Comments on The Fischbowl

Great piece on PLNs. I have been working with them...

2009-07-10T11:10:19.519-06:00

Great piece on PLNs. I have been working with them as well and hope to present it to my colleagues next fall as part of our professional development. I really like your ideas and links. I will continue to follow your blog and read on! Thanks!

Wow. That was awesome. I will now withdraw from th...

2009-07-08T11:40:43.197-06:00

Wow. That was awesome. I will now withdraw from the world for several hours to explore and learn, which is exactly what we need our students to be able to do!

I believe that we are in the middle of an evolutio...

2009-07-07T12:01:03.453-06:00

I believe that we are in the middle of an evolutionary phase. In economics, we are beginning to discuss dropping the scarcity approach in lieu of a bountiful approach. In school, we are moving from teaching content to teaching students how to learn. In society (excuse me, but I'm talking about connected society; I do realize that most people in the world do not have this advantage, yet), we are becoming publishers and have on-line identities.

I have both fictional identities and my personal/professional (I don't separate the two)identity. However, I have been using my fictional identities less and less in the past year and focusing more on my single and published identity. I don't really see the need to hide behind a fictional identity anymore. I am who I am and am willing to say so in public. I am noticing this trend and believe that more and more people will adopt the same attitude.

As for students and digital portfolio names, I side completely with Carl. We should encourage students to develop a digital portfolio that they can call theirs. We should not mandate this; we wouldn't embarrass a student with dyslexia by making them read aloud to the class without adequate prep time and we shouldn't ask students to publish something until they are comfortable with it.

However, giving them the chance to develop a life-long body of work might make a meaningful difference in their progress. I know that the scrutiny of public reading of some of my youthful work would have been very helpful to me and probably improved my outcomes. Let's give our students that chance.

I tell my high school students (and other teenager...

2009-07-07T08:08:39.628-06:00

I tell my high school students (and other teenagers) regularly that they need to be careful about what they post online. Unfortunately, I don't really think it sinks in with most of them. My guess is it will take another generation for them to realize how easy it is for potential employers, etc... to find out things from their past.

As educators we also need to remember to model these habits. We should be careful about our digital footprint and what we use when we post things.

As for student display names, I'm sure each district can easily come up with an acceptable way to do this without giving away too much information. Some combination of initials, and some other numbers or coding should work.

As I read through everyone's thoughts on the matte...

2009-07-06T22:46:00.777-06:00

As I read through everyone's thoughts on the matter I had to put in my 2 cents worth. As a parent and an educator I can see both sides of the coin as well. But as I read through the comments I started to think about responsibility. Back in my youth I was given the opportunity to behave in a responsible matter. Sometimes I used best judgement, sometimes not so much. Today kids (and adults) have to make decisions about what to make public. There have been many examples of kids using cell phone cameras or texts in stupid ways. My point is if we, as educators don't show students how to publish and post responsibly when and where will they learn? I think if my daughter was in school now (K-12), I would like her to have to privilege to publish her poem or story online. As she gained new knowledge and skills she (we) could reflect at her growth as a writer. It may seem to some like we are pushing kids to do things, but I think what they can learn may supersede the value of some of the content they write about. Being responsible and making good choices as an online author should be taught to all students. I am afraid that animosity tends to take away from validity of the author. As educators we should give them a forum to learn to be authentic responsible publishers.

Hi Cheryl, thanks for joining in. First of all, I...

2009-07-06T17:13:23.838-06:00

Hi Cheryl, thanks for joining in.

First of all, I haven't "completely decided where I stand" either - that's a big part of why I blog (write), so that I can flesh out my thinking and receive pushback from folks like Annette and yourself. By participating in the commons I hope to improve my own thinking, perhaps impact others' thinking, and in the end improve the learning going on in our schools. I feel this is very powerful, which is one of the reasons that I want our students doing it as well.

You make a good point about authority figures and I certainly agree that this is something we need to be careful of. But it's also something we need to educate our students about and, while I haven't completely thought this part through, I think by helping our students be their own authority, by giving them an authentic voice, a platform to publish, and by connecting it with their real identity, we actually help inoculate them against that manipulation. I think it is much easier to manipulate them when they are "confined" to a classroom, and much harder when we give them the ability to consume and produce in the media forms of the day (Jason Ohler, University of Alaska). (Again, I need to think about that more, but I think there's something worth thinking about there.)

As far as students being exploited, I'm sure that happens. I have not, however, experienced that at AHS. Every conversation I've had with teachers at AHS has been pretty thoughtful about whether a proposed digitally published activity is actually beneficial for the students and better than whatever previous method was used. My standard question to teachers is a combination of, "What can we do because of the technology that we couldn't do before?" and "How is this better?"

Yes, as I think you know, I would probably make some changes in what we do at school (including our current assessment practices, which would help some in terms of the "coerced" issue). And, yes, much of what students currently do is forced on them. But I think that if we legitimately empower them, that will help bring about some of those changes. And I worry that if we don't, they will leave us - and I still fervently believe that schools have much to offer students and that it would be detrimental to them, to us, and to society as a whole if that were to happen.

As the mother of a teenager and as a high school t...

2009-07-06T16:48:27.945-06:00

As the mother of a teenager and as a high school teacher, I am keenly aware of how easily teenagers can be manipulated, coerced, and propagandized. A charismatic teacher has an incredible impact on students.

I was in the audience during the Skype session with Cory Doctorow and Ms. Smith’s students from Arapahoe High School (ustreamed on The Fischbowl on Monday, May 18, 2009.) Doctorow explained to the students that adults worry about on-line strangers preying on students, when in fact the majority of sexual predators are parents and authority figures such as teachers, scoutmasters, and priests. Schools spend an inordinate time guarding their students from strangers; when in fact known authority figures are statistically more dangerous to the safety of young people.

Karl, I’m being somewhat—but not wholly—facetious when I ask, are you overlooking the dangers of the authority figures who sit in our schools when you argue that students have the right to establish an online footprint when they are in 9th, 10th, and 11th grade? In your comment to @annette, you write, “Why would you publish bad poetry if it was a meaningful and relevant assignment to you, and if you knew you were sharing it with the world? And if it wasn't meaningful and relevant, then why would we (schools) ask you to do it?” Well, that is exactly what worries me. Much of the writing that appears in class blogs is forced upon the students by their teachers. It isn’t always “meaningful and relevant” to the students who are writing.

Frankly, I sometimes suspect the motives of the teacher who requires that students publish a poem or post an essay or participate in an on-line debate. Could a teacher hope that his blog or her Wikki will improve the teacher’s own digital footprint? Are students being exploited?

Students comply with their teacher’s request to publish. They post their poems, essays, debates, conversations. But I suspect not every word they write is “meaningful and relevant” to them. They often write what they think will please their teacher. Sometimes they write merely to earn points, to obtain a good grade. I know, Karl, that you despise grades and teacher-centered classrooms. I know that true learning stems from the yearnings and curiosity of the student. I know that a good teacher would never force a student to express inauthentic thoughts. But…still I worry. Doctorow’s point about the dangerous authority figures troubles my mind.

I haven’t completely decided where I stand on the issue you raise in this post. But I am not wholly convinced that what students write for their teachers (and they ARE trying to impress their teachers when they publish on a class blog) should become part of that indelible digital footprint that you seem to believe teenagers need to stamp into the future.

As I teach in a prep to year 12 school, and as we ...

2009-07-06T05:44:39.876-06:00

As I teach in a prep to year 12 school, and as we started blogging as individuals 18 months ago, I was extremely careful of hiding behind usernames and avatars that bore no identity to the person involved - me included. That meant as I constantly kept applying for web2.0 tool registration, I had to keep changing my username as someone else had grabbed it. Now, I use my full name and wished that I had done so,right from the start.
For younger students I still encourage their student code id's for user names, but they write and 'about me' page that shows their first name and school they attend. I was recently asked by my education department to refrain from using first names, and even mentioning if the child was a twin as they were so easily traceable and recognizable.
These were grade 5 and 6 students who also work on global projects where I strongly feel they should use and be known by their first names, so I shall continue on, until told again. I fear that we will hide behind fake identities and avatars and start to lose our own real, true identity becoming a persona that is not at all appropriate or realistic. I do like your argument of maintaining a good digital footprint and shall keep that for future reference.

Why do we take zero objection to student first nam...

2009-07-05T23:48:34.355-06:00

Why do we take zero objection to student first names/last names, etc being posted on school athletic team websites, but when it comes to using full names on rich academic ePortfolio learning spaces, we take objection? What kind of message does this send about the value of athletics in comparison to academics?

@annette - Thanks for the thoughtful response. A f...

2009-07-05T21:58:15.759-06:00

@annette - Thanks for the thoughtful response. A few thoughts.

Why would you publish bad poetry if it was a meaningful and relevant assignment to you, and if you knew you were sharing it with the world? And if it wasn't meaningful and relevant, then why would we (schools) ask you to do it? Also, as I indicated, I really don't think anyone is going to hold it against you many years later (which is analogous to the transcript argument - it's relevant for admission to college or your first job only, so time-bound). If we as adults look at a ninth grader's poetry and judge them based on that, then we're the ones with the problem.

I think we probably disagree on when students are ready for responsibility. I think we spend too much time preparing students for the "real world" and to be "competent adults," and ignore the fact that school is the real world for them right now, and this is their real life. I think we do them a disservice when we treat students as "not fully developed humans." Many atrocious decisions have been made over the years using that kind of thinking applied to kids and groups of adults alike. Yes, our students will continue to mature and grow as humans, but that's a very different statement.

I agree that our students should be given the opportunity and space to develop as individuals, but I don't see that as in opposition to having a digital footprint attached to their real name. And I would suggest that it is best managed by parents, teachers and the students themselves. (Why do we continue to leave them out?) Our students have complete opt-out in my district for any assignment at any time for any reason. If there's something they don't want to publish, they don't have to. But why do we ask them to lie when they do have something to publish?

I don't see a whole lot of difference between stuff published in newspapers or broadcast on our TV stations and stuff published online - especially considering our students would have control over what they publish online, and besides those "local" papers and tv stations publish their stuff online as well. I would be very surprised if the high school athletes in Ontario have complete control over whether their names and stats are published in the paper, or whether they local tv station takes footage at the games. And none of the students in Ontario - or anywhere else - has much control over what happens to the print media (newspapers, yearbooks) that our schools currently produce and publish en masse.

I'm not suggesting that our students reveal their whole selves to the world, but that they carefully, thoughtfully, and purposefully create their online identity, with the scaffolding and help that we in schools can offer. If we don't help them do this, then fluffybunny64 will continue to see school and "the real world" as two different things, and will continue to think that life is something they should be "protected" from, instead of something that should be lived, and I think that would be a tragedy.

Although I like the idea of teaching students how ...

2009-07-05T18:57:15.661-06:00

Although I like the idea of teaching students how to grow their online identity, I find myself disagreeing with your idea of grade 9 students creating a permanent digital footprint. In your post you say:

"After all, students currently earn grades in high school... Would you suggest that our students should be anonymous and not have transcripts?"

That is a little dramatic. Students and parents have control over who sees their transcripts. Typically it is just family and the registrars office at the colleges they apply to. They are not published anywhere for public consumption. Also, once you finish your undergraduate degree you never have to provide your high-school marks again. Why would I want my bad high-school poetry available to the world when I apply for my first big job? Why can't I start with a clean slate when I first enter an institution of adult learning?

I also don't think that the situation in the past where children were required to work in the fields is necessarily a good model for how we want children to take on responsibility now. The life expectancy was incredibly low then, and children needed to grow up, get married and start reproducing fast or miss the boat.

Now we ask them to develop as individuals, we ask them to learn a myriad of professional skills requiring many hours of learning. there is so much preparation required to become a competent adult that we have to understand that there is a longer on-ramp to adulthood than there was before the industrial revolution.

If you want to look at the past, for tradeskills there was a very long apprenticeship period with many stages where an apprentice was made to do tasks meant to prepare them for journeyman status. Only then could they complete a final project to become a master.

We give kids partial responsibility as they are ready for it, which is a bumpy and individual process best managed by parents and teachers. Handing a 13 year old full responsibility for their permanent digital footprint may not be appropriate for all children (in fact I am sure it is not). Giving children the time and space to develop as individuals, out of the spotlight, as they navigate the lingering aftereffects of puberty respects them as not fully developed humans.

As for the students whose name and pictures end up in the local papers - that is hardly the same as having the identity of each of your students available to anyone over the internet. Plus, newspapers have to get parental consent for any pictures they publish (at least they do in Ontario where I am).

Forcing students to put their full names and identities on the internet before they are entitled to vote or drive a car robs adolescents of their right to privacy as they develop. I agree they need to learn web skills, but I think you are asking them to reveal their whole selves to the world too early. Think of pseudonyms as training wheels, we let them go at their own pace, and when we take them off, we don't let go of the bike until they are ready to go!

So I would say let fluffybunny64 or student3978 stay partially protected at school for a little longer.

Okay, I had a really nice response to all this, bu...

2009-07-04T10:30:15.239-06:00

Okay, I had a really nice response to all this, but it turns out blogger has a 4096 character limit on comments. Who knew? (And, yes, I'm incredibly wordy.)

So, I'll create a new post with the comment I was going to make. Please read it if you're interested.

I as a classroom teacher am given the choice betwe...

2009-07-02T23:33:05.206-06:00

I as a classroom teacher am given the choice between "they can publish anonymously" or "they can't publish at all", I'm going to go with anonymous publishing. I think that even with that condition, there are still benefits to be gained from publishing, and in many districts, getting permission to have any student work published online is no minor feat.

Job Description

How will they know what the consequences are if th...

2009-07-02T18:05:13.565-06:00

How will they know what the consequences are if they post as "FluffyBunny2025"? If they are going to learn how to build their digital selves (and let's not kid ourselves that they're starting that in high school anymore), there needs to be some weight behind the decisions they make w/r/t what to post, how to comment, etc.

I think Barbara may have hit on an important consi...

2009-07-02T16:11:27.650-06:00

I think Barbara may have hit on an important consideration...
"would I have wanted my adolescent and teenage thought process laid open for all?"

When addressing a student who as made a poor decision, I've been known to say "high school is a place where you get to make a few mistakes before it counts for too much... so I'm going to assume you learned something from this and let's move on".

I think perhaps students need some opportunities to learn about proper digital citizenship before it really counts for much... ie: having some degree of anonymity while in school might be a "good thing" and allow students to learn from minor missteps without any lasting consequences.

I would cautious about over exposure of students a...

2009-06-29T08:51:08.461-06:00

I would cautious about over exposure of students and their identities online. We should be careful about applying adult sensibilities to minors. In an age when we ask kids to grow up and face adult issues earlier and earlier, I'm not convinced it is always healthy. As such, I would think the prudent course of action would be to set the default to a level of reasonable anonymity with student choice leading to any full disclosure of an identity tied to student work. Recall that a juvenile who commits a felony has that record expunged by age 18 because the courts realize that the decisions made as a minor should not be held against the adult version of the same person. As such, I suggest kids will claim credit for their work when they are ready and that we as educators should set our mindset on the cautious side of the spectrum so as not to push students into the deep end too quickly. We should not underestmiate the power and impact of global publishing and school should be a safe place to learn the ropes.

-Dan Maas

Lots of great comments here, folks, and I hope to ...

2009-06-26T10:14:05.615-06:00

Lots of great comments here, folks, and I hope to get a chance in the next couple of days to respond to all of them. But, real quick before I board the plane, I wanted to respond to Dan's comment.

1) Yes, of course we would make exceptions for situations where there's an abusive situation or other case where a student needs to remain anonymous. But that doesn't apply to most students, and is not a reason not to do this for most students.

2) It's our job to help them figure this out - if they don't get it now, do you think they're going to get it if we don't do this with them? And I think those students that figure out from the age of 14 (or whatever) how to do this well will have an advantage, but I also think that most folks will be smart enough not to judge a 40 year old completely on what they said at the age of 14. And I think anyone that can't do that, I wouldn't want to work for anyway.

I like the idea of an authentic digital footprint ...

2009-06-26T08:21:41.555-06:00

I like the idea of an authentic digital footprint - and agree with most of your reasoning (and that of other comments). But I'll play devil's advocate - and probably sound like the district legal department... What about those kids who need to hide from an abusive situation? What about the kids who don't "get" the idea that their digital footprint goes beyond just their circle of friends and teachers. I was a fairly dumb teenager. I would hate for someone to judge me professionally at the age of 40 based on things I said and did at 14.

great discussion here. (please note that we do no...

2009-06-26T04:52:47.146-06:00

great discussion here. (please note that we do not have the same issues here with parents, privacy, legalities here in nz as you do in the states).

as i have my year 11 students prepare real cv's for summer jobs, i encourage... no, i *push* that they use business-appropriate email addresses and screen names as they step into the adult world. after all, i tell them, who is going to email skuxxinsexybabe@hotmail.com for a job? well, maybe someone would; what do i know?

but after reading your post, and the others' replies, i realised that a) i'm grateful we don't have the same issues, and b) i didn't give much thought to how i handled my students id's. my juniors, with whom i am entering the blogging/wiki (wiki-ing?) arena, didn't get a choice. i created the user names on our blog site for each, and made it pretty simple: first name-9XX (class). of course, i have multiple popular names, such as matt, and those were matt-b-9XX, etc.

however, on our wiki, they joined with whatever name they wanted. while i encouraged them to use something i (and their classmates) would identify with them, some did choose their own original monikers, including one boy who chose a (long) series of numbers! i asked that they change them back. after all, it's a collaborative project, and if your peers can't identify you, how can they feel comfortable enough to share in an academic setting?

i personally move back and forth between personal (professional) and anonymous participation on the web. anything related to education is a personal endeavour, as i chose to build a professional network online. however, i prefer to participate in my hobbies anonymously, as i don't think my students, among others, need to follow me everywhere i go (i can't even update my family on facebook without students reading it, and they follow me on twitter too).

should students get a choice? i think it's an option students themselves should consider as part of their e-learning: choosing which part of themselves they want to share online, and how they want to do so. (of course, i can say this because i teach secondary school, not primary!)

i lean towards "no", they shouldn't get a choice. if they are participating in a class blog, or class wiki, or any other online academic project, they are representing their school to the world, just like they do on their teams and in their clubs, and as their school reps, they should be appropriately identifiable.

however, i look forward to the continuing debate!

I listened to a Cool Cat Teacher 1-26-07 podcast t...

2009-06-23T21:40:01.581-06:00

I listened to a Cool Cat Teacher 1-26-07 podcast today with Vicki Davis, Darren Kuropatwa and Terry Freedman. Darren and Terry had served as two of four judges for the student work created as part of the 2006 Flat World Project: http://itunes.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewPodcast?id=206531776 I think their conversation is relevant to this conversation.

In the podcast they speak about how best to communicate to students the expectations the judges will have for the student work. The all acknowledge the importance of doing so early in the project so students can grow into an understanding of their potential excellence. Rubrics are mentioned as a key feature in the conversation.

It's not so much a podcast with "answers;" rather it is a rich and robust conversation about how teachers, students and "judges" can begin to learn about and demonstrate standards of excellence.

A lot more in the podcast that I can't go into here. But for this conversation...

Is publishing your work online with your name attached a sign of intellectual leadership? When I take responsibility for my opinions and what I say, write, create, am I contributing to the community something of value?

It might benefit this conversation to think of rubrics (or stages of development or a continuum). If we consider Karl's description in the post to be what we want students to work toward, how would we flesh out the levels of performance for the rubrics, stages of development or continuum in ways that describe a natural order of student learning and growth?

If we do a good job of description with models and appropriate supportive learning experiences that engage and challenge the kids as they grow, couldn't each student then progress toward clearly visioned habits of responsibility and value as they demonstrate their readiness and capacity over time?

And by the way, you can go to a garage sale and ma...

2009-06-23T12:20:31.746-06:00

And by the way, you can go to a garage sale and maybe find a yearbook with pictures, comments and the like with real names and that is not something that is protected. What matters is what we DO with that information legally or illegally; do we sacrifice self-expression for protection or do we give them the opportunity to make an informed choice?

As a social media professional, I think it's great...

2009-06-23T12:18:03.580-06:00

As a social media professional, I think it's great to be able to give students the opportunity to choose what kind of identity they want to use. Give them the pros and cons but don't force them to do it one way. Let them use their names or their nickname or a number. Let them build their digital footprint the way that they want to. You have an obligation to protect them from viruses and phishing scams and the like, but let them choose their lifetime online identity even if it will end up changing.

interesting thoughts. i have waffled back and for...

2009-06-23T08:13:42.970-06:00

interesting thoughts.

i have waffled back and forth. my latest landing - kids use initials - and at the end of high school - sort of like a final portfolio - they pull up all they are most proud of and repost with real names.
(allowing for what barbara refers to as protecting adolescent thought processes from world-wide transparency.)

reading your post today though karl- made me wonder if kids would indeed produce higher quality writing, etc, if they were publishing their true identity from the get go. would they put more stock into all they do in highschool?
i'm leaning towards yes. and am again rethinking full names.

I teach middle school students and am also in a di...

2009-06-22T21:03:53.498-06:00

I teach middle school students and am also in a district that allows students to peruse information online, but does not allow them to publish online. I want my students to publish online as there is immense power (especially when working with jr. high school students) in discovering that other people might actually be interested in what you have to say. I think that a changing point of view should be represented in one's digital footprint. It teaches one to be cautious, and also presents a well rounded person...hopefully. I believe that students should begin building their online identity as soon as possible, because any digital body of work needs time to be built.

That being said though, I think that students under a certain age need to be monitored consistently when they access the online webatorium of thoughts, ideas and dangers. Just as you would not let a grade school student go to the park without an escort I believe young students need a digital escort. I believe that jr. high should be a time of guided independence and then possibly in high school students would need to publish as independent thinkers. I think that using digital security measures would allay some of the need to protect a students' online identity. I definitely think that students should identify themselves as publicly as possible.

This also goes to the heart of issues like cyber-stalking and other forms of digital abuse of another individual. Anonymity allows students to avoid accountability for their actions.

I think it is a real conundrum. Building a digital...

2009-06-22T19:07:37.294-06:00

I think it is a real conundrum. Building a digital footprint is important but on the other side of the coin would I have wanted my adolescent and teenage thought process laid open for all. What I am saying is that as we mature so does our thinking. Over time we may find that we moderate our views on topics about which we were once very passionate. Yet in today's world those earlier opinions may come back to haunt us.

This weekend I was camping with some friends and one shared that in certain professions a digital footprint could be a problem. The example discussed was that of working as a lawyer. I am not sure I agreed with what was said but I did understand the issues.

So while my initial reaction is go for it....I also want to pause and think about what we are publishing.
Thanks for making me think...