[00:00:00] Chris: Personal brand is about who you are, understanding your voice in this world, your values, and being able to communicate that. It’s devoid of you trying to make money.

[00:00:08] Nathan: Chris Do is an expert when it comes to personal brand. He’s an Emmy award-winning designer and founder of The Futur, which has grown to 2.8 million subscribers on YouTube.

[00:00:16] Chris: If you wanna develop your personal brand, you need to know what your keyword is, what you want to be associated with. So when people think of this word, they think of me. The vast majority of people who speak about personal brand, the 99.9% of them, I’d argue they’re not working on their personal brand at all.

[00:00:31] Nathan: What are they working on?

[00:00:32] Chris: They’re working on their marketing funnel, calling it a personal brand.

[00:00:35] Nathan: It actually all starts with figuring out who you are outside of what you’ve built. Do

[00:00:39] Chris: you feel like you know who you are, your identity? Um, I- Can we get real vulnerable?

[00:00:44] Nathan: Yeah,

[00:00:44] Chris: we can do that.

[00:00:45] Nathan: Partway through this episode, he actually turns the interview around and he starts coaching me.

[00:00:49] Chris: I’m asking the questions now. Yeah, you’re in charge. I want to write in your notebook. I wanna map some of this. Okay. In case something comes out.

[00:00:55] Nathan: This was one of the most special episodes I’ve ever recorded on this show, and it’s because of how Chris shows up and the things that he teaches for you to change how you show up as a creator.

[00:01:05] Chris: Have you shared this before?

[00:01:06] Nathan: Uh…

[00:01:07] Chris: Oh, my gosh. This is gonna be a juicy episode. You said we were, we’re not gonna go that deep, but we’re gonna go deep, okay?

[00:01:14] Nathan: No, actually,

[00:01:15] Chris: I see it the complete opposite. Thanks for sharing that story and for being real with me.

[00:01:18] Nathan: Thanks for drawing it out.

[00:01:19] Chris: Oh, we’re not done with the drawing yet.

[00:01:25] Nathan: Chris, welcome to the show.

[00:01:26] Chris: Thanks, Nathan.

[00:01:26] Nathan: Something that you talk a lot about is personal brand.

[00:01:28] Chris: Mm-hmm.

[00:01:29] Nathan: And I know a lot of people, and we probably both do, who put tons of effort into their personal brand and don’t feel like they’re getting attention and eyeballs on it, like, and it, and that it’s actually resonating.

[00:01:39] Chris: Mm-hmm.

[00:01:39] Nathan: You have this phrase that I’ve heard you say of un-bland yourself.

[00:01:42] Chris: Yes.

[00:01:43] Nathan: What does that mean?

[00:01:43] Chris: Okay. Well, I, I will tell you the origin of where that idea or word comes from. A, a friend of mine, he’s a luminary in the design space. His name is Brian Collins. He has an agency, agency of the year kind of stuff, and he, he has a playful way of talking about things.

[00:01:59] He’s like, “You know, it’s not called blanding, it’s branding,” and he makes fun of all these other big multi-million dollar agencies who are doing very high-end brand work, and he goes, “It’s so boring, blah, blah, blah. It’s all the same.” Right. And he wants to inject personality, humor, fun, a point of view, and so I keep thinking about that, and then hard stop, I, I look at people and how they show up online, and we’re all kind of insecure about who we are- Mm-hmm

[00:02:25] in real life, even more so online. So what we do is we follow certain templates or mandates, so, so to speak, from people who tell us this is how we’re supposed to be.

[00:02:35] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:02:35] Chris: There’s a, an averageness, a sameness that we aspire towards, which is really strange to me. And so everyone is just blending in. So we need to stand out, and to, to summarize what, what branding is, it’s differentiation.

[00:02:48] How are you different than your competitors? Mm. ‘Cause that’s the only thing people remember. An undifferentiated product in the market space is called a commodity.

[00:02:56] Nathan: Right.

[00:02:57] Chris: If I can’t tell the difference between one phone to the next, I just buy purely on specs and price at that point, and you’ve lost the battle.

[00:03:04] The, the ongoing debate, not debate, but the observation is Apple has a brand. Dell doesn’t. Because, uh, for Dell, all we do is we look at the price point and the features Right There’s no feeling. We have no loyalty to them. Mm-hmm. We don’t go and extol their vir- virtues to everybody else. We don’t wear Dell T-shirts.

[00:03:22] We don’t put their stickers on our other products. We don’t brag to our friends. We don’t shun our friends who don’t use Dell products. Dell sells a machine. Right A very good machine at a great price point, and I’m appreciative of that, but they don’t really have a brand. So people who are out there trying to create content, I think they fall into Dell camp.

[00:03:39] Mm-hmm. Serviceable, highly forgettable. So what we have to do is we have to lean into what makes us different. We have to un-bland ourselves.

[00:03:47] Nathan: I saw someone … I, I saw this play out on X the other day, where someone was like, “Look, I need a new monitor. I can buy the Apple monitor for, whatever, $2,500-” Right … or something, or I can buy the Dell monitor that’s the same size, same specs,” you know, the

[00:04:02] There’s probably some differences, but to them, you know, they’re comparing specs, “Or I can buy this for, like, $700.” Yeah. “Like, which one should I buy?”

[00:04:07] Chris: Right.

[00:04:08] Nathan: And you, if you looked in the comments, probably a third of it was about specs, and a third o- like, a third or more was about, like, identity, brand, who you are.

[00:04:18] Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm Like, you know, that sort of thing. Where it was like, you know, or pe- people would say things like, “Well, you make lots of money in your business, so, like, just buy the Apple,” you know? Yeah. Like, and all of that, and you realize, like- You

[00:04:27] Chris: can afford it …

[00:04:27] Nathan: all, all Dell has going for it is specs and price.

[00:04:30] Chris: Right.

[00:04:30] Nathan: And that was the only thing.

[00:04:31] Chris: Yeah. Are you familiar with Maslow’s hierarchy of needs?

[00:04:34] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:04:35] Chris: Okay, we talk about that, and, and I think it’s withstood the test of time, that we can kind of almost say that there’s some truth to this, right? Mm-hmm. At the bottom is survival. What’s at the top of Maslow’s hierarchy of needs?

[00:04:45] Nathan: Self-actualization.

[00:04:46] Chris: Mm-hmm. What does that even mean?

[00:04:48] Nathan: I, I don’t know

[00:04:49] Chris: Right. It’s kind of a little bit strange, right? It’s vague. Yeah. And I think it’s to achieve your human potential or something like that. Mm-hmm. And it’s a very difficult concept to understand, but if I were to describe it to you differently, maybe it’ll be more memorable and we can see some truth in that.

[00:05:04] Hermosa talks about the three things that you need to sell to people; health, wealth, and relationships.

[00:05:08] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:05:09] Chris: Make me stronger, faster, better, let me live longer, make my skin perfect, that would be under the health category.

[00:05:15] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:05:15] Chris: Above that is wealth. Uh, wealth is, like, generate more money, give me more freedom.

[00:05:21] And then above that is relationships, and help me to improve my relationships with my partner, with my, uh, with my spirituality or something like that. There’s something there, my community. And then he stops there. Like, no, there’s more to that. There really is, and I think he talks about it, but he didn’t build into it.

[00:05:39] So at the bottom is health, above that is wealth, above that is relationships, and then I think he’s just missing two categories. Status.

[00:05:46] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:05:47] Chris: Which is I’m signaling to people all the time about who I am.

[00:05:51] Nathan: Right.

[00:05:52] Chris: And, and above that is identity. Who am I? So it maps perfectly to Maslow’s hierarchy of needs- Mm-hmm

[00:05:59] ’cause at the bottom, survival, health, and at the top, self-actualization or identity. Who am I? So I think that’s the big question of our lifetime is who am I in this lifetime? Did what I do, did it make a difference in this world? Do I matter? I think when we fast-forward to 100 years from now when you’re almost ready to die, you will ask yourself- Did I matter?

[00:06:20] Mm-hmm. And if the answer’s no, it’s kind of a sad existence. And so the thing about status and identity ties into branding. So when I buy an Apple monitor, it’s not like I need specs or I need- Right … to have a screen, it’s because, well, who am I? Am I a person of taste? Mm-hmm. Am I successful enough to afford a luxury like a monitor that’s cost three to four times as much as the other comparable monitor?

[00:06:46] I am. And I’m an aesthetic person, so I care about what things look like, not just how they function. Mm-hmm. And there’s a joy in the moments in which you unpack, open, and look at this thing every single day, that you remind yourself, “I did it.”

[00:06:59] Nathan: Right. ”

[00:06:59] Chris: And I proved the naysayers wrong, and I can have these things.”

[00:07:02] And you can take this across the spectrum from water to pizza to cars. Everything you do or buy says something about you, and this is how we’re signaling to other people our status and our identity. It’s a really important thing for us to start to understand because we’ve moved into a time in which there’s abundance, and we live longer, we have more things, and there’s less to kill us.

[00:07:23] And so we start to move towards the higher, uh, the, the top of the tier of Maslow’s hierarchy of needs.

[00:07:29] Nathan: Is there a brand that you can think of, uh, either as an individual or, you know, like a, a corporation that has made that shift from, you know, the Dell to the Apple?

[00:07:38] Chris: Target.

[00:07:38] Nathan: Okay.

[00:07:39] Chris: Target’s a great case study.

[00:07:40] Nathan: Tar-jay.

[00:07:41] Chris: Yeah, Tar-jay. Um, I remember growing up not having a lot of money.

[00:07:45] Nathan: Yep.

[00:07:46] Chris: So there are discount dis- big box stores that if you were seen in, it would signal to other people that your parents aren’t doing well. Right. Like for us it was Kmart.

[00:07:54] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:07:54] Chris: And my parents and, um, you know, I’m an immigrant. Being immigrants, we, we wanna bargain.

[00:07:59] We don’t wanna pay for a brand. It doesn’t make any sense. And it was always a running joke in junior high or elementary like, “Oh, you guys shop at Kmart.” I’m like, “God dang it, we do.” Yeah, you’re right. It’s so shameful. Yeah. The blue light special, like how do we get around this? Yeah. And you know, my mom’s sage advice was, “Why are you so afraid of being seen at Kmart?”

[00:08:16] Nathan: Mm-hmm. ”

[00:08:17] Chris: Because if they see you, you have equal ammunition.” And I’m like, “Mom, that’s just not how it works.” Oh, because- I know that’s a logical- … because her point

[00:08:22] Nathan: is

[00:08:22] Chris: like- Yeah, it’s like- … yeah,

[00:08:23] Nathan: we’re both at

[00:08:23] Chris: Kmart. We’re both at Kmart. You sign here. Right? It’s like how can you tell people, “‘Cause how did you see me?”

[00:08:27] Right. Right? But in my emotional, undeveloped brain, I’m like, “It don’t matter.” Right. “Now people are gonna know.” And Target is Kmart. With brand.

[00:08:37] Nathan: Hmm.

[00:08:38] Chris: Okay? If you look at Kmart, Kmart pushes discount, best price. The same thing with, um, what is that, uh, Walmart.

[00:08:44] Nathan: Yep.

[00:08:44] Chris: It’s always the best prices. Right. Like, the blue light special or whatever they’re promoting, the smiley face guy.

[00:08:50] Nathan: Yep.

[00:08:50] Chris: Target went a different direction. They’re saying, like, like, affordable quality or affordable luxuries. That’s what they wanna be able- Yeah … to create. So instead of just pumping out cheap OEM white label things, they partner with legitimate designers, architects- Mm-hmm … industrial designers, and people with a brand name, and then they’re able to use their distribution, their manufacturing power, their buying power to get you, it’s something that is a higher quality for a decent price.

[00:09:17] Nathan: Right.

[00:09:17] Chris: So they shift the emphasis away from it being cheap to it being good and affordable, which changes the narrative.

[00:09:23] Nathan: If you walk through… You know, I’m thinking about seeing something from, like- Mm-hmm … Chip and Joanna Gaines in the home goods section- Mm-hmm … at Target, right? And it’s well-branded, it’s well-positioned.

[00:09:31] It’s not very expensive.

[00:09:33] Chris: No.

[00:09:33] Nathan: You know? It’s probably more than the equivalent whatever item would be at Walmart or that sort of thing, but it, it has design and taste and, and all of that too, and it’s partnered with someone who has brand.

[00:09:43] Chris: And they’ve done this for decades.

[00:09:44] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:09:44] Chris: We’re aware of it now, but when I was in school, go to Target, they had ar- famous architect Michael Graves design a set of home goods.

[00:09:52] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:09:53] Chris: So Michael Graves doesn’t do this, I mean, he’s an architect, but they got his perspective. And I think they’ve been doing this for a really long time, and you can see this. And then they did the thing with, I think, Martha Stewart or-

[00:10:04] Nathan: Right …

[00:10:04] Chris: you know, they, they bring in big name brand people who have a sense for design.

[00:10:08] Hopefully it’s not just them signing off on things they have no involvement in, we hope.

[00:10:13] Nathan: Right.

[00:10:14] Chris: But in theory, you buy a higher quality product at, at a good price. So they, they s- there’s an expression that good design doesn’t cost more.

[00:10:23] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:10:23] Chris: It’s the, uh, it’s bad design that costs more, ’cause it doesn’t work.

[00:10:26] And so what you’re paying for is the idea, but the manufacturing- The amount of plastic or wood that goes into a product’s literally the same, so you don’t have to reinvent all that stuff.

[00:10:35] Nathan: Right. Yeah, it’s interesting, as it goes back to identity, as you’re talking about, like, what kind of person shops in each place or, or all of that.

[00:10:42] Thinking about Kit as a brand, something that we’ve tried to do a lot of is … Some of the other players in the space are very much about, like, make money online. Like, it’s starting to get into some get rich quick vibes.

[00:10:54] Chris: Mm-hmm.

[00:10:55] Nathan: Right? And we’ve alway- obviously, email and a newsletter is a fantastic way to make money, but you’ll never hear us say, “Make money,” you’ll always hear us say, “Earn a living.”

[00:11:04] Right? Or you’ll … We’ll always talk about the value provided, right? As a c- as a creator on Kit, all of our messaging is about you serve your audience, and then you’re taken care of as part of that, rather than, like, your audience is a, an ATM, where it’s when you just need some money, you launch something and, and go from there.

[00:11:23] Yeah. ‘Cause I always think about Seth Godin’s line of, like, “People like us do things like this.” And so really trying to differentiate a Kit creator from any other platform.

[00:11:33] Chris: Yeah. It, it’s hard. When you start to sell into, excuse me, wealth-

[00:11:37] Nathan: Mm-hmm …

[00:11:38] Chris: then you’re on the second tier. You should strive to move towards status and identity.

[00:11:43] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:11:44] Chris: And so there’s the five whys. Why do you do something? And if you keep asking that question, you’ll find a commonality between the people who are your customers and the people who are not. And so people sell features usually, then they move to benefits, which may be what you’re talking about, which is earn a living.

[00:12:00] Right. But then we would need to tor- move towards meaning. So it’s like why is it important for you to earn a living?

[00:12:06] Nathan: Because you need to take care of your family.

[00:12:08] Chris: That would be one. What else?

[00:12:09] Nathan: Yeah. Uh, anything you wanna buy. Uh-

[00:12:12] Chris: Okay …

[00:12:12] Nathan: home, so yeah.

[00:12:13] Chris: Yeah.

[00:12:14] Nathan: All those things.

[00:12:14] Chris: Yeah. What else? Anything else?

[00:12:17] Nathan: Uh-

[00:12:17] Chris: Why do we need to earn a living?

[00:12:19] Nathan: Uh, I-

[00:12:19] Chris: And sometimes there are not always good reasons, by the way. Sometimes- Yeah … they’re bad reasons, and it’s, it’s a good reason that is bad, but …

[00:12:25] Nathan: A good reason that is bad.

[00:12:26] Chris: Yeah.

[00:12:27] Nathan: Our whole society runs around money, and so needing The, I mean, that is, that is the currency that everyone- Yeah … operates in.

[00:12:34] Chris: Yeah. So we could say something like, mm, make your ex regret

[00:12:39] Nathan: leaving you. Right.

[00:12:41] Chris: That could be a reason. Show up- That’s a bad reason. That’s a good reason.

[00:12:44] Nathan: Yeah. Right? Show up to your 10-year, 20-year high school reunion driving some fancy car, and everyone’s like, y- you know.

[00:12:50] Chris: Yeah. Right.

[00:12:51] Nathan: You know, trying to prove someone wrong or whatever it is,

[00:12:54] Chris: right?

[00:12:54] That’s

[00:12:54] Nathan: right.

[00:12:55] Chris: So we have to look at people’s motivations, like, uh, prove your brother-in-law wrong.

[00:12:59] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:13:00] Chris: Or maybe, um, go on that dream vacation-

[00:13:04] Nathan: Right …

[00:13:04] Chris: that you’ve always wanted, and stop- And, yeah … stop cutting coupons.

[00:13:07] Nathan: Right.

[00:13:08] Chris: I mean, there’s a lot of different human motivations, so we can say we’re gonna earn a living, and in specific campaigns- Mm-hmm

[00:13:14] you can talk a little bit more about this deeper idea, right? ‘

[00:13:18] Nathan: Cause there’s a huge status element-

[00:13:19] Chris: Yes …

[00:13:20] Nathan: to what, what you spend, right? Especially now with social media, where the… It’s the vacation for a lot of people is not actually about am I enjoying the time and the moment where I am. It’s about do I have the right photo to post to signal- Mm-hmm

[00:13:36] that I’m the kind of person who can spend a month in Bali doing, you know, doing whatever, to then get me the brand deals so that I can, you know, whatever else.

[00:13:45] Chris: Yeah. I, I think that is a different kind of status- Okay … that is pretty hollow.

[00:13:51] Nathan: Yeah. Okay.

[00:13:51] Chris: And, and we know that, so it’s like, uh, the joke is like, um, did you work out today if you didn’t post on social?

[00:13:58] Of course you did, but, you know, we gotta make sure everybody knows that we’re at, um, the box gym or whatever- Right … and we, we’re doing what we need to do. So can I get back to one of the questions- Oh, yeah … you were asking about- Do it … like a lot of people working on their personal brand and it’s not going anywhere?

[00:14:10] Nathan: Yep.

[00:14:11] Chris: I’d argue they’re not working on their personal brand at all.

[00:14:13] Nathan: What are they working on?

[00:14:14] Chris: They’re working on their marketing funnel, calling it a personal brand, ’cause everything put out is a disguised, not well disguised ad for a product or service they sell. And this is what they do, because they follow and emulate what everyone else is doing.

[00:14:28] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:14:28] Chris: E- every piece of content is a pitch to, like, “And if you want my downloadable, if you want this, you want that.” It’s always that. In order for me… Okay, let me step back.

[00:14:38] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:14:38] Chris: Um, personal brand and the word brand has become quite popular. I think marketing’s great. I think sales is great. I think funnel design’s great, but it don’t sound that sexy right now.

[00:14:48] And so those same people have decided to call it this n- new buzzword, which is personal branding. Yep. They’re, they’re really te- just teaching you conversion design, learning how to do the customer journey, about how to run marketing campaigns. It’s really not about personal brand. But I find that the vast majority of people who speak about personal brand, the 99.9% of them are in this space where they’re really just using the words advertising, marketing, funnel design, conversions, and they’re using the wrong label.

[00:15:18] Nathan: Okay. ‘

[00:15:18] Chris: Cause maybe they’re ashamed of what they do- Right … or they’re just chasing the next buzzword. So in that church of personal branding, I am an outlier. I’m a blasphemer. I’m the Antichrist. Yeah. Okay? This is who I am because I’m thinking personal brand is about who you are, understanding your voice in this world, your values, and being able to communicate that.

[00:15:37] It’s devoid of you trying to make money And so I think they’re going on one pursuit without understanding what that pursuit is. Yep. They’re executing the wrong plan, following the wrong leaders, and, and that’s really the problem. People come to me in my workshops, it’s personal branding. They’re like, “Chris, how do we sell more?”

[00:15:54] Yeah. Like, man, I’m sorry, friend, there’s no refunds, but that’s not what we’re gonna do here. We’re gonna get into your shadow work, we’re gonna understand your voice phrase, understand who you are in this lifetime, lean into your vulnerabilities, and to be able to be able to surface them and share them with the world because right now you’re just masking.

[00:16:11] Nathan: Well, so that’s something I wanted to ask about- Yeah … is that a lot of people think that personal brand is about what they post, right? And I’ve heard you say that, like, all the real work in personal brand is internal.

[00:16:22] Chris: It is.

[00:16:22] Nathan: Like, w- and you, you mentioned shadow work, you mentioned- Yes … like, what do you…

[00:16:25] Let’s dive into that. What do you mean?

[00:16:26] Chris: Well, all right. Oh my gosh. This is gonna be a juicy episode. You said we we’re not gonna go that deep, but we’re gonna go real deep, okay? I think there’s this period in your lifetime, I would guess between three years old and nine, that you are who you really are- Okay

[00:16:39] in this lifetime. And through a lot of socializing and conditioning, that person is washed away and you become very homogenized with society. I’ll give you example. Let’s say you like to pick your nose. I know I’m saying that’s who you are, that’s not your identity, but that’s what you do. And somebody say, “Eh, that’s gross.

[00:16:56] Don’t do that.” And then you talk really loud. Let’s use our inside voice. So the entire process of growing up into adulthood is someone shaving off all the edges and- Yep … sanding you down until you’re this, like, shiny river stone. Cool. Or river rock. And then you get out into the world, and then you enter a next phase, which is, “I’ve finished college, I’m going to work.”

[00:17:16] Guess what? We wear the corporate uniform. It’s jacket and tie. It’s only casual Fridays. “This is what you need to do. This is how you say things. This is how you move up in the world.” So we’re very much trained by society to fit into a very specific box. And we’ve learned very early on if we’re different, we’re weird, and we’re doing things, they label you weird, different, a freak.

[00:17:35] Yeah. “Get away from me, freak.” Right? Yeah. Like, if you’re into chess and everyone’s into football, they’re like, “You’re a nerd loser,” and they’ll say much, m-

[00:17:43] Nathan: Much

[00:17:43] Chris: nicer things than that … less nice, yeah, much worse things. Yeah. Oh, yeah, they’re gonna be horrible. And all you’re searching for is belongingness.

[00:17:48] Mm-hmm. The relationships, third tier, and you’re like, “This is terrible. I don’t wanna do this. This is too painful for me,” because you don’t have identity yet. And so you keep pretending to be someone long enough, and you forget who the real you is. So m- my task, I think my purpose in this life, is to be able to help individuals like yourself remember who you were.

[00:18:11] Mm. ‘Cause this is the pursuit of your lifetime. And to be able to lean into all that stuff that you thought was so weird that you’ve put it away into a little box, and you hid it into the attic of your mind, and you never look at it again. So much so that it scares you to see it. It really does. We’re so trained to make other people happy, to fit in, that we don’t know what it means to be ourselves anymore.

[00:18:33] Nathan: So y- yeah, you talked about how, um, how everyone’s born weird, right? There’s all those-

[00:18:38] Chris: We’re born us. We’re labeled weird. Y-

[00:18:39] Nathan: yeah, exactly.

[00:18:40] Chris: Yes.

[00:18:41] Nathan: So what, what does it look like first to do the work to bring that back out- Yeah … and to be like, “Oh, I actually don’t need to, uh, dress the same, act the same”- Yeah

[00:18:50] like grab for belonging wherever, you know, someone might offer a single shred of it. And then, like first to do that work, and then second to actually show that outwardly when it comes out in something like brand or the things you’re standing for.

[00:19:04] Chris: Here’s the, here’s the interesting thing. How, how… Do you mind me asking how old you are?

[00:19:07] Nathan: I’m 35.

[00:19:08] Chris: Very young man, 35 years old. About to turn

[00:19:10] Nathan: 36.

[00:19:11] Chris: Damn. 35. I’m 54, so we invert the ages a little bit. You’re just still a year younger than me, which is not cool. I’m just gonna say that. Okay. Do you feel like you know who you are, your identity?

[00:19:23] Nathan: Um.

[00:19:25] Chris: Can we get r- vulnerable?

[00:19:26] Nathan: Yeah, we can do that. Let’s go.

[00:19:28] Chris: Chelsea’s looking at me like, “Oh, God, go here.”

[00:19:30] Nathan: Chelsea, I like

[00:19:31] Chris: it. The fourth one, but ask him this. Yeah,

[00:19:32] Nathan: exactly. Yeah. So let’s do it.

[00:19:35] Chris: I’m asking the questions now.

[00:19:37] Nathan: Yeah, you’re in charge.

[00:19:38] Chris: Yeah.

[00:19:38] Nathan: Do I feel like I know who I am?

[00:19:40] Chris: Yeah.

[00:19:41] Nathan: Um, I- it’s a constant thing that I’m working on.

[00:19:44] Chris: Okay.

[00:19:44] Nathan: Um, but I know a lot of things that matter to me.

[00:19:49] Chris: Okay. That’s an interesting way of you answering that question. What percentage of knowing this do you think you’re at? ‘Cause you’re like, “I’m trying to figure things out.” Oh. I know it’s impossible to say- Yeah … but what percentage do you think? I mean,

[00:19:58] Nathan: I feel like, so it’s one of those things where, uh, so I’ve- my, my oldest is a teenager now, and so it’s always thinking about, you know, like, no one knows as much as a teenager, right?

[00:20:09] Yeah. You know? And so we’re in that phase of watching it. And so I feel like the more I know, or the more I understand, the less I know. Yeah. And so, I don’t know, we’ll say 20, 25%.

[00:20:17] Chris: Okay. Yeah. That, that’s a fair number.

[00:20:19] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:20:19] Chris: Okay. And so as you’re searching for this, and I’m curious if there was a life event that happened- Mm-hmm

[00:20:24] where you started to feel more yourself.

[00:20:27] Nathan: Yeah. I, I got shingles. Got super- Oh … um, at, how old was I? 24. And,

[00:20:34] Chris: uh- That was like last year. Keep going.

[00:20:37] Nathan: And, uh, yeah. And then I ended up, I had all of my identity tied up in what I had accomplished.

[00:20:44] Chris: Okay.

[00:20:45] Nathan: And I was very good at what I did, right? Mm-hmm. And so, you know, I was 24 making a quarter million dollars a year.

[00:20:52] I had an audience, I had all these things, productive, all of that. And after getting shingles, uh, and being on painkillers from that, I lost my ability to work. Oh. And I would sit down at my computer and my brain would just not function. And I talk a lot about, like, flywheels and virtuous cycles. Mm-hmm. Uh, everyone forgets those spin the other way, too, right?

[00:21:14] Yeah. There’s, there is a vicious cycle there.

[00:21:16] Chris: Mm-hmm.

[00:21:17] Nathan: And I had so much of my, of my identity tied up in- what I could accomplish.

[00:21:21] Chris: Mm.

[00:21:22] Nathan: That when I would sit down and couldn’t get a task done in front of me, then it just spiraled from there. And, and so the worse I felt about myself, obviously, the the, the wor- worse I performed and all that.

[00:21:36] Mm-hmm. So I ended up spending at least six months, like, deeply depressed, and then, and it probably took me two years to come out of it.

[00:21:45] Chris: Okay.

[00:21:45] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:21:46] Chris: That’s real interesting.

[00:21:47] Nathan: That was a, that was a transformative moment.

[00:21:49] Chris: Not the answer I expected, but a good one. Yeah.

[00:21:51] Nathan: Okay.

[00:21:51] Chris: A really good one because a lot of people, and I, I would say, like, oftentimes men more-

[00:21:57] Nathan: Mm-hmm

[00:21:57] Chris: um, we form our identities around the things we do, our utility into the world. Yeah. And the, and society- So I’m a bad guy … tells us this, right? Yeah. It’s like you are more attractive as a potential mate in- because you’re more useful. You, you have more utility.

[00:22:11] Nathan: Yep.

[00:22:11] Chris: And so you don’t have to be the smartest or the best looking.

[00:22:13] You,

[00:22:14] Nathan: you can make money. You

[00:22:15] Chris: can- But if you can do things …

[00:22:15] Nathan: remodel the house.

[00:22:16] Chris: Yes. You can do whatever else. You can fix the toilet. Yeah, exactly. It’s basic things. And unclog the drain.

[00:22:20] Nathan: Right.

[00:22:20] Chris: You’re useful, and that’s what we identify as. And so when you strip that away, your job, your title, well, who am I? And that becomes a real dilemma.

[00:22:30] I’ve noticed that people, as they get older, and men, again, when they retire and they don’t do anything anymore, their life value, their life force starts to diminish really fast.

[00:22:40] Nathan: Oh, yeah.

[00:22:40] Chris: They have no more purpose, and they haven’t developed, like, real hobbies or real relationships. A lot of entrepreneurs when they

[00:22:45] Nathan: sell their companies end up-

[00:22:46] Chris: They’re lost

[00:22:47] in this

[00:22:47] Nathan: place, yeah.

[00:22:47] Chris: Right. And, and they will start to deteriorate their health. I, I’m seeing it in my own father, kind of watching it in somewhat real time, is that once he retired, his body’s starting to fall apart. I’m like, “Dang, what happened?” Yeah. ‘Cause he was this vital person who would like, “I, I’ll fix this, I’ll carry this,” and now he’s a lot weaker.

[00:23:03] I know that’s just part of aging, but I think he’s lost a little bit of his purpose and his identity. And this is why I think it’s so important to figure out who you are, okay? And so a lot of times people will say, “I wanna work on my personal brand.” I’m like, “Well, who are you?” “Well, I’m the plumber,” “I’m the electrician,” “I’m the computer science guy.”

[00:23:19] I’m like, “No, no, no, not what you do. Who are you?” Mm. It’s a question that we’re afraid to answer because we don’t know. It’s like staring into the void, and that unknowingness creates great anxiety within us. But I think that’s a pretty good sign to go and shine the light on the darkness to see what’s there.

[00:23:36] So outside of you running your company, winning your awards, the accomplishments and the, the zeros you’ve added to your account, who are you? Who are you in this lifetime? Uh, I always screw this part up because I mix the two. And usually when I’m doing a presentation, it’s this Picasso quote. Of course, one of my favorite artists of all time, like, a, a, like a real maverick person in being able to do what he does, said something like this: “Purpose of life is to discover your gift, and the meaning is to give it away.”

[00:24:04] The meaning of life.

[00:24:05] Nathan: Hmm.

[00:24:06] Chris: So we have to figure out what our gift is. And we think it’s something we have to invent or to find, but I’ll add to that quote saying, “You are the gift.” I believe each and every single one of us is born by design or by divine being to have a unique combination of things that make you really powerful.

[00:24:25] But what we do is we forget those unique, interesting things, and then we conform to what everybody else is doing. So we’re purposely handicapping ourselves. I’ll give you an example. My nephew, he’s autistic, and when he, when we’re… We didn’t know at the beginning ’cause he was like, hmm, he’s not looking at me.

[00:24:41] There’s some interesting behavior going on. Or he’ll come up, he gives you a weird sideways hug. He doesn’t really touch you. Hmm. So there’s some kind of physical challenges there. Or he’ll punch you. I’m like, “Bro, what are you doing?” Uh, you know. But once- Yeah … we knew he was, he was autistic, we’re like, okay, we can talk to him very differently.

[00:24:58] And it turns out, like recently, he and his friends won a math champion- or they, they came in second place in the, like, district championship at math. I’m like, damn. So if we measure him against what society considers normal and good and virtuous- Right … he’s doing terrible. Yeah. But if we just look at he’s really into science, he knows all the planets and geography, and he’s really freaking great with numbers, I’m like, yeah, that’s his gift.

[00:25:21] And so the, the job, the duty of all parents is to forget about what you want and what you didn’t accomplish in your life. Stop trying to live vicariously through your children. Stop fixing your mistakes through them, but to honor them for who they are and to say like, “I need to support whatever this is,” and not to have any preconceived ideas.

[00:25:39] And I think that’s the beautiful part, and that’s the challenge of parents to say, “I had ideas of success for my children.” Mm-hmm. “I gotta let that go because they get to live their life. I had my shot, and I need to break the cycle.”

[00:25:51] Nathan: Right. How do you answer that question for yourself, of who are you?

[00:25:55] Chris: Don’t turn to…

[00:25:56] I’m asking the questions Yeah. What are you doing? Um- Well, we’ll take a turn right about- Who am I? Uh, I see my identity as a person who’s, who is, who observes things-

[00:26:06] Nathan: Okay …

[00:26:06] Chris: and, and thinks about ’em. Maybe not as profound as S- Seth or Seth Godin or someone else. Right. But I think about things, and I, I, I, I want to be able to express these ideas in as many forms as I want.

[00:26:18] Mm. Sometimes it helps people, sometimes it does nothing for them. But I’m on this pursuit of being the artist, and it’s an identity I’ve denied myself for a really long time because I’m a designer, and there’s a big difference between design and art. Mm. But now, as I’m creating content, I do it for myself.

[00:26:36] Really

[00:26:36] Nathan: interesting. And what, what’s the difference between design and art?

[00:26:38] Chris: An, an artist, and I, I love this, art is a invitation to look at the world from a different perspective. Mm. And ar- artists have emotions and feelings about things. They create it, whether it be music or sculpture or painting, and if you experience a similar emotion, it’s good art.

[00:26:53] Nathan: Okay.

[00:26:54] Chris: So if we look at it like that. Design is, is a process of achieving an outcome for a specific goal. So it’s not about what I want to say about the world. It’s like, you have a problem, I need to solve that problem. You’re trying to get this kind of customer, or you’re trying to create this kind of feeling in your brand.

[00:27:09] This is what I try to design for you. The mistake that designers make is they think they’re artists. It’s about my vision, my perspective, and that’s very egocentric. I’m trying to help you solve a problem. And so as a guide to a, an ultimate outcome, I have my opinions, but- Mm … it doesn’t really matter. It matters what you feel and think and need.

[00:27:29] Because at the end of the day, I move on, and you have to live with the things I create. So if I create a really bad interface, I use colors that are not legible, your sales tank, and I walk away thinking, “That was my perspective in the world.” Right? Yeah. There’s a price to pay for being an artist. There’s financial uncertainty.

[00:27:47] There’s no guaranteed outcomes, and you often will suffer for your art. In the world, there are many artists. There are very few successful artists.

[00:27:54] Nathan: Mm.

[00:27:55] Chris: And there’s a big difference there.

[00:27:57] Nathan: And, and so you’re seeing art as that. You said the- Seeing a certain perspective- Yeah … and then basically an invitation to, to show other people that same perspective on the world they may not have seen otherwise.

[00:28:09] Chris: Yeah. It, it’s an invitation for you to look at the world from a different perspective. From a different perspective. Yeah. So when we, when we move f- uh, away from the realistic, uh, like, paintings from Caravaggio- Mm-hmm … and we move into the world of Van Gogh, it is a totally different way of looking at the world, right?

[00:28:25] And if we take a Van Gogh painting and we turn it into a three-dimensional experience that you walk through, and you can literally walk into a painting, that is asking you to look at the world from a different point of view. When we listen to music or we watch a film that transports us another place in time and person, they’re bringing us to look at the world from a different point of view.

[00:28:45] So my, my goal, and I, I think about this, and I’m still trying to figure out how to say this part, but I think you have two priorities in life. Your first priority is, uh, to be true to yourself. Mm-hmm. And your second priority is to refer to priority number one. And so my whole thing is if helping you, making you happier requires me to not be my truest self, then I’m not interested in that at all And this is a hard thing for, for people to hear because we’ve been trained to believe the opposite, is like we, we have to look out for people.

[00:29:17] You, you’re lacking empathy or sympathy. And I think I serve more people, especially myself, when I am myself.

[00:29:23] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:29:23] Chris: And I have many examples. If any of it becomes interesting to you, we can talk about that and pick that apart. But I’m trying my best to just be my truest self.

[00:29:32] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:29:32] Chris: And so whatever that comes across, some people listen to this and say, “This guy’s full of himself.

[00:29:36] He doesn’t know what he’s talking about. He’s too aggressive, he’s too direct.” Some people say he’s really charming, interesting, a breath of fresh air. I don’t really care either way. I just need to be me.

[00:29:45] Nathan: Right. I think that, I don’t know if this is to the level of, like, identity or something like that, but what I, when I think about the gift that I wanna bring to the world, I, I think similar to you, I grew up in an environment where money was very scarce.

[00:30:01] And the amount of pain and anxiety and everything else that comes from that is, um, you know, people say money doesn’t buy happiness, and I’m like, “I don’t know.” Like, lack of money definitely, uh, causes-

[00:30:15] Chris: Right …

[00:30:15] Nathan: uh, some negative side effects. So somewhere in the spectrum, like- Yeah … money can be a positive thing.

[00:30:20] And I, maybe from a observing the world perspective, like, I look at things from almost like a physics perspective of like, why, why did this business work? Why does this job get paid more money? Why, like, why do all of these things play out in a certain way? Why do recurring revenue businesses sell to private equity for more than, you know, one time for, like any of those things.

[00:30:41] Yeah. Right. And what I’ve realized is anyone else who’s built up a company has as well, is that there’s observable concrete things and concrete steps that you can do. And I feel like my mission in this life is to map that out for people so that they don’t have to go through the same level, level of pain and suffering.

[00:30:59] You look at, like, one of the single biggest reasons that, like, relationships fail, it’s like conflict over money and all that. And you’re like, what if that just didn’t have to be a thing? And so when I think about the impact that I wanna have on people and, and, and all of that, is I want to make as many of these things known.

[00:31:16] Like, I, I want to explain the laws of physics- Mm … so that you go, “Oh-”

[00:31:20] Chris: Yep … ”

[00:31:20] Nathan: I just needed to do that, and now, you know, money doesn’t have to be a point of stress for me,” you know, and, and all that. And so that’s the thing that, um, I try to do as much as possible when, like, my identity or my brand or, or all of that is…

[00:31:39] Or my, my gift to the world would be how do I make that as clear and as understandable as possible?

[00:31:45] Chris: Mm-hmm.

[00:31:45] Nathan: Um, and like that’s my way of being of service to others.

[00:31:48] Chris: Mm-hmm. I like that. Well, I, I think you provide, um, uh, tools that have served you, but it happens to serve a lot of other people.

[00:32:01] Nathan: Right.

[00:32:01] Chris: You could have chosen a lot of different things to make in this world, and this is what…

[00:32:05] I mean, sometimes I think about this. Did you choose your job or did the job choose you? Never sure. And it, it, and I think- Yeah … a lot of times you thought you made that decision because free will’s an exciting idea, but maybe that was your calling. Who knows? But you’re still very young. You could kind of restart two more times and still- Right

[00:32:24] be like, “Oh, this is what I was meant to do.” Yeah. I’ll give you the example. So from my 20s onto my 40s, I thought my purpose was to make commercials and music videos and improve the world by making aesthetic things, especially in the motion space, right? And then I found that towards the end of that arc, I didn’t get any more joy from doing this.

[00:32:46] The, the challenges got bigger, the budgets got bigger, and, uh, the consequences of making bad decisions got bigger, but it’s like I don’t enjoy this really. And then I realized the whole point was to make money. I just did it to make money. It just… I found- Okay … a gift that I did, I was able to do this i- with less effort than most people, so I got to reap the rewards of that gift.

[00:33:10] But now I’m faced with this idea, like, I don’t need to make more money. What do I need to do? And that sent me into kind of an inner journey-

[00:33:19] Nathan: Yeah …

[00:33:20] Chris: about what it is that I want to do with my life. And it was by accident I found content creation as a, as a form. So some, some people’s art is expressing through music, through physical things.

[00:33:31] My art is, like, words and ideas. Mm. And I just want to keep working on that.

[00:33:36] Nathan: Yeah. That makes sense. We’ve talked a lot about what you stand for, right? And, and both in brands or who you are as a person. Something I’ve heard you talk about in your content is, like, what you stand against-

[00:33:48] Chris: Yes …

[00:33:48] Nathan: and how people are often very afraid.

[00:33:50] Like, it’s safe to say, “I stand for this,” you know? Yes, it

[00:33:53] Chris: is.

[00:33:53] Nathan: Like, all the things that we’ve talked about, no- no one’s gonna listen to that and be like, “Oh, those, those assholes,” you know? Right, right. That sort of thing. But standing against something, that, like, actually, one, it differentiates the brand, but two, like, it’s, it’s risky.

[00:34:07] Like, how do you think about that, and how do you encourage brands to think about it? Yeah.

[00:34:10] Chris: Or, or

[00:34:11] Nathan: individuals more so than brands.

[00:34:12] Chris: It’s less risky than we think.

[00:34:14] Nathan: Okay.

[00:34:15] Chris: It’s something like, uh, and I, I, I’m, I’m not gonna tell you who the original person said this or the exact quote. I’ll just share an idea that’s not mine, which is nothing unites people more than a common cause.

[00:34:26] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:34:27] Chris: So if we can hate the same things, it’s pretty cool, and we can see this play out in real time in politics right now, that it seems less about what we stand for but, but what we stand against.

[00:34:38] Nathan: Right.

[00:34:38] Chris: And there’s something very unifying about this. Both there are good parts and bad parts to this. Most companies or individuals will say, “I stand for freedom.

[00:34:46] I stand for equality.” I’m like- Right … “Yeah, cool, cool. Bro, so does everyone else.” Or it’s like Enron

[00:34:50] Nathan: having the values of integrity, honesty, or whatever-

[00:34:52] Chris: Yes …

[00:34:53] Nathan: and you’re

[00:34:53] Chris: like… Like Enron? Okay. Yeah. So it winds up being these empty platitudes.

[00:34:58] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:34:58] Chris: So if you stand for something that no one can disagree with, then do you stand for anything?

[00:35:03] Mm. Probably not. So then we say, like, what’s the opposite of that? So if you’re trying to make sure people have safe drinking water, cool. We believe in that.

[00:35:12] Nathan: Yep.

[00:35:12] Chris: What’s the opposite of that? Well, disease, safety, um, and all kinds of things. Like when we don’t have proper hydration or nutrients in our body, then we’re dealing with the first tier, which is health.

[00:35:25] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:35:26] Chris: And we wanna move people along because I believe if my neighbors, in the broadest sense of that definition, are doing better, the world’s a better place. It’s safer. It’s like when they don’t have more want, then my family and the people I care about don’t have to worry about people taking things away.

[00:35:43] Nathan: Right.

[00:35:44] Chris: And it’s better this way, yeah? Uh, so I, I, I tell people, “If you wanna develop your personal brand, A, you need to know something, uh, your, what your keyword is. Like, the, what you want to be associated with. So when people think of this word, they think of me.” Okay. This is really important, okay? Yeah. So they think of this, and they think of me.

[00:36:04] And then, then on the opposite side of that is: Who is your nemesis? What are you trying to rid the world of? It’s like when you go to sleep at night, what is the thing that bothers you about the way things work? And it doesn’t have to be a person. It probably shouldn’t be a person. An idea, a process, a system- Mm

[00:36:22] something like that. And you need to be able to articulate that, and they have to work against what you wanna be known for. These are really important components. And somebody had recently debated with me, “Well, I don’t like this idea. It seems so American or antagonistic, or it seems so aggressive to have an enemy.

[00:36:40] I wanna do this without it.” You can This is not what I teach- Right … and this is not what I’ve been able to observe. Probably

[00:36:45] Nathan: won’t resonate to the same extent.

[00:36:47] Chris: I think so, and I think of the strongest brands in the world, they have a pretty clearly defined mission that they’re on. They’re trying to achieve this result while getting, or getting rid of something else.

[00:36:57] So if there’s a program to feed children, what are they trying to end? Probably poverty.

[00:37:02] Nathan: Yep.

[00:37:03] Chris: Right? That, that seems to make a lot of sense. And as a comic book nerd myself, I’ve observed this, and you might have a different perspective on this, is who are the most enduring popular superheroes? You can probably name a few.

[00:37:15] Yeah. Who are they? Batman, Spider-Man. Batman, Spider-Man. There’s a lot of man in here- Yeah … but yes.

[00:37:19] Nathan: Exactly.

[00:37:19] Chris: Yeah. And, and, and maybe even Superman. Yep. Okay? So from the DC Universe, this is kinda wild, they have some of the most iconic characters. They’re just designed really well, and it seems like more of the world knows about the DC characters-ish.

[00:37:33] Mm-hmm. And then Marvel is, like, more successful, doesn’t have the same- Right … iconic characters. It’s really weird. Okay, here’s my observation. The reason why heroes are the heroes that break through the, the threshold or, or into, like, our consciousness is they have great enemies.

[00:37:54] Nathan: Hmm.

[00:37:55] Chris: So who’s, who’s Batman’s enemy?

[00:37:57] Nathan: The Joker.

[00:37:58] Chris: The Joker.

[00:37:59] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:37:59] Chris: Uh, the, probably his primary- He’s the go-to. He is a lot. The Joker. He has a rogues’ gallery. And, and in fact, when you think about it, when the creators of these characters d- build their world, the better the enemies, the better the hero. ‘Cause the hero needs to fight for something.

[00:38:13] Nathan: And it’s even bigger than the individual enemy. It’s the, it’s the, you know, what Gotham has become. Like, the, the crime, the-

[00:38:19] Chris: Yeah …

[00:38:20] Nathan: like-

[00:38:20] Chris: The city is a character in- Is a, yeah … in this whole thing, and that is also part of the personal brand. So when we look at Batman, and we look at the design of the Joker, there’s something interesting about this.

[00:38:31] Batman’s a billionaire.

[00:38:32] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:38:32] Chris: Uh, he had a tragic beginning. Uh, he’s a, a kind of a physical specimen. He’s, uh, the world’s greatest detective, so he’s not only smart, he’s strong and rich.

[00:38:43] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:38:43] Chris: Uh, you know, like the joke in the movie was like, yeah, billionaire th- philanthropist, what’s your problem?

[00:38:48] Billionaire playboy philanthropist, what’s your problem, right? Who’s the Joker? The Joker w- is, is a mysterious origin. He’s a criminal. He’s chaotic. And he’s intellectually superior to Batman, but physically inferior. Mm-hmm. So these heroes and these villains tend to be the equal and the opposite of each other.

[00:39:09] It’s like I’m a big fan of the yin-yang symbol. Mm-hmm. Equal and opposite, they’re balanced. So if you look at Superman, his biggest enemy is Lex Luthor. He’s an alien, he’s human. He’s strong, he’s dumb as a brick Lex is a genius

[00:39:23] Nathan: Right. He’s

[00:39:24] Chris: weird … and rich. Yeah. And he’s physically very weak. So this is kind of, kind of interesting.

[00:39:29] So when we look at world building, we look at the two characters. They’re not separate. They’re part of the world.

[00:39:36] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:39:36] Chris: So when we look at the world of you, your brand, you have what you perceive as your strengths, but you also have the shadow side, which is the part that we hide. And so if I were to tell you the Blue Beetle…

[00:39:47] Can you name the Blue Beetle’s enemy?

[00:39:49] Nathan: No.

[00:39:49] Chris: I couldn’t either, ’cause I don’t know. That’s the problem.

[00:39:52] Nathan: Right.

[00:39:53] Chris: So sometimes they overpower someone, and then they don’t give them a strong counterpart. They’re constantly foils to each other. So in the world of fiction, these two components build that world. You take away one, it becomes much weaker.

[00:40:07] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:40:08] Chris: So what I try to help people do is look into your shadow self, the things that you feel great shame or guilt or anxiety around and you’ve been hiding for a really long time, ’cause you feel the world will not accept you. Once you accept that, the world will love you. And it’s hard, deep work, Karen.

[00:40:25] Nathan: Mm-hmm. Okay, so if we bring this into a personal brand, like, and talking about what you stand for Yeah. Is there an example that comes to mind or, or an individual who’s done this well where they say- Yes … “This is what I stand for, and this is what I stand against”?

[00:40:39] Chris: Yes, yes, yes. And it’s not like… And people are like, “Do they have a team,” right?

[00:40:43] I’m like, “No.” They exist, and their belief systems drive their words and their actions, and we start to see it. And the people who are very consistent at doing this, and they’re not trying to do 1,000 different things, it becomes very easy for us to see. My favorite example is Bryan Johnson. Yeah. He’s the most measured man, right?

[00:41:03] Nathan: Right.

[00:41:03] Chris: He’s a pretty radical millionaire, billionaire. I don’t know how much. He’s got a lot of money. He is trying to live longer.

[00:41:09] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:41:09] Chris: But not just live longer. So we can say, like, what is the key word he wants to be associated with? What would you say?

[00:41:15] Nathan: Longevity.

[00:41:15] Chris: Longevity.

[00:41:16] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:41:16] Chris: Or aging reversal.

[00:41:18] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:41:18] Chris: Something like that. So naturally, what is his enemy?

[00:41:21] Nathan: Time.

[00:41:22] Chris: Time, or you might say death.

[00:41:24] Nathan: Right, death.

[00:41:24] Chris: To keep it real simple.

[00:41:25] Nathan: Yeah,

[00:41:25] Chris: yeah. Yeah. He’s not fighting time. He’s fighting death. He’s just trying to cheat death.

[00:41:28] Nathan: Yeah. Well, I mean, his- Right? If you had a bumper sticker-

[00:41:31] Chris: Yeah …

[00:41:31] Nathan: it’s like, “Don’t die.”

[00:41:32] Chris: Don’t die.

[00:41:32] Well, that’s the third component to this three-part, which is you have what you stand for, you have what you stand against, and you have a line, a rallying cry, a tagline, something that unites these two things. Right. So “don’t die” tells you the enemy and what he stands for. We can infer all the meaning from that.

[00:41:49] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:41:49] Chris: So when we… Uh, and I was asked this recently on a podcast, and I stumbled through it. I’m like, “Let me make up for that right now.” They’re like, “Well, Chris, what’s your triangle? What are your three components? What are you standing for?” Well, I, I, I don’t know a better word, and I hate this word, but I’m gonna say it.

[00:42:04] Like, truly authentic, a personal brand. Mm-hmm. That’s what I want to be known for, and the opposite of that is some form of masking. Mm-hmm. So then my tagline is, “Unblend yourself,” and that should explain those two concepts. Right. The cool thing is, the only part that people see is the bumper sticker part.

[00:42:25] But we can infer the meaning from that.

[00:42:27] Nathan: Right.

[00:42:28] Chris: And so these three things have to work in concert in my mind, otherwise it’s a two-legged table.

[00:42:33] Nathan: Okay, so if we workshop this, going back to my brand, um, and- Oh,

[00:42:38] Chris: it’s all about you.

[00:42:39] Nathan: It’s always all about me. No,

[00:42:43] Chris: I’m just kidding. It’s called The Nathan Barry Show.

[00:42:43] My God, the ego on this

[00:42:44] Nathan: guy. Yes. It’s, it’s incredible.

[00:42:46] Chris: Chelsea, I don’t know how you deal with this.

[00:42:48] Nathan: Yeah. What I’ve said is the, the mission for the company, and this is my individual mission as well, like, we exist to help creators earn a living. And so it’s very po- and every- it’s, it’s like we want clean water.

[00:42:58] Like, of course. Like, great. There’s, everything is positive about that. Yeah. Um, but there’s nothing in there that stands against. Um, and so I’m trying to think of where, where you would get to… I guess you, you’d, you know, you’d be against poverty, you’d be against, um, uh, like ignorance, right? ‘Cause a lot of the way that I believe you achieve is not working harder, it’s understanding the physics of-

[00:43:22] Chris: Your enemy could be burnout.

[00:43:23] Nathan: Yeah. It could be, yeah, burnout. Um, all of those things. But how else would you, would you think about that? Or, like, what questions- Well- … would you ask to draw out? This

[00:43:30] Chris: is excellent. Okay. What you do as a company is different than who you are.

[00:43:34] Nathan: Okay.

[00:43:35] Chris: So we have to do, like, a little palate cleanser and just forget that the company exists.

[00:43:39] Because over time you might be selling and buying companies- Mm-hmm … and you’re not gonna change who you are in that process. We have to figure out who you are and what you stand for, and the company is a mirror to this, but it’s not the driver of this. Okay? So my company’s called The Future. I’m not talking about past, present, or future.

[00:43:57] I’m not … I am just me. The company collects the residuals of me being me. And it’s a very different way of running a company or building a brand because it’s very founder-focused. Because people are like, “How do you differentiate between what The Future makes, posts, and what- Mm-hmm … Chris Do posts?” I’m like, “Well, I write whatever I want to write, I say whatever I want to say.

[00:44:17] And some team collects those parts, repackages it, and calls it The Future.” It’s not the other way around.

[00:44:23] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:44:23] Chris: So I can’t… I have to emphasize this a little bit because people who are in real estate, people who are into Uh, investment, uh, or, or what is it called? Venture capital. Their whole identity is around moving money.

[00:44:35] It’s like, no, it’s not. There’s something bigger that you believe in, and there’s a story there that is connected to your origin that if you’re able to tell, then all the parts will make sense. W- why is it important for me to end this masking thing? Okay, ’cause first of all, I see a lot of suffering-

[00:44:53] Nathan: Mm-hmm

[00:44:53] Chris: in the world, and suffering is, like, probably lowercase S here. There’s this internal struggle in all of us that is fighting for control of who gets to live this life, the real you or the persona you’ve adopted, and it’s really hard to know which is which, especially if you’ve been living in the persona for a really long time.

[00:45:11] Why this matters to me is ’cause I, I’m a ref- refugee to America, uh, from Vietnam, and I grew up, English is my second language. I don’t understand the culture and the customs, and I’m in fights. I’m, I’m picked on, and so I retreat inward because I’m also an introvert And for a long time, I don’t have a voice, I don’t have an identity.

[00:45:32] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:45:32] Chris: I’m trying to disappear. And so there’s a lot of healing that I had to go through, I had to go through to figure out who I’m supposed to be in this life. Some, some sadness, some depression, and once I worked my way out, it’s like I don’t want anyone else to go through that. Mm. That’s important to me.

[00:45:47] So over the course of however long I live, I might build different companies, different products, but they’re all gonna be a reflection of this philosophy. Mm-hmm. I’m just trying to help people self-actualize.

[00:45:59] Nathan: Yeah. I mean, and that’s how I feel as well. Yeah. Like, the, the, w- the company mission and everything else is just an expression of like, like, an outward expression of the things that I believe and the impact that I wanna have on the world.

[00:46:11] Chris: Yeah.

[00:46:12] Nathan: And that’s where I, I feel like I don’t resonate with so many entrepreneurs- Mm … ’cause they’re like, “Oh, I built this company, and I exited that, and I’m doing these other things, and I run all of these things,” and I’m like, “No, this company is, like th- how I plan to impact the world,” and that’s why I’m 13 years into one company, and in 10 years, I fully expect that I will be doing you know, it might have a slightly different shape-

[00:46:32] Chris: Yeah

[00:46:32] Nathan: but I will be doing basically the same thing-

[00:46:34] Chris: Yeah …

[00:46:34] Nathan: of helping people, um, yeah, reach their, reach their full potential and, and get to this point where they not only are having that financial impact for the- themselves and their family, but then it’s turning into something for-

[00:46:46] Chris: Yeah …

[00:46:47] Nathan: many more people.

[00:46:48] Chris: Do you, would you consider yourself as having some degree of self-awareness?

[00:46:52] Nathan: I think so.

[00:46:52] Chris: Okay. So if I spent a couple hours with you and asked you a couple of questions, and we weren’t being taped and all that stuff, I could probably help you surface this pretty quickly.

[00:47:01] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:47:01] Chris: And, uh, and as long as you’re willing to tell the truth and understand- Yeah … a little, little bit about who you are, we can figure it out, and it’s like, oh, it’s a lot of these things, and eventually we find it, and you’re like, “Wow, I didn’t-” Mm-hmm

[00:47:10] “know that was there.” And so oftentimes we can see other people’s problems really clearly. Yeah. We can’t see our own thing. It’s very difficult. Yeah. Anybody who’s ever built their identity or messaging for their company, it’s the longest, hardest thing, and it usually sucks-

[00:47:23] Nathan: Right … ‘

[00:47:23] Chris: cause we’re changing our mind all the time.

[00:47:25] So one, one clue on this is, uh, a friend of mine, Blair Enns, said something to, to this effect. He says, “All strategy is autobiographical.” We dispense advice and strategies based on what’s worked for us.

[00:47:39] Nathan: Mm.

[00:47:40] Chris: Okay? You created something because you had a problem and you dealt with it. Right. Sometimes the problem is the problem, and sometimes there’s two layers deeper than that that’s the real problem.

[00:47:51] So through some ex- excavation, through some listening, through some empathy, we can find that problem pretty quickly. We can start to understand what motivates you, what drives you, and why you’re trying to correct for something that’s happened to you, some wrong that you’ve perceived in the world either done to you or that you experienced that you’re trying to make right.

[00:48:08] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:48:09] Chris: As I say that, I can see your eyes looking somewhere, searching your memory banks possibly.

[00:48:13] Nathan: Yeah. I’m, I’m just thinking through, uh- Yeah, it’s, it’s basically… M- my biggest thing that I realized is how much I spent my childhood feeling like I was a burden on other people.

[00:48:25] Chris: Mm.

[00:48:26] Nathan: And so w- going through this arc of first, you know, hating that feeling and not knowing what to do about it-

[00:48:34] Chris: Mm-hmm

[00:48:34] at all,

[00:48:34] Nathan: right? And then becoming acutely aware of money and, you know, everything that came from that. How to, like, become self-sufficient, right? And so hearing Jason Fried from Basecamp say, “Making money is a skill that you can get better at with deliberate practice,” I heard that and like, I was like, “Wait, seriously?”

[00:48:55] Right? And so then it was like everything is within my, my power. And then spending really a lot of time in the, okay, my identity and my value and all of that is based on the money that I make, the impact that I have on other people.

[00:49:07] Chris: Yeah.

[00:49:08] Nathan: And the hard thing about that, you know, there’s a lot of hard things, but one of them is that then I found that I would do the inverse.

[00:49:14] Can I

[00:49:14] Chris: borrow your pa- paper? Okay, go for it. Okay. You mind if I… I know this is really weird. C- I… No, I wanna write in your notebook. I wanna map some of this- Okay … in case something comes out, all right? Is that okay?

[00:49:23] Nathan: Yeah, go

[00:49:23] Chris: for it. I- I know it’s weird. Never touch my notebook or my pen, but here we go. Okay, keep talking.

[00:49:27] Don’t… Ignore everything- Yeah, yeah … I may or may not be writing down.

[00:49:29] Nathan: And so what I ended up doing is I found that there were two people in my life that I deeply resented, and that was, uh, my stepdad and my younger brother. And the reason is that I perceived them both as, um, being burdens on my mom. And so like I watched my mom struggle with finances, all this, take care of all of us kids, you know, everything, and then like finally achieve her own, after my parents got divorced, like finally achieve her own independence.

[00:50:00] And, uh, she became a nurse, got her master’s in nursing, like got to the point where she was making, um, a really meaningful amount of money and all this, and like doing this into her like late 50s and 60s, and start a new career and, and doing all this. And then marrying someone who was a paraplegic. Um, my brother was still living with her, you know, like not getting a driver’s license.

[00:50:21] Like it was just a bunch of these things, and I’m like, you know, so, so frustrated at both of them, that like they took all of her time and attention. And because I, like I base so much value around like what you create, the independence that you have, not being a burden. There was something like, I don’t know, this is probably four years ago, five years ago or something, um, I realized that like- Like my mom’s gift to the world is to serve and to take care of people.

[00:50:47] And so I was d- like, as I deeply resented the people that she was, like, doing her greatest expression of love to take care of, probably the hardest thing for me is to then allow myself to be taken care of or to be a burden on someone else. And so, like, it’s this, like, full circle of where it’s like, yeah, I, I can achieve this level of in- independence, but then to get to the point where it’s like, oh, I, I have value outside of what I accomplish.

[00:51:12] I can allow myself to be taken care of by other people. I can fully exist, and I can fully accept people who, um, you know, like my stepdad, who, like, he needs someone to care for him, right? He’s, um, confined to a wheelchair, right? All of those things. It’s a long answer to and, and a bit of a ramble, but, um, that’s some of the arc that I went on.

[00:51:32] Chris: It’s fascinating. Have you shared this before?

[00:51:35] Nathan: Uh, a little bit. Not, not in detail.

[00:51:39] Chris: Uh, is your stepdad still alive?

[00:51:41] Nathan: No, he passed away, uh, four years ago.

[00:51:43] Chris: Oh, okay. The paraplegic?

[00:51:45] Nathan: Uh-huh.

[00:51:46] Chris: Have you said this prior to him passing away?

[00:51:48] Nathan: Yeah. Did- I was able to tell him …

[00:51:50] Chris: you told him?

[00:51:52] Nathan: Yep, in, uh, at his, uh, hospital bed.

[00:51:56] Chris: What compelled you to tell your stepfather on his deathbed, quite literally, that you resented him for being a burden to your mom?

[00:52:05] Nathan: I think there’s things that you don’t want to tell someone because of the impact or the burden that it would place on them or how it’d make them feel. And the thing that I realized is most things, if you’ve been around someone for a long time, most things that you’re like, “Oh, I probably wanted to…

[00:52:21] I shouldn’t tell them this,” or that sort of thing, they already know. You told them, like, 500 tiny little ways over time in how you acted, how, like, the little things, right? And so what I realized is I think that I, I think I told him in 500 little ways, and he felt that. And so I told him the opposite. Um-

[00:52:52] I told him that I was so grateful that he was in my life and my mom’s life because I was able To see my mom through him express like the truest nature of who she is.

[00:53:12] Chris: Mm-hmm.

[00:53:13] Nathan: And he brought that out of her And so it was this really special moment to be able to invert that and to basically say

[00:53:30] Not to place a burden on him, but to relieve him of that. Right. Because this is something that I told him 1,000 times-

[00:53:33] Chris: I see …

[00:53:33] Nathan: in subtle ways. But to say, like, “No, actually, I see it the complete opposite

[00:53:38] Chris: now.” Mm. Thanks for sharing that story and for being real with me.

[00:53:42] Nathan: Yeah. Thanks for drawing it out.

[00:53:44] Chris: Oh, we’re not done with the drawing yet.

[00:53:49] Okay. Um, I think in that moment… I’m gonna make a lot of assumptions ’cause I don’t know you well at all. Yeah. So you can say, “You jackass, you don’t know-” Yeah “… anything about nothing.” But-

[00:53:57] Nathan: Just throwing water

[00:53:58] Chris: in

[00:53:59] Nathan: your face. Yeah. Storm

[00:53:59] Chris: out. This is not the podcast I signed up for. I think in that moment, um, you’ve ascended.

[00:54:06] because you kind of let something that’s been eating you up, instead of just releasing on him, you kind of released him of this thing. And I think you did it for him, you did it for you, and maybe you did it for your mom. I don’t know.

[00:54:20] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:54:21] Chris: But we were talking about enemies and what you, what you stand for.

[00:54:27] My, my therapist had asked me this many years ago. He goes, “I’m curious about your wife. Is she anything like you?” I’m like, “We’re the exact opposite.” We’re the exact opposite in every single way I can imagine, but we work. So she’s like, “I have this weird theory about people, is like they’re brought into our lives to teach us something.”

[00:54:44] And, and that sounds, depending on how you interpret that, it could be a negative. It’s, doesn’t sound like a positive to me. But if you think of your mom’s greatest gift is the ex- her expression of love is to take care of people, I think your stepfather came into her life so she can express her gift. Like Superman is Superman because of Lex.

[00:55:04] And so we, we just see it, and I, I think maybe, who knows, this will probably be another session. But there was a child inside of you who was like, “Mom, what about us?”

[00:55:14] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:55:14] Chris: Or like, “I, I will work to support you, but then now you’re supporting this other random dude. You know, what up, what up with that?” It’s crazy.

[00:55:21] But y- you have to believe somewhere that your mom found somebody who completed her in a way that you could not understand, because you don’t have the same lens into the world.

[00:55:31] Nathan: Right.

[00:55:32] Chris: And perhaps your mom doesn’t shine as bright without him. Who knows? But in that moment that you’re able to flip this is the thing I try and help people with, but not from an external point, from an internal point.

[00:55:42] Now, imagine this entire conversation happening inside your heart and your brain, where you feel like, “I’m a caretaker,” and there’s this other side where it’s like, “I need to be taken care of.” And they’re in conflict with each other. Mm. And the resolution that you found was that they’re not in conflict, they’re, they’re complementary- Mm-hmm

[00:56:00] to one another. I don’t know.

[00:56:01] Nathan: Oh, yeah. Right? No, it’s absolutely… Like, the, my, uh, biggest expression or my favorite thing to do is take care of people- Yeah … and to serve them and all of that. And then my- Oh,

[00:56:10] Chris: this is fascinating …

[00:56:11] Nathan: my other favorite thing is to be taken care of.

[00:56:13] Chris: Okay, this is wonderful. Look at this.

[00:56:15] Look at this. I mean, I don’t know what happened. Forget about, uh- … entrepreneurship here. Your whole company and your whole ethos is to take care of other people and help them- Mm … in their business. So what if the world had no problems to take care of? You’d be out of purpose.

[00:56:29] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:56:30] Chris: So in the thing that you saw in your stepfather, it’s like you need that to exist.

[00:56:36] And in your own way, in a very different way, you’re helping a lot of other people, and the greater their problem, the greater of service you can become. So I wrote down a couple of words here. Okay. You’ve mentioned the word burden, like many, many times. Yeah. I wasn’t counting, but like eight or nine times.

[00:56:51] So that, that word has to be somewhere in this-

[00:56:53] Nathan: Mm-hmm …

[00:56:54] Chris: world of yours. You mentioned the word impact slightly, and then I started to, to, um, pull other words out of this, like contribution, carry your weight, dead weight, this feeling of resentment, and this idea of the greatest expression of love is blank, blank, blank.

[00:57:08] We don’t know.

[00:57:09] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:57:09] Chris: Okay? So I wonder if something that’s like the line is something, this is horrible, we’re just kind of workshopping it, but maybe something about never be a burden. Never feel like a burden. Maybe the feeling is more important.

[00:57:22] Nathan: Hmm. Never feel like a burden.

[00:57:24] Chris: Yeah. That could be the, the…

[00:57:26] There, there’s maybe something in there, because I think the word burden or unburdened or something like that. Like, as, as a man- Mm … I would feel horrible if everyone had to take care of me, ’cause I was- Right … not competent, unable to, you know? And clearly the paraplegic guy, he had his own battles to deal with.

[00:57:44] It’s not like he chose to just loaf around and eat potato chips.

[00:57:47] Nathan: Right.

[00:57:47] Chris: You know? It, it was life dealt him a set of cards, and he played the cards as best as he could. But I, I do have similar reactions to you when I see people, like you’re not holding up your end of the bargain. Mm. And maybe that’s also something else.

[00:58:00] We have strong conviction about how we’re supposed to contribute, that we should give more than we take, and in this perspective, somebody was taking more than they were able to give, in the way that we can see on the dimension that we’re looking at.

[00:58:11] Nathan: Yeah, and I think the, the thing about the burden is that it’s, it’s a full circle thing.

[00:58:18] Because if I wanna help people go on the same journey that I did, or that I’m going on, it’s to have all of the tools and the mindset and everything else so they don’t have to be a burden on other people. And so they can fully take care of themselves and them around them and, and all that. And then- To also be able to set that aside and be willing to be a burden on someone, and be willing to accept that help, right?

[00:58:45] ‘Cause that’s the hard thing. I thought if you would’ve asked me, I don’t know, five, five years ago, 10 years ago, somewhere in there, I would’ve thought, like, okay, I… Get me all the tools, all of that. I will get to this point. I’m now, um, you know, fully of service to others. Uh, I would actually keep a little bit of a scorecard.

[00:59:03] Like, if I… The more generous I am- Mm-hmm … the more I know that I have served you more than you’ve served me, and I can know that I’m not a burden. And so I would’ve thought, like, okay, that is the, some self-actualization moment. And then the, the arc in this is like, oh, to come all the way back to a point where it’s like, oh, I have value as an i- individual, even if I can’t, even if I am a burden on people, and to be willing to accept-

[00:59:26] Chris: Mm

[00:59:27] Nathan: that help and everything from that.

[00:59:28] Chris: Mm. Uh, I’m gonna return your notebook to you. Yeah. You can have your, my notebook back. But I was sitting there thinking, the word burden is a judging word. Mm-hmm. It’s a very violent word.

[00:59:39] Nathan: It is, yeah.

[00:59:40] Chris: Right? Because I wonder if when we see ourselves being a burden to someone else because of your feelings towards people in your life, like your stepfather, who was a burden to your mom- Mm-hmm

[00:59:50] drained her resources, and her energy, and her love, and everything that she could give, well, we’re gonna have a pretty negative feeling about that word.

[00:59:58] Nathan: Right.

[00:59:58] Chris: So when someone wants to help you, they want to serve you, but you won’t let them because you see yourself as a burden, and so the last thing you want to do is to become the person you had a lot of resentment towards.

[01:00:09] Nathan: Right.

[01:00:09] Chris: So I think what we wanna do is find some neutral word to describe what this is. And then, then you can be liberated from this idea.

[01:00:18] Nathan: Right.

[01:00:18] Chris: Yeah. And I struggle with this too, because I, I think I need to take care of people, and when somebody’s like, “Can I help you do this?” I … In my mind I’m like, “Please.”

[01:00:27] Yeah. But I’m like, “No, I got this.” You know? It’s not, it’s not out of pride, it’s just, it’s just we’re afraid of receiving help for whatever reasons, ’cause there’s a, an emotional charge against receiving help. So the people who I consider some of my closest, uh, friends are the ones who push past my resistance, and they’re like, “Well, I’m doing it anyways.”

[01:00:47] Nathan: Right. ”

[01:00:48] Chris: I’m picking you up tomorrow at 4:00 AM, and I will take you to the airport, and I will make sure you get on this plane or train.” I’m like, “You, you, you care about me? Oh my God.” You know? Yeah. And they can just push past that. Mm-hmm. And I think, um, I know this conversation has spiraled into a thousand different directions.

[01:01:04] There, I think there’s, like, toxic masculinity, and I don’t know what the opposite version of that is, but I think men need to be able to understand with each other we’re often hard … It’s … We find it difficult to ask for help and to receive help, but to understand, like, I’m gonna give you help regardless, just knowing that underneath that you really do want help.

[01:01:22] Nathan: Right.

[01:01:23] Chris: And not to be a jerk about it. So there’s something there.

[01:01:26] Nathan: Well, I think the, the thing that I wanna end on is- Yeah … you have this idea that you talked about of how the more perfect someone looks online-

[01:01:34] Chris: Yeah …

[01:01:34] Nathan: the less we trust them.

[01:01:35] Chris: Yeah.

[01:01:36] Nathan: And that’s part of why, like, I’m so excited to take this conversation the w- place that we did, right?

[01:01:41] Because it’s just like let’s … You talk about being authentic. I’m pretty sure this is an un- like un-bland conversation. It is. You know? Um, so but how do you bring this level of vulnerability and, like, authenticness and the imperfections through into the brand or the content that you let people see?

[01:02:00] Chris: Okay. I kind of look at it like this.

[01:02:02] Uh, there, there was an article written in Harvard Business Review. I’m, uh, I’m, I’m forgetting the, the two women’s name, but they, they called something like the trust triangle, like, why we trust some people more than other people. And what we’re really trading on is trust everywhere we go. You buy a car or a c- or, or a jacket because you trust that person or that brand.

[01:02:23] This is how we, we do things. We trust this food is gonna be okay. It’s not gonna kill us, right? The trust triangle starts with the top part, which is authenticity, and it’s a very broad, generic word that’s being overused and misused a lot, but it’s really are you who you say you are? That’s it.

[01:02:37] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[01:02:37] Chris: And a lot of us are not.

[01:02:39] That’s my mission is to close that gap between- Right … this inauthentic self and the real you. And if we can do that, we’re starting off really great. Second part to the trust triangle is this word, they use empathy, but they don’t use it the way that we use it. They’re, they’re … The word empathy to them is are you looking out for me?

[01:02:55] Do I feel like Nathan’s looking out for me? Mm-hmm. Do I feel like Chris has got my best intentions at, in his heart? And the last one is, and it’s a weird one, ’cause it’s like what? It’s logic. Do you talk about things in a way that I can follow?

[01:03:10] Nathan: Mm.

[01:03:10] Chris: So if we look at someone who’s on stage, and we feel like they’re being performative, and they’re presenting themselves to be more perfect, perfect life, perfect wife, perfect everything.

[01:03:19] Yeah. Everything is perfect. Like, ugh. Something about us feels, we, we’re like, “It’s off.” Right. It’s off. All their stories are too manufactured, too polished, and it, it gives us the ick feel. So already we’re, we’re losing trust. And then they’re talking about something, we can feel like, oh, you’re gonna bring and rope me into a book or a course or a master class or a cohort.

[01:03:38] The pitch is coming. I already can feel it. We’re not… Yeah, we can feel the pitch a mile away. It’s like they think we can’t see the train, but we can. It’s like a, it’s a flat line. I can see it coming. It’s coming. I already know. So we’ve lost trust on two things. And, and then they’re, like, able to logically tell us, “Well, I’ll agitate the pain, and the results are great.”

[01:03:55] We see that. You need all three components to come together in harmony for you to have trust. So when we’re being overly polished, it, first of all, requires a lot of mental and spiritual energy to hold something up, right? It’s like we gotta clean the house before everybody gets here. We gotta make sure the lens and the makeup and the beauty filters and all that kind of stuff is perfect.

[01:04:16] It requires too much energy. And I, I don’t know about you, I have finite energy. Mm-hmm. And I wanna spend all of my energy being my truest self. So if I divert that energy away, then what happens to me being in this moment, connecting or listening to you, it’s diminished, and I don’t wanna do that. And it requires some level of bravery to, to speak truth, to be able to say what’s on your mind in a way that’s not violent to other people.

[01:04:42] It, it’s a skill. Just like how Jason Freed was talking about making money is a skill.

[01:04:47] Nathan: Right.

[01:04:47] Chris: I think learning how to use your authentic true voice is a skill.

[01:04:51] Nathan: Yeah.

[01:04:51] Chris: Requires practice.

[01:04:52] Nathan: If you were to give people maybe one question to sit with or a place to start if they’re gonna sit down with their journal, anything come to mind?

[01:05:01] Chris: Wow. Um, I have talked a l- a lot about shadow self and doing this, and I realize how hard this is. Mm-hmm. So I don’t wanna send people down that path.

[01:05:09] Nathan: Mm.

[01:05:09] Chris: Because they’ll try, and like, “This is too weird. It’s too hard.” Yeah. “I, I need my therapist next to me. I need, I need some support.” So I’ll, I’ll do it differently.

[01:05:17] I wanna give them a quick win. So the first thing I can do is to have people figure out their voice phrase.

[01:05:24] Nathan: Okay.

[01:05:25] Chris: So I, it, it turns out, like, it’s a pretty good compass as to who you are, and it’s your North Star. So we… The exercise is write down how you sound to the world, as many different words as you, as you can write, and just write without editing, without thinking, without curating.

[01:05:42] And if you get stuck, say, “Well, how would my friend describe me as my voice? How would my employee or my boss or my partner, my parent, my sibling describe my voice?” And sometimes it’s really weird. We, we don’t think we have the answers, but as soon as I change the phrase or the prompt, they can start to write.

[01:06:01] Yeah. Look at the collection of words and select the three that ring true, that build on each other versus that are redundant. So bold, brave, don’t use those two words. You get to use one of them. Okay. And find your three words, okay? Now you’ll find your three words. Then sit down and try to think, “What is a short two to five-word phrase that sums up these disparate characteristics about me?”

[01:06:25] The example is this. A buddy of mine, he’s a photographer. He teaches embodiment through posing. He, he’s, he’s a real interesting person because the photo is just, um, an artifact of how the person feels.

[01:06:38] Nathan: Right.

[01:06:39] Chris: It’s pretty powerful stuff that he does. So when he came up with his three words, he said, “I’m flamboyant.”

[01:06:44] You definitely are. “I’m very playful.” You most certainly are. And he’s, “I’m vulnerable.” So I sat with those three words, and I was just writing, thinking, “Okay, so your voice phrase is big energy, open heart.” And I said that to him, and he goes, “My God, that is everything I’ve ever done.” I’m like, “I know.”

[01:07:01] Nathan: Yeah.

[01:07:01] Chris: But we don’t put words to it, so we, we don’t know.

[01:07:04] It’s very abstract. It’s like a fog. And all of a sudden, this makes it really concrete. For me, um, just as one more example, I am critical I’m direct, but I’m caring

[01:07:16] Nathan: Mm-hmm

[01:07:17] Chris: And those are important words to me Critical

[01:07:18] Nathan: and caring have that, yeah

[01:07:20] Chris: Yeah, there’s like that kind of polar dichotomy kind of thing.

[01:07:22] So my voice phrase would be hard truths gently told

[01:07:28] Nathan: Hmm

[01:07:28] Chris: And I find, like, how do we use this, right? Hard truth. So if I write something, if I’m on a podcast with you, and people walk away, this is just a lot of generic nonsense, or it’s just he’s playing it too safe, then I’ve failed my own identity. So I need to say what I feel in my heart.

[01:07:42] And al- almost always it is contrarian. It challenges the norm, and it sometime is triggering. I’m not doing that on purpose. It’s just who I am. But if I do it in a way that you walk away feeling like, “What a A-hole,” then I’ve not done the gently told part

[01:07:57] Nathan: Right

[01:07:57] Chris: So I have to use non-violent language. I have to emote through the tonality of my voice that people feel like, “Yeah, that bastard does care.”

[01:08:08] Nathan: Hard truths gently told

[01:08:09] Chris: Hard truths gently told. They don’t always have to be opposing

[01:08:12] Nathan: Right

[01:08:12] Chris: Right? ‘Cause other people have different phrases, and I’m like, “That’s great. That sounds just like you as far as I can tell.”

[01:08:18] Nathan: I love that

[01:08:19] Chris: So do that. See what happens

[01:08:21] Nathan: Chris, thank you so much for coming on. If people wanna follow more of your content, where’s the best place to go?

[01:08:26] Chris: You can find me on all social channels. I’m @thechrisdo, and that’s spelled D-O.

[01:08:30] Nathan: Sounds good. Thank you so much.

[01:08:32] Chris: Thanks for having me, man. Thanks for crying.

[01:08:34] Nathan: Anytime

[01:08:34] Chris: Thanks for being real. I like it

[01:08:36] Nathan: If you enjoyed this episode, check out episode 82 with Dan Martell. Dan built a $100 million company using a specific framework that turns your personal brand into real business results.

[01:08:47] Like the video if you enjoyed it, hit subscribe on YouTube or wherever you’re listening, and I’ll see you next week.

[00:00:00] Jasmine: This model, Nathan, will knock the air out of your freaking lungs.

[00:00:04] Nathan: Jasmine Star made $255,000 in five days on her first course.

[00:00:09] Jasmine: That 197 course ended up generating over seven figures.

[00:00:13] Nathan: And then she built a membership to over 10,000 people.

[00:00:15] Jasmine: Oh my gosh. Like, we just had like 34% Right … growth in a matter of five days

[00:00:19] Nathan: But like many, she watched as the model gradually stopped working.

[00:00:22] Jasmine: 8% of people finish a course.

[00:00:23] Average amount of time of people in a membership is less than three months.

[00:00:26] Nathan: When Jasmine started building around client results, everything changed.

[00:00:29] Jasmine: People want results. They don’t want more information. The way we actually get the quick results, the way we see people making money in 30 days, it is literally…

[00:00:38] Nathan: I love this.

[00:00:39] Jasmine: People want more time.

[00:00:40] They want more money, influence/power.

[00:00:42] Nathan: Everyone defaults to the exact same models.

[00:00:44] Jasmine: Yes. That is what we teach. Result in a timeframe, given support, period, the end.

[00:00:49] Nathan: I love that.

[00:00:50] Jasmine: You send us five questions in a day, and you get five responses back in a day. No, we move fast.

[00:00:54] Nathan: Coaching and accountability. Mm People are not talking about this enough.

[00:00:56] Jasmine: Are we spilling the tea right now?

[00:00:58] I, I think we are I mean, are we like making waves, Nathan? Let’s go.

[00:01:00] Nathan: If you want an offer that produces results, watch this episode to see how she built it And

[00:01:04] Jasmine: I’m gonna tell you the four steps of the 10K Freedom Formula, step one.

[00:01:07] Nathan: I think this episode is the single highest value per minute- … that’s ever been on my show You know I

[00:01:12] Jasmine: like to win, Nathan.

[00:01:13] Nathan: I know you do.

[00:01:14] Jasmine: Give me another thing to win at.

[00:01:18] Nathan: Jasmine, welcome to the show.

[00:01:19] Jasmine: Thank you.

[00:01:20] Nathan: Okay, so if I were to put you in front of a room-

[00:01:22] Jasmine: Mm-hmm …

[00:01:22] Nathan: of 25 creators who are, I don’t know, making half a million dollars a year or more- Mm … and I was like, “Okay, you need to teach a workshop about your favorite thing”-

[00:01:30] Jasmine: Mm-hmm …

[00:01:31] Nathan: go. What would the topic be?

[00:01:33] Jasmine: Uh, making money from a digital offer.

[00:01:35] Like, I, I love it. It’s like I eat, breathe this stuff. I just think that there’s nothing right now in the market, and hasn’t preceded for many years, that has the profitability, the functionality, and the scalability of a digital offer. Especially if you’re having, like, a, a small team or no team at all. I’ve seen solopreneurs crush it, seven-figure businesses, solopreneur.

[00:01:52] Mm.

[00:01:52] Nathan: Okay. So when you say a digital offer, like what- Mm-hmm … are a few of the examples?

[00:01:55] Jasmine: Like- Okay. Well, we can talk- Yeah … about traditional, like we ta- old school, and then what I think is the future.

[00:01:59] Nathan: Okay.

[00:01:59] Jasmine: Are we really starting here, Nathan? We’re starting here. Are we hitting the ground running?

[00:02:02] Nathan: Oh, yeah. We’re

[00:02:03] Jasmine: diving right in.

[00:02:03] Oh, man. Okay. So this is the tea, and this is one girl’s perspective. But this is a girl who’s been in the game for well over a decade. Yep. And so we’ve seen a transition. And so when I entered the game roughly around 2016, um, I had entered into the market, I was a professional photographer traveling the world, trading- Mm-hmm

[00:02:19] hours for dollars.

[00:02:20] Nathan: Yep,

[00:02:21] Jasmine: time for money. Now… Yes. But it was, it was, it was great. I had created a seven-figure revenue stream. And I had, I was selling digital products at the time for like 399, 499 online- Mm-hmm … for photographers to build the business of their business. And so I kind of had a, a knack for photography, a knack for marketing, but blending those two kind of created like a force.

[00:02:38] So I was able to get all inbound. We were charging multiple six figures for complete collections for what we were shooting. So it was, there was that revenue stream, there was an online digital revenue stream, and then I had this idea. I didn’t even know where it came from, and here I thought, I was like, “Oh, I’m gonna create this thing that’s like an online class, and people are going to buy it.”

[00:02:59] Little did I realize that there were things like course platforms, things called webinars. Uh, there were ads. I had no clue. Yeah. And so, um, so I start off with a course for $197, and I had never created a course. I had never had a landing page. I, I didn’t, I didn’t know anything. Like, like Nathan, I had, I had a newsletter list, but it was on my blog, and it was just like an HTML code that I

[00:03:22] Nathan: had just put

[00:03:22] Jasmine: there.

[00:03:22] It’s just like the RSS feed. Just, yeah. Just sign up. It says that if you publish a, a post. Yes, of course. Yeah. Of course. But we, I had grown it all organically, and I was blogging. So I was writing about my photography, and lucky for me, SEO was kind of like my jam. Yeah. So that helped a lot. And so then my blog post would point to an online store.

[00:03:38] But here again, I was charging anywhere from like 499 to 1999. These were low-ticket items- Yeah … that people were buying, but I would wake up, and then I would see money. And I was like, “Wow, this is crazy.” Then I launched a course for $197, and in five days I made $255,000. Nathan.

[00:03:55] Nathan: A different life.

[00:03:56] Jasmine: A different… I mean, it was like, you know, Charlie Bucket, the Willy Wonka Char- Chocolate Factory.

[00:04:00] I was just like, “Oh my God, Grandpa Joe.” Like, our lives just changed. It was crazy. Went on to launch that course again two more times that year. So that 197 course ended up generating over seven figures- Mm … in one year. So I had my photography online store, I was still doing services for clients and editors and art directors, and I had this revenue stream.

[00:04:21] And to me, by that point in time, I was like a photographer like 13 years. Kind of rose to where I wanted to go, and then I realized I wanna go all in on this vehicle. Mm-hmm. And so started creating a multitude of courses, each turning into their own seven-figure revenue streams. And what I heard on the back of all the courses was people had wished that there was some sort of continuation.

[00:04:40] And a lot of what I was teaching was marketing and branding. And marketing at the time, specifically on social media, it was changing so fast that even though I was creating an evergreen course, people wanted to know the nuances. And at the time it was just like, well, what is the thing called stories? And then what is Instagram Live?

[00:04:53] Mm. And I just felt like kind of to create this new course every year, it just felt like very heavy. And so people were asking, “We want real up-to-date things.” And they were asking for a membership, and I was like, “Never. Never gonna do membership. Nope, nope, nope.” And then all of a sudden I thought to myself, “Okay, if we were to create a membership-” And 500 people joined.

[00:05:15] That MRR, okay, that might be, that might be something we could sink our teeth into. So when I say we, my husband and I, business partners, high school sweethearts. Th- I married up. This guy is great. Nobody understands why he’s married to me. Like, everybody always questions, like, “Bro, what happened?” He’s like, “I, like…”

[00:05:29] He somehow, he’s in. He’s in. He’s got beer goggles. And so, um, we, we stay up, and we know we don’t know any code. We don’t know anything we’re doing. Mm. And I don’t know… You, you know, dude. There was, uh, a company called Infusionsoft.

[00:05:42] Nathan: Yep,

[00:05:43] Jasmine: yeah. Dun-dun-dun. We built a membership off Infusionsoft.

[00:05:45] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:05:46] Jasmine: Just on the backend applying tags because n- the software at the time, this is where I’m gonna geek out, the software at the time was granting memberships all in access.

[00:05:54] So if you joined, you got access to everything that was with that, whatever was in that archive. And I had the school of belief, well, when you join this membership, you get what you get that month, and then months thereafter. You don’t get access to an immediate archive. Okay, right. So the only way that we were able to, like, work around this ghetto was Infusionsoft.

[00:06:09] So every month, they would get applied a tag that reflected in their accessibility. It was Frankensteined with WordPress and Infusionsoft. I’m telling you, brother, it was a nightmare. But, but it was, we took what we had, and then we made it work.

[00:06:22] Nathan: So there’s an important thing in there, ’cause everyone has, has done the standard way, which is you get…

[00:06:28] You, you know, you pay, I don’t know, $50 a month, right?

[00:06:31] Jasmine: Yeah.

[00:06:31] Nathan: And you get access to the entire back catalog and everything coming forward.

[00:06:35] Jasmine: Mm-hmm.

[00:06:36] Nathan: And then memberships have this massive problem. Yeah. That the churn is really, really high.

[00:06:41] Jasmine: Yes.

[00:06:41] Nathan: Everyone says, like, sees software and says, “Oh, I want recurring revenue-

[00:06:45] Jasmine: Yes

[00:06:46] Nathan: and all that, so let me do it with content,” and then they find that the churn is not 5% per month, it’s 15 or- Oh, yeah … percent, you know, and-

[00:06:53] Jasmine: Oh, yeah …

[00:06:53] Nathan: and all that. So but what you’re saying is like, no, no, no. You paid, in my made-up example, $50. Uh-huh. You get this $50 worth of content. You don’t get the back catalog.

[00:07:02] Jasmine: Correct. Okay. And at the time, this was 2017. Mm-hmm. Now, a lot has changed.

[00:07:06] Nathan: Yep.

[00:07:07] Jasmine: So when we go back to what was available, we took what was available and then Frankensteined a way that we could reverse engineer- Right … protecting that content, and I say protecting, and that probably what is probably myopic when I speak about it now, but at the time, I was just like, we were charging $29 a month in 2017.

[00:07:23] And I thought that that $29 is worth more than the value of a back catalog. Right. And so then what we did was we allowed people to go back and purchase individual, we called them issues, individual issues. Mm. So immediately, first month of the membership, we started realizing that when we first launched, we had a back catalog of three, and then that month.

[00:07:40] And people were coming in and not just buying the $29 for that monthly membership. They went back and bought the back catalog, and then a month later were charged another $29. So we saw LTV in months one, two, and three exceed what traditionally would be months one, two, and three because of the back catalog.

[00:07:54] Nathan: Okay.

[00:07:55] Jasmine: Mm-hmm.

[00:07:56] Nathan: I’ve, I’ve been in this business a long time.

[00:07:58] Jasmine: Uh-huh.

[00:07:58] Nathan: I have not heard that particular angle on it, but I like it because it changes the perceived value as well. Because so many people get access to the back catalog, binge it, and then end up paying for three more months maybe?

[00:08:09] Jasmine: Well, right now I think the average is less than three.

[00:08:11] Nathan: That’s probably, yeah.

[00:08:11] Jasmine: And so, t- so, and me- Okay. So we, we did that. Right. And I, I thought it was great, except for the fact that what we were creating on the inside of this membership was marketing content, teaching people how- Mm-hmm … to create their marketing for small businesses. So creators, small businesses, people who didn’t necessarily have an entire marketing team.

[00:08:28] So what we were doing is we were teaching the, the strategies, we were giving how-tos, we were giving examples, we were giving templates and resources. Right. All this came in a particular issue. And what I realized was people were learning how, and getting their marketing, but we weren’t integrated. And so they would have to go from our membership, download what they needed- Mm-hmm

[00:08:44] modify on their own, and they were creating their own systems on the backend for their, um, marketing. Okay. And that was a lot of friction. And so then what we decided to do in 2021 when the world was basically a dumpster fire, I know not a single line of code, and I’m like, “Okay, we have to build our own tech stack.”

[00:08:59] Nathan: Right.

[00:08:59] Jasmine: I need a CTO, I need a team. I was very much like Veruca Salt. “I want a Umpa Lumpa.” “I want a SaaS company and I want it now.” No idea. Like, no idea what I was doing. Holy… Like, somebody just, if I can go back to that girl, I would just pat her head, I would hug her- … and be like, “Girl, you, you step away from the tequila.

[00:09:16] We’re not doing this right now.” But we did. And so, uh, started our own tech company, and it was great. We integrate with every social platform- Yeah … that exists today. It is called Social Curator. And we started leveraging AI in 2021. Mm-hmm. So we started, like, very early, and I was like, “Oh my God.” So we were having what we called caption templates.

[00:09:35] And they, think about this as Mad Libs. And so y- let’s say you, the creator, would be able to go in and fill in the blanks, and they were, like, reverse engineered for engagement on social media. And I, and I would just dreamt, I was like, “If, if just one day we were able to have profiles for each of our customers and it would auto-populate in our templates.

[00:09:53] Man, golly gee willikers if that ever existed.” And so then 2021 comes around, and the tech team is really in learning about AI. We start leveraging it, and I’m like, “Oh my God, solution. Here we go. To the moon all the way.” And then by 2022, I’m like, “They’re gonna eat our lunch.” Like, it was clear we could not outpace Sam, Sam Altman.

[00:10:12] Yeah. You know, it was just not gonna happen. Me against, uh, OpenAI and- Him and his

[00:10:16] Nathan: billions.

[00:10:16] Jasmine: Yes. Yeah, absolutely. So, uh, you see the writing on the wall. Right. And you’re like, “What is happening to the industry, and where are we going?” So we’ll pause. In 2020, we saw a massive shift happen in the creator space.

[00:10:27] Right. And so what happened was people were at home more. They had more money. On average, the US household income in 2020 had $15,000 more. Yeah. So we saw social media increase by 40% during 2020. People on average had $15,000 per household, and we saw online shopping increase at almost a pace of 48%.

[00:10:49] Nathan: Right, and yous- I mean, you saw people traveling a lot less, a lot of discretionary spending-

[00:10:53] Jasmine: Of course

[00:10:54] Nathan: didn’t get spent- Of course … ’cause there wasn’t a good way to do it, and then you have stimulus checks- Stimulus checks … coming in.

[00:10:57] Jasmine: Exactly.

[00:10:58] Nathan: Yeah, all of those things.

[00:10:59] Jasmine: So it was perfect for people who had an online business. Not a business online.

[00:11:03] Nathan: Right.

[00:11:04] Jasmine: An online business. And so what you saw was massive growth spikes.

[00:11:08] So we just saw, like, compounding growth. So at the time, Social Curator, we had 6,500 members. Yeah. We had just started, and we opened cart for five days. And we got close to 10,000 people in five. And so we were like, “Oh my gosh.” Like, we just had like 34%- Right … growth in a matter of five days. And so we just saw this compounding growth over that year, and then that inspired a lot of people to go through.

[00:11:31] They bought courses. Mm-hmm. And then they think, “I’m a course creator,” which, hey, maybe you are. But did you count the cost of actual, um, deployment, fulfillment, customer service? Right. So 2021, 2022, you see a boomerang. People who launched creative endeavors realize that that’s a totally different game and a totally different skill set, and many people are just like, “I’m out.”

[00:11:51] Right. So it left a lot of people burned. So 2023, 2024, there’s a trust recession. People are trying to sell digital things online, and people are, like, a little skeptical. So it puts us in this phase of ’25, ’26, what is the future? So when you’re like, “When you talk about a digital resource, when you talk about online business, what are you talking about?”

[00:12:07] And I was like, “Well, the old way, courses, memberships, one-on-one, I think that there is a place for them. But I think that in order to be competitive and to go against the grain, when everybody’s zigging, you zag.” I really do believe what I’ve now coined as the hybrid offer, is that there is a piece that teaches somebody a result.

[00:12:27] Mm-hmm. Period, the end. Nobody wants more information, and no one’s really gonna buy information. That’s just the truth. So what you’re selling is how you get a particular result in a specific time ri- timeframe.

[00:12:37] Nathan: Okay.

[00:12:37] Jasmine: And so what we see on average is about 8% of people finish a course, and about, uh, average amount of time with people in a membership is less than three months.

[00:12:44] So what would somebody pay for a result in a certain amount of time? And so that is what we, that is what we teach, result in a timeframe, given support, period, the end. So the more people who get a result, the more people who refer you. And then when you make another offer that guarantees or promises a result in a given timeframe, now we have trust built.

[00:13:02] So now we’re rebuilding trust when there was a trust recession. Hmm. So we’re now combining a skill set, a result, and a transformation for our customer

[00:13:11] Nathan: Okay.

[00:13:11] Jasmine: Yeah.

[00:13:12] Nathan: I love this, and I love your passion behind it. Where, like, what’s an example of an offer in the old format, and then what it would look like rebuilt in this way?

[00:13:22] Jasmine: Okay, so a course. I help you lose weight.

[00:13:24] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:13:25] Jasmine: Let’s get a little bit more granular. I help women lose weight. And then let’s get even more granular. I help women in their 40s lose weight. Right. So we would see courses in that, in that way. Yeah. But what would happen was the nature is, like, I teach everything about a woman in their 40s.

[00:13:40] So hormones and eating and exercise and all these other things. So people are like, this is a complete, like, drinking from a, a, a fire hydrant.

[00:13:48] Nathan: Yep.

[00:13:48] Jasmine: And so people just don’t do it.

[00:13:49] Nathan: And, and so there’s no result, no

[00:13:51] Jasmine: behavior change. There’s no result, there’s no behavior change, and then there’s no further buying.

[00:13:54] Mm-hmm. They’re not gonna buy again from a person where they didn’t fulfill on the first thing. Right. So a hybrid offer now would be hyper-specific around a specific result. So I help women in perimenopause- Mm … lose 10 pounds and sleep through the night in 90 days. So now- Which is very specific … very specific.

[00:14:12] So people want results. They don’t want more information. Mm-hmm. And information is commoditized. So the more that you can get a transformation, a result, and then you support that result, because we know what happens. Is what I believe in a hybrid offer is the support is what guarantees the result. Because a woman in her 40s in meni- perimenopause can lose 10 pounds, but then what happens?

[00:14:28] There’s vacation, life changes. Right. You go… Like, a ton of things can happen. So as long as you help her get that result and keep it, she becomes a fan, she turns into a fanatic, and she’s the person who’s help endorsing and growing your business thereafter.

[00:14:40] Nathan: Okay. Yeah, that, that makes perfect sense. ‘Cause something that I think about a lot is what actually creates results is usually simple but not easy.

[00:14:48] Yes. And so if you think about weight loss or building a business or any fitness habit or anything else, when you talk to someone… I remember talking to someone who, I found out through, through the conversation, he was like, “Yeah, I used to weigh, like, 350 pounds.” And I was, like, shocked. ‘Cause I was like, “You don’t look like you ever…”

[00:15:02] You know? Yeah. I was like, “What did you do?” And he’s like, “Well, I, you know, tracked what I ate- Mm-hmm … and I exercised consistently.” I’m like, “And?” And he’s like-

[00:15:09] Jasmine: That’s it …

[00:15:10] Nathan: that’s the whole… You know. And he said this line of, like, “It’s simple, but it’s not easy.” Easy. And so what I hear you doing is- There’s an endless amount of information that you could learn.

[00:15:20] Jasmine: Mm-hmm.

[00:15:20] Nathan: And you’re saying, “I’m just gonna distill it down to this one very specific offer- Yep … then this, um, very specific outcome for a specific- Mm-hmm … type of person.” And it’s, it’s taking the niche down advice- Mm-hmm … and making it so much more specific, ’cause- Yeah … most people do it and, like, “Here’s who we’re targeting.”

[00:15:35] We’re actually doing it in terms of, “Here’s how we’re serving them.” And then just saying, “I’m gonna come alongside you- Yep … and make sure-

[00:15:43] Jasmine: Yep …

[00:15:44] Nathan: that we achieve the outcome.”

[00:15:45] Jasmine: Absolutely. And what, what ends up happening is that y- there’s an extension of brand. Mm. So a brand isn’t your name, it’s not a logo, it’s not your colors, it’s not your website.

[00:15:53] A brand is what you make somebody feel. And so what happens is when you have an evergreen piece of content that teaches somebody how to get a result, inevitably somebody will come across a pitfall, perceived or real. Right. And so when you show up and answer their question or support them or just say, “Hey, I see you,” what you made a person feel was seen, and a seen person will go to war for you.

[00:16:17] Nathan: Mm.

[00:16:17] Jasmine: And that dynamic really changes, and I do believe that with this, um… And I, and fully embrace, I love AI. I truly do. But when we see such this massive embracing of it, it’s gonna be super important to anchor as a point of differentiation a human element. Right. ‘Cause that’s gonna become more and more- rich, more valuable.

[00:16:35] Nathan: Yeah, I believe that very deeply. Where, okay, so we think about the structure of the offer.

[00:16:40] Jasmine: Mm-hmm.

[00:16:40] Nathan: How would you price the old offer, and how would you price the, the new offer? Like, if you were coaching a client going through this- Mm-hmm … or you know, another creator.

[00:16:47] Jasmine: We have a framework. So, uh, uh, with our methodology, we go towards the value, what we think that they would pay for it.

[00:16:53] And the reason why we’re doing this, okay, so Elon Musk-

[00:16:55] Nathan: Mm-hmm …

[00:16:56] Jasmine: sells a Cybertruck, but just sells the idea of it, and thousands of people are paying him $1,000 just to get on the list. Right. And so we see, uh, Jeff Bezos. He decides to have his friends and family buy a book on the internet. So what they’re doing is they’re selling, they’re pre-selling the idea.

[00:17:12] So my philosophy is what I’ve seen a lot of creators do, is come up with, “Uh, this is the thing. This is the idea. This is what people want.” And then they put it out there, and it’s, you know, like 1 or 2% of their audience will buy it. Right. And they’re like, “What happened? It must be me.” No, no, no. We’re just actually not really understanding who is it for, what do they value, and what are they inclined to pay.

[00:17:31] Mm-hmm. And so part of the methodology is not to come in with a pre-done idea. It’s to come in- Right … who do you wanna serve and what result do you think you can get? And then we have people interview their, what we think are their dream clients, have their dream clients actually say, without a pitch or anything, what they would actually pay for a transformation, and we’re leveraging two or three different transformations at one time.

[00:17:48] Yeah. So we’re, we’re really i- we’re really trying to build a business, not this is what I think it’s worth. Because oftentimes what I see, specifically for women, is that they over-deliver and then they under-price.

[00:17:58] Nathan: Yes.

[00:17:59] Jasmine: And so what we wanna do is really go in and just, like, test the market, see what the market will pay.

[00:18:02] And then I, I’m telling you like 8 out of 10 times people are like, “I can never charge that. I can never charge that.” And then we put it out in a seed launch, and then people pay. And that is like a frame breaker, that somebody would pay $500, $1,000 for this when they thought that they would be selling something for $87.

[00:18:18] Right, right. That’s the big thing. But we understand the market, and we understand what willing… what people are paying, not for a course, not for more information, but literally a result.

[00:18:25] Nathan: Yeah, so when you make that sh- that shift from information to outcomes- Yep … the willingness to pay is entirely different.

[00:18:31] Absolutely. ‘Cause I always think in terms of, like in business, of conversion rates, right? And where’s the friction in the steps, and it’s like, you know, in a funnel it’s if we get this many people in, then we work our way down. Yes. And I think a buyer thinks in those ways, where you’re almost discounting, like- Okay, if I would pay $10,000 if I could snap a finger-

[00:18:50] Jasmine: Yes

[00:18:51] Nathan: and have this outcome.

[00:18:52] Jasmine: Yes.

[00:18:53] Nathan: Well, now you have to, uh, think about, like, the time value of money, so you have to… Oh, it’s 90 days later, so it’s… Okay, it’s worth less to me. I can’t have it instantly.

[00:19:01] Jasmine: Yeah,

[00:19:01] Nathan: yeah. And then it’s like, well, what’s the likelihood that that information I’m buying is actually the, the information that’s gonna get me there?

[00:19:08] Jasmine: Yep.

[00:19:08] Nathan: Okay, and so we’re discounting further and further.

[00:19:10] Jasmine: Yes.

[00:19:11] Nathan: And so if I would pay $10,000 for the outcome, by the time I’m all the way back at, like, is your information gonna be the right information- Yes … am I gonna stick to it and all this, and then, like, we’re kind of back at $97. Yeah. You know?

[00:19:22] Jasmine: Yeah.

[00:19:23] Nathan: But if I was very, very confident that you would- Mm-hmm

[00:19:25] create that outcome for me-

[00:19:27] Jasmine: Mm-hmm …

[00:19:27] Nathan: you know, then I’m like, “Okay, five grand.” Mm-hmm. Two grand, you know, like, whatever it is. Yeah. I still have to put in the work. Yeah. But it’s a totally different way of pricing it.

[00:19:34] Jasmine: Absolutely. And one of the things that we realized, and so this is on the back of having courses that ranged from, well, we started off at 147, and then we worked our way upmarket.

[00:19:42] So a DIY course for $3,000. And what we heard again from the courses, even if, even if, so we had two tiers. You can buy the DIY course- Mm-hmm … or for a, somewhere between four or six weeks, I would go live and answer questions- Right … for the first four or six weeks of the program. And so even with that, people were saying, “I just wish I had somebody over my shoulder.”

[00:20:02] And- They

[00:20:02] Nathan: want another level beyond that …

[00:20:04] Jasmine: 100%. And then what I realized was, like, that’s not really gonna work. I- This was the same story that I told myself when it comes to building a membership, was, “That’s not me. That’s not going to work.” And then I heard it so many times, it was like a big slap to the face.

[00:20:16] And so then instead of saying, “That’s not gonna work,” I started asking, “Well, how could that work?”

[00:20:21] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:20:21] Jasmine: What would have to be true?

[00:20:23] Nathan: That, that is my favorite question in the entire world. Isn’t it? Is what would have to be true? Yeah. I ask that question all the time. My team both loves it and rolls their eyes.

[00:20:30] Jasmine: Everybody, but, uh, so I, I do, too, when it’s my own… Like, when I ask myself this question. Yeah. It’s like I, I have that same reaction. And then when we kind of just distilled what has to be true- Mm-hmm … when we laid it out, I looked at it and I, I asked myself,

[00:20:42] “Is that what you want to solve?” Is that. Because it’s not for everybody. Right. Like, systematizing a singular approach, training people on that approach, courting and cultivating and recruiting really talented business coaches to come in and use their experience, yes, but what we’re teaching is this.

[00:21:00] Nathan: Right.

[00:21:00] Jasmine: And this is the system. So a, a lot of times people are like, “Well, business is a mid of, a bit of art and science.” It is, but there’s a lot of science here.

[00:21:08] Nathan: Right.

[00:21:08] Jasmine: There’s a lot of science that can get us, like a, an outcome.

[00:21:11] Nathan: When the more specific you get on the outcome- Yes … the more it moves from art to science.

[00:21:15] Jasmine: Absolutely.

[00:21:15] Nathan: Like if we said, “Hey, we need to build a successful business that does half a million dollars a year in revenue,” there’s a thousand ways to do it.

[00:21:21] Jasmine: Yes.

[00:21:22] Nathan: But then if you compress the timeline-

[00:21:23] Jasmine: Yes …

[00:21:24] Nathan: and then you com- you know, the more constraints you put on it, the more it, it moves into science- Absolutely

[00:21:28] in a way that you’re like, “Great, then do steps A, B, and C in order.”

[00:21:31] Jasmine: Absolutely. And a lot of times the people we’re working with, they’re, um, “I don’t want to do webinars.” Mm-hmm. O- okay, great. “I don’t have an endless budget for ads or any money.” So we started- Right … understanding who the demographic was and then reverse engineering, well, what needs to be true for them for this system to work?

[00:21:46] And then we’re very forthcoming. Like, these are the steps you have to take. That might not be aligned for you. There’s, there’s literally 1,200 ways to get from California to New York. This is our one way. Right. We feel really good with this one way, and we see people get results. If that’s not aligned with you, no problem, but this is the one way.

[00:21:59] Mm-hmm. So we needed coaches that would really step into that and, and believe it. Right. And so that was one of the things that we stepped on. So now we have business coaches using our framework to help business owners create a digital offer in 90 days. Mm-hmm. So it’s, I call it a friendly pressure cooker.

[00:22:16] It’s like you want a digital offer that’s going to make money. We see people making money in the first 30 days. It’s just how bad do you want it?

[00:22:23] Nathan: I love that. Okay, so to get really specific then.

[00:22:25] Jasmine: Yeah.

[00:22:27] Nathan: Take us through the details of your offer.

[00:22:29] Jasmine: Mm-hmm.

[00:22:29] Nathan: Right? Because it’s always- Y- you take all the things that you learned- Mm-hmm

[00:22:32] and then you apply it in your own business. Yep. And so who do you, like, who’s the ideal client?

[00:22:38] Jasmine: Mm-hmm.

[00:22:38] Nathan: How do you price it? What’s the exact, uh, positioning-

[00:22:41] Jasmine: Yeah …

[00:22:42] Nathan: and the, and the promise?

[00:22:43] Jasmine: Yeah. So it- we were taking all of the information that we were getting, and we heard it from the SaaS side is like, “Jasmine, do you also provide social media managers?”

[00:22:52] So people wanted the solution. Right. They also wanted the implementation, and I didn’t want to build an agency. Yeah. That’s not at all what I had wanted. And so then what we heard on the back, of course, is, “Well, if I just had somebody looking over my shoulder.” Mm-hmm. “If I just knew that it was, that I was doing it right.”

[00:23:04] And so we found that our greatest clients are coming in two forms. The creator who has an audience but really doesn’t have the business acumen, and doesn’t really know where to begin, and gets, like, easily overwhelmed, like all the things. Where do I start? Yep. And then a service provider. So we see a lot of success from, like, one person in particular.

[00:23:20] She was a doula. Mm-hmm. And she’s based in Arizona, and she has four clinics, and she’s like, “I can’t keep on multiplying in this way.” And there was a lot of doulas who wanted her training. There was a lot of moms who wanted to sit under her tutelage. She was really good at what she did. So she created a digital offer, and then created rapidly growing six-figure revenue stream off a digital side of her rather dominant in-person business.

[00:23:41] Mm-hmm. So we see wedding planners. We see photographers. We see service providers do something really different and provide a service for those in their industry, and that’s become a big game changer. So creators with large audiences without knowing how to monetize, and service providers. Right. And then also people who have the dream.

[00:23:54] Mm-hmm. We see people coming in who’s like, um, like so for instance, there was a, a woman who worked at Kroger. Management. Worked all the way up. She has two kids, and she’s just like, “I really believe…” And I’m not gonna talk about specifically what her offer was. It’s not out into the world yet. But she was so saying, “I, I, I can’t stop thinking about it.”

[00:24:07] And to me, I look at that and I’m like, “You have the grit.” Yeah. You have the grit. So we can help you build the business and the offer, and you’re gonna have to work on building the audience. But, like, we can do that. But largely, it’s the creator and then the service provider that wants to get into digital.

[00:24:18] Nathan: Okay. And so then what’s the, the structure that you’re taking them through in, in I guess the support that you’re providing that? Yeah. And, and is it a 90-day timeline?

[00:24:28] Jasmine: It is a 90-day timeline.

[00:24:28] Nathan: Okay.

[00:24:29] Jasmine: It’s a 90-day timeline. And so that’s what it is. It’s a result in a specific timeframe. Mm-hmm. That is the hybrid offer.

[00:24:34] Our result is a system and your streamlined business to consistent 10K months. And that’s the floor. That’s not the ceiling. Yeah. But what… And, and it’s crazy ’cause I had hundreds of conversations with people, and I kept on asking, like, “What’s the magic number?” And I heard it a- again and again. I heard two things.

[00:24:49] Mm-hmm. Financial freedom, financial freedom. And so I heard so many times, and we’re like, “Wait a minute. What are people’s definition of financial freedom?” Right. And I was like, “I wave a magic wand and my magic just happens right now. What, like, what, what does it look like?” And people are like, “I could just make $10,000 a month.”

[00:25:02] Mm-hmm. And my mind was blown ’cause I kept on hearing it again, and again, and again. Right. So what we did in titling the offer was just reverse engineer what they told us. Consistent 10K. Mm-hmm. Like, that’s what they wanted. But then a crazier thing happened, is when we made that the title, when I was sitting…

[00:25:17] So I did sales calls at the beginning, ’cause I’m just gonna get in the mud. I’m gonna figure out- Right … where the biggest obstacles are. I’m gonna f- like really go in and hone in on the script of what we were gonna be telling people. And they s- what I heard again and again, “Well, that’s too good to be true.”

[00:25:30] So- You, okay … we heard they, everybody w-, like hundreds, hundreds of- Yeah … conversations I had. This was what they wanted, and then we put it out, and, “Well, that’s just too good to be true.” So what I’ve started realizing is the minute I started asking people, “But what would change?” And Nathan, $4,000 a month That will, and I am talking about again and again.

[00:25:49] Now, I would say 95 of the pe- 95% of the people that are interested, interested in this offer are women.

[00:25:55] Nathan: Yep.

[00:25:55] Jasmine: So that plays into it. But when I deeply understood that women who still maybe still have their jobs but would like- Mm-hmm … an additional $4,000, or they are stay-at-home moms who want to work while their kids are at school, but they want the flexibility of it.

[00:26:08] Right. $4,000, Nathan, shifts everything in their reality, and that they get to do it from home. And so I started realizing, okay, that there was something, like, deeply embedded here, and so we created the 4K Freedom Formula. We, me, and my husband. So I said, how do you explain this really simple way of walking people through the process?

[00:26:30] And I’m gonna tell you the four steps of the 4K- of the 10K Freedom Formula, but you’re gonna think, Jasmine, that’s, that’s, that’s stupid. That everybody knows that. And so what I’ve done is I’ve collapsed a decade of experience- Mm-hmm … into something formulaic. So what I’m about to tell you is not gonna blow your mind.

[00:26:45] You’re gonna be like, “Okay, and?” So step one is to clarify your message- Mm-hmm … and your niche. Like, this is, this is groundwork.

[00:26:52] Nathan: Yep.

[00:26:53] Jasmine: With so much noise, the way that you cut through the noise is not by being louder, but it’s by being very specific. Mm-hmm. So we’re gonna hone in on who that person is, and we’re gonna speak a message to their pain point.

[00:27:03] Like, we want the nail through the foot type of pain. Somebody who says, like, “Just anything, but get me out of this pain,” that’s the kind of messaging that we want. Or, “Get me the solution. Sell me the dream-” Yeah … “life of my foot without the pain.”

[00:27:14] Nathan: Right.

[00:27:14] Jasmine: And then part two is to create marketing just for that person because now the algorithm has been so specific.

[00:27:21] It’s so good at showing people just what you’re talking about, not necessarily to your followers. Much to the chagrin of a lot of people. So if you are speaking to a specific person about a specific thing, the algorithm will actually show it, maybe not to a lot of people, but to a lot of people who could potentially put money in your pocket.

[00:27:35] Mm-hmm. And then once you have marketing that’s really effective speaking to somebody who wants a solution, then what we do is we move towards engagement. And so a lot of times people struggle initially, like, just to set up a funnel. What do I say? All of the tech involved. That will come, but how about we learn how to have a conversation?

[00:27:51] Right. And so we move them into Instagram DMs. Have a conversation, realize what this person wants, and don’t hesitate to make an offer, and then you can get them into funnels, and then you can get them offers. But in the beginning, it’s like, how do we build trust now? It’s less with a megaphone and more with a handshake.

[00:28:05] Mm. And that’s what we’re seeing. So that main trust-come-building pony is gonna be into DMs, and then you’re gonna get them into the business. And step four of the 4K Freedom Formula is to build systems that scale.

[00:28:15] Nathan: Mm.

[00:28:15] Jasmine: Like, it’s not rocket science. It’s simple. It’s not easy.

[00:28:21] Nathan: Yeah, I think that’s something that I see over and over again in businesses that scale, is that they usually achieve that scale through simplifying- Yeah

[00:28:29] and reducing. And everyone’s like, you know, “Nathan or Jasmine, like, give me the secret to break through- Yeah … whatever number or whatever else.” And, you know, it’s this hard thing where you’re like There isn’t one. Yeah. Like, there’s, uh, you know, it’s, it’s the things that you already know or that you’ve heard repeated over and over again.

[00:28:46] Yep. But actually executed really well.

[00:28:48] Jasmine: Yep.

[00:28:49] Nathan: And actu- like, a level of focus and discipline that most people aren’t used to. Mm-hmm. And because they do things like they listen to podcasts like this, and then they get a new idea, and they run off and go chase a shiny object, and they do something. You know, they’re like, “Oh, someone was just on saying that LinkedIn is the next thing,” or that, you know- Yeah

[00:29:05] whatever else. TikTok Shop is the next thing, and then they jump from thing to thing.

[00:29:08] Jasmine: Yep.

[00:29:08] Nathan: And instead, you’re like, “Look, here’s the four things that matter.” Yep. Nail each one of them. Do it in sequence.

[00:29:12] Jasmine: Yes.

[00:29:13] Nathan: And I promise you it’ll work.

[00:29:14] Jasmine: And then do it, do it again, and again, and again. Mm-hmm. And then continue doing it when it doesn’t work, and continue to do it when there’s crickets because every iteration is actually illuminating the next step.

[00:29:24] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:29:24] Jasmine: And so it, it, it, it, it, it almost happens seamlessly, but it only g- it only rewards those who don’t stop walking.

[00:29:32] Nathan: Right.

[00:29:32] Jasmine: And many people will get the system, and then they just stop. And if anything, if I’ve learned anything in my career is, like, success only goes to those who don’t stop walking.

[00:29:42] Simple, not easy

[00:29:43] Nathan: Yeah. I mean, the first rule of compounding is to not interrupt it prematurely. Oof. And almost everyone interrupts it prematurely. Yes. That’s a, uh… Is that a Buffett or a Munger quote?

[00:29:51] Jasmine: I

[00:29:51] Nathan: don’t know. Both of them. One of those two, but We love them. Both of them, yeah. Okay, so in that specific offer, what does the support look like?

[00:29:58] ‘Cause I think a lot of creators listening are gonna totally understand the clarify the offer- Mm-hmm … um, all that. Okay, great, I now have a, a promise and outcome.

[00:30:08] Jasmine: Mm-hmm.

[00:30:08] Nathan: Oh, 90 days, that’s smart. Mm-hmm. That, you know, all that.

[00:30:11] Jasmine: Mm-hmm.

[00:30:11] Nathan: And I know how to film the videos, and I know how to- Mm-hmm … write the emails, but, like, what do you actually provide on ongoing support?

[00:30:17] Jasmine: It’s as much as what a client wants. So there was the old way of coaching- Mm-hmm … which what we saw a lot of, which would be you’d meet with your coach by 30 minutes once a week. But what we started seeing was that people became inactive about a day or two after meeting with the coach. Or they would say, “Okay, well, I’m gonna- Right

[00:30:32] hold off a little bit and come back.” So what we created is asynchronous coaching. So you are going to be submitting a question to your coach, and your coach gets back to you that day with a video response with your worksheet. So they’re like, “Let’s walk through this. Now, I’ve noticed this in your niche.

[00:30:44] Let’s take this back to- Mm-hmm … your beta testers. Let’s see what they’re saying with this. When are you gonna get this done?” And then you respond Thursday. So that your coach is like, “Hey, Nathan, it’s Thursday, tell me about the responses.” Mm-hmm. So they become almost like a, a project manager staying to the system, keeping you accountable.

[00:30:58] Because what we heard was not a matter of I don’t know what to do. We’ve laid everything out.

[00:31:03] Nathan: Right.

[00:31:03] Jasmine: It is somebody telling you what to do, when to do it, and how to do it. And oftentimes you get… A lot of times people are uncomfortable creating content in a way that they haven’t before, AKA more than once every three weeks whenever you feel like it.

[00:31:17] Nathan: Right.

[00:31:17] Jasmine: So in order for an online offer to work, you have to create content. It’s just conversations to let people know what it is you do, and yet we stop ourselves for fear of judgment, fear of success, fear of failure, whatever it may be. So then you have a coach who’s saying, “Well, okay, what we put in is what we get out.

[00:31:32] So do you wanna put in one post this week, or are you planning on putting in four? What’s your number?” Right. And then they keep you to the four. They’re just like, “Okay, we’ve noticed that there was two post out. You gotta post on Saturday, or we’re gonna miss the goal. Do I have your commitment for that?”

[00:31:43] Mm-hmm. And really it is project management support and accountability.

[00:31:48] Nathan: Yeah, and I, I think being that mirror to reflect back of like you told me-

[00:31:51] Jasmine: Yes …

[00:31:52] Nathan: when you signed up- Yes … that you wanted this outcome in 90 days. Yes.

[00:31:54] Jasmine: Yes.

[00:31:54] Nathan: We reverse engineered all the steps.

[00:31:56] Jasmine: Yes.

[00:31:57] Nathan: Uh, and, and just saying, like, “So what commitment are you gonna make?”

[00:32:00] Yes. And it’s like, “Oh, well, I’m gonna … I’ll have this done by Thursday.”

[00:32:02] Jasmine: Yes.

[00:32:03] Nathan: And so then Wednesday being like, “Okay. So- Yeah … where, where is it?” You know?

[00:32:07] Jasmine: You know, I, um, you and I are, are fans of Sam Parr.

[00:32:11] Nathan: Uh-huh. Sam’s the best.

[00:32:11] Jasmine: And, uh, on his podcast, My First Million, he often talks about… And no, Sam’s fit. Okay?

[00:32:16] The guy’s, like, built. Yes, he is. Like, his muscles have muscles, right? Yep. It’s like his six-pack has a 14-pack. And so, and he posts often about this. And he says that he, uh, subscribes to a daily check-in- Mm-hmm … from, like, a, a food coach. Yeah,

[00:32:28] Nathan: m- uh, My Body Tutor, I think,

[00:32:29] Jasmine: is the company. Yes. Yeah. Okay, okay. I heard this years ago, and I’m driving and I hear this.

[00:32:34] I was like, “Why does Sam need an accountability buddy?” “That’s crazy.” And what I realized was you don’t need the accountability, but to have somebody over your shoulder. And what he would said, he would, he would take a picture of everything he ate, and he would send it to his coach. Like, “I’m keeping accountable to you.”

[00:32:51] And I thought that was bat trash crazy. And what I realized is that it is so effective. Mm. And I kind of ate my own dog food, and I said, “Okay, well, this is… I’m creating an offer for something that I don’t necessarily need for myself when it comes to business, but this is what I heard. The market’s never wrong.”

[00:33:07] And then at the top of 2026, I decide to invest in a rather very high-ticket offer for a nutrition and a fitness coach. And when I told my family what I had invested, they’re like, “Oh, my. Que loca. Oh, my God, you’re crazy.” Like, this is like, what are you doing? And what I realized was my coach is watching every caloric value I input.

[00:33:28] Mm-hmm. Asking me to upload workout videos, asking me to keep track. So I l- it’s like a part-time job, but I have never gotten this result in the entirety of my life. And it feels like- Right … I’ve been dieting for as long as I can remember. So to get a result seeds more desire- Right … to keep the result, and that’s what paying for have- somebody having eyes on your stated outcome, and then that person holds you accountable.

[00:33:50] Nathan: What I like about this is that everyone defaults to the call as a way to provide-

[00:33:56] Jasmine: Yep. You see it.

[00:33:57] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:33:58] Jasmine: You see it.

[00:33:58] Nathan: And, and they either do it in a one-on-one call. Yep. Like, I am your coach. Yep. You’re probably paying me thousands of dollars a month for this to be, or, or say at least $1,000 a month- Mm-hmm. Yep

[00:34:08] for it, it to be worth it for the time investment and everything else. Or we’re doing it in a group coaching format.

[00:34:13] Jasmine: Right.

[00:34:14] Nathan: And that’s like, I feel like that’s optimizing for the information being shared again.

[00:34:21] Jasmine: Again.

[00:34:21] Nathan: Whereas you went straight to it and you’re like, “No, it’s the accountability.” Yeah. Like, you already have the information.

[00:34:25] You already have the playbook. Yeah. It’s the accountability that matters, and we don’t need a 30-minute or a 90-minute- No … Zoom call- No … to get the accountability. No. You actually need those 30 to 90 minutes to do the

[00:34:35] Jasmine: thing. 100%. 100%. And that’s what we, that’s what we realized. And I think that there was a lot, there is a lot of pushback because people come in and they have this preconceived notion of what coaching is.

[00:34:43] “Well, no, if I don’t get my, my f- 30 minute every week”, and I’m like, “Okay, no problem. This is not for you.” The way we actually get the quick results, the way we see people making money in 30 days, is not by a weekly check-in. It is literally y- you send us five questions in a day, and you get five responses back in a day.

[00:34:59] No, we move fast.

[00:35:01] Nathan: Okay, so I’m thinking about w- what else is important in the, this asynchronous accou- like, coaching and accountability? Mm-hmm. Because people are not talking about this enough.

[00:35:09] Jasmine: Mm-hmm.

[00:35:09] Nathan: Like, I, I imagine there’s

[00:35:12] Jasmine: a bunch of things. Are we spilling the tea right now? I, I think we

[00:35:12] Nathan: are. I

[00:35:12] Jasmine: mean, are we, like, making waves, Nathan?

[00:35:14] Let’s go.

[00:35:16] Nathan: Well, because everyone defaults to the exact same models. Yes. And they don’t realize-

[00:35:19] Jasmine: Because this model, Nathan, will knock the air out of your freaking lungs. I am surprised. I, I should probably be wearing veneers. Like, I’m probably walking around with an iron lung after being punched in the back so many times from this business model.

[00:35:30] But yeah, we can talk about that, too. So- It’s hard, dude. It is hard. So- It’s a people business.

[00:35:36] Nathan: Yeah. Uh, okay, so what goes into the accountability behind the scenes? Like, as an operator at scale- Yes … like, how do you pull that off for not just 10 clients or- Yeah … 50 clients, but, but doing it for

[00:35:48] Jasmine: hundreds? Okay, so this is where I will say I am nothing without the team.

[00:35:52] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:35:52] Jasmine: The team are system driven. Mm-hmm. This, the … You have to have, like, operators on operators for this level of success and guaranteed outcomes. So we have an ROI guarantee. If you do the work, and we have our coaches keeping you accountable. Yeah. If you do the work, and in 90 days do not make back what you invested in the program, we’re gonna work with you another 90 days.

[00:36:09] Like, we know it works. Mm-hmm. We’ve just seen it work. And so very few people will do that, but I’m just like, “We don’t mess around.”

[00:36:15] Nathan: Okay, there’s an important thing in your ROI guarantee. I hear people say that, and I think there’s a big trap that they run into, where they say If you don’t achieve this outcome-

[00:36:25] Jasmine: Mm-hmm

[00:36:25] Nathan: in the promised time period, we will give you your money back. And I think that’s a terrible thing to do.

[00:36:30] Jasmine: I do, too.

[00:36:31] Nathan: Because it puts you at odds.

[00:36:33] Jasmine: Yes.

[00:36:33] Nathan: Where now you’re trying to help the client achieve the outcome. Yes. And they’re sort of like, “I mean”-

[00:36:38] Jasmine: Yes … ”

[00:36:39] Nathan: we’ll see.”

[00:36:39] Jasmine: Yes.

[00:36:39] Nathan: You know? Yes. But what, so you had the ROI guarantee.

[00:36:42] Yeah. And I, like, cringed slightly. Yeah. And then you said what it was. Okay. And it was the, “We’ll work with you another 90 days.” Mm-hmm,

[00:36:47] Jasmine: mm-hmm.

[00:36:48] Nathan: And it’s like, oh, no we’re just aligned-

[00:36:50] Jasmine: Yeah …

[00:36:51] Nathan: for the

[00:36:52] Jasmine: outcome. We’re aligned available.

[00:36:52] Nathan: And so it, it’s a, like, I think most people would miss that difference, and it’s a very, very important

[00:36:56] Jasmine: difference.

[00:36:56] Thank you for pointing it out. Thank you for it. But I, I will say, uh, probably, you know, a few times a week, um, I will hear people say, “Okay, well, um, I want the ROI guarantee to be that when I make that money, then I’ll buy the course. So I would like to get access to the hybrid offer. I would like to get access to your program-” Yep

[00:37:13] “your method, and when I make the money, I’ll make it back.” I was like, “Heck no. Heck no. I believe in me, babe.” Yep. “I don’t know if you’re gonna show up and do the work. Like, I will. I don’t know about you.” So, um, but yes, and so the operator’s on operators. And so the, the key thing here is, yes, I sit as CEO, and yes, we still have Social Curator, and yes, there are still DIY courses.

[00:37:31] But my main focus, it’s like I am focusing on one thing- Mm-hmm … and that is a consistent 10K. It is a new business model. It’s forcing me to develop muscles I never thought- Mm … I would even possess. And so I’m thankful. There is a future version of me who’s looking back at me and saying, “Baby girl, good job.”

[00:37:46] Like, “We don’t know how you’re getting out of bed every morning, but God bless.” Yep. Like, you, you, you’ll, you’ll hang, girl. You’ll hang. So, uh, we have a director. Mm-hmm. And then we have a head of customer success. And underneath the customer success, we have lead support, and then we have a team of coaches.

[00:38:00] And right now we have seven.

[00:38:01] Nathan: Okay.

[00:38:02] Jasmine: We like to keep it really small. We wanna make sure that the people that we’re working with understand our core values, are fully signed up, and, and understand. Mm-hmm. They’re all experienced coaches. That’s gonna be, like, a major thing. You have to have street credibility.

[00:38:12] You have to do something on your own and/or coach other people to do it. Right. So they come in, they adhere to our program, and so we have the coaching board. And so what I’m going through is we do all asynchronous communication in Slack. So e- I have purview of everything. I am reading every conversation.

[00:38:25] I am seeing every single client. Whether or not I’m interjecting, that’s neither here nor there. I need to see the trends. I need to make sure that any gaps are, like, fulfilled, and I need to make sure, how are we responding? What is the expectation? Where are we at? And so where I see myself in guiding that team is going in, and every eight weeks, I’m having a coaching board meeting where I get to share a vision, what’s on my heart, what’s on my mind.

[00:38:46] What is our level of accountability? How are we serving these people? So I- it’s pure vision casting for that arm of the business because the operators in it are so fully dialed in. Mm-hmm. And the coaches, the, it works so well because there are people who are made for coaching and maybe not so much made for, like, the drive of building their own book of clients.

[00:39:01] And so this is, like, really satiating and fulfilling for them, and we’ve operationalized that they get to just be in their superpower.

[00:39:08] Nathan: Right.

[00:39:08] Jasmine: Show up and serve, make sure they get it done, and then people, when they get the results, it’s really fulfilling for them. So we have operationalized a part of their business they didn’t really actually want to do.

[00:39:17] They get to stay in their superpower. I cast vision. And then we have the arm that is marketing, and we have the arm that is sales. So sales, marketing, and customer success.

[00:39:25] Nathan: Mm-hmm. Okay. So let’s dive into the marketing side then.

[00:39:28] Jasmine: Yeah.

[00:39:28] Nathan: W- as you bring in these l- you know, these leads, people who are interested, what does the top of the funnel look like?

[00:39:34] Jasmine: Well, okay, so this is a little bit crazy. So I told you that this offer’s been around for six months. Yeah. And in the beginning, I wanted to see, I wanted to break my frame of what was possible.

[00:39:42] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:39:43] Jasmine: So I said, “Can we just launch this thing on a DM funnel?” Like, let me see. Right. Let me build a system. Let me bring my own brain.

[00:39:50] You’re

[00:39:50] Nathan: putting a

[00:39:51] Jasmine: constraint

[00:39:51] Nathan: on it to say- Absolutely … I, I used to sell in all these other ways.

[00:39:53] Jasmine: Yes.

[00:39:53] Nathan: We’re just gonna do this one method.

[00:39:54] Jasmine: Absolutely. And then I set a goal in 2026 to add four different types of funnels. Like, w- whether or not we’re gonna hit it, I like- Okay … I just like it. Come on, let’s play big, right?

[00:40:03] Let’s play big. And I don’t want just an average funnel. I want, like, the mack daddy Cadillac of funnels. Yeah. And I want four up and going. And I watch numbers and metrics like it’s my job, because it is. So this DM funnel was promising enough that we were getting cost per conversations for, like, $4, and then we were dropping in a VSL, and we were watching click-through response rate when people were dropping off, and I kept on iterating on the VSL.

[00:40:27] And this was me still in that proof of concept phase. Mm-hmm. It’s like, can we turn somebody from the internet with the right messaging into a high-ticket offer? Mm-hmm. Does that actually work? And so a bunch of constraints, quite bit of doubt, and then actually seeing that it works. And I’m like, “Huh. All right.”

[00:40:44] January, we introduce a webinar funnel. Now, that’s the school I dwelt in. That’s the world. Yeah. So I tried a few different topics. I think we’re still iterative. I have one solid one, and then I want to introduce more industry-specific style ones, kind of hone in on that messaging, create evergreen funnels and specific ad targeting, because Andromeda is so phenomenal right now.

[00:41:02] Like, it’s so good that, yes, it might cost more for a CPL, but they’re gonna be so much more qualified and more inclined buyer. Mm-hmm. So the more finite I get with… Because the offer works. We know exactly who we’re targeting. Right. But if I say service-based business, it’s less likely to land than if I was like a chiropractor, a doula- Mm-hmm

[00:41:18] a photographer. So that’s gonna be, like, in the future. What we have is a DM funnel- A webinar funnel, and then we have a n- no-show funnel that only exists in email. Okay. So if you sign up, you don’t come, I’m sending a micro-training. And so we’re tagging every single one to say, where is this lead gen?

[00:41:35] Because on average, which nothing to brag about, it’s, like, I would… We’re, we’re working on our show-up rate, but our aver- our sh- average show-up rate is 24%. Yeah. Not ideal, but that means that there’s 76% of the people who signed up that are not getting access. I don’t really believe in a replay. Most people don’t watch it.

[00:41:49] I feel like it’s a waste of time, and then it just kind of, like, sits there. I wanna create something that’s fast and expiring. So I said, “I created a micro-training. You could watch this micro-training,” and if enough interest is sparked, they’re gonna either gonna go back to the webinar or they’re gonna go straight to book a call.

[00:42:01] Depends on how hot that lead is. And so that’s where we’re at right now, and I do believe we’re gonna be creating another funnel around the summertime. And so it’s us, like, creating the system, testing the system, fortifying the system, starting super scrappy- Mm … and just going. I mean, it is so scrappy right now, Nathan, and I feel like, mm, the humility it takes to understand that it used to look one way, and you used to have time.

[00:42:25] And what has changed is there’s less time, more competition, more fake, more noise. How do you serve a specific person with a specific outcome in the quickest amount of time? And I have to say, that’s gonna come at the cost of things being beautiful and branded. It’s, can I get you something- Right … that changes your dang life, and it might be in a black-and-white PDF.

[00:42:43] Maybe. Maybe.

[00:42:45] Nathan: What I respect so much is you getting to, like, the top of the game in the course, community, like, that whole space, and then constantly- … questioning and reinventing and out. So many people get comfortable, and then at some point they realize, like, oh, why, you know, does what worked in 2020- Yeah

[00:43:04] not work today, right? Mm-hmm. It’s like, well, a lot has changed. Yeah. So you’re constantly reinventing. But I, so I wanna go upstream one more notch- Yeah … from the webinar and, and DMs. Are you, is that mostly paid traffic to get people to that? Or is it your organic social posts? It’s

[00:43:19] Jasmine: a mix. Okay. It’s a mix. And I know that, so I, what I wanted to do is to get proof of concept from a warm audience.

[00:43:24] But is that really proof of concept- Mm-hmm … as much as it is, like, people know, like, and trust you have been in the game for over a decade. Right. And they’re gonna be like, “Okay, I get it.” You throw an offer in front of them.

[00:43:30] Nathan: You get results. And they’re like.

[00:43:31] Jasmine: Yeah. Yes. And so, um, what we wanted to do was to start mixing it, but not at the cost of a, of, of our profitability.

[00:43:37] Right. Like, we knew that warm was gonna be converting higher for less. And so we’ve been in, kind of in this, like, transition point now, like six months into it, venturing more and more into cold traffic. Mm-hmm. So yes, we’re running ads. Um, but we keep them as low CPLs. I’m not trying to say like, “I need a mega launch.”

[00:43:52] I’m not on that timeline. Yeah. I’m in the long game here. I would rather focus on getting the right message to the right person at the right cost than me trying to be like, “I need 2,000 people to sign up right now.” Mm-mm.

[00:44:01] Nathan: Yeah. Okay. And then those web- webinars that you’re running, are those real time, top

[00:44:05] Jasmine: live?

[00:44:05] Real time. Okay. I show my phone. You know, like, people always doubt. I always start it with the same. Today is June 27th. I’ll hold it up. Yeah. And we don’t send out the replay because- Yeah … we want it to be real- Yeah … and in time. Mm-hmm.

[00:44:16] Nathan: And is that, you’re doing, like, one webinar a week? What’s the cadence that you do?

[00:44:20] Jasmine: Um, it, it’ll change depending. Like, so for, y- you know, in the month of May, because it was a holiday, we decided not to do one. Mm-hmm. So we’ll, we’ll do them, like, maybe two or three times a month.

[00:44:27] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:44:28] Jasmine: Mm-hmm.

[00:44:28] Nathan: That makes sense.

[00:44:28] Jasmine: Mm-hmm.

[00:44:29] Nathan: Um, I, I like the hold up the phone. Yeah. It’s basically like the, uh, the hostage proof of life.

[00:44:35] Jasmine: Yes. Like, hold up the, the newspaper. It is a newspaper. Yes. I am a real person. Exactly. Exactly. I want- ‘Cause you know there’s, like, all these, like, tricks and people- Oh, there’s- But it’s the trust recession. Mm-hmm. So I find myself having to over-index, and I’m okay with it. Right. Because gangsters are okay over-indexing.

[00:44:47] Like, I’ll show you. I’ll open my kimono. You’ll see it all. Yeah. Like, you wanna play this way? Let’s go. Mm-hmm.

[00:44:52] Nathan: Okay, so what else are you doing to over-index on trust?

[00:44:55] Jasmine: Uh, go- going live. Mm. Noth- It, it’s unrivaled. It’s unrivaled because everything now is edited for the .6 second attention span.

[00:45:03] Nathan: Yep.

[00:45:03] Jasmine: Like, every good editor will tell you to move the frame .6 seconds for a short-form vertical video.

[00:45:08] And so our brains are shifting. So when you are going live, when I’m going live on Instagram, and then there’s, like, a, a brain fart, or somebody sneezes in the background, or if I bring somebody on camera with me and they’re, like, in a bathrobe, and you’re like, “Oh, my, oh, my.” And so pe- when people get to see the real un- literally unfiltered version of you, their trust in you just raises.

[00:45:27] This is unrivaled. Mm. So outside of in-person events, which are hard-

[00:45:32] Nathan: Yep …

[00:45:32] Jasmine: and expensive, going live is the second-best thing. Mm. And just bringing people on, talking to them, seeing them, report, like, re- reiterating their question to make them know that you saw them and you heard them and you’re serving them, game changer.

[00:45:47] Nathan: Mm. Yeah, it’s so interesting because- As I’ve been, you know, taking social content a little more seriously, something that my team kept pointing out is that when I deliver, like, to the camera-

[00:45:57] Jasmine: Dude, same …

[00:45:58] Nathan: all of that, it’s-

[00:45:59] Jasmine: Same … th-

[00:45:59] Nathan: they’re like, “Nathan- I know … you’re doing your speaking voice again.”

[00:46:02] Jasmine: Yeah, they call it my professor voice.

[00:46:04] Oh, yeah. “Hi, welcome. I’m Nathan Congett now.” ”

[00:46:07] Nathan: In today’s episode.”

[00:46:08] Jasmine: Yes.

[00:46:09] Nathan: And so we started doing more where we’ll just be sitting in a podcast studio. Yes. Thankfully, we have lots of podcast studios at

[00:46:15] Jasmine: Kit. Yes, swag. You know? Yes, Kit, let’s go.

[00:46:17] Nathan: And, uh, they’ll just be like, “Ask questions.” And sometimes I’ll slip into it, and they’ll be like-

[00:46:21] Jasmine: You did it

[00:46:21] Nathan: “You’re doing it again.” Yes. “There’s no cameras here.” And I had one where like, uh, I was talking about ano- another podcast called TBPN that sold to OpenAI, and I was talking about that story. And I watched the clip back, and I was like, “This is bad.” Like, the retention, you know, like, I’m, like, looking up. I’m li- you know.

[00:46:40] And that did, like, s- 50,000 views. Mm-hmm. And I was like, “Wait a second. How did that do really well?” Mm. And they’re like, “Because it was an interesting story- Yeah … and you came off as authentic.” Real. Mm-hmm. “It came off as real.” Mm-hmm,

[00:46:48] Jasmine: mm-hmm.

[00:46:50] Nathan: And so it’s so interesting of, like, changing when we think, “Okay, the bar is here.

[00:46:54] I’ve gotta-

[00:46:54] Jasmine: Oh, yeah …

[00:46:54] Nathan: show up in that way.” And it’s like-

[00:46:55] Jasmine: Oh, yeah …

[00:46:56] Nathan: no, you just- No … you need to connect

[00:46:58] Jasmine: And if you can hold somebody’s attention… So actually, here’s, here’s the tea. Here’s stuff that, that the iterative process and, like the iterative process and the ideation process. I often sit with my husband every morning.

[00:47:08] What we try to do at minimum is to get, like, about 21 minutes undisturbed before our daughter wakes up.

[00:47:13] Nathan: Okay.

[00:47:13] Jasmine: So we make our coffee, and we’re, like, silently sitting in the living room, and one of the things that I had said is, like, I see so much of live, real, long form being, being a thing, and then obviously cutting it into micro-content that serves in different ways, but, like, people going deep.

[00:47:27] And I’d always joked, I’d always joke growing up. I’m like, “I belong on QVC.” Like, I can talk. Like, I can sell you that iced coffee from Blue Bottle. I will tell you about that bean roast. I will hold it up. Whatever it is. I’ll make sure that happens. Whatever it is because I understand the power of connectivity with people.

[00:47:41] Mm-hmm. I’m a, I’m a human. Like, everything I do is rooted in sales psychology. Like, psychology of the brain. What gets somebody to buy? Literally buy a theory, buy a vote, buy ideology, buy a religion. I’m so fascinated with this. And so I had said that I firmly believe that despite my best efforts in creating content, both with a DSLR and an iPhone, and doing the preplanned, not planned, off the cuff, I said, “I think it would be unrivaled if I had a call-in show.

[00:48:08] And I do a call-in show, and this is what I do. This is, like, the Latina version of Dave Ramsey.” Yep. Maybe not so, uh, political on one end or the other, but it’s like we’re talking business. Right. Like, this is what we do. And I was like, “I kind of feel like that would be my jam.” And he’s like, “Well, then what’s stopping you?”

[00:48:22] And I was like, “Well, I, like, it’s a studio. It’s who’s gonna vet these callers? Like, how does it look?” Mm. And so then I made the commitment that I’m like, “No, you’re going back to always how you started.” It’s like you take what you have. And so I went back. So three years ago, I did this thing called Coffee and Conversations.

[00:48:36] Every Tuesday at 9:00 AM, I would get a French press. I would make coffee, and people would come in and ask questions, and I would do it for about 30 to 35 minutes, and it was so good. Why did I stop doing them? Mm. The pandemic. I became a mom. It just was a lot of things. I think going back to that, and I wanna earn the right to make an, a strategic investment in maybe renting a studio or renting a producer or working along those.

[00:48:56] But until I do that, watch me just, like, kind of like slave away, Ed slay, on Instagram Live refining a skill set that I think sets me apart from other people. So what’s the big takeaway? Not that Jasmine knows how to talk. It’s what do you have in the palm of your hand? What skill set do you have? What makes you different?

[00:49:12] Let, different is better than best. And so whatever people have right now, to use that, position that in light of your offer. And so just getting super scrappy right now in all of those ways, because we are really hedging. It is a new arm of the business. I’m gunning for profitability- Mm-hmm … where traditionally a people person business is less profitable.

[00:49:31] And I’m like, “Well, how do we break the frame of that? What kind of restrictions do we have to have? Con- uh, constraints do we have to have?”

[00:49:35] Nathan: Constraints.

[00:49:35] Jasmine: Mm-hmm.

[00:49:36] Nathan: Yeah. Are there constr- like, are there constraints that you’ve put on it in order to maintain profitability?

[00:49:40] Jasmine: Oh, absolutely. Like, uh, if the DM funnel isn’t producing over a certain percentage, we’ll cut the spend.

[00:49:45] We gotta make- Mm … new inventory. If our closers are not closing at 35%, we’re gonna de-prioritize you. Like, if you aren’t showing up and setting your own calls and finding ways to win, you’re gonna be de-prioritized. It’s, it is, it is truly American. Like, you cut me open and an eagle flows out. This is, like, purely democratic.

[00:50:01] Results over feelings, 100%.

[00:50:04] Nathan: Yeah, and I love that you are all in on the content and everything else- Yeah … but watching the metrics all the way through. Oh, yeah. ‘Cause you’re building… Like, I, I can picture the engine that you’ve built for this business.

[00:50:14] Jasmine: Yeah.

[00:50:15] Nathan: It’s beautiful. Okay. Let’s dive in on the DM funnel-

[00:50:17] Jasmine: Okay

[00:50:17] Nathan: specifically.

[00:50:18] Jasmine: Okay. ‘

[00:50:18] Nathan: Cause I think that there’s a lot of people who have sold primarily through email or webinars- Yeah … and like that are like, “Wait, we gotta talk to people individually?”

[00:50:25] Jasmine: Mm-hmm.

[00:50:25] Nathan: But then they also experience the one-on-one. What are some of the mistakes that you made in the DM funnel early on that you’re like, “Okay, if I could go back,” and be like, “Hey, Jasmine.”

[00:50:33] Jasmine: Uh, well, the crazy thing is- … is I would be responding to DMs, and most people were thinking it was AI.

[00:50:39] Nathan: Mm.

[00:50:39] Jasmine: And I was like, “Oh, man.” Like, what… So I found that the thing that was gonna be really effective is just to send a voice memo. And so I realized that I talk faster than I type.

[00:50:48] Nathan: Yep.

[00:50:48] Jasmine: And- I

[00:50:49] Nathan: believe you.

[00:50:51] Jasmine: Most people listen to my podcast and they’re like, “I listen to other people’s podcasts at 1.5, but yours I’m listening at 0.75.”

[00:50:55] Nathan: I think this episode is the single highest value per minute- … it’s ever been on my show. You know

[00:51:00] Jasmine: I like to win, Nathan.

[00:51:02] Nathan: I know

[00:51:02] Jasmine: you do. Give me another thing to win at. Um, so one of the things that I realized was that if I’m sending a voice memo, that actually worked really well. And then I realized it’s, like the uglier I looked, AKA it’s like 6:47 in the morning and it’s kinda dark and my hair is messy from the gym and I’m wearing a big oversized sweater.

[00:51:15] Yeah. And I’m like, “Listen, Natasha, are you gonna let fear get in the way or are you gonna make a decision? Let me know.” Like, people are like, “Oh, my God.”

[00:51:24] Nathan: Right. ”

[00:51:24] Jasmine: She literally just showed up and did that.” And I think that we always think about like scaled conversion, which, hey, I am all for. I love that. But there’s also the power of seeing somebody and then getting them to trust so that if they get on a call, um, they’re fully bought in.

[00:51:41] It’s just a matter of like, let’s make it official. That’s different. And I like… And I’ll, I’ll do, I’ll do whatever it takes to get an outcome. And so, uh, I think you know that. Like, for those people who don’t know, I kind of stalked Nathan. He, uh, was recording a podcast in Los Angeles.

[00:51:57] Nathan: Yep.

[00:51:58] Jasmine: I got tickets to come to the podcast because I wanted to ask.

[00:52:01] I need, I wasn’t asking him a favor. Uh, not even a favor. I was gonna ask for like a pretty big thing. Like, I wanted to get specific things from Kit to facilitate a course I was having- Mm-hmm … for around funnels and course building and all that other stuff, and I knew that I just couldn’t get to you just by email or like DM.

[00:52:18] And so bought tickets to the podcast. My husband and I arrived early, sat front row or second row, and then we dispersed and you had an outdoor cocktail event on the rooftop. Yep. And so I realized that most of the people were using the logical way to exit from the back and up the staircase, but I noticed that you had left the stage, went behind the stage, and somehow ascended.

[00:52:40] And I was like, “If he went up, I don’t know.” I’m

[00:52:42] Nathan: going that way.

[00:52:43] Jasmine: So then everybody’s walking this way. I jump the stage, and then I follow Nathan up to the top. Yep. And I’m one of the first people, and I’m like, “Hi. I’m totally creepy, but I need to ask to see if, what Kit can do, uh, for- Yeah … this particular course,” and then look what happened.

[00:52:56] So all to say, I will do whatever it takes to, to work, and if that is an effective DM funnel that has me sending voice memos, like watch me send voice memos. I

[00:53:05] Nathan: love that. One quick thing on that story. So Haley, who runs all of our events, Creator Community at Kit, and, uh, she and I have worked together for like, I don’t know, eight years now.

[00:53:13] It’s a long time. Um, when she saw you in the audience, she’s like Jasmine Star’s here. And then I, I think, if I remember correctly, when you came up, she’s like, “Oh, you must be here to talk to Rachel.”

[00:53:25] Jasmine: Yes.

[00:53:25] Nathan: And ’cause you- Yes … and then you’re like, “No, to Nathan.” She’s

[00:53:28] Jasmine: just like- Okay, we have to fill the audience in.

[00:53:29] Hold on. The podcast you were hosting with Rachel Rodgers. Yes. And so Haley’s like, “Jasmine’s not here for Nathan.” No. No way.

[00:53:34] Nathan: Nathan doesn’t have that cool of fans. But- But I love the dedication to make things happen.

[00:53:41] Jasmine: Yeah.

[00:53:41] Nathan: Like, I’ll give an example of this. Must’ve been like 2015, 2016, I was trying to get, uh, Tim Ferriss as a customer for Kit.

[00:53:49] And, uh, my friend Ryan Delk was like, “Look, don’t try to reach him.” And we had a few friends in common. We’d talked on the phone once, like we had connections, but he’s like, “Tim is not the person who’s gonna switch his email list from GetResponse over to Kit. You have to figure out who his right-hand person is- Oh

[00:54:03] and then meet with them.” And so I figured out there was this guy, Adam, who lived in Colorado, and then I was like, “Oh, I gotta figure out a reason to be in Colorado.” And Ryan’s like, “That’s a reason.” That’s, you know? Yeah. And so I just emailed Adam and I was like, “Hey, I’m gonna, um- … you know, I’m gonna be in Boulder-

[00:54:17] on either this day or this day. I’ve set up meetings with either one. You know, are you in town either, either day?” And he’s like, “Yeah, this one would work.” And we ended up, he had his son with him. We ended up like going for a walk around the block. He had the stroller. Like, but we just connected-

[00:54:29] Jasmine: Mm-hmm …

[00:54:29] Nathan: and built it from there, and it was all about like show up in person, make these things happen.

[00:54:34] That’s right. And I think too often we’re trying to think, maybe it’s like back to the funnels, conversion rates, efficiency, like that brain takes over.

[00:54:43] Jasmine: Mm-hmm.

[00:54:43] Nathan: And you’re like, “Well-

[00:54:44] Jasmine: Mm-hmm …

[00:54:45] Nathan: I don’t actually know what opportunity will come from it.” Mm-hmm. And it’s like, look, if you landed- Two clients on Tim Ferriss’ level this year-

[00:54:53] Jasmine: Amazing

[00:54:54] Nathan: like, that would change- Game over … the business.

[00:54:55] Jasmine: Yep.

[00:54:56] Nathan: And so maybe you should be willing to get on a plane for it. Yeah. Maybe you should be will- you know, whatever, drive across town. What- whatever the action is to go above and beyond. Yeah. And it works so well. Like, as an example, Tim has been on Kit for the last eight years now, you know?

[00:55:12] And he’s one of our biggest customers, and-

[00:55:14] Jasmine: See, but here’s- … so much has happened … what you need to do now. You need to go and put, like, CIA agents around- Well- … in Boulder, protect h- his number two’s house because- … we don’t want nobody else setting up walks with

[00:55:26] Nathan: him. You know what I’m

[00:55:27] Jasmine: saying? That’s right. No, I’m just kidding.

[00:55:28] I’m just kidding. Uh, he now lives in- In- … Albuquerque That’s right. That’s

[00:55:29] Nathan: right. And you should go there. Um, okay, so I wanna make it really practical with the offers ’cause I’m still fascinated by- Okay … the outcome and, and shifting that. If we can go with an example, maybe using Kit as an example.

[00:55:43] Jasmine: Mm-hmm.

[00:55:44] Nathan: ‘Cause we do something that is very… I’m gonna get in trouble with my marketing team for saying this, but it’s generic, right? In the sense that we… Like, you can use Kit 100 different ways-

[00:55:54] Jasmine: Okay …

[00:55:54] Nathan: in 100 different industries and all of this. Like, whatever you’re trying to do, we probably have the software to accomplish it, so long as it’s generally audience related.

[00:56:03] Okay.

[00:56:04] Nathan: And so what I’m thinking about is if you were to design an offer in this style- Mm-hmm … for Kit or another company along those lines, like- Mm-hmm … how would you think about packaging that and saying like, “Okay, what’s the outcome we’re creating? What’s the timeline-

[00:56:17] Jasmine: Mm-hmm …

[00:56:17] Nathan: on from there?”

[00:56:17] Jasmine: So what does your, what does your dream client want?

[00:56:21] Nathan: Uh, they want to grow their email list.

[00:56:24] Jasmine: But really- In order to- … at 2 o’clock, at 2 o’clock in the morning they wake up and they’re like, “Ah, gotta grow that email list.”

[00:56:29] Nathan: No, they want income.

[00:56:30] Jasmine: That’s right.

[00:56:30] Nathan: Right. And so they- You know, pr- probably very similar to, to your dream client in the sense that they, you know, there’s some freedom number.

[00:56:37] If I could make- Mm … $1,000 a month on the side. If I could get to- Mm-hmm … you know, if we go more to the professional creator, someone who has traction, then they’re like- Mm-hmm … okay, how do I get to that 10K a month?

[00:56:47] Jasmine: Mm-hmm.

[00:56:47] Nathan: On from there.

[00:56:48] Jasmine: Mm-hmm. So first things first, I would set up as many calls… I like the, I like 100.

[00:56:54] I don’t know what that is. I just like it. You could set up 100 calls with people who you think are your dream demographic. Obviously, we all want the Tim Ferrisses of the world. Mm-hmm. But at the end of the day, who are not your whales but not your minnows, like, who are your dolphins? Mm. These are the people, like, they’re sticky enough, they’re not gonna, like, move away.

[00:57:09] They have just enough to keep, like, that, that amazing- Right … care that entrepreneurs always have. Yeah. Like, you wanna speak to the dolphins, 100 dolphins, and ask for what is, what is their magic number? If what you believe is they want money, but here again- Mm-hmm … that’s a hypothesis. First we need to ask.

[00:57:22] Right, we have to test it. Like, yes. So let’s just say you felt pretty, uh, certain with the hypothesis. Then you would have to understand, well, what is that number? Mm-hmm. And then w- how do they want to get that number?

[00:57:32] Nathan: Right.

[00:57:33] Jasmine: And so w- what we think is, like, we apply our, our service, our commoditized product- Mm-hmm

[00:57:38] and say, “This is how they want it,” but we’re not actually sure. But if we can find a way to help them reach their financial goals in a way that they want, and we could use our SaaS offering to do that- Right … well, then, then we have something cooking there. But I couldn’t necessarily go and, like, prescribe, like, “This is what people want.”

[00:57:53] But I can generally tell you that there’s three main drivers. People want more time. Mm-hmm. They want more money, influence/power.

[00:58:00] Nathan: Right.

[00:58:00] Jasmine: And so w- until you’re actually certain what those main drivers are for the dolphins, you might be surprised. It might be influence. Mm-hmm. There is, like, this insatiable thing right now that, like, mattering really matters.

[00:58:12] And it’s not a driver for me. Perhaps early in my career it was. Perhaps when I was in that dolphin status, like, I wanted to matter, and being able to matter. So how do we reverse engineer the offering that Kit has to actually help them matter? How do they get brand exposure? How do they get more light on what it is?

[00:58:27] Right. And so based on what it is they want of those three main kind of levers, what that magic number is. And so let’s just say it is influence. It’s like maybe they want 100,000 followers. Mm-hmm. Okay, and then on what specific platform? So how do we reverse engineer using what you provide to get them there?

[00:58:41] What are the strategies? What are the three steps that will help them convert their newsletter follower list into followers, but followers who actually engage? Because if they engage, then it incites other people to come in and do the very thing they want. So it’s like the whole strategy is, how do we get what you provide- Mm-hmm

[00:58:54] to get somebody into action so that person gets a result? The more definitive that result becomes in a specific amount of time, then people are like, “Heck yes.” And so that actually is power. Power is doing something that somebody told you to do, and you got the result that you wanted. Mm-hmm. Now you say, “Whatever you tell me-

[00:59:13] I’m gonna continue to do.”

[00:59:14] Nathan: Yes.

[00:59:15] Jasmine: And so as a provider, if somebody says, “I trust Kit. I went through this offering. I got this really, this result that I wanted. Tell me what’s next. How do I say more? How do I do more? How do I talk more?” I think it’s pretty fascinating what, uh, Alex Hormozi has done with school.

[00:59:30] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:59:31] Jasmine: There’s a lot of dominant power in a community because what they’ve done is they’ve just created a very formulaic, this is how you make your first dollar online.

[00:59:39] Nathan: Right.

[00:59:39] Jasmine: And then they give you the steps to $100, $1,000, and the aspirational model of $100,000. But what happens is they don’t start something like, “We’re here to give you a million dollars from an online community.”

[00:59:48] Not at all. What do they do? It’s levers of power built over trust and results. Fascinating. Mm. It’s psychology.

[00:59:55] Nathan: Yeah, I love that. I think there’s- So many things, like, w- as you’re talking, it makes me think about our ideal client is actually not the person who has o- 10 subscribers or 100 subscribers. It’s probably the person who has 10,000.

[01:00:10] And so if we were to make an offer and, and, you know, do those 100 calls, it would be about how do you get that person who has 10,000 subscribers on their email list to then, you know, figure out exactly what they want and then create that outcome. Yep. Yep. And so we would get more specific. And then we’d probably go, I g- I guess, you know, we’d slice it this way based on audience size, and then we’d slice it another way based on verticals and try to understand, yeah, what, what outcome we want to go

[01:00:34] Jasmine: for.

[01:00:34] It’s so funny. You approached, you approached it exactly like an engineer. I do. You literally, you literally went sideways. I did. Segmented. I was like, he literally just- … uh, drafted the exact methodology. You saw the spreadsheet- I did … play through in my head. I did. I did. I did. I did. I saw the roadmap actually happening- Yep

[01:00:48] unfolding in front of us.

[01:00:49] Nathan: Yep, that’s, that’s how it works. I wanna dive in on messaging. Okay. ‘Cause that’s something that you’re talking about in your offer, how getting everyone very, very clear on messaging. Mm-hmm. You’re helping all your, all your clients with this. Mm-hmm. Like, how do you approach that for your own offer, and, and what matters so much in reaching the right buyer?

[01:01:04] Jasmine: Okay, so there’s two ways that I would be discussing this. Because w- when you’re just beginning and getting a digital offer, I am not re- I, we gotta get the message right for a specific person. Okay. And then as you mature in business, you understand it. In order to go to cast your net wider, you’re gonna have to start speaking a little bit differently.

[01:01:18] Mm-hmm. And so, uh, I think of, in terms of three different groups of people when it comes to any strong offer. And there are people who are aware they have a problem and are actively looking for a solution. There are people who are aware they have a problem, but they’re not really looking for a solution because they’re not sure it exists or it’s outside of what they can imagine.

[01:01:37] And then there’s people who aren’t aware that they have a problem. So in all of that messaging, I’m not gonna be focused on the person who isn’t aware, because the amount of information that it would require for me to educate them on w- what they don’t know. So for instance, if I wanted to focus on the person who doesn’t know they have a problem, I would say, “You feel really stuck in your 9:00 to 5:00, and you hit a financial level.

[01:02:00] Like, there’s no way you can get past this.” And so I have to break their frame of reality, I have to sit outside of their universe of what they think is possible, cast a vision, and then get endless pieces of content building a new set of belief. Mm-hmm. Then once they actually believe, I have to convert them.

[01:02:17] That, to me, is not the game I want to play, but a lot of people are there. In fact, anybody, like in the big tech AI, like right now, for people who are in the game, we understand that AI is, i- is, is the future. Right. But the amount of people actually using it is so, so, so small, and what people are talking about is like the little people know, it’s like negative.

[01:02:33] Like, we don’t want that. Mm-hmm. So AI, early AI founders have to be in the game of, “We need to break your frame of reality. We need to teach you-” Right … “why it’s important and what’s possible.” We saw this happening with NFTs back in like 2020. Yep. They had to, “This is what an NFT is. It is a digital piece of landscape.”

[01:02:47] So that amount of push, no thank you. Okay. That’s not in the business that I wanna get into. So there is the person who’s aware of the problem and is looking for a solution, and so I am creating content with a message that is, you want to start a business and you’re not exactly how, because you’re a service provider.

[01:03:03] Or you wanna start a business, like you have people following you, and you know you have a lot to say and people trust you, but you’re actually not quite sure what the business should be. Okay. Then there’s messaging of, “I know I have a problem, but I am not aware of the solution.” That messaging changes ever so slightly of, there is a life that is different from what you see.

[01:03:21] And while you think it is impossible that you would be able to create 10 consistent 10K months- Mm-hmm … this is how you do it. And so that two types of messaging works really effectively. So when people put out their offer, we wanna know there are people who are looking for that. Right. You speak to them differently than the people who know, but they actually don’t believe that an offer or a solution exists.

[01:03:41] Nathan: How do you seg- Like, how do you segment someone into one of those buckets?

[01:03:44] Jasmine: Well, good for us, Meta and Andromeda. Like, that’s mostly… Like, I mostly speak to those platforms because I know that there is- Mm … really effective ways to do it on YouTube. I just haven’t dipped my toe. It is a, it’s a big beast, and I really, really wanna start focusing that, like, later in 2026.

[01:03:58] So right now, like, how do you eat an elephant? One bite at a time, and my first bite is gonna be with Meta. And so Andromeda is so unrivaled in serving up content. And so the words that you use, the caption that you write, um, any time that you add closed captioning, all of that is being read by the algorithm, and it’s serving it up to people who are kind of going into the, “Can I create a course?”

[01:04:18] Or, “What does digital marketing look like?” All of that stuff is being spoken to because that’s what we’re using in our copy for the ad itself.

[01:04:24] Nathan: Okay, if someone has never heard the word Andromeda before-

[01:04:26] Jasmine: Okay …

[01:04:27] Nathan: like, break that down.

[01:04:28] Jasmine: Um, in the most simplest form, and I know somebody who’s really in the game- Yeah

[01:04:31] is gonna be like, “You said it wrong.” That’s okay. Okay. An- Andromeda is the way that Meta is serving up their ads. Andromeda is the version of what is looking at what you’re creating as an ad. And this newest version is called Andromeda. And Andromeda, I like to think of her almost like a siren at sea.

[01:04:47] She’s hearing what it is you’re saying, and saying, “This person needs to hear it, and this person needs to hear it.” So the broader the messaging, “I hope you build a business,” it’s probably not gonna be served up because it’s just still so broad. The more specific you get with the message, and then the cleaner the transformation, what is it that somebody really wants?

[01:05:04] And, um, I would be cautious. I know what my people want, and what they want is financial freedom. But I can’t use that in an ad, because it triggers. Like, that’s just too broad. Yeah. And so what we’ve got is more honed-in messaging. What is it that you want? Financial freedom, yes, but is it 5K a month, 10K a month?

[01:05:20] There is a way to do that. And when you start mentioning those types of things and just, like, online resource creation, um, online offers, digital marketing, all of those words are being read and served up to people who have already previously consumed that style of content.

[01:05:33] Nathan: And so you’re making sure that, that that is going to a particular reel, and it’s in the, the captions and all the details for that reel, that you’re then serving as an ad.

[01:05:40] A

[01:05:40] Jasmine: reel, carousel, or a static image. Static images will still kill. That’s the crazy thing. Okay. Oh, yeah, still. One, one really strong photo is better than a mediocre reel.

[01:05:48] Nathan: Hm. Mm-hmm. Okay.

[01:05:49] Jasmine: Mm-hmm.

[01:05:50] Nathan: And so then you’re, you’re having those perform well as organic content and then running them as ads if they do well?

[01:05:54] Or how do you approach that? Uh,

[01:05:56] Jasmine: we’re testing it. So, um, sometimes we’ll put a piece of organic content, and I’m like, “That, that did surprisingly well.” Obviously, we’re gonna turn that into an ad. Yeah. We might change the caption a bit. But we are starting off with a, here again, messaging. Like, going to my organic audience, being like, “Do you want consistent 10K months?”

[01:06:10] It seems a little bit out of line maybe, because what I mostly speak about is, like, marketing- Yeah … branding, sales. So the ads are very specific and tailored to somebody who may or may not have that much familiarity with me.

[01:06:20] Nathan: Okay. And then from that content, is it… Like, how are you going from there to DMs?

[01:06:24] Is it usually a ManyChat, like comment a word, hand-raiser type of thing, or-

[01:06:28] Jasmine: Yeah, but I- …

[01:06:28] Nathan: reply to a

[01:06:29] Jasmine: story? I believe in, like, the human component- Yeah … because we ran split tests with ManyChat and, like, me, or me and my assistant. And, like, we’re talking about massive. Like, over 80% difference in people responding.

[01:06:40] And they always say speed to lead, which how fast can you respond really matters. And yes, it’s true, but not speed to lead at making somebody not trust you.

[01:06:49] Nathan: Right.

[01:06:50] Jasmine: And that’s what we notice. So I’m like, I would rather just sacrifice a little bit of the response time and then have that person… Like, sometimes people come back and be like, “Oh, there was a typo.”

[01:06:57] I’m like, “Great. Well, at least they know I’m real,” you know? Yeah. So I- it’s gonna be human, for sure.

[01:07:01] Nathan: And then when you’re responding in, with a, a voice memo or something else- Mm-hmm … are you batching that in some way, or you’re just- You’re just jumping in when you have time? How does, how does that look? So,

[01:07:11] Jasmine: okay, this is like, that’s a really good question.

[01:07:12] Okay, so the real real is there are people who are just so clearly qualified- Right … that when somebody comes in and, like, they have a large following, or they have a service-based business, or they’re, they, they have a digital offer and they’re like, “I’m, I’m just kinda struggling at that 3K mark or 5K mark”- Mm-hmm

[01:07:25] I’m going to be hand-holding and, and expediting with videos and, and voice memos. Right. Like, let’s just get you on the fast track. There’s other people that would require a little bit more work, so I might just… And you have, like, um, uh, in Instagram you have saved replies, or in Meta you have saved replies.

[01:07:38] Right. So I will just type in, like, three letters, and then I know that’s the response that I’m sending in. Yeah. So I don’t have to hand type everything. So the quick replies are a game-changer.

[01:07:45] Nathan: And what I’m realizing is you have different inboxes in Instagram.

[01:07:48] Jasmine: Yes.

[01:07:48] Nathan: And so you could have someone on your team very easily be like, “Hey, this is going into the inbox that you need to pay attention to.”

[01:07:55] Jasmine: That’s if I was way more organized. Like, I’m just being real. Like, you have your primary, you have your general, and then you have your requests. Right. And I know that, like, I probably should go through and indicate who’s primary- Mm-hmm … and who’s general. It’s just, I d- I don’t. And then when you run Meta ads, those, if you have a response, like comment the word this, it’s not ManyChat, but Meta has to run it.

[01:08:13] Right. And so if Meta’s running it, they’re dropping it into the primary account. So I’m like, “Ah,” like-

[01:08:17] Nathan: And they’re, they’re all in primary.

[01:08:18] Jasmine: Yes.

[01:08:19] Nathan: Yeah.

[01:08:19] Jasmine: Yeah.

[01:08:20] Nathan: Yeah. So. That makes

[01:08:20] Jasmine: sense. Mm-hmm.

[01:08:21] Nathan: Okay, final thing. I wanna dive into a specific offer, ’cause you and I have a friend in common in Franny Wilson- … from Ampersand Studios.

[01:08:27] We love her. We love her. She’s the best. I was at her studio yesterday. I had this interesting experience because I had her on my show- sometime last year. Mm-hmm. And I was interviewing her. I w- actually for my book, and I was like, “You know what would be fun? If I interview you for the book, and we just run it as an episode.”

[01:08:44] Jasmine: That’s good.

[01:08:44] Nathan: And so I was learning about, you know, her, like, the iterations through her service-based business, how she’s productized it over time. And at the exact same time, she’s planning her ready-to-post-

[01:08:54] Jasmine: Mm-hmm …

[01:08:54] Nathan: content, uh, subscription for small businesses basically. Mm-hmm. She l- she’s like, “Hey, we’ll come-” And

[01:08:58] Jasmine: she planned that while she was in my mastermind.

[01:09:00] Nathan: I know. Okay. So that’s the thing, where she’s like, “Okay, I’m going to go and show this.” She’s like, “Here’s this thing. I’m gonna show it to Jasmine-” Mm-hmm … “you know, tomorrow,” or something like that. “What do you think?” Back and forth. And so it was… Like, she showed me a bunch of the changes and edits that you made, and then I…

[01:09:14] Like, that took it from, like, “Oh, that’s a cool idea,” to, “I wanna buy it.” Mm-hmm. And I actually just hit the one-year mark. We just renewed for the next year.

[01:09:21] Jasmine: And your content’s amazing.

[01:09:23] Nathan: Thank you. So w- um, I’m curious, like, the things that you noticed, like that you tweaked in her offer or those types of things that you said, like, “Okay, here’s how it’s coming in,” versus

[01:09:33] Jasmine: what was meant.

[01:09:33] Okay, to the best of my memory, one of the things that stuck out was, like, how do we systematize?

[01:09:37] Nathan: Yeah.

[01:09:38] Jasmine: Because death by decision really ruins a client relationship. Mm-hmm. And when, um, you became… Like, you became the avatar, and I’m like, if, if working with Nathan is a dream, and she said it was, so I mean, I’m not being, I’m not being nice.

[01:09:49] I’m just being honest. She’s like, “How do we work more with, with the, the Nathan avatar?” Right. And I said, “Well, he is very successful. He’s very busy and makes so many decisions in a day that what you want is to have him look at something and clearly say, ‘I get it. I want it. Make it fast and give me the deliverables.'”

[01:10:05] Right. And so in the beginning, there was a lot of options. “Well, you could do this, or you could do that.” Yeah. “No, you could do this, and you could do…” And I’m like, “Oh, my God. If there’s more than, like, three here, it’s gonna be too much.” So we just went back down and said, “What do they really want?” Mm-hmm. “Where are you most profitable, and then how can you sh- systematize on the back end?”

[01:10:20] Because I think with, with the thing with art, it’s, it becomes hard to systematize because it’s a flair. And I’m like, “Babe, we’re running a business. N- we’re not a docent in a museum. So let’s make this so that it’s optimized for your profitability, for the ease of the client, and then make them have a long LTV.”

[01:10:34] And here you are a year later- Right … and that’s LTV. Like, that’s chef’s kiss. Like, that’s the dream.

[01:10:39] Nathan: Yeah, and so I saw the first version of it, and she wasn’t pitching it to me or anything like that. She was just like, “Hey, here’s the thing I’m working on. W- what do you think?” Which as a side note, is a great way to-

[01:10:48] Jasmine: Great.

[01:10:49] Nathan: Perfect … to

[01:10:50] Jasmine: pitch

[01:10:50] Nathan: something. Perfect. That’s how I always do it when I’m trying to hire someone. I’m like, “Hey, I, I have this role. Do you know anyone that might be a good fit?”

[01:10:56] Jasmine: How can I make this job description a

[01:10:58] Nathan: little better? Maybe, maybe you. Would you want… But with that, you’re right. It was a ton of options- Mm-hmm

[01:11:05] and a lot of decisions to make, and I… it seemed complex- Mm … both for her to fulfill- Uh-huh … and as a client. Uh-huh. It’s like I, I need, I don’t need any more complexity in my life. Yeah. And so then after she, you know, workshopped it with you in the mastermind and came back and said, like, “This” It was like, “Oh, so I can just click a buy button- Mm

[01:11:24] and then I get this outcome?”

[01:11:26] Jasmine: Mm-hmm.

[01:11:26] Nathan: Right? I have… You know, I need to give you 90 minutes to two hours of my time- Yep … every couple of months. Yeah. And then you’re going to drop a reel every single week that’s, like, authentic to me. Yeah. I don’t have to do it any- like- Yeah … sold. I’m in.

[01:11:39] Jasmine: Yeah.

[01:11:40] Nathan: And, you know, I’ve spent well over $10,000 now

[01:11:44] Jasmine: on that offer.

[01:11:44] Oh, amazing. Hey, because I tell her too, I was like, “I gotta get to Boise because I wanna buy this offer.”

[01:11:48] Nathan: Yeah.

[01:11:49] Jasmine: This offer is for the Nathans of the world, and if I can be like a Nathansita, like, you know- … the smaller, less successful Athena version, yeah, I’ll do it. I’ll do it.

[01:11:58] Nathan: Oh, that’s amazing. Well, thank you so much for coming on the show.

[01:12:00] Thank you.

[01:12:01] Jasmine: Thank

[01:12:01] Nathan: you. Where should people go, one, if they wanna check out the offer that you have? Yeah. ‘Cause then there might be people in, in the audience who are like, “Um, I’ll take that 90-day outcome.”

[01:12:08] Jasmine: Nice.

[01:12:08] Nathan: Uh, and then two, if they just wanna follow, you know, everything you’re doing and- And- … they, they want a podcast that they can listen to at 1X and still have to-

[01:12:16] hurry to take notes.

[01:12:17] Jasmine: Well, you can find me @jasminestar, uh, all social platforms, jasminestar.com. But to test out getting a voice message or a video from me, just DM me the word method- Oh … and then we’ll, we’ll get, we’ll get kicked off.

[01:12:28] Nathan: I

[01:12:29] Jasmine: like it. You’ll see it right there. Follow you on Instagram. Yeah. Jasmine Star.

[01:12:31] Jasmine Star.

[01:12:32] Nathan: DM the word method.

[01:12:32] Jasmine: Method. Yep.

[01:12:33] Nathan: Amazing. Thanks

[01:12:34] Jasmine: so much. Thanks, Nathan. Thank you.

[01:12:35] Nathan: If you enjoyed this episode, check out episode 71 with Tiffany Umann. Jasmine built consistent 10K months on the back of coaching, and Tiffany took that same model all the way to seven figures. Check it out if you wanna see how a coaching business can scale beyond the founder doing everything.

[01:12:51] Like the video if you enjoyed it. Hit subscribe on YouTube or wherever you’re listening, and

[01:12:56] I’ll see you next week.

[00:00:00] Ankur: The Teachable exit was about 250 million.

[00:00:02] Nathan: Ankur Nagpal built Teachable and sold it for $250 million. And then he built Carry and sold that for 76 million.

[00:00:09] Ankur: The only reason I was able to sell Carry is because we didn’t raise that much. A very large, very prestigious firm offered us $40 million.

[00:00:18] Nathan: Of funding.

[00:00:19] Ankur: And the worst part is we were tempted.

[00:00:20] Nathan: I built Kit, got a $200 million acquisition offer from Spotify, and turned it down. Ankur raised capital and sold companies. I bootstrapped mine and kept it.

[00:00:31] Ankur: Founders can sell their company and pay zero taxes on 10 to 15 million bucks. To me, it felt like black magic.

[00:00:37] Where it gets crazier now is the 10 to $15 million limit is per shareholder.

[00:00:42] Nathan: I feel like we should not g- keep that information, ’cause it’s

[00:00:45] Ankur: absolutely…

[00:00:45] Nathan: We talk about the bets we make on other people’s companies, and why product market fit is still critically important.

[00:00:51] Ankur: The thing that doesn’t materially become easier is how hard it is to find true product market fit.

[00:00:56] Everyone tells you really nice things, and you have to kind of filter out that .

[00:00:59] Nathan: We took opposite paths. I

[00:01:01] Ankur: think bootstrapping should be higher status. VC means you kind of failed to, like, run a business and grow with profits. The

[00:01:06] Nathan: question is, do either of us regret our decisions?

[00:01:09] Ankur: Nathan, I’ve been doing for 10 years straight, and I hate it, but it works

[00:01:16] Nathan: Ankur, thank you for coming.

[00:01:19] Ankur: Thank you for having me.

[00:01:19] Nathan: I feel like we grew up together in the software world, where as you were building Teachable, you were always, like, 20% ahead of Kit in revenue or somewhere in there. And so when I was like, “Wait, how do you get a better deal on Stripe fees as you pass 10 million ARR?”

[00:01:37] or something like that, you know, Ankur’s who I would turn to. And then we were also both building in the creator economy. We shared a lot of customers, and, um, yeah, learned a lot from each other and all that. But for anyone who doesn’t know, will you share just a little bit of the, the h- the arc of Teachable, um, over the years, and then we’ll dive into more of the conversation.

[00:01:55] Ankur: Absolutely. So, um, I started Teachable back in 2014. What year was ConvertKit?

[00:02:01] Nathan: Uh, 2013.

[00:02:02] Ankur: 2013. So very, very similar timelines. Um, it first started as a platform for literally my buddy and I, where we thought it would be really cool if we had a place where we could teach our own courses without having to go to a marketplace.

[00:02:15] That was the first version of Teachable. Then the creator economy effectively blew up over the next few years, and by the time we reached 2020, right before the pandemic, we were doing about, you know, 25 million in revenue. Our creators were selling hundreds of millions in courses every year. Um, at that point, we received a pretty nice acquisition offer that I took, and I think I spoke to Nathan around it, like, “Hey, we’re gonna do this.”

[00:02:39] And, um, and yeah, we ended up selling the business and then COVID hit. The business basically doubled from 25 to 50 million in revenue in the next three months. Um, but at that point, you know, I was fairly relieved to be out of that business. And, and yeah, I haven’t been super directly involved in the creator economy since, but I’ve gone on to start another business that I’m sure we’ll talk about.

[00:03:00] Nathan: Yeah, so I remember ta- you and I were talking along with another mutual friend, and they said like, “Oh, wow.” Like, you sold at the perfect time as the world was shutting down. And then it was that whole thing, it was like exit at the perfect time, you know, the stock market was down like crazy. And it was like, wait, did you sell at the worst time as it then went up like crazy?

[00:03:19] And ultimately, I mean, you hold meaningful equity in the, uh, in the parent company, so I think you did just fine.

[00:03:24] Ankur: Yeah, totally. And like my general philosophy is I feel like life has been so good to me. I don’t want to be that annoying rich person wishing that things could have gone slightly better. Like, things went pretty fucking well, so I’m fairly happy.

[00:03:39] Nathan: I, I think, I think that’s great. Um, how did you think about- That decision to exit versus keep going, uh, at that stage and, and, like, w- what tipped it over to saying yes?

[00:03:51] Ankur: The short answer is after building a business for almost six years, and I wanna hear your version of this, but I started feeling a bit tired.

[00:03:59] Like, it takes a lot to build a business. Like, you have to push unnaturally hard for many, many years. And we reached an inflection point where I looked at what we had, and I saw our technology, I saw our platform, and to make it dramatically better, like in my mind, if we had to, like, really give it a go, my assessment is we have to rebuild this whole thing from scratch.

[00:04:24] Meanwhile, the business was growing, and we weren’t actively looking to sell, sell the company, but when an offer came in from people who I thought were very smart, very good, very kind, all of which are important, um, it just, you know, found me at the perfect point of being kind of tired. It became basically a no-brainer.

[00:04:42] Curious for your perspective. How, how are you still building this company so many years into it?

[00:04:47] Nathan: Uh, I am, I am a little tired in this moment, but I think that’s because we’ve been building out this space till, like, midnight or 1:00 AM the last, like, four or five days. Part of the reason that I wanted to talk is that we have very different approaches, right?

[00:04:59] You know, despite building for similar amounts of time, I’m on company number one, you’ve exited company number two, you’re now running a fund, you’re now doing other things.

[00:05:09] Ankur: I, I think I’ve tried at least twice to see if you’re interested in selling, representing different parties. And not, not in recently, but back in the…

[00:05:15] And you’re always like, “I think I may do this forever.”

[00:05:18] Nathan: Yeah. And th- what I … The way that I’ve thought about it over time is build a business to sell it, so it has all of the things that investors really want, so recurring revenue, high gross margin, uh, a durable customer base that’s spread across a lot of different, um, users and all of that, and then don’t sell the business.

[00:05:39] ‘Cause turns out, uh, I believe that a business that is really good to sell is probably also really good to own and operate. Um-

[00:05:45] Ankur: There’s a, there’s a really great quote I love. It’s, like, “Build your business like you’re going to own it forever, otherwise you might just have to.” And I think that’s I think that’s, that’s sort of testament to how you’re thinking about it.

[00:06:00] Nathan: Yeah, and I, I’ve- I feel very lucky that the customer base that we have is one that I, like, am deeply in love with. Uh, this, this, uh, stage that we’re on is actually a bookcase. Uh, in true New York City fashion, it’s, um, used for all kinds of things. It folds down, uh, to turn into a stage for events and folds back up.

[00:06:20] Uh, but it’s our, our, um, New York Times bestselling authors who are on Kit, and there’s, I don’t know, 25 or 30 of them or something that we had showcased, uh, on here last night. And, you know, I just feel really, really lucky that we get to serve those customers. So I plan to run this business for a very long time.

[00:06:37] Uh, I always tell the team 10, 10 years, and they’re like: “Wait, didn’t you say 10 years, like, five years ago?” And I was like: “Oh, no, it’s a rolling 10 years.” But I think the, the biggest thing that’s made that difference is having both a business model that endures, like recurring revenue is amazing, um, but then also having a customer base that we really care about.

[00:06:57] And, like, I would spend all of my time with creators and, and love every minute of it. Um, so yeah, my… I- I fully expect to be… We’ll do some event and you’ll be like: “Oh, yeah, I sold company number six.” And I’ll be like: “I, I still have company number one.” I don’t know if you have any thoughts or commentary as, as we’ve, uh- You know, had these conversations over the years, but-

[00:07:16] Ankur: No, I mean, look, I, I respect and admire that.

[00:07:20] Like, I think, I think there are some people who sort of build one business and see it as their life’s work, and I think that’s incredibly admirable. Every time I’ve started a company, the idea has always been build it, you know, without, without aiming to sell. Like, I think if you start a company with the goal that you’re going to sell it…

[00:07:39] And sometimes I get concerned. Like, I’ll go speak to a group of founders, and everyone who hasn’t even started their company wants to know about the exit. Like,

[00:07:45] Nathan: what’s- What are the multiples? How do you feel about the market in this? It’s like you haven’t provided- Yeah … any value to anyone. Companies are just, it’s just a value exchange, and spend all of your time on how do you create value and not, you know, what could my possible exit be?

[00:07:58] Ankur: Totally, totally. But at, at every point I’ve- I have an open mind where I’m building the business. And I think as a founder you’re always willing to sort of hear what your business may be worth. And at any given point there’s, like, some kind of expected value math in your head, um, not just on what is the financially best outcome, but what is the best outcome for every single stakeholder, which means every single investor, every single employee, past and present, every single customer.

[00:08:28] And then your job as the founder is to try to find the equilibrium point across all of that.

[00:08:34] Nathan: That makes sense. Okay, let’s talk about Carry. So you just sold Carry, is it a month ago? Yeah. It’s quite

[00:08:39] Ankur: recent. Uh, well, the deal was signed about two months ago, and will hopefully close in two days, so.

[00:08:45] Nathan: Okay. And then actually, I think you can say some of the numbers on there of the, uh, the Teachable exit was around 200 million?

[00:08:53] Ankur: The Teachable exit was about, we were doing about 25 million in revenue, and it was a 10X, so about 250 million.

[00:08:59] Nathan: Okay.

[00:08:59] Ankur: The Carry business we were at about 4 million in annualized revenue, and, uh, all in the exit was about 75, $76

[00:09:09] Nathan: million. Okay. And then, um, that’s a fantastic multiple.

[00:09:12] Ankur: It is a fantastic multiple, but again, I think different types of acquirers pay for different things, and we’ll get into that.

[00:09:18] But with the Carry business it was, you know, acquired for different reasons than sort of- Right … pure multiple on revenue.

[00:09:24] Nathan: Yeah, um, so, you know, what is Carry as a business, and, um, like where were you planning to take it?

[00:09:30] Ankur: So the, the vision behind Carry has always been that while I sold Teachable, um… As a little bit of background, I’m a first-generation immigrant here.

[00:09:40] I did not grow up in America. I moved here for college. I know nothing about the US financial system. And while selling Teachable I, you know, talked to lawyers and accountants before structuring the sale, and it blew my mind to learn about the sort of- Well, I mean, to me it felt like black magic in the US tax code, uh, where by talking to the right accountant, I was able to save many, many millions of dollars by learning about things like the QSBS tax break and all of these different things.

[00:10:09] Um, the vision behind Carry always was there’s so much cool stuff in the tax code. There’s no good way to productize it to the average person. Um, so Carry was a platform to do that for business owners. The first and primary product we had was a one-person 401. So for anyone who’s self-employed, typically your employer provides your 401, which again is a quirk or nuance of the US tax system.

[00:10:33] But if you’re self-employed, no one does that, and that was our primary product.

[00:10:36] Nathan: That was my experience as well, where as you learn these tax things over time, you talk to your, uh, CPA that you hire and you’re like, “Anything else I should do?” And they’re like, “Yeah, no, you’ve, you’ve pretty much covered it.”

[00:10:44] They’re like, “You’ve… You’re dialed in.” And you’re like, and then you go talk to a founder friend and you learn about QSBS or QSBS stacking or some of these other things, and Then you go back to your accountant and like, “What about this?” And like, “Oh yeah, no, you could totally do that.” And you’re like, “What?

[00:10:58] You have one job, and you did not do that job.” For any- Do you wanna give a, a quick explanation of QSBS for, uh- Yeah … ’cause I feel like we should not get- Yeah … keep that information ’cause it’s,

[00:11:08] Ankur: it’s- Absolutely. It’s quite- So QSBS is something, uh, that blew my mind, and I only found out about it about, uh, two months before selling my first business.

[00:11:16] But the way QSBS works is if you are a startup founder, which is typically the founder of a C corp. So as a creator, most creators aren’t set up to be a C corp. Um, you probably shouldn’t, since there’s downsides of being a C corp, like double taxation, but if you are raising venture money or you want to go public someday, you likely are going to be a C corp.

[00:11:36] I’m guessing you started as an LLC and then converted? Yep,

[00:11:38] Nathan: and then we converted.

[00:11:39] Ankur: Yep, exactly. So the way this works is if you hold shares in, in this C corp for five years and you sell your business, you pay no taxes on up to $10 million. Uh, last year there’s a new rule change that changes it to $15 million.

[00:11:53] Um, so that means founders can sell their company and pay zero taxes on 10 to 15 million bucks, which is, one, super crazy. Where it gets crazier now is the 10 to $15 million limit is per shareholder, so you can actually multiply it. I can give shares to my family members, to my mom, to my dad, like people can do it to their kids.

[00:12:14] Now as a family, you multiply that from 15 to 30, 45, $60 million. Um, it’s actually remarkable because people think of how high taxes are in America, and there’s tax breaks like this for business owners that a lot of people don’t know about.

[00:12:29] Nathan: And there’s even layers beyond this of like if you convert from an LLC to a C corp later, it’s 10 times the basis and, and there’s all kinds of other rules within that.

[00:12:37] But it, it just points to how important a business like Carry is because it’s explaining these things and making it accessible when really you, otherwise you, you have to be an insider or someone has to tell you, you know, like other founders or something like that, to then know that this exists to be able to, to implement it.

[00:12:54] Okay. So with Carry, what were the, what were the things that Carry was acquired for, uh, versus what Teachable was acquired for?

[00:13:01] Ankur: Yeah, absolutely. So with Carry, we were at about 4 million in ARR about three and a half years in, and our path was decent. Like it, you know, it was… The way I think about it is it’s probably similar to a lot of the early Teachable and ConvertKit growth where we were doubling year on year, which is, you know, 100% year on year growth.

[00:13:23] But given everything happening in the world today, it wasn’t a growth rate that was satisfactory to me. I wanted us to be growing faster. Um, what I felt is we found product market fit in this, like, pretty small niche, and this would keep growing, it would keep compounding, but the path to hitting 100 million in revenue was still, like, 10 years out or some amount of time where I felt like the time it would take to build a massive business from this, um, was too long for my amount of patience.

[00:13:54] Um, as this was happening, I was being recruited by AngelList to run their new public venture fund, USVC, which to me sounded like the coolest opportunity in the world. Um, it’s a fully public venture fund where I could tap into all the content and marketing I had been doing while, you know, running a portfolio, opening up access to private markets for, like, every person.

[00:14:16] It also had some form of regulatory arbitrage, or not arbitrage, regul- regulatory work that has gone into it because Prior to this type of structure, only accredited investors could invest in startups. So this seemed like a very good opportunity. Um, however, every time we had a conversation, I, I told the AngelList team that I had certain obligations to all the stakeholders I mentioned, to my team, to my cap table, to myself, to actually find a good outcome for the Carry business.

[00:14:49] Um, and after a lot of negotiation, this whole thing was structured as a acquisition that was at least in part to have me come on and run this venture fund moving forward. And as a result, the multiple is, you know, far more generous than someone buying it for revenue.

[00:15:05] Nathan: Yeah, that makes sense. Uh, that, and I was very curious about to what extent the technology was acquired, the, um, you know, some of the…

[00:15:12] If AngelList wa- wants to run that across a much bigger portfolio, or if it was really about the team or whatever else.

[00:15:17] Ankur: So, so here’s where it gets a little crazy. So AngelList said they wanna buy us. After a lot of negotiation, we got up to 70 million across cash, equity, earn out, a lot of that. But then it turns out they didn’t actually care about the entire platform underneath.

[00:15:34] So I basically negotiated for the ability to take the underlying platform and sell that to a second buyer. So we took that, and then we found a second buyer for the Solo 401k platform. Um, but all of that, right, that 4 million bucks in revenue only was able to get 6 million in a sort of very simple all cash asset deal.

[00:15:56] So that kinda shows you, like, multiples and how bad they can be when you have to sell a business versus when someone is coming to you to buy a business. It’s a completely different game.

[00:16:06] Nathan: Yeah. Okay, so talk about that, ’cause that’s an important distinction of, uh, businesses being bought versus being sold.

[00:16:11] Ankur: So the core Carry business, which was being bought in a way that it was opportunistic, we were able to sell for $70 million. Then what’s left, which is, you know, the u- underlying asset that was generating 4 million a year that we had to sell. You know, I had to get rid of this thing, and I wanted to find a good partner.

[00:16:29] We were only able to sell that for 6 million. So you see the difference, right? 70 million for basically talent and, like, the promise for what could be, and 6 million for the actual asset.

[00:16:40] Nathan: Yeah, that’s a huge difference. Okay, let’s talk about another difference in how you and I operate, um, r- in fundraising versus, uh, staying bootstrapped.

[00:16:50] And we actually, we’ve done some secondary transactions, and so we can get into the, the pros and cons of that. But yeah, how do you think about raising? ‘Cause you raised for Carry. You, you could have self-funded that from there. What was the reason that, uh, you raised money for Carry specifically instead of purely self-funding?

[00:17:06] Ankur: There were a couple of reasons. Um, one big one is fintech is fairly expensive. Like, as, as we would’ve kept building it out, there was a high cost of compliance. Could I have funded it fully from my balance sheet? Probably, but it would start getting a bit irrational- Right … where I now have, you know, a lot of my money in this company when I already believe my time is my most valuable asset, and I’m investing that in the business.

[00:17:32] Um, so that’s why I did raise venture funding. However, that’s also relevant because when you raise venture funding, you have… You effectively sign in, in my mind, an implicit promise that you’re going to, like, go for broke. You’re going to try and grow really, really fast. You’re not gonna pay yourself a lot of money.

[00:17:53] You’re not gonna be wildly profitable and kind of chill. You’re going to live a pretty hard life for the goal of trying to make this worth billions of dollars. Um, and I think that decision is related to why I felt like we weren’t growing fast enough. Had this been a business that I fully owned, 100% growth is fine.

[00:18:12] You know? I can take my time. But because we raised venture capital and I signed that implicit promise, I had to free myself, or at least felt like I had to free myself of that implicit promise in order to, like, you know, be able to do what I wanna do.

[00:18:25] Nathan: Yeah, and I think that’s… You have a lot of flexibility when you either stay self-funded or you set the expectations of, like, this is the style of business that, that you’re building.

[00:18:36] Totally.

[00:18:36] Ankur: Totally, and I, I always tell founders, ’cause sometimes founders don’t realize that’s what they’re doing when they’re raising venture capital, because VC for whatever reason is seen as higher status. I think it shouldn’t be. I think bootstrapping should be higher status. I think VC means you kind of failed to, like, run a business and grow with profits.

[00:18:54] But because of VC seen as higher status, you s- now see so many people, um, who don’t know better raising venture capital, and then getting, you know, sort of trapped where they have businesses doing millions of dollars a year, but maybe it’s growing 50 to 70% being profitable. A really good business, but a lot of great founders feel super trapped because of the way they’ve raised money for it.

[00:19:17] Nathan: Every time in decision-making that I’ve felt unsure of when I’m trying to decide between A and B, well, I have some family members who, uh, optimize for what’s the best story. Like, what’s the most entertaining outcome?

[00:19:27] Ankur: Do it for the lore.

[00:19:28] Nathan: Do it for the lore. That’s one way to do it. Um, something that I’ve always thought of is what preserves optionality.

[00:19:34] Like, people think like, oh, you decided to raise funding or you decided to stay bootstrapped, and that was a moment in time decision. It’s like, well, no, actually, you can, you can cross… It’s very easy to w- relatively between the market and a bunch of us to go from bootstrapped to venture-backed, assuming you have traction and all of that.

[00:19:53] And so at any point, you know, if you stay bootstrapped, you’re, you’re preserving this optionality. Now, if you then don’t If you’re not able to grow, then you lose that optionality pretty quickly ’cause no one wants to fund a, a flat business. But then once you go to the, to the other side and you raise funding, it’s very hard to go back.

[00:20:08] Now, there are companies, uh, you think about Zapier, um, you know, people… They’re a venture-backed business. I think they raised a couple million to get to a few hundred million in revenue . So it’s like-

[00:20:20] Ankur: And then they raised a few hundred million.

[00:20:21] Nathan: And then they raised a few hundred million. Yeah.

[00:20:23] Ankur: E- even Hotmart was very similar.

[00:20:25] They raised 400K, and then 10 years later they raised 100 million. Yeah. Like it’s… I, I will say if you are raising money too, within the spectrum of raising money, how much you raise is very important. The only reason I was able to sell Carry in this kind of deal and everyone still did somewhat well is because we didn’t raise that much, and it almost was in that way.

[00:20:47] There was a time when we were doing about 300K in ARR, a very large, very prestigious firm offered us $40 million Ah, we were looking to raise, like, five.

[00:20:58] Nathan: Right.

[00:20:58] Ankur: And the worst part is we were tempted. We thought about it pretty hard. And just to be

[00:21:01] Nathan: clear, that, that was $40 million, uh- Of

[00:21:03] Ankur: funding …

[00:21:03] Nathan: of funding

[00:21:04] Ankur: at- They wanted a third of the company.

[00:21:06] They wanted to… It was a big, big growth fund. They wanted to deploy a lot of capital.

[00:21:09] Nathan: Right.

[00:21:10] Ankur: And we were tempted. I thought about it. I talked to the team. The team honestly was more for it, but I ultimately decided against it for two reasons. One is it makes an entire spectrum of, like, okay outcomes bad.

[00:21:25] Like, I wouldn’t… Like, this deal would not have happened. And two, I just didn’t trust we wouldn’t do dumb shit with it. Like, we probably would’ve, you know, made stupid decisions. Right. Um, but that makes a big difference because, again, we sold this business at 76. The reason 76 was psychologically important, you may be like, “Why aren’t you saying 75?”

[00:21:43] It’s because 75 was the valuation of our last round, so we wanted to at least nominally clear it for it to feel like a sm- at least a small win, even if nominal for everyone involved.

[00:21:54] Nathan: Right. Yeah, that makes sense. And especially in, in a lot of these, um, a lot of these different markets, this happened a lot in 2021, where people raised amounts of funding that limited their options in a huge way, and, and the, the idea was that more funding is always better, and it’s just, it’s not the case.

[00:22:14] So I have a huge amount of respect when I see founders who you know in a hot market can, can raise a ton of money, and then you see them do these very strategic rounds where they’re like, “Oh, I actually only need $2 million or $6 million to get to the next stage.”

[00:22:28] Ankur: Yep. A lot of people don’t know that almost every time you raise venture capital, you have to pay it off before anyone sees a dollar.

[00:22:36] So there’s a lot of companies now that have raised $200, $300 million. If they sell for less than that, like, unless the deal is restructured, no one makes anything. Investors always get their money back- Yeah … before anyone sees anything. Yeah. So large rounds can really, really change, uh, the math when you exit your business.

[00:22:54] Nathan: Yeah. Okay, so since you’ve built two businesses, you have the advantage of, uh, being able to start from scratch on round two. What are some of the biggest things that you did differently in round two versus round one of building the company?

[00:23:06] Ankur: It’s funny, ’cause round one overall went better, so I don’t know how, how useful, useful the lessons are.

[00:23:12] Um, but round… With round two, we were able to Hire good people much faster. A lot of the things that first-time founders really struggle with or spend a lot of time on become very easy as a second-time founder. Like fundraising is very easy, hiring people is very easy. Um, all these things become much easier.

[00:23:35] The thing that doesn’t materially become easier is how hard it is to find true product market fit. If anything, it’s… You almost have to filter out the bullshit because if people think you’re a founder that’s been successful before, they will be nicer to you than they otherwise would. So everyone tells you really nice things, and you have to kind of filter out that bullshit.

[00:23:55] Um, yeah, there’s a really nice, good quote I liked where I’m like The best way to play being a second-time founder is if you can use the hype to your advantage without believing it yourself. Um, because you will be more hyped up, yet the hard things continue to remain the hard things.

[00:24:13] Nathan: Yeah, and you feel like you should be making progress faster because you’ve learned all these other skills, and, and maybe you will.

[00:24:19] Like, fundraising might go faster, um, the first few customers and all that. But product market fit might not go faster at all, and it might even take longer if people are lying to you, like, “Oh, Ankur, like, great idea. I cannot wait to do this.” And you’re like, “Great. Will you pay for it?” They’re like, “Well, I don’t know.”

[00:24:34] Ankur: And, and I… And at some level, you, you and other people put more pressure on you. Like, everyone who joined the team joined the team because they’re like, “Okay, this guy succeeded with his last company. This is my, like, ticket to success as well.” And yeah, and then the first time, everyone almost expects you to fail.

[00:24:55] The second time, you’re expected to succeed in a way that you’re like, okay, like, you know, I’ve been on panels talking about building a successful company. It’s kind of embarrassing if this goes poorly after telling other people what they should be doing. So yeah, there are, you know, pros and cons.

[00:25:08] Nathan: Yeah, is there anything now as you look back over two companies and two exits where you’re like, okay, if I were doing round three, uh, and it was a, it was a company rather than a fund, uh, that you’d focus on or that you would do differently?

[00:25:20] Ankur: So I generally believe in order to get good at something, you need so many repetitions, and like an N of two, N of three is still not that many where you generalize. But one of the things I think I would think long and hard on is, again, like, how you fund the business affects so much of the strategy. So pretty early on, make a very clear line of like how big do I want this business to make and accordingly fund it.

[00:25:50] Like, with Carry, it was sort of in between, um, versus like, okay, if you have something that is and can truly, truly be venture scale, go and actually build that or fully retain optionality.

[00:26:02] Nathan: Okay. That makes sense. I wanna go to questions from all of you who have joined us in just a second. Um, but before we do that, I’m…

[00:26:09] So think about the question that you wanna ask. Uh, Daniel on our team is gonna have, uh, a mic to pass around. As you think about going into running a fund from here, like that’s a… You’ve done a lot of angel investing, so you’re familiar with that side. But what are the, like, the biggest skills you think you have to learn, you know, the, um, and ways you need to level up individually to, like, tackle this next stage?

[00:26:30] Ankur: So in between Teachable and Carry, I ran couple of venture funds, so I have a lit- little bit of experience there. What drew me to this role at USVC is It’s running a fund, but we’re kind of building the whole thing, ’cause it’s a public venture fund. It’s a very different type of product. Like, there’s a whole product aspect to it as well.

[00:26:51] Um, the challenges with it are it’s, you know, it’s a very, very hot time to invest in private companies, and-

[00:26:59] Nathan: Okay, let’s talk about that for a second. Um, I think that HubSpot at this moment has, like, a three times ARR multiple, maybe, maybe less.

[00:27:07] Ankur: Uh- That SpaceX is going public at 2 trillion with, like- … tens of billions in revenue.

[00:27:12] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:27:12] Ankur: Um-

[00:27:13] Nathan: Shopify put up, like, an insane Q1, and the whole market’s like, “Eh, I don’t know. We don’t care.”

[00:27:18] Ankur: Yeah. It’s, it’s definitely… Running a, you know, running a public venture fund now, these are things that are quite important and quite significant to us. But the way we’re doing this is we’re not simply making this a vehicle to index the later stage names.

[00:27:32] Like, there’s… Like, if you pay attention to private markets, there’s so much capital now in OpenAI, Anthropic, SpaceX. We’re taking a longer term strategy where because we provide liquidity every quarter, we will have some exposure there, but also investing in the early stage fund managers and, and things that will pay off, you know, one, three, five, seven years in the future.

[00:27:54] Um, the general thesis we have is- Every single year, more new companies will be started that will be more valuable than all the companies started before. And building our fund with a, with a way that, you know, if you believe that thesis, this is a vehicle to bet on that.

[00:28:10] Nathan: Yeah, that makes sense. Okay, was there anything that you’re like, “Ooh, I’m gonna have to figure out this part in particular,” or it’s gonna be, be difficult to

[00:28:17] Ankur: implement?

[00:28:17] The, uh, the part that, the part that we’re still figuring out is it’s … There’s a lot of ways I can get myself, get myself into trouble from a regulatory perspective that I’m discovering, since this is now a public security. Right. And yeah, I, I’m gonna try my best not accidentally go to jail. I think that’s probably a good, good priority.

[00:28:34] Audience member: That seems like a good goal. Yeah.

[00:28:36] Nathan: All right, who has a question they wanna kick us off

[00:28:38] Audience member: with? Thanks, guys. That was awesome. Um, Ankur, this is for you. So you mentioned it was way easier on your second company to recruit people, to hire great people. I think that’s the core to any business, is the team. What was most effective in pitching them to come over?

[00:28:53] Because it’s a combination of vision, incentives, you as their boss. Like, what, what did you find was kind of most effective to attract great talent?

[00:29:01] Ankur: I think there’s two dimensions that helped a lot. One was top of funnel. Um, having an audience was very, very helpful. I was able, I don’t know, I tweeted I’m starting a new company, and there were, you know, almost a million impressions on that.

[00:29:14] You know, tons and tons of DMs. And so top of funnel became substantially easier. I went to a bunch of people and I, you know, told them, “Who’s the best person you know for this?” And then when it came down to closing them as well, the strategy we picked is like early on, pick a strong founding team, um, and be f- very generous with equity to the first, like, five or seven people, um, in a way that I didn’t, did not when I started the company.

[00:29:40] I did not have a co-founder that had an equal amount of equity as I did. As a result, I could be very generous with the first five people. Um, so the combination of both those things made early hiring, you know, substantially easier than the first time around. Um, and even then, every time we did have a role, hiring only got hard when we needed, like, specialists when we were further along.

[00:30:02] Like a head of engineering is still hard when you’re, you know, two, three, four years in, but the entire founding team hiring was, was quite easy.

[00:30:08] Nathan: Recruiting is so, so important. A couple things that worked well for us, um, being a distributed team made it easier, and I know there’s so many benefits to being in person in one office.

[00:30:19] We’ve talked about that as a c- as a Kit team. Like, oh, if the Kit exec team was all in one room, you know? And it’s like, okay, well, who’s moving? ‘Cause we’re in New York and Charleston and Boise and like, um, you know, all over. So but being a remote team, you can pull from, uh, so many places. Exactly as you said, like having a personal brand or a reputation, um, is so important.

[00:30:40] It, it helps so much. Like if that’s going to be- We can debate how useful it is at a small scale for acquiring customers, but it’s very useful for acquiring talent. Even if it just gives people an opportunity to say like, “Oh, um, who is this person that I’m about to interview with?” Or, “I’m thinking about taking this job.

[00:30:57] Let me go scroll through their LinkedIn posts and all of that, and see the content and get a feel for who they are, and who they’ve been over the last, like, three to five years.” This is someone who’s shown up consistently online for a while. Another thing that, that really helps is in direct outreach, the thing that I do, is I go to everyone that I would want to work on my team and I say, “Hey, here’s the, here’s the job that I put together.

[00:31:18] I wrote it up. Um, do you know anyone who would be a great fit for this?” ‘Cause there’s some people where, like, they’re doing such important or prestigious work or whatever that you don’t… You know, and your company is so small that, uh, you’re kinda awkward about like, “Do you want this job?” And they’re like, “No, it pays a quarter of what…”

[00:31:36] You know, like, that there’s an interaction there that could be awkward. But if you say, “Hey, I think of you as a legend in this space. You must know other people like you. Who, um, who would be a great fit for this?” And they’ll often say, like, “Oh, let me think about it.” And then some, you know… So say 70% says, “I’ll think about it and let you know.”

[00:31:52] 20% or 30 or, you know, 28% say, uh, “Oh yeah, here’s someone that would be a good fit.” And then a small fraction go Actually, I’d be interested in that. And it’s such a great lead-in to the conversation without any of that, uh, that awkwardness.

[00:32:07] Ankur: A great way of doing this also is to appeal to people’s ego, right?

[00:32:10] Just post who’s the best person you know at growing a YouTube channel, and now you’ll start seeing people nominate themselves- They can nominate themselves. … other people nominate. Yeah. And then now you have a list of prospects that you can go reach out to.

[00:32:21] Nathan: Yeah, it would be crowdsour- crowdsourcing and playing to ego is a good one.

[00:32:24] Yeah.

[00:32:24] Audience member: I’m curious to hear for, from both of you on this question. What are some contrarian beliefs or, like, hot takes that you hold that helped you get to where you are?

[00:32:34] Nathan: I’ll go with one. Um, I pay people the same amount globally, uh, independent of where they live or their local cost of living. And so we have team members who we’ve hired in Poland and other places who have shaped the entire company and are thrilled because they make…

[00:32:54] Like w- someone told me that when he, when he joined Kit, he tripled his salary, and he makes even more than that now. And he has shaped our entire product in a massive way. And so we have a globally distributed team. We hire from everywhere, and we don’t get any of the economic advantages of doing that. Um-

[00:33:11] Ankur: That sounds like it’ll be hard to recruit people from New York and San Francisco then.

[00:33:14] Nathan: Um, I mean, I have… What do I have? 11 people in New York.

[00:33:18] Ankur: Okay.

[00:33:18] Nathan: Um, and a decent number. We, we pay-

[00:33:20] Ankur: So yeah, you basically- We pay quite a- … pay New York salaries to everyone.

[00:33:23] Nathan: Yeah. And, and it is hard, right? Yeah. Um, to some extent, but we have, uh, we have team members who go above and beyond in a massive way because the- they’re so thrilled to be a part of the team.

[00:33:35] Um, I would- wouldn’t necessarily recommend it for everyone. It’s just a personal philosophy that I have. It’s a contrarian take, and, uh, it’s paid off very well for me. What’s one of yours?

[00:33:43] Ankur: Don’t talk to or listen to your friends when starting a company. Um, I find friend feedback to be anywhere from useless to actively damaging They’re going to be nice to you.

[00:33:56] They typically don’t really have an understanding of, of how hard things are. They’ll say all the positive things. I also think when you’re starting something, like, just doing shit is a better way of going about it. Um, build something, send a link, see if someone buys. That kind of activity is much better at testing an idea.

[00:34:14] What I’ve seen a lot of people doing is they’ll go grab coffee. They’ll, they’ll sit down with 5 people, 10 people, 20 people, and this is bad because, one, you don’t get useful feedback. Two, it feels like work. Because it feels like work, you’ll do more and more of it, and you’ll be like, “Wow, I’ve spent a month kind of working on my idea,” but you actually haven’t done much.

[00:34:32] So I tend to think it’s better to just work on things, try things, and see what happens.

[00:34:37] Nathan: Yeah, it’s, uh, it’s performative, uh, work, and it’s just performative to yourself. It’s, it’s really not, not helpful. Uh, we’ll go to another question and I’ll think of more hot takes ’cause this could be a good segment that we do.

[00:34:47] We’ll go here and then, uh, up to the front after that.

[00:34:49] Audience member: Great talk, guys. Well done. Um, I was gonna ask, what are you seeing working well for some GTM strategies? So what are you seeing that’s probably not working anymore over the last 10 years? What’s working now?

[00:34:59] Nathan: Okay, you g- got me onto a hot take. My least favorite startup and business advice is, especially, and this is the worst because it sounds smart and it’s not.

[00:35:09] What got you here won’t get you there. And people say that because they, they do these things. They’re like, “Okay, when we got our first 10 customers, now we need to do something different,” and, and on from there. Um, ’cause the, the… this advice is both true and false simultaneously. Like, it’s true 50% of the time and it’s wrong 50% of the time, which means it’s useless ’cause you don’t know which half.

[00:35:29] So something that works really well still, I believe, in go to market is direct sales And that’s something, you know, that’s basically how Kay got our first, uh, 20,000 ARR for sure. The, uh, uh, sorry, 20,000 MRR that then scaled into 100,000 and beyond, and then we stopped doing it because, like, oh, no, we’re a grown-up company and we do scalable important things.

[00:35:52] And we should’ve kept doing that all the way along because turns out direct sales gets easier. You have brand reputation. You can name-drop your customers. The, the trust comes. You know, like, you can build network effects. You can systematize your outreach and your closing funnels and y- you know, all of this stuff.

[00:36:06] Ankur: Are you still doing webinars, Nathan? I’ve been doing webinars for 10 years straight, and I fucking hate it. But it works.

[00:36:12] Nathan: Um, I am no longer teaching the webinars. Uh, but yeah, we’re, we do, you know, two to four a week. Um, so that was another one for us that we stopped doing webinars because we’re like, oh, we’re onto the next thing.

[00:36:22] Like, uh, grown-up companies should, you know, do paid acq- acquisition funnels or, you know, that sort of thing. Often what got you here done better is gonna be the thing to get you there. And now my approach is very much around what’s the flywheel that I can build where I can do the same thing over and over again, systematize it, and make it 1% better in each iteration, um, and, and go from there.

[00:36:44] So as far as what I’m seeing work really well in go-to-market, direct sales still works. You know, go recruit top customers. Your sights move higher up. You know, years ago I was reaching out to, um, individual creators or Pat Flynn or, you know, people on that scale, and now our direct outreach is turning into people like Tom Brady and Emma Grede and, um, you know, on a different scale ’cause that’s just where we’re playing now.

[00:37:08] Um-

[00:37:08] Ankur: How do you direct outreach to Tom Brady?

[00:37:10] Nathan: You figure out who the right… So it, it’s the right-hand man principle You figure out who are the behind the scenes people that actually call the shots. Everyone’s trying to get like, “Oh, if I could just get three seconds of time of the right person, how do I position my…”

[00:37:23] And it’s like, what are you doing? They’re not the decision maker. They don’t, they don’t care. And so this would be a good example of, um, how we got Tim Ferriss on the platform years ago, it’s probably 2017, is I figured out, okay, who actually calls all the shots behind the scenes? Who’s the producer of the podcast?

[00:37:36] Who’s running the brand and all of that? Where do they live? Who can introdu- introduce me to them? Turns out getting the introduction to the person whose job it is to look at opportunities and filter through them, like it’s way easier to get in front of them because the last thing they want is the person they work for, um, coming to them later and be like, “Wait, you had this opportunity and you didn’t show it to me?”

[00:37:54] You know? So they’re gonna look intently like, is this something we should look at? Uh, and then go meet them in person. Um, I’ve had a bunch of times in my life where people have said like, “Hey, if you’re ever in New York, like yeah, let’s meet up.” And I was, “Great, if I’m ever in New York or in Boulder or wherever, you know, I’ll, I’ll do that.”

[00:38:08] And it’s like, no, no, no, that is the reason. You’re like, “Oh, funny enough, I’m gonna be in Boulder next week.” You know? And they… How is Monday at 4:00 sound? You know? Or, um, that kind of thing. That,

[00:38:18] Ankur: that’s exactly how we signed Pat Flynn to our platform. I, I told Pat I would be at trying to… One of the podcast conferences or something, and as soon as he replied, I booked my ticket and flew in- Yeah

[00:38:29] just for that meeting. And yeah, then he signed up and became an advisor and our biggest affiliate.

[00:38:34] Nathan: There’s an interesting filter on this kind of thing where cold outreach that’s an e- like an email, especially now, it’s even easier to send decent cold outreach, AI written at scale, right? And so our filters are higher.

[00:38:46] But if you say something like, “Hey, I’m gonna be at this event, um, you know, before or after your talk, I’d love to grab 20 minutes to ca- to catch up”, or you know, that type of thing ends up working really well, but you don’t actually have to already have the ticket to the event or already be going. You can line up the meetings, and if they’re not good enough, you’re like, “Oh, shoot, I, I couldn’t, couldn’t make it.”

[00:39:07] Or if you get the meetings, then you’re like, “Great, I’m going.” Um, so yeah, uh, I love the, the unscalable things that then you can systematize and do over and over again for go-to-market. What are you seeing works in go-to-market?

[00:39:18] Ankur: It’s crazy to me this still wor- this works because it’s the most obvious thing.

[00:39:22] Nathan: What a, what a hook. Uh.

[00:39:24] Ankur: I’ve been, I’ve been creating content too long. But I’ve, I’ve had really good success. I turned this off about a month ago, but before that, I had very good success with full AI content creation on channels I didn’t care about. So Twitter I care a lot about. I don’t want Claude writing, writing it for me.

[00:39:43] LinkedIn and Threads I don’t really care about that much. So I trained it, gave it keys to the kingdom, and you would think, you would think it would just be a bunch of slop, but it actually for both platforms gave me my best month ever as long as it was like, one, correctly trained, um, which meant giving it a lot of training on stuff I had actually done, things that worked, and then creating some kind of reinforcement loop where it stored every post and the performance.

[00:40:10] It would look at it, evaluate what worked, and kind of rewrite it. Um, I turned both of those on and it still works, and a lot of the accounts that are doing it well, you don’t even realize it. But a lot of this is automated. Um, the one caveat is you have to be o- like, some weird shit happened and I had to be okay with it.

[00:40:28] Like, it posted on my LinkedIn saying, “Life growing up in India.” I did not grow up in India. This was, this was, this was… Yeah. Uh, but it also replied to a bunch of people on LinkedIn saying shit I wouldn’t have. So there were small downsides. So I wouldn’t, I wouldn’t use it on platforms I care a lot about, but if your idea is you wanna grow and you don’t mind being a bit cringe or whatever, um, the right training still works, and I think there’s probably a brief window of time before we’re fully flooded with it, but I’m sup- I, I thought it already wouldn’t work.

[00:40:58] Nathan: And so if you were to execute on that, it’s giving it the library of content, either the huge back catalog that, that you have over time, um, or You could do like full context dumps in- into it where you could potentially for, you know, every day for three weeks straight, you could be recording voice memos on a walk, you know, as you’re walking the streets of New York or walking to the gym or whatever, dump that in there, and then- Yep

[00:41:23] it would feed off that.

[00:41:24] Ankur: The two things that made it work that wouldn’t otherwise are, one, like the fact that it could kind of learn how I wrote. Because otherwise you, you know, it, it reads like the standard AI sloppy read, but that’s only because you haven’t taught it how you write. Um, and the second thing is like just breaking down the anatomy of like what makes the post work.

[00:41:43] Like, oh, this is a hook. This is like a call to action, and kind of either saving that as a skill or something.

[00:41:49] Nathan: Yep. Um, and if you specifically have it brainstorm a bunch of different hooks off of an idea you give it, and you, you can select one and, and that makes a big difference. But especially don’t say like, “Write this entire thing.”

[00:42:02] If you say, “Write 10 hooks for this,” have it flow into this other one. The thing I would say is, um, there’s a markdown file, uh, called Tropes. I think it’s at tropes.fyi, and if you go download… It’s just all the common AI writing tropes that we all see and hate. And, uh, you can load that into your project, and then in any writing it’ll be like, oh, let’s not do the It’s not this but that, you know, or those common things

[00:42:26] Ankur: Also, it’s kind of bad, but repetition works.

[00:42:28] Like, if you have something that really works well, you can chop it up in different pieces for the rest of your life. I mean, again, I, I love Justin Walsh, but you read his content, it’s like, uh, he… The same thing dissected down slightly differently over and over, um, and you can apply that to anything.

[00:42:45] Audience member: Yep.

[00:42:45] Nathan: Okay, who’s got the next question?

[00:42:47] Audience member: I want to ask you, uh, knowing that, uh, when you build something in the morning, that, uh, the AI is evaluating so fast that the afternoon what you built has already been passed, and knowing that the VO is there, Lovable, Grok build, whatever the systems are available right now to build.

[00:43:06] So I wanted to have your point of view as investor, how you’re able to manage now, uh, the way that you’re going to invest in a company, knowing that it’s pretty easy to build something now on the side of the software.

[00:43:19] Ankur: To me, that’s a good thing because now we should be able to build dramatically better and more delightful things, right?

[00:43:27] Like, if all you’re building is, like, form entry or whatever, sure. But because we now have AI, I think there’s an opportunity to build, like, insane things that just could not be built before. Uh, but I do think, again, if you are going the route of venture capital, every investor is going to ask, you know, “What happens with AI?

[00:43:48] Does this become better or worse?” And if it doesn’t really go anywhere, things get much, much harder. Um, I’d love to hear Nathan’s answer to this question, since you’re… I mean, you see, again, we’re talking about HubSpot stock, and, you know- Right … there’s a whole con-

[00:44:00] Nathan: Yeah, I think, I think that we’ll learn over the next year or so which companies, I was, I was gonna say, have durable moats.

[00:44:07] Uh, I do think that there’s not much… Like, what’s a moat when the ocean… Like, what’s a moat in the middle of the ocean? It’s not really a, a, a thing. Um, I, I do think the valuations will come back as we see, um, or, or for types of companies, as, as we see what ends up being, um, being durable. Before you had to…

[00:44:28] Like, the person who had the idea and the person who had the skills to execute on the idea either had to be convinced that, to work together or, uh, be one employed by the other or something like that. Now, in more and more cases, that can be the exact same person, and you can go through so many iterations, and you can be like, “Oh, wouldn’t it be cool if this…”

[00:44:49] And then you, you know, speak it into existence. And you’re like, “Oh, actually that wasn’t as good as I thought,” or, “This is way better than I thought.” And so I think it’s really exciting that, um- Having ideas you can execute on them, you know, yourself now without needing someone else, at least for those early versions.

[00:45:07] Um, I think, so I, I think it’ll result in much better software products, much better platforms. Um, I do think that the speed of execution matters more than it ever has. It, it was the most important thing before, and it’s probably 10 times as important. Um, and so you have to, like whatever used to be a quarterly and then a monthly iteration cycle is probably a weekly cycle, and we should expect that to shorten further.

[00:45:35] My least favorite phrase is, uh, “By the end of the.” ‘Cause it’s just like a made up thing in business. Like, “Oh yeah, I’ll have that to you by the end of the week. Uh, you know, I think if we finish that by the end of the quarter, that’d be good.” I was like, why is June 30th the date that that… You know? Like, and so it just mean- it’s, it’s a signal inside of your company that someone did not think that through, and they just chose a convenient thing instead of thinking like, “Okay, that’s probably gonna take 36 hours, so yeah, no, we can have that by Wednesday at noon.”

[00:46:06] Yeah.

[00:46:07] Ankur: Can someone clip this video and whenever Nathan, someone says that in the ConvertKit Slack, it’s just a video of- … going under red.

[00:46:13] Nathan: There’s an agent-

[00:46:14] Ankur: It means you did not think it through.

[00:46:16] Nathan: There’s just an agent. Yeah. The best thing is I would probably say it, and then it’ll just reply to me. Um, I think, uh, who- Yeah, right there.

[00:46:24] You have a question?

[00:46:25] Audience member: Yeah. So one of the big things is like urgency, right? Like, for both of you, like in the companies you’ve built, like, like being able to move as quickly as possible to like solve the problem, because again, as the previous person said, like building is also easier. So getting to your first customers, building that sort of relationship, and building that mo- is more important than ever.

[00:46:43] So in that context, how do you guys, like what are your like first principles to stay focused in urgency? Because like everybody talks about moving fast, but I feel like sometimes you don’t necessarily know exactly what to do, but you want to do. If that makes sense. So like what are like the sort of north stars you sort of set to keep yourself like aligned?

[00:47:01] Ankur: Every business I’ve had has had like metrics we deeply cared about, so there was always the urgency still in some way, shape, or form had to kind of make sense for those metrics, and that always kind of focused us back. So for Carry, it’s like, okay, did this add customers or increase assets on platform?

[00:47:19] And if not, was it a building block to either of those things? Otherwise, like why are we doing it? Um, and that did help. I still personally believe, yes, there are downsides of like manic urgency or whatever, but speed of iteration is one of the only sort of controllable inputs that meaningfully changes the probability for success.

[00:47:41] So I’ll st- I’ll take the trade-off of someone doing like stupid shit fast versus the whole, you know, measure twice, uh, cut once approach. Um, but part of that is that’s the nature of how I like to work. There are founders who are the opposite, you know, very methodical, four years to launch a product. That can work for people, it was just not my specific style.

[00:48:03] Nathan: You have to be right for that, that ’cause you, you have so fewer, so many fewer, uh, chances for iteration. Uh, but I think that level of urgency is just towards a specific outcome. So you have to paint a picture of what the future looks like because you need to rally people Towards that outcome. You need a work back plan of how we’re going to get there and, uh, the metrics that you’re going to look at along the way.

[00:48:27] Um, but even the… You know, there’s little things like, uh, we have a new COO who just came into Kit, and he was like, “Hey, we’re, we’re evaluating our revenue and our growth numbers too infrequently.” I’m like, “We’re doing it every week.” He’s like, “No. Watch. Here’s how you calculate it on a daily basis, and here’s the outcomes.

[00:48:40] Here’s how it’ll shift the mindset for the team.” And I’m like, “Great. Okay. Let’s, let’s see that.” Um, but it really comes back to paint the vision for where we’re trying to go so we all understand that collectively. What are the metrics we’re going to use to track that? And then a work back plan. And then when you have that, then just absolutely as fast as possible.

[00:48:58] Did you have a question back here?

[00:49:00] Audience member: Yeah, I was gonna ask about you guys’ content workflows. I mean, you’re both super busy guys, but also prolific creators. So I’m just curious how you kind of balance those two things.

[00:49:09] Nathan: Content workflows. Do you wanna go first?

[00:49:11] Ankur: So I was actually just having this conversation.

[00:49:14] I, I realize I don’t like creating content for the sport of it. Maybe some people actually like it. I kinda don’t. And when, now that I’m no longer running Carry, where part of it was creating content, like you’ll see my content has dropped off 80 to 90%. Um, which was interesting, ’cause there are some people who do it truly for the love of the game.

[00:49:33] May- maybe you do. But I realize for me, content’s, it’s relatively speaking not a bad way to grow a business, and I like doing it for that reason. It can be fun in pieces. But I’m not a content creator at heart where I, I love this shit. Um, Twitter, I still like sometimes, you know, posting stupid things. But other content always takes a lot of effort for me, so my goal has been automate as much of it as possible, either with AI or have someone kinda do a lot of it for me.

[00:50:01] It’s just not what I found to be the thing that gives me joy.

[00:50:04] Audience member: When, when you were though, ’cause research and strategy is obviously a big part of content that actually performs, like did you, did that take a lot of your time?

[00:50:12] Ankur: Research and strategy was not a big thing for me. What, what helped a lot, at least with the content I did, which worked a lot of it, which was around personal finance, is a lot of this I was kind of learning myself.

[00:50:24] So every time I discovered something that legitimately I found surprising or, um, I did not know about, that I would share that, and that created a really nice reinforcement loop. Like, I was learning about a topic and I could share that, and that in turn found other people who were doing that. But I never went down the process of, okay, let me research popular topic, or popular videos in this topic or whatever.

[00:50:47] But then again, the channels that grew for me were all the text-based channels, which is very different. I never… I bet if I had to do a YouTube, that’s what the strategy would look like.

[00:50:56] Nathan: Yeah, I think that chasing what you’re interested in helps a ton. Um, we often have this idea that we need to be an expert before we can, you know, share from there.

[00:51:07] But often, like the most interesting things are what we just learned, and th- ’cause that excitement comes through, you know? Mm-hmm. When, when Ankur’s like, “Okay, I learned all the details of QSBS, let me write it up.” And people are like, “Wait, how do you know that?” And then they ask questions and, and it’s fresh.

[00:51:21] The other thing is, you know, we say like basically because someone teaches, we perceive them as an expert. And so- I would take the thing that you’re learning, the thing that you’re most excited about, and I would create content around that, and I would do it in real time, even if, um, you’re wrong about it.

[00:51:37] Or not wrong about it, even if you’re early on with it. So like, for example, I was learning to code in Ruby on Rails. This is like 20- uh, 2012, 2013. And I was getting stuck on the most basic things, and I would read these tutorials written by the experts who had contributed to the programming languages and everything else, and th- their tutorials, I w- I was getting stuck on things that weren’t covered.

[00:51:57] And then I came across a blog by someone who was, like, six months ahead in the journey than me, and they were writing stuff about like, “Oh, yeah, the total beginner gets stuck on this.” That everyone else was expert like, “How could, how could you be that dumb to get stuck?” And I was like, “Well, I was.” And so following someone who was just ahead of me in the journey ended up being the most useful thing.

[00:52:16] And so I try to pay that forward of sharing what’s fresh, what’s exciting, um, ’cause it often ends up being the most useful. But your question about workflows, just to talk about it. So, um, I, the last, like, year or so have made a big investment in building up my personal brand, and, you know, as a creator first and then kinda went behind the scenes, just heads down running the software company, and then now I’ve, um, brought back the, the content side of things, uh, ’cause I believe so much in the leverage of it.

[00:52:44] Um, but this time I’ve done it with a team. So, um, w- I have Chelsea, who’s here on my team, uh, in the back there, uh, who runs the… like, all of the operations for my personal brand as well as the Kit exec team. Um, and then she has reporting to her a head of content and head of social media. And so then they both are helping to pull ideas that I’ve shared, uh, help me re-record it.

[00:53:09] You know, it’s like, “Hey, this thing that you said in a podcast, like, there’s something there. Let’s write a newsletter about it. Let’s, um, uh, let’s re-record an Instagram Reel about that.” You know, maybe something that I fumbled over live, they’re like- There’s something good there. Let’s just ask you a question and give the crisp version that that will work as a, um, as a reel.

[00:53:27] And then we also work with a couple agencies. So, um, there’s an agency that does all of our podcast editing and, and clips. Uh, they’re called 7X Content out of the UK. Uh, and there’s another one called Ampersand Studios, uh, that we work with, uh, out in Boise, that they’ll come up with content ideas. Uh, and they’ll say like, “Hey, why don’t you, you know, create a reel or a post about this?”

[00:53:50] Uh, but really the podcast is at the core of everything that I do, um, or any time that I’m talking. And so the team is really good at mining when I say something interesting, and then deciding, okay, is that packaged well enough that it can be posted? Or is that interesting thing, could it be repackaged?

[00:54:08] Could we get you to say it again in a different format or with a better hook that then it’s worth posting? And so the ideas come first, and then we go, um, down from there, and that’s where the team can really help. Versus what a lot of people do, where they outsource the ideas and everything else, and it’s like you’re just another talking head on the internet.

[00:54:26] Ankur: I’m excited to see the real version of how EOD means you’ve not thought it through. So

[00:54:31] Nathan: looking forward to that. Yeah, exactly. See how that plays out. Um, who else has a question? I think we have time for… Let’s do two more. So we’ll go here and then back over to here.

[00:54:39] Audience member: Hey, guys. Uh, thanks for doing this talk today.

[00:54:42] Uh, I had a little bit more of a specific question. I know you guys mentioned you have a strong background in angel investing. Uh, so a few f- friends of mine, uh, and me are building an alumni angel network actually for our school, Rutgers. Um, but Rutgers doesn’t traditionally have a background of like, uh, startup operators or, um, I guess investors or people that go into that route compared to like Harvard or Stanford or other Ivy Leagues.

[00:55:05] So I was gonna ask from a background like yours, what would you suggest that, um… Or like strategies that we should use to try to build that, considering that it’s like a more of an emerging ecosystem now?

[00:55:16] Nathan: Well, first I was gonna say angel listing or angel investing is something that, uh, I thought would be really cool and fun, um- I don’t enjoy it at all, and I don’t enjoy the g- the, the K-1s that come back from it and everything else.

[00:55:29] So that was something that, you know, my hot take is I don’t like angel investing and, um, and I don’t know, I did 10 or 12 or something like that. Made some really good money on some of them, but I was like, “Oh, wait, I don’t… Just because everyone else does this as a founder, I don’t need to do that.” And it’s so freeing to be like, “Oh, yeah, no, I don’t, don’t do angel investing.”

[00:55:46] But you have a different take. I was,

[00:55:47] Ankur: I was gonna challenge the other assumption. Yeah. Um, well, yeah, I always say angel investing is, like, the most expensive newsletter subscription in the world, right? Like, phew. But, um- Yeah,

[00:55:56] Nathan: how to, how to lose money $25,000 at a time.

[00:55:58] Ankur: Yeah. I guess I would ch- I, I… Yeah, I would just challenge your assumption a little bit.

[00:56:03] Like, what, what about it makes you think there’s, like, network effects of tying it to a specific university? Like, is it the fact that… Like, what, is it the fact that, um, you’re gonna invest in other Rutgers founders? Or, like, why, why tie it to the university, I guess? I

[00:56:19] Audience member: guess the assumption was that, uh, you know, we wanted to build that ecosystem up within Rutgers, like, to build a brand image, and to kind of pay it back, pay it forward to, you know, where we came from, that kind of thing.

[00:56:29] Ankur: Got it. Um-

[00:56:30] Audience member: Because, like, for context, like, we built our, um, like, our Rutgers Entrepreneur Society, like, our club from the ground up, as well as, you know, a few other programs that are all, like, that coincide with each other. And so, like, passing that on to the next generation kind of thing, building it over n- or over time.

[00:56:47] Ankur: Got it. Makes sense. Um, so I think with, with angel investing, my general sort of guidance to people is it can be, it can be profitable, it can be fun. However, it’s a sort of thing that if you wanna do it, you wanna take many shots on goal. Um, it’s like, whatever budget people start out with, like, divide it into at least 20 little slugs because each…

[00:57:10] Like, as an aggregate, this model works because one company is an outsized success, and the only way to have any kind of predictability around it is to have a large sample size, um, of companies. Now, if I were to think about what I could do to grow this investment club, I think, I think it’s do you, do you get access to a lot of interesting deals?

[00:57:32] Like, any of these investment clubs really work when you have one thing truly kind of work, and then that becomes, becomes the example. So I would turn that back to you. Are there, I don’t know, very successful companies started by Rut- Rutgers alumni or something, and use that to kind of bring people in?

[00:57:48] Audience member: Mm.

[00:57:49] Got it. I mean, yeah, there are a few. Like Bloomberg, for example, one of the founders of Bloomberg was a Rutgers alumni. But I guess what we’ve noticed is that a lot of, uh, founders who have previously been from Rutgers, or founders, investors, whatever, they tend to kind of levera- or they, when they move up to a higher brand, I guess, for example, like their company or, uh, let’s say an MBA or something like that, they tend to, you know, drop the Rutgers, uh, affiliation per se.

[00:58:13] Ankur: Yeah, that would, that would be kind of be the challenge I would think as well. Like, I went to Cal Berkeley. I have… My school pride extends to sports, not beyond. Like, I don’t, I don’t like… Yeah, I watch the football team, I watch the basketball team, but I don’t feel super strongly or connected to, like, a very large state school with tens of thousands of people, and, um, that I picked because I didn’t get into Stanford.

[00:58:34] So I don’t, you know, I don’t, I don’t have super strong affiliation.

[00:58:38] Nathan: I would say, uh, think really clearly about the problem that you’re trying to solve. Sometimes we get excited about our particular solution, you know, like, oh, we’re going to use technology to network, you know, the angels in, in this community or whatever else.

[00:58:50] But it might be if you’re… If reputation is what you’re solving for, there might be better ways to… Like, storytelling of the companies that have come out from Rutgers alumni or something like that might be a much better way to accomplish that so that people are like, “Hell yes, this is the school that I went to,” instead of like, “Well, that’s where I started, but then I got an MBA from wherever else.”

[00:59:09] So think about what you’re optimizing for and work backwards from that. Um, let’s jump over… I think you’re one of the last ones, so maybe we can, Daniel, pass the mic over and-

[00:59:16] Audience member: My question is more about, uh, like you’ve been like a 2X, 3X founder now. Uh, how has your approach towards product market fit really changed over the years and all the time that, uh, you’ve like, uh, done things and, uh, like even for you, like, do you think there’s like a change?

[00:59:36] Because, uh, you, you both mentioned it’s like the hardest thing for you all. So how, how do you all approach that if

[00:59:44] Nathan: How do, how do we approach which part of it?

[00:59:46] Audience member: Uh, product market fit in general. Like, how has it changed for you over the years?

[00:59:51] Nathan: Yeah. I mean, you could say that I haven’t started another company because I’m too scared to face the abyss of a product market fit over again.

[00:59:57] Like, that’s the, uh, that’s the hard- like the absolute hardest thing, and you can’t buy it. Like, yeah. I’ll think about my answer more. Do you have, have some thoughts?

[01:00:07] Ankur: Yeah, I think, I think it’s not binary. I used to probably in the past think it’s more binary, like you either have it or you don’t. But with Carry, we had product market fit for a relatively small market.

[01:00:20] So we had like small product market fit, which was a good, not great company. So as I think about product market fit now, I think it’s, it’s as important as ever, but it’s not just any kind of product market fit. It’s product market fit in a very, very, very large market. Um, so that does change my thinking.

[01:00:37] Um, I think from … One thing I may do differently if I ever am stupid enough to start another company is I would probably promote and market it a lot less early on, find other signals, and try and like really make the product market sort of engine work before fully even committing to like, okay, I’m gonna go out and raise money or whatever.

[01:01:03] Like, I’d be fine taking that risk off my balance sheet and see, can I build something that is working in a really good way? And only then go out and raise capital, go out and, you know, do the whole company thing.

[01:01:17] Nathan: I think that’s a hard part about having an audience or a reputation as you come in, because it’s sort of like getting the advice from your friends and them lying to you.

[01:01:25] Your audience can do that in the same way. They’re like, “Oh, this is the coolest thing. I’d buy it just ’cause your logo is on it or, or because you’re, you’re building it.” And it might not be sustainable. And so you have to … You both should take advantage of every single opportunity you have. Like, I had this idea when I launched Kit early on that I didn’t want to use my audience because that was cheating somehow, which is the dumbest idea.

[01:01:48] Like, if you’re trying to, like, do one of the hardest things ever of, of build a company, like, use every advantage you have. Like, every unfair advantage. Um, but then you also have to, if you rely on an audience, you have to go find the people who don’t know you at all, and seek them out, and be like, “Hey, will you buy it?”

[01:02:06] And they’re like, “I have no idea who you are, but actually that sounds like that solves a real problem for me. So yes, I will, I will buy that.” All right, we gotta wrap up there. This has been a lot of fun. Thanks for coming to the very first, uh, live podcast at Kit Studios. I appreciate it. And Ankur, thanks so much for coming out.

[01:02:21] Ankur: Yeah, thanks for having me.

[01:02:24] Nathan: If you enjoyed this episode about building a company on your own terms, definitely check out episode 81 with Justin Jackson. He’s the co-founder of Transistor, which is a beloved podcast hosting company he built without any outside money. So that’s a great bootstrapping story if you’re interested in keeping control of what you build.

[01:02:41] Like the video if you enjoyed it, hit subscribe on YouTube, wherever you’re listening, and

[01:02:45] I’ll see you next week.

[00:00:00] Tyler: We are all tenants on YouTube’s land, on Meta’s land, on TikTok’s land, and, and they can kick us off at any time.

[00:00:07] Nathan: YouTubers are sitting on businesses worth far more than they realize. Many have built their entire enterprise on a platform they don’t own.

[00:00:13] Tyler: If any of your channels goes down tomorrow, you have no way to reach your audience.

[00:00:18] Nathan: Tyler Chow has spent 20 years as an entertainment attorney at Disney, Skydance, and BuzzFeed, and she was lead counsel on 18 feature films. Now she represents some of the biggest channels on YouTube.

[00:00:29] Tyler: One thing I want to caution creators about is-

[00:00:34] Nathan: She explains what makes a business worth buying, but also why some creators don’t need to sell at all.

[00:00:39] They actually just need to take a sabbatical.

[00:00:40] Tyler: The number one question I get from creators is, “Tyler, is this it? Like, do I just make videos for the rest of my life, because I’m getting really tired?”

[00:00:48] Nathan: Investors and studios are buying up creative businesses, and Tyler’s the person who runs those deals. A

[00:00:53] Tyler: lot of creators will say to me, “Well, like, what product should I launch?”

[00:00:56] Mm-hmm. Like, I don’t know. And this is my favorite strategy.

[00:01:00] Nathan: I love that

[00:01:05] Tyler, welcome to the show.

[00:01:07] Tyler: I’m so honored to be here. Thank you for having me.

[00:01:09] Nathan: So you and I have some of the favorite, like, our, some of our favorite topics in common- Mm-hmm … which is building large businesses, creator-led, and doing it in a way that is sustainable and everything else. Yes. So we, you’re talking to creators right now about how do you build for an exit, how do you protect your IP, all of those things.

[00:01:28] What are some of the things that you’re seeing right now in the creator space? Because you’re talking to private equity or any of these others. You know, they’re coming and they’re saying, “Hey, you have attention, we have money. What should happen?” Like, what, what are you hearing from the private equity side and the creators and, and the match or the mismatch that’s happening right now?

[00:01:43] Tyler: Well, so what’s super exciting is private equity fund, studio streamers- Mm-hmm … all understand now, right? We’ve, we’ve been talking about it for years- Right … but they finally are here. They get it. They get it. They’re like, “Okay.” Clearly, you know, Unilever last year saying, “We’re dedicating 50% of our ad spend to creators- Wow

[00:02:03] in digital media.” And I think that was a big indicator for the big Fortune 500 companies to start paying attention. Mm-hmm. So the private equity funds are coming and saying, “Okay, we wanna buy YouTube channels.” But what does that mean? I just came back from Cannes Film Festival. Mm-hmm. My first time. I, I, I was in Hollywood for 20 years and I never got invited.

[00:02:23] But now that I represent big YouTubers, now they wanna hear me talk. Yes. And so it was, it was r- quite a, you know, kind of watershed moment, and they had their first creator summit there. And I think private equity funds are saying, “Well, what does it mean to buy a YouTube channel?” Right? Mm-hmm. Or, what i- what does it mean to buy a creator-led business?

[00:02:42] Because they think, “Well, it’s a YouTube channel. I guess there’s AdSense dollars, you know, I think there’s brand deals, but there’s so much risk around the key man.”

[00:02:50] Nathan: Oh, yeah.

[00:02:50] Tyler: Right? So what happens if this YouTuber doesn’t wanna make videos anymore? You know, are, are we buying, I guess, is it maybe the back catalog?

[00:02:58] Is it the videos? You know, can we, can we license it to streamers? And, and yes to all of those. But the clients that I’m selling for $100 million have 15 revenue streams in addition- Mm … to their YouTube channel, because they’re building on their own land. They have an email list. They have a newsletter. Yep.

[00:03:17] You know, that’s very important. Owning your audience is The data, you know, data is the new oil. Like, you need to own your audience. I was at a master class back in December with te- 10 of the biggest YouTubers, all over 10 million subscribers. I asked them, I said, “With… You know, can you raise your hand and let me know how many of you have an email list of your audience?”

[00:03:38] Do you know how many raised their hands?

[00:03:40] Nathan: Oh, I’m guessing four.

[00:03:42] Tyler: One.

[00:03:42] Nathan: One. Oh, no, 10%.

[00:03:45] Tyler: I know. And I said, “So if y- any of your channels go down, goes down tomorrow- Right … you have no, you have no way to reach your audience.” Mm-hmm. 10 million plus. And I think the horror on their face, I think they’re starting to figure it out.

[00:03:57] Because what we’re seeing in the marketplace is a lot of creators are approaching burnout, right? Yeah. We’re six years from COVID, where a lot of creators started their channels, and the number one question I get from creators is, “Tyler-” Is this it? Like, do I just make videos for the rest of my life? Mm.

[00:04:16] Because I’m getting really tired. Right. So a lot of them are coming to me asking me, “Okay, what is … Like, how do I get off this hamster wheel?” And so that’s where a lot of the interesting conversations are happening. I’m running three active exits in, in the creator space right now. I have about three to five YouTube channels that are sort of behind them who are saying, “Okay, I wanna exit in a year or two.

[00:04:37] Get me buttoned up. You know- Mm … do I have clean chain of title?” Which, by the way, they don’t even really know that until I explain, you know, “Do you have clean B-roll? Do you have clean music? You know, do you have, um, work-for-hire language for your employees or independent- Mm … contractors?” The answer to that is usually no.

[00:04:52] Nathan: Okay, so I wanna dive in on the mistakes that people make and how to fix them early. But before we do that, let’s talk about the business model.

[00:05:00] Tyler: Okay.

[00:05:00] Nathan: So when we’re going to, say, an exit for $100 million, like, what actually is being purchased in that?

[00:05:06] Tyler: Sure.

[00:05:07] Nathan: There’s the channel and the audience, but also usually there’s a bunch more revenue streams.

[00:05:11] Tyler: Right. So sometimes, you know, the newsletter can be very valuable. Yeah. But a lot of my client, Jim Louderback, you know, he sells brand sponsorships and placements in his newsletter. It’s that captive audience. You know, if you have- Right … 30,000 of a specific audience in your newsletters, like, brands and, and the buyers potentially want that audience.

[00:05:31] Do you have a community? Mm. Do you have a course? Uh, do you have physical products? And my favorite right now are technical products.

[00:05:38] Nathan: Okay.

[00:05:38] Tyler: You know, um, apps. And I’m sure you’re seeing this, like, every single, every other one of my clients is like, “Oh my God, with Lovable and Claude, I’ve created three apps.”

[00:05:47] And it looks great- Yeah … and it’s beautiful, but then we, we bring, I will bring in a proper CTO for them who are, who are actually- Who can scale it … who are auditing it right now to even see if this is something that can go to market. Digital products I think are really important. I mean, I, I recently met someone who made six figures, you know, selling an $89, you know, digital product.

[00:06:09] Um, I think there are so many different ways to make money off-platform, right? I’m a, I’m a big proponent of, you know, we are all tenants on YouTube’s land, on Meta’s land, on TikTok’s land. Yep. And, and they can kick us off at any time, and YouTube is doing huge cleaning up right now, right? They’re terminating channels.

[00:06:27] They’re de- demonetizing. I’m sure you’ve heard of the stories, uh, probably friends who’ve asked you, “Oh my God, I lost my Instagram page. Can you help me get it back?” Mm-hmm. And Meta just doesn’t even respond to … There’s n- no live person. So the anxiety of building on someone else’s land is, I think, becoming more and more clear to creators- Yeah

[00:06:46] that they need to build somewhere else.

[00:06:48] Nathan: What are the things that you’ve said or how have you been able to convince them, besides the fear of loss? Like, we’ve, we’ve covered that, but- To get them to say, “Okay, I have five million subscribers to my YouTube channel, you know, I’m going to follow in the footsteps of like…”

[00:07:00] I think, like, Veritasium is a good example. They’ve built a really meaningful email list. Sure. I,

[00:07:04] Tyler: yeah, we should talk about Veritasium and MatPat. You know- Mm-hmm … those are the two YouTube channels that have sold to private equity, and they’re case studies right now. You know, private equity funds look at them and say, “Well, was that a successful acquisition?”

[00:07:16] Yeah. And the attention and, um, the views have gone down- Right … right, since… I mean, Veritasium has done a really good job. Like, he, Derek didn’t even really tell anybody for a year.

[00:07:28] Nathan: Yep.

[00:07:28] Tyler: And he’s like, “Surprise. Like, I’m actually not the owner anymore, but you guys haven’t noticed.” And

[00:07:32] Nathan: hadn’t been for quite a while.

[00:07:33] Tyler: Right, and I, and you haven’t noticed any difference, and this is, you know… So I think he’s done a really good job. You know, MatPat, I, I, um, I don’t follow it quite as well, but I, I, and I don’t know, you know, I wasn’t their attorney on those deals, so I don’t quite know, you know, the structure. But I do think, and you, we were talking about this off camera, I sometimes will convince m- creators or my clients to not go towards an exit, you know?

[00:07:58] Mm. The, the $100 million one that I’m running right now, we went out to market 18 months ago, and we were told that his business was worth 35 million.

[00:08:06] Nathan: Okay.

[00:08:06] Tyler: And I told him, I said, “You know what? Let’s wait three years. I think you’ll hit 100 million- Mm … in three years.” And I was wrong, because we hit it in less than a year.

[00:08:14] But that was because in that year, we built out the team, we, we, we put in more revenue streams. We built an amazing technical app, a budgeting app- Mm … that we’ll pro- we could probably spin off for 30 or 40 million on its own. And that’s what investors are looking for, right? They’re, they’re wanting independent streams of income that does not rely on the creator’s face.

[00:08:35] Nathan: Right.

[00:08:35] Tyler: Mm-hmm.

[00:08:36] Nathan: So in that example, if someone comes to you and, and says, “Hey, I have this $30 million exit,” as an example, “and should I take it or not? And if I were to take it, can you help me shepherd it through to the, to the finish line?” And you’re saying, “Hey, I actually think, you know, if you’re asking for my opinion, I think no, you shouldn’t, because you could triple this over the next few years,” what are the things that you’re encouraging them to do between, you know, day one when they bring it to you and a year or three years later when it’s like, “Hey, this is worth three times as much”?

[00:09:06] Tyler: So typically I will come in and do an audit for them and say, “Okay, what does your cor- corporate structure look like?” Okay. You’d be surprised. I’ve seen creator businesses making 10 million a year that goes through one single LLC, right? So they need a parent company. They need subsidiaries. Mm. You know, one that holds the YouTube channel, one that holds the technical app, one that holds the pr- pr- you know, physical products because every, you know, revenue stream has its own liabilities.

[00:09:32] Let’s say you have a supplements, you know, product line. Right. I wanna make sure that if anyone gets sick from that line, that they only, they’re only suing the product line, right, that LLC, not your YouTube channel, not your technical app, not your courses, you know, not your other things, not your real estate, you know.

[00:09:49] Mm-hmm. Because I also have clients who have their real estate in all of the same LLC, right? And so that’s kinda step one. Step two is what do your employment and independent contractor agreements look like? Do you have work-for-hire language that actually says you own the IP that they have created for you?

[00:10:06] This is very important for technical creators, you know, um, for creators who have technical apps if they have people building code for them. If they… If you don’t have that agreement, like, that CTO or that senior developer can walk away with the code and say, “That’s mine.” And I had this happen to one of my clients Where the CTO walked away with a lot of code, and they had to start over, and it was terrible ‘

[00:10:30] Nathan: Cause everyone assumes I hired you.

[00:10:33] Mm-hmm. I paid you for a service to write this code- Mm-hmm … and so I own it.

[00:10:36] Tyler: Mm-hmm.

[00:10:37] Nathan: And that is not the default way that it works. It works that way if it’s in the contracts.

[00:10:41] Tyler: Correct.

[00:10:41] Nathan: But otherwise, it’s not.

[00:10:43] Tyler: So first is, uh, corporate structure. Second is e- employment, independent contractor work for hire. Mm-hmm.

[00:10:51] Now, there’s also another wrinkle in there, which is huge, is do you have hidden misclassification lawsuits in there that the buyer will tear apart? Because that is something that’s huge in the creator economy.

[00:11:03] Nathan: And is this misclass- classification of employees, or

[00:11:07] Tyler: what? Well, so you, you will have independent contractors who work for you.

[00:11:10] Right But they really are employees. Mm-hmm. Because they’re working eight hours a day for you, 40 hours a week. They might be abroad or, you know, they’re mi- they might be remote, so you think, “Well, they’re not a full-time employee.” I, I know of creator businesses that have hundreds of independent contractors who are, who should be W-2 employees who are not.

[00:11:29] Once a buyer comes in and sees that, they will walk away- Mm-hmm … from that deal or reduce, you know, the purchase price by 50% because those are just lawsuits waiting to happen. And this is a, the, the… I, I will share this kind of like very insider information. Here’s what happens. Let’s say you have an independent contractor who works for you for a couple years.

[00:11:51] They leave, and, and you leave on good terms, right? Mm-hmm. Then they go file for unemployment, and then the labor d- commission will say, “Wait a minute. We’ve never received any W-2 from you. Why are you filing for unemployment?” Then they come and audit the creator.

[00:12:08] Nathan: Mm.

[00:12:08] Tyler: And that’s when they find the hundreds and hundreds of misclassifica- in misclassified employees, and those fines are very expensive.

[00:12:17] Mm-hmm. And so that’s something that I deal with for a lot of my clients. You know, do you have disgruntled employees? I mean, you look at MrBeast and his latest lawsuit of that woman, you know, who says that she took a call in the labor room, you know, and was, was let go when she came back from maternity leave.

[00:12:34] Those types of gender discrimination- Mm … you know, um, sexual harassment, any of those things, those are heavy, expensive lawsuits that buyers are going to be looking for in due diligence.

[00:12:46] Nathan: Right.

[00:12:46] Tyler: Clean chain of title. Do you… Every video you’ve made, do you actually own the music, the B-rolls? Um, is, is… I mean, reaction channels are worthless.

[00:12:58] Like, if you have a big- Okay … reaction channel, no buyer will touch that because you don’t own any of those videos.

[00:13:03] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:13:03] Tyler: Right? You could have hundreds of millions of views per video, but no one will touch that. Reaction… I mean, my one advice to anyone who’s watching, you know, is if you have a reaction channel seriously reconsider it.

[00:13:17] Or do it the right way. Go to the small creator that you’re reacting to and ask, either ask for their permission, co-collaborate with them on YouTube- Yeah … or pay them $50, you know, or what- whatever minimal amount to get their, their, the rights to, to that video. Because I’m seeing IP trolls coming out of the woodworks attacking big creators.

[00:13:38] Because you know what they do is they, the IP trolls, let’s say y- you’re a big creator and you have a compilation video with, like, 50, you know, TikToks in there. What the IP trolls will do is they will go to the 50 individual ones and buy the clips. And then they go- Oh, and so they own it now … and then they go to the big creator and

[00:13:57] Nathan: say- Because it actually probably only cost a couple hundred dollars-

[00:13:59] Tyler: Yes

[00:14:00] Nathan: per, per clip or something

[00:14:01] Tyler: like that. Or less, right? Yeah. And or they even say, or, or they’re even trickier and they’re like, “Oh, we are a clearing house, a licensing house. Give us the clips and we will sell them out, you know, and license it to studios.” So then they go back to the big creator and say, “Pay me six figures or I will take your channel down.”

[00:14:18] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:14:19] Tyler: And w- I’ve had to step into some of those deals and negotiate with them because YouTube actually says now, “We don’t help big creators with copyright strikes- Mm … because it’s a, it’s a legal issue that they cannot help with anymore.” They’re not gonna

[00:14:33] Nathan: get in the middle of.

[00:14:34] Tyler: Because YouTube- Mm-hmm

[00:14:35] probably gets millions of copyright strikes a day. Yeah. And they just can’t step into that. They used to. I, I heard in the past four or five years ago, you know, the big YouTubers would get help from YouTube, but now they don’t do it anymore.

[00:14:47] Nathan: Hmm. Okay, so that’s a whole bunch of things on the negative side, right, that you go through and clean up.

[00:14:52] Anyone who’s listening who’s like, “Wait, I’m, I’ve got 100,000 subscribers,” or or you know, “I, I just earned $100,000 a year in revenue-

[00:14:58] Tyler: Mm-hmm …

[00:14:59] Nathan: wait, I can actually start to fix this now.”

[00:15:01] Tyler: Oh, yeah. I mean, it’s much easier to fix it sort of earlier on-

[00:15:05] Nathan: Right …

[00:15:05] Tyler: than to try to do it, you know, backwards to, to try to capture maybe the hundreds of, you know, independent contractors or editors- Mm-hmm

[00:15:13] or people or, or, or B-roll clips that you’ve used or music clips that you’ve used. And, and I think most creators are savvy enough now. Yeah. They use, you know, like Epidemic Sound- Epidemic Sound, yeah … or, you know, different companies like that. And, and so I think music at least they understand. B-roll, B-roll is tricky, right?

[00:15:32] ‘Cause people will pull movie clips right into their- You’re right … and, and they think it’s fine. And I think in general it’s fine. You know, the advice I give to creators is if your use is positive or neutral, it’s probably fine. It’s only when you go really derogatory or you take y- or you say, “This is a terrible,” you know-

[00:15:49] Nathan: Yeah

[00:15:50] Tyler: “piece of film,” then maybe the studios will come after you and say, “Well, n- I, I didn’t give you a license or permission to use this.”

[00:15:57] Nathan: Right. Okay, so what should people do on the positive side? Mm-hmm. Uh, like let’s go maybe less on the IP and legal side and more on the on, the business side.

[00:16:06] Tyler: Sure.

[00:16:07] Nathan: Right? Of if we have this channel, we have all this attention, what do we direct it towards in order to build, like, real enterprise value?

[00:16:15] Tyler: So I think for a lot of creators, and you know, I say YouTube a lot because- Mm-hmm … that’s where most of my, my i- my clients are, you know? Yeah. The, the ones making long-form content are the ones creating media and real businesses. Um, sorry for the ones who are, are watching who might have short-form content.

[00:16:30] It’s just like it, it’s not quite there. I mean, I think short-form content you can make good living on the brand deal side. Mm-hmm. But there’s less sort of enterprise value. You know, you can’t license your content to Netflix or, or Tubi. You know, you can’t really become a production company in that way.

[00:16:46] Right. Um, so I think on the YouTube side, your first two revenue streams are AdSense and brand deals, and you should have those. Mm-hmm. Those are your kind of your foundations. We’ve talked about, you know, could you do brand placements in newsletters? What about a community? What about some type of course?

[00:17:03] You know, a lot of my clients tend to be educational or professional channels, so they have some type of wisdom or knowledge to impart to their audience.

[00:17:11] Nathan: Right.

[00:17:11] Tyler: And then the actual revenue streams that can come from having a physical product. You know, I, I know the biggest ones that people talk about are like Feastable and Prime and Emma Chamberlain Coffee.

[00:17:21] Now, I think consumables are, have very sh- small margins. It’s not a great, you know- Yeah … um, you have to just sell a lot, right? Like MrBeast does sell millions of, upon millions of units of Feastables and, and that’s how he makes money. But I think, you know, having digital products, I think having different types of physical products, technical products, that’s where we see really high multiples.

[00:17:45] You know, th- those are the 10 or 20X multiples that we’re seeing because buyers love reoccur- recurring revenue. Yeah. Right? It’s a SaaS product. You build it once, you can sell it to 10 million people, and it’s like, what’s your monthly, you know, revenue? What’s… You know, they look at churn. But it’s the easiest, I think, product to make for creators, especially with Lovable and Claude.

[00:18:06] You know, you can go make a lot of apps on your own now.

[00:18:09] Nathan: And you have the distribution. So what’s becoming the harder part, it used to be that building software was very hard.

[00:18:14] Tyler: Right.

[00:18:14] Nathan: And now building software is quite easy, relatively. Mm-hmm. Now building it in a way that scales and is secure and all of that.

[00:18:20] Tyler: You do need to bring a CTO in, okay? Yes. I, for, for all of the, the kind of like the vibe coders out there who are like, “Oh my God, I have this great product,” I, I’ve, I actually have three clients right now who all have told me the same thing, and I have another client who’s a senior developer who, who is offering fractional CTO services.

[00:18:37] Mm-hmm. So she’s coming in actually auditing these apps and saying, “Okay, actually, do you have a viable-” product, or do you think it’s, like, pretty right now? Right. Because that’s different, right? When you, when you put it out into the marketplace, and then you’re actually getting customers to use it, you know, that’s different.

[00:18:55] Nathan: Yeah. So having that checked, you know, by a- Mm-hmm … someone who, who’s a professional and, and, you know, building a team behind it is really important. But I, I think the advantage swings even more in the favor of creators now because they have distribution. Yeah. And they have brand.

[00:19:10] Tyler: Mm-hmm.

[00:19:10] Nathan: Um, so before if it was, like, maybe 50/50- Yeah

[00:19:13] like distribution and brand and software.

[00:19:16] Tyler: Mm-hmm.

[00:19:16] Nathan: Now the, the software’s become substantially easier- Yeah … and the distribution brand is, you know, still just as effective as ever.

[00:19:23] Tyler: And, and I think it’s really exciting because… And, and, and so a lot of creators will say to me, “Well, like, what product should I launch?”

[00:19:31] Mm-hmm. Like, I don’t know. And I… And this is my favorite strategy. Ask your audience, you know, “What products do you love? What is a pain point that you’re struggling with right now that maybe we could solve together?” Um, one of my clients, um, uh, is called A Life Engineered. You know, he has a small channel.

[00:19:49] It’s… I mean, small. Okay, 200,000, right? Like, he’s- Right, in the

[00:19:51] Nathan: scale

[00:19:52] Tyler: that you’re working with. In the scale of… Some of my clients have 10 or 100 million, right? Right. But it’s a great, very niche audience, right? So he, w- what his channel is about is, so he was a level seven engineer at Amazon. Do you know this channel?

[00:20:07] Have you heard of it? I don’t, no. Okay. So he was, he started this channel while he was working at Amazon. Amazon knew and, you know, they were fine with it. And his product wasn’t competing with anything he did in his day-to-day, was he was teaching engineers soft skills on how to do well on interviews, how to do well on their, you know- Mm-hmm

[00:20:25] 360 reviews within the company so that they could get to the next level engineer. Yep. Because that’s 100,000 usually, you know, every time you, you elevate a level. So then he, he launched a course that taught people how to do it. And we launched his course two times. It made over 400,000. And he was like, “If I’m doing this part-time, I wonder what I could be making full-time.”

[00:20:48] Mm-hmm. And so he quit his job last year, did it full-time. And what’s really cool about that is he asked his audience, like, “What is your pain point?” Right? And for a lot of them, they said, “Well- I always do terribly on my internal reviews. You know, like, I don’t know how to promote myself. I don’t know w- how to remember w- what I did well.

[00:21:07] And he actually has this great idea called a brag binder, right? Every time you do something well, like print out the email and just, like, put it- Mm-hmm … in this binder, ’cause you know we forget as time goes on. And then at the end of the year, show it to your supervisor and say, like, “These are all the things I’ve done this year.”

[00:21:21] Right. “You probably don’t know that because you’re not in the, my day-to-day.” And that’s really smart. So they’re very tactical things that he was helping his audience solve. They had a pain point. So I think, you know, poll, y- poll your audience and say, like, “What product would you need?” You know, a lot of photographers do this really well.

[00:21:37] You know, they, they create certain pieces of, of equipment that is like, that they needed for themselves. And so- Right … so then of course, other photographers need it. I think there’s really a way to involve your audience, because when you involve them, they feel a sense of ownership, right? There’s this creator called Mai Pham who has a hoodie.

[00:22:00] It sounds really simple, but she’s really smart. You know, she does an exclusive launch every three to four months. It’s that single design. When it sells out, it sells out. She never repeats it. Mm. So, like, people go crazy. Like, you know, she puts out a password that you have to enter. And I know this because I actually have bought her hoodies.

[00:22:20] Right. And I buy a lot of creator-led products just to see how they are, and it was… Nathan, it’s like the best hoodie I’ve ever owned. And it’s like $140. Yeah. It’s really soft. There’s like an individual, like, you know, um, message in there. Things like y- what you’re s- what you seek is within. You know, it’s very Zen-like.

[00:22:37] But what she’s really smart in doing is she brings her audience in every step of the way, from design, you know, she shows them the design. She has them vote on it. She takes them to the factory. She shows them, like, when, when the products go wrong, you know, when the stitching is wrong. So she’s … So by the time the product comes out, like, the audience is so, you know, invested in this product.

[00:22:59] They’re like, “We need to have it because we helped her design it. We helped her-” Mm-hmm “… you know, produce this product.” And I think that’s really smart. And she makes millions of dollars a year, by the way, selling these hoodies.

[00:23:11] Nathan: I think one of the best things is when creators introduce artificial scarcity.

[00:23:15] Mm. And it can even be real scarcity at first, right? Yeah. ‘Cause you’re like, “I don’t know. Are people gonna buy 1,000 of these? 10,000?” Mm. Let’s, let’s do 2,000 to play it safe. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. And the audience is like, “Are you kidding? We’ll buy 2,000 in-” Yeah … “12 seconds,” you know? Mm-hmm. But you end up in this place where if you deliberately- Say, sell 50% of the demand that you had- Mm-hmm

[00:23:34] or you, you know, cap, cap supply at 50%. Mm-hmm. Then you stay on this train of, like, people always wanting more.

[00:23:40] Tyler: Yeah.

[00:23:41] Nathan: And so there was a… When one of my kids, this is years ago now, was a baby.

[00:23:46] Tyler: Mm-hmm.

[00:23:46] Nathan: There was a baby carrier that was made by a small company.

[00:23:50] Tyler: Okay.

[00:23:50] Nathan: And they only had so many of them, and so they kept selling out.

[00:23:53] It’s like- Was

[00:23:53] Tyler: it the one on the hip?

[00:23:54] Nathan: Yeah. ‘Cause I loved

[00:23:55] Tyler: that

[00:23:55] Nathan: one. You can do it as a front carrier- Yeah, yeah, yeah … or the hip or all of that. Yeah. And it, it was an excellent carrier. Mm-hmm. People loved it and all that. Mm-hmm. But instead of figuring out, “Okay, how do we scale supply 10X to be able- Mm … to fulfill all the demand?”

[00:24:06] They said, “Wait a second. This is a feature, not a bug.”

[00:24:08] Tyler: Mm.

[00:24:09] Nathan: And so what they said- Smart … is every Thursday at 11:00 AM Eastern, we will post all the inventory that we have in our Facebook group.

[00:24:16] Tyler: Mm-hmm.

[00:24:17] Nathan: And then whoever gets one gets one, and then the rest of the time, you know, maybe there’s some used ones selling or…

[00:24:22] And they just continually got more and more demand, and people would be like, “Wait, how did you get one?” It’s like, “Well, I was in the Facebook group- … at 11:00 AM Eastern, and I bought it immediately.”

[00:24:28] Tyler: The exclusivity is so smart, but it’s just human psychology. Right. Because if you’re, if you’re told you can’t have it, you’re like, “Well, I need it.”

[00:24:36] Nathan: Right.

[00:24:36] Tyler: Right? And so, you know, I’m, I’m actually launching a, a creator exit accelerator soon, and I’m, I’m, I’m, I’m capping it at 10 spots because- Mm-hmm … I, I think that’s how you give, you know, people the right attention. But when people hear 10 spots, like, I already have a few signed up. They’re like- Right

[00:24:50] “Well, I want my place in that same 10 spots.” So I’m not trying to create scarcity because I have to do actual audits with them, you know, one-on-one, so like over- It involves your time. Yeah. Yeah. And over eight weeks. Like, I can only do so many. So humans are interesting because if you tell them, “Well, you can’t have it,” they’re like-

[00:25:08] “Oh, no, I need it.” Right? So there, that, there’s definitely some strategy that we’re, we’re, we’re- Yeah … sort of, you know, I think imparting to your audience that think about a pain point that you can solve. Mm-hmm. And then be realistic about how many, you know, items, you know, how many units you can launch.

[00:25:24] Because… So this is another part where, you know, a lot of my clients come to me and say, “Well, I wanna la- launch a physical product.” And I say, “Okay. Well, it’ll probably cost $10,000, you know, to do this first initial launch.” Right. That’s not a small amount of money. You know, that’s an investment. So perhaps that first launch is 500, you know, units- Mm-hmm

[00:25:43] or 1,000 units, and it’s a test, you know? And, and so I think a lot of the times a la- the launch is small, and so then there is a sense of scarcity.

[00:25:51] Nathan: Right.

[00:25:51] Tyler: And maybe that’s what happened with Mae Fam, is she just launched 500 at a time and just it sold out so quickly that she just kept it, you know, sort of small.

[00:25:59] But that’s also how you really keep a check on quality. Mm-hmm. And you know, I think our audiences have- Been burned by, you know, bad creator-led products where they just slap their name on it, and they’re not really checking quality. So I think the audien- you know, our audiences are very hypersensitive- Yeah

[00:26:17] about like, “Oh, are you putting a good quality product out into the market, or are you just trying to make money off of us?”

[00:26:22] Nathan: Yeah. Something else I’ve seen make a big difference in the quality of the company-

[00:26:27] Tyler: Mm-hmm …

[00:26:27] Nathan: is if you’re selling a either a rec- a recurring product or a repeat purchase.

[00:26:33] Tyler: Okay.

[00:26:33] Nathan: Right? And so if you’re thinking about, you know, you mentioned software.

[00:26:36] Mm-hmm. It’s obviously a recurring purchase. Mm-hmm. There’s plenty of subscriptions, like I think about there’s a author and creator named Sahil Bloom-

[00:26:42] Tyler: Yes.

[00:26:42] Nathan: He’s great … who launched his Wild Roman product, right? It’s not true recurring.

[00:26:46] Tyler: Mm-hmm.

[00:26:47] Nathan: But if it’s a skincare line, you’re like, “If you like it, it’s a repeat purchase,” and then actually they’ll get you on a, a subscription and-

[00:26:53] Tyler: So the, so that is the best model, right?

[00:26:55] So if a buyer is looking at your business, and, and I like to say, like, the gold standard is Mark Rober’s CrunchLab- Yeah … subscription boxes, right?

[00:27:02] Nathan: We, we get it every month.

[00:27:03] Tyler: Right. My six- Is it every month or every three months? Because I think in the beginning it was every three months. Is it every month now?

[00:27:08] Uh, it’s m-

[00:27:08] Nathan: m- my six-year-old puts together a CrunchLabs box every single month. Does he? And he could not be more excited.

[00:27:15] Tyler: Okay. Okay. Yeah. You know, I have a seven-year-old. I need to get that for him because the o- so I don’t let my kids watch YouTube. Mm-hmm. But the only channel he’s allowed to watch is Mark Rober- Yep

[00:27:23] because I know that’s safe, right? Yeah.

[00:27:24] Nathan: Our, our kids, it’s, it’s Mark Rober, Chef Nick, and Dude Perfect. Oh,

[00:27:28] Tyler: okay. Those are the three channels. So ours is Mark Rober- … and Cleo Abram is a little- Oh, yeah, yeah … favorite. We’ve, we’ve just introduced Cleo- Yeah … to him, and he really loves her. Okay. Um, I’m a- I’m actually about to go speak at Open Sauce in July and- Oh, nice

[00:27:40] I told my son, I said, “You know- … the speakers have been invited to Mark Rober’s CrunchLabs.” And he was like, “I need to go.” And so I, I think I might be bringing him. That’s amazing. But, but that’s the sort of like l- intense love and loyalty, right, that Mark Rober-

[00:27:55] Nathan: Mm-hmm …

[00:27:55] Tyler: who I know has probably 50 or 100 people in his R&D lab, right?

[00:28:00] Right. Who, who are, who are thinking of those ideas, who are able to get those customers to come back month after month, and that’s really important for a br- a buyer, like a private equity fund. They’re looking at- What is revenue that will keep occurring every month- Mm-hmm … for us versus, you know, sort of a one-off.

[00:28:20] Nathan: Launch driven. Mm-hmm. The best case scenario is that you have a brand that can be more than that person, right? Right. If they don’t show up to make a video- Sure … that’s still working, and that brand is promoting a product that will, will be purchased over and over again even if the creator doesn’t show up or a video isn’t made.

[00:28:36] Right. Uh, and so then probably the worst case scenario is the, the one-off, launch driven, entirely tied to the creator identity. Is that kind of a two ends of the spectrum?

[00:28:45] Tyler: I, I think so. And, you know, there, and there’s, there’s also a, an importance of naming your products, right? Mm-hmm. You know, I, I, I think … I don’t know.

[00:28:54] You, you get them every month. Is, is Mark Rober’s name on the CrunchBox? The, the CrunchLabs? I, I think it’s CrunchLab is, is the p- It i- The brand. Yeah. Okay.

[00:29:01] Nathan: That’s the brand of the company. They have their own YouTube channels- Yeah … for, for CrunchLabs. It might say by Mark Rober.

[00:29:08] Tyler: Okay.

[00:29:08] Nathan: But I, I feel … Like, as I watch from a distance, you’re like, “Oh, I see what’s happening here.”

[00:29:13] Mm-hmm,

[00:29:13] Tyler: mm-hmm.

[00:29:13] Nathan: It’s not like we’re trying to remove Mark or hide him from it, but you’re like, “Oh, this is its own thing.”

[00:29:17] Tyler: Yes, because we want it to be its own thing. You know, my, my client has, has, um … You know, Caleb Hammer has a, a, um, budgeting app. It’s called DollarWise. Mm-hmm. It’s, it’s standalone name. Mm-hmm.

[00:29:28] Right? Like, we don’t … It’s, it … We specifically, when I was doing the trademark and naming it, we were like, “We don’t want Caleb Hammer in there.”

[00:29:35] Nathan: Right.

[00:29:35] Tyler: You know? And so that’s what buyers want, is they want something that can be standalone, that doesn’t depend on this YouTuber wanting to make videos or not.

[00:29:44] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:29:45] Tyler: And, you know, uh, uh, we, we talked about the key man risk a little bit, so let’s tease it out a little bit more. Yeah. As, you know, when, when private equity funds are looking to buy these, these creator-led businesses, the requirement is that the YouTubers, and I know Veritasium and Matt have both did this, they stayed on for two to three years- Mm-hmm

[00:30:02] to kind of have, have more of a smooth transition. They’re there when, when they hire sort of, um, co-hosts, you know, to kind of wean the audience and teach the audience, “So here are the new hosts, you know, here are the new faces of the channel.” Ideally, the business is so independent, right? It has a full team, executives, right, who are running the company without the creator- Mm-hmm

[00:30:28] right? Who could allow this creator to leave after 12 months or 24 months, and the business would still run really well. I have a f- a five pillar, um, framework for what’s really sustainable in a business, and one of those pillars is the team. Like, who do you… Who’s your team, you know? My favorite phrase that I like to say right now is, “I can raise capital all day long, but the hardest capital to raise for creators is human capital.”

[00:30:52] Mm. Right? Mm-hmm. Like, hiring the right people, bringing in great operators who can run with things on their own. That’s really hard. Um, I mean, I think one thing MrBeast is doing really well is the churn is very high at his company, so it’s like, you know, we’re, we’re getting a, a, you know, like there’s a, a big pool of people now that we can pull from, you know, leaving MrBeast, and so they’re going to all the different companies now.

[00:31:16] I mean, Cody Sanchez is president, was, was- Right … Jimmy’s president. So it’s like, as time goes on, like we’ll get more adults in the room-

[00:31:24] Nathan: Yeah …

[00:31:24] Tyler: for lack of a better word. Now, there are all, a lot of people in corporate America or traditional Hollywood who, who also want to get into this space, who are coming in.

[00:31:33] You know, you look at Dhar Mann’s, uh, you know, president- Mm-hmm … Sean, he was at Discovery. So, you know, there, I think there are a lot of people who are interested and, and supportive of creators who are saying, “I’d like to come help you build.” And that- Mm-hmm … I think is the best s- you know, scenario, is if we can get really ex- you know, experts who’ve been doing this for 20 years who can come in and really help you guide that.

[00:31:55] I mean, I worked in Hollywood for 20 years at the big studios, and so I feel, you know, that I have sort of the expertise, but I have a deep love of creators. You know, I started my own YouTube channel three years ago- Right … because I had a midlife crisis, and I just fell in love with my fellow creators and realized so many of them get taken advantage of, right?

[00:32:13] You know, you, you see these brand deals or these contracts that get presented to creators that you would never see in Hollywood or in corporate America, you know, owning their name and likeness or their formats in perpetuity. But you have young creators who are like, “Oh, my God, someone wants to pay me $5,000 for a video?

[00:32:29] That’s insane,” right? “Here, I’ll sign whatever you want,” and that’s a problem.

[00:32:33] Nathan: And there’s all kinds of details in there that they- Mm-hmm … should never sign.

[00:32:35] Tyler: Sure.

[00:32:36] Nathan: Yeah. Going back to CrunchLabs. Mm-hmm. ‘Cause I, I do think that’s the, the best example- Yes … of a creator business done really, really well. Like, the, the IP is totally unique.

[00:32:44] It has its own brand. The fit, b- like, the, the creator product fit is- perfect. You know, like- Mm-hmm … it, ’cause sometimes you see these products where a creator comes out with that, and you’re like, “Okay.”

[00:32:56] Tyler: Mm.

[00:32:57] Nathan: Any- that’s cool. I think that’ll work. But anyone, any one of these, like, 50 people could have made that product.

[00:33:03] Sure. Sure. Whereas, are there other ones that are at the top of your list where you’re like, “Okay, this was done really well,” or, “This has the potential”? Maybe it’s still early on, but has the potential to be really big.

[00:33:14] Tyler: Um, you know, uh, I did a video about this. So there, there’s this creator called Amanda Rach Lee.

[00:33:20] She’s a- Yeah … bullet journal creator. She’s been making content on YouTube for over 10 years. She started when she was, like, 10. And then I think during COVID, when she was, like, 19 or 20, um, people asked her, you know, “W- why don’t you launch a bullet journal of your own?” And I think for her, it was, there was a hesitation because it’s like, it’s a blank journal.

[00:33:40] Nathan: Right.

[00:33:40] Tyler: Right? But she, she ended up putting her own designs in there. I think each month she did a design for each one. She sold… So it was $50, I know because I bought one. Um, and you know, creators are very transparent, so during that first day when she had the launch, she was showing how many units were being sold.

[00:33:57] Nathan, I think she sold a million units that first day. Right? That’s $50 million.

[00:34:03] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:34:03] Tyler: Yeah. That’s, that’s incredible. But that was a great fit, right? Right. It’s a perfect fit. For 10 years she had been doing journaling- Mm-hmm … writing. Like, there was no better product for her to make than a bullet journal.

[00:34:13] And so now she has a whole line of, like, pens and stickers and everything around that ecosystem. Mm-hmm. Um, another creator, Caroline Girvan, is a fitness creator. Uh, for years, so, so her story was great. So she was a CPA in Ireland, and during COVID, because everybody was locked down, she’s very fit, she’s like, “I’m just gonna do videos at home, and I’m gonna have you guys come along with me.”

[00:34:36] She never did a brand deal. She never made any money. And then I think three years later, she disappeared for six months, and people were like, “Oh my God, where did she go?” Like, “Did she go have a baby? Did she quit YouTube?” Right. And I was like, “I bet she’s building a fitness app.” And sure enough, six months later she, she launched this fitness app.

[00:34:55] It was, like, $20 a month or $99 for the year. Mm-hmm. I bought one ’cause I wanted to support her, and on the bottom, you know, it showed how many members she had, and it was something like 5,000. You know, so if you times 5,000 times 100, you know, like, what is it? Yeah. Half a million- Yeah … that she made on that first day.

[00:35:13] 500,000. Yeah. Right. And, and she has stopped making YouTube videos. Now, that I think is amazing because she has, she used, you know, YouTube as sort of a launchpad. To go and build on her own land. Because that app is hers, right? No one will ever take that away from her. Right. YouTube can’t kick her off. Um, she can do what she, whatever she wants over there.

[00:35:34] And that is what I really want creators to do, is to build on their own land, have their own email list, newsletter. You know, building on different platforms. I mean, there are ones like, there’s Uscreen, there’s TopFan, you know. Yeah. There are ways for you to just be on your own land, where you don’t even really have to be on YouTube anymore.

[00:35:53] I mean, you should still be on YouTube, because YouTube gives you AdSense. And if you’re, if you have the audience there already, you should just diverse all of your- Right … revenue streams.

[00:36:02] Nathan: I wanna get into the, how the AdSense is valued in the back catalog- Mm-hmm … and, and all of that in, in a moment. But I had a creator on, uh, Ben Greenfield, who is big in the fitness space.

[00:36:12] Mm-hmm. And he was telling me how much he has separated his whole Ben Greenfield brand from Kion, which is his supplements brand.

[00:36:20] Tyler: Okay.

[00:36:20] Nathan: Like, early on, he used the Ben Greenfield brand and, you know, like, a top 10 health podcast and all of this- Mm-hmm … to launch Kion and grow to a meaningful scale. But then he’s been very, very deliberate to keep it separate.

[00:36:33] Tyler: Actually, I didn’t even know those were connected. Okay, yeah. I, I know tho- I know them separately- Yeah … but I actually didn’t know they were connected.

[00:36:37] Nathan: So he’s the founder- Okay. Okay … uh, majority owner. Love that. Yeah. You know, he has a team and all of that. But he’s said he’s just watched so many people-

[00:36:45] Tyler: Mm-hmm

[00:36:45] Nathan: see where, you know, either through a, an acquisition or, like, a deal goes south. Um, or actually, well, an example of this that, uh, I was talking to someone else about recently is Mark Sisson with- Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm … um, Primal Kitchen.

[00:36:58] Tyler: Yeah.

[00:36:59] Nathan: Right? Like, textbook perfect exit.

[00:37:01] Tyler: Mm. Mm-hmm.

[00:37:01] Nathan: Incredibly well done. I think it was a $200 million ex- exit to Kraft- Mm-hmm

[00:37:06] in what? 2017 or so- like, it, it was a while ago.

[00:37:09] Tyler: Okay.

[00:37:09] Nathan: Um, but one thing I didn’t realize is that Kraft, through that, because it was so intertangled-

[00:37:14] Tyler: Mm-hmm …

[00:37:14] Nathan: Kraft owns all of Mark Sisson’s, the whole blog. The Mark’s Daily Apple blog-

[00:37:19] Tyler: Oh …

[00:37:19] Nathan: had to be acquired through that.

[00:37:20] Tyler: Interesting. Okay.

[00:37:21] Nathan: And they ultimately ended up shutting d- Kraft looks at it and they go, “We don’t know what content is in here,” and all that.

[00:37:28] Let’s just shut it down.

[00:37:29] Tyler: Oh, well

[00:37:30] Nathan: that’s heartbreaking. And so

[00:37:31] Tyler: because,

[00:37:31] Nathan: because it wasn’t, uh, untangled and wasn’t able to be untangled- Mm … or wasn’t worth it to, you know, a many, many billion dollar company. Then the creator is stuck in this position of like, “Hey, but I want my decade worth of content.”

[00:37:44] Tyler: Well, did he try buying it back?

[00:37:46] Nathan: I’m not sure in that case.

[00:37:47] Tyler: Okay.

[00:37:48] Nathan: Um-

[00:37:48] Tyler: So, so this is a great- Yeah … sort of segue that I, I want to highlight. You know, Nathan, when a lot of creators come to me and say, um, “I want an exit-” Mm-hmm … or, “I want an investor,” and I will say, “Why?” And they’re like, “Because I want free cash.”

[00:38:04] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:38:04] Tyler: Right? Because they think it’s free cash.

[00:38:05] And I, and I say, “Okay, but realize when you bring in an investor or a buyer that, you know, you pr- might have started this channel in your bedroom as a teenager, and you’ve never worked in corporate America. You’ve never had a boss.” Right. “But that’s what an investor or a buyer is, right? They’re coming in and telling you how to run your channel, how to make your content, what products to do, what brand deals to take.”

[00:38:27] It’s very, very sobering, and it’s a wake- Mm … you know, it’s, it’s, it’s not something I think creators think about. And then once I tell them that, and I’m like, “You’re making a million, $2 million on your own. You could make-” Right … “$5 million if we, if we set this up properly. Do you need to exit? You know, do you need to sell it?”

[00:38:47] Because there are these stories, right, where they sell- And then the channel or the business is destroyed- Right … or, or, or taken apart. You know, this is one of the bad, you know, nightmare scenario with private equity funds. You know, I, I think… I don’t know if you, you real- y- if you remember this, but in Pretty Woman, like, Richard Gere was a p- private equity- Oh, yeah

[00:39:09] fund guy, and his job was to tear companies apart.

[00:39:12] Nathan: Right.

[00:39:12] Tyler: You know, I think that, that they were… He was trying to acquire this company, and the son was sorta like, “You’re gonna tear my company apart.” Right. And I think a lot of creators and startup founders don’t realize that sometimes this can happen, right?

[00:39:24] This brand or this audience you’ve built maybe doesn’t stay the same anymore. Now, there are things you can do if you’re willing to stay on and, and give it a, a better transition. This is why I think having a l- a good lawyer on your side is very important. Right. Right? You can structure what that next phase of your business looks like.

[00:39:45] If you’re just getting a check and walking away, like, you could very well, like, you know, Mark, Mark’s, uh, you know, f- with, um, Primal Kitchen, like, that could be the cautionary tale. Right.

[00:39:56] Nathan: Yeah, and it might be in that case that you’re totally fine with it, ’cause you’re ready to move on. Yeah. Maybe. And the exit was for $200 million.

[00:40:01] Sure. Or it could be like, “Hey, can I have this, this side thing that doesn’t mean anything to you but means a lot to me?” Something that I’ve seen is people buying back their companies.

[00:40:12] Tyler: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

[00:40:12] Nathan: And so Catherine Lavery, uh, sold her company Best Self, which was a-

[00:40:17] Tyler: Okay …

[00:40:17] Nathan: a journal and, like, conversation cards company.

[00:40:20] Tyler: Mm-hmm.

[00:40:20] Nathan: They had won one of the Shopify Build a Business challenges years ago with, like, Tim Ferriss and Tony Robbins- Nice, nice … and all that. And built a really meaningful company, sold it to private equity. And then two years later, three years later, bought it back for the price of the inventory that was in the warehouse.

[00:40:36] Tyler: Hmm.

[00:40:36] Nathan: So like got this crazy deal to buy it back.

[00:40:38] Tyler: Okay.

[00:40:39] Nathan: Um, another-

[00:40:40] Tyler: Is it because they kind of let it die? Or- Yeah,

[00:40:42] Nathan: it, it-

[00:40:42] Tyler: Okay. Okay.

[00:40:42] Nathan: You know, you got professional managers who came in- Yeah … and said, “We know better.” Yeah. Sure. “All of this.”

[00:40:47] Tyler: Sure.

[00:40:47] Nathan: And then they inflated salary costs. Mm-hmm.

[00:40:50] Tyler: Mm-hmm. And,

[00:40:50] Nathan: um, turns out the scrappy creator-led business was run pretty well.

[00:40:54] Tyler: Yeah.

[00:40:54] Nathan: The other one is J.D. Roth- Okay … who wrote the blog Get Rich Slowly.

[00:40:59] Tyler: Okay.

[00:40:59] Nathan: And he actually did something similar to the Veritasium folks-

[00:41:01] Tyler: Mm-hmm …

[00:41:02] Nathan: where he… You know, this is probably one of the earliest exits in blogging. I wanna say it was sold in, like, 2013 maybe.

[00:41:08] Tyler: Mm-hmm.

[00:41:09] Nathan: He wrote the blog himself for a long time, gradually brought in other editors.

[00:41:12] Sold it, but didn’t tell anyone.

[00:41:13] Tyler: Okay.

[00:41:14] Nathan: And so a full year or more after the sale-

[00:41:17] Tyler: Okay …

[00:41:17] Nathan: he announced like, “Hey, I actually sold the blog.” And people were like, “Oh, it’s gonna be terrible now. This is straight garbage, all of this.” Mm. Like, “I knew it would go downhill.” And he’s like, “I’ve- I sold it a year ago

[00:41:27] Tyler: Ah.

[00:41:27] You

[00:41:27] Nathan: know? And

[00:41:28] Tyler: you guys didn’t

[00:41:28] Nathan: know. And, and you guys had no idea.

[00:41:29] Tyler: Yeah.

[00:41:30] Nathan: But he ended up being able to buy it back a few years later because… Yeah.

[00:41:33] Tyler: So that’s a great point, right? So when, when I structure an M&A deal, I make sure there’s a buyback clause.

[00:41:39] Nathan: Mm.

[00:41:39] Tyler: Because for this exact reason. Because sometimes you don’t know who you’re getting into bed with, right?

[00:41:46] Yeah. Who, who the buyers are. And because it’s all like dating, right? The first few dates are always great. Yes. But you have no idea n- like until a couple years later how it’s really going to play out. So having that buyback is really important because sometimes there are a lot of private equity funds who buy businesses thinking, right, they could, they could do certain things with it.

[00:42:04] Mm-hmm. And then for whatever reason, maybe they can’t or maybe they’re more focused on these other portfolio companies, they just kinda let it languish. And so the creator might go and, you know, travel the world for a year or two- Right … and be like, “Wait, I really miss my company,” right? Mm-hmm. “I miss, you know, my audience.”

[00:42:21] So, you know, having that buyback where you might lose a little bit of money or, or not. You know, like your example about the inventory was a great one. Maybe all that creator needed was to take some time off. Do you know what I mean? Yes. Like, maybe… And because so many creators- You

[00:42:34] Nathan: didn’t need an exit, you needed a sabbatical.

[00:42:35] Tyler: Yes. Like, we hit burnout, and we think, “Well, I can’t make videos anymore.” You know, it, it’s, it’s just hard when you’re on all the time and you’re making… Mm-hmm. You have to make content every single day, and you feel like you can’t take any time off. I… You know, there’s a, there’s a creator named Vanessa Lau.

[00:42:54] Do you know who she is? I don’t. Okay. So she kinda makes content, you know, f- I don’t know, for creators, like, to start their YouTube channel or their Instagram. She actually took a wh- like a whole year off, and, and her channel definitely took a hit. Mm-hmm. And like, you know, like, she lost subscribers, but she has come back, and she, she’s chronicled that journey.

[00:43:13] But it was so important for her to take that time off- Mm-hmm … because she had been basically pushing herself for, like, five years to just make content every single day. And, and her mental health was just, like, destroyed. And she took that year off, and now she’s come back, and it’s been really refreshing to see that her audience came back and- Mm

[00:43:33] picked up where she, she left off. So maybe w- m- something creators can take out of this conversations is maybe it’s okay to take some time off. Like, maybe you don’t need to sell your business. I mean, this isn’t something I’ve said before, but I, it just came- Right … came out organically, but maybe you just need to take some time off

[00:43:49] Nathan: Yeah, and I think knowing that as the creator you have options.

[00:43:51] Tyler: Mm-hmm.

[00:43:52] Nathan: And that the exit may be incredible. If you’re working towards that, great. Yeah. Or it might be, you know, designing a b- a business to keep for a long time. Something that I focus on when I’m building Kit is to build a business that’s set up in such a way so that it’d be really desirable to purchase.

[00:44:07] Tyler: Mm.

[00:44:08] Nathan: Because investors want the same… Like, investors wanna buy really good businesses.

[00:44:11] Tyler: Yeah.

[00:44:12] Nathan: So if you look at what do they value? Uh, recurring revenue- Mm-hmm … a great team in place- Mm … a great, uh, brand, not a lot of key man risk- Sure … you know, all of these things. If you have all of that in place and you’re like, “Oh, I have a perfect business to sell,” guess what?

[00:44:25] You also have the perfect business to keep- Yeah … and to operate. Yeah. And so, you know, view- that- that’s the position that I’ve been in is having acquisition offers and being like, “Okay, that’s amazing. What would you be looking for to make this business better?” And they’re like, “Oh, well, you d- have to fix X, Y, and Z.”

[00:44:38] And I’m like, “Great, thanks. I’m just gonna go fix- Mm-hmm … those things,” because that outside perspective really

[00:44:43] Tyler: helps. Oh, nice.

[00:44:44] Nathan: And then you have a business that-

[00:44:45] Tyler: Okay … you can keep and run for longer. So you use the due diligence, like, you know, to sort of benefit yourself then. I love that, actually. I’ve used it

[00:44:51] Nathan: once for that.

[00:44:51] Tyler: Okay.

[00:44:51] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:44:52] Tyler: Because, you know, the one thing I want to caution creators about is, let’s say you have a buyer come, come to the table and say, “We wanna buy your business.” The creator’s super excited, right? Right. Because maybe it’s 10, 20, $30 million. But what you don’t realize is maybe this buyer, who’s probably a competitor to you, just wants to look at your tech stack and, like, know your code and know, like, your vendors.

[00:45:15] And so one of the cautionary tales I have is please, like, if a buyer says, “Hey, just give us the raw files. Like, we’ll just, we’ll just analyze it ourselves,” please don’t do that. Please have an attorney. I know I’m sort of like a broken record, but especially- Yeah … with an exit, like, please have an attorney guide you.

[00:45:32] Please have a really strong NDA in place- Mm-hmm … you know, that has residuals protection. It has, you know, a non-, um, solicitation, non-circumvent, uh, trade secret protection because you don’t want that. Because some buyers- Right … will come to the table and say, “This is a buy or build situation,” meaning, “We’re gonna take a look at your product, see if we wanna buy it, a- and if we don’t, we’re just gonna go build it ourselves.”

[00:45:58] Right. Like, they’re very honest about it . I’m, I’m actually, like, very surprised. So you have to be so careful- Mm-hmm … that you’re not showing them your, your tech stack, you’re not showing them your vendor list, you’re not showing them the code, for sure.

[00:46:10] Nathan: The thing that I would be most curious about, so if I was coming in to acquire a company-

[00:46:13] Tyler: Yeah

[00:46:13] Nathan: ’cause you’re talking about, like, give me all the ra- raw files. Yeah. What I would most want is I want the cohort retention data-

[00:46:19] Tyler: Mm-hmm …

[00:46:19] Nathan: for your customer base- Yeah … by segment.

[00:46:22] Tyler: Yes.

[00:46:22] Nathan: So if I have that and I know, oh, from, for this product, if someone comes from the YouTube channel, they stay on average for 12 months, or, you know, any of those things.

[00:46:29] Mm-hmm. Like, that is insanely valuable data.

[00:46:32] Tyler: Totally.

[00:46:32] Nathan: And so you’re exactly right. People are like, “Well, they wanna pay me $10 million potentially, so here you go.” Yeah. And you’re just like, you just gave away something that’s so valuable. Mm-hmm. And that person might say, like, “Great, now we’re going to AI code our- Yeah

[00:46:46] own competitor for it,” or whatever else. “But thank you for letting us know that-”

[00:46:51] Tyler: I know … ”

[00:46:51] Nathan: this particular segment of customers is twice as valuable as that segment.”

[00:46:54] Tyler: Exactly. Most creators just aren’t thinking about it. They’re just heads down- You know, making a product, they’re not really business-minded, right?

[00:47:02] Because they’re not thinking about like, well… You know, I, I had a w- I had one client come in and say, “I think we could probably exit at four to, four to $8 million.” And then I ran, you know, the projections and the models, and I looked at the multiples of, you know, I, I did the com- the comparisons against, you know, kind of recent, um, exits in the last 18 months.

[00:47:23] And I was like, “I think we’re closer to a 10 to 20 X here, so we’re probably in the 30 to $40 million range.” And they were just blown away. They still don’t believe me, but I- Yeah … I think that’s the range we’ll end at. And this is why it’s nice to bring in, you know, experts and advisors to tell you, “No, you’re wrong.”

[00:47:43] Because they think like, “Well, I’m only making one or $2 million in, in revenue a year.” Mm-hmm. But like you’re not realizing what the multiples are and what the market is and, and what similar, you know, products to you have just exited at. Um, and that’s where, you know, I, I, because I do this so often, I can run those comps for them.

[00:48:00] Right.

[00:48:00] Nathan: And y- yeah, you’ve seen inside a lot of businesses.

[00:48:02] Tyler: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

[00:48:03] Nathan: How do you recommend that creators think about cashflow versus enterprise value? So building for maybe the, the lifestyle and the savings and investing now-

[00:48:12] Tyler: Mm-hmm …

[00:48:13] Nathan: uh, versus like, oh, I’m just trying to grow the brand and the revenue as high as possible, who cares about profit, so that I can have this big exit?

[00:48:21] Tyler: Do you mean they, they reinvest everything back into the business? Yeah, exactly. Okay. Well, I find most creators do that, right? They, they really do- They do, yeah … they really do put everything back in there. You know, the issue I’m seeing is a lot of creators are not taking salaries for themselves. Which is fine, but realize that buyers are going to calculate that in there, right?

[00:48:41] Because when they acquire, they acquire your business and they have to have a substitute, you know, like a, a replacement- Right … CTO or CEO, they’re gonna have to add in another 2 to $400,000 for that. So like you’re, you’re inflating your numbers by not taking a salary, but buyer- Someone’s gonna see

[00:48:57] Nathan: through it immediately.

[00:48:57] Yeah.

[00:48:57] Tyler: Like buyers- Yeah … are gonna calculate that immediately, right? So your margins are really not as good as you think it is, right? Right. Because you are, are investing everything back in or you’re not taking a salary. Um, so I think some creators, you know, or founders get caught up in that and they’re like…

[00:49:13] And, and it’s fine And I’ve said this to my clients, they’re like, “Well, should we keep some cash, you know, o- on the side? Um, or should we be putting it back into the business?” Mm-hmm. And I say, “I think it’s fine to put it back into the business, because the buyers will understand that.” But hopefully you are taking some money for yourself, because you gotta like, you know, like not just kill yourself.

[00:49:33] Like, because there is… ‘Cause that’s how burnout hap- happens, right? Right. When you’re not taking care of yourselves. I mean, I think as founders we really have to understand that we can only push for so long, right, before we burn out. And if you burn out, that’s when you get to the ki- that kind of desperate point of like, “Oh, I have to sell my business,” or, “I have to exit.”

[00:49:52] Whereas if you maybe were a little slower with your growth… Here, here’s an example. I, I have a client who to- came to me six months ago saying, “Okay, I, I know we’re ap- approaching burnout. We, we hear everything you talk about, you know, on your LinkedIn or your YouTube, so we need, we wanna diversify and launch a product.”

[00:50:10] So we came up with a great product. It was actually sort of like, like a CrunchLab subscription box. Yeah. Like house hacks, you know? Mm-hmm. And um, so they, they went away, and they were like, “Okay, we’re gonna work on it.” And I think three or four months later we talked again, and I was like, “How’s the box going?”

[00:50:24] And they’re like, “We have to put out th- five short videos a day. Like, we don’t have time,” right? And so they’re foregoing, right, their future self- Mm … for this kind of immediate, um- The short term … in- instant gratification. And the thing is, with a lot of creators, they’re addicted to this dopamine hit of like getting the high views, right?

[00:50:44] Getting the AdSense. Mm. So it’s like, it’s hard to wean them off of that hamster wheel of saying, “Well, but if you had a product line,” right? Like a physical product or a technical product, like, that can make up for some of your AdSense, right? Right. Like, maybe you don’t need to put out so many videos, because you’re actually making money over here.

[00:51:00] But that’s the sort of- Get dopamine, you know, like, reduction. I don’t, I don’t know how to solve it.

[00:51:08] Nathan: Right.

[00:51:08] Tyler: You can … I actually, I do know how to solve it. Here’s the solve. You just have to hire an operator to come- Okay … launch that product for you, right? You have to hire, maybe it’s a fractional CO, which, you know, I, I have, uh, access to.

[00:51:20] Or you hire a company that does it. You know, one of my clients is Whaler, and they actually have this company within their umbrella called Moby Ventures. So Moby actually launches physical products for creators. Mm-hmm. Um, Nami, uh, Matcha, which was from your mom, Ashley. I don’t know if you’ve heard of it.

[00:51:39] Yeah. Okay. So that’s b- from Moby, right? And, and, and Ashley just lets them, you know, launch it and, and ship it and, and, and take care of all the customer service for her. So all she has to do is take a, you know, do the marketing, right, and do the videos for it.

[00:51:55] Nathan: Yeah. Yeah, I think seeing those different examples is really helpful, ’cause then creators can say, “Oh, that’s what I want.”

[00:52:00] Mm. Do I want to be totally in it on R&D and the whole process? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And I, and I love operations, and so let me … Maybe I’ll bring the camera behind the scenes and even, you know- Sure … bring the, the audience on that journey. Or others are like, “I want nothing to do with that.” Yeah. “I wanna make the videos, and I want someone else to run the entire company.”

[00:52:18] And it’s very different ways of operating.

[00:52:20] Tyler: I think it’s usually the latter. You know? Yeah. I, I think they love making the videos. They love interacting with their audience. I don’t think they want to be packaging and shipping boxes, right? And I, I don’t want- Yeah … to be doing that. But, you know, I, I think

[00:52:35] Now, but the R&D part, maybe they wanna be involved in that. And I think there are, uh, third party, you know, vendors and, and, and operators out there who can do it. I u- I know Fourthwall does some sort of that. Yeah, they do. Right? And so there are company … Now, creators will say, “Well, I don’t wanna give up that, that revenue.”

[00:52:54] And I said, “Well, but you’ll be making 80% of money that you wouldn’t have been making in the first place. It’s no different than what you pay to your managers for your brand deals.” Mm-hmm. Right? You wouldn’t have gotten the brand deals on your own. So 80% is better than nothing.

[00:53:07] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:53:07] Tyler: Right? And so that, they, they do get caught up in that a little bit too.

[00:53:11] Nathan: Yeah, for sure.

[00:53:12] Tyler: Mm.

[00:53:12] Nathan: One way that I was thinking about the enterprise versus, uh, enterprise value versus cashflow-

[00:53:16] Tyler: Mm-hmm …

[00:53:17] Nathan: is really looking at the creator business and seeing, do you have something that is an acquirable asset? Because you were talking about the, the dopamine hits or the- Yeah … the treadmill of the five reels a day- Mm.

[00:53:28] Mm. Mm … or a week or whatever.

[00:53:29] Tyler: Sure.

[00:53:30] Nathan: Um, and those all may be bringing in short-term money. Yeah. But the moment that YouTube audience disappears, whate- or the moment you stop making them, it’s gone.

[00:53:37] Tyler: Or the algorithm changes.

[00:53:39] Nathan: Right? The algorithm changes.

[00:53:39] Tyler: Yeah.

[00:53:40] Nathan: Yep. And so all of that is- You have to take the day-to-day revenue or the monthly revenue that you’re getting, and either you, like, invest it in, back in the business to make a product, you know, like your subscription box- Mm-hmm

[00:53:54] or whatever else- Mm … that’s going to have enterprise value. Or you need to take a chunk of it out of the business and go put it in the S&P 500 Yeah … you know?

[00:54:03] Tyler: Sure.

[00:54:04] Nathan: And just say, “Look, I don’t have enterprise value that I’m building in this business- Mm-hmm … but I have great cashflow.” Mm-hmm. “And so 30% of the cashflow is going straight into the stock market.”

[00:54:12] Tyler: Yeah. And I have some clients who say, “You know, I wanna take, um, some cash off the table- Mm-hmm … so I can go buy a house or I can do some investments.” And, and so that’s also a good idea, is, is how do you bring in investors? You know, I like investors, um- Who are angel investors, right? Yeah. Bring in people who will give you $100,000.

[00:54:34] That’s a rounding error, you know- Mm-hmm … for, for, for their cash flow. Um, maybe bring in 10. I’m actually structuring this for one of my clients right now. For his app, let’s bring in 10 or 20 at 100,000 each, and they won’t look over your shoulder. They won’t, like, ask you like a private equity fund. Right.

[00:54:50] Like, “Hey, how’s the business? Show me your monthly revenue.” They, they just won’t care, right? They just, they just hope that when you sell one day, that that’ll be worth something.

[00:54:59] Nathan: And- And then they’re probably already a fan of you- Yes, yes, totally … and your product, and they want you to win. Mm-hmm,

[00:55:03] Tyler: mm-hmm.

[00:55:03] Nathan: And before I wanted you to win.

[00:55:05] Tyler: Mm-hmm.

[00:55:06] Nathan: And now I have all of those same feelings, plus I have some upside in it- Sure … which is even better.

[00:55:10] Tyler: Yes, exactly.

[00:55:11] Nathan: Yeah. That’s something actually that I did. You know, so Kit did not have any outside funding-

[00:55:16] Tyler: Okay …

[00:55:16] Nathan: for a very long time.

[00:55:17] Tyler: Okay.

[00:55:18] Nathan: And in 2021, we had an acquisition offer from Spotify.

[00:55:21] Tyler: Okay.

[00:55:21] Nathan: We turned that down.

[00:55:22] Tyler: Okay.

[00:55:23] Nathan: And that then resulted in a bunch of team members being like, “Well, hold on. How do we get liquidity?”

[00:55:28] Tyler: Mm-hmm,

[00:55:28] Nathan: mm-hmm. And so we ran a small secondary transaction.

[00:55:31] Tyler: Okay.

[00:55:31] Nathan: So no primary capital into the business, all secondary, and it ended up being about $6 million- Okay … uh, that came in at a $200 million valuation.

[00:55:40] Tyler: Nice.

[00:55:41] Nathan: And all from founders- Mm-hmm … you know, people that are friends of mine that I respect, you know, like Dharmesh Shah, the CTO of HubSpot- Mm-hmm … you know, and, um, people like that, and we’ve done another round since then. And in hindsight, I would’ve done that much sooner-

[00:55:56] Tyler: Yeah …

[00:55:56] Nathan: because having 20 to 40 people who are in your corner and cheering for you, like it matters.

[00:56:04] Tyler: Who are advisors to you, by the way. Yeah, and they paid for that. Like you can call them. Yeah- … you can call up a- anytime and say, “Hey, like, what should I do here?” That’s so valuable.

[00:56:11] Nathan: So I think, I think of, like, two examples. Mm-hmm. Uh, one is a gentleman named Noah who runs a software business in a totally different space.

[00:56:17] Tyler: Mm-hmm.

[00:56:18] Nathan: But when I have, like, software problems, I, I’m talking to him. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. And he’s, he’s put a couple million dollars into, into the business and, you know, buying shares from former team members.

[00:56:27] Tyler: That’s

[00:56:27] Nathan: great. Um, another one is James Clear who wrote Atomic Habits, right? He’s-

[00:56:30] Tyler: I’m so glad we’re talking about this ’cause I wanna talk about books, right?

[00:56:33] Yeah. ‘Cause books is big for creators right now. I’m doing several book deals for creators, but I’m a big fan of James. L- tell me, tell me what you wanted to say.

[00:56:40] Nathan: Yeah, so with James-

[00:56:42] Tyler: Mm-hmm …

[00:56:42] Nathan: you know, authors are huge for Kit.

[00:56:44] Tyler: Mm-hmm.

[00:56:44] Nathan: We, at any given time, probably half the New York Times list- Wow … is, has a Kit newsletter.

[00:56:48] Tyler: Mm-hmm.

[00:56:49] Nathan: I feel like we have tons of the space, and we, we dominate the space compared to any of our competitors. But if you were to walk into Barnes & Noble I have had this experience where I’m like, “Oh, kit customer, kit customer” as I’m- Mm-hmm … pointing at books. Mm-hmm. And I’m like feeling, “Oh, this is great. We have so many of them.”

[00:57:03] Mm-hmm. Realized, wait, I can see 1,000 books from where I’m standing, and I can point to five-

[00:57:08] Tyler: Mm-hmm …

[00:57:08] Nathan: 10 that are kit customers. Mm-hmm. Like, okay, we have a tiny fraction of the market.

[00:57:12] Tyler: Mm-hmm.

[00:57:12] Nathan: And so having James as a shareholder, you know, he’s like, “Great. How do we get this person on the platform? How do we make this happen?”

[00:57:19] And it’s different than a paid advisor, ’cause he actually put his money into the business.

[00:57:24] Tyler: But he’s- Well, I love that. Yeah. I lo- that- that’s genius, right, is having fans and customers, you know- Mm-hmm … be on your cap table, be advisors to you. Let’s talk a little bit about books. I love it. I, I, you know, I actually am writing a book m- right now myself.

[00:57:39] It’s called Creator to CEO.

[00:57:40] Nathan: Nice.

[00:57:41] Tyler: Um, and I have an offer from a major publisher. I, I haven’t taken it. I, I don’t know that I wanna go with them, because I do have this fantasy, because I’m an IP attorney and I say to creators- … “You should own your IP,” that I should- … you know, hybrid publish. Yeah. I should self-publish.

[00:57:55] But I also wanna be a, a New York Times bestseller, and I know if you go self-publish, you can’t, you just can’t touch that, right? You ha- like Alex Hormozi will never be on the New York Times- Right … bestselling list, but he has sold a lot of books, right? Yes, he has. Um, so tell me… I, I mean, I, I know you’re supposed to be interviewing me, but like- However

[00:58:12] tell, tell me how creators should be thinking about books, you know? My client Ca- Caleb Hammer is, is writing one right now for Penguin, and I also represent Derral Eves, you know- Mm-hmm … who has, uh, the YouTube formula. I think, um, for myself at least, I think a book maybe will allow me to reach an audience that n- n- maybe mi- might not typically- Right

[00:58:33] see me from YouTube or LinkedIn. Um, how are, how should creators be thinking about books? Like, should they, should they all- Yeah … go write one?

[00:58:40] Nathan: I, I think the books are fantastic because it condenses- Mm … so much exper- experience that you have into something so attainable for 20 bucks.

[00:58:50] Tyler: Sure.

[00:58:50] Nathan: And then it also transfers a huge amount of credibility.

[00:58:52] Right. Right? And so every author that I’ve seen, even if they’re big on social media, you know, and, and all their content, publishing a book- Usually with a traditional publisher- Mm-hmm … puts them into a different category.

[00:59:06] Tyler: Sure. I

[00:59:07] Nathan: actually just did a podcast episode with James Clear and Madeline McIntosh. Uh, I think it dropped just a couple weeks ago.

[00:59:14] Okay. So it’s on the show. So Madeline was the CEO of Penguin Random House US.

[00:59:18] Tyler: Okay.

[00:59:19] Nathan: And she left a couple years ago, and started, along with James Clear and a few others, Author’s Equity-

[00:59:24] Tyler: Okay …

[00:59:25] Nathan: which is, like, their dream publisher.

[00:59:26] Tyler: Okay.

[00:59:27] Nathan: And so on that episode, they break down exactly why they started it- Yeah

[00:59:31] how it’s going, all that. Mm-hmm. And so I signed with them for my book-

[00:59:34] Tyler: Oh,

[00:59:34] Nathan: okay … which is coming out in December.

[00:59:35] Tyler: Oh, congrats.

[00:59:36] Nathan: Thanks. Um, and it’s, it’s a hybrid model where they, you, as the author, you don’t pay anything out of pocket.

[00:59:43] Tyler: Okay.

[00:59:43] Nathan: What happens is you make 70% of all revenue-

[00:59:47] Tyler: Wow …

[00:59:47] Nathan: and, of, uh, sorry, of all profits on the book.

[00:59:49] Um-

[00:59:49] Tyler: So that’s flipped.

[00:59:50] Nathan: And they make 30%,

[00:59:52] Tyler: so it’s flipped. Right, because for traditional, uh, publishers, you only make 30%.

[00:59:55] Nathan: Or less. Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. And so what they’re doing is basically you split all the expenses 50/50. So Author’s Equity will pay for all the costs of cover design, everything else. Design,

[01:00:06] Tyler: okay.

[01:00:07] Nathan: And, and they’re very cost-effective with all of it. And then after that, after those profits, or, sorry, once the book is profitable, then you get the revenue split on it, that 70/30.

[01:00:18] Tyler: Okay.

[01:00:18] Nathan: A lot of people just think about the money-

[01:00:20] Tyler: Mm-hmm …

[01:00:21] Nathan: but they don’t realize, like, all the second-order effects of that.

[01:00:25] Tyler: Mm-hmm.

[01:00:26] Nathan: So for example, Author’s Equity has a better Audible deal than you could get on your own.

[01:00:31] Tyler: Oh, interesting.

[01:00:32] Nathan: I actually have a few friends who have self-published audiobooks- Mm-hmm … that have sold a million copies or more, who have switched that to then sign through Author’s Equity-

[01:00:41] Tyler: Okay …

[01:00:41] Nathan: because they’re making more per copy.

[01:00:43] Tyler: Okay.

[01:00:43] Nathan: But then another thing is no one really can make Amazon ads profitable for books.

[01:00:49] Tyler: Okay. ‘

[01:00:49] Nathan: Cause if you think about it, if I, if I as the author am making $3 per hardcover- And I’m trying to get someone to make a $20 purchase on Amazon to buy the book. Like, I can’t get a return on ad spend that’s enough for that $3 to cover the 20.

[01:01:03] Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

[01:01:03] Tyler: Like,

[01:01:04] Nathan: that’s never going to happen, so people don’t do it. Author’s Equity has a different model where they will put up all the money for the ad spend.

[01:01:10] Tyler: Hmm. Interesting.

[01:01:11] Nathan: They will take it out of the expenses for the book.

[01:01:15] Tyler: Okay.

[01:01:15] Nathan: And then, you know, because $20 came in, you had maybe $3-

[01:01:19] Tyler: Right …

[01:01:19] Nathan: uh, in actual hard costs-

[01:01:21] Tyler: Right

[01:01:22] Nathan: uh, printing costs. So then of that 17, like you can actually probably get to a positive return on ad spend.

[01:01:27] Tyler: Wow.

[01:01:28] Nathan: And then the profits, maybe there’s only $2-

[01:01:30] Tyler: Mm-hmm …

[01:01:31] Nathan: in profit all the way at the end for that book, and as the author you’re making 70% of that, and it’s not very much. Mm-hmm. But guess what? You just got the book in the hands of readers, and you got paid to do that.

[01:01:41] Tyler: Yeah.

[01:01:42] Nathan: Whereas Penguin or Hachette or whoever- Mm … they’re never gonna become super sophisticated with ad spend.

[01:01:48] Tyler: Totally. So with Author’s Equity, are they able to go into Barnes & Noble?

[01:01:53] Nathan: Yes.

[01:01:53] Tyler: And, and, and so you can get on the bestselling

[01:01:56] Nathan: list? So w- and a good example would be- Okay … Joseph Nguyen wrote the book Don’t Believe Everything You Think.

[01:02:00] Tyler: Mm-hmm.

[01:02:01] Nathan: And he self-published.

[01:02:03] Tyler: Mm-hmm.

[01:02:03] Nathan: Sold over a million copies.

[01:02:04] Tyler: Okay.

[01:02:05] Nathan: And never hit the New York Times list.

[01:02:08] Tyler: Sure.

[01:02:08] Nathan: He should have dominated the New York Times list.

[01:02:10] Tyler: Yeah.

[01:02:10] Nathan: But he’s self-published, so he’s never- Right … going to make it on. So he republished the book with Author’s Equity. Okay. And then spent like 25 weeks on the New York Times list.

[01:02:17] Tyler: Wow.

[01:02:18] Nathan: And he was able to use all of his marketing savvy. Like, he’s a genius when it comes to, uh, BookTok- Mm. and TikTok Shop. Mm-hmm. And, you know, all of that to get the book in the right people’s hands, and he actually trained the Author’s Equity team on how to use all of his methods.

[01:02:32] Tyler: Amazing.

[01:02:33] Nathan: Um, and so yeah, he was able to, you know, hit the New York Times list and do everything in that way.

[01:02:39] Tyler: Um, can I get an introduction- Yes … to Author’s Equity? I will introduce you to Madeline and James. I, I w- I would, I would love to talk to them. What is your book called? What is the title?

[01:02:47] Nathan: Yeah, it’s called The Ladders of Wealth.

[01:02:48] Tyler: Okay.

[01:02:48] Nathan: How to Master the Skill of Making Money.

[01:02:50] Tyler: Wow.

[01:02:50] Nathan: Comes out December 8th.

[01:02:51] Tyler: Amazing.

[01:02:52] And is it, does it have sort of a creator focus or no?

[01:02:55] Nathan: Um, it’s like m- an entrepreneurship focus. Oh, okay.

[01:02:58] Tyler: Okay.

[01:02:58] Nathan: Y- Creator is part of that. In The Ladders, I talk about how every, as you move… It’s basically a framework for how you earn more money and build wealth over time, and as you move between the ladders, an audience- Mm-hmm

[01:03:10] is the most valuable thing you could have in that.

[01:03:12] Tyler: Yeah.

[01:03:13] Nathan: This is, you’re like trying to launch a new product, trying to go a new direction.

[01:03:15] Tyler: Mm-hmm.

[01:03:16] Nathan: Um, it’s a whole other thing. So yeah- What- … audience is a chunk of that.

[01:03:19] Tyler: What is your goal for your book? ‘Cause this might be helpful for- Mm … all of creators to think about.

[01:03:24] For me, you know, actually the one goal is like if I can get more speaking. Yeah. Like, if I can speak i- to corporate companies or, or- Mm-hmm … traditional Hollywood studios, I think there, you know, there is a desire for that. But I think that, that gives you a sense of, you know, credibility and expertise, right?

[01:03:40] What is your goal for your book?

[01:03:42] Nathan: Yeah. The, the- Biggest top level goal is I’m trying to write the roadmap that I wish I had as a kid.

[01:03:48] Tyler: Mm. Okay.

[01:03:49] Nathan: Right? Where, you know, 14-year-old me was like, “Okay, how do I-

[01:03:52] Tyler: Mm-hmm. ”

[01:03:53] Nathan: How does even the whole world work?” I’m trying to, to map it out- Sure. Yeah … and be like, “Look, this isn’t a…

[01:03:56] it isn’t luck.” You know, like- Mm-hmm … there is an ac- actual concrete steps you can take. And I wanna get that message to as many people as possible. So it’s kind of a crazy thing, but I wanna sell a million copies of this book.

[01:04:08] Tyler: Okay.

[01:04:09] Nathan: Or r- I actually don’t care about selling a million copies. I care about getting it in the hands of a million readers.

[01:04:14] Tyler: Mm-hmm.

[01:04:15] Nathan: And then if we… Like, everything has to tie back into business in some way.

[01:04:19] Tyler: Okay.

[01:04:20] Nathan: And so I think about the opportunities to grow and promote Kit are packaged in a way that don’t, it doesn’t lend itself to media or podcast tours or things like that, like getting the message out in front of more people.

[01:04:35] Tyler: Mm-hmm.

[01:04:36] Nathan: It’s like if you were to try to go on, um, you know, Good Morning America. Mm-hmm. And you’d be like, “I have a software company.” Mm-hmm. And they’d be like, “Oh, oh, okay?” Mm-hmm,

[01:04:45] Tyler: mm-hmm. ”

[01:04:46] Nathan: Well, we don’t care.”

[01:04:46] Tyler: Yeah.

[01:04:47] Nathan: You know? But if you’re like, “I have a book coming out and it’s about this,” and they’re like, “Okay, great,” you know?

[01:04:51] Yeah. It’s packaged in a way- Yeah … to get the message out there.

[01:04:53] Tyler: Got it.

[01:04:53] Nathan: And it’s a much more approachable thing-

[01:04:55] Tyler: Mm-hmm …

[01:04:55] Nathan: for someone to come into my world.

[01:04:57] Tyler: Mm-hmm.

[01:04:58] Nathan: Um, and so I want the book to do that for Kit. Got it. Because Kit’s a big business. We have over 100,000 active creators on the platform and, and all of that, but we still, we just have the tiniest bit of the market right now.

[01:05:11] Mm. And so it could be way bigger.

[01:05:13] Tyler: Interesting.

[01:05:13] Nathan: And I think that the right book will help get Kit in front of a lot of new audiences.

[01:05:19] Tyler: Yeah, that’s super cool. Yeah. How long did it take for you to write it?

[01:05:23] Nathan: Uh, somewhere between 2 years and 12 years, depending on how you count.

[01:05:28] Tyler: Okay. Um, I’m trying to write this thing in six months, so wish me luck.

[01:05:31] Nathan: I, I think it’s doable. Yeah. I think, I think what I would say on writing a book is write every single day-

[01:05:37] Tyler: Okay …

[01:05:38] Nathan: no matter what. I only finally made progress when I-

[01:05:40] Tyler: Really? …

[01:05:41] Nathan: when I did that.

[01:05:42] Tyler: Like, how, what was your… Like, give me some, some tangible, like, an hour a day, or, like, what, what finally made it work for you?

[01:05:48] Nathan: I would say, like, any amount.

[01:05:50] Tyler: Okay.

[01:05:50] Nathan: Um, you could say 20 minutes.

[01:05:52] Tyler: Okay.

[01:05:53] Nathan: Right? ‘Cause you could always ha- find time for 20 minutes.

[01:05:55] Tyler: Okay.

[01:05:56] Nathan: And I think the, just that relentless progress is really important. Finding a really good editor-

[01:06:01] Tyler: Okay …

[01:06:02] Nathan: makes a big difference.

[01:06:03] Tyler: Do they help with that, or do you-

[01:06:04] Nathan: Yeah. Okay. So actually, Author’s Equity hired…

[01:06:06] The first editor that they… The way that it works is in traditional publishing, the editor who acquires the book also often helps you develop the concept and all of that. Sure,

[01:06:17] Tyler: sure.

[01:06:17] Nathan: Author’s Equity has split those.

[01:06:19] Tyler: Okay.

[01:06:20] Nathan: And so they say, “We love this book.” And Author’s Equity only publishes, I think, like, 20 books a year, so- Okay

[01:06:25] they don’t do a lot.

[01:06:26] Tyler: Okay.

[01:06:26] Nathan: Um, and they have to really believe in the book and the marketing behind it ’cause they’re taking a big risk- Sure … uh, on it. But then what they do is they hire, like, a developmental editor to work with you.

[01:06:40] Tyler: Okay.

[01:06:40] Nathan: And so having those calls every week-

[01:06:42] Tyler: Mm-hmm …

[01:06:43] Nathan: you know, I, accountability, turns out,

[01:06:46] Tyler: helps- Yeah, yeah.

[01:06:46] When, when someone’s gonna ask you, “Hey, how far did you get this week?” “How’d you get?” Right.

[01:06:49] Nathan: And you’re like, “You, you said you’d finish these two chapters.” Did you? And you’re like… And so often for me, it’d, it’d be like the night before- Yes … or the day before, I’d be like, “Oh, I’m gonna call with Zach tomorrow.”

[01:06:59] Tyler: Mm-hmm.

[01:07:00] Nathan: And he’s gonna very nicely ask, “Did you do what you say- Mm-hmm … like, you said you were gonna do?” Mm-hmm. And I’m gonna be like, “No.” And

[01:07:07] Tyler: so then- See, I need that. I need a deadline because, because I, you know, I have, I have my law firm, I have my Creator Arc M&A, I have, you know, all of these things. I’m al- also trying to make content, like the book just…

[01:07:19] And, and my two kids. Right. So the book always, like, just slips through the cracks. Right. So if I have no one sort of like holding me accountable or keeping me on track, I think it’s really hard.

[01:07:29] Nathan: It was the biggest thing for me. Like, I only made progress when I put it as the number one thing.

[01:07:33] Tyler: Okay.

[01:07:33] Nathan: Where I said, “At least 20 minutes of time writing the book.”

[01:07:36] Tyler: Okay. It

[01:07:36] Nathan: has… Like, that’s a non-negotiable for the day.

[01:07:39] Tyler: Okay.

[01:07:39] Nathan: And it sounds terrible, but I was like, “Okay, that’s more important than time with my kids- Mm-hmm … or working on a kit or all that.” Mm-hmm. The truth is, none of those things ended up, like-

[01:07:50] Tyler: Suffering,

[01:07:50] Nathan: right? … suffering.

[01:07:51] Tyler: It’s just the mental game, right?

[01:07:52] Nathan: It was just- Yeah

[01:07:52] what did you put first. Mm-hmm. And then I was like, “Oh, well, I can actually make sure I get the, the 20 minutes of writing in before anyone wakes up or before- Right. Right … whatever else. And often that would be an hour or more. Mm-hmm. Um, but that consistent progress-

[01:08:05] Tyler: Thank you. That’s helpful …

[01:08:06] Nathan: matters a

[01:08:06] Tyler: lot.

[01:08:06] Okay, I’m gonna, I’m gonna do that.

[01:08:07] Nathan: I like it.

[01:08:08] Tyler: Mm-hmm.

[01:08:08] Nathan: Um, okay, the last question that I wanted to ask about on the acquisition side is, you see the back catalog in music- Mm-hmm … be really important.

[01:08:17] Tyler: Yes.

[01:08:18] Nathan: You know, with Justin Bieber and everybody else selling- Mm-hmm … selling their masters, selling their, their catalogs.

[01:08:23] Mm-hmm. Does that matter in YouTube? Or is it really people are looking at, like, what is the channel doing today?

[01:08:31] Tyler: Well, I think there’s certainly that, that can be one revenue stream, right? I, I think a lot of, I, I, I’m putting my clients’, you know, catalogs on Tubi or, you know- Mm-hmm … Netflix. I actually was at Netflix last week, and I met with the executive who did Mark Rober and Jordan Matter’s deal.

[01:08:47] Yeah. And they’re, for Jordan Matter, it’s like I, I lo- I love to share this story. So I was speaking w- uh, in, in, in this group of creator e- experts, and Jordan came and spoke. I, I spoke first, and then Jordan spoke after me, and he was kinda sharing about, you know, his daughter Stylist’s- Mm-hmm … skincare line, right?

[01:09:03] That, like, do you know that story? And the guy’s at

[01:09:05] Nathan: Target and everything else.

[01:09:05] Tyler: Yeah, like that full 40,000. We

[01:09:06] Nathan: actually got to hang out with J- uh, with Jordan in Dubai-

[01:09:09] Tyler: Oh, okay …

[01:09:09] Nathan: a few months ago, so he was lovely.

[01:09:11] Tyler: Yeah. So just, you know, the, the 40,000 p- you know, kids who showed up for her- Mm-hmm … la- product launch, you know, her makeup line.

[01:09:18] So what’s so great about their overall deal on Netflix is, you know, it’s, it’s a moment in time, right? It’s, it’s where a big streamer or studio says, “Okay, YouTubers are clearly important.” Right. “We need to get them on our platform.” And I asked Heather, I said, “Well, why is it important, you know, to have YouTubers on, on the s- on wh- our, our…

[01:09:40] or on Netflix?” And she said, something that was really clarifying was she said, “A lot of parents don’t allow their kids to watch YouTube.”

[01:09:48] Nathan: Right.

[01:09:48] Tyler: Right? I, I don’t w- allow my, my son. Um, but they will let them watch it on Netflix, right? Mm-hmm. ‘Cause it’s safe, right? ‘Cause they, they do curate what, what is o- on there.

[01:09:57] They, they make sure it’s nothing, especially, uh, if it’s, you know, under the parental kids channel.

[01:10:02] Nathan: Yep.

[01:10:02] Tyler: So Jordan Matters, they took 10 of their videos and put it, uh, you know, YouTube videos, right, on a catalog. That show became like number three or four in all of Netflix. Not just in kids, but all of Netflix.

[01:10:19] Yeah. And I was like, “What is that about?” And, and she said, “It’s just wholesome content. You know?” Mm-hmm. “It’s, it’s, it’s a relationship between a father and daughter. It’s, you know, it’s her navigating her teenage years with her friends. You know, she’s very brand safe.” And it introduces a whole audience, right, who has never heard of them because they’re, they’re not on YouTube.

[01:10:40] To go back to your point of like YouTubers who have back catalogs who are brand safe, like could be selling these, you know, catalogs- Right … to a Netflix, to a Tubi, Amazon, Hulu, H- Disney, because they all need content right now, right? Because this is free content basically that they didn’t have to greenlight or, or pay, you know, m- a budget towards.

[01:11:03] And Tubi’s doing this in a big way. Tubi’s also doing original content. You know, Netflix is doing- Yeah … original content. What I say to my clients is, you know, think of your back catalog as just additional revenue. Another thing I like to tell my clients to think about is to have a network of channels, right?

[01:11:20] Okay. So not just your own channel. So, you know, let’s say one of my clients is a, a, a male finance creator. Well, can you have like a female creator? You know? Mm-hmm. Maybe a, a, a, a gay or lesbian creator. You know, like all finance still, right? Yeah. Um, who will capture different parts of the, of the demographic that you’re not capturing.

[01:11:39] It diversifies, you know, the key man risk. Mm-hmm. And for a, a private equity fund or a studio to say, “Oh my God, you have 10 channels?” That’s amazing, right? That’s a business we would wanna acquire.

[01:11:52] Nathan: Well, I think that example is so important. Like any acquirer or, you know, any founder is like, “Well, I see the potential.

[01:11:59] I could go d- go and do these things. Once this is successful, I can go and start those other channels.”

[01:12:04] Tyler: Yeah.

[01:12:04] Nathan: And everyone … You know, the acquirer is like, “Yeah, hypothetically.” And so some friends of mine, uh, built a, uh, virtual assistant staffing company called Belay, and they sold it for, I think it mid … Like 100 million.

[01:12:16] Between 100 to 200 million. Nice. And something that they did is they realized they would be going into these conversations and saying like, “Oh, you can hire a great CEO to replace us.”

[01:12:25] Tyler: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

[01:12:26] Nathan: And they’re like, “Wait a second. Why make it a hypothetical?”

[01:12:28] Tyler: Yeah.

[01:12:29] Nathan: And so they hired a great CEO. They trained them.

[01:12:31] They did all of that. Waited 12 months, and that CEO took the company to market and ended up selling it to, you know, to private equity and- For

[01:12:38] Tyler: more?

[01:12:39] Nathan: And all that. I, I think for an amazing acquisition. Okay. Yeah. Like everyone was very, very happy with this.

[01:12:43] Tyler: Okay.

[01:12:43] Nathan: And the owners were just in the background.

[01:12:46] Tyler: Mm-hmm.

[01:12:46] Nathan: And so it wasn’t like, oh, the, you know, the, the private equity folks aren’t thinking Could we hire operators who are just as good as the founding team? Mm-hmm. Or that’s something that’s like, oh, no, there’s a team already in place. And so it’s that same thing of like, okay, can you make the leap from one channel?

[01:13:02] Can you back yourself out of, you know, can you take care of some of these issues beforehand, before the acquirer brings it up?

[01:13:10] Tyler: I think so. And, and some creators are. You know, Jesser is one of my clients, and he has several channels, you know? Mm. And, and I think creators, to reduce their potential path down to burnout They are thinking of having smaller, younger creators come in, you know, who have the drive, you know, who have the sort of the fresh- Right

[01:13:32] you know, eyes on, on content. Because they’ll be bringing in a new group of audience. Mm-hmm. And, and, and sometimes m- some of my clients are going to creators who have maybe 10,000 or 50,000 subscribers already, and then asking to acquire. Right, they’ve proven that you can show up consistently. So, yeah, so they, they acquire their channels.

[01:13:50] Mm-hmm. And then they bring them in as an employee, and then so that channel just becomes part of the network that they have.

[01:13:55] Nathan: Yeah.

[01:13:55] Tyler: So I’m doing this with several clients right now, which I think is really smart, and it’s, it’s … You know, basically you’re, you’re becoming your own studio or, or proper network, you know, like an NBC or like an ABC.

[01:14:08] So.

[01:14:09] Nathan: Yeah.

[01:14:09] Tyler: Mm-hmm.

[01:14:10] Nathan: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Well, we could talk all day about- Yes … all of this. Yes. Um, thank you so much for coming on.

[01:14:15] Tyler: Of course.

[01:14:16] Nathan: If people wanna learn more about what you’re doing, follow your channel, all of that, where should they go?

[01:14:22] Tyler: Um, so my handle is thecreatorsattorney, and you can find me on YouTube or LinkedIn.

[01:14:27] I write quite often on LinkedIn. Um, you know, this moment in time, Nathan, is so cool. Like, I just came back from Cannes Film Festival, where I brought my clients, Creator Camp. Mm-hmm. They just announced today, Deadline announced that MT- MK2 acquired all Europe rights for their film. Wow. Do you know about this film, Two Sleepy People?

[01:14:44] Nathan: I don’t know about it.

[01:14:45] Tyler: So they made a film, $100,000, over 100 days. They gave themselves that goal, that they were- Okay, wow … gonna make it 100 days. And- I love

[01:14:53] Nathan: constraints.

[01:14:53] Tyler: Yes.

[01:14:54] Nathan: And that, that’s quite the constraint.

[01:14:54] Tyler: Yes. And so the two creators were, uh, the American Baron and, and Carolyn Grossman, and it’s about two people who work together.

[01:15:04] So it’s like Severance meets Eternal Sunshine of the Spot- Spotless Mind. So it’s two coworkers who work together. Apparently, they take this, like, melatonin, um, gummy that allows them to dream every night that they’re married to each other, but then when they wake up, they totally don’t remember that.

[01:15:20] Nathan: Okay.

[01:15:20] Tyler: And they wanted to go into the theaters, and they just did it. They went to independent theaters and said, “Hey, can we show our films in your theaters?” And they were like, “You’re crazy. You’re not a studio, but sure.” Like, they gave them a goal. “If you can pre-sell every theater at $10,000, we’ll let you do it.”

[01:15:38] Okay. But they did two, and then they did 10, and then so they did several hundred, and they would drive in their RV and actually go show up at- To the showings … every single one- I love that … of these showings. And Kickstarter picked it up. Um, we, you know, they spoke to Adweek back at South By. We took it to, to France.

[01:15:55] We took it to the Cannes Film Festival. And this was their first year, the Creator Summit. And so on stage was Markiplier, you know. Okay, him. He, he had Iron Lung, and Seb, this French creator whose film actually premiered at the Cannes Film F- Film Festival. So, you know, I’ve been talking about this for three years.

[01:16:13] I left Hollywood behind, you know, to come represent and protect these young creators. And This moment is here. You know, when I left Hollywood, so many of my former colleagues said, “Don’t do it.” Right. Like, “It’s a terrible idea.”

[01:16:26] Nathan: You’re taking

[01:16:27] Tyler: this huge risk. “There’s, there’s no money in this space. You’ll be babysitting kids.”

[01:16:30] And now, Nathan, I have three offers from the biggest law firms in Hollywood asking me to bring my book of business in. Right. And I actually said, “I don’t think I need to.” Yeah. “But thank you so much.” You know? And so it’s, it’s q- quite a moment in time for creators. Um, I, I really think it’s, um… You know, I think Colin and Samir said this, you know, this is, uh, the, the era of abundance for creators.

[01:16:55] Mm-hmm. It is. And, um, this is such a lovely conversation. Thank you for having me. I’m, I’m a big fan, you know, of what you’re doing, so thank you.

[01:17:03] Nathan: Yeah. Thank you so much. If you enjoyed this episode on building a valuable YouTube business, one of the best examples I know is Ali Abdaal. He joined me on episode 35, where we break down how he’s scaling his business towards $10 million.

[01:17:16] We get into revenue streams, the team, and how it all can run without him. You’ll see exactly what Tyler described put into practice. Like the video if you enjoyed it. Hit Subscribe on YouTube or wherever you’re listening, and I’ll see you next week.

[00:00:00] Pat: There’s a 50% chance I’m gonna cry on this podcast.

[00:00:02] Nathan: Pat walked into the studio joined by SPI’s community director, Liz Wilcox, to announce something big he’s been keeping a secret for months.

[00:00:10] Pat: 18 years into SPI, I am officially no longer the owner of Smart Passive Income.

[00:00:15] Nathan: Pat is someone who’s defined the creator economy and helped so many creators get their start, build their businesses, and more.

[00:00:21] Pat: I kind of needed to let go of this to grow into something else that was calling me.

[00:00:25] Liz: Today is day one. I mean, you’re hearing this for the first time. Pat and I have a very similar mission. We love early stage entrepreneurs. Wanna make sure the audience know that they’re in good hands.

[00:00:36] Pat: My biggest worry with all of this was the audience at SPI feeling like I abandoned them.

[00:00:41] Nathan: Yeah. My favorite thing is how he’s continually reinventing himself.

[00:00:47] Pat: Have been told a lot that I am the MrBeast of the Pokemon space, and I’m like, “No, I don’t wanna be the MrBeast. I wanna be Mr. Rogers.”

[00:00:56] Nathan: I love that. Can’t wait for you to hear what he’s up to in this next chapter.

[00:00:59] Pat: This might be the first time some people are hearing about this too, but I recently bought a building.

[00:01:04] Didn’t lease it, I bought it. 8,000 square feet-

[00:01:07] Nathan: That’s so big …

[00:01:08] Pat: to build a-

[00:01:10] Nathan: So insane

[00:01:15] All right, so the big news, you sold a business, Pat. Liz, you bought a business. I bought one.

[00:01:20] Pat: Yeah. And it’s the same one. It’s the same one. Yeah. Oh, hey, there you are. Um, yeah, big news. I never thought this day would come. 18 years into SPI, I’m officially no longer the owner of Smart Passive Income- Yeah

[00:01:35] which is insane.

[00:01:36] Nathan: Started in 2008.

[00:01:37] Pat: 2008, uh, after getting laid off, and thought it was gonna be something I would do forever, but you know, I’m sure we’re gonna dive into the why and the what comes next and-

[00:01:46] Nathan: Yeah, and how you’re f- gonna be fully retired after this and everything.

[00:01:49] Pat: Definitely not, no.

[00:01:50] Nathan: Okay, we’ll get into that.

[00:01:51] Pat: Yeah. No, there’s a lot coming, but I kind of needed to let go of this to grow into something else that was calling me, you know? And I’m very grateful to have Liz come in and, and take the baton, not to replace me but to kind of continue the legacy of, of what I’ve started. And there’s… Honestly, I’m so lucky to have you.

[00:02:10] There’s nobody better- … that could take this and, and take it to the next level, and give it the attention it needs- I’m- … and the audience.

[00:02:17] Liz: I’m so glad we’re recording this. That feels so

[00:02:21] Pat: good.

[00:02:23] Liz: Yeah, we’ll clip that, and then you can just play it every day. Right, right. That’s going on social immediately. Just, “There’s nobody

[00:02:25] Nathan: better.

[00:02:26] There’s

[00:02:27] Liz: nobody…” Just anytime I have a bad day. No, I’m so grateful. Just like Pat, I wanted this because I wanted to step into the next bigger, like, calling for myself, so it just was very, I don’t know, uh, kismet or-

[00:02:43] Pat: Serendipitous.

[00:02:44] Liz: Serendipitous, thank you. I like

[00:02:45] Nathan: that. So Liz, what was the thing that made you go?

[00:02:48] What was the moment where you’re like, “I want this. I wanna buy this business”?

[00:02:52] Liz: Yeah, so actually, my sister works for Pat, uh, in his Pokemon channel- Okay … and does, like, helps him with his card parties and stuff. And we were on the phone, and she was talking about it and just saying, “Oh, you know, Pat just seems so stressed.

[00:03:06] Like, you know, he’s trying to juggle everything. You know, I can tell he’s having so much fun with the card parties, but I wonder what’s going on with SPI.” And I remember I was on the phone with her walking through my house. I remember exactly where I was, and I said, “I wonder if Pat would sell me SPI. I, I would ta- I would love to take over.

[00:03:24] I love SPI.” And she was like, “Huh.” And then I was like, “Well, that was kind of ridiculous. I don’t know why I said that.” And she’s like, “No, no, I think that’s a good idea.” And we just kept talking about whatever, and the more I thought about it, the more I thought, yeah, you know, Pat and I have a very similar mission.

[00:03:43] We love early-stage entrepreneurs. We love, you know, just helping people make that first dollar and knowing that it’s real. And when I first started, in 2008 I was working at a gas station, and I was, I think, 20 years old. And, uh, so I started my entrepreneur journey in, uh, 2016, and he was releasing a book.

[00:04:07] Which one was it?

[00:04:08] Pat: Uh, Will It Fly?

[00:04:09] Liz: Yeah. Oh, yeah. And so I first heard of him because he was everywhere launching his book, and I thought, “Yeah, I like that guy,” and I followed him periodically here and there, and I’ve just always really resonated with his message. And so the more I thought about, oh, could I be the next person to take over SPI, the more I thought, “This just makes sense.”

[00:04:30] Pat: Yeah. I mean, you eventually became a guest on the show. I mean, before even this was a conversation- Right, yes … you, you were a guest on the show. Liz came on and just dropped some incredible knowledge about email specifically. Right. That’s what Liz is known for. And- That’s

[00:04:43] Nathan: what her Craft and Commerce keynote was about.

[00:04:45] Pat: Yes. Yes. I mean, Liz, Liz is amazing, and to have her come in and not just bring her email expertise into the world of SPI, but her community building. I mean, she has… How many members do you have in, in your community?

[00:04:56] Liz: Over 4,000 right now. Oh, wow. Yeah. It’s c- it’s crazy.

[00:05:00] Pat: Yeah, so you know what that, what, what that entails and how to bring people together, and I was even a guest on one of your community sort of gatherings, and I was so impressed with just how it, like, you knew everybody who was there and what they did.

[00:05:12] And I was like, “This is exactly what a person who I would want to take over SPI should have.” ‘Cause I’ve actually gotten offers before-

[00:05:20] Nathan: Yeah …

[00:05:20] Pat: for SPI. Um, three.

[00:05:22] Nathan: Okay.

[00:05:23] Pat: One of them was from another creator a while back, but they didn’t… It just didn’t, just didn’t mesh well. It didn’t make sense. But the other two were from venture capitalists who saw the brand, who saw us ranking really high for all these keywords, who saw the size of the email list and were like, “Dollar signs.”

[00:05:39] That’s worth

[00:05:39] Nathan: something.

[00:05:40] Pat: Yeah. And that was flattering, and the money would’ve been incredible, but I wouldn’t have been able to sleep at night ’cause I knew that they had no idea who this audience was and how to serve them better. And so that’s why I kinda tabled the idea of selling when it even was a thought, um, until Patricia came and was like, “Hey, Pat, like, Liz is c- interested in maybe buying SPI.

[00:06:03] Are you willing to sell?” I was like, “You know, I’ve thought about that before, but I, I… Maybe? I don’t know. Let’s, let’s talk and see what happens.” And then one thing led to another, multiple conversations, of course deal-making and all that stuff is a part of it, too, but it just made sense. It just made sense, especially with my calling into the Pokemon space and the things I wanna do there, and the events that I’ve been hosting.

[00:06:24] We just hosted 9,500 people in San Diego. That’s

[00:06:27] Nathan: so insane.

[00:06:27] Pat: We have two more events this year, and to be able to fully go into that, I mean, there’s so much that I wanna do and so many more ways that I can make an impact beyond SPI, I feel at this point.

[00:06:39] Nathan: Yeah, so I wanna dive into all that in a minute, but first, one of the things, Liz, where I feel like there’s some ideas that they’re not a thing until they’re verbalized, and then once they’re out in the universe, it’s like, “Oh, well, now we’ve all gotta…

[00:06:52] All right. That, that’s, like, an actual thing,” and, you know, what if I buy SPI is one of those things that you’re like, “Not an idea, not out there.” And then once, once you say it, you’re like, “All right

[00:07:01] Liz: Yeah, I, I tend to do that. I’ll just, I’ll just have ideas or, you know, something will come to me and I’ll just blurt it out loud, and I’m not the type of person that’s afraid to a- to make the ask.

[00:07:12] Right. I mean, the worst thing he could say is no, or the worst thing the bank could say is no, right? But it just, it just felt right. Like Pat mentioned, my community. I love these people so much. I love entrepreneurs. Like, I always say, and maybe this is a bit much, but like, “God strike me dead if I forget where I came from.”

[00:07:31] I mentioned my last job was at a gas station. My mom didn’t get past eighth grade. I … statistically, I shouldn’t be sitting here, you know, in Kit’s studios right now. Right. It’s, it’s insane. Um, and so I, I th- always think about that early stage person who is, you know, finding someone like Pat or me, or finding Kit and thinking, “Oh, may- maybe, maybe.”

[00:07:56] And I wanna be that person that says not maybe, yes. And so when I heard about, you know, Pat feeling stressed out, I was like, “I’ll, I’ll take it. It’s fine, it’s fine.” Uh, I would, I would love to help those people. I have such a freaking passion for it, and I just, like Pat, I feel so blessed. Yeah. Like, what an honor to be able to step into this bigger calling.

[00:08:19] Nathan: Well, so I think there’s so many things that creators are gonna be curious about. Uh, one is even, like, how do you, how do you sell a brand? Is it even sellable? And that’s probably something that you thought about a lot, Pat, of like, oh, if I … if it’s ever time to move on from SPI, like, could you even sell it?

[00:08:33] So I’m curious, how did you think about turning it into something that could be sold, um, and what went through your head of, like, that process?

[00:08:43] Pat: Yeah, I mean, there’s a book out there called Built to Sell. A lot of us know about it, and it’s this idea of whether or not you are going to sell, to structure your business in a way that you could, such that you could remove yourself from the process if something were to happen to you.

[00:08:56] That was the thing that was most on my mind as I’m in my 40s now. It’s like, hey, I’m getting older. We don’t know if tomorrow’s gonna come, but I wanna make sure that this business and my family and the audience are all taken care of. So- With the way that it used to be back in the mid-2010s, something happened to me, the brand is done.

[00:09:16] Nathan: Right. Right. It’s effectively a j- you know, a job and a salary in that sense that, like, it requires your time entirely.

[00:09:23] Pat: Right, right. And although there were passive opportunities there, you know, create things once and have it sell over and over again and, you know, nurture sequences that are automated and all this stuff, like, if I were to go, you know, it would still run for a bit because, you know, we build- Yeah

[00:09:37] the business in a automated fashion. But, you know, it was very much tied to w- to me. I mean, Smart Passive Income was synonymous with Pat Flynn. Always was. Until 2020. The interesting th- thing that happened in 2019 was I hosted a live event in San Diego for 500 entrepreneurs, and it was called FlynnCon.

[00:09:57] People were like, “Dang, you’re so self-centered, like, you named it after yourself.” And I was like, “Well,” the audience called themselves Team Flynn-

[00:10:04] Nathan: Right …

[00:10:05] Pat: because they wanted to be on the, this side of the internet and, and so here’s FlynnCon. Now that I think about it, we probably could have called it something better, but anyway.

[00:10:12] The whole purpose of that was to bring people together, the community, having everybody meet each other for the first time, similar to why you do Craft and Commerce. And it was a massive success. I mean, it was one of the most fulfilling times of my life. And then 2020 happened. COVID, everything shut down.

[00:10:26] Getting together in person was impossible. And I craved that connection so much, but not just connection from me to my audience, but the connection that I knew I could create audience to audience When I ran a survey about FlynnCon, the number one thing people said that they enjoyed the most was the time in between all the talks.

[00:10:45] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:10:46] Pat: The time in between all the activities. I was like, “Oh, if I could do it all over again, I would just have nothing on the schedule and just put you all in the same room, and it’d be, you’d be fine.” Right?

[00:10:54] Nathan: You, you need, like, just enough structure to bring everyone together-

[00:10:57] Pat: Right …

[00:10:58] Nathan: and to give them, like, purpose for conversations and whatever else.

[00:11:01] But then it’s like, yeah, just have-

[00:11:02] Pat: But the things that were most stressful were booking the speakers and all the activities, and all a sudden, I was like, “Oh, I just need to put people together in a room.” And I, of course, couldn’t do that during COVID, but I could bring people together virtually, so that’s when the SPI community launched, uh, it was called SPI Pro back then, in July of 2020.

[00:11:20] Uh, we’re coming up to our six-year anniversary now, which is pretty cool. Yay. Uh, but it’s gone through many changes, but the one thing that hasn’t changed is just how much the community comes for each other. Because I wasn’t even very present in the community. Like, it wasn’t centered around me.

[00:11:34] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:11:35] Pat: It was centered around the, uh, values that we share and the goals that the audience had.

[00:11:41] Uh, the early stage entrepreneurs and those who were kind of starting to see some success, who wanted to scale and grow, but do it in a smart way and learn from each other. Almost like Mastermind, but amplified.

[00:11:51] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:11:52] Pat: And if we could come in and facilitate those interactions, then we would have something that could live beyond me.

[00:11:58] And one person I think about when I think about this kind of level of community is Scott Dinsmore.

[00:12:02] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:12:03] Pat: Rest in peace, my friend. Uh, Live Your Legend, I don’t know if you knew who Scott was, but he had a brand called Live Your, uh, Live Your Legend, and he had set up these communities that were almost like satellite communities in different cities all around the world.

[00:12:15] And he had-

[00:12:16] Nathan: And this was in, like, 2012.

[00:12:18] Pat: Early 2010s. Yeah.

[00:12:19] Nathan: Yeah, like-

[00:12:20] Pat: He

[00:12:21] Nathan: was- I mean, I met him in, in 2012, and then in 2013. One of my favorite Scott Dinsmore memories is, uh, being in Portland, and we were walking down the street, probably like 10:00 PM, and the drivers in Portland are, like, the nicest. Like, I remember being in London, and, you know, you look across the street, and the, the drivers in London are like, “Yeah, yeah, cross the street.

[00:12:39] I dare you. See what happens.” In Portland, like, four lanes of traffic start, stops. Like, “Oh, did you wanna cross?” And Scott, like, looks over, does a handstand, and then walks across the street on his hands. Oh, how fun. And that’s just, like, Scott. That’s-

[00:12:50] Pat: Yeah …

[00:12:51] Nathan: who he was, uh.

[00:12:51] Pat: I mean, he was adventurous, he was kind, and he had brought this community together.

[00:12:57] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:12:57] Pat: And these communities would meet with each other without Scott there.

[00:13:00] Nathan: Right.

[00:13:00] Pat: Because they all shared the same values and the love- Mm-hmm … for what he was building. And then he tragically passed away in a hiking accident.

[00:13:07] Nathan: Yep, on Kilimanjaro.

[00:13:08] Pat: Um-

[00:13:09] Nathan: Wow …

[00:13:09] Pat: which was just the worst thing ever.

[00:13:11] Nathan: Tragedy.

[00:13:12] Pat: But the community came together to support him and his family, and they still meet with each other.

[00:13:18] And that is living the- Like more

[00:13:19] Nathan: than a decade later. More than

[00:13:20] Pat: a decade later. Mm-hmm. And that was so inspiring to me, and that was very much inspira- inspiration for me as I thought about, well, what could it be like if I ha- uh, sell SPI and, you know, uh-

[00:13:31] Nathan: Or could you build something that’s bigger than you, bigger than your brand, and doesn’t re- doesn’t rely on you being there and every part of it?

[00:13:37] Pat: Right. Right. Mm-hmm. Um, and of course, when the community came about, that offered me a little bit more time back because, again, it wasn’t centered around me. Um, then I had time to explore, and I explored the space of Pokemon. I talked about that the last time I was on your show, and how big it has gotten.

[00:13:53] It’s gotten even bigger.

[00:13:55] Nathan: Yeah. What are some of the numbers that we’re getting?

[00:13:57] Pat: Oh. ‘

[00:13:57] Nathan: Cause it’s, it’s gotten completely absurd.

[00:13:59] Pat: Yeah, the long form channel, Deep Pocket Monster, is seeing, uh, we’re at 2.3 million subscribers and growing faster than ever. Every time we create a new video it hits about a million views in two days, and these are long form videos that are- Oh, yeah

[00:14:14] about an hour in length.

[00:14:16] Nathan: Right, and people are watching it like d- they’re primarily watched on TVs, right? Like-

[00:14:19] Pat: They’re watching on television. People are- 65% of our audience are watching on TVs … sitting in

[00:14:22] Nathan: their living rooms with their families, like-

[00:14:24] Pat: Eating dinner. Yep. Just opening packs with me on screen.

[00:14:28] Th- those kinds of things.

[00:14:28] Liz: Right, we’re talking Pokemon, in case you missed that.

[00:14:32] Pat: Yes. Um, I go live every Monday, and I go live for two hours and I’m opening packs and doing these giveaways. Uh, we are, we are seeing anywhere between 8 to 12,000 people concurrently watching live during those two hours, and it just is continuing to grow.

[00:14:50] Nathan: And you have the shorts channel as well,

[00:14:51] Pat: which is- And we have the shorts channel, which is seeing about 10 to 12 million views a day. And we are approaching two years of a 60-second short form video being published every day.

[00:15:01] Nathan: Wow.

[00:15:01] Pat: We’re approaching two years now. Uh, we’re closing in on episode 700.

[00:15:05] Liz: Wow.

[00:15:06] Pat: And that has gotten me access to the biggest brand deals of my life.

[00:15:10] That has gotten me into the world of celebrities and artists and musicians and athletes who now follow- Right … my channel and wanna open packs with me. And I’m like, “What the heck?” Kike Hernandez is like- … in my DMs from the World Series champion Dodgers. Yeah. And he’s like, “Yo, let’s, let’s hang out.” I’m like, “What is happening here?

[00:15:29] This is crazy.” And you’re

[00:15:30] Nathan: in football stadium.

[00:15:32] Pat: The Detroit Lions invited me out. There’s gonna be something going on between, uh, us and the 49ers. George Kittle’s a big Pokemon fan. He’s a big Dragonite fan. It’s like, what is happening here?

[00:15:43] Liz: I think it’s really goes back to what you said about values. Like, what I’m hearing is, you know, over at SPI, you put so much work in.

[00:15:52] 2008, you know, so much work. And then you said, “Okay, well, now we’ve got this foundation. Let’s talk to each other. Let’s build this community.” And that’s what you’re doing over there. Going live for two hours, that takes a lot of blood, sweat, and tears. Yeah. Like, even if you’re just opening packs, like, you obviously love your audience so much, and that was what attracted me to SPI and to saying like, “Yeah, I’ll step up to the plate.

[00:16:17] I wanna pour in the way that you’re p- you’ve poured in for 18 years,” and now you’re doing that over there. Like, it’s just such strong values, and I think to Nathan’s original question of, like, how do you get somebody from a personal brand, how do you step back, it’s really lined in those values. Mm. And that was one of our very first conversations.

[00:16:38] I said, “Where is your mission statement? Where is your vision?” Right. “And where are your values? Because I wanna read those over. I wanna make sure that’s in alignment, and that’s something that I can take over.”

[00:16:50] Nathan: Liz, I love that you’re talking about values when you’re both wearing, like, OG- Oh, yeah. … Kid- Kid shirts that have- That was so funny when we gave you those

[00:16:57] default to generosity, create every day, like, the values that we preach so often, m- you know, many of which, you know, Pat, you shaped over the last decade or so- Thank you for saying that …

[00:17:04] Pat: as an advisor. I mean, it’s so, it’s so true, though. The values and the mission, they are just so completely aligned here.

[00:17:09] My biggest worry with all of this was the audience at SPI feeling like I abandoned them.

[00:17:15] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:17:15] Pat: Right. That was, that is my biggest worry. Mm. Um, and I knew that there are always gonna be people who are s- are gonna be, uh, upset or sad by that, for sure. There are people who I’ve told, though, who are like, “Oh, we knew this was gonna happen eventually.”

[00:17:31] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:17:31] Pat: Like, they could just feel it and see it. Yeah. And, and they see the joy that I have with Po- it, like, I feel like I am SPI 2008- In the world of Pokemon right now. Right. Where I’m moving fast, I’m playing, I’m just being curious, and it’s like-

[00:17:46] Liz: Right. Look at his face. It’s completely changed. That’s what we want.

[00:17:50] Pat: But I still love SPI. I mean, it’s, it’s like- Yeah, of course … that’s my baby, you know? And my baby’s 18 now. Yep. Literally 18. Literally 18. And he had another

[00:18:01] baby. Go off to college. Yeah. But I can s- I wanna say this to you, Liz. Thank you for helping me feel like I’m not abandoning them.

[00:18:08] Liz: Aw. Of course. This couch is

[00:18:12] Pat: weird. I was like, there’s a 50% chance I’m gonna cry on this podcast. Uh.

[00:18:15] Nathan: I mean, th- there’s so much that I wanna get into in that, of the how do you take care of the audience?

[00:18:21] How do you take care … Audience is the wrong word. How do you take care of the community through a transition like this? We all have friends who have sold businesses. Right. You both have sold multiple businesses.

[00:18:29] Pat: Yeah.

[00:18:30] Nathan: That’s the most important thing. Like, you’ve poured 18 years of, of- My life … you know, care and love into- Love

[00:18:37] this community. Yeah. Like, tomorrow we’re gonna be at Craft and Commerce. There’s gonna be 450 creators there, and dozens, if not 100, can trace some aspect of their inspiration, uh, strategies, tactics, success, back to SPI in some way, right?

[00:18:55] Liz: Absolutely.

[00:18:56] Nathan: And so-

[00:18:57] Pat: That’s crazy.

[00:18:58] Liz: It is.

[00:18:59] Nathan: Like, the impact is just- Yeah

[00:19:00] huge. But a- and so, like, you know, sitting with the juxtaposition between that level of impact and the amount of time invested and everything else, and then, like, the opportunity and what you have in front of you and, like, how much the Pokemon world lights you up, it’s, it’s … Like, it’s such an interesting tension.

[00:19:16] Pat: It

[00:19:17] Nathan: i- it is. And I see it so much of, like, oh, you have to let go of the one in order to fully go all in.

[00:19:22] Pat: I’m very lucky that I can let go and be confident that-

[00:19:25] Nathan: Yeah …

[00:19:26] Pat: because of Liz and because the team, because of the way we shaped SPI over the years to not be just centered around me now- Mm-hmm … that it will thrive.

[00:19:35] I mean, it … H- here’s how maybe we can go into a little bit of the announcement structure and stuff. You’re hearing this maybe for the first time. We had this transaction happen in April of 2026.

[00:19:47] Nathan: Yep, and we’re, we’re recording this in June, airing it in September.

[00:19:50] Pat: In September, yes. And our audience won’t really hear about this publicly until right around now, September.

[00:19:57] Um, maybe later you’re watching this. But September- Surprise. So September 2026. So one way we could have gone about this is in April when the transaction happened, I could have made an announcement, “Hey, guys. Big news. I sold the company. Liz is gonna take great care of you.”

[00:20:13] Nathan: Yep. “Here she is.” She’s amazing, all of that.

[00:20:15] Yes, and she is. I’ll still be on as an advisor. Right.

[00:20:17] Pat: Right,

[00:20:17] Nathan: something like that.

[00:20:17] Pat: Right. And I’m not gonna be completely gone. Right. You know, I’m still gonna be around and I’m, and help and of course, like you said, advise. Um, but I know exactly what would happen if that’s the way we did it. Um, people would make up stories in their mind about, well, how the community’s gonna go.

[00:20:33] Like, it’s, “Oh, there it goes. Pat’s gone. It’s gonna be bad. And, uh, you know, um, I don’t know who Liz is. I can’t trust her. How do I know that what she’s putting into this is gonna work?” And the truth is, we had this transaction, and we had a plan for me to cons- continue to stay on, even though I’ve sold the company at this point in June.

[00:20:51] Nathan: Right.

[00:20:51] Pat: I’m still writing emails. I’m still involved, and we’re still recording podcast episodes. But it’s kind of like we’re starting to teeter the seesaw to the other side. Yeah. To your side now a little bit. But the big overarching story is, let’s have Liz come in. She’s gonna come in as director of community to start, which means she’s gonna be front facing into the brand alongside me, and we’re gonna inject a lot of her ideas.

[00:21:14] Mm-hmm. I also wanted Liz to have control early. Right. Not be like, “Hey, this is how you have to do it.” Like, let’s, “Liz, what are some ideas you have?” And we could probably get into that as well. No presh.

[00:21:22] Liz: No presh.

[00:21:24] Pat: And you were up to the challenge. And even though it’s been only a couple months now, the size of the community, for one, has nearly doubled.

[00:21:32] Yes. Because of, number one, your email expertise. It’s working. Uh, but number two, the new life that has been injected, Liz’s energy injected into the community, it feels like it’s day one again. And so we can say now, like, “Oh, you didn’t think it was gonna work?” Well, it has been working. Right. Already. She’s proven herself, and it’s amazing.

[00:21:52] And again, some people are gonna be like, “Well, I was here for you, Pat, so I’m out,” and that’s totally fine.

[00:21:56] Liz: Yeah, of course.

[00:21:57] Pat: But some people are gonna be like, “Oh my gosh, I was here for Pat, but I’m staying for Liz.”

[00:22:02] Liz: All right.

[00:22:03] Pat: And everybody that Liz brings in and how she and the team manages. That’s, that’s the story we wanted to tell, and we’ve been getting into…

[00:22:10] That, that’s what we’re in the middle of right now.

[00:22:12] Liz: Yeah. I love that you said this is day one because when I bought the company, it was April 1st. You know, day one. What a joke. Yeah, yeah, and I also-

[00:22:22] Nathan: Just kidding. Yeah, exactly. Could you imagine if you announced it on

[00:22:24] Liz: April 1st? L-O-L. Oh my

[00:22:25] Nathan: gosh. April Fools’ Day.

[00:22:26] Liz: Dude, we should have. That’s a missed opportunity. Would not have been a good idea. L-O-L-J-K. It would’ve been funny. Pat Stoller.

[00:22:31] Nathan: But not a good idea.

[00:22:32] Liz: Right. But every day I’ve been waking up and going, you know, to work with SPI and the team and the community and the people, and I’ve thought, “Today is day one.

[00:22:43] Today is day one,” every single day. Even this morning. Today is day one. And that’s just… I love that you said that. Mm. ‘Cause that’s how I’ve been thinking of it because today is day one. I mean, you’re hearing this for the first time. It’s day one for me, and it’s gonna be day one always. And I think it’s day one even for our audience.

[00:23:00] Every day you’ve gotta wake up, and you gotta make the decision to be an entrepreneur, to pursue those efforts. Right. Right? Like, Pat, 20- or 2008, right? You don’t get to 2026 and beyond without choosing every day. Like, today is day one. Today is day one. So I love that. Thank you. Create

[00:23:19] Pat: every day.

[00:23:20] Liz: Amen.

[00:23:21] Pat: It’s not about creating every day.

[00:23:22] It’s you get to decide how you want your day to be. That’s, that’s what, how I always read this. Yeah. Love that. Um, one thing I wanna share going back to the Pokemon thing and the why. You know, a lot of people see it, they’re like, “Oh, you’re like 40 years old, you’re a grown man with a beard playing with cardboard.

[00:23:41] You’re, this is a kids game.” Um, that’s why it started. But there’s a lot of people who were kids who are now adults and have kids who are using Pokemon as a way to bond with their children today, to get them off of devices, and that’s really important to me. I’ve always wanted to, and I’ve mentioned this on podcasts in the past, I’ve always wanted to have some agency to help change how kids are educated and how kids are growing up in this crazy world.

[00:24:07] I mean, I have two kids myself, and I’ve seen what Pokemon has done for us to bring the kids in closer with, with my wife and I. They’re even now in the videos. They are on stage at Card Party and all this stuff. It’s been so fun. But there is so much more meaning to Pokemon than just the cards. Um, there’s a reason why when I named the channel, it’s Deep Pocket Monsters, not just deep pockets for money.

[00:24:28] It’s, we’re getting deep into who we are as people and connection. Mm-hmm. And Pokemon brings people from all walks of life, all ages, all backgrounds together, and it’s like we can all… Like, if, if you’re wearing a Pokemon thing on your shirt or backpack, I immediately can connect with you because we can talk about which Pokemon we like or which cards we collect.

[00:24:48] I mean, that’s, that’s what we do at Card Party. That’s what I’m doing on my channel. But I am, uh, very similar to SPI in the early days. In, in SPI in the early days, I would get handwritten letters and notes, and I still get some every once in a while, but from people who told me how much of an impact SPI has made on their lives.

[00:25:05] They’ve been able to now go on a vacation that they’ve never been able to because they’ve generated more revenue. They quit their jobs, and they were able to spend more time with their family. Like, all these really heartfelt things. There’s been a few people who have been able to achieve lifelong goals as a result of listening to the SPI podcast, and I hear about that, and it just makes me so happy, and I expect more of that with Liz’s credit now.

[00:25:27] But in the Pokemon space, I’m seeing even more of that. On the live stream yesterday on the channel, a woman shared in, in a super chat that her son, who is autistic, who doesn’t talk, the only time he talks is when he watches Deep Pocket Monster.

[00:25:42] Liz: Oh my gosh.

[00:25:43] Nathan: That’s amazing.

[00:25:44] Pat: It’s in… It’s just like, what is happening, right?

[00:25:46] Wow. Now

[00:25:46] Nathan: we’re all gonna start crying.

[00:25:48] Liz: Right.

[00:25:49] Pat: I’ve gotten personal messages from people who say that they decided to stay on this earth because of the community that we’ve be- we’ve been able to bring together. Um, because they feel bullied, they feel left out. But in the Pokémon space, they feel a sense of belonging.

[00:26:04] That’s why the, this is gonna sound weird, but the, the mascot of the channel, if you will, is a Pokémon called Miltank. It’s a cow. Its special power is it just makes milk. It’s like, who cares?

[00:26:16] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:26:17] Pat: And I chose that as the mascot because it doesn’t breathe fire, it doesn’t shoot water cannons, it doesn’t have any of these special abilities.

[00:26:24] It’s just a cow. And in life, a lot of us feel like we are not special, that everybody else has all these cool things that they can do. But the channel, Deep Pocket Monster, and the community that we’ve created is the space that welcomes everybody. Because even if you just make milk, even if you’re just a cow, um, you’re special.

[00:26:44] You are unique and you belong. Um, and man, like at the end of card party, every card party, I stay till the very end and I sign as many autographs un- until the last person’s done. Usually I’m there for four or five hours straight. At the very end of the event and people pour their hearts out. It’s crazy.

[00:27:03] This This is gonna be maybe the first time a lot of you are hearing this, but I have been told a lot that I am the MrBeast of the Pokemon space. Yeah.

[00:27:15] Liz: Right.

[00:27:16] Pat: And I’m like, “No, I don’t wanna be the MrBeast.” ‘Cause MrBeast, as great as he is, it’s gotten to a level where it’s all about the money and the spectacle and the craziness, his little Squid Game stuff.

[00:27:29] Like again, incredible creator. I’m inspired But I wanna be a different mister. I wanna be Mr. Rogers.

[00:27:38] Liz: Yes.

[00:27:39] Pat: I wanna be this generation’s Mr. Rogers. And whether that’s through Pokemon or maybe Pokemon evolves, pun intended, into something else, I feel like I have this unique ability with the experiences that I’ve had, with the resources that I’ve been given, the opportunities I’ve been given, and the people I surround myself with, to bring back a lot of the values that Mr.

[00:27:57] Rogers had. He had a boring TV show, but we all loved it and watched it and learned from it, and right now, I think the world needs it. So that’s what Liz is allowing me to do. That’s what the SPI community’s allowed me to do, and it’s taught me to do, to take these things that I’ve learned to even deeper levels here.

[00:28:19] Um, so yeah, Mr.

[00:28:21] Nathan: Rogers. That’s amazing. I think there’s so much of the, the sense of belonging that SPI created for entrepreneurs of like, oh, there’s people out there who are trying to do things that I’m only just now learning are possible, and live in this different way, and make money online, and- Yeah,

[00:28:35] Pat: we were the crazy ones back then.

[00:28:37] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:28:37] Pat: You know?

[00:28:38] Nathan: And now creating that at, at a much larger scale.

[00:28:40] Liz: Yeah, I love this. Pat just shared a bunch of stories about, oh, so and so told me this, told me that, and this is why I wanna, you know, wanted to, you know, continue SPI because creators are so important. You know, Pat’s work has been so important for tens of thousands of people, if not millions, right?

[00:29:02] You know, I added up his YouTube channel the other day. As of June, it was like 5.5 million across his three channels, right? That’s a lot of impact, and that’s what I want for the SPI audience. You know, maybe we don’t ever get to Pat Flynn level, right? Maybe you don’t even get to Liz Wilcox level, right? But your work matters.

[00:29:23] Creators matter so much, even to that one guy that watches every time you go live, or that one lady that replies to every single email or shows up to, you know, just hearts your Instagram every single time. You matter to that person so much, and I want to help you keep going the same way, you know, he wants to re-instill values and help those people have that sense of belonging.

[00:29:49] And I just, I feel the same way. Like, I feel so blessed to carry on that work.

[00:29:55] Pat: This conversation would’ve been very different with a venture capitalist who would’ve

[00:30:00] Liz: been like- Oh, right. I could imagine. Oh my gosh. Got the email list. Bye. So

[00:30:03] Nathan: the thing that I’m most curious about is as an entrepreneur, when you w- or anyone who’s invested so much to build something, but then you feel your calling in a different place Like often you, you know, you have to let go of one to go all in on the other.

[00:30:22] I don’t know. I, I think I’ve heard you talk about, use an example of… Is it talk, do you talk, talk about Tarzan swinging between vines? Have you given that example?

[00:30:29] Pat: No, mine was the ladders. Ladders. The ladders ex- it’s similar, right?

[00:30:33] Nathan: You, but you have to let go of one to fully go-

[00:30:34] Pat: Right. If you try to climb two ladders at the same time, it’s ridiculous.

[00:30:37] You

[00:30:37] Nathan: can’t do it.

[00:30:38] Pat: It’s so inefficient, and you can’t climb that high. But if you fully let go of one, then you can grip and, and rip essentially.

[00:30:45] Nathan: So, but how do you know?

[00:30:47] Pat: You don’t. You don’t… There’s, there’s no… I- in my life, every time there’s been something huge and incredible, it wasn’t because the time was right.

[00:30:56] It was because I just decided that this was the time. You know, from when I bought my first house with my wife to when we had kids, to selling the business, right? Like, there are so many things on paper that would’ve said, like, “This is not the right thing to do.” Um, but there’s also so many things in my heart that say, “It is the right thing to do.”

[00:31:15] And I think when it t- when it comes to let go, letting go, you know, my son is 16, my daughter’s 13. Eventually, I’m gonna have to take this thing that I love and let go. It doesn’t mean I’m no longer a part of their lives. I am them. They are me, and so they carry on the legacy, right? And SPI is a kid, my first kid, I guess you could say.

[00:31:39] It had its infancy, and then it had its teenager years, and now it’s maturing, but I know that Liz is not going to just completely dismantle it. I think she will improve it. She will add her own spin on things, but it’s always gonna be with some SPI DNA within it. Um, that’s why you just can’t sell to anybody.

[00:32:05] Nathan: Right.

[00:32:05] Pat: And I, I got so lucky. Dude, I got so lucky, and it’s all happening so fast. But that’s how you be okay with letting go because you know that, at least you know in your heart that they’re gonna be taken care of, um, the audience, the community. I’ve had many conversations with community members who were sad but also stoked.

[00:32:26] Stoked for me, stoked for the future of SPI and, you know, even the team. The team has seen new life as a result of having Liz come on. I think every once in a while you need a big change. You know, you need to, you need to swing big or else y- you’ll either just be complacent or get bored or, or something.

[00:32:45] Liz: Yeah, I think it comes back to what we’ve been saying about callings, right? Really learning how to hear that calling. You know, I’ve sold a personal brand as well. I w- used it. I… Y’all, I started as an RV travel blogger. I didn’t even have internet on my phone when I started in 2016. It’s actually feels like a miracle to be sitting here.

[00:33:06] It’s like, “Wait, what?” Um, but it’s, it’s that calling when I knew, okay, this RV travel thing, it’s gotten me to here, but it, it’s not gonna get me to the next thing. It’s not my forever home or, you know, maybe it’s my baby, but my baby has to go to college now, and I’ve got to let go. And just listening to that calling, and the same thing when I was hearing my sister talk about, “Oh, you know, Pat’s got two ladders right now.”

[00:33:34] I was like, “Oh, well, tell him to throw it at me.” Like, I- I’ll take one … I’ve gotta… It was that, it was just that hearing my calling. Yes, I’ve been, I’ve been at… It’s so weird. I’ve, literally, I was driving one day and I thought, “I just, I feel kind of stuck. I feel like, you know, I, I wanna get to the next level, but I’m not sure what the, what that looks like, how to, how to get to the next level.”

[00:33:56] And I thought, “Where’s my teleportation machine? I would just like to move on from this level that I’m at.” And within days, you know, my sister brought up SPI, and I said, “There, there’s my time-” There it is. “There’s my DeLorean.” Mm, yeah. And, uh, I just, you know, I had to take that shot. I had to listen to my gut.

[00:34:14] I had to know, yes, my calling is to help those creators so that they can have Pat Flynn stories, right? They can have those stories of, “Oh, this helped my son. This helped me. This helped my family.” You know, that lights me up like no other. And so I think it really is just knowing or getting to know what your calling is.

[00:34:34] Pat: Like Moana, just go to, go into the ocean.

[00:34:37] Nathan: That’s right.

[00:34:38] Pat: Yeah. When the wind- We’re voyagers … in your sea. Yes, we are voyagers. We’re voyagers. Honestly.

[00:34:42] Nathan: So, okay, let- let’s go really tactical. I think a lot of people listening would be like, are wondering, like, okay, how do you even- price and structure a deal like this?

[00:34:51] Pat: Yeah. There’s a number of different ways to do it, right? In fact, one of the things that was interesting about my conversations with venture capitalists is if we were to hit certain benchmarks- Mm … like if we get to X million dollars a year, then the multiple that they would pay would be that much higher.

[00:35:10] Like, the difference between a 2 to 3X multiple and a 10 to 20X multiple, and it’s just like The, we’re just talking numbers now, and it’s like, is that because you see now how much more money you can get back by squeezing this out of the audience? Like, that doesn’t feel good to me. And it’s like, I don’t need that- There’d

[00:35:29] Nathan: be an earn-out with it

[00:35:30] Pat: earn-out. Yeah, right. Typically, it’s some multiple of, you know, annual revenue, and that multiple’s… I mean, this is where the negotiations happen and what it looks like. And if, you know, we’re on, like, a payment plan, right? So it, it wasn’t all, like, cash up front. Some cash up front, but then over a period of time.

[00:35:48] And, you know, it would be more if it was longer or less if it’s shorter, that kind of thing. And to me, I was just like, this is Matt Gartland’s realm, is the finances and stuff. Yeah. He, this wouldn’t have happened without him. Shout out to Matt, by the way. Shout out,

[00:36:01] Liz: Matt.

[00:36:01] Pat: Uh, he really helped both of us actually understand.

[00:36:05] Matt is, was a small owner of SPI, so he got some out of this as well. But he very much put in the work to help us both wrap our heads around- Yep … the financial part of this. Design how to sell the business. Design, yeah. And I know you have familiarity with that as well.

[00:36:19] Liz: I’m just a creator.

[00:36:21] Pat: That’s why I was like, I just want everybody to be happy, and I wanna create- Yeah,

[00:36:24] Liz: I felt the same way.

[00:36:25] Pat: And so, you know, maybe I could have asked for, for more. Maybe, maybe a-

[00:36:30] Liz: Maybe I could have low-balled you … right. I don’t know.

[00:36:33] Nathan: So h- when you actually get to this point of like, “Hey, I wanna buy this thing-

[00:36:37] Liz: Yeah …

[00:36:38] Nathan: and I’m open to selling it,” right? You have this, this back and forth, and it’s like, “Okay, so where do we go from here?”

[00:36:45] Pat: Yeah.

[00:36:45] Nathan: Did, did one of you throw out a number

[00:36:46] Pat: or- Matt started with a number.

[00:36:47] Nathan: Matt

[00:36:48] Pat: started with a number. Based on a multiple. He’s had experiences selling businesses before, too, and so he came to me. He’s like, with his spreadsheets.

[00:36:54] Liz: He sen- yeah, he sent me a Loom with a spreadsheet.

[00:36:56] Pat: Oh, gosh, the spread- Matt’s spreadsheets.

[00:36:58] He’s such a- We love them … he’s, he’s good in the sheets- We love them …

[00:37:01] Liz: uh, as they say. Yes.

[00:37:02] Pat: Um. Sorry.

[00:37:05] Liz: He’s gonna die laughing.

[00:37:06] Pat: Yeah, he will.

[00:37:07] Nathan: He would love that.

[00:37:07] Pat: I was like, “Yeah, that sounds fair. You know, that sounds fair.” And we shared that with Liz, and-

[00:37:12] Liz: And I said the same thing. I said, “Okay.” Yeah.

[00:37:15] Nathan: So Matt threw out a number, and you both said, “That sounds fair.”

[00:37:18] Liz: Yeah. Honestly, it was pretty… I mean, that was the simplest part, I think, really. I think the most questions I had were, again, about the mission, were, you know, “Pat, what, how would you describe SPI? You know, what’s the team like? You know, what w- what would you like to see for the next one, five, 10 years of SPI?

[00:37:39] You know, why do you think I’m the right person?” And, you know, th- that was what I was most interested in because I wanna see it keep going. I want, of course, if I’m buying it, number one, financially, it’s got to work. Right. Uh, but really, you know, I, I wanted it to work, and I didn’t wanna come in and- rock the boat.

[00:37:59] Of course, you know, if you Google me, you’ll be like, “Whoa, this chick is really toned down in this interview,” but my values are still there. You know, I wanna make sure the audience and the people that have, you know, worked with Pat and followed Pat for so long know that they’re in good hands. And so that was the m- majority of our negotiations, was just getting to know-

[00:38:20] Pat: Yeah

[00:38:21] Liz: where Pat’s head was at with the community, with the audience, making sure it was the right creator. The creators I was thinking of that I wanna serve, that was the most important part. The, the money, like, I always joke, like, I’m, I wanna put the I back in SPI. Like, I love money, y’all. I really do. Um, and I wanna help people make, make it, but as far as the sale went, it was more about making sure I could be the right person, ’cause that’s very important.

[00:38:53] Pat: It was an interview on both sides- Yeah … to make sure it was the right fit. I mean, that’s, that was where a majority of the time was spent. It was less about the numbers and the nuances of that, which I don’t know if that’s unique.

[00:39:06] Nathan: I think it is, though I’ve seen more people, people that I really respect, uh, do things like this.

[00:39:11] Like, when we were putting together a secondary round for Kit, it actually was pitched by Dharmesh Shah, the CTO of HubSpot, who’s been a longtime friend. I don’t know him really well, but, uh, you know, I think I first met him in 2013 or something. And he, he had reached out and said, “Hey, if there’s ever Kit team members that wanna sell, I’d be open to buying shares.”

[00:39:30] And so now it was up to me kind of as the steward of the transaction, you know, I wasn’t even selling any of my shares at that time, but, um, you know, I was like, “What should we set for the valuation?” He’s like, “You know what? I, I don’t really wanna negotiate. You pick, and I’ll either just say yes or no.” And it was such an interesting problem, one, as a negotiation tactic, c- ’cause you’re like, “Oh-

[00:39:50] Liz: What’s he doing here?

[00:39:51] Nathan: if I say something- Dang, he’s

[00:39:53] Pat: good. …

[00:39:53] Nathan: if I say something too high, he’s like, “Oh, no thanks. It’s not a good fit.” You know? But it really gets you to think, like, okay, what is fair? And I’ve heard of other people doing this where they’re just like, “Hey, throw out what, what you think is fair, and if I generally agree that that’s fair too, then, like, great.”

[00:40:07] Because we’re trying to optimize for the long-term, optimize for the relationship, the community, all of those things, and so long as we’re within, generally within the ballpark, then great. Yeah. I’ll move on.

[00:40:16] Pat: Yeah.

[00:40:16] Nathan: Um, ’cause

[00:40:17] Liz: what- Yeah. Well, I don’t, I don’t know if you, if you wanna cut this, but I will say there wa- the structure of it was the faster I pay it off, the less money-

[00:40:26] Nathan: Uh-huh

[00:40:26] Liz: it is. So- Time value

[00:40:27] Nathan: of money.

[00:40:28] Liz: Yeah. So I took a two-year deal. I was thinking three years, but then I said, “You know what, Liz? Every time you bet on yourself, you win, so let’s go for two.”

[00:40:38] Pat: With a lump sum up front-

[00:40:41] Liz: Yeah …

[00:40:42] Pat: and then quarterly for two years. Second payment’s coming up, Liz.

[00:40:46] Liz: I

[00:40:48] Nathan: know. Is that a July 1st this

[00:40:50] Liz: year?

[00:40:50] Uh, yes, July 1st.

[00:40:51] Pat: Well, honestly, it’s like, it’s, it’s, “Yay, I made money”, but it’s like I don’t even think about that.

[00:40:56] Nathan: Right.

[00:40:57] Pat: It’s I wanna make sure everybody’s taken care of. We wanna make sure we do right by what SPI’s done for me. I don’t discount that at all. And I am ready to move on to the next stage.

[00:41:08] Nathan: Right.

[00:41:09] Pat: And I’ve already started investing into that, um, thanks to some of the money coming in. Yeah. Like, I recently… This might be the first time some people are hearing about this too, but I recently bought a building. Didn’t lease it, I bought it. A-

[00:41:23] Nathan: I’ve seen the building. It’s pretty epic.

[00:41:24] Pat: Oh, thank you.

[00:41:25] It’s

[00:41:25] Liz: awesome.

[00:41:26] Pat: We have 8,000 square feet-

[00:41:28] Nathan: It’s so big. …

[00:41:29] Pat: uh, to build a, a film studio that I will be live streaming out of and filming out of. And, um, you know, having a, a group of people in there who are a part of the team to essentially tell the best stories that we can. That’s what we’re leaning into, is the storytelling.

[00:41:48] And, you know, part of our long-term vision, we have, we have some plans to do some amazing things with the studio. We wanna build a podcasting, um, space in there with these now connections I have with celebrities and athletes. Yeah. So if you’ve heard of Hot Ones with Sean Evans, where they’re eating hot wings and they get progressively hotter.

[00:42:05] Imagine that, but instead of wings, it’s packs of cards. Maybe it’s sports cards. We can maybe pull themselves out of the pack. Um, but there’s so many celebrities now that are coming out and saying, “Oh yeah, I’ve, I open Pokemon. I, I have s- I, I have a collection too.” Tom Brady started his own-

[00:42:21] Nathan: Yeah, we do a bunch of work with Tom Brady, and he’s…

[00:42:23] I mean, he’s opening physical retail stores-

[00:42:25] Pat: Yes … around cards. For collectibles. What?

[00:42:27] Liz: Wow.

[00:42:27] Pat: Um, and then Gary Vee already being in the collectible space- Oh, yeah … having his own trading card collectible. He and I are friends. There’s so many opportunities now to build the Hot Ones, but with Pokemon packs, which would just open up, again, new opportunities, new ad revenue, et cetera.

[00:42:46] I’m very inspired right now by a lot of YouTubers who are making legit Hollywood movies. Um, a 20-year-old directed The Backrooms. I don’t know if you knew that.

[00:42:57] Nathan: I haven’t seen that.

[00:42:57] Pat: He was a YouTuber. He has, um, I don’t know, made over $100 million, and he’s 20 years old, because he was a YouTuber. Another YouTuber made another horror film, um, and they were just kind of skit YouTubers who, you know, directed this, this film.

[00:43:14] Again, Obsession is what it was called, is what it’s called. And they went around the traditional model and just did it themselves. And there’s another YouTuber, Markiplier.

[00:43:24] Nathan: Yeah, I just saw him on stage at Conan’s Reairs event a couple weeks ago.

[00:43:27] Pat: Oh, you did? Yeah. Oh, yeah, I saw that interview, actually. Yeah.

[00:43:28] He’s incredible. He f- self-directed, self-wrote, self-funded his own movie. And he

[00:43:33] Nathan: starred in it as well. Wow.

[00:43:34] Pat: And starred in it. Oh. And, and it got into 2,500 theaters- Wow … and became the number one movie. So it’s like, I feel like there’s a surge now for creators to start telling better stories in a medium like theater that wasn’t accessible before.

[00:43:51] Um, and if we can get on the front of that, we, I mean, we could tell some … We, we already make movies. Our videos are one and a half to two hours in length. When I write a script f- for the voiceovers for those, they’re book length every single video. That’s why it’s, like, once a month, and I’m loving it, and we’re leaning into it even more.

[00:44:09] And then maybe Pokemon evolves into maybe we make an anime. Well, I don’t know. Just- Right … w- when we have the skill of storytelling in these mediums that we’re a part of, the sky’s the limit, and we’ll see where it goes.

[00:44:22] Nathan: The thing that stands out to me the most is, first, your passion for whatever you, you sink into, right?

[00:44:28] Of, we saw that with SPI over the years. You were always the person who’s like, “Hey, I’m gonna try this challenge. I’m gonna do this thing. I’m going…” You know, during, during COVID, you’re like, “I’m gonna go live all of these, those times. Like, I’m gonna ser- I’m gonna go above and beyond to serve the audience.”

[00:44:42] But then the second thing is how- You have to let go of one thing in order to go all in on the next. And, like, you can have these multiple things that are great and impactful and all that, and there’s a story that you could tell yourself of like, “Oh, but I have to keep serving this audi- I have to keep serving both audiences because of the impact that I’m having.”

[00:45:02] And you have to let go of the one in order to go all

[00:45:04] Pat: in on the other. I mean, I tried, and I feel like I did a decent job, but each of these aspects of my life got half of me, and therefore I wasn’t best serving either of them in my opinion.

[00:45:17] Nathan: Well, I mean, that’s evidence of Liz coming in and the, the community doubling

[00:45:24] Pat: in size.

[00:45:24] Just exploding, like, on

[00:45:24] Nathan: day one. Because people can… Even if the, even if the different aspects of it where someone might not, might not be able to put their finger on it- Yeah … of, like, why something’s different, like, or if there’s a different tactic or anything, like, they can feel the passion, they can feel the energy, and they can feel the focus.

[00:45:39] Pat: Yeah. I mean, we started running these challenges which had, you know, our first one had, like, over 10,000 people participate in it. The conversations that are being held in there, there’s just so much more talking and conversation in the community now- Yeah … since you’ve come on.

[00:45:53] Liz: Yeah, and I think it’s what Nathan just said, there’s, there’s energy, there’s excitement, and people even, you know, DM’ing us and emailing, “Oh, I’m, I’m loving this again.

[00:46:03] I’m logging in again. Uh, I don’t, I don’t know what it is, but- Yeah, yeah … I’m excited to be here again.” That’s so cool. Or getting new members in creates a lot of new energy as well. It was her. And- It was Liz … oh, thank you for the endorsement … this whole time. Um, and that’s just been so, so awesome, and I love that you mentioned, you know, Pat loves to pour into his community.

[00:46:25] I do, too, and I’m so excited to be able to do that. Like, I’m just s- super jazzed. Yeah. That’s amazing.

[00:46:33] Nathan: Liz, I’d love to hear from you. What is the future of SPI?

[00:46:36] Liz: Yeah. So Pat talked about his FlynnCon and people used to, you know, used to be Team Flynn, and I remember when I was buying the business or, you know, we were in negotiations, I said, “Well, if I’m gonna buy this, I should read one of Pat’s books.”

[00:46:53] I’ve never read any of them. And so I actually… I was so busy, I actually downloaded the audio version of Superfans, and I listened to it, and he was talking about Team Flynn and things like that, and I said, “Well, how could I change that?” Because it’s true. You should h- name your audience. For me, my people are big senders.

[00:47:13] I want them to go out and- Yes. I like that a lot … hit send. Yeah. It’s so fun, right? And so I’m like, “What, what could it be?” Because I think right off the bat, in order for people to, you know, accept this transition, it has to be about them, right? And I thought Team Flynn. I said, “Well, what about Team Win?” And I was like, “Oh, that’s kinda corny, but so am I, so is Pat,” you know?

[00:47:36] And but what d- what does it mean to win? Because a lot of creators don’t feel like winners. We go and we create every day. But, you know, the needle moves so slowly at first, and that’s who we, we talk to. We talk to those at-first people, right? And I thought, well, what, what does WIN stand for? And I thought, what’s important now?

[00:47:57] And so- Mm … I wanna take it from Team Flynn to Team WIN, and I wanna help creators focus on what’s important now. Uh, people like me and Pat- That’s good … we’ll, we’ll sell you a webinar. We’ll we’ll pitch you, uh, day after day, right? And so you’re getting thrown all these things: email, Instagram, ManyChat.

[00:48:18] Pinterest is still on the board, I think, you know? And it’s… But we’ve got to focus on what’s important now, and every day that’s different, and that’s where I wanna take this community. I wanna help each individual creator recognize their thing, their this is what’s important right now. I’m gonna forget about the rest, and I’m gonna focus on this.

[00:48:42] If I’m growing my YouTube channel, that’s what I’m growing. That’s what I’m focused on. If I’m working on email, that’s the thing. If I’m starting my podcast, that’s the thing, ’cause creators, we try to do so- We- The two ladders. Pat’s guilty of it. I’m trying to do it all. I’m guilty of it. Um, and so we’re taking it from Team Flynn to Team WIN, and I’m so excited.

[00:49:03] Pat: I love that. And everybody has a different definition of what WIN means to them.

[00:49:07] Liz: Right.

[00:49:08] Pat: Um, and you need to celebrate the small wins, too. I think there’s so many levels to that. That speaks to the values and the mission completely. And Winnebago

[00:49:19] Liz: Okay, and- All the

[00:49:20] Nathan: way back to

[00:49:20] Pat: RVs …

[00:49:20] Liz: shout out RVs. RV. Going back to RVs.

[00:49:22] That was one of my first sponsors. Really?

[00:49:24] Pat: There

[00:49:24] Liz: you go. Yeah, yeah. Shout out Winnebago. Team Win. Win. Team Win, and I love it, and part of the transition we’ve been doing, I’ve already been implementing that into the community. Hey, around here we’re Team Win, we’re Team Win. Uh, Pat and I have been co-creating the newsletter, and so there’s a little, uh, little win of the week.

[00:49:42] Ah, yeah. And it goes perfectly with what he writes, you know, ’cause normally he’ll say, “Oh, this and that, you know, here’s your challenge of the week. Here’s what I want you to do with that.” And so I’m like, “This is your win. This is what’s important now based on what Pat said. Here’s what we want you to go out and do.”

[00:49:58] And we’ve been getting replies to the inbox, “Oh, I, I love this. This gives me something to do. I feel like I’m actually, you know, logging off accomplished,” versus- Mm … “I spent eight hours on the computer today, and I don’t know what I did.” That’s so good. So I love that so much. I’m stoked.

[00:50:15] Nathan: Oh, so am

[00:50:16] Liz: I.

[00:50:16] Pat: That’s so good.

[00:50:17] Nathan: Oh, man. I have, uh, another financial question that I’m very curious about.

[00:50:20] Liz: Okay.

[00:50:21] Nathan: Diving in, so you’re talking about the, you figure out an acquisition price, and then you’re figuring out, okay, a payment plan, like, what to, to buy it over. I think a lot of entrepreneurs early in their careers would be surprised at how many things actually happen off of payment plans.

[00:50:34] Like, even the kit.com domain purchase, they made us a deal on a payment plan, and we’re like, “Yes.”

[00:50:40] Pat: Oh, really?

[00:50:40] Nathan: I didn’t know

[00:50:41] Pat: that. Oh. We will take that. Cool, yeah.

[00:50:41] Nathan: We paid 50% up front, 50% over a couple of years. And we- Smart … we’ve got a, I don’t know, maybe a year left, and then we’ll have that paid off. But it’s a very common thing, we’re gonna say.

[00:50:50] Pat: I mean, learning finances in this way where, like, the magic you can do when you move numbers around in a certain way, this is, again, Matt’s magic.

[00:50:57] Nathan: Yep.

[00:50:58] Pat: Um, I’m learning this as a person who has now built a little bit of wealth and can now understand what to do with trusts and, you know, taking a loan against something I already have so I don’t actually have to use that cap- and it’s like, what is hap- like, I, this is all new to me, and I kind of learn it as I go, and I’m like, wow, there’s a lot of tools that we can use that can help you get these things a little bit m- you know, faster or, you know, a- actually have access to stuff that maybe you would, didn’t know you could.

[00:51:28] Because, I mean, I bet paying 100% would’ve been a lot, you know?

[00:51:33] Nathan: Yeah, and it w- it was doable, but when, you know, you think about, oh, we could keep this capital reserved for something else. Liz, I’m curious for you, how did you think about, you know, the payback period of the acquisition or… There’s obviously the if I invest in the community in this way and we can grow it in this, it can turn into these other things, but, you know, you’re taking on a lot of risk.

[00:51:52] Liz: Yeah. I don’t know if the camera just showed me swallowing. It’s a, it’s a lot of risk for me, and, you know, you can do the math, uh, 4,000 times nine. You know, that’s quite a bit of cash, but to buy something like SPI, you know, I’m gonna need some more. Right off the bat when we first finally started talking about finances, I told Pat and Matt, because he was, you know, a big deal of making this work, I said, “Well, we might have to get creative, boys.”

[00:52:20] You know, I might be the right person, um, but you know, like you said, you know, I don’t wanna spend everything, take out loans, et cetera, et cetera. That’s a huge risk. And so I asked for seller financing, you know, “Hey, can we make a deal that way?” And they were super open to it, and I think that’s a testament to what Pat said about finding the right person.

[00:52:43] And so for me, that felt really comfortable, again, being able to bet on myself, knowing that, you know, also seeing the financials of SPI, you know, signing the NDA and, you know, taking a look behind the curtain and also looking at SPI, really analyzing it, you know, joining the email list, seeing what they’re launching, what they’re not, what they’re making money with, uh, sponsor, who’s sponsoring them right now and who isn’t.

[00:53:10] What are your past sponsors? Uh, how much money did they give you over there? Mm. Why did that deal go south? Or, and you know, like, what are the missed opportunities? And so for me, that’s where my head was at of how can I come in and, you know, double the membership in 90 days? How can I, you know, get with past sponsors?

[00:53:29] How can I… I know we work with Kit closely as a, an affiliate. How can we, how can we double that number in the next two years, you know, so I can… Where is this money going to come from? And so for me, again, it was just literally listing out all the missed opportunities that I saw. A lot of our conversations were me just poking holes, like, “Yeah, you guys didn’t reply back to my email,” you know?

[00:53:52] Oh. Oh, man. I was like-

[00:53:53] Pat: You’re calling us out-

[00:53:54] Liz: I was like- … on our

[00:53:54] Pat: shortcomings,

[00:53:55] Liz: but … “Well, why, why don’t we have this? Why haven’t we done that? Uh, what in the past was working and then you just stopped doing it? W- you know, where, why did you stop doing it?” You know, thinking to myself, “Is this something we could maybe try to bring back or, you know, flip it to do it X way instead of Y?”

[00:54:13] And so that appears to be working really well.

[00:54:18] Pat: Yeah, you definitely surprised a lot of the team members on just calling us out on what was wrong and what, what, you know, from your perspective on the outs. This is the nice thing about having people on the outside, whether they’re incoming buyers or advisors or other people- Oh, yeah

[00:54:33] just they have a separate set of eyes that are not so deep into what you’re doing, and they can see things that are so obvious that are not to you who is on the inside. Uh, I think a, a part of what helped with finances is that the business model that we adapted in 2020 was the membership model, which has recurring income, which is a little bit more predictable, a lot more predictable- Yeah, a lot more.

[00:54:54] Yep … than the sort of like launch and hope model that was always kind of around. So that was also a part of the idea in 2020 when it was built to sell. Again, I didn’t have the idea of selling it back then, and then I got a few offers once we went recurring and the membership happened. See how attractive that is.

[00:55:11] Um, once that’s there, then you have a lot more security and a lot more predictability To help a buyer understand what they’re getting into and, uh, you know, some of the funds I imagine are gonna come from what you knew was gonna come as a result, and you just wanna level that up.

[00:55:26] Liz: Right. And for me, coming from my business where I have a membership model as well, I’m serving a very similar audience, um, I, I knew that I could come in and, you know, implement what I was implementing over here, and it seems to be working really well, and I love the plan that Pat came up with of, “Let’s introduce Liz as the community director.”

[00:55:50] Right. You know? So it makes sense why she’s sending emails about the community. It makes sense why she’s the one, you know, doing the workshops now. We added in office hours. You know, Pat had to, because he was holding two ladders, you know, he had to go from four office hours a month to two. “Oh, that’s perfect.

[00:56:09] I’ll do two.” You know? Mm-hmm. And so it’s worked really, really well in that way, and it’s made me feel super secure about those payments.

[00:56:18] Nathan: Yeah. Okay, so I’m curious, you both have sold multiple businesses now. What are the things that, you know, you got right in those exits, either this one or, or others, you know, in structure, packaging, how you built up o- over time?

[00:56:32] And maybe what, what are some of those things that you’re like, “Ooh, if I could come alongside me, you know, five years ago or two years ago or now in a previous exit, and I would give different advice”?

[00:56:42] Liz: I think for me, I, what I get right is the buyer. You know, similar to Pat, when I sold my personal brand, it was really important that it lived beyond me, and now I sold in 2020.

[00:56:54] I only owned that business for three years, and now that business is eight years old, so the owners have owned it longer than I did. Right. And that just blows my mind. So I, I sold it to the right people.

[00:57:07] Nathan: The buyer, the right buyer is more important than the right price.

[00:57:10] Liz: Correct. Yeah. And so if I was to look back, I would, “Oh, I coulda gotten more money,” or, “I sh- I should have extended that deal.

[00:57:17] Um, you know, I should have stayed on longer so I could have made more money.” But again, it, it, that didn’t feel right in the moment.

[00:57:26] Pat: For me, having Matt has been absolutely key, because I just wouldn’t have been able to wrap my head around the logistics of a sale and, uh, the numbers. And, you know, if you are in a position to not have your own Matt, you know, a CFO or somebody like that on your team, you’re gonna have to hire potentially somebody on the outside to do a lot of that auditing and all that kind of stuff, and it’s just like, it’s a lot.

[00:57:52] However, as you are building your business, keep track of everything. Keep track of everything, build systems. The more that you have systems and standard operating procedures, the more that somebody can come in and just kind of now be the one to operate them. Versus again, before, if I wanted to sell my business, it would’ve been impossible, because the, the only way I would’ve been able to sell it is if I had gotten money, but then essentially became an employee-

[00:58:20] Nathan: Right

[00:58:20] Pat: of the n- of the b- of the buyer. Um, and that’s not what I want.

[00:58:24] Nathan: Yeah. I think that that, the built to sell is such an important idea. I think it’s, it’s important for every creator, really every business, whether you want to sell it or not.

[00:58:32] Pat: Mm-hmm.

[00:58:33] Nathan: Because you can look at, okay, what would… If someone were to buy my business, one, what would they fix immediately?

[00:58:39] And that’s basically what Liz is doing, right? Yeah, yeah. You come in with fresh set of eyes and you’re like, “Okay, do all of these things.”

[00:58:44] Pat: Mm-hmm.

[00:58:44] Nathan: Um, and if things on that list make sense, like, okay, well let me do it even before I sell the business. Um, but two, what are they gonna value? Right? You brought up recurring revenue.

[00:58:54] They’re gonna value that a lot. Maybe we have a business that’s very, like Instagram and social media heavy. It’s like okay, well, where’s the email list on that, right? They’re gonna-

[00:59:02] Pat: Mm-hmm …

[00:59:03] Nathan: they’re gonna value that. Um, a really good team, really good SOPs. Like, all these things that investors or a new acquirer care deeply about, do that because it, they’re just good business practices.

[00:59:15] Pat: Yeah.

[00:59:16] Nathan: And so focusing on running a great business that is built so it could be sold also makes it so that it’s a great business to own and continue to run, and that’d be the position you, you would be in-

[00:59:27] Pat: Right …

[00:59:27] Nathan: if you didn’t have a much bigger, newer calling

[00:59:31] Pat: to pursue. Correct, correct. I, I would still be able to have more time.

[00:59:34] I’d be able to have a lot more peace at which, you know, the business can run on its own. And you know, again- beyond me? How could it continue to live? Um, and I think that’s really important. I think, I’m curious, Liz, because you have this community, you have acquired another one. Are you willing to share any plans on like how this-

[00:59:55] Nathan: How are you, how are you gonna balance them and reconcile those two different communities?

[00:59:57] Liz: Yeah. So I don’t know exactly how things will go, um, logistically, but of course, the two brands will merge, and lizwilcox.com is going to move into SPI, Smart Passive Income. You know, it has more staying power. It’s been around since 2008. Uh, you know, luckily Pat sold me the podcast that’s a large audience, you know?

[01:00:25] Oh, yeah. Like, “Come over here and, you know, listen to the podcast. Join this email list.” Um, I’m not-

[01:00:32] Pat: Your membership is pr- like your- The m- … membership that you have, that’s you-

[01:00:35] Liz: Yes …

[01:00:36] Pat: is like the lower level stuff- It’s

[01:00:37] Liz: a lower- …

[01:00:38] Pat: that SPI never had.

[01:00:39] Liz: Yes. Yes.

[01:00:40] Pat: We never had a lower sort of tier item. And so like- Yeah

[01:00:43] there is like a perfect merging-

[01:00:44] Liz: So it’s, it’s a- … in my opinion … it’s definitely a merging, and we’re definitely going to be taking assets from my email marketing and bringing them into the, the super fan system, which is something that Pat came up with and is generous enough to let me use, uh, inside of our community, and it helps you create super fans, right?

[01:01:07] And so I think a big missing piece, if I’m gonna poke holes is email, right? That’s my expertise. I wanna help people, uh, make a living online, right? And so that’s what I do with my little membership. And so putting those assets into the community and letting everyone, uh, learn from them, I think is a really, really, um, important next step for the community I’m very excited about.

[01:01:33] Pat: Yeah. And you have 4,000 members that several of them, I imagine, would just benefit so much from this, the, the other kind of things we teach in SPI.

[01:01:44] Liz: Absolutely. So I mean, that’s like- I, yeah, I’m so excited because I, I’ve always taught very, like, granular. I’m a horse with blinders, email, email, email. I’ve even had business coaches, “You know, Liz, you’re bigger than email.

[01:01:54] You could teach all this stuff.” And I’m like, “I, I haven’t hit 10,000 members yet. I haven’t hit… When I hit 10,000, I’ll, you know, talk about it.” But- Yeah, it’s a perfect segue. You know, I wanna teach people not only email, but how to, you know, get on podcasts, and host a podcast, and start a YouTube channel. You know, I’ve done all of those things in different industries as well, so I think it’s a perfect, uh, union, I guess.

[01:02:23] Nathan: Yeah.

[01:02:23] Pat: Yeah, a lot of people purchase businesses to essentially fast-forward-

[01:02:27] Nathan: Right …

[01:02:28] Pat: to get to the point of that, right? It would take you forever to build SPI from scratch.

[01:02:32] Liz: It was taking me forever. I’ve been at this 10 years, bro. Right. It, it wa- like I said, teleportation machine. Right, right. Let me just get in there.

[01:02:42] Yeah, and I, I, I love my people so much, like, I want to help them do the thing, and a lot of people would ask me, “Okay, Liz, you know, I’ve got this email thing. It, it’s working, but I wanna start a YouTube channel,” or, “Liz, teach me about how you got 50,000 downloads in the first six months of your podcast.” I’m like, “I don’t teach that.

[01:03:02] Give me $9. Join my membership.” You know, that’s all, that’s all I’m available for. But now I feel like, you know, I have, I’ve signed my own permission slip of, okay, yeah, actually, I can teach that stuff. Mm. And, you know, you can come over here now. And so I think it’s gonna be just so amazing for not only the SPI community to get that email expertise, but my community to get, you know, a much broader sense of what it means to be a creator.

[01:03:30] Pat: I think this is a perfect example of 10X is easier than 2X.

[01:03:34] Liz: I just bought that book today- Did you? … bro. Yeah. Shout out- Did you really? … Dr. Ben. Yeah.

[01:03:38] Pat: Yeah. Uh, Ben Hardy. Um-

[01:03:40] Liz: So funny …

[01:03:41] Pat: to ta- I- it is risky. It feels risky, but oftentimes when you try to 2X something, you’re just doing more of what you were already doing.

[01:03:48] Right. Yes. Right? But this is that big, bold investment, that risky thing that can get you so much more in return, and so I wanna commend you for that. Thank you. E- e- even if you weren’t buying my business, I would say the same thing.

[01:04:01] Liz: I’m sweating now.

[01:04:03] Pat: Uh, but I’m glad you bought-

[01:04:04] Liz: Yeah, but

[01:04:05] Pat: I

[01:04:05] Liz: mean- …

[01:04:05] Pat: SPI ’cause I didn’t want anybody else

[01:04:06] it’s…

[01:04:06] Liz: Yeah. Thank you. But I, I want a 10X for the audience as well. Like, for the people I’ve been, you know, working with, hustling with, helping, I w- I wanna help them 10X too, and I think this is a bold, brave, risky move that shows people, “Oh, maybe, maybe I can 10X.” Yeah. “Maybe I can do something like that.” Um-

[01:04:29] Pat: That’s why I bought the building.

[01:04:30] Liz: Right.

[01:04:31] Pat: Yeah. Same exact kind of thing.

[01:04:32] Nathan: Take those big, make those big swings.

[01:04:33] Pat: Yeah.

[01:04:33] Liz: Yeah.

[01:04:35] Nathan: So I, I wanna touch on one more thing, which is selling a personal brand. You both now have done it. I mean, SPI has grown out to be much bigger than a personal brand because of the deliberate moves that you put in place.

[01:04:45] Pat: Right.

[01:04:46] Nathan: But if someone is at this, this place where they’re like, “Oh, man. I have a YouTube channel,” maybe they’re, uh, like a Veritasium or, you know, one of the other things where, like, they’ve built something of value. It has an audience, but it’s so closely tied to them.

[01:04:58] Pat: Mm-hmm.

[01:04:58] Nathan: What advice would you give? You know, if you’re like, “Okay, I have, I have 12 months before I’m gonna sell this thing.

[01:05:04] Pat: What steps do I take?” It’s hard to sell the thing if the thing is your name. That’s number one.

[01:05:08] Nathan: Yeah.

[01:05:09] Pat: Right? Veritasium is not the seller’s name, and so we were able to see the new person come in, and he’s all over my social feeds now. It’s awesome. I love him, actually.

[01:05:18] Nathan: Yep.

[01:05:19] Pat: Um, with me, it was Smart Passive Income, and so I had the benefit of not having my name.

[01:05:25] I still have patflynn.com, but that’s more of a personal just here’s what I’m up to versus business education, smartpassiveincome.com. So by, over the years, removing myself as the center of the brand and making the community the center, um, we were able to make that happen. However, I also think there’s a lot of opportunity for people with a personal brand, who have their personal brand as a name, to create an asset that that name and that brand creates and is associated with but is separate.

[01:05:54] Just like how I knew a person named Nathan Barry create something called ConvertKit And now Kit and so many other people, Clay Collins creating Leadpages. You know, when you have a personal brand, you have an immediate connection to an audience who’s there for you. And so you can also tap into that audience to go, “Well, what do you need?

[01:06:16] What other problems might you need to be solved? Let me go build that, and I’m gonna build it in a way that’s separate, still with the help of my brand pushing it out there.” But then now it becomes its own asset that could be sold, that could be pushed, that could be partnered with on somebody else, with somebody else, right?

[01:06:34] Just like the SwitchPod with Caleb. Right. Which I also recently sold with him as well. I’m just clearing the runway.

[01:06:41] Liz: He’s a hustler, baby. He’s a hustler. Yeah. I love that you said change the name because I made the mistake of my first … My RV travel blog was lizwilcox.com, and about 18 months in, I knew I didn’t wanna do it forever.

[01:06:54] Like, I was having fun with the audience, but I wasn’t, like, so passionate the way I am about this. And I thought, “Ugh, what am I gonna do? How could I sell lizwilcox.com?” And I thought, “I can’t.” So I changed the domain over to thevirtualcampground.com, and I started making it about the community. And I started doing, like, you know, inside the RV blogs, where I would interview people and give tours of RVs and things like that, and I just eventually moved myself out.

[01:07:25] The only place where it was very strong my voice still was the emails. Right? Which is, I think, similar to SPI. And, um, that was the very first question my now owners, you know, uh, asked me. They said, “Liz, how can we buy The Virtual Campground? You’re Liz Wilcox.” ‘Cause in that space I was really making a name for myself.

[01:07:48] And I said, “But you see, actually, if you look at all the assets, it’s The Virtual Campground. That’s why you wanna buy it, right? You understand the values, that core, and you, you wanna grow it, right?” And they said, “Yeah, I guess. You know, we like it because it is community, because you have this Facebook group, because you go to events and, you know, run a, a, a summit and this and that.

[01:08:13] And yeah, we could, we could keep that going.” So I think it really is making sure it’s named properly and then, you know, having a really core values that are o- um, obvious to the audience, and then making the audience talk to the audience, things we’ve been talking about for the last hour.

[01:08:30] Nathan: Okay, the last thing that I wanna talk about, we touched on at the beginning, is transitions.

[01:08:34] Life is full of transitions, and how you do them matters so much. Mm. You two have been very, very intentional about how to handle this transition. And exactly as you said, Pat, like, if you came out and announced it, like, we all love big splashes. We love big marketing moments, and so to say, “You know, I sold the business, um-” And then exactly as you said, people will tell all of these stories about what happened and, and everything else.

[01:08:58] One of my favorite examples is actually the first, like, blog being sold that I knew of was J.D. Roth selling Get Rich Slowly. I don’t know what, what year he sold this, but it was-

[01:09:10] Pat: One of my favorites.

[01:09:10] Nathan: Yeah, probably what… Around when we met, so it was like 2012, 2013, 2014, some- somewhere in there. And I remember they announced that, you know, he’d sold the business, and people were saying, “Oh, now it’s gonna be completely ruined,” all of the stuff.

[01:09:25] And he said, “No, I actually sold it a year ago. I just announced now,” you know? They’re like-

[01:09:30] Pat: Yeah.

[01:09:31] Nathan: And so you two have been so thoughtful with this transition because you want… A- as I see it, you want the community to experience the authentic thing of what it’s going to become before any of their preconceived notions can kick in.

[01:09:45] Talk about that more.

[01:09:46] Pat: We just want to show proof that what we are stepping into is going to work Versus, “Hey, trust us, it’s g- trust me, bro” Right. Right. I don’t like- Never

[01:09:57] Liz: trust somebody that says, “Trust me, bro.”

[01:10:00] Pat: Right? It’s like, trust me, show. Oh, I love that. Like, we will show you.

[01:10:05] Liz: Ooh, okay, Pat.

[01:10:08] Pat: And then we’ll tell you, right?

[01:10:09] And it… Like, yes, a part of that could be like, “Oh, I feel deceived,” right? I can imagine some people maybe saying that. Like, “Oh, you had sold it this whole time? Like, I was here for you.” And I had n- I’m, I hadn’t gone anywhere. I’m still here, and I will continue to remain, uh, uh, uh, here and there. But I think it was really important.

[01:10:26] Like, that was important for the audience, but it also, I think, really important for Liz to be positioned as a leader that could do it right. And to already have six months behind us of, like, her doing it right is going to get rid of any sort of like, “Oh, what’s gonna happen?” Well, you’ve seen it, and if you didn’t like what happened in the last six months, then maybe it isn’t for you.

[01:10:52] Nathan: Right. You might have already left.

[01:10:53] Liz: And that… Right. Right. And some have, yes.

[01:10:57] Pat: Yeah.

[01:10:57] Liz: Um, but that’s okay. And that was one thing. I was, I was talking to a friend before, it was right before we signed the deal, and I said, “Oh, you know, this is our transition plan, da, da, da, da.” And my friend said, “Wow, Pat must really care about you.

[01:11:13] He really wants to see this thing succeed.” ‘Cause we did wanna make a big splash. Right. Who doesn’t want to? We’re like, “Oh, we’re gonna go to Craft and Commerce, and we’re gonna ride on stage,” and, uh, you know, Pat came to me and said, “Ah, that’s not right.” I said, “You know what? You’re right. Let’s think about what would work best for the audience, what would make the most people,” ’cause you can’t please everybody, that’s part of being a creator- Mm-hmm

[01:11:38] comfortable and understanding, and on, you know, going from Team Flynn to Team Wynn, right? How can we do that? And, you know, I’ll give him full credit for the transition plan. And I thought, “Yeah, you’re right. This sounds really good.” Um, ’cause in the beginning I said, “Oh, I’m thinking of this like a gradient.”

[01:11:58] But our plan was not. Our plan was a big splash- Wow … on the canvas, right? Um, so that’s been… It’s been really remarkable to see the audience, to see the plan come together, to see the audience rep- You know, I got my first reply of, “Liz, I’m a super fan of yours.” I was like, “Oh my God, it’s working.” I’ve

[01:12:19] Pat: had a lot of emails from people saying- So that’s awesome

[01:12:21] “I love that you’ve brought Liz on. Like, she’s bringing the energy that I felt has been missing.” Mm-hmm.

[01:12:26] Nathan: And then you’re, you know, you’re like, “Oh, thank you,” and then you’re like, “You don’t even know the half of it yet.” Yeah. Like, there’s so many good things coming.

[01:12:31] Liz: I know. I wanna tell everyone, but I’m so excited we’re doing this, ’cause it feels so good to finally have it out there.

[01:12:38] And, um- Yeah, it just, it just feels really good. I’m so happy we did it this way.

[01:12:45] Nathan: Yeah.

[01:12:45] Pat: And hopefully it’s a lesson to all of you who are watching and maybe are curious about what that might look like, and maybe you hadn’t thought so hard about, well, who would be taking over my brand, and maybe this gives you some inspiration for different conversations you can have to, to hopefully do it right.

[01:13:01] And is this perfect? No. There will probably be things that we missed, and we’ll get some feedback on that and, and lessons learned. We sure will,

[01:13:08] Liz: I’m sure.

[01:13:09] Pat: Um, but at the same time, we did a lot to think about trying to do this the right way and, and to do it in honor of those who, from my perspective, have helped me get to this position to be able to move into the next phase of my life.

[01:13:25] And it’s crazy ’cause the kids now are just a few years away from college years and, and getting into their own lives and families that I’m gonna have a lot more time on my hands to go even further in this new mission of mine. Um, you know, reading a lot of Walt Disney books and things like that. I mean, I’m thinking big.

[01:13:43] I’m thinking big, so.

[01:13:45] Liz: I love it. I’m so excited. And yeah, I, I understand, and I, I don’t take it lightly, the 18 years of work that it took to build this audience and build that trust, like real trust, and that’s something I’m excited to carry on, and something, you know… It’s, it’s really big shoes to fill, and I’m taking it seriously.

[01:14:12] I’m also reading books. Like I said, “Oh, I just bought that book,” and, um, you know, I’m reading books, I’m listening to podcasts, I’m, I’m journaling, I’m meditating, and I’m listening to every person in the audience I can. I’m asking so many questions right now in this transition period. Uh, every email I send, hit reply, hit reply, hit reply.

[01:14:35] Do you like this? Do you not like this? What about it? You know, think- I’m sending video after video, uh, to customers. I’m getting on 20-minute calls with new customers, um-

[01:14:46] Pat: Well, and you even went to a workshop about leadership, right? You, with Lee?

[01:14:51] Liz: Oh, right. I’m working with Lee Cockerell, the retired vice president of Disney, so, of Walt Disney World, because I wanna make sure I can take care of this many people.

[01:15:05] Yeah. I look at April 1st as, for me, you know, yes, it’s day one, but it was also, like, the biggest day of my life. I’m stepping in, I’ve stepped into that teleportation device. I’m i- at a new level now, and so I need to be a new person. Who I was March 31st, that girl is gone. You know, and it’s not even the audience, also the team, stepping in and making sure they’re happy and, you know, want to come to work.

[01:15:33] That’s a whole new set of problems. That’s a, yep. You know? New

[01:15:36] Nathan: skills to

[01:15:37] Liz: learn. Yeah.

[01:15:37] Nathan: Ways to level up.

[01:15:38] Liz: And, but it’s very, the same way he’s lit up, like I’m lit up. I, I feel energized again. That was something- Um, I think I’m, I don’t know, uniquely equipped for Smart Passive Income because I actually created it.

[01:15:52] You know, I have this $9 membership. Y’all, at $9 you really don’t have to deliver a lot. You’re spending a lot of time at the beach . And I spoke in 2025 at Craft and Commerce about that, about how much freedom my membership gave me. And now, stepping in, I’m energized again. I’m excited about the audience. I’m excited to, uh, fill these shoes as best I can and take it to the next level and help creators.

[01:16:18] Nathan: I love that. Well, in a very authentic way to the SPI brand, you two have told the whole story of the acquisition publicly, in the same way that, you know, you built niche sites publicly way back in the day. Yeah. Had the income reports and everything else.

[01:16:32] Pat: It’s important for us to be open so we could show how it’s done.

[01:16:34] And if we don’t do it right, you can learn from our mistakes, too. Amen. That’s always been the case. I, I’ve been … Chase Reeves was the one who coined me the crash test dummy of online business. And that was more of a placeholder for a website he was building. Yeah. And I, I loved it.

[01:16:47] Liz: Yeah.

[01:16:47] Pat: Because it doesn’t always go well.

[01:16:48] Sometimes I might crash, but hopefully this can inspire people to know that even though you might not get it right all the time, you can go to places that you didn’t know you could go. And I’m just so grateful, again, that you’re all here listening. Thank you, Nathan, for having us. Yeah. And, and we’re going on this little media tour now to start sharing this more publicly.

[01:17:06] Um, and new adventures await.

[01:17:10] Liz: Yeah, yeah. I can’t wait to be the new crash dummy, ’cause I’ve got a lot of ideas. And I’m sure a lot will hit the wall, and hopefully some of it, uh, you know, will take us to the next level.

[01:17:21] Nathan: I love that. Well, Liz, you’ve been an incredible partner to Kit over the years. Uh, your keynote at Craft and Commerce is fantastic.

[01:17:27] Anyone who’s obsessed over the world of email and memberships and all that can learn so much from, from you. So, thank you for coming on. Pat, I mean, we go way back. Kit was like- We do.

[01:17:38] Pat: And I’m not going anywhere. I’m still here with Kit.

[01:17:40] Nathan: Oh, yeah. Kit was a, a few thousand dollars a month in revenue, uh, when you came on.

[01:17:45] Now, uh, you know, we’re a few million dollars a month

[01:17:48] Pat: in revenue. Doing pretty good. Yeah. I, I like to think I had a little bit to do with that.

[01:17:52] Nathan: Just a little bit. Just to play the- But

[01:17:53] Pat: no, thank you for

[01:17:54] Nathan: always- … a little guiding hand all the way through.

[01:17:56] Pat: I, you always give me a lot of credit for, especially on the early days, certain decisions, and I appreciate that.

[01:18:02] Oh, there’s so many things. But, uh, I’m, I’m still in love with Kit, and will remain, and I’m on the board. And- Oh, yeah … we’ll continue to fight for creators through Kit and still through SPI. Um, but we got big things coming. So.

[01:18:16] Nathan: Yeah. And I think seeing the new frontier of the creator world and everything you’re going into is so exciting.

[01:18:21] So. Thank

[01:18:21] Pat: you.

[01:18:21] Nathan: Thank you both so much for coming on.

[01:18:23] Liz: Thank you.

[01:18:24] Nathan: Thank you. If you enjoyed this episode, go to YouTube and search The Nathan Barry Show, then hit subscribe and make sure to like the video and drop a comment. I’d love to hear what some of your favorite parts of the video were, and also just who else you think we should have on the show.

[01:18:38] Thank you so much for

[01:18:39] listening.

[00:00:00] James: The book has to sell itself in seven seconds right then when they see it in the airport or they’re walking through the bookstore.

[00:00:04] Nathan: This year at Craft & Commerce, Kit’s annual conference, we had James Clear, the bestselling author of Atomic Habits, back on the stage.

[00:00:10] James: 12 months to hit the first million, and then we did the second million in, like, half the time.

[00:00:15] Nathan: The last time he stood up there, that book hadn’t even come out yet.

[00:00:18] James: Great positioning is really about tying your take or your product to the desires that people already have.

[00:00:25] Nathan: Nobody knew it would go on to sell over 30 million copies.

[00:00:28] James: The only way a book really sells millions of copies is through word of mouth.

[00:00:31] Nathan: We get into book launches, what makes a great product.

[00:00:33] James: Nothing matters more in the making of a book, and probably most products or businesses, than…

[00:00:40] Nathan: Email lists and newsletter growth.

[00:00:41] James: I have this dream of sending an email and having a million people open it.

[00:00:44] Nathan: You have the largest single author newsletter in existence.

[00:00:49] Over four million subscribers.

[00:00:50] People come and read the newsletter each week to have, like, a check-in or to be reminded of the same things I need to be reminded of.

[00:00:57] Nathan: At one point, someone in the audience asks…

[00:00:58] Audience member: What is your mission of life?

[00:01:00] Nathan: Small question.

[00:01:01] James: You know, my current answer is that…

[00:01:07] Nathan: When you were here last on the stage, Atomic Habits hadn’t even come out yet.

[00:01:11] James: Yeah.

[00:01:12] Nathan: What expectations did you have for the book? Like, what would’ve been a success?

[00:01:15] James: Um, yeah, so actually that talk… Well, first, hi, everybody. Um, good to good to be here. Uh, thanks for having me back, thrilled to be back. And, um, Nathan is one of the entrepreneurs I respect most and, and a friend.

[00:01:27] And, um, so yeah, I’m just, I’m just happy to be here. So thanks for having me. Um, that talk actually, I give the, it’s kind of like the early stage Atomic Habits talk, but I use, there’s like four steps in the book for the four laws of behavior change, but I use different terms for it in that talk. In that talk.

[00:01:44] ‘Cause I was, I was still playing with the manuscript at the time, and I had a different… It was like noticing, wanting, doing, liking. It was a different phrasing. Same steps, but anyway. Very early. Um, yeah, I had three numbers in mind. So the, the first number was, I thought, “All right, if I can sell 5,000 copies, I won’t at least, I’ll at least feel like it’s not a failure.”

[00:02:03] You know?

[00:02:03] Nathan: 5,000.

[00:02:04] James: Yeah. And then the- That was per

[00:02:05] Nathan: day?

[00:02:05] James: No. No,

[00:02:06] Nathan: I’m kidding.

[00:02:07] James: Yeah. Um, and then the real number that I thought was, “Can I sell 100,000 copies in the first year?” That was, I f- I felt like that was a real stretch goal, but you know, my email list was about… When the book came out, I s- when I signed the book deal, it was 220,000.

[00:02:22] When the book came out, it was like 440, 450. Um, and so I thought, “All right, if I have this audience and I work really hard, and I work on it for a year, and I do a bunch of interviews, and you know, whatever, maybe I could sell 100,000.” That felt like the stretch goal. And then I thought, “Uh, can I sell a million copies ever?”

[00:02:39] And if you, you know, if you stretch the timeline out, I was like, “Okay, can I do 40,000 a year for 20 years or something like that?” And so, you know, I didn’t know if I was gonna be able to hit those other two, but those were the, the numbers that were in my head. I definitely never thought it’d be, you know, a million in a year or a million in a month.

[00:02:54] Nathan: Yeah. How, how many did it end up selling in the first 12 months?

[00:02:58] James: Um, we hit a mi- it was right around a million, a million three, a million eight, something like that. It was somewhere, it was somewhere around that million mark. I think it took about 12 months to hit the first million, and then we did the second million in like half the time, and then it took off from there.

[00:03:13] Nathan: Yeah. And so now you’re over 30 million copies sold, which is impressive in itself.

[00:03:19] James: Crazy

[00:03:20] Nathan: I think there’s a crazier stat about it. Um, to the best of your ability to calculate and verify this, of the top 100 bestselling books of all time, or like most copies sold of all time, where do you think, as best you can tell, Atomic Habit sits in that?

[00:03:35] James: I think it’s, I think it’s somewhere between, it’s somewhere between number 70 and number 90, something like that. It’s hard to, it’s hard to know exactly. Yeah. Nobody keeps a list like that, but it’s-

[00:03:43] Nathan: And like what are a few of the books that would be ahead of that? We’re talking like Harry Potter. Harry

[00:03:46] James: Potter books, the, um, Lord of the Rings.

[00:03:50] Um, yeah, the Bible. Like there’s, it’s like… But

[00:03:56] Nathan: those are the, the types of books that we’re talking about. It’s,

[00:03:58] James: yeah.

[00:03:58] Nathan: It’s not within the, uh, behavior change or self-improvement categories we’re talking about.

[00:04:02] James: I think it’s the youngest book on that list. Yeah. The, like the most recent one to come out. Um…

[00:04:07] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:04:07] James: Uh, uh, whatever. However it’s measured, it’s crazy. I was at- … I was at the Audible offices, uh, last year, and we met with the CEO, and while I was there, I was like, “Can you guys just do me a favor while we… Can you just look at the number? Like, you don’t have to tell me what books are around it, but just if you look at the sales from the last five years, can you just tell me, like, where I am?”

[00:04:24] Um, and I was like, “You know, is it number three or number five or what?” And, uh, he had some guys look it up, and they were like, “Oh, it’s number one.” And the CEO’s like, “For North America?” They’re like, “No, worldwide.” And he was like, “For nonfiction?” They’re like, “No, all books.” And he looked at me and was like, “That’s crazy.”

[00:04:39] It’s like, it’s like, yeah, it’s, it’s, it’s unbelievable. So I certainly beyond what anybody could reasonably expect. It’s, it’s been wild.

[00:04:48] Nathan: Yeah. Um, so- So many of us in here have written books and all of that, but, uh, or want to write books, but I know that everybody is thinking about marketing and growth and all of that.

[00:05:00] And so I’m curious what ideas you’ve learned from the launch of the book and then, you know, all the, the many launches you’ve done in between and everything else-

[00:05:09] James: Mm-hmm …

[00:05:10] Nathan: that you feel like are more timeless marketing ideas that would apply to any product no matter what you’re launching.

[00:05:15] James: Well, I feel like the first thing is just having a really high standard.

[00:05:18] Um, almost the… Nothing matters more in the making of a book, and probably most products or businesses, than making the best book possible. Like, nothing is gonna do more work than that. And so, um, ultimately, every marketing strategy is easier when you have a great product, and I think you should just pour as much energy and effort you can into making it great.

[00:05:40] And, um, you know, in most areas of life, good enough is good enough, but every now and then it’s not good enough. And like, you pick a project where you say, “I really wanna do this to the very best of my ability.” Um, and I tried to be that way about every little detail about the book. Like, for example, you know, each chapter has a first sentence, and first impressions are important, and I want to kick the, the chapters off in a really solid way.

[00:06:02] And so I went to The New York Times and at, at the time they had a, a little panel on the sidebar of the website where you could see their most popular or most read articles. I think they… It was most, it was like most popular and most emailed, I think is what the categories were. And so I just, I, uh, hired a software developer to scrape those lists for, like, thirty days to find out what are the most emailed or most popular articles on The New York Times.

[00:06:24] And then I just went to each link and pulled the first sentence from every article and put them all in a spreadsheet, and I had, like, maybe two hundred. And, um, you know, then I looked through those and say, “Okay, can I try to figure out what are the patterns for articles that, like, do really well? What are the…

[00:06:37] How do they start their sentences off? Like, you know, what does this look like?” And then, you know, some of it wouldn’t work, but sometimes you find something that is a really good fit for how to kick off a certain chapter and you say, “Oh, I could take that structure and, you know, make it work for this as well.”

[00:06:49] And I think it’s that level of detail, that level of granularity, but just applied to, like, almost everything in the process to try to do it as well as you can. And, um, you know, if you take that seriously, you can end up with a really great product. I always say the… Like, I think fifty percent of the success of the book is what you see on the cover.

[00:07:06] It’s the positioning, it’s the category, the topic that you choose and s- title and subtitle The other 50% is like a thousand details that all need to be finely polished and come together. But, um, yeah, those are, those are s- I think that’s one of the first things, is having an incredibly high standard.

[00:07:20] Nathan: Let’s talk about positioning and packaging for a little bit ’cause we, what was it a year and a half ago, sat down in Las Vegas to talk about my book- Yeah … and dive into the positioning and packaging. I was actually writing a different book.

[00:07:31] James: Yep.

[00:07:31] Nathan: And then you sent me a 20-minute Loom video afterwards that was like, “Hear me out.”

[00:07:35] James: Yeah. ”

[00:07:36] Nathan: Don’t write this book, write that book.”

[00:07:38] James: Yeah.

[00:07:39] Nathan: What were some of the positioning things that you’re looking for when you’re like, “Oh, this book is gonna sell for a long time,” versus, “This one might have an uphill battle”?

[00:07:47] James: A lot of these are just direct response copywriting principles, but it’s, it’s very hard to try to convince somebody to have a new desire or that, that the new thing that you’re creating is supposed to be important.

[00:07:58] Instead, what you want to do is tap into a desire that people already have. So, like, there’s a, there’s a chapter later in Atomic Habits where h- I write about, I talk about deliberate practice and, you know, it could have been a book about deliberate practice where I mention habits, but instead it’s a book about building better habits where I mention deliberate practice, and I think the difference in how those two books would sell is, like, enormous.

[00:08:23] If you don’t, if you’re not familiar with deliberate practice, if you don’t know the concept, like you gotta unpack it for 30 seconds and explain it, and you don’t get 30 seconds with a potential reader or a potential customer. Um, the book has to sell itself in seven seconds right then when they see it in the airport or they’re walking through the bookstore.

[00:08:39] And just by virtue of growing up in society and being a part of culture, you know that building good habits is favorable and breaking, having bad habits is unfavorable, and I don’t have to convince anybody of that topic. I just need to convince you, “Hey, if you’re only gonna read one book on the topic, like, this is the one to read.”

[00:08:56] And I think that’s a very different sell. And so as an author, I feel like it’s a good sign if you can find two or three or four books that are similar to what you want to write that have already sold a million copies because it means there’s an appetite for that. And now your job is to say, “Okay, this is the timeless, enduring desire that I’m gonna tap into.

[00:09:17] How do I make it my own? How do I have a unique angle or a different line of attack?” Or s- you know, something that where people feel like, “Oh, okay, I know exactly why I would buy this. It taps into something I already want, but I haven’t quite heard it put that way before,” and that, that’s what makes it fresh.

[00:09:31] So I think great positioning is really about tying your take or your product to the desires that people already

[00:09:39] Nathan: have. Yeah. That makes sense. Okay, so with everyone here using email and investing in that, we’ve gotta talk about email. I believe, to the best of my ability to verify- … you have the largest single author newsletter in existence.

[00:09:56] Um, there’s companies that have bigger email lists, uh, but what you’re over four million subscribers?

[00:10:02] James: That’s crazy. That’s- Um, yeah. I, uh, I think actually, I th- I think I told Sean Blanc’s here somewhere. I think I told Sean many years ago, I’ve told some other people too, that I… It was, like, maybe 10 years ago.

[00:10:14] I said, “I kind of have this dream of sending an email and having a million people open it.” Yeah. That was, like, what I was, like, kind of shooting for, and we did it, so it was, was crazy. Um- Worked

[00:10:22] Nathan: out.

[00:10:22] James: Yeah. I, uh, I don’t know if it’s the biggest or not, but it’s certainly far bigger than I ever thought it would be.

[00:10:27] Um, and, uh, yeah, I sometimes am still surprised. I’m like, “Why are you guys reading?” Like, what… Just read the book. What are you… Why are you reading the newsletter? What, what else do you need? But I, I have been surprised to see that, um, it’s a very human experience. We need to be reminded. I think people come and read the newsletter each week to have, like, a check-in or to be reminded of the same things I need to be reminded of, you know?

[00:10:48] Like, I struggle with all the same stuff that I write about. It’s kind of annoying how often I feel like I should read Atomic Habits. But, um, but it’s, you know, that’s, that’s part of it. Um, yeah. So- The list has grown a lot.

[00:10:59] Nathan: Yeah. Obviously, the single best growth tactic for a newsletter is to sell a few million copies of a book, and then ha- people will subscribe from there.

[00:11:08] But only probably about what, what you think 20% of the list growth is directly from the book

[00:11:14] James: sales? Well, there’s, you know, there’s multiple calls to action in Atomic Habits at the end of each part, and then there’s maybe three or four that are kind of sprinkled throughout, um, to join the newsletter. And I would say about…

[00:11:23] We tried to calculate it. It’s about 10% of the people who read the book sign up, um, through one of those- From

[00:11:29] Nathan: something that’s attributable …

[00:11:30] James: to the book. Right. Yeah. Um, so you know, that’s, I mean, that’s two million subscribers right there. Um, but like half the list is not from that. Um- Right … and honestly, like I don’t know how many, you know, many people have unsubscribed at this point, so probably if two million come from the book, there’s probably like five million that have signed up through other ways, and the list is just at four now or whatever.

[00:11:49] But yeah, SEO, Instagram, Twitter was really strong for me for a while. I find that, uh, you know, I’ve been doing this for a while now, right? Like, my first article was November 12th, 2012, and um, about every two years, the source of traffic changes on the website. I had a… There was like a vintage like 2014-ish where Quora was like a really big driver for me.

[00:12:11] They had this feature where you could, um… They had like a blog feature. I would write on my article, write on my website, and then, uh, paste it into Quora and like, um, uh, syndicate it there. Right. And if it did well, Quora would, like if it, if it was one of their top articles of the week, they would email it out to their full user base.

[00:12:29] And so I just kept the links in to my website, and sometimes you’d get, you know, 40,000 visits in a day or something if it, if it blew up. Um, but that doesn’t exist anymore. You know, they deprecated that feature. So it just, things change fast, but those are, those are some of the ones that have been big over the years.

[00:12:44] Nathan: Is there anything you, that you see working either for list growth for yourself or for some of the authors that you’re working with, uh, that’s driving list growth well?

[00:12:53] James: I feel like a lot of you are more savvy than I am now at this point. Um, you know, like Gannon came up to me yesterday and was talking to me about Instagram strategy and stuff, and I thought a lot of those ideas made sense.

[00:13:01] Like there’s, there are a lot of people in this room who are very, you know, sharp with the current tactics and tools. I, I still feel like- In the long run, all, everything ends up getting gamified. You know, it’s all like all the Instagram comments are like, “Comment habits,” and I’ll DM you my whatever. You know, it’s like everything, everything becomes a, a hack or a strategy for the algorithm at some point.

[00:13:22] And so ultimately, it always boils back down to like who’s actually sharing the best ideas, um, and who, you know, who’s generating the best content. And so I really do feel like it’s almost boring to say that you should spend more time like creating stuff that is of extreme value, but I, I think you should.

[00:13:38] Um, and then the tools are always just gonna be changing and fluctuating, but yeah.

[00:13:42] Nathan: Yeah, that makes sense. Now, when you think about the driving people from a book to the newsletter, if you were, you know, either what are the things that worked really well inside of Atomic Habits specifically, or if you’re working with another author that you’re like, “Ooh, make sure that you have- Mm-hmm

[00:13:59] uh, this in there in order to close that loop to the newsletter.”

[00:14:01] James: Yep. I, I like all of the… If you consider each platform in your business as like an asset, you know, so like your Instagram account is an asset, your Twitter account, your newsletter, your podcast, whatever. I– whatever the little points are, I almost view them like nodes in a spider web, and I always want everything to be cross-pollinating and cross-promoting, connected to each other.

[00:14:20] So, you know, each post I put on Instagram has a link back to the, you know, to the website, and each article that or each newsletter that goes out has links to social and back and forth and, you know, just not just in like one or two ways, but in like 15 ways. Um, and the book links to the newsletter, and the newsletter links to the book and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

[00:14:38] So the more that you can tighten that, I think the better. And, um, you can’t just do it once or twice. You gotta do it like every time. Uh, but collectively, I think that ends up passing a lot back and forth. So I encourage authors to do that, you know, to try to cross-pollinate their platforms. I think that the web has become more platform-centric and more, um siloed than it used to be.

[00:15:04] You know, there’s kind of people who are like, “I’m, I do podcasts and I do TikTok, but I don’t really watch YouTube,” or, “I do YouTube and I, you know, like browse on Instagram, but I never log into X or whatever.” And so, um, in order to stand out, I feel like you have to be so good. Uh, all the platforms are really mature now, and I think that probably what that means is you need to choose carefully.

[00:15:27] Um, I think rather than trying to be everywhere, like pick one or two that work best for you and then double down on that. I, I would say that general strategy of early on when things aren’t working well, you should test widely, explore broadly. Once you find something that works, double down on that and do it more.

[00:15:46] Keep doing it until it stops working, which you would be surprised how often people don’t do that. You know, like, why am I still doing interviews about Atomic Habits? It’s, it’s still working. Um, you know- Yeah … it’s like don’t, don’t, don’t stop until it stops working. And then once it stops working, go back to step one and explore broadly, uh, again.

[00:16:03] I remember, this was like real early on, I read this article, it was 50 ways to drive traffic to your website, and so over the next like three or four months, I tried all 50. None of them worked. And I was like, “Am I just an idiot?” Or like, “What’s, you know, what’s going on?” And eventually I tried some other things that weren’t on that list that did work for me.

[00:16:22] But it’s really frustrating in the beginning to try these things that, you know, everybody says are going great and it doesn’t stick for you. And I think some of it is sometimes strategies are good for certain types of content and not others. Sometimes strategies are good for certain types of people and not others.

[00:16:36] You know, like you wanna do things that play to your strengths, and eventually through enough experimentation, you find the things that overlap with your strengths and your content and your style, and you can make it your own. But it requires some persistence to figure out what those things are and then double down on what works.

[00:16:51] Nathan: Yeah. Okay, I wanna talk about Authors Equity, and then I wanna go to two questions from the audience.

[00:16:57] James: Okay.

[00:17:01] Nathan: When you build a personal brand, it can only go so far. Yours has gone, like, one of the furthest we’ve ever seen. Um, but it still has some level of limitation, uh, as, as the scale of business and all that. Now, what made you make the switch and say, like, “Okay, I wanna found a publishing company,” and then let’s get into the scale that that is starting to achieve?

[00:17:22] James: Well, I did it because, um… Well, first of all, it’s not just me. Like, I’ve, we’ve, I have a great team, and I’m just a co-founder. It’s part of, part of a, you know, a group of really awesome people. But, um- I did it ’cause I felt like it was the right thing to do. You know? Like e- everybody has been… All authors have known this to be true for at least, I’d say, 10 or 15 years, which is it kinda feels like you’re getting a raw deal now.

[00:17:46] Um, the world has changed. We’re very… Publishing was invented and created and rose to prominence pre-internet, and we are very obviously post-internet now, and everybody owns their audience, and the author has more power than ever before. But under traditional deals, the publisher is still keeping 70% of the profit.

[00:18:04] And, you know, like I… When Atomic Habits came out, I did 200 interviews in the first six months, and 196 were booked by me, and four were booked by the publisher. And, you know, I wasn’t upset about it ’cause I knew that was what it was gonna be like going in, but you do kinda feel like, “If I’m the one who wrote the book, and I’m the one doing all the heavy lifting and promoting it, why are you guys making all the money?”

[00:18:25] Um, and so it just felt like something needed to change. But, you know, if you’re in the publisher’s position, and you’re the one making 70% of the profit, you’re not gonna be like, “You know what? You guys are right.” “We’ll give you more money.” Um, instead you’re just like, “No, it’s not quite like that. Like, yeah, things are different, but we still do, you know, X, Y, and Z.”

[00:18:44] And so it just took a startup to come in and kinda reset the scales and change, change the industry to say, “There’s a better way to do this now.” Um-

[00:18:52] Nathan: Well, the thing that I think is crazy is you’re going in to Penguin Random House and pitching the team there, the CEO there, and the executive team and saying, “This needs to change,” and they’re saying, “I’m sorry, it can’t.”

[00:19:03] Yeah. And then Madeline, the CEO, ends up leaving Penguin Random House to co-found, and to found Authors Equity.

[00:19:10] James: Yeah.

[00:19:10] Nathan: So she’s like, “I can’t change it from the inside, but you’re right. Let’s…”

[00:19:14] James: I… You know, Atomic Habits goes well, so of course they wanna talk about doing a second book. And I was like, “All right, this time I think I’m, I’m gonna try to, like, do this the right way.”

[00:19:22] And, uh, so I asked for all these things that I thought were very reasonable. I had, like, I thought some really compelling arguments. You know, I probably went over the top, right? I like wrote like six pages about it and handed it to them. Said, “Everybody read this,” and, you know, whatever. Um, and, uh, they didn’t have any good replies, but they said, “We’re not gonna do it.”

[00:19:38] And, um, Madeline, to her credit, she was CEO of Penguin at that time, and she says now, she’s like, “I found myself, after work was over, siding more with the authors, but in my current seat I couldn’t do that.” And she has a history of being kind of on the forefront of publishing. She, you know, went to Amazon and helped launch the Kindle.

[00:19:56] She early in her career built one of the first websites that sold books on the internet. So she’s, you know, she’s been, uh, at these inflection points before, and I think she realized things have changed. Um, and so, you know, a year or two later she decides to leave, and she was like All right, what do you think about doing all this stuff that you said we should be doing?

[00:20:14] Um, and it’s been great. You know, like she brought her number two and we brought Don Weisberg who is the CEO of Macmillan and they… It’s so much better that they’re doing it than if I was doing it. Like I thought for a minute, oh, maybe I should found this company myself, but I would’ve been terrible at it.

[00:20:27] They’re, they’re amazing at it. And, uh, you know, she knows all the people who are just straight killers in the industry and so they’ve put together this amazing team and it’s, it’s worked out really well.

[00:20:37] Nathan: Yeah. That’s amazing. Okay. So Authors Equity’s published what? 25 books?

[00:20:41] James: Uh, th- we’re probably closer to like 50 now.

[00:20:43] Four- 40. Um, 40 nonfiction then we’ve got other stuff happening too like there’s romance lines and some other stuff that I’m not involved in but, um, yeah.

[00:20:51] Nathan: And then you have this idea of the Atomic Habits tipping point.

[00:20:55] James: Yeah.

[00:20:56] Nathan: What is

[00:20:56] James: that? Yeah, I ke- I tell the team there’s this, the, I’m waiting for the Atomic Habits inflection point which is the month that Authors Equity sells more copies than Atomic Habits does.

[00:21:04] And it almost happened like two months ago. I think it’ll happen sometime this year. But I, you know, I had this realization where I was like, I worked really hard on Atomic Habits for, you know, it took somewhere between three to six years to write, build the audience and the platform for 10 years and it went as well as it could possibly go, you know?

[00:21:21] Like it’s the best-selling book in the world for the last five years and in 18 months the publisher’s almost, you know, outpacing it. Right. And you just realize, oh some, some businesses scale very differently than others. You know, it doesn’t matter how hard you work as an author you’re never gonna outwork a publisher.

[00:21:37] The, the publisher’s publishing new books every month. Um, you just can’t, you can’t keep up with the pace. So that’s not to say, you know, one is better or worse than the other it’s just, um, it’s interesting to think about for all of our businesses the leverage that we have in certain ways and which businesses and which projects compound and scale in different ways than others do.

[00:21:55] And you know, I was exci- I, I mean this like s- sincerely, I would do Authors Equity even if it failed. Um, it is, is a project that I would be proud to be a part of even if it doesn’t work because I think the industry needs it and I think the publishers need somebody to push them and say, “It’s, the current setup is not right we need to have a new modern setup that works for, you know, the current reality.”

[00:22:17] Um, but I don’t think it will fail. I think it will be, I think it will be a really great business.

[00:22:22] Nathan: Yeah, I think the traction that in just in a, a year and a half is- Yeah … very impressive.

[00:22:26] James: Yeah.

[00:22:26] Nathan: So when I think about- Having the level of, uh, audience and attention, you can direct it towards any number of things in order to launch a business, right?

[00:22:36] I- the thing that I love about Authors Equity as a business is that you’re focused specifically on businesses, or on, on books that will sell more copies, hopefully, in year two than year one.

[00:22:46] James: Yeah.

[00:22:46] Nathan: And so these are the, the timeless books, is you end up building these assets. And a lot of friends of ours, like Ryan Holiday and Josh Kaufman and others, have talked about this idea of, of books as annuities.

[00:22:56] James: Mm.

[00:22:56] Nathan: Ones that just keep selling.

[00:22:57] James: Yep.

[00:22:58] Nathan: And so you end up directing your attention and your reputation and your time towards something that’s not a short-term cashflow play, but this long-term enduring project.

[00:23:09] James: I think writing books… It’s funny, you know, there’s the stereotype that like, “Oh, don’t be a writer, you’ll never make any money.”

[00:23:14] Um, I think writing books is one of the best business models. Now, it’s, that’s only true at the top end, right? It’s like a power law game. You know, the top 1% of books probably sell like half the copies, or maybe the top .1%. But, um, if I was gonna describe to you a business that requires no software updates, no updating once the product is made.

[00:23:34] Like, you just, you write it once and then it’s ready.

[00:23:36] Nathan: Um- Yeah, K has the same thing. We don’t-

[00:23:37] James: Yeah, sure. I’m just kidding. Yeah. Um, require, uh, can scale effectively infinitely. You know, can trans- you can translate it into any language, it can spread all around the world. Atomic Habit’s in, like, 68 languages or something.

[00:23:48] Um, has no customer service. If somebody doesn’t like it, they don’t come to me, they go to Barnes & Noble. They send it back to Amazon. I never hear about it. Um, and it’s just like, it has some incredible qualities. And it also has a very long half-life. You know, you don’t have to update the book, it just keeps selling and persisting.

[00:24:05] I would say probably some of the only things that are better, like, you know, we’ve joked before, a bank is probably better. Yep. Um, uh, I think music is probably better. Like, a hit song that, like, if you wrote a, you know, if you’re The Beatles or something, like, that probably is more, uh, persistent than a book would be.

[00:24:19] Um, but it’s a, it’s a really- We had

[00:24:21] Nathan: to dig to come up with options at dinner- Yeah … a few weeks ago. Yeah.

[00:24:24] James: It’s, it’s a great, it’s a great business.

[00:24:26] Nathan: Yeah. I love it. Okay, let’s take, uh, some questions from the audience. We have a mic right here in the center. You

[00:24:31] James: wanna step

[00:24:31] Nathan: right over there? And so if you wanna step up to the mic, feel free to form a line as well, um, and then we will take as many questions as we can.

[00:24:40] Um, we can’t see you, but we believe that you’re there. Yeah. We can see the glow of your badge, so…

[00:24:45] James: We can hear the warmth in your voice.

[00:24:48] Audience member: Awesome. Is this on? Good warmth. Is it working? Okay. Hey, uh, thanks for this. My name is Brian. I know you can’t see me. Hey. Uh, I got two questions. The second one is quick, but the first one is, I think Atomic Habits was so successful because of the way that you’re able to simplify things.

[00:25:01] So I’m curious to hear what your process is for taking the models, frameworks, and ideas, and then distilling them into something simpler.

[00:25:07] James: Yeah, that’s a great question. Um, thank you. Uh- Part of it, I think it just appeals to my personality. I like compressing things. I th- I think it’s kind of like a game, you know.

[00:25:18] So I’ll, um, you know, I ta- I’ve talked about this before. I, uh, at one point, I had 12 chapters for Atomic Habits, and so I wrote chapter one, chapter two, chapter three on an index card and laid them all out on the ground. And then I went to my bookshelf, and I grabbed whatever books were relevant for that chapter.

[00:25:32] Usually it was like three or four or five books, and they were all stacked right there, and then I thought, “All right. How can I take everything that’s like genuinely useful out of these books and compress it into this single chapter so that if you just read this chapter, you no longer have to read that book?”

[00:25:46] And I think that’s a good measure for what makes a book great is like how many other books can you make irrelevant? Um, and, you know, uh, you’re maybe never totally gonna get there, but I think it’s a good thing to strive for. So, um, I like that. I think it’s kind of, it’s kind of fun for my brain, I guess.

[00:26:03] Uh, so part of it is I think it just appeals to my style. Um, also, you would be surprised, like there, there’s not that much to take away most of the time. Um, you know, like you can… There’s just a lot of fluff in a lot of writing. Mine too. Like, you, you know, like you have to be ruthless about it. The first version of Atomic Habits was 710 pages or something like that and eventually got cut down to, you know, the finished copy’s like 230.

[00:26:30] Um, and yeah, like I just, I repeated myself a lot. I w- whatever. I just, I really didn’t want you to be able to say, “Oh, this book could have been a blog post.” So I kind of did the opposite and, you know, wrote like three books and then made sure it was, you know, condensed into one. So I think part of it’s a commitment to being really high signal, really low noise.

[00:26:47] And then there’s some stuff that’s just like playing with structure, uh, playing with the structure of like sentences. Like you can say a lot in a single sentence. If you, if you make it a game and you l- have a paragraph and then you’re like, “How can I say that in a tweet?” You can often get it compressed without losing very much.

[00:27:02] So I don’t know that there’s any magic to it other than just like coming back to it again and again and iterating, compressing, compressing, compressing. I also think there’s something that’s, uh… Reading really widely is a big part of it. Um, there’s this quote about Emerson where they say he reads like a hawk scanning a field for prey, and sometimes I, I felt like that’s like kind of how I was trying to be.

[00:27:24] You know, like I’m not reading a book to like get the whole book. I’m like trying to find like what are the two best pages that I can take out of this and compress and, you know, insert into there. So it’s a very different style of reading, um, that leads to that sort of expression. What’s your other question?

[00:27:41] Yeah. I, uh, got a little gift for you here. Okay.

[00:27:43] Audience member: Delusional Confidence if you don’t mind me coming up and, and handing it to you, if that’s all right.

[00:27:47] James: Yeah. Yeah, we’re good. Bring it on up. Thank you. All right. All right. Okay, next up.

[00:27:55] Audience member: All right. Hi, thank you all so much for your conversation. I- my name is Crystal, and this is my, I think, fourth year- Yeah

[00:28:04] to come to this conference, and I’ve met so many incredible people here. There’s a lot of relationships that have started here, so please lean in to all the people that you’re meeting. I know that you two met in, you know, a similar situation of just wanting to invest in yourselves and learn and get better.

[00:28:22] So I’m curious, over the years, how have you created lasting entrepreneur friends that you continue to invest in those relationships? What does that look like for y’all?

[00:28:34] James: I think the retreats are a huge part of it. You know, like we, we saw each other first at WDS. We met at a conference like this, but then we also put together a group of, I don’t know, six to eight people, um, that we met at that conference or at other places, and started hosting a, a retreat each year where we would get us together for two days or three days and just talk about how to grow our businesses and what we were dealing with and, you know, whatever, all, how do you write a good book and all that stuff.

[00:28:58] And, um- Yeah, those, just having a single touch point once a year I think is great. And then, you know, following each other’s work. I, I look back at some of those retreats and it’s crazy to see where everybody ended up now. And I, I’m like, “Yeah, I knew he was good.” You know? Like I… It’s, um, but it’s, it’s fun, you know?

[00:29:16] It’s, it’s really fun to be part of the journey with people who are doing exceptional work. So, um, I, I think just having even just a single touch point once a year where you get together in person is, is great.

[00:29:27] Nathan: Yeah, and those retreats don’t have to be something fancy. Like, our first one was a bunch of us going to Barrett’s family cabin.

[00:29:34] James: Yep.

[00:29:35] Nathan: Um, you drove over, a bunch of us flew into Atlanta, and, and we all- Yeah … showed up there in person. We just kept investing in each other’s businesses. And, and you could say, like, maybe we got really, really lucky with the group that we pulled together, or maybe we really intentionally invested in each other and, like, that was the result.

[00:29:52] But like, you just have to form and build that group and, and find, you know, six or eight people who you’re going to say, like, “Okay, we’re going to, like, really invest in each other to get to the point where…”

[00:30:03] James: I think there’s also, um, I try, you know, I never want anybody that I’m friends with to feel like there’s pressure to promote, you know, what I’m working on- Yeah

[00:30:12] or whatever. And like we, we try to be very clear about that. Like, we’re, we’re there for each other, but, like, there’s no expectation that it turns into some business outcome. Like, we’re, we’re mostly just there for each other first. And, um, especially over the long arc, you know, like, we’ve, we’ve been able to see this over, like, 10-plus years now.

[00:30:29] Uh, people’s businesses grow at different rates, um, and people have different moments in the spotlight, and people choose different projects. They wind one thing down, then spin another thing up. And, um, I think it’s fun to be there for all of it, and it’s also really important to not get envious about it at some point.

[00:30:46] You know, like, there’s, you know, there are points where you’re in the lead, and there are points where you feel like you’re way behind. And it’s not, it’s not really about that. Um, it should just be fun to be in the game together. And, um, so I think we’ve had a group that’s been pretty good about that.

[00:30:59] Nathan: Yep.

[00:31:00] And a bunch of us got to sit, uh, out on a patio. It was Ryan, James, Kayla, Barrett, and like we were just hanging out, uh, a little bit ago, so.

[00:31:09] James: Supposedly Nathan’s running a conference for hundreds of people, but-

[00:31:12] Nathan: But I was …

[00:31:13] James: s- sitting out in the sun this afternoon. Yeah. Thanks, Crystal.

[00:31:16] Audience member: Hi, James and Nana Barry.

[00:31:18] I’m Ellie from Taiwan. This is my second time to be here. Thanks for coming. It’s very nice to meet you. Um, I’ve noticed something interesting from running a 30 days creation challenge. Most people don’t quit because their lack of discipline. They quit because they start comparing themself to others. In Atomic Habits, identity is built through repeat actions.

[00:31:44] How can creators protect their identity while creating public?

[00:31:50] James: How can you protect your identity while operating in public? Yes.

[00:31:58] I think it has to be about the craft and about, um I find it really… It’s tricky to say this because comparison can be very useful. You know, like the way that you develop taste around things is by comparing. How do you know if your YouTube video is good or not? Well, it’s because you’ve seen good ones, and you can compare what you’re making to what was good.

[00:32:20] Like, Ira Glass has that famous quote about the gap between what you make and what your taste is. In, especially early in your career, there’s a gap between what your skill level is at and what you’re able to create and what your taste is at and what you know good work looks like, and you have to keep putting reps in to close that gap.

[00:32:37] Um, and so part of it is just knowing that that is true. But I think it can be very useful to compare, um, specific things: YouTube thumbnails, squat form in the gym, you know, I don’t know, strategies for building your email list, whatever. And it’s very unhelpful to compare big, broad things: your marriage, your net worth, your, you know, the state of your life.

[00:33:00] Like, if you, if you think, if you, if you think about anything long enough, you can convince yourself it’s terrible. And so, um, I think keeping it in a narrow bound, uh, and saying, “All right. I’m just gonna compare this little thing and see if I can try to figure out a way to improve,” that can be helpful. Um, but once you get big, it’s not, it’s not helpful.

[00:33:18] You know, you’re comparing a huge aspect of your life to somebody else’s success, but then you don’t see all the trade-offs that they’re making to make that a reality. Um, if you’re not gonna compare the whole picture, if you don’t wanna swap, you know, everything, then it’s not a fair comparison. So, um, I think that’s part of it.

[00:33:36] And then, uh, this is Timeless advice that I need to be told just as much as everybody else, but don’t compare to other people, compare to yourself. You know? Like, stop trying to be better than other people. Just try to be better than you were yesterday. And that’s really the only long-term game anyway, is can I be better than I was before?

[00:33:55] And if you keep the focus internal, then you improve. If you keep the focus external, then you compare, and it just becomes a spiral where you get trap- trapped in the, that mode of thought.

[00:34:05] Nathan: Oh, g- I, I think there’s a lot of thinking about the game that you’re playing and being deliberate about that. You get to choo- like, game selection really matters, and, uh, you know, I don’t know who it’s a quote of, but, uh, play stupid games, win stupid prizes.

[00:34:18] And so, like, think about those games that people are playing. Like, “Oh, I don’t wanna play that game. I wanna play my own game. I wanna do it for the love of the craft, for the impact that I can have.” And that’s gonna bring a lot more joy than saying, “Oh, I’m playing for a specific set of numbers or very specific outcome.”

[00:34:34] James: We talked about this yesterday a little bit. Um, I have a friend who told me, “You know, for our business, we like to draw a box around our ideal day. And then inside of that ideal day, we say, ‘Okay, how can we make the business as big as possible, reach the most people, and make the biggest impact?’ But not outside of it.”

[00:34:50] And I think a lot of the time what happens is you don’t draw a box. You don’t think about how do I want my days to look, and so then you just fall into the same comparison everybody else does. Oh, whose list is growing the fastest? Who raised the most money? Who has the most revenue? And you just start comparing stuff that leads to a daily life that you didn’t want anyway.

[00:35:07] But if you start by saying, “How do I want my days to look?” Then you’re playing your own game- Yeah … to your point, and you can start to say, “Yeah, like, somebody else is growing faster, but that’s fine ’cause, um, this is what I want my days to look like.” I think Charlie Munger has that quote where he says, “Someone will always be getting richer faster than you.

[00:35:24] This is not a tragedy.” Like, it’s, it’s fine. Play your own game. I love it. Thank you for the question.

[00:35:30] Audience member: Hey, guys. I’m Jonathan. On the topic of game selection, James, you chose to play the game of going with the traditional publisher when you already had, I think, around two hundred thousand subscribers when you signed the deal-

[00:35:39] James: Yeah

[00:35:39] Audience member: which is a very substantial amount. Can you walk us through the thought process of going that approach instead of self-publishing? Yeah,

[00:35:44] James: I almost self-published. I thought about it for, like, a year. Um- That’s

[00:35:47] Nathan: a little wild to think about how different things might have played out.

[00:35:51] James: Yeah. Yeah. I ultimately, the reason I did it, uh, was because…

[00:35:55] Well, it was kind of twofold. One, um, I decided that I was gonna try to hit the list, and at that point, now sometimes still very, very hard, a self-published book can get on. Um, it’s still pretty unlikely, but then it was a 0% chance. Um, and so I thought, all right, if I want from a business standpoint, I could self-publish future books, and I’ll try to s- uh, to traditionally publish this one, be it become a New York Times bestseller, and then I can have that status symbol for the rest of my career rather than doing the inverse and self-publishing 20 and then 15 years from now, you know, trying to be a, a bestselling author.

[00:36:33] So I thought, all right, probably better to try to get the status symbol earlier. As that was, that was part of the thinking. The second thing was, I’d never written a book before. I didn’t even really know that I wanted to be an author. And so I thought, well, let me try to find some people who have at least done this well before, so my agent, publisher, you know, people who had put out really good books, and they can help coach me along the way.

[00:36:54] And I did find a good team, and then I got a lot of good advice from them at various points, and I think there’s no doubt that Atomic Habits was the best thing that I had written when it came out. It was an order of magnitude better than the blog posts and things I was writing on my own. So having a team that helped with that process did lead to a better outcome.

[00:37:14] Um, so those were kind of the two main things that I was thinking at the time. The… on the other side, the reason that I was considering self-publishing is I had this story where I said, well How much would I really be giving up anyway? You know, like, if I’m on Amazon and Audible, isn’t that most of the books people sell?

[00:37:29] Like, what, what am I losing? Maybe ten percent of sales. Um, and now interestingly, you know, ten years later, the full arc of this since I co-founded Authors Equity, I actually have real numbers for it now ’cause we have a number of popular self-published books that have moved over to Authors Equity now.

[00:37:43] Almanac: An Overall, Ravikant self-published, now it’s published with Authors Equity. Simple Path to Wealth, sold five hundred thousand copies self-published, now it’s published with Authors Equity. Don’t Believe Everything You Think, same thing. So anyway, um, by looking at the numbers for those books, you give up probably at least twenty-five percent of your sales if you’re self-published by not being in airports, bookstores, Barnes & Noble, et cetera.

[00:38:06] Um, if it goes well, like Simple Path to Wealth is my favorite example of it, um, he moved over to us. We got it into Barnes & Noble and airports and all these other places. Um, as soon as the book went omni-channel and it was available everywhere, the Amazon and Audible sales also lifted because it’s almost like each book that’s out in the world is kinda like a little billboard and the profile of the book raised.

[00:38:29] He hit the New York Times list the first week with us, um, and now I think he’s two point six X his weekly sales. We, we’ve doubled his weekly sales. Um, so that’s kind of, you know, best case scenario. But you do, you do give up meaningful distribution by self-publishing. Um, you get to maintain control, you get to make the, more money per copy, but, um, but you give up meaningful distribution.

[00:38:52] And in the long run, the only way a book really sells millions of copies is through word of mouth. And so I feel like as an author, you probably don’t want to hamstring your distribution because that’s, that’s where the real success potentially lies.

[00:39:06] Audience member: Awesome. Thanks.

[00:39:07] James: Great. Yeah. Look forward to working with Authors Equity.

[00:39:07] Yeah. I signed with Authors Equity. I’m a big fan. Yeah. It’s

[00:39:07] Audience member: amazing. Yeah, we’re publishing

[00:39:14] James: Nathan’s book this fall

[00:39:17] Audience member: Um, hi, I’m Dr. Tiffany Shelton. I am a neuropsychologist. I work with women to build systems, so I have read Atomic Habits. I usually read it, like, once or twice a year. Um, but I have a writer’s questions to that effect. Since I read it so much, I’ve noticed that you can’t really go a paragraph in that book without getting some sort of metaphor, analogy, or story.

[00:39:40] Like, um, I think that’s what helps makes it so digestible. As a writer, though, in the process, do you have any tips on how to… how you mine for those stories, like the cycling story or the nurse, um, you know, that noticed her father-in-law had the stroke? Yep. And do you put, like, a time limit on yourself of how long you look for, like, the perfect story, metaphor, analogy for each point you wanna share-

[00:40:06] James: Yeah

[00:40:07] Audience member: without dragging out the writing?

[00:40:08] James: Process. Sure. Yeah, no, it’s fair. I mean, at some point, deadlines have to get met. Um, I’ve blown every deadline that’s been given to me, but I- In, in theory, they sound nice. Um, I, uh, I keep an open bank of stories and ideas in, uh, I, I use Evernote ’cause I’ve been doing it forever, but you would use Notion now.

[00:40:27] Um, I, uh… Okay, so very common nonfiction writer format is story, study, lesson. That’s, like, Malcolm Gladwell did it that way with his book. Like, it’s, it’s been done by many, many science writers. Lead off with some kind of story, explain the study or the science, and then finish with some type of takeaway. Um, I would say I started doing it that way, um, and now it’s…

[00:40:51] I would say it’s almost more like story, uh, principle, lesson, or story, principle, examples. That’s kind of most of the chapters in Atomic Habits follow that structure. The stories are really helpful bec- That’s what everybody remembers. I used to lead with the studies more, and nobody cares. Um, they, they want it to be scientifically grounded, but nobody remembers them.

[00:41:10] Yeah. Um, and so I think I want it to be scientifically based. I want it to be true, but the reader wants the story to express and distill the idea. Um- So usually what I have is I have one or the other. I have either the principle or the, the takeaways that I want people to get, and I just think, “Oh, this is a clever idea.

[00:41:29] I hope I write an article about this someday.” Or I have a story that I thought, “Wow, that sounded really cool. I, I don’t have a, an idea to pair with it yet, but I like that story.” So most of the notes in my file are one of those two things, and every now and then I’ll just go through them and start to match them up and say, “Oh, this like…

[00:41:46] maybe this is a story that could fit here.” Um, and it helps to have a, a big bank. You know, if you have 200 stories and you have 100 ideas, one of them probably matches up and could make a good, good article. I remember I read an article, um, like three years, uh, before I wrote the article, okay. I read this piece in The New York Times, and it mentioned, there was one sentence that mentioned this, uh, Greek, you know, figure Milo of Croton, and it was this story about how he raised a calf from birth, and he would lift the calf each day, and each day it got a little bit stronger as the, as the cow grew.

[00:42:21] And, um, I was like, “Oh, that’s an interesting story. I should kick that off as a…” And it sat there for three years before I had some… an idea that I was like, “Perfect, this is the Milo of Croton one.” And then I wrote the article and, you know, it went on the website or whatever. So it’s just a long time for those to get paired up.

[00:42:36] When I was working on the book, I probably had 80% of them already kind of mapped out, and then I had to go in search of the 20% of stories that I needed. And I don’t have a perfect answer for you other than to say, I just tried to read as widely as I could to surface a bunch of stuff. Then eventually things kind of come together.

[00:42:54] Um, I do think AI can be helpful for this. I used it the other day. I, I said, um, I needed like a… I thought an airplane crash story would be like a good start for this piece I was, uh, thinking about. And I was like, “What are five airplane crashes that most people don’t know about but, you know, were interesting or whatever?”

[00:43:10] And two of them I had heard of, but three I had not. And so I was like, one of them I went to the Wikipedia and I was like, “This is great. This is a perfect…” So I think it can be good for some of those research tasks like that to pull, pull out certain things.

[00:43:21] Audience member: Awesome. Thank you so much.

[00:43:22] James: Yeah.

[00:43:22] Audience member: Thank you. Hey, thank you, Nathan and James, for this amazing conversation that we can all be a part of.

[00:43:28] I have a simple question, or maybe it’s not, but what is different about Authors Equity? Uh, I have a book coming out next year. It’s traditionally published, but I’m in this f- I’m playing a game. It’s the long game. It’s gonna be a fun game and an infinite game. Yeah. But, so I’m kind of curious, what is, what is different with Authors Equity?

[00:43:49] Can I

[00:43:49] Nathan: take this one really quick? Yeah, go ahead.

[00:43:51] James: Yeah.

[00:43:51] Nathan: The author side?

[00:43:51] James: Yeah. I mean, you’re an author as well, but- Yeah, what’s your experience been?

[00:43:54] Nathan: Um, so first the, the royalties are inverted, so after the expenses of the book, which we work very closely on, the author makes 70% versus the publisher making 30, so that’s almost a perfect inversion of the traditional model.

[00:44:08] There’s way more control, so we’re talking cover design, all of the stuff, a lot of details in it. Um, the team that you work with is handcrafted around the book, and so that means that instead of the acquiring editor who happened to be the f- the person who bid the most, uh, to get the book also being the person who shapes the b- Like, if you don’t have a good fit there, that’s really rough.

[00:44:32] Um, whereas in this case, you know, Authors Equity hired an editor specifically for this project. I used one editor to develop the initial concepts. We made a ton of progress together. I learned a lot from him. Then we got to a point where we were kinda stuck, and so I went back to Madeline and I said, “Hey, I think it’s time for a new editor,” and she was like, “Great.

[00:44:48] I have this other guy. His name’s Zach. He’s amazing. Let’s get him in.” And then for the next six months, you know, Zach and I worked together and we achieved another level of progress on the book. That was really good.

[00:44:58] James: Which you couldn’t do in a traditional deal. You know, you’d have to blow the deal up and move to a different imprint or whatever.

[00:45:02] Nathan: It’d be, it’d be a mess.

[00:45:03] James: Yeah.

[00:45:04] Nathan: Um, the other thing is I have heard over the last decade creator after creator talk about how they had all these great ideas for marketing and everything else, and they went to their publisher and, like, they were maybe able to get, like, half of one idea through Um, I go to these marketing meetings with Authors Equity, and I’m like: “Hey, what’s working right now?”

[00:45:21] And they’re like: “Okay, so Joseph Nguyen did this thing on TikTok marketing that worked, so we turned that whole thing into a system ’cause we learned from him. Here’s what’s working.” And I’m like, “Okay, I just…” I mean, I’m immersed in the creator economy as much as anyone, and I’m, like, taking notes in these meetings with the publisher of, like, what’s working in marketing, uh, how Amazon ads are working, like, all of these things.

[00:45:40] So I am showing up to a master class about what’s working in book marketing every, uh, you know, every month that we meet, and then it’s just an absolute in- like reversal of what normally happens. Uh, and I think it’s just because, you know, like, Madeline and the rest of the Authors Equity team, they’ve been in the publishing world for decades, and they know who all the best people are.

[00:46:00] And so when they went and started a new thing, they said , “Great, let’s just add… It’ll take you.” You know, there’s only what? 15 to 20 people on the team?

[00:46:06] James: Yep.

[00:46:07] Nathan: But they’re like-

[00:46:08] James: Probably the high- highest talent density group that I’ve been a part of. They just picked all the best people and, you know, were able to bring them together.

[00:46:14] Nathan: Yeah. It

[00:46:15] James: was-

[00:46:15] Nathan: And I would say there’s a lot of downstream effects that people don’t realize of inverting the royalty model, and one of my favorites is being able to use advertising, uh, to point to the book. So James, I’ll let you talk about that one. Um-

[00:46:26] James: Yeah. So, um, because Authors Equity is a profit share, um, we can run ads from the top of the profit share rather than trying to run ads on our cut.

[00:46:36] You know, like Penguin or Harper or whoever, they’re… If they’re gonna run Facebook ads, they’re thinking, “Okay, we only get to keep four bucks a book, so, you know, to get this to be profitable is very hard.” But, um, we’ve, we have a lot of profitable campaigns going on right now for Amazon ads and Facebook ads and so on.

[00:46:51] Um, and we’re moving thousands of extra copies every week for authors because of it, and it’s just because the profit share model allows for it rather than the author trying to do it out of their little slice or the publisher trying to do it out of their little slice. Um, and so that’s been helpful, too.

[00:47:05] I think Nathan’s answer was great. I… The way I would summarize it is, what do you give up? Why would you not go with Authors Equity? There’s no advance. That’s the single biggest difference. Um, what do you gain? You make two to three X more per copy sold. Um, arguably, I think the best team in the industry to make the best possible book.

[00:47:24] You get the widest possible distribution. You know, we’ve only been publishing for, like, 18 months. We have more books for sale in Target than Simon & Schuster does. That, like, that shouldn’t even be possible. Um, but it’s… That, that is just a function of the team being so good and having all the right connections.

[00:47:38] And, uh, and then the last thing is it’s very, as you mentioned, it’s author-centric. It’s author-led. So everything is the author… The author is the one who has final say on the cover, on the title, on the subtitle, on how much you wanna spend on the marketing budget, like, all, all of it. Um, and so it’s just a It’s a realization that authors have more power now than they ever had before, and authors have a bead on the audience more than they’ve ever had before.

[00:48:02] They own the direct relationship with their e-readers more than they ever had before. And so, um, naturally, they should be the ones making the majority of the profit and driving many of the decisions. Now, we still have opinions, and we have a really talented team, so I think we can provide a lot of value.

[00:48:18] Um, I… Man, before Authors Equity launched, I tried so many different arguments to get Penguin or whoever to do this. I came up… I had spreadsheets, like, explaining how much value I thought each person provided and why, and I… Publishers still do meaningful things. Um, but I think the answer is they deserve about 30% of the money.

[00:48:35] Um, and so this is a new model that represents that.

[00:48:39] Nathan: I love that. We have just a few minutes left, left, and thank you, Nick. Um, we’re gonna make time for the, the, I think it’s three questions in line. Yeah, go ahead. We can do these. Yeah, let’s do these three. Um, so we’ll do

[00:48:46] James: those, those

[00:48:47] Nathan: three. Go ahead.

[00:48:50] Audience member: Hi, I’m Michelle from Chicago.

[00:48:52] I love your books. For someone reinventing their business after already building an audience, what daily habits matter most for rebuilding momentum without burning out?

[00:49:05] James: The ones that come to mind immediately, I say some kind of habit of reflection review. Um, you know, I, I’m– many of you are probably like me.

[00:49:14] I have a really strong work ethic, and that’s great. Working hard is really helpful, but it also can become a crutch. You know, at some point, that became my answer to any problem. If I face a problem, it’s like, “Well, I’ll just work my way out of it.” And you can do that for a little while, but if you’re already working hard, maybe you can grind and work ten percent harder, but you can’t work ten X harder.

[00:49:35] You can’t work a hundred percent harder. And so at some point, you need to make time to ensure that you are working on the thing that is the highest and best use. And there’s no way to just… If you, if you just keep your head down and work really hard, it’s so unlikely that you’ll work on the best thing today.

[00:49:52] Um, so you have to create a little bit of space to step outside and above the business and say, “Is this really the highest and best use of my time? Um, am I focused on the right thing?” So habit of reflection review. Um, I would… I mean, it’s a little bit weird, but I would say a habit of working out or so-something to reset yourself.

[00:50:08] I had so many days early in my entrepreneurial career, even now, where you feel like, “Man, this day was just a waste. I didn’t get anything done.” But at least I got a good workout in, and I can feel decent about myself and go to bed and wake up again tomorrow and try, you know, try again. Um, so something to balance yourself.

[00:50:24] And then, um, the last one I would say is, I, I would say reading, but it’s not– I don’t mean it just as books. Um, almost every thought that you have is downstream from what you consume. So we don’t usually give it that kind of weight, but when you choose who to follow on social media, you’re choosing your future thoughts because that’s what’s gonna fill up the feed in two weeks or a month or whatever.

[00:50:47] Um, when you choose what podcast to listen to or what book to read, you’re choosing your future thoughts. And so the more carefully that you curate that diet of what you’re consuming, the more carefully you curate what you’re putting in, um, the better the outputs are. If you want better, more creative, more productive thoughts for the business, you need better, more creative, more productive inputs for what you take in.

[00:51:08] So I’d say habit of reflection review, some kind of working out or something to balance yourself and, uh, try to improve the– your consumption habits.

[00:51:17] Audience member: Thank you. I also am an author, and I would love to gift you my book if you can. Yeah, let’s

[00:51:21] James: do it. You got it right now? Yep.

[00:51:23] Nathan: All right. Thanks, Michelle

[00:51:30] Thank you Go ahead.

[00:51:33] Audience member: Hi, this is Sarah from Taiwan and four of the Taiwanese fro- uh, with Ellie. And, uh, uh, nice to meet you, uh, Nathan and James. Uh, your book, uh, Atom- Atomic Habits helps people to find out their, uh, identity. And my work, uh, I’m, I’m an author, uh, author of, uh, Life, uh, Strategy Equation, and my work is to help people, uh, find out their strengths, uh, passion, and value through, uh, this equation.

[00:52:05] So my question for you and, uh, Nathan, is that, uh, w- what is your mission of life?

[00:52:12] Nathan: Small question.

[00:52:14] Audience member: Yeah, it’s be- because it’s my topic- It’s awful … uh, of the book. It’s my title of the-

[00:52:18] James: Yeah. Yeah. Thanks for making it easy. Um- I, uh, you know, it’s an ever-changing answer, but, uh, my current answer is that, in a business sense at least, um, I’m really trying to increase the distribution of great ideas in the world.

[00:52:34] And so, you know, for me individually, that means, uh, the best stuff that I come across, what I read and write and share, I’m try- I’m trying to share the best ideas that I can find. And that doesn’t mean it’s the only way to do it, and it may not even be the best way to do it, but it’s the best that I’ve found so far, and so I’m gonna try to share that.

[00:52:52] And Authors Equity, I think, is a chance for me to try to do that at a, at a wider scale, where I’m not only trying to spread the best ideas I have, but also the best ideas that other people have. And, you know, ideas are really powerful, and having the right one or the right mindset, coming across the right idea at the right time can change the shape of a business or even the shape of your life.

[00:53:12] And so the more that I can spread good ideas in the world, I think the, the better I feel about that.

[00:53:19] Nathan: I experienced a lot growing up of just the impact of the lack of money and how much that, of stress and anxiety that causes. And I feel like over the last couple of decades, I learned that making money is a skill, and that that’s a level of pain and anxiety that you don’t have to go through.

[00:53:35] I feel like I, I can step back and observe the world and the physics of business and how money works. And so, uh, that’s Kit’s mission, is to make it easy to earn a living as a creator. And I think with this book, um, what I’m really trying to do is to map out everything that I’ve learned. And the, the target audience for this book is, like, 14-year-old me.

[00:53:57] But, uh, I’m really happy for all of you to read it as well, because I want people to have complete financial freedom and to have the clarity, uh, on how to get there.

[00:54:06] James: And if you want more on

[00:54:06] Nathan: that, Ladders of Wealth is out in December.

[00:54:08] James: Yeah,

[00:54:09] Audience member: I will have that. Thank you. And thank you, Nathan, for creating the Kit.com.

[00:54:13] I’m the user from 2021, so I think I’m the loyal user for your platform. Awesome. Thank

[00:54:19] Nathan: you.

[00:54:19] Audience member: Yeah, and I will share you, uh, my book later, uh, Jim. Thank you.

[00:54:24] Nathan: Perfect. Thank you. All right. Thank you. All right, Gloria, saving the best for

[00:54:27] Audience member: last. Well, just a quick question. Um, do you work with authors who’ve already been self-published, um, like, and who’ve published maybe a whole bunch of books themselves?

[00:54:36] James: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I mean, Authors Equity has probably published 40-ish books so far, and I would say maybe eight to 10 of those have been self-published, um, which we’ve transitioned over and got retail distribution for and scaled them out or made an updated edition or whatever. Um, and then, you know, another 30 are your typical, you know, sign a deal and write a new book and so on.

[00:54:57] So, um, yeah, it’s for, it’s- I think it’s for everybody, and hopefully at some point it, it will be for everybody.

[00:55:04] Nathan: And the, the thing that I would say from talking to you and Madeline is… So if anyone’s wondering, like, what type of pitch is compelling to Authors Equity, ’cause you, you guys can’t take unlimited books, right?

[00:55:16] You can only produce so many.

[00:55:17] James: I would, I would argue part of the issue with traditional publishing is that scale and quality, uh, it’s very hard for those to coexist. So, you know, Penguin publishes 1,000 books a year, Harper publishes 500 books a year, Simon & Schuster publishes 500 books a year. If you’re gonna publish that many, it’s just hard for some parts of it to not feel like manufacturing.

[00:55:36] Um, you know, the next book is always coming down the pipeline. So if you want the high touch, carefully crafted, you know, lot of interaction with the team and really care about each product, you can’t do a ton. So we’ll probably do, you know… Right now we’re doing 25 or 30 a year, maybe it’s 50, but it’s not, it’s not 500.

[00:55:53] Nathan: Yeah. So the, the big things that I’ve heard you say that, that matter are, is this a book that, you know, you can put real marketing resources behind, but, but really will it sell more copies in year two than year one? Like, does it have the opportunity to be a timeless book that’s going to keep building over time?

[00:56:11] What other things would you say that you’d be looking for in a book that would be a good fit for Authors Equity?

[00:56:16] James: I mean, I usually say there’s kind of three big boxes I like to see checked. Like, one is some type of platform. And of course every publisher wants to see, oh, who has a huge podcast or who has a big newsletter?

[00:56:26] But I actually think it’s deeper than that. It’s not just about, do you have a big audience? It’s also the act of growing an audience is evidence that the ideas resonate, and they actually have something. Um, and that, for me, that’s almost more important, is if your content has been run through a filter, then you can trust that it’s good and the book will actually has legs.

[00:56:46] So some type of platform content that’s been run through a filter. The second thing is, like, do you actually have something meaningful to say in the chapters? A lot of people have, like… They’re really good marketers, they have a big audience, they have a good, like a catchy title, but can you actually deliver on the, at the chapter level?

[00:57:02] And then I would say the third thing is, like, the positioning, the packaging, the vessel for the book. Do you have a compelling angle on it? Um, you know, many people have written about habits before. Before Atomic Habits came out, calling a habit atomic would’ve been kinda weird. You know, you wouldn’t… You might’ve said little or small or something like that, but you wouldn’t have called…

[00:57:21] You wouldn’t have said, “I have an atomic habit.” And that’s good. That was like a new angle, a fresh angle that I could have, where I could own that phrase, own that real estate. And even though most of the ideas in the book have been covered in many places for hundreds of years, um, the packaging of it was fresh enough.

[00:57:38] It was a, it… I hear from a lot of readers just say, “I already do things like this,” or, you know, “I’ve always believed stuff like this, but I’ve never quite heard it put that way.” And I think that’s a good, you know, way of trying to A good way of trying to describe what are you looking for. Yeah.

[00:57:52] Nathan: I like that.

[00:57:53] Well, um, James, we should let people go to a happy hour now and all of that, but couple things. First, thanks for being a good friend for the last, like, 14 years. Thanks for publishing my book. Thanks for being Kit’s number one customer. Appreciate all of that, and thank you for making the trip back to Boise to hang out with all of us.

[00:58:10] James: Yeah. Thank you. Um, I appreciate the opportunity, and, uh, I’ll let you guys go with just kinda one, one parting thought, which is I feel like in a lot of ways the two timeframes that matter most in life are 10 years and one hour, and 10 years is shorthand for, like, all the big meaningful stuff in life. Like, pick whatever it is for you, but, you know, raising kids that you’re proud of, or building a successful company, or having a thriving marriage, or getting in the best shape of your life.

[00:58:37] What- whatever the thing is, it’s probably a multi-year, sometimes a multi-decade, um, quest, and one hour is shorthand for how can you do something in the next hour that feeds that 10-year vision. You know, how can you s- do something today that pays off for you in a decade? And I think if you can live in those two frames of mind, if you can both think longer term than most people will, and also still have that bias towards short-term action and not let the days go by.

[00:59:03] You know, if you can find a way to, to never let a day pass without doing something that’s gonna pay off for you in a decade, um, you can end up in a really good spot, and usually it doesn’t take 10 years. Usually you only gotta wait two or three, and you’re surprised by how much progress you made. So thank you all.

[00:59:16] Appreciate it, and, uh, it’s always fun to hang out with entrepreneurs, so thanks. Thank you.

[00:59:21] Nathan: If you enjoyed this episode, go to YouTube and search The Nathan Barry Show, then hit subscribe and make sure to like the video and drop a comment. I’d love to hear what some of your favorite parts of the video were, and also just who else you think we should have on the show.

[00:59:35] Thank you so much for

[00:59:36] listening.

[00:00:00] Ben: Don’t focus on pure personal brand play as your primary source of revenue because if I get hit by a bus, most of that disappears.

[00:00:08] Nathan: If you ever wanted to see behind the scenes of a massive creator empire, this episode is for you.

[00:00:13] Ben: My goal is to have everything that we’ve just talked about right here be optional when I get out of bed in the morning.

[00:00:19] Nathan: Ben Greenfield has been podcasting since 2008, back when only a handful of health shows existed online. Today, he runs a stack of businesses from rural Idaho with that same show still at the center of it all.

[00:00:29] Ben: Total revenue for the podcast, 300K per month.

[00:00:33] Nathan: We break down every dollar he earns up on the whiteboard in a pie chart.

[00:00:36] Ben: Coaching comes out to 90K, 40 to 50K. It’s around 40K, 15K, 5K a month.

[00:00:42] Nathan: This totals up to 500,000 a month. Yeah. $6 million a year.

[00:00:45] Ben: Yeah.

[00:00:46] Nathan: But the craziest part is this is just one pie chart. This is actually the small business.

[00:00:50] Ben: Yeah. It doesn’t feel small.

[00:00:52] Nathan: A seven-figure business, an eight-figure business, and then-

[00:00:56] Ben: Shockingly, this doesn’t exist.

[00:00:57] The biggest key is make it not dependent on you. Set the ego aside. Doesn’t have to have your face, your name, your brand.

[00:01:05] Nathan: I love that.

[00:01:05] Ben: This is gonna be super fun. This is the first podcast I’ve ever done where I can talk about this.

[00:01:12] Nathan: And I’m excited to break down all the revenue in your business. But first, you started podcasting in 2008.

[00:01:19] Ben: Uh, yeah.

[00:01:20] Nathan: Things have changed

[00:01:21] Ben: a little bit since then. Thank you for making me feel and sound old. There was easily less than 100 podcasts.

[00:01:26] Nathan: Right.

[00:01:27] Ben: And maybe, like, four or five health and fitness podcasts, which was kinda like my niche.

[00:01:31] And you had to, like, code your RSS feed and submit it to Apple and, like, wait two weeks. And I forget the name of the website, but it was basically, like, a feed reader website that you could feed your podcast into- Right … every time it broke, which was, like, every month. Because typically, like, the code was over 100 megabytes or whatever.

[00:01:48] And yeah, it was like Wild West of podcasting, and it started lunch break at the personal training studio that I was running. I would open up my laptop and do, like, talking head videos of strength and conditioning research. Okay. And just, like, push that out there. 14 episodes in, I did an interview with a professional triathlete, uh, ’cause I was super into triathlon at the time.

[00:02:12] And then most of the podcasts from there on out wound up either being interview or, like, call in or write in Q&A episodes. But yeah, like, twice a year for 18 years.

[00:02:25] Nathan: Yeah. That’s amazing. I mean- Yeah … most people who say, like, “Oh, I was podcasting in the early days,” are not doing it today. Like, there’s a lot of people who come- Yeah

[00:02:31] and go from the industry.

[00:02:32] Ben: Yeah.

[00:02:33] Nathan: But to stay consistent is impressive, and we’ll get into- Yeah … the business

[00:02:37] Ben: and- Yeah. I’m just stubborn and stupid, and, uh… No, but, but I mean, like, yeah, we were even talking before, like, I, I… Like, it’s my favorite thing. Mm-hmm. Like, I get to either read a book and know that I get to talk to the author of the book, who normally otherwise would never have given me the time of day for an hour- Right

[00:02:52] and a half. Rinse, wash, and repeat for some, like, physiologist or coach or therapist or whatever. Um, and yeah, you talk to super interesting people.

[00:03:00] Nathan: And so- What was revenue like in the, those early days? Like, do you remember-

[00:03:03] Ben: Like revenue of the product?

[00:03:04] Nathan: Yeah, and, and just of your, your online venture.

[00:03:07] Ben: Oh, well, I was doing well as a personal trainer.

[00:03:09] Yeah. I was making, like, a little over $100,000- Mm-hmm … as a personal trainer running these two gyms, mostly with, like, group coaching.

[00:03:16] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:03:16] Ben: It was just training, right? No supplement sales or anything like that. But basically, all of my training was kinda SaaS-based, so people would sign up for a monthly program with me.

[00:03:26] Yeah. They would get X number of visits, and they’d get group coaching. And so I- Was doing okay as a personal trainer, but again, like working a lot of hours. And then leading up to this triathlon training program that I had made, I was maybe making another, like, maybe like 60 to 70 bucks a week on, like, online book sales with this Shape 21 was the name of this one.

[00:03:51] So I had the Ironman race week, launch week, where I was actually racing, and so I was new on X, formerly Twitter back in the day, and I mean, I went as far as, like, pre-scheduled tweets like, “Hey, I’m coming out of the water right now. Big smile on my face,” you know? And, “I used my Triathlon Dominator program,” you know, to complete…

[00:04:13] And it was, it was originally called the CEO Triathlon program, but I got a cease and desist from some company that owned, like, CEO Triathlon. So I-

[00:04:19] Nathan: Okay.

[00:04:20] Ben: I renamed it Triathlon Dominator. So long story short is, like, for race day and the six days following race week, I made about 48K in sales of that program.

[00:04:31] $97, uh, digital program, uh, 197 physical product shipped by disc.com in Texas.

[00:04:37] Nathan: So you made 50% of your annual income-

[00:04:39] Ben: Yeah, in like- … in- Not really in six days- Yeah … ’cause it took me like eight months to make it. Yeah. But, um, the idea, of course, the light bulb moment for me was like, “Wait, I can take my IP, I can put it online, I can do this in my underwear at home, and I could maybe step into a different chapter of life where my kids are literally twin boys about to be born, and I can actually have, like, a home office and do this stuff at home.”

[00:05:01] And that’s what I started doing. Like, I rinsed, washed, and repeated that program, which, you know, it had things like forum support and ongoing affiliate revenue based on my relationships with, like, wetsuit manufacturers and bike manufacturers and supplement companies baked into it. So the LTV of the customer went beyond the 97 or the 197 initial purchase.

[00:05:24] But then I continued to grow my list and I created the Marathon Dominator program, uh, a knee pain program, a low back pain program. I probably had like seven or eight different- Yeah … programs that I just started selling online as an online content creator. Had the podcast going at the same time. Wasn’t selling any ads or anything on that.

[00:05:43] But, um, yeah, a, a big part of, like, my initial exposure to just, like, getting sponsored, especially for triathlon and making a little bit of side money as an affiliate, was doing the, the travel blogging stuff.

[00:05:59] Nathan: So let’s actually put a pin in that now. Yeah. I’m thinking about the, the event that you went to where someone maps out, here’s everything that- Yeah

[00:06:05] here’s how the world works- Yeah … on an online business.

[00:06:08] Ben: Yeah.

[00:06:08] Nathan: I wanna jump up on the board and basically do that for people who are watching, right? And so- Yeah … now we have this opportunity ’cause you’re up for sharing revenue numbers and all that to basically give, pay that gift forward to a bunch of creators watching and- Oh, yeah.

[00:06:20] For sure … say, “Here’s what it looks like at scale.” Yeah. All right. Yeah. Let’s do it. So you have a few different businesses going on. We’re gonna try to simplify it- Yeah … a little bit. Over here, uh, let’s get into… We’ll just call this, like, Ben Greenfield life. Okay. Is that-

[00:06:32] Ben: Yeah …

[00:06:32] Nathan: that’s this world?

[00:06:33] Ben: Okay.

[00:06:33] Nathan: This is the, the content side of the business probably that most listeners would relate to the most, I think.

[00:06:39] Give me a sense of the audience and platforms. What platforms are most important to you and-

[00:06:43] Ben: Okay …

[00:06:44] Nathan: how many subscribers?

[00:06:44] Ben: Yeah. So let’s, let’s just jump straight into revenue and size then. Okay. So number one would be the podcast. Part of it is not because I’m good at it. I’ve just been doing it for so freaking long that it’s just, like, a very, very slow rolling snowball.

[00:07:00] I think I’ve got about 120-some million downloads-

[00:07:05] Nathan: Okay …

[00:07:05] Ben: total of that podcast.

[00:07:08] Nathan: What would you say- monthly downloads are for the podcast?

[00:07:11] Ben: 275,000 per month. That’s for two episodes per week.

[00:07:16] Nathan: Instagram?

[00:07:16] Ben: 450,000-ish. 123 on YouTube, thousand. Twitter, I think it’s around 150,000 now. Email is, like, like, a quarter million.

[00:07:26] Nathan: That’s a good sense of who we’ve got in the audience, or the scale of the audience.

[00:07:30] Ben: Right. Right.

[00:07:31] Nathan: Let’s talk revenue. Okay, so the big one is the podcast. Yeah. What revenue do you do on a monthly basis?

[00:07:37] Ben: Yeah. So-

[00:07:37] Nathan: Everything tied to the podcast and advertising …

[00:07:39] Ben: yeah, for Ben Greenfield Life, my personal brand, podcasting would definitely be the biggest.

[00:07:43] The podcast revenue would be pre, mid, and post-roll ads- Okay … throughout the podcast, you know, anywhere from four to six per episode. Yep. A newsletter feature in the weekly- Ooh … roundup newsletter that goes out once a week, depending on the package that someone signs up for, ’cause there’s different levels of packages.

[00:08:02] Sidebar ad on articles on the website, ’cause typically we’ve got about four long form articles per month that come out. They would also be getting, uh, social reels.

[00:08:13] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:08:13] Ben: Social story, so there’s the social media piece, and then, uh, they can also buy whitelisting. So they can take- Explain what you mean by whitelisting

[00:08:21] an ad. Like, they’re, they’re basically buying NIL, name, image, likeness, to be able to run an ad for three months or six months or 12 months or however long of a contract, I mean, advertising contract that they’ve signed up for. So because of that, the actual package that my partnerships team, which consists of two people, would sell to a sponsor goes way beyond just, like, “Hey, here’s our, here’s our CPM, our cost per thousand downloads,” and instead, like, “Here’s the full package that you get.

[00:08:53] We go way beyond just, like, selling a podcast ad for you.”

[00:08:56] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:08:56] Ben: So total revenue for that type of scenario for the podcast right now is at about 300K per month.

[00:09:03] Nathan: Okay. That’s awesome.

[00:09:04] Ben: Um, that’s basically for sponsors, for advertisers. It’s not like- Products I’m selling personally, that’s what-

[00:09:10] Nathan: And so that, yeah, that’s a substantial- You

[00:09:12] Ben: know, red light therapies, and coffee enemas, and all the- all the things.

[00:09:15] Yeah.

[00:09:15] Nathan: That’s that side. What’s, uh, the next biggest bucket?

[00:09:18] Ben: So when I was racing triathlon and doing personal training, my biggest source of income was coaching.

[00:09:25] Nathan: Okay.

[00:09:26] Ben: And I still do some coaching. So I coach a limited number of clientele, and then Life Enterprises is the holding company for Ben Greenfield Life, and Life Enterprises owns Triumph Coaching.

[00:09:37] And under Triumph Coaching, I personally coach eight people, and then I also do one-off consults with people- Okay … throughout the week. So somebody might hop on with me for 20 or 30 minutes or sometimes an hour to talk about, like, blood biomarkers, health, fitness goals, whatever. So coaching comes out to about 90K a month.

[00:09:56] Okay. And that’s either recurring revenue or a la carte coaching calls. That is actually an area that we are actively trying to build. Um- Nice … adding more coaches, scaling the coaching program. Mm-hmm. Uh, and we are adding next month group coaching.

[00:10:13] Nathan: Okay. And then as we come up here, what’s the next? We’re getting to some smaller slices

[00:10:17] Ben: of the pie.

[00:10:17] Okay. Smaller slices of the pie. If we really want to, like, rabbit hole a little bit, technically I have, like, Ben Greenfield Life, which is the content piece.

[00:10:24] Nathan: Okay.

[00:10:24] Ben: Ben Greenfield LLC is where I do, like, my advising, uh, my speaking, and my books. And so advising, speaking, and books, um, those would all be other pieces of the pie.

[00:10:35] Advising, that would be like literally a monthly fee that companies pay me to give them, uh, as the name implies, advice. Uh, that’s around 40K

[00:10:44] a

[00:10:44] Nathan: month. Okay.

[00:10:44] Ben: Speaking is, depending on the month, anywhere from 40 to 50K per month. That would mean like, you know, traveling and giving a keynote. Sometimes there’s like online Zoom appearances, things like that.

[00:10:55] But basically just, like, getting on stage, giving a talk, getting on an airplane. So yeah, speaking and advising fit into those categories.

[00:11:03] Nathan: That’s awesome. What are the small categories?

[00:11:04] Ben: They’re even more teeny-tiny pieces. I, under Life Enterprises, have kind of like what w- you could consider to be like the Facebook of health- Okay

[00:11:13] which is Life Network, which is a membership-based community where experts in whatever, holistic dentistry to biohacking to fitness, um, have content that they put out for people, whether it’s ad-free podcasts or articles or videos. That is mostly a freemium play, although some people upgrade to premium for access to fewer ads, and that kicks off around 5K a month.

[00:11:37] That feeds into Life Market, which would be more of like the Amazon of health, and that’s where people are buying like curated products. Like everything from like, you know, skin and beauty products to supplements to bars to powders. Red light pantless. And that’s like around… Yeah, so that’s around 15K a month.

[00:11:53] Okay. So, um- That’d

[00:11:55] Nathan: be the affiliate side.

[00:11:56] Ben: That’s… Yeah, that’s kind of an affiliate play that goes beyond affiliate revenue that might be kicked off from advertising relationships that are part of the podcast. Oh,

[00:12:04] Nathan: okay. ‘

[00:12:04] Ben: Cause when someone signs up for an ad package, right, part of their ad package would be, well, yeah, you’re gonna pay X dollars per month for running an ad or for whitelisting, but then we do get a certain percentage of the sales that are generated.

[00:12:16] Nathan: Actually, I wanna take a step back and just look at this as a whole.

[00:12:18] Ben: Yeah. ‘

[00:12:18] Nathan: Cause we’ve got both-

[00:12:18] Ben: Did, did we give everything? Uh, oh, book, book sales.

[00:12:21] Nathan: Books.

[00:12:22] Ben: Make a ton of money.

[00:12:23] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:12:23] Ben: How, how much money

[00:12:24] Nathan: are we printing

[00:12:24] Ben: on books? Yeah. Uh, I make around 5K a month on book sales. But that’s literally like 13 books, like all combined.

[00:12:31] Nathan: Okay, so we’ve got podcasts really all advertising and sponsorships- Mm-hmm … is 300K. Yeah. Coaching is big at 90K.

[00:12:37] Ben: Yeah,

[00:12:37] Nathan: yeah. Uh, and then advising and speaking are 40K-

[00:12:40] Ben: Mm-hmm …

[00:12:40] Nathan: uh, or so each. Affiliates would be next at 15K.

[00:12:43] Ben: Right.

[00:12:43] Nathan: And then you’ve got the Life Network and books at 5K.

[00:12:46] Ben: Right.

[00:12:46] Nathan: Yeah, there’s a lot going on here.

[00:12:48] And I guess- Yeah … just to be clear, all of these numbers that I wrote up here, they’re all monthlies.

[00:12:52] Ben: Um, that, that is kind of like the personal brand revenue with a little bit of that personal brand intermingled with-

[00:12:58] Nathan: Right …

[00:12:59] Ben: Life Network, which is like other experts, and Life Market, which doesn’t just rely on me to drive traffic.

[00:13:05] Nathan: Yeah, so that makes sense.

[00:13:05] Ben: Yeah.

[00:13:06] Nathan: So this totals up to basically 500,000 a month- Yeah … uh, which is about- Yeah … $6 million a year.

[00:13:12] Ben: Yeah.

[00:13:12] Nathan: And so that’s the, the personal brand side. Right. I wanna dive in on the, the advertising sponsorships, all of that.

[00:13:19] Ben: Yeah.

[00:13:19] Nathan: Because there’s a few things that you’ve done here that make it more interesting or more- So like, or more successful.

[00:13:25] Ben: Mm-hmm.

[00:13:26] Nathan: Right? So first you’re selling integrated ad packages- Exactly … instead of paying, like someone’s like, “Hey, I wanna pay just for a podcast slot.” And you’re like-

[00:13:32] Ben: Right … ”

[00:13:32] Nathan: We’re not doing that.”

[00:13:33] Ben: Right. You get basically like a rate sheet, and then you get a personal call with a sponsorship manager who’s going to typically have-

[00:13:40] Nathan: Mm-hmm

[00:13:41] Ben: often it’s a couple of calls or, or more to actually arrive on an ad package that works for your budget, but that- Yeah … rolls in as much as possible.

[00:13:48] Nathan: And that’s the, the partnerships, we’ll get into the team a little bit, but that’s two people on the partnerships team.

[00:13:52] Ben: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:13:53] Nathan: Okay. Two questions. When did you start doing the whitelist ads?

[00:13:56] And give an example of-

[00:13:58] Ben: Okay … how those work. And to contextualize this for you- Yeah … um, I didn’t know I was whitelisting until I saw it on our ad package, and I asked, “What is whitelisting?” Because I actually didn’t know myself. And your partner sales people said- And my partner sales people- “Let me tell you”

[00:14:10] well, okay, let us tell you what whitelisting is. So basically, people can take an ad, and it might be like an ad that they’ve already purchased, like a social reel or a social story or a social post, and then they can pay to like run that ad on their platform or as like a partner with you-

[00:14:27] Nathan: Right …

[00:14:27] Ben: on Meta, on wherever.

[00:14:30] They’re tr- usually it’s on Meta, like, like- Mm-hmm … Facebook. Um, and they’re paying a fee to have access to that for a certain period of time.

[00:14:38] Nathan: So like- Yeah … one that I saw recently was for the, is it Respire? The-

[00:14:42] Ben: Okay. So yeah, for, for like- The mouth tape … mouth tape. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:14:44] Nathan: Exactly. And so I’m-

[00:14:45] Ben: Yeah …

[00:14:45] Nathan: going through there, you pop up in my feed.

[00:14:47] Ben: Yeah.

[00:14:47] Nathan: It’s an ad run by them.

[00:14:49] Ben: Right.

[00:14:49] Nathan: But it’s-

[00:14:49] Ben: Exactly. Yeah … it’s your face talking about it They’re, they’re, they’re basically pumping money into that ad to run it- Yeah … but, and like they’re tracking whatever metrics that they’re getting on sales. ‘Cause you’re gonna

[00:14:57] Nathan: convert

[00:14:58] Ben: better

[00:14:58] Nathan: than- And- …

[00:14:59] Ben: some random Exactly.

[00:15:00] And I’m glad you brought them up, too, because- Um, we actually, and I left this out of the podcast revenue, ’cause I don’t know if it fits in a podcast or affiliate, but it’s interesting. We are doing more long form videos that a sponsor can… So for like 7.5K, I’ll shoot an educational video that is hopefully gonna bring value into people’s lives anyways.

[00:15:21] Right. Like we did one, uh, three days ago on sleep. I just had a video crew in my bedroom for a half hour in the evening, and that was sponsored by Respire. Right? So at the end of the video, you know, at the beginning there’s like the hook, “Oh, stick around for the end, I’m gonna give you-” Yeah … “you know, one final trick that, you know, you may not have heard of before.”

[00:15:39] And then at the very end I’m like, “Okay, and then the last thing,” and then you, you bring out the mouth tape and the nose tape. Right. And, um, so those are like long form videos, not like minute long social reels that- Mm-hmm … that sponsor can actually, like, sponsor.

[00:15:52] Nathan: I like that. And the other thing that I picked up on is, so, so someone would be paying upfront, a brand might be paying, in that case, $7,500.

[00:16:01] Ben: Yeah.

[00:16:02] Nathan: But then you’re also making money on the performance of it as well. Is that right? Where there’s some- Yeah … kind of affiliate revenue or what else for the sales you drive?

[00:16:09] Ben: Right. Because they’re running it with my link and/or my code, right? Mm-hmm. So there’s still some evergreen income that occurs.

[00:16:17] Yeah. There’s a few deals that we’ve done where the partners are just like, “Well, no, you know, if we’re paying X amount of dollars just based on our, our cogs or margins, whatever, we’re not gonna do the affiliate revenue also.” Most of the time we like to do the affiliate revenue just because- I mean, it keeps the

[00:16:31] Nathan: incentives along

[00:16:31] Ben: yeah, it keeps the incentives along and a lot of times, like, those affiliate cookies will be like lifetime affiliate cookies. So in many cases, if I’m signing a sponsor for 12 months, I’m really signing them for like 20 years as long as that code remains active.

[00:16:42] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:16:43] Ben: Uh, which is work for the partnerships team.

[00:16:45] I mean, it’s a pretty massive Airtable that’s like got all the codes and all the tracking and all the contacts and there’s like about 60 partners- Okay … that are really like the top 60 partners that we- Yeah … really focus on and we follow up on.

[00:16:59] Nathan: That’s awesome. Yeah. So in a moment I wanna get into- The two bigger businesses.

[00:17:04] This is actually the small business.

[00:17:06] Ben: Yes. Uh. Uh,

[00:17:08] Nathan: but before we do that-

[00:17:09] Ben: Doesn’t feel small, but

[00:17:10] Nathan: yeah.

[00:17:11] Ben: Yeah. It, it’s probably the one that I work the hardest in.

[00:17:13] Nathan: Okay.

[00:17:14] Ben: Yeah. And

[00:17:14] Nathan: I mean,

[00:17:14] Ben: it’s- ‘Cause, ‘

[00:17:15] Nathan: cause it’s me … a few roles and everything else.

[00:17:16] Ben: Yeah, it’s me and, and that’s also, like, you know, cautionary tale for any content creator.

[00:17:21] You know, if I get hit by a bus, most of that disappears.

[00:17:24] Nathan: Right. So what does the team look like? We, we have two partnerships people-

[00:17:27] Ben: Uh, so- As we focus on the

[00:17:29] Nathan: Ben G- Greenfield

[00:17:30] Ben: side … yeah, so CEO of Life Enterprises, um, who m- uh, basically oversees Life Market, Life Network, Triumph Coaching- Mm-hmm … uh, and the podcast, and the team basically ultimately answers to him.

[00:17:46] Although I’m the CEO of Ben Greenfield LLC, which is speaking- So the parent company … advising and books. That, that’s- Oh, got it … that’s my own deal. Yeah. That’s separate from Ben Greenfield Life. But any- And that’s pretty lean. I mean, speaking, advising, and books doesn’t take a lot of work. Yeah. And most of the people I work with are just, like, my EA team, essentially.

[00:18:04] I’ve got, like, three EAs, and- Okay … it’s me and those three EAs that are doing most of that stuff. As a matter of fact, if people from Ben Greenfield Life wind up working on Ben Greenfield LLC, they invoice Ben Greenfield LLC- Oh, okay … and I turn around and pay them. Yeah. So, like, if I’m speaking at an event, and there’s affiliate revenue tied to an event, and that requires work from the social team at Ben Greenfield Life to technically promote something, that’s a Ben Greenfield LLC source of revenue.

[00:18:27] Uh, Ben Greenfield LLC is just paying the Ben Greenfield Life social team. So then, uh, under the CEO is, uh, vice president. Um, CEO’s kinda archi- architecting, visionary, you know, new products, new businesses. VP is, uh, a little bit more in, like, the COO role. Um, of- Okay. So like a ops type? Yep Yep. And then, uh, there’s also a dedicated ops manager just for Ben Greenfield Life.

[00:18:53] So this ops manager is like Life Network, Life Market, everything Life Enterprises, and then there’s another COO who’s just operating or- I’m just gonna go- … managing …

[00:19:04] Nathan: ops times two.

[00:19:05] Ben: Yeah. So it’s kind of like two COOs- Yeah … essentially. And then social team is, uh, two people. Editorial team, like articles, captions, stuff like that, is two people.

[00:19:18] One tech person who is kind of like gradually becoming like almost like AI architect also, so that has been a role that is expanding in terms of, like, value and responsibility. And then technically there’s also one IT person. Okay. So there’s kind of like one tech person and one IT person. We’ll

[00:19:35] Nathan: just go times two.

[00:19:36] Yeah.

[00:19:36] Ben: Social, editorial- That’s a pretty good breakdown … tech, partnerships, COOs, VP ops. Yeah. That… Oh- You got 14, 15 people … sorry, one other thing. Uh, coaching, right? So there’s- Oh, yeah … uh, technically… I mean, if we’re not counting- Coaches … the coaches themselves, right? ‘Cause there’s six coaches right now. Mm-hmm.

[00:19:52] But they’re working as independent contractors. Yeah. But then the actual coa- like, the staff for coaching is three people.

[00:19:59] Nathan: Okay. Yeah. Three plus six. Yeah. Yeah. And anyone listening knows-

[00:20:04] Ben: Yeah …

[00:20:04] Nathan: yeah, the breakdown of those two.

[00:20:05] Ben: Yeah. Yep. Yeah,

[00:20:06] Nathan: so that’s a good sized team- Yeah … running this, ’cause it’s a complicated operation.

[00:20:10] Like, there’s a lot of things Uh, a lot of things going on there

[00:20:13] Ben: If you really truly wanna, like, bring in that type of revenue from, like, podcast sponsorships, you’re just, like, managing a lot of advertisers. Right. And they’re all in contact with you every single week. Yeah. And that adds up when there’s, like, hundreds of them.

[00:20:25] Nathan: How’s the performance of this going? How’s- Right.

[00:20:26] Ben: Exactly …

[00:20:26] Nathan: the timing of that? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that makes sense.

[00:20:28] Ben: Yeah. So that’s a big one.

[00:20:29] Nathan: If someone else was, like, on, on track

[00:20:31] Ben: to- Yeah …

[00:20:31] Nathan: build something like this, what are a couple things that you would say to them of, like, “Oh, make sure to do this part,” or-

[00:20:37] Ben: Oh

[00:20:37] Nathan: uh, you should know Yeah … you know, here’s maybe a mistake that I made that you shouldn’t repeat. Um- Let’s say I’m at a million in revenue, and I’m looking to scale to the six million.

[00:20:44] Ben: Well, one we already mentioned, like, I think ad packages tend to create- Yeah … a lot more revenue and value for the partner than just- Mm-hmm

[00:20:50] selling dedicated ads. Another one would be, a ton of this is probably related to some of the other stuff we’re gonna talk about in terms of, like, just don’t focus on this pure branding, personal brand play as your- Okay … primary source of revenue. Because based on other businesses that I’ve built, my goal is to have everything that we’ve just talked about right here be optional when I get out of bed in the morning, because there are other revenue streams that go beyond that.

[00:21:21] So a big part of it is just, like, think as you create the business about, um, you know, can I go to the beach for a week, or- Right. How dependent is it? … am I obligated to, like, get out of bed in the morning and shoot a video? ‘

[00:21:31] Nathan: Cause

[00:21:31] Ben: you’ve got- I would say- … Instagram reel

[00:21:32] Nathan: to make or-

[00:21:33] Ben: Yeah. But if we wanna talk brass tacks, another couple of things is, um, from a…

[00:21:38] Like, this piece requires content. Mm-hmm. And I went for a long time, like, in a very reactive, like, whiplash mode, where you’d get partners reaching out wanting a video or a podcast commercial or whatever, and you’re just like, “Okay, so when am I gonna shoot this today?” I have two videographers, and they live five minutes from my house.

[00:21:57] Mm-hmm. And they come to my house once, about once every week and a half or two weeks, and we spend, like, four to six hours, and we just get it-

[00:22:03] Nathan: Knock out a- …

[00:22:04] Ben: all done really well. None of me trying to figure out stuff with, like… Literally, like, up until, like, two years ago, it was like, “Hey, River, Tara,” my sons.

[00:22:12] Like, “Where are you? Grab the phone,” or, “I’m gonna set this up on a tripod,” or, “I’m gonna lean this against a fruit bowl in the kitchen.” And that was just… And it was super distracting.

[00:22:20] Nathan: Right.

[00:22:20] Ben: So batching content- Mm-hmm … that’s a big one. Um-

[00:22:23] Nathan: Now, are those… We didn’t list the… Are the videographers in the three? We,

[00:22:26] Ben: we re- You know what?

[00:22:27] We did leave a couple things out, and I was thinking about this. Um, not that we wanna look like total amateurs, but I’m gonna blame it on you- … ’cause you’re holding the marker. Yeah, so. We left out, um, podcast editor.

[00:22:37] Nathan: Okay.

[00:22:37] Ben: And we left out videographers. Okay. And that’s a total of three people. Those are really a lot of the big things as far as lessons go.

[00:22:45] I mean, we, you know, of course, from a lifestyle design standpoint- Um, I have so many boundaries, just like, yep. Yeah. Family devotions and family huddle at 7:00 AM, and I cannot be in my office then. And family dinner starts at 7:00, and, like, work is totally done by then. You know, typically it’s, like, family pickleball or ping pong or tennis or something that starts at, like, 6:00.

[00:23:06] So usually I’m out of the office even before then. Um, no calls or anything allowed on my schedule between 2:00 and 3:30 PM, so I can, like, siesta, nap- Yeah … test out biohacking toys, whatever. So all of that might make it look like I work pretty hard, but I actually, I am very, very much sold on the idea of having a lifestyle-based business, being with your family every day, having family dinner every night, like, getting your workout in every morning.

[00:23:32] So I’ve built a lot of this, obviously, very slowly, over a long period of time. Uh, and, um, and I’m super happy with, like, my day-to-day routine. Yeah. I, you know, I, I, I feel like with that team and having things spread out like that, like, it’s still, it’s still all pretty doable for me.

[00:23:49] Nathan: I love that. Okay. Well, let’s dive into the other businesses.

[00:23:52] Ben: Okay.

[00:23:53] Nathan: What’s the… Like, you have an e-commerce brand. What’s the name

[00:23:55] Ben: of it? Yeah. I’m doing that travel blogging, and I’m like a race car, right? Like, I- Yeah … in spandex, and I’m competing in all these triathlons all over the world, and then I raced for Reebok for four years in obstacle course racing, and I found that I could create a lot of value for sponsors by helping them sell their products while I was out racing.

[00:24:13] Mm. Um, some of those sponsors were supplement companies, and like, at one point during my racing career, uh, just like super nerded out type of thing that home schooler would do, I figured out how to, like, basically write out a PHP script that would allow people to submit their credit card information and payment processing on my end, and then get that drop shipped by the affiliates.

[00:24:38] Like, I had like 10 different companies just, like, in the supplements industry alone, just drop shipping stuff-

[00:24:43] Nathan: Okay …

[00:24:44] Ben: um, just based on a personal relationship I had with them, ’cause they were, like, getting me up to Thailand to do a triathlon or whatever. And I was kind of, like, looking at the numbers and realizing, oh, gosh, like I am selling a lot of supplements for a lot of people at like, you know, 10 to 15%, you know, affiliate revenue.

[00:25:01] And, um, and they’re all drop shipping it for me, and like, they own a lot of the customer data and the follow-up, and I think I could probably use my own knowledge of biochemistry and love for the supplements industry to just, like, start to do a lot of this on my own. So I took what was at the time called Greenfield Fitness Systems, which was kinda like the branch that I had devoted to a lot of this, this, like, sponsor stuff, and I started a company called Kion, a supplements company.

[00:25:28] Ki meaning like life force, energy, named after the Japanese kanji symbol tattooed on my right shoulder for Ki. A mistake made in college that wound up being a business. Um, so, so Kion… Actually, what happened was I flew a branding agency up to my house that one of my friends had recommended to me, and I’m not gonna call them out, but I didn’t like them very much, and I thought they super sucked.

[00:25:52] But one guy was really cool, and his name is Angelo, and I basically didn’t wind up doing much work at all with the branding team, but I offered Angelo a job as the operations manager- Mm … for Kion to help me build it and scale it. And he’s awesome. Uh, still is awesome. He’s the CEO of the company now. So, uh, he vested over, like, four years into about 46% ownership- Yeah

[00:26:15] in the company, which is a good way to scale if you, if you, you know, want a good operations manager or CEO, but maybe you’re bootstrapping and, you know, can’t afford to, to pay him a full salary right off the bat. So Kion is, uh, it’s super simple stuff. Okay. It’s like creatine and whey protein, and, like, amino acids are our top-selling product, and fish oil, and an immune product.

[00:26:38] But the, the idea is super high quality, very simple. We don’t want a whole bunch of crazy, like, whatever. They’re great products, like Athletic Greens or IMA or whatever. We don’t want, like, 90 different ingredients that we gotta go out and source newer ingredients for when something goes out of stock. Uh, we don’t do Whole Foods or, uh, like GNC or super stores- You’re all direct-to-consumer

[00:26:59] or anything. We’re all D2C, Shopify, Amazon, um, for two reasons. A, we don’t have to worry about shelf life and stocking and shipping, and then B, it becomes kind of a math game when you’re D2C. We know, we, we know exactly the cost of every new customer that we’re bringing in. Um, you know, we’ve got our own internal last click acquisition software that we built, and it’s essentially just, like- Yeah

[00:27:28] it’s, it’s math. Um- So on this- On, on very simple but effective products, so doesn’t get misuse. Yeah, like how

[00:27:33] Nathan: many SKUs do you have? Is it-

[00:27:34] Ben: Well, uh, fewer and fewer every year. Okay. You keep simplifying. Uh, that’s what I love about… So, so I’m, like, an idea man. I’m a visionary, and I’ll come up with these ideas for, like…

[00:27:42] or used to come up with these ideas for, like, multi complex, like 20-ingredient formulas. Yeah. We’re gonna go, like, the longevity formula to rule them all. And Angelo, you know, our CEO, he’s just like, “No, that’s a stupid idea.” Like- … he realizes, like, how expensive that’s gonna be- We’re Angelo now … and you’re gonna have like 1,000 people who wanna buy it and that’s it.

[00:27:58] And so we have I think nine SKUs-

[00:28:01] Nathan: Oh,

[00:28:01] Ben: wow … right now.

[00:28:02] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:28:02] Ben: Um, and- It’s a very lean business … we have literally considered going down as low as one SKU.

[00:28:07] Nathan: Mm.

[00:28:07] Ben: Like aminos outsells everything 10X, just essential amino acids. It’s kinda like our wedge for the other products- Yeah … in terms of, like, people find us through essential amino acids, and they like them for, like, muscle gain and fat loss and satiety, and they, they do a lot.

[00:28:20] They’re like a Swiss Army knife. So yeah, that’s Kion. And Kion, again, same thing with SKUs, like pretty lean mean team. I think we have Nine people right now Okay.

[00:28:28] Nathan: Well, we’re not gonna share the revenue numbers for Kion, but it’s many multiples of what we have going on over, over here in the Ben Greenfield Life world.

[00:28:35] Yeah. Ki-

[00:28:35] Ben: Kion does very well. Yeah.

[00:28:36] Nathan: Yeah. Just so people know what we, we have this other, the circle that is so big.

[00:28:41] Ben: The moon. The planet. There’s

[00:28:44] Nathan: no moon.

[00:28:45] Ben: And you know, you know what we should mention though is like Kion, um, started off like with me as, as kind of like the l- like the rocket booster, right? Like I was, I was the content machine, I was the face, I was the name of the brand, and I think that can be useful for launching a brand.

[00:29:01] But back to the lifestyle-based business thing, um, and also kind of like the acquisition piece, if you’re building a company to sell, which is what we’re doing with Kion, and you have a key person issue, meaning like let’s say I was still the name, the face, doing all the content, all the videos, and they were heavily- Right

[00:29:17] reliant upon me as a main influencer, that’s, uh, that, that’s a, a key person problem that makes it difficult for whatever, you know, PE or whoever’s gonna, gonna buy your company to actually swallow when they realize, oh, if this person gets, gets hit by a bus, like that’s gonna drastically affect revenue. I advise a energy drink company that recently brought in Kim Kardashian.

[00:29:37] I’m like, “That’s, like, not the greatest idea” because, you know, not that she’s like a bad person, I don’t know much about her. I would much rather do like what we did at Kion where we’ve got like 100 plus micro influencers- Mm … you know, the mommy blogger and the rock climber and the triathlete and, uh, the dancer.

[00:29:53] And so we’re, we’re spreading out our influence across a lot of different personalities, but none of them are clutch.

[00:30:01] Nathan: Mm.

[00:30:02] Ben: Um, I’ve seen companies in the supplements industry actually get a pretty low valuation because they didn’t disentangle some, like, controversial or lightning rod-esque type of former CEO or founder from the company.

[00:30:16] And so that person’s out whatever doing blogs and podcasts and content that might be considered to be controversial, and that can affect acquisition or valuation later on. And then the other issue that you run into is that if I were to take all the Ben Greenfield Life content, like I originally did when I launched Kion, and use that as SEO to drive traffic to purchase supplements, uh, and that company gets acquired, then whoever acquires Kion acquires all my IP that I’ve been working on for 20 years and can do whatever the heck they want with it, in many cases, depending on how the contract is written.

[00:30:52] And I’m not just making this up. Like I’ve seen, uh, you know, one very popular supplements company get a low valuation because their founder is a controversial person. Um, you could find articles on my website about like LSD and plant medicine and sex, just like stuff- Right … that people would consider… Not, not bad.

[00:31:10] Like I don’t write this stuff to be offensive, but there’s just like- J- it’s just stuff. It’s not private equity friendly. It’s just real stuff. Yeah. It’s not, it’s not, it’s not PE friendly. Yeah. And then the other issue is I’ve also seen people who have had, like, really, really great content websites sell to big companies, and the companies just nuke the content ’cause they don’t wanna go through 20 years of content and scrape stuff to make sure it’s safe.

[00:31:29] So they just, like- They delete it all … get rid of it. And you lose it all.

[00:31:32] Nathan: So, uh, with Kion, you used your brand to launch it initially.

[00:31:37] Ben: Right.

[00:31:38] Nathan: And to-

[00:31:38] Ben: Almost like a rocket booster, yeah.

[00:31:39] Nathan: And then you’ve been very deliberate about how reliant Kion is on you for your time, but especially-

[00:31:46] Ben: Oh, yeah …

[00:31:46] Nathan: for your brand, for marketing, for customer acquisition, and all of that.

[00:31:49] Ben: You cannot find… You would be hard-pressed to find my name, my face, my involvement anywhere on the actual Kion website. You could find it- Yeah … on the internet that I’m, like, whatever, co-founder- Mm-hmm … or whatever. But, um, I’ve extracted myself quite a bit from the company. Even Angelo, like, he’s doing fewer and fewer podcast appearances.

[00:32:06] Nathan: Mm.

[00:32:06] Ben: Uh, just because, like, we want the company to really, like, be reliant upon, like, our product and how good our product is- It stands on its own … and no key person, and it stands on its own. Uh, and it’s- ‘Cause

[00:32:17] Nathan: then if you have a situation like, you know, think about acquisitions in our space, um, whether it’s Primal Kitchen or tons of these other ones- Any of these acquisitions that, you know, you want them to buy it for the product- Yeah

[00:32:29] the, the power of the engine behind it and all that, and not the fact that, oh, now you- Right … as the founder- Right … you’ve gotta come with it.

[00:32:37] Ben: Yeah.

[00:32:37] Nathan: You now are on

[00:32:39] Ben: a five-year deal. And there, there’s a certain, there’s a certain aspect of, like, cool kids marketing. Like, like, another, like, yesterday, the this big circle, like, uh, I just brought on Tom Brady, right?

[00:32:48] And so, like, he will bring in traffic as, as a big face, big name. Um, and for the initial phases of a launch, I think sometimes that can be useful to- Right … get momentum. Um, you know, I’m launching a documentary right now, and Zac Efron is the executive producer. And, like, that kind of big name is good, but I, I wouldn’t want people to view the documentary ’cause they know who the executive producer is.

[00:33:13] It’s like- Mm … that’s a little bonus that might get more people in the front door, but then I want that documentary to be popular because of word of mouth and its value to people. But you don’t wanna completely ignore, like, star power that you might- Mm-hmm … have on your team or have access to, but you don’t wanna make a company that’s relying on that.

[00:33:29] That’s dependent on it. Even if it sounds cool. Yeah,

[00:33:31] Nathan: or dependent on it. What are some other lessons learned as you’re launching Keyon and really, you know, taking the attention- Yeah … that you have and saying, “Okay, I wanna build a sellable asset- Yeah … on another scale within this business”?

[00:33:41] Ben: One thing would be, I kind of already alluded to this, but just, like, simplicity.

[00:33:47] Like, understand that you, if you’re watching this or listening to this, are probably just by the nature of you being a creator, like, a real visionary. If you’re going to build a company that’s gonna generate revenue outside of yourself as a creator, but you’re gonna use yourself as a creator to give the initial, like, rocket booster lift to that company, then try to have somebody at the helm who’s, like, holding the reins.

[00:34:10] Mm-hmm. Who’s almost, like, frustrating you when you get on the phone and you’ve got 10 new ideas, and, like, they’re really the type of person who’s gonna say, “No, diluted focus equals diluted results. You know, these are all, like, dumb ideas,” or, “We don’t wanna waste our time- Right … on these.” And you need to trust that person and let them just focus on- Uh, really the numbers, what’s working, and keep things simple

[00:34:32] Nathan: I’ve seen that a lot where exactly what you’re saying, where the founder and I do this, you know, more and more and more, and so you end up with all of the surface area of all- Yeah

[00:34:41] of these things that you’re doing, and they’re all moderately successful.

[00:34:43] Ben: Yeah.

[00:34:44] Nathan: And then really when you find, okay, this is what really works, let’s cut off these other things- Yeah … and let’s dump it in and, and-

[00:34:49] Ben: Right …

[00:34:50] Nathan: scale it up. You

[00:34:50] Ben: need someone who’s just gonna, who’s just gonna, like, destroy your dreams.

[00:34:53] Like- Yeah …

[00:34:53] Nathan: for the most part. Yeah It’s this one thing is actually

[00:34:55] Ben: working. Yeah, yeah. ‘

[00:34:55] Nathan: Cause you had… If I remember correctly, you had, like, 18 to

[00:34:59] Ben: 20 SKUs before, and you gradually- Um, we had more. I don’t remember exactly how many, but we had more.

[00:35:04] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:35:05] Ben: Um- And then you gradually narrowed it … or we had SKUs with lots of ingre- I don’t, I don’t think we have a single SKU with more than four ingredients-

[00:35:12] Nathan: Mm

[00:35:12] Ben: which is actually not that common in the supplements industry.

[00:35:15] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:35:15] Ben: And so when you see a product launch, uh, and they’ve got, like, a dozen plus different ingredients, and they’re on every podcast advertising, and who knows how much equity they’ve given away in the company to get the dollars for that marketing- Mm

[00:35:31] and for those products, um- You don’t see those companies lasting that long- Mm … in many cases in the supplements industry. So yeah, simplicity, concentration, focus, um, I think it’s, it’s a pretty good equation.

[00:35:44] Nathan: Okay. So now le- let’s go to this, this giant circle, um, which is- Yeah … a company that you’ve just launched.

[00:35:50] Ben: Uh, yesterday. Yeah. Yesterday.

[00:35:54] Nathan: Yes. Coming to

[00:35:55] Ben: you live. Yeah, yeah,

[00:35:56] Nathan: yeah. What’s the, what’s the name

[00:35:58] Ben: of this company? Make this company go. Life Enterprises- Okay … is the holding company for- What’s the name of the

[00:36:02] Nathan: product?

[00:36:03] Ben: Triumph Coaching, Life Network, and, uh, Life Markets. Um, and then we have Ben Greenfield Life and Ben Greenfield LLC, and this new company is called Life OS.

[00:36:17] Nathan: Okay.

[00:36:17] Ben: And Life OS is, as the name implies, kind of like an operating system, but it’s a clinical play. Um, this is gonna be super fun because this is the first podcast I’ve ever done where I can- Yeah … talk about this. We recognize a need, and by we, I mean me and, uh, some friends who are in the functional medicine and physician space, um, and a pharmacy company and, uh, our CEO of Life Enterprises, Caleb Applegate, also happens to be my b- my best friend and live like 20 minutes from me up in Idaho.

[00:36:51] That’s awesome. So it’s super fun. We, um, recognize that, um, people are really wanting things like peptides, bioidentical hormones, I mean, all the way down to just, like, you know, medical cannabis, like, all these things that, um, that can technically be fulfilled online direct to consumer, uh, but that are kind of dangerous, like sold for, you know, human research only, nudge, nudge, wink, wink.

[00:37:20] Yeah. Uh, or, um, are just, like, cheap imports from, you know, China, uh, you know, synthetic ingredients. Um, you can’t even make dosing recommendations ’cause that’s illegal, uh, if you’re selling stuff for human research. Um, and so that’s problem number one. Problem number two is that, uh, physicians, a lot of times, uh, have patients who have, like, wearables, labs, blood biomarkers, previous prescriptions from other doctors, peptides they wanna try, a fitness plan, a certain nutrition or dietary plan they’re supposed to be following, and this is all just, like, not concentrated in any way for a doctor.

[00:37:56] It’s all over the map, and a lot of it isn’t even HIPAA compliant, meaning it’s not secure. And- Mm … and a doctor technically is not supposed to be using, like, Claude, and GPT, and Gemini and- Right … feeding labs through that and using all these different APIs. Uh, that’s not even legal. Um, and then finally, there, um, there, there’s no way for a doctor to actually take all of that data- Be able to feed it through AI to get personalized recommendations for each patient, and simultaneously, in a secure manner, get that patient the pharmaceuticals that they need, the peptides that they need, that are actually, like, above board, sold not for human research, but for medical use.

[00:38:36] Yeah. So I realize that’s a lot, but long story short is we really busted butt for the past 12 weeks and solved all those problems. So basically, we’ve developed a, kind of like a B to B to C play- Mm-hmm … where we are handing a clinic, uh, essentially a tool, um, in the form of a website and an app that allows them to, in a completely secure format, keep track of all their patients’ blood biomarkers, labs, data, run new labs whenever they need to, get peptides, get hormones, get anything else that they need for the client whenever they need to, um, and be able to use AI if a physician is, you know, just needs help, you know, managing all of this.

[00:39:21] Custom-built AI based on 20 years of clinical data, and then we’ve also fed in your fitness, your nutrition, your wearables. It’s just, like, one platform that’s a single source of truth for a clinic or a physician. So we have been just, like, onboarding clinics right and left, uh, like, for the past four weeks at least, because shockingly, this doesn’t exist.

[00:39:45] It doesn’t sound super complicated. Um, it’s a little complicated, but it’s not super comp- Yeah … it’s not a super complicated tech play. The issue is that nobody’s kind of put all the pieces together.

[00:39:55] Nathan: In one

[00:39:55] Ben: place. Um, and/or had access to big enough pharmacies and big enough clinics and physician networks to be able to roll it out successfully.

[00:40:03] We launched yesterday with around 100,000 patients, uh- … and-

[00:40:10] Nathan: Just did …

[00:40:11] Ben: uh, a lot of- Significant scale … signing, signing up. We, we did a very small We raised about 500K, just friends, family, uh, and a few key influencers, like I mentioned, and that’s just for… Basically, all we need money for is initial marketing, and we had to kinda like scale the engineering team a little bit just to roll this out, uh, in a timely manner.

[00:40:32] And then, yeah, we’re- and we’re able to do what’s called IRB studies through our platform, meaning that- Can you explain what an IRB study is? Even if somebody is not able to just, like, go online or get a prescription from their doctor for a certain pharmaceutical or compound, they could enroll in an IRB study, uh, which is basically like a research study that allows them to try or use the compound because it’s being researched, and they’re just basically, you know…

[00:40:59] They’re, they’re a research subject, and that’s how they’re getting access to the compound that they need. So our first major IRB… I don’t even know if I’m supposed to say this on the podcast, but I’ll say it, and then I’ll get in trouble, and we can remove it later on. But our first major, uh, IRB, uh, rollout that we’ll be doing is for Ibogaine, right?

[00:41:17] Okay, yeah. Which is, which is for, like, opioid addiction and alcohol. Like, people will be able to, through our platform, get access to that, you know, through a doctor as a part of a, as a part of a research study. Yeah.

[00:41:26] Nathan: And then the business model on this is that you’re able to make money on providing the-

[00:41:33] Ben: Yeah, we can negotiate- All of the products

[00:41:35] really good prices because they’re at scale from the pharmacies, and then the… It’s free for a clinic. Unless they wanna totally skin and white label this-

[00:41:46] Nathan: Right …

[00:41:46] Ben: uh, which is a little bit of an extra cost. It’s free for the clinic to use it to operate their clinic or their clinics, uh, but then it’s a rev split when they get any peptide or anything else from the pharmacy.

[00:42:01] The physician shares some of the revenue from that, uh, we get some of the revenue from that- Mm-hmm … and then the patient gets what they need-

[00:42:08] Nathan: Yeah …

[00:42:08] Ben: in a safe way- Right … through a doctor.

[00:42:10] Nathan: Yep. That’s very important. Okay, so I wanna address, like, why, you know, why we drew such a giant circle here. What I notice about all of this is you have the first business, which is in the single-digit millions, you know- Yeah

[00:42:23] at a, at a very meaningful scale.

[00:42:25] Ben: Yeah.

[00:42:25] Nathan: This one is, like, well into the double-digit millions, right? And then… Or, so, so we’re a seven-figure business, an eight-figure business, and then when you… I think about the potential of Life OS- Yeah … like, that’s a nine figures in revenue, um-

[00:42:41] Ben: Yeah …

[00:42:42] Nathan: obviously you launched yesterday- Yeah

[00:42:43] so we’ll give you a little time to get there, but, um –

[00:42:45] Ben: Yeah, so if you look at, like- It’s an, it’s

[00:42:46] Nathan: an order-

[00:42:47] Ben: Yeah, if you look at, like, 100,000 patients, and let’s say average order volume is around 150 to $200, uh, per patient per month, um, and that’s- That per month part is very important. Yeah, that will scale pretty quick, yeah.

[00:43:02] Nathan: So seeing the scale that that can get to is really impressive. Yeah. Another thing that I’m noticing, particularly about both of these businesses with Kion and Life OS, is they have recurring revenue. Right? Where-

[00:43:12] Ben: Yeah …

[00:43:13] Nathan: you know, you ha- a lot of products people are buying from Kion are either a one-time purchase that’s a consumable, and so, like, this is great- Yeah

[00:43:20] I’m buying it again, or it’s true recurring, where they’re like, “Great, get me on a monthly or a quarterly-” Yeah … subscription.

[00:43:24] Ben: Supplements company, uh, yeah, y- you, you want subscription. Yeah. Like, that’s the direction you need to be going.

[00:43:30] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:43:30] Ben: Absolutely.

[00:43:30] Nathan: And then Life OS is the same thing where, you know, they’re…

[00:43:34] If the… Someone’s buying a product that’s working for them, they’re going to- Right … keep buying it over

[00:43:38] Ben: and over

[00:43:38] Nathan: again.

[00:43:38] Ben: Right. Exactly. And then the, like… Not that we wanna get too into the weeds, but, like, the beauty of that is that AI is constantly adjusting that, right? Mm-hmm. Because let’s say you’re on a prescription medication, I don’t know, for thyroid, right?

[00:43:51] Yeah. But then your doctor’s also running quarterly thyroid panels. Well, there will be a point where our AI, uh, which is named Ellen, might pipe in and say, “Hey, like, Nate actually does not need to be on this thyroid medication anymore. Uh, but his, uh, you know, his vitamin D and his cortisol are a little off this month, so make sure you address those, but we can actually stop this particular prescription.”

[00:44:14] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:44:14] Ben: So yeah, so the SaaS model in medicine is, like, different. Again, I’m not a doctor. Please don’t- Yeah … take this as medical advice, anybody. Um, but yeah, it’s, it’s, it’s a similar idea. It’s still, like, a SaaS-based model in that, you know, you have X number of clinics and doctors who are generating X amount of revenue per month.

[00:44:31] Nathan: And then in all of these cases, right, so launching Kion, it very much launched from your personal brand-

[00:44:37] Ben: Mm-hmm …

[00:44:37] Nathan: but then- Yeah … scaled well beyond that very deliberately.

[00:44:40] Ben: Right.

[00:44:40] Nathan: Life OS- Your personal brand, it’s really your relationships- That’s- … that got you into this,

[00:44:45] Ben: right? Yeah, that’s relationships. That’s either me speaking on stage like I did yesterday- Mm-hmm

[00:44:49] to a bunch of doctors.

[00:44:51] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:44:51] Ben: Or it’s me literally, like, picking up the phone and calling a clinic. Or it’s me just having, um, you know, a specific conversation where, you know, just where, like, I’m, I’m going to be, you know, spending the morning with RFK on Tuesday.

[00:45:06] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:45:06] Ben: And I’ll probably mention it to him and, um, and then he might mention it to somebody, and it might wind up being a really good solution that, uh, that the U.S.

[00:45:16] government likes, right? Right. Um, one of the guys who’s running our company right now is in, uh, Qatar, and it appears that their medical board, like, wants to use this to run the medical system in Qatar. So, so yeah, there’s a lot of opportunities as far as, like, where this could be plugged into. Yeah,

[00:45:32] Nathan: I think what I wanna point out for, for creators is…

[00:45:35] Because I think a lot of them might be at 500,000 a month in revenue and, and they can see, “Ooh, I, I see a path to a million.”

[00:45:42] Ben: Yeah.

[00:45:42] Nathan: And here we mapped out, actually, that million could be six million.

[00:45:46] Ben: Yeah.

[00:45:46] Nathan: But then as you say, like, and that, that’s an incredible business, especially the way that you’ve designed your life around it and all that.

[00:45:53] But then showing like… And hey, this can be substantially bigger, and the relationships and the reputation that you’ve built can get you into-

[00:46:01] Ben: Yeah …

[00:46:01] Nathan: these opportunities on an entirely different- Yeah … scale. That’s something that I, I think a lot of creators should do, is to think bigger and realize the scale of opportunity that they have.

[00:46:08] I have an essay- Yeah … that I, that I wrote called Billion Dollar Creator, which gets into this of, like, how to take the attention and the influence that you have and turn it into these massive businesses.

[00:46:16] Ben: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:46:16] Nathan: But how do you think

[00:46:17] Ben: about it? If, if you want to. Um, you know what I mean, like, you and I both live in Idaho.

[00:46:21] You know, it’s dirt cheap to live here. Like, like, we don’t need this amount of revenue. I think some of it comes down to impact. Mm-hmm. Some of it comes down to, you know, especially for this piece of thing or, or this piece of the pie. Like, when I’m… I have, like, two and a half hours per day now of just consumptive activity, and by that, I mean reading research articles, reading books, preparing for a podcast, listening to a podcast, listening to an audiobook, to turn around and package that information somehow to make people’s lives better.

[00:46:49] Nathan: Yep.

[00:46:50] Ben: Um, which is just… Like, that’s what gets me out of bed ultimately, not to get super esoteric. At the end of the day, um, is, like, how many people can I tell, like, cool stuff to that makes- Mm-hmm … their lives better? Um, and so when it comes to businesses like this, I mean, even, like, Keon, it was like, I like supplements.

[00:47:09] I take supplements. Like, couldn’t I find better versions of these and take the stuff that- Mm-hmm … I consume myself every morning and make this available for people? Life what? Like, I like peptides. I don’t like it when my doctor is confused about what I’m on, or I’ve got, like- Right … four different doctors who have no clue, and none of them are talking to each other, and- And

[00:47:27] Nathan: none of them

[00:47:27] Ben: have access to- None of them are using-

[00:47:28] your miracles … AI intelligently- Yeah … or less than they could. So for me, a lot of it is just like, this is the stuff I’m passionate about anyways. Mm-hmm. And yeah, it does kick off revenue. But I don’t, I don’t think you necessarily, like- have to form, you know, other big companies like this that exist outside of you.

[00:47:47] I think the bigger message for me is like, if you do, figure out a way to do it, um In such a way that you as a creator who has been trained for everything to be about you and your face and your profile and your video and your audio could create something that exists outside of you long after you’re gone, that, like, the goal should be, okay, so how, how could I keep doing what I’m doing because I want to, not because I have to, when it comes to the personal brand of the creator standpoint?

[00:48:14] Nathan: Ben, you’ve built this massive business as a creator. I think there’s a lot of creators watching who are trying to decide, do I build an empire or do I build a lifestyle business?

[00:48:21] Ben: Yeah.

[00:48:22] Nathan: What would, what would you say to them?

[00:48:23] Ben: You could technically do both. So, so the empire piece, we wanna call the empire piece, like, all the stuff that’s making money while you’re asleep that you don’t necessarily have to wake up in the morning and pay attention to because you’ve, you’ve set up systems and delegated and created a team to run a lot of this for you.

[00:48:38] If we’re talking about the empire in those terms, I think the, the biggest key is when you’re thinking about creating something like that, that you make it, as we’ve talked a little bit about before already, not dependent on you. Like, set the ego aside. Doesn’t have to have, like, your face, your name, your brand.

[00:48:58] You don’t even have to, like, create, uh, a workflow such that you… Like, you’re expected to be on, like, the weekly meetings and a part of all the Zoom calls. Like, try to, from the get-go, create a business that, besides maybe a little bit of initial marketing from you, is not dependent on your name, your face, your brand, et cetera, that would allow you to, based on the revenue that it kicks off, make getting up out of bed in the morning to do your own personal videos and podcasts and everything either optional or not, like, a huge rush necessity.

[00:49:30] So my… I, I love my life. Like, I typically do not, besides just, like, checking in to make sure there’s no fires to put out on, like, Asana or Slack or whatever, like, I don’t really do much until about 10:00 or 10:30 AM, and up until that point, I’m with my family, I’m outside, I’m working out, I’m hanging out with my wife, I’m making a really complex, super tasty smoothie.

[00:49:57] Like, I have… I, you know, I ease myself in in the morning. I work like a horse with blinders, like, deep work from, like, 10:30 until 2:00 PM. Take an awesome nap every day, uh, every afternoon, ’cause nobody’s allowed to touch my schedule in the afternoons. Right. Uh, I catch up on phone calls and stuff between, like, 4:30 and 6:00.

[00:50:16] If it’s a busy day, I work till, like, 6:45. If it’s not a busy day, like, pickleball, ping pong- Mm-hmm … bocce ball, cornhole, like, all the yard games, come out with the kids. Around then, uh, 7:00 PM, it’s, like, father-son book club and, uh, family music and family games. And at, like, from, like, 8:45 to 9:00, well, I eat dessert every night, which is usually yogurt and dark chocolate and berries.

[00:50:42] I eat dessert while I look at my email inbox just to make sure there’s, like, nothing crazy coming up the next morning, and then by, like- 9:10, 9:15, we’re, like, gathering in mom and dad’s bedroom for our evening routine, where we’re all just, like, hanging out and talking about the next day, and praying together, and being a family.

[00:51:00] So I’m consistent. Like, that’s like-

[00:51:02] Nathan: Yeah …

[00:51:02] Ben: six days a week, and then I take a Sabbath day Sunday, um, which is pretty much off, uh, besides just, like, calling friends or whatever. But, um, but yeah, I feel like, like you, you could be a creator, and as long as you’re consistent and in it for the long haul, and not looking to, like, you know, become famous overnight, you know, ’cause I’ve been doing this for, like, 18 years- Yeah

[00:51:22] um, even before that, then yeah, it’s totally doable.

[00:51:25] Nathan: So what you’re saying is, if you’re trying to decide between a lifestyle business and an empire, it’s a false dichotomy. You don’t actually have to choose. Yeah. But you do have to be very intentional.

[00:51:34] Ben: You do gotta be intentional, yeah, and, like, you still have to work hard.

[00:51:38] And, you know, I, I say all that, but, like, if I’m writing a book, I won’t lie, there’s usually… Like, Boundless, right? It’s like 700 pages. It’s like the bible of biohacking. There’s typically, like, six months going into finishing a book, where I’m setting my alarm, like, an hour and a half earlier.

[00:51:52] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:51:52] Ben: Like, book launch phase, I’m up at like 4:00 to 5:30 AM.

[00:51:56] It’s just cleared for the book, and I’m an hour and a half less on sleep for those six months. Like, there’s, there’s sprints. Like- Yeah … there’s sprint phases, for sure. Um-

[00:52:02] Nathan: I’m in

[00:52:03] Ben: one of those right

[00:52:03] Nathan: now.

[00:52:03] Ben: But yeah, as a rule- … like, every day shouldn’t be like that, and I think too many entrepreneurs are just like, “Hey, I’m like, whatever.

[00:52:09] Yeah, Modafinil during the day, Valium at night, let’s go. Let’s push.” Um, and yeah, you just, you burn out.

[00:52:16] Nathan: Ben, this has been fantastic to see. One, it’s a huge gift, for the breakdown of how the business works, all of that. Like- Cool … thank you for shari- sharing all the numbers.

[00:52:25] Ben: Yeah, yeah.

[00:52:26] Nathan: Um-

[00:52:26] Ben: This is super… And by the way, I don’t get to talk about this stuff very much at all-

[00:52:28] so this is super fun. Usually people ask me, like, how to do- Wh- which peptide- … how to do a coffee enema. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, or whatever.

[00:52:35] Nathan: Um, where should people go if they want to follow the rest of your content and, you know, listen to the podcast, dive into your whole world?

[00:52:42] Ben: Probably bengreenfieldlife.com.

[00:52:44] That’s kinda like the central hub. Uh, yeah, you can pretty much find anything from there. Yeah. That

[00:52:50] Nathan: sounds good.

[00:52:50] Ben: Yeah.

[00:52:50] Nathan: Well, thanks for coming

[00:52:51] Ben: on. Sign up for my newsletter, which is not on the kit. Yeah.

[00:52:55] Nathan: We can fix that. We can fix that. Well, we gotta sign off now, because I promised you that we would play pickleball- Let’s go

[00:52:59] Ben: and

[00:52:59] Nathan: have a- Yeah … backyard barbecue.

[00:53:01] Ben: Yeah. And we’re doing that. Talk about lifestyle. Yeah. Let’s do it. Sounds good. Cool. All right, thanks for coming on. All

[00:53:05] Nathan: right, thanks, man. If you enjoyed this episode, go to YouTube and search The Nathan Barry Show, then hit subscribe and make sure to like the video and drop a comment.

[00:53:14] I’d love to hear what some of your favorite parts of the video were, and also just who else you think we should have on the show. Thank you so much for listening.

[00:00:00] Shawn: This is what product market fit feels like. We couldn’t sell it fast enough.

[00:00:03] Nathan: Shawn Blanc has run every business model there is: affiliate income, sponsorships, an e-book, a flagship course, memberships, and even in-person retreats.

[00:00:10] Shawn: What if we just do it as one day? The whole focus course in one day. We did it for, like, 10 bucks.

[00:00:14] We made an insane amount of money.

[00:00:15] Nathan: How much money did it make?

[00:00:16] Shawn: $750,000.

[00:00:19] Nathan: What are the other lessons that you take away from

[00:00:21] Shawn: that? Don’t be romantic about how you make your money.

[00:00:23] Nathan: Over the past 15 years, he’s reinvented himself in so many ways. He’s actually pivoted from the course that built his business to a new venture that he talks about in this episode.

[00:00:32] Shawn: This actually ends up leading to the biggest breakthrough for the business that I’ve had in 15 years. So it’s doing, like, about 100 grand for the year, and then I just hit 100 grand in a week. All of that came from the email list. It’s a crazy transformation.

[00:00:42] Nathan: When he examined the business to find what was broken, he came back to a much more difficult question: What if the thing limiting his business was actually him?

[00:00:49] Shawn: I call it the burden of opportunity, where these are a lot of opportunities, but if you say yes to all of them, none of them will reach their potential.

[00:00:55] Nathan: What would you say to an entrepreneur who has a lot of good things going on but can’t

[00:00:59] Shawn: seem to focus? When you have all those opportunities, you have to-

[00:01:02] Nathan: I like that.

[00:01:02] You’ll definitely wanna stick around for

[00:01:04] Shawn: this episode. You can get the same amount of work done in less time just by

[00:01:13] Nathan: Sean, welcome to the show.

[00:01:14] Shawn: Thank you. I’m so happy to be here.

[00:01:16] Nathan: So we’ve known each other for a long time.

[00:01:17] Shawn: Yes.

[00:01:17] Nathan: You’ve been creating content on the internet for a long time- Yes … just like I have. I feel like we’ve kind of grown up together as our businesses and, like, learned from each other and all of that.

[00:01:25] The thing that I wanna talk about most today is reinvention.

[00:01:28] Shawn: Mm-hmm. ‘

[00:01:28] Nathan: Cause to stay relevant as a creator- Yeah … for a long time, you have to reinvent yourself. What’s your approach been to reinventing yourself? Oh, my. And, and are you intentional about it, or is it, has it all been accidental?

[00:01:38] Shawn: I think on the business side, what I have found after 15 years, which I think you know about this as well, is there is…

[00:01:46] for one, there’s never a silver bullet. Mm-hmm. I’m always like, “Oh, this will be the launch,” or, “This will be the product,” or, “This will be the offer,” or, “This will be the new channel that will finally, like, unlock my business.”

[00:01:56] Nathan: Right.

[00:01:57] Shawn: And it never exists. Like, it’s never there.

[00:02:00] Nathan: I have never found it.

[00:02:01] Shawn: Right.

[00:02:02] Nathan: I have looked for a very long time, and I, and I keep thinking, “Oh, this is the thing.”

[00:02:07] Shawn: Mm-hmm.

[00:02:07] Nathan: For us, it would be our, like, a recent one would be our Creator Network feature-

[00:02:11] Shawn: Yeah …

[00:02:12] Nathan: which has made a big impact, and people rave about it. But, like, it’s been a marginal improvement on the success of the business- Yeah … even though it, you know, it’ll drive, like, 30 or 40% growth for individual creators, and like, this is the best thing ever.

[00:02:24] And it’s like, okay. But it hasn’t, you know- Mm-hmm … it was the, the breakthrough that I was expecting.

[00:02:29] Shawn: Right.

[00:02:29] Nathan: Uh, and it didn’t fully come. Um, and I,

[00:02:32] Shawn: I- And it’s like these, these incremental things.

[00:02:34] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:02:34] Shawn: Right? So every time I think this is gonna be the big thing, it turns out to be, well, it’s just one more step forward.

[00:02:39] Right. So I think reinvention of the business is always thinking, what do I need next? Or, what does the business need next? Or, what do my customers need next to continue to stay relevant, to continue to stay alive, to continue to have cash flow, to continue for me to, like, stay interested in the business?

[00:02:57] So it always feels like whatever’s working right now, I wanna really enjoy it. Mm-hmm. But know that in probably, like, three to five years, it will not be working anymore, and if I don’t have the next thing lined up- Mm-hmm … for what’s going to work then after that, then, then you’re gonna be in trouble. Right.

[00:03:14] And so that’s, when I think of, like, reinvention for the business, it’s always like- Do what’s working now and don’t sabotage that, but also I’ve gotta be thinking about what’s the next thing or what’s the next lever that I need to pull or whatever, so that as this begins to taper down, something new can kind of begin to taper up.

[00:03:29] So

[00:03:29] Nathan: if we were to go through, like, maybe four cycles of the business.

[00:03:34] Shawn: Sure.

[00:03:34] Nathan: When we, when we first met, I think you were doing content about the whole Apple and Mac industry. And so it was apps and tools- Right … and all that. Is that-

[00:03:45] Shawn: Yeah … that accurate? I s- I started… Yeah, so I started in 2011 as, like, an Apple blogger.

[00:03:50] Mm. So I was like tech nerd stuff, and I would review, like, Apple apps. Um, like the iPhone was young at that time.

[00:03:58] Nathan: And that was the world that I was in as well.

[00:03:59] Shawn: Yeah, I think that’s how we even got connected was, like, ’cause you were doing app design. Yep. And so you were like an Apple nerd. I had

[00:04:04] Nathan: a few- And, yeah

[00:04:05] a, a few of my own apps and- Right … then wrote a book about it, and so- Yeah … we’re all in the same world.

[00:04:11] Shawn: So yeah, I started as Apple tech blogger reviewer, um, and was in that space for quite a while, and then I think I saw your stuff with your… It was, like, your app design, your handbook I think- Yep … was like the first whatever product that you came out with.

[00:04:26] Yeah. And saw how that, like, “Hey, I took something that I learned and then I sold it on the internet, and I made a, a lot of money from selling it on the internet.” Yeah.

[00:04:35] Nathan: It made 20 grand in a week.

[00:04:37] Shawn: Which is amazing, right? And-

[00:04:39] Nathan: Do you remember from that, like, the first iteration when it was mostly affiliates or advertising- Yeah

[00:04:44] what the revenue was? Like, in 2011, 2012, like, the,

[00:04:47] Shawn: that- For me?

[00:04:47] Nathan: Yeah, was

[00:04:48] Shawn: that- Yeah. I’d been doing it on the side for a couple years- Okay … like, just, like, as a hobby.

[00:04:52] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:04:53] Shawn: And so I was doing only, like, affiliate stuff, like on Amazon, and then some sponsorships, like, and it was just a blog.

[00:05:00] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:05:00] Shawn: Like, I didn’t have a newsletter, I didn’t have a podcast.

[00:05:02] This was just blogging. And, like,

[00:05:03] Nathan: Daring Fireball would be, like, the legend in the space, right?

[00:05:05] Shawn: Yeah, like John Gruber was- Yeah … for sure, like, um, you know, huge inspiration- Mm-hmm … uh, et cetera, like looked up to him quite a bit. So- That, those first couple years, um, when I started, I went full-time in 2011, and I was like, “I’m gonna do a podcast and you guys can sp- support me for $3 a month.”

[00:05:24] Yeah. And it was like a Patreon style, but Patreon didn’t exist at the time. Right. And so you had to send me a PayPal, like $3 on PayPal, and then I would manually email you the link to my private podcast feed, ’cause you couldn’t do authenticated password pod- Right … so it was, like, so janky. But I was able, for that plus a couple other things, I was, like, 50 grand a year, maybe- Okay

[00:05:46] 55 a year- Yeah … for that first year. But that was, that actually replaced my previous salary, ’cause I was working for a church before that. Oh, yeah. And so I was like, “Hey, oh, this is working.”

[00:05:54] Nathan: My last salary was 63,000 a year. Yeah. So, you know, as an amount of money, we were like- It works … ”

[00:05:59] Shawn: Okay, this is amazing.” I was like, “Oh, I- it worked.

[00:06:00] I can do this. Okay.” And so then, um, through sponsorship stuff, like, it slowly began to grow and I, I think it took, like, about a year till I got to closer to, like, 100 grand a year. Mm-hmm. Um, I did my first product launch, kind of followed your path, like your framework, um, along with, like, Jeff Walker’s stuff.

[00:06:17] Nathan: Oh, yeah.

[00:06:18] Shawn: And it was, like, an e-book. And then that was- What was the

[00:06:21] Nathan: book?

[00:06:21] Shawn: It was called Delight Is In The Details.

[00:06:23] Nathan: Okay.

[00:06:23] Shawn: And it was just about, like, when you sweat the details, it’s more enjoyable for you as a creator, but then also, like, your, uh, your audience delights in the details when you also- Yeah … pay attention to them.

[00:06:34] So that was my first product launch, and that did really well, but I didn’t have an email list.

[00:06:39] Nathan: Mm.

[00:06:39] Shawn: And so I just literally, like, posted about it on my blog, and I think I made, like, five or six grand in a week, which is still, like, awesome, and then that turned into s- then residual revenue as people would buy it over time.

[00:06:48] And so I was like, “Oh, you can make more money by selling direct products to your audience.” So then I was like, “I gotta try this email thing. Like, Nathan keeps talking about- Yeah … this email thing.” So I built, like, a pre-launch list on MailChimp. Sorry.

[00:07:01] Nathan: Uh, I mean, I

[00:07:01] Shawn: built my- Kit didn’t exist at the time, so. I built my pre-launch

[00:07:03] Nathan: list on

[00:07:03] Shawn: MailChimp as well.

[00:07:04] Exactly. We, we were all using MailChimp. And then I relaunched the book a year later, and instead of doing, like, six grand, I think I did, like, 30 grand.

[00:07:12] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:07:12] Shawn: And all of that came from the email list. And I was like, “Oh, why, why did I just now figure this out?” And so- Well, when- Yeah …

[00:07:19] Nathan: like, you get to this moment where you realize, like, “Wait, I just made 50% of my previous year’s salary,” or- Mm-hmm

[00:07:23] like, the last job that I had. Yeah. Yeah. 50% of that salary in a week- In a week … or a month or, you know, and, and you’re just like, “I can’t do this every single month.” Mm-hmm. Right? I can’t do the same big launch all the time. But, like- Man, there’s a whole new world open to me, and i- it’s just, it’s a crazy transformation

[00:07:39] Shawn: It really is.

[00:07:39] And it’s fun because then I felt like I could build things. Mm-hmm. I could go into, like, a monk mode and design a product or build a product- Mm-hmm … and then, uh, and then come out and sell it, and then not only get the launch revenue from that, but then all the ongoing residual, like, over time. And, um, and it took me off this hamster wheel of having to keep my traffic up for sponsorship posts- Right

[00:08:01] having to link to certain things for the affiliate revenue. So stepping out of the Apple tech space, um, primarily for sponsorships and affiliates, and then moving more into, like, direct products directly for my customers- Yep … um, was kind of that next phase of, like, reinvention for the business. Um, and I remember, like, personally feeling a ton of, uh, like, imposter syndrome or, like, this fear of rejection- Yeah

[00:08:27] of my future customers being mad at me, which we can get into this later. Okay. This has been a huge, like, theme for me, was I was like, “They are going to buy this e-book for $9 and they are going to, like, come burn down my door and demand their money, and they’re gonna be mad. Like, uh, like, people are going to be so mad at me.”

[00:08:47] I don’t know, like, there was stuff going on, which we can get into this later. Yep. And so having to push through that fear of, like, the potential rejection or the fe- the negative feedback- Mm-hmm … or whatever it may be, and just be comfortable with putting my stuff out there and actually selling it.

[00:09:00] Nathan: What helps to get past that?

[00:09:01] Because I think a lot of people have that in the early days of, like, “Who am I to do this?” Yeah. Or, “Someone else would do, do it better,” or, you know, any of those things. Even I’ve talked to people- who are totally fine building it in front of strangers- Mm-hmm … but would not tell their family.

[00:09:14] Shawn: Yeah.

[00:09:14] Nathan: Uh- So real

[00:09:16] there’s this, this little unknown author named James Clear, who got to, I think, 100,000 subscribers on his newsletter-

[00:09:23] Shawn: Mm-hmm …

[00:09:24] Nathan: before he told his family that he was writing a newsletter.

[00:09:26] Shawn: Oh, my, that’s

[00:09:26] Nathan: hilarious. Like,

[00:09:29] Shawn: you know? Why is it… Yeah, it’s, it’s, it’s… ‘Cause it’s a different version of us.

[00:09:32] Nathan: He

[00:09:32] Shawn: would

[00:09:32] Nathan: not post to his personal- Yeah

[00:09:32] Facebook page at all- Yeah … until it got to, like, a crazy amount of traction. Yeah. He was like, “Okay, now I guess this is good enough that I’m not embarrassed by it.”

[00:09:38] Shawn: That’s crazy. That’s hilarious. I think for me, the big thing was I just, I did it scared.

[00:09:44] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:09:44] Shawn: And I was afraid that things would go wrong, and I just did it anyways.

[00:09:47] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:09:47] Shawn: And also, I would, like, in the early days, I would send, like, an early draft of the book or, like, a beta access to the course to people that I liked and trusted, and I would ask for honest feedback. And then they would say, “Oh, this is good,” or, “I like this,” or whatever. And so then I would, like, trust their feedback and like they’re, they’re being honest with me.

[00:10:05] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:10:06] Shawn: I still feel scared, but, you know, the only red flags are the ones that I feel, like, my, my fear, and I’m gonna- Right … do it afraid anyways.

[00:10:13] Nathan: Yeah. I like that. Okay, so then when did the Focus course come in?

[00:10:17] Shawn: That came in in 2016. No, 2015. Yeah. Sorry. 2015, and that was, like, my first big, like, a flagship course.

[00:10:27] Yeah. And I had… Because I was doing this Patreon podcast thing, people gave me $3 a month. How much, how

[00:10:31] Nathan: much money did you make off the,

[00:10:33] Shawn: like-

[00:10:34] Nathan: So- What did the MR get to on-

[00:10:35] Shawn: Yeah … the

[00:10:35] Nathan: $3 podcast? It got to, like, 40 grand a year. So- Okay … I guess, yeah,

[00:10:39] Shawn: so like 35- That’s pretty good … 35 to 4,000 a month.

[00:10:41] Nathan: That’s, that’s legit.

[00:10:42] Shawn: Yeah. I had, yeah, I had, like, 800 people giving me, you know, three… And then I, I raised the rate to $4 a month.

[00:10:48] Nathan: Ooh, big moves.

[00:10:48] Shawn: And, yeah. And then, yeah, good times.

[00:10:51] Nathan: I mean, that’s almost a 50% increase, so.

[00:10:53] Shawn: It’s true. It- it’s true, like, from three to four. And so I o- I did a series on that podcast around productivity and some of the- Mm

[00:11:00] stuff that I had personally learned on values and time management, stuff like that. And I got more listener feedback during that series on the productivity stuff than all the other shows, ’cause it, the show is called Sean Today. Yeah. And it was a daily episode. So I did, I think I did, like, 1,000 episodes over the course of a few years.

[00:11:17] And so then, like, I did this s- I would have to find, like… When you’re doing a, a daily show, like, you gotta just find stuff to talk about. So I’ll just, “I’ll do a whole series on all my productivity stuff.” Mm-hmm. And then that turned into, like, people loved it and wanted to know more, and so I’m like, “Oh, I get it.

[00:11:30] I could turn this into an e-book.” And then I’m like, “Oh,” I saw people doing these online courses where they were charging, like, 2, 3, $400 for the course. Right.

[00:11:38] Nathan: And that seemed very expensive at the time.

[00:11:39] Shawn: Oh, my gosh, so much compared to the $9

[00:11:42] Nathan: e-book. Oh, yeah.

[00:11:42] Shawn: And, uh, so I was like, “Oh, I could do, instead of it as a book, I could do Like, videos- Mm-hmm

[00:11:48] and do it as a course, and I could charge way more.

[00:11:50] Nathan: Also, I gotta say- Yeah … your stuff always looked so good. Oh, thank you. Maybe it’s, like, the, you know, always caring about the details.

[00:11:55] Shawn: Mm-hmm.

[00:11:56] Nathan: But I remember your videos about the course, and shot on a DSLR.

[00:12:01] Shawn: Right.

[00:12:02] Nathan: Right? Like, there’s a good setup there. You had depth of field behind you- Mm-hmm

[00:12:05] and then, you know, like, a, a light in the background. You know, like, some of these things that are very, very common now.

[00:12:10] Shawn: Right.

[00:12:10] Nathan: But everyone was doing stuff on their webcams. Yeah. And so

[00:12:13] Shawn: Well, I had a good… Well, and one of my best friends in Kansas City was an aspiring videographer.

[00:12:17] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:12:18] Shawn: So I’m like… He… Like, we traded, basically, for exposure.

[00:12:21] And it was like I gave him… I can’t remember. It was pennies, basically. Right. But he had all the gear and was testing out the stuff, so it worked out very well for me. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:12:28] Nathan: But it’s… Those are the ways that you stood out then- Yeah … of, like, leveling up. You know, I did it through, uh, like, designing, like, long-form sales pages- Mm-hmm

[00:12:37] that were actually beautifully designed.

[00:12:38] Shawn: Yeah. You know,

[00:12:39] Nathan: like I

[00:12:39] Shawn: remember. I- Yeah. I studied those pages.

[00:12:41] Nathan: Yeah. And so, you know, the same thing. You- Mm-hmm … you know, you could go and say, “Oh, if I have the right aesthetic and clearly a level of quality.” And it had, like, this zen-like feel to it. It’s like, oh, the Focus Course.

[00:12:53] Mm-hmm. You know? And so, and- Yeah … everything just fit. But it stood out because of the attention to, to detail.

[00:12:57] Shawn: Yeah. Thank you. So we launched that in June of 2015.

[00:13:02] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:13:02] Shawn: And that was, like, that was, like, a life-changing launch. Mm-hmm. And I took everything I had learned from the previous, like, The Light Is in the Details book launches, studied a lot of your stuff, had other friends who’d done product launches.

[00:13:14] Mm-hmm. And just, like, I teased it. Like, I just, I launched the crap out of that thing. And it did, like, 135,000 in that first launch week. And I had, like, my Apple Watch with the Stripe app, like- Yeah … on. And so my wife and I called it the bling ding, where, like, every time someone would buy the course, I would get a Stripe notification.

[00:13:35] It was like, oh, there was… ‘Cause we had, like, the launch pricing, so it was like 200 bucks as, like, the early thing. And we’re, like, getting these, like, blings. And so the last, like, day of the launch, I had kind of tallied up the math, and I was like, “Okay, we need, like, three more sales, and we’ll, we’ll cross, like, 100 grand.”

[00:13:50] Mm-hmm. So I got, like, some really nice whiskey out of my cabinet, and, like, poured two, like, little shots for me and Anna. And then we waited for, like, the third one, and when that sale came in and we crossed 100 grand, we, like, cheers- … and we, you know, had this little thing. I love that. But that was huge because- Oh, yeah

[00:14:05] previously I was, my business was doing, like, about 100 grand for the year, and then I just hit 100 grand in a week.

[00:14:10] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:14:10] Shawn: And I’m like, “I don’t know what to do with this.” Like, I wanted to buy a car. I wanted to- Right … like, move. Um, do I hire someone? I don’t… And I just… This was June. I just sa- I just put it in a savings account.

[00:14:19] I didn’t touch it. And I would just scroll, like, and look at cars, and, like, spend the money vicariously and, like, think about spending it. But I’m like, I can… I could do something with this if I, if I don’t screw it up.

[00:14:29] Nathan: There are some of those moments that as an entrepreneur you’re, you’re like, “Wait, what happened?”

[00:14:33] Especially if you-

[00:14:33] Shawn: Yeah …

[00:14:34] Nathan: like, if we were working normal jobs, we might work our way up- Mm … from 60,000, then get a job at 75,000- Right … then get a job at 80. You know, and then you get a raise and up from here. And we’d go from maybe eventually we’re making $200,000 a year or something like that. Mm-hmm. But we’d probably go on that journey over the course of seven, 10 years.

[00:14:51] I don’t know.

[00:14:51] Shawn: Right.

[00:14:52] Nathan: Right? And you have these moments as a, as an entrepreneur, and especially as a creator, because you have so much leverage, right? This audience, you know, the right product market fit with an audience priced well, all of that. It happens so quickly.

[00:15:04] Shawn: Mm-hmm.

[00:15:05] Nathan: I remember fairly early on building Kit and getting to, um…

[00:15:11] I’m trying to remember what the dollar amount was in the bank. It might’ve been, like, 200 grand, something like that. Mm-hmm. And I was… This was just 200 grand sitting in a checking account, and I’m, like, asking this group of entrepreneurs, like, “What do I do with this?” Like, this is, this is not- Right … this should be protected in some way.

[00:15:26] This should be all of this. And, uh, this guy who’s the CEO of Bench, the accounting company-

[00:15:31] Shawn: Mm-hmm …

[00:15:31] Nathan: just responded in Slack, ’cause I was talking about this, and he goes, “Hey, $200,000 is a very normal amount of money to have in a business bank account.” And I was like, “Wait. Wait, really?” But it’s exactly that same feeling- Yeah

[00:15:41] you’re talking about of, like, you get 100 grand from your launch and you’re like, “What am I supposed to do with this?” Mm-hmm. And it takes someone going, “Hey, this is normal.” It’s fine. “You don’t need to spend it.” Yeah. “You do, you don’t need to, you know, do all this- Yeah … fancy stuff with it.” Like, this is the new normal.

[00:15:54] Shawn: Yeah, it’s true, and it, it did become… It’s interesting how that becomes normalized then. Mm-hmm. It’s like, “Oh, yeah, that’s, that’s totally fine.” What used to be so much money now is, like, you know, the OS. It’s, like, our baseline what we always- Right … keep in the checking account all the time. Yeah. Um,

[00:16:08] Nathan: yeah. Okay, so you did the launch for the Focus course.

[00:16:10] I remember probably around that time-

[00:16:12] Shawn: Mm-hmm …

[00:16:12] Nathan: we had the whole Kit team go through it.

[00:16:14] Shawn: Yeah.

[00:16:14] Nathan: So you had this balance of, like, direct to consumer, and then you also had some companies.

[00:16:18] Shawn: Yeah, we started doing some public trainings as well, or, like, corporate trainings- Yeah … as well where, where-

[00:16:21] Nathan: It was really fun.

[00:16:22] We got a lot out of it.

[00:16:22] Shawn: Yeah. It’s been a blast. And trying to figure out, like, different ways to, to get people to go through that course. And that kind of has turned into, like, my main thing for the last 10, 11 years now- Right … has been that Focus course, figuring out different ways to get people to go through it, et cetera.

[00:16:36] ‘Cause the initial version with an online course is, you know, very few people actually finish the material. Right. And the way that our course works is, like, if you don’t finish it, you… Like, almost all of the benefit comes from, like, the final pieces of, like- Mm-hmm … putting it all together for, like, kind of designing your whole life and making everything click.

[00:16:52] So we started doing cohorts, and we found, like, you get a lot more people to go through it that way. But, like, even with that, like, reinvention of the course itself, like, the material itself has evolved and matured and changed and simplified. You know, in those early days, I felt like charging 200 bucks, I’ve gotta put everything into this.

[00:17:12] Oh, yeah. My entire life’s work, plus all these bonuses, plus all this stuff, you know? Or they’re gonna… I still had that thing, like, people are gonna be mad at me. And now I’m like, “How much can I take out? How can I simplify this down to, like, the most- Mm … basic, simple version?” And so, like, even reinventing the way that we’re pitching the course, reinventing the way that we’re delivering it over the last 10, 11 years.

[00:17:34] Mm-hmm. And so we got into the cohort stuff and, um, and then a few other things.

[00:17:39] Nathan: I wanna dive in on the focus aspect of it.

[00:17:42] Shawn: Mm-hmm.

[00:17:42] Nathan: Because I think a lot of creators and entrepreneurs are notoriously bad at focus. Even as someone who- I’ve achieved a lot of my success through focus. And almost everyone that I talk to, when they have a breakthrough in their business- Mm-hmm

[00:17:56] you ask, like, “What was it? You started doing, like, six more things?” You- And they’re like, “No, I chose this one thing, and I went all in on it, and I- Yeah … you know, stopped doing everything else.” Uh, and that’s where my success came from. You know, like, I tell that story a bunch of times. I know that from my own lived experience, and I hear it from everyone else.

[00:18:11] Mm-hmm. And I’m like, “Yeah, but I’m not gonna do that. I’m still gonna do a million things.” What’s your approach to focus, and what… Like, what are the fundamentals that you’re teaching in the focus course?

[00:18:18] Shawn: I think a lot of it is, like, for me, focus is what I’m choosing to say no to.

[00:18:23] Nathan: Mm.

[00:18:23] Shawn: And, like, removing as much of the stuff that I don’t want to take up space in my life.

[00:18:30] And so not only for the business, for, for me personally, you know, as a husband, as a dad, as a man. Like, what am I going to say no to? And then every- Then all the, like, white space now that I’ve created, then within that I get to choose what I wanna say yes to and, like, just hold, like, those boundaries for myself.

[00:18:47] Mm-hmm. So it’s true, like you say, like, with the, the business, and it’s like… ‘Cause for a, a while I had, I had other blogs too. Like, we haven’t gotten into this, but- … but I had other businesses going. And you and I were out to dinner one time with Noah Kagan in Chicago. Yeah. And he was like, he’s like, “You have a focus business, but you also just told me, like, three other businesses.”

[00:19:04] He goes, “That seems, like, counterintuitive.” I was like- Right … “No, it’s fine.” It’s fine. And I like-

[00:19:08] Nathan: He said counterintuitive.

[00:19:10] Shawn: Yeah.

[00:19:10] Nathan: The meaner way to say it- Yes … would be hypocritical.

[00:19:12] Shawn: Right, exactly. Like, what do you do? You s- you say you teach focus, but you also have, like, these other things. Like, and you… It seems very distracted.

[00:19:19] Nathan: When… And we all do it. Yeah. Especially because this is one of those things, some advice that I hate- Mm-hmm … uh, is what got you here won’t get you there.

[00:19:27] Shawn: Yeah.

[00:19:28] Nathan: Um, because I think that it’s, it’s… That advice is true 50% of the time. You just don’t know which 50%. Mm-hmm. That’s the reason I don’t like it. But an example where I do believe it’s true is early on, you don’t have any of the skills of- Mm-hmm

[00:19:40] product launching, copywriting- Yeah … design, video, all of this stuff. And so going through a whole bunch of reps of, like, I launched this product, and it, it worked. And I kind of did this other thing, and it didn’t really work. You know, you do all of these different things, and that lack of focus to have a wide range of products serves you really well because you’re actually-

[00:19:58] Shawn: Mm-hmm

[00:19:58] Nathan: you could think of them as, like, semester-long projects in college- Yeah … that paid you money instead of racking up student loans. Right You know?

[00:20:05] Shawn: Well, and they’re tiny experiments- Yeah … in some ways as well. Yeah.

[00:20:07] Nathan: Yeah, and but you don’t need to bring them with you.

[00:20:09] Shawn: Right.

[00:20:09] Nathan: And so I went through that moment of, like, I’d done all of these things, and I chose audience overlap as my lens to decide what to keep and what to get rid of.

[00:20:18] Shawn: Mm-hmm.

[00:20:19] Nathan: But there was, like, five things that I sold off one, I shut down three, you know, and then I put another on autopilot, and I think it’s a very normal thing to do.

[00:20:28] Shawn: Yeah.

[00:20:28] Nathan: But it’s great when you have uh, friends like Noah and others who will, like… Be like, “Huh, there seems to be some misalignment here. Let me call that out.”

[00:20:35] Shawn: Right, and it’s hard to say no to stuff that’s making you money.

[00:20:38] Nathan: Right.

[00:20:38] Shawn: And it’s hard to say, like, this is actually a distraction- Mm-hmm … even though it’s, like, generating revenue and creating… There’s… ‘Cause you can, as an entrepreneur, often you can see, like, the potential of that thing. Mm-hmm. Um, but I call it the burden of opportunity, where these are a lot of opportunities, but if you say yes to all of them, you know, as we know, like, none of them will reach their potential.

[00:20:57] And so deciding what you’re actually going to… What are you gonna shut down? What are you gonna say no to?

[00:21:00] Nathan: Right. So I’m curious, what would you say to an entrepreneur who has a lot of good things going on but can’t seem to focus?

[00:21:06] Shawn: I’ve been there. You’ve been there. I call this the burden of opportunity, where…

[00:21:10] Because as an entrepreneur, you’ve got lots of ideas, and you can see the roads and the paths that they’re leading to, and they’re all exciting to you. They kind of feel like you’re… Like, these are your babies. And when you have all those opportunities, you have to still find a way to say no to some of them and choose the one thing that you really want to give your most attention to, to allow that to be the thing that’s gonna grow.

[00:21:31] Nathan: Do you have a framework or a process that you use to say no? ‘Cause that’s the hardest thing for me.

[00:21:35] Shawn: Mm-hmm.

[00:21:36] Nathan: There’s so many opportunities coming. And I’ll even quote- Yeah … smart people like Richard Branson. Mm-hmm. He always says, “Opportunities are like buses. There’s always another one coming.” And I can say that quote, and then I’m like, I’m like, “Yeah, let’s get on that bus.

[00:21:47] And the next one.” Yeah. And I think as the team gets bigger, you can do that. You can run more and more things. But I struggle so much with focusing, and so I’m, I’m very curious, like, how you say no.

[00:21:57] Shawn: So it’s gonna be different for everybody. For me, though, the, one of the frameworks that we teach is, it’s just values-based, and then also margin-based.

[00:22:05] Nathan: Mm.

[00:22:06] Shawn: And so I’ll explain these to you. So values-based obviously is what do you value? Like, what do you care about, like, personally as the business owner? As well as what do you care about for your team or for the business and for the company itself? Like, what are the values that you have? And so when you’ve got two or three kind of core values that you know what they are, you can name them, they’re, they’re familiar, you know what they mean to you, then when I have an opportunity that comes my way, I can just…

[00:22:31] Like, initial, like, quick gut check. Does this fit, like, with my personal core values? If I start this kind of a business or if I take the business in this direction, does this align with what I feel, like, most important about, and does it match with my core values? Because if it does match, then when it’s hard and when it’s a grind or when it’s not working or when you’re really afraid, because it matches with your core values, you have, like, extra motivation.

[00:22:56] You have the energy. You can see the why behind it, and it’ll help you keep going. And then also when it matches and it succeeds, then you’ve built a life that you love.

[00:23:05] Nathan: Right.

[00:23:05] Shawn: And you’re doing something that you love that aligns with the core values for who you are, and, like, that to me is the dream. Mm.

[00:23:10] Like, that’s everything. That’s success right there. And then the other piece, the margin piece, this is really important for me personally. Um, I really want a lot of breathing room in my life. I want a lot of white space. I want a lot of just, um, opportunity to just- Be spontaneous- Yeah … during my weeks and things like this.

[00:23:28] I don’t like a lot of meetings on my calendar. I don’t like, um, being pulled into the day-to-day for my business. I don’t like having to do stuff to keep the business running. I just want, like, options, and I also only wanna work, like, 25 hours a week, and then te- be able to have slow mornings, and early evenings, and, like, lots of time off, and be able to travel, and take my kids places, and go camping and backpacking, all this stuff.

[00:23:51] So for me, I’m also always looking for what I pursue in the business, is this gonna give me more breathing room, or is it gonna give me less breathing room? Um, and if it’s gonna give me less, is it a trade-off, like temporary, or is this going to become the new normal?

[00:24:06] Nathan: Mm.

[00:24:07] Shawn: And do I see a clear path through to, to get back to, like, a lower, like, calmer lifestyle?

[00:24:13] So for me, those are the two things that I’m always looking for.

[00:24:15] Nathan: Is there an example of something that you’re like, “Okay, I really wanna do this,” but it… and m- and its value is aligned. Mm. Maybe it’s not margin aligned. Yeah. And you’re like, “Okay, but I’m gonna dive in and do it, and I’m, uh, you know, for a season, because I can see a path to getting back to the life that I

[00:24:29] Shawn: want.”

[00:24:29] Mm-hmm. Um, yeah, like a product launch- Mm … would be, like, something like that of, or like a new feature, or when we do, like, a training or, like, an event or a treat or something like that where it’s gonna be, it’s gonna be intense. Yeah. And sometimes it’s gonna be, like, three months intense or, you know, maybe six months.

[00:24:46] Right. Um, like I started a new business this year, which I think we’ll get into, and so there was definitely, like, a shift in, like, my time and energy, like, going into that. Um, but I saw the, the path through for, like, what I was trying to get to. Mm-hmm. And then sometimes there’s things where it’s a, an, a business opportunity that feels values aligned, but I’m like, it’s not gonna, I’m not gonna enjoy it.

[00:25:05] Like, like a YouTube channel. I’ve always wanted to start a YouTube channel. I think it’d be super fun, but I’m like, I just, I don’t think I want the grind of, like, having- Right … to be on that constant cadence, doing it with excellence, coming up with ideas, all that stuff. I’m like, I just, I don’t think I would enjoy being a YouTuber.

[00:25:20] Nathan: Right. Okay, yeah. That’s so interesting. You want the outcome, but you don’t want the process, and so that’s something you say no to.

[00:25:27] Shawn: Yeah.

[00:25:28] Nathan: Yeah. Um, okay, so let’s, uh, keep going in the focus course because so many people, at least my version of doing courses-

[00:25:35] Shawn: Mm-hmm …

[00:25:35] Nathan: was I would reinvent it, you know, or do something different.

[00:25:40] I probably did, well, let’s rattle them off, did the Apps as a Handbook, Designing Web App- Applications, Authority, Mastering Product Launches, Photoshop for Web Design, and then one on building profitable audiences. Yeah. So that’s, I think, in like a three-year period, I did six-

[00:25:54] Shawn: Yeah … different- And now you got your Flywheels course and a few others.

[00:25:55] Nathan: I have the Flywheels course. Yeah. Yeah, so that, I mean, that was just- Yeah … back then. Um, the Flywheels course is, like, born out of an obsession more than a- Right … um, a business. Yeah, so I think I did six in two and a half years, and so I was always making something new.

[00:26:09] Shawn: Mm-hmm.

[00:26:11] Nathan: I feel like you, um, who else is good at this?

[00:26:14] Ramit Sethi, uh, Marie Forleo, you know, with B-School. Yeah. Like, you get some of these people who, like, this is their flagship thing, and they do it over and over again.

[00:26:22] Shawn: Yeah.

[00:26:22] Nathan: Like, how did you… Obviously, it’s the title of the course, but how did you stay focused and, and keep, like, breathing new life into this- Mm-hmm

[00:26:29] every year for many years?

[00:26:31] Shawn: In some ways I didn’t breathe new life into it.

[00:26:33] Nathan: Okay.

[00:26:33] Shawn: So, like, it, you know, had a big $100,000, $135,000 launch when it came out. Mm-hmm. We did more subsequent launches. None, none of them ever matched that first launch.

[00:26:42] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:26:42] Shawn: It still did… I mean, I don’t know how many millions it’s done over the last 11 years.

[00:26:45] So still done a lot of revenue but, um, like the big launch. And so we did other courses on the side, like we did a course on margin and breathing room. We’ve done a course on time management. We’ve done a course on task management. So we did, um, add-on courses. Yeah. That after someone would go through the focus course, they’d be like, “Okay, this is great.”

[00:27:03] Here’s what’s next. “But I don’t know how to manage my calendar.” Yeah. Okay. Well, here’s a course on how to manage your calendar. I don’t know how to manage my tasks. Mm-hmm. So here’s a course for that. So in some ways it was like we just started bolting on, like additional, like next paths, like do this next, do this next, and then created this, you know, ended up with like a whole library of stuff.

[00:27:20] So that was one way that I kind of like got around that, that thing. But they were all part of the same ecosystem.

[00:27:25] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:27:26] Shawn: And then also, um, you have to choose which direction you’re gonna go. Are you going to double down on this thing and iterate on it?

[00:27:33] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:27:33] Shawn: And continue to sell the same thing to like really understand that core audience?

[00:27:39] Um, like Sam Vander Wielen does this really well, like with her legal templates. Like she knows exactly her audience- Oh, yeah … exactly who to buy. And so she just has really doubled down on that. And she’s doing like

[00:27:46] Nathan: 3, 4, $500,000 worth launches. Right. Yeah, just

[00:27:49] Shawn: crushing

[00:27:49] Nathan: it. At a time when people are like, “Oh, courses and templates are dead.”

[00:27:52] Yeah. And she’s like, ”

[00:27:53] Shawn: Okay.” She’s like, “Yeah, hold

[00:27:54] Nathan: my beer.” “My audience didn’t get the memo.” My audience didn’t get the memo. “So I think I’ll just keep cashing these checks.”

[00:27:58] Shawn: Yeah. Um, so that’s a path to go. Or the other path is you cr- keep creating something new, and you keep selling new things to the same people.

[00:28:05] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:28:06] Shawn: And this is… Like they’re both valuable, and they both work. It’s just like deciding, do you wanna keep creating the new thing, or do you wanna kind of double down- Mm-hmm … on what you’ve got that’s working really well? So for me, I loved just the topic of the focus course. I love that ecosystem. Um, it’s stuff that I could teach in my sleep.

[00:28:21] I love talking about it. So I loved building that out and kind of going that direction, um, and pursuing that, pursuing that.

[00:28:29] Nathan: Yeah. You know, a mistake that I see creators make is they, they focus on a topic that they’re either passionate about in the moment, but not long term.

[00:28:37] Shawn: Mm-hmm.

[00:28:37] Nathan: Or is trendy in the moment.

[00:28:39] Shawn: Yeah.

[00:28:39] Nathan: And then there’s no longevity in that.

[00:28:41] Shawn: Yeah.

[00:28:42] Nathan: But turns out, like focus, productivity, some of, some of these ideas, um, you know, like great writing or how to build wealth or… Like there’s a, a- Right … there’s categories of ideas that will always- They’re

[00:28:52] Shawn: generationally relevant.

[00:28:53] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:28:53] Shawn: Yeah.

[00:28:54] Nathan: Someone could have written about them 100 years ago.

[00:28:56] Shawn: Mm-hmm.

[00:28:56] Nathan: And the writing today will look a little bit different, you know? Um, but it’s still- It’s the

[00:29:01] Shawn: same …

[00:29:01] Nathan: it’s the same core, core principle. Same

[00:29:02] Shawn: principles, yeah.

[00:29:03] Nathan: Versus like how to do this one thing with this one tool. Mm-hmm. You know, if you did a, um… I care about design, so if I did a, a course on… Well, I did Photoshop for web design.

[00:29:12] Yeah. We don’t use Photoshop for web design anymore. No. Right? Or if you did it on Sketch, like we don’t, we don’t use that.

[00:29:17] Shawn: Completely

[00:29:17] Nathan: irrelevant. Even Figma, which dominates the market as a de- as the design space, you’re like, well, maybe Cloud Design-

[00:29:24] Shawn: Mm-hmm …

[00:29:24] Nathan: is the, is a thing.

[00:29:25] Shawn: Yeah.

[00:29:26] Nathan: And so I think finding the container that’s big enough that can hold wherever the industry goes.

[00:29:33] Like, you wouldn’t wanna be known for something very, very specific, but you, you know, at this point you could be, like, AI for design. Mm-hmm. And that would be an interesting topic of-

[00:29:41] Shawn: Yeah …

[00:29:41] Nathan: and how to do it. So, like, making sure the container’s broad enough.

[00:29:44] Shawn: Right. Yeah.

[00:29:45] Nathan: But then you started to focus on, uh, like, started to do other projects.

[00:29:48] Shawn: Mm-hmm.

[00:29:48] Nathan: Right? And lose interest in the, in the focus course. Is that right?

[00:29:51] Shawn: I did. So we… We’re at 11 years now. Yeah. As we’re recording this, it’s, like, in a couple weeks. And around, like, I’d say, so probably two years ago, 18 months ago, two years ago- Mm … I started getting, like, bored-

[00:30:02] Nathan: Yep …

[00:30:03] Shawn: in the business. And it’s funny you say, like, the, what got you here won’t get you there.

[00:30:07] This is only relevant 50% of the time. Like, I like to say the same thing. Like, your business isn’t your hobby. And so it’s like you will get bored in your business, but keep doing what’s working. Um, and don’t, like, don’t sabotage it just because you’re bored. Mm. And that’s the 50% of what got you here actually will get you there.

[00:30:24] You’re just bored of it.

[00:30:25] Nathan: There’s another quote that might be, uh, um, too rough, but, you know, but it’s that most businesses die by suicide, not homicide.

[00:30:33] Shawn: Yeah.

[00:30:33] Nathan: Like, they… Almost nothing else comes in from the outside to kill it. Mm. It’s usually something internal, like founder strife, uh, the founder getting bored, a team issue, you know.

[00:30:41] Yeah. Any of those things. Um, like, businesses are rarely killed from the outside.

[00:30:45] Shawn: Yeah. Self-sabotage. Yeah. Exactly. And so I could feel that, uh, that I was getting bored with it, but I gotta stick with this, right? Right. My business isn’t my hobby, and so it’s working. I’m gonna keep going with, going with as well.

[00:30:58] But I knew, like, what’s gonna be the next thing. So on the side, I had this other, not a… It wasn’t a business going, but I had this other, these other activities of, like, the community stuff. Mm. And I was around some people, and they gave me some really helpful advice around, like, maybe your business is stuck because you’re stuck.

[00:31:17] And, like, that was sort of like, oh, oh, oh. Like, it all started to kind of, like, click for me. I was like, oh, maybe my business is, is boring because I’m bored, and- Mm … it’s stuck, like, because I’m stuck, and there’s something, something with me. Like, the business isn’t broken, my audience isn’t broken, the offer isn’t broken.

[00:31:34] Like, I’m broken as the- Okay … the leader.

[00:31:37] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:31:38] Shawn: And-

[00:31:38] Nathan: That’s a scary thing to sit with …

[00:31:40] Shawn: it was- It was actually really liberating. Mm. Um, uh, like our friend Daryl was kind of the first person to mention it, and then several other friends like, uh, Tim and B- or Barrett who’ve all been on the show-

[00:31:51] Nathan: Yep …

[00:31:52] Shawn: um, were really helpful in like talking that through.

[00:31:55] And so for me like realizing, oh, I think I need to figure out some stuff for myself and maybe that will help like unlock what’s next for the business.

[00:32:02] Nathan: Let’s dive into the idea of reinventing yourself.

[00:32:04] Shawn: Yeah. ‘

[00:32:05] Nathan: Cause I think that that’s so important. When you start to realize, okay, I’m stuck-

[00:32:10] Shawn: Mm-hmm …

[00:32:11] Nathan: you know, I might be the limiting factor in this business, what are the things that you went through on the personal side and how did you start to unpack that?

[00:32:19] Shawn: Um, what’s fascinating is, so this actually ends up leading to the biggest breakthrough for the business- Mm … that I’ve had in 15 years, which we’ll get to that. So I remember, this is about a year ago. I was in Colorado, and I’ve been doing these retreats in Colorado every summer for- Mm … quite a while. And so I’m out in Colorado preparing for the retreat and I broke my toe, and so I was just sitting on the couch.

[00:32:39] I couldn’t do anything, and we were visiting with family. So they’re all at the pool and I’m just home at our rental like hanging out by myself. So I just started journaling about like what’s the next 10 years for my life and for, for my business and what is this gonna look like. And I’m writing stuff down and I’m journaling about 10 years in my marriage, 10 years with my kids- Mm

[00:32:57] 10 years for my wife’s business. And I get to the Focus Core stuff and I’m like, what does it look like in 10 years from now? I had nothing. It was just- Mm. I- it was li-

[00:33:06] Nathan: So it’s flowing in all the other categories- Yeah … and you get to that category and you’re like, uh.

[00:33:09] Shawn: It was just a black hole. I just didn’t…

[00:33:10] It was cloudy. I couldn’t see anything. Mm. And that was when I began to realize, I’m like, I think, I think maybe I’m done with this. Mm. And I had like, this was one year ago and so it was two years ago that I realized I think I’m the one who’s stuck. Okay. So in between that time, um, I started going to therapy.

[00:33:28] Mm. I started getting like some professional help, doing like a lot of internal work and that like opened up a ton for me and just like helped. I kept, I’ve told you about this like fear of rejection with like putting our stuff out there and I realized I had like some, I had real issues of like fear that people would like not like me from like childhood friends and just ways that you’re treated in high school.

[00:33:50] Like nothing major- Mm … but like it just sits there, you know, and it, it, it, you know, hangs out with you. I took it, brought it into my business with me. So being able to work through a lot of that, um, gave me like some confidence to be willing to try new things. And then as I’m journaling about the future of the business and realizing I don’t know if I see a future for it, maybe I’m done with it, and just being able to be okay with I could shut this down after 10 years and it would be all right.

[00:34:20] So that was, like, a huge, like, revelation for me of I could start something new, and I could end this thing that I’ve been doing for the last 10 years that is my whole online brand, my, my whole Instagram account. It’s all about Focus. Like, this is all the stuff that I’ve done. I could… I could let that go, and it would be okay.

[00:34:36] I wouldn’t be a failure.

[00:34:37] Nathan: Well, you said something. You said that earlier, right? That it was hard not to think of yourself as a failure-

[00:34:41] Shawn: Mm-hmm …

[00:34:42] Nathan: if the business is shut down.

[00:34:43] Shawn: Right.

[00:34:44] Nathan: Like, uh, and then contrasting that with what you just said of, like, okay, I could get to that point where you’re like, “Oh, no, actually, these are separate fr- from me.

[00:34:50] Like, I can, I can end a season, close a chapter-

[00:34:53] Shawn: Mm-hmm …

[00:34:54] Nathan: and not be a failure,” especially as you’re like, “Oh, it made millions of dollars.”

[00:34:58] Shawn: Yeah.

[00:34:58] Nathan: Um, how do you reconcile that? Like, how did you go from point A to point B, where you’re like, “Oh, okay, let me actually separate my identity in that way”?

[00:35:07] Shawn: I just had to sit with it for a while-

[00:35:08] Nathan: Hmm

[00:35:08] Shawn: and, like, be willing to, like, put the business on the table and to be like- Mm-hmm … this course, which has become, like, my flagship thing that I’ve done for 10 years. It’s what everyone knows me for. Um, I love talking about it. I love doing it, but I think I could close the chapter on it, and that would be okay.

[00:35:28] It had a good long run. It, you know, it did what it needed to do, and I can, like, thank it. I can thank my customers. Like, and then what I’ve learned from it, and now I can go move on to maybe the next thing.

[00:35:42] Nathan: You said thank it, and that’s something that stands out to me. Like, I think that gratitude is the single most helpful emotion to get to closure.

[00:35:51] Shawn: Mm-hmm

[00:35:52] Nathan: And we have all these experiences or things that we’ve been running or relationships or what- whatever else, and they’re not all good and they’re not all bad. Yeah. Like, there’s so much of it. And when you can sit with this idea, you can sit with gratitude and say like, you know, “Thank you for the revenue, the house that enabled us to purchase, the, the skills that I learned through it, through the rela- re- relationships that I made,” all of those things.

[00:36:18] And you can go through the, the hard things as well, and you’re like, “Oh, thank you for the pain that this caused when,” I don’t know, “the spammers took over, the credit card fraud- Right … and all this because I, I learned in this area and I grew. I became more resilient. Like, thank you for, you know, the failed relationships because I learned how to navigate conflict.

[00:36:36] Mm-hmm. Like, any of those things. It’s a long way of saying I, I just believe that gratitude is the single most effective practice for getting to closure and peace.

[00:36:44] Shawn: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Um, Marie Kondo talks about this in her book- Mm … with tidying up. She’s like, “If you’ve had this shirt in your closet for the last year,” she’s like, “Take it out, say, ‘Thanks for teaching me that I don’t like this kind of shirt,’ and now give it away and move on.”

[00:36:59] Nathan: Yes. Yes.

[00:37:01] Shawn: Yeah, so that was a huge… Like, just being willing to sit with it was kind of how I was able to come to terms with it, and then start to say it out loud. And so, like, I mentioned it to my wife that, that evening. I was like, “I think maybe I might be done with this.” She was like, “Okay. Tell me more.” I’m like, “I don’t know.

[00:37:16] Maybe, maybe I could move on to the next thing.” Then I went to the mastermind in, in Colorado that I, I host and shared it with some of the guys that were there, and it’s like, “I think maybe I’m done with this part of my life.” And them all going like, “Yeah, we know.” Like, “What?” Friends are great. “What do you mean?”

[00:37:31] They’re like, “We’ve been waiting, like, years for you to say that you’re ready to move on to the next thing. We…” They’re like, “We’ve seen it forever. We’re just waiting for you to catch up.” Um, so that was, that was interesting to, to be able to have that conversation.

[00:37:44] Nathan: Well, let’s talk about masterminds- Yeah

[00:37:45] for a moment because- They’ve been pivotal for me in my life. Yeah. Uh, they have been for you. Mm-hmm. You’ve, uh, been to and hosted many. Um, what does it take to put together, like, that group of friends that you can… that can relate to your business and all of that, and then also can be on that level where they’re like, “Oh, yeah, no, we see you, and it’s time”?

[00:38:06] Shawn: I think that the, the biggest piece is, like, who’s in the room.

[00:38:10] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:38:10] Shawn: And I’m always looking for, like, values fit first. Like, I want, I wanna get life advice and business advice from someone whom, like, I respect the choices that, that they’ve made in their life. Mm-hmm. So I’m always looking for, for that kind of a thing.

[00:38:25] So the groups that I go to to be around and learn from are the, the ones where I’m putting it together and inviting people, I’m always looking for that values fit.

[00:38:32] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:38:32] Shawn: And then you just have to be honest with this group of people. Yeah. And, like, what’s really going on in the business, and what’s really going on with, with me, um, as the business owner so that they can give context relevant feedback and context relevant advice.

[00:38:47] So I think what it takes to put them on is you just need a place. Like, “Hey, show up at this place at this time, and you’re invited.” And it doesn’t honestly take much more than that.

[00:38:57] Nathan: Did you ever have, like, an imposter syndrome putting together these events of, like, who am I to pull together? Like, I, I think of, um- Oh, my

[00:39:03] Shawn: gosh, yeah

[00:39:04] Nathan: uh.

[00:39:04] Shawn: Every single time

[00:39:06] Nathan: still. Yeah.

[00:39:06] Shawn: I still have it.

[00:39:08] Nathan: So I, I was at, um, Social Media Marketing World- In, I don’t know, probably 2015 or something like

[00:39:15] Shawn: that

[00:39:16] Nathan: Mm-hmm And I remember the founder, which now I’m just gonna space on his name, which is terrible. But, um, getting up there and giving, like, the state of social media.

[00:39:25] Shawn: Mm-hmm.

[00:39:25] Nathan: You know? It was like the, the state of the union, but for social media. Right. And I remember thinking like, “Wait a second. I understand why the president gives the state of the union, ’cause, like, a few hundred million people elected him.” You know? And, like, there was a bunch of votes, there was a whole thing, and you know, that ended up that way, right?

[00:39:40] But, like, you just picked yourself you know, and you organized a conference call together. Uh-huh. And it’s like, yeah, pretty much.

[00:39:47] Shawn: Yeah.

[00:39:47] Nathan: And so y- you know, we always wanna get in… We hear about the masterminds. Uh, oh, Michael Stelzner is the person-

[00:39:53] Shawn: Okay …

[00:39:54] Nathan: who ran Social Media Marketing World. With the masterminds and, and everything else, like, w- I wanna be in the room, I wanna get invited, and the best advice is, like, okay, then create the room.

[00:40:04] Shawn: Mm-hmm.

[00:40:05] Nathan: But that’s like, well, would anyone come? How can I-

[00:40:07] Shawn: Yeah …

[00:40:08] Nathan: who am I to possibly put this together? Like, I, I need someone else to do that. Yeah. But you overcame that. Mm-hmm. You started hosting these Breckenridge masterminds, and you hosted a ton of them. Mm-hmm. But, like, w- what would you say to someone who’s like, “Okay, I wanna host my own.

[00:40:21] You know, what are the few things that I need to do?”

[00:40:24] Shawn: My first thing for someone who’s like, “I think I wanna host my own,” would be you don’t do it for the money. But I think the best reason to do it is not to make money from the mastermind- Yeah … it’s to make relationships.

[00:40:35] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:40:35] Shawn: And then it’s what it unlocks for the rest of your business- Mm

[00:40:38] and the rest of your life when you leave, when you leave the group. And so the very first one that I ever did, I remember talking to a good friend of mine, and I was just bemoaning, uh… It was recently after I’d done, like, the $100,000 launch, and, like, the business had kind of grown, and I was just like, “I don’t have anyone to talk about money with.”

[00:40:55] Nathan: Mm.

[00:40:56] Shawn: Yeah. “I don’t have anyone to talk about, like, hiring and teams.” And I was like, “I just…” Like, I’ve now alienated myself in some ways in, as an entrepreneur, like,

[00:41:04] Nathan: just- I’m laughing because we name all of our studios in, uh, at Kids Studios- Uh-huh … after Taylor Swift songs.

[00:41:10] Shawn: Uh-huh.

[00:41:10] Nathan: And the one right across the hall from where we’re in is called Champagne Problems.

[00:41:14] Shawn: Mm-hmm.

[00:41:15] Nathan: And so you’re like, “Oh, I have all this money and I don’t know how to…” Like, you know, we’re talking through- Yeah … champagne problems. Yeah. Which is a very dismissive way to, you know… Like, it dismisses real problems. Right. Right? It causes stress and anxiety. Yeah. And you’re like, “How do I navigate? I have all this opportunity.”

[00:41:28] Yeah. “How do I navigate it? How do I talk to family about it?” Yeah. “How do I still show up authentically to who I am?” And, and having people to do that with is so, so important.

[00:41:38] Shawn: Yeah.

[00:41:39] Nathan: And often, you know, whoever you went to high school with or go to church with or whatever else- are probably not those people anymore.

[00:41:45] Shawn: Mm-hmm.

[00:41:46] Nathan: Right? Exactly. ‘Cause they’re having very different life experiences.

[00:41:48] Shawn: Yeah.

[00:41:48] Nathan: So yeah, pulling to … I cut you

[00:41:50] Shawn: off. Right. So my friend was like, “What do you wanna do about it?” I’m like, “Well, man, I would love to…” ‘Cause I knew you had your mastermind. Mm-hmm. And that was, like, I had gleaned, like, oh, you can do this.

[00:42:00] You can get some friends that know about business, and you can get together in a location together. Mm-hmm. And you can talk about business for, like, two or three days in a row. Yeah. And just, like, go there and, like, just nerd out on all the business stuff. And I was like, I didn’t know that that was a thing.

[00:42:13] So

[00:42:13] Nathan: I was like- And your costs are, like, a flight. Yeah. Everybody’s splitting an Airbnb.

[00:42:17] Shawn: That’s exactly what we did, yeah. And

[00:42:18] Nathan: some groceries.

[00:42:19] Shawn: That’s exactly what we did. So got some friends together. Like, I had a couple other internet friends that… and owned businesses, and so I reached out to some of them.

[00:42:27] And then I’m like, “Can you invite a friend?”

[00:42:30] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:42:30] Shawn: And so then, like, I asked my three friends. They all invited someone, and then we had, like, nine people. Yeah. And then, like, couple other people heard about it, and once I had, like… ‘Cause, like, James Clear came. Mm-hmm. Uh, Chase Reeves. Yeah. Uh, like, all, all folks on your show.

[00:42:42] Then I was like, I was able to get, like, a couple other people, ’cause I’m like, “Hey, this person’s gonna be there.” They’re like, “Oh, sweet. I’d love to come.” And so we had this first one in, you know, Colorado, and I had massive imposter syndrome. ‘Cause everyone’s, like, you know, has these incredible businesses, and they’re bigger than me, and they have the…

[00:42:58] You s- you know, James is, like, his email list was only, like, 400,000 people at that time. Yeah. Yeah. And he was working on some new book, you know. But I was like, the value I bring is, like, I can put the room together.

[00:43:08] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:43:09] Shawn: I booked the Airbnb. I booked the chef. I told everybody when to show up. I booked the, the van to drive us all to the place.

[00:43:16] All everyone else had to do was show up. And that was a, such a massive pivotal moment- Yeah … for me of, like, pulling it off. Um, and it was the first year of Craft and Commerce, and we… literally, like, half of us flew from Colorado straight to here- … for, like, the first one of that. Uh,

[00:43:31] Nathan: so it was so fun. There’s, there’s something in that of, like, um, I discovered sports, like, well after college.

[00:43:37] Mm-hmm. And I love, you know, soccer and volleyball- Yeah … and all of that. And so I always play on teams that I don’t belong on, and the way that I do it is I’m the one who organizes the team.

[00:43:46] Shawn: Mm-hmm.

[00:43:46] Nathan: So, like, my volleyball team is Uh, more than half the team are division one, uh, college athletes, right? I do not belong on the team.

[00:43:54] Um, but everyone’s like, “Thank you so much for organizing the team.” Yeah. “Making sure it’s all paid,” and all that. And so you can play at a level, and push yourself, and, and be in rooms- Yeah … you don’t belong in-

[00:44:03] Shawn: Yeah …

[00:44:03] Nathan: if you’re just willing to do the grunt work.

[00:44:05] Shawn: Right.

[00:44:06] Nathan: And, and it, it’d be the, the, uh, the glue that pulls it together.

[00:44:09] Shawn: And I think, too, the thing is, um, like, we wanna be… I was talking to a friend about this just recently. Like, we wanna be invited into those rooms.

[00:44:16] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:44:17] Shawn: And it’s just impossible. You won’t be invited into all the rooms. Yeah. And with social media, all, now everyone’s like, “I’m at this event.” And it’s like, you know, I follow, whatever, 100 amazing creators, and they’re all at different events.

[00:44:28] I’m like, “Oh, I wish I could be at all of those.” Right. I wanna be invited. Like, oh, so sad for me. I didn’t get invited to those. And it’s like, for one, like, they weren’t thinking, “Oh, Sean’s on the list. Nope.” “We’re not inviting him.” Truth is, they just didn’t think about me at all. Yeah. Which I, meh, I don’t know if that’s worse or not.

[00:44:44] But the other thing is, like, it would be impossible for me to even go anyways. Mm-hmm. And so it’s like, instead of wishing I could be invited into the room, it’s like, what is the room that I, that I do wanna be in? And what is the, the feel that I want for that room? And what do I want for myself, and what do I want for other people if they were a part of that?

[00:45:01] And then I can just, I can create that. And I can invite myself, and I can invite these other people, and try to make them feel like seen and cared for, and that they’re important, and that they’re valued. And then also, then I have so much more, like, empathy for then, ’cause I’m like, “I can’t invite everybody either.”

[00:45:18] Right. Like, the list of who I want is, you know, hundreds of people. The list of who can actually fit in this Airbnb is 12. Right. And so, like, just physics say, “I’m sorry, you can’t be invited.” Yeah, so it, I think, yeah, just being willing to take that bet, and, like, be the one who organizes it and put it together, um.

[00:45:36] I love it. Yeah.

[00:45:37] Nathan: Okay, so I wanna get into the, kinda the most recent pivot in the business. Yeah. So you’ve been doing, you’ve been hosting the Colorado Mastermind.

[00:45:45] Shawn: Mm-hmm.

[00:45:46] Nathan: And then you also started co- um, hosting Mashup- Mm-hmm … with Mo Bunnell.

[00:45:50] Shawn: Yep.

[00:45:51] Nathan: And that was a, at a different format, where you’re able to bring not just 12 people.

[00:45:55] You could bring, you know, 45- Yep … or, or that sort of thing. Yep. Um, and so the community has a lot of overlap and, um, that’s been a wonderful event that I’ve been to many times. What I’m curious about is how that evolved into Aspen-

[00:46:10] Shawn: Mm-hmm …

[00:46:10] Nathan: and where you’re taking it now.

[00:46:12] Shawn: Yeah. So coming back to Colorado, my broken toe.

[00:46:17] Yeah. I’m thinking about the next 10 years, and I go, “I think I could shut the, I think I could shut down the focus course.” And it’s like, well, what would be next? And at this point, I’d been doing the Breckenridge retreats for almost 10 years. And then, like you said, like, the list of who I wanted to invite to Breckenridge was way longer than the, like, who could fit in the house.

[00:46:37] So my friend Mo, our mutual friend Mo, he lives in Atlanta, and he was like, “Why don’t you invite people to my place, and we’ll do as a bigger event, and we can fit, like, 50?” Mm-hmm. I was like, “That’d be amazing.” So we started doing… It’s called Mashup, and so we’ve started doing these, and even now Mashup is, like, actually, now there’s, like, the wait list for that.

[00:46:53] But, so who knows? Yeah. Champagne problems. Um, I was like, man, if I was gonna shut down the focus course and could do something else, I would want to do more mastermind events- Mm … and retreats, and just, I would want to host these, like, established, successful creators and, like, the community that’s, like, needed for them.

[00:47:14] And, like, the value that I bring is they’re going, “You just tell me where I gotta show up, and then you’re putting together the guest list, and it’s, like, most of my friends, and then new people that I want to be my friends.” They’re like, “That’s… Thank you.” And I love getting to do that. Like, I… You know, when Anna and I will go back at the end of the year and r- review, like, what do we love from the past year, usually, like, the top two or three things for me, it’s, like, my backpacking trip with my brothers that I do every year, whatever anniversary getaway Anna and I went on, and then it’s, like, my Colorado Breckenridge retreat.

[00:47:44] Yeah. It’s, like, one of my favorite things from the whole year. And I was like, man, that would be… I think I’m really good at this. I really enjoy doing it. Could I- shut down my current business to give myself more capacity and more attention to do masterminds even better, and, like, create a, an even better space for it.

[00:48:03] So that’s what I went to with, you know, when we went to Breckenridge, it’s like, “Hey, Dan, I’m gonna shut down the focus course.” And everyone was like, “Yeah, we’ve been waiting for you to say that.” And I was like, “I think I wanna start something new on the mastermind side.” And they’re like, “Yeah, we’ve been waiting for you to say that.”

[00:48:13] It’s like, all right. Well, I’m glad I finally, I’m glad I finally caught up.

[00:48:18] Nathan: Yeah. Also, they could’ve been- Yeah … a little more direct with it.

[00:48:21] Shawn: Right.

[00:48:21] Nathan: I appreciate the friends who will pull you aside and be like, “Hey, uh, a little unsolicited feedback for you.” Yeah, yeah. “I don’t know if you’re open to this, but…”

[00:48:26] Yeah. And then they just

[00:48:27] Shawn: say. Well, we’ve been teasing it out for like- Yeah … a couple of years, and it just, I, again, like massive imposter syndrome for me. Because just by necessity, if it’s gonna be smaller, and if it’s gonna replace this other business that I’ve been running, I’m like, it has to be high ticket.

[00:48:42] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:48:42] Shawn: And it’s like, this is the first time I’m gonna charge, you know, $20,000 for something. Right. And so that feels very… I had a lot of fear. Yeah. Like the same fear, right? Uh, but I just followed the same playbook. I’m like, well, I’ll do it scared. So, uh, I remember driving back from Breckenridge to the Denver Airport as we were wrapping up the mastermind, and basically had gotten, like, quote-unquote, like, permission- Mm

[00:49:04] from all my friends. Like, “You’ve gotta do this thing,” and, like, “Tell us what you need, and, like, we wanna support you.” So just feeling like they were excited about it. And I worked through, like, enough of, like, the general details of, like, okay, I think it’s gonna look like this, these kind of containers. And I wanted it to be…

[00:49:22] I so wanted it to be, like, different or, like, new, because I’m looking out there on the landscape, and there’s a lot of people that run, like, higher-end masterminds. For

[00:49:30] Nathan: sure.

[00:49:31] Shawn: And I’m like, I want mine to be different. And so I, like, sketched out all these things, I’m like, no, it’s just gonna be like all the others.

[00:49:38] We get together, we have some Zoom calls, we have a Slack channel. Like, I’m like, I guess what’s different about it is, like, the unique makeup and, like, the, the culture- Mm … of this group. And that’s what actually will be different about it. It won’t… Like, what’s on paper- The

[00:49:52] Nathan: container’s actually tried and true.

[00:49:53] Shawn: Right. Exactly. Yeah. That’s exactly what it is. And so coming to grips with, oh, I don’t have to reinvent the container.

[00:49:58] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:49:58] Shawn: I just need to, like, invite people to join it- Mm … is actually all that needs to be done. And

[00:50:02] Nathan: be clear on who we invite, what the shared values are.

[00:50:04] Shawn: Exactly.

[00:50:05] Nathan: And all that. Yeah. And that shapes it.

[00:50:06] Shawn: Exactly. And so- So that, so I decided to call it Aspen. And I think just as we think about community, Aspen to me is, like, such a beautiful picture because aspen trees in Colorado, it’s actually one organism. Like, all the trees- Yeah … it’s a grove of aspen trees is just one, and they have this shared root system.

[00:50:26] Mm-hmm. And, like, the way that they share values, the way that they share resources, share with each other and things like that. Um, and it’s like, oh, that’s, that’s what this is all about. It’s actually about, it’s about relationships, it’s about community, it’s about connecting with one another. So I decided, like, we’re gonna do it.

[00:50:41] We’re gonna shut down the Focus course, and I’m gonna start this new thing. It’s called Aspen. So I come home from Colorado, and I sit down with my team, and I was like, “All right,” like, “here’s what we’re gonna do.” And they go, “Well, don’t, don’t shut it down.” Like, “We wanna run it. Let us- Right … let us run it.” And I’m like, “Okay,” like, “you guys can have 2026.

[00:51:00] It’s yours.” And, um, and they’re like, “Let’s…” We’re like, “Let’s just do one last hurrah for the Focus course, and instead of doing it as the four, four-week cohort-” Uh, like what if we just do it as one day? Just a live day. Mm-hmm. Like the whole focus course in one day, and, um, just you can teach it your last time and, like, have fun with it.

[00:51:19] Get some new people to go through it, old people that wanna experience it, whatever. And then, uh, and then we’ll take over the, you know, the current community and all the stuff that’s going on right now. I was like, “That sounds great.” And I think because I was now done with that side of the business, I was, like, willing to, like, kind of hold my hands open to it, um, and, like, give it up.

[00:51:39] I didn’t have any, like, control over- Mm-hmm … how it needed to look.

[00:51:43] Nathan: Yep.

[00:51:44] Shawn: So we ended up, like, we did it for, like, 10 bucks. Like, one day, 10 bucks. Okay. Because, like, it’s a 10-year anniversary, and we’re like, this isn’t about trying to make money. This is about we just want to- Share the message … like, share the message.

[00:51:53] Nathan: Yeah. And i- impact people.

[00:51:54] Shawn: Right. And then what ended up happening is, like, we made an insane amount of money. And- Like,

[00:51:59] Nathan: how much money did it make?

[00:52:00] Shawn: So I don’t have all the numbers off the top of my head. Like, but it made a lot of money. Maybe $750,000 in the last nine months.

[00:52:10] And, um- Yep. … because we’re like, let’s, you know, we’ll have, like, 500 people come. I was like- Right … I, ’cause because I was getting bored in the business, we could see it slowing down, and so I felt- Yeah … like people aren’t interested in this anymore or whatever. And so we recorded some ads, and we’re like, “Hey, I’m gonna teach this one-day live event.

[00:52:30] It’s the 10-year anniversary. We’re just gonna charge 10 bucks for it.”

[00:52:33] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:52:33] Shawn: And then we had, like, some bump sells and some upsells in place, and we, like, started doing ads on Facebook. And our initial budget was 80 bucks a day. And, uh, we were working with our ad guy, and, like, immediately, like, every… Like, within 15 minutes, we were, like, liquidating our ad spend.

[00:52:48] Like, every single purchase was basically liquidating the ad spend.

[00:52:51] Nathan: Because of, so the $10 on the front end, and then a few- It

[00:52:55] Shawn: was converting …

[00:52:56] Nathan: of the bumps

[00:52:56] Shawn: would be enough to- Yeah. The, the ad spend was converting, the ads were converting so well. So we went from $80 a day to $3,200 a day in two weeks. So we scaled- Just steadily ratcheting it up

[00:53:05] we just scaled by

[00:53:05] Nathan: 50.

[00:53:07] Shawn: So we went from, like, like 3,000 a month

[00:53:11] Nathan: to 100,000 a month.

[00:53:11] Shawn: In ad spend. And we were liquidating every 24 hours of ad spend, um, with, like, actually, like, it was close to, at one point, we were getting, like, a 3X return immediately. And then, so we had, like, 3,000 people that went through the first day.

[00:53:23] I’m like, “Crap, like, this is- This is working … this is going bananas.” So we added another day, and we had 3,000 people that joined for that one, then we added another day. We had 3,000 people that joined for that one. Um, and this is, I mean, this is also, like, September, October, November, which in the productivity space, like, that’s the Super Bowl season for us.

[00:53:39] Okay. So everyone’s interested in, like, life design and reinventing- Mm-hmm … themselves at the end of the year, stuff like that. So, like, it was the right offer for the right price at the right time to the right person, and it just… It’s like, oh, this is what product market fit feels like.

[00:53:52] Nathan: Right.

[00:53:52] Shawn: And it was, like, we just couldn’t, we couldn’t sell it fast enough, and the people that were coming in were the right people.

[00:53:58] And so we had, like, we’re doing these Zoom calls, seven-hour long Zoom workshop. We had 2,500 people live on Zoom for seven hours going through this 150-page workbook. Mm-hmm. And, like, the chat was, like, it was just crazy, and it completely changed the trajectory of our business. So our MRR, like, tripled in, like, 60 days.

[00:54:17] Our community size went from, like, 150 people in the community to over 400 people in the community. Um, and but we had everything in place already for it.

[00:54:26] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:54:26] Shawn: Mm-hmm. So it just, like, they just slid right in. We had all the systems ready, and it was just like, holy cow. Like, I’ve always wondered, like, there’s no silver bullet, but this, if there ha- ever has been one for, like, our business, like, this was it.

[00:54:37] Um, and it just unlocked all this stuff. And so then… But my team had already said, “We’re taking over,” so I just handed them-

[00:54:43] Nathan: Mm …

[00:54:44] Shawn: like, “Oh, here’s this, like, much bigger, much more thriving business.” Uh, so they have been running everything for me, and I’ll show up and I’ll do the workshops, and have been teaching those.

[00:54:53] And, um, now we’re doing, like, we do one workshop a month and the focus course in a day thing, and that’s been, it’s been amazing to see- Yeah … like, how, like, being willing to let go of it, then it opened it up.

[00:55:06] Nathan: So that $750,000 in revenue- Mm-hmm … in nine months. Like, what are the other lessons that you take away from that?

[00:55:13] Shawn: I think, uh, this is from our mutual, like, inspiration, Jason Fried. Like, don’t be romantic about how you make your money.

[00:55:20] Nathan: Mm.

[00:55:21] Shawn: And I felt like this was my life’s work, my, my flagship course, and to be like, instead of continuing to raise the price year over year, for us to go, like, way down, like 10 bucks.

[00:55:33] Nathan: Right.

[00:55:33] Um- What were you at before? You were a few hundred?

[00:55:35] Shawn: Yeah, like 500 bucks for the on-demand. 500, yeah. And then we would do it as a four-week cohort, and that was $1,000 for the cohort. But there just wasn’t, like, as much interest. Like, our cohorts, you know- Yeah … we’d have, like, maybe 100 people that would go through a cohort, and so it wasn’t, like, it wasn’t growing anymore.

[00:55:49] And-

[00:55:51] Nathan: Is you inverted it entirely.

[00:55:52] Shawn: Right. We invirt- inverted it entirely. And we’re like, what would it look like for us if this was easy? And how can we also get away with, like, lowering the price without making it feel gimmicky?

[00:56:01] Nathan: Well, the other thing is the conventional wisdom would say, sure, you can do that if you have a large organic audience.

[00:56:06] Shawn: Mm-hmm.

[00:56:07] Nathan: But you could never make ads profitable-

[00:56:09] Shawn: Mm-hmm …

[00:56:09] Nathan: to that $10 offering.

[00:56:11] Shawn: Yeah, yeah.

[00:56:12] Nathan: And you had run ads plenty of times before.

[00:56:14] Shawn: Oh, we were losing money. I mean, such a great way to light your money on fire. And hit your head into a brick wall over and over and over, yeah. We’re trying to figure out ads, ’cause we had a lot of organic traffic and, like, a pretty good sized email list, but no- Like, we could never figure out ads for like- Mm-hmm

[00:56:30] a couple of years. We could just never figure it

[00:56:31] Nathan: out. At that 2 to $500 price point.

[00:56:33] Shawn: We were doing… Well, we were trying, like, lower ticket stuff, like evergreen- Yeah … webinars, like, free funnels into this, and then, like, an upsell. And, like, I mean, we were, you know, like, a good month we’d make back, like, 80% of our ad spend.

[00:56:45] Nathan: Mm.

[00:56:45] Shawn: And then, like, well, at least we have these people on our list, and then we can sell them something later, which they usually would end up buying later, and we’d like, you know, break even after, like, six months. Yeah. But just never, never really, like, took off.

[00:56:56] Nathan: And then you go this… You stop being precious about it, right?

[00:56:58] Yep. Um, and you let go of all these, these aspects of it, invert the price-

[00:57:03] Shawn: Mm-hmm …

[00:57:03] Nathan: totally change the funnel. Yeah. And then all of a sudden you, you know, you go from a 0.8 return on ROAS-

[00:57:09] Shawn: Yeah …

[00:57:09] Nathan: uh, to a, uh, you know, up to 3X.

[00:57:12] Shawn: Yeah.

[00:57:13] Nathan: Um, yeah. That’s, that’s wild.

[00:57:14] Shawn: It was so fun. It was so fun. Like, my team, like… It was just crazy to be like, we’re spending $3,000 a day on Facebook- Mm-hmm

[00:57:21] and we’re bringing in, you know, 5 to $10,000 a day. Like, just… And what’s funny is my business credit card maxes at 50 grand. So, like, every week I’m like, “I gotta make sure I’m paying off the credit off-” Paying it off, yeah … ’cause we’re, like, spending all the, you know,

[00:57:33] Nathan: all this money. In the early days of Kit, we had to do that as well where- Yeah

[00:57:35] I think there was like… It was like a $35,000 credit limit. Yeah. And we’re just like, we’d pay it off four times a mon- month. I remember going to one of our team retreats and making- Mm … sure to pay off the credit card, because, like, the last thing I need is, like- … a new team member who’s joined, has their company credit card, and it, like, gets declined for their coffee at the airport.

[00:57:53] Right, they’re like- Could you imagine how bad that’d be? Yes. Like, make sure to pay off the credit card. And try to convince Amex to give us a higher limit.

[00:57:59] Shawn: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:57:59] Nathan: Um, okay, so this idea of, like, not being romantic-

[00:58:03] Shawn: Yeah …

[00:58:03] Nathan: about how you make money, what does that mean?

[00:58:06] Shawn: I think… Well, it’s, again, it’s removing yourself a little bit from the business and- Yeah

[00:58:10] removing, like, ego, removing some of my pride, and… Because I remember thinking, if we’re gonna charge less, like, well, maybe that’s a failure too, or it looks gimmicky- Oh,

[00:58:20] Nathan: yeah …

[00:58:20] Shawn: or whatever. And- I

[00:58:21] Nathan: thought you said it was worth $500. Now you say it’s worth 10.

[00:58:24] Shawn: Right. Exactly. You

[00:58:24] Nathan: know? Or… Yeah.

[00:58:25] Shawn: And so just being… I think the fact that because I was ready to be done with it- Mm-hmm

[00:58:31] and was willing to just shut it down entirely, then I was like, well, now everything can be back on the table. Like- Mm.

[00:58:37] Nathan: Nothing to lose.

[00:58:37] Shawn: Nothing to lose. Yeah, exactly. And if the goal isn’t to make money, if the goal is actually just to get this in front of people and to get them to experience the process and go through the material, and then we could even be done.

[00:58:50] Like, after that, the relationship could be over. Like, you went through the course, we helped you with your whole life designs thing. You’ve got your one page, and so, like- You know, now best of luck. Like- Right … you know, we’ve, we’ve served you. Um, I’m like, that could be enough. And so just being, then like stepping away from like the fear of like this has to make money to instead actually this just has to like touch people’s lives, I think- Mm-hmm

[00:59:15] that unlocked some stuff as well.

[00:59:16] Nathan: You know, you mentioned Jason Fried earlier. I, i- if there’s probably one person I’ve learned the most from in my business career, it’s him.

[00:59:22] Shawn: Yeah.

[00:59:23] Nathan: And he has this idea that he talks about from learning to play the drums of how you can’t play the drums well if you’re gripping the sticks.

[00:59:30] Shawn: Mm-hmm. If

[00:59:31] Nathan: you’re white-knuckling it, you know, and, you know, it’s just like you gotta loosen up.

[00:59:34] Shawn: Yeah.

[00:59:35] Nathan: You know, and, um, I took a few friends flying on Sunday this week, and, um, you know, when two different people got a chance to like fly the plane as we’re flying over the Sawtooth Mountains- Mm-hmm … which I know you love, um, you know, it’s the same thing.

[00:59:48] Like you ha- like, you know, it’s such a tense experience. You’re like trying to figure out how to fly this plane, and it’s a little bumpy over the mountains and all that. Mm-hmm. And they’re just like death gripping the yoke. And it’s like, no, you gotta loosen up, and then just… And hold it, everything loosely.

[01:00:00] Yeah. And so those drumsticks, you’ve gotta hold them loosely. And it feels like the Focus course, as it, as you lost some level of interest in it, as it was harder to sell out some cohorts, you know, raised the price, it’s like, okay, how do we make this work? Yeah. And then when you finally let go and said, “You know what?

[01:00:16] Anything is fine.”

[01:00:16] Shawn: Yeah. ”

[01:00:17] Nathan: Let’s just be of service.” And then it takes off.

[01:00:19] Shawn: Exactly. Exactly what it is. Yeah, that’s a great analogy. Mm-hmm.

[01:00:23] Nathan: Okay. What does the business look like today? And how do … I, I- Mm … wanna get into that, and then after that, I wanna get, get into how you spend your time.

[01:00:30] Shawn: Yeah. So the Focus Course now, um, I have an incredible team that we just get along really well, and they’re phenomenal.

[01:00:39] Um, and they, so they run… We have a community- Mm-hmm … inside, so that’s kind of the… That’s the model we’ve gone to, is like the course into the community.

[01:00:47] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[01:00:47] Shawn: And so they run all of that. We do, like one live workshop a month, and, um, uh, I teach that. We have another guy, a friend of mine, that teaches it as well, so, like if I get sick, someone else- Yeah

[01:00:59] you know, I’m not the, not the bottleneck. And we’re still running the ads, and they’re still working really well, and, you know, with ads, like you go… they go up and down. For sure. Uh, seasonality. And so-

[01:01:08] Nathan: Try running ads during-

[01:01:09] Shawn: Yeah …

[01:01:10] Nathan: Black Friday or election season. Right. And they don’t work the same way- Yeah

[01:01:13] they did another time. Yeah.

[01:01:14] Shawn: Yeah, exactly.

[01:01:14] Nathan: It’s a constant thing.

[01:01:15] Shawn: Um, and we’re just finding ways to continue to simplify it actually, and like how much can we remove from all of this stuff and make it simple, make it easy. Um, and so we actually have like a newer version of the material that I’m gonna be teaching.

[01:01:27] Actually, well, as we’re recording this, I’m teaching it about a week from now.

[01:01:30] Nathan: Nice.

[01:01:31] Shawn: Um, and then we’re gonna take the summer off, and then we’ll kinda restart again in the fall. But in that business- And then what- … I’m like maybe 10 hours a month. So very, very much removed at this point, yeah. And

[01:01:42] Nathan: then what’s Aspen look like right now?

[01:01:43] Shawn: And Aspen is, so it’s like a newer, it’s a private mastermind that I’m running, and it’s like it was the, the idea and the dream that summer when I was in Breckenridge talking with my friends, thinking about the next 10 years of if I was gonna shut down the Focus Course, then what would I do? It would be this.

[01:02:00] And so it’s just a, it’s a small handful of people. It’s invite only. It’s, uh, it’s extremely curated. It’s for folks that are already established in their business, and it’s very just like it’s… I’m trying to be open-handed. This is our first year. So I tell everyone, like, “This is the beta year.” Um, so I’m like, “Give me space to, like screw up, and I promise, like you’ll also pay the less, the least amount.”

[01:02:20] Yeah. “Because, like if you’re gonna take a chance on me, like I’ll take a chance on you.” And so, like we get on Zoom basically every week. It’s funny, when I initially talked with everyone when they were getting ready to join, I’m like, “How often do you wanna meet, like on Zoom?” They’re like, “Once a month max.”

[01:02:34] Yeah. Like, “I don’t wanna do calls.” Then when we had our first retreat together in January, I was like, “All right. Well, we’ll see y’all in February at our next call.” And like, “No, can we… Like we wanna do every week.” Like, we like each other. Uh, so-

[01:02:46] Nathan: Yeah, before it’s, “I’m busy.”

[01:02:47] Shawn: Yeah. ”

[01:02:48] Nathan: I don’t have time for this,” and it’s like, “Oh, this is something- Yeah

[01:02:49] I’ll make time for it.”

[01:02:50] Shawn: Yeah, exactly. And it’s just, I don’t know, I’m holding it open-handedly. Yeah. And I try to keep programming right now, like to a minimum, and just allow the space to, like figure itself out- Right … with the people that are in it, like what do they need, um, yeah.

[01:03:05] Nathan: You mentioned that you’re spending 10 hours a month on the Focus Course.

[01:03:09] Mm-hmm. I bet everyone listening was expecting that sentence to end at 10 hours a week. Right. And then you’re like, “Nope.”

[01:03:14] Shawn: Yeah.

[01:03:15] Nathan: Change that by four times. Margin is something that you’ve always been very intentional about in your life.

[01:03:19] Shawn: Mm-hmm.

[01:03:21] Nathan: First, l- what are some ways that you build margin in on the business side?

[01:03:25] Shawn: Yeah. Um, when we talk about this on the internet, this always ends up being the thing that most people are like, “Wait.”

[01:03:30] Nathan: You do what?

[01:03:30] Shawn: What? You do what? So, uh, going back to Jason Fried. You and I were in Chicago, like, 10 years ago. Yeah. At, uh, one of those Basecamp 37signals things. They

[01:03:39] Nathan: were hosting a one-day workshop.

[01:03:41] Shawn: Yeah.

[01:03:42] Nathan: Uh, I think with… In their, in their office. It

[01:03:45] Shawn: was in their Chicago office, yeah.

[01:03:46] Nathan: Which has 37 seats in it. Like, and so it was a small, a small group and…

[01:03:50] Shawn: And they talked about how their teams will work in these six-week work cycles, and then they’ll ship, like, a feature for- Mm-hmm … for Basecamp, the software, and then those smaller teams, it’s usually, like, one or two designers, one or two developers, then they’ll, like, take some time off.

[01:04:04] And so I was like, “I love that idea of having a clear idea of what you’re working on, and then when you get to the end of that, like, stop and pause for a minute.” Mm. “And then review what you’ve done, plan for what you wanna do next.” And then we added in this extra week. We call it a sabbatical week. So my company goes in these, we call them eight-week work cycles, where we do six weeks of focused work, one week is a buffer, and then one week is a sabbatical where we shut the whole office down.

[01:04:30] Mm. And we just do this every eight weeks. So we’ve been doing this for, like, basically since 2017 now.

[01:04:34] Nathan: Wow.

[01:04:34] Shawn: And what I love about it is it means there’s always a light at the end of the tunnel. Mm-hmm. So no matter how busy, like, work is right now, I know there’s gonna be, like, a big break coming up.

[01:04:44] Nathan: You do a mastermind and…

[01:04:45] or, like, you host Mashup, and then maybe there’s a mastermind, and then, like, you’re all going to Craft & Commerce. Yeah. And you’re like, “Oh, but there’s a break in another two weeks,” or…

[01:04:51] Shawn: Yeah, exactly. Something like that. So my whole team, which I only have two full-time employees. It’s not like… Mm We don’t have a huge team, but we all take, like, that sabbatical break.

[01:04:59] We’ll shut the whole office down for a week at a time, and they get to go home and just be with their families or hang out or- Mm-hmm … go on trips, do whatever they want. And then for me too, I’m… I like to try to keep my working hours to 20 to 30 hours a week. And so with the Focus Course, you know, I’m about two to three hours a week on that, 10 hours a month or so, and then, uh, about 20 hours a week running Aspen.

[01:05:22] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[01:05:22] Shawn: And a lot of that, um, is mostly just it’s helping facilitate, and so it’s, like, scheduling the calls. It’s checking with everybody. Like, I have a whole, like, people concierge system that I’ve built, so I know what everyone in the group, like, what they’re focusing on, what they’re working on- Mm … what they’re feeling stuck on, so I can help coordinate, like, hot seats for people or, like, navigate conversations, or, like, bring up conversations, um, when we’re getting together and stuff like that.

[01:05:46] Just, you know, hanging out in the chat in the Slack group- Yeah … and stuff like that.

[01:05:49] Nathan: Sounds like a tough gig.

[01:05:51] Shawn: It’s tough, yeah. It’s, it’s really hard.

[01:05:53] Nathan: I’m, I’m teasing you about that. But the… It’s very intentionally designed.

[01:05:57] Shawn: It is. And I think, you know, I’m 45 this year, and- As my business has grown, I think you’re in a, a position of this as well.

[01:06:05] Like, as your business grows and you have those burdens of opportunity that we were talking about earlier, you can end up going in two directions, where your business grows and now your business is a burden. And it’s like I accidentally built myself into a life, into a business that I don’t like, and I have these, you know, like the golden handcuffs of your own business, where it’s like I have to do this stuff to keep it going.

[01:06:30] And I have tried to make decisions as I’ve grown the business of what will lead me towards, like, more breathing room and more freedom and more flexibility in my life. And I would rather trade, like, bigger revenue numbers for a business that I love that also, like, provides me with freedom, because that to me then is the long game.

[01:06:49] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[01:06:49] Shawn: Of I can keep doing the work that I love, um in, like, not a ton of hours, and it- I’m not, like, killing myself to try to make it work. I’m not constantly grinding. It’s like at some point your business needs to, like, no longer… You’re not the one who’s, like, pushing it up the hill.

[01:07:04] Nathan: Right.

[01:07:05] Shawn: And in the early days you gotta push up the hill, and you gotta go through those steps, and you gotta do the work.

[01:07:09] Um, but as it begins to mature and grow, like, hopefully you’ve made choices that the business provides you with the lifestyle that you enjoy, you have that freedom that you’re looking for, or whatever it is that you… Some people wanna hustle all the time. Right. Like, not everyone wants to work 20 hours a week and, like, go backpacking and, and do stuff like that.

[01:07:26] Nathan: I like both worlds. But,

[01:07:27] Shawn: yeah,

[01:07:27] Nathan: exactly. Um, if, if you were speaking to someone who, say, had reached the financial levels that they aspire to- Mm-hmm … right? Maybe it’s $200,000 a year, $500,000 a year, where past them would be like, “Are you kidding me? This is our life right now.”

[01:07:40] Shawn: Yeah. Right.

[01:07:42] Nathan: But they don’t have that margin, and they feel like they’re in the grind and they, they don’t wanna be.

[01:07:47] Like, what are some of the first steps that you’d have them take?

[01:07:50] Shawn: Yeah. So what’s interesting… This is a really great question. What’s interesting about our sabbaticals that we do, the eight weeks, uh, we’re one week’s off, that eighth week we don’t get… It’s not like we’re doing less work. It’s a forcing function of focus for the other six weeks.

[01:08:08] Hmm. So because we have this week we’re taking off and because we’ve been intentional coming into, like, the work cycle for those six weeks we’re working, like, we know what it is that we’re working on, and so there’s clarity there.

[01:08:19] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[01:08:19] Shawn: And when you have clarity, a lot of, like, the other busy work stuff just goes away, and you can get the same amount of work done in less time just by being clear on what you’re working on and by saying no to all the other distractions.

[01:08:33] So for us, the six- that, that eighth week after the sixth is, like, that’s just free time because we were intentional, we were diligent. And so it’s like instead of just the reward for a job well done being more work, it’s like, no, we’re gonna take that time off, and that’s how I’m going to… That’s how I’m gonna choose to spend that reward.

[01:08:50] So for someone who is at that, that level where the money’s doing well for them but they’re feeling, like, very overloaded, is I would schedule a week off.

[01:08:58] Nathan: Hmm.

[01:08:59] Shawn: And/or, like, maybe schedule a day off. And just like, “I’m gonna take that week off,” and you’ll find that by knowing you have time off coming up, you’re just a little bit more intentional.

[01:09:10] You’re a little bit more focused, right? It’s like I had a lot of stuff I had to get done before I flew out here for Boise. It’s like, man, I got so much done on, like, the Friday before I, like, packed up for my trip. And when you have that, like, built into your normal life, it’s like, oh, like, I’m clear and I’m focused, I’m intentional.

[01:09:24] I’m not wasting time. And then I’ve created free time for myself, and I’m going to choose to just keep that time free- Hmm … instead of adding in new work for myself.

[01:09:35] Nathan: Yeah. I mean, you’ve built a beautiful business and a beautiful life, which I appreciate you sharing all those details. And I think what’s been so fun is just watching you Continually reinvent what you’ve done over the years- Mm-hmm.

[01:09:47] Yeah … in a way that’s always true to who you are, and, you know, and with purpose and community and all of that. So- Yeah.

[01:09:52] Shawn: Thank you.

[01:09:53] Nathan: Yeah. Thanks for coming on the show.

[01:09:54] Shawn: Yeah.

[01:09:54] Nathan: If people wanna follow what you’re doing, um, check out the Focus course, any of those things. I mean, they can’t go straight into Aspen or any of those things, right?

[01:10:02] That’s invite only. But if they wanna c- start to, you know, have a first step into your world- Mm-hmm … where should they go?

[01:10:07] Shawn: Uh, Instagram’s the best place to find me. So I’m Sean Blanc on Instagram.

[01:10:11] Nathan: Sounds good.

[01:10:11] Shawn: Yeah.

[01:10:11] Nathan: Sean, thanks so much for coming on.

[01:10:13] Shawn: Thanks, Nathan.

[01:10:13] Nathan: If you enjoyed this episode, go to YouTube and search The Nathan Barry Show, then hit subscribe and make sure to like the video and drop a comment.

[01:10:22] I’d love to hear what some of your favorite parts of the video were, and also just who else you think we should have on the show. Thank you so much for

[01:10:29] listening.

[00:00:00] Sam: In a little under four days, we generated a little over $500,000.

[00:00:04] Nathan: Imagine making half a million dollars in just four days.

[00:00:08] Sam: We made about $198,000 in about five minutes on the webinar itself. That was wild.

[00:00:14] Nathan: This is exactly what Sam Vander Wielen did. She’s an attorney turned entrepreneur who built a legal education business for online business owners.

[00:00:22] Sam: I am proof that courses are not dead, webinars are definitely not dead, and AI isn’t killing me.

[00:00:29] Nathan: In this episode, she breaks down the webinar launch system and the easy email list strategy she runs in between launches to make it all work.

[00:00:36] Sam: One thing I’m finding that’s working really well for me for subject lines is

[00:00:41] Nathan: She walks through exactly how she drives show up rates and what she does in the webinar to convert viewers into buyers. We also get into a little personal touch she does that she says makes a big difference.

[00:00:51] Sam: My welcome sequence that I think people should steal is that in the very first email, I just say

[00:01:02] Nathan: Sam, there’s three things that I hear from creators quite often. That’s that courses are dead, launches are dead, and AI is coming for your business With that context, how’d your last launch do?

[00:01:14] Sam: My last launch went pretty well. I am proof that courses are not dead, webinars are definitely not dead, email marketing’s not dead either, and AI isn’t killing me.

[00:01:24] Nathan: Yeah. Okay, so I wanna dive into all of this. Um, let’s get specifics on, on the numbers. You’ve shared a lot of things. You know, all of your stats are open. That’s why I love reading your newsletter, is that you’re just like, “Here’s exactly how it went.” Yeah. Which that’s the way that I built my audience and shared everything.

[00:01:38] How much revenue did you do on your last product launch?

[00:01:40] Sam: So in a little under four days, we generated a little over $500,000.

[00:01:46] Nathan: Oh, we’re at 130 grand a day. Mm-hmm. I think we could, I think we could make that work.

[00:01:50] Sam: Yeah. And we made about $198,000 in about five minutes on the webinar itself. That was wild.

[00:01:57] Nathan: Okay, so I wanna dive into all the numbers around that.

[00:01:59] But first, what is the product that you’re selling, and what’s your audience?

[00:02:02] Sam: Yeah. So I serve online business owners and creators who wanna get legally protected, and I really only sell two things. I sell contract templates that are downloadable fill-in-the-blank, and then this product called The Ultimate Bundle that essentially pulls together a bunch of the contracts that they need, and then trainings that they need to learn how to start an online business legally.

[00:02:21] And The Ultimate Bundle has been my bestseller for over eight years now, and I run a live webinar that just pitches it at the end, and that’s what I had just hosted in February.

[00:02:31] Nathan: And so what, what’s the price point on both of those?

[00:02:33] Sam: It’s about 2,000 to $2,400, depending on which option. For The Ultimate

[00:02:36] Nathan: Bundle?

[00:02:37] Sam: Yes.

[00:02:37] Nathan: And then if you’re buying individual contracts, that’s, that’s

[00:02:39] Sam: less? They’re about $347 a piece.

[00:02:41] Nathan: Okay.

[00:02:42] Sam: So it adds

[00:02:42] Nathan: up. I love how you say about, and then quote a very specific number.

[00:02:45] Sam: Yes. It depends which contract- Yeah … you want to get. But yeah, about.

[00:02:49] Nathan: Uh, so the other thing that stood out to me about this, it wasn’t just a very successful launch.

[00:02:53] Sam: Mm.

[00:02:54] Nathan: But also that you have been selling these products all over, like, all along too. Like some, some people do like a big open and closed launch. Mm. That’s their one launch a year and all of that. But the, the month before the launch, how much money did you make?

[00:03:06] Sam: I got a little nervous the month before the launch- Yeah

[00:03:08] because we made, like, $175,000 just selling this product, and I was like, “Oh no, people don’t know the sale- Yeah … is coming.”

[00:03:15] Nathan: Oh, okay.

[00:03:15] Sam: So I was worried like, oh, all these people who would’ve bought during the sale aren’t, aren’t going to buy now. So I was really shocked going into the sale. And since the sale, things have not slowed at all.

[00:03:26] So that’s another thing that’s been very unusual for me this year, is typically we see a big dip. Mm. You know, after the sale, take a month or two and think-

[00:03:33] Nathan: Yeah …

[00:03:33] Sam: some of it, we siphoned some of those people. ‘Cause you pulled some of that

[00:03:35] Nathan: revenue forward

[00:03:35] Sam: and all that. Exactly. But we did not. I’ve had a bigger month every month.

[00:03:39] What, what was the, the revenue the month after

[00:03:39] Nathan: the launch?

[00:03:41] Sam: 175 again.

[00:03:43] Nathan: Mm-hmm. Okay. So we’re at 175.

[00:03:45] Sam: Mm-hmm.

[00:03:45] Nathan: 530 in the launch?

[00:03:47] Sam: Yes.

[00:03:47] Nathan: And that’s just in the four-day period. Yeah. So what was the total for the launch month?

[00:03:52] Sam: Oh yeah, so all in it would be a, a well over $600,000 month. It was probably a 650 month. Yeah.

[00:03:58] Nathan: And then do another 175 the month after. Mm-hmm. Yeah. The other thing is it w- it’s not like you waited a really long time. “Oh, it’s been two years since I’ve launched this course.” Mm-mm. How long before this launch was the previous time that you’d done a launch?

[00:04:10] Sam: It was less than three months that I had just run a $438,000 launch.

[00:04:16] Yeah. Same, and I think what’s really important for everybody to know, because everybody’s always like, “Wow, how… Like, what are all these ideas you’re coming…” This is the same webinar. Right. Taught the same way, same slides, same every pitch. Like, I mean, I pro- I hope I get better every time. Yeah. But other than that, same product.

[00:04:31] Nothing had really changed. Although, as you know, I also went to Kit Studios and I re-recorded my product itself- Right … so that I had… Like, I try to look for ways that I can introduce newness without- Yeah … really having to change the product itself.

[00:04:44] Nathan: Right, without having to make a new product or reinvent the whole thing.

[00:04:46] Yeah. But how can we keep it fresh and modern?

[00:04:49] Sam: Yeah, exactly, because with what I do, it doesn’t involve that much. I’ve added new trainings to address things like A- AI or, like, the ADA compliance. But otherwise, yeah, giving people… Even though, like, going to Kit Studios and, and refilming this course, it’s beautiful for me to look at.

[00:05:04] I know it’s gonna be beautiful for them, but then I had to look for a marketing way to, like, how do I spin this- Right … for them? So I thought of a creative strategy when I was actually at Kit Studios of how I was going to package the course differently so that it actually made it a tangible benefit to them.

[00:05:18] Nathan: Okay. So yeah, talk about… So you flew from New York- Mm-hmm … to Kit Studios, Chicago.

[00:05:22] Sam: Yes.

[00:05:23] Nathan: Uh, which we’re introducing a little thing so that that can be a train ride for you to Kit Studios, New York- Yeah. … instead of- It’s gonna

[00:05:29] Sam: be way

[00:05:29] Nathan: easier … instead of a flight. Uh, coming soon. Uh, construction is underway right now

[00:05:34] Sam: Yeah

[00:05:34] Nathan: Um, but talk about, like, how long did you spend at Kit Studios, and what was your recording process and, and all of that?

[00:05:40] Sam: Yeah, so I was there for four days and shot all day every day, and went from beginning to the end of my course. Um, we actually had so much time at the end that I knocked out four or five podcast episodes for my podcast, On Your Terms. And shoot… Like, we shot content while we were there- Mm-hmm … as well. So I was trying to knock it out, ’cause your studios are so beautiful.

[00:06:00] Nathan: And you used- Yeah … a few different studios.

[00:06:02] Sam: Yeah, we tried to switch it up, and I tried to go with the feel of like if I were doing videos that were more just a chat. Like, I have an intro video in the course. We did that more in the studio where you just get to sit. Yep. And then there’s the desk, all the different desk studios.

[00:06:14] And the

[00:06:14] Nathan: teleprompter and-

[00:06:15] Sam: Yes … and

[00:06:15] Nathan: all that.

[00:06:16] Sam: It was so… It’s such plug and play. It’s so easy.

[00:06:18] Nathan: Um, I wanna get into ad strategy and all of that- Yeah … in a little bit, because you did some really unique stuff there, um, recorded in the studio. But before that, let’s go back to the launch itself. So if we can break down…

[00:06:29] First, getting a sense for audience size. Mm-hmm. Right? ‘Cause if you did those… Those are very impressive numbers.

[00:06:34] Sam: Mm-hmm.

[00:06:34] Nathan: But if you had, like, a quarter million subscribers, they’d be a little less impressive.

[00:06:39] Sam: Yeah.

[00:06:39] Nathan: So how many email subscribers do you have on Kit?

[00:06:41] Sam: I was about 50,000 at the time before the launch.

[00:06:44] So as we were ramping up, which I take about a month to ramp before. Mm-hmm. See, I have a very specific teaser strategy that I walk through. And so I ramped for about a month, which meant all of January and the beginning of February was all spent with my newsletter on Kit just telling people- Yeah … this is coming.

[00:06:58] So we were hovering around 50. We had 11,500 people sign up for the webinar itself. Yeah. So that pushed me, and now I’m over 66,000.

[00:07:06] Nathan: Do you know the number of sales that came from, you know, that 50,000 or so- Mm-hmm … that had been on the list for a while versus the 11,000 who joined new?

[00:07:14] Sam: Yes. We did have a lot of people.

[00:07:15] I do see sometimes that it takes about six months for my people to convert, which I know I told you I personally am fine with. I know that that h- that number would not be acceptable to a lot of people. For me, I- I think

[00:07:26] Nathan: your, I think your total

[00:07:27] Sam: revenue numbers-

[00:07:27] Nathan: I’m doing … would be acceptable to a lot of

[00:07:29] Sam: people Yeah, that, that is true.

[00:07:31] I’ve also just always been in the mindset of like, this is the long game. I’m here. Yeah. I have the same product, so I’m not switching to something else. If it doesn’t work for you for another six months, great. Mm-hmm. Doesn’t matter to me. I’ll be here. I honestly think that relaxed confidence in selling has really helped me in the moment because people who come to my webinars tell me like, “I didn’t feel like I had to buy.

[00:07:49] I wanted to.”

[00:07:50] Nathan: Right, ’cause you’re like, “Buy it or

[00:07:51] Sam: don’t.” Yeah, or not.

[00:07:52] Nathan: It’s fine with me. Like…

[00:07:52] Sam: Yeah. Actually, it’s part of my strategy in the webinar itself. I will always say, I, uh, I… First of all, I ask for consent in the beginning to say, “After you’ve attended this live training, this free next hour is going to be very valuable.”

[00:08:05] Um, is it okay with you if at the end of this training if I share with you about my ultimate bundle program? Say yes in the comments. In the comments, we had thousands and thousands of people there live, so everyone was going crazy saying, “Yes, yes, yes.” Yes, of course. And then I would say, “And by the way, that’s if it’s a good fit for you and for me.”

[00:08:20] And I think this is something people don’t do a lot, but I will often tell them, “I don’t want you to buy it if you’re not the right fit for me because I’m, I know I’m gonna have to deal with you on the back-” Right … end, I don’t want to do that. And so it, it’s like almost like now I have to like try out for her.

[00:08:33] Right. You know? It’s not just like an automatic. She doesn’t wanna sell to me. Yeah. It’s different.

[00:08:37] Nathan: Do, do you have the br- uh, the breakdown of- So different … what percentage of, of sales came from-

[00:08:42] Sam: Mm …

[00:08:43] Nathan: the, the longterm list versus the 11,000 new?

[00:08:46] Sam: Yeah, so we think over half the sales of people had already been on the list- On the list

[00:08:50] for a while. Yeah.

[00:08:51] Nathan: Yep.

[00:08:51] Sam: Yeah. I had been nurturing them for a long time.

[00:08:53] Nathan: So about half new, about half… Yes. Yep. Yeah. Mm-hmm. That makes sense. And, you know, many of those people- probably who’ve been on the list for a long time, have already purchased at some point in the past.

[00:09:01] Sam: Yes, exactly. And something I’m seeing that’s new now since my book came out last year, When I Start My Business I’ll Be Happy, I’m now seeing this influx, which everyone disagreed with me at the time because my book is about marketing and online business, not legal stuff, and everyone said, “That’s not gonna drive anything to your business.”

[00:09:17] Yeah. This was the first launch that we systematically saw people saying, “I actually discovered Sam through the book, then joined her newsletter- Mm … and then bought the ultimate bundle.” So that was a really interesting path to, for us to start studying now.

[00:09:30] Nathan: Okay, so about 50/50- Yeah … of where it’s coming from.

[00:09:32] What did you use to drive those 11,000 new signups for the

[00:09:36] Sam: webinar? So I lean hard on my email list itself. Mm. So really, you know, teasing them that this was coming, really driving home… Um, first of all, I chronicled my journey to go to Kit Studios in Chicago- Yeah … to let them know I was refilming the bundle, that I was doing that because a sale was coming, a live training was coming.

[00:09:52] Teasing to the email list that this was coming, so really pushing it to the list. Um, o- otherwise, on social media, it’s primarily Instagram. Mm-hmm. And then my podcast, On Your Terms, um, you know, I flipped it. We have dynamic ads, so I flipped the ads, all the ads for all the episodes.

[00:10:07] Nathan: Promoted your webinar.

[00:10:08] Sam: Promoting… I’ve only ever done that, yeah, it just points to my own product or my own- Right … webinar or the newsletter. Um, so pointed to that, and then my ads strategy.

[00:10:17] Nathan: Yeah, so let’s dive in on the meta ads.

[00:10:19] Sam: Yeah. So I spent… It’s so funny because when I talk about, this is another thing that I think is a misnomer in our industry, that when I talk about this launch, you know, I got some snarky replies from people that were like, “Yeah, I bet you spent $498,000 on ads.”

[00:10:32] And I’m like- Right,

[00:10:33] Nathan: or affiliates

[00:10:33] Sam: or whatever else … actually, yeah, something. Which we don’t really do, by the way. Yeah. So that’s another thing. But yeah, I spent $20,000 on the, uh, s- like, signup ads. Okay. So all the invites to the webinar, and then another about $3,000 on the sales portion of the ad. So we were about 24,000 total on ad spend- Mm

[00:10:50] for a 500-plus thousand dollar return. So I think that, that was good. But I think in terms of, like, the strategy behind ads, I think one mistake people make is that they… I don’t know, it’s almost like people are such good creators and then they go to create ads and they think it’s something completely different.

[00:11:07] Mm-hmm. And they forget that these ads are just showing up on Instagram or Facebook or wherever you’re posting. Right. So as fluid and organic as you can make them, the better. And so I, a long time ago, just started, like from a mindset perspective, just switched my mindset that my ads are just like another social channel, and I just create things, sometimes directly for them, ’cause there’s some, like, twists I have to do with the way I talk, and so I will do that.

[00:11:30] And then yeah, we test it and see how it goes. I also do it in the reverse, that if I create some native content for Instagram, for example, and it goes well, I actually take that and turn it into an ad. And I do not mean boosting. Mm, mm. People will often be like, “Oh, you just boost.” It’s completely different because we can, we have so much more targeting capability.

[00:11:48] Yeah.

[00:11:48] Nathan: So then, in that case, you’re seeing, you posted a reel, it did really well, and so you’re actually downloading that-

[00:11:53] Sam: Yes …

[00:11:54] Nathan: and then uploading it again as an ad. And ’cause you know the organic content performed well.

[00:11:59] Sam: Exactly. And something I’ve been doing for the last few months, which is new to me, is that I am doing ads in real time.

[00:12:06] So when I, I just… I got lucky this time around that there happened to be the TikTok thing had broke that the TikTok terms had changed. Mm. TikTok had gotten sold, so now when people were opening TikTok, it was giving them some warning about the changes in their privacy and the terms of use for them. So this started to become a big thing on social media.

[00:12:24] In the past, I would’ve been like, “We’re mid-promo. I can’t, I’m not gonna do anything now.” Instead, I literally sat on the floor of my office. I recorded a really quick- Mm-hmm … face-to-camera reel. It went crazy on social media. We s- we got hundreds of sign-ups for the live webinar from it.

[00:12:40] Nathan: Yep.

[00:12:40] Sam: And I texted my ads manager, and I was like, “Turn it into an ad.”

[00:12:42] And then it blew up. Yeah.

[00:12:44] Nathan: Yeah. I got, I got some ad, uh, uh- Yeah,

[00:12:46] Sam: sorry. … some

[00:12:47] Nathan: ad footage for you. And that’s gonna- Yeah … that’s gonna work really well.

[00:12:50] Sam: Yeah, yeah.

[00:12:52] Nathan: Something I heard recently from Gary Vee where he was saying, “If you’re running ad creative that is not tested as organic-

[00:12:56] Sam: Mm …

[00:12:57] Nathan: like, what are you doing?”

[00:12:58] Right. You’re just wasting money, you know? Yeah. But if you can have a lot of shots on goal for organic content, and you see, like, “Oh, that hook actually works. This actually works,” right? It’s tested for free.

[00:13:08] Sam: Yeah.

[00:13:08] Nathan: Not for free, ’cause it takes a huge amount of time. Yeah. But no, no out-of-pocket cost.

[00:13:13] Sam: Mm-hmm.

[00:13:13] Nathan: And then you run those ads, then of, of course they’re gonna perform better and, and get a much lower, you know, cost per view or cost per webinar sign-up.

[00:13:20] Sam: Yeah. And my tip is the better you get at doing that, eventually, like, when I’m recording my organic content for Instagram now, I will pause in the video. Uh, I’ll do a call to action, and then I will- Mm … pause in the video. Because a lot of times we don’t like to use ManyChat for ads because it can screw it up.

[00:13:36] Okay. And you can kind of get, I don’t know what the term, maybe shadow banned or something from, from Instagram. So I’ll have to say, like, “Click the link.” So whenever you record, just get in the habit of doing these alternative calls to action so that if that video does well, you already have the cut and can just run with it as an ad.

[00:13:53] Nathan: So that’s where we’re recording the reel.

[00:13:55] Sam: Mm-hmm.

[00:13:56] Nathan: It’s g- you know it’s gonna be chopped up and, and, uh, refined a bit.

[00:13:59] Sam: Yeah.

[00:13:59] Nathan: And then at the end, you’re gonna be say, “Comment ‘webinar’- Mm-hmm … and I’ll send you the link to sign up,” pause. Click the link. Mm-hmm. And, and then one is for the organic reel, and then the other is for the ad

[00:14:10] Sam: is for an ad. And then the kinda like Harvard PhD level of this gets to be, which I do now, is that I also, when I record these, I will be like, I record for my evergreen webinar and for the live at the same time. Oh. So when I do one, I will say like, “I’m holding a free live class on Monday, February 20th,” whatever.

[00:14:28] And then I’ll pause and be like, “I have a free live class called Five Steps to Legally Protect.” And so I’ll do them each- Right … so that I’m not doing this twice. And I also, any time I like say a date, I just do that over again. An

[00:14:39] Nathan: evergreen version of

[00:14:40] Sam: it. So helpful. Because then if you, if you are running ads, you, you very quickly have an asset you can run with.

[00:14:45] Nathan: Right. Yeah. And then you’re not like, “Well, I gotta go get on the plane and fly to Chicago.” Gotta do it again. ‘Cause I gotta be in the same studio Yeah …

[00:14:51] Sam: with the same look. No. I was like, “I’m doing this once.” Yeah. So we’re doing this once, and we keep reusing it, and it’s fine. Right. Yeah, it’s good. Yeah.

[00:14:56] Nathan: Um, I wanna dive in on the launch more in a second, but this like- I almost think creators should do more quarterly content sessions

[00:15:04] Sam: That’s what I do.

[00:15:05] Nathan: Where you just- Mm-hmm … block out a chunk of time, and you’re like, “Look, this week or these four days or whatever is just all about recording, and I’m gonna go somewhere.” Do all the work to set up my home office or my home studio however I want it, or fly to get studios or whatever, and batch a whole bunch of this.

[00:15:20] I’m gonna use the weeks before it for prep. Yep. And then I’m gonna get my phone out of the way and all the distractions. Like, no, this, this week is all about content.

[00:15:27] Sam: It’s so smart. That’s exactly what I do. So I basically, the phases are, like, I research, look at topics, figure out. Mm-hmm. Then I’ll, you know, sketch them out, do some sort of scripting.

[00:15:35] Or at least I’ll know a hook, a call to action. I know, like, a rough skeleton. And then I will go somewhere, and I usually knock it out within a day or two. Yeah. I recommend people just look a couple of months ahead, and look, like, you know, you have some sort of sale, or you have something you wanna promo. I have the rule that the day that the promo ends, the very next day I turn back to newsletter growth.

[00:15:54] So I record, like, a little batch of content. Mm-hmm. On every single batch day, I have a whole set of, like, things that just have a call to action to my newsletter.

[00:16:03] Nathan: Okay.

[00:16:03] Sam: Yeah.

[00:16:04] Nathan: All right, so I mean, I wanna dive into newsletter growth now. Yeah. What are the things that make the biggest difference for you in growing your newsletter?

[00:16:10] Sam: Yeah, so one of the things has been so helpful is, like, with this organic content on social media. I was telling you the other night, like, just going straight to the newsletter itself. Mm-hmm. Just getting into this mindset that my email is good and everybody- Yeah … should get it. And I think that that’s the reason, like, that’s the way to sell it.

[00:16:25] Mm-hmm. I don’t need to necessarily always have a freebie as a buffer. I, I still use them, and they’re still helpful. But that, I think, really accelerated my growth. And then really, like, forecasting on social media like, “Hey, guys, next week I’m talking about this in my newsletter.” Mm-hmm. “In case you don’t know, I’ve got this weekly newsletter called Sam’s Sidebar that 66,000 of your peers get.

[00:16:45] Like, comment ‘Sidebar’ and get it now.” And I start to see a pretty good uptick in signups.

[00:16:50] Nathan: Yeah, so there’s two things about that. One, most people when they say, “Sign up for my newsletter I write every week”

[00:16:55] Sam: Mm. Yeah …

[00:16:56] Nathan: it’s not a compelling call to action. What value do we get? And then honestly, the newsletter’s not that good.

[00:17:01] Sam: Yeah.

[00:17:01] Nathan: And so I mean, you obsess over your newsletter. I

[00:17:04] Sam: do.

[00:17:04] Nathan: Mm-hmm. Right? There’s so many things that, where you’re like, “All right, how do I make something that’s truly great?” Yeah. Where the product is really good. And I see that, you know, Sahil Bloom is the same way. He does lead magnet stuff like that as well.

[00:17:14] Mm-hmm. But it’s the newsletter. Go sign up for The Curiosity Chronicle.

[00:17:16] Sam: Yeah.

[00:17:17] Nathan: And, uh, he can really promote that ’cause he’s really, really proud of it. And then he can talk about how much work he’s putting into it and whatever else. But then the tactic that I really like that you do is you almost get a weekly lead magnet-

[00:17:29] Sam: Mm-hmm

[00:17:29] Nathan: that’s fresh and, uh, current. You could do it the week before. Some people do it, you know, the n- the day before, the night before. Mm. Where they say, “Hey, I just wrote about all of this.” It might have the hook in it or, you know, what they’re thinking about, the problem they’re answering in the newsletter.

[00:17:44] Here’s the, a screenshot or a teaser of it. And say, “It’s going out tomorrow at 10:00 AM. Sign up.”

[00:17:50] Sam: Yeah.

[00:17:51] Nathan: And so that’s basically a lead magnet. Someone’s like, “Oh, I want this,” you know, a very specific thing, and then it’s like, great. And that’s just this week’s newsletter.

[00:17:58] Sam: Yeah. I think there’s two things creators can lean into: exclusivity and urgency.

[00:18:03] Because we really have no urgency with getting people to take action to sign up for our newsletter, unless you tell them, like, “If you don’t sign up now, you’re not getting my thing on Tuesday, and you’ll be-” Right … “missed the window.” This is going and it’s gone. Yeah. And then also being like, “That’s the only place I’m sharing this information.”

[00:18:16] Right. So when I had this launch, for example, I said, “On Tuesday, I’m giving just the people on my email list the financial breakdown of what I spent, how much money, what went into ads, what I think contributed, why webinars aren’t dead, and if you sign up.” And we had a crazy amount of signups, and my book sold out on Amazon.

[00:18:35] Nathan: Yeah, and that’s, like, you’re giving a behind-the-scenes peek into, like, this is what worked. Yeah. And, and people say, like, “Ah, well, I’ll get that any time.” And you’re like, “You can’t.”

[00:18:44] Sam: Yeah, that’s

[00:18:44] Nathan: helpful. Because if you’re not on the list, it, it will be gone. It’s gone. And so it’s built-in, uh, freshness and built-in urgency-

[00:18:53] Sam: Yeah

[00:18:53] Nathan: and a unique call to action. And so people can do that, like- If you write a weekly newsletter, you can do this every single week.

[00:18:59] Sam: Yep.

[00:19:00] Nathan: Tease the content, get the signups. And even if it’s getting 10 or 20 subscribers, like that compounds.

[00:19:06] Sam: It really does, and they refer other people. Mm-hmm. And I, and I see… I can see also people will send people my Instagram story or the post or whatever, so it starts to spread that way.

[00:19:14] Oh, yeah. It gives, now it gives it something shareable, so that’s helpful. I’ve also used it to source, like, voice of customer research- Mm-hmm … of like what do you want to know about this topic, and then that’s the email that I write. So that I, I use in the reverse as well.

[00:19:27] Nathan: Oh, so you’d say like, “Okay, next week I’m writing it-

[00:19:29] Sam: Mm-hmm

[00:19:30] Nathan: um, all about the legal traps that-

[00:19:33] Sam: Mm-hmm …

[00:19:34] Nathan: you know. Or the biggest legal mistakes that creators make.

[00:19:37] Sam: Mm-hmm.

[00:19:37] Nathan: What do you wanna know?

[00:19:38] Sam: Yep.

[00:19:39] Nathan: People are like, “Well, first I wanna know what are the biggest legal tra- Yeah. … legal mistakes that creators make. Yeah. But second, could you answer this specifically? Yeah.

[00:19:44] And you’re like, “Great.” Right? You know.

[00:19:45] Sam: Yeah. Even with the launch, I was like I, “What do you guys wanna know?” Yeah. ‘Cause, like, I can sit here and share impressive stats all day long, but I really wanna know what are you concerned about, which was really eye-opening for me because what they wanted to know about was not what I initially intended to write about.

[00:20:00] What’s an

[00:20:00] Nathan: example of how that was different?

[00:20:02] Sam: Well, they for sure, my audience was more interested in how, for example, somebody could do this without a team. So it was, it was interesting for me even from a mindset perspective that a lot of people thought that this was something I could only do because I have a team.

[00:20:16] Mm-hmm. For one, I think they misunderstand how big, as you know, how big my team is, AKA how little it is. And-

[00:20:21] Nathan: You have what, 25, 30 people running this operation?

[00:20:24] Sam: I have one full-time employee. Yeah. And so I think the people think I’m, like, surrounded by this gigantic thing, so that’s one. And two is what they don’t realize is that Lindsay on my team is implementing the exact launch system that I was doing before she even got there, right?

[00:20:37] Mm-hmm. And so, yes, it’s gotten bigger th- ’cause the audience has gotten bigger, and I’ve gotten better at selling it, but that’s… You know, of course everyone is helping, and they’re so valuable. But it was interesting for me to have some real talk with them to say, “Stop counting yourself out just because you don’t have employees yet.

[00:20:51] You can-

[00:20:52] Nathan: Right …

[00:20:52] Sam: you can still do a killer launch. Stop buying into the stories that you can’t do this because you don’t have anybody yet.”

[00:20:57] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:20:57] Sam: Yeah.

[00:20:58] Nathan: Yeah. That’s great. Okay, so going back into the launch. The, there’s a few other unique things that you did. Uh, I wanna talk about the videos-

[00:21:06] Sam: Mm …

[00:21:06] Nathan: that you did around the launch because you do all these things that are highly scalable.

[00:21:10] Sam: Yeah.

[00:21:10] Nathan: And then here you are doing some things that are totally unscalable.

[00:21:13] Sam: Yeah.

[00:21:14] Nathan: What, what was your process around sending personalized videos?

[00:21:16] Sam: I think you have to balance it out, right? Yeah. Because people are like, it- you become robotic, especially in today’s world, everybody thinks that you’re not really there, you’re not answering your emails.

[00:21:24] Yeah, you’re just AI. Yeah, you’re AI. I’m AI generated right now. Um, and

[00:21:28] Nathan: so

[00:21:28] Sam: the We

[00:21:28] Nathan: don’t have a real guest on

[00:21:28] Sam: this podcast. Yeah. Nathan’s just talking to a couch. Yeah. Um, but I, I found out about this video as platform, which is, you know, owned by the company Typeform, where you can essentially send little videos, um, audio notes, or text messages to people.

[00:21:43] So my first instinct was actually to start using it to crowdsource a voice of customer research. So the way I built it into the funnel was that on Kit, you know, once somebody signs up for the webinar, they immediately get tagged as, uh, registered for the webinar, and then that triggers a sequence that sends them an email saying, “Hey, Nathan, I saw you signed up for my webinar.

[00:22:02] What’s one thing you’re hoping, uh, that I talk about in this class?” Mm. When you click on that, it asks you, “Would you like to send Sam a video, a voice note, or a text?” Regardless of whatever they do, I send them a personalized video back. So I’ve gotten my process down to about two minutes each per person.

[00:22:18] I’ve gotten thousands of them at this point. But I generally am just thanking them. I mean, my, my kind of strategy behind it is to thank them, to give them some personalized attention. Mm-hmm. I always use their first name. I always mention very specifics, anything that they’ve shared with me, and then I’m reminding them when the webinar is.

[00:22:36] This is huge, ’cause I’ve been working really hard on improving show up rates. Yeah. That is a very difficult part of webinars. So I’m r- taking that chance to remind them. I take the chance to say, “Add it to your calendar.” I have a whole little joke schtick thing in there. I’ll be like, “I’ll wait. You can do it right now.

[00:22:50] Like, I’ll just sit here.” And then, um, I’m saying why their question is important and how I’m gonna address it in the webinar. And then I ask them to let me know if they’re coming live or not. Mm. To respond back, and it starts a conversation.

[00:23:02] Nathan: Well, and then you get this, like, micro-commitment where someone’s like- Yeah

[00:23:04] “Yeah, of course, Sam, I’m coming.” And then they’re like, “Oh, well, this ran long and I’m not… Oh, but I told Sam I was coming.”

[00:23:11] Sam: Yes. ”

[00:23:12] Nathan: And I told her that after she’d sent me a personalized video.”

[00:23:14] Sam: Yes. I know, and people… ‘Cause I found in the past that even though we put it 100 times in the email that it was a- Yeah

[00:23:20] hour training or 90-minute training, people would say, “How long do I need to be there?” So in my video, I’d say, like, “If you can go in your calendar and block this off, you know, for this amount of time,” like… And then I started doing this thing where I’ve said to people, like, if my webinar’s in February, for example, I’ll say, like, “Are you committed to February being the month that you finally start this online business?

[00:23:38] Like, I know you probably had- Mm … this idea for a while. You and 10,000 other people have signed up for this, and, like, we’re all doing it. You want… Like, you want in? Let’s do it together.”

[00:23:47] Nathan: And so- For this launch, how many videos did you send?

[00:23:50] Sam: Oh, there were 583 videos. But this is why people always laugh about this, and I’m like, “But this is all I have to do.”

[00:23:58] Right. That’s what I think that people don’t understand. Well, some people understand how easy my business really is, and how I’ve built it out, is that this is essentially my job now, is to do that, create the content, and then show up on the webinar. And so while everybody else on the team is doing an incredible job setting up sequences in Kit, and landing pages, and all of these different things, like, that’s my job.

[00:24:17] Mm-hmm. That’s what I have to do. Yeah. And two minutes for a $2,000 sale is not bad. Yeah.

[00:24:24] Nathan: That’ll work.

[00:24:25] Sam: Yeah, it’s not that bad. That’ll work. Yeah.

[00:24:26] Nathan: There’s some leverage in that. Yeah. Someone might be like, “Well, Sam, you’re trading time for money.” Yeah. And you’re like, “Okay.”

[00:24:31] Sam: Yeah, that’s a good amount of time. I’m willing to trade that amount of time.

[00:24:34] I also like, I wish that more creators in our industry understood, like, especially when people use the language like webinars are dead, and all of this stuff. I’m like, maybe it’s dead the way people used to do it. Right. But I think that th- this is the point, and maybe that’s why, like you were saying, how my business is so automated on the one hand, and then I’m doing something that’s, like, super not scalable.

[00:24:52] Mm-hmm. I think that’s the point, is you have to, like, counterbalance these two things because people are so used to this. They’re so used to being sold in that way, and they’re like, “Oh, I’m gonna go to this training. It’s not gonna be helpful. She’s just gonna pitch me at the end and tell me everything that I wanna know is actually- Mm

[00:25:06] in the paid thing.” And so I really try to overcome a lot of these objections head-on.

[00:25:11] Nathan: Yeah. You know, it makes me think of this extreme focus on automation and scalability- Mm … allows you to do these other things.

[00:25:18] Sam: Yes.

[00:25:18] Nathan: Like, I had Will Guidara on the podcast, and he was talking about, you know, unreasonable hospitality, and you’re spending this money to create these amazing experiences.

[00:25:25] And it sounds like this, like, well, sure, if you just throw money at the problem, then you can do- Mm … all of these crazy things. And he was like, “No, no, no, you have to be militant about 95% of your expenses in the business.” Yeah. Like, every penny you know exactly what’s happening. You know, that sounds like the way you are with automation.

[00:25:40] Sam: Yeah.

[00:25:40] Nathan: And so that you can be completely frivolous, extravagant with the last 5%. Yeah. And you can say, “Okay, we’re gonna spend this on creating an amazing experience,” or, or all that. And so you’re automating so much of it-

[00:25:54] Sam: Mm-hmm …

[00:25:54] Nathan: so that in these one categories you can flip to the other side where someone goes, “Wow, Sam has over 60,000 people on her newsletter.”

[00:26:00] Sam: Mm-hmm. ”

[00:26:01] Nathan: And she sent me a personalized video.” And just people are like, “What?”

[00:26:05] Sam: Yeah.

[00:26:05] Nathan: And you’re like, look, if I set aside a few hours a week or, you know, a chunk of ti- a day b- of my launch-

[00:26:10] Sam: Yeah …

[00:26:11] Nathan: I can do that.

[00:26:11] Sam: Yeah. There was nothing else for me to do. Mm. Because my launches are such, like, well-oiled machines, there is nothing else for me to do.

[00:26:18] My job is done. Right. And so it was, like, a really proud moment when I was responding to all these, realizing, like, I’ve built this thing out in a way that this is the only thing for me to do. I’m also a big believer in surprise and delight along the way. Mm. And, like, little ways that, how do we sprinkle that in, uh, with having the kinds of businesses that we do?

[00:26:35] So there are a couple of different things that I do.

[00:26:37] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:26:37] Sam: Uh, this being one of them. Also, writing handwritten thank you notes to everyone who buys. Wait, really? Uh, yes. Mm-hmm, everyone who bought a ultimate bundle got a handwritten thank you note.

[00:26:45] Nathan: How many people was that?

[00:26:47] Sam: We had 329.

[00:26:49] Nathan: That’s a lot of thank you notes.

[00:26:49] Sam: Mm-hmm. And that’s been, like, a business staple since day one. Right. And so just little things like that. And then I have, like, a whole little loop, like, flywheel built into the thank you note, that at the end of the thank you note I ask them to reach out to me on Instagram, which then gets them to follow me, but I ask them to answer a question.

[00:27:03] So usually I’ll ask them, “What’s a book that you’ve read recently that you love-” Oh … “that you’d recommend?” Um, or, “If you were a pasta noodle shape, what shape would you be?” That’s another one. People like that. And so then it gets them to reach out to you. And it’s so funny to me how many customers never followed us on Instagram.

[00:27:18] Mm-hmm. And now they’re following us, and now I think, well, they’re gonna see my podcast. And then they send the podcast episode to a friend. Yeah. Or they see me sharing about the book, and they share the book with a friend, you know, or something like that.

[00:27:28] Nathan: Okay, so- You’re doing these incredibly unscalable things.

[00:27:30] Sam: Yeah.

[00:27:31] Nathan: So some unscalable things that I do is I send every team member on their work anniversary or their birthday- Mm … a handwritten card.

[00:27:37] Sam: Oh, that’s nice.

[00:27:38] Nathan: So at any point, in, like in my backpack right now in the other room, I have like 10 cards that I need to write- Oh … for the month of April, right?

[00:27:45] Sam: Mm-hmm.

[00:27:46] Nathan: And, you know, when I’m on the flight home today, I’ll write four or five of them.

[00:27:49] Sam: But you’re batching it.

[00:27:50] Nathan: But I’m batching it. You

[00:27:50] Sam: found a way to-

[00:27:51] Nathan: Oh, yeah. Yeah. Of course. Yeah. And I have my team helping me, right? Yeah. Where they’re saying, “Okay, this per-” You know, I’m not remembering, “Oh, shoot. Okay- You’re carrying around

[00:27:58] it’s Chelsea’s work anniversary,” you know, or all of that. Like-

[00:27:59] Sam: Yeah …

[00:28:00] Nathan: it’s like, “Here you go.”

[00:28:01] Sam: That would be a lot. Yeah.

[00:28:02] Nathan: Um, it’s preferable. You could also, you could batch it for the entire year if you wanted. Yes. In this case we just do it, um, a month at a time. And so you’re doing that, where you’re doing this totally unscalable thing.

[00:28:11] But again, you’re like, “Well, they paid $2,000.”

[00:28:14] Sam: Mm-hmm.

[00:28:14] Nathan: Right? And so I wanna create this experience. It’s the sort of thing, no one does that.

[00:28:19] Sam: Yeah. I think, I, this is where I was going before, mentally at least. That I- I remember that, you know, I think that people in this industry lose sight sometimes of who their customers are.

[00:28:28] Mm. And I think that’s why we have a little bit of ourselves to blame for why webinars maybe don’t, quote, unquote, “work” or people don’t think courses work. Right. That, I hear people talk about this a lot, I write about this a lot in my book, about how like people are so focused on what’s in it for them when they build a business.

[00:28:44] Mm. And like how much money they make- Right … and how much this is gonna impact their lifestyle. And I really try to stay in touch as best as I can with what this purchase means about my customer, that this is a big deal to them. And so this is not just to me, like another checkbox, another person I can just get to spend two grand, like look how cool.

[00:29:02] It’s not a game to me. I know it’s a big deal. People write to me often. I am, I am the first purchase. You and I probably are- Right … the first purchases for a lot of people when they’re starting out. And so I remember what it was like, and it’s scary to spend that much money. You don’t know if this thing is gonna work.

[00:29:18] And I am often, I ask people at the beginning of my webinar, “What if we stopped acting like this thing wasn’t gonna work and just started planning for it to work out?” Mm. And, like that is essentially what I need you to do. I need you to shift into this like, “No, I’m headed there. Now I just know I need, I need to get Kit set up, I need to get my legal stuff in place.

[00:29:35] Like, I need to get business insurance.” Right. “And stop acting like this thing isn’t gonna work.” That’s a huge shift that I’m asking people to make.

[00:29:41] Nathan: Mm.

[00:29:41] Sam: And it’s a lot of money. Yeah.

[00:29:44] Nathan: And the fact that you’ve worked in a flywheel around it to drive back not only social media followers, but specifically engagement.

[00:29:51] Sam: Yes.

[00:29:52] Nathan: And then you’re creating a feeling around your brand.

[00:29:54] Sam: Yeah.

[00:29:55] Nathan: And that’s such an important thing.

[00:29:56] Sam: I think it’s why people showed up so big when I wrote a book. Mm-hmm. And, like, this is why people were like, “I’ll do anything, and I’ll tell people about it.” I had people fly in for the book party. Like, people were so kind.

[00:30:07] And I just got a message on Instagram from a woman, like, two days ago who I was talking about how I wanna expand my writing, and I’m doing different, like, personal essays. And she said, “No offense to you, I don’t follow you for the legal stuff anymore. Like, I got what I needed from you.” And nobody wants to hear about it- Right

[00:30:21] once they’ve gotten it done, you know? And so she’s like, “I’ve stuck around for this stuff. And I bought your book.”

[00:30:26] Nathan: I love that she’s like, “No offense- Yeah. “… but I follow you for you.” Yeah. And you’re like, “Not offended.”

[00:30:31] Sam: Yeah, not offended. Thank you. Yeah, no, I get it. But, like, I… That’s been something that’s been, you know, interesting and kind of fun for me from…

[00:30:38] I mean, I’m obsessed with marketing, so, like, it’s interesting for me from a marketing perspective of like, yeah, once you get it done, like, if I went and got a filling at the dentist, I don’t need to get his newsletter about, like, what a filling is and when you need to get it. And, like, I’ve done it already.

[00:30:52] Right. It’s over. So I know that they don’t need to continue to hear about LLCs. How do I keep people here? Mm-hmm. You know, how do I… I wanna just stay top of mind. I want them to refer my newsletter to other people. I want them, if they’re in a coaching group, to be like, “Hey, I know this girl who does legal stuff.”

[00:31:06] Yeah.

[00:31:07] Nathan: Right.

[00:31:07] Sam: Yeah.

[00:31:08] Nathan: What are some other little touch points or unscalable things or surprise and delight moments that you’ve worked into your customer life cycle?

[00:31:14] Sam: I think a lot of people think it’s crazy that I’m still the customer support person in our community. Okay. So I have a VA, Leanne, who’s wonderful, who basically tackles questions like, “Where can I find this file?”

[00:31:26] Or, “This thing’s not downloading.” Mm-hmm. But the legal stuff, I’m still supporting everyone. Um, and with, like, 5,500 members, people think that’s pretty crazy. How

[00:31:33] Nathan: much time in a given week does that take you?

[00:31:35] Sam: I check Monday, Wednesday, Friday, ’cause my promise to them is that they always get a response within 48 hours.

[00:31:39] Okay. So as long as I’m on a Monday, Wednesday, Friday schedule. And I schedule an hour, but it often takes me much less than that. Yeah. So I think that’s sometimes also the truth of it, is that when we, we build these things up in our head, but then when you sit down to do it, it’s not that bad. I’ve also really created the bundle with every single thing that they need, so a lot of times my answers are like, “This is right here.”

[00:31:58] Yeah. “I can help you with that.” I try to do a lot of other surprise and delight things. Like, people respond to my newsletters… Because I write a lot about grief, since I lost my parents. Mm-hmm. Uh, a lot of people write really beautiful things to me, uh, in response to my newsletter, and I will send them a video, um, as well.

[00:32:13] Yeah. So then a lot of people will be really shocked about that. Um, we try to send, like, little gifts to customers when we hear things or things happen, so I’ll ask someone on the team, like, “Can you send them…” I have some people who’ve been in the Ultimate Bundle for eight years. Mm. And so I’ve seen them grow and evolve.

[00:32:27] Um, so I try to do a lot of things like that, too. Now,

[00:32:30] Nathan: you mentioned they’ve been in there for eight years. Yep. Is that a recurring payment of any kind?

[00:32:34] Sam: Nope. That was a mistake on my end. Okay. If, yeah, we can get to the portion that I would do differently. Yeah. I… You know, it’s funny, I named my business Sam Vander Wielen because I also didn’t think it was going anywhere, and when I started this product itself, I was like, “No one’s going to buy this, so-” Mm-hmm.

[00:32:50] “Like, why do I have to worry about this being support for long term?” So I don’t offer, I don’t advertise that they get lifetime support. Mm-hmm. So it’s been something that I have considered more recently as the business has grown so much and it does get more difficult for me, that I’ve thought maybe we start to time limit this.

[00:33:06] Maybe if people continue on with the support, this is more of, like, a membership. Yeah.

[00:33:10] Nathan: Yeah. Where you say, “It can- includes a full year of support”-

[00:33:14] Sam: Yes …

[00:33:14] Nathan: you know, or something like that.

[00:33:15] Sam: Yeah. I think what’s hard for me in my industry is that I never wanna dip into legal advice, since I can’t do that. Mm-hmm.

[00:33:21] And so I don’t want people to think, “Oh, well, I just paid for that, so now I want that.” There are my peers who do that, and, you know, everybody has their different comfort level with risk. Yeah. I am not comfortable with that, and I’m very honest and upfront with them. Um, I guess in the, in a positive way, though, it also allows me to hold my boundaries.

[00:33:37] Mm-hmm. So when someone’s been in it for five years and they’re asking me about, like, a contract for their dog walk- walker’s cousin, and I’m like, “That’s not included in the bundle and that’s not what I do,” and I feel much more confident- Yeah … saying things like that. Yeah.

[00:33:49] Nathan: Yeah, that makes sense. Are there other things that- You know, with hindsight you would do differently in setting up your business?

[00:33:54] Sam: Yeah. Well, I wouldn’t have named it after me. That was stupid. Uh, I didn’t want, I didn’t wanna do that. I wish I would’ve picked a more branded thing. Okay. Uh, I mean, it would have made it sellable, I think, for the first, you know, point, and it was a little too based on me. Mm-hmm. Um, so I never thought about that.

[00:34:08] I never thought anybody would want to hear from me about legal stuff in the first place. So I didn’t think about that. I would’ve put a time limit on it. Uh, there was a phrase that I should’ve legally protected in the very beginning, ironically, um, that I did not, and a person who started using it much, much later than me went and trademarked it.

[00:34:26] Nathan: Mm.

[00:34:27] Sam: Uh, yeah, right after my parents’ loss. And so that was tough, um, but I just kind of pivoted and moved on-

[00:34:33] Nathan: Right …

[00:34:34] Sam: from it. So there were, there were little things like that. I wish I started a podcast earlier.

[00:34:38] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:34:38] Sam: I really like podcasting. Wish I would’ve done that.

[00:34:40] Nathan: What’s been the, the thing with the podcast that’s made you love it so much and then have an impact on the business?

[00:34:45] Sam: It, because it’s affirmed everything I believe about marketing, which is that I don’t need to talk about legal stuff. I talk about essentially what I always call shoulder issues. So I, I have most of my episodes are about email marketing. Uh-huh. And now people come to me for that or ask me about that. I don’t have anything to sell them as of now about email marketing, but I have tons of podcast episodes about it.

[00:35:04] I’ve done email list series all about getting signed up on Kit and starting a thing. Yeah. And- You’re one

[00:35:08] Nathan: of our biggest affiliates.

[00:35:09] Sam: Yes.

[00:35:10] Nathan: Shout out.

[00:35:10] Sam: At,

[00:35:10] Nathan: at the, the event that we were at, um, just this week, a bunch of people were like, “Oh, I’m on Kit because

[00:35:15] Sam: of Sam.” Yeah. And I’m like, “You’re my-” Waiting for my hoodie.

[00:35:17] Yeah, exactly. I want my hoodie. Uh, yeah, but I, I’ve done that, so it gives me a place to point them. And then in those episodes I have commercials running for my own products. Mm-hmm. And we, we have a survey that people automatically get after they purchase the Ultimate Bundle that asks them a series of questions, including where they heard of me from.

[00:35:35] Mm-hmm. And I also ask, “What are all the places that you consumed content from me before you decided to purchase?” So I wanna know how many of them have been reading my newsletter, how long have they been on the newsletter for, about how many issues have they read, um, if they’ve listened to my podcast, about how many episodes.

[00:35:49] And systematically we see people listen to the podcast, so that’s- Mm … really interesting for us.

[00:35:54] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:35:55] Sam: Yeah.

[00:35:55] Nathan: That is interesting.

[00:35:56] Sam: Yeah.

[00:35:56] Nathan: Okay, so going back to the launch. What other elements were really interesting or powerful in the launch that we maybe haven’t covered yet?

[00:36:03] Sam: Yeah. So I think, for one, I switched to doing only one live webinar, which was- Okay

[00:36:08] I was really scared to do, because I used to do three. Yeah. Which I don’t know how I had the energy. I would do three in, in, like, a 24-hour period.

[00:36:15] Nathan: Oh, wow.

[00:36:16] Sam: And I don’t know how I did that. Um- Was

[00:36:18] Nathan: that just for scheduling reasons? You were like, “Oh, I wanna hit different time zones?”

[00:36:21] Sam: Yeah. I was so convinced that people wouldn’t sign up if it wasn’t- Right

[00:36:24] working for them. So I switched into this one live webinar. Like, “This is it. Sign up or don’t.” And then really got good at really pushing the replay. So something I’m doing that I don’t see anybody else doing, uh, that I know of, is, is being okay with the replay as long as you’re really good at getting people to actually watch it.

[00:36:43] Like, obviously, I want people to come live if they can. I offer bonuses live that they can’t get elsewhere. But I push the replay, and one of the ways that we started doing this and saw a lot of success was offering them a podcast replay. So I make it a private podcast replay, like an audio version, and I can’t tell you how many people I hear from that are like, “If you hadn’t offered that, I wouldn’t have been able to watch.”

[00:37:02] They’re new moms or people still working a nine to five or whatever, and they’re like, “I listened to you while I was making dinner, and I still bought the bundle.” Yeah.

[00:37:11] Nathan: So it just made it more accessible? Yeah. ‘Cause they could have watched the, the video- For some

[00:37:16] Sam: reason, Nathan … version instead of the- People don’t know.

[00:37:17] Nathan: But someone was like, “As a podcast-” Mm-hmm … that fits into the I can do this while

[00:37:21] Sam: doing something else.” Well, they listen in the car. They’ll listen while they drive. Yeah. They… Somebody told me that they listened while they walked. Like, they, they do all different things. I don’t know why, because to your point, I, they, they could just do that, right?

[00:37:30] Nathan: Yep.

[00:37:30] Sam: But I try to remove friction as much as- Right … possible, and if that’s it, then that’s it. I… We got thousands of downloads on the replay, so it’s, it’s… clearly, it’s working. As a podcast. As a… Just a podcast. I’m tracking that separately. Right. So it’s working. It’s really interesting. Um, and then I played a lot this time around with the live, uh, like, on-webinar bonuses.

[00:37:50] Mm-hmm. So I, for the first time, gave a little bit of an extra financial incentive if they could purchase on the webinar. Okay. And I also sent everyone who bought on the webinar a copy of my book.

[00:38:00] Nathan: Oh, okay.

[00:38:00] Sam: Yes. That was fun.

[00:38:02] Nathan: Now, people will talk about in the course world who then, you know, authors who write a book version of it- Mm

[00:38:07] will often talk about it cannibalizing-

[00:38:10] Sam: Mm …

[00:38:10] Nathan: um, sales in some, in some cases where the book is very similar to the course. In your case, these are quite different.

[00:38:16] Sam: Extremely different, ’cause my book is only teaching people how to start an online business from a marketing perspective. Mm-hmm. So how to build an email list, how to build out your first funnel, how to create like a flywheel around all of these things.

[00:38:27] Mm-hmm. Everything we’re talking about today. But I very strategically used my product, the ultimate bundle, in the book to… as the example, obviously, of what I built. Right. So that someone who read this book because they wanted to learn about email list marketing, they would now be familiar with this product.

[00:38:41] And I think that is why I’m seeing so many purchases from the book. Mm-hmm. ‘Cause they pick it up for business, but then they learn about the legal. Right. And so then what I did during my webinar this year was I had a physical copy of the book with me, obviously. And at the end of the webinar, I showed it to everybody and I said to them, “Today, I’ve just taught you all the legal steps that you need to take.

[00:38:59] But even if you do that, how are you getting customers? How are you building an email list? How are you gonna find an audience? It’s all right here. I taught you everything I know, everything I’m sharing in this episode, in my book. And I’m gonna send it to you for free- Mm-hmm … if you purchase right now.”

[00:39:12] Mm-hmm. I think that’s why we had, we had the most on webinar signups ever.

[00:39:16] Nathan: How many did you have?

[00:39:17] Sam: We had 128 on the webinar.

[00:39:19] Nathan: At over $2,000 a piece.

[00:39:20] Sam: Yeah. In like five or six minutes. It was crazy. We couldn’t… I just kept seeing it pop up and I couldn’t… Yeah, I couldn’t believe it.

[00:39:28] Nathan: Now, you have an order bump-

[00:39:29] Sam: Yes

[00:39:29] Nathan: in the checkout process. What do you offer, what’s the price point, and how many people take you up on that?

[00:39:34] Sam: So I have a few. Uh, I used to only run one ’cause I always adopted the rule that you had to only have one order bump at checkout, or else- Okay … I start adding multiple and people buy them all. So that works for me.

[00:39:44] Um, but I have a pack of additional templates that aren’t included that are maybe for somebody who’s like a little bit more advanced. Mm-hmm. And so they didn’t necessarily make sense for the beginner entrepreneur, but somebody else. They’re discounted down to $199. That would be like almost $1,000 if they bought them individually.

[00:39:59] Okay. And then there’s also an email template pack that I created. So I basically wrote three email templates for people. So if you need to email a client, for example, who owes you money and they’re late. Mm-hmm. Um, there are actually a lot of legal rules about how you write- Right … that email ’cause you can’t violate Debt Collection Practices Act.

[00:40:15] And so I wrote that email template. I wrote an email template to write kindly to someone who’s copying you, uh, who’s copying your content or mimicking you. Happens

[00:40:24] Nathan: a lot.

[00:40:24] Sam: Happens a lot. And then the third one is the boring one, but it’s the GDPR template. And then I have a little training to teach them how to upload it to Kit, like where to put it- Mm

[00:40:31] and how to use it.

[00:40:33] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:40:33] Sam: Yeah. So those sell pretty much every time. We had like a 60%, uh, order bump conversion for this last-

[00:40:38] Nathan: And so what’s, what… On a 60% conversion, what kind of revenue lift does that come from? Yeah. If you were like, “Oh, never mind, I’m not gonna do order bumps,” like w- yeah, what would it be roughly?

[00:40:46] Sam: It was like $103,000 worth of order bumps this time.

[00:40:51] Nathan: Yeah. So it’s like twen- a 25%

[00:40:53] Sam: lift- Mm,

[00:40:53] Nathan: yeah … on all revenue.

[00:40:54] Sam: Yeah. Yeah. Um- It’s huge

[00:40:57] Nathan: That’s amazing.

[00:40:57] Sam: Yeah. That’s in addition to the 500 that we made. The 500 is just from the ultimate bundle itself I’m sorry, what? In the course sales. Yeah. Yeah. I don’t have an order…

[00:41:07] I don’t have an upsell yet, which was that, that you asked me earlier what my mistakes are. Before I wrote the book, I had thought that essentially what I wrote in the book could have been a upsell. An upsell? Yeah, ’cause I, I could easily crank out an email marketing course- Right … of some sort. I gave that as a bonus.

[00:41:20] It’s a topic

[00:41:21] Nathan: that you’re obsessed with.

[00:41:21] Sam: I am obsessed with it. I’m all right at it, so I, I could throw that in. And that, that’s probably a mistake of something I should have done earlier- Mm-hmm … in terms of just easy and people ask me for it all the time.

[00:41:31] Nathan: Interesting. So a $530,000 launch- Yeah … and then another 100 and some thousand dollars-

[00:41:36] Sam: Hundred

[00:41:36] Nathan: and three, yeah

[00:41:37] in order bumps from these additional products.

[00:41:39] Sam: Yes.

[00:41:40] Nathan: Okay.

[00:41:40] Sam: Yeah.

[00:41:41] Nathan: Now, what you’re selling is templates in courses, and those are things that other creators have experienced that AI is cannibalizing or, you know, if it hasn’t eliminated that now, it’s going to in the future. How has AI affected your business, and what are you doing about it?

[00:41:55] Sam: So I would say about a year ago, I started hearing from prospective customers saying, “Why should I purchase this from you if I can do it on ChatGPT?” Right. Which was honestly a shock to me as a lawyer, like, “Why would you ask this for? How could you trust it?” You know? This is where I think it is so important to understand your customer.

[00:42:12] Mm-hmm. My customer always has a seed of doubt in the back of their mind if they have not done this completely legitimately. Mm-hmm. So before AI, there were friends sending them copies of their contracts. Oh, use,

[00:42:23] Nathan: use this contract that- Yeah … my lawyer made this. Just change a few things and it’s good to go.

[00:42:26] Sam: Yeah. Or, like, go on Nathan’s website and take his privacy policy, ’cause clearly- Right … he has a good one. And then they would sit there and be like, “But wait, what if Nathan took it from somebody else?” Right. “What if Nathan never looked at his privacy policy? What if his is no good? How do we even know Nathan’s is good?”

[00:42:40] So there was always this seed of doubt, which I speak to a lot in my marketing, of like, “You’re never gonna feel confident until you know you’ve taken the right steps and you’ve buttoned up everything and you have- Mm-hmm … all your own stuff.” You also need to be able to customize it and, like, change it- Right

[00:42:53] to make it your own. So knowing my customer, I just started shifting a lot of my marketing to talk even more heavily about that than I already did. But after a while, I kept getting more and more questions about it. Those people would still buy, by the way. I did see them convert by, um, through, through emailing with them.

[00:43:09] But I also then just started to lean into it in my content and start talking about it. And I then filmed a tutorial where I walked through, I gave chat a prompt to create a contract. It was terrible. I pulled the contract apart and I told them all the things that was missing, what, what scenarios would leave them- Right

[00:43:26] totally uncovered. It obviously doesn’t understand our industry, like the specifics of our industry, how we’re creating content, what podcast stuff we’re doing, all of that. So I just blew all of that open, and it was really interesting because the biggest critique of my video, and I got all this hate on the video, was that my prompt was bad.

[00:43:42] They were like, “Well, you didn’t prompt it correctly because you should have told it all the things that needs to be in the contract.” I said, “Do you know what things to put in the contract?” And that pretty much stopped that conversation. Right. Because it was like, that’s the point. You don’t know what you don’t know.

[00:43:55] Right. You don’t know what to tell chat. Unless you’re a lawyer, you don’t know what to tell it of all the provisions that need to be in it, and so you’re always going to be sitting there looking over- at saying, “Is this enough?” Right. And you’re gonna be right where you are right now. And so I just leaned into it in the marketing, and it kind of shut it down.

[00:44:09] I mean, I’m sure it siphoned off something. Right. I don’t know how much bigger this launch would’ve been, but it’s been okay.

[00:44:15] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:44:15] Sam: Yeah,

[00:44:16] Nathan: yeah. That’s interesting. Have you seen anything from other creators of what they’re doing, uh, to combat that, that people could learn from?

[00:44:22] Sam: Yeah, so I mean, I think some people are going almost in the opposite direction, where they’re teaching them how to lean into AI and use it- Right

[00:44:27] for their business to legally protect them. I don’t love that idea, because what I’ve seen from it hasn’t been accurate. Right. Um, even in the law, there are some, like, famous cases that are going on where lawyers have gotten in big trouble because they’ll use chat to generate a, a brief, for example, for, to take to court.

[00:44:43] They’ve submitted these in court, and the citations have been completely made up and fake. Yeah. So that is a really big problem, obviously, and I, I just don’t know that I would trust it. Uh, I also want creators to be empowered enough to know, like, if they have a client come back to them and they’re like, “I don’t understand what this part is.

[00:45:02] Can we change it? Can I delete this thing,” how… So then you’re gonna go back to chat and ask it? Like, you need to be able to have a conversation. And it’s like, ”

[00:45:09] Nathan: Oh,

[00:45:09] Sam: yeah. Of course.” Yeah. ”

[00:45:09] Nathan: Oh, I was totally wrong to include that section.” Yeah, just take

[00:45:11] Sam: it out.

[00:45:11] Nathan: Just take it, yeah.

[00:45:12] Sam: Take it out.

[00:45:12] Nathan: All those listings.

[00:45:13] Sam: Yeah.

[00:45:14] Nathan: The other thing that- People don’t realize, and you can speak to this, is that anything that you say, at least right now, in to your, in your conversations with your AI- Yeah … is discoverable in court.

[00:45:25] Sam: Yes.

[00:45:26] Nathan: And so there are these cases where people have had all these conversations with their attorneys under attorney-client privilege.

[00:45:32] Sam: Yeah.

[00:45:33] Nathan: And then they’ve said, “I don’t know if my attorney’s doing exactly what they should be doing, so let me double check their work, and I’ll upload the entire case- Mm-hmm … and all of our internal files and all that to Claude and ask it.” And it is no longer… Like, there are cases where- It’s not

[00:45:47] Sam: privileged

[00:45:47] Nathan: anymore

[00:45:47] where it’s no longer privileged. Mm-hmm. And so-

[00:45:49] Sam: Yeah …

[00:45:49] Nathan: then the other side has said, “Wow, thank you for that. We, you know, we’re submitting-

[00:45:53] Sam: Yeah …

[00:45:54] Nathan: subpoenas for your Claude conversations,” and it does not go well.

[00:45:58] Sam: No. This is a big problem in our industry, actually, because people are uploading clients’ information to it.

[00:46:03] Mm-hmm. And so a lot of people have been asking me lately if, uh, if there are any protections of things they should be putting in their contracts to say, “I use AI to generate coaching session notes or to do this or that.” Right. “So now when Nathan’s telling me about whatever, about his health, now this is going into here, and we don’t control it anymore, so what about that?”

[00:46:20] Mm-hmm. So there’s, I, there’s a lot of skepticism obviously, you know, on, on that side of it. Um, but I do think this is where it comes down to, like, leaning into your customer. My customer is the person who does things right. They cross every T twice. Right. And so they’re d- they’re s- always still gonna be looking at that being like, “I’m not sure if that’s right.

[00:46:37] I’m not sure if it’s enough.” And if you don’t… If you’re in an industry where your customer doesn’t know what they don’t know, I think that’s really help- Mm-hmm … that’s where you can really combat AI to say, “You’re the one that has to prompt it. It doesn’t know what you’re looking for.” Right. You don’t know what to tell it that’s important about your situation, how you’re working with people, all the issues that come up.

[00:46:55] And then obviously leaning into the benefits of, like, my product in particular, saying, “You get customer service, and you get all this support, and you get the trainings.” Mm-hmm. And, like, that stuff is not… You get it from somebody who’s built a business like the one that you’re trying to build. I mean, my clients- Right

[00:47:08] often want to become this, right, and this have, have this kind of business. They wanna sell digital products and build a big email list and all that, so I get it.

[00:47:16] Nathan: The thing that stands out to me about that is that you know your customer so well, and other people might attract and want a customer that’s like, “Look, we’re just looking for the, the fastest path to do this.”

[00:47:25] And someone else might make a whole course about, “Here’s how to use Claude to replace your lawyer, and here’s the exact prompts you have to do,” whatever. And it’s like- Great for them.

[00:47:33] Sam: Mm-hmm.

[00:47:33] Nathan: Their customer is for the move fast, do it cheap- Mm … you know, and I’m willing to take on more risk. And they, in their marketing, might speak exactly to that customer.

[00:47:43] You know, save hundreds of thousands of dollars on legal fees or whatever, and like all that. But you’re saying, and I hear you in the way you speak to, to the customer, is like, look, you’re the person that makes sure that everything is buttoned up.

[00:47:54] Sam: Yeah.

[00:47:55] Nathan: And so you don’t have to answer for everyone. You can carve off, like this is the type of person, even down to basically the personality that we serve.

[00:48:02] Yeah.

[00:48:02] Sam: I think people get way too caught up in trying to convince people. Mm. Like, so you… It’s like an ego thing of like now I need to convince you why I’m irreplaceable, so I’ll c- start creating all this content about how stupid AI is. Like, my customers are pr- probably pretty skeptical. Right. Uh, for those of you, and they’re using it for other things, you know, for productivity and systematizing things.

[00:48:20] Mm. And it’s great. I think it’s also telling them, like I added things to the bundle when I reshot it at Kit about where I do think AI would be helpful for them in certain cases. So if they’re doing research on a certain to- topic that I’m talking about, I’ll say, “This is what I would prompt it,” and I actually wrote the prompts for them in- Yeah

[00:48:36] the little description boxes under the video so that they could use it. So then I’m not saying to them, like it’s, it’s banished. It’s just like I wouldn’t use it to generate your most important… I mean, would you have bet on it for when you were scaling Kit as a, as a contract? Yeah. It would’ve been terrifying, right?

[00:48:50] And so it’s not… It’s, yeah, I, I don’t know if it’ll ever be there, but it’s not, it’s not there yet.

[00:48:54] Nathan: Okay. So you’re running a very successful business now. And I’m… Everyone always talks about the total revenue they’re making- Mm … or the profit or all that. I don’t think enough creators talk about what they’re actually doing with that money.

[00:49:06] Sam: Yeah.

[00:49:07] Nathan: Uh, so first, I wanna ask about a fun splurge, something that you spent money on that you’re like, “This is just awesome, and I did it guilt-free.” Ah. “Or I forced myself to do it because, like, I don’t wanna just stockpile every bit of this money.”

[00:49:18] Sam: Yeah. Well, when I started my business, I made a list of, like, what would be the bucket list items that would- Yeah

[00:49:24] make sense for me, and, uh, one was an electric car. That was really important to me, and I just wanted to buy it and not have to worry about it. I want it to be really nice and have heated seats and the glass roof and all the things. Um, ’cause I actually really like cars and so- Yeah … uh, that was important to me, so did that.

[00:49:40] Uh, I actually just bought my second… I, I got rid of the first one and bought a second one. And, um, the other one was to buy a big chunk o’ land. Mm-hmm. And if it had a house on it, great, like, even if it was something that was not in the best condition. That was really important to me. But I actually just straight up for cash bought a, a cabin in Vermont in, uh, August of last year.

[00:50:00] Nathan: Oh, that’s amazing.

[00:50:00] Sam: Yeah.

[00:50:01] Nathan: And is it somewhere you’ve spent a lot of time or, like, gathered people at?

[00:50:04] Sam: Yeah. Ryan, my husband, and I go to Vermont a lot, and we like it there, but also Vermont is a very fast-growing real estate market. Yeah. And so during COVID, a lot of people moved there, but as people are looking for land, as they’re looking for, uh, not as hot of places to live- Yes

[00:50:18] they are going to Vermont. And so Ver- and Vermont’s just awesome. It’s a great place to live, and you have, like, this great seasonality to it. And so, I don’t know, something about having a giant chunk of land sounded really… I know for you too, it sounded really fun for me to say, like, it’s, it feels like a little insulation and- Yeah

[00:50:34] a little investment. It gives me wiggle room to, I don’t know, grow something, build a tiny house on it, you know, do, do something that I want to do. So yeah, that was pretty cool to just go there and say, like, “I’m just buying this outright,” and they kept asking me about mortgage. I was like, “No, I, I got it.”

[00:50:48] Nope. Not doing,

[00:50:49] Nathan: not doing that. Got it. Mortgage

[00:50:50] Sam: rates

[00:50:50] Nathan: are

[00:50:51] Sam: terrible.

[00:50:52] Nathan: Yeah, I love that. Yeah. I feel like we all have a little bit of a wanting to play Monopoly tendency. Yeah. Like, I acquired a, I acquired a property. I’ve got Park Place.

[00:51:00] Sam: Yeah, I did use to play Monopoly a lot. That’s probably it.

[00:51:02] Nathan: Yeah. Okay, and then on the, the practical side- Yeah

[00:51:06] let’s say that this business doesn’t last forever, or- Yeah … things change in the industry or whatever else, we might scale up to bigger things, we might move away from it. What are you doing on the investing side, and how do you think about how much to invest versus to spend on lifestyle or other things?

[00:51:18] Sam: Yeah, I mean, I max out my investments, so most of my money is going there, and I’m- Yeah. I have a 401since I have my one full-time employee, so I, I max out there, um, and all the rest of my retirement accounts. Um, I keep probably way too much in the business operating account, uh- Yeah … than I need to, but what I did start doing was moving the excess over to a high-interest savings account, and I’m making crazy money, uh, every single month on this interest- Yep

[00:51:44] which I just think is fun and feels free in a way. And so, um, I’ve been doing that just so that it gives me wiggle room if I wanted to invest in something back in the business, I can move it, move it back. Um, but I also purchased a house in New York and paid for that outright as well. Yeah. Uh, and that’s not nearly as cheap as buying a house in Vermont.

[00:52:00] As in Vermont. Yes. Real estate market is not the same. Um, so I also bought that, and that has appreciated like crazy. Uh- Mm-hmm … s- I bought a waterfront house, so that’s, that’s very hard to come by, and yeah. Yeah. Not going anywhere. Yeah.

[00:52:13] Nathan: Are there any financial mistakes or thing… Like, if, if there was a creator in your shoes- Mm

[00:52:17] who maybe went from making a few hundred thousand dollars a year and is now at, like, a million a year- Mm … or more with really good margins and all of that, and like- Okay. Is there any advice that you would give them?

[00:52:28] Sam: Yeah, I sat on it a little too long in the beginning. Like, I- I call it my war chest in the book of how, like, I thought of it, like I needed to build it up forever.

[00:52:36] But then I was sitting on it and, like, for example, Facebook ads I wanted to invest in maybe 2018. I had enough capital to be like, “Okay, now I can… My funnel’s working. I can turn this from a drip to a really heavy flow of a faucet.” And I was scared to spend the money. And if I had started earlier, I think that would’ve been really good.

[00:52:53] Once I did- Right … it was good. The second mistake I’ve made, uh, even sometimes still I have to remind myself, is, like, my Facebook ads work so well, and they will ask me, like, “Do you wanna scale ad spend?” I’m like, “No, I’ll hold.” And they’re like, “Why are you holding? Why?” And I remember I was talking to Pat Flynn about this at Craft and Commerce last year.

[00:53:09] He’s just like, “Why don’t you just keep, like, keep upping it, right?” And I’m like, “I don’t know why.” H- honestly, I don’t know why. Hm. It’s just a mental thing that I’m like, “This is good,” and I guess I’m worried that I’ll break it if it goes higher, and maybe it won’t work as well. I don’t, I don’t know the thought process, but that’s definitely a mistake.

[00:53:24] Yeah.

[00:53:24] Nathan: Yeah. That makes sense. Find the things that are working well- Yes … and keep investing in them.

[00:53:28] Sam: Yes,

[00:53:29] Nathan: absolutely. And if it works great at 10 grand a month, then, like, let’s try 15, let’s try 20, and

[00:53:33] Sam: keep ramping up. Yes, exactly. And I’ve probably also made the classic mistakes of entrepreneurs of, like, uh, I hired one person too quickly and then fired too slowly.

[00:53:41] Uh- Yeah … so that classic. Got that one off my bucket list. Um, and-

[00:53:46] Nathan: The trick is to just make that mistake once.

[00:53:47] Sam: Yes, exactly. I’ve

[00:53:48] Nathan: made it probably a dozen times. Yeah.

[00:53:50] Sam: So far only one. I have a little board. Um, but h- honestly, if I could tell somebody who was earlier in my, and wanted to be in my shoes, was that, like, investing in Lindsay, my, my full-time employee- Mm

[00:54:00] like, I pay her well and I take care of her the best I can. And a lot of people have said to me, like, “You know you can get somebody who could do this so much cheaper,” or they use people that they find online here, there, and elsewhere. And I have taken the position since day one that I would rather have fewer people who I pay really well- Yes

[00:54:17] who are really good at their jobs- Right … and then are really, really dedicated and more like team members, and I feel like we’re in it together. Mm-hmm. And I hope people can see the forest for the trees for that and- Yeah … and invest in people.

[00:54:28] Nathan: Okay, last topic.

[00:54:29] Sam: Yeah.

[00:54:29] Nathan: Something that you’re fairly passionate about is email marketing.

[00:54:32] Sam: Yes, very.

[00:54:33] Nathan: Uh, so you consume a lot of newsletters- Yeah … from other people. You see what’s going on in the industry. You spend so much time writing great emails and obsessed about that. What are the things that you see from other creators that just drive you crazy, or you’re like, “Oh, man, I would lo- if, if I ran your newsletter, I would change this, I would fix that”?

[00:54:51] Sam: There’s somebody whose newsletter I loved, and just recently they decided to switch it up to going to Q&A style only. Mm. So the entire email now is answering someone’s question. It’s kind of like a, a Dear Abby type situation- Okay … where people, like, submit questions and do this. The thing that drives me crazy about that as a creator, and I’ve counseled other people against doing that, as the, as like the sole format of an email- Yeah

[00:55:10] is that it knocks out anybody who that question doesn’t apply to. Mm-hmm. So I literally went from reading this person’s email religiously to 99% of the questions she’s answering now do not apply to me at all, and I’m not interested in them. Right. So I instantly count myself out. I don’t open the email.

[00:55:25] The other day, I accidentally opened the email even though the subject had nothing to do with me, and I noticed that she has other sections of this email that are about things that I would find interesting and that point to other pieces of her content. Mm-hmm. I had no idea because the subject line is about it, the bulk of the email’s about it.

[00:55:40] Right. I just stopped reading her newsletter. So that was, that was one thing. I mean, we had a discussion last night about resends after- Yeah … to unopens. I felt pretty passionately about not doing that.

[00:55:49] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:55:50] Sam: Personally- I walked into

[00:55:50] Nathan: a conversation-

[00:55:50] Sam: I

[00:55:51] Nathan: gave you a

[00:55:51] Sam: laugh … of like what?

[00:55:53] Nathan: Yeah. This is a passionate conversation-

[00:55:54] Sam: Yeah

[00:55:54] about whether you

[00:55:54] Nathan: should resend to unopens.

[00:55:55] Sam: She was shocked for me to say, like, “No, I would never do that.” I only, I only ever resend to unopens on Close Cart for a sale. Mm-hmm. And even then, sometimes I will resend to unopens who are also tagged in Kit as having clicked on the sales page or the checkout page.

[00:56:09] Mm-hmm. So I’m limiting the audience of, like, I know this person’s pretty interested. Um, so that’s something I’m doing often. I mean, people’s subject lines always need help. Um, they’re just not interesting enough, uh, or they give away the farm in the subject line itself. There’s no curiosity. There’s no loop to get me to open.

[00:56:26] One thing I’m finding that’s working really well for me for subject lines is using the subscriber’s name in the subject line and making them the hero of the subject line, and it’s really getting people to open it.

[00:56:36] Nathan: What would that look like?

[00:56:37] Sam: Nathan’s email list just grew by 30,000 subscribers.

[00:56:41] Nathan: Did? That sounds great.

[00:56:42] Sam: Yeah. You’re like, “Wait, what?” And then you click on it. Or like, “Nathan just started his first podcast.” Or like, um, I- mine yesterday, uh, for my Kit newsletter was, “Nathan just made my book a bestseller.” And the point w- of the email was about how it was the one-year anniversary of my book coming out, and that it’s not a legal book.

[00:56:57] And it was like dispelling- Right … this myth, asking people to buy it. But we had a crazy

[00:57:00] Nathan: opening. Are all of those the first name at the beginning, or you have versions that you might- Not

[00:57:05] Sam: always …

[00:57:06] Nathan: put the name somewhere in the middle of it?

[00:57:07] Sam: Yeah, I could put it towards the end. When I put it at the end, I’ll play with using a question mark.

[00:57:12] Like, “Nathan just added 30,000 subscribers?” Or, “30,000 subscribers sounds good to Nathan?” Like, you could- Yeah … put something like that. Yeah. Okay. So sometimes I’ll use the question mark to give the upward inflection. Mm. Yeah. Okay. But making them the hero of the subject line, a- again, really having to know your customer of like, what do they really want.

[00:57:28] Like, uh, “Nathan just got booked with clients,” like has a full roster of clients or something like that. I’ll do that a lot. It works really, really

[00:57:35] Nathan: well. Or you’re just imagining yourself as the reader in that-

[00:57:37] Sam: Yes … in

[00:57:37] Nathan: that state.

[00:57:38] Sam: Well, and so I know what I’m writing about. It w- I- I always do this last. I write my subject line last.

[00:57:43] I don’t know if everyone does that. But I write it last, and so I think about, what’s the point of what I’m teaching in this newsletter? What would they, what’s the outcome that they would really want? Well, Nathan would want 30,000 new subscribers. He would. That, he would. And that’s an email that, that’s an email about newsletter growth, right?

[00:57:57] So it’s like, that’s the point is like, if that person sees that subject line, is interested in it, they’re also going to be interested in my, uh, newsletter itself. And then obviously, always, always edit the preview text. I like playing with that, too. Yeah.

[00:58:10] Nathan: What’s something that you would put in the preview text, or how would you play with that?

[00:58:12] Sam: Yeah. So s- usually, it, I’ll put something about like a sneak peek of what’s inside. So I’ll be like, “Open me to learn h- my easy email list strategy to add 30K to your email list this year,” or something like that. Mm. Yeah. And so I also try to use- I’d click that. Yeah. Maybe something like that. That’s off the top of my head.

[00:58:28] But I would, I usually will say something like my easy email list strategy that I write to people about a lot, which is like going straight to the email, the value of the email, instead of the freebie. That’s a little something that’s like an open curiosity loop of like, well, what is that strategy? Mm. Uh, a lot of times I say, “Steal my secrets.”

[00:58:42] That works really well for me. I’ll say like, “Steal, steal my email list strategy inside,” um, or like, “Steal my way of my 500K launch inside.” Like something like that, that works really well. Using an emotional word.

[00:58:53] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:58:53] Sam: Yeah.

[00:58:54] Nathan: Okay.

[00:58:54] Sam: Yeah.

[00:58:55] Nathan: Let’s go really specific.

[00:58:56] Sam: Mm.

[00:58:57] Nathan: Since you use Kit and have all kinds of advanced stuff set up- What’s a tip that you would have for someone on, like, for their kit newsletter automations?

[00:59:05] Sam: Yeah. So I think that having something set up for, uh, any sort of segmentation in the front end that, you know, we started segmenting of, like, why are you here and kind of where are you at, I mean, depending on- Mm … what you do or write your email newsletter about. But for me, I wanted to know, like, where are they at in business.

[00:59:21] Are they brand new? Are they coming to me for legal stuff? Are they here for the marketing things? Mm. So doing that up front was not only helpful for segmentation and serving purposes, it also got people to engage. Um, so that’s really good. Another thing I’ve built into my email list, um, or my kit sequence, my welcome sequence, that I think people should steal, is that in the very first email I just say something cutesy about, like, I won’t be able to sleep tonight until you tell me that you got it, so just hit reply and say…

[00:59:46] All you have to say is, “Got it.” And it’s really funny, ’cause every day I wake up and then my whole inbox is, like, got it, got it, got it, got it, got… It’s just, like, hundreds of got it. So that is a really great… Another way, by the way, that you’ll not only boost the deliverability and getting- Right … people involved, but now it opens a conversation because I’ll always respond back.

[01:00:02] Nathan: What do you respond with?

[01:00:03] Sam: Oh, we’ll just say, like, “Thanks so much for being here. Is there anything that we can help you find?” Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Like, are you looking… W- were you looking for, like, a certain podcast episode? Um, do you know about Sam’s book? And yeah, some people will just, like, engage. Uh, oftentimes people will write got it and then they’ll write something f- that they think it was really funny, like- Yeah

[01:00:18] I hope you got sleep tonight, and like, I know this is just an automation, but yeah. Yeah.

[01:00:23] Nathan: Yeah. That’s awesome.

[01:00:24] Sam: Yeah.

[01:00:24] Nathan: This has been fantastic. I hope. Congratulations on a wildly successful launch.

[01:00:28] Sam: Thank

[01:00:29] Nathan: you. Doing many of these launches actually is, uh, it’s been fun to have a front row seat to you building your business.

[01:00:34] If people want to check out your work, subscribe to the newsletter-

[01:00:37] Sam: Yeah …

[01:00:38] Nathan: you know, study, study your work and see what, how you write your newsletters and everything else, where should they go?

[01:00:43] Sam: You should head to samvanderwielen.com/newsletter to get my weekly newsletter, Sam’s Sidebar, that 66,000 of your peers already get, uh, and to learn how to market their online businesses, and then grab a copy of my book When I Start My Business, I’ll Be Happy.

[01:00:56] And like Nathan, I have a podcast kind of on your terms where I talk about the same stuff.

[01:01:00] Nathan: I love it. Thanks so much for coming on.

[01:01:01] Sam: Thanks for having me again.

[01:01:03] Nathan: If you enjoyed this episode, go to YouTube and search The Nathan Barry Show, then hit subscribe, and make sure to like the video and drop a comment.

[01:01:12] I’d love to hear what some of your favorite parts of the video were, and also just who else you think we should have on the show. Thank you so much for

[01:01:18] listening.

[00:00:00] Layla: Adding services into the mix, I was able to triple our monthly income

[00:00:04] Nathan: Layla built ProcessDriven into 150,000 subscriber YouTube channel teaching systems to small business owners.

[00:00:11] Layla: Here is the solution for how to systemize your business, 5 to 50 people making 5 to 50 million.

[00:00:15] Nathan: This episode is about what she’s seeing that many creators are missing right now.

[00:00:20] Layla: We just added that human touch into it, and that is the piece that has changed everything.

[00:00:24] Nathan: What Layla found after doing hundreds of sales calls-

[00:00:27] Layla: One of the biggest unlocks in terms of conversion rates on sales calls was quoting the number as an opening …

[00:00:32] Nathan: absolutely insane.

[00:00:33] Layla: Close more than 50%, you’re doing something wrong, not good.

[00:00:36] Nathan: What do you want your close rate to

[00:00:38] Layla: be? I want it to be like 20%. At this point, if someone’s-

[00:00:40] Nathan: You just said something that is very important

[00:00:42] Layla: That’s what I’ll say usually at the end, “Don’t work with us. Here’s why.” The

[00:00:45] Nathan: offer model

[00:00:46] Layla: you’ve

[00:00:46] Nathan: been told to build might be the very thing holding your business back.

[00:00:50] Layla: So afraid of services for the reason so many are. Felt like a step backwards.

[00:00:54] Nathan: We’re like more than doubling revenue-

[00:00:56] Layla: Yeah …

[00:00:56] Nathan: with this one change.

[00:00:58] Layla: Yeah.

[00:00:58] Nathan: You know, this one weird trick that maybe all course creators should consider. If you have a course or you’re about to build one, watch this entire episode before you make another

[00:01:06] Layla: move.

[00:01:06] The reason I realized that it would work is because I-

[00:01:10] Nathan: Oh, I mean, that’s such an important point

[00:01:16] So, Layla, you hit a revenue ceiling-

[00:01:18] Layla: Yep …

[00:01:19] Nathan: with courses around $600,000 or $700,000 a year, is that right?

[00:01:22] Layla: Yep, the infamous number.

[00:01:23] Nathan: A lot of people hit that.

[00:01:24] Layla: Mm-hmm.

[00:01:25] Nathan: But then you broke through it when you moved from products over to services.

[00:01:29] Layla: Yeah. Which

[00:01:29] Nathan: is a- Not

[00:01:30] Layla: so infamous.

[00:01:30] Nathan: Not so infamous. Not very many people make that switch.

[00:01:33] Layla: Yeah. Well, they do, but they go the opposite direction. Yes, they do. Like, that’s the big thing, like passive income, get out of services, yeah.

[00:01:41] Nathan: So what did it look like to break through that ceiling, and what revenue number, uh, you know, did you hit?

[00:01:45] Layla: Yeah, so it’s a rolling target right now, but essentially, um, what switched in terms of how it worked was I just went to adding services into the mix, and I was able to essentially triple our monthly income, which I’m, I’m hoping now will annualize out.

[00:02:01] Yep. Like, I’m, right now I’m like, “Okay, let’s 2X out this year,” but as I was talking to you before we started filming, I wanna push further, and I honestly think adding services, even with the cost of fulfillment factored in, like, I wanna 4X. Like, I just- Right … I think it’s possible.

[00:02:15] Nathan: So what are you on track for revenue-wise right now, if we just play forward what happened in Q1?

[00:02:20] Layla: Don’t let me jinx it, okay? Like- Yeah. … fake wood. It’s looking like it’ll be about 1.5 million this year. Yeah. I’m, I’m, I’m hoping to be able to say a higher number than that though, I really am.

[00:02:29] Nathan: But I mean, even at that point we’re, like, more than doubling revenue-

[00:02:32] Layla: Yeah …

[00:02:32] Nathan: with this one change.

[00:02:34] Layla: Yeah.

[00:02:34] Nathan: You know, this one weird trick that maybe all course creators should consider.

[00:02:37] Layla: Yeah. No, it’s, it’s right for everybody. Don’t give it any critical thinking at all. Just do exactly what I did.

[00:02:43] Nathan: So let’s walk through what was the model before, and the price point, and, and all that, uh, um, and then we’ll dive into what you switched to that, you know, has had this huge impact where already you’ve doubled or tripled monthly revenue and are on track to take it even further.

[00:02:57] Layla: Just so weird to say out loud, yeah. So after, after all the silos, it’s so great to break free. So original model, like, you want me to go way back back, or just, like, right before the change? Uh,

[00:03:06] Nathan: let’s go right before the change- Okay … and then we’ll, we’ll do the, the history a little later.

[00:03:09] Layla: Okay. So right before the change, the model was essentially a, um, I wanna say it was $1,500 one-time course.

[00:03:16] It might’ve been 2,000 at that point, $2,000 one-time course. Yep. We had a membership on the back end, how classic, and we had some splinter courses, like some mini courses that kinda were intended to ascend you into the next level.

[00:03:28] Nathan: Okay.

[00:03:28] Layla: That was the before. So it was very much done for y- or do it yourself, rather.

[00:03:32] It was a do it yourself course where you get the content, you have a little bit of community if you choose to pay for it. But honestly, when I was, you know, attending an event where we were at last year, I was kinda telling folks, like, “Hey, I’ve got a passive business.” Like, I spend my time doing things, but it’s very hands-off.

[00:03:48] It’s the passive income dream. And I’m deeply unsatisfied with it for the reasons around revenue, and then some other stuff we can get into.

[00:03:57] Nathan: I wanna talk all about l- satisfaction levels and that, ’cause most, you, you know, many people, uh, would be like, “Wait, you’re making six or $700,000 a year?” That, you know-

[00:04:05] Layla: Yeah

[00:04:06] Nathan: that’s absolutely incredible, and it is. But also, like, we all know what we’re capable of, we know the power of leverage, and, and, like, we’re all very driven, ambitious people. Yeah. And so it’s like, okay, I wanna, I wanna level up from here.

[00:04:17] Layla: Right.

[00:04:17] Nathan: So you’re at that six and 700,000.

[00:04:20] Layla: Again, and again, and again.

[00:04:21] Nathan: Yeah. Just keep hitting that ceiling. I, I mean, we have a lot of friends that have gotten to a, a very similar number-

[00:04:28] Layla: Yeah … and

[00:04:29] Nathan: gotten stuck there.

[00:04:29] Layla: It’s cursed. It’s cursed.

[00:04:32] Nathan: Then what w- what’s the model that you switched into? When you say you added services-

[00:04:35] Layla: Yeah …

[00:04:36] Nathan: what does that look like?

[00:04:37] Layla: So the immediate shift was essentially realizing two things.

[00:04:40] Number one, I wasn’t gonna get to the revenue numbers I wanted by just sheer force of will. I did the math. God bless math. I did the math, and I was like, “You know what? I really need to 3X my audience in order for my business to get to where it was gonna go.” My funnels were converting well, thanks to Kit and other things, but in order for that funnel to get enough traffic through it, I needed to either get really good at profitable ads, which I wasn’t gonna be able to do, or triple my audience.

[00:05:05] And I just, I, I could do it, but that would take me years and years. Yep. And so what I realized was, well, let me get down to the actual problem that I’m trying to solve, which is I’m trying to get this content out into the world. You know, we help small businesses systemize their operations. That’s the thing, and I’ve been doing it in this one particular way.

[00:05:22] Along the way, I listen, and I get a lot of requests from our customers for additional support. It’s not a foreign concept. Most of us have- Right … like, had ignored requests from customers. And more than anything else, it was the request of like, “Can I just get you to, like, hold my hand through this?” Like the steps might work.

[00:05:40] I’m scared. My team doesn’t wanna follow it. I got stuck on module two. I think I was saying before we started re- re- filming, um, I had a membership model for a while for the course, and I remember a moment where someone was like, “I’ve taken your membership for three years now. It’s amazing. I love it so much, I referred it to my uncle.

[00:05:59] I’m still at module two, but I hope by year four I’m gonna be able to get to where I need to get and finish this course.” Which mind you, only took 12 hours total. Okay. Like it was a pretty concise course. The services approach was to say, “All right, I hear you. Let me just try to fulfill that need.” And so we launched a service which was like a 90-day operations sprint where it built on top of the course we already had.

[00:06:22] It was the same A to Z, the same curriculum, but we added in a human audit at the beginning, a human checkpoint at three points along the course after the audit, and then we personalized it. So rather than saying take module one, two, three, four, it was take lesson 1.2, do this special thing that’s really relevant to you, then do lesson 2.4.

[00:06:39] Right. And so we just added that human touch into it, and that is the piece that has changed everything.

[00:06:45] Nathan: And so what’s the price point on this version? And I, I know you’re always changing and tweaking prices. Yeah. So, you know, at the moment of recording-

[00:06:53] Layla: Yes … what’s

[00:06:53] Nathan: the

[00:06:53] Layla: price point? Yes, yes, yes. So the course version by itself is around 2,000, 1997 or something or something like that.

[00:07:00] The services version is now at 2,500 per month for three months. Okay. I say that in that format for a certain reason, but 7,500 total.

[00:07:09] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:07:09] Layla: So that’s to go with someone on my team through that journey, and then if you wanna work with me, it’s 21,000.

[00:07:14] Nathan: Okay.

[00:07:14] Layla: Or 7,000 a month.

[00:07:15] Nathan: Why do you say it in that specific way?

[00:07:17] Of the 2,500 per month. Or you said, you said 2,500.

[00:07:21] Layla: Yes. So I really like tracking numbers, and so in the s- the lead-up to this service, I knew I wanted to do it right, like I’m a systems and ops person. So in the fall of 2025 when I was kind of piloting this out, I mean, between now and then I’ve done probably about 150 sales calls, maybe 200 sales calls.

[00:07:39] Okay. I did almost 100 last month. And I would just keep changing how I would present the offer and the price I would present the offer. And one of the biggest unlocks in terms of conversion rates on sales calls was quoting the number as a monthly rate, which was better for me ’cause I had fewer spikes.

[00:07:54] I actually didn’t care about getting the cash earlier for me.

[00:07:57] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:07:58] Layla: Um, and so rather than saying 7,500, or at the time I think it was 4,000 or 3,500 was the first quote. I asked 3,500 up front. I was like, “Ah, okay.” Then I changed it to 2,000 a month for three months. And I don’t know, that math just really changed, then I went to 2,500.

[00:08:15] To me that feels a lot clearer, and I say 2,500, not 2500, because ESL. So I have a lot of folks who aren’t, you know, uh, using English as their first language- Right … perhaps. And so I just kind of try to build a shtick. It’s more

[00:08:27] Nathan: clear.

[00:08:28] Layla: Mm-hmm.

[00:08:28] Nathan: 2,500-

[00:08:30] Layla: Yep …

[00:08:30] Nathan: each month for three months.

[00:08:31] Layla: Yep, for now. For now.

[00:08:33] Nathan: And then it’ll go up later.

[00:08:34] It’ll be 3,000. Yeah. You know, it’s interesting. It sounds like a much lower price. Maybe 7,500 would be a large amount to lay out all at once.

[00:08:43] Layla: Feels like a lot.

[00:08:44] Nathan: Yeah, um, and all that, then, you know, it does ease people into it. Yeah. And you avoid this large sticker shock.

[00:08:50] Layla: Yeah. And, you know, small businesses, cash flow’s a consideration.

[00:08:53] And also, they’re used to hiring operations people. Right. So, like, they have that fractional s- you know, ops person that they’re paying $4,000 a month for.

[00:09:02] Nathan: Right.

[00:09:02] Layla: So, like, they’re getting all of their other things in a monthly rate. It makes sense for me to be a monthly rate. And when I compare that with, oh, but it’s 90 days, it’s just three months.

[00:09:10] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:09:11] Layla: And so that-

[00:09:11] Nathan: And then it has that off-ramp by only… Oh, that’s fascinating.

[00:09:13] Layla: Yeah. So-

[00:09:14] Nathan: Okay. So we need to tell the listener- Mm-hmm … what the service actually is- Okay … that you’re providing. What problem are you solving?

[00:09:20] Layla: Yeah.

[00:09:20] Nathan: And who are you solving it for?

[00:09:21] Layla: Well, I’ll sta- start with the person, ’cause I think- Okay

[00:09:23] that’s really kind of the key to this- Yeah … whole journey. So the person we’re working with is someone who is in charge of a five to 50-person team making 5 to 50 million-

[00:09:32] Nathan: Okay …

[00:09:33] Layla: who is struggling around tasks, knowledge, and communication. So what that looks like symptomatically is, like, we’re not getting things done, we have to have a lot of meetings, promises are being broken, I have to double-check things.

[00:09:46] One of my clients had this line, uh, “Whatever happened to, dot, dot, dot.” Those kinds of sentences- Right … are when people start to feel this, like, process breakdown.

[00:09:55] Nathan: Things are being dropped.

[00:09:56] Layla: Things are being dropped. Yep. Exactly. And so usually they will go try to change software, no offense to software. God, n- don’t know anybody who does

[00:10:04] Nathan: that stuff.

[00:10:04] Like, we, we were on Notion, now w- we’ve to ClickUp, and now we’re trying this, and have you heard about monday.com? Or, you know, and you’re just jumping between everything and, like, that’s the solution- Yep … is new software. Yeah.

[00:10:15] Layla: Yep, yep. And admittedly, I mean, backstory real quick, lore dump, I was a YouTuber who did tutorials on software.

[00:10:21] Nathan: Okay.

[00:10:21] Layla: So like, eh, I kinda knew that world. Yeah. And there’s a lot of money to be made in telling people, “Hey, if you just switch this software, your whole world’s- It’ll solve

[00:10:27] Nathan: all your problems.

[00:10:28] Layla: Yeah. Exactly, exactly. And yet it doesn’t. It just moves the problems. Um, so usually that happens first, then they go to the point of, like, I need an executive coach.

[00:10:35] The coach says, “I don’t know. Just change your team.” They fire their whole team. They restart, and then usually at that point, they’re like, “Hmm, maybe it’s how we operate.”

[00:10:44] Nathan: Right. ”

[00:10:44] Layla: Maybe it’s, like, what is normal in our culture. Maybe it’s the fact that we never write down an agenda. Maybe it’s that we’ve, we don’t know what we do on a Monday morning.”

[00:10:52] And that’s when usually they’ll come to me. They’ll watch a YouTube video, and that’s where all of our leads come from. Uh, in a lot of my sales calls, which I still do most of them right now, I’ll just ask, like, “What, what does a Monday morning look like for you? Where do you go on Monday morning to know what you’re supposed to work on?”

[00:11:07] And that is usually, like, that’s the whole story in one scene.

[00:11:11] Nathan: Well, now we gotta dive into sales- … because that’s such an important thing. But most people do sales the opposite way of what you just described, where they say- I

[00:11:18] Layla: don’t know. I’m figuring this out, Nathan. Tell me how other people do sales.

[00:11:22] Nathan: Well, what most people do is they say, they ask maybe a few questions about like- Oh, yeah

[00:11:26] “Hey, tell me about your team size, revenue”- Mm-hmm … that sort of thing. You know, “If we were to solve this problem for you, what would that look like?” Right?

[00:11:32] Layla: Um- What would a magic wand be?

[00:11:34] Nathan: Yep. Yeah. And then you di- you know, or they’re diving into all of these specifics around, “Okay, and then here’s what our offering would do for you,” and, and all that.

[00:11:41] I, I talk at you for 20 or 30 minutes.

[00:11:44] Layla: Yeah.

[00:11:44] Nathan: Five minutes of questions, talk at you. What you’re doing immediately is getting them to talk.

[00:11:49] Layla: Yeah.

[00:11:50] Nathan: And- Mm-hmm … they will identify all the problems. They will talk through, “Here’s what’s working. Here’s what’s not.” And that will give you so much information. And that you don’t have to tell them, “Ooh, sounds like you really have a problem.”

[00:12:01] Yeah. Like, they will do all of that for you, and then you can just point to the solution.

[00:12:07] Layla: Exactly. And, you know, I love data points, so for anyone who’s, like, tracking this, like, “How do I take this actionably?” I notice that for me, when I do sales calls, ’cause I track all these in, you know, in AI Notetaker, I talk 20 to 30% of the call.

[00:12:18] Nathan: Okay.

[00:12:18] Layla: Including the closing, where I’m usually talking a lot more of, like, “Here’s what we do. Here’s how we help. Here… Hey, let me answer your questions about this.” So it’s largely just, it’s extremely diagnostic, and I think it’s just because I literally don’t know how to do it the proper way.

[00:12:32] Nathan: No, what you’re doing- But it works

[00:12:33] is the pr- is the, not the default way that human… If someone’s in sales, they’re like, “I gotta talk until I convince you of it.”

[00:12:39] Layla: Yeah.

[00:12:40] Nathan: But w- I think you are doing it the proper high conversion, all that way.

[00:12:45] Layla: It feels good, right? Like, it doesn’t feel like you’re doing something, like, you know, the sales has all those associations with it.

[00:12:51] It feels like, oh, I’m just, like, listening.

[00:12:53] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:12:53] Layla: And if we were grabbing coffee here… That’s what I’ll say usually at the end, like, “If we were grabbing coffee, I would suggest that you don’t work with us. Here’s why. You should probably go check out these guys instead.” That’s a pretty common, like, ending to a call, and that’s okay.

[00:13:04] Nathan: Yeah. We do that with Kit where, you know, or I was on a call recently with someone who, they were running, like, a media company in a more traditional way and all that, and we said, like, “Actually, this competitor of ours would be a much better fit for you.”

[00:13:16] Layla: Yep.

[00:13:16] Nathan: And they were like, “Really?”

[00:13:18] Layla: Yeah.

[00:13:18] Nathan: And we’re like, “Yeah, and here’s why.”

[00:13:20] And, you know, this is someone who was gonna work with a bunch of different brands, and so I was like, “Now, if you have, if you work with a brand that matches these criteria-

[00:13:27] Layla: Mm-hmm …

[00:13:28] Nathan: that’d be a perfect fit for us. But in this case, I think you should go with this other platform.” And it, it builds so much trust instantly.

[00:13:34] Mm-hmm.

[00:13:37] Oh. Wow. Yeah. Thank you. Yeah. And sometimes they’ll flip and be like, “No, but here’s why we should work with you.” Uh-huh. But, but most often they’re like, “Okay.” Yeah. “That sounds absolutely right.” And then you build all this goodwill that- Mm-hmm … lasts for a long time.

[00:13:48] Layla: Yeah, it’s almost like the difference between a sales call and a screening call.

[00:13:50] I honestly think the way we do it, it’s really a screening call, and I’ve only psychoanalyzed this because we’re now hiring someone for sales. Right. And so I’ve had to write down in text, “If it’s not a fit, tell them to go to these other competitors.” And I’m like, that’s a weird thing to be writing down.

[00:14:04] Nathan: Right.

[00:14:04] Layla: But also, it’s honest, so. But it’s in

[00:14:05] Nathan: your SOP.

[00:14:07] Layla: It’s in the SOP, yeah.

[00:14:08] Nathan: Okay, so you’re tracking a lot of numbers.

[00:14:10] Layla: Yeah.

[00:14:11] Nathan: And I love that. You know, you were talking earlier as we were in the car driving over, you were like, about how much you love math, right?

[00:14:16] Layla: As long as it’s not mental, yeah.

[00:14:17] Nathan: Yeah, exactly. We won’t do any math on the

[00:14:19] Layla: spot.

[00:14:19] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:14:19] Layla: Safe.

[00:14:20] Nathan: Safe. Safe

[00:14:20] Layla: space.

[00:14:20] Nathan: What are some of the metrics that you track in your business that are most important?

[00:14:24] Layla: The number one metric for me is runway.

[00:14:27] Nathan: Okay.

[00:14:27] Layla: So the number of months we can go if all revenue stops tomorrow.

[00:14:32] Nathan: Is that how much cash you have in the bank divided by your monthly expenses? Okay.

[00:14:34] Layla: Yeah. Specifically my non-opera- … So, like, I’ll have checking and savings. Yeah. Nothing fancy. I will just take the savings number and divide that by our average expenses, and to get the number of months of runway. And I broadcast that to the team as well as some other numbers every single month.

[00:14:48] Nathan: Okay.

[00:14:48] Layla: So they know and they have that peace of mind, ’cause I think the hard part about working for a small business is oftentimes you’re like, ”

[00:14:54] Nathan: Ugh.”

[00:14:55] Will we be here tomorrow?

[00:14:56] Layla: Yeah, exactly. And a lot of the folks that we’ve had join our team over the years have been people who were laid off. Mm-hmm. They were in tech. They got laid off during all of that stuff. Right. They’re like, “Hey, let’s try this thing.” And so I think it’s really important to model that.

[00:15:08] That’s my number one.

[00:15:09] Nathan: Do you have a rule of thumb of how mu- like, how many months of runway or?

[00:15:12] Layla: I used to have six. Mm-hmm. And then I realized that’s excessive. So I actually have a goal now. I’m in the process of whittling it down. I wanna be at three, because it’s just our savings account. We have checkings as well.

[00:15:23] I think three months would be great. I, I think everyone comes into business with their own money story. Yeah. You know, I was a scholarship kid, like, I, I didn’t know any of this world. Um, and so I had a tendency to just hoard.

[00:15:34] Nathan: Uh-huh.

[00:15:35] Layla: And I wouldn’t take a salary, and I wouldn’t… You know, I paid myself very little.

[00:15:39] And I had to kinda shift that and realize, you know what? Like, it’s good to put the profit into the business. It’s also good to actually take care of myself so I’m not, like, you know, squeezing every juice- Yeah … out of the lemon.

[00:15:49] Nathan: And then if you look maybe at your sales process or leads or, you know, you were mentioning even tracking down to how much you were talking on a sales call or being aware of that.

[00:15:59] Yeah.

[00:15:59] Layla: What

[00:15:59] Nathan: are some of the metrics- Yeah … in that process that are important to you?

[00:16:02] Layla: Oh my gosh. I mean, I, what I love about the services world is that it is so trackable as compared to an organic business that I had previously, where it’s like, oh, well, how many emails did we have? And then we only can track from there on.

[00:16:14] Here, we’ve got so many more touchpoints, but- The key numbers now are, uh, number of calls booked, number of days from a yes that someone can start a project. That is one that has been really eye-opening. And then, I mean, sales. So like sales count, how many have we sold in a t- a current period? Um, I wanna start tracking referrals.

[00:16:34] I haven’t really done too much with that yet other than being like, “Oh, yay, we’re getting referrals just a few months in. That’s amazing.” Um, but those are the, the service specific ones. And then funnels, I mean, between like the kit automations but also just the sales cycle in general, tracking like what percent go from call or s- from the call page to book a call, from booking a call to being qualified for an offer, from getting an offer to buying the offer.

[00:16:58] We just have each number in a spreadsheet, and it’s not high-tech, it’s just tracking a number once a week or once a month and counting And, you know, that’s worth it to me ’cause I understand what is actually not working, which is sometimes hard otherwise.

[00:17:13] Nathan: Yeah. What’s an example of in that spreadsheet and as you’re tracking things, finding something that’s not working, like finding a new bottleneck, and then digging in and fixing that?

[00:17:21] Layla: Yeah. We had one where, um, it was our webinar. We, we did a webinar launch to get people to book a call. Mm-hmm. We changed all of our main funnels from saying, “Buy our course,” to, “Actually, buy our service, and if you don’t want the service, get a course.”

[00:17:33] Nathan: Right.

[00:17:33] Layla: And so there was a big ref- redo, and we didn’t get the conversion we thought overall.

[00:17:37] Like, we had this many people. I think it was like 2,000 people registered for this webinar. I forget how many booked a call, but it wasn’t what we expected. It was, like, really low. Like, what’s happening? Ah. We went to our contractors. They’re like, “Ah.” The copywriter said it’s the ad’s fault. The ad said it’s the copywriter’s fault.

[00:17:51] Yeah. And they all thought it was the webinar’s fault, um, which might have been true. But then we looked at the numbers, and we actually saw the problem was the show-up rate. Hmm. And when we looked at it and we said, well, if the show-up rate to people who registered actually showed up was even within the realm of normal, we would’ve hit every single goal of that campaign.

[00:18:09] Every other conversion rate was exactly where it needed to be except for that one, and we wouldn’t have known that, and we had gotten misleading advice all over until we actually looked at the, just the math of how many people got to each step.

[00:18:19] Nathan: Did you run more webinars? And if so, how’d you fix the show-up rate?

[00:18:23] Layla: So we actually kept that same webinar because the webinar didn’t seem to be the problem. It was the show-up rate. Yeah. And we switched it to Evergreen, and then once they, uh, opt in through our kit form, uh, they then get automatically redirected to the, the webinar, the blueprint- Okay … which is our approach to systemizing.

[00:18:40] Therefore, no show-up problem because they literally see it upon redirect. And then we have an email sequence that makes sure if they clicked off very quickly, it takes them back there repeatedly. And

[00:18:50] Nathan: so- They have more opportunities to come back and watch it.

[00:18:51] Layla: Exactly. And I’m like, “Ugh, why didn’t we figure this sooner?”

[00:18:54] And

[00:18:54] Nathan: you’re not teaching it live-

[00:18:56] Layla: Yeah …

[00:18:57] Nathan: at all.

[00:18:58] Layla: No, I don’t- Do

[00:18:58] Nathan: you feel like you’re giving up anything in the webinar being pre-recorded?

[00:19:02] Layla: Oh, I’m sure. I’m sure. I mean, isn’t that, like, the whole thing of just choosing what you’re willing to give up?

[00:19:06] Nathan: Right.

[00:19:07] Layla: I’m, I’m happy to give that up and ex- and it, instead, though, I work with co- clients.

[00:19:12] Right. Like, I would rather have four one-on-ones with these high-end clients over a quarter than host four webinars, and I know for other people that math is different. I love teaching, but I film a YouTube video every week. Like, if you wanna hear me teach, there you go. Like, it’s fine. This webinar is, like, B.

[00:19:28] B, B+ maybe. Right. And I’m okay with that ’cause the math still supports that that’s not the bottleneck, so I’m not gonna solve it.

[00:19:33] Nathan: Okay, so let’s talk about bottlenecks because you have this laid out basically like a factory.

[00:19:38] Layla: Yeah.

[00:19:38] Nathan: You know? And, and I’m obsessed with the theory of constraints and-

[00:19:41] Layla: Yeah, okay

[00:19:42] Nathan: and finding- Yeah … finding the bottleneck, optimizing for that. What’s the biggest bottleneck in your business right now?

[00:19:48] Layla: As of last week, it was sales. Okay. People to take sales calls. So, like, the volume of calls that we had coming in, I was taking most of them. It was insane, tried to hire a salesperson.

[00:19:57] That was not gonna- You said you did

[00:19:57] Nathan: 100 calls last month?

[00:19:58] Layla: It was about 100 last month. Okay. Yeah. It was a lot. And then-

[00:20:01] Nathan: So clearly, uh, number of interested leads was not the bottleneck at all. No. It was, can we get on a call and actually close them?

[00:20:07] Layla: And you know what? Just quick side note for anyone out there who’s a product creator, a course creator, whatever, I would bet that’s other people’s experiences as well.

[00:20:14] Mm. I think we had waited so long to have some kind of one-on-one human touchpoint offer, that by the time we did, you know, the 20,000 people on our email list were like, “Oh my God, finally. Finally.” Like, when we just started sending out emails where it was just like, “Hey, if you wanna systemize your business and you’re tired of waiting around, click this link to book a call.”

[00:20:32] And that alone got a bunch of people to come through the journey. So I think a lot of folks are gonna be in that same situation, where demand is not the problem. And I don’t think we’ve yet hit the limit of what is just in our own list, candidly.

[00:20:44] Nathan: Okay, so you-

[00:20:44] Layla: Sorry. I got,

[00:20:45] Nathan: I get- I think that that’s obviously true, but you just said something that is very important.

[00:20:48] Layla: Oh,

[00:20:48] Nathan: gosh. And I want people to not skip over it.

[00:20:52] Layla: Okay.

[00:20:53] Nathan: You just said your email list is 20,000 people.

[00:20:55] Layla: Oh yeah, it’s tiny.

[00:20:56] Nathan: If we had… W- First of all, 20,000 people is, like, a basketball arena, so it’s a good number from that sense. But-

[00:21:01] Layla: Fair …

[00:21:02] Nathan: you know, for the numbers that you’re putting up, it’s very small.

[00:21:05] Layla: Yeah.

[00:21:06] Nathan: Right? Mm-hmm. And so if a lot of people, you know, think about, okay, revenue per subscriber- … all this per month, you know, I’m-

[00:21:12] Layla: Services! I might- Services.

[00:21:15] Nathan: You know, I might be like, okay, I’m making, uh, if I have 20,000 subscribers, maybe I’m making 100,000 a year. Like, that would be, a lot of people would say that’s good.

[00:21:24] Layla: What?

[00:21:24] Nathan: Uh, maybe- Yeah … like $200,000 a year. Now we’re making, like, professional, like, you pr- went to school for a long time to make that amount of money and all that. And you’re like, “Yeah, no, we’ll, like, if we can’t accelerate things throughout the rest of the year, we’ll cap out about 1.5 million this year on 20,000.”

[00:21:38] And you’re like, “But I think we can accelerate things a lot more.”

[00:21:41] Layla: Really, truly. And you know what, to be real with you, I talk a lot of time about, like, for folks who are interested in starting a YouTube channel, I’m like, I don’t know what I’m doing, but I started a YouTube channel. Like, it kinda helped. It was around 5,000 YouTube subscribers, which are far less valuable than email subscribers, that my entire book of business, I was booked out six months.

[00:21:58] Like, that’s why I went into the courses and memberships and all these other things to begin with, ’cause I was trying to solve that problem. It does not take a large audience by any means to make a really sizable and meaningful business. But most people don’t think about it. They’re so consumed with the audience, whereas I guess I kind of approached it from the opposite perspective.

[00:22:17] I only went on YouTube to build my book of business, and then when that was, like, going pretty well, I’m like, I don’t need any more YouTube followers. Right. This is fine. Get on my email list and we’ll, we’ll take it from there.

[00:22:26] Nathan: I’m curious about this. So if we have- 1.5 million in annual revenue divided-

[00:22:33] Layla: But per subscriber, is that where you’re

[00:22:34] Nathan: going?

[00:22:35] By 20,000. So we’re at $75 in revenue per subscriber.

[00:22:39] Layla: Yeah.

[00:22:40] Nathan: And that’s a helpful number to, it’s a fantastic number, but it, it’s a help- revenue per subscriber total is helpful to think about You know, if you’re comparing between different business models- Sure … all that know is a total. You could end up…

[00:22:53] There’s a couple traps in that number. Um, the first one is that it’s always, it’s total annual revenue divided by total subscriber count.

[00:23:02] Layla: At the beginning of the year.

[00:23:03] Nathan: Yeah, at the beginning of the year, but also a lot of those people might have been on your list for a long time.

[00:23:08] Layla: Yeah.

[00:23:08] Nathan: That sort of thing.

[00:23:09] Yeah. Yeah. So it could both mask that you’re bringing in better subscribers who are paying more, or, or it could mask that a lot of people have been on this list for a long time, they’re never gonna buy.

[00:23:20] Layla: Sure.

[00:23:21] Nathan: And, or, you know, or they’ve already purchased. Or you might say, “Okay, wow, $75 per subscriber. I could be running meta ads at $6 per subscriber.”

[00:23:30] You know, which would be a crazy amount of money to spend. And you, if you weren’t tracking cohorts, you might find that the new subscribers you’re bringing in are very poor quality, but it’s blended in the total averages, and you might

[00:23:42] Layla: not find out. I’ve not done that at all.

[00:23:44] Nathan: Um.

[00:23:45] Layla: Yeah.

[00:23:45] Nathan: Yeah. I, I’ve definitely done that.

[00:23:47] But-

[00:23:47] Layla: Yeah …

[00:23:48] Nathan: that’s where, you know, if you could track revenue per subscriber, um, over a 90-day period after they come in, that could be something like, then you would, you would notice early on, oh, these new YouTube videos that are driving leads are, you know, driving really high quality subscribers. Or they’re, ooh, actually this, this video did great, but like 90 days later, the leads that came from that weren’t actually worth much.

[00:24:14] Yeah. And so, um, I just think it’s a really important metric, uh, to look at and track, and more people should do that.

[00:24:20] Layla: Yeah, the, I mean, the ability to track UTMs and just see- Mm-hmm … which video generated subscribers. Right. I mean, it was kind of a, a sit down conversation with our YouTube person who’s, like, setting everything up for YouTube.

[00:24:29] I was like, “Hey, I don’t care about subscriber count. I don’t care about watch time in so much as, you know, I need to, but what I do care about is how many subscribers do we get to our email list per video? I wanna know what that is and produce more videos like that.” And you only know that if you’re tracking that information.

[00:24:44] Right. I guess the other thing I will say that has been helpful in that regard is in wasting a ton of money on meta ads, hypothetically speaking, um, I don’t know, we probably wasted like $40,000 in meta ads, if I’m being…

[00:24:56] Nathan: Yeah,

[00:24:56] Layla: not the only one, hopefully. In that journey, one of the things I realized is we should be tracking organic stuff at the same level that we’re tracking paid ads.

[00:25:03] Nathan: Yes.

[00:25:04] Layla: And so our, the amount of times my team is going into Kit, pulling numbers, being like, “How many people are in this segment of they started the sequence? How many bought during the sequence? Wait 90 days later. Who bought something since that opt-in?” Right. Like, that’s why I feel like even though I’m saying all these numbers, I don’t think my business has ever been simpler in some ways, even with courses and memberships and services now, because it now feels very do, do, do.

[00:25:25] It’s a flywheel.

[00:25:26] Nathan: Mm-hmm. Okay. So let’s dive into that, ’cause a lot of people make this as- assumption that, like, at- 100,000 a year I can run a very simple business, and then at 500,000 a year it has to be more complex. And if I wanna do something, if I ever wanna break a million, like, I’ve gotta have, like, a very sophisticated…

[00:25:43] It’s gotta be brilliant, and there’s, you know, I’m gonna get up on the board and with, I got the string, and I’m gonna outline, and it, it’ll be a little complicated. But I’ll explain to you how we broke through a million dollars.

[00:25:51] Layla: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:25:52] Nathan: And the story that I hear- I bought that … over and over again- Yeah

[00:25:55] is, “Actually, I found a slightly different model. I simplified, I eliminated things, and revenue doubled.”

[00:26:02] Layla: Yep. And if I can make it even worse, even more of like a ugh. I actually basically went back to what I was doing in 2019.

[00:26:11] Nathan: Okay.

[00:26:11] Layla: So I, I remember telling my team in the beginning of 2025, “The theme of 2025 is 2019.”

[00:26:17] We went back to the same service. Like, I’m essentially offering the same services I offered then, but in a, a slightly different flow now with more established IP, which was worth the detour. But everything we’re doing is just simplifying back to what I did essentially as a one-and-a-half person business.

[00:26:33] Except now, doing it at a different level, ’cause I, I needed that detour.

[00:26:37] Nathan: Okay, so this gets to one of my business rants. Oh, yes. Uh, and that is, uh, one of my least favorite quotes in business.

[00:26:44] Layla: Uh-huh.

[00:26:44] Nathan: It sounds so smart.

[00:26:45] Layla: Okay. ”

[00:26:46] Nathan: What got you here-”

[00:26:48] Layla: Mm “…

[00:26:48] Nathan: won’t get you there.”

[00:26:49] Layla: Mm-hmm.

[00:26:50] Nathan: Yeah. And I think that is true 50% of the time.

[00:26:55] And the other 50% of the time- … it’s absolutely not true.

[00:26:58] Layla: And if it’s only right 50% of the time, we’re basically just studying the weather. Yeah. And then it’s like, why are we even saying this? Yeah. What, what, what got you here may probably- Mm-hmm … yes or no get you there.

[00:27:08] Nathan: May or may not get

[00:27:09] Layla: you there.

[00:27:09] Nathan: That’s

[00:27:09] Layla: sort of the point, yeah.

[00:27:10] Nathan: So on one hand, w- it brings up aspects of it where you’re like, you should absolutely question whether the activities that got you to a certain revenue level are the right things- Right … to get to the next stage. Maybe before we did it solo, now we need to do it as a team. The behaviors that you show up with of like, “Okay, I gotta be super scrappy, I gotta do it all myself.

[00:27:29] That’s the only way we’re gonna hustle through this.” And now at this later stage it might be like, “Oh, I need to hire team members that I can give an outcome to, not just a task.” Yeah. And, right? And so that, that’s a what got you here won’t get you there. Sure. The inverse, I go- I’ll share, you know, you, you shared one from your life right?

[00:27:46] Of like, oh, service has got me here. It won’t get me there. It’s only taken- Oh, wait, just kidding … it’s taken- It actually will. Yeah,

[00:27:51] Layla: a five-year detour.

[00:27:53] Nathan: So for Kit, we, direct sales is the thing that made all of the difference. We used direct sales to go from 2,000 a month in revenue to 100,000 a month in 12 months.

[00:28:03] Layla: Wow.

[00:28:03] Nathan: And then we continued direct sales, and we applied that to affiliates and partnerships to go from 100,000 to 500,000 a month in the next 12 months. Incredible. In a 24-month period-

[00:28:13] Layla: Mm-hmm …

[00:28:13] Nathan: we went from two grand to $500,000 a month, and it was absolutely insane.

[00:28:18] Layla: Yeah.

[00:28:18] Nathan: And then we said, now we need to do the thing that all grown-up software companies do.

[00:28:22] And that’s where we should have all of our marketing channels, they should be dialed in. You know, paid ads, all of that.

[00:28:27] Layla: And take out the thing that

[00:28:29] Nathan: was working. And we… And the idea is like, that’s working, so we’ll just keep it going. And we spent, oh, the next four years probably, still growing really well, but at the same linear amounts.

[00:28:40] We would add about $4 million to $5 million in annual revenue every year. Mm-hmm. But never accelerated it.

[00:28:46] Layla: Yeah.

[00:28:47] Nathan: And we kept going back to like, affiliates is fine as a channel, but it’s limiting. And direct sales, like no one… You can’t scale

[00:28:55] Layla: through direct sales.

[00:28:56] Nathan: No. You know, espe- It’s like

[00:28:56] Layla: services.

[00:28:57] Nathan: What are you thinking?

[00:28:57] Especially at our price point. Like, that’ll never work.

[00:28:59] Layla: Yeah.

[00:29:00] Nathan: Until… And then I kinda went back and realized, like wait a second. What were we do… When things were really working, what were we doing? And we turned around and we really embraced direct sales, and then both to acquire customers and to acquire affiliates and partners, and it worked so well.

[00:29:17] And, you know, and so it was like, oh, what got us here might actually be really good at getting us there. And I think as entrepreneurs, you know, w- we do this thing where we listen to smart people on podcasts-

[00:29:30] Layla: Yeah …

[00:29:30] Nathan: who run different businesses than we do.

[00:29:32] Layla: Mm-hmm.

[00:29:33] Nathan: And we go, “Oh, you know what?” Or we go to, go to, uh, to masterminds, that sort of thing.

[00:29:39] Mm-hmm. You know, “You know what? I’m all in on growing on Instagram.” And someone’s like, “Hey, LinkedIn’s pretty great for me.” And you’re like, “Never mind- Okay. I’m gonna- … I’m all in on growing on LinkedIn.” Yep, yep, yep. You know, we’re like jumping from thing to thing and doing it all at once. Then you end up doing all of these things pretty mediocre instead of saying, “You know what?

[00:29:53] This is what we’re really good at, and we’re going to go. We’re going to keep scaling that thing.” We might make some little tweaks. We’ll question it and, and all that. But yeah, what got us here will probably get us there.

[00:30:06] Layla: You know what’s funny about that is, one of the practices I started, which I, I understand you might have something pretty similar, is I started making a log of key events in my business- Mm-hmm

[00:30:14] back in 2020, which was a great time to start tracking. So, like, major decision, major release, major product, I would log it in this one just, like, kind of spreadsheety thing. It was inside our ClickUp, and just here’s all the dates. And I would share that with new people when they would join the team.

[00:30:28] Here’s our story, just so you know. Okay. Like, we started this in 2020. Here’s, like, it was a VA business at first- Mm … and here’s how it evolved. Um, and it’s funny looking at that now because you can very much see the circularity of, like, now we’re going full circle, and it’s great to have that.

[00:30:43] Nathan: Everything old is new again.

[00:30:44] Layla: Everything old is new. But I think what’s fair to acknowledge in the won’t, you know, what got you here won’t get you there piece, is the reason why I thought I had to change was because I didn’t wanna do it in this way. Like, there were certain things that I associated with being a one-on-one service provider, and I mean, they’re trite at this point, and I was like, “Ah, I just don’t wanna do this.

[00:31:05] I’m an introvert. That’s not gonna be my superpower. I have a competitive- Okay … disadvantage to having conversations with people all the ti- especially this one, you know? Really painful.

[00:31:13] Nathan: No. That’s right.

[00:31:14] Layla: Yeah. And so I just made this story up that, like, because I don’t have a lot of energy, I’m not great with people, you know, da-da-da, like, this isn’t gonna work for me.

[00:31:21] And so therefore, I need to go over here. It became a Spark, uh, South Park episode. Because of that, therefore we went into this, but then this, but then this. And I think now when I have friends who are kind of going through an offer transition, having now gone through what seems like every model under the sun in eight years, um, I feel like it’s important to ask, why do you not wanna continue with the thing you’re doing?

[00:31:43] What do you think continuing with one-on-one services looks like, and what if it was not case, uh, not the case? You know, what if there was a world with which, you know, you could have one-on-one services, but you didn’t have to talk to a lot of people all the time. Would that be interesting? Oh, it would. Okay.

[00:31:57] Well, good news. ‘

[00:31:59] Nathan: Cause one-on-one services tells me, like, when you hear it- Yeah … you think, okay, so you’re doing client work.

[00:32:05] Layla: Mm-hmm.

[00:32:06] Nathan: And you are spending maybe five hours a week on content or lead gen or that sort of thing. Yeah. And then 40 hours a week on actually doing the work, and then the next 15 to 20 hours a week on the business admin and all of that, making sure everyone pays and everything else.

[00:32:22] And that does not sound enjoyable.

[00:32:24] Layla: No.

[00:32:24] Nathan: And that does not sound like a good way to scale.

[00:32:26] Layla: Mm-mm.

[00:32:26] Nathan: And so when people hear, oh, you went from products to services-

[00:32:29] Layla: Mm-hmm …

[00:32:30] Nathan: you know, in the ladders of wealth, you went from ladder four back to ladder two or three-

[00:32:34] Layla: Yeah …

[00:32:35] Nathan: then everyone’s like, “That’s terrible. I don’t want that.”

[00:32:37] Layla: Mm-hmm.

[00:32:38] Nathan: And so- What it sounds like you did is you, you noticed the particular parts of it, and y- I mean, you took the best parts of products, and you took the best parts of services- … and really were intentional about your time and the systems behind it, and you said, “Oh, I wanna have it all.”

[00:32:53] Layla: Yeah. You, you make it sound really smart there.

[00:32:55] Like, that’s not… Like, just to be clear, that’s the, that’s the- That’s not how it played out … Instagram version. Yeah. No. No, no, no, no, no. But yeah, yeah, yeah, sure, let’s play it off that way. Um, it was, it was, you know, a lot more painful than that. Each time, each year, especially hitting that plateau, like, I was used to growing, especially during COVID, as so many of us did really well during COVID, especially in digital work- like, helping digital workers work together.

[00:33:15] Like, I was in a pretty good position to-

[00:33:17] Nathan: Right …

[00:33:17] Layla: grow during

[00:33:18] Nathan: COVID. There was a wave that you were riding.

[00:33:19] Layla: Yeah. And, and that felt great to grow year over year and double and this, that, and the other, and then just, like, boop, boop, boop, boop, boop, boop, boop, what the heck’s happening here? Month over month, it’s the same.

[00:33:28] So, like, there was a lot of pain involved in realizing I needed to reflect on it. And one of the reasons, we talked about this earlier, I released a YouTube video showing what my calendar looks like in each of these business models. Oh, okay. Because that’s a real piece of it, and I didn’t know until I did it.

[00:33:43] Because no one talks about, what does it actually mean to be a course creator? How is your time being spent? Versus, what does your time look like if you’re a membership owner? Done that now. Here’s how my, like, across the team or when it was just me, here’s how time was actually spent, you know? People think, community, ah, perfect, people are gonna talk to each other.

[00:34:00] No. You’ve got 15-minute breaks where you’re in that forum a few times a day, especially if it’s just you. And, and there’s a re- a calendar implication for every business model, especially when you’re small. And so knowing that you’re ready to sign up for that in a short, you know, one-year period as you’re scaling it up, and then you figure out which pieces you wanna get off of your calendar, I, I thought that was really freeing, but it was not a smooth, perfect, like, da, da, da intentional process as it now feels like it was.

[00:34:28] Nathan: So let’s dive into that, because what your calendar looks like is such an important thing. It’s huge. In 2019, when you’re doing the services-

[00:34:33] Layla: Yeah …

[00:34:34] Nathan: what did your calendar look like then? Okay,

[00:34:36] Layla: 2019, um, I probably had about four clients at one time, four or five, whose, I think I called it System Up at the time, where I was doing full-on, uh, honestly, same kind of service I’m doing now, where I’ll help you set up a work management software, train your entire team, migrate all your data.

[00:34:52] Probably was working for about 40 to $50 an hour at that point, I would think. Okay. And I was just constantly doing fulfillment. Um, I had very few sales calls, because if I had a call, it closed ’cause I was undercharging. There’s a good sign, right? Closing more than 50%, you’re doing something wrong, not good.

[00:35:11] Nathan: Oh, I mean, that’s such an important point. Okay, yeah. ‘Cause everyone was like, you know, what’s … Like, if you were to ask someone, “What’s your ideal close rate?” They’d be, I mean, 100%.

[00:35:20] Layla: Yeah.

[00:35:20] Nathan: And you’re like, “No.”

[00:35:22] Layla: I respect, respect to this person, someone, uh, at the event that we were just at was like, “My close rate is 70%.”

[00:35:27] I said, “Uh-oh.” And they looked at me very confused. I’m like, “Wait, wait, wait. Wait, wait, wait.” “Congratulations, you get a raise.”

[00:35:34] Nathan: Right. Exactly. What, what do you want your close rate to be now?

[00:35:38] Layla: Right now, I want it to be, especially now that I have other people doing the calls, I want it to be, like, 20%.

[00:35:43] Nathan: Okay.

[00:35:43] Layla: Yeah.

[00:35:43] Because at this point, if someone’s not a fit and they have that positive experience with our, you know, person, or, or me, if they have that positive experience, it’s actually better for me.

[00:35:53] Nathan: Right.

[00:35:53] Layla: So I’m okay with 20%. That still covers all the costs and then some, and, like, we’re still groovy there. Um, so 20 to 30%, but 20% is good for me.

[00:36:01] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:36:01] Layla: Because-

[00:36:02] Nathan: And so if it were to creep up to 35%, you would say, “We’re undercharging.”

[00:36:06] Layla: Yep.

[00:36:06] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:36:07] Layla: Raise the prices, I think. Um, but in this point, it’s great to have that other 80% becoming advocates-

[00:36:12] Nathan: Right …

[00:36:12] Layla: in some way, because it really does, it is what it’s doing. Yeah,

[00:36:14] Nathan: make sure they have a great experience.

[00:36:16] You can leave them with other resources that you could say, like, “Hey, it’s not at the right fit-

[00:36:19] Layla: Yeah …

[00:36:20] Nathan: for it to work together right now. But, like, implement all of this.” Maybe someone comes in, they’re like, “Hey, we’re at half a million a year in revenue. We really- Yeah … need these systems and processes, and you’re just too expensive for us.”

[00:36:29] And you’re like, “Yeah, we are.”

[00:36:30] Layla: Right. ”

[00:36:31] Nathan: Why don’t you go take this?”

[00:36:32] Layla: Take our course.

[00:36:33] Nathan: Yep. “Go ahead and- Mm-hmm … implement all of that. And if at any point in the future you need help, we’d, we’d love to help you.”

[00:36:39] Layla: Yeah. One of the best things about doing this now for a while, the same offer over. Mm-hmm. Like, I’ve had the same offer for like six years.

[00:36:44] Six

[00:36:45] Nathan: of the eight. Oh, that’s another thing. All these creators are like, in order to scale, in order to break a million, I need new offers. I need, uh, multiple offers. Like- Yeah … m- maybe if I had the fourth product-

[00:36:54] Layla: Yeah …

[00:36:54] Nathan: then that will get me through the- Mm-hmm … glass ceiling.

[00:36:57] Layla: I mean, for me, it wasn’t true. I had, you know, my goal, you know, one of the pieces of advice I heard very early on from a free SCORE mentor.

[00:37:04] Shout out to SCORE, who’s a free, you know, small business administration in the US. Yeah. You get free mentorship through them. I had a SCORE mentor who was saying, you know, “Layla, brand is what you are known for when you leave the room. And business…” I don’t think this was his quote, but, “Business is about finding a problem so interesting you wanna spend 10 years solving it.”

[00:37:21] Yeah. Those two truths were kinda like my rock for the first beginning piece. So it took me two years to figure out my problem, but once I found it, I was like, why would I create more products? That’s almost a problem in some ways. But I created one product. Here is the solution for how to systemize your business of five to 50 people making five to 50 million.

[00:37:37] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:37:37] Layla: What is the perfect way to do that? Uh, that was not something I could just create. I, I created it, and then I refilmed that course just about every year, every six months. Updating, rebuilding, re- reformatting, re whatever.

[00:37:49] Nathan: Right. Okay. Yeah, that’s amazing. All right. So, um, you were saying you’re charging $40 to $50 an hour.

[00:37:54] Layla: Yeah.

[00:37:55] Nathan: Um, spending almost all your, all of your time on fulfillment.

[00:37:57] Layla: Yeah. Well- 2018 was even worse. It was $20 an hour or so. Sheesh.

[00:38:00] Nathan: I mean, we’re just doubling revenue, right? Yeah.

[00:38:03] Layla: I have a theme here.

[00:38:05] Nathan: Yeah, exactly. Started from the bottom.

[00:38:08] Layla: Started from the bottom, now we’re here.

[00:38:09] Nathan: What was revenue in 2019? Do you remember?

[00:38:11] Layla: Oh, gosh. I don’t know. Um, I wanna say it was like 100- Okay … 120, I think. Yeah. So I, I’m pretty sure the first year, I started in April. Officially, I got the paperwork on April Fool’s Day 2018. Oh, nice.

[00:38:22] Nathan: What a joke.

[00:38:22] Layla: Yeah. No, it was so perfect too, ’cause I didn’t even realize it. And then after I got the paperwork, ’cause it was like a f- online form and it printed out, and I was like, “Yep, yep.

[00:38:29] Okay.” Perfect.

[00:38:31] Nathan: My entire new business is-

[00:38:33] Layla: Is April Fool’s Day.

[00:38:34] Nathan: Yep. My brother’s birthday is April 1st, so I always tease him about it.

[00:38:36] Layla: Oh, perfect. Yeah. So, um, yeah. So I had my joke of a business. My plan at the beginning was to do this for two years, and then go back to corporate. Okay. I just wanted to get two years of experience.

[00:38:45] Mm-hmm. And I was like, “Oh, this will be a free or paid way to do it.” But it was 45K, I think, that first year, or 44K. And then, um, I think it was like 120.

[00:38:53] Nathan: In 2019?

[00:38:54] Layla: Yeah. Okay. In the next year. But I was working my ass off.

[00:38:57] Nathan: Yeah. Oh, yeah. I was

[00:38:57] Layla: working my ass off. Yeah.

[00:38:59] Nathan: And so then what did, what did it look like to kind of the next iteration of the business?

[00:39:05] Layla: Backing up, in 2018, I was really just doing virtual assistant stuff, which is part of where the $20 an hour came in. I remember I had a client being like, “You are, you know, you, you graduated from this great school. Like, why are you charging $20 an hour?” Yeah. Bless this heart. Like, thank you so much, Lisa. Um, that was a great experience.

[00:39:21] And so then I moved on and I read the book The Goal, which is about, you know, throughput, theory of constraint stuff. Yep. Oh, yeah. And I was like, “Okay. Hmm, I need to get my stuff together.” But-

[00:39:29] Nathan: It’s one of those books that all the business nerds have entirely read, and everyone else who’s just, like, wants the, the, the business fluff is like, “Oh, I’ve never touched that book.”

[00:39:39] Yeah. You know? They look at it and they’re like, “This looks like it was written in the ’70s or ’80s.” You’re like, “It was.” It

[00:39:43] Layla: was, yeah. This

[00:39:43] Nathan: looks like this is just for business. It is. It is,

[00:39:46] Layla: yeah.

[00:39:46] Nathan: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And, but then you get, you know- Mm-hmm … people like you and I are, like, obsessed with this book.

[00:39:50] Layla: Yeah.

[00:39:50] Well, I was an econ major, so I was like, “Ah, speaking my language.” Um, s- but reading that book and then, uh, Built to Sell, right? I was reading those. I was like, “All right. I really need to productize this.” So I did productized service in 2019, which is how I got over 100K, and that felt like a hurdle. The next year, I think it was in 250.

[00:40:06] I think it was doubling pretty consistently at that point. The next year is when I was using productized service pretty heavily. Like, everything was a productized service. It was six weeks or eight weeks or whatever, productized. And around that time, I guess we would’ve been in 2020.

[00:40:19] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:40:20] Layla: Some things started happening.

[00:40:21] And I remember it was, I had four or five clients, and one or two of them dropped due to COVID. And I was like, “What am I gonna do?” Like, I’ve got free time. Pff, enjoy it? No. So I started fil- ‘Cause we don’t do

[00:40:34] Nathan: that. Yeah. We’re entrepreneurs.

[00:40:35] Layla: Yeah. Like, this is massively uncomfortable. Um, and also, like, I just lost a significant chunk of revenue, right?

[00:40:42] When you’re in, you know, that kind of services, it’s 40% of your revenue potentially gone, so you lose a lot of revenue, and I decided to film YouTube videos during that. Mm-hmm. And I just filmed the responses to client questions. So for my remaining clients- Yeah … when they asked a question, I’d film the answer, put it on YouTube, and then send it to them.

[00:40:58] Mm. And that’s the, the other inflection point that changed the business. I think that one and, and honestly services are the two major pivot points that have really made a significant difference.

[00:41:08] Nathan: So, uh, that’s a, a content format that I love because, uh, I first learned this from Tim Ferriss, I don’t know who he learned it from, was to write to one person.

[00:41:19] Layla: Yeah.

[00:41:19] Nathan: Because we do this thing where we’re like, “Okay, what could everyone possibly wanna know about systems and processes?” This, like, broad- Why would

[00:41:26] Layla: anyone want to learn about this? Yeah,

[00:41:28] Nathan: or whatever the thing is that we’re teaching. Yeah. And so then we write this generic, like, it answers all these questions and all that.

[00:41:34] It’s not written to anyone in particular, and it’s just not very good. Yeah. And it’s hard. Like, you end up with this writer’s block all the time.

[00:41:40] Layla: Yeah.

[00:41:41] Nathan: And if instead you just have one person and you say, “Okay, let me answer this question for them.” So I actually wrote, um, my book on designing web applications.

[00:41:49] I wrote it to my brother-in-law- Hmm … because he was early in his design career and had just gotten his first jo- you know, um, job in design. And so every time I was like, “Okay, what does he need to know?”

[00:42:00] Layla: Yeah.

[00:42:01] Nathan: And so I would write, “Philip,” comma, enter, enter, and then I’d write a whole chapter. And then I’d go back and then I’d delete his name ’cause that’s weird in a book.

[00:42:08] Layla: Yeah, that would be weird.

[00:42:09] Nathan: That would be very odd if someone’s name’s all, Philip. Um, and it helped me write so much better because I could, I, you know, wrote naturally, wrote directly to him. The same thing is, you know, as content creators, we always think about, like, “Oh, what should I create?” All that. And you’re just going, “Well, what, what problems are top of mind for my ideal client?”

[00:42:28] Layla: Yeah.

[00:42:29] Nathan: Okay, let me go to my actual client.

[00:42:30] Layla: Yeah.

[00:42:31] Nathan: And then what I love about your example is someone asks you this question, and you’re like, “Hey, I wanna over-deliver. So maybe I would record a Loom video, like walking through talking about it, and send it to them.”

[00:42:42] Layla: Yeah.

[00:42:43] Nathan: And then… And what most people do is they would do that, and then they’re like, “Okay, and then I’ll use that as a basis to go make the other video.”

[00:42:49] Layla: Yes, exactly.

[00:42:51] Nathan: And you’re like, “Why don’t I just make the good video-”

[00:42:53] Layla: Yeah … and s- Well, no, it wasn’t good. W- w-

[00:42:55] Nathan: w- w- it was- No, it did good. Sorry, I set the bar a little too high. Yeah. Um, but why don’t I just make the public video, send that to them- Yeah … and say, “Hey, I made this just for you, and I thought it’d be helpful for a few other people also put it on YouTube”?

[00:43:05] Layla: Yep, exactly. Um,

[00:43:06] Nathan: I love it. I mean, there’s quite the content flywheel in that.

[00:43:09] Layla: Oh, it was beautiful, and honestly, I don’t think I knew it until, like, one of the best things about my business is I work with people who are smarter than me exclusively. Like, I’m sorry. Yeah. Like, there’s no one I work with that’s, you know, I can’t learn a ton from.

[00:43:21] And just like I had that client tell me, “You’re an idiot for charging $20,” she said in a much nicer way- Yeah … um, I had a client who was an author. Um, it wasn’t what he was doing. He was working at a construction firm. Hey, Mark. And Mark said- Layla, I love the fact that you didn’t answer my question. You sent me a YouTube video that just published a minute ago, how coincidental-

[00:43:38] about exactly my question. And he called it out, and he actually had the CEO of the business he was working on as the operator start doing that for his team. Mm. And they started a YouTube channel or some kinda Instagram reels, the same thing. Right. But I didn’t know it. I didn’t see it. I was just being lazy, and I didn’t wanna pay for file storage.

[00:43:54] And so YouTube was free, and so…

[00:43:57] Nathan: I didn’t… So it wasn’t even intentional.

[00:43:59] Layla: No, no, no, no. Not at first. Right. Not at first.

[00:44:01] Nathan: You’re like, “I could pay for a Loom account. I could…” Or Vimeo or is there anything you can use? Yeah, yeah, Vimeo. Yeah. Dropbox or whatever, or YouTube is free. And so…

[00:44:08] Layla: Exactly. And then when other people who weren’t my clients started seeing it, then I was like, “Oh, okay.”

[00:44:13] ‘Cause I thought at first, “Oh, I have a link I can send to more clients.” Right. That was the thinking. And then when I started getting clients from YouTube, which happened very, very early on, I was like, “Okay, this is totally different than I thought.”

[00:44:25] Nathan: It’s such an interesting thing, ’cause everyone is hung up on what content should I make.

[00:44:29] Which is strange to me. And so even, like, internal company content, right? Or any of that, you can just say, “What questions do people have?” And just answer the questions.

[00:44:36] Layla: But I think people get hung up on hypothetically, what are the themes we’re struggling with?

[00:44:40] Nathan: Right.

[00:44:40] Layla: Hypothetically, who would I talk to? Like, we think about, like, Pam, the imagination.

[00:44:45] You know, like, we imagine this person. Right. Our, our

[00:44:46] Nathan: avatar that

[00:44:47] Layla: we- An avatar. Yeah. Yep. When I first… I think my first video was for Suzette. I remember Suzette, like specifically. Right. And I didn’t say her name in the video out of protection, but I’ll shout her out here. But you know, when I was filming the videos, like, I had a client today ask me, “How do you connect Cognito Forms to Gmail?

[00:45:03] Here’s an answer, and how you can use this for your follow-up process.”

[00:45:06] Nathan: Right.

[00:45:06] Layla: And that’s it. And she felt very seen by it. Um, but I just think it needs to be a real person. Like, like, you know what I mean? Like, we need to have people who are real and not just this imaginary thing, and real questions in the same way.

[00:45:18] Nathan: We were at a table at this mastermind having a conversation yesterday about functionality in Kit.

[00:45:22] Layla: I was so afraid which conversation- … you were gonna pull from for a second here. I was like, ”

[00:45:26] Nathan: Oh.” Yeah, yeah. So, like, how to make more content. Yeah. And so the thing that I’ve been thinking about separately is how to make more content that directly shows how people use Kit and all of that.

[00:45:33] Layla: Mm-hmm.

[00:45:33] Nathan: And to do it in an easy way. Right? And so something that came up, we were talking about, um- tags and how you organize and manage tags and how to find them. And we added this whole new interface, and I was asking, like, “Is this better? How is it?” And all that. And it was like, “Well, I… It’s better in some ways and worse than others-

[00:45:48] because now we’re lazy loading the tags, and so you can’t do Command + F-

[00:45:53] Layla: Yep …

[00:45:54] Nathan: and just search for all the tags.

[00:45:55] Layla: Mm-hmm.

[00:45:55] Nathan: And so I was like, “Oh, man, I hate it when we… it’s like two steps forward, one step back in something we do with the product.” And I hadn’t heard that feedback before.

[00:46:04] Layla: Really?

[00:46:05] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:46:06] Layla: Oh, my God. And- Come on, Kit users.

[00:46:08] Let’s get together here.

[00:46:10] Nathan: And so I just heard people were so excited that there were folders for tags.

[00:46:13] Layla: Yes. That is also true.

[00:46:14] Nathan: And so I told that to my team this morning, and I was like, “Hey, I heard this feedback. I’m not sure the best way to handle it, but let- let’s start to think about it.” And one of our engineers piped in and said, um, “Well, totally hear that.

[00:46:28] We can fix that. But did they know that if you press Command + K- Mm-hmm … that you can search for a tag just right there?” Or if you g- press FT for find tag-

[00:46:39] Layla: Ah.

[00:46:39] Nathan: It pulls up- Uh-huh … a list of all of your tags and lets you just

[00:46:42] Layla: type- ‘Cause you’ve got the command bar built in.

[00:46:43] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:46:44] Layla: I didn’t even realize that.

[00:46:45] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:46:45] And so what this makes me think of, not that we’re trying to promote Kit content right now.

[00:46:48] Layla: Yeah, no.

[00:46:49] Nathan: Forget Kit. But I, I could make a video-

[00:46:51] Layla: Yeah …

[00:46:51] Nathan: that says, “So I was talking to a Kit customer the other day.” Yeah. “And they asked me about this, which made me realize a lot of people don’t know about these power features inside of Kit.

[00:46:59] If you press command K, if you do this. If you press N and then B, it’s not for Nathan Barry, it’s for new broadcast, and it jumps you right to the new broad-” Right? And so that’s just this, you know, talk to customers, hear what they want, and then I could make videos just about that, and I would have quite the…

[00:47:15] Like, I would have an endless stream of things to make, and it would be highly relevant, you know, to you and Chanel, right? Yeah. And then probably also to a few, a few thousand other people.

[00:47:25] Layla: And everyone that we talk to about it. Yeah.

[00:47:28] Nathan: Right.

[00:47:28] Layla: Yeah, that was where I first bonded with Chanel, actually, was about Kit, uh, analytics.

[00:47:32] But I think that’s huge, and I think one of the things… Can we go back to flywheels? Yeah. Um, one of the things that people, you know, they shit on service is, ’cause they’re like, “Ah, God, so much work, execution.”

[00:47:41] Nathan: Time for money, all of the stuff.

[00:47:42] Layla: All the stuff. It is the best research and dev- You are paid to make your product better, and that’s why when I started this service, I was like, “I’m gonna deliver the first ones.

[00:47:51] Like, you’re gonna get a great rate. I’m gonna do the sales call. I’m delivering it.” And it helped me make that product better, but also the course better. And one of the conversations I was having last year when we were, like, passive income business, I was like, “I want more impact. I wanna make sure we’re, we’re getting better, and I don’t feel like we’re getting better at the grade I want to to be done with this journey and have the answer.”

[00:48:11] And when you have s- like, to go back to the b-benefits of services, conversations with your customers-

[00:48:16] Nathan: Right …

[00:48:17] Layla: especially if you’re paid to have them, that’s not too bad either. Like, you will learn so much more than any fricking survey or market research study or analytics or numbers will ever tell you, because you’re able to learn from actually being with them and telling you what they wouldn’t otherwise tell you, and better still, seeing, like, we do screen sharing.

[00:48:37] We see more in that story than what they would ever tell us on an intake form.

[00:48:41] Nathan: Right. Yeah, ’cause if you’re just like, oh, how ClickUp or something is used in the ideal world-

[00:48:47] Layla: Yep …

[00:48:47] Nathan: we look at it in the tutorials and the marketing videos and all of that. Mm-hmm. And, but if you actually get into some of the, you’re like, “That?”

[00:48:54] Okay. All right, that’s how you use it. All right, let’s, let me meet you in reality-

[00:48:59] Layla: Yeah …

[00:48:59] Nathan: and help you with that.

[00:49:00] Layla: Yeah. We were telling, uh, so I’ve been hiring coaches, right? Who are fulfilling this, and one of the mantras I have for the coaches is, “Make sure that you’re showing and not telling.” Don’t talk about the work.

[00:49:09] Take them, you know, go into your mind’s eye. To your client, “Show me what it looks like Monday morning,” ’cause now we’re on a real fulfillment call. They’ll share their screen. “Where do you go first? Huh, and what do you do with that button right there?” Right. “Oh, you don’t use it. Okay, so that, that task thing, you don’t touch.

[00:49:23] Okay.” And then you go to planner, then you go to Apple Notes, then you go to… And they actually show the first, you know, 10 minutes of their day- Right … on the call. And you get a world of context about that, that, yes, helps you deliver that particular project. But you’re jotting notes like, “Hmm, looks like we might wanna screen for XYZ in the sales call.”

[00:49:40] And just making sure there’s always that feedback loop, um, I think is often skipped, in part because we try to make things too passive too early, and I, I… Especially if you have a human component, which I think I do. Right. Like, every business has a human component. You can’t go too hands-off, or you have to start paying a whole lot for market research- Right

[00:49:57] which feels like a waste of money.

[00:49:58] Nathan: Yeah, when you could be doing it hands-on customer development. Okay, so then as we’re scale- going back to your calendar and how you spent your time. Mm-hmm.

[00:50:06] Layla: Oh,

[00:50:06] Nathan: yeah. What, what did it look like? I mean, this is getting to some really great stuff. What did it look like when you- really went into the courses side of it.

[00:50:14] Layla: Yeah, so the courses side of it essentially is long, uninterrupted work blocks, which sounds amazing for, like, my brain. Like, yes. Yeah. Six hours of just staring at a screen, forgetting to eat. Amazing. Um, but here was the hard part of it, is I didn’t have that loop. I didn’t, I didn’t see what was working. I didn’t, I didn’t need to feel the hero complex, but, you know, course completion rates at 10%.

[00:50:40] Nathan: Right.

[00:50:40] Layla: The referrals we would get, we would get referrals, and, you know, people recommending friends. It wasn’t at the rate I was used to in services, which told me a lot about what would happen after someone bought a course. And my goal always was not to get the most revenue out of the business or to have the highest salary.

[00:50:55] I wanted to solve this fricking problem. Like, 10 years. My 10-year time clock is ticking. Like, I wanna get this going. I’m eight years in now. I got two years to finish this up. And I knew that if I kept with courses, our courses, I guess I didn’t say this, our course revenue continued to grow. Okay. Our conversion rates continued to increase.

[00:51:12] Our audience was growing, so I knew we would continue to grow with courses. It was just a matter of time. But I could make all the money I wanted to with courses, and I still would not solve the problem- Mm … because there was no flywheel, as you would say, back to product.

[00:51:25] Nathan: Okay.

[00:51:26] Layla: And so that was kind of the problem with it, and the calendar reflected that.

[00:51:31] It was deep focused work, reviewing intake forms every six months or three months or 12 months, do a giant refilm, sometimes live for a little bit of interaction. But it was like pulling teeth to find out what was working and what was not working for actual users of the product. We tried to do case study interviews.

[00:51:49] We, like, we had to spend so much work to do what is inherent in a service, and that’s when I kinda realized something should shift for what I wanted.

[00:51:56] Nathan: So that sounds like the ideal calendar to a lot of people. Yeah. Where you’re like, “Okay, time for money are, are-” Great calendar … pretty disconnected.

[00:52:03] Layla: Mm-hmm.

[00:52:03] Nathan: And all of that, but then you and the customer are disconnected. Uh- Yeah … the customer success rate-

[00:52:08] Layla: Mm-hmm …

[00:52:09] Nathan: is much lower.

[00:52:10] Layla: Yep.

[00:52:10] Nathan: Because a lot of people say, like, “Oh, I sold a half million dollars or a million dollars worth, worth of courses.”

[00:52:15] Layla: Yeah.

[00:52:15] Nathan: And cool, what do they do from there? And they’re like, “Well, we have-” Who cares?

[00:52:17] like these really great customers.” And you’re like, “All right. So you- you talked about 5 out of 1,000.” Right. “What happened with the other 995 customers?” You’re like-

[00:52:26] Layla: Bingo … ”

[00:52:26] Nathan: Well, some of them finished the course.”

[00:52:28] Layla: Yeah.

[00:52:29] Nathan: Is that right? ‘Cause the, the- You don’t

[00:52:30] Layla: know …

[00:52:31] Nathan: you often don’t have as much of an impact as you wish you did.

[00:52:36] Right? And you’re like, “Well, I did my part. I produced a great course. I sold it well. I got the right people in there, and I can’t hold their hand through it and create the outcome.” It’s like, okay, well, they didn’t get the outcome.

[00:52:46] Layla: Right.

[00:52:47] Nathan: And so-

[00:52:47] Layla: Or they did, and they’re not telling you.

[00:52:48] Nathan: Right.

[00:52:49] Layla: Also valid.

[00:52:49] Nathan: Yep, which does happen.

[00:52:51] And so there, you know, there’s things that you can do to collect information, get on calls, um-

[00:52:56] Layla: Testimonials. There’s so many great steps for that. You can have all the checkpoints in the world. Right. Still not the same.

[00:53:01] Nathan: And so, like, what was the spark where you were like, “Okay, I think I need to add the services component back into it”?

[00:53:06] Layla: I didn’t want to. I didn’t want to. I was so afraid of services for the reason so many are. I didn’t wanna go back to 2019. It felt like a step backwards. I think the reason I realized that it would work is because I had tried everything else, and it didn’t. So I tried, you know- As

[00:53:23] Nathan: measured by being stuck at 6 to $700,000 a year.

[00:53:25] Layla: Exactly. But yeah, tho- those stable years were not stable. It was like a duck, fish underwater trying a bunch of different things. Tried group programs. I, I crossed off things that weren’t aligned with what we were doing. I wasn’t gonna do a mastermind. Like, that stuff didn’t make sense. Um, and it just never got traction.

[00:53:40] Like, I felt it in my bones that if I offered, “Hey…” Oh, actually, no. You know what? There was a specific moment, actually, now that I think about it. The last offer I tried before this one, I believe it was… Oh yeah, this was it. Um, it was, I think, eight people at $8,000, I believe was the offer. Okay. And we’re gonna go through this together over about 90 days.

[00:54:00] And so, kinda, you can see the inklings here. Yeah. But no way was I gonna do one-on-one. I mean, like, come on. Right. Time for money. Eh. Um, and I got on those sales calls ’cause I, I put a quick email out in Kit and I was like, “Hey, anyone wanna do this?” Blah, blah, blah. Very basic details. Book a call. I think I did 20…

[00:54:17] No, it wasn’t even that many. It might’ve been 10 calls. And all but one asked, “Can I just pay 10X and just work with you directly one-on-one?” Or 10X, 5X. It was some ridiculous multiplier. How much would I have to pay? Would 40K make you just work with me just exclusively? 50K, can you just come out to my office and just work on site with us for a week?

[00:54:35] I think one of the lines I heard twice in those remaining calls was, “Can we just kidnap you and have you join our team?” And I’m like, “Hey, nice to meet you, by the way.” Yeah. “We’re strangers on the internet.” Um, and that’s when I kinda realized one-on-one is what my audience wants.

[00:54:50] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:54:50] Layla: And so- ‘

[00:54:51] Nathan: Cause it, it’s also a very intimate thing of, like-

[00:54:53] Layla: Oh, it’s so intimate.

[00:54:54] Yeah …

[00:54:54] Nathan: how my business operates, like what my goals are- So personal … who I hired, you know, all of these things. Mm-hmm. And it’s like, there’s a lot of things where, where being around other people is a perk ’cause you’re like, “Oh, I get to learn from these other entrepreneurs.”

[00:55:06] Layla: Yeah.

[00:55:06] Nathan: Not in this case. But if they’re in different industries and everybody’s gotta share all their…

[00:55:10] Yeah, you’re just like-

[00:55:11] Layla: Uh-uh … can

[00:55:11] Nathan: you just help me?

[00:55:12] Layla: Yeah. Like, it kind of feels like sometimes I’m on a, I’m filming episodes of Hoarders. Yeah. Except here’s the thing, like, I was on Hoarders, but now I’ve switched over to Marie Kondo stuff. That’s it. And so everyone on Marie Kondo is like, “Oh my God, I’m so embarrassed.”

[00:55:25] I’m like, “Trust me, I was on Hoarders before. This is nothing.” Um, and I think there’s some peace that comes with that in a one-on-one way that is hard to deny. Mm-hmm. And once I, like, got over my fears around it, which were my own stories I was bringing to it, I was like, “Oh, there is a way that I can give people what they actually want, God forbid, while also giving them what they need.”

[00:55:42] Nathan: That’s fascinating. Okay, and so then when you added in services, it’s not this done for you, we have a whole staff- No … that is gonna come in and all of it. Like an, it’s not an agency model.

[00:55:54] Layla: No. Mm-mm.

[00:55:55] Nathan: And so it’s this very tailored productized service that is layered on top of the course. And- Yeah, talk about how exactly that structure, have you iterated it a little bit?

[00:56:05] And then we’ll get into the calendar.

[00:56:07] Layla: Yeah, there’s been quite a bit of iteration. Um, but yeah, the model right now is I basically took the same journey that the course goes on A to Z, and I said, “Hey, you’re gonna work with a human on this. We’re gonna start off with an audit so we really get to know you, and then we’re gonna question between A to Z which letters do you actually need, and what letters that aren’t in there, let’s add some numbers in there, too.”

[00:56:26] So we essentially built on our end, we have the fixed course, and then we have these kind of like modular add-ons that are appropriate for certain people struggling with certain things. Like, we have a key metrics add-on. Because if someone’s like, “We don’t track any numbers,” but God, no one ever does the important thing.

[00:56:41] We’re like, “Hey, let’s just, here’s a little system for how we can do that.” Um, and then we have a human beading, being kind of build your own personal curriculum.

[00:56:48] Nathan: Right.

[00:56:49] Layla: So it’s kind of like a college class in some ways where you’re working with a mentor one on one, develop your curriculum, then we’ll check in with you as you’re doing most of the execution.

[00:56:57] Um, it was important to me in designing this that we didn’t have to build a full team. Although if I th- if I thought that was best for the customer, I probably would have. Yeah. I would’ve just stomached that and figured out the way to do it right. But our fundamental belief is that when it comes to systemizing a business, it’s best done from the bottom up and from in, the inside out.

[00:57:16] So the external consultant that comes in is like, “Ch- ch- ch- ch- ch- here, I fixed you. Enjoy.” Yeah.

[00:57:21] Nathan: Right? Lasts for three weeks.

[00:57:23] Layla: Yeah. And the problem was I was that person. Like, I’m like self-aware enough to be like, “I totally did that.” I did that. Yep. I am sorry, but you did get $20 an hour, so. Um, and so we knew we didn’t wanna do that.

[00:57:34] And so we were f- trying to think, how do we train one to two people from within a company to be the powerhouses of building and maintaining a system, and then we just worked backwards from there.

[00:57:43] Nathan: And so what does your calendar look like now?

[00:57:45] Layla: So I mean, it’s gonna look a lot different next week. Now sales is off my plate.

[00:57:49] Right. But my calendar as of now, doing founder-led sales, having a few clients- Mm-hmm … and also overseeing these coaches, ’cause we are only six months into this model from beta to now scaling it up, and then I’m kind of on a three-month journey to get out completely. Yeah. My calendar now is on Mondays I have team calls, uh, team calls with anybody that I have.

[00:58:10] I’ll have a client call usually- Every other Monday with one of my clients that I have. Tuesdays I will have nothing other than content creation. So a whole day for YouTube or writing, I’m writing my first book. Like, that’s a lot of work. Yep. Um, and then Wednesday I have sales calls in the morning. So I’ll usually have eight calls a week at this point that I’ll squeeze in there somehow.

[00:58:30] Um, so that’ll usually be my Wednesday mornings. Wednesday afternoon is usually a second client call, ’cause I have a few active clients right now at that tier. Thursday is more sales calls, and then actually getting work done. Turns out you still have to do that. Yep. Um, supporting the coaches who are supporting all of the rest of the clients, since they’re c- all a few months in, has been, um, a l- like an hour a week I would say.

[00:58:54] And then on Fridays I have, uh, usually creative work again. So I try not to book any calls. I might sneak a sales call in there if I need to in the morning, but otherwise it’s working on the book. Um, that’s taking, you know, six to eight hours a week.

[00:59:07] Nathan: Yeah, so even running that services model, you have a lot of control of your time.

[00:59:10] Now, I do wanna call out that … Oh, where were you gonna go?

[00:59:13] Layla: I was gonna say, I, I force myself to keep control of my time. Right. I don’t think I have control. I keep control of it. Right. ‘Cause I think by default I would not.

[00:59:20] Nathan: Yeah. What are some of the things that, that- You know, the boundaries of the rules that you have in place to keep control of your time.

[00:59:27] Layla: Sales calls can only get booked on two days a week, and they’re all back to back to back to back to back.

[00:59:32] Nathan: Are they 20 minutes, 30 minutes? What’s the-

[00:59:33] Layla: They’re 30 minutes right now. Okay. And I just back to back to back to back.

[00:59:37] Nathan: Just roll one, one to the next.

[00:59:39] Layla: Pretty much, yeah. It’s a good excuse to get off the call on time.

[00:59:42] Nathan: Right. Well, and then your AI note-taker can- … handle the, those things- Yeah … and then you can batch your follow-up at the end.

[00:59:47] Layla: Exactly. Exactly. So, and that’s a compromise, right? Salespeople are like, “Well, you shouldn’t do that. Should be right away. You should follow up right away.” I’m like, “I’m okay with leaving that on the table if it means I get all of Tuesday and most of Friday-

[00:59:59] Nathan: Right

[00:59:59] Layla: to work, to do the real work.” ‘

[01:00:01] Nathan: Cause what you’re talking about, some of the, you know, doing almost 100 calls last month, right? Yeah, that,

[01:00:04] Layla: that was a crazy month. Yeah.

[01:00:06] Nathan: So that was, you know, that’s over 20 a week.

[01:00:08] Layla: Yes.

[01:00:09] Nathan: And so you’re, you’re fitting in really a lot of calls.

[01:00:11] Layla: That, I will say, during that period, that did not get the s- as spacious of a calendar.

[01:00:16] It was very much just I had three hours for YouTube. I somehow had time for book in there. It was, like, three hours for book. But it, those were long days. Yeah. I, I would not… That was not intentional to get through that journey, but I learned a lot from it, and-

[01:00:30] Nathan: That is a sprint for a short season.

[01:00:32] Layla: Yeah. It was a seasonal thing.

[01:00:34] We… Funny story: we ha- we were intending to hire a sales position before that. The day before they were supposed to start after a two-week delay, they’re like, “Actually, I decided sales isn’t for me.” Yes. And so we had our, our, our webinar go live a day or two later from that, and I was like, “All right. Well, 100 calls coming my way.”

[01:00:50] Nathan: We had someone years ago, uh, his name is Neil. I’m gonna just call him out on the episode. And, uh- Hi,

[01:00:57] Layla: Neil. …

[01:00:57] Nathan: who joined the company on a Monday.

[01:01:00] Layla: Oh, no.

[01:01:00] Nathan: Quit on Friday- Oh … and was just like, “Actually, I just wanna be in an entirely different industry.”

[01:01:05] Layla: Yep.

[01:01:05] Nathan: And you’re like, “What?” And so now we call it pulling a Neil.

[01:01:08] Layla: Okay. Pulling a Neil. That’s… Yeah, so I had, I had someone pull a Neil. And you know what? Good for you. Like, I’d rather you tell me now- Right … it’s

[01:01:13] Nathan: better. Clarity now is better than later.

[01:01:15] Layla: Way better, but-

[01:01:15] Nathan: Like, I don’t wanna spend three months training, like, onboarding and everything and be like, “Actually, I’m out.”

[01:01:19] Yeah. Right? But it’s just like, where everyone’s just like, “What?”

[01:01:22] Layla: Yeah.

[01:01:22] Nathan: Where did, where did

[01:01:23] Layla: that happen?

[01:01:24] Nathan: Okay, so if someone were to make this jump, right? They’re, they’re selling courses probably in a B2B-type setting or they’re, or a business environment or that sort of thing, and they’re like- Huh, maybe I should layer on a services element to it

[01:01:38] Layla: Yeah

[01:01:39] Nathan: What are some of the mistakes that you think they might be likely to make?

[01:01:43] Layla: Over-complicating.

[01:01:45] Nathan: Okay

[01:01:46] Layla: I think that’s the number one thing. We kind of over-correct, like I did. You know, when I went from services to product, I went so far, into, like, super product, memberships. Right It’s the hardest product to really do well. Um, and so service is the same way. You know, we get into services, we’re like, “Oh, my God, done-for-you-agency.

[01:02:03] Hire 14 people. We’ll do everything for you. You don’t have to do a thing.” I think that’s the first one. Um, I think the second mistake is making it about yourself first. Uh, yes, that’s part of it, but ultimately I think the reason I finally got the model that worked after hard freaking times trying to figure it out, it was not easy, um, and it was not linear, was ’cause I, like, actually confessed to really listening.

[01:02:26] I got on calls with my audience, which I know Tim, you know, our mutual friend, great video I’m sure we can link up top. Um-

[01:02:33] Nathan: Yeah, his epis- he’s g- ha- I think had three episodes on my show, so…

[01:02:36] Layla: Okay

[01:02:36] Nathan: Lots of great appearances

[01:02:37] Layla: Yeah. Talking with your customer and building what they actually need and what will serve the actual result, rather than, “Hmm, I’m afraid of hiring a team, so I guess I’m just gonna have VIP days.”

[01:02:48] Like, that’s lazy, self-serving. It’s problematic for you. It’s problematic for your business. You’re not building yourself a job. You’re trying to build a machine, and your, your spot in it is temporary. And so don’t be selfish. Get some more money.

[01:03:02] Nathan: Yeah.

[01:03:04] Layla: It’s, it’s a win-win.

[01:03:05] Nathan: Those are some good mistakes. Any others?

[01:03:07] Layla: Undercharging.

[01:03:08] Nathan: Oh, yeah, ’cause if it involves some of your time, you have to be charging enough. Otherwise- Yeah … you’re going to, you know, really cap your revenue.

[01:03:16] Layla: Oh, my gosh, yeah. Well, a lot of people don’t track their time at all, and they’re like, “Ugh, tracking time. What am I, a lawyer? Ugh.” I’m not saying six-minute increments, although, like, why not?

[01:03:26] Um- I think tracking your time is phenomenally helpful if you do services. I would almost say it’s like it’s a requirement in some ways because a lot of people don’t realize what their costs actually are. They’re like, “Well, I host a call for one hour. I charge 500 bucks for it. I’m doing great.” And then you’re like, “Oh, wait, but I actually prep for an hour beforehand.”

[01:03:46] Right. “I send a recap after, and three months later I send them a gift bag, and that cost me $15.” And all of a sudden you’re like, “Oh, I’m actually getting $70 an hour, and I also still have to acquire this customer, which costs me 20% in some way, which is another 60 bucks off.” You know what I mean? And we’re not considering that in there because we’re used to courses where our costs are nothing other than marketing.

[01:04:05] Nathan: So I’m gonna dive in on lead generation, because that’s something that you seem to have down pretty well. If you’re doing 100 sales calls in a month or have the ability to do that-

[01:04:12] Layla: Yeah …

[01:04:13] Nathan: then clearly something between YouTube and the email list and the calls is going well. What’s making the biggest impact on lead generation?

[01:04:19] Layla: Well, I will say, you know, full disclaimer, 100 sales calls was a spike- Yeah … around having a webinar and hosting it live. Theoretically, we could replicate that if I was willing to do more live webinars, but again, I’m w- willing to leave money on the table in so many ways. Um, what’s making the biggest impact on lead generation?

[01:04:36] Ignoring having one-on-one services. That’s the number one indicator, is going from buy our course or bust to you can work with us one-on-one means we have a giant backlog of people who had no access, and now the door is cracked open. That’s huge. I mean, that’s, that’s, that’s a lot of value. And because of that, we’re able…

[01:04:57] Most of our calls come from our Kit automations. And, you know, Kit, whatever tool you’re using, whatever, it, it’s just automated sequences that we have one that’s a boomerang that we add everyone into. Every 90 days, they get an invitation to book a call endlessly.

[01:05:13] Nathan: Mm.

[01:05:13] Layla: They never leave. They can unsubscribe if they want to, but they will forever be invited to book a call, warning, uh, until you either book a call or buy something that makes you disqualified for the call.

[01:05:24] The other thing I would say is YouTube, right? Like, I’ve picked one platform. I would like to say I’m getting good at it. I’m not there yet. For reference, how

[01:05:33] Nathan: many subscribers do you have on YouTube? I

[01:05:34] Layla: think it’s, like, 150,000. Okay. On B2B business processing. Oh, yeah. So, you know, the numbers aren’t quite comparable to the, the sexier topics perhaps.

[01:05:44] Nathan: Well, it’s one of those things that people often reali- you know, if you’re in food and recipes and it’s like, “Oh, I got a million followers on Instagram,” like, that is a, a hard thing to do.

[01:05:52] Layla: Yeah.

[01:05:53] Nathan: But it’s way harder to do it in, like, a, a niche. Business processes or marketing or, or that sort of- Let’s

[01:05:58] Layla: talk about SOPs.

[01:05:59] Yeah.

[01:06:00] Nathan: Yeah, exactly.

[01:06:01] Layla: Yeah.

[01:06:01] Nathan: It’s a different, a different thing. And so what’s made the biggest difference in growing on YouTube and getting to that 150,000

[01:06:09] Layla: subscribers? So, what got me here got me there- … or will get me there. It’s been the same thing the whole time- Mm-hmm … of customer or lead questions generating the next video.

[01:06:20] So I, you know, my YouTube strategy’s very simple. I don’t really know what I’m doing. I just take a question or a prompt. I have now a YouTube agency that I’ve, like, invested in. Like, “Hey, help me with the packaging ’cause I know- Yeah … I suck at that. I’m gonna be, like, very literal and you need to make it sexy.”

[01:06:36] Um, so they make it sexy, and then I film the sandwich. They got the bread, I fill it in. Yep. Um, and the way I film, how I go about that is I usually take a few bullet points of, like, here are the things I wanna make sure you know by the end, and then I just talk. And that’s how I make- Yeah … a YouTube video.

[01:06:53] Nathan: And then are you going to a lead magnet, a call to action in some way? Ah.

[01:06:57] Layla: That part. That does seem important. So yeah, I have some rules around this that I’ve kinda built over the years, ’cause I like numbers. So in the first 20 seconds, I need to make sure that I mention kinda the promise of the video, and I have a- two hooks, the opening hook and then the hook to the first intro.

[01:07:12] In the first intro section, around 30% into the video, I wanna have a first call to action of some kind. So this is like, you know, “Tip number one is make sure you eat sushi every day. By the way, if you want my sushi recipe pack, it’s in the description below, but let’s move on.” So I’ll do something like that.

[01:07:26] I don’t do anything with sushi. Right. It’s just on the mind now. But that would be an example in the very beginning of the video, and then I will also do that again at the end. What I find myself doing more often these days is actually having multiple call to actions. So, um, the way I do this is usually naturally.

[01:07:41] We’ve done 700 videos, um, 450 or so of long-form YouTube, and I remember pretty much every one. Mm-hmm. I don’t remember their names, ’cause now they’re all packaged to be sexy, but I’ll just say, like, “Yep, and we have a video on, uh, the best business model for your personality type up here.” Um, and I will just link up two hands, ’cause I never remember which side the cameras flip to, and that’s how I’ll do it.

[01:08:05] So I’ll link to other videos and I’ll link to at least two call to action, but oftentimes three or four in a 15-minute video. Uh, it’s the first link in the description. So it shows up before the preview, the read more. First pinned comment. None of this I do, by the way. Yeah. It’s just our process. Um, we send it out to our newsletter pretty m- immediately upon publishing with, again, that same feature.

[01:08:26] And all of our subscribers pretty much are from YouTube.

[01:08:30] Nathan: What I love about it is you’ve implemented a very sophisticated business that’s also very simple.

[01:08:37] Layla: It’s a…

[01:08:37] Nathan: Yeah. And so, you know, other people would be like, “Why aren’t you on TikTok? Why aren’t you on,” you know, wherever else, doing all these other things.

[01:08:43] And you’re like, “‘Cause YouTube and email work really well, and then I book calls, and you work, can work with me in these two ways, and that’s

[01:08:50] Layla: it.” And ’cause I did YouTube and Facebook and TikTok- Right … and I realized, I was like, “Oh, this is stupid. It doesn’t work.” I didn’t actually know. I just did it wrong and then realized I was wrong.

[01:08:59] Nathan: Thank you so much for sharing this entire story. I think it’s gonna be so inspirational for people who, you know, are stuck at the ceiling in some way and said- Sucks … “Oh, man, I’ve made this really complicated business that’s not getting me the life or the revenue that I want.” And you’ve laid out a path where you’re like, “Look, you can actually go from products, the pinnacle of all your time, and then say, let’s actually move back one ladder-

[01:09:21] Layla: Yeah

[01:09:21] Nathan: and let’s go to productized services and have the ideal life and business and more customer outcomes and all of that.”

[01:09:27] Layla: Absolutely. Well, thank you so much for having me. I’m glad to share this. I felt so lonely when I was at that block. It felt like, “Am I an idiot? Am I the only one stuck here?” And finding Tim and others who was like, “Oh, no, this is a real thing,” it was really, really helpful, so I hope it helps somebody else.

[01:09:41] Nathan: I love that. Um, where should people go to check out your YouTube channel, if they wanna work with you, any of those things?

[01:09:46] Layla: Yeah, go find me on Instagram… Just kidding. You’re not on Instagram. I’m not on anything. I’m not on anything. Find me on YouTube under my name, Layla Pomponi, or go to processdriven.co.

[01:09:55] That’s where we have all of our freebies, and yeah, people can find out how to work with us and book a call before I change my prices again.

[01:10:01] Nathan: Yes, exactly. Hey, that’s some good urgency.

[01:10:03] Layla: Yeah, there we go. There we go.

[01:10:04] Nathan: Perfect. Thanks so much for coming on.

[01:10:06] Layla: Absolutely.

[01:10:06] Nathan: If you enjoyed this episode, go to YouTube and search The Nathan Barry Show, then hit subscribe and make sure to like the video and drop a comment.

[01:10:14] I’d love to hear what some of your favorite parts of the video were, and also just who else you think we should have on the show. Thank you so much for

[01:10:21] listening.