POLITICS UK

Was the UK right to intervene in Libya? 29 May 2011

2012-01-04T07:07:00.000-08:00

Politics UK

Should the UN try to slow the process of war?

Libya: Britain prepares 'bunker buster' bombs for assaults | World news | guardian.co.uk

www.guardian.co.uk

Paveway bombs weighing 2,000lbs to be loaded onto RAF jets for possible strikes on Gaddafi command centres

S.H.

'slow the process of war'? 'intervention turning into war'? - the un resolution states that intervention is to protect the civilians of Libya, you cant do that without getting rid of the Ghaddaffi dictatorship. As soon as we engaged it was war against the regime - you cant go and slap him on the wrist and say 'dont do it again you naughty boy'

A.J.B.W.

wait a minute S.H.. The UN resolution says NOTHING about regime change. Which would be illegal anyway.

A.J.B.W.

Here you go S.H., Here is resolution 1973 in relation to the NFZ

"No Fly Zone

6. Decides to establish a ban on all flights in the airspace of the Libyan

Arab Jamahiriya in order to help protect civilians;

7. Decides further that the ban imposed by paragraph 6 shall not apply to

flights whose sole purpose is humanitarian, such as delivering or facilitating the

delivery of assistance, including medical supplies, food, humanitarian workers and

related assistance, or evacuating foreign nationals from the Libyan Arab Jamahiriya,

nor shall it apply to flights authorised by paragraphs 4 or 8, nor other flights which

are deemed necessary by States acting under the authorisation conferred in

paragraph 8 to be for the benefit of the Libyan people, and that these flights shall be

coordinated with any mechanism established under paragraph 8;

8. Authorizes Member States that have notified the Secretary-General and

the Secretary-General of the League of Arab States, acting nationally or through

regional organizations or arrangements, to take all necessary measures to enforce

compliance with the ban on flights imposed by paragraph 6 above, as necessary, and

requests the States concerned in cooperation with the League of Arab States to

coordinate closely with the Secretary General on the measures they are taking to

implement this ban, including by establishing an appropriate mechanism for

implementing the provisions of paragraphs 6 and 7 above,

9. Calls upon all Member States, acting nationally or through regional

organizations or arrangements, to provide assistance, including any necessary overflight approvals, for the purposes of implementing paragraphs 4, 6, 7 and 8 above;

10. Requests the Member States concerned to coordinate closely with each

other and the Secretary-General on the measures they are taking to implement S/RES/1973 (2011)

4 11-26839

paragraphs 4, 6, 7 and 8 above, including practical measures for the monitoring and

approval of authorised humanitarian or evacuation flights;

11. Decides that the Member States concerned shall inform the SecretaryGeneral and the Secretary-General of the League of Arab States immediately of

measures taken in exercise of the authority conferred by paragraph 8 above,

including to supply a concept of operations;

12. Requests the Secretary-General to inform the Council immediately of any

actions taken by the Member States concerned in exercise of the authority conferred

by paragraph 8 above and to report to the Council within 7 days and every month

thereafter on the implementation of this resolution, including information on any

violations of the flight ban imposed by paragraph 6 above;"

Please show me where it says that regime change is the objective?

J.R.

Sorry but regime change was always on the agenda, even before Res: 1973. Furthermore, the rebels were being armed before the NFZ with the US's full knowledge. All Res: 1973 does is legitamise NATO's interference in a civil war.

S.F.

I support the intervention, but yes let's not be hypocrits, the only way out is to make sure Gaddaffi leaves, isn't it?

M.R.

Alan....oh...you are such a pedant!......If the West want to shoot Gadaffi........surely, thats up to them.......not pansy organisations like the UN......pffffff

S.F.

lol mark

A.J.B.W.

I was reading a book last night..(it had pictures on it..and written in crayon).

The Author argues that the present situation where we have unpopular legal war with civilian casualties is a worse policy than the cold war policy of illegal killings of despots.

Now I am not advocating the writers opinion, but if the real motivation is regime change, couldn't the West have helped Gaddaffi have an unfortunate "accident" rather than an unpopular war that has cost countless innocent lifes?

M-H.G.

I can't help wondering why you are supporting the intervention So Fi, it seems to go against the grain of what you generally support, is it because the French are heavily involved this time??

J.R.

A.J.B.W.

I think the relatives of the 2 women and 12 children killed by a NATO airstrike in Afghanistan last night may well agree with him...

S.F.

I was supporting the intervention in Iraq one as well, just because I hate fascists and dictators, again I recommend 'what's left' from Nick Cohen on the subject.

A.J.B.W.

So Fi, would you have supported the assassination of Gadaffi?

I think..ultimately, I would have. It would have caused much less bloodshed in the long wrong.

I.A.

The spotlight is off Libya. The public have lost interest. The cat's away. It's time for the mice to start dropping bunker busters! Which are actually quite expensive. And probably made by an American weapons manufacturing corporation. Like the one that ran our Census. We may be in the middle of austerity measures but - like banks - we always have money for weapons manufacturing corporations.

M-H.G.

Long wrong Alan??

M-H.G.

I can hardly believe what I am reading, it is ok for the West to conduct assassinations of leaders they don't like, to kill innocent people in doing so. I can see that all of you have your children safe in bed tonight without the danger of a "friendly" bomb dropping on them!!! Shame on you warmongers.

M.C.

MArie, do you also have an opinion on how the passengers and their families thought when they boarded an airplane one cold night many years ago. Gadaffi is a sponsor of international terrorism, the sooner he is killed the better for all, including me in not having to read all this pacifist nonsence

A.J.B.W.

Marie, Sorry Im not explaining myself well. Long night.

Firstly, I do not think that our forces should be involved in Libya. I believe that we were far to quick to dismiss diplomacy.

This decision of "intervention" would be a noble idea if it is for humanitarians reasons. But it seems to me that humanitarian interest are being overtaken by the thought of regime change. We are, in my opinion, taking sides in a civil war.

Now the book I was reading was saying that illegal killing, though immoral, was a better scenario that a long unpopular war where 0000s of innocent civilian die.

I don't advocate that opinion but I was wondering if Gaddafi had been assassinated, would there have been less bloodshed in Libya?

All I know is that JAw,Jaw is better than War,War.

M-H.G.

So Mick it is ok to go and kill innocent civilians? That makes us better than Gadaffi? I am not convinced that Gadaffi was behind Lockerbie and Iam not the only one. And it has taken over 20 years to wake up and smell the coffee? Do us a favour Mick and go to bed!

A.J.B.W.

You know Mick, right at the beginning I thought that we were being deliberately nice<if you know what I mean>.

We should have had been far more decisive.

Either stay out of it all together.

Or get rid of Gadaffi.

The NFZ was always going to be a recipe for disaster. It is impossible to insert that military pressure from the air alone. Air campaign causes extensive collateral damage( I HATE that phase). It was always going to blow back in our face.

I would say that there is an argument that the assassination of Gaddafi would have stopped a lot of the deaths that have happened since our intervention.

M.C.

You are not convinced he was behind Lockerbie ???, what planet are you from woman !!!!!!!

M.C.

I just hope that one day your daughter or grandchild are not caught up in one of Gadaffi’s sponsored awaydays

M-H.G.

The Middle East is full of tyrants, why on earth do we single out some and not others? Collateral damage means innocent people are killed, it is atrocious. I don't see any difference between a child killed by a "terrorist" action and one killed by "legal" bombing. I dare to challenge any of you who think there is a difference to go and talk to the parents.

A.J.B.W.

I don't think anyone is saying different Marie.

M-H.G.

I hope Mick that my daughter and grandson are never caught in any act of violence be it Gadaffi sponsored or American indulgence.

M-H.G.

You could also think of ways to remove the causes of "terrorism". And never forget that someone's terrorist is someone's else hero, always has been.

M-H.G.

Unfortunately Alan, I think there is outrage when Westerners are killed but a kind of detachement when it happens to the rest of the world.

A.J.B.W.

Some people think it is a game of Cowboys and Indians. They have no reality of what is happening.

War is horrible. There are never any winners..only those who have lost more.

But to prevents mass bloodshed, could you condone and illegal killing? (Specifically in Libya).

In respect of terrorism, the only long term answer is diplomacy and self-determination without outside pressures.

I don't believe that ANY nation can defeat a terrorist organisation militarily without dialogue between both sides.

M.C.

Only you Marie would read into this that the killing of innocents is condoned, but you miss the point that terrorists don't think similarly. Ideally we need to find Gadaffi and his kind walking alone in the desert so we can shoot them on the spot, but unfortunately they hide behind innocents, but it still doesnt detract from the fact these people still need eradicating

A.J.B.W.

Mick, would you have preferred, rather than an humanitarian NFZ but a more decisive attack on Gadaffi Army and Gadaffi himself. Using quick reactioon Forces to neutralise Gaddaffis HQ and support system, then quickly leaving Libya.

M.C.

In short Alan, yes

A.J.B.W.

I think that we took the "middle ground" and ended up causing more problems.

M.C.

The Bin Laden thing shows its possible, but of course each mission is different. I would not support similar in the other Arab uprisings though, except Iran if that ever kicks off. Gadaffi had to go years ago, the time is now right, simply kill him and get over it

M.R.

Mick......so you would not bat an eyelid if AlQueda took out Camboy?....Don't tell me....that's different.....As A.J.B.W.pointed out earlier there is no UN mandate for the aggression that is now proposed......the West are, once again, exceeding their authority, unless they go back to the UN......imo

M.R.

Marie.....you have been a voice of sanity.........we should never have got involved in Libya.......it is a civil war in a country we do not "understand".......oh, but it does have oil........durrrrr

J.R.

Mick. The only difference between terrorists like the alleged Bin Laden, or groups like Hamas, and state terrorist states like Britain, the US, and Israel, is the size of their arms budget! They have AK-47's and we have Apache attack helicopters. They have RPG's and we have Tomahawk cruise missiles. Depending on where one stands one could argue that the UN Security Council is the greatest terrorist organisation in the world...

Why don't you stop trying to guilt trip people by bringing up the Lockerbie bombing when the alleged mission in Libya is protecting civilians, unless of course, you agree that the mission actually has nothing to do with protecting civilians and is really about revenge, regime change, and control over the future of Libyan oil.

How many more people have to die as collateral damage to western objectives? Your approval of action against Iran just highlights your ignorance because the Islamist regime in Iran is a product of the West's interference and it's lust for oil. Oddly enough BP are involved in both!

M-H.G.

Where are the headquarters of the UN situated?

A.W.

Can any of the so called pacifists offer a long term strategy for the Libyans who want stability that does not involve regime change?

M-H.G.

What has it got to do with us Ashley, are we the policemen of the world? Have we got the moral high ground?

I.A.‎

1) Help Libyans You may accidentally bomb a few but you can't make an omlet without breaking some eggs.

2) Get rid of an international trouble causer.

3) Change the regime of an oil producing country to one which owes a debt of gratitude to the west.

4) Drop bombs and make money for weapons manufacturing corporations.

Win, win, win, win. Simples.

A.J.B.W. ‎

1) Help Libyans You may accidentally bomb a few but you can't make an omlet without breaking some eggs.

Those "eggs" are people sons, daughters, father and mothers. But we are making an omelette so who cares who dies...

2) Get rid of an international trouble causer.

Cameron or Sarkozy.well I'd rather if we done it through the ballot...oh you mean Gaddaffi! Nothin like a wee bit of international murder to sooth 'em damn locals.

4) Drop bombs and make money for weapons manufacturing corporations.

You really are a twisted individual.

Simples

R.F.

Ian I really hope you are being intentionally provokative with those comments. War is not a game. Peoples lives are involved

M-H.G.

I have a feeling that Ian is being sarcastic, at least I hope so!

A.J.B.W.

Ashley,

Can any of the so called pacifists offer a long term strategy for the Libyans who want stability that does not involve regime change?

Well the way I see it we had two initial choices. Stay out of it but use diplomatic action or two "use the military stick"

Since we decided to use the stick, I would have preferred a direct hit against Gadaffi and his support network. Using both SF, RRF, and the RAF.This should have been a short operation. Once Gadaffi is not in a position to cause more deaths, get ALL the forces out.

But we choice the middle ground of using a NFZ for humanitarian reasons. As soon as "humanitarian" reason was said, it put our forces as a disadvantage as there is no significant objective. And it seemed that we are takins sides in a civil war, killing civilians from both sides.

Using air force to control the battle on the ground wil,l historically, cause more civilian casualties.

Our Government should have been honest on WHY we were there. Then from there, an operation could have been started that protected the civilian rather than killing them.

My opinion is that we should have stayed out of it.

M-H.G.

We are there because of the oil reserve stop pretending otherwise.

I.A.‎

"War is not a game. Peoples lives are involved"

It's not a game. It's business. Lives are only an issue if they care. I urge you to draw your own conclusions.

A.W.

Spend £3m a day to profit from oil. Clever.

A.J.B.W.

Marie,

I don't even think it is for oil. I believe that this was Political. Certain aspect of western Governments have been waiting a long time time to get "revenge" on Gaddaffi. This was their opportunity and they grasped it.

Ian, you are trying too hard to be controversial.

M-H.G.

Alan, the oil plays a major part. But you are right, Sarkosy for instance has problems at home and is up for re-election next year or not, in fact I wouldn't be surprised if the West had not instigated this " Arab Spring".

M-H.G.

Ashley, the long term implication in obtaining cheap(ish) oil is worth it. We are big guzzlers!

M-H.G.

Oh and Libya has liquid gas as well!

I.A.‎

"Ian, you are trying too hard to be controversial."

I'd prefer if you didn't tell me what I am and am not trying to be. Thanks :-). I believe we are really in Libya for the reasons I gave. A government's good reasons for doing something are not necessarily what we would call good reasons. That's my view. Take it or leave it. But please don't patronize me.

A.W.

We already had cheap oil from the Gaddafis.

30 May 2011 at 10:40 · Like

I.A.‎

"We already had cheap oil from the Gaddafis"

So your reasoning is that because we were getting oil from Libya (I don't know how cheap it was) putting a fresh regime in place indebted to the west would not be a good thing?

Not picking a fight with you Ashley. Just want to get your reasoning straight in my head.

A.W.

Ian: I'm glad you asked the question rather than make the statement. I feel that any humanitarian mission in Libya was and is incompatible with leaving Gaddafi and his crime family in power. Any arguments I have made about oil simply do not interest me and were made to counteract any conspiratorial arguments against the liberation of Libya.

A.J.B.W.

A.W."I feel that any humanitarian mission in Libya was and is incompatible with leaving Gaddafi and his crime family in power. "

Can I ask you a question? Would you have preferred, rather than an humanitarian NFZ but a more decisive attack on Gadaffi Army and Gadaffi himself. Using quick reactioon Forces to neutralise Gaddaffis HQ and support system, then quickly leaving Libya.

I agree with you that this being a "humanitarian" mission is more a hinderance rather than a help.

A.W.

The immediate priorities should be to protect Libyan citizens who are under fire on the front line. But ultimately I think rather than a gradual increase of pressure they should've gone in with the bunker busters months ago.

J.R.

Yes, of course, this is about controlling Libyan but it's a lot more than that, it's about the democratisation of the world, globlisation, and one world governance. People are only looking at the short term view of so say 'protecting civilians', which of course, unless you are extremely naive, means removing Gaddafi.

The long term view is quite different and as Ian suggests involves having an oil rich nation with a new democratic govt indebted to the West. No doubt, as seen at the G8 meeting last week in respect of Egypt and Tunisia, aid money will be given to help the Libyans back onto their feet. Obama will be saying "we support democracy but don't dictate outcomes" or some self righteous siht like that, and the IMF and the corporate world move in to ensure they all get a slice of the cake.

Through this the Libyan people will be grateful and will embrace their new democracy with vigor. They will believe in freedom and talk of their new found rights. With western assistance their economy will grow as they join the 'market' and a thriving new democracy has been realised. Then one day they will wake up and realise that it was all a dream, and find that the aid money came with strings attached, they are indebted to banks and struggling to keep pace with the interest payments, their economy flatlines before going into recession, and then the IMF steps in to bail them out.

Bye bye democracy, it was fun while it lasted...

Cheap & Healthy Food. Is it possible?

2012-01-02T14:40:00.000-08:00

Mi.C

Its very easily achieved, or are people far too lazy or worse, simply plain ignorant ?

Drive promotes cheap healthy food

www.bbc.co.uk

A new effort to convince families in England that they can eat healthily on a budget is beginning.

R.F.

Hi Mick, Do you mind if I also post this on PoliticsUK England as well

D.B.

Far too lazy! It is also a fact that unhealthy food can be cheaper than healthy food. I could easily feed my family on crap for less than a fiver, but no way could I do a "proper" meal for less than that.

Ri.F.

Debs has a very very good point

M.C.

Why so negative, Mick?

S.S.

Debs, I am not sure how many you are feeding but I bet you could cook shepards pie for less than a fiver.

C.N.

The Tories criticised Labour for encouraging a "Nanny State".

Diane Abbot says that the Tories are simply pandering to their friends in big business.

However, I say... "If people are too dumb to work these things out for themselves, surely that's natural selection?" ;O)

M.C.

Should people need to work it out for themselves?

C.N.

Debs - I trained as a chef in Spain and can easily make a healthy two course meal for four on £5...

A.K.

I did shepards pie for 5 adults and two children...the mince alone cost 7pounds 50p....I could have got cheaper mince but it would be far more fatty which would not be so healthy....Potatoes are expensive now also....It must easiliy cost more than ten pounds and then there is the fuel for cooking....

M.C.

I imagine restaurants can get much better deals on ingredient costs than the average person can, Chris.

C.N.

£7.50 Anita? Blimey. I can buy enough prime mince for 6 people for £4 from my local butcher - and the lean meat is cut and minced in front of me. Maybe the supermarkets aren't as cheap as they claim? *shock horror*

C.N.

Mark - people manage to work out when to wipe their backsides and when to sleep etc. Surely what to eat, how much and when shouldn't be too much of a stretch? ;O)

R.F.

Mince is expensive, but a neccessary cooking resource

Mi.C

Debs, you need to go buy veg with mud on, its really cheaper than Tesco :lol.

I could feed a familiy of 4 or possibly more with Shepards pie and 2 veg, for around £6. Thats less than £1.50 per serving.

Its cheap, healthy, but requires some imagination, limited skill, and know how.

M.C.

Are there still butchers in business? I thought the supermarkets had killed them off.

A.K.

Chris I did get it form my local co-op they do tend to be more expensive but it is good meat and very little fat....Best give me the name of your local butcher......

R.F.

I have a good one near me. If your passing Birmingham

M.C.

So the high street is where it's at for better value. I guess convenience of supermarkets does come at a price.

C.N.

I don't work in a restaurant Mark - I'm just a humble home consumer as are most of us. Anita - I can't pronounce the name of my local butcher! LOL

M.C.

Would high street butchers have capacity to deal with demand if everyone stopped using supermarkets I wonder.

S.S.

Plenty of butchers out there Mark.

R.F.

Should always shop local if you have the opportunity. Supports your shops. Hopefully their source local on the whole so less miles on the food.

Get much less processed goods and live healthier.

I fail to do this far too much. . . but I know it is the right thing and do try from time to time

Mi.C

In my small town we have 1 x largish Tesco Supermarket, 3 x Tesco Express, 1 x Lidl, and 2 x family butchers.

In the surrounding area with a 5 mile radius there are at least 4 farm shops

The scope is endless

M.C.

Does everyone have time to get food from the multiple high street sources or do they have little choice but to rely on supermarkets?

R.F.

It's not laziness, just bad habits, and the desire to cut corners where possible to relieve a bit of the pressure on people's lives.

Mi.C

And keep a few chooks, cheap to feed and year round supply of eggs, and we also are totally self sufficient in veg and salads in the summer months.

So anyone with a garden, clear the crap out, get off your arse, and make it work for you, but that does require effort.

No excuse what-so -ever to those unfortunate not to have jobs at the moment, they have all the time in the world to do such things Mark

R.F.

What did we do before supermarkets?

M.C.

Richard, to my knowledge we had thriving high streets before the supermarkets dominated.

Mick, as you said, that's great for people with gardens, sadly not everyone does. Perhaps we need to expand on allotments a lot more.

R.F.

Are allotments over subscribed at the moment? (I genuinely don't know)

S.S.

Richard, before supermarkets we shopped in the high street, or in rural areas, where I live, we had a mobile buthers, mobile greengrocers and a small local shop where you could buy just about everything. I have to add that I am as old as methusalah by the way.

M.C.

http://www.allotment.org.uk/articles/Allotment-History.php

"Decline in Allotment Numbers

Following the peak of 1,400,000 in 1943 there was a sharp decline in allotment provision to around 500,00 in the 1970s. The decline continued during the 1970s but at a much slower rate. During the 1970s there was a huge upsurge in interest in self-sufficiency and home food production epitomised by the television series The Good Life which ran from 1975 to 1978.

The rate of decline again increased encouraged by the continuing increase in land and housing costs, which created an incentive to hard pressed local authorities to sell allotment land for high prices to housing developers.

Current Situation

By 1996 there were around 297,000 plots available and, although definite figures do not appear available, since then the rate of decline appears to have decreased whilst at the same time there has again been an upsurge of interest in growing food crops. Concerns about genetic modification of foodstuffs, chemical pollution and contamination of our food and the desire for the ultimate in freshness has seen empty plots filled and waiting lists appear for sites that previously had high vacancy rates.

It is possible that this increase in demand combined with a willingness to demand provision of allotments as allowed for under statute will see numbers rise from present levels."

Allotment History, A Brief History of Allotments in the UK

www.allotment.org.uk

A brief explanation of what an allotment is and the history of allotments in the UK

R.F.

I have to say I mainly shop in supermarkets because they are convienient and I honestly find it enjoyable (in comparison to smaller shops - not that i like shopping at all).

I make a point at shopping in local shops at the cost of my time sometimes to support the community and I like to have a local line of shops.

However I am not sure this is the right motivation. Local shops need to improve with the modern times.

M.C.

So looks like currently high demand.

R.F.

So appears you are right. More allotments would easy be filled. Then that would be a good thing to campaign for as it would promote better lifestyles

R.B.

Anita Aldi do a lean Steak Mince for £2.49 for 500g and it hardly has any fat and i Think lidl will do similar ! co-op are one of the most over expensive places in my opinion !

Mi.C

Overall they are Richard, sometime with waiting lists years ahead

Mi.C

Mark, veggies and salad grow in pots and buckets which will fit on the smallest patio or back yard

Mi.C

Herbs will happily grow on windowsills

M.C.

Would that be enough to come anywhere near self self-sufficiency, Mick?

R.F.

I do know a person who grows a lot of their food in a allotment. I often get given some as they are very proud of it.

Still I need steak in my life and I won't be keeping herd of cows

Mi.C

No-one is suggesting self-sufficiency, you need a Hugh FW mentality to achieve that and a lot of land.

But what we do is enough to cut our costs significantly during the growing season, and in an estate garden !!.

The chooks are year round providers, they could offer more if we also ate them, but we chose not to

R.B.

Well Ive just applied on-line for an allotment so just waiting to hear back fingers Crossed !

R.F.

I have a monsterous garden so I may just make my own allotment this year.

A.L.

before the agricultural revolutiojn the land was divided into strips, it was grossly inefficent way of producing food, hence the revolution. turning the country into a wasteland of allotments would be a backward step. we need to get producers to produce better food and stop the supermarkests controlling the producers and the cost. it is possible to make good nutritious food at a reasonable cost, but we really need to educate people about ingredients and how to use them..

R.B.

we have a greggs 'bakerey outlet' where they sell the stuff for about half price you can get 3 small loaves for 90p and most of their pies and pasties etc you get 2 for between 85p and £1.20 ..not the most having said that steak bake with veg mash n gravy..not the worst meal in the world

A.L.

and we need to get rid of obsession with meat, which is a very inefficent way of producing nutrition

R.R.

Are they taking the micky ? Ainslie harriet telling us how to cook for under a fiver !

I cant bear to watch nigella jump into her black taxi , Popping down to tesco express to spend 30 quid on just seasoning .

When they can tell us how to make a family meaL For under a pound then ill listen !

J.S.

slimming world reccomend the bags of ready cooked frozen chicken from iceland and other foods which are quite economical and other stuff. I would love an allotment but as they are now quite trendy they are over subscribed : ( ...i dont have a garden but a courtyard n do try and grow as much as i can s it's a natural suntrap. I buy the veg off the reduced shelf to save pennys and would love some chickens but dont think my neighbours would lol. It is possible to eat well at a low price. My weakness tho is not drugs or alcohol but homemade treats and jaffa cakes

M-H.G.

But would the ready cooked frozen chicken from Iceland be free range Jayne because I couldn't bear to eat battery ones! I have seen with my own eyes what they do to battery hens.

R.B.

There's a Ban Coming in on battery hens not sure when though or how much better the alternative is .

J.S.

I dont know marie.....i suppose you could get free range. The waiting for an allotment in my area is 2 to 3 years...good job i have me name down i could get it before im 50 lol

C.S.

i don't buy meat i buy Quorn cheaper less fat and ultimately tasty. The local MIND group run an allotment co-op where i buy all my veg. I cook every single day. All of these things i consider myself VERY fortunate with and would never assume that others have the same luxuries.

Mick seems to have (yet again) strong feelings about this cooking from scratch thing so maybe Mick you could 'get on your bike' and show some less fortunate than you the basics?

R.B.

Many people seem to believe its cheaper to use jars of sauces and rubbish thinking it's cheaper ie to cook a chilli 1 jar of sauce about a quid.. replace that jar with a couple tins of tomatoes some chilli powder and herbs there you go..It may cost a bit more to buy the chilli powder and herbs but then they last a lot longer so in the long run it works out cheaper

M-H.G.

My daughter does 12 hours shifts and I doubt that she would find the energy or the time to cook from scratch everyday as well as looking after a toddler. Fortunately, she has me who has all the time in the world to cook from scratch!

J.S.

I do that robert make my own sauces....quark makes a good sauce/dip/topping

C.S.

Robert your point is brilliant my friend ! But tomatoes and chillies are well easy to grow inside/outside/window boxes and without all those dam chemicals in them they taste nicer too. However we need supermarkets as coffee for me is a crucial ingredient of life and locally i can only buy this wonderful delicacy in the supermarket.

C.S.

whats quark?

R.B.

TBH I Find cooking some simple things such as spag bol are just as quick and easy to prepare from scratch than use a jar of sauce

J.S.

Fat free soft cheese...mix a few herbs n garlic in then stir into pasta...yum

C.S.

All the jars of sauce i have ever looked at seem to have sugar in them or salt so i have no idea of the taste-how do they compare Robert?

R.R.

Making from scratch is the best , Sauces like described is the best way , Tomatoes are easy to grow . Making bread is so easy as is pizza doe , oatcakes , Even mince from chuck I mince at home ,Though cake making is a chore and i restrict that to Birthdays , But its so easy to make flapjacks and put em in as your sheperds pie is doing .

Though I feel like Mrs bridges in upstairs downstairs at times , You look at the stuff in the supermarket freezers and know u cant go back cause they aint worth a fart !

C.S.

lol Robb feel free to visit me anytime!

C.S.

Would there be anywhere on this page to swap/share wholesome cheap recipes? Or is food not political?

R.R.

A recipe corner would be excellent , Also brewing since Duty is political , Though I dont endorse Distilling officially !

Mi.C

I have 3 freezers full of stocks (animal and vegetable) soups of numerous kinds, stews, remnants of frozen summer veg from last year, chili con-carne, mince for shepherds pie or mash etc etc etc.

Using time as an excuse is a very lame and pathetic one.

One day's cooking in bulk all of the above, will last for months, and on the day, only needs a bit of thawing and preparation.

However, anyone unsure how to achieve this, simply do as I did, LEARN HOW TO DO IT for yourself

M.C.

Nice that you have space for and could afford 3 freezers.

C.S.

Community minded as ever then Mick (*tuts at the utter disgrace of selfish self righteousness from the 'older generation')

Robb will you talk to our Alan J B Wyllie see if it can happen? Be a nice thing to share something productive i think

C.S.

LOL i hope they all have an A rating Mick

J.S.‎

3??...how many people do ya feed

C.S.

Me or Mick ? or Robb the master baker? (SORRY ROBB COULDN@T RESIST XX)

Mi.C

Mark, please dont act ignorant all your life, you do yourself a huge disservices.

Biut as you clearly havent a clue or any idea what your on about, let me explain as simply as I can

2 x fridge freezers, 1 is ten years old, the other second hand, 1 x chest freezers 8 years old, all are in the garage .

And you may be surprised to learn, a lot of people do actually have a garage or shed for such modern day bits of kit.

J.S.

I have neither.....i manage to fit all mine in one fridge/freezer.....bet you get the random frozen ice clump that was once a chip alot in yours lol

R.R.

Im with Mick on this but I wonder how much of the contribution time the beloved Mrs constable plays a part in all this , As Mick spends his much spare time giving us his wonderfull Pearls .

Though the thing with all this is it kinda defeats the object storeing all this in multiple freezers with all that lecci .

We need to start looking in to pickleing , and salting and burying for storage more , arts that seem to have disappeared .

Mi.C

Oh dear, seems that last of the festive bevvies are being consumed today :lol

Live long and suffer :lol

R.R.

Ill have you know cindy my loaves come out like the ones you see in the farmers market , dusted with flour and platted , Just they dont cost £3 a loaf lol

C.S.

not A rated then at that age Mick shame on you for not thinking this through! You could be undoing a lot of the good you try and achieve with these dated white goods. I wonder if you might consider bottling the fruit? Mine is delicious or pickle some of your vegetables rather than freezing? saves energy and taste actually and after all you are taking a rather virtuous stance here

C.S.

So Robb will you talk to Alan J B Wyllie or shall i?

J.S.

Robb i love maing bread....i think of something that miffs me off whilst im kneading : )

R.R.

All yours cindy , The mad thing is sticking a ready meal in the microwave feels like a chore , but creating something yourself is a pleasure , especially when you evolve and create the recipe"s yourself .

R.R.

Thats the best bit , the more effort you put into that bit Jayne , the better it is . 1 knead is enough , Its just fighting the temptation to not put it in the oven before its proven enough !

J.S.

Same...plus you know whats in it

C.S.

i messaged the big man so we wait and see

Mi.C

I also do my own pickles Cindy, no white goods harmed in the process apart from the cookers, and glass jars, which are not white.

And home produced pickled eggs (disgusting things that they are ).

Robb, since retiring 85% of the cooking is done by myself, its only right after having being cooked for , for all of those years when I was working.

Infact, I’m thoroughly enjoying the whole process, and still have loads of time to do the things I also enjoy

C.S.

Lol Mick i meant the harm you do by using dated energy sucking white goods of course. You really have been finishing your Christmas booze haven't you!

Did you and your family find the same time and energy when you were both working and had a young family? Or when you were a single man struggling to find a secure 'home'?

Now all this stuff i read from you stating the negativity from the 'left footers' how about you stop being so negative yourself and share some recipes? Possibly even bearing in mind for some of them the time/energy/motivation constraints some of us mortal humans have in our lives?

R.F.

perhaps trying to live on a reduced amount of cash for a month and try to eat healthly would give people an idea of how difficult this is,....... try it? and remember the reduced cash is to pay for everything, see how many can eat healthly if its that easy.

C.S.

i live on limited cash Richard as do probably everyone else here the point is its cheaper !

J.S.

You should share your wisdom mick : )

C.S.

‎*silence speaking volumes here for me

R.R.

Yeah share some recipes Mick , I dont know if my family would approve of me tucking into just jars of pickled eggs , But I would love to know how to pickle and more importantly what can be done to make edible dishes out of pickled foods , apart from the obvious jams of course lol .

Somewhere we still have jar of home made pickle from 1977 from my gran , How long can it last ?

C.S.

bit of advice Robb if you do choose to eat that pickle then do n ot share your bed that night. Imagine the wind power you might generate?

Mi.C

If it was a cookery site I’d happily share, but sorry, it aint rocket science, and as for any ladies who may be struggling with this simple concept, what more can be said really ??

R.R.

Your right Cindy or I just might get Chris Huhne slapping a carbon tax on me !

J.S.

Dont be a stoneage grump mick....i know how to do most but its good to learn more. Start ya own page

J.S.

The 70's rang mick...they said there missing your winning ways : )

S.S.

I hate to state the obvious but we all have access to thousands of recipes via google.

C.S.

o Mick you are such a grouch sometimes for goodness sake relax and stop taking yourself so seriously for a short time! Don't share then but don't slate those of us that want to share either poisoning everything positive is not big or clever just plan childish!

Robb i will PM you some pickle recipes tomorrow when i can get to a scanner BUT i want that bread recipe in return fair deal?

C.S.

we do Shelia just trying to share good ideas that have worked for us personally .......hang on Mick never said anyone LIKED his produce wonder if thats why he is being coy?

J.S.

I get a lot from google but you cant beat peoples experiences ..there better

Ben Zebedee Perfit It is a myth to think you can't eat healthy on a tight budget!

C.S.

totally Mr P totally its cheap to eat healthy food than junk keeps you full for longer cheaper to buy and by golly tastier

D.B.

With 5 kids plus myself and my husband to feed, a fiver doesn't go far. I've just made a blognese and a chilli and the extra lean mince alone cost £12, admitedly it will feed us tomorrow as well). As for fridges etc, we have one "normal" sized fridge freezer but bought a small extra one when ours broke to fill the gap (as we could take it away on the spot) and thought it would be great to have an extra one in the garage, sadly no-one pointed out that it wouldn't work unless the tempertaure outside was between certain boundaries! lol.

J.S.

Thats cos you have about 30 kids debs lol

Mi.C

Debs, halve the costs, cook the fat out of the cheaper mince before use.

Simples

D.B.

Mick - I used to do that but I'm on Slimming World (don't get me started!!) and I have to have the extra lean one!! Baked potatoes is always a good option (especially as my kids won't eat them, so I don't have to cook them anything!! lol)

J.S.

Know what ya mean debs....so ive stopped eating mince. It'll be worth it by the summer when were slinky : )

Mi.C

theres always quorm, if you dont mind eating a shoe box

J.S.

Quorns awful...*shudder*

Mi.C

How much is a loaf of bread ? (I’m being serious)

R.F.

£1.50 now.

When I was a student 10 years ago a value loaf was 17p

J.S.

Cheap white about 40p...decent up to £2

J.S.

Bread machines are cheap now days and the mix

Mi.C

Right, 6 months ago I purchased a breadmaker from Lidl for £40.

To make a loaf, a sachet of yeast =20p, baking flour = 15p, 1 egg= free and a pinch of salt.

Chuck it all in the machine at once, switch it on (AA rated) and ignore until it bleeps when its finished after 2 hours.

Home made loaf =60p ?? inc electric and better than anything that comes wrapped in a plastic bag.

Watch this space for tomorrows economical cookery tip

J.S.

You make me chuckle mick : )

J.S.

You should try the focaccia one..its lush

C.S.

thanks Mick x

J.S.

Should have gone to argos mick...cheaper there

Mi.C

I chuck in a handful of fresh finely chopped herbs and grated cheese just before it starts cooking.

You cant buy one of them in a supermarket !! and it makes great bacon & egg sandwiches

J.S.

herb and sod bread sre one of my weak spots...i wanna try some funky homemade ice cream flavours this year

J.S.

Soda not sod

C.S.

Mick have you ever tried to make tomato ketchup ?

M-H.G.

Mick, my daughter works hard for a living (something you would encourage), she is also a single mother so on her days off, she wants to spend quality time ( something you also bang on about), not spend it bulk cooking. Stop pretending that life is black and white...

M-H.G.‎

* Spend quality time with her son.

C.S.

But Marie she is luckier than some as she has a fab mum!

M-H.G.

I don't know about fab but I try my best! It just makes me mad those assumptions that people are lazy because they don't cook from scratch.

M-H.G.

My daughter has very little interest in cooking although she likes eating, I have no interest in pop music, does that make me an old fuddy duddy?

H.A.

says it all really....http://news.sky.com/home/uk-news/article/16140670

Obesity: Supermeals Campaign Aims To Tackle Obesity As Survey Suggests Britons Are In Denial | UK Ne

news.sky.com

Britain is a nation in denial about obesity, according to a new survey.

Mi.C ‎

"Mick have you ever tried to make tomato ketchup ?”

No, its something we dont use apart from using to mix with mince etc.

As we normally grow a glut of toms we do make a lot of tom soups and a tom sauces with is used as a base for other meals, particulary Italians.

H.A.

What a wonderful thread :) I have done my own veggie patch and I'm doing so again this summer. People all around me are growing their own - even if its something small.

Look at allotments..the waiting time for these is longer than it has been for a long time., People are growing veggy from their own backyards. The supermarkets have strangled local competition and are one of the few cash rich sources in our country. This gives them enormous power - to the point where they can quite literally financially control how a council spends our money. They engage in a marketing policy designed to make us spend every penny we have and rely on us being vague and not having disciplined shopping lists or weekly menued food.

They are now going into life insurance, buildings insurance, car insurance, mortgages, pensions, bank accounts. We let them.

..and guess what? The food they give us is irradiated, preserved, coloured, watered down, diluted and most of the time IT ISNT FRESH AND ITS EXPENSIVE! Why is it expensive? Because of their corporate profit margins. Why do we buy from them? Because 'its convenient'. Sorry guys but that is the reality. You want decent food? Grow your own! In whatever way you can. If you have a garden, dig a veggie patch. If you are in a high rise flat, grow herbs, strawberries or tomatoes.

We are going to potentially lose 40% of our retail outlets this year. That doesn't need to happen next year as well if we make the effort to support local businesses, local shops, local trade.

Mi.C

The only really expensive veg etc is this rip off organic stuff.

H.A.

Those of you who are my FB friends, have a look at my wall :) lol

J.S.

I have to agree mick...but dont get diane gyves started lol

R.R.

Mick you dont need all that kerfuffle to make a loaf of bread , And for Cindy .

Make a pot of tea ,

With a little kettle water put a 1-2 Tspoon of yeast and 2 Tspoon sugar in little kettle Kettle water with some cold to make it luke warm.

When tea drunk stick 450g plain flour and a 4 Tspoon salt in bowl , add the yeast solution and some extra water if needed to bind together into doe

Kneed for 10-15 mins , Leave half hour then Divide into two , put on tray spinked with flour

Gas mark 4 Aprox 15 mins . job done !

Add a little cooking oil to doe if u want softer not crusty bread .

Swearing at police 'is no longer an offence' - 26 June 2011

2012-01-01T10:26:00.000-08:00

Politics UK shared a link.

Swearing at police 'is no longer an offence'

www.dailymail.co.uk

Officers have been banned from arresting yobs who insult them with the most offensive swear-words in the language.

A.P.

Good news everybody!

N.S.

Though it can be argued they are just 'words', for some they are still seen as offensive, and also the context in which they are used. Watching Crimewatch Roadshow last week, as someone was being restrained he was swearing in a defensive way. But how many people will use this in either an aggresive way or just to wind up a police officer?

A.P.

I don't think people have ever needed the 'swears' to try and wind up the fash'.

N.S.

the fash? you mean facist? why do you think they are all facist?

A.P.

It was my attempt at an example, but strangely enough I do think most of them are fascistic.

M.R.

Noel......I would agree that most police officers are normal guys, doing a job, but, there are exceptions........and they too have ways to wind up the public........swearing shouldn't be necessary, but neither should certain police tactics...........

N.S.

Mark, that is the point, you can train as much as you like, but the person in the uniform is a normal man or woman, with emotions, with a life away form work. but 30% of the time we hear about an officer is when he/she does something wrong. some because they get caught at the wrong time on the wrong day, some because they are abusing the power given to them by society. trouble is making sure that the bad egss are thrown out and that the others are not thrown out when they maybe need retraining, or closer supervision for a time, however with cut backs will front line officers lose management supervision/support and as a result will a bad day turn into a bad egg?

M.C.

If a police officer can't handle a bit of swearing, they're in the wrong job.

M.H.

This story made me laugh yesterday. I wasn't aware that it was ever an offence in the first place. So far as I know 'being mean to a police officer' has never been a crime.

If you can't stand the heat...

A.P.

I mean as far as I knew the CID were notorious for calling people 'SLAAAAGS!'

A.J.B.W.

True story is this,

I found a pup in the local park a few years ago. I spend time and money trying to finds the pups owner.

After a week, I took the pup down the local cop shop. Explaining that I had found the pup and had been looking for its owner.

The C^nt of a policeman charged me with theft of the pup!!!!<as I hadn't "returned" the pups soon as I found it>.

I said "You are having a feckin laugh"..and I was charged with breach of the breach!!!

If you know me, then you would understand that all hell broke up then.

The "theft" charge was dropped by the policemans superior..but I got a £25 fine for swearing.

It is no wonder that people don't help the police nowadays.

M.R.

Alan.....you are a very naughty boy!

M.K.

Unfortunately a lot of police are stupid, just like any other profession. The problem here is that they are stupid people with power, the worst kind of idiot. I don't mean this as an attack on the police, some of them are intelligent and articulate and use their brains when applying the law... Some of them don't even know which law they are applying.

M.Co.

@ Mark "If a police officer can't handle a bit of swearing, they're in the wrong job.”

Would that be similar to some of here who get upset at it, are you saying they should leave??

M.Co.

If its legal to swear at the police its only right its OK everywhere else, you know, closing the gaps and all that

N.H.

You shouldn't have stolen the puppy Alan, that was completely out of order.

N.H.

Anyway, you should have cooked it on the first day..

27 June 2011 at 11:17 · Like

A.J.B.W.

The Desk Sgt said to after the event "Don't worry about him(the pc that chrged me), he's a bit of a c0ck but what do you expect..he's ex-army"

It just wasn't my day..

N.H.

lol

M.C.‎

"@ Mark "If a police officer can't handle a bit of swearing, they're in the wrong job.”

Would that be similar to some of here who get upset at it, are you saying they should leave??"

Nik, that's irrelivent. As far as I can tell, we have swearing filters for that purpose. Also, generally we don't have to worry about too much brutality from authorities here so should be unlikely to feel the need to swear much anyway.

R.F.

Excellent news. Arresting people for using 'naughty words' is pathetic, it was just another tool the police used to get people who they wanted to inconvenience but hadn't done anything wrong.

Should organ donation be an opt out scheme?

2012-01-01T05:58:00.000-08:00

Politics UK

Department of Health says compulsory question about donation is aimed at giving people more opportunities to sign up report the Guardian.

Driving licence applicants asked to join organ donor register

Should organ donation be an opt out scheme whereby the assumption that organs can be use be used for transplant unless the person specifically say no?

www.guardian.co.uk

Department of Health says compulsory question about donation is aimed at giving people more opportunities to sign up

F.A.

Absolutely, but only opt outs available for issues of conscience.

E.L.

I think the question you should ask yourself is Would I accept a organ if I needed it .It isn't law even now if you sign to donate, a member of your family can still refuse.,so what happens if the licence says to donate can the family still refuse

J.B.

If organ donation was compulsory apart from, as Fraser said, religious reasons then many more lives would be saved. I don't need any of my organs when I die so why not let them be used.

F.A.

Each person should have a right to refuse treatment however when you're dead i see no reason, other than for religious or conscience reasons, why a body should not automatically be put to good use.

And on a related point blood donation should be compulsory too with the same exceptions of course. and let gay and bi sexual people donate too.

A.J.B.W.

Fraser did I read that right. Are you saying that Gay and bisexual people can't donate?

F.A.

Nope, too much of a threat apparently. evil evil aids. it's disgraceful.

F.A.

although scotland plans to change it to allow it. . . . oh provided the man in question has been sexually inactive for 10 years! it's one of the few remaining examples of discrimination

A.J.B.W.

Honest to God, that is totally outrageous!! Its not bloody 1980s! I believe that Aid is now more prevalent in heterosexuals than gay or bi?

I am genuinely shocked by that.

Actually I am rather angry about it. Imagine how they'd feel if they were refused to be able to donate because of their sexuality, How humiliated would they feel...

A.J.B.W.‎

"oh provided the man in question has been sexually inactive for 10 years! it's one of the few remaining examples of discrimination"

That actually makes it worse..

F.A.

I think in terms of numbers yes it's more common in the heterosexual community but (whilst i hate to be crude) anal sex is the method most likely to lead to transmission of the virus and as a % i think it's more prevalent in the gay & bi community.

however the period of time required for antibodies to develop in the blood to allow detection of HIV is 12 weeks so i don't see why 4 months abstinence and then a screening couldn't be implemented. it's not perfect but it's better than it is just now.

F.A.

ideally only HIV+ individuals shouldn't be able to donate but everyone else should and then all the blood could be screened afterwards . . . . oh no wait i forgot all blood is already screened after donation.

F.A.

As you can probably tell this gets me pretty angry too lol.

E.L.

My husband had a double lung transplant and I'm sure if he was here now he would tell you he would have gladly accepted them from a gay person .

A.W.

I always thought syringes was the most common method of contracting diseases. I could be wrong.

F.A.

That's another bit where it gets bizare. gay men can't donate blood but the nhs will happily take the organs.

F.A.

I think there is a restriction on intravenous drug users too.

R.B.

I thought you did all-ready

A.P.

Why not just another thing the government will own,they will probably bring in an opt out tax..

S.S.

Should definitely be an opt in scheme.

W.M.

should be ot out scheme

E.L.

Opt in or out if you die a family member can change the decission,well at the moment they can . The transplant team say more important is you discuss it with your next of kin

Al.W.

I see nothing wrong with this idea at all. As is being said, an opt out scheme would be better imo

Al.W.

Eleanor - I never realised that until someone told me a few weeks ago. I think it's disgraceful. If you've signed up for a donor card, then no-one should be able to over ride that unless there are very exceptional circumstances (such as suspected foul play)

E.L.

I once had a stall outside a big store with forms to appeal for donors a guy wanted one and he ended up with him and his wife arguing that if he went first she would dispute it ,how can people go against someones wishes I'll never know but sadly true

R.F.

Alan v Fraser was a big old misunderstanding, in case anyone still hasn't figured that out. As for opt in/opt out - I don't think any person's intention should ever be assumed. Donation is an act of intentional charity, and I really think it should stay that way, or else our own individual will becomes devalued.

W.M.

it gets worse my brother died at 16 because he was considered a minor they would have to have parental consent even though he carried a donor card.
At the time of his death my mother was away and he was in my care and they wouldnt accept me giving permission, in spite of him carrying the card and me being his immediate family, it really is a nonsense system.
An opt out scheme where the onus is on families to opt out for whatever objections they have other wise a presumption of consent is in place would be the best system.

G.T.

Compulsory would work for me. If it saves lives then what could you possibly have against it?

F.A.

Misunderstanding robert? i thought alan and i were in total agreement throughout. or are you saying my understanding of donation restrictions is inaccurate?

F.A.

re individual will, i don't see what will you or i could have after we're dead. that's why i'd support compulsory donation of organs upon death and compulsory blood donations throughout our lives. with the caveat that genuine matters of conscience would allow exemptions.

Does the UK adequately look after its injured Armed Forces personnel?

2012-01-01T04:32:00.000-08:00

I.J.

I rarely get angry but having just listened to the plight of injured serviceman Ben Parkinson on Radio 5 I am untterly appalled at the way Labour and Tory Governments treat injured serviceman. Ben was blown up in Afghanistan in 2006 and has suffered the worst injuries of any surviving member of our armed forces. The Army have just stated that he is no longer fit for service and have pensioned him off, the result of which is his £100k per annum rehabilitation care bill will no longer be paid by the State and will instead fall upon his family ......

C.F.

i seen that a cpl of days ago trully shocking

So Fi

Unbelievable

F.G.

why do we have an NHS? for all the billions is costs it cant even look after our troops - nope cos its not fit for purpose like all the rest of the government agencies

S.O.

What's it got to do with the NHS Frank? This is an indictment of War and the crass justifications for it made by our glory-seeking politicos. We always find the money to fight to 'save' other nations, but don't seem too fussed about picking up the tab for the consequences.

A.K.

We are bombing the life out of Libya and many civilians are hurt so badly that they have to be brought to this country for treatment...These are mainly children...I am not against this but charity begins at home...This soldier has recieved these horrendous injuries serving this country....It is disgusting that this gov can turn their back on him now....

I.J.

For me it really does ask a question ......... we give billions away in foreign aid and to the EU but don't look after service men and women who get injured performing their duty. Its not about whether you support this war or that conflict these guys do a great job on behalf of their country and should be treated accordingly when the need arrises ....

So Fi

It is not about the EU and foreign aid either.

I.J.

But SoFi the foreign aid budget is £7B and rising. I would like to see some of this redirected to putting back together the lives of injured servicemen and their families ......

S.O.

Of course it's about War Ian - how else do you pick up these kinds of injuries? You can't separate the two, not at all. This country hasn't needed defending in over 60 years.

You're correct about foreign aid etc (to a degree) of course. Then there's our export guarantee schemes, bailing out of the banks etc.

So Fi

Well I still disagree, you could say it is all about PRIORITY and I would agree on that thought we may have different views on where the priorities are.

Back to the specifics, of course I would expect a country to have a moral obligation towards its soldiers and to pick the tab for any of the consequences of war, or not to go to war, it is all about consistency.

R.R.

I remember when I was a boy lived near the woolwich military hospital which dealt with falklands war casualties . I dont expect the NHS to cover specialist care for ben parkinson , as His needs and type of injuries are not something that warrants a NHS budget and are not typical of the civillian populations . However the responsibility rests at the door with the MOD , after all they are responsible for his injuries as all injured in conflict on behalf of the government . Specialist medical units should not be cut . Look elsware to reduce the budget .

S.S

But the point is, and I am not saying I agree with this, once he has been discharged he is no longer military personnel and therefore is entitled to NHS treatment.

I.J.

Scott of course war causes the casualties I was merely pointing out that an individuals views on a particular conflict or war shouldn'thave any bearing on the fact that we need to do more for injured service personnel

I.J.

SoFi I'd concede its a priority issue ..... I think we should donate money for overseas aid but should do much more for the likes of injured service personnel.

I.J.

Thats the point Sheila this country seems to be happy to simply abandon those terribly injured to the 'system' it place emphasis on giving aid oversees which is an appalling indictment of our country ....

H.A.

God bless The Sun newspaper...

So Fi

the state should have a duty of care for wounded soldiers, I thought it had, I am utterly surprised it has not.

S.S

I understand what you are saying Ian and I am not saying I agree with what is happening, but how many employers do you know who would look after an employee who has not been fit for work for 5 years.

J.R.

At the risk of being called 'unpatriotic' the UK does have a 'professional army' and troops are not conscripts. Whilst I accept for some young men and women joining the armed services may be the only choice of regular employment, they all join knowing the risks they face. The Afghan war has been going on for 10 years now and we should have never been involved. It is a tradegy that our young people return from was in pieces but they volunteered to serve and sadly going to war is a consequence.

I.J.

Guys I think there is an enormous difference between going to work in a factory for Joe Bloggs & Son, getting injured and going to serve in the armed forces and getting injured on active service .....

R.R.

Jeremy First of all before I rant , Good luck to Ben , I hear that interview this morning and am humbled buy his courage ! When your 14-16 in army cadets and living In a place of poverty and low unemployment the army sounds a great exhiting place to be . But maybe I have the luxuary of age that I am cynical . I was brought up to believe to fight for my country and is a noble cause . I still believe so . Who right minded n able would"nt take up arms to defend the people you love so dear n yr friends your town ect . But this is 2011 and the world and the UK has moved on , and these human emotions are being used for no more than personal gain bye a few . Going to war in 2011 has a different meaning to going to war in years gone . These soldiers volunteered to defend our country , family and homes not BP and other corporations interest .

S.S

Don't agree with you Ian, industrial accidents happen all the time, we just don't hear about them so much.

H.A.

Okay so look at this then. You do a job that has a risk risk of injury and this is common knowledge. Doesn't the company you are working for build this into their liability insurance? Perhaps the MOD should stop spending bloody £65 per lightbulb and put the difference into a specialised injury compensation policy.

A.J.B.W.

‎" At the risk of being called 'unpatriotic' the UK does have a 'professional army' and troops are not conscripts. Whilst I accept for some young men and women joining the armed services may be the only choice of regular employment, they all join knowing the risks they face."

I totally agree Jeremy. And we should be proud that we do have a professional Army.

The treatment of this soldier is disgusting but not unprecedented.

So Fi

I guess they get huge compensation anyway??

J.R.

Robb. Let me put it this way. If Britain was under threat of invasion and there was a call to defend our homes, towns, and cities, from an invading force, then I would gladly volunteer but, however, to fight on some distant battlefield to fight an enemy who has done me no harm and is not a threat to mine or my family, then no I would not volunteer. Whatever the 'noble cause' our young women and men think they are fighting for, they do it for purely selfish reasons.

However, I do believe that the govt has a 'duty of care' toward those they send into battle, just as they have a 'duty of care' to those who work in many other occupations and pay into the NHS. To claim priority should depend on the basis of need and not 'right', and just because a soldier is injured in battle their 'rights' are no greater than anyone else's.

On a personal note, if the children of politicians all did a stint in the army, perhaps their parents would be less willing to go to war...

I.J.

Jeremy I couln't disagree more ..... why anyone in our armed forces would want to join and do their duty for the Government and many of the people in the UK is frankly beyond me ..... I've said before if I can give my kids one piece of advise for when they gro up it would be emigrate

R.F.

Whatever. There are plenty of people suffering, not just soldiers. I never told anyone to go and get killed or injured for my sake, nor would I.

J.R.

That's the point Ian, they don't do 'their' duty, they do the govt's. Send the damned politicians to war and leave our kids at home, and the whole world would be a safer place!

Is a UK National Citizen Service scheme for 16 year olds is a good idea? 15th August 2011

2011-12-31T10:32:00.000-08:00

UK Voluntary National Citizen Service Scheme for 16 year olds? YES OR NO?

Group created to discuss whether bringing in a structured voluntary UK National Citizen Service scheme for 16 year olds is a good idea or not?

A.J.B.W.

J.A.M.

S.F.

Why not? I would think it is a great idea!

A.J.B.W.

Its voluntary, therefore those who actually need it will probably not volunteer for it.

What about education, aren't some kids at school when their 16.

If it was done a a part of a punishment, I would agree.

R.F.

I've no objections, save that there should be such schemes in place for people of all ages rather than just the young.

S.F.

True R.F

B.B.

If optional yes, if not, no

R.B.

How about offering incentives for people doing Voluntary work Rather than the current System which seems to penalise people on benefits who want to volunteer, also there should be more things like princes’ trust and Fairbridge for older people

A.J.B.W.

But there are schemes like this running. Over 150000 people volunteer with CSV (Community Service Volunteers) every year.

I just don't see the point if it’s optional.

S.F.

I always thought a compulsory civil service would be excellent. Could be done after the youngs have finished studying whatever their age is then.

A.J.B.W.

A thing like this is what youth who have been in trouble need. Rather than exclude them in society, show them that society can give them the stability to reach their potential.

There was a rehabilitation unit in the Highlands. It was run by ex Paras. Although expensive to run, the re-offending rates were minimal. It was closed because it was too expensive.

If we want the next generation to be valuable assets to the country, we need to invest in them. Nurture their talents. Allow them to make mistake.

S.F.

That could give an invaluable life/work experience to lots of young people and help some of them to develop their skills as well as their community sense and feel a sense of belonging.

A.J.B.W.

I was a little sh*t when I was younger. A right little sh*t. But, looking back, it was because I had no focus in my life, nothing to aim for.

I think young people need focus or direction in their life, be it academic and/or socially.

S.F.

Were you Alan? Because you seem very tolerant now!

R.B.

Many Young People Who enter the penal system end up trapped in a vicious circle, they should focus more on guiding them in the Right direction and helping them build a better life for themselves once they leave

A.J.B.W.

I spend 12 years as a medic in the Army. It opened my eyes to what really matters.

A.J.B.W.

So true Robert. I have close friends who have spend most of their life in the jail. They just can't get out of the circle that they are in. All of them became heroin addict in jail...

S.F.

So you also think that the system is too soft? Gordon was saying the same thing the other day and he did time apparently.

A.J.B.W.

Soft is maybe not the correct word. But it’s easy manipulated.

Going to Jail is not soft though. It is hell.

A.J.B.W.

I should explain that I spend 28 lovely days in Her Majesty’s Pleasure for refusing to pay a fine I had for not paying my TV licence...

R.B.

Also I feel if there were More Options like Raleigh and V.S.O Made available these can often do a-lot of good I've seen young people a lot of them with the same backgrounds as those in the riots they have bleak outlooks on their lives for all sorts of reasons 2where they come from etc

S.F.

Alan I cannot believe you went to prison for such a minor issue???!!

A.J.B.W.

I was younger and in a bad place. I had just left the Army...and I ended up homeless..ended up getting a council flat but for a couple of months I had no TV.

But eventually I decide to get one, but the TV Licence people didn't believe I had gone a couple of months without a TV and wanted me to pay for those months. I refused then eventually summoned to Paisley District Court

I got charged, pleading innocent and £375. I told the Magistrate that I wasn't going to pay the fine so he put me in Greenock nick for 28 days.

D.C.

So Fi, that's what happens in the UK...

S.F.

I cannot believe it, I read every day in the papers that people who are culpable of assault go probation?? There is a real problem with consistency within the judicial system.

R.B.

R.E cont from my above post I,e "I'm a 20 yr old black guy from Brixton with no qualifications who's gonna give me a job? What Chance do I Have In life?" They go to somewhere like India or Borneo for 10 weeks Working on various Environmental, Community and Adventure projects and come back with a completely different outlook and Something on their C.V which looks good to Employers - I know Innocent are one of these companies that look for these things on c.vs

A.J.B.W.

...probably not the best decision I have ever made. But being in jail was one hell of an experience.

The first thing the Prison Guard said to me was "Your are the first person to come to this jail in 5 week who does not have an alcohol or drugs problem.

S.F.

I understand your reaction on the licence fee thread a few weeks back now! I always thought that the threatening letters we receive when we're late to pay our bill were OTT but I did not really believe anything could really happen in case I would not pay...

D.C.

Alan your experience sounds horrible. Did you get any help from the Army about Civvie Street?

R.B.

Richard Reed On Raleigh <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yHP0skOAVIo&feature=player_embedded#at=43>

<http://www.raleighinternational.org/about-raleigh/awards-and-recognition..>

D.L.

The support is SO limited for ex service people and man it sucks.........

D.L.

They are good Alan but like you said charities NOTHING from the government.

A.J.B.W.

No Dylan. I found that Government agencies did not care. Charities such as British Legion and SSAFA are the only agencies which helped me.

But in the defence of the Government, I left the Army in an unorthodox fashion.

I’ve deleted my previous comment. To those who read it, I hope you understand why I deleted it.

A.J.B.W.

Ty S.F.:-)

M.H.G.

So Fi, Being sent to prison for refusing or not being able to pay a fine or Council Tax is quite a normal occurrence.

D.C.

I do understand Alan. The forces charities like SSAFA, BL, AWS ect are fantastic but clearly there still needs to be more done to help those leaving the forces but also to the ones already on Civvie Street. Luckily my family is pretty big so there will be a lot of support (I hope) when my dad leaves the Army and we as a family can support him, but I know many singles struggle to make the change from an army life to a normal one.

Mrs Thatcher and THAT website - 1 Dec 2011

2011-12-31T07:44:00.000-08:00

Aarran Craig McPherson

This ought to keep you informed, haha. http://www.isthatcherdeadyet.co.uk/

Is Margaret Thatcher Dead Yet?

www.isthatcherdeadyet.co.uk

Keeping track of when, exactly, The Right Honourable Baroness Margaret Hilda Thatcher will finally cop it.

Richard Frazer

Very disrespectful.

Sharon Douglas

Then you would really not like the "I'll Dance on Thatcher's Grave even if she is buried at sea" page, Richard.

Richard Frazer

Have I. . . well I will unlike that. I like far to many pages trying to gather stuff for this page.

Richard Frazer

nope not in my likes

Just remember Thatcher is a ex leader of this country, a mother and a grand mother. Would you want someone wishing your mother was dead?

Aarran Craig McPherson

Try telling that to the people whose family member's she killed in the Falkland War.

Richard Frazer

Aarran - Not sure when you turned bitterly against the lady your adored previously. However you should not go round wishing people are dead.

Richard Frazer

So do you wish Cameron Dead? Do you wish Tony Blair dead. Both are responsible for dubious wars in our lifetime?

Frank Webster

Aarran, all wars kill people- I think at least a dozen of mine were killed in the Great War, and my grandmother's first hubby in the Second World War. The men who died were fighting to preserve the Falklanders' right to be British, as opposed to their subjugation by the tyrannical fascist regime in Buenos Aires that we successfully saw off.

Sharon Douglas

This is all I will say.....it is unlikely anyone would worry too much about a family's sensibilities regarding a dying relative, if that relative had ordered the murder of one of yours. Actually, I have not wished her dead. I was only pointing out another similar site. I also said, you would NOT like it. Personally....I hope she continues to live a long, long time.

Aarran Craig McPherson

I was not just talking about the British soldiers gentlemen, we are forgetting the elephant in the room that is the Belgrano. I always did prefer Heseltine anyway, hahaha.

Richard Frazer

Aarran - I think you should take time and speak to people on the British Army pages and see what they think of the Falklands war.

What they think of Thatcher and whether they wish her dead

Aarran Craig McPherson

Anyway, I do not wish for her to die, I just want her to atone for her sins.

Frank Webster

The Belgrano was still a threat- even if it was moving off. Naval artillery can be turned any direction, so whether it was going one way or the other is immaterial. Not only that, but Michael Foot- then the Labour leader, and a steadfast opponent of authoritarian and fascist regimes- backed Maggie to the hilt during the Falklands War.

Aarran Craig McPherson

Indeed he did, but I do not care much for Mr Foot either, Socialism and Libertarianism are both equally as abhorrent as each other.

Richard Frazer

Aarran would you have prefered the Belgrano to have destroyed our ships.

Do you know the Argentinians have since said Belgrano was a legitimate target, that they would have done the same.

Richard Frazer

So how do you want a Prime Minister of this country to 'atone for her sins?' - When she was protecting British land from an invading agressor?

Frank Webster

Aarran, despite his faults Michael Foot was a wonderful man- one of Parliament's last great orators. One might not have agreed with some of his views, but he dominated the Commons with his personality and his oratory- and this comes from a liberal Tory.

Aarran Craig McPherson

That may be the case Richard but I know a Veteran of the War and he said that Thatcher killed many men from careless decisions and that The Belgrano posed little threat. The best part is that he is also a Tory (although a more left wing, liberal one than Maggie).

Frank Webster

Richard- you hit the nail on the head. I suppose if we repeated our tactics at Messines in 1917, we would be accused of being beastly.... one cannot make a fry-up without breaking eggs.

Barry Black

this is not about wishing someone dead, it's just a bit of satire as she is arguably the most hated PM ever, probably the PM most negatively portrayed by satire too.

Aarran Craig McPherson

I agree Frank Mr Foot was a fantastic orator with a great personality but I do not care for his views that much.

Aarran Craig McPherson

Hear, hear Barry!

Mark Caudery

Good to know lefty Tories still exist, Aarran.

Richard Frazer

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1034634/Lady-Thatcher-honoured-State-funeral.html

Lady Thatcher to be honoured with State funeral

Aarran Craig McPherson

I am not a Lefty Tory Mark, haha, I have left the party I do not actively support anyone at the moment, I shall weight up my options with every party and see who I support then. I am looking for a Third Way party to be honest.

Richard Frazer http://conservativehome.blogs.com/thetorydiary/2011/11/thatcher-tops-league-table-of-best-prime-ministers.html

YouGov poll

Thatcher tops league table of best Prime Ministers

conservativehome.blogs.com

Richard Frazer

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/margaret-thatcher/8614385/Margaret-Thatcher-most-capable-Prime-Minister-poll-finds.html

Margaret Thatcher 'most capable' Prime Minister, poll finds - Telegraph

www.telegraph.co.uk

Richard Frazer

Papers and history seems to disagree.

Aarran Craig McPherson

Notice these are alll from right-wing sources Richard?

Richard Frazer

Not true Aarran - YouGov is the source of the poll.

Richard Frazer

Of course Right wing people will promote it though

Frank Webster

Speak to my brother-in-law, Aarran- he isn't a Tory, but he loved Maggie- she let him keep more of his own money and buy his council house. Before 1979, it was more difficult for working people on ordinary wages to buy property- Maggie made home ownership a reality for many.

Aarran Craig McPherson

On the other hand Frank, we now have a shortage of social housing due to Maggie though.

Aarran Craig McPherson

I mean yes, it is great that people can now own their own homes but had she built one social house for every one bought by someone that bought onje from the state we would not have a housing shortage like we do now.

Richard Frazer

Due to subsiquent leaderships not building enough. You do know how long she has not been in power.

Frank Webster

That's because the private rental sector is being strangled- our tax system is perverse... try to make your assets work for you and you get taxed.

Richard Frazer

It is easy to blame the leaders that try to change things. Thatcher is easily one of the best leaders the UK have ever had because she did exactly what her voters asked for and was one of the longest serving because of it.

She would not of been voted in repeatedly if she was failing the country.

Frank Webster

Richard- again you hit the nail on the head. We don't build enough houses, and there are not enough incentives for private house-builders to go out and build houses. I read a piece by Enoch Powell, from the 1950s, and he demonstrated a brilliant understanding of the housing market- we do not need state housing, what we need is a healthy private rental sector and the opportunity for people to be able to buy their own house. No Tory should ever oppose home ownership- home ownership is one of the bulwarks of democracy.

Aarran Craig McPherson

Richard of course Blair and Brown have mad many mistakes but that does not take away from the huge ones Maggie made during her tenure.

Richard Frazer

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/8253169.stm

Bringing Nissan to Sunderland. Was this Thatchers greatest success?

Certainly has been a massive employment and investment win for the UK!

BBC NEWS | UK | UK Politics | Was this Thatcher's greatest legacy?

news.bbc.co.uk

Was getting Nissan to invest in Sunderland Margaret Thatcher's biggest success as prime minister?

Aarran Craig McPherson

It is arguably her only good legacy.

Cecilia Fisher

yes the south of england loved the auld witch but she lost every tory seat in scotland and destroyed them forever in scotland

Frank Webster

Maggie didn't try to introduce ID cards, didn't let rip with the public finances, didn't try to detain suspects for more than 72 hours (42 days from Brown!), didn't try to interfere in virtually every aspect of our lives.

Frank Webster

Cecilia, so did my area- the Heavy Woollen district of West Yorkshire... we're hardly stockbrokers and bankers, more small businessmen and working people, but we're also one of the last bastions of Old School Liberalism, which Maggie successfully represented.

Cecilia Fisher

no she just destroyed scotland and large parts of england

Aarran Craig McPherson

Maggie did not introduce ID cards - arguably a mistake. Maggie did deregulate the banks and businesses which have caused the mess we are currently in, Maggie did destroy the industry that previous Tory, Liberal and Labour PMs spent decades creating, Maggie created the individualist culture, Maggie ripped communities apart, Maggie abolished care in the community. Heseltine would have been better.

Richard Frazer

Sorry but I would not wish a persons death on any leader on any country ever. You cannot argue that Maggie deserves death and then say you have compassion for others. Do you not see the hypocracy?

Aarran Craig McPherson

I do not want Maggie to die and I am not wishing for her death, I just wish she would at least apologise publically for some of the mistakes she made.

Richard Frazer

Just like every other leader.

She will not apologise for having a different ideology to you.

How narrow minded. You may have a different opinion to her now, but you previously agreed wholeheartedly with her. Were you just as bad then?

What happens if you decide she is right again?

Mick Constable

‎^^^ Let Blair and Brown go first, by the time they’ve finished she will have passed on

Mark Caudery

Let's not get personal now Richard, we all have a right to change our minds.

Richard Frazer

I agree. But I really dislike threads which open with the death of a person.

Richard Frazer

Conjecture either puts her as disliked or liked.

It depends on ideology. She stuck to her guns throughout. Holding position that long as PM is always going to create good and bad press (see Blair). Why should she apologise for doing what her party was voted in to do.

Hex Austen

Offensive. I can't believe this thread is even on here to be honest.

Mick Constable

Its like someone posting about your own mum dying.

Its balantantly immature, irresponsible and inappropriate

Mark Caudery

It's not against the rules is it?

Richard Frazer

Which part?

Frank Webster

How is not introducing ID cards a mistake, Aarran? Surely having all of one's details on one single card is a recipe for large-scale fraud, and having to carry proof of one's identity is surely a way to sour relations between the people and the police?

Mark Caudery

erm... the post?

Hex Austen

Its offensive and its infantile. I'm sad that PUK have dropped to this level if this remains on here.

Mick Constable

No, but combining this with the other post, if kids want a voice and to be heard, they first need to grow up.

As for the adults, they are simply pathetic venemous vindictive & pathetic people

Thats not against the rules either

Richard Frazer

Hetty / Mark - No TOU have been broken, but surely Mark you disagree with the feel of the thread

Hex Austen

Up to you but I find it distasteful and the perfect excuse for rabid leftist ranting.

Richard Frazer

What is the benefit of ID cards. We have passports and driving licences.

Do you think terrorists will bring them with them?

Mark Caudery

It does amuse me how you right-wingers are fine with Clarkson's "joke" about shooting striking public sector workers on prime time TV, but are up in arms about a joke on a facebook page about asking if a former UK PM is still alive.

Hex Austen

May not be against TOU but its hardly unbiased is it?

Mark Caudery

Only PUK posts need to be unbiased.

Mick Constable

MArk, Optimal word being JOKE, some of the comments on this and other threads are far from humerous.

Anyone taking Clarkson seriously, thats their own stupid fault, left foot sensitivity.

Richard Frazer

I am fine with this site.

I think it is disrespectful, but allow people to have freedom of speech if they choose to display it in this way.

If Clarkson had opened up a website which suggested we are all waiting for your mother to die. I think we would not be happy with that, but would not stop him doing so.

I think you need to listen to that interview of Clarkson as he did not put it forward as his opinion either and I for one said it was inappropriate, but was being misinterpreted

Richard Frazer

Clarkson joke was crude and disrespectful to. However I said people were making moutains out of milehills. Seems unrelated to wishing the longest serving PM dead though

Cecilia Fisher

or fully in agreement with youths been jailed for a joke on fb .rabid rightwingers at their best

Mick Constable

where abouts on FB, not on here Celilia

Cecilia Fisher

oh yes on here mick think feral was the words to describe them

Richard Frazer

It appears that human decency is not allowed amongst left wingers

Richard Frazer

I cannot believe people are ok with wishing people are dead. . . because they happen to be right of centre

Hex Austen

yuk. just too beneath me to continue with this. bye.

Richard Frazer

Same here

Cecilia Fisher

well it certainly isnt a trait the rabid right [contradiction in terms ]are known for

Mark Caudery

We can't afford to Richard, the right wingers have sold that off. lol

Mick Constable

I see no ferals on here Cecilia, just a few rabid olduns :lol

Cecilia Fisher

no you are missing the point richard its ok for JC to wish thousands of public sector workers executed on live tv ,but someone makes a joke about the sainted margeret and you are all horrified double standards me thinks

Mark Caudery

I guess they think her life is worth more than the millions who went on strike.

Helen Baglee

she is very old and ill. She has lived her life and ruined countless other on the way. Nothing wrong with looking forward to the time of a cathartic event - her passing away. I say this after hearing news of someone passing away and I still stand by it.

Cecilia Fisher

typical rabid wrong

Cecilia Fisher

i think they would prefer if like them we were all hypocrits

Mick Constable

I’ve changed my mind, she does deserve a state funeral if only to piss off a few lefties :lol.

Everyone dies, but to gloat is the sign of something far more sinister and bitter in a person.

Tribal Mentality

Simon Hall

Still cant make up my mind on Thatcher. Seen at first hand the families and areas that she desroyed but also seen the good she did by standing up to the unions.

Frank Webster

Coming from the centre-right, I cannot and would not wish any of my opponents dead- it's just plain wrong. Pure left-wing hypocrisy at its best.

Ian Jerram

So it's ok for the left to moan and cry about Clarksons jibes and then make similar comments regarding Mrs T...... The double standards of the lest are staggering ....

Ian Jerram

Actually Mick Im with you ...... Id love to see a State Funeral with the anarchists et al just to see their faces ....

Frank Webster

Ian, you have to remember that "the left know best", in their own less than humble opinions. The left think they have a monopoly on compassion and all that, but some of us were born just before the Miners' Strike, and know about the compassionate behaviour of the miners- beating up policemen and non-strikers. Pure hypocrisy, simple as.

Mick Constable

Nothing funnier than a leftie throwing a hissy fit :lol

Ian Jerram

Yes there are very occasions where I'd willingly pay to see the rain of truncheons from the police at a demo...... But at Mrs Ts funeral ..... Oh yes

Cecilia Fisher

what the miners did to the police give me a brak ,orgrieve ring any bells soldiers in police uniforms ,

Frank Webster

I have relatives in Orgreave, Cecilia- my grandfather coming from nearby Rotherham. Scargill wanted a fight, and he sure got one. The older miners disowned Scargill, it was all young hooligans who caused trouble- I advise all 'middle-class' Labourites/Socialists to read the memoirs of Roy Mason (one-time miner and former Labour MP): he lays into Scargill no-end.. given that Scargill had waged a personal and nasty campaign against Mason since the 1970s.

Alan J B Wyllie

That website is very well known. Can't say I use it much though..

Mrs Thatcher is viewed by many to be an evil woman. He policies directly affected those people lifes. People in their prime were thrown on the scrapheap, communities had the heart ripped from them. It is perceived that she wanted to break the Unions irrespectively of the harm that that caused.

Should Mrs Thatcher have a state funeral? Only if there is precedence AND only if it can be done respectfully, that is my opinion.

Do I wish Mr Thatcher dead. No, then I would lower myself to her perceived level.

Hate if you must but I ask myself this. What does that achieve?

Cecilia Fisher

well you will remember the soldiers in police uniform ,the horse charges ,setting dogs on the miners and the brutality that was used against thwem

Aarran Craig McPherson

As I have said before, I do not wish her death I just posted this to follow up from the previous post about Maggie. Maggie was wrong, I am surprised it took me a Scotsman so long to realise how she destroyed my country yes Blair and Brown were not that good either but nothing compared to Maggie!

Ian Jerram

Still no excuse to celebrate the death of someone else. I remember saying when Mr Foot died that I may have disagreed with him I still respected him and wished his family my sympathies

Aarran Craig McPherson

Maggie Thatcher - dogmatic, libertarian and eveil. Proof - the handling of The Belgrano issues, the Miner's Strike, using Scotland as a guinea pig for her poll tax and abolishing care in the community to name but a few reasons.

Frank Webster

Blair and Brown were far worse- they let rip with our finances, which made things much worse. Scotland was destroyed by corporatism, not Thatcherism.

Cecilia Fisher

it was destroyed by thatchet ,as were communities and lives in these communities ,

Aarran Craig McPherson

Blair and Brown, gave Scotland a parliament (something Maggie denied us), introduced the minimum wage which brought 1,000,000 people out of poverty 75% of whom were women, enshrined Human Rights into the Scots, English etc legal systems, achieved peace in Northern Ireland, got Gaddafi to rid his nation of Nuclear Weapons, had us integrate further into the Eu and allowed more immigration whihc has benefitted our eeconomy.

Ian Jerram

Personally I liked Margaret Thatcher and Michael Foot because you know where stood. The hate and bile being poured out by the left on here is frankly embarrassing

Aarran Craig McPherson

Ian, I was a Tory party member and am not currently a member of any party, hardly a left winger in my opinion.

Aarran Craig McPherson

Centre-left perhaps, but not a socialist.

Mick Constable

Nothing wrong with hating her, even despising her.

But as has been said, to wish the accelerated death, no matter how inevitable or to want to dance or piss on someones grave, is a sign of humanity that should have no place in the UK.

Those who think such things should simply be treated with the utter contempt they bring upon themselves.

Frank Webster

No Cecilia, communities were destroyed by complacency- Maggie refused to bail out failing industries, and rightly so. If a business cannot survive, it should not be bailed out with public funds- subsidies merely delay the inevitable. And Aarran, don't tell me that unlimited immigration has benefited this country- unlimited immigration has put greater pressure on our public services and the public purse.

Cecilia Fisher

http://youtu.be/3gRgaXib0Sc

ECE-5: The Battle of Orgreave: On Re-enactment and Protest

www.youtube.com

Ian Jerram

Aaron you probably believe the Chronicles of Narnia are factual history if you believe that lot .....

Ian Jerram

Helen Baglee you must tell us when one of your relatives pop their clogs so we can post offensive remarks. Don't like it? Well imagine how Mrs Ts relatives must feel ...

Aarran Craig McPherson

Ok then Ian, I have mentioned to you why I think Maggie was wrong why don't you give us a long list as to everything that she has done whihc is so great?!

Ian Jerram

Aaron she got so many things wrong but as with Michael Foot I give her the respect of being a UK politician who did what she thought was best. I think wishing her dead etc is frankly childish

Mark Caudery

Not sure the hypocrisy is on the side of the left here... The link posted is to a website saying it will announce when she died, which presumably will be of natural causes. JC called for people to shot in front of their families... Slight difference.

Frank Webster

Wider share-ownership, more foreign holidays, more household gadgets, more home-ownership, higher disposable incomes... to name a few. And Cecilia, stop banging on about the miners- I'd lay a pound bet that none of your family went down the pits, unlike mine where we're talking generation-upon-generation.. what killed coal production was a lack of investment, geological problems and the increase in oil consumption... and the decline in coal consumption started in the 1960s, and the decline was relatively uniform until the 1990s.

Aarran Craig McPherson

As I have said before I do not wish her to die, although you have just avoided the question completely, another reason I grew so disenfranchiesd with the right.

Mick Constable

Funny how those who can remember the strike, and were directly affected by it, and those who simply dont have a bloody clue, fail constantly to mention the two men who had as much hand in destroying the mining industry as Thatcher.

Not only that, they refuse to accept they they two men used the miners as their "glove puppets” in trying to further their own selfish agenda’s

Mark Caudery

One might say they had little choice with their backs against the wall. But I'll leave this for people who are more knowledgeable about that era.

Frank Webster

Mick- I am being helpful, go to Skelmanthorpe near Huddersfield, and ask the boys who worked down the pit who destroyed their livelihoods? When the Coal Board tried to close them down, they offered to take their redundancy money and then buy the pit from the Coal Board- and Maggie backed them. What went wrong? The Coal Board told them it wasn't happening. As Roy Mason wrote, it was inevitable that pits were going to close anyway- indeed, what Labour WILL NOT tell you is that the pit closure programme, supposedly started by Maggie, actually started in... er... 1966, under a Labour government, when Maggie was- if I remember right, a mere Opposition Spokeswoman on Pensions.

Aarran Craig McPherson

Ok Frank, we'll move off of the mines then, Maggie raped Scotland of it's industry, mining in the central belt is all but gone thanks to her, mills closed down, shipbuilding decreased, a very local example would be the closure of the Aberdeen Grandholm Mills in 1990 which suffered tremendously at the hands of Maggie's economic policies as did our Broadford Works.

William Macdonald

hahaha typical hypocrisy of the right wingers, complain because people were upset at Jeremy Clarkson "making a joke" about people dying or about committing suicide but mention Maggie and "how dare anyone say such a thing!" lolol make me laugh and sick all at the same time you bunch of hypocrits

Alan J B Wyllie

She smashed the Unions which was strangling the UK.

She gave millions the opportunity to get on the property ladder.

She saved the UK from Neil Kinnock.

The Falklands.

Ian Jerram

I'm centre right economically centre left on social policy. My only desire politically is for English independence from the UK

Aarran Craig McPherson

Alan I agree she did get many on the property ladder but why could she not fuel the construction industry by building more social houses at the same time? That way both the government and construction industry would have benefitted.

Cecilia Fisher

you are wrong so wrong apart from the pits which were profitable ,she also destroyed rosyth dockyard ,transferring work from there to plymouth after they had sunk a basin costing millions to a dockyard without the facilities in order to appease the english voters ,dont try and tell me what thatcher did to my community i lived through it

Frank Webster

Industry was fucked due to poor investment, bad management, cheaper imports and changes in technology- aka. rates of technical substitution. The Scottish Labour movement, and the SNP, were typical Luddites and refused to accept that the industrial landscape was going to change anyway- they say the public purse as being a bounty of subsidies to failing industry. The problem with the decline in heavy industry is that, in a free society, consumers will buy what they want and from whoever they want- and those of us who are older than most will remember the crap that British industry turned out. Countries like Germany and Japan did well in the export markets because they were selling what people wanted, at the price they wanted, and at the quality they wanted.

William Macdonald

she sold off social housing stock without building new

She caused The Falklands and sent hundreds of soldiers to their death for no reason.

Cecilia Fisher

as for the bet you would lose ,generations of my family went down the pits .i lived in the chicago of north look it up

Helen Baglee

Ian Jerram Why the heck should I think about her family. Im not obliged to feel anything for her. She is ancient and incapacitated so maybe her family will be relieved she will be at peace. There is a reason left and centre minded people hate her. The very reason they are left or centre or both. She effected their lives for the worst. If someone sends you into poverty or sends messages being gay is wrong or destroys your mining village. Erm you have a right to hate her. Right wing moral protests are always hysterical and feeble.

Frank Webster

Cecilia, I looked at your page- you are so obviously SNP- so don't get on to me about closing dockyards- the SNP would close whatever is left of the defence industry, because they are anti-military... it's like saying "Oh the Tories are going to close RAF such and such because it's in Scotland"... we all know that the SNP would close such bases anyway because they don't like the Armed Forces... which as an Anglo-Scottish Yorkshireman, one side miners t'otherside Forces, is an insult to Scotland's great contribution to the Union.

Frank Webster

Okay, Cecilia- well my great-grandfather was Deputy at Brodsworth, the largest and most productive pit in the Doncaster coalfield. He told my granddad to keep well away from working the pits- given that great-grampy Webster was covered in blue scars and injuries from a-million-and-one accidents.

Helen Baglee

Oh yes - and my dad was a day off leaving for the Falklands when the war was hailed a victory. We were lucky, others werent. Another reason to hate her. Feelings getting stronger now!

Aarran Craig McPherson

The fact is that Maggie did more harm than good to the majority of hard working lower and middle class families in the UK and many leaders have tried to change this but it will not be easy to repair something Maggie destroyed.

Joseph Gray

I don't like milk so I love her.

William Macdonald

She sold them off to Galtieri first before having to go to war because the right wing of her party were not happy, shes a hypocrit and a war criminal!

William Macdonald

almost as bad as Blair!

William Macdonald

she loved milk thats why she took it away from the kids

Mick Constable

Funny thing with all this, hardly anyone on here is Right Wing, at worse Right of Centre, most are either side of the centre line with a few teetering on falling off the left pecipice.

But if a straight forward left and right suits everyone, hey lets go for it .

William Macdonald

lol Mick your right wing and dont even know it!

William Macdonald

thats what being right of centre means! doh!

Aarran Craig McPherson

Although I do regret one thing, they kicked her out before 1992, had they left her Kinnock would have won and I have always (even when I was a Tory) liked Kinnock!

Mark Caudery

I don't know Aarran. Again, I'm not too aware of the that era but I'm reliably informed Kinnock lost because the press were so against him, otherwise he it is widely believed that he was set to become PM.

Frank Webster

Aarran, you're talking rubbish- I can easily dig up the statistics to disprove that statement. Either you've been reading too many left-wing pamphlets or you were a Tory without understanding why you were a Tory. I am a Tory because I detest socialist compulsion, wasteful spending and "a pick a winner" industrial policy- and believe in strong families, hard-work and personal freedom under the rule of law. Socially I am a liberal, in that I do not approve of social engineering or bowing to the "moral majority", but fiscally I am a conservative who believes in keeping the budget in balance and ensuring low interest rates and low inflation to keep growth going.

William Macdonald

then your on very dodgy ground frank because since the 40's the Tories have a worse record on the economy than Labour do, you clearly havent a scooby doo about the facts and have fallen for the rhetoric instead!

Aarran Craig McPherson

Ok PoliticsUK I am abotu to amaze you with some facts from my past you may have all thought I was alwas a Tory up until a month or so ago but nope infact at the General Election I backed Labour and Brown and I also voted in the Labour Leadership Election for Ed Balls.

Joseph Gray

Why so much hatred?

William Macdonald

in what regard Joseph?

Cecilia Fisher

btw frank why did you go on my page ,as for the snp being anti military get a grip man ,they do however as do i feel that as we are such a small country we have no need to spend countless millions spill the blood of our soldiers in arid deserts in an illegal wars or have wmd park in our waters

Helen Baglee

he messed it up himself - he appeared far too pleased with himself at a Rally some days before. They reckon even if the Sun hadnt been against him that may well have turned his appeal right down. Have seen the clip - its pretty bad.

Mark Caudery

lol Aarron, that's shocking behaviour!

Aarran Craig McPherson

Hahaha, I do not know why I crossed over to the Tories I have come from a Labour/Socialist supporting family and in fact the only Tory in my family is my grandfather and even then he is on the fringes.

Helen Baglee

how did you vote for Ed Balls - were you a labour member too? :) love it!

Aarran Craig McPherson

I was indeed Helen.

Frank Webster

I have the statistics in front of me, William- the Tories didn't do too bad on the main indicators, but they hardly helped themselves with "stop-go" economic policies. Thatcher's first term was blighted with the fall-out from the Heath era, and to be fair to Denis Healey he tried to fix the damage but had to keep the Labour left and the Liberals happy; and then Maggie's achievements were damaged by macroeconomic turbulence- the Treasury became complacent and thought "We've done it, we can sit back and relax". Major's time was blighted by the ERM debacle- we were right to join, but we joined at the wrong time and the wrong place in the cycle, but I remember Ken Clarke leaving us with a healthy economy and growth well on the up and unemployment well on the decline.

Mark Caudery

Always worth exploring the options, Aarron.

Frank Webster

Best Tory Chancellors- Howe (a man with balls of steel who wouldn't bend when Maggie got wobbly, like in 1981); Clarke (didn't listen to Treasury mandarins and went by gut instinct); Lamont (paved the way for Clarke's legacy, but wrongly took the flak for Black Wednesday).

Helen Baglee

Yup hedging your bets - where you scared of coming out as Labour? Surrounded by Tories? So glad you arent living a double life anymore! :)

William Macdonald

ok Frank lets look at the actual facts on the economy!

Frank Webster

Cecilia, I always check out my opponents to see what I can find... and I actually opposed the Iraq war because I did not think that Blair et al had made any case that suggested military intervention was necessary- I think that Iraq is now in a worse state than it was a decade ago.

Aarran Craig McPherson

Well for months I was starting to doubt I'll use th word "faith" in the Tories and now I am not a member of any party, hahaha. In the end it was a case of "Am I in too deep or should I swim for the shore?" When Murd Fraser was not elected as leader of the Scottish Tories I knew that was it game over for the Tories in Scotland and for me as a die hard supporter, if they reform drastically I will look into rejoining but not any time soon I do not think.

Frank Webster

William, I am looking at the actual facts of the economy- inflation, interest rates, savings rates, consumption rates and the scale and magnitude of budget deficits. That's all one needs to consider- anything else is purely a matter of secondary importance.

William Macdonald

IN 51 Labour handed over an economy in surplus!!

the Tories turned that into a 4% deficit by 53!it then hovered around a 2 or 2.5% deficit until the Tories were booted out in 64.

By 1970 when Labour were leaving office again the economy was in surplus by 2%!!!

The Tories very quickly turned that into a 6% deficit over the next 4 years, Labour again came into office in 74 and evnetually got the deficit down to 4% before the Tories took office again under Thatcher.

She then held the economy in deficit untill 1988 10 years of deficit, then it was 2 years of surplus (the Tories first since Labour handed them one in 1970)then quickly again turned it into a 8% deficit.

when they handed over in 97 it was still in deficit of 2%!!

So in total they had the economy in surplus for 3 years since 51!!!

now how the hell can you claim they are bloody good on the economy???

William Macdonald

your clearly not looking at the facts Frank and looking instead at the rhetoric because the facts would lead anyone to conclude that the Tories havent a bloody clue when it comes to the economy!!!

Aarran Craig McPherson

I think that famous line "You can't trust the Tories with the NHS" could also be used on the economy.

William Macdonald

indeed the evidence would agree with you Aarran

Frank Webster

You clearly don't understand that economic cycles create deficits and surpluses; you also forget that the Tories merely followed the policies of Labour Chancellor Hugh Gaitskell, with a slight pause, until 1979. Most people don't know the difference between a structural deficit and a cyclical deficit- the Tories ran a cyclical deficit, which is not a matter to worry about in reality because somewhere in the cycle there'll be a surplus to cancel that deficit out. A structural deficit, which Brown ran up, is a different matter- no level of growth cancels it out, it's a bit like maxing out a credit card and then taking out another card an maxing that one out.

William Macdonald

lol I'm sorry but excuse me while I laugh at your utterly feeble attempts to blame 13 years of deficit in the 50's and 60's and 10 years in the 80's on Labour it sounds so funny to actually hear a Tory say that out loud !!!!

William Macdonald

you clearly have no grip on reality Frank hahah

William Macdonald

honestly you need to give up now before you make even more of a fool of yourself!

Aarran Craig McPherson

Now now, guys lets not get personal.

William Macdonald

and the fact that you resort to the credit card analogy which has been so discredited just goes to show how little you understand of the economy!

William Macdonald

ahhh of course all becomes clear now your a follower of Freidman!!! hahaha

Cecilia Fisher

frank how am i an opponent its an fb page not a boxing match ,taking it a bit to far imo

William Macdonald

Freidman extolls the virtue of a free market but look what happened in 2008 when banks were not regulated!!! lol talk about failure!

Frank Webster

You obviously didn't read it properly, William, and BTW I graduated in Economics. The Tories of the 1950s and 1960s were, with a few salient differences, barely indistinguishable from Labour on economic policy- hence The Economist magazine's caricature Mr. Butskell (based on Tory Chancellor Richard Butler, and Labour Chancellor Hugh Gaitskell). What I was trying to say- and I'll say it in plain English- is that Maggie's deficit was cyclical, although it came unstuck when it was found that the Treasury forecasts were grossly over-optimistic (monetary policy was too lax and Lawson took a gamble based on those forecasts- and lost), which led to a structural deficit. However, all of Maggie's later woes were caused by cutting interest rates in the mid-1980s after the stock markets took a plunge (a mere correction of asset prices, nothing more)- Maggie cacked herself and had the bank rate cut to avert a supposed recession (the predicted recession of 1985-87 did not happen, as it was just asset prices adjusting).

Frank Webster

William, I understand the economy very well- what I learnt from my degree was not to trust econometric models, but go by gut-instinct. I predicted the last recession right enough, although I was six months too early and thus lost a bet with a relative. And I also betted with an estate-agent friend that interest rates will still be at 0.5% on January 22nd 2012- and the way things are looking I will be going to get my £20.

Aarran Craig McPherson

I will agree MacMillan was a Keynesian and fairly Left wing but I am not entirely sure if he had the same policies as Labour on the economy. I know he was a good left wing Tory in fact the Daily Record even wished him good luck I believe.

Cecilia Fisher

OH DEAR aaran the daily retard lolololololloolol

Aarran Craig McPherson

Hahaha, must admit I do not like the paper myself, I read The Guardian although recently I have found it is too Anglocentric so I read The Herald, Press and Journal and The Scotsman.

Frank Webster

Aarran, as I said- there were salient differences, but the emphasis on Keynesian 'demand management' was exactly the same; although I would hardly describe Macmilan's support for capital punishment as 'left wing'... I would agree with his son, another abolitionist.

Cecilia Fisher

newsnetscotland or the new online 1 scottish times ight be more up your street

William Macdonald

Lol I was going to say stop but this is pure comedy Frank.

Let me spell it our for you in the most simplistic terms as you seem hellbent on trying to make it as complicated and conviluted as possible to distract from the fact that the Tories screwed the economy time and time again.

Tories claim a deficit is bad!!!

Tories have had the economy in deficit for longer and more times than Labour hence the Tories are really really bad for the economy all the rest of the bluster you posted was completely irrelevant!

Clearly your economics degree was money wasted, by the way did we pay for you to do that!?

Aarran Craig McPherson

I'll give them a look Cecilia, I am always up for looking into new things.

Frank Webster

No, I did you cheeky bastard. And I am not against deficits per se, I am against wasteful deficits- the automatic stabilisers are unavoidable and if anything desirable. I should add that I am more a devotee of Samuel Brittan- who is if anything a Liberal sympathiser of the Old School. Oh I forgot, my father's side is "English", so I am automatically thick- typical SNP, anti-English to a tee. Shall I fuck off back to England now (even though I've lived up here since I left school)?

William Macdonald

well your half right with your label, but as I said all the attacks regarding Labours handling of the economy revovles around deficits and as I have clearly show the Tories are worst at that!

So to now claim that deficit isnt the biggest point of attack for Tories is either very naive on your part or very hypocritical.

Frank Webster

And I find it funny that Aarran understood what I was saying, but you did not William- but being an English immigrant (albeit of Scots and Irish ancestry), I am not blessed with the intelligence that apparently comes from socialism. I look forward to you, William, putting a brick through my window with a message reading "Immigrants fuck off".

Cecilia Fisher

who are you calling thick -typical SNP ,

Cecilia Fisher

FRANK you maybe should check all your opponents lol william is a unionist and lives in england IDIOT

William Macdonald

so we are no longer discussing how wrong you are about the economy and have moved on to something completely different?

Aarran Craig McPherson

Oh dear, not a deabte about the SNP, this will end in tears for someone, hahaha. Quick warning to all Cecilia can be quite formidable! I am not in favour of Scot's independence but I am in favour of a Federal UK with Scotland controlling everything bar certain Economic issues, defence and immigration.

Frank Webster

I said that I am thick, because I am not a pure Scot- being born in England and having a few English ancestors, and plus I am a convert to Catholicism. To the hardened SNP supporter, only a Protestant Scotsman with pure Scottish genes would be acceptable.

William Macdonald

and who gives a crap about your politics intelligence isnt related to your politics

Frank Webster

Well I am a Unionist too, but staunchly anti-Socialist and a believer in old-fashioned financial discipline. But as I say Cecilia, my Scots ancestors having married a few English makes me about as welcome in an independent Scotland as a shotgun at a pacifists' convention.

Cecilia Fisher

as i said you are an idiot pure and simple before you spout anymore tosh perhaps you should have some knowledge about what you are attempting to argue about

William Macdonald

I'm not an SNP supporter and havent lived in Scotland for the last 25 years

William Macdonald ‎

27 actually!

Cecilia Fisher

there are very few pure scots ,and the snp is 1 of the most diverse parties in the uk

Aarran Craig McPherson

Hmm, I think all my family were Scots I know the McPherson's owned a castle in Speyside for many centuries and were part of the Chattan Confederation my mother's side the Leslie's were from Garioch and owned a castle there too I think.

Frank Webster

I understand economics, probably better than anybody else here- but attempting to explain it to a bunch of implacable socialists is like trying to sell Hell to Jesus Christ. And I know all about Scottish Nationalism, such as their support for Hitler and the Nazis in World War Two, and Billy Wolfe's anti-Irish/Catholic sentiments, and Salmond's links to anti-English groups.

Cecilia Fisher

the only thing that would make you unwelcome is your myopic view of scotland and her people

Cecilia Fisher

as for throwing in the sectarian card good try but once again so far of the truth its bordering on lunacy

William Macdonald

So not only do you have no clue about economics you also are smug enough to think you know anything about the people on FB too from their profiles! lol

But I notice you have been unable to offer anything to counter the facts I provided about the appalling record of the party you support!

Its ok I think anyone would struggle to provide anything to support such an appalling record! lol

Jack Brock

Im flabergasted by Franks comments! My Gast is flabbererd! lol . Ejit on the loose or what? If you know nothing Say nothing Frank! lol

Frank Webster

The SNP is diverse whilst buying votes- if independence came we'd see their true colours: as I say, I could tell you all about the SNP's links to Nazi Germany in the 1930s; and the anti-English, anti-Irish and anti-Catholic sympathies that were more than apparent thirty years ago. Ironically, Andrew Dewar Gibb- a founder member of the SNP and a big fan of Mr Hitler- had served as a junior officer in the Royal Scots Fusiliers under a certain Lieutenant Colonel Winston Churchill (yes, the very same).

William Macdonald

some people are incapable of haudin their whisht no matter how ridiculous it makes them look!

Cecilia Fisher

lol jock you couldnt make it up ,tho he has tried he seems to live in diffrent scotland from me

Cecilia Fisher

godwins law anyone

Cecilia Fisher

frank i dont wish to be rude but you must be the most singulary ignorant person on this site ,

Frank Webster

Cecilia, I have met plenty of SNP members who are not only sectarian but very anti-English. I happen to speak as I find- and I have encountered plenty of racism as I have gone about my business in Scotland; at least once I fortnight I'll go to a shop, buy a pack of fags and have somebody mutter "English go home" the second they hear me asking- in broad Yorkshire accent- for a pack of fags.

Cecilia Fisher

well if i were you i would have these people charged with racism ,we do have laws in scotland you know ,and as for sectatarian you will not find sectariasm in the snp or any sort of english bias ,look at the snp front bench 3 englishmen ,very racist

Mark Caudery

Oh Tories don't have racists, do they?

Mark Caudery ‎

*sarcasm*

Aarran Craig McPherson

As a man who is studying Scot's Law Frank I would suggest you do report them, that is classed as a breach of the peace under the Public Order Act 1986 and can carry a sentence of up to 4 years.

Cecilia Fisher

as for nazis have you seen the news today frank ,

Frank Webster

Yes, we do Mark, and it disgusts me to the extreme- I do not like racism in any shape or form. And Cecilia, what about Billy Wolfe and his remarks about Catholics in Scotland? Okay, he was dealt with by those in the SNP- which is laudable- but I have come across SNP members who hold similarly sectarian views- but I am only a convert to Catholicism, being raised Episcopal (by Methodist and Presbyterian parents).

Cecilia Fisher

and as for muttering english go home ,im sure if someone held these sentiments they would be so polite ,it would probs be along the lines of F off ya english .... fill in the blanks ,however like i say if this has happened go to the police

Jack Brock

Frank ! Go and do something you do know about! Because you are making a complete fool of yourself ! Nice guy as you are.

Cecilia Fisher

frank there is no anti catholics in the snp ,this i know for a fact ,you really should make sure of your facts

Cecilia Fisher

well if what you say is true ,you will have the names of these members ,my advice is report them to the party and they will immeditally have their membership revoked

Frank Webster

I might just report them next time- although I really feel sorry for them because I wouldn't say anything offensive to a Scotsman in England. And as for Tory racists, could somebody please make them go away- I was mortified by the report about the "Nazi stag-do" in the papers this morning; I can understand girls in tutus with loud sashes and the like, and (perhaps) blokes tying the naked groom to a lamp-post, but what that lot did in France- I country I love- was disgraceful.

Cecilia Fisher

in fact i am so incensed by what you say ,pm the names of these members and i will have them excluded tommorow ,the SNP is fighting tooth and nail to combat sectarianism in scotland this will not be tolerated

Cecilia Fisher

i will pm the party secretory in the morning and you will have a reply and an apology that i can guarentee you

Frank Webster

They are perfectly entitled to their opinions- people who are close friends of mine from Northern Ireland can get away with comments, because I will play along. Anyway, I have better things to do than go round reporting people- I prefer to leave them alone so that somewhere along the way they can majorly cock-up; a bit like a former Tory- who was heavily involved in our now Scottish leaders campaign who decided at the conference to have-a-go at a Jewish member from Stirling, he eventually got caught out.

Cecilia Fisher

OH NO you may think you have better things to do but the SNP cannot afford to be labelled as sectarian .and if we allow these people to get away with it it destroys everything the party stands for

Cecilia Fisher

and as you have now brought it to my attention as a ,

Cecilia Fisher

member of the SNP i am duty bound to report this

Cecilia Fisher

there will of course be an enquiry

12 December at 00:01 · Like

Frank Webster

Just leave them, no party can afford to be labelled as sectarian- they'll slip up and they'll get dealt with. As I say, people are entitled to their opinions, but it doesn't mean I have to like those opinions. Anyway, I'll give the SNP credit where it is due- it supports faith schools, as do I.

Cecilia Fisher

you have already labbellled them as sectarian racist anticatholics .and i want this stopped

Mark Caudery

I've seen nothing in the media about those kinds of problems with the SNP, so if there is any issue, it's probably very minor.

Frank Webster

Just leave it- my solution to such problems is to let them make bigger fools of themselves later. Anyway, the Tories could do with dealing some of their sectarian members too- although they dealt with Ross McFarlane, who is an odious little man (he'd be a good parrot, given that his beliefs seem to consist of soundbites).

Cecilia Fisher

yes mark and it has to be stamped on very heavily ,

Cecilia Fisher

even 1 member having these views is 1 too many but frank is giving the impression there are a few and it cannot be allowed

Frank Webster

There's sectarianism to a degree in all parties; Labour has its own dirty secrets too (Adam Ingram might know something about that). As for my political affiliations, I belong to the Tory left-of-centre of a good number of issues.. I have no time for idiots such as Daniel Hannan and Roger Helmer (if the NHS was privatised, it'd be over my dead body- especially as I use an NHS dentist).

Cecilia Fisher

so are you prepared to give a statement to the party secretery then frank ,it would be for the best

Frank Webster

No, because it doesn't really bother me that much... as I say, there is sectarianism, to a degree, in all four of the major parties. I will continue fighting sectarianism in my party, which is my duty.

Cecilia Fisher

yes frank and it is my duty to report it to my party ,and i do feel i have a duty to report it regardless now its been brought to my attention

Frank Webster

SNP officials will know that it does exist within their party, but trying to prove it can be difficult. The only way to prove such a thing is to hope that such people are stupid enough to film or record themselves doing it, just like Ross McFarlane, or to catch them in the act. Anyhow, in the event of me meeting people from other parties- we usually avoid politics and discuss other things, as I have a lot more interests than politics- such as rugby league and model-making.

Cecilia Fisher

or people are prepared to stand up and name and shame .as i said i will report it anyway

Frank Webster

Naming and shaming is harder to do, as I say you need absolute proof. But I can take sectarianism on the chin- offensive as I find it. Though one way I've found to deal with sectarian folk is to remind them of the Catholic 16th Division and the Protestant 36th Division at Messines- for when the whistles blew and the men went over, the boys from both sides cheered each other on and sang each others' songs, and I shall add that we took Messines Ridge (with much valuable help from the Australians, the New Zealanders and the Scots).

Helen Baglee

see what talking about Maggie does!!! Glad I went to bed. Er!!

Ian Jerram

I always know why I dislike the far right, their bigotted racist views. It takes debates like this to remind me why I detest the left as well. I must admist I didn't used to think Mrs. T should have a State Funeral...... I'm starting to change that viewpoint now.

Frank Webster

I am not sure, Ian, whether I agree with a state funeral for Maggie- but I do know that if Gordon Brown died tomorrow I would be wishing to pay my respects.

Ian Jerram

I agree Frank. People need to look beyond their political leanings and realise that there are relatives and friends who have to read som of this tripe ....

Helen Baglee

if there is a state funeral for her.....expect big anti funeral type activity. You think its uncouth now, wait till she does die. Not that I agree with dancing in the street but it will happen. Best to avoid state funeral I say

Andy Brown

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9t4-zDem1Sk

Helen Baglee

Thanks Andy! Have just been you tubing and my my my there is loads on thatcher dying - the day thatcher dies by Hefner is very catchy...will be tonights browsing activity, although prob avoid posting on here, Elvis C is most soulful. Good Post!

Frank Webster

The reason why I don't necessarily agree with a state funeral for Lady Thatcher is that no Prime Minister since Churchill has had a state funeral, and Churchill undoubtedly deserved a state funeral for his leadership in WW2. Stanley Baldwin dealt with the General Strike, and he didn't have a state funeral. I just look at things by way of precedent.

Do you believe the Human Right Act and ECHR are appropriate for the UK?

2011-12-30T16:12:00.000-08:00

Politics UK

http://www.echr.coe.int/echr/homepage_EN

We hear a lot of criticism about the Human Rights Act and the the European Court of Human Rights.
Do you believe the Human Right Act and ECHR are appropriate for the UK?

BBC News | UK | Human Rights Act: What the articles say

news.bbc.co.uk

Article-by-Article guide to the Human Rights Act.

H.A.

I believe that Human Rights are appropriate for everyone - but not if it is used to commit illegal activities. And thats all I have to say about that really.

J.Z.H.

Not at all, the EU idea does not take into account the needs and culture of individual nations, and what they seek to protect. If anything it is an attempt to use a similar aggressive foreign policy to the US government which seek to push their cultural philosophy onto other nations and peoples. The idea here seems to be the gradual erosion of borders by diluting national identities. I for one love and embrace the differences between European countries. Each has it's own history and common identity and Brussells should not in a few decade seek to destroy these identities which have taken hundreds or thousands of years to create.

K.M.

When I go to Spain, I go there because I want to see Spanish culture/people. The same applies all over the world. The EU is very anti European.

J.R.

It's not so much the Human Rights and and ECHR per se. It's more the implementation and judges' interpretation of it. Under European Law, if a nutter judge in Austria (for example) makes a judgement in relation to the ECHR, that precedent applies across Europe until or unless the court in Strasbourg says differently. Also, our own judges, have made some pretty weird interpretations too. The worry is that these judges are unelected and unaccountable - yet they are effectively creating law by their judgements. I'm not a fan of Tony Benn's politics generally, but he has some good things to say about power and democracy. He says there are three things to ask a person in power:

1) What power have you got?

2) Where did you get it from?

3) In whose interest do you exercise it?

4) To whom are you accountable?

5) And how can I get rid of you?

Ask these of a judge and you won't like the answers.

21 September at 11:34 · Like

James Rigby ‎*five things!

B.H.

The problem is in the wording. All sorts of unforeseen legal actions may be brought under the provisions; many of them deeply offensive to law-abiding and hard-working citizens.

K.M.

Nobody should interfere in others' laws. The people, not government, should decide the laws. Iran as an example, has some awful laws which it's people hate. But it's not up to any other country to change them, it's up to Iranians. Well, that's my view anyway.

F.G.

The ECHR fails in its most fundamental duty to uphold every ones international human Rights by each member state. Its duties should be limited to its involvement to uphold the EU treaties member states have signed so the first people on top of its hit list of cases should be all members of government who have broken the Maastricht treaty on Government Budgets and debts. Then it might gain more credibility and support by the people it supposed to serve rather than protect

S.F.

Only horrible things: right to life, not to be tortured, freedom of conscience... TERRIBLE indeed!!

S.F.

the HRA is independant from the EU so lots of the comments on this thread are fairly irrelevant to the subject.

K.F.

I struggle to get my head around the fact that people are outraged that their individual human rights are protected in law?

M.R.

So Fi....are you surprised?

M.R.

K.M......how would you suggest the people of the UK made laws?

M.R.

K.M....what happens in Spain that you feel is so un-Spanish? Lest I state the obvious, Spain is in Europe, as is the UK.....

M.R.

Perhaps people would be happier with the UN Declaration, which pre-dates the HRA by many years:http://www.un.org/en/documents/udhr/

F.G.

just a pity our human rights are not always upheld by those responsible for delivering and upholding law. Its them we often need protection from.

M.R.

The Universal Declaration of Human Rights (UDHR) is a declaration adopted by the United Nations General Assembly (10 December 1948 at Palais de Chaillot, Paris). The Declaration arose directly from the experience of the Second World War and represents the first global expression of rights to which all human beings are inherently entitled. It consists of 30 articles which have been elaborated in subsequent international treaties, regional human rights instruments, national constitutions and laws. The International Bill of Human Rights consists of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, the International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights, and the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights and its two Optional Protocols. In 1966 the General Assembly adopted the two detailed Covenants, which complete the International Bill of Human Rights; and in 1976, after the Covenants had been ratified by a sufficient number of individual nations, the Bill took on the force of international law.

M.R.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Convention_on_Human_Rights

M.R.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Rights_Act_1998

M.R.

Perhaps once people have read the above, they may understand what Human Rights are, and why they are as applicable in the UK as anywhere else in the World. I would be very interested in debating with anyone who has read to above, to hear why they feel Human Rights are not required in the UK....

J.Z.H.

The HRA isn't independent of the EU it's an integral part of membership of the union, and what you are describing are laws already in existance. Plus, it is not ethical for one nations constitution or laws to be dictated by others, unless they lead to suffering of the population under the state's government. Do not forget that the ECHR led to the creation of the European Court of Human Rights - a federal court which has the power to override legal rulings made by courts in member nations, as do foreign nationals within the EU have the power to interfere with other member states politics (see Art 16 of the ECHR). Kind of a slap in the face to any autonomy states have. The EU as pointed out above is most definitely anti-European, and the ECHR is a waste of time, as the existance of the protocols shows, and due to the fact that most countries have these laws already in place.

J.R.

As far as I can see the only problem (?) with the ECHR is that it actually rules and enforces human rights legislation, unlike the UN, which sits on it's hands whistling Dixie. I cannot think of an ECHR ruling that I have disagreed with but I guess there's time. Perhaps instead of whingeing people should cast their minds back to why we have HR legislation!?

M.R.

Joel....I think you have just destroyed your own argument.....yes, the ECHR should be a "back-stop", but strangely the UK did not have Human Rights legislation until 1998!

Alan Wyllie

I was so proud when the HRA came into Law. We(The UK) should be proud of that act.

J.R.

Look back to the dark days before the Human Rights Act was passed. All that torture, slavery, unlawful imprisonment, free speech and association limited that went on in the 50,s 60s, 70s and 80s.

K.F.

You have confused me more Joel ? How can you object to your human rights being protected , wherever you may be in Europe ?

I can only imagine how apoplectic with rage you would be if your human rights were legally protected right across the globe!

A.P.

The key thing here is that the ECHR is not always consistent with the prevailing views of the British population. Britain has a democratically elected parliament and I don't think it's acceptable for the European courts, presided over by unelected judges and unelected European Commissioners, to gainsay that view. There have been several cases where the ECHR has been at odds with the majority of the British public.

Beyond that, the ECHR represents part of a much wider issue with the European Union.

From Wikipedia:

"Member States cannot exercise competence in areas where the Union has done so."

These areas include:

the internal M.R.et

social policy, for the aspects defined in this Treaty

economic, social and territorial cohesion

agriculture and fisheries, excluding the conservation of marine biological resources

environment

consumer protection

transport

trans-European networks

energy

the area of freedom, security and justice

common safety concerns in public health matters, for the aspects defined in this Treaty

The areas mentioned pretty much cover all aspects of government. In essence, the Lisbon Treaty gives the EU license to almost entirely sideline national government over time and I don't consider that to be acceptable.

A.P.

S.F."Only horrible things: right to life, not to be tortured, freedom of conscience... TERRIBLE indeed!!"

You've glossed over the the lack of a right to eject those that enter the country from abroad and break its laws.

S.F.‎

"You've glossed over the the lack of a right to eject those that enter the country from abroad and break its laws."

Did I?

S.F.

‎\\http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/cameron-threatens-to-scrap-human-rights-act-477989.html\\

S.F.

‎"* Neither the convention nor the European Court is linked to the EU or Brussels. The ECHR is a separate international agreement signed by 46 countries, including Russia and Turkey."

So Fi

‎\\http://www.liberty-human-rights.org.uk/human-rights/human-rights/the-human-rights-act/human-rights-act-myths/index.php\\

"The HRA was independently passed by the UK Parliament in 1998. It incorporates the Convention for the Protection of Human Rights and Fundamental Freedoms. The Convention was adopted by the Council of Europe in 1950 – a body set up after WWII to promote democracy, human rights and the rule of law in Europe. This body is completely separate to the EU. The UK played a major role in the negotiations and drafting of the Convention which it voluntarily adopted in 1951. "

S.F.

So again if you want to discuss the merits of being or not being in the EU please start a new thread.

M.R.

James...there were indeed instances of torture and unlawful imprisonment and restriction on free speech before 1998, and they continue....but at least now we have a framework whereby people can now obtain justice....

F.G.

they might have passed it but they blatantly ignore it and no court holds it up unless its pressured too. Dont be fooled about OUR RIGHTS cos I can assure you few care to be honest

M.R. Adam.....let me see "The key thing here is that the ECHR is not always consistent with the prevailing views of the British population. Britain has a democratically elected parliament"....and the British Government brought in its own Human Rights Act.....are you saying that because you, personally, happen to disagree with Human Rights legislation, that you represent the whole country? Perhaps we are "not worthy" to debate with you?

M.R.

Frank...still on Planet Paranoia?

K.M.

Welcome back M.R..

M.R., we already have our own laws in the UK, why do we need anybody else interfering with them?

K.M.

On the Spain comment, M.R., the same thing happens in Spain as what happens here in the UK. It doesn't feel very British anymore in 'some' parts of the UK. As Joel put it "The idea here seems to be the gradual erosion of borders by diluting national identities."

So go one, call me the 'B' word......

K.M.‎

*on, lol :o/

K.M.

Plus it took me years to learn Spanish, lol, so I really hope they don't lose their national language ;)

A.K.

The European convention of Human rights in the main is a good thing..But Strasbourg has too much power and overides member states legal systems...As we saw with the votes for priosoners...If we had not complied we would be open to fines or compensation claims..

Some of the laws are stupid like how curved a banana should be...a yorkshire pud must be baked in Yorkshire.....I think we need to get back to go old common sense...

This charter is not working we need a plan B....

S.O.

‎"New research out this week shows one in seventeen (6%) people lose their home after being diagnosed with cancer and one in six (18%) have difficulties in keeping up with their mortgage or rental payments.

For those with cancer who are self-employed, the figure is higher still with one in nine (11%) losing their home, according to Macmillan Cancer Support, who say over 250,000 people are diagnosed with cancer in the UK each year."

These are myths, total lies created by the rubbish British tabloid press!

A.P.

No M.R., I'm absolutely positive that the majority of people would want foreigners convicted of crimes such as rape to be deported. You're not seriously suggesting otherwise are you?

A.P.‎

6% of people diagnosed with cancer lose their homes? Do only 6% of cancer sufferers die? Sorry, bad taste!

S.F.

wrong thread dear!

M.J.N

I think we need to scrap both and introduce a UK Bill of rights. The new bill must have proper rights, not 'right' which allow for criminal activity.

M.R.

Adam....refresh my memory, where do you live?

R.F.

Skip to the end without reading anything then post my own opinion... ECHR rocks. We shouldn't need it of course, but our country is just too full of sociopathic scumbags who can't tell rights from wrongs.

Should the UK ban females wearing a burka as France did? 11/4/11

2011-12-30T15:32:00.000-08:00

Politics UK

Is this the right way to go?

French veil curbs come into force

www.bbc.co.uk

A law comes into force in France making it an offence for a Muslim woman to conceal her face behind a veil in public.

C.T.

Forcing a woman to refrain from wearing a veil is just as bad as forcing her to wear one. I fear that women in hardline families will be kept at home rather than allowed out without a veil.

K.L.M.

The one thing I can never underatand about Islam/muslims, is how can they aspire to emulate their prophet Mohammad, who it is said killed hundreds of people, many of whom were Jews? He also had many wives, including a Jewish slave, and he is alleged to have married Aisha when she was only 6, he used to practice 'thighing' on Aisha, where he would
basically massage his penis inbetween her legs, as she was too young for penetration, when Aisha was 9, they then consumated the marraige.
He was more like a soldier, and nothing like Jesus who spread the word of peace through verbal means and magic tricks, but Mohammad spread the word of Islam by the sword.
So how can muslims think that he was a good guy? And wish to emulate his life?
Any muslims here? I would like to hear their thoughts.

Alan J B Wyllie

http://mohammad.islamway.com/?lang=eng

Just for you Karen

K.L.M.‎

????? :-/

F.A.

Mohammad was according to scripture chosen directly by god to hear his word directly. the quaran is therefore written by god himself. from that muhammad became the most important prophet of allah and jesus is sort of deputy prophet. as for his life that's not too important since its about following the scripture not copying muhammad's life. just as the bible includes many things jesus abhorred. if you believe in that thing of course but as an atheist and a pluralist i strongly recommend the Quaran, its a great book and most will be pleasantly surprised to find its not the hate filled dogma most fear. as far as the veil is concerned i feel for those women who genuinely want to wear it out of a passionate belief in god and i support their right to do so. to resort to a cliche france is using a sledgehammer to crack a nut.

Alan J B Wyllie

Use this one mate if you want. I was on your board last nioght, It was very enjotable :-)

Richard Frazer

lol - must look after our eight legged friends.

Getting back to the subject - Am I not right in thinking that the French laws are not purely aimed at Muslims though as it would also stop other religions wearing tokens too?

R.S.

F.A.you are full of shit, are you a muslim? I very much doubt you are athiest, trying to pull people into Islam are we. I can see what you're trying to do. I'll stick with real athiesm and I won't lie about it.

L.R.

Nah of course the quran isn't filled with hate..............'

L.R.

Believers, do not make friends with any but your own people....they desire nothing but your ruin....you believe in the entire book................When they meet you they say:'We too are believers', But when alone, they bite their fimngertips with rage. Sura 3:118. 119

L.R.

And I could find many more examples of hate directly preached from Al Qur'an....methinks you lie about being athiest Fraser........

L.R.

www.thereligionofpeace.com/attacks-2010.htm

N.H.

I heard on the radio today someone references a cartoon that had appeared in Private Eye.

It was two muslim men discussing the issue and one says to the other

"I don't know what all the fuss is about. If this becomes law she simply won;t be allowed out at all"

Quite amusing at first though I suspect this might be closer to the truth than one thinks for some people!

On the issue of clothing, There is much clothig that offends me. For example. Manchester United tops. I don't see I have the right on this issue to have anything more than an opinion anymore than that of Man Utd tops.

The law seems perfectly adequate and empowers a bus driver, for example, to ask a veil wearing woman to lift her veil for ID purposes or else refuse travel. Similar at the airport.

And also, would it apply to full face motor cycle helmets? I appreciate that you should wear one when you are riding but at some point you stop and get off. Are then, albeit momentarily then breaking the law before you get a chance to remove it???

K.L.M.

They're a safety issue though are they not?

N.H.

How Karen?

J.M.

The qu'ran is a mediaeval instruction manual for conquering other peoples’ countries, and is full of hate filled scriptures.

K.L.M.

A motor cycle helmet protects the rider from skull injury.....

K.L.M.

A burkha is just a way of muslim women hiding their features because they wish to preserve their beauty for their husbands. Which is fine, a long as they aren't forced to do this.

P.s. Liverpool jerseys offend me, lol

K.L.M.

I think so too Jackie, after having read quite a few suras myself. It's totalitarian and there is no democracy in Islam imho.

N.H.

K.L.M.said "A motor cycle helmet protects the rider from skull injury....."

Yes but it is also a full face device that can be worn at other times, for example, walking down the road.

N.H.

K.L.M.said "A burkha is just a way of muslim women hiding their features because they wish to preserve their beauty for their husbands. Which is fine, a long as they aren't forced to do this."

INDEED!

N.H.

Also, when they've had a bad hair day and/or can't find their foundation cream

K.L.M.

Lololol Nik :) bad hair day, that's everyday for me :(

K.L.M.

Good point Olesegun!! :) this is true

K.L.M.

I don't know if France is doing the correct thing, but I do know that many muslims in Europe are allegedly 'not asimillating' into European life, and tend to segregate themselves from the rest of society, and I think that is a bad thing. It gives a 'them and us'

Impression. :(

N.H.

I've got a beautiful wife who has given me my lovely children. I'm proud of her.

Can't understand a man so insecure they're not afraid to be proud of their wife

T.P.

I guess it depends on if you're religious or not, or if you have sympathies towards religious people. Let's be honest, the burqa is oppressive. Of course, women do choose to wear them, but I would suggest that is only due to their upbringing. If the idea is to reduce oppression of women - on a humanitarian level - then I think this is a good thing and focus shouldn't be on if you'll offend someone or not. You're always going to offend someone. At the end of the day, you'd like to think your government are in a position where they can make decisions without interruption of opinion-ridden-religion. The first point made on this was good, about how forcing to not wear one is similar to forcing them to wear them... This is true. Instead of making a law to try and do what they fear saying they should just come out and say it. It's oppressive. End of.

G.T.

It's so they can play away without anyone noticing if you ask me. Sneaky feckers!!

M.R.

Karen......would you describe yourself as an Islamophobe? Have you no respect for anybody else's opinions and beliefs?

M.R.

Jackie.....ooops...there's a Union Jack.........there's a racist comment? Coincidence?

M.R.

Well, on the basis that the French law is intolerant and is directed at one religious creed......I, for one, as a Christian, think its wrong....

N.H.

Me also and completely unneccesary. We have laws that deal with face coverings already.

Richard Frazer

It is a vote winner for a poorly liked president. It even says that in the story. I think that all people should have to identify themselves in security situations . . . which I think is already the case. I understood that this was a purely secular law where all religious icons could not be worn out but i was wrong. This is purely aimed at one religious tradition! So I am with Mark and Nik on this it is prejudice and will achieve little in a country where so few people wear this sort of costume anyway. A law that allowed the police to identify the individuals if they needed to would surely suffice.

Richard Frazer

As far as I understand the Burka is not written into the Koran (may be wrong) so it is traditional not religious. . . perhaps the definition needs to be found. It is of arabic decent not muslim.

PoliticsUK - Thread of the day 30/12/11

2011-12-30T13:34:00.000-08:00

Politics UK

Strikes Wave Due 2012: Brian Strutton has said '‘We detect a reawakening among our private sector members of their bargaining strength.'. Claiming Britain should prepare for wave of strikes.
(Brian Strutton, the moderate national secretary of the GMB)
RMT transport union General Secretary Bob Crow has forecast that there will be a "new year of militancy and resistance."

FURTHER REFERENCE: http://bit.ly/uJVPt4

Is this reasonable? Fair? Should the strikes be supported?

Unions warn that strike threat remains |

www.politicshome.com

J.A.

Oh no. Strikes?!? You get more money if they change jobs or work harder. Why mess with other lives?

Mark Caudery

I'll be supporting the strikes. About time people stood up to the exploitation that's going on.

Richard Frazer

Does it not depend on who is striking and for what reason?

Kathy M Johnson

My support is still there as well Mark, it is way past time we stood up to all employers not just the government who should be protecting the people not exploiting them.

Richard Frazer

What if strikers’ demands are unreasonable?

Mark Caudery

For me personally Richard, nope. I'm for any peaceful demonstration of people power/civil disobedience at the moment because I'm sick of social and economic decline I've seen my whole life.

Mark Caudery

Well said Kathy!

Cecilia Fisher

According to the rabid right on here .asking to be paid is unreasonable as for working conditions forget it

Mark Caudery

Aye... They would very much like to return us to feudalism rather than advance us from failed capitalism.

Cecilia Fisher

But the I’m all right jacks .will condemn [no pun] condemn and condemn.

Mark Caudery

Kind of entertaining really. lol

Mark Caudery

In a very predictable kind of way.

Cecilia Fisher

Yes the usual suspects, will be out in all their foaming, frothing at the mouth force lol

Richard Frazer

I hate those people. . . who said that?

Richard Frazer

I will get you a tartan colour tissue Cecilia to wipe your mouth

Richard Frazer

I think it matters immensely to analyse what the protesters demands are before you choose to support or not support them

A.R.W.

I support any action which disrupts the Tory program of cuts, privatisation of essential services, erosion of working/civil rights & exploitation of the poor/sick/disabled.

Richard Frazer

What if that action bankrupts the country? You do realise that you may have destroyed peoples’ lives to get your revenge on the evil Tory's

G.M.

It's about time the unions were given some credit for standing up for the workers and people realize that the unions are just normal working folks after all!

Mark Caudery

Too late for that, Richard. Tories and their city of London chums have done huge damage to the country already.

Cecilia Fisher

mmmmmmmmm I think I’m very far from rabid right Richard you won’t see me frothing and foaming, about the irresponsible selfish holding the country to ransom strikers .NO the only unions I agree with lol

Richard Frazer

I am not opposing strike action. . . I am just saying that we should always analyse the demands before we support the strike action. What if the demands are too great?

Mark Caudery

If they're too great, the government best do a good job in negotiations.

Richard Frazer

Cecilia - They have not declared what they are doing yet. . . so how can you agree with an action that has not taken place or been called yet. That is blind faith they are calling something reasonable

Cecilia Fisher

Some see any demands as to great .as long as I’m alright jack

Richard Frazer

Just like I am not as you clearly think I would. . . blindly opposing them. They may have a point

Richard Frazer

What if. . . just if they come to an amicable settlement before strike action. Would you then say that no strike is fine? As the strike has not happened. Or would you still want the strike?

Brian Strutton has said '‘We detect a reawakening among our private sector members of their bargaining strength.'

Cecilia Fisher

Richard at no point on this thread have I mentioned you, do you see a reflection of yourself in my statements
A.R.W.

What would you prefer Richard? People standing up for their rights in a peaceful, coordinated fashion or riots which will cost more, destroy lives and result in untold misery?

Richard Frazer

You are right I do not think strikes are wrong

Mark Caudery

Not sure that would be possible for me at this stage, Richard. We have a long way to go before I'll be satisfied. :D

Cecilia Fisher

Ah now you’re trying to get me to say its o.k. to strike for strikes sake .grow up Richard

Richard Frazer

Allan - Are you sure they are the only options available?

Mark Caudery

Sadly Richard, in our "democracy", protest is indeed about the only option we have to influence things.

Cecilia Fisher

And are you sure they are not, Richard

Richard Frazer

However you can see my point though. . . it you follow union strikes without analysing what they are asking for and about. If those actions are solved before they go to strike are you then blindly following the resolution to without knowledge of the outcome? So are you a follower or leader of your own ideology?

Mark Caudery

Lost me there Richard. Too many leaps of logic going on.

Richard Frazer

I influence lots of things in my local community. I personally have added over £20,000 to charity through my actions last year.

I have many contacts in the local council. I am but an individual. Imagine if everyone were activists for positive outcomes and not disruption.

Cecilia Fisher

If they are resolved before strike action, then it follows there is no strike .DOH

Richard Frazer

Blind faith in following. . . or analysising and choosing informed decisions is a summary

Richard Frazer

But at the start of this thread everyone was fully for strike action attached the above threads. However the discussions have not started yet.

So you are for strike, yet strike is not determined yet.

If there is no strike. . . are you disappointed and want to still practice civil disobedience or are you happy the government has resolved things amicable with the workers involved?

Cecilia Fisher

Imagine if employers stuck to their terms and conditions, or paid a decent wage

A.R.W.

No, negotiation is always essential - however with this lot it's a case 'we're doing it anyway' leaving unions & workers with little option but to strike. As for riots, I remember well the Poll Tax debacle where Thatcher ploughed on regardless, not listening to her own advisers, which resulted in people exploding in a violent manner.

Mark Caudery

I've already stated my opinion on that Richard. No point repeating it and spamming up the thread further.

Richard Frazer

I am not sure you have answered.

Plus I was answering Cecilia.

'If there is no strike' - You are for civil disobedience anyway?

Not sure that was an answer

'Are you for blindly following or analysing and making an informed decision?' - You said you did not understand the more substantial question in reference to waiting to understand the demands before supporting.

Mark Caudery

No point Richard, you aren't really interested in our opinions anyways. You clearly want to twist what we say to suit your own agenda.

Richard Frazer

Allan - Negotiation is a slow but crucial process. Don't forget the negotiated positions are what the strikers took in the last strikes. The decisions were made before the strike went out. So the strike achieved nothing new. Negotiation was the success of the last strike. So to say 'this lot' don't do negotiation is wrong. The strikers negotiated and accepted the numbers in front of them. Yet still went out on strike.

Cecilia Fisher

What the f are you waffling about Richard /

Richard Frazer

Don't worry Cecilia it is all interesting stuff. . . I will summarise later

Richard Frazer

I am interested you are simply avoiding every question posed because they are uncomfortable

Mark Caudery

If you say so, Richard.

Cecilia Fisher

What question that makes any sense are you asking, do I support a strike when negotiations have worked,

Cecilia Fisher

If negotiations have worked there is no need to strike

Richard Frazer

I see so you are supporting the Unions and trust the unions to make the decisions as opposed to understanding the details of their demands directly?

Cecilia Fisher

however if you are asking if I support all strikes .then on principle yes .as they are the only avenue left open in a lot of cases

L.W.

I'm with Richard on this. You have to know specifics before you can back anything. Let’s see what negotiations can reveal.

A.R.W.

Oh yes, great negotiating went on there Richard, which left the Unions no option but to go on strike because the Tories weren't for turning. And almost immediately afterwards Osborne announced 1% pay rises for the next three years - an act of revenge if I ever saw one!

Mark Caudery

lol what a farce!

Richard Frazer

I am glad you agree Lilu. . . I thought it was just me for a second

Richard Frazer

Allan - you misunderstand what happened. The negotiations were concluded, but the unions had already voted to strike so they did. There were no other demands on the table.

If the negotiations HAS NOT of concluded the strikers would not have got the original negotiated demands because they were an offer. That is how we all know they were agreed before strike.

Mark Caudery

Considering strikes happen as a result of democratic decisions, I find it difficult to imagine not supporting a strike.

Richard Frazer

Mark - Do you always agree with democratic decisions?

Mark Caudery

Strange, that's not how I remember it, Richard.

Richard Frazer

Which part?

Mark Caudery

No Richard, but I never object to them.

Mark Caudery

The whole thing.

Richard Frazer ‎

"I support any action which disrupts the Tory program". 5 'likes' to this statement. However the Tory program is the government. Disrupting the government is costing many millions of people money, jobs and futures.

Is it right and fair to support the disruption of society without knowledge of the reasons for that disruption?

Richard Frazer

Which whole thing?

Mark Caudery

Collateral damage

Mark Caudery

Your whole account of the negotiations before the last strikes sounds false to me.

Richard Frazer

Actions 'costing many millions of people money, jobs and futures' is certainly not 'collateral damage' in my eyes. That is heartless.

Richard Fowler

I took stike action for the first time on the 30th Nov, it was a difficut decision as I didn't want to let people down with whom I provide a service, however it wasn't just because of the pensions that I took industrial action, I am very unhappy with the way that the conservatives are conducting business at peoples expense, mostly the poor an most vunerable, I felt that I needed to show my support for showing my discontent to a goverment who are streaming along regardless, there fore unless the Torys start to change tack and lisrten to people, including experts in their fields, I will be supporting strike action for the bigger picture.

Cecilia Fisher

The government is costing millions of jobs futures and money .

Mark Caudery

Now you're just exaggeration, Richard.

Mark Caudery

This is what the strikes are about for me... http://youtu.be/J0SPio6RE-s

#nov30 WHY I AM STRIKING

www.youtube.com

The Artist Taxi Driver

RMT transport union General Secretary Bob Crow has forecast that there will be a "new year of militancy and resistance."

Richard Frazer

Richard - Good on your mate. I like that reason to strike.

However a strike can only be called for a specific reason or reasons as it needs to be balloted.

The following strikes may not be for the right reasons. They may be for demands way beyond what is reasonable and we need to be vigilant that people are asking for fair and right amounts.

Society needs to be competitive in difficult times.

Cecilia Fisher

you do like to take it to extremes don’t you Richard the disruption of society ,is something only Tory governments do ,by the way I didn’t catch your answer to Anita ,about Thatcher letting Liverpool go in to de3cline .did you agree with Thatcher on that or not

Richard Frazer

Mark - I used direct quotes from the thread to ensure it was not exaggeration. I am being a careful as I can in this thread to avoid being accused of anything

Richard Frazer

Cecilia - If they are why add to the suffering. . . especially when negotiations were concluded.

Mark Caudery

Good idea Richard

Cecilia Fisher

You being accused .Richard .never lol. You are more evasive than Murdoch lol

Richard Frazer

Ahhh the other thread by Anita. . . that was such a fun thread lol

I answered the question on that thread a million times over!

Richard Fowler

Fantastic summing up by Artist taxi driver, and why I think we saw an unprecedented amount of people taking action.

Richard Frazer

http://www.badmouth.net/graphics/ateam_schultz.jpg

www.badmouth.net

Mark Caudery

Glad you like it Richard F. I'm out of work at the moment so striking is no option lol but that rant of his really struck a chord with me, and many others it sees. That vid got 157,844 hits, a lot more than the guy usually gets.

N.S.

Bob Crowe always sounds like an old fashioned union leader. I think his desire is to see the Government collapse. If Mrs T, was around I think they would have clashed a long time okay.

Mick Constable

Left Foot fantasizing again then , I see, enjoy :lol

Richard Frazer

I think he is a very interesting speaker and demands more attention. I know Alan is looking at using some of his stuff as we speak (you may have given him this). However I am sad to hear you are out of work. PM me with what you are looking for. You never know I may know people who could help.

Mark Caudery

Thanks Richard. It's okay I have things in the pipeline that are fine for me to focus on.

Richard Frazer

Hope so. Keep up the search. . . I have been made redundant in the past too. It is no picnic I know. (It is part of working in the car industry)

Mark Caudery

It's a reality for most people these days. Job security is very much a thing of the past.

A.R.W.

Hahaha @Mark Caudery loves that taxi fella, I find him very amusing, and quite apart from his language, and he does have a point. Not sure I would get into a cab if he was driving though!

Mick Constable

Your spot on there Mark, the days of a job for life are inexistent and people now need to compete against others for the good jobs, which is only right

Mark Caudery

Only to a limited extent Mick, people need some security just as businesses do.

R.G.

To strike is to withdraw labour or to create such a disturbance in production as to render it useless. The UK has the mark on it already for this and where did it get them. Only if there are politicians who can take the lead from striking can it ever work. I doubt if the opposition will chance it, then the government will sweep ahead in the polls and carry with it the electorate toward an election which will give it victory...over anti-establishment troublemakers! There is no point in striking, it causes to much hardship for others who belive they are not involved. It gives credibility to the government's hardline attitude...and it sends the absolutely wrong signals abroad. The answer is for the union leaders to appear to act with responsibly and talk to the electorate...as the Opposition has subsequently failed to do. Create a demand against the government that is valid...strikes will do the opposite!

L.Z.

For me, the 'disruption' argument doesn't have a leg to stand on. Suppose the government announced that all public sector salaries were to be dropped to half the minimum wage. If the unions went on strike, there'd be just as much disruption...See more

Richard Frazer

L.Z. - I agree with that strike situation. Fair and right to go to strike for that scenario.

Richard Frazer

Russell - You are absolutely right. The union bosses should be going to the media and talking directly to the public about the issues.

They have a lot of influence and the media would lap it up.

A lot more damage can be done in a populist movement.

A.K.

The problem is the Tories cannot grasp the concept that you cannot run a country like a company...What people have learned from running a business will not enable them to run a country...

A country is not a big corporation which exist to turn a profit...Services and healthcare are people’s democratic right this is their country it does not belong to ANY government company it belongs to the people...This is what millions of people all over the world are fighting for today...We are letting this Tory government take this away from us while paying for the Middle East countries to get what they and we THINK we have got...

William Macdonald

Job security or the lack of it shouldn’t be a reason for employers to push worse and worse working conditions!

L.Z.

‎@Richard: Where should the line be drawn then?

Richard Frazer

Depends on the industry. . . what is reasonable for that industry. . . which is also why strikes should not be sweeping. Just for specific needs

http://www.facebook.com/PoliticsUK/posts/167336390033376?notif_t=share_comment

"Socialism and Nazism are not so far apart" 29 October 2011

2011-12-30T10:44:00.000-08:00

K.L.M.

http://www.ukapologetics.net/frankfurt.html

"Socialism and Nazism are not so far apart"

The Influence of the Frankfurt School

www.ukapologetics.net

A consideration of the anti-Christian influence of the Frankfurt School, describing the plottings of this Marxist school of thought and how their influence can now clearly be seen in postmodernism and political correctness.

R.P.

You do a lot of research after our discussions ;-)

K.L.M.

A likkle ;) lol

R.F.

That article reeks of Breivikist 'Cultural Marxism' paranoia.

K.L.M.

I've no doubt in my mind, that the far left, as just as fascist as the far right.

Mark Roberts

K.L.M....I am sure you have a point....but, whereas I can point to many people and organisations who espouse far-right principles, can you really point to any regime, or person, on Earth now who you would say had "far left" principles?

K.L.M.

The UAF would be one such organisation in my mind, Mark. As for persons, I've encountered many on facebook.

R.F.‎

"I've no doubt in my mind, that the far left, as just as fascist as the far right."

You're using 'left' to mean economic left ie. socialism, and 'right' to mean authoritarianism - you're mixing two very different axes (why do people keep doing this?? :S). Under the definitions you just used, Soviet Communists are also far-right, and Fascists are also (slightly) on the left. Of course they have similarities. The main thing that unites them is authoritarianism, but it's possible to be 'far right' or 'far left' without that. Think Free-market 'Libertarians', or Anarchist Communists. Both on the extremes, but neither resembling authoritarian or 'Fascist' (another mixing of terms) regimes at all.

K.L.M.

No, there is fascism on the left.

http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/88634.Liberal_Fascism

H.A.

No they aren't K.L.M.. The national socialist party in Germany had a lot to answer for hun

A.B.

Since the fall of communism the "socialism similar to nazism" theory has been very popular-countless books written about it. The theory presumes that socialism is stalinism-where of course its not-there have been many democratic socialist movements and govts. People making the socialism=nazism argument are usually liberals-who are conviently forgetting the apalling crimes carried out in the name of liberalism-the slave trade, extermination of the native americans, colonialisation and european empire and of course violent exploitation of the working class at home

K.L.M.

Hi Hex, who aren't what? :-/

I think you should all read Greenberg's book :)

A.P.

How are UAF fascists ?

Alan J B Wyllie

According to one of my facebook "friends", the UAF is fascist because the don't let the EDl have their freedom of speech by protesting at the EDLs proests.

A.P.

Ah freedom of speech, allowing the EDL to say what the like, and allowing everyone else to call them on it. Then they get upset.

K.L.M.

Lol, that's exactly what my friends says too Alan.

K.L.M.

UAF are worse than EDL, I hate both.

A.P.

So your friends basically say they're fascist, because they oppose the EDL, a fascist group. That's your argument for UAF being fascist?

K.L.M.

Left-wing fascism and left fascism are terms used by a few writers to describe tendencies in left-wing politics that contradict or violate the progressive ideals with which the Left is usually associated.

The most prominent early users of the term left-fascism was Jürgen Habermas, a sociologist and philospher influenced by the neo-Marxist Frankfurt School. He used the term in the 1960s to distance the Frankfurt School from the violence and authoritarianism of left-wing terrorists.[1][2] Habermas, whose work emphasizes the importance of rational discourse, democratic institutions and opposition to violence, has made important contributions to conflict theory and is often associated with the radical left.

Sociologist Irving Louis Horowitz argues that left-wing fascism in the United States consists of a rejection of American democracy and a devotion to socialism that is merely an idealized abstraction, combined with an unwillingness to confront the actual history of communism. He argues that it operates through mystified language; attributes faults "everywhere and always in an imperial conspiracy of wealth, power or status"; and uses anti-Semitism as a pseudo-populist tool.[3]

The term has also been used to describe unusual hybrid political alliances in the late 20th and early 21st centuries.[4] Historian Richard Wolin has used the term left fascism in arguing that some European intellectuals' have been infatuated with post-modernist or anti-enlightenment theories, opening up the opportunity for cult-like, irrational, anti-democratic positions that combine characteristics of the Left with those of fascism.[5]Bernard-Henri

Lévy, a philosopher and journalist, calls this political hybrid neo-progressivism, new barbarism or red fascism. Lévy argues that it is anti-liberal, anti-American, anti-empire, anti-Semitic and pro-Islamofascist.

Source - Wiki

K.L.M.

Alexander, that depends on whether the EDL are fascist or not. I do not like what they do, but I (personally) don't believe they are fascist. Infact they oppose a religion which has fascist ideologies.

A.P.

Nice copy pasta.

K.L.M.

Pasta?

K.L.M.

Fusilli kind? ;)

A.P.

They use violence to try and impose their twisted envisonment of Britain. Personally that's as far as I need to bring out the fascist tag. Whilst I'm not aware of anything specific in Islam that has an ideological fascist bent, I wouldn't be surprised if it did. The bible does, but you wouldn't say 'christianity has fascist ideologies'.

K.L.M.

I would say that in the past, Christianity had fascist ideologies, and possibly still does in certain areas.

It's more prevalent now in Islam.

Most definately, Salafi and Wahhabi Islam, is extremely fascist and totalitarian.

As far as I am aware, the EDL are 'supposed' to be against that, and not Muslims or the colour of their skin.

Although, I'm sure that some

EDLers are just racists, pure and simple. The UAF make matters worse when they counter demo EDL - why don't they do it on another day? Or far away from the EDL? They like to inflame more tensions, that's why.

Alan J B Wyllie ‎

"EDLers are just racists, pure and simple. The UAF make matters worse when they counter demo EDL - why don't they do it on another day? Or far away from the EDL? They like to inflame more tensions, that's why."

You answered it in your first sentence. If I knew a racist organisation was planning a march in my area..well "‘All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing’ is my motto.

A.P.

Pretty much Alan!

K.L.M.

I think they should be ignored. As simple as that. Lol.

If they were ignored, they'd go away, and then if the UAF didn't counter, there'd be no trouble and the police wouldn't need to get involved. Plus tax payers' money would be better spent on other things. I've seen YouTube footage of both groups and they are both terrible.

K.L.M.

And then there's the MDL!!! Looool

A.P.

Unfortunatly there will always be a far-right organisation/s present. Whether it's the EDL or their succesors. And they will always need oposing, they won't just 'go away' unfortunatly. No Passaran!

K.L.M.

Ye reckon? I respectfully disagree, lol, because opposing them does nada anyway, they still return. Opposing them causes nada but violence, and more taxes. :o(

A.P.

I do so reckon, well you're welcome to disagree, but I would say that the EDL seem to cause violence and an increased tax expenditure all on their own, even when they're not being oppposed.

A.P.

It also seems just a little disastefull to hear them spout their vile rhetoric and not oppose it. Although, y'know, ignoring them like you would a petulent child may just do the trick. So who knows?

K.L.M.

Lol ;) well I have 4 kids Alexander....where do you think I got my 'ignore the racist buggers' idea from?! Hehe :p

R.F.‎

77 people died in Norway thanks to this kind of schizophrenic paranoia about a left-wing conspiracy. I really find it quite hard to believe that such ignorant extremism has become so mainstream, so quickly.

K.L.M.

schizophrenic paranoia? Excuse me? Lmao

Reaction that UK Soldiers repatriation is leaving Royal Wooton Bassett 27 July 2011

2011-12-30T04:13:00.000-08:00

Politics UK

The bodies of soldiers killed in Afghanistan will no longer be honoured with a public parade but will be driven through back streets to avoid upset, it has emerged report the Telegraph.

Is this an appropriate course of action by the Ministry for Defence Personnel, Welfare and Veterans?

War dead to be driven down side streets to avoid the public

www.telegraph.co.uk

The bodies of soldiers killed in Afghanistan will no longer be honoured with a public parade but will be driven through back streets to avoid upset, it has emerged.

G.B.

Disgraceful is an understatement IMHO

Z.C.

that is fucking discusting what is with this fucking country at times in canada and the USA they would never do this

A.F.M.

Horrendous. "The liberals of today view the founding fathers of the United States of America as right-wing extremists" fits in nicely with this absurd, outrageous act. Modern liberalism = failure.

J.B.

What do the people of Wotton Bassett think about this?

Mick Constable

Criminal

Dylan Cain

We should be able to pay tributes to those who have paid the ultimate sacrifice for this country and I find this damn right disgraceful. It's as simple as that...

Robin French

I hate this 'our brave boys' mentality, but if people want to glorify the deaths of soldiers that's their choice really. It means something to people even if it's misguided, so let them have their processions.

T.S.

To be honest I would think it should be for the families to decide, not the MoD or anyone else. Like they said the focus is on the families and it should be their decision.

Nothing to do with Wooton Bassett J.B..

N.H.

This is Oxford City Council's decision.

Who controls this council out of interest?

Alan J B Wyllie

I agree with the decision.

J.W.

Shocking

Alan J B Wyllie

“I am not sure taking coffins in hearses past schools, past families, past married quarters is necessarily the thing that everybody would wish to see … the focus must be on the families of the dead service personnel. They are the people who care most. That is where our focus is.”

I agree with the Tory dude tht said this

Dylan Cain

It's not glorify their deaths Robin, it's showing our sorrow and giving us a chance to thank them. I like Marcs idea of the parade of Downing street and Westminster.

N.H.

RAF Lynham was only a temporary base whilst Bryze Norton was repaired.

God bless all at Royal Wooton Bassett mind.

Alan J B Wyllie

I agree with N.H.

God bless all at Royal Wooton Bassett

N.H.

You know, I don't think I ever left the UK from anywhere but Bryze..

M.K.

Robin I think you've missed the point a bit there. If someone gives their life in the service of their country regardless of whether they agreed with the reason or not, they should be recognized by the people they did it for. It's not about glorifying the death of someone, it's about having respect for someone who had a job to do and saw it through even though the consequences were fatal.

Alan J B Wyllie

Same here bud. Crab Air rules.....

B.D.A.

Isaac, do a bit of research and you'll be surprised how they treat the fallen over there. For instance, the government will pay for a gravestone as long as you agree to have a government inscription like "Died in Operation Whatever" if you would rather have your own personal inscription, then you pay for the gravestone out of your own pocket, if you are poor and don't support the war, tuff, take what's on offer or leave it.

Marie-Helene Gaillard

I am not sure that if I was a distraught parent, I would like to share my anguish with the world and his uncle.

C.H.

Absolutely no reason to parade dead British bodies around when many times more are left to rot in the street in foreign countries in illegal wars with no respect whatsoever. Sorry, they're not my heroes, so leave their bodies where they belong: in private with their families.

Mick Constable

Wooton Basset set a benchmark, its going to be difficult to go back to the old way of doing repatriations, which is basically whats being proposed

J.B. So maybe the families need to be consulted as to their wishes and those decisions respected.

Mick Constable

Marie H, there was a documentary not so long ago on Wotton Basset and all the parents interview said it made them proud that their son/daughter was being recognised for the sacrifice they had made, not one doubted it. It also isnt obligatory

Mick Constable

Charli, simply not your choice, your rationale is totally irrational, incorrect and disrespectful

C.H.

RE: Families' decisions... Sure, if they want to pay for the parades themselves they can do whatever they like. Personally I don't want my tax money going on it.

C.H.

Mick, if I'm contributing toward it through my taxes, I think I do get an opinion. If I have to put up with them closing roads, marching through my town, offending my beliefs, I think I do get a say...

Mick Constable

You certainly do, and one easily ignored in this case. Do students pay tax ????

William Macdonald

everyone pays tax

C.H.

Indeed. Somehow even students don't manage to get away without paying VAT on goods, fuel, congestion charges etc these days. And yes, I happen to pay income tax too. I'm just that much of an elitist jerk.

Mick Constable

Indirect yea, which then includes my grandchildren. In my book a taxpayer is one who pays direct tax, or to simplify, Income Tax

William Macdonald

what difference does it make?

tax is tax it all goes into the exchequer

B.D.A.

Instead of consistently falling into the propaganda trap that glorifies war including the recent "if youdon't support us, the government, then support our troops" the vast majority fell for that as it set people against one another, those who now support the war though support our troops against the people asking the question "why are we at war with ?" the Christmas Truce should be documented more so we can all be educated better to who the true benefactors of wars are, certainly not the common people that's for sure.

A.B.

Sorry Mick, tax is tax no matter how the government takes it.

Mick Constable

Its the context

T.S.

Everyone pays Tax Mick, even the unemployed, just because it's taken out beforehand doesn't make anyone less of a tax payer. If you think about it, no one actually physically pays it, unless self employed etc.

William Macdonald

Although there are plenty 'mitigating' theirs

T.S.

If you want to complain about people who don't pay tax pick on George Osborne!

B.D.A. Aris Amazon sent my Lord of the Rings on Blu ray yesterday, cost before VAT £45 VAT was £8 took the price up to £53 everyone ends up paying tax in pond form or other.

T.S.

Bloody hell B.D.A., they saw you coming!

B.D.A.

Sorry in the cinema on my phone, should read in some form or other ;-)

B.D.A.

Look it up on Amazon Tom

William Macdonald

its probably the trilogy

B.D.A.

Thanks William, it is the trilogy :-P

Robin French

Dylan, Matt: It's not just honoring the dead, we don't have parades about just anyone. As I said I think people should be allowed to have these processions, but the reasons people honour soldiers in particular are often jingoistic and morbid.

Cecilia Fisher

i feel in some instances the loved ones who are left behind now feel beholden to go to wooton basset to sccept their loved ones remains in public ,however it must be an absolutly horrendous time for them and having to travel the length of the country to meet them in the full glare of the cameras in some ways compounds there grief

T.S.

Is that the US import one? If you look again on there theres a new extended version coming out on blu ray!

Cecilia Fisher

and more often these days sad to say the edl are trying to hijack it

M.R.

Surely there would be a reasonable alternative......isnt there a National Memorial in the Midlands somewhere?

Cecilia Fisher

scottish soldiers should be repatraited to scotland i believe

Cecilia Fisher

the journey can only add to their grief

B.D.A.

They are British extended versions Tom released on Monday. Amazon and Play.com post early so we get on day of release ;-)

C.S>

From what I have read and seen over the years, the people of Wootton Bassett have respected these parades and shown compassion at the loss of ma ny families. I'm not sure who they mean when they say they wish to cause no offence or upset to anyone.

Cecilia Fisher

christian i agree they have been nothing but respecrfull .but even the villagers are saying enough is enough what started out as a villages honour to the soldiers has been overtaken

B.D.A. I hope when Scotland gains independence Cecilia the Scottish government only uses its military for defence only and not for fighting idiot wars around the globe.

W.H.

Totally appropriate considering they're fighting an unjust war.

Mark Caudery

For once, something I can agree with N.H. on. Regardless of how unjust their actions, these people paid the ultimate price so respect should be paid for that, though I would like to see similar done for enemy and civilian casualties too.

Mick Constable

MArk, are you suggesting we bury the enemy soldiers aswell. The Taliban do that, they leave them for the vultures

N.H.

There is no "parade" at Royal Wooton Bassett you know.

P.B.

The story makes me uncomfortable, are we trying to hide the human cost or protect the families of the fallen? Royal Wooton Basset and it's people have done a great job on behalf of many of the nation in paying a last public honour and acknowledgment of the loss and sacrifice our troops have suffered.

N.H.

Lots of civilians on here talking about things they are not informed on and thus giving silly opinions based on media headlines..

No change there then for many but still. You're all talking crap about something you know nothing about.

Carry the coffin of a mate you were shot at with and then come talk to me about it..

Marie-Helene Gaillard

Ever lost a child N.H.? Far worse than any mate you were shot at with!

Alan J B Wyllie

I agree with N.H..

Different argument Marie-Helene. Civilains are against the role of UK troops in Afghan. The don't understand what the grounf truth is.

How can you disagree with the operation but support the troops. Its an oxymoron.

Public military repatriation is not exclusive wanted by everybody.

Marie-Helene Gaillard

I am talking about the mothers of the soldiers having to grieve in the glare of cameras Alan.

N.H.

Why do people think I disagree with mocing it back to Bryze???

Alan J B Wyllie

I apologise Marie-Helen.

I thought you were making a comparision.

Sorry

I do agree that the families consideration should come FIRST. Not what the public want but for what the the family want.

Alan J B Wyllie

It should be at Brize N.H.. It might sound "crude" but that is where our assets are.

I also didn't realise that the procession went by married quarters etc. Very distasteful in my opinion.

N.H.

Niether did I

Mick Constable

Marie H, they have a choice, most if not all as I understand it, opt for the drive through, well they must do really, otherwise it wouldnt happen would it !!!!!!.

Me-thinks your caring about other people’s feelings is bordering on sticking your nose into other peoples business where its not wanted

Mark Caudery

I think I understand war pretty well. Don't need to be on the front line to know what it's all about.

I think this quote sums it up pretty well...

"War is when the young and stupid are tricked by the old and bitter into killing each other." (GTA IV)

So yeah, people on all sides need to be honoured.

Alan J B Wyllie

But in which way should they be honoured?

Mark are you a padsbrat? I remember somebody posting that they were one..

N.H.

Mark Caudery

"I think I understand war pretty well. Don't need to be on the front line to know what it's all about."

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Mark Caudery

That wasn't me Alan no. War is just a subject that has fascinated me for a long time, generally to understand it from the perspective of both sides.

I've long believed remembrance day should be extended to honour lives lost of all people due to war.

Mark Roberts

Alan....who or what is a "padsbrat"?

Alan J B Wyllie

a child of a member of the Armed Forces.

Mick Constable ‎

‎@ Marie H "Ever lost a child N.H.? Far worse than any mate you were shot at with!”

You are beyond belief presuming you you can ask such personal questions simply as an attempt to prove your utterly worthless point, how dare you.

I wonder how you would feel if N.H. had responded with a YES.

Since when have you been elected as the personal representative of anyone going through pain you may not actually understand yourself, and in which case, you could never comprehend.

Get a life woman and leave others to theirs, they dont need your help no matter how much of a Samaritan you might like to think you are, because you simply are

Mark Caudery

It was a fair point Mick, every life lost is the son or daughter of someone.

Mick Constable

You really are stupid Mark, what are they, test tube creations ??.

That woman’s attempted analogy to simply prove a personal point is unforgiveable, and just shows how much she likes to think she understands other peoples feelings, when in reality she knows little if anything

Mark Caudery

She's just showing Empathy, that isn't difficult for everyone.

Mark Caudery

Re-read... Looks like an opinion with empathy to me. I don't see what you find so offensive about that.

Mick Constable

Enough said, its up to Marie to reply

William Macdonald

Nothing wrong with what Marie said perfectly reasonable response when being told to you dont know about grief.

Sammie Engleby

I find it insulting that our fallen service personnel will no longer get a public parade and be driven through the back streets to avoid upset .These people have died serving their queen and country and have a right to be honoured .Many families of fallen service personnel have found the public parades a source of comfort knowing that the public support our boys and girls .Personally i feel that this could either be a cost cutting exercise or a politically based action .We as a nation are frustrated at our involvement in Afgan and with each parade comes a clear message that we are taking heavy casualities .

Dylan Cain

Alan, I'm the Padbrat. After having a conversation about this with my mum, we both came to the conclusion if the worst did happen to my Dad, we would like the public to be able to pay tributes to him. If people are upset by it, then it's sounds harsh but that's war for you. If people are affected badly by this there should be a helpline or something to give support. It's almost if the Government doesn't want the public to see the human cost of war.

S.E.

Agree with Dylan i am a pads wife and if the worst happened with my husband i would also like the public to pay their respects .We have lost many friends and found comfort with the public parades .The main focus should be on the service personnel who has died and for the family and loved ones he or she leaves behind .

Mick Constable

Lets hope certain people read the posts from you guys, credit to you both

Add caption

PoliticsUK - Thread of the day 29-12-11

2011-12-29T16:27:00.001-08:00

S.S.

Still, let's not try to improve the NHS as the left have convinced us all that there's nothing to worry about.

Number of patients picking up life-threatening infections has doubled in just two years

www.dailymail.co.uk

Poor hygiene on the wards has resulted in those with hospital-acquired infections rising from 22,488 to 42,712 in just two years. Most of those affected are elderly.

W.M.

Oh dear (shakes head)

You know the source of the majority of infections in hospitals!?

The patients!

we carry so many bacteria on our bodies that the skin protects us from that once the skin is damaged and can’t protect us anymore and our immunity is compromised they run rife!

S.S.

Oh yes, bloody patients, if they weren't so bloody sick all the time.

W.M.

So unless you’re suggesting that everyone goes through a full body shower with disinfectant to get rid of as many bacteria as they can as they enter a hospital, this will continue to happen.

S.S.

Yeah, let's not try and improve cleaning standards or anything. That would just be ludicrous.

W.M.

Why do you think they take swabs of patients on entering hospitals for surgeries!?

They swab your nostrils and groin to check for the bacteria that cause problems!

W.M.

Cleaning a floor will do nothing if the patients have bacteria infected feet and keep traipsing all over them with the bacteria!?

It’s not rocket science S.S...

W.M.

Why do you think they have those bottles of alcohol cleanser all over the bloody place now!?

W.M.

Bacteria passes from person to person unless controlled

S.S.

Bloody inconsiderate sick patients. How dare they be so ill and expect to be made better by going into a hospital. The bastards.

W.M.

Well that’s essentially the source of your problem so that’s who your attacking the patients!

Nothing to do with cleanliness levels!

W.M.

But of course the truth and the Daily Mail have never been acquainted!

S.S.

So people are sicker and more contagious than they were two years ago?

Wait....

I know what's happened...

It's those bloody Tories, of course. Nothing to do with poor cleaning standards or the inadequacies of the NHS, it's those Tories.

W.M.

So what you’re claiming is that cleaning standards have dropped so badly in 2 years under the Tories!?

K.M.J.

This is a classical Dailey Mail spin on carefully chosen biased information. The rise in infection directly correlates to the fact that elderly and high risk patients are being given the opportunity to undergo surgery that at one time they would have been told was too risky. 20-30yrs ago people over seventy would not have been operated on, due to the fact that as you get older your immune system becomes weaker.

But let’s just have another day of putting down one of the best health services in the world, that the people in this country take for granted and constantly complain about.

W.M.

Couldn’t have said it better myself K.M.J..

All those on here who are alive thanks to the NHS who are so quick to disparage it should hang their heads in shame!

S.S.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1560849/UK-cancer-survival-rate-lowest-in-Europe.html

Because I pay tax for mediocre results. Envy of the world eh?

K.M.J.

Yes equipment shortages in the NHS is a major problem, and I do think this will improve dramatically with opening up to private patients and more provision of early detection services being run by private companies.

You also have to also look at the fact that survival of cancer after five years is down to early diagnosis and lifestyle, this will not improve until people start to take screening seriously and also be prepared to change the way they live. How many people bother to go and get themselves checked out every year, we have a cultural problem in the UK in getting people to go to the doctors unless they feel ill.

W.M.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10569097

W.M.

We invest less than the rest of Europe and America in our health service!

W.M.

and yes S.S. when you don’t have to pay at the door for the service, of course it’s going to be the envy of the world try asking an average American who have to pay for things like transport to hospital by ambulance!

W.M.

Oh and the last time the WHO rated health services we were ahead of

Switzerland

Belgium

Colombia

Sweden

Cyprus

Germany

Saudi Arabia

United Arab Emirates

Israel

Morocco

Canada

Finland

Australia

Chile

Denmark

Dominica

Costa Rica

United States of America

M.R.

W.M.....whilst I agree with your general point.....surely it is the responsibility of the NHS to deal with the "conditions" it faces....you really cannot blame the patients for being ill!

C.S.

Not sure that is W.M.s point really Mark. He is saying it's about dealing with ill people inside the budgets and trying to be as effective as possible I think

W.M.

Not blaming the people for being ill and certainly not blaming them for carrying bacteria like we all do, but I think there needs to be some honesty.

By far and away the vast majority of infections are carried into hospitals on the skin of patients, there’s no getting round that unless as I suggested you disinfected everyone as they entered both patients visitors and staff, but that doesn’t happen so of course you’re going to have infections.

Trying to blame that simply on a lack of cleanliness is unfair and doesn’t give the whole picture is what I'm pointing out to S.S..

W.M.

Of course it’s what grabs headlines and makes people fearful though the unfortunate thing is that tends to impact on the elderly who will be more reluctant to come forward for treatment involving stays in hospital, which is something these papers and headline writers never consider, they probably cost the lives of some!

M.H.G.

Maybe private rooms with private bathrooms are the answer rather than wards and shared bathroom facilities.

M.R.

W.M.....then shouldn't the old be entitled to feel "safe" in hospital? The NHS is a fine, and much needed organisation......but it could learn a lot about "customer care"........it can learn an awful lot about effective procurement and it can learn a lot about spending public money properly.....then, and only then, can it go back to government and ask for more.......the vast majority of people who are treated by the NHS are far better for the experience......but it is possible to kill the NHS with kindness.......as you well know, I am not a Daily Mail reader....(lol).....but I do have extensive experience of work in the NHS......and it is not a perfect organisation......

W.M.

I think anyone would be mad to try and claim its perfect, I'm certainly not doing that, but you have to remember that this is an organisation that provides a service every hour of everyday of every week of the year, to a million people a week up and down the country.

W.M.

And yes Mark anyone who’s vulnerable should be safe in hospital.

M.H.G.

Mark, you will never find "perfection" in a massive organization like the NHS.

K.M.J.

Mark .. I agree with you completely about the organisation and waste at the upper levels of management in the NHS. That is in my opinion something that stems from having politicians running it who are more interested in hiding the failings that do exist, instead of dealing with them and improving the service.

I hate the idea of privatising our healthcare in the UK and would fight it all the way, that does not mean I disagree with the idea of running it for maximum income and efficiency the way any national company would be run.

M.R.

M.H.G.......you are right.....one of the big issues...both strength, and a weakness, in the NHS is its size.........but I would far rather see a properly integrated universal service than one that is split into little pieces.....

M.R.

K.M.J......you have a fair point about politicians.....I can always remember Alan Milburn, when he was Minister of Health, being absolutely paranoid about criticism......but if national politicians, who are, at least to a degree, accountable do not set the broad standards and direction who would you suggest did?

W.M.

K.M.J. when you say waste at upper levels of management what do you mean?

You do realise that management levels in the NHS are about 4% of the staff in comparison to the national average of 16% managers to staff ratio.

They are expected to function with 1/4 of the managers that all other businesses do!

K.M.J.

‎@ M.R... Targets and standards I think should come from our government, you will get no argument from me on that point. I had the misfortune of having to deal with our PCT heads, the PR department and legal department where constantly giving me the “you can’t do that its more than our jobs worth” they are the political side of the NHS that are constantly holding back progress on customer service and efficiency. Politicians exist on many levels of the civil service and they constantly work in the best interest of themselves and their political career, not the people or government that pay their very large salaries.

K.M.J.‎

@ W.M... I don’t think that the number of managers is the problem but that their expertise is an issue with managing resources and the way in which they deal with the contractors.

I was also thinking about their ignorance towards staff members at all levels who can offer a wealth of knowledge on what systems are working and what are not and yet are frequently ignored.

M.R.

K.M.J....too bloody true!......There is something fundamentally wrong with a system that is built on conformity and fear......yet, apart from Government "austerity" cuts they would have to have committed mass murder to get sacked!

W.M.

I do K.M.J. if you were asked to work with only a quarter of the staff necessary you don’t think it would have an impact on the service you provide?

M.R.

If I was asked to do that....and it was unsafe to do it....I would blow the whistle....wouldn't you?

W.M.

Well that’s what the management of the NHS is expected to do, and who would they complain to?

their employers are the ones that allow such staffing levels because their roles are a political football, to be kicked about at a whim, to be a banner headline when people want to attack 'waste' in the NHS.

M.R.

W.M.....IF anyone is working in an unsafe environment they have a duty to report it......IF managers are asking staff to work in an unsafe way they should be reported.....there are mechanisms in place......use them!

A.K.

Andrew Ansleys NHS reforms bill will not be passed until March 2012 so there is still time to campaign against this bill which will undoubtedly lead to privatisation/a two/three tier system...This is an undemocratic bill which was not mentioned in either the Tory/Lib-Dem manifesto...The NHS belongs to the people and I wonder what part of NO Mr Cameron and co., do not understand as no one only the... gov. and the private sector business men who just happen to be Tory donors...want these changes to the MHS...

GPs don’t want it...Hospital doctors and nurses don’t want it...The BMA. RCGP, RCN are ALL opposing the bill and most of the British public are in opposition to the bill...Yet the government despite having a" listening committee "are not listening...

Anueurin Beven said that the NHS "will last as long as there as folk with faith to fight for it"

The cuts in the NHS are starting to be felt but in 2012/13 these cuts will come home to roost as they result in shortage of doctors and nurses....We are already facing a chronic shortage of GPs many of whom are leaving the service because they do not agree with the Bill and because it was not what they signed up for...and to protect their pension rights.

We have seen what privatisation has done to our dental services. In many cases it is difficult to get a local dentist. If this threatened shortage of GPs is allowed to go unchecked we will be facing problems of accessing a local GP...This Tory Bill is destroying and dismantling OUR health service to line their pockets many MP and members of the House of Lords are involved financially in private health care companies... and lining the pockets of their big businessmen party donors....

The NHS is already struggling to deliver the 20billion pounds of cuts demanded by the government. These cuts are designed to make the NHS inefficient and not working so that they will have an excuse to sell it off at a knock - down price...Privatisation will mean that profits will come before care...

This government has told us that privatisation leads to competition better services and lower costs....We just have to look at the utilities Margaret Thatcher sold off to know the the opposite is the reality..

W.M.

I think you confused what I said.

Management levels are staggeringly poor, 1/4 of what the rest of the countries companies’ average.

M.R.

W.M....depends what you call a manager........

A.K.

http://www.38degrees.org.uk/page/s/Protect_our_NHS_Petition.....

M.R.

Sadly, there is a lot of front-line staff in the NHS who run a mile from taking any responsibility........

K.M.J.

W.M. I was speaking more of top management and not the ones who are on the front line trying to do a good job with under-funded and under-staffed hospitals. Most of them never step foot inside the hospital they supposedly manage and never take responsibility for something wrong, they always find some lower down to take the blame.

S.B.

What a great deal of people are forgetting that the CLEANING of the wards, corridors, theatres as well as everything else is definitely not cleaned like the old days. In the old days when you walked into the hospitals you were hit with the smell of cleanliness of bleach with is missing these days. If those in charge of cleaning were to go back to using bleach to clean the wards and everywhere else then maybe the hospitals will eradicate most of the infections that one might pickup. Another words the hospitals now a days are dirtier than the old days.

J.W.

I agree they say bleach is bad to be used in public domains yet our very drinking water has it in to destroy bacteria.

J.W.

Antibiotics needs to be ditched as it compromises the immune system. Instead of antibiotics people should be eating or drinking soups that have antibiotic type foods in that keep control of bad bacteria. Garlic, onions, lemon juice, herbs any foods that can destroy bad gut bacteria and build the immune system.

S.S. ‎

"Mark, you will never find "perfection" in a massive organization like the NHS."

Precisely why it needs breaking up and transforming altogether.

NightStop - The Homeless Charity 25th August 2011

2011-12-29T15:00:00.000-08:00

Politics UK

‎I.J.

just been listening on Radio 5 to the fantastic work done by the charity Nightstop in helping homeless people across the country. What an inspirational group of people!

M.C.

That's great! Hope they have the resources to deal with the massive levels of homelessness in the UK.

Alan J B Wyllie

‎>http://www.facebook.com/nightstop.teesside<

>http://www.facebook.com/pages/High-Peak-Nightstop/70429697789<

<http://www.facebook.com/pages/NightstopStockport/118067474931099<

Richard Frazer

http://www.birminghamchurches.org.uk/news/network-nightstop-birmingham/

Looking for volunteers to start up effectively in Birmingham.

Also have St Basils in Birmingham who are highly effective.

Network Nightstop Birmingham « Birmingham Churches Together

www.birminghamchurches.org.uk

Birmingham Churches Together (BCT) enables churches and congregations to share and work together in all areas of Christian life.

J.R.

Anyone who gives up their time to help the homeless is OK in my book. Best wishes to them all..

J.E.

Democratic Reform Party; some of our memebers are joing an inicitive called "The Big Sleepout" in December - where people will be sleeping in the streets alongside the homeless to highlight the issues of homelessness. See here for more details if you wish to take part - http://www.democraticreform.org.uk/2011/05/30/big-sleep-out/

M.C.

Though addressing the root causes of homelessness would be by far the best thing to do.

M.C.

http://youtu.be/hpAMbpQ8J7g

RSA Animate - First as Tragedy, Then as Farce

www.youtube.com

In this short RSA Animate, renowned philosopher Slavoj Zizek investigates the surprising ethical implications of charitable giving.

Richard Frazer

Attack homelessness from all directions. Just getting people aware of it is a feat in itself!

Kathy Johnson

Homelessness in the UK is a much bigger problem than our government let on. In Feb 2009 there was 1.8 million families on the social housing waiting lists over 4.5 million people. I have not got the figures for now but I don’t think it will have gone down. that it has gone down, and the governments system for counting rough sleepers depends on an estimate and is vastly underestimated.

A.B.

Very left-wing! What I'd love to see instead of hand outs is a look at why people are homeless! Give a man a can of soup he will be full for an hour! Target the causes of poverty and he might live a happy positive life!

Kathy Johnson

If we give people an affordable home they may also live happy lives. Not being able to afford a house of 100,000 + may not be due to poverty. Two people on minimum wage can not get a mortgage that high. although I think the minimum wage is too low, but thats another topic.

J.R.

The govt's austerity (poverty) measures are only goung to make the issue of homelessness worse. I know of people who have been living in a hostel for over 2 years waiting for a social housing let to become available. I was lucky as I was offered a place after just 2 years, having applied for 42 different properties. I was not homeless but may well have been if I had had to wait much longer, as my housing benefit did not cover my rent and I was getting into debt. I suffered a heart attack and was offered a place a month later.

D.L.

Having participated in counting homelessness and working in the sector for a while it seems to me the solution lays in changing the attitude of our homes being a commodity not legislation.

I.J.we need to come at this from 2 angles. Firstly dealing with the immidiate problems of the current homeless and secondly trying to take measures to tackle the underlying reasons behind homelessness

D.L.

Hi Ian i think we also need to accept that for some (but not all by any means!) this is a lifestyle choice. For some it's about the legislation around social housing, for others the economic situation of the country but my experience( limited as it was/is) for most it's about being victim to someone else's greed. The largest % of street homeless people i have worked with are casualties of family breakdowns. Some divorcees some young people left with little choice but to run and hide.Politics UK ‎(Ian Jerram) Dawn that's what particularly impressed me about the Nightstop charity. They actually take people into their homes. I don't think homelessness is all about greed it's more about the availability of homes

D.L.

Nightstop do some AMAZING work indeed. The greed i am talking about is the greed that makes a home a commodity as i referred to earlier. Having worked as a homeless officer there are homes available but the greed of others makes them unobtainable for most.

Is there any popular support for Communism in modern Britain? May 31st 2011

2011-12-29T11:48:00.000-08:00

Politics UK

Is there any popular support for Communism in modern Britain?

The Revolutionary Communist Party of Britain (Marxist-Leninist) Homepage

www.rcpbml.org.uk

Home page of the Revolutionary Communist Party of Britain (Marxist-Leninist) featuring Daily Workers' Internet Edition that presents contemporary Marxist-Leninist thought on Britain and the world and contains archives of WDIE and internet editions of Workers' Weekly newspaper of RCPBML and other doc

A.H.

There bloody should be!

J.O.

J.C.B.

Why do communists drink herbal tea?

Because all proper tea is theft XD ...

I'll get me coat!

R.F.

Sadly I smiled at that

H.M.

Right here

A.J.B.W.

Yes. Communism has never failed.

Whereas Capitalism is a utopia for all.

S.F.

I think both communism and capitalism have failed...

A.H.

‎'Communism' never failed, 'Stalinism' failed. Communism is always adapted differently; ‘Maoism’ is still going pretty strong....

S.F.

You forgot Trotskyism, very popular in France! lol

A.P.

Communisms a joke: just a hypocritical version of fascism in practise.

R.F.

'Communism' is to Stalinism as 'Capitalism' is to Objectivism. Stop regurgitating glib platitudes and get your noses in a book.

A.P.

Wasn't that a glib platitude, Robin? Stalinism was borne of communism, whereas objectivity has nothing to do with capitalism.

R.F.

It was, wasn't it?

Rand developed objectivism after soviets collectivised her family's business. It's very much a capitalist ideology, even if it's more of a philosophical than an economic theory.

A.P.

Sorry, I was only teasing. :-) I was also guilty of misreading objectivism as objectivity. My bad.

The truth about cannabis is CLEAR...or is it? 30st Sept 2011

2011-12-28T12:33:00.000-08:00

Peter Reynolds

Leader of Clear http://clear-uk.org/

The truth about cannabis is CLEAR.

Popular intoxicants – how do alcohol and cannabis compare?

http://profdavidnutt.wordpress.com/2011/09/29/popular-intoxicants-%E2%80%93-how-do-alcohol-and-cannabis-compare/

D.L.

interesting view point i guess............there is little mention of the different strengths of cannabis which in my limited experience plays its part in mental health issues. I have spent time in Holland and yeah less criminal activity but not less 'out of it people' on the streets. (can't give stats just personal perception).

J.R.

I totally agree with Prof Nutt on cannabis use and would also stress that criminalizing the possession and use of the drug causes harm in itself. I'm quite sure the police would rather not waste resources enforcing the prohibition of cannabis, and likewise with the courts and prison services. Not only would de-criminalizing cannabis have huge cost savings, it would also remove the risk to users of being labelled 'criminal', which can go on to affect their future lives in a far more damaging way, i.e. With gaining employment, etc., than using the drug itself.

Of course, some people will say that if you use an illegal drug then you deserve to be punished but that, IMO, is a very closed view as any punishment should not exceed the harm caused by the individual. Naturally, offences like driving under the influence of drink or drugs would still apply, as it does currently as part of road safety. As the law stands people taking prescription drugs are liable to prosecution if they were considered unfit to drive. The same rule would apply to cannabis users who drive..

S.O.

We can't have cannabis because...well....it might lead to harder drugs. We can't have cannabis because....well....it might lead to schizophrenia.

We can have cigarettes because...well, who doesn't want cancer? Who doesn't want emphysema? Who doesn't want heart disease? Etc.

We can have alcohol because...well, who doesn't want to be violently assaulted? Who doesn't want liver disease? Etc etc.

Let's just be honest, there's a schizophrenia inherent right there in our drug laws.

D.L.

I certainly don't profess to be an expert but when I worked in drugs services most of those entangled in the CJS as a result of their drug use it generally it was opiates etc not cannabis

R.B.

In my Opinion that Cannabis May Lead to harder drugs is Flawed on the basis that before many people try cannabis they have more than likely and in about 99.999% of the Time tried alcohol or tobacco first,

F.G.

Go back a few days to my post on hemp and that’s we we are not allowed it, it has nothing to do with medical issues its cos its a danger to the OIL COMPANIES

A.W.

All very well Robert. But there's no ideological pathway from alcohol to cannabis.

C.F.

pass the duchy on the left hand side lol

J.R.

Sorry A.W. but what do you mean by "there's no ideological pathway from alcohol to cannabis."? Surely if people are brainwashed into thinking that one is acceptable and the other is not, then ideology is pre-subscribed...

S.O.

Is there an "ideological pathway" (inappropriate phrase) from cannabis to heroin then? Blimey....

J.R.

I think that be 'pre-prescribed' rather than 'pre-subscribed'...

P.R.

There's an "ideological pathway" among illegal drug dealers and that is a direct harm of prohibition. Ashley's either a Daily Mail scientist or a lobbyist for Big Pharma or the alcohol industry

B.G.

Alcohol is the gateway drug. Alcohol reduces inhibitions so when someone is drunk they're more likely to try cannabis, cocaine or Ecstasy than if they're sober.

J.R.

Peter. I think the stars'n'stripes profile pic tells all.. :)

A.W.

I would suggest the law prohibiting people buying drugs does more good than harm.

P.R.

Ashley, that's a reasonable argument and I can understand how someone who's taken no time to look at the evidence would put it forward. Educate yourself though and you will discover that precisely the opposite is true.

A.W.

Peter - What makes you think I have not taken time to try to understand the arguments for and against prohibiting drugs? Is it because I have drawn a different conclusion?

S.O.

It's a naive view, and a surprising one coming from the University student I suspect he is....

There's an entire series of The Wire that I think makes a strong statement about the futility of the war on drugs.

A.W.

War on drugs you say? Haven't the prohibitive drug laws been gradually relaxed to a state of non-existence in this country for the last 30 years?

S.O.

Plainly not Ashley. Yes, you still might get no more than a ticking off if caught with a small quantity of cannabis, but then again you may not.

A.W.

Statistically you are unlikely (if caught) to get convicted. But if convicted, it'll probably be no more than a ticking off anyway.

P.R.‎

384 people went directly to jail for simple possession of cannabis in 2010.

Every week, people who suffer from dreadful illnesses and disabilities, whose doctors have prescribed them Sativex but whose health authorities have refused to pay for it, are prosecuted for "production" of cannabis and many are sent to jail in their wheelchairs while paedophiles and violent thugs go free.

J.B.

D.L.---think you will find those off it in the street are tourists

S.O.

Ashley, would you be supportive of the prohibition of alcohol too?

A.J.B.W.

Drugs are for Mugs....

Sorry did I say Mug, I meant bong.

A.W.

Peter - In terms of percentage, what was the conviction to prison sentence ratio?

Scott - I don't think prohibiting alcohol is the same as prohibiting a considerably more dangerous drug like cannabis. I would therefore not support the prohibition of alcohol.

P.R.‎

"a considerably more dangerous drug like cannabis"!!!

A.W. has spoken! Now bugger off all you scientists, doctors, statisticians, researchers. A.W. knows best.

A.J.B.W.

I would ban alcohol tomorrow. One of the worst drugs and its legal.

Violence, health problem, social problems, families breaking up..Yeah Id ban alcohol.

AFAIK, and I have done a wee bit of online research is that cannabis is not a dangerous drug. Definitely less dangerous than nicotine or alcohol.

P.R.

Thank God, I give all British political parties credit for having far more intelligence and interest in evidence-based policy than A.W. portrays.

If he is an American then he is already out of step with his own nation.

Or perhaps he's just a pretty flag waver?

B.G.

When the U.S. banned alcohol it was a total disaster. However marijuana is not more dangerous than alcohol. When people overdose on alcohol they die and you can't get more dangerous than that. They don't theoretically die-they actually die. I know a midwife who worked for several years in Accident Emergency. She said that most of the overdoses she saw were alcohol or heroin. She didn't see any marijuana overdoses in Accident&Emergency because when someone overdoses on marijuana they fall asleep on the sofa. Alcohol is considerably more dangerous than cannabis and that's the truth. A.W.has constructed his arguments on a lie so his arguments are a house of cards.

C.F.

noone has ever died directly through cannabis .and cannabis psychosis is far from proven

C.F.

Amsterdam has the right attitude, I’ve been many times and I’ve yet to see the carnage at chucking out time that I have seen in many cities in the UK, cannabis is a social [drug] alcohol is completely anti social

A.W.

The evidence suggests alcohol is flushed out of the system after 24 hours if consumed responsibly. Cannabis on the other hand remains in your system for some time. So those who enjoy a glass of wine on a Friday or Saturday will be okay to drive into work come Monday morning.

Peter - As you tried to incorporate stats to prove a point, would you care to answer the question I previously asked?

C.F.

and your point is .how many people get drunk on a Sunday night and kill in their cars next morning ,and how many who have a few joints kill by car the day after ,before you shout about cannabis and advocate alcohol take time to check the stats

P.R.

Heroin and cocaine are also "flushed out of the system" quickly. That is why you now have many more heroin addicts in prisons where there is drug testing. If they smoke a harmless joint they can be busted a month after. If they smoke some smack it doesn't show after 24 hours. This is the logic you follow is it?

In Australia they can now roadside test for cannabis "active metabolites" which gives an accurate measure of intoxication as opposed to your ideas which are based on prejudice, discrimination and ignorance.

And your question? You mean: "In terms of percentage, what was the conviction to prison sentence ratio?"?

I don't know the answer but how would it be meaningful in any way? How could it advance the debate?

J.P.

The body flushes out those substances it deems nasty or harmful hence why alcohol out ya system also why u get a hangover

P.R.

Ashley, you're struggling and that's because you're wrong.

It's not your fault. You are the victim of misinformation and propaganda, funded by alcohol and Big Pharma and sanctioned by bought and paid for politicians.

J.P.

A.W. your quick enuff to cite your own proofs have u even looked into some of the debates surrounding weed an all the evidence???

A.W.

C.F.- one substance is legal and the one isn't. You cannot compare like for like, but if common sense was applied, if both were legal, cannabis would be more likely to do considerably more damage.

Peter - Again, it's not a like for like comparison. The health implications from a drug like heroin are going to be far more damaging than alcohol.

And as far as the question on stats goes, it would be a good idea to establish how many people were actually convicted for the use of cannabis before assuming jailing one person a day for an entire year was a considerable number.

A.W.

Peter - one minute you are praising the political elite for their common sense and so-called 'evidence based' approach. The next they are sanctioning anti-drug propaganda.

S.O.

Naive, preposterous twaddle Ashley. There is no sense debating with someone promoting nonsense that "cannabis would be more likely to do considerably more damage" (than alcohol). On what basis? Have you no notion of the absurd levels of crime that alcohol consumption is responsible for? Have you any idea of the scale of cannabis use in this country? It is enormous and crosses the social strata.

No amount of arrogant, pithy verbiage can save the fact that you clearly haven't the foggiest on the subject matter to claim a worthwhile opinion.

P.R.

Ashley, you are so, so, so wrong. Alcohol kills gradually. If you are on a maintenance dose of heroin, it has no deleterious mental or physical effects. There is nothing damaging about heroin in itself unless you overdose or become addicted. Alcohol causes actual physical damage and you become addicted.

L.M.

in Ireland alcohol causes 84% of all accident and emergencies at weekends.. that’s says it all... any cannabis cases are in conjunction with other drugs to... and statistically in cali we are 66% less likely to get cancers if we use cannabis as well as binge drink...

P.R.‎

"one substance is legal and the one isn't. You cannot compare like for like"

Are you for real? What, so because the law says something that amounts to scientific evidence?

You are an excellent example of the sort of ignorance that pervades this issue.

P.R.

You're from a different planet aren't you Ashley? Come on, own# up!

A.W.

I do not doubt some of what you say is true Scott. But it has been proven past and present that zero tolerance works.

And yes, in scientific circles, it is widely accepted that alcohol is considerably less dangerous than cannabis.

L.M.

More people were jailed for alcohol related offences than for using or having cannabis. and just because someone isnt jailed for cannabis doesnt mean their lives arent ruined because of a criminal record!

P.R.

‎"And yes, in scientific circles, it is widely accepted that alcohol is considerably less dangerous than cannabis." A.W.Walsh, 28-09-11

May his words live for evermore so that he will always be reminded

Good night all.

L.M.

and you most certainly CAN compare like for like! i believe that if all drugs were decriminalised like in portugal.. alcohol causes MOST harms, most crimes and effexcts society the MOST!!! look it up!

A.W.

Peter - Do keep up. It is important to highlight how we cannot compare the availability of a legal substance to an illegal one. Not to use a circular argument, but to highlight an important point that because a substance is illegal, lots of people have been discouraged from buying it.

And although I don't come from a different planet, I come from a city called Derby. Some say that's one and the same thing :)

P.R.

I'm going off to dreamland amongst Ashley's "scientific circles". It's a wild, fantasmagorical magic carpet ride!

S.O.

No it isn't Ashley. It isn't a health drug by any means - it's not good for you. But alcohol is socially the more devastating drug by far. Inarguably so. How you can believe otherwise is plain ridiculous - you must wander around with your eyes shut? All of the local addicts in my vicinity have heroin/crack and/or alcohol issues. If anything it seems to be the latter that lends people towards the former.

It hasn't been "proven past and present that zero tolerance works" (towards cannabis? or just generally?). What absolute rubbish.

Oh and take down the American flag.

S.O.

Ashley, cannabis is illegal and the number of users in the UK is in the millions. Prohibition is a waste of time.

A.W.

How then do you explain a phenomena like Sweden?

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/guest_contributors/article6900001.ece

S.O.

Did you read it? Clearly if so, you didn't understand it.

"There is little evidence that altering the legal classification of cannabis affects consumption. When the law was liberalised in 2004 cannabis consumption was falling in most of Western Europe, and the UK has followed the general trend.

Two Western European countries with markedly different policies have less of a problem than the UK. The Swedes adopt a prohibitionist line and only about 8 per cent of adolescents have smoked cannabis. The Dutch have a very liberal policy and 28 per cent of adolescents use cannabis. Both have lower consumption than the UK where 38 per cent of 16-year-olds have used it. Teenagers starting to use cannabis do not debate its exact classification; many do not even think it is a drug and few have any knowledge of its hazards. What does appear to have an effect is knowledge about the risks of heavy consumption."

There are risks too with "heavy consumption" of alcohol or indeed any other harmful drug. Why am I bothering though? You're not interested in the reality that cannabis use is common and widespread. You're not interested that whilst proven harmful drugs such as alcohol and tobacco are legal, it really makes no sense to criminalise users of cannabis. You're not even interested in admitting that your claim that alcohol is a less harmful drug is plainfully false.

A.W.

Firstly tobacco has not even been mentioned in this debate, so don't tell me where I stand on this issue.

Secondly, although I have clearly stated I would not take adhere to total prohibition on alcohol, I will concede that perhaps we should look at tightening thr regulation of selling alcohol.

Finally, the piece included with the link does not give the most comprehensive list of the dangers of cannabis.

But it does make very clear your position on zero tolerance is actually false.

B.G.

The NHS recently recorded a 50% rise in alcohol related deaths since 1991 so anyone who claims that cannabis is more dangerous than alcohol is talking total nonsense.As for the suggestion that alcohol is somehow safer than cannabis because it gets flushed out of the system the NHS has also recently recorded a 50% rise in people under 30 needing hospital treatment for serious liver damage since 1991 so again that claim is total nonsense.Alcohol might not stay in the body for as long as cannabis but it does more damage while it's there.I don't know if A.W.has ever heard of a footballer called George Best-he was one of the finest players ever to pull the shirt on for Manchester United.However if Manchester United win the title again this season George won't be around to see it because George had a drink problem and that drink problem killed him.At one stage George was in line for a liver transplant because of the damage alcohol had done to his liver but the Doctors concluded that the alcohol he'd consumed had done so much damage to his other internal organs there wasn't any point.Silly Doctors they should have listened to A.W.who apparently thinks that alcohol is much safer than cannabis.If A.W.had been George Best's Doctor then George would have been fixed up a treat because A.W.would have magicked away all the massive and irreversible damage to George's internal organs with a few strokes on the keyboard of his computer which apparently doesn't have a 'google' function.

A.W.

It's actually a Blackberry. And there's a reason why it is easier to build a case for tighter regulation of the sale of alcohol. I'd refer you to the link I provided earlier for details regarding how difficult it is to get comparable data on cannabis.

And whilst we can all reflect on the sad loss of Best, not so many of us will be able to hear the story of others who waste their lives in an equally tragic manner thanks to cannabis.

H.A.

I would say that neither drug is particularly good for you but its our choice how we live our lives so long as we hurt no one else's.

H.A.

You might like to have a look at this A.W.:) http://www.saferchoice.org/content/view/24/53/

Alcohol vs. Marijuana

www.saferchoice.org

A.W.

Thanks Hex. But I'm not sure how scientifically rigorous the assertions are on a pro-cannabis lobbyist website.

For those who say cannabis is equally or even less alcohol. Children as young as five are entitled to intake alcohol. Fourteen year olds can enjoy an alcoholic drink with a meal. At what age do you propose we introduce cannabis to children if it is not as harmful as alcohol?

J.P.

hahaha so u trust scientific asserrtions about alcohol but comsider those assertions made by similar scientists about weed untrue an flakey ...dude get a grip an listen to yourself

A.P.

You do realise that the moral stance the government has taken on alcohol and cannabis is not the basis for a stance in an argument. 'The government says it's bad, so it must be bad, I'm right if I say it's bad and that's all the evidence I need.'

J.P.

does seem to b like that doesnt it im sure the government said the world was flat at one time doesnt mean sailors didnt laugh in there faces or wen evidence was produced they changed there minds accordingly !! why cant u all just look at wat in front of your eyes everyone different an should b there choice as to wat to ingest based on there own chemical make up or experiences

A.P.

I'm just waiting to say why the government has banned it; 'It makes you think maaaan! Broadens your reality maaan! They can't handle it maaan!'

J.P.

prob banned it cause none of the politicains r board of directors in weed companys b totally different if they were

A.P.

I mean not to say it's a absolutely wonderfull thing, it's main draw back, as South Park so eloquently put it is 'that it makes being lazy ok'.

D.L.

May i just point out that people who drink to the point of addiction can die if they just stop. People who use heroin to the point of addiction and just stop will be pretty ill but likely to be ok. People who use cannabis to the point of 'addiction' ( never seen any prove this is possible) will be fine by just stopping. Just saying................

A.P.

You can very realisticaly get addicted to cannabis, only it would be a psychological addiction, whilst you wouldn't have the horrendous and possibly fatal effects of heavy alcohol or heroin withdrawl, you wouldn't be 'fine'. A lot better of than other adicts mind.

D.L.

Sorry Alexander my 'bad' i was thinking purely physically. Yes there is evidence to suggest the psychological affects are difficult. In the NHS we see the adverse affects of alcohol and heroin a whole lot more than cannabis. (I work in the mental health sector) I would never promote changing the way you feel by using street drugs or alcohol, but i would ALWAYS suggest that recovery from cannabis appears on the surface to be a whole lot more reachable.

A.P.

Oh totally, I'd say it was the kind of addiction that in the right circumstances could be defeated with will power alone. With the only downsides being a few cranky days! I also find it interesting that you see the effects of heroin and alcohol. One of my associates said that she saw the effects of cannabis more, she too worked in the mental health area. Although she was in a rather specified unit, which could make all the difference as to the experience.

D.L.

I used to work specifically in drugs and alcohol services and still say alcohol and heroin issues presented more there. However i did some research for my degree on presentations (who) to drug services and there was a % of long term cannabis users presenting interestingly often they drank too. (sorry can't give you access to the research am rubbish at keeping things lol). The other interesting aspect was gender related, as in 80% of people using the services (only looked at UK) were male. Of that 80% a high % (again sorry can't be specific as i am rubbish) were presenting as a result of other family members giving them ultimatums to stop or go. My sense is that recreational use of most street drugs and alcohol brings little 'damage' to anyone, the problems arise when people just want to escape their own reality.

A.W.

So at what age to we introduce the wonders of cannabis to children? Anyone?

D.L.

Sorry A.W.who suggested introducing ANY intoxicants to children? I missed the post could you point me towards it please?

S.O.

I'm rather incredulous that A.W.chose to claim victory (a sure sign of immaturity) over his use of a decidedly debatable comment article from The Times. Not least since, having been roundly derided for his naive opening gambit on a substance he's clearly never used and quite obviously has no idea of just how widespread it is across the social spectrum, he chose to misdirect the argument on to zero tolerance approach to prohibition (which had not previously been under discussion). The success of which isn't proven by unsubstantiated statistics in said article, statistics that are gleaned from a country where there is a zero tolerance to prohibition. As any sociologist will tell you, this is going to have a bearing on what people are willing to admit. Amusingly the article concedes the big issue with cannabis is heavy usage. More amusing is the fact that this is true of any drug.

More amusingly still, one of the most infamous prohibition acts of the 20th century - of alcohol in the USA - is widely acknowledged to have been a massive flop, largly ignored and responsible for a massive increase in organised crime. Presumably, to use this argument in regard to cannabis, one must convice themselves that you cannot compare two commonly used recreational drugs.

Still failing to acknowledge the far greater social damage alcohol causes...No, instead Ashley, you talk of using alcohol responsibly. Well, many people do not use it responsibly. It also ignores the fact that most users of cannabis do so in moderation. These are the realities that no amount of articles on the subject change.

Take ANY drug - alcohol, cannabis etc - then the detriment to health will become apparent. To suppose that alcohol has a lesser effect is plainly ridiculous. It is quite clear that your position is determined by legality and not by knowledge or experience. An intelligent man would know better than to spurt forth on a subject he's evidentially no idea about. But, I guess, that's the folly of youth and general life inexperience. We all thought we knew-it-all once...

Also Ashley, what are you wittering on about re: telling you how you stand on tobacco? This only informs me that you don't understand what you read. The comment I made was "You're not interested that whilst proven harmful drugs such as alcohol and tobacco are legal, it really makes no sense to criminalise users of cannabis." That sentence does at no point make claims for your opinion on either alcohol or tobacco, as I'm sure users of the English language would concur. HTF did you get that so wrong? Bizarre.

P.R.

It's an utterly ridiculous, argumentative question Ashley. Of course children should not use cannabis unless it is prescribed to them by a doctor. The very small risks of cannabis are greater in children as are the risks of any drug.

P.R.

A.W.claimed victory?

Dear God, the man is deluded.

P.R.

In what, plonker of the year, most embarrassing denial of science, making a fool of yourself online?

K.J.B.

are u effing HIGH ash, zero tolerence doesnt work, look at the krokodil epidemic in Russia....

K.J.B.

i will save u all a lot of time, ASH go look at this, www.leap.cc

S.O.

‎"So at what age to we introduce the wonders of cannabis to children? Anyone?"

Possibly the most inane post of all time. Is this another "ideological pathway"?

Ri.F.

Yikes. Of course children should not be allowed to have cannabis or any other drug at all unless prescribed by a doctor. When they are adults they can make their own decisions. Be they healthy or not healthy ones

A.W.

There's a reason why the zero tolerance approach works in countries like Sweden and Japan. They consider both the use and sale of drugs to be a criminal offence. The prohibition in America you refer to only targeted the sale of alcohol.

So whilst a deterrent for the sale of alcohol was implemented, buy it wasn't.

It goes without saying if you take a zero tolerance approach, you deter both buyers and sellers.

And no victory has been claimed on my part. Simply a dissenting albeit lone opinion. If you take comfort from being within a majority, fine.

As only Peter has offered an answer to my original question (I am grateful he concedes that cannabis should not be introduced to children), can I ask, how do we decide what constitutes the responsible use of cannabis?

We know the limitations for both men and women for alcohol, but how do we teach children to use cannabis responsibly when they grow up? Or do we leave them to their own devices?

A.P.

‎'The government department for responsible cannabis consumption recomends no more than five joints, of a standard build and strength, a week'

S.O.

No "comfort obtained" from being in a majority (of this particular topic?). I shall ignore the inference that I haven't reached my own conclusions - not for the first time where you're concerned Ashley.

What do you mean how do we teach children to use cannabis responsibly? Does the high level of alcohol abuse indicate that we currently teach children to use alcohol responsibly then? Come on man, please develop a coherent argument rather than an argument for the sake of having one.

As for your typically disingenuous approach to dismissing the prohibition of alcohol in the US of A as having any bearing, I shall have to outline the fairly obvious point inherent in illustrating it. Prohibition does not prevent people using cannabis, just as prohibition did not prevent people consuming alcohol. It is a rather schizophrenic ideal to dismiss the prohibition of the latter but support the former, on the grounds that it is a less harmful drug. Plainly, alcohol is a much greater harm to society as a whole. Cannabis users tend to affect nobody but themselves - if you had any experience of the drug, which you clearly don't, you would know that is the nature of it. However, it is worthwhile reminding myself at this juncture that 'zero tolerance' has only arisen as a fairly obvious means of redirecting your original claims.

I shall remind you once again, incidentally, that 'zero tolerance' does not categorically work in Sweden and Japan. As an intelligent man you must surely acknowledge that the penalties for use will adversely affect the number of people prepared to admit to taking it - I'm not sure we can trust those figures, and I'm not sure why you do. I agree that a 'zero tolerance' approach would certainly cut down their usage, not least the supply, but eradicate? No, it is clear that it has failed to do so (was it 8% in that article? That's far from being insignificant, in crime terms it's very high).

In any event, the reality is (and it's reality we should be concerned with rather than chin-stroking egotism) that there are millions of users in the UK. Zero tolerance, well you just can't believe it'd change that overnight. Really, what is the point of criminalising them? To my mind, it is a complete nonsense when you allow drugs such as tobacco and alcohol, particularly seeing as the latter is by far the most socially devastating drug (responsible for the majority of violent crime, for instance). That's my basic argument and I fail to note any worthy response to it.

Ashley, maybe you should try some. Until then you really are talking out of your harris I'm afraid.

H.A.

Scott I don't care much for your personal point of view of Ashley; he is as entitled to his view as anyone else but I DO agree with a lot of what you are saying. Sorry Ashley, but I have smoked for er...30 mumble years. I am not psychotic and neither is my family. I have never been tempted to try anything harder. I chose smoke as my relaxant at the end of the day rather than alcohol because I realised I could be a lot more in control as a parent stoned than as a parent drunk. I have seen too many alcoholic parents scaring the crap out of their kids, weaving in front of them with glazed eyes, boozy breath and erratic behaviour. If I could have overdosed on cannabis I would have done so by now. I haven't. If I leave my area for a holiday I don't even think about the stuff - but god help anyone who takes my cigarettes away from me. Unlike Cannabis, tobacco IS addictive. Extremely. Smoke is a relaxant, alcohol is a stimulant. I have seen perfectly nice people turn into violent monsters on drink; can't say I've seen the same with smokers. EVER. Newspaper articles that carry stories of people committing crime and try to link Cannabis to their violence are ridiculous. If you are stoned, you do not exactly jump around in my experience lol. I am currently witnessing a friend destroying themselves on alcohol and they are closed to criticism. I have attended alcoholic's funerals and they are the saddest funerals I have ever been to, because no one turned up - apart from other drinkers. I have seen alcoholism in my family and the stress on relationships it has produced. I have been drunk about five times in my life? The last time I was drunk was to express grief over a dead parent. I turned into an animal and scared the bejesus out of my family and myself. These are my experiences and my view on the two drugs

Ri.F.

Hetty I wondered what that cloud of smoke that followed you was :p

H.A.

As far as the 'right age' to introduce children to drugs is concerned, you don't really need to concern yourself with this whether you are a smoke or a drinker because someone else will introduce your children to the stuff no matter what you say to your kids. I'm much happier knowing my kids may be getting stoned at home with friends, than jumping into ponds at the dead of night, starting fights with other people, dropping their trousers in a pub or beating up their partners or bonking people they normally wouldn't touch with a bargepole. sorry honey, but I think you will find that most people probably won't agree with you about the excessive use of Cannabis being as dangerous as the excessive use of alcohol. People need escapism no matter what. When I was a youngster, it was not just cannabis and alcohol but glue and even Tippex. When people from the West stop suffering from so much stress, you may find the need for ALL is reduced.

H.A.

lol Richard..also great for creativity. Some of my best writing and music is sparked by a smoke :) lol x

Ri.F.

For any form of drug it is the parents responsibility to control their childs intake of it as children do not in a physical or a legal sence have personal responsibility there.

Adults can do as they wish in my eyes with alcohol, but in safety and away from children. I know that is not the current law. Lets not promote drug abuse to children.

Alcohol is damaging that is true however it would be silly to introduce another danger to society just because we already have one. It would be cleverer to remove the first danger however that would require social change. I do believe successive governments have been working ver very slowly at this

K.J.B.

zero tolerence makes things worse, just like prohibition, go look at that LEAP link i posted, thats a bunch of VETERAN cops telling you what WE are telling you too......

D.L. ‎

H.A.you dark horse you lol

J.R.

Ashley. In 1976 a psychiatrist who specialized in alcohol related problems told me that there were an estimated 500,000 children under the age of 16 years in the UK with alcohol abuse problems, so clearly children having access to alcohol is a serious issue and has long been so.

As for giving children cannabis, I would not recommend it to anyone under the age of 16 as the brain is not fully developed but the same rule applies to alcohol. However, it's time to stop dragging our feet over irrational laws that criminalize people for wanting to enjoy themselves or just relax. To date there has not been one death worldwide from smoking cannabis but there have been millions due to both alcohol and tobacco use. Your claim that cannabis is a "considerably more dangerous drug than alcohol" is quite clearly not true and the real issue with any drugs legislation, is that it should be target at harm reduction rather than prohibition.

The possession and use of cannabis has been illegal in the UK for the last 83 years and legislation prohibiting it's use has been largely inaffective. This is why the police give out warnings rather than prosecute for the possession of a small amount of cannabis. Neither the police nor the CPS want to be tied up with prosecuting people for cannabis possession, when historically prohibition has failed to stamp out it's use and in reality criminalizing cannabis has done more harm than good.

Having read the Times article on cannabis you posted previously I would point out that the article is misleading and the writer is unable to prove a link between schizophrenia and cannabis use. The 'undisuptable' fact, as the article describes it, that people with schizophrenia use more cannabis than the general population is not evidence of causation.

I also not that the writer attempts to demonstrate that different attitudes and policies in Sweden, Holland, and the UK, leads to it's usage but he makes no comparison on the incidence of schizophrenia between the three countries. I suggest that the differences between Sweden's prohibitive approach, the Netherlands' liberal approach, and the UK's confused prohibitive approach, and the 3 countries' usage, is likely to be more related to the 3 nations' Gini co-efficients, which are 25, 30.9, and 36, correspondingly. What further contradicts the article is that the UK has a lower incidence of schizophrenia than Sweden, despite a recorded 30% higher cannabis usage. Odd that, if Dr Murray's assertions are correct!?

J.R.

ps Ashley. Japan's Gini co-efficient is 24.9, just 0.1 lower than Sweden's! And, not only that but there is also a huge difference in cultural and attitude.

pps. The incidence of schizophrenia is Japan is higher than either the UK, the Netherlands, or Sweden...

A.W.

Thanks Hex - Whilst I appreciate some of the facts may not correlate with what you personally experience, it certainly does with other families that have.

It should be acknowledged that lots of families have experienced a rough time because of drink. But that's no real reason to say we should legalise every substance known to man, including cannabis. We know the grizzly truth about alcohol and more should be done to educate people about the dangers of it.

Scott - Thanks. But you have made some sweeping assumptions. Firstly what made you think I am a uni student? Secondly, what made you think I have never had any experience with cannabis?

It's neither double-think nor schizophrenia on my part that suggest that the alcohol van in alcohol didn't work but the ban on drugs in Sweden does. Just simply the willingness to enforce them.

H.A.

I respect your opinion A.W.and agree that a firmer decision should be made about all these drugs, addictive or not. It is causing a lot of confusion and almost a civil war type scenario between drinkers and smokers in certain respects. I think as I said before, it would be good for our civilisation to evolve to a point where the need for escapism that alters mind or body is no longer required as an antidote to stress. :)

H.A.

I enjoy smoking. I like the sociability of it, I like the expansion of my mind's idea, I like the natural creativity that comes from my fingertips. I feel relaxed, calm, in control, positive. I tend to look at people more affectionately. I like to discuss philosophy et al in depth with like minded people without the normal sober restrictions in communication. I love the humour of it. The infectious belly laugh or cackle that sets off a domino line of others. I love the thought process of imagination that can turn into creativity, the heightening of my hearing and my taste. I like the peace and tranquility of it. I have often used it as a painkiller, to stop an argument, to understand an upset. Its been in my life for years and I have never had a problem with it, quite on the contrary. I think this is the last time I'm going to comment on this subject to be honest. It has appeared so many times before. People who get badly drunk are likely to have a similar predisposition to addiction as those who get badly drugged. Moderation and balance is key in all angles of life; this is no different to my mind. Live and let live.

Thanks from all from PoliticsUK

2011-12-28T10:21:00.000-08:00

Thanks from all at PoliticsUK

On the 1^st of April 2011 I created PoliticsUK. It was actually called “Politics in the UK” but a typo error when I was setting up the page missed out the “in the”. To be honest I prefer PoliticsUK now.

It was never my intention for the page to be anything but a place where a small amount of users could argue the toss about political issues. I thought “If I get 30 likes, I will be well happy!!” Thirty 'likes' came very quickly (mainly through myself and Richard spamming every political page we knew) and from that came a community which is now striving.

I let you all into a secret. The “likes” that PoliticsUK mean nothing. They don’t give an accurate description of how many people are connected with PoliticsUK. When I post as the page, more than 10000 people see the post. We have approximate 2000 daily page views, comments are on average double that. What I am trying to say, in a roundabout way, is that without PoliticsUK users, you guys, PoliticsUK would be nothing.

And I write this to thank you for the community that you guys have built. I feel very privileged for this.

I would like to thank ever single poster, every single person who has interacted in PoliticsUK in any way. Without you..well the page would be very boring!! I would also take time to thank Richard Frazer, without him I would have been lost. I won’t name everyone individually who has supported me because there has been many but they know who they are, but thank you xox.

Thank You.

And from all of PoliticsUK

Happy New Year!!

Alan Wyllie

Politics UK users reaction to St Paul's Dean Graeme Knowles resigning over the Occupy Protest.- 31 October 2011

2011-12-28T06:24:00.000-08:00

Politics UK users reaction to St Paul's Dean Graeme Knowles resigning over the Occupy Protest.

St Paul's Dean Graeme Knowles resigns over protests

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-15524483

M.Ca.

Nothing new in this story apart from the Archbishop's statement. The occupation wont be ending any time soon.

Richard Frazer

Nice work Occupy. You have just ended the career of a very respected religious man.

There is another person out of work.

M.Ca.

He resigned Richard, that was his own choice. If only more people had the balls to make a stand like that for what's right.

Richard Frazer

That's not right putting an honourable man in a position where he had to resign

Richard Frazer

Maybe all our most honourable people should be put in positions where they have to resign. We can then all sit in tents and protests we have no honourable people in jobs

Mick Constable ‎

"Maybe all our most honourable people should be put in positions where they have to resign.”

Noooooooooo, who will control the idiots then

A.K.

It is very sad that yet another member of the clergy has resigned...the Dean of St Pauls and the Canon last wk...The protest is not about the church but it highlights the schism between the financial interest of the church and their thological interests....This protest is about a fairer society...

Last week we saw Capitalism in melt down..81 MPs revolted against the gov to get us out of Europe..Greece is in default, the Eurozone is out of control we are on the verge of another recession unemployment is at 2.27million..+...benefits are cut energy prices soaring...The rich are getting rich while the vast majority is getting deeper in debt..

The protesters are there to highlit the fact that despite causing the recession the banks are bailed out by the taxpayer these banks award themselves with huge bonuses...While workers suffer pay freezes the top directors award theselves 49% pay rises...

These are the injustices that the protesters want the gov to address that is the reason for the protests...Jesus would have been out side of the temple with the protestors....

J.Z.H.

And STILL they want to save the Euro!

Richard Frazer

A.K.- fully agree

B.H.

Anita: Life is unjust; there will always be winners and losers. People can protest about it and urge the government to do something about it, but what and how?

Interesting how those on the left start banging on about Jesus, whilst being largely atheist.

Mick Constable

Thats because they are lost for any meaningful words of wisdom Barry, think its called gob smacked

Dean Knowles said his position had become untenable

Richard Frazer

More minister being driven out of a job he appeared to be doing well, by a bunch of largely jobless (unless you count professional anarchists as a job). What has that achieved?

J.Z.H.

Maybe many misunderstand the role of the Church of England in Britain's history, and the significance of it today. Rather than simply being a spiritual organisation, it also served as a community hub, and helped to secure social cohesion as well as community solidarity before we had social reforms. It was also pseudo-political... local churches and their ministers could be thought of as the pre-runners to modern councils and members. There are still some rights afforded to the church to encourage these old roles: e.g. the Archbishop of Canterbury's right to bestow degrees, the Crown as the head of the church, the hierachy and (until recently) bishops in the House of Lords. This is one reason why the Church constantly makes changes to it's structure and principles - it is strongly linked with British politics from it's very inception, and provides a unique social hub.

My only disagreement with them would be the role of Jesus! (In jest of course ;))

Mick Constable

They have achieved nothing, they have little if any popular support, they are a drain on society and quite simply a waste of space.

Move them on, and if they resist, forcefully move them on with big sticks

Richard Frazer

They need to be lifted from the site now. They have made their protest and they will clearly not move on without a fight. Let them have their media day with forceful removal (which is what they want). Let them create fake photo's of police brutality, but move them on. The police will have the backing of the public as they did on the whole with the riots (which I admit were without any reason at all so were different).

D.L.

Time to go protest over sure but why such venom from posters here? Not getting it ........................

Richard Frazer

I absolutely guarantee if they are moved on. . . claims of police brutality will be thrown about (poor police - I would hate to do their job). So we need to accept the crying wolf and just get them out of their now.

M.Ca.

Certainly people being upset by the Occupation movement shows to me it's doing something right.

D.L.

Hi Richard I trust you are well my lovely? x Surely he chose to leave? I can't see anything that says otherwise? Also some people are under the illusion the cops should go softly softly maybe just interpretative error for brutality as i read it. I sometimes wonder why we get so het up when people protest ........history is littered with evidence that civil unrest is what brings changes and no one here has ever said we don't need change !LOL I can't see that agreeing with the cause behind protest is always the main thing really. I am mindful of the countryside alliance protest, for me bunch of toffy nosed stuck up draconian twats with little to say worth listening to, never thought for one minute they had no right to protest for what they think to be right. I paid for the policing of their demos etc Bit more respect for other believes goes a long way. Just saying ...............................

N.S.

They plan to be in tents towards Christmas, maybe going to join the demos on the 30th the TUC day of action. Then go home...or maybe not

S.S.

Hopefully they will have been moved on long before Christmas.

A.K.

First of all Barry..."winners and losers"...problem is Barry the only winners seem to be the bankers/the rich and the rest of us carry the debt....I am a Christian and a Catholic and was a lay minister...most Catholics are socialists...."

Richard peaceful protest is a vital part of our British tradition...It is It is a powerful way of getting your message accross and it was the means by which most of our freedoms that we enjoy today were won...Trade unions which ended child labour and brought better conditions in the work place better pay..........womens suffrage....

I regret those clergy resigning but when you are a minister your first priority is God and your concience has to be guided by this...they are as you have said very hounerable men...But many such men have done this and more...Oscar Romero bishop of el Salvador gave his life for his people.....

D.L.

Think A.K.you are one intelligent woman x

S.S.

Anita, as I understand it, and I am sure someone will correct me if I am wrong, the protesters are not being asked to leave, they are merely being asked to remove their tents.

A.K.

Sheila no the Bishop wants them to go...

The Bishop of London said he does not want the anti-capitalist protest outside St Paul's Cathedral to end in violence, as he defended a legal challenge which could lead to the camp's eviction.

Speaking to hundreds of protesters on the cathedral's steps yesterday, the Right Rev Richard Chartres said he shared demonstrators' concerns about corporate greed, but refused to abandon the legal route which has shaken the Church of England.

He told demonstrators the site had become an "experiment" and "laboratory" for democratic protest and the legal bid did not mean "we are on the inevitable road to violence".

"Whatever happens, nobody wants violence," he said. "There is nothing that will efface the value of what's been done better than violence." But he countered: "The camp could be taken over by people who are very different from the ones who are in charge at the moment. I think it is a prudent measure."

Today, as two legal challenges to remove the 200 Occupy London Stock Exchange tents in the financial district begin, the cathedral will attempt to quell protesters' frustrations over the bishop's tone, which appears to be confrontational yet conciliatory.......

A.K.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/bishop-comes-face-to-face-with-protesters--but-wont-back-down-6255005.html...

S.S.

I'm sure the Bishop does want them to go, I wouldn't want them in my back yard either, but the article states that the tents are to be removed, no mention of removing protesters.

Richard Frazer

He did choose to leave. . . but the question is why did the church minister choose to leave? He spells it out quite clearly because the Occupy protest outside and similar public protests are stopping him from performing his duties as a minister

Richard Frazer

Everyone has the right to protest. So protest an then go home.

People being upset and making good people quit their jobs is certainly a success for occupy.

M.Ca.

He CHOSE to resign! What part of that don't you understand?

D.L.

I read it that he felt he had done all he could, believed in the 'cause' and wanted some fresh eyes on the situation. My understanding is he feels deeply that he has made the right choice. I take my hat off to him personally Richard, not many follow their convictions nowadays. Also the tents are a bit of an eyesore now, I remember protesting outside SOuth Africa House about 2 zillion years ago 24/7 with no tents. We just got organised as will these guys if their convictions are any where near as honest as our man. Protest and civil unrest peacefully that causes this amount of interest and disruption got to be a positive towards change don't you think?

Richard Frazer

M.Ca.- As did Mr Fox and Thatcher. However there was little choice. The guy CHOSE to resign as he found his job untenable. What don't you understand about that?

Richard Frazer

I do too Dawn, clearly a very honourable guy. We should be encouraging people like that to remain role models in society, not encouraging them to leave

Richard Frazer

I do give Occupy the fact they are organised. However every time you ask what it is about, you get different answers and the majority of the public care little.

S.O.

He chose to resign is the only pertinent factor. A role model sticks around.

I don't particularly agree with the protests as it happens. Not because of the tents, Christ alive that anyone should dismiss a protest because it's a little unkempt, but due to the inability to communicate any coherent message. Most laymen don't even know what they're doing there and what they're protesting for, and that dooms it to failure and ridicule.

A.K.

Canon Giles Fraser told the London Evening Times that he resigned because of the action of THE CATHEDRAL ...He believes that the proposed eviction will result in violence...Giles Fraser has been a great supporter of the protestors and their cause...

Dean Graham Knowles resigned today because of the Cathedrals handling of the situation....The clergy at St Pauls are very divided...

Both men went according to their belifs.....as a good clergyman should...

A.K.

Richard Mr Fox got found out and went before he was pushed...Margaret Thatcher was knifed in the back by her own party she went before she was pushed.....

D.L.

I do wonder though if he might have stood up for whats right though.............just saying

Mick Constable

There should be no violence if the demonstrators abide by the law and remove thier tents.

D.L.

There has been violence?

L.C.

Robin Smith, a 48-year-old former Conservative councillor for Wokingham Town Council, said he was one of many part-time protesters at the camp.

“I’d say about 25 per cent of the people go away and come back. There are lots of normal middle-class people turning up and helping but they have to go back home and some people come once and go away,” he said.

“They’ve got jobs and a family to keep, so they’ve got to look after their kids or go to work. I met one guy who comes in then goes home to go to work.”

A.K.

Mick they want the protesters to go as well as the tents....on protester said he will sit on the floor and the police will have to physically remove him...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/oct/30/bishop-ducks-st-pauls-challenge...

D.L.

The protesters should move into the city........

Mick Constable

Wandsworth Common would be a good alternative, or set adrift on the Thames

Alan J B Wyllie

I would be extremely angry if their occupation interferes with Remembrance Sunday.

Mick Constable

You and thousands of others Alan.

D.L.

One of the reasons they should move Alan unlike Mick i think somewhere more high profile but they have the attention of the media and the underlying message is pretty spot on. But i kind of like bit of civil unrest ya know me bit naughty like that x

A.K.

Alan the protesters have behaved impeccably so far...so I cannot see they would disrupt the Remamberance Services...They have been given 48hrs. to go or face an injunction...

Christian groups are talking about encircling the camp with a ring of prayer if the police come to evict them.....

D.L.

A.K.where are you getting the news feeds from? Can i ask a question please might be termed a little personal so don't want to cause offense x

Mick Constable

Arrest them to, bloody noisy prayers, no need or use for them

D.L.

You said something about violence earlier where have you read that? i can't find anything about it?

Mick Constable

I said there should be no violence if the demonstrators abide by the law and remove thier tents.

D.L.

Ah ok no real reason to think there might be though so strange point to make...................

Mick Constable

Why

A.K.

D.L.I watch Sky News and get a lot of info from that and I read the Telegraph and get good info from that.. I watch the paper reviews and get different view points and then I make up my mind what I believe is right...I have know much of what I have put on here for days...

St Mick you may not have need for pray groups but others have...they will not be noisy they will be very respectful...Their aim is to avert violence....

The Church of England has to decide if it is on the side of the exploited or the exploiters....The Church of England cannot just sit on the fence...

Mick Constable

St Mick, I like that, it has a ring to it :)

A.K.

D.L.the clergy that resigned did so because they believed that the Cathedrals actions of evicting the protesters would end in violence...They did not want to see another Dale Farm episode....

D.L.

But nothing i have read says there has been any the resignation surely has had an impact on the protesters and they will move on?

D.L.

any violence sorry

A.K.

Mick I have a very fertile imagination ...we will convert you yet....what a strange saint you would make.....

Mick Constable

I could do confessions and things.

D.L.

Actually A.K.my question to you would have been regarding that viewpoint. Fence sitting,The Dean could it be argued that he could have made a different choice? Possibly to stand WITH the protesters

H.B.

it should be no surprise we are adding the church to the list of institutions caught off guard by reality of the citizens. politicians, business, police, media and now the clergy. if we take a long view its a good thing. we are in the slow burn of a true change.

L.C.

I've heard there was violence at the Newcastle occupation at 4am this morning when 20 or 30 EDL attacked the camp,Seen nothing in the media.Apparently took the police 10 minutes to arrive.Strange if these occupations are such a threat to public order that the camp wasn't being watched a little closer by the police.

D.L.

Which is the WHOLE point H.B.we all agree we need change civil unrest historically is what brings about change ..................

D.L.

lol and who was it being violent Lee?

A.K.Kirby

The protesters are non-violent any violence will come from the police...The real violence comes from the financial sector who have caused this world wide recession....and caused many people world wide to suffer....Yet they continue to reward themselves and carry on business as usual...with no attempt to reform....This is not the first financial crisis the banks have caused and it won't be the last if they are allowed to get away with it...

The protesters are telling the government we have had enough and want change now ....It is not just here in the UK it is all over the world people are protesting against this corrupt world banking system.....

Mick Constable

The protestors could goad the police simply by not moving on as requested, and as such being made to move followed by calls of police brutality and violence, simple deduction of the extreme scenario.

And a few protestors are telling no-one anything apart from they are simply being a pain

D.L.

but they should move tothe city

D.L.

Bigger Picture Mick ............

H.B.

probably will be like that. put it won't be a failure for the reasons above. sometimes i think the more we micro analyse for conclusions the less we see the bigger picture.

Mick Constable ‎

"I've heard there was violence at the Newcastle occupation at 4am this morning when 20 or 30 EDL attacked the camp”

No reports, non event then, simply unfounded gossip

D.L.

but they should still move to the city

D.L.

worth ignoring then Mick so lets not dwell eh.................

A.K.

D.L."sitting on the fence"

Jesus spoke up for the powerless and against injustice...the abuse of power at the expense of the oppressed...

The clergy at St Pauls ALL of them read the bible each day and kiss this book and say this is the word of the Lord...Not some of it is the word of the Lord....So they either go along with the teaching of Jesus or if not they cannot be considered to be Christian....

Jesus did not condone violence...he rebuked Peter for trying to defend him from the Romans who came to crusify him....that is why the clergy who resigned did so....because they were following the teachings of Jesus....

A.K.

Mick do you mean hearing Confessions or telling them....I dont think there is a priest in the land who could cope with your confessions...lol

H.B.

exactly the church should be praying for them and talking and inviting them in. not seeing them like Mick does, as a pain. the chapter is clearing too wrapped up in its own processes to see the good they could be doing.

Mick Constable

Helen, they have little if any public support, otherwise there would be thousands of them, even the anarchists cant be arsed to turn up to cause trouble

L.C.‎

@ Mick Constable,My source was someone who was there.I said I'd seen no reports in the media,That doesn't mean it never happened! A quick search will show plenty of sources backing up the "non event" or unfounded gossip." Do you not agree that the EDL may be capable of violence,Mick?

Mick Constable

Tried searching, found nothing, as for the EDL, wankers

Mick Constable

Perhaps you could post a link as I have also asked a frind who lives there and he has heard nothing about it

L.C.

Perhaps your search engine has the "block left wing sites" filter switched on.

Mick Constable

No answer then, OK

H.B.

why are you so angry.? five minutes of legal aid cuts news this morning has made my really angry. not this. but maybe you have never needed state or legal support? maybe you have never been systematically beaten by your partner? or applied for benefits because you have been so ill you can't get out of bed for months? its easy to be arm chair angry. at least some people are protesting the war on vulnerable people. it May not be a perfect protest but people are listening. the hardest thing when you have little voice or power in society. they are doing it for millions of us.

D.L.

Thanks for that answer A.K.it is the one i have been arguing with my hubby LOL but the protesters should move to the city

D.L.

Morning Helen, your point is spot on! Direct the venom and anger at those that are truly responsible for causing mayhem i say! Chances are by 'hitting out' at the REAL criminals we might just get to the route of the problem

A.K.

The protesters camped out side of St. Pauls Cathedral have been given written notice that they have 48hrs to move on or be evicted.. The Cathedral authorities blame the corporation and say it not the cathedral bringing legal action....

Three very principled clergymen have resigned because of the way the Cathedral is handling the situation....

Are the Cathedral authorities having a Pontius Pilot moment and washing their hands of the protestors who's cause they claim to support.......

1 November at 10:53 · Like

Mick Constable No anger Helen, just bloody annoyed at the waste of taxpayers money being, and going to be spent, on these time wasters.

They have no public support otherwise there would be many thousands more out there supporting them (armchair support is excluded).

Now they have been given notice, watch out for the anarchists turning up to create trouble as they did at Dale Farm.

J.Z.H.

Anonymous will always have my support.

Mick Constable

How is a nuisance an injustice, bit of an over-reaction ??

T.B.

In terms of wasted taxpayers money I'm sorry but your tax gets spent on all sorts of shit. Brand new spanking football stadiums we don't need, wind-farms that seemingly haven't nailed it, etcetera... I'm sure you can come up with your own examples... but no matter how misguided you think these protests are - and undoubtedly the larger it gets the more people's personal opinions get involved - I think credit needs to be given. They've been so organised; they have a food tent, music clubs, tech tent, a library, they’re peaceful, there’s a university tent, lectures and plenty of debates... the later prove that a majority accept they don’t know what the route problems are; a lot have purely been affected and think it’s wrong; they put it down to “greed” and all that rhetoric, in which there’s a lot of truth, but I think it goes straight over people’s heads... clearly waving the “anti-capitalism” banner won’t do them any favours either; it’s not the generalisation that needs to be focused on, it’s specific things in the system and the proof and figures that need to be honed in on and maybe then people will see some truth in it themselves. Something that convinces the house wife, the intellectual, the economist even, etcetera... Point is: like all things, with a bit of trial and error and debate I think they could work it out and hopefully the message will refine in its demands, currently I think it goes over people’s heads like some conspiracy theory, but maybe when these efforts are concentrated and they draw up a plan, a dossier, legislation or – I don’t know – something professional and intellectual that plays by the bank’s and government’s “official” ways will they – maybe – see the argument. We all know shit isn’t right, that’s surely part the reason we joined pages like this, but we can’t all go about thinking we are right... and with that, I expect a full back hander to my comment to follow haha

D.L.

Mick they got support no space for a zillion tents is there also peaceful so no need for any precious tax payers money to be spent unless the cops wade in like they did this morning on the PEACEFUL picnic ! I hope tented mini cities spring up all over our cities and towns ALWAYS a good thing peaceful protest

Why did the "Yes" campaign in the AV referendum fail so badly? -

2011-12-27T15:46:00.000-08:00

Politics UK

Why did the "Yes" campaign in the AV referendum fail so badly?

Liberal Democrats start investigation into AV referendum defeat | UK news | The Guardian

www.guardian.co.uk

Party president orders inquiry into disastrous Yes campaign, which was described by staff as a 'living nightmare'

A.H.

Because of the lack of funding for the Yes campaign, they should've had an equal footing and the public should've been correctly informed. I would've voted Yes, if i could, not least to have a fairer system in this country.

D.C.

People didn't understand it, didn't care, didn't like it, wanted PR instead, liked FPTP, voted against it as it was seen as a vote against Clegg and the campaign being undermined by tory propaganda...cough media. Think I got them all.

D.C.

plus what Alex said

S.F.

Plus 'people' wanted to 'punish' Nick and the Lib Dem for what they took as a betrayal (going into a coalition with the cons)

Alan J B Wyllie

Because it was a "miserable little compromise" which nobody wanted.

M.C.

I worked (for minimum wage of course...) for the Yes! campaign in the West Mids and whilst I wouldn't say it was a living nightmare, a lot of things coming from HQ certainly didn't help.

Added to that, we were also up against Labour's New Labour dinosaurs such as Prescott, Reid and others, as well as the full weight of the conservative press and party machine (some left wing media swung against us towards the end too. Still, I think we could have won it with the right battle plan.

And Alex, there was plenty of funding for the Yes campaign to begin with, sadly it was too quickly and wasn't at all wisely spent from what I could see.

M.C.

Alan, that quote is often misquoted. Clegg said that in relation to Labour's offer of AV for a coalition deal when the Conservatives had already offered the same.

A.H.

Mark, i meant in relative terms about the funding. The No campaign had all the millionaire Tories and right-wing media financial support, but i agree that the Yes funding was severely wasted :S

B.D.A.

So agree with S.F.even though I voted yes because I wanted change. Clegg could have stormed the YES vote if he hadn't been such a wet lettuce.

Clegg is still pretty much in la la land refusing to accept the buck stops at him while punching at straws looking for an answer.

Deputy Prime Minister Nick Clegg leaves a polling station after casting his vote in the AV referendum, which saw a resounding defeat for the Yes campaign. Photograph: Christopher Furlong/Getty

M.C.

True Alex, the No campaign had pretty much limitless funds from Conservative doners.

M.K.

The yes campaign relied on telling people the facts once, the no campaign made it about politics all the time. As well as all this the Sun, Daily Mail and other quality publications were telling people AV was complicated and too hard to understand. Oh and low turn out because some people saw not voting as a protest. Protests only work if you tell someone you're making them.

S.C.

There is that added ingredient.....not many people wanted it ( AV )

S.F.

Barry, I would have voted YES as well!

28 June at 06:43 · Like

M.R.

Because AV is a daft system.....PR is the only representative democratic mechanism......its used in more countries than any other system, its used in many European countries, including Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland.......No point making excuses AV is not fit for purpose.....simples...imho

S.F.

PR would have been better, yes.

And I live and pay taxes in the UK so I think I have all legitimacy in being interested into UK politics.

M.C.

Mark, AV would have been a step towards PR or one of the other more proportionate systems out there. AV is just a small evolutionary step from FPTP that would have been a good small improvement to our democracy. I mean people can still vote for just one party if they want under AV, effectively using FPTP themselves.

Some of the guys in our region's campaign found some research that showed how countries who made a small electoral reform step, tended to go on to further changes. New Zealand is a good example of this... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electoral_reform_in_New_Zealand

I can't remember who said it but this sums it up well "people who want PR and won't vote for AV are like people who want to win the lottery but won't buy a ticket."

Ah well, we electoral reformists are a patient lot and there's a lot of us now still pushing for modernising out democracy. FPTP will be consigned to where it belongs in history eventually.

M.R.

M.R.C.......I do not agree...sorry....only the English could consider AV to be electoral reform.......the principle problem with AV is that it is totally constituency based....and therefore replicates most of the wrongs of FPTP......and you are right, most people would still only vote once, or have one vote counted.......In my personal view.....anything less than PR is totally undemocratic.....AV is undemocratic, so, as a person who wants to see real Electoral Reform, I reject it completely.......

M.C.

I didn't say most people would only choose one preference, just those who are very tribal can choose just one if they want. I think a lot of people would like to register a number of preferences, I know I would.

AV would most definitely have been a step in the right direction and a nice evolutionary step at that.

R.F.

It would have been better than nothing, Mark. Now we won't get a chance at PR for a long time :(

The yes campaign was in the lead early on, and evidence showed that the more people understood it the more they were in favour. What happened to change that? A sustained program of misinformation and propaganda in the (mostly right wing) media. It never had a chance, the media tycoons have all the power.

B.H.

Ironic that those bleating on about democracy the loudest are also the ones complaining the loudest about the democratic outcome on the issue. The people have spoken: we do not want to give up FPTP.

R.F.

Democracy doesn't work when it's undermined by lying, scheming media interests.

B.H.

So democracy only works when it gives the outcome that you want it to, does it?

C.S.

The campigned focused more on point scoring on both sides, AV linked with Clegg and Lib dems in mostg of public eyes, most ppl thought it was to complicated, Even more uninterested, nowhw

C.S.

Nowhere near enough televised or public debates on this referundum. A wasted oppunity. Pity.

J.B

As someone who volunteered on the same West Midlands Yes campaign M.R.worked on, I'd argue that it largely did come down to the national Yes campaign being just a tad useless.

I've basically concluded that we lost because the national campaign did a horrible job attempting to sell people a solution for a problem they didn't think they had. NOtoAV then worked to make our proposed solution seem scary and bad, and that combined with the status quo bias the national campaign wrongly figured they could plough through with a generic anti-politician rant, meant we were slaughtered on the 5th.

(if anyone feels like reading a wall of text from me on this, I'm happy to post the other 710 (!) words I wrote about this back in May)

Riots in England. 6-10 August 2011

2011-12-26T12:42:00.000-08:00

Riots in England. 6-10 August 2011

Politics UK

‎26 years old man from Croydon has Died after being shot last night.

Source-BBC

T.H.

can't find anything on it.....

Richard Frazer

So now we start to hear of the deaths inflicted in memory or the death of someone (who may or may not have been in possession of a loaded gun)

Jac.H.

How many more to come? Unfortunately even this will not stop the mindless rioting.

T.S.

Circumstances unknown, also unknown if it's anything to do with the riots, also unknown if he was shot by rioters, gangs or Police!

S.D.N.

shot by the police i expect. it's what they do best, apart from accepting envelopes of cash from journalists.

A.P.

If he'd been shot by police, we'd know about it.

Politics UK ‎>http://www.thisiscroydontoday.co.uk/Exclusive-Man-shot-dead-West-Croydon/story-11366027-detail/story.html<

Richard Frazer

Doesn't really matter who shot the guy. It's another death to be attributed in honour of a death. Seems a little like perpetual motion

C.S.

yes S.D.N. are you out rioting or just on a pc agitating others ,your comments are out of order

Alan J B Wyllie

Without defending S.D.N.. Some coppers really are ar$eholes.

I once found a puppy, took it home fed it and wash it. The next day I handed it into the police staion..and I was charged with theft of the dog(as I had kept it overnight) and breach of peace(as I said"you are having a F****ng laugh).

F.S.

S.D.N. - What on earth draws you to that conclusion. These types of comments just make matters worse.

C.S.

loads of them are alan but in light of whats happening down south S.D.N. s comments are dangerous and illinformed

R.H.

tbh the police are mostly revenue collectors from motorists and protection for the elite. it seems very little police time is spent on gang crime or solving civilian crime. still i certainly support the police in fighting this uprising of anarachy.

A.P.

The met has a whole unit dedicated to gang crime. I agree they can be a little lazy and apathetic from time to time. We had a neighbour with a caravan that we saw somebody hooking up to their car to tow away while they were out. We called the police who told us they wouldn't do anything until it had gone. The caravan was never seen again.

Then there was the time my Marshall and guitar kit (not the guitar thankfully) was stolen out of my boot when I was getting ready to go out. They also tried to get the radio, couldn't remove it, so they just smashed it.

Only reason I got those back was because I went round all of the second hand/cash generator shops in the city asking them to look out for them. I got them back as a result and they managed to convict the fence, who got a slap on the wrist, and the perpetrators were never found. Did keep the tag they put on the Marshall at the police station on there though. Quite cool having a Marshall with a 'police evidence' tag on it. :-)

But overall, saying that they're only interested in protecting the rich is pretty unfair. There are a lot of good coppers out there doing the job for the right reasons.

L.McS.

I Feel that the reason it has all got out of control is people are jumping on the band wagon, you know ok that young lad did get killed and his family and freinds will want answers but then, there are people who will join in and get carried away this then has a domino effect and as a lot of young people are unemployed and arent at school they have time on there hands with nothing to do.

Politics UK

Riot-scarred Tottenham began picking up the pieces today from a night of violence that local trade unionists warned could erupt anywhere in Britain due to unemployment and social alienation write the Morning Star.

Is the Morning Star correct when it says that the riots in Tottenham is a sympton(sic) of Tory Britain"?

Tottenham unrest a sympton of Tory Britain / Britain / Home - Morning Star

www.morningstaronline.co.uk

British national daily newspaper, widely acknowledged as the only English-language socialist daily in the world.

W.H.
Communists blame anything right of centre when these things arise. They would have said the same thing under new labour.

J.F.

I'd say its a symptom of multicultural Britain. Thousands of extra unskilled workers into the UK population every year while there are not enough jobs for existing Britains.

S.D.N.

damn right. Bristol St. Pauls; Liverpool Toxteth; Manchester Moss-side; Oldham; Bradford; Sheffield; Barnsley; Burnley; Blackburn; Birmingham; Nottingham; Sheffield; Newcastle; Glasgow; Leicester..........

C.S.

J.F.it has nothing to do with multiculturism

J.F.

When I say multiculturism, I meant mass immigration.

There are simply no jobs and importing anyone, especially unskilled workers, will simply increase the line at the dole office and put a strain on all services.

C.S.

and S.D.N. when was the last time there was a riot in glasgow

C.S.
please enlighten me

S.F.

I agree with the Morning Star!

C.S.

its to do with lack of hope and the tory cuts are hitting these areas harder than others people are scared and feel badly let down

A.W.

After a night of true horror it's sickening to see any political party / paper try to use this to there advantage.

S.F.

It's so obvious!

C.S.

and with the lack of trust in the police it doesnt help when they kill locals and cosh 16yr old girls not conducive to good relations

C.S.

andy the papers are all going to use it ,its how they sell papers

J.F.

Race has nothing to do with immigration, which is an economic policy.

Thats not to say these cuts havent been too deep and in all the wrong places, which they have, but the UK government is not creating enough jobs to meet demands.

G.C.

What a load of old left wing garbage

C.S.

and immigration had nothing to do with the riot end off

C.S.

so you dont feel these youths seeing all the money getting thrown at the olyimpics and funding for their youth clubs slashed has had an effect then

G.C.

Nope none what so ever any excuses to burn Tottenham and try and set fire to police officers is gladly excepted down there ...which is why I am glad I ain't there any more

It was a grand night out for looting and that's it

C.S.

wonder if our pm thinks its important enough to cut short his well earned break [poor thing hasnt had a holiday for a month]

G.C.

Cecilla shooting locals ??... you missed out the words gun touting. hair triggered criminal

A.L.

there will be many more riots in the next few years

C.S.

it has not been established if he was carrying a gun that is speculation .that triustworthy open honest body the IPCC is looking into it

A.L.

was he a brazilian newsvendor?

G.C.

So who shot the policeman ? Himself

C.S.

well we shall see wont we if he had shot the policeman this would have been all over the news when it happened .not attempted to be pushed under the carpet

C.S.

im sure the headline would have went somthing like this [aman was today shot and killed after opening fire on police ]he lack of this info is imo suspect

I.J.

.... The day I listen to anything the Morning Star says will be a very sad day indeed!

G.C.

Officers stopped the car in Ferry Lane, Tottenham, on Thursday to carry out an arrest when the 29-year-old man, named locally as Mark Duggan, was shot.

Three shots were fired. A bullet was found lodged in a police radio.

S.F.

As it happens I agree with this article and I'd never heard of this newspaper before, so I had no prejudice!

G.C.‎

"Shots were fired and a 29-year-old man, who was a passenger in the cab, died at the scene.

"The attempted arrest was part of a pre-planned operation under Trident.

"It is believed that two shots were fired by a firearms officer, equippe...

K.F.‎

"Initial tests show bullet lodged in radio during Duggan shooting was police issue"

G.C.

S.F.it is a paper Stalin would have been proud to have Published so expected the Tory bashing from this commie rag

C.S.

well well now that is a surprise not

C.S.

so G.C.what do you say to kenneths post

C.S.

where did you here this kenneth

K.F.

Its an interesting conundrum the police find themselves in. They are asked to police poor, working class areas with middle class laws for the middle aged property owners of the UK . You then find a generation criminalised and resenting the police .

Some communities across the UK have been at war with the police for generations and a riot like last nights , is only a misunderstanding away . When people like Benjamin Zephaniah have little trust in the police you can understand how many feel victimised .

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2006/aug/05/comment.race?CMP=twt_gu

S.F.

To be fair, if anything like that had happened under Gordon Brown's leadership, I can't imagine what the Murdoch empire, the Daily Mail and the Telegraph would have made of it

A guess: labour bashing??

Obviously it is a symptom that needs analysis and it shows how edgy things are in the UK for large parts of the population!

S.F.

Kenneth, your link has really moved me! Scarry

G.C.

So be it and if true they need to learn how to aim better but I guess they will get away with it as it was lucky they had that spare gun to put on the floor of the taxi eh ?

So where is the initial result published ?

C.S.

ask kenneth

K.L.M.

http:// www.foreignersinuk.co.uk/news-foreign_workers_wanted_for_olympic_jobs_423.html

Maybe it had something to do with this???

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard-olympics/article-23915847-half-of-olympic-village-workers-come-from-abroad.do

Or this ^?

A.P.

Yes, we often get this sort of violence under a Tory government, since a significant proportion of left-wingers are uneducated thugs.

K.L.M.

So, sorry but I agree with Jordan.

S.F.

You are incredibly funny tonight A.P.!

A.P.

Thank you So Fi. :-)

S.F.

Welcome, it always feels good to please a right winger... never know ... he might be your boss one day!lol

S.F.

Are you mad?!

D.L.‎.

What we need to think about is why people think its ok to act like this and deal with that not out thug them John.

K.L.M.

I've just seen somebody say thay have a 9pm curfew in place

D.L.

really?

Richard Frazer

Some of the Birmingham Shops had the police contact them to say 'if they call evacuate' - How scarey is that

D.L.

god my nerves cant take this .........my son is in the middle of london

K.L.M.

Oh no, Dawn, I hope he is safe!!

D.L.

he is at the mo

K.L.M.

He should get outta there until this all gets under control :(

S.F.

I can't, I have mixed feelings, on the one hand I am shocked and sad at this destruction, on the other hand I blame the elite of society for what's happening not the poor souls who are destroying society along with their own lifes. These riots are why we need a fairer society or it will only get worse.

K.L.M.

Imho, I really don't think there is a reason behind these vile yobs' mindless acts of violence, arson and theft. There is no back story or a reaction to unemployment because most of these creatures are career dole dossers, waiting for their next hand out.

S.F.‎

"most of these creatures are career dole dossers, waiting for their next hand out"

And as common 'wisdom' will tell us, they do seem extremely happy to be so ... ... They really act like happy people!

A.P.

Of course it never has anything at all to do with Tory policies,funny how these things always seem to happen on their watch though

I.J.

S.F.I think its fair to say opinions on this issue are very polarised. Camp A believes society has some responsibility for the actions of the rioters. Camp B believes the rioters are criminal low lifes who will get what they deserve. I'm with Camp B

K.L.M.

ME camp B too.

S.F.

Ian I also believe they should face the consequences of their actions (when my kids fuck up I try to understand why to adjust their circumstances and my behavior AND I sanction) along with making sure we live in a society that gives them decent and interesting outlets for their adrenaline!

I.J.

Andy ...... priceless ...... its all the Tories fault ...... I wonder who'd been burning those shops and houses down, throwing things at the police, mugging members of the public .....it was the Tories all along. Personally I blame it on massed gangs of young Conservatives (the b****rds) .... lol

Richard Frazer

Andy - It was the collapse of our economy on the previous watch though wasn't it

Richard Frazer

Camp B - Camp A may have a point but would let the country rot to prove their point

I.J.

Richard stop it ..... Nu Labour did absolutely nothing wrong in 17 years its much more reasonable to blame it on 15 months of Tory rule (despite the fact that Labours cuts would have been almost as bad) ....

Richard Frazer

Wait a second; are you saying that this would of been inevitable as the same circumstances would of played out, as we are only in the beginnings of a Conservative rule anyway?

A.P.

Well who is cutting budgets so Youth centres have to close,leaving kids on street corners with nothing to do,who took away EMA so most of these kids probably wont bother staying on at school anymore to try and get on and do better in life,t...See more

K.L.M.

I can't believe what I'm reading, lol

H.A.

Don't get too heated. I did earlier on. This is very extreme guys and although we don't agree with each other, we do get on well enough to exchange views. This is an enormous situation and everyone is guilty and everyone is innocent.

H.A.

The left can be blamed. The right can be blamed. Racism can be blamed. The benefits culture can be blamed. Everything is playing a part in this.

Richard Frazer

Im not getting embroiled in the arguements with sympathies of the violent criminals either

A.P.‎

1981 was only about 18 months onto Tory rule,thats all it takes

Richard Frazer

It does amaze me though - How Labour's hard line left wingers will drag the country to ruin to show the country will go to ruin. However this situation is not political this time. . . it is criminal and nothing like the 80's riots as they actually had a point

I.J.

Andy its all very well getting all Class Warrior but saying that you probably hate the Tories more than the rioters is frankly purile. I don't like the Tories or Labour but am pragmatic enough to know that Labour would have implemented 95%+ of the cuts the Tories have. This issue though has nothing to do with which Party you support but everything to do with opposing criminality.

S.F.

Richard don't you think they actually make a point?

I think they do. They screamed 'you're rich we're not; tonight we're rich'.

It's about the haves and the haves-not, about the terrible income gap...About this rampant materialism and this constant competition...

It's also about a ruling elite so out of touch, lacking the most basic empathy towards people who have suffered through the cuts and the recession... Anger has been piling up for so long...

Richard Frazer

It may well be, but not is not the time to understand their woes in life. Now is the time to seek justice for the people who live in these cities and are being terrorised.

H.A.

Guys do you think that these rioters ASKED PEOPLE THEIR POLITICAL PERSUASION before they robbed them, burnt their houses, destroyed their vehicles? By all means you are entitled to reason, engage in debate - but the reality away from the co...See more

Richard Frazer

I have sympathy and empathy for the people whos businesses have been burnt out, the person who got shot (if he was innocent) and the people who are scared for their lives in their homes

H.A.

Put your political differences to one side. Just for once. And join in humanity and outrage at our country being destroyed.

H.A.

Okay I'll shut up now. Sorry but I feel a bit passionately about this, as I'm sure a lot of others do.

I.J.

S.F.I just don't agree. Its not to with rich versus poor, black versus white or Right versus Left ..... It is however responsible citizens versus criminals ....... Good luck to the Met and all the police forces around the country tonight.

S.F.

Ian, the real question is how do we make a criminal then. Do you really think babies are born criminals and by chance these evil babies tend to be born and deprived areas?

Richard Frazer

Support the police effort to protect innocent. Appose the criminality and violence

Richard Frazer

Nurture or nature question. So-Fi is this really the right thread for that?

A.P.

As I say,dont agree with the rioting and plundering,just dont know what other way frustrated people have to get their point across,the government dont listen,most of these cuts are ideologically driven,Tories doing what Tories do,300 Billio...See more

S.F.‎

"Nurture or nature question. So-Fi is this really the right thread for that?"

Actually yes, it's the right question for tonight!

S.F.

Or why do you think Britain suddenly has thousands of criminals??

Richard Frazer

Actually thinking about it Sophie you're probably right. I will start a new thread on this

S.F.

I suffered greatly through the recession and have been feeling very angry at the bad way the elite dealt with it, so I know I could have been on the bad side with the bad guys ... if I had not been a boring middle-class girl...

I.J.

S.F.it depends on your perspective ..... your coming at it I presume from the angle that society has turned these people into criminals. I disagree. I believe its a case of too many people not being aware of their responsibilities.

A.P.

Well need to build more prisons then to house them all,stop making cuts in police ,fire brigade and the prison service,we are obviously going to need these people more than ever

L.J.

so who is responsible for making them aware of their responsibilities Ian ? And does tory condemnation achieve this goal ?

H.A.

I'm sorry to hear that So Fi. I don't always agree with your views but its miserable to feel life is a daily grind, never being able to pay the bills, with that feeling of not being in control of whats going on. I knew people in the 90s who...See more

H.A.

I think your comment on thousand criminals is a very valid title for a different discussion thread.

S.F.

Thanks Ian

I.J.

Lisa we could have an entire thread on that topic. I'm sure where your coming from regarding Tory condemnation as I don't accept its party politically motivated? With regard to learning responsibility I suppose ultimately its a parental issue but again far too many carp upon about rights but seem unable or unwilling to accept the personal rersponsibility that with rights .....

H.A.

I should be entitled to feel safe in the country I live in. Everyone should.

K.L.M

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2023902/London-riots-Left-wing-cynics-blame-Tory-cuts-mayhem.html#socialLinks
Are you getting this all you lefties! lol

London riots: Left-wing cynics blame the Tory cuts for mayhem

www.dailymail.co.uk

Left-wing politicians have cynically sought to make political capital out of the riots, blaming government cuts for the orgy of violence.

S.F.

Well I still think it's fairly obvious that these riots happen within a wider context, even the New York Times mentions that!

>http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/09/world/europe/09britain.html?ref=world<

Budget Cuts and Scorn for Police Seen Fueling London Riot

www.nytimes.com

The riot was the latest in what has turned out to be a season of unrest in Britain, with multiple demonstrations escalating into violence in recent months.

S.F.

‎‎‎"There was some speculation that the latest outbreak partly reflected the painful austerity cuts in Britain’s national budget that have shriveled programs for unemployed urban youth."

Frustration in the impoverished area, as in many others in Britain, has mounted as the government’s austerity budget has forced deep cuts in social services. At the same time, a widely held disdain for law enforcement here, where a large Afro-Caribbean population has felt singled out by the police for abuse, has only intensified through the drumbeat of scandal that has racked Scotland Yard in recent weeks and led to the resignation of the force’s two top commanders.""

American media saying, not me

K.L.M.

Yes, but violence is not the answer.......they need this fantastic page (Politics UK) to make their voices heard..

J.R.

Well, it seems the 'left wing politician' (who only exist in the minds of Daily Mail readers!) have hit the nail squarely on it's head...

R.F.

People don't just randomly start rioting. This is symptomatic of some deep-seated social problems (which did exist before the coalition government, but have obviously been exacerbated by their policies).

K.L.M.

Yes, but the majority of whom I see on the news are afro-carribean....it seems like that's all who live in these areas. So of course it will seem like the police are 'picking' on them when it's predominantly afro carribs

P.L.

if there was a left wing govt in power the right wing would blame their softy bleeding heart approach to law and order. when we have a right wing govt the left blames them for causing disenfranchisement, social exclusion etc etc. you can trust both sides to play party politics whilst the people who pay their govt wages have their business burned.

I blame the rioters by the way.

K.L.M.

Hear hear, Patrick!

K.L.M.

There are young, oppressed youth in my area, who don't have jobs, yet they're not out rioting.

Richard Frazer

Best Statement of the day Patch

K.L.M.

Wait for BNP to jump on the bandwagon, lol, it'll be "we told you so" lmao.

S.F.

Yes the far-right is rising along with the riots! very worrying

Richard Frazer

These rioters are scavengers Robin - and you are right these riots have not just happened, they are organised to take advanatage of areas of the country while the police try and protect London.

K.L.M.

Yes, but these mindless thugs are playing right into the right's hands :(

Alan J B Wyllie

Im follow Nick Griifen on twitter and you can tell how happy he is....Twat

K.L.M.

The thing is, these type don't really do politics, do they, regretfully.

K.L.M.

Is NG on facebook? Lol, I might have a look and follow him on that ;)

Alan J B Wyllie

From our friend Nick

"nickgriffinmep Nick Griffin MEP

Local English activists keeping out of way. So must all of ours, let the colonists cause all the trouble."

Richard Frazer

http://www.smh.com.au/world/big-game-turns-confronting-and-ugly-20110809-1ijqj.html?from=smh_sb

Big game turns confronting and ugly

www.smh.com.au

K.L.M.

I can see that movie 'V' for Vendetta being played out very soon, very worrying indeed :(

Alan J B Wyllie

Twitter Karen,

>http://twitter.com/#!/nickgriffinmep<

Warning: Will make you feel "unclean"

K.L.M.

Speaks volumes, Richard : /

K.L.M.

Why thank you, Alan, lol :)

K.L.M.

bummer...the flippin page won't load :( gutted, lol

K.L.M.

‎'Liked' his FB page, lol, it says "Going off in bethnal green as muslims beat back black attack on islamic bank. Looting at mile end."

A.P.

Sadly predictable though,same conditions as 1981, a Tory government in all but name,pursuing a Right wing agenda which makes a large section of society feel disenfranchised,no jobs,no Youth clubs closed down due to cuts,people with nowhere to go and nothing to do.. all we need is the Argies to invade and everything has gone full circle,son of Thatcher will finally be able to emulate his heroine

A.L.

the whole world has gone mad, and the mob is currently ruling, but by tomorrow the hysteria brigade will be on the attack. i don't do excuses, but we have to look at the reasons behind this mess if it is to be avoided in the future. saddly we have very few people in authority that can be respected or looked on as an example to society. don't feel very hopeful tonight.

S.F.

This is the real teaching of that sad story: you need an impecable leadership if you want to lead a country through tough times. There is a complete lack of true leadership in the UK at the moment.

S.F.

And by that I do not mean send the army. I mean don't fiddle expenses, don't lie, don't be so smug, don't attack the poorest, make the rich pay and not just the poor...

A.L.

saddly our political system is rotten to the core, and we criticise third world countries

C.S.

we are celts we know the truth

A.L.

we are in a position to set up a more open system C.S., indeed it is our duty to do so.

R.F.

The right's individualistic arguments won't stack up. Can't simply blame the bad guys themselves when it's clear that society is producing them en masse. I think the government and their acolytes will be forced to take a lesson from all this.

S.F.

Hope you will! I notice only England is on fire! Speaks volumes!

A.L.

think it could happen anywhere so fi, would not be surprised if paris goes up next.

S.F.‎

"I think the government and their acolytes will be forced to take a lesson from all this."

Hopefully the blinkers will finally fall off. When I think only a few days ago arrogant Hague was saying that the UK was a 'safe heaven'... ...

S.F.

Why Paris?

A.L.

i'm off to my bed, nos da good night, hope everyone has a safe night.

S.F.

I meant only England within a UK context ie not in Wales or Scotland.

A.L.

paris has a history of riots, and historically these things happen at same time over the continent of europe

F.A.

Paris does have a large population that is impoverished. it's happened before, albeit not on this Scale

A.L.

it could happen in swansea so fi, politics is not as exiting in wales as in scotland, there is a chance of change in scotland, and hope

A.L.

nos da, good night all, be kind to each other.

S.F.

Paris does not have a history of riots anymore than London young man! that is sheer prejudice!

S.F.

That is insane british anti-French propaganda, me thinking these events would teach humility to Brits! sight...

But you never know...

M.W.

lol @ people trying to make this into some sort of political point. What I witnessed was just a bunch of thieving morons.

S.F.

Nothing like that EVER happened in paris by the way... Never seen anything like that myself

C.S.

pals dont let us argue we are all celts and we are damn lucky the english are going to take there streets back

S.F.

Well I am sure these people on the streets were all french and pro-EU obviously!

M.W.

Luckily Ken Livingstone is on hand with some well conceived arguments

F.A.

S.F.i really hope i haven't annoyed you. i know this kind of chaos is unprecedented in most western nations in recent times, but all cities do have populations that share characteristics that may be behind this. i'm really sorry if my post earlier suggested anything that could be taken as propaganda. :-S

R.F.

A bunch, Matthew? When a 'bunch' reaches this kid of magnitude, looking for the sociological reasons behind it is sensible, and necessary.

M.W.

I'll give you the reasons behind it - dickheads

R.F.

Exactly, it's the Conservatives' fault XD

M.W.

The thing with dickheads is that they always look to blame someone else.

C.S.

well i started of as looting but now it is getting deliberate organisation

A.P.

Yeah, absolutely right Matthew. Reading this you'd think these were all fine upstanding human beings going through the streets torching peoples property, mugging people.

I'll tell you the reasons for it. Some scum in Tottenham started a riot over a gangster being shot and looting started. They got away with it so more scum from further afield fancied a go because they can and so it snowballs.

A.P.

You Scots shouldnt sound so smug,when you get independence your politicians will go the same way,they will just want power,they will say one thing and do something else..the whole system is rotten to the core..Tory policies are to blame for these riots..they hammer the poor and disadvantaged and this is the result..the incompetence shown by them is inbelievable..would a major company allow all the top bosses to take holidays at the same time..thats what the government allowed

M.W.

‎^ lol

K.L.M.

Poor and disadvantaged? I've just heard a story that an upcoming lawyer was arrested wearing a 'hoodie'. I don't blame the government, perhaps labour should take some responsibility?

H.A.

Perhaps Karen? lol

K.L.M.

Lol. Some wil blame Tories, and some will blame Labour. Either way, riots take place across the world and under many different types of government regimes. I just think some people like to blame whoever suits their agenda.

Alan J B Wyllie

I think this has been building up since 2007ish.

Blaming political parties is puerile.

K.L.M.

I think this gang/thug culture has been around for a good decade now.

We are now like the USA.

L.R.

RIP Broken Britain.. You went soft on discipline!.. You went soft on immigration! Parents were told.. 'No you can't smack the kids'....Teachers were prevented from chastising kids in schools.. The police couldn't clip a troublemaker round the ear.. Kids had rights blah blah blah.. Well done Britain..You shall reap what you sow.. We have lost a whole generation.....thank you!!!!!

M.C.

Almost spot on but nothing to do with immigration, you let yourself down badly on that one

C.S.

scotland wales and ni are not rioting

S.O.

I never normally but I might just have to *lol* at this little collection of cliches.

M.C.

Sooner cliches Scott than burning buildings,destroyed livelihoods and fear

Alan J B Wyllie

Gotta disagree with the OP.

For one, its a tiny minority that is rioting.

Secondly, there has been numerous riots in the UK in the past, this is just the same.

R.H.

sure scott, i guess in your view its because the government closed some youth centers. *LOL* louise your dead right. C.S. scotland wales and ni aren't as broken as england. they still have national identity and national pride; more people there care for their communities.

Mark R.

Louise..you are entitled to your opinion, but personally I think you are a million miles off the truth....

L.R.

Sorry ppl but it's a copy and paste not, not my own words...........

L.R.

It's going around on facebook in other words,,,,

J.B.

I can vouch for that Louise is a general fb thing

S.O.

R.H., you're entitled to any opinion you like, you can get it wrong as often as you like, but I'm entitled to disagree with it. What you're not entitled to do is claim what I think. Particularly when you've got it spectacularly wrong. I don't believe I've once mentioned youth centres (I prefer the English spelling of the word).

J.B.

and some things do have a grain of truth

Mark R.

R.H......perhaps you are right...what an indictment of Tory England then........

K.L.M.

But Mark, what about all those years of Labour?

S.F.‎

“You went soft on immigration"

When I watched the BBC tonight Iheard a few immigrants: a Russian lady owner of a wine bar, an other foreign lady (I could not identify her nationality) owner of a hairdressing salon, both taking about their fear yeterday when being looted; I saw some asian people standing in front of their shops reading to defend themselves...

And I thought that these people were giving such a great example, Britain should be proud to have such a dignified immigration!!

K.L.M.

True, So Fi.

R.H.

Would you buy a gun if you could; given the current situation in the UK? I'm in no fit state to fight thugs. Only way I could defend myself is with a gun. What about your parent / grandparents? Could they defend themselves? The police can't defend us afterall.

K.L.M.

I don't know much about BNP but isn't the right to bear arms a policy of theirs?

R.F.

Oh god don't start talking about guns. Imagine how bad this would be if guns were freely available.

M.W.

Less bad?

K.L.M.

Eeekkkk

M.W.

Gorilla, & would it? You'd have to be a special kind of tool to smash in someone's door knowing there was a pretty good chance that you'd be met with a loaded gun. When the government can't fulfill their number 1 responsibility of protecting citizens & their property would you leave the weak at the mercy of violent thugs or level the playing field?

R.F.

What if the RIOTERS had guns? Who would be stupid enough to sit in their shop with a rifle when a gang of 20-100 armed teenagers is bearing down on them? The smallest of altercations would become lethal almost by default! So far we've avoided loss of life in this, that is a very good thing.

J.B.

No gun law is NOT the answer - what better way to descend into total lawlessness.

Richard Frazer

Don't condone society having guns, but there are potentially 3 more deaths in Birmingham this morning

M.W.

Robin, criminals already do have guns.

M.C. ‎

@ Robin “What if the RIOTERS had guns”

Take it youve not heard the news today then, THREE shor dead in Birmingham, and although it may dissapoint you, the Police didnt do it

R.F.

No I hadn't seen today's news last night, Mick, funnily enough. Are you talking about the three who got run over?? I can't find anything about a shooting anyway. Very sad either way, but I think more guns would mean more deaths whoever's hands they were in.

L.R.

Well, none of you will ever admit that immigration has played a big part because it is forbode on this site to discuss it. Even though I seen on the news there were rioters giving it as a reason, and b'cos they canny get a job! Keep on burying your head in the sand, just like the politicians do.

Breast Feeding - A perfectly nature requirement for all mammals, humans included. Why the big taboo to do it in public? Is there a need to do it in public? 14th August 2011

2011-12-26T08:50:00.000-08:00

Politics UK

The late night Question:

Breast Feeding - A perfectly nature requirement for all mammals, humans included. Why the big taboo to do it in public? Is there a need to do it in public?

M.J.N.

I have no problem with it being done in public. If a baby needs feeding, he shouldn't be forced to wait.

Richard Frazer

Absolutely with you on that one. I actually have no idea why in the modern age there are people who still see it as an issue. We all know what the human body looks like and it is simply to help a baby get nurishment

Alan J B Wyllie

In Scotland it is illegal to NOT allow breast feeding.

T.S.

I think it harkens back to the old victorian idea of public decency when women shouldn't be exposing themselves in such ways in public. Personally I have no problem with it, certainly more preferrable to a baby crying.

Richard Frazer

I think your right Tom - However a lot of clothing nowerdays exposes nearly the same amount of flesh. Yet society tends to fear seeing the whole breast but except without question most of it.

R.F.

What taboo? Seriously, anyone here that would take offense at a woman breastfeeding in public please put their hand up.

J.S.E.

Well I never made a point of going out and publicly breastfeeding, but saying that, if I was out and my child needed to be fed I would.I have fed my baby in (years ago) a restaurant and been asked to leave even though I was discreet, I argued that everyone else in the place was eating so why not my baby?Nothing gets my back up more than this debate, we dont feel offended when we see sheep or other mammals feeding their young in a field and no-one would ever suggest the poor african women stop feeding their starving babies for the sake of a poor offended westerner.If a baby needs a feed it should never matter where you are its a human right.

J.S.E.

loving you men for your positive views by the way :)

J.W.

i did it at home and i think there is a place in mother care feeding a baby i dont see why people want to do it in a public place

J.W.

in mother care for feeding a baby**

Jac. W.

Nowadays maternity clothes accommodate for this and everything is hidden, that you wouldn't even know a baby was being feed. It's shallow minded people that cause the problem. Here's a thought people don't look.

Richard Frazer

I think there are still those (maybe of the older persuation) who would feel uncomfortable sitting in a restaurant with a lady breast feeding either discreetly within eyeshot. I hasten to add that offence is in the eye of the beholder and it is their problem.

It is interesting to hear it is law in Scotland. What is the law in England and Wales around this?

J.W.

if you feed the baby before you go out why would it need feeding again if you are out for a long time you can bring some milk thats what i did in a bottle end of prop

J.W.

problem*

Richard Frazer

J.W.-

Do you consider it unneccessary or not pleasant?

what?

A.L.

most natural thing in the world, why do people coo when they see an animal sucking on a teat in a field, and have hysterics when they see a woman doing it in public, think there would be less fuss if someone was to have a public shit. victoria is no longer on the throne and grow up you narrow minded little bigots. and what is wrong if a breast is displayed, is it going to corrupt the young, start a right or what.

Richard Frazer

You never breastfed when out at all. Sounds like a policy. Or did the situation never come up?

Richard Frazer

This is perhaps our worst debate since opening this page as everyone appears to agree. Taboo is perhaps the wrong word. Society seems to have changed for the better here I think

J.W.

well i did it for a year and i dont personally like to do it in public

A.L.

and why should a mother be forced to retire to a toilet or tiny room to spare the blushes of the bigots, feed a child when it needs feeding.

J.S.E.

my babies would not have a bottle, so like I said I only ever fed in public if my baby needed fed, it should never be an issue and folk should never be offended by what is the most natural way to raise a baby.

J.W.

bigots narrow minded you are full of it arnt you lol we are all entitled to our opinion and i personally wouldnt be doing it in public view but if some like to its up to them

R.F.

Yeah but, BOOBS! Like, in public!! OMG!!

Seriously, in this day and age, anyone who has a problem with this should be rounded up and shot... I mean, reeducated.

A.L.

don't think it is illegal in wales, but been a lot of contreversy here in the past, the assembly though has very enlightened attitude to these things. maybe we need an e-petition on behalf of our babies.

Jac.W.

Babies are not machines and can't be forced a bottle or a breast before going somewhere, have you never felt a little peckish when you have gone out.

Richard Frazer

Alan - I thought most people would of said exactly what Jeanette said. Society makes people especially women uncomfortable exposing themselves. Vanity issues and social stigma. I obviously cannot share the feelings but from a male perspective I think men (normal men) would have no issues with any women serving such a natural need.

J.S.E.

Its not a case of "liking to" its a god given right to feed a baby when it has to be fed out or not!

A.L.

its actually a very beautiful sight and not sexual in any way, good luck to any feeding mother i say.

Richard Frazer

There is something wrong if someone finds it sexual. . . but who knows there are some strange people out there

A.L.

don't you just love this site, so next question. when should you start feeding them solids?

Richard Frazer

I have learnt loads from this!

A.L.

yes richard, shocking that in this day and age that there is a need to even discuss this issue.

J.S.E.

‎(o) (o) boobies rule!

A.L.

no jayne, common sense should rule

J.W.

i suppose i was lucky in that my child accepted the bottle as well

Alan J B Wyllie

Jeanette, very fair point.

J.W.

thank you alan

A.L.

night people, may all your little ones sleep quietly all night

J.S.E.

I was just trying to be light hearted...and Jeanette you were lucky and everyone to their own

J.S.E.

Breast bottle, who cares so long as babies get fed when they need it whether in public or not :)

A.C.M.

I was never breast fed once, not even on my first day out of the womb, it was formula everyday for me, I shall ask my mother why though as her reasoning will intrigue me.

R.F.

To be fair to your mother A.C.M., If I were a woman, and I gave birth to you, I'm not sure I'd be comfortable with breast-feeding you.

G.B.

lol@Robin.... My other half tried Breast feeding all of ours but they all ended up on the bottle after a couple of days so didnt breast feed in public, My sisters all Breast fed in public and that was in the 80`s they wouldnt let anyone tell them they couldnt, I cant see a problem with it and would defend any womans ( and childs ) right to feed or be fed anywhere at any time.

G.D.N.

Feel very sorry for those mums! There is nothing worse than listening to your hungry baby scream.

S.F.

I have breastfed both my girls till 22 months and always did it in public but most of the time people were not even aware that I was breastfeeding. How many times did a waiter in a cafe or restaurant ask 'is the baby sleeping?' when she was feeding!

S.F.

When I had my first I was living in Clapham and most mums breastfeed there and it's very common to see them feeding in public!

S.F.

I could not let my baby scream, in fact I would assume that hearing screaming is more anoying for people around me than possibly seeing a bit of soft flesh when I put my baby on the breast??

M.R.

Breast feeding is perfectly natural, and healthy. of course it should be permitted in public. Exactly who should be watching apart from Mum, Baby and possibly Dad?

M.R.R.F.....loving your ideas on re-education.......I would happily re-educate 650 wasters in Westminster!

V.O.

Congratulations Gillian! Hope mum and baby are in good health. As for breastfeeding in public, what on earth does it have to do with anybody else apart from mum and baby?

D.L.

people seem to make things their business that is simply not their business must be they are bored to death with their own choices .....

V.O.

I think too many people like being outraged Dawn, not happy until they'v got someone or something to complain about.

Richard Frazer

Well historically I guess the taboo comes from Victorian prudishness, but any idea why? It would be interesting if it can be pinpointed.

H.A.

I don't know on this one really. All I do know is that when I had babies, I made sure they were fed before I went shopping..

M.C.‎

@ D.L.“people seem to make things their business that is simply not their business must be they are bored to death with their own choices .....”

Going to use that myself, expect it back at some point :Lol

D.L.

I think you are right V.O.some people just like disapproving of others

Richard Frazer

Mick - Perhaps breast feeding is not your business either :p

M.C.

True, never got my tits out in public TBH so cant comment :P

V.O.

Lol at Mick! ^

M.R.

M.C.....stop being a complete moron.......oh, sorry...you can't, can you?

V.W.

Hello mother (J.S.E.) I'm joining the 'party' haahaa. Thought I'd really freak people out and tell them all I'm still breastfeeding my 2yr old......*waits for the 'bitty' comments* pahahaha. I just don't get people at all, they see a calf feeding off a cow in a field and it's all "Awwwww look, how cute is that??" But they see a woman feeding her baby and it's "Urgh good God, how awful" Breasts are far too sexualised!!!! They are there to feed ur child!!!! Jesus, you can't expect a woman in Africa to pop down to bloody Boots for some formula, can you???!! It's the most natural thing in the world. Pfft!

Do you believe that the current time limit that you can have an abortion at is the correct level? - 19th August 2011

2011-12-26T08:14:00.000-08:00

Politics UK

Late Night Question:

The law in the UK makes it legal to have an abortion during the first 24 weeks of pregnancy so long as certain criteria are met.

Do you believe that the current time limit that you can have an abortion at is the correct level?

J.F.

Not at all. It is way too leniant.

M.J.N.

I'm anti-abortion so I don't approve either way.

A.H,

What's wrong with abortion? It should be easy to have an abortion, i can't see how its not a beneficial procedure.

A.C.Mc.

I am pro abortion and I am in favour of the current system.

A.J.B.W.

At 24 weeks, the babies heart and brain functions. Does that not mean anything?

A.P.

Its a womans body,she should be able to do as she wishes

A.T.

I am anti-abortion but I believe there should be a choice. However, unless there is a medical problem or something seriously wrong, I dont see why it should be anymore than 8 weeks and certainly no more than 10. 24 weeks is ok if the woman or baby might die, but it's not acceptable for the simple reason that a woman doesnt want a baby.

A.H,

So? Doesn't mean its a sentient being at that point. Besides, it doesn't know and won't feel anything

J.W.

im anto abortion as i think ive stated before and im pro using a condom there are always exceptions lets face on the fact that a high proportion get rid of babies because they are inconvenient so im pro responsible sex. if a woman is not responsible enough to discuss ccontraception she is to imature to do it. This message should be drummed home so that there are only rare instances of unwanted babies.

J.W.

anti abortions**

J.S.E.

My local hospital will not do them after 12-14 wks without good reason...and that is why it is important to have the 24wk rule, some abnormalities do not show until the later scan as my friend found out,she contracted a virus during pregnancy which sadly made her unborn baby blind and with hardly any brain function she was offered an abortion but decided to go full term, sadly the baby died but at least she had the option.

A.J.B.W.‎

@Alex,

Through different interpretations of accumulating evidence, various scientists have estimated that pain becomes possible anywhere from 18 to 29 weeks into gestation, maybe later.

>http://news.discovery.com/human/fetus-pain-abortion-law.html<

I beg to differ Alex. Many scientist believe that fetus can feel pain from 18 weeks onward.

W.McD.

what I do know about this subject is politics nor religion should be anywhere near it!

J.C.Mc.

Spot on W.McD.

A.J.B.W.

Hallelujah W.McD.!!

Couldn't agree more.

W.McD.

lol Alan

M.J.N.

Why kill an innocent person? If people don't want kids, they should use protection and if they do get pregnant then they should have the baby then it can be adopted by a loving family. This, it won't feel anything and I don't want it attitude is disgraceful. A life is a life.

J.S.E.

I agree.

A.J.B.W.

Rape victims Matthew?

J.B.

I am anti abortion however it should b available but should be more stricter what I find interesting is 2 thirds of women who hfa

D.C.

I'am pro choice, but I believe that if a mother does consider it, she should know all the facts like any finacial support(If the mother feels like she can't afford to look after it) special needs support ect but I think that the 24 weeks is right for the reason J.S.E.gave.

J.B.

Fall* pregnant to rape choose not to abort the pregnancy

M.J.N.

Rape victims should be given the choice, it's not their fault. For people who don't use protection, it is their fault.

A.J.B.W.‎

M.J.N.,

What right have you got to dictate what a woman does with her body?

just asking like?

A.J.B.W.

fault...Have you used condoms? Not 100% safe. Take antibiotic while on the pill and the pill doesn't work...

D.C.

Matthew, what about the thousands of people who have lived in a care home for all their lives because they haven't been adopted?

M.J.N.

Primarily, I don't think the life of a baby should lie in the mother's hands alone, I think the father should have legal powers. I also think that irresponsible people should just be able to kill their baby because it's an inconvenience.

D.C. ‎

*Or live in care homes

A.H,

And, surely, even if a woman doesn't use protection they should be eligible for abortion? If the child is going to be a financial drain and will not be able to grow up in stable conditions, then why should it have to suffer that as opposed to an abortion procedure?

W.McD.

So if its ok to terminate when its not their fault does that also apply if the condom breaks or as can happen the pill or implant doesnt work?

M.J.N.

There are further methods of protection.

W.McD.

I dont agree with your statement M.J.N."kill their baby" its not a baby its a clump of cells.

M.J.N.

It's a living human in early development.

R.R.

At 24 weeks some babys have a chance of life although very very slim , its not just a clump of cells .

W.McD.

nope

J.W.

J.S.E.i agree there are rare instances where a woman should be given the choice such as yours or if her health will suffer or the child she will give birth too would have no quality of life without suffering nobody would wish that

W.McD.

its a clump of cells

D.C.

Matthew, Are you a vegetarian?

15 August at 23:55 · Like

M.J.N.

My only exceptions for abortion are:

- A risk to the mother

- A lack of life quality of the child

W.McD.

which is why Robb we are talking about prior to 24 weeks

M.J.N.

No Dylan, why do you ask?

W.McD.

>http://discovermagazine.com/2005/dec/fetus-feel-pain<

dont worry no pics.

W.McD.

define life quality Matthew

A.J.B.W.

Is the life of the living nor more important than cells that have the potential for

"I also think that irresponsible people "...With that one statement I will withdraw from this debate before I start shouting profenities.

M.J.N.

A life in which one can live to the potential of others i.e. without disabilities which will prevent them doing basic things and enjoying life.

W.McD.

how do you know how much a child will enjoy life and by what criteria do you define enjoying life?

C.H.

I think abortions should be available and seen as okay, not a taboo. Having an unwanted child can never be the right option for anyone, and for that reason I think abortions should be available always, regardless of how developed the fetus ...

J.W.

A clump of cells it may be for the first couple of weeks, but by week 8 their eyes are visible, by week 9 toes are forming, by week 10 the neck is developing, week 11 the genitals develop and week 12 fingernails start to grow. Not quite that clump of cells you're talking about.

M.J.N.

Medical professionals can generally determine abnormal development in the baby. Too enjoy life is exactly what it say, to do what they enjoy in life.

D.C. ‎

@ M.J.N.As you have said, you are against abortions unless risk to Mother and quality of life, which I understand. But surly eating eggs is like abortion because the babies are killed so we can eat them. They aren't aborted for medical issues or anything else. Doesn't your view on abortions make this wrong?

M.J.N.

I'm not a lover of eggs to be honest Dylan. The reference doesn't really click for me though because it's not really abortion. It's the following of a food chain, it's nature whearas abortion, to me, isn't.

J.S.E.

Can I just say that no woman or girl pops in for an abortion willy-nilly you are counselled before the procedure and it is a huge decision to actually go ahead for most women.

J.W.

thats why you use contraception charli if you have half a brain

W.McD.

J.W.we are all just clumps of cells the more important part is, is it a human being?

C.H.

Lol.

Chicken eggs aren't fertilised. It's not the food chain either. It's just commodification of animals and institutionalised oppression ^_^

J.W.

people who are pro abortion other than the exceptions as outlined rape danger to health or the babiy has no quality of life should be made to see what happens to the clump of cells i bet that will change your mind how brutal those doctors can be during an abortion

W.McD.

M.J.N.if your concerned about quality of life you should go see the quality of life of the thousands of children waiting to be adopted living in the care system.

M.J.N.

W.McD., essentially adults are just clumps of cells too.

M.J.N.

At least they have a life in which they can do things and have to potential to do what they enjoy.

W.McD.

I did just post that M.J.N.:) about us all being clumps of cells.

J.W.

A baby heart beat is visible on an ultrasound from 7 weeks. It has a working heart I would classify that as being human.

W.McD.

have you read the link I posted? about brain development in a foetus?

W.McD.

Matthew, children coming through the care system in general have a lower quality of life due to that fact alone.

W.McD.

Dead bodies kept on life supvort have a beating heart it doesnt make them alive

M.P.

I think it should probably stay as it is but I do wonder why women decide to have such a late abortion. Most women know when they're pregnant and know the answer to whether they want a child. So why wait so long? Is it medical reasons for most? There will always be exceptions of course the people who are totally unaware for whatever reason but they're also likely to be quite vulnerable so an option needs to be kept open for them. I feel the time limit should be if the foetus can't survive outside the mother without significant medical intervention then it's not yet a life. which is at around that 24 week time. most babies that have survived before that age have needed significant medical intervention and continue to do so for the rest of their lives at great emotional, physical and financial cost to themselves and their family, that's not to say that some life is not worth living but would i choose that life for me or a loved one if there was another option? No i wouldn't as i believe that essence of a person would arise elsewhere instead.

S.B-R.F.

Definitely Pro Choice. I think the 24 week level is the correct one.

Some women may not realise they are pregnant for several months, should these women be penalised?

A reduction in the time limit would also reduce choice, and risk pushing women who are agonising over whether to continue their pregnancy into making a decision to terminate it before she has definitely decided that that is what she wants to do. Finally access to abortion services may not be as quick as one may want, thus pushing some one over the 24 week level.

A.J.B.W.

Gonna back up ma missus W.McD.Macdonald..Ive got to otherwise she will batter me

"By three weeks of conceiving, the brain cells begin to form at the tip of the embryo. This tube expands and it matures to form spinal cord.

After that, the tube forms the brain. The brain cells or the neurones get developed in a slow process and the neurones begin to make contacts with each other.

At this stage, the brain cells mature very quickly and nearly 250,000 cells grow in your child's brain a minute.

The growing rate decreases after a certain time when the brain makes itself ready to handle more than 40 systems. The slowdown takes place usually after the 20th week.

The brain development of the foetus is almost complete when your baby reaches the age of 6 months in your womb.

:-)

A baby doesn't have a life support though, their heart is working by itself no machinery involved.

A.J.B.W

.did you read the link I posted?

A.J.B.W.

Yeah mate I did, I posted a very similar but saying that the CAN feel pain by the 18th week in this thread. Both links from Discovery but stating different facts.

My personal belief. The child is alive when (s)he has been born. Until then it is potential. I actually pretty much agree with you Wiliam.

J.W.

sue if they used a condom they wouldnt be in that position thats the pro choice

W.McD.‎

"very sad W.McD."?

W.McD.

huh?

W.McD.

Yes J.W.it is beating on its own but a beating heart is a beating heart it perforns the same function wether plugged into a machine or not.

W.McD.

J.W.condoms are not perfect they break

the pill isnt 100% guaranteed either.

How about getting an implant and using a condom? The chances of failure then are basically zero.

My friends babies heart beat for 2 whole years after his birth but he had no brain function at all.

That is so sad.

she was offered an abortion but chose (bravely) to go full term...not all women are that brave and fair play to them its a tough call.

abortion should be available only during the period where the child concerned is unable to develop into healthy human life. there is of course the conflict between the rights of the unborn child versus the rights of a human mother but to my mind when a child can be said to be scientifically human and not just a collection of cells then abortion should only be available in circumstances where if to continue to term would be to the detriment of the mother's health.

there is another area where this can get complicated that being where the mother is adamant about having an abortion but the father is not. here it isn't necessarily about raising the child but the fear of going to full term. in those circumstances i don't think an abortion should be available. abortion should be available only to protect the health of the mother not a last minute means of contraception.

HOWEVER: this is something over which there is no moral consensus and so should be left to the individual to decide as much as possible.

A.P.

Well religion stays out of it,how something so irrelevant today can have so much say is beyond me,Catholic church is anti abortion,and also anti contraception,well you cant have it both ways..just dont think men should be telling women what do do..Cameron blaming single parent families for societies ills isnt helpful..maybe they should have just all had abortions and done us all a favour..

G.D-N.

Always depends on the criteria and the circumstances, there is nothing cut and dried which is why legislation is a rubbish way of approaching the topic. It is between the woman, her doctor and the father if he is in the picture, NOT government!

...and what rights do prospective fathers have in the case of terminations? What rights does the baby have about whether it wants to be born into a life that could be full of struggle and unhappiness, I wonder...

No one in my opinion should tell a woman she should go through with an unwanted pregnancy, no matter WHAT the circumstances of the comception. She is the one who has to go through the 9 months of pregnancy; go through the labour and birth and childcare for x number of years and in many cases shoulder the burden alone as a single parent for many reasons. i.e. domestic violence, divorce, widowhood, and yes teenage pregnancy. I work with young people and have known of some of them who have acted responsibly and used contraception and still became pregnant. I have also seen cases of young people being cohersed against their will into going through with the pregnancy and seeing it all fall apart with them not coping and the child/ren being taken into care through lack of support from the statutory service. I think we have all read of cases in the media of terrible child abuse/murder of children by parents unfit to have children. We have also read in the media of the dreadful cases of child abuse of children in care. My body My Choice everytime :)

Did Labour's immigration policies "screw(ed)" the British working class.- 30th June 2011

2011-12-24T13:20:00.000-08:00

Politics UK

Quite Simply- Did Labour's immigration policies "screw(ed)" the British working class.

Roger Daltrey, lead singer of The Who, has blamed cheap labour from eastern Europe for the decline of the British working class.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/labour/8606748/Roger-Daltrey-how-Labours-immigration-policies-screwed-the-British-working-class.html

M.R.

could it be the international bankers?

M.R.

the uk just like here has a large % of gdp from financial instruments i.e. a bunch of crap www.youtube.com/watch?v=vY4VZr8Ox94

end the fed

M.R.

its always easy to blame thing on the poor and weak

B.H.

Is it actually possible to have any thread in which bankers are not demonised and held resopnsible for all the evils in the world? I await the claim that they developed the AIDS virus as part of their plan for world domination.

S.O.

And the political opinions - at least, the anti-Labour ones - of an ageing multi-milllionaire rock star carry this much weight in The Telegraph? Thanks to PoliticsUK's persistent use of their 'stories', I can now see that the notion The Telegraph is one of the "quality" newspapers is a laughable one.

M.R.

bayer made aids, and heroin and zycokln-b

S.O.

Come off it B.H., if people moaning about them on the internet is the worst they'll have to face - and it seems it is - then they've got off lightly.

M.R.

formerly now as ig farben responsible for 25% of german munition, thats how papa bush made his money, jewish slaves , perscot bush and NY Saving and loan scandel, look it up

M.R.

off with their heads

M.R.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=vY4VZr8Ox94

K.N.

this just proves why ageing rock stars should stick to sunning themselves on their desert islands instead of peddling unfounded inflammatory, racist jibberish like this...the decline of the british working class was heralded by Thatcher's deliberate ideology to systematically deconstruct Britain's manufacturing base

B.H.

Why bankers should be solely responsible for the flood of cheap labour is beyond me. Greedy workers and militant unions pushing up wages and pricing British workers out of the M.C.et has nothing to do with it then?

S.O.

B.H., so greed wasn't encouraged by our Governments at any point in recent history and the salaries accrued by bankers didn't put them at the forefront of the greed movement? A more holistic appraisal would be beneficial.....

B.H.

Greed has been ever-present and universal. It didn't need government to encourage it. Why the hell should bankers be regarded as more greedy than anyone else?

S.O.

B.H., please spare me the cod philosophy, it's completely irrelevant and besides, just your opinion. You brought greed into this - not me. I merely turned your argument on its head.

The financial industry's reckless unregulated behaviour largely got us into this mess. This happened because Governments unleashed the reins suppressing and controlling the level of greed you might argue. Either way, it's academic - it's completely understandable why bankers have garnered such a bad name in the current climate.

B.H.

Bit rich for an exponent of crap philosophy to accuse me of 'cod' philosophy. Why is it irrelevant in a discussion of why British workers were losing out to cheaper foreign labour? In any event, you seem to be wandering away from the subject since British workers have been losing out to immigrant labour for a long time - pre-dating the banking crisis by a long way.

S.O.

Because it's your opinion B.H. that we are all driven by greed, and exceptionally arrogantly put forth too. The more likely truth is that we all possess it to varying degrees, and in some of us it is rather tempered further by qualities such as empathy and contentment.

It's completely irrelevant your moaning that bankers are taking the brunt of the blame, not least because - well - it basically is the fault of their industry and the half-wits who deregulated it. It's also irrelevant because at no point was I blaming the bankers for immigration - that was someone else.

Oh I was wandering away from the subject was I? Oh there was me, thinking that was indeed where you started at...

B.H.

It isn't just my opinion about the universality of human greed - its a key tenet of economic theory as well. It may be tempered by the qualities you mention, but it is often masked by sheer hypocrisy as well. As you say, someone else blamed 'international bankers' which led to my initial comment and I have been asking why anyone should conclude that. So, we agree that the bankers are not responsible, so who is? I have set out my explanation and await your with bated breath.

I.J.

Bit simplistic to be honest. Immigration has generally been a good think filling vacancies in the skilled and in-skilled jobs M.C.et that UK workers either cannot or won't fill.

I agree that yet more banker bashing on this issue is misplaced.

S.O.

B.H., we don't exactly agree, no - it's plainly obvious why the bankers have become the dog people love to kick. Seemingly not to you, but I'm not sure why - they don't need or warrant defending. Those most responsible have nothing more than public reproachment to live with, when a more just response would have seen criminal proceedings.

I will of course point out that the average human wouldn't consider themselves 'greedy', or at least not reprehensibly so, and that the word is negative by connotation. Ergo, it follows to me that there's a distinction to be made when using the word and you're not making it.

M.C.

Maybe successive governments abandonment of the working class led to decline in their employability, hence the need for better skilled working class people from abroad.

S.O.

Immigration was encouraged by successive Governments, Conservative and Labour. Simple as that. On the surface it's "a problem", but that's just lip service to the greater electorate. As always it's not what they say that counts but what they do - and they do nothing at all about it.

B.H.

I am not seeking to defend bankers S.O. merely arguing that to make them scapegoats for all our economic ills is plain wrong. Of course people don't like to consider themselves greedy (call them 'self-interested' if you prefer), but hypocrisy is an equally strong human trait.

S.F.

I actually think B.H. has got a point when saying... " pushing up wages and pricing British workers out of the M.C.et ".

Indeed I think some wages were completely unsustainable hence a re-balancig of the job M.C.et with more 'realistic demands'.

It makes me sound like a right winger but I am not being funny: builders, plumbers and the likes of them were really taking the piss! I am quite happy to have an immigrant plumber who 'only' charge 30 quids an hour!!

B.H.

M.C.: that is wrong. It is the unskilled worker places that are being filled in large part by immigrant workers. Immigration was imdeed encouraged in the 50's, but it is now a problem and is completely out of control - the more so due to EU membership.

30 June at 11:46 · Like · 1

M.C.

compulsory living wages would be a good start.

S.O.

Then why argue about it B.H.? Sheesh.... I quite agree with you, it's a pointless contribution to the thread.

As for greed, if you believe it's inherent to humans as you do, then it becomes relative - and in that respect, we talk about 'greed' in the sense that it deviates from a more normative level. Hypocrisy is evident in us all too, so again we make relative judgements of it.

S.F.

There are 2 types of immigration.

And I would say that loads of highly skilled migrants have also come to London, I know a few foreign bankers, engineers and senior executives on loads on money but this is specific to Londo, and they are not all from the EU.

And I am not even mentioning all the doctors and nurses directly recruited abroad as a means of saving on trainng/ education costs.

B.H.

S.O.: I was arguing because that accusation had been made on this thread. As for what a 'normative level' of greed is or means I am not sure.

M.W.

How much do you suggest as a compulsory living wage M.C.?

B.H.

S.F., there are many motives for immigration, but I think that Daltrey was concerned mainly with unskilled/semi-skilled jobs. Many foreign executives are in temporary UK posts rather than immigrants.

S.F. ‎

"Daltrey was concerned mainly with unskilled/semi-skilled jobs."

I know, I am putting things into pespective.

Also highly skilled migration is not necessarily on a temporary basis. Actually the 2 persons I know who make the most money are foreign, a Japanse banker and a senior executive at Ernst and Young from Madagascar. Since they are both maried to British citizens for years, they are in it for a long time!!

I also know unskilled migrants who left the country upon losing their job due to the recession.

If we want to talk about migration, there are lots of aspects to consider and it is a very complex subject!

S.F.
Matthew

I think £8.20 an hour has been suggested for London

M.W.

Why not make it £50?

B.H.

I don't see why 'ageing' rock stars shouldn't voice a political opinion. It isn't completely unfounded or necessarily inflammatory. Nor is it racist since many immigrants are from parts of Europe and of the same race (however, I note your ageist comment: would it be OK for him to comment if he was a young rock star?). Britains 'manufacturing base' was on its last legs when Thatcher came to power and propped up by massive government subsidies. She didn't destroy it as let it die a natural death.

S.F.

Anyway, the biggest threat is not the immigrants themselves but the British tolerance! So many Brits keep marrying immigrants and are the ones who ultimately are making this country truly multi cultural! Most of my Ukrainian Japanese, French, Italian are married to brits!!

Personally I love multicultarism and love the way London is a true cosmopolitan city!

B.H.

Enjoy the massive crime rate as well, do you S.F.?

S.O.

There's nothing wrong with 'ageing' rock stars having a political opinion at all B.H. - but he's just one of many who are not in the political game with an opinion, so why report his like it has some Earth-shattering significance? It doesn't, and the last place I'd expect to read it is in a so-called 'quality' newspaper.

M.W.

No takers for a £50 an hr compulsory living wage? Everyone would be able to afford lots of stuff then wouldn't we?

B.H.

Not in the 'political game'? He's a UK citizen isn't he and therefore entitled to voice an opinion. Is it his fault that the media decide to publish it?

S.O.

Oh I see B.H. - immigrants and crime! Before immigration, the UK was a utopian land of milk and honey....

Spare me. Immigration does bring a criminal element with it, absolutely no doubt, but I can't be doing with those who talk of the two in the same breath. There's a sensible argument to be had on immigration, but to coat it in such negative light makes it impossible.

R.S.

Yes, undoubtedly, and no, i'm not a bigot or racist.

S.O.

WTF is your problem exactly B.H.? Have you swallowed the same curmugedon pills as Mick - albeit this time the whole bottle?

I was rather making the point that there's no good chuffing reason why his opinion should form a 'news' 'story' in a so-called 'quality' paper. Is there anything else you're having trouble reading? As for your disapproval of me pointing out he's not in the political game, I award you the year's most flatulent use of pedantry to date. Again, it's relativity you're having problems with - yes, he's a UK citizen, but there are many of them. His fame and fortune doesn't make his opinion more relevant or wothy than anybody else's. The point I was making was quite obvious.

R.S.

What has he got to lose from saying what he said seeing as he's so rich and famous? Exactly - nada! What he said is quite true.

S.O.

That's got chuff all to do with what I'm saying R.S.. Jesus, some on this board do not have a functioning head on them today....

What he's said is probably debatable. What's certainly debatable is putting the blame fair and square on Labour. Far as I'm concerned, both parties are full of it.

B.H.

I agree that there's no good reason why Daltrey's opinion should form a news story, but is it his fault? Is it the media's, or is it the public's who lap it up? However, in our celebrity-obsessed society that's the way it is. Get over it.

S.O.

B.H., firstly, at no juncture did I suggest it was 'his fault' - so you know what you can do with that redundant point. Secondly, I did state several times that this is not what I'd expect to see in a 'quality' newspaper - see, that there's a distinction. Any time you wish to read what I write, rather than read into it something you can disagree with, would be appreciated.

The fact is you're one of those people lapping it up. Get over yourself and your inflated ego.

R.S.

I agree S.O. both parties are to blame, but after what - 15 years or so of Liebour rule and no offer of a referendum on the EU (unless I missed it)....Labour should have tackled immigration many moons ago. Instead they alienated their own core voters.

R.S.

And now if anybody even mentions the word 'immigration' - they're classed as racist or bigoted.

R.S.

‎(remember Gordon brown with that 'bigoted Duffy woman' who approached him regarding immigration)

R.S.

S.O. why the need for the insults? Aren't left wingers supposed to promote tolerance? lol

R.S.

‎(and peace)

B.H.

Just what is your problem S.O.? Are their any 'quality' papers left these days? If you don't like it, don't buy the paper and read it, FFS.

R.S.

Unless it's a paper 'promoting' immigration then it's not a quality newspaper, init! Let's all stick to the Indy eh. ;)

R.S.

Unfortunately due to the benefit culture (perhaps), many Brits have lost the work ethic. Problem is unless they are FORCED to work and immigrants are forced to go home - leaving their jobs behind, said Brits will never get that work ethic back. Catch 22

S.O.

I'm not a left-winger R.S.. WTF are you on about - that anyone who mentions the word 'immigration' is classed as a racist or a bigot? Nobody on this thread did mention it - so why have you, not once but twice? If you have to start with such a disclaimer, then you're doing a good job of arousing suspicions that you are one.

Sorry B.H., your cantankerous curmudgeonly belligerent know-all tone kind of invites bringing you down a peg or fifty. Happy to oblige. Is there something untoward about suggesting I'd expect better of a so-called 'quality' newspaper? No, is there ballbags - but you seem to have managed to do your best to make it so. Thanks for telling me that if I don't like it, I don't have to buy it - I'd never have known without your help.

S.O.

R.S., you're doing a very good job of saying all the things a modern racist does. This isn't the thread for it - are you obsessed?

B.H.

I think you need to examine your own 'tone' S.O.. If you want to grouse about 'quality papers' and their content, feel free, but I fail to see what there is to debate about.

S.O.

Oh I tend to match the 'tone' of those who post to me B.H.. I did a good job there, I think.

Thanks, I did feel free - as you surely noticed. Again, you manage only to state the obvious.

R.S.

Because S.O. indeed I have encountered it on the 'Nobody likes a Tory' page in the past. It makes one a lil bit 'defensive'.

R.S.

Do you know many 'modern racists' S.O.? What is a 'modern racist'? Is it a member of the fascist UAF?

B.H.

A 'wonderful job' eh? Round of applause for S.O....

R.S.

B.H., please spare me the cod philosophy, it's completely irrelevant and besides, just your opinion. You brought greed into this - not me. I merely turned your argument on its head.

S.O. please forgive me but I think you are the one who started with the 'tone'.

R.S.

Ii was infact banned from the 'Nobody likes a Tory' page, lol, and accused of being a Tory, which i'm not. So much to leftist freedom of speech.

S.O.

To the point R.S., whereby the only person who discusses or even hints at discussing immigration and racism/bigotry in tandem is you - not once, but twice? Very strange defensive posture that is. Perhaps if you didn't feel the need to bang on about how you're not racist but....., nobody would actually think that.

S.O.

Hello R.S., you're not one of those weird fake accounts that plagues this site are you? Funnily enough, they always seem to be hardcore Tories or BNP apologists. Can never figure out why that is...

Fascist UAF eh? Guffaw. So, you're overly pre-occupied with 'lefties' curtailing the very Universe itself, immigration and possessing a massive chip on your shoulder about freedom of expression (which is exactly what you're practicing now, but don't seem to appreciate it). Now I know you're in the aforementioned category....

S.O.

B.H., it was a 'good job' not a 'wonderful job'. Like I said, you don't read what's infront of you, you instead read into it. Cheer up :)

R.S.

Because, S.O. as I have just explained - anybody thesedays who mentions even the slightest little thing about immigration are automatically accused of being racist. So I just thought I would get that point across before anybody did mention it. Did you not see my comment about the poor old 'bigoted' Mrs Duffy? It seems that we cannot have a discussion these days without people being accused of being racist, and that card is wearing pretty thin.

S.F. ‎

"Enjoy the massive crime rate as well, do you S.F.?"

Can you show me figures linking crime and immigration please?

I remember 2 crimes since I have in the UK, both happened 5 mn away from my home (I moved in between) the first one one was a gay crime done on the Clapham Common, a Polish G.T.was the victim and beaten to death. Another happened last year in my new area where an English G.T.stabbed to death his white English middle class parents...

If we want to talke about immigration, the debate needs to be non partisan and needs a thorough relexion not easy red hearings!

R.S.

The only thing that is fake S.O. is my second name, it's Smith, not Smithio. As for the rest of it -make whatever assumptions you please.

S.O.

The reason why you mentioned it first, and for no good reason (and then again, a second time, despite nobody mentioning it) R.S. is to try and dilute any accusations made further down the line that you might be veering toward a racist/bigoted opinion. You seem to be unhealthily pre-occupied with it.

R.S.

BNP? lmao @ that.

R.S.

And now all of a sudden our S.O. is the psychologist. Well you proved me right then S.O. as the accusations are already out. lol

S.F. ‎

"Labour should have tackled immigration many moons ago"

Why? 1-Why is immigration bad?

2-How exactly?

3- Are you aware the UK has nearly as many emigrants as immigrants?

S.O.

Well R.S., if I had to assume anything, your pre-occupations strongly hint at BNP (or similar) sympathies. Nobody else calls the UAF 'fascists' (which is a bit pot kettle black!). In fact, most people don't mention the UAF at all. Very very odd.

R.S.

I have an opinion on immigration which is neither racist or bigoted. But as predicted you're doing a 'Gordon Brown' on me. Well done....brafeckinvo.

S.F.

Anyway aren't most of the BNP members ex-labourites?

M.W.

Lol! S.O. likes to accuse people of having fake profiles when he can't provide a sensible counter argument. If you get really lucky he will block you next.

S.F. ‎

"I have an opinion on immigration which is neither racist or bigoted."

Can we have it please so we can debate the actual subject!

B.H.

Whoo-hoo racist witch-hunt. Tally ho!!

S.O.

No R.S., that's what you intended for me to do - the fact is, as I stated, you're displaying very similar pre-occupations to other posters who've contributed here who supported the BNP. There is a pattern. I did not however, state that it was so - merely, that if I had to assume....I don't know why it's proving so difficult for people to read what is written today, and not what they'd prefer it to say?

The only truth here is that immigration in tandem with racism/bigotry was introduced to this topic by you, and you alone.

B.H.

If it was £50, I wonder what the skilled worker would demand?

R.S.

UAF use the same tactics the Nazi's did against the jews. That's why they're fascist. I'm not BNP, more a modern Conservative than anything.

R.S.

I merely raised the words because in recent discussions on other pages (because I'm anti MASS immigration), the word has been used against me.

B.H.

Wow! All thes 'likes' I am a popular boy today! (at least on this thread lol).

R.S.

Because you speak common sense, B.H..

M.C.

Matthew, a living wage varies on locality. In London it stands at about £8 per hour for example.

R.S.

S.F., near to where I live there's been quite a bit of crime related to immigration.

B.H.‎

*takes a bow, blushing slightly*

S.O.

They're all coming from extreme right-wingers B.H.. Nik etc...

R.S., I know very little about the UAF actually. Still think it very odd you brought that up. Still find it very odd you brought the immigration/racist angle at all - let alone mentioned it a second time. Pretty weird IMO.

S.F. ‎

"S.F., near to where I live there's been quite a bit of crime related to immigration."

Such as? We need more than rumours!

S.O.

N.b. yes sorry R.S., forgot to mention that's what the BNP say about the UAF - pot kettle black!

B.H.

S.O.: aren't right wingers entitled to their views, or is only extreme left wingers that are?

S.F.

Can we discuss the views before discussing whether we are entitled to them?

I do not read much of a debate in here!

S.O.

B.H., is it a slow day upstairs today? All I'm doing is pointing out where your popularity stems from. I personally don't like extremists of any persuasion. I am not, and have not been suggesting anybody is disbarred from their views.

S.F. ‎

" I am a popular boy today"

B.H., it might be because there's only one S.O. on this thread and he's nof from S.O.land?!lol

S.F.

And I love my Scottish friends mind you!

B.H.

So are you suggesting that entitlement to any particular view depends a priori on what that view is?

R.S.

Well, I don't want to give away where I live, but recently a man was beaten to death by 4 immigrants because he was sticking up for a woman who they were harassing.

R.S.

Not a BNP rhetoric S.O. UAF are new age communists, which is basically old fashioned fascism with a different face and just as dangerous. If you weigh them both up there really isn't a lot of difference between the two.

They both believe in stifling free speech. They both believe in the use of violence against any who do not subscribe to their views. They both believe in using people's fears to promote their ideology.

M.C.

Immigrants are just an easy scapegoat for what are more complex issues. The Nazi propaganda machine showed the extent to which that can go. Yes issues need resolving that immigration can exacerbate, but they are by no means a key source of the problems. For that, and as uncomfortable as it can be, we need to look far closer to home for solutions.

R.S.

Hence that's why they're just as fascist as the rest of the fascists.

S.F. ‎

" UAF are new age communists, which is basically old fashioned fascism with a different face and just as dangerous."

Whaaaooo R.S. you're scary, I think you just really and truly gave yourself away and now I also think you're a fake and a troll.

R.S.

Agreed, they are not the sole source, but they do put extra unecessary strain on the public sector jobs that are suffering.

S.F.

R.S., you keep clicking like on everybody's coments when they clearly are contradicting each other... ...

S.F.

and again, lol

R.S.

Trying to get rid of me S.F.?

R.S.‎

;-)

R.S.

I guess I'm just one big contradiction S.F. :)

S.F. ‎

"they are not the sole source, but they do put extra unecessary strain on the public sector jobs that are suffering."

Have you ever thougt migrants pay taxes and create wealth and are entitled to use the UK public services?

Have you thought of your few millions emigrants who put an unecessary strain on other's public sectors??

S.F.

I guess so

G.T.

So the head of the C of E says the government cuts are causing stress to the working class and that's his legal right to hold an opinion and how it is ok for a non political entity to comment. Daltry does and now it isn't ok for him to voice opinion. Double standards from the labour camp.

R.S.

S.F., other countries such as the US do not have the NHS....so how are emigrants putting strain on similar countries? I am not against immigration S.F., I am against mass uncontrolled unskilled immigration. Most British emigrants usually go with money in their back pocket, unlike many immigrants who come here without a job or money in their back pockets. Perhaps migrants who come here should pay Health Insurance?

S.O.

R.S.,

It's also BNP PR that has labelled the UAF 'new age communists' - in fact, you're pretty much para-phrasing their anti-UAF press. I've just been reading some - also says they use the same tactis as the Nazis did against the Jews. Which is what you wrote in a previous post. Very odd....

You'll enjoy this video. I did, it's hilarious! From the substandard quality of the English language, to the disturbed paranoia of their rants and the so-called 'independent reports' which are never substantiated as being independent at all. Aimed at the dumber BNP member then (that's pretty much the lot)....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TNKH7gap4qA

R.S.

If I went abroad to work or for a holiday, I would be required to buy my own health insurance.

S.O.

What Planet are you on Guy? Come down to Planet Earth anytime you fancy. I don't think anybody has made any such claim on this thread? Who is in the 'Labour camp'? It certainly ain't me!

R.S.

What camp are you S.O.? It's not nice being accused of being in a certain camp is it? When you know yourself that you're not in said camp.

S.F. ‎

"If I went abroad to work or for a holiday, I would be required to buy my own health insurance."

Not in the EU.

"so how are emigrants putting strain on similar countries?"

500,000 Brits in France use the better french health system

S.F. ‎

"Most British emigrants usually go with money in their back pocket, unlike many immigrants who come here without a job or money in their back pockets"

Untrue, i've just showed above that loads of immigrants who come in the UK are highly skilled and create wealth!

Unbelievable that British immigrants are good but all others are bad?!!

R.S.

so you're telling me I don't need travel insurance when I go to Spain S.F.?

30 June at 14:40 · Like

R.S.

Also S.F., the US is not a similar country to France or the UK, the US doesn't have an NHS.

S.F.

I am Brit and I am still entitled to go in any other country when I want, as and howIi want because I am superior!!! but any other human being who is unlucky enough not to be a Brit actually cannot come to my country...

Inconsistant?! Who cares!!!!

R.S.

You are a fake, a troll and are spout the BNP dogma! End of!

R.S.

And Australia doesn't have an NHS either I believe.....

R.S.

Whatever......

S.F.

G.T.he guy has the right to give his opinion and actually quite a few working class people indeniably feel this way.

Now we can still try to deconstruct the cliches surrounding migrations and show that it is a complex subject!

R.S.

But let's put it this way....if I were BNP why would I be so afraid to admit it????? lol. This is Politics!

S.O.

R.S., was that an attempt to make yourself unreadable by inserting the word 'camp' too many times?

FFS, this is tedious. I'm totally opposed to partisan politics - I must point this out half a dozen times every fortnight. But, because I don't hold any particularly strong right-wing views and because I don't enjoy stereotyping and/or slating/blaming disparate groups of people (whom I mostly don't know) then somebody is actually dumb enough to categorise me as Labour? I hate Labour. I hate the Conservatives. I think people who still believe in blind partisan loyalty to either, or who think the two are opposite ends of the political spectrum, aren't paying enough attention.

S.F.

Travel insurance and health insurance are different.

> http://www.nhs.uk/NHSEngland/Healthcareabroad/EHIC/Pages/Introduction.aspx <

S.O.

I don't know R.S. - because most people think they are pea-brained knuckle-dragging halfwits?

R.S.

WTF?

R.S.

You don't enjoy stereotyping? Lol. You already stereotyped me

30 June at 14:45 · Like

R.S.‎

"I hate Labour. I hate the Conservatives. I think people who still believe in blind partisan loyalty to either, or who think the two are opposite ends of the political spectrum, aren't paying enough attention."

For once I agree with you.

M.C.

G.T.no, I don't think anyone is saying he shouldn't have made those comments. Although I do think he's got the wrong end of a lot of sticks, it's good he made the comments, it's good we're having this debate.

Unnecessary bigotry and accusations of racism aside, issues relating to immigration do need sorting out, we're just putting too much responsibility on one group of often voiceless people, i.e. an easy scapegoat. Blaming immigrants is exactly what this and previous governments want us to do, it lets them get away with their negligence.

S.F.

The fact is R.S. that millions of British chose to go to countries where they can use their health system such as France , there has also been a scandal a few years ago about some Brits frauding the French benefit system.

Migrations go both ways, problems cut both ways!

M.C.

And we really do need to be careful not to lose sight of the great influence immigrants do and have had on our economy, language, culture, food, etc...

S.O.

R.S., I did nothing of the sort, and told you so once before already. Do you think if you repeat a lie enough if it'll stick? I merely pointed out, that if I was to make an assumption of your political leanings.....

And that would be down to you and the topics you've chosen and the words you've chosen to use.

Having since used the exact same terminology about the UAF that I've only ever seen before in BNP and EDL PR campaigns, you're not exactly going the right way of persuading me otherwise.

R.S.

That's just your paranoia though S.O..

R.S.

I am sure many people come out with similar quotes to others from different groups but it doesn't mean they're 'in their gang'.

R.S.

And S.F. that's not my fault that British folk choose to go live in France.

R.S.

I choose to live here....where is the hypocrisy?

S.O.

Paranoia? - you're only demonstrating you don't understand what it means. In what way is that paranoia? I'm making logical deductions, you should try to do likewise.

Sorry R.S., you are using EXACTLY the same terms as the BNP/EDL. Almost nobody else but groups of that type even give a flying one about the UAF. Most people don't even know what the UAF is. Seems very very odd that you have such an interest and that you should have ever mentioned it.

M.C.

I certainly hadn't heard of the UAF before and I like to think I'm pretty well informed.

R.S.

I know who the UAF ate S.O. because I know who the EDL are and I oppose both parties because they are extremists with extremist views, as are the MDL. So having said knowledge automatically makes me one of said groups does it? I think not.

R.S.

‎*are

R.S.

Therefore, seeing as you know who the UAF are - I take it you have had dealings with many BNP'ers ad UAF'ers before? Seeing as you know their terminology so well.

R.S.

And I don't think you give 'most people' enough credit for being aware of these people.

S.O.

I think I do R.S.. The UAF is not a party. Nor for that matter is the EDL.

Sorry, it seems odd that you should be paraphrasing BNP/EDL PR on the UAF. Say what you like, I don't care, because it does.

Would you like me to call you a racist or something R.S.? Seems to me that you actually want someone to call you one. Certainly started out like that, and have continued much the same....

R.S.

I would think that anyone who knows the slightest thing about politics would know who the UAF are and who they are supported by. I don't suppose then that many would know who 'hope not hate' are? Anyway, I digress from the topic of immigration. That is what we were discussing, wasn't it? Or are we now discussing the make-up of what a racist is?

R.S.

Why take my words 'parties' so literal S.O.? You knew what I meant, but if you wish to nit pick, next time i shall choose my words more wisely.

R.S.

You're the one calling me BNP S.O. therefore I think you have indirectly already insinuated that I am racist. Simply for having knowledge of what I think the UAF are. We all know what the BNP are anyway.

R.S.

Next you'll be accusing me of being Nik!! Lol

S.O.

If only you'd took that approach from the off R.S..

I think you're wrong re: the UAF, and regardless it would be an amazing coincidence for you to be using the same words about them as the BNP! Why choose to knock the UAF when you could have chosen the BNP, the EDL etc? Might have been a better policy than the old I'm-not-a-racist-but school.....

M.C.

I'm well aware of "Hope not hate", long may they continue their work against bigotry.

R.S.

They're all a bunch of extremist tossers S.O. and I will be honest - in my younger days I was extremely naive and I would have supported some BNP or EDL views. Good job I became a little wiser. Perhaps that is why you think I'm of BNP leaning? A modern conservative couldn't be more different. I support immigration, I love multi-culture, however I do not see what benefit the recent influx of immigration has brought us. So, that's where I stand on it now.

R.S.

My pre-emptive defensivness perhaps comes from the insults I have recieved, whenever I have had the displeasure of discussing immigration with ultra leftists who think immigration can do no harm whatsoever.

S.O.

As opposed to those who think it can do nothing but harm...

I don't think you're going to get anywhere with such a defensive posture oddly enough.

R.S.

Yes, exactly.

I don't wish to get anywhere, I just feel the need to pre-empt any negativity towards percieved bigotry - before the real accusations fly. (as they so often do, regrettably)

M.C.

R.S., what's different about the "recent influx" that makes them not worthy of support?

M.R.

Daltrey is wrong......he is ignorant and stupid.........immigration and emmigration are healthy, it allows people with different skills to find jobs if they are in a position to be mobile......any Government, given the issues regarding the ongoing funding of Public Services would be remiss not to recognise the opportunity presented by hundreds of thousands of young transient economic migrants who would be able to pay taxes and spend in the UK whilst not presenting a long-term drain on the Welfare State....and remember, where there is "abuse" by paying under the minimum wage, it is British Employers who are doing it......perhaps we should be blaming them?

S.O.

If only the chain-gang antics of many UK employment agencies were more widely publicised, it'd put a different complexion on the popular right-wing theory that immigrants come over here, are showered with scores of generous benefits and live the life of Riley...

B.H.

But what about the many migrants who are not in work and have no skills? Who pay no taxes yet enjoy benefits. Payment below the minimum wage may be carried out by employers in Britain, but why must they be British employers? What about foreign people-traffikers at work here?

R.S.

I'm not saying they're not worthy M.C., I'm saying the numbers are unjustified.

M.C.

B.H....people trafficking is illegal......anyone conducting such activities should simply be treated as criminals.....

R.S.

Doesn't immigration drive wages down lower? More competition for the employers?

B.H.

So what about the left-wing theory that every immigrant contributes immense benefit to the UK, hardly ever claims benefits and never commits a crime?

M.R.

By the sound of the article they must have given Daltrey a bottle of whisky to drink and then shoved a microphone under his nose.....its just a stupid rambling rant.......maybe tickets aren't going so well?

30 June at 16:05 · Like · 1

M.R.

B.H.......which left wing source are you paraphrasing?

M.R.

R.S......Wages can be driven down where there is a surplus of a particular skill.......or where one section of the labour M.C.et are willing to work for a lower wage whilst another section maintain they are worth more......but no employer should be paying less than the minmum wage...

G.T.

The jobs traditionally done by the working classes are generally low skilled, low payed work. The influx of immigrants has meant that these jobs are already filled, thus leaving many at the lower end of the spectrum with no vacancies. I think that was the point Daltry was trying to make.

B.H.

Yours for a start, M.C.. You paint a rosy enough view certainly. People -traffiking illegal? So what. Doesn't stop it happening does it?

S.O.

B.H., I don't subscribe to that theory - but what I'm not going to do is be a complete **** about it and tar all immigrants with the same brush. Immigrants are not an alien species, they're just people and should be treated as, and spoken of as such - rather than telling stories of immigrants committing murder, benefit fraud and so on. That completely colours the situation and the immigrants themselves in an entirely negative light. There's nothing clever about that, its horseshit.

Every one of us is descended from an immigrant - and I assume most of us now think of ourselves as British/English/Welsh/S.O.ish and possessing the God-given right to be here.

L.R.

Well, we all see what's happening in modern Britain, the sick are refused treatment due to budget restraints, people seem to harp on that immigration has been beneficial to the UK where its really damaged the country as a whole and an already over burdened understaffed NHS who face budget restraints once again have to deal with the influx of immigrants who are entitled to full health care even though they have contributed nothing to our country, this affects the funding for expensive treatments.

B.H.Fine

S.O. so why bang on about 'popular right wing theory' without the equally ludicrous left-wing version? The truth lies somewhere in between.

R.S.

Yes, balanced immigration. Good immigration not mass immigration.

M.C.

A truth certainly not given by hate mongers such as the Mail, Sun or Express.

G.T.

So should we just let everyone in then, with no controls what so ever? Also take a stroll through Nechells in Birmingham and tell me how comfortable you feel, migration in numbers we have had previously is a problem, i see it every day. It's all well and good folk from Surrey saying how great it is, try living with it.

S.O.

Because B.H., the "ludicrous left-wing version" is not unpleasant in tone and nature is it? FFS, you need things spelling out for you! I did state earlier that there's a sensible debate to be had about immigration but most of what I'm reading here - and I'm sorry, but it does happen to be the right-wingers - is just dehumanising shite.

I live in London incidentally Guy, I couldn't be better placed to experience living amongst immigrants.

M.R.

B.H......thank you for your compliment....lol....trouble is I wouldn't even call myself a "leftie".........I would only class myself as centre-left.......which just goes to show how far our country has lurched to the right....immigration from the EU is difficult to prevent, and its a two-way street,.....I do believe we need to be careful with immigration from other parts of the World.....to make sure we are attracting people who will create wealth or provide essential skills

M.R.

Guy.....why do you not feel comfortable in Nechells?

B.H.

S.O.: how 'pleasant' a theory is should not determine its merit. How the hell can any sensible discussion about what is widely regarded as a problem be held if one is going to cling to myths to avoid offending some sensitivities? Its the truth that needs to be obtained. What I am reading here is an healthy spectrum of views, not dominated by 'right wing 'shite' at all. You just seem hellbent on a racist witch -hunt rather than any balanced discussion. I sympathise with R.S., since I have experienced your sort before: anyone raising the subject of immigration is a nazi.

L.R.

Well said B.H., I haven't seen any element of 'de-humansiation' here at all. We are all human afterall.

L.R.

Not all truths make for 'pleasant' reading either.

L.R.

How does that saying go? "Shout racist - silence the opposition" (thus ending the discussion usually)

S.O.

What the chuff are you on about B.H., you lunatic? There's been no racist witch-hunt whatsover. It was R.S. who decided he was being called a racist - before anyone even mentioned the subject!

Again, what is going on in your head - did I suggest a theory need be 'pleasant'? No, I gave my reasons why I won't entertain that - and if they're not good enough for you, I'm not surprised as you seem incapable of actually understanding what you're reading.

You and 'balanced discussion' do not go together B.H..

S.O.

Yes Louise, how does the other saying go - accuse someone of calling you a racist, silence the opposition (thus ending the discussion usually). You're not exactly a genius.

G.T.

Because it's moody, you here very few folk speaking English, there is tension between the eastern europeans and the asian community, often spilling over into violence. Crime syndicates run it. Admittedly that was probably the case years ago but at least you knew why you were getting shot! Call me racist if you like I don't think I am, I just think uncontrolled migration leads to more problems than it solves, I'm sure someone will now tell me why I am wrong and what a horrible person I am, it's the opinion I've formed over the years as a result of the things I see, information taken on board, articles I've read etc.

L.R.

Well you did kind of insinuate R.S. was racist.

"Sorry, it seems odd that you should be paraphrasing BNP/EDL PR on the UAF. Say what you like, I don't care, because it does. "

That's like saying 'stop spouting BNP bullsh*t"

G.T.

Dunno why you think I was referring to you S.O. I couldn't give a monkeys where you live, as long as it isn't by me.

L.R.

Well you're just full of lovely compliments aren't you S.O.?!!! Lol, cheers.

L.R.‎

....and now will I be accused of being a 'troll'? lol

G.T.

He's a lovely man eh, what a sterling stand up human being he is. Tell me S.O. what do you say to 2nd generation Indian immigrants who think migration is a problem?

L.R.

He'd call them racist?

S.O.

Louise, thanks for that balanced appraisal of yours. R.S. did a good job of intimating he was of that persuasion from the off - that's his, not my problem. Nobody had mentioned racism/bigotry and immigration, but he did - twice. Oh and yes, he was was paraphrasing them. But sorry, never said he was bigoted, just pointed out that one could easily assume it and why. How awful of me.

Nice to see that someone - me - exercised you enough to contribute.

L.R.

I actually have seen immigrants (2nd gen) on the news saying that they're against immigration.....lol....how hypocritical is that?

G.T.

On every discussion going he just insults everyone who disagrees with him and offers up any arguments against his, I just react in kind now.

L.R.

http: //news.sky.com/skynews/Home/Politics/Immigration-Searchlight-Populus-Poll-Finds-Support-For-Far-Right-Parties-If-They-Ditched-Violence/Article/201102415941796

G.T.

Shouldn't waste your time reading/responding to him. I do it for a bit of fun for 20 minutes or so a day. It's very theraputic

L.R.

Yes I've had all sorts of attacks on similar pages in the past...mostly by far left wing types. Yet I have never insulted anybody to deserve it in the first place.

S.O.

Why will you be accused of being a troll Louise? Not at all - but glad all of the political issues of the day do not encourage you to post, but I do. I think that's actually a backhanded compliment.

Guy, why would I say anything to a 2nd generation Indian immigrant aboud his views? Why would I say that he's a racist Louise? Between you, can one of you manage to make sense? I would take issue if the language about immigrants was generally derogatory as I have here.

I know full well that there's plenty of immigrant descendants in this country who think immigration is an issue. I don't know where either of you get the idea that I'm oblivious that it is one either.

S.O.

Where do you live Louise - is it Australia?

L.R.

And excuse me S.O. but this whole thread is about immigration.

"Nobody had mentioned racism/bigotry and immigration, but he did - twice. Oh and yes, he was was paraphrasing them."

One should never make assumptions.

S.F.

Guy, I can't speak about how Britain was before the 'mass-immigration' years but I guess it's similar to France. And as far as I know there was not any less gang violence. Maybe things are different, they certainely are but I do not think they are any worse than before.

Since everyone is so found of stats, why hasn't anyone talked about the (british) stats about school children achievments? And how Asian kids outperform anyone? Surely it shows that some immigrants do well, assimilate themselves, play by the rules and are an asset to the country?

M.C.

I just see some ignorance and bigotry here but that's nothing new, saying there's racism is going too far.

L.R.

Nope, why do you ask? I live in Nottingham.

S.O.S

orry Louise, your latest post makes no sense. As I say, I'm pleased that something moved you to post and it's me.

Guy, that's a bit rich coming from you. You are bloody insulting to everyone who has a different view from you!

L.R.

As for " but glad all of the political issues of the day do not encourage you to post, but I do"....well...I have children (who are not at school today) to look after so I cannot comment on ALL threads on this group, unlike some. Maybe you have too much time on your hands?

S.O.

Just wondered with the koala bear L.R. Why are you so interested in me?

S.O.

Never seen you post ever before L.R. You've not dealt with any of the other topics I've raised. In fact, you seem quite absorbed with me...particularly me.

L.R.

Immigration is a topic that I am interested in discussing.

L.R.

S.F., why don't you post these links?

G.T.

You've had your 20 minutes basking in my radiance I'm now off, ta ta.

S.F.

Does anyone think that immigration can seriously be stopped or should not it be accepted as a fact we have to deal with rather than something we may want to avoid?

L.R.

Ever thought that these Asian kids may do better because of their strict religious upbringing?

L.R.

Or that perhaps their teachers feel the ned to spend more time helping these students just incase they're accused of being racist? Just saying.

L.R.‎

(need)

L.R.

Does anyone think that immigration can simply be controlled to more skilled immigration instead of thousands of hospitality workers and labourers?

S.F.

Do British workers want to be unskilled hospitality workers and labourers?

L.R.

Scott, I just love Koala bears..........would you be bothered if I were from Australia?

R.F.

Hey Roger Daltrey, why don't you go ffffffffade away.

L.R.

No, did I say that?

M.C.‎

"Ever thought that these Asian kids may do better because of their strict religious upbringing?" How on earth is that related to a discussion on immigration and it's affect on working class people?!

R.S.

M.C., I do believe S.F. brought that up.

L.R.

What working class people? you mean there are some left?

S.F.

M.C. I brought up the fact that stats show that Asian kids do better at school hence demonstrating that immigrants from the 1st or following generations are generally well integrated in society. I think it is important to give all aspects of a problem when discussing it.

Now, what do the working class specifically resent immigrants more? That's an interesting question indeed.

L.R.

My sister doesn't have a job and would have happily taken on any job offered, unfortunately that offer never came along because potential employers could monopolise the jobs M.C.et using cheap migrant labour......admittedly there are some British people who would rather sit on their arse all day than take the jobs that nobody else wanted.........but my sister isn't one of those people and I do believe there are more out there like her.

S.F.

Working class people (whatever that means nowadays) are certainely projecting lots of negative feelings onto immigrants using them as scapegoats.

S.F. ‎

+why+

L.R.

So where is their voice? Who is speaking up for them? Labour certainly aren't because they have alienated voters such as my sis by not implementing proper controls on immigration.

L.R.

But it's true S.F., why are they scapegoats if it's true?

S.F. ‎

"So where is their voice? Who is speaking up for them?"

Louise, I actually think we cannot deny there is a problem there that needs addressing. However, I do not think the solution simply lays into 'immigrants bashing'

And as an immigrant myself, I'd like to point out that I was shocked at how much the class system is prevalent in the UK and to be fair I do not think that the working classes ever had a golden age in here!!

M.C.

Sadly, the only people who have been making efforts to connect with the former working class are the likes of BNP and EDL. Dangerous stuff.

S.F.

What is true? That there is a negative feeling towards the immigrants within the working class?

Or that this feeling has got any legitimacy?

M.C.

The negative feeling is legitimate, the target is certainly not.

B.H.

Come off it M.C.. Are youy suggesting that the left are not trying to connect with the working class? Whoi the hell are they trying to connect with then?

Ch.S.

OMG ROFGER DALTREY HOPW CAN HE SAY THAT!?!?!? HE@S A FASCIST NAZI RACIST SCUM!!!""" I hear the likes of the UAF saying....But Daltrey is right, Labours Immigration policy has ruined the very class that this party was formed to represent and stick up for. However I don't put the break up of the working class society soley on Labours horrid immigration policy, but other factors as such as societey, the break up of the family unit, a lazyness prevailent among younger people, benefits being easier to claim and going uncheck and a sheer lack of discipline. It is all of the above mentioned combined with Labours absolutely dangerous policys on immigration that have caused this.

B.H.

Negativity towards immigration as a predominant feature of the 'working class' might be expected since (a) their jobs are under greater threat (b) they are generally thick and see things in a very simplistic fashion.

S.F.

B.H., to be fair, as someone who is considering herself left-wing, I think there is a real reflexion to have on what it means today to be on the left.

I think in France middle class people tend to be more on the left than the working class ones who are also turning to the extreme rightl. It does need addressing, but it is a complex problem. And immigration will not be stopped no matter how hard we try so we better find other ways to deal with this issue.

M.C.

Well we haven't had a left wing government for a long time, and the much of former working class people are less likely to vote, so none of the mainstream parties have succeeded at connecting with them.

B.H.

Well no doubt there are cultural differences in play re immigration S.F.. My comment was in the UK context. Not sure what 'other ways' there might be other than (ultimately) violent confrontation.

G.T.

I still think putting them on Battersea Island with various forms of weapons and filming the outcome would make great TV, it would lower the numbers of migrants, be entertaining and generate revenue from the gambbling. Who said immigration is negative. £200 on Ishta Muganbeovic please Fred.

M.C.‎

"I still think putting them on Battersea Island with various forms of weapons and filming the outcome would make great TV, it would lower the numbers of migrants, be entertaining and generate revenue from the gambbling. Who said immigration is negative. £200 on Ishta Muganbeovic please Fred."

And people wonder why the word Nazi comes up sometimes in these debates.

S.O.

What left-wing? There isn't one in the UK of any significance.

Oh and Louise, well yes, if you were Australian, then obviously you'd be an immigrant wouldn't you?

As for the working class, blimey.... They are as different in their make-up and outlook as immigrants surely? As it happens, both of them are largely demonised nowadays.

S.O.

To think I was being told off for being unpleasant by G.T.earlier....

S.F. ‎

"Not sure what 'other ways' there might be other than (ultimately) violent confrontation."

Well are you refering to the Paris suburb riots a few years ago? It's happened once so as riots in Bristol happened not too long ago or in brixton a while go?

I do not see much difference between our 2 countries situtions, having lived in both countries. That was a sneaky unnecessary comment!

S.F.

Of course S.O. you're quite right categories such as 'immigrants' and 'working class' are not very pertinent and encompass multiple types of people. Though I think we need a minimum of generalisation to (try to) debate.

B.H.

S.F.: Sneaky? Unnecessary? I thought you were suggesting that anti-immigration views amongst the French middle calsses was more prevalent than in the UK. If tht is not so, ignore my comment about cultural differences

B.H.

S.O.: 'what left wing?' I know what you mean. The reds are now all masquerading as 'left of centre' ever since communism was shown to be a failed ideology.

B.H.

Not sure S.F. how we can tackle the problem of immigration if we can't use the term 'immigrant'...

S.O.

You clearly don't know what I mean B.H.. Who are 'the reds' (oh haha! They're Soviet types....oh well, I'll assume that all 'right of centre' are Nazis then, if we're going to be stupid about it!)?

There's no left wing parties in the UK of any significance. The Labour Party....oh please, don't make my sides split!

S.O.

Yes B.H., you just managed to use it. Let's please all practice the art of self-victimisation, just like the popular belief you can't fly an England/UK flag here anymore....

B.H.

Well there are no right wing parties in the UK of any significance either, S.O.. However there are plenty of individuals with extreme views, but few will admit to them.

S.F. ‎

"S.F.: Sneaky? Unnecessary? I thought you were suggesting that anti-immigration views amongst the French middle calsses was more prevalent than in the UK. "

No, sorry, excuse my bad Englih, sometimes it's hard to get myself understood!

I said the French middle class were more on the left (so not anti-immigrants) and that the French working class were turning to the extreme right. Same phenomenum as here.

I meant that the left base is no longer working class but middle class.

S.F.

What would a right wing party of significance would look like?

S.O.

If they don't admit to them, not sure how you can announce they even exist! Follow the logic B.H.....

Mmmm the Conservatives are certainly still right-wing and I'd also argue that Labour and them are not far apart. Nor do I understand why people think they are - they've played consensus politics since the end of the Second World War.

30 June at 18:15 · Like · 1

L.R.

Immigration doesn't really seem to affect 'middle-classes' though does it? As many of them will indeed be employers of those immigrants thus they will be benefiting from paying a measly wage to immigrants.

Also, the middle class are more likely to live in the countryside where the working class have to live in the slums/inner city with the immigrants.

S.F.

I personnally live in greater london in a very cosmopolitan area.

L.R.

Perhaps somebody could give me an exact definition of what is 'left wing' and 'right wing' thesedays - as opinions seem to vary.

L.R.

Well I have lived in Birmingham and let me say it is not pretty, especially the no-go areas for whites.

B.H.

Conservatives right wing? Don't think many Conservatives would agree with you there Closing the prisons? Big Society? Save the Planet? Party convergence I do agree.

L.R.

David Cameron giving away millions in aid..............why couldn't he put that money in the public sector pension pot?

B.H.

Ha ha L.R. Not all the middle classes have immigrant servants working for them and you'd be surprised how many get out to the countryside. Farmers crying outy for crop pickers.

S.F.

‎"it is not pretty, especially the no-go areas for whites."

There are huge problems linked to a lack of social mixity and ghettoisation is the issue (not the immigrants per se)

I am a strong believer in social mixity as a means to solving loads of our society's ills.

M.C.‎

"Well I have lived in Birmingham and let me say it is not pretty, especially the no-go areas for whites." Total myth!

L.R.

Having said that didn't Labour also give billions away in aid?

M.C.‎"

Conservatives right wing? Don't think many Conservatives would agree with you there Closing the prisons? Big Society? Save the Planet? Party convergence I do agree."

The first is to cut costs, the other two are to appeal to any lefty tendencies in the electorate but won't actually happen.

L.R.

But S.F., in the Tower Hamlets area there are talibanesque type Islamists going around putting up anti-gay posters and warning their muslim women that they must wear full Islamic dress........that is a big problem.

M.C.

Could you post a link about that please L.R. Would be interesting to know where you got that from.

M.C.

Anyway Louise, you're going all over the place with this. Keep on the topic of immigration please

S.F.

Extremism is a big problem and it goes both ways, yes anti West-feeling and fascism also exists amongst non white people! It certainely is as despicable as the other way around.

S.O.

Well now, I do agree with you on foreign aid L.R. Yet another own goal from this Government of idiots, following on from its "we're broke" rhetoric...then we loan an extra £7bn to Ireland. Not something a country that is "broke" could do (ask Greece). We've also expanded on our existing Middle East military jaunt. Not something a country that is "broke" can do.

I used to live in Leicester and there were some tensions there. But nothing approaching a boiling cauldron. I now live in Greater London, and I'd say its pretty harmonious.

L.R.

Which comment M.C.?

L.R.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1340951/Where-did-Labours-1bn-foreign-aid-There-proper-records-says-scathing-report.html

Sorry this one is the daily Fail but perhaps given time I could find something from another more reputable paper that will back it up.....

B.H.

Hey M.C., no need to shout Louise down. We;'re talking about immigration and she made a point about immigarnt problems in Tower hamlets. Why is that irrelevant?

L.R.

http://www.democracyforum.co.uk/bnp/93675-britains-future-tower-hamlets-taliban.html

and....

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/andrewgilligan/100060304/labour-london-borough-becomes-islamic-republic/

30 June at 18:43 · Like

S.O.

Is anybody actually arguing that there are no problems with immigration? I don't believe anyone is for a minute. What is not fair is to group all immigrants together as some are very prone to do, because all that does is stereotype. What about Australian immigrants? Americans? South Africans? Portuguese? Indian? Etc. etc. Not all the bloody same are they!

L.R.

Thank you B.H..

M.C., I thought it was all related....immigration shouldn't just be about effects on the economy.

L.R.

And many people do tend to have a 'tribal' nature. I dare say that if ever tshtf here, and anarchy rules the streets, poor immigrants will be the first in line for a beating from the natives.

B.H.

Is anyone here trying to group all immigrants together? No, can't say I've noticed it.

L.R.

Yes, I agree S.O. but I don't think anybody specifically singled out any type of immigrant in this debate...or did I miss part of the thread?

L.R.

I am quite sure that many Aboriginees hate the Aussies, and will not class themselves as Aussies.....(notice how it is permitted to say 'Aussies' but if I were to say 'Pakkis' then I'd probably be called racist?). Yes the PC elite have caused too much damage in this country....

L.R.

Sorry, I digressed a little :-/

S.O.

You haven't noticed it? Blimey....

L.R.

p.s. notice how one of those links I provided was something to do with BNP...I'm not BNP but I thought I would add their spin on Tower Hamlets which is echoed on the Telegraph blog.

L.R.

I wonder if the Aboriginees ever thought that one day they would be the minority in their own land?

S.O.

The PC elite! Oh please, that's a cracker. No such thing - a media invention. What does it mean to be "politically correct" exactly?

L.R.

You know the kind S.O. the ones who make too much out of particular types of wording of things....example...those College Heads who wish to called Christmas 'Winter Break' for fear of offending the minority when the minority won't even gi...

L.R.

Yes but it is more about their ethnicity than where they are from. If I were a Sikh and somebody called me a 'Paki' then I would be extremely offended....but how can you also tell what a British person or an Australian person looks like?

S.O.

But as it is so often associated with being used in a derogatory manner, then you've got the answer to your own question L.R. Do you feel a particular need to use the word?

Oh yes, those College Heads who do stuff like that - terrible. It's so rare that it makes the newspapers. Common everyday occurences don't.

S.O.

What Louise? Why are you asking me? I've never known anybody called an "Aussie" when they're infact not one. I'm sure it's happened but I'm equally sure it's rare. Not sure that I understand you've got a point here at all.

L.R.

No, I don't feel the need to use it, but even if I wanted to I would be accused of being racist. Even if it wasn't in a derogatory manner.

L.R.

But if I said 'I was just talking to a Yank'....nobody would think any differently.

S.O.

Oh right. But then, since you know that and you know why some people might just assume it as offensive, you know not to use it. I don't see the problem, it's not a hardship. I don't understand why you brought it up at all.

L.R.

Tbh S.O. I think i've slightly lost the plot or forgotten what point I was trying to make, lol. Bloody red wine with my supper....does it every time you know ;)

L.R.‎

(and 2 paracetamol for the headache after having the kids home all day lol)

M.C.

Let me enlighten you Louise, Islamic fundamentalism and immigration are two different things. Now please quit exploring the full range of xenophobic bigotry and get back on to immigration and how it apparently ""screwed" the British working class"?

S.O.

Because the term "Yank" has never been considered offensive. I've already explained why "Paki" has taken on those connotations.

L.R.

Sorry M.C., I digressed because of something S.F. said.

L.R.

Sky News right now....talking about pensions and foreign aid.....

30 June at 19:20 · Like

S.F.

What did I say??

L.R.‎"There are huge problems linked to a lack of social mixity and ghettoisation is the issue (not the immigrants per se)

I am a strong believer in social mixity as a means to solving loads of our society's ills."

This ^ lol...which is why I responded.

M.C.

No I think Louise clearly has an agenda of insitement here.

30 June at 19:44 · Like

S.F.

I think Louise is R.S. and that they both are someone else!

30 June at 19:45 · Like

L.R.

Here we go......

L.R.

So what makes you think that then?

S.F.

Invite me as a friend so I can check you have a valid profile and I appologise!

M.C.

Most of what you've been saying L.R.

L.R.

The only thing I have to do with R.S. is that he is now a facebook friend. Lol. Through our shared beliefs of athiesm/agnosticism.

English students 'to pay up to £36,000 to study in Scotland' - 29th June 2011

2011-12-24T12:14:00.000-08:00

Politics UK
English students face paying up to £36,000 to attend Scottish universities, it emerged today, even though local undergraduates will study for free.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/educationnews/8606470/English-students-to-pay-up-to-36000-to-study-in-Scotland.html
Is this fair?

J.M.C.

seams so to me.

C.F.

yes its fair ,why should scotland subsidise english students

S.S.

No its not.

C.F.

why is it not S.S?

S.L.

Depends what you mean by fair. It is perfectly right that the Scots choose how much they charge for tuition fees. However, it is not fair that the English cannot choose how much we charge.

S.F.

Because it's racist C.F.. Next?

B.H.

Careful C.F., your anglophobia is showing. Why should English LA's subsidise Scottish down and outs if it comes to that?

C.F.

we have a different education system ,scots would have to pay in england ,it is niether racist or anglophobic get a grip

S.O.

That's the same cost as it is to English students studying at English Universities, albeit with an extra year appended.

Quite obviously, to have such differentials across the UK is just asking for trouble.

A.W.

I think this is fantastic.

Scots are getting no tuition fees but are charging "foreigners" to make up the difference.

Brilliant idea Mr Salmond.(TBH Don't undersatnd why England doesn't do the Same, but he ho)

C.F.

of course its brilliant

A.H.

Why don't we just do the same for English universities? If they wanna be awkward, we'll play them at their own game.

A.W.

I can't see whats the fuss is about C.F. TBH.

C.F.

neither can i it is hardly scotlands fault westminster have different priorities

A.W.‎

@Alex..why don't you?

I would not have a problem with that one little bit. I wouldn't expect a free education in another country, I would eexpect to pay.

C.F.

as would i

C.F.

holyroods first obligation is to the scots

A.W.

Blame the Scots because of Westminster choices.

First it was presciption fees,

then free elderly care,

and now free tuition fees.

Good Givernance by a Government that cares for the people not the £££

Max Colgan

is the number of engiish students going to make up the difference though? i dont think it will

B.H.

If the Scots wish to be independent, why don't they have the guts to go through with it, instead of wanting a quasi-independence: self rule but subsidised by English cash?

A.W.

It will help. Rather than the the poorest not being able to fufill their potential.

And despite what the Telegraph report, EU students will pay as well.

A.W.‎

"self rule but subsidised by English cash?"

Now that is not totally true Barry...

C.F.

B.H.are you living in outer mongolia ............we are having a referendum .in the 2nd part of the parliment

B.H.

Yes, C.F. and I can guess the result now.

S.C.

I 'm English ( Not just British ) and I don't see the problem with the Scots charging as they see fit , it is their country and they should be able to do things their way , they are sorting their priorities out. They have a leader that puts them first. What is annoying however is they cannot charge students from all the rest of the EU because of EU legislation...................would somebody please just shoot it

A.H.

Although, i'm a strong believer in abolishment of tuition fees so this was just a knee jerk reaction ;) lol

C.F.

as far as im aware S.C.there are moves being made in this direction

J.M.C.

ok for the mindless morons on here. scottish students studying in england would pay the market rate at english universities. This is the result of coalition policy not scottidh policy. It only applies to english student as education is a devolved matter in scotland wales and northern ireland. The goverments there choose to contribute to student fees. Under eu law a counrty can not charge eu students more than they would charge there own students. SO a french student attending oxford would pay 9k attending scottish university they would pay nothing. I hope the explination doesnt tax your brain to much

S.L.

England cannot just "do the same", as England does not have a parliament to take that action.

A.W.‎

>http://www.scotland.gov.uk/News/Releases/2011/06/22104419<

“Scotland contributed 9.4 per cent of UK public sector revenue and received 9.3 per cent of total UK public sector expenditure, including a per capita share of UK debt interest payments.”

J.M.C. ‎

@ B.H.scotland contriubtes 10% of the tax and has 5% of the population

C.F.

and B.H.i resent being callad anglophobic .

J.M.C. ‎

@ S.C.its eu law

A.W.

Very good point Stephen.

Scots student would have to pay if studying in England.

As I said before, I really can't see the problem with this..unless you read the Daily mail and say phrases such as "benefit scroungers" on a daily basis...

S.O.

As a Scott, do I qualify for a gratis Scottish education?

J.M.C.

heres the link

http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2011/jan/13/european-student-numbers-soar-scotland

B.H.

Yes Alan, but can Scotland reasonably lay claim to the entire mineral wealth in the North Sea? I also wonder how many large businesses would exit were Scotland to become fully independent?

C.F.

unfortunatly not scott to many t lol

B.H.

Resent it all you like C.F., but your support for educational discrimination against the English smacks of anglophobia to me.

C.F.

very few i would imagine B.H.why would they ,and why are the english obssesed with the mineral wealth .scared the rest of the uk will be skint when we leave

J.M.C.

your a moron S.C.ive explained already in my earlier post either that or a troll. It even says so if you read between the lines on the torygraph website.

B.H.

Seems that the Scots are obsessed with it C.F.. Without claiming it all, they wouldn't have a pot to p**s in.

C.F.

no your westminster goverment discriminates against students whgo cant afford to pay ,ours doesnt ,lay they blame at wastemonger

C.F.

you wouldnt know an anglophobe if it hit you over the head with a claymore imo

J.M.C.

large business exiting scotland if scotland went independent? You would have a huge influx of business into scotland as economic policy would be decided in scotland and not to benifit the home counties

B.H.

Do they? Fees are not paid on entry but recouped via subsequent earnings. If such earnings do not materialise, the debt isn't paid.

E.L.

Scotland rhinks its fine for England to subsidise them but not vice versa. Wow the myth is true. Scots are tight!

J.M.C.

thats what i said S.C.they would pay the same as english students

C.F.

no B.H.you brought the elephant into the room not i .and what diffrence will it make to you if we dont have a pot to piss in .none

C.F.

england does not subsidis scotland change the record its wearing thin now

J.M.C.

the point in that you cant charge eu students more than you charge local students.English students do not count is a eu students in scotland as the uk has education developed within the constistutent parts of the uk.

C.F.

wee bit antiscot stereotyping going on there E.L.,

J.M.C.

So eu students under the new rules pay 9 grand a year to go to oxford but zero to go the standrews

B.H.

Well if we don't, why don't the Scots have the guts to go for all-out independence, if it isn't economic insecurity?

C.F.

i think i have already pointed out we will be having a referendum ,what part dont you understand

C.F.

the scots have no insecurities B.H.we leave that to our english friends ,

C.F.

with our nation or our finances

C.F.

i will bet though B.H.you were in full agreement with wastemonger charging student fees

B.H.

You may be having a referendum, but I can tell you now that the result will be an overwhelming NO to full independence, as all opinion polls indicate <http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/blog/archives/3570>

B.H.

Well C.F., I can say that most Scots on here have a masive chip on their shoulders. Its always about them and us and never 'we'.

J.M.C.

the basic point is that the tory graph and the various right wing press were and are completly against devolution as they are unionist and reactionary in there outlook. The point is that its a totally scizophrenic point of view. They bleat about statism but what could be more statist than the current constitutional arrangment. By the way the im not scotish so i have no vested interest

C.F.

and how many scots do you know on here then,and of course its about us why wouldnt it be we are a country in our own right .and emma our independence has got nothing to do with you. you have no say

J.M.C.

B.H.i see you were or are a tax inspector whats your opinion on vodaphone and the level of corprate tax avoidance evasion.

A.W.

Wow Barry, I certainly do not thinnk that C.F. has a chip on her shoulder. She is definately not an anglophile. Name calling is boring..ans so last year :-p

This just reinforces how badly the English are treated by their own Govt. You shouldn't stand up for it.

S.F.

Fantastic, my daughters can go to secondary school in France and then go to St Andrews uni for freeeee!!! (don't shoot me yet!)

C.F.

LOL S.F.the auld alliance lives on

S.F.

And then I can visit them and retire in Scotland?! Settled!

K.L.M.

Don't Scots get free prescriptions subsidised by the English? Whereas the English have to pay for their own? Just asking?

C.F.

do you think there is enough of us on here to open a chippy lol

A.W.
<have you been to Scotland B4 S/F.?>

29 June at 19:22 · Like

A.W.‎

@Karen,

No, that is incorrect.

C.F.

no K.L.M.the scots get free prescriptions subsidised by the scots nothing to do with england

S.C.

Stehen Glynn... i have spent a while looking for the link you wanted but can't find it . Whithin the EU national areas can disciminate on charges if they want but NOT to other EU countries. That is not what it says exactly but in general terms this is correct. This point has also been picked up by the national news. Scottish parliament is debating this issue and will be voting on it I think within the next two days because they want to charge other EU country students as well..........I have a growing admiration for Alex Salmon, I do so wish David Cameron had as much respect for English people's points of view and I am a Tory supporter !!

A.W.‎

@Karen,

Here is a post that I wrote earlier,

"Blame the Scots because of Westminster choices.

First it was presciption fees,

then free elderly care,

and now free tuition fees.

Good Givernance by a Government that cares for the people not the £££"

If you have a problem with paying for your presciption, take it up with your MP. Don't blame the Scots for taking a decision which you disagree with.

S.F.

Alex salmon is a lefty, isn't he? So how come you admire him S.C.Caufield?

C.F.

S.C.alex salmond thinks first last and always about whats right for scotland and her people .if only england had such a champion

S.F.

Why do English keep voting for neo-liberal policies and then get envious of 'socialist' Scotland?!lol

C.F.

you couldnt make it up S.F.they dont have it so they think we shouldnt get it

A.W.

Salmond a right winger..Im sure he was..

While the SNP are a centre left party.

C.F.

and im called an anglophobe lol

S.F.

Was he a right winger really? I am not too aware of scotland politics to be honest, just know some Scotts who are lefties and all voted SNP so I assumed... ...

C.F.

thats the thing about the snp many different political points of view coming together for the greater good of our country

S.F.

That's interesting, and they manage to cooperate well whilst having different values? A lot to learn from then!!

K.L.M.‎

@Alan, who said I blame the Scots?

S.F.

I need to research the subject a bit!

C.F.

you dont blame us i dont think but you assume england pays for it, they DONT

S.L.

England does not have a parliament or an executive to make decisions for England, so always gets a raw deal in the UK.

A.W.

Its a little bit more complex , SoFi.

Alex Salmond is a once in a generation politician.

He has a vision for Scotland that he shares with the SNP. Independence.

When/if Scotland became independent, the SNP would split into the "left" SNP and the "right" SNP. But at the moment they have focus and direction.

Im not a Nationalist, but Salmond has nearly convinced me.

Is this what its like having a Govrnment that cares for the population? Because I prefer the SNPs approach more than the Westminster approach.

K.L.M.

http://i.walletpop.co.uk/index.php?date=2011%2F03%2F03&slug=prescriptions-free-in-scotland-whos-footing-the-bill&a=show-post&commentspage&v=main

This article says that English will effectively subsidise it...

"And it's presciption charges in England which will effectively be subsidising the freebies across the border. If everyone is paying for the NHS, then is it fair that they should be discriminated against purely on the grounds of geography?"

So this is incorrect?

I.J.

If this was any other group in society it would be branded RACIST.

Shame on the UK Government and the Scottish Government for allowing those from England to be treated so poorly

A.W.‎

" England does not have a parliament or an executive to make decisions for England, so always gets a raw deal in the UK."

And whos fault is that? You had a chance for regional assemblies but voted against it.

And think of the centuries when Scotland and Wales din't " have a parliament or an executive". Don't remember any complaints then?

C.F.

SIMON it is for the people of england to attain their own parliment .and lets not talk about raw deals .the 4 corners of the uk get a raw deal whilst london is feted

A.W.‎

@Ian...?why?

K.L.M.

No I don't just assume, I think I heard it on the news....

C.F.

how in the name o the wee man is it racist

I.J.

Absolutely right Simon the English have no independent voice and it's a disgrace.

If Cameron ever grew a pair he would restrict voting on English only matters to MPs from English constituencies and would charge students from Scotland more to study in England.

A.W.‎

@Karen,

>>http://www.scotland.gov.uk/News/Releases/2011/06/22104419<

>Scotland contributed 9.4 per cent of UK public sector revenue and received 9.3 per cent of total UK public sector expenditure, including a per capita share of UK debt interest payments.<

M.H.G.

Westminster has imposed its ways over Scotland for centuries, I didn't see the English complaining then. If Scotland wants her independence, good luck to her and what has it got to do with anyone else anyway? Is it because the English have so little national identity, they are frightened to stand alone?

C.F.

the snp is probably the most inclusive party in the uk

A.W.

I believe the Scotish Government over Jo Robinson(??)

K.L.M.

Well anyway, Salmond wants more migrants so I think I'll move to bonnie Scotland 8-)

A.W.

Ian, Why is it RACIST?

C.F.

lol K.L.M.think we will have an influx of people wanting to come

I.J.

C.F. England does pay for free tuition fees in Scotland by way if the Consolidated Block Grant.

Within the so-called Union it's the only country that puts more in than it gets back when comparing public expenditure to tax raised per head of population.

A.W.

the more the merrier Karen. :-)

S.C.

Because S.F.he is doing what the Scots want. I'm more right wing than Hitler and anything leftish gives me a rash ....... But hell S.F.a politician that actually does do what he hears people saying !!!I don't agree with everything he does S.F.but his reasons for doing so are because he hears what people say and what they want. If Cameron was even a tad like Salmon we would have a vote on Europe, we would cancel the human ( read non -human ) rights bill, send serious criminals back to their own countries............and so much more ... It's called being elected to do what the electorate want, we in England have never had a Prime Minister like that.........That S.F.is why I have a sneaking admiration for him.

C.F.

no ian we get pocket money backl from wastemonger

C.F.

but never fear it will end soon with independence then you will have noone to blame for spending YOUR money except yourselves

M.H.G.

Who spent North Sea Oil money??

A.W.
This is what Government should be doing, listening to the people. Putting the interest of the population before other interests.

In this specific case, it has to be asked if Salmond IS playing politics. He knew that this would be the reaction from the media. Its win/win for him. The Scots ♥ him while the "establishment" hate him.

C.F.

think that was wastemonger

M.H.G.

Sorry, who wasted North Sea oil revenues?

C.F.

wastemonger

M.H.G.

Well it was not the Scots!

S.C.

I did

C.F.

M.H.G.have a look at the mccrone report that was hidden from scotland for 30yrs

C.F.

Interesting read stephen

A.W.‎>http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/this-britain/how-black-gold-was-hijacked-north-sea-oil-and-the-betrayal-of-scotland-518697.html<

A.W.‎
>http://www.oilofscotland.org/mccronereport.pdf<

C.F.

thankfully when the SNP realised what they were trying to do to the sea bounderies they put a motion before strasbourg disputing it in the event of independence wastemonger wont have a leg to stand on

I.J.

Marie North Seal Oil Revenue is a red herring. Thus revenue is dwarfed by the money Scotland receives from Westminster via the Block Grant (£4B versus circa £17B)

And what about the City of London are we equally arguing that revenue from it should stay in England?

A.W.

Yes Oil is an irrelevence

"An independent Scotland's budget surpluses as a result of the oil boom, wrote Professor McCrone, would be so large as to be "embarrassing".

Scotland's currency "would become the hardest in Europe, with the exception perhaps of the Norwegian Kronor." From being poorer than their southern neighbours, Scots would quite possibly become richer. Scotland would be in a position to lend heavily to England and "this situation could last for a very long time into the future.""..

A.W.

If Scotland revenue remained in Scotland, I can see no problem with City of London revenue staying in England.

K.L.M.

Why Alan? Lol. I'm coming to stay with you anyway, so you can make it up to me, he he he ;-)

M.H.G.

A.W.has answered your question Ian.

C.F.

haha karen

K.L.M.

And you C.F., do you have a spare room? Lol. Scotland's gonna be the place to be for the future ;-)

I.J.

Yes Marie and if that happened how would Scotland then fund free tuition fees. The City of London revenue dwarfs that from North Sea Oil!

A.W.

hehe Karen.

Well let London Go independent then Ian if they are getting such a hard deal..

I am sure the Scots would survive

>>http://www.scotland.gov.uk/News/Releases/2011/06/22104419<

>Scotland contributed 9.4 per cent of UK public sector revenue and received 9.3 per cent of total UK public sector expenditure, including a per capita share of UK debt interest payments.<.

I.J.

As for the point about racism and discrimination. Substitute the words English and Scottish for say black and White or gay and straight and it become clearer.

The Scottish government is discriminating against English Students

M.O.

Phew, now that was long and I only read half of it! Anyway for those who disagree with the principal of politicians ensuring that the will of the people is paramount, well what can i say? Green eyed little guy? Oh for an English party so dedicated to the electorate. Good on Scotland!

C.F.

get a grip ian

A.W.

Seriously Iain?

M.H.G.

The English have discriminated against the Scots for long enough Ian!! If Scottish students have to pay to study in England then how can English students be discriminated against when studying in Scotland?

A.W.

Is it racist that non EU residents have to pay a higher rate than Eu residents in tuition fees.

Is it racist that non uk residents can not stand for Parliament.

A.W.
I do not believe in for one minute this legislation is racist in anyway whatsoever.

A.C.M.

You know what I find incredibly amusing the fact that the SNPS Minister for Education is actually English. Now I am no fan of the SNP but they are not anglophobic and how they chose to govern on devolved issues is none of the English's business. However I personally am in favour of all University students making a contribution.

A.P.

Free prescriptions,free elderly care,free universities Scotland im on my way..

A.W.

You are more than welcome Andy.

I'll even buy you a pint!

A.P.

Wish I could repay the favor Al,but living in England now with an ultra Right wing fascist regime in power i no longer have any quality of life,im just working to pay the bills and thats about it..good luck to all you Scots anyway in your independance quest..

J.W.

the only way around this is to go and live in scotland if you want to go to university

J.W.

if you have a bright kid and think he or she will want to go to university why dont you move there it looks to me scotty cares about its people more than the English do

I.J.

J.W.its easy for a country within the so-called Union to help it's population be it with tuition fees or healthcare etc if you get a disproportionate slice of the public purse.

Look at the figures for public expenditure per head of population and its fairly transparent as to why our Celtic cousins can provide things people living in England can only dream of.

I.J.

Would it therefore be acceptable for English Universities to charge students from Scotland more to study than students from England?

I.J.

Discrimination = charging students from England more than students from Scotland when studying in Scotland.

I repeat if this was any other group in society there would, quite rightly, be uproar.

I would call on an SNP Government to do away with this discrimination and show leadership that the British Unionist parties are lacking.

30 June at 08:29 · Like

I.J.

Marie the brave heart stuff is all very well but please come on ......

Ordinary Scots, Welsh and English people have historically been done over by various British Unionist Governments so make it a Scottish English issue is plain wrong.

C.F.

IAN look to westminster to blame not scotland ,if your goverment cares less about the education of their youth ,that is not scotlands fault .and we are not sibsidised by england ,stop being so selective with your figures

C.F.

and i think you will find london gets more than anywhere else

M.H.G.

For God Sake everybody, The English don't have to go to A Scottish university, there are enough of them in England!

C.F.

and lets face it M.H.G.if they want to study in gods country then they should pay for the privlige .they wouldnt expect a free education in the states so why do they think they have a right to it free in scotland ,

M.H.G.

Most of the EU countries charge NO or very SMALL fees for entrance to university, England , a class ridden society, has decided to charge massive fees so it's a no brainer why her students should be charged more than anybody else. Stop whingeing English , you are not being discriminated against although you certainly have done a lot of discrimination in your time!

S.L.

Marie - England has decided nothing. England does not have a parliament so cannot choose anything. The UK has chosen for us.

A.W.‎

@Simon,

England rejected regional assemblies Simon. No point complaining you haven't got a voice when the population showed it was happy with Cental Control from Westminster.

C.F.

Im still trying to work out what this whining is all about ,im assuming that a lot of the moaning is from people who VOTED for this goverment ,and maybe even agree with students paying fees ,now they object because cotland caring more about our countrys abolished them .i think they dont want free education in the rest of the uk ,so dont want scotland to have it either

I.J.

C.F. check your facts London receives amongst the lowest public expenditure per head of population despite being the biggest wealth creator (and no I'm not a Londoner but from the Midlands).

I.J.

A.W.regional assemblies were rejected as they were a Liberal and Labour attempt to undermine the very idea of an English national identity (implied by Charles Kennedy at the time).

C.F. I'm not whinging about Scotland I whole heartedly support the SNP. I agree the blame for the mistreatment of England lies fairly and squarely with British Unionist parties. My complaint about the Scottish Government is that previously the SNP were the one party condemning the discrimination against English students when attending Scottish Universities.

I.J.

Marie your comments simply smack of anti English diatribe and are not worthy of response.

You've clearly watched Brave Heart one or two many times.

Blaming everything on England! Priceless! Does the expression chip on your shoulder mean anything?

D.M.

If England introduced higher tuition fees for people moving to their country in order to save thousands of uni place's for English people and stop thousands of people moving to their country just to take advantage of their lower tuition fees, would that be such a problem?

I.J.

No D.M. but it would probably break some EU rule

A.W.‎

@Ian,

"London receives amongst the lowest public expenditure per head of population."

This dude think differently>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Gy7f8vP2QY<

This video is so funny. Paxman being his usual smarmy self until the Welsh dud kicks him bum!!

Ian, for all my laughing and joking about this, I do think this is extremely unfair and pretty much nonsensical.

If Scottish & EU student don't have to pay, why should English students pay? ( And why do the rules apply to all EU students except English? Is England no longer in the EU?)

How much does Scotland receive from English students, is it really worth it? No unless it was for political reasons..

Topics like this usually turn into a England/Scotland argument. And that is just one big white elephant in the room.....

Just wanna add, C.F.We're missing you :-p

November 19th 2011 - Are British youths the "sacrificial victims" of the coalition Government's budget cuts?

2011-12-24T06:07:00.000-08:00

Politics UK

http://www.economist.com/:

"As the prospect of a recovery slips over the horizon, there is a widespread perception that Britain’s young are suffering most of all—hit as teenagers by the removal of some means-tested benefits, as students by soaring university tuition fees, as young adults by a lack of affordable homes and at every turn by a lack of jobs.

Amid headlines about a “lost generation”, voter support for deficit reduction may be tested, suggests the minister. “People will make sacrifices for their kids and grandkids,” he says. If the young look like sacrificial victims, that is “socially corrosive”."

Are British youths the "sacrificial victims" of the coalition Government's budget cuts?

And if that is true, what prospects do the “lost generation” have?

S.C.

The new generation is certainly suffering a lot at the moment, not easy for them. We cannot expect new generations to have better standards of living than their parents anymore... (already my generation seems to have a lower standard of living than the baby boomer's)

C.S.

They have exactly the prospects that they wish to make for themselves!I myself being 23 am apart of this 'lost generation' and I know where I am now and where i'm heading.Anybody can do anything if they want it bad enough.lets not forget we have it easy here.even in these 'hard times'

J.Z.H.

I am too. My dad's generation had to do things for themselves, and had it a lot harder than we did. I reckon most our age take comfort and ease for granted. I'm well aware of the path I'm taking and it's by no means easy, but it will be worth it in the long run.

S.C.

Good for you guys, you have the right attitude though on a macro-analysis level we cannot deny that the new generation does not have some of the opportunities the oldest had? (such as free Uni for instance)

J.Z.H.

No, but then people weren't being crammed into universities the way they are now, often with poor qualifications, and bad attitues and work ethics, which has led to a higher drop out rate, and more interest in courses which have no bearing on employability - and laziness wasn't so common as people HAD to get things done. Sometimes I don't think people realise how good we rally have it. A great number of uni entrants would be better suited to apprenticeships.

A.P.

So why do governments spend so much time encouraging kids to go to Uni,they come up with figures about how many kids they want in university(At least labour did),its not the be all and end all,lots of kids would be better off doing vocational courses and learning a trade

M.C.

No comments from the left footers then ??????????

Wonder if Robin has read this yet ??

ps: J.Z.H., C.S., good on you both

J.Z.H.

Thanks M.C.

J.Z.H.

We'd be a lot better off for it too A.P.!

W.MacD.

Once again the young are being attacked, "crammed into universities the way they are now, often with poor qualifications" I dont believe the qualification entry standards were reduced for University.

top ten degrees in 2006? anyone?

Law

Design Studies

Psychology

Management Studies

Business Studies

Computer Science

English

Medicine

Sports Science

Social Work

I think all of those would lead to an increase in your empolyability so please do stop generalising about todays youth being bad.

M.C. is that ok for you enough to show what utter rot you and J.Z.H. are talking?

M.C.

Notice the exclusion of any manual skills W.MacD., you know, the get your hands dirty ones

W.MacD.

so the jobs market is exclusively one where you have to get your hands dirty?

W.MacD.

so that means J.Z.H. who is in medicine isnt in a 'real' job?

M.C.

It was J.Z.H.s & C.S.'s ethic that deserved praise

W.MacD.

thats not what we were discussing

M.C.

I wasnt discussing anything, simply commenting

W.MacD.

I highlighted via my post the top ten degrees after J.Z.H. claimed that the youth today participate in degrees that wont lead to jobs, on seeing that list you pointed out that there was a lack of manual skills, as I asked is the job market one exclusicely built on jobs where you get your hands dirty

W.MacD.

No comments from the left footers then ??????????

thats not a comment thats a question

M.C.

True :lol

W.MacD.

and you also responded to my post

M.C.

Because I like you

W.MacD.

I know you cant help yourself

W.MacD.‎

S.C.

You 2 are so funny

J.Z.H.

Sorry but most of these do not, and they certainly do not lead to increase in earning power as has been claimed. It might not be obvious, but we are not over run with psychologists and English teachers, nor is sports science a particularly sought degree among employers. A great number of degrees do not actually qualify you for a job, nor do they lead to jobs, they simply represent an academic understanding of a subject. Sciences, medicine, engineering and law make degree requirements, as there is a minimum or legal skill set required for practice.

Business and management studies are mostly unnecessary, as people tend to take these (at least everyone I have met doing so), because they simply want a degree or find it interesting, and do not have much idea of what to do afterwards. But again it does not 'qualify' someone for a job, nor does it lead to any specific line of work. Many graduates of these subjects work in field far removed from their academic study fields.

Also I think a more up to date list would be necessary here, as I can say from experience that the arts and other degrees have massive interest where science and engineering have relatively little. Law appears to be holding up rather well. I'm not sure what the figures are for courses in 2010-11 but there is a huge demand for what are seen as 'softer options'.

More incentives for people to go into trades and skilled manual work would be a very good idea. At least then folks would stop complaining about the numbers of foreign workers needed to do jobs, and would have a positive effect on unemployment, and employability. Generally I think engineering should be given more priority both in university courses and apprenticeships.

And yes the job market is primarily propped up by manual work and industry, as the money has to come from somewhere. Sadly this country seems to have lost it's way there...

W.MacD.

‎'Sorry but most of these do not, and they certainly do not lead to increase in earning power'

The phrase you used was 'bearing on employability' and if your honestly going to try and claim that having a degree in law a degree in psychology a degree in social work or medicine etc.... doesnt have a bearing on your employability then your living in cloud cukoo land.

Evrything else you said after that first sentence is you trying to justify changing what you said because what you originally said has been proven to be so wide of the mark as to be comical.

J.Z.H.

Sorry but I haven't changed my position at all. And I didn't claim having a degree in law or medicine doesn't affect employability. But I am claiming that popularity of degrees in psychology and social work has no bearing on employability. These figures you have given are not for graduates of various disciplines. They are simply the number of people applying for degrees. And the vast majority do not lead to a job, or give any guarantee of employability within a field. As I said most people are not studying degrees which will have a bearing on employability.

S.C.

Anyway university was never meant to be purely utilitarian as in increase our employability level. It is meant to provide an education in the true sense, teach you how to think, how to be a citizen and , yes, know your classics... only the wealthy can now see it this way, as it used to be in the past...

S.C.

Terrible state of affairs

W.MacD.‎

'It might not be obvious, but we are not over run with psychologists and English teachers' - isnt that kinda the point of training more of them!?... duh

nor is sports science a particularly sought degree among employers - except for employers who seek employees with sports degrees.

Demand is growing for sports scientists and performance consultants, as society in general develops a greater awareness of health and fitness issues around work. What's more, with the 2012 Olympics around the corner, your skills are likely to be further sought after by local authorities and other organisations.

Famous sports science graduates include Peter Phillips, son of the Princess Royal, who studied at Exeter, and Paralympic sprinter John McFall.

Of 2009 graduates, over 60% went straight into full-time or part-time employment, with around a third in sports-related industries. Careers in education (11.1%), the public sector (7.6%), health (2.8%) and business (2.7%) were also popular choices. The relatively low proportion immediately employed in stop-gap retail or catering work implies there is a higher than average demand for sports science graduates.

Common career options include personal trainer, fitness instructor or leisure centre manager, but you could also be a PE teacher or lecturer, or a sports therapist helping to get injured athletes back on their feet.

"The sports industry offers a wide range of career options that sports science graduates could pursue," says Margaret Holbrough, a careers adviser at Graduate Prospects. "Those most closely related to the discipline are sports coaching, sports development, personal trainer or manager of a fitness or outdoor pursuits centre."

Other career paths include being a sports administrator involved in funding and organising activities, events organiser, sports psychologist or health promotion specialist. The knowledge gained on a sports science degree can also open doors to other sectors such as hospitality or youth work. As Holbrough adds: "Some graduates may have to undertake a portfolio of work to build their career by combining several roles, either on a paid or voluntary basis."

honestly J.Z.H. you should quit while your so far behind, and you really shouldnt make sweeping generalisations.

J.Z.H.

Full source here: http://www.guardian.co.uk/money/2010/dec/11/sports-science-degree

I think you're think of this back to front, especially when you ask if that is the point in training more of them. The figures you give are from 2006, so one can reasonably assume that these graduates are now safely in the work place... so where is the rise in psychologists, improvements in local mental health services? Maybe more papers published? Possibly, given the extra skills on hand, setting up of new departments and an ability, even on a small scale, to provide more efficient services? How about the English graduates? One might assume that wth a larger talent pool to choose from we could be seeing a rise in literacy and education?

The reason this is back to front is because the demand is not as high as those choosing the study. We can use your example here of sports science graduates, specifically the information you have provided.

60% of those graduates went into jobs, both full and part-time, although the jobs given as examples do not require a sports science degree, nor do they tell us how many went into full or part time employment (perhaps the source is generalising too?).

Now are these people employed by a company as trainers, or (more likely as that is the nature of the industry) advertising themselves as personal trainers and working from a public gym? Remember this is not an industry which is highly regulated like others, and virtually anyone can become a personal trainer quickly. I know of an awful lot who have sports science degrees (which by the way does not make one an expert on training or coaching), and rely on that to advertise themslves as trainers. This is of course very part-time work, which they would have been able to do without a 3 year university degree, usually done because they find it simple and can't find relevent employment. This is a field marked by a very high level of self-employment.

Are these actual jobs or something they are simply doing because they cannot find employment? How long did thse jobs actually last? Alas, details are not given. Except of course that only a third worked in a sports related field. We will assume this is a third of the graduates, rather than a third of those going stright into employment for arguments sake, but this is not stated, nor any of the other percentages given.

But what of the others? 11.1% work in education, despite only 6% undergoing teacher training... where are they then teaching? Are these self-given job descriptions? Perhaps it is on a different basis from the curriculum. What about public sector work? Exactly which jobs, and how did a sports science degree help them secure these jobs? In fact does the fact that they have a sports science degree necessarily make any contribution to their career choice or employability? Again, we are not told this. How many of these were employed on the basis of their degree rather than personal attributes or relevent experience, something which employers are looking at more closely now, given the large numbers of graduates, and attitudes of those looking for work?

Who are they working for? Hospitality and youth work? Is a sports science degree really call for by employers for this?

We then have smaller percentages working within health or business. Does a sports science degree qualify you for these jobs?

However many of these jobs in other fields are actually related to sports science? What for that matter of the other 40% of graduates who did not go into employment directly? Dod they eventually find employment? One hopes so of course, being out of work isn't all it's cracked up to be.

In fact the source quotes that sports science graduates must be in demands because only a small percentage went into retail, etc, after graduating (actually if we allow for percentages of the whole, and assume that those studying post-graduate were not working, this still amounts to just over 10%). Of course this does not mean anything of the sort. After all, 2/3 of these graduates did not work within the field of their degree (again I'll assume for the sake of your argument that is a percentage of the whole, rather than of the 60% who went into employment).

Only a small percentage (6%) went onto post-graduate study, so only a few would actually go on to be specialists of any kind in their field, or seriously wanted to use their degree professionally, some of which are rather removed, such as nutrition, although let's simply assume that it involves sports nutrition.

We also have a quote (journalists love quotes): "Some graduates may have to undertake a portfolio of work to build their career by combining several roles, either on a paid or voluntary basis."

Which adds another question to our list: How many of those employed are in paid or unpaid employment? Again, not given.

So no, I'm afraid I will have to disagree that sports science degrees are that valuable, except to the minority, who choose to progress afterwards. Certainly there does not seem to be any reliable evidence that the sports science degree has actually improved employability, simply a correlation between people having a degree and having a job of some sort afterwards, and nothing to show that mployers actually took into account the degree. In fact if we assume only helf of that extra 40% were unemployed, and take sports science graduates as a sample population, that would still be double the percentage in national population.

Please remember that when quoting newspaper articles, especially those involving statistics, that statistics never prove cause and effect. The trend certainly doesn't show that these degrees are in demand, nor that they hold any special relevence to employability. It certainly doesn't show us anything regarding long-term emplyability of job stability of course, whether these percentages were taken from a sample population or nationally, especially given the relatively unregulated job fields of a good proportion. Nice advertisement for sports science graduates and students though.

What to do with a degree in sports science

www.guardian.co.uk

It might not make you a world-class sprinter like Usain Bolt, but a sports science degree could open many different doors

W.MacD.‎

"I think you're think of this back to front, especially when you ask if that is the point in training more of them".- why else would you train people if not to fill a job?

"the figures you give are from 2006, so one can reasonably assume that these graduates are now safely in the work place" - agreed except the 2009 stats show 60% went into a job on completion of their degree so its a safe assumption.

"so where is the rise in psychologists, improvements in local mental health services? Maybe more papers published? Possibly, given the extra skills on hand, setting up of new departments and an ability, even on a small scale, to provide more efficient services? How about the English graduates? One might assume that wth a larger talent pool to choose from we could be seeing a rise in literacy and education?" - bears no relevance to the topic at hand dont know why you felt the need to post that.

"60% of those graduates went into jobs, both full and part-time, although the jobs given as examples do not require a sports science degree, nor do they tell us how many went into full or part time employment (perhaps the source is generalising too?)." - neither did we differntiate about part time or full time in the original post , and yes it does tell us that 1/3rd of those jobs were sports related.

"Now are these people employed by a company as trainers, or (more likely as that is the nature of the industry) advertising themselves as personal trainers and working from a public gym? Remember this is not an industry which is highly regulated like others, and virtually anyone can become a personal trainer quickly. I know of an awful lot who have sports science degrees (which by the way does not make one an expert on training or coaching), and rely on that to advertise themslves as trainers. This is of course very part-time work, which they would have been able to do without a 3 year university degree, usually done because they find it simple and can't find relevent employment. This is a field marked by a very high level of self-employment. " - mere conjecture with no relevance to the post save distraction from the original debate.

"Are these actual jobs or something they are simply doing because they cannot find employment? How long did thse jobs actually last? Alas, details are not given. Except of course that only a third worked in a sports related field. We will assume this is a third of the graduates, rather than a third of those going stright into employment for arguments sake, but this is not stated, nor any of the other percentages given." - 60% went straight into JOBS! big clue there. again time scale isnt relevant yes 1/3rd did somethign you didnt seem clear on earlier in your post. the graduates are the ones going straight into employment.

THis is like pulling teeth all this nitpicking for absolutely no reason, i've given the evidence to prove your generalisation was incorrect, if you cannot undestand that information J.Z.H. I'm sorry but thats not my fault.

K.M.J.

I do feel that having so much emphasis on academic qualifications and not general ability is one of the main reasons that our youth today have been placed in the situation of not having hope of progression. Qualifications should not be the be all and end all of employability. Hard work dedication and ability count for nothing in some peoples eyes.

W.MacD.

the thing is when you have an economy primarily based on the service sector than manufacturing there is going to be less need for manual labourers.

Qualifications are a huge indicator of skill and hardwork, and professionalism so its understandable that employers want more highly qualified employees.

This is one of the major differences between the public and the private sector on the whole on average employees in thepublic tend to be better andmore highly trained, in part because their employer sees the worth in training.

K.M.J.

W.MacD. .. I am not saying that getting a qualification at an early age is beneficial in todays employment environment. I am just saying that I would never have got further than a checkout at Tesco in my career if I had needed a qualification to say I can do what I used to do.

I went to night school in my thirties to get the qualifications for work I was already being paid to do.

W.MacD.

I'm also not claiming that either K.M.J., but having qualifications like I said and more specifically a degree does increase your employability in spite of whats been claimed on here.

A.K.

Many jobless young people have no hope for the future. This government has tunnel vision with their eyes firmly fixed on cutting the deficit in the shortest time...to hell with the consequences. The government hell bent on creating a "vast army of unemployed" to supply cheap/free labour big businesses who bankrolle the Tory government.

High and rising unemployment figures prove that the governments policies are not working and that the system needs investment not cuts.

The GCSE pass rate has soared with 70% of pupils getting at least a C these young people have worked hard and deserve praise and reward for this hard work not being thrown on the scrap- heap...

J.Z.H.

W.MacD. in case you didn't notice in my previous posts, these people are not being trained for jobs! They are simply studying for an academic qualification and as can be seen from a breakdown of your source, there is no cause and effect between sports science degrees and employability.

J.Z.H.

A.K., the only problem with young people being rewarded for their work, is that employers are increasingly finding them unemployable. Schools are now far more concerned with targets and pass rates to teach basic principles and behaviours expected in the workplace, such as attitudes and appearance, manners and reliability, things that are increasingly overlooked in schools.

POLITICS UK

Was the UK right to intervene in Libya? 29 May 2011

Cheap & Healthy Food. Is it possible?

Swearing at police 'is no longer an offence' - 26 June 2011

Should organ donation be an opt out scheme?

Does the UK adequately look after its injured Armed Forces personnel?

Is a UK National Citizen Service scheme for 16 year olds is a good idea? 15th August 2011

Mrs Thatcher and THAT website - 1 Dec 2011

Do you believe the Human Right Act and ECHR are appropriate for the UK?

Should the UK ban females wearing a burka as France did? 11/4/11

PoliticsUK - Thread of the day 30/12/11

Brian Strutton has said '‘We detect a reawakening among our private sector members of their bargaining strength.'

RMT transport union General Secretary Bob Crow has forecast that there will be a "new year of militancy and resistance."

"Socialism and Nazism are not so far apart" 29 October 2011

Reaction that UK Soldiers repatriation is leaving Royal Wooton Bassett 27 July 2011

PoliticsUK - Thread of the day 29-12-11

NightStop - The Homeless Charity 25th August 2011

Is there any popular support for Communism in modern Britain? May 31st 2011

The truth about cannabis is CLEAR...or is it? 30st Sept 2011

Thanks from all from PoliticsUK

Politics UK users reaction to St Paul's Dean Graeme Knowles resigning over the Occupy Protest.- 31 October 2011

St Paul's Dean Graeme Knowles resigns over protests

Why did the "Yes" campaign in the AV referendum fail so badly? -

Politics UK

Why did the "Yes" campaign in the AV referendum fail so badly?

Riots in England. 6-10 August 2011

K.L.M

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2023902/London-riots-Left-wing-cynics-blame-Tory-cuts-mayhem.html#socialLinks Are you getting this all you lefties! lol

Breast Feeding - A perfectly nature requirement for all mammals, humans included. Why the big taboo to do it in public? Is there a need to do it in public? 14th August 2011

Do you believe that the current time limit that you can have an abortion at is the correct level? - 19th August 2011

Did Labour's immigration policies "screw(ed)" the British working class.- 30th June 2011

English students 'to pay up to £36,000 to study in Scotland' - 29th June 2011

November 19th 2011 - Are British youths the "sacrificial victims" of the coalition Government's budget cuts?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2023902/London-riots-Left-wing-cynics-blame-Tory-cuts-mayhem.html#socialLinks
Are you getting this all you lefties! lol