S.F.F.C.P.

Hiatus

2008-07-05T22:25:00.000-07:00

I've decided to put this project on a hiatus. There isn't a whole lot of interest in it at the moment, so I'll stall it until a date when more folks may be interested. If you have suggestions, feel free to tell me about them. I'll continue to add to the list from time to time, but for now, no new posts. Don't forget to check out my main blog though.

Thanks.

New Works to Include

2008-03-10T12:02:00.000-07:00

Thought I'd mention that I've thought of some works to put on the workable list for a canon. Since it also seems like there is a general opinion that Shakespeare shouldn't be on the list I will strike Midsummer Night's Dream off unless someone can really come up with a valid reason it should be there.

Here are the additions:
Gulliver's Travels by Jonathan Swift
Journey to the Center of the Earth by Jules Verne (I'm putting this in SF for now, but it could very well fit into fantasy. I'm not sure exactly where to put it though.)

Any other suggestions other than the ones I'm about to add? Any objections?

More SF Definition Stuff

2008-02-19T09:34:00.000-08:00

I was writing a post related to the discussion of a definition of SF over on the YWO blog and figured I'd point there. The discussion is still open. I'd like to get a workable definition for this project.

A Workable Definition of SF (For Now)

2008-02-02T08:43:00.000-08:00

Given that we can't really discuss science fiction thoroughly without a working definition for it, I'd like your opinions on whether or not the following is a definition we can use for the time being:

"Fiction that speculates on future societies and future technology (in the near or far future) or on on things such as space travel, government, human evolution, robotics, aliens, technological advancements, etc (or both). It is the genre that asks 'what if?'"

One concern, obviously, is whether we consider works written long ago that no longer are considered 'relevant' as far as the science is concerned to be SF. I would posit that we have to still consider them SF because we must look at when they were written and the fact that, at the time, they were SF. 1984, obviously, is off by quite a few years, but we still consider it SF. The same can be said about a lot early SF.

What is Speculative Fiction? (Part One: Defining Science Fiction)

2007-12-22T13:03:00.001-08:00

In a previous post we were discussing the necessity to have some sort of standardized definition of what science fiction actually is. This is somewhat of a question that has been asked of SF for such a long time, but we need to come to an agreement on this subject so we can proceed with the canons. The goal here is to come up with one sentence that defines science fiction that we can use to address the texts that are suggested for the canon.

So, let's start with what science fiction is to you? What elements must it include? What elements cannot be present? Do we still include works that are considered classic SF even if their futures haven't happened?

Discussion #1: Genre and the List

2007-12-17T22:42:00.000-08:00

"Anonymous" brought up some good points about the canon, so I decided to open up the discussion by presenting his comment and addressing things and asking my own questions. This is for discussion, and he raises very important questions about the canon. (His suggestions for the list were also added).

Are y'all still talking about this, or am I trying to bring a dead conversation back to life?

It's still alive as far as I know, but one of the key issues is getting people involved, which is already a problem within the blogging community anyway. I am not really qualified to make the canon all by myself and I think an SF & F canon should be represented by readers rather than by some small sect of individuals, such as is the case with the Western Canon.

Couple of questions...
I am curious why you have included the Odyssey in the Fantasy list. I have always read Homer as Mythology (a genre in its own right). I think his writing has had greater effect on epic poetry than science fiction and fantasy, and I'm wondering if we really need the power of his name to validate the SF&F canon.

That was a piece I put up of my own accord because I felt that it had significant influence on fantasy, even if it doesn't seem so. Many of the things that have sort of become tropes of fantasy were alive in Homer's works first. What also makes it fantasy is that we know now that most likely much of what is written never really happened. It's sort of like one of the first great fantasies if you will.
On the subject of it being in the canon. Nothing on the current list is actually "in" the canon. The list is only a list of works suggested and added, all of which are up for discussion. So, actually if you have good arguments against a work that is there, bring them up, just as you did about the Odyssey.
Does anyone else agree with the quoted blurb about Homer? I can see what he/she is saying, so perhaps I am somewhat wrong in putting it on the list for discussion. Any other thoughts?

Also, Shakespeare's Midsummer Night's Dream... I can understand why you might consider it for the Fantasy canon; however, I think there is more to High Fantasy than faries and pixies and imps getting themselves and gullible humans into trouble.
Props to Shakespeare for getting Western Literature started, but I don't think he belongs in a canon of speculative fiction literature. I think Midsummer Night's Dream would be more comfortable in folklore, or comedic drama (where it is traditionally slotted).

Well, the fantasy side of the canon is just fantasy in general. It doesn't pertain to only high or epic fantasy, but to any form of fantasy that is clearly marked as 'fantasy'. So this could even mean children's fairy tales if such stories were significantly influential.
However, I would like to hear more of what you have to say about Shakespeare. I agree that he is not, in any sense of the word, a fantasist as we would see it today. He might have written some fantasies, but perhaps that had more to do with the world he lived in. Does anyone have anything to say about this too?

In the interests of full disclosure, I am against tradition, form, and any other expectations a board of "scholars" might have for a piece of writing under consideration for admission to the literary canon.
Have I enabled a reader to escape from the ordinary?
Then I am happy.
Have I allowed my audience to grow beyond the expectations and limitations of their world?
Then I am happy.

I agree! This is why I wanted this project to be open to the public. I don't want a canon devised by a bunch of people sitting in a University some place deciding what is considered canon worthy. They are often too narrow-minded and pay far too much attention to trivial things like whether it won the Nobel. Awards are not a prime component of selections for this project, but if the award is worthy of note it can help a work be pushed higher on the list. Generally, though, works that receive speculative fiction based awards are voted on by fellow specfic writers or by readers themselves (such as the Hugos). The works for this project have to be works that influence the genre and have some impact on the people that read them.

Perhaps building a canon will result in a philosophical discussion of what science fiction and fantasy is, but I wonder if it would be more useful first to define what we mean when we say "science fiction" or "fantasy" so that we recognize what we're looking for when it passes us on the street.

This is a very good point. I have personal opinions of what I think SF and F are, and I suppose I'll share mine. I would appreciate feedback on this too. This point is very valid. If we have differing opinions of what SF or F is, then we should really consider trying to find a middle ground.
Science fiction, to me, must involve the future, or in the case of books in which the future no longer works, a prior future, in which technology has advanced in some way, or the date itself is advanced. Space ships, computers, cybernetics, time travel, aliens, etc. may be present. Near-future is still science fiction, even if the technology is very close to today. Alternate history, I think, only applies if something very science fiction-ish appears in the work.
Fantasy may be in the real past, or in an imaginary world, and must involve some aspect of magic or the medieval, or both. Or it may be set in a world of today where magic exists. This is sort of more vague because fantasy to me is really very wide. I think magical realism, however, doesn't really apply because it doesn't attempt to bring that magic out. It's more like odd phenomenon.
Thoughts on this? Perhaps my wording is off, or you have a different opinion.

Added Items!

2007-12-08T20:21:00.000-08:00

I've added several items to the list already (Fahrenheit 451 and Ringworld just now). You can find The List here, or you can click it on the right sidebar there. These are simply items for discussion at this point. Meaning, you can suggest ANYTHING you think should be considered or discussed, provided it fits the criteria found here.

You can leave suggestions anywhere on the site, although an ideal, organized place would be here.

Also, please tell people about this. It won't go anywhere unless we get community involvement. If you have an argument you'd like to bring up on any subject related to this project, please use the "Contact Me" link on the right to send an email with your argument. I can post it here and provide a link to your blog and we can have a discussion on a particular book. I haven't read everything on the list right now, so I can't comment on whether I think they belong, but perhaps some of you have an opinion. So feel free to email me!

Suggestions?

2007-11-20T12:40:00.000-08:00

Anyone have any suggestions for the list? Make them here. We'll get a big list together and cut it down slowly until we have the fifty most important books in each category. So, start suggesting all!

The Forever War by Joe Haldeman (Discussion)

2007-11-09T10:03:00.000-08:00

So why would you consider this novel to be canon worthy? What about it makes you think it is influential on literature?

Start the discussion!

The List (For Discussion, Not Official)

2007-11-05T10:19:00.000-08:00

This is the list, thus far. Books that are included here may be permanent additions, or they may not. The goal is to suggest a large number of books and then slowly work it down to the appropriate 50 book length. Feel free to argue about any book here because all books here are simply nominated by me or by others and are up for discussion! Give your reasons why you don't like a book on the list, etc. I can start new discussions on the books at any time.
So here it is:

Science Fiction
Dune by Frank Herbert (haven't read)
War of the World by H. G. Wells (haven't read)
1984 by George Orwell
Neuromancer by William Gibson
A Clockwork Orange by Anthony Burgess
Frankenstein by Mary Shelley
Forever War by Joe Haldeman
Slaughterhouse Five by Kurt Vonnegut
Stranger in a Strange Land by Robert A. Heinlein (haven't read)
Doomsday Book - Connie Willis (haven't read)
The Demolished Man by Alfred Bester (haven't read)
The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy by Douglas Adams
Fahrenheit 451 by Ray Bradbury (read part of)
Ringworld by Larry Niven
More Than Human by Theodor Sturgeon
Journey to the Center of the Earth by Jules Verne

Fantasy
Lord of the Rings by J. R. R. Tolkien
The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe by C. S. Lewis
Dracula by Bram Stoker
The Odyssey by Homer
A Midsummer Nights Dream by William Shakespeare
The Rings of the Nibelung by Richard Wagner
Beowulf by Unknown
A Christmas Carol by Charles Dickens
Gilgamesh by Unknown
Gulliver's Travels by Jonathan Swift

There it is for the time being. This is NOT the official list. This is JUST the list as it stands right now. Anything that gets mentioned will end up here.

The Hobbit: Canon Worthy?

2007-11-02T12:45:00.000-07:00

I was thinking today about the merits of The Hobbit. Certainly Tolkien was a man of brilliance, but I have to wonder if The Hobbit, which I haven't read, would fit into a canon. I'd like your opinions on the matter.
Does The Hobbit fit into the criteria? Why or why not? Explain its significance without using Lord of the Rings. I'm curious to know what people think of this particular work. I know it is influential, but how influential?

To Start: Shoe-ins

2007-11-01T10:49:00.000-07:00

(This was originally on The World in the Satin Bag, my other blog)
It occurred to me today, while I was fiddling with my template, that we might have to start up a new blog for this canon idea. Why? Well, it would make navigating the discussion of particular works easier since navigating my site for a few related posts might be a little annoying. It'd be much simpler to have everything laid out in one little space.
Is anyone against the idea of starting another blog? It would be only for the canon, and canon related things, nothing else.
Also, I thought it might be a good idea to start off the canon by going through all the books that should be shoe-ins. It would be easiest to get all those we know will automatically be included. However, if you don't agree with ones I've put up, please discuss it. These are just books I think would be considered shoe-ins. But I might be wrong.

Science Fiction:
Dune by Frank Herbert (haven't read)
War of the World by H. G. Wells (haven't read)
1984 by George Orwell
Neuromancer by William Gibson
A Clockwork Orange by Anthony Burgess
Frankenstein by Mary Shelley

Fantasy:
Lord of the Rings by J. R. R. Tolkien
The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe by C. S. Lewis
Dracula by Bram Stoker
The Odyssey by Homer
A Midsummer Nights Dream by William Shakespeare

Any others you can think of? Any you don't agree with? Why or why not? Let's start this discussion!

Type rest of the post here

The Criteria, etc.

2007-10-31T19:44:00.000-07:00

(Originally posted on The World in the Satin Bag, my other blog)
I want you!

That's right, I'm going through with this idea, but I can't do it alone. I need help from everyone out there. I don't want this to be a project that I do by myself, because I certainly do not have any sort of authority to do such a thing. So, I'm asking for involvement from the community. That means writers, readers, bloggers, etc. If you like SF and F, then you're welcome to include your opinion.
Here's more information:

Get involved! Your opinion matters. Suggest books, discuss why you think those books should be in a canon, etc.
Talk about this project. Spread the word! The more people that get involved the better!
Tell me what you think! Do you think I should move this project to its own page? Should it stay here? What do you think needs to be considered in the criteria? Etc.
Remember the criteria (I added some stuff):

Popularity
This is not what it sounds like. No books should be chosen purely on the fact that everyone out there bought it, read it, and loved. At the same time, though, the book has to have had a mark on the public to even be recognized and have influence. A book that is read by five people has just about no influence on the genre. But popularity should be taken with a grain of salt. There are plenty of books that are popular, but are at the same rather lax in literary merit (perhaps the Da Vinci Code would be an example).
Longevity
The novel or even novella, since we should not exclude works that today would not be considered novels, should have stood the test of time. It has to have had a lasting influence.
Critical Success
It has to be recognized in some way for its importance. This could mean it has won awards or simply has been analyzed or referenced. There may be many novels, particularly older novels, that would not have won awards but still have influence.
Influence
Pretty obvious since I've mentioned it already. It has to influence other writing. That influence has to be genre defining, powerful. Not simply that it made people buy books in that genre, but that it actually changed the direction of SF & F literature in some way.
Age
The novel should be at least ten years old unless you can find a compelling reason to suggest a newer book. In reality we can't assume that any books that are popular now will have a lasting effect on the genre.
Originality
The book must present some sense of the original. If you recommend a work of fantasy, then it has to at least feel fresh, rather than purely derivative.

Email me, comment, post, etc. Seriously, the more involved you get, the more we discuss, the better it is going to be.

This project could take a long while. Developing a canon isn't exactly a piece of cake and there may be a lot of criticism of books. But, this is the start of a good thing.!

The Mission

2007-10-30T21:34:00.000-07:00

The Science Fiction and Fantasy Canon Project is an attempt to establish with some credibility an acceptable literary canon of those works in speculative fiction that are not only the most influential, but most important to the genre, literature, and society. Involvement from the community is desired simply because one cannot do such a project alone. For that reason, this is a project for anyone to take part in, whether you are a casual reader of speculative fiction, a writer, an editor, or simply a fan of speculative fiction.
This project will set forth to create three separate canons.

Science Fiction Novels
Fantasy Novels
Science Fiction and Fantasy Short Stories

Each of the novel canons will include fifty of the most influential and important works starting from the dawn of science fiction or fantasy and ending ten years before the current time, taking into account that his project may span over several years. Please look for the upcoming guidelines and general information on the project that will go into depth on the project itself.
The short story canon will include one hundred short stories in either genre considered to be groundbreaking works that shaped the short form in speculative fiction.

I hope you will join in on the project, spread the word, and help make this a success.

Thank you.

The First Post

2007-10-29T19:33:00.000-07:00

This is a test, and only a test. I'm trying out a non-blogger template on Blogger and seeing how it works. There will be more information about this project as things get underway. For now, this will suffice.