Join us this week for a conversation with the booty-shaking Vienna-based DJing duo, Acht Brüste. Listen to Gi and Filipa talk about their experiences of gender and sexuality in Curitiba, Lisbon, and Vienna, creating queer Brazilian funk dance spaces in Vienna, and of course their ever-changing metamorphosis.

Intro: As someone who came out in the late 90’s I sometimes am awed at how quickly the landscape has changed for queer folk. We went from not being able to marry, legally transition or even get protection from discrimination when accessing basic services like healthcare and housing to people who had most of those rights in western countries. As I see those hard-won rights being stripped away, I often feel alone in my memories of the bad old days. A political apocalypse for queer people, a moment when we were legally 2nd class citizens – a time that many of us did not manage to survive.  This memory and acute awareness of what is at stake in sometimes complicated political fights is shared with the artist, Aurelia Theodora Mohl as they talk about the fragility of the nation state, historical lessons and how all of this shows up in their art.

D: What is your name?

A: Aurelia Theodora Mohl. Theodora is the English pronunciation, yeah.

D: What are your pronouns?

A: My pronouns are she/they and in German sie/dey. So dey with a D.

D: You were an artist at Visible Weekend of Trans Joy. How did you find out about it? And get involved.

A: It don’t really remember. It was probably, it probably had to do with the Doodle Group Vienna or with them or somebody I know from them probably. And yeah. Or it was Trans…not TransX, the One Film Project that has been like trying to go since a year. I don’t know, never know what they are. You could say I had my sources.

D: And did you mention Doodle Group? Could you tell us what Doodle Group is?

A: So Doodle Group is an Instagram account/discord server for Vienna based convention art and queer artists. So it’s based around the anime convention scene, but of course if you’re queer or artist and stuff, the Venn diagram is like pretty neat together. So it’s a good mix, mash up and yeah, the group itself the purpose is networking and also supporting artists. So there are meetings, when they are organised, but also like you can tag them if you’re part of it, you can tag them in your Instagram story and they will share your Instagram story. And yeah, just neat little thing.

D: So I wanted to read your description and the pamphlet from our Visible Weekend of Trans Joy. So your description says I have always been a creative mess. As a child, I spent a lot of time daydreaming and making up stories. At high school later, I began to actively write stories. These gave me first motivation to draw, and to learn to draw better. Doodles on the school desk became concept drawings of vehicles, and those became pencil drawings. Until I started drawing digitally over a year ago. Additionally, I have been active on YouTube for about three years now. First I made AMVs and from one sketch piece arose a whole series of interviews and visits from my character Doctor Plague. Meanwhile, I also stream on Twitch and have so many characters and ideas that sometimes my head explodes. But now I’m here and happy to present you readers three of my art pieces. So I loved these art pieces. And can you tell us a bit about this world in your head of stories and characters?

A: Yes. Well, it’s a bit complicated, but I think that’s also a bit of the charm, at least for myself, because it keeps me entertained, because if I’m not entertained with my own stories and ideas, why do I have them. Because I’m not making money, much money with it, certainly. So, maybe let’s mention first the writing. The writing was like the kickstarter. Basically I saw a competition from a local shopping centre. They had like organised in this nearby city, crime stories, and they had, you should write a short story and you had like half a page and from that you should write further, and I was like 12 or 13 and I sent it in. And out of 50 stories that were sent in, I was chosen first place, so that started my head with short stories. But like everything I do, it’s not like a continuous work, but like short brackets where I do it really, really intensely and obsess about it until I’m just done or get distracted. And yeah, that’s like basically, the story of the Swallowers universe. So that’s my main writing that developed over the years. It’s basically since seven years. Six, let’s say six years then. I’m like, yeah, just one more story and I have my first anthology finished. Or I just need to finish that up and it ended up that I have like 20 or more finished stories from 2 pages, to one is 65 word pages. Which are all in this fictional, science fiction universe. So it’s based on ours, but like way in the future and stuff, and all from space opera to cosmic horror, everything. Every idea.

D: Who’s Doctor Plague?

A: That’s in our universe. So that’s the other thing with YouTube, and which is most active right now. That’s Murder Train productions basically, which is my fake production firm. And there you have me.

D: What’s it called? Murder Train Productions?

A: Murder Train Productions. Yes. Really dumb name. Dumb, but fun name. Yeah, and there. I have like, one’s me, a fictional, half fictionalised version of me Auri. Then there’s Aureelian, which is, which is a demon, or better said, a demon with just a floating head and magnificent hair, who started off as the original persona for the channel and stuff. But turned, is now like the lead for Twitch, the presenter or pinch avatar. And Doctor plague is a quirky plague doctor who thinks he’s doing a children’s show called the Quick Travellog, where he goes around and shows people/children on the internet, interesting places and/or people. So yeah, there was a long tension, yeah.

D: And what do you draw from to kind of make some of these characters? Are you drawing like, just from some of the influences, and combined with things in your imagination, or? How do you come up with this?

A: Yeah. Yeah. So, like with Aureelian, was like, the original channel was anime music videos and I started it because I thought, I was still in like a bit of a metal purist phase and I just wanted to have more metal in this and good music videos and conventions, and so on. So I started with him as a persona because I have a bit of marketing experience slash I’m a bit dumb in that case, then start world building. And so yeah, Aureelian had a lot of metal influences and like polite horror, but also comedy. It’s the focus, is always more in comedic, because I know the world is already pretty dark and grim, and I think it’s more entertaining if there are a few jokes, even if it’s like some story about some dark thing that happened in history. It’s easier to understand I think if I can laugh about it. So that and Dr Plague – one influence was that a friend of mine has played Doctor Cosplay, which is like all out of Madeline and everything he made himself with like garbage. And so he gave me at the end like a plague doctor. And Corona made a mask and then it first locked down and then whole characters just started just happening. And yeah, I would say of course influences like, for once with Doctor Plague, you have a lot of comedic influences. Like all the comedy I like, Monty Python are a classic. Maybe a bit of Community, or just general like improvisational comedy and stand-up stuff. Because like the character is, sometimes I have really tight scripts, but then, especially with interviews, I have to be like, OK, I have to get something out of the people and react to them and their stuff and that’s more improv. It basically just happens out of my head and I’m just really interested in history and also movies and literature, even if I’m like mostly watching YouTube video essays, because I don’t know, my brain works like that. It’s a mess.

D: What has it meant for you to have a community of like other queer artists around you. How has that shifted your process?

E: So first of all, having queer friends and queer community is like what brought me to the realisation that I’m queer and getting into the community. I’m from a small village in Burgenland. Til I was 18, I wasn’t really outside of the village for long, and so it took me a lot of time to start getting to know myself, and not what I thought was myself. So it’s a whole process and our people helped with that so. In school, I thought I couldn’t really draw and it was shit and everything. But then, with the later gymnasium years I got, we got a teacher who was an artist herself, who was relatively young and she was the first who were, taught me stuff like how to hold a pen. Or just give us some, a bit of theory or just give me motivation. And that’s like really something a bit mind blowing that maybe it wasn’t bad, but nobody had connected, helped me connect the thoughts in my brain and the same thing is with queer friends and artists, or queer or not, because they just showed me world, or gave me tips or just were there and listened. Or said yo, your things look good. And yeah, as an artist, the worst thing is you’re your own worst critic, and this won’t stop. It only gets worse because you get to know, you get more skill and feel like you have more skills, so you want more out of what you’re working and. Yeah, it gets a lot.

D: A lot of times in the myth of an artist, they talk about the isolation being part of the process. Do you think coming up in this small town in Burgenland, do you think that that was somewhat what was necessary to sort of like create this like whole world of imagination?

A: Yes. Yeah, that goes for both worlds totally, because in the end, my art, like every art, your art is a manifestation of your mind. So it’s not only the crazy ideas, but also your past experience and trauma is certainly things that influence it. The best example for that would be one of the drawings I had an exhibition that was, Do the Evolution, which was like a rage drawing, you could say in which I, which I worked through my emotions I got while viewing a video about the Upstairs Bar, which was a queer bar in New Orleans which burned down in 1947. And yeah, and where they talked about, the YouTuber talked about the whole history of the bar, but also what happened and especially what happened afterwards because that was like the worst thing. Because, the media and the people around them just made the victims of this arson attack – I have to say it was an arson attack – made them their enemies because they got basically outed as queer and basically which, and the media and everybody basically wanted to start witch hunt about these deviants. And yeah, I worked this story in a painting with some other things. It’s called Do the Evolution because it’s also based on the Pearl Jam song Do the Evolution which is basically about man and humanity and how it has always consumed everything in its path, and also they have banger music video with a nice character, nice personification of death which I used. In the front of the, actually fireplace burning I used this personification of death from the music video, which is in an iconic pose which is doing finger guns, which is first reference to the video but also a bit of distraction because the character is queer, queer lions everything, while the burning of the building is bit more abstract. So you will look at the foreground, another in the background, which is also one thing and with this whole story was you could say. When the public turned to the victims because they were queer, they forgot the background for all this. What happened is because a drunk, possibly gay or closeted gay man and was kicked out and then set and then set the place on fire, and people died, people burned to the death or had to jump out of windows, of first floor windows to save themselves. So people, many wasn’t just like, oh, there’s a fire everybody got out now. Many people were hurt. Many people who had died, I think, let’s say many. And probably everybody and the whole community behind that, not only the people who were there at the moment, were probably traumatised for their whole life. So yeah, but this all in that moment in history it was all in the background because, ooh, look at these queers. We must, we must make it public and get them out of our society because they are queer.

D: How do you think that things have changed?

A: Things have changed, but I think especially in Austria or at least in the, or even the Western world, you could call it like that. Western societies. We are leaning too much on the laurels. We are saying, yeah, we are friends. You can marry. You don’t have to hide anymore. But then you look at what progress has been made in queer laws over the years because there’s, like this one group who, at least for the EU, makes an index and shows how much a country did for queer rights just with simple colours. And like in the year 2020, 2021, yeah, was last year, so it must have been the result of 2021. Montenegro did more for queer rights than most European states. Which is like absurd, especially if you have like some knowledge of the Balkans and so on. Like Austria, one law that I like to get out, or one fact is in Austria and you are legally protected based on your sexuality, so if somebody like hit you or would fire you because of your sexuality, then this would count as a hate crime. Which is good. But there are no such laws for gender. So what this means is not only that, because if you’re trans or something, like if you’re a woman, you go on the street, some guy knifes you because he hates women. That’s not a hate crime. That’s a stabbing, but not a hate crime, which means that the in the eyes of the law will go other ways. And you think also is a safe country for queers or general people who are marginalised in societies. So basically everybody who is not the cis white male. But no, it’s not, it’s yes, we did strides in the last year, in the last 30 years, but it’s not enough. We have to do, and the government hasn’t been helping like we saw with the Genderklage lawsuit recently. So yeah, I’m historically and politically interested, so I like to point at these facts and I get really worked up about these facts so. Yeah. At least two other pieces went into this.

D: That’s the horror elements of kind of like our existence right now. A little bit is that there’s always this undercurrent that things could go kind of, stuff could be wrong and there’s a limitation to what kind of legal cover we will be giving.

A: Yeah. Yeah. My father is from Zagreb. So he was 19 when he came from Croatia to Austria, not speaking a word of German. He had, he told me he had German in school. But everybody was like, what do I need that for? But yeah, I got basically Yugoslavian slash system-state collapse baked into my identity, into my own life. So yeah, like you said, it can get worse and most people don’t want to be too negative because there are still procedures in place that help, that the society doesn’t, or society, or at least the political landscape, doesn’t turn too sour. But, there are too many precedents, precedented cases in the last year. Like the gender lawsuit was result of the Supreme Court brief from 2017 in which said yes, not only inter people can say they are diverse or say their gender and stuff, we don’t have to choose between man and woman, and the Austrian state/the Ministry of Interior has basically ignored the Supreme Court brief. Till today, until a few months ago, up till a group of activists sued the state.

D: Based on that precedent.

A: Based on the precedent, because the state actively said ‘I’ve ignored it or said no’. So basically we had now six years of the Supreme Court brief that was actively ignored by the Ministry, or Ministries even. So that shows a bit, that’s like a strong precedent, I think, for both sides. Like it’s cool that the lawsuit was won in favour of the activist groups and I hope we will relatively soon see some bureaucratic changes. But it also shows that, how much basically those who are currently in these seats where they should actually do that, care or how much the Supreme Court has power at the moment. And I know it’s from country to country a bit different but I think in all, in Austria, you should at least think that if the Supreme Court says yo, that’s…

D: That’s what it is.

A: That is what it is that you should do it. Like, yeah, that’s, like, logical. The Supreme Court is there for key constitutional cases. And if in this case, it’s that your Constitution says it is, yeah.

D: One of the things that I’m very familiar with is that a law can say something, but for certain segments of the population there isn’t an equal treatment under the law, as the law is written. Specifically, within the American context, there were certain laws that were written with the understanding that certain populations would be excluded from the protections of that law. And that system was even codified into Jim Crow. You know.

A: Yes, I know. Yeah.

D: This is, this has happened and we saw this happen with women as a class, with people of colour as a class, black people specifically as a class, and so on. So now we’re seeing it in the Western context to happen with this concept of gender and also with the concept of sexuality that those people are being systemically excluded from protection under the law. And so we have this thing where we’re trying at least in some ways to get the law to say certain things that we need it to say. But at the crux of it, the law is only a piece of it, right? And you know that also coming from a small town in Burgenland, I mean the law is this abstract thing. What really matters is how are people going to treat you.

A: Yes, exactly because with the people, I just love the world from Orwell ‘all people are equal, but some are more equal’, which you can put on so many topics. And it’s just really good quote, also. Really like post material. So yeah, the law in effect, the law also reflects the ones, the people who are writing it, and in the longer sense the society. And maybe also the world does in theory, of course, some people who in power place of powers can decide to make a law that’s just favours some people. But in the end, the fact I think most politicians, at least in also in the European sense, are looking out for potential voters or potential financiers past, present, and future then like for their own power, power structure. Because we are thinking with the European Union, we have a bit too knit tight political system that you can just say yo, I am chief of police now and can do what, and what I want to say will be done. This in most European state is not that possible, or at least not like in a [wimp?]. So, in the end you have to get the voters on your side. But if they, but if society is already looking in, like in that way or things, it’s going that way, then you will be more, easier can get the words. So with Burgenland perspective, it’s a small town and I never fit in. My father and my mother also they do not fit in there, but through my grandma I get a bit of a vibe check for the village and like the whole thing with migrants and stuff is still relevant for them because they heard in corners that or from the cousin of a friend who’s married to the second sister of Dad and whom, that there have been again, like some people coming over the border and stuff. And like you, you have to be careful when you go out, or if you go walking around and stuff. So that’s not only what they think what it is, but it also reflects probably the broader society in which they live, because they are integrated parts of the village. They wouldn’t talk with people if they weren’t integrated in their society, because those who know better or think different will probably just say, I know better, I might say a bit, but I don’t want like, the whole village on my bad side because I still live here. Yeah, schau ma mal, in good Austrian sense, so yeah. I don’t know where I wanted to go, but yeah, society is pretty complicated, and even without social media you are in your own little bubble.

D: One of the things and I think we’ll kind of conclude with some of this is one of the things I wanted is to point out is I think a theme in your discussion and also in your work is the actual fragility of things that are seen by the larger society as extremely stable things. And it kind of came out to me when you were talking about your parents’ experience coming from Yugoslavia and having that baked into sort of your DNA. This idea that, you know a world could look like this and then on a dime it could just completely flip and not exist that way anymore. And it again popped up when you were talking about the EU, being almost like too big to fail, right? Like the idea that we’re so big, so safe and so tight knit that hopefully it’ll stick together. I mean, I think one thing that especially people in North America don’t fully understand is how much radical change Europe has gone through, Western Europe, has gone through in the last like, let’s say, 50 years, radical, radical change. And then there’s the radical change of your yourself as an individual. And then there’s this radical change that’s happening in your art. There’s this radical and somewhat catastrophic change in your inspiration with this like massive fire. How do you, what would be in your utopia? In your dreams? The radical change you wish to see?

A: It’s hard to say because like I’m testing political or social ideas and work, but like going from different angles. Like with more real politics standpoint, I really wish that also with Ukraine crisis, I think it’s getting in the right way again, that the EU stops its stagnation it had since the failure of the Amsterdam Protocols does something.

D: The Amsterdam Protocols?

A: The Amsterdam contracts. So around the time the former Eastern Bloc states came into EU, there was movements for next big contract that should bring EU further into a federal state. But it failed. It first failed in England and then that whole triggered a failure of ratification in multiple states, which then led to the Lisbon Agreement, which is a watered down version of that, and, in my opinion, from what I’ve seen with, it’s like the European after the failure. They didn’t do a lot of change, or more reacted to what happens instead of doing something for the future. And I really want, I only see increased wealth for the people in this current system if the EU gets federalized. Because nationalism is the crack of the people. I made this quote based on a saying from quote from Marx, who said once religion is the opium of the of the masses. Yes. And so nationalism is the crack of the masses because it sounds good, it’s like really cheap, but it will fuck you up so hard you will stab your neighbour for a quick buck. And you just look have to look at the 1930s/40s to see what nationalism. What happens. Yes. So yeah, I really think nationalism in current system, EU has a really good system. It has a lot of flaws, especially if you go like lobbyism and stuff, but it has the potential if enough people push that it gets more democratic and more federalized. Because I think democracy should, democracy should be for by the people, for the people, from the people. So the politicians aren’t just somebody who wants to be a politician, but somebody who wants to represent their people, be it their village, be it their district, be it their, be it their state.

D: Do you think it’s possible to be queer and apolitical?

A: No. No way. I’m sorry we don’t live in this world. We don’t live in this world. You can be cis male and apolitical because you have everything that you can want. You see how much privilege you have or how easy you have if you turn from cishet white person, to a queer person, or just change your whole society, your whole societal standing, you see it really, really fast how much of a privilege you had.

D: So how do we find you? How? Do we follow your work. How do we see your art? Of course I want some art that I could also like show people. That like, how would people go on to find you?

A: Sure. Yeah, yeah. So the fastest way would be to go to my card as a bloody card, which is Aureelian with EE dot card with double. How to write it? It’s like an external site with double R dotcom? No. Now I have a QR code on here, so let’s skip the, let’s skip just. Yes. Oh, really?

D: So its Aureelian. So AUREELIAN. And that’s the Instagram, that is the Youtube.

A: That’s the twitch. That’s the Etsy. And you find further links through there, yes.

D: Artist, content creator and travel logger. Creativeness, creative chaos.

A: Yes, I’m just a burning dumpster fire of creativity.

D: But I love it. And it was like such an inspirational and wonderful to, like, talk to you and have this like download of all of the things that you’ve been learning, and thinking about, it’s really important.

A: Yes, I hope it’s not too confusing for the listeners.

D: No, it’s not. I’m gonna edit this down to like 5 minutes.

A: Cool. Well, then you have to meet again for more 5 minutes. Yes. Yeah, you have enough words for me that you can cut it together and let me say anything you want.

D: OK, say The Queer Truth. What is your Queer Truth? I meant to start adding a question and I forgot to do it.

A: Ah so. Queer truth.

D: What is your Queer Truth?

A: Everybody, everybody’s queer.

D: Everybody is queer.

A:  In any definition you want, yeah.

D: Everybody is queer. Thank you so much.

Intro: You might remember the event, Visible – Weekend of Trans Joy, from a couple of episodes ago. It was a coming together of trans folks in Vienna to share their works of art and celebrate around the Trans Day of Visibility. This included an art exhibition, short film showcase, Open Mic, a delicious vegan feast, and a bonfire. In this episode I’m talking to another of the featured artists, Erik Pekny, about using COVID as an opportunity to work on their art, transitioning at the same time, and the power of the internet to connect communities in real-life.

D: OK, so what is your name?

E: My name is Erik Pekny.

D: What are your pronouns?

E: He/Him. What are yours?

D: Mine are she/her. My name is Denise. And I wanted to talk about, you, your art, your engagement in Visible, and sort of like what you’re thinking about in terms of, like your evolution.

E: That’s cool. Alright. OK.

D: So I wanted to read your artist statement from Visible.

E: Oh my god. I don’t even remember what I said.

D: You don’t remember what you said?

E: Yes, I don’t remember. No, I did like I wrote it and I sent it. And never looked at it again.

D: You never looked at it again?

E: Yeah, let’s, let’s hear it.

D: I can’t believe you forgot you said this. OK. Erik Pekny. Am I saying that right? Love Like Us. A visual poem that may be autobiographical, but need not be. Many of us just want to be seen, truly seen and when we do, it might come as a shock. Told through the eyes of a friendly skeleton. Why the skull? In a face that has no expression we find our own meaning, often more than any face of any person can offer us.

E: It’s pretty smart.

D: Awesome. So, a skull.

E: I draw that a lot actually, and I used to think it was just you know because, I don’t know for fun, because I like to draw it. And then last October I started working on that particular comic that’s called Love Like Us, where you had this skeleton person, persona that is maybe me, you know, used. And I used it for the comic and it worked so well and I and a lot of people ask me, OK, this is a cool topic. Why? Why is it a skeleton? Why is it so scary and like? And then I had to come up with a reason and realised as I tried to explain myself ‘Oh yeah’, that made a lot of sense because it could be anyone. It’s not just me and that when we when we draw faces, we immediately see some kind of emotion on it and what I intend to draw in the face, and the emotion might not be what a reader would read in the facing of the emotion, but the skull face has no emotion, so only the text and the circumstance gives it some sort of emotion, that is, whatever you need it to be in the thing. It’s like if you have, there’s these great comics where there’s literally just a smiley face as a person, right? And there could also be anything and the like going that like there’s much better to have less showing, and more interpretation of the reader for the skeleton, and there was sense then, that it’s not true. Right? My skeleton face has a lot of emotion actually can look angry and can look happy.

D: It has a lot of symbolism as well.

E: Yes, yes it does.

D: And like when I look at you I do not think of a skull. Like I just. You know what I mean? Like, I don’t think of like the death and everything, but there’s also something like, there’s a heaviness about it where like, what it represents is more than maybe what it is. Do you see yourself like this in this way?

E: Yes, I also don’t. I didn’t choose it for like the death aspect so much as well. I am interested in that as a like a as a symbolism thing, but also it is the bare minimum of me, right. If you take everything away at the core there’s skeleton, there’s a skull and it’s a good thing. I like that. And in my head with the skeleton and the people, the skeleton maybe meet in the future. They are all like people and then the comic is well, everyone else has the face and skin and I’m just. I don’t have that. The skeleton doesn’t have that. It’s really the core of what I am. And then the rest. Maybe we’ll still come. I don’t know. That’s what it is for me. If I see, like, a friendly skeleton. I think it is friendly.

D: How did you start doing art?

E: I have always been drawing. Like lots of others on the side and I wasn’t particularly good at it, but it doesn’t matter, right? Like I love doing it. And they, you know as you do in school instead of school like, you just doodle and draw a lot and I got really into comics as a medium and I drew my own terrible comics, you know, in school, they’re great. I love them. They are awful. And then I thought, well, better now do a career, a real look. And I did that for a while and I always kept drawing on the side. And I discovered digital drawing because. It’s just so cool what people can do with like concept art and stuff like that. In like when COVID started, and I was just out of a job and also rather unhappy with where my life was going, I thought, well, now we’re all at home anyway. And I don’t have a job. Now I can try the art thing for real, like professionally, like as an actual career and not just as a hobby. And if it doesn’t work out, I always have the excuse of like it was COVID and I didn’t do. And here I am. I tried to get into art school, right after school. But they didn’t want me. And to be fair, I wasn’t. I don’t think. Yeah. Now I think, oh, thank God, I am so glad I didn’t go to art school right after school. It would have been terrible. I would have hated it there. I would not have fit in. I mean no offence, sorry. Or maybe a little. And I wasn’t ready. And then I did a little diploma thing for game art and animation, but I also left that again because it was very focused on the industry, which was cool and I learned a lot of cool stuff, but I realised I didn’t want to like actually fit into that industry where you have you have these kind of artists, and these kind of artists and they are expected to do these very specialised things really well. And I got really bored with that, very specialised things like, oh, I want to do so many things. But of course, wherever you go, you like learn so much about the craft. And that’s cool. And here I am. And I mean, I have a I have a day job. I have a side job. For 20 hours, fix it. Well, my art doesn’t pay my bills, but you know, sometimes it comes and goes. It’s project based so.

D: There’s this thing that I’ve been thinking a lot lately, which is that find what you’re passionate about and make it into a job as horrible advice. Because really what it does is it turns something that you dig and love into something that now your livelihood depends on. And generally that turns it into a slog, right? So it’s not going to be something that you just turn to as a site of refuge anymore. It might be come this thing that is another chore.

E: Yeah, that that is a difficult path to walk, I think because on the other hand. I agree with this and I found that happened to me too because for a while I really only did art as a source of income because I was lucky enough that for a while I had this project going and it was, it was cool, but it turned into a chore. Like really it did, like you said. And then on other days, I found myself thinking oh that’s I mean this is I get up and I go to work, which is at home at my place and I draw all day and then that’s my work and that’s really cool as well. I think under the right circumstances, I would be happy to leave behind any kind of office day job and just do this. But then yeah, it takes a lot of work also mentally to be like OK, but this is my job. And then also maybe some other art is mine and not my job and it is hard to find reasons to still draw to be creative after you’ve been creative for work all day, and sometimes you just you’re out, you got nothing left, you just don’t want to anymore. So yeah. And capitalism always haunts you wherever you go.

D: Capitalism?

E: Yes. Because on the one hand. You have to make money with your art. And then you are online, I mean I’m I have to be online, and I have to be on social media. I’m not particularly good at it, nor do I enjoy it much, but you have to be. You have to sell yourself and you have to ask yourself, do I do something that I know is going to sell well, or do I do something I want to do, or do I want to do something that I think would be good to be out there, which is maybe a third thing. That is maybe more painful than the actual working for a living as an artist because. I know, or sometimes I think I know that well. I wanna do this art thing and nobody will care. And then I get nothing for it, but sometimes that’s wrong. You know, it’s not always true. It’s just my belief that I have to, you know, make money to be a real artist, that you know.

D: Or be validated.

E: Yes. And it’s terrible and I don’t want to think like this. I don’t. And I also don’t, you know, if I see other artists and they’re like, you know, they make their money somewhere else and then they make art. I don’t think that they’re not real artists, right? But you don’t apply the same standards to yourself sometimes, even if you should.

D: So, it seems like you found this community here of other artists. Could you talk a little bit about that?

E: Yeah, I feel like the community found me, and I’m so grateful for it because I’m, I love, I look, I’m kind of hidden away a little bit at home for a long time and slowly other people like oh, come here and come here, and also the way I got to Visible. I think I got recommended by someone to Georgie, a good friend of mine who was like, ‘oh, ask Erik’ and he has things like. And then Georgie asked me and I was grateful, and I would love to be here and I met so many new people, but sometimes I need this little like someone was like, come on, go here and go here. And it’s great when wherever I go, when the people that recommend it, it’s always great. And then I have these contacts and I love it. And it honestly saved my life. Like this friend who I think recommended me. I met them couple of years ago. Which is what made me realise that I am trans, awhile back. Because before that I just, I wasn’t in contact with anybody. And I knew it was the thing, I was on the Internet. It’s not like I wasn’t aware of it, but it didn’t, I’ve never met anyone that I spoke to and was really close friends with them, shared their experience so much with me. Like hang on, wait a moment, this feels too relatable and that, that I’m so lucky that it happened to me. Because I wasn’t really going anywhere. I like being at home. You know, or I used to. I hid away a lot. Because before I transitioned I just hated being out generally and I always felt out of place. And then it was COVID, and I wasn’t used to it and doing my transition and I also hid away because it was hard and I’m realising, hey, I actually like being out, and I like community. This is great.

D: We don’t talk a lot about that. Like what happens, you know like. This kind of like dream deferred thing. Where it’s, what happens to queer folks that never get the ability to fully express themselves because they don’t find community, they don’t find the space, they don’t feel like they have the right to, they feel like they would be persecuted and everything. What it, you know, but most of us queer people we have at least a phase in our lives where we felt that that was true for us. Right. And that just feels so soul crushing. And yeah. So you meet this friend and through this friend, not only do you find community and sort of a mirror in terms of like your art, but also around like your identity.

E: This friend introduced me to more friends, of their friends and I became friends with them as well. And now somehow in the last couple of years, what happened was also that because. I am. I’m not that old, right? I’m 29 now.

D: Ancient.

E: It kind of is though, because then I meet, like younger queer people who are just also for the first time, maybe, you know, come from the countryside. Now they’re in Vienna and they’re going to these events for the first time and I can see them standing there with open eyes and like, yes, I get it. That’s like your first pride and you think, Oh my God, there’s so many. There’s so, so many. And I find myself thinking like you and I, I will adopt you now and you and you and come here and it’s all great. And they wanna, you know. Tell them like it’s great and it’s fine. It’s going to be easier eventually. Like, trust me, it’s great, like, and that all that happened within the span of a few years from, like, myself being like, oh, no, I don’t know anyone. And I’m so scared. I don’t want to go anywhere to like. Yes, come here everyone. What was the question?

D: Then what happened? And it’s still happening

E: Well, it’s still happening. Yes, I agree it’s still happening. And I, I’m also so grateful that now I’ve made these contacts. And already, like when was that, a couple of weeks ago with the children’s book reading and the protest outside, right and when was.

D: The April 16th protest.

E: Yes. Yeah. And it was, it was really easy because I own. I came here without my protest buddy because she was out of the country, which I wouldn’t usually do. But I knew already there’s like a couple of people that I met in Visible earlier would be here and I met up with them and then I met so many people that I already know, thinking, oh this is great. This is it. This is how it’s supposed to be. And that was fantastic. Also, what I said earlier about how you know, you have to choose as an artist to do something that could sell maybe or do something that means something, however. With the right people, you know like that’s the same thing because it speaks to, it speaks to people and then they want to support me as an artist and suddenly I no longer have to decide between doing something commercial and doing something is actually meaningful, because now it’s the same thing. And that is, that was really good on that Sunday when I was selling my art here and people were like ‘oh I love this’, and ‘this really spoke to me’. Really? Great. Thank you.

D: Yeah. I really love your art. You already know that.

E: Thank you.

D: How do you sort of negotiate this space of like who you are, your identity, and how much of that you want to put in your art? How much of that you want to put into the story behind your art, right?

E: I don’t particularly try to, but then it happens anyway. The Love Like Us comic is more autobiographical than what I usually do, or at least I say that because it’s, it is easy to spot what what’s going on there. But I think, I don’t know. I can’t help it. Even if I look back at the things that I used to do back before I even came out and everything. It’s still very. If I had paid attention more to my art, maybe I would have realised something earlier, but I didn’t. So I can’t help it. I tried to keep it anonymous in the sense that I would. I don’t want to tell my story because first of all, I don’t think it’s that interesting, you know. And second, that’s a bit too personal I think to just then show friends –that terrifies me. I can show strangers. There’s this is great post online, something about like here’s something I made and I’m happy to show the entire world and every stranger on the planet except my close friends and family. You stay away because it’s, I don’t know. It’s very, very personal. Sometimes maybe reveals what I really think of some people, so not great. But I think since I started to know myself better, my art has gotten better because I include also biographical things about me in it, and that’s good. I think it is good. And I used to think, well, nobody cares about my story, but then. I guess they do.

D: Where do you see it going. Where do you want it to go?

E: Well I would like to do longer comics or graphic novels, something like this. Realistically, I would also honestly just like to work for an author, like as an illustrator. I have done this. I’ve illustrated a young adult graphic novel with a writer in California who I’ve worked with several times, it was good. It’s a great collaboration. I love him and he writes stories and one of the books I illustrated for him is already out and it was really cool. It was, that happened last summer was like, oh, this is an actual book that is like, you can buy it on Amazon and everything and I illustrated it. And that is, I hope you know I’ll find there’s several projects that sometimes you know just ideas and maybe yeah, you can illustrate this and this, and sometimes something comes to fruition and it’s great. And I’m working on my own thing. That is, of course, you know, between work and hard work that I need to pay my bills. There’s obviously, like everyone has this project right that eventually will be a longer thing. That is my comic, graphic novel story that I illustrate as well. And then I guess I’ll self-publish it or I’ll try sending it to publishers. Let’s see. I don’t know. You know, there’s an option just like, Löwenherz in Vienna. That things like that. That’s what I would try.

D: Yeah, there’s Löwenherz, there’s o*books, there’s ChickLit. All these are queer bookstores in Vienna. So it’s pretty cool.

E: So you know, as soon as there’s something like a Part One finished or something. I do that. No. So between that, I just love. I do enjoy working full projects of other people’s creative visions. This is great. Like people come to me like, OK, can you illustrate this thing that I want for my book cover or whatever? And then they have. But they’re not visual artists that are like, you know, it should be. The vibe of whatever, this and then we work together. And then in the end, they’re like, oh, this is exactly what I imagined, but I never thought it would look like this. It’s like, yes, this is great. You know, it’s like album covers and stuff like that. I’d like to do.

D: Yeah, I love graphic novels and I love the way that they’re able to tell stories, in this very, like poetic and lyrical way, it’s more like a song than an actual story in some ways.

E: And there’s also the, my like Scott McCloud I think is the name of the author who writes about comics, and it makes like how to make comics, comics. And it’s always, it’s more than the sum of its part, right. There’s the images, and there’s the text, and if you put them together there’s more than just the two extra things when it comes together. That’s so cool because few other media can do that. That’s what I love about it. And that’s, when I but then when I say I make comics right, other people are like ‘Oh yeah, you wanna work for Marvel?’. It’s like. No, first of all, I couldn’t. I mean, you know, I wouldn’t say no. I mean, like if Marvel suddenly came like ‘you want to work for us?’ like, sure I will. But you know, it’s not the kind of comics, you know. It means cool, but that’s not what I do. I don’t really. It doesn’t. It’s not really that fit. Also, I can’t, I mean. I never draw a superhero I don’t know, but. There’s so much more, that it’s such an open field that I can do anything with it seemed amazing. Zines and short graphic novels of like amazing artists. That is, that are very far away from what I what people probably assume when I say I draw comics and that’s so cool. The possibilities are endless. Love it.

D: OK, it’s just dawned on me. That I forgot to ask some boring autobiographical things.

E: Go ahead, you can. You can cut this. And put it in the beginning.

D: So focused on the fact that you’re an Aries. Where are you from?

E: I’m from Vienna. I was, I was born in Vienna and then I grew up kind of part time in Lower Austria. So half rural on a farm, which was great. But I am from here, yeah. And I’m still here.

D: You’re still here? Yeah, that happens to Viennese people a lot, right?

E: It does because I think it’s an Austrian thing because there’s only, there’s one big city, right? And a lot of smaller cities. So it makes sense to go if you want to come here to study, you come from all the places. But I’m, I’m already here. And I spent a year in Australia and New Zealand and stuff. So like I went away for a bit thinking I will stay away, because like if you want to have like the international idea of like, yeah, I’m going to go somewhere else where it’s cooler than here. And when you go to places and it’s amazing. But I came back and I actually realised, hang on. I mean I don’t, you know, I don’t have to go far away to find whatever it was that was looking for, which was I guess, community and inspiration, you know. Because just because I didn’t see it as a kid doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. And also it’s a reality, I mean, I can’t just live somewhere else, I need health insurance. And it’s support, you know like.

D: Sorry, I’m American and we don’t believe in health insurance because we believe in freedom.

E: Oh, oh, sorry, sorry. This might shock you.

D: This might shock you, but some of us have health insurance.

E: It’s difficult enough as an artist. You know, if your self-employed, you’re like, OK, but I need health insurance. Somehow. Like, please. Insurance.

D: Yeah, I mean, and I think, I think. That the comfort of Vienna presents all of this opportunity for people that in a lot of other countries would be very much on the margins and be actually, very preoccupied with their own survival, in a way that you don’t have to be as preoccupied here.

E: I guess not as much. It’s hard enough. So it’s like, we love Vienna because it’s cool compared to like. The options that we have here is great, could be better. Yeah, could be so much better. Let’s put this caveat here.

D: Yeah, yeah, April 16 showed us that, right.

E: Yeah, yeah. It doesn’t mean I don’t have to tell this to you, or probably your audience, right? But like we, we all know because I guess we hear a lot from the outside like, oh, but in Vienna, these things don’t happen. And you’re so lucky that you’re in Vienna is like, yes. Yes, I am lucky. I am lucky to be Austrian. But also, it’s not as great and like solved as you think it is. We know this. I get so angry sometimes. Especially because like they tell it to me. I’m like, yeah, it is comparatively easy for me because I’m white, and I am, yes I am trans, but I’m transmasculine, I use he/him pronouns. I am perceived now in Vienna as a man, which is great for me because it’s true, and yes, but that just because, like extended family, and cis people, and they see me, ‘ah you, you’re doing well’ and it’s easy for you. It’s like, yeah. Yes, but also that doesn’t mean, oh god, we’re not all done.

D: Yeah, I think of it this way that. I’ve never seen, Like my status of how things are going never begins and ends with how I’m doing. And I’ve like dedicated my life and all the things into a community-based project. And that’s because it has always been for me about how we are doing, and my we is very expansive, right. But I think that there’s so much toxic individualism, and that how things are going is really for a lot of people just to question about how am I doing?  And I absolutely love being in community with people who are much more concerned with how we are doing.

E: You know, so I think. I don’t know. Maybe it happens to us, a lot of queer people at some point in their lives. That because we have, we have a lot of work to do to think about ourselves, right, because there’s so much figuring out that is happening and then you have to fight for yourself and for your rights, that for a while it seems like ohh. But you know I am. It’s me and my fight against everyone, because if you can feel like this and I think the moment when you realise it’s not an either or thing, it’s actually you know. It is combined in the community like you say, it’s, that is the point, and it’s much easier. It’s not ohh I have to care about myself and also what everyone else is impossible. It’s the other way around, isn’t it? Because the moment you think about us, in a very expansive sense you don’t have to fight for yourself anymore. It’s not on top of that, it’s that, it’s more like if you realise that if you fight for our community, then that’s the only fight you really need cause then, it helps you. Both in the sense that you have a community and in the sense that we know this, I mean, if there’s no, just, you know, save my one thing that my label is here and the rest. We know this.

D: We know this.

E: Yeah, we do know this. We know this.

D: OK so I can’t have a 2 hour long podcast. But I would love to, so I’m going to stop you there because then I have to like edit it down just a little. Bit, but gosh I could talk to you all day. It has definitely been a pleasure. Thank you so much. Do you have any questions for me?

E: How long has this been going on? How many people have you interviewed?

D: Thirty years. How long has the podcast been going on? So I recorded over 100 episodes. Then I paused in 2018, spent the summer in Norway came back, opened this in 2019. And then I’ve been consistently trying to restart it since, so I have all these episodes that are recorded that now I’m going to do this whole footage and I have so many back recorded things that I’m actually going to be in the beginning doing it like weekly, just because I have all of the recordings. That’s pretty cool. But I mean, it’s like my 5th project, right?

E: I mean, if you are creative, you are creative, and you want to do stuff. I’m not surprised.

D: Yeah. Yeah, right. Yeah, the ADD got me. Like I try my best, I try my best. Like it’s a superpower, actually. But you know, sometimes it means that like, sometimes I have to put down a project and then, like, pick it up because like the last four years has been has been such a whirlwind. I open up and eight months later there’s corona. We survived corona, right? Through grit, grit, grit. And then we come back and we’re doing stuff and we have like three street festivals and we started the Activate Queer Youth Club we started queer mutual aid fund. We sustained so many artists and organisations. We’ve had over 150 Drag Queens that have performed through here, you know. We have about a dozen organisations that meet here regularly. So it’s just. It’s like one of those things that’s like, OK. And then that podcast. Remember that podcast?

E: Well, you know, I know how it is. And sometimes when it doesn’t want to be, you know, worked on, you need to pause it. Later pick it up again. You can pause it.

D: Yeah. So I’m picking it up again. I am picking it up again. And yeah, I’m really excited about it. There was something I wanted to ask you that was going to be like my through line because it is a podcast. What is your queer truth?

E: What is my queer truth? Oh my God.

D: On the spot.

E: It’s. I trust that I know who I am and in the same way. If it’s, if it feels right, it’s, it probably is, right? And took me way too long to you accept that. That you know, I don’t need to know why. If it feels right, it’s probably right. And it’s true for more things in my life, actually. It’s very vague. Vague, isn’t it?

D: It’s great

E: And with all the things that I have to come to terms with and think about and wonder, you know, if it feels right. In the end, yeah, probably is right.

D: How do we find you?

E: I am on Instagram. @zebrakrebs_ Yeah. Zebrakrebs.

D: Z-E-B-R-A-K-R-E-B-S, there’s an underscore after it?

E: Yes, underscore. Yeah, but yes, yes, it’s underscore after it, but you’ll find me anyway. And also if you, if you Google Erik Pekny with Erik with a K, Pekny, I come up pretty soon because that that’s a rare name. Which is pretty cool. And I have a website as well as erikpekny.com.

D: Yeah, got it. Awesome. Thank you so much. I hope that you had a great time.

E: Was great, great fun. No idea what to expect.

D: Let’s get started since we’re starting. A little bit late 10 minutes late. Thanks so much for your patience.

M: Oh, good. Thanks for having me.

D: You know, I love to be on time and our alternate universe.

M: Yeah, I’m never on time to anything. So for this, like, they’re internships here. I was like, no, I can’t play. Come like 10 minutes before 15 minutes before like. I can’t play around.

D: Somebody told you about that cultural kind of thing here.

M: I mean, yeah, I was. Aware of it here I. Just don’t care. But when it came to you, I was like if. You care care.

D: Oh, that’s awesome. OK, so first of all, thank you so much. I’m going to miss you so much when you go back. To the states. Who are you? What is your name?

M: Yeah. Thanks for having me. I don’t think I’m going back to the states, but I don’t think I’m staying in Vienna, but I don’t think the US is it right now for me.

D: OK. Definitely not Florida. No, that would be an adventure.

M: Yeah, that would be like. Swimming back to Cuba or something?

D: Not swimming back!

M: My name is Matthew and yeah, where to begin on that? I just finished my Masters degree in psychology, with an emphasis in counselling and I’m from Miami, FL. I’m half Cuban and half Colombian – my family. And I moved here about three years ago to do the degree. I am a dance instructor and I incorporate meditation into the Zumba classes and a little bit of dance therapy techniques. And yeah, I’m interested in holistic psychology. Holistic healing in general, taking different forms of alternative medicines and deviating from solely taught therapy. So I want to incorporate all of that. That’s my goal really at the end of the day and yeah, incorporate music, dance, art. And group therapy was something that was emphasised these last months in the internship here at Villa Vida because I had some experience already. Like I told you before, in class only, but the practical experience with that here I tried to run it like group therapy just for experimentation purposes and to keep also that professional boundary. You know, I wanted it casual. At the same time was like, like still creating those boundaries, you know where I’m not like someone, I’m just kind of the person facilitating. But being that I loved it so much, I really love group therapy, and especially for like the LGBTQ community, or like even for like, foster care children, something like specialised groups, you know, not just like. I don’t think I would do, I don’t think I would do anything in the clinical setting. Dealing with like bipolar groups or like this group or I think I would just wanted to like, communal spaces. You know, I think so. To deviate from the more scientific route, you know.

D: So what was your degree in?

M: Psychology, with an emphasis in counselling.

D: And you were an intern here at Villa Vida?

M: Yes

D: And you did these group discussions sort of like circles where people could talk with each other. Can you talk a little bit about like what came up and what your intention was for those groups?

M: Yeah. So, my intentions were to explore different facets of one’s profile, their psychological profile. So that included, specifically here that includes identity is a big part of that and sexuality is a big part of that. Community, interpersonal relationships, healthy boundaries. And also finding tools within yourself – which we didn’t really get into the practical aspect of that, it was more people – which still came out beautiful – It was more people, kind of just like bouncing off their own opinions and their own livelihoods, their own experiences. And then there was a little bit of debate. There’s not so much conflict there, a little bit of disagreements, but it was still very light-hearted in that sense. My intention is behind that was really just to create a safe space for people to talk about their life and their experiences. I got the feeling that a lot of people who did come, they didn’t have that or they were looking for that and those were the people who were the most talkative, interestingly, than the people who are a little bit more like just curious and they were a bit more. Those people, they, they really just wanted to vent. They just wanted to express something that maybe they didn’t have the friends with the community to do it with to do it, yeah, to do it with. And so you know, honestly really the offers that already naturally – like in all the events that you do in the parties and just the space itself. But I think this was, I think the intention behind it was coming from a more professional perspective. Like I don’t know professional was the right word but formal or like. You know you have like discussion panels and things like that, right? But it’s not as like interactive with the audience, right? It’s like people, experts talking and things like that, right? I think this was just like whoever you are, just whatever opinion, whatever experience you’re likely queer, who’s coming, and just you’re just going to share. Share your experience and you’re going to empathise with others, and you’re going to find a lot of, you know, healing involved in that because you, for someone who thought like your thought or your experience was its own island, it’s like you realise that you know you’re not alone.

D: Did anything unexpected come out of that for you? That you just you didn’t think that maybe this was going to come out for someone, or someone was going to walk away with this effect? Did any of that happen for you?

M: I don’t think there was any like revelation moment, but I think emotionally, yes, I didn’t, I don’t think I could have really expected what was going to unfold. But there are a couple of people who cried, and there are a couple of people who like said very intimate and personal things. And you know, the setting is, didn’t call for that. That was on them. There was nothing about confidentiality involved, and also like it’s not even a reoccurring thing that we’re going to keep seeing each other. All the practical figments of a clinical or therapeutic setting, whereas one would feel more comfortable to disclose such things, they did it anyways here. I, of course I would want them to be, to say that, but there were like 2-3 or two people who were bawling like in front of everyone and then someone else started, like it was like a chain reaction. And also that’s the thing I love about group therapy. It’s like not to like superficial like it, but it almost feels like you’re watching a movie unfold right? And I’m still part of that. But it’s beautiful because, like, it’s like everyone’s own little, like, not little, but their own dramatic, like comedic and ensemble of all these different genres of their life, you know, and one person starts crying and says something about their religious trauma with their family or something, and the other person is like, you know, they share their part and they get emotional. And then I’m just like, wow, there was like, some fireworks happening here, you know, in the in the, you know, when you reach a breakthrough, it’s a good thing. But it’s also a negative thing. Because it’s very invasive. So that to me, were beautiful moments. I don’t think I really expected that concept wise, not really like I don’t think so. I think that the like doing my research in in the psychology programme, I think like I have a clear or a good grasp on like where people tend to fault in their boundaries and a lot of like limitations in in their conflict or where trauma, kind of how it manifests in life and things of that nature. When it came to the abstract aspect of concepts like identity and sexuality. No, because I’m already so fluid in that like that, you can’t really surprise me in that. Like you can like. Anything goes in that sense. And everyone had so many opinions about identity and sexuality, you know, like just. Oh, one thing actually. One thing, yes. I like, for some reason I really liked, and I think it did bring something into life for me where people talked about queerness, rather than sexuality, and queer culture, and how that’s like kind of all-encompassing of so many different aspects of gender expression. You know what you wear, how you speak, how you present. But for some reason I think I still had like, I didn’t necessarily believe that, but I didn’t really affiliate so well with queer culture. My affiliation with queer culture was more coming from a place of sexuality, you know which, that to me, never really made sense because I don’t really like, I’ve never really like, emphasised my sexuality. One because it’s private to me, and also too, because also trauma and also a couple of other things. But for me it never felt like I’m not queer because my sexuality, I just like this, you know. But what is queerness than to me? And hearing people’s different understanding of their own queerness. It was so relative, that it was some, it was very comforting for me because I was like, OK, queerness is like this idea, you know, it’s like this. It’s like this. It’s not this like. Black sheep mentality. It’s so much more bigger and special than that. It’s like this. Like it’s just the deviation from the norm, which can be anything. Anything is weird and it’s like.

D: Everything is queer, everything is queer.

M: Everything is queer. Yeah, exactly.

D: But you know, queerness does have this kind of distinct starting point, which is around gender identity, sexuality and politicisation. And I think that that’s the thing that has really kind of caught me off guard about queerness being now, or the way that people are using it in the lexicon is that they mean LGBTQIA+. That’s what they mean. But when queerness first started being used, it had a very distinct political underpinning, which was around radical politics. It wasn’t like, oh everything about me is normal except for my sexuality or my gender identity. It’s like no, like, I reject normalcy. Yeah, I reject this kind of idea of patriarchy and heterosexuality as the starting point that we all have to sort of like measure ourselves by, the measuring stick. Queerness as a fuck you. Like that level of radical politicisation.

M: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right, right, right. So you wouldn’t like pinpoint it down to just sexuality or gender identity?

D: I would say that that’s the starting point.

M: Is that not umbrella though?

D: That’s like the that is, that is definitely the umbrella. I mean like as the alphabet mafia has gotten bigger, right? Like it’s so much easier to say queer than it is to say, LGBTQIA+, right? So I understand that that’s why people are choosing to see, say it, queer as that. But the thing that I would like people, or I always try to remind people, and why there’s queer all over so many of my projects, you know, there’s Villa Vida, the queer community cafe. There’s this podcast, The Queer Truth, right? And you have to realise I started that 10 years ago, right. When no one was saying queer. And the reason why that that has always been an important term for me was because of the political implications of the term. Yeah, that, yes. You know, I am queer with regards to my sexuality, but I’m also queer with regards to my politicisation.

M: Should I interview you? Can you just like elaborate a little bit more on the politicisation now? Like what would be of like? What would be some attributes that you would say specifically that like, OK, like let’s say like I’m, like, fuck the patriarchy, I’m a feminist, let’s say, like I hit a couple of attributes that you assign to that, but I’m straight. Would I not be queer? If the starting point is sexuality…

D: The starting point is sexuality.

M: And then everything else aligns politically.

D: And then everything else aligns politically. When queer as a term started being used, it was as this counterculture term in in the sense of. Like there was this big push for oh, we’re just like you. Right. So there was this big PR campaign that was all about marriage equality. That was all about trying to convince mainstream society that we weren’t threatening and that, you know, we were brothers, sisters, cousins, uncles. And to get certain rights pushed through, for a certain segment of the population that could access those rights. The reason I gravitate towards queer is because I’ve never been a part of that segment of the population and there are many people that aren’t, and that I’m much more politically aligned with, that I wanted to be represented or I want to signify that I’m representing in my politicisation.

M: Yeah. Yeah. It’s like this. Like, we don’t want to be, we don’t want to be like them, that agenda or that message is kind of deterring away from the fact that that there’s something wrong for being different, right? But that’s what I don’t understand when it comes to queerness. It’s like is queerness just diverse, like it’s different? You know, it’s like. Because I do understand that it starts from a sexuality point. Or gender identity point. I’m just like, I’m more curious about like all the other aspects that are around queerness besides those two things, because those two things are quite obvious for me.

D: I mean, with the way I see that, is that that identity can be a point interrogation of all of these other kind of like political ideas, that’s the way that I see it. But like for you about being like, I want to come back to that point about you being private. I got my mom would have loved that, I have to say my mom would have been like, so happy if I was just kind of like bisexual on Wednesdays from 2:00 to 5:00 and only privately. I think my mom would have absolutely loved that. Where did that impulse come for you? That OK, I’m over here and my sexuality is over there and no one needs to know about that. That’s just me and me alone.

M: Yeah, I think that I think that that comes from a place of obviously suppression, you know, growing up and me just coming into terms really with my sexuality, just within the past, when I moved to college, when like six years ago for my undergrad and really started exploring that side of me and really started coming to terms with that side of me. But at that point, it was like something that, like I do take pride in my sexuality and I do take, I take pride in just myself in general and I have no guilt for it or anything like that. So right now it doesn’t really come from a point of suppression. I think starting point it came from a place of suppression, definitely.

D: Now let’s have it.

M: Now it’s no. Now it’s more like I’m like. It’s gonna sound pretentious, but I just, I’m more amused with the idea of having such an expansive identity and not really like allowing one thing to define me. I know that sounds very blah blah blah.

D: This is what I was teasing you about.

M: I know, I know. I know how it sounds. But that is how I emotionally and spiritually feel. And, you know, and I just, it’s difficult for me to. I mean, I’m moving. I’m living in Vienna, like I’m trying to move to another country. You know, I’m. I like women and I like men. I like you know, sometimes I’m masculine, sometimes I’m feminine, or in between or whatever. I don’t, I really do just like to have this diversification of identity. And for me like, yes, I am bisexual. That is not diversification. It is that, right? But it’s more like, I don’t know, I never really like felt like ‘Oh, I am bisexual’ so this means like, place me in this like entire, I don’t know, set of like personalities and people and places and this and that. And it’s just like I don’t want to be boxed into, you know, let’s say the name.

D: I think that this is this generational thing that we kind of come up against around like the purpose of identity and the uses of identity. I think the thing that we talked about before in our previous discussion was that I see a lot of people coming to me or younger people specifically coming to me and saying, well, identity is this thing that is confining, that is limiting. And I don’t want to put a stamp on me that says, OK, I’m this and then have people dump their preconceived notions of what that is on me. But from my generation, when, you know, like. You know, many of us died, right? I’m not, I’m not being hyperbolic when I say this. A whole generation of men my age are now dead. And for me as a woman, like, there were not a lot of sites of safety. The identity was this portal to freedom. The identity was this place where I could say, oh, OK, now if I hang out with other queer women, all of a sudden I can be fully myself. I can be fully myself. Not, OK now I’m going to be limited to who these queer women think I am – but more so, I can now express myself as I really AM, and as I fully AM. Where it was, if no one knows because I’m in the closet or because I’m in a place where I don’t have the safety to speak about being queer, for example, that was the was the lack of freedom for me. But I understand that that’s just coming from, that’s coming from very different moments in history.

M: I was gonna say, I think what came to mind as you’re saying this, that I think with the introduction of like, I’m a social media baby, I’m an Internet baby, my, our generation is that. And what we’re seeing online is like basically just overflow, or just really a lot of abundancy of information and through that lens we’re seeing such like a vast array of personality of identity, of who you can be, of what you can do, of like who you are essentially, you know. And I think that maybe perhaps it, before for you it was like you had only select options and those select options were like opening an entire portal into something new. Whereas the portal itself I think for my generation is, like everything.

D: Everything.

M: Yeah, exactly. And it’s overwhelming, mind you. And there is probably, the thing is that one can argue that there’s an identity crisis, but at the same time, I think that’s the whole thing. It’s like deconstructing what identity is. But I have to say it in the group, like when we talked about identity, they made some good points about how like there’s nothing wrong with identity, or identity is like what you were saying, is a way to orient yourself in this world, right? And I understand that. I still live, I’m still queer, like I still, I still all the time identify myself as things American and Latino like whatever it is, a dancer and all of that comes with its. You know, so people are hypocritical because they pick and choose when they want their identity to be convenient for them. And you know all that stuff. But I think when I see that personally, it’s more coming from a place of my own discomfort of like. Yeah, of what I just said. Yeah, of that, I think it’s. Spiritually, it’s like I just, I feel multidimensional and so. It’s like you know. I also like the idea of just, continuously identifying also feels like some level of separation as well. To some extent I think underlying, you know, like Us versus them kind of thing, which it is societally, politically obviously there are is still that. But I think like the underlying principle of that spiritually. It rubs off on me wrong like, yeah, you know I don’t, I like this, you like that period. Like sexuality wise, queerness wise is perhaps something different than I would say, since we’re just talking about how queerness is. Am I rambling here?

D: But I also want to get back to you almost making me cry. I feel like there is some sort of, something, you got the juju going on the ‘come cry now’. I’m usually the one making people cry because as, I like to joke that as a barista and a bartender I’m a double threat. So, like people come, whether they’re, they’re drinking or not, they’re just like, so life story. Let’s go. Part 12345 and then they’re crying. Skip the small talk.

D: Skip the small talk.

M: What do you dream about at night?

D: Oh my God. It’s a lot, but I wanted to get to your book. So you had mentioned in passing like when we were getting to know each other that you were a poet. But then, when this book happened, I was, you know, I was a bit surprised. And you were like, well, can I do the launch? Can I do the book reading? And I was like, of course, definitely, I mean you have to. I’m just like, you know, like a lot of us, because I’m a poet as well. Now that’s where I get really private. There are many.

M: Right.

D: There are many of my poems or most of my poems no one will ever, ever read. But for you to be like yes, and I wrote, I did the book and I did the editing and I bound it and boom, boom, boom.

M: I’m not going to wait around for some publisher.

D: Eyes Drawn and Hallucinating. What inspired you to do that?

M: Well, my first poetry book that I released was Eyes Closed and Travelling and it’s an ode to really imagination and creativity with limitation, of the mind, of being a human being and meditation. Essentially, you know, your eyes can be closed or you can be unaware to some extent, but you can still, but that’s the first book. This book was an ode to that as well, and I wanted to keep it within the same theme I guess you can say. But this one was more like now I’m more conscious of the things that are happening around me because I’m, and woefully, to some extent, curating these energies in my life, sometimes unconscious, sometimes not. But Eyes Drawn insinuates that you know you’re an artist of your own being essentially, you know, and hallucinating. Because it’s a lot of things that I reference or talk about are quite surreal, and my experiences of how I explain my experience in a linguistic sense tends to be a bit more like what I was telling – I forgot your name, sorry, Michaela yeah – that it resonates more with me when I explain things, like at least in the written form, things that are personal to me and vulnerable in the abstract form creates some like cryptic language, some mystery. So that’s the hallucinating aspect, you know, and seeing an object in front of you, and there’s some transcendentalism in that as well, so. I know I’m kind of going all over the place. But for instance you look at a piece of leaf and that piece of leaf is a mirror for your life or, you know, for your queer identity or just simple objects in place. Simple, simple moments. Simple experiences that are drawn right in front of you through life or through your own conscious efforts or unconscious and it creates an entire ensemble of your reality and your reality essentially is your own hallucination. Not that it’s not real, but it’s your own private interpretation of how things are unfolding around you, I would say. I didn’t know you would want to talk about the book, actually.

D: Uh oh, uh oh, I had to like tag your things because I couldn’t find the page numbers. Is that on purpose?

M: I ordered accidentally like 50 copies and they didn’t have the page number so I was like screw this.

D: I’m not waiting for page numbers.

M: Like you’re gonna get when you get. You just enjoy the book if. You don’t need to read that. There’s like. 50 pages. You’re fine. I don’t talk about queerness, really, though in this book.

D: I noticed, but I want you to read that poem.

M: OK. How did I know you would?

D: Why? What?

M: I knew no, just really, intuitively, I promise you. I promise you. I had a feeling like I’m not even kidding, like when I gave the book. I was like – she’s going to focus on this one. She’s gonna, she’s gonna like this one.

D: I have other ones.

M: She’s gonna. I don’t know. She’s gonna like it or hate it. Or something. But she’s gonna. She’s gonna probably ask me about it. She’s gonna something about the poem.

D: I think it’s a good jump off point, but definitely I want you to read that poem.

M: OK. So they took a census today. Yesterday I lived 2 doors down from laughter. Grandma on a roller coaster, grandma on a roller coaster, grandma on a roller coaster, grandma on a roller coaster, grandma on a roller coaster. I had to keep myself reminded, foolishly, frantically for 5 minutes while searching for a pen to write it down. I was afraid of losing the thought. Fearful of abandoning the comedic spark. What would happen if I let the journalistic horrors sway my probably toxic positivity that I convinced myself of sometimes? I couldn’t take the chance. Tomorrow I’ll be 3 streets, a side, a tyrant. Crushed bones in Haiti, crushed bones in Haiti, crushed bones in Haiti, crushed bones in Haiti, crushed bones in Haiti. I sat on the Atlantic and waited for those bodies to emerge. And unlike our patriotic outcry, my idea of social action was to mourn my own detachment. I recall the social media frenzy about Caribbean bodies turned up ambitious and sour. Ones that dreamt to make a home out of double standards, a home that would seldom feel like shelter. I sat and watched what seemed to be the only real country and the thought of more bodies kept me coloured, discoloured. Even to me coloured, recoloured homes would hardly feel permanent either, and axiom of suffering unveils when our fantasies stare back at us. I am a victim of this bystander in an experiment that is somehow the noise of insufferable conversation. I hear talks about escape and post about finer lives all among, crushed, discoloured and uncovered skin and bone. Today they took a census. The man dancing in the front row, the man dancing in the front row, the man dancing in the front row, the man dancing in the front row. I searched deep to remodel the emotional martyrdom at stake. I felt like I didn’t have the right to comment on poverty, or communism, or freedom. I slept in boxes with guilty ventilation systems. I polished the global stage of the passport sold on black markets. Maybe I could talk about my double identity and triple standards. American. American enough? Latino? Not quite. Austrian? Too exotic for the likes of me. Maybe I should wage an oppression war so that I don’t remiss on privileges pressed over my sinful shoulders. Maybe instead I’ll just keep myself reminded of beautiful things and hope that if I cast a beautiful net, I’d catch only beauty, maybe. Today, they take a census today and they counted only what remained. Did you like this one?

D: I did like it.

M: Thank you. Yeah, I had a feeling you would.

D: Yeah, I mean like one of the things that I thought about when I read that poem is that, like, I think it definitely reflects a lot of what we spoke about with regards to our internal philosophies about like how we engage with the outside world and everything. For example, you’re going back to Florida. I’m sorry, you’re from Florida. You’re like – you said going back, you’re like, nuh-uh.

M: Ha. No, no.

D: You’re from Florida? Yeah. You’re families there, right?

M: Yes, I’m a Florida man, yes. But Miami’s not Florida, let’s get that right. Let’s get that straight. Miami is not Florida.

D: Yeah. Miami, right? Yeah. Just in the same way that Vienna is not Austria, right?

M: Exactly, exactly.

D: But right now, Florida is the epicentre of anti-trans, anti-gay, anti-black legislation. How do you engage with that? Like how like especially given that so much of your work is focused on psychological well-being and holistic well-being, how does one engage in a hostile environment while maintaining that well-being?

M: It’s interesting though, because when getting this internship, I like kind of came more into terms with the fact that I’m not really active politically, socially. You know, in that sense, like social activism and whatnot. And I think it’s not that I never had an issue with it, or I never wanted to do something about it. It was just more coming from a place where I felt like I also need to protect my own and doing that was coming from a place where I know my strengths are, which is psychology. So it’s like, how can I give back to the community and those, from that lens? So I that’s just maybe a little bit of a side note. Because I did become a little insecure here on that note. I was like, shit, I’m like, not really like, especially like here. The presence of it is so powerful. You know, it’s like you guys are getting shit done. You guys are like revolting against the you know, the conservative douchebags here and whatnot, and, like making statements, powerful social statements, public statements with just your existence and what you do. And I was just like, I don’t know how, I don’t know how to go about that externally and socially, because it just doesn’t, for me it feels like a little volatile and hostile and I’ve dealt with things in my life where I’m like I tried to ameliorate conflict, to the best of my ability and my way of doing that, my armour, my weapons of doing that – to my belief – is more so working on an individual level with that person. And having you know if they want to do that – like tell me your sufferings and then cry about it and then go out and protest about it, you know and like, OK, that’s beautiful. But as far as my externalisation of that like, that’s as far as it goes, really going back to Florida, like for instance, how I deal with that, I think I’m too busy dealing, trying to balance out the dynamics of my family then even, like, even curate the idea of how I’m going to manoeuvre policy wise. You know, I often think about, too, if I were to go back to the states, like right now in my life, I’m like, how can I even give, how can I give back, you know, socially? With my career, you know I’ve worked towards something in a job. It’s like, am I, I think I want to aspire to actually make a change. As cliche as that sounds, but you know, I’m 24 and I’ve just got my degree and like now it’s like career wise, what the fuck am I going to do? Who am I going to be in that lens, you know? And I often think like, damn, if I went back to Florida, like, could I, could I like, what could I do? Could I make a change? Could I like but, but from what perspective, psychologically? From what perspective therapeutically? That’s where my roadblock is and that’s why I really don’t step anymore into that – rather than just social activism on Instagram or something. But protest and all that stuff like I never, never really felt a calling to it, I guess, as selfish as it sounds, but it just didn’t. It felt like I could be of better service elsewhere. I guess you can say you know giving back here to the community was felt like something that was meaningful in itself, you know? I don’t know, but maybe.

D: And very directly of service as well. So you’d like to see an impact happen right away and in some ways, activism feels like too much of an abstract action to take while also causing a lot of psychological anguish.

M: That’s an interesting perspective. I didn’t think of it like in the immediate sense like that, but that could possibly be it. Yeah, the abstract sense. It’s confusing, you know, I mean like. There is one cynical aspect of me it’s like, am I really making a difference, you know? And I think that’s a little bit behind everyone’s mind regardless, like if they do it or not. They should do it because I do believe in principle, you know, you do make a difference, but in principle is that enough to enact action for me? It’s another thing. But yeah, I would say that’s that is the case. Yes, that is very much the case. Otherwise like for instance, what would you say, how can you integrate what I study, what I do, what my ambitions or what I said I want to do – with social action? Like besides like informing or advising like government or lawmakers. From my perspective like that’s what I would think. But what would you say, how one would integrate that?

D: I’m going to answer that with the story. So, when I lived in North Carolina, the last job I had was working for student action with farm workers, where we basically worked around organising farm workers in North and South Carolina, and amongst any potential issue they would have. So we worked labour rights organisations, immigration organisations, child welfare organisations and so on and so forth, like there’s so many issues. And one of the things that was impressed upon me is that when you’re dealing with vulnerable communities, there is not one skill that you have that would go untapped. Yeah, like literally I can cook. We need that. Like I know how to take care of kids. We need that, you know. I’m a doctor. We need that. So there’s the typical things, and then the atypical things that you would need. You’re dealing with people that are in a marginalised community, you’re dealing with super high rates of trauma and traumatising events, so of course you know it’s.

M: But like what it sounds like you described before was more from a volunteering perspective because like any volunteer…

D: Or from an organisational perspective, you know or in a formal perspective in terms of your offering.

M: Yeah, right. But in the in the more professional perspective I would say. Not that cooking is not professional or anything like that, but from a…

D: I do cook professionally.

M: Right. You babysit professionally, I guess, right you’re a mother.

D: I don’t get paid for it.

M: Yeah, well, of course I can do all those things. Anyone can do all this, not anyone, but people. Like, that’s the general consensus. If you can work with your hands, you can offer anything of service. But specifically, like if I am entering an environment where, for instance, like you said, it creates, it does create psychological, psychological anguish. I don’t do well with violence at all. I like freeze and not that I’m saying most people do. It’s just, like I would rather just not deal with those douchebags at all if it were up to me, you know? And because I dealt with them my whole life, if I’m being honest, family wise, everyone around me, the whole culture around me actually, you know, and it’s just. The whole like, yelling at a wall for me is exhausting, you know. If I am actually going to create change it’s going to happen like I said, where I know I can, like where I know, like I want to sit on you one-on-one. Am I going to go to a like an immigration shelter, and do these people need someone to talk to professionally? Let’s do that. Let’s talk you know. Besides that for me, like creating service in servitude. From the perspective of interpersonal or communal therapeutic aspects. Does this, does this make sense?

D: It does make sense. It does make sense. I mean, this is some, this is a conversation I have with my son all the time you know. Talking about like, my years of protesting on the street or all the kinds of activism I do, there’s just intense amounts of cynicism, and sense that, you know, that is too small potatoes for it to make a difference. It’s not. I mean, we just had this massive protest that happened on April 16th when the right wing was trying to shut us down because we have the Drag Story Time for Children. And so people came to support us, and they outnumbered the right wing folks. And the thing that they continue to talk about was the feeling, that they felt. How sustaining and uplifting it was for them, that they never like, they were able to look around and say, OK, as a queer community, this is how we show up to protect each other. How important that is to see in real time, not online. I mean like and that has its purpose. And I love that, and I’m a digital native. And yeah, I’m chronically online. I get it, right. But there’s something about that visceral feeling of that direct, energetic connection of being with people that have your back. And are willing to put their bodies in service of having your back. That’s huge and I don’t really think that we found another medium that would substitute for that. And on the other hand, that does make an impression on the powers that be. Yeah, right. A massive impression. Who’s showing up? Who’s hitting the streets? What protests are we looking at right now?

M: Right. So, but what’s the difference? Because it sounds like what you described before, the emotional aspect, is something you’re describing that’s creating a space of community, reassurance and loyalty, commitment to that. So, what would, what would be the difference in like a protest of that same energy, and then like hosting community events here and having that same energy. What is the nuance? What is the difference in that nuance of protest versus…

D: I think it’s about the scale. Like we’ve had super powerful events of course, but there’s something about the scale of you on the street with 1000 people. Right? Like-minded people. I’ve been to some very historic protests. One that comes to mind for me right now was the WTO present in Seattle, the Battle of Seattle, right. Where I didn’t go to work that day and took my kid. And she didn’t go to school and we went and protested the, you know, World Trade Organisation. And it became this epic thing. I did not know, right, when I chose to do that, that it would become this epic thing. You know, I was doing that as part of Dyke Action, at the time, was a group that I went with and we were all sitting together. And then you know, not that I thought it would be small. But to look around and we’re next to this migrant group, we’re next to people that drove up from California for 20 hours to be there. We’re next to people that were provisional workers, that were like I’m not going to have you know a day’s worth of pay and that may make or break me, but this is so important and I’m going to be here right now. And there’s something about that that words cannot express. The willingness to, and especially for people with everything to lose, to say I will sacrifice because this is so important to me.

M: Right. Right. Yeah. So do you feel like from my perspective, do you think I would be coming from a place of privilege, whereas I don’t feel like this dire sense to take part into some, a demonstration such as?

D: I don’t know where it’s coming from. I mean like it, it could be coming from privilege, but it’s, from what you’re telling me, it’s also coming from a very real place of self-preservation. There’s some people that just do not have the capacity, right, to do that. And you have the training and also, I feel like you’ve done like a lot of self-work to know, kind of like what your boundaries are, what your limitations are, and what your skills are, and how you want to affect change in the world. So that’s who you are like, I’m not like one of those activists that are like, if you stay home, fuck you, spit on your grave. We can’t talk. We can’t be friends. Podcast is cancelled, everybody.

M: I also do think that that’s like a phenomenon of my generation where you have like a sense of guilt and doubt because of, because you have the sharing of information on a wide scale and the Internet and it’s just like, there’s like this, I think there’s this push to do more or…

D: Bute on the flip side of that, I absolutely, and this is just a personal ick, my ick is virtue signalling. My ick is oh, yeah. You know, here’s like the back, back in the day, there was that Kendall Jenner Pepsi commercial, right. Like, that’s where I see. Like a lot of people’s activism, quote, air quotes.

M: Right. You’re talking about like, when all the campaigns come out in, like, June and like, they’re quiet the rest of the year.

D: The rest of the year, exactly. I’m not really interested in the virtue signalling. I don’t think that helps anybody. But protesting, I believe, is part of the real work of social change and political change. I think it is necessary for the powers that be, as well as the larger society to see that we refuse to bend on certain things and that we will take up space. That’s huge, but it’s also not a requirement of everybody to do that, because I do understand that it’s not something that everybody can do. People are coming into this world with all manner of situations, right?

M: Yeah, definitely. Yeah, in my case, I would like to explore more of that in the future. I guess I’m just figuring that out right now in my life. I think like the last years and what I’ve really prioritised is really like, like you said, my own self development, my own like, you know, prioritising my own well-being, in the day. For me, that never really like reflected back into the environment around me, I guess not really. Maybe I’ve been in a safe bubble, but.

D: So you said that you might not. Return to Florida. Where you going?

M: No, no. I’m thinking of going to Portugal.

D: OK. You speak Portuguese?

M: No. But I will learn. I will learn. Like German, but I will learn. Well, I’m going to the Philippines for a couple of months first.

D: OK.

M: Just my own little like retreat. Just gonna get away little. Quiet the mind, quiet the body, spirit so. And yeah, and then I’ll figure it out then. I can start applying for some jobs in Portugal, maybe Spain. Just try a little something different. It’s going to be hard to say, to leave Vienna. Vienna feels like home to me now. But yeah, calling some, just calling out me. You call it calling out my name like.

D: Portugal’s calling your name you, but you’ve been there before, right?

M: No.

D: Oh my gosh, I love this. Love that level of wanderlust. Like I’ve never been there. I’m gonna move. Gonna move tomorrow. I love it.

M: Never. I never came to Vienna before coming here. I knew nothing about the culture actually, I just came here for the programme.

D: I just get a sense you need that sun. Miami boy in Vienna, it’s not gonna workout long term. Not long term. You did two winters. That’s like two tours.

M: It’s true, though, it’s true. No, it’s true. Like I do tours. It’s true. Like, my mood shifts completely in the summer. And then I’m like, I can live here. I could totally live here. I love it here. And then, like fall starts coming. And I’m like, why would I? Why am I here? Why? For the next like three months. I’m like, this ain’t it, this ain’t it. And then you forget about winter when the sun comes out. Because Vienna in the summer is magical. Honestly, it’s insane how beautiful and like lively everything is here in the summer. It’s really nice.

D: It is magical. Yeah, I found this dress on the street. Like on Sunday.

M: Oh, that’s so beautiful. Wow.

D: That’s, that’s how magical it is. Like people are like you want designer clothing? I’ve left it on the street.

M: What? Yeah, there’s like an event in every corner. Music, arts, everything. You know, I don’t know. I’ll see. Like, it’s just a matter of job opportunity because money is important in that sense. I have to just see, like, where I can be situated. And whatever opportunity comes about, you know that can support me, funding.

D: Well, I have to say that you are an asset to any place, in any community that you choose to be a part of. It has been our absolute pleasure and honour that you chose to kind of be of service here at Villa Vida.

M: Yeah. Thank you so much. It was honestly, my pleasure, my honour as well to be of service, definitely to the queer community too, you know. I feel like I, that is something that is very personal in my life, and I say it’s private my sexuality, but it is something that’s foundational of me, you know, and it is something, it is how I, like my gaze is tuned to a queer lens at the end of the day. And no matter what, you know my spiritual abstractness, would mine to say. But, but so it felt like I actually really gave back to the community, you know, and that’s really at the end of the day, like I really wanted to get into counselling, to work with, like LGBTQ community or very marginalised communities. Teens and addiction populations and whatnot. And so I actually felt like it was very meaningful, you know, existentially, it was very purposeful. It was like, I wish there were more of it throughout the week. It was just like that one time, but I like. It was. It was fun. And also it was just, it was also a way for me to grow and even in my own sense. It’s like, it allowed me to create like a more, like stark compass of what I want in life and who I want to be. No, because even the art therapy and on this, on the drama that this, this was all the first time I did that you know I just did like research, of course, throughout the week a little bit of research on it. And of course, integrated my personality with that, but they actually went well, like, you know, even if there’s just two people at that session, it was like they actually you can tell we got something out of it. There was something cathartic out of it. Thank you again for having me. Thanks again for like giving me the platform also for the book as well like. For giving me that platform.

D: Your poetry is amazing and I want to. There’s this quote in one of the messaging things that you put in your book. “Love should not be considered something to send and perceive. Is it not more of a state for oneself?” and this question, it was a stated as a question. This question I think is really just something that I see you embodying in not only sort of who you are and how you express, but your affect. Just kind of understanding that to love others is really about self upliftment, because when we allow ourselves to love others then we, I mean whether or not they perceive us loving them, or feel us loving them, or even believe that we love them. It’s really doing more for us to kind of transform us on the inside, so that is something that really stuck with me as well.

M: Thank you so much. That’s beautiful. Yeah. I like sometimes touch strangers, you know, at the club, a long night, and I’m like, I love you. And then it goes to this. I’ve had this happen a couple of times. They’re like, you don’t know me, how can you love me? And I’m like, but I do love you. You’re going to tell me I don’t love you? And then it goes into this whole debate like, yeah. OK. OK. They’re like obviously like, I don’t love you like I love my mama. But. Love is I can you can, you can have love for anyone. You could even have love for the bigots, you don’t have to respect them, you don’t have to, but you can have love. Love is a state of being. It’s more than idea. It’s an existence. And you know, yeah, like you said, that’s a reflection of how you orient yourself in this world and what you want to be reflected back at you. You know, if you can love like your haters, then or the bigots, or the people who, you know, try and step on you. I don’t know. Like then. The love you have, the capacity for it is infinite, essentially. You know what I mean? And thank you so much. Appreciate that.

D: What is your queer truth? Final question.

M: What is my queer truth? What is queerness now? My queer truth. My queer truth. You know, I know it sounds. I don’t want it to sound reductive, but my queer truth is love. Like it all comes from a place of love at the end of day. And that’s what, like for me, queer culture, queer identity. The queer like social, psychological, whatever it is, profile of queerness, for me, it’s coming from a place of love, like love, love for yourself, love for others, love for whoever, whatever, your lifestyles, whatever your journey, whatever your progress is, it’s like we’re all the same shit. We’re all coming from the same shit. Like we all get there differently, we all look a little differently, but at the end of day, there’s always foundational, and root, central things that bind us all together. Which is love at the end of the day. So for me that is queer. That that to me is my queer truth. I orient myself in this world with love. In a matter you know. And I think that why I relate that to queerness, because I think my queerness, my journey of queerness, has shed a lot of light on that because of the suffering that I went through. Because of the suppressions, because of the doubts and self-loathing and a bunch of other things that a lot of people, queer people go through. Like you have to really like you, you should. One should flip the script right and realise that that’s all bullshit. And you know love is the, is the stabilising force instead. Is the motivating force of all that. So like for truth is love, love, love, love.

D: Awesome. Thank you so much for coming. I really, really love talking to you. I could talk to you forever.

Episode Transcript:

D: Hi.

DD: Hi. So good to be here. Oh my God. Yeah.

D: What is your name?

DD: My name is Diana Diamond. I’m a drag performer. When I’m not in drag, I go by Magnus. That’s a Danish name. You would probably say Magnus. Yeah. That’s me.

D: Awesome. So you do drag mostly in Copenhagen?

DD: I do drag in Copenhagen. Yeah, I am from Copenhagen. I do also tour around Denmark sometimes, and then I am fortunate. Fortunately, what is it called I get, I get to go here to Vienna.

D: Yeah, so now we’re currently in Vienna, but I just learned something new. It’s not Copenhagen, it’s Copenhagen.

DD: It’s Copenhagen. Yeah, I feel like we will say that. I think people are calling it Copenhagen because they think it sounds Danish, but we call it Copenhagen. So that’s like nothing to do with it. Yeah, but you could say whatever.

D: So how did you get into doing drag?

DD: I’ve always been really fascinated about the drag world. I remember seeing a drag performer for the first time when I was around four years old on television. It was a huge Danish drag queen that did some Anastasia impersonation and from that that time I was hooked. Whenever there has been something drag I’ve been like very interested because it’s just like extravagant and glitter and hair and stilettos and everything. Love it.

D: I’m currently wearing one of your dresses, first of all I have to say. It is pink. It is poofy, it is absolutely fabulous. And, so your drag style. Can you describe that for us?

DD: It’s really just what you said, pink and poofy and fabulous. I’m, like, inspired by those, really by Barbie. And I want to look like a real-life Barbie doll most of the time. Paris Hilton is inspiration, Glinda the Good Witch, Karen from Mean Girls. It’s like kind of that blonde bombshell stupid vibe I give. Yeah, and I love pink.

D: I remember when you first came to Vienna, how long ago was that?

DD: It was, I feel like August 2020. So, it’s just when we had a little break from Miss COVIDina Ninetina. So it’s like 2 and 1/2 years ago, yeah.

D: And you were very different performer. Can you explain like your evolution in that time?

DD: I was a baby queen back then. I’d only been doing drag for kind of a year and then the pandemic hit, so that was not a lot of opportunities for me in Copenhagen to perform really. But I think I just evolved into a more confident performer. I found my shtick if you can say that like, I really like a comedic performance with some – a lot of comedy elements, but still being very beautiful and dumb, and really just stick to that. When I do my mixes at home, I’m like always laughing and I feel like if I find things funny other people would find it funny too, I guess.

D: You did Drag Bingo last night, and something that really struck me was how good you are on your feet, just like improvising, talking to the crowd, bringing them in. How are you honing that skill? Is that like something you practise? You just kind of like have a shtick that you then like roll out? Or are you thinking that stuff up as you go?

DD: I actually I do a lot of improvisation. Is it called that? Yeah. Improvisation. Yeah. Every time I do shows back in Copenhagen as well. I’m fortunately, unfortunate. That’s a word I can’t say.

D: Fortunate?

DD: Yeah.

D: But you can be fortunate, but you just can’t say fortunate.

DD: I’m sorry. I am lucky enough to host a lot of shows back in Copenhagen and drag has kind of exploded back then. I also started a lot of shows myself, so by going out and forcing myself to be on the stage and talking on the microphone, I feel like I kind of learned from that a lot. So, I can pull those skills in wherever I go and I figured out I’m really good at adapting to the audience that I’m performing in front of. And my biggest goal is to make them feel comfortable too, and laugh. So I’m literally just having the time of my life when I’m on the stage and by doing that, I feel like people that I’m entertaining are having the time of their life.

D: I know I did. Yeah. Had a great time. Tell us about the scene in Copenhagen. Copenhagen. Sorry.

DD: No worries it is evolving. It has been very traditional up until I would say around 2018 with the Pageant Queens, but something changed. There was a whole new generation of drag performers being born around that time. Me, myself, I was like late 2019 and then I feel like drag has, it has not become mainstream, but kind of. You can’t really go anywhere in Copenhagen without seeing a drag performer. Drag is everywhere and people are hungry for it, and we are hungry to go out and perform and we just inspire each other. And so it’s a really evolving. It’s a really high quality of drag I would say, and it’s a lot of improv shows, it’s a lot of comedy, it’s a lot of still pageant and songs with like big positive energy and meaning behind them. So, it’s like there’s a lot of different styles of drag and everybody can kind of work together and we just encourage each other to thrive. Yeah.

D: Can you explain what a Pageant Queen is?

DD: My definition of a pageant queen would be like a more traditional Drag Queen that has those really long gowns and is painted for the gods, has beautiful hair and just does a ballet or just being the moment on stage you don’t really need much, but her expressions and her look. That to me is a Pageant Queen. We have some beautiful ones. Go and look up Sasha Holiday. She’s amazing. Yeah.

D: Sasha Holiday. So your shtick you kind of alluded to it, but. Could you sort of describe – I mean I have my interpretation of what you’re doing, but I’d love to hear you describe what you try to bring to the stage.

DD: I try to bring humour to the stage that is like basically, yeah. Not all the time but I like to do popular pop songs, pretty much, and like twist them into some sort of, have sort of a comedic element in every song. Yesterday I did S&M by Rihanna, but what she wanted was corn, not necessarily she wanted the sex. But then I do like, twist it to make the whole performance about corn, which for me is really stupid, but when you like, when you commit and you stick with that, it’s going to be really entertaining as well. So that is pretty much what I do. I find something stupid and just to make it into a performance basically.

D: Did you do comedy as well? Because I kind of get a sense that that’s there, that like you’re a comedian.

DD: I do stand-up comedy as well. Yeah, I do. It’s the nearest thing I throw myself into. Yeah, but we have had some shows at the biggest comedy club in Copenhagen. Every other month on a Monday, we started last summer, and I just did one this Monday, actually, and I wrote down like 2 1/2 pages of comedic material that I did like for stand up. And then I finished it off with a comedic performance. So that was basically me on the microphone for like 10-15 minutes just doing stand-up in drag and I loved it. It was really fun, yeah.

D: What do you want people to go away from your shows with.

DD: Just a happy feeling. My intention is that they leave out their problems in normal life. They leave them outside of the room, they go in, they forget about whatever they’re dealing with and they just be in the moment and have fun and laugh and take that energy with them when they leave. Hopefully to stick with that energy because they, to me, that is what drags gives me is like positivity, cool vibes, happiness. And I want to bring that to the people that I’m performing in front of.

D: So we’re in a very particular moment in the political landscape regarding drag. And something happened in Denmark not too long ago. Can you explain what happened?

DD: Yeah, I had a children’s show, a children’s drag show at a public library a few weeks ago. A couple of weeks before we were having this show, people started noticing that the shows were happening and some right wing people, I don’t know who they are, they didn’t feel like we should do these shows because they had all sorts of opinions and thoughts about what these children’s drag shows would include, which means that they posted a lot of things online, a lot of hatred online towards me calling me a paedophile. They were accusing me of grooming children. They were trying to start rumours that I was going to strip for these children. And they really went to basically Facebook and Twitter and posted a lot of hatred and hate speech about me and some – it ended with people sending me death threats. And when I received those death threats, I was like, I didn’t want to. I just couldn’t be quiet about it, so I went to the media, the Danish media with these things that I received. And luckily they took it very seriously. So they cleared out a whole segment that evening for me to come on national television to talk about what I have received, what I was being accused of. Which led to this being kind of – you could say it was a shitstorm because I’ve received a lot of negativity towards the show. The Public Library you have received lots of accusations as well and hateful messages. But then it started sort of a debate throughout the whole country of Denmark, if children’s drag show should be OK. Which means that this included politicians that were both against and for these shows – it was an entire media debate, and I was in every Danish media. A lot of people from both left and right wing, the politicians they were involved in this. There were some mayors involved. And I don’t know if the Prime Minister herself got involved, but it was at that level. But luckily for us, we had a lot, a lot, lots of support. I received so many beautiful messages from people encouraging me to do stuff like this and telling me that this was so important for them and for their children that also like to dress up as princesses. Because what I was going to do for these children shows, it was basically me as a Drag Princess performing Disney songs and blowing bubbles and glitter for the night and having children play with some glitter and stuff, which ended up really, really cute because the show itself and the event itself went really, really well. It was such a success, but it led to, there was a demonstration outside of the library against us, where people were, it was like, really right-wing people that were there. They were thinking that these children were going to change gender, change their gender, when they see these shows. And they really just have no clue what a drag show for children is, but at the same time, there was also a counter demonstration with a lot of people from the LGBT community and just people that supported us gathered and created a really good vibe in front of this library. Also, the children could feel very secure to go in and they were like they were 500-600 people. And the protest against us, they were like 20 people maybe. So we really felt the love and support from so many people. But this has never happened in Denmark before, there has never been anything. Or maybe, yeah, maybe like if we go back to the 1950s or something like that, but modern-day Denmark doesn’t have – the LGBTQ Plus community does not have this hatred thrown against them in Denmark. So it was really an event that actually gathered our whole community, because they were all supporting us also. Because this is, the protesters they were saying that this is just the drag show that their agenda was against, like they were feeling that this drag show was the big problem, but honestly, the bigger problem is that these are a bunch of transphobic people that are, that are just really trying to take trans peoples, trans persons rights away from them.

D: Yeah. And I think that also Drag Queens are a low hanging fruit because they are so publicly and extravagantly gender non-conforming. Has that ever kind of entered people’s speculation around your identity? Like OK, so now you want to be a girl or something like that. Is that something that you’ve had to deal with?

DD: Not necessarily. Just from, I think from people that haven’t had a chance to witness what drag is as an art form. They could be like oh, but like speculating if this is some kind of, my own identity or if I want to, what is it called – transition. But most of the time people get it really quickly that this is an art form. But those right wing protesters, they have no clue of what is going on – and  I don’t know if this really breaks down their whole idea of what the world is or if it’s like something fundamental for them.

D: So the but the paradox is, is that you know the on the one hand, they argue that, you know, gender is this, like, natural thing that you’re born with and it’s fixed. And on the other hand, they think that if you see like a man in a dress, it’s going to change for you. Like what can you do? Yeah.

DD: Exactly, exactly. And the thing is, 95% of the Danish population find this particular situation so stupid because it really is stupid that there are some people that are accusing us of horrible things and sending us hate messages and stuff like that. But I figured out during this time where I had to deal with all of this, that these people – you can’t say or do anything to make them change their mind.

D: I think it’s so interesting as well that your first impulse was to fight and to speak out about it instead of running and hiding. Where do you think that comes from?

DD: I think it’s coming from knowing a lot of people that are sad enough, getting these hate messages on a daily basis, mostly transgender people. And I know that when you receive this, you really don’t have the energy to take it out publicly as I do. But for me, that I don’t receive all of these things – I was like, this is a fight that I psychically also could carry so I really wanted to do that to help these people. Does that make sense?

D: It makes a lot of sense.

DD: But I at the same time I had no idea when I started, or when I first contacted the media, that this situation would blow up as a national shitstorm. I thought, OK, now I spoke my part or I’ve talked about what I’ve received and stuff like that. And maybe it would just fade away, but it didn’t. It was literally the most talked about cultural thing that happened in Denmark, like for years now. Yeah. So like my tiny little drag show at a library was like the most discussed event in Denmark.

D: OK. But the important question is who is your favourite Disney Princess?

DD: Oh my God! I’ve always seen myself as the Sleeping Beauty. What’s her name? Aurora. Because of her pink dress. I love The Little Mermaid as well. Yeah.

D: Aurora’s her name? We have confirmation, yeah. Oh, that’s awesome. I bet that was such a show and so magical. For the children as well.

DD: It was amazing. I wore like, you’re sitting in a pink dress right now. Imagine this, times 20. Yeah, it was huge. I could fit like 5 people underneath the skirt of it. It’s like I’m gonna show you a picture afterwards. But it’s amazing. Yeah, yeah.

D: So where do you wanna go from here? I mean, now you’ve been on national news. And so in that regard, you might be at this moment, the most recognisable queen from Copenhagen? So where do you, where do you want to go from here?

DD: I hope that there are great things happening for me in the near future. I am actually planning on doing a national tour in Denmark with these kids shows because I know that a lot of people from around the country have texted me and told me that they would love if I got to their city, so that’s a first. And then I actually want to do more television, but not in this way. But like ask myself, I would love to host a TV show in Denmark, because I see drag going there – as  being like mainstream hostesses of national TV shows. And honestly, just keep thriving and keep on doing what I do. I have a lot of shows in Copenhagen, I love. It I love every opportunity I get and I just wanna go out and perform honestly.

D: Awesome! I would be remiss if I didn’t ask you if you could talk a little bit about Queens Brunch and kind of where that sat in your drag evolution.

DD: I mean, it was really my first big opportunity, I would say when Stephane texted us telling us that he was going to fly us into Vienna from Copenhagen, that was the first time I really felt like, oh my god, I’m kind of a star now. I’m being flewn into another country.

D: You were flewn out, your flewn out is the correct term of it, yeah.

DD: Flewn out. OK. Oh my god, what did I say? What does that mean?

D: You got flewed out.

DD: I got flewed out! I guess that let’s just keep it there. And yeah, it was fun. And it was like also the hardest. First time I felt like, OK, drag is an actual job because I had like 2 brunches in a row, I was in drag for like 5 or 6 hours and we were entertaining a lot of people. And it was just, it was just really fun. And that was at the start, at the beginning of my career I was here. I’d only been doing drag for like 9 months back then.

D: I know you were a baby.

DD: I was a baby back then.

D: Just out of high school, you were.

DD: Yeah. No, but true. Yeah, I was. Yeah, and yeah, it was a really, really amazing experience. And now I’m back for the third time and it’s it gets better every time I must say. But it’s amazing that we have this place here where you just give opportunities to so many performers from around Europe, around the world even.

D: Tell us how we can find you online and figure out where to, you know, come see one of these shows in Copenhagen.

DD: If you’re, if you go to Copenhagen, you’re definitely gonna see a show with me because I literally have shows every week. You can find me on Instagram – my  name is @theDianaDiamond. Diana Diamond was taken, unfortunately, but it’s the same on TikTok, @theDianaDiamond and I feel like Facebook you can just put Diana Diamond, but I’m mostly active on Instagram.

D: Mostly on Instagram. Thank you so much.

DD: Thank you for having me.