OutlinerSoftware Forum

Mac outliners, one-pane, modeless and general-purpose like text editors? - Cassius

Sat, 04 Jul 2009 01:24:12 GMT

JohnK wrote:

>I wouldn't try writing a book in Word because when I
>last tried editing a large document in Word, the program kept choking.
>
>The document
>was in excess of 100,000 words, so it was novel length. And, unlike a novel, it had a lot
>of formatting. What was interesting was that I rescued the situation by transferring
>the document from Windows Word (which was struggling) to the Mac version of Word,
>which saved the day.
---
My experience with Word for Windows 2000 has`also been less than perfect. I often was the lead editor on technical documents with several authors. I learned to always produce the document in several parts. There are good reasons for this:

1. If different authors use different formatting, combining these authors' contributions into one document without first standardizing the formatting of each contribution USING A SINGLE PC TO DO IT will result in a mess.

2. If one contribution has a "bug" in it, combining this contribution with the others into a single, "final" document can result in the the entire document being affected. ALWAYS save the individual parts so you can track down the "guilty part.y"

Another problem that I have proven occurs with WinWord documents (and may also occur with Excel documents) concerns emailing them. Some, perhaps all, email programs can and do change formatting in Word documents. Worse, these changes seem almost random: One has to proofread the entire document to find the changes. As a result, I now only email Word documents as zipped files. It seems to help.

-c

== Note-Taker Software--The Missing Piece == - Chuck

Sat, 04 Jul 2009 00:31:49 GMT

Stephen Zeoli wrote:
>After checking the main MyInfo page, I realize the developer has not yet publicly
>announced the new release, so for the moment it is limited to those of us who have
>already have a license. I imagine the official public announcement will be made soon.
>Meanwhile, here is what the developer says about this new feature:
>
>Link to
>paragraphs
>Again, one of the top requests on our feedback page. MyInfo 4 is excellent
>at creating links to topics and documents, but many people wanted to be able to link to
>exact place in the document, especially when they have many long text documents
>inside MyInfo.
>
>Now in MyInfo 5, this is easy like the other Copy Hyperlink commands.
>Just click on the exact spot where you want to link to and select Edit > Copy Link > Copy
>Link To This Paragraph. This will create an anchor in the text and copy the link to the
>Clipboard. Now, you can link to this spot of your document from any Windows
>application that supports hyperlinks.

Stephen,
Thank you for your reply.
It would appear that my pilgrimage in pursuit of the perfect info-manager is quite similar to yours.
As with you (if I recall correctly), my search for the holy grail seems to have come to its conclusion when I pitted David (MyInfo) against the lumbering behemoth, OneNote. But unlike the Biblical narrative, in this case, David's 5 stones did not fell the monster.
The difference, however, in your path in this conquest and my own was that I took a far simpler view than you seem to have. For example ...
> MyInfo has outstanding tag support & awesome filtering;
> But a Tree-based interface simply does not compete with the Sharp, five-level organizational layers offered by OneNote (Multi-Notebooks, Sections, Pages, Plus 2 Subdivisions). {Too bad though that its exporting options are horrible.)
> And finally, hyperlinking in both of these august products now resolve to paragraph.
And so (hope, hope), it appears that, at least for now, I have reached trails end. I walk in peace with behemoth.

Chuck C.

Mac outliners, one-pane, modeless and general-purpose like text editors? - JohnK

Fri, 03 Jul 2009 21:15:19 GMT

Oh I do wish we could edit posts on this forum. The post above should read as follows (apologies for the confusion):

Stephen R. Diamond wrote:
>In some ways, Word?s outliner is more powerful than any
>dedicated Windows outliner. I wouldn?t try writing a book on Word start to finish
>because of only a single deficit: the inability to select and drag multiple headings
>in outline view. I wonder if the Mac version has this capability. (I?d guess the answer
>is ?no.?)

I wouldn?t try writing a book in Word because when I last tried editing a large document in Word, the program kept choking.

The document was in excess of 100,000 words, so it was novel length. And, unlike a novel, it had a lot of formatting. What was interesting was that I rescued the situation by transferring the document from Windows Word (which was struggling) to the Mac version of Word, which saved the day.

That was four or five years ago. I?m sure Word has improved. But if I were to write a novel tomorrow (and that?s unlikely), I would use Word (for Windows) only in conjunction with the excellent Chapter by Chapter (http://pagesperso-orange.fr/sebastien.berthet/cbc/index.html), which eases organisation.

There are many other options, of course.

Mac outliners, one-pane, modeless and general-purpose like text editors? - JohnK

Fri, 03 Jul 2009 21:11:26 GMT

Stephen R. Diamond wrote:
>In some ways, Word's outliner is more powerful than any
>dedicated Windows outliner. I wouldn't try writing a book on Word start to finish
>because of only a single deficit: the inability to select and drag multiple headings
>in outline view. I wonder if the Mac version has this capability. (I'd guess the answer
>is 'no.')
>
I wouldn't try writing a book in Word because when I last tried editing a large document in Word, the program kept choking.

The document was in excess of 100,000 words, so it was novel length. And, unlike a novel, it had a lot of formatting. What was interesting was that I rescued the situation by transferring the document from Windows Word (which was struggling) to the Mac version of Word, which saved the day.

That was four or five years ago. I'm sure Word has improved. But if I were to write a novel tomorrow (and that's unlikely), I would use Word (for Windows) only in conjunction with the excellent Chapter by Chapter (http://pagesperso-orange.fr/sebastien.berthet/cbc/index.html), which eases organisation.

There are many other options, of course.

Mac outliners, one-pane, modeless and general-purpose like text editors? - Stephen R. Diamond

Fri, 03 Jul 2009 18:54:31 GMT

Does the outliner in the Mac version of MS Word have any significant capabilities that the Windows version lacks?

In some ways, Word's outliner is more powerful than any dedicated Windows outliner. I wouldn't try writing a book on Word start to finish because of only a single deficit: the inability to select and drag multiple headings in outline view. I wonder if the Mac version has this capability. (I'd guess the answer is 'no.')

Cassius wrote:
>2 cents: My son has just written a 300(?) page nonfiction book to be published in
>September and the publisher has already asked him to write one or two more. He tells me
>for fiction or nonfiction he only uses MS Word on a Mac. He feels that using additional
>software for initial or intermediate steps just adds unnecessary complications and
>wastes time. (For video game scripts he used something else.)

Mindsystems Amode on Bits - Derek Cater

Thu, 02 Jul 2009 19:36:04 GMT

I bought Amode about six weeks ago and have been very impressed with it. It is a very capable product, is extremely intuitive and has a very responsive developer. I think it is a steal at the Bits du Jour offer price.

At the highest level of organisation within an Amode 'Solution File' are 'Projects', which you populate with 'Topics' and 'Subtopics' (there are no restrictions on the number of levels to the hierarchy) in a tree. Each topic and sub-topic has a notes pane, which supports cut, copy and paste, text alignment, bullets and numbered bullets, tables, image insertion, spell check, etc. Notes can be imported from and exported to various MS Office and OpenOffice document formats. And Amode is ink-enabled, so ink notes can be taken on a tablet PC, which I am now even more pleased to have.

In addition to the notes pane, for each topic and sub-topic you can link or embed any number of external files, whether they are documents on your hard disc or web pages. Linking allows you to keep the size of the Solution File low, while embedding is best if the Solution File will be opened on a range of computers. And whether attached or embedded, the file is opened by its native programme (which you must have installed, of course).

Also, for each topic and sub-topic, you can set a number of project management variables, such as start and finish date, priority, percentage complete and dependencies with other tasks (finish-to-start, start-to-finish, start-to-start and finish-to-finish dependencies are all possible). You can assign resources (physical and human) to each topic and sub-topic and you can set their hourly or daily rates. You can also set up default and custom calendars. Having assiduously plugged this information in, Amode will produce a cost quotation for you, if you so wish. Dependencies and resource allocations operate across all projects in a single Solution File, which is a good reason to group a number of projects within a single Solution File rather than create a new File for each project.

In addition to the tree view, you can select to display any topic and sub-topic in Amode's Calendar and/or Gantt views. The calendar can be zoomed to the day (in increments from five to 60 minutes), working week, seven-day week or the month, while the Gantt view can be zoomed from 15-minute to monthly intervals.

All of these features are presented in a very user-friendly way. As I said in a previous posting, anyone who has used a two-pane outliner, an electronic calendar and a Gantt-chart-producing project management software programme will feel at home in Amode within half an hour.

The developer is responsive too. Of the three minor bugs I have reported, one was corrected in the second of the two updates released to date, while the other two are due to be remedied in the next or next-but-one update, which, I am told, will see some significant enhancements to the notes pane functions. The developer also promises new viewing modes in the second major release of Amode, planned for next year, I believe, which must surely mean the incorporation of a mind-mapping mode.

Amode is being marketed to businesses as an alternative or complement to mind-mapping software and appears to be generating some buzz in that sector. That will likely entail a healthy revenue stream for Mindsystems, which should mean that Amode will be developed for years to come, which in turn means that we should be safe in throwing our information into it.

All of this power and flexibility means that Amode is now taking care of most of my project needs. I write my reports in it, with each topic or sub-topic representing a single text section, exporting to MS Word only for the final formatting. I usually choose to display the tree in the calendar view, to structure my writing week. Project meetings are entered as topics and displayed in the calendar. I link various documents on my hard disc to these meeting topics, for easy reference during the meeting, while I take meeting notes in the notes or ink notes panes. When planning or monitoring the implementation of projects I import existing Gantt charts into Amode (if they are in MS Project format) or I create one afresh, each line on the Gantt chart equating to a topic or sub-topic, with dependencies applied. I then input progress against the Gantt chart into Amode as the project unfolds.

The only downside to Amode that I have discovered to date is that it is going to severely limit my 'justifiable' CRIMP opportunities ;-)

Mac outliners, one-pane, modeless and general-purpose like text editors? - Cassius

Thu, 02 Jul 2009 04:13:08 GMT

2 cents: My son has just written a 300(?) page nonfiction book to be published in September and the publisher has already asked him to write one or two more. He tells me for fiction or nonfiction he only uses MS Word on a Mac. He feels that using additional software for initial or intermediate steps just adds unnecessary complications and wastes time. (For video game scripts he used something else.)

Mac outliners, one-pane, modeless and general-purpose like text editors? - David Dunham

Thu, 02 Jul 2009 01:39:57 GMT

Derek Peschel wrote:

>But consider a specific situation. ... I can't see how that specific
>operation can ever be unsafe. Forward delete at the beginning of the document is
>generally unsafe, though.

I'm sure there are situations where it'd be useful. But I tend to design with an eye to the general. There are more situations where it couldn't work, and that give you unpredictable behavior. You can always delete the current topic by tab backspace.

FWIW, if Opal had Join, it wouldn't use backspace as a keyboard equivalent. You'd need to be able to select multiple topics to join and then join them.

>The review's description of keyboard shortcuts
>helped. I thought that Opal could add its entire set of menu commands to the list of
>keyboard shortcuts, in the same way the OS commands are always listed.

But if Word did that, you'd be scrolling forever and never be able to find anything ...

The OS commands are listed because there's no place else to find them. Opal's (or Word's) menus are available from Opal (or Word). And some of them are context sensitive, or don't appear until you hold Option (e.g. Split Daughter).

Mac outliners, one-pane, modeless and general-purpose like text editors? - Derek Peschel

Wed, 01 Jul 2009 20:24:45 GMT

A quoted reply hasn't been working for me (page doesn't finish loading or is blank).

David, you're right about deletion. What does it mean for the backward or forward delete key to join topics? In general that would cause a topic to move into another topic's place, and you would have to define what that operation does to the whole outline and when it should be possible. But consider a specific situation. I've just typed some indentation commands to create a new topic at the bottom of the document, and I've typed some text. I can backspace over the text. It would be nice to have one more backspace get rid of the new topic and put the insertion point at the end of the topic that's now at the bottom of the document. I can't see how that specific operation can ever be unsafe. Forward delete at the beginning of the document is generally unsafe, though.

The review's description of keyboard shortcuts helped. I thought that Opal could add its entire set of menu commands to the list of keyboard shortcuts, in the same way the OS commands are always listed.

Mindsystems Amode on Bits - Stephen Zeoli

Wed, 01 Jul 2009 14:32:23 GMT

I just noticed that next Wednesday, July 8, Mindsystems Amode will be on sale at Bits du Jour at half its normal $200 price. I haven't tried this application, but know that some here have been interested in it. Here's the link to the preview:

http://www.bitsdujour.com/previews/

Steve Z.

MyInfo Version 5 available - Susanne

Wed, 01 Jul 2009 11:43:14 GMT

It was planned for version 5 at some point but, according to the forum, was removed in order to get the release out.
To be fair, Petko has offered to refund the upgrade costs if someone only bought it for this feature.

MyInfo Version 5 available - Stephen R. Diamond

Wed, 01 Jul 2009 07:48:00 GMT

Wasn't hoisting in the tree promised for this version? Or is that wishful thinking?

Mac outliners, one-pane, modeless and general-purpose like text editors? - David Dunham

Tue, 30 Jun 2009 21:46:05 GMT

Derek Peschel wrote:

>I may have been thinking of another program when I
>mentioned modes, but Opal does make a distinction between selecting an entire topic
>and selecting the entire contents of a topic. Is it always possible to select anything
>with the keyboard?

Right, but that's not a mode. It's a selection, like selecting an icon in Finder, or the icon's label. You can select text or topics. (Opal supports multiple topic selection.) It should always be possible to select with the keyboard.

>One thing I do know: with the right prefs, you can use return and
>the indentation keys to add a series of topics and their contents. But delete doesn't
>backspace across topics (that I've found), so right there Opal doesn't give
>text-editor-style behavior.

Well, no. It's an outliner. You can hold down backspace to get a fresh start on the topic. And you wouldn't want to delete the line ending that a text editor would use, lots of the time you wouldn't end up with a valid outline.

>Incidentally, the help says to use System
>Preferences to set the keyboard shortcuts. Opal isn't on the list, however. Is that
>because I am running the trial version from downloaded files, rather than as an
>installed package?

That shouldn't make a difference. As it happens, a recent review went into some detail on this so I'll just point to it: http://themacosxguru.blogspot.com/2009/06/opal-old-school-in-nicest-possible-way.html

MyInfo Version 5 available - Susanne

Tue, 30 Jun 2009 19:57:55 GMT

For anyone using or interested in MyInfo:
Petko sent out a mail to all "old" users, MyInfo Pro 5 has received a few very useful new functions.
As a faithful user, I chose to upgrade at the introductory price. Petko has always been responsive, and, in view of some of the discussions here about SW Use and supporting developers I feel it fair to pay for an upgrade every year or so, especially when the price is very fair.

Link: http://www.milenix.com/myinfo/mi5pro.html (I hope Petko does not mind the plug)

I have just downloaded it and am starting to play with it. You can now view office documents in the built-in document/browser pane, and the editor has been improved - it now has rulers.
It will be interesting to see what else is new.

Caveat: I in no way am associated with Milenix - of course it has its limitations, but I just like its nice and clean look/feel

Normfall Manager 4 // Vista 64-bit problem solved - Frederick Wahl

Tue, 30 Jun 2009 19:04:52 GMT

Just received an email and update from Pascal Hassenpflug for Normfall Manager. It appears the Vista 64-bit problem has been solved. There have been some good comments made here about this program and anyone who might have held-out due to this issue should give it a try.

http://www.normfall.com/products-en/normfall-manager/overview.html

Frederick

Mac outliners, one-pane, modeless and general-purpose like text editors? - Derek Peschel

Tue, 30 Jun 2009 19:04:02 GMT

Hi David. Sorry for the delay -- I got the trial version of Opal and looked for my old notes (but I couldn't find any).

I may have been thinking of another program when I mentioned modes, but Opal does make a distinction between selecting an entire topic and selecting the entire contents of a topic. Is it always possible to select anything with the keyboard?

One thing I do know: with the right prefs, you can use return and the indentation keys to add a series of topics and their contents. But delete doesn't backspace across topics (that I've found), so right there Opal doesn't give text-editor-style behavior.

Incidentally, the help says to use System Preferences to set the keyboard shortcuts. Opal isn't on the list, however. Is that because I am running the trial version from downloaded files, rather than as an installed package?

-- Derek

== Note-Taker Software--The Missing Piece == - Stephen Zeoli

Tue, 30 Jun 2009 18:48:17 GMT

After checking the main MyInfo page, I realize the developer has not yet publicly announced the new release, so for the moment it is limited to those of us who have already have a license. I imagine the official public announcement will be made soon. Meanwhile, here is what the developer says about this new feature:

Link to paragraphs
Again, one of the top requests on our feedback page. MyInfo 4 is excellent at creating links to topics and documents, but many people wanted to be able to link to exact place in the document, especially when they have many long text documents inside MyInfo.

Now in MyInfo 5, this is easy like the other Copy Hyperlink commands. Just click on the exact spot where you want to link to and select Edit > Copy Link > Copy Link To This Paragraph. This will create an anchor in the text and copy the link to the Clipboard. Now, you can link to this spot of your document from any Windows application that supports hyperlinks.

== Note-Taker Software--The Missing Piece == - Stephen Zeoli

Tue, 30 Jun 2009 18:44:02 GMT

MyInfo 5.0 was just released and the developer says that it has this functionality now. I haven't checked it out, but trust this developer.

www.milenix.com

Steve Z.

Chuck wrote:
>Can someone here _Please tell me which Note-Taker (aka: Info-Manager, Outliner,
>Knowledge-Base) includes this ONE Feature ::
>
>In Paragraph 2 of Note-A you mention a
>subject Fully Discussed in the 24th Paragraph of Note-K; SO in Note-A's Paragraph 2
>you blithely insert a Hyperlink to JUMP to Paragraph 24 of Note-K.
>
>A bit more data::
>For years, I used the above precise Feature in AskSam, but I now Need to Migrate to a Two-
>(or more) Pane App that offers good formatting ability.
>
>PLEASE Sirs, What App Links
>to a Specific Paragraph in Another Note ??!
>
>(Note: Apps I have not yet tested for the
>above feature include MyBase & WhizFolders.)
>
>Your Help will be Greatly
>Appreciated !
>
>Chuck

what are acceptable licensing terms? - Stephen Zeoli

Tue, 30 Jun 2009 18:41:48 GMT

Dan,

You philosophy as a developer seems to me very sensible. My sense, and I could be wrong, is that people who cheat on licensing were never going to be paying customers anyway. That is, you're not actually losing money when they cheat, because they were never going to pay even if you'd made the license more restrictive. That may be small consolation for those people who do cheat.

But perhaps in a small way, those of us with CRIMP make up for them because we buy so much more software than we ever could possibly use!

Steve Z.

Dan Chartrand wrote:
>I'm a developer that has struggled with this question myself. How to keep paying
>customers from feeling the license terms are too restrictive, while still making
>enough income on purchased licenses to continue development.
>
>When I first started
>selling VueMinder Calendar, I went with the "easiest to enforce" approach, which was
>1 license per computer. However, I felt this was too restrictive, and seemed to be
>hurting sales rather than helping, so I switched to a more lenient policy of allowing a
>single user to install the same license (for their own personal use) on up to 5
>computers. After making the switch, I saw new orders increase by about 30%.
>
>Now,
>could someone install on 6 computers instead of the 5 specified in the license terms?
>Yes, and I wouldn't know about it and don't really have any way to enforce them not to
>(I'm not using DRM or any other invasive techniques). But honestly, I'd much rather
>someone pay for a personal license and install on their 6 computers (even if the limit
>is 5), than someone think the terms are too restrictive and resort to using a keygen or
>cracked version.

what are acceptable licensing terms? - Dan Chartrand

Tue, 30 Jun 2009 04:12:57 GMT

I'm a developer that has struggled with this question myself. How to keep paying customers from feeling the license terms are too restrictive, while still making enough income on purchased licenses to continue development.

When I first started selling VueMinder Calendar, I went with the "easiest to enforce" approach, which was 1 license per computer. However, I felt this was too restrictive, and seemed to be hurting sales rather than helping, so I switched to a more lenient policy of allowing a single user to install the same license (for their own personal use) on up to 5 computers. After making the switch, I saw new orders increase by about 30%.

Now, could someone install on 6 computers instead of the 5 specified in the license terms? Yes, and I wouldn't know about it and don't really have any way to enforce them not to (I'm not using DRM or any other invasive techniques). But honestly, I'd much rather someone pay for a personal license and install on their 6 computers (even if the limit is 5), than someone think the terms are too restrictive and resort to using a keygen or cracked version.