[00:00:00] Ben: Don’t focus on pure personal brand play as your primary source of revenue because if I get hit by a bus, most of that disappears.

[00:00:08] Nathan: If you ever wanted to see behind the scenes of a massive creator empire, this episode is for you.

[00:00:13] Ben: My goal is to have everything that we’ve just talked about right here be optional when I get out of bed in the morning.

[00:00:19] Nathan: Ben Greenfield has been podcasting since 2008, back when only a handful of health shows existed online. Today, he runs a stack of businesses from rural Idaho with that same show still at the center of it all.

[00:00:29] Ben: Total revenue for the podcast, 300K per month.

[00:00:33] Nathan: We break down every dollar he earns up on the whiteboard in a pie chart.

[00:00:36] Ben: Coaching comes out to 90K, 40 to 50K. It’s around 40K, 15K, 5K a month.

[00:00:42] Nathan: This totals up to 500,000 a month. Yeah. $6 million a year.

[00:00:45] Ben: Yeah.

[00:00:46] Nathan: But the craziest part is this is just one pie chart. This is actually the small business.

[00:00:50] Ben: Yeah. It doesn’t feel small.

[00:00:52] Nathan: A seven-figure business, an eight-figure business, and then-

[00:00:56] Ben: Shockingly, this doesn’t exist.

[00:00:57] The biggest key is make it not dependent on you. Set the ego aside. Doesn’t have to have your face, your name, your brand.

[00:01:05] Nathan: I love that.

[00:01:05] Ben: This is gonna be super fun. This is the first podcast I’ve ever done where I can talk about this.

[00:01:12] Nathan: And I’m excited to break down all the revenue in your business. But first, you started podcasting in 2008.

[00:01:19] Ben: Uh, yeah.

[00:01:20] Nathan: Things have changed

[00:01:21] Ben: a little bit since then. Thank you for making me feel and sound old. There was easily less than 100 podcasts.

[00:01:26] Nathan: Right.

[00:01:27] Ben: And maybe, like, four or five health and fitness podcasts, which was kinda like my niche.

[00:01:31] And you had to, like, code your RSS feed and submit it to Apple and, like, wait two weeks. And I forget the name of the website, but it was basically, like, a feed reader website that you could feed your podcast into- Right … every time it broke, which was, like, every month. Because typically, like, the code was over 100 megabytes or whatever.

[00:01:48] And yeah, it was like Wild West of podcasting, and it started lunch break at the personal training studio that I was running. I would open up my laptop and do, like, talking head videos of strength and conditioning research. Okay. And just, like, push that out there. 14 episodes in, I did an interview with a professional triathlete, uh, ’cause I was super into triathlon at the time.

[00:02:12] And then most of the podcasts from there on out wound up either being interview or, like, call in or write in Q&A episodes. But yeah, like, twice a year for 18 years.

[00:02:25] Nathan: Yeah. That’s amazing. I mean- Yeah … most people who say, like, “Oh, I was podcasting in the early days,” are not doing it today. Like, there’s a lot of people who come- Yeah

[00:02:31] and go from the industry.

[00:02:32] Ben: Yeah.

[00:02:33] Nathan: But to stay consistent is impressive, and we’ll get into- Yeah … the business

[00:02:37] Ben: and- Yeah. I’m just stubborn and stupid, and, uh… No, but, but I mean, like, yeah, we were even talking before, like, I, I… Like, it’s my favorite thing. Mm-hmm. Like, I get to either read a book and know that I get to talk to the author of the book, who normally otherwise would never have given me the time of day for an hour- Right

[00:02:52] and a half. Rinse, wash, and repeat for some, like, physiologist or coach or therapist or whatever. Um, and yeah, you talk to super interesting people.

[00:03:00] Nathan: And so- What was revenue like in the, those early days? Like, do you remember-

[00:03:03] Ben: Like revenue of the product?

[00:03:04] Nathan: Yeah, and, and just of your, your online venture.

[00:03:07] Ben: Oh, well, I was doing well as a personal trainer.

[00:03:09] Yeah. I was making, like, a little over $100,000- Mm-hmm … as a personal trainer running these two gyms, mostly with, like, group coaching.

[00:03:16] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:03:16] Ben: It was just training, right? No supplement sales or anything like that. But basically, all of my training was kinda SaaS-based, so people would sign up for a monthly program with me.

[00:03:26] Yeah. They would get X number of visits, and they’d get group coaching. And so I- Was doing okay as a personal trainer, but again, like working a lot of hours. And then leading up to this triathlon training program that I had made, I was maybe making another, like, maybe like 60 to 70 bucks a week on, like, online book sales with this Shape 21 was the name of this one.

[00:03:51] So I had the Ironman race week, launch week, where I was actually racing, and so I was new on X, formerly Twitter back in the day, and I mean, I went as far as, like, pre-scheduled tweets like, “Hey, I’m coming out of the water right now. Big smile on my face,” you know? And, “I used my Triathlon Dominator program,” you know, to complete…

[00:04:13] And it was, it was originally called the CEO Triathlon program, but I got a cease and desist from some company that owned, like, CEO Triathlon. So I-

[00:04:19] Nathan: Okay.

[00:04:20] Ben: I renamed it Triathlon Dominator. So long story short is, like, for race day and the six days following race week, I made about 48K in sales of that program.

[00:04:31] $97, uh, digital program, uh, 197 physical product shipped by disc.com in Texas.

[00:04:37] Nathan: So you made 50% of your annual income-

[00:04:39] Ben: Yeah, in like- … in- Not really in six days- Yeah … ’cause it took me like eight months to make it. Yeah. But, um, the idea, of course, the light bulb moment for me was like, “Wait, I can take my IP, I can put it online, I can do this in my underwear at home, and I could maybe step into a different chapter of life where my kids are literally twin boys about to be born, and I can actually have, like, a home office and do this stuff at home.”

[00:05:01] And that’s what I started doing. Like, I rinsed, washed, and repeated that program, which, you know, it had things like forum support and ongoing affiliate revenue based on my relationships with, like, wetsuit manufacturers and bike manufacturers and supplement companies baked into it. So the LTV of the customer went beyond the 97 or the 197 initial purchase.

[00:05:24] But then I continued to grow my list and I created the Marathon Dominator program, uh, a knee pain program, a low back pain program. I probably had like seven or eight different- Yeah … programs that I just started selling online as an online content creator. Had the podcast going at the same time. Wasn’t selling any ads or anything on that.

[00:05:43] But, um, yeah, a, a big part of, like, my initial exposure to just, like, getting sponsored, especially for triathlon and making a little bit of side money as an affiliate, was doing the, the travel blogging stuff.

[00:05:59] Nathan: So let’s actually put a pin in that now. Yeah. I’m thinking about the, the event that you went to where someone maps out, here’s everything that- Yeah

[00:06:05] here’s how the world works- Yeah … on an online business.

[00:06:08] Ben: Yeah.

[00:06:08] Nathan: I wanna jump up on the board and basically do that for people who are watching, right? And so- Yeah … now we have this opportunity ’cause you’re up for sharing revenue numbers and all that to basically give, pay that gift forward to a bunch of creators watching and- Oh, yeah.

[00:06:20] For sure … say, “Here’s what it looks like at scale.” Yeah. All right. Yeah. Let’s do it. So you have a few different businesses going on. We’re gonna try to simplify it- Yeah … a little bit. Over here, uh, let’s get into… We’ll just call this, like, Ben Greenfield life. Okay. Is that-

[00:06:32] Ben: Yeah …

[00:06:32] Nathan: that’s this world?

[00:06:33] Ben: Okay.

[00:06:33] Nathan: This is the, the content side of the business probably that most listeners would relate to the most, I think.

[00:06:39] Give me a sense of the audience and platforms. What platforms are most important to you and-

[00:06:43] Ben: Okay …

[00:06:44] Nathan: how many subscribers?

[00:06:44] Ben: Yeah. So let’s, let’s just jump straight into revenue and size then. Okay. So number one would be the podcast. Part of it is not because I’m good at it. I’ve just been doing it for so freaking long that it’s just, like, a very, very slow rolling snowball.

[00:07:00] I think I’ve got about 120-some million downloads-

[00:07:05] Nathan: Okay …

[00:07:05] Ben: total of that podcast.

[00:07:08] Nathan: What would you say- monthly downloads are for the podcast?

[00:07:11] Ben: 275,000 per month. That’s for two episodes per week.

[00:07:16] Nathan: Instagram?

[00:07:16] Ben: 450,000-ish. 123 on YouTube, thousand. Twitter, I think it’s around 150,000 now. Email is, like, like, a quarter million.

[00:07:26] Nathan: That’s a good sense of who we’ve got in the audience, or the scale of the audience.

[00:07:30] Ben: Right. Right.

[00:07:31] Nathan: Let’s talk revenue. Okay, so the big one is the podcast. Yeah. What revenue do you do on a monthly basis?

[00:07:37] Ben: Yeah. So-

[00:07:37] Nathan: Everything tied to the podcast and advertising …

[00:07:39] Ben: yeah, for Ben Greenfield Life, my personal brand, podcasting would definitely be the biggest.

[00:07:43] The podcast revenue would be pre, mid, and post-roll ads- Okay … throughout the podcast, you know, anywhere from four to six per episode. Yep. A newsletter feature in the weekly- Ooh … roundup newsletter that goes out once a week, depending on the package that someone signs up for, ’cause there’s different levels of packages.

[00:08:02] Sidebar ad on articles on the website, ’cause typically we’ve got about four long form articles per month that come out. They would also be getting, uh, social reels.

[00:08:13] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:08:13] Ben: Social story, so there’s the social media piece, and then, uh, they can also buy whitelisting. So they can take- Explain what you mean by whitelisting

[00:08:21] an ad. Like, they’re, they’re basically buying NIL, name, image, likeness, to be able to run an ad for three months or six months or 12 months or however long of a contract, I mean, advertising contract that they’ve signed up for. So because of that, the actual package that my partnerships team, which consists of two people, would sell to a sponsor goes way beyond just, like, “Hey, here’s our, here’s our CPM, our cost per thousand downloads,” and instead, like, “Here’s the full package that you get.

[00:08:53] We go way beyond just, like, selling a podcast ad for you.”

[00:08:56] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:08:56] Ben: So total revenue for that type of scenario for the podcast right now is at about 300K per month.

[00:09:03] Nathan: Okay. That’s awesome.

[00:09:04] Ben: Um, that’s basically for sponsors, for advertisers. It’s not like- Products I’m selling personally, that’s what-

[00:09:10] Nathan: And so that, yeah, that’s a substantial- You

[00:09:12] Ben: know, red light therapies, and coffee enemas, and all the- all the things.

[00:09:15] Yeah.

[00:09:15] Nathan: That’s that side. What’s, uh, the next biggest bucket?

[00:09:18] Ben: So when I was racing triathlon and doing personal training, my biggest source of income was coaching.

[00:09:25] Nathan: Okay.

[00:09:26] Ben: And I still do some coaching. So I coach a limited number of clientele, and then Life Enterprises is the holding company for Ben Greenfield Life, and Life Enterprises owns Triumph Coaching.

[00:09:37] And under Triumph Coaching, I personally coach eight people, and then I also do one-off consults with people- Okay … throughout the week. So somebody might hop on with me for 20 or 30 minutes or sometimes an hour to talk about, like, blood biomarkers, health, fitness goals, whatever. So coaching comes out to about 90K a month.

[00:09:56] Okay. And that’s either recurring revenue or a la carte coaching calls. That is actually an area that we are actively trying to build. Um- Nice … adding more coaches, scaling the coaching program. Mm-hmm. Uh, and we are adding next month group coaching.

[00:10:13] Nathan: Okay. And then as we come up here, what’s the next? We’re getting to some smaller slices

[00:10:17] Ben: of the pie.

[00:10:17] Okay. Smaller slices of the pie. If we really want to, like, rabbit hole a little bit, technically I have, like, Ben Greenfield Life, which is the content piece.

[00:10:24] Nathan: Okay.

[00:10:24] Ben: Ben Greenfield LLC is where I do, like, my advising, uh, my speaking, and my books. And so advising, speaking, and books, um, those would all be other pieces of the pie.

[00:10:35] Advising, that would be like literally a monthly fee that companies pay me to give them, uh, as the name implies, advice. Uh, that’s around 40K

[00:10:44] a

[00:10:44] Nathan: month. Okay.

[00:10:44] Ben: Speaking is, depending on the month, anywhere from 40 to 50K per month. That would mean like, you know, traveling and giving a keynote. Sometimes there’s like online Zoom appearances, things like that.

[00:10:55] But basically just, like, getting on stage, giving a talk, getting on an airplane. So yeah, speaking and advising fit into those categories.

[00:11:03] Nathan: That’s awesome. What are the small categories?

[00:11:04] Ben: They’re even more teeny-tiny pieces. I, under Life Enterprises, have kind of like what w- you could consider to be like the Facebook of health- Okay

[00:11:13] which is Life Network, which is a membership-based community where experts in whatever, holistic dentistry to biohacking to fitness, um, have content that they put out for people, whether it’s ad-free podcasts or articles or videos. That is mostly a freemium play, although some people upgrade to premium for access to fewer ads, and that kicks off around 5K a month.

[00:11:37] That feeds into Life Market, which would be more of like the Amazon of health, and that’s where people are buying like curated products. Like everything from like, you know, skin and beauty products to supplements to bars to powders. Red light pantless. And that’s like around… Yeah, so that’s around 15K a month.

[00:11:53] Okay. So, um- That’d

[00:11:55] Nathan: be the affiliate side.

[00:11:56] Ben: That’s… Yeah, that’s kind of an affiliate play that goes beyond affiliate revenue that might be kicked off from advertising relationships that are part of the podcast. Oh,

[00:12:04] Nathan: okay. ‘

[00:12:04] Ben: Cause when someone signs up for an ad package, right, part of their ad package would be, well, yeah, you’re gonna pay X dollars per month for running an ad or for whitelisting, but then we do get a certain percentage of the sales that are generated.

[00:12:16] Nathan: Actually, I wanna take a step back and just look at this as a whole.

[00:12:18] Ben: Yeah. ‘

[00:12:18] Nathan: Cause we’ve got both-

[00:12:18] Ben: Did, did we give everything? Uh, oh, book, book sales.

[00:12:21] Nathan: Books.

[00:12:22] Ben: Make a ton of money.

[00:12:23] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:12:23] Ben: How, how much money

[00:12:24] Nathan: are we printing

[00:12:24] Ben: on books? Yeah. Uh, I make around 5K a month on book sales. But that’s literally like 13 books, like all combined.

[00:12:31] Nathan: Okay, so we’ve got podcasts really all advertising and sponsorships- Mm-hmm … is 300K. Yeah. Coaching is big at 90K.

[00:12:37] Ben: Yeah,

[00:12:37] Nathan: yeah. Uh, and then advising and speaking are 40K-

[00:12:40] Ben: Mm-hmm …

[00:12:40] Nathan: uh, or so each. Affiliates would be next at 15K.

[00:12:43] Ben: Right.

[00:12:43] Nathan: And then you’ve got the Life Network and books at 5K.

[00:12:46] Ben: Right.

[00:12:46] Nathan: Yeah, there’s a lot going on here.

[00:12:48] And I guess- Yeah … just to be clear, all of these numbers that I wrote up here, they’re all monthlies.

[00:12:52] Ben: Um, that, that is kind of like the personal brand revenue with a little bit of that personal brand intermingled with-

[00:12:58] Nathan: Right …

[00:12:59] Ben: Life Network, which is like other experts, and Life Market, which doesn’t just rely on me to drive traffic.

[00:13:05] Nathan: Yeah, so that makes sense.

[00:13:05] Ben: Yeah.

[00:13:06] Nathan: So this totals up to basically 500,000 a month- Yeah … uh, which is about- Yeah … $6 million a year.

[00:13:12] Ben: Yeah.

[00:13:12] Nathan: And so that’s the, the personal brand side. Right. I wanna dive in on the, the advertising sponsorships, all of that.

[00:13:19] Ben: Yeah.

[00:13:19] Nathan: Because there’s a few things that you’ve done here that make it more interesting or more- So like, or more successful.

[00:13:25] Ben: Mm-hmm.

[00:13:26] Nathan: Right? So first you’re selling integrated ad packages- Exactly … instead of paying, like someone’s like, “Hey, I wanna pay just for a podcast slot.” And you’re like-

[00:13:32] Ben: Right … ”

[00:13:32] Nathan: We’re not doing that.”

[00:13:33] Ben: Right. You get basically like a rate sheet, and then you get a personal call with a sponsorship manager who’s going to typically have-

[00:13:40] Nathan: Mm-hmm

[00:13:41] Ben: often it’s a couple of calls or, or more to actually arrive on an ad package that works for your budget, but that- Yeah … rolls in as much as possible.

[00:13:48] Nathan: And that’s the, the partnerships, we’ll get into the team a little bit, but that’s two people on the partnerships team.

[00:13:52] Ben: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:13:53] Nathan: Okay. Two questions. When did you start doing the whitelist ads?

[00:13:56] And give an example of-

[00:13:58] Ben: Okay … how those work. And to contextualize this for you- Yeah … um, I didn’t know I was whitelisting until I saw it on our ad package, and I asked, “What is whitelisting?” Because I actually didn’t know myself. And your partner sales people said- And my partner sales people- “Let me tell you”

[00:14:10] well, okay, let us tell you what whitelisting is. So basically, people can take an ad, and it might be like an ad that they’ve already purchased, like a social reel or a social story or a social post, and then they can pay to like run that ad on their platform or as like a partner with you-

[00:14:27] Nathan: Right …

[00:14:27] Ben: on Meta, on wherever.

[00:14:30] They’re tr- usually it’s on Meta, like, like- Mm-hmm … Facebook. Um, and they’re paying a fee to have access to that for a certain period of time.

[00:14:38] Nathan: So like- Yeah … one that I saw recently was for the, is it Respire? The-

[00:14:42] Ben: Okay. So yeah, for, for like- The mouth tape … mouth tape. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:14:44] Nathan: Exactly. And so I’m-

[00:14:45] Ben: Yeah …

[00:14:45] Nathan: going through there, you pop up in my feed.

[00:14:47] Ben: Yeah.

[00:14:47] Nathan: It’s an ad run by them.

[00:14:49] Ben: Right.

[00:14:49] Nathan: But it’s-

[00:14:49] Ben: Exactly. Yeah … it’s your face talking about it They’re, they’re, they’re basically pumping money into that ad to run it- Yeah … but, and like they’re tracking whatever metrics that they’re getting on sales. ‘Cause you’re gonna

[00:14:57] Nathan: convert

[00:14:58] Ben: better

[00:14:58] Nathan: than- And- …

[00:14:59] Ben: some random Exactly.

[00:15:00] And I’m glad you brought them up, too, because- Um, we actually, and I left this out of the podcast revenue, ’cause I don’t know if it fits in a podcast or affiliate, but it’s interesting. We are doing more long form videos that a sponsor can… So for like 7.5K, I’ll shoot an educational video that is hopefully gonna bring value into people’s lives anyways.

[00:15:21] Right. Like we did one, uh, three days ago on sleep. I just had a video crew in my bedroom for a half hour in the evening, and that was sponsored by Respire. Right? So at the end of the video, you know, at the beginning there’s like the hook, “Oh, stick around for the end, I’m gonna give you-” Yeah … “you know, one final trick that, you know, you may not have heard of before.”

[00:15:39] And then at the very end I’m like, “Okay, and then the last thing,” and then you, you bring out the mouth tape and the nose tape. Right. And, um, so those are like long form videos, not like minute long social reels that- Mm-hmm … that sponsor can actually, like, sponsor.

[00:15:52] Nathan: I like that. And the other thing that I picked up on is, so, so someone would be paying upfront, a brand might be paying, in that case, $7,500.

[00:16:01] Ben: Yeah.

[00:16:02] Nathan: But then you’re also making money on the performance of it as well. Is that right? Where there’s some- Yeah … kind of affiliate revenue or what else for the sales you drive?

[00:16:09] Ben: Right. Because they’re running it with my link and/or my code, right? Mm-hmm. So there’s still some evergreen income that occurs.

[00:16:17] Yeah. There’s a few deals that we’ve done where the partners are just like, “Well, no, you know, if we’re paying X amount of dollars just based on our, our cogs or margins, whatever, we’re not gonna do the affiliate revenue also.” Most of the time we like to do the affiliate revenue just because- I mean, it keeps the

[00:16:31] Nathan: incentives along

[00:16:31] Ben: yeah, it keeps the incentives along and a lot of times, like, those affiliate cookies will be like lifetime affiliate cookies. So in many cases, if I’m signing a sponsor for 12 months, I’m really signing them for like 20 years as long as that code remains active.

[00:16:42] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:16:43] Ben: Uh, which is work for the partnerships team.

[00:16:45] I mean, it’s a pretty massive Airtable that’s like got all the codes and all the tracking and all the contacts and there’s like about 60 partners- Okay … that are really like the top 60 partners that we- Yeah … really focus on and we follow up on.

[00:16:59] Nathan: That’s awesome. Yeah. So in a moment I wanna get into- The two bigger businesses.

[00:17:04] This is actually the small business.

[00:17:06] Ben: Yes. Uh. Uh,

[00:17:08] Nathan: but before we do that-

[00:17:09] Ben: Doesn’t feel small, but

[00:17:10] Nathan: yeah.

[00:17:11] Ben: Yeah. It, it’s probably the one that I work the hardest in.

[00:17:13] Nathan: Okay.

[00:17:14] Ben: Yeah. And

[00:17:14] Nathan: I mean,

[00:17:14] Ben: it’s- ‘Cause, ‘

[00:17:15] Nathan: cause it’s me … a few roles and everything else.

[00:17:16] Ben: Yeah, it’s me and, and that’s also, like, you know, cautionary tale for any content creator.

[00:17:21] You know, if I get hit by a bus, most of that disappears.

[00:17:24] Nathan: Right. So what does the team look like? We, we have two partnerships people-

[00:17:27] Ben: Uh, so- As we focus on the

[00:17:29] Nathan: Ben G- Greenfield

[00:17:30] Ben: side … yeah, so CEO of Life Enterprises, um, who m- uh, basically oversees Life Market, Life Network, Triumph Coaching- Mm-hmm … uh, and the podcast, and the team basically ultimately answers to him.

[00:17:46] Although I’m the CEO of Ben Greenfield LLC, which is speaking- So the parent company … advising and books. That, that’s- Oh, got it … that’s my own deal. Yeah. That’s separate from Ben Greenfield Life. But any- And that’s pretty lean. I mean, speaking, advising, and books doesn’t take a lot of work. Yeah. And most of the people I work with are just, like, my EA team, essentially.

[00:18:04] I’ve got, like, three EAs, and- Okay … it’s me and those three EAs that are doing most of that stuff. As a matter of fact, if people from Ben Greenfield Life wind up working on Ben Greenfield LLC, they invoice Ben Greenfield LLC- Oh, okay … and I turn around and pay them. Yeah. So, like, if I’m speaking at an event, and there’s affiliate revenue tied to an event, and that requires work from the social team at Ben Greenfield Life to technically promote something, that’s a Ben Greenfield LLC source of revenue.

[00:18:27] Uh, Ben Greenfield LLC is just paying the Ben Greenfield Life social team. So then, uh, under the CEO is, uh, vice president. Um, CEO’s kinda archi- architecting, visionary, you know, new products, new businesses. VP is, uh, a little bit more in, like, the COO role. Um, of- Okay. So like a ops type? Yep Yep. And then, uh, there’s also a dedicated ops manager just for Ben Greenfield Life.

[00:18:53] So this ops manager is like Life Network, Life Market, everything Life Enterprises, and then there’s another COO who’s just operating or- I’m just gonna go- … managing …

[00:19:04] Nathan: ops times two.

[00:19:05] Ben: Yeah. So it’s kind of like two COOs- Yeah … essentially. And then social team is, uh, two people. Editorial team, like articles, captions, stuff like that, is two people.

[00:19:18] One tech person who is kind of like gradually becoming like almost like AI architect also, so that has been a role that is expanding in terms of, like, value and responsibility. And then technically there’s also one IT person. Okay. So there’s kind of like one tech person and one IT person. We’ll

[00:19:35] Nathan: just go times two.

[00:19:36] Yeah.

[00:19:36] Ben: Social, editorial- That’s a pretty good breakdown … tech, partnerships, COOs, VP ops. Yeah. That… Oh- You got 14, 15 people … sorry, one other thing. Uh, coaching, right? So there’s- Oh, yeah … uh, technically… I mean, if we’re not counting- Coaches … the coaches themselves, right? ‘Cause there’s six coaches right now. Mm-hmm.

[00:19:52] But they’re working as independent contractors. Yeah. But then the actual coa- like, the staff for coaching is three people.

[00:19:59] Nathan: Okay. Yeah. Three plus six. Yeah. Yeah. And anyone listening knows-

[00:20:04] Ben: Yeah …

[00:20:04] Nathan: yeah, the breakdown of those two.

[00:20:05] Ben: Yeah. Yep. Yeah,

[00:20:06] Nathan: so that’s a good sized team- Yeah … running this, ’cause it’s a complicated operation.

[00:20:10] Like, there’s a lot of things Uh, a lot of things going on there

[00:20:13] Ben: If you really truly wanna, like, bring in that type of revenue from, like, podcast sponsorships, you’re just, like, managing a lot of advertisers. Right. And they’re all in contact with you every single week. Yeah. And that adds up when there’s, like, hundreds of them.

[00:20:25] Nathan: How’s the performance of this going? How’s- Right.

[00:20:26] Ben: Exactly …

[00:20:26] Nathan: the timing of that? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that makes sense.

[00:20:28] Ben: Yeah. So that’s a big one.

[00:20:29] Nathan: If someone else was, like, on, on track

[00:20:31] Ben: to- Yeah …

[00:20:31] Nathan: build something like this, what are a couple things that you would say to them of, like, “Oh, make sure to do this part,” or-

[00:20:37] Ben: Oh

[00:20:37] Nathan: uh, you should know Yeah … you know, here’s maybe a mistake that I made that you shouldn’t repeat. Um- Let’s say I’m at a million in revenue, and I’m looking to scale to the six million.

[00:20:44] Ben: Well, one we already mentioned, like, I think ad packages tend to create- Yeah … a lot more revenue and value for the partner than just- Mm-hmm

[00:20:50] selling dedicated ads. Another one would be, a ton of this is probably related to some of the other stuff we’re gonna talk about in terms of, like, just don’t focus on this pure branding, personal brand play as your- Okay … primary source of revenue. Because based on other businesses that I’ve built, my goal is to have everything that we’ve just talked about right here be optional when I get out of bed in the morning, because there are other revenue streams that go beyond that.

[00:21:21] So a big part of it is just, like, think as you create the business about, um, you know, can I go to the beach for a week, or- Right. How dependent is it? … am I obligated to, like, get out of bed in the morning and shoot a video? ‘

[00:21:31] Nathan: Cause

[00:21:31] Ben: you’ve got- I would say- … Instagram reel

[00:21:32] Nathan: to make or-

[00:21:33] Ben: Yeah. But if we wanna talk brass tacks, another couple of things is, um, from a…

[00:21:38] Like, this piece requires content. Mm-hmm. And I went for a long time, like, in a very reactive, like, whiplash mode, where you’d get partners reaching out wanting a video or a podcast commercial or whatever, and you’re just like, “Okay, so when am I gonna shoot this today?” I have two videographers, and they live five minutes from my house.

[00:21:57] Mm-hmm. And they come to my house once, about once every week and a half or two weeks, and we spend, like, four to six hours, and we just get it-

[00:22:03] Nathan: Knock out a- …

[00:22:04] Ben: all done really well. None of me trying to figure out stuff with, like… Literally, like, up until, like, two years ago, it was like, “Hey, River, Tara,” my sons.

[00:22:12] Like, “Where are you? Grab the phone,” or, “I’m gonna set this up on a tripod,” or, “I’m gonna lean this against a fruit bowl in the kitchen.” And that was just… And it was super distracting.

[00:22:20] Nathan: Right.

[00:22:20] Ben: So batching content- Mm-hmm … that’s a big one. Um-

[00:22:23] Nathan: Now, are those… We didn’t list the… Are the videographers in the three? We,

[00:22:26] Ben: we re- You know what?

[00:22:27] We did leave a couple things out, and I was thinking about this. Um, not that we wanna look like total amateurs, but I’m gonna blame it on you- … ’cause you’re holding the marker. Yeah, so. We left out, um, podcast editor.

[00:22:37] Nathan: Okay.

[00:22:37] Ben: And we left out videographers. Okay. And that’s a total of three people. Those are really a lot of the big things as far as lessons go.

[00:22:45] I mean, we, you know, of course, from a lifestyle design standpoint- Um, I have so many boundaries, just like, yep. Yeah. Family devotions and family huddle at 7:00 AM, and I cannot be in my office then. And family dinner starts at 7:00, and, like, work is totally done by then. You know, typically it’s, like, family pickleball or ping pong or tennis or something that starts at, like, 6:00.

[00:23:06] So usually I’m out of the office even before then. Um, no calls or anything allowed on my schedule between 2:00 and 3:30 PM, so I can, like, siesta, nap- Yeah … test out biohacking toys, whatever. So all of that might make it look like I work pretty hard, but I actually, I am very, very much sold on the idea of having a lifestyle-based business, being with your family every day, having family dinner every night, like, getting your workout in every morning.

[00:23:32] So I’ve built a lot of this, obviously, very slowly, over a long period of time. Uh, and, um, and I’m super happy with, like, my day-to-day routine. Yeah. I, you know, I, I, I feel like with that team and having things spread out like that, like, it’s still, it’s still all pretty doable for me.

[00:23:49] Nathan: I love that. Okay. Well, let’s dive into the other businesses.

[00:23:52] Ben: Okay.

[00:23:53] Nathan: What’s the… Like, you have an e-commerce brand. What’s the name

[00:23:55] Ben: of it? Yeah. I’m doing that travel blogging, and I’m like a race car, right? Like, I- Yeah … in spandex, and I’m competing in all these triathlons all over the world, and then I raced for Reebok for four years in obstacle course racing, and I found that I could create a lot of value for sponsors by helping them sell their products while I was out racing.

[00:24:13] Mm. Um, some of those sponsors were supplement companies, and like, at one point during my racing career, uh, just like super nerded out type of thing that home schooler would do, I figured out how to, like, basically write out a PHP script that would allow people to submit their credit card information and payment processing on my end, and then get that drop shipped by the affiliates.

[00:24:38] Like, I had like 10 different companies just, like, in the supplements industry alone, just drop shipping stuff-

[00:24:43] Nathan: Okay …

[00:24:44] Ben: um, just based on a personal relationship I had with them, ’cause they were, like, getting me up to Thailand to do a triathlon or whatever. And I was kind of, like, looking at the numbers and realizing, oh, gosh, like I am selling a lot of supplements for a lot of people at like, you know, 10 to 15%, you know, affiliate revenue.

[00:25:01] And, um, and they’re all drop shipping it for me, and like, they own a lot of the customer data and the follow-up, and I think I could probably use my own knowledge of biochemistry and love for the supplements industry to just, like, start to do a lot of this on my own. So I took what was at the time called Greenfield Fitness Systems, which was kinda like the branch that I had devoted to a lot of this, this, like, sponsor stuff, and I started a company called Kion, a supplements company.

[00:25:28] Ki meaning like life force, energy, named after the Japanese kanji symbol tattooed on my right shoulder for Ki. A mistake made in college that wound up being a business. Um, so, so Kion… Actually, what happened was I flew a branding agency up to my house that one of my friends had recommended to me, and I’m not gonna call them out, but I didn’t like them very much, and I thought they super sucked.

[00:25:52] But one guy was really cool, and his name is Angelo, and I basically didn’t wind up doing much work at all with the branding team, but I offered Angelo a job as the operations manager- Mm … for Kion to help me build it and scale it. And he’s awesome. Uh, still is awesome. He’s the CEO of the company now. So, uh, he vested over, like, four years into about 46% ownership- Yeah

[00:26:15] in the company, which is a good way to scale if you, if you, you know, want a good operations manager or CEO, but maybe you’re bootstrapping and, you know, can’t afford to, to pay him a full salary right off the bat. So Kion is, uh, it’s super simple stuff. Okay. It’s like creatine and whey protein, and, like, amino acids are our top-selling product, and fish oil, and an immune product.

[00:26:38] But the, the idea is super high quality, very simple. We don’t want a whole bunch of crazy, like, whatever. They’re great products, like Athletic Greens or IMA or whatever. We don’t want, like, 90 different ingredients that we gotta go out and source newer ingredients for when something goes out of stock. Uh, we don’t do Whole Foods or, uh, like GNC or super stores- You’re all direct-to-consumer

[00:26:59] or anything. We’re all D2C, Shopify, Amazon, um, for two reasons. A, we don’t have to worry about shelf life and stocking and shipping, and then B, it becomes kind of a math game when you’re D2C. We know, we, we know exactly the cost of every new customer that we’re bringing in. Um, you know, we’ve got our own internal last click acquisition software that we built, and it’s essentially just, like- Yeah

[00:27:28] it’s, it’s math. Um- So on this- On, on very simple but effective products, so doesn’t get misuse. Yeah, like how

[00:27:33] Nathan: many SKUs do you have? Is it-

[00:27:34] Ben: Well, uh, fewer and fewer every year. Okay. You keep simplifying. Uh, that’s what I love about… So, so I’m, like, an idea man. I’m a visionary, and I’ll come up with these ideas for, like…

[00:27:42] or used to come up with these ideas for, like, multi complex, like 20-ingredient formulas. Yeah. We’re gonna go, like, the longevity formula to rule them all. And Angelo, you know, our CEO, he’s just like, “No, that’s a stupid idea.” Like- … he realizes, like, how expensive that’s gonna be- We’re Angelo now … and you’re gonna have like 1,000 people who wanna buy it and that’s it.

[00:27:58] And so we have I think nine SKUs-

[00:28:01] Nathan: Oh,

[00:28:01] Ben: wow … right now.

[00:28:02] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:28:02] Ben: Um, and- It’s a very lean business … we have literally considered going down as low as one SKU.

[00:28:07] Nathan: Mm.

[00:28:07] Ben: Like aminos outsells everything 10X, just essential amino acids. It’s kinda like our wedge for the other products- Yeah … in terms of, like, people find us through essential amino acids, and they like them for, like, muscle gain and fat loss and satiety, and they, they do a lot.

[00:28:20] They’re like a Swiss Army knife. So yeah, that’s Kion. And Kion, again, same thing with SKUs, like pretty lean mean team. I think we have Nine people right now Okay.

[00:28:28] Nathan: Well, we’re not gonna share the revenue numbers for Kion, but it’s many multiples of what we have going on over, over here in the Ben Greenfield Life world.

[00:28:35] Yeah. Ki-

[00:28:35] Ben: Kion does very well. Yeah.

[00:28:36] Nathan: Yeah. Just so people know what we, we have this other, the circle that is so big.

[00:28:41] Ben: The moon. The planet. There’s

[00:28:44] Nathan: no moon.

[00:28:45] Ben: And you know, you know what we should mention though is like Kion, um, started off like with me as, as kind of like the l- like the rocket booster, right? Like I was, I was the content machine, I was the face, I was the name of the brand, and I think that can be useful for launching a brand.

[00:29:01] But back to the lifestyle-based business thing, um, and also kind of like the acquisition piece, if you’re building a company to sell, which is what we’re doing with Kion, and you have a key person issue, meaning like let’s say I was still the name, the face, doing all the content, all the videos, and they were heavily- Right

[00:29:17] reliant upon me as a main influencer, that’s, uh, that, that’s a, a key person problem that makes it difficult for whatever, you know, PE or whoever’s gonna, gonna buy your company to actually swallow when they realize, oh, if this person gets, gets hit by a bus, like that’s gonna drastically affect revenue. I advise a energy drink company that recently brought in Kim Kardashian.

[00:29:37] I’m like, “That’s, like, not the greatest idea” because, you know, not that she’s like a bad person, I don’t know much about her. I would much rather do like what we did at Kion where we’ve got like 100 plus micro influencers- Mm … you know, the mommy blogger and the rock climber and the triathlete and, uh, the dancer.

[00:29:53] And so we’re, we’re spreading out our influence across a lot of different personalities, but none of them are clutch.

[00:30:01] Nathan: Mm.

[00:30:02] Ben: Um, I’ve seen companies in the supplements industry actually get a pretty low valuation because they didn’t disentangle some, like, controversial or lightning rod-esque type of former CEO or founder from the company.

[00:30:16] And so that person’s out whatever doing blogs and podcasts and content that might be considered to be controversial, and that can affect acquisition or valuation later on. And then the other issue that you run into is that if I were to take all the Ben Greenfield Life content, like I originally did when I launched Kion, and use that as SEO to drive traffic to purchase supplements, uh, and that company gets acquired, then whoever acquires Kion acquires all my IP that I’ve been working on for 20 years and can do whatever the heck they want with it, in many cases, depending on how the contract is written.

[00:30:52] And I’m not just making this up. Like I’ve seen, uh, you know, one very popular supplements company get a low valuation because their founder is a controversial person. Um, you could find articles on my website about like LSD and plant medicine and sex, just like stuff- Right … that people would consider… Not, not bad.

[00:31:10] Like I don’t write this stuff to be offensive, but there’s just like- J- it’s just stuff. It’s not private equity friendly. It’s just real stuff. Yeah. It’s not, it’s not, it’s not PE friendly. Yeah. And then the other issue is I’ve also seen people who have had, like, really, really great content websites sell to big companies, and the companies just nuke the content ’cause they don’t wanna go through 20 years of content and scrape stuff to make sure it’s safe.

[00:31:29] So they just, like- They delete it all … get rid of it. And you lose it all.

[00:31:32] Nathan: So, uh, with Kion, you used your brand to launch it initially.

[00:31:37] Ben: Right.

[00:31:38] Nathan: And to-

[00:31:38] Ben: Almost like a rocket booster, yeah.

[00:31:39] Nathan: And then you’ve been very deliberate about how reliant Kion is on you for your time, but especially-

[00:31:46] Ben: Oh, yeah …

[00:31:46] Nathan: for your brand, for marketing, for customer acquisition, and all of that.

[00:31:49] Ben: You cannot find… You would be hard-pressed to find my name, my face, my involvement anywhere on the actual Kion website. You could find it- Yeah … on the internet that I’m, like, whatever, co-founder- Mm-hmm … or whatever. But, um, I’ve extracted myself quite a bit from the company. Even Angelo, like, he’s doing fewer and fewer podcast appearances.

[00:32:06] Nathan: Mm.

[00:32:06] Ben: Uh, just because, like, we want the company to really, like, be reliant upon, like, our product and how good our product is- It stands on its own … and no key person, and it stands on its own. Uh, and it’s- ‘Cause

[00:32:17] Nathan: then if you have a situation like, you know, think about acquisitions in our space, um, whether it’s Primal Kitchen or tons of these other ones- Any of these acquisitions that, you know, you want them to buy it for the product- Yeah

[00:32:29] the, the power of the engine behind it and all that, and not the fact that, oh, now you- Right … as the founder- Right … you’ve gotta come with it.

[00:32:37] Ben: Yeah.

[00:32:37] Nathan: You now are on

[00:32:39] Ben: a five-year deal. And there, there’s a certain, there’s a certain aspect of, like, cool kids marketing. Like, like, another, like, yesterday, the this big circle, like, uh, I just brought on Tom Brady, right?

[00:32:48] And so, like, he will bring in traffic as, as a big face, big name. Um, and for the initial phases of a launch, I think sometimes that can be useful to- Right … get momentum. Um, you know, I’m launching a documentary right now, and Zac Efron is the executive producer. And, like, that kind of big name is good, but I, I wouldn’t want people to view the documentary ’cause they know who the executive producer is.

[00:33:13] It’s like- Mm … that’s a little bonus that might get more people in the front door, but then I want that documentary to be popular because of word of mouth and its value to people. But you don’t wanna completely ignore, like, star power that you might- Mm-hmm … have on your team or have access to, but you don’t wanna make a company that’s relying on that.

[00:33:29] That’s dependent on it. Even if it sounds cool. Yeah,

[00:33:31] Nathan: or dependent on it. What are some other lessons learned as you’re launching Keyon and really, you know, taking the attention- Yeah … that you have and saying, “Okay, I wanna build a sellable asset- Yeah … on another scale within this business”?

[00:33:41] Ben: One thing would be, I kind of already alluded to this, but just, like, simplicity.

[00:33:47] Like, understand that you, if you’re watching this or listening to this, are probably just by the nature of you being a creator, like, a real visionary. If you’re going to build a company that’s gonna generate revenue outside of yourself as a creator, but you’re gonna use yourself as a creator to give the initial, like, rocket booster lift to that company, then try to have somebody at the helm who’s, like, holding the reins.

[00:34:10] Mm-hmm. Who’s almost, like, frustrating you when you get on the phone and you’ve got 10 new ideas, and, like, they’re really the type of person who’s gonna say, “No, diluted focus equals diluted results. You know, these are all, like, dumb ideas,” or, “We don’t wanna waste our time- Right … on these.” And you need to trust that person and let them just focus on- Uh, really the numbers, what’s working, and keep things simple

[00:34:32] Nathan: I’ve seen that a lot where exactly what you’re saying, where the founder and I do this, you know, more and more and more, and so you end up with all of the surface area of all- Yeah

[00:34:41] of these things that you’re doing, and they’re all moderately successful.

[00:34:43] Ben: Yeah.

[00:34:44] Nathan: And then really when you find, okay, this is what really works, let’s cut off these other things- Yeah … and let’s dump it in and, and-

[00:34:49] Ben: Right …

[00:34:50] Nathan: scale it up. You

[00:34:50] Ben: need someone who’s just gonna, who’s just gonna, like, destroy your dreams.

[00:34:53] Like- Yeah …

[00:34:53] Nathan: for the most part. Yeah It’s this one thing is actually

[00:34:55] Ben: working. Yeah, yeah. ‘

[00:34:55] Nathan: Cause you had… If I remember correctly, you had, like, 18 to

[00:34:59] Ben: 20 SKUs before, and you gradually- Um, we had more. I don’t remember exactly how many, but we had more.

[00:35:04] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:35:05] Ben: Um- And then you gradually narrowed it … or we had SKUs with lots of ingre- I don’t, I don’t think we have a single SKU with more than four ingredients-

[00:35:12] Nathan: Mm

[00:35:12] Ben: which is actually not that common in the supplements industry.

[00:35:15] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:35:15] Ben: And so when you see a product launch, uh, and they’ve got, like, a dozen plus different ingredients, and they’re on every podcast advertising, and who knows how much equity they’ve given away in the company to get the dollars for that marketing- Mm

[00:35:31] and for those products, um- You don’t see those companies lasting that long- Mm … in many cases in the supplements industry. So yeah, simplicity, concentration, focus, um, I think it’s, it’s a pretty good equation.

[00:35:44] Nathan: Okay. So now le- let’s go to this, this giant circle, um, which is- Yeah … a company that you’ve just launched.

[00:35:50] Ben: Uh, yesterday. Yeah. Yesterday.

[00:35:54] Nathan: Yes. Coming to

[00:35:55] Ben: you live. Yeah, yeah,

[00:35:56] Nathan: yeah. What’s the, what’s the name

[00:35:58] Ben: of this company? Make this company go. Life Enterprises- Okay … is the holding company for- What’s the name of the

[00:36:02] Nathan: product?

[00:36:03] Ben: Triumph Coaching, Life Network, and, uh, Life Markets. Um, and then we have Ben Greenfield Life and Ben Greenfield LLC, and this new company is called Life OS.

[00:36:17] Nathan: Okay.

[00:36:17] Ben: And Life OS is, as the name implies, kind of like an operating system, but it’s a clinical play. Um, this is gonna be super fun because this is the first podcast I’ve ever done where I can- Yeah … talk about this. We recognize a need, and by we, I mean me and, uh, some friends who are in the functional medicine and physician space, um, and a pharmacy company and, uh, our CEO of Life Enterprises, Caleb Applegate, also happens to be my b- my best friend and live like 20 minutes from me up in Idaho.

[00:36:51] That’s awesome. So it’s super fun. We, um, recognize that, um, people are really wanting things like peptides, bioidentical hormones, I mean, all the way down to just, like, you know, medical cannabis, like, all these things that, um, that can technically be fulfilled online direct to consumer, uh, but that are kind of dangerous, like sold for, you know, human research only, nudge, nudge, wink, wink.

[00:37:20] Yeah. Uh, or, um, are just, like, cheap imports from, you know, China, uh, you know, synthetic ingredients. Um, you can’t even make dosing recommendations ’cause that’s illegal, uh, if you’re selling stuff for human research. Um, and so that’s problem number one. Problem number two is that, uh, physicians, a lot of times, uh, have patients who have, like, wearables, labs, blood biomarkers, previous prescriptions from other doctors, peptides they wanna try, a fitness plan, a certain nutrition or dietary plan they’re supposed to be following, and this is all just, like, not concentrated in any way for a doctor.

[00:37:56] It’s all over the map, and a lot of it isn’t even HIPAA compliant, meaning it’s not secure. And- Mm … and a doctor technically is not supposed to be using, like, Claude, and GPT, and Gemini and- Right … feeding labs through that and using all these different APIs. Uh, that’s not even legal. Um, and then finally, there, um, there, there’s no way for a doctor to actually take all of that data- Be able to feed it through AI to get personalized recommendations for each patient, and simultaneously, in a secure manner, get that patient the pharmaceuticals that they need, the peptides that they need, that are actually, like, above board, sold not for human research, but for medical use.

[00:38:36] Yeah. So I realize that’s a lot, but long story short is we really busted butt for the past 12 weeks and solved all those problems. So basically, we’ve developed a, kind of like a B to B to C play- Mm-hmm … where we are handing a clinic, uh, essentially a tool, um, in the form of a website and an app that allows them to, in a completely secure format, keep track of all their patients’ blood biomarkers, labs, data, run new labs whenever they need to, get peptides, get hormones, get anything else that they need for the client whenever they need to, um, and be able to use AI if a physician is, you know, just needs help, you know, managing all of this.

[00:39:21] Custom-built AI based on 20 years of clinical data, and then we’ve also fed in your fitness, your nutrition, your wearables. It’s just, like, one platform that’s a single source of truth for a clinic or a physician. So we have been just, like, onboarding clinics right and left, uh, like, for the past four weeks at least, because shockingly, this doesn’t exist.

[00:39:45] It doesn’t sound super complicated. Um, it’s a little complicated, but it’s not super comp- Yeah … it’s not a super complicated tech play. The issue is that nobody’s kind of put all the pieces together.

[00:39:55] Nathan: In one

[00:39:55] Ben: place. Um, and/or had access to big enough pharmacies and big enough clinics and physician networks to be able to roll it out successfully.

[00:40:03] We launched yesterday with around 100,000 patients, uh- … and-

[00:40:10] Nathan: Just did …

[00:40:11] Ben: uh, a lot of- Significant scale … signing, signing up. We, we did a very small We raised about 500K, just friends, family, uh, and a few key influencers, like I mentioned, and that’s just for… Basically, all we need money for is initial marketing, and we had to kinda like scale the engineering team a little bit just to roll this out, uh, in a timely manner.

[00:40:32] And then, yeah, we’re- and we’re able to do what’s called IRB studies through our platform, meaning that- Can you explain what an IRB study is? Even if somebody is not able to just, like, go online or get a prescription from their doctor for a certain pharmaceutical or compound, they could enroll in an IRB study, uh, which is basically like a research study that allows them to try or use the compound because it’s being researched, and they’re just basically, you know…

[00:40:59] They’re, they’re a research subject, and that’s how they’re getting access to the compound that they need. So our first major IRB… I don’t even know if I’m supposed to say this on the podcast, but I’ll say it, and then I’ll get in trouble, and we can remove it later on. But our first major, uh, IRB, uh, rollout that we’ll be doing is for Ibogaine, right?

[00:41:17] Okay, yeah. Which is, which is for, like, opioid addiction and alcohol. Like, people will be able to, through our platform, get access to that, you know, through a doctor as a part of a, as a part of a research study. Yeah.

[00:41:26] Nathan: And then the business model on this is that you’re able to make money on providing the-

[00:41:33] Ben: Yeah, we can negotiate- All of the products

[00:41:35] really good prices because they’re at scale from the pharmacies, and then the… It’s free for a clinic. Unless they wanna totally skin and white label this-

[00:41:46] Nathan: Right …

[00:41:46] Ben: uh, which is a little bit of an extra cost. It’s free for the clinic to use it to operate their clinic or their clinics, uh, but then it’s a rev split when they get any peptide or anything else from the pharmacy.

[00:42:01] The physician shares some of the revenue from that, uh, we get some of the revenue from that- Mm-hmm … and then the patient gets what they need-

[00:42:08] Nathan: Yeah …

[00:42:08] Ben: in a safe way- Right … through a doctor.

[00:42:10] Nathan: Yep. That’s very important. Okay, so I wanna address, like, why, you know, why we drew such a giant circle here. What I notice about all of this is you have the first business, which is in the single-digit millions, you know- Yeah

[00:42:23] at a, at a very meaningful scale.

[00:42:25] Ben: Yeah.

[00:42:25] Nathan: This one is, like, well into the double-digit millions, right? And then… Or, so, so we’re a seven-figure business, an eight-figure business, and then when you… I think about the potential of Life OS- Yeah … like, that’s a nine figures in revenue, um-

[00:42:41] Ben: Yeah …

[00:42:42] Nathan: obviously you launched yesterday- Yeah

[00:42:43] so we’ll give you a little time to get there, but, um –

[00:42:45] Ben: Yeah, so if you look at, like- It’s an, it’s

[00:42:46] Nathan: an order-

[00:42:47] Ben: Yeah, if you look at, like, 100,000 patients, and let’s say average order volume is around 150 to $200, uh, per patient per month, um, and that’s- That per month part is very important. Yeah, that will scale pretty quick, yeah.

[00:43:02] Nathan: So seeing the scale that that can get to is really impressive. Yeah. Another thing that I’m noticing, particularly about both of these businesses with Kion and Life OS, is they have recurring revenue. Right? Where-

[00:43:12] Ben: Yeah …

[00:43:13] Nathan: you know, you ha- a lot of products people are buying from Kion are either a one-time purchase that’s a consumable, and so, like, this is great- Yeah

[00:43:20] I’m buying it again, or it’s true recurring, where they’re like, “Great, get me on a monthly or a quarterly-” Yeah … subscription.

[00:43:24] Ben: Supplements company, uh, yeah, y- you, you want subscription. Yeah. Like, that’s the direction you need to be going.

[00:43:30] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:43:30] Ben: Absolutely.

[00:43:30] Nathan: And then Life OS is the same thing where, you know, they’re…

[00:43:34] If the… Someone’s buying a product that’s working for them, they’re going to- Right … keep buying it over

[00:43:38] Ben: and over

[00:43:38] Nathan: again.

[00:43:38] Ben: Right. Exactly. And then the, like… Not that we wanna get too into the weeds, but, like, the beauty of that is that AI is constantly adjusting that, right? Mm-hmm. Because let’s say you’re on a prescription medication, I don’t know, for thyroid, right?

[00:43:51] Yeah. But then your doctor’s also running quarterly thyroid panels. Well, there will be a point where our AI, uh, which is named Ellen, might pipe in and say, “Hey, like, Nate actually does not need to be on this thyroid medication anymore. Uh, but his, uh, you know, his vitamin D and his cortisol are a little off this month, so make sure you address those, but we can actually stop this particular prescription.”

[00:44:14] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:44:14] Ben: So yeah, so the SaaS model in medicine is, like, different. Again, I’m not a doctor. Please don’t- Yeah … take this as medical advice, anybody. Um, but yeah, it’s, it’s, it’s a similar idea. It’s still, like, a SaaS-based model in that, you know, you have X number of clinics and doctors who are generating X amount of revenue per month.

[00:44:31] Nathan: And then in all of these cases, right, so launching Kion, it very much launched from your personal brand-

[00:44:37] Ben: Mm-hmm …

[00:44:37] Nathan: but then- Yeah … scaled well beyond that very deliberately.

[00:44:40] Ben: Right.

[00:44:40] Nathan: Life OS- Your personal brand, it’s really your relationships- That’s- … that got you into this,

[00:44:45] Ben: right? Yeah, that’s relationships. That’s either me speaking on stage like I did yesterday- Mm-hmm

[00:44:49] to a bunch of doctors.

[00:44:51] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:44:51] Ben: Or it’s me literally, like, picking up the phone and calling a clinic. Or it’s me just having, um, you know, a specific conversation where, you know, just where, like, I’m, I’m going to be, you know, spending the morning with RFK on Tuesday.

[00:45:06] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:45:06] Ben: And I’ll probably mention it to him and, um, and then he might mention it to somebody, and it might wind up being a really good solution that, uh, that the U.S.

[00:45:16] government likes, right? Right. Um, one of the guys who’s running our company right now is in, uh, Qatar, and it appears that their medical board, like, wants to use this to run the medical system in Qatar. So, so yeah, there’s a lot of opportunities as far as, like, where this could be plugged into. Yeah,

[00:45:32] Nathan: I think what I wanna point out for, for creators is…

[00:45:35] Because I think a lot of them might be at 500,000 a month in revenue and, and they can see, “Ooh, I, I see a path to a million.”

[00:45:42] Ben: Yeah.

[00:45:42] Nathan: And here we mapped out, actually, that million could be six million.

[00:45:46] Ben: Yeah.

[00:45:46] Nathan: But then as you say, like, and that, that’s an incredible business, especially the way that you’ve designed your life around it and all that.

[00:45:53] But then showing like… And hey, this can be substantially bigger, and the relationships and the reputation that you’ve built can get you into-

[00:46:01] Ben: Yeah …

[00:46:01] Nathan: these opportunities on an entirely different- Yeah … scale. That’s something that I, I think a lot of creators should do, is to think bigger and realize the scale of opportunity that they have.

[00:46:08] I have an essay- Yeah … that I, that I wrote called Billion Dollar Creator, which gets into this of, like, how to take the attention and the influence that you have and turn it into these massive businesses.

[00:46:16] Ben: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:46:16] Nathan: But how do you think

[00:46:17] Ben: about it? If, if you want to. Um, you know what I mean, like, you and I both live in Idaho.

[00:46:21] You know, it’s dirt cheap to live here. Like, like, we don’t need this amount of revenue. I think some of it comes down to impact. Mm-hmm. Some of it comes down to, you know, especially for this piece of thing or, or this piece of the pie. Like, when I’m… I have, like, two and a half hours per day now of just consumptive activity, and by that, I mean reading research articles, reading books, preparing for a podcast, listening to a podcast, listening to an audiobook, to turn around and package that information somehow to make people’s lives better.

[00:46:49] Nathan: Yep.

[00:46:50] Ben: Um, which is just… Like, that’s what gets me out of bed ultimately, not to get super esoteric. At the end of the day, um, is, like, how many people can I tell, like, cool stuff to that makes- Mm-hmm … their lives better? Um, and so when it comes to businesses like this, I mean, even, like, Keon, it was like, I like supplements.

[00:47:09] I take supplements. Like, couldn’t I find better versions of these and take the stuff that- Mm-hmm … I consume myself every morning and make this available for people? Life what? Like, I like peptides. I don’t like it when my doctor is confused about what I’m on, or I’ve got, like- Right … four different doctors who have no clue, and none of them are talking to each other, and- And

[00:47:27] Nathan: none of them

[00:47:27] Ben: have access to- None of them are using-

[00:47:28] your miracles … AI intelligently- Yeah … or less than they could. So for me, a lot of it is just like, this is the stuff I’m passionate about anyways. Mm-hmm. And yeah, it does kick off revenue. But I don’t, I don’t think you necessarily, like- have to form, you know, other big companies like this that exist outside of you.

[00:47:47] I think the bigger message for me is like, if you do, figure out a way to do it, um In such a way that you as a creator who has been trained for everything to be about you and your face and your profile and your video and your audio could create something that exists outside of you long after you’re gone, that, like, the goal should be, okay, so how, how could I keep doing what I’m doing because I want to, not because I have to, when it comes to the personal brand of the creator standpoint?

[00:48:14] Nathan: Ben, you’ve built this massive business as a creator. I think there’s a lot of creators watching who are trying to decide, do I build an empire or do I build a lifestyle business?

[00:48:21] Ben: Yeah.

[00:48:22] Nathan: What would, what would you say to them?

[00:48:23] Ben: You could technically do both. So, so the empire piece, we wanna call the empire piece, like, all the stuff that’s making money while you’re asleep that you don’t necessarily have to wake up in the morning and pay attention to because you’ve, you’ve set up systems and delegated and created a team to run a lot of this for you.

[00:48:38] If we’re talking about the empire in those terms, I think the, the biggest key is when you’re thinking about creating something like that, that you make it, as we’ve talked a little bit about before already, not dependent on you. Like, set the ego aside. Doesn’t have to have, like, your face, your name, your brand.

[00:48:58] You don’t even have to, like, create, uh, a workflow such that you… Like, you’re expected to be on, like, the weekly meetings and a part of all the Zoom calls. Like, try to, from the get-go, create a business that, besides maybe a little bit of initial marketing from you, is not dependent on your name, your face, your brand, et cetera, that would allow you to, based on the revenue that it kicks off, make getting up out of bed in the morning to do your own personal videos and podcasts and everything either optional or not, like, a huge rush necessity.

[00:49:30] So my… I, I love my life. Like, I typically do not, besides just, like, checking in to make sure there’s no fires to put out on, like, Asana or Slack or whatever, like, I don’t really do much until about 10:00 or 10:30 AM, and up until that point, I’m with my family, I’m outside, I’m working out, I’m hanging out with my wife, I’m making a really complex, super tasty smoothie.

[00:49:57] Like, I have… I, you know, I ease myself in in the morning. I work like a horse with blinders, like, deep work from, like, 10:30 until 2:00 PM. Take an awesome nap every day, uh, every afternoon, ’cause nobody’s allowed to touch my schedule in the afternoons. Right. Uh, I catch up on phone calls and stuff between, like, 4:30 and 6:00.

[00:50:16] If it’s a busy day, I work till, like, 6:45. If it’s not a busy day, like, pickleball, ping pong- Mm-hmm … bocce ball, cornhole, like, all the yard games, come out with the kids. Around then, uh, 7:00 PM, it’s, like, father-son book club and, uh, family music and family games. And at, like, from, like, 8:45 to 9:00, well, I eat dessert every night, which is usually yogurt and dark chocolate and berries.

[00:50:42] I eat dessert while I look at my email inbox just to make sure there’s, like, nothing crazy coming up the next morning, and then by, like- 9:10, 9:15, we’re, like, gathering in mom and dad’s bedroom for our evening routine, where we’re all just, like, hanging out and talking about the next day, and praying together, and being a family.

[00:51:00] So I’m consistent. Like, that’s like-

[00:51:02] Nathan: Yeah …

[00:51:02] Ben: six days a week, and then I take a Sabbath day Sunday, um, which is pretty much off, uh, besides just, like, calling friends or whatever. But, um, but yeah, I feel like, like you, you could be a creator, and as long as you’re consistent and in it for the long haul, and not looking to, like, you know, become famous overnight, you know, ’cause I’ve been doing this for, like, 18 years- Yeah

[00:51:22] um, even before that, then yeah, it’s totally doable.

[00:51:25] Nathan: So what you’re saying is, if you’re trying to decide between a lifestyle business and an empire, it’s a false dichotomy. You don’t actually have to choose. Yeah. But you do have to be very intentional.

[00:51:34] Ben: You do gotta be intentional, yeah, and, like, you still have to work hard.

[00:51:38] And, you know, I, I say all that, but, like, if I’m writing a book, I won’t lie, there’s usually… Like, Boundless, right? It’s like 700 pages. It’s like the bible of biohacking. There’s typically, like, six months going into finishing a book, where I’m setting my alarm, like, an hour and a half earlier.

[00:51:52] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:51:52] Ben: Like, book launch phase, I’m up at like 4:00 to 5:30 AM.

[00:51:56] It’s just cleared for the book, and I’m an hour and a half less on sleep for those six months. Like, there’s, there’s sprints. Like- Yeah … there’s sprint phases, for sure. Um-

[00:52:02] Nathan: I’m in

[00:52:03] Ben: one of those right

[00:52:03] Nathan: now.

[00:52:03] Ben: But yeah, as a rule- … like, every day shouldn’t be like that, and I think too many entrepreneurs are just like, “Hey, I’m like, whatever.

[00:52:09] Yeah, Modafinil during the day, Valium at night, let’s go. Let’s push.” Um, and yeah, you just, you burn out.

[00:52:16] Nathan: Ben, this has been fantastic to see. One, it’s a huge gift, for the breakdown of how the business works, all of that. Like- Cool … thank you for shari- sharing all the numbers.

[00:52:25] Ben: Yeah, yeah.

[00:52:26] Nathan: Um-

[00:52:26] Ben: This is super… And by the way, I don’t get to talk about this stuff very much at all-

[00:52:28] so this is super fun. Usually people ask me, like, how to do- Wh- which peptide- … how to do a coffee enema. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, or whatever.

[00:52:35] Nathan: Um, where should people go if they want to follow the rest of your content and, you know, listen to the podcast, dive into your whole world?

[00:52:42] Ben: Probably bengreenfieldlife.com.

[00:52:44] That’s kinda like the central hub. Uh, yeah, you can pretty much find anything from there. Yeah. That

[00:52:50] Nathan: sounds good.

[00:52:50] Ben: Yeah.

[00:52:50] Nathan: Well, thanks for coming

[00:52:51] Ben: on. Sign up for my newsletter, which is not on the kit. Yeah.

[00:52:55] Nathan: We can fix that. We can fix that. Well, we gotta sign off now, because I promised you that we would play pickleball- Let’s go

[00:52:59] Ben: and

[00:52:59] Nathan: have a- Yeah … backyard barbecue.

[00:53:01] Ben: Yeah. And we’re doing that. Talk about lifestyle. Yeah. Let’s do it. Sounds good. Cool. All right, thanks for coming on. All

[00:53:05] Nathan: right, thanks, man. If you enjoyed this episode, go to YouTube and search The Nathan Barry Show, then hit subscribe and make sure to like the video and drop a comment.

[00:53:14] I’d love to hear what some of your favorite parts of the video were, and also just who else you think we should have on the show. Thank you so much for listening.

[00:00:00] Shawn: This is what product market fit feels like. We couldn’t sell it fast enough.

[00:00:03] Nathan: Shawn Blanc has run every business model there is: affiliate income, sponsorships, an e-book, a flagship course, memberships, and even in-person retreats.

[00:00:10] Shawn: What if we just do it as one day? The whole focus course in one day. We did it for, like, 10 bucks.

[00:00:14] We made an insane amount of money.

[00:00:15] Nathan: How much money did it make?

[00:00:16] Shawn: $750,000.

[00:00:19] Nathan: What are the other lessons that you take away from

[00:00:21] Shawn: that? Don’t be romantic about how you make your money.

[00:00:23] Nathan: Over the past 15 years, he’s reinvented himself in so many ways. He’s actually pivoted from the course that built his business to a new venture that he talks about in this episode.

[00:00:32] Shawn: This actually ends up leading to the biggest breakthrough for the business that I’ve had in 15 years. So it’s doing, like, about 100 grand for the year, and then I just hit 100 grand in a week. All of that came from the email list. It’s a crazy transformation.

[00:00:42] Nathan: When he examined the business to find what was broken, he came back to a much more difficult question: What if the thing limiting his business was actually him?

[00:00:49] Shawn: I call it the burden of opportunity, where these are a lot of opportunities, but if you say yes to all of them, none of them will reach their potential.

[00:00:55] Nathan: What would you say to an entrepreneur who has a lot of good things going on but can’t

[00:00:59] Shawn: seem to focus? When you have all those opportunities, you have to-

[00:01:02] Nathan: I like that.

[00:01:02] You’ll definitely wanna stick around for

[00:01:04] Shawn: this episode. You can get the same amount of work done in less time just by

[00:01:13] Nathan: Sean, welcome to the show.

[00:01:14] Shawn: Thank you. I’m so happy to be here.

[00:01:16] Nathan: So we’ve known each other for a long time.

[00:01:17] Shawn: Yes.

[00:01:17] Nathan: You’ve been creating content on the internet for a long time- Yes … just like I have. I feel like we’ve kind of grown up together as our businesses and, like, learned from each other and all of that.

[00:01:25] The thing that I wanna talk about most today is reinvention.

[00:01:28] Shawn: Mm-hmm. ‘

[00:01:28] Nathan: Cause to stay relevant as a creator- Yeah … for a long time, you have to reinvent yourself. What’s your approach been to reinventing yourself? Oh, my. And, and are you intentional about it, or is it, has it all been accidental?

[00:01:38] Shawn: I think on the business side, what I have found after 15 years, which I think you know about this as well, is there is…

[00:01:46] for one, there’s never a silver bullet. Mm-hmm. I’m always like, “Oh, this will be the launch,” or, “This will be the product,” or, “This will be the offer,” or, “This will be the new channel that will finally, like, unlock my business.”

[00:01:56] Nathan: Right.

[00:01:57] Shawn: And it never exists. Like, it’s never there.

[00:02:00] Nathan: I have never found it.

[00:02:01] Shawn: Right.

[00:02:02] Nathan: I have looked for a very long time, and I, and I keep thinking, “Oh, this is the thing.”

[00:02:07] Shawn: Mm-hmm.

[00:02:07] Nathan: For us, it would be our, like, a recent one would be our Creator Network feature-

[00:02:11] Shawn: Yeah …

[00:02:12] Nathan: which has made a big impact, and people rave about it. But, like, it’s been a marginal improvement on the success of the business- Yeah … even though it, you know, it’ll drive, like, 30 or 40% growth for individual creators, and like, this is the best thing ever.

[00:02:24] And it’s like, okay. But it hasn’t, you know- Mm-hmm … it was the, the breakthrough that I was expecting.

[00:02:29] Shawn: Right.

[00:02:29] Nathan: Uh, and it didn’t fully come. Um, and I,

[00:02:32] Shawn: I- And it’s like these, these incremental things.

[00:02:34] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:02:34] Shawn: Right? So every time I think this is gonna be the big thing, it turns out to be, well, it’s just one more step forward.

[00:02:39] Right. So I think reinvention of the business is always thinking, what do I need next? Or, what does the business need next? Or, what do my customers need next to continue to stay relevant, to continue to stay alive, to continue to have cash flow, to continue for me to, like, stay interested in the business?

[00:02:57] So it always feels like whatever’s working right now, I wanna really enjoy it. Mm-hmm. But know that in probably, like, three to five years, it will not be working anymore, and if I don’t have the next thing lined up- Mm-hmm … for what’s going to work then after that, then, then you’re gonna be in trouble. Right.

[00:03:14] And so that’s, when I think of, like, reinvention for the business, it’s always like- Do what’s working now and don’t sabotage that, but also I’ve gotta be thinking about what’s the next thing or what’s the next lever that I need to pull or whatever, so that as this begins to taper down, something new can kind of begin to taper up.

[00:03:29] So

[00:03:29] Nathan: if we were to go through, like, maybe four cycles of the business.

[00:03:34] Shawn: Sure.

[00:03:34] Nathan: When we, when we first met, I think you were doing content about the whole Apple and Mac industry. And so it was apps and tools- Right … and all that. Is that-

[00:03:45] Shawn: Yeah … that accurate? I s- I started… Yeah, so I started in 2011 as, like, an Apple blogger.

[00:03:50] Mm. So I was like tech nerd stuff, and I would review, like, Apple apps. Um, like the iPhone was young at that time.

[00:03:58] Nathan: And that was the world that I was in as well.

[00:03:59] Shawn: Yeah, I think that’s how we even got connected was, like, ’cause you were doing app design. Yep. And so you were like an Apple nerd. I had

[00:04:04] Nathan: a few- And, yeah

[00:04:05] a, a few of my own apps and- Right … then wrote a book about it, and so- Yeah … we’re all in the same world.

[00:04:11] Shawn: So yeah, I started as Apple tech blogger reviewer, um, and was in that space for quite a while, and then I think I saw your stuff with your… It was, like, your app design, your handbook I think- Yep … was like the first whatever product that you came out with.

[00:04:26] Yeah. And saw how that, like, “Hey, I took something that I learned and then I sold it on the internet, and I made a, a lot of money from selling it on the internet.” Yeah.

[00:04:35] Nathan: It made 20 grand in a week.

[00:04:37] Shawn: Which is amazing, right? And-

[00:04:39] Nathan: Do you remember from that, like, the first iteration when it was mostly affiliates or advertising- Yeah

[00:04:44] what the revenue was? Like, in 2011, 2012, like, the,

[00:04:47] Shawn: that- For me?

[00:04:47] Nathan: Yeah, was

[00:04:48] Shawn: that- Yeah. I’d been doing it on the side for a couple years- Okay … like, just, like, as a hobby.

[00:04:52] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:04:53] Shawn: And so I was doing only, like, affiliate stuff, like on Amazon, and then some sponsorships, like, and it was just a blog.

[00:05:00] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:05:00] Shawn: Like, I didn’t have a newsletter, I didn’t have a podcast.

[00:05:02] This was just blogging. And, like,

[00:05:03] Nathan: Daring Fireball would be, like, the legend in the space, right?

[00:05:05] Shawn: Yeah, like John Gruber was- Yeah … for sure, like, um, you know, huge inspiration- Mm-hmm … uh, et cetera, like looked up to him quite a bit. So- That, those first couple years, um, when I started, I went full-time in 2011, and I was like, “I’m gonna do a podcast and you guys can sp- support me for $3 a month.”

[00:05:24] Yeah. And it was like a Patreon style, but Patreon didn’t exist at the time. Right. And so you had to send me a PayPal, like $3 on PayPal, and then I would manually email you the link to my private podcast feed, ’cause you couldn’t do authenticated password pod- Right … so it was, like, so janky. But I was able, for that plus a couple other things, I was, like, 50 grand a year, maybe- Okay

[00:05:46] 55 a year- Yeah … for that first year. But that was, that actually replaced my previous salary, ’cause I was working for a church before that. Oh, yeah. And so I was like, “Hey, oh, this is working.”

[00:05:54] Nathan: My last salary was 63,000 a year. Yeah. So, you know, as an amount of money, we were like- It works … ”

[00:05:59] Shawn: Okay, this is amazing.” I was like, “Oh, I- it worked.

[00:06:00] I can do this. Okay.” And so then, um, through sponsorship stuff, like, it slowly began to grow and I, I think it took, like, about a year till I got to closer to, like, 100 grand a year. Mm-hmm. Um, I did my first product launch, kind of followed your path, like your framework, um, along with, like, Jeff Walker’s stuff.

[00:06:17] Nathan: Oh, yeah.

[00:06:18] Shawn: And it was, like, an e-book. And then that was- What was the

[00:06:21] Nathan: book?

[00:06:21] Shawn: It was called Delight Is In The Details.

[00:06:23] Nathan: Okay.

[00:06:23] Shawn: And it was just about, like, when you sweat the details, it’s more enjoyable for you as a creator, but then also, like, your, uh, your audience delights in the details when you also- Yeah … pay attention to them.

[00:06:34] So that was my first product launch, and that did really well, but I didn’t have an email list.

[00:06:39] Nathan: Mm.

[00:06:39] Shawn: And so I just literally, like, posted about it on my blog, and I think I made, like, five or six grand in a week, which is still, like, awesome, and then that turned into s- then residual revenue as people would buy it over time.

[00:06:48] And so I was like, “Oh, you can make more money by selling direct products to your audience.” So then I was like, “I gotta try this email thing. Like, Nathan keeps talking about- Yeah … this email thing.” So I built, like, a pre-launch list on MailChimp. Sorry.

[00:07:01] Nathan: Uh, I mean, I

[00:07:01] Shawn: built my- Kit didn’t exist at the time, so. I built my pre-launch

[00:07:03] Nathan: list on

[00:07:03] Shawn: MailChimp as well.

[00:07:04] Exactly. We, we were all using MailChimp. And then I relaunched the book a year later, and instead of doing, like, six grand, I think I did, like, 30 grand.

[00:07:12] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:07:12] Shawn: And all of that came from the email list. And I was like, “Oh, why, why did I just now figure this out?” And so- Well, when- Yeah …

[00:07:19] Nathan: like, you get to this moment where you realize, like, “Wait, I just made 50% of my previous year’s salary,” or- Mm-hmm

[00:07:23] like, the last job that I had. Yeah. Yeah. 50% of that salary in a week- In a week … or a month or, you know, and, and you’re just like, “I can’t do this every single month.” Mm-hmm. Right? I can’t do the same big launch all the time. But, like- Man, there’s a whole new world open to me, and i- it’s just, it’s a crazy transformation

[00:07:39] Shawn: It really is.

[00:07:39] And it’s fun because then I felt like I could build things. Mm-hmm. I could go into, like, a monk mode and design a product or build a product- Mm-hmm … and then, uh, and then come out and sell it, and then not only get the launch revenue from that, but then all the ongoing residual, like, over time. And, um, and it took me off this hamster wheel of having to keep my traffic up for sponsorship posts- Right

[00:08:01] having to link to certain things for the affiliate revenue. So stepping out of the Apple tech space, um, primarily for sponsorships and affiliates, and then moving more into, like, direct products directly for my customers- Yep … um, was kind of that next phase of, like, reinvention for the business. Um, and I remember, like, personally feeling a ton of, uh, like, imposter syndrome or, like, this fear of rejection- Yeah

[00:08:27] of my future customers being mad at me, which we can get into this later. Okay. This has been a huge, like, theme for me, was I was like, “They are going to buy this e-book for $9 and they are going to, like, come burn down my door and demand their money, and they’re gonna be mad. Like, uh, like, people are going to be so mad at me.”

[00:08:47] I don’t know, like, there was stuff going on, which we can get into this later. Yep. And so having to push through that fear of, like, the potential rejection or the fe- the negative feedback- Mm-hmm … or whatever it may be, and just be comfortable with putting my stuff out there and actually selling it.

[00:09:00] Nathan: What helps to get past that?

[00:09:01] Because I think a lot of people have that in the early days of, like, “Who am I to do this?” Yeah. Or, “Someone else would do, do it better,” or, you know, any of those things. Even I’ve talked to people- who are totally fine building it in front of strangers- Mm-hmm … but would not tell their family.

[00:09:14] Shawn: Yeah.

[00:09:14] Nathan: Uh- So real

[00:09:16] there’s this, this little unknown author named James Clear, who got to, I think, 100,000 subscribers on his newsletter-

[00:09:23] Shawn: Mm-hmm …

[00:09:24] Nathan: before he told his family that he was writing a newsletter.

[00:09:26] Shawn: Oh, my, that’s

[00:09:26] Nathan: hilarious. Like,

[00:09:29] Shawn: you know? Why is it… Yeah, it’s, it’s, it’s… ‘Cause it’s a different version of us.

[00:09:32] Nathan: He

[00:09:32] Shawn: would

[00:09:32] Nathan: not post to his personal- Yeah

[00:09:32] Facebook page at all- Yeah … until it got to, like, a crazy amount of traction. Yeah. He was like, “Okay, now I guess this is good enough that I’m not embarrassed by it.”

[00:09:38] Shawn: That’s crazy. That’s hilarious. I think for me, the big thing was I just, I did it scared.

[00:09:44] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:09:44] Shawn: And I was afraid that things would go wrong, and I just did it anyways.

[00:09:47] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:09:47] Shawn: And also, I would, like, in the early days, I would send, like, an early draft of the book or, like, a beta access to the course to people that I liked and trusted, and I would ask for honest feedback. And then they would say, “Oh, this is good,” or, “I like this,” or whatever. And so then I would, like, trust their feedback and like they’re, they’re being honest with me.

[00:10:05] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:10:06] Shawn: I still feel scared, but, you know, the only red flags are the ones that I feel, like, my, my fear, and I’m gonna- Right … do it afraid anyways.

[00:10:13] Nathan: Yeah. I like that. Okay, so then when did the Focus course come in?

[00:10:17] Shawn: That came in in 2016. No, 2015. Yeah. Sorry. 2015, and that was, like, my first big, like, a flagship course.

[00:10:27] Yeah. And I had… Because I was doing this Patreon podcast thing, people gave me $3 a month. How much, how

[00:10:31] Nathan: much money did you make off the,

[00:10:33] Shawn: like-

[00:10:34] Nathan: So- What did the MR get to on-

[00:10:35] Shawn: Yeah … the

[00:10:35] Nathan: $3 podcast? It got to, like, 40 grand a year. So- Okay … I guess, yeah,

[00:10:39] Shawn: so like 35- That’s pretty good … 35 to 4,000 a month.

[00:10:41] Nathan: That’s, that’s legit.

[00:10:42] Shawn: Yeah. I had, yeah, I had, like, 800 people giving me, you know, three… And then I, I raised the rate to $4 a month.

[00:10:48] Nathan: Ooh, big moves.

[00:10:48] Shawn: And, yeah. And then, yeah, good times.

[00:10:51] Nathan: I mean, that’s almost a 50% increase, so.

[00:10:53] Shawn: It’s true. It- it’s true, like, from three to four. And so I o- I did a series on that podcast around productivity and some of the- Mm

[00:11:00] stuff that I had personally learned on values and time management, stuff like that. And I got more listener feedback during that series on the productivity stuff than all the other shows, ’cause it, the show is called Sean Today. Yeah. And it was a daily episode. So I did, I think I did, like, 1,000 episodes over the course of a few years.

[00:11:17] And so then, like, I did this s- I would have to find, like… When you’re doing a, a daily show, like, you gotta just find stuff to talk about. So I’ll just, “I’ll do a whole series on all my productivity stuff.” Mm-hmm. And then that turned into, like, people loved it and wanted to know more, and so I’m like, “Oh, I get it.

[00:11:30] I could turn this into an e-book.” And then I’m like, “Oh,” I saw people doing these online courses where they were charging, like, 2, 3, $400 for the course. Right.

[00:11:38] Nathan: And that seemed very expensive at the time.

[00:11:39] Shawn: Oh, my gosh, so much compared to the $9

[00:11:42] Nathan: e-book. Oh, yeah.

[00:11:42] Shawn: And, uh, so I was like, “Oh, I could do, instead of it as a book, I could do Like, videos- Mm-hmm

[00:11:48] and do it as a course, and I could charge way more.

[00:11:50] Nathan: Also, I gotta say- Yeah … your stuff always looked so good. Oh, thank you. Maybe it’s, like, the, you know, always caring about the details.

[00:11:55] Shawn: Mm-hmm.

[00:11:56] Nathan: But I remember your videos about the course, and shot on a DSLR.

[00:12:01] Shawn: Right.

[00:12:02] Nathan: Right? Like, there’s a good setup there. You had depth of field behind you- Mm-hmm

[00:12:05] and then, you know, like, a, a light in the background. You know, like, some of these things that are very, very common now.

[00:12:10] Shawn: Right.

[00:12:10] Nathan: But everyone was doing stuff on their webcams. Yeah. And so

[00:12:13] Shawn: Well, I had a good… Well, and one of my best friends in Kansas City was an aspiring videographer.

[00:12:17] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:12:18] Shawn: So I’m like… He… Like, we traded, basically, for exposure.

[00:12:21] And it was like I gave him… I can’t remember. It was pennies, basically. Right. But he had all the gear and was testing out the stuff, so it worked out very well for me. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:12:28] Nathan: But it’s… Those are the ways that you stood out then- Yeah … of, like, leveling up. You know, I did it through, uh, like, designing, like, long-form sales pages- Mm-hmm

[00:12:37] that were actually beautifully designed.

[00:12:38] Shawn: Yeah. You know,

[00:12:39] Nathan: like I

[00:12:39] Shawn: remember. I- Yeah. I studied those pages.

[00:12:41] Nathan: Yeah. And so, you know, the same thing. You- Mm-hmm … you know, you could go and say, “Oh, if I have the right aesthetic and clearly a level of quality.” And it had, like, this zen-like feel to it. It’s like, oh, the Focus Course.

[00:12:53] Mm-hmm. You know? And so, and- Yeah … everything just fit. But it stood out because of the attention to, to detail.

[00:12:57] Shawn: Yeah. Thank you. So we launched that in June of 2015.

[00:13:02] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:13:02] Shawn: And that was, like, that was, like, a life-changing launch. Mm-hmm. And I took everything I had learned from the previous, like, The Light Is in the Details book launches, studied a lot of your stuff, had other friends who’d done product launches.

[00:13:14] Mm-hmm. And just, like, I teased it. Like, I just, I launched the crap out of that thing. And it did, like, 135,000 in that first launch week. And I had, like, my Apple Watch with the Stripe app, like- Yeah … on. And so my wife and I called it the bling ding, where, like, every time someone would buy the course, I would get a Stripe notification.

[00:13:35] It was like, oh, there was… ‘Cause we had, like, the launch pricing, so it was like 200 bucks as, like, the early thing. And we’re, like, getting these, like, blings. And so the last, like, day of the launch, I had kind of tallied up the math, and I was like, “Okay, we need, like, three more sales, and we’ll, we’ll cross, like, 100 grand.”

[00:13:50] Mm-hmm. So I got, like, some really nice whiskey out of my cabinet, and, like, poured two, like, little shots for me and Anna. And then we waited for, like, the third one, and when that sale came in and we crossed 100 grand, we, like, cheers- … and we, you know, had this little thing. I love that. But that was huge because- Oh, yeah

[00:14:05] previously I was, my business was doing, like, about 100 grand for the year, and then I just hit 100 grand in a week.

[00:14:10] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:14:10] Shawn: And I’m like, “I don’t know what to do with this.” Like, I wanted to buy a car. I wanted to- Right … like, move. Um, do I hire someone? I don’t… And I just… This was June. I just sa- I just put it in a savings account.

[00:14:19] I didn’t touch it. And I would just scroll, like, and look at cars, and, like, spend the money vicariously and, like, think about spending it. But I’m like, I can… I could do something with this if I, if I don’t screw it up.

[00:14:29] Nathan: There are some of those moments that as an entrepreneur you’re, you’re like, “Wait, what happened?”

[00:14:33] Especially if you-

[00:14:33] Shawn: Yeah …

[00:14:34] Nathan: like, if we were working normal jobs, we might work our way up- Mm … from 60,000, then get a job at 75,000- Right … then get a job at 80. You know, and then you get a raise and up from here. And we’d go from maybe eventually we’re making $200,000 a year or something like that. Mm-hmm. But we’d probably go on that journey over the course of seven, 10 years.

[00:14:51] I don’t know.

[00:14:51] Shawn: Right.

[00:14:52] Nathan: Right? And you have these moments as a, as an entrepreneur, and especially as a creator, because you have so much leverage, right? This audience, you know, the right product market fit with an audience priced well, all of that. It happens so quickly.

[00:15:04] Shawn: Mm-hmm.

[00:15:05] Nathan: I remember fairly early on building Kit and getting to, um…

[00:15:11] I’m trying to remember what the dollar amount was in the bank. It might’ve been, like, 200 grand, something like that. Mm-hmm. And I was… This was just 200 grand sitting in a checking account, and I’m, like, asking this group of entrepreneurs, like, “What do I do with this?” Like, this is, this is not- Right … this should be protected in some way.

[00:15:26] This should be all of this. And, uh, this guy who’s the CEO of Bench, the accounting company-

[00:15:31] Shawn: Mm-hmm …

[00:15:31] Nathan: just responded in Slack, ’cause I was talking about this, and he goes, “Hey, $200,000 is a very normal amount of money to have in a business bank account.” And I was like, “Wait. Wait, really?” But it’s exactly that same feeling- Yeah

[00:15:41] you’re talking about of, like, you get 100 grand from your launch and you’re like, “What am I supposed to do with this?” Mm-hmm. And it takes someone going, “Hey, this is normal.” It’s fine. “You don’t need to spend it.” Yeah. “You do, you don’t need to, you know, do all this- Yeah … fancy stuff with it.” Like, this is the new normal.

[00:15:54] Shawn: Yeah, it’s true, and it, it did become… It’s interesting how that becomes normalized then. Mm-hmm. It’s like, “Oh, yeah, that’s, that’s totally fine.” What used to be so much money now is, like, you know, the OS. It’s, like, our baseline what we always- Right … keep in the checking account all the time. Yeah. Um,

[00:16:08] Nathan: yeah. Okay, so you did the launch for the Focus course.

[00:16:10] I remember probably around that time-

[00:16:12] Shawn: Mm-hmm …

[00:16:12] Nathan: we had the whole Kit team go through it.

[00:16:14] Shawn: Yeah.

[00:16:14] Nathan: So you had this balance of, like, direct to consumer, and then you also had some companies.

[00:16:18] Shawn: Yeah, we started doing some public trainings as well, or, like, corporate trainings- Yeah … as well where, where-

[00:16:21] Nathan: It was really fun.

[00:16:22] We got a lot out of it.

[00:16:22] Shawn: Yeah. It’s been a blast. And trying to figure out, like, different ways to, to get people to go through that course. And that kind of has turned into, like, my main thing for the last 10, 11 years now- Right … has been that Focus course, figuring out different ways to get people to go through it, et cetera.

[00:16:36] ‘Cause the initial version with an online course is, you know, very few people actually finish the material. Right. And the way that our course works is, like, if you don’t finish it, you… Like, almost all of the benefit comes from, like, the final pieces of, like- Mm-hmm … putting it all together for, like, kind of designing your whole life and making everything click.

[00:16:52] So we started doing cohorts, and we found, like, you get a lot more people to go through it that way. But, like, even with that, like, reinvention of the course itself, like, the material itself has evolved and matured and changed and simplified. You know, in those early days, I felt like charging 200 bucks, I’ve gotta put everything into this.

[00:17:12] Oh, yeah. My entire life’s work, plus all these bonuses, plus all this stuff, you know? Or they’re gonna… I still had that thing, like, people are gonna be mad at me. And now I’m like, “How much can I take out? How can I simplify this down to, like, the most- Mm … basic, simple version?” And so, like, even reinventing the way that we’re pitching the course, reinventing the way that we’re delivering it over the last 10, 11 years.

[00:17:34] Mm-hmm. And so we got into the cohort stuff and, um, and then a few other things.

[00:17:39] Nathan: I wanna dive in on the focus aspect of it.

[00:17:42] Shawn: Mm-hmm.

[00:17:42] Nathan: Because I think a lot of creators and entrepreneurs are notoriously bad at focus. Even as someone who- I’ve achieved a lot of my success through focus. And almost everyone that I talk to, when they have a breakthrough in their business- Mm-hmm

[00:17:56] you ask, like, “What was it? You started doing, like, six more things?” You- And they’re like, “No, I chose this one thing, and I went all in on it, and I- Yeah … you know, stopped doing everything else.” Uh, and that’s where my success came from. You know, like, I tell that story a bunch of times. I know that from my own lived experience, and I hear it from everyone else.

[00:18:11] Mm-hmm. And I’m like, “Yeah, but I’m not gonna do that. I’m still gonna do a million things.” What’s your approach to focus, and what… Like, what are the fundamentals that you’re teaching in the focus course?

[00:18:18] Shawn: I think a lot of it is, like, for me, focus is what I’m choosing to say no to.

[00:18:23] Nathan: Mm.

[00:18:23] Shawn: And, like, removing as much of the stuff that I don’t want to take up space in my life.

[00:18:30] And so not only for the business, for, for me personally, you know, as a husband, as a dad, as a man. Like, what am I going to say no to? And then every- Then all the, like, white space now that I’ve created, then within that I get to choose what I wanna say yes to and, like, just hold, like, those boundaries for myself.

[00:18:47] Mm-hmm. So it’s true, like you say, like, with the, the business, and it’s like… ‘Cause for a, a while I had, I had other blogs too. Like, we haven’t gotten into this, but- … but I had other businesses going. And you and I were out to dinner one time with Noah Kagan in Chicago. Yeah. And he was like, he’s like, “You have a focus business, but you also just told me, like, three other businesses.”

[00:19:04] He goes, “That seems, like, counterintuitive.” I was like- Right … “No, it’s fine.” It’s fine. And I like-

[00:19:08] Nathan: He said counterintuitive.

[00:19:10] Shawn: Yeah.

[00:19:10] Nathan: The meaner way to say it- Yes … would be hypocritical.

[00:19:12] Shawn: Right, exactly. Like, what do you do? You s- you say you teach focus, but you also have, like, these other things. Like, and you… It seems very distracted.

[00:19:19] Nathan: When… And we all do it. Yeah. Especially because this is one of those things, some advice that I hate- Mm-hmm … uh, is what got you here won’t get you there.

[00:19:27] Shawn: Yeah.

[00:19:28] Nathan: Um, because I think that it’s, it’s… That advice is true 50% of the time. You just don’t know which 50%. Mm-hmm. That’s the reason I don’t like it. But an example where I do believe it’s true is early on, you don’t have any of the skills of- Mm-hmm

[00:19:40] product launching, copywriting- Yeah … design, video, all of this stuff. And so going through a whole bunch of reps of, like, I launched this product, and it, it worked. And I kind of did this other thing, and it didn’t really work. You know, you do all of these different things, and that lack of focus to have a wide range of products serves you really well because you’re actually-

[00:19:58] Shawn: Mm-hmm

[00:19:58] Nathan: you could think of them as, like, semester-long projects in college- Yeah … that paid you money instead of racking up student loans. Right You know?

[00:20:05] Shawn: Well, and they’re tiny experiments- Yeah … in some ways as well. Yeah.

[00:20:07] Nathan: Yeah, and but you don’t need to bring them with you.

[00:20:09] Shawn: Right.

[00:20:09] Nathan: And so I went through that moment of, like, I’d done all of these things, and I chose audience overlap as my lens to decide what to keep and what to get rid of.

[00:20:18] Shawn: Mm-hmm.

[00:20:19] Nathan: But there was, like, five things that I sold off one, I shut down three, you know, and then I put another on autopilot, and I think it’s a very normal thing to do.

[00:20:28] Shawn: Yeah.

[00:20:28] Nathan: But it’s great when you have uh, friends like Noah and others who will, like… Be like, “Huh, there seems to be some misalignment here. Let me call that out.”

[00:20:35] Shawn: Right, and it’s hard to say no to stuff that’s making you money.

[00:20:38] Nathan: Right.

[00:20:38] Shawn: And it’s hard to say, like, this is actually a distraction- Mm-hmm … even though it’s, like, generating revenue and creating… There’s… ‘Cause you can, as an entrepreneur, often you can see, like, the potential of that thing. Mm-hmm. Um, but I call it the burden of opportunity, where these are a lot of opportunities, but if you say yes to all of them, you know, as we know, like, none of them will reach their potential.

[00:20:57] And so deciding what you’re actually going to… What are you gonna shut down? What are you gonna say no to?

[00:21:00] Nathan: Right. So I’m curious, what would you say to an entrepreneur who has a lot of good things going on but can’t seem to focus?

[00:21:06] Shawn: I’ve been there. You’ve been there. I call this the burden of opportunity, where…

[00:21:10] Because as an entrepreneur, you’ve got lots of ideas, and you can see the roads and the paths that they’re leading to, and they’re all exciting to you. They kind of feel like you’re… Like, these are your babies. And when you have all those opportunities, you have to still find a way to say no to some of them and choose the one thing that you really want to give your most attention to, to allow that to be the thing that’s gonna grow.

[00:21:31] Nathan: Do you have a framework or a process that you use to say no? ‘Cause that’s the hardest thing for me.

[00:21:35] Shawn: Mm-hmm.

[00:21:36] Nathan: There’s so many opportunities coming. And I’ll even quote- Yeah … smart people like Richard Branson. Mm-hmm. He always says, “Opportunities are like buses. There’s always another one coming.” And I can say that quote, and then I’m like, I’m like, “Yeah, let’s get on that bus.

[00:21:47] And the next one.” Yeah. And I think as the team gets bigger, you can do that. You can run more and more things. But I struggle so much with focusing, and so I’m, I’m very curious, like, how you say no.

[00:21:57] Shawn: So it’s gonna be different for everybody. For me, though, the, one of the frameworks that we teach is, it’s just values-based, and then also margin-based.

[00:22:05] Nathan: Mm.

[00:22:06] Shawn: And so I’ll explain these to you. So values-based obviously is what do you value? Like, what do you care about, like, personally as the business owner? As well as what do you care about for your team or for the business and for the company itself? Like, what are the values that you have? And so when you’ve got two or three kind of core values that you know what they are, you can name them, they’re, they’re familiar, you know what they mean to you, then when I have an opportunity that comes my way, I can just…

[00:22:31] Like, initial, like, quick gut check. Does this fit, like, with my personal core values? If I start this kind of a business or if I take the business in this direction, does this align with what I feel, like, most important about, and does it match with my core values? Because if it does match, then when it’s hard and when it’s a grind or when it’s not working or when you’re really afraid, because it matches with your core values, you have, like, extra motivation.

[00:22:56] You have the energy. You can see the why behind it, and it’ll help you keep going. And then also when it matches and it succeeds, then you’ve built a life that you love.

[00:23:05] Nathan: Right.

[00:23:05] Shawn: And you’re doing something that you love that aligns with the core values for who you are, and, like, that to me is the dream. Mm.

[00:23:10] Like, that’s everything. That’s success right there. And then the other piece, the margin piece, this is really important for me personally. Um, I really want a lot of breathing room in my life. I want a lot of white space. I want a lot of just, um, opportunity to just- Be spontaneous- Yeah … during my weeks and things like this.

[00:23:28] I don’t like a lot of meetings on my calendar. I don’t like, um, being pulled into the day-to-day for my business. I don’t like having to do stuff to keep the business running. I just want, like, options, and I also only wanna work, like, 25 hours a week, and then te- be able to have slow mornings, and early evenings, and, like, lots of time off, and be able to travel, and take my kids places, and go camping and backpacking, all this stuff.

[00:23:51] So for me, I’m also always looking for what I pursue in the business, is this gonna give me more breathing room, or is it gonna give me less breathing room? Um, and if it’s gonna give me less, is it a trade-off, like temporary, or is this going to become the new normal?

[00:24:06] Nathan: Mm.

[00:24:07] Shawn: And do I see a clear path through to, to get back to, like, a lower, like, calmer lifestyle?

[00:24:13] So for me, those are the two things that I’m always looking for.

[00:24:15] Nathan: Is there an example of something that you’re like, “Okay, I really wanna do this,” but it… and m- and its value is aligned. Mm. Maybe it’s not margin aligned. Yeah. And you’re like, “Okay, but I’m gonna dive in and do it, and I’m, uh, you know, for a season, because I can see a path to getting back to the life that I

[00:24:29] Shawn: want.”

[00:24:29] Mm-hmm. Um, yeah, like a product launch- Mm … would be, like, something like that of, or like a new feature, or when we do, like, a training or, like, an event or a treat or something like that where it’s gonna be, it’s gonna be intense. Yeah. And sometimes it’s gonna be, like, three months intense or, you know, maybe six months.

[00:24:46] Right. Um, like I started a new business this year, which I think we’ll get into, and so there was definitely, like, a shift in, like, my time and energy, like, going into that. Um, but I saw the, the path through for, like, what I was trying to get to. Mm-hmm. And then sometimes there’s things where it’s a, an, a business opportunity that feels values aligned, but I’m like, it’s not gonna, I’m not gonna enjoy it.

[00:25:05] Like, like a YouTube channel. I’ve always wanted to start a YouTube channel. I think it’d be super fun, but I’m like, I just, I don’t think I want the grind of, like, having- Right … to be on that constant cadence, doing it with excellence, coming up with ideas, all that stuff. I’m like, I just, I don’t think I would enjoy being a YouTuber.

[00:25:20] Nathan: Right. Okay, yeah. That’s so interesting. You want the outcome, but you don’t want the process, and so that’s something you say no to.

[00:25:27] Shawn: Yeah.

[00:25:28] Nathan: Yeah. Um, okay, so let’s, uh, keep going in the focus course because so many people, at least my version of doing courses-

[00:25:35] Shawn: Mm-hmm …

[00:25:35] Nathan: was I would reinvent it, you know, or do something different.

[00:25:40] I probably did, well, let’s rattle them off, did the Apps as a Handbook, Designing Web App- Applications, Authority, Mastering Product Launches, Photoshop for Web Design, and then one on building profitable audiences. Yeah. So that’s, I think, in like a three-year period, I did six-

[00:25:54] Shawn: Yeah … different- And now you got your Flywheels course and a few others.

[00:25:55] Nathan: I have the Flywheels course. Yeah. Yeah, so that, I mean, that was just- Yeah … back then. Um, the Flywheels course is, like, born out of an obsession more than a- Right … um, a business. Yeah, so I think I did six in two and a half years, and so I was always making something new.

[00:26:09] Shawn: Mm-hmm.

[00:26:11] Nathan: I feel like you, um, who else is good at this?

[00:26:14] Ramit Sethi, uh, Marie Forleo, you know, with B-School. Yeah. Like, you get some of these people who, like, this is their flagship thing, and they do it over and over again.

[00:26:22] Shawn: Yeah.

[00:26:22] Nathan: Like, how did you… Obviously, it’s the title of the course, but how did you stay focused and, and keep, like, breathing new life into this- Mm-hmm

[00:26:29] every year for many years?

[00:26:31] Shawn: In some ways I didn’t breathe new life into it.

[00:26:33] Nathan: Okay.

[00:26:33] Shawn: So, like, it, you know, had a big $100,000, $135,000 launch when it came out. Mm-hmm. We did more subsequent launches. None, none of them ever matched that first launch.

[00:26:42] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:26:42] Shawn: It still did… I mean, I don’t know how many millions it’s done over the last 11 years.

[00:26:45] So still done a lot of revenue but, um, like the big launch. And so we did other courses on the side, like we did a course on margin and breathing room. We’ve done a course on time management. We’ve done a course on task management. So we did, um, add-on courses. Yeah. That after someone would go through the focus course, they’d be like, “Okay, this is great.”

[00:27:03] Here’s what’s next. “But I don’t know how to manage my calendar.” Yeah. Okay. Well, here’s a course on how to manage your calendar. I don’t know how to manage my tasks. Mm-hmm. So here’s a course for that. So in some ways it was like we just started bolting on, like additional, like next paths, like do this next, do this next, and then created this, you know, ended up with like a whole library of stuff.

[00:27:20] So that was one way that I kind of like got around that, that thing. But they were all part of the same ecosystem.

[00:27:25] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:27:26] Shawn: And then also, um, you have to choose which direction you’re gonna go. Are you going to double down on this thing and iterate on it?

[00:27:33] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:27:33] Shawn: And continue to sell the same thing to like really understand that core audience?

[00:27:39] Um, like Sam Vander Wielen does this really well, like with her legal templates. Like she knows exactly her audience- Oh, yeah … exactly who to buy. And so she just has really doubled down on that. And she’s doing like

[00:27:46] Nathan: 3, 4, $500,000 worth launches. Right. Yeah, just

[00:27:49] Shawn: crushing

[00:27:49] Nathan: it. At a time when people are like, “Oh, courses and templates are dead.”

[00:27:52] Yeah. And she’s like, ”

[00:27:53] Shawn: Okay.” She’s like, “Yeah, hold

[00:27:54] Nathan: my beer.” “My audience didn’t get the memo.” My audience didn’t get the memo. “So I think I’ll just keep cashing these checks.”

[00:27:58] Shawn: Yeah. Um, so that’s a path to go. Or the other path is you cr- keep creating something new, and you keep selling new things to the same people.

[00:28:05] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:28:06] Shawn: And this is… Like they’re both valuable, and they both work. It’s just like deciding, do you wanna keep creating the new thing, or do you wanna kind of double down- Mm-hmm … on what you’ve got that’s working really well? So for me, I loved just the topic of the focus course. I love that ecosystem. Um, it’s stuff that I could teach in my sleep.

[00:28:21] I love talking about it. So I loved building that out and kind of going that direction, um, and pursuing that, pursuing that.

[00:28:29] Nathan: Yeah. You know, a mistake that I see creators make is they, they focus on a topic that they’re either passionate about in the moment, but not long term.

[00:28:37] Shawn: Mm-hmm.

[00:28:37] Nathan: Or is trendy in the moment.

[00:28:39] Shawn: Yeah.

[00:28:39] Nathan: And then there’s no longevity in that.

[00:28:41] Shawn: Yeah.

[00:28:42] Nathan: But turns out, like focus, productivity, some of, some of these ideas, um, you know, like great writing or how to build wealth or… Like there’s a, a- Right … there’s categories of ideas that will always- They’re

[00:28:52] Shawn: generationally relevant.

[00:28:53] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:28:53] Shawn: Yeah.

[00:28:54] Nathan: Someone could have written about them 100 years ago.

[00:28:56] Shawn: Mm-hmm.

[00:28:56] Nathan: And the writing today will look a little bit different, you know? Um, but it’s still- It’s the

[00:29:01] Shawn: same …

[00:29:01] Nathan: it’s the same core, core principle. Same

[00:29:02] Shawn: principles, yeah.

[00:29:03] Nathan: Versus like how to do this one thing with this one tool. Mm-hmm. You know, if you did a, um… I care about design, so if I did a, a course on… Well, I did Photoshop for web design.

[00:29:12] Yeah. We don’t use Photoshop for web design anymore. No. Right? Or if you did it on Sketch, like we don’t, we don’t use that.

[00:29:17] Shawn: Completely

[00:29:17] Nathan: irrelevant. Even Figma, which dominates the market as a de- as the design space, you’re like, well, maybe Cloud Design-

[00:29:24] Shawn: Mm-hmm …

[00:29:24] Nathan: is the, is a thing.

[00:29:25] Shawn: Yeah.

[00:29:26] Nathan: And so I think finding the container that’s big enough that can hold wherever the industry goes.

[00:29:33] Like, you wouldn’t wanna be known for something very, very specific, but you, you know, at this point you could be, like, AI for design. Mm-hmm. And that would be an interesting topic of-

[00:29:41] Shawn: Yeah …

[00:29:41] Nathan: and how to do it. So, like, making sure the container’s broad enough.

[00:29:44] Shawn: Right. Yeah.

[00:29:45] Nathan: But then you started to focus on, uh, like, started to do other projects.

[00:29:48] Shawn: Mm-hmm.

[00:29:48] Nathan: Right? And lose interest in the, in the focus course. Is that right?

[00:29:51] Shawn: I did. So we… We’re at 11 years now. Yeah. As we’re recording this, it’s, like, in a couple weeks. And around, like, I’d say, so probably two years ago, 18 months ago, two years ago- Mm … I started getting, like, bored-

[00:30:02] Nathan: Yep …

[00:30:03] Shawn: in the business. And it’s funny you say, like, the, what got you here won’t get you there.

[00:30:07] This is only relevant 50% of the time. Like, I like to say the same thing. Like, your business isn’t your hobby. And so it’s like you will get bored in your business, but keep doing what’s working. Um, and don’t, like, don’t sabotage it just because you’re bored. Mm. And that’s the 50% of what got you here actually will get you there.

[00:30:24] You’re just bored of it.

[00:30:25] Nathan: There’s another quote that might be, uh, um, too rough, but, you know, but it’s that most businesses die by suicide, not homicide.

[00:30:33] Shawn: Yeah.

[00:30:33] Nathan: Like, they… Almost nothing else comes in from the outside to kill it. Mm. It’s usually something internal, like founder strife, uh, the founder getting bored, a team issue, you know.

[00:30:41] Yeah. Any of those things. Um, like, businesses are rarely killed from the outside.

[00:30:45] Shawn: Yeah. Self-sabotage. Yeah. Exactly. And so I could feel that, uh, that I was getting bored with it, but I gotta stick with this, right? Right. My business isn’t my hobby, and so it’s working. I’m gonna keep going with, going with as well.

[00:30:58] But I knew, like, what’s gonna be the next thing. So on the side, I had this other, not a… It wasn’t a business going, but I had this other, these other activities of, like, the community stuff. Mm. And I was around some people, and they gave me some really helpful advice around, like, maybe your business is stuck because you’re stuck.

[00:31:17] And, like, that was sort of like, oh, oh, oh. Like, it all started to kind of, like, click for me. I was like, oh, maybe my business is, is boring because I’m bored, and- Mm … it’s stuck, like, because I’m stuck, and there’s something, something with me. Like, the business isn’t broken, my audience isn’t broken, the offer isn’t broken.

[00:31:34] Like, I’m broken as the- Okay … the leader.

[00:31:37] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:31:38] Shawn: And-

[00:31:38] Nathan: That’s a scary thing to sit with …

[00:31:40] Shawn: it was- It was actually really liberating. Mm. Um, uh, like our friend Daryl was kind of the first person to mention it, and then several other friends like, uh, Tim and B- or Barrett who’ve all been on the show-

[00:31:51] Nathan: Yep …

[00:31:52] Shawn: um, were really helpful in like talking that through.

[00:31:55] And so for me like realizing, oh, I think I need to figure out some stuff for myself and maybe that will help like unlock what’s next for the business.

[00:32:02] Nathan: Let’s dive into the idea of reinventing yourself.

[00:32:04] Shawn: Yeah. ‘

[00:32:05] Nathan: Cause I think that that’s so important. When you start to realize, okay, I’m stuck-

[00:32:10] Shawn: Mm-hmm …

[00:32:11] Nathan: you know, I might be the limiting factor in this business, what are the things that you went through on the personal side and how did you start to unpack that?

[00:32:19] Shawn: Um, what’s fascinating is, so this actually ends up leading to the biggest breakthrough for the business- Mm … that I’ve had in 15 years, which we’ll get to that. So I remember, this is about a year ago. I was in Colorado, and I’ve been doing these retreats in Colorado every summer for- Mm … quite a while. And so I’m out in Colorado preparing for the retreat and I broke my toe, and so I was just sitting on the couch.

[00:32:39] I couldn’t do anything, and we were visiting with family. So they’re all at the pool and I’m just home at our rental like hanging out by myself. So I just started journaling about like what’s the next 10 years for my life and for, for my business and what is this gonna look like. And I’m writing stuff down and I’m journaling about 10 years in my marriage, 10 years with my kids- Mm

[00:32:57] 10 years for my wife’s business. And I get to the Focus Core stuff and I’m like, what does it look like in 10 years from now? I had nothing. It was just- Mm. I- it was li-

[00:33:06] Nathan: So it’s flowing in all the other categories- Yeah … and you get to that category and you’re like, uh.

[00:33:09] Shawn: It was just a black hole. I just didn’t…

[00:33:10] It was cloudy. I couldn’t see anything. Mm. And that was when I began to realize, I’m like, I think, I think maybe I’m done with this. Mm. And I had like, this was one year ago and so it was two years ago that I realized I think I’m the one who’s stuck. Okay. So in between that time, um, I started going to therapy.

[00:33:28] Mm. I started getting like some professional help, doing like a lot of internal work and that like opened up a ton for me and just like helped. I kept, I’ve told you about this like fear of rejection with like putting our stuff out there and I realized I had like some, I had real issues of like fear that people would like not like me from like childhood friends and just ways that you’re treated in high school.

[00:33:50] Like nothing major- Mm … but like it just sits there, you know, and it, it, it, you know, hangs out with you. I took it, brought it into my business with me. So being able to work through a lot of that, um, gave me like some confidence to be willing to try new things. And then as I’m journaling about the future of the business and realizing I don’t know if I see a future for it, maybe I’m done with it, and just being able to be okay with I could shut this down after 10 years and it would be all right.

[00:34:20] So that was, like, a huge, like, revelation for me of I could start something new, and I could end this thing that I’ve been doing for the last 10 years that is my whole online brand, my, my whole Instagram account. It’s all about Focus. Like, this is all the stuff that I’ve done. I could… I could let that go, and it would be okay.

[00:34:36] I wouldn’t be a failure.

[00:34:37] Nathan: Well, you said something. You said that earlier, right? That it was hard not to think of yourself as a failure-

[00:34:41] Shawn: Mm-hmm …

[00:34:42] Nathan: if the business is shut down.

[00:34:43] Shawn: Right.

[00:34:44] Nathan: Like, uh, and then contrasting that with what you just said of, like, okay, I could get to that point where you’re like, “Oh, no, actually, these are separate fr- from me.

[00:34:50] Like, I can, I can end a season, close a chapter-

[00:34:53] Shawn: Mm-hmm …

[00:34:54] Nathan: and not be a failure,” especially as you’re like, “Oh, it made millions of dollars.”

[00:34:58] Shawn: Yeah.

[00:34:58] Nathan: Um, how do you reconcile that? Like, how did you go from point A to point B, where you’re like, “Oh, okay, let me actually separate my identity in that way”?

[00:35:07] Shawn: I just had to sit with it for a while-

[00:35:08] Nathan: Hmm

[00:35:08] Shawn: and, like, be willing to, like, put the business on the table and to be like- Mm-hmm … this course, which has become, like, my flagship thing that I’ve done for 10 years. It’s what everyone knows me for. Um, I love talking about it. I love doing it, but I think I could close the chapter on it, and that would be okay.

[00:35:28] It had a good long run. It, you know, it did what it needed to do, and I can, like, thank it. I can thank my customers. Like, and then what I’ve learned from it, and now I can go move on to maybe the next thing.

[00:35:42] Nathan: You said thank it, and that’s something that stands out to me. Like, I think that gratitude is the single most helpful emotion to get to closure.

[00:35:51] Shawn: Mm-hmm

[00:35:52] Nathan: And we have all these experiences or things that we’ve been running or relationships or what- whatever else, and they’re not all good and they’re not all bad. Yeah. Like, there’s so much of it. And when you can sit with this idea, you can sit with gratitude and say like, you know, “Thank you for the revenue, the house that enabled us to purchase, the, the skills that I learned through it, through the rela- re- relationships that I made,” all of those things.

[00:36:18] And you can go through the, the hard things as well, and you’re like, “Oh, thank you for the pain that this caused when,” I don’t know, “the spammers took over, the credit card fraud- Right … and all this because I, I learned in this area and I grew. I became more resilient. Like, thank you for, you know, the failed relationships because I learned how to navigate conflict.

[00:36:36] Mm-hmm. Like, any of those things. It’s a long way of saying I, I just believe that gratitude is the single most effective practice for getting to closure and peace.

[00:36:44] Shawn: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Um, Marie Kondo talks about this in her book- Mm … with tidying up. She’s like, “If you’ve had this shirt in your closet for the last year,” she’s like, “Take it out, say, ‘Thanks for teaching me that I don’t like this kind of shirt,’ and now give it away and move on.”

[00:36:59] Nathan: Yes. Yes.

[00:37:01] Shawn: Yeah, so that was a huge… Like, just being willing to sit with it was kind of how I was able to come to terms with it, and then start to say it out loud. And so, like, I mentioned it to my wife that, that evening. I was like, “I think maybe I might be done with this.” She was like, “Okay. Tell me more.” I’m like, “I don’t know.

[00:37:16] Maybe, maybe I could move on to the next thing.” Then I went to the mastermind in, in Colorado that I, I host and shared it with some of the guys that were there, and it’s like, “I think maybe I’m done with this part of my life.” And them all going like, “Yeah, we know.” Like, “What?” Friends are great. “What do you mean?”

[00:37:31] They’re like, “We’ve been waiting, like, years for you to say that you’re ready to move on to the next thing. We…” They’re like, “We’ve seen it forever. We’re just waiting for you to catch up.” Um, so that was, that was interesting to, to be able to have that conversation.

[00:37:44] Nathan: Well, let’s talk about masterminds- Yeah

[00:37:45] for a moment because- They’ve been pivotal for me in my life. Yeah. Uh, they have been for you. Mm-hmm. You’ve, uh, been to and hosted many. Um, what does it take to put together, like, that group of friends that you can… that can relate to your business and all of that, and then also can be on that level where they’re like, “Oh, yeah, no, we see you, and it’s time”?

[00:38:06] Shawn: I think that the, the biggest piece is, like, who’s in the room.

[00:38:10] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:38:10] Shawn: And I’m always looking for, like, values fit first. Like, I want, I wanna get life advice and business advice from someone whom, like, I respect the choices that, that they’ve made in their life. Mm-hmm. So I’m always looking for, for that kind of a thing.

[00:38:25] So the groups that I go to to be around and learn from are the, the ones where I’m putting it together and inviting people, I’m always looking for that values fit.

[00:38:32] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:38:32] Shawn: And then you just have to be honest with this group of people. Yeah. And, like, what’s really going on in the business, and what’s really going on with, with me, um, as the business owner so that they can give context relevant feedback and context relevant advice.

[00:38:47] So I think what it takes to put them on is you just need a place. Like, “Hey, show up at this place at this time, and you’re invited.” And it doesn’t honestly take much more than that.

[00:38:57] Nathan: Did you ever have, like, an imposter syndrome putting together these events of, like, who am I to pull together? Like, I, I think of, um- Oh, my

[00:39:03] Shawn: gosh, yeah

[00:39:04] Nathan: uh.

[00:39:04] Shawn: Every single time

[00:39:06] Nathan: still. Yeah.

[00:39:06] Shawn: I still have it.

[00:39:08] Nathan: So I, I was at, um, Social Media Marketing World- In, I don’t know, probably 2015 or something like

[00:39:15] Shawn: that

[00:39:16] Nathan: Mm-hmm And I remember the founder, which now I’m just gonna space on his name, which is terrible. But, um, getting up there and giving, like, the state of social media.

[00:39:25] Shawn: Mm-hmm.

[00:39:25] Nathan: You know? It was like the, the state of the union, but for social media. Right. And I remember thinking like, “Wait a second. I understand why the president gives the state of the union, ’cause, like, a few hundred million people elected him.” You know? And, like, there was a bunch of votes, there was a whole thing, and you know, that ended up that way, right?

[00:39:40] But, like, you just picked yourself you know, and you organized a conference call together. Uh-huh. And it’s like, yeah, pretty much.

[00:39:47] Shawn: Yeah.

[00:39:47] Nathan: And so y- you know, we always wanna get in… We hear about the masterminds. Uh, oh, Michael Stelzner is the person-

[00:39:53] Shawn: Okay …

[00:39:54] Nathan: who ran Social Media Marketing World. With the masterminds and, and everything else, like, w- I wanna be in the room, I wanna get invited, and the best advice is, like, okay, then create the room.

[00:40:04] Shawn: Mm-hmm.

[00:40:05] Nathan: But that’s like, well, would anyone come? How can I-

[00:40:07] Shawn: Yeah …

[00:40:08] Nathan: who am I to possibly put this together? Like, I, I need someone else to do that. Yeah. But you overcame that. Mm-hmm. You started hosting these Breckenridge masterminds, and you hosted a ton of them. Mm-hmm. But, like, w- what would you say to someone who’s like, “Okay, I wanna host my own.

[00:40:21] You know, what are the few things that I need to do?”

[00:40:24] Shawn: My first thing for someone who’s like, “I think I wanna host my own,” would be you don’t do it for the money. But I think the best reason to do it is not to make money from the mastermind- Yeah … it’s to make relationships.

[00:40:35] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:40:35] Shawn: And then it’s what it unlocks for the rest of your business- Mm

[00:40:38] and the rest of your life when you leave, when you leave the group. And so the very first one that I ever did, I remember talking to a good friend of mine, and I was just bemoaning, uh… It was recently after I’d done, like, the $100,000 launch, and, like, the business had kind of grown, and I was just like, “I don’t have anyone to talk about money with.”

[00:40:55] Nathan: Mm.

[00:40:56] Shawn: Yeah. “I don’t have anyone to talk about, like, hiring and teams.” And I was like, “I just…” Like, I’ve now alienated myself in some ways in, as an entrepreneur, like,

[00:41:04] Nathan: just- I’m laughing because we name all of our studios in, uh, at Kids Studios- Uh-huh … after Taylor Swift songs.

[00:41:10] Shawn: Uh-huh.

[00:41:10] Nathan: And the one right across the hall from where we’re in is called Champagne Problems.

[00:41:14] Shawn: Mm-hmm.

[00:41:15] Nathan: And so you’re like, “Oh, I have all this money and I don’t know how to…” Like, you know, we’re talking through- Yeah … champagne problems. Yeah. Which is a very dismissive way to, you know… Like, it dismisses real problems. Right. Right? It causes stress and anxiety. Yeah. And you’re like, “How do I navigate? I have all this opportunity.”

[00:41:28] Yeah. “How do I navigate it? How do I talk to family about it?” Yeah. “How do I still show up authentically to who I am?” And, and having people to do that with is so, so important.

[00:41:38] Shawn: Yeah.

[00:41:39] Nathan: And often, you know, whoever you went to high school with or go to church with or whatever else- are probably not those people anymore.

[00:41:45] Shawn: Mm-hmm.

[00:41:46] Nathan: Right? Exactly. ‘Cause they’re having very different life experiences.

[00:41:48] Shawn: Yeah.

[00:41:48] Nathan: So yeah, pulling to … I cut you

[00:41:50] Shawn: off. Right. So my friend was like, “What do you wanna do about it?” I’m like, “Well, man, I would love to…” ‘Cause I knew you had your mastermind. Mm-hmm. And that was, like, I had gleaned, like, oh, you can do this.

[00:42:00] You can get some friends that know about business, and you can get together in a location together. Mm-hmm. And you can talk about business for, like, two or three days in a row. Yeah. And just, like, go there and, like, just nerd out on all the business stuff. And I was like, I didn’t know that that was a thing.

[00:42:13] So

[00:42:13] Nathan: I was like- And your costs are, like, a flight. Yeah. Everybody’s splitting an Airbnb.

[00:42:17] Shawn: That’s exactly what we did, yeah. And

[00:42:18] Nathan: some groceries.

[00:42:19] Shawn: That’s exactly what we did. So got some friends together. Like, I had a couple other internet friends that… and owned businesses, and so I reached out to some of them.

[00:42:27] And then I’m like, “Can you invite a friend?”

[00:42:30] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:42:30] Shawn: And so then, like, I asked my three friends. They all invited someone, and then we had, like, nine people. Yeah. And then, like, couple other people heard about it, and once I had, like… ‘Cause, like, James Clear came. Mm-hmm. Uh, Chase Reeves. Yeah. Uh, like, all, all folks on your show.

[00:42:42] Then I was like, I was able to get, like, a couple other people, ’cause I’m like, “Hey, this person’s gonna be there.” They’re like, “Oh, sweet. I’d love to come.” And so we had this first one in, you know, Colorado, and I had massive imposter syndrome. ‘Cause everyone’s, like, you know, has these incredible businesses, and they’re bigger than me, and they have the…

[00:42:58] You s- you know, James is, like, his email list was only, like, 400,000 people at that time. Yeah. Yeah. And he was working on some new book, you know. But I was like, the value I bring is, like, I can put the room together.

[00:43:08] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:43:09] Shawn: I booked the Airbnb. I booked the chef. I told everybody when to show up. I booked the, the van to drive us all to the place.

[00:43:16] All everyone else had to do was show up. And that was a, such a massive pivotal moment- Yeah … for me of, like, pulling it off. Um, and it was the first year of Craft and Commerce, and we… literally, like, half of us flew from Colorado straight to here- … for, like, the first one of that. Uh,

[00:43:31] Nathan: so it was so fun. There’s, there’s something in that of, like, um, I discovered sports, like, well after college.

[00:43:37] Mm-hmm. And I love, you know, soccer and volleyball- Yeah … and all of that. And so I always play on teams that I don’t belong on, and the way that I do it is I’m the one who organizes the team.

[00:43:46] Shawn: Mm-hmm.

[00:43:46] Nathan: So, like, my volleyball team is Uh, more than half the team are division one, uh, college athletes, right? I do not belong on the team.

[00:43:54] Um, but everyone’s like, “Thank you so much for organizing the team.” Yeah. “Making sure it’s all paid,” and all that. And so you can play at a level, and push yourself, and, and be in rooms- Yeah … you don’t belong in-

[00:44:03] Shawn: Yeah …

[00:44:03] Nathan: if you’re just willing to do the grunt work.

[00:44:05] Shawn: Right.

[00:44:06] Nathan: And, and it, it’d be the, the, uh, the glue that pulls it together.

[00:44:09] Shawn: And I think, too, the thing is, um, like, we wanna be… I was talking to a friend about this just recently. Like, we wanna be invited into those rooms.

[00:44:16] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:44:17] Shawn: And it’s just impossible. You won’t be invited into all the rooms. Yeah. And with social media, all, now everyone’s like, “I’m at this event.” And it’s like, you know, I follow, whatever, 100 amazing creators, and they’re all at different events.

[00:44:28] I’m like, “Oh, I wish I could be at all of those.” Right. I wanna be invited. Like, oh, so sad for me. I didn’t get invited to those. And it’s like, for one, like, they weren’t thinking, “Oh, Sean’s on the list. Nope.” “We’re not inviting him.” Truth is, they just didn’t think about me at all. Yeah. Which I, meh, I don’t know if that’s worse or not.

[00:44:44] But the other thing is, like, it would be impossible for me to even go anyways. Mm-hmm. And so it’s like, instead of wishing I could be invited into the room, it’s like, what is the room that I, that I do wanna be in? And what is the, the feel that I want for that room? And what do I want for myself, and what do I want for other people if they were a part of that?

[00:45:01] And then I can just, I can create that. And I can invite myself, and I can invite these other people, and try to make them feel like seen and cared for, and that they’re important, and that they’re valued. And then also, then I have so much more, like, empathy for then, ’cause I’m like, “I can’t invite everybody either.”

[00:45:18] Right. Like, the list of who I want is, you know, hundreds of people. The list of who can actually fit in this Airbnb is 12. Right. And so, like, just physics say, “I’m sorry, you can’t be invited.” Yeah, so it, I think, yeah, just being willing to take that bet, and, like, be the one who organizes it and put it together, um.

[00:45:36] I love it. Yeah.

[00:45:37] Nathan: Okay, so I wanna get into the, kinda the most recent pivot in the business. Yeah. So you’ve been doing, you’ve been hosting the Colorado Mastermind.

[00:45:45] Shawn: Mm-hmm.

[00:45:46] Nathan: And then you also started co- um, hosting Mashup- Mm-hmm … with Mo Bunnell.

[00:45:50] Shawn: Yep.

[00:45:51] Nathan: And that was a, at a different format, where you’re able to bring not just 12 people.

[00:45:55] You could bring, you know, 45- Yep … or, or that sort of thing. Yep. Um, and so the community has a lot of overlap and, um, that’s been a wonderful event that I’ve been to many times. What I’m curious about is how that evolved into Aspen-

[00:46:10] Shawn: Mm-hmm …

[00:46:10] Nathan: and where you’re taking it now.

[00:46:12] Shawn: Yeah. So coming back to Colorado, my broken toe.

[00:46:17] Yeah. I’m thinking about the next 10 years, and I go, “I think I could shut the, I think I could shut down the focus course.” And it’s like, well, what would be next? And at this point, I’d been doing the Breckenridge retreats for almost 10 years. And then, like you said, like, the list of who I wanted to invite to Breckenridge was way longer than the, like, who could fit in the house.

[00:46:37] So my friend Mo, our mutual friend Mo, he lives in Atlanta, and he was like, “Why don’t you invite people to my place, and we’ll do as a bigger event, and we can fit, like, 50?” Mm-hmm. I was like, “That’d be amazing.” So we started doing… It’s called Mashup, and so we’ve started doing these, and even now Mashup is, like, actually, now there’s, like, the wait list for that.

[00:46:53] But, so who knows? Yeah. Champagne problems. Um, I was like, man, if I was gonna shut down the focus course and could do something else, I would want to do more mastermind events- Mm … and retreats, and just, I would want to host these, like, established, successful creators and, like, the community that’s, like, needed for them.

[00:47:14] And, like, the value that I bring is they’re going, “You just tell me where I gotta show up, and then you’re putting together the guest list, and it’s, like, most of my friends, and then new people that I want to be my friends.” They’re like, “That’s… Thank you.” And I love getting to do that. Like, I… You know, when Anna and I will go back at the end of the year and r- review, like, what do we love from the past year, usually, like, the top two or three things for me, it’s, like, my backpacking trip with my brothers that I do every year, whatever anniversary getaway Anna and I went on, and then it’s, like, my Colorado Breckenridge retreat.

[00:47:44] Yeah. It’s, like, one of my favorite things from the whole year. And I was like, man, that would be… I think I’m really good at this. I really enjoy doing it. Could I- shut down my current business to give myself more capacity and more attention to do masterminds even better, and, like, create a, an even better space for it.

[00:48:03] So that’s what I went to with, you know, when we went to Breckenridge, it’s like, “Hey, Dan, I’m gonna shut down the focus course.” And everyone was like, “Yeah, we’ve been waiting for you to say that.” And I was like, “I think I wanna start something new on the mastermind side.” And they’re like, “Yeah, we’ve been waiting for you to say that.”

[00:48:13] It’s like, all right. Well, I’m glad I finally, I’m glad I finally caught up.

[00:48:18] Nathan: Yeah. Also, they could’ve been- Yeah … a little more direct with it.

[00:48:21] Shawn: Right.

[00:48:21] Nathan: I appreciate the friends who will pull you aside and be like, “Hey, uh, a little unsolicited feedback for you.” Yeah, yeah. “I don’t know if you’re open to this, but…”

[00:48:26] Yeah. And then they just

[00:48:27] Shawn: say. Well, we’ve been teasing it out for like- Yeah … a couple of years, and it just, I, again, like massive imposter syndrome for me. Because just by necessity, if it’s gonna be smaller, and if it’s gonna replace this other business that I’ve been running, I’m like, it has to be high ticket.

[00:48:42] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:48:42] Shawn: And it’s like, this is the first time I’m gonna charge, you know, $20,000 for something. Right. And so that feels very… I had a lot of fear. Yeah. Like the same fear, right? Uh, but I just followed the same playbook. I’m like, well, I’ll do it scared. So, uh, I remember driving back from Breckenridge to the Denver Airport as we were wrapping up the mastermind, and basically had gotten, like, quote-unquote, like, permission- Mm

[00:49:04] from all my friends. Like, “You’ve gotta do this thing,” and, like, “Tell us what you need, and, like, we wanna support you.” So just feeling like they were excited about it. And I worked through, like, enough of, like, the general details of, like, okay, I think it’s gonna look like this, these kind of containers. And I wanted it to be…

[00:49:22] I so wanted it to be, like, different or, like, new, because I’m looking out there on the landscape, and there’s a lot of people that run, like, higher-end masterminds. For

[00:49:30] Nathan: sure.

[00:49:31] Shawn: And I’m like, I want mine to be different. And so I, like, sketched out all these things, I’m like, no, it’s just gonna be like all the others.

[00:49:38] We get together, we have some Zoom calls, we have a Slack channel. Like, I’m like, I guess what’s different about it is, like, the unique makeup and, like, the, the culture- Mm … of this group. And that’s what actually will be different about it. It won’t… Like, what’s on paper- The

[00:49:52] Nathan: container’s actually tried and true.

[00:49:53] Shawn: Right. Exactly. Yeah. That’s exactly what it is. And so coming to grips with, oh, I don’t have to reinvent the container.

[00:49:58] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:49:58] Shawn: I just need to, like, invite people to join it- Mm … is actually all that needs to be done. And

[00:50:02] Nathan: be clear on who we invite, what the shared values are.

[00:50:04] Shawn: Exactly.

[00:50:05] Nathan: And all that. Yeah. And that shapes it.

[00:50:06] Shawn: Exactly. And so- So that, so I decided to call it Aspen. And I think just as we think about community, Aspen to me is, like, such a beautiful picture because aspen trees in Colorado, it’s actually one organism. Like, all the trees- Yeah … it’s a grove of aspen trees is just one, and they have this shared root system.

[00:50:26] Mm-hmm. And, like, the way that they share values, the way that they share resources, share with each other and things like that. Um, and it’s like, oh, that’s, that’s what this is all about. It’s actually about, it’s about relationships, it’s about community, it’s about connecting with one another. So I decided, like, we’re gonna do it.

[00:50:41] We’re gonna shut down the Focus course, and I’m gonna start this new thing. It’s called Aspen. So I come home from Colorado, and I sit down with my team, and I was like, “All right,” like, “here’s what we’re gonna do.” And they go, “Well, don’t, don’t shut it down.” Like, “We wanna run it. Let us- Right … let us run it.” And I’m like, “Okay,” like, “you guys can have 2026.

[00:51:00] It’s yours.” And, um, and they’re like, “Let’s…” We’re like, “Let’s just do one last hurrah for the Focus course, and instead of doing it as the four, four-week cohort-” Uh, like what if we just do it as one day? Just a live day. Mm-hmm. Like the whole focus course in one day, and, um, just you can teach it your last time and, like, have fun with it.

[00:51:19] Get some new people to go through it, old people that wanna experience it, whatever. And then, uh, and then we’ll take over the, you know, the current community and all the stuff that’s going on right now. I was like, “That sounds great.” And I think because I was now done with that side of the business, I was, like, willing to, like, kind of hold my hands open to it, um, and, like, give it up.

[00:51:39] I didn’t have any, like, control over- Mm-hmm … how it needed to look.

[00:51:43] Nathan: Yep.

[00:51:44] Shawn: So we ended up, like, we did it for, like, 10 bucks. Like, one day, 10 bucks. Okay. Because, like, it’s a 10-year anniversary, and we’re like, this isn’t about trying to make money. This is about we just want to- Share the message … like, share the message.

[00:51:53] Nathan: Yeah. And i- impact people.

[00:51:54] Shawn: Right. And then what ended up happening is, like, we made an insane amount of money. And- Like,

[00:51:59] Nathan: how much money did it make?

[00:52:00] Shawn: So I don’t have all the numbers off the top of my head. Like, but it made a lot of money. Maybe $750,000 in the last nine months.

[00:52:10] And, um- Yep. … because we’re like, let’s, you know, we’ll have, like, 500 people come. I was like- Right … I, ’cause because I was getting bored in the business, we could see it slowing down, and so I felt- Yeah … like people aren’t interested in this anymore or whatever. And so we recorded some ads, and we’re like, “Hey, I’m gonna teach this one-day live event.

[00:52:30] It’s the 10-year anniversary. We’re just gonna charge 10 bucks for it.”

[00:52:33] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:52:33] Shawn: And then we had, like, some bump sells and some upsells in place, and we, like, started doing ads on Facebook. And our initial budget was 80 bucks a day. And, uh, we were working with our ad guy, and, like, immediately, like, every… Like, within 15 minutes, we were, like, liquidating our ad spend.

[00:52:48] Like, every single purchase was basically liquidating the ad spend.

[00:52:51] Nathan: Because of, so the $10 on the front end, and then a few- It

[00:52:55] Shawn: was converting …

[00:52:56] Nathan: of the bumps

[00:52:56] Shawn: would be enough to- Yeah. The, the ad spend was converting, the ads were converting so well. So we went from $80 a day to $3,200 a day in two weeks. So we scaled- Just steadily ratcheting it up

[00:53:05] we just scaled by

[00:53:05] Nathan: 50.

[00:53:07] Shawn: So we went from, like, like 3,000 a month

[00:53:11] Nathan: to 100,000 a month.

[00:53:11] Shawn: In ad spend. And we were liquidating every 24 hours of ad spend, um, with, like, actually, like, it was close to, at one point, we were getting, like, a 3X return immediately. And then, so we had, like, 3,000 people that went through the first day.

[00:53:23] I’m like, “Crap, like, this is- This is working … this is going bananas.” So we added another day, and we had 3,000 people that joined for that one, then we added another day. We had 3,000 people that joined for that one. Um, and this is, I mean, this is also, like, September, October, November, which in the productivity space, like, that’s the Super Bowl season for us.

[00:53:39] Okay. So everyone’s interested in, like, life design and reinventing- Mm-hmm … themselves at the end of the year, stuff like that. So, like, it was the right offer for the right price at the right time to the right person, and it just… It’s like, oh, this is what product market fit feels like.

[00:53:52] Nathan: Right.

[00:53:52] Shawn: And it was, like, we just couldn’t, we couldn’t sell it fast enough, and the people that were coming in were the right people.

[00:53:58] And so we had, like, we’re doing these Zoom calls, seven-hour long Zoom workshop. We had 2,500 people live on Zoom for seven hours going through this 150-page workbook. Mm-hmm. And, like, the chat was, like, it was just crazy, and it completely changed the trajectory of our business. So our MRR, like, tripled in, like, 60 days.

[00:54:17] Our community size went from, like, 150 people in the community to over 400 people in the community. Um, and but we had everything in place already for it.

[00:54:26] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:54:26] Shawn: Mm-hmm. So it just, like, they just slid right in. We had all the systems ready, and it was just like, holy cow. Like, I’ve always wondered, like, there’s no silver bullet, but this, if there ha- ever has been one for, like, our business, like, this was it.

[00:54:37] Um, and it just unlocked all this stuff. And so then… But my team had already said, “We’re taking over,” so I just handed them-

[00:54:43] Nathan: Mm …

[00:54:44] Shawn: like, “Oh, here’s this, like, much bigger, much more thriving business.” Uh, so they have been running everything for me, and I’ll show up and I’ll do the workshops, and have been teaching those.

[00:54:53] And, um, now we’re doing, like, we do one workshop a month and the focus course in a day thing, and that’s been, it’s been amazing to see- Yeah … like, how, like, being willing to let go of it, then it opened it up.

[00:55:06] Nathan: So that $750,000 in revenue- Mm-hmm … in nine months. Like, what are the other lessons that you take away from that?

[00:55:13] Shawn: I think, uh, this is from our mutual, like, inspiration, Jason Fried. Like, don’t be romantic about how you make your money.

[00:55:20] Nathan: Mm.

[00:55:21] Shawn: And I felt like this was my life’s work, my, my flagship course, and to be like, instead of continuing to raise the price year over year, for us to go, like, way down, like 10 bucks.

[00:55:33] Nathan: Right.

[00:55:33] Um- What were you at before? You were a few hundred?

[00:55:35] Shawn: Yeah, like 500 bucks for the on-demand. 500, yeah. And then we would do it as a four-week cohort, and that was $1,000 for the cohort. But there just wasn’t, like, as much interest. Like, our cohorts, you know- Yeah … we’d have, like, maybe 100 people that would go through a cohort, and so it wasn’t, like, it wasn’t growing anymore.

[00:55:49] And-

[00:55:51] Nathan: Is you inverted it entirely.

[00:55:52] Shawn: Right. We invirt- inverted it entirely. And we’re like, what would it look like for us if this was easy? And how can we also get away with, like, lowering the price without making it feel gimmicky?

[00:56:01] Nathan: Well, the other thing is the conventional wisdom would say, sure, you can do that if you have a large organic audience.

[00:56:06] Shawn: Mm-hmm.

[00:56:07] Nathan: But you could never make ads profitable-

[00:56:09] Shawn: Mm-hmm …

[00:56:09] Nathan: to that $10 offering.

[00:56:11] Shawn: Yeah, yeah.

[00:56:12] Nathan: And you had run ads plenty of times before.

[00:56:14] Shawn: Oh, we were losing money. I mean, such a great way to light your money on fire. And hit your head into a brick wall over and over and over, yeah. We’re trying to figure out ads, ’cause we had a lot of organic traffic and, like, a pretty good sized email list, but no- Like, we could never figure out ads for like- Mm-hmm

[00:56:30] a couple of years. We could just never figure it

[00:56:31] Nathan: out. At that 2 to $500 price point.

[00:56:33] Shawn: We were doing… Well, we were trying, like, lower ticket stuff, like evergreen- Yeah … webinars, like, free funnels into this, and then, like, an upsell. And, like, I mean, we were, you know, like, a good month we’d make back, like, 80% of our ad spend.

[00:56:45] Nathan: Mm.

[00:56:45] Shawn: And then, like, well, at least we have these people on our list, and then we can sell them something later, which they usually would end up buying later, and we’d like, you know, break even after, like, six months. Yeah. But just never, never really, like, took off.

[00:56:56] Nathan: And then you go this… You stop being precious about it, right?

[00:56:58] Yep. Um, and you let go of all these, these aspects of it, invert the price-

[00:57:03] Shawn: Mm-hmm …

[00:57:03] Nathan: totally change the funnel. Yeah. And then all of a sudden you, you know, you go from a 0.8 return on ROAS-

[00:57:09] Shawn: Yeah …

[00:57:09] Nathan: uh, to a, uh, you know, up to 3X.

[00:57:12] Shawn: Yeah.

[00:57:13] Nathan: Um, yeah. That’s, that’s wild.

[00:57:14] Shawn: It was so fun. It was so fun. Like, my team, like… It was just crazy to be like, we’re spending $3,000 a day on Facebook- Mm-hmm

[00:57:21] and we’re bringing in, you know, 5 to $10,000 a day. Like, just… And what’s funny is my business credit card maxes at 50 grand. So, like, every week I’m like, “I gotta make sure I’m paying off the credit off-” Paying it off, yeah … ’cause we’re, like, spending all the, you know,

[00:57:33] Nathan: all this money. In the early days of Kit, we had to do that as well where- Yeah

[00:57:35] I think there was like… It was like a $35,000 credit limit. Yeah. And we’re just like, we’d pay it off four times a mon- month. I remember going to one of our team retreats and making- Mm … sure to pay off the credit card, because, like, the last thing I need is, like- … a new team member who’s joined, has their company credit card, and it, like, gets declined for their coffee at the airport.

[00:57:53] Right, they’re like- Could you imagine how bad that’d be? Yes. Like, make sure to pay off the credit card. And try to convince Amex to give us a higher limit.

[00:57:59] Shawn: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:57:59] Nathan: Um, okay, so this idea of, like, not being romantic-

[00:58:03] Shawn: Yeah …

[00:58:03] Nathan: about how you make money, what does that mean?

[00:58:06] Shawn: I think… Well, it’s, again, it’s removing yourself a little bit from the business and- Yeah

[00:58:10] removing, like, ego, removing some of my pride, and… Because I remember thinking, if we’re gonna charge less, like, well, maybe that’s a failure too, or it looks gimmicky- Oh,

[00:58:20] Nathan: yeah …

[00:58:20] Shawn: or whatever. And- I

[00:58:21] Nathan: thought you said it was worth $500. Now you say it’s worth 10.

[00:58:24] Shawn: Right. Exactly. You

[00:58:24] Nathan: know? Or… Yeah.

[00:58:25] Shawn: And so just being… I think the fact that because I was ready to be done with it- Mm-hmm

[00:58:31] and was willing to just shut it down entirely, then I was like, well, now everything can be back on the table. Like- Mm.

[00:58:37] Nathan: Nothing to lose.

[00:58:37] Shawn: Nothing to lose. Yeah, exactly. And if the goal isn’t to make money, if the goal is actually just to get this in front of people and to get them to experience the process and go through the material, and then we could even be done.

[00:58:50] Like, after that, the relationship could be over. Like, you went through the course, we helped you with your whole life designs thing. You’ve got your one page, and so, like- You know, now best of luck. Like- Right … you know, we’ve, we’ve served you. Um, I’m like, that could be enough. And so just being, then like stepping away from like the fear of like this has to make money to instead actually this just has to like touch people’s lives, I think- Mm-hmm

[00:59:15] that unlocked some stuff as well.

[00:59:16] Nathan: You know, you mentioned Jason Fried earlier. I, i- if there’s probably one person I’ve learned the most from in my business career, it’s him.

[00:59:22] Shawn: Yeah.

[00:59:23] Nathan: And he has this idea that he talks about from learning to play the drums of how you can’t play the drums well if you’re gripping the sticks.

[00:59:30] Shawn: Mm-hmm. If

[00:59:31] Nathan: you’re white-knuckling it, you know, and, you know, it’s just like you gotta loosen up.

[00:59:34] Shawn: Yeah.

[00:59:35] Nathan: You know, and, um, I took a few friends flying on Sunday this week, and, um, you know, when two different people got a chance to like fly the plane as we’re flying over the Sawtooth Mountains- Mm-hmm … which I know you love, um, you know, it’s the same thing.

[00:59:48] Like you ha- like, you know, it’s such a tense experience. You’re like trying to figure out how to fly this plane, and it’s a little bumpy over the mountains and all that. Mm-hmm. And they’re just like death gripping the yoke. And it’s like, no, you gotta loosen up, and then just… And hold it, everything loosely.

[01:00:00] Yeah. And so those drumsticks, you’ve gotta hold them loosely. And it feels like the Focus course, as it, as you lost some level of interest in it, as it was harder to sell out some cohorts, you know, raised the price, it’s like, okay, how do we make this work? Yeah. And then when you finally let go and said, “You know what?

[01:00:16] Anything is fine.”

[01:00:16] Shawn: Yeah. ”

[01:00:17] Nathan: Let’s just be of service.” And then it takes off.

[01:00:19] Shawn: Exactly. Exactly what it is. Yeah, that’s a great analogy. Mm-hmm.

[01:00:23] Nathan: Okay. What does the business look like today? And how do … I, I- Mm … wanna get into that, and then after that, I wanna get, get into how you spend your time.

[01:00:30] Shawn: Yeah. So the Focus Course now, um, I have an incredible team that we just get along really well, and they’re phenomenal.

[01:00:39] Um, and they, so they run… We have a community- Mm-hmm … inside, so that’s kind of the… That’s the model we’ve gone to, is like the course into the community.

[01:00:47] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[01:00:47] Shawn: And so they run all of that. We do, like one live workshop a month, and, um, uh, I teach that. We have another guy, a friend of mine, that teaches it as well, so, like if I get sick, someone else- Yeah

[01:00:59] you know, I’m not the, not the bottleneck. And we’re still running the ads, and they’re still working really well, and, you know, with ads, like you go… they go up and down. For sure. Uh, seasonality. And so-

[01:01:08] Nathan: Try running ads during-

[01:01:09] Shawn: Yeah …

[01:01:10] Nathan: Black Friday or election season. Right. And they don’t work the same way- Yeah

[01:01:13] they did another time. Yeah.

[01:01:14] Shawn: Yeah, exactly.

[01:01:14] Nathan: It’s a constant thing.

[01:01:15] Shawn: Um, and we’re just finding ways to continue to simplify it actually, and like how much can we remove from all of this stuff and make it simple, make it easy. Um, and so we actually have like a newer version of the material that I’m gonna be teaching.

[01:01:27] Actually, well, as we’re recording this, I’m teaching it about a week from now.

[01:01:30] Nathan: Nice.

[01:01:31] Shawn: Um, and then we’re gonna take the summer off, and then we’ll kinda restart again in the fall. But in that business- And then what- … I’m like maybe 10 hours a month. So very, very much removed at this point, yeah. And

[01:01:42] Nathan: then what’s Aspen look like right now?

[01:01:43] Shawn: And Aspen is, so it’s like a newer, it’s a private mastermind that I’m running, and it’s like it was the, the idea and the dream that summer when I was in Breckenridge talking with my friends, thinking about the next 10 years of if I was gonna shut down the Focus Course, then what would I do? It would be this.

[01:02:00] And so it’s just a, it’s a small handful of people. It’s invite only. It’s, uh, it’s extremely curated. It’s for folks that are already established in their business, and it’s very just like it’s… I’m trying to be open-handed. This is our first year. So I tell everyone, like, “This is the beta year.” Um, so I’m like, “Give me space to, like screw up, and I promise, like you’ll also pay the less, the least amount.”

[01:02:20] Yeah. “Because, like if you’re gonna take a chance on me, like I’ll take a chance on you.” And so, like we get on Zoom basically every week. It’s funny, when I initially talked with everyone when they were getting ready to join, I’m like, “How often do you wanna meet, like on Zoom?” They’re like, “Once a month max.”

[01:02:34] Yeah. Like, “I don’t wanna do calls.” Then when we had our first retreat together in January, I was like, “All right. Well, we’ll see y’all in February at our next call.” And like, “No, can we… Like we wanna do every week.” Like, we like each other. Uh, so-

[01:02:46] Nathan: Yeah, before it’s, “I’m busy.”

[01:02:47] Shawn: Yeah. ”

[01:02:48] Nathan: I don’t have time for this,” and it’s like, “Oh, this is something- Yeah

[01:02:49] I’ll make time for it.”

[01:02:50] Shawn: Yeah, exactly. And it’s just, I don’t know, I’m holding it open-handedly. Yeah. And I try to keep programming right now, like to a minimum, and just allow the space to, like figure itself out- Right … with the people that are in it, like what do they need, um, yeah.

[01:03:05] Nathan: You mentioned that you’re spending 10 hours a month on the Focus Course.

[01:03:09] Mm-hmm. I bet everyone listening was expecting that sentence to end at 10 hours a week. Right. And then you’re like, “Nope.”

[01:03:14] Shawn: Yeah.

[01:03:15] Nathan: Change that by four times. Margin is something that you’ve always been very intentional about in your life.

[01:03:19] Shawn: Mm-hmm.

[01:03:21] Nathan: First, l- what are some ways that you build margin in on the business side?

[01:03:25] Shawn: Yeah. Um, when we talk about this on the internet, this always ends up being the thing that most people are like, “Wait.”

[01:03:30] Nathan: You do what?

[01:03:30] Shawn: What? You do what? So, uh, going back to Jason Fried. You and I were in Chicago, like, 10 years ago. Yeah. At, uh, one of those Basecamp 37signals things. They

[01:03:39] Nathan: were hosting a one-day workshop.

[01:03:41] Shawn: Yeah.

[01:03:42] Nathan: Uh, I think with… In their, in their office. It

[01:03:45] Shawn: was in their Chicago office, yeah.

[01:03:46] Nathan: Which has 37 seats in it. Like, and so it was a small, a small group and…

[01:03:50] Shawn: And they talked about how their teams will work in these six-week work cycles, and then they’ll ship, like, a feature for- Mm-hmm … for Basecamp, the software, and then those smaller teams, it’s usually, like, one or two designers, one or two developers, then they’ll, like, take some time off.

[01:04:04] And so I was like, “I love that idea of having a clear idea of what you’re working on, and then when you get to the end of that, like, stop and pause for a minute.” Mm. “And then review what you’ve done, plan for what you wanna do next.” And then we added in this extra week. We call it a sabbatical week. So my company goes in these, we call them eight-week work cycles, where we do six weeks of focused work, one week is a buffer, and then one week is a sabbatical where we shut the whole office down.

[01:04:30] Mm. And we just do this every eight weeks. So we’ve been doing this for, like, basically since 2017 now.

[01:04:34] Nathan: Wow.

[01:04:34] Shawn: And what I love about it is it means there’s always a light at the end of the tunnel. Mm-hmm. So no matter how busy, like, work is right now, I know there’s gonna be, like, a big break coming up.

[01:04:44] Nathan: You do a mastermind and…

[01:04:45] or, like, you host Mashup, and then maybe there’s a mastermind, and then, like, you’re all going to Craft & Commerce. Yeah. And you’re like, “Oh, but there’s a break in another two weeks,” or…

[01:04:51] Shawn: Yeah, exactly. Something like that. So my whole team, which I only have two full-time employees. It’s not like… Mm We don’t have a huge team, but we all take, like, that sabbatical break.

[01:04:59] We’ll shut the whole office down for a week at a time, and they get to go home and just be with their families or hang out or- Mm-hmm … go on trips, do whatever they want. And then for me too, I’m… I like to try to keep my working hours to 20 to 30 hours a week. And so with the Focus Course, you know, I’m about two to three hours a week on that, 10 hours a month or so, and then, uh, about 20 hours a week running Aspen.

[01:05:22] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[01:05:22] Shawn: And a lot of that, um, is mostly just it’s helping facilitate, and so it’s, like, scheduling the calls. It’s checking with everybody. Like, I have a whole, like, people concierge system that I’ve built, so I know what everyone in the group, like, what they’re focusing on, what they’re working on- Mm … what they’re feeling stuck on, so I can help coordinate, like, hot seats for people or, like, navigate conversations, or, like, bring up conversations, um, when we’re getting together and stuff like that.

[01:05:46] Just, you know, hanging out in the chat in the Slack group- Yeah … and stuff like that.

[01:05:49] Nathan: Sounds like a tough gig.

[01:05:51] Shawn: It’s tough, yeah. It’s, it’s really hard.

[01:05:53] Nathan: I’m, I’m teasing you about that. But the… It’s very intentionally designed.

[01:05:57] Shawn: It is. And I think, you know, I’m 45 this year, and- As my business has grown, I think you’re in a, a position of this as well.

[01:06:05] Like, as your business grows and you have those burdens of opportunity that we were talking about earlier, you can end up going in two directions, where your business grows and now your business is a burden. And it’s like I accidentally built myself into a life, into a business that I don’t like, and I have these, you know, like the golden handcuffs of your own business, where it’s like I have to do this stuff to keep it going.

[01:06:30] And I have tried to make decisions as I’ve grown the business of what will lead me towards, like, more breathing room and more freedom and more flexibility in my life. And I would rather trade, like, bigger revenue numbers for a business that I love that also, like, provides me with freedom, because that to me then is the long game.

[01:06:49] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[01:06:49] Shawn: Of I can keep doing the work that I love, um in, like, not a ton of hours, and it- I’m not, like, killing myself to try to make it work. I’m not constantly grinding. It’s like at some point your business needs to, like, no longer… You’re not the one who’s, like, pushing it up the hill.

[01:07:04] Nathan: Right.

[01:07:05] Shawn: And in the early days you gotta push up the hill, and you gotta go through those steps, and you gotta do the work.

[01:07:09] Um, but as it begins to mature and grow, like, hopefully you’ve made choices that the business provides you with the lifestyle that you enjoy, you have that freedom that you’re looking for, or whatever it is that you… Some people wanna hustle all the time. Right. Like, not everyone wants to work 20 hours a week and, like, go backpacking and, and do stuff like that.

[01:07:26] Nathan: I like both worlds. But,

[01:07:27] Shawn: yeah,

[01:07:27] Nathan: exactly. Um, if, if you were speaking to someone who, say, had reached the financial levels that they aspire to- Mm-hmm … right? Maybe it’s $200,000 a year, $500,000 a year, where past them would be like, “Are you kidding me? This is our life right now.”

[01:07:40] Shawn: Yeah. Right.

[01:07:42] Nathan: But they don’t have that margin, and they feel like they’re in the grind and they, they don’t wanna be.

[01:07:47] Like, what are some of the first steps that you’d have them take?

[01:07:50] Shawn: Yeah. So what’s interesting… This is a really great question. What’s interesting about our sabbaticals that we do, the eight weeks, uh, we’re one week’s off, that eighth week we don’t get… It’s not like we’re doing less work. It’s a forcing function of focus for the other six weeks.

[01:08:08] Hmm. So because we have this week we’re taking off and because we’ve been intentional coming into, like, the work cycle for those six weeks we’re working, like, we know what it is that we’re working on, and so there’s clarity there.

[01:08:19] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[01:08:19] Shawn: And when you have clarity, a lot of, like, the other busy work stuff just goes away, and you can get the same amount of work done in less time just by being clear on what you’re working on and by saying no to all the other distractions.

[01:08:33] So for us, the six- that, that eighth week after the sixth is, like, that’s just free time because we were intentional, we were diligent. And so it’s like instead of just the reward for a job well done being more work, it’s like, no, we’re gonna take that time off, and that’s how I’m going to… That’s how I’m gonna choose to spend that reward.

[01:08:50] So for someone who is at that, that level where the money’s doing well for them but they’re feeling, like, very overloaded, is I would schedule a week off.

[01:08:58] Nathan: Hmm.

[01:08:59] Shawn: And/or, like, maybe schedule a day off. And just like, “I’m gonna take that week off,” and you’ll find that by knowing you have time off coming up, you’re just a little bit more intentional.

[01:09:10] You’re a little bit more focused, right? It’s like I had a lot of stuff I had to get done before I flew out here for Boise. It’s like, man, I got so much done on, like, the Friday before I, like, packed up for my trip. And when you have that, like, built into your normal life, it’s like, oh, like, I’m clear and I’m focused, I’m intentional.

[01:09:24] I’m not wasting time. And then I’ve created free time for myself, and I’m going to choose to just keep that time free- Hmm … instead of adding in new work for myself.

[01:09:35] Nathan: Yeah. I mean, you’ve built a beautiful business and a beautiful life, which I appreciate you sharing all those details. And I think what’s been so fun is just watching you Continually reinvent what you’ve done over the years- Mm-hmm.

[01:09:47] Yeah … in a way that’s always true to who you are, and, you know, and with purpose and community and all of that. So- Yeah.

[01:09:52] Shawn: Thank you.

[01:09:53] Nathan: Yeah. Thanks for coming on the show.

[01:09:54] Shawn: Yeah.

[01:09:54] Nathan: If people wanna follow what you’re doing, um, check out the Focus course, any of those things. I mean, they can’t go straight into Aspen or any of those things, right?

[01:10:02] That’s invite only. But if they wanna c- start to, you know, have a first step into your world- Mm-hmm … where should they go?

[01:10:07] Shawn: Uh, Instagram’s the best place to find me. So I’m Sean Blanc on Instagram.

[01:10:11] Nathan: Sounds good.

[01:10:11] Shawn: Yeah.

[01:10:11] Nathan: Sean, thanks so much for coming on.

[01:10:13] Shawn: Thanks, Nathan.

[01:10:13] Nathan: If you enjoyed this episode, go to YouTube and search The Nathan Barry Show, then hit subscribe and make sure to like the video and drop a comment.

[01:10:22] I’d love to hear what some of your favorite parts of the video were, and also just who else you think we should have on the show. Thank you so much for

[01:10:29] listening.

[00:00:00] Sam: In a little under four days, we generated a little over $500,000.

[00:00:04] Nathan: Imagine making half a million dollars in just four days.

[00:00:08] Sam: We made about $198,000 in about five minutes on the webinar itself. That was wild.

[00:00:14] Nathan: This is exactly what Sam Vander Wielen did. She’s an attorney turned entrepreneur who built a legal education business for online business owners.

[00:00:22] Sam: I am proof that courses are not dead, webinars are definitely not dead, and AI isn’t killing me.

[00:00:29] Nathan: In this episode, she breaks down the webinar launch system and the easy email list strategy she runs in between launches to make it all work.

[00:00:36] Sam: One thing I’m finding that’s working really well for me for subject lines is

[00:00:41] Nathan: She walks through exactly how she drives show up rates and what she does in the webinar to convert viewers into buyers. We also get into a little personal touch she does that she says makes a big difference.

[00:00:51] Sam: My welcome sequence that I think people should steal is that in the very first email, I just say

[00:01:02] Nathan: Sam, there’s three things that I hear from creators quite often. That’s that courses are dead, launches are dead, and AI is coming for your business With that context, how’d your last launch do?

[00:01:14] Sam: My last launch went pretty well. I am proof that courses are not dead, webinars are definitely not dead, email marketing’s not dead either, and AI isn’t killing me.

[00:01:24] Nathan: Yeah. Okay, so I wanna dive into all of this. Um, let’s get specifics on, on the numbers. You’ve shared a lot of things. You know, all of your stats are open. That’s why I love reading your newsletter, is that you’re just like, “Here’s exactly how it went.” Yeah. Which that’s the way that I built my audience and shared everything.

[00:01:38] How much revenue did you do on your last product launch?

[00:01:40] Sam: So in a little under four days, we generated a little over $500,000.

[00:01:46] Nathan: Oh, we’re at 130 grand a day. Mm-hmm. I think we could, I think we could make that work.

[00:01:50] Sam: Yeah. And we made about $198,000 in about five minutes on the webinar itself. That was wild.

[00:01:57] Nathan: Okay, so I wanna dive into all the numbers around that.

[00:01:59] But first, what is the product that you’re selling, and what’s your audience?

[00:02:02] Sam: Yeah. So I serve online business owners and creators who wanna get legally protected, and I really only sell two things. I sell contract templates that are downloadable fill-in-the-blank, and then this product called The Ultimate Bundle that essentially pulls together a bunch of the contracts that they need, and then trainings that they need to learn how to start an online business legally.

[00:02:21] And The Ultimate Bundle has been my bestseller for over eight years now, and I run a live webinar that just pitches it at the end, and that’s what I had just hosted in February.

[00:02:31] Nathan: And so what, what’s the price point on both of those?

[00:02:33] Sam: It’s about 2,000 to $2,400, depending on which option. For The Ultimate

[00:02:36] Nathan: Bundle?

[00:02:37] Sam: Yes.

[00:02:37] Nathan: And then if you’re buying individual contracts, that’s, that’s

[00:02:39] Sam: less? They’re about $347 a piece.

[00:02:41] Nathan: Okay.

[00:02:42] Sam: So it adds

[00:02:42] Nathan: up. I love how you say about, and then quote a very specific number.

[00:02:45] Sam: Yes. It depends which contract- Yeah … you want to get. But yeah, about.

[00:02:49] Nathan: Uh, so the other thing that stood out to me about this, it wasn’t just a very successful launch.

[00:02:53] Sam: Mm.

[00:02:54] Nathan: But also that you have been selling these products all over, like, all along too. Like some, some people do like a big open and closed launch. Mm. That’s their one launch a year and all of that. But the, the month before the launch, how much money did you make?

[00:03:06] Sam: I got a little nervous the month before the launch- Yeah

[00:03:08] because we made, like, $175,000 just selling this product, and I was like, “Oh no, people don’t know the sale- Yeah … is coming.”

[00:03:15] Nathan: Oh, okay.

[00:03:15] Sam: So I was worried like, oh, all these people who would’ve bought during the sale aren’t, aren’t going to buy now. So I was really shocked going into the sale. And since the sale, things have not slowed at all.

[00:03:26] So that’s another thing that’s been very unusual for me this year, is typically we see a big dip. Mm. You know, after the sale, take a month or two and think-

[00:03:33] Nathan: Yeah …

[00:03:33] Sam: some of it, we siphoned some of those people. ‘Cause you pulled some of that

[00:03:35] Nathan: revenue forward

[00:03:35] Sam: and all that. Exactly. But we did not. I’ve had a bigger month every month.

[00:03:39] What, what was the, the revenue the month after

[00:03:39] Nathan: the launch?

[00:03:41] Sam: 175 again.

[00:03:43] Nathan: Mm-hmm. Okay. So we’re at 175.

[00:03:45] Sam: Mm-hmm.

[00:03:45] Nathan: 530 in the launch?

[00:03:47] Sam: Yes.

[00:03:47] Nathan: And that’s just in the four-day period. Yeah. So what was the total for the launch month?

[00:03:52] Sam: Oh yeah, so all in it would be a, a well over $600,000 month. It was probably a 650 month. Yeah.

[00:03:58] Nathan: And then do another 175 the month after. Mm-hmm. Yeah. The other thing is it w- it’s not like you waited a really long time. “Oh, it’s been two years since I’ve launched this course.” Mm-mm. How long before this launch was the previous time that you’d done a launch?

[00:04:10] Sam: It was less than three months that I had just run a $438,000 launch.

[00:04:16] Yeah. Same, and I think what’s really important for everybody to know, because everybody’s always like, “Wow, how… Like, what are all these ideas you’re coming…” This is the same webinar. Right. Taught the same way, same slides, same every pitch. Like, I mean, I pro- I hope I get better every time. Yeah. But other than that, same product.

[00:04:31] Nothing had really changed. Although, as you know, I also went to Kit Studios and I re-recorded my product itself- Right … so that I had… Like, I try to look for ways that I can introduce newness without- Yeah … really having to change the product itself.

[00:04:44] Nathan: Right, without having to make a new product or reinvent the whole thing.

[00:04:46] Yeah. But how can we keep it fresh and modern?

[00:04:49] Sam: Yeah, exactly, because with what I do, it doesn’t involve that much. I’ve added new trainings to address things like A- AI or, like, the ADA compliance. But otherwise, yeah, giving people… Even though, like, going to Kit Studios and, and refilming this course, it’s beautiful for me to look at.

[00:05:04] I know it’s gonna be beautiful for them, but then I had to look for a marketing way to, like, how do I spin this- Right … for them? So I thought of a creative strategy when I was actually at Kit Studios of how I was going to package the course differently so that it actually made it a tangible benefit to them.

[00:05:18] Nathan: Okay. So yeah, talk about… So you flew from New York- Mm-hmm … to Kit Studios, Chicago.

[00:05:22] Sam: Yes.

[00:05:23] Nathan: Uh, which we’re introducing a little thing so that that can be a train ride for you to Kit Studios, New York- Yeah. … instead of- It’s gonna

[00:05:29] Sam: be way

[00:05:29] Nathan: easier … instead of a flight. Uh, coming soon. Uh, construction is underway right now

[00:05:34] Sam: Yeah

[00:05:34] Nathan: Um, but talk about, like, how long did you spend at Kit Studios, and what was your recording process and, and all of that?

[00:05:40] Sam: Yeah, so I was there for four days and shot all day every day, and went from beginning to the end of my course. Um, we actually had so much time at the end that I knocked out four or five podcast episodes for my podcast, On Your Terms. And shoot… Like, we shot content while we were there- Mm-hmm … as well. So I was trying to knock it out, ’cause your studios are so beautiful.

[00:06:00] Nathan: And you used- Yeah … a few different studios.

[00:06:02] Sam: Yeah, we tried to switch it up, and I tried to go with the feel of like if I were doing videos that were more just a chat. Like, I have an intro video in the course. We did that more in the studio where you just get to sit. Yep. And then there’s the desk, all the different desk studios.

[00:06:14] And the

[00:06:14] Nathan: teleprompter and-

[00:06:15] Sam: Yes … and

[00:06:15] Nathan: all that.

[00:06:16] Sam: It was so… It’s such plug and play. It’s so easy.

[00:06:18] Nathan: Um, I wanna get into ad strategy and all of that- Yeah … in a little bit, because you did some really unique stuff there, um, recorded in the studio. But before that, let’s go back to the launch itself. So if we can break down…

[00:06:29] First, getting a sense for audience size. Mm-hmm. Right? ‘Cause if you did those… Those are very impressive numbers.

[00:06:34] Sam: Mm-hmm.

[00:06:34] Nathan: But if you had, like, a quarter million subscribers, they’d be a little less impressive.

[00:06:39] Sam: Yeah.

[00:06:39] Nathan: So how many email subscribers do you have on Kit?

[00:06:41] Sam: I was about 50,000 at the time before the launch.

[00:06:44] So as we were ramping up, which I take about a month to ramp before. Mm-hmm. See, I have a very specific teaser strategy that I walk through. And so I ramped for about a month, which meant all of January and the beginning of February was all spent with my newsletter on Kit just telling people- Yeah … this is coming.

[00:06:58] So we were hovering around 50. We had 11,500 people sign up for the webinar itself. Yeah. So that pushed me, and now I’m over 66,000.

[00:07:06] Nathan: Do you know the number of sales that came from, you know, that 50,000 or so- Mm-hmm … that had been on the list for a while versus the 11,000 who joined new?

[00:07:14] Sam: Yes. We did have a lot of people.

[00:07:15] I do see sometimes that it takes about six months for my people to convert, which I know I told you I personally am fine with. I know that that h- that number would not be acceptable to a lot of people. For me, I- I think

[00:07:26] Nathan: your, I think your total

[00:07:27] Sam: revenue numbers-

[00:07:27] Nathan: I’m doing … would be acceptable to a lot of

[00:07:29] Sam: people Yeah, that, that is true.

[00:07:31] I’ve also just always been in the mindset of like, this is the long game. I’m here. Yeah. I have the same product, so I’m not switching to something else. If it doesn’t work for you for another six months, great. Mm-hmm. Doesn’t matter to me. I’ll be here. I honestly think that relaxed confidence in selling has really helped me in the moment because people who come to my webinars tell me like, “I didn’t feel like I had to buy.

[00:07:49] I wanted to.”

[00:07:50] Nathan: Right, ’cause you’re like, “Buy it or

[00:07:51] Sam: don’t.” Yeah, or not.

[00:07:52] Nathan: It’s fine with me. Like…

[00:07:52] Sam: Yeah. Actually, it’s part of my strategy in the webinar itself. I will always say, I, uh, I… First of all, I ask for consent in the beginning to say, “After you’ve attended this live training, this free next hour is going to be very valuable.”

[00:08:05] Um, is it okay with you if at the end of this training if I share with you about my ultimate bundle program? Say yes in the comments. In the comments, we had thousands and thousands of people there live, so everyone was going crazy saying, “Yes, yes, yes.” Yes, of course. And then I would say, “And by the way, that’s if it’s a good fit for you and for me.”

[00:08:20] And I think this is something people don’t do a lot, but I will often tell them, “I don’t want you to buy it if you’re not the right fit for me because I’m, I know I’m gonna have to deal with you on the back-” Right … end, I don’t want to do that. And so it, it’s like almost like now I have to like try out for her.

[00:08:33] Right. You know? It’s not just like an automatic. She doesn’t wanna sell to me. Yeah. It’s different.

[00:08:37] Nathan: Do, do you have the br- uh, the breakdown of- So different … what percentage of, of sales came from-

[00:08:42] Sam: Mm …

[00:08:43] Nathan: the, the longterm list versus the 11,000 new?

[00:08:46] Sam: Yeah, so we think over half the sales of people had already been on the list- On the list

[00:08:50] for a while. Yeah.

[00:08:51] Nathan: Yep.

[00:08:51] Sam: Yeah. I had been nurturing them for a long time.

[00:08:53] Nathan: So about half new, about half… Yes. Yep. Yeah. Mm-hmm. That makes sense. And, you know, many of those people- probably who’ve been on the list for a long time, have already purchased at some point in the past.

[00:09:01] Sam: Yes, exactly. And something I’m seeing that’s new now since my book came out last year, When I Start My Business I’ll Be Happy, I’m now seeing this influx, which everyone disagreed with me at the time because my book is about marketing and online business, not legal stuff, and everyone said, “That’s not gonna drive anything to your business.”

[00:09:17] Yeah. This was the first launch that we systematically saw people saying, “I actually discovered Sam through the book, then joined her newsletter- Mm … and then bought the ultimate bundle.” So that was a really interesting path to, for us to start studying now.

[00:09:30] Nathan: Okay, so about 50/50- Yeah … of where it’s coming from.

[00:09:32] What did you use to drive those 11,000 new signups for the

[00:09:36] Sam: webinar? So I lean hard on my email list itself. Mm. So really, you know, teasing them that this was coming, really driving home… Um, first of all, I chronicled my journey to go to Kit Studios in Chicago- Yeah … to let them know I was refilming the bundle, that I was doing that because a sale was coming, a live training was coming.

[00:09:52] Teasing to the email list that this was coming, so really pushing it to the list. Um, o- otherwise, on social media, it’s primarily Instagram. Mm-hmm. And then my podcast, On Your Terms, um, you know, I flipped it. We have dynamic ads, so I flipped the ads, all the ads for all the episodes.

[00:10:07] Nathan: Promoted your webinar.

[00:10:08] Sam: Promoting… I’ve only ever done that, yeah, it just points to my own product or my own- Right … webinar or the newsletter. Um, so pointed to that, and then my ads strategy.

[00:10:17] Nathan: Yeah, so let’s dive in on the meta ads.

[00:10:19] Sam: Yeah. So I spent… It’s so funny because when I talk about, this is another thing that I think is a misnomer in our industry, that when I talk about this launch, you know, I got some snarky replies from people that were like, “Yeah, I bet you spent $498,000 on ads.”

[00:10:32] And I’m like- Right,

[00:10:33] Nathan: or affiliates

[00:10:33] Sam: or whatever else … actually, yeah, something. Which we don’t really do, by the way. Yeah. So that’s another thing. But yeah, I spent $20,000 on the, uh, s- like, signup ads. Okay. So all the invites to the webinar, and then another about $3,000 on the sales portion of the ad. So we were about 24,000 total on ad spend- Mm

[00:10:50] for a 500-plus thousand dollar return. So I think that, that was good. But I think in terms of, like, the strategy behind ads, I think one mistake people make is that they… I don’t know, it’s almost like people are such good creators and then they go to create ads and they think it’s something completely different.

[00:11:07] Mm-hmm. And they forget that these ads are just showing up on Instagram or Facebook or wherever you’re posting. Right. So as fluid and organic as you can make them, the better. And so I, a long time ago, just started, like from a mindset perspective, just switched my mindset that my ads are just like another social channel, and I just create things, sometimes directly for them, ’cause there’s some, like, twists I have to do with the way I talk, and so I will do that.

[00:11:30] And then yeah, we test it and see how it goes. I also do it in the reverse, that if I create some native content for Instagram, for example, and it goes well, I actually take that and turn it into an ad. And I do not mean boosting. Mm, mm. People will often be like, “Oh, you just boost.” It’s completely different because we can, we have so much more targeting capability.

[00:11:48] Yeah.

[00:11:48] Nathan: So then, in that case, you’re seeing, you posted a reel, it did really well, and so you’re actually downloading that-

[00:11:53] Sam: Yes …

[00:11:54] Nathan: and then uploading it again as an ad. And ’cause you know the organic content performed well.

[00:11:59] Sam: Exactly. And something I’ve been doing for the last few months, which is new to me, is that I am doing ads in real time.

[00:12:06] So when I, I just… I got lucky this time around that there happened to be the TikTok thing had broke that the TikTok terms had changed. Mm. TikTok had gotten sold, so now when people were opening TikTok, it was giving them some warning about the changes in their privacy and the terms of use for them. So this started to become a big thing on social media.

[00:12:24] In the past, I would’ve been like, “We’re mid-promo. I can’t, I’m not gonna do anything now.” Instead, I literally sat on the floor of my office. I recorded a really quick- Mm-hmm … face-to-camera reel. It went crazy on social media. We s- we got hundreds of sign-ups for the live webinar from it.

[00:12:40] Nathan: Yep.

[00:12:40] Sam: And I texted my ads manager, and I was like, “Turn it into an ad.”

[00:12:42] And then it blew up. Yeah.

[00:12:44] Nathan: Yeah. I got, I got some ad, uh, uh- Yeah,

[00:12:46] Sam: sorry. … some

[00:12:47] Nathan: ad footage for you. And that’s gonna- Yeah … that’s gonna work really well.

[00:12:50] Sam: Yeah, yeah.

[00:12:52] Nathan: Something I heard recently from Gary Vee where he was saying, “If you’re running ad creative that is not tested as organic-

[00:12:56] Sam: Mm …

[00:12:57] Nathan: like, what are you doing?”

[00:12:58] Right. You’re just wasting money, you know? Yeah. But if you can have a lot of shots on goal for organic content, and you see, like, “Oh, that hook actually works. This actually works,” right? It’s tested for free.

[00:13:08] Sam: Yeah.

[00:13:08] Nathan: Not for free, ’cause it takes a huge amount of time. Yeah. But no, no out-of-pocket cost.

[00:13:13] Sam: Mm-hmm.

[00:13:13] Nathan: And then you run those ads, then of, of course they’re gonna perform better and, and get a much lower, you know, cost per view or cost per webinar sign-up.

[00:13:20] Sam: Yeah. And my tip is the better you get at doing that, eventually, like, when I’m recording my organic content for Instagram now, I will pause in the video. Uh, I’ll do a call to action, and then I will- Mm … pause in the video. Because a lot of times we don’t like to use ManyChat for ads because it can screw it up.

[00:13:36] Okay. And you can kind of get, I don’t know what the term, maybe shadow banned or something from, from Instagram. So I’ll have to say, like, “Click the link.” So whenever you record, just get in the habit of doing these alternative calls to action so that if that video does well, you already have the cut and can just run with it as an ad.

[00:13:53] Nathan: So that’s where we’re recording the reel.

[00:13:55] Sam: Mm-hmm.

[00:13:56] Nathan: It’s g- you know it’s gonna be chopped up and, and, uh, refined a bit.

[00:13:59] Sam: Yeah.

[00:13:59] Nathan: And then at the end, you’re gonna be say, “Comment ‘webinar’- Mm-hmm … and I’ll send you the link to sign up,” pause. Click the link. Mm-hmm. And, and then one is for the organic reel, and then the other is for the ad

[00:14:10] Sam: is for an ad. And then the kinda like Harvard PhD level of this gets to be, which I do now, is that I also, when I record these, I will be like, I record for my evergreen webinar and for the live at the same time. Oh. So when I do one, I will say like, “I’m holding a free live class on Monday, February 20th,” whatever.

[00:14:28] And then I’ll pause and be like, “I have a free live class called Five Steps to Legally Protect.” And so I’ll do them each- Right … so that I’m not doing this twice. And I also, any time I like say a date, I just do that over again. An

[00:14:39] Nathan: evergreen version of

[00:14:40] Sam: it. So helpful. Because then if you, if you are running ads, you, you very quickly have an asset you can run with.

[00:14:45] Nathan: Right. Yeah. And then you’re not like, “Well, I gotta go get on the plane and fly to Chicago.” Gotta do it again. ‘Cause I gotta be in the same studio Yeah …

[00:14:51] Sam: with the same look. No. I was like, “I’m doing this once.” Yeah. So we’re doing this once, and we keep reusing it, and it’s fine. Right. Yeah, it’s good. Yeah.

[00:14:56] Nathan: Um, I wanna dive in on the launch more in a second, but this like- I almost think creators should do more quarterly content sessions

[00:15:04] Sam: That’s what I do.

[00:15:05] Nathan: Where you just- Mm-hmm … block out a chunk of time, and you’re like, “Look, this week or these four days or whatever is just all about recording, and I’m gonna go somewhere.” Do all the work to set up my home office or my home studio however I want it, or fly to get studios or whatever, and batch a whole bunch of this.

[00:15:20] I’m gonna use the weeks before it for prep. Yep. And then I’m gonna get my phone out of the way and all the distractions. Like, no, this, this week is all about content.

[00:15:27] Sam: It’s so smart. That’s exactly what I do. So I basically, the phases are, like, I research, look at topics, figure out. Mm-hmm. Then I’ll, you know, sketch them out, do some sort of scripting.

[00:15:35] Or at least I’ll know a hook, a call to action. I know, like, a rough skeleton. And then I will go somewhere, and I usually knock it out within a day or two. Yeah. I recommend people just look a couple of months ahead, and look, like, you know, you have some sort of sale, or you have something you wanna promo. I have the rule that the day that the promo ends, the very next day I turn back to newsletter growth.

[00:15:54] So I record, like, a little batch of content. Mm-hmm. On every single batch day, I have a whole set of, like, things that just have a call to action to my newsletter.

[00:16:03] Nathan: Okay.

[00:16:03] Sam: Yeah.

[00:16:04] Nathan: All right, so I mean, I wanna dive into newsletter growth now. Yeah. What are the things that make the biggest difference for you in growing your newsletter?

[00:16:10] Sam: Yeah, so one of the things has been so helpful is, like, with this organic content on social media. I was telling you the other night, like, just going straight to the newsletter itself. Mm-hmm. Just getting into this mindset that my email is good and everybody- Yeah … should get it. And I think that that’s the reason, like, that’s the way to sell it.

[00:16:25] Mm-hmm. I don’t need to necessarily always have a freebie as a buffer. I, I still use them, and they’re still helpful. But that, I think, really accelerated my growth. And then really, like, forecasting on social media like, “Hey, guys, next week I’m talking about this in my newsletter.” Mm-hmm. “In case you don’t know, I’ve got this weekly newsletter called Sam’s Sidebar that 66,000 of your peers get.

[00:16:45] Like, comment ‘Sidebar’ and get it now.” And I start to see a pretty good uptick in signups.

[00:16:50] Nathan: Yeah, so there’s two things about that. One, most people when they say, “Sign up for my newsletter I write every week”

[00:16:55] Sam: Mm. Yeah …

[00:16:56] Nathan: it’s not a compelling call to action. What value do we get? And then honestly, the newsletter’s not that good.

[00:17:01] Sam: Yeah.

[00:17:01] Nathan: And so I mean, you obsess over your newsletter. I

[00:17:04] Sam: do.

[00:17:04] Nathan: Mm-hmm. Right? There’s so many things that, where you’re like, “All right, how do I make something that’s truly great?” Yeah. Where the product is really good. And I see that, you know, Sahil Bloom is the same way. He does lead magnet stuff like that as well.

[00:17:14] Mm-hmm. But it’s the newsletter. Go sign up for The Curiosity Chronicle.

[00:17:16] Sam: Yeah.

[00:17:17] Nathan: And, uh, he can really promote that ’cause he’s really, really proud of it. And then he can talk about how much work he’s putting into it and whatever else. But then the tactic that I really like that you do is you almost get a weekly lead magnet-

[00:17:29] Sam: Mm-hmm

[00:17:29] Nathan: that’s fresh and, uh, current. You could do it the week before. Some people do it, you know, the n- the day before, the night before. Mm. Where they say, “Hey, I just wrote about all of this.” It might have the hook in it or, you know, what they’re thinking about, the problem they’re answering in the newsletter.

[00:17:44] Here’s the, a screenshot or a teaser of it. And say, “It’s going out tomorrow at 10:00 AM. Sign up.”

[00:17:50] Sam: Yeah.

[00:17:51] Nathan: And so that’s basically a lead magnet. Someone’s like, “Oh, I want this,” you know, a very specific thing, and then it’s like, great. And that’s just this week’s newsletter.

[00:17:58] Sam: Yeah. I think there’s two things creators can lean into: exclusivity and urgency.

[00:18:03] Because we really have no urgency with getting people to take action to sign up for our newsletter, unless you tell them, like, “If you don’t sign up now, you’re not getting my thing on Tuesday, and you’ll be-” Right … “missed the window.” This is going and it’s gone. Yeah. And then also being like, “That’s the only place I’m sharing this information.”

[00:18:16] Right. So when I had this launch, for example, I said, “On Tuesday, I’m giving just the people on my email list the financial breakdown of what I spent, how much money, what went into ads, what I think contributed, why webinars aren’t dead, and if you sign up.” And we had a crazy amount of signups, and my book sold out on Amazon.

[00:18:35] Nathan: Yeah, and that’s, like, you’re giving a behind-the-scenes peek into, like, this is what worked. Yeah. And, and people say, like, “Ah, well, I’ll get that any time.” And you’re like, “You can’t.”

[00:18:44] Sam: Yeah, that’s

[00:18:44] Nathan: helpful. Because if you’re not on the list, it, it will be gone. It’s gone. And so it’s built-in, uh, freshness and built-in urgency-

[00:18:53] Sam: Yeah

[00:18:53] Nathan: and a unique call to action. And so people can do that, like- If you write a weekly newsletter, you can do this every single week.

[00:18:59] Sam: Yep.

[00:19:00] Nathan: Tease the content, get the signups. And even if it’s getting 10 or 20 subscribers, like that compounds.

[00:19:06] Sam: It really does, and they refer other people. Mm-hmm. And I, and I see… I can see also people will send people my Instagram story or the post or whatever, so it starts to spread that way.

[00:19:14] Oh, yeah. It gives, now it gives it something shareable, so that’s helpful. I’ve also used it to source, like, voice of customer research- Mm-hmm … of like what do you want to know about this topic, and then that’s the email that I write. So that I, I use in the reverse as well.

[00:19:27] Nathan: Oh, so you’d say like, “Okay, next week I’m writing it-

[00:19:29] Sam: Mm-hmm

[00:19:30] Nathan: um, all about the legal traps that-

[00:19:33] Sam: Mm-hmm …

[00:19:34] Nathan: you know. Or the biggest legal mistakes that creators make.

[00:19:37] Sam: Mm-hmm.

[00:19:37] Nathan: What do you wanna know?

[00:19:38] Sam: Yep.

[00:19:39] Nathan: People are like, “Well, first I wanna know what are the biggest legal tra- Yeah. … legal mistakes that creators make. Yeah. But second, could you answer this specifically? Yeah.

[00:19:44] And you’re like, “Great.” Right? You know.

[00:19:45] Sam: Yeah. Even with the launch, I was like I, “What do you guys wanna know?” Yeah. ‘Cause, like, I can sit here and share impressive stats all day long, but I really wanna know what are you concerned about, which was really eye-opening for me because what they wanted to know about was not what I initially intended to write about.

[00:20:00] What’s an

[00:20:00] Nathan: example of how that was different?

[00:20:02] Sam: Well, they for sure, my audience was more interested in how, for example, somebody could do this without a team. So it was, it was interesting for me even from a mindset perspective that a lot of people thought that this was something I could only do because I have a team.

[00:20:16] Mm-hmm. For one, I think they misunderstand how big, as you know, how big my team is, AKA how little it is. And-

[00:20:21] Nathan: You have what, 25, 30 people running this operation?

[00:20:24] Sam: I have one full-time employee. Yeah. And so I think the people think I’m, like, surrounded by this gigantic thing, so that’s one. And two is what they don’t realize is that Lindsay on my team is implementing the exact launch system that I was doing before she even got there, right?

[00:20:37] Mm-hmm. And so, yes, it’s gotten bigger th- ’cause the audience has gotten bigger, and I’ve gotten better at selling it, but that’s… You know, of course everyone is helping, and they’re so valuable. But it was interesting for me to have some real talk with them to say, “Stop counting yourself out just because you don’t have employees yet.

[00:20:51] You can-

[00:20:52] Nathan: Right …

[00:20:52] Sam: you can still do a killer launch. Stop buying into the stories that you can’t do this because you don’t have anybody yet.”

[00:20:57] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:20:57] Sam: Yeah.

[00:20:58] Nathan: Yeah. That’s great. Okay, so going back into the launch. The, there’s a few other unique things that you did. Uh, I wanna talk about the videos-

[00:21:06] Sam: Mm …

[00:21:06] Nathan: that you did around the launch because you do all these things that are highly scalable.

[00:21:10] Sam: Yeah.

[00:21:10] Nathan: And then here you are doing some things that are totally unscalable.

[00:21:13] Sam: Yeah.

[00:21:14] Nathan: What, what was your process around sending personalized videos?

[00:21:16] Sam: I think you have to balance it out, right? Yeah. Because people are like, it- you become robotic, especially in today’s world, everybody thinks that you’re not really there, you’re not answering your emails.

[00:21:24] Yeah, you’re just AI. Yeah, you’re AI. I’m AI generated right now. Um, and

[00:21:28] Nathan: so

[00:21:28] Sam: the We

[00:21:28] Nathan: don’t have a real guest on

[00:21:28] Sam: this podcast. Yeah. Nathan’s just talking to a couch. Yeah. Um, but I, I found out about this video as platform, which is, you know, owned by the company Typeform, where you can essentially send little videos, um, audio notes, or text messages to people.

[00:21:43] So my first instinct was actually to start using it to crowdsource a voice of customer research. So the way I built it into the funnel was that on Kit, you know, once somebody signs up for the webinar, they immediately get tagged as, uh, registered for the webinar, and then that triggers a sequence that sends them an email saying, “Hey, Nathan, I saw you signed up for my webinar.

[00:22:02] What’s one thing you’re hoping, uh, that I talk about in this class?” Mm. When you click on that, it asks you, “Would you like to send Sam a video, a voice note, or a text?” Regardless of whatever they do, I send them a personalized video back. So I’ve gotten my process down to about two minutes each per person.

[00:22:18] I’ve gotten thousands of them at this point. But I generally am just thanking them. I mean, my, my kind of strategy behind it is to thank them, to give them some personalized attention. Mm-hmm. I always use their first name. I always mention very specifics, anything that they’ve shared with me, and then I’m reminding them when the webinar is.

[00:22:36] This is huge, ’cause I’ve been working really hard on improving show up rates. Yeah. That is a very difficult part of webinars. So I’m r- taking that chance to remind them. I take the chance to say, “Add it to your calendar.” I have a whole little joke schtick thing in there. I’ll be like, “I’ll wait. You can do it right now.

[00:22:50] Like, I’ll just sit here.” And then, um, I’m saying why their question is important and how I’m gonna address it in the webinar. And then I ask them to let me know if they’re coming live or not. Mm. To respond back, and it starts a conversation.

[00:23:02] Nathan: Well, and then you get this, like, micro-commitment where someone’s like- Yeah

[00:23:04] “Yeah, of course, Sam, I’m coming.” And then they’re like, “Oh, well, this ran long and I’m not… Oh, but I told Sam I was coming.”

[00:23:11] Sam: Yes. ”

[00:23:12] Nathan: And I told her that after she’d sent me a personalized video.”

[00:23:14] Sam: Yes. I know, and people… ‘Cause I found in the past that even though we put it 100 times in the email that it was a- Yeah

[00:23:20] hour training or 90-minute training, people would say, “How long do I need to be there?” So in my video, I’d say, like, “If you can go in your calendar and block this off, you know, for this amount of time,” like… And then I started doing this thing where I’ve said to people, like, if my webinar’s in February, for example, I’ll say, like, “Are you committed to February being the month that you finally start this online business?

[00:23:38] Like, I know you probably had- Mm … this idea for a while. You and 10,000 other people have signed up for this, and, like, we’re all doing it. You want… Like, you want in? Let’s do it together.”

[00:23:47] Nathan: And so- For this launch, how many videos did you send?

[00:23:50] Sam: Oh, there were 583 videos. But this is why people always laugh about this, and I’m like, “But this is all I have to do.”

[00:23:58] Right. That’s what I think that people don’t understand. Well, some people understand how easy my business really is, and how I’ve built it out, is that this is essentially my job now, is to do that, create the content, and then show up on the webinar. And so while everybody else on the team is doing an incredible job setting up sequences in Kit, and landing pages, and all of these different things, like, that’s my job.

[00:24:17] Mm-hmm. That’s what I have to do. Yeah. And two minutes for a $2,000 sale is not bad. Yeah.

[00:24:24] Nathan: That’ll work.

[00:24:25] Sam: Yeah, it’s not that bad. That’ll work. Yeah.

[00:24:26] Nathan: There’s some leverage in that. Yeah. Someone might be like, “Well, Sam, you’re trading time for money.” Yeah. And you’re like, “Okay.”

[00:24:31] Sam: Yeah, that’s a good amount of time. I’m willing to trade that amount of time.

[00:24:34] I also like, I wish that more creators in our industry understood, like, especially when people use the language like webinars are dead, and all of this stuff. I’m like, maybe it’s dead the way people used to do it. Right. But I think that th- this is the point, and maybe that’s why, like you were saying, how my business is so automated on the one hand, and then I’m doing something that’s, like, super not scalable.

[00:24:52] Mm-hmm. I think that’s the point, is you have to, like, counterbalance these two things because people are so used to this. They’re so used to being sold in that way, and they’re like, “Oh, I’m gonna go to this training. It’s not gonna be helpful. She’s just gonna pitch me at the end and tell me everything that I wanna know is actually- Mm

[00:25:06] in the paid thing.” And so I really try to overcome a lot of these objections head-on.

[00:25:11] Nathan: Yeah. You know, it makes me think of this extreme focus on automation and scalability- Mm … allows you to do these other things.

[00:25:18] Sam: Yes.

[00:25:18] Nathan: Like, I had Will Guidara on the podcast, and he was talking about, you know, unreasonable hospitality, and you’re spending this money to create these amazing experiences.

[00:25:25] And it sounds like this, like, well, sure, if you just throw money at the problem, then you can do- Mm … all of these crazy things. And he was like, “No, no, no, you have to be militant about 95% of your expenses in the business.” Yeah. Like, every penny you know exactly what’s happening. You know, that sounds like the way you are with automation.

[00:25:40] Sam: Yeah.

[00:25:40] Nathan: And so that you can be completely frivolous, extravagant with the last 5%. Yeah. And you can say, “Okay, we’re gonna spend this on creating an amazing experience,” or, or all that. And so you’re automating so much of it-

[00:25:54] Sam: Mm-hmm …

[00:25:54] Nathan: so that in these one categories you can flip to the other side where someone goes, “Wow, Sam has over 60,000 people on her newsletter.”

[00:26:00] Sam: Mm-hmm. ”

[00:26:01] Nathan: And she sent me a personalized video.” And just people are like, “What?”

[00:26:05] Sam: Yeah.

[00:26:05] Nathan: And you’re like, look, if I set aside a few hours a week or, you know, a chunk of ti- a day b- of my launch-

[00:26:10] Sam: Yeah …

[00:26:11] Nathan: I can do that.

[00:26:11] Sam: Yeah. There was nothing else for me to do. Mm. Because my launches are such, like, well-oiled machines, there is nothing else for me to do.

[00:26:18] My job is done. Right. And so it was, like, a really proud moment when I was responding to all these, realizing, like, I’ve built this thing out in a way that this is the only thing for me to do. I’m also a big believer in surprise and delight along the way. Mm. And, like, little ways that, how do we sprinkle that in, uh, with having the kinds of businesses that we do?

[00:26:35] So there are a couple of different things that I do.

[00:26:37] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:26:37] Sam: Uh, this being one of them. Also, writing handwritten thank you notes to everyone who buys. Wait, really? Uh, yes. Mm-hmm, everyone who bought a ultimate bundle got a handwritten thank you note.

[00:26:45] Nathan: How many people was that?

[00:26:47] Sam: We had 329.

[00:26:49] Nathan: That’s a lot of thank you notes.

[00:26:49] Sam: Mm-hmm. And that’s been, like, a business staple since day one. Right. And so just little things like that. And then I have, like, a whole little loop, like, flywheel built into the thank you note, that at the end of the thank you note I ask them to reach out to me on Instagram, which then gets them to follow me, but I ask them to answer a question.

[00:27:03] So usually I’ll ask them, “What’s a book that you’ve read recently that you love-” Oh … “that you’d recommend?” Um, or, “If you were a pasta noodle shape, what shape would you be?” That’s another one. People like that. And so then it gets them to reach out to you. And it’s so funny to me how many customers never followed us on Instagram.

[00:27:18] Mm-hmm. And now they’re following us, and now I think, well, they’re gonna see my podcast. And then they send the podcast episode to a friend. Yeah. Or they see me sharing about the book, and they share the book with a friend, you know, or something like that.

[00:27:28] Nathan: Okay, so- You’re doing these incredibly unscalable things.

[00:27:30] Sam: Yeah.

[00:27:31] Nathan: So some unscalable things that I do is I send every team member on their work anniversary or their birthday- Mm … a handwritten card.

[00:27:37] Sam: Oh, that’s nice.

[00:27:38] Nathan: So at any point, in, like in my backpack right now in the other room, I have like 10 cards that I need to write- Oh … for the month of April, right?

[00:27:45] Sam: Mm-hmm.

[00:27:46] Nathan: And, you know, when I’m on the flight home today, I’ll write four or five of them.

[00:27:49] Sam: But you’re batching it.

[00:27:50] Nathan: But I’m batching it. You

[00:27:50] Sam: found a way to-

[00:27:51] Nathan: Oh, yeah. Yeah. Of course. Yeah. And I have my team helping me, right? Yeah. Where they’re saying, “Okay, this per-” You know, I’m not remembering, “Oh, shoot. Okay- You’re carrying around

[00:27:58] it’s Chelsea’s work anniversary,” you know, or all of that. Like-

[00:27:59] Sam: Yeah …

[00:28:00] Nathan: it’s like, “Here you go.”

[00:28:01] Sam: That would be a lot. Yeah.

[00:28:02] Nathan: Um, it’s preferable. You could also, you could batch it for the entire year if you wanted. Yes. In this case we just do it, um, a month at a time. And so you’re doing that, where you’re doing this totally unscalable thing.

[00:28:11] But again, you’re like, “Well, they paid $2,000.”

[00:28:14] Sam: Mm-hmm.

[00:28:14] Nathan: Right? And so I wanna create this experience. It’s the sort of thing, no one does that.

[00:28:19] Sam: Yeah. I think, I, this is where I was going before, mentally at least. That I- I remember that, you know, I think that people in this industry lose sight sometimes of who their customers are.

[00:28:28] Mm. And I think that’s why we have a little bit of ourselves to blame for why webinars maybe don’t, quote, unquote, “work” or people don’t think courses work. Right. That, I hear people talk about this a lot, I write about this a lot in my book, about how like people are so focused on what’s in it for them when they build a business.

[00:28:44] Mm. And like how much money they make- Right … and how much this is gonna impact their lifestyle. And I really try to stay in touch as best as I can with what this purchase means about my customer, that this is a big deal to them. And so this is not just to me, like another checkbox, another person I can just get to spend two grand, like look how cool.

[00:29:02] It’s not a game to me. I know it’s a big deal. People write to me often. I am, I am the first purchase. You and I probably are- Right … the first purchases for a lot of people when they’re starting out. And so I remember what it was like, and it’s scary to spend that much money. You don’t know if this thing is gonna work.

[00:29:18] And I am often, I ask people at the beginning of my webinar, “What if we stopped acting like this thing wasn’t gonna work and just started planning for it to work out?” Mm. And, like that is essentially what I need you to do. I need you to shift into this like, “No, I’m headed there. Now I just know I need, I need to get Kit set up, I need to get my legal stuff in place.

[00:29:35] Like, I need to get business insurance.” Right. “And stop acting like this thing isn’t gonna work.” That’s a huge shift that I’m asking people to make.

[00:29:41] Nathan: Mm.

[00:29:41] Sam: And it’s a lot of money. Yeah.

[00:29:44] Nathan: And the fact that you’ve worked in a flywheel around it to drive back not only social media followers, but specifically engagement.

[00:29:51] Sam: Yes.

[00:29:52] Nathan: And then you’re creating a feeling around your brand.

[00:29:54] Sam: Yeah.

[00:29:55] Nathan: And that’s such an important thing.

[00:29:56] Sam: I think it’s why people showed up so big when I wrote a book. Mm-hmm. And, like, this is why people were like, “I’ll do anything, and I’ll tell people about it.” I had people fly in for the book party. Like, people were so kind.

[00:30:07] And I just got a message on Instagram from a woman, like, two days ago who I was talking about how I wanna expand my writing, and I’m doing different, like, personal essays. And she said, “No offense to you, I don’t follow you for the legal stuff anymore. Like, I got what I needed from you.” And nobody wants to hear about it- Right

[00:30:21] once they’ve gotten it done, you know? And so she’s like, “I’ve stuck around for this stuff. And I bought your book.”

[00:30:26] Nathan: I love that she’s like, “No offense- Yeah. “… but I follow you for you.” Yeah. And you’re like, “Not offended.”

[00:30:31] Sam: Yeah, not offended. Thank you. Yeah, no, I get it. But, like, I… That’s been something that’s been, you know, interesting and kind of fun for me from…

[00:30:38] I mean, I’m obsessed with marketing, so, like, it’s interesting for me from a marketing perspective of like, yeah, once you get it done, like, if I went and got a filling at the dentist, I don’t need to get his newsletter about, like, what a filling is and when you need to get it. And, like, I’ve done it already.

[00:30:52] Right. It’s over. So I know that they don’t need to continue to hear about LLCs. How do I keep people here? Mm-hmm. You know, how do I… I wanna just stay top of mind. I want them to refer my newsletter to other people. I want them, if they’re in a coaching group, to be like, “Hey, I know this girl who does legal stuff.”

[00:31:06] Yeah.

[00:31:07] Nathan: Right.

[00:31:07] Sam: Yeah.

[00:31:08] Nathan: What are some other little touch points or unscalable things or surprise and delight moments that you’ve worked into your customer life cycle?

[00:31:14] Sam: I think a lot of people think it’s crazy that I’m still the customer support person in our community. Okay. So I have a VA, Leanne, who’s wonderful, who basically tackles questions like, “Where can I find this file?”

[00:31:26] Or, “This thing’s not downloading.” Mm-hmm. But the legal stuff, I’m still supporting everyone. Um, and with, like, 5,500 members, people think that’s pretty crazy. How

[00:31:33] Nathan: much time in a given week does that take you?

[00:31:35] Sam: I check Monday, Wednesday, Friday, ’cause my promise to them is that they always get a response within 48 hours.

[00:31:39] Okay. So as long as I’m on a Monday, Wednesday, Friday schedule. And I schedule an hour, but it often takes me much less than that. Yeah. So I think that’s sometimes also the truth of it, is that when we, we build these things up in our head, but then when you sit down to do it, it’s not that bad. I’ve also really created the bundle with every single thing that they need, so a lot of times my answers are like, “This is right here.”

[00:31:58] Yeah. “I can help you with that.” I try to do a lot of other surprise and delight things. Like, people respond to my newsletters… Because I write a lot about grief, since I lost my parents. Mm-hmm. Uh, a lot of people write really beautiful things to me, uh, in response to my newsletter, and I will send them a video, um, as well.

[00:32:13] Yeah. So then a lot of people will be really shocked about that. Um, we try to send, like, little gifts to customers when we hear things or things happen, so I’ll ask someone on the team, like, “Can you send them…” I have some people who’ve been in the Ultimate Bundle for eight years. Mm. And so I’ve seen them grow and evolve.

[00:32:27] Um, so I try to do a lot of things like that, too. Now,

[00:32:30] Nathan: you mentioned they’ve been in there for eight years. Yep. Is that a recurring payment of any kind?

[00:32:34] Sam: Nope. That was a mistake on my end. Okay. If, yeah, we can get to the portion that I would do differently. Yeah. I… You know, it’s funny, I named my business Sam Vander Wielen because I also didn’t think it was going anywhere, and when I started this product itself, I was like, “No one’s going to buy this, so-” Mm-hmm.

[00:32:50] “Like, why do I have to worry about this being support for long term?” So I don’t offer, I don’t advertise that they get lifetime support. Mm-hmm. So it’s been something that I have considered more recently as the business has grown so much and it does get more difficult for me, that I’ve thought maybe we start to time limit this.

[00:33:06] Maybe if people continue on with the support, this is more of, like, a membership. Yeah.

[00:33:10] Nathan: Yeah. Where you say, “It can- includes a full year of support”-

[00:33:14] Sam: Yes …

[00:33:14] Nathan: you know, or something like that.

[00:33:15] Sam: Yeah. I think what’s hard for me in my industry is that I never wanna dip into legal advice, since I can’t do that. Mm-hmm.

[00:33:21] And so I don’t want people to think, “Oh, well, I just paid for that, so now I want that.” There are my peers who do that, and, you know, everybody has their different comfort level with risk. Yeah. I am not comfortable with that, and I’m very honest and upfront with them. Um, I guess in the, in a positive way, though, it also allows me to hold my boundaries.

[00:33:37] Mm-hmm. So when someone’s been in it for five years and they’re asking me about, like, a contract for their dog walk- walker’s cousin, and I’m like, “That’s not included in the bundle and that’s not what I do,” and I feel much more confident- Yeah … saying things like that. Yeah.

[00:33:49] Nathan: Yeah, that makes sense. Are there other things that- You know, with hindsight you would do differently in setting up your business?

[00:33:54] Sam: Yeah. Well, I wouldn’t have named it after me. That was stupid. Uh, I didn’t want, I didn’t wanna do that. I wish I would’ve picked a more branded thing. Okay. Uh, I mean, it would have made it sellable, I think, for the first, you know, point, and it was a little too based on me. Mm-hmm. Um, so I never thought about that.

[00:34:08] I never thought anybody would want to hear from me about legal stuff in the first place. So I didn’t think about that. I would’ve put a time limit on it. Uh, there was a phrase that I should’ve legally protected in the very beginning, ironically, um, that I did not, and a person who started using it much, much later than me went and trademarked it.

[00:34:26] Nathan: Mm.

[00:34:27] Sam: Uh, yeah, right after my parents’ loss. And so that was tough, um, but I just kind of pivoted and moved on-

[00:34:33] Nathan: Right …

[00:34:34] Sam: from it. So there were, there were little things like that. I wish I started a podcast earlier.

[00:34:38] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:34:38] Sam: I really like podcasting. Wish I would’ve done that.

[00:34:40] Nathan: What’s been the, the thing with the podcast that’s made you love it so much and then have an impact on the business?

[00:34:45] Sam: It, because it’s affirmed everything I believe about marketing, which is that I don’t need to talk about legal stuff. I talk about essentially what I always call shoulder issues. So I, I have most of my episodes are about email marketing. Uh-huh. And now people come to me for that or ask me about that. I don’t have anything to sell them as of now about email marketing, but I have tons of podcast episodes about it.

[00:35:04] I’ve done email list series all about getting signed up on Kit and starting a thing. Yeah. And- You’re one

[00:35:08] Nathan: of our biggest affiliates.

[00:35:09] Sam: Yes.

[00:35:10] Nathan: Shout out.

[00:35:10] Sam: At,

[00:35:10] Nathan: at the, the event that we were at, um, just this week, a bunch of people were like, “Oh, I’m on Kit because

[00:35:15] Sam: of Sam.” Yeah. And I’m like, “You’re my-” Waiting for my hoodie.

[00:35:17] Yeah, exactly. I want my hoodie. Uh, yeah, but I, I’ve done that, so it gives me a place to point them. And then in those episodes I have commercials running for my own products. Mm-hmm. And we, we have a survey that people automatically get after they purchase the Ultimate Bundle that asks them a series of questions, including where they heard of me from.

[00:35:35] Mm-hmm. And I also ask, “What are all the places that you consumed content from me before you decided to purchase?” So I wanna know how many of them have been reading my newsletter, how long have they been on the newsletter for, about how many issues have they read, um, if they’ve listened to my podcast, about how many episodes.

[00:35:49] And systematically we see people listen to the podcast, so that’s- Mm … really interesting for us.

[00:35:54] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:35:55] Sam: Yeah.

[00:35:55] Nathan: That is interesting.

[00:35:56] Sam: Yeah.

[00:35:56] Nathan: Okay, so going back to the launch. What other elements were really interesting or powerful in the launch that we maybe haven’t covered yet?

[00:36:03] Sam: Yeah. So I think, for one, I switched to doing only one live webinar, which was- Okay

[00:36:08] I was really scared to do, because I used to do three. Yeah. Which I don’t know how I had the energy. I would do three in, in, like, a 24-hour period.

[00:36:15] Nathan: Oh, wow.

[00:36:16] Sam: And I don’t know how I did that. Um- Was

[00:36:18] Nathan: that just for scheduling reasons? You were like, “Oh, I wanna hit different time zones?”

[00:36:21] Sam: Yeah. I was so convinced that people wouldn’t sign up if it wasn’t- Right

[00:36:24] working for them. So I switched into this one live webinar. Like, “This is it. Sign up or don’t.” And then really got good at really pushing the replay. So something I’m doing that I don’t see anybody else doing, uh, that I know of, is, is being okay with the replay as long as you’re really good at getting people to actually watch it.

[00:36:43] Like, obviously, I want people to come live if they can. I offer bonuses live that they can’t get elsewhere. But I push the replay, and one of the ways that we started doing this and saw a lot of success was offering them a podcast replay. So I make it a private podcast replay, like an audio version, and I can’t tell you how many people I hear from that are like, “If you hadn’t offered that, I wouldn’t have been able to watch.”

[00:37:02] They’re new moms or people still working a nine to five or whatever, and they’re like, “I listened to you while I was making dinner, and I still bought the bundle.” Yeah.

[00:37:11] Nathan: So it just made it more accessible? Yeah. ‘Cause they could have watched the, the video- For some

[00:37:16] Sam: reason, Nathan … version instead of the- People don’t know.

[00:37:17] Nathan: But someone was like, “As a podcast-” Mm-hmm … that fits into the I can do this while

[00:37:21] Sam: doing something else.” Well, they listen in the car. They’ll listen while they drive. Yeah. They… Somebody told me that they listened while they walked. Like, they, they do all different things. I don’t know why, because to your point, I, they, they could just do that, right?

[00:37:30] Nathan: Yep.

[00:37:30] Sam: But I try to remove friction as much as- Right … possible, and if that’s it, then that’s it. I… We got thousands of downloads on the replay, so it’s, it’s… clearly, it’s working. As a podcast. As a… Just a podcast. I’m tracking that separately. Right. So it’s working. It’s really interesting. Um, and then I played a lot this time around with the live, uh, like, on-webinar bonuses.

[00:37:50] Mm-hmm. So I, for the first time, gave a little bit of an extra financial incentive if they could purchase on the webinar. Okay. And I also sent everyone who bought on the webinar a copy of my book.

[00:38:00] Nathan: Oh, okay.

[00:38:00] Sam: Yes. That was fun.

[00:38:02] Nathan: Now, people will talk about in the course world who then, you know, authors who write a book version of it- Mm

[00:38:07] will often talk about it cannibalizing-

[00:38:10] Sam: Mm …

[00:38:10] Nathan: um, sales in some, in some cases where the book is very similar to the course. In your case, these are quite different.

[00:38:16] Sam: Extremely different, ’cause my book is only teaching people how to start an online business from a marketing perspective. Mm-hmm. So how to build an email list, how to build out your first funnel, how to create like a flywheel around all of these things.

[00:38:27] Mm-hmm. Everything we’re talking about today. But I very strategically used my product, the ultimate bundle, in the book to… as the example, obviously, of what I built. Right. So that someone who read this book because they wanted to learn about email list marketing, they would now be familiar with this product.

[00:38:41] And I think that is why I’m seeing so many purchases from the book. Mm-hmm. ‘Cause they pick it up for business, but then they learn about the legal. Right. And so then what I did during my webinar this year was I had a physical copy of the book with me, obviously. And at the end of the webinar, I showed it to everybody and I said to them, “Today, I’ve just taught you all the legal steps that you need to take.

[00:38:59] But even if you do that, how are you getting customers? How are you building an email list? How are you gonna find an audience? It’s all right here. I taught you everything I know, everything I’m sharing in this episode, in my book. And I’m gonna send it to you for free- Mm-hmm … if you purchase right now.”

[00:39:12] Mm-hmm. I think that’s why we had, we had the most on webinar signups ever.

[00:39:16] Nathan: How many did you have?

[00:39:17] Sam: We had 128 on the webinar.

[00:39:19] Nathan: At over $2,000 a piece.

[00:39:20] Sam: Yeah. In like five or six minutes. It was crazy. We couldn’t… I just kept seeing it pop up and I couldn’t… Yeah, I couldn’t believe it.

[00:39:28] Nathan: Now, you have an order bump-

[00:39:29] Sam: Yes

[00:39:29] Nathan: in the checkout process. What do you offer, what’s the price point, and how many people take you up on that?

[00:39:34] Sam: So I have a few. Uh, I used to only run one ’cause I always adopted the rule that you had to only have one order bump at checkout, or else- Okay … I start adding multiple and people buy them all. So that works for me.

[00:39:44] Um, but I have a pack of additional templates that aren’t included that are maybe for somebody who’s like a little bit more advanced. Mm-hmm. And so they didn’t necessarily make sense for the beginner entrepreneur, but somebody else. They’re discounted down to $199. That would be like almost $1,000 if they bought them individually.

[00:39:59] Okay. And then there’s also an email template pack that I created. So I basically wrote three email templates for people. So if you need to email a client, for example, who owes you money and they’re late. Mm-hmm. Um, there are actually a lot of legal rules about how you write- Right … that email ’cause you can’t violate Debt Collection Practices Act.

[00:40:15] And so I wrote that email template. I wrote an email template to write kindly to someone who’s copying you, uh, who’s copying your content or mimicking you. Happens

[00:40:24] Nathan: a lot.

[00:40:24] Sam: Happens a lot. And then the third one is the boring one, but it’s the GDPR template. And then I have a little training to teach them how to upload it to Kit, like where to put it- Mm

[00:40:31] and how to use it.

[00:40:33] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:40:33] Sam: Yeah. So those sell pretty much every time. We had like a 60%, uh, order bump conversion for this last-

[00:40:38] Nathan: And so what’s, what… On a 60% conversion, what kind of revenue lift does that come from? Yeah. If you were like, “Oh, never mind, I’m not gonna do order bumps,” like w- yeah, what would it be roughly?

[00:40:46] Sam: It was like $103,000 worth of order bumps this time.

[00:40:51] Nathan: Yeah. So it’s like twen- a 25%

[00:40:53] Sam: lift- Mm,

[00:40:53] Nathan: yeah … on all revenue.

[00:40:54] Sam: Yeah. Yeah. Um- It’s huge

[00:40:57] Nathan: That’s amazing.

[00:40:57] Sam: Yeah. That’s in addition to the 500 that we made. The 500 is just from the ultimate bundle itself I’m sorry, what? In the course sales. Yeah. Yeah. I don’t have an order…

[00:41:07] I don’t have an upsell yet, which was that, that you asked me earlier what my mistakes are. Before I wrote the book, I had thought that essentially what I wrote in the book could have been a upsell. An upsell? Yeah, ’cause I, I could easily crank out an email marketing course- Right … of some sort. I gave that as a bonus.

[00:41:20] It’s a topic

[00:41:21] Nathan: that you’re obsessed with.

[00:41:21] Sam: I am obsessed with it. I’m all right at it, so I, I could throw that in. And that, that’s probably a mistake of something I should have done earlier- Mm-hmm … in terms of just easy and people ask me for it all the time.

[00:41:31] Nathan: Interesting. So a $530,000 launch- Yeah … and then another 100 and some thousand dollars-

[00:41:36] Sam: Hundred

[00:41:36] Nathan: and three, yeah

[00:41:37] in order bumps from these additional products.

[00:41:39] Sam: Yes.

[00:41:40] Nathan: Okay.

[00:41:40] Sam: Yeah.

[00:41:41] Nathan: Now, what you’re selling is templates in courses, and those are things that other creators have experienced that AI is cannibalizing or, you know, if it hasn’t eliminated that now, it’s going to in the future. How has AI affected your business, and what are you doing about it?

[00:41:55] Sam: So I would say about a year ago, I started hearing from prospective customers saying, “Why should I purchase this from you if I can do it on ChatGPT?” Right. Which was honestly a shock to me as a lawyer, like, “Why would you ask this for? How could you trust it?” You know? This is where I think it is so important to understand your customer.

[00:42:12] Mm-hmm. My customer always has a seed of doubt in the back of their mind if they have not done this completely legitimately. Mm-hmm. So before AI, there were friends sending them copies of their contracts. Oh, use,

[00:42:23] Nathan: use this contract that- Yeah … my lawyer made this. Just change a few things and it’s good to go.

[00:42:26] Sam: Yeah. Or, like, go on Nathan’s website and take his privacy policy, ’cause clearly- Right … he has a good one. And then they would sit there and be like, “But wait, what if Nathan took it from somebody else?” Right. “What if Nathan never looked at his privacy policy? What if his is no good? How do we even know Nathan’s is good?”

[00:42:40] So there was always this seed of doubt, which I speak to a lot in my marketing, of like, “You’re never gonna feel confident until you know you’ve taken the right steps and you’ve buttoned up everything and you have- Mm-hmm … all your own stuff.” You also need to be able to customize it and, like, change it- Right

[00:42:53] to make it your own. So knowing my customer, I just started shifting a lot of my marketing to talk even more heavily about that than I already did. But after a while, I kept getting more and more questions about it. Those people would still buy, by the way. I did see them convert by, um, through, through emailing with them.

[00:43:09] But I also then just started to lean into it in my content and start talking about it. And I then filmed a tutorial where I walked through, I gave chat a prompt to create a contract. It was terrible. I pulled the contract apart and I told them all the things that was missing, what, what scenarios would leave them- Right

[00:43:26] totally uncovered. It obviously doesn’t understand our industry, like the specifics of our industry, how we’re creating content, what podcast stuff we’re doing, all of that. So I just blew all of that open, and it was really interesting because the biggest critique of my video, and I got all this hate on the video, was that my prompt was bad.

[00:43:42] They were like, “Well, you didn’t prompt it correctly because you should have told it all the things that needs to be in the contract.” I said, “Do you know what things to put in the contract?” And that pretty much stopped that conversation. Right. Because it was like, that’s the point. You don’t know what you don’t know.

[00:43:55] Right. You don’t know what to tell chat. Unless you’re a lawyer, you don’t know what to tell it of all the provisions that need to be in it, and so you’re always going to be sitting there looking over- at saying, “Is this enough?” Right. And you’re gonna be right where you are right now. And so I just leaned into it in the marketing, and it kind of shut it down.

[00:44:09] I mean, I’m sure it siphoned off something. Right. I don’t know how much bigger this launch would’ve been, but it’s been okay.

[00:44:15] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:44:15] Sam: Yeah,

[00:44:16] Nathan: yeah. That’s interesting. Have you seen anything from other creators of what they’re doing, uh, to combat that, that people could learn from?

[00:44:22] Sam: Yeah, so I mean, I think some people are going almost in the opposite direction, where they’re teaching them how to lean into AI and use it- Right

[00:44:27] for their business to legally protect them. I don’t love that idea, because what I’ve seen from it hasn’t been accurate. Right. Um, even in the law, there are some, like, famous cases that are going on where lawyers have gotten in big trouble because they’ll use chat to generate a, a brief, for example, for, to take to court.

[00:44:43] They’ve submitted these in court, and the citations have been completely made up and fake. Yeah. So that is a really big problem, obviously, and I, I just don’t know that I would trust it. Uh, I also want creators to be empowered enough to know, like, if they have a client come back to them and they’re like, “I don’t understand what this part is.

[00:45:02] Can we change it? Can I delete this thing,” how… So then you’re gonna go back to chat and ask it? Like, you need to be able to have a conversation. And it’s like, ”

[00:45:09] Nathan: Oh,

[00:45:09] Sam: yeah. Of course.” Yeah. ”

[00:45:09] Nathan: Oh, I was totally wrong to include that section.” Yeah, just take

[00:45:11] Sam: it out.

[00:45:11] Nathan: Just take it, yeah.

[00:45:12] Sam: Take it out.

[00:45:12] Nathan: All those listings.

[00:45:13] Sam: Yeah.

[00:45:14] Nathan: The other thing that- People don’t realize, and you can speak to this, is that anything that you say, at least right now, in to your, in your conversations with your AI- Yeah … is discoverable in court.

[00:45:25] Sam: Yes.

[00:45:26] Nathan: And so there are these cases where people have had all these conversations with their attorneys under attorney-client privilege.

[00:45:32] Sam: Yeah.

[00:45:33] Nathan: And then they’ve said, “I don’t know if my attorney’s doing exactly what they should be doing, so let me double check their work, and I’ll upload the entire case- Mm-hmm … and all of our internal files and all that to Claude and ask it.” And it is no longer… Like, there are cases where- It’s not

[00:45:47] Sam: privileged

[00:45:47] Nathan: anymore

[00:45:47] where it’s no longer privileged. Mm-hmm. And so-

[00:45:49] Sam: Yeah …

[00:45:49] Nathan: then the other side has said, “Wow, thank you for that. We, you know, we’re submitting-

[00:45:53] Sam: Yeah …

[00:45:54] Nathan: subpoenas for your Claude conversations,” and it does not go well.

[00:45:58] Sam: No. This is a big problem in our industry, actually, because people are uploading clients’ information to it.

[00:46:03] Mm-hmm. And so a lot of people have been asking me lately if, uh, if there are any protections of things they should be putting in their contracts to say, “I use AI to generate coaching session notes or to do this or that.” Right. “So now when Nathan’s telling me about whatever, about his health, now this is going into here, and we don’t control it anymore, so what about that?”

[00:46:20] Mm-hmm. So there’s, I, there’s a lot of skepticism obviously, you know, on, on that side of it. Um, but I do think this is where it comes down to, like, leaning into your customer. My customer is the person who does things right. They cross every T twice. Right. And so they’re d- they’re s- always still gonna be looking at that being like, “I’m not sure if that’s right.

[00:46:37] I’m not sure if it’s enough.” And if you don’t… If you’re in an industry where your customer doesn’t know what they don’t know, I think that’s really help- Mm-hmm … that’s where you can really combat AI to say, “You’re the one that has to prompt it. It doesn’t know what you’re looking for.” Right. You don’t know what to tell it that’s important about your situation, how you’re working with people, all the issues that come up.

[00:46:55] And then obviously leaning into the benefits of, like, my product in particular, saying, “You get customer service, and you get all this support, and you get the trainings.” Mm-hmm. And, like, that stuff is not… You get it from somebody who’s built a business like the one that you’re trying to build. I mean, my clients- Right

[00:47:08] often want to become this, right, and this have, have this kind of business. They wanna sell digital products and build a big email list and all that, so I get it.

[00:47:16] Nathan: The thing that stands out to me about that is that you know your customer so well, and other people might attract and want a customer that’s like, “Look, we’re just looking for the, the fastest path to do this.”

[00:47:25] And someone else might make a whole course about, “Here’s how to use Claude to replace your lawyer, and here’s the exact prompts you have to do,” whatever. And it’s like- Great for them.

[00:47:33] Sam: Mm-hmm.

[00:47:33] Nathan: Their customer is for the move fast, do it cheap- Mm … you know, and I’m willing to take on more risk. And they, in their marketing, might speak exactly to that customer.

[00:47:43] You know, save hundreds of thousands of dollars on legal fees or whatever, and like all that. But you’re saying, and I hear you in the way you speak to, to the customer, is like, look, you’re the person that makes sure that everything is buttoned up.

[00:47:54] Sam: Yeah.

[00:47:55] Nathan: And so you don’t have to answer for everyone. You can carve off, like this is the type of person, even down to basically the personality that we serve.

[00:48:02] Yeah.

[00:48:02] Sam: I think people get way too caught up in trying to convince people. Mm. Like, so you… It’s like an ego thing of like now I need to convince you why I’m irreplaceable, so I’ll c- start creating all this content about how stupid AI is. Like, my customers are pr- probably pretty skeptical. Right. Uh, for those of you, and they’re using it for other things, you know, for productivity and systematizing things.

[00:48:20] Mm. And it’s great. I think it’s also telling them, like I added things to the bundle when I reshot it at Kit about where I do think AI would be helpful for them in certain cases. So if they’re doing research on a certain to- topic that I’m talking about, I’ll say, “This is what I would prompt it,” and I actually wrote the prompts for them in- Yeah

[00:48:36] the little description boxes under the video so that they could use it. So then I’m not saying to them, like it’s, it’s banished. It’s just like I wouldn’t use it to generate your most important… I mean, would you have bet on it for when you were scaling Kit as a, as a contract? Yeah. It would’ve been terrifying, right?

[00:48:50] And so it’s not… It’s, yeah, I, I don’t know if it’ll ever be there, but it’s not, it’s not there yet.

[00:48:54] Nathan: Okay. So you’re running a very successful business now. And I’m… Everyone always talks about the total revenue they’re making- Mm … or the profit or all that. I don’t think enough creators talk about what they’re actually doing with that money.

[00:49:06] Sam: Yeah.

[00:49:07] Nathan: Uh, so first, I wanna ask about a fun splurge, something that you spent money on that you’re like, “This is just awesome, and I did it guilt-free.” Ah. “Or I forced myself to do it because, like, I don’t wanna just stockpile every bit of this money.”

[00:49:18] Sam: Yeah. Well, when I started my business, I made a list of, like, what would be the bucket list items that would- Yeah

[00:49:24] make sense for me, and, uh, one was an electric car. That was really important to me, and I just wanted to buy it and not have to worry about it. I want it to be really nice and have heated seats and the glass roof and all the things. Um, ’cause I actually really like cars and so- Yeah … uh, that was important to me, so did that.

[00:49:40] Uh, I actually just bought my second… I, I got rid of the first one and bought a second one. And, um, the other one was to buy a big chunk o’ land. Mm-hmm. And if it had a house on it, great, like, even if it was something that was not in the best condition. That was really important to me. But I actually just straight up for cash bought a, a cabin in Vermont in, uh, August of last year.

[00:50:00] Nathan: Oh, that’s amazing.

[00:50:00] Sam: Yeah.

[00:50:01] Nathan: And is it somewhere you’ve spent a lot of time or, like, gathered people at?

[00:50:04] Sam: Yeah. Ryan, my husband, and I go to Vermont a lot, and we like it there, but also Vermont is a very fast-growing real estate market. Yeah. And so during COVID, a lot of people moved there, but as people are looking for land, as they’re looking for, uh, not as hot of places to live- Yes

[00:50:18] they are going to Vermont. And so Ver- and Vermont’s just awesome. It’s a great place to live, and you have, like, this great seasonality to it. And so, I don’t know, something about having a giant chunk of land sounded really… I know for you too, it sounded really fun for me to say, like, it’s, it feels like a little insulation and- Yeah

[00:50:34] a little investment. It gives me wiggle room to, I don’t know, grow something, build a tiny house on it, you know, do, do something that I want to do. So yeah, that was pretty cool to just go there and say, like, “I’m just buying this outright,” and they kept asking me about mortgage. I was like, “No, I, I got it.”

[00:50:48] Nope. Not doing,

[00:50:49] Nathan: not doing that. Got it. Mortgage

[00:50:50] Sam: rates

[00:50:50] Nathan: are

[00:50:51] Sam: terrible.

[00:50:52] Nathan: Yeah, I love that. Yeah. I feel like we all have a little bit of a wanting to play Monopoly tendency. Yeah. Like, I acquired a, I acquired a property. I’ve got Park Place.

[00:51:00] Sam: Yeah, I did use to play Monopoly a lot. That’s probably it.

[00:51:02] Nathan: Yeah. Okay, and then on the, the practical side- Yeah

[00:51:06] let’s say that this business doesn’t last forever, or- Yeah … things change in the industry or whatever else, we might scale up to bigger things, we might move away from it. What are you doing on the investing side, and how do you think about how much to invest versus to spend on lifestyle or other things?

[00:51:18] Sam: Yeah, I mean, I max out my investments, so most of my money is going there, and I’m- Yeah. I have a 401since I have my one full-time employee, so I, I max out there, um, and all the rest of my retirement accounts. Um, I keep probably way too much in the business operating account, uh- Yeah … than I need to, but what I did start doing was moving the excess over to a high-interest savings account, and I’m making crazy money, uh, every single month on this interest- Yep

[00:51:44] which I just think is fun and feels free in a way. And so, um, I’ve been doing that just so that it gives me wiggle room if I wanted to invest in something back in the business, I can move it, move it back. Um, but I also purchased a house in New York and paid for that outright as well. Yeah. Uh, and that’s not nearly as cheap as buying a house in Vermont.

[00:52:00] As in Vermont. Yes. Real estate market is not the same. Um, so I also bought that, and that has appreciated like crazy. Uh- Mm-hmm … s- I bought a waterfront house, so that’s, that’s very hard to come by, and yeah. Yeah. Not going anywhere. Yeah.

[00:52:13] Nathan: Are there any financial mistakes or thing… Like, if, if there was a creator in your shoes- Mm

[00:52:17] who maybe went from making a few hundred thousand dollars a year and is now at, like, a million a year- Mm … or more with really good margins and all of that, and like- Okay. Is there any advice that you would give them?

[00:52:28] Sam: Yeah, I sat on it a little too long in the beginning. Like, I- I call it my war chest in the book of how, like, I thought of it, like I needed to build it up forever.

[00:52:36] But then I was sitting on it and, like, for example, Facebook ads I wanted to invest in maybe 2018. I had enough capital to be like, “Okay, now I can… My funnel’s working. I can turn this from a drip to a really heavy flow of a faucet.” And I was scared to spend the money. And if I had started earlier, I think that would’ve been really good.

[00:52:53] Once I did- Right … it was good. The second mistake I’ve made, uh, even sometimes still I have to remind myself, is, like, my Facebook ads work so well, and they will ask me, like, “Do you wanna scale ad spend?” I’m like, “No, I’ll hold.” And they’re like, “Why are you holding? Why?” And I remember I was talking to Pat Flynn about this at Craft and Commerce last year.

[00:53:09] He’s just like, “Why don’t you just keep, like, keep upping it, right?” And I’m like, “I don’t know why.” H- honestly, I don’t know why. Hm. It’s just a mental thing that I’m like, “This is good,” and I guess I’m worried that I’ll break it if it goes higher, and maybe it won’t work as well. I don’t, I don’t know the thought process, but that’s definitely a mistake.

[00:53:24] Yeah.

[00:53:24] Nathan: Yeah. That makes sense. Find the things that are working well- Yes … and keep investing in them.

[00:53:28] Sam: Yes,

[00:53:29] Nathan: absolutely. And if it works great at 10 grand a month, then, like, let’s try 15, let’s try 20, and

[00:53:33] Sam: keep ramping up. Yes, exactly. And I’ve probably also made the classic mistakes of entrepreneurs of, like, uh, I hired one person too quickly and then fired too slowly.

[00:53:41] Uh- Yeah … so that classic. Got that one off my bucket list. Um, and-

[00:53:46] Nathan: The trick is to just make that mistake once.

[00:53:47] Sam: Yes, exactly. I’ve

[00:53:48] Nathan: made it probably a dozen times. Yeah.

[00:53:50] Sam: So far only one. I have a little board. Um, but h- honestly, if I could tell somebody who was earlier in my, and wanted to be in my shoes, was that, like, investing in Lindsay, my, my full-time employee- Mm

[00:54:00] like, I pay her well and I take care of her the best I can. And a lot of people have said to me, like, “You know you can get somebody who could do this so much cheaper,” or they use people that they find online here, there, and elsewhere. And I have taken the position since day one that I would rather have fewer people who I pay really well- Yes

[00:54:17] who are really good at their jobs- Right … and then are really, really dedicated and more like team members, and I feel like we’re in it together. Mm-hmm. And I hope people can see the forest for the trees for that and- Yeah … and invest in people.

[00:54:28] Nathan: Okay, last topic.

[00:54:29] Sam: Yeah.

[00:54:29] Nathan: Something that you’re fairly passionate about is email marketing.

[00:54:32] Sam: Yes, very.

[00:54:33] Nathan: Uh, so you consume a lot of newsletters- Yeah … from other people. You see what’s going on in the industry. You spend so much time writing great emails and obsessed about that. What are the things that you see from other creators that just drive you crazy, or you’re like, “Oh, man, I would lo- if, if I ran your newsletter, I would change this, I would fix that”?

[00:54:51] Sam: There’s somebody whose newsletter I loved, and just recently they decided to switch it up to going to Q&A style only. Mm. So the entire email now is answering someone’s question. It’s kind of like a, a Dear Abby type situation- Okay … where people, like, submit questions and do this. The thing that drives me crazy about that as a creator, and I’ve counseled other people against doing that, as the, as like the sole format of an email- Yeah

[00:55:10] is that it knocks out anybody who that question doesn’t apply to. Mm-hmm. So I literally went from reading this person’s email religiously to 99% of the questions she’s answering now do not apply to me at all, and I’m not interested in them. Right. So I instantly count myself out. I don’t open the email.

[00:55:25] The other day, I accidentally opened the email even though the subject had nothing to do with me, and I noticed that she has other sections of this email that are about things that I would find interesting and that point to other pieces of her content. Mm-hmm. I had no idea because the subject line is about it, the bulk of the email’s about it.

[00:55:40] Right. I just stopped reading her newsletter. So that was, that was one thing. I mean, we had a discussion last night about resends after- Yeah … to unopens. I felt pretty passionately about not doing that.

[00:55:49] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:55:50] Sam: Personally- I walked into

[00:55:50] Nathan: a conversation-

[00:55:50] Sam: I

[00:55:51] Nathan: gave you a

[00:55:51] Sam: laugh … of like what?

[00:55:53] Nathan: Yeah. This is a passionate conversation-

[00:55:54] Sam: Yeah

[00:55:54] about whether you

[00:55:54] Nathan: should resend to unopens.

[00:55:55] Sam: She was shocked for me to say, like, “No, I would never do that.” I only, I only ever resend to unopens on Close Cart for a sale. Mm-hmm. And even then, sometimes I will resend to unopens who are also tagged in Kit as having clicked on the sales page or the checkout page.

[00:56:09] Mm-hmm. So I’m limiting the audience of, like, I know this person’s pretty interested. Um, so that’s something I’m doing often. I mean, people’s subject lines always need help. Um, they’re just not interesting enough, uh, or they give away the farm in the subject line itself. There’s no curiosity. There’s no loop to get me to open.

[00:56:26] One thing I’m finding that’s working really well for me for subject lines is using the subscriber’s name in the subject line and making them the hero of the subject line, and it’s really getting people to open it.

[00:56:36] Nathan: What would that look like?

[00:56:37] Sam: Nathan’s email list just grew by 30,000 subscribers.

[00:56:41] Nathan: Did? That sounds great.

[00:56:42] Sam: Yeah. You’re like, “Wait, what?” And then you click on it. Or like, “Nathan just started his first podcast.” Or like, um, I- mine yesterday, uh, for my Kit newsletter was, “Nathan just made my book a bestseller.” And the point w- of the email was about how it was the one-year anniversary of my book coming out, and that it’s not a legal book.

[00:56:57] And it was like dispelling- Right … this myth, asking people to buy it. But we had a crazy

[00:57:00] Nathan: opening. Are all of those the first name at the beginning, or you have versions that you might- Not

[00:57:05] Sam: always …

[00:57:06] Nathan: put the name somewhere in the middle of it?

[00:57:07] Sam: Yeah, I could put it towards the end. When I put it at the end, I’ll play with using a question mark.

[00:57:12] Like, “Nathan just added 30,000 subscribers?” Or, “30,000 subscribers sounds good to Nathan?” Like, you could- Yeah … put something like that. Yeah. Okay. So sometimes I’ll use the question mark to give the upward inflection. Mm. Yeah. Okay. But making them the hero of the subject line, a- again, really having to know your customer of like, what do they really want.

[00:57:28] Like, uh, “Nathan just got booked with clients,” like has a full roster of clients or something like that. I’ll do that a lot. It works really, really

[00:57:35] Nathan: well. Or you’re just imagining yourself as the reader in that-

[00:57:37] Sam: Yes … in

[00:57:37] Nathan: that state.

[00:57:38] Sam: Well, and so I know what I’m writing about. It w- I- I always do this last. I write my subject line last.

[00:57:43] I don’t know if everyone does that. But I write it last, and so I think about, what’s the point of what I’m teaching in this newsletter? What would they, what’s the outcome that they would really want? Well, Nathan would want 30,000 new subscribers. He would. That, he would. And that’s an email that, that’s an email about newsletter growth, right?

[00:57:57] So it’s like, that’s the point is like, if that person sees that subject line, is interested in it, they’re also going to be interested in my, uh, newsletter itself. And then obviously, always, always edit the preview text. I like playing with that, too. Yeah.

[00:58:10] Nathan: What’s something that you would put in the preview text, or how would you play with that?

[00:58:12] Sam: Yeah. So s- usually, it, I’ll put something about like a sneak peek of what’s inside. So I’ll be like, “Open me to learn h- my easy email list strategy to add 30K to your email list this year,” or something like that. Mm. Yeah. And so I also try to use- I’d click that. Yeah. Maybe something like that. That’s off the top of my head.

[00:58:28] But I would, I usually will say something like my easy email list strategy that I write to people about a lot, which is like going straight to the email, the value of the email, instead of the freebie. That’s a little something that’s like an open curiosity loop of like, well, what is that strategy? Mm. Uh, a lot of times I say, “Steal my secrets.”

[00:58:42] That works really well for me. I’ll say like, “Steal, steal my email list strategy inside,” um, or like, “Steal my way of my 500K launch inside.” Like something like that, that works really well. Using an emotional word.

[00:58:53] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:58:53] Sam: Yeah.

[00:58:54] Nathan: Okay.

[00:58:54] Sam: Yeah.

[00:58:55] Nathan: Let’s go really specific.

[00:58:56] Sam: Mm.

[00:58:57] Nathan: Since you use Kit and have all kinds of advanced stuff set up- What’s a tip that you would have for someone on, like, for their kit newsletter automations?

[00:59:05] Sam: Yeah. So I think that having something set up for, uh, any sort of segmentation in the front end that, you know, we started segmenting of, like, why are you here and kind of where are you at, I mean, depending on- Mm … what you do or write your email newsletter about. But for me, I wanted to know, like, where are they at in business.

[00:59:21] Are they brand new? Are they coming to me for legal stuff? Are they here for the marketing things? Mm. So doing that up front was not only helpful for segmentation and serving purposes, it also got people to engage. Um, so that’s really good. Another thing I’ve built into my email list, um, or my kit sequence, my welcome sequence, that I think people should steal, is that in the very first email I just say something cutesy about, like, I won’t be able to sleep tonight until you tell me that you got it, so just hit reply and say…

[00:59:46] All you have to say is, “Got it.” And it’s really funny, ’cause every day I wake up and then my whole inbox is, like, got it, got it, got it, got it, got… It’s just, like, hundreds of got it. So that is a really great… Another way, by the way, that you’ll not only boost the deliverability and getting- Right … people involved, but now it opens a conversation because I’ll always respond back.

[01:00:02] Nathan: What do you respond with?

[01:00:03] Sam: Oh, we’ll just say, like, “Thanks so much for being here. Is there anything that we can help you find?” Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Like, are you looking… W- were you looking for, like, a certain podcast episode? Um, do you know about Sam’s book? And yeah, some people will just, like, engage. Uh, oftentimes people will write got it and then they’ll write something f- that they think it was really funny, like- Yeah

[01:00:18] I hope you got sleep tonight, and like, I know this is just an automation, but yeah. Yeah.

[01:00:23] Nathan: Yeah. That’s awesome.

[01:00:24] Sam: Yeah.

[01:00:24] Nathan: This has been fantastic. I hope. Congratulations on a wildly successful launch.

[01:00:28] Sam: Thank

[01:00:29] Nathan: you. Doing many of these launches actually is, uh, it’s been fun to have a front row seat to you building your business.

[01:00:34] If people want to check out your work, subscribe to the newsletter-

[01:00:37] Sam: Yeah …

[01:00:38] Nathan: you know, study, study your work and see what, how you write your newsletters and everything else, where should they go?

[01:00:43] Sam: You should head to samvanderwielen.com/newsletter to get my weekly newsletter, Sam’s Sidebar, that 66,000 of your peers already get, uh, and to learn how to market their online businesses, and then grab a copy of my book When I Start My Business, I’ll Be Happy.

[01:00:56] And like Nathan, I have a podcast kind of on your terms where I talk about the same stuff.

[01:01:00] Nathan: I love it. Thanks so much for coming on.

[01:01:01] Sam: Thanks for having me again.

[01:01:03] Nathan: If you enjoyed this episode, go to YouTube and search The Nathan Barry Show, then hit subscribe, and make sure to like the video and drop a comment.

[01:01:12] I’d love to hear what some of your favorite parts of the video were, and also just who else you think we should have on the show. Thank you so much for

[01:01:18] listening.

[00:00:00] Layla: Adding services into the mix, I was able to triple our monthly income

[00:00:04] Nathan: Layla built ProcessDriven into 150,000 subscriber YouTube channel teaching systems to small business owners.

[00:00:11] Layla: Here is the solution for how to systemize your business, 5 to 50 people making 5 to 50 million.

[00:00:15] Nathan: This episode is about what she’s seeing that many creators are missing right now.

[00:00:20] Layla: We just added that human touch into it, and that is the piece that has changed everything.

[00:00:24] Nathan: What Layla found after doing hundreds of sales calls-

[00:00:27] Layla: One of the biggest unlocks in terms of conversion rates on sales calls was quoting the number as an opening …

[00:00:32] Nathan: absolutely insane.

[00:00:33] Layla: Close more than 50%, you’re doing something wrong, not good.

[00:00:36] Nathan: What do you want your close rate to

[00:00:38] Layla: be? I want it to be like 20%. At this point, if someone’s-

[00:00:40] Nathan: You just said something that is very important

[00:00:42] Layla: That’s what I’ll say usually at the end, “Don’t work with us. Here’s why.” The

[00:00:45] Nathan: offer model

[00:00:46] Layla: you’ve

[00:00:46] Nathan: been told to build might be the very thing holding your business back.

[00:00:50] Layla: So afraid of services for the reason so many are. Felt like a step backwards.

[00:00:54] Nathan: We’re like more than doubling revenue-

[00:00:56] Layla: Yeah …

[00:00:56] Nathan: with this one change.

[00:00:58] Layla: Yeah.

[00:00:58] Nathan: You know, this one weird trick that maybe all course creators should consider. If you have a course or you’re about to build one, watch this entire episode before you make another

[00:01:06] Layla: move.

[00:01:06] The reason I realized that it would work is because I-

[00:01:10] Nathan: Oh, I mean, that’s such an important point

[00:01:16] So, Layla, you hit a revenue ceiling-

[00:01:18] Layla: Yep …

[00:01:19] Nathan: with courses around $600,000 or $700,000 a year, is that right?

[00:01:22] Layla: Yep, the infamous number.

[00:01:23] Nathan: A lot of people hit that.

[00:01:24] Layla: Mm-hmm.

[00:01:25] Nathan: But then you broke through it when you moved from products over to services.

[00:01:29] Layla: Yeah. Which

[00:01:29] Nathan: is a- Not

[00:01:30] Layla: so infamous.

[00:01:30] Nathan: Not so infamous. Not very many people make that switch.

[00:01:33] Layla: Yeah. Well, they do, but they go the opposite direction. Yes, they do. Like, that’s the big thing, like passive income, get out of services, yeah.

[00:01:41] Nathan: So what did it look like to break through that ceiling, and what revenue number, uh, you know, did you hit?

[00:01:45] Layla: Yeah, so it’s a rolling target right now, but essentially, um, what switched in terms of how it worked was I just went to adding services into the mix, and I was able to essentially triple our monthly income, which I’m, I’m hoping now will annualize out.

[00:02:01] Yep. Like, I’m, right now I’m like, “Okay, let’s 2X out this year,” but as I was talking to you before we started filming, I wanna push further, and I honestly think adding services, even with the cost of fulfillment factored in, like, I wanna 4X. Like, I just- Right … I think it’s possible.

[00:02:15] Nathan: So what are you on track for revenue-wise right now, if we just play forward what happened in Q1?

[00:02:20] Layla: Don’t let me jinx it, okay? Like- Yeah. … fake wood. It’s looking like it’ll be about 1.5 million this year. Yeah. I’m, I’m, I’m hoping to be able to say a higher number than that though, I really am.

[00:02:29] Nathan: But I mean, even at that point we’re, like, more than doubling revenue-

[00:02:32] Layla: Yeah …

[00:02:32] Nathan: with this one change.

[00:02:34] Layla: Yeah.

[00:02:34] Nathan: You know, this one weird trick that maybe all course creators should consider.

[00:02:37] Layla: Yeah. No, it’s, it’s right for everybody. Don’t give it any critical thinking at all. Just do exactly what I did.

[00:02:43] Nathan: So let’s walk through what was the model before, and the price point, and, and all that, uh, um, and then we’ll dive into what you switched to that, you know, has had this huge impact where already you’ve doubled or tripled monthly revenue and are on track to take it even further.

[00:02:57] Layla: Just so weird to say out loud, yeah. So after, after all the silos, it’s so great to break free. So original model, like, you want me to go way back back, or just, like, right before the change? Uh,

[00:03:06] Nathan: let’s go right before the change- Okay … and then we’ll, we’ll do the, the history a little later.

[00:03:09] Layla: Okay. So right before the change, the model was essentially a, um, I wanna say it was $1,500 one-time course.

[00:03:16] It might’ve been 2,000 at that point, $2,000 one-time course. Yep. We had a membership on the back end, how classic, and we had some splinter courses, like some mini courses that kinda were intended to ascend you into the next level.

[00:03:28] Nathan: Okay.

[00:03:28] Layla: That was the before. So it was very much done for y- or do it yourself, rather.

[00:03:32] It was a do it yourself course where you get the content, you have a little bit of community if you choose to pay for it. But honestly, when I was, you know, attending an event where we were at last year, I was kinda telling folks, like, “Hey, I’ve got a passive business.” Like, I spend my time doing things, but it’s very hands-off.

[00:03:48] It’s the passive income dream. And I’m deeply unsatisfied with it for the reasons around revenue, and then some other stuff we can get into.

[00:03:57] Nathan: I wanna talk all about l- satisfaction levels and that, ’cause most, you, you know, many people, uh, would be like, “Wait, you’re making six or $700,000 a year?” That, you know-

[00:04:05] Layla: Yeah

[00:04:06] Nathan: that’s absolutely incredible, and it is. But also, like, we all know what we’re capable of, we know the power of leverage, and, and, like, we’re all very driven, ambitious people. Yeah. And so it’s like, okay, I wanna, I wanna level up from here.

[00:04:17] Layla: Right.

[00:04:17] Nathan: So you’re at that six and 700,000.

[00:04:20] Layla: Again, and again, and again.

[00:04:21] Nathan: Yeah. Just keep hitting that ceiling. I, I mean, we have a lot of friends that have gotten to a, a very similar number-

[00:04:28] Layla: Yeah … and

[00:04:29] Nathan: gotten stuck there.

[00:04:29] Layla: It’s cursed. It’s cursed.

[00:04:32] Nathan: Then what w- what’s the model that you switched into? When you say you added services-

[00:04:35] Layla: Yeah …

[00:04:36] Nathan: what does that look like?

[00:04:37] Layla: So the immediate shift was essentially realizing two things.

[00:04:40] Number one, I wasn’t gonna get to the revenue numbers I wanted by just sheer force of will. I did the math. God bless math. I did the math, and I was like, “You know what? I really need to 3X my audience in order for my business to get to where it was gonna go.” My funnels were converting well, thanks to Kit and other things, but in order for that funnel to get enough traffic through it, I needed to either get really good at profitable ads, which I wasn’t gonna be able to do, or triple my audience.

[00:05:05] And I just, I, I could do it, but that would take me years and years. Yep. And so what I realized was, well, let me get down to the actual problem that I’m trying to solve, which is I’m trying to get this content out into the world. You know, we help small businesses systemize their operations. That’s the thing, and I’ve been doing it in this one particular way.

[00:05:22] Along the way, I listen, and I get a lot of requests from our customers for additional support. It’s not a foreign concept. Most of us have- Right … like, had ignored requests from customers. And more than anything else, it was the request of like, “Can I just get you to, like, hold my hand through this?” Like the steps might work.

[00:05:40] I’m scared. My team doesn’t wanna follow it. I got stuck on module two. I think I was saying before we started re- re- filming, um, I had a membership model for a while for the course, and I remember a moment where someone was like, “I’ve taken your membership for three years now. It’s amazing. I love it so much, I referred it to my uncle.

[00:05:59] I’m still at module two, but I hope by year four I’m gonna be able to get to where I need to get and finish this course.” Which mind you, only took 12 hours total. Okay. Like it was a pretty concise course. The services approach was to say, “All right, I hear you. Let me just try to fulfill that need.” And so we launched a service which was like a 90-day operations sprint where it built on top of the course we already had.

[00:06:22] It was the same A to Z, the same curriculum, but we added in a human audit at the beginning, a human checkpoint at three points along the course after the audit, and then we personalized it. So rather than saying take module one, two, three, four, it was take lesson 1.2, do this special thing that’s really relevant to you, then do lesson 2.4.

[00:06:39] Right. And so we just added that human touch into it, and that is the piece that has changed everything.

[00:06:45] Nathan: And so what’s the price point on this version? And I, I know you’re always changing and tweaking prices. Yeah. So, you know, at the moment of recording-

[00:06:53] Layla: Yes … what’s

[00:06:53] Nathan: the

[00:06:53] Layla: price point? Yes, yes, yes. So the course version by itself is around 2,000, 1997 or something or something like that.

[00:07:00] The services version is now at 2,500 per month for three months. Okay. I say that in that format for a certain reason, but 7,500 total.

[00:07:09] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:07:09] Layla: So that’s to go with someone on my team through that journey, and then if you wanna work with me, it’s 21,000.

[00:07:14] Nathan: Okay.

[00:07:14] Layla: Or 7,000 a month.

[00:07:15] Nathan: Why do you say it in that specific way?

[00:07:17] Of the 2,500 per month. Or you said, you said 2,500.

[00:07:21] Layla: Yes. So I really like tracking numbers, and so in the s- the lead-up to this service, I knew I wanted to do it right, like I’m a systems and ops person. So in the fall of 2025 when I was kind of piloting this out, I mean, between now and then I’ve done probably about 150 sales calls, maybe 200 sales calls.

[00:07:39] Okay. I did almost 100 last month. And I would just keep changing how I would present the offer and the price I would present the offer. And one of the biggest unlocks in terms of conversion rates on sales calls was quoting the number as a monthly rate, which was better for me ’cause I had fewer spikes.

[00:07:54] I actually didn’t care about getting the cash earlier for me.

[00:07:57] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:07:58] Layla: Um, and so rather than saying 7,500, or at the time I think it was 4,000 or 3,500 was the first quote. I asked 3,500 up front. I was like, “Ah, okay.” Then I changed it to 2,000 a month for three months. And I don’t know, that math just really changed, then I went to 2,500.

[00:08:15] To me that feels a lot clearer, and I say 2,500, not 2500, because ESL. So I have a lot of folks who aren’t, you know, uh, using English as their first language- Right … perhaps. And so I just kind of try to build a shtick. It’s more

[00:08:27] Nathan: clear.

[00:08:28] Layla: Mm-hmm.

[00:08:28] Nathan: 2,500-

[00:08:30] Layla: Yep …

[00:08:30] Nathan: each month for three months.

[00:08:31] Layla: Yep, for now. For now.

[00:08:33] Nathan: And then it’ll go up later.

[00:08:34] It’ll be 3,000. Yeah. You know, it’s interesting. It sounds like a much lower price. Maybe 7,500 would be a large amount to lay out all at once.

[00:08:43] Layla: Feels like a lot.

[00:08:44] Nathan: Yeah, um, and all that, then, you know, it does ease people into it. Yeah. And you avoid this large sticker shock.

[00:08:50] Layla: Yeah. And, you know, small businesses, cash flow’s a consideration.

[00:08:53] And also, they’re used to hiring operations people. Right. So, like, they have that fractional s- you know, ops person that they’re paying $4,000 a month for.

[00:09:02] Nathan: Right.

[00:09:02] Layla: So, like, they’re getting all of their other things in a monthly rate. It makes sense for me to be a monthly rate. And when I compare that with, oh, but it’s 90 days, it’s just three months.

[00:09:10] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:09:11] Layla: And so that-

[00:09:11] Nathan: And then it has that off-ramp by only… Oh, that’s fascinating.

[00:09:13] Layla: Yeah. So-

[00:09:14] Nathan: Okay. So we need to tell the listener- Mm-hmm … what the service actually is- Okay … that you’re providing. What problem are you solving?

[00:09:20] Layla: Yeah.

[00:09:20] Nathan: And who are you solving it for?

[00:09:21] Layla: Well, I’ll sta- start with the person, ’cause I think- Okay

[00:09:23] that’s really kind of the key to this- Yeah … whole journey. So the person we’re working with is someone who is in charge of a five to 50-person team making 5 to 50 million-

[00:09:32] Nathan: Okay …

[00:09:33] Layla: who is struggling around tasks, knowledge, and communication. So what that looks like symptomatically is, like, we’re not getting things done, we have to have a lot of meetings, promises are being broken, I have to double-check things.

[00:09:46] One of my clients had this line, uh, “Whatever happened to, dot, dot, dot.” Those kinds of sentences- Right … are when people start to feel this, like, process breakdown.

[00:09:55] Nathan: Things are being dropped.

[00:09:56] Layla: Things are being dropped. Yep. Exactly. And so usually they will go try to change software, no offense to software. God, n- don’t know anybody who does

[00:10:04] Nathan: that stuff.

[00:10:04] Like, we, we were on Notion, now w- we’ve to ClickUp, and now we’re trying this, and have you heard about monday.com? Or, you know, and you’re just jumping between everything and, like, that’s the solution- Yep … is new software. Yeah.

[00:10:15] Layla: Yep, yep. And admittedly, I mean, backstory real quick, lore dump, I was a YouTuber who did tutorials on software.

[00:10:21] Nathan: Okay.

[00:10:21] Layla: So like, eh, I kinda knew that world. Yeah. And there’s a lot of money to be made in telling people, “Hey, if you just switch this software, your whole world’s- It’ll solve

[00:10:27] Nathan: all your problems.

[00:10:28] Layla: Yeah. Exactly, exactly. And yet it doesn’t. It just moves the problems. Um, so usually that happens first, then they go to the point of, like, I need an executive coach.

[00:10:35] The coach says, “I don’t know. Just change your team.” They fire their whole team. They restart, and then usually at that point, they’re like, “Hmm, maybe it’s how we operate.”

[00:10:44] Nathan: Right. ”

[00:10:44] Layla: Maybe it’s, like, what is normal in our culture. Maybe it’s the fact that we never write down an agenda. Maybe it’s that we’ve, we don’t know what we do on a Monday morning.”

[00:10:52] And that’s when usually they’ll come to me. They’ll watch a YouTube video, and that’s where all of our leads come from. Uh, in a lot of my sales calls, which I still do most of them right now, I’ll just ask, like, “What, what does a Monday morning look like for you? Where do you go on Monday morning to know what you’re supposed to work on?”

[00:11:07] And that is usually, like, that’s the whole story in one scene.

[00:11:11] Nathan: Well, now we gotta dive into sales- … because that’s such an important thing. But most people do sales the opposite way of what you just described, where they say- I

[00:11:18] Layla: don’t know. I’m figuring this out, Nathan. Tell me how other people do sales.

[00:11:22] Nathan: Well, what most people do is they say, they ask maybe a few questions about like- Oh, yeah

[00:11:26] “Hey, tell me about your team size, revenue”- Mm-hmm … that sort of thing. You know, “If we were to solve this problem for you, what would that look like?” Right?

[00:11:32] Layla: Um- What would a magic wand be?

[00:11:34] Nathan: Yep. Yeah. And then you di- you know, or they’re diving into all of these specifics around, “Okay, and then here’s what our offering would do for you,” and, and all that.

[00:11:41] I, I talk at you for 20 or 30 minutes.

[00:11:44] Layla: Yeah.

[00:11:44] Nathan: Five minutes of questions, talk at you. What you’re doing immediately is getting them to talk.

[00:11:49] Layla: Yeah.

[00:11:50] Nathan: And- Mm-hmm … they will identify all the problems. They will talk through, “Here’s what’s working. Here’s what’s not.” And that will give you so much information. And that you don’t have to tell them, “Ooh, sounds like you really have a problem.”

[00:12:01] Yeah. Like, they will do all of that for you, and then you can just point to the solution.

[00:12:07] Layla: Exactly. And, you know, I love data points, so for anyone who’s, like, tracking this, like, “How do I take this actionably?” I notice that for me, when I do sales calls, ’cause I track all these in, you know, in AI Notetaker, I talk 20 to 30% of the call.

[00:12:18] Nathan: Okay.

[00:12:18] Layla: Including the closing, where I’m usually talking a lot more of, like, “Here’s what we do. Here’s how we help. Here… Hey, let me answer your questions about this.” So it’s largely just, it’s extremely diagnostic, and I think it’s just because I literally don’t know how to do it the proper way.

[00:12:32] Nathan: No, what you’re doing- But it works

[00:12:33] is the pr- is the, not the default way that human… If someone’s in sales, they’re like, “I gotta talk until I convince you of it.”

[00:12:39] Layla: Yeah.

[00:12:40] Nathan: But w- I think you are doing it the proper high conversion, all that way.

[00:12:45] Layla: It feels good, right? Like, it doesn’t feel like you’re doing something, like, you know, the sales has all those associations with it.

[00:12:51] It feels like, oh, I’m just, like, listening.

[00:12:53] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:12:53] Layla: And if we were grabbing coffee here… That’s what I’ll say usually at the end, like, “If we were grabbing coffee, I would suggest that you don’t work with us. Here’s why. You should probably go check out these guys instead.” That’s a pretty common, like, ending to a call, and that’s okay.

[00:13:04] Nathan: Yeah. We do that with Kit where, you know, or I was on a call recently with someone who, they were running, like, a media company in a more traditional way and all that, and we said, like, “Actually, this competitor of ours would be a much better fit for you.”

[00:13:16] Layla: Yep.

[00:13:16] Nathan: And they were like, “Really?”

[00:13:18] Layla: Yeah.

[00:13:18] Nathan: And we’re like, “Yeah, and here’s why.”

[00:13:20] And, you know, this is someone who was gonna work with a bunch of different brands, and so I was like, “Now, if you have, if you work with a brand that matches these criteria-

[00:13:27] Layla: Mm-hmm …

[00:13:28] Nathan: that’d be a perfect fit for us. But in this case, I think you should go with this other platform.” And it, it builds so much trust instantly.

[00:13:34] Mm-hmm.

[00:13:37] Oh. Wow. Yeah. Thank you. Yeah. And sometimes they’ll flip and be like, “No, but here’s why we should work with you.” Uh-huh. But, but most often they’re like, “Okay.” Yeah. “That sounds absolutely right.” And then you build all this goodwill that- Mm-hmm … lasts for a long time.

[00:13:48] Layla: Yeah, it’s almost like the difference between a sales call and a screening call.

[00:13:50] I honestly think the way we do it, it’s really a screening call, and I’ve only psychoanalyzed this because we’re now hiring someone for sales. Right. And so I’ve had to write down in text, “If it’s not a fit, tell them to go to these other competitors.” And I’m like, that’s a weird thing to be writing down.

[00:14:04] Nathan: Right.

[00:14:04] Layla: But also, it’s honest, so. But it’s in

[00:14:05] Nathan: your SOP.

[00:14:07] Layla: It’s in the SOP, yeah.

[00:14:08] Nathan: Okay, so you’re tracking a lot of numbers.

[00:14:10] Layla: Yeah.

[00:14:11] Nathan: And I love that. You know, you were talking earlier as we were in the car driving over, you were like, about how much you love math, right?

[00:14:16] Layla: As long as it’s not mental, yeah.

[00:14:17] Nathan: Yeah, exactly. We won’t do any math on the

[00:14:19] Layla: spot.

[00:14:19] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:14:19] Layla: Safe.

[00:14:20] Nathan: Safe. Safe

[00:14:20] Layla: space.

[00:14:20] Nathan: What are some of the metrics that you track in your business that are most important?

[00:14:24] Layla: The number one metric for me is runway.

[00:14:27] Nathan: Okay.

[00:14:27] Layla: So the number of months we can go if all revenue stops tomorrow.

[00:14:32] Nathan: Is that how much cash you have in the bank divided by your monthly expenses? Okay.

[00:14:34] Layla: Yeah. Specifically my non-opera- … So, like, I’ll have checking and savings. Yeah. Nothing fancy. I will just take the savings number and divide that by our average expenses, and to get the number of months of runway. And I broadcast that to the team as well as some other numbers every single month.

[00:14:48] Nathan: Okay.

[00:14:48] Layla: So they know and they have that peace of mind, ’cause I think the hard part about working for a small business is oftentimes you’re like, ”

[00:14:54] Nathan: Ugh.”

[00:14:55] Will we be here tomorrow?

[00:14:56] Layla: Yeah, exactly. And a lot of the folks that we’ve had join our team over the years have been people who were laid off. Mm-hmm. They were in tech. They got laid off during all of that stuff. Right. They’re like, “Hey, let’s try this thing.” And so I think it’s really important to model that.

[00:15:08] That’s my number one.

[00:15:09] Nathan: Do you have a rule of thumb of how mu- like, how many months of runway or?

[00:15:12] Layla: I used to have six. Mm-hmm. And then I realized that’s excessive. So I actually have a goal now. I’m in the process of whittling it down. I wanna be at three, because it’s just our savings account. We have checkings as well.

[00:15:23] I think three months would be great. I, I think everyone comes into business with their own money story. Yeah. You know, I was a scholarship kid, like, I, I didn’t know any of this world. Um, and so I had a tendency to just hoard.

[00:15:34] Nathan: Uh-huh.

[00:15:35] Layla: And I wouldn’t take a salary, and I wouldn’t… You know, I paid myself very little.

[00:15:39] And I had to kinda shift that and realize, you know what? Like, it’s good to put the profit into the business. It’s also good to actually take care of myself so I’m not, like, you know, squeezing every juice- Yeah … out of the lemon.

[00:15:49] Nathan: And then if you look maybe at your sales process or leads or, you know, you were mentioning even tracking down to how much you were talking on a sales call or being aware of that.

[00:15:59] Yeah.

[00:15:59] Layla: What

[00:15:59] Nathan: are some of the metrics- Yeah … in that process that are important to you?

[00:16:02] Layla: Oh my gosh. I mean, I, what I love about the services world is that it is so trackable as compared to an organic business that I had previously, where it’s like, oh, well, how many emails did we have? And then we only can track from there on.

[00:16:14] Here, we’ve got so many more touchpoints, but- The key numbers now are, uh, number of calls booked, number of days from a yes that someone can start a project. That is one that has been really eye-opening. And then, I mean, sales. So like sales count, how many have we sold in a t- a current period? Um, I wanna start tracking referrals.

[00:16:34] I haven’t really done too much with that yet other than being like, “Oh, yay, we’re getting referrals just a few months in. That’s amazing.” Um, but those are the, the service specific ones. And then funnels, I mean, between like the kit automations but also just the sales cycle in general, tracking like what percent go from call or s- from the call page to book a call, from booking a call to being qualified for an offer, from getting an offer to buying the offer.

[00:16:58] We just have each number in a spreadsheet, and it’s not high-tech, it’s just tracking a number once a week or once a month and counting And, you know, that’s worth it to me ’cause I understand what is actually not working, which is sometimes hard otherwise.

[00:17:13] Nathan: Yeah. What’s an example of in that spreadsheet and as you’re tracking things, finding something that’s not working, like finding a new bottleneck, and then digging in and fixing that?

[00:17:21] Layla: Yeah. We had one where, um, it was our webinar. We, we did a webinar launch to get people to book a call. Mm-hmm. We changed all of our main funnels from saying, “Buy our course,” to, “Actually, buy our service, and if you don’t want the service, get a course.”

[00:17:33] Nathan: Right.

[00:17:33] Layla: And so there was a big ref- redo, and we didn’t get the conversion we thought overall.

[00:17:37] Like, we had this many people. I think it was like 2,000 people registered for this webinar. I forget how many booked a call, but it wasn’t what we expected. It was, like, really low. Like, what’s happening? Ah. We went to our contractors. They’re like, “Ah.” The copywriter said it’s the ad’s fault. The ad said it’s the copywriter’s fault.

[00:17:51] Yeah. And they all thought it was the webinar’s fault, um, which might have been true. But then we looked at the numbers, and we actually saw the problem was the show-up rate. Hmm. And when we looked at it and we said, well, if the show-up rate to people who registered actually showed up was even within the realm of normal, we would’ve hit every single goal of that campaign.

[00:18:09] Every other conversion rate was exactly where it needed to be except for that one, and we wouldn’t have known that, and we had gotten misleading advice all over until we actually looked at the, just the math of how many people got to each step.

[00:18:19] Nathan: Did you run more webinars? And if so, how’d you fix the show-up rate?

[00:18:23] Layla: So we actually kept that same webinar because the webinar didn’t seem to be the problem. It was the show-up rate. Yeah. And we switched it to Evergreen, and then once they, uh, opt in through our kit form, uh, they then get automatically redirected to the, the webinar, the blueprint- Okay … which is our approach to systemizing.

[00:18:40] Therefore, no show-up problem because they literally see it upon redirect. And then we have an email sequence that makes sure if they clicked off very quickly, it takes them back there repeatedly. And

[00:18:50] Nathan: so- They have more opportunities to come back and watch it.

[00:18:51] Layla: Exactly. And I’m like, “Ugh, why didn’t we figure this sooner?”

[00:18:54] And

[00:18:54] Nathan: you’re not teaching it live-

[00:18:56] Layla: Yeah …

[00:18:57] Nathan: at all.

[00:18:58] Layla: No, I don’t- Do

[00:18:58] Nathan: you feel like you’re giving up anything in the webinar being pre-recorded?

[00:19:02] Layla: Oh, I’m sure. I’m sure. I mean, isn’t that, like, the whole thing of just choosing what you’re willing to give up?

[00:19:06] Nathan: Right.

[00:19:07] Layla: I’m, I’m happy to give that up and ex- and it, instead, though, I work with co- clients.

[00:19:12] Right. Like, I would rather have four one-on-ones with these high-end clients over a quarter than host four webinars, and I know for other people that math is different. I love teaching, but I film a YouTube video every week. Like, if you wanna hear me teach, there you go. Like, it’s fine. This webinar is, like, B.

[00:19:28] B, B+ maybe. Right. And I’m okay with that ’cause the math still supports that that’s not the bottleneck, so I’m not gonna solve it.

[00:19:33] Nathan: Okay, so let’s talk about bottlenecks because you have this laid out basically like a factory.

[00:19:38] Layla: Yeah.

[00:19:38] Nathan: You know? And, and I’m obsessed with the theory of constraints and-

[00:19:41] Layla: Yeah, okay

[00:19:42] Nathan: and finding- Yeah … finding the bottleneck, optimizing for that. What’s the biggest bottleneck in your business right now?

[00:19:48] Layla: As of last week, it was sales. Okay. People to take sales calls. So, like, the volume of calls that we had coming in, I was taking most of them. It was insane, tried to hire a salesperson.

[00:19:57] That was not gonna- You said you did

[00:19:57] Nathan: 100 calls last month?

[00:19:58] Layla: It was about 100 last month. Okay. Yeah. It was a lot. And then-

[00:20:01] Nathan: So clearly, uh, number of interested leads was not the bottleneck at all. No. It was, can we get on a call and actually close them?

[00:20:07] Layla: And you know what? Just quick side note for anyone out there who’s a product creator, a course creator, whatever, I would bet that’s other people’s experiences as well.

[00:20:14] Mm. I think we had waited so long to have some kind of one-on-one human touchpoint offer, that by the time we did, you know, the 20,000 people on our email list were like, “Oh my God, finally. Finally.” Like, when we just started sending out emails where it was just like, “Hey, if you wanna systemize your business and you’re tired of waiting around, click this link to book a call.”

[00:20:32] And that alone got a bunch of people to come through the journey. So I think a lot of folks are gonna be in that same situation, where demand is not the problem. And I don’t think we’ve yet hit the limit of what is just in our own list, candidly.

[00:20:44] Nathan: Okay, so you-

[00:20:44] Layla: Sorry. I got,

[00:20:45] Nathan: I get- I think that that’s obviously true, but you just said something that is very important.

[00:20:48] Layla: Oh,

[00:20:48] Nathan: gosh. And I want people to not skip over it.

[00:20:52] Layla: Okay.

[00:20:53] Nathan: You just said your email list is 20,000 people.

[00:20:55] Layla: Oh yeah, it’s tiny.

[00:20:56] Nathan: If we had… W- First of all, 20,000 people is, like, a basketball arena, so it’s a good number from that sense. But-

[00:21:01] Layla: Fair …

[00:21:02] Nathan: you know, for the numbers that you’re putting up, it’s very small.

[00:21:05] Layla: Yeah.

[00:21:06] Nathan: Right? Mm-hmm. And so if a lot of people, you know, think about, okay, revenue per subscriber- … all this per month, you know, I’m-

[00:21:12] Layla: Services! I might- Services.

[00:21:15] Nathan: You know, I might be like, okay, I’m making, uh, if I have 20,000 subscribers, maybe I’m making 100,000 a year. Like, that would be, a lot of people would say that’s good.

[00:21:24] Layla: What?

[00:21:24] Nathan: Uh, maybe- Yeah … like $200,000 a year. Now we’re making, like, professional, like, you pr- went to school for a long time to make that amount of money and all that. And you’re like, “Yeah, no, we’ll, like, if we can’t accelerate things throughout the rest of the year, we’ll cap out about 1.5 million this year on 20,000.”

[00:21:38] And you’re like, “But I think we can accelerate things a lot more.”

[00:21:41] Layla: Really, truly. And you know what, to be real with you, I talk a lot of time about, like, for folks who are interested in starting a YouTube channel, I’m like, I don’t know what I’m doing, but I started a YouTube channel. Like, it kinda helped. It was around 5,000 YouTube subscribers, which are far less valuable than email subscribers, that my entire book of business, I was booked out six months.

[00:21:58] Like, that’s why I went into the courses and memberships and all these other things to begin with, ’cause I was trying to solve that problem. It does not take a large audience by any means to make a really sizable and meaningful business. But most people don’t think about it. They’re so consumed with the audience, whereas I guess I kind of approached it from the opposite perspective.

[00:22:17] I only went on YouTube to build my book of business, and then when that was, like, going pretty well, I’m like, I don’t need any more YouTube followers. Right. This is fine. Get on my email list and we’ll, we’ll take it from there.

[00:22:26] Nathan: I’m curious about this. So if we have- 1.5 million in annual revenue divided-

[00:22:33] Layla: But per subscriber, is that where you’re

[00:22:34] Nathan: going?

[00:22:35] By 20,000. So we’re at $75 in revenue per subscriber.

[00:22:39] Layla: Yeah.

[00:22:40] Nathan: And that’s a helpful number to, it’s a fantastic number, but it, it’s a help- revenue per subscriber total is helpful to think about You know, if you’re comparing between different business models- Sure … all that know is a total. You could end up…

[00:22:53] There’s a couple traps in that number. Um, the first one is that it’s always, it’s total annual revenue divided by total subscriber count.

[00:23:02] Layla: At the beginning of the year.

[00:23:03] Nathan: Yeah, at the beginning of the year, but also a lot of those people might have been on your list for a long time.

[00:23:08] Layla: Yeah.

[00:23:08] Nathan: That sort of thing.

[00:23:09] Yeah. Yeah. So it could both mask that you’re bringing in better subscribers who are paying more, or, or it could mask that a lot of people have been on this list for a long time, they’re never gonna buy.

[00:23:20] Layla: Sure.

[00:23:21] Nathan: And, or, you know, or they’ve already purchased. Or you might say, “Okay, wow, $75 per subscriber. I could be running meta ads at $6 per subscriber.”

[00:23:30] You know, which would be a crazy amount of money to spend. And you, if you weren’t tracking cohorts, you might find that the new subscribers you’re bringing in are very poor quality, but it’s blended in the total averages, and you might

[00:23:42] Layla: not find out. I’ve not done that at all.

[00:23:44] Nathan: Um.

[00:23:45] Layla: Yeah.

[00:23:45] Nathan: Yeah. I, I’ve definitely done that.

[00:23:47] But-

[00:23:47] Layla: Yeah …

[00:23:48] Nathan: that’s where, you know, if you could track revenue per subscriber, um, over a 90-day period after they come in, that could be something like, then you would, you would notice early on, oh, these new YouTube videos that are driving leads are, you know, driving really high quality subscribers. Or they’re, ooh, actually this, this video did great, but like 90 days later, the leads that came from that weren’t actually worth much.

[00:24:14] Yeah. And so, um, I just think it’s a really important metric, uh, to look at and track, and more people should do that.

[00:24:20] Layla: Yeah, the, I mean, the ability to track UTMs and just see- Mm-hmm … which video generated subscribers. Right. I mean, it was kind of a, a sit down conversation with our YouTube person who’s, like, setting everything up for YouTube.

[00:24:29] I was like, “Hey, I don’t care about subscriber count. I don’t care about watch time in so much as, you know, I need to, but what I do care about is how many subscribers do we get to our email list per video? I wanna know what that is and produce more videos like that.” And you only know that if you’re tracking that information.

[00:24:44] Right. I guess the other thing I will say that has been helpful in that regard is in wasting a ton of money on meta ads, hypothetically speaking, um, I don’t know, we probably wasted like $40,000 in meta ads, if I’m being…

[00:24:56] Nathan: Yeah,

[00:24:56] Layla: not the only one, hopefully. In that journey, one of the things I realized is we should be tracking organic stuff at the same level that we’re tracking paid ads.

[00:25:03] Nathan: Yes.

[00:25:04] Layla: And so our, the amount of times my team is going into Kit, pulling numbers, being like, “How many people are in this segment of they started the sequence? How many bought during the sequence? Wait 90 days later. Who bought something since that opt-in?” Right. Like, that’s why I feel like even though I’m saying all these numbers, I don’t think my business has ever been simpler in some ways, even with courses and memberships and services now, because it now feels very do, do, do.

[00:25:25] It’s a flywheel.

[00:25:26] Nathan: Mm-hmm. Okay. So let’s dive into that, ’cause a lot of people make this as- assumption that, like, at- 100,000 a year I can run a very simple business, and then at 500,000 a year it has to be more complex. And if I wanna do something, if I ever wanna break a million, like, I’ve gotta have, like, a very sophisticated…

[00:25:43] It’s gotta be brilliant, and there’s, you know, I’m gonna get up on the board and with, I got the string, and I’m gonna outline, and it, it’ll be a little complicated. But I’ll explain to you how we broke through a million dollars.

[00:25:51] Layla: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:25:52] Nathan: And the story that I hear- I bought that … over and over again- Yeah

[00:25:55] is, “Actually, I found a slightly different model. I simplified, I eliminated things, and revenue doubled.”

[00:26:02] Layla: Yep. And if I can make it even worse, even more of like a ugh. I actually basically went back to what I was doing in 2019.

[00:26:11] Nathan: Okay.

[00:26:11] Layla: So I, I remember telling my team in the beginning of 2025, “The theme of 2025 is 2019.”

[00:26:17] We went back to the same service. Like, I’m essentially offering the same services I offered then, but in a, a slightly different flow now with more established IP, which was worth the detour. But everything we’re doing is just simplifying back to what I did essentially as a one-and-a-half person business.

[00:26:33] Except now, doing it at a different level, ’cause I, I needed that detour.

[00:26:37] Nathan: Okay, so this gets to one of my business rants. Oh, yes. Uh, and that is, uh, one of my least favorite quotes in business.

[00:26:44] Layla: Uh-huh.

[00:26:44] Nathan: It sounds so smart.

[00:26:45] Layla: Okay. ”

[00:26:46] Nathan: What got you here-”

[00:26:48] Layla: Mm “…

[00:26:48] Nathan: won’t get you there.”

[00:26:49] Layla: Mm-hmm.

[00:26:50] Nathan: Yeah. And I think that is true 50% of the time.

[00:26:55] And the other 50% of the time- … it’s absolutely not true.

[00:26:58] Layla: And if it’s only right 50% of the time, we’re basically just studying the weather. Yeah. And then it’s like, why are we even saying this? Yeah. What, what, what got you here may probably- Mm-hmm … yes or no get you there.

[00:27:08] Nathan: May or may not get

[00:27:09] Layla: you there.

[00:27:09] Nathan: That’s

[00:27:09] Layla: sort of the point, yeah.

[00:27:10] Nathan: So on one hand, w- it brings up aspects of it where you’re like, you should absolutely question whether the activities that got you to a certain revenue level are the right things- Right … to get to the next stage. Maybe before we did it solo, now we need to do it as a team. The behaviors that you show up with of like, “Okay, I gotta be super scrappy, I gotta do it all myself.

[00:27:29] That’s the only way we’re gonna hustle through this.” And now at this later stage it might be like, “Oh, I need to hire team members that I can give an outcome to, not just a task.” Yeah. And, right? And so that, that’s a what got you here won’t get you there. Sure. The inverse, I go- I’ll share, you know, you, you shared one from your life right?

[00:27:46] Of like, oh, service has got me here. It won’t get me there. It’s only taken- Oh, wait, just kidding … it’s taken- It actually will. Yeah,

[00:27:51] Layla: a five-year detour.

[00:27:53] Nathan: So for Kit, we, direct sales is the thing that made all of the difference. We used direct sales to go from 2,000 a month in revenue to 100,000 a month in 12 months.

[00:28:03] Layla: Wow.

[00:28:03] Nathan: And then we continued direct sales, and we applied that to affiliates and partnerships to go from 100,000 to 500,000 a month in the next 12 months. Incredible. In a 24-month period-

[00:28:13] Layla: Mm-hmm …

[00:28:13] Nathan: we went from two grand to $500,000 a month, and it was absolutely insane.

[00:28:18] Layla: Yeah.

[00:28:18] Nathan: And then we said, now we need to do the thing that all grown-up software companies do.

[00:28:22] And that’s where we should have all of our marketing channels, they should be dialed in. You know, paid ads, all of that.

[00:28:27] Layla: And take out the thing that

[00:28:29] Nathan: was working. And we… And the idea is like, that’s working, so we’ll just keep it going. And we spent, oh, the next four years probably, still growing really well, but at the same linear amounts.

[00:28:40] We would add about $4 million to $5 million in annual revenue every year. Mm-hmm. But never accelerated it.

[00:28:46] Layla: Yeah.

[00:28:47] Nathan: And we kept going back to like, affiliates is fine as a channel, but it’s limiting. And direct sales, like no one… You can’t scale

[00:28:55] Layla: through direct sales.

[00:28:56] Nathan: No. You know, espe- It’s like

[00:28:56] Layla: services.

[00:28:57] Nathan: What are you thinking?

[00:28:57] Especially at our price point. Like, that’ll never work.

[00:28:59] Layla: Yeah.

[00:29:00] Nathan: Until… And then I kinda went back and realized, like wait a second. What were we do… When things were really working, what were we doing? And we turned around and we really embraced direct sales, and then both to acquire customers and to acquire affiliates and partners, and it worked so well.

[00:29:17] And, you know, and so it was like, oh, what got us here might actually be really good at getting us there. And I think as entrepreneurs, you know, w- we do this thing where we listen to smart people on podcasts-

[00:29:30] Layla: Yeah …

[00:29:30] Nathan: who run different businesses than we do.

[00:29:32] Layla: Mm-hmm.

[00:29:33] Nathan: And we go, “Oh, you know what?” Or we go to, go to, uh, to masterminds, that sort of thing.

[00:29:39] Mm-hmm. You know, “You know what? I’m all in on growing on Instagram.” And someone’s like, “Hey, LinkedIn’s pretty great for me.” And you’re like, “Never mind- Okay. I’m gonna- … I’m all in on growing on LinkedIn.” Yep, yep, yep. You know, we’re like jumping from thing to thing and doing it all at once. Then you end up doing all of these things pretty mediocre instead of saying, “You know what?

[00:29:53] This is what we’re really good at, and we’re going to go. We’re going to keep scaling that thing.” We might make some little tweaks. We’ll question it and, and all that. But yeah, what got us here will probably get us there.

[00:30:06] Layla: You know what’s funny about that is, one of the practices I started, which I, I understand you might have something pretty similar, is I started making a log of key events in my business- Mm-hmm

[00:30:14] back in 2020, which was a great time to start tracking. So, like, major decision, major release, major product, I would log it in this one just, like, kind of spreadsheety thing. It was inside our ClickUp, and just here’s all the dates. And I would share that with new people when they would join the team.

[00:30:28] Here’s our story, just so you know. Okay. Like, we started this in 2020. Here’s, like, it was a VA business at first- Mm … and here’s how it evolved. Um, and it’s funny looking at that now because you can very much see the circularity of, like, now we’re going full circle, and it’s great to have that.

[00:30:43] Nathan: Everything old is new again.

[00:30:44] Layla: Everything old is new. But I think what’s fair to acknowledge in the won’t, you know, what got you here won’t get you there piece, is the reason why I thought I had to change was because I didn’t wanna do it in this way. Like, there were certain things that I associated with being a one-on-one service provider, and I mean, they’re trite at this point, and I was like, “Ah, I just don’t wanna do this.

[00:31:05] I’m an introvert. That’s not gonna be my superpower. I have a competitive- Okay … disadvantage to having conversations with people all the ti- especially this one, you know? Really painful.

[00:31:13] Nathan: No. That’s right.

[00:31:14] Layla: Yeah. And so I just made this story up that, like, because I don’t have a lot of energy, I’m not great with people, you know, da-da-da, like, this isn’t gonna work for me.

[00:31:21] And so therefore, I need to go over here. It became a Spark, uh, South Park episode. Because of that, therefore we went into this, but then this, but then this. And I think now when I have friends who are kind of going through an offer transition, having now gone through what seems like every model under the sun in eight years, um, I feel like it’s important to ask, why do you not wanna continue with the thing you’re doing?

[00:31:43] What do you think continuing with one-on-one services looks like, and what if it was not case, uh, not the case? You know, what if there was a world with which, you know, you could have one-on-one services, but you didn’t have to talk to a lot of people all the time. Would that be interesting? Oh, it would. Okay.

[00:31:57] Well, good news. ‘

[00:31:59] Nathan: Cause one-on-one services tells me, like, when you hear it- Yeah … you think, okay, so you’re doing client work.

[00:32:05] Layla: Mm-hmm.

[00:32:06] Nathan: And you are spending maybe five hours a week on content or lead gen or that sort of thing. Yeah. And then 40 hours a week on actually doing the work, and then the next 15 to 20 hours a week on the business admin and all of that, making sure everyone pays and everything else.

[00:32:22] And that does not sound enjoyable.

[00:32:24] Layla: No.

[00:32:24] Nathan: And that does not sound like a good way to scale.

[00:32:26] Layla: Mm-mm.

[00:32:26] Nathan: And so when people hear, oh, you went from products to services-

[00:32:29] Layla: Mm-hmm …

[00:32:30] Nathan: you know, in the ladders of wealth, you went from ladder four back to ladder two or three-

[00:32:34] Layla: Yeah …

[00:32:35] Nathan: then everyone’s like, “That’s terrible. I don’t want that.”

[00:32:37] Layla: Mm-hmm.

[00:32:38] Nathan: And so- What it sounds like you did is you, you noticed the particular parts of it, and y- I mean, you took the best parts of products, and you took the best parts of services- … and really were intentional about your time and the systems behind it, and you said, “Oh, I wanna have it all.”

[00:32:53] Layla: Yeah. You, you make it sound really smart there.

[00:32:55] Like, that’s not… Like, just to be clear, that’s the, that’s the- That’s not how it played out … Instagram version. Yeah. No. No, no, no, no, no. But yeah, yeah, yeah, sure, let’s play it off that way. Um, it was, it was, you know, a lot more painful than that. Each time, each year, especially hitting that plateau, like, I was used to growing, especially during COVID, as so many of us did really well during COVID, especially in digital work- like, helping digital workers work together.

[00:33:15] Like, I was in a pretty good position to-

[00:33:17] Nathan: Right …

[00:33:17] Layla: grow during

[00:33:18] Nathan: COVID. There was a wave that you were riding.

[00:33:19] Layla: Yeah. And, and that felt great to grow year over year and double and this, that, and the other, and then just, like, boop, boop, boop, boop, boop, boop, boop, what the heck’s happening here? Month over month, it’s the same.

[00:33:28] So, like, there was a lot of pain involved in realizing I needed to reflect on it. And one of the reasons, we talked about this earlier, I released a YouTube video showing what my calendar looks like in each of these business models. Oh, okay. Because that’s a real piece of it, and I didn’t know until I did it.

[00:33:43] Because no one talks about, what does it actually mean to be a course creator? How is your time being spent? Versus, what does your time look like if you’re a membership owner? Done that now. Here’s how my, like, across the team or when it was just me, here’s how time was actually spent, you know? People think, community, ah, perfect, people are gonna talk to each other.

[00:34:00] No. You’ve got 15-minute breaks where you’re in that forum a few times a day, especially if it’s just you. And, and there’s a re- a calendar implication for every business model, especially when you’re small. And so knowing that you’re ready to sign up for that in a short, you know, one-year period as you’re scaling it up, and then you figure out which pieces you wanna get off of your calendar, I, I thought that was really freeing, but it was not a smooth, perfect, like, da, da, da intentional process as it now feels like it was.

[00:34:28] Nathan: So let’s dive into that, because what your calendar looks like is such an important thing. It’s huge. In 2019, when you’re doing the services-

[00:34:33] Layla: Yeah …

[00:34:34] Nathan: what did your calendar look like then? Okay,

[00:34:36] Layla: 2019, um, I probably had about four clients at one time, four or five, whose, I think I called it System Up at the time, where I was doing full-on, uh, honestly, same kind of service I’m doing now, where I’ll help you set up a work management software, train your entire team, migrate all your data.

[00:34:52] Probably was working for about 40 to $50 an hour at that point, I would think. Okay. And I was just constantly doing fulfillment. Um, I had very few sales calls, because if I had a call, it closed ’cause I was undercharging. There’s a good sign, right? Closing more than 50%, you’re doing something wrong, not good.

[00:35:11] Nathan: Oh, I mean, that’s such an important point. Okay, yeah. ‘Cause everyone was like, you know, what’s … Like, if you were to ask someone, “What’s your ideal close rate?” They’d be, I mean, 100%.

[00:35:20] Layla: Yeah.

[00:35:20] Nathan: And you’re like, “No.”

[00:35:22] Layla: I respect, respect to this person, someone, uh, at the event that we were just at was like, “My close rate is 70%.”

[00:35:27] I said, “Uh-oh.” And they looked at me very confused. I’m like, “Wait, wait, wait. Wait, wait, wait.” “Congratulations, you get a raise.”

[00:35:34] Nathan: Right. Exactly. What, what do you want your close rate to be now?

[00:35:38] Layla: Right now, I want it to be, especially now that I have other people doing the calls, I want it to be, like, 20%.

[00:35:43] Nathan: Okay.

[00:35:43] Layla: Yeah.

[00:35:43] Because at this point, if someone’s not a fit and they have that positive experience with our, you know, person, or, or me, if they have that positive experience, it’s actually better for me.

[00:35:53] Nathan: Right.

[00:35:53] Layla: So I’m okay with 20%. That still covers all the costs and then some, and, like, we’re still groovy there. Um, so 20 to 30%, but 20% is good for me.

[00:36:01] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:36:01] Layla: Because-

[00:36:02] Nathan: And so if it were to creep up to 35%, you would say, “We’re undercharging.”

[00:36:06] Layla: Yep.

[00:36:06] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:36:07] Layla: Raise the prices, I think. Um, but in this point, it’s great to have that other 80% becoming advocates-

[00:36:12] Nathan: Right …

[00:36:12] Layla: in some way, because it really does, it is what it’s doing. Yeah,

[00:36:14] Nathan: make sure they have a great experience.

[00:36:16] You can leave them with other resources that you could say, like, “Hey, it’s not at the right fit-

[00:36:19] Layla: Yeah …

[00:36:20] Nathan: for it to work together right now. But, like, implement all of this.” Maybe someone comes in, they’re like, “Hey, we’re at half a million a year in revenue. We really- Yeah … need these systems and processes, and you’re just too expensive for us.”

[00:36:29] And you’re like, “Yeah, we are.”

[00:36:30] Layla: Right. ”

[00:36:31] Nathan: Why don’t you go take this?”

[00:36:32] Layla: Take our course.

[00:36:33] Nathan: Yep. “Go ahead and- Mm-hmm … implement all of that. And if at any point in the future you need help, we’d, we’d love to help you.”

[00:36:39] Layla: Yeah. One of the best things about doing this now for a while, the same offer over. Mm-hmm. Like, I’ve had the same offer for like six years.

[00:36:44] Six

[00:36:45] Nathan: of the eight. Oh, that’s another thing. All these creators are like, in order to scale, in order to break a million, I need new offers. I need, uh, multiple offers. Like- Yeah … m- maybe if I had the fourth product-

[00:36:54] Layla: Yeah …

[00:36:54] Nathan: then that will get me through the- Mm-hmm … glass ceiling.

[00:36:57] Layla: I mean, for me, it wasn’t true. I had, you know, my goal, you know, one of the pieces of advice I heard very early on from a free SCORE mentor.

[00:37:04] Shout out to SCORE, who’s a free, you know, small business administration in the US. Yeah. You get free mentorship through them. I had a SCORE mentor who was saying, you know, “Layla, brand is what you are known for when you leave the room. And business…” I don’t think this was his quote, but, “Business is about finding a problem so interesting you wanna spend 10 years solving it.”

[00:37:21] Yeah. Those two truths were kinda like my rock for the first beginning piece. So it took me two years to figure out my problem, but once I found it, I was like, why would I create more products? That’s almost a problem in some ways. But I created one product. Here is the solution for how to systemize your business of five to 50 people making five to 50 million.

[00:37:37] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:37:37] Layla: What is the perfect way to do that? Uh, that was not something I could just create. I, I created it, and then I refilmed that course just about every year, every six months. Updating, rebuilding, re- reformatting, re whatever.

[00:37:49] Nathan: Right. Okay. Yeah, that’s amazing. All right. So, um, you were saying you’re charging $40 to $50 an hour.

[00:37:54] Layla: Yeah.

[00:37:55] Nathan: Um, spending almost all your, all of your time on fulfillment.

[00:37:57] Layla: Yeah. Well- 2018 was even worse. It was $20 an hour or so. Sheesh.

[00:38:00] Nathan: I mean, we’re just doubling revenue, right? Yeah.

[00:38:03] Layla: I have a theme here.

[00:38:05] Nathan: Yeah, exactly. Started from the bottom.

[00:38:08] Layla: Started from the bottom, now we’re here.

[00:38:09] Nathan: What was revenue in 2019? Do you remember?

[00:38:11] Layla: Oh, gosh. I don’t know. Um, I wanna say it was like 100- Okay … 120, I think. Yeah. So I, I’m pretty sure the first year, I started in April. Officially, I got the paperwork on April Fool’s Day 2018. Oh, nice.

[00:38:22] Nathan: What a joke.

[00:38:22] Layla: Yeah. No, it was so perfect too, ’cause I didn’t even realize it. And then after I got the paperwork, ’cause it was like a f- online form and it printed out, and I was like, “Yep, yep.

[00:38:29] Okay.” Perfect.

[00:38:31] Nathan: My entire new business is-

[00:38:33] Layla: Is April Fool’s Day.

[00:38:34] Nathan: Yep. My brother’s birthday is April 1st, so I always tease him about it.

[00:38:36] Layla: Oh, perfect. Yeah. So, um, yeah. So I had my joke of a business. My plan at the beginning was to do this for two years, and then go back to corporate. Okay. I just wanted to get two years of experience.

[00:38:45] Mm-hmm. And I was like, “Oh, this will be a free or paid way to do it.” But it was 45K, I think, that first year, or 44K. And then, um, I think it was like 120.

[00:38:53] Nathan: In 2019?

[00:38:54] Layla: Yeah. Okay. In the next year. But I was working my ass off.

[00:38:57] Nathan: Yeah. Oh, yeah. I was

[00:38:57] Layla: working my ass off. Yeah.

[00:38:59] Nathan: And so then what did, what did it look like to kind of the next iteration of the business?

[00:39:05] Layla: Backing up, in 2018, I was really just doing virtual assistant stuff, which is part of where the $20 an hour came in. I remember I had a client being like, “You are, you know, you, you graduated from this great school. Like, why are you charging $20 an hour?” Yeah. Bless this heart. Like, thank you so much, Lisa. Um, that was a great experience.

[00:39:21] And so then I moved on and I read the book The Goal, which is about, you know, throughput, theory of constraint stuff. Yep. Oh, yeah. And I was like, “Okay. Hmm, I need to get my stuff together.” But-

[00:39:29] Nathan: It’s one of those books that all the business nerds have entirely read, and everyone else who’s just, like, wants the, the, the business fluff is like, “Oh, I’ve never touched that book.”

[00:39:39] Yeah. You know? They look at it and they’re like, “This looks like it was written in the ’70s or ’80s.” You’re like, “It was.” It

[00:39:43] Layla: was, yeah. This

[00:39:43] Nathan: looks like this is just for business. It is. It is,

[00:39:46] Layla: yeah.

[00:39:46] Nathan: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And, but then you get, you know- Mm-hmm … people like you and I are, like, obsessed with this book.

[00:39:50] Layla: Yeah.

[00:39:50] Well, I was an econ major, so I was like, “Ah, speaking my language.” Um, s- but reading that book and then, uh, Built to Sell, right? I was reading those. I was like, “All right. I really need to productize this.” So I did productized service in 2019, which is how I got over 100K, and that felt like a hurdle. The next year, I think it was in 250.

[00:40:06] I think it was doubling pretty consistently at that point. The next year is when I was using productized service pretty heavily. Like, everything was a productized service. It was six weeks or eight weeks or whatever, productized. And around that time, I guess we would’ve been in 2020.

[00:40:19] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:40:20] Layla: Some things started happening.

[00:40:21] And I remember it was, I had four or five clients, and one or two of them dropped due to COVID. And I was like, “What am I gonna do?” Like, I’ve got free time. Pff, enjoy it? No. So I started fil- ‘Cause we don’t do

[00:40:34] Nathan: that. Yeah. We’re entrepreneurs.

[00:40:35] Layla: Yeah. Like, this is massively uncomfortable. Um, and also, like, I just lost a significant chunk of revenue, right?

[00:40:42] When you’re in, you know, that kind of services, it’s 40% of your revenue potentially gone, so you lose a lot of revenue, and I decided to film YouTube videos during that. Mm-hmm. And I just filmed the responses to client questions. So for my remaining clients- Yeah … when they asked a question, I’d film the answer, put it on YouTube, and then send it to them.

[00:40:58] Mm. And that’s the, the other inflection point that changed the business. I think that one and, and honestly services are the two major pivot points that have really made a significant difference.

[00:41:08] Nathan: So, uh, that’s a, a content format that I love because, uh, I first learned this from Tim Ferriss, I don’t know who he learned it from, was to write to one person.

[00:41:19] Layla: Yeah.

[00:41:19] Nathan: Because we do this thing where we’re like, “Okay, what could everyone possibly wanna know about systems and processes?” This, like, broad- Why would

[00:41:26] Layla: anyone want to learn about this? Yeah,

[00:41:28] Nathan: or whatever the thing is that we’re teaching. Yeah. And so then we write this generic, like, it answers all these questions and all that.

[00:41:34] It’s not written to anyone in particular, and it’s just not very good. Yeah. And it’s hard. Like, you end up with this writer’s block all the time.

[00:41:40] Layla: Yeah.

[00:41:41] Nathan: And if instead you just have one person and you say, “Okay, let me answer this question for them.” So I actually wrote, um, my book on designing web applications.

[00:41:49] I wrote it to my brother-in-law- Hmm … because he was early in his design career and had just gotten his first jo- you know, um, job in design. And so every time I was like, “Okay, what does he need to know?”

[00:42:00] Layla: Yeah.

[00:42:01] Nathan: And so I would write, “Philip,” comma, enter, enter, and then I’d write a whole chapter. And then I’d go back and then I’d delete his name ’cause that’s weird in a book.

[00:42:08] Layla: Yeah, that would be weird.

[00:42:09] Nathan: That would be very odd if someone’s name’s all, Philip. Um, and it helped me write so much better because I could, I, you know, wrote naturally, wrote directly to him. The same thing is, you know, as content creators, we always think about, like, “Oh, what should I create?” All that. And you’re just going, “Well, what, what problems are top of mind for my ideal client?”

[00:42:28] Layla: Yeah.

[00:42:29] Nathan: Okay, let me go to my actual client.

[00:42:30] Layla: Yeah.

[00:42:31] Nathan: And then what I love about your example is someone asks you this question, and you’re like, “Hey, I wanna over-deliver. So maybe I would record a Loom video, like walking through talking about it, and send it to them.”

[00:42:42] Layla: Yeah.

[00:42:43] Nathan: And then… And what most people do is they would do that, and then they’re like, “Okay, and then I’ll use that as a basis to go make the other video.”

[00:42:49] Layla: Yes, exactly.

[00:42:51] Nathan: And you’re like, “Why don’t I just make the good video-”

[00:42:53] Layla: Yeah … and s- Well, no, it wasn’t good. W- w-

[00:42:55] Nathan: w- w- it was- No, it did good. Sorry, I set the bar a little too high. Yeah. Um, but why don’t I just make the public video, send that to them- Yeah … and say, “Hey, I made this just for you, and I thought it’d be helpful for a few other people also put it on YouTube”?

[00:43:05] Layla: Yep, exactly. Um,

[00:43:06] Nathan: I love it. I mean, there’s quite the content flywheel in that.

[00:43:09] Layla: Oh, it was beautiful, and honestly, I don’t think I knew it until, like, one of the best things about my business is I work with people who are smarter than me exclusively. Like, I’m sorry. Yeah. Like, there’s no one I work with that’s, you know, I can’t learn a ton from.

[00:43:21] And just like I had that client tell me, “You’re an idiot for charging $20,” she said in a much nicer way- Yeah … um, I had a client who was an author. Um, it wasn’t what he was doing. He was working at a construction firm. Hey, Mark. And Mark said- Layla, I love the fact that you didn’t answer my question. You sent me a YouTube video that just published a minute ago, how coincidental-

[00:43:38] about exactly my question. And he called it out, and he actually had the CEO of the business he was working on as the operator start doing that for his team. Mm. And they started a YouTube channel or some kinda Instagram reels, the same thing. Right. But I didn’t know it. I didn’t see it. I was just being lazy, and I didn’t wanna pay for file storage.

[00:43:54] And so YouTube was free, and so…

[00:43:57] Nathan: I didn’t… So it wasn’t even intentional.

[00:43:59] Layla: No, no, no, no. Not at first. Right. Not at first.

[00:44:01] Nathan: You’re like, “I could pay for a Loom account. I could…” Or Vimeo or is there anything you can use? Yeah, yeah, Vimeo. Yeah. Dropbox or whatever, or YouTube is free. And so…

[00:44:08] Layla: Exactly. And then when other people who weren’t my clients started seeing it, then I was like, “Oh, okay.”

[00:44:13] ‘Cause I thought at first, “Oh, I have a link I can send to more clients.” Right. That was the thinking. And then when I started getting clients from YouTube, which happened very, very early on, I was like, “Okay, this is totally different than I thought.”

[00:44:25] Nathan: It’s such an interesting thing, ’cause everyone is hung up on what content should I make.

[00:44:29] Which is strange to me. And so even, like, internal company content, right? Or any of that, you can just say, “What questions do people have?” And just answer the questions.

[00:44:36] Layla: But I think people get hung up on hypothetically, what are the themes we’re struggling with?

[00:44:40] Nathan: Right.

[00:44:40] Layla: Hypothetically, who would I talk to? Like, we think about, like, Pam, the imagination.

[00:44:45] You know, like, we imagine this person. Right. Our, our

[00:44:46] Nathan: avatar that

[00:44:47] Layla: we- An avatar. Yeah. Yep. When I first… I think my first video was for Suzette. I remember Suzette, like specifically. Right. And I didn’t say her name in the video out of protection, but I’ll shout her out here. But you know, when I was filming the videos, like, I had a client today ask me, “How do you connect Cognito Forms to Gmail?

[00:45:03] Here’s an answer, and how you can use this for your follow-up process.”

[00:45:06] Nathan: Right.

[00:45:06] Layla: And that’s it. And she felt very seen by it. Um, but I just think it needs to be a real person. Like, like, you know what I mean? Like, we need to have people who are real and not just this imaginary thing, and real questions in the same way.

[00:45:18] Nathan: We were at a table at this mastermind having a conversation yesterday about functionality in Kit.

[00:45:22] Layla: I was so afraid which conversation- … you were gonna pull from for a second here. I was like, ”

[00:45:26] Nathan: Oh.” Yeah, yeah. So, like, how to make more content. Yeah. And so the thing that I’ve been thinking about separately is how to make more content that directly shows how people use Kit and all of that.

[00:45:33] Layla: Mm-hmm.

[00:45:33] Nathan: And to do it in an easy way. Right? And so something that came up, we were talking about, um- tags and how you organize and manage tags and how to find them. And we added this whole new interface, and I was asking, like, “Is this better? How is it?” And all that. And it was like, “Well, I… It’s better in some ways and worse than others-

[00:45:48] because now we’re lazy loading the tags, and so you can’t do Command + F-

[00:45:53] Layla: Yep …

[00:45:54] Nathan: and just search for all the tags.

[00:45:55] Layla: Mm-hmm.

[00:45:55] Nathan: And so I was like, “Oh, man, I hate it when we… it’s like two steps forward, one step back in something we do with the product.” And I hadn’t heard that feedback before.

[00:46:04] Layla: Really?

[00:46:05] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:46:06] Layla: Oh, my God. And- Come on, Kit users.

[00:46:08] Let’s get together here.

[00:46:10] Nathan: And so I just heard people were so excited that there were folders for tags.

[00:46:13] Layla: Yes. That is also true.

[00:46:14] Nathan: And so I told that to my team this morning, and I was like, “Hey, I heard this feedback. I’m not sure the best way to handle it, but let- let’s start to think about it.” And one of our engineers piped in and said, um, “Well, totally hear that.

[00:46:28] We can fix that. But did they know that if you press Command + K- Mm-hmm … that you can search for a tag just right there?” Or if you g- press FT for find tag-

[00:46:39] Layla: Ah.

[00:46:39] Nathan: It pulls up- Uh-huh … a list of all of your tags and lets you just

[00:46:42] Layla: type- ‘Cause you’ve got the command bar built in.

[00:46:43] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:46:44] Layla: I didn’t even realize that.

[00:46:45] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:46:45] And so what this makes me think of, not that we’re trying to promote Kit content right now.

[00:46:48] Layla: Yeah, no.

[00:46:49] Nathan: Forget Kit. But I, I could make a video-

[00:46:51] Layla: Yeah …

[00:46:51] Nathan: that says, “So I was talking to a Kit customer the other day.” Yeah. “And they asked me about this, which made me realize a lot of people don’t know about these power features inside of Kit.

[00:46:59] If you press command K, if you do this. If you press N and then B, it’s not for Nathan Barry, it’s for new broadcast, and it jumps you right to the new broad-” Right? And so that’s just this, you know, talk to customers, hear what they want, and then I could make videos just about that, and I would have quite the…

[00:47:15] Like, I would have an endless stream of things to make, and it would be highly relevant, you know, to you and Chanel, right? Yeah. And then probably also to a few, a few thousand other people.

[00:47:25] Layla: And everyone that we talk to about it. Yeah.

[00:47:28] Nathan: Right.

[00:47:28] Layla: Yeah, that was where I first bonded with Chanel, actually, was about Kit, uh, analytics.

[00:47:32] But I think that’s huge, and I think one of the things… Can we go back to flywheels? Yeah. Um, one of the things that people, you know, they shit on service is, ’cause they’re like, “Ah, God, so much work, execution.”

[00:47:41] Nathan: Time for money, all of the stuff.

[00:47:42] Layla: All the stuff. It is the best research and dev- You are paid to make your product better, and that’s why when I started this service, I was like, “I’m gonna deliver the first ones.

[00:47:51] Like, you’re gonna get a great rate. I’m gonna do the sales call. I’m delivering it.” And it helped me make that product better, but also the course better. And one of the conversations I was having last year when we were, like, passive income business, I was like, “I want more impact. I wanna make sure we’re, we’re getting better, and I don’t feel like we’re getting better at the grade I want to to be done with this journey and have the answer.”

[00:48:11] And when you have s- like, to go back to the b-benefits of services, conversations with your customers-

[00:48:16] Nathan: Right …

[00:48:17] Layla: especially if you’re paid to have them, that’s not too bad either. Like, you will learn so much more than any fricking survey or market research study or analytics or numbers will ever tell you, because you’re able to learn from actually being with them and telling you what they wouldn’t otherwise tell you, and better still, seeing, like, we do screen sharing.

[00:48:37] We see more in that story than what they would ever tell us on an intake form.

[00:48:41] Nathan: Right. Yeah, ’cause if you’re just like, oh, how ClickUp or something is used in the ideal world-

[00:48:47] Layla: Yep …

[00:48:47] Nathan: we look at it in the tutorials and the marketing videos and all of that. Mm-hmm. And, but if you actually get into some of the, you’re like, “That?”

[00:48:54] Okay. All right, that’s how you use it. All right, let’s, let me meet you in reality-

[00:48:59] Layla: Yeah …

[00:48:59] Nathan: and help you with that.

[00:49:00] Layla: Yeah. We were telling, uh, so I’ve been hiring coaches, right? Who are fulfilling this, and one of the mantras I have for the coaches is, “Make sure that you’re showing and not telling.” Don’t talk about the work.

[00:49:09] Take them, you know, go into your mind’s eye. To your client, “Show me what it looks like Monday morning,” ’cause now we’re on a real fulfillment call. They’ll share their screen. “Where do you go first? Huh, and what do you do with that button right there?” Right. “Oh, you don’t use it. Okay, so that, that task thing, you don’t touch.

[00:49:23] Okay.” And then you go to planner, then you go to Apple Notes, then you go to… And they actually show the first, you know, 10 minutes of their day- Right … on the call. And you get a world of context about that, that, yes, helps you deliver that particular project. But you’re jotting notes like, “Hmm, looks like we might wanna screen for XYZ in the sales call.”

[00:49:40] And just making sure there’s always that feedback loop, um, I think is often skipped, in part because we try to make things too passive too early, and I, I… Especially if you have a human component, which I think I do. Right. Like, every business has a human component. You can’t go too hands-off, or you have to start paying a whole lot for market research- Right

[00:49:57] which feels like a waste of money.

[00:49:58] Nathan: Yeah, when you could be doing it hands-on customer development. Okay, so then as we’re scale- going back to your calendar and how you spent your time. Mm-hmm.

[00:50:06] Layla: Oh,

[00:50:06] Nathan: yeah. What, what did it look like? I mean, this is getting to some really great stuff. What did it look like when you- really went into the courses side of it.

[00:50:14] Layla: Yeah, so the courses side of it essentially is long, uninterrupted work blocks, which sounds amazing for, like, my brain. Like, yes. Yeah. Six hours of just staring at a screen, forgetting to eat. Amazing. Um, but here was the hard part of it, is I didn’t have that loop. I didn’t, I didn’t see what was working. I didn’t, I didn’t need to feel the hero complex, but, you know, course completion rates at 10%.

[00:50:40] Nathan: Right.

[00:50:40] Layla: The referrals we would get, we would get referrals, and, you know, people recommending friends. It wasn’t at the rate I was used to in services, which told me a lot about what would happen after someone bought a course. And my goal always was not to get the most revenue out of the business or to have the highest salary.

[00:50:55] I wanted to solve this fricking problem. Like, 10 years. My 10-year time clock is ticking. Like, I wanna get this going. I’m eight years in now. I got two years to finish this up. And I knew that if I kept with courses, our courses, I guess I didn’t say this, our course revenue continued to grow. Okay. Our conversion rates continued to increase.

[00:51:12] Our audience was growing, so I knew we would continue to grow with courses. It was just a matter of time. But I could make all the money I wanted to with courses, and I still would not solve the problem- Mm … because there was no flywheel, as you would say, back to product.

[00:51:25] Nathan: Okay.

[00:51:26] Layla: And so that was kind of the problem with it, and the calendar reflected that.

[00:51:31] It was deep focused work, reviewing intake forms every six months or three months or 12 months, do a giant refilm, sometimes live for a little bit of interaction. But it was like pulling teeth to find out what was working and what was not working for actual users of the product. We tried to do case study interviews.

[00:51:49] We, like, we had to spend so much work to do what is inherent in a service, and that’s when I kinda realized something should shift for what I wanted.

[00:51:56] Nathan: So that sounds like the ideal calendar to a lot of people. Yeah. Where you’re like, “Okay, time for money are, are-” Great calendar … pretty disconnected.

[00:52:03] Layla: Mm-hmm.

[00:52:03] Nathan: And all of that, but then you and the customer are disconnected. Uh- Yeah … the customer success rate-

[00:52:08] Layla: Mm-hmm …

[00:52:09] Nathan: is much lower.

[00:52:10] Layla: Yep.

[00:52:10] Nathan: Because a lot of people say, like, “Oh, I sold a half million dollars or a million dollars worth, worth of courses.”

[00:52:15] Layla: Yeah.

[00:52:15] Nathan: And cool, what do they do from there? And they’re like, “Well, we have-” Who cares?

[00:52:17] like these really great customers.” And you’re like, “All right. So you- you talked about 5 out of 1,000.” Right. “What happened with the other 995 customers?” You’re like-

[00:52:26] Layla: Bingo … ”

[00:52:26] Nathan: Well, some of them finished the course.”

[00:52:28] Layla: Yeah.

[00:52:29] Nathan: Is that right? ‘Cause the, the- You don’t

[00:52:30] Layla: know …

[00:52:31] Nathan: you often don’t have as much of an impact as you wish you did.

[00:52:36] Right? And you’re like, “Well, I did my part. I produced a great course. I sold it well. I got the right people in there, and I can’t hold their hand through it and create the outcome.” It’s like, okay, well, they didn’t get the outcome.

[00:52:46] Layla: Right.

[00:52:47] Nathan: And so-

[00:52:47] Layla: Or they did, and they’re not telling you.

[00:52:48] Nathan: Right.

[00:52:49] Layla: Also valid.

[00:52:49] Nathan: Yep, which does happen.

[00:52:51] And so there, you know, there’s things that you can do to collect information, get on calls, um-

[00:52:56] Layla: Testimonials. There’s so many great steps for that. You can have all the checkpoints in the world. Right. Still not the same.

[00:53:01] Nathan: And so, like, what was the spark where you were like, “Okay, I think I need to add the services component back into it”?

[00:53:06] Layla: I didn’t want to. I didn’t want to. I was so afraid of services for the reason so many are. I didn’t wanna go back to 2019. It felt like a step backwards. I think the reason I realized that it would work is because I had tried everything else, and it didn’t. So I tried, you know- As

[00:53:23] Nathan: measured by being stuck at 6 to $700,000 a year.

[00:53:25] Layla: Exactly. But yeah, tho- those stable years were not stable. It was like a duck, fish underwater trying a bunch of different things. Tried group programs. I, I crossed off things that weren’t aligned with what we were doing. I wasn’t gonna do a mastermind. Like, that stuff didn’t make sense. Um, and it just never got traction.

[00:53:40] Like, I felt it in my bones that if I offered, “Hey…” Oh, actually, no. You know what? There was a specific moment, actually, now that I think about it. The last offer I tried before this one, I believe it was… Oh yeah, this was it. Um, it was, I think, eight people at $8,000, I believe was the offer. Okay. And we’re gonna go through this together over about 90 days.

[00:54:00] And so, kinda, you can see the inklings here. Yeah. But no way was I gonna do one-on-one. I mean, like, come on. Right. Time for money. Eh. Um, and I got on those sales calls ’cause I, I put a quick email out in Kit and I was like, “Hey, anyone wanna do this?” Blah, blah, blah. Very basic details. Book a call. I think I did 20…

[00:54:17] No, it wasn’t even that many. It might’ve been 10 calls. And all but one asked, “Can I just pay 10X and just work with you directly one-on-one?” Or 10X, 5X. It was some ridiculous multiplier. How much would I have to pay? Would 40K make you just work with me just exclusively? 50K, can you just come out to my office and just work on site with us for a week?

[00:54:35] I think one of the lines I heard twice in those remaining calls was, “Can we just kidnap you and have you join our team?” And I’m like, “Hey, nice to meet you, by the way.” Yeah. “We’re strangers on the internet.” Um, and that’s when I kinda realized one-on-one is what my audience wants.

[00:54:50] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:54:50] Layla: And so- ‘

[00:54:51] Nathan: Cause it, it’s also a very intimate thing of, like-

[00:54:53] Layla: Oh, it’s so intimate.

[00:54:54] Yeah …

[00:54:54] Nathan: how my business operates, like what my goals are- So personal … who I hired, you know, all of these things. Mm-hmm. And it’s like, there’s a lot of things where, where being around other people is a perk ’cause you’re like, “Oh, I get to learn from these other entrepreneurs.”

[00:55:06] Layla: Yeah.

[00:55:06] Nathan: Not in this case. But if they’re in different industries and everybody’s gotta share all their…

[00:55:10] Yeah, you’re just like-

[00:55:11] Layla: Uh-uh … can

[00:55:11] Nathan: you just help me?

[00:55:12] Layla: Yeah. Like, it kind of feels like sometimes I’m on a, I’m filming episodes of Hoarders. Yeah. Except here’s the thing, like, I was on Hoarders, but now I’ve switched over to Marie Kondo stuff. That’s it. And so everyone on Marie Kondo is like, “Oh my God, I’m so embarrassed.”

[00:55:25] I’m like, “Trust me, I was on Hoarders before. This is nothing.” Um, and I think there’s some peace that comes with that in a one-on-one way that is hard to deny. Mm-hmm. And once I, like, got over my fears around it, which were my own stories I was bringing to it, I was like, “Oh, there is a way that I can give people what they actually want, God forbid, while also giving them what they need.”

[00:55:42] Nathan: That’s fascinating. Okay, and so then when you added in services, it’s not this done for you, we have a whole staff- No … that is gonna come in and all of it. Like an, it’s not an agency model.

[00:55:54] Layla: No. Mm-mm.

[00:55:55] Nathan: And so it’s this very tailored productized service that is layered on top of the course. And- Yeah, talk about how exactly that structure, have you iterated it a little bit?

[00:56:05] And then we’ll get into the calendar.

[00:56:07] Layla: Yeah, there’s been quite a bit of iteration. Um, but yeah, the model right now is I basically took the same journey that the course goes on A to Z, and I said, “Hey, you’re gonna work with a human on this. We’re gonna start off with an audit so we really get to know you, and then we’re gonna question between A to Z which letters do you actually need, and what letters that aren’t in there, let’s add some numbers in there, too.”

[00:56:26] So we essentially built on our end, we have the fixed course, and then we have these kind of like modular add-ons that are appropriate for certain people struggling with certain things. Like, we have a key metrics add-on. Because if someone’s like, “We don’t track any numbers,” but God, no one ever does the important thing.

[00:56:41] We’re like, “Hey, let’s just, here’s a little system for how we can do that.” Um, and then we have a human beading, being kind of build your own personal curriculum.

[00:56:48] Nathan: Right.

[00:56:49] Layla: So it’s kind of like a college class in some ways where you’re working with a mentor one on one, develop your curriculum, then we’ll check in with you as you’re doing most of the execution.

[00:56:57] Um, it was important to me in designing this that we didn’t have to build a full team. Although if I th- if I thought that was best for the customer, I probably would have. Yeah. I would’ve just stomached that and figured out the way to do it right. But our fundamental belief is that when it comes to systemizing a business, it’s best done from the bottom up and from in, the inside out.

[00:57:16] So the external consultant that comes in is like, “Ch- ch- ch- ch- ch- here, I fixed you. Enjoy.” Yeah.

[00:57:21] Nathan: Right? Lasts for three weeks.

[00:57:23] Layla: Yeah. And the problem was I was that person. Like, I’m like self-aware enough to be like, “I totally did that.” I did that. Yep. I am sorry, but you did get $20 an hour, so. Um, and so we knew we didn’t wanna do that.

[00:57:34] And so we were f- trying to think, how do we train one to two people from within a company to be the powerhouses of building and maintaining a system, and then we just worked backwards from there.

[00:57:43] Nathan: And so what does your calendar look like now?

[00:57:45] Layla: So I mean, it’s gonna look a lot different next week. Now sales is off my plate.

[00:57:49] Right. But my calendar as of now, doing founder-led sales, having a few clients- Mm-hmm … and also overseeing these coaches, ’cause we are only six months into this model from beta to now scaling it up, and then I’m kind of on a three-month journey to get out completely. Yeah. My calendar now is on Mondays I have team calls, uh, team calls with anybody that I have.

[00:58:10] I’ll have a client call usually- Every other Monday with one of my clients that I have. Tuesdays I will have nothing other than content creation. So a whole day for YouTube or writing, I’m writing my first book. Like, that’s a lot of work. Yep. Um, and then Wednesday I have sales calls in the morning. So I’ll usually have eight calls a week at this point that I’ll squeeze in there somehow.

[00:58:30] Um, so that’ll usually be my Wednesday mornings. Wednesday afternoon is usually a second client call, ’cause I have a few active clients right now at that tier. Thursday is more sales calls, and then actually getting work done. Turns out you still have to do that. Yep. Um, supporting the coaches who are supporting all of the rest of the clients, since they’re c- all a few months in, has been, um, a l- like an hour a week I would say.

[00:58:54] And then on Fridays I have, uh, usually creative work again. So I try not to book any calls. I might sneak a sales call in there if I need to in the morning, but otherwise it’s working on the book. Um, that’s taking, you know, six to eight hours a week.

[00:59:07] Nathan: Yeah, so even running that services model, you have a lot of control of your time.

[00:59:10] Now, I do wanna call out that … Oh, where were you gonna go?

[00:59:13] Layla: I was gonna say, I, I force myself to keep control of my time. Right. I don’t think I have control. I keep control of it. Right. ‘Cause I think by default I would not.

[00:59:20] Nathan: Yeah. What are some of the things that, that- You know, the boundaries of the rules that you have in place to keep control of your time.

[00:59:27] Layla: Sales calls can only get booked on two days a week, and they’re all back to back to back to back to back.

[00:59:32] Nathan: Are they 20 minutes, 30 minutes? What’s the-

[00:59:33] Layla: They’re 30 minutes right now. Okay. And I just back to back to back to back.

[00:59:37] Nathan: Just roll one, one to the next.

[00:59:39] Layla: Pretty much, yeah. It’s a good excuse to get off the call on time.

[00:59:42] Nathan: Right. Well, and then your AI note-taker can- … handle the, those things- Yeah … and then you can batch your follow-up at the end.

[00:59:47] Layla: Exactly. Exactly. So, and that’s a compromise, right? Salespeople are like, “Well, you shouldn’t do that. Should be right away. You should follow up right away.” I’m like, “I’m okay with leaving that on the table if it means I get all of Tuesday and most of Friday-

[00:59:59] Nathan: Right

[00:59:59] Layla: to work, to do the real work.” ‘

[01:00:01] Nathan: Cause what you’re talking about, some of the, you know, doing almost 100 calls last month, right? Yeah, that,

[01:00:04] Layla: that was a crazy month. Yeah.

[01:00:06] Nathan: So that was, you know, that’s over 20 a week.

[01:00:08] Layla: Yes.

[01:00:09] Nathan: And so you’re, you’re fitting in really a lot of calls.

[01:00:11] Layla: That, I will say, during that period, that did not get the s- as spacious of a calendar.

[01:00:16] It was very much just I had three hours for YouTube. I somehow had time for book in there. It was, like, three hours for book. But it, those were long days. Yeah. I, I would not… That was not intentional to get through that journey, but I learned a lot from it, and-

[01:00:30] Nathan: That is a sprint for a short season.

[01:00:32] Layla: Yeah. It was a seasonal thing.

[01:00:34] We… Funny story: we ha- we were intending to hire a sales position before that. The day before they were supposed to start after a two-week delay, they’re like, “Actually, I decided sales isn’t for me.” Yes. And so we had our, our, our webinar go live a day or two later from that, and I was like, “All right. Well, 100 calls coming my way.”

[01:00:50] Nathan: We had someone years ago, uh, his name is Neil. I’m gonna just call him out on the episode. And, uh- Hi,

[01:00:57] Layla: Neil. …

[01:00:57] Nathan: who joined the company on a Monday.

[01:01:00] Layla: Oh, no.

[01:01:00] Nathan: Quit on Friday- Oh … and was just like, “Actually, I just wanna be in an entirely different industry.”

[01:01:05] Layla: Yep.

[01:01:05] Nathan: And you’re like, “What?” And so now we call it pulling a Neil.

[01:01:08] Layla: Okay. Pulling a Neil. That’s… Yeah, so I had, I had someone pull a Neil. And you know what? Good for you. Like, I’d rather you tell me now- Right … it’s

[01:01:13] Nathan: better. Clarity now is better than later.

[01:01:15] Layla: Way better, but-

[01:01:15] Nathan: Like, I don’t wanna spend three months training, like, onboarding and everything and be like, “Actually, I’m out.”

[01:01:19] Yeah. Right? But it’s just like, where everyone’s just like, “What?”

[01:01:22] Layla: Yeah.

[01:01:22] Nathan: Where did, where did

[01:01:23] Layla: that happen?

[01:01:24] Nathan: Okay, so if someone were to make this jump, right? They’re, they’re selling courses probably in a B2B-type setting or they’re, or a business environment or that sort of thing, and they’re like- Huh, maybe I should layer on a services element to it

[01:01:38] Layla: Yeah

[01:01:39] Nathan: What are some of the mistakes that you think they might be likely to make?

[01:01:43] Layla: Over-complicating.

[01:01:45] Nathan: Okay

[01:01:46] Layla: I think that’s the number one thing. We kind of over-correct, like I did. You know, when I went from services to product, I went so far, into, like, super product, memberships. Right It’s the hardest product to really do well. Um, and so service is the same way. You know, we get into services, we’re like, “Oh, my God, done-for-you-agency.

[01:02:03] Hire 14 people. We’ll do everything for you. You don’t have to do a thing.” I think that’s the first one. Um, I think the second mistake is making it about yourself first. Uh, yes, that’s part of it, but ultimately I think the reason I finally got the model that worked after hard freaking times trying to figure it out, it was not easy, um, and it was not linear, was ’cause I, like, actually confessed to really listening.

[01:02:26] I got on calls with my audience, which I know Tim, you know, our mutual friend, great video I’m sure we can link up top. Um-

[01:02:33] Nathan: Yeah, his epis- he’s g- ha- I think had three episodes on my show, so…

[01:02:36] Layla: Okay

[01:02:36] Nathan: Lots of great appearances

[01:02:37] Layla: Yeah. Talking with your customer and building what they actually need and what will serve the actual result, rather than, “Hmm, I’m afraid of hiring a team, so I guess I’m just gonna have VIP days.”

[01:02:48] Like, that’s lazy, self-serving. It’s problematic for you. It’s problematic for your business. You’re not building yourself a job. You’re trying to build a machine, and your, your spot in it is temporary. And so don’t be selfish. Get some more money.

[01:03:02] Nathan: Yeah.

[01:03:04] Layla: It’s, it’s a win-win.

[01:03:05] Nathan: Those are some good mistakes. Any others?

[01:03:07] Layla: Undercharging.

[01:03:08] Nathan: Oh, yeah, ’cause if it involves some of your time, you have to be charging enough. Otherwise- Yeah … you’re going to, you know, really cap your revenue.

[01:03:16] Layla: Oh, my gosh, yeah. Well, a lot of people don’t track their time at all, and they’re like, “Ugh, tracking time. What am I, a lawyer? Ugh.” I’m not saying six-minute increments, although, like, why not?

[01:03:26] Um- I think tracking your time is phenomenally helpful if you do services. I would almost say it’s like it’s a requirement in some ways because a lot of people don’t realize what their costs actually are. They’re like, “Well, I host a call for one hour. I charge 500 bucks for it. I’m doing great.” And then you’re like, “Oh, wait, but I actually prep for an hour beforehand.”

[01:03:46] Right. “I send a recap after, and three months later I send them a gift bag, and that cost me $15.” And all of a sudden you’re like, “Oh, I’m actually getting $70 an hour, and I also still have to acquire this customer, which costs me 20% in some way, which is another 60 bucks off.” You know what I mean? And we’re not considering that in there because we’re used to courses where our costs are nothing other than marketing.

[01:04:05] Nathan: So I’m gonna dive in on lead generation, because that’s something that you seem to have down pretty well. If you’re doing 100 sales calls in a month or have the ability to do that-

[01:04:12] Layla: Yeah …

[01:04:13] Nathan: then clearly something between YouTube and the email list and the calls is going well. What’s making the biggest impact on lead generation?

[01:04:19] Layla: Well, I will say, you know, full disclaimer, 100 sales calls was a spike- Yeah … around having a webinar and hosting it live. Theoretically, we could replicate that if I was willing to do more live webinars, but again, I’m w- willing to leave money on the table in so many ways. Um, what’s making the biggest impact on lead generation?

[01:04:36] Ignoring having one-on-one services. That’s the number one indicator, is going from buy our course or bust to you can work with us one-on-one means we have a giant backlog of people who had no access, and now the door is cracked open. That’s huge. I mean, that’s, that’s, that’s a lot of value. And because of that, we’re able…

[01:04:57] Most of our calls come from our Kit automations. And, you know, Kit, whatever tool you’re using, whatever, it, it’s just automated sequences that we have one that’s a boomerang that we add everyone into. Every 90 days, they get an invitation to book a call endlessly.

[01:05:13] Nathan: Mm.

[01:05:13] Layla: They never leave. They can unsubscribe if they want to, but they will forever be invited to book a call, warning, uh, until you either book a call or buy something that makes you disqualified for the call.

[01:05:24] The other thing I would say is YouTube, right? Like, I’ve picked one platform. I would like to say I’m getting good at it. I’m not there yet. For reference, how

[01:05:33] Nathan: many subscribers do you have on YouTube? I

[01:05:34] Layla: think it’s, like, 150,000. Okay. On B2B business processing. Oh, yeah. So, you know, the numbers aren’t quite comparable to the, the sexier topics perhaps.

[01:05:44] Nathan: Well, it’s one of those things that people often reali- you know, if you’re in food and recipes and it’s like, “Oh, I got a million followers on Instagram,” like, that is a, a hard thing to do.

[01:05:52] Layla: Yeah.

[01:05:53] Nathan: But it’s way harder to do it in, like, a, a niche. Business processes or marketing or, or that sort of- Let’s

[01:05:58] Layla: talk about SOPs.

[01:05:59] Yeah.

[01:06:00] Nathan: Yeah, exactly.

[01:06:01] Layla: Yeah.

[01:06:01] Nathan: It’s a different, a different thing. And so what’s made the biggest difference in growing on YouTube and getting to that 150,000

[01:06:09] Layla: subscribers? So, what got me here got me there- … or will get me there. It’s been the same thing the whole time- Mm-hmm … of customer or lead questions generating the next video.

[01:06:20] So I, you know, my YouTube strategy’s very simple. I don’t really know what I’m doing. I just take a question or a prompt. I have now a YouTube agency that I’ve, like, invested in. Like, “Hey, help me with the packaging ’cause I know- Yeah … I suck at that. I’m gonna be, like, very literal and you need to make it sexy.”

[01:06:36] Um, so they make it sexy, and then I film the sandwich. They got the bread, I fill it in. Yep. Um, and the way I film, how I go about that is I usually take a few bullet points of, like, here are the things I wanna make sure you know by the end, and then I just talk. And that’s how I make- Yeah … a YouTube video.

[01:06:53] Nathan: And then are you going to a lead magnet, a call to action in some way? Ah.

[01:06:57] Layla: That part. That does seem important. So yeah, I have some rules around this that I’ve kinda built over the years, ’cause I like numbers. So in the first 20 seconds, I need to make sure that I mention kinda the promise of the video, and I have a- two hooks, the opening hook and then the hook to the first intro.

[01:07:12] In the first intro section, around 30% into the video, I wanna have a first call to action of some kind. So this is like, you know, “Tip number one is make sure you eat sushi every day. By the way, if you want my sushi recipe pack, it’s in the description below, but let’s move on.” So I’ll do something like that.

[01:07:26] I don’t do anything with sushi. Right. It’s just on the mind now. But that would be an example in the very beginning of the video, and then I will also do that again at the end. What I find myself doing more often these days is actually having multiple call to actions. So, um, the way I do this is usually naturally.

[01:07:41] We’ve done 700 videos, um, 450 or so of long-form YouTube, and I remember pretty much every one. Mm-hmm. I don’t remember their names, ’cause now they’re all packaged to be sexy, but I’ll just say, like, “Yep, and we have a video on, uh, the best business model for your personality type up here.” Um, and I will just link up two hands, ’cause I never remember which side the cameras flip to, and that’s how I’ll do it.

[01:08:05] So I’ll link to other videos and I’ll link to at least two call to action, but oftentimes three or four in a 15-minute video. Uh, it’s the first link in the description. So it shows up before the preview, the read more. First pinned comment. None of this I do, by the way. Yeah. It’s just our process. Um, we send it out to our newsletter pretty m- immediately upon publishing with, again, that same feature.

[01:08:26] And all of our subscribers pretty much are from YouTube.

[01:08:30] Nathan: What I love about it is you’ve implemented a very sophisticated business that’s also very simple.

[01:08:37] Layla: It’s a…

[01:08:37] Nathan: Yeah. And so, you know, other people would be like, “Why aren’t you on TikTok? Why aren’t you on,” you know, wherever else, doing all these other things.

[01:08:43] And you’re like, “‘Cause YouTube and email work really well, and then I book calls, and you work, can work with me in these two ways, and that’s

[01:08:50] Layla: it.” And ’cause I did YouTube and Facebook and TikTok- Right … and I realized, I was like, “Oh, this is stupid. It doesn’t work.” I didn’t actually know. I just did it wrong and then realized I was wrong.

[01:08:59] Nathan: Thank you so much for sharing this entire story. I think it’s gonna be so inspirational for people who, you know, are stuck at the ceiling in some way and said- Sucks … “Oh, man, I’ve made this really complicated business that’s not getting me the life or the revenue that I want.” And you’ve laid out a path where you’re like, “Look, you can actually go from products, the pinnacle of all your time, and then say, let’s actually move back one ladder-

[01:09:21] Layla: Yeah

[01:09:21] Nathan: and let’s go to productized services and have the ideal life and business and more customer outcomes and all of that.”

[01:09:27] Layla: Absolutely. Well, thank you so much for having me. I’m glad to share this. I felt so lonely when I was at that block. It felt like, “Am I an idiot? Am I the only one stuck here?” And finding Tim and others who was like, “Oh, no, this is a real thing,” it was really, really helpful, so I hope it helps somebody else.

[01:09:41] Nathan: I love that. Um, where should people go to check out your YouTube channel, if they wanna work with you, any of those things?

[01:09:46] Layla: Yeah, go find me on Instagram… Just kidding. You’re not on Instagram. I’m not on anything. I’m not on anything. Find me on YouTube under my name, Layla Pomponi, or go to processdriven.co.

[01:09:55] That’s where we have all of our freebies, and yeah, people can find out how to work with us and book a call before I change my prices again.

[01:10:01] Nathan: Yes, exactly. Hey, that’s some good urgency.

[01:10:03] Layla: Yeah, there we go. There we go.

[01:10:04] Nathan: Perfect. Thanks so much for coming on.

[01:10:06] Layla: Absolutely.

[01:10:06] Nathan: If you enjoyed this episode, go to YouTube and search The Nathan Barry Show, then hit subscribe and make sure to like the video and drop a comment.

[01:10:14] I’d love to hear what some of your favorite parts of the video were, and also just who else you think we should have on the show. Thank you so much for

[01:10:21] listening.

[00:00:00] David: A lot of people wanna be heard more than they have something to say.

[00:00:03] Nathan: Today’s episode is with David Perell, the host of the How I Write podcast, and he’s one of the most prolific creators I know.

[00:00:10] David: I published something every day on the internet for five years.

[00:00:13] Nathan: I bring him on to dive into does writing still matter?

[00:00:16] What parts should you focus on? And how do you stand out in such a crowded world?

[00:00:20] David: When you find something that works, just go really hard on doubling down on it.

[00:00:26] Nathan: David Perell has taught thousands of people how to write.

[00:00:30] David: I want stories, I want examples, and I want takes. When people can’t write, there’s three reasons.

[00:00:35] The first reason is they don’t have any good ideas. The second is you do have good ideas, but you don’t have the courage to say those ideas. Then there’s the third category.

[00:00:43] Nathan: One of the most interesting things he talks about in this interview is tying timeless ideas to timely moments.

[00:00:50] David: Pick up the New York Post, USA Today, The Journal, The Times, and just do a quick scan of what are the big news stories.

[00:00:57] That’d be the first thing. And then the second thing that I would do is- This is one of my favorite episodes I’ve ever had on the show.

[00:01:03] Nathan: I hope you enjoy it too

[00:01:08] David, welcome to the show.

[00:01:10] David: It’s great to be here. It’s also good to see you. I feel like I haven’t seen you in, like, four or five years.

[00:01:15] Nathan: So something that you’re obsessed with is writing- Mm-hmm … and the craft of writing. Mm-hmm. And I feel like when I came into the space, I was just like, “Oh, writing is just a means to communicate ideas and, and all that.”

[00:01:25] And then I started spending more time with people like Mark Manson, like you, and others, and I was like, “Oh, you’re, you all are obsessed with the craft of writing and the exact…” Not like, does this paragraph communicate my meaning? Mm-hmm. Does that meaning provide value to the reader? But like, no, did I say this in the best possible way?

[00:01:42] Mm-hmm. Does it inspire? Does it make me feel something, and all that? Like, how do you think about the craft of writing and your obsession around it?

[00:01:49] David: Yeah. What I am absolutely obsessed with is taking an idea that I think has a lot of potential. I’m almost like an investor in ideas. Okay, yeah. Do you know what I mean?

[00:01:59] Like, I’m like a seed stage investor in ideas, and I’ll find an idea that I think is really interesting, either one that I had or one that somebody else had. And I love to take an idea that’s a little bit messy, but that’s really insightful, can reach a lot of people, and then basically shaping that idea in all sorts- Mm

[00:02:17] of ways so that it can pierce through the culture. Uh, or teach people and be kind of clear and concrete and easy to replicate. And in that way, I’m almost like a comedian. I, I’m, I’m, I’m always kind of working on bits. Do you know what I mean? Right. Like, I’ll see something. I’m like, “Okay, what’s the bit here?

[00:02:34] What’s the, what’s the thing?” And we can talk about exactly how I do that, but I’m just… I cannot stop doing that.

[00:02:43] Nathan: I love it.

[00:02:44] David: Cannot stop doing that.

[00:02:45] Nathan: So this idea of a bit.

[00:02:46] David: Yep.

[00:02:46] Nathan: Right? Like, I went to the Comedy Cellar two nights ago- Oh, cool … and got to see, like, some workshop things, like, s- that were, you know, really polished.

[00:02:53] And like, you nailed that. And others where you’re like, “Okay, that might have been, like, the second- Mm-hmm … or third time you ever told that story on stage,” and it clearly has something to it, but it didn’t work- Mm-hmm … in that form. W- is there an example of s- of an idea, something in your writing that you, that started as- that raw, like we’re just testing it in front of the 100-person comedy c- you know, comedy cellar, and then turned into, like, the polished bit?

[00:03:18] David: Yeah. I’ll tell you the one that I’m working on right now is… So I’m working on a film. Mm-hmm. Uh, it’s called Modern World. It’s a series. So think of-

[00:03:26] Nathan: It’s… I- I’ve watched the first… Is it a pilot? Yeah.

[00:03:29] David: Is it a pilot? A

[00:03:30] Nathan: short

[00:03:30] David: film.

[00:03:30] Nathan: I’ve watched the, the pilot’s fantastic.

[00:03:31] David: Thank you.

[00:03:32] Nathan: Five and a half million views, I believe.

[00:03:33] David: Five and a half million views. So proud of it. And so we said, “Okay, we’ll do that. We’ll try to make a TV series kind of like Planet Earth.” Mm-hmm. Like cinematic, educational, uh, really beautifully done, like Planet Earth, do a lot of series. So we’re working on the first series now. And one of the things you find, like when you go to an art museum, right, and you read the caption, is they just say a lot of gobbledygook without actually saying anything at all, and they use all this jargon.

[00:04:00] Yeah. Do you know what I mean? And so as we’re working on our scripts, the two people I’m working with, they flew out, we went through 160 pages of scripts, and we basically put every single piece of jargon on trial for its life. Mm. We basically took it to court and we said- … “Did you commit the crime or did you not?”

[00:04:18] And we were super, super hardcore about just saying anything that sounds like something you would read on one of the gobbledygook walls at the Met or the MoMA, whatever, we’re just gonna take that out. And if you can just talk about things in plain, simple, and clear language- Mm-hmm … it’s really hard to do because- Yeah

[00:04:39] you realize that you’re leaning on the laurels of a lot of jargon, a lot of other people’s ideas. But if you do that, the world becomes a lot more accessible to people, and it’s just easier to understand what-

[00:04:50] Nathan: Mm-hmm

[00:04:51] David: what it is that you’re saying. You know what I mean?

[00:04:53] Nathan: Yeah. So you’ve taught thousands of people how to write-

[00:04:57] David: Yep

[00:04:58] Nathan: through Rite of Passage. So what are the things that matter the most if you’re talking to a creator who’s like, “Okay, I wanna start to obsess over the craft of writing”?

[00:05:06] David: Yeah, so I would say that when people can’t write, there’s three reasons. Okay. Okay? So the first reason is they don’t have any good ideas- Mm

[00:05:16] which is super common. A lot of people, they wanna be heard more than they have something to say.

[00:05:21] Nathan: Yes. Look at me. Super common. Why? Oh, I don’t

[00:05:26] David: know. Super common.

[00:05:26] Nathan: I don’t know why, but still look at me.

[00:05:28] David: I mean, I was there too. Like, when I- Yeah … kinda came out of the gates, I was like, “I want an audience.” Mm-hmm.

[00:05:33] “I’m audience-building,” but I actually didn’t have anything that needed to be said. Mm-hmm. And in retrospect, honestly, I think that’s fine. Like, there’s not a big deal- Right … but for a lot of people, when they’re like, “Why aren’t people reading my stuff?” It’s like- Mm … you don’t have any good ideas. You know what I mean?

[00:05:50] And I was there. So that’s the first, you don’t have any good ideas. The second is you do have good ideas, but you don’t have the courage to say those ideas, okay? So that can be a political thing. It can be something that’s a little bit unpopular to say, something that’s a little bit weird, you know, something that’s a little bit weird.

[00:06:07] Like I remember when Sean Perry came on my writing podcast, How I Write, he goes, “I’m trying to get really good at storytelling. Like storytelling- Mm … and communication, that’s like the big skill I’m working on.” But it’s like kinda weird to say that you’re working on storytelling- Right … something like that.

[00:06:20] Fairly benign, but also, yeah, it’s like a little bit cringe to say that you’re working on that. But all power to him, that’s like the thing he’s working on, right? So then there’s people who they don’t have any good ideas- Or they have good ideas, but they don’t have the courage to say them. And then there’s the third category, which is people who don’t know how to write.

[00:06:38] Mm-hmm. That is pretty common, but most of the people who are listening to this, they’re probably actually decent on the they-know-how-to-write category- Yeah … but they struggle with the first two. But then the other thing even more is with Claude, with Grok, you know, name your AI… Well, not Gemini. It’s not gonna be good at writing.

[00:06:57] That’s just not Google’s DNA. But name your AI. It’s basically gonna make the communication part a commodity, so then the really hard part is how do you find the good ideas, and how do you develop the courage to say the good ideas that you have?

[00:07:11] Nathan: For you, what was… what happened between the early stages where you’re like, “I want attention and an audience- Mm

[00:07:18] but I don’t have something to say or I don’t have the life experience to draw from,” to now, like, I feel like you have a lot to say, and I follow h- you and, you know, thousands of other people do for your ideas and your take on the world.

[00:07:30] David: You know what it is, is writing forces you to be more observant.

[00:07:34] Nathan: Okay.

[00:07:34] David: It just forces you to be more observant. Like, I’m just always looking at things and I think a lot of that is because of years and years of basically saying, “I need things to write about, therefore- Mm … I need to observe the world more carefully.” And that could be the way that flowers are displayed on the street.

[00:07:54] It can be the way that an elevator in one skyscraper is different from the elevator in the other skyscraper. It can be an incongruence between the way that somebody dresses and the way that they speak. Like, whatever it is. And honestly, I wish that I did this more, but the best practice that I’ve found…

[00:08:12] And it’s actually, we kind of have some notes coming into- Yeah … this podcast. And I said, “You know what, Nathan, I’m gonna send you some notes. What I’ll do is I’ll just go sit down at a restaurant and I’ll eat alone.” I love eating alone. Mm. I do it all the time. Um, and what I’ll do is I’ll have a piece of paper- and a pen.

[00:08:31] And basically, in the duration of that meal, I’ll just try to fill out an eight and a half by 11 piece of paper, and there’s no phone, and it’s just there, and I just squib- scribble down notes, notes, notes- Mm … notes, notes. And what I try to do is basically think of mining my own mind, okay? So, I think it’s John Mayer or Ed Sheeran, one of them is on the Zane Lowe Show, and talks about how a lot of times creativity is like a spigot of water.

[00:08:59] And what you do is you turn on the faucet, and at first, it’s kind of dirty. You know what I mean? Mm-hmm. But later on, the water does get clean, but you have to let the dirty water out first. Right. And then later on, the clean water comes out. And if I can just fill out an eight and a half by 11 piece of paper at a restaurant, what I realize is all the thoughts that were basically subterranean in my brain, they’re not conscious thoughts that I had today, but they were thoughts that I had today, and I just hadn’t really brought them up to the surface.

[00:09:34] Nathan: Mm. I think there’s so many things in everything we consume, and then what we feel and think and all of that, that all goes by so quickly.

[00:09:41] David: Mm-hmm.

[00:09:42] Nathan: Like, something that I used to not be able to do at all, um, and now I’m much better at, is noticing when I feel something-

[00:09:50] David: Mm …

[00:09:51] Nathan: and then being able to, like, rewind my inputs and thoughts, ’cause I’m like, “What was that?

[00:09:55] Was that the… Uh, okay, I’m feeling frustrated-

[00:09:58] David: Mm-hmm …

[00:09:59] Nathan: or jealous or whatever.” And you notice that. Like, you, like, you know, there’s, like, a feeling in your chest or whatever and, like, where is that from? Is that… And you realize, like, oh, I’ve just consumed so many random things, whether it’s an Instagram feed or X or conversations or Slack or anything like that.

[00:10:12] Being able to rewind it and be like- Oh, it’s this. This is what I… You know, it was three minutes ago, that was the thing that I reacted to, and it’s still sitting in my subconscious. Mm-hmm. And it’s a similar thing to be able to then say, “Oh, let me draw that out and see what that is.” So that’s it from a mental health perspective, but it applies the exact same way in creativity, to pull out these ideas, to sit with them, and make the, like, m- make the invisible visible.

[00:10:40] David: Mm-hmm. And you were talking about, your, your, your earlier question is like, how exactly did I do it? Mm. I mean, the prescription here is if you sit down and you, every day, force yourself to write something, and it’s not enough to just write it for yourself. Like, I actually don’t think that journaling takes you all the way there.

[00:11:00] The real discipline is putting it out in public. I basically published something every day on the internet for five years. Mm-hmm. And that was two newsletters every single week on ConvertKit. I had Monday Musings, I had Friday Finds. I was tweeting a bunch. And if you do that week after week, month after month, year after year, you just develop your own opinions on the world, and what happens is you find yourself making observations in passing and almost noticing your own awareness of things.

[00:11:33] Right. Like, when w- when, when I was walking down, here’s a good example. And like, if I was funnier, this would’ve been such a good comedy bit, is like New York and parks. So we’re walking by this place called Greeley Square. It’s across the street- Mm … from the Macy’s, and there’s this, this, this, this park And it’s not a park.

[00:11:52] Like, it’s on 6th, it’s 34th, but, like, it’s also a park. You, you know, for New Yorkers, we’re like, “This is a park.” And so there’s these people, and you look at them, they’re like, “Oh, yes, I’m in the park.” There’s, like, these nice flowers around. They have this chair. And they’re like, you know, I’m just sort of imagining them thinking, “It’s so nice to be in the park.”

[00:12:11] And, like, 50 feet away from them is a jackhammer, like- Right … shhh. And I was like, that is the most New York thing. You know what I mean? Like, these people are delighted, delighted to be in this park, and so was I. I was like, you know, I gotta walk through the park. Lo and behold, there’s a jackhammer 50 feet away.

[00:12:30] And it’s all this sort of stuff. Like, I don’t know if that’s one that I would use. Mm-hmm. But, like, even here sitting talking to you, I’m like, oh, I, I had all these observations that I didn’t realize that I was having, and it’s in the act of conversation and in writing that you become aware of your own awareness- Mm

[00:12:46] of the world.

[00:12:47] Nathan: I’m thinking about stories like that, ’cause you could use that in a whole bunch of different ways. Yeah. It could be an introduction to your newsletter. It could be whatever else. You know, it’s about the idea of contrast. It’s about the idea of, um, like, what you’re acclimated to. Mm-hmm. You know?

[00:13:01] In the chaos of, of New York, maybe even the tiny little not real- really a park with the jackhammer is still- … more peaceful- Right … than one block over. Uh, one of my favorite spots is right here on 27th. There’s just one of the pass-through, like, in the, in the street. I know

[00:13:15] David: exactly what you mean. Yeah.

[00:13:16] Nathan: And it’s just this green area.

[00:13:17] It just passes through the middle of the block, and I’m like-

[00:13:20] David: My first internship in New York, my first college internship, I worked on 30th and 6th, so I’d always go there. Mm-hmm. There used to be, there used to be this amazing sandwich shop- Mm … where you’d get a grilled cheese you dip in tomato soup, and I’d always eat it there.

[00:13:32] Nathan: Yeah, and it’s one of those things where the- It’s, there’s nothing special about that spot if it was somewhere else. If it was in Boise or if it was in, you know, wherever else. Like, we were talking to Austin and we’re like, “Oh, it’s this amazing, like, bit of nature in Austin.” Be like, “You mean it’s like trails by the river?”

[00:13:48] And you’re like- Right … “No, no. It’s-” No. There’s

[00:13:50] David: like 100 square feet.

[00:13:52] Nathan: But-

[00:13:53] David: But we relish

[00:13:54] Nathan: it. But in New York, it has the contrast, and so you could tell that story in so many ways. What I’m curious about is how you capture and curate these, because there’s… Like, it’s sitting in a notebook like this or, or that sort of thing.

[00:14:06] Yeah. Like, how to bring it out again later. Like, Ryan Holiday has his note cards where he has- Mm-hmm … you know, a, a big clear plastic container and filled with note cards that turns into a book. Is it something that you do?

[00:14:19] David: Not to the degree that Ryan does it. Most people don’t do that. That note card system is absolutely awesome.

[00:14:23] What I did do, which was great, was Tiago Forte was my business partner- Yeah … for many years, and his Building a Second Brain course changed my life. Mm-hmm. I remember I took it August 2017. I was in my apartment in Brooklyn, and I was living… The landlord was this Yemenese couple, and they would always yell at each other.

[00:14:43] And I was like, “Why are you guys always fighting?” And they’re like… You know, I go knock on the door. Like, “Is everything okay?” They’re like, “Oh, we love each other.” That’s just sort of how they talked. Uh, and I remember j- sort of watching his Building a Second Brain lectures with them fighting in the background.

[00:14:56] But that was big for me from probably 2018 to 2023, sort of capturing ideas and all that. Now, I basically do one of two things. I’ll put stuff in Otter- Mm-hmm … and then there’s sort of like a messy filter search from there, and then I’ll just use, like, ChatGPT or Claude, and I basically just do a voice note, and then I get it to do an outline at the top and then turn it to prose at the bottom.

[00:15:23] Not super fancy, but I love doing that. And that is a piece of advice that I have, is if you’re struggling to write and just get ideas out, just yap. Mm-hmm. Just yap into your phone. Go for a walk. It’s a lot easier- Yeah … when you’re walking and moving your body. And one thing that works well as well is, um, something called 60, 20, 10.

[00:15:42] So say that you have an idea Try to explain it in 60 seconds. Mm-hmm. So then you just get the full idea out, and then now do it again. Do it in 20 seconds, and then do it again, and do it in 10 seconds. And the mind is very, very good- Mm … at compressing information. But don’t try to skip to the 10. Right. Try to go to the 60, and then just try to work your way down like a staircase.

[00:16:04] Nathan: Yeah, the, the guys at Ultraspeaking, I’ve seen them teach this, uh, and they call it the accordion method.

[00:16:09] David: Mm.

[00:16:09] Nathan: Where you start long, 60, 90 seconds, something like that, and it’s just like, just explain the idea.

[00:16:15] David: Right. ‘

[00:16:16] Nathan: Cause there’s so many things that I have in my head that I’m like, “I could write about that,” but, like, I haven’t, and it’s bouncing around, or, like, a reaction to a quote or whatever, and so it’s like, explain it in the long version, get shorter.

[00:16:25] David: Yep.

[00:16:26] Nathan: And then what they do is they come back out to longer again.

[00:16:29] David: Yep.

[00:16:30] Nathan: And so, you know, maybe you get down to the ten-second version. You’re like, “How could you explain this in 10 seconds?” They’re like, “Well, try.” You know, and you have a very, you know, the high economy on your words. And then when you go back to 30 seconds or something a little longer, then you’re like, “Oh, damn.

[00:16:43] That was actually pretty good.” Yes. Exactly. How do you think about the market impact of writing and what that means, like the market reaction to writing?

[00:16:53] David: Hmm.

[00:16:54] Nathan: And h- how, how it affects the quality, ’cause you’re saying don’t, don’t just journal. Like, you have to actually bring these ideas into the world.

[00:17:02] David: When you say the market impact, do you mean, like, the book publishing industry?

[00:17:06] Nathan: I think

[00:17:06] David: the- The money that you can make from writing?

[00:17:08] Nathan: Let’s start with the reaction from the readers, and then we’ll go into what actually sells, whether you’re, whether you’re being paid through attention or cash.

[00:17:16] David: Yep. I am so pro market feedback. Mm-hmm. And I basically think the audience is always right.

[00:17:23] Nathan: Okay.

[00:17:23] David: I basically think- David’s hot takes … the audience is always right. Like, I think if we’re writing, people wanna read what we’re saying, and I think most of the time- Things that go viral just are better. Mm. I just do believe that. Now, there are obvious exceptions. Okay? There are obvious exceptions. And part of the reason I’m saying this pretty strongly is geared towards more beginner writers, because they love, they love the excuse of, “Oh, I wrote something great, but you know what?

[00:17:58] People just weren’t that interested in it.”

[00:18:00] Nathan: The algorithm suppressed my

[00:18:02] David: ideas. It’s… Oh, my goodness. Don’t get me started on that. That is so fake. That is not true. Um, no.

[00:18:08] Nathan: Well, like, uh, I, I don’t know about X right now, but I feel like Instagram and TikTok right now, especially Instagram, are, like, the purest meritocracy on can you hook and hold attention?

[00:18:18] David: Yes.

[00:18:19] Nathan: And so in America, we’re like, “We want everyone to have an equal shot no matter how,” you know, like, whether you’re rich or you’re, you know, pulling yourself up. But, like, all of that, like, you should have access to it. And Instagram’s like, “Okay. The best ideas, the best packaging, the best hooks. Like, if you can hook and hold attention, you win, and we will give you- Yep

[00:18:38] it doesn’t matter if you have 2,000 followers, we will happily give you two million views for the best ideas.”

[00:18:42] David: Yep.

[00:18:43] Nathan: And it’s so hard.

[00:18:44] David: So i- i- i- it’s, it’s so hard. And so let me say a few things. One, the best video I’ve ever made was How Did the World Get So Ugly? Mm-hmm. It was the pilot for the Modern World.

[00:18:57] It is the most popular video I’ve ever had on YouTube, and I think the YouTube algorithm is fiercely efficient in that one. Mm-hmm. Okay, so let’s put that over here. I also think that the best things I’ve ever written have been the ones with the most staying power. Market is super efficient over there.

[00:19:13] Now, there are some really important caveats here, ’cause I don’t just wanna come across as some sort of, like, hard line person on this because it is, has, does have some subtlety. If I were to write today about some insider information that I have on where Taylor Swift is gonna get married and we’re still not quite sure, or a take on, for example, the New York Knicks, everyone’s talking about that.

[00:19:36] Yeah. You could basically think of it as currents in a river. Mm-hmm. Okay? So, um, San Francisco Bay, uh, where I grew up, there’s different parts of the San Francisco Bay where the current is stronger. Oh, yeah. Right? I learned how to sail-

[00:19:50] Nathan: The internet works the same way … in

[00:19:50] David: San Francisco Bay. It’s a- Did you really?

[00:19:51] Nathan: Yeah. It’s quite a challenging place because of all of these

[00:19:53] David: currents. Because of that. Exactly. Yeah. So the internet also has currents, okay? So sometimes it is better to do a 6 out of 10 job. When I say better, you’ll get more views doing a 6 out of 10 job on a 10 out of 10 current than doing a 10 out of 10 job on, like, a 3 out of 10 current.

[00:20:10] Right. Okay? So what I will say is that there are certain currents that you can pick that just have less velocity to them. Mm-hmm. And insofar as that’s the case, then I do have sympathy for people who are saying, “You know what? The algorithm’s just not rewarding me,” and stuff like that. But- By and large, better stuff does do better.

[00:20:31] But it is true, like one thing that is a shame about whether you wanna call it the internet, whether you wanna call it the human condition, is that a lot of the fastest currents are nonsense and the slop of the day. But then also, I will say, there are certain things that you can be really interested in within the question that you can ask is, how do I frame this with a faster current?

[00:20:52] So I’ll give you an example. I’m really interested… Actually, I’ll give you a super specific example. So Okay, so if I said to you interior design has gotten boring. Yeah. Okay? Like, interior design has gotten boring. Um, like, I don’t think that a lot of what we build now is super interesting. Mm. Like, I find this to be a little bit bland.

[00:21:14] Yes. Okay? I find this to be a little bit bland. Agreed. Now, I would call that, like, a 4 out of 10 current idea. Mm. Okay? So how would we take this idea and turn it into, like, a 7 out of 10 current? One thing you could do is pop culture, okay? So let’s flip this around. This is the Home Alone house.

[00:21:32] Nathan: Right.

[00:21:32] David: Okay?

[00:21:33] Everyone knows this house. Yep. The Home Alone house. You know, I love this movie, right? It’s a fun house, right? You know how they remodeled it? They remodeled it to this, okay? Yeah. It’s the same house. Right. So what I did was I just moved this into a higher current.

[00:21:52] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:21:52] David: Takes the same idea, and then it can spread farther.

[00:21:56] Nathan: Yeah, ’cause you have… Not only is it something that is, like, a m- a more ubiquitous take that we can relate to in some ways, but it’s like, oh, I… You know, someone would be like, if they were shopping for a house, they might be like, “I don’t know. The 2024 house is, is nice.” Exactly. Like, it’s got the wood. It’s got some contrast.

[00:22:10] Like, like, it’s not bad. But then when you contrast it to not only what history had, but then something that e- all of us can relate to.

[00:22:21] David: All of us c- because if I just said, “This is a house from 1990,” versus, “This is a house from 2024,” there’s less current on that idea- Right … than this is the Home Alone house- Mm

[00:22:30] from 1990, and then this is how they remodeled the Home Alone house- … in 2024.

[00:22:37] Nathan: And then every- like, you always think about content that can make people feel something.

[00:22:42] David: Yeah.

[00:22:43] Nathan: And people are gonna feel something about that, ’cause they’re li- some version of, like, either nostalgia from watching the movie, remembering where they were when they watched it, maybe where they were when they showed their kids the movie the first time.

[00:22:53] They might feel anger at, like, are you effing kidding me?

[00:22:57] David: Yeah.

[00:22:57] Nathan: That you took the

[00:23:02] Home Alone- A righteous indignation. Yeah. You, you took the Home Alone house, and you turned it into that? Like…

[00:23:05] David: I know. It’s such a betrayal. That’s how I feel.

[00:23:07] Nathan: Yeah. And so, yeah, like, it not only elevates the current, but it also elevates the emotion around it.

[00:23:13] David: Yeah. Mm. So I have sympathy. If you’re doing a lower current thing, I have sympathy for, hey, people just aren’t reading my stuff, but also I challenge you- Mm-hmm

[00:23:21] to find a higher current frame for your idea.

[00:23:24] Nathan: You know, Ryan Holiday writes about this in his book, Trust Me, I’m Lying. Mm. And he calls the term newsjacking. Hmm. And so whatever’s happening in the news- Yeah … how do you hijack it with your own idea? So an example is, um, Jason Fried and David Heinemeier Hansson.

[00:23:39] Yep. They, uh, built a company, Basecamp.

[00:23:42] David: Yep.

[00:23:43] Nathan: And in something like 2005 or 2006, uh, Jeff Bezos invested in Basecamp I kn-

[00:23:49] David: that’s how he got rich, right?

[00:23:50] Nathan: Yeah, exactly. That’s wh- that’s where he built it all, right? And it’s just like David and Jason are famous bootstrappers, like, they have no primary capital in their business, and it’s always been their thing.

[00:24:00] But it’s like this weird thing that, like, I think Bezos owns, like, 20% of the company. Pff. And, and he just bought the shares directly from them, and, and, and all of that. And so maybe 2015, somewhere in there, Bezos becomes the richest man in the world, and so everyone is talking about it. It’s like the Knicks or Taylor Swift’s wedding right now.

[00:24:19] David: Right.

[00:24:20] Nathan: And so I knew the story of how Bezos had invested in Basecamp, ’cause they had talked about it before, but they rewrote that and said, “Here’s the story of how Bezos bought shares in our company,” published at a time when everyone was talking about Bezos being the richest person in the world, and it, you know, the article got hundreds of thousands of views.

[00:24:40] And so they, they put it in a 10 out of 10 current for X at that moment and, and it took off. And I th- feel like Ryan, in particular, is so good at saying, “Here’s all the things that I wanna talk about, and then here’s the things that they could be adjacent to And it shows up in a big way. Another example is, um, when I was writing a lot more threads on X.

[00:25:04] I’d written one about how Ryan Reynolds is the greatest marketer of our generation.

[00:25:08] David: Did you wrap it around his soccer?

[00:25:10] Nathan: Uh, so this was before… That hadn’t taken off. I, I published that thread. It, I don’t know, picked up a million views, something like that, so it did really well. And then, like, uh, and he followed me from it.

[00:25:23] Mm. And he only follows like 1,000 people, so, you know, just throwing that out there.

[00:25:27] David: Big deal.

[00:25:29] Nathan: Uh, I need X to not go away because that’s my only connection to Ryan Reynolds. That’s your one claim to fame. There we go. Yeah, exactly. Um, I imagine an intern on his team followed me, but we won’t get into that.

[00:25:38] But, um, then, like six months later or a year later, uh, Ryan sold Mint Mobile to T-Mobile for, like 1.3 billion, and so I just tweaked the very beginning of that thread, republished the whole thing, and it w- it, and so it just had the hook of the news. You know, Ryan Reynolds just sold, uh, you know, for 1.3 billion.

[00:25:59] Here’s why he’s the greatest marketer alive today or whatever.

[00:26:01] David: Bingo.

[00:26:02] Nathan: And th- then it did, like three or four times as many views because I, I took something from my archives that I already had- That’s such a good example … and threw it right in front of a major

[00:26:10] David: current. That’s exactly it, right? Like, if you can take an idea and tie it to- Mm-hmm

[00:26:15] the current of the day, just put it in a faster current, you’re gonna be good. I mean, if you’re on… You could be competing against the Olympic rowing team, but if they don’t have a current behind them- … and you’re in a little raft boat with your buddies drinking some Bud Lights, but you’re in a San Francisco bay going out-

[00:26:36] to the Pacific Ocean current, you’re gonna beat the Harvard team. Mm-hmm. You know what I mean? And if you really internalize that, you just realize, oh, there’s small tweaks that I can make to whatever I’m doing that can help me hit the airwaves of the internet.

[00:26:52] Nathan: If we go back to the skill of observation-

[00:26:54] David: Yeah

[00:26:55] Nathan: and tie it into currents.

[00:26:57] David: Yep.

[00:26:57] Nathan: Right? Because we have to… If we’re heads down in our writing, this is all I care about, then we’re not gonna notice any of the currents going on. Like, what are the things that make a difference in identifying currents? ‘Cause there’s also some… You know, if I were to… Now, I love Taylor Swift, so I’d probably find some way to tie this in and be authentic to my brand, but you know, like, you can take a random thing and you’re like, “And here’s how…”

[00:27:18] David: Dude, I love Taylor Swift, too. Yeah. I love Taylor Swift.

[00:27:22] Nathan: So you could- There’s definitely currents that you could attach to- Well,

[00:27:25] David: here’s, here’s- … that would be detrimental … here’s very- But how do you select them? This is very tactically what I do, is I, I’ve never done this. I usually do this intuitively, and actually talking about this, I’m like, “Wow, I can do a better job of this.”

[00:27:37] The two things I would do is I would pick up the big newspapers of the day. Mm-hmm. The mass newspapers. You know, pick up the New York Post, the USA Today, The Journal, The Times- Mm-hmm … and just do a quick scan of what are the big news stories. That’d be the first thing. And then the second thing that I would do is I would look at my own Twitter feed, and I’d look at the explore page.

[00:27:57] Mm-hmm. Try to de-personalize some of those things. Yeah. See what’s there, and then you could basically ride one of those waves. Mm-hmm. I mean, if you did that, it’d probably take five, six, seven minutes, then you would have a pretty intuitive sense of what the currents are. Yeah. Like, don’t over-intellectualize this.

[00:28:12] Mm-hmm. Like, just kind of scan, browse, and then you’ll know. And then the question is, how do you tie that together?

[00:28:18] Nathan: Either your own unique take on it or ideas that you already have- Yeah … that, that tie in.

[00:28:24] David: Yeah.

[00:28:25] Nathan: Yeah, and I think there’s going to be currents that- elevate your brand, right? So in, in, uh, the Basecamp case, you know, everyone’s like, “Oh, Bezos is one of the greatest entrepreneurs of, you know, the century.”

[00:28:37] And so that’s an, a brand elevating move. Um, and then there’s probably, you know, if you’re like tying… There’s probably other people that, if you’re tying it to-

[00:28:45] David: Well, I remember the Ryan Reynolds example’s really good, right? ‘Cause if you talk to me about Ryan Reynolds today, I’d be like, “Nathan, why are you bringing up Ryan Reynolds?”

[00:28:52] Mm. But like Mint Mobile transaction happens- Right … that’s in the current, right? Yep. The other thing you could do is just start thinking ahead of the currents, right? Mm. So we’re recording this, uh, June 19th, 2026, okay? So we’re two weeks away from America 250.

[00:29:06] Nathan: Right.

[00:29:07] David: That’s a current. Mm-hmm. That’s a current.

[00:29:09] Like from- And

[00:29:10] Nathan: you know it’s coming. You,

[00:29:11] David: you, you know it’s coming. You don’t have

[00:29:12] Nathan: to open the newspaper and be like, “Oh, America 250,” right? So from

[00:29:15] David: June 28th to July 4th, that is a current that’s coming. Right. Right? Then you have The Odyssey, right? Mm. So like Christopher Nolan’s big movie is coming out, okay?

[00:29:26] Go back in the Christopher Nolan archives and say, “Okay, what do I wanna pull out from Christopher Nolan? What do I wanna pull out from The Odyssey? Ancient Greek?” Mm-hmm. Okay? Like- … talk about a low current thing, right? Yeah. That’s about to- Like that is a one out of 100. You know what I mean? But ancient Greek, if you can tie to The Odyssey- Mm

[00:29:46] when the movie comes out, now you’re like an 82 out of 100 current. Right. Same idea. Like we should go up t- and talk to all the ancient Greek scholars after this- … and be like, “This is your chance, Professor. This is your chance.” And that’s how I think about it.

[00:30:01] Nathan: Right. Okay, so you me- you brought, brought up America 250.

[00:30:04] David: Yeah.

[00:30:05] Nathan: Um, t- a very practical example that came to mind for me. So, uh, my book, The Ladders of Wealth, is coming out early next year.

[00:30:11] David: Oh, sweet.

[00:30:12] Nathan: And in it, so I have these four ladders that you navigate and you learn the skills- Yep … to build wealth over time. And the opening example that I use in the book is Benjamin Franklin.

[00:30:21] David: Mm.

[00:30:22] Nathan: And so I talk through how, like his career arc matches perfectly to the four ladders. Mm. And the exact skills that he learned and all of this as he goes from, like being entry-level working in a print shop to owning 60% of all of the newspapers in the colonies, right? Like it, it’s this insane path and you can map it out perfectly.

[00:30:42] So in the next two weeks, people are going to be obsessed with the Founding Fathers, the Constitution- For sure … like all of the stuff. And so, how Benjamin Franklin’s career maps to The Ladders of Wealth, like is a 3 out of 10, 5 out of 10, you know, idea normally. But it, to your point, it’s a 10 out of 10 idea right around the 250th anniversary of the, of the United

[00:31:05] David: States.

[00:31:05] And here’s… And, and, and let’s go back to the Ryan Reynolds point, ’cause it was so good. What did you say? All you did was change the frame.

[00:31:12] Nathan: Right.

[00:31:12] David: You didn’t rewrite the entire thing. All you needed to do was change the frame. And what people need is- Clarity on why are we talking about this right now?

[00:31:23] Nathan: Mm.

[00:31:24] David: Why are you talking to me about Ben Franklin owning- … 60% of the newspapers right now? I’m not interested in that. Mm-hmm. I could care less. Oh, July 4th, America 250, something I can talk to my buddies about at the barbecue this weekend- Mm-hmm … as the fireworks are going off above me. Okay. Bring it on. Tell me.

[00:31:44] And all you need to do is change 100 words, and you just get- Right … a radical shift in somebody’s interest- Yeah … in whatever it is that you have to say.

[00:31:51] Nathan: Yeah, and I think what’s standing out to me the most is I was overestimating how much work this was.

[00:31:58] David: Mm-hmm.

[00:31:58] Nathan: But when you said, like, “Look at the calendar.”

[00:32:00] Right. “Look at the newspaper,” you know, ’cause there are these things, like the newspaper you’re, like in that moment, you’re like, “Okay, what can I write today that reacts to, like, JP Morgan just did this,” you know, or, or that sort of thing. And it’s like, and that, that feels so reactionary, but you’re like, you know the movies that are coming out.

[00:32:16] You know? Like, just look ahead at the next, at the remainder of the year.

[00:32:19] David: And here’s the thing that’s so liberating about this, is that you can jump on currents. The idea is, if you’re gonna write about popular fast-moving currents- Mm … “Oh, well, I gotta only write timely things,” but that’s not true. Because you can have that Ben Franklin story, which is- Mm

[00:32:40] literally in your book- Yeah … which is the most timeless thing ever, but just by tying something that’s timeless to something- Mm … timely, that’s all you gotta do. But the crux of what you’re saying doesn’t need to be a timely thing.

[00:32:52] Nathan: Right.

[00:32:53] David: It doesn’t need to be ephemeral. Mm. It can be something that stands the test of time.

[00:32:58] Nathan: So, like another example is I have a piece that I’m working on that I don’t have a title for it yet. It’s working title is Be Like Taylor.

[00:33:04] David: Mm.

[00:33:04] Nathan: And it ties in Taylor-

[00:33:05] David: What do you admire the most about Taylor Swift?

[00:33:07] Nathan: Oh, so much. I mean, her business acumen and her marketing and-

[00:33:09] David: Yeah …

[00:33:10] Nathan: but how prolific she is as a creator.

[00:33:12] David: Totally.

[00:33:12] Nathan: Right? Like, that is upstream from everything.

[00:33:14] David: Yep.

[00:33:15] Nathan: And so I contrast Taylor Sheridan and Taylor Swift. So basically, like what do they all have in common? Um, incredible marketers, you know, all this stuff. Incredible business people. But really upstream most is writing and their obsession with great scripts.

[00:33:30] You know, like Taylor Sheridan comes from the screenplay world. He’s a writer first. And then you get into downstream from that, the business moves that they made, uh, whether it is Taylor Swift bypassing, you know, the d- the distributions going straight to the theater companies for, um, each of her shows.

[00:33:50] David: Is there a good biography of Taylor Swift?

[00:33:54] Nathan: Not that I know of

[00:33:55] David: I feel like a lot of the information about her is very scattered

[00:33:58] Nathan: Yeah. But, like, in this example, and I don’t think anyone’s ever contrasted these two Taylor, so that’s, like, moderately interesting. Yeah, yeah,

[00:34:05] David: yeah.

[00:34:05] Nathan: If I were to drop that today, it would do well. But if I were to drop it-

[00:34:09] David: The day the album comes out

[00:34:11] Nathan: the day the album comes out, around her wedding, any of those things, it would do very well.

[00:34:16] David: Right.

[00:34:17] Nathan: And so even just thinking about that timing makes a big difference.

[00:34:20] David: But then the other thing that you can do is, as you’re thinking through the piece, you can have a section of the piece that you drop-

[00:34:26] Nathan: Mm-hmm

[00:34:26] David: when the wedding comes out, a section of the piece that you drop somewhere else, so then you can kind of- release little bits as you’re working on it- Mm-hmm … just when Taylor’s in the news. Because you’re thinking about this. Like, I bet, say that today is Friday, June 19th. Say that today it comes out Taylor Swift is getting married right now.

[00:34:43] We were in the podcast. We missed- … the wedding, right? It’s like we go outside, “Taylor Swift’s getting married. Oh my God.” Like, you would definitely have some take just right off the noggin- Right away. Yeah … to basically put onto the internet, and yeah, it’s just about a kind of, uh, kind of a chord awareness for the internet.

[00:35:02] Mm. You know?

[00:35:03] Nathan: To the World Cup right now.

[00:35:04] David: Yes, another one.

[00:35:05] Nathan: Obviously Messi just scored a hat trick in the World Cup.

[00:35:08] David: It was so fun

[00:35:10] Nathan: to watch. It was amazing. Right, but

[00:35:11] David: you- It was so

[00:35:13] Nathan: fun to watch. But there’s an example. Like, we could tie this into the World Cup as well, ’cause you watch Messi play, and you’re like, “Is he half asleep?

[00:35:18] What’s he doing?” Hmm. Right? The team is doing all of this stuff. He’s … Like, he- Have

[00:35:22] David: you seen that video where he basically does nothing the entire time- … and then scores, like, 12 goals and, you know? Yeah. It, it’s like he just k- kinda stands there- … just kind of wallows, and then it’s just game time, and he’s like, boom.

[00:35:33] Nathan: Someone described him as, you know, he’s a, he goes from normal citizen to, like, sleeper cell agent. Yes. You just activate him and he’s … Right? And so if you think about these ideas, you have these ideas, and you have all the skill, and it’s just sitting there, right? And then when the moment is perfect, just you sh- you’re ready to strike.

[00:35:51] And you, you either pull the piece from the archives and rewrite it, or you write it fresh, and you put it out there, and it’s perfectly timed to score, you know, your hat trick for Argentina in the

[00:36:01] David: World Cup. Exactly. With one caveat, to stay on the soccer thing, is Messi’s out there kicking a soccer ball every day.

[00:36:07] Like, you gotta- Correct … get in the reps so that you can have the ability to jump when it’s time. To deliver on that, for sure. And the answer is not, “Oh, I’m just gonna put away the keyboard and chill in my hammock- Yeah … and then I’ll be ready when the lights come on.”

[00:36:21] Nathan: Yeah. Yeah, he’s in the game. Yeah. And doing all the reps.

[00:36:25] I love it. Okay, we, we had some good, good current examples. We gotta drop this episode quick so it’s still current.

[00:36:31] David: If we publish this in August, no one’s gonna listen. Yeah, exactly. One out of 10 current.

[00:36:37] Nathan: Oh, man. Um, okay, something else that you talk about a lot is what you consume.

[00:36:42] David: Yeah.

[00:36:43] Nathan: I think that a lot of creators are saying, “Oh, I can’t consume this content, because then I will just be plagiarizing someone else,” or- Mm

[00:36:51] and you’re the opposite. You’re, you are consuming as much as possible.

[00:36:54] David: Mm-hmm.

[00:36:55] Nathan: How do you think about consumption as it relates to, like, the ultimate quality of your output?

[00:37:00] David: Uh, it’s changed a lot, because- I can’t read like I used to, to be completely honest. I just feel like the internet just nuked my brain.

[00:37:09] Um, I also have less of a desire to read right now. Yeah. I’m just s- in a very outgoing phase of my life. Okay. Um, so a lot of what I consume is the city of New York. Mm. I would say the city of New York is the main thing that I consume, and I love consuming through walking around and talking to people and being at social events.

[00:37:28] Like, that is my main kind of consumption right now. And with that said, I think that when I think about consuming, I think that you just need to be fishing in different ponds, okay? And that is what’s gonna help you find different ideas. And my favorite place to look right now is I love museum bookstores.

[00:37:53] I just- Mm. Art museum bookstores are so good. And what… I’m just in a phase right now where I’m obsessed with art history, and what art history lets you see is it’s like this cross-section of society and art. There’s a quote that I really love that style is the external expression of the inner spirit of an era.

[00:38:16] Style is the external expression of the inner spirit of an era. Okay. So when you look at art, what you’re actually seeing is the his- like, the spirit of that time, their values, their beliefs, their views about good and evil, um, what the good life was versus what the bad life was, God, atheism, whatever it is.

[00:38:36] It’s, like, in art, but it’s, because it’s talking about art, it’s not talking directly about religion and politics or geopol- you know, the history of the day, whatever it is. It is kind of getting to that in a oblique way, and all this to say, um, it’s a really good entry point for me to learn about the world, and you don’t need to go consume art books.

[00:38:57] Mm-hmm. I just find that art museums are so fruitful with their bookstores because they’re very uncorrelated with the rest of the stuff that I find, and I think that whatever it is, you need some sort of uncorrelated way of thinking about whatever it is that you do.

[00:39:15] Nathan: And so when you are going through, are you taking notes?

[00:39:19] Are you-

[00:39:21] David: I just kind of-

[00:39:21] Nathan: Snapping photos? You’re, you’re just- I

[00:39:23] David: just kind of- … experiencing them … pick them up. Like, on my, let’s see, on my table right now at home is I have Ralph Lauren’s In His Own Words. Mm-hmm. I have a book called The Metropol- uh, The Metropolis of Tomorrow, written in 1924 by, I think, a guy named Hugo Ferris, kind of an architecture book.

[00:39:41] I have a history of the Met. I have, um, a book on kind of Gothic drawing and architecture, so that’d be like, I don’t know, like, 9th century to 15th century, like, how they actually drew the Gothic styles. And I don’t know, I just sort of flip through them when I’m lounging around. I kind of have this long couch with these two pillows that I’ll kinda sit on as I just, like, putter around.

[00:40:01] I don’t take notes, I just kind of- Mm … look at things. I just sort of look at things. And, um, but I’m always kind of, like, looking for weird little niches. You know what I mean? Of like, what is the weird kind of super obsessive thing that I can kind of get into? And, uh, just following that, following that, following that.

[00:40:19] Nathan: Yeah. I think that y- what you consume and what you borrow from says so much about the end result. Mm-hmm. And most people who are trying to build an audience, get attention on the internet, are consuming ideas and borrowing from their immediate peers-

[00:40:35] David: Mm-hmm …

[00:40:36] Nathan: who are writing threads on 10 ways to do, you know?

[00:40:39] David: Right.

[00:40:40] Nathan: To do X, and it’s like, okay, yeah, it, it, it shows up what your inspiration is.

[00:40:43] David: The answer’s certifiably not, “If you wanna do well on Twitter, just consume everything on Twitter, and then regurgitate what you’re consuming on Twitter.” You need something else- Mm-hmm … to be pulling from, and that can be anything.

[00:40:57] There are a million ways to find what that thing is, and that thing for you can change. But I do think it’s worth having a kind of- recurring voice in your head that says, “Okay, get away from the herd, get away from the herd- Yeah … get away from the herd,” in whatever way that is for you.

[00:41:16] Nathan: My simple example is when I was learning design, learning web design, everyone w- had these, like, CSS gallery websites, and so you could see what the trends were.

[00:41:25] This, like, these, like, beautiful sites that everyone would copy and get their inspiration from. And so the herd just moved to follow different trends, and I both loved it, ’cause I was like, “Oh, I wanna be as good as they are,” and I hated it, ’cause I’m like, “I’m never gonna get there copying them.” But I needed design inspiration, and so I would go to the clothing stores.

[00:41:42] Yep. Because the textures of fabrics-

[00:41:44] David: Yep …

[00:41:45] Nathan: you know, every, I don’t know, Banana Republic or J. Crew or whoever, right, they’re, every, they’ve got the spring collection, the summer collection. They’re doing full new graphic design for it every single time, their tags, their all of those things. And you’re like, “Oh, if I just borrow your typography instead of the typography from the famous website, you know, of the day,” then it feels unique and original, ’cause I’m going from a clothing store to a website, right?

[00:42:11] We’re, we’re switching media types, and no one is thinking of it as copied or borrowed.

[00:42:16] David: Design is the perfect example. Mm-hmm. The perfect example. Their design… Here’s the thing. I like talking about design and visuals, because you can see it so clearly.

[00:42:28] Nathan: Right.

[00:42:29] David: But the same thing is true for writing, it’s just that writing takes a little bit longer to see that there is a homogenous style that is always changing with the times.

[00:42:38] So right now, what’s the homogenous style? Short sentences, a lot of copy, like, copywriting has really infiltrated- Yeah … the culture. Um, a little bit sort of like TED Talk-y, you know what I mean? Like, “If you just do this one weird trick, it’ll all work out for you, son.” You know, that’s sort of like the current copy.

[00:42:55] But in design- A- as you look at design history, you can just look at a poster and be like, “That’s a 1969 poster,” right? Mm-hmm. Like, think of all the kind of psychedelic- Yeah … um, you know, Summer of Love type posters, or you can look at this poster and say, “Okay, that is Paris post-Toulouse-Lautrec in 1913.” Right.

[00:43:19] And you can see how homogenous- Mm … the design styles of the time are. And so you were talking about, okay, one thing you can do is you can leave the world of digital design and go into fashion, and then the other thing you can do is just go to different time periods, right? Like, I was just at the Tennis Hall of Fame last weekend, and I just took a bunch of photos of…

[00:43:39] There’s, like, these really cool old Virginia Slims tennis ads, and they’re just freaking great. And I took a bunch of photos of them, saved them in my mood board. I use this tool called Cosmos that I absolutely- Mm … love. I love Cosmos. And then I just sort of save it there. And then the other thing I do is I was, you know, for, for, for clothes, to get super concrete on this.

[00:44:00] Actually, right before this, what I did was I went to, uh, the World Cup store. I was gonna buy some, you know, some, some gear. Team USA’s playing today, and, um, my parents live in Holland, so I was like, “Get, get a Dutch jersey.” So I walk in, all new stuff, and I’m just like, “I hate all of this.” I don’t like-

[00:44:18] Nathan: This could be so good and

[00:44:19] David: yet-

[00:44:19] anything in here. The new tea- Team USA jerseys are just terrible. Yeah. The new Holland jerseys are so just, like, uninspiring. So I’m like, “What am I gonna do? I’m gonna go vintage.” Mm. “I’m gonna go vintage.” And so, you know, I call my vintage friend JD, and I was like, “Hey, where do you recommend I go? Send me three vintage soccer stores.”

[00:44:35] And so what I’m just gonna do is I’m just gonna travel back in time, you know, find some, like, 1988 Team USA- Yeah … jersey or, like, pick up some Olympics thing, and, like, that’ll be cool. It won’t have the same kind of homogeneity that, like, all the jerseys there were homogenous in the same way, right? Um, and once again, it’s like finding different pools to swim in.

[00:45:01] Like, even when I buy clothes, I have a vintage guy in Brooklyn who worked for Ralph for 10 years, and I just go to Sean. Mm. And I just walk into his store, and, like, that’s where I begin all my searches. I don’t even go to new stores. I don’t buy new clothes. It’s worse for the environment, and it’s way more homogenous, and it’s more expensive.

[00:45:20] And it’s like that for everything. It’s that for ideas. It’s that for design. Mm. It’s that for everything, ’cause it’s all the same. Every medium is exactly the same. The, the exact same thing happens everywhere.

[00:45:32] Nathan: Mm. I love that. You bring such a unique style to everything y- that you do.

[00:45:36] David: Thank you.

[00:45:36] Nathan: Something that I wanna dive into is your podcast.

[00:45:39] David: Yeah.

[00:45:39] Nathan: How I Write.

[00:45:40] David: Yeah.

[00:45:41] Nathan: When- It came out, I feel like you were so differentiated ’cause you’re going so deep.

[00:45:47] David: Mm-hmm.

[00:45:47] Nathan: And you’re like, it was adjacent to the, like, the business and, you know, nonfiction writing world that you and I have both spent a lot of time into, in, in. But, like, you’re just obsessed with the craft.

[00:45:59] Mm-hmm. Like, what made you say, “Okay, this is the show that I wanna make”?

[00:46:04] David: Well, uh, so I had a f- podcast before called the North Star Podcast, and I probably did, I don’t know, like, 150 episodes, and then I took three or four years off podcasting, and then I really had my chance to, you know, really aim before I fired, and that’s exactly what I wanted.

[00:46:24] I wanted something that was distinct and different. I wanted something that was pretty legible. Like, how I write is a very legible thing. Mm-hmm. Like, oh, I understand what your writing show is. Um-

[00:46:34] Nathan: Yeah. I’m like, “What, what am I gonna get out of this podcast?” I- it’s pretty clear.

[00:46:37] David: Yeah, exactly. The other thing that I like doing is I really like looking at old formats that have either no longer exist that used to be popular that I can bring back or something where I can shift the medium.

[00:46:51] Okay. So I love doing that. Mm-hmm. So with how I write, there’s a wonderful series of author interviews on the Paris Review, and they’ve interviewed the who’s who, right? Marshall McLuhan, and, uh, so many of the- Yeah … you know, Robert Caro, Joan Didion, all those sorts of people, right? I should not be struggling for writers’ names that hard.

[00:47:13] That is, like, what is going on here? It’s Friday morning.

[00:47:21] That was humiliating. You good? Like, dude. So anyway, they’ve done all the, they’ve done all the writers, and I was like, “Okay, I love this series. They have these interviews that are really in-depth, you know, probably take you 40, 50 minutes to read,” and I was like, “What if I did that for the internet?” Mm. Okay?

[00:47:39] What if I, like, Charlie Rose-ified it? And I was like, “I feel like that could work.” And so that’s what I did, and that’s what I do now.

[00:47:47] Nathan: So you put in a level of production value that I feel like is beyond so many other shows. You’re doing these custom sets. Like, w- w- from the production side-

[00:47:57] David: Mm-hmm …

[00:47:58] Nathan: what are you looking for when you’re building out a set and figuring out, okay, how are you going to-

[00:48:03] David: Yeah, so I-

[00:48:04] Nathan: like, set a c- your show has a vibe to it, and so I can immediately see, ah, this is…

[00:48:08] David: Yeah, so I like, I have a bit… What I always go for is I want classic but not stuffy.

[00:48:17] Nathan: Okay.

[00:48:17] David: And I want- That to be balanced with warmth. So it just, you see that all over the place. So the way that we grade the color just is- Mm-hmm

[00:48:27] a higher temperature. So it’s less like one of those street lamps with really white light- Yeah … and more like the color of a candle, right? Mm-hmm. I wanna get closer to that, not overdo it. Um, so there’s a consistency in terms of color grading that we’re really intentional about. Then in terms of the spaces that I go for, I really like carpets.

[00:48:46] Mm-hmm. Um, like this, sort of this Persian carpet type look that you can

[00:48:50] Nathan: see. Two people on our team are, uh, obsessed with rugs. So Haley, who you met- Yeah … and then our CEO O’Brien, they’re, they’re both … They’ll be like, “Well, uh, so, you know, with the Iranian government and this, all the rugs came in before this year.”

[00:49:03] And then you’re like, “Oh, wow, you, you two are, like, deep in this world.” So there’s a bunch of fun rugs in Kit Studios New York.

[00:49:10] David: Yeah. And then I want just high quality production. Now what’s changed is I When I started, I was like, “I wanna go absolutely all out on that.” Mm-hmm. I’ve kind of pulled back on it. I do think that there’s diminishing returns in terms of cost.

[00:49:24] The other thing that’s really nice is, this is part of the reason why I moved from Texas to New York- Mm-hmm … is it used to be, I mean, last year I flew 93,000 miles. I was at 31 different airports, just mostly working on the show, and that’s ’cause I was filming just all over the world, having to set up sets- Right

[00:49:40] in different places. Um, I remember when I interviewed Tyler Cowen, we just had a blank gray room. We set up a full set, got it shipped, everything shipped in, set it up, then decomposed the set, shipped everything back. So I mean, I went pretty all out on it, and I needed to when I was traveling. Now I’m here, I just record in my apartment- Mm-hmm

[00:49:59] and, uh, that’s pretty dialed in. But I actually wouldn’t say that set is incredible. I’d say it’s like a seven or eight out of 10. Yeah. And really what I wanna do is I just wanna, it’s kinda like this, like, I wanna communicate that there’s been some thought. And people are very good at intuitively looking at the aesthetics of a thing and all of a sudden coming to a bunch of conclusions about that.

[00:50:20] Right. And I wanna work with that grain rather than against it.

[00:50:23] Nathan: So when you talk about, first like for the Tyler Cowen episode- Yeah … what would you spend to

[00:50:30] David: build out a set like that? I wanna say, well, that one, that one was kind of a good deal, right? ‘Cause the trade is I did it for Tyler Cowen and I did it for Alex Hormozi, and I got the spaces for free.

[00:50:40] Mm-hmm. Right? So I usually spend between $1,000 and $1,500 per episode on a space, so I just took all that money and put it into- Mm … the set design rental.

[00:50:53] Nathan: Yeah. Okay, so you’re not spending a crazy amount of money. It’s, I mean, when you do it every single week it adds up, but it’s not like this is ridiculously over the top.

[00:51:01] David: No.

[00:51:02] Nathan: Yeah. And then, but then you backed off a little bit.

[00:51:06] David: Yeah. ‘

[00:51:06] Nathan: Cause you real- like what, what came into that? ‘Cause I think a lot of creators were, were trying to push the envelope in all these a- areas all at once, but then you realize like, oh, some of these have diminishing returns, or…

[00:51:17] David: Yeah. I think it’s just important to have a good set- Mm-hmm

[00:51:21] that works out well. But really what I’ve invested my time in is editing and content. Mm. Like, the thing that’s gonna take me to base camp- Mm-hmm … is a good set. The thing that’s gonna take me to the top of Everest is great content.

[00:51:32] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:51:33] David: You know what I mean? And- Then it’s just a matter of I work with a researcher for every episode, so I get about 30, 35 pages of notes.

[00:51:43] Yesterday was 40 pages of notes for a guy named Harlan Coben who just came on. Oh, wow. Um, then I go through it. I basically, sort of like what I sent you, I put the episode into different sections. Mm-hmm. And then I have kind of direct quotes, super specific things, and then I tell every guest right before that I want three things from you.

[00:52:03] I want stories, I want examples, and I want takes. Okay. So stories, I wanna hear stories of just from your life that’s really gonna… The ear loves a story more than the eye. Yeah. Oh, yeah. The ear loves a story. Right, think of the bar. Right. Think of an Irish bar. Me then, yeah. Um, second thing is I want an example.

[00:52:18] I don’t just want to hear that you like stories that have about family that emerge from a fight. I wanna know in this book, how did you do it, and in this book, how do you do it? And then also takes. I wanna know what you believe that other people don’t believe about the writing process. Mm-hmm. And if I can just get those three things from you over and over and over- Mm

[00:52:40] then that’ll be good. And then what we do is we do three or four passes of editing after. So I have- Yeah, when I heard this- … my editor-

[00:52:47] Nathan: Like most people just hand off the editing and they’re like- Yeah … “It’s good to go.”

[00:52:49] David: I go through every single episode. I watch every single second at 1X speed. I have notes on my right side, or like on the right side of the screen, where I have interview notes for myself that I’ve collected over the years.

[00:53:01] Mm-hmm. And that’s just my game film. If something, I asked a bad question, I gotta sit through it. If I interrupted someone, I gotta sit through it. I need to watch what I’ve done, where I messed up, what I did well, have a visceral sense of that, and then the next time I film, boom, like I gotta implement that, be better at my craft.

[00:53:19] Mm.

[00:53:19] Nathan: Okay, so the first take, or the fir- the first edit, you’re looking for how you did as an interviewer, and you’re looking for the best moments in the, in the show? Like

[00:53:28] David: w- So this is exactly what happens. So, uh, interview ends, and I need to then send, I do a voice note for my team- Mm-hmm … of exactly what I’m thinking about.

[00:53:40] So this section was boring. You know what? We got into it about- Mm … 16 minutes. I feel like that was when it was really good. There was a good section at the end, which was about psychedelics and drugs. Let’s actually bring that up to the- Mm-hmm … beginning of the episode. This is just gonna be a better hook for the frame.

[00:53:54] I also think that works better with the packaging. Um, this person’s gonna introduce us to, uh, this person and that person. Here’s their email. It’s just like for the team- Yeah … it’s everything you need to know. So then the editors, they see that, and I’ve basically given some high level direction on what to cut.

[00:54:10] So they do a pass, and they look for two things. The first is sections that are boring. Like, I’m like, “When were you bored?”

[00:54:18] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:54:19] David: No tolerance for boredom. When were you bored? And I want you to cut that, but I don’t want you to cut it fully, just move it to the end. So what I do when I get it, I see the full interview, then I have a black screen that’s like 10 seconds, and then I have- Mm

[00:54:30] everything after, so I can watch what was cut, choose to keep it out, see why it was bad, or bring it back in if I wanted to. ‘

[00:54:38] Nathan: Cause you might see there’s a version of this- Exactly … that actually could be good- Exactly … if we edit it differently, put it in a different spot, any of those things. Right.

[00:54:46] David: And ex- exactly.

[00:54:49] And then the other thing that I do is from there, then I’ll watch the full thing, and I just pay super attention to when I’m bored, what I’m not interested in. And then what comes from that is I’ll have like a section of clips, which will then, for a clips editor, here are the ones that you should do, um, good takes for how we wanna frame the episode.

[00:55:07] Okay, here’s the YouTube packaging, like title, thumbnail, here are some ideas, and then interview notes for myself, like you did well here, you didn’t do well here.

[00:55:13] Nathan: Mm-hmm. Do you have the packaging, like ideas for the packaging before you go in to do the interview?

[00:55:19] David: For everyone I’ve talked to, that is best practice.

[00:55:22] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:55:22] David: Best practice. Like, you gotta do it, and my advice for other people is to totally do it, and I absolutely hate doing that. I absolutely hate doing that. It kills the vibe for me. Mm-hmm. I h- I, I feel like I narrow my range of motion, and it’s just one of those things, like you wanna be optimized until you hate doing something, and then just- Right

[00:55:40] don’t freaking do it.

[00:55:41] Nathan: Yeah. If you optimize for joy and energy- Yeah … like, it’s gonna show through in the episode.

[00:55:45] David: Yeah. The worst thing that could happen is for me to hate doing the show.

[00:55:49] Nathan: Yeah, exactly.

[00:55:49] David: You know what I mean?

[00:55:50] Nathan: Why? Yeah. You’re, you’re in full control, and you’ve created something that you don’t-

[00:55:55] David: Yeah

[00:55:55] Nathan: love to do. So the, the prep and research process, if you were giving yourself advice from, you know, a couple years ago, like when you were just starting the show, what would you say about, like, okay, this is what you gotta do on the prep and research?

[00:56:07] David: Have a game plan.

[00:56:08] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:56:09] David: Have a game plan. Like, go in with a game plan of what it is you’re gonna talk about, and tell the other person what that game plan is- Mm

[00:56:16] if they want it. And the other thing that is really helpful in podcasts is, I would say one in five episodes, I just don’t click with the other person. Mm. And I, I gotta work on this. Then I kinda, kinda go into a fight or flight mode a little bit, and then I get stressed out, and then they get stressed out, and I would really like to be not just a podcast host, but a person- Mm

[00:56:41] that other people step in my presence, and they feel a sense of peace and relaxation- Yeah … while also having my drive, and my intensity- Mm … and my passion. Like, I’m, spend a lot of time thinking about how do I cultivate both of those? And all this to say about the advice, one thing that I do have is quotes.

[00:57:01] For example, do inspirations, like a kind of fire round, but I have things that I can kind of fall back on if my mind goes blank, kind of like what it just did when I was thinking about the authors. Mm-hmm. Like, my mind me- went blank there. Sometimes that happens when I’m doing a podcast, and I’ll usually have two or three kind of like- escape valves- Yeah

[00:57:20] where I can go and I’ll say, “Okay, we’re gonna do a fire round. These are your favorite authors. Tell me about what you learned from Hemingway. Tell me about what you learned from Seamus Heaney.” Mm-hmm. And they’re like, I already know what their favorite authors are. They’re like, “I’m primed,” you know? Um- And you’re like- That’s really helpful

[00:57:34] Nathan: if so, you could change the energy of the conversation- Boom … ’cause you, ’cause you’re

[00:57:38] David: just like- 100%.

[00:57:39] Nathan: Tell- I know you love this thing, tell me about it. And you’re like, “You want me to talk about the thing I love for the next 30 seconds?” Exactly. “And do…” Yeah. Of course, I can do that.

[00:57:46] David: Exactly. Exactly.

[00:57:48] Nathan: Hmm. Okay, so that- that’s the prep and the editing.

[00:57:52] There’s a lot, like, there’s layers to this. So, like, Vanessa Van Edwards told me- Yep … that she did 70 hours of prep when she was going on Diary of a CEO of, as a guest.

[00:58:00] David: Yeah.

[00:58:01] Nathan: And so, and that’s, you know, you’re talking 30, 40 pages of notes and research going into these things. I think people don’t realize h- these top creators, how much work they’re putting in.

[00:58:13] You know, or even, like, this is a little embarrassing to, to admit, I don’t watch most of my episodes after, like, after I finish recording them.

[00:58:20] David: Mm-hmm.

[00:58:21] Nathan: Right? And so I, you know, I’m sitting here and I’m taking notes. I’m like, okay, I gotta, I gotta go through my own game tape and, and realize like, okay, what went well?

[00:58:28] I just did an interview, um, last week with Mike Pacchione.

[00:58:31] David: It’s maybe my least favorite work that I do.

[00:58:33] Nathan: Yeah?

[00:58:33] David: I hate doing it. Keep going. But I just feel like I have to.

[00:58:37] Nathan: Yeah. But I did this interview with Mike Pacchione, um, who’s a speaking coach, and he, all of the speakers at Craft and Commerce for the last eight times we’ve done the event, he has coached them in- individually on, like, how to make their talk great.

[00:58:49] David: Cool.

[00:58:49] Nathan: And it’s just a thing that we do where we- we’re like, “You know what? The audience deserves the best. Like, you know, we’ll hire a speaking coach on, on behalf of everybody.” And I feel like that was one of the best interviews I’ve ever done. And so then, uh, now I need to watch that back, exactly as you said, and be like, “Okay, what did I do differently?

[00:59:05] Was it the prep? Was it the energy? Was it that Mike and I have been friends for a decade?” Like, any of those things. Um, ’cause I believe that all of these things in life are skills that you can learn with deliberate practice. And so it’s like, okay, what are you trying to master and- Mm-hmm … get better at that?

[00:59:20] David: Well, to this point, the craft that I’m trying to master actually with the podcast has very little to do with writing.

[00:59:29] Nathan: Okay.

[00:59:29] David: The craft that I’m obsessed with is how do you get absolute psychos of all different ranges who are married to the game in their own way- Mm-hmm … from poets to politicians to stand-up comedians to super sh- shy fiction writers, and how do I meet them for the first time, record with them five minutes after I’ve met them for the first time, and then- Two hours later, get them to say, “That’s the best interview I’ve ever done.”

[00:59:58] Mm. How do I do that? And that has to do with the energy that I bring. It has to do with the space that I cultivate- Right … the prep that I do or don’t do, the cadence, the vibe of the conversation. Do I lean into eye contact? Do I lean out of eye contact? Body language. I mean, there’s 874 different variables, and I wanna know what all those different variables are.

[01:00:19] Mm. And it’s like the art of that deep communication is what I’m obsessed with. Mm. And that’s why I watch the game tape. Right. Because what I’m looking for as much as the information is, what does body language do? Mm. And it’s like a study in human communication, and that is vast- Mm … vastly interesting to me

[01:00:40] Nathan: Okay, so then you’ve got the episode-

[01:00:42] David: Mm-hmm

[01:00:42] Nathan: and you’re putting it live. Mm-hmm. What have you learned about video podcasting and YouTube growth and all of this of, like, actually getting attention to these ideas?

[01:00:51] David: Yeah. So you know how people talk about how, like, they, they did something and it took, like, a year off their life? Yeah. Like, my, all the time I’ve spent in YouTube thumbnails has taken 5% of the soul out of me, okay?

[01:01:05] I’ve spent more time looking at YouTube thumbnails than I ever wanted to in my life- Mm … and I’m, like, 5% more soulless as a human being because of all the time I’ve spent on this. It is just the least fun, most important playground for someone who wants- Mm … a YouTube show. And the reason is that your average view duration combined with your thumbnail testing and title testing, it just really matters.

[01:01:32] Mm. And one of the things I learned from MrBeast, I went one time to his house. I visited him- Mm … in, uh, in North Carolina, spent three days or something, two or three days playing basketball with him. And so we’d, like, play basketball during the day, and then at dinner, uh, we’d sort of chat and talk shop, and MrBeast loves to talk shop.

[01:01:49] Like, the coolest thing about MrBeast is what he wants is he wants to learn as much from you as possible, and in exchange, he will teach you everything that he knows. You know, kind of like you’re about to teach everything you know- Yeah … right? He will just talk shop all day. And one of the things I learned from him, he did this PowerPoint presentation, and he just talked about how he thinks about packaging and framing.

[01:02:13] Mm-hmm. And one of the things he said is, “When you find something that works, just go really hard on doubling down on it.” And actually, this is a strong piece of advice I’d have for creators is double, triple down on what works. Um, it sounds really simple, but you don’t need to be super creative. So with MrBeast, it’s like I put 44 people inside the red circle.

[01:02:37] I put one guy inside, inside of the red circle. I put one guy inside of the red circle for seven days. I put somebody inside the red circle for seven years. This person was locked in this thing for this many days- Yep … until this happened. And if you just go through MrBeast’s videos, you’ll see he finds a format that works, and then he doubles and triples- Right

[01:02:57] and quadruples down on it, and that has totally happened for us, which is, for example, learn- Blank in blank minutes. We’ve done that- Mm … so many times. Or how to write adverb, my friends always make fun of me for this, how to write absurdly well, how to write whatever, insert something L-Y well, and you just- Mm.

[01:03:21] We have so many titles like that. And I think when it comes to YouTube thumbnails and a lot of stuff on the internet like this, you just gotta Forrest Gump it a little bit. You just gotta say, “What does the most basic, stupid version of me know that the smartest version of me can’t see?” And then go actually do that thing.

[01:03:41] Nathan: Mm. Yeah, do- finding what works and doing it over and over again.

[01:03:44] David: Yep. I mean, this is why, you know, you go to these conferences with people who are, like, especially, like, middle America entrepreneurs, like somebody who runs a construction business, like they run a big pool business, fencing business. Like, a lot of them are so boring.

[01:03:59] Nathan: Right.

[01:04:00] David: A lot of them are so boring, and you just kinda talk to them, and they’re like I found something that worked and I just never stopped doing it. And then I got really rich after 30 years.

[01:04:14] Nathan: My roofing business is now worth a billion dollars. Yeah. You know? And there’s, like, legitimately tons of those people.

[01:04:19] David: They’re so boring, but they’re also gonna be way more successful than I’m ever gonna be in business- … because they’re not super curious. Mm-hmm. They don’t have a big need for novelty, and they just, “I know what works, man.” You know what I mean?

[01:04:36] Nathan: So in podcast growth, ’cause I feel like that’s one of the hardest things on the internet-

[01:04:40] David: Yep

[01:04:40] Nathan: is to grow a podcast, what are some other things beyond the YouTube side that have worked? Or, or beyond titles and packaging and thumbnails.

[01:04:46] David: Yeah. I’ll tell you what I think about every day at this point is I gotta get the best guest in the entire world. Mm-hmm. I’ve a guest maximization strategy. My interview with Stephen King will get more than 100,000 views.

[01:04:59] Nathan: It will.

[01:04:59] David: Okay? So how do I get Stephen King on the show, right? Right. My i- my interview with Taylor Swift will get more than 100,000 views, so how do I get Taylor Swift on the show? Mm-hmm. I don’t know, but a lot of that is just really simple. You have the guest on, hopefully do a good enough, good enough job.

[01:05:17] I say, “Hey, can you make an intro to somebody?” They’ll say, “Oh, sure, I can intro you to this person or this person,” and then I just go from there. And now that I’ve gotten in the flow of that and have a pretty good system, I also have a really good full-time guest booker. Mm. Like, I have… He is freaking great and super committed, and we work our tails off to get people and are super strategic.

[01:05:40] And a lot of times we’ll follow up with someone 12 times before they come- Mm … on the show. You know, we have a few people right now, they’re just like, “They’ve gone dark.” All right, follow-up date, August 17th, we’ll follow up August 17th. Mm-hmm. And personal intros, relentless follow-up, and then just finding the nodes in the network of who can make the intros, the publicists at the big, the bigger publishing houses.

[01:06:02] And then once again, you talk about current, writers are- much more likely to come on a show when they’re promoting something.

[01:06:10] Nathan: Right.

[01:06:10] David: So I’m always looking at Amazon pre-orders, who’s pre-ordering, who’s having their books pre-ordered right now. Mm. And I’m looking right now for August, September, October, November, December, right?

[01:06:21] Malcolm Gladwell’s coming out with a book in, in November. I ran into Malcolm Gladwell at the Maker Hotel in Hudson, New York. Went up to him, I said, “Hi, I’m David Perell. Good to meet you.” Uh, he said, “Eh, I don’t know if I’d be interested in coming on the show, but here’s my email.” And I’ve emailed him, like, way too many times.

[01:06:41] I sound like a crazy ex-girlfriend. Yeah. You know what I mean? But he’s got a book coming out in November. We’ll try to get him on.

[01:06:47] Nathan: And so, I mean, you had so many guests on, like even people who someone who’s obsessed with writing wouldn’t think of as a writer. Well, you know, uh, take Howard Marks, for example.

[01:06:54] David: Yeah.

[01:06:55] Nathan: Right? But a prolific, very, very effective writer. How do you go about getting someone like Howard on the show?

[01:07:01] David: I forget how I did Howard, but I have a take.

[01:07:03] Nathan: Yeah.

[01:07:03] David: I have a take. Investor letters are the highest ROI per word writing in the entire world. And investor letters are a very underappreciated- Mm-hmm

[01:07:15] writing art form. If you think of words published versus value created- Mm … with Howard Marks, Jeff Bezos, and Warren Buffett-

[01:07:24] Nathan: Yeah. Oh, yeah

[01:07:25] David: I mean, I don’t know, we’d gotta crunch the numbers on this

[01:07:29] Nathan: We’re millions of dollars per word, if not…

[01:07:32] David: I mean, I wouldn’t be surprised- Yeah … if they’ve created more value just with the three of their letters than the value of the entire book publishing industry.

[01:07:41] Right. Do you know what I mean?

[01:07:43] Nathan: Oh, yeah.

[01:07:44] David: That’s crazy that Bezos or whatever can, can, can do that, and I just think investor letters are a very underappreciated- They’re so good … writing form because of this.

[01:07:53] Nathan: They’re so good. Okay, so going back to guest booking- Yeah … ’cause that’s the thing of, like, you know, especially if you always record in person.

[01:07:59] Yep. Right? That, that’s a hard thing to do. You have to get on a plane a bunch, or you have to find the timing right, um- I mean,

[01:08:04] David: I had to move to New York.

[01:08:06] Nathan: Right. So what are the things that you d- you’re doing to, to make sure that you’re getting just killer guest after killer guest?

[01:08:13] David: Honestly, it’s really simple.

[01:08:14] It comes down to three things. The first is you do cold outreach and relentless follow-up. That one works the least well, okay? Yeah. The second is you do what you can to meet people in person. Like, I will go to the different publishing houses- Mm … and I will walk into, you know, Macmillan, and then I will have a conversation with their publicist or whatever.

[01:08:38] I haven’t done it at Macmillan. Yeah. I had the CEO on the show. And then I will say, “All right, Jane, this is our show. Can you send me emails?” And then they send catalogs. Like, there’s people whose job it is to pu- to promote and publicize the books.

[01:08:52] Nathan: Right.

[01:08:52] David: I think basically at this point, How I Write is among the best ways to promote or publicize your book.

[01:08:58] Mm. For, like, a two-hour thing, I mean, I have an audience full of readers, all these sorts of things, so I can make a compelling pitch to them and I say, “Hey, send me your top people.” Mm-hmm. I’ll swipe left on a lot of them, but then I’ll swipe right on some of the really good ones, right? But by far and away, the best ones, this is true for fundraising for my series, The Modern World, it’s true for getting guests on the show, personal intros.

[01:09:19] This, this world runs on personal intros, okay? It does not run on merit. It is all who do you know, can you make an intro, and, um, if you come as a highly vetted person- Mm … the, the currents go way faster in those worlds than if you don’t.

[01:09:34] Nathan: So you, so at the end of an episode, afterwards you’re saying… Are you asking for a specific intro, or are you saying, “Is there someone

[01:09:40] David: that-” I’ll tell you exactly what I say.

[01:09:42] “Hey, I really enjoyed this.” Is there someone you know, based on the experience you had, who you think would be great for the show? Mm-hmm. And then they’ll say, “Yes,” “No,” “Email me.” And then what I say is, “The best guests have been writing for at least a decade- Mm-hmm … they’re very verbally articulate, and they have a unique perspective- Mm

[01:10:06] on the writing process. And if you know anyone with those three, then, then that’d be great. And then, you know, somebody recently said, “All right, send me some of your guests, and then what I’ll do is I’ll take a look at your guest sheet and, uh, see who I know,” which is kind of like- Yeah … trying to size me up and all that, which is fine.

[01:10:24] Like, that’s, that’s, that’s what people do. And, uh, so that’s what I’ll do, and then do the follow-up email, and then follow up relentlessly.

[01:10:31] Nathan: Okay. So I feel like you then stepped out of this world-

[01:10:35] David: Yep …

[01:10:35] Nathan: of how do I, you know, make great content on, you know, about writing and publishing and podcasting. Like, that was a jump from the business stuff you were doing before, but, like, we haven’t moved that far.

[01:10:46] David: Mm-hmm.

[01:10:46] Nathan: And then you come fully out of left field- Mm-hmm … and you’re like, “We’re going to make a TV show- Yeah. … and go into the modern world.” Let’s go. And also, the other thing is, you s- you step away from behind the camera. Right? You’re, you’re no longer are in front of the camera.

[01:11:00] David: Mm-hmm.

[01:11:01] Nathan: And now you’re producing and you’re creating this.

[01:11:02] Mm-hmm. So what’s the modern world, and why did you create it?

[01:11:06] David: Let’s see. Years ago, it was 2022, a few things happened concurrently. The first was I did my first trip to Paris, and I was just blown away by how things looked in France. Mm. It’s just so beautiful. So beautiful. I’d never seen anything like that.

[01:11:24] And the contrast between that and Texas, I was like, “What is going on here? How is this- Yeah … the same civilization that’s created these things?” Right. We breathe the same air and- Right? Like, just so beautiful and thoughtful. And not just like Versailles, but just how they presented you with a espresso and chocolate croissant, you know what I mean?

[01:11:43] Mm-hmm. Like I remember I went and I went to go buy some charcuterie, and I always thought charcuterie was, like a charcuterie board, of course it’s gonna have meat and cheese. But the charcuterie in, in, in France is, they only sell you the meat. So the guy goes, “W- you know, we have no cheese. Like, go over there to go buy your cheese.”

[01:12:00] So I go and I got my meats and I got my prosciutto, salami, whatever, and the lady goes, “Show me your meat board.” And so I show it to her. She goes, “Oh, you know, just the perfect five cheeses.” But then she goes, “You need to eat the cheeses in this order. One, two, three, four, five.” “Do not do it otherwise.” And I was just like, that care and attention is, like, what is going on here?

[01:12:21] All to say, I’d gone to Paris, and then I found this account called The Cultural Tutor on Twitter. Mm. Anonymous account. I was like, this guy is so brilliant. I followed him from the early days, man. I need to get in touch with him. I need to get in touch with him. So I hop on FaceTime with him, and it turned out that my friend Harry Dry, who I’d had dinner with in London, they were friends.

[01:12:43] I texted Harry. I was like, “I need you to put in touch with him.” He goes, “Yeah, I’m 24, 25 years old. I live in northern England. I just quit my job at McDonald’s.” Um, “I’m tired of, like, cleaning toilets and getting s- like getting the ketchup out of the parking lot at McDonald’s. Um, I don’t have a lot of money, so I’m gonna try tutoring people in culture, uh, as like a way to kind of make some scrap.

[01:13:05] And then if it doesn’t work out, I’m gonna go join the British military.” And I’m like, “Dude, what?” So I just raised some money.

[01:13:14] Nathan: And he’s getting millions of views- Millions of views … on his, on his threads on X.

[01:13:17] David: I’m like, “Dude, you have so much game. I’ve just raised some money for my company. Can we just make you a writer in residence?

[01:13:24] And you don’t need to do anything for us. All I would like you to do is just publish every day, ’cause you’re just so good at what you do.” He’s like, “Great, let’s do it.” So he becomes the largest art and architecture account in the entire world, becomes one of my pretty good friends, and we’re in London last April, and he would just give me a tour of the city every day, and I’m like, “Shian, you’re a good writer, but your presenting is out of this world.”

[01:13:50] Mm. Out of this world. We need to make a film And so we go to Hollywood, they say there’s no interest. You can only really make a series like this if you’re into music, sports, true crime. Hmm. And I said, “To hell with that. We’re gonna make a pilot episode. People are definitely interested.” So we launch a brand new YouTube channel.

[01:14:08] Um, our goal is 100,000 views, and we ended up doing 100,000 views in like the first 16, 24 hours. Um, yeah, it got up to five and a half million. The channel now has almost a quarter- Hmm … quarter million subscribers from that one video. And so now the game plan is let’s go make a series. Hmm. I really believe in Shian.

[01:14:29] I think Shian is just so talented, but also just the best guy. He’s magic on

[01:14:35] Nathan: camera.

[01:14:35] David: Magic on camera. But the other thing is like You know, you just talk to people and you’re like, “Okay

[01:14:47] The London phone booth Mm-hmm … so charming, so wonderful. And then Oh, no. This is what replaced it. You know what I mean? Like- It’s so bad … what are we doing? Why, why are we seeing this all over the place, right? Like, what is going on with this difference, you know? It’s like everyone prefers this over this- Mm-hmm

[01:15:12] but this is what we’re building so much more. Right. And it’s not a coincidence that, like, look at this, this phone booth is out of commission- Mm … but it’s so beautiful that people said, “No, we want this on our streets.”

[01:15:24] Nathan: Right.

[01:15:24] David: This one is ugly and, you know, it’s been defaced with graffiti and you just see the same pattern all over the place.

[01:15:32] Mm-hmm. Same thing in San Francisco, where I grew up. There were these chains on this railing that I always- Mm … used to walk by, and I used to love these chains. You know, it’s, um… You know where this is, right? Yeah. Oh, yeah. It’s, it’s, it’s sort of like these big ship chains. They’re kind of rusted. The waves- Oh, yeah

[01:15:48] would crash against them. I used to love this. And, like, some bureaucrat somewhere decided it was a good idea to replace it with this metal railing.

[01:15:57] Nathan: Yeah.

[01:15:58] David: Like, this is obviously worse. And to me, you know, we talk a lot about climate change and the, the pollution of our natural environment, but I think this is the pollution of our man-made environment- Mm-hmm

[01:16:11] and this shows up everywhere. It shows up from, uh, just the way that a gate is designed to a way that a light is, is constructed to just the way that a, a, a bus stop works. Mm. I mean, the City of Los Angeles spent $200,000 on this bus stop- That’s so bad … and they brought, I think they brought the mayor or somebody to the bus stop to celebrate the opening of this bus stop.

[01:16:35] This bus stop is appalling. Like, you know, we talk a lot about equality and equity- Mm … and, you know, helping, you know, making public transportation something that everyone… That’s accessible to everyone, and I’m so pro public transportation. I love public transportation. We talk about making the trains go faster, the buses go faster, having them run on time more.

[01:17:00] The problem is if you stand in front of this bus stop, you look like a freaking loser- … so no one wants to do it. We could make bus stops- Right … for cheaper than $200,000 that’d be kind of cool to sit in. Mm-hmm. You know? We’d be like, “That’s a nice bus stop that actually gives people shelter.” And it just shows up all over the place, and if you learn to see like this, you’ll go on a walk and you’ll see 10 things on a walk that could just be a little bit better.

[01:17:26] The difference between a lamppost that’s just a gray slab, and one with some ornamenta- you know, some ornamentation. Mm-hmm. And it, you know, it gets into the, even the biggest questions about, how does the government interact with its people? What does the government owe its people, the public? Mm-hmm. We know we’re the ones who pay the taxes.

[01:17:43] And you show up here, last thing I’ll say on this- You talked about that wooden table. The first thing you showed me was a wooden table- Yeah … from 1880. That was from a post office. Mm-hmm. The, we used to design post offices with the American dream etched in stone, right? The dream of this was a place of, of, of, of ambition, a place that had values, a place where the public deserved beauty, and that beauty could just show up in a mu- in, in, in a mural, could show up with a table like that, could show up with a nice art deco pedant, and now you walk into a post office and it’s none of that.

[01:18:14] You got cheap fluorescent lights. You have a table that’s absolute crap. Everything is optimized for cheapness and efficiency, and that is what the government is telling us th- who we are. Mm-hmm. That’s what they’re saying. It’s what builders are telling us who we are. And I wanna elevate the human spirit.

[01:18:30] I believe in the dignity of every single human being, and it shows up in a bus stop, it shows up in a railing, it shows up in a telephone booth. It shows up in 100,000 things across the city of New York, and I just wanna open people’s eyes to this, and I just feel like that is my mission in life right now.

[01:18:46] Nathan: Mm-hmm. I love that. I mean, I watched the, the pilot when it came out, and it just did such a good job of telling that story and sharing it. Now, it’s honestly a little bit depressing.

[01:18:59] David: It’s really depressing. It should be. It should be. Um, you know, we, we fly our flag high about how much progress we’ve made, how wealthy we are, but the stuff we build these days has seriously declined in quality.

[01:19:17] Mm-hmm. And the decline in quality is one thing, but the way that, what that decline in quality says about what we believe about human beings- Mm … and what they deserve, and our duty as builders to the consumers of the thing that we build, that to me is depressing, and it’s something to rebel against.

[01:19:37] Nathan: So we spent the first whole portion of this talking about the creator economy and writing and YouTube thumbnails and, and all of that, and then, you know, you’re observing this change happen in the world around what used to have art and style and character and meaning and now is lost.

[01:19:54] How do you think of the interplay between those two worlds? Is that… Is the same thing happening in- Yeah … the content that we create?

[01:20:00] David: Yeah, man. Let me show you. This is slop. This is AI slop. This is the same thing as the Twitter thread you don’t like, is this elevator. There’s actually no difference, right?

[01:20:11] Mm-hmm. What do they both have in common? They’re optimized for efficiency, convenience. Um, there’s not a lot of the kind of work, the craftsmanship, the decoration that comes with it, and it’s kind of a copy and paste template that you can see. Where is this elevator? You don’t know. I, I have

[01:20:29] Nathan: no idea.

[01:20:29] David: You have no idea.

[01:20:30] It could be in San Francisco, could be in Bangkok, could be in Tokyo, could be in London, could be in Cape Town, South Africa. This is completely placeless design, right? And it’s super bland and generic and inoffensive. I would say that is the same thing that writing slop is. There’s no difference, right?

[01:20:46] Whereas if you look at this painting, which I love- Mm … this is the opposite of slop to me, okay? Mm-hmm. The, this woman- I don’t mean to infer too much, but let’s have some fun with this. This woman may very well be poorer than all the people who are going through this elevator at the office every day. This looks like a fairly ordinary woman.

[01:21:07] Um, you know, and what do you see? You see some color, you see some texture, you see the greens, the orange. Mm-hmm. Um, you see kind of different swirls and different shapes that are coming together. And this is the world that I wanna live in. Mm-hmm. This is an unpretentious world, but it’s a world of soul and character.

[01:21:25] It’s a world of place. We know that this is not in Japan. We know that this is not in South America. Mm-hmm. We know that this is not New York City. It’s probably somewhere between Turkey and, you know, maybe India or something like that. Mm-hmm. Right? There’s a real sense of place, placefulness to this. Mm-hmm.

[01:21:42] And I wanna live in this world. I wanna live in this world. And it’s the same thing when you read a piece of writing where you say, you know, the way that they write, it’s not fancy, but wow, I can feel their personality onto the page. I can feel that there’s a distinctiveness to it. I know that AI didn’t write this.

[01:22:02] I know they didn’t copy- Mm-hmm … and paste this. Didn’t necessarily labor over the words, but they write with voice, and they’re saying something both in what they say and the way that they say it. That’s what I see in that image, and it’s the same thing in writing as design.

[01:22:17] Nathan: Hmm. Yeah, and it’s just basically creating the world that you wanna live in.

[01:22:22] David: Yeah.

[01:22:23] Nathan: And that’s the thing that we all have this crazy gift that we’re able to do, where we can sit behind our, our computers or at our coffee shops and create something that impacts so many people.

[01:22:33] David: Mm-hmm.

[01:22:34] Nathan: What I’m curious about is where you take the show. Like, that’s… I, I feel like you’re, you’re now trying to play on another level.

[01:22:40] I w- Yeah … I watch you in your career, like, take these step functions, and this feels like a big one. W- what’s the goal? Where do you, where are you trying to take the show, and what are the obstacles in the way?

[01:22:49] David: Um, fundraising is a big obstacle. Fundraising’s a big obstacle. Um, b- To be honest, I don’t know. Um, I think I got a little bit too into long-term planning with Rite of Passage, and I’ve really tried to come back from that.

[01:23:07] Um, I almost got so obsessed with the long-term vision that I got away from the work that just needed to be done today. Mm-hmm. And I don’t have a long-term vision for the show, but I do know a few things. One, I know the story resonates with people. Yeah. ‘Cause I’ve seen the way that Sheehan is able to do it, and I’ve seen the look on people’s faces when they, when they get it.

[01:23:32] They’re like, “Wow, I’ve never really seen that before,” and, “Wow, that is everywhere. That is a problem.” So I’ve seen the look on people’s faces. I know it resonates. That’s the first thing. The second thing is I know that we can tell a good story. I talked about Sheehan. The director of that short film, his name is Tommy Lee.

[01:23:47] I adore Tommy. I, I just adore Tommy. He’s one of my best friends in the world, and Tommy’s so talented. And, like, if my job is to get Sheehan’s ideas and his way of communicating them with Tommy’s genius as a creator- Mm-hmm … with sound and with visuals, and my job is to just let them do their thing and then to just push them to be as good as they can be and then also to, like, work with them as we’re writing the scripts to say, “How do we make this as simple and clear as possible?”

[01:24:19] ‘Cause that’s what I do well. And I know that if we can take the ideas and we can produce something that’s really good, we can have something that really moves people. And if we can get there, then I’ll, like, take my head out of the water and think about what’s next.

[01:24:34] Nathan: Mm. And so right now you have the pilot done, and you’re fundraising for creating the first season?

[01:24:41] David: Yeah, uh-huh. So six episodes- Okay … about, uh, the major aesthetic styles of the last 800 years. Mm-hmm. So medieval, the Renaissance The Enlightenment, the 19th century, first half of the 20th century before the World Wars- Mm-hmm … and then after the World Wars. And what you realize is that the World Wars, um, destroyed our spirit in a very- Mm

[01:25:04] meaningful way. Um, you know, it’s one thing to learn about war through guns and through, and through airplanes and bombs and, you know, there’s great tragedy in that. That’s half the story. The other thing is, I talked about it earlier, style, art is the- Mm … external expression of the inner spirit of our time.

[01:25:23] And when you look at a building, when you look at lampposts, when you look at paintings- Mm … you see that something about the human spirit was just completely squandered. Because with World War I, we got mechanized murder. Mm-hmm. You know?

[01:25:38] Nathan: Right.

[01:25:38] David: And we murdered people by the tens of thousands, and afterwards we said, “What did we do to ourselves?

[01:25:45] We just committed s- we almost committed civilizational suicide.” Mm-hmm. And then we almost did it again. And so what we’ve had to do is we’ve had to… A lot of the quests that came out of both of those wars were reimagining what should humanity be, who are we, and I think a great loss of faith in the goodness of humanity and- Mm-hmm

[01:26:07] the why beauty is worth fighting for and striving for. Um, I did wanna say one more thing- Yeah … that is a very sort of practical thing that we’ve learned. So I talked about the six episodes, and- Presumably all those are about history, right? So talk about the Middle Ages. Um, but the series is called The Modern World, so we’re actually always talking about the present.

[01:26:35] So how does that make sense? So what we did is when we had these marathon sprints, we went through 160 pages of scripts, and we just… The three of us in person here in New York City, we just took out every single piece of jargon, but we developed a concept called braiding. And what we do is we never get too far away from the present.

[01:26:58] So a, what a lot of history, architecture, series, and books do is they’ll just talk your ear off about Gothic architecture just over and over and over again. But then you’re like, “Okay, cool. So I learned a lot about what happened in Northern England in 1488,” and, like, I’m making this up. Yeah. Like Beverly Cathedral, and, like, the way that the gargoyles and the spires related to each other, right?

[01:27:25] And you’re like, “Fine,” but I actually find that to be pretty boring. Mm-hmm. What’s far more interesting is to say, the core thing about the medieval times is that everything was handmade. Everything was N equals one.

[01:27:37] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[01:27:38] David: Now, look around you. What that’s around you is the only thing of that thing that has been made.

[01:27:45] Like my shirt, there’s tens of thousands of these. These shoes, there’s tens of thousands of these. Right. Right? Same with your shoes. Okay. Same with this carpet. Same with these cameras. Like- Mm-hmm … nothing around us, with the exception of these plants- Mm … are the only thing of that thing that’s ever been made.

[01:28:02] We live in mass production. We live- Right … in a copy and paste culture. The medieval time, everything was N equals one. Mm. Mass production wasn’t even a thing. And then what comes from that is the craftsman, now you think about workers. What do you think of? You think of the, the, the people at the iPhone factory who they have no individuality- At all.

[01:28:25] Or, I mean, I remember onto the Ford factory in Dearborn, Michigan, and the person’s just putting on the little plate on the F-150, the little plate on the F-150 over and over. They just gotta follow an SOP standard guidelines. Mm. Medieval times, the craftsmen were encouraged to put all their personality on the buildings.

[01:28:45] That was like, put your individuality on the building. Right. We do exactly the opposite. And sometimes it is only through contrast that you can see who we are. We are an age of convenience and efficiency and standardization. That is who we are as people, of mass production, the international style way of doing things.

[01:29:06] And once you look at the other culture, you see us clearly, and then what we do is we’re just always braiding the modern world with the past- Right … constantly showing contrast. Mm-hmm. And I think that that style, that way of speaking, will be one of our kind of trademark things that we do.

[01:29:24] Nathan: There are two ideas that I wanna conclude with.

[01:29:26] David: Cool.

[01:29:27] Nathan: The first one is using art and history to hone your, your sense of taste.

[01:29:32] David: Yes. ‘Cause

[01:29:32] Nathan: I think that’s something that-

[01:29:34] David: Oh, yeah …

[01:29:34] Nathan: you know, we start out and we’re like, you realize you don’t actually have taste. Not, not only do you have… You don’t not have something to say- Yeah … you also don’t have taste so well.

[01:29:42] Mm-hmm. So how do you think about that?

[01:29:44] David: So, um, I- Was not born with good taste. Oh my goodness. So what happened was when I was 23 or 24, I read Julia Cameron’s Artist’s Way. Mm. And there’s an idea in that book of doing an artist date. And what I did was every Thursday, I would go to a museum in New York or something of the sort.

[01:30:13] And what I realized, when you go to a museum, you’re basically seeing a lot of the best things that have ever been made. Okay, I’m gonna caveat that in a second. But you’re seeing the best things that have ever been made that have stood the test of time, and intuitively what you’re doing is you’re kind of working out what is quality and what’s shoddy, what’s quality and what’s shoddy.

[01:30:33] So for example, my ability to look at wood now- Mm-hmm … and tell what is, like, quality wood versus, like-

[01:30:40] Nathan: What’s mass-produced versus-

[01:30:41] David: Exactly … handmade and all that And, like, really just good wood has gotten a lot better. I don’t actually have the words to describe it, and I’m, like, nowhere near, like, a carpenter.

[01:30:49] Mm-hmm. But it’s gotten a lot better, and it’s been that for everything. And here’s the thing about humans: we’re really bad… I learned this from Amor Towles. We’re really bad at knowing in the moment what is good. We’re really bad at it. So, like, if you were to look at the top 10 books, top 10 songs, it doesn’t really correlate that well with actually, like, really what is good and quality, but we’re very good at discarding crap over decades.

[01:31:22] Mm. We’re incredibly good at that. So, like, things that have stood the test of time, 100, 150 years- Mm … there’s a reason why. It tends to be pretty good. So that is, like, a core human skill that we have. Now, at the same time, you talk about cultivating taste- One of the most important things that you need to be able to do as a creator, as a consumer, is to criticize things that other people deemed really good- Mm

[01:31:57] and to say, “I think that’s crap.” And you go to a museum, and your kind of default assumption is, everything here is absolutely amazing- … perfect, and, like, the best thing ever made.

[01:32:08] Nathan: A curator said it is, so.

[01:32:10] David: And it is so important to just be like, “I think that sucks. I think that’s no good. That is just a bad painting.

[01:32:17] That is a bad painting. I don’t like it at all. It offends me.” And so what I like to do is, when I go to a museum, is I like to leave by just asking what I ab- what did I absolutely love, what did I absolutely hate, and just take photos of both of those. Mm. And those visceral reactions, if you’re just over and over again, um, whether you’re wanting to play really good music, whether you’re wanting to write really well, whether you just wanna be a better interior designer for your house, paying very close attention to what I love and what I hate, and giving yourself the permission to despise things, to think that things that are popular absolutely suck, um, I think really elevates your sense of taste.

[01:33:01] Mm.

[01:33:02] Nathan: I love that. I’m gonna spend more time not just curating the things that I love, but also the ones that I hate, and why.

[01:33:09] David: And the other thing, that is different from being a hater. Mm. I think being a hater, you’re just belittling the thing. This sucks or whatever. You’re making fun of it. Um, a true critic can work out why they don’t like something.

[01:33:22] Mm-hmm. And once you’re in real specificity, I don’t think you’re being a hater.

[01:33:26] Nathan: Yeah. I like that.

[01:33:28] David: Yeah.

[01:33:28] Nathan: Okay, the final thing. Yeah. If you had the ear of thousands of top creators-

[01:33:33] David: Yeah …

[01:33:34] Nathan: and you wanted to have, like, a call to arms, a message of, like, how you want them to show up in the world, and to create a future that’s different than the elevator, the AI slop, the, all of that, what would you say?

[01:33:48] How do you want people to change what they’re creating?

[01:33:51] David: I want you to pay really close attention to what stirs your soul, and I want you to go create that.

[01:33:56] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[01:33:59] David: That’s all I have to say. Now, I’m gonna caveat that with being a creator’s really tough. Mm-hmm. And I made a documentary about a musician named Porter Robinson a few years ago, and I never published it.

[01:34:14] I just made it for myself. It was about an hour 20 minutes long, and I wa- watched every interview, and I ended up with a very important thesis, which was Porter got to a place in his music where he could make whatever he wanted, and actually, what I said there, he has a line that says, “The work that stirred your soul, you can make for someone else.”

[01:34:38] And that really resonated with me. But what he did was he started with remixes, and he made a lot of stuff that was pretty common and popular because he needed to ride the current to get to a place- Mm … where later on he could make the thing that he really wanted to create. And I do think that sometimes you gotta hustle.

[01:35:01] Sometimes you gotta ride the currents. Um, but what good is it to gain the whole world but forfeit your soul in the process? It’s one of the best lines in the Gospel, and do not do that as a creator- Mm … long-term. So, um, you wanna fight that every single day, but I do have sympathy for how hard it is at the beginning, and, um, that’s my one caveat there.

[01:35:28] Nathan: Create things that stir your soul.

[01:35:31] David: Yeah. Pay attention to what stirs your soul, and then put that back in the world.

[01:35:34] Nathan: Yeah. Okay, if you’ve enjoyed this and you’re like, “I want more David Perell in my life”-

[01:35:39] David: Yeah … where

[01:35:40] Nathan: do I go?

[01:35:40] David: So I have worked on this series, The Modern World. Our pilot episode is called How Did the World Get So Ugly?

[01:35:46] You’ll see a video of escalators, and then it says what changed on YouTube in the thumbnail. Watch that. I’m really proud of it. I co-wrote it. I produced it. And I also have the show How I Write, and if you’re looking for something deep and soulful, listen to the interview with the poet Dana Gioia. If you’re looking for something really practical, listen to the interview with Susan Orlean.

[01:36:07] And if you’re looking for something that is just, like, kinda whimsical and someone who really observe, observes the world well, listen to the interview with either Elif Shafak or Robert Macfarlane.

[01:36:18] Nathan: Mm. Amazing.

[01:36:20] David: David- Thanks, man.

[01:36:21] Nathan: Thank you

[01:36:21] so

[01:36:22] much for

[01:36:22] coming

[01:36:22] on.

[01:36:22] David: This was really fun. Thank you.

[01:36:25] Nathan: If you enjoyed this episode, another great one to check out is my episode with Ryan Holiday.

[01:36:30] We also discussed the topic of tying timeless ideas to what’s happening right now, and how one piece of writing becomes a whole library that compounds over time, which is exactly the kind of leverage that David was talking about. Like the video if you enjoyed it, hit subscribe on YouTube or wherever you’re listening, and I’ll see you next week.

[00:00:00] Nathan: This is the most unique episode I’ve ever done on this podcast. I brought in my speaking coach, Mike Paquione, back on the show to roast the keynote that I gave at Craft & Commerce.

[00:00:09] Mike: Wait, why did you have that big pause at the

[00:00:11] Nathan: end? I’m not sure. Okay. Okay.

[00:00:12] Mike: A lot of people fall into the trap of both hands have to do the same thing.

[00:00:18] Nathan: In this episode, Mike doesn’t hold back.

[00:00:21] Mike: This is actually a little bit of a miss. It doesn’t end up mattering, but

[00:00:27] Nathan: Seeing a talk critiqued in real time with commentary from an expert coach will help you learn what makes a great talk in a whole new way.

[00:00:34] Mike: Your instinct is to make a story here too, but it’s like you can only have so many stories.

[00:00:37] I want the audience to forget that it’s a speech.

[00:00:40] Nathan: Little things like the Stephen Colbert move, where you show the joke on the slide, but you don’t say it out loud. The moment I was like, “Oh, maybe this will get a laugh,” and then it didn’t. You also get to hear about some of the chaos happening backstage that nobody knows about.

[00:00:52] They have their hand out, and they are stopping me from going on stage. So join me for this behind-the-scenes look at the biggest keynote I’ve ever delivered

[00:01:03] Mike: It is usually the Nathan Barry Show, and that is where you find this on your podcast feed. However, we changed this up a little bit this time. Nathan just yesterday did his annual keynote releasing products at Craft and Commerce, and we’re gonna break this down.

[00:01:18] But whereas it’s always the Nathan Barry Show, today It’s the Mike Pacchione Show. That’s right. So we’re gonna talk about what was good, what looked good to other people and secretly was less good.

[00:01:30] Nathan: A little chaos.

[00:01:30] Mike: Yeah. A little chaos. I’ve had the privilege of coaching Nathan. This is the eighth time- Yeah

[00:01:36] for these keynotes, and I’ve just seen such an improvement, so

[00:01:39] Nathan: we’re gonna break it down.

[00:01:40] Mike: Let’s, uh, let’s start right here. Of our very special announcement. Got Haley on the screen. You’re, I don’t know, 10 seconds from coming out. And we have never done anything quite like this before, so please welcome to the stage my friend, our CEO, Nathan Barry.

[00:01:57] Nathan: So there’s applause. There’s Nathan. No me.

[00:02:00] Mike: We’re just like- Oh, there we go You notice Haley’s, like, little, like…

[00:02:04] Nathan: Good luck. Did you hear her “Good luck”?

[00:02:07] Mike: Yeah. So there’s- Amazing, because as an audience member, everybody thought she was being funny. Secretly, she’s… Or are you telling me actually she’s like, “Good luck”?

[00:02:16] Nathan: Well, I think there’s a couple things. She got, I mean, she managed to get an audience laugh even before I come out, which is great for setting the tone. Um, but the chaos is going b- on behind the scenes. The reason is she intros me, and I don’t come out. Which is, as an emcee, that has to be your worst nightmare.

[00:02:31] Mike: Again, uh, um, uh, also, oh, something I should have mentioned earlier.

[00:02:35] Nathan: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. So we’re doing a live stream of the event. And so there’s, like, 3,000 people registered to watch the live stream of this keynote. But the previous speaker ends, like, eight minutes early- … without people realizing. Like, there’s just this chaos.

[00:02:52] Like, we- he’s about 90 seconds from ending when people realize, “Oh, he is about to end.” And it’s way early, and we’re, we’re ahead of schedule, and we’re never, like-

[00:03:01] Mike: Nobody in any event is ahe- ahead of schedule ever

[00:03:05] Nathan: But we are. So what happens is two things happen at the same time. First, we’re ahead of schedule, and then second, right as we’re trying to, about to go live, the internet and the live stream start to go out.

[00:03:17] And so everybody, they’re all in their headsets, the whole AV crew. Our AV crew is incredible for this event. But they, they’re all like, “Stall, stall.” And so on the speaker monitors in front of Haley, they put in the notes, like, below her intro, like, “Stall.”

[00:03:30] Mike: Oh my gosh, stop.

[00:03:31] Nathan: Which she does, I think, kind of. Maybe she adds 45 seconds.

[00:03:36] And so then I’m backstage, and there’s someone right there who’s, like, helping with the curtain, being like, “Okay, wait, yeah, now you go.” And they’re like, they have their hand out, and they are stopping me from going on stage. And it’s this really nice woman who I don’t wanna, like, just push past, you know?

[00:03:52] And they’re like, “You gotta stall. Like, you can’t go out yet,” and all that. And I’m like, “I’m not gonna leave Haley, like, just hanging out on the stage waiting.” You know, I’m like, “This is way better if I go out.” Anyway, so I go out. No music right? Which we rehearsed- Oh

[00:04:06] Mike: my gosh, that is why. ‘Cause we did a whole th- the night before you’re like, “Hey- Can you come up with a joke for me?

[00:04:12] Nathan: Yep.

[00:04:13] Mike: Which I outsourced to Katie Day, and I think she came up with something good. And

[00:04:17] Nathan: I think it would’ve done well. I was gonna do a slightly different version of it. Just to, well, to tell that story too, because I think it’s funny. Oh. So I always walk out to a Taylor Swift song. W- the team chose Wildest Dreams, but the section that they chose is, the line goes, “He’s so tall and handsome as hell,” something something.

[00:04:34] Right? And I, and I come out there. And so Steph on our team is like, “That is heard very clearly. I think you have to at least say a like, ‘Oh thanks, Taylor,’ you know, something to reference it.” And so we’re like trying to workshop a joke, and it’s like okay, if we can get a first laugh right here, that’s fantastic.

[00:04:50] Like years ago, I think it was the very first Craft in Commerce, I didn’t realize… They kept asking me, like, “Pick a walkout song.” I’m like, “I don’t, I don’t know.” And so total surprise to me, I walked out to Shake It Off by Taylor Swift. Thanks, uh, Barrett and Alexis, for choosing that one. Wait, like

[00:05:05] Mike: backstage they just, it was like, ”

[00:05:06] Nathan: We’re gonna play this song”?

[00:05:07] They knew. They just didn’t tell me.

[00:05:08] Mike: Oh, okay, okay, okay.

[00:05:08] Nathan: Uh, and, ’cause they were like, “Oh, if you can’t be bothered to pick a song, then like we’re gonna pick a song.”

[00:05:14] Mike: Barrett has to turn it into a lesson, of course.

[00:05:16] Nathan: Yeah. Yes, exactly. And so, but I walked out and the crowd was super welcoming and all of that. And so I just said, “It seems like you all are just as excited as I am that Taylor Swift is back on Spotify.”

[00:05:28] Which got like a great laugh.

[00:05:30] Mike: That’s gotta be tough, yeah.

[00:05:30] Nathan: And so it was like, okay, we gotta have a similar moment. And so what I was going to say, settle on, is something like, “Thanks, Taylor. I mean, I’m tall, but I’m not that tall.” And, um, you know, leave the handsome as hell part alone.

[00:05:44] Mike: Ah.

[00:05:45] Nathan: Um, but that didn’t even happen.

[00:05:47] And so I walked out, and now I’m like, “I still have to stall.” So the next like 45 seconds of the video is me just stalling before I start to talk.

[00:05:56] Mike: Good morning, everybody. I wondered. It’s so good to see a totally packed house. This is awesome.

[00:06:03] Nathan: This is just stalling. Where are my

[00:06:04] Mike: slides? Where are my slides? I see so many faces

[00:06:05] Nathan: that have come- Oh, there’s no speaker notes up.

[00:06:07] There’s so many events that we’ve done. There’s no

[00:06:08] Mike: slides.

[00:06:09] Nathan: Um. Like, so even if I wanted to start, I couldn’t. … check out.

[00:06:14] Mike: You see I look down at the, the- Should

[00:06:15] Nathan: we dive in? Let’s do this.

[00:06:17] Mike: Oh, look, look how dramatic I’m being, ’cause I’m comfortable.

[00:06:21] Nathan: You ever have those emails that you write-

[00:06:23] Mike: Okay, you can pause it.

[00:06:23] Okay, actually, I, here’s, here’s, uh, I don’t want this to be Mike teaching, but I will do that here.

[00:06:28] Nathan: Do it. ‘

[00:06:29] Mike: Cause I was, I was thinking about th- there’s something that happened … Oh, you know what it was, it’s because you all, and I mean this nicely, are … Every year there’s like … I think that’ll be done in time to talk about.

[00:06:44] Nathan: Yes.

[00:06:45] Mike: And so what our, our cycle of working together is usually loosely like 10 days to two weeks before, I get a, a Loom that’s you just saying, “I know this is crappy-

[00:06:57] Nathan: Yeah …

[00:06:57] Mike: help me figure out what’s good in this.” Yes. And then, uh, th- within seven days there’s like, “Here’s an actual, we’ll talk about this,” and, “What do you think of this?”

[00:07:06] and, “What do you think of this?” ‘

[00:07:07] Nathan: Cause the weird thing is most speakers, you work with them, like for a period of time. They nail it, they develop a talk- Yeah … it’s tied to the book. They do it for three years straight.

[00:07:15] Mike: Yeah.

[00:07:15] Nathan: Whereas when you and I work together, we’re writing a new talk every time.

[00:07:18] Mike: Right, a new talk every time, and there’s no chance that you have three weeks to rehearse it.

[00:07:22] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:07:23] Mike: So I think we met on Friday, you’re delivering this Wednesday, and I think it was Monday, you’re like, “Yeah, this is like 75% new.” Like, like most of it has changed since we talked.

[00:07:32] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:07:33] Mike: Which- You know, to each their own, but it’s not, it’s not what I would say is, like, the advisable thing

[00:07:40] Nathan: Ideal conditions.

[00:07:42] Mike: And what I was thinking about that I think is helpful for people to hear, so, uh, there’s this Canadian astronaut, um, why am I blanking on his name? Chris something. First Canadian astronaut in outer space, and I read his book, which is really good, even though I don’t remember his last name, and he’s got this concept in there that he’s applying to jobs, but it also applies to speeches.

[00:08:01] The concept is be a zero. And he says, “Okay, when you’re starting a new job, you can be a negative one, a zero, or a plus one.” And obviously nobody wants to be a negative one. Everybody wants to be a plus one. So what most people do is they try to impress immediately, but then they wind up, like, skipping steps, and in trying to be a plus one, they actually become a minus one.

[00:08:21] So I think the same thing is true for speeches. I, I also think you can be, like, a minus two with a speech. So his whole thing is, like, aim to be a zero. Like, just aim to get the job done. I think for anybody who, uh, whatever the chaos you feel is, the slides didn’t work, the live stream hasn’t started because Simon was unnecessarily concise.

[00:08:41] Like, whatever that is, in that moment, you need to lose the, the drive for perfectionism- Mm … to be perfect. Just be a zero. Like, be okay with being… Zero doesn’t mean bad.

[00:08:53] Nathan: Right.

[00:08:53] Mike: It just means, like, at least be good, and let’s not turn this into a disaster because Nathan can’t fake being calm. You know? Like-

[00:09:04] Nathan: Well, what’s interesting is it ended up being a reset moment for me-

[00:09:07] Mike: Mm

[00:09:07] Nathan: where I came out, and it was like, instead of being freaked out about how, like, 10 seconds earlier someone was telling me, like, “No, you can’t go out yet,” and I’m like, “No, I’m going to.” Yeah, yeah. You know, people are like, “Stall,” and you know, it’s chaos backstage. And I know that the live stream isn’t working, and I know all of this stuff.

[00:09:22] But instead, like, you know, of like, okay, if I can stall even for 45 seconds or something, it was like this reset moment for me. And so hopefully it came across to the audience of like, wow. It, it’s like you just come out and, like, the, to your point of being a zero, you’re just like, “I’m here. I’m there. Like, I’m present with all of you.”

[00:09:38] Mike: I had no idea. And, like, the- I guess this wouldn’t be negative one, but maybe negative half-

[00:09:44] Nathan: Mm-hmm …

[00:09:45] Mike: would’ve been, “Hey, who knows how to pronounce Boise? Who flew in here from the furthest away?” Right. Like, stuff like that.

[00:09:50] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:09:52] Mike: Doesn’t sink the speech, but it kind of tells the audience, like, “Hey, you got a cliche coming.”

[00:09:56] Nathan: Okay, there’s another cliche that I’m curious how it landed for you. We talked about this a little bit, um, on one of our calls. Y- people always say, like, “Oh, this is Nathan’s Steve Jobs moment.”

[00:10:06] Mike: Yeah.

[00:10:07] Nathan: Right? And, like, does he have the sneakers and the turtleneck? ‘Cause you know. And I realized that I was falling into, like, presenter voice- Yeah

[00:10:16] and all of that, and I was really trying to get out of that. And I think the thing that I said to you and Katie on one of our calls was like, “Okay, help me get into, like … Like, what I wanna convey is just your friend Nathan-” Yeah … “he’s a creator. He has written some books like you have. He built a software company for you, and he’s j- he just kind of wants to sit o- like, sit across from you at the coffee table and be like, ‘Hey, here’s the things that I made.'”

[00:10:41] Yeah, yeah, yeah. “I’d love to show it to you,” versus, “And today,” you know- Yeah … or, like, whatever else.

[00:10:45] Mike: We are pleased to announce three new products. Yeah.

[00:10:48] Nathan: Yeah, exactly. But in rehearsal, I kept slipping into- Mm … like, speaker voice.

[00:10:54] Mike: Speaker guy, yeah.

[00:10:55] Nathan: Yeah. How did it, how did it land in the, in the talk?

[00:11:00] Mike: I, I can, I can see a little of what you’re saying with the opening story.

[00:11:05] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:11:06] Mike: So I think, I think the opening story is … No, I’m gonna do … The opening story is two different parts. So there’s the, there’s the- Do you wanna just play it? Yeah, let’s, let’s play it.

[00:11:16] Nathan: Important enough that you write them a week in advance and you have time to tweak and edit each little detail. See, this part feels a little speaker guy.

[00:11:24] But they’re so important- Yeah … that you don’t dare schedule it, because you have to be the one to hit send yourself. But when it actually comes time to hit send, it’s not just a matter of like, “Oh, it’s 10:00 AM. Let’s go hit, hit send.”

[00:11:37] Mike: Yeah, that’s less speaker guy there.

[00:11:37] Nathan: Then you go to

[00:11:38] Mike: it. Like, that’s

[00:11:38] Nathan: good.

[00:11:38] You hover over the send button, and you think and you wait, and it’s like this nervous moment.

[00:11:48] ‘Cause you have no idea what the response is gonna

[00:11:49] Mike: be Wait, why did you have that big pause there? That’s just I don’t know what to say?

[00:11:52] Nathan: In 2012,

[00:11:53] Mike: I- I’m not sure … wrote a marketing book. Okay. And it changed my life. I was trying to play up

[00:11:56] Nathan: the, like- It was the

[00:11:56] Mike: launch- Yeah … you

[00:11:57] Nathan: don’t know what’s gonna happen

[00:11:57] of my book, The App Design Handbook, and it went out to my entire email list.

[00:12:02] Mike: This part gets a lot better, and there’s something that I love that you do up here.

[00:12:04] Nathan: Of 798 people.

[00:12:06] Mike: 798, is that what you- Yeah … you see that?

[00:12:08] Nathan: But that stress

[00:12:08] Mike: is still there. So this specific number is fantastic.

[00:12:11] Nathan: So I hit send. It’s

[00:12:12] Mike: true.

[00:12:12] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:12:12] Mike: That was the, that was the exact number.

[00:12:14] Nathan: And there were two questions on my mind: first, was anyone gonna buy? And second, if I was lucky enough that one of those 798 people was going to buy, how long am I gonna have to wait? I thought you were gonna

[00:12:25] Mike: wait an eternity.

[00:12:27] Nathan: Well, the answer is just three. Okay, pause it

[00:12:30] Mike: for a second.

[00:12:30] What do you mean,

[00:12:32] Nathan: uh, like-

[00:12:33] Mike: I thought-

[00:12:35] Nathan: Like I have to wait

[00:12:35] Mike: a long- … you have 798 people on the list. Like, not everybody’s on their email every hour of the day- Right … let alone, like, “Cool, I’ll buy this for 179.”

[00:12:43] Nathan: Right.

[00:12:43] Mike: I thought this was gonna be like Nathan and- So yeah, it

[00:12:45] Nathan: was building up to, like, I had to wait four hours or- Yeah

[00:12:48] 90 minutes or whatever, and it was three.

[00:12:50] Mike: Yeah.

[00:12:51] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:12:52] Mike: I don’t know if that’s bad or good, but, uh, it was interesting. It was

[00:12:55] Nathan: interesting. I mean, you know, in the other episode we were talking about tension.

[00:12:58] Mike: Yeah.

[00:12:58] Nathan: Right? I was trying to build a little bit of tension. Yeah. But then I, I don’t know, maybe it released it immediately or…

[00:13:03] Mike: The number of minutes was three. It’s… Well, okay, listen, I can wordsmith it a little bit. So I think, I… Yeah, here’s what you could do. You, we could, we could go in your brain even a little bit more, which is, like, 798 people. Okay, well, I don’t know if everybody’s in America, so… And I’m in Boise and it’s 3:00, so a lot of people are out of work.

[00:13:22] Nathan: Right, like, run through that.

[00:13:23] Mike: I might be… I didn’t know it, but three minutes later my life was gonna change.

[00:13:27] Nathan: Yeah. Yeah, I like that. The downside of these talks is that I never know him again. Yeah.

[00:13:33] Mike: All right.

[00:13:33] Nathan: The first sale came in, and it was for $179 for the full package that honestly I didn’t think anyone would buy.

[00:13:40] I just did it as, like, a decoy price thing so that the cheaper package- That’s

[00:13:43] Mike: so good … looked

[00:13:44] Nathan: like a better deal. The decoy

[00:13:44] Mike: price thing.

[00:13:45] Nathan: Uh, but that was the first sale. That was just all I

[00:13:46] Mike: lived.

[00:13:47] Nathan: I was so ecstatic, but then I looked at who purchased And it was a designer at 37signals, the legendary product firm.

[00:13:57] Now, first I’d followed this company and everything they’d built, and I used their product- This is so good … and I’m obsessed with them. But second, I had actually applied to work here a year earlier and did not get the job. Which in hindsight, I think it worked out better that I didn’t get the job, but, um-

[00:14:12] Mike: Yeah, unnecessary

[00:14:13] I had

[00:14:13] Nathan: no idea

[00:14:13] Mike: that someone from 37signals- Okay. I mean, it’s not a big deal, but yeah …

[00:14:16] Nathan: would be the one to

[00:14:16] Mike: taught me those 700 emails Right, but, yeah. No, the, the script did not have that in there, and I-

[00:14:18] Nathan: Made it onto the list. But those sales kept rolling in. So first it was $12,000 in the first day, and then $19,000 in the first week.

[00:14:27] Mike: I kinda loved that it was

[00:14:28] Nathan: double zeros. But there’s something else that surprised me about this. Mm.

[00:14:29] Mike: Before the, whatever

[00:14:30] Nathan: the first price was. It was 2012 when everyone was talking about social media, Twitter, Instagram, Facebook, right? That’s where all the growth and everything was happening. But when I looked at the numbers and the attribution, email sold more than every other channel combined.

[00:14:43] Mike: Okay, let me ask you a question here, ’cause in the version that I saw, you had- There’s two

[00:14:48] Nathan: more slides

[00:14:48] Mike: there. Well, no, in the version I saw, though, you had coffee with your friend Ron. Uh-huh. And he tells you, like, “Yeah, man. People who know this stuff know email’s better than Twitter.”

[00:14:57] Nathan: Yep.

[00:14:58] Mike: Is that cut for time?

[00:15:00] Is it cut ’cause you felt like people knew that already? Like, what-

[00:15:02] Nathan: Uh, mostly cut for time. Yeah. And so I did two run-throughs in, it’s on my farm, right? I have a guest house, and, uh, which you’re actually gonna stay in one of my guest houses in a couple of days. And so our whole growth leadership team is staying in, uh, the house next door.

[00:15:17] And so at, like, 11:00 PM the night before, we’ve got designers, we’ve got marketers, we’ve got, you know, we’re, like, staying there and doing these run-throughs. And we just cut everything that we felt like didn’t add to the story.

[00:15:29] Mike: Okay.

[00:15:29] Nathan: And that one was, like, not necessary.

[00:15:31] Mike: Yeah. It wasn’t a bad story.

[00:15:34] Nathan: It was just like, is this essential?

[00:15:35] Mike: Yeah.

[00:15:36] Nathan: And we cut it. Now, the ironic thing is then as I’m ad-libbing, as I’m trying to not read the speaker notes- Yeah … I then end up adding some other things.

[00:15:46] Mike: But … But this is what happens when you don’t get to rehearse for three straight weeks.

[00:15:49] Nathan: Yeah, exactly. You

[00:15:50] Mike: know? Yeah. And that kicked off an obsession

[00:15:52] Nathan: with email best practices that eventually became- In hindsight, I

[00:15:54] Mike: would’ve done a different

[00:15:55] Nathan: graphic here

[00:15:56] Kit. Over the years, we’ve built it into a platform- Hmm. I would’ve done something about Kit … that now

[00:15:58] Mike: serves over 100,000 creators and entrepreneurs- Or, like, obsession with email, and then done all the- … to

[00:16:01] Nathan: turn their audience into a

[00:16:02] Mike: thriving business. But I thought of it way too late. Yeah.

[00:16:04] Nathan: And the model that we built Kit around

[00:16:05] Mike: is one where- Okay.

[00:16:06] So we’re gonna talk about the slides now. The slides are stupendous … the way a funnel works is you put attention in one end. My goodness.

[00:16:10] Nathan: And so that’s views, followers, traffic, and then revenue comes out the other end.

[00:16:14] Mike: Yeah, this is, uh, Charlie, our

[00:16:15] Nathan: creative director-

[00:16:16] Mike: Oh my gosh … who made this graphic. And this

[00:16:17] Nathan: applies to great content just as much as it does

[00:16:18] Mike: to conversion rates, click-through rates- Well, this is, like, the stuff that I always want to happen and have mostly given up.

[00:16:22] Like, there’s never, there never winds up being enough time to do things like this. Right. That user makes you $50 as a creator. But, like, that visual- I’m pretty sure that if that same user came from YouTube- First of all, like, higher perceived value ’cause of good design anyway, but, like, it illustrates exactly what you’re saying out loud.

[00:16:33] So even if you were screwing up- When you just look at the list of followers- But I don’t know what Nathan’s talking about, but that-

[00:16:37] Nathan: I understand it …

[00:16:37] Mike: yeah …

[00:16:38] Nathan: as a number. Because behind every email address is a person. Think of a stadium. 50,000 people. And at first glance, it’s just a crowd. You can see me smirk as I- Everybody blurs together.

[00:16:51] Mike: As the …

[00:16:52] Nathan: But if you were to focus on only one fan … Oh. Sorry, not like that. More like this. All right. Let’s pause

[00:16:59] Mike: that. Let’s pause that. ‘Cause I know that, that there was a … People didn’t want you to have the Coldplay thing.

[00:17:05] Nathan: I put that, I wrote in Slack, like, “Can I make this joke?” And the consensus was, “No, don’t make it.”

[00:17:12] But then Katie came back and was like, “I actually like the joke.” And we went back, and you were like, “I like the joke, too.”

[00:17:18] Mike: I think it’s … Yeah, it’s just such a good example of … That it’s … What it … That only works because it was so popular, and you don’t have to talk about it.

[00:17:25] Nathan: Right. ‘Cause if I had explained the joke- Yeah

[00:17:27] or anything else, it’s like- No,

[00:17:27] Mike: back, uh, last summer, and you might recall that … Yeah. No, no, no. Uh-uh. Visual is the joke. And then you did a great job of playing off it, and then we move along quickly. ‘Cause the reason why people didn’t wanna do it, ’cause they said, “But that’s not actually what you want.” Like, you-

[00:17:40] Nathan: It’s a negative example- Yeah

[00:17:42] of spotlighting. Yeah. Right. Yeah. We, we’re trying to spotlight subscribers- Yeah … so that you create this great experience for them and, and whatever else. And here’s a, a very negative example.

[00:17:50] Mike: Yeah. Um- So then going immediately over to

[00:17:54] Nathan: Taylor Swift. Taylor’s girlfriend. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I almo- … An earlier version, I w- almost explained this whole thing.

[00:18:01] Like-

[00:18:01] Mike: Yeah …

[00:18:02] Nathan: right? And so, you know, in the tour, she gives a hat at the end of the song, and it’s always, and sometimes it’s Kobe Bryant’s daughter or somebody. It’s al- it’s always a kid that she gives this hat to. Or I was, like, trying to play a video of it. Yeah, yeah,

[00:18:13] Mike: yeah.

[00:18:13] Nathan: And again, in all of this, it was like, you don’t need any of that.

[00:18:15] Mike: Yeah. Uh-

[00:18:16] Nathan: Like, if some- … Generally, like worst case, someone sees a fan being spotlight, or like any- a personalized experience for one fan. The Taylor Swift fans who have watched the documentary and all that know- Yeah … all of the backstory, and that can just be for them.

[00:18:29] Mike: Yeah.

[00:18:29] Nathan: Well- And so that was another thing where I, like, cut.

[00:18:31] It was, like, another 30 seconds, and it was like, “Oh, I’m actually not even gonna comment on

[00:18:33] Mike: that.” That … I mean, but that is, that is maturity. That is the courage to press delete. I mean, cur- I mean, it’s not storming the beaches of Normandy. Yeah. But I’m just saying, like, an insecure presenter is like, “No, no, I gotta explain this one.

[00:18:45] I have to be talking all the time.” And just being able to say, “Nope, this’ll do the job,” is awesome. Yeah.

[00:18:49] Nathan: Um, the other thing is Stephen Colbert is the word.

[00:18:53] Mike: Yeah.

[00:18:53] Nathan: Where the jokes are on the slide. You don’t have to deliver them. All I had to do was be like, “Oops, not like that.”

[00:18:57] Mike: Yes.

[00:18:58] Nathan: Uh-huh. And I … Something being up on screen for one second was enough to get a laugh that I was really happy with.

[00:19:04] Mike: Yeah. That is a great, uh, effort to laughter ratio.

[00:19:08] Nathan: Yeah, exactly. And it’s totally stress-free. I was slightly nervous that someone would be like, “That was tasteless,” or whatever. But, like, I think that it, it went well.

[00:19:18] Mike: I don’t know. I just think that’s funny.

[00:19:20] Nathan: Yeah. Focus on any one fan and spotlight them and give them a personal experience.

[00:19:25] Yeah,

[00:19:26] Mike: the people are

[00:19:26] Nathan: still laughing. That would be really special Because in that stadium, every single person-

[00:19:31] Mike: Is there any reason why

[00:19:32] Nathan: you’re holding onto her? Is it just

[00:19:32] Mike: random? … they have a

[00:19:33] Nathan: whole life. They have their own story, and they have their own- No, it’s random … reasons for being there. John Koenig has a word for this.

[00:19:40] Mike: I love

[00:19:40] Nathan: things like this. He’s called it sonder. And sonder is the realization that every person- This is the story that we originally built the talk around. Ah. Like, this quote- …

[00:19:48] Mike: as your own …

[00:19:49] Nathan: Steph on our marketing team found out that, like- Think about that … I suggested it, and she was like, “I was thinking about the exact same thing.”

[00:19:54] And so we were like, “Okay, this is…” You thought, you both thought about sonder? But remember the first 10 people who

[00:19:59] Mike: signed

[00:19:59] Nathan: up for my email list.

[00:20:00] Mike: Literally had two people heard that word before. Many of them didn’t

[00:20:02] Nathan: know me. I mean, you have

[00:20:04] Mike: to be

[00:20:04] Nathan: obsessed with a

[00:20:05] Mike: specific

[00:20:05] Nathan: YouTube

[00:20:06] Mike: channel. Like, heard it in the

[00:20:06] Nathan: past.

[00:20:07] But I knew why. And I had, uh, you know, I knew what they were working on. I totally

[00:20:11] Mike: lost the script right there.

[00:20:12] Nathan: Like, my brother-in-law, Philip, he was early in, in his design career, and so when I was writing to him and when I was writing my second book, I could directly write that to him because I knew it’d be useful to him.

[00:20:22] Mike: I think I just said “to him” four times.

[00:20:24] Nathan: At 100 subscribers, you can keep that kind of connection.

[00:20:26] Mike: Also, more great animation from Charlie.

[00:20:28] Nathan: It’s hard at 10,000 subscribers. Yeah, that…

[00:20:30] Mike: Oh, gosh, it’s so good.

[00:20:32] Nathan: At 50,000 subscribers, that feeling is nearly-

[00:20:35] Mike: How long did these slide, like, this, this slide take? Do you have any idea?

[00:20:38] Nathan: The individuals- To make? Yeah … who are lost in the crowd and they are just stats, like- Well, that’s Claude Design.

[00:20:41] Mike: So the- But is that, like- …

[00:20:43] Nathan: click-through rates.

[00:20:44] Mike: Uh, I don’t know. She’s probably an hour into those three slides. Okay. I think.

[00:20:48] Nathan: I just, I couldn’t see them anymore. To

[00:20:49] Mike: get the actual count of 50,000 and all

[00:20:50] Nathan: that.

[00:20:50] But that’s AI design helping out

[00:20:52] Mike: a lot. And so I started to ask myself- Oh, I love

[00:20:53] Nathan: this … I’m sitting in the backseat, and my dad’s driving, and my mom’s in the front seat. And my mom has… This is me, by the way, if you weren’t sure which one. Um, I wasn’t sure-

[00:21:04] Mike: It was needed to point out who it

[00:21:05] Nathan: was … I wasn’t sure if that was needed or…

[00:21:08] What I thought about doing is in the slide-

[00:21:11] Mike: Yeah, yeah …

[00:21:11] Nathan: having it say. Yeah, yeah. And then, and I was like, “Whatever, it’s not that, it’s not important.” And then in the moment, I was like, “Oh, maybe this will get a laugh,” and then it didn’t. Or, you know, it got a chuckle. Yeah. And it’s like, okay. So it didn’t, it didn’t add or take away, but it was one of those things where I ad-libbed it and I was like, “I didn’t need to.”

[00:21:25] Mike: I definitely didn’t know which one was you.

[00:21:27] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:21:27] Mike: You could have, if you wanted to just do, like, running Taylor Swift jokes, you could have been… But this is where it gets weird, because I wanna be like, you could put Taylor’s future husband, but like, it’s not… You’re happily married. Yeah, you know what I mean?

[00:21:38] Yeah, yeah. Like, I just don’t know how far you wanna take that. But to answer your question, I think everybody wondered who you were.

[00:21:43] Nathan: Okay, great. So I, I answered the question, so. I think, I think, uh,

[00:21:46] Mike: for ad libs like that, the, by the way, this is me being perfectionist, right? Yeah. But you don’t need by the way.

[00:21:52] Hmm. Or you just say- That one’s me.

[00:21:55] Nathan: Yeah. And my mom has the church directory out, and she is quizzing my dad on the names and families in the church. This is

[00:22:01] Mike: a great way to illustrate this

[00:22:02] Nathan: point. And it’s just a weird thing, like, why are, of all the things to memorize, why are you memorizing that? So I asked my dad, like, “What, what are you doing?”

[00:22:09] And he just said, “It’s hard to love and serve people you don’t know.” And my whole mission is to serve my audience

[00:22:17] Mike: And it’s, it’s great. Like, we can picture that whole thing happening

[00:22:20] Nathan: Mm-hmm. Turns out I wasn’t the only one who said

[00:22:22] Mike: it with that question. Yeah. We can picture that whole thing. There might be something even better if you gave the name of someone.

[00:22:30] But it has to be a real name. Like, it can’t be like-

[00:22:31] Nathan: Yeah …

[00:22:32] Mike: Smith Family. Like, it needs to be… I always remember on Seinfeld, the, uh, the gym teacher’s name was Mr. Bevilacqua. Right. And it, it was like, like, so it needs to be a real person. So maybe- It

[00:22:42] Nathan: has to be a real person who has a unique name.

[00:22:44] Mike: Yeah.

[00:22:45] Nathan: And especially if it’s a name that could- You could form a picture around who that person might

[00:22:50] Mike: be.

[00:22:50] Yeah, so no Johnson, Jackson, Smith, anything like that.

[00:22:52] Nathan: Right. Yeah. So it was interesting. So I almost cut this, and in our, um, rehearsal two days before, everyone was like, “Ah, I don’t… Indy, cut everything that doesn’t matter.”

[00:23:04] Mike: Yeah,

[00:23:04] Nathan: yeah. Um, so it almost got cut along with the, you know, the coffee with a friend Ron, you know?

[00:23:11] And so I went back and forth. Instead of deleting the slides, I hid it in Figma To be like, ’cause I wasn’t sure if I should delete it

[00:23:19] Mike: Oh, I thought this was like founder power move. Like, “Okay, they think it’s done. I’m gonna send it.” Oh, that wasn’t it,

[00:23:23] Nathan: okay. Put it back in. No, so what it was is I, uh, was on a call with my friend Andrew East, who I don’t know super well.

[00:23:29] So he’s a former NFL player. Um, he and his wife, Shawn Johnson, have a book coming out, and we were like helping them with some, um, some stuff. And so he was like, “Hey, you got the keynote coming up. Like, what stuff are you releasing?” And Andrew and Shawn are … They’re all in on serving their audience. They don’t care about the marketing or the funnels- Yeah

[00:23:49] all of that. They’re like, they just wanna show up as authentically as possible. Mm. And they care so deeply about their audience. And so I knew of, you know, any amount of like, “Oh, we’re building this thing called Signals, and it’s, uh, going to help you identify the CEO’s audi- Yeah … they don’t care.

[00:24:05] Mike: Yeah.

[00:24:06] Nathan: And so I

[00:24:07] So for the mo- I told them this story, and I said, “That’s what we’re building for your audience, so you can do that for 100,000 people.” I told him that on a call and he loved it, and I was like, “That slide’s going back in.”

[00:24:17] Mike: That’s awesome. And, you know, I need to come up with a name for this, where it’s not … So a story should be something that happens on a certain date and time.

[00:24:26] I’m not saying that you tell the audience that, but it’s like it happened this one time. This actually isn’t a story, and you can tell ’cause it uses the word would, so that you’re really like repeating … You’re, you’re going through like a repeated memory, and that actually is what makes this effective, is that it happened all the time.

[00:24:40] And then you land it on the point, which I think a lot of people would assume the point was evident- Right … and it’s not evident. So the, like that would’ve been kind of cool to picture, but I think everybody would be like, “Wait, wait, what is this third thing?”

[00:24:53] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:24:54] Mike: But yeah, landing it, and like it’s hard to serve people that you don’t know.

[00:24:57] You said it better than that. Like, that’s, that’s what we want.

[00:24:59] Nathan: Heard from a lot of creators who were piecing information about their audience together in surveys and spreadsheets. Robert Glazer was going into his email list and copying and pasting domain names into Google- This is so- … to see if anyone had a relevant business

[00:25:12] this is such a good setup for what Signals does. Has anyone else done this, where you do this manual research? Yeah, there’s a bunch of you that have. And the reason that Robert was doing it is because the right person could book him to speak or could make a bulk purchase of his books, and that might, might be worth $25,000 or more from a single deal Then I heard a story from Greg Eisenberg.

[00:25:34] So Greg signed into his kid account one day, and he happened to recognize that one of the icons I

[00:25:38] Mike: never know what to do with my hands. That’s something I gotta learn. You’ll see me like Like, what is the

[00:25:45] Nathan: half into those

[00:25:45] Mike: fingers? He reached out to- What is

[00:25:46] Nathan: that? He started talking. I don’t know. And he ended up closing a $500,000 design contract for his design agency.

[00:25:53] I was worried this… That’s a real example- That’s crazy … but I was worried it was too big of a number to be relatable. But what I observed, I was really curious about one thing. Greg has a fast-growing list. There’s a lot of people signing up.

[00:26:02] Mike: The, the calculation- So- … is what makes this story …

[00:26:04] Nathan: what was the window of time that Greg could log into his Kit account and that person would be one of these eight slots, right?

[00:26:13] They subscribe, and then they work their way through each of those slots. So I did the math based on his growth rate, and it was 45 minutes. If Greg had not logged in in that 45-minute window, that one subscriber would’ve been lost in a sea of 140,000 subscribers, and I don’t think Greg would’ve ever noticed.

[00:26:29] Mike: Yeah, I mean, if you went the hands thing, like, just bigger gestures would be a good place to go. And when you think about the average amount of people on your list- Okay. But particularly when you’re pointing- And they’re probably not all- … it’s like thumb instead of like- … who

[00:26:38] Nathan: are responding to every email or all of that.

[00:26:41] They’re just reading, enjoying your content, and they’re going on with their lives and businesses.

[00:26:44] Mike: But if you want something you’re doing well, you’re- And you know- A lot of people fall into the trap of both hands have- … that’s the blind spot of the funnel … to do the same thing.

[00:26:52] Nathan: It tells you what your subscribers are

[00:26:52] Mike: doing- Yeah, you’re, you’re at least, like, having them do different things

[00:26:55] Nathan: but it rarely tells you anything about who is actually going through there and why might they be important to your business. You end up losing sight of the humans behind those actions, and as a result, you don’t know who

[00:27:08] Mike: to highlight- Okay, so why are you looking at your notes so much here?

[00:27:10] Nathan: Um, yeah, it’s a good question.

[00:27:11] I think I just didn’t- Yeah … I didn’t have it memorized enough.

[00:27:14] Mike: Okay.

[00:27:15] Nathan: That was one thing where I, like, where to stand on the stage, they were telling me the further back you stand on the stage, the less- The less

[00:27:21] Mike: obvious

[00:27:21] Nathan: it is … the less obvious it- Yeah. When I did the, a full run-through that morning, like, on the actual stage, and there was a lot of stuff that we were still trying to fix, I realized I knew how to, like, go side to side, gradually working my way forward on the stage.

[00:27:34] And I was like, “How do I, how do I back up?” And so I just kept getting all the way to the front of the stage, and then I’m like, my notes are straight below me. Oh. I rely on them a little too much. Oh. And so, and so I had to realize … Actually, that’s why I went to the screen for the Greg Isenberg example and walked up all the way up to the screen and began, and pointed right at it, ’cause it let me retreat all the way to the back

[00:27:58] Mike: of the- Yeah, I can retreat.

[00:27:58] I can retreat. So good. I love that detail. Anyway.

[00:28:02] Nathan: And we can know who someone actually is. We can know their background, their social influence, and we can know their purchasing power. And that kind of identity data has been available for a long time, but it’s, it’s usually locked behind enterprise tail, uh, enterprise tools used by big sales teams, and this costs tens of thousands of dollars.

[00:28:21] Mike: This I was worried about getting right.

[00:28:22] Nathan: And those aren’t the kind of tools that are available to creators. Yeah, that’s what’s happening. And so I tried too

[00:28:24] Mike: hard to read it- Yeah …

[00:28:25] Nathan: but personally-

[00:28:26] Mike: And

[00:28:26] Nathan: I shouldn’t have just ad-libbed it … I think that creators deserve

[00:28:28] Mike: access, too. Okay, let me pause here. This is a good teaching thing.

[00:28:30] I learned this from working with Jenny Wood Man, I can learn a- like Jenny’s … Oh gosh, learn a lot from her. She’s the best. Okay, so if there’s something like that that’s either a tongue twister or you’re just not saying the right way, I always would either … Like, a lot of times I would cheat by just writing it as a slide.

[00:28:48] Mm-hmm. The thing that I couldn’t say, I was like, “Let me just make it a slide so people can at least read it if I screw it up.”

[00:28:52] Nathan: Right. Now, now I have subtitles.

[00:28:56] Mike: Jenny taught me you just say the thing, like, 30 times in a row.

[00:29:00] Nathan: Oh. Yeah.

[00:29:02] Mike: Enterprise sales teams can da, da, da. Enterprise sales teams can … Like, she just did, “Da, da, da, da, da, da.”

[00:29:07] And then I’m watching and this is like this bionic speaking woman. I’m like, “Oh my gosh, this is a really good idea. Pass this along.” Yeah. I love that. Shout out Jenny.

[00:29:14] Nathan: So we’re building a new product that we’re adding into Kit, and it’s called Subscriber Signals. And it’s built specifically for creators.

[00:29:23] And what it does is it identifies your

[00:29:24] Mike: best

[00:29:25] Nathan: subscribers from

[00:29:25] Mike: the

[00:29:25] Nathan: beginning- I thought it worked well to keep coming back to the same animation- Yeah … but it being different. We were worried that it wasn’t different enough. And yeah, that’s what all this- But I think it came through.

[00:29:33] Mike: I think it came through.

[00:29:33] Your audience is made up of people, but all you see is this. Let’s change that. Subscriber Signals shows you a clear picture of who your audience really is.

[00:29:44] Nathan: And notice the later version of this, the team added subtitles to it. It didn’t have that until, like, the day before. Ah. And that was smart to do. Are these real people?

[00:29:53] Uh, no, they’re deliberately fake people. It’s my real account- Yeah … w- with everybody swapped out. Ah.

[00:30:00] Mike: Because your audience is full of people who could change your business if you only knew they were there. So

[00:30:05] Nathan: there’s a demo mode- They already know you … that you can toggle into …

[00:30:07] Mike: it’s time for you to get to know them

[00:30:13] I love what you do here Thanks, Nathan Not enough people heard that. That is funny.

[00:30:20] Nathan: So this voiceover I recorded, like, eight times. I’ve recorded it here in the studio in Boise, I’ve recorded it in New York and then I’ve recorded it here in the studio again- … when they’re like, “It’s still not good enough.”

[00:30:32] And I just thought it was so weird that they … Like, they wanted me to record that, the voiceover, because it’s gonna go on the web, it’s- it’s gonna go all these places. But I’m like, “I’m talking, and then is it AI me that’s talking?” “And then it’s me again?” I’m like, “This is so awkward.” And they’re like, “Just do it.

[00:30:48] It’ll be fine.” So I’m like, “I gotta make a joke about it,” but I couldn’t figure out what to say. And so … ‘Cause I was like, oh, thank, you know … Like, oh, that’s AI me or … And, but then people are like, “No, it’s not AI, right?” Or, like, um … ‘Cause I didn’t know what to say, and so I was like, “I don’t know what to do with this.

[00:31:05] I don’t wanna record the voiceover.” And then Dave, our CRO, was like, “No, just say, ‘Thanks, Nathan.'”

[00:31:09] Mike: It’s so good. I kinda like it less knowing that Dave gave you the line, but- But what I’ll say is 2017 Nathan would not have felt comfortable doing that. Right. And you are way more comfortable feeling like you deserve to be on the stage- Mm-hmm

[00:31:24] and you kn- there’s not, like, some script that you have to do exactly right. Yeah. And, and even with Dave giving you the line, there’s a way of doing that where it’s not funny, and … Or there’s a way of doing that where it’s kinda like, “Did you guys hear that joke? It was funny. Did you hear that?”

[00:31:37] Nathan: Right. But just

[00:31:38] Mike: the little throwaways.

[00:31:39] Yeah. Yeah. I like it.

[00:31:41] Nathan: Uh, and I saw the data from my own list. We hadn’t even built a UI for the product yet. Um, it was just account IDs and follower counts in a spreadsheet. And I saw someone on my list who had 2.4 million followers on LinkedIn, and I thought, “Wait, who’s this? Who on my list has that big of a following on LinkedIn?”

[00:32:00] So I clicked in, and it was Gretchen Rubin, author of The Happiness Project, someone who’s sold millions of books

[00:32:07] Mike: and has her own million-subscriber newsletter. I do think there you should be like, “And it was Gretchen Rubin.” Is she enough of a household name? That’s enough of a household name. I think so, yeah.

[00:32:13] And here she was on my list. Especially to this audience. Yeah.

[00:32:15] Nathan: And so I emailed her and I said, “Hey, Gretchen. I’m gonna be in town, and I’d love to get lunch.” What blew me away is, ’cause we’d never spoken before, and she wrote back immediately, and she said, “Yes, I’d love to. I read your newsletter.” And I had no idea.

[00:32:30] The opportunity to meet one of my favorite authors had been on my list for more than two years

[00:32:37] Mike: Side note, in that email, did you actually explain-

[00:32:39] Nathan: Success depends-

[00:32:40] Mike: No, you were just like, “You wanna get… I’m in New York,” or what? I clicked-

[00:32:42] Nathan: I have never told Gretchen how I knew she was

[00:32:44] Mike: on my list. Okay. So hi, Gretchen.

[00:32:48] I just told the- The problem is always there’s no signal Until now. Until now.

[00:32:52] Nathan: That’s always been a hidden thing, and that’s what Signals fixes. The opportunities were already there.

[00:32:57] Mike: Signals finally makes them visible and gives you everything you need

[00:33:01] Nathan: to act on them. Okay, so what timestamp are we at now in the video?

[00:33:04] We’re at 12 and a half minutes in. This is something that stressed me out, whereas, like, and granted, we showed what Signals was. We played the video earlier, right?

[00:33:12] Mike: Right.

[00:33:13] Nathan: But we’re, you know, we still got to nine, 10 minutes in before we actually, like, said it. That I was worried about or of, like, did I wait too long to get to any substance?

[00:33:22] Mike: Well, this, this is the thing. Theoretically, yes, but it wasn’t a long 12 minutes.

[00:33:26] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:33:27] Mike: So that, that’s, that’s the actual thing.

[00:33:29] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:33:29] Mike: I mean, it is nice that it’s, you had a long speaking spot.

[00:33:33] Nathan: Right.

[00:33:34] Mike: But, but because it didn’t feel long, like, as an audience member, I wasn’t like, “Come on. Get to the good stuff.”

[00:33:39] Right.

[00:33:40] Nathan: Here’s what happens. Let me show you inside. So first, Signals is gonna show you who your influential subscribers are, what they do for work, where they’re based, if they’re high earners or not. For my newsletter, we have 850 subscribers who have a significant- I

[00:33:52] Mike: don’t know. Should we jump ahead? Yeah, let me just say one thing real quick.

[00:33:55] Just notice this. When you are looking down at your notes, your voice is Not just less, less loud, also softer, but it, it’s, uh, it’s less full.

[00:34:06] Nathan: Yeah. Yeah, and so you can see the difference.

[00:34:09] Mike: Yeah.

[00:34:10] Nathan: Yep. Yeah, and that’s the thing where, exactly as you said, like, we often finish fe- some of these things that were in here made it in at the very last minute.

[00:34:17] Yeah. There’s actually a bunch more stuff that we could have released that we didn’t, ’cause our product team was like, “This is too m-

[00:34:21] Mike: Yeah …

[00:34:22] Nathan: too many things to put in.” Yeah. I think that the, the buildup that we had ended up being really good because we were releasing something that didn’t exist before.

[00:34:30] Mike: Yes.

[00:34:31] Nathan: Like, it wasn’t like, “Oh, here’s our version of this.” It’s like, I feel like we had to even, like, really set the stage of why you would care.

[00:34:38] Mike: Well, and it’s easy to skip over that. And then, and again, when you know about it already, it’s easy to forget that the audience doesn’t know.

[00:34:46] Nathan: Mm.

[00:34:46] Mike: It’s like when you… Okay, m- two, three years ago, whatever you changed from ConvertKit to Kit.

[00:34:50] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:34:51] Mike: Remember the original run through? You just, like, said it real fast. I was like, “Dude, you’re changing the name of the company.” Like, you can’t just, like, say it, like… And then if it… There has to be buildup that lets people know, like, this is a thing. The thing that I wa- I was, uh, nervous is too strong a word, but the thing I wondered about, thought could be some, um, fuzziness that you avoided with…

[00:35:13] So Signals is a regular word. It’s not, it’s not iPad or something like that. Yeah. Right? So when you have a regular word and you’re launching, it’s just… If, if someone doesn’t pay attention for a half second, it’s like, “Wait, what?”

[00:35:22] Nathan: What is it? ”

[00:35:23] Mike: Is it a traffic signal?” Yeah. Like, what is this signal? And you did a really good job of, “This is the product name.”

[00:35:27] Nathan: Mm-hmm. This one we debated a lot. It almost got cut.

[00:35:30] Mike: Hmm. I thought it was helpful.

[00:35:32] Nathan: Before when we ra- ran through it, it didn’t have the slides. Let’s say

[00:35:36] Mike: I’m teaching a 90-day cohort, and we’re pricing it at $1,000.

[00:35:40] Nathan: It didn’t… When I was talking through the script, it felt super long. This is actually use of AI.

[00:35:44] I used AI to then say, “Hey, I need this in 25% less words.” Yeah. Yeah. And I still had to tweak it a little bit, but it-

[00:35:52] Mike: That’s $114,000 in revenue, and it’s a great launch.

[00:35:56] Nathan: But it didn’t work at all until we made the slides stepping through it, and it was like, okay, now this isn’t too long. Yeah. This works. So if you think about funnel-based

[00:36:03] Mike: marketing- Well, so that’s also, like, a good slides question for yourself.

[00:36:07] So one of the things I have people do sometimes is read through your script, highlight anything that feels long. Mm-hmm. ‘Cause it’s, that’s often a key that a slide can help you be more efficient. Yeah. Which it big time was here. Maybe

[00:36:18] Nathan: you weren’t that interested or, or- I

[00:36:20] Mike: almost added, like, three more slides.

[00:36:21] I just didn’t have time- Oh … to, like, illustrate some of this

[00:36:24] Nathan: better. Generic blast is gonna drive a few more sales, but it’s ultimately gonna fall flat. And so with signals-based marketing, we can actually treat each person in their journey.

[00:36:33] Mike: This is something I was really trying to get a difference between funnel-based marketing and signals-based marketing.

[00:36:37] And I don’t think I nailed that as well

[00:36:37] Nathan: as I wanted to. And I would send personalized emails to the top 20

[00:36:43] Mike: Probably ’cause they don’t remember what you’re talking about.

[00:36:45] Nathan: Yeah. Another segment of everyone who has 10,000 followers or more and an income level above $100,000. Let’s say that’s 150 people. This is also a hard product because everyone’s gonna use it in a different way.

[00:36:57] Mike: Yeah.

[00:36:57] Nathan: It’s like giving people a generic hammer or a saw, and it’s like you’re gonna use it in your own way for your thing, but like-

[00:37:03] Mike: Here’s how to use a hammer. Oh, okay.

[00:37:06] Nathan: I can push harder. I can ask, uh, sharper questions because I know that this group of people, they have-

[00:37:11] Mike: I will say right around this pa- this part, Ally Grummer was right in front of me, and she kinda like turned around and mouthed like, “Wow.”

[00:37:17] Yeah.

[00:37:20] Nathan: So I like to think of signals as-

[00:37:21] Mike: Cool panning … panning for

[00:37:22] Nathan: gold

[00:37:23] Mike: in your online business. Animation. Okay, so this one, it had a circle around it before, and all I could see was a Petri dish. And so then I said that in Slack, and I was like, “Oh, yeah. No, that’s all I can see.” And so Charlie redid it, so it was a spotlight instead, instead of a magnifying.

[00:37:38] So

[00:37:38] Nathan: funny. For most friends, it’ll make no difference So Terry Rice is already putting this to use. Terry’s a, a keynote speaker, a consultant, he’s a Dada 4

[00:37:48] Mike: This is a great

[00:37:49] Nathan: example Build an engaged audience

[00:37:50] Mike: and- When he

[00:37:51] Nathan: sent us this email, ’cause he wrote it all out in an email, and he’s like, “Hey, sorry I’m so late to respond- So we can give Signals-

[00:37:55] to give you feedback on this, but it’s Kit’s fault.”

[00:37:58] Mike: You

[00:37:58] Nathan: can see what the hook is here And we’re like, “What?” Yeah. And we keep reading. It’s a good hook. He’s basically like, “This changed so much of what I’m doing, and the launch did so well,” and all that. Like, “It worked so well- About being a dad … that I forgot to send you details back because I was too busy- The audience responded-

[00:38:11] loving engaging with my audience.”

[00:38:13] Mike: You want a good example of your product regardless, right? Mm-hmm. But, like, what works particularly well about this one is it’s unlikely in the sense of it’s not something that you would think to look for. Right. He mentioned it once

[00:38:23] Nathan: in his newsletter, and the first sale came in-

[00:38:25] Mike: Like demographics or, you know, like-

[00:38:27] Nathan: Now, my favorite

[00:38:28] Mike: part about this story is- Even if you say demographics, it would be like money and things like that Right

[00:38:30] Nathan: is he said that that subscriber who bought the first copy- Yeah, households with children. When I looked at all the reports from what we built and the data we got back, I wouldn’t have picked that out at all. Like, I was like, “I don’t know why that’s useful, but sure” So that was

[00:38:42] Mike: four days- I thought to myself in the moment like-

[00:38:45] of selling … “Oh, should I be doing that?” Mm. “Should I be talking about that more?” So it’s cool as a product user to think, like, there’s something in there. It might not be parenthood, but there’s something in there for me that I should talk more about. Right.

[00:38:58] Nathan: So when I hear stories like Terry’s, it just reinforces something that I’ve believed for a long time, that building an audience is the single most valuable thing you can do.

[00:39:06] I

[00:39:06] Mike: should’ve done a slide for this. Yes. Yeah.

[00:39:08] Nathan: And all the value from funnel-based marketing, that’s still there. It works incredibly well. Signals just makes that audience twice as valuable.

[00:39:16] Mike: So what you could do on this slide, actually, is, um, funnel and signal right next to each other. I’m not 100% confident in that, ’cause it might look too similar and people- Yeah

[00:39:25] be like, “That looks the same thing.”

[00:39:27] Nathan: That data’s probably really expensive. How much are we gonna have to pay for

[00:39:31] Mike: it? This is so good. This is a Nathan Barry has arrived moment. Like, I was just … This, nobody else in the audience cares about this, but this sounds, again, my whole thing with the speech, even when you’re a founder launching a new product, is I want the audience to forget that it’s a speech.

[00:39:47] And most people who are in speaker mode are like, “I know you were wondering about cost,” and then like, whatever. Like, yeah, we are. But doing it this way sounds more like you’re just talking around the dinner table. I was like, now you might be wondering, cool, but it, it sounds like a lot of money. Right. Like, I can hear someone saying it versus speaker mode, and I was

[00:40:07] Yeah. I mean, that’s another place where it’s like 2017 Nathan doesn’t do this. Yeah.

[00:40:11] Nathan: We’re gonna include it all in our Creator Pro plan, so you don’t have to pay anything else, uh, on top of this. It’s all included.

[00:40:19] Mike: Should’ve gotten bigger applause It should’ve Do people not know what plan they have? Is that possible?

[00:40:23] Nathan: It could be All the extra enrichment, we’re going to get all of that in and bring it for you. So it’s available in beta- One,

[00:40:28] Mike: in my notes, I wrote down applause moments. Like, that’s probably what,

[00:40:30] Nathan: something… If we think about notes for next year or other speeches- Yeah … that I’m working on and all that, like, that’s a skill that I wanna get better at, is how to guide, you know, through, through the script, through the slides, and probably most through the, like, the tone and pacing, to guide to, like, and now you applaud.

[00:40:50] Without it being like, “Where’s my applause?”

[00:40:54] Mike: You could have done, uh, one of these, like, “And how much… Wait, how much does it cost?” Click, and it’s just free, and it’s, like, super big. It says free. You could do that.

[00:41:04] Nathan: I think the hard thing, where we’re navigating, is, like, it is in the pro plan.

[00:41:08] Mike: Yeah.

[00:41:08] Nathan: Which, you know, just statistically speaking, most people are not on.

[00:41:12] It’s not that expensive to upgrade to the pro plan- Yeah … relative to the cost of the data.

[00:41:15] Mike: My thought was, I have no idea what plan I’m on. Right. I would pay for this. But I might be on pro already.

[00:41:21] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:41:21] Mike: So I wonder how many people are like that.

[00:41:23] Nathan: Probably quite a few.

[00:41:24] Mike: Yeah.

[00:41:25] Nathan: Yeah. It was, it was tough to figure out how to-

[00:41:27] Mike: Yeah.

[00:41:27] Right, right, right …

[00:41:28] Nathan: how to articulate. But that’s something. You know, I always think of, like, what’s a micro skill that I’m trying to build? And that would be.

[00:41:34] Mike: Waiting for people to love me. Yeah,

[00:41:36] Nathan: exactly. Yeah. Get our pro plan, and we’d love to, uh, show it for you and help you get it set up for your own list

[00:41:50] Well, I mean, that’s actually- Now- … some good whooping. Simple

[00:41:52] Mike: That is good whooping. Okay, so you can’t do this every time, but I do think one time it is funny to do like a- Understanding how they’re moving Yeah … through your funnel. Taking a bow.

[00:42:00] Nathan: How long they’ve been with you, and whether they- That would … If you were to do it, that would be the moment.

[00:42:04] Mike: Yeah.

[00:42:04] Nathan: Which is why we’re

[00:42:05] Mike: excited about- But it’s also hard in the moment. Like, wait, wait, I’m … But there’s a better part later. You know, like what do I save it for?

[00:42:10] Nathan: And it’s gonna help you go really deep on how your audience is engaging over time-

[00:42:13] Mike: I don’t

[00:42:14] Nathan: know what made me laugh

[00:42:14] Mike: right there. Maybe somebody said something

[00:42:15] Nathan: as they move through the sales cycle. So let’s break it down. These reports show you how your subscribers and unsubscribes, uh, by source. So we have all the attribution. You can filter by UTM. You can see exactly which channels are bringing in the right people. So let’s say you’re running LinkedIn or Meta ads and you wanna know, are those people engaging, and how’s that different from people who signed up from or- organic social?

[00:42:35] You can see all of that right there. And then if we wanna get really nerdy, we’ve got cohort analysis. So you can see your engaged subscribers week over week, and you can see exactly where the falloff happens or where people get excited and stick around.

[00:42:50] Mike: These things are hard because y- your instinct is to make a story here too, but it’s like you can only have so many stories per- But you-

[00:42:56] Nathan: Yep

[00:42:56] you can go and tag those subscribers, and you can have that segment flow straight into Kit ready for an email or an automation So I’ve been building Kit for over a

[00:43:06] Mike: decade now, and So that I would’ve l- like, that could’ve been, that was the f- the conclusion of a feature. Yeah. But I didn’t cue the audience at all.

[00:43:13] Ab- at all. Yes, totally.

[00:43:15] Nathan: We’re building some really spectacular things here. We’re building new ways to connect audience data, building deeper connection points in Kit, and finding more ways to put all these insights to work for you. Now, you might think, “Wow, Nathan, you’re such a talented designer and developer.

[00:43:26] You built all of this yourself, and you dreamed up all of this yourself.” And bigger

[00:43:30] Mike: smile

[00:43:30] Nathan: here if I’m being nitpicky. I appreciate that. I appreciate the flattery. This is good. That is not the case. All of this would not be possible at all, uh, without the person, all of the teams, but especially the person who’s been leading the charge on our products.

[00:43:41] And so will you give, will you join me in giving a warm welcome to Kit’s Chief Product Officer, Katie Swetmelar?

[00:43:53] Mike: She gets music. Yeah. This is a small but important point. A lot of times people transition from speaker one to speaker two, and I’m like, “Do they know each other?” Right, ’cause they just, they just… Here’s the clicker. So you, you don’t need three minutes of every, of like Katie’s backstory, but I do wanna know that you know each other and like each other.

[00:44:17] Nathan: Mm-hmm. Yeah, so something that you and I have talked about, uh, before is being able to build up a roster of people on the team.

[00:44:24] Mike: Yeah.

[00:44:24] Nathan: And so this is Katie’s second year taking half the keynote.

[00:44:27] Mike: Mm-hmm.

[00:44:28] Nathan: One, for me, it’s so much better. Right. Because the amount of prep and rehearsal that I have to do, you know.

[00:44:33] I have 20 minutes that I gotta do. Yeah. She has 20 minutes or so. Also, there’s this article, um, that Wes Kao wrote, uh, called The State Change Method. Hmm. And she wrote it during COVID. And, you know, ’cause everyone’s going to online presentations. E- everything that before was interesting and in person- Yeah

[00:44:49] all this is, like, on Zoom and slides, and it’s so boring. And so her core point is, like, you need a state change every three minutes or so. Hmm. And a state change can be switching speakers, asking questions, something interactive in the Zoom chat, uh, playing music, starting or stopping screen sharing. Like, and she just has a whole list of these.

[00:45:11] Oh, that’s great. Yeah. And she’s like, “Every, at least every three minutes, you gotta have one of these if you wanna maintain.”

[00:45:14] Mike: Three minutes is aggressive, but okay. Yeah. Sorry, keep going. Yeah.

[00:45:16] Nathan: Yeah. And may- maybe she said something slightly different. Yeah. But to keep that. And so in this case, switching speakers, got us one of those, right?

[00:45:23] Mike: Yeah.

[00:45:24] Nathan: And, you know, ’cause if I was presenting the whole thing, it’s just way too long of a presentation.

[00:45:28] Mike: And we had- It’s, it’s hard for you. Like, this- Right … is the thing that the founder trap is, like, “I must do it.” Nobody articulated it this way-

[00:45:35] Nathan: Yeah …

[00:45:35] Mike: but it’s, “I must do it all.”

[00:45:37] Nathan: Right. And so in this case, being able to build up the team and invest in them and give small opportunities, um, like I, I think for this venue, two speakers is perfect.

[00:45:46] But I think that’s part of why Apple does, you know, some of those. Yeah. They’ll do four or five. They’ll bring someone out for a little two-minute demo. Um, I

[00:45:53] Mike: think. Yeah. That’s true. Yeah, yeah, they, yeah, that’s, yeah, a lot of times it’s, yeah, several people, that’s true.

[00:45:58] Nathan: Well, let’s, let’s dive in to see how she starts it.

[00:46:02] Mike: How awesome was that? Are you guys excited- No, Katie, just go … to hear about more product updates? Okay. So just- You would want her to just dive right in … today’s announcement is one of those moments in my career where I’ve been like, “Oh, this is new. This is exciting.” Yeah, I want her to just go in And I get to bring it to all of you.

[00:46:16] We

[00:46:17] Nathan: actually have more

[00:46:18] Mike: to share with you Here’s what I want, here’s what I want Katie to do. Again, this is, this is Mike being, looking for an A++. What I want Katie to do, uh, she might not actually have been able to do. I don’t know how the music works behind the scenes, but what I want her to do is to take the clicker from you, and before she gets to the center of the stage, start talking.

[00:46:36] Nathan: Hmm.

[00:46:37] Mike: Okay. So less of a, “I’m now in the center of the stage, and I am Katie, and I will talk to you now.” Okay. It’s more like there’s momentum.

[00:46:43] Nathan: Hmm, and just carry it through.

[00:46:45] Mike: Yeah.

[00:46:45] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:46:46] Mike: Yeah.

[00:46:46] Nathan: Okay. That’s interesting.

[00:46:47] Mike: So Nathan shared a little bit more, um, about… Wrong slide. Um, who’s on your list and how they’re actually engaging with your creator business.

[00:46:57] And the next question, whenever I talk to a creator is, “That’s great, Katie, but, like, what do I do with that information?” Yeah,

[00:47:03] Nathan: this is set up

[00:47:04] Mike: really well How do I take everything that Kit knows-

[00:47:06] Nathan: She’s doing the whenever I talk to a- Yes … that you were mentioning in the previous episode Yeah …

[00:47:10] Mike: really actionable and helps me?

[00:47:13] And so that’s what I wanna walk you through today. Starting with something that has changed the way that the creators who have used it are using Kit, which is our Kit MCP. How many of you have tried it? We have some hands. Yeah? Okay, great. We’ve launched it- Um,

[00:47:29] Nathan: something else that stands out, the… I guess we haven’t gotten into that level of detail yet, but the, the animations and the graphics, I feel like the team just did a stunning job- Mm-hmm

[00:47:39] on all this, and that made a huge difference, and, like, it carried a lot of the weight of it.

[00:47:42] Mike: Yeah.

[00:47:43] Nathan: Old 2017, if we’re contrasting-

[00:47:46] Mike: Yeah …

[00:47:46] Nathan: it would’ve been screenshots or screen recordings where you have to filter through a little bit more-

[00:47:52] Mike: Yeah …

[00:47:52] Nathan: to see. Actually, 2017, we did live demos.

[00:47:55] Mike: Oh,

[00:47:55] Nathan: damn. And then I think 2018, we realized, like, why are we doing that to ourselves?

[00:47:58] Like, if the Wi-Fi goes out, like, this is terrible.

[00:48:02] Mike: Just burn some paper on the side of the stage while we’re at it. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. See what happens.

[00:48:08] Nathan: But anyway, so later on, uh, you, you can keep playing it, but later on we, um, go into more animations and all of that. Oh, jump to, uh, one of the examples of, maybe it’s further back, uh, when we’re showcasing people on the screen.

[00:48:22] Mike: Yeah, yeah,

[00:48:22] Nathan: yeah. I watched part of this from backstage, and then I came around and watched some from front stage, so there’s a little bit that I missed. You had mentioned something about … Was it- Yeah … that

[00:48:31] Mike: she’s trying to find Dan in

[00:48:31] Nathan: the audience? So,

[00:48:32] Mike: okay, using someone in the audience is a great move. It gives them a little bit of spotlight if they want it.

[00:48:39] Nathan: Yep. Or someone’s like- Even if they’re not … oh, I’ve, I talked to that person earlier this morning.

[00:48:43] Mike: Yeah, totally. And then Dan later, I’m sure someone was like, “Are you the Dan that was on the screen?” You know? That sort of thing. The trap that a l- lot of people fall into that Katie did not fall into is there’s this sheepish, like, “Dan’s here?

[00:48:56] Dan’s here?” Then the- Mm,

[00:48:58] Nathan: sure, nobody … shade from the, and they’re like looking, like,

[00:49:00] Mike: is- Yeah, and then, and then it, it … When you can’t find Dan, so what happens a lot of times is you can’t find Dan in the audience, and then you act as if that, like, someone refuted your argument. And you’re not even making an argument.

[00:49:12] What I loved is she allowed there to be time for someone to find Dan. I was watching him. He tried to not be found. Okay. He kept backing away. But she allowed that time, and like people around him just like, yeah, I don’t know if it’ll pick up on the audio, but in the audience people were like, “He’s right here.”

[00:49:26] Mm. And I just loved that it didn’t kill her confidence.

[00:49:29] Nathan: Yeah. But yeah, that’s a good point of like you could say, “Dan, who’s here at Craft and Commerce.”

[00:49:34] Mike: Yeah.

[00:49:34] Nathan: And the trying to find the person, which I, you know, our MCs have done it a few times- Mm … and all of that, and like it’s just not needed.

[00:49:42] Mike: It’s not needed.

[00:49:43] Well, and I mean, sometimes it’s just like, “Dan”- wasn’t there. Right. He’s not required

[00:49:48] Nathan: to get a cold. Dan’s in the bathroom.

[00:49:48] Mike: Yeah, totally.

[00:49:50] Nathan: Yeah, that makes sense.

[00:49:51] Mike: But I, I love that when it took a minute, it wasn’t like, “Oh, shoot, Dan’s not here. This might suck.”

[00:49:56] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:49:57] Mike: Which it- it’s easy to, to have that deflate you.

[00:50:00] Nathan: Okay, so I want to jump to, uh… Okay, so w- w- a bunch of stuff that we launched, right? The apps, the MCP. One key thing that we were really trying to do in this is bring everything back to the MCP, which, this is a hard thing, ’cause there’s, it’s such a technical term. But basically, like, to be able to interact- Yeah

[00:50:19] with it, with AI. And so Katie had a few touch points, just again with landing pages, of like bringing it back to like, and you can interact with it through your AI tool as well.

[00:50:28] Mike: This is something that’s really hard, is when you’ve got people in the audience that are all over the place technically.

[00:50:33] Nathan: Right.

[00:50:34] Mike: You got the power users, and then you’ve got, what did Liz Wilcox say? “My only feature is press send.” Yeah, exactly. Was that

[00:50:41] Nathan: it? Yes. She’s like, “That’s the only kit feature I use,” and I teach email marketing.

[00:50:44] Mike: Yeah. And it’s, it’s, it’s hard to… On one hand, Liz Wilcox, and I don’t mean literally Liz, but the Liz Wilcox person very well might just be like, “MCP, okay, I’m just gonna not pay attention for a few minutes.”

[00:50:57] On the other, it’s easy to make the Liz Wilcox person feel stupid.

[00:51:01] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:51:01] Mike: You don’t know what an MCP is. So one thing that you can do, I don’t remember if Katie did this in the speech or not, but one thing you can do is you can just declare this is an advanced skill.

[00:51:11] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:51:12] Mike: For you advanced users, you can da, da, da, da.

[00:51:14] Nathan: Yep.

[00:51:14] Mike: And, you know, what she does at some point, I don’t know where it is in this, but at some point she does say, “Power users,” starter sentence power users, rest of sentence, “I’m talking to you power users right now.”

[00:51:24] Nathan: Right.

[00:51:24] Mike: Most people are uncomfortable doing that ’cause it feels too direct, but it’s actually a great move.

[00:51:28] I

[00:51:29] Nathan: like that. In total- See, here she’s summarizing all of the- … available to you in our app store … all of the apps Which we’re really excited about. One little behind-the-scenes thing that we did- So we want to give you everything that works with the way that you run your business- Is when we first made the app store, it was very fragmented.

[00:51:42] Mike: Yeah.

[00:51:42] Nathan: And the, it did not look like visually pleasing. And we’re like, how do you handle that at scale with like 70 and then 100 and several hundred apps? And what we ended up doing, we talked to the team at Framer, which is a-

[00:51:54] Mike: Oh, yeah, yeah …

[00:51:54] Nathan: design platform. And they were like, “Yeah, we just design custom graphics for every single user-submitted app in the store.”

[00:52:00] And I was like, “Wait, you can do that?” I guess it’s not that expensive. And so we hired an agency, actually Rafal, he’s a, uh, Craft and Commerce attendee. Oh,

[00:52:08] Mike: yeah, yeah,

[00:52:09] Nathan: yeah. And so his team designs four custom graphics and an icon for every single… Even if a, a random indie developer makes an app, for every single app in the App Store.

[00:52:18] That’s- And it results in a very cohesive experience like this. So when Katie goes to demo it, like, that’s what it all actually looks like. Yeah, yeah,

[00:52:25] Mike: yeah. Oh, that’s cool.

[00:52:26] Nathan: For something I thought was way too expensive, but then when you did it, you’re like, “Oh, no, that’s actually manageable.”

[00:52:34] Mike: Uh-

[00:52:34] Nathan: All right, let’s jump ahead to the landing pages section

[00:52:37] Mike: that’s a good behind-the-scenes right there.

[00:52:39] Nathan: Okay, so, so some context about landing pages. We don’t wanna over-hype something-

[00:52:44] Mike: Uh-huh …

[00:52:44] Nathan: where we’re, like, going from not good to, like, good, right? And I think it’s a weird thing if you come out and you’re like, “And this is the best thing ever.” Yeah. And so we really…

[00:52:55] We’re not sure how to do this. So we we’re gonna play through it, and then we’ll comment on.

[00:52:59] Mike: She never would have expected before. And this is exactly what this product is built for. And all of this works better having the right people on your list, which brings us to landing pages. You weren’t shy telling us what you thought about our landing page builder.

[00:53:19] Nathan: So she throws

[00:53:20] Mike: it up on the

[00:53:20] Nathan: slide. No,

[00:53:21] Mike: pause it. Yeah, pause it right there. This, again, I don’t know, maybe courage is too strong, but it’s not, it’s not easy to just not say words that you were looking at- … when you’re speaking. But it was so much more effective to do it this way. Okay, so let’s play it out. She, instead of having it as a side, she just says out loud, “You weren’t shy about sharing this with us.

[00:53:47] Some of you said your landing pages are the worst.” Like, that’s not funny.

[00:53:52] Nathan: Right. It might be mean.

[00:53:53] Mike: Yeah, and it sounds mean.

[00:53:55] Nathan: Yeah, in this case, b- ’cause… And she also has, like, this little grin. Yeah. Like, it’s just, you know? Yeah, yeah. Like, it’s clearly true that someone said it, it, but it’s a joke, and it’s meant to be laughed at.

[00:54:05] And it’s also interesting that it didn’t get a sharp laugh. It got a rolling laugh- Uh-huh … and I was kind of thinking about that of like, oh, people are, like, reading it and they’re laughing at their own.

[00:54:14] Mike: Well, so I don’t know the… I’m not, like, a neuroscientist or anything, but I’ve noticed this. Same thing with Tim Urban’s TED Talk.

[00:54:20] There’s, like, a moment where people are like, “Oh, it’s a joke.” Like, there’s this one punchline that’s like, “Oh, it’s a joke.” And I think, like, hearing someone next to you laugh, you’re like, “Wait, there must be something funny. Ah.”

[00:54:30] Nathan: Right.

[00:54:31] Mike: I don’t know. I’m psychoanalyzing fractions of a second in my brain, but you’re right, rolling laughter.

[00:54:35] Okay, keep playing it, ’cause there’s a, a-

[00:54:38] Nathan: Last year, John Meese, who actually is in the audience today, hey John,

[00:54:43] Mike: and is a Kit power user, pulled Nathan aside and said

[00:54:51] Nathan: You need to be a surprise So there’s two things I like about this. One, it wasn’t a big laugh- Yeah … but she got a second laugh by saying, “And he said,” and she flipped the slide again. But then what got another laugh, and I didn’t catch this ’cause I was probably going back- I

[00:55:04] Mike: was right next to John. You were right- I did not tell him to do this.

[00:55:07] It was just, you know, greatness, sheer instinct. He yelled out, “You’re landing p- you’re landing pages to the worst.”

[00:55:13] Nathan: So then that got another laugh.

[00:55:14] Mike: Oh, it is, uh… Gosh. Yeah. That was so good.

[00:55:20] Nathan: You have a point. Our builder was six years old, and it did not have the design or visual quality that

[00:55:28] Mike: you wanted it- Actually, can I add one more thing?

[00:55:29] Yeah. Uh, this is not the most important part of the talk, but I do think it’s worth letting people know the, the, the thought that went into this because there’s a way of doing it where John Meece said this, and John Meece sounds like a jerk.

[00:55:40] Nathan: Right.

[00:55:40] Mike: And you went to great lengths to be power user and, like, he’s a friend who was giving us real feedback rather than, like, some A-hole said…

[00:55:50] Yep. Yeah.

[00:55:52] Nathan: So we rebuilt it from the ground up. This might be the biggest applause of the-

[00:55:58] Mike: In the new editor- Yeah … you can now completely customize your layout, change fonts- That’s funny ’cause it’s such a felt pain point … to fit exactly your

[00:56:05] Nathan: brand. Mm-hmm. It’s the single biggest friction point.

[00:56:07] Mike: Yeah.

[00:56:09] Everything is-

[00:56:09] Nathan: That people list in the product …

[00:56:10] Mike: completely customizable the way that you want it to be. You’ve got 20 beautiful modern templates to choose from, and whether you’re building a lead magnet, a course sales page, or even a launch page, you can build it, customize it, and publish it directly in Kit without needing different tools

[00:56:35] Nathan: You can tell, like, people are, they’re just excited about landing pages.

[00:56:40] Mike: Everyone can start using this new landing page builder today. It’s available for you. And whatever you build, we are so excited to see it. But what’s even more exciting is where we’re taking it next. So when we shared that we were rebuilding landing pages publicly, one of the first things that we heard was, “These updates are great.

[00:57:04] Love the templates, but can’t you just have AI do that?”

[00:57:09] Nathan: This one, I couldn’t think of the joke. There, there’s a sharper joke to make here- Mm … that I couldn’t quite figure out. But the, the main thing that we wanted to do is… I always think of, like, Eminem in Eight Mile-

[00:57:21] Mike: Yeah …

[00:57:22] Nathan: where, like, what are all the negative things that someone’s gonna say about you, about your launch and all of that, right?

[00:57:27] And, you know, in that, that rap battle, he goes lists off all, like, all of the things that you might say.

[00:57:33] Mike: Yeah, yeah.

[00:57:34] Nathan: And now, now you can’t say them about me because I already said them about myself. And so this was an example where we’re like, “Okay, we’ve made progress, but it’s not amazing yet. So what’s the thing that it needs to-” Mm.

[00:57:45] “Like, that people are going to look for?” And even though it’s not quite ready, because we… Like, it’s real code and everything’s about to be demoed, that part is just not 100% live yet because that was, like, the alpha version was finished on the Friday before. And, but that was one thing where we’re like, “Okay, we have to address,” and Katherine Liver is a good friend, and, you know.

[00:58:06] Um, but we have to address, like, the actual thing and give the full moment to be like, “Okay, it’s turning into what everyone’s going to expect.”

[00:58:13] Mike: Got it. Got it. Okay, that’s cool. That’s good to know.

[00:58:16] Nathan: So this is the part of the talk that we’re really ty- trying to nail. And so what we feel like is, well, over the last, like, two years- Mm

[00:58:25] we’ve been playing a different game than everybody else, ’cause we’ve been building towards an app store being connected data, like, the relationship between your subscribers and you is the most important thing, and here’s how everything is integrated together, and it’s all AI first and how the creator and our, you know, all of this stuff.

[00:58:39] Whereas everyone else is just like, “Here are some features.” And so this was our attempt at articulating that, and I’m not sure how much of it landed.

[00:58:49] Mike: I don’t think you emphasized that you’re playing a different game.

[00:58:51] Nathan: Yeah. ‘Cause it felt too on the nose to-

[00:58:54] Mike: Yeah …

[00:58:54] Nathan: to say it.

[00:58:55] Mike: Hmm. Yeah, that’s an interesting one.

[00:58:57] I mean, the only time I can remember you really talking about other companies was several years ago, and you were kind of, like, looking at all the-

[00:59:05] Nathan: Where everyone’s moving away from the creator economy- Yeah … and we’re s- doubling down on creators. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I think that’s the only time I’ve done it.

[00:59:12] Mike: Would it felt bad… I’m not saying you made the wrong decision, just would it felt bad about it?

[00:59:15] Nathan: I think I just couldn’t figure out the phrasing-

[00:59:17] Mike: Oh, okay …

[00:59:17] Nathan: to, uh, yeah, to do it. But this is something I think that you’ll hear us talk about a lot more in the future as we ca- sort of get all this out there and then- Mm

[00:59:27] build on it.

[00:59:27] Mike: Thank you.

[00:59:39] Nathan: So the music there is on purpose. It’s the instrumental version of what’s coming We’ve shown you a lot today. A lot of AI, a lot of automation, and, uh-

[00:59:47] Mike: Huge win for the Knicks the night before. Can’t plan that …

[00:59:50] Nathan: turning a lot of technology that does more things for you.

[00:59:51] Mike: That’s right.

[00:59:53] Nathan: That’s where the whole world is moving, and it’s really exciting But the more powerful that technology gets, the more we wanna be deliberate and intentional about the other side of it, and that’s real human connection, community, right?

[01:00:09] Being in a room- Yeah, are

[01:00:09] Mike: you,

[01:00:09] Nathan: like, tired

[01:00:10] Mike: of using your hands at this point? Like, this is like- … with

[01:00:12] Nathan: people who share the same values as you.

[01:00:14] Mike: No, I mean, I, I mean, I’ve been off stage for 20 minutes,

[01:00:16] Nathan: so. And this is something that it’s easy to say. Everybody says community matters, relationships matters. But this is something that we are actively investing in.

[01:00:25] And so that is why I’m really excited to share with you our next community feature.

[01:00:29] Mike: And that is- This is actually a little bit of a miss. It doesn’t end up mattering because it’s such a killer announcement, but I’m gonna overdo it right now- Yeah … but this would be a place for the, “Our next big…” Da, like that- Like

[01:00:43] Nathan: bring up the energy.

[01:00:44] Mike: Yeah, that crescendo, yeah.

[01:00:45] Nathan: Yeah. And so what the other thing I’m doing right now is I’m in the middle of the screen, and so I’m walking off to the side. Oh. Yeah.

[01:00:53] Mike: This is a classic. Right, right, right. Yeah, so y- your brain is somewhere else. You’re like, “I gotta get off, I gotta get off.” I

[01:00:58] Nathan: gotta move off- Yeah … to the side as the video plays

[01:01:18] Yeah, I love that they, uh, switched from the… So the previous years it was three separate screens, and then this year they went to the full wraparound. It’s actually the same LED panels, but-

[01:01:30] Mike: Are you feeling weird now because there’s no more music? Yeah,

[01:01:32] Nathan: come to life in New York City. It was really- I was trying to figure out the timing of when to move on to the video- Yeah

[01:01:36] because it looped and I didn’t know when. So we hosted a friends and family event there last week, and seeing the space come- But I like that it no longer says Craft and Commerce in the background. Yeah. There’s so many different spaces in here. It’s like, it’s like immersive. There’s a mastermind area.

[01:01:47] There’s places for workshops. There are six video recording studios, all with different sets and scenes that you can use, all for your text content. Do they have Taylor

[01:01:55] Mike: Swift hymns like these? Yeah, they

[01:01:55] Nathan: do. All

[01:01:57] Mike: right.

[01:01:58] Nathan: There’s something new we’re trying out- This one is called Blank Space … which is our immersive recording studio, where it’s actually a TV as the background.

[01:02:03] Mike: This one before, the lighting in the real studio is actually slightly better.

[01:02:07] Nathan: Really? We’re trying

[01:02:08] Mike: out the beach. Yeah.

[01:02:10] Nathan: His Brooklyn apartment, all of that. There’s a bookcase that folds down into a stage, because it’s New York City and you gotta, you know, make the most, like, the best use of space, where we hosted live podcasts.

[01:02:26] There’s room for about 60 to 70 people to listen in. It’s all recorded on high-quality cameras.

[01:02:30] Mike: Not necessarily, but it would’ve been cool to see it fold down.

[01:02:32] Nathan: So you can have that in-person experience and- Yeah.

[01:02:33] Mike: That would’ve been… That would’ve gotten the full… Yeah …

[01:02:36] Nathan: uh, watch as well. And there is so much more that I can’t wait to show you in person It’s been amazing to see so many creators record content- Both

[01:02:48] Mike: Sam and Michelle were there in the audience,

[01:02:51] Nathan: and so it was fun to have their clips-

[01:02:52] in Boise, in

[01:02:53] Mike: Chicago. And it

[01:02:53] Nathan: would be even more

[01:02:53] Mike: amazing

[01:02:53] Nathan: to see

[01:02:53] Mike: what

[01:02:54] Nathan: you accomplish

[01:02:54] Mike: in New York City as well … up on stage. Oh, that’s cool. I didn’t even realize it was Sam,

[01:02:56] Nathan: yeah. So you can consider this your official invitation to come to New York or Boise or Chicago. Come in person, record content, attend an event, network with other creators, and just be in the community- Okay, so,

[01:03:09] Mike: uh, Brian, our new COO, afterwards he was like, “Okay, you killed it.

[01:03:11] It was so good. Nicely done. You just missed one thing.” And I was like, “What did I miss?” And he’s like, “You forgot to tell them the studios are free.” And I was like, “Oh.” Ah. Share this with the audiences too,

[01:03:24] Nathan: who are here to serve you their audiences and do something really, really special.

[01:03:27] Mike: Yeah, it’s a little bit of a miss for the l- customers know that already, but for the live stream, it’s a little bit of a miss.

[01:03:34] So let’s do a behind the scenes here. Your concern was this is, this about Kit, it’s about users, for creators, by creators. Also, let me tell you about my first book and my book that’s coming out.

[01:03:48] Nathan: It’s all about me.

[01:03:49] Mike: Yeah.

[01:03:49] Nathan: Yeah.

[01:03:50] Mike: So un- unpack that.

[01:03:52] Nathan: Yeah, we went back and forth on it. Um, so I wanted to, to show this idea of, like, going back to the Steve Jobs versus your friend Nathan.

[01:04:01] Mike: Yeah, right.

[01:04:02] Nathan: Right? I wanna end this on, uh, your friend Nathan- Mm-hmm … was writing a book- Ah … and had a pain, and he solved it. And I, I had versions of this where I was like, “And I couldn’t write another book until I felt the product was finally good enough”, you know? And it only took me 12 years or, um, something like…

[01:04:18] Or, uh, man, it’s 14 years.

[01:04:20] Mike: That’s funny. Do you have, like, weird years? This is off topic. Do you have… I find that I never calculate from 2026. Like, 2020, like 2018, I feel like is not seven years ago.

[01:04:32] Nathan: No, eight years ago. Yeah, ’cause

[01:04:33] Mike: of

[01:04:33] Nathan: leap. Yeah. Right. Yeah, no, it’s, it, it’s weird to do the math on it and- Yeah

[01:04:37] and now the number is getting so big, like- Yeah … this, we’ve been at this for a long time. Yeah, I didn’t want it to feel like it was all about me.

[01:04:44] Mike: Mm-hmm.

[01:04:45] Nathan: And I definitely didn’t wanna make it feel like a pitch for my new book.

[01:04:48] Mike: Yeah.

[01:04:49] Nathan: And so I was trying to walk this line of, hey, we ha- I built this product for you, and I built it for me as well.

[01:04:55] And you know it’s for me because I’m building the things that I wanna have- Yeah … when I launch this next book. Yeah. Mm-hmm. That I did it, I’m a creator.

[01:05:03] Mike: Right. Right, right, right. Oh, that’s interesting. For,

[01:05:05] Nathan: for creators, by creators.

[01:05:08] Mike: Ah, that’s interesting. That would’ve been an interesting way to go. I didn’t think about it.

[01:05:11] Nathan: 798 subscribers hovering over the send button, and that started my obsession with email marketing and earning a living as a creator. 119 days after hitting send, I wrote the first line of code for Kit, which was my attempt to codify all the email marketing best practices that I learned into a product.

[01:05:33] And our ethos has always been for creators by creators.

[01:05:38] Mike: Maybe that’s a helpful side to have, but I guess there, there’s like so much happening, maybe not.

[01:05:42] Nathan: Only took a decade

[01:05:46] Mike: That’s cool

[01:05:46] Nathan: though. It’s called The Ladders of Wealth.

[01:05:48] Mike: Thank you.

[01:05:48] Nathan: And, you know, my email list is a lot bigger now. I have a whole team behind me, and yet I think I’ll probably still hover over that send button just as nervous as I did a decade ago. Some things just don’t change.

[01:06:02] Mike: I didn’t deliver that line

[01:06:03] Nathan: as naturally as I wanted to.

[01:06:04] Yeah. Yeah. But a lot is going to be different. It felt like a line. I’m doing this launch with everything that I showed you today. So I’ve got signals to find the right partners, the right people to help me host launches in each city.

[01:06:15] Mike: You feel a little,

[01:06:16] Nathan: like, tired here, honestly. The right podcast to go on.

[01:06:18] Mike: I think I’m emotional.

[01:06:18] Nathan: Uh. I’ve got landing pages to bring new people into my audience. I’ve got the MCP to help me act on all of it.

[01:06:24] Mike: So I think the best version of this, by the way-

[01:06:26] Nathan: This

[01:06:26] Mike: is

[01:06:26] Nathan: my

[01:06:26] Mike: dream … I think the, the best version of this in terms of gestures is … So in general, just bigger gestures I think would help you with energy too.

[01:06:37] Mm-hmm. It’s always weird to talk about like hands and stuff, but- Right … I think the best version of this as it relates to gestures is thing one, hand down, thing two … I mean, less robotic than I’m making it, but like- Yeah … I’ve got the da, da, da. I’ve got the team to help me. I’ve got duh, and it’s like a little bit faster about these terms.

[01:06:52] Bigger, faster, and bigger. Yeah. Yeah.

[01:06:54] Nathan: So my last book launch was on MailChimp. I didn’t get to see who was on my list. I didn’t get to understand how they were engaging. That’s funny. I just, I wrote emails, I hit send, and I hoped. And this time I have everything that I need to do it right on Kit So for the last decade, we’ve been learning from you Your feedback, your creativity, and your ambition are all over this product I didn’t say your fingerprints.

[01:07:21] We didn’t build Kit for you. I skipped that accidentally. We built it

[01:07:23] Mike: with you.

[01:07:24] Nathan: And it’s not just about using software. You all are part of a creator network and a community that helps each other grow. So in just a second, I’m gonna wrap up, and you’re gonna applaud. It’d be weird if you didn’t.

[01:07:38] Mike: It was well delivered.

[01:07:40] You got there.

[01:07:41] Nathan: But as I do that, I want you to know one thing. Behind the scenes, we’re all cheering for you. The Kit team is cheering for you, this community is cheering for you, and we cannot wait to see what you build next. Thank you so much.

[01:07:58] Mike: Okay, so some content, like that closing slide. Yeah. That’s all what you

[01:08:02] Nathan: wrote.

[01:08:02] Mike: Yeah.

[01:08:03] Nathan: And it worked really well. I thought it was good for one laugh. It was good for two right

[01:08:08] Mike: there. Yeah, yeah. Right? ‘

[01:08:10] Nathan: Cause when you said, “‘Cause you’re gonna applaud,” like that got a laugh.

[01:08:14] Mike: That was good. Yeah.

[01:08:15] Nathan: And then, yeah, I was, uh, happy with the delivery on that one ’cause I waited just long enough. Yeah.

[01:08:20] And then it was an aside of like, “It’d be weird if you didn’t.” Yeah.

[01:08:23] Mike: Yes.

[01:08:23] Nathan: And that got the second laugh. So that worked really well. Ah. It was like… I feel like that was a good example of perfectly walking the line between… And I can say this ’cause you wrote that. Yeah. I

[01:08:32] Mike: wrote, yeah.

[01:08:34] Nathan: Between a serious, heartfelt moment-

[01:08:37] Mike: Yeah

[01:08:38] Nathan: which can drag on too long- Mm-hmm … if you let them, and like punctuating it with like, “We don’t take ourselves too seriously- Yeah … and this is still fun,” and…

[01:08:46] Mike: Yeah, ’cause, uh, you know what, and I hadn’t thought about it in that way, but yeah, we don’t take ourselves too seriously is also why John and me can tell you that landing pages are the worst.

[01:08:53] Right. And why you accept feedback and why people love this brand.

[01:08:58] Nathan: Yeah.

[01:08:58] Mike: Huh.

[01:08:59] Nathan: That’s a lot of fun.

[01:09:00] Mike: I’m curious… Well, I’m curious two things. So you immediately, you walk off 10 seconds from now, are, are you like, “Oh, thank God that’s over”? How are you feeling?

[01:09:10] Nathan: I felt great. Okay. Other than the beginning, the chaos at the very beginning- Yeah

[01:09:14] and knowing that the live stream hadn’t… But I had actually processed all of that when Katie was on stage. Yeah.

[01:09:19] Mike: Right. Yeah, yeah, you got a break.

[01:09:20] Nathan: And so I was, I was really excited. We had spent extra time on that, on the New York moment. Mm-hmm. Like figuring out, okay, Empire State of Mind, we’re gonna… You know, like the song.

[01:09:30] Realizing, oh, we can do the full takeover. And so I felt like, okay, that worked really well. And I honestly liked having the closure of just coming on for a few minutes and closing it out, um, you know, rather than it… I didn’t have the same feeling of coming out off of a big talk.

[01:09:45] Mike: Yeah.

[01:09:45] Nathan: Which also, to your point earlier, I needed to reset my energy ’cause I could’ve b- like, I think I hyped up before, uh, before the talk and, but not again like when I came back out.

[01:09:59] Mike: Oh, man. Yeah, that’s hard. That’s like a starting pitcher, and then like the team scores a bunch of runs and you’re like, “But I need, I wanna pitch again.” Right. Like, it’s like a long inning, and you’re like, “Oh, like my energy’s gone.”

[01:10:10] Nathan: Yeah.

[01:10:11] Mike: Oh, that’s interesting.

[01:10:11] Nathan: But I was, I was very happy with how it turned out.

[01:10:13] Mike: Yeah.

[01:10:13] Nathan: Um.

[01:10:13] Mike: So right after this, we go to a break I mean, one of the things that’s hard about a speaker is you want every single speech to change every single person’s life. And we go to break, and from the audience’s standpoint, just the sheer math of it, we’ve been in the room for 90 minutes now or close to it.

[01:10:29] Nathan: Yeah, between intros, Simon’s speech, and then this one, yeah.

[01:10:32] Mike: Yeah, and that’s like the absolute limit that- Yeah … people should be doing, like- Yeah … where people should go without a break. So I don’t know if you were literally like this, but a lot of people wanna walk off the stage, and then you’re picturing 800 people waiting to talk to you.

[01:10:46] Did you, uh… Well, first of all, did you come out of the green room or did you just, like, stay back there?

[01:10:52] Nathan: Um, I think I stayed back for a couple minutes, but then came out ’cause it was into a break, and so then I just started talking to people.

[01:10:55] Mike: Yeah, you did start talking to people. So, like, what are some of the things you’re hearing afterwards?

[01:10:59] Nathan: Yeah, people were really excited. The … I was sur- I’m always surprised at how many people come to Craft and Commerce who aren’t customers.

[01:11:04] Mike: I find that strange,

[01:11:05] Nathan: um- But it’s cool. It’s great. Yeah. I, I think it’s, like, probably 30% of, of attendees.

[01:11:10] Mike: Um,

[01:11:10] Nathan: which means we put on a great

[01:11:11] Mike: event. I did hear one person next to me, and not John, obviously.

[01:11:15] Lot of John me shout-outs here. But there was someone in our area who said, who muttered, he’s like, “I’m gonna have to go back to Kit.”

[01:11:22] Nathan: So I heard a lot of that, a lot of, “Oh, I gotta upgrade to Pro,” and so it’s like, okay, this is working. I would always ask the team, or ask people, “Hey, you know, f- like, what resonated the most?”

[01:11:30] And I would say, like, the team who built it, I wanna be able to tell them what resonated. And I heard signals the most, and then landing pages.

[01:11:37] Mike: Well, it’s also a good question for anybody who just gave a speech, because everybody, everybody will be like, “I was good.” And it’s not terribly helpful.

[01:11:46] Nathan: But yeah, we heard, heard a bunch of good feedback.

[01:11:50] It went really well. So yeah, it was a ton of work going into it, but it was totally worth it. Before we wrap up, any, any final thoughts on …

[01:11:57] Mike: I am curious how … Oh, you know what would be cool for people to hear is your evolution of rehearsal. So I’m saying, I’m saying when you start rehearsing- Mm … and then what that looks like.

[01:12:10] And I can tell you what you do if you don’t know what I’m talking about.

[01:12:13] Nathan: Are you talking about the Loom videos, or

[01:12:15] Mike: what? No, no, no. The thing you told Katie about how to rehearse.

[01:12:18] Nathan: Okay, tell me.

[01:12:20] Mike: You’re like, rehearse with speaker notes. Mm. And then once you feel like you know that reasonably well, run through it without the speaker notes and just see how it comes out.

[01:12:28] Nathan: Yep, and then compare the transcript of the speaker note version with the no speaker note version and see which one was better.

[01:12:34] Mike: Yeah. ‘

[01:12:35] Nathan: Cause usually there’s a line or two that’s ad-libbed and you’re like, “Oh, that’s way better.” I was- That was

[01:12:38] Mike: really good, yeah …

[01:12:39] Nathan: like, in the script, I was, like, really trying to massage this, trying to get it right.

[01:12:43] I was looking to Claude to give me ano- better idea of how to phrase it, and then when I had no notes and I just said it, I was like, oh, turns out that was the natural way.

[01:12:49] Mike: Uh-huh.

[01:12:49] Nathan: The other thing that I do, which you’re on the receiving end of many of these- Uh-huh … is I will write, usually I will voice dictate ideas for something.

[01:12:58] I will then turn it into a script. I’ll then record me talking through the script to see how it sounds. I’ll massage it from there. Will turn it into slides, and then I’ll do a run-through, record it in Loom of those slides, and I’ll dra- I’ll send it to you, I’ll send it to- Yeah. You got the most polished version this time.

[01:13:15] Mm. Usually you get a really rough version.

[01:13:17] Mike: I think you sent it on a Friday. It was a Friday night. It was, it was after hours. I remember that, it was after hours. And I saw it come in and I was like, “Ah, I can’t do this right now.” ‘Cause I was expecting the rough version. Like I, I, we were like cooking dinner- Yeah

[01:13:28] I was like, this is not, this is not the time for a Nathan Barry Loom video. But it would, it would’ve been fine. Yeah.

[01:13:34] Nathan: Um, but then that gives everyone the chance to comment on it and be like, “This works. You should phrase this better.” Like inline comments. Yeah. And then I’ll incorporate all that. And so then I’ll just do run-throughs.

[01:13:42] And then you don’t feel as bad sending it to someone, ’cause you’re not like, “Hey, will you practice with me?” You’re like, “Watch this on 1.75 speed and-

[01:13:49] Mike: That’s a great thing that you do, is you give permission to people to not-

[01:13:54] Nathan: Watch it sped up. Yeah. Unless you’re giving feedback on timing or delivery, but we’re not doing that at

[01:13:59] Mike: that stage.

[01:13:59] No, we’re not doing that yet. Yeah. So. Uh, Loom is the proper way of doing that, and more people should do that.

[01:14:05] Nathan: Yep.

[01:14:05] Mike: Yeah. That’s good. How do you feel, do you feel like with the script in general, how, how much do you feel like you have to get the wording exactly right?

[01:14:14] Nathan: If I had had more time to rehearse, what I would’ve done is deleted most of the speaker notes out of the- Mm-hmm.

[01:14:20] Mike: Yeah …

[01:14:20] Nathan: out of the script. ‘Cause it, they serve you until they don’t.

[01:14:24] Mike: Yeah.

[01:14:24] Nathan: And so I had more times where I could’ve said something just fine on, on the screen, or based on the slides- Yeah … and what I knew was coming next, and I read the script.

[01:14:33] Mike: Yeah.

[01:14:33] Nathan: And I, I should’ve deleted down to like the three words.

[01:14:36] Mike: Yeah.

[01:14:37] Yeah, yeah. My suggestion to people who have these presentations done more than seven minutes before they go on stage is only put things in the speaker notes that are hard for you to remember.

[01:14:48] Nathan: Yeah.

[01:14:49] Mike: So like for me, and I don’t, I don’t speak very often, but I, I just have trouble with statistics. And for some reason I’m always nervous that like someone’s gonna get mad if I said 3.7 instead of 3.8.

[01:15:01] Nathan: Yeah. So you put it in and you get it correct. Just like put it

[01:15:02] Mike: down in the speaker notes and I just know when I get to that part. That’s exactly right. Yeah.

[01:15:06] Nathan: All right. Well, I’m getting the cue from Kara that, uh-

[01:15:09] Mike: Oh, better, better … we’re

[01:15:09] Nathan: supposed to be back at the conference. The, ’cause it turns out we’re running a whole conference

[01:15:12] Mike: for 400 different people.

[01:15:13] We get, we get to be the last speakers. It’s all good. Nathan, well done, my friend.

[01:15:18] Nathan: Thank you. Well done. It was a lot of fun to share behind the scenes.

[01:15:20] Mike: Yeah, it was awesome.

[01:15:21] Nathan: All right. Till

[01:15:21] Mike: next year.

[01:15:23] Nathan: Sounds good. If you enjoyed this episode, go to YouTube and search The Nathan Barry Show, then hit subscribe and make sure to like the video and drop a comment.

[01:15:33] I’d love to hear what some of your favorite parts of the video were, and also just who else you think we should have on the show. Thank you so much for listening.

[00:00:00] Mike: The point of a speech is to make an emotional connection with the audience.

[00:00:02] Nathan: Mike Pacchione is the best speaking coach I know. Mike’s number one goal for any speaker-

[00:00:07] Mike: Is that the audience forgets it’s a speech.

[00:00:09] Nathan: He spent years at Duarte coaching executives at some of the biggest companies you can name, including 75 of the speakers that we’ve had at Craft & Commerce over the years.

[00:00:16] Mike: The greatest gift you can give your audience is to be completely present with them. But the only way that can happen is if, A, you know your stuff, B, you know how to calm yourself down, C, and that’s a big one, you know that the audience is rooting for you.

[00:00:29] Nathan: You’re gonna learn the reason you don’t wanna tell stories in chronological order.

[00:00:32] Mike: I think a good story should end in the middle. My three principles make the acronym TED. T is tension, E is editing for emotional impact, and the D is-

[00:00:42] Nathan: I like that. And in this episode, he also shares the three types of talks that you can give.

[00:00:45] Mike: There are a million different ways you can give a speech, but I find it’s helpful to think in one of three categories.

[00:00:50] Funny is one, and I don’t mean stand-up comedy. Second would be rock-solid logic. The last one is to share your pain.

[00:00:57] Nathan: There’s a reason that I hire Mike to work with every single speaker at my conference, and you get to hear so many of his expert tips all for free.

[00:01:04] Mike: Be the emotion you wish the audience to see, as Gandhi might say.

[00:01:08] Nathan: As Gandhi might say.

[00:01:10] Mike: I love that

[00:01:12] Nathan: Mike, welcome to the show.

[00:01:13] Mike: Thank you, Nathan Barry. I’m happy to be able to pronounce your last name. I’m happy to be able to say Boise properly. We’ve got the pronunciation down. Let’s do it.

[00:01:21] Nathan: We’re ready to dive in. So you and I have been working together on Craft & Commerce for a decade now.

[00:01:26] In that time, we’ve done eight events. Mm-hmm. We’re in the middle of one right now, and the thing that I always bri- bring you in to do is to coach and work with every speaker. There’s a lot that goes into that. Yeah. But I was thinking about the numbers. Eight events, 8, 10 speakers a year, we’re, we’re probably pushing 75 speakers that you’ve worked with, and then obviously you’ve worked with hundreds more in the rest of your job.

[00:01:47] Yeah. You do far more than this. But what is one thing that you’ve noticed working with all of these speakers that helps them take a talk from good to great?

[00:01:55] Mike: Yeah. It’s all those people plus Shiv and Haley. I was watching them on stage today, and I was like a proud parent. I was like, “Ah.” They’re

[00:02:00] Nathan: so good.

[00:02:01] Mike: They’re so good at this. Listen, what I want from a speech, and this is perhaps gonna sound strange, what I want more than anything else from a speaker I’ve worked with is if the audience forgets it’s a speech.

[00:02:14] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:02:15] Mike: I want the person on stage… I, I… If you’re in the audience, I… and I’ve trained one of the speakers, Jay Papasan did this great today, I want the audience just feeling like, “I’m friends with Jay.”

[00:02:26] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:02:26] Mike: This is, this is really- Yeah … tight and developed, and the timing’s great, but I’m friends with him. And if the audience forgets it’s a speech- Mm-hmm … that’s a win for me. One of the things that’s surprising about me, people are always like, “Oh, you must love TED Talks.” I’m like, “Maybe.” And the reason for that is ’cause I, I just feel like a lot of TED Talks are person hits the center of the stage, and you can like see themself giving a TED Talk.

[00:02:46] Like, yeah, right, right. Yep. Exactly. I’m in the red carpet, and I will start my speech now.

[00:02:51] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:02:51] Mike: And I just want the audience to forget that they’re watching a speech. Mm-hmm. And that’s the best.

[00:02:55] Nathan: Well, that was something when I was working on my speech ’cause you and I have worked on- Yeah … many of my keynotes together, is I realized I was falling into Steve Jobs- Uh-huh

[00:03:05] and not Nathan Barry. Yeah. And the way Nathan Barry, the way that I want him to show up is he’s talking to his friends. Yep. He’s talking about a product they’ve built, and we’ll, we’ll get into this in another episode. But, “Hey, I made this thing.” And I made it for you. I hope you like it

[00:03:20] Mike: The greatest gift you can give your audience is to be completely present with them.

[00:03:24] But the only way that can happen is if, A, you know your stuff-

[00:03:27] Nathan: Mm-hmm …

[00:03:27] Mike: which you should if you’re on a stage, but there’s still knowing the speech itself. Right. So, A, you know your stuff. Uh, B, you know how to calm yourself down. C, and that’s a big one, you know that the audience is rooting for you. Right. So if you think of the audience as your friends, they’re rooting for you.

[00:03:44] And like, frankly, it’s pretty rare that the audience isn’t. I mean, I don’t know, have you ever been on a stage where you felt them just being like, “I hope he screws up. I hope he makes

[00:03:53] Nathan: some jokes.” No, I have, I have been on stages where I felt like, uh, this room is not set up, like this whole speech is not set up for success.

[00:04:00] Mike: Mm.

[00:04:01] Nathan: And so that’s something, you know, we do a lot of things in the conference in order to really set the room up for, up for success.

[00:04:06] Mike: Yeah.

[00:04:06] Nathan: And the single thing that I think makes it, the two things that make the biggest difference, this would be for conference organizers, is you have to make the room feel full.

[00:04:14] And so the way that you do it is, one, get rid of the tables, all that nonsense, like chairs.

[00:04:19] Mike: Yeah.

[00:04:20] Nathan: You know, pack people up. And then have someone at the back of the room that says, “Oh, I’m so glad you’re here. Would you mind taking a s- a seat right up towards the front?”

[00:04:26] Mike: Yes, nobody sits in the front otherwise, yeah.

[00:04:28] Nathan: Yeah, and so Casey on our team was welcoming people, and then as it started to fill in, he, as people come in, he’d be like, “Oh, two people. I got two right here,” you know? And he’s like just, just filling it in. And when someone’s like, “I don’t really want to,” he was like, “You know what? The greatest gift you can give to these speakers right now is sitting up front and giving them your energy.”

[00:04:45] And it makes a world of difference. And, and anyway, so-

[00:04:49] Mike: That’s awesome …

[00:04:50] Nathan: I feel like the, the question you always ask me when we sit down to work on a speech together is, what’s the one thing you want people to take away? Yeah. What’s the… Like, what usually comes out of that? Like, how, how do you use that in your process to, like, get people to distill it down to the essence?

[00:05:04] Mike: Man, every time I ask this, a- and particularly when it’s a really experienced speaker, I’m like, “I’m gonna sound so stupid.” It’s really rare that someone has a good answer. Mm-hmm. Unless, like, uh, maybe you’re ready for it by now, but-

[00:05:18] Nathan: I’ve gotten enough coaching

[00:05:19] Mike: that … yeah, I’m always like, “Fill in the blank for me.

[00:05:21] If blank, then blank.” And there’s always like this, “Huh,” like looking up at the ceiling, “Hmm, I think it’s…” I mean, this is, this is what happens- Yeah … even when someone who’s getting paid $50,000 to speak.

[00:05:33] Nathan: Right.

[00:05:34] Mike: The trap that we fall into is that, and, and even the way that most people get invited to speak at a conference or at a company is, “Here’s the topic.

[00:05:43] Nathan, I’d like you to talk about email marketing.”

[00:05:45] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:05:46] Mike: So Nathan could talk about email marketing for eight hours.

[00:05:49] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:05:49] Mike: I’m sure people would take something from that, but if Nathan shows up with a point of view about email marketing or the new signal, you know, like what- Yeah … whatever the topic is, it’s a lot easier for you to focus what you actually wanna talk about, and it’s also a lot easier for the audience to do your work afterwards.

[00:06:05] So, like, the great gift of giving a speech, if you have a clear point of view, is now the audience can do the marketing for you. Right. They can go repeat it.

[00:06:13] Nathan: Yep. And- And they can do it in a couple sentences.

[00:06:14] Mike: Yes.

[00:06:15] Nathan: This is what, you know, Jam- we always talk about with James Clear in, in Atomic Habits, is that there’s a few, like, portable stories- Yeah

[00:06:21] that then people can repeat. “Oh, what’d you like ab- about the book?” “Oh, man, the part on, uh, identity ha- based habits.” Yeah. Like, ev- every action you take is a vote for who you wanna become, right? You can talk about that, and there’s a nice tight little thing that someone will remember.

[00:06:33] Mike: Yes. When you can do that in a way that’s creative and gets the audience, that’s a huge win.

[00:06:41] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:06:42] Mike: But generally, like, so I’ve got seven strategies that I kinda mentally walk through when I go through with people, but the, the story is the one that I always… I think if I had to guess what, like, that would be the one I would do, and the reason why is because stories are good, establishes who you are.

[00:06:55] It builds trust immediately. When you build trust, now the audience is gonna just… Like, you can screw up after that- Right … ’cause you’ve won them over. And the other thing it does is for you as the presenter, particularly if you have nerves, you’re getting to something easier right away instead of starting with some bold statement or statistic.

[00:07:14] Right.

[00:07:15] Nathan: Yep, or trying, trying to posture or any of that. Okay, you’re saying start with stories or, like, that being a good way to go. How do you think about story selection?

[00:07:23] Mike: I always feel a little bit weird about answering questions like this because my instinct is like, “Well, it depends. It depends on

[00:08:39] Nathan: Is that the best story or just the first one that I thought of? And often I will force myself to take a step back and say, “What other stories do I have?” And go through a bank of stories and say, “Nope, nope, nope. Okay, that’s a candidate.” Yeah. “This is a candidate.” And sometimes it may end up somewhere else in the talk.

[00:08:53] It may not actually make the talk at all, but at least I know, like, this is a, a, the right story, not just the first one that came to mind.

[00:09:00] Mike: Yeah, and if you’re gonna start with this story at the beginning, ideally it would not be that long.

[00:09:06] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:09:07] Mike: I’ve seen people w- start with stories that are seven minutes long, and even though it’s a really good story, at some point the audience is wondering-

[00:09:15] Nathan: Where are you going?

[00:09:15] Mike: is this gonna be, is this the whole speech? Whereas if you take that same exact story and put it at the end, that works.

[00:09:22] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:09:23] Mike: Because at that point the audience knows, likes, and trusts you. Right. And if, and if they don’t, it’s not because of the story. And that can build to this, like, triumphant thing at the end.

[00:09:31] Mm-hmm.

[00:09:31] Nathan: Okay, that gets into one of my favorite things, which is when speakers open a loop and close it.

[00:09:36] Mike: Uh-huh.

[00:09:37] Nathan: And then later they actually fully can close, you know, maybe a few loops that you didn’t even realize were still open. I don’t remember too many det- details of the talk, but I remember Michael Hyatt at World Domination Summit, he was, like, telling stories throughout and all this, and then he, like, tied the whole thing back- Wow

[00:09:52] and I was like, “You are so good at what you do.” How do you approach that? Is that something that you love for speakers to do? Is it something that can be trained, or is it, like, just a particular talk?

[00:10:00] Mike: That is almost always it started as a long story, and then we realized later, oh my gosh, we can tie it all together.

[00:10:07] Nathan: Hmm.

[00:10:08] Mike: So I don’t remember Michael’s in particular, but it’s like, it’s like you told me the story, and it’s 14 minutes long. And like, dude, we can’t start with a 14-minute story. A 14… And, and you- Yeah … wouldn’t tell 14 minutes anyway, but, like, there’s a, there’s two minutes that would start, and then if we did, and then if we cut it here and then finished here, like, that would be amazing.

[00:10:26] And there’s, there’s almost… And it’s like this g- wonderful creative high that you get when, and especially when you work with someone else. Yeah. It’s like, “Oh, my gosh, you know what we could do, duh, duh, duh.” And, uh, and that, that’s the best. But y- there usually needs to be this, like, sensei moment where you realize, oh, like, we can move it around, and that’ll work.

[00:10:42] Nathan: Okay. And, and so what I’m realizing in that, it’s another thing that I’ve learned from you, is that you don’t have to tell stories in order. No. And in fact, you almost never should. And then something that I’ve heard you do before in a workshop, ’cause I actually probably worked with you on, like, five speeches- Oh

[00:10:54] before I ever saw you give a talk, and you have a talk that, or like you gave a workshop talk. You tell this whole story, builds up all this suspense, and at the end, I think it was John Meese who was like… And as you’re, like, wrapping up, I’m like, “And what happened?” And you’re like, “Nothing.” There was no, there was no-

[00:11:11] Mike: Okay.

[00:11:11] There’s this whole online thing, a lot of advice that people give is, like, that a good story should start, should start in the middle, and I’m like, maybe. A- again, you risk it feeling like this is a performance, not a speech.

[00:11:23] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:11:24] Mike: I think a good story should end in the middle. Or at least should consider ending in the middle.

[00:11:28] So I, I have three principles for telling a story. The thing that you saw is actually when I realized I had a framework for this, which this is how smart I am. I’m giving a workshop to a mastermind of yours, and I look up at the screen, and I realize my three principles make the acronym TED. I’m like, “Oh,” and I, I think I even said that out loud.

[00:11:48] I was like, “Oh, my gosh. That says TED.” Help people with

[00:11:53] Nathan: TED Talks too. Yep, exactly.

[00:11:55] Mike: One of those… So the E in that is edit for emotional impact. Mm-hmm. So said differently, the end of the story is probably not where in your brain the capsule of the story is. You should end it where it gives the audience the emotional feeling that- Mm-hmm

[00:12:12] that will, that will be a win for them.

[00:12:15] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:12:16] Mike: So the story that Nathan’s referring to, I, I, I won’t tell it, but I had this really freaking creepy thing happen at a hotel. This guy stalked me. I’m staying at this Courtyard Marriott in Connecticut. I wind up, because of where I parked… Gosh, none of this story happens if I just park in a different place.

[00:12:33] Because of where I parked, I wind up walking back and forth through the lobby four different times. Because I walk back and forth through the lobby four different times, I make awkward eye contact with this one guy four different times. Then I get on the elevator. He gets on the elevator. I get off on the third floor.

[00:12:46] He gets off on the third floor. This is already so weird. Like, anybody who’s stayed at hotels, the odds of someone even being on the elevator with you, let alone getting off on the third floor, like, this is really low percentage. Then I get off. He gets off. I go left. He goes left. I make another left. He makes another left, and I’m like- And he’s, like, following me at a, at a weird distance.

[00:13:08] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:13:09] Mike: And I’m thinking… And I, just as I’m thinking to myself, like, “This guy’s gonna jump me,” he, he stops about halfway down the hall, allowing me to get all the way to the end of the hall, room 326. Hold onto that. That’s gonna matter in a minute. So talked to my wife. Like, I’d flown all the way across the country, drove to Connecticut.

[00:13:24] I, I… I’m like, “Okay, I’m gonna go to bed early,” so I lay out my clothes for the next day, go to bed. Middle of night, phone rings. I answer it. Well, I answer my cell phone. I later realize it’s the hotel phone, and on the other end, I just hear breathing. I just hear

[00:13:39] Nathan: You’re already freaked out.

[00:13:42] Mike: But people pleaser, Enneagram nine Mike decides in that moment, “Hey, what room were you trying to call?”

[00:13:49] And the guy goes, “I was trying to call room 328.” And I’m going, “Oh, it’s 326. Wrong number.” He goes, “I know. I’m standing outside of your door right now.” So I, like, jump into action, throw on all the lights. I’m, I’m expecting to see, like, little shadows underneath the door or something. Looked at the peephole, he’s not actually there.

[00:14:06] I’m like, “Okay, all right. Calm down, calm down.” And I’m thinking to myself like, “Should I call the front office? Should I tell them? Do I wanna switch rooms?” And kind of like weighing the pros and cons of that. And just as I’m having that conversation with myself, phone rings again. For some reason, I answer the phone again.

[00:14:23] And when I do this as a presentation, I click to a slide, and I say, “And that’s when he asked,” click, “Are you sure you wanna go to bed right now?” Gasps from the audience, and that’s when I end the story because there’s nothing that interesting that happens afterwards. They switch rooms. I Home Alone the room.

[00:14:41] I, I mean, I vividly remember I had a glass of water next to my bed where I was like, “Okay, so if, if this guy breaks in, I’ll just like throw water at him.” Like, what was that gonna do? Right. Like, a-ha, you know? But the reason why I end it there is ’cause emotionally that’s the best part of the story.

[00:14:55] Nathan: Mm.

[00:14:56] Mike: So that’s where it should end, and people would do well to ask themselves that.

[00:15:01] There’s a guy in my, um, my current masterminds who, uh, has this amazing story. It- when his, when his daughter was born, he, uh- You have four kids? Three? Four?

[00:15:12] Nathan: Three. Three kids.

[00:15:13] Mike: Three kids. Where do you drive to?

[00:15:16] Nathan: Uh, various practices, school,

[00:15:19] Mike: home. No, no, sorry. I mean, like, when the kids are born, like, where do you drive to?

[00:15:21] Nathan: Oh. Oh, when the kids are born. Uh, you drive to the hospital.

[00:15:25] Mike: Where in the hospital do you drive?

[00:15:27] Nathan: Where in the hospital? The birth center? The-

[00:15:29] Mike: Right. Okay …

[00:15:30] Nathan: pediatric.

[00:15:30] Mike: Yeah, so Doug drove to deliveries, and He tells this story, but then, like, he’s telling it and he keeps going. I’m like, “No, no, that’s the end. That’s all we need to know.

[00:15:42] We don’t need to know that you were, like, standing on forklifts or, like, weird conversations.” He was at the loading dock- Yes …

[00:15:46] Nathan: when he should have been-

[00:15:47] Mike: Yes … at

[00:15:48] Nathan: labor and delivery.

[00:15:49] Mike: Yes. I drove to deliveries. That’s the question you have to ask yourself. So it’s not, it’s not like where does the package end in your brain.

[00:15:55] It’s where is the emotional, like, the best emotional ending for the audience. So, like, think about how you can end the story in the middle.

[00:16:03] Nathan: I like that. What are… When you say TED as the acronym- Yeah … what are the other two?

[00:16:07] Mike: So the, the T is tension.

[00:16:09] Nathan: Okay.

[00:16:09] Mike: So the, every good story should build tension.

[00:16:11] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:16:12] Mike: Uh, when…

[00:16:13] M- my feeling is in life when you’re bored it’s because there’s an absence of tension. Now, that’s good for human beings. Uh, we don’t wanna be walking around and, like, constantly worried there’s, I don’t know, like, a jackal around the corner or something. But, uh, in a story, there needs to constantly be tension.

[00:16:27] When you’re telling it to someone else, you want to see them nodding along or y- or either saying out loud or you can picture them saying out loud- Right … like, “Wait, then what happens? Then what happens?” So think of it that way. So you wanna be building tension. An easy way to do that, well, easy for me to say, harder for people to do, is particularly for the really important part, and I notice you did this when you were s- speaking yesterday, the really important part, switch to present tense.

[00:16:50] So he calls me on the phone, and I hear breathing. Not I heard breathing.

[00:16:55] Nathan: Okay.

[00:16:55] Mike: I heard breathing, Mike is safe.

[00:16:58] Nathan: Right. Right. He lives. He’s standing on the stage- Yes … in front of me. I remember that.

[00:17:02] Mike: Yes.

[00:17:02] Nathan: But in present tense, you’re like, “I don’t know what happens to Mike.”

[00:17:04] Mike: Right, and it’s weird, even though you can see that I’m on the stage and I’m alive-

[00:17:08] it feels like something bad might happen. Right. So present tense, at least for that, like, real tense part. Mm-hmm. Present tense for that. So T is tension, E is editing for emotional impact, and the D is the use of detail. And this is a tricky one- Okay … because people who are bad at telling stories also use detail, and it’s just too much.

[00:17:26] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:17:27] Mike: So when I do this as a workshop, I always ask people, like, “Who’s really bad at telling a story?” And someone inevitably, “Oh, my uncle.” I’m like, “How… What’s it sound like when your uncle tells a story?” And it’s like, “Well, he gives you every last detail. So he’ll be telling a story, and he’s like, ‘Yeah, I woke up that day, and I put on argyle socks.

[00:17:41] And I remember I had lemonade, and I checked the weather app.'” And as a listener, you’re like, “That matters. That matters, doesn’t it?” No, it doesn’t matter. The reason why that happens is actually not bad. The reason why that happens is because the person who’s telling the story is replaying it in their own head, so they’re, like, re-experiencing the story.

[00:17:58] Mm-hmm. Which is actually what you want. You just need to edit the story so that the audience doesn’t hear every last detail. Mm. What you want is to be painting a picture of what the story looked like. If you’re Harry Po- are you, like, are you a Harry Potter- Yeah. Yeah, yeah … person? Okay. So I don’t actually know how it’s pronounced, pensieve, pensieve.

[00:18:14] Nathan: Yeah, it’s one of those.

[00:18:15] Mike: The idea in Harry Potter is that, uh, you could stick a wand in someone’s brain and extract a memory and allow them to walk through it. Mm-hmm. Like, that’s what we want when you are telling a story. So even if it’s as basic as giving the location, I was sitting in my home office, or I was sitting at the dinner table- Mm

[00:18:32] or I passed this guy in the hallway, those are allowing the audience to picture what’s happening.

[00:18:37] Nathan: Right.

[00:18:37] Mike: What most people’s instinct is just, I talked to Nathan, and simply by saying, “We were out to coffee”-

[00:18:44] Nathan: Right. I can set the scene.

[00:18:46] Mike: Yes

[00:18:46] Nathan: I’m there with you.

[00:18:47] Mike: The audience can picture it. That’s what we want.

[00:18:50] Nathan: Mm.

[00:18:50] Mike: So the use of detail, and if you want a rule of thumb there, one or two vivid details, it adds credibility and enables the audience to picture what’s happening.

[00:18:58] Nathan: Yeah, I like that. Okay, tension, edit for impact, for emotional impact, the right details.

[00:19:04] Mike: The right details, and, like, it’s fun when I notice this from people.

[00:19:08] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:19:09] Mike: James Clear did a mastermind and he talked about, uh, one of the happiest days of his life, he remembered getting out of cla- when he was at Denison, junior year. He’s like, “I had no money, and I got, like, a really good grade on a test, and I remember running out of the, uh, running out of the door of the hall, of the, the dorm or the, um-

[00:19:26] Nathan: Classroom

[00:19:27] Mike: the cla- I remember running out of the classroom and just having, like, a big smile on my face.” We can picture that whole thing.

[00:19:31] Nathan: Right.

[00:19:32] Mike: I mean, I’m picturing bald James. I don’t know if he was bald when he was in college, but, like, you can picture that whole thing. That’s what you want. Mm-hmm. There’s this guy Mark Megna, the, like, former football player.

[00:19:43] Uh, and he talked about how he, in high school, he, um, woke up every day at 5:00 AM to go running, and he talked about on really cold days, he would pull the sleeves down over his hands, and it’s like-

[00:19:54] Nathan: Mm. Yeah, that’s a … yeah.

[00:19:56] Mike: That’s what you do, and you can feel that, and suddenly- Right … you’re feeling the cold.

[00:19:59] You’re there with him.

[00:19:59] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:20:00] Mike: So little details like that make a huge difference.

[00:20:02] Nathan: Okay, let’s talk about the middle of a speech.

[00:20:04] Mike: Mm.

[00:20:05] Nathan: You know, you nailed the beginning. Yeah. That’s really important. We get into the middle.

[00:20:08] Mike: Yeah.

[00:20:08] Nathan: There’s a few things that I’ve seen people do where it changes the tone of the middle of the speech.

[00:20:13] Two things in particular, uh, uh, of examples. One, anytime you tell a story- Like, there’s a change in the tone of voice. I remember this from sitting in church as a kid. Yeah. Right? You’re like, you’re so bored, you’re not paying attention, you know, you’re nine years old or whatever. But the speaker’s voice changes when they tell a story.

[00:20:31] And so you’re like, “What’s that?”

[00:20:33] Mike: Ah. Right,

[00:20:34] Nathan: right, right. Yeah. Right? And you lean in, you can see that. The other thing is, there’s certain lines that you can use, and I’m really curious for your take on this, but one that stands out to me is Craft and Commerce years ago, Tim Grahl was giving a talk, and he has no slides, which already is a badass move.

[00:20:51] Mike: Right.

[00:20:51] Nathan: Totally. You know, it’s like total power move, so long as you can pull it off.

[00:20:54] Mike: Yeah.

[00:20:54] Nathan: Now, he told me later that, you know, he had his note cards and he’s walking around Boise just doing miles- Mm-hmm … rehearsing his talk. And again, this is the benefit of a 20-minute talk, right? You can, you can memorize the whole thing, at least what’s impor- important.

[00:21:08] But he says this line. He says, “You know, I was with Nathan at, uh, this conference in, I don’t know, 2014, and I actually don’t have permission to tell this story.” “I didn’t, I, I didn’t get permission to tell this story.”

[00:21:21] Mike: Should I tell it? Should I tell it?

[00:21:23] Nathan: Which it, so it’s a, it’s an entirely factually true line.

[00:21:25] Mike: Uh-huh.

[00:21:26] Nathan: Of course, it’s a story that I’m fine with him telling. Yeah. He could have asked me, “Hey, Nathan, is it cool if I tell that story?” But had he done that, he would not be able to say, “I didn’t get permission to tell the story.” Which, so everyone knows he’s telling a story, ’cause, you, you know, he starts and then this pause.

[00:21:43] And so if you’re halfway in, then, then he says that line, that hook, and everyone’s all the way in. Like, “What is he gonna say that he doesn’t have permission to say?” And that stood out to me so much, ’cause I was like, man, that little line, and I’m sure you have many more like it- Yeah … leveled up the story and the talk so much, and it built up the tension in a huge way.

[00:22:01] Mike: For the longest time, I struggled with the middle. I love the beginning, I love the end. This is the, the inversion of most people I work with, by the way. Most people are like, “I hate the beginning, I hate the end. What do I do?”

[00:22:10] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:22:11] Mike: I love the beginning, I love the end. The middle, I was always like, “Eh, this is boring.

[00:22:13] I’m just, like, telling people what to do.” There are a number of different frameworks that I walk people through. So this is one of those, like… Well, it kind of depends. But what I will tell you is the smartest thing you can do in the middle is tell the audience what they think is true or what they’re experiencing right now.

[00:22:29] Mm. And tell them what they should be doing instead. And- The

[00:22:32] Nathan: contrast.

[00:22:32] Mike: The contrast, yeah. Mm-hmm. And some language that I love there is, “You might think that…”

[00:22:36] Nathan: You might think that. Okay.

[00:22:37] Mike: You might think that we should da, da, da. And what you’re gonna insert there is what the audience actually thinks. You’re just gonna be less accus- accusational.

[00:22:45] Nathan: Yeah, you can just fill in the blank on that. Mm-hmm. And it’s actually, you might think that it already does some of it for, for you. Uh-huh. Like, I, as you say that, I’m like, oh, and then you, you’re about to d- contrast it in some way. Yeah. That phrase has built-in tension.

[00:22:57] Mike: You might think that. Also, asking questions is another good one.

[00:22:59] Now, it has to be a good question, but when someone asks a question, you want to answer it. So as long as, as long as it’s not how you doing? How’s the weather today? How was your flight? You know, like-

[00:23:10] Nathan: Yeah …

[00:23:10] Mike: questions don’t matter. As long as it’s a real question, if your audience wants to answer it, you are building tension that way.

[00:23:16] Nathan: And you want them to answer it in their head or-

[00:23:18] Mike: In their head, yeah,

[00:23:19] Nathan: yeah. Okay. What, is there an example that comes to mind?

[00:23:21] Mike: So I, here’s what I love doing, is, uh, set up a situation. Mm-hmm. It’s like a, it’s a, it’s a situational story, so it’s not necessarily like this actually happened to me.

[00:23:30] Nathan: Right.

[00:23:31] Mike: But let me make one up for you.

[00:23:34] You’re talk- what, what’s like something that you would talk about in the future about Kit?

[00:23:37] Nathan: Let’s talk about our subscriber signals.

[00:23:40] Mike: Totally. Yeah, yeah. That’s a great one. Right. So yesterday you talked about like, it’s not who you know, it’s who, who knows you And I think that all makes… That, here’s, here’s, I don’t actually remember the way you said it.

[00:23:50] Yeah. But, like, here’s one way you could say it is, like, “I think that all makes sense, and we’ve probably all felt that at some point. But you’ve probably also asked yourself, how could I actually know who knows me?”

[00:24:00] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:24:01] Mike: And now the audience is like, “Where’s he going with this?”

[00:24:03] Nathan: Mm.

[00:24:04] Mike: And they probably don’t actually have an answer.

[00:24:06] But you’re building the tension of Nathan has an answer.

[00:24:09] Nathan: Right.

[00:24:10] Mike: So asking that question is a huge one.

[00:24:12] Nathan: Yeah. I like that.

[00:24:14] Mike: Uh, another one is, is similar to you might think, but it’s like, “A lot of people think,” or, “What I see a lot of people doing,” or, “When I’m working with my clients,” and every time the rest of that sentence is filling, it’s just filling in what the audience actually does.

[00:24:28] But instead of it being a direct, like, I’m coaching Nathan and he did this thing, I’m just making it apply to everybody.

[00:24:34] Nathan: That’s right. Making it

[00:24:35] Mike: universal. All of those things will work every time.

[00:24:37] Nathan: Okay, something else that I’ve seen you do is describe people- Oh, that’s my

[00:24:43] Mike: favorite …

[00:24:44] Nathan: in vivid detail. Mm-hmm.

[00:24:44] And you actually did this in your Craft & Commerce keynote when you were having people text in. But how did… Like, talk about how you describe people in a way that gets the audience really engaged, and then yet you can talk about what you did- Yes … to actually maintain engagement in your talk.

[00:25:01] Mike: Okay. I much later reali- I, I learned that there’s actually a name for this.

[00:25:05] So in Hollywood they call it a logline, and that’s meant to be a one-sentence description of a mov- of a movie.

[00:25:10] Nathan: Okay.

[00:25:11] Mike: So Speed was Die Hard on a bus. Mm. One-sentence description of the movie. So this is a logline, same idea, for a person. And the idea is that when you’re telling a story, every human being has, of course, depth to them.

[00:25:23] And sometimes Nathan’s like this, and sometimes he’s like this. But in a story, people do not need to know, like, he’s generous sometimes, and then other times he goes back into poverty mindset. Like, they do not need to know that. Right. So what you want is, if there’s another character in the story and it matters what that person is like, you want to take the adjective that jumps to mind and then find another way of describing it.

[00:25:45] So my favorite example is my friend Sarah Levi, uh, so what most people would say is she’s a health nut. That’s not bad. People understand that. But there is such an opportunity for people to really understand Sarah Levi. So when I describe Sarah, I’m like, “Sarah is the type of person that eats quinoa for her cheat meal.”

[00:26:06] It’s like, “I know who that is. I’ve got that friend.” Right. My w- But like, my wife- She has a million layers to her, and it depends on who I need her to be in the story.

[00:26:17] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:26:17] Mike: So sometimes she’s the woman who graduated college in three years. Other times she’s other times, uh, she was the student who reminded the teacher to assign homework.

[00:26:30] Right. So you know what I mean? Like, and the better you know the per- and you could have a lot of fun with this stuff. Right. So for you, I thought it would be fun/funny to have every… ‘Cause most people at conference know you in some way. Mm-hmm. To have people tell me, like, what their logline for Nathan would be.

[00:26:50] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:26:51] Mike: I did one thing really well and one thing poor.

[00:26:54] Nathan: Okay. Well, first what I liked about this is you got in the middle of the talk, which is often a challenging portion to maintain engagement and all of that. Yeah. You got everyone to be very engaged, not just a, oh, vote in a poll or something like that- Right

[00:27:06] but to, like, actively think and to try, like, to try out your exercise in a way that could be entertaining and-

[00:27:12] Mike: Meanwhile, I’ve never done this before. Yeah. I have no idea how it’s gonna go. So my brain is very, uh, “Let’s make sure there’s not a disaster.” So I had prepackaged a few in case nobody replies.

[00:27:25] Mm-hmm. But I put my actual phone number on a slide, like, not the Google Voice, uh, not the Google- Yeah … like this is my legit phone number. I never bothered to think about what if everybody enjoyed doing this and it was fun, because I got, like, 84 text messages in three minutes. And I’m trying to read them all, and they’re coming in, and, and I can’t keep up, and I, I didn’t factor in the way, like- It would keep going to the top.

[00:27:53] So I kept trying to click on things. I’m like, “Ah, no, another one came in, another one came in.” What I should have done is turn… Like, once they started coming in, I should have turned the ringer on so everybody else could hear it, like ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding.

[00:28:03] Nathan: That would’ve been a funny moment in

[00:28:04] Mike: itself.

[00:28:04] That would’ve been a really funny moment. I never asked myself, what if it goes right? I asked what, what if it goes wrong?

[00:28:08] Nathan: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

[00:28:10] Mike: There were some really funny o- there were some really kind ones. There were some really funny ones. The one What, do you remember what your favorite

[00:28:18] Nathan: was? I, I don’t remember the details.

[00:28:21] Mike: Uh, one, there were two that stand out, and one was, “He’s nice guy Steve Jobs”- Okay … which I thought that was, that was great. And the other one The conference that year was particularly cold, and everybody felt it Like, the, the air condi- The air conditioning was like- The air conditioning was way too

[00:28:36] Nathan: cold.

[00:28:36] Mike: Yeah. Yeah. And s- someone texted… Oh, you know what? It was John Meese. He, yeah, ’cause I- Okay … could say. John Meese texted… John knows you and loves you, so this is said in love. But he was like, “Nath- Nathan is the type of person who will set the air conditioning to 56 degrees to sell more sweatshirts.” ‘

[00:28:55] Nathan: Cause we had, we had giveaways- Merch

[00:28:57] like, for sale. Yeah, that was-

[00:29:01] Mike: Which, I mean,

[00:29:01] Nathan: you know- It’s o- c- you know, we’re strategic. We’re about making

[00:29:04] Mike: money. We’re- I’ll tell you how strategic he is. Yeah. Yeah, you wanna know how strategic Nathan is.

[00:29:08] Nathan: Yeah. Okay, we’ll move on to another thing, but before we do that, uh, what’s the one that you wrote for John Meese?

[00:29:14] Mike: John didn’t like this.

[00:29:16] Nathan: I thought it was great.

[00:29:18] Mike: Okay, so like, stage one, what are some adjectives that describe John? Like, he’s smart, he’s really efficient, and I think John is always like, “I can problem solve this better than what people are doing.”

[00:29:28] Nathan: Yep.

[00:29:29] Mike: Stage two. So what would that actually look like? And I, I described John, I was like, John’s the type of guy who probably popped out of the womb and said, “Hold on, I can do that faster.”

[00:29:40] Nathan: I died laughing at that one ’cause I know John

[00:29:42] Mike: so well. I said, but that’s him. Right. Like, he’s like, “Nope, I can do this better.”

[00:29:45] Nathan: Yep. The reason why I wanted to spend some time on this is because, you know, in your TED acronym, we’re talking about detail.

[00:29:50] Mike: Yeah.

[00:29:51] Nathan: Right? So we think about detail of a couple perfect details to help me picture the room or, you know, maybe there’s a color or a texture or something, a temperature that I’m getting out there, but stories are usually based around people.

[00:30:04] And so this is a way of bringing in, very quickly, bringing in vivid detail into a story.

[00:30:08] Mike: That, you know what, there’s a, there’s a woman in my, my speech called The Mastermind, Andrea Davis, who, uh, talks about screen time with, with kids, and she’s talking about her own family. And she tells this story about when she knew it was a problem was when her daughter, who’s the type of, uh…

[00:30:25] her daughter, who’s the type of girl who would clean her room without asking. Bam, we know it.

[00:30:29] Nathan: Yep. Yep. That’s-

[00:30:31] Mike: And now she’s pretending that she has a Glock. Like, she’s like lip syncing to a song and like motioning a Glock. And Andrea’s like, “Whoa.” And that hits so much different when it’s the daughter who would clean her room without asking than-

[00:30:43] Nathan: Right

[00:30:44] Mike: a random

[00:30:44] Nathan: teenager … the, could be a rebel kid, could be- Yes … whatever else. Yeah. Yeah. No, that, that’s so much, makes so much sense. Okay, let’s talk about the ending. Hmm. Endings are fun.

[00:30:52] Mike: Endings are fun, and the time, the, they are the things that people spend the least amount of time on. I mean, most people write sequentially.

[00:30:59] Mm-hmm. And because they write sequentially- You’re like, “I’m tired of doing this.” Nobody would articulate it this way. Yeah. It’s kinda like, “I’m tired. Let’s just end this thing.” Yeah. So yeah.

[00:31:11] Nathan: Wrap it up. Lot of points.

[00:31:12] Mike: So hey, um, hope you enjoyed this talk. Oh, that’s the last slide. Thank you. The ending, all things being considered, the beginning and the end are the most important parts.

[00:31:22] First thing you hear, last thing you hear. Principle of recency would say that the ending’s the thing that matters the most. I don’t know. I actually think the beginning is, but the end, the ending’s really important. Uh, the ending should do two things. At least in most talks there should be a call to action, call to action or next steps.

[00:31:37] The trap that a lot of people fall into is they make that last. Mm-hmm. So now the last thing that the audience has heard is homework.

[00:31:42] Nathan: Yep.

[00:31:43] Mike: And what you actually want is something after that.

[00:31:47] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:31:47] Mike: This is something that shows them here’s what will… Here’s what your life could look like if you do that homework.

[00:31:53] And, uh, some really good language there that, uh, James uses. James slash our brand’s morphed on this one, but it’s like, uh, here’s the next thing that you… Like, okay, so I have some next steps for you, and then I’ve got one final thought after that. Mm-hmm. So now the audience is, like, kinda, ooh, what’s that?

[00:32:08] Yep. What’s that final thought? But yeah, the, the ending- The- … is your chance to, like, tell the audience, like, here’s what can happen.

[00:32:15] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:32:16] Mike: And it should be optimistic. It should be, uh, showing them what, like, their new world can look like. And one of my tricks there is to write two different intros.

[00:32:29] Nathan: Okay.

[00:32:30] Mike: And then, I mean, obviously you’re gonna have to, like, rephrase it a little, but one of them just turns into the outro.

[00:32:36] Nathan: Explain that.

[00:32:37] Mike: So the beginning I was, like, brainstormed a few different stories. I’m like, well, it could be this one, it could be this one. So now I’m gonna turn story B into the outro, but I, I just need a little like- Mm-hmm … and look how much I’ve changed since then.

[00:32:51] Nathan: Right.

[00:32:52] Mike: Or I look back at that story, I’m like, oh my gosh, I used to think this, and now I think this other thing.

[00:32:57] But you need to be, you need to be creative with the outro too. And you know, like, one of the strategies there is save your absolute best story, like, um, absolute best client story, save that for the outro. That’s a great one.

[00:33:09] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:33:09] Mike: Uh, when I worked with Amy Porterfield, this is way back, this is Facebook ads Amy Porterfield.

[00:33:14] Nathan: Yep. A

[00:33:15] Mike: lot of people don’t even know there was that Amy Porterfield. But she had a, she had a pastor on her list who was using Facebook ads, and he doubled his income. So if that can happen for, like, a pastor, what about you with an actual business? Mm-hmm. And that, that’s, that’s where it landed, was, like, that was her best or her most unlikely client story, and it was like, “So that’s possible for Al Jennings.

[00:33:37] What could be possible for you?”

[00:33:40] Nathan: And it lands the whole thing. Mm-hmm. It gets them thinking about themselves. It’s, it’s inspiring. It’s concrete- Yeah … because w- yeah, we had the examples all the way through and, and we had a specific example at the end.

[00:33:50] Mike: And if you can land it in an identity change, that’s a huge win too.

[00:33:54] Nathan: Mm-hmm. And that’s where the, you know, these talks that have, you know, pain, whether it’s like a deep pain or here’s the painful time I learned this lesson, that can be really good.

[00:34:04] Mike: That can be really good. Yeah. Mm-hmm. This is what’s possible for you.

[00:34:07] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:34:07] Mike: But you have to take the next step.

[00:34:09] Nathan: Yeah. That makes sense.

[00:34:12] Something else that has worked well for me, you kind of touched on it, uh, the one more thing.

[00:34:16] Mike: Yeah.

[00:34:17] Nathan: Right? You land on these points. A lot of people like to land on facts.

[00:34:20] Mike: Uh-huh.

[00:34:20] Nathan: You know? And, and here are the, the four facts. And, and there’s a version of this I saw once. Uh, there’s a speaker named Jason Cohen, who’s the founder of WP Engine, which is- Okay.

[00:34:29] Yeah … a huge software hosting, uh, platform. And he ended up on a great tactical slide. This was, would be like a rock solid… You know, he’s teaching software growth tactics. But he had weaved his four main points into a single sentence at the end, that he could put the whole thing on, on the slide, and the, the four points were bolded, but it was one thing that you could remember.

[00:34:50] And I was like, “Okay, you nailed that.” But it was the tactical side of it.

[00:34:53] Mike: Yeah.

[00:34:54] Nathan: Often people end on that, and then they go to Q&A.

[00:34:58] Mike: Yes.

[00:34:59] Nathan: What I really like is when you end on the tactical, and then you either go to Q&A or you go to the one more thing that’s like- Yeah … emotional. ‘Cause if you can end on an emotional note, that’s really good.

[00:35:11] But thinking about Q&A specifically- It’s such a trap. It’s a trap. Because you cede the control to a group of 500 or more strangers who may or may not, like, you know, we’re, we’re playing Russian roulette here. Yeah. And, and mo- it’s not just control, it’s the emotional impact of the entire talk.

[00:35:31] Mike: Uh-huh.

[00:35:33] Nathan: And so I’ll give you the worst example I’ve ever seen of this.

[00:35:35] Please. Which I kind of feel bad just sharing because he’s a good friend of mine. Um, but it’s, you know, it’s a painful time that I learned the lesson. I was just watching someone else’s pain. Um- … Ramit Sethi gave a killer talk at this big theater in Oakland. It was, uh, Sam Parr’s Hustle Con conference, 2,000 people in the auditorium.

[00:35:54] Ramit kills the talk. It’s so good. Then they’re taking Q&A. Questions are coming in, and they have two mics, right? People are lined up, taking a question, taking a question, and Ramit is just on it. He’s like how James was yesterday- Yeah … where he just, like, polished, nails all of this. And the organizers are kinda, like, gesturing him and is like, “Okay, I’m getting a sign that, you know, we need to wrap up, so we’ll have time for just one more question.”

[00:36:14] And so it’s a total roll of the dice for who gets to control the last-

[00:36:18] Mike: You’re doing such a good job of building tension right now. I’m like, what, do they, like, ask about his nationality? Like, what happens?

[00:36:25] Nathan: Yeah. Yes, is the answer. So this woman comes up and says, “Ramit, when are you gonna be a good Indian son and give your parents grandkids?”

[00:36:33] Stop it. It’s so bad. And so what happened is Ramit has just nailed every part of these last 40 minutes or whatever, perfection, 10 out of 10 execution, and he just looks at them and goes, you know, drops some minor profanity and says, “I’m out,” and walks off stage.

[00:36:51] Mike: Oh, my gosh.

[00:36:52] Nathan: And that was the end of the talk.

[00:36:59] And so it sunk in so deeply not to never do Q&A, but to never end on Q&A.

[00:37:05] Mike: Yeah.

[00:37:06] Nathan: And so what I’ve internalized is the one more thing, where you say, “We’re gonna take some time for questions, and then I have one thought that I wanna leave you with.” Because it lets you do two things. Mm. One, when someone asks that, like, life story question or whatever, it gives you w- the audience and you are on the same page ’cause, like, “Hey, w- we know there’s one more thing.

[00:37:21] It’s not that, oh, do we have seven seconds left or s- seven minutes left to the top of the hour. It’s we still gotta fit in the one more thing. So I, I have permission to cut you off on your long question.” And then two, it would give Ramit the opportunity in that moment to say, “That might be the worst question I’ve ever heard.”

[00:37:38] “Let’s go to that one more thing that I wanted to leave you with.” Right? And you can- And then, of course, the one more thing is an emotional story, a moment, something, something that’s gonna make you feel, something that will land the whole point. So that’s what I learned that lesson.

[00:37:51] Mike: Oh my gosh. Uh. The craziest thing is I’ve always given the example of what if someone asks you a bad question.

[00:38:00] I’ve never actually heard one that is anywhere near that bad. So- When I teach this, I’m always like, “What if their last question is about your shoes?”

[00:38:08] Nathan: Right. ”

[00:38:08] Mike: What do you do? And now da, da, da.” I,

[00:38:10] Nathan: and, and- And they have been hard. Like, there’s some terrible questions. Right. That is insane. Well, what if it’s a pitch for their product, right?

[00:38:15] Or whatever. Oh,

[00:38:16] Mike: that’s wild. Yeah, so again, this is, but this is, this is math of the presentation stuff. So you need to mentally, that one more thing, you need to allocate five minutes for it. And even if it’s not five minute, it’s no big deal. You might have a few minutes early, not a big deal. Right. Uh, you need to allocate five minutes for actual ending.

[00:38:31] So your choices are, uh, end the speech with Q&A… Or sorry, end the speech with call to action, then go Q&A, then one more thing, or have two endings. Hm. Uh, and when I say two endings, that doesn’t necessarily need to be like, “And here’s another creative, wonderful, impressive, unlikely success story from one of my clients,” but it might just be reminding the audience of Al Gen- uh, Pastor Al Jennings.

[00:38:54] Hm. And saying like, “Remember, this happened for Pastor Al Jennings. It can happen for you, too.” It might just be, like, that basic, but you do need something that reminds the audience because you don’t want to get hung out to dry by someone.

[00:39:05] Nathan: And you just, yeah. You wanna control the feeling of it all the way through.

[00:39:14] So, another thing that I’ve learned recently, uh, that’s been helpful for me is… W- well, one thing that I struggle with in a talk is to control the tone and the cadence of it, and, like, the emotional arc of it.

[00:39:26] Mike: Yeah.

[00:39:27] Nathan: Um, I don’t… I’m an understated speaker normally. Mm. I’m not gonna build up to a big emotional thing.

[00:39:33] And a simple, uh, tip that I was given is someone was talking about, like, um, stacking quotes.

[00:39:40] Mike: Yeah, yeah.

[00:39:40] Nathan: So you’d say, like, “Nelson Mandela says this, Mark Twain says that, and I say…”

[00:39:45] Mike: Mm-hmm.

[00:39:46] Nathan: And so you get to build up, and you get to position yourself with this, and it, it, like, naturally builds up into, like, making your point in a big way.

[00:39:52] And it’s probably not for the very end of the talk, but, like, towards the end is your, you know, the culmination of an idea. I’m curious one, what you think of that, and then two, if there are other, like, simple formats that you might use to control the emotional arc.

[00:40:07] Mike: Well, this is a, this is another one where seeing the whole field is helpful.

[00:40:10] So what I mean by that is it’s not just a writing thing, it’s a delivery thing.

[00:40:14] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:40:14] Mike: So I love sta- like, any sort of, like, one-two-three punch. I mean, that’s what comedians learn. Like, that’s, that’s super solid. What you would wanna do there is it’s really important that, that the Quote one, quote two are like pretty fast Mm-hmm, yep And then we slow it down for quote three

[00:40:31] Nathan: Mm.

[00:40:32] Yep

[00:40:33] Mike: By Nathan Barry or Mike Tyson or whoever the third quote is. I think, and I say, or, “And then there’s what Mike Tyson said.”

[00:40:42] Nathan: Right

[00:40:42] Mike: Intentionally go louder because you’re about to go completely silent, silent to allow the audience to c- read the quote that you put on the screen.

[00:40:50] Nathan: Okay, what about humor?

[00:40:52] Mike: Here’s some observations I have about humor. If you’re funny at the beginning, the audience gets tricked into thinking you were funny the whole time. Sir Ken Robinson, I’ve extensive- uh, most popular TED Talk, super, super funny at the beginning. He gets more serious. You walk away thinking he was very funny.

[00:41:08] But if you like track the laughter, and it’s like 75% of the laughter was in the first like, uh, I wanna say like seven minutes of the talk. So it’s very front-loaded, but th- that just tricks the audience into thinking that’s, that’s the whole thing was funny. So that’s one thing. A lot of people aren’t funny.

[00:41:25] I would encourage you to not try to be funny, but what I would encourage you to do is to steal other people’s humor.

[00:41:30] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:41:30] Mike: By which I mean, we’ve got a world of Instagram clips that are funny, reels that are funny, YouTube clips that are funny, and they’re verified because you can see what people thought of them.

[00:41:40] So take that Sir Ken Robinson joke. Ins- when I was at Duarte, we had this Sir Ken Robinson quote, killed every single time.

[00:41:47] Nathan: Hm.

[00:41:48] Mike: Tons of people who worked for Duarte were not funny, but it, it created the illusion they were because this was funny.

[00:41:53] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:41:54] Mike: So using other people’s stuff is funny. And then if you are trying to do, uh, if you are trying to…

[00:41:59] Like, you went down the route of I want this speech to be funny, uh, there are a couple things I would suggest you do with the script. So number one is read it out loud and just feel for yourself like when does it feel like it’s been a long time since the audience laughed? Mm-hmm. And the second thing is, uh, like actually present it to other people, and if they’re not laughing or laughing as hard as you think they should be laughing, take note of that, and then we need to explore if there’s another way of doing it.

[00:42:25] So a lot of times the joke is actually the slide.

[00:42:27] Nathan: Yeah, that’s something that I, that I probably do the most because I watched Stephen Colbert’s segment years ago on The Colbert Report-

[00:42:35] Mike: This is where I got it from …

[00:42:36] Nathan: The Word.

[00:42:37] Mike: Yes.

[00:42:37] Nathan: Yes. Where he delivers a straight monologue, and there are zero jokes in it But random things show up on the screen next to him that are, are the punchline to every joke, and it’s hilarious.

[00:42:49] Mike: And that’s- Katie did that yesterday.

[00:42:51] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:42:51] Mike: And Katie’s not on stage trying to be funny.

[00:42:53] Nathan: Right.

[00:42:54] Mike: But that part where she’s like, “Your landing pages,” I think it was, “Your landing pages suck,” right? Yeah. That was… So she just clicked, let everyone read it, laughter.

[00:43:00] Nathan: Right.

[00:43:01] Mike: She doesn’t have to deliver it.

[00:43:02] Nathan: And then even when she, she had a callback to it, where all she did was gesture to the slide- Yes

[00:43:06] and it got a second laugh.

[00:43:07] Mike: And it’s a callback. And yeah.

[00:43:09] Nathan: It was so good. You made the point of, or I, I guess there’s, there’s two different sides of this. One is you can say something and deliver the punchline on a slide, which takes so much of the pressure off, ’cause was your timing perfect, was your delivery- Yes

[00:43:22] you know, like, are you a great joke teller? I don’t, it doesn’t matter. Like, you said your part, the joke was delivered on the slide. Or the other one that you mentioned is the entire funny thing can come from the video that you played, the GIF, whatever it is. And, like, 80% of that laugh will be translated to like- Yes

[00:43:42] “Oh, Mike’s so funny.”

[00:43:43] Mike: Nobody’s there, and this will maybe weirdo me, like, nobody’s there like, “Well, I mean, she wasn’t the one who came up with that.” Right. But, like, Logan Uri, years ago, I mean, that was one of the Craft and Commerce talks that was so impressive to people, and a lot of it was her clicking two emails she had received.

[00:43:57] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:43:58] Mike: So she was good at recognizing humor. It took the pressure off of her from having to be funny. We think Logan’s funny.

[00:44:04] Nathan: Yeah. Yeah. Those are so good. Um, another thing, you know, you mentioned tension a bunch of times. Tension can be really funny.

[00:44:12] Mike: Mm.

[00:44:13] Nathan: And some of the, the best examples I’ve had is, um, I gave a talk where I t- I was contrasting direct sales with selling on the internet, right?

[00:44:23] And how on the internet you can, uh, you go to a page, and if you don’t like, you just hit the back button. You never get feedback of like, “Oh, Mike, here’s why I didn’t buy your product.”

[00:44:32] Mike: Yes. Yeah.

[00:44:32] Nathan: And I, and I’m just talking about how, like, I make this example of how, like, in direct sales it’d be weird if I sat down across from you and said, “Would you buy this thing?”

[00:44:38] And you just, like, stared at me. Um, and then I kinda played it up a little bit- … and I was like, “It’d be so awkward if you, like, stared at me and then just, like, kinda got up and turned and walked away.” And my friend David was like, “Okay, I like where you’re headed with this, but I need you to play this up a painful amount.

[00:44:55] And so I need you to make contact, like eye contact with someone in the audience. If you kn- find someone you know their name in like the f- second or third row, and say, like, ‘Mike, if I were to… You know, you asked me would you buy my thing,’ and I, like, look at you, and I just stare at you, and then I slowly just turn and walk away.”

[00:45:11] And he had me. He’s like, “I want you to walk all the way to the back of the stage, and I need you to slowly count to 10 in your head.” And it took, like, something that got a little laugh, and it turned it into, like, uproarious laughter. And it landed the point and all that. And the only difference was me doing the exact same thing and doing it in two seconds versus forcing it to draw it out-

[00:45:33] to a ridiculous amount for 10 full seconds. And it was these little tweaks that made a huge difference.

[00:45:38] Mike: That’s amazing. And it’s so funny. I mean, this is true in email, this is true in storytelling, this is true in speeches. It’s incredible how many times it is that Nathan was willing to wait two extra seconds.

[00:45:51] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:45:51] Mike: Four extra seconds, whatever. Yeah.

[00:45:53] Nathan: Okay, I wanna ask you about a problem that I have in speeches. Mm. And I think a lot of speakers do, too. And that is the laugh moments and the applause moments and cueing the audience. Mm. So I do, uh, you know, once a year I do a product announcement speech- Yeah … or something like that, right?

[00:46:10] And there are things that people are really excited about, but if you don’t cue it properly, then they … You get like, right? Like four people are applauding or, or that sort of thing. Or people are like, “Was that a joke?”

[00:46:19] Mike: Yeah.

[00:46:20] Nathan: What do you do to actually- Cue the audience without being pushy or weird or that sort of thing, that, that for the, the laugh or the applause.

[00:46:30] Um, and then how do you sit in it to give them time to follow it through? ‘Cause I see speakers do that all the time as well, where they, maybe they cued it properly and they’re like, “And next.” ”

[00:46:38] Mike: And this is awkward. You’re compelling.” “I can’t handle this. I am going to move on.” Yeah. Uh, pre- so that’s, that’s something you have to do ahead of time-

[00:46:46] Nathan: Mm-hmm

[00:46:46] Mike: is I am going to do this, and if the audience reacts this way, then I will do this. Like, you ha- you need to have rules ahead of time. Mm-hmm. One of the places that’s tricky, this is… I hesitate to say this because Barrett’s already a perfectionist, and now he’s gonna obsess over this. There’s only one thing that I saw Barrett flub yesterday, which was there’s this part where he’s telling the audience about when he had revealed to certain people that he had been abused.

[00:47:14] And he tells, like, a friend, told his brother, and then he told his mom. The part with his mom was supposed to be funny. This is, uh, what his mom said was, “Don’t tell your father.” But the problem, and, and it is funny. Like, that it was intended to be funny. I, I was like, “That’s supposed to be funny, right?” Yeah.

[00:47:29] He’s like, “Yeah.” The problem is we’ve just heard this intense thing, and you’ve not given us permission to laugh. Mm. So the react- and I, for that part, ’cause I knew it was coming, I was looking around the room, and there are all these people that are just like, “Mom.” And what Barrett should have done was to l- so the audience is gonna follow whatever emotions you’re demonstrating.

[00:47:51] Mm. So what he should have done is started laughing. And I’m not saying, like, cracking up, but he, he needs to find the part in his brain where like, “This is actually funny,” and then just start laughing. And he’s like, “And so it should be, and I told my brother, and he said this. And then I told my mom.” And my mom says, “Don’t tell your father.”

[00:48:10] And now the audience knows I can laugh safely. This is

[00:48:12] Nathan: funny to him.

[00:48:13] Mike: Yeah.

[00:48:14] Nathan: Yeah. And so, yeah, that, that pre-laugh, right, you’re setting the… You’re bringing people along in the emotion that you want them to feel.

[00:48:21] Mike: Yeah. So that’s, that’s one of my rules for delivery. The audience will follow the emotions that you’re demonstrating.

[00:48:26] Does not have to say I’m excited. Lots of people do that. It’s like, “I’m very excited to tell you about this product.” Oh, you are? Mm. I know those are the words you’re saying. So, um, there, there’s obviously a version of this that’s too much, and lots of… There’ve been lots of parodies about App- like WWDC goes too far.

[00:48:42] But you need to sound excited about the thing you’re launching. Mm-hmm. Why, why am I gonna be excited about this new product if you’re like, “And, uh, okay, and we’ve got an MCP too.”

[00:48:52] Nathan: Carry the emotion.

[00:48:53] Mike: And the, the, the trick there, where… The reason why it’s usually hard for people is because you’ve known about the MCP for a long time, and it’s not new news for you.

[00:49:03] You need to find the part of… So, uh, actors call this the illusion of the first time. People on Broadway doing the same show night after night, the illusion of the first time. The part of your brain that first learned about the MCP and you’re like, “What? That’s incredible,” you need to channel that when you’re saying the thing.

[00:49:21] So you’re leading the audience like, “Isn’t this amazing?” Like, this thing is gonna totally change your business. I know, I know… You don’t need to literally say those words, but that needs to be the feeling that you have.

[00:49:33] Nathan: Mm. I have actually done that in the past where I, in the speaker notes, I have written in, in brackets the feeling that I’m trying to convey- Yeah

[00:49:40] on that slide, ’cause it’s so important. ‘Cause they’re just, they’re just mirroring you. Was that funny? Can I laugh? Yeah. Am I… Like, am I gonna be the one person who laughs at, like, something that was not supposed to be funny? Yeah. Or, you know, am I supposed to be excited? Am I supposed to be sad? Like, you tell me.

[00:49:55] Mike: You tell me, right. That’s what it is. Yeah. Yeah. So you, the audience will follow the emotions that you demonstrate.

[00:50:00] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:50:01] Mike: Be the emotion you wish the audience to see, as Gandhi might say.

[00:50:05] Nathan: As Gandhi might say. I love that. So we now have this writing partner in AI who will criticize our scripts- Yeah … help us write different scripts.

[00:50:11] Like, how do you use AI on speeches?

[00:50:15] Mike: I don’t use it much. Mm. I think it’s okay to, but… Well, let me tell you a story. Okay. There is a guy I was coaching recently, and he gets paid a lot of money to speak. A lot of money. And he was ru- He ran through his rehearsal, and I’m, like, furiously taking notes, and I get…

[00:50:40] And there’s, like, this one part, and I’m just like, “This part, what is this?” And we finish, and I’m like, “Dude, what was up with point three?” And he’s like, “Oh, yeah, I don’t know if I understood that either. That’s one ChatGPT f- did for me.” I’m like, “Ah, mm-hmm.”

[00:50:56] Nathan: Got it.

[00:50:57] Mike: So there, there are couple issues here. I, I worked with a behavioral scientist last year, and who knows where this AI, like where everything’s going.

[00:51:06] Everybody’s making predictions, and nobody really knows. But he did feel… And this is, this is, like, the guy that Facebook tries to poach to, like, word things differently and, like, put colors on the screen. Like, he’s that level. He’s like, “Regardless of what happens, the first thing is you have to think, and you have to think for yourself,” which sounds obvious, but it’s just easy to skip that.

[00:51:26] And we’ve all done the thing where it’s like, “Analyze that last phone call.”

[00:51:29] Nathan: Mm-hmm. ”

[00:51:29] Mike: What should I have done?” And it makes sense when you read it, and if you were to regurgitate it to someone else, like, you didn’t actually understand it, and this is the real problem. Even if AI gets to the point where it’s writing like, it’s writing like Obama in its prime, the problem is you didn’t write it and you probably didn’t understand it.

[00:51:47] So congratulations, you’ve now become an actor. Did you go to Julliard? Do you remember how– Do you know how to like memorize this stuff? ‘Cause you’re not even acting in a good… Like you’re not, you’re not in Hamilton. It’s not something that’s written wonderfully. You’re talking about like Sass, like a one-act play about Sass that you have to memorize.

[00:52:05] Yeah. You have to understand what you’re talking about. So sure, uh, maybe it’s helpful for certain writing. Uh, I will say that right now, and we’re recording this in June, right now, like here’s just a classic one that it overdoes. So, and a lot of people do this in speeches anyway without AI, which is like, I, I call this like P.T.

[00:52:23] Barnuming, where you’re like, “Maybe you’re this. Maybe you think this. Maybe you think this. Maybe da, da, da,” and it’s like three to five maybes. You just need one really good one. So I know it doesn’t seem like it should matter. It’s like, well, who cares? It’s like seven extra seconds. No, but it’s seven seconds of permission to go think about something else.

[00:52:40] Right. So AI will do that a lot. And the other thing I’ve found, so one of my questions is always, uh, be really harsh, what should I cut?

[00:52:48] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:52:49] Mike: It always wants to cut the best part. I feel like the conclusion everybody comes to about AI when it comes to storytelling, speaking, live events, is I’m gonna lean into the humanity.

[00:53:02] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:53:02] Mike: That’s what speeches always were. That’s not different. Seth Godin, a long time ago, this is like two thousand seven, two thousand eight, he’s like, “The point of a speech is to make an emotional connection with the audience.” That’s still true, and that’s true whether you’re on a stage, that’s true whether it’s a webinar, podcast, whatever.

[00:53:25] And we are trying to educate, we are trying to transform, but it’s like the emotional connection is why we’re there. And, uh, I always find it weird when people are like, “AI will never…” And like I don’t know how anybody can end that sentence confidently. Yeah. But when you are putting a speech together, you absolutely need to think about how this will feel to the audience and your plan of attack there.

[00:53:47] Think about, and it’s like what we’re come back to from the beginning, it’s like the script, the way you deliver it, the slides, how will this feel to the audience? And it doesn’t have to be emotions of tears. Mm-hmm. Emotions of laughter. The slide’s the joke. The slide helps it, right? Like those are the things that you need to think through, and if you have the, if you, if you have AI write your speech Have fun memorizing that

[00:54:08] Nathan: Right.

[00:54:10] Yeah,

[00:54:10] Mike: it’s a- Here’s a better way. Actually, here’s a better way to put it. When I was in high school, I did theater, and I, I was, I was good enough at theater. I would get, like, the third or fourth part in the play. So I had to memorize my lines, and I would just look for… Like, I remember I was this character, Fitzpatrick, right?

[00:54:31] And I was just like, “Where’s Fitzpatrick? Where’s Fitzpatrick?” And, like, turn physical printout of pages, like, turn pages. And I just memorized all of Fitzpatrick’s lines, right? So I was like, “Okay, I’m on page 48. I’ve got this,” and da, da, da. I didn’t know what happened in the play. That’s what a lot of people are doing.

[00:54:46] Nathan: Right.

[00:54:47] Mike: Then there’s my friend Bruce. Understood what was happening in the play. Bruce plays Zendaya’s dad on Euphoria. I don’t think that’s the only reason I didn’t make it to Hollywood, but, like, you have to understand.

[00:55:01] Nathan: Right. You did the work. Yeah. You understood the whole thing, the full context.

[00:55:03] Mike: Yeah.

[00:55:04] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:55:06] I like that. Mike, this has been amazing. We have had a ton of fun working together the last decade or so- Yeah … on all of these speeches. Thank you for, uh, helping us take either really well-known speakers and helping them be a little bit better, or you’ve helped us take a lot of, a lot of speakers at Craft and Commerce who it’s their first speech ever.

[00:55:24] Mike: Yeah.

[00:55:24] Nathan: And, uh, it’s been really special to see that come to life. If people wanna work with you, and they want, you know, they wanna do the same thing that- Yeah … you know, that we do, working together on, on writing the speeches, what are the– what’s the best way to do that?

[00:55:36] Mike: Yeah, so two audiences that are particularly good for me.

[00:55:39] So, uh, people who, uh, are looking to develop a talk, and that doesn’t have to be, like, this talk that you fly all over the world with. But- Mm-hmm … uh, particularly if you’ve written a book or you wanna read a book, or, or sorry, if you’ve written a book or you want to write a book, or just there’s, uh, some thought leadership that you wanna, you wanna get going with, like, that’s a great audience for me.

[00:55:57] Mm-hmm. And the other is, uh, I, I guess I would communicate it like the Nathan Barry that has not done the work to have a bench that can speak for you. Mm. So the founder who is, uh- Flying to every event, doing every podcast interview, and that’s not actually the best use of their time. Like, they should be doing the stuff that they’re great at.

[00:56:17] I help the, I help you develop a bench. Those two are great.

[00:56:20] Nathan: Develop the other leaders in the company. Yeah, develop the other- So this is the, the Haley is the Katie- Yeah … Shiv. Like, for anyone who knows Kit’s team, who, you know, they’re up there doing these incredible things because they’ve put in a ton of work to get to that point.

[00:56:32] Mike: Yeah. Those are the best audiences for, to work for me or work with me. I’ve got a great freebie for you. I mean, we talked a lot- Yeah … about intros. I’ve got seven strategies. Uh, like this freebie’s worth thousands of dollars, honestly. Like, people pay me thousands of dollars for this stuff, and I, I will give you my strategies.

[00:56:47] I will give you a sample for each strategy and a place if you wanna, if you wanna write it yourself that you can practice each stra- each strategy.

[00:56:54] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:56:54] Mike: Let me say that again. A place where you can practice each strategy. So you can go bestspeech.co, so C-O.not com. bestspeech.co/nathan.

[00:57:02] Nathan: Sweet. That’s amazing.

[00:57:04] Yeah. Mike, thanks so much for coming on.

[00:57:05] Mike: Thank you, my friend. Been a pleasure. And Nathan, uh, dude, it is so great to see how much better you are And how much more just at ease you are. There were a couple of things yesterday where you’re just like Nathan of 2017 wouldn’t have done that.

[00:57:22] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:57:23] Mike: There was the one video where it’s you narrating the video.

[00:57:28] Not enough people caught this. This was very funny. It’s you narrating the video that you play out loud. You’ve walked off the stage, you come back on the stage, and you say, “Thanks, Nathan.” I’m like, “There’s no way that Nathan of 2017 would have felt comfortable doing that.” It’s been so cool

[00:57:43] Nathan: to see you improve.

[00:57:45] Oh, it’s fun. Like, working at all of these little things, um, we’ll have to do a, a breakdown of the talk sometime- … and, and, uh, all of that ’cause there were some fun moments- Yeah … to get those jokes in there.

[00:57:54] Mike: But well done, dude. I’m proud of you.

[00:57:56] Nathan: Thank you. If you enjoyed this episode, go to YouTube and search The Nathan Barry Show, then hit subscribe and make sure to like the video and drop a comment.

[00:58:05] I’d love to hear what some of your favorite parts of the video were, and also just who else you think we should have on the show. Thank you so much for

[00:58:12] listening.

[00:00:00] Mallory: There’s six solutions to every problem you’re facing, especially the ones where there feels like there’s only one answer. Most of us can rattle off three

[00:00:07] Nathan: So for you, what would those three be?

[00:00:08] Mallory: For the million dollars? Yeah. Um-

[00:00:10] Nathan: Mallory is a Lululemon Legacy Ambassador, Business Influence of the Year, Shopify Master, and has partnered with brands like Adobe and Uber Eats.

[00:00:18] Mallory: The best thing you can do is be excited about your investing goals.

[00:00:21] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:00:21] Mallory: And so for me, it’s really important to find goals that you actually care about and not that you think you’re supposed to care about.

[00:00:27] Nathan: She scaled her first business, a power lifting apparel brand, to multi six figures while still a student, but it nearly broke her.

[00:00:34] Mallory: I couldn’t even work on my business because I would just be laying in bed in pain. I started losing hair. I started getting unexplainable rashes. I really felt like I had lost that personality. I thought it seemed so crazy and, and impossible.

[00:00:46] Nathan: In this conversation, Mallory breaks down how to use cash flow to buy equity and why buying equity is what actually buys freedom.

[00:00:53] Mallory: When I burnt out building my business, it really made me face the identity piece. I didn’t realize at the time, that now looking back I am really grateful for, is-

[00:01:07] Nathan: Mallory, you built a million dollar net worth by age 29. Pretty massive accomplishment. But you also burnt out along the way at age 22. Yeah. Like, what’s the big contrast between those two moments? And, like, tell us the story.

[00:01:22] Mallory: Yeah. So when I was still in school, I decided to build my first business, which was actually a powerlifting apparel company.

[00:01:28] Nathan: Okay.

[00:01:28] Mallory: Um, I was competing in the sport at the time, and actually just started dating this guy, and we were like, “Let’s build a business at the same time,” because that’s what you do when you start- Always … dating, of course, right? I will preface this with it did work out. We- That’s good … 11 years later, we are still together.

[00:01:42] I wouldn’t probably recommend it ’cause it’s just an odd choice, but for us- Yeah … it really worked. Um, so we started building this business, and at the time, I was already… I always knew that I was into business, so I was already working at a startup in university. Um, I was obviously going to my classes, and then I was competing in powerlifting, which is three-hour-plus gym sessions- Right

[00:02:00] multiple times out of the week. So I very quickly burnt out building that. Um, there was a lot of emotional and mental s- psychological signs that I missed that often happen earlier. And so it wasn’t until the physical signs really started to come. They say your body whispers before it screams, and I definitely ignored the whispers.

[00:02:20] And so it was aggressively screaming at me. Um, I started losing hair. I started getting unexplainable rashes- Yeah … all over my body that, you know, the specialists couldn’t explain. I would wait months and months, um, for an appointment just to be told, like, “Huh, nothing’s wrong.”

[00:02:35] Nathan: Right.

[00:02:36] Mallory: And you’re like, “Well, I’m pretty sure there’s- Something is, something is very wrong

[00:02:38] some show going on.” But- Yeah, and there’s all these different things happening. My gut would react to everything I ate, so I couldn’t even work on my business because I would just be laying in bed in pain, and the worst part was I didn’t even feel like myself anymore. I really felt like I had lost that personality.

[00:02:51] And it’s an interesting age for that to happen- Right … because you’re like, “Is this being an adult?” Like, “Do I just- Right … kinda suck now? Like, am I not as fun?”

[00:02:59] Nathan: And it’s, yeah, it’s an age when everything should be fun and easygoing- Yeah … and, and all of that, but you’ve taken on these massively ambitious goals.

[00:03:06] Mallory: Yeah.

[00:03:06] Nathan: So you were competing as a powerlifter. Were you still working in the startup?

[00:03:11] Mallory: Yep

[00:03:12] Nathan: school full time.

[00:03:13] Mallory: Mm-hmm.

[00:03:14] Nathan: And then, you know, just doing the little, little side venture of- Yeah … building an- a, uh, physical products company from scratch.

[00:03:20] Mallory: Yes, running the inventory out of our studio apartment. Yeah. Yeah, when you say it like that-

[00:03:25] Nathan: Yep

[00:03:26] Mallory: you know, hindsight

[00:03:27] Nathan: is 20/20 And a relatively new relationship as well. Yes. That’s a great point. Some people would be like, “You know, I’m gonna focus on work and my relationships right now, and that’s kinda it.”

[00:03:33] Mallory: Yeah.

[00:03:33] Nathan: And you’re like, “Oh, let’s just-” Let’s

[00:03:34] Mallory: just do it all.

[00:03:35] Nathan: Let’s just do everything. You sound a lot like me.

[00:03:37] Yeah. I think we’re, we’re pretty similar in that, in that way.

[00:03:40] Mallory: Yeah. So I, I burnt out really hard from it, and I think something that often happens when our body reacts to stress- Mm-hmm … is it, it reacts in these interesting ways where you don’t get something that’s a clear diagnosis. You haven’t necessarily broken- Right

[00:03:50] your leg, and you know, you get a cast. So it’s a lot of advocating for yourself when you’re at your lowest, and that- Yeah … can also be really difficult, so I spent about two years going to a whole bunch of specialists. Everyone felt like- Right … “Ah, I, I can fix you. I can fix you,” and you get your hopes up.

[00:04:05] And then, um, every time it feels like, okay, well, this one piece got better. But I had to take a long time to work on my health, and what really changed for me with that was it forced me to look at how I was approaching business. Yeah. I also think this was peak, like it was peak Gary Vee. Yeah. And I know even his perspective has changed since those early videos, but it was like we were having Monster energy drinks.

[00:04:25] You know, we were listening to the Gary Vee videos. It was like hustle screensaver on my phone. And so I realized- Just grind it out … you just grind it out. Mm-hmm. I wanted to approach it differently, and I wanted to actually be the proof point that you can build without burnout. Because I think often when we have these self-care conversations, it becomes, for a lot of us ambitious people, seen as a compromise of like I’m willing to maybe accomplish less, but- and also- Mm

[00:04:48] take care of myself. And I wanted to prove that, hey, I think there’s a way that if you’re doing this in alignment, they can all actually happen.

[00:04:56] Nathan: Okay, so I wanna dive into that. Mm-hmm. But first, on the burnout itself, what were… You were talking about, you know, your body whispering before it screams.

[00:05:02] Mallory: Yeah.

[00:05:03] Nathan: Um, what were some of those whisper signs that if you could go back or you were coaching someone else through it, you’d be like, “Hey, here are the signals- Yes

[00:05:10] that you should actually listen to”?

[00:05:12] Mallory: I think when the issues start as mental- Mm … anything like emotional or psychological, we, we c- think we can just push it down. Right. And I really think I learned, like we- we’re pushing that down into our body. Um, but we think we just know how to like push through it. So for me, it was getting really easily irritated by things.

[00:05:28] I’m never an angry person. Yeah. Like I’ve had my car broken into and I’m like, “Okay, who do we call?”

[00:05:34] Nathan: Right. Like it is what it is. You’re just like, “There’s now a problem to be solved. There’s steps to it. What’s next?”

[00:05:37] Mallory: Yeah, it’s done. Um, but I felt so angry like especially working with a team in that business.

[00:05:43] You know, someone would make a mistake, and I just felt that inside like, “Ah, you’re so- Yeah … like how are you so stupid? Like, why would you do that?” And I never really reacted to things in that way. So that was an early flag for sure. And I think just feeling on the brink of emotional at all times. You know, like the wrong song comes on driving home from my job and I just start crying.

[00:06:01] Right. And you’re like, “Oh, this is good. I’m releasing,” which is true, but you’re also like, “I probably shouldn’t be like this close to tears at all times.” Right.

[00:06:08] Nathan: Such an interesting thing. For me, I- had a similar time where you’re, in hindsight, you’re like, “I was trying to do all of that at once?” Where we, I was working for myself.

[00:06:18] I’d r- uh, had built my audience and, and business, had just had three months of my best revenue possible. I was like, “Okay, I’m gonna scale this up even more.” We had a two-year-old and then a two-week-old.

[00:06:31] Mallory: Mm.

[00:06:32] Nathan: Uh, so, you know, two little kids. They were doing great. Uh, we’d bought a new house, and we were… I was the general contractor on the remodel.

[00:06:40] And like, I s- Yeah, ’cause like

[00:06:41] Mallory: why not?

[00:06:41] Nathan: Oh, yeah, of course. We’re always trying to learn new things. You always, you know. Yeah, yeah.

[00:06:44] Mallory: Great opportunity.

[00:06:45] Nathan: All of that. Save some money as well. And yeah. And then one day… Well, really what had happened is when the kids both got sick at the same time and stopped sleeping, and then it, like, all fell apart.

[00:06:55] Um, but yeah. And then one day I woke up with a big rash on my leg, and I was like, “Figure out what that is.” And it turns out it was shingles, and, you know, that was, like, the big crash and burn for me, where it took a long time for me to admit that, like, oh, this is totally unsustainable.

[00:07:08] Mallory: Totally.

[00:07:09] Nathan: But then also, like, it ends up taking…

[00:07:11] I, I think I had this idea before of like, okay, I will push to the limits because I’m very driven. I wanna accomplish all of these things. And when I find the limit, I’ll just dial it back a little bit.

[00:07:20] Mallory: Mm.

[00:07:20] Nathan: Or similar to your power lifting, I’ll be stronger. And so I, you know, I’ll either be able to handle it, or if I’m, feel like I’m close to, you know, the limit, I’ll just dial it back a little bit.

[00:07:31] It’ll be fine. And I crashed and burned hard. Like, it probably took me two years-

[00:07:37] Mallory: Mm-hmm …

[00:07:37] Nathan: to get back to level I was before. And so I didn’t realize the level that I was, like, playing with fire. And was it similar for you?

[00:07:44] Mallory: Yeah, absolutely. And I think it’s such a good and dangerous quality that a lot of us have where, like, the limit keeps moving.

[00:07:50] Nathan: Right.

[00:07:51] Mallory: Right? So once we achieve the thing that we never thought was possible- Mm-hmm … it opens up our eyes, and we go, “Oh, wow, I can dream even bigger, and what else could be possible?” But then if we’re saying we’re gonna deal with our health or prioritize our happiness after those things-

[00:08:04] Nathan: Right …

[00:08:04] Mallory: when does that really come?

[00:08:05] And it either doesn’t come, or similarly to your point, we get forced into it, so we end up in this cycle where we focus on the business, and then we have to focus on the health, right? Mm-hmm. We have to take the step back from the business, focus on that. And sometimes when we’re in that health journey, then it becomes a mental health journey where, you know, founders get depressed because they feel so physically exhausted- Right

[00:08:24] and now the business maybe isn’t thriving. And so we’re just constantly going in this cycle of business priority, then health priority, and then happiness. And then once we’re happy again, we feel like we can thrive in the business. And so I think looking at it as, “Okay, what if we stop doing that semi-toxic relationship- Yep

[00:08:38] and looked at how can we actually build all three into it?”

[00:08:42] Nathan: Mm-hmm. Yeah, that makes sense. And then what did it look like, or what happened to the business as you realized, like, “Oh, I can’t function like this anymore”?

[00:08:50] Mallory: Yeah. For us, what we did was first remove myself a bit from the business- Yeah … because we were also going to a lot of in-person events.

[00:08:56] Mm-hmm. That was a main lead generator for us, was in-person events and Instagram. Um, so I took the step back, and that really forced me to work on things but also think about what is it that we’re building. We had a few interesting things happening at the same time. Um, we were always designed to give back, so for every item we sold, we provided one month of clean water to a community- Yeah

[00:09:15] that needed it. And when we worked with athletes, we would do different charities that were significant to them. And so I felt like we were really, you know, existing to do good, but then we were also starting to play more and more into this, like, consumerist culture of we were dropping bigger collections every time, more and more clothing.

[00:09:32] And I got to a point where I’m like, “I actually don’t even need new items- Right … for my stuff. Like, how do other people need new stuff?” And so this was all kind of happening at the same time. And so we thought about, “Okay, do we wanna sell T-shirts for the rest of our lives? Like, what did we think about with this business?”

[00:09:46] Because, you know, I’ve learned since then to think about those things going in. We weren’t, at the time, thinking about building this business to sell. We weren’t thinking about so many of those things because we didn’t really have those examples in our life. Mm-hmm. Um, we were, for both of us, like, the first entrepreneurs in our family.

[00:10:01] Right. So we were just kind of running with it. Um, so it forced us to kind of stop, and then honestly- It just gave us that moment of like, “Hey, is this our opportunity to go to the next thing?” And for us too, we had felt like we had this collision of creativity and finances. And I remember, ’cause when we started, keep in mind when it’s a side hustle, I think this is familiar for a lot of people, it’s all out of passion.

[00:10:22] It’s all out of fun. Every win is a big win. Yeah. Right? And so for us it started to feel like, oh, now there’s a lot of financial pressure on the creative things, and it made it so much harder for me to come up with designs. ‘Cause we were ultimately designing apparel. Right. Right? So all of a sudden it became like, “Hey, we need this collection to really hit to pay off that Amex.”

[00:10:41] And I

[00:10:41] Nathan: was like- There was a lot of stress on it. Yeah. ‘Cause early on, you know, that $1,000 you made on the side is incredible. Right. And you’re like, “Oh, and I had leverage in it in this way. Like, that was so good.” And then later it’s the, “Well, it has to make at least $1,000 because otherwise we can’t make rent.”

[00:10:54] Mallory: Yes.

[00:10:55] Nathan: And, and not only that, but it has to make the same amount of money, like, next week and the week after.

[00:11:01] Mallory: Mm-hmm. I know-

[00:11:02] Nathan: Yeah,

[00:11:03] Mallory: that’s a totally different thing … I’ve always felt like having no budget can actually be a really great, um, strength in a business because- Okay … you have to get so creative. Yeah.

[00:11:10] Like, the way we would problem solve in the beginning was always, like, really interesting. It would just force you to come up with things that other people wouldn’t think of. And then as the business is growing and you are seeing that money come in, you’re like, “Oh, let’s sponsor this event for $10,000,” when before we would, you know, always do our booths for free.

[00:11:26] Mm-hmm. And were we really thinking through all of the things we should consider with making that sponsorship? So it was kind of, you know, coming to a head where we were spending more, and we honestly felt like we were kind of zeroed out financially for how we felt inside too, right?

[00:11:40] Nathan: Okay.

[00:11:40] Mallory: Like, I just feel so incredibly horrible in my body right now, and then also this business we made to make money is, like, not really making us that much money.

[00:11:50] Um, and so we, we looked at that and we were like, “Well, this isn’t great.” So we put the business on pause, and we had talked to a few people. We were looking at selling it. But at the time with my health, I was like, “I can’t imagine doing the transition that’s required- Mm-hmm … to properly hand this off,” especially in something like a niche community where it is so intertwined.

[00:12:09] Yeah. Um, we’re like, “You know what? I think for looking at the value we could sell it for, we would rather maintain the ownership of the brand- Mm-hmm … um, and just see if it’s something that ever, like, comes back around.”

[00:12:20] Nathan: Yeah. If you wanna revisit it in the future.

[00:12:22] Mallory: Mm-hmm.

[00:12:22] Nathan: There’s a quote that I wanna get your reaction to.

[00:12:25] Mallory: Okay.

[00:12:26] Nathan: And that’s that rock bottom is a pretty good foundation to build a new life from.

[00:12:30] Mallory: Ooh, I love that.

[00:12:31] Nathan: I’m curious what you think.

[00:12:33] Mallory: I love that. I, I think it’s so true. Um, I was thinking about this i- in the car ride over. I was just watching a documentary actually about a cult.

[00:12:41] Nathan: Yep.

[00:12:41] Mallory: And- As

[00:12:41] Nathan: one does.

[00:12:42] Mallory: As one does.

[00:12:43] Um, I will watch any cult documentary. Absolutely, sign me up. Um, but to make a long story short, some of the women ended up actually landing in prison, um, for their role in trying to evade the police in the end, and it, prison was the best thing that ever happened to them- Mm-hmm … because it got them out of the cult mentality, and it was the first time they were able to sit with their thoughts and think about what they really wanted and see right from wrong.

[00:13:05] And I was like, “Oh, this is kind of similar to my burnout experience,” because it was the first time where you had to step back from the business and then go, “Is this the thing that I want? And what do I really want out of the next thing?”

[00:13:16] Nathan: Hmm. Okay, so what did it look like to… ‘Cause now- There’s only seven years between burnout and a million dollar net worth, which most people would take them far longer than that.

[00:13:26] Like, if you ch- achieve a million dollars by, in net worth by 40, that’s like, you’re way ahead. You know? Right. Most of that compounding, that gain, uh, comes in, like, at 50 years old, 60 years old, and beyond. Um, so what was the process of rebuilding?

[00:13:41] Mallory: So, um, I think the burnout ended up being around 24. Okay.

[00:13:46] Like, we were building a business. Yeah, so maybe- Oh,

[00:13:48] Nathan: so even, even shorter than that.

[00:13:48] Mallory: Yeah. Like, not to, not to brag too much.

[00:13:50] Nathan: You’re bragging too much, but it’s not seven years. It’s five.

[00:13:52] Mallory: I was like, “I had seven years to do that?” Nope. You had five. Um, no. Most of it was, like, within the five-year time period. Yeah.

[00:13:58] Um, yeah. So what I did practically speaking was I’m like, “I got bills to pay.” Mm-hmm. “What’s a skill set I can utilize that I already have?” So I got two social media contracts for businesses I knew- Okay … and I ran their social media, um, for about eight months’ time, because- How

[00:14:12] Nathan: much were you charging to run those accounts?

[00:14:14] Mallory: Um, like- Just under 2,000 maybe each Okay.

[00:14:18] Nathan: So this is like I get those two accounts, um, and then that will cover my expenses- Yep … and, like, the financial pressure is relieved.

[00:14:25] Mallory: Absolutely. Yeah. And I wanted to take a little space because I learned from that first business. Mm-hmm. We just jumped in and kept running.

[00:14:31] I wanted to really take a beat to say, like, “What do I actually want to build and what do I want that to look like?” So giving myself that time was really helpful, and I just kind of optimized the business to a point. I was paying someone else to, like, do the posts, so I was really spending, like, one morning a week making this content.

[00:14:45] And then I just had space to think about these things of, what do I need to do? A big thing for myself is I know I get bored easily. Yeah. And so that can be bad in a business. I think a lot of us have experienced that. Entrepreneur with ADHD is- Yeah. So … a

[00:15:00] Nathan: blessing and a curse.

[00:15:00] Mallory: Absolutely. So I knew I wanted to actually stop running away from that and stop trying to fix it and actually build the boredom into my business.

[00:15:07] Okay. So looking at things like, um, I started running a group program because we had always built our businesses through social media. So I’m like, “I can teach this to people,” but I know if I teach it over and over and over again in a cohort, I’m gonna get bored- Yeah … of saying the same thing. So I looked at, okay, do it as a cohort once, and then we’re moving it into a course for- format.

[00:15:26] Mm. So looking at these things of a course, you know, it might take updates, but I can be more and more r- removed from it, right? So really looking at, how can I create a business that actually supports how my brain works- Mm-hmm … and how I like to live my life. And so that was really helpful in changing it.

[00:15:40] And so I started building the coaching and consulting business. Um, and that’s what I did. I started with a group program. I moved to some live workshops. The timing of that, um, COVID came around, which you’d think would be bad, but everybody was at home- Right. Yeah … deciding they wanted to start a business.

[00:15:55] So it was a really interesting experience because I was hosting these live workshops, and they took off way more than expected because people were like, “Oh, I’m realizing maybe my 9:00 to 5:00 isn’t as stable,” as people were being laid off- Right … and all of that. So I started building the business. Um, and then as we approached this business, I find that we have these really siloed conversations.

[00:16:15] We have people who talk about health and wellness over here. We have people who talk about building a business o- over here. And then even within finance, we have the stock market people, and we have- Yeah … the real estate investors, and the cryptos, I guess. Right. That would be the other one. They’re like, ”

[00:16:28] Nathan: Don’t leave us out.”

[00:16:28] Mallory: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Um, and so I wanted to look at, like, how do we build more cohesively? Mm-hmm. How do I put in the boundaries to actually make sure that I stay healthy? Because once you’ve experienced something like that, I’m sure- Right … you can relate to that. Yep. You don’t wanna do it again. Um, and then how can I look at finances as the vehicle?

[00:16:47] So looking at, how can the business support both current me and future me? And kind of looking at that under all angles, both the habits, um, the finances, and what I would call, like, your dream life or that’s the happiness piece really. So with my finances, looking at, okay, what part of the business or maybe the whole business itself is going to fund that stability side, right?

[00:17:08] Mm-hmm. How do we make sure my bills are paid? Because I do think for most of us creatives, like, that’s a good baseline to have to make sure that we’re not making choices that don’t necessarily align, or we’re panicking and going after the trends instead of what we- Right … really wanna build. So how can your finances cover that?

[00:17:23] And then looking at what’s gonna be the bigger vehicle. And so for us, the bigger vehicles was the investment piece. Mm-hmm. And looking at first buying real estate, and then building our stock market portfolio. And so that’s really the approach I took. And I think what I didn’t realize at the time, that now looking back I am really grateful for, is realizing that that chapter, it was okay to build something that wasn’t necessarily scalable in its current format.

[00:17:47] Okay. And I think with creators, we face this a lot, right? You wanna get out of coaching because you either need to build coaches under you, or you have to turn it- Yeah … into the courses. And I realized-

[00:17:56] Nathan: And everyone, everyone will tell you, like, “Oh, you’re trading time for money. It’s not scalable.” Yeah. “This will never work.”

[00:18:00] Mallory: Right. And you’re like, what if I trade time for money, but I get paid really well to do it?

[00:18:04] Nathan: And then I trade money for equity-

[00:18:06] Mallory: Right …

[00:18:06] Nathan: through the stock market or real estate or whatever else.

[00:18:08] Mallory: Exactly. And so that’s what I realized is like, hey, I’m in a phase, especially it being COVID- Mm-hmm Thinking about like in those, those early years, like we were not leaving our home, let alone traveling.

[00:18:18] So I’m like, “If I’m gonna be stuck, I can spend a lot more time on calls than I would- Right … like in a regular life, because I’m barely going outside let alone like on a plane. Um, so really looking at, okay, what are the things in my business that can be high profit and keep it really lean, and move that money into the next vehicle, really funnel that cash into the investments.

[00:18:38] And I think that’s what a lot of creators and personal brands miss- Mm-hmm … is we’re like spending so much energy, like I did in the first business, on building the business because we think that’s how people get the money, right? Right. Is at, at the end, there’s like a little golden pot waiting for us. Um, but looking at how can I actually build that into the business from the start.

[00:18:57] Nathan: Let’s go to like revenue versus profit, ’cause a lot of- Mm-hmm … creators that I, I see, they’re very focused on top-line revenue.

[00:19:02] Mallory: Mm-hmm.

[00:19:02] Nathan: Because that’s a credibility indicator in the space. Like, oh, uh, you know, he did 500,000 in revenue last year. She did a million. Uh, someone else just… You know, she had a million-dollar launch, you know?

[00:19:13] Or, or that sort of thing. Yeah. And then you end up repeating that line over and over again because it, it gives credibility, and, um- Mm-hmm … and there’s nothing wrong with it, it is you end up optimizing for the wrong thing. It’s like, uh, in my world, in the software space, the number that people quote or used to quote is head count.

[00:19:31] How’s business going? Oh, great. We went from 50 to 100 people last year. Yeah. You know? And you f- like, you subconsciously optimize. Uh, like your brain is like going, “Oh, so head count’s what, what matters? Okay. W- we can get more head count. We can hire more people.” Yeah.

[00:19:42] Mallory: How cool is the office, right?

[00:19:44] Nathan: Yeah,

[00:19:44] Mallory: exactly.

[00:19:44] Those kind of

[00:19:45] Nathan: things. All of those things. And so the first s- like leap that I see these creators make is they realize, oh, I shouldn’t optimize for revenue. That matters. It’s a key part of the equation, but, but profit and net income is actually what matters more. Mm-hmm. The leap that I’ve seen you make is where you go- Well, what, what am I doing with that profit?

[00:20:05] Mallory: Yeah.

[00:20:05] Nathan: And how am I turning that into assets that are gonna compound? Because there’s all of these creators that, you know, say do a million in revenue, do 5 or $600,000 in profit a year, and then spend most of it.

[00:20:21] Mm-hmm.

[00:20:21] Nathan: And very little actually makes it into something that builds longterm equity value.

[00:20:25] Mallory: Yeah, and keep in mind, when you’re getting into those larger revenue numbers, the team is growing usually too.

[00:20:30] Right. And a lot of entrepreneurs maybe don’t want to manage a team, and I’ve seen that happen too. I think that can be the entrepreneur trap too. Yep. Similar to the headcount, right? You’re like, “Oh, I have, I have this big team,” and then you realize, “I actually never wanted the big team, and I really liked being lean with, like, an assistant or a few small roles.”

[00:20:47] Um, so I, I feel like I see people falling into that trap a lot.

[00:20:50] Nathan: Right. Okay, so how do you think about, uh, taking the profit in your, in your business and what, you know, gets spent on lifestyle and what gets spent on, um, acquiring assets?

[00:21:02] Mallory: Mm-hmm. I think if … the best thing you can do is be excited about your investing goals.

[00:21:07] Yeah. And so for me, it’s really important to find goals that you actually care about and not that you think you’re supposed to care about. So for us, we have always loved real estate. Uh-huh. So we knew we wanted to buy a property. And so it makes it a lot easier to put that money first towards a down payment and then spend the rest that’s left over versus spending first and, like, slowly saving- Yep

[00:21:27] for that house because we knew, like, we wanna buy this soon, so how do we get there quickly? And then you realize, like, a lot of the things that we end up spending on in day to day is just stuff.

[00:21:36] Nathan: Right.

[00:21:36] Mallory: Right? And if you’re getting closer to that goal, it’s similar to hitting the gym, to be honest. Yeah. Like, with a bench press, you know when, like, you maybe only added five pounds but it moves so much better?

[00:21:45] Oh, yeah. And you’re like, that small win just feels so good.

[00:21:48] Nathan: I’m all about those two and a half- Ah … five pound plates. It’s like- Yeah, yeah … you know, throw those on the barbell. Yeah. You know, it’s always a joke. You’ll have, like, I don’t know, a deadlift, you know, and you’ve got a bunch of big 45 pound plates on there.

[00:21:57] And you’re like, “Yeah, but, but throw those two and a half on.” The little one on the bench. ‘Cause that gives you the tiny, tiny gain.

[00:22:01] Mallory: And you’re like, “Did you see how it moved?”

[00:22:03] Nathan: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. But what, what I was thinking about is, or what I hear, heard you say in that is almost that you get to choose where you get your dopamine from.

[00:22:12] Mallory: Absolutely.

[00:22:12] Nathan: And so do you get your dopamine from the trip to the mall, and the new handbag, or the new iPhone, or whatever else? Or do you get it from going, “Hey, we’ve got a … We’re trying to do a $50,000 down payment.” Yeah. “And I was able to just get another 2,500 bucks-

[00:22:28] Mallory: Yeah …

[00:22:28] Nathan: in there and knock it out.”

[00:22:29] Mallory: And I think it doesn’t

[00:22:30] Oh, like, sometimes people hear that, and they think they have to sacrifice, like, the little things they like. Mm-hmm. But the way I would do it is, like, let’s get to the down payment first, and if I have a really great year in business, I should be able to still buy the iPhone at the end of the year. Right.

[00:22:41] Right? Um, and just making those things the things that excite you the most. And I also like a challenge, so I’m like, if I wanna see … Like, the whole million dollars by 29 was because my mom’s boss growing up I knew was a millionaire by 30. Oh, yeah. And I thought it was the coolest thing. And it was, like, the closest example.

[00:22:57] Yeah. When I mentioned, like, we didn’t have a lot of examples of that. And so I just went, like, “I wanna do that,” and I thought it seemed so crazy a- and impossible. And it wasn’t till we sat down with something at, like, 28, I was like, “Oh, I’m actually gonna do this. Like, I’m gonna do it a year early even.”

[00:23:11] Right. Um, and so for me, that’s been a big thing, is it forces you to get creative with it. So I do this thing called the Six Solutions Theory. Okay. And it’s that … The theory is- There’s six solutions to every problem you’re facing, especially the ones where there f- feels like there’s only one answer. Mm.

[00:23:28] And so I actually got this from a real estate investor where he said he always has three exits for a building, and I was like, “Double it. Give it to the next person.” Okay. Why not? You know, three felt easy, right? ‘Cause you’re like, oh, like rent it, sell it, live in it, whatever, right? Yep. Um, so I started looking at everything as how could I come up with six solutions to what I wanted to do.

[00:23:47] So if I want to have a million dollars invested, what’s six different ways I can do it? And I think most of us can rattle off three pretty easily, right?

[00:23:54] Nathan: So for you, what would those three be?

[00:23:56] Mallory: For the million dollars? Yeah. Um, well, within the business, right, it could be like, do you take on more coaching clients?

[00:24:01] Do you raise your rates? Do you launch a membership? Is there a completely different venture that you go off into? Mm-hmm. Do you choose to go, like, the super frugal route, like where you’re eating ramen noodles for 90 cents and, like, living with the power off, right? Yep. But you can look at all those options to quickly go, like, “Well, those ones don’t appeal to me, um, but these ones do,” right?

[00:24:20] And I find when you do those six, sometimes it just lets you get out of that box of being like, “I might need, like, a silly kind of crazy idea.” And a lot of the times, the ways that we’ve been able to build the wealth is by going like, “Well, what if we just did this thing,” right? And it feels like the thing you’re maybe scared to say out loud ’cause someone else might be like, “Well, that’s kind of, like, a weird idea.”

[00:24:39] Like, even when we were buying properties, like, we didn’t go, “Can we buy a property a year for three years?” But once we did the first one, I’m like, “What if we could do it again next year?” Right. Right? And just opening that up makes you go like, “Okay, well, let’s actually look at a plan,” because if you’re never putting it on the table, it’s absolutely not gonna happen.

[00:24:57] But if you start to do that thing where you’re opening up your eyes to what the other options are, I think it’s really helpful, and it helps you find the answer that you’re excited about. Because s- a lot of the times, like we were talking about with the head count, right, you’re scaling in a way that you think you’re supposed to scale.

[00:25:10] But when you start to do this and realize, well, here’s this thing over here that I actually want, and now I’m realizing there’s actually six ways I can get there, I don’t feel the same pressure to do the traditional way of getting there.

[00:25:21] Nathan: It makes me think of v- my one semester of art school before I realized that art school was not for me.

[00:25:26] Um, where the one thing they t- taught us was thumbnailing. ‘Cause people would say, like, “Okay, I’m gonna, you know, make this sketch or do a painting or whatever else, and so I guess I’m gonna do it like this.” And everyone would just start. And so they would make us fold up a piece of paper until it made, I don’t know, 10 squares or something like that.

[00:25:43] Mallory: Mm-hmm.

[00:25:43] Nathan: And you had to do 10 different… You had to fill every square-

[00:25:47] Mallory: Mm-hmm …

[00:25:47] Nathan: with a different possible composition, and then you’d look at, once you had all 10, you’re like, getting to five was easy. And then you’re like, “I don’t, I don’t know. How, what other ways could I look at this?” And it was actually really hard to get to 10.

[00:25:58] And then you’d go, “Okay, now let me choose one of these,” and it was usually one of the later ones.

[00:26:03] Mallory: Yeah.

[00:26:03] Nathan: So it was like- Uh, most likely one of the later ones ch- ended up being your solution. Or if it ended up being an early one, you could pursue it with confidence because you’ve explored every single opportunity.

[00:26:14] And I actually remember, um, you know, where my career ended up going was into software design, and the, uh, designers for, uh, on the iPhone team, right, doing the iPhone UI, they had a similar rule where they had to create thumbnails of 10 different concepts or how they lay out an interface before they were allowed to pick one and move forward.

[00:26:34] And so it’s exactly like your six solutions thing- Mm-hmm You have to brainstorm and expand your thinking before you choose one to go all in on.

[00:26:41] Mallory: Yeah. And sometimes it’s the one too that you’re like, “I didn’t even think that was an option.” Right. Right? Is, is that thing that you secretly want. I see that a lot where, you know, people are kind of doing a roundabout way to get the thing they want.

[00:26:53] I remember talking to someone at an event, and she told me, you know, she’s going to fashion school, and she’s gonna build up this whole business that eventually can then have a not-for-profit arm off of it- Right … to help, um, young women with certain things. And I was like, “Well, why don’t you just build the not-for-profit?

[00:27:09] Like, if you wanna go to fashion school and build that business, that’s fine.” Right. “But when, what I hear you saying is that that’s the thing you’re really passionate about, and is there a world where that’s what you could do now?” Where you could do that now. Yeah. And the answer sometimes is yes, and sometimes no, but it lets you go, “Well, okay, let’s look at an actual plan for that.”

[00:27:24] Nathan: So I wanna get specific on how you got to that million dollar net worth, and the investment process in there. So it sounds like you started with real estate. Mm-hmm. What did it look like to get to the first down payment, and, and then the first purchase?

[00:27:33] Mallory: Mm-hmm. So I’m really big on education too, and one of the things we did actually was my partner got his real estate license after the first business because we knew we wanted to get into real estate.

[00:27:42] Mm-hmm. So we were like, “What’s the closest way to learn it?” So he got his license and started trading. And so I feel like that alone gave us an in because we better understood, like, what makes a good offer. Um, we had a good idea of the market, so when we saw a house that was a good opportunity, we knew how to jump on it.

[00:27:58] So that would be kind of that pre-step one. And then in the business, um, I was focusing on putting all of that revenue, essentially anything that wasn’t covering my bills was going towards that down payment. So we purchased the first house, and we were really lucky too in that at the time where we lived, real estate really had a spike, which happened for a lot of places during- Yeah

[00:28:18] the pandemic. Um, so we built equity very quickly in that property simply by the value going up so much. And so for our second property, we looked at, okay, how do we buy a second property? And one of the things that can make the down payment smaller is if you’re willing to move into it, so if it’s a new primary.

[00:28:36] Right. So then we looked at, oh, well, where would we wanna live? Because we were doing this dance of do we buy, you know, some sort of rental property and explore doing this. And you know, a lot of people on the real estate rental side, it’s like buy these maybe lower income spaces and navigate that. And we thought, “Okay, that’s gonna be a lot as first time landlords.”

[00:28:54] And so what we, we looked at, hey, we’d like to move back more central in the city. We were living in the suburbs. So we decided, okay, well, if we move, win-win. We get new life experiences, and we can do less of a down payment. And so we actually took money out of the first property.

[00:29:08] Nathan: So you did a, like a cash out refinance?

[00:29:10] Mallory: Yeah, we, um, because we had the, the equity that had grown- Right … we were able to pull from it. Okay. And so we used that for- The down payment on the new house- Mm-hmm … and then also to renovate it slightly before. We just did new paint and new floors. Um, but that was really cool because even though the business revenue was still coming in, we actually didn’t really pull from any personal income- Right

[00:29:31] or business revenue to buy the second property. And then-

[00:29:34] Nathan: And that’s an important tweak of saying like, “Oh, if we move into this house-” Yes … “then, um, the, the interest rates are lower.” You know, the down payment can often be lower and all that.

[00:29:43] Mallory: Yeah.

[00:29:43] Nathan: Because at least, uh, in the US, you get in these categories of, uh, okay, is it single family or multifamily?

[00:29:51] Mallory: Mm-hmm.

[00:29:51] Nathan: You know, multifamily adds interest rate. Right. You know, and, uh, you know, is it personal or investment? Um, you know, there’s all these sort of categories- Yes … that raises the rates and raises the down payment.

[00:30:03] Mallory: Mm-hmm.

[00:30:03] Nathan: And they’re very favorable to, “Oh, you wanna live there? Okay, great.”

[00:30:06] Mallory: Right. ”

[00:30:06] Nathan: We’ll give you the easiest option there.”

[00:30:07] Mallory: Right. And again, when we look at these lifestyle choices of knowing, hey, we’re both building businesses right now, what feels like the lowest lift of a tenant? And so we got a tenant in the first property, but because- Mm … it was like a suburb home, like it was a home that we loved living in, we knew- Right

[00:30:21] it would bring in a certain quality of tenant that probably wouldn’t be a lot of work, and also that home itself didn’t need a lot of work. Yeah. It wouldn’t be things breaking down all the time. Um, so we moved into that second property, and then we… That was when we were like, “We wanna do it again next year,” but now we’re not sure if we’re kind of pushing, like figuring out how to make that happen.

[00:30:38] Right. And we had always wanted a cottage. So I grew up with a cottage, um, a family cottage that was passed down, and it was just, like, so impactful to me and loved having those experiences. And then, uh, my partner Josh, he’s Filipino, and most of his family had never been to a cottage before. And so we would- Yeah

[00:30:53] bring his cousins up to my cottage, and it was really lovely, but my cottage is three hours away from where we lived. And so it’s not very practical for people, especially doing like shift work and things like that. So we were like, “I would love to have a cottage near the city.” So again, we started looking at the numbers and asking those questions of like, “What’s the six different ways we could do this?”

[00:31:12] And, you know, I, I would also suggest leaning on people in that. Like, we have a mortgage broker on speed dial. We just call him, and he always says like, “I love you guys ’cause you ask me the craziest questions.” ‘Cause we’re like- Right … “Can you do this?” And like, “Does this work? Is this gray area?” Like, “Okay, but what if we wanted to do it this way?”

[00:31:28] And so that was really helpful because buying a cottage is considered a secondary home. Yep. So even though we weren’t moving into it, we were once again able to do a smaller down payment, and we did it through a private sale as well, which I think we got a really fantastic deal on it because of that, knowing they didn’t wanna go through, um, the whole process of listing.

[00:31:46] And then we were able to renovate that We actually, um, we used, like, a home equity line of credit- Yep … to buy the cottage. So it was almost like buying it cash, um, in terms of the sale itself. And then we were able to mortgage it after we renovated it. So-

[00:32:02] Nathan: Uh, get a higher appraisal and all of

[00:32:04] Mallory: that. Exactly.

[00:32:05] Nathan: Okay. So what was your active income around the time that you, uh, made the first purchase? And then, like, and what was the down payment? How did you save up for it?

[00:32:13] Mallory: Mm-hmm. The first year, I think it was around 250K in revenue at the time. Okay. And my business has always stayed very lean. I think I was, like, traumatized from a product-based business.

[00:32:24] So I was just like, “How do I make everything? I don’t want inventory. I don’t want all of these things.” Um, so I kept a really lean business. I had some savings from before, and then it was really just funneling the money into the down payment, um, myself and my partner And yeah, I think it was around the 250K mark for that part.

[00:32:43] Nathan: And then, yeah, and then you already talked about how to get the second one- Mm-hmm … using the equity from the first. So you built up the real estate side.

[00:32:49] Mallory: Mm-hmm.

[00:32:50] Nathan: And why’d you stop at three properties? What was the-

[00:32:52] Mallory: We were starting to push it of, like- Yeah … on paper, what anyone would approve us for. Right. Um, and this is where I was talking about, like, learning along the way.

[00:32:59] You know, finding out, like, okay, at what point do you move these into, um, corporate? Like- Yeah … at what point does a corporation buy this? Because also, when you are self-employed, especially if you’re incorporated, you’re paying yourself out a salary. Like, we pay a salary just so we could buy real estate.

[00:33:13] Right. Like, whatever it was on paper, and looking at, like, okay, at what point can you not get approved?

[00:33:17] Nathan: And you, you’re looking at your investment portfolio and saying like, “Okay, I’m now overweight in real estate.” Yeah. And then, so it sounds like then you turned to the stock market. Yes. And you set some very specific goals around that.

[00:33:27] Mallory: Yeah, so we were like, okay, this is really great that we have those properties, and we had started just very baseline investing in the stock market. And then a lot of the times what my goals have been is looking at other people and going like, “Well, that seems cool.” Yeah. “And I’m attracted to that.” Um, and I, I honestly think i- especially if you don’t have those role models, and you’re learning everything from, like, the internet or people you’re asking questions to, it’s not a bad place to start.

[00:33:52] Because you can start by shooting for that big number, and then along the way you’re figuring out more and more, like, hey, is this actually for me or not? And does this make sense with my goals? Do I actually have to go bigger or smaller? Or whatever it might be. And so I had a friend that said she was aiming to have a million dollars invested.

[00:34:06] So I just said, “Okay me too.”

[00:34:08] Nathan: I’ll, I’ll

[00:34:09] Mallory: do that. Yeah. I’ll do that. That sounds good. Um, and it was like- I’ll have

[00:34:12] Nathan: what she’s having.

[00:34:13] Mallory: Exactly. Yeah, I was like, that sounds great. Um, learned more and more about investing through that process. Um, and started really focusing on the investment side of things. And same thing kind of happened, being so excited about those goals allowed me to really focus on that and not feel the need to have all the extra shopping purchases or things like that.

[00:34:34] Right.

[00:34:35] Nathan: And then what was the process of, like, you know, you just putting into the S&P 500, the index funds? And, and then how much were you compounding each year?

[00:34:45] Mallory: Yeah, primarily. So COVID was also really great for- Right … investment portfolios, which is nice. We very much stayed simple. Like, um, yeah, just- Anything that’s like a safe stock.

[00:34:56] I was not doing a lot of stock picking or things like that. For me it’s like, okay, a million dollars can be the baseline in steady things. Mm-hmm. And then along the way looking at the same … We kind of did the same thing of once we started to get closer to that number, we’re like, “Okay, now this is like a lot in stock.

[00:35:10] Should we explore other things?” Right. And we had, um, an angel investment opportunity that kind of landed in our lap. And we’re like, “Okay, this is gonna be the riskiest one yet, but if it works, you know, it really works.” And e- every time we, we did this, I really took it as a learning experience of, okay, well, whether we do this angel investment or not, let’s go th- through the process.

[00:35:29] Let’s talk to the accountants. Um, I love using accountants as a resource too, because they have clients who do way more interesting things than we do. Right.

[00:35:36] Nathan: And they can show you all these different examples.

[00:35:37] Mallory: Yes. Yeah. And th- they know how people are doing it in the back end. Um, so looking at like, okay, if we wanna do this, what are we looking at?

[00:35:44] And deciding to make those kind of moves. So we started doing angel investments and crypto. Yeah. But both of those it was kind of like, let’s put the money in and forget it ever exists. Mm-hmm. And if it comes back to us, great, and if not, we have to be okay with that being more- Yeah … of a high risk, might go down the toilet.

[00:36:01] Nathan: So I’m curious about how you think … You know, you have your revenue coming in and- Mm-hmm … and the profit, and you get to choose to allocate that profit to lifestyle, uh, or to investments of some kind. And then obviously within investments it could go to a bunch of different places. I think it’s a hard thing where people don’t know how much.

[00:36:18] Like, maybe they heard growing up, like, you know, if you, if you invest 10% of your, your income you’re doing great. Right. You know? And that might make sense if you’re making $75,000 a year, and your living expenses like come all the way up, and you’re like, “Okay, I just need to get this up to 10%.” But when you’re making hundreds of thousands of dollars a year, then obviously there’s a different level to it.

[00:36:38] Mallory: Mm-hmm.

[00:36:38] Nathan: So how do you think about like what goes into lifestyle and what goes into-

[00:36:41] Mallory: Mm-hmm … investments? We always start with like the base expenses. Yeah. So what is the rent or the mortgage, um, bills, if you have dependents- Mm … things like that. What’s like that baseline month to month of living, always making sure the money’s going to that first, and then when you look at what’s left over, deciding really what you’re comfortable with timeline-wise.

[00:36:58] Okay. So if you wanna go fast, then you’re gonna put a much larger percentage of that towards- Mm … the investments. If you have maybe some other big things happening in your life, like, um, maybe it is the year you’re having kids, right? Maybe you want more budget for that. Adjusting and thinking about that timeline is how you pick the percentage.

[00:37:18] Mm. Because as much as I would love to give like rule of thumb, I feel like my whole, my whole being is like, “It depends for everyone.” Yeah. Like, that’s the point I wanna get across to people. A great example is when we hit, um, I think it was when we hit the million invested. My… And, and there was one point where my partner said, “Okay, if we invest 30K for the next eight years, we’ll have 2.5 million invested by 40 if the stock market continues-

[00:37:44] Nathan: Yeah

[00:37:44] Mallory: as, as averages.” Um, and I said, “Okay. Well, how much is that like total?” And so it was around like 240K, like give or take, ’cause we’re talking about like compounding every year. And so I went, “Okay. Well, I’m just gonna do that.” And so I just went, “Okay. Could I do that in two years?” Mm-hmm. And so I really zeroed in on that, and I actually did it last year in one year.

[00:38:06] Congrats. But, uh, thank you. But that’s an example where, um, it’s, it’s the timeline you’re working with. Right. And it doesn’t mean, again, I was like eating noodles, but it forced me to get creative. Well, if you wanna invest 240K in the next two years, you have to be making more revenue in the business- Mm-hmm

[00:38:19] and you have to keep the business profitable. So I think always looking at like what’s the route that feels good to you, because for him, he is more the person that’s like, “I think we could pull off between the two of us like 30K a year for eight years.” Right. Like, that feels pretty fair with what we’ve done before.

[00:38:33] Um, but for me, I’d rather get it out of the way ’cause if I know I have that locked in, it makes me feel more secure in my future, and it means that the decisions I make with where I take my business can now be based on where I truly wanna take it and not just necessarily being like, “Okay. Well, I have to do a few more things to get that extra investment money,” or whatever it might be.

[00:38:52] Nathan: What I, and what I’m realizing that you’re doing is you’re solving or p- you’re putting the entire math equation in front of you.

[00:38:58] Mallory: Mm-hmm.

[00:38:58] Nathan: And a lot of people will say like, “Well, here’s a few inputs, and we’ll see what comes out the other end.” And how long that takes, and, you know, that’s interesting to know.

[00:39:06] But what you’re doing is you’re like, “No, I have a specific dollar amount-

[00:39:09] Mallory: Mm-hmm …

[00:39:09] Nathan: and then a year that I would like that to happen in.” And so then you’re like, “Okay, what do I need to make in income? What do I need to save?” And then you get to the point where you’re like, “Okay, maybe that’s cutting it a little too close.

[00:39:20] And so instead of pulling this off in three years, we’ll pull it off in five.”

[00:39:23] Mallory: Right.

[00:39:23] Nathan: And that’s fine. But it’s like looking at every equation in there-

[00:39:27] Mallory: Yeah …

[00:39:28] Nathan: and how it ties into your goal.

[00:39:29] Mallory: And I think it’s how you can look after that current you and the future you. Mm-hmm. Um, I had an interesting conversation recently with someone where they asked if I sent, set goals for the year.

[00:39:38] And I had this hesitancy ’cause it was a space of a room of people who set big goals, right? Yes. And I’m like, “Ah, like not really.” But what I realized that works really well for me is these, like, big, scary goals. Mm-hmm. That is the, like, 2.5 million invested by 40. Mm-hmm. And then the competitive, like, self-competitive person in me goes like, “How can I get there faster?”

[00:39:58] Right. And so instead of going, you know, “Okay, I need to be here by the end of the year if I wanna stay on track to hit that goal,” it- I’m really someone that’s like, it doesn’t really matter where I am at the end of this year or next year if I’m going for that big goal. Yeah. Because I could be in one place in five years or in one year.

[00:40:13] But just looking at, like, how do I wanna get to that end goal, and then it forces you to get creative. So another example we were talking about with him was with followers. It’s like I know that I want 50K followers to just kind of like look more legit online- Yeah … for a lot of these rooms that you’re in.

[00:40:27] And so he, he’s like, “You know, is it a good k- goal to hit 10K by the end of this year?” And I’m like, “Okay, sure.” But, like, also the actions we’re gonna take to hit 10K might actually feel a little bit smaller, right? Like, the team knows they could probably get there, so we’re operating in a bit more of a comfortable zone.

[00:40:43] But if we just went, “Hey, team, we wanna go to 50,” like, “We wanna get to 50,” then you start to go, well, like, “Ooh, well, if we’re under 10K, like, how are we gonna do that?” And it forces that creative problem-solving, and I think that’s something that’s really been helpful to me, um, is using that creative problem-solving.

[00:40:59] Because then you’re- Right … it’s, it’s the 50 you care about. Who cares if you’re at 10K at the end of this year? ‘Cause you could hit 10K two years from now but then hit 50K a month later ’cause you changed how you’re approaching it, right?

[00:41:09] Nathan: You know what’s so interesting is almost every creator that I talk to sets goals.

[00:41:14] And y- you know, nearly all of them set goals around revenue.

[00:41:18] Mallory: Mm-hmm.

[00:41:19] Nathan: Some set goals around profit. Very, very few, probably 1% of the creators I talk to, set goals around net worth or investable, like, invested assets.

[00:41:28] Mallory: Mm-hmm.

[00:41:29] Nathan: And I think it’s such an important pivot to make, uh, for two reasons. One, the revenue you have to keep hitting every single year.

[00:41:36] Mallory: Yeah.

[00:41:36] Nathan: The invested assets, uh, they’re gonna start com- they’re gonna compound. And so long as you don’t touch that, it’s gonna keep working for you. And then the other thing is it’s going to… You’re, you’re optimizing for the goal that will truly serve you, and it’s the goal that lets you step off the hamster wheel at any time.

[00:41:53] Mallory: Mm-hmm.

[00:41:53] Nathan: Like, how, how do you think about that?

[00:41:55] Mallory: So when I burnt out building my business, it really made me f- face the identity piece. Mm-hmm. I loved being not only an entrepreneur, I loved being a young entrepreneur. Yeah. Like, something about that, I was like, “I’m so cool for this.” You know? You’re like, “This is such a cool thing.”

[00:42:09] ‘Cause it’s often the people- Oh, yeah … you looked up to,

[00:42:11] Nathan: right? I remember someone calling me precocious, and I was like, “I don’t know what that means.” And I looked it up- Yeah … and it was basically like, you know, the doing things at such a young age and, and- Yeah … all that, and that was exactly me. Like, I, at 22, at 24, all of the…

[00:42:22] And every- everyone would always say like, “Oh, yeah, you’re- Yeah … he’s done all of this, and he’s only,” whatever age.

[00:42:28] Mallory: Yeah. So-

[00:42:28] Nathan: They don’t say that to me quite so much anymore. I think when the gray hair kicked in, they’re

[00:42:32] Mallory: like- They’re like, “Come on.” Yeah. Get it together at your age.

[00:42:35] Nathan: I

[00:42:35] Mallory: know that- You know that Kevin Hart clip?

[00:42:36] I, I don’t. With Don Cheadle, and he says how old he is, and Kevin Hart’s like, “Damn.” I feel like it’s that energy.

[00:42:43] Nathan: Yeah, no, exactly.

[00:42:44] Mallory: Um, but yeah, I, I loved being a young entrepreneur, and I loved being a strong powerlifter. Mm-hmm. And so when I burnt out, it felt like both of those things- Oh,

[00:42:51] Nathan: your identity … were,

[00:42:51] Mallory: were going

[00:42:52] Nathan: away.

[00:42:52] Yeah.

[00:42:52] Mallory: Yeah,

[00:42:53] Nathan: because- Well, and a lot of entrepreneurs say, like, I think I- I’ve heard Tim Ferriss say this, of like you should have, you know, your business goals, and then separately you should have, like, your health and fitness goals. Mm-hmm. Because you’re gonna have a terrible day-

[00:43:04] Mallory: Yeah …

[00:43:04] Nathan: in your business, but you might have a great day in…

[00:43:06] Like, you play these two off of each other.

[00:43:07] Mallory: Yeah. And in your case- So

[00:43:08] Nathan: when they both fall apart … you’re like, “I was doing the thing.”

[00:43:11] Mallory: Yeah.

[00:43:11] Nathan: And-

[00:43:12] Mallory: And then my personal brand and what I was known for was a combination of those two things. Right. So you’re like, “Okay, that’s cool.” Like, that’s just a little pressure.

[00:43:19] Nathan: It’s like, who needed an identity anyway?

[00:43:20] Mallory: Yeah, yeah. Who needs it? And so in that period, I got really comfortable with, like, having no professional identity, just in conversations. Like, if people said, “What did you do for work?” I’d be like, “Marketing.”

[00:43:30] Nathan: Yeah. But

[00:43:30] Mallory: it was like I don’t need to be a certain person.

[00:43:33] I’m gonna lean into, like, what makes me, me- Mm-hmm … outside of both of those things, right? ‘Cause it’s so easy for us to, like, fall into the labels and love the labels. Right. Um, but I think the identity piece- is a really big part of it. So when I was able to look at separating that identity, I think that’s been one of the most powerful things in the chapters that followed for me.

[00:43:50] Because when everything is not tied to the identity piece, especially around your business, it lets you actually look at, to your point, what do I actually want, right? Yeah. A lot of us got into business… Yes, we wanna have impact in the business we’re building, but we also have those personal goals, right?

[00:44:05] We maybe want the house on the water. Maybe we want the yacht, whatever it might be. We want to be able to be completely logged off and traveling the world with our family. Everyone has those things that we want later. And so if you can really look at that as actually the goal, and what are those different paths to get there, it really just keeps opening it up.

[00:44:21] So revenue’s a great example where identity does get so tied into it. Right. And one of my favorite things is when creator, bigger creators do these revenue breakdowns at the end of the year, and we see often there’s a year where the revenue goes up, but the expenses, like, massively jump because- Yeah. Oh, yeah

[00:44:36] of what it took to get there. And often, coming out of that year, they go like, “I don’t want to do that again,” ’cause it wasn’t very fun. It was exhausting. Mm-hmm. And I’m actually landing in the same spot, or maybe not further. And sometimes that is just the risk that you have to take when you wanna build something massive.

[00:44:52] So I think there’s always an asterisk here of, like, if you are building a massive company, like, there is going to be those high expenses, and that is gonna be there’s years of that. But I think for a lot of people, they got into it of like, “Hey, I can have this lighthearted creator business where I get to reap the benefits from it and have this future life.”

[00:45:08] But how can we actually, like, get that feeling now, and how can we find different ways to get it? And for me, the net worth has been such an interesting way to look at it. Right. Because even we’re looking at right now, like, two years from now, we could probably pull, pull fully between stock markets, the longterm tenants, and what the short-term rental can do.

[00:45:28] We can cover a comfortable lifestyle.

[00:45:30] Nathan: Right.

[00:45:31] Mallory: So then it,

[00:45:31] Nathan: right- You’re financially independent at that point.

[00:45:32] Mallory: Yeah. It lets me look at, okay, well then what do I wanna build, and what’s, like, the message I wanna put out in the world? And it lets me now build this thing- Right … without it being so risk involved.

[00:45:42] Nathan: Yeah. Okay, so one of my biggest pet peeves in business-

[00:45:46] Mallory: Mm-hmm …

[00:45:47] Nathan: is the hustle bro who has built, hustled their way all the way up to massive success, and then goes around preaching like, “You know what? Actually, you don’t need to. You don’t need to work that hard. Balance is a better answer. Like, I wish I’d done things differently.”

[00:46:03] And it’s like, you can say all of that because- With your

[00:46:06] Mallory: $10 million …

[00:46:07] Nathan: with your $10 million, right? Yeah. Like, you built the business, the brand, the content, the following, whatever. And so now you can be like, “You know, I’m just all about re- relaxation and, uh, you know.” I don’t know. Mm-hmm. And I, I think it, I… it’s both a helpful and harmful message.

[00:46:24] ‘Cause there’s an element of truth to it. Mm-hmm. But it’s also, like, coming from someone where it’s like, that is not how you got any of your success.

[00:46:31] Mallory: Mm-hmm.

[00:46:32] Nathan: Yours is interesting because you have some of this message of, “Hey, maybe hustle is not- the only way to d- do it. You’re like, “I’ve done it to an extent.”

[00:46:43] Mallory: Mm-hmm.

[00:46:44] Nathan: But what I think is fascinating about your story is that you built really your whole empire. You, you learned a lot of skills through hustle.

[00:46:50] Mallory: Yeah, with the first business.

[00:46:51] Nathan: With the first business, and you paid the price.

[00:46:54] Mallory: Mm-hmm.

[00:46:54] Nathan: Um, and but those skills have compounded over a long period of time. Um, but the, the net worth was all built post-

[00:47:03] Mallory: Yeah

[00:47:03] Nathan: you know, it was all built under these new rules, you know? Yes. And so, yeah, what were those rules? Like, how do you think about- The way that you build versus, you know, like in 2.0 versus 1.0.

[00:47:16] Mallory: Yeah. I think a big thing is like you don’t necessarily have to lower the ambition, ’cause I totally agree when we hear people say that.

[00:47:22] Mm-hmm. We’re like, “Okay, yeah, but that’s how you got to where you were,” right? Right. Um, and I think they’re always a proof point that like the health and happiness does matter because they come out the other side and they go like, “Whoa, nobody else do that.” Yeah. They’re just maybe telling you like, “Don’t do it, but I’m sitting here- Right

[00:47:36] in my pool of money.”

[00:47:38] Nathan: I wish I’d learned that when I was still in my first marriage,

[00:47:40] Mallory: right? Right. Right. Something like that, yeah. That’s the big thing we see at the front of the rooms, right? It’s like the three times divorced and they’re telling you, “Here’s how to build a business” and it’s like, well, what if I don’t wanna end up- Yeah

[00:47:47] in that place, right? Um, so I think for me, it’s like realizing that there’s seasons to everything, and I think we get like afraid of that, and it comes into that identity piece too. We either are ambitious or we’re not. Mm-hmm. We’re lazy or we’re not, right? And we self-identify that way, and maybe we also like judge it in others, and it’s always that mirror of like, oh, that person’s l- like lazy, this person’s successful.

[00:48:07] Um, and we really look at this like identity piece of it. But if we can see everything in seasons and look at, you know, whether you wanna call it work-life balance, work-life harmony, whatever you wanna call it. I just call it life. Yeah. Um, but looking at that can have seasons too. So for me, it doesn’t mean that I’m like just always like chilling and like not working very hard.

[00:48:27] There’s just seasons of that. Mm-hmm. So an example being in 2021, um, I decided to really dial up the coaching business, and so that actually you could say I was hustling. Yeah. But the difference is I put in the boundaries, so I got comfortable with what do I need from the health side, how do I use habits to have these boundaries.

[00:48:45] And habits can look like going to the gym and drinking your water. Mm-hmm. And I think those are really key habits, but habits can also be learning how to delegate, right? Learning how to ask for help, and like being someone who asks for help. That is like a habit that we have to practice, right? So I think if you can put those boundaries on the work, you can still have these seasons of hustle.

[00:49:03] The key is it’s a season, right? So 2021 I took on an absurd amount of coaching clients ’cause I was like, “I’m sitting home alone. This is sad.” Yeah. “I don’t even get to see my family,” right? Um, so I took on way more clients. And then the next year I went, “That was a lot,” but I knew it was gonna be a lot, but now I’m gonna have no clients for the entire year, and I’m gonna go renovate this cottage in the woods with my hands.

[00:49:23] Right. I’m gonna learn to drywall and paint because that’s what I wanna do, have that trade-off. Mm-hmm. And I think a lot of the conversation we think of this like everyday balance of now I also have to meditate and go to the gym and like do all these things to take care of myself. Yeah. But you can also sprint and then just make sure that there’s something that comes after that.

[00:49:39] Mm-hmm. So I love like … I haven’t worked A December in a very long time because often for November and December, I take it off because I do still like to sprint in some ways through the year. But then in December, we were in the Philippines and Singapore and just doing- Yeah … like absolutely nothing. So I think finding that balance in, like, these longer seasons and acknowledging that you might have a season where you do feel more ambitious, you feel more driven, and then you might have a season where you wanna take it easy.

[00:50:06] Mm. And that’s where the full picture, like, net worth side of things is really helpful because you can go, “Okay, well, actually, if I had to pull from my stocks right now, I could.” But if you’re only ever in the hustle mode, you get in this stuck position where you have to keep going.

[00:50:20] Nathan: Well, and as you were saying of, like, being okay if revenue declines- Yes

[00:50:23] in a given year because your net worth didn’t decline. Mm-hmm. You’re just saying, “Oh, I contributed less. I, I bought fewer investable assets this year than I did last year.”

[00:50:31] Mallory: Mm-hmm. ”

[00:50:31] Nathan: But I still have, you know, I still have more than I did,” and those are working for you, and those are compounding. Um, we’ve got family friends who They both had successful pr- professional careers.

[00:50:44] So, I don’t know, maybe five years after they got married, they decided they wanted to take investing and, you know, their, their net worth seriously. And so they pulled their expenses down to the smallest possible amount they could, and then they took both their… One worked in IT, and the other, uh, worked in accounting.

[00:51:04] And they took both of their salaries and said, “We’re taking absolutely everything we can, and we are putting the- all of our active income into buying investment properties.” And then their rule was they, once they got to the point that their passive, their investment income matched, like, met their expenses, then they’re like, “Okay, we can only live off of our passive income.”

[00:51:25] Mallory: Mm. ”

[00:51:26] Nathan: And our active income is, it only goes to buying more investable assets.” And so every time they’d be like, “I think I want to, we want to, like, buy a new car and fund our lifestyle in some way”, it’s like, okay, well, figure out how to get that much more in passive income- Mm-hmm … so that we can do it. And they, I mean, they compounded.

[00:51:44] With normal jobs, they compounded their wealth in an astronomical way.

[00:51:47] Mallory: Yeah.

[00:51:48] Nathan: Uh, because they just said, no, the… Like, they inverted the normal- Totally … methodology.

[00:51:53] Mallory: Yeah, and that’s where I- I look at it as, like, the habits make you actually able to, like, do the building- Right … and enjoy it after the fact. Mm-hmm.

[00:51:59] Because we’ve all been there, where we’ve seen people build these massive things and not be okay, right? But the finance, it’s the two vehicles you’re talking about, right? Right. One of those vehicles is going towards the bills, and then deciding, okay, what’s gonna be the vehicle that’s going to build this other thing?

[00:52:11] And sometimes we can just do it in a smarter way, and it doesn’t mean they had to work harder or differently, right?

[00:52:16] Nathan: So there’s this idea that, you know, maybe, uh, ambition and results is on one side, and balance is on the other. Mm-hmm. Right? We have these, uh, l- these binary scales. Yeah. And you’re like, you gotta choose where in there is right for you.

[00:52:29] Uh, or, you know, in this case where you’re saying, like, okay, if you want more balance in life, then you need to set smaller goals or, or extend the timeline. You’ve put these constraints in and said, actually, to some extent I can have it all. That’s what I feel like. I don’t think in- Mm-hmm … avoiding burnout and- putting constraints in, I don’t think you slowed down your wealth acceleration journey.

[00:52:54] Mm-hmm. Which everyone w- like common sense would say that you have to.

[00:52:57] Mallory: Right.

[00:52:58] Nathan: Like, what are the constraints that you put in and, and how did you not make it a trade-off?

[00:53:03] Mallory: I think it really is about that creative problem-solving. So one thing I love to do whenever you have a goal is this thing called the toddler test.

[00:53:10] Nathan: Okay.

[00:53:10] Mallory: And like, you know how a toddler asks you why, why, why? Oh, yeah. It’s like, “Why is the sky blue?” I’m sure you’re very familiar. I’m very familiar,

[00:53:14] Nathan: yes.

[00:53:15] Mallory: Um, we wanna do that to ourselves. Mm-hmm. So when you have a goal or when I have a goal, I think about, well, why do I want that? What do I really mean by that?

[00:53:22] And if we can keep going a layer and a layer down until we feel like we’re at the root reason we want something, then that’s where we can actually have a conversation. So that, that could be a goal too that you’re maybe like not acting on and you’re not sure why you’re … You think you want this thing, but you’re like, “Ugh, I’m really not taking the steps in the direction.

[00:53:38] Like, am I scared or what is it?” We can get to the root of it. And same with something that you’re really chasing. Maybe you get there too, and it’s not that satisfying. It’s like, well, did you actually want that thing or was it someone else’s? Right. Um, so when you get all the way to the root, one of three things will happen.

[00:53:52] In one scenario you realize, like, “I actually don’t care about this goal at all,” right? Maybe this was someone else’s goal. Maybe you’re similar to me, where you see someone else’s like million-dollar goal and I go, “Okay, I want that.” And sometimes that works, and sometimes we realize, oh, I was just doing that because, you know, I saw Nathan doing it, and he’s a successful person so I thought that’s the thing I should want, right?

[00:54:12] So sometimes we realize like, oh, I don’t actually care about the surface level goal here. And then in that scenario you get to make a new goal which is exciting. Mm-hmm. In the second scenario it’s more of that six solutions path where you realize, okay, now that I understand what’s underneath this goal, I can actually realize there’s different ways to get here.

[00:54:28] So if I want that financial freedom, it could still be building the business the way that I’m building, but maybe it’s buying these assets or flipping these properties or doing these other things or focusing on my stock investments. Um, or maybe it’s a different business idea, right? Maybe we’re just already in the motions of one business so we think like that’s the way we have to go, but if we’re really looking at the root of what we want it opens up those doors.

[00:54:49] And then in the third scenario you’re like, “Actually, hell yeah. Like I, I am really excited about this goal, but I have that deeper understanding.” Maybe we’ve reconnected with the why behind it, and often that person can go like further faster because they feel so passionate about it. But then those first two scenarios you can start to explore what is the goal that you actually want.

[00:55:06] Mm-hmm. And I think it’s such an important process to come back to over and over because sometimes too we did want the goal. Right. But then when we actually get like real about what’s underneath it, maybe it’s an identity piece, maybe it’s a security piece, and then that’s where you can start letting go.

[00:55:20] And I think that’s the thing I’ve been able to do. You know, we were talking probably about, you know, being in rooms where there’s really big revenue numbers and people are talking about the ways they’re growing every year, and I don’t make my revenue grow linear. Like, it’s not, um, a non-negotiable for me.

[00:55:35] My non-negotiable is that I’m having fun in my business- Right … ’cause I know how it feels how to not. So that for me is actually the priority. And for me, it’s okay if a year is less revenue, ’cause I probably intentionally took the time to go renovate the cottage- Mm-hmm … or do something like that. But so much of that comes back to that identity piece of like, can you let go and look at what’s the thing that you actually want underneath?

[00:55:55] Nathan: Yeah, and I think those constraints, when you, you clearly identify what you want-

[00:56:00] Mallory: Mm-hmm …

[00:56:00] Nathan: and then you put constraints around how you’re going to get there, I think it actually really helps. Yeah. Because there’s so many aspects, I mean, I think about this in the goals that I have for Kit and how I’m growing the business There’s a, there’s a ton of ways to accomplish any goal.

[00:56:13] And if you say like, “Oh, I have to, um, be home this much for my family. I have to do all the…” You know?

[00:56:18] Mallory: Yeah.

[00:56:19] Nathan: Then I have to choose, okay, these are the events that I’m gonna go travel to. Mm-hmm. You know? I, I start to say no to the average opportunities that would drive the business forward, and I only say yes to the best opportunities, which tends to make other great opportunities come along.

[00:56:32] Mallory: Right.

[00:56:33] Nathan: And so I like recalibrate in this way, and there’s things where it’s like, oh, if we’re just maximizing output- Yeah … then I would do all these things myself. But because I have constraints around it-

[00:56:42] Mallory: Yeah …

[00:56:43] Nathan: I can’t do it myself. And so I guess, guess I’m gonna have to spend some money and hire a person to do that.

[00:56:47] And then it’s like, oh, wait, then they did it better than I did. Okay. So the constraint actually-

[00:56:51] Mallory: Totally …

[00:56:52] Nathan: you know, gave me much bigger results.

[00:56:54] Mallory: I kind of look at three categories in my mind, one being the non-negotiables. Mm-hmm. Um, so this can be things like the family time. And I think it’s important to clarify what that is.

[00:57:02] Yeah. ‘Cause if we say I wanna spend time with my family, that can look very different from parent A to parent B, right? Mm-hmm. So figuring out like what pieces of that is important. Is it a certain amount of hours per week? Is it doing the bath time at night, right? Right. Like figuring out specifically what those non-negotiables are.

[00:57:17] Um, and for me too, I love to do like a, a quick exercise of like thinking of your day in the life in like 2050 or whatever it might be. And when you wake up, like how do you feel in the morning, right? Like, who’s around you? And really focusing on that feeling I think is so important. Mm-hmm. And similarly to how I was talking about we can go in a circle for goals, usually we can have that feeling in our current, right?

[00:57:38] Yeah. I wanna feel light or I wanna feel like I’m having fun, or I wanna feel at peace. Okay, well, the non-negotiables is how we can make sure that we keep that feeling now. Mm-hmm. Because we don’t know that we’re gonna get there later, right? Things happen- Right … unfortunately to people, so we might as well get that feeling now.

[00:57:54] And I think it’s, again, a good challenge to be like, I think I have to do all of this stuff to get to that feeling, but is there micro ways I could pull in that feeling of peace, right? Maybe peace for you is a Saturday morning with a book. Mm-hmm. And so we’re bringing that into our everyday life with those non-negotiables.

[00:58:09] And then we have our nice to haves. So the nice to haves give you wiggle room, and the nice to haves exist so that the non-negotiables like truly stay not negotiable because I think we’ve all done that, especially in the new year. We’re like, “Here’s all the habits I’m gonna do, and they’re not negotiable,” and then we start negotiating them.

[00:58:22] Yeah. Right? So the nice to haves- is that wiggle room. And for some people, maybe that feeling you want later actually falls in a nice to have. Maybe there’s seasons of that feeling right now. Maybe it’s not all the time. Like, maybe you’re not gonna feel at peace when you’re hosting Craft and Commerce, right?

[00:58:36] Right. Like, that might be a season where it’s not necessarily a prevalent feeling. Um, but the nice to haves are things where you’re like, “In an, the ideal world, this is what’s happening, but I’m okay with sometimes it not being there.” Really working with those seasons. And then the third category is really where we can find those other ways to growth, and it’s treating things like an experiment.

[00:58:54] Mm. So like, that’s also been a big theme for me is just asking, you know, what would happen if, and going from there. And I think we do so much out of shame. You know, “I should go to the gym more. I should grow my business this way.” Right. “I should hire for this.” And we don’t do enough out of curiosity. And curiosity into stuff is just way more fun.

[00:59:10] And it’s also a lot less stressful, because it feels like we’re just, you know, a scientist testing a theory, and it feels less like that identity piece. So if you’re like, “Well, what would happen if I tried to get a million followers on Instagram? What would happen if I wanted to build this thing?” And letting yourself experiment in that phase, that’s really where we can, like, send it to the moon, but not burn out, because we have those non-negotiables and nice to haves.

[00:59:33] Nathan: You have this, like, lightness and joy and playfulness to the way that you approach the business that I think is so different from so many people I talk to, who are like, “I have to make sure that revenue this year is at least 5% higher than revenue last year.” And the thing that I think makes this difference is that you have this nest egg.

[00:59:51] Like, you know, you have the w- now over a million dollars in invested assets that, like, your worst-case scenario is pretty well protected. How do you think about the do- downside, and how has that enabled you to live differently?

[01:00:04] Mallory: Yeah. You know, it’s so funny. One time I posted a story, and I was like, “I think I’ve cured my scarcity.”

[01:00:09] And people were like, “Oh, my God, what was it?” And I was like, “Oh, I just, like, got a lot of money.”

[01:00:14] Nathan: But you, you, you got a lot of money, and then you kept your lifestyle low.

[01:00:18] Mallory: Yes.

[01:00:18] Nathan: Like, you’re not … That’s another big thing. People will often say they look at all this money- Mm-hmm … and they’re like, “Oh, I want to be rich so that I can

[01:00:26] And they list off all of these things, whether it’s planes or handbags or yachts or whatever. Yeah. Even starting to sound like that Taylor Swift song about, you know- … your Balenciaga shades, you know? But, um, and it’s like, no, those are, those are all signs of spending money. The actually having the money is a very quiet thing to do, right?

[01:00:44] And so what- Yeah … you’re talking about is the signs of, “No, I have the money as the nest egg, as the- growing assets, and that’s a very different thing.

[01:00:51] Mallory: Yeah, and I think, too, like, I, I believe our generation is more attracted to, like, work optional versus, like, this idea of, like, “I’m retiring- Right … and you’re never gonna see me again,” because a lot of us do wanna have that impact.

[01:01:02] Mm-hmm. And we wanna have that personal fulfillment. We’ve seen it a lot in the, the financial, like, FIRE, financial- Uh-huh … independence retire early community, where people, like, get lost and bored, right? It’s the same after people sell a business. Right. They don’t know who they are anymore. And so I think having that nest egg is something that I craved so much in picking a non-traditional career.

[01:01:20] And so to build it for myself truly has been … Anytime, you know, I’m getting nervous about what I’m building or I’m not sure about which direction to take, it’s like coming back to that, “Well, you are going to be good because you’ve made these other decisions for future you.” And that gives me a lot of power to decide where I wanna take things.

[01:01:36] Mm-hmm. Um, it lets me say no to things. It let me keep those boundaries, and it just, to your point, lets me keep this playfulness in the business.

[01:01:43] Nathan: Yeah, and then you could say, like, “You know what? I wanna renovate a cot- cottage, and I’m gonna take a step back and go do that.”

[01:01:48] Mallory: And then- Yes. And even writing a book, that’s something o- that’s on the radar for me that I’ve always wanted to do.

[01:01:52] Mm-hmm. And I’ve had so many friends that have had very interesting experiences writing a book where, you know, it kinda takes over your whole life. And if you’re not ready for it- Right … they can sometimes be grieving, like, where their business was at, and this thing kind of, you know, self-imploded because they’re trying to meet the book deadlines.

[01:02:07] And that’s something where I feel like as I move into that, I’m like, “I can have space to, like, take two years to write the book.” And if I know what I need and I know that that season can be, “Hey, we’re gonna live off, like, tighter expenses but pull it from stocks,” then it can be that.

[01:02:22] Nathan: I feel like you do such a good job of being a public role model for a different way of building businesses.

[01:02:27] That’s what’s been so impactful for me, is, like, not growing up around money or people who talked about this. It’s just seeing, like, oh, wait, random people on the internet will share – Yes … you know, all of these details. So thank you for sharing your whole journey and being willing to talk through the exact numbers.

[01:02:41] If people wanna follow more of what you’re doing and they’re like, “Ooh, I like this.”

[01:02:44] Mallory: Yeah, yeah. ”

[01:02:45] Nathan: Not only this creator, but I like this life philosophy. I’ll subscribe to that,” where should they go to check out more of what, what you’re doing-

[01:02:50] Mallory: Yeah …

[01:02:50] Nathan: and what you’re building next?

[01:02:51] Mallory: Instagram’s always my main platform, @malloryrowan, but I’m really excited.

[01:02:54] We’re building a membership community space called The Fund Club. Okay. And this is where we’re gonna continue these conversations. So it’s gonna be a place for both entrepreneurs and non-entrepreneurs to come together to have these creative money conversations. Mm. To say, “Hey, what are you guys doing differently?

[01:03:08] What should I do with this money that’s just sitting?” And we’ll be bringing in experts who have done really cool different things- Yeah … to say, like, “Hey, we have friends, you know, they travel full time through content creation, so how are they doing that?” And it’s going to be one of those spaces where I just want people to hear a certain strategy, and it has that moment where it clicks, and you’re like, “I can do that.”

[01:03:25] I want that. Yeah.

[01:03:26] Nathan: I’ll have what she’s having.

[01:03:27] Mallory: I’ll have what she’s having. So I’m basically making a formalized version of I’ll have what she’s having. So we have a wait list right now if people wanna sign up. Everything’s available through my Instagram.

[01:03:37] Nathan: That sounds good. All right, we’ll go follow you on Instagram.

[01:03:39] And Mallory, thanks so much for coming on.

[01:03:40] Mallory: Thanks for having me.

[01:03:41] Nathan: If you enjoyed this episode, go to YouTube and search The Nathan Barry Show. Then hit subscribe and make sure to like the video and drop a comment. I’d love to hear what some of your favorite parts of the video were, and also just who else you think we should have on the show.

[01:03:56] Thank you so much for

[01:03:56] listening.

[00:00:00] Gannon: We are infatuated with the views and the likes on a post and the follower count. I know people who have hundreds of thousands of followers who make no money.

[00:00:07] Nathan: How do you make money from Instagram? You already have the attention. People watch your reels and reply to your stories, but almost none of that turns into actual revenue.

[00:00:16] Gannon: 70 to 80% of the time you should have a CTA. I have figured it out on my own because I’ve made 4,000 videos.

[00:00:22] Nathan: He’s done videos for clients that have done hundreds of thousands of views, $50,000 boot camp launches, and every weekly newsletter he sends generates sales on autopilot. If you have an audience on Instagram but you’re not making money, you’re probably making this mistake.

[00:00:36] Gannon: You’re probably not using the PSA story framework. Every time I do it, it has 4X outlier.

[00:00:42] Nathan: He breaks down his selling system into a simple three-step framework, and he walks through his funnel piece by piece.

[00:00:47] Gannon: If you go on your Instagram analytics, your insights for a post, their most recent update lists the engagement in order of how important it is for being recommended to a new audience.

[00:00:55] Comments are still ranked pretty high.

[00:00:57] Nathan: By the end, you’ll have a funnel you can set up this

[00:00:59] Gannon: week, no matter the size of

[00:01:01] Nathan: your audience. Your revenue per view ratio on that is probably very good. It’s more than a dollar a view. This is incredible.

[00:01:12] So Ganun, we’ve got a big topic today, how to make money from Instagram. Yes, sir. There’s a lot of people that build big followings and don’t make any money.

[00:01:19] Gannon: Yeah.

[00:01:20] Nathan: What do you say to that?

[00:01:21] Gannon: Uh, you know, they usually chase brand deals as the next best step, and then that turns into an unreliable marketing stream or income stream, so I help them sell their products.

[00:01:30] And people who do sell products, they’re just like, “I know I sell them. I just don’t know how I sell them.” And I’m like- Okay … “Well, we have to figure that out so that’s why they hire me.”

[00:01:38] Nathan: So you turn the attention from Instagram- Correct … into actual revenue and sales.

[00:01:42] Gannon: Yeah, and also being able to, like, visualize what it looks like and how to do more of what’s working, because people just don’t know.

[00:01:48] Nathan: I think a lot of people, even who make that leap to products, are then like, “I don’t know. I just kind of mentioned it in a story or something else, and-

[00:01:53] Gannon: Yeah …

[00:01:54] Nathan: it made some money,” and so it doesn’t feel sustainable or reliable. Yeah. Uh, like, how do you approach

[00:02:00] Gannon: that? I mean, most people, I mean, I hate to say it, like, just, they just get lucky.

[00:02:04] Yeah. And they just continue, like, riding that luck wave, and then when things run out, they just like, “Well, this doesn’t work anymore. Let me go for more brand deals.” Mm. Um, you know, the way that we approach it is just, like, how do we make everything personal, eyes a- at, at scale, right? So, like, if I know somebody has a specific problem, I need to get that out of them, have them tell me, and then recommend a solution.

[00:02:25] Because the way that I kind of explain it is like, if this is, uh, a menu at, like, a diner.

[00:02:31] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:02:32] Gannon: You have 40,000 different… Like, a New Jersey diner, for example, right? Or a New York diner, you have, like, 40,000 different combinations of things. And if, let’s just… I use the example of, like, being on a road trip.

[00:02:42] Like, you’re on an eight-hour road trip from, like, Florida to, like, Upstate New York. You stop in New York City or, like, somewhere in New Jersey, and it’s like, “I’m starving, and I don’t know what I want. And the fact that this has 40,000 things on it is not making my taste any better.” And, um, I, I give the analogy of, like, a waiter or a waitress coming over and asking, like, “What can I get you?”

[00:03:03] You not knowing what you want, and then the waiter asking, “Well, what do you like? What are you in the mood for?”

[00:03:07] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:03:07] Gannon: So instead of the waiter recommending right off the bat, like, the specials on the menu, it’s taking into consideration what this person likes, because- Right … if they’re like, “You should get the salmon,” and you don’t like seafood, it’s just gonna make you even more mad.

[00:03:19] So that’s kind of the logic we’re taking to this. Like, even if you have one or two products, you still have a menu, and you need to get that menu item in front of the right person to help them make that decision. Okay. Because they don’t know what to buy. They just need help. Yeah, and I- And that’s where

[00:03:33] Nathan: you come in

[00:03:33] I’m excited to dive into that. Before we do that, what’s, what are some examples of, uh, clients that you’ve had? May- maybe let’s do two things. Let’s talk about clients that you’ve had- Yeah … like, right, and who you- you’ve served, and then maybe separately from that, you can give some examples of- … the types of income that you’ve seen creators achieve.

[00:03:52] Yeah. You know, like following to, to income level.

[00:03:54] Gannon: It’s, it’s crazy, um, and just, like, being able to see this behind the scenes and just seeing how, like- Just how these businesses operate is just so, like, eye-opening for me.

[00:04:04] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:04:04] Gannon: Um, but yeah, how they typically work, um, you know, a lot of the, the clients that we work with are, like, info, educational-based, so like course cohort, uh, membership, community.

[00:04:16] They’re typically doing, like, quarter million to, like, half million in sales a year.

[00:04:20] Nathan: Okay.

[00:04:20] Gannon: A lot of that’s brand deals. Um, or they want to launch a product, and they see, like, “Oh, this person made $1.2 million or $1.5 million,” and, like, “I wanna do the same thing,” and it’s just like, “We can, we can try to get you there.

[00:04:33] Um, but you have to understand that, like, you know, this, when you’re launching something or releasing something to, like, your audience, the, the fundamental, like, thing that you’re trying to achieve is, like, how do I get this person not to, like, pay me money, but to trust me enough that I’m the right person- Mm-hmm

[00:04:48] to help them solve this problem?” And people are just not good at that, because they take this, like, shotgun approach, where it’s like, “I have 800,000 people in my audience. Let me just pitch the same thing to everybody and see who buys.” Right. Right? Agreed. Shout out to Brennan Dunn, by the way.

[00:05:01] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:05:03] Gannon: Thank you, Brennan.

[00:05:03] He’s great at

[00:05:03] Nathan: personalization- Yeah … and all of that. Yeah,

[00:05:04] Gannon: yeah.

[00:05:05] Nathan: Uh, fun fact about Brennan is when I was v- early on starting Kit, he was my developer friend who was in the GitHub repository checking to see-

[00:05:14] Gannon: Really? …

[00:05:14] Nathan: if the, the freelance developers that I hired were doing good commits. Wow.

[00:05:18] Gannon: Yeah. Well, that’s before everybody was on GitHub, and now you have Cloud Code and just pushing absolute nonsense, which is, I’m, I’m guilty of that stuff.

[00:05:25] Which is what you’re doing.

[00:05:26] Nathan: So going… What I’m trying to g- to get a sense of is if I have 10,000 followers and a targeted offer-

[00:05:32] Gannon: Yep …

[00:05:32] Nathan: and that’s really, like, is this something where it’s like, “Hey, you could be making $5,000 a month-”

[00:05:36] Gannon: Yeah … ”

[00:05:37] Nathan: or 50,000″? Like, w- what’s the scale that

[00:05:39] Gannon: we’re talking about here? Yeah, it’s, I mean, like, what we do w- with selling, so we use ManyChat, which we’ll get into, is, like, you, you have a really good opportunity, number one, to get somebody to buy into a lower ticket product- Mm

[00:05:49] right off the bat. Like, if you’re thinking about selling a $2,500 course or a $10,000 service in the DMs, it’s just not gonna happen. Yeah. Right? Like, no one’s gonna take out their credit card. It’s like that, um- Was it Kayak maybe? They did a commercial where it’s like, “I’m too scared to make this decision.”

[00:06:04] It’s like three, like, millennial Gen Z people are, like, trying to make a big- Yeah … decision to purchase on a phone, and they just won’t do it. Right. So, like, anything really over, like, maybe a few hundred dollars, in our case, like, we work really well with, like, $47 offers.

[00:06:16] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:06:16] Gannon: Um, it works really well in the DMs, but anything above that, like, you just have to get them over to email.

[00:06:21] Uh-huh. And the email is what sells them.

[00:06:23] Nathan: Okay, so what we’re focused on initially is getting that attention on Instagram and then translating it into-

[00:06:28] Gannon: Yeah, and all the clients we work with, um, they’re really good at getting attention.

[00:06:32] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:06:33] Gannon: But, like, we don’t solve the attention problem, but I have kind of figured it out on my own because- Mm

[00:06:37] I’ve made 4,000 videos, you know, so it’s gonna… Like, something has to work after you make 4,000 videos. I

[00:06:41] Nathan: wanna dive into that a bit later, but let’s- Yeah. For now, let’s focus on this conversion process. Cool. Yeah, yeah. So what… We’ve got the board up here.

[00:06:47] Gannon: Yeah,

[00:06:48] Nathan: yeah. What should we be drawing to dive into-

[00:06:49] Gannon: So draw, draw three boxes, right?

[00:06:50] Okay. So draw a box up here, one down here, and just- Okay. We’re going big or small? Like rectangles. Yeah, yeah. Go, go, go wide, and we can just, like- Okay … brainstorm these as time goes on. I couldn’t have done it better myself. Look at this.

[00:07:01] Nathan: Yeah. Professional right here. That’s right. Yeah. I’m just trying to, just trying to get on your level.

[00:07:05] Gannon: Yeah, so, um, this represents, uh, it, it, it’s like a funnel essentially. So you have three steps of, like, what we do and what I recommend people do, is your top of the funnel is just, like, all of your free stuff. Okay. So, so just write free. Right? So this is your lead magnet. This is your newsletter. Yep. Um, anything that you give away for free of value.

[00:07:23] Okay. Second is segment.

[00:07:26] Nathan: Okay.

[00:07:26] Gannon: So just write segment in that one. It turns into an acronym that people think, “Oh, does that mean what I think it means?” And it’s like, no, it means free segment, and that upsell is the last one. Okay. So FSU, it’s not, it’s definitely not, you know-

[00:07:39] Nathan: Not what you think.

[00:07:39] Gannon: It’s not what you think.

[00:07:40] It’s definitely not what you think. Okay. It’s not a attention play either. Um, yeah, so, like, it goes from free segment to upsell. So everything you give away for free turns into an opportunity to ask questions to your audience, right?

[00:07:49] Nathan: Okay.

[00:07:49] Gannon: So free is when somebody’s on a road trip, they come into your restaurant.

[00:07:54] And they’re like, “I know you have food. I know you can help me not starve on this road trip.” And then the segment question is when the waiter or waitress comes over and asks, “What do you like? What do you enjoy?” Mm-hmm. Right? So there’s good ways to ask questions, and then there’s bad ways to-

[00:08:07] Nathan: Okay …

[00:08:08] Gannon: ask questions.

[00:08:08] We can talk more about that, too.

[00:08:10] Nathan: Do you wanna dive into that now? Or get… We’ll come back to it.

[00:08:12] Gannon: Yeah, we’ll come back to it. Okay. So, like, upsell is just giving somebody an offer. And I, I say upsell, but, like, upsell’s usually just, like, a recommendation. Mm-hmm. So you can do FSR if you’re not salesy. People who don’t like being salesy.

[00:08:22] Okay. Um, so upsell’s technically not like, “Hey, you bought this for 100, buy this for 200.” Mm-hmm. It’s just, “You got this for free. Check this out as the next step.” Yeah. Right? So segment, um, when we’re thinking about segmenting questions, we, we love open-ended questions.

[00:08:39] Nathan: Okay.

[00:08:40] Gannon: So we wanna get the most accurate data from our audience for a few different reasons, and we’ll talk more about ManyChat and, like, how this plays in, but ManyChat gives you the opportunity…

[00:08:50] And for those who, like, are watching this and you’re like, “I don’t know what ManyChat is,” it’s just if you’ve ever seen somebody tell you to comment on a post-

[00:08:55] Nathan: Comment this word …

[00:08:56] Gannon: and you get this resource, they’re like, “How you do that?” Yeah. It’s just ManyChat, basically. Right. Um, most cases, ManyChat. So-

[00:09:01] Nathan: You can do it through Facebook Business Manager as well in a basic sense, right?

[00:09:05] Gannon: Yeah, you can do it for, you can do it for ads. You can do it for, um… It works on Facebook. It works on Instagram.

[00:09:10] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:09:11] Gannon: TikTok, kind of.

[00:09:12] Nathan: Okay.

[00:09:12] Gannon: And then, yeah. It’s-

[00:09:13] Nathan: And I, I think people do it manually on LinkedIn.

[00:09:16] Gannon: People do it manually on LinkedIn. Yeah. Um,

[00:09:19] Nathan: we’ll see if- Which

[00:09:19] Gannon: tells you that it’s

[00:09:20] Nathan: valuable enough of a thing to do that-

[00:09:23] Gannon: Yeah, I-

[00:09:23] Nathan: people believe it’s

[00:09:24] Gannon: worth doing … I just think that, that these companies don’t wanna g- expose their API data, for whatever reason. Yeah. But I think, you know, for people who wanna run businesses, it’s just a no-brainer. Right. It’s absolutely insane. Um-

[00:09:34] Nathan: Okay, so we’ve got open-ended questions.

[00:09:35] Gannon: Yeah, so the reason why open-ended questions are great is because, you know, if you ask somebody a multiple choice question, which is, like, what we do typically in a type form-

[00:09:43] Nathan: Yeah

[00:09:43] Gannon: you’re only gonna get four different responses. Mm-hmm. So- Are you

[00:09:46] Nathan: a designer, a developer- Yeah … or whatever. Yeah.

[00:09:48] Gannon: But it’s like those are, like, radio dial questions that you can ask. But you can also ask questions like, “What do you need help with the most?” Oh, okay. And if you keep that open-ended, what you can do in ManyChat is you can actually look at all of the responses that people gave you, export it as a CSV file, send it over to, like, your copywriter and be like, “This is all the responses that we have from our team- Oh, yeah

[00:10:08] or from people who went through it, and we need to update the copy in- Mm-hmm … our sales page, our, our content.” Um, but also, if you give somebody the opportunity to tell you their life story, they will tell you their life story, so. But the more data we get, the better we can go into the upsell.

[00:10:23] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:10:23] Gannon: So essentially, like, what’s happening here is, like, you know, I can, I can draw this too.

[00:10:27] Yeah, go for it. But with ManyChat, you have… Oh, this is a nice marker. I love this.

[00:10:34] Nathan: We love a good marker efficiently, how

[00:10:35] Gannon: to- This is, this is very small, but you have an I/input bucket, then you have an O/output bucket. Okay. So typically what happens when you, um, create these automations in ManyChat is you have these, um, input and output fields.

[00:10:49] So if I ask you what your biggest struggle is, if you say anything- Mm-hmm … to do with revenue, you’re gonna get put into the revenue bucket,

[00:10:56] Nathan: right? Okay.

[00:10:57] Gannon: So when you ask these questions, like, as soon as you ask the question, this input jar opens up.

[00:11:02] Nathan: Okay.

[00:11:02] Gannon: And it stays open until whatever duration you set for.

[00:11:05] Usually it’s 30 minutes. You can do 12 hours. But whatever you say gets put into that jar, and then it gets sent over to Claude, and then Claude categorizes them in that output.

[00:11:14] Nathan: Hmm.

[00:11:15] Gannon: And then you can send a conditional message based off that.

[00:11:17] Nathan: Okay.

[00:11:19] Gannon: It’s a little abstract- Yeah … for the dive more so.

[00:11:21] Nathan: So in this, um, ’cause I think most people are used to segmentation where they’re just like, “Are you A, B, and C?”

[00:11:27] Yeah. Or-

[00:11:27] Gannon: Yeah …

[00:11:27] Nathan: or that sort. This is a lot more advanced. You’re saying actually for 30 minutes. Is that what you recommend is the, a 30-minute window?

[00:11:33] Gannon: So, I mean, the f- it defaults to 30 minutes. Mm-hmm. But the issue with that is, like, if you … So I, I think of it like a train station, right? So, like the 30-minute window in ManyChat- Mm-hmm

[00:11:43] says, if this person does not respond within 30 minutes, the train leaves the station. It’s not listening for their response anymore. Ah. The jar closes. So Meta has a 24-hour rule where if they respond after 24 hours, um, it’s not actually part of the automation. So they, they can’t beyond 24 hours engage in an automation anymore.

[00:12:00] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:12:01] Gannon: Um, which is-

[00:12:02] Nathan: Which prevents you- Whatever … from doing mass marketing or-

[00:12:05] Gannon: Yeah …

[00:12:05] Nathan: like Meta’s worried about people using it for spam or something else. Yeah,

[00:12:07] Gannon: yeah, exactly. So I usually, like, we default this to 12 hours, but if people- Okay … respond before that, it just pushes them along in the automation.

[00:12:14] Nathan: Okay. Yeah. So it’s just looking for a response.

[00:12:16] Gannon: It’s just m- listening- Okay … basically until the time, uh, timer goes up. But yeah, whatever they say goes into the output, and then Claude interprets that input- Yep … and then classifies them into an output.

[00:12:26] Nathan: Yep. Okay.

[00:12:27] Gannon: So we can, we can dive more on that ’cause I know it’s a little-

[00:12:29] Nathan: So basically-

[00:12:30] complicated but … yeah, what’s happening is, um-

[00:12:32] Gannon: It’s like a sorting hat in Harry Potter …

[00:12:34] Nathan: this is going in, and then we’re just gonna have that circle for Claude.

[00:12:37] Gannon: Yeah.

[00:12:38] Nathan: And then that’s gonna go into whatever the output is- Yeah … um, that’s going from there. And, and the output is the response back to the- Yeah.

[00:12:45] Gannon: So, like, you, you already kind of know, like, what your outputs are, right?

[00:12:49] Mm-hmm. You know, like, if you’re gonna create this as a multiple choice question, you have radio dials of, like, A, revenue, B, growth, um, client acquisition, whatever it is. But you give those radio responses- Mm … to Claude, and then you have Claude just categorize it for them.

[00:13:03] Nathan: Yep.

[00:13:03] Gannon: But the benefit of doing it this way is that you’ll get more accurate responses, and then you can use the actual language that your customers are using- Right

[00:13:10] and then use it for other things.

[00:13:12] Nathan: And ’cause you can use this, exactly as you’re saying, one-off-

[00:13:15] Gannon: Yeah …

[00:13:15] Nathan: to help segment that one subscriber. Yeah. But then you can m- zoom out a level and go up to that abstract level and be like, okay.

[00:13:21] Gannon: Yeah.

[00:13:22] Nathan: 500 people went through this. Yeah. What are they talking about? I mean,

[00:13:24] Gannon: we can talk about, like, what we did for Adrian and, and- Okay

[00:13:27] the camera example, right? Let’s do it. So, like, this, this is like, it’s, it’s camera, like, cinematographer stuff,

[00:13:32] Nathan: like- So for everyone who doesn’t know, uh, what’s Adrian’s content?

[00:13:34] Gannon: Adrian is a content creator who teaches other content creators how to, like, make cinematic videos. Okay. So we’re … He’s shooting on, like, a $5,000 camera, but now he’s shooting on his phone.

[00:13:42] So- Mm-hmm … just helping people make things cinematic. He was a- Okay … music video director, um, very deep in that scene. So he had this, um, this LUT pack, which is basically a filter that you put on a video to make it look nice and cinematic. Okay. And those LUTs were for different cameras. Mm-hmm. So he had one for a Sony camera.

[00:13:59] He had one for a, like, the handheld Pocket 3, and he kept making videos about the Pocket 3. And one be- Probably because he thought that, oh, this is what most, like, the everyman creator- Yeah, yeah …

[00:14:10] Nathan: is

[00:14:10] Gannon: probably using. Yeah, ’cause it, price point wise- Yeah … it’s more accessible to that audience. But we, we went through, we, we asked the question.

[00:14:17] So we had, like, the free, um, well, he, he would post content about it, and then he would drive to a sales page.

[00:14:22] Nathan: Okay.

[00:14:23] Gannon: But what we did was we asked them what camera they were using, and then we sent them to a sales page for that offer. For that camera. So instead of going to, like, the menu again- Mm-hmm … right, like 40 different things on a menu, you just go to the particular thing you want based off of what we know about you.

[00:14:37] So he kept making videos about the Pocket 3, and we realized that only 8% of his audience was using the Pocket 3. So I’m like, “Dude, make more videos about the Sony. There’s 43% of your audience right now who is using a Sony camera.” Mm-hmm. The other, like, half is using an iPhone. So if you wanna sell more Sony LUTs, just make more Sony videos, and he did, and it crushed.

[00:14:57] Right. Okay. So it’s not just like now we, we tag this person in Kit that they use a Sony camera, it’s we know that 43% of our audience uses a Sony camera, so now we can make- Mm … better content decisions. So it’s like macro and it’s micro, or macro and micro. Yeah,

[00:15:10] Nathan: so that would be an, an example of an open-ended question is, like, what-

[00:15:13] Gannon: Yeah

[00:15:13] what kind of camera do you use?

[00:15:14] Nathan: Yeah. And so I can just pull it out and I can type in whatever else and, and-

[00:15:18] Gannon: Yeah … and

[00:15:19] Nathan: move

[00:15:19] Gannon: on to the next one. And the typing, like, of the experience of that is much better than just clicking, like, A, B, C, or D. Yeah. It just makes it seem more human, but people just aren’t familiar with, like, conversational.

[00:15:27] Okay,

[00:15:27] Nathan: because ManyChat will happily let you-

[00:15:29] Gannon: Oh, you can- … choose

[00:15:30] Nathan: A, B, C, or D.

[00:15:31] Gannon: Oh, yeah, yeah.

[00:15:31] Nathan: And you’re saying don’t do that.

[00:15:33] Gannon: Yeah, I mean, you c- it’s, it’s easier to set it up that way, but we use cloud ’cause we wanna make it seem conversational. Right. Like, people don’t know they’re ta- they’re talking to an automation.

[00:15:40] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:15:41] Gannon: It’s, uh, it’s very conversational. And is

[00:15:42] Nathan: that the same, like, across all of your

[00:15:43] Gannon: clients? Yeah, we don’t, we don’t use multiple choice questions.

[00:15:45] Nathan: Okay.

[00:15:46] Gannon: Yeah.

[00:15:46] Nathan: Mm.

[00:15:46] Gannon: Okay, so we said, um, like, good versus bad. Yeah. Is that good versus bad questions, or you’re, like, open-ended? Like,

[00:15:52] Nathan: can we make a list of, like, do this, not that?

[00:15:54] Gannon: Um, yeah, so when … Well, there’s, there’s things that are good about open-ended questions, and then there’s things about, that are bad about open que- open-ended questions, but there’s also good ways to ask an open-ended question, and the bad way to open it, ask an open-ended question. Okay,

[00:16:07] Nathan: yeah, let’s dive in on that part

[00:16:08] Gannon: of it.

[00:16:08] Yeah. All right. So yeah, so you, like, whenever we’re asking somebody a question, we’re trying to figure out, like, where are they trying to go.

[00:16:14] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:16:14] Gannon: Right? So if-

[00:16:16] Nathan: Yeah, what should I write down?

[00:16:17] Gannon: Yeah, so, like, what are your goals in the next, like- Mm-hmm … 6 to 12 months? Goals and timeline. Yep.

[00:16:21] Nathan: There we go.

[00:16:22] Gannon: Um, I mean, it’s like, like, that’s pretty much, like, what we’re doing.

[00:16:24] Like, that’s the main segmenting question, right? We can ask other-

[00:16:27] Nathan: So what’s the

[00:16:28] Gannon: example- … like, accessory questions … would

[00:16:29] Nathan: you say as generically as, like- What, w- what’s the … If Adrian were to use a goals and timeline question-

[00:16:35] Gannon: Yeah …

[00:16:35] Nathan: what would it be?

[00:16:36] Gannon: It would be like, why, why do you wanna make cinematic videos?

[00:16:39] Mm-hmm. Like, is it for audience growth? Do you wanna look- Mm … more, um, professional because you wanna attract more clients? So would a lot of

[00:16:43] Nathan: these questions start with why?

[00:16:45] Gannon: Yeah. It’s usually- Okay … a why question.

[00:16:46] Nathan: Yep.

[00:16:47] Gannon: Yeah. Yeah, why is more open-ended than, like, what, right? Mm. Like, what do you use- Yep … versus why do you use it.

[00:16:53] Nathan: Yep.

[00:16:53] Gannon: Or why do you want to use it? Okay, so I’m

[00:16:54] Nathan: gonna go-

[00:16:55] Gannon: Uh, that’s, like, not necessarily bad, but it’s not gonna help somebody make a decision-

[00:17:00] Nathan: Right …

[00:17:00] Gannon: ultimately, right?

[00:17:01] Nathan: Yep. That makes sense.

[00:17:02] Gannon: Um, at least for, like, a higher ticket offer, right? Because, like, if you’re selling a $39 lut, like, what camera do you use, of course, it’s gonna help them make a decision.

[00:17:10] But it’s like

[00:17:10] Nathan: w- Okay. So you might u- Yeah. Would you ever use both, like in this case?

[00:17:16] Gannon: Well, yeah. I m- m- we do this for, like, applications for what we do. Mm-hmm. So I run automations for applications in my DMs. And I’m always like, “You know, what platforms do you use? What’s your current revenue?” Mm-hmm. “But, like, why are you trying to figure out ManyChat right now?”

[00:17:29] Nathan: So then, w- do we … We’re gonna have a flow then that starts- Yeah … with, uh, what camera do you use, or, you know, why are you trying to-

[00:17:38] Gannon: Yeah …

[00:17:39] Nathan: do that. It’s usually multiple. And then later on, it’s gonna ask-

[00:17:40] Gannon: Yeah …

[00:17:41] Nathan: other questions?

[00:17:42] Gannon: Yeah. So, you’re basically, like … For, for lower ticket, it’s … I think it’s fine to ask just, like- Mm

[00:17:48] what types of questions. But if you’re going for, you sell a service, or you sell a course where someone’s- Mm … gonna have to spend more than 100 bucks, you wanna get them talking.

[00:17:58] Nathan: Right.

[00:17:58] Gannon: And then it’s like a sales call, right? Like, you’re not gonna just be like, “What do you use? What do you use? What do you use?”

[00:18:03] Like, “All right, cool. I can recommend you this.” It’s just … No, it’s like- Why do you do this? … why are you here? Why are you here? Yeah. Yeah. Like, there’s something that caused you to, to trigger this automation. What was it? Tell me what it was.

[00:18:14] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:18:14] Gannon: And then as soon as we know that information, we then pitch everything else based off that.

[00:18:18] Nathan: Yeah. That makes sense. Okay, so then … Well, let’s go to the, the free side for a minute.

[00:18:23] Gannon: Yeah. What are- We can talk about content.

[00:18:24] Nathan: Yeah. The … What’s the, the free content that gets people to, to actually engage and, and to start this funnel?

[00:18:30] Gannon: Yeah, it’s … I mean, I have this, like, PSA style story that I use all the time, where it’s like, “PSA, if you have this problem-

[00:18:36] Nathan: Mm-hmm

[00:18:37] Gannon: you’re probably making this mistake. I used to make this mistake, and I got this result- Mm … by changing it.”

[00:18:42] Nathan: Okay. Yeah,

[00:18:42] Gannon: interesting. “But I’m not telling somebody how I changed it. In order to learn how I changed it, they have to get the free thing.”

[00:18:48] Nathan: Comment this

[00:18:49] Gannon: word. Yeah, reply with this, with this word, comment this word.

[00:18:52] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:18:52] Gannon: And it goes from there.

[00:18:53] Nathan: Oh, ’cause you’re … You said reply ’cause it’s also … It

[00:18:56] Gannon: could be a story. It’s a story. Yeah, it could be an Instagram story. Yep. It could be, like, a DM. It could be a comment on a post.

[00:18:59] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:19:00] Gannon: And, um, yeah, that’s … It’s typically PSA. But, like, there’s one f- i- if there’s, like, one framework that I try to teach, it’s, like, in order to get somebody to go through this automation, like, you have to tell them to do it.

[00:19:12] It sounds stupid. Right. But people don’t do it. It’s like, I just- Yeah … have this automation, and then they bury it. Like, in journalism, it’s called burying the lead, right? Mm-hmm. So, like, your, your call to action is your lead- Right … in your, your caption. So it should be the first thing people see.

[00:19:26] Nathan: And, uh, as a marketer, I used the correct lead there, right?

[00:19:28] Uh- Uh, yeah.

[00:19:29] Gannon: That’s right. The journal- Don’t do the lead, not L-E-A-D. That’s a jour- Yeah.

[00:19:33] Nathan: That’s a journalism lead, not a- Yeah … marketer’s

[00:19:35] Gannon: lead. Yeah. Um, yeah, so, like, you wanna have the call to action in the first sentence of the video. Mm. And, like, typically what most people do, like, if you, if you draw a re- retention chart, I know you probably can on this side, right?

[00:19:47] So, like, just draw, like, an X and Y axis. Yeah, something

[00:19:49] Nathan: like

[00:19:50] Gannon: that? Yeah, yeah. It’s good. So, like, as time goes on in the video, like, somebody might… They start watching here, so, like, just say that this is, um, duration of the video.

[00:19:59] Nathan: Yep.

[00:20:00] Gannon: And then as time goes on, there’s less and less people that are still on the video.

[00:20:05] Nathan: Right.

[00:20:05] Gannon: So what people do is they’re like, “Let me just put the call to action at the end, ’cause I don’t wanna seem salesy.” Mm-hmm. “But I still want people to go through it.” It’s just like, well, now you have 5% of your audience seeing it, so, like-

[00:20:14] Nathan: Right …

[00:20:15] Gannon: yeah. So what you can do is kinda like flip this, so it’s, this is the hook right here, right?

[00:20:20] Okay. And then you can say, “By the way, if you wanna learn more about this, just comment the word X at any point in the video.” Mm. “And I’ll send you more information.” Yeah. And then you just continue with that tutorial.

[00:20:28] Nathan: So we’re gonna get the CTA-

[00:20:30] Gannon: Yeah …

[00:20:30] Nathan: early. You said in the first sentence.

[00:20:33] Gannon: Yeah, I mean- So more, as early as possible

[00:20:34] I usually go, like, I usually go, like, hook, transition with, like, a short CTA-

[00:20:40] Nathan: Okay …

[00:20:40] Gannon: and then the rest of the video.

[00:20:42] Nathan: Yeah, okay. So you said hook, transition.

[00:20:44] Gannon: Mm-hmm.

[00:20:45] Nathan: Then we’re gonna have a CT- s- a smaller CTA?

[00:20:47] Gannon: Basically, yeah, a CTA.

[00:20:49] Nathan: So we’re gonna do

[00:20:50] Gannon: a CTA here. And then I’ll just write, like, meat of the content. I just write meat.

[00:20:55] Um. Just the bulk of the content.

[00:20:56] Nathan: And then another, like a- And then CTA … a full CTA. Yeah, so like- And this is gonna be, like, a bigger CTA. Um, okay, uh, give me a script of a video. Like, what, what’s one that you’ve done? What would the hook be?

[00:21:06] Gannon: Yeah, I mean, I do breakdowns of, like, creators and, like, how they run their business.

[00:21:09] So it’s like I spent the last, you know, 36 hours of my life reverse engineering how Nathan Barry runs his social media profile. Yeah. Um, and I learned that, you know, s- a- a- and if you do the same thing that Narry, uh, that Barr- uh, Nathan does then- Yep … this is, th- pay attention because this is what I would do, right?

[00:21:28] So it’s like you kind of set stakes, and you tell people what they’re going to learn. And if they know who you’re talking about, they’re gonna be like, “Oh, okay.” Mm-hmm. “So like he runs a similar type of business that I do. Let me pay attention.” And then you can say, “By the way, at any point, if you’re like, ‘I wanna learn this exact breakdown because I only have three minutes to teach it,’ I have a full YouTube video.

[00:21:45] Comment the word tube, and I’ll send it over to you.” And then you go through, like, the full thing. Mm-hmm. And then you’re like, “Again, if you want the full tutorial, I have three minutes. Like, I can’t do this in three minutes, but comment the word tube, and I’ll send it over to you.” Yeah.

[00:21:55] Nathan: Okay. So that’s that, that light touch on the CTA- Yeah

[00:21:58] and then a deeper touch-

[00:21:59] Gannon: Yeah …

[00:22:00] Nathan: um, on from there. What about from the storytelling side of things? Like, what makes a difference in actually retaining people through the s- you know, the stories that you’re telling or the narrative there?

[00:22:12] Gannon: Yeah, I mean, I’m actually … I’m in the process of writing one right now for, uh, the keynote that I’m giving.

[00:22:17] Nathan: Okay.

[00:22:17] Gannon: Um, so I have a partnership with a company who just released a new, uh, like, presentation remote.

[00:22:22] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:22:23] Gannon: And I’m like, how do I tell the story of, like, this being my first keynote and being, like, nervous because I’ve never talked in front of this many people, but also, like, the features of this remote and how it’s gonna help me prepare for this keynote?

[00:22:34] So I’m thinking about, like- You know, y- you have to set the stakes of, like, what’s actually the problem here that we’re trying to solve, and how are we gonna solve it?

[00:22:43] Nathan: Okay.

[00:22:44] Gannon: And it’s like before, during, and after, but it’s more than just, like, what people do is they’ll, like, tell the story and be like, “This happened, and this happened, and this happened, and then this happened, and then this happened.”

[00:22:56] So it’s like, “Oh, I have a presentation, and then I got this remote, and then I presented because the remote was cool. I did a good job, and that’s it.” It’s like, well, no, it has to be deeper than that. It’s like-

[00:23:04] Nathan: You need tension in it. Mm-hmm …

[00:23:05] Gannon: there’s something in the story that you have to talk about that will get somebody to continue wanting to watch to see what happens.

[00:23:12] Okay. So, like, an example of that is like, “I have my first keynote. Cool. Oh, I am anxious about this, and I’ve never pr- did a keynote in front of 500 people before, and I don’t know what I’m gonna do.” So it’s like, “I have a keynote, but I have this problem.”

[00:23:27] Nathan: Mm. ”

[00:23:28] Gannon: And then I wanna solve this, and you’re gonna come with me to solve this problem.”

[00:23:31] Okay. So it’s, this happened, but-

[00:23:35] Nathan: Mm-hmm …

[00:23:35] Gannon: this is going on, and we have to get somewhere else. And how do we do that? So in that,

[00:23:39] Nathan: if we were to map it out, ’cause I think a lot of people are gonna fall into the and, and, and-

[00:23:43] Gannon: Yeah, of course …

[00:23:44] Nathan: storytelling. So

[00:23:44] Gannon: we’re

[00:23:45] Nathan: contrasting these two. Well, for,

[00:23:45] Gannon: for tutorial based, it’s, it’s definitely gonna be and, and, and.

[00:23:48] But, you know, you wanna somehow set the stakes of this.

[00:23:52] Nathan: So it’s like we’re like this and this and this. So w- what you’re saying is that we’re gonna say, like, “This happened, but-”

[00:24:02] Gannon: Yeah … ”

[00:24:03] Nathan: this, therefore, the end.”

[00:24:06] Gannon: Yeah. The end. There we go. So, like, an example of this and, like, what I’ve tried to get good at is doing this tutorial based.

[00:24:14] Nathan: Oh, okay.

[00:24:15] Gannon: Right? So, like, how do I teach a tutorial but also set stakes- Mm … for why somebody should watch?

[00:24:20] Nathan: Okay.

[00:24:20] Gannon: So an example of that is, like, how I structure almost all of my videos where I do breakdowns. It’s like I spent 96 hours doing this and researching how they run their business. And I think there is something they can fix.

[00:24:33] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:24:34] Gannon: And then you explain what they’re currently doing well, and then you go into, like, what they could fix. The payoff. So like, the but is, is the transition- Right … there, right? Um- Let’s use an

[00:24:45] Nathan: example of this because, uh- Yeah … two days ago, we- … got to hang out- That’s right … in the mountains of Idaho. And you came flying with me.

[00:24:54] That’s

[00:24:54] Gannon: right. I flew the plane.

[00:24:55] Nathan: You flew the plane. I definitely flew the

[00:24:56] Gannon: plane,

[00:24:57] Nathan: to be clear. We have video evidence of you

[00:24:59] Gannon: flying the

[00:24:59] Nathan: plane.

[00:24:59] Gannon: That’s right.

[00:24:59] Nathan: Mm-hmm. So you, you made an Instagram video about this. Most people would say, “I was going to Boise, and I really like airplanes.” Yeah,

[00:25:06] Gannon: yeah. ”

[00:25:07] Nathan: And, uh, so I thought maybe I’d reach out to Nathan, and then it worked out, and I got to go flying.”

[00:25:13] Gannon: Yeah, that’s it. It’s like, okay, well, thanks for sharing. I’m glad it kept that to yourself. Yeah, exactly. It’s cool, but like, uh,

[00:25:17] Nathan: thank you. It’s like, “I’m happy for you.” Yeah. Or the response you get is like, “That’s cool.”

[00:25:21] Gannon: Yeah. “Good

[00:25:22] Nathan: job.” Uh, I think- Your video does not follow that

[00:25:23] Gannon: formula. No. Uh, so, like, I, I actually think I could have done a better job with the video.

[00:25:27] Um, the reason why I like the word but is because I think … Like, this might sound woo-woo, but it’s an opportunity to, like, express who you are and, like, what you’ve gone through, right? So, like, for the presentation, the keynote, it’s like, “I’m about to give a keynote, but I have anxiety.” Right. Like, “I d- I’m not comfortable onstage.

[00:25:46] We’re gonna see what happens.” And then it’s like, for the video that we did, uh, on the plane, it’s like, “I’m about to go to Idaho, but I don’t wanna just go to Idaho.”

[00:25:54] Nathan: Right. ”

[00:25:54] Gannon: I have an opportunity to do something with the CEO of a company who owns a plane.” Yeah. “So let’s see if we can get on the plane.” Yep. And, like, that’s kind of setting the stakes, but it’s also like- And then you build

[00:26:02] Nathan: up to like, “Is it going to work?”

[00:26:03] You know? Like, you’re like, “Oh, he, uh, he liked

[00:26:07] Gannon: my post.” He s- “He followed me.” He liked my post. He followed me. His team reached out, and then, like, he picked me up at the hotel. And he started wheeling the plane out. I’m like, “Oh, okay, this is happening.” “This is happening.” Yeah. “This is, this is not fake. No, this is real.”

[00:26:17] But yeah, like, it … When you use but, it’s just an opportunity to, like, share with people, like, what’s happening and how you’re thinking. Um, and y- yeah, like there’s, there’s ways to do it that are, like, not as, like, deep and personal, that you don’t have to go crazy with, like, you know, telling people about your personal life.

[00:26:32] But it’s just a, an example of, like, showing how you think, right? So the tutorial example is like, “I studied this person’s funnel, but based on my work with clients, I think it could actually be a little bit better. So let me show you what’s working and show you what I would change and why I would change it.”

[00:26:47] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:26:47] Gannon: And then you just do that.

[00:26:48] Nathan: Something that stood out to me in your video is the way that you made it, like, a, so much of a personal story. And it wasn’t just one but, it was like-

[00:26:57] Gannon: Yeah … ‘

[00:26:57] Nathan: cause the payoff was, oh, you’re actually going flying.

[00:26:59] Gannon: Yeah.

[00:27:00] Nathan: But then you had the later of, like, but it’s actually bumpy.

[00:27:05] Like, we’re flying over- It’s, it’s

[00:27:05] Gannon: bumpy.

[00:27:06] Nathan: I’m flying the plane. Yeah, like, I was trying

[00:27:09] Gannon: to

[00:27:09] Nathan: be like … I love the line where you’re like, “My man.” I said I wanna fly in your plane. Like, are you sure? Are you sure about that? I wanna fly your plane. You did great. If everyone’s

[00:27:18] Gannon: wondering-

[00:27:18] Nathan: Thank you … if you was watching, Gannon’s a great pilot.

[00:27:20] Gannon: I’m not, I’m way back, you know. It was, it was a little bit better, but

[00:27:24] Nathan: you know. We did all right. You’re weaving that all the way through.

[00:27:27] Gannon: Yeah.

[00:27:27] Nathan: If we take that video, that video is exactly 60 seconds long.

[00:27:30] Gannon: Yeah.

[00:27:31] Nathan: Uh, why is it 60 seconds long?

[00:27:33] Gannon: I don’t think it needs more than that. Okay. I think it’s like, you know, what is, what is the, the way that I wanna come across with my audience?

[00:27:40] Mm. And, like, what do I wanna share? And I think the video is more about how I’m willing to just put myself out there to do- Yeah … side quests than it is of just, like, “Hey, let me message the CEO and get on a plane.”

[00:27:53] Nathan: Right.

[00:27:53] Gannon: It’s like, no, this is what happens when you just put things out in the universe and just see what happens.

[00:27:58] So it’s more about that than it is about, like, Gannon was on a plane in the middle of- Right … Idaho, right? It’s like, we don’t know. Um, yeah, so like 60 seconds, the way that I kind of like think about videos is, like, if I write this and I read it in my head like 15 times, it’s always what can I remove, what can I remove, what can I remove?

[00:28:17] Mm. And if the video still makes sense, I remove it. But if I’m like, I can remove this sentence, and the video’s still good, it’s gone. But if it’s there, and I’m like, this doesn’t really contribute to, like, whatever plot is in my head, like if I was telling this at a dinner table, like somebody’d be like, “Yeah, you probably don’t need to, like, mention that.”

[00:28:34] Right. They would never say that, but it’s like what contributes to the, to the emotion and, like, what’s happening in this video? And if it doesn’t contribute to anything, then just get rid of it. Yeah, it’s like giving yourself a rubric, but if you do it 4,000 times, it’s gonna make sense eventually. But- That’s just how my brain works at this point.

[00:28:50] So,

[00:28:51] Nathan: so then how do you know when a video is done, or a script is done?

[00:28:54] Gannon: Yes. When you, when there’s nothing else… This is like a quote. If I’m gonna… If, if… I wish I put this in like my senior year- Yeah … like high school quote, but it’s like, “Something is done not when there’s nothing else left to add, but when there’s nothing else left to remove.”

[00:29:06] Yeah. Right? I forget. It’s, that’s an artist quote. I forget who it was.

[00:29:08] Nathan: Antoine de Saint Exupery- Probably …

[00:29:11] Gannon: I believe. Yeah, yeah.

[00:29:11] Nathan: However you say his name. His name. Um- We

[00:29:14] Gannon: give him credit.

[00:29:15] Nathan: Uh, yeah, but then that’s such an important thing.

[00:29:18] Gannon: Yeah.

[00:29:18] Nathan: Because when I make Instagram content, this is why yours works and mine doesn’t.

[00:29:21] Is I just like, uh, rattle something off and I’m like, “Ah, it’s pretty good. Post it.”

[00:29:25] Gannon: Yeah. You know? I mean, it works for some people, but I think like, it’s the people who have done like the actual scripting-

[00:29:33] Nathan: Mm-hmm …

[00:29:34] Gannon: so many times, or they just consume so much where they just know kinda like what’s the format that I need to follow here.

[00:29:40] Mm-hmm. And I feel like I can pick up a camera and just yab like, which is like the most- Right … popular format of videos right now, but I’ll still have to cut things out. Mm-hmm. Right? So like, uh, I’m not trying to fulfill a 60-second video, I’m just trying to cut things down to where it makes sense, and it just so happens that it is 60 seconds.

[00:29:57] Nathan: Right.

[00:29:57] Gannon: Yeah.

[00:29:58] Nathan: That

[00:29:58] Gannon: makes sense.

[00:29:59] Nathan: Okay, so what else, if we’re talking about the, the free side, or the at- attention or all of that- Mm-hmm … is there anything else that we haven’t covered that, that’s important?

[00:30:07] Gannon: Yeah, I mean, it’s, it’s really like, I, I think the big thing on the free side is that your stories are gonna get the most engaged people.

[00:30:15] Nathan: Okay.

[00:30:15] Gannon: So like, if you think about like a- And you don’t mean storytelling,

[00:30:17] Nathan: you mean-

[00:30:17] Gannon: No, just like your actual Instagram stories … your, your Instagram stories, the feature. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So like, if there’s anything that somebody’s gonna do today, it’s take a selfie, delete all of your Instagram stories right now, or archive them, post that selfie, put PSA if you have this problem, you’re probably making this mistake.

[00:30:32] Mm. If you wanna solve it, I solved it this way. And if you wanna learn- Okay … how to do it, we’ll go through that. We’re

[00:30:36] Nathan: diving into this. What marker am I using? So we’re doing an Instagram story.

[00:30:40] Gannon: Yeah.

[00:30:40] Nathan: This,

[00:30:41] Gannon: this vertical box. So yeah, yeah. And you can draw like a self-portrait here, and it’s like a, it’s a Nathan selfie.

[00:30:46] There we go. There it is. Uh, look at that.

[00:30:48] Nathan: Uh, you got style. And so we’re just going PSA. Yeah,

[00:30:51] Gannon: big PSA on top. And then- It’s like, if you have X problem- Yeah … if you’re, if you’re currently dealing with this, you’re probably making this mistake. So it’s like if you’re not making money on Instagram, or you’re not making money through your Instagram story, you’re probably not following the PSA format.

[00:31:08] And people are like, “What is the PSA format?” Right?

[00:31:11] Nathan: And are you saying?

[00:31:13] Gannon: No, it’s just a video. So like, or it’s, it’s a, it’s a picture, so it’s just like this sentence would go here, right? So like, if you’re making this mistake, or if you have this problem making this mistake, and then the next sentence, which if you wanna write out you can, would be, “I got this result by following a new format.”

[00:31:28] Mm. Like, this would be like I, I f- I solved it by doing this.

[00:31:32] Nathan: And so then we’re going, um, so we’re just like, uh,

[00:31:36] Gannon: result, method- For like, I would say cred- cred- credibility too. Like, I solved this problem by doing, by changing this Yeah, and like result and credibility plus like what was the method behind doing it.

[00:31:50] Without explanation. But, but also, yeah, like vague. Like very vague.

[00:31:53] Nathan: Method, there we go. And we’re going vague. The result said in a way that gives you credibility. The method stated in a way that’s-

[00:32:01] Gannon: Yeah …

[00:32:01] Nathan: that’s vague.

[00:32:02] Gannon: Yeah, yeah. And then- So it’s reply. Yeah. Just so it’s like call to action. Uh-huh. It’s like, “I stopped by doing this.

[00:32:08] If you want to learn how to do it…” And then that is, uh, about the same size as the p- the PSA, so you’re just like CTA right here. I usually do like a different color, like yellow background- Mm … black text, whatever- Yep … like it needs to be, but-

[00:32:20] Nathan: And the CTA is just, “You wanna learn how to do it, reply.” Reply

[00:32:25] Gannon: tube if you want the full tutorial.

[00:32:27] If somebody who has like… I mean, i- it’s gonna be different for everybody, but this- Yep … typically, for me, reaches like 15 to 20% of my followers. Or it’ll get- Oh, wow … 50… Well, it might not all be my followers- Sure … ’cause some people will send it to other people, but it’ll be like roughly a 20% margin of like what my follower count is.

[00:32:44] So- This’ll be like 30,000 views on this …

[00:32:47] Nathan: if you have an audience on Instagram, but you’re not making money, you’re probably making this mistake.

[00:32:52] Gannon: Yeah, you’re probably not using the PSA story framework.

[00:32:55] Nathan: Yep.

[00:32:55] Gannon: Yeah.

[00:32:56] Nathan: I used it-

[00:32:58] Gannon: Yes …

[00:32:58] Nathan: to make X result.

[00:33:01] Gannon: It got 30,000 views and made me $1,500 in 24 hours.

[00:33:05] Nathan: Yep.

[00:33:05] Gannon: If you wanna learn what I’m talking about, just reply with this, and I’ll send it over to you.

[00:33:09] Mm. That’s a lead magnet. And then you collect name and email. You send them to whatever page you have the tutorial on. It could be like a Loom video, Televideo, whatever it is, and then you follow up 20 minutes later.

[00:33:22] Nathan: The free side, this could be reels. This could be stories.

[00:33:26] Gannon: Carousel posts as

[00:33:26] Nathan: well. Carousel posts.

[00:33:27] Gannon: Yeah.

[00:33:28] Nathan: Um, how many times, like in all of your content, how many times would you weave in- … one of these things?

[00:33:33] Gannon: A lot. Okay. Um, I can say it. I, like I can do it often, I think, because people just have come to know me for being like- Mm-hmm … that automation ManyChat guy, so like it’s not gonna like turn anybody off.

[00:33:44] If I had to give somebody a number, probably like 70 to 80% of the time, I think you’d have… you should have a CTA in all of your content. Okay. Mm-hmm. Um, obviously, some of my videos are like more personal, so I’m not gonna be like, “Hey, I just proposed to my girlfriend. You know, comment wedding if you wanna like, you know, see how we’re planning our wedding.”

[00:34:03] Like, we just don’t do that.

[00:34:04] Nathan: So something else I wanna talk about is the… There’s this idea on a lot of platforms that if you send traffic off platform or if you do something that is like selfish to benefit you-

[00:34:14] Gannon: Yeah …

[00:34:15] Nathan: then the platform will penal- penalize you.

[00:34:16] Gannon: Yeah.

[00:34:16] Nathan: But if I look at anyone’s profile, and let’s say, I don’t know, there’s a nice little, their face up here, and then, uh, I don’t know, they’ve got 10K subs- Yep

[00:34:26] or followers, right? If we have a grid of posts, and one of them-

[00:34:32] Gannon: Yeah … you know, I’m scrolling through it,

[00:34:33] Nathan: and w- you know, it’s like 2,000 to 3,000, 2,000, whatever, and then this one right here-

[00:34:39] Gannon: Mm-hmm …

[00:34:40] Nathan: has 50,000 views. There’s like a 90% chance that this has a comment to DM on it 100%,

[00:34:49] Gannon: yeah. And it’s, it’s actually 100% they do.

[00:34:50] Yeah, so like if you go on your Instagram like analytics, your insights for a post, it’ll- Mm … actually, I think their most recent update lists the, uh, engagement in order of like how important it is for being recommended to a new audience.

[00:35:01] Nathan: Okay.

[00:35:02] Gannon: So it’ll show like Saves, sends, comments, likes, and I don’t know, I think that might be it.

[00:35:10] I think there’s like- Mm-hmm … four or five of them. But, like, comments are still ranked pretty high. So, like, when you have a ManyChat automation turned on, it counts as a comment, and then when you reply back to their comment with a ManyChat automation, it doubles the amount of comments on the post.

[00:35:24] Nathan: Wild that that

[00:35:25] Gannon: works.

[00:35:25] So, like, uh, like, people have said, like, it doesn’t really have any effect on the content, but, like- Mm … why is it that every time I do it, it has, like, a 4X outlier? Like, the data just tells me that whoever is saying that that doesn’t make sense is, is just incorrect.

[00:35:40] Nathan: Yeah, and I mean, like, I am a, um, amateur, a student, student from a distance.

[00:35:46] Yeah. And I’m like, “This stands out ridiculously.”

[00:35:48] Gannon: Yeah.

[00:35:48] Nathan: Um, okay, so if you, if we were to, like, pull up my content right now- Mm-hmm … what you’d see is I, instead of 70 to 80% of content having a CTA- Yeah. I’m probably 3 to 5%. 3 to 5%. And so you probably think I’m insane, right?

[00:36:02] Gannon: Like, what would your CTA be? I mean, we can do, like, a masterclass.

[00:36:04] Okay. Like, ro- like, roast of Nathan’s content right now. Yeah. Like…

[00:36:08] Nathan: Um, I mean, there’s a bunch of things that I could do.

[00:36:10] Gannon: Yeah.

[00:36:10] Nathan: I don’t have a lot of lead magnets, um, and that kind of thing.

[00:36:14] Gannon: So, like, for your book, like, what are

[00:36:15] Nathan: you doing for your book? Yeah, so CTA for the book. Yeah. Uh, so the book is The Ladders of Wealth.

[00:36:18] Yeah. Comes out December 8th.

[00:36:19] Gannon: Ooh. Pre-order.

[00:36:21] Nathan: Uh, okay, so we could do a sample chapter.

[00:36:23] Gannon: Yeah.

[00:36:23] Nathan: I have a free email course on- Cool … um, like, how to grow your audience- Cool … that I’m working on putting together. Um, any content I do have about flywheels, I have, like, a library of 10 flywheels. Yeah. Um, those are kind of things that exist today.

[00:36:40] Gannon: So the goal is to eventually get somebody to pre-order or buy the book- Yeah … when it comes out, right?

[00:36:45] Nathan: Yeah, that’d be great.

[00:36:45] Gannon: So who in your audience, like, what are the groups of people in your audience who are best served from this book? Like, entrepreneurs or, like, early career entrepreneurs? Yeah,

[00:36:54] Nathan: anyone, um, any, any entrepreneur.

[00:36:57] Yeah. They could be early, probably early or mid-stage. Yeah. Late stage, they’re gonna be like, honestly, the late stage love, they love frameworks. Yeah. They love all of that. So entrepreneurs in

[00:37:05] Gannon: general. You can also, like, just poll your audience- Mm-hmm … with your newsletter and just be like, “Where are you at in your career?”

[00:37:11] Like, you know, for, for me, it’s like I wanna understand how you built Kit. Mm. And, like, maybe some of your past mistakes with your previous companies and, like, how I can not make those mistakes moving forward. But it’s helpful for you to know, like, why am I interested in this book, right? So if you talk about it in your content, and you’re like, “Hey, I’m releasing it on December 8th if you want a free chapter of it,” because now they have context of what the book’s about.

[00:37:36] Yeah. Now you know, like, how am I gonna eventually get this person to pre-order it? Like, what is the information that I need from this person in order to pitch it properly? And it might just be like, “What are your career goals?” Yeah. Like, do you wanna be this entrepreneur? Do you wanna, like- You know, whatever this is at D- but you can even go

[00:37:51] Nathan: go fully open-ended.

[00:37:52] You could just say What are your, yeah, what are your money related g- like, why do you wanna start a business?

[00:37:56] Gannon: Yeah, like it’s, that’s it. And

[00:37:57] Nathan: someone would be like, “I

[00:37:57] Gannon: don’t.” It’s like,

[00:37:58] Nathan: okay, fine.

[00:37:59] Gannon: Yeah.

[00:37:59] Nathan: But

[00:38:00] Gannon: And then you can just like liquid code and be like, s- you di- you mentioned that you didn’t wanna start a business, but you’re here for my book, so, like, what made you want- What’s up, man?

[00:38:06] Yeah. Like, how you doing? Um, but that’s like, that’s basically what we do. So, like- Mm-hmm … you know, you, uh, i- even if your pre-order link is not open yet, you can still start building, like, that pre-order wait list.

[00:38:18] Nathan: Right.

[00:38:18] Gannon: And then just get whatever information you need from your audience of like- Right … maybe it’s that why question, and then you put that into a custom field in Kit, and then you just start every email off with that same line.

[00:38:28] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:38:28] Gannon: So, like, if this, if subscriber customer field equals, um, or is like, you know- entrepreneur or aspiring entrepreneur, whatever it would be. It’s how do we start the email off with that, and then pitch them in the rest of the email the same way that everybody else gets that same email. Yeah. Right? So I think it’s just about, like, you have to understand that people have more context than you realize after watching a video.

[00:38:55] Nathan: Mm.

[00:38:55] Gannon: And they’ve taken the action to request even more information. So people tend to over explain in their ManyChat automation. So like, “I can’t wait for you to see my tutorial. I’m gonna cover X, Y, Z.” I’m like, they know that. Like, you don’t have to say it again. So they just want the thing. Right. And you can just send it to them, they can register.

[00:39:14] So what I would do if I were you, is I would add them to, like, a form in Kit.

[00:39:16] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:39:17] Gannon: And then five minutes later ask them, like, what they’re looking forward to most about the book. Like, what are they trying to solve in their life right now that they think the book will help with? And then you take that information, add them to, like, what I call a phantom form.

[00:39:30] So it’s a form that doesn’t exist anywhere, like, on a website. Publicly. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So we just use that to transfer data over-

[00:39:36] Nathan: Mm-hmm …

[00:39:36] Gannon: um, and update their contact.

[00:39:38] Nathan: Okay. So

[00:39:38] Gannon: yeah.

[00:39:39] Nathan: So, uh, let’s go with another example. Let, let’s say, ’cause my other world besides writing books- Yeah. … is, is I run Kit. That’s

[00:39:46] Gannon: right.

[00:39:46] Nathan: You know? And I would like to get lots of creators to- Yeah … set up their email list on Kit.

[00:39:50] Gannon: Yeah.

[00:39:50] Nathan: Uh, you’ve done a lot of content about Kit. Mm-hmm. You know, uh, you work with a lot of Kit customers. You bring us lots of customers. That’s right. Thank you for that. That’s right. Um, what… You know, if I was putting out content directly to promote Kit- Mm-hmm

[00:40:03] you know, and that’s the sale that we’re trying to make, is to get a creator to sign up either for a free or paid, paid account.

[00:40:07] Gannon: Yeah.

[00:40:07] Nathan: What’s the flow that you would put together? Like, type of, like, things we would emphasize on the free end and kind of the segmenting that we would do.

[00:40:12] Gannon: Well, I think, I think you’re in a unique position because, like, you have the power to leverage the CEO thing.

[00:40:17] Mm-hmm. But you also don’t wanna step on, like, other people’s toes and be like, why is the CEO of a company, like, telling me that what I’m doing is wrong? Mm-hmm. So you have to be- There’s a line to walk … careful with that. Um, I would do more, like, case studies, I think. Okay. But also kind of show, like, your way of thinking.

[00:40:35] Like, if you were brought in to, like, consult with this creator on how they would, they should run Kit, show them how they would do it. And what’s gonna happen is, like, people like that creator who might follow them, like, you’re kind of leveraging their audience.

[00:40:48] Nathan: Right.

[00:40:48] Gannon: But they might have people in their audience who are interested in, like, what they do and might have a similar business and be like, “Oh, shit.

[00:40:54] Like, Kit might be the thing that I wanna try.” Uh, that’s what works for me.

[00:40:59] Nathan: Yep.

[00:40:59] Gannon: I think it’s less about, um… I feel like the game you’re, you’re playing on, on the content side right now is more, like, you know, documenting and, like- trying to connect more with the audience, which is, which is good. But I don’t know if it’s going to create, like, i- incentivize people to start, like, in maybe signing up for Kit.

[00:41:20] Nathan: Right. Like- If there’s one thing that we care about- Yeah … is, and that’s making money-

[00:41:23] Gannon: That’s right. …

[00:41:24] Nathan: from Instagram. And so that’s something that would change. So what I hear you saying is you’re noticing my content is about connection, about relevance, like all of those things, and you’re like, “Great.”

[00:41:33] Gannon: Yeah.

[00:41:34] Nathan: Happy for you. Glad it’s working.

[00:41:35] Gannon: Yeah.

[00:41:36] Nathan: But if you want leads,

[00:41:37] Gannon: and you want revenue- It’s like, why do, why do people use Kit? Because- They wanna make- … for, for me, it’s like I think it’s the best UI, UX experience. Mm-hmm. It’s simple. It does exactly what I need it to do, and it has an integration with ManyChat.

[00:41:48] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:41:49] Gannon: And it does, it checks all the boxes for, like, what I need. But somebody else might be like, “Well, it has the creator network, and that’s where I wanna get those recommendations from,” or, “It allows me to sell products. It has liquid code,” which is one of my check boxes too.

[00:42:00] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:42:00] Gannon: Right? So, like, there’s a balance between what do I do in my content that’s gonna help me connect with my audience.

[00:42:07] Mm-hmm. So, like, for me, it’s like I was on your plane. Right. That was a- Like, it has nothing to do with ManyChat.

[00:42:11] Nathan: That was very much a connection

[00:42:12] Gannon: post. Right. I don’t care how m- how many likes it gets. Like, if, if it makes somebody, like, I can post things on the internet- Mm-hmm … then it’ll eventually get me to a point where, like, you realize you can just do things.

[00:42:22] Shout out to Jay

[00:42:23] Nathan: Yang. Well, like, yeah, Jay Yang. Yeah. That’s who I was

[00:42:25] Gannon: thinking of.

[00:42:25] Nathan: Yeah. He, he comments. He’s like, “Turns

[00:42:27] Gannon: out you can just do things.” I, I tagged him in the, yeah, I com- I tagged him in the c- in the caption. Um, but, like, for me, it’s like 20% of that is connection with- Mm-hmm … connecting with the audience, and then 80% is like what do I have to do in order to actually get people to pull the trigger?

[00:42:40] Mm-hmm. And the 80%, like- If, if I had like, you know, if, if these were all small boxes on this, like maybe there’s like, I don’t know, 3,000 boxes on here, like, like 2,400 of them are like, “This is sales content.” Like, I want people to hire me.

[00:42:56] Nathan: Right.

[00:42:56] Gannon: And the rest is like, how can I get people to understand that I’m a human being?

[00:43:00] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:43:00] Gannon: Um, like what’s my first pinned post on my Instagram profile?

[00:43:04] Nathan: The … What is it? What does it

[00:43:06] Gannon: have? Maybe you don’t, you don’t send me my Instagram content.

[00:43:08] Nathan: I haven’t seen

[00:43:08] Gannon: it in years. It’s the start here one, right? Okay. So like they understand who I am, like as a person. So like it’s not just like, “Hey, I have this service.

[00:43:15] You should buy it.” It’s like, “I built this thing, and here’s why I built it.” Mm. “Because I have this background experience with like coming from a small neighborhood, low income, you know, parents got foreclosed on.” It’s like, “I started this business because all of that happened.”

[00:43:28] Nathan: I mean, I should probably make one of those posts.

[00:43:29] Gannon: 100%, right? It’s part of your book. Right. Like it’s part, it’s like part of your book. So it’s, it’s that, and then the s- second pinned post is me proposing to my girlfriend.

[00:43:37] Nathan: Mm.

[00:43:38] Gannon: And then I don’t have a third pinned post because I’m like those things are more important than the business, I feel like- Right

[00:43:42] obviously. Um, but I can’t tell you how many people have like just saved the, the start here post, and even like the picture of my fiance. I’m like, “This is weird.” “Why are there so many people saving it?” But I, I think it just- Because they’re

[00:43:53] Nathan: actually re- probably trying to remember you as a person.

[00:43:55] Gannon: Yeah, and like there’s so many comments in the start here, and it’s, it’s

[00:43:58] That was not my intention with doing it. But it has just like helped people connect with me at a deeper level because like at any point, 50 new people can pop up in like this automation space. But why would somebody come to me?

[00:44:12] Nathan: Right.

[00:44:12] Gannon: Right? So that’s the message I’m, I’m trying to get across, and you can do that with a 70/30, 80/20 split.

[00:44:19] Nathan: Now, you have 190,000 followers. Yeah. So if we look at this-

[00:44:23] Gannon: That number’s kind of crazy to say out loud.

[00:44:24] Nathan: We, we, if we look at this grid, you know, if that was your profile and we underline the follower count, right? There’s a lot.

[00:44:29] Gannon: Yeah.

[00:44:30] Nathan: But you don’t care about followers. Like that is not a metric-

[00:44:33] Gannon: They’re … …

[00:44:34] Nathan: that like truly matters,

[00:44:36] Gannon: but- I talked about this.

[00:44:36] Um, my friend Tom Noske posted about it, and then I saw Jay, uh, post about it. He was like- Jay Clouse? Yeah, Jay Clouse. So he’s like, “More and more creators are becoming unpaid spokespeople for AI tools.” And I’m like, “Why? Because the content just absolutely crushes.”

[00:44:51] Nathan: Mm.

[00:44:52] Gannon: Mm-hmm. And then I made a, a series, which I’m still doing, ’cause I think it’s just fun to make, but I made a series, uh, for Claude called Claude-mations.

[00:45:00] Mm. Just like what can I automate with Claude in terms of marketing? I mean, those videos do, like, at least 100,000 views every single one. Uh, I had one post get me, like, 20,000 new followers after just months of stagnation on my, on my page. And I’m like- Right … I wanna do more of this. Like, this is exhilarating.

[00:45:16] Like, I wake up and I’m like, “Oh my God, I have 5,000 new followers from last night.” And I’m just like, “I’m paying somebody to edit these videos. Those videos are not making me money right now.”

[00:45:26] Nathan: Mm.

[00:45:26] Gannon: They might in the future. Like, I’ve had, you know, businesses reach out and companies reach out being like, “Hey, can we do a, a sponsorship for, like, our new integration with Claude or something?”

[00:45:34] Like- Yeah … we have a new MCP. And I’m like, “Sure.” But-

[00:45:37] Nathan: Yeah, I mean, you’ve done a-

[00:45:38] Gannon: It’s not what moves- … a Core MCP video … it’s not what moves the needle for the business, right? Yeah. It’s attracting the wrong people. Um, and then Tom made a post about it. He’s like, “My business, my, my content right now has never been worse, performing worse.”

[00:45:50] He’s got like 460,000 followers or something, and he gets, like, you know, a good chunk of, like, maybe like 10K views a video. But compared to his old stuff, he’s just not living up to, like, the content that he was posting. Right. But he’s like, “My business has never been doing better.” And I’m like- Mm … we are infatuated with the views and the likes on a post and the follower count.

[00:46:12] Nathan: Mm.

[00:46:12] Gannon: And I know people who have hundreds of thousands of followers who make no money. So we- And I

[00:46:17] Nathan: don’t wanna be like that … we have this idea, right, that, uh, views… Now I’m like, how do you spell views? Right? V-I-E-W? Yeah, V-I-E. Did I just get that wrong? Views equals, uh, revenue.

[00:46:30] Gannon: Yeah.

[00:46:31] Nathan: Revenue. I can’t spell anymore.

[00:46:34] And so what you’re saying, like, what you’re noticing over and over again is,

[00:46:37] Gannon: like- It’s not even close …

[00:46:38] Nathan: it’s not.

[00:46:38] Gannon: Not even close.

[00:46:39] Nathan: And so we, you know, we see people where views are way up and revenue is down. Yeah. And we see the inverse, where views are way down and revenue is way up.

[00:46:46] Gannon: I feel like, you know, for most people, when they have high views and they go broad- Mm-hmm

[00:46:50] that’s when the brand deals start getting big.

[00:46:53] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:46:53] Gannon: And I think they feel like they maybe deserve bigger brand deals because they have a bigger audience.

[00:46:58] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:46:58] Gannon: You’ve talked to Justin. That’s just not the case. Like, that’s- Right … not how this works.

[00:47:02] Nathan: What can you deliver for the brand?

[00:47:03] Gannon: Yeah, exactly.

[00:47:04] Nathan: Or you might get the first one, but if the-

[00:47:06] Gannon: Yeah

[00:47:06] Nathan: the follow-ups.

[00:47:07] Gannon: But, like, for, for me, it’s like I’m willing to go deeper- Mm … with an audience than I am to go, like, cast a wide net and just see who out of these people, you know, is potentially a good fit, especially when we charge so much money for our setups.

[00:47:22] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:47:22] Gannon: It’s like the person, like somebody wanting to learn how to set up a Claude skill is not gonna spend 10 grand with me to build their ManyChat- Right

[00:47:30] automations, right? But somebody who is like, “Oh, there’s a new ManyChat pricing update,” and this person knows what they’re talking about, or they did this for this other creator-

[00:47:38] Nathan: Mm-hmm …

[00:47:39] Gannon: and that video might have 8,000 views, but it’s made me, like, 30 grand. Right. Right? So it’s like there’s a trade-off here, and I think everybody’s chasing views, and they think by chasing views it leads to revenue, and it’s, it’s never the case.

[00:47:55] So what’s, what leads to revenue? Is it

[00:47:57] Nathan: relevance? Like, what is the thing that has the most direct tie to revenue? I

[00:48:00] Gannon: think it’s just, like, how deep you go on a topic and how you share, how you think about solving problems. Like, if you can prove that you have solved a problem that somebody has, and you tell them exactly how you did it- I’d say at least in the service-based business, like those people don’t wanna pay to learn.

[00:48:18] They wanna pay for somebody to do it for them. So that’s what works for us. Like we… I’ll make a video about like, this is what I would do if I were this person who’s running- Yeah … Money Chat, and then that video might like, it might you know, you see 180,000 views, 500,000 views, five million views on the video.

[00:48:34] Like, oh, those videos probably crush. He’s probably living lavish right now. I’m like, I made no money from those. Right. And then there’s the video with 3,000 views where it’s like, you know, that paid for my wedding. Mm. So it’s like, you know, I’m trying to go deeper, share how I solve problems, and show up in front of the right audience.

[00:48:51] And then hopefully, when typically what happens is like that person will message me or interact with the post. Mm. Or somebody like that person will, will interact with the post.

[00:48:59] Nathan: Okay, so this is the example of like being very, very upfront

[00:49:03] Gannon: about what you offer, the value you provide.

[00:49:05] Nathan: I feel like a lot of creators are like, they don’t wanna be salesy- They’re so

[00:49:08] Gannon: secretive

[00:49:09] Nathan: to a fault

[00:49:09] and so they’re like, “And so I’m gonna hide the value that I provide to the world,” and all this.

[00:49:12] Gannon: The… I, I like that you bring this up because like what, what’s happening here, it’s like, it’s all in private. Mm. Like Samir calls this like your private marketing world for your audience. Mm. So like what Colin and Samir do with like creator support, everything happens privately.

[00:49:26] So you don’t know that they actually sell anything until you see it in a creator support video, or you go through a lead magnet and you go like- Mm … oh wow, there’s like so many different things that I can do here. But they’re never like, “Hey, you should buy, you know, this, this $799 brand deal blueprint.”

[00:49:41] Nathan: Right.

[00:49:42] Gannon: Because it’s just like, you know, they, I- they don’t wanna come off as salesy, but I actually think it’s smart because nobody’s just gonna buy that from like, you know. Right. Maybe they have pull, so like they probably will get people to buy

[00:49:51] Nathan: it. That, as a random aside- … uh, I met up with Samir when I was in Dubai.

[00:49:56] Gannon: Yeah.

[00:49:56] Nathan: We were talking about him switching over to Kit and all that, and he’s like, “Yeah, like I’d love to do that.” Uh, which is awesome. And then he’s like, “Let me connect with the team to

[00:50:03] Gannon: make that happen.” He connects the team and it’s you. It’s just me. I’m the team. And I was like, oh, they have a- No, I get it

[00:50:07] they have an awesome team. Like Cheyenne, um, who runs a lot of the like, basically the full funnel. Yeah. Like she’s brilliant, she’s awesome. Um, I take very little credit for like what they do. Yeah, all the

[00:50:17] Nathan: email stuff.

[00:50:17] Gannon: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:50:18] Nathan: Uh, but it’s fun to see, like you, you’re behind the scenes for a lot of these creators.

[00:50:21] Gannon: Yeah.

[00:50:22] Nathan: And so what you’re doing is you’re putting out a video where you’re saying, here is how I would break it down. Like, I studied this in detail, right? Yeah. We’ve got the stakes, we’ve got… But here’s what I noticed there to do better. I’m watching that video, and then either I’m like, oh, I’m like a Colin and Samir or someone else, or I am them.

[00:50:43] Yeah. And so that results directly in clients, is that right? Yeah. They’ve been a client since I posted that video. The video has like 7,000

[00:50:50] Gannon: views. It’s crazy.

[00:50:51] Nathan: That’s a lot of revenue on a… Like your revenue per view ratio on that- I mean … is probably very good.

[00:50:57] Gannon: It’s more than a dollar a view. Like by a large sum.

[00:51:00] Yeah, it’s probably like $3 a view.

[00:51:02] Nathan: Yeah. And so you

[00:51:03] Gannon: think… Yeah. So like- I mean, for me, like, uh, I don’t know if this is, like, helpful for people, but, like, when I’m up in front of a whiteboard just, like, by myself breaking these things down, just like my alter ego. It’s like I turn into a different person, like, from when I’m outside.

[00:51:19] And I can’t do it in front of anybody else. Like, even- Mm-hmm … my fiance, I’m like, “If you’re gonna be home when I’m recording a video, you need to be outside on the balcony listening to your book, ’cause I don’t want you to hear this.” Um, but the thing about those videos, it’s like it all starts the same way.

[00:51:33] Like, I started the Alex Hormozi video with, like, you know, “Alex Hormozi just texted me,” and it’s a automated message from, like, his book launch.

[00:51:40] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:51:41] Gannon: But I realized he has three million followers and doesn’t use ManyChat, therefore, I’m gonna spend the next 96 hours of my life building him a strategy.

[00:51:49] Right. And that’s it. It’s like Colin and Samir are some of the biggest creators in the creator economy, but they’re not running ManyChat. Here’s what I would do if I were- Mm … running their ManyChat automations. And then I just break down, like, what products they sell, how they sell it, and then, like, how ManyChat plugs into it, and those videos do really well.

[00:52:04] One of them got like 800,000 views.

[00:52:07] Nathan: So I mean, that’s the thing, right? We’re, we’re talking about these videos have a very small number of views and result in a lot of revenue for your agency. Yeah. But then also some of them, they do a ton of views and get you a bunch of followers as well.

[00:52:17] Gannon: It’s, it’s … Like, the, the amount of, like, the people who I’ve, like, met on calls from just videos- Yeah

[00:52:22] that I’ve posted, like Nir, who wrote Beyond Be- Belief.

[00:52:25] Nathan: Yeah. He’s a guest on the

[00:52:26] Gannon: podcast. He saw me f- from, like, the video that I did for this woman, Emily On The Brain. He’s like, “You know, I, I, I’m releasing this book and I’m … it’s not woo woo. Like, I feel like you can help me, you know, with this wait list and, like, promote the book launch.”

[00:52:37] I’m like, “I’ve been reading your content for years.” Like, why am I on a call with you right now? Yeah. This is so weird. Um, who else? Like, uh, Nick DiGiovanni’s- Oh, yeah … DiGiovanni’s team. Um- Yeah,

[00:52:48] Nathan: Nick’s a, a Kit customer as well. I’m just

[00:52:50] Gannon: like, “Dude, like, what is happening?” I’m just, like, posting these videos, like, three minutes of me talking in front of a whiteboard, and it’s just like-

[00:52:55] Nathan: As a quick aside, I feel like Kit has gotten a lot of very impressive customers over the years.

[00:53:00] My kids are like, “Yeah, whatever. Whatever.” Wait, you have Chef Nick as a customer? And that’s the one- That’s so funny … that gets you street cred. Yeah, he’s doing the FIFA World Cup stuff right now. It’s awesome. Oh, yeah. This is incredible. I’m gonna change a bunch of things about what I’m doing. And I love seeing all the behind the scenes and everything else, but thank you for the master class.

[00:53:15] Yeah, of

[00:53:15] Gannon: course.

[00:53:16] Nathan: There’s one more thing I wanna ask you.

[00:53:17] Gannon: Sure.

[00:53:18] Nathan: But it’s probably a conversation we should sit, sit down for.

[00:53:20] Gannon: Sure. Sounds good.

[00:53:22] Nathan: You have completely transformed your life in the last 12 months, and I wanna know, first contrast, what was life like before? What is it like now?

[00:53:30] Gannon: And then let’s dive into it.

[00:53:31] Like, what did you do? Yeah, I mean, I’ve been, I’ve been full-time as a creator since January 2024. Okay. Um, and I, like, did the whole hustle thing where I’m like, if I can create and teach something, I’m gonna turn it into a product and just sell it and see who buys it. Mm-hmm. And, like, that did okay. Um, it got to a point where I was like, “I’m proposing to my girlfriend.

[00:53:52] We live with her mom. We’ve been here for seven years. I am full-time working for myself. She’s a nurse. At some point, we gotta get the ball rolling you know, and move out and figure out how we’re gonna start our lives.” Um, and that required me to, like, really think seriously about how this is not just like every month we start from zero.

[00:54:11] How do we create, like, a recurring revenue stream? Yeah. Um, and I had this idea of creating, like, an Instagram, like, community/coaching membership.

[00:54:23] Nathan: It’s a pretty typical creator

[00:54:24] Gannon: product. Of course. Of course. So I, I text my friend, uh, Nana, um, who is hosting an event in New York. This is- August of last year, and her husband is, um, on Instagram.

[00:54:41] His name’s, uh, Mark Brazil. He, uh, he has the Open Residency podcast. Okay. And he ha- he started a company. Like, you know, um, Gary V invested in it, so I’m like, super smart business guy. I’m like, “I need to ask this guy questions of, like, what I should do.” So I text Nana. I’m like, “Hey, I see you’re hosting this event, and Mark is going.

[00:54:58] Can I go to the event?” And she’s like, “Well, it’s a, uh, it’s a female only event.” So I’m like, “I can’t go?” And she’s like, “No, I’d love to have you here so, like, you can ask questions to Mark at the round table.” And I’m like, “Perfect.” I get to finally meet Mark after knowing you for years, and I’m like, I’m gonna just put together this idea of, like, what I have.

[00:55:16] So I’m like, “Mark, here’s the context. I am just engaged. I need to figure out how to make recurring revenue. Here’s 14 paragraphs of ideas.” And I went last at the round table. I didn’t make it four sentences in, and I mentioned, like, “I wanna start this Instagram membership. I know how I’m gonna price it. I know how I’m gonna, you know, where to host it.”

[00:55:37] And he’s like, “You’re an idiot.” Like, “You’re so dumb.” I’m like, “What do you mean? Like, I thought this was a good idea.” So the context of that is that f- five or six months prior to that, I had a conversation with Nana, Friday night, on Zoom, two hours. You know, and when your wife is on Zoom with somebody for two hours on a Friday night, of course you’re gonna know what’s going on.

[00:55:59] So he’s, he had, he knew what I built for, for Nana. So she was running automations, um, on ManyChat and wanted to grow her kit newsletter. So we built out this, like, spider web of automations, and it crushed.

[00:56:12] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:56:12] Gannon: And he obviously knew that because he’s like, “Why are you talking to this guy on Zoom on a Friday night?”

[00:56:17] Nana, yeah. Um, and he’s like, “You know, you, you should just do that.” And I had no idea what that meant, ’cause I, I had never charged anybody for that.

[00:56:25] Nathan: Mm.

[00:56:26] Gannon: And I didn’t know how to make, like, automations in ManyChat, like, quote-unquote, “sexy”. It’s like up to that point, I had been, like, storytelling, and the videos were crushed, and I was doing all right with brand deals.

[00:56:35] I had grown my account up to that point to, like, 100 and, like, 20,000 followers, and I’m like, “There has to be somewhere I can, like, make this work.” Mm. Like, I don’t know if I’m gonna talk about ManyChat. And I left that event, and I was like, “Well, I guess I’m gonna be at my mother-in-law’s house for the next seven years.”

[00:56:52] And, uh, this idea popped in my head, and I’m like, “Wait a second. What if I just, you know, talked about what I would do if I ran somebody’s ManyChat?” Like, s- uh, this is what I did for Nana for two hours- Mm … on Zoom, but I’m like, “I have to condense this for three minutes, to, to three minutes.” And my fiance is at a My Chemical Romance concert at MetLife Stadium.

[00:57:12] I’m driving home on the New Jersey Turnpike at 11:30 at night, and I text her. I’m like, “I have this idea for a video. I’m not going to sleep until the video’s on Instagram.” I get home at 12:00- The video is Alex Hormozi texts me, and-

[00:57:27] Nathan: Which is a great hook. It’s a great hook. And

[00:57:29] Gannon: then it’s an even better

[00:57:29] Nathan: pa- ‘Cause it has credibility to it, and then it has the but that you were talking about.

[00:57:34] Yeah. Where it’s me like, “But he didn’t.” Yeah. Right? And so you’re like, “Wait, who’s it… You’re cool enough. You came across my feed. You’re cool enough that Alex Hormozi is texting you.” Yeah. “Oh, he’s not texting me.” You know? I’m like-

[00:57:45] Gannon: But you wanna stick around to be like, “What is this guy talking about?” Yeah. Oh, 100%.

[00:57:48] Why is he in front of a giant whiteboard, the digital whiteboard, talking about, like, this funnel? Um, so that video was three minutes on the dot, and it was, like, five before I cut it. Yeah. And I’m like, “What do I cut to get this out to three minutes?” And, uh, it was 12:30 when I posted it, so I didn’t do any edits besides just, like, throwing captions on and making it-

[00:58:05] Nathan: Okay,

[00:58:05] Gannon: wow.

[00:58:06] But it’s also very hard to put a horizontal screen in a vertical layout. Yeah. Um, and I posted that video at 12:30. My fiancée got home, and, uh, I actually beat her to bed, uh, which is good, ’cause that never happens when I’m recording videos. You did this video pretty, pretty quickly. Yeah, it was very quick.

[00:58:20] And I f- I woke up the next morning, the video had 34,000 views. And I was like, “This is… Like, maybe Mark was right. Maybe I am an idiot.” Yeah. “Maybe I should just continue talking about this.” And then I posted a, a video for Ali Abdaal that did 35, 36,000 views. I did, uh, Caleb Browston- Mm-hmm … who was on Alex Hormozi’s team.

[00:58:42] That video did, like, 160,000 views. I did Emma on the Brain. That got, like, s- 800,000 views. Um, I did Colin and Samir. That did, like, 8,000 views, but they commented on the post. Yeah. And I was like, “All right. Wait, wait, wait. Something, something’s going on here.” And- I realized that, you know, the, the way that I, I kind of talk about this is, like, the, the first question that I was asked when I applied for my first big boy job at this digital marketing company was, like, the everyday engineer question.

[00:59:10] Like, how many ping pong balls are, can fit in a bus? How many golf balls are there in Florida? Mm-hmm. And I’m like, “I actually … Why are you asking me this question?” Right. I was like, “Why? What do you mean?” I was fortunate enough to have somebody who worked at the company ask me that question, um, as a test interview.

[00:59:25] And I was like… She, she asked me how many slices of pizza are consumed in the US every year, and I’m like, “What do you mean?” Like, I’m, I don’t know. And what were they trying to get at? I’m just a boy. I don’t know, actually. Yeah. Um, but I got to an answer, like, in 30 seconds, and-

[00:59:39] Nathan: They just wanted to see how you think.

[00:59:41] Gannon: They wanted to see how you think, right? Um, but I actually think, like, it’s, it’s a little bit deeper than that. It’s like, how, for what I do now, right? Like, the, the answer to that question is there’s no right or wrong answer. Unless it’s like the ping pong, you could do math to get to that answer. But, like, for how many slices of pizza are you…

[00:59:57] Like, nobody knows. So why are we asking these questions? And I realized that, you know, it’s, it’s, th- those companies wanna see how you think, but if you take it a step further, it’s they wanna see how willing you are to be wrong in public.

[01:00:12] Nathan: Oh, okay.

[01:00:12] Gannon: Because there’s no right answer to that question, and I realized that’s what I was doing with the videos that I was making.

[01:00:18] Nathan: Mm.

[01:00:19] Gannon: I was like, oh, people can see how I think. There’s no right or wrong answer. You can get to the answer a million different ways, but- People wanna learn more about your experience and, like, how you think about solving these problems, and watch you do it live, and show people how, like, you know, I guess, courageous you are to actually be willing to be wrong in public.

[01:00:40] And the more I did that, the more I realized, like, this is why people get hired for big jobs. They arrive at wrong answers very quickly, or they’re not r- they’re not scared to show that they- Right … could potentially be wrong. And when you do videos like that, there’s a good chance you’re gonna be wrong sometimes.

[01:00:59] Like, you don’t have the full context of somebody’s business, but you can put it in a sequence that makes sense for other people watching. And in the event that you’re right for the person you made the video about- The path is huge … they’re, they’re a client. Yeah. Like, they’re a client. So, like, there’s very little downside.

[01:01:15] But what’s changed my life significantly in the past 12 months is just doing that over and over again, like answering questions that have no right answer, and just showing people how I think about solving problems- Mm-hmm … but doing it publicly. And it’s kind of like, you know, when you, when you see something that you want, or you have this thing, like for you, it might be, like, a new plane, right?

[01:01:37] Like, you have this idea for a new plane that you want, and you’re like, you might go to an airport, and you’re looking out for, like, that plane model that you want. It’s like, you start seeing it everywhere. It’s like- Mm-hmm … I haven’t seen this. Like, why am I now seeing it everywhere? It’s because you started doing it yourself, or you started thinking about it.

[01:01:50] And as I started posting more and more of those videos, I saw other people doing it. When I tell people this story, they’re like, “Of course, you have 192,000 followers. Like, of course- Right … it works for you,” right? And I’m like, “Mark called me an idiot. I’m about to call you an idiot.” “Because I can give you five people right now who have less than 10,000 followers who are doing unbelievable things- Mm

[01:02:10] because they did the same thing.” So- ‘

[01:02:12] Nathan: Cause they’re willing to be wrong in public …

[01:02:13] Gannon: willing to be wrong in public. Yes, like this, this one, um, woman, uh, Ceci, she made a A carousel of what she would do for if sh- if chess.com hired her for a merch

[01:02:29] Nathan: line That’s a, that’s not getting the attention of a random creator who’s

[01:02:31] Gannon: definitely

[01:02:31] Nathan: on Instagram.

[01:02:32] No. That’s like a, a big brand.

[01:02:34] Gannon: Post-it Notes commented, Lego commented, chess.com commented. She had less than 10,000 followers, and I, I’m like, “Oh, this is amazing.” I, I followed her, I DM’d her, and I was like, “Can I put this into Keynote?” Mm-hmm. ‘Cause I saw them comment. She’s like, “Yeah, of course.” And then a few weeks later she messages me.

[01:02:51] She’s like, “By the way, I wanted to follow up. I’m doing the thing with chess.com.” I’m like, “Really?” ‘Cause they said, “Yes,

[01:02:56] Nathan: please. We’ll take

[01:02:57] Gannon: what-” Yeah. “We’ll take that.” And then I had somebody, um, I was teaching a Many, ManyChat bootcamp maybe eight months ago, and I was at the beginning stages of, like, launching this agency, and I made, like, a, an aside comment to my g- my students, and I was like, “I hate running an agency.

[01:03:15] Like, I just hate doing this work, and also trying to manage this side of my life- Mm-hmm … and also trying to move out, and just getting engaged, and, like, trying to manage all this.” And one of the students who was, like, probably weeks five of six, who was, like, far ahead in, in his homework- Yeah … absolutely crushing it, he’s like, “Hey, you made this comment three weeks ago.

[01:03:33] I spent the last three weeks trying to put together what I would do if I ran this agency for you.” He’s been a partner at the company ever since he posted the video. ‘

[01:03:41] Nathan: Cause he steps up and says- Right?

[01:03:42] Gannon: Yeah. Yeah. He’s like, you know, some of the things I, you know, I might not necessarily agree with in his proposal, but he was- The demographics

[01:03:49] willing to do that, you know, publicly or not. Like, he was willing to be wrong.

[01:03:55] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[01:03:56] Gannon: So, and those people like, you know, f- the types of people who think they’re gonna be able to, like, change their life by doing this are the ones who just secretly DM you telling you that they can solve your problems, but they never do.

[01:04:09] Right. Like, it just goes to spam. So if there’s one thing I encourage anybody to do is just be willing to put yourself out there. It’s how I ended up on your plane.

[01:04:20] Nathan: Right.

[01:04:20] Gannon: Right?

[01:04:21] Nathan: I mean, who posts bucket list

[01:04:24] Gannon: things to go fly a plane? Yeah, it’s just like, it’s very strange. And that’ll take you to places where you, like, never would have imagined.

[01:04:30] Mm-hmm. Um, it’s true for me, and it’s, it’s true for people who don’t have… You know, I have a small following compared to like everybody else. Like, you can spend all day comparing yourself to other people, but it’s not because I have 192,000 followers, it’s because I just went out and did the thing. Mm-hmm.

[01:04:46] And most people don’t. And, you know, you compare my life to where it was 12 months ago, it’s, uh, it’s very different.

[01:04:52] Nathan: Yeah.

[01:04:53] Gannon: So yeah.

[01:04:54] Nathan: That’s amazing. What a note to end on.

[01:04:55] Gannon: That’s right. Thank you for sharing your story. Thank

[01:04:57] Nathan: you for

[01:04:57] Gannon: teaching the- Of course …

[01:04:58] Nathan: the masterclass. Uh, if people wanna go follow you on the internet, where should they

[01:05:02] Gannon: go?

[01:05:02] Yeah, it’s my first name.last name, gannon.meier on Instagram. It’s my first name, last name, no period on YouTube. And then LinkedIn, uh, you probably don’t know many Gannons, so just search my name- … and you’ll find me somewhere. It’s just a black and white photo, so. I like it. Thank you so much for coming on. I appreciate it, man.

[01:05:18] Thank you.

[01:05:19] Nathan: If you enjoyed this episode, go to YouTube and search The Nathan Barry Show, then hit subscribe and make sure to like the video and drop a comment. I’d love to hear what some of your favorite parts of the video were, and also, just who else you think we should have on the show. Thank you so much for

[01:05:34] listening.

[00:00:00] Steve: Overnight, the business exploded. All of a sudden, I found myself in charge of a team of 40 to 45 people. And then you fired yourself. Yeah.

[00:00:08] Nathan: Steve Kamb built Nerd Fitness into a 40-person company, and spent five years chasing the wrong goal with the wrong metrics.

[00:00:14] Steve: You can keep playing this position over here that you’re not actually good at, or you can accept reality.

[00:00:20] And there’s actually something powerful, too, about saying like, “”. Oh, I love that.

[00:00:25] Nathan: He fired himself twice, both times on purpose, and what he found on the other side was a return to writing, a better business, and a book called How to Try Again.

[00:00:33] Steve: You wake up every day, “I’m already behind. I have more to do.”

[00:00:37] Instead of trying to get better at juggling chainsaws, maybe it’s okay that you stop juggling chainsaws. Yeah.

[00:00:42] Nathan: If you’ve ever built something successful and wondered why it still doesn’t feel right, this one’s for you.

[00:00:47] Steve: There’s a dream that people want to sell you. When you sign on to Instagram, you see the best version of everybody else, and the story that you’re seeing is not real.

[00:00:54] Nathan: In this episode, Steve walks through a framework for recognizing when you’re optimizing for the wrong thing, and how to make the move once you know.

[00:01:01] Steve: This is not, like, a top secret protocol, but it’s something you will remember. That

[00:01:05] Nathan: is

[00:01:05] Steve: so powerful

[00:01:10] Nathan: Steve, I’ve known you for a very long time, and I’ve watched you build Nerd Fitness to hundreds of thousands of subscribers, millions in revenue, and then you

[00:01:19] Steve: fired yourself. Yeah. What?

[00:01:22] Nathan: Uh- What happened there?

[00:01:24] Steve: Yeah. Uh, so it’s been 17 years-

[00:01:27] Nathan: Yeah …

[00:01:28] Steve: since I made Nerd Fitness my, my thing. I actually demoted myself once- Okay

[00:01:33] and then I fired myself. Oh, okay. So it was two steps.

[00:01:36] Nathan: Yeah. Performance improvement plan. And then didn’t, didn’t meet it, and you

[00:01:39] Steve: were out. Yeah, I had to talk to myself. It got super awkward.

[00:01:42] Nathan: Full HR.

[00:01:43] Steve: It was a whole thing.

[00:01:44] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:01:44] Steve: It was a whole thing. Um, no, essentially what happened was I started Nerd Fitness as a side hobby.

[00:01:50] Mm-hmm. I love… Well, I didn’t realize it at the time, but I love writing.

[00:01:55] Nathan: Right.

[00:01:55] Steve: I didn’t know what to do, but I stumbled across this guy. I had this idea for helping nerds get fit. I Googled nerd and fitness. Nothing popped up.

[00:02:05] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:02:06] Steve: So I bought nerdfitness.com, and- Great

[00:02:08] Nathan: domain …

[00:02:09] Steve: had no idea how I was gonna make money with it or anything, but I stumbled across a guy named Chris Guillebeau-

[00:02:13] Nathan: Yep

[00:02:13] Steve: who was making money on the internet as a writer. Okay, cool. I’ll start writing. And just kinda put my head down. I wrote two articles a week every week. Is that because Chris wrote two articles a week? Every Monday and Thursday, 100%. So shout out to Chris G. Yep. Um, and I wrote those essays and accidentally, you know, built, built a following, and then started to build a business and hired employees and things kept growing, and then I needed to hire more people, and then things grew.

[00:02:45] And then, uh, I kept going, and then during the pandemic, everything shut down.

[00:02:52] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:02:53] Steve: People couldn’t go to gyms, and Nerd Fitness happened to be the number one search term for online coaching on Google. Oh, wow. So overnight, the business, like, exploded because nobody could go to a gym, and they wanted- Right

[00:03:06] a trainer. So all of a sudden, I found myself in charge of 40, 45, a team of 40 to 45 people. Um, and I wasn’t writing anymore. I was… I started to avoid work-

[00:03:20] Nathan: Mm-hmm …

[00:03:21] Steve: because I realized I was sitting in the wrong seat in my own company. And, like, I kinda sucked the fun out of why I started doing it in the first place- Mm-hmm

[00:03:31] which was to write fun essays about helping people So I said, “Okay, there’s somebody who’s second in line, and hey, I want you to take over and run this business. I’m gonna demote myself to chief marketing officer. That sounds like a semi-important title- Right … and people will like it, and that seems reasonable for my business.”

[00:03:54] And I think I made it about a month as the chief marketing officer of Nerd Fitness and realized like I’m terrible at this too. I’m still managing people. I’m still spending all of my time dealing with meetings, and, um, spreadsheets, and optimization, and A/B split testing, and, uh, rewriting essays for search engine optimization, all of this stuff.

[00:04:14] And I realized that I was, again, sitting in the wrong seat in my own business. I wasn’t doing any of the stuff that I liked. So I made the essentially extreme decision to fire myself from Nerd Fitness. I said, “You’re now in charge. I’m available on Mondays, but for my mental health and my life, I have to go do the thing that I’m actually really good at, which is writing.”

[00:04:40] And that led me down the path to, you know, hopefully write another book.

[00:04:45] Nathan: Yeah. Wow. So I mean, a lot happened in that, and I feel like there’s all these founders who are very attached to founder and CEO, and like those go hand-in-hand. Sure. But they don’t have to. And so there’s a lot of these people that I really respect, like Dharmesh Shah, who’s the founder and CTO of HubSpot, and I’ve known him for, I don’t know, 12, 13 years, and he has no direct reports at HubSpot, right?

[00:05:10] He’s the largest shareholder, uh, ’cause he invested money when it started, all the stuff, right? The largest individual shareholder of HubSpot. No direct reports, does not have any sh- you know, he messes around with code, the future of the company, AI, agents, and all that, right? He fired himself from basically the whole executive team.

[00:05:27] He’s like, “I live over here.” And it- he’s like, “Look, I’m, I’m way happier doing that.” And so I love that you did the same thing, and it worked out. Y-

[00:05:37] Steve: yes, but it took me five years-

[00:05:39] Nathan: Yeah …

[00:05:39] Steve: of sitting in the wrong seat-

[00:05:40] Nathan: Right …

[00:05:41] Steve: before I, I finally accepted it. Mm-hmm. I remember I just moved to New York City and sat down with our mutual friend, Ramit Sethi- Mm-hmm

[00:05:48] and said, “I’m gonna grow, I’m gonna grow this business.” And he essentially said, “All right. Get, get ready to eat shit for about three years- Mm-hmm … and maybe you’ll come out the other side.” So it’s, it’s-

[00:05:59] Nathan: When I feel like at, at that time, everybody was scaling- Oh, yeah … their content businesses. So if we go to these different phases, I wanna go back to the beginning-

[00:06:06] Steve: Sure

[00:06:06] Nathan: when we met, uh, in a little bit, but the stage you’re talking about of living in New York City, it’s like Ramit had a huge team. Derek Halpern was scaling up. You know, so many people were, like, reaching the pinnacle. You know, before it was like, oh, you could make 50 or grand a year or something writing, and that’s incredible.

[00:06:22] It’s like, now people are making millions or tens of millions-

[00:06:25] Steve: Yep …

[00:06:26] Nathan: off of these, uh, basically media companies. And so that’s the world that you surrounded yourself with, right?

[00:06:33] Steve: Yeah, and I think y- we all know this, but our environments shape- Mm-hmm … our decisions and- I think for me, moving to New York, like, as a 29-year-old- Yeah

[00:06:43] everybody has that idea of, “I’m gonna put my dent in the universe.”

[00:06:47] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:06:47] Steve: And I didn’t probably also listen to myself. I also didn’t have the skill set, um, probably like the CEO of HubSpot who says, like, “I want no direct reports,” and also, “I’m… I can build the right team.”

[00:06:59] Nathan: Right.

[00:06:59] Steve: Or the, uh, the… And the right environment.

[00:07:01] There’s certainly luck involved, and I’ll s- I’ll get into, you know, certainly some challenges that we faced as a business- Mm-hmm … between SEO, ChatGPT, Google changing algorithms and adding more blue links, and all of that fun stuff- Right … um, came after the decision for me to step back and then away.

[00:07:19] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:07:20] Steve: But yeah, it’s really alluring to say more, more, more, bigger.

[00:07:24] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:07:24] Steve: Because that’s what people do. And especially in New York City, that’s, that’s kind of what everybody does. Right. How can you not do that? You need to be aspirational.

[00:07:34] Nathan: Where’s your ambition?

[00:07:35] Steve: Where’s your ambition? Right. And, um, you think, like, if you’re not getting bigger, then you’re falling further behind.

[00:07:41] Mm-hmm. If you’re

[00:07:41] Nathan: not growing, you’re shrinking.

[00:07:42] Steve: If you’re not growing, you’re shrinking. Exactly. And, um, you know, there’s actu- like, there’s a topic I talk about in my book, but everybody thinks, like, if you’re not making progress, then you’re falling further behind. Mm-hmm. And, like, the reality is, like, the opposite of progress isn’t stagnation or staying the same.

[00:07:57] The opposite is regress and making things worse. So, like, in that instance, like, a cool small business that is profitable and healthy is, like, an unbelievable place to be, and it doesn’t have to always be bigger, bigger, bigger- Right … because that can introduce some challenges that you might not be ready for, that you’re unable to handle, or society or some aspect of the internet changes, and all of a sudden you catch yourself flat-footed because you have this much bigger ship that you have to turn around.

[00:08:25] Nathan: So I wanna ask about the identity side of it, because I feel like if I were to step back, like, I’ve tied up so much identity in the company that I’ve built, team, like, all of those things, that even if I wanted to fire myself from it, then I’d be like, “Oh, I’d be so tied up in it.” And I talk to people who have sold their companies, and they’re just like, so many of them spend years where they’re, like, list- listless or unhappy in some way because they’re like, “Oh, that was everything.

[00:08:48] I miss having the team, the platform.”

[00:08:50] Steve: Mm-hmm.

[00:08:51] Nathan: You know, that w- like, the founder of that, like, that’s who I was.

[00:08:53] Steve: Yep.

[00:08:54] Nathan: Um, how did you navigate the identity side?

[00:08:57] Steve: Like I said, it took me five years to navigate it. Yeah. Because I, I love people. Mm-hmm. I mean, probably to a fault. Have cer- certainly have people-pleasing tendencies, and I like people to like me.

[00:09:07] But- I like you, Steve. Thanks, man. Really means a lot. Really needed that. I’m gonna tell my therapist about this next week. Yeah, exactly. Um, it took years. Mm-hmm. Because I told myself I had to be in the trenches, and I had to be a great leader, and I had to be involved. Right. So I was burning myself out sitting in the seat in my own company.

[00:09:26] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:09:27] Steve: Not only that, but, um- I think my identity had certainly been tied up in that idea of being bigger and having this team and hiring all these people But the reality was like, man, I’m a writer. I love writing.

[00:09:46] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:09:46] Steve: The most fun I had at Nerd Fitness was when it was me and, like, a few part-time people, and we were just building small things and, and working on it.

[00:09:55] So I had to accept that You can keep playing this position over here that you’re not actually good at, or you can accept reality, which is this is your skill set. This is what you actually love to do. And there’s actually something pretty powerful, too, about saying, like, “I am not the person for this role.

[00:10:16] Somebody else is better at it than me, and as a result, I can double down on my, my actual strengths, which will, in the long run, end up being better for both myself and for Nerd Fitness.”

[00:10:26] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:10:27] Steve: You have to, but you have to be willing to d- h- do the uncomfortable work of asking those questions. It’s probably therapy.

[00:10:34] It’s probably journaling. It’s all of the unfun stuff of sitting with your uncomfortable thoughts and saying, like, how do I… What act- what parts of this actually light me up? Yeah, so how did you get to the point where you realized that writing is what lights you up and that all these other aspects don’t?

[00:10:51] There’s no right answer here- Mm-hmm … for what people are doing. I, I think a lot of it comes out of really, really getting to know yourself. Um, I think about this, uh, everybody’s probably read, there’s this great Neal Stephenson essay, the… He’s a science fiction author. And he has this great essay that says Why I’m a Bad Correspondent.

[00:11:10] And he says, “I am unable to respond to emails and go give talks because, uh, I need four hours of uninterrupted time to write. If I have two blocks of two interrupted hours-” Mm-hmm … “it’s not nearly as good. For me, I need four hours.” So some people might be thinking, like, “Okay, I then need four hours to write to be the best writer.”

[00:11:30] Mm-hmm. Um, I talk about this, uh, in the book too, but there’s, uh, Ian Fleming, who wrote the James Bond novels. Yeah. Every winter, or January, would fly to Jamaica and go to his compound called Goldeneye- Oh, naturally … and he would type on a gold-plated typewriter every morning, and then go swim in the ocean, and then make a cocktail, and then edit his essays, and that’s how he wrote his books.

[00:11:54] Mm-hmm. Meanwhile, you have Agatha Christie, who wrote, I don’t know, something like 60-plus books- … and short stories, sold over a billion copies of her books worldwide. And in her autobiography, she talks about how her friends never knew when she wrote because she would step away- Mm … and write in 30-minute bits, um, 30-minute bursts, and retire to a secret room.

[00:12:15] She didn’t ever have a place to write.

[00:12:17] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:12:17] Steve: You know, she didn’t know where she was gonna be writing that day. All three of those strategies worked.

[00:12:22] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:12:22] Steve: But they worked for the right person. And for me, I think with my stuff, I started writing as a means to an end. I don’t know what this Nerd Fitness thing is.

[00:12:32] I’m gonna start writing and kind of figure it out. Hopefully, I can make a business out of it. But once I started writing and fell in love with the research process and, um, curios- you know, chasing my curiosity, all of a sudden, the writing became the point. And I just fell in love with it. And I came to realize that that is not- how I feel about these other aspects of the business.

[00:12:55] I tried them. They were fun little experiments. Some of them went on a little too long for me. But eventually I realized, like, hey man, this is the thing that you’re really good at that doesn’t, I don’t wanna say doesn’t feel like work, ’cause it’s really challenging to write- Yeah … and to write a book. But it’s so helpful when you can be honest with yourself and say, like, if I do the thing that I’m uniquely gifted at, it makes so many other parts of this a lot easier, and you actually enjoy it.

[00:13:21] And as a result, you know, I’m so enthusiastic. When I’m doing something I love, like, man, I will run through a brick wall to make it happen.

[00:13:28] Nathan: Uh-huh.

[00:13:29] Steve: But if I’m not excited about it, like, oh man, I’ll rearrange my bookshelf. I’ll do

[00:13:34] Nathan: anything- You’ll

[00:13:35] Steve: do anything … I’ll do anything other than those things. And after five years of hitting myself over the head with this reality, I finally accepted it.

[00:13:42] Nathan: So I think conventional wisdom is that, you know, you find what you’re good at, and then also what the company needs. And so whether there’s a gap there, if, if the company needs something, you either hire for it or you level up in those areas. Yep. And that’s something that I’ve seen you do in your life so much, right?

[00:13:57] Where, you know, you’re leveling up all throughout. You have a book about this. Uh, and in this case, you’re taking a different approach. Like, how do you know when it’s time to be like, “Oh, I don’t enjoy this ’cause I’m not doing it the right way, or I don’t have the skill, so let me level up in that area,” w- instead of saying, “Oh, let me just do the opposite,” and say, “I don’t wanna do that.”

[00:14:14] Steve: I think it’s really easy to see what other people are doing-

[00:14:18] Nathan: Mm-hmm … and assume

[00:14:19] Steve: that either you can do it or that it’s something that you must get good at.

[00:14:23] Nathan: Okay.

[00:14:26] Steve: And especially with all of us in small business, we all see the opportunities available to us, and we see the holes in our business or the holes in an industry where we can fill a, we can fill a need or, or serve a new set of customers.

[00:14:39] And it’s really easy to then spread yourself or move into that area and to do the next thing and to force yourself to put your head down and level up at that skill and then hire for it. I’ve tried that across all sorts of skills. In some ways, and sometimes it filled me up and it lit me up. Writing is, again, I keep coming back to this, but it’s the thing that, like, I want to get better at.

[00:15:03] Mm-hmm. And when I get better at that thing, everything else gets easier. And then in other areas, I would try to shore up all of my weaknesses so that I could be a better manager and a better leader, and I put all my time into those things. And essentially, I was really just kind of becoming less… a less crappy manager and a less crappy leader and a less good, you know, like, just slightly elevated- Yeah

[00:15:28] version of that, which wasn’t moving the needle, which wasn’t lighting me up, which kept me from doing the thing that I think I could, again, double down on and get better at, all because it’s so alluring to see the opportunity- Mm-hmm … and not have the, maybe the discipline or not being able to try it and then say, “Mm, this doesn’t feel right.

[00:15:50] It’s not for me,” or, “We’re gonna keep our focus on these things.” Right. I’m really like, “Oh, look at all these shiny objects. I have to do all of them.” Mm-hmm. “And then I’ll just figure it out along the way.” Eventually, you know, that, that kind of catches up to you.

[00:16:02] Nathan: Yeah, so this, this trade-off between doubling down on your strengths and what you truly love and shoring up your weaknesses.

[00:16:07] ‘Cause I think we all have things that we’ve started to do, did not enjoy them, decided we should anyway, and then it turns into something that you love. And it’s a- it’s such a hard thing of like what, what is worth pushing through and getting to the point where you’re like, “Oh, actually, the first two weeks in the gym were not enjoyable, but now that we’re eight weeks in- Yeah

[00:16:25] or that sort of thing, I’m like, I actually kind of miss it if I don’t go.”

[00:16:28] Steve: Yeah.

[00:16:28] Nathan: Versus like, “Oh, no, I shouldn’t be doing this.” Yeah, I, I think you really

[00:16:32] Steve: have to know yourself.

[00:16:33] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:16:33] Steve: Um, I’m a big fan of, you know, creating little, creating experiments and trying- Mm-hmm … thinking, having like a really curious mindset for I wonder if this will work for me.

[00:16:43] Mm-hmm. I wonder if this idea is something that I could get interested in. And it happens to us at Nerd Fitness all the time. It’s people that are like, “I’m trying to lose weight,” or, “I wanna get in shape for something,” and then they start exercising, and a few weeks later they start to look forward to the gym.

[00:17:01] Mm. And they kind of realize, “Oh, like I don’t know how it happened, but I actually look forward to doing my workouts now.” Right. It’s no longer about the end goal. Now it’s like, what am I capable of? And when I take that same principle and apply it back to me and my writing, it’s like, oh, the end goal might have been to build a business, but now it’s, oh, like a perfectly crafted sentence or the weird idea that my brain comes up with.

[00:17:32] Like, there’s some magic happening there that I can’t ignore. If I’m really honest with myself, if I am journaling, having conversations with friends that are really good at their respective things and realizing how much that lights them up, like accepting that for myself and saying like, “Dude, I, I don’t think the sign from the universe is any brighter than it can possibly be right now,” than like this is what you’re meant to be doing.

[00:17:58] Right. And if you double down on it, those weaknesses no longer have to be the thing that you’re focused on. Mm-hmm. This is actually the path forward and how it’s going to make every other part of this engine, your life, better because you’re doing the thing, you’re, you’re exponentially improving at the thing that, that uniquely, that you’re uniquely gifted at.

[00:18:17] Nathan: Yeah. That makes a lot of sense. Something that I think about watching everyone on the internet is r- right, we know we get to see the most polished versions of everyone else’s life and their business and their huge wins and the launch they just did and, and whatever else. It reminds me of probably my favorite, uh, Jimmy Fallon clip, which is Jimmy Fallon and Emma Stone doing a lip sync battle, and they go back and forth, and it’s competitive and all that, and then Emma Stone comes out with All I Do Is Win and just absolutely crushes it.

[00:18:44] It’s the best clip on the internet. But that’s, like watching everyone else’s life, you’re j- it’s, they’re just, all I do is win.

[00:18:50] Steve: Yep.

[00:18:50] Nathan: And you’re like- Well, I ha- I have had wins, but I don’t feel like all I do is win.

[00:18:57] Steve: Sure.

[00:18:57] Nathan: And so it’s really hard to compare in that, in that area. And when you s- in the book, How to Try Again, you dive in and you’re just like, “Here’s all the failures.

[00:19:08] Here’s, here’s when life, like, completely fell apart.”

[00:19:11] Steve: Yeah. It’s so alluring to, for… There’s a dream that people want to sell you. Mm. Right? When you sign on to Instagram or, you know, you open up which- whatever app is on your phone, that whichever social media platform of, of choice you like to-

[00:19:24] Nathan: Yeah …

[00:19:24] Steve: doom scroll through-

[00:19:26] you see the best version of everybody else- Mm … selling you the one thing that will solve all of your problems. And, uh, in the book, I talk about, I call, like, a doom loop, where it’s like, “Oh, I don’t feel good about myself. Oh, but this person is selling me the one thing. Clearly this is it. This will solve it.

[00:19:44] They have it all figured out. I’m a mess. They have it all figured out.” And then they try to do that thing, and they either give up because it wasn’t made for them, or they try it and they don’t get the same results because they’re in a different life situation. Right. They have kids, they have, um, they just went through a restructuring at work, they have an aging parent with dementia, like who…

[00:20:04] They’re doing all these other things and they’re beating themselves up that they can’t follow- Mm … this great protocol. They don’t feel like they’re winning all the time, and they’re beating themselves up. So I wanted to write this book, and started out by saying, like, “Hi, I’m Steve. Here’s all the things I failed at recently.”

[00:20:23] And the only reason I was able to write this book is ’cause of some of those failures. Um, and, like, we’ll get into it, the… You know, a- a- I realized early on, like I said, five years ago at this point, that I wasn’t the guy to be running-

[00:20:36] Nathan: Mm-hmm …

[00:20:36] Steve: my business, but I wanted to write. And I went to go, uh, work with my book agent and get to work on this next book.

[00:20:43] And meanwhile, while that happens, I get the, I get a book deal that I’m super excited about, and immediately felt imposter syndrome first, which was great. Like, “Oh, God, now I have to write a book. Oh, no.” Uh, that’s, that’s interesting how I’m feeling about the thing that I wanted to be doing. Okay, we’ll come back to that.

[00:21:02] And then I found out I had a skin cancer diagnosis on the top- Yeah … of my head that was, uh, they had to, like, scoop it out of my scalp and then kind of suture my head shut so I don’t have a bald spot. Yep. Um, that’s from having a buzz cut as a little kid growing up, uh- And then, um, Nerd Fitness, we ran into some, some headwinds that were- Right

[00:21:22] uh, pretty dramatic. Uh, like everybody knows, Google is not the Google that it used to be.

[00:21:30] Nathan: Right.

[00:21:30] Steve: And we went from, you know, getting a million and a half hits of free Google traffic a month. And all of a sudden, we were still maybe the number one search term for online coaching, but it was underneath 10 blue links-

[00:21:43] Nathan: Right

[00:21:43] Steve: paid.

[00:21:44] Nathan: All the sponsors.

[00:21:44] Steve: Paid, yep. And then ChatGPT, and LLMs, and Google Gemini.

[00:21:50] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:21:50] Steve: And w- we watched as 80% of our traffic-

[00:21:54] Nathan: Mm-hmm …

[00:21:54] Steve: went away. It’s like, oh, okay. Cool. The thing I have been building, um, is no longer… Like, that, that avenue is now changed, and we have to make some dramatic changes at Nerd Fitness.

[00:22:07] Meanwhile, all this is going down. I’m working on writing a book on what to do when life doesn’t go according to plan. And, um, I went through a heartbreaking but amicable divorce. Mm-hmm. Uh, all of this happening, like, at the same time while I’m writing a book about life not going according to plan, and what to do after a failure.

[00:22:27] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:22:29] Steve: It sucked. Mm-hmm. All of this sucked, and it all happened, like, pretty close together. And I had to rethink a lot, and it took a lot of courage to share these things- Oh, yeah … and a l- a lot of stuff ’cause I just… I’m, I’m me, and I’m as honest as I can possibly be, and I wanted people to know, like, “Hey, w- d- we don’t have it all figured out.”

[00:22:53] Nathan: Right. ”

[00:22:53] Steve: And the story that you’re seeing on Instagram is probably not real, and it might not work for you. That doesn’t mean that you’re broken. It means that it doesn’t work for you. Like, we need to find a different path that accepts all of the challenges that you’re facing, that doesn’t beat you up for struggling with what- whatev- whatever you’re struggling with, and honors this life that you’re trying to live in a world that is changing faster than anything.”

[00:23:21] Mm-hmm. And as soon as I was able to share these things with my audience, uh, which took months and months of working up the courage to share a lot of this stuff, um, the response was overwhelming positive. People shared their own stories because they now felt comfortable enough to say, like, “Oh, okay, cool.

[00:23:41] Steve’s not perfect. He’s not… Y- he’s somebody that I can relate to. I no longer feel as bad that I navigated this,” or, “I went- Mm-hmm … struggled with this other thing.” It’s been really helpful, or it’s been really encouraging to hear everybody kinda being like, “Hey, man. Like, cool. We’re all in this club together of kinda weirdos that are trying to navigate life that refuses to d- follow the plan that we want for it.”

[00:24:05] Nathan: Right.

[00:24:06] Steve: So

[00:24:06] Nathan: how did the… Well, like, what book did you sell to a publisher?

[00:24:09] Steve: Sure. And then how did that evolve into How to Try Again? Yeah. So the… Well, okay, the initial premise I sold, uh, I talked to my book agent on January 1st of 2020- three, I think Yeah Maybe 2022. Either way, um, I said, “Hey, I’ve been running Nerd Fitness for 15 years.

[00:24:29] What we do better than anybody else is we help people, like, after they’ve given up on a workout plan- Mm … or they’ve bailed on their New Year’s resolution, we help them, we help them restart.”

[00:24:40] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:24:41] Steve: Actually, the word I used was respawn, like a video game term. Video… Oh, yeah. And, uh, David, my book agent, was very polite in saying, “Mm, maybe we don’t use the word respawn.

[00:24:49] Maybe we pick something- … a little more, a little more approachable for

[00:24:53] Nathan: everybody.” Also, to be clear, David Bugay, your agent, is also Andy Weir’s agent from The Martian-

[00:24:58] Steve: Yes …

[00:24:58] Nathan: Project Hail Mary.

[00:24:59] Steve: Right. So imagine- … the guy representing, like, the nerdiest author on the planet telling me, “Mm, maybe this is- “Maybe it’s a little-”

[00:25:04] a little too

[00:25:04] Nathan: nerdy.” “You’ve gone too far, Steve.”

[00:25:08] Steve: Right. So tells me to reel it in. So I said, “Okay, fine. How about restart? This is what we do better than anybody.” Yeah. We’ve trained, we… You know, we’ve had 50,000 customers- Yeah … using the Nerd Fitness Academy, which is this course we had back in the day. 20,000 people have gone through Nerd Fitness coaching.

[00:25:22] Mm. So we know our audience, and we know how people work. We know exactly, like, three weeks in, life is gonna happen.

[00:25:31] Nathan: Right.

[00:25:31] Steve: They’re gonna beat themselves up, and they’re gonna want to give up, or they’re gonna give up on their first thing and say, “Fantastic. Welcome to the club. Let’s do things differently.”

[00:25:40] Mm-hmm. So I sold the book as Restart. I have an audience of nerds. I have this company that I’ve built.

[00:25:45] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:25:46] Steve: These are the tips and tactics that we’ve used to help 20,000 normal, busy, burned-out people who- Yeah … who feel really bad about themselves because they can’t follow the Instagram influencer. They don’t relate to the 4:00 AM protocol, ice bath- Mm

[00:26:03] whatever. They don’t like… You know, like, that’s not them. They have jobs and f- families and obligations and things. So that was the premise, and then I went through all of these things, and the book evolved from just like, “Hey, after you’ve given up on a resolution, here’s what to do next,” to, “Hey, if you have failed and you feel like a failure-” I want you to pick up this book.

[00:26:29] Mm. I’m… I wrote the hell out of it. Here’s how I’ve failed. Here’s some famous failures in history. Here’s a protocol that you can follow so that you don’t get caught in this loop in your brain of, “I’m a loser, I can’t follow through.” And we’re gonna get through this together, you and me, uh, you the reader, me the author.

[00:26:49] Mm-hmm. We’re gonna find a way to have some fun with it. We’re gonna stop beating ourselves up, and you’re gonna come out the other side with a better understanding so that when the next failure happens, it’s no longer life-altering. It’s no longer-

[00:27:02] Nathan: Right …

[00:27:03] Steve: uh, it’s no longer self-judg- you don’t have to judge yourself anymore.

[00:27:05] You can just say like, “Okay, that happened. We’re gonna, we’re gonna try again, but we’re gonna try again differently, and we’re gonna move through life with this new kinda life philosophy that honors the weird life that we have to live, the complete uncertainty that life is, and the things that make us who we are.”

[00:27:23] Nathan: Yeah. I feel like the first version of the book maybe that you sold, it has more of a you’re in the mud and I’m the guide kind of feel to it. Sure. And the book that I read is like, I am right in it with you side by side, and let me… You know, it’s just, it’s so much more raw and real, and it’s like, oh, okay, Steve’s been through sh- some shit.

[00:27:45] Yeah. I have too. All right, let’s try again.

[00:27:48] Steve: Yeah. And, and I wanted to, I wanted the stories in the book to, to reflect that too, right? Like, I share this really fun story about, um, Ken Burns, the amazing documentarian. Mm-hmm. You know, everybody knows the story. He talks about how he spent, you know, 10 years making, uh, the Civil War and, uh, however many years it was to be, to do these amazing documentaries.

[00:28:09] And he talks about how it takes, you know, 40 gallons of sap to make one gallon of maple syrup. Mm-hmm. And he has these y- ar- these amazing archives and, um, and hours of footage that he then condenses into, like, the two hours or the 10 hours of amazing… Like, the most amazing documentary you’ve ever seen.

[00:28:27] You know, never moved to New York City. He stayed in, I think he’s in Vermont or New Hampshire. He’s up in New England. And in the story… You know, I’m like, I’m loving this guy. He’s gotta have a great work-life balance, and he’s, he’s got his head screwed on straight, and all of these things. And I was listening to a podcast with him, and the host said something like, “Ken, you’ve had all these accomplishments.”

[00:28:48] How do you keep such a great work-life balance? And he said, “You’ll have to ask my two ex-wives about that.” And it was just, like, this amazing, honest moment- Mm-hmm … from a guy that was like, yeah, man, one, like, life and relationships are hard.

[00:29:03] Nathan: Right.

[00:29:03] Steve: Two, what you see or, like, the narrative you’ve already decided my life is- Mm-hmm

[00:29:08] isn’t the real picture. And also, like, there are some real consequences or things that come from being the best at something.

[00:29:15] Nathan: Right.

[00:29:16] Steve: Sometimes it’s okay to not want to be the best or be a top performer. Like, everything these days is everything must be top, elite, optimized. Mm-hmm. And in these instances, sometimes it’s totally okay that you’re not optimizing and doing all of the things or trying to be the best at something because there are some very real consequences that come with it.

[00:29:36] So for my book, I wanted to be honest about all this stuff.

[00:29:39] Nathan: Right.

[00:29:39] Steve: It takes a lot of work to write a book. It takes a lot of work to have six-pack abs. It takes a lot of work to build a business or run a marathon. Like, it’s totally okay if some of those things are not your thing. You just have to be able to say, like, “I don’t wanna do that.”

[00:29:54] What

[00:29:54] Nathan: were some other big failures that you put into the book of, like… or the fail- failures from history? ‘Cause there are some- Oh … you have some great ones in there where it’s just like, oh, man, I can’t believe that, one, was ever an idea, or two, you know, someone failed that much before actually- Sure

[00:30:07] finding the thing.

[00:30:07] Steve: Yeah. So there’s a, there’s a traveling museum called The Museum of Failure.

[00:30:11] Nathan: Okay.

[00:30:12] Steve: And I went to it in New York City, and it’s… I think it’s, uh, Dr. Samuel West, I believe. Um, it’s just some of the world’s, like, most greatest failures, flops, and, and frauds. Um, some of the things you’ll… that were in there, I think you’ll be…

[00:30:27] you’ll, you’ll remember. You know, like, a Microsoft Zune player was in there. Oh, yes. Yep. Remember the Zune MP3 player? Yep.

[00:30:32] Nathan: Oh, yeah. Yep. The iPod killer.

[00:30:33] Steve: iPod killer. Didn’t, didn’t, didn’t quite work out that way.

[00:30:37] Nathan: The iPod did get killed- … but by the iPhone- Yes … years later, not by the Zune.

[00:30:41] Steve: Right. And everybody talks about, like, oh, Apple cannibalized its own product.

[00:30:44] It’s like, yeah, but with, like, a more expensive, better product. So actually, it kind of worked out. Like, that was, like, baller move. Yeah. But Apple was also in the Museum of Failure. Mm. They had a, a video game console called the Pippin. I’ve ne- I… Before reading the book, I had never heard of this. I had never heard of it.

[00:31:00] I, I grew up as a gamer. Right. Like, that was my life. Um, and

[00:31:04] Nathan: I never- You have video game references for all, all through all of your writing.

[00:31:08] Steve: And I had- Never heard of it … never heard of the Pippin. Um, Nintendo had the Virtual Boy in there- Okay … which was this red, black and red headset that, like, strained kids’ eyes and was discontinued after a year.

[00:31:19] Um, I think my favorite was, uh, Hooters Air. I just think about this all the time

[00:31:27] Nathan: This is an airline.

[00:31:28] Steve: It’s an airline from the, the restaurant- … that sold chicken wings. Like, think of how many people had to say yes to, “Hey, like, we make chicken wings.”

[00:31:40] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:31:41] Steve: How hard could it possibly be to run a profitable airline?

[00:31:44] Right? Like, whenever I’m feeling bad about a decision I’ve made or something I’m struggling with or a project didn’t go according to plan, I’m like, “Well-

[00:31:54] Nathan: It wasn’t

[00:31:55] Steve: Hooters Air … it wasn’t Hooters Air. And honestly, like, whoever came up with it and got that across the finish line, like, honestly, more props to you.

[00:32:01] Like, you must be a hell of a salesman. So, uh, it’s funny. Th- this museum is full of these things, and it’s traveling around the world, so it might be in a city, um, you know, I’m not sure which city it is, but it’s called The Museum of Failure.

[00:32:13] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:32:13] Steve: The best part of this museum is on the way out, they had this wall called The Wall of Failure, and it was a kaleidoscope of Post-it Notes.

[00:32:24] Nathan: Okay.

[00:32:24] Steve: Everybody was encouraged to write down their biggest failure on the Post-it Note and put it up on the wall And you look at, it’s multicolored, it’s from one corner to the other, and it was, like, the most uplifting thing I’ve ever seen. Not because, like, Hooters air. I’m not thinking like, “Oh, it could be worse.”

[00:32:41] But rather, like, it made me feel so, so much less alone-

[00:32:45] Nathan: Mm …

[00:32:46] Steve: with the things I was struggling with or the failures I had. You know, there were signs that said three failed businesses, two failed marriages. Um, two… My favorite one was, uh, tried to cut my own bangs. And then you can

[00:33:02] Nathan: visualize it. You’re just like-

[00:33:03] Steve: You’re like, “Yep, I get it.”

[00:33:04] Yeah. And then the last one said, “I farted in yoga.” Like, that poor person probably has never gone back to a yoga class ever again.

[00:33:12] Nathan: Yep.

[00:33:12] Steve: But I’m looking at this wall of failure and it was so uplifting- Mm … because it made me realize that the failures I had or the business struggles I went through was, like, the most human thing- Right

[00:33:23] I could have possibly done at that time. So- Mm … um, failure is something that it, uh, has b- you know, started maybe in draft one or two, was towards the middle of the book. Like what- Yeah … happens after your next failure? And eventually became chapter one. Like- Mm-hmm … welcome to failure. We’re all here. Let’s talk through it.

[00:33:41] Like you said, we’re all in the mud together. Right. We’re gonna, we’re gonna lock arms and we’re gonna crawl through this sludge. Um, I’m gonna tell you some pretty funny jokes along the way that she’ll make you roll your eyes, and we’ll get through this together. And once we kind of fix failure- Mm-hmm … we can then talk about, okay, that happened.

[00:33:58] What do we do? What do we do next?

[00:34:00] Nathan: Yeah,

[00:34:01] Steve: I love that. Okay. So I don’t wanna give away the whole book ’cause it’s totally worth reading. Sure. But the PACT framework. Yes. Like what is, what… When do you apply that and what is it? Sure. So I wanted to come up with something, like, this is not like a top secret protocol.

[00:34:16] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:34:17] Steve: It’s not like the thing that will solve all of your problems, but it’s something you will remember. Mm-hmm. So I, I think of it as you make a pact with yourself. Mm-hmm. So P stands for pause, AKA step one. Like, don’t make things worse. Or-

[00:34:31] Nathan: If you, if you’re digging your own grave- Yeah … stop digging.

[00:34:33] Steve: Yeah.

[00:34:33] Right. There’s that great quote from CS Lewis. I think he says something like, uh, you know, the, if the n- if you realize the next step for you or you’re on the wrong path, the next step, the next correct step is back towards where you came. So for me, I’m like, that’s true, but also actually the next step is to stop walking.

[00:34:51] Nathan: Right.

[00:34:52] Steve: We need to pause first-

[00:34:53] Nathan: Mm-hmm …

[00:34:54] Steve: and figure out like, am I doing the thing- I- is this working? Or do I actually want to train for a 5K again even though I don’t like 5K? Or I’m trying to make this, I’m trying to make Instagram work, which I keep trying to do. Uh, and I’m like, “I don’t like it.” Okay, cool.

[00:35:11] We’re gonna pause. Step two is accept, so A is for accept, and that’s essentially accepting reality. Like, hey man, you have kids. You have a, a life to manage. You have, um… Maybe you have a husband or a wife or a spouse that, um, works two jobs and your time is limited. Like, it’s essentially being honest with yourself, which is so hard, and accepting what’s happening in your situation.

[00:35:41] Um, C is for change. So if you just try, try again the same way, you’ll probably fail, fail again the same way, right?

[00:35:50] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:35:51] Steve: So essentially you’re gonna look back at how you failed in the past with no judgment. Mm-hmm. That was, that was an old version of you. Like, that’s okay. Yeah. But something has to be done differently.

[00:36:01] So how do we look at this like a fun, curious experiment and change something for this next attempt? And then T, obviously the most important word, is for try. Mm. Like, so pause, accept, change, try. And for the try- It’s not just, like, put your head down and do it. Mm. But rather be okay starting ugly, accept the signals life is giving you as you’re trying, and then at the end of your experiment, decide if this is a great path for you.

[00:36:32] Or cool, back to the beginning. Pause, accept, and just navigate this, this framework so that you don’t get caught in this negative cycle in your head, beating yourself up, trying things that are not right for you. You’re actively picking a different path each time, kind of like solving a maze, right? You’re picking a different path until you find the one where you find that strength that you want to double down on and get excited about continuing to do that thing.

[00:36:57] Nathan: I like that framework. I mean, the, the pause and accept, just focusing on that for a minute. There’s so many things that if you understood the full picture of what’s going on in someone’s life, like, you’d be like, “Oh, that’s why you made that decision or, or those things.”

[00:37:11] Steve: Mm-hmm.

[00:37:12] Nathan: You know, like I think about even for my own life, there’s all of these opportunities that I wanna capitalize on, whether it’s, uh, events to go to or business opportunities or ways to scale or get new customers on Kit or things like that.

[00:37:23] Yeah. But I recently had to go through that of, like, the pausing and realizing, okay, a bunch of w- how I’m spending my time isn’t working because of things that my family needed from me. Like what, you know, w- um, what’s going on with my kids, th- where the stage that they’re at and everything like that. And so getting to the point where you’re like, “Oh, okay, I have to…”

[00:37:42] Except, like, I, I can’t change that. Those aren’t things within my control. Sure. You know? It’s like, “Oh, don’t worry about it, we’ll just fix that,” you know, or something like that. You can’t. And so then, like accepting, oh, oh, this season that we’re in, whether it’s for a few weeks or a few years, like, I’m going to have to show up differently.

[00:37:59] Steve: Yeah.

[00:37:59] Nathan: And so then saying, okay, I’m actually… You know, uh, and let me just accept that. I, I can’t force it to be differently. And so then I’m gonna change the way that I show up. Sure. And, uh, you know, I found myself going through the exact same framework and realizing, okay, and here’s the different things I’m gonna try as far as certain interactions or, or a different schedule or, or those things.

[00:38:19] And, like, you just hold it really loosely.

[00:38:21] Steve: Yep.

[00:38:22] Nathan: And I think that’s such an important thing. And it- Well, I

[00:38:24] Steve: was, I was gonna say- Go ahead … not only that, um- I think there are parts of life and times or phases in life, uh, I, I refer to as, like, treading water.

[00:38:33] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:38:33] Steve: You know, you’re doing just enough to stay afloat-

[00:38:35] Nathan: Yeah

[00:38:36] Steve: so that you can survive until tomorrow. Not that you think help may be coming or not, but sometimes if you’re sprinting on writing a book or navigating something in your personal life, or you have young kids, like, maybe half-assing a workout- Right … or working out once a week is, like, the most you can do, and you’re just treading water on that activity.

[00:39:00] You can do that for weeks- Mm … months, years. Like, what’s the least amount I can do to tell myself, like, I’m not giving up, right? We talk about, oh, if you’re not making progress, you’re falling behind. It’s like, actually treading water instead of swimming in the wrong direction, like, is actually, like, the next best option.

[00:39:16] Right. And you can do that forever. While writing this book, I half-assed my workouts for years I own a fitness company. And I felt okay with that- Right … because, like, this is the amount of, um, this is the amount of energy mentally, physically, that I can give to this right now. I’m okay with that. But I had to accept that I’m not gonna be getting stronger.

[00:39:38] Nathan: Right.

[00:39:39] Steve: I had to accept that I’m not making progress in these other ways, but it’s allowing me to focus on the one thing for me that’s the most important, which was getting this book done, healing, like, taking care of myself- Mm-hmm … and what’s going on in my life. Uh, but you have to accept there are constraints that are actually really helpful to acknowledge and accept, ’cause it stops you from always feeling…

[00:40:01] Like, you wake up every day- Yeah … I’m already behind. I have more to do. I’m a failure or a loser because I can’t… In the book I say, like, instead of trying to get better at juggling chainsaws, like, maybe it’s okay that you stop juggling chainsaws, like, for now. Right. You can come back to it later. But for now, you can’t do it all, and that’s okay.

[00:40:22] Something that I’ve noticed in

[00:40:24] Nathan: a lot of our friends who have been doing this for a long time is sort of this idea of everything old is new again. Like, we built these businesses in order to have, uh, to scale it up to a certain level, to make this money, and then we could do the thing that we really love.

[00:40:39] And so many people end up in a similar place to you where, where it’s like, oh, I am not actually… I don’t actually enjoy the scale side of it, I enjoy the writing side of it. Um, and before we dive into that, what I’m curious about is just talking more about those early days. Oof. Right? Chris Guillebeau. Yep.

[00:40:56] So I was in the same position where I think I’ve read a guest post that he wrote on Tim Ferriss’ blog. So I’d read Four Hour Work Week.

[00:41:03] Steve: Yep.

[00:41:04] Nathan: And then I found this Chris Guillebeau guy, and then I think I read his entire site- … cover to cover as if it was a book- Yep … but it was a blo- it was, like, three years of blog posts.

[00:41:15] Steve: Yep.

[00:41:15] Nathan: And then I saw that he was coming to Boise on his book tour in, like, five days, and I went to that. I didn’t end up… He was promoting the first World Domination Summit-

[00:41:25] Steve: Okay …

[00:41:25] Nathan: which you went to.

[00:41:26] Steve: Yep.

[00:41:28] Nathan: And I didn’t go that first year, but I went the second year.

[00:41:30] Steve: Yeah.

[00:41:31] Nathan: And that’s where I met, you know, where we met you, and James Clear, and Corbett Barr, and, you know, uh, Caleb Wojcik, and just- Yeah

[00:41:37] tons and tons of people. Um, but I wanna go back to that early… Like, what was the point where you realized, like, “Oh, I love to write, and I could actually make money doing this”?

[00:41:46] Steve: Sure. I remember the first six months of writing, I think, and I didn’t even know… I don’t even think I had an, an email list yet.

[00:41:53] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:41:54] Steve: I had 100… After six months of writing, I had 100 RSS subscribers. That’s how old school this is. Yeah. My bones are grinding to dust over here- … as a dinosaur. I had 100 RSS subscribers. Yep. And then I saw that Chris had a newsletter, and he sent, like I said, Mondays- Yeah … and Wednesdays. Or Mondays and Thursdays, excuse me.

[00:42:14] So I, I switched my writing. At the time, I didn’t love it. I was writing super short articles that were timely about time-sensitive, you know, something that happened that day or that week, because that was the prevailing wisdom- Right … back then. Oh, man. This… Oh, man, we’re… I’m gonna bring this… I’m gonna land this plane, dude.

[00:42:32] Yeah. Don’t you worry. Uh, talking about old is new again. So back then, short form content was the king. Yeah. You had to write short or… ‘Cause nobody had the time or attention. This is in 2009, dude. People were saying nobody has the time, or energy, or attention span to read longer articles.

[00:42:49] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:42:50] Steve: And then I found Chris, and then I found Brett McKay over at The Art of Manliness.

[00:42:54] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:42:55] Steve: And he wrote long articles full of research, and quotes, and references, and I said I think I wanna try that.

[00:43:03] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:43:03] Steve: And same Adam Baker, who ran- Yeah … Man vs. Debt, wrote an article called How to Not Suck at Blogging, and I read it and I said, “Oh, crap, I suck at blogging.” And I changed it. I started writing longer articles.

[00:43:17] I put way more of my personality into it. Mm. It was evergreen. It was full of nerdy references, thing that most people wouldn’t understand. And to this day I still remember, I got my first comment from a guy. His name was Evan. I have no idea where Evan is these days, but I hope he’s doing well. Evan was the first, like, random stranger who read my site, left a comment, and said like, “Oh, I really like this article about Legend of Zelda,” or something.

[00:43:41] It’s like, “Okay, we have a reader, and we have people signing up for my newsletter.” And then I kept writing, and when I was writing these longer articles, chasing curiosities about big, deep, you know, long-form content, it started to pick up traction. Mm-hmm. And back then it was links on Twitter actually worked, and- Yeah

[00:44:00] my essays started to get bounced around. Brett from Art of Manliness reached out and said, “Hey, I like your website. If you ever wanna write a guest post for me, let me know.” And you know how it i- right? Like, back then a guest post-

[00:44:14] Nathan: Oh, yeah …

[00:44:14] Steve: was like you made it. You won the lottery. It’s like, okay. I spent, I think, six weeks working on this essay for The Art of Manliness, ’cause I loved that website.

[00:44:24] Oh, yeah. And still do. Brett’s, Brett and Kate are amazing. So I, I write this guest post, and then I woke up one day- And I thought my site had got hacked because Google had just put out, like, their Penguin update or some, some SEO algorithm update, and my traffic, like, 100X’d in a day. I legitimately thought it was hacked, and I didn’t know.

[00:44:48] Yeah. So I asked on Twitter, “Something is wrong with my site. Does it… Can anybody tell me, like, am I being hacked or something?” I don’t, I didn’t know what the heck. I didn’t know what SEO was.

[00:44:58] Nathan: Right.

[00:44:59] Steve: I wasn’t writing for SEO. I didn’t know, but all of a sudden, some of my articles jumped to the front page or the top search term for, for Google, and all of a sudden, traffic was, like, just kind of jumped in there.

[00:45:10] So there was something with my writing that kept people reading. Mm. It was e- when I could write in an entertaining way, as you’ve just read in this book, like, I have to make it entertaining. Yeah. Uh, otherwise, it’s not fun for me. So I make it entertaining and realize, like, “Oh, this is what I want to be doing.”

[00:45:30] Yeah, it kind of feels like homework in some ways. I have to publish on Mondays and Thursdays, but those constraints really helped, too- Mm … for my overactive brain. Uh, and I just put my head down for, like, geez, like, a decade. Mm-hmm. And just focused on writing and the craft of writing and getting better, building that audience.

[00:45:50] And speaking of old is new, back then also, the other thing that was really helpful, going to conferences- Yeah … and spending time with people in person. Yeah. So it felt very much like long form blogs- Mm … connecting with people in real life. I mean, think of how many of our friends came from that first or second or third World Domination Summit.

[00:46:08] Nathan: Oh, I mean, dozens.

[00:46:10] Steve: Dozens. Like- And we’ve all been through it, and we all kind of like, oh, shared experience. So, uh, I, like, old is new, man. Oh, short form content is the only thing that works now. Uh, online, it doesn’t work the same way and- Right … um, everything is AI and work remotely, so, like, don’t worry about getting together in person.

[00:46:30] Mm. Go the exact opposite direction on all of those things. Right. Feels like a return to form. For me, it feels like return to home. Mm. It’s like getting back to doing the things and connecting with people in a, in a great way. Yeah, and that’s

[00:46:43] Nathan: what I’ve noticed is it worked back then and it works now of if you write something that’s really valuable- And it’s not in a generic way, but you put your heart and soul or, or your unique voice into it, then people will say like, “Wow, I learned something I didn’t know.

[00:47:01] I learned it from someone that I like and respect, and I learned it in an interesting way. Like, I’m all in.” Yeah. “Just give me a… You know, however I follow you, whether it’s on a social platform or a newsletter, like absolutely.” And then ultimately people are like, “And you know, I got to meet up in person at a book launch party or at any of these other things.”

[00:47:20] Like, community still really matters, and, um, it’s amazing to see like that still work and that still be rewarded.

[00:47:29] Steve: Yeah, I, I think about this a lot. Even with, I think with, with more and more content, the internet getting flooded with more and more content. We love humans, and we love learning from other humans, and we can tell…

[00:47:45] I mean, at least, I, I think I can tell when somebody really put their heart and soul-

[00:47:49] Nathan: Yeah …

[00:47:50] Steve: into something. Mm-hmm. Like, the people that, like, agonize over, like, the placement of, uh, certain words or phrases. Um, I have a section in the book, I talk about comedy and there’s this great quote from Mike Birbiglia who said something like, “Stand-up comedy is, like, the art of it is making it seem like this…

[00:48:10] Make it seem like something that you just came up with and, like, you’re kind of surprised by it.” But really, like, you’ve been practicing it and you tested intonations and you’ve changed words and phrases because they care that much about the craft. Uh, I’m trying to apply that to writing. And similarly, I’ve seen that…

[00:48:28] I got a chance to attend Craft and Commerce last year. Yeah. And that was the first conference I had been to probably since, uh, World Domination Summit a decade earlier or whatever. Right. And I saw the attention to detail. I saw all of my old friends who are still like, “We’re still here.” Mm-hmm. Whether they’re treading water or working on the next activity or working c- with a completely different set of bloggers or YouTubers or whatever.

[00:48:55] It’s like, oh, like, shared experiences. Other people that have been through the mud.

[00:49:00] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:49:00] Steve: Like, we have some people still in the mud and trying to crawl out. Some people that maybe, like, tried the online thing and it didn’t work, but they still want to come see their friends. Like, that community is so powerful, and for me to show up last year, it was truly, like, life-giving.

[00:49:15] Mm. So y- you and your team put on an amazing conference. Um- Thank

[00:49:19] Nathan: you …

[00:49:19] Steve: it inspired… I’ve now attended, like, five conferences in the past year. And, uh, I, I was saying earlier, it kind of feels like college and like, oh, yeah, people that I haven’t seen in a few months- I now just like, “Oh, hey. Hey, Nathan. What’s up, dude?”

[00:49:34] Like, I haven’t seen you in months, but I saw you yesterday- Right … or the day before. And it just felt like I had just seen you a few days prior. Um, it’s so… I think that’s the only way we’re all gonna get through this is relationships, doubling down on your strengths, and, um, finding that craft, that part that you’re, like, willing to obsess over the details on in a way that, like, you just love.

[00:49:57] You cannot help yourself. That’s me and writing. And I, I, I wish I had just stuck with it longer or rather hadn’t kinda taken that detour. Right. Um, because it worked 15 years ago.

[00:50:10] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:50:10] Steve: Going to conferences and writing longform. And now I’m going to conferences and writing longform, in book form or newsletter form.

[00:50:19] Nathan: And it works.

[00:50:19] Steve: And it not only d- it works, but I’ve tried to do so many things recently where- Mm-hmm … like, I’m willing to do this so that I can stop doing it.

[00:50:28] Nathan: Oh, yeah. It’s a means to an end.

[00:50:30] Steve: It’s a means to an end, and I just don’t wanna… Okay, fine. I’ll try it, and I’ll do it, but my whole goal is to stop doing it.

[00:50:36] Like, that’s not a great reason to start doing something. But writing, like, the goal is to keep writing.

[00:50:42] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:50:43] Steve: So many people have asked me, “Oh, you wrote a book. What’s your back, what’s the backend funnel?” Or, “Are you gonna go on a speaking tour?” I’m like, “No. The goal is to write- Write … write more, to write the next book.

[00:50:53] Hopefully, to have an opportunity to do that because I’m getting to do the thing that I love, and that is the means, the end is the means here. Yes, you. Go to Craft and Commerce. Uh, I’ll be there, and, uh, I plan on coming every year, so get used to it.

[00:51:08] Nathan: I love it.

[00:51:09] Steve: Uh, I came last year, and I was like, “Yep, these are my people.”

[00:51:11] And it felt like World Domination Summit back in the day, and I loved it. So if you’re thinking about it, uh, make the trip. Also, Boise is incredible. I had never been. It’s pretty great. Like, oh, I get it. Oh, these mountains- … are so beautiful, and everybody’s hiking, and everybody’s hap… Like, this is great. So,

[00:51:30] Nathan: um, well done, sir.

[00:51:32] That is so special to hear about Craft and Commerce because when World Domination Summit came to an end, we really wanted to make sure that we had… We’re trying to create the successor to that, of, like, this, this place that everyone could come back to, uh, be human, connect with each other, learn, have shared values.

[00:51:53] And so it was so special, like, to see you there, to see Caleb Wojcik there, like, all of these people. Uh, Josh Kaufman is coming. He just told- Yes … said yesterday that he’s coming. Yes. And then, like, we’re even hanging out right before recording this, you know, and, uh, with Sam Vander Wielen, and, and, and she says goodbye before we sit down to record this.

[00:52:10] And we’re like, and we’re all like, “Well, see you in two months,” you know? See you

[00:52:12] Steve: in two months. Um, also, I’ve… Can I tell a quick, funny story about Josh Kaufman?

[00:52:15] Nathan: Yes.

[00:52:16] Steve: Yes. So I met Josh a decade ago. Mm-hmm. Um, James Clear had put together a little writer group back, way back in the day, and I met Josh. I was like, “Okay, this dude is nerdy and a little weird, and I love him.”

[00:52:32] And I came to Craft and Commerce last year, and I was talking with Tim Grahl.

[00:52:36] Nathan: Yep.

[00:52:37] Steve: And had… Who is, I know, a frequent guest on your podcast. Yes, he

[00:52:40] Nathan: is. I think he’s the most-

[00:52:41] Steve: Yep …

[00:52:41] Nathan: most frequent

[00:52:41] Steve: guest. Oh, man. He’s the best, and he lives three minutes from me in Nashville. So I see him all the time. Um, but I was talking to Tim and saying, “Gosh, like, my publisher, like, they’re really happy with the book, but there’s some part of it that just isn’t fitting for me.”

[00:52:55] Mm. And I said to… And Tim said, “You know Josh, right?” I said, “Yeah, I love Josh.” Josh says… Or Tim said, “Josh is the man. Like, he can help. Like, what do you- Mm. And I really struggle asking for help-

[00:53:08] Nathan: Yeah …

[00:53:08] Steve: for anything, which has been weird promoting a book. But, uh, he said, “Just text…” So I texted Josh, and he said… I said, “I, I could use your help.

[00:53:17] Can I get some of your eyes on this book?”

[00:53:19] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:53:19] Steve: And he said, “How soon can you be here?” So I changed my flight. Mm. On the morning home from Craft and Commerce, I flew home a day ear- and I flew directly to, to hang out with Josh.

[00:53:29] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:53:30] Steve: And while I played video games with his son-

[00:53:33] Nathan: Yep. His son’s name is Nathan.

[00:53:34] Yep. I’ve played video games, played Zelda with Nathan before.

[00:53:39] Steve: Um, while playing video games with Nathan, uh, Josh read my book, and he said, “Oh, I got it. This is you. This is the part where it’s maximum Steve.” Mm-hmm. “This is the part where you’re trying to probably sound a little bit too much like James Clear.

[00:53:56] This is the part where you’re trying to sound a little bit too, like, too much like Mark Manson-

[00:54:00] Nathan: Yeah …

[00:54:01] Steve: too much like Oliver Burkeman or Morgan Housel. But this, these parts and this chapter goes, like, this is it, man. This is your book.” And, uh, it was so helpful to have that 10 years of ex- You know, I’ve known him for- Mm

[00:54:16] a decade, and we’ve spent enough time together, even though we don’t live in the same place- Yeah … so that I could text him at a moment’s notice, and he was like, “How can I help?”

[00:54:25] Nathan: Right.

[00:54:25] Steve: Um, and I’m so, so appreciative for that, and I think I ended up with a better book because of it, because I was willing to ask for help.

[00:54:31] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:54:32] Steve: Because of had I not come to Craft and Commerce, I don’t know. Tim might not have had that idea. Right. And I never would’ve… I was like, “I’m struggling with these chapters.” And I was like, “I just need a few more months.” And he said, “You’ve been struggling with the order of those chapters for six months, dude.”

[00:54:46] Nathan: Two more won’t do

[00:54:47] Steve: it. “Tim, maybe you accept that you can’t figure it out right now, and you need some help.” Mm-hmm. And accepting that and having the courage to ask was g- a game changer. So I’m so appreciative to Josh, and that is all downstream of coming to conferences in person, connecting with the right people, and being willing to be, I think, vulnerable in some ways and accepting kind of, like, the challenges that maybe you’re facing and where other people are actually really good at what they do.

[00:55:15] Maybe they can help you do

[00:55:16] Nathan: those things. Maybe. Shocking, I know. Oh, I love that. I actually have a very similar Josh story. But from 24 hours ago. And that is where I also have this book that the publisher says, “Yeah, we’ll do a final copy edit. It’s good to go.” And I’m like, “It’s not yet.” And getting people to review it in detail, like that’s a big ask and all that, so I’m very hesitant to do that.

[00:55:41] Steve: Yep.

[00:55:41] Nathan: And, uh, then yesterday I was like- Josh, would you be, would you, would you help me out on this book? And he’s like, “Send it to me. I’ll, I’ll have it done. I’ll read it on the plane.” You have to go

[00:55:52] Steve: play video games with him. That’s the rule. He will also cook you a lovely smoked brisket from the backyard.

[00:55:57] And then, and then you have to play video games, yeah.

[00:55:59] Nathan: Yes. And so that, yeah, I’m excited for him to dive into my book and, give him-

[00:56:05] Steve: Poor Josh, we’re gonna blow him up here,

[00:56:06] Nathan: but. Give him the Josh Kaufman treatment. He’s like, “I’m trying to write my own book,

[00:56:11] Steve: but all

[00:56:11] Nathan: my

[00:56:11] Steve: friends-”

[00:56:11] Nathan: He’s gotta take all these distractions to help other people with their books.

[00:56:14] Yeah, exactly. Oh, Josh, he’s the best. So I wanna, uh, I wanna wrap up on the idea of, like, longevity and endurance. Sure. So you and I have been doing this for a long time. We met 14 years ago. Y- when I came into this world, you were one of, like, the six people that I knew who was, like, earning a full-time living.

[00:56:32] Y- you know, it’s like you, and Chris, and Liam Abatta, and Josh, um- Yep … Adam Baker. You know, like-

[00:56:37] Steve: Yeah …

[00:56:38] Nathan: this, uh, this small group. And we’ve touched on a few of them already, but I’m curious, what are the things that stand out to you most in the how do you make sure that you can be doing this creative work?

[00:56:49] I’m not even gonna call it, like, as a creator, ’cause that implies the business side of it. Sure. But that you can be doing this creative work 10 years, 20 years

[00:56:56] Steve: from now? Yeah. I think you have to either fall in love with the … It sounds so cliche, right? And I don’t mean like chase your passion and follow your dreams.

[00:57:06] Like, there’s no vision board or m- or whatever. I mean, like, we’re all, we all get a chance to try different aspects of- Mm … this online business thing, and that is the experimentation part. You have to be willing to also then realize, like, oh, something about this path maybe feels a little different. Mm. And then not burning yourself out going down that path.

[00:57:28] I had no problem writing two articles a week for a decade. Yeah. Because it didn’t … I don’t wanna say it didn’t feel like work, but I loved getting better at it. I really, really enjoyed it. The, this other part felt like I was, you know, uh, the, the trying to force myself to become a boss of a bigger company.

[00:57:46] Mm-hmm. And spending my time in, like, leadership training and reading leadership books and all of that, it felt like, it felt like a lot of work. Mm. And it felt like I was struggling through all of it. And after years of this, I finally accepted or finally said to myself, like, “Hey, this other part-

[00:58:04] Nathan: Mm-hmm …

[00:58:04] Steve: you could do that for the rest of your life.”

[00:58:06] Nathan: Right.

[00:58:06] Steve: You get the thing that you’re doing, the goal is to, that you get to keep doing it. Um, so you either have to fall in love with maybe there’s some aspect of the business, or you fall in love with, like, I love taking this from zero to one and handing it off to somebody- Mm … that is more capable of it.

[00:58:23] I love that part of it. I think there is some longevity there. Uh, and there … I won’t tell the story, but there is a story about, um- The worst vacation ever that I start my book with about treading water where a guy falls off a boat in the middle of the night. Um, turns out humans can tread water for quite a while.

[00:58:43] And I’m thinking about this longevity here. You know, the goal is to not just to win, but to not lose, right? Mm-hmm. Like, how can you, how can you be around long enough? Back then we were making, you know, a few bucks and writing, but our expenses were less- Right … than our, um, than our cost of living. Um, or rather the, you know, our revenue was higher than our expenses, and we could write, and you could build a little audience.

[00:59:07] And that, I think, is what’s sustainable because you can stay lo- You don’t have to start making short-term decisions. You can think longer. Yeah. So for me, it was like I’m going to take a few years to go write this book because I’m planning for the next 15, 20 years. I’ve… This is what I’m meant to be doing.

[00:59:24] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:59:25] Steve: I’m willing to tread water on so many other parts of my life, maybe this other business, because I can focus on the thing that will provide that longevity.

[00:59:34] Nathan: Yeah. I think it’s that falling in love with the craft and then surrounding yourself with people who have fallen in love with their craft as well.

[00:59:41] Steve: With their craft. That’s the most important part. And

[00:59:42] Nathan: it doesn’t have to be the same craft. Something that stood out to me once, I was at this entrepreneur, a creator entrepreneur event in Malibu, and it’s this fancy thing, all these investors and, you know, all of that. And people were going around the room, maybe 20 people are all introducing themselves.

[00:59:59] And someone’s like, “Well, I’m a serial entrepreneur,” this and that, “and I’ve got a big YouTube audience, and, you know, I’ve written two books.” Or, uh… Then they’re listing all these things and get around. And it c- gets to Ryan Holiday’s turn, and he goes, “I’m a writer And he just sort of gestures to the next person.

[01:00:14] Yep. And you- And I know his business, like he’s done really a lot of things, but at his core, he is a writer. That is what he wants to do. And he wants to get his message out there to a lot of people. He works with a team so that, you know, he can build a very large email list and all these other things. But at his core, he wants to write.

[01:00:34] And that’s the thing that I’ve seen from, from Ryan, from Mark Manson, from you, is this obsession with the craft of writing. Yep. And just saying, “Oh, so you wrote a book so that you could…” And he’s like, “No, no, I wrote a book because

[01:00:49] Steve: that’s what I’m trying to do.” Yeah. “I wrote a book because I wanna write and I wanna tell these stories, and I wanna impact people in this way.”

[01:00:54] Uh, so I was at a, a s- a similar small group in, I think it was 2020. Mm-hmm. And Ryan was talking about opening his bookstore.

[01:01:01] Nathan: Yeah.

[01:01:01] Steve: But I was also sharing, like, “Man, I’m struggling. I got this team and I wanna do this,” and he was just very plain. He was just like, “Sounds like the decision’s made, dude. Like, what are you, what are you doing?

[01:01:14] Like, go…” Like, he was legitimately confused. I know, yeah. He’s like, “It sounds like you want to write, and you’re not writing, and you have this thing that you don’t want to do, but you’re doing it.” “It sounds like there’s a pretty simple solution here.” And that was February of 2020. Mm-hmm. So, uh, he then went home and obviously opened his bookstore and-

[01:01:34] uh, has been crushing it. Uh- I

[01:01:36] Nathan: think he might have regretted the bookstore for a little bit in the pandemic. And then was like, “Okay, now it’s doing amazing.”

[01:01:41] Steve: Right. Um, but I thought about that a lot, and that group was so helpful. Again, a small group of creative people that care about the craft. Yeah. Right?

[01:01:50] And I took that to heart and came home and said like … Kinda like I said, like, I need to make changes, but then the pandemic, business doubled and was like, “Oh, God.” “Um, okay, uh, well, we’re gonna come back to that later.” But, uh, it was the return to craft- Mm-hmm … and caring about it. Yeah. Like that Mike Birbiglia quote and, um, it’s so, so, so valuable to find other people that most people don’t get the opportunity-

[01:02:13] Nathan: Mm-hmm

[01:02:13] Steve: to find their craft and to care about it enough to be successful We’re lucky, right? I, I feel so lucky that we can be in the room with people that have found it, that feel that enthusiasm, and I feed off of that.

[01:02:26] Nathan: Yeah.

[01:02:26] Steve: And I feel it similarly when I’m doing my craft. And the goal with this is so that I can keep writing.

[01:02:33] Hopefully, it’s been, whatever, 18, nine- 17 years since I started writing, and I hope it’s 17 plus more- Yeah … that I get to keep doing this because it’s truly, like, what I actually enjoy to do.

[01:02:43] Nathan: That’s amazing. Well- It shows in the book, How to Try Again. It’s fantastic, available- Wherever books are sold

[01:02:50] Steve: Everywhere.

[01:02:51] All

[01:02:51] Nathan: right. Around the world. Uh, where should people go to follow your stuff?

[01:02:55] Steve: Yeah.

[01:02:56] Nathan: Read the book, all of those things.

[01:02:57] Steve: So simple. It’s go to howtotryagain.com.

[01:03:00] Nathan: What a great URL.

[01:03:01] Steve: So … Can I tell one final quick story? Yes, let’s do it. Okay. So the working title was Restart-

[01:03:06] Nathan: Uh-huh …

[01:03:07] Steve: through the first two years of writing it.

[01:03:09] And I went to visit my brother in San Diego, and he’s got a lovely niece, and I got sick. She’s, you know, two, is like a walking, walking germ. Uh, so I got sick. I came back to Nashville, lying in bed, couldn’t type, full of, you know, cough medicine, and it just popped into my head. Mm. I was like, I, I knew Restart wasn’t it, but I couldn’t- Yeah

[01:03:27] come up with a title. And then I thought back to t- talking, uh, to, or James, and James is like, “If you can find a title that tells you what the book does-” Mm … and a hook that tells them the, the, the premise of the book. Um, and How to Try Again popped into my head. Mm. So I went on Amazon, and I typed in How to Try Again.

[01:03:47] This sounds very similar to Nerd Fitness. Yeah. I typed in How to Try Again, and nothing popped up. I went to howtotryagain.com, available. Immediately bought. $9. Haven’t even talked, haven’t even talked to my publisher yet. I just bought it. Yeah. And I bought, you know, uh, bought the domain, and then I told the publisher, “Hey, I got this idea for a title.”

[01:04:05] Um, and then I’d like to share so-

[01:04:07] Nathan: Yeah …

[01:04:08] Steve: this is the, the first line on the front of the book is the first line of my book proposal.

[01:04:13] Nathan: Okay.

[01:04:14] Steve: And it, the publishers, it was their idea. A shout-out to St. Martin’s Press. It was their idea to put this on the cover. Um- Some people wake up at 4:00 AM, run 15 miles barefoot, and take an ice bath.

[01:04:25] This book is for the rest of us.

[01:04:27] Nathan: Mm.

[01:04:27] Steve: So this book, um, I wanted the premise to tell you exactly what it does.

[01:04:33] Nathan: Yep.

[01:04:34] Steve: And I wanted the tagline to sell- tell you, like, what kind of humor it is and who exactly it’s for. And, and then I could spend all of my time crafting and working on the, the… what chapters go where- Right

[01:04:45] with Josh’s help. Which words go where, and working my way through it. Um, I’m so proud of it. But if you go to howtotryagain.com, um, it’s available there and literally everywhere books are sold. And I got to read the audiobook, which was a delight. It’s so good. It…

[01:05:00] Nathan: I listened to the audiobook. It makes me so happy- Yes

[01:05:02] to hear you tell your own jokes, laugh at your own jokes and all of that.

[01:05:07] Steve: Thank you very much. I worked really hard on it. I’m so proud of it, and I think it’s gonna help people. That’s amazing. Well, go check out the book. Steve, thank you so much for coming on. Thanks, man.

[01:05:15] Nathan: If you enjoyed this episode, go to YouTube and search The Nathan Barry Show, then hit subscribe and make sure to like the video and drop a comment.

[01:05:23] I’d love to hear what some of your favorite parts of the video were, and also just who else you think we should have on the show. Thank you so much for

[01:05:30] listening.