there’s a, a missed opportunity for a lot of us to document those transformations, especially if we’re working with people in coaching settings, um, courses, communities.

[01:11:06] And the way that this looks, this way that it can look is to take the, the transcripts or the outputs, the places where people are interacting. For me, with my cohort, I do this every, every session. I have a doc for each one of my, um, my cohort participants. And every session I have my AI look at that session and pull out any, any, uh, insights or clues, cues about the transformation that’s taking place.

[01:11:31] In that session for that person. So then we have where they are at the beginning, the questions that they’re asking, the problems we’re trying, trying to solve. And then as they progress, we have, they built this workflow, they built this workflow. They save this much time, right? They save this much time. And then by the end, I have this library of like, killer case study content.

[01:11:48] Anytime I need to write, you know, write a post or something, or a case study, blog post, whatever newsletter, I can just like, okay, grab a case study. It’s all, it’s all right there. But then you can also use it, especially for like people who work in less, um, tangible fields. Like when you’re, when you’re facilitating a transformation that’s, that’s harder, harder to, to quantify, to like have their own words fed back to them about the progress is just so, so powerful.

[01:12:11] I worked with a coach around this where we, we, uh, she has an intake form. Where she has people do a self-assessment, then she has a, um, an outtake, you know, it has people go through that same form, and then we have AI compare one to the other and then write a story based on her, her, uh, journey. Journey, yeah.

[01:12:29] The, the journey along the way so that now when someone’s finishing, they’re not just like, that was, that was great. Thanks. See you later. It’s like, here’s where you were, here’s where we took you. Mm-hmm. Here’s how these scores on your assessment improved, and then here’s how you can keep going on your journey, whether that’s with me or elsewhere, which is I love that so, so powerful.

[01:12:50] Nathan: Anyone who is creating content. Ultimately in the transformation business.

[01:12:54] Dan: Yes.

[01:12:55] Nathan: Right. That is what we do.

[01:12:56] Dan: Yes,

[01:12:57] Nathan: we are. Whether we’re trying to teach you a skill, we’re trying to develop you emotionally, or we’re trying to take you on a journey. We’re trying to create transformation of some kind. And so what you’re saying is build the systems to document that.

[01:13:06] Dan: Yeah, exactly. So well said.

[01:13:08] Nathan: That’s beautiful. Yeah. Dan, this has been fantastic. Yes. Where should people go if they want to? They’re like, I did not get enough in an hour and 15 minutes. Like, give me more. Yeah. I wanna follow you on LinkedIn. I wanna dive in. Okay. Where should they go?

[01:13:20] Dan: Yeah. Well, uh, LinkedIn’s great.

[01:13:22] Dan Cumberland Labs is my website, but I wanted to like have something that’s really special Yeah. For, for your people. So I do these, these round table AI discussions. Again, like this idea of like crossing the chasm from where we are to like really that possibility and how it’s so helpful to just be able to have conversations with other leaders who are, who are making that, crossing, that, crossing that chasm, building those bridges.

[01:13:43] Um. They’re private, they’re invite only, and they’re not recorded. Um, because I want it to be a safe place where people can be like, we’re really struggling and we’re not doing anything right. Or what? Whatever. Yep. Um, and so we, we do ’em, we do ’em about once a month. Um, I, I bought a domain just for this purpose because I wanted to invite people.

[01:14:01] Uh, it’s. AI growth roundtable.com.

[01:14:05] Nathan: Okay.

[01:14:06] Dan: By the time this goes live, there’ll be a place where you can sign up to one of them. I would love to have people jump in. If you want to learn more about Context Engineering, you can go to dan cumberland labs.com/context. Mm-hmm. Those five files we were talking about, it teaches you how to do all of that.

[01:14:21] But I would love for folks to join me at a Roundtable and dig in together,

[01:14:25] Nathan: ai growth roundtable.com.

[01:14:27] Dan: That’s right.

[01:14:27] Nathan: Perfect. Thanks so much for coming on.

[01:14:29] Dan: Thank you for having me. This has been so fun.

[01:14:31] Nathan: If you enjoyed this episode, go to YouTube and search the Nathan Barry Show. Then hit subscribe and make sure to like the video and drop a comment.

[01:14:39] I’d love to hear what some of your favorite parts of the video were, and also just who else do you think we should have on the show. Thank you so much for listening.

[00:00:00] Nathan: Alright, Tim, we’re here to talk today about how to engineer a bestselling book launch. This is personal for me because I have a book coming out next year and I would like it to be a bestselling book.

[00:00:10] Tim: Okay. So these words can mean different things. So when you say bestselling book launch, what do you mean?

[00:00:16] Like, do you have like a goal in mind?

[00:00:18] Nathan: I want to sell a hundred thousand copies of this book.

[00:00:20] Tim: Okay. A hundred thousand copies. Let me borrow that marker. Alright, so your goal is to have a hundred thousand sales. Right.

[00:00:30] Nathan: That’s right.

[00:00:31] Tim: Okay. Okay. So we’re gonna come back to this and talk about if that’s the right goal or not.

[00:00:35] Okay. But let’s first talk about what this means. So when you think book launch

[00:00:42] Nathan: mm-hmm.

[00:00:42] Tim: What comes to mind?

[00:00:44] Nathan: Uh, I’m thinking about the. Uh, the week of sales or the, and leading up to that, right. Okay. Of the launch itself. So like

[00:00:51] Tim: pre-orders,

[00:00:52] Nathan: pre-orders, uh, the partnerships, the podcasts that we’re doing. Um, yeah, everything else I think about lists, like are we trying to hit a bestseller list?

[00:01:01] Are we,

[00:01:02] Tim: yeah.

[00:01:02] Nathan: Uh, what’s the longevity of the book? There’s so many things in that.

[00:01:04] Tim: Yeah. So a lot of times when people are thinking about the book launch, they’re thinking specifically about. That first week. Okay. Right. So much pressure, especially if you’re with like a traditional publisher, they’re really looking at that first week.

[00:01:18] So they’re looking at all of the pre-orders that lead up to that first week of sales. ’cause any pre-orders count towards that first week of sales. So that’s really where people are looking at. But what I’ve found practically for 99.9% of books. You should extend that book launch window beyond a week.

[00:01:37] Nathan: Okay.

[00:01:38] Tim: You should exp extend it to two years.

[00:01:41] Nathan: Okay. So this launch Yeah. If we’re talking about that,

[00:01:44] Tim: yeah.

[00:01:45] Nathan: You’re saying two years.

[00:01:46] Tim: Two years now, and now we’re getting into like cliche analogies. Right. So it’s like, it’s the difference of a sprint versus a marathon. Mm-hmm. Right? So if I feel like, okay, I, I gotta make ha everything happen in a week.

[00:02:00] Well, I might like throw everything, like, you know, shut down everything in my life and just focus on it for a week.

[00:02:06] Nathan: Right?

[00:02:07] Tim: Versus if I’m looking at two years, I have to do something that I can sustain for a very long period of time.

[00:02:14] Nathan: Hmm.

[00:02:14] Tim: So that’s the first thing is I want people to expand out their view.

[00:02:20] ’cause too many authors come out with their book, try to sell it. It doesn’t sell very well in the first week, the first month, and they literally just stop and move on because they’re like, well, that one didn’t work. Um, and

[00:02:32] Nathan: that one being, that book

[00:02:33] Tim: didn’t work, that book didn’t work or whatever, and then they’re just kind of like, they just move on instead of like, no, like, it takes longer than that.

[00:02:40] And, and also you have to understand like books take a long time to consume. You know, I can watch a movie in two hours. I can listen to a new music album and, and an hour or less or a book. You’re talking multiple hours for most books. Yeah. And so. They take a long time to consume. And so what I’ve found is you don’t really see the, and we’re gonna get into what it takes to launch the book, but you don’t really see real fruits of your labor for about a year.

[00:03:06] Nathan: Okay?

[00:03:07] Tim: So you have to like keep going without seeing a lot of impact for a year before you see a really big impact. So just in general. When we say book launch, we don’t mean the first week your book comes out, we’re talking the first two years your book comes out and Dan Pink was the first one to teach me this, and he’s like, big time New York Times bestselling author.

[00:03:26] And he’s like, when I come out with a new book, that’s the next two years of my life is promoting that book.

[00:03:30] Nathan: Yeah. Okay. That makes sense. And then let’s get into the definition of bestselling.

[00:03:34] Tim: Yeah.

[00:03:34] Nathan: Because this is something else where. What are we going for here?

[00:03:37] Tim: Well, that’s a question for you because I feel like there’s kind of two things here.

[00:03:41] So a lot of times when people say bestselling, first of all, I don’t think most people even understand that there’s a very wide, vague definition of what a bestseller, right? So we talking like a New York Times bestselling book

[00:03:54] Nathan: or a category bestseller on

[00:03:56] Tim: Amazon. Yeah. Our category bestseller, which you sometimes you can hit by selling three copies in an hour.

[00:04:01] Um, and so when you think about like 10 years from now, you look back on this book launch, how are you gonna judge success of the book? ’cause you’re saying a hundred thousand sales. So like, do you, if all let, let’s say all those sales came in the first week

[00:04:17] Nathan: mm-hmm.

[00:04:18] Tim: And then you didn’t sell anymore. Like, is that success?

[00:04:21] Like when you think about looking back 10 years from now, what do you want for your book?

[00:04:26] Nathan: I’m looking for a book that has a big impact. Primarily. Yeah. And then a big impact on a lot of people.

[00:04:32] Tim: Yeah.

[00:04:32] Nathan: And so I want it to sell well and then keep selling for a very long time. Right.

[00:04:38] Tim: That’s what most authors would like.

[00:04:41] Mm-hmm. But it now that starts to change what you’re focused on, right? Mm-hmm. So there are a lot of books that hit the New York Times bestseller list, or when there was a Wall Street Journal bestseller list. Right. Hit that bestseller list or hit the USA Today or LA Times bestseller list and then never sell another thousand copies ever again.

[00:05:00] Nathan: So they have a, a graph that looks like that.

[00:05:03] Tim: Yep. And so they put a lot of effort, a lot of time into engine, and there’s all kinds of ways that mm-hmm. A deep dark hole of engineering, a New York Times bestselling book. So let’s say you do that and you sell your 10,000 copies. 12,000 copies. Yeah. That’s about what it takes.

[00:05:21] ’cause remember the New York Times list and all of these lists, they. They go from Sunday to Saturday, so it’s how many sales you get in a week. Mm-hmm. Which is kind of a weird thing to do. Like if you go back to why are their bestseller lists, it’s Well, so that I, as a reader will know what I should read because that’s the most popular book.

[00:05:41] Right. This is why we look at Rotten Tomatoes for movies like. Well, how many a book sells in a week? Doesn’t really matter, I don’t think. Right. So we have a mutual friend, Josh Kaufman. Right, right. His book, the personal MBA, has sold over 2 million copies since it came out. It has never once hit the New York Times, wall Street Journal, any of the major lists.

[00:06:03] And yet it has sold whatever that X is, between 10,000 and 2 million. More than many, many, many New York Times bestsellers.

[00:06:12] Nathan: So his graph, maybe there’s a little launch. Yeah. Right. But his graph

[00:06:17] Tim: Yes.

[00:06:17] Nathan: Looks like some, some version of that.

[00:06:19] Tim: Yeah. Of like this slow burn. And so, I mean, there were two books that came out at the beginning of this year.

[00:06:26] Mm-hmm. One of them. Sold 10 to 12,000 copies hit the New York Times bestseller list. Hasn’t sold one to 2000 since then.

[00:06:34] Nathan: Okay.

[00:06:34] Tim: Okay. There was another book that came out about the same time in a similar category. Did not hit the New York Times list in it, sell very well that first week, but it started finding an audience and now six months later it’s sold over 60,000 copies.

[00:06:48] Wow. So who do you want to be? Do you want to be the one that hit the New York Times list but didn’t sell a bunch of copies? Long term? Right. Or what we’re talking about here, which is a perennial bestseller, which is. A term that, I don’t know, I don’t think he coined it, but Ryan Holiday’s book, perennial Bestseller is a great book on this topic of creating something that lasts a really long time.

[00:07:07] And that’s kind of where I’m guessing you want to lean.

[00:07:10] Nathan: Yeah. So what I’m going for is maybe, uh, a third graph in here. That spikes at launch dips somewhat as that market. Yeah, we talked about that. And then just continues to grow up and build from there up.

[00:07:24] Tim: Yeah.

[00:07:25] Nathan: Uh, I mean, it’s the biggest cliche in publishing, but I think about Atomic Habits in this case where James put an insane amount into the launch.

[00:07:34] Mm-hmm. And he had a big launch. He hit the New York Times list, but I think within a couple weeks he was off the list.

[00:07:39] Tim: Yeah.

[00:07:40] Nathan: I think it, it fell off pretty quickly and then two weeks later. He was number one on the two weeks, sorry,

[00:07:46] Tim: sorry.

[00:07:46] Nathan: Two years. Two years later.

[00:07:47] Tim: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:07:48] Nathan: He was number one on the New York Times list as it built off and then became this

[00:07:53] Tim: incredible seller and like, um, Jay Papasan co-wrote, you know, we know Jay co-wrote the book, the One Thing mm-hmm.

[00:07:59] With, um,

[00:08:00] Nathan: Gary

[00:08:00] Tim: Keller. Gary Keller. And they had really big platform. That book came out, did really well. I don’t know if it hit the list the first week. It might have. I need to find out.

[00:08:09] Nathan: Probably based on the size of their

[00:08:10] Tim: book. Yeah. Like it sold really well. I know it sold really well that first week or two.

[00:08:14] And then Jay and and Gary were out promoting the book. Promoting the book, and over that year, sales kept ticking down.

[00:08:21] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:08:22] Tim: Right. Ticking down. Ticking down.

[00:08:23] Nathan: Which has to be so demoralizing.

[00:08:24] Tim: Yeah. Yeah. And then right at a year. It ticked up and then started taking off, and then the book still sells really well.

[00:08:31] Nathan: Yeah, and there are millions of copies sold

[00:08:33] Tim: at this point.

[00:08:33] Nathan: Yes.

[00:08:33] Tim: Yeah. And so then you’re looking at like, okay, so this is where you can, here’s how I think about it, is like if I have some version of an existing platform. And a platform can be lots of different things. And the way I think of a platform is just a way I know I can sell books.

[00:08:51] Nathan: Right?

[00:08:51] Tim: Right. Like I know when I come out with my book, I can sell a certain amount of copies because of the direct connections I have. So that’s gets you that first spike.

[00:09:00] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:09:01] Tim: But then you have to keep going and doing things so that you get that long tail effect of the book continuing to sell. And that’s where we can start looking at a hundred thousand sales of what that means.

[00:09:13] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:09:13] Tim: When we’re looking at this, so what we mean now is bestselling doesn’t mean it sold a bunch of copies in a week. It means it’s a book that finds an audience and keeps selling for a long period of time. So 10 years from now, your book is still selling really well. That’s the goal, right?

[00:09:27] Nathan: Yep.

[00:09:27] Tim: Right. So whether it hits a list or not, that’s what

[00:09:30] Nathan: we want.

[00:09:30] Yeah, and that’s, it’s something that I wrestle with a little bit. ’cause on one hand, the driven person in me who wants to get the book in front of as many people as possible is like, okay, I do wanna hit the list I want. That level of goal, you know, I wanted a big spike, so it’s in a lot of people’s hands, but having watched a bunch of these launches firsthand Yeah.

[00:09:49] Like have a, a front row seat to them, it’s like, hi.

[00:09:52] Tim: They’re terrible. They’re just terrible.

[00:09:55] Nathan: I don’t like, I don’t want, if you put things truly at odds with each other.

[00:09:59] Tim: Yeah.

[00:09:59] Nathan: I don’t want a New York Times bestseller. Over. Yes. A, uh, like a over a perennial seller.

[00:10:07] Tim: It’s not always either or. Yeah. But a lot of times it is.

[00:10:09] Mm-hmm. Like it because you have to do things a certain way.

[00:10:13] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:10:13] Tim: To get books to count for the New York Times list. Right. So for instance, if all of your sales are through Amazon, you have a much less likely could of hitting the New York Times bestseller list than if they got bought at Powell’s in Portland.

[00:10:26] Nathan: Right.

[00:10:26] Tim: And we could go deep into that hole. Again, that’s a whole nother hole. So you start end up having to play games that hurt your overall sales to make sure you get the right sales right to the New York Times list. So what I want to do, just knowing you, knowing what you’re trying to accomplish, I wanna set that to the side.

[00:10:44] We do want to get as many people to read the book and buy the book as possible, but we don’t care how they buy it. Right. Where they buy it, when they buy it. Mm-hmm. We just want them to buy and read the book and tell somebody else. Mm-hmm.

[00:10:55] Nathan: Right.

[00:10:56] Tim: That’s how we start to grow. That’s bestselling is a book.

[00:11:00] Mm-hmm. That has sold really well and is still selling 10 years from now. Yeah. That’s the goal. And the launch doesn’t mean you just throw a lot at the book when it comes out and then move on with your life. It’s like, I’m gonna keep promoting this book for two years.

[00:11:11] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:11:11] Tim: So when we say how to engineer bestselling book launch, that’s what we’re talking about.

[00:11:15] Nathan: I like that.

[00:11:15] Tim: Do you agree with that?

[00:11:16] Nathan: Yes.

[00:11:16] Tim: Okay. So we’ll now spend the rest of this time probably talking about the word engineer, right? How do you do this? Sounds

[00:11:23] Nathan: good.

[00:11:23] Tim: So, um, we can kind of come at this from two ways. We can talk about my overall framework for how I think about launches, or we can start with your goal of a hundred thousand.

[00:11:33] What do you want to do?

[00:11:34] Nathan: Uh, let’s go to the framework first.

[00:11:35] Tim: Okay.

[00:11:35] Nathan: And then, and then we’ll break down the goal.

[00:11:37] Tim: So everything I do when it comes to launching a book can fit into one of three categories.

[00:11:43] Nathan: Okay.

[00:11:44] Tim: Okay. So the first is, um, get Influencers to promote the book.

[00:11:48] Nathan: Okay.

[00:11:49] Tim: Alright. So there’s basically two groups of people I’m thinking about.

[00:11:53] I’m thinking about fans and I’m thinking about influencers, and this is how I define those terms. Fans are people who will buy your book. Mm-hmm. So they’re people you’re directly connected to. So like your mom’s your fan, she’s gonna go buy a copy of your book and like, I’m a fan, I’m gonna go buy a copy of the book.

[00:12:09] Right? Uh, people on your newsletter are fans of yours. They’re gonna go buy a copy of your book. People that follow you on social media, they’re gonna go buy a copy. So fans are people who will buy your book. Influencers are people who get other people to buy your book.

[00:12:23] Nathan: Okay?

[00:12:23] Tim: Right. So all of their fans to go buy your book.

[00:12:27] Right? So this is your friends that have podcasts, your friends that have newsletters that will help you. They’ll take your book and promote it to their list. So the first one is in Get Influencers to promote. Mm-hmm. The second is get fans to buy.

[00:12:40] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:12:42] Tim: And then the third is get fans to share.

[00:12:45] Nathan: Okay.

[00:12:46] Tim: So literally anything I do to promote a book is going to fall into one of those categories.

[00:12:52] Okay. And you’re always thinking about, ’cause the other thing I think people forget about is you just, you have limited amount of time. You have two years. Right. But in any given day, you can’t do everything. Right. So, uh, so we start looking at like, okay, leading up to the book, the first day the book is out.

[00:13:11] Mm-hmm. Right. That first week, we do want to do as much as we can. And so, uh, so here’s an example. I was working with this author and he was like, I want to go on a hundred podcasts to promote my book. Yeah. I’m like, okay. So I was like, have you made a list of these podcasts? He’s like, yeah. I was like, all right, show ’em to me.

[00:13:28] So I’m going through it and like number, like 82 was the Joe Rogan experience, and I was like. Can you get on Joe Rogan’s podcast? And he’s like, oh yeah, he’s a good buddy. He said he’d have me on any time. I go, okay, well you’re going to get 10 times more reach off of that one than the other 99 of these combined.

[00:13:49] Combined,

[00:13:49] Nathan: right,

[00:13:49] Tim: right. So let’s move him to the top. Yeah. Make sure we nail that one. Mm-hmm. And then we can start working on, if you really wanna do a hundred just to do a hundred podcasts, that’s fine. But let’s nail that one and then worry about the others after that, because that’s where you get the biggest bang for your buck.

[00:14:05] And what I found in book marketing is it’s not the 80 20 principle, it’s the 95 5 principle. Okay. It’s like there’s usually like 5% of things compared to everything you could possibly do that will get the biggest bang for your buck. Right. Yeah. So if, when I talk to an author and they have a really big email list, so they have an email list of a hundred thousand, 500,000, a million people, there is nothing else they can do besides like, I don’t know, get on Joe Rogan’s podcast.

[00:14:36] Then just getting all those people on their email list that it’s bigger than that, than than their email list to, to, uh, buy the book. So we put a lot of time and effort into number two, which would be get fans to buy the book because that’s gonna be their biggest lever. With you, your overall platform is relatively small.

[00:14:53] Yep. Compar, comparatively, and so, but you have a lot of really big connections in the creator world. You’re friends with Ryan Holiday who has a huge email list of people that love to buy books.

[00:15:05] Nathan: Right. His entire thing is around, around books.

[00:15:07] Tim: Yeah. And we can name a bunch of creative that have a really big platform.

[00:15:10] So it’s like, oh, well if I’m looking at Nathan’s, Nathan’s platform, this is what a platform is. Right. His biggest lever is sitting right here, is getting influencers to promote, right? So we need to make sure. We nailed this one. And this will be like a secondary thing because this is not gonna sell as many copies as one email.

[00:15:30] Like getting really hammering your whole platform. Right. Probably won’t sell as many copies as one email to Ryan Holiday’s book.

[00:15:37] Nathan: So yeah, the example here, I might be trying to do everything. Yes. And like how do I, you know, I have 60,000 customers of Kit. How do I get all of them to promote the ladders of wealth?

[00:15:47] Yeah. When it comes out. But what I hear you saying is, is my. Joe Rogan experience example is Ryan Holiday. James Clear and Sahil Bloom.

[00:15:56] Tim: There you go.

[00:15:57] Nathan: Combined they have 6 million subscribers on their three. Three newsletters.

[00:16:02] Yeah.

[00:16:02] Nathan: James makes up the bulk of that.

[00:16:03] Tim: Yeah,

[00:16:04] Nathan: but how can I engineer the like,

[00:16:08] Tim: because, yeah, because it’s like the best

[00:16:08] Nathan: version of

[00:16:09] Tim: that.

[00:16:09] It’s every single kit customer buys a copy, right? It won’t sell. As well as getting the book promoted to 6 million people. Right.

[00:16:16] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:16:17] Tim: Because if you convert 1% of that, is that six 60,000?

[00:16:21] Nathan: Yeah, it’d

[00:16:21] Tim: be

[00:16:21] Nathan: 6,000.

[00:16:22] Tim: So that’s how you’ve gotta think about it. So I like, you know, years ago I was watching, um, Dave Ramsey.

[00:16:27] Yeah. And he was talking about how to do a budget if you have variable income. Mm-hmm. Right? So if you’re a sales person or something like that.

[00:16:33] Nathan: Yep.

[00:16:33] Tim: He’s like, so top is your mortgage, you gotta pay your mortgage first, then you gotta pay your light bill. And you just put everything in order of importance.

[00:16:42] And then you just every month get as far down that list as possible. Right.

[00:16:46] Nathan: Okay.

[00:16:46] Tim: So I think of this that way is we’re gonna take everything you could do in all of these categories that you think would be interesting. So you might come up with an idea of like, I’m gonna like read a page of my book. Every day is a short on Instagram and I’m gonna do that.

[00:17:00] Great. Write it down. Yeah. But it’s gonna be so far down the list. You’re never gonna get to it. ’cause that’s not gonna sell that many books. Right. Social media does not sell books. Mm. At any kind of like normal scale, right? Right. So if some viral, something happens. Sure. And if you know how to engineer it, congratulations.

[00:17:19] But social media is the 95% of work that gets the 5% of results. So that’s always at the bottom. So if you run out of things to do above that, that have higher leverage, sure, go ahead and do whatever you want. What I would do with you is, and we also do that same thing within these, right? Mm-hmm. So it’s like, okay, well you’re connected to hundreds, maybe thousands of creators.

[00:17:42] Yep. Right? So what I always say is like, who are the top 10? Mm-hmm. Right? So, um, where, and I always say like where if they said Fly to Africa. To meet with me and I’ll interview you for my podcast. It’s like I would fly to Africa to be on Joe gans, the most Inconvenient 10 podcast. Yeah. Because it’s such a big impact.

[00:18:01] It’s worth that much work, right? Mm-hmm. So we wanna identify those top tier people. And there’s some, there’s nuance here, right? So there’s a lever of like. That would be really amazing. But I don’t know Oprah, so I’m probably not gonna get her to promote my book and hey, I’m actually good friends with this person, but they’re not as big as Oprah, but they’ll do whatever.

[00:18:21] That’s a much higher level state

[00:18:23] Nathan: where their audience might be highly relevant.

[00:18:25] Tim: That too. Yeah, because I’ve had, um, authors that get on the Today Show and we see no bump in sales. Right, right. But if you have like a recipe book and get on the Today Show, you’re gonna see a bump in sales. So it just, yeah, it’s audience and uh, and topic of book match as well.

[00:18:40] Mm-hmm. That makes sense. Which your, yours is such a broad ladders of wealth, like mm-hmm. That’s a really great category. I know James talks a lot about this. Yeah. Of like, money’s just a really great category ’cause everybody worries about money.

[00:18:51] Nathan: Right.

[00:18:51] Tim: Yeah,

[00:18:52] Nathan: that makes sense. Okay, so influencers promoting that is, we’re talking newsletters, podcasts.

[00:18:56] Tim: Yeah. It’s also, this is the thing influencers promoting takes the longer. Amount of time because it, it’s herding cats, right? Hmm. You’re trying to get 50 different people to all promote your book at basically the same time.

[00:19:12] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:19:12] Tim: But they have schedules and you gotta fly here to do this one. Mm-hmm. And you’ve gotta, you know, set up a Zoom call and they’re in Singapore, so you gotta figure out the time.

[00:19:21] Like each one is very unique and so most of the time. I encourage an author if they have a lot of influencers they wanna promote, they need to have an assistant that’s helping them manage that, get it all planned out. And I like to start like nine months before planning all of this stuff out.

[00:19:37] Nathan: Okay.

[00:19:38] Tim: So if we go to, uh, let me just talk a little bit more about this.

[00:19:41] So influencers promote, so this is. Basically, I mean, we talked about like newsletters, podcasts, um, you know, if Blogging’s still a thing, you know, uh, getting interviewed on their YouTube channel or having them promote your book on, it’s like anywhere where they have a reach that if they talk about your book, you’re gonna sell books Right.

[00:20:01] To to their audience.

[00:20:03] Nathan: Yep.

[00:20:03] Tim: So I really like to stay broad because like one time I was working with this author and she had written this, um, book about how the brain learns. She got connected to this network of email newsletters for, uh, homeschooling parents. Okay. And she sold thousands of copies and most people have never heard.

[00:20:24] Right. ’cause it’s this kind of underground thing. Mm-hmm. But man, that was a huge influence when

[00:20:29] Nathan: homeschoolers are always buying curriculum, trying to get the right things in front of their kids.

[00:20:33] Tim: And so, uh, and I have a good friend who’s sold over a million copies of his middle grade series, and it was all through, um.

[00:20:41] Uh, homeschool stay at home mom. Influencers on Instagram. Right? And he just did lots of promotion to those influencers. ’cause he knew that’s where

[00:20:51] Nathan: Right.

[00:20:52] Tim: He could find his audience. So I really want people, ’cause so many people are like, if I could get on the Tim Ferris podcast, you know, and it’s like, sure.

[00:21:00] And probably not gonna happen. Right? But there’s probably places that are more likely that will have a huge impact on sales.

[00:21:08] Nathan: Okay. Going to fan, getting fans to buy.

[00:21:09] Tim: Yeah. This is, this is the most straightforward.

[00:21:12] Nathan: Okay.

[00:21:13] Tim: Um, so one of the downsells of launching a book is so, okay, so one of the biggest like triggers to get people to buy something is scarcity, right?

[00:21:22] Mm-hmm. There’s only a hundred, or the price is going up. Mm-hmm. Or, you know, whatever. And one thing books don’t have is scarcity. Right? Yeah. I know when your book comes out, it’s gonna be out forever. I can buy it today

[00:21:34] Nathan: or five years from

[00:21:35] Tim: now and Yeah. And it’ll probably, I can get it used in like six months for $4.

[00:21:40] Right, right. So it’s like, why should I buy your book now? Mm-hmm. So this is where we do a, um, like a bonus campaign. Like if you pre-order the book by the day it comes out, you send me your receipt, I’m gonna give you all of these extra bonuses. Is, and again, this is much easier to manage because you control everything.

[00:21:59] It’s your platform, it’s your email list, your YouTube channel, your podcast. Yeah. So you can plan ahead, you can get everything ready. Um, where like, you can’t do that on the influencer promotion ’cause it’s so every single, um, influencer is unique in the way that you’re gonna have to approach them. This is why you have to.

[00:22:17] Put everything in order of most importance. Right? Right. Because again, if you can get those top 10 people on the list, that’s gonna get 10 times more people than the other 90. Right here, it’s like, well, how do I incentivize people create scarcity around my book launch? Well, the only way to get these bonuses for the book are if you buy the book now.

[00:22:39] Mm-hmm. Not later. And you set that deadline mm-hmm. Of the day the book comes out. Okay. And then it becomes a pretty standard online promotion that a lot of your audiences already, and it’s like, Hey, we’re gonna send a lot of emails, we’re gonna do promotion.

[00:22:55] Nathan: Is there anything that you see work particularly well with bonuses where you’re like, these are a huge amount of either cost or time and don’t move the needle?

[00:23:03] Like what’s the 95 5 or

[00:23:04] Tim: 8 28

[00:23:05] Nathan: bonuses?

[00:23:06] Tim: So I got a good story on this. So, um, when we were doing, I was working with Dan Pink on his launch of to Sell as Human. And he was like, okay. You know, the one thing I’ve never seen anybody do, now, a lot of people have done this since, but at the time this was pretty unique, was, um, nobody, you never get something in the mail.

[00:23:27] Right. It’s always like digital stuff.

[00:23:29] Nathan: Right.

[00:23:29] Tim: So we’re gonna print off, uh, he partnered, I think it was with field Notes, and did like a custom to sell his human little notebook. Mm-hmm. He’s like, people are gonna love it. They’re gonna get this thing in the mail. And it was a logistical nightmare, right? And like he, I remember he sent me a picture of like his kids like packing envelopes at his kitchen table, like trying to get these out.

[00:23:50] And then people couldn’t buy it. We could only do it if you were in the US and it was like, it was a legit, legit, but we’re like, this is gonna really move the needle. So along with that, we did like a PDF workbook. We did some extra interviews with like some people that he had interviewed for the book. We did the audio interview, and I’ll come back to that in a second.

[00:24:06] So after the launch, a few months after the launch, I go back to everybody that had pre-ordered the book and sent in their receipt. We had ’em on a list and we’re like, Hey, which of these like were the most important to you to get you to buy the book? Across the board, the PDF workbook. Right. The easiest thing, the bottom tier was the thing, the physical, the notebook, the physical notebook.

[00:24:28] And so I like reached out to a few people that said that, and they’re, and the basic idea was people are not like, you know what I need, I’m running out of is more paper to write on. I’m, you know, it was like, oh. The best thing we can do is give them things that will help them get the most out of the book.

[00:24:45] Nathan: Right?

[00:24:46] Tim: Right. So they love the workbook. Mm-hmm. Because then they were able to read the book, then fill out the workbook and get the most out of the book. So what I think about is what other content, what other tools, if we think your book by definition is words written on a page, right. What other mediums could we use?

[00:25:09] And provide to people that buy the book to get even more out of the book. So some of my favorite things are a PDF workbook. Mm-hmm. It’s so easy and it seems so ridiculously simple and, but it works. The other thing I’ve seen, uh, and I’ve liked this for a couple reasons, is, um. Uh, doing like a four week book club the month after the book comes out.

[00:25:32] Okay. So, hey, you got the book? Yeah, right? You pre-ordered it. We’re gonna read, you know, the first three chapters the first week. Then I’m gonna come on and do a little bit of training and q and a to make sure, like, answer your questions about the book, make sure you get the most out of it ’cause. Then they’re, you’re helping them get more out of the book and they read the book.

[00:25:50] Nathan: Right?

[00:25:50] Tim: Right. And that’s really important that we’ll, we’ll come back to.

[00:25:53] Nathan: Okay.

[00:25:54] Tim: But, um, so I like book clubs to read the book. Um, I like if you interviewed people for the book, so a lot of people you’ll interview like experts. And only like little pieces get into the actual book. Well, what if you released the whole like, hour long interview with this Right.

[00:26:09] PhD from Stanford and only like four lines made it in the book, but people would be interested in that. Mm-hmm. So that’s a different medium too. It could be audio or video. Right, right. Um, so anything like that, the, the mistake I see people make is. Just throwing a bunch of bonuses, like they just pour more

[00:26:28] Nathan: is not better,

[00:26:29] Tim: more is not better.

[00:26:30] And unrelated content is, is not helpful. Um, so what I think of is like three to five things that you can promote as, hey, you’re gonna get the book but you’re also gonna gonna get these things that make sure you get the most out of this book. Mm-hmm. That’s kind of the framework I come with this.

[00:26:47] Nathan: And how do you think about.

[00:26:49] Numbers of copies that you’re trying to get people to buy, right? Mm-hmm. Like some of this, the PDF might be buy one copy.

[00:26:56] Tim: Yeah.

[00:26:56] Nathan: By this date. ’cause we’re really trying to get. You know, urgency for sales now.

[00:27:00] Tim: Yeah.

[00:27:00] Nathan: Versus the buy five copies. Buy 10. Yeah. Or we’ve seen some people do these lunches where it’s like, buy a hundred copies or 500 copies and get access in some way.

[00:27:11] Tim: Yeah. In most cases, when people are doing that, they’re shooting for the New York Times bestseller list ’cause they’re trying to cram as many sales through and we can,

[00:27:18] Nathan: and they don’t care that the book might sit in a

[00:27:19] Tim: warehouse or, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So like how are those thousand books gonna get out into the world?

[00:27:25] Mm-hmm. If they’re just a pallet of books in somebody’s, you know, um, I mean this is what Alex EY did is he sold this many books, but most of those books will never end up in anybody’s hands. Right. Because of the way that he did it. And so, um, which, you know, not knocking what he did, just saying like, those books are not gonna end up being read most of it.

[00:27:46] Mm-hmm. So you wanna make sure like. My goal is I want people to actually read the book. Also, you have to think about the one sale, three sale, five sale. That’s still like, I might buy five copies and give them to friends for Christmas or something. It also greatly increases the complexity, right? So if I know everybody that sends me a receipt, I’m gonna give them these bonuses.

[00:28:07] That’s really easy. But now if I’m keeping track of one automation, like, what’s that? Yeah. But now I’m keeping track of, well, did you sell one? Did you sell? Did you buy three? Did you buy five? Did you buy 10? Am I confirming that before I send you the other bonuses? Now I’m having to keep track of all that and it can get super con.

[00:28:24] So now we’re getting back into that. Where is your time best spent? We’re doing the, have the team, the time, time packing the

[00:28:29] Nathan: field notes at the kitchen table

[00:28:31] Tim: version again. Yeah. Yeah. Or the a hundred podcasts. Right? Right. And so are you going, do you have a big enough reach, a big enough impact, and you’re also creating another decision point?

[00:28:40] Right. The difference of clicking the button and clicking buy now on Amazon, we now have two clicks where now if I look, it’s like, well, do I want one copy? Do I want three copies? And then your wife calls you or your, you know, your friend asks you something and then you’re gone and you’ve lost it.

[00:28:55] Nathan: I got it.

[00:28:55] Right. And with zero copies.

[00:28:57] Tim: Yeah. And so I really like the whole like, just buy a copy. That’s all I want you to do is buy a copy and read a copy. That’s the main thing.

[00:29:04] Nathan: Okay. Let’s talk about fan getting fans to share.

[00:29:06] Tim: Yeah. And so what’s nice about, so. I put it number three ’cause it’s the third most important, right?

[00:29:12] We don’t want to try to get fans to share the book before they bought a copy, right? Mm-hmm. But once they’ve bought a copy, I would like them to share the book. And I added this one because of the way that we run these campaigns is well, in order for us to confirm they bought and send them their bonuses, they have to send me their receipt, which means I now have their email address.

[00:29:32] Nathan: Right.

[00:29:33] Tim: So I remove them off the, Hey, go buy my book email list or segment. And I put them on the, they’ve already bought segment. And now I start saying like, Hey, here’s three things to post on Twitter or X about my book. Here’s, you know, three images. Can you share this on Instagram? Or, Hey, here’s an email you could send your friends to tell them, you know, they can get these bonuses if they buy the book right now.

[00:29:55] And this is by far. The least impact. So don’t overthink this, don’t push too hard on this. Get something

[00:30:02] Nathan: in place and

[00:30:03] Tim: say that’s get something in place. I like putting up a page on my website that’s like click. Because you can create, you know, click to click to post to X buttons, do like that, do something for Instagram, Facebook, whatever.

[00:30:15] And then just leave it there and then send people there. But don’t overthink it. ’cause the other thing is. Like we forget that most people don’t know how to promote anything. Yeah. Right. They’ve never had to promote something. Right. So, ’cause one time I tried to help a author build a, like a launch team, and I found all these people with platforms to join the launch team, but then they didn’t know how to promote anything.

[00:30:37] Right. So then I’m like teaching them marketing and I ended up writing emails for like all of their email lists for them. And it was a, again, a logistical nightmare that didn’t end up in that many sales. So. So I just don’t overthink this, but hey, if I can make it really easy for my fans to share the book, let’s do it.

[00:30:55] Mm-hmm.

[00:30:56] Nathan: So what I love about this is that it’s simple, right? Yeah. This is the clear things that we, we can do. I can organize everything by our 95 5, what’s actually gonna move the needle. I also feel like in this book launch, you gave me permission to just focus on the most important things. Yes. And not try to maximize.

[00:31:10] Tim: Yeah.

[00:31:11] Nathan: So if I do this, is this, is this how I’m gonna drive a hundred thousand sales?

[00:31:16] Tim: Well, okay, so here’s the thing about the a hundred thousand sales thing, okay? Okay. So unless you are independently famous, even if you’re independently famous mm-hmm. Right? And you come to me and you’re like, Tim, I wanna sell a hundred thousand copies when my book comes out.

[00:31:34] How do I do that? Yeah. My answer would be, I don’t know. And now again, like I’m one of the best people in the world, right at this thing at book marketing and book launches. I have a long track record on this and I have no idea because here’s the thing about books. So the difference between books and maybe another type of product is that books have such a low margin, it’s almost impossible to spend money to sell books, okay?

[00:32:00] Unless you’re willing to take like a 10 to one loss, right?

[00:32:04] Nathan: So if I come in and say. Look, getting 10,000 or a hundred thousand sales is wildly important to me. I’m willing to spend money to make it happen.

[00:32:12] Tim: Yeah.

[00:32:12] Nathan: Surely we can make a funnel of some kind or all of that, and so that I can spend hundreds of thousands or millions of dollars on meta ads.

[00:32:20] Tim: Yes.

[00:32:20] Nathan: You’re like, it can’t be done. And except that in extreme loss.

[00:32:23] Tim: Yeah. Like. Because, um, the typical author with a traditional publishing deal is gonna make about $2 mm-hmm. Per book sale. Um, if you’re self-publishing, it’s gonna be like five to $7, right? So how do you spend, um, $5 to make a $10 sale,

[00:32:45] Nathan: of which

[00:32:46] Tim: you, you now have to, you have to get 50% of people.

[00:32:50] That click an ad

[00:32:52] Nathan: right

[00:32:52] Tim: to, you know, 50% to buy, right? Which is, I can spend $5, I can spend up to $5 to make a $10 sale. Right? So it’s like I that, that’s a lot of money. And you can’t do it profitably. It’s just,

[00:33:06] Nathan: well, in the, the, a lot of people will come back and say like, yes, but that’s where you have to have a full funnel.

[00:33:11] Yeah. And you’ll make money on the upsell or something like that. Yeah. And I was talking to some people last week Yeah. Who have, were basically saying, these are people who are some of the best in the world at making these funnels. And they’re like, look. Ad costs are so high.

[00:33:25] Tim: Yep.

[00:33:25] Nathan: That we’re no longer making money on the initial sale.

[00:33:28] We haven’t done that in forever.

[00:33:29] Tim: Yeah.

[00:33:30] Nathan: We’re no longer making money on the upsell. We’re actually only barely touching break even on the upsell to the upsell over a six month period. And even then, it’s really, really hard to,

[00:33:39] Tim: and you’re talking about a very savvy business person that has a book that’s plugged into an entire company.

[00:33:45] Yeah. Like. Wealth ladder, ladders of wealth mm-hmm. Is not plugged into some backend that’s gonna like, you’re trying to sell like big masterminds and conferences. It’s like, it’s your book. The book is the thing. The book is the thing. So if you wanna sell a hundred thousand copies of a book and not take a seven figure loss

[00:34:04] Nathan: mm-hmm.

[00:34:04] Tim: We, this is not the goal.

[00:34:06] Nathan: Advertise.

[00:34:06] Tim: Okay. Okay. So I’m going to,

[00:34:09] Nathan: okay.

[00:34:10] Tim: I’m gonna cross this out. Okay. Okay. And I’m gonna put 10,000.

[00:34:15] Nathan: Okay.

[00:34:17] Tim: Now there’s a really interesting thing about this 10,000 number. Okay. So this is a pretty well known, um, and I’m gonna change this word sales from now to readers,

[00:34:27] Nathan: okay?

[00:34:27] Tim: Okay.

[00:34:28] Nathan: You’re just redefining all aspects of my goal.

[00:34:30] Tim: Yes, yes. Your goal is not 10,000. A hundred thousand sales is 10,000 readers. Okay? And I’m gonna talk about why. So first of all, 10,000 is doable, okay? When we’re talking about your platform, and your platform is not just. Your email list and Twitter following or ex following.

[00:34:48] It’s also all your influencers.

[00:34:50] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:34:50] Tim: This is doable.

[00:34:52] Nathan: Right?

[00:34:52] Tim: Okay. Also, you have two years to sell 10,000 copies. That’s also doable, right? It’s really hard to sell books. Mm-hmm. Like people, like famous people that come out with books, sell 20,000 copies right. When the book comes out. Right. So here’s what’s interesting about the 10,000 number.

[00:35:12] So a mutual friend of ours, Todd Satton. Mm-hmm. Um, went and did like all this research and looked at the numbers and what he found is if you sell 10,000 copies of your book in the first a hundred weeks, that it’s out two years.

[00:35:26] Nathan: Okay.

[00:35:27] Tim: You have basically, it’s like between a 48 and 52% chance, so let’s just say 50 50 chance

[00:35:34] Nathan: mm-hmm.

[00:35:34] Tim: That your book will go on to sell 25,000 copies.

[00:35:38] Nathan: Okay.

[00:35:39] Tim: If your book sells 25,000 copies, it’s roughly a 50 50 chance that your book will go on to sell 50,000 copies, and then if you sell 50,000 copies, the odds of your book going on to sell a hundred thousand copies is 50 50.

[00:35:53] Nathan: Okay?

[00:35:54] Tim: So what that means is you have a one in eight chance.

[00:35:59] Which is pretty good.

[00:36:00] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:36:01] Tim: Of selling a hundred thousand copies If you just sell 10,000 and stop. Mm-hmm. The book will go on to sell this by itself. Mm-hmm. Okay.

[00:36:08] Nathan: That’s this type of graph. Yes. That Josh Kaufman. Yeah. Plenty of other author friends of ours.

[00:36:13] Tim: Yeah.

[00:36:14] Nathan: Have hit.

[00:36:15] Tim: And then the other thing is, because if you can’t buy your way to a hundred thousand mm-hmm.

[00:36:20] The only thing we’re worried about now. Is word of mouth.

[00:36:24] Nathan: Okay.

[00:36:25] Tim: Okay. So I wanna pause here and talk about the quality of the book. Okay. So a lot of people over the years wanted me to take their kind of shitty book Yeah. And turn it into like this huge bestseller. Mm-hmm. Now if I have a big enough platform.

[00:36:44] I can shove out a bunch of books right into the marketplace, but it’s gonna drop off and never sell. Mm-hmm. Because when people read it, if they read it, they never told anybody about it.

[00:36:55] Nathan: Right.

[00:36:55] Tim: Or they were selling a hundred copies at a time and they’re just sitting in boxes in somebody’s closet.

[00:37:01] Nathan: Right.

[00:37:01] Tim: This is why you want readers. Mm-hmm. Not sales.

[00:37:05] Nathan: Okay. I got that. Because if you sell a hundred, gonna underline this.

[00:37:07] Tim: Yeah. Readers is what you’re going for. So the way my partner, Sean Coin at Story Grid, he’s been in publishing forever. He’s the one, I first heard this 10,000 rule, and his rule is, I just need 10,000 people to read the first page of the book.

[00:37:22] Nathan: Okay.

[00:37:22] Tim: That’s all I care about. Okay. 10,000 people to read the first page of the book. So with the quality of the book, whenever I come in as like the marketing guy or people we’re talking about your book, I have to kind of take this stance. That your book’s a great book and you’ve worked really hard to make it a great book, right?

[00:37:41] Because without word of mouth, a book is going to fall off a cliff. Mm-hmm. Even if it sells a ton at the beginning, it’s gonna fall off a cliff. ’cause word of mouth is the only way a book spreads. This is why J Pop Isan and Gary Keller’s book the one thing. Had a big launch in the beginning, fell off, but then kept selling because as people finally got around to reading this book, they bought during the launch, six months later, like one time for my book, running down a dream.

[00:38:06] All of a sudden, six months after it came out, all these books started selling. And I’m like, what is going on? Well, come to find out, my buddy John Acuff was like, he was reading it and like live tweeting it, right. Of how much he loved it. And then I, I like was texting him and I was like giving him shit.

[00:38:23] ’cause I was like, I gave you that book like nine months ago. He’s like, man, it, I just got around to reading it. You know? And that’s what happens with books, right? And so you gotta like, keep going. This is that whole like, keep going for one to two years seeding, getting books out into the marketplace. So what I am focused on for your book is I need to get 10,000 people to read the book.

[00:38:44] ’cause I think if they read your book, they’re gonna love it so much. They’re gonna tell 2, 3, 10 other people about the book. Right. They’re gonna post about it on social media, like, this book’s amazing. You gotta read it. And that’s how 10 years from now, you’ve not just sold a hundred thousand, you’ve sold a million copies.

[00:38:59] Right, right. So it doesn’t matter, like, um, the book, the War of Art, by Stephen Pressfield. In the whole first year it was out, it only sold like 9,000 copies.

[00:39:08] Nathan: Okay.

[00:39:09] Tim: And then since then, it has sold more copies every year than the year before. And this is like, I think it’s approaching 20 years. That book is out.

[00:39:17] Yeah.

[00:39:17] Nathan: It’s gotta be there. So you’re saying like 9,000 copies? Yeah. And then the next year,

[00:39:20] Tim: the next year sold I think like 20,000 copies.

[00:39:22] Nathan: Okay.

[00:39:23] Tim: It just kept going. And they weren’t promoting at all, like, it was Sean, Sean Coin my, my business partner at Story Grid and Steven Pressfield. They, they created the book through Black Irish Publishing and put it out.

[00:39:33] Mm-hmm. They’re, they’re terrible at marketing, so they’re like, I got this thing, and then they just move on. And so they were able to sell 9,000 copies and then the, but the book, everybody talks about the war of art, right? Right. So that’s how you think about like, I want to get 10,000 people to read the first page of my book.

[00:39:52] Within the first two years, you’ve now had a successful launch. And of course, if you can get to 10,000 before two years. Even better. Right? Keep going. Keep promoting the book for two years. Mm-hmm. And then at that point, you’ve launched the book and it’s kind of like your kid turning 18 and leaving the house.

[00:40:08] It’s like at that point it’s like, it’s gonna do what it’s gonna do. This is how Sean and I talk about it. It’s like at that point it’s up to the book, what it wants to do. Mm-hmm. Because. No matter what we talk about here, there are books that just hit at the the right book at the right time that find an audience and they go out into the world and there’s other books that don’t.

[00:40:25] Mm-hmm. And that’s just how it works. So there is magic involved in it, but you have to do this. It, to me, it’s like launching of rocket. Right. No matter how big I push at the beginning, if I stop and it’s only halfway out of the atmosphere, it’s gonna crash every time.

[00:40:39] Nathan: Yep.

[00:40:40] Tim: But if I can get it all the way out of the atmosphere and into orbit mm-hmm.

[00:40:44] And it’s, it pretty much just goes on its own. And this is what’s great about books is that once they start selling and then they keep selling, it takes zero work. Like people talk about, there’s no such thing as real passive income. They’ve not heard of books then because

[00:40:58] Nathan: Josh Kaufman would strongly disagree.

[00:41:00] Tim: Yeah, yeah. Well, I think the thing I always say is every time somebody buys a copy of the Lord of the Rings. Yeah. His family makes money.

[00:41:06] Nathan: Right.

[00:41:07] Tim: And they didn’t do anything for that book. Right. Right. And the publisher, like every 10 years slaps a new cover on it. And that’s all the work they do besides printing enough copies to keep it in stock.

[00:41:16] Nathan: Madeline McIntosh, who’s the CEO of Authors Equity, was telling me yesterday about a, like deluxe edition of, uh, the Jane Austen books.

[00:41:26] Tim: Yeah.

[00:41:26] Nathan: Right. Yeah. You know, and they, it’s a new thing that came out. We were talking about cover design and

[00:41:29] all

[00:41:29] Tim: this. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:41:30] Nathan: You know, you’re like, wait a second. This is a, this is a public domain,

[00:41:32] Tim: public domains.

[00:41:33] Free. Like, but

[00:41:34] Nathan: they’re, they’re finding new ways to keep selling

[00:41:36] Tim: Pride and Prejudice sells hundred, sells hundreds of thousands of copies a year.

[00:41:41] Nathan: Right.

[00:41:41] Tim: And it’s been out for 200 years. Right. Okay. Like people don’t understand and there are books that you have. Okay. My book, your first 1000 copies mm-hmm.

[00:41:51] Makes up over a thousand dollars a month. Mm-hmm. Okay. I wrote it in 2013. This is actually what I get cited about. Right. We can talk about the Lord of the Rings and all the atomic habits. But to me, like what if you write a book that sells like a hundred copies a month?

[00:42:06] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:42:07] Tim: Right. You’re now gonna pay your light bill, your water bill

[00:42:11] Nathan: mm-hmm.

[00:42:11] Tim: Off this thing you created,

[00:42:13] Nathan: right?

[00:42:13] Tim: For many, many, many, many years. And then what if you write another one and another one and another one, right? This is what’s interesting about books is they take zero effort to keep on the market once they’re out in the market.

[00:42:25] Nathan: Right?

[00:42:26] Tim: So if you can write something and get it to this point where it starts selling on its own.

[00:42:31] Nathan: So it’s really how do we achieve escape velocity? Yeah. And the, the critical redefinition. Is that we’re, we’re redefining sales as the goal for escape velocity to readers.

[00:42:40] Tim: Readers, yeah.

[00:42:41] Nathan: Okay. So how do we engineer word of mouth?

[00:42:44] Tim: So we just talked through like these three things and how do we do this? But let’s, let’s take a couple scenarios here.

[00:42:51] Let’s say one, you did this for the launch. Mm-hmm. Right? Um, or let’s say you’re like normal people and you don’t have a platform, right? You don’t have any fans, you’re not connected to influencers. What do I do?

[00:43:01] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:43:02] Tim: So if I could boil this down to like the one thing

[00:43:06] Nathan: mm-hmm.

[00:43:06] Tim: When your book comes out, that if you want, if you believe you wrote a great book mm-hmm.

[00:43:11] You truly believe that. And you want your book to still be selling in 10 years, it’s give away as many copies as possible.

[00:43:19] Nathan: Okay, so that’s a critical redefinition, right? Yes. ’cause I’m like sales and you’re like readers,

[00:43:25] Tim: right? Because give away, remember it was 10,000 people to read the first page of the book.

[00:43:30] Well, now, according to that definition of success, I don’t care if they paid money for it. Mm-hmm. I want them to read the book. And I trust my book to stand on its own. And I trust that if somebody, ’cause the only way to sell a hundred thousand copies or more is to get 10,000 people to read the book and tell their friends, right?

[00:43:54] The barrier to getting people to read the book is often buying the book. So how do I get 10,000 people to read the book? I wanna give as way as many copies as possible, and I am, I do not think there’s a limit on this.

[00:44:06] Nathan: Hmm.

[00:44:07] Tim: I really think that. Like if I had a way to give away a hundred thousand copies of my book when it came out, I would do it because that would get me the next 900,000.

[00:44:18] Nathan: Okay.

[00:44:19] Tim: Right, because word of mouth will kick in. If you get a hundred thousand people to read your book and it’s a great book, you’re gonna sell another 900,000 copies. And so this is actually what we do at Story Grid. Like we have a novel coming out. And I am in the midst of giving away as many copies as I possibly can, but when people sign up to get the free copy, I say, you have to read the book and leave a review on the day that it comes out.

[00:44:43] Okay. I don’t really care about the reviews. That’s nice. To launch with a bunch of Amazon and Good Reads reviews. What I care about is getting thousands of people to read the book before it comes out, because then they’ll start telling their friends, yeah, I trust that our book is so good. They’ll tell people, other people about it.

[00:44:58] Nathan: So they’re agreeing to read. What else matters?

[00:45:02] Tim: So if I were to wave a map, so this is really hard to get people to do like, because they wanna sell books, right? They, especially if they’re traditionally published or they have a publisher who doesn’t make a lot of money when you’re giving away books. And publishers don’t, they don’t believe in their products.

[00:45:19] They’re just throwing them out into the marketplace to see what happens. So they wanna sell, they don’t want to give away 10,000 ’cause they don’t even think it’ll sell 10,000. Mm-hmm. So, but in a perfect world. I would get people to leverage this with their platform

[00:45:33] Nathan: to give

[00:45:33] away,

[00:45:33] Tim: to give away as many copies as possible.

[00:45:35] Nathan: Oh, that’s a tough thing to like, that’s a tough pill to swallow. ’cause you’re like, wait, I have the, you know, my equivalent of the Joe Rogan experience.

[00:45:43] Tim: Yeah.

[00:45:43] Nathan: And you’re saying I should go to those hundreds of thousands of of people and say, here’s a free copy of the book if you agree to read it.

[00:45:51] Tim: I don’t know.

[00:45:51] Do you think your book is good?

[00:45:53] Nathan: I do.

[00:45:53] Tim: Do you think if people will read it, they’ll tell somebody else? Yes. Do you think they’ll tell one person or multiple people?

[00:45:58] Nathan: Multiple. Right. And so, and the other question that I would say in that is like, what’s your time horizon? Right? Are you trying to pull off this?

[00:46:05] Are you trying to pull off this?

[00:46:06] Tim: Yeah. Yeah. I don’t care about this huge spike in the beginning and then I don’t get any sales. This is the, this one where you have a huge spike in the beginning. So you get people to read the book. Mm-hmm. And then they start telling their friends and you start selling lots of copies.

[00:46:19] Mm-hmm. So what I would do if I were wa and you know, James might get mad at me. Your publisher might get mad at me if I were running your launch and you gave me carte blanche, I could do whatever I wanted. I would put the book up for sale on Amazon and through all the normal things for normal price.

[00:46:33] Right. But behind the scenes. Mm-hmm. On every podcast interview I do, every email I send out, here’s a link where you can get a copy of the book for free, for ebook and at cost for print so the publisher’s not losing money. So $5 copy or $10 copy of the book and run that campaign as hard as you possibly can and see how many books you can give away.

[00:46:59] As quickly as possible. So I want to tell a quick story that’ll kind of bring this home, um, some of this. So, because when I start talking about this, a lot of authors are like, well, where do I give copies away? Right, right. So the obvious ones are your platform, your email list, social media. Influencers, that kind of thing.

[00:47:19] But like there’s this great story about, um, the Great Gatsby by f Scott Fitzgerald. That book did not sell well when it came out. Okay. We kind of look at it as like, oh my gosh, this book, you know, it’s incredible. Decades later. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, I pretty sure he died and it was still not selling well, and here’s what happened.

[00:47:37] The army. Wanted to buy a bunch of books and put them on all the bases all over the world. So their, when their sold, when the soldiers weren’t killing people, they had something to do. And so one of those was the Great Gatsby. So all of a sudden, all these soldiers, hundreds of thousands of people got exposed to this book for free.

[00:47:58] Nathan: Right.

[00:47:58] Tim: And now The Great Gatsby is still a huge bestseller. Mm-hmm. So. Finding a place. I had a friend who, uh, wrote a book about like surviving divorce. Mm-hmm. And so she thought, well, where do, where do women go? It was a book for women and it was like, where do women go to talk to their friends about divorce?

[00:48:15] Oh, they go to Starbucks. So she started going in a spiraling circle out from where she lived and would just drop 3, 4, 5 copies off at Starbucks and just lay them out on the tables. And she started seeing sales on Amazon go up. And that was pretty much the only marketing she was doing. And so it was getting the book into the hands of readers who will read the book and then tell their friends about it.

[00:48:38] Nathan: Okay, so what do I do? I’m thinking about giving away as many copies as possible and using the Ladders of Wealth as an example.

[00:48:44] Tim: Yeah.

[00:48:45] Nathan: Right. Because this is a, a very broad appeal book.

[00:48:48] Tim: Yes.

[00:48:48] Nathan: And so then we’re thinking about, okay, how do we, we we don’t have the Army saying, yeah,

[00:48:53] Tim: yeah, yeah.

[00:48:53] Nathan: We’re going to, you know, it has to be something within our control.

[00:48:55] Tim: Yeah.

[00:48:56] Nathan: So the coffee shop example is great. Yeah. What are other places? Of getting the book in, in the hands of potential readers.

[00:49:02] Tim: Well, this is where I would come back and start talking about like, where are, so let’s step outside of your friends. Mm-hmm. Right? So you have your friends that are gonna promote the book, but most people don’t have famous friends.

[00:49:13] Nathan: Right.

[00:49:14] Tim: It’s like, okay, well where are people talking about wealth and money and how to start businesses? Where can I go and say like, Hey, I’ve got this really great book. Um, I’m willing to give away a free copy to everybody on your list if you just send this out to them.

[00:49:30] Nathan: Well, so we’re talking, um, every business school.

[00:49:33] Tim: Mm-hmm.

[00:49:34] Nathan: Right? Of like, you know, if they’re, if we’re, if a marketing class, I’ll come speak to that class, give them, you know, uh, give them all copies of the book. Uh, yeah, there’s so many.

[00:49:44] Tim: Yeah. So this is, you would start brainstorming right about like, okay, I just think of Venn diagrams. Mm-hmm. Here’s Ev, here’s what people are interested in that would be interested in my book.

[00:49:54] Where do those people show up? And I would go all the way back to Seth. I would go read Seth Go’s tribes, right? Mm-hmm. So it’s like you have, you have the big idea. You have the big idea. The tribe leader and the tribe members, right? So if you’re interested in starting a small business, like a laundromat.

[00:50:12] You have Who, who do you think of when I say that?

[00:50:17] Nathan: Starting a laundromat. Yeah. Like, uh, Cody Sanchez. Cody Sanchez.

[00:50:20] Tim: Yeah. Right. Yeah. And so it’s like, so the idea of starting a small business like a laundromat doesn’t belong to Cody Sanchez, but she is the tribe leader that has brought all these people together.

[00:50:31] So it’s like you start thinking through where are tribes located? Um. Oh man, I forgot what book it was, but one book blew up because he just started sending free copies to every CrossFit gym because he found that was it. Oh, it was James. Yeah. He found CrossFit. People loved his book, atomic Habits, and so he started promoting it specifically to CrossFit gyms and CrossFitters.

[00:50:55] Yep. And he found this whole like infrastructure around it. Right. So it’s figuring out who likes your book. When they read it, where do those people congregate? How can I get

[00:51:06] Nathan: copies? Their, you know, what I thinking about is this might be people who are further on in their journey. Um, but for a book like The Latters of Wealth, I could go to every wealth manager, CFA, all of those people and say, Hey, uh, as a Christmas gift, I would love to give you free copies that you can give to your clients.

[00:51:26] Tim: Yeah,

[00:51:27] Nathan: here’s the ebook version or here, you know, whatever. Um, and

[00:51:29] Tim: if you wanna spend money. This is the way to spend money,

[00:51:32] Nathan: right?

[00:51:33] Tim: Buy copies of your own book. If you don’t have a traditional publisher, you can usually get copies of your book for like mm-hmm. Three to $6. Right? That’s a good way to spend the money is six,

[00:51:45] Nathan: $6,000 gets you a thousand

[00:51:48] Tim: copies, a thousand books that

[00:51:49] Nathan: you can give away of a beautiful book that, yeah.

[00:51:51] I love that. Okay. This is amazing. This is a total reframe for me on how to think about it, and it really comes down to not just the two year, uh, time horizon around launch, but really then the 10 year time horizon around what is this book going to do and not what am I optimizing for in the short term?

[00:52:08] Tim: Well, the point, the biggest point is if I can get 10,000 people to read the book

[00:52:12] Nathan: mm-hmm.

[00:52:13] Tim: In the first 10, two years. Mm-hmm. That is my best shot. Going on to sell a hundred thousand or more copies over the next 10 years.

[00:52:21] Nathan: Yep. I love that. Okay. This is amazing. Uh, Tim, you’ve shared so much.

[00:52:25] Tim: Yep.

[00:52:26] Nathan: The first thing is, this is not what you do

[00:52:28] Tim: anymore.

[00:52:28] Yeah. Don’t hire me. I don’t do this anymore. Like, I only do it for my friends, so if you don’t know me, I don’t want to do it. Yeah. This is, so, I mean, I have a website, uh, book launch.com. I haven’t updated in a while, but I got tons of free content there that talks about stuff. And you, you can buy a copy

[00:52:42] Nathan: of your

[00:52:43] Tim: first 1000, your first 1000 copies.

[00:52:44] Go to, uh, YouTube and look up your, or Amazon and look up your first 1000 copies. Buy that book. Um, it’s a really great book. Perennial bestseller. Yep. It’s been selling for 12 years now. So, and then

[00:52:56] Nathan: also the, the other topic separate from this that you’re obsessed with

[00:52:59] Tim: Yeah.

[00:52:59] Nathan: Is how to write great books, how to Write, and you cover that in detail at storygrid.com.

[00:53:03] Tim: At story grid.com.

[00:53:04] Nathan: That’s amazing. Thanks so much for coming on.

[00:53:06] Tim: Yeah, thanks for having me.