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	<title>Shadow In The Flame</title>
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	<link>https://shadowintheflame.com/</link>
	<description>Philosophy, Politics, Religion and Life</description>
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	<title>Shadow In The Flame</title>
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	<item>
		<title>Our Comment Policy</title>
		<link>https://shadowintheflame.com/our-comment-policy/</link>
					<comments>https://shadowintheflame.com/our-comment-policy/#respond</comments>
		
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ric Vatner]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 31 Oct 2025 13:02:32 +0000</pubDate>
				<category><![CDATA[Featured Post]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Uncategorized]]></category>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://shadowintheflame.com/?p=2886</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[<p> we regard the comments as an important part of this blog. We believe it is crucial to moderate the comments before posting them to the website...</p>
<p>The post <a href="https://shadowintheflame.com/our-comment-policy/">Our Comment Policy</a> appeared first on <a href="https://shadowintheflame.com">Shadow In The Flame</a>.</p>
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<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>Date Updated: 31 October 2025</strong></p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">I would like to take this opportunity to discuss our comment policy.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">First, we regard the comments as an important part of this blog. We believe it is crucial to moderate the comments before posting them to the website, if we didn’t people would stop reading them because of the large number of posts that just promote products or link to pornographic websites or other content of dubious interest or worse.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>Our New Policy Regarding Links to Websites</strong></p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">We used to check every link attached to a comment before approving it, but with bots posting huge numbers of comments and the large number of malicious links prevalent on the Internet, our policy is now to delete all links, and often, the comment as well.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">This is unfortunate, as links to reputable websites are valuable to both of us. I hope this is a temporary solution until we find a better way to offer readers an opportunity to include reputable links.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">I really appreciate that several of you have noticed that we have no spam in our comments section and that is part of our&nbsp;commitment to you. We believe this policy improves the overall experience for all our readers. However, it is a big job, and sometimes we get behind, and I really apologise if you are waiting to see your comment appear. It will be there soon, I promise.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>We Want to Hear Your Opinion</strong></p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Second, when I looked at the comments waiting to be approved, I saw a couple that said they didn’t agree with such-and-such point of view, but they didn’t say why. This blog is a philosophy blog, and disagreements or alternative views are the basis of good philosophy and friendly conversation. I really urge you to tell us what you think. I hope that by highlighting some comments we have received, for example, by posting them as a guest article, even if they criticise one of our articles, you can see we are serious about encouraging real discussion.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">We never delete a comment because it doesn’t agree with or complement our post. In fact, we rejoice when someone feels comfortable enough to write to us and outline their point of view. For or against. So please feel free to join in and post a longer comment.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>Why We Delete Some Comments</strong></p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Finally, I would like to touch on something we take into consideration when we approve or delete a comment.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">We check to see whether a comment is relevant. If a comment has nothing to do with the article or the general range of topics we discuss here, we ask ourselves, “Would our readers be interested in this?” If the answer is no, we delete the comment. Since millions of blogs cover just about any topic, we ask you to post a review of insurance, a dental practice or the latest iPhone etc. to a relevant blog, not here. Although I understand bots posted most of these types of comments, not humans.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>We Add Our Comment To Your Comment</strong></p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">We also add comments to many of your comments either answering your questions or adding further&nbsp;elucidation on some point, so I recommend you check out the comments as they can be quite interesting.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Finally, we try to reduce the number of comments by weeding out multiple posts to the same article from the same source. Sometimes we approve two if the second one includes additional relevant material. If you have a lot to say, we suggest you post a longer comment.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>A Note to Spammers</strong></p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">We read every comment and delete spammy comments.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>Thank You</strong></p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">I would like to thank every reader who has taken the time to post a comment. You are an important part of this blog, and we look forward to receiving your comments with interest (and trepidation). I certainly hope more of you will add longer commentaries or submit articles, and I can assure you that I approve ALL relevant comments, good, bad, for and against or of a contrary or similar opinion.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">You can submit an article either through the comments section or by going to the contact us page and posting it there. If you request us to contact you, please ensure that you provide a correct email address.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Best Wishes,</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Ric Vatner</p>
<p>The post <a href="https://shadowintheflame.com/our-comment-policy/">Our Comment Policy</a> appeared first on <a href="https://shadowintheflame.com">Shadow In The Flame</a>.</p>
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		<title>Is Philosophy Useful in Modern Times?</title>
		<link>https://shadowintheflame.com/is-philosophy-useful-in-modern-times/</link>
					<comments>https://shadowintheflame.com/is-philosophy-useful-in-modern-times/#respond</comments>
		
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ric Vatner]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 31 Oct 2025 10:55:58 +0000</pubDate>
				<category><![CDATA[Featured Post]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Uncategorized]]></category>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://shadowintheflame.com/?p=2950</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[<p>Imagine scrolling through TikTok late at night, consuming endless personalised content. Each video perfectly matched to your interests, each frame designed to keep you engaged.</p>
<p>The post <a href="https://shadowintheflame.com/is-philosophy-useful-in-modern-times/">Is Philosophy Useful in Modern Times?</a> appeared first on <a href="https://shadowintheflame.com">Shadow In The Flame</a>.</p>
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										<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><div class="et_pb_section et_pb_section_0 et_section_regular" >
				
				
				
				
				
				
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				<div class="et_pb_text_inner"><p>Imagine scrolling through TikTok late at night, consuming endless personalised content. Each video perfectly matched to your interests, each frame designed to keep you engaged. Now consider Plato&#8217;s allegory of the Cave, where prisoners are chained in a dark cavern, only able to see shadows cast on the wall. Having never seen the real world, they mistake these shadows for reality itself. Sound familiar?</p>
<p>Two thousand years before we created our digital echo chambers, Plato warned about the danger of mistaking artificial representations for reality. Today, as we spend hours in our own digital caves, watching carefully curated reflections of the world through our screens, his insights aren&#8217;t just relevant – they&#8217;re urgent. The philosophical questions that troubled ancient minds have become the defining challenges of our digital age: What is real? How do we know what we know? And who controls what we see?</p>
<h3 class="wp-block-heading">Why Ancient Wisdom Matters More Than Ever</h3>
<p>Paradoxically, the problems of modern-day life require ancient wisdom precisely because they&#8217;re new. Our smartphones might be cutting-edge technology, but our brains still operate on ancient hardware that has changed little. We&#8217;re using Stone Age minds to navigate a digital-age world. This mismatch creates unprecedented challenges that philosophy is uniquely able to address:</p>
<ul class="wp-block-list">
<li>When AI chatbots can generate answers to any question, how do we learn to ask the right questions?</li>
<li>As information overwhelms us, how do we distinguish knowledge from noise?</li>
<li>Why do we feel increasingly lonely while living in a hyper-connected world?</li>
</ul>
<h3 class="wp-block-heading">While AI Answers Flow Effortlessly, We Need to Shape Questions with Precision and Care</h3>
<p>In an age where answers are just a search away, philosophy&#8217;s true value isn&#8217;t in providing more answers – it&#8217;s in helping us ask better questions. While Google can tell you what others think, philosophy teaches you how to think for yourself. This becomes crucial when facing challenges that have no historical precedent.</p>
<ul class="wp-block-list">
<li>What does authentic connection mean in a world of digital relationships?</li>
<li>How do we maintain focus and thoughtful self-thinking while living in a digital ecosystem designed to capture our attention and influence our opinions?</li>
<li>How can we ensure AI serves society when its rapid evolution challenges our very understanding of reality?</li>
</ul>
<h3 class="wp-block-heading">Welcome to Shadow in the Flame</h3>
<p>Here at Shadow in the Flame, we explore these modern challenges through the lens of philosophy. Each article takes a contemporary issue and illuminates it with insights from history&#8217;s greatest thinkers, making philosophical wisdom practical for modern life.</p>
<p>Philosophy has always thrived on dialogue and the exchange of ideas. From Socrates in the Athenian marketplace to discussions in modern digital forums, the greatest insights often emerge when minds meet in thoughtful conversation. That&#8217;s why we&#8217;ve created not just a collection of articles, but a space for collective wisdom to grow.</p>
<p>Whether you&#8217;re wrestling with the question of loneliness in a hyper-connected world, or any other question, it is important to be aware of the scourge of disinformation often in the form of fake videos, articles and images which in today’s digital world are everywhere. Their purpose is to confuse, cause discontent, make you fearful, and sometimes, angry. The antidote to this disinformation is the age-old, tried and tested philosophical approach.</p>
<p>Join us in our thoughtful explorations of topics like bullying, love, breaking up and modern loneliness or wherever philosophical questions meet modern challenges. You can join our growing community by adding your thoughts in the comments section below each article. Share your experiences, challenge ideas respectfully, and engage with other readers&#8217; perspectives. Every comment enriches our collective understanding, and the most thought-provoking discussions often emerge from these exchanges. Don&#8217;t just read—join the discussion! Your unique viewpoint, your questions, your experience could spark the next fascinating dialogue.</p>
<p>“In a digital world, philosophy offers not just answers, but better ways to think about the questions themselves.”</p>
<p>Join us as we navigate these new territories with timeless principles, discovering how ancient wisdom illuminates our modern path forward.</p>
<p>Ric Vatner</p>
<p>Founder, editor and contributor</p></div>
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<p>The post <a href="https://shadowintheflame.com/is-philosophy-useful-in-modern-times/">Is Philosophy Useful in Modern Times?</a> appeared first on <a href="https://shadowintheflame.com">Shadow In The Flame</a>.</p>
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		<title>Welcome to Shadow in the Flame</title>
		<link>https://shadowintheflame.com/welcome-to-shadow-in-the-flame/</link>
					<comments>https://shadowintheflame.com/welcome-to-shadow-in-the-flame/#respond</comments>
		
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ric Vatner]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 28 Jul 2023 13:20:28 +0000</pubDate>
				<category><![CDATA[Uncategorized]]></category>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://shadowintheflame.com/?p=2890</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[<p>Whether you’re facing a specific challenge or curious about how philosophy can enhance your life, you’re in the right place.</p>
<p>The post <a href="https://shadowintheflame.com/welcome-to-shadow-in-the-flame/">Welcome to Shadow in the Flame</a> appeared first on <a href="https://shadowintheflame.com">Shadow In The Flame</a>.</p>
]]></description>
										<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The post <a href="https://shadowintheflame.com/welcome-to-shadow-in-the-flame/">Welcome to Shadow in the Flame</a> appeared first on <a href="https://shadowintheflame.com">Shadow In The Flame</a>.</p>
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		<title>Shadow in the Flame is Back</title>
		<link>https://shadowintheflame.com/shadow-in-the-flame-is-back/</link>
					<comments>https://shadowintheflame.com/shadow-in-the-flame-is-back/#respond</comments>
		
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ric Vatner]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 01 Jul 2023 12:38:08 +0000</pubDate>
				<category><![CDATA[From the Editor to You]]></category>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://shadowintheflame.com/?p=2686</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[<p>I want to apologise for not moderating the comments for the last two days</p>
<p>The post <a href="https://shadowintheflame.com/shadow-in-the-flame-is-back/">Shadow in the Flame is Back</a> appeared first on <a href="https://shadowintheflame.com">Shadow In The Flame</a>.</p>
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				<div class="et_pb_text_inner"><p><img decoding="async" src="https://shadowintheflame.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/11/Into-each-life-some-rain-must-fall.png" style="width: 250px; height: auto; padding-right: 20px; float: left;" /></p>
<p>Shadow in the Flame was a personal project I started in 2009. It was a time of tremendous upheaval in my life and it had been that way for a couple of years. I was alone with four children to bring up. All the friends and advisors I had in the good times were gone. All I had was my books.</p>
<p>One day when my daughter saw I was distressed, she asked me if I was okay. I told her I don’t know what to do. She said “Don’t worry daddy, I’m sure you have a book on it” So I said let’s go find it. I asked her to choose one and she chose A Nietzsche Reader from the shelf and handed it to me.</p>
<p>It saved my life and set me on a new course. I had a large collection of philosophy books, some I had read, but I didn’t need them then. This time I needed advice and encouragement. I needed the way. And I found that and more in my philosophy books.</p>
<p>When I was at high school and later at university, I found if I wanted to learn something, it helped to write about it. I worked it out through my writing. So I decided to start this blog, partly as therapy but also as a way to give my research meaning.</p>
<p><img decoding="async" src="https://shadowintheflame.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/11/Into-each-life-some-rain-must-fall1.png" style="width: 250px; height: auto; padding-right: 20px; float: right;" /></p>
<p>I was devastated when it was hacked in 2015 and malicious code was inserted that corrupted not only the website but the backups. But recently, thanks to the expertise of my chief technical officer, Jinkal, we were able to recover some of the articles and comments. We still lost a lot, all the articles after 2011, all the images and many of the comments. But I decided to revive it and once again, thanks to Jinkal, we recreated the original theme, added new images and a few updates. The updates are minor additions to, but do not replace, the original text, which I found is still as relevant today as it was then.</p>
<p>I find philosophy a great way to help me work out issues in my life. The advice I get from people like Friedrich Nietzsche, Michel de Montaigne, the ancient Greeks, Plato and Aristotle, to mention a few and the ancient Chinese philosophers, Confucius, Lao Tzu and many more have been invaluable in helping me overcome some major challenges  in my life. I am glad that our readers also benefited from their insights.  </p>
<p><img decoding="async" src="https://shadowintheflame.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/11/Into-each-life-some-rain-must-fall2.png" style="width: 250px; height: auto; padding-right: 20px; float: left;" /></p>
<p> I wanted to share both their philosophies and their way of looking at the world to show how they are still relevant today.</p>
<p>It was a great surprise to me when so many people found the site and spread the word, so our readership grew and a vibrant community formed through the comments section.</p>
<p>Some of the comments and questions formed the basis for articles and sometimes the commenter became the author of an article. I like those articles the best because I enjoy seeing readers participate. I wish we hadn’t lost so many of their articles.</p>
<p>Another thing we lost is the chapters after chapter three of the Man. I honestly don’t remember what I wrote in them or what the end was going to be, but if I pick it up from where we are, I will let the characters decide that.</p>
<p>I don’t know if this website will ever regain the readership we had back then but I do hope we regain the spirit of participation. That’s up to you.</p>
<p>Ric Vatner</p>
<p>Editor and Contributor.</p></div>
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<p>The post <a href="https://shadowintheflame.com/shadow-in-the-flame-is-back/">Shadow in the Flame is Back</a> appeared first on <a href="https://shadowintheflame.com">Shadow In The Flame</a>.</p>
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		<title>The Paradox of Bullying: How It Shapes Our World for Better and Worse</title>
		<link>https://shadowintheflame.com/the-paradox-of-bullying/</link>
					<comments>https://shadowintheflame.com/the-paradox-of-bullying/#comments</comments>
		
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ric Vatner]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 May 2023 20:55:37 +0000</pubDate>
				<category><![CDATA[Bullying and Discrimination]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Confronting Life's Challenges]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Featured Post]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Moral Dilemmas]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Philosophy in Daily Life]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Western Philosophy]]></category>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://baccentral.com/wip/?p=225</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[<p>When you think about it, the world would be a different place today if there were no bullies...</p>
<p>The post <a href="https://shadowintheflame.com/the-paradox-of-bullying/">The Paradox of Bullying: How It Shapes Our World for Better and Worse</a> appeared first on <a href="https://shadowintheflame.com">Shadow In The Flame</a>.</p>
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				<div class="et_pb_text_inner"><p style="text-align: center;"><img decoding="async" src="https://shadowintheflame.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/05/girl-being-bullied-stairs-front-view.jpg" style="width: 500px; height: auto;" /></p>
<h2 style="font-size:15px; font-weight:bold">Have you ever had a problem with bullies or a <em>bully</em>? </h2>
<p><span>I tend to <em>associate bullies with school,</em> because that was where I first met them, but some people meet them in the army, at work, in a volunteer organisation or even at home. In fact, you can meet them everywhere and anywhere. </span></p>
<p><span>Of course, it is not only people that act like <em>bullies</em>, countries can act like a <em>bully</em>. Nazi Germany, for example, and Russia at the present time. But of course, that is really their politicians, so we are back to bullies being people.</span></p>
<p><span>While bullying is a negative force, we cannot deny that it has played a significant role in shaping human history. It affects everything in society, our schools, our workplaces, our homes, our individual and national character, and the world. In short, it is, and has always been, a defining influence in our lives. </span></p>
<p><span>In this article, I want to look at why is bullying so endemic (widespread), so entrenched (so imbedded in our nature) and so difficult or possibly impossible to eradicate? What we can do about bullying, if anything?  </span></p>
<p><span>Let’s start by defining it because not everybody recognises it in all its guises. When something is as pervasive as bullying, it becomes normalised and you may not see it until it affects you, and even then, you may not recognise it for what it is straight away.</span></p>
<p><strong>The Nature of Bullies: Lessons Learned from the Good, the Bad, and the Ugly</strong></p>
<ol>
<li><strong><span> The Good</span></strong></li>
</ol>
<p><span>It’s hard to imagine there is anything good about being bullied, especially if you are the victim. But at the individual level and as a society, the unintentional, positive side effect that bullies have is to force us to look into the abyss of human nature and come to terms with the dark side. It’s a place we wouldn’t visit if we didn’t have to, but once we’ve been there, it changes us.</span></p>
<p><span>People who experienced bullying can use the experience to develop resilience and a strong sense of empathy, allowing them to become effective advocates for the disenfranchised and the abused. </span></p>
<p><span>So, although it may seem counterintuitive, bullies can have some positive influence by challenging our values and sense of fairness. Through their gross misbehaviour, they have sometimes been catalysts for change, inspiring the oppressed to rise against injustice and claim their rights. </span></p>
<p><span>One recent example of this is the “Me Too” movement, where, mainly women, who experienced bullying and abuse by executives and others in the entertainment industry, spoke up, one by one at first, but like a Mexican wave, it developed into a mass movement that has changed our worldview on this topic across all industries including all branches of government. `</span></p>
<ol>
<li><strong> The Bad</strong>.</li>
</ol>
<p>Bullying has undeniably left its mark on human history in many negative ways. The suffering it has inflicted is incalculable, with many victims experiencing long-term physical, emotional and psychological scars.<br />
<img decoding="async" src="https://shadowintheflame.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/05/collage-bullying.jpg" style="width: 450px; height: auto; float: right; padding-top: 30px; border-radius: 0px;" /><br />
Children who experience being bullied are more likely to suffer from depression, anxiety, and suicidal thoughts, which can persist into adulthood. Famous individuals, such as pop singer Lady Gaga and actor Chris Pratt, have spoken openly about their experiences with bullying and the impact it has had on their mental health and self-esteem.</p>
<p><span>People who experienced bullying a lot tend to learn how to shrink in public, how to not stand out in the crowd, how to become invisible. They learn to keep silent and don’t advocate for themselves or anyone else, which definitely reduces their quality of life.</span></p>
<p>Besides the personal toll bullies inflict, they are often active in society and organisations, where they reinforce their preferred hierarchies by any means they deem necessary. A bully does not care about being fair or ethical. Getting what they want is the only important criteria. Bullies encourage discrimination, exacerbate social tensions and actively demoralise their opposition for their own benefit.</p>
<p><span>Bullying thrives in environments where it can intensify and exploit ethnic, cultural, or gender differences. It doesn’t always look extreme in the beginning, it usually starts with minor acts of discrimination, but skilled bullies push the envelope further and further towards the extreme, for example, during the Rwandan Genocide in the 1990s. Long-standing prejudice and discrimination was inflamed by Hutu government propaganda towards the Tutsi minority and incited cold-blooded acts of violence. </span>Over the course of 100 days, up to half a million women and children were raped, sexually mutilated, or murdered. <span>Between 500,000–800,000 Tutsi men and boys were murdered, leaving a population that is 70% female and, of course, it left deep scars on the nation’s psyche.</span></p>
<p>Unfortunately, the behaviour of bullies can influence some people to adopt the same behaviours in order to be accepted into a gang or group and enjoy the perceived benefits this group enjoys, or sometimes, just to avoid being bullied themselves.</p>
<p>One current example of this is the circle of advisers around Putin, the President of Russia.</p>
<p>Pre Putin, the Politburo in the Soviet Union, their version of a cabinet in our system, had significant independence and power. It debated all policies proposed by the leader and could veto or approve them. Putin has replaced it with hand chosen “yes” men who now hold every office of power in Russian Politics, receive the benefit of their powerful position, but must rubber stamp Putin’s every decision, good, bad or ugly, to remain in office.</p>
<p>Under the old system, it is unlikely the Politburo would have approved Putin’s invasion of Ukraine in 2022, but I feel they would have approved his actions in Syria because the risk was a lot lower and the benefits in prestige and influence in that region, a lot higher.</p>
<p>Another political example is the Republican Party in the US, where Donald Trump, during his last days as President and after, bullied members of the party to support the lie that Biden did not win the election, he asserts Biden stole it from him through vote rigging.</p>
<p>Although discredited so many times, including a recent decision by Fox News, to pay Dominion Voting Systems $787.5 million, to avert a trial over its coverage of the false vote rigging claims, Trump still pushes the lie and bullies Republican Party candidates and members of Congress into supporting it. If they don’t they risk incurring his rage and the consequent loss of support of his loyal base, their position on committees and endorsement when they contest their primaries.</p>
<p><img decoding="async" src="https://shadowintheflame.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/05/martin-luthar-quote.jpg" style="width: 300px; height: auto; padding-right: 20px; float: left;" />Putin’s bullying tactics have cemented his power but led to disastrous policies that have caused the death and injury of tens of thousands of Russians and Ukrainians, destroyed cities, disrupted economies worldwide, set off rampant inflation which increased the price of food and fuel and much more, including the end of what little freedom of speech there was in Russia,. Not a bad effort, for one Bully.</p>
<p>Trump has cemented his power in the Republican Party but pushed them down a track that has seen its integrity seriously called into question and affects their ability to concentrate on the important issues while constantly defending the great lie. At a time of economic and political crisis around the world, this rift between those who “believe” the lie and those who don’t, has exacerbated the divide between the Republicans and the Democrats, and within the wider Republican Party base.</p>
<p>The disjoint between Trump&#8217;s base and the wider Republican Party base and voters in general led to inappropriate candidates being selected by Trump&#8217;s more active base, but most of them did not get elected in the recent mid-term elections. The once great Republican Party is now flailing and struggling to find its direction. This could hamper America’s ability to respond to domestic and world issues, and that could have serious consequences in the future. Another example of an effective but devastating action by one Bully that may have consequences for many in America and around the world.</p>
<p><strong><span>III. The Ugly</span></strong></p>
<p><span>Bullying is Ugly. That should be written above the door of every home, school, workplace and government department.</span></p>
<p><span>But the ugliest aspect of bullying is not its capacity to bring out the worst in humanity, it is humanity’s incapacity to deal with it. </span></p>
<p><span>I often wonder if there are more compassionate people in the world, or more bullies. I think I won’t lose my money betting on bullies. Religious leaders do it, Politicians do it, Boss’s do it, Parents do it and, You and I do it!      </span></p>
<p><span>The ugly thing about bullying is its omnipresence (it is present everywhere simultaneously). Most of it is small stuff, mainly at a personal level, but even that can be very destructive. However, wars, genocide, and human rights abuses are often driven by the actions of bullies in positions of power, which they used to foster and exploit fear and hatred to maintain control. I’m thinking of countries like Myanmar, Syria, Iran and many more. All of them are grim reminders of the potential consequences of unchecked bullying which led to aggression and cruelty.</span></p>
<p><strong><span>How Bullying and Discrimination becomes Entrenched in the Workplace</span></strong></p>
<p><span>When I left university, my first job was as a trainee manager for a large retail chain. When they promoted me to Section Manager, they transferred me to our largest suburban variety store. I had 3 long counters in my section. They were like a rectangle with the staff in the middle. Each counter had 3 staff and 4 in busy times. </span></p>
<p><span>My job was to make sure the section ran smoothly, but to be honest, the staff had more experience than me and ran the section efficiently. However, as a new section manager, with power over others for the first time, I found ways to bully them; Do this now, do that faster, refill the counter faster, and do something else, whatever it was. I thought being a boss meant I had to tell them how to do everything. I had to be seen to be the boss. </span></p>
<p><span>One day, my boss called me to his office to congratulate me. He told me I was the first manager he’d ever seen that got all 12 girls in the section, crying at the same time. The rest of what he said is unprintable, but if you’ve ever met an Aussie bushman, he would look tame next to this guy.</span><img decoding="async" src="https://shadowintheflame.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/05/1.jpg" style="width: 350px; height: auto; padding-right: 20px; float: right;" /></p>
<p><span>Thank goodness I met him at an early age. He pulled no punches as he told me, neither my staff nor he respected me that day. Thus began my training. Over the next few months, he taught me how to earn their respect, but it didn’t happen overnight because I had to learn a lot about myself and reach a point where I was prepared to change. </span></p>
<p><span>The position of section manager was a stepping stone to store manager and above for those who made it through the training and qualified to move to the next rung. While management skills were important, it was also a journey of discovery for the section manager. How would he handle authority and power? Could he relate to women of all ages and cultures, as well as to customers of all types, and could he do it when he was under stress? Once the company discovered your weak points, they taught you how to do the things you were not good at. But you had to be prepared to listen, learn, and change.</span></p>
<p><span>Much of what we learned was about managing our self and our urges to lose our temper or bully staff to get things done. We learned the secret, train new staff and then respect them and give them the authority to do their job. Maintain a discreet, watchful presence but only interfere when they are doing something wrong.</span></p>
<p><span>It was the non-skills training, the personal development, that I don’t see many company’s doing these days. It seems they prefer to poach experienced staff from other companies, but the question is, who trains the new people and do those poached staff have this training?</span></p>
<p><strong><span>Genes are not the only thing we inherit</span></strong></p>
<p><span>Now you may have noticed that I always refer to the section managers as men and the staff as women. That is not me being politically incorrect. There were no female section managers in my day, and I don’t remember any male sales staff behind the counter. Looking back, it amazes me how a company that knew the value of fostering empathy, compassion, and respect for one another did not respect women enough to let them apply for or be promoted to roles in management. I don’t know where that policy originated, but it was so entrenched that none of us noticed it. </span></p>
<p><span>The female staff never questioned it. I don’t know if that was because they knew it was futile or because they had never seen a female section manager and, therefore, never conceived it was possible. We section managers never wondered why there were no female or black section managers, there just weren’t. Every store manager and every senior manager in the company was a white male, so from day one, that just seemed normal. </span></p>
<p><span>But someone, or the board and / or, the C-Level executives, made the decision that managers were white males and sales staff were white females. I never saw it in writing and perhaps if I had, I would have noticed it and thought about it. It was never discussed, but I doubt HR ever hired a female trainee section manager or that any store manager considered hiring male or black sales staff. In fact, I am pretty sure the staff would have regarded it as strange if they did. </span></p>
<p><span>That is how a culture that is certainly discriminatory and a subtle form of bullying gets entrenched in an organisation and why it is so hard to change. </span></p>
<p><strong><span>How do organisations such as religious, business, and government entrench discrimination into the culture, especially extreme discrimination? </span></strong></p>
<p><span>The answer, of course, is the slippery slope approach. </span></p>
<p><strong><span>Discrimination and bullying are inherited traits.</span></strong></p>
<p><span>When I attended training to become a Life Line volunteer councillor, one of the first things they taught us was, poverty is inherited. If a child grows up in a home where one or both parents receive welfare or have low-paying jobs, they encounter so many disadvantages from malnutrition to low self-esteem and lack of ambition that they are, almost doomed to experience the same level of poverty their parents have. This happens so often that Lifeline coined the term, “poverty is inherited”.</span></p>
<p><span>I think discrimination and bullying are on the same level and therefore are also inheritable traits. </span></p>
<p><span>For example, if the culture has been conditioned to accept that women are less equal than men, then it is easy to introduce ceilings on promotion for women, unequal pay rates, domestic abuse, and even to expect them to be subservient to men. </span><br />
<img decoding="async" src="https://shadowintheflame.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/05/2.jpg" style="width: 350px; height: auto; padding-right: 20px; float: left;" /><br />
<span>When you want to promote another discrimination, for example against hiring other ethnicities, or disabled people, or not providing adequate social service benefits, not looking after the aged with respect, and so on, people accept it more easily because they have already bought the concept, that when there are differences between people it is ok to discriminate against some of them. In fact, some people are glad to have someone they can discriminate against, even if only in status.  </span></p>
<p><span>What I hope you can see now is that discrimination and bullying build upon previous instances that condition us, over time, to accept such behaviour. If we were starting today, it would be harder to embrace most of these malicious behaviours because people would not accept them. However, these behaviours have been prevalent and unchecked since humans have existed, so the behaviour is already entrenched in our psyche. You might say it’s in our DNA. Most of the time, people are blind to it. They accept it because it has always been that way or they benefit from it and have no motivation to change it.  </span></p>
<p><strong><span>From Awareness to Action: Strategies for Mitigating the Consequences of Bullying and Discrimination</span></strong></p>
<p><span>After our discussion above, bullying in the workplace or anywhere does not seem so surprising. In fact, it would be strange if we expected it did not occur.  </span></p>
<p><span>But does that mean we have to accept the way it is? Is there no possibility of changing it? </span></p>
<p><span>I believe bullying and discrimination are so deeply embedded in the human psyche that it is impossible to eradicate these harmful behaviours completely in our lifetime or probably ever. </span></p>
<p><span>I hope I’m wrong about the ever, but I know I am right about in our lifetime. I do believe we can take action to mitigate the level and consequences of them in our lifetime and from there, ever will just take a little longer.</span></p>
<p><span>In my story about becoming a section manager for a retail giant, I told you I was a bit of a bully when I started because that was what I had learned at school and at home. My mum was a bit of a bully. I don’t blame her; she was a full-time homemaker with four active kids to keep in line and that was how her parents kept their kids in line. However, I changed, and that was in part because of the training that taught me how to get things done without bullying. </span></p>
<p><span>Luckily, in my family and as a kid, I never experienced discrimination. My parents never judged people by their race or colour only by their actions. Woe and betide if you did the wrong thing by any of their children, but no one ever had to ask for help. They always got it to the full extent that my parents could provide it. </span></p>
<p><span>That and my own experiences enabled me to see that prejudice and discrimination were destructive. Alternatively, embracing diversity widened my circle of friends, made me happier, and increased my knowledge of other cultures and other approaches to everything, including problem solving, which helped me be more successful in later life.  </span></p>
<p><span>There are some big lessons here. First, upbringing is so important. It is not what your parents tell you; it is watching how they live their life that helps develop your character. I learned how to bully because that was what I experienced, and it became normal for me. I learned not to discriminate because I never saw it at home. I saw it at school, but my parents would never countenance such behaviour, so I learned to never do it.</span></p>
<p><span>Second, education is crucial and can make a difference. We can’t all be lucky in the way our parents bring us up, but education can either entrench bullying and discrimination or it can encourage us to think about it and decide if that is the best way to go. </span></p>
<p><img decoding="async" src="https://shadowintheflame.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/05/quote-difference.jpg" style="width: 450px; height: auto; padding-right: 20px; float: right;" /><span>These two things are so important because the kids we educate today will be the parents of tomorrow. If we teach them to hate, to bully and to discriminate between human beings based on race or colour or sexuality, then that is what they will probably teach their children and bullying will continue forever. </span></p>
<p><span>Education, building awareness and cultivating strategies for change can empower people to counteract their worst inclinations. For the bullied, education, at home and at school, can develop their resilience in the face of bullying and discrimination. For everyone, education can help people imagine and then nurture a more compassionate and inclusive world. But I accept not everyone wants to create such a world, their prejudices are too entrenched, or they don’t believe such a world is possible and they want to protect themselves and their children from this one. </span></p>
<p><span>Fear is one of the greatest inhibitors of change, and we have to recognise and understand that. That’s why the next step is important.  </span></p>
<p><strong><span>Developing Empathy and Compassion</span></strong></p>
<p><span>Encouraging open conversations about personal experiences and perspectives can help people develop a deeper understanding of the effects of these behaviours. The retail company I worked for after university did this regarding some aspects of personal development, but not others. I have no illusions that the training was altruistic. They wanted us to be efficient managers and reduce staff turnover through poor management practices. It worked as far as it went, but they were blind to things like discrimination, and so it took many more years than it needed to, for women to ascend to management roles. </span></p>
<p><span>That taught me we have to be careful when we design our education programmes so we don’t unintentionally build in behaviours we don’t want to foster. Or we get them independently reviewed so that we reveal their biases and prejudices and make a transparent decision to include or exclude them, and tell people.</span></p>
<p><strong><span>Creating Safe Spaces and Support Systems</span></strong></p>
<p><span>If you want to change any entrenched habit, like smoking or drinking, you know you have to take conscious, proactive steps. You know you will most likely fail a few times before you succeed, or you may fail. That’s where support groups are very helpful. Well, it is much the same, if not harder, to address bullying and discriminatory behaviour, but the steps are the same.   </span></p>
<p><span>Schools, workplaces, and community organizations can play a huge role in getting the conversation started by creating safe spaces and support systems where people from the community can come to discuss their experiences and receive guidance on how to cope and respond. </span></p>
<p><span>It is important that people see the community is taking this issue seriously, especially the people who are doing the bullying and discrimination. If the community do not regard bullying as an issue, the bullies have no reason to rethink their behaviour and rarely hear the sad stories of the victims. It may not change their point of view, but they will have to think twice before they act if they know we do not condone such behaviour in the community. </span></p>
<p><strong><span>Education and Training</span></strong></p>
<p><span>But mostly I believe it is important that we make young people aware of the issues and have the opportunity to discuss them. They may not realise what they are experiencing is abuse, or that they are being conditioned to abuse or discriminate against others. </span></p>
<p><span>Raising awareness of bullying and discrimination through education and training is crucial for mitigating their consequences. By providing workshops and seminars on topics such as: </span></p>
<ul>
<li><span>bystander intervention, </span></li>
<li><span>conflict resolution, and </span></li>
<li><span>cultural sensitivity, </span></li>
</ul>
<p style="float: left;"><img decoding="async" src="https://shadowintheflame.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/05/educational-quote.jpg" style="width: 450px; height: auto; padding-right: 20px;" /><br />
<span class="imgcaption">Promoting Inclusivity and Diversity</span></p>
<p><span>schools and organizations can equip individuals with the tools they need to recognise and address these issues. Education programmes like these empower people to stand up against these harmful behaviours and support those who have been affected.</span></p>
<p><strong><span>Promoting Inclusivity and Diversity</span></strong></p>
<p><span>If we want to create lasting change, it is essential to promote inclusivity and diversity within communities and organizations at least as often as the bullies exploit ethnic, cultural, or gender differences. </span></p>
<p><span>Encouraging diverse representation in leadership roles, fostering open dialogue about different perspectives, and celebrating cultural differences can help break down barriers and challenge stereotypes. By creating an inclusive environment, we can reduce the likelihood of bullying and discrimination occurring so regularly and overtly. We can empower individuals to support one another in the face of adversity and show the bullies they have little to gain and a lot to lose.</span></p>
<p><strong><span>Taking Action and Being an Ally</span></strong></p>
<p><span>Finally, taking action and being an ally to those affected by bullying and discrimination is crucial. If you witness bullying or discrimination, speak up and support the person being targeted. By intervening and offering help, you can disrupt the cycle of harmful behaviours and show solidarity with the victim. In addition, standing up against instances of bullying and discrimination can inspire others to do the same, fostering a culture of empathy and support within the community.</span><br />
<img decoding="async" src="https://shadowintheflame.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/05/Simple-Photo-Woman-Quote.jpg" style="width: 350px; height: auto; float: left; padding-right: 20px;" /></p>
<p><span>In conclusion, if we want to reverse the spread of bullying and discrimination, we have to accept this is a long-term project to squeeze the condition out of our psyche and DNA. Building resilience in the face of bullying and discrimination requires a multifaceted approach that includes raising awareness, fostering empathy, creating support systems, education and implementing policies that challenge the power dynamics that perpetuate bullying and discrimination.</span></p>
<p><span>If you have had an experience with a <em><u>bully</u></em> that you would like to share with us please add it to the comments below here.</span></div>
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<p>The post <a href="https://shadowintheflame.com/the-paradox-of-bullying/">The Paradox of Bullying: How It Shapes Our World for Better and Worse</a> appeared first on <a href="https://shadowintheflame.com">Shadow In The Flame</a>.</p>
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		<title>Confucius on Moral Action and Human Nature &#8211; Part 1</title>
		<link>https://shadowintheflame.com/confucius-on-moral-action-and-human-nature-part-1/</link>
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		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ric Vatner]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Apr 2011 15:30:30 +0000</pubDate>
				<category><![CDATA[Chinese Philosophy]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Featured Post]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Western Philosophy]]></category>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://baccentral.com/wip/chinesephilosophy/?p=7</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[<p>Confucian thinking about Moral Action really got going about 200 BC ...</p>
<p>The post <a href="https://shadowintheflame.com/confucius-on-moral-action-and-human-nature-part-1/">Confucius on Moral Action and Human Nature &#8211; Part 1</a> appeared first on <a href="https://shadowintheflame.com">Shadow In The Flame</a>.</p>
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<p><strong><span>The History of the Philosophy of Moral Action in Ancient China</span></strong></p>
<p><span>People often say that the great Eastern Texts; by which they generally mean, the Analects of Confucius, The Tao Te Ching and Buddhist texts, are not really philosophy but something else, such as religion or mysticism.</span></p>
<p><span>However, while the Analects and the Tao Te Ching are the two most translated Ancient Chinese texts, they are probably not the most philosophically rigorous works in these genres. To really appreciate the philosophical discussion that has gone on in China over the last 2,500 years, it is necessary to read some disciples of these great Chinese thinkers as well.</span></p>
<p><strong><span>Lack of Quality Translations a Problem for Western Readers</span></strong></p>
<p><span>And therein lies the problem. I believe that our lack of appreciation of Ancient Chinese philosophy is due to Western ignorance of most of the works that have been written, rather than to any failing in the philosophical works themselves.</span></p>
<p><span>And that ignorance is mainly because of the scarcity of translations of the texts until quite recently (the last 200 years). However, there is still a long way to go and there are still many more great texts to be translated in the future. Unfortunately, until then, they are not available to those of us who cannot read Ancient or modern Chinese today.</span></p></div>
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					<h4 class="et_pb_module_header">Confucius on Moral Action </h4>
					
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				<div class="et_pb_text_inner"><p><span>But one translation does not open a door to greater understanding. In my library, I have multiple translations of almost every ancient philosopher’s works and of the works written in another language other than English, and each one is slightly different and sometimes very different. No translator ever gets the total essence of a book right all the time, so it is necessary to read a variety of translations of the same book to get a better understanding of it. </span></p>
<p><span>The lack of excellent translations of the more important works of later Confucian philosophers such as Mencius, Xun Zi, and the Taoist Chuang Tzu and others has been a giant hurdle for Western philosophers that has hindered their understanding of the value of these works. </span></p>
<p><span>Translating Ancient Chinese to modern Chinese is hard enough, but translating it into English or French or German is a 100 times more difficult and most translations get some of the text or the concepts they are translating wrong.</span></p>
<p><span>In this article, I want to concentrate on Confucian Thinking, but because that is also a huge topic, I will look at just one of the philosophical issues followers of Confucius have debated over the centuries. In doing so, I hope to establish that the ancient Chinese philosophers were as rigorous as any in Western Philosophy.</span></p>
<p><span>The area I want to discuss is</span></p>
<p><strong><span>The Debate over Confucian’s view of Moral Action and Human Nature</span></strong><span>.</span></p>
<p><span>Basically:</span></p>
<ul>
<li><span>What do Confucians think about Moral Action?</span></li>
<li><span>Is moral action possible in Confucian Philosophy? or put another way</span></li>
<li><span>Is it possible for a person to Act Morally?</span></li>
</ul>
<p><span>Now I doubt that there are many people who have not heard of or read the “Sayings of Confucius” known as the Analects. In fact, The Analects has probably been read by more people than have read the bible. But in real life, Confucius favoured a style of teaching later made famous by the ancient Greek philosophers like Socrates, where he would take his students into the garden and just discuss issues or answer questions. He actually wrote very little down.</span></p>
<p style="float: right;"><img decoding="async" src="https://shadowintheflame.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/05/confucius.jpg" style="width: 350px; height: auto; padding-left: 20px;" /> <span class="imgcaption"><br />Confucius</span></p>
<p><span>In fact, Confucius did not write the Analects. It was compiled long after his death from notes made by his students and from texts written by them and others.</span></p>
<p><span>From a philosophical point of view the huge body of work written about Confucian thinking by second and third generation Confucian philosophers is probably far more important for many reasons, mainly because they are more philosophically rigorous, Let’s face it, they had more time to digest and think about it and of course they had vigorous debates over it which was a luxury denied to Confucius..</span></p>
<p><strong><span>Moral Action Becomes an Issue about 200 BC</span></strong></p>
<p><span>Confucian scholars only started thinking seriously about Moral Action around 200 BC (Confucius was born in 552 BC and he died in 479 BC). The thing that prompted this line of inquiry was the terrible times China experienced during the Warring States period, which was a time of extreme brutality. This got the philosophers thinking about questions of Human Nature and the relationship between the mind and our desires. The issues they discussed included such topics as:</span></p>
<p style="float: left;"><img decoding="async" src="https://shadowintheflame.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/05/question.jpg" /><span class="imgcaption"><br />Confucius</span></p>
<ul>
<li><span>What is wrong with human nature?</span></li>
<li><span>How can we teach people about or revise Human Nature?     </span></li>
<li><span>What is the relationship of the mind to desire?</span></li>
<li><span>How can we control our desire? </span></li>
<li><span>Is desire the cause of everything evil?</span></li>
</ul>
<p><span>The disciple of Confucius most favoured by the Chinese was a chap called Mencius and in later dynasties most people just studied him because his commentary on the Analects and on Confucius was so rigorous, they regarded him as the prophet disciple that clarified everything.</span></p>
<p><span>In Part 2 we will briefly review Mencius on human nature and then look at what some of his critics had to say on the subject.</span></p>
<p><span><strong><a href="https://shadowintheflame.com/the-confucian-philosophy-of-moral-action-part-2/">Part 2</a></strong>:  <strong>The Confucian Philosophy of Moral Action</strong></span></p>
<p><span> <strong>————————————————————</strong></span></p>
<p>This is part one<span> of a three-part article by Ric Vatner who has been a keen student of Ancient Chinese Philosophy for over 20 years.</span></p>
<p><span>Ric’s father, who was Russian, grew up in China before World War ll and imparted his knowledge of the culture and philosophy of the Chinese people to Ric through the stories he told him as a child. In later life, Ric and his father often discussed or, more correctly, debated, philosophical issues, with Ric advocating the Western views he learned at school or church and his father balancing that by outlining the Chinese philosophy perspective.</span></p>
<p>Ric says “I found debating my father quite frustrating as he had a good understanding of both the Christian and Jewish religions and Eastern Philosophy and he was a great Chess and Bridge player so just as I thought I was about to score the winning point he would trump me with another approach. I really enjoyed those discussions, and I slowly learned not to be so narrow-minded, when thinking about issues.”</p>
<div>
<h3>All the Episodes of this series on Moral Action</h3>
<p><a href="https://shadowintheflame.com/confucius-on-moral-action-and-human-nature-part-1/">Confucius on Moral Action and Human Nature &#8211; Part 1</a></p>
<p><a href="https://shadowintheflame.com/the-confucian-philosophy-of-moral-action-part-2/">The Confucian Philosophy of Moral Action &#8211; Part 2</a></p>
<p><a href="https://shadowintheflame.com/xun-zi-moral-action-and-human-nature-part-3/">Xun Zi on Moral Action and Human Nature &#8211; Part 3</a></p>
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<p>The post <a href="https://shadowintheflame.com/confucius-on-moral-action-and-human-nature-part-1/">Confucius on Moral Action and Human Nature &#8211; Part 1</a> appeared first on <a href="https://shadowintheflame.com">Shadow In The Flame</a>.</p>
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		<title>The Confucian Philosophy of Moral Action &#8211; Part 2</title>
		<link>https://shadowintheflame.com/the-confucian-philosophy-of-moral-action-part-2/</link>
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		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ric Vatner]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Mar 2011 12:06:50 +0000</pubDate>
				<category><![CDATA[Chinese Philosophy]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Featured Post]]></category>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://baccentral.com/wip/chinesephilosophy/?p=11</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[<p>Mencius was saying Human Nature is good because the heart / mind has 4 sprouts. </p>
<p>The post <a href="https://shadowintheflame.com/the-confucian-philosophy-of-moral-action-part-2/">The Confucian Philosophy of Moral Action &#8211; Part 2</a> appeared first on <a href="https://shadowintheflame.com">Shadow In The Flame</a>.</p>
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				<div class="et_pb_text_inner"><p style="text-align: center;"><img decoding="async" src="https://shadowintheflame.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/05/Chaung-Tzu.jpg" style="width: 550px; height: auto;" /><span class="imgcaption"><br />
Chinese Philosophers</span></p>
<p><strong><span>Mencius on Human Nature</span></strong></p>
<p><span>In part one I introduced you to Mencius who was a second generation Confucian and basically he says:</span><img decoding="async" src="http://shadowintheflame.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/11/12837e1d-8cfe-4da4-aa3c-c57241546fce.png" style="width: 400px; height: auto; float: left;" /></p>
<div style="padding-top: 20px;">
<p><span> “Human Nature is good and the reason we become bad is that we forget our own heart.”</span></p>
<p><span>But like all ancient Chinese texts his writing is not that easy to translate into English, so in the Chinese form what is meant by Heart, is usually translated as; Heart / Mind, because it is very hard to distinguish between the two when used in the Chinese text. </span></div>
<div style="text-align: center; display: block; font-size: 15px; font-weight: bold; line-height: 15px;">
<p><em><span>Sometimes it means emotion like:</span></em></p>
<p style="text-align: center;"><span>The heart can love</span></p>
<p style="text-align: center;"><span>The heart can feel</span></p>
<p style="text-align: center;"><span>The heart can hurt</span></p>
<p style="text-align: center;"><em><span>Sometimes it is used to mean</span></em></p>
<p style="text-align: center;"><span>The heart judges</span></p>
<p style="text-align: center;"><span>The Heart reflects</span></p>
<p style="text-align: center;"><span>The heart deliberates</span></p>
</div>
<p><strong><span>Mencius’s Four Sprouts of Human Nature</span></strong></p>
<p style=" float:right;display:block"><img decoding="async" src="https://shadowintheflame.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/05/Mencius.jpg" style="width: 350px; height: auto; padding-left: 20px;" /><span class="imgcaption"><br />
Mencius</span></p>
<p><span>So heart / mind is really the same thing in Chinese philosophy. When people talk about the heart you can think of it as the mind in western philosophy.</span></p>
<p><span>Mencius was saying; Human Nature is good because the heart / mind has 4 sprouts. He believed we are born with these original sprouts in us</span></p>
<ol>
<li><span>The spout of Compassion</span></li>
<li><span>the sprout of shame</span></li>
<li><span>the sprout of a sense of propriety (politeness, decorum, respectfulness, modesty, good manners, decency)</span></li>
<li><span>the sprout of what’s right and wrong</span></li>
</ol>
<p><span>Human nature is like a crop – you have to cultivate it and then it will grow naturally. He takes into consideration we may grow up in a harsh environment that prevents one or all of the sprouts from growing, but if you follow the natural path, the sprouts will grow into a “good crop”.</span></p>
<p><span>So Mencius was saying we have these things already in us. If you perform a bad action, it just means you didn’t pay attention to your heart – you abandoned it and followed your desire. Or, to put it another way; you follow your body and that’s your problem. Mencius famously said:</span></p>
<ul>
<li><span>Don’t listen to your ears</span></li>
<li><span>But listen to your heart</span></li>
</ul>
<p><span>What he means is you can’t let your senses lead you astray because the senses are about desires, so if you let your senses control your actions, you will inevitably do bad things. Mencius said if you just develop these sprouts in your heart, it&#8217;s like a fire starting up. You just need to jump start them and then they will keep growing them self.</span></p>
<p><strong><span>Chuang Tzu on Mencius</span></strong></p>
<p><span>At this point I would like to introduce you to a famous Taoist because he picked up on what Mencius said. His name is Chuang Tzu.</span><img decoding="async" src="https://shadowintheflame.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/05/Chuang-Tzu-.png" style="width: 450px; height: auto; float: right; padding-right: 20px;" /></p>
<p><span>Chuang Tzu said</span></p>
<p><span>“No, no you can’t let the heart guide you because the heart is where all judgments are made, it’s trying to tell you this is right, this is wrong and that’s the core of all disorder. The heart tells you; this is good or this is bad so when someone disagrees with you, you get into a fight with the person and then there are arguments, disagreements and strife. </span></p>
<p><span>So Chuang Tzu modified Mencius’ saying and said</span></p>
<ul>
<li><span>Don’t listen to your ears</span></li>
<li><span>Don’t listen to your heart</span></li>
<li><span>Listen to your energy</span></li>
</ul>
<p><span>He said “Why do you listen to your heart. You have so many organs in your body, what’s the difference between the heart and the liver or lung anyway. Why do you let your heart be the guide? Actually there is no difference, if you look at them they are all one, they are all part of the whole”.  </span></div>
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					<h4 class="et_pb_module_header">Confucius on Moral Action </h4>
					
					<audio class="wp-audio-shortcode" id="audio-11-2" preload="none" style="width: 100%;" controls="controls"><source type="audio/wav" src="http://shadowintheflame.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/11/Confucius-on-Moral-Action-Part-2.wav?_=2" /><a href="http://shadowintheflame.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/11/Confucius-on-Moral-Action-Part-2.wav">http://shadowintheflame.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/11/Confucius-on-Moral-Action-Part-2.wav</a></audio>
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				<div class="et_pb_text_inner"><p><span>Chuang Tzu said;</span></p>
<p><span>“Try not to differentiate things with your heart, just listen, just see everything as one and then you will be peaceful, calm and you won’t be so disturbed by emotion”.</span></p>
<p><span>Chuang Tzu introduced two major concepts, one is the concept of <strong>STILLNESS</strong> and he used the metaphor of a mirror. so “you should be still as the mirror – you should just reflect whatever comes in and then you don’t make judgments so you can objectively see things as they are”.</span></p>
<p><span>The other concept he introduced was the concept of <strong>EMPTINESS</strong>. This means that you don’t listen with your ears, you don’t listen with your heart, you listen with your energy. So in this way it is pure emptiness.</span></p>
<p><strong><span>Xun Zi – The Traitor </span></strong></p>
<p style="float: right;"><img decoding="async" src="https://shadowintheflame.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/05/chinese-philosopher-xun-zi-image2.jpg" style="width: 400px; height: auto;" /><span class="imgcaption"><br />Xun Zi</span></p>
<p><span>The next person I want to introduce you to is Xun Zi he is a third generation Confucianist but many followers of Confucius hate him. They see him as a traitor because he basically said Human Nature is bad and Confucianists don’t like that interpretation.</span></p>
<p><span>They think he is secretly a follower of Taoism and that he is trying to make Confucianism into something else (as they did with Taoism – I will discuss this in another article). The other thing they hold against him is that one of his pupils, Han Fe started another school of philosophy called the Legalists, and so they blame him for that.</span></p>
<p><span>Xun Zi also uses Chuang Tzu’s concept of Stillness and Emptiness but interestingly, he changes them a little.</span></p>
<p><span>Remember, Chuang Tzu said stillness is like a mirror but Xun Zi said it is ridiculous to say we can be unmoved by emotion, that’s not the case. We are ineffably moved by emotion. When the wind blows, our mind moves, but the thing is not to let the mud underneath disturb your perception – disturb your clarity. His idea was that you should be still like a pan of water. So in this way it is not complete stillness – when the wind blows you will still be moved like ripples on the water.</span></p>
<p><span>He says do not let your dreams or fantasy or false beliefs disturb or distort your perception – that’s called clarity – that’s called STILLNESS.</span></p>
<p><span>And Emptiness is not about listening to your Chi and forgetting about your heart – he says because our heart stores things – it’s like a storehouse – something will come in, you have to store it somewhere – you can’t just get rid of everything. But as long as you can keep room in your heart, you don’t let what’s been stored interfere with what’s coming in – then that’s fine.</span></p>
<p><span>So Xun Zi’s idea of emptiness is not letting what we have stored, that’s your memories, your assumptions, your biases, interfere with any new information you are going to get.</span></p>
<p>In <strong><a href="https://shadowintheflame.com/xun-zi-moral-action-and-human-nature-part-3/">Part 3 we discuss: Moral Action and Human Nature, is human nature evil?</a></strong></p>
<div>
<h3>All the Episodes of this series on Moral Action</h3>
<p><a href="https://shadowintheflame.com/confucius-on-moral-action-and-human-nature-part-1/">Confucius on Moral Action and Human Nature &#8211; Part 1</a></p>
<p><a href="https://shadowintheflame.com/the-confucian-philosophy-of-moral-action-part-2/">The Confucian Philosophy of Moral Action &#8211; Part 2</a></p>
<p><a href="https://shadowintheflame.com/xun-zi-moral-action-and-human-nature-part-3/">Xun Zi on Moral Action and Human Nature &#8211; Part 3</a></p>
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<p>The post <a href="https://shadowintheflame.com/the-confucian-philosophy-of-moral-action-part-2/">The Confucian Philosophy of Moral Action &#8211; Part 2</a> appeared first on <a href="https://shadowintheflame.com">Shadow In The Flame</a>.</p>
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		<title>Xun Zi on Moral Action and Human Nature &#8211; Part 3</title>
		<link>https://shadowintheflame.com/xun-zi-moral-action-and-human-nature-part-3/</link>
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		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ric Vatner]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Feb 2011 12:25:01 +0000</pubDate>
				<category><![CDATA[Chinese Philosophy]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Featured Post]]></category>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://baccentral.com/wip/chinesephilosophy/?p=14</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[<p>Confucians say “this is not what we Confucianists have in mind ...</p>
<p>The post <a href="https://shadowintheflame.com/xun-zi-moral-action-and-human-nature-part-3/">Xun Zi on Moral Action and Human Nature &#8211; Part 3</a> appeared first on <a href="https://shadowintheflame.com">Shadow In The Flame</a>.</p>
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				<div class="et_pb_text_inner"><p style="text-align: center;"><img decoding="async" src="https://shadowintheflame.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/05/chinese-philosopher-image-xun-zi.jpg" style="width: 550px; height: auto;" /><span class="imgcaption"><br />Xun Zi</span></p>
<p><strong><span>Xun Zi – Human Nature is Evil</span></strong></p>
<p><span>Xun Zi said there is something wrong with Mencius’s view that Human Nature is good. He thought that view was too idealistic and didn’t believe that was really the case. Human Nature, he said, is not really good.</span></p>
<p><span>His view was more Machiavellian; he believed that Human Nature is bad, so you just have to control it. (And from this you get a hint of how the Legalist philosophy grew out of this line of argument) </span></p>
<p><span> </span></p>
<p style="float: left;"><img decoding="async" src="https://shadowintheflame.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/05/xun-zi-quote.png" style="float: left; width: 390px; height: auto;" /></p>
<p><span>Xun Zi says, “if I perform a good moral action, that is just because I am scared of punishment or I’m scared of the loss I might incur such as loss of face. I do it <strong>not</strong> because I intrinsically want to but because I’m scared of the consequences of not doing it. So in that sense that’s not real morality.”</span></p>
<p><strong><span>There is No Moral Action – Only Fear of Consequences</span></strong></p>
<p><span>Some Confucian philosophers interpret Xun Zi as saying: There is no moral action there are just potential choices, and each has its consequences.</span></p>
<p><span>For example, imagine I’m a kid and I’m hungry and I fight with my brother over a piece of cake. Our mother sees us and punishes both of us, and neither of us gets the cake. So through this error or action, I learn to suppress my desire to fight so my mum will see us both being good and maybe give us 2 cakes. </span></p>
<p><span>So in that sense when you are performing a right moral act, doing the right thing, you are just calculating your long term best interests, your long-term benefit and you are making a rational choice. So ultimately it is about satisfying your own desire, your own self-interest.</span></p>
<p><span>Confucians say “this is not what we Confucianists have in mind – real moral actions are those performed intrinsically for the sake of doing it.</span></p>
<div style="text-align: center;">
<p><span>Not because I like it</span></p>
<p><span>Not because I desire it</span></p>
<p><span>Not because it satisfies me</span></p>
<p><span>Just because it is Moral</span></p>
</div>
<p><span>So these guys hate Xun Zi because he starts from the opposite premise that they hold true – which is, that Human Nature is good</span></p>
<p><strong><span>Support for Xun Zi</span></strong></p>
<p style="text-align: center;"><img decoding="async" src="https://shadowintheflame.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/05/chinese-philosopher-xun-zi.jpg" style="width: 550px; height: auto;" /><span class="imgcaption"><br />Xun Zi</span></p>
<p><span>Another group of Confucian philosophers, who are more inclined to support Xun Zi, say:</span></p>
<p><span>I’m not sure that is what Confucius was saying, so if that is what you are going to use against Xun Zi you have a problem. They say, If you go back to Mencius, he says,</span></p>
<p><span>“If we perform a moral action that is because the 4 moral sprouts in our heart prompted it, but it is also because you like it. It satisfies you, it is something that satisfies your heart’s desire.” So in that case, there is still a case of satisfying your own desire. It’s just that in this case you happen to desire to do good. (That’s their interpretation of Mencius)</span></p></div>
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					<h4 class="et_pb_module_header">Confucius on Moral Action </h4>
					
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				<div class="et_pb_text_inner"><span>So is it really intrinsically a moral action and if it&#8217;s not, you can’t use it as an argument against Xun Zi.</span></p>
<p><span>This led them to ask “How is moral action possible in Chinese Philosophy?”</span></p>
<p><span>“Is this something that has to be guided by or driven by desire or is this something that’s performed for the sake of that thing itself?”</span></p>
<p><span>Or</span></p>
<p><span>Is it something we are told to do – is it something that is welded externally to me that’s not part of me? It’s just something that is forced on me.</span></p>
<p><span>This is the question that people are still struggling with today.</span></p>
<p><strong><span>Post Script</span></strong></p>
<p><span>In ancient Chinese Philosophy there were at one time four themes on human nature</span></p>
<ul>
<li><span>Human Nature is Good</span></li>
<li><span>Human Nature is bad</span></li>
<li><span>Human Nature is both Good and bad</span></li>
<li><span>Human Nature is neither Good nor Bad, it just about a later development.</span></li>
</ul>
<p><span>I’m not sure why the latter two views are not talked about any more in Chinese Philosophy but when Confucianism was adopted as the state doctrine / orthodoxy by the Han Dynasty, things got stereotyped and conflicting views were squeezed out.</span></p>
<p><span>Mencius was against the view that human nature is an empty vessel – he used the famous example – if you walk by a lake and see a child drowning it&#8217;s not possible that you don’t feel anything. You must feel something and that something is just the sprout of compassion telling you to act. If you listen to it, you will rescue the child, but if you listen to your senses of desire “Oh the water is too cold or I’ll ruin my good clothes, for example, you would stop yourself from helping. So Mencius is quite adamant that Human Nature is good.</span></p>
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<h3>All the Episodes of this series on Moral Action</h3>
<p><a href="https://shadowintheflame.com/confucius-on-moral-action-and-human-nature-part-1/">Confucius on Moral Action and Human Nature &#8211; Part 1</a></p>
<p><a href="https://shadowintheflame.com/the-confucian-philosophy-of-moral-action-part-2/">The Confucian Philosophy of Moral Action &#8211; Part 2</a></p>
<p><a href="https://shadowintheflame.com/xun-zi-moral-action-and-human-nature-part-3/">Xun Zi on Moral Action and Human Nature &#8211; Part 3</a></p>
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<p>The post <a href="https://shadowintheflame.com/xun-zi-moral-action-and-human-nature-part-3/">Xun Zi on Moral Action and Human Nature &#8211; Part 3</a> appeared first on <a href="https://shadowintheflame.com">Shadow In The Flame</a>.</p>
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		<title>Sex and the Philosopher who Specialised in Feeling Wretched</title>
		<link>https://shadowintheflame.com/sex-and-the-philosopher-who-specialised-in-feeling-wretched/</link>
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		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ric Vatner]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 04 Oct 2010 23:00:04 +0000</pubDate>
				<category><![CDATA[Featured Post]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Nietzsche]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Philosophy in Daily Life]]></category>
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					<description><![CDATA[<p>Most biographers have generally assumed Nietzsche suffered from some paralyzing mental or...</p>
<p>The post <a href="https://shadowintheflame.com/sex-and-the-philosopher-who-specialised-in-feeling-wretched/">Sex and the Philosopher who Specialised in Feeling Wretched</a> appeared first on <a href="https://shadowintheflame.com">Shadow In The Flame</a>.</p>
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				<div class="et_pb_text_inner"><p style="float: left;"><img decoding="async" src="https://shadowintheflame.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/05/Nietzsche-1.jpg" style="width: 350px; height: auto; padding-right: 10px;" /><span class="imgcaption">Friedrich Nietzsche</span></p>
<p>Chapter 3 of The Man draws strongly on the philosophy of <em>Friedrich Nietzsche</em>, certainly one of the greatest philosophical writers of the nineteenth century and one of my personal favourites. So before I embark on the analysis of chapter 3 I thought it would be a good idea to introduce you to <em>Nietzsche</em>.</p>
<p>This is not a biography; It is more a snap shot about one aspect of his life that I think has not been covered in detail and yet the more I read him, the more convinced I am, that it was a major driving force in <em>Nietzsche’s</em> writing.</p>
<p>You could say it drove him “mad” but of course his eventual collapse had more to do with the syphilis he contracted on his first and possibly, his only sexual encounter. However, I believe that the sexual tension <em>Nietzsche </em>experienced all his life is central to understanding his philosophy and I want to look at that aspect in more detail than is usual.</p>
<h3><strong>Nietzsche’s Problem with Sex</strong></h3>
<p><strong> </strong></p>
<p>In 1865 <em>Nietzsche </em>visited a Cologne brothel with some fellow students from Bonn University. This was not unusual at the time as it was quite common for German University students in the 1860s and 1870s to learn about sex this way and it would have been unusual if he had <em>not</em> visited a brothel at least once.</p>
<p>However, <em>Nietzsche </em>told his friend Paul Deussen, that he was taken there against his will and left immediately. But as <em>Nietzsche </em>subsequently contracted and eventually died from syphilis this is probably a white lie.</p>
<p><em>Nietzsche </em>was first treated for a syphilitic infection in 1867 in Leipzig and suffered his first incapacitation in 1871. The course of his illness from 1871 up until his total collapse in 1889 is quite typical of the disease. The only unusual aspect was how long it took for him to die after his collapse. It took eleven (11) years and for practically all of this period he was in a catatonic state having suffered a complete mental breakdown.</p>
<p><em>Nietzsche </em>suffered from debilitating headaches and bouts of depression and euphoria all his life. The final mental breakdown happened when he was in Italy in 1889. While walking through the piazza Carlo Alberto in Turin, he saw a carthorse being whipped by the driver and immediately jumped to its aid wrapping his arms around its neck, crying and pleading with it for forgiveness.</p>
<p>While <em>Nietzsche </em>never admitted to having syphilis H. W. Brann in his book on <em>Nietzsche’s </em>sex life, <em>Nietzsche </em><em>und die Frauen</em>, interprets the long poem in the chapter “<span style="text-decoration: underline;"><strong><a title="Among the Daughters of the Desert by Nietzsche" href="https://shadowintheflame.com/among-the-daughters-of-the-desert/">Among the Daughters of the Desert</a></strong></span>” in part four of <em>Zarathustra</em> as a barely disguised recollection of a visit to a brothel. He noticed similarities between its phraseology and that of the version given to Deussen. (I have added the poem separately if you would like to <span style="text-decoration: underline;"><a title="Among the Daughters of the Desert by Nietzsche" href="https://shadowintheflame.com/among-the-daughters-of-the-desert/">read it for yourself</a></span>)</p>
<h3><strong>Nietzsche and Women</strong></h3>
<p><strong> </strong></p>
<p>Many passages in <em>Nietzsche’s </em>writing and especially the uninhibited “<em>Ecco Homo</em>” his “un-autobiography” show that <em>Nietzsche </em>was highly sexed and very attracted to women. Yet there is no record or even a hint that he ever went to bed with a woman of his own class. Taking into account his possible concern for privacy there is still so much other material written about him by his contemporaries that we can safely conclude that her never had sex with a woman from his own class.</p>
<h3>Why Did Nietzsche Have a Problem with Sex?</h3>
<p><em>Nietzsche</em> had many women friends but never married or had a mistress. Despite his attraction to women all his relationships suffered from his inhibitions and failure to reach the “next level” i.e. to form a long term relationship, marriage and a healthy sex life.</p>
<p>Most biographers have generally assumed <em>Nietzsche </em>suffered from some paralyzing mental or physical inhibition</p>
<p style="float: left;"><img decoding="async" src="https://shadowintheflame.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/05/Nietzsche.jpg" style="width: 300px; height: auto; padding-right: 10px;" /><span class="imgcaption">Friedrich Nietzsche</span></p>
<p>(some speculate it was his huge mustache) that inhibited his relations with women but if there was such an inhibition I think it could well have been his knowledge that he suffered from a disease that would be transmitted to his sexual partner. This theory is supported by our knowledge that <em>Nietzsche </em>was a man of honour which probably led to him leading a celibate life at least in relation to women of his own class. (I know I have mentioned class a few times and while this may seem strange today, it was a very real consideration in the nineteenth century and still is among some people who have delusions of grandeur).</p>
<p>I think this was a huge burden for a man who would have loved nothing more than to meet and marry the right woman and have children. I think it led to a skewing of his views about women but more importantly, it caused him to lead a very solitary and lonely life. <em>Nietzsche </em>was not fortunate enough to find a soul mate with whom he could lead an intellectually stimulating life, which I believe, he would have wanted even if he could have performed sexual intercourse.</p>
<h3><strong>Nietzsche’s Two Great Loves</strong></h3>
<h3><strong> </strong></h3>
<p>Despite Nietzsche’s “problem” there were two women that we know of for whom Nietzsche really had the hots.</p>
<h4><strong>Cosima Wagner</strong></h4>
<p><strong> </strong></p>
<p><em>Nietzsche</em> was a close friend of the Wagner’s who he met when he was appointed to the Chair of Classical Philology at Basle University in 1869, aged 24. He shared a common love with them for the pessimistic Schopenhauer who <em>Nietzsche</em> had discovered four years earlier while a student at Leipzig University. Schopenhauer’s philosophy can be summed up as “The prudent man strives for freedom from pain, not pleasure” which is a quote from Aristotle’s Nicomachean Ethics. It was a philosophy that Nietzsche would later eschew (shun).</p>
<p style="float: right;"><img decoding="async" src="https://shadowintheflame.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/05/WagnerCosima.jpg" style="width: 300px; height: auto; padding-right: 10px;" /><span class="imgcaption">Cosima</span></p>
<p>Schopenhauer was not the only one that <em>Nietzsche</em> loved, he fell madly in love with Richard Wagner’s wife Cosima. He never told Cosima of his deep feelings for her until he finally lost his mind in 1889 when he sent her a postcard from Turin in which he wrote ”Ariadne, I love you” and signed it Dionysus.</p>
<p>However, can you imagine the effect that this life long love for Cosima had on <em>Nietzsche</em> which he kept bottled up inside him? Certainly it fueled Nietzsche’s frustration and sense of loneliness and contributed to him making somewhat acerbic comments about women such as “They make the highs higher and the lows more frequent”</p>
<h4><strong>Lou Salome</strong></h4>
<p><strong> </strong></p>
<p>The second true love of his life was Lou Salome (although he did propose to Mathilde Trampedach a few days after meeting her in 1876 but he was rejected). <em>Nietzsche </em>was introduced to Salome by Paul Ree a friend of his who was also in love with her.</p>
<p>Lou Salome was 21, she was the intellectual equal of <em>Friedrich Nietzsche</em> and the least straight laced (Socially uninhibited new style of liberated feminist dedicated to independence) and the most entertaining woman <em>Nietzsche </em>had ever met. She was also frigid and in her Nietzsche thought he had finally found his soul mate.</p>
<p style="float: left;"><img decoding="async" src="https://shadowintheflame.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/05/Lou-Salome.jpg" style="width: 275px; height: auto; padding-right: 10px;" /><span class="imgcaption">Lou Salome</span></p>
<p>Amazingly, <em>Nietzsche </em>asked Paul Ree to propose to Salome on his behalf which possibly says something about his emotional IQ.</p>
<p>Salome refused to marry either <em>Nietzsche </em>or Ree and counter proposes a platonic Menage-a-trios (a threesome) with Ree and <em>Nietzsche</em>.</p>
<p>They spend much time together and are photographed in a mock up of a cart with <em>Nietzsche </em>and Ree between the shafts and Salome driving them flourishing a whip. I think this is one of those images when art speaks louder than words.</p>
<p>In May 1882 while the three of them are on a holiday in Lucerne, <em>Nietzsche </em>proposes to Salome again, this time in person. He is rejected and the trio leave for Leipzig where after three weeks Salome and Ree leave <em>Nietzsche </em>without arranging to meet him again.</p>
<p><em>Nietzsche </em>waits for a month hoping to hear from them before he realises he has been abandoned. By now he is emotionally and physically exhausted and beset with disappointment and self contempt.</p>
<p>The rejection by Salome and not least the manner of it was the bitterest pill <em>Nietzsche </em>ever endured and led to his most severe bout of depression yet. However, part of his strategy to recover his equilibrium was to embark on a new book; <em>Thus Spoke Zarathustra</em>.</p>
<h3>Nietzsche&#8217;s Crisis Leads to New Philosophy of Hope</h3>
<p>One of the things that characterizes <em>Thus Spoke Zarathustra</em> is the excessive and grandiose manner in which it is written. One can feel the depths of Nietzsche’s depression and the inevitable euphoria that usually follows it. I have posted an excerpt from <a title="The Night Song by Friedrich Nietzsche" href="https://shadowintheflame.com/the-night-song-by-friedrich-nietzsche/"><strong>part two, The Night Song</strong></a>, for you to read for yourself.</p>
<p>But <em>Thus Spoke Zarathustra</em> is also the resolution of <em>Nietzsche’s </em>intellectual crisis and he emerges from it with a new philosophy of hope. Hope for a world for which <em>Nietzsche </em>was previously pessimistic.</p>
<h3 style="font-size: 1.17em;">Nietzsche&#8217;s Concept of Fulfillment</h3>
<p>It is at this point <em>Nietzsche </em>shakes off the influence of Schopenhauer with his view that:</p>
<p>“……the happiest lot is that of the man who has got through life without any very great pain, bodily or mental.”<br />and he replaces it with a new philosophy that declares fulfillment in life can only be reached not by avoiding pain but by embracing its role as a natural, inevitable step on the way to achieving anything good.</p>
<h2>Nietzsche Emerges from the dark</h2>
<p>Thus as Nietzsche emerges from his darkest days he experiences a revelation that all the demolition that goes on in life <strong><em>may</em></strong> be only the essential preliminary and prerequisite condition for a new construction of it. He puts it far more eloquently himself at the end of his book, Dawn:</p>
<p><em>We aeronauts of the spirit!</em> All those brave birds which fly out into the distance, into the farthest distance – it is certain! somewhere or other they will be unable to go on and will perch down on a mast or a bare cliff-face – and they will be thankful for this miserable accommodation! But who could venture to infer from that, that there was <strong><em>not</em></strong> an immense open space before them, that they had flown as far as one <strong><em>could</em></strong> fly! All our great teachers and predecessors have at last come to a stop…; it will be the same with you and me! But what does that matter to you and me! <strong><em>Other birds will fly farther!</em></strong></p>
<h3>Authors Note:</h3>
<p>I sincerely apologise that I have left so much out and yet the article is still too long. I thank you for flying this far with me. Excelsior!</p>
<p>P.S. I have posted separately the two extracts from Thus Spoke Zarathustra mentioned above.</p>
<p>Ric Vatner</p>
<p>&nbsp;</p>
<p><!--<a title="Part 1 of the author's analysis of the Man Chapter 3" href="https://shadowintheflame.com/blog/2010/11/05/i-don%E2%80%99t-want-to-be-lonely-anymore/">I Don’t Want to be Lonely – Author’s Analysis of the Man Chapter 3 – Part 1</a></p>



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		<title>Is It Right or An Injustice to Love Someone Who Loves Another Person?</title>
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		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ric Vatner]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Sep 2010 01:43:41 +0000</pubDate>
				<category><![CDATA[Breaking Up]]></category>
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					<description><![CDATA[<p>"So would it be an act of injustice for you love someone whom is already in love. ?</p>
<p>The post <a href="https://shadowintheflame.com/is-it-right-or-an-injustice-to-love-someone-who-loves-another-person/">Is It Right or An Injustice to Love Someone Who Loves Another Person?</a> appeared first on <a href="https://shadowintheflame.com">Shadow In The Flame</a>.</p>
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				<div class="et_pb_text_inner">Updated March 28 2023</p>
<p style="text-align: center;"><img decoding="async" src="https://shadowintheflame.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/05/justice-in-love-v3.jpg" style="width: 500px; height: auto;" /></p>
<p><span>I received the following question in the comments section of the article entitled <a href="https://shadowintheflame.com/the-philosophy-of-breaking-up/">“The Philosophy of Breaking Up”</a> and I felt it deserved a more prominent and considered reply. </span></p>
<p><span>However, I am acutely aware of my own shortcomings in some aspects of love, so I would welcome your views, which I hope you will add to this thread. </span></p>
<p><strong><span>The Question:</span></strong><span> “Would it be an act of injustice for you to love someone who is already in love with someone else? Would it not be right to live up to the claim that you are in love with them by not caring that the person may be in love with another? Would justice not imply that if you love a person, you love them no matter what pain it brings?” </span></p>
<p><strong><span> Editor’s Reply:</span></strong><span> When a question bears within it the seed of so much pain, I am loath to answer it lightly for fear of causing more distress. </span></p>
<p><span>First, thank you for raising such an important question. Attempting to discuss love is like walking into a mirror maze. Questions and answers bounce back and forth, opening an infinite number of perspectives and opinions. </span></p>
<p><span>Perhaps that’s why it has always been such an important topic in philosophy and for influential thinkers, past and present, famous or unknown. Parents and siblings, friends and strangers, our teachers and mentors, all have an opinion that they are keen to share. There is also great wisdom in this community and I welcome any ideas or suggestions from readers (which I hope you will add to the comments in this article). </span></p>
<p><strong>Why do you Misunderstand Me?</strong></p>
<p>Ambiguity in language is the source of humour and invention and the cause of many arguments. <span>We can easily misinterpret a message or article when the words used mean one thing to one reader and something completely different to another and often something different again to the author as well. That’s why it is important to be very specific about the words you choose and the context you use them in. Even when you speak to yourself in thought, you influence yourself by the way you phrase your thoughts. Let me give you some examples from the question we are discussing.</span></p>
<p><strong>Would it be an act of injustice for you to love someone who is already in love with someone else?</strong></p>
<p>To understand this question, we need to first agree on the meaning of two concepts and then determine who the writer believes is the agent or the victim of the injustice. The concepts are:</p>
<p>What do you mean by “injustice”?</p>
<p>How do you define Love?</p>
<p>First, let’s define injustice. That should be easy. <em>An injustice occurs when someone purposely acts in a way that causes another person to suffer hardship or loss undeservedly. The hurtful act could be a onetime event or occur many times over a long period, creating conditions of hardship or unhappiness for the victim. </em></p>
<p>Next, it is important to know who will experience the injustice. Does the questioner mean “is it an injustice to themselves” or to the person whom they love?</p>
<p><span>This is important to know because, if it is an injustice to themselves, then they have the choice, the power to decide not to pursue their love to the degree that it hurts them self. They could decide to walk away, as painful as that might be in the short term. Panaetius of Rhodes had plenty to say on this matter way back in 185 BCE as you will see below.</span></p>
<p><span>If the injustice is to the other person, then we should refer to Aristotle’s definition of love below, and weigh up how loving someone who loves another person conflicts with his definition of loving behaviour.</span></p>
<p><strong><span>Would justice not imply that if you love a person, you love them no matter what pain it brings?</span></strong></p>
<p><span>Once again, it is unclear who the writer is concerned about? The lack of clarity about who would experience the pain is crucial to my answer.</span></p>
<p><strong><span>Is there such a thing as Romantic Justice? </span></strong></p>
<p><span>Romantic justice is not a recognised legal term so there are no laws that specifically cover the way people should treat each other in a romantic relationship, other than laws regarding assault, for example. However, in philosophy or the social sciences, it has a place, and I think it is safe to assume that the question is being asked as a philosophical rather than a legal issue.</span></p>
<p><strong><span>What is the difference between Legal Justice and Romantic Justice?</span></strong></p>
<p><span>Legal justice aims to ensure fairness and equality for everyone in the community to which the law of the land applies. Governments make laws and have a legal system that includes courts, judges, prosecutors and defence lawyers and multiple police forces to enforce it. </span></p>
<p><span>Romantic justice is a philosophical concept that promotes fairness and equality between partners in a romantic relationship. While it has no force in the legal system, it has gained authority through hundreds of years of practice in society and has evolved over time, in a similar way to Common Law.   </span></p>
<p><span>In a romantic relationship, Justice is a concept that requires:</span></p>
<ul>
<li><span>Mutual respect,</span></li>
<li><span>Equality,</span></li>
<li><span>Honesty</span></li>
<li><span>Respect for the Human Dignity of both partners,</span></li>
<li><span>Communication,</span></li>
<li><span>Empathy,</span></li>
<li><span>Trust,</span></li>
<li><span>Fairness, </span></li>
<li><span>Boundaries,</span></li>
<li><span>Transparency,</span></li>
<li><span>Accountability,</span></li>
<li><span>Forgiveness,</span><span></span></li>
</ul>
<p><span></span></p>
<p><strong>To get a full description of each of these traits, and a more detailed account of the differences between legal justice and romantic justice, download the free Justice for All pdf. </strong></div>
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				<a class="et_pb_button et_pb_button_0 et_pb_bg_layout_light" href="">Download the FREE Justice for All PDF</a>
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				<div class="et_pb_text_inner"><p style="text-align:center"><img decoding="async" src="https://shadowintheflame.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/unfaithful-girl-walking-park-with-her-boyfriend-while-holding-another-man-hand-love-triangle-concept-woman-holding-hands-with-another-man-while-walking-with-her-boyfriend-outdoor-scaled.jpg" alt=""  style="width:500px;height:auto"></p>
<p><strong></strong></p>
<p><strong><span>What is Love?</span></strong></p>
<p><span>Defining Love is not so easy and therein lays another problem with answering your straightforward but deceptively difficult question. </span></p>
<p><span>Love is hard to define in precise terms because there are various types of love and different ways to experience it, and to express it. </span></p>
<p><span>Love can be an intense feeling of affection, connection, and attachment that one person feels towards another. It can include a range of emotions, such as joy, happiness, contentment, and even pain or sadness. </span></p>
<p><span>Romantic love often expresses itself through a sense of intimacy, trust, and vulnerability, plus a deep desire to be close to and connected with the loved one.</span></p>
<p><span>However, there are many forms of love besides romantic love, such as familial love, or platonic love, and we express it through various actions, such as caring, nurturing, supporting, and sacrificing for the well-being of the loved one/s. </span></p>
<p><span>There are also many negative forms of love that can cause harm and distress for individuals, but they are not real love. They include being;</span></p>
<ul>
<li><span>Overly possessive, </span></li>
<li><span>Jealous, </span></li>
<li><span>Abusive, </span></li>
<li><span>Domineering, </span></li>
<li><span>Obsessive love, which can lead to stalking or other harmful actions,</span></li>
<li><span>Relying excessively on the other for emotional support, self-worth, and identity, often referred to as Co-dependent love,</span></li>
<li><span>Controlling behaviour, this can involve emotional blackmail, guilt-tripping, financial control, separation from friends and family, or threats of abandonment. </span></li>
</ul>
<p><span>Aristotle defined love as “the unselfish, loyal and benevolent concern for the good of another”. </span></p>
<p><span>But Panaetius of Rhodes, the ancient Greek philosopher, urges us “not to pledge ourselves to an activity so violent and disturbing, one which makes us the slave of another and despicable to ourselves” <em>(for example, loving someone who does not love you or who loves you and someone else)</em>. </span></p>
<p><span>So if your love is Aristotelian, i.e. “the unselfish, loyal and <strong>benevolent concern</strong> for the good of another” can this be an act that causes the person you love to suffer hardship or loss undeservedly? </span></p>
<p><span>I have highlighted the words “benevolent concern” in bold because that is the key to answering this question. Benevolent means kind, caring, compassionate, generous and benign, and we need to apply this rule to any relationship we value.</span></p>
<p><span>It is important to consider the feelings and circumstances of both parties involved in the relationship. If the person you love is already in a committed relationship, you pursuing a romantic relationship with them could cause pain and harm to them, their existing relationship, and to their partner. In these circumstances, acting on your feelings would be an act of injustice.</span></p>
<p><span>While developing feelings for someone is natural, and feels as though it is beyond our control, we can control our expression of it. If you accept the premise that love incorporates a <strong>benevolent concern</strong> for the good of the person you love, it is important to act with empathy, respect, and consideration for their well-being. This could involve acknowledging and accepting their existing relationship and choosing to maintain a respectful distance.</span></p>
<p><strong><span>What’s the score if the person you love is married to you but loves someone else?</span></strong></p>
<p><span>This is the question I most feared. Once again, the questioner has not specified if the person they love is married to them but loves someone else. Unfortunately, I know this one from firsthand experience.</span></p>
<p><span>The circumstances are even harder if the couple has children, because more people are affected.</span></p>
<p><span>With or without children, the impact of many variables such as family, religious, culture, ethnic, moral and ethical considerations and the quality of the relationship prior to this crisis makes this situation difficult to confront and, to resolve amicably and in a manner fair to all parties. </span></p>
<p><span>It is hard to consider everyone’s feelings and needs when you are hurting, but in the best interest of reaching an amicable solution, especially if you have children, you need to try hard to do this. </span></p>
<p><span>Some people seek counselling or mediation to understand the issues and the possibility of developing strategies for addressing it. If the reason the person drifted towards another for love was because of a lack of one or more of the qualities listed under romantic justice above, consciously working on these can help repair the relationship. But it may not. It may be too late, and you have to prepare yourself for that.</span></p>
<p><span>For there to be any resolution, it is important to understand the perspectives and feelings of both your partner and the person they love. You can only do that by having open and honest conversations with them. That will be difficult. It will hurt your pride and dent your ego. It will require forgiveness on both sides, mutual respect, empathy and all the other qualities listed above. Whether you can do it will depend on your desire to repair the relationship or as a Plan B, resolve to split-up amicably and over time repair the friendship. Plan C is a miserable disaster and not recommended.</span></p>
<p><span>We didn’t consider any of these options, but after avoiding each other for some years, we learned to be friends again. Partly for the sake of the kids and partly because the hurt dissipated over time. Today, I regard my ex-wife as one of my best friends and we are each other’s confidant, mainly because we know each other so well and now trust each other again.</span></p>
<p><span>Lao Tzu said “To love someone is to identify with them” and Michael Nova said “Love is not a feeling of happiness. Love is a willingness to sacrifice”. Both are true, but to reach the happy place that we have attained, you have to sacrifice the temptation for revenge, to feel you are the aggrieved one and to undermine the other partner in the eyes of the children. Mutual respect is the foundation for a return to happiness in your separate lives.</span></p>
<p><span>On a personal note to the writer of the question, only you know the full circumstances of the relationship you wrote about, so it is impossible for any of us to advise you categorically. I can only tell you that when I have a problem or need advice, I turn to my mentors, the great minds of philosophy and society who, through their writings, are always available to us. I hope that by reminding you of what some of these great thinkers have said on this subject along with my contribution, it will help you arrive at your own answer, which is probably the only relevant one.</span></div>
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<p>The post <a href="https://shadowintheflame.com/is-it-right-or-an-injustice-to-love-someone-who-loves-another-person/">Is It Right or An Injustice to Love Someone Who Loves Another Person?</a> appeared first on <a href="https://shadowintheflame.com">Shadow In The Flame</a>.</p>
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