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What a Muslim Brotherhood Win in Egypt Could Mean for U.S.

Fri, 25 May 2012 18:11:00 EDT

Two of the most-polarizing candidates for Egypt's presidency might face off in a runoff after a partial vote count Friday in the country's first free presidential election. Jeffrey Brown and McClatchy reporter Nancy Youssef discuss the candidates, Ahmed Shafiq of the Mubarak regime, and the Muslim Brotherhood's Mohammed Morsi.

JEFFREY BROWN: Reporter Nancy Youssef is covering the elections for McClatchy Newspapers in Cairo. I spoke to her a short time ago.

Nancy, thanks for joining us.

So what's its reaction there? Is this seen as a surprising result?

NANCY YOUSSEF, McClatchy Newspapers: Yes, people are really stunned here.

The news started trickling in around 4:00 in the morning. And many people woke up and were shocked at the results. And if you were a revolutionary, you were particularly shocked because none of the revolutionary candidates appeared to make the runoff, which means, rather than sort of creating the great reform that they had hoped for, people are really voting for some of the past ideas, whether it was the 80-year-old Muslim Brotherhood or a regime candidate.

So there's really been a state of shock throughout the country about the outcome of the elections and really in what areas each candidate did very well in.

JEFFREY BROWN: Well, tell us a little bit about what looks to be the two finalists and how they are polarizing figures, Mohammed Morsi and Ahmed Shafiq.

NANCY YOUSSEF: Well, Ahmed Shafiq was Hosni Mubarak's last prime minister in the final days before he was deposed.

He's a former air force general, a colleague of Mubarak's, and has really been unapologetic about his ties to the regime. He has promised to restore order in this country and security at a time where people are suffering from more crimes since the revolutionary -- from more unemployment and higher food prices.

And he is really unapologetically a face of the past. And one could argue his base is what they called the couch party, those who stayed home during the revolution. Mohammed Morsi was a name that sort of emerged pretty late in the campaign after the Brotherhood's first candidate dropped out.

And he's by everyone's estimation a rather uncharismatic leader, but has the backing of a huge organized machine here, the best organized political machine in Egypt, the Muslim Brotherhood, which really galvanized the vote on his behalf.

And he has promised to bring back -- bring Egypt the kind of Islamic state that the Brotherhood has talked about for years and years, for decades in exile, and recently since the revolution in open areas.

JEFFREY BROWN: So the more secular forces that you were talking about earlier who pushed for the revolution to oust Mubarak, they're feeling confused, angry. What happened to them?

NANCY YOUSSEF: They will tell you the mistake that they made was that they had three revolutionary candidates on the ballot. Had they just had one, they would have had someone.

And so the leading of the three, Hamdeen Sabahi, got 20 percent of the vote, compared to 26 and 24 percent from Morsi and Shafiq respectively. The other thing that they will tell you is that they were poorly organized, that they were too decentralized, and that they didn't really get behind a person.

And we're already starting to hear threats of boycotting in the general election. We're hearing threats of violence. We're even hearing people saying that they will vote for Mohammed Morsi despite the fact they don't agree with anything he stands for, because it's better than putting someone in from the regime back in power. To do so would really essentially kill the revolution.

You can hear the sort of rumblings here about, is the revolution over now that these two are the candidates? And I think, for some people, today, it is.

JEFFREY BROWN: So you mean the potential for unrest again is very real precisely because of these potential two candidates?

NANCY YOUSSEF: Absolutely.

I mean, in the days up until the revolution, I ran into people who said, I'm voting for Shafiq even though I know this will lead to war, you know, because for -- he's such a polarizing figure in a way, more than Morsi, because he is the face of the very thing that people died for to get rid of.

And so there is an expectation here that, at the minimum, people will go back to Tahrir Square. Conversely, if Morsi ends up losing in the runoff election, we could see Islamists going to the street and not accepting the results of the election. And so there is a real possibility of instability here in the days and weeks to come.

JEFFREY BROWN: So, of course, Nancy, there are wider stakes beyond Egypt. You have a lot of people watching. You have other Arab countries, you have Israel, and of course the U.S.

What are the stakes for the U.S. in this?

NANCY YOUSSEF: Well, I think, primarily, the stakes are the potential of either having relatively similar relations to Egypt that they had under the Mubarak regime, and fundamentally different relations.

Remember, that for years, the Muslim Brotherhood was shunned by the United States. And the Brotherhood hasn't forgotten that and has sort of promised to the public that they will distance themselves from the United States.

So this portends of a weakened relationship, not only for the United States, but by extension for Israel, and even puts the peace accords in jeopardy. So it is as much at stake in a way for the United States as it is for voters here in terms of the kind of outcome that could come from this election.

JEFFREY BROWN: All right, Nancy Youssef in Cairo for us, thanks so much.

NANCY YOUSSEF: Thank you.

Partial Vote Count in Egypt Reveals Deep Rifts Among Public

Fri, 25 May 2012 18:09:00 EDT

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Preliminary results from Egypt's first free presidential election show the two most-polarizing candidates for president might face each other in a mid-June runoff -- a potential battle between Hosni Mubarak's final prime minister, Ahmed Shafiq, and the Muslim Brotherhood's candidate, Mohammed Morsi. Jeffrey Brown reports.

JEFFREY BROWN: And we turn to Egypt, where the vote count from round one of the presidential elections reveals deep rifts among the public. Preliminary results showed the two most-polarizing candidates for president might very well face each other in a mid-June runoff. That would set up a battle between the secular, military-backed elite that's ruled Egypt for decades and the Islamist forces it long suppressed.

The leading vote-getter appeared to be the Muslim Brotherhood's candidate, Mohammed Morsi, with roughly 25 percent. The Brotherhood was banned in Egypt until last February's revolution toppled Hosni Mubarak. It dominated parliamentary elections late last year. Neck and neck with Morsi in the voting was Mubarak's final prime minister, Ahmed Shafiq.

The former general promised a return to law and order amid a cresting crime wave.

On Cairo streets today, the stark divisions were clear.

AHMED IBRAHIM, Egypt (through translator): Morsi is a religious man, not corrupted, and this is what we need.

DALAL ANWAR, Egypt (through translator): I am very upset with the results. I don't want an Islamist for president, and if there is a runoff, I will vote for Shafiq.

JEFFREY BROWN: In third place for now, just behind Shafiq, sat Hamdeen Sabahi, a socialist whose candidacy attracted liberal and leftist voters.

ADHAM EL KAMOUNY, Egypt (through translator): Hamdeen Sabahi is like what he says. He is one of us. He is not considered an Islamist or from the former Mubarak regime. He is just an Egyptian.

JEFFREY BROWN: Largely left out of the bidding was the fractious liberal contingent that fomented revolution in early 2011. It didn't coalesce behind one candidate, splitting its vote among several.

Two men who had recently shared frontrunner status with Morsi appeared well behind. Abdel Moneim Aboul Fotouh's liberal Islamist candidacy had attracted voters seeking to blunt the Muslim Brotherhood's political force. And Amr Moussa, a former foreign minister and Arab league secretary-general, finished with a small percentage of the vote.

The runoff election is scheduled for the weekend of June 16 and 17, with a winner declared June 21.

Bin Laden Raid Led to 'Chilling Effect' on Aid Groups in Pakistan

Thu, 24 May 2012 18:37:00 EDT

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New tension has emerged in the already troubled U.S.-Pakistani relationship after an Islamabad court sentenced Dr. Shakil Afridi to 33 years for helping the CIA find Osama bin Laden last year. Margaret Warner and The Washington Post's Pamela Constable discuss the new fallout for diplomatic ties and humanitarian groups.

MARGARET WARNER: For more on all of this, we turn to Pamela Constable, a longtime reporter on Pakistan for The Washington Post. Her latest book is "Playing with Fire: Pakistan at War With Itself."

And, welcome back, Pam.

PAMELA CONSTABLE, The Washington Post: Delighted to be back.

MARGARET WARNER: Flesh out for us a little more what it is that Dr. Afridi did on behalf of the CIA.

PAMELA CONSTABLE: Well, it's clear what he did was set up a vaccination campaign.

He hired local nurses, he hired local health aids, at their behest, and went out and apparently borrowed some cases for vaccine holders from the World Health Organization, and went out in the area of Abbottabad, the city, to vaccinate people against hepatitis B.

Now, what's not clear is whether the entire campaign was fake or whether part of it was real. Apparently, some people are saying that actually they did vaccinate a number of people, but then never came back for the second round.

MARGARET WARNER: But what he was trying to get was DNA samples from the compound.

PAMELA CONSTABLE: That's correct.

And we don't really know -- it seems like he didn't. So that leaves open the question, what did he actually do for this operation?

MARGARET WARNER: Right, because we have Hillary Clinton and Secretary Panetta both saying he helped.

PAMELA CONSTABLE: Yes.

MARGARET WARNER: How did his name and this whole scenario leak out?

PAMELA CONSTABLE: Well, I don't believe how it leaked out. But he was picked up very soon after the raid. Within two weeks of the raid, he was picked up by the intelligence agencies.

And they have many, many, what I should say, good contacts with the Pakistani nationalist press. And I'm sure that's how it got out.

MARGARET WARNER: But, I mean, in terms of how Pakistanis even knew to pick him up?

PAMELA CONSTABLE: Oh, well, I don't know the answer to that, but, again, we're talking about an area that's -- everybody knows each other.

It's a tribal region of the country. And he was probably one of the most prominent people there. He was, after all, a surgeon from a tribal area, which means he was a very unusual man to begin with.

MARGARET WARNER: Now, what do the Pakistanis say, and essentially reply to Secretary Clinton's point, which is, why would he be tried and sentenced? He helped find a terrorist or locate a terrorist whom Pakistan says they wish had been apprehended.

PAMELA CONSTABLE: Well, I think the answer to that question, you have to look at the raid itself that killed bin Laden. And the difference between the reaction here in the West and the reaction in Pakistan was like night and day.

Of course, the West was cheering and the White House was cheering. Pakistanis were not cheering at all. They considered it a great affront to their national sovereignty. And they were very embarrassed that they hadn't known.

So what happened today, the fact that the sentencing, the whole notion that he was a traitor, even while we might consider him having done a patriotic act, is more of the same. It's more of the same embarrassment, the same feeling of being affronted, of being part of and working for a foreign state, even if that foreign state was a partner in the war on terror, an ally and a great donor of Pakistan.

MARGARET WARNER: Now, what role , if any, did Save the Children, the NGO, humanitarian group, I think the largest in Pakistan, play? We know -- and I reported in that piece -- that he told the Pakistan intelligence service that somehow he'd been introduced to the CIA by Save the Children.

PAMELA CONSTABLE: Save the Children officials deny they had anything to do with sort of him in this context of this raid.

They do know him or they sort of did know him. He had attended some of their courses in Pakistan. They have got more than 2,000 people working there. They're everywhere. They're all over the country, as you say, very well known, and provided all sorts of training program for people like him. So he was definitely familiar with and had been invited to participate, but everyone at the organization certainly is saying that they had nothing to do what he -- with the actions he took.

MARGARET WARNER: So, what's been the blowback on Save the Children and other humanitarian groups?

PAMELA CONSTABLE: It's been a very big chilling effect.

I mean, Save the Children in particular had felt they had to get a number of people out of the country. I believe they sent eight people out of the country and put some others in hotels who had been working in that area. But they still have many, many hundreds of people in other parts of the country.

But, more broadly, you had Medecins Sans Frontieres, you had a coalition of international nonprofits saying this is terrible for us. We already have a lot of people suspicious of us. The Islamist groups put out propaganda that, if you get a polio, a vaccine, it is going to make you sterile. This will certainly make that worse.

MARGARET WARNER: So, in other words, the Pakistan government has taken retaliation on these NGOs, making it hard for them to operate?

PAMELA CONSTABLE: Not necessarily the Pakistan government.

I think probably there's been pressure from the intelligence services. There's clearly been pressure from the religious groups. There have been threats from the religious groups. I think the government has been more sort of responding to that.

MARGARET WARNER: And has the CIA said anything about whether -- well, I suppose they wouldn't -- whether they do work through NGOs?

PAMELA CONSTABLE: I don't know what they have said specifically. I'm sure they would categorically say that they don't.

There have been a number of other incidents up there in the past couple of years, right in that -- in that little tribal area and in Peshawar of people who were supposedly working for NGOs, and either got killed or arrested or something happened to them. So there is some little murky room there.

MARGARET WARNER: Well, Pam Constable, thank you so much.

PAMELA CONSTABLE: Happy to be here.

U.S.-Pakistani Relations Roiled Again With Punishment of Man Who Helped CIA

Thu, 24 May 2012 18:34:00 EDT

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A year after a U.S. raid killed Osama Bin Laden at his compound in Abbottabad, a Pakistani court sentenced Dr. Shakil Afridi to 33 years in prison this week for helping the CIA locate the al-Qaida leader. Margaret Warner reports on the latest strain in an already tense relationship between the two countries.

JUDY WOODRUFF: Next, new strains in the already troubled relationship between the U.S. and Pakistan, as Islamabad punishes a man who helped Americans last year find the leader of al-Qaida.

Margaret Warner has our story.

MARGARET WARNER: It's been a year since the U.S. raid on this compound in Abbottabad, Pakistan, killed Osama bin Laden and roiled relations between the two countries.

Yesterday, there was fresh fallout, when a Pakistani court sentenced this man, Dr. Shakil Afridi, to 33 years in prison. Afridi, seen here highlighted in red, was convicted of treason for trying to help the CIA track down bin Laden. He was arrested after word leaked that he set up a vaccination program in Abbottabad to try to collect DNA samples from bin Laden's compound.

In Washington today, Secretary of State Hillary Clinton said there was no basis for Afridi's conviction or sentence.

SECRETARY OF STATE HILLARY CLINTON: His help, after all, was instrumental in taking down one of the world's most notorious murderers. That was clearly in Pakistan's interests, as well as ours and the rest of world. This action by Dr. Afridi to help bring about the end of the reign of terror designed and executed by bin Laden wasn't in any way a betrayal of Pakistan.

MARGARET WARNER: The trial took place in Pakistan's Khyber tribal region, a semiautonomous zone where Afridi was raised.

There, courts are governed by a separate set of laws, which human rights groups have criticized for failing to observe basic rights. The case also prompted the Pakistanis to impose new curbs on humanitarian organizations. Afridi had told investigators that one such group, Save the Children, introduced him to the CIA.

News of the doctor's sentence came just days after disappointment at the NATO summit added to tensions between the U.S. and Pakistan. The two sides failed to reach agreement on reopening NATO supply routes into Afghanistan. They have been closed since a U.S. airstrike killed two dozen Pakistani troops last fall.

Meanwhile, back in Washington today, a U.S. Senate committee voted to cut aid to Pakistan by $33 million, $1 million for every year of Dr. Afridi's sentence.

Eurozone's Possible 'Lehman Moment': What it Means for U.S.

Thu, 24 May 2012 18:15:00 EDT

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As the U.S. election season heats up amid rising debt, Europe's woes, expiring Bush-era tax cuts and a scheduled round of spending cuts, the Congressional Budget Office warned the economy could head back into recession. Judy Woodruff speaks with Harvard University's Ken Rogoff and Josh Bivens of the Economic Policy Institute.

JUDY WOODRUFF: And we pick up on Europe's economic crisis to look at the risks it poses here in the U.S., at a time when this country faces its own huge fiscal problem.

How to bring down the United States' rising debt is a topic of growing debate as we head to an election at the end of this year. That's when the Bush era tax cuts are scheduled to expire and a scheduled round of spending cuts are set to take effect.

Well, this week, the Congressional Budget Office warned that if all this was allowed to take place, the economy would be knocked back into recession for the first half of next year.

More on this now from two men who watch the U.S. economy closely, Ken Rogoff of Harvard university and Josh Bivens of the Economic Policy Institute.

Welcome to both of you.

And, Ken Rogoff, to you first.

What is the European scenario that the United States should be most worried about?

KENNETH ROGOFF, Harvard University: Oh, goodness.

I mean, there's really a cliff there. There's a possibility the whole euro can dissolve if they don't take a quantum leap towards unification, and we could have a Lehman moment again. It's not hyperbole to say that.

They have seen that in Europe. They really don't want that to happen again. And yet they can't agree among themselves what are they going to do when Greece leaves, which is the equivalent really of Lehman going under in the United States.

JUDY WOODRUFF: And, Josh Bivens, even short of the worst-case scenario, the U.S. is already feeling the effects of what's happening in Europe.

JOSH BIVENS, Economic Policy Institute: I think that's right.

I think slow growth in Europe and now it looks like outright contraction in a lot of Europe is meaning that we export less. It's a big export market for U.S. goods. And so I would say over the last year, over the coming year, if they enter recession, we're probably talking about less than half a percentage point of GDP knocked off our growth rate because of European troubles, but given that that growth rate is really slow already, that those are precious little percentage points that we can't afford to give up. So, I think we have already felt some effects.

JUDY WOODRUFF: So, Ken Rogoff, meantime, the Congressional Budget Office, as we were just reporting, is this week saying the U.S. on the edge of a fiscal cliff. Just how bad is the debt problem in the United States?

KENNETH ROGOFF: Well, the two things weighing on businesses and why they're not investing as much as they should and why they're not hiring as much as they should are Europe and the fiscal cliff.

They don't know what direction the U.S. economy is going. There is potentially a huge contraction in the U.S. with, as you said, the Bush era tax cuts expiring, payroll tax cuts expiring, and some other changes that would put us into recession. I don't think that's going to happen, but what has everybody nervous is, what are they going to do? Are we going to have tax hikes? Are we going to have government spending cuts? There seems to be no direction, no agreement in Washington on what direction to go.

And there's this huge cloud of uncertainty here compounding what we're seeing in Europe.

JUDY WOODRUFF: But what does that -- just staying with you, Ken Rogoff, what does that mean for the U.S. considering, as you're pointing out, the U.S. -- the economic recovery still very weak? What are the real options for policy-makers?

KENNETH ROGOFF: Well, we could dream that they would do something like the Simpson-Bowles proposal, where they're going to get rid of a lot of tax expenditures and be able to keep rates low, make reforms to Social Security.

We have many things we can do so that we can grow our way out of this deep recession that we have been in, so that we can get on a good, stronger growth path in the future. But there's paralysis in Washington -- I just don't think it's hyperbole to say that -- with two very different, competing visions of where things should go and businesses and the consumer stuck in the middle.

JUDY WOODRUFF: Josh Bivens, it is two very different visions of what should happen. But just to back up for a minute, how do you see the depth of the debt crisis or debt problem facing the United States?

JOSH BIVENS: Well, I think we should be clear.

When people talk about the fiscal cliff coming in 2013, it's not a crisis of too much debt. That's a crisis of ramping down debt too quickly. And I think people need to really realize that. The problem with the tax cuts expire, if the unemployment insurance extensions expire, it's all of a sudden spending power will be sucked out of the economy, spending power that's been supported by expansions of debt.

And in the short term, that's a very good thing and I think it's a real cautionary tale that, yes, we can be concerned about debt projections for 20, 30, 40 years from now, but we shouldn't let that blind us to the fact that the right thing to do here and now is to spend more money, financed by debt, in order to bring the unemployment rate down quickly. And I think that's the real thing we should be focused on.

JUDY WOODRUFF: Ken Rogoff, how do you see about this question of the danger of drawing -- of pushing that debt down too fast?

KENNETH ROGOFF: Well, I agree with Josh that we don't want to push it down too fast, but I don't agree that we're talking about 30 to 40 years.

Our debt level is very high by historical standards. It's likely to weigh on growth in the United States for decades, that our debt is so high already. You don't just want to wildly have it go up. But, yes, we are still in a recession. Unemployment is high. We can't really afford to unwind this quickly.

But I think the key to doing this well is to try to have some real reform, some vision in Washington, when we can both get our debt on a better trajectory and not try to do things too quickly in terms of trying to balance the budget right now.

JUDY WOODRUFF: Josh Bivens, without -- we could get into a lot of detail here, but help us understand why you see the debt situation differently, a little differently from how Ken Rogoff sees it?

JOSH BIVENS: I think there's a couple reasons.

One is, you know, I just weigh the short-term unemployment crisis really heavily. And, in fact, I'm calling it short-term. That's misleading. It might become -- it's already been three or four years of an unemployment crisis and it might linger for a decade to come, if it's not addressed.

So there is a time when we should worry about deficits being too large. And that time is when the economy is healthy and running at full employment again, because deficits run when the economy is depressed just don't hurt you.

And I will just say one other thing, too. We're often told that the optimal policy is stimulus now, long-run deficit reduction and discipline later. And that's right. And we really did that over the past couple years.

I mean, we passed the Recovery Act in 2009. And we passed health care reform, which is a mammoth deficit reducer in the long run. And yet somehow people don't want to give any credit for that. In fact, the CBO in their alternative fiscal scenario basically says, we're not even going to assume that that actually holds in the long run.

So it's an easy thing to say, short-term stimulus, long-term deficit reduction. It's very hard to actually make it stick. And we shouldn't make that the enemy of fighting unemployment in the here and now.

JUDY WOODRUFF: Ken Rogoff, what about that point?

KENNETH ROGOFF: Well, I just don't agree that the deficits aren't a problem now. I agree not to bring them down too fast, that's for sure.

But to think there's not a long-run secular problem here, given how high our debt is, given where things are going, we could be looking at having a level of income 25 percent lower than it would be otherwise a couple decades from now. This isn't just a couple percent. This isn't like we push the problem out into the future.

It's a big problem. But that said, obviously, we're running a really big deficit now. Things are still very difficult. We can't move quickly on this. It would be too painful. But I certainly wouldn't say to go in the other direction. Don't jump off the fiscal cliff, but on the other hand, we could potentially have a much bigger cliff coming down the road if we don't start doing really something sooner, rather than later.

JUDY WOODRUFF: And, Ken Rogoff, you also have worries about this continuing debt and what it means for raising borrowing costs down the road.

KENNETH ROGOFF: Yes, perhaps raising borrowing costs eventually, if people panic. A country like the United States, people have a lot of confidence that we will do something, we won't go the way of Greece.

But if you look over history, there are many, many advanced nations that have gotten in this situation. They raise taxes, they don't default, they don't do something crazy, but it slows growth. So you're comparing an urgent problem, indeed, but with a long-term secular problem. And you have to try to balance these things.

I actually think we have a reasonable balance at the moment if we don't jump off the fiscal cliff, but we don't have a very sensible tax system. We don't have a good growth strategy. We're missing a lot of things. I would concentrate on that. I don't think it's just a matter of there's too much austerity. We're running an 8 percent deficit right now.

JUDY WOODRUFF: Josh Bivens, what's your take on that?

JOSH BIVENS: A couple things.

One, it's true we have so far largely resisted austerity at the federal level in the United States. And that's paid off for us. You compare us to, say, the U.K., an economy that had a very similar recession, a very similar recovery until the middle of 2010, when they embraced austerity, when they elected a conservative government.

Since then, they have stagnated, entered recession. We have continued to grow. I would say at the state and local level, we have not resisted austerity at all. In fact, it's been a big sap on growth, and I think that's been a drag that we should be cognizant of.

And then again, I think we have largely done -- if you think the health reform as enacted actually will be followed to the letter of the law, we have done mammoth deficit reduction in the long run over the past couple years that people just don't want to believe.

We should do lots of other stuff, too. I would love a simpler and better tax code that was fairer and collected more revenue. We should attack health care costs that are growing too fast and blowing up the budget. But I think here and now, the real problem is unemployment and getting it down quickly.

JUDY WOODRUFF: Well, all of this, we are going to continue to watch.

Thank you both, Josh Bivens, Ken Rogoff.

JOSH BIVENS: Thank you.

KENNETH ROGOFF: Thank you.

News Wrap: Egyptian Election Results Expected on Tuesday

Thu, 24 May 2012 18:11:00 EDT

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In other news Thursday, Egyptians flocked to the polls for a second day of voting in their first freely contested presidential election. Results are expected to be announced on Tuesday. Also, Iran's nuclear negations with the U.S. and five other countries ended in Baghdad with no breakthrough.

KWAME HOLMAN: The U.S. economy gave off more mixed signals today.

First-time claims for unemployment benefits dipped slightly last week, and durable goods orders increased a bit in April. But a key measure of business investment spending fell for a second straight month. The lack of clear-cut trends led to another choppy session on Wall Street. The Dow Jones industrial average gained 33 points to close above 12,529. The Nasdaq fell more than 10 points to close at 2,839.

Egyptians flocked to the polls for a second day of voting in their first freely contested presidential election. Among the main contenders are Mohammed Morsi of the Muslim Brotherhood and Ahmed Shafiq, the last prime minister under former President Hosni Mubarak. Results are expected on May 29. It's widely anticipated a runoff will be needed next month.

Iran's nuclear negotiations with the U.S. and five other countries ended in Baghdad today with no breakthrough. The Iranians insisted they have a right to enrich uranium. They complained world powers want to maintain tough economic sanctions until Iran gives up its nuclear ambitions.

On the other side, Catherine Ashton, the E.U. foreign policy chief, had this take on the two days of talks.

CATHERINE ASHTON, Foreign Policy high representative, European Union: It's clear that we both want to make progress and that there is some common ground. However, significant differences remain. Nonetheless, we do agree on the need for further discussion to expand the common ground. We will go back to respective capitals and consult.

KWAME HOLMAN: In Washington, Secretary of State Hillary Clinton said the six-nation bloc will try to narrow its differences with Iran in the next round of talks next month in Moscow.

Syrian government forces and the rebels fighting them have committed serious human rights abuses during the 14-month uprising. A U.N. investigation reached that conclusion today. It found government troops have killed entire families, while opposition forces kidnapped and tortured prisoners. The violence has continued despite U.N. attempts to broker a cease-fire.

A 33-year-old murder mystery in New York City now has led to an arrest. The victim was 6-year-old Etan Patz, who disappeared on his way to school in 1979. His case sparked the national drive to put the pictures of missing children on milk cartons.

Today, New York City Mayor Michael Bloomberg confirmed a suspect was picked up last night in New Jersey.

MICHAEL BLOOMBERG, mayor of New York: We have a suspect in custody who has made a statement to the NYPD implicating himself in the disappearance of Etan Patz 33 years ago. Let me, however, caution you that there is still a lot more investigating to do. The process will continue. We do things methodically, carefully, and we will see what develops.

KWAME HOLMAN: The suspect was identified as Pedro Hernandez. Police officials say he told investigators he suffocated the boy, wrapped his body in a bag, and put it in a box. Hernandez was being questioned further today.

Those are some of the day's major stories.

Fate of Eurozone: Back on the Brink?

Thu, 24 May 2012 18:06:00 EDT

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Economic divisions between France and Germany were reinforced Wednesday at a summit on Europe's debt crisis with austerity, promises of economic growth and a potential euro exit by Greece among the topics of open and vocal debate. Jeffrey Brown and The Economist's Zanny Minton discuss what's ahead for the eurozone.

JEFFREY BROWN: And here with me is Zanny Minton Beddoes, the economics editor for The Economist magazine.

Zanny, rather suddenly, there seems to be a lot of anxiety, even fear. Am I right?

ZANNY MINTON BEDDOES, The Economist: You're absolutely right.

Unfortunately, the sense of crisis is back and I would even say that the sense this whole euro project could fracture is back.

JEFFREY BROWN: That serious?

ZANNY MINTON BEDDOES: Yes, I think it's that serious.

If you remember, at the end of last year, the end of 2011, we had a similar moment of real fear in global financial markets. And then the European Central Bank came in and basically poured a trillion euros worth of liquidity into European banks.

And that calmed things in the beginning of this year for a couple of months. It led the Europeans to think -- to crow, in fact, that they have solved their crisis. But with hindsight, it turns out that that was, I don't know, an anesthetic, if you will, but that the underlying disease is still there and it's come back with a vengeance.

JEFFREY BROWN: But it came back almost through a political route, right? We had all these elections. And now it looks like political disarray, as much as economic problems.

ZANNY MINTON BEDDOES: Absolute -- political and economic.

I think there are three reasons why this real sense of crisis has come back. The first is it's political, and it's Greece. The Greek voters basically in their elections at the beginning of this month voted overwhelmingly for parties that wanted to renegotiate or rip up or not continue with the austerity package that they had agreed with the Europeans.

And they couldn't form a government. They're now having another election on June 17 and that's basically turned into what is going to be a referendum in effect on whether they want to stay in the euro or not. And so suddenly, from that, there's a fear that actually one of the 17 countries may leave or may be pushed out, really concerning many -- then considering others -- is that the beginning of, Greece goes, which goes then, Portugal or Spain?

So that's reason number one. Reason number two is that on the economic side, the recipe doesn't seem to be working. If you look at the Spanish economy, you have got huge unemployment, 50 percent youth unemployment, you have got a huge deficit, and the debt problems are getting worse.

And I think there's a growing concern that the current recipe isn't working and the disarray about what to do.

JEFFREY BROWN: All right, well, let me stop you on reason number two because it sounds like the two sides have formed, right, Germany, which we have heard for a long time. And now you have a representative from France now with the new president saying, wait a minute, there's another route.

Now, we just heard in the tape piece a suggestion of maybe of a middle or balanced approach, I think, the German foreign minister. Is there any -- are the two sides hardened here? Or is there a sense that there's some way else?

ZANNY MINTON BEDDOES: I think it depends what time frame you're talking about.

I think in the short term, there is some room for the two sides to come together. To caricature just a bit, the Germans think that austerity, budget-cutting is absolutely the essential thing. And the other side thinks that growth is really important.

And I think Germans are willing to say we will have some measures to boost growth alongside our austerity. And so I think what you will see is some short-term measures, some increase in the capital of the European Investment Bank, a fewest modest tinkerings to say we are going to have growth and austerity.

But there's an area where still a very big difference, which is the whole area of euro bonds and the whole area of to what extent do you need to take a big step now to create some kind of mutual fiscal. . .

JEFFREY BROWN: Which was on the table a while ago, at least raised, set aside, in the last year or so, but now you're saying is back potentially.

ZANNY MINTON BEDDOES: I think it's back because I think a lot of people have realized that in the medium term, the euro's future depends on having some greater movement toward some more fiscal union.

They need, if you will, a kind of Hamilton moment. They need to have someone mutual debt issued, firstly to give markets confident that they're really determined to stick with this project, secondly to allow indebted governments, the Italys of this world, some means of access to cheaper money, and thirdly to provide European banks with a safe asset, which is a euro-wide asset.

JEFFREY BROWN: Right. Now, I think I stopped you at reason number three.

Do you remember, reason number one was Greece and. . .

JEFFREY BROWN: Reason two was the economy and the Band-Aid.

ZANNY MINTON BEDDOES: Reason number three is politics and I think the growing sense that European voters are fed up and that European voters are voting for more extreme parties, they're voting against the establishment.

And this isn't just happening in Greece. This is happening across Europe. Even Angela Merkel for slightly different reasons lost in two important state elections in the past few weeks. So I think there's a sense that in a region whose economies are shrinking, where the economic outlook is looking darker, voters' patience with this current route is running out.

JEFFREY BROWN: And all of this means this thing that we sort of talked about and everybody said could never happen, a member leaving the euro, might -- I see people spinning out how it might happen and when it might happen.

ZANNY MINTON BEDDOES: Absolutely. And some point, the risk is that those kinds of things become self-fulfilling. If enough people can say it will happen, it will happen.

JEFFREY BROWN: And then the question, as you raised before, what impact, right, any domino effect that might happen, which is unknown.

ZANNY MINTON BEDDOES: Which is unknown.

And I think to hold the rest of the currency together, if Greece does leave, the others, the 16 that remain, will have to take a quantum leap towards greater integration, and they will have to do it much faster than the Germans now seem prepared to want to do.

JEFFREY BROWN: All right, Zanny Minton Beddoes of The Economist, thanks so much.

ZANNY MINTON BEDDOES: Thank you.

In Europe, Balancing Germany's Austerity Push With Hopes for Growth

Thu, 24 May 2012 18:03:00 EDT

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After an inconclusive meeting of European leaders in Brussels ended Wednesday, new data showed a worsening economic contraction throughout the continent. Jeffrey Brown reports.

JEFFREY BROWN: There was no clear way forward today for European leaders, as economic problems reached new crisis points. The continent's debt burden has now been joined by looming recession and deepening political divisions.

New data showed a worsening economic contraction throughout Europe today. The gloomy news came the morning after an inconclusive meeting of European leaders in Brussels. The summit reinforced the divisions between the two top eurozone economies, France and Germany, a main issue: how to balance Germany's push for budget austerity with the new French government's emphasis on economic growth.

GUIDO WESTERWELLE, German foreign minister: For the German, government austerity is not everything.

JEFFREY BROWN: In fact, Guido Westerwelle, the German foreign minister, acknowledged today a need for a balanced approach, including growth policies.

He echoed comments reportedly made behind closed doors in Berlin by Chancellor Angela Merkel. But Westerwelle said one proposal to ease the crisis, by issuing so-called euro bonds to lower interest rates in debt- laden nations, would make matters worse.

GUIDO WESTERWELLE: We think that we cannot solve a debt crisis by making it easier to take up new debts. And if we allow to make it easier to take up new debts, we do not solve the crisis. From our point of view, we increase the difficulties and the problems that we have.

JEFFREY BROWN: Left unsaid, euro bonds would mean higher interest rates in Germany, which has benefited greatly from its lower borrowing costs.

But Francois Hollande, the new president of France, in office just 10 days, has promoted the euro bond idea. He again stressed the need for growth as he headed into last night's meeting in Brussels.

FRANCOIS HOLLANDE, French president (through translator): We must work based on economic challenges, like how to bring growth back, on financial challenges, how to bring back liquidity, but also on the political challenges. What do we want to do together in Europe? What kind of project do we have?

JEFFREY BROWN: Hollande was joined by Spanish Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy. His nation is imperiled by its enormous debt, but it's largely the byproduct of a burst housing bubble, not public overspending, as in some other eurozone nations.

MARIANO RAJOY, Spanish prime minister (through translator): For Spain, the most urgent thing is that we need financing, we need liquidity, and we need sustainability for the debt. There are many countries which are making enormous efforts in order to control their public deficits and make structural reforms.

JEFFREY BROWN: And, as elsewhere, there is increasing public pushback in Spain, with unemployment at a crushing 25 percent. Miners went on strike today, and protesters gathered outside the parliament to denounce labor reform.

NEFTALI RODRIGUEZ, civil servant (through translator): This will put an end to all the workers' rights that have been fought for 30 years. It leaves us workers sold out under the power of businessmen.

JEFFREY BROWN: But the businessmen are not immune either. This shop owner is shutting down after 40 years and liquidating his stocks of fabric and carpeting.

MANUEL AGUIRRE, business owner (through translator): Since 2009, it has been a torture. We have got to a point when this is impossible. Not only we do not have any profits, but we just can't keep our activity, guaranteeing the salaries of our staff.

JEFFREY BROWN: It was announced yesterday that Spanish banks badly damaged by the housing bubble will undergo an extensive audit to ensure that they can survive. Banks in Greece saw a modified run on their holdings earlier this week, as their fate in the Eurozone was openly debated in Brussels and on the streets of Athens.

A once-unthinkable return to the traditional drachma currency was on many Athenians' minds.

MAN (through translator): I prefer euro to drachma.

MAN: Euro is for Merkel, not for Greeks.

JEFFREY BROWN: Whether the Greeks stay with the euro may now rest on the outcome of elections next month. They were mandated after voting this month failed to produce a government.

Iranian Nuclear Talks: Are Expectations Seriously Mismatched?

Wed, 23 May 2012 18:37:00 EDT

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Claiming its uranium enrichment is only for peaceful purposes, Iran made a counter-offer Wednesday to a proposal by the U.S. and other countries meant to curb production. Margaret Warner discusses the latest negotiations with former Iranian diplomat Seyed Hossein Mousavian and the Brookings Institution's Suzanne Maloney.

JUDY WOODRUFF: Reporter Steven Erlanger is in Baghdad covering the talks for The New York Times.

Steven Erlanger, thank you for speaking to us well into the evening there.

What are you hearing about these talks?

STEVEN ERLANGER, The New York Times: Well, we're hearing that they're not going wonderfully well. The six powers put down a proposal for the Iranians which they claimed would be a set of concrete agenda to really get to the heart of the most urgent problem with Iran, which is their enrichment to 20 percent of uranium.

And the problem with that, it's very close to bomb-grade, and it makes not just the Israelis nervous, but also the Saudis and the Gulfies. So the idea is to get Iran to suspend that enrichment and even export its stockpile of 20 percent in return for a few benefits. The problem is the Iranians at this point don't think the benefits are good enough, and they want sanctions lifted, which has been their push right along.

So they had a plenary session in the morning. They're now having bilaterals and we don't know whether it's going to come out well or not. One presumes it will be the beginning of a series of conversations. But at the moment, it's clear from the Iranian media and Iranian diplomats that they're not happy with what they have been offered in return.

JUDY WOODRUFF: Well, how does that square with what we were hearing yesterday from the IAEA director general, who was saying a decision had been made to conclude an agreement?

STEVEN ERLANGER: Well, he's talking about a different set of agreements which are in a way parallel, but not the same. I mean, the IAEA, which is the investigative agency of the United Nations, and the Nuclear Nonproliferation Treaty has lots of questions about Iran's past programs.

Did they make an effort to create a trigger for a nuclear weapon? How have they enriched? There are lots of questions. And Iran has been resisting answering some of those questions. It has refused to allow certain officials to be interviewed and certain military sites to be examined.

And Mr. Amano went to Tehran to try to work out a deal with Iran on how that would be done. I think the Iranians played it as cooperation, which they then have come here to say means the West should lift sanctions on them. This meeting really is about the intentions of the Iranian program, and it really isn't about what they may or -- may have done in the past.

JUDY WOODRUFF: Is it your sense that the six powers of the United States and these other countries are together in their approach at these talks?

STEVEN ERLANGER: Well, they are. They all agreed on this proposal that was put forth, and they all agreed on what benefits Iran might get in the short term if it agreed to move ahead step by step.

There is a difference that begins to emerge in how to keep pressure on Iran. The Russians have regularly said that sanctions are too painful and are the wrong way to go, and the Russians have refused in the Security Council at the U.N. to increase sanctions.

But the U.S. and the European Union are about to increase sanctions themselves quite considerably in the beginning of July with a ban on oil exports from Iran. And that hurts Iran, and Iran wants them stopped. But, in general, the powers are agreed on the tactics for now.

There's always a risk they may come apart later. But in the years of this six-power talk, in general, they have been able to agree on how to deal with each meeting. And they certainly agree on their goal, which is to try to ensure that Iran doesn't have a military nuclear program.

JUDY WOODRUFF: Steven Erlanger with The New York Times, we thank you for taking time to talk with us.

STEVEN ERLANGER: Thank you.

JEFFREY BROWN: Margaret Warner takes the story from there.

MARGARET WARNER: What to make of today's developments and the prospects for resolving the standoff over Iran's nuclear program?

For that, I'm joined by Suzanne Maloney, who dealt with Iran issues at the U.S. State Department from 2005 to 2007. She's now a senior fellow at the Brookings Institution. And Seyed Hossein Mousavian, a former Iranian diplomat, he was on the nuclear negotiating team that agreed to suspend enrichment in 2003, a deal later repudiated by Tehran. He was charged with espionage in 2007, but subsequently cleared. And he is now a visiting scholar at Princeton University.

Welcome to you both.

Mr. Mousavian, how serious -- what you make of today's developments? Is there a serious mismatch in expectations here?

SEYED HOSSEIN MOUSAVIAN, former Iranian official: First of all, I should give you a brief on what they agreed in Istanbul a month ago.

In Istanbul, they agreed to have a package as a safe -- face-saving solution. The principles of the package was to find a solution within the NPT, in the framework of NPT. The second principle they agreed was the reciprocity. The third principle they agreed was mutual confidence-building. And the fourth was a broad package to be implemented step by step.

The problem now today in Baghdad is that the package, the P-5 plus one, the big powers, they have proposed Iran, the different steps are not appropriate in reciprocation. It means they are asking Iran much more than they are prepared to reciprocate.

What Iranians, they want in the package is very clear. The bottom line for the Iranian is, first of all, to recognize the legitimate rights of Iran under NPT for peaceful nuclear technology, which includes enrichment. The second is removal of sanctions, even gradual removal.

And the third is to normalize the file on the -- at the United Nations.

MARGARET WARNER: All right, let me get Suzanne Maloney -- let me get Suzanne Maloney here, because you have put a lot on the table.

Does it sound to you like there's a serious mismatch of expectations here going into today's meeting, or is this just the sort of early negotiating jockeying for position?

SUZANNE MALONEY, Saban Center for Middle East Policy, Brookings Institution: I think what we're seeing right now is a sort of predictable pattern of high expectations, partially I think cultivated by some of the very positive news reports that we have seen over the past few weeks, meeting the reality of sitting across the table from. . .

MARGARET WARNER: You mean what the Iranians have been saying publicly?

SUZANNE MALONEY: Really, the fallout from the first round of talks in Istanbul was so positive on both sides, and there was the sense, as I think a U.S. official said anonymously in the press today, that there was a tailwind going into these meetings, that there was some confidence that the Iranians were finally willing to talk seriously about the nuclear issue, to actually approach these talks in a very businesslike and constructive fashion, that they had signaled through this gesture yesterday new openness to allowing IAEA inspectors into the Parchin site, that that might in fact be a positive signal that Iran was prepared to accept more transparency over the program.

So, for that reason, I think there may have been some inflated expectations out there. I would suggest that my sense from folks at the State Department has been that there's a fairly realistic appreciation of how difficult the position is at this stage, how tough it's going to be to get serious concessions from Iran, and how difficult the political position of the P-5 plus one, the world powers, will be, if Iran is, in fact, expecting serious mutual concessions.

Sanctions relief is just not on the table at this stage.

MARGARET WARNER: I want to get back to why.

Okay, but from -- Mr. Mousavian, from the Iranians' perspective, is the lifting of these current economic sanctions, like the fact that Iran is blocked from most now international banking networks, for instance, or the E.U. ban an Iranian oil imports about to come in, in July 1, is that sort of a nonnegotiable precondition for the Iranians, before Iran will give anything, even in this fairly preliminary stage on this enrichment of the high-grade uranium?

SEYED HOSSEIN MOUSAVIAN: No, what can be the maximum concession the P-5 plus one, they are requiring Iran -- or they can require Iran, first of all, is the maximum level of transparency on the nuclear program, including enrichment.

MARGARET WARNER: That's what Ms. Maloney was referring to. You mean -- and the IAEA agreement, tentative deal yesterday to allow IAEA access to some of these sites?

SEYED HOSSEIN MOUSAVIAN: Yes.

Already, Iran agreed with the IAEA on a new modality agreement, a war plan to address all ambiguities of the IAEA, including the possible military dimension issues. The agreement tentatively is reached and is ready to be signed.

Second is all assurances that Iranian nuclear program would remain forever peaceful and Iran would remain a non-nuclear weapons state. The proposal Iranians they have proposed includes all this. It means the maximum level of transparency, the maximum level of cooperation with the IAEA, even giving access to the IAEA to military sites and addressing all possible military dimension issues and all confidence-building measures the IAEA resolutions and the United Nations Security Council they want.

But, in response, the P-5 plus one is not ready for appropriate proportionate response. They are asking Iran. . .

MARGARET WARNER: I'm sorry, but let me. . .

MARGARET WARNER: Let me just ask Ms. Maloney why that is.

You said that that is a nonstarter for the U.S. and the other European powers to really suspend or delay some of these really serious economic sanctions. Why?

SUZANNE MALONEY: I think there's a bit of brinksmanship going on.

Right now, the Iranians are trying to give as little as possible and get as much as possible with respect to these sanctions, which have already been quite dramatic in their impact on both the overall economy and on the daily person's life in Iran.

From the U.S. side, there's a recognition that we are on the cusp of the most powerful sanctions going to full implementation in just another month. And so to pull back at this stage would be both strategically unwise and would have severe political consequences in an election year in which Iran is featuring quite dramatically in the back and forth between Democrats and Republicans.

MARGARET WARNER: Well, much to unfold.

Suzanne Maloney and Ambassador Mousavian, thank you both.

Iran Holds New Talks Over Curbing Nuclear Program

Wed, 23 May 2012 18:30:00 EDT

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Hoping to rein in Iran's uranium enrichment and prevent the production of nuclear weapons, the United States, Russia, China, Britain, France and Germany presented a proposal Wednesday that included unspecified "confidence-building" measures, according to State Department spokeswoman Victoria Nuland. Margaret Warner reports.

JEFFREY BROWN: Now, Iran and the world's major powers go back to the negotiating table over the Iranian nuclear program.

Judy Woodruff begins our coverage.

JUDY WOODRUFF: For the cameras at least, there were smiles among the diplomats who gathered in Baghdad today. Iran's top negotiator and the European Union's foreign policy chief were among those arriving for the latest talks. The same parties met last month in Istanbul, Turkey.

Today, the U.S., Russia, China, Britain, France, and Germany presented a proposal to rein in Iran's uranium enrichment and prevent any move to building nuclear weapons.

In Washington, State Department spokeswoman Victoria Nuland said the detailed proposal included unspecified "confidence-building" measures.

VICTORIA NULAND, State Department apokeswoman: What we are endeavoring to do is to lay out a path for Iran to demonstrate the peaceful intent. We will see how that goes, but, as we have said consistently, we need concrete actions.

JUDY WOODRUFF: Iran has said its program is only for peaceful purposes. It made a counteroffer today, apparently aimed at easing the bite of international economic sanctions.

A breakthrough appeared unlikely, but there were signs that some progress might be possible. On Monday, the head of the U.N. nuclear agency, the IAEA, Yukiya Amano, met with the Iranian negotiator, Saeed Jalili, in Tehran. As a result, Amano said a deal could be in the works to give U.N. inspectors access to critical Iranian sites, including the top-secret Parchin military complex seen here in a satellite image.

YUKIYA AMANO, director general, International Atomic Energy Agency: A decision was made by me and Mr. Jalili to reach agreement on the structured approach.

JUDY WOODRUFF: Amid the diplomacy, the threat of military action loomed in the background, in the form of possible airstrikes by Israel or the U.S. to destroy Iran's nuclear sites before any bomb can be built.

Greece, Spain Deeply Uncertain About Economic Futures

Wed, 23 May 2012 18:24:00 EDT

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As the eurozone's economic woes worsened Wednesday, European leaders gathered in Brussels -- bracing for the possibility that Greece will drop the euro. Spain is also on the brink of sliding from a recession into a depression. Jonathan Rugman and Lindsey Hilsum of Independent Television News report.

GWEN IFILL: European leaders gathered in Brussels today, as the eurozone's economic woes worsened, and they braced for the possibility that Greece will drop the euro. One of the most vulnerable E.U. nations is Spain, sliding from recession into depression as its banks teeter on the brink of collapse.

We have two reports from Independent Television News, beginning with Lindsey Hilsum in Spain.

LINDSEY HILSUM: On the streets of Madrid, they have a message for the leaders meeting in Brussels: Stop cutting and start promoting growth.

For them, the Spanish government's decision to recapitalize Bankia, the country's fourth largest lender, while reducing education spending by 20 percent, was the last straw.

Students and teachers are just the latest people to come out on strike in Spain. They say the government shouldn't be bailing out the banks while it's cutting education, because that will destroy the future of the country.

WOMAN: We have fought very hard for many, many years just to lose things just like that, just because of the government, just because of Europe, just because of the European bank. We don't like that.

LINDSEY HILSUM: With youth unemployment nearing 50 percent, students see no future in Spain.

So where will you go?

MAN: I don't know, Latin America somewhere, Brazil, Mexico, somewhere where it's going up, you know?

LINDSEY HILSUM: The leaning towers of Bankia dominate the Madrid skyline, but it's unlikely to be the only Spanish bank needing a bailout.

No one here's expecting a miracle from God, but many Spaniards would like a word with the Germans, whom they blame for forcing their government to persist with austerity measures.

IRENE LOZANA DOMINGO, Spain: Also, Germany has got a lot of profits from the euro. Because Spain was rich, we bought many things that were made in Germany. So if we go -- we are all linked. So, if we go to hell, they are coming with us.

LINDSEY HILSUM: The new town of Valdeluz, just north of Madrid, was built at the time of Spain's property boom. But then came the bust. Now it's one of a dozen ghost towns.

This was the Spanish dream, new developments, luxury apartments, the good life. But it was all on borrowed money. Now the developers have lost their investments, the banks are in crisis, and increasing numbers of Spaniards are homeless.

Maria Francisca and Jesus bought their apartment in 2004 when he was earning good money as a builder. But since he lost his job, they can't pay the mortgage. With their daughter and disabled son, they will soon be out on the street. The bank, once so friendly, now says it will repossess their apartment.

MARIA FRANCISCA CANO MUNOZ, Spain (through translator): At first, they were nice, and said, don't worry. You can pay at the end of the month to avoid interest. But when you can't pay at all, suddenly, you're a bad person and there's the door. Go.

LINDSEY HILSUM: One family amongst many. Every week, more go to the neighborhood advice center to ask how to avoid falling into poverty. But there are no clear answers. Europe's leaders may yet save Spain's banks, but no one is bailing out the victims.

GWEN IFILL: In Greece, the government remains in a state of political limbo, with the country's finances in turmoil and voters rebelling against E.U.-imposed austerity measures.

Jonathan Rugman of Independent Television News reports from the Greek town of Lavrio.

JONATHAN RUGMAN: Littering the hills around Lavrio are the silver mines which once financed the golden age of Athens, silver from which the very first drachma coins were cast some 2,500 years ago. The town's mining industry is long dead now, though the talk in Lavrio of returning to the drachma has only just begun.

Lavrio looks like a fairly typical Greek town entering the high season of summer, but scratch beneath the surface and you find a place deeply uncertain, both about the future and its place within the eurozone.

The harbor is brimming with uncharted charter yachts, tourism becalmed and confined to port in the worst season in 15 years. If the old men linger over a single coffee a lot longer now, well, their pensions have been cut by 30 percent.

As for unemployment, well, it is around 40 percent. And Christos in his early 20s can't even find a holiday job as a waiter.

CHRISTOS GOTSIS, Greece: No jobs, no money, so no life.

JONATHAN RUGMAN: Who do you blame for this crisis?

CHRISTOS GOTSIS: Greek government first, and then Germany.

JONATHAN RUGMAN: German-engineered austerity is blamed for this, too, the holiday homes abandoned and unfinished since financial boom turned to bust.

By a tumbledown shack, his family is too ashamed to let us enter. We find Giorgos, who lives here with his wife and five children. His electricity has been threatened, and three days ago his water was cut off, until the local Communist Party intervened, and he wants Europe to put an end to Greece's pain.

GIORGOS SIDIROPOULOS, Greece (through translator): I would just ask Europe to help poor people, to help them find work, and stop trying to take money away from people who don't have any.

JONATHAN RUGMAN: All over Lavrio are signs of support for the Syriza Party, radical leftists who campaign against austerity and who've polled more votes here than anyone else.

Athanasia Markouli will be voting for them again next month, because, she says, Greeks can no longer drink German's economic mix. As for the Eurozone pushing Greece out, well, they wouldn't dare.

ATHANASIA MARKOULI, Greece: They need us.

JONATHAN RUGMAN: Otherwise, what?

ATHANASIA MARKOULI: Otherwise, nothing. There be a problem. It's the whole of Europe.

JONATHAN RUGMAN: So you're in a powerful position to negotiate?

ATHANASIA MARKOULI: I think so. I think so.

JONATHAN RUGMAN: Lavrio seems caught between a rock and a hard place. Nobody we met wants to leave the euro, yet nobody accepts the Eurozone's austerity either. And choosing between the two, well, that's not a choice anyone wants to make.

GWEN IFILL: Europe's main stock indexes plunged more than 2 percent today, as the euro fell to its lowest point in nearly two years.

Egypt's Historic Election: 'Even the Most Jaded Were Moved'

Wed, 23 May 2012 18:04:00 EDT

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Across Egypt, at least 50 million people were eligible to choose from a field of 13 candidates in the country's first free presidential election. Gwen Ifill and McClatchy reporter Nancy Youssef discuss what the historic election means for Egypt's future.

GWEN IFILL: For more on today's historic election, we turn to Nancy Youssef, reporting from Cairo for McClatchy Newspapers.

I spoke to her a short while ago.

Nancy Youssef, good to see you.

So tell me what you struck you that you saw at the polls today?

NANCY YOUSSEF, McClatchy Newspapers: Well, I think the most remarkable thing was how unpredictable the selection.

At every polling station, we found different candidates in the lead for surprising reasons. In poor areas we visited in Cairo, people who we thought would have supported the Muslim Brotherhood candidate, Mohammed Morsi, instead said they supported Ahmed Shafiq, who was a regime prime minister, the last one under Mubarak, which suggests to us that in some areas, rather than having an Islamist state, what people are really seeking is security.

So we're at the end of day one and with no sense of who's in the lead, who's in second place and what's even really driving voters to the polls.

GWEN IFILL: Were the lines long? The lines were long, but was the turnout high? Do we know?

NANCY YOUSSEF: Well, the early estimates we have received from the election commission is 60 percent. It seems to be a guess at this point, which is lower than it was during the parliamentary elections.

So, in that sense, it was lower than expected. So we'll see if day two proves to be better. One of the differences between the parliamentary election and this one is that voters had the days off as holidays during the parliamentary elections. Today was a working day, and so a lot of people couldn't come out until after 4:00 or 5:00. And the polls closed at 9:00 today.

The government has declared tomorrow a holiday, so that may change voter turnout. We might see more people come out that couldn't come out today.

GWEN IFILL: Was the voting emotional for people who haven't had the chance to do this ever?

NANCY YOUSSEF: It was incredibly emotional for voters that we talked to. Even the most jaded were moved by the whole process. We saw people sort of tap the ballot as though -- for good luck and we saw people get emotional and cry. We saw people tear up.

Remember, this is a whole country that's never even had the option to consider choosing its own president and today had 13 candidates to choose from. You could see it in their faces, really just the shock that this day had come just 15 months after the revolution. And so you couldn't escape the emotions.

And they rose up. And sort of at every polling place we went to, no matter the candidate and no matter the circumstances, people who were doing very well post-revolution, but were still sort of shocked at the prospect of voting, and people who really had hoped that the revolution would improve their lives in some way had, in fact, suffered since the revolution, either through a loss of job or increased food prices and what not.

So every person I talked to had something to say about how moved they were about the process, about having the option to check off a name and drop the ballot box -- drop the ballot in the box themselves.

GWEN IFILL: Nancy, with the Muslim Brotherhood as one choice, the military ruling council as another choice, does this boil down to a vote for change vs. stability?

NANCY YOUSSEF: Yes and no.

I think it's a choice of where you want the country to go in the future. It's in a way a vote on the Muslim Brotherhood and how well you think they have or have not performed in the parliament. It's a vote on whether you think that Egypt has gone -- undergone too much change and has become too unstable or, in fact, hasn't done enough change and needs to do more.

There's a whole mosaic of factors that kind of come into play in terms of what's bringing this together. But, at the most basic level, yes, it's a choice between those who believe that Islam should be a guiding principle and that an Islamic candidate can bring about the kind of change that the revolution had promised, and those who think that too much change has happened in too short a period and that what the country needs right now is stability and a leader with experience who can guide it, so that the change that everybody sought 15 months ago actually happens in a productive, healthy way for the country.

GWEN IFILL: And, finally, Nancy, were there any irregularities reported in today's voting, like we saw during the parliamentary elections?

NANCY YOUSSEF: It was much better than the parliamentary elections. In those elections, there were -- there were delegates out for the various parties electioneering right in front of the polling stations. We didn't see it that nearly as much.

There were sort of peppered violations here and there. My own sense was in visiting -- I visited about a half-a-dozen polling centers today -- was that the biggest irregularity was that people didn't know that -- the judges in charge of elections, how to actually administer it.

And so each election was administered a little bit differently in each of the six places that I visited today. The other surprising thing that we saw is people just didn't know who to vote for. So many women I saw today, they kept asking and looking around to the election workers, and saying, who do I vote for, who do I vote for, and were just almost overwhelmed by the prospect of having the choice.

And so there was a lot of effort to make sure that election workers weren't in any way communicating with the voters, because that would have been a violation. Remember, there were delegates from each of the campaigns at polling centers, and all but one had people sitting there monitoring -- monitoring the process. So there seemed to be a vast improvement from the parliamentary elections.

GWEN IFILL: Nancy Youssef reporting from Cairo for McClatchy Newspapers, thanks so much.

NANCY YOUSSEF: Thank you.

GWEN IFILL: Online, you can view photos of Egypt's momentous vote today and an interview with a GlobalPost reporter in Cairo about how events unfolded. That's on our World page.

Millions in Egypt Cast Ballots in First Free Election

Wed, 23 May 2012 18:03:00 EDT

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Fifteen months after mass protests toppled the regime of President Hosni Mubarak, voters across Egypt went to the polls Wednesday for their first free and genuinely competitive presidential election. Election monitors said the first of two days of voting went smoothly. Gwen Ifill reports.

GWEN IFILL: All across Egypt, people did something today that they'd never done before, voting in a genuinely competitive election for president.

For some, it was a day to savor new freedoms. For others, there was skepticism about what comes next.

Millions of Egyptians waited hours in line for the chance to cast a history-making ballot. Voters went to the polls 15 months after mass protests toppled President Hosni Mubarak, who ruled Egypt for nearly 30 years. Election monitors said the first of two days of voting went smoothly.

MOHAMED FAYEK, vice president, National Council for Human Rights (through translator): We have received some complaints about the delay in opening some of the polling stations and about campaigning in front of the polling stations, but these were few, and we immediately contacted those responsible and put an end to these violations.

GWEN IFILL: Fifty million people were eligible to choose from a field of 13 candidates. They included figures from the Mubarak regime and leaders of the Islamist parties that dominated elections for parliament earlier this year.

Among the four main candidates, Mohammed Morsi of the Muslim Brotherhood, the oldest and largest Islamist group, many of his supporters favor installing a version of Islamic Sharia law.

AYAT ADBEL HAMID, Egypt (through translator): I believe that Egypt has to be an Islamic state that follows the Islamic Sharia, and those who refuse using the Sharia do not really understand it, which is why they are against following it.

GWEN IFILL: Another Islamist, Abdel-Moneim Abolfotoh, is considered a moderate, with support from secular liberals and minority Christians. The leading secular candidates include Mubarak's former prime minister, Ahmed Shafiq, who insisted he was his own man then and now.

AHMED SHAFIQ, Egyptian presidential candidate: I worked for myself. I worked for my family. I worked for the big family of Egypt, not for someone or for regime.

GWEN IFILL: Former Foreign Minister Amr Moussa is also a veteran of the Mubarak years, but says he firmly supports Egypt's turn to democracy.

AMR MOUSSA, Egyptian presidential candidate (through translator): This is a good start for the second republic, and if God wills it, the majority of votes will bring the right president to Egypt.

GWEN IFILL: Many of those votes were expected to be influenced by rising concerns about crime and the economy.

FATHEYA MOHAMED, Egypt (through translator): Regardless of the fact that Mubarak was corrupt, life was easier. Life was a lot cheaper.

GWEN IFILL: And no matter who wins, it remains unclear whether the losers will accept the outcome and whether the ruling military council will readily cede power. Voting lasts through tomorrow, with a runoff likely in mid-June and a winner announced June 21.

Egyptians Watch for Results, Signs of Presidential Vote Rigging

Wed, 23 May 2012 12:20:00 EDT

With this week's presidential election representing the end of the transition from a military to civilian government, many Egyptians will be watching not only the results but for a clean process as well.

Egyptians are voting in the first round of elections on Wednesday and Thursday for a number of reasons: the economy, security, and an end to military rule, said Erin Cunningham, GlobalPost's reporter in Cairo. But "the most crucial thing is people see Egypt moving forward [and] away from being ruled by a group of generals."

Overall, people are excited about the elections, she told us by phone. (Read her latest story on the lead-up to the elections.) "People are debating in the streets, there are posters everywhere.

"The last year and half has brought so many surprises for Egyptian politics," and people have resigned themselves to not being able to predict who will win or get the most votes in the first round, said Cunningham. "But they're really enthusiastic and I think more so than during the parliamentary elections, at least from what I'm seeing and hearing on the streets."

As for a repeat of the massive protests in Tahrir Square that led to then-President Hosni Mubarak's resignation, people are waiting to see if elections are fair before taking to the streets again, Cunningham said, adding that if Ahmed Shafiq, the prime minister under Mubarak, makes it to the second round and people believe the results are rigged to allow someone from the old regime to win, that might trigger protests as well.

Pre-election polls are unreliable because so many Egyptians are undecided, but some candidates have risen to the surface, including former foreign minister Amr Moussa, independent Islamist Abdel-Moneim Abolfotoh and the Muslim Brotherhood's candidate, Mohammed Morsi.

Cunningham said although the Islamists won "hands down" in last winter's parliamentary elections, they might not take the presidency. "A lot of people have grown wary of them in the time since they were elected, and people voted for the members of parliament for a lot different reasons [mainly local politics] than they're voting for a candidate for president," she said.

"For the presidency, people are taking pride in the fact that they're choosing a leader for the nation. And a lot of people have said that 'this isn't about me, this is about the entire country and how we're perceived abroad,'" she added.

If no candidate gets more than 50 percent of the vote, the top two candidates will go to a runoff on June 16 and 17.

Cunningham assessed the mood in Cairo for us in January, a year after Egypt's revolution started. On Wednesday's NewsHour, we'll have more on the presidential elections.

The NewsHour has a partnership with the international news website GlobalPost. View all of our World coverage and follow us on Twitter.

Egypt's Historic Presidential Election

Wed, 23 May 2012 11:24:00 EDT

Egyptians chose among old regime, Islamist and secular candidates in their first presidential election Wednesday and Thursday since President Hosni Mubarak's 30-year reign came to an end.

For Pakistanis, Violence Has 'Profound Impact' on Everyday Life

Tue, 22 May 2012 18:36:00 EDT

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Pakistani filmmaker and journalist Naziha Ali and Bushra Hyder, who has developed alternative teaching materials for use in Pakistani schools, offer a first-hand take on what's fueling extremism in their country and what should be done about it. Margaret Warner reports.

JUDY WOODRUFF: Next to Pakistan, where an upsurge in violence may have roots in schools and the media.

Margaret Warner has the story.

MARGARET WARNER: Across Pakistan, life is often interrupted by terrorist attacks and sectarian violence.

Last year alone, there were more than 600 bomb blasts. The Pakistani government says it's trying to fight extremism through military means and economic development. The United States is assisting with military aid and drone strikes to kill militant leaders, and by funding projects to boost the economy, civil society and education.

Recently, 12 Pakistani civic leaders, all women, came to Washington to meet with U.S. officials. Among them, Bushra Hyder is the founder and director of two schools in Northwestern Pakistan that seek to promote non-violence and tolerance. And Naziha Ali is a freelance journalist and documentary filmmaker in Karachi who's written widely on militant organizations.

I spoke to them at the Institute for Inclusive Security, a nonprofit group that promotes the role of women in conflict zones. They began by describing what it's like to live in the midst of so much violence.

NAZIHA ALI, journalist and documentary filmmaker: And the violence there is of all kinds, ethnic violence, sectarian violence, political violence.

And I know there are -- there are many people who will not step out of their homes every day before checking the news because they don't know where, what is happening where. So it impacts our lives in a very, very profound way on a daily level.

BUSHRA HYDER, school director: Imagine you meet a person in the morning and the news you get in the afternoon is that he's no more. So, of course, it's fearful. It's a really uncertain situation. But, still, we're hanging on.

MARGARET WARNER: Well, I want to ask you both from -- you both are doing very interesting, different things. From where you sit and from what you do, what do you think is fueling this violence?

BUSHRA HYDER: Actually, there isn't one reason. There are many, but we can say that it has been -- it's the way the curriculum is designed. It's the way the students are taught, and it's the wrong picture of -- or the misinterpretation of the Islamic concepts.

MARGARET WARNER: Can you give me some examples about the curriculum? You mean the textbooks?

BUSHRA HYDER: Yes, the textbooks. They are, like, biased, biased towards other religions, and they have content which is derogatory towards other religions and. . .

MARGARET WARNER: So it's derogatory of non-Islam?

BUSHRA HYDER: Yes, and other religions are not even talked about in a positive way. So, it's kind of giving intolerant or conveying intolerant teachings to the students.

MARGARET WARNER: But how does that lead actually to violence?

BUSHRA HYDER: Because children are becoming -- like, at young age, when they start thinking or they start reading about only wars that have been fought in Islam, and they are not talking about the peace, the love, the tolerance that the holy prophet, peace be upon him, showed in his own life.

So, naturally, when they're only hearing about people from other religions in a negative way, they are becoming more intolerant. They're becoming more aggressive towards the other groups and other religions.

MARGARET WARNER: So who's providing these textbooks? Where do they come from?

BUSHRA HYDER: They're provided by the government to the government schools, but they are written according to certain common policies. And the private schools have to use the same books also.

MARGARET WARNER: And Naziha Ali, what about in the world you live, media?

NAZIHA ALI: Well, I think, well, the media certainly does play a role in fueling an atmosphere that does lead to extremism.

The industry, the media industry is a very youthful industry. You have a lot of very, very young journalists. The average age of the journalist today is 23. Ten years ago, it was 40-plus. So I think that is a -- has a major role to play in how news is disseminated. Like, channels -- for instance, if there's a bomb blast or there's a terrorist incident, channels don't -- instead of getting their own facts and verifying them, they look at what other channels are saying.

And if another channel has got casualty figures that are way higher, they will go with that, simply because it's -- you know, it's more dramatic.

MARGARET WARNER: Don't the editors provide any kind of professional or moderating influence?

NAZIHA ALI: In some cases, editors do exercise a moderating influence, but the de facto editor is really the owner.

So there's a lot of interference in editorial policy. And they're driven by their own biases. And it's -- that's why it's a very profit-driven industry. There's a mad scramble for ratings, and journalistic ethics be damned most of the time.

MARGARET WARNER: What are you doing specifically to try to combat radicalization, say in the school that you run?

BUSHRA HYDER: We started having these bomb blasts on a daily basis, so, naturally, my children were affected. And after these incidents, the children were becoming really aggressive and they were really angry.

And in their art classes, they started drawing bombs and victims and dead bodies and ambulances. They were having relatives being killed. And some of them were becoming orphans. And, actually, psychologically, most of my students were affected.

So what I did, I started counseling sessions with them. And then I started peace education, which was a comparatively new idea and concept in Pakistan. And mine was the first school in Peshawar which started this peace education. And in that, we started having classes and small activities of how to be tolerant towards others.

MARGARET WARNER: Naziha, what about for you and your work? Are there ways in which you're trying to counteract what you see as this sort of sensationalized media coverage?

NAZIHA ALI: The media is very incident-driven. They will cover, you know, incidents of terrorism, but they won't look at what is actually fueling that, what is causing it.

So there's no discourse on the causes of extremism. And we have already started working on that. We have had a program discussing the impact of extremism on women and children, a TV program. And now we are working on another TV program to discuss the changes, the reforms that are needed in the education curricula.

MARGARET WARNER: What you all are describing sounds like a very Pakistan-rooted problem in the culture and cultural influences. You're here in Washington meeting with all these people. What can the U.S. do to help change those cultural influences?

BUSHRA HYDER: Actually, the U.S. government is sending a lot of money to Pakistan. But, unfortunately, it's not reaching the right people and it's not going in the right direction.

NAZIHA ALI: I think one thing the U.S. can do is to make sure it talks to the people who are actually being affected, rather than just talking to policy-makers in Pakistan, so that you have a more nuanced understanding of what's actually happening on the ground.

And, please, talk to women in Pakistan. Treat women as a very critical resource, because they have a kind of influence that men probably don't.

MARGARET WARNER: Now, in the last two or three years, the U.S. has been using intensified drone strikes to try to take out at least senior terrorist leaders. Is that having an impact?

NAZIHA ALI: Well, I will ask you, do you perceive the radicalism in Pakistan is increasing or decreasing? I think the answer is that it's increased. So I would say that the strategy isn't working.

BUSHRA HYDER: There's a hospital in front of my school, and I usually take my students there to visit the wounded, and these are the wounded men and children who have been victims of drone attacks and extremist activities.

MARGARET WARNER: So both? Both the victims of terrorist attacks and of U.S. drone strikes?

BUSHRA HYDER: Yes.

The idea is not to tell them that this is something good, or just to make them feel sick or ill, but I want them to understand how can hatred affect people. And when they come back to the school, they discuss what they have seen in the hospitals. And that is like -- they then decide they didn't want to be hit by these drones or these extremist bomb blasts. They want to have more peaceful attitudes towards others.

MARGARET WARNER: But, bottom line, you both are saying that this level, this continuing violence in Pakistan isn't going to change unless these cultural influences are changed. Is that right?

BUSHRA HYDER: Yes.

You know what? The surprising thing and interesting thing is that, even in Pakistan, there is no public discourse regarding extremism. We only discuss the effects. But we are not talking about or not addressing the root causes and how are we going to tackle these extremist activities.

MARGARET WARNER: That's a very tall order, to change these cultural influences, isn't it?

NAZIHA ALI: It may be a tall order, I agree. But the underlying fact is that people in Pakistan want to live in peace.

MARGARET WARNER: Well, Bushra Hyder and Naziha Ali, thank you both for your very important work, and best of luck with it.

BUSHRA HYDER: Thank you.

NAZIHA ALI: Thank you.

News Wrap: U.S. Ambassador to Afghanistan Crocker Stepping Down

Tue, 22 May 2012 18:07:00 EDT

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In other news Tuesday, U.S. Ambassador to Afghanistan Ryan Crocker is stepping down this summer from his post a year early for health reasons. Also, Iran and the International Atomic Energy Agency are close to allowing inspections of key Iranian sites, according to U.N. nuclear agency chief Yukiya Amano.

KWAME HOLMAN: The U.S. ambassador to Afghanistan, Ryan Crocker, is stepping down from his post a year early for health reasons. The announcement today said Crocker will leave in mid-summer. He came out of retirement in July to take the job in Kabul after having served as ambassador to Iraq.

In Washington, the State Department spokeswoman underscored Crocker's decision wasn't about policy differences.

VICTORIA NULAND, State Department spokeswoman: He wanted to make it clear that this shouldn't in any way be seen as a lessening of his personal commitment and our national commitment, obviously, to Afghanistan. If you got a chance to see the fuller statement that he put out to his embassy and the larger ISAF community, I think his heart will always be a little bit in Afghanistan.

KWAME HOLMAN: The president now will have to nominate a replacement for Crocker. In the interim, James Cunningham, currently serving under Crocker in Kabul, will become acting ambassador.

Iran and the U.N. nuclear agency were said to be close to agreement today to allow inspections of key Iranian sites. The head of the U.N. agency, Yukiya Amano, spoke after meeting with Iran's chief negotiator, Saeed Jalili. He said he expects to sign a deal soon, once some remaining issues are worked out.

YUKIYA AMANO, director general, International Atomic Energy Agency: The decision was made by me and Mr. Jalili to reach agreement on the structured approach. Mr. Jalili elaborated that the existing difference will not be the obstacle for agreement.

KWAME HOLMAN: Amano said the agreement would give inspectors access to the top-secret Parchin military complex. Tomorrow, Iran resumes nuclear talks with representatives of the U.S. and five other nations. They will meet in Iraq.

In Egypt, five police officers were sentenced today to 10 years in prison for killing protesters during last year's political uprising. They'd been convicted in absentia, and could yet qualify for new trials. But the convictions themselves were a rarity. More than 800 protesters were killed in the demonstrations that ousted President Hosni Mubarak. Their families say authorities have made only token attempts to bring the killers to justice.

Greece may be considering dropping out of the euro currency. That word came late today from a former prime minister, and it quickly erased Wall Street's gains for the day. The Dow Jones industrial average ended with a loss of a point to close above 12,502. The Nasdaq fell eight points to close at 2,839.

Those are some of the day's major stories.

Pakistani Women Counter Country's Violence With Textbooks, TV Shows

Tue, 22 May 2012 13:46:00 EDT

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Pakistan is experiencing a surge in many types of violence, and some of the women working to counteract it place some of the blame on the country's schools.

Naziha Ali, a journalist and documentary filmmaker in Karachi, Pakistan, said the violence in her home city has increased of late. (Read more about Karachi's challenges.) "The violence there is of all kinds: ethnic violence, sectarian violence, political violence," Ali said. "And I know there are many people who will not step out of their homes every day before checking the news because they don't know what is happening where."

Part of the problem stems from what children are taught in some schools, said Bushra Hyder, director of the Qadims Lumiere School and College in Peshawar in northern Pakistan near the border with Afghanistan.

The students learn a misinterpretation of Islamic concepts, she said, and are taught derogatory things about other religions. "When they're only hearing about people from other religions in a negative way, they are becoming more intolerant [and] more aggressive towards the other groups and other religions," Hyder said.

The two women, who are part of the Amn-o-Nisa (Women and Peace) Coalition, said their group is working on making television programs that will demonstrate the impact of extremism on women and children and how school curricula can be changed to counteract it.

Hyder encouraged countries that want to help, including the United States, to work with women in Pakistan, which is known to have a patriarchal society. "It may sound contradictory to what everybody assumes, but women do have very subtle and a very, very far reaching impact within families," she said. "So you must talk to women who are working on peace and working on moderating extremism." (Read a profile of a group helping to empower women in Pakistan.)

Watch the full interview on Tuesday's NewsHour. View all of our World coverage and follow us on Twitter.

After NATO Leaves, Will Afghan Forces Be Ready?

Mon, 21 May 2012 18:38:00 EDT

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Judy Woodruff speaks with former Ambassador to the European Union James Dobbins and retired Col. David Lamm about NATO's exit plans coming out of this week's summit in Chicago and whether Afghan forces are ready to absorb security responsibilities once most foreign troops leave in 2014.

JUDY WOODRUFF: For more, we turn to two men with extensive experience dealing with Afghanistan. Ambassador James Dobbins was a career diplomat serving in a number of conflict zones, including Afghanistan. He's now the director of RAND's International Security and Defense Policy Center. And Ret. Col. David Lamm was the chief of staff to the Combined Forces Command in Afghanistan in 2004 and 2005. He's now at the National Defense University.

Gentlemen, thank you both for being here.

Ambassador Dobbins, to you first. This NATO meeting, how does it affect events in Afghanistan?

JAMES DOBBINS, director, International Security and Defense Policy Center Director, RAND Corporation: Well, I think the NATO meeting, it was well prepared. There weren't any big surprises.

It did confirm a course that NATO has been on. It clarified somewhat the schedule for turning combat responsibilities over to the Afghans. It affirmed an intention to meet the costs of Afghan national security forces well beyond 2014. And it affirmed that NATO and the United States would remain there militarily in non-combat roles beyond that.

It left uncertain exactly how much each state is going to contribute. And it certainly left uncertain what kind of forces they would retain beyond 2014.

JUDY WOODRUFF: Col. Lamm, how do you size up the contribution or not of this meeting?

COL. DAVID LAMM (RET.), U.S. Army: Well, I think, as the ambassador pointed out, they've affirmed a number of things. But the devil is in the details here.

Exactly what does the troop footprint of ISAF look like after 2014 into '15, particularly the enablers, intelligence, aviation, medical, support? All of these things that up to this point the Afghans have not provided for themselves are going to have to be provided. And in fact the cost of just the enablers, I think, would exceed the $1.4 billion -- the $4.1 billion that the pledge is for the ANSF over the period for each year. So a really difficult -- a lot of details to be worked out still.

JUDY WOODRUFF: What about the timetable itself? Does that seem clear now coming out of this meeting, the withdrawal timetable?

COL. DAVID LAMM: I think the timetable is very clear. But the problem that Gen. John Allen will have now is how he executes that timetable and how quickly we can get the Afghan national security forces, both army and police, to function as an integral national body.

JUDY WOODRUFF: Well, let's talk about that. How ready are the Afghan -- the government, the military, the police, how ready are they, will they be by 2014?

JAMES DOBBINS: Well, and as President Obama said, they're never going to be ready until they're thrown in the pool and told sink or swim, that as long as they remain dependent on us, they're going to be dependent.

And so it's only by essentially forcing a level of independence and autonomy that they're going to develop the skills necessary to survive without the large American and NATO presence. They're not ready in many respects. On the other hand, they're much more numerous than their opponents. They're much better equipped than their opponents.

JUDY WOODRUFF: Meaning the Taliban.

JAMES DOBBINS: Than the Taliban.

And they're going to be receiving substantial American and allied support for what now amounts to 14 years from now.

JUDY WOODRUFF: Col. Lamm, how do you see their -- the readiness of the Afghan forces?

COL. DAVID LAMM: Well, I tend to agree with the ambassador, with one major caveat.

And that is, from the aspect of logistical support, turning this over very quickly to the Afghans by 2014 is going to be very difficult. I think there will be a long period of time where coalition forces -- and read into that U.S. forces -- are going to have to do that, aviation, close air support, all. . .

JUDY WOODRUFF: You mean after 2014?

COL. DAVID LAMM: I believe so, yes, certainly after 2014.

JUDY WOODRUFF: But combat troops will be out?

COL. DAVID LAMM: But, remember, if you're a support personnel and you're driving a truck on the ground or you're flying a helicopter in Afghanistan, I think even President Karzai would mention the fact that even if you're a support troop, you will be engaged in combat.

JUDY WOODRUFF: But, Ambassador Dobbins, you don't sound as concerned about the long-term ability of Afghan forces to secure themselves.

JAMES DOBBINS: Well, I am concerned.

But I think, you know, there's two transitions that take place in 2014. One is the transition from NATO-led to Afghan-led combat operations. And the other is the transition from Karzai-led to somebody else-led Afghan government.

I don't think the Afghan army is going to run away in 2014, but I think that there's -- I think the bigger risk is that the center begins to disintegrate, that you no longer have a national leader who, despite all his failings and all his shortcomings, continues to enjoy very substantial support across all of the sectarian groups in Afghanistan.

JUDY WOODRUFF: But you're talking about the political leadership of the country.

JAMES DOBBINS: Yes.

JUDY WOODRUFF: And the effect you're saying that would have on the military and the security?

JAMES DOBBINS: Right. In other words, an army is only as good as the level of political support, oversight that it receives.

JUDY WOODRUFF: Is that what your concern is?

COL. DAVID LAMM: My concern as well is that what happens as the political center begins to erode is that the Afghan army and its security forces will revert to what they have done for hundreds of years.

And they will protect local interests, tribal interests again. But the problem will be is how well they're able to function at the behest of the central government.

JUDY WOODRUFF: As a national force.

COL. DAVID LAMM: As a national force. That's right.

JUDY WOODRUFF: What about that on that point, Ambassador Dobbins?

JAMES DOBBINS: Well, I think it's a legitimate concern. It's not a prediction that this is going to happen.

But I think that, as I said, the larger risk is not that these forces will run away. It's that the center of gravity in the country will erode under the pressures of selecting a new leadership in a country that hasn't really had peaceful transitions of government in its history. So I think we need to follow that as closely as we do, the training and equipping of the Afghan national security forces, which frankly have almost monopolized our attention over the past several years.

JUDY WOODRUFF: And how much, Col. Lamm, is Pakistan a concern in all of this? Because this agreement over reopening the supply routes, it does now appear they're on the verge of an agreement after not being able to work one out for some months. But in terms of this -- of being able to determine the future of Afghanistan, what role does Pakistan play?

COL. DAVID LAMM: Pakistan's role is huge.

And I think everybody in Washington and our coalition partners realize that. It is the place where the relative safe havens are set up. At the same time, supplying Afghanistan, as you mentioned, I'm not sure how close we are to a deal to reopen the ground logistical routes into Afghanistan from Karachi up in through into Afghanistan.

Those costs are on the margins about six times more expensive to come through the north than they are to move up through Pakistan.

JUDY WOODRUFF: Which has been the most recent. . .

COL. DAVID LAMM: Which has been the most recent situation.

JUDY WOODRUFF: Ambassador Dobbins, just finally, how do you see the role of Pakistan in all of this?

JAMES DOBBINS: Well, I think a successful negotiation to reopen the supply route simply brings us back to where we were three or four months ago, which is a very unsatisfactory position.

It's one in which the Pakistanis are both our allies and are to a considerable degree operating against us, in they're allowing, they're acquiescing in the operations of insurgents in their country operating against us. We're, on the other hand, conducting military strikes on their territory over their objections.

So putting aside this particular issue really only advances us, you know, in a very marginal way toward some real understanding with Pakistan over the -- Afghanistan's future.

JUDY WOODRUFF: Nothing simple about this one.

Ambassador James Dobbins, Col. David Lamm, we thank you both.

COL. DAVID LAMM: Thank you.

JAMES DOBBINS: Thank you.

Obama Stresses Afghan Stability and Exit Plan at NATO Summit

Mon, 21 May 2012 18:34:00 EDT

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At the NATO Summit Monday, President Obama emphasized the importance of a stable Afghanistan, and of phasing out most foreign forces by the 2014 deadline. Judy Woodruff reports.

GWEN IFILL: NATO's exit plan from Afghanistan moves a bit closer to reality.

Judy Woodruff has the story.

JUDY WOODRUFF: The world leaders who gathered in Chicago this morning, discussing the future of NATO's commitment to Afghanistan, were welcomed by the Windy City's most prominent citizen.

President Obama renewed his pledge to draw down international forces known as ISAF while bolstering the Afghan military and police.

PRESIDENT BARACK OBAMA: This will be another step toward Afghans taking full lead for their security as agreed to by 2014 when the ISAF combat mission will end.

JUDY WOODRUFF: The president thanked the Central Asian nations and Russia for assistance in ensuring supply routes into Afghanistan, but he pointedly omitted any mention of Pakistan.

The Pakistani president, Asif Ali Zardari, had been invited to the summit at the last minute, as the U.S. tried to negotiate the reopening of vital supply routes from Pakistan. They have been closed since last fall, when an American attack mistakenly killed 24 Pakistani troops along the border.

Mr. Obama met with Zardari today on the summit's sidelines, but a new accord remained elusive.

BARACK OBAMA: We're actually making diligent progress on it. I don't want to paper over real challenges there. There's no doubt there have been tensions between ISAF and Pakistan, the United States and Pakistan over the last several months. I think they are being worked through both military and diplomatic channels.

JUDY WOODRUFF: The president had welcomed Afghan President Hamid Karzai to the summit on Sunday.

HAMID KARZAI, president of Afghanistan (through translator): The partnership that we signed a few weeks ago in Kabul has turned a new page in our relations. And the new page is a page of two sovereign countries working together for the mutual interests.

JUDY WOODRUFF: The two men signed that long-term strategic agreement just three weeks ago in Kabul.

The Chicago summit was supposed to ensure financial assistance for the Afghan police and army. The U.S., the Afghans and non-NATO countries planned to put up a combined $2.8 billion per year. They sought another $1.3 billion from the allies, but that fund-raising effort came up well short of its goal.

It was also unclear how many NATO nations would stay in Afghanistan and for how long. On Sunday, the new French president, Francois Hollande, reaffirmed plans to extract his nation's 3,400 combat troops one year earlier than planned.

FRANCOIS HOLLANDE, French president (through translator): It was a pledge I made to the French people. I explained it to President Obama and I told my colleagues that it wasn't a negotiable issue, that it was a matter of French sovereignty, and each one of them understood it well.

JUDY WOODRUFF: Whether a residual French training force stays in Afghanistan remained to be seen. For its part, the Taliban seized on the French announcement, saying on its Web site: "We call upon all the other NATO member countries to avoid working for the political interests of American officials and answer the call of your own people by immediately removing all your troops from Afghanistan."

And in the streets of Chicago, demonstrators rallied for a third day to denounce the war and demand withdrawal. An outbreak of violence yesterday resulted in dozens of arrests. But for the most part, the protests were peaceful. And they came as a clear majority of Americans now say in public opinion polls the war is no longer worth fighting.

News Wrap: Suicide Bomb Kills Dozens in Yemen's Capital

Mon, 21 May 2012 18:10:00 EDT

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In other news Monday, a powerful suicide bomb exploded in the capital of Yemen, killing at least 96 soldiers and wounding more than 200. Also, the ongoing violence in Syria again has spilled over to neighboring Lebanon.

KWAME HOLMAN: A powerful suicide bomb exploded in the capital of Yemen today, killing 96 soldiers and wounding more than 200. It came amid a brewing U.S.-Yemeni war on al-Qaida's chapter in the country.

Sirens blared in the Yemeni capital of Sanaa as emergency vehicles sped to the scene of the thunderous blast. Hundreds of soldiers had gathered near the presidential palace for a military parade rehearsal when a person in uniform detonated a belt of explosives.

LT. ABDEL HAMID BAGHASH, Yemeni security official: (through translator): This is the work of al-Qaida. It is clear that this is their work. They did this.

KWAME HOLMAN: And within hours, al-Qaida of the Arabian Peninsula made that claim. It said the targets included Yemen's defense minister, who was present, but unhurt. The militants said the bombing was retaliation for a recent army offensive to recapture key towns in the South.

Al-Qaida fighters gained ground there during last year's uprising that ousted former President Ali Abdullah Saleh. In a warning today, the al-Qaida group promised more attacks unless the army pulls back. It said, "What happened today is but the start of a jihad project in defense of honor and sanctities."

Even before the Yemeni army's offensive, the U.S. stepped up a drone aircraft campaign against AQAP. Its leader, Anwar al-Awlaki, was killed in a missile strike last fall. And earlier this month, another strike killed Fahd al-Quso, believed responsible for the bombing of the USS Cole in 2000.

Two weeks ago, FBI Director Robert Mueller warned the group is committed to high-profile attacks against the U.S.

ROBERT MUELLER, FBI director: Meanwhile, al-Qaida affiliates, especially al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula, represent the top counterterrorism threat to the nation. AQAP has attempted several attacks on the United States, Including the failed Christmas Day airliner bombing in 2009 and the attempted bombing of U.S.-bound cargo planes in 2010.

KWAME HOLMAN: Mueller spoke after U.S. officials said a Saudi double agent had disrupted a plot to blow up a U.S.-bound airliner.

All this comes just three months after Yemen's new president, Abd-Rabbu Mansour Hadi, took office. He promised the families affected by today's attack the country's armed forces would become tougher and more determined in pursuing terrorists.

The ongoing violence in Syria has spilled over to neighboring Lebanon again. Supporters and opponents of the Syrian government fought overnight, after a leading Sunni Muslim cleric was killed. This morning, charred cars and motorcycles littered the streets of Beirut. At least two people were killed in the fighting.

China's state-controlled media today played down the departure of Chen Guangcheng, saying most Chinese are not interested. The blind dissident arrived in New York City on Saturday, ending more than a month of diplomatic tension. His wife and two children came with him. Other relatives stayed behind. Chen escaped from house arrest in his Chinese village last month, and briefly took refuge at the U.S. Embassy in Beijing.

The lone figure to go to prison for blowing up Pan Am Flight 103 over Lockerbie, Scotland, was buried today in his native Libya. The attack killed 270 people in 1988. Abdel Basset al-Megrahi died Sunday, nearly three years after being released from custody in Britain.

We have a report narrated by Bill Neely of Independent Television News.

BILL NEELY: A simple wooden coffin for the man convicted of one of the most sophisticated and deadly bombings in history, no hero's burial for Abdel Basset al-Megrahi. Libyans would rather forget him. He was Gadhafi's man, so no state funeral, less than 100 mourners here to lay to rest the only man ever convicted of the Lockerbie bombing.

Megrahi's secrets went with him to the grave. The full truth about Lockerbie is buried too. Megrahi, who died of cancer, had always protested his innocence. His brother had a new message for the bereaved of the Lockerbie bomb.

MOHAMMED AL-MEGRAHI, brother of Abdel Basset al-Megrahi: Only one thing I have to tell them, that (INAUDIBLE) told me that he was the passenger 271.

BILL NEELY: He was passenger 271. He too was a victim. No one believes he acted alone to do this. Scottish prosecutors are confident a new Libyan government might help secure more convictions.

FRANK MULHOLLAND, lord advocate of Scotland: I think that they are determined to do what they can to bring the others to justice that were involved in this appalling crime.

BILL NEELY: For many, this man holds the key, Abdullah Senussi, Libya's former intelligence chief, now under arrest.

BERT AMMERMAN, brother of Lockerbie Victim: He knows the truth. He knows who was involved. He also knows what countries were involved. It is imperative that the United Kingdom and the United States do aggressive interrogation of Senussi to get the truth.

BILL NEELY: It was the worst crime on British soil, mass murder. Yet still the unanswered questions persist. Megrahi is dead. The mystery of Lockerbie is not.

KWAME HOLMAN: Al-Megrahi was 60 years old.

A Florida man's twins won't get his Social Security benefits because they were conceived artificially after he died. The U.S. Supreme Court issued a unanimous decision today. It cited Florida's inheritance law, which bars benefits in such cases. The court also agreed to hear a closely watched case involving surveillance of overseas communications.

For analysis of the court's actions from Marcia Coyle of The National Law Journal, visit our Politics page.

Wall Street ended a series of losing sessions on new signals that China will try to boost its economy. The Dow Jones industrial average gained 135 points to close at 12,504. The Nasdaq rose 68 points to close at 2,847.

The gains didn't extend to Facebook. The social media giant lost 11 percent in its second day of being a publicly traded company.

The head of the Nuclear Regulatory Commission announced his resignation today, after a rocky three-year tenure. Gregory Jaczko was credited with advancing safety for the nation's nuclear reactors. But his fellow commissioners accused him of acting like a bully and creating a difficult work environment. Jaczko denied the accusations.

A federal health advisory panel is sticking with its advice that healthy men shouldn't get routine screenings for prostate cancer. The U.S. Preventive Services Task Force found again that PSA blood tests often lead to unnecessary treatment of relatively harmless tumors. The group initially proposed that medical guidance last fall, but it drew widespread protests in the medical community.

Robin Gibb, one of the brothers who made up the Bee Gees and defined the disco era, has passed away. He died Sunday in London after a long fight with cancer. Gibb and his brothers, Maurice and Barry, began performing in the 1960s. But their greatest fame began in 1977 with the soundtrack for "Saturday Night Fever" starring John Travolta. The album served as a turning point in popular music, ushering in the dance music era. Robin Gibb was 62 years old and was the second Bee Gee to die. Maurice Gibb died of intestinal problems in 2003.

Those are some of the day's major stories.

NATO Tensions: Inside and Outside

Mon, 21 May 2012 16:04:00 EDT

As world leaders struggle to work out details of an exit strategy from Afghanistan, police pushed back hundreds of protesters who were trying to reach the site of the NATO summit in Chicago this week.

Within the summit's walls, President Obama spoke of the need for continued support of the NATO mission in Afghanistan until most troops leave by 2014. He is also seeking $1.3 billion in assistance from allies toward the estimated $4.1 billion cost to maintain Afghan forces after 2014.

At Monday's International Security Assistance Force in Afghanistan (ISAF) meeting, President Obama outlined the benchmarks for wrapping up the mission:

Today, we'll decide the next phase of the transition -- the next milestone. We'll set a goal for Afghan forces to take the lead for combat operations across the country in 2013 -- next year -- so that ISAF can move to a supporting role. This will be another step toward Afghans taking full lead for their security as agreed to by 2014 when the ISAF combat mission will end.

Today is also an opportunity to ensure our hard-won progress is preserved. The Strategic Partnership Agreement that President Karzai and I signed in Kabul ensures that as Afghans stand up they will not stand alone. Today, we can agree on NATO's long-term relationship with Afghanistan beyond 2014, including our support of Afghan security forces.

Retired Army Col. David Lamm, who was the chief of staff at coalition headquarters in Afghanistan from 2004 to 2005, told deputy foreign affairs editor Daniel Sagalyn that Western and NATO member countries don't have the best track record for fulfilling pledges to Afghanistan.

Since 2006, the international community has pledged more than it actually delivers, especially since there are no enforcement mechanisms for pledges, Lamm said.

The Afghan government, whose revenue hovers at about $2 billion, actually needs about $12 billion to sustain the army and police -- the difference of which will have to come from pledges, which don't appear likely to come to fruition, he said.

Another hurdle at the summit is Pakistan's refusal to reopen its NATO supply routes to Afghanistan. Despite Pakistani President Asif Ali Zardari's last-minute invitation to the NATO summit, an agreement appeared elusive.

Pakistan cut off the supply routes after U.S.-Afghan coalition forces fired upon two Pakistani military checkpoints near the Afghan border on Nov. 26, killing 24 Pakistani soldiers. Both sides said they were fired upon first. The Pakistani government is seeking a public apology for the incident.

The U.S. commander in Afghanistan, Gen. John Allen, told Reuters he was confident a deal would be struck eventually, but "whether it's in days or weeks, I don't know." (Read Reuters' full story.)

We'll have more of what came out of the summit on Monday's NewsHour. View all of our World coverage and follow us on Twitter.

NATO Summit Struggles

Mon, 21 May 2012 14:14:00 EDT

President Obama sought continued military and monetary support for the mission in Afghanistan at the NATO summit in Chicago in May 2012, as protesters sparred with police outside the site.

USAID Administrator: Food Security a 'Grand' But 'Achievable' Goal

Fri, 18 May 2012 18:17:00 EDT

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President Obama outlined Friday a private-public partnership to work on global poverty issues ahead of the Group of Eight summit in Camp David this weekend. Ray Suarez and USAID Administrator Rajiv Shah discuss the initiative to lift millions out of poverty and hunger through farming partnerships.

MARGARET WARNER: And we turn to a new plan to help hunger in sub-Saharan Africa.

Suarez has that story.

RAY SUAREZ: Food security, getting enough food to the world's poorest people, is on the agenda this weekend as President Obama meets with other world leaders at the G8 summit in Camp David.

Across the African continent, food shortages drive instability, refugee flows, and armed conflict in places like Somalia, Kenya, Darfur, South Sudan and Ethiopia, among others.

Today, President Obama outlined a private-public partnership to work on global poverty issues and discussed plans to include four African leaders at the G8 summit. The president called lifting millions out of poverty and hunger through farming a moral obligation for both governments and businesses.

PRESIDENT BARACK OBAMA: Government cannot and shouldn't do this alone. This has to be all hands on deck.

RAY SUAREZ: The head of this country's foreign aid agency, Dr. Rajiv Shah, unveiled the Agency for International Development's program to bring U.S. agribusiness and Africans together to improve food productivity.

I talked with USAID Administrator Dr. Shah this afternoon.

Dr. Shah, welcome back to the program.

DR. RAJIV SHAH, administrator, United States Agency for International Development: Thank you. Thanks, Ray, for having me.

RAY SUAREZ: We have already briefly described the overall project and its objectives. But maybe you could talk a little bit more about how we're going to accomplish that very grand goal, lifting 50 million people out of poverty in 10 years.

DR. RAJIV SHAH: Well, it's actually -- it's a grand goal, but it's an achievable goal.

And we're going to accomplish it by bringing significant public sector investment, maintaining the commitments that President Obama and others have made over the last few years to reinvest in African agriculture and African agricultural institutions.

And we're going to achieve that goal by bringing a whole host of exciting new partners to the table, private companies in Africa that are providing seeds to small-scale farmers, companies from India or Europe that have something to offer, improving small-scale agriculture in Africa, and American firms, firms we would recognize easily that are now committing themselves to make real businesslike investments for the purpose of making sure that a smallholder farmer, often a women, in sub-Saharan Africa can produce enough food to feed herself, feed her family, go to market, extract more value from market and move her whole community out of poverty.

RAY SUAREZ: Right now, Africa is dealing with creeping deserts, less reliable rain, hotter and dryer climates. Are you sort of pushing a rock uphill with a project that leans so heavily on agriculture?

DR. RAJIV SHAH: Well, there's another part of this that is downhill, pushing the rock downhill.

And that is that Africa has 60 percent of the world's remaining unused arable land. And in a world that needs to produce enough food, double food production in order to feed nine billion people by 2040, that land has got to come into production.

Africa has some of the lowest yields on the planet, crop by crop. And we know and we have seen in western Kenya you can double or triple yields relatively quickly using all local solution solutions. And then what happens is millions of people don't need food aid during a famine or a drought. So this is a solvable problem. And there is as much of a downhill story as there is an uphill one.

RAY SUAREZ: The Saudis and the Chinese seem to be well aware of the agricultural potential of Africa. Aren't they buying up a lot of land to produce food for their own people?

DR. RAJIV SHAH: Well, they are. That's why today, and what's happening in so novel in terms of making sure that we have private sector companies involved in making investments to improve African agriculture and poverty outcomes, but also that those companies are agreeing to make investments under some common principles of transparency and responsibility.

Let's shine sunlight on what's happening so that everyone can see transparently where are the investments going? Who are they benefiting? How are they making sure that a young girl growing up in a rural household is getting access to nutrition so she can go to school and move on with her life in a productive way?

And there is a lot of investment going in, but unfortunately not enough of it falls under these principles of transparency. And through this new initiative, more than 45 companies are making more than $3 billion of investment commitments and doing so under these principles of transparency and responsibility for the first time.

RAY SUAREZ: You are going to roll out in Ghana, Tanzania and Ethiopia. There are more than four dozen countries in Africa. How did they get to the front of the line? Were there things they had to do first to be ready?

DR. RAJIV SHAH: Well, absolutely.

We talked to hundreds of private sector partners. And we found that until countries really, seriously reformed access to land tenure for a small-scale farmer, so that women farmers can actually have title to their land and go to a bank and get a loan, or until they reformed the way they regulate their seed sector, so that small seed companies can start selling improved crop varieties to farmers and help them overcome drought or pest or disease, those are the types of reforms that are required for these companies to make investments.

And we have started in those countries that are most eager to make those reforms. And they have come to Washington with real commitments. They have actually come with reform commitments, where there are dates set on when those reforms will take effect over the next 18 months.

RAY SUAREZ: I want to look a little closer at Ethiopia, because unlike Ghana and Tanzania, the Democracy Index run by the Economist Intelligence Unit rates it as an authoritarian regime, rates it 118th among the 167 countries on the Earth in terms of freedom and transparency in government.

It had a tough time getting born, modern Ethiopia. And there are human rights charges against the president. Why are they getting the pilot program?

DR. RAJIV SHAH: Well, you know, every year, the world rushes in with hundreds of millions of dollars of food aid to save and help Ethiopians who are hungry.

And during last year's drought, that number went to more than $1 billion. And the reality is, you know, we just absolutely have to keep pushing for more transparency, more open governance, for democracy to take root, because we know that democracy and development go hand-in-hand.

But we also have to make sure that we are insisting upon improved policies so that companies can invest, so that farmers can produce more food, and so that we can banish this image of starving Ethiopian children that, you know, does, in fact, call upon our moral values and forces us to react.

By doing the work this way, we will help Ethiopia feed itself. We will help those children over time move out of poverty, and we're engaging in a deep and meaningful dialogue to promote democracy, as we do in so many other parts of the world.

RAY SUAREZ: When you look at Africa, millions of people are working really hard every day to feed themselves, but there's so much to be done. There's bad roads for shipping crops regionally, bad facilities for holding on to food so it doesn't spoil by the time somebody gets a chance to eat it, bad ship facilities for getting cash crops, things that can be sold internationally, out of the country. Ethiopia doesn't even have a seaport anymore.

How do you figure out what to do first?

DR. RAJIV SHAH: Well, this is a great question, because the reality is we need a lot of these things to happen simultaneously in order to unlock the value and potential of African agriculture, so it can feed itself and feed the world.

And the reality is, that's happening. Now we have an Ethiopian commodity exchange that is helping to create a market alongside DuPont that today is making a commitment to invest real resources to reach 50,000 small-scale Ethiopian farmers with improved seed varieties that can help them and soil mapping data and other things that can help them improve their production.

In southern Tanzania, we are seeing Yara, a fertilizer company, invest in redoing the port, the African Development Bank invest in building road infrastructure, partners like USAID investing in helping farmers upgrade their skills, and companies like Tanseed, a small Tanzanian seed company, committing $11 million to help get improved seed varieties to small-scale farmers, and to do it in often small packets, because if you are farming half an acre of land or an acre of land, you don't feed a big bag of seed. You need a small packet.

And little innovations like that can go a long way at transforming the face of hunger and poverty.

RAY SUAREZ: Dr. Shah, thanks for talking to us.

DR. RAJIV SHAH: Thank you.

News Wrap: Greece Uncertainty, Austerity Top Agenda at G-8 Summit

Fri, 18 May 2012 18:13:00 EDT

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In other news Friday, leaders of some of the world's largest economies began gathering at Camp David in Maryland for the G-8 summit. Also, German Chancellor Angela Merkel suggested Greece hold a referendum on staying in the eurozone, according to a spokesman for Greece's caretaker government.

KWAME HOLMAN: Facebook's coming out did little to help Wall Street as a whole. The Dow Jones industrial average lost another 73 points to close at 12,369. The Nasdaq fell nearly 35 points to close at 2,778. For the week, the Dow lost 3.5 percent; the Nasdaq fell more than 5 percent.

Leaders of the world's largest economies began gathering at Camp David in Maryland today for the Group of 8 summit. Dignitaries were met at Dulles Airport outside Washington before heading to the presidential retreat and the G-8 gathering. Uncertainty over Greece, the euro system, and austerity measures topped the agenda.

Before leaving the White House, President Obama called for more emphasis on economic growth.

PRESIDENT BARACK OBAMA: And we're looking forward to a fruitful discussion later this evening and tomorrow with the other G8 leaders about how we can manage a responsible approach to fiscal consolidation that is coupled with a strong growth agenda.

KWAME HOLMAN: The G8 summit winds up tomorrow night. From there, most of the leaders will head to Chicago for a larger NATO summit.

The political crisis in Greece took a new turn today. A spokesman for the caretaker government reported that German Chancellor Angela Merkel suggested Greece hold a referendum on staying in the euro system when it holds new elections in June. The German government later denied it, but Greek leaders complained of outside interference. Merkel has insisted on austerity measures in Greece as the price of a European bailout.

In Syria, government troops stepped in again to break up mass Friday protests. Security forces fired tear gas and live ammunition in Aleppo to disperse thousands of people. There were similar rallies in other cities. Meanwhile, the military stepped up its shelling of Rastan. Thick plumes of smoke could be seen rising above that town in central Syria.

In Damascus, the Norwegian commander of a U.N. observer mission urged both sides to stop the bloodshed.

MAJ. GEN. ROBERT MOOD, head of U.N. Mission to Syria: No volume of observers can achieve a progressive drop and a permanent end to the violence if the commitment to give dialogue a chance is not genuine from all internal and external actors.

KWAME HOLMAN: The U.N. estimated in March that more than 9,000 people have died in the Syrian uprising. Hundreds more have been killed since then.

In Afghanistan, NATO announced two service members were killed in the eastern part of the country. That put this year's toll at 154. At least 100 of those were Americans.

Meanwhile, the new French president stuck by his campaign pledge to withdraw French combat troops from Afghanistan by the end of the year. Francois Hollande met with President Obama in Washington. He indicated some of the 3,300 French troops in Afghanistan might remain, but not in combat roles.

The House passed a defense budget today worth $642 billion, defying a veto threat from President Obama. By adding $8 billion in spending, the bill violates the deficit-cutting deal the president and congressional Republicans agreed to last summer.

Lawmakers also supported the administration's ability to detain terror suspects indefinitely without charge. That includes Americans captured on U.S. soil.

Those are some of the day's major stories.

Combating Hardship in Rural Thailand

Thu, 17 May 2012 18:39:00 EDT

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From Thailand, special correspondent Fred de Sam Lazaro reports on one social entrepreneur's efforts to combat hardships and instill a new way of thinking in the rural regions of the relatively prosperous country.

JEFFREY BROWN: Next tonight, narrowing the gap between urban and rural dwellers that exists even in a relatively prosperous country such as Thailand.

Special correspondent Fred de Sam Lazaro reports on one social entrepreneur's project in that Southeast Asian nation.

A version of this segment aired on the PBS program "Religion and Ethics Newsweekly."

FRED DE SAM LAZARO: It looks more like a theme park than a school. And it's not just its location in one of Thailand's most impoverished regions that's unusual. Buildings are made of bamboo, including a geodesic dome, just one way Mechai Viravaidya getting people to think differently.

MECHAI VIRAVAIDYA, Thailand: Well, just to show that you can do things people don't normally think can be done, such as getting underprivileged kids to be at the top of the scale of many, many things, of being good, being decent.

FRED DE SAM LAZARO: The Mechai Pattana School is the cornerstone of an idea to attack rural poverty and stereotypes and to instill a new kind of learning.

MECHAI VIRAVAIDYA: This is our sex education wheel.

FRED DE SAM LAZARO: The "Wheel of Fortune" game teaches about various sexually transmitted diseases.

MECHAI VIRAVAIDYA: Green is a safe color, of course. Aha! Oh, aha! HIV, oh boy, you just missed that. And they have a good laugh, and then because HIV is explained up there. . .

FRED DE SAM LAZARO: Mechai has long relied on good laughs to explain HIV and sex education in this conservative Southeast Asian nation.

Born to physician parents, his mother from Scotland, his father from a prominent Thai family, Mechai was trained as an economist. But he became a TV personality who spearheaded family planning campaigns in the '70s and, two decades later, condom use to prevent HIV.

I first interviewed him in 1998.

MECHAI VIRAVAIDYA: We said, look, one must not be embarrassed by the condom. It's just from a rubber tree, like a tennis ball. If you're embarrassed by a condom, you must be more embarrassed by the tennis ball. There's more rubber in it.

FRED DE SAM LAZARO: Mechai is credited with bringing down Thailand's soaring HIV infection rate and its high birth rate, work that won him numerous international awards, including the $1 million dollar Gates Foundation Prize for Global Health.

Dr. Malcolm Potts, former head of the International Planned Parenthood Federation, says it changed the future of Thailand.

DR. MALCOLM POTTS, former head, International Planned Parenthood Federation: In 1960, Thailand and the Philippines had about the same population, about 60 million people, 50 million people. Today, the Philippines has 94 million people, and there's a lot of poverty. Thailand has 1.8 children per family. It's got about 68 million people, and it's making progress.

FRED DE SAM LAZARO: Potts was an early collaborator with Mechai. He says population stability was an economic stepping stone.

DR. MALCOLM POTTS: I think it's a seamless evolution. Mechai, at least in the past, used to talk about fertility-led development.

FRED DE SAM LAZARO: Thailand, now considered a middle-income country, faces a different crisis that Mechai is attacking: a growing economic gap between its rural and urban areas that forces young people to leave the farms to find work.

On a beach resort once owned by Mechai's family -- it's now run by a non-profit group he founded -- is a garden of so-called intensive agriculture. He wants to develop appropriate sustainable technology to increase incomes in farm families.

MECHAI VIRAVAIDYA: This is the new style condom. This is the poverty eradication condom.

(LAUGHTER)

FRED DE SAM LAZARO: The unusual metaphor aside, he says these recycled bags of potting soil can grow produce, in this case cantaloupes, with a minimum of water and space and maximum profit.

MECHAI VIRAVAIDYA: You'd grow it four times a year, so that's 34,000 baht. That's just under a thousand dollars for this much space, nearly as good as marijuana. Might be even better. Don't have to share with the police, either.

FRED DE SAM LAZARO: All joking aside, he says other Thai staples, mushrooms, limes, poultry and hydroponic produce, can easily be grown in rural enterprises, like those he's helped set up in Buriram Province, about four hours from Bangkok.

He's worked here for two decades, introducing his crop ideas. Earlier in his career, he helped bring factories to the region. They now operate independently.

MECHAI VIRAVAIDYA: You have a factory in the middle of nowhere here.

FRED DE SAM LAZARO: This shoe factory was started with international grants. It now provides work for 140 to 200 people, producing mostly for the multinational Bata shoe company.

MECHAI VIRAVAIDYA: We helped, from Canadian money again, to provide a loan for them to establish a factory building, and then helped to get Bata to come in, rented the machinery and then bought the machinery, and they've been on their own for about 15 years.

FRED DE SAM LAZARO: A short distance away are buildings once used to train people to raise livestock. Now they are factories, making brassieres in this building, ice skates in the next.

MECHAI VIRAVAIDYA: How could you imagine an old chicken pen and an old pig pen making this stuff, or brassieres?

FRED DE SAM LAZARO: Was it really a tough sell at first?

MECHAI VIRAVAIDYA: Oh, yes, took seven visits. They did it out of pity at first. And then they realized that it worked. And when the first -- when we bring someone new down, they can't quite fathom it, how can it be done, because they have been so used to the perception that you do everything like this in Bangkok, in the city.

FRED DE SAM LAZARO: The factories provide livable, if not lucrative, wages and social benefits. But to truly transform rural communities, Mechai says will take new approaches to education.

And that's where the bamboo school comes in. It is now 3 years old, serving grades seven through 10. Funds to build it came from profits from his resort, the Gates prize money, and corporate donations. Longer term, the school is developing its own vegetable farm, a key part of its business strategy.

So when this is up and running and flourishing, the cantaloupes and the limes will be paying the teacher salaries here?

MECHAI VIRAVAIDYA: Yes. Amongst other things, really, yes.

FRED DE SAM LAZARO: The motto here is, the more you give, the more you get. Aside from academics, every student and family face strict work requirements.

MECHAI VIRAVAIDYA: The parents do community service, and the kids do community service, and for every lunch time or meal time you have to do one hour's community service, so that payment is in providing help to other people, plus their school fees.

FRED DE SAM LAZARO: As part of their service, these students were preparing lesson plans to teach younger children in a nearby government school. It's part of their training in leadership and critical thinking, and a departure from the rote learning standard in most Thai public schools.

RUTHAICHANOK JUNPENG, student (through translator): The teachers are here to teach us, but they're also like friends, like an older friend that you can go to for advice, not just about what you're learning.

PIMPAKAIN SIRI, student (through translator): My parents are rice farmers, and I expect my future to be quite different, because I want to become a doctor, and I believe I can do that. I've learned new ways to help my parents, who are used to doing agriculture the traditional ways. And I can help raise their income.

FRED DE SAM LAZARO: And because students at Mechai's school regularly volunteer, they feel connected to their rural communities, says teacher Nantina Saninchai. She predicts two-thirds of them will create or find jobs here.

NANTINA SANINCHAI, teacher (through translator): So a number will stay here. They have computers, et cetera, similar to what they would in the city.

FRED DE SAM LAZARO: Ideas from Mechai's school are catching on with various backyard enterprises. On weekends in the village of Banong Takem, children collect litter in exchange for spending time online at a community center or in a toy and book library.

Parents prepare food and hand out treats. The village chief, Chamleung Panrin, says one reason this community thrives is that parents are around for their children.

CHAMLEUNG PANRIN, village chief (through translator): Eight years ago, migration was rampant. Everybody would leave, and you only had children being brought up by the grandparents. Now it has very greatly improved.

MECHAI VIRAVAIDYA: The only road out of poverty is through business enterprise, and this is what we're doing. Teach them, train them, lend them the money, not give them the money, and the business skills, but probably very, very important to go with it too is community empowerment.

FRED DE SAM LAZARO: And you need to start it young?

MECHAI VIRAVAIDYA: Yes. Yes, start them young. When you start learning how to give when you're young, when you get older it's second nature. Just like stealing. Start young and you keep on stealing forever.

FRED DE SAM LAZARO: Mechai says he won't mind if more people steal this self-help model of building community and nation.

MARGARET WARNER: Fred's reporting is a partnership with the Under-Told Stories Project at Saint Mary's University in Minnesota.

News Wrap: Future of Eurozone Uncertain as Greek Credit Rating Drops

Thu, 17 May 2012 18:12:00 EDT

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In other news Thursday, questions kept coming about the future of the eurozone. By all accounts, money was flowing out of Greece where far-left leaders are agitating to break a bailout agreement and end austerity measures. Also, a fight over solar panels flared into the open between the U.S. and China.

KWAME HOLMAN: The trading losses at JPMorgan Chase are getting worse.

A report in today's New York Times said they have surged at least 50 percent in recent days. Bank chairman and CEO Jamie Dimon had originally estimated the losses at $2 billion over the last six weeks. With the additional losses, the total is now at least $3 billion. Still, analysts say the bank's overall health is strong.

The questions kept coming today about the future of the eurozone. By all accounts, money was flowing out of Greece, where far-left leaders are agitating to break a bail-out agreement and end austerity measures. Meanwhile, the prime minister of Britain warned against letting the 17- nation eurozone break up.

We have a report from Alex Forrest of Independent Television News.

ALEX FORREST: It's not quite time to time hit the panic button yet. But today in Manchester, David Cameron admitted these are perilous economic times, and with the Greek crisis overshadowing everything, the prime minister laid out again the stark choice facing eurozone leaders.

DAVID CAMERON, British prime minister: The eurozone is at a crossroads. It either has to make up or it is looking at a potential breakup. Either Europe has a committed, stable, successful eurozone, with an effective firewall, well-capitalized or regulated banks, or we are in uncharted territory, which carries huge risks for everybody.

QUESTION: Given what you have said, do you think now that the eurozone is doomed to fail?

DAVID CAMERON: We have to be clear that it's in our interests for there to be a working eurozone and a working euro. I think what's damaging is the uncertainty of there not being the right clarity about what needs to be done.
ALEX FORREST: But the left-wing leader who could hold the key to Greek power in next month's election says austerity leads only one way.

ALEXIS TSIPRAS, Syriza Party leader: Everybody now understands that with this policy we are going directly to the hell, and we want to change this way.

ALEX FORREST: He will certainly get some sympathy from the new French president, who met with his cabinet today. But even socialist Francois Hollande must be wondering how the eurozone will get out of this mess.

KWAME HOLMAN: The trouble was compounded by rumors of a run on a newly nationalized bank in Spain. All of that helped drive stocks down across Europe, adding to losses over the past two weeks.

Wall Street had a rough day, too. Fears about Greece were compounded by disappointing reports on manufacturing and estimates of future growth. The Dow Jones industrial average lost 156 points to close at 12,442, its 11 decline in 12 days. The Nasdaq fell 60 points to close at 2,813.

For the first time, Facebook stock will be traded publicly tomorrow. Its opening price was set late today at $38 a share.

A fight over solar panels flared into the open today between the U.S. and China. The Commerce Department ruled Chinese companies are dumping solar products in the U.S. at cheap prices subsidized by the Chinese government. The ruling called for import tariffs averaging 31 percent. Several American firms sought the ruling, but most warned it could lead to a trade war.

Republican Mitt Romney has begun to narrow his fund-raising gap with President Obama. New figures today showed Romney's campaign, along with the Republican National Committee, brought in just more than $40 million in April. President Obama and the Democratic National Committee raised $43.6 million in the same period. The totals do not include hundreds of millions of dollars collected by so-called super political action committees.

President Obama nominated a new ambassador to Myanmar today, the first in 22 years. Derek Mitchell currently serves as special envoy to Myanmar, also known as Burma. His nomination today was the latest sign of fast-thawing relations with the Southeast Asian country. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton hosted Myanmar's foreign minister today, and welcomed his government's reforms, after years of military rule.

SECRETARY OF STATE HILLARY CLINTON: This is a moment for us to recognize that the progress which has occurred in the last year towards democratization and national reconciliation is irreversible, as the minister said to me. The United States wants to do everything we can to be sure that is the reality.

KWAME HOLMAN: The U.S. also is easing restrictions on trade and investment in Myanmar.

Government troops in Yemen made new advances today toward a key al-Qaida stronghold in the south. The expected assault on Zinjibar is part of a larger offensive, aiming to uproot militants who've taken control in parts of the region. Also today, Yemeni officials reported three militants were killed and two wounded in a missile strike by a U.S. drone aircraft.

In the Netherlands, an international tribunal suspended the war crimes trial of Ratko Mladic, the Bosnian Serb army commander, a day after it began. The judges said prosecutors made significant errors in failing to disclose evidence to the defense. Mladic faces 11 charges of genocide, crimes against humanity and war crimes tied to the Bosnian civil war in the 1990s.

Prosecutors in Florida have released evidence showing Trayvon Martin had marijuana in his urine and blood when he was killed. That finding comes from the autopsy on the teenager. He was shot to death in February by George Zimmerman, a neighborhood watch volunteer. Zimmerman is charged with second-degree murder, but claims he acted in self-defense. Prosecutors also released a photo today taken after the confrontation showing Zimmerman with a bloody nose.

Those are some of the day's major stories.

Remembering Carlos Fuentes, Mexico's Grand Man of Letters

Wed, 16 May 2012 18:48:00 EDT

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Carlos Fuentes was a prolific writer -- penning novels, essays, newspaper articles, even an opera. Recognized as one of Latin America's greatest literary figures, Fuentes brought stories from Mexico to the world stage. He died Tuesday at age 83. Ray Suarez and Ilan Stavans of Amherst College discuss the impact of Fuentes' work.

JEFFREY BROWN: And finally tonight, we remember Mexico's grand man of letters.

Ray Suarez is back with that story.

RAY SUAREZ: Carlos Fuentes was a prolific writer, penning novels, essays, newspaper articles and even an opera. Recognized as one of Latin America's greatest literary figures and a politically outspoken artist, Fuentes brought stories from Mexico to the world stage. He died yesterday at the age of 83 in Mexico City.

To discuss his life and work, we are joined by Ilan Stavans, who teaches literature at Amherst College in Massachusetts and edited "The Norton Anthology of Latino Literature."

Professional Stavans, welcome back to the program.

I keep hearing Carlos Fuentes referred to as a novelist, but that seems like too small a box to put him into.

ILAN STAVANS, Amherst College: Yes, too small. I think he was a renaissance man.

He perfected the role of the international man of letters. And every time one of his kind dies, we think that the last public intellectual has passed away. I'm not going to fall into that kind of lazy thinking. There are others.

But Carlos Fuentes represented the passion for the ideas, the engagement with politics and the vision that you could go from one culture to another, from one language to the next, and engage audiences in their own realm, bringing the passion of thought through writing, but also through lectures, through all sorts of strategies that he could come up with.

He was really a man that believed in the idea that ideas are at the center of our democratic society.

RAY SUAREZ: You know, in 2012, an American student who finishes high school, maybe goes on to college is likely to read a Latin American writer. But take us back to 1958, when Fuentes' first novel appeared. It was a pretty different scene, wasn't it?

ILAN STAVANS: It was a very different scene.

Mexico was considered at that time to be an awkward, primitive country with little to offer to Western civilization. And it was Fuentes and a cadre of other writers at that time who started to believe in the idea that the European novel, the North American novel had both run their course, and that it was time for the Latin American pen to stand up to the world stage and present a different vision of what literature was all about and what the idea of politics and the imagination together could -- could result in.

He, together with Gabriel Garcia Marquez, with Mario Vargas Llosa, who recently won the Nobel Prize, and with Julio Cortazar from Argentina, were at the forefront of a movement called the Latin American literary boom that really renovated world literature and do so by presenting Latin America as a factory of dreams and as a factory of thought that others had to be taken -- had to take into consideration.

At one point, one of his friends, and eventually his enemies, Octavio Paz, said that it was at that time that Latin America entered the banquet of the West, and it was thanks to these writers that it was possible to do so. Certainly, Fuentes was at the forefront of that movement.

RAY SUAREZ: But he was hardly from central casting for that role, was he? This was a man who was born outside his country, in Panama, into a diplomatic family, spent much of his formative years in the United States, didn't even really live in Mexico full-time until he was a teenager.

ILAN STAVANS: And that was in some measure the element that caused lots of resentment in Mexico toward Fuentes.

He was a man that was both admired, celebrated, but also ended in the -- and pushed aside, pushed to the distance in some ways. Certainly, in the last period of his life, he believed that he was the spokesperson for Mexico, the voice for the voiceless in his country.

But many in his own country and in other parts of the world questioned, to what extent did he really -- was he really part of Mexico? And I think that we finally have gone beyond that kind of stereotypical approach: You have to be born in your country. You have to go through the education in it in order to represent it.

He was a global man that had as its base Mexico.

RAY SUAREZ: Professor, we will continue our conversation online.

Ilan Stavans, thanks for joining us.

ILAN STAVANS: It has been a pleasure. Thank you for having me.

As Mladic Stands Trial, 'In One Sense, the War Criminals Won'

Wed, 16 May 2012 18:19:00 EDT

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Facing 11 counts of genocide and crimes against humanity, Bosnian Serb Gen. Ratko Mladic finally went before an international court Wednesday after more than 15 years on the run. Jeffrey Brown and Michael Dobbs of the U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum discuss the case and Mladic's war crimes charges tied to the Bosnian civil war.

JEFFREY BROWN: A short time ago I spoke to author and journalist Michael Dobbs, who's currently a fellow at the U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum. He covered the Bosnian War and has returned to the region to interview Mladic's victims. Today, he was inside the courtroom at The Hague.

Michael Dobbs, welcome.

So this all goes back many years now. You were in the courtroom today. What was it like? What was the atmosphere?

MICHAEL DOBBS, author/journalist: Well, there were a lot of spectators in the courtroom who been victims of the war in Bosnia.

They were filling about half the courtroom. And there was some back-and-forth, not orally, but visually, between them and Ratko Mladic. When Mladic came into the court, he waved at these spectators, did a thumbs-up. Some of them waved back. Others cursed him. He seemed to relish being in the presence of people who could be described as his victims.

JEFFREY BROWN: So, take us back in time to what this is all about. I mean this was a horrific war in so many ways. What made Srebrenica in particular stand out?

MICHAEL DOBBS: Well, Srebrenica was the final episode in a horrific three-and-a-half-year war in Bosnia. In Europe itself, Srebrenica was the worst massacre to occur in Europe since World War II.

People had said after the Holocaust, never again, and here it was happening on Europe's own doorstep. And the great powers, led by the United States, were unable to do anything about it.

At Srebrenica, it's now been established pretty conclusively that at least 7,000 Muslim prisoners were executed in cold blood by Mladic's forces and another 1,000 were killed in skirmishes as they tried to reach government-held territory to the north.

After the massacre in Srebrenica, finally, the West got its act together and began the -- what led to -- eventually to the Dayton peace negotiations. So, this was the first big conflict after the end of the Cold War, and for a long time, for three-and-a-half years, the United States and other Western governments proved inadequate to the challenge.

JEFFREY BROWN: So, of course, this particular tribunal, I gather, was set up soon after the war, so long ago. Only now, in the last years, are we getting to some of these very high players, high generals and leaders. Why did it take so long?

MICHAEL DOBBS: Well, actually, the tribunal was set up during the war in what was interpreted then as a kind of token gesture of solidarity with the victims. That's 20 years ago.

And it took them the best part of two decades to bring the most high-profile war criminals, including Mladic and the president of the Bosnian Serb Republic, Radovan Karadzic, to court. For a long time, Mladic was -- and Karadzic were wandering about Bosnia in Belgrade, but nobody dared to go and arrest him.

And it was only last year that Mladic was finally arrested in his cousin's house in a remote village in northern Serbia, and transferred to The Hague. So, I think at the beginning, it was a lack of political will, and it's taken two decades to get over that.

JEFFREY BROWN: And then if you bring the story right up to today, we see these very different responses to Mladic. We see it in this tape of people reacting very much for him, very much against him. So these divisions are still very much with us?

MICHAEL DOBBS: Right.

In one sense, the war criminals won, in the sense that Bosnia is an ethnically divided country now. And I was there fairly recently, and you go to the Muslim side and you -- the Croat side and the Serb side, and you get three different narratives of what happened, and we saw that reflected in the reaction to the trial today.

In the Muslim side, of course, there's a lot of joy that Mladic has finally been brought to court. On the Serbian side, there's still a denial about the basic facts of what happened at Srebrenica and in other parts of Bosnia. And among many Serbs, Mladic is still regarded as a hero. And he plays on that in his courtroom appearances.

JEFFREY BROWN: Finally, Michael, how will this trial proceed? How long is it supposed to last?

MICHAEL DOBBS: Well, they think it's going to last about two years, which, believe it or not, is the fast track for the Yugoslav war crimes tribunal.

They want at all costs to avoid what happened to, in the case of the former leader Slobodan Milosevic, who actually died while his trial was going on. So there were originally 196 charges, separate incidents against Mladic, and they cut the indictment to 106 charges. So they have put him on the fast track. But he is not in good health.

He suffered several strokes while he was on the run. So it's anyone's guess whether he's actually going to last until the end of this trial. But today, at least, he was in pretty good -- he seemed in pretty good health.

JEFFREY BROWN: All right, Michael Dobbs in The Hague, thanks so much.

Bosnia's Ratko Mladic Stands Trial on Genocide, War Crimes Charges

Wed, 16 May 2012 18:17:00 EDT

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After more than 15 years on the run, Bosnian Serb Gen. Ratko Mladic -- once one of the world's most-wanted fugitives -- finally went on trial before an international court Wednesday. Mladic faces 11 charges of genocide, crimes against humanity and war crimes tied to the Bosnian Civil War in the 1990s. Jeffrey Brown reports.

JEFFREY BROWN: Srebrenica, the siege of Sarajevo, the still raw feelings from the Bosnian War -- the past returned today to a courtroom in the Netherlands.

MAN: The International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia is now in session.

JEFFREY BROWN: The Bosnian Serb Gen. Ratko Mladic was once one of the world's most-wanted fugitives. Today, after more than 15 years on the run, he finally went on trial before an international court at The Hague in the Netherlands.

A prosecutor opened the case.

DERMOT GROOME, prosecutor: Your Honors, two decades ago this past month, Bosnian Serb leaders commenced an attack on their fellow citizens of Bosnia and Herzegovina, civilians who were targeted for no other reason than they were of an ethnicity other than Serb.

JEFFREY BROWN: Mladic faces 11 charges of genocide, crimes against humanity and war crimes tied to the Bosnian civil war in the 1990s. His forces besieged Sarajevo for 44 months and they carried out the mass killing of nearly 8,000 Muslim men and boys in Srebrenica in July of 1995. It was the worst massacre in Europe since World War II.

He was arrested just a year ago this month in Serbia.

Today, a group of Muslim women watched the trial on television from a home in Srebrenica.

FAZILA EFENDIC, Srebrenica: (through translator): I am furious. Why were they waiting so long for this? Why did we have to wait for so long for him to be arrested? Why did we have to wait for a whole year to begin this trial? I wish he doesn't die. I wish him to suffer. I beg God to punish him.

JEFFREY BROWN: But in the town of Pale, this group of Bosnian Serbs applauded Mladic as they watched the court proceedings.

MILAN IVANOVIC, Bosnian Serb (through translator): The international community and The Hague are still leading anti-Serb politics. They never mention the opposite side, while this great man, our general, is kept behind bars in very bad health.

JEFFREY BROWN: Now 70 years old, Mladic has denied any wrongdoing, insisting he only defended Bosnian Serbs.

Meanwhile, the Bosnian Serbs' overall leader, Radovan Karadzic, is also on trial at The Hague. He was arrested in 2008. Former Yugoslav and Serbian President Slobodan Milosevic died in prison in 2006 before a verdict was reached in his case.