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ARIT geothermal and radiant heat?

Ralph in Fort Collins, CO — Mon, 13 Oct 2008 00:52:54 GMT

Dan,

Your Tetco system is definitely the same as mine. I thought maybe if you used 3/4" lines from the ground loops to the HP instead of 1" that it might have be effecting the pressure. Now, I am not sure about how much sediment might have gotten into your lines. Coming off of a well and with the discoloration you can see through the pex that could certainly be a possiblity. My lines are all 1" copper so I cannot see how the fluid might have changed color.

Looking at the front of your HP, there is a smaller access hatch in the lower right corner. Inside that hatch is the hi-pressure switch that I have had problems with. Like I said in the other posting, I will try to take a picture of it to post tomorrow when I get home. I'm also going to check the pressure on my system to see how it compares to yours.

Ralph

P.S. And yes, I am the Ralph in FC that you had posted to.

Average Price Per Square Foot

Ralph in Fort Collins, CO — Mon, 13 Oct 2008 00:27:26 GMT

Jeff,

Just a couple of thoughts. $114 per foot seems low. I know things are slow now and maybe contractors are very hungry. Building materials have certainly not come down in price so any discount is coming out of their pockets. I would make sure to check and double check references if you go that route. I live near you so I know that this housing crisis has certainly hit here. Many people are looking for work. Honestly, to answer your question, I don't think you can OB for 30% less than that here in Colorado.

As far as OB, I agree that you must be willing to do your homework. This process is all-consuming and will put an incredible strain on your time and relationships. There are thousands of decisions to make and you will run into countless "glitches". You have to be flexible and willing to compromise. Also, you need to decide how much of the work you are going to do yourself. To put it into perspective. It takes X amount of hours to build a house. If you do all of those hours yourself, those hours are spread out over a longer period of time. If you hire a crew those hours are divided by the number of workers you have. My house took 14 months because I did most of the work myself. I will hire out more of it next time.

By the way, I used a company called HomeWrights as a consultant instead of U-Build It. They are at www.homewrights.com

Hope that helps,

Ralph

ARIT geothermal and radiant heat?

Dan in Moscow, ID — Mon, 13 Oct 2008 00:10:24 GMT

Ralph,

Here is a picture of the heat pumps...they were not in the last post...I previously only included the outside manifold to the ground loops and one of the radiant floor manifolds (I have 3 of those).

The line in from the outside manifold to the heatpump is a 1" line (the white PEX I mentioned that has turned red-brown). You can see it in the picture below. It reduces to 3/4" right as it goes into the HP.

What concernes me about Grant's posting is the potential problem with sediment. It makes sense to me that it would be good to have a filter on each side of the heat exchanger (i.e. between outside manifold and HP and inside manifold(s) and HP) as there is a reasonable possibility that sediment could have entered either side of the closed loop when it was filled from our well.

The lower HP in the picture has a chiller option that could be used for cooling if connected to air, but I don't have that in place. So my system is a littler simpler than yours as it is only used for heating.

Are you the (correct) Ralph in FC that I asked about a couple of posts ago?

For now I have cut power to the HPs and am only running off the electric water heaters. They are mainly for storage as the hot water exits the HPs on its way to the radiant manifolds, but if it is above 40 degrees outside they can handle enough of the load by themselves. They would also come into play if it got too cold for the HPs to keep up as I have LOTs of PEX on the radiant side. So I need to get a solution in place ASAP because it is starting to dip below 38 at night here.

ARIT geothermal and radiant heat?

Ralph in Fort Collins, CO — Sun, 12 Oct 2008 23:34:19 GMT

Hi Dan,

I believe my system is a twin to yours. A water to water geothermal, a water to water radiant floor heating and a water to air cooling system. I have also had a problem with the high pressure cut out switch. What I discovered is that the switch itself was sticking and that only happens on the heating side of the system, not the A/C. That really is the only problem I have encountered. The unusual fix to my problem was to tighten the screw that mounts the hi-pressure cut out switch.

Now, that being said, it looks like in your pictures that the supply lines from your geothermal manifold to the heat exchanger are 3/4" lines. Is that correct? When I was installing my system I was told by the tech at ART that it was important to use 1" lines. Also, there are no filters in the system that I am aware of, other than the fiber filter for the forced air A/C.

I will take some pictures of my system tomorrow and post them so you can see the hi-pressure switch and the manifold.

Ralph

I'm Planning My Energy Efficient "Green" Home...

Grant in Jacksonville, AL — Sun, 12 Oct 2008 23:08:33 GMT

Once again, I just learned something new... at least to me ...

Whereas I was vaguely aware of the availability of T8 LED tubes to use in place of standard T8 flourescent tubes, I had no idea that they make LED "bulbs" that fit in a standard E27 screw-in socket.

It appears that I can put an LED "bulb" inside a standard Solatube fixture, instead of using a CFL "bulb." These bulbs are designed for standard AC 120V or 240V fixtures, and not necessarily DC power...

These are EXPENSIVE, but use exceptionally low wattage (5 watts for the 70 LEDs putting out 200 lumens) and emit very little heat into the home. From an environmental standpoint, they are not only energy-efficient, but they contain no mercury and last MUCH longer than other bulb types.

--------------------------

On a related note, whereas white light frequently attracts bugs, LED lights in other colors won't attract bugs in the same way. LED lights come in numerous colors including red, yellow, and blue, which can be excellent outdoor lights at night, providing atmosphere and visibility without attracting bugs. I will probably use colored LED lights on my porches.

I'm Planning My Energy Efficient "Green" Home...

Grant in Jacksonville, AL — Sun, 12 Oct 2008 22:29:28 GMT

Whereas CFL fixtures in the SolaTubes are an "okay" solution to night-time lighting needs, I really want to use low voltage LEDs that can someday be directly powered (no efficiency losses through an inverter) by the DC power generated by my future PV panels. Also, the LEDs generate significantly less heat, thereby reducing my cooling costs in the hot Alabama summers.

I was thinking that it should be fairly simple to drill holes in the flashing of the Solatubes and insert LEDs all around the flashing for a DIY "LED fixture" built into the Solatube.

BUT if I were to alter the solatubes in this manner, I would be creating an electrical light fixture without a NRTL safety certification, and I'd also lose any energy star compliance certification, and I'd have to really jump through hoops to pass electrical inspection...

Maybe I can convince Solatube of the wonderful market opportunity they are currently missing...

Or maybe I will just settle for installing separate LED fixtures.

regards,

Grant

I'm Planning My Energy Efficient "Green" Home...

Grant in Jacksonville, AL — Sun, 12 Oct 2008 21:57:04 GMT

Whereas I've been aware that there was a "debate" regarding the merits and demerits of closed-cell versus open-cell foam, I hadn't realized how potentially serious of a distinction this was until I Googled the topic today to study up and educate myself.

Whereas I had "liked" the concept of Icynene, and especially soy foam insulations, after reading many well-documented SERIOUS horror stories regarding moisture, mold, mildew, shrinkage (soy), and rot problems with open cell foam, I have decided that "IF" I use foam, it will be a rigid "closed cell" foam insulation with a "proven" track record of no moisture problems. Furthermore, I will get samples, submerge them in water and subject them to steam, and run a weight-gain analysis myself before I will trust ANY foam insulation for use.

All I can say is wow, that is some seriously scary stuff that has happened to some poor unfortunate home owners. And to think the sales pitch for icynene that I heard at the Green Building Show in Atlanta had me oh so convinced of the merits of that product.

Ideally, my insulated poured concrete walls, and my metal sip roof, can have penetrations sealed with a rigid water-proof closed cell foam system! We shall see.

regards,

Grant

The end of Owner Builder financing

Grant in Jacksonville, AL — Sun, 12 Oct 2008 21:47:18 GMT

I hadn't thought of how California laws are impacting you as an O-B. That mandatory 10 year warranty does put a HUGE liability on the "builder." I've heard from my California contractor customers how in large-scale developments, the lawyers routinely show up during the 9th year and go door-to-door making punch lists to go after the builders with a class-action suit if they don't agree to fix everything. Ergo, the cost o fbuilding goes up in California, in addition to more and higher cost permit fees than other parts of the country. Cost on top of cost, on top of cost... It's no wonder homes cost so much to build/buy in California.

With all other building loans in California essentially "securing" the condition of the home through the contractor's bonding company for 10 years, requiring a GM site supervisor to sign on the building permit helps to provide some additional loan security to the bank if the Owner-Builder is ever foreclosed upon, and the house has code compliance issues. It is overkill and it stinks, but I can see why the banks would do that based upon California law. If the bank can require it, and requiring it reduces the bank's risk, then why not? Maybe there is "some" bank serving California that doesn't require the site supervisor to sign the building permit???

This certainly "blows" for California O-B's though. If it is any consolation, if you hired a GC to build your house in California, you'd likewise pay this $42,000 as a pass-through "expense" (for his bond insurance premium, site supervisor payroll, etc.), that wouldn't be considered part of his "10% profit."

regards,

Grant

The end of Owner Builder financing

Ric in Mill Creek, WA — Sun, 12 Oct 2008 20:23:40 GMT

Pat,

Try these:

www.ownerbuilder101.com
or
www.loantobuild.com

Here in Seattle, BECU (Boeing Employees Credit Union) works through loantobuild, and that's where I'm working my financing at the moment. Great people, and they've not mentioned the GC subject yet.

Ownerbuilder 101 also has good owner builder financing available.

Good Luck!

-Ric

Chase

Pat in Arnold, CA — Sun, 12 Oct 2008 19:30:20 GMT

Update..the lowest rate for a GM Project Manager we've found in our area is 12% of the project amount. These banks are requiring their names to be on the permit for an owner/builder loan. Thats a $42,000 fee. Our budget can't support it and we don't know what we are going to do.

Pat

The end of Owner Builder financing

Pat in Arnold, CA — Sun, 12 Oct 2008 19:26:07 GMT

We are running in to the same problems with financing. Chase Bank told us they do owner/builder financing at 90% but require the Project Manager's name to be on the building permit with our name. Well... geeeze. That means they just became a GM on the project and their liability for 10 years for the house construction according our state law. That takes an hourly GM site supervior on an as needed basis on our project at $10,000 salary up to 12% of the project which is $42,000. Our budget can't handle that increase. Plus, every GM in the area wants a large percentage now because his name will have to be on the permit. I have yet to find a bank local or national that will do a 90% loan and the GM supervior's name not on the permit.

This is very discouraging and if don't... we won't be able to build in '09. We'll have to wait until the standards change again.

ARIT geothermal and radiant heat?

Grant in Jacksonville, AL — Sun, 12 Oct 2008 12:57:16 GMT

I'm in WAAAAYYY over my head on this one, I know less than diddly squat about geothermal heat pumps, because I've never owned one; so any advice from me is probably worth even less than you are paying for it.

With that disclaimer, any compressor needs to be protected from excess pressure. As I understand it, excess pressure can be caused by line restrictions, by fan motor failures, or by a clogged filter. If you are circulating air, you probably have an air filter at the cold air return that needs routine cleaning and possibly periodic replacement. Once when I was on the road for about 3 months straight with only 10 nights a month home, I had completely forgotten about our air filter. The AC subsequently cut-off because of the resulting pressure issue caused by the clogged air return. The reset switch would get it going again for a few days, but then it would kick off again. This was bad for the compressor, but it allowed my wife to keep the unit running until I got home, and then I determined the problem. After that, I taught my wife to help clean the air filter!

I hope your problem is just as inexpensive to fix, but I don't think so...

You could have something similar going on from "something" causing your pressure to rise and the high-pressure cut-off shutting down the unit to protect the compressor. With the higher pressure reading on the manifold and the apparent water fouling, it sounds like that could be the problem. I've never used a heat pump yet, so I don't know if they have a water filter. But you really need to find out the cause of the water fouling, because that is definitely not normal, and if your water is that fouled you probably also have a clogged water filter (assuming there is one). Either way, the high-pressure you are experiencing is an important "symptom" that can probably cause further damage to your system.

Note that in a quick Google search I found the following statement in the warranty section of Geostar's heat pump technical manual "The following are specifically excluded: ... Damage to or failure to the unit attributable to water borne solids or other contaminations causing the fouling of or damage to the evaporator and condenser plate heat exchangers." I've got an uncomfortable suspicion that this is "related" to your problems...

Regardless, you shouldn't keep turning the unit back on with the pressure too high or I believe you can do permanent and VERY expensive damage to the compressor as well. It sounds to me like you may already have "said" damage to the evaporator and condensor plate.

Good luck...

Maybe someone on OBB with direct geothermal maintenance experience can better address your question.

regards,

Grant

PEX tubing

Doug in Canyon Lake, TX — Sun, 12 Oct 2008 09:56:30 GMT

I used Kitec for my house and I have had 3 water breaks at joints during the past year. Plumber says Kitec is now banned in Texas and there is a class-action law suit in Neveda against it. Anyone else had problems with Kitec?

ARIT geothermal and radiant heat?

Dan in Moscow, ID — Sun, 12 Oct 2008 09:19:39 GMT

Not a silly question at all. The heatpump is a Tetco with a water-to-water heat exchanger. I have an exterior manifold (1st pic) servicing the geothermal runs and interior manifolds (2nd pic) servicing the radiant floor loops. No where in the system do I see a filter, nor do I remember hearing one discussed in the design of it. What might it look like? I will check with Nick at ARIT (now TERRASource) to see if it was designed into the system.

I have been working at getting a little air out of both sides of the heat exchanger, with just a little of the air coming out of the radiant floor side. I have not noticed any coming out of the geothermal loops. But compared to last year there has not been much air to come out (that locked up the HP last year so I thought it might be the same problem).

A couple other items to note are that the pressure guage on the exterior manifold typically reads about 40 psi. This morning it had jumped to 70 psi.

The water lines coming from the exterior manifold to the HP are white PEX so I can somewhat see the water/glycol mix in them. Of interest is that when I first installed the system the water was a clear-blue and I could even see air bubbles when they formed in the line just outside the HP. Over time the water color has changed to a red-brown and it appears as though it has coated the interior of the PEX. I have a couple theories about this color change, but mention it in case it would be a sign of a problem.

Because I installed the system, started it up, tuned it, and maintain it myself I really need to learn all about it. I live out in the sticks and getting service here would be somewhat difficult.

Your help and insight is very much appreciated!!!

PEX tubing

Justin in Chandler, AZ — Sat, 11 Oct 2008 14:52:47 GMT

Dan,

Thanks for the response. The City is making me get a certified person to install the pex. I called Viega and after a few calls found a local certified plumber. He seems willing to help me out with the inspections so I can use his certification for my inspections and he said he would lend me his tools as well.

I originally had a tank planned near the second manifold location but since we are trying to get the solar water guys to get us set up for that I wanted all the water heated in one location (garage) and an additional tank next to the solar tank. The solar tank can preheat the water and then it won't take as much when it goes into the electric tank.

That day the plumber told me that I couldn't use the Viega system (all in Spanish) I wanted to hit something. Some people think there is only one way to do things and if they don't know it - it must not exist . . .

PEX tubing

Dan in Sonora, CA — Sat, 11 Oct 2008 10:21:00 GMT

Hi Justin,

I do have two separate manifolds, sort of. The main manifold is in very close proximity to most of the fixtures, and in very close proximity to the main water heater. This makes all of the hot water runs short.
The Master bath, however, is about 60' from the main manifold. So yes, I did run a 1" line from the main manifold to the master bath. Instead of a small manifold, we did conventional plumbing runs with T's, etc because there was not enough fixtures there to justify a manifold.
As for hot water in that detached area, we decided on a small tank less unit. This negated the need for a recirculating pump, and the jacuzzi instant heater. It also has a remote keypad that can set the exact, desired water temp. A unit big enough for a big master bath runs around $700- $1,000. Since the master bath is not used very often, a tank less is ideal. The main house water heater is a tank unit, as we have three kids it is more efficient.
I think a recirculating pump or a separate heater would definitely be in order for your installation. 60' of 1" line is a lot of water to push.
I have not run my system yet, we're texturing drywall now. As such I can't give you feedback on how well it works, but I'm very confident in the design.
Good luck and let me know if you have any more questions!
(PS- Go to Home Depot to rent the compressing tools! $8 per day)
Dan

I'm Planning My Energy Efficient "Green" Home...

Grant in Jacksonville, AL — Sat, 11 Oct 2008 09:14:28 GMT

I just found an internet posting from Nick Pine that describes the calculations I will need to get my solar sauna temperature into the appropriate range.

I have planned on using water barrels under the benches in the sauna room as heat storage batteries. A good suggestion I picked up from this posting is to use a fan blowing under the benches and through the barrels to "rais(e) heat flow rates and lower air film thermal resistances," thereby making the water barrels function more efficiently.

Turns out my "solar sauna" which I thought was a relatively unique idea, is really a modification of the "solar closet" idea. There is nothing new in the universe!!! <grin>. [Thankfully, because that means the thermal calculations for a proper design have already been determined for me!]

regards,

Grant

I'm Planning My Energy Efficient "Green" Home...

Faye in Marseilles, IL — Fri, 10 Oct 2008 19:30:18 GMT

Thanks Grant , I am in central Il. and my 11 acres sits at a higher elevation than most of the land around . They are building quite a few wind farms in my area - which is what gave me the idea . I am thinking of using the horizontal type on an area of my property that is not too close to the house . Our electrical rate here is quite high and my entire house is electric . I saw that episode on "living with Ed " - it was the one with Jay Leno , right ? I did not think about pre- wiring but maybe I should check that out now because my electrician is starting in a couple weeks . Thanks for the info. Faye

I'm Planning My Energy Efficient "Green" Home...

Grant in Jacksonville, AL — Fri, 10 Oct 2008 17:54:17 GMT

Faye,

Wikipedia is always a good jumping off point for research.

Somewhere in the forums I previously posted a website that has a nationwide wind zone map. You should look at the Illinois Wind Resource Map. You need a wind power classification of 2 or higher to generally be viable. Most of Illinois is a 3 with some regions of 2. You should definitely be looking at wind power as an option.

If you have reliable 5+ mph winds in your area, wind power is one of the most cost-effective power sources available (micro-hydro with a good creek being about the only thing competitive with wind power).

There are two primary options with wind power: horizontal axis or vertical axis. Horizontal axis are more widely used, generally generate more power per available wind, but generally must be mounted on a tall pole away from the home and can be noisy. Vertical axis turbines are an option for rooftop mounting "IF" you have a sturdy structure and "IF" the vibration is not more than the structure can handle.

If you are going to use a roof top vertical axis turbine, pre-wire to save installation costs later and plan your structure to handle the forces created by the wind turbine.

HGTV's "Living with Ed" did a show on vertical axis wind turbines.

regards,

Grant

The end of Owner Builder financing

Ric in Mill Creek, WA — Fri, 10 Oct 2008 17:24:14 GMT

Just to add an update to this from my project.
I "was" going to use Timberland Bank.
We had the paperwork done, the underwriters approved it.
My credit is excellent, and the house appraised for nearly double my construction costs!

The day before we were going in to sign final papers, the bank president shut down all construction loans on jumbo loans. As we were in that catagory, ours was shut down.

We are now starting over with BECU. So far it's going fine, but it meant starting from scratch with the lending package again. I'm pushing hard to get them to use my existing appraisal though. I see no point in spending $400-600 to do it again just so it's on their form.

The BECU loan looks promising. I liked the Timberland Bank draw process better, but the interest at BECU is lower.
I'm also considering contacting a broker that was referred to me.
Getting hard to get anything done lately.