Transcript

Hey there, I’m Tricia Rose Burt, and in this podcast, we talk to artists who show us how to find the courage to take risks, step out of our comfort zones, and use our creativity to make our work and change our world. Pay close attention, because this is no time to be timid.

Hey there and welcome to this special edition of No Time to Be Timid. We haven’t talked in a while and a lot of things have happened since then and none of it seems to be very good. So it’s up to us to put as much beauty and joy and creativity in the world as we can. I don’t know about you, but to do that, I need as many bravery boosts as I can get to make sure I don’t “run out of brave” as our guest Barry Dean said in last season’s episode eight.

I had to screw up my courage at the end of August because I was invited to speak at the Amos Fortune Forum here in New Hampshire. It’s a speaker series in its 80th year that has featured a host of prominent folks, and I was just really honored to be included. Now, the stage is one of my favorite places to be, but I’ll admit, I was nervous. I hadn’t been on a stage in four years. Plus, that same day, they were tearing down my late mother’s house, which was the right thing to do, but still, the end of an era and it was a tricky day for me. Then I remembered somebody said, this is no time to be timid. And if I’m going to talk the talk, I had best walk the walk. So in this episode, we’ll be listening to my presentation. I refer to some visuals in the talk and I’ll try to pop those on my website so you can see what I’m referring to. Hopefully my words will give you a bravery boost, too. And I’d love your feedback. You can reach out to me at podcast@triciaroseburt.com.

In the meantime, thanks so much for joining us. And remember, this is no time to be timid.

(Presentation Begins)

I am indeed Tricia Rose Burt and I’m excited to be with you this evening and I’m honored to be a part of this great Amos Fortune Forum tradition. And before I get started, I mean, how about these flowers? Honest to goodness. I mean, you know, it’s talking about me going from corporate to an artist. She even has a pair of pumps in the – I mean, it’s really wonderful. So I shout out to Bonnie for such a great floral arrangement.

So we’re gonna talk about courage and creativity in my podcast, No Time to Be Timid. And we’re actually recording this evening so we can use it as a special bonus episode of the podcast. Now, if you’re a listener, you know that at the start of each of my episodes, I ask my guests to say, “hi, I’m Vince Gill and I’m a songwriter and this is No Time to Be Timid” or “hi, I’m Laura Wilson, photographer and member of the Cowgirl Hall of Fame, and this is no time to be timid.” And so tonight, I’m gonna say, I’m Tricia Rose Burt. I’m speaking at the Amos Fortune Forum in Jaffery, New Hampshire, and my audience wants you to know, and then at that point, you’re going to say, this is no time to be timid. Okay? Okay, I promise that this is the only audience participation we’ll have all night long.

So we’re gonna try it, see if we can get it done the first time. Okay, let’s see, here we go. Hey there, I’m Tricia Rose Burt. I’m speaking at the Amos Fortune Forum in Jaffery, New Hampshire. And my audience wants you to know that. This is no time to be timid. Oh my gosh, Adam Arnone, my producer’s in the crowd, did we get it? Do we need to do it again, are we good? 

Adam:

They nailed it.

Tricia

We are so good. This is amazing. All right.

Okay, so it’s 1989 and I’m about 29 years old and I’m working for one of New York’s top PR firms as a senior account executive. I’m in my office at Rockefeller Center. I’m wearing pearls and sensible pumps and I have a small window that overlooks Midtown Manhattan that makes me feel kind of important. And I’m on the phone with the director of marketing of Z100, which is the largest radio station in New York at the time.

And I’m prattling on about this promotional idea for one of my clients. And the marketing director stops me and says, Tricia, I’m not remotely interested in this promotion, but you have an amazing voice for radio. If you come down to the station, I’ll do a demo reel for you for free. You need to be on the radio. And I said, no, thank you. I said, no, thank you to a powerful radio executive, who believed in my abilities enough just by hearing my voice and without even knowing me, offered to do a demo reel for me for free. It’s been about 35 years and I promise you not a year goes by that I still don’t wonder what would have happened if I’d had the courage to say yes to that offer. 

But I wasn’t raised to be courageous, at least by doing something new. I was raised to conform because the goal was security and stability. And I would find, I was told that I would find that security and stability by conforming to my family and society’s codes of behavior. There was this unspoken declaration of conformity that I was expected to follow. And here’s what it looked like.

There’s a lot to take in. You don’t have to read all of this, but some of the highlights are, and you might actually respond to some of those boxes that are up there, some of the highlights are I should be in business, I should obey the rules, and I should not draw attention to myself, which obviously didn’t pan out. But another way to say that was I was not supposed to take up space. 

So I think you’re getting the gist of this whole chart, but so let’s just go straight to the bottom, which is if I said yes to conformity, this is what I truly believed, that if I said yes to conformity, I could count on approval, community, possibly even salvation. And if I said no, if I didn’t conform, I was convinced that I would face rejection, abandonment, and a lonely wretched death. The stakes seemed high, too high to risk on the possibility of a radio career. I didn’t have the courage or the imagination to do anything different than what was laid out in front of me. And I wasn’t surrounded by risk takers, lovely people, but not risk takers. Most of the people I knew wanted to fit in and they were encouraging me to do the same. Plus, radio seemed like fun and fun never seemed like an option. Nowhere on this declaration of conformity is the word

fun mentioned. Lucky for me, somebody invented podcasting and now I’m getting a second chance.

Now, you may think with 4 million podcasts in the world, why do we need another one? Well, there are nearly 160 million books in the world and I for one get excited whenever another one’s on offer. There’s no way to know how many songs there are, but people take a stab at 300 million. Some say there are billions of songs and who doesn’t want more music? And there are approximately half a million movies to view, and that doesn’t include short films. Podcasting is just another medium that people are using to express themselves, get ideas across, move people, tell stories. And as some of you know, I’m a storyteller at heart. 

But podcasting is first and foremost about the listener. What a podcaster does is create audio experiences that accompany listeners through their life. And what makes podcasts unique is the intimacy. The podcast medium fosters an even more intimate connection than radio, which at one point was thought of as the ultimate intimate medium. It’s the one, that one-on-one connection with the host and the DJ and the listener. There’s a man named Eric Nuzum. He’s a podcasting pioneer and he wrote a book called Make Noise. And he says there’s two reasons for the intimacy of podcasts.

First of all, almost all podcasts are consumed through headphones and earbuds. You’re literally sticking earbuds in your ears. And it’s a very physical and really emotionally intimate experience. And secondly, when someone listens to a podcast, it’s purposeful. They don’t just want to hear a random country music station like they could on a radio and then when they get tired, change the channel for classic rock.

There’s an active listening. They’re intentional with what they select. And they’re looking for a really specific experience. And listeners want to hear a small part of themselves being nurtured and nourished by what podcasters do. As Nuzum goes on to say, a great podcast lingers and resonates far after you finish listening. It has altered you in some way.

Now I’ve only been creating this podcast for the past three years. We’ve just completed season four, but it’s clear that my podcast has been in the works well before podcasts were even invented. And when I look back, I can see these moments in my life were leading to my producing an audio experience around creativity and courage, starting with when I said no to the demo reel offer.

For about 10 more years, I stuck with a public relations and communications career, billing my time in 15 minute increments, working for clients like retail banking, traffic reporting, hazardous waste recycling, nothing that really blew my skirt up, until eventually I snapped. And what snapping looked like for me is I left a lucrative full-time job, started consulting, and I went to art school part-time. And after three years in art school, I realized that I wanted to dedicate myself to my artwork. And I also realized that if I do this communication job for one more minute, I’m gonna die. Slowly, but I’m gonna die. And the problem was I had created a life for myself in Boston that required a high paying consulting gig that I didn’t want anymore. I was getting these internal marching orders that I needed to uproot myself and put myself in a completely new environment. So my plan was to suspend my consulting practice and move to the west of Ireland where I’d recently taken a three-week watercolor class. I thought I’d need about six months to start making this transition from consultant to full-time artist. And my friends hear my plans and they start voicing their fears for me pretty loudly. They say, the fear is, and the fear iss and what we’re afraid of. And I kind of start to waver a bit.

But a priest at my church tells me, you know, Tricia, everyone will tell you the cost of going, but no one will tell you the cost of staying. After that conversation, I was out of there. And one week I quit my job, sell my car, get rid of my apartment, divorce my husband – this was not a whim, we’d been separated for more than two years. I cash out my retirement account and I moved to Ireland. And I am the happiest I have ever been in my life. I’m writing, I’m painting, I start dating a man seven years younger than me with a ponytail. You may know him as my bird watching, hawk tracking husband, Eric Masterson. And if you want to know more about him, listen to season three, the special bonus episode.

And when I leave my corporate career to become an artist, I know I’m onto something because my soul isn’t being crushed anymore. Instead of six months, I stay in Ireland for four years. I keep making art and writing. I marry Eric. And eventually we decide to move to the United States and we end up in New Hampshire. And I spend more than a decade as a visual artist and I’m most often creating works on paper or of paper.

And then the market crashes. And no one buys visual work. And no one hires consultants either, which at that point I’d forgotten how to do anyway. And I thought, I know, I’ll go into performance because that’s so lucrative. It made no sense and I was terrified. But ever since I went to Ireland, those internal marching orders were kicking in again and I felt compelled to write this one woman show, which had nagged at me for more than a decade, right after I did a small performance at art school. And so for about five years, I practiced monologues in secret to the dashboard in my car. I write vignettes out in longhand in a journal that I hid. The only person that I talked to about this is Eric. And then one day, we’re walking the dog and I’m going on about this imagined show. And Eric stops me and says, Tricia, stop talking about the show and do it. You’ve got to do the show.

So as it turns out, I had a solo exhibition of my visual work coming up at the former Redmond Bennett Gallery in Dublin. I don’t know if you remember that gallery. It was a beautiful space and I was expected to give an artist talk, you know, like, I use graphite on Stonehenge paper, something like that. But instead, I asked the gallery owners, Laura and Bonnie, if I could do a performance piece, which of course was not yet written and I had absolutely no idea how to do.

And they took a chance and they said yes. So I had a date, had a venue, and, fingers crossed, an audience. Now I just needed to write the show, which again, I had no idea how to do. But I had help from Kathy Manfrey and Nancy Knowles and Christine Destrempres and Dan Hurlin, who’s been on this stage at least twice and appears on season one, episode seven. Listen to that podcast. This community of artists all came together to help me develop and deliver this piece that, which after many revisions, eventually went on to win an award at New York’s International Fringe Festival.

Now some of you may have seen the show. It was originally called I Will Be Good and then was renamed How to Draw a Nekkid Man where I talk about how I left my corporate marketing career to become an artist. And the risk of doing that one woman show pays off because it lands me on The Moth stage.

Now, if you’re not familiar with The Moth, it’s an organization dedicated to the art and craft of storytelling. My neighbors, the amazing authors, Sy Montgomery and Howard Mansfield, season three, episode eight, introduced me to it. They said it’d be fun and maybe I could get some exposure for the show. So back in December 2010, Eric and I drive down to New York the day after Christmas, right before a blizzard hits, so I can attend a StorySlam at The Bitter End in The Village. I put my name in the hat, my name is called, I get up on stage and tell a story in front of 300 people I’d never seen before in my life about going to art school and drawing from a nude model for the first time. It ranks as one of the biggest thrills in my life. I didn’t win the slam, but I fell in love with storytelling. And The Moth loves the story and asks me to come down to New York and tell a longer version of their story on the MainStage.

So five months later, I hop in my Suzuki wagon, I drive down I-91 from New Hampshire to New York, convinced that I’m going to tell the best story ever. It was this train wreck of arrogance and naivete. I walk into the rehearsal spaces at The Moth offices. It’s this small room separated by this huge, thick curtain. It was purple. It was like 15 feet high. And I meet my fellow storytellers. There’s four of them.

And one of them is an international scientist who tells a story about studying the jumping spider in Sri Lanka during a coup while corpses are floating down the river. There’s the recovering addict who’d been in a shipwreck and had to drink his own urine to survive. The other two stories are just as extreme about racial injustice and family dysfunction.

And I went to art school. And I am mortified. 

And after rehearsal, I go straight to the artistic director’s office, the fabulous Catherine Burns, season one, episode three, and say, you have made a horrible mistake. I have no business being on this stage. All I did was go to art school. And she says, Tricia, first of all, do you think we would put you on that stage if you weren’t ready? And secondly,

Not all stories are extreme, but they need to be told.

That’s some of the best direction and encouragement I have ever received. And I pass it on to you. I have based my career on telling small moment stories and helping other people tell theirs. Screw up your courage, tell your story, no matter how insignificant you think it is.

So The Moth airs the story on their podcast and nearly a quarter of a million people download the episode. Now I think I’m a pretty good storyteller, but what people were resonating with was what that story was about, stepping into our creative selves. People start writing to me asking me how they could leave their jobs that were crushing their souls or maybe just how to take a painting class. I actually had a young woman call me who was in her fourth year of a five-year PhD, MD program who wanted to leave university and be an oil painter in Santa Fe.

And I could relate. I was raised to follow that safe and predictable path, but that path made me miserable. And I kept looking for other ways to lead my life, a blueprint for how to do things differently. And all these other people wanted the same thing. And that’s when the idea for my podcast began to germinate, even though I didn’t know it was going to be a podcast at the time. I thought it was going to be a memoir. So telling stories with The Moth was like learning at the feet of the masters.

And I learned the three key elements of storytelling, which you may know. Theme, stakes, and narrative arc. I run every podcast episode, every season, and even my life by these elements. The theme of this story is from conformity to courage. And if I’m doing this correctly, every detail I’m including in the story underscores that theme. I’m using it as my editing tool. It helps me decide what to put in and what to leave out, constantly moving the story and that theme forward with every episode and every season and every choice I make in my life. And I’m asking myself, am I moving the story forward?

And stakes of course is key. If there are no stakes, there’s no story. What can be won? What can be lost? And what’s at stake for me and maybe for my listeners and maybe for some of you in the audience is my soul. And whether or not I will regret the work I might have done instead of stepping out of my comfort zone and feeling the joy that comes from doing it and making the impact that I can have on the world around me. Art school taught me that the Declaration of Conformity is backwards, that my approval and my community and yes, my salvation comes by taking creative risks, not following a predictable path. That the riskiest thing that I can do, perhaps any of us can do is play it safe. Because by playing it safe, we reject our dreams, abandon adventures, and tempt dying that lonely wretched death. So those are high stakes.

A narrative arc, you know who I was at the beginning of the story, and in a little bit you’ll know who I am at the end, but I can guarantee you I am a constant work in progress. 

But even with my success with The Moth and the popularity of How to Draw a Nekkid Man, I still struggle on stage because if you recall that Declaration of Conformity, I was raised never to draw attention to myself. And throughout my life, I’ve been told that my big personality was not an asset. It was a liability. I’m not supposed to take up space. And so I’m conflicted. Performing completely energizes me and audiences respond well, but every time before I go on stage and even afterwards, those old tapes were playing in my head that a lady doesn’t draw attention to herself. And I sit in the green room and I beat myself up for not hiding this big personality. And I think somehow this is gonna cost me. Then one day I’m backstage at The Moth’s sold out MainStage show in Somerville and one of five storytellers. I’m sort of pacing back and forth wondering who I think I am to be doing this at all. And then the director approaches me and she says, “hey, Tricia, we need you to open the show. I realize that’s a tough spot, but you have that big personality and we know you can fill up the space.” Her encouragement felt like an anointing, like I was seen for the first time. My story career launches at that moment and I have not looked back.

I want to tell you about our sponsor, Interabang Books, a Dallas-based independent bookstore which was named one of the country’s top five bookstores by Publishers Weekly. They have a fabulous curated online collection and it’s just as easy to shop with them as it is with Amazon. Who doesn’t want to support an independent bookstore? Please show them some love and check them out at interabangbooks.com. That’s Interabang, I-n-t-e-r-a-b-a-n-g books dot com.

So I started telling stories and teaching with The Moth, which I still do, and I do it for several years. And it leads to a sensible and lucrative gig with a marketing company out of Nashville, teaching storytelling to businesses, which I did for four years. And right before COVID hit, it’s February, 2020, and I’m in Algoma, Wisconsin, at the height of winter, at a roadside motel, not hotel – motel with an m – with that scary disinfectant smell. And I’m in Algoma to teach precision machinists how to use story in their customer messaging. I’m sitting on the side of the bed and I’m looking to see if it takes those quarters to activate the Magic Fingers massage function. That’s how old this room is. And I’m starting to feel that if I do this work for much longer, I’m going to die. And I think, okay, wait, I have been here before. 

So for several years before my Algoma moment, there were two thoughts that were running through my head. First, I felt compelled to read about Joan of Arc, though I never did read about her. And second, I’d been working on a memoir. And at one point I was thinking, should I be writing a memoir or a manifesto? I didn’t really know what a manifesto was, but I thought I should be writing one.

So I hired a creative coach to give me some direction. And he says, well, Tricia, in your wildest dreams, what do you want to do? And I thought, you know, I’m paying this guy a chunk of change, so I might as well go all in. And I said, I have this big personality, and I’m incredibly vocal about creativity and how it’s transformed my life. And my Moth story motivated a lot of people to change their lives. So it sounds crazy, but I feel like I’m supposed to lead some kind of movement. I don’t even know what that means when I say it.

And he says, well, Tricia, I think you need to go read a book by somebody who led their own movement. I think you need to read about Joan of Arc. And my jaw drops a little. And then he goes, and while you’re at it, why don’t you write a manifesto? I was like, are you kidding me? So I did what he said. And I decided to spark the No Time to be Timid movement, which you are now all part of, and pulling from all of that encouragement I received over the years, I wrote the No Time to Be Timid Manifesto, but I didn’t know what to do with it. 

I’d been kicking around the idea for a podcast for years, but I couldn’t get any traction with any kind of idea. And then in February 2022, right after I’d written the manifesto, The Moth called and said they wanted to air one of my stories on The Moth Radio Hour in three months. It was a story I told in 2014, I’d almost forgotten about it, about how when my first husband, not Eric, my first husband and I separated, I’d accidentally moved across the street from the woman he was having an affair with. That’s a true story, which was tragic at the time, but really funny now. And you know what made that funny? 15 years. 15 years. As they say in my line of work, tragedy plus time equals comedy.

At any rate, in the story, I talk about how making art helped me get through that trauma and how art saved my life, which is the theme of most of my stories. So I said, you know, that’d be great if you aired that story, but you know how you read a storyteller’s bio at the end? And they said, yeah. I said, Would you mind saying that Tricia Rose Burt is the host of the popular new podcast, No Time to Be Timid? And they said, sure.

Now to be clear, I didn’t own a microphone. I hadn’t even taken a class. I didn’t have the first idea how to produce a podcast. But I was not going to miss that opportunity of more than two million people hearing about my podcast on The Moth Radio Hour, even if it wasn’t made yet.

So like the first time I performed my performance piece, I had a goal and a deadline that there was no way out of. That bio was going on air. Now I just needed to create the show in three months. I took a class. I bought a book. I tried to get as smart as I could by diving into this medium I knew nothing about. And they asked important questions like, who are you? What’s the expertise or passion that you’re bringing to this show? Who is your listener? What do you have to say? And what effect do you want to have on them after they’ve listened to your show? 

And I knew that the story I told more than a decade ago on The Moth stage about finding the courage to step into a creative life wasn’t just my story, it was my mission. And I wanted to help aspiring and practicing artists and writers and entrepreneurs find the courage to make their creative work, to offer the encouragement that I received from my priest and my husband and fellow artists and several directors along the way at just the right time to do the work I was called to do instead of just talking about it. I wanted to give them a blueprint for what a creative life could look like. And over the years, I developed a vast network of creatives, some well-known, all major talents, who have taken significant risks. I thought I’ll showcase those artists, many of them from the Monadnock region, and I’ll give them a platform to tell their stories because as Henry Matisse says, committing to a creative life, which means saying no to practical choices and stepping into the unknown, it takes a lot of courage. And I wanted my guest courage to rub off on my listeners and me. I wanted to rub off on me.

There was another thing that they stressed, which was sustainability. How can you sustain a podcast financially? How can you sustain it from a content standpoint? But most importantly, how can you sustain it energetically? As artists and writers and entrepreneurs and leaders, we have to ask that question all the time. How can we sustain it? So I thought, I won’t launch a weekly podcast. I’ll produce one season, see if I even like making a podcast. And I thought I’ll use the manifesto as my framework. It has 10 principles, so I’ll produce 10 episodes, drop them every other week with 10 guests to exemplify each one. 

Now this is a manifesto that works for me and you’re welcome to adopt it. You may want to craft your own manifesto, but right now we’re gonna review each of the principles of mine and I want you to think of which principles resonate with you and what principles you might want to add to it. If you’re like me, you’ll like this way better than the Declaration of Conformity. 

So the first principle of the manifesto is “the riskiest thing you can do is play it safe.” It’s my own personal mantra and for good reason. My life is littered with instances where I said yes, because I thought that would make me secure and then more often than not, things exploded instead, like my first marriage or my job as a corporate communications director. But there’s also times I said no to things, good things, because they were gonna push me out of my comfort zone. Like the radio story I told you in the beginning. So if somebody offers you the chance to do something you’ve never tried before and that makes you a little nervous, say yes. You don’t know what that may lead to.

The second principle of the manifesto is “there is more than one right way in life.” I interviewed Liz and Matt Meyer-Bolton of The Salt Project in Keene. They are in the back of the audience. Hello, Liz and Matt,  season one, episode two. They’re ordained ministers, both raised by ministers, but now they’re award-winning filmmakers and podcasters. Instead of saying, we’re going to be pastors for the rest of forever because this is what we do, they transferred their skill sets to a different medium. Filmmaking started as a side hustle while they were in traditional ministry, but then it became their focus. And when I interviewed them, Matt had just finished up a podcast series on Vincent Van Gogh and the season of Lent. And as he said, it’s basically the same muscles as preaching. It’s just done in the podcast format. What continues to define their work is finding things that are unseen or not seen enough and bringing them out into the light. So it’s a similar set of gifts and talents, used in a different set of media. So think about how you might be able to expand how you use your gifts and use them in a different way.

The third principle of the manifesto is “don’t expect a linear path.” I just interviewed an author named S.C. Perot, season four, episode nine, who wrote the book, Styles of Joy. Now the pandemic helped her realize that she loved everything about being a corporate lawyer, her coworkers, her clients, except writing contracts, which is what she was hired to do. So she left her career and then she went through a difficult divorce. Afterwards, she just experienced this tidal wave of loss. She found solace in walking and while she walked, she listened to the good energy music of the pop star Harry Styles. Before she knew it, she was seeing 17 Harry Styles concerts across five countries in 10 months. SC not only transformed from a Stanford educated rule following corporate lawyer into a bedazzled boa-wearing fangirl dancing in a mosh pit with complete strangers. But she also rediscovered her joy and her creativity in the process. She’s now an author, an instructor in human and organizational development, and a thought leader in the transformational power of joy. Sometimes the straightest route is a crooked line.

The fourth principle of the manifesto is “creativity is not a frivolous pursuit.” When I worked as a corporate communication consultant, I was a consultant conveyor belt. I just kept shooting out the same solution over and over again. And that all changed when I went to art school. Right at the beginning, our instructors gave us a large thick sheet of paper and told us to work on that same piece of paper for 10 minutes every day for the next 10 weeks. They didn’t tell us what to do with that piece of paper. We had to decide for ourselves. I’d pin my sheet of paper on the wall, then I’d stare at it, panic, and start to cry. I cried a lot in art school. And my teacher sees me in distress and she says, Tricia, just ask yourself, what happens if I do this? And then make a mark and see what happens. And so I make a tiny mark, and I survive. So I made another mark, and over the course of the class, I made all kinds of marks with different mediums I’d never used before. And every day, my painting transformed into something more interesting. So now I try to ask myself, what happens if I do this? In my creative work and in my professional work, and I can tell you my clients can tell the difference. Practicing creativity opens your mind to ideas and solutions you never considered before.

And there’s another reason why creativity isn’t frivolous. It actually affects your health. My creative coach, Mark McGuinness, season one, episode four, who’s also a therapist says, “one thing I’ve discovered is I actually get physically ill if I try to neglect or avoid or put off my creativity. And I’ve seen all kinds of versions of that in my therapy practice. At a certain level, you can’t deny the creative person that you are.”

The fifth principle of the manifesto is “logic can work against you.” One of my favorite interviews was with a comedy writer named Steve Young, season two, episode eight. He was a writer for David Letterman for 25 years and he wrote the bit Dave’s Record Collection. Anybody see Dave’s Record Collection? And when he was doing that, he accidentally discovered the little known world of industrial musicals. And when he was searching for records in flea markets, and stores, he found these albums stamped not for commercial sale and found out like huge companies like Westinghouse and Hardee’s and John Deere would commission Broadway style musicals, sometimes with budgets of millions about their product lines that would be performed only one time at national sales conventions. And they were recorded on these albums. Steve amassed this huge record collection, which led him to write a book and then be the subject of the award-winning documentary, Bathtubs Over Broadway. In the film, Steve says, life can be so rich and wonderful when we step off the logical path and embark on eccentric adventures. And if you haven’t seen his documentary, I urge you to do so. 

The sixth principle of the manifesto is “practicality is overrated.” My dear friend, Rachel Perry, season one, episode six, decided to go to art school at 36 while she was raising a first grader. Not exactly practical. Sometimes she’d sketch with one hand and drive with the other while she was taking her son to school. She’s now a nationally known artist. She’s been a fellow at MacDowell at least four times. And last year she was part of a theatrical experience at Carnegie Hall. Sometimes it pays to put practicality aside and just go for it.

The seventh principle of the manifesto is “constraints are opportunities.” All the good artwork I ever made came from a financial constraint. When I was living in Ireland, I didn’t have any money and I didn’t have any money for oil paint. So I worked with other people’s, I can’t believe I did this, I worked with other people’s used tea bags from a coffee shop. This was way before COVID and apparently I was unconcerned about my health. A few of those pieces are now in some prestigious corporate art collections. The financial constraint pushed me to creatively problem solve. Twyla Tharp, the choreographer, tells a story, a wonderful story about how she made her worst work when she had no deadline and unlimited cash. She needed parameters of time and budget to work against. And here’s what I didn’t know about Grandma Moses. She produced over 1,000 paintings in the last three years of her life, but only after her arthritis made it impossible for her to crochet. She worked with this constraint. She couldn’t do crochet anymore, so she started painting. What we think is a limitation may be the thing that ignites our creative thinking.

The eighth principle is “failure is your friend.” When my memoir didn’t get picked up, I called my friend Amy Grant, season two, episode one. She’s a Grammy award winning musician who’s been around the block a couple of times. And she said, Tricia, in our house, a no is as good as a yes, because it just redirects you. Which completely removes the rejection component. If you say my creativity is going to end up looking like this, then the only result is it either looked like that or it didn’t. It’s a pass or fail. And so creativity requires no’s because then you go, okay, well, we won’t continue in that direction. We’ll keep going, but we’ll go in a different direction. And then it all just becomes exploration and adventure. So if you get a no, don’t be discouraged. A no can be helpful. And I find eventually a yes will come. Plus you just repurpose the material. A lot of my memoir has ended up in my podcast.

The ninth principle of the manifesto is “there is courage in community.” It helps to have fellow pilgrims on a journey. Everything is easier when you have someone to cheer you on. And this season, one of my guests was the number one hit songwriter, Barry Dean. He’s written for folks like Little Big Town and Tim McGraw. And he’s also the CEO of a company that makes smart technology for wheelchairs because his daughter’s in one. And if you only listen to one of my podcast episodes, listen to that one. It’s season four, episode eight. And in it, Barry talks about the impact one of his colleagues, Chris, had on him and on his songwriting career. Barry told Chris, “there’s a whole lot of voices in my head telling me I can’t. And the one that says I can sounds like you.”

That’s what we hope we can do with this podcast. Be the voice in your heads that say you can. 

Now the 10th principle of the manifesto is “make a mark now.” Just like my art instructor told me, make a mark and see what happens. Creativity matters no matter when you start. I went to art school in my mid-30s, got on stage when I was 50, and I started a podcast at 62. I have no idea what’s gonna happen when I turn 70, but it’s probably already in the works. And I’m in good company. Julia Child mastered the art of French cooking when she was 49. Laura Ingalls Wilder published Little House in the Big Woods, her first book in that series when she was 64. And speaking of 64, this season I featured three women on my podcast who are doing incredible things, they’re also 64. And one of them happens to be Jaffrey resident Amy Meyers, who started her business, Mrs. Meyers Etiquette, and has nearly 90,000 followers on Instagram. Yay, Amy.

Listen to the episode and check her out. A dear friend of mine who’s been working in Haiti for years, and she told me about a man named Colie Gorham who first visited Haiti in 1998 when he was 80. For the next 20 years, he and his wife empowered young Haitians through education, raising money, and endless visits, not stopping until he was 100 years old. My personal hero is Iris Apful, the fabric designer turned fashion icon in her nineties. 

So whatever your dream, it’s not too late. And to help you along, I have copies of the manifesto for everyone. My husband, Eric, and Amy Meyers, will pass them out as you exit. Post them in your home, adopt it as your own.

Last year, we completed season three and we received a Signal Award, which is a prestigious podcast industry honor, in the arts and culture category that included– get this –Oprah Winfrey. I will never tire of saying that my little production company, I Will Be Good Productions, which consists of me, who has a good sense to work with Adam Arnone, was in the same category as Oprah Winfrey. She got gold, we got silver, and we were thrilled. But I will tell you that podcasting takes an enormous amount of work. Of those four million podcasts I mentioned at the start, many are dormant, only about 32 % of them have produced 10 or more episodes and only 4 % are consistently creating content. There’s a real thing called pod fade. People start a podcast and then realize how hard it is to make a good show and they just abandon the project. On my end, it takes three or four days for each 45 minute episode. And that doesn’t include the heroic efforts of Adam who works so hard to make each episode sound flawless. And the show wouldn’t be possible without support of my executive producers, Amy Grant, Nancy Perot, and Sage Wheeler, as well as those who contribute to my factored Atlas fiscal sponsorship. And unlike a live audience for the podcast, you don’t get immediate feedback. It can be a grind. And sometimes it just feels like we’re putting stuff out into the air. Unless a listener reviews the show or sends you an email, you don’t know if you’re making an impact.

A few weeks ago, I was pretty low. I was exhausted by season four and telling my husband I wasn’t sure whether it was worth all the effort. I opened my emails and there was one waiting for me from a listener and she wrote, thank you for the impact that your podcast has had on me. Your manifesto made so much sense to me. It was a call to arms. I am a South African living in Spain with a day job in marketing and a relentless dream to write children’s books. Each episode has given me some form of creative input and encouragement. The one with Nora Fiffer changed things for me in a significant way. As someone with a full-time job and two kids, I envied her ability to work within her child-rearing constraints and not to wait for the perfect conditions. That triggered a conversation with my husband about carving out time for me. And since January this year, I’ve enjoyed four precious hours every Saturday to be completely creative. I have completed an online course by children’s book author Julia Donaldson. I have finished a new story, started a substack, started another story, plucked up the courage to read my story to 200 kids at my children’s school, wrote a cover letter for literary agents, and started to reach out to a long list of them. I finally feel like I’m wielding my talent and my passion. Anyway, thank you, Tricia, for having the audacity to draw a nekkid man all the way to doing this podcast. It’s meant and means so much to me. 

That listener became the voice in my head that says, I can. So there will be a season five. It launches next spring, maybe earlier, and the manifesto will still be central to our efforts.We’re going to keep having conversations about creativity and courage, which we all need now more than ever. And I hope you’ll tune in, listen to past episodes because they’re great. Do the work you’re called to do and remember, let’s say it all together like we did in the beginning and say it like you mean it. This is no time to be timid. Thank you very much.

No Time to Be Timid is written and produced by me, Tricia Rose Burt. Our episodes are produced and scored by Adam Arnone of Tricia Rose Burt. And our executive producers are Amy Grant, Nancy Perot, and Sage Wheeler. I’d also like to thank contributors to my Fractured Atlas Fiscal Sponsorship, which helps make this podcast happen. No Time to Be Timid is a presentation of I Will Be Good Productions.

Take Aways

• The impact of personal stories can transcend individual experiences.
• The more specific a story is the more universal it can become. 
• Believe in yourself and your work. 
• Creativity often requires sacrifice and always requires courage.

Resources

• Listen to 7 Minute Stories.
• Subscribe to Aaron’s YouTube Channel.
• Follow him on instagram @aaroncalafato.

Transcript

Aaron 

My name is Aaron Calafato. You can hear me telling seven minute extemporaneous autobiographical stories all over podcast land. And this is no time to be timid.

Tricia 

Hey there, I’m Tricia Rose Burt. And in this podcast, we talk to artists who show us how to find the courage to take risks, step out of our comfort zones, and use our creativity to make our work and change our world. Pay close attention because this is no time to be timid.

Welcome to the last show of the season. Well, I say last show, but it’s not really the last show because we’re working on two bonus episodes, but it’s the last official show and I’m so excited you’re joining us.

And hey listen, if you’ve had a favorite episode this season or in one of the first, you know, season one, two or three, we’d love to know which one it was. I received an email last week from a listener in Spain, we’re global, who told us what a difference the podcast has made in her life, which is so great to hear, and cited Nora Fiffer’s episode from season three as a real game changer for her. So which one’s spoken to you? Please email us at podcast@triciaroseburt.com and let us know what’s resonated. But before you log in, listen to this episode because it may end up being your favorite. My guest is Aaron Calafato, an award-winning storyteller, narrative designer, and content strategist for some of the world’s fastest growing companies. His podcast, Seven Minute Stories, which he produces in his basement studio in Ohio, is autobiographical and extemporaneous – the man writes nothing down – and has achieved a cult following reaching more than 30 million people worldwide. When he’s not telling seven-minute stories, he’s also the co-creator, co-producer, and co-host of Glassdoor’s The Lonely Office podcast, which has quickly become a top-50 career podcast. 

Like anyone who ends up as a storyteller, Aaron’s path is anything but linear. Shout out to the No Time to Be Timid Manifesto and the third principle, don’t expect a linear path. And Aaron is a master at adapting. If the world tells him no, he turns it into a resounding yes, usually by telling a story. Who else can turn crushing student debt into a successful one-man show performed for three years across the country? He’s resourceful, resilient, and like me, a fellow believer in the power of story. Some takeaways from our conversation: The impact of personal stories can transcend individual experiences. The more specific a story is, the more universal it can become. Believe in yourself and in your work. And creativity often requires sacrifice and always requires courage. 

There are a few things that make me happier than talking to a fellow storyteller. I’m so glad you’re joining us.

Tricia

Hey Aaron, welcome to the show. 

Aaron

Thank you, Tricia. Thank you for having me.

Tricia

I’ve been a fan for a while, but I’ve really immersed myself in your stories in the past couple of days. And I got so tickled to hear about that you made a film in high school.

Aaron 

Yeah, I was going to say you went deep into the archive there.

Tricia

I went deep. I went deep. So you made this film in high school. Did you know then that you were a storyteller? Was that your first foray into, I’m going to start doing this? And by the way, what was the film about?

Aaron

Well, let me start with what the film was about. The film was called Disclosure. And it was from the director’s point of view, when I say this, we were 18 year old kids, okay? So from the director’s point of view. It was an homage to sort of that Jerry Bruckheimer kind of like action vibe. And no, I had no idea I was a storyteller or what that was. I knew it inherently in terms of what we did is – friends and with my family and growing up in a hybrid sort of Italian American background with one part of my family on my mother’s side, they’ve been in Indiana and they’ve been farmers and working in the middle of America for as long as they can remember. And on the other side, relatively new people to this country. And that’s the Italian American, Sicilian American, folks from Naples and stuff. So I had this sort of interesting background of folks who’ve had roots here for a long time on one side. And then other folks who are trying to plant roots after coming from a place that’s important to them that is home, but where they’re seeking something better here. So no, I didn’t know. And really, I actually thought I was gonna be a rock star. I had the, listen, my dreams were, I thought I was gonna be a guitar player. I was a guitar player. I was into music. I was…

Tricia  

Did you play the guitar?

Aaron

I was playing solo.

Tricia

Yeah, you did play the guitar. Okay.

I was inspired by Rush and progressive rock bands. I had big dreams. So no, I didn’t know. I just remember a buddy of mine said, hey, I’m making this film and you know, you’re in high school. You want to impress people that you have crushes on and you want to express and you’re trying to find out who you are. And so he was like, I want you to star in this movie. By the way, again, two 18 years old.This conversation is ridiculous. So I think the audacity of it, and I’m actually considering it. I’m like, all right, well, listen, I got to check to see with a band schedule, when are we going to be playing out at the local house party. No, but a buddy asked me to do it and I was in the movie. It was a really fun experience though.

Tricia

Two things real quick. So you had a band at the time in high school. So you were in a band and you were the lead guitarist in the band? 

Aaron

Oh yeah. 

Tricia

Okay. All right. So you have a thriving musical career in high school and then you get this opportunity to star in a film. So the setup is good here. All right. Then you – So you’re starring in the film. How long is the film?

Aaron

Film’s about 35 minutes. It’s not quite a short short. Yeah, it was a pretty big, you know, it was a big cut. And back then, Tricia, I say back then, this is like 2000. There was no, you know, the editing software was just coming into the 21st century. It was just so wildly difficult to make this film. And I watched…

Tricia

Yes!

You know, I came into this kind of tongue in cheek because we were kids, but we really did want to create stuff. That was when creation started bubbling for me. But yeah, you see people making film in such a complex way. I had an insight. One, I was just sort of a performer, but I would hang out with the filmmakers, these kids, and I would see them, the dedication and the time and the patience of uploading and downloading and cutting and editing. So it was the first time I got a, I saw how the sausage was made. And so it was kind of like, oh, okay, so all these actors and musicians that I love, they’re there, they’re doing their thing, but at least in the recorded form, visually or sonically, there’s another actor at play. There’s another conductor. And that was a beautiful insight. So yeah, that’s how it at least started for me from a performance standpoint, but I had no idea I was gonna do this weird storytelling thing.

Tricia

So when did that happen? So like you and I both know, we’re both storytellers, we both know there’s not like, I went to college and majored in storytelling. Like what did you do when you went to college? Like what did you think you were gonna do when you went to school?

Aaron

When I went to college, I was going to be a music major. And the problem was that I failed my audition because I pretended to know that I read music. So I learned by ear playing the guitar. I memorized scales and I was able to play. I didn’t have perfect pitch, but I was able to sort of almost in a jazz-like way improvise.

And so I wasn’t a songwriter, but I was a lead guitarist. I could go in there and add that extra texture of solos and that sort of sonic experience. Problem was this was a jazz program and I had no idea what I’m doing. Like I was just like, you go to college. I guess I can major in music, but I didn’t have the, it’s funny looking back, I didn’t understand how systems worked. And I just sort of had almost like an eighties, nineties movie viewpoint. You just show up and you have this amazing audition and there’s someone who nods at you dramatically and things happen for you. So I went and auditioned and I got a rude awakening because the guy was like, hey, you don’t know how to read music. And I was like, how did you find out? He’s like, I can tell you memorized it. He tested me. He put a piece of music in front of me and I said, I can’t play it. He goes, you can’t be in the program. You’re out. 

Tricia

Oh wow. 

Aaron

He goes, you’re gonna play every sharp I tell you, every flat I tell you. Yeah.

Tricia  

And so how did that make you feel? Were you like, was it a crushing blow or was it, wait a second, this is gonna be a redirection for me and how I move forward.

Aaron

No, I thought my life was over. I mean, creatively it was crushing. Yeah, because and again, a little over dramatic 18 year old, 19 year old, like I think my life is over. But it really was at that time without judging the past self. I, you know, I had worked my way up and practicing and practicing and playing and you kind of construct stories. We construct stories within ourselves of our own identity and our dreams. And so in this internal story, I was a musician. I was going to find a way down that road. And when that came to a halt, or at least that was a huge obstacle, I was like, holy shit, what do I do? I have no idea what I’m doing. So I was walking around campus as an undecided major because it was one of those programs where you got accepted into the school first and then you had to audition into the conservatory. So I was accepted at the school. This is Bowling Green State University in Northwest Ohio.

And so I’m walking around campus and I have no idea what I wanna do. And I’m literally spinning in my head. I realized something in that moment actually that I hated traveling. And I actually, wasn’t just a justification for myself, it’s because of the failure or at least because of this obstacle. I realized, wait a second, if I’m a musician, see how things come to me late, Tricia? I go, wait a second, if I’m a musician, that means I’m gonna be on a tour bus for most of the time I’m traveling.

And so then I was like, wait a second, this is the greatest gift that’s ever been given to me. I don’t have to tour all over the country.

Tricia  

That’s fabulous.

Aaron

I was like, well, that solves that problem. I feel good about that. But then it’s like, okay, I can play guitar as a hobby, but what do I do next? And I literally that, I think just a couple of weeks from then I saw a poster for a play audition and it was just a two person play. And I remembered the student film I made in high school. And I was like, well, I have acted before. Maybe I give this career a second chance. So I audition. You know what, you want to know what I did though? You went for the audition and I’ll get out of your way to, cause I know you got, your questions are great.

Tricia

No, listen, no, I’m loving hearing this. Go.

Aaron

Sorry, I’m going in storyteller mode. the audition, because I didn’t have any acting training, my favorite actor was Al Pacino and still is. I’m actually listening to his recent memoir. And I grew up watching all his films. Again, same thing, my grandfather, Italian American, you gotta watch Pacino, you gotta watch De Niro, all the, you were, that was part of growing up. You sat down, I was like 10 watching The Godfather. He’s like, you see this? This is what family’s all about. And it’s a bit of a trope, but it’s also real too that sort of Italian American upbringing, you know, it’s one of these things where you’re immersed with kind of, hey, remember all the good things about our culture, all the things that are troublesome about the culture, all the elements of what Italian Americans have contributed to society. So that was a big sort of point of pride. So that’s why I got into Pacino’s work. And so for this audition, I didn’t have any acting skills. I just did my, an Al Pacino impression. Like I did a monologue. It’s the most, can you imagine casting this?

This guy walks in and they’re like, you’re reading for the part. I’m probably some like, you know, 20 year old sort of like, it was like a 20 year old trust fund kid and blah, blah, blah. And I go in and no idea, I start doing a Pacino impression. And I’m just like, what do I know? And I’m just like, who am I? It was ridiculous. And somehow though, the guy was like, Hey, this audition was really weird, but I really like your energy and I like your raw.

Something’s happening here. And he cast me in the play. 

Tricia

That’s a hoot.

Aaron

So that was kind of the spark to the whole thing. 

Tricia

What was the play?

Aaron

I can’t even remember. I literally can’t. It may have been something called The Author’s Voice. I think it may have been The Author’s Voice. It’s someone who is, it’s like a one person play or it’s a person who has multiple personalities. But I got to interact with my different personalities. 

Tricia 

That sounds fun.

Aaron 

Yeah, it was cool. And so that’s how I got into the acting thing. But again, still not the storytelling.

Tricia

So how long did you do the acting thing?

Aaron

So I did it through undergrad and just did a lot of the, it’s not Broadway, but it was just the little plays because I was never trained. So I didn’t know how to act on stage. My first experience was on a film. So actually I learned in an opposite way than a lot of theater folks. So I learned about like on film, work with your eyes, work with your thought. It’s what you don’t say necessarily. And so I kind of learned backwards so that when I was in the theater program at Bowling Green State University, I’m mumbling on stage like Marlon Brando. Because I thought that’s kind of, that’s acting. They’re like, we can’t hear you. Please, we gotta hear you in the back. So then I learned from pain of not getting any auditions and not getting roles about learning how to project and learning how to articulate on stage and kind of have that wider range of realism, but at the same time, still being presentational. So I learned those skillsets, again, by accident and default. So I did that in undergrad. And then I went out to New York because, again, growing up 20 minutes south of Cleveland, all I heard was like, you either go to New York or Los Angeles. And I just read biographies about what my favorite actors did. So I just went out there because I heard there was a place called The Actor’s Studio. And then you just show up and then you have this career.

So that’s, again, always operating based on assumption and false narratives. That’s how I ended up out there. And I started, I actually started training as an actor in New York. So that’s when that started.

Tricia

And how long were you in New York training as an actor? I mean, how long did you stay in New York? 

Aaron

It’s about six years. Six years. 

Tricia

 Then  it just like didn’t blow your skirt up and you decided to go back to the Midwest?

Aaron 

Yeah, so actually the training was amazing. I studied at a place called the Michael Howard Studio and had some wonderful teachers. Olympia Dukakis was one of them. Rest in peace. She’s a wonderful teacher.

Tricia

My yes. Yes.

Aaron

So that experience there at that conservatory in New York shaped my artistic experience. We were talking pre-show about my Basquiat shirt. That’s when I learned about Basquiat and Warhol and art. Again, I knew really nothing about that scene and it was just interesting to kind of learn. I learned about The Performance Garage and Spalding Gray. It was the first time I heard about Eric Bogosian and some of these kind of folks. I’m like, whoa, there’s these people doing this thing.

So I was there and I got some bit roles and I did some television and some stand-in work. So I was working a little bit and doing some theater, but it was, we were so crushed by student debt. We had so much debt. It was also an education, Tricia, into just the socioeconomic reality of going from a mid-market city to a city like New York. And it’s like, holy shit. That was a whole new reality. So I stayed as long as I could and had to make the decision to come back because one, I was about to get married at the time, but to be real with you, we tell stories, right? The real story was we just couldn’t do it anymore. And so what I was trying to figure out was how do I tell this story about how I’m not a failure back to the people in Ohio? Because you leave and they send you off and it’s like, what’s he doing out there? And to come back at that time, signified to me, my ego and everything, that I didn’t achieve. I wasn’t Al Pacino. I was just a person with experiences and I had some great moments of success, but nothing sustainable. But there was one thing that happened to bring me back to the Midwest, to your question. One thing that happened was a seed that really sprouted what we’re doing and what I’m doing right now. Next to my acting studio, there was a diner, little, greasy spoon diner. And the guy who owned the diner, I’d go in there every morning and get a bacon, egg, and cheese. That was my favorite – I love bacon, egg, and cheese. Bacon, egg, and cheese on a bagel or on a roll. And we got talking and he would have me talk for an hour every morning. He said, hey, if I pay you a hundred bucks, would you just talk to people, keep them laughing, keep them drinking coffee, because the line would get long at this place. There was one cook, one guy, and there’s 60 sandwiches. There’s people taking them to go. There’s people sitting down. There’s people and the coffee, you know, New York, it’s wild. And so he’s like, you just talk to them. He’s like, tell them about Northeast Ohio. Tell them about the suburbs in Cleveland and Ohio. They think it’s like a whole thing of corn. I’m like, no, we actually have an amazing, it’s incredible city here. like, yeah, talk about your life and the weird things that you did. And he had me talk. And that was the first time anyone paid me money to tell a story.

Tricia  

Okay, so this is what I, I just love how this works. We don’t realize we are being shaped and groomed for the thing we’re supposed to be doing. Right? I mean, and it just, the way the seeds were being planted for you, so it could come together as it did. So clear New York was a great experience for you, but not the place you were supposed to stay. I mean, I was in New York for three years. I’ve been in Boston for six years. They’re places you go and then you get escorted out of them because you have learned what you need to learn while you’re there. And then you just combine them all together. I think it is so fantastic that you were paid to talk to people in line. I mean, come on, that’s where you start learning your improvisational skills, your storytelling skills, how to, mean, just how to respond to an audience. It’s such fabulous experience. 

But I also know that sense of leaving and thinking I have left home and I am supposed to be a big success now. 

Aaron

That’s right.

Tricia

I’ve never gone back to Tampa, but I’m always checking in. Wait, am I successful as we all thought I was going to be when I left home? Do you know? 

Aaron

That’s real.

Tricia

So I appreciate your vulnerability in saying that. But now I know that you did a solo show around debt. And so again, it all coming together. Talk about that experience and what made you finally say, gonna get on stage and do this.

Aaron

So it’s a perfect transition here. Clearly, know, you’re here. This is great. You know what you’re doing. It’s like an it’s like a story to people, the conversations, the architecture is beautiful. It’s a beautiful thing. Come back to Cleveland, like you said, after New York and tried to figure out what am I what am I doing? How do I how do I do this thing? Because I didn’t want to give up on this thing. By the way, the thing wasn’t the money I got handed to your point. The thing was, and I think you and I’ve heard you talk with other guests on this show. This whole idea of no time to be timid, I think to me is also, you can’t be timid with the thing that carbonates you. What is the calling of the thing? And it is a calling. You don’t want it. And any creatives listening right now, you know this. You wish you didn’t have it. It’s a freaking affliction. You wake up in the middle of night, I got this thing.

And it’s against all odds, man. It’s against all odds because everything in logic tells you, you could with the creative thought process, so many folks in the field of creativity absolutely can have stable careers. They can absolutely do things, but they choose to take a path less taken because why? Because they’re wild? Well, maybe a little bit, but it’s because they feel they have something to give to add to the world. They wanna make it better than they found it. And regardless of the audience size, right? Regardless, whether it’s a stage, whether it’s a theater, or whether you’re talking globally, they want to impact and change lives at scale. They want to do that. It’s either the ocean or a drop in the ocean, but they want to do it. So that’s what drove me. So when I got back to Ohio, that didn’t go away. So it wasn’t a question of just like, okay, I’m going to stop or I’m a failure, whatever. It was never that. It was just like, okay, how do I adapt?

How do I still do this thing? you know, like Sinatra says, do it my way? All the, you know, so it’s like, how do I do it my way? And so as soon as I get back to Cleveland, I get a call from a friend of mine who was running a theater back in New York. And he goes, listen, we’re doing The Seagull by Chekhov and we need someone to do the weekday shows. We’re doing the weekends. And I know that you were doing these stories.

Aaron 

Would you want to fill that space? And I was like, yeah. And the funny thing is, Tricia, at the time, I was formulating a story about the student debt I experienced out in New York and how oppressive that was, not just because it affected my dream, like, the world’s smallest violin, but when I thought about it, I was like, well, for me, and I was in a relative position of privilege, even though I came from a working class background, how does debt as a phenomenon affect young people coming out of school?

Young employees or even just folks in the workforce who are trying to not only make a living, but give back to the economy? And then when you start seeing the numbers, I started talking with some smart people. It’s like, there was a $1 trillion student debt crisis happening then. That was only second to credit card debt in the United States of America. And so what I realized was there’s an individual story to your point, a nonpartisan story, a story about what it’s like to try to navigate a new working world with debt that no generation has seen per person in the history of America. And I was just one of millions of people. So I started telling that story and part of it came from New York and part of it was where I came from and part of it was what loans meant and kind of deconstructing what it was like to go into banks and what their interests were. And I started kind of deconstructing that experience and just telling that story as a way just to open up awareness.

So I was formulating that just out of frustration. And when my buddy calls and says, out to New York, I premiered this monologue called For Profit, kind of tongue in cheek titled about what that actually means. And it was that story. And the wild thing is when I went out to New York, I started learning what I did out there. I realized I couldn’t just show up. So two months beforehand, I’m emailing everybody in all these different places. I made up a manager and I just like – by the way, Shannon’s real. I have a real PR person now, but back then I had to make them up.

Tricia

I love that.

Aaron

Shannon’s real. I’ll introduce you to her. But you know, by any means necessary, it’s like, I got to get this out. And the funny thing is, you know, you’ve been in New York. You know, when you go to Times Square or back in the day, it might be different. They would have these paper listings of what shows you could see on Broadway. And for tourists, primarily, they kind of list, like, go see this. And they would do like one through 20, one through 10. Somehow, For Profit ended up on one of these lists. 

Tricia

Oh wow. 

Aaron

And we ended up like selling out like Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday. And then my buddy is like, what happened? Like he’s doing Chekov on the weekends, but he was happy. But we brought in a lot of people. And when I did this monologue, I was able to shape it. It wasn’t perfect, but there was someone there from the Chronicle of Higher Education who was a writer, which kind of goes out to all the universities around the country, and they wrote a piece about it. And when they wrote a piece about it, when I got back to Cleveland, so I was living in Cleveland, did the show in New York, came back to Cleveland, my inbox is full, probably about 50 emails saying, can you bring this monologue to our campus? The student organizations wanna bring you in because they’re facing this thing. And that started about three years of touring around the country and doing the monologue that you asked about.

Tricia 

So even though you don’t like to travel, you are able to travel around the country with that show. It is amazing what we will do when we have a story that we want to tell. You know what I’m saying? It’s amazing what we will put ourselves through.

Aaron

Absolutely

Tricia

If I get a chance to tell this story, I’m going to do it.

Tricia  

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Tricia  

So I have this manifesto and you’re just checking off so many of them. It’s like constraints are opportunities, right? If you have a constraint, how do you make it work for you, right? Failure is your friend. Absolutely. Like, so this didn’t work, so how am I going to pivot and turn that experience? And one of my favorite ones is creativity is not a frivolous pursuit because think of the lives that you were able to touch telling the story about crushing student debt and how many people were either validated or motivated or energized by that experience. And it’s all because you were creative and said, I need to tell the story and people need to hear it. I mean, it’s a really powerful tool, creativity. It is a powerful tool. And I’m so glad that you just sort of stepped into it.

Aaron

Well, you make a great point. And one thing I want to lay out too, on the heels of what you just said, again, in a nonpartisan way, for anyone listening, whatever the issue is that you’re passionate about, right? Whether it’s, you know, your neighborhood, your community, whatever, the one thing I learned, and I’m always learning by just falling down. Like I, now that I’m, I’m 42 now, so like now I’m starting to get perspective and going, oh, that’s like, all these things you’re talking about. I wish I had that. I wish I had that monologue happening where it’s like, don’t worry, this is good for you. I’m like, failure’s your friend. I’m just in it, just going, like I’m a muppet, right? I’m just like Kermit, as we all are. So that said, it’s one of those things where I realized that issues, numbers, facts, data, need story. And you can ask any venture capitalist this, any small business owner this, any data scientist this, because all the research, all the great things that are happening in academia, they need people to listen and they need people to fund it. And how do you get that? You got to be able to…

Tricia

Tell a story.

Aaron

Tell a damn story. And so what I realized with the student debt issue was the reason why I was able to do a tour and I had people showing up, by the way,we weren’t showing up to empty auditoriums. There was a couple of folks, friends to this day who started a petition that got over a million signatures and they formed a nonprofit called a studentdebtcrisis.org. And so they brought me on as sort of like a co-founder and we essentially used that list as an email list when I would go to these different schools. And hated traveling. I don’t fly. I barely fly now because I hate flying, but I took rental cars, drove everywhere across the United States. So it’s funny, right? I was like, oh, I don’t want to be a guitar player because I don’t want to be in a van all over the country. Here I go. Right? But I did this. And what I realized, what crystallized for this issue wasn’t the number. Right? Because you hear it all the time. You could say something like, oh, we have this terrible debt atrocity. It’s over one trillion dollars. And people go, they’ll nod and they’ll go, whoa. And it’ll have a momentary impact. 

But if you say something to the extent of like, hey, I went to school.And in order to do so, my grandmother had to take a private loan for me to do that. When I came home from break to visit her, she wasn’t at her house. Where I did find her though, was at a nursing home. Not because she needed to be in the nursing home, it’s because she came out of retirement to clean floors to pay off that debt she took from me. Now, if you position student debt like that, that compared to one trillion dollars in a graph, you know the thing that’s gonna communicate the human thing. And that’s what I realized was like issues, research, topics, whatever those kind of architectural aspect of all things society have to have great stories to communicate them. That was the lesson for me in that.

Aaron

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I’m working right now with, I mean, you know, like you, I teach storytelling to any, I’ve worked with nuns, I’m currently working with private equity folks. You know, they’re raising some money for social impact they’re doing, it’s this combination of mission and margin. And it’s, they have to be able to tell a story with that data or no one’s going to be moved. And that’s what storytelling is about, is moving people to make a decision or action or something. Entertaining is great. We love to be entertained as well. But if we can move someone in some way to think differently or to take an action they wouldn’t normally take, it’s a real gift to be able to do that. But I want to know, when did you decide I’m going to take the storytelling thing and I’m going to step into the podcast world. Because I know your first one was in May of 2018. What made you start a podcast and what made you put it in the framework of seven minute stories?

Aaron

Yeah, great question. In short, the tour I was just talking about with For Profit, the monologue, lasted for about three years. I did over 200 performances in 20 states. And I remember at the end of that, or even towards the end, because I was just like, I can’t do this anymore because of the physical toll on what that meant.

Tricia

That’s a heavy lift.

Aaron

Even if it’s like, okay, I’m making money doing what I love. What I realized was the inertia and the effort to reach all of those people to sustain that was so taxing. And if you want to know, I, in the tour, there was a guy that reached out to me. He’s – at the time he wasn’t with CNN, but he’s a CNN contributor now – Van Jones. And he heard about the For Profit monologue and he ended up being a really nice guy. And we did a couple of events together in DC and where I would do the monologue and he would do the post show and he was great. He really cared about the issue. And so we’ve remained colleagues to this day. And so when I was touring after three years, I actually texted him. I was like, hey, I kind of don’t know where to go next. I don’t know what made me text him, but I just saw his career and I thought maybe he could give me some advice. Cause I felt like I’m doing this show, but like what next? Because it  felt like it reached an end. And I had so many other stories to tell. I didn’t want to be the student debt guy in Vegas when I’m 96. I don’t want to be the student debt guy. So it wasn’t that it’s not important, but it was just a product of my storytelling. And I had all these stories. So he just said, to your point earlier, he’s like, you got to adapt and pivot. Just, he goes, things have to shift. Just change. Just stop and start something new but use the thread of what you love to start that new thing. And so that’s kind of what gave birth to the idea because podcasting was starting to emerge. It wasn’t like I was on the forefront of it. People were already doing it. It wasn’t where it’s at now, but you know, there was a precedent already set and there was a couple of other factors to answer your question of why seven minutes and all that stuff. The first thing was my first effort in a podcast was kind of an interview podcast like this. The issue was though I did that because I didn’t think anyone wanted to hear my stories. And I say that because I did about 50 episodes of an interview podcast. I did it in person. It wasn’t traveling. I wasn’t traveling. So that wasn’t too difficult, but it was still a lot of inertia and effort to go to the place, set up the mics. It was costing tons of money. It wasn’t scalable. But the lesson I learned from that was I don’t, and it was my wife, she was like, well, you just love telling stories. Why are you doing this interview show to kick off this new phase? I said, well, I just want to do the interview show so that I can sneak in my story. And she’s like, well, why don’t you just tell the stories and not do the interview? And I was like, well, then I don’t know. People want to hear from Van Jones or Tricia or Shannon Cason or some of these other. They don’t want to hear from me. This was, you know, 10 years ago. She goes, I think they do. You just did this play. And I was like, I just had this thing where for some reason I felt that I had done the stage monologue, but I wasn’t. I’ve never really said this. I wasn’t really confident it would translate to the podcast space. 

So she’s my wife, Corey was the one who was like, just do what you love. You always say that. Do the thing. You’re not really starting totally new, but I kind of was. And the other thing, Tricia, that like I made this feasible. My monologues, I don’t write anything. So I haven’t written a word in my, I mean, I’ve written a word, but I’ve never written anything for what I perform. A single word. So the value proposition I think of my stories are that they are purely extemporaneous. They are autobiographical and they’re extemporaneous. So what I do, even the For Profit monologue, by the way, that was all just, and so every night I would have a format and I kind of knew beginning, middle and end, but it became muscle memory and mind memory. And I would just perform for an hour extemporaneous, no notes, anything.

So my style of storytelling always has been just like this, I’m telling you a story. Okay, this happens, this happens. So I’ve learned early in my life without knowing it was gonna be a career to be a story catcher. I’d catch stories. Oh, I saw this thing, what does it mean? I break them down in my head beginning, middle and end. And then I just can perform them. So what happened with this is I realized, wait a second, I got all these stories. And when I would watch the tape and listen to the audio of those full hour monologues, I noticed my natural habit was to always tell stories in a approximately seven minute cadence. Little vignettes. 

Tricia

Oh how interesting.

Aaron

 It was weird. I would do like a Monday quarterback. I’d go, OK, because I would listen to the tape to get better of the full hour monologues of For Profit. And it was like I’d do the time. It was like seven minutes and twenty three seconds, seven minutes fifty nine seconds, seven minutes four seconds, eight minutes and two seconds. And I was like seven, seven, seven, seven. So I realized that I had a natural cadence – didn’t ever come up with it –  of being able to tell a short impactful story in seven minutes. So I tested it. I stopped that initial interview podcast I did. I sunset that. I took my wife’s advice. I put a timer on. I turned on the microphone and I told a story about a cruise. It was seven minutes. Then I was like, I have a show.

So that’s what became 7 Minute Stories, where every week I just record, I press a timer. I have an idea and I tell the story and that was scalable. I didn’t have to travel. I don’t have to go anywhere. And I realized even in a big sea of lots of audience and me being like nobody in that sense, I was saw we were getting, we were like, we got like a few thousand downloads. I’m like, I wouldn’t reach a thousand people in three months on the road.

And like, can reach a thousand. And by the way, here’s me again, the realization of like, whoa, everybody knew this 20 years ahead of Aaron. And I’m just like, wait a second. So you’re saying with a thing called the radio, you can reach people, but now you could do it on their smartphones. And I was like, I got this great idea. And my wife’s like, sure you do. So anyways, but it’s a complex answer, but that’s why and how.

Tricia

Well, see, that’s the thing. It’s like one of the reasons why I have a podcast is because it was February of 2020. I’d been working on a memoir. It did not get picked up. The pandemic happened in March of 2020. I lost all my work. In August of 2020, my husband flew into the side of a mountain and almost died. And in October of 2020, I turned 60. And I’m like, okay, we have to just reset here. I mean, you know, we need to reset.

And I was like, I don’t want to travel anymore because I have this man. He’s perfectly fine now, but you know, but I almost lost him. I have this great studio in my backyard. Why am I traveling everywhere? You and so you sort of look at your life and go, what do I want it to be? How do I want to, what do want to do when I wake up every day? You know, and then how do I become a creative person in that? Like how do I make, join these worlds together? And, and for you, you just, your natural – the way it works for you. It’s like a sprinter saying, I think what I need to do is run the marathon. I mean, that makes no sense. Like your gift is like, you can deliver this in seven minutes, you know that.

Aaron

That’s right. Just anecdotally, really quick from you, why do you think we do that? But why do you think we do that to ourselves as creatives? Why do you think that when we have a natural cadence to kind of move into a form that suits us, is that just human nature to make things harder? What’s your take on that?

Tricia

I think sometimes we distrust things that are easy. A lot of time I would say in my head, if I was a real artist, I would be able to X, Y, and Z. And so when I was making visual work, I was like, if I was a real artist, I’d be able to draw from the figure. I’d be able to do really good figure drawing. And that just plagued me. I was at an artist residency and one of the artists that were there talking to different, those of us that were in this residency said, yeah, you’re terrible at drawing from the figure. He said, but your use of line is amazing. And then when, and so I was like, there’s another criteria. So I think we go into stuff with, there’s a certain kind of criteria. I’m gonna speak for myself. There’s a certain kind of criteria, which means I’m either a real artist or I’m successful or whatever. And it’s not a real criteria. We get to do what we want as artists. And so you just soar in seven minutes.

That’s your gift. Step into it. There’s other areas where I soar. Don’t try to be something I’m not. Be what I’m good at. 

Aaron

It’s such great advice.

Tricia

But I think sometimes we’re just hard on ourselves. We need to be, if it comes easily, I can’t trust it, or wait, I should look like something else as opposed to what I am. It’s like, this is actually what I’m good at. So just run with that.

Aaron 

It makes total sense and it brings me kind of some clarity on what I was telling you earlier. Thanks. I feel like I should send you a copay for this therapy session. But no, seriously, I was talking about Al Pacino and Marlon Brando. These are all people I admire, but they also, what I’m realizing, they signify a certain level of artistic integrity that I thought I needed to follow that arc. And that arc was their arc.

I didn’t think that. And so in my mind, the idea of telling stories, why it came so easily is because I never sought it out. It was just, people were literally going, here’s a hundred dollars. Can you tell? And I’m like, I, sorry, that’s not real art. I have to be really affected and mumble. I’m gonna be mumbling. Like, I just got to look at birds and read cue cards and I got to own islands and be, no, it’s a, you’re right. It’s not me. And what was funny was accepting the fact that there are some, listen, I’m a better storyteller than I was an actor. And the idea is don’t deny it for me. And I thought, like you said, lean into it. And what I realized was it was something people responded to. And ultimately I love doing it. But if there’s no one feeling different, changed, or for the better on the other side of it, then there’s no reason for me to do it.

Because then I’m just punching at the breeze and I’m talking to scarecrows in a field. Then you’re just some person who’s just kind of talking. My aim has always been the audience. My aim has always been, you hear me? Are you with me right now? I’m speaking to some part of you. Maybe someone different. I don’t know who you are. We have total different backgrounds, but I know there’s something I’m feeling. Do you feel this too? And that’s the synergy there. And so that’s where it came in.

Aaron 

So the seven minute story thing really freed me and I tested it and I developed my own style. I’m not pushing the envelope in my style. People have called my stuff folksy. It’s humorous tongue in cheek, but I also, I did learn from great storytellers when I was in New York as well because when I started seeing my expression, my form shifting to doing that, I started watching guys like I mentioned, Spaulding Gray and Eric Bogosian and I would watch their story and I would go, I can be funny and serious. It’s not standup comedy because that’s a totally, that’s, I’d never do it because the expectation is too hard. It’s like, make me laugh. No way, no way. But if I can accidentally make you laugh, that’s what wins because you come and go, and it’s this weird story about a plane. But I then can shift in a second and I can take you and go, yeah, it’s this weird plane, blah, blah, blah, blah, doing this thing, everything going crazy. I have all this neuroses. And then I thought about my dad.

Now you, I’m, I like that pivot. I like that moment to do that. So it freed me and I could be voluminous in my, in my output. I like moving fast, quick and putting lots of stuff out there. I don’t like sitting and waiting. I’m not patient. And this allowed me a form that got me out of the whole film thing. Like I respected the film stuff being in that student film, but I was like, this is how long is, folks, can we just get the thing out?

What do we do? And I understand and appreciate that level of artistry. I just don’t have it. So I loved not being inhibited by other hands. I like to just self.

Tricia

Yeah, oh no, yeah, yeah, absolutely, absolutely. And it’s also like you pick your medium. It’s like, I could never use oil paint. It takes too long to dry. I could do acrylics, glue, paper. You know, I just, I know I need to move fast. I need to move fast. I’m in the same way. And so you pick the medium that works for you. The reason why your stories are effective is because you are authentic. It’s not because you’re folksy or whatever, whatever.

I mean, that may be it, but for me, it’s because you’re authentic and you’re vulnerable. And so that’s why I’m connecting with you, because it’s like, OK, I believe this guy also, he’s being vulnerable. And that combination is incredibly powerful. 

Aaron

I receive that.

Tricia

Good, thank you. I want you to talk about the dandelion salad experience and how it surprised you and how it didn’t surprise you.

Aaron 

Yeah, so as we were growing Seven Minute Stories weekly audio across the podcast landscape, I am very strategic. And so once I find something that I love to do, I’m all in and I don’t, I try not to leave what I, I try not to leave too much to chance. Life is just chance in certain aspects. So I try to control what I can control. But then I’ve learned also surrender what I can’t. But there are things you can. And one thing was just being unashamed of promoting it, of telling about it, getting people to listen to it. I’m okay with building things like a startup and bootstrapping things and getting support. So as I’m building that and we’re telling those audio stories, you had mentioned you had a shift during COVID as so many of us did. It’s like, what a wild time. For me, it was just more time because I had started my own consultancy because I was remote. I had an opportunity to get a bunch of clients, help them learn about storytelling and podcasting. And so I built that and I was able to work fully remotely at this point at home during COVID. So I was very lucky. I could work at full time at home. I could do the Seven Minute stories thing at night and I had my consultancy during the day, all in the same ecosystem. But then I started telling little short stories. I thought like, well, why don’t I just experiment with YouTube shorts? And is there a way I can summarize or condense seven minutes into one minute or 60 seconds or whatever. And again, I didn’t have this understanding of what like reels were or TikTok. I didn’t, again, it’s a form that already existed, but my thought was like, how would these do? And I started just telling short little stories, terribly filmed, terrible lighting. I was in a closet and just telling the stories, but they seemed to do well. And there was one that I told that really hit in a viral way about this dandelion salad. And so it was a short that I put out there and it got over like 17 million views. It was wild.

Tricia  

When you did that, did you know it was going to have that kind like, you said, did you have a particular love of that story? Did you have a sense it would do well? I mean, like, what did you think?

Aaron

Yeah, you’re right. Let me contextualize better. So this is now part of what I’m doing right now, which is it’s sort of the I always keep saying how’s the sausages made. There’s the art that you see and then there’s the stuff that goes into the art, as you know. And so for me, the shorts initially were actually an exercise for me to work out a story. So the Dandelion story was actually a story I was trying to formulate in my brain to do a seven minute story about but I just hadn’t kind of fully formulated it. So I was like, well, I know the quick beginning, middle and end. Let me essentially workshop it as a short, see how the audience reacts, see if there’s a, If I can test it. And so I just did that. And the story in its simplest form is, you know, it just starts with my grandfather and I in my thirties having lunch. This is a couple of years before his passing and I I had finally had some success with the podcast stuff and some of my work there. And I took them out to lunch and it was at a fancy restaurant and we ordered dandelion salad and it was like, there are dandelions all over it. And he’s eating it and he tells me a story about how he grew up during the depression. And they had a little strip of lawn outside their inner city Cleveland home and his mother, my great grandma would send my grandfather and his sister out to that little strip of lawn and they would pick the dandelions and then my great-grandmother would wash them, clean them, saute them, and that’s what they would have for lunch. And that’s it. That’s the story. And I think the button at the end was my grandfather saying what he really did, which was, thank you for taking me to lunch. Congratulations. I’m proud of you. But something about my mom’s dandelion salad, it’s just a little bit better.

Aaron 

He wasn’t insulting me, but it was this kind of homage to it. So all of that within one minute and I told the story and there was just a great reaction to it globally. What was cool was so many people filtered in the comments that were just talking about growing up, making do with what you had. There was people from the South talking about the greens and okra and different stuff that they had. There was people in Portugal and Italy who were like, that’s just what we eat every day here. We still have dandelions. So it was a really cool thing that seemed to hit a nerve.

And what I learned from it to your question was like, one, it was validation and I had to be careful because it felt good from an ego standpoint, because I was like, yeah, this is great. But it, but it was validation in terms of that inhibition I had about like, or anybody can listen to my stories. I was like, no, this is because they’re not mine. Ultimately, they come, everyone tells one and that it becomes part of the, the ether. So what I realized was like, no, I should be doing this. This is a real thing.

The audio on Seventh Minute Stories is great. These shorts are now another growth opportunity to share my storytelling with the world. And that became kind of part of my storytelling universe as well. So that’s how that started. And that I was able to build a YouTube channel around it and stuff. So it was a really cool experience. And it just showed to me short stories connect with people and it kind of fit what I did naturally.

Tricia

And you had a universal theme. That’s what was so key about that story is it wasn’t about you. It was about this larger theme, you know, of one connecting with your grandfather, but this making do with what you have and the resilience of some people. I mean, it was just a universal thing that people could tap into. I mean, we know the more specific you become, the more universal it is. 

Aaron

That’s right.

Tricia

 It has been so much fun to talk to you, Aaron. So let me ask you this question. What do you need courage for right now?

Aaron 

This is a really good question. I think I need courage to continue to grow and tell stories in the way that I’m supposed to, not in the way that I think I should. I think I need courage to continue to grow this career wherever it goes in the way that I’m supposed to. If it leads me to a place that’s more about deep experiences rather than scalable growth, and business and clicks and metrics. That’s such a seductive thing because it’s important to know that you’re on track, to know that you’re gaining an audience, to know that you’re doing what you love. But man, I need courage to make sure that that’s not my North Star. And it never has been. And so I need the courage every day to remind myself, stay true. Follow that lighthouse of what you know to be true, which is to your point. Just be authentic. Be vulnerable. Tell the story you want to tell, and that’s the thing you got to follow. That’s staying true. All the other stuff are just ways and tools to measure that story, but that’s not the thing you’re aiming at. And I have to tell myself that all the time because it’s easy to say, like, yeah, you got to follow your love. It’s really hard to follow what you love because the love requires sacrifice. It’s really hard to follow the things that you’re passionate about because it requires something of you that is sacrificial.

Oftentimes it means the thing you want, your ego, the desire for more attention. And so in the weird space of telling stories, you need attention, but I need courage to make sure I’m doing it the right way and to keep doing it the right way.

Tricia

That’s a great answer. Thank you so much, Aaron. We’re just so tickled you were on the show and best of luck with everything that you’re doing. You’re really providing a great service to the world. So thank you so much.

Aaron 

Thank you so much for having me and please stay cool. I know you’re like in the hottest weather ever. Thanks for even being here, having a conversation with me. I really appreciate it.

Tricia

I wouldn’t have missed it. Thank you.

Tricia  

What a way to end our season. I just loved having Aaron on the show. And of course, he left me thinking about some questions. First, how do you adapt? How do you still do that thing that you love to do? Second, how are you working within your constraints or within your cadence? And lastly, what are you willing to sacrifice to make sure you can tell your story the way you want to tell it whether it’s visual art, or podcasting, or a new business?

Make sure you listen to and subscribe to Aaron’s podcast, Seven Minute Stories, and subscribe to his YouTube channel, and follow him on Instagram. I’m especially excited that this fall, I’ll be a guest on Aaron’s Storytelling University. Make sure to tune in and we’ll let you know when the episode is going to drop. 

And if you have a story you’re eager to tell, either to meet personal or business goals, and need help bringing it to life, I’d love to work with you. Please reach out to me at tricia@triciaroseburt.com.

Tricia  

So that concludes season four. We want to thank our amazing guests who all exemplify the No Time to Be Timid Manifesto. Please follow their work and support what they do. And I especially want to thank my producer, Adam Arnone, who makes everything sound effortless and beautiful and on occasion talks me off the ledge. Also our executive producers, Amy Grant, Nancy Perot and Sage Wheeler, who helped to make this show possible.

And even though the season’s ending, please tee us up for season five and review our podcast, subscribe to the show, and spread the word. We want as many people as possible to get the courage they need to do their creative work. As I said at the top of the show, we’ll be dropping a few special episodes in the fall. So for those updates, you can follow me on Instagram and LinkedIn at Trisha Rose Burt. And if you’d like to be added to my mailing list, please go to my website, trisharoseburt.com.

Most importantly, remember that this is no time to be timid.

No Time to Be Timid is written and produced by me, Trisha Rose Burt. Our episodes are produced and scored by Adam Arnone of Echo Finch. And our executive producers are Amy Grant, Nancy Perot, and Sage Wheeler. I’d also like to thank contributors to my Fractured Atlas Fiscal Sponsorship, which helps make this podcast happen. No Time to Be Timid is a presentation of I Will Be Good Productions.

Take Aways

• It takes courage to let go of societal expectations and pursue a path that brings joy and fulfillment,
• Throwing out the rulebook can lead to profound personal joy
• Community and connection are what sustain us
• And it is critical to protect one’s joy in the face of challenges, now more than ever. 

Resources

• Learn more about SC here.
• Follow her on instagram @scperot
• And buy her book “Styles of Joy” from Interabang Books!

Transcript

SC (00:04.834)

Hi I’m SC Perot. I’m a lawyer, professor, and author of the USA bestselling book, Styles of Joy. And this is No Time to be Timid.

Tricia  (00:25.838)

Hey there, I’m Tricia Rose Burt, and in this podcast, we talk to artists who show us how to find the courage to take risks, step out of our comfort zones, and use our creativity to make our work and change our world. Pay close attention, because this is No Time to be Timid.

Tricia  (00:46.634)

Welcome to the show. We’re so glad you’re here for this penultimate episode of the season. I like that word, penultimate. Even though it just means this is the season’s second to the last show, it sounds very important. And this episode is important because our guest today is exactly who we need to hear from in these unsettling times. 

SC Perot is the author of the USA Today bestselling book, Styles of Joy, a book which prompts its readers to examine the joy in their own lives. And while the book is about joy, it sprang from a place of deep grief. After leaving her corporate law career, then enduring a divorce, which resulted in losing family, friends, and her dog, and reeling in a post-pandemic world, SC experienced a tidal wave of loss. She found solace in walking, and while she walked, she listened to the uplifting music of Harry Styles. Before she knew it, she was seeing 17 Harry Styles concerts across five countries in 10 months. You know, I’m a storyteller and I love a good narrative arc. So picture this: a Stanford-educated, rule-following corporate lawyer, now bedazzled, sporting a boa, and dancing in a mosh pit with complete strangers.

SC wrote Styles of Joy to share her unexpected and joy-filled experience and to give us a framework on how to explore our own joy, asking us important questions about how we cultivate, adopt, protect, and spread joy. One of the lines in the book that resonated with me the most was, “these concerts gave me a reason to tap into my creativity, which had historically taken a backseat to my more conventional pursuits, i.e. the law.” How many of us put conventional expectations before our creativity?

SC is the embodiment of the No Time to be Timid Manifesto tenet, “Creativity is not a frivolous pursuit.” Some other takeaways from our conversation include, it takes courage to let go of societal expectations and pursue a path that brings joy and fulfillment. Throwing out the rule book can lead to profound personal joy. Community and connection are what sustain us. And it is critical to protect one’s joy in the face of challenges now more than ever. I have a soft place in my heart for people who walk away from one life to start another one, something I know a little bit about. So I’m just thrilled to have SC on the show. I’m so glad you’re joining us.

Tricia  (03:28.258)

Hey SC, welcome to the show. We’re so happy to have you here.

SC

Thank you for having me. It is such a pleasure.

Tricia

Good, good. Okay, so in your book, you say that you are historically a private person and this book is a real pivot for you. So what made you write the book? Because this show is called No Time to be Timid and that’s a very big step to take. 

SC

You know, that’s an interesting and loaded question.

Tricia

Wanted to start out big, SC, wanted to start out big.

SC (03:56.546)

I suppose I did too in terms of no longer being a private person. I share a good amount in this book and really open myself up, not in terms of the content, but I’m adjusting to being exposed to strangers for the first time. And that’s just a different way to live your life. And a lot of people do it very bravely and I’ve been grateful for their counsel. But you know, I never really felt like I had something I wanted to publicly say. And…

I think everyone that knows me knows I’m extremely opinionated in private and not online and not any public medium. I don’t keep my thoughts to myself, but I think the internet has made, it’s such a double edged sword. On the one hand, if you are exposing yourself by saying something publicly or publishing something, whatever it may be, you are opening yourself up to anyone’s opinion anywhere in the world. But on the other hand, it has made it so easy for people to share and it’s really changed this narrative of what it means to share something. And for me, I actually found writing this book way less daunting for that reason. Actually, I felt that I was trying to strike a chord by reintroducing authenticity and vulnerability into sharing. So on the one hand, it’s daunting, because anyone can chime in and on the other, it’s not as daunting because so many people are sharing in so many formats and ways. I think the last thing I’ll say is I didn’t sit down to write a book. 

Tricia

What did you sit down to do?

SC (05:50.06)

So I started writing for myself a little bit and really one of my favorite stories of how the book came to be, I really love telling it because it really does tie to some of the messages in the book, which is the power of one person to be a force for good. And maybe it’s inspiration, maybe whatever it may be. And I got a message from a high school friend I hadn’t seen in many, many years when I was on these adventures. And she said, you know, have you thought about writing any of this down? You should publish an article when Harry Styles’ tour is finished. And she used to work for a high profile magazine. So I really took that as a compliment. I thought, she really knows what she’s talking about.

So, I’d been logging my experiences with photos and videos, but principally for myself not to share with anyone else. And as I sat down to write an article, which I really thought was a fun idea, I thought, well, particularly with this post pandemic angle, I can write about watching live music in five countries and seeing people kind of reclaim this communal and collective joy. I sat down to write a New York Times Modern Love article. But unfortunately that word count is quite short. I think the last time I checked perhaps 1,500 words and then I ended up writing 98,000. So yeah, so yeah, I clearly had more to say.

Tricia

And I’m so glad that you said it. And so this is a question I’m excited about asking. So why did you go to law school? Because law school is a very wordy profession and a lot of writers who don’t realize they’re writers, at least consciously, go to law school because it’s so wordy. So why did you go to law school?

SC

So this is one of my favorite stories to tell. When I was graduating from Vanderbilt, from the undergrad program, one of my happiest memories of all time was I was crossing the stage, know, cap, gown, receiving my diploma, and I heard someone calling my name. And I was like, well, surely not, because my parents are up in the nosebleeds. We were in the basketball arena because it was rained out. And I’m like, my friends are in the back. Who could this possibly be?

And I look out and two of my favorite art history professors are cheering me on by name. And I just had this wash of just gratitude for having gone to a school like that where it was a small program and you got to know everyone and it felt like such a community. But as I filed back to my seat in the arena, I thought to myself, you know, I had this lightning strike moment of I have to go to graduate school.

And I looked up at the ceiling as in, wait, what? I mean, I hadn’t thought about it, but it was crystal clear. And I really think it was seeing those professors and realizing how much I loved the classroom and that was ending as well as my fun social life with my friends and what have you. Ultimately, shockingly, I hadn’t had the thought to pursue graduate school until that exact cap and gown moment. So then the fork in the road was business school or law school.

And I looked at the required exams to go to either of those program types, the GMAT or the LSAT. And frankly, I didn’t want to relearn calculus or whatever I would have to do for the GMAT. I used to feel shame that that was a fork in the road in my line of thinking. But I actually tell my students now that I’m teaching back at Vanderbilt, I’m like, well, that’s just paying attention to your natural aptitude. So that’s a perfectly logical pun intended with logic.

reason to choose one or the other. But in terms of how that ties into being a writer, you know, I had always really enjoyed, I mean, certainly if I were having to choose math versus English, I would always choose English. But I don’t think I ever considered myself to be a writer. And funnily enough, I still don’t consider myself a writer. I think being an author and being a writer are two very different things.

Tricia  (09:47.95)

Tell me what you think is different about it.

SC

Well, maybe it’s not imposter syndrome necessarily, but for me to be a doctor, you do all these things and to be a lawyer, you do all these things. But to be a writer is really ambiguous to me and it feels like a constant practice. This book is the only thing I have written and I haven’t written anything since. And I mean that very literally, like a thank you note.

It’s like I left all my words on the mat and even a thank you note feels challenging after that. I’ve dried out all my words. But more seriously, being a lawyer, it really stripped out my love of writing. Being an art history major, I had been trained to have very flowery language and God forbid you repeat phrases. I mean, that was so taboo. Whereas when you’re drafting contracts, for example, you have to use these same technical terms over and over again. And for me, I mean, it was so soul sucking. Well, this is this is more like calculus, actually, no one warned me so formulaic.

Tricia  (11:03.993)

And you’re building your time in six-minute increments. 

SC

Which is not a way to live.

Tricia

Yeah, yeah. I build my time in 15-minute increments and I was like, I got to get out of this one. Six minutes would undo me. 15 was hard enough. Right. And so is that why you decided to quit being a corporate lawyer?

SC (11:20.11)

So in the pandemic, it got to the point I just couldn’t will myself to do it anymore. I had the best job, great clients, great bosses. I loved my coworkers, still some of my closest friends to this day, but working from home, I mean, it really stripped out so much of what I loved about that job. And I remember calling a mentor of mine and I said, who was not at the firm, so I could speak very candidly about my thinking. And I said, you know, I love pro bono work and I love recruiting, you know, old habits die hard. I was a recruitment chair for my sorority in college. And apparently, you know, I enjoyed firing up those skills again in the professional context. And you know, and I said, and I love my colleagues and coworkers and I laid out all these things. And she said,

Well, I hate to break it to you, but you don’t love your job because you were not hired to do any of those things. And I thought, that is dead on the money. That is.

Tricia

You’ve never said once, I love law. You said I’ve loved everything else but it.

SC

She’s like, so you don’t like drafting contracts? I was like, no. She said, well, that is your job.

Tricia  (12:36.202)

You know, we need those people in our lives. 

SC

Absolutely.

Tricia

We need those people to tell us, you don’t like your job. So I love so much that what you stepped into was going to Harry Styles concerts, because there is a line that you wrote on page 269, and we’re going to talk about this a little bit more. But you said, I’ve always loved making jewelry. And these concerts gave me a reason to tap into my creativity, which had historically taken a backseat to my more conventional pursuits, i.e. the law. So when I was reading the book, I was going, this is giving her permission to be the creative person that she is. Harry Styles is escorting her into her creative self. And so it was just fascinating to watch you make jewelry, make a costume, make it this. You were just going in all these directions. I’m like, she doesn’t know what’s happening to her.

She’s becoming an artist or becoming the artist who she is. Give us a little bit about how you got introduced to Harry Styles because I think it’s fascinating that you went from billing your time in six minute increments to what you ended up doing. So talk a little bit about that.

SC

Tricia, you are the first person to call this out in this way about it being part of this through line to creativity. That was such a kind of throwaway sentence of, and actually the editor said to take it out. 

Tricia

No way!

SC

Yes! You are the first person of everyone I’ve interacted with around this book to bring up this one kind of element. And this is making me so happy. You’re so right.

Tricia

Yeah, that’s very funny.

SC

So yes, it was the costume making and the jewelry making and all these and the funny, drafting funny posters and this kind of quirky side that again was taking the backseat to these more conventional pursuits. And I want to say kind of before I get on this subject of why Harry Styles and how this all came to be, I think what’s fun about the part that you just highlighted is it really brings up this idea of how one role or one part of our lives can become so dominant that it really eclipses other parts of our personality. And it really brings up this tension of why can’t lawyers also love making bracelets? 

Tricia

Yes. Yes.

SC

Why can’t lawyers also like making costumes? I was getting this feedback of, you know, have you lost your mind? What’s with the feather boas? You used to be a corporate lawyer. And I’ll tell you, you’ll love this. This isn’t in the book. When I was doing one of the forms of legal review for the book, which was analyzing trademark issues or anything that might be around it, I hopped on the phone with one of my former bosses and she said, this is the manifesto for fan girl attorneys. She goes, do you realize I have seen Madonna 35 times?

Tricia

Oh my gosh.

SC

And I said, you’re kidding. And she said, and when you roasted golf and you said, what is the difference? She goes, I have to listen to these men, these partners all day. They bring their putters to work. They’re putting down the hallways, but God forbid I want to go see Madonna again. And she said, I love this project. I’ve got your back. We’re going to have so much fun working on this. And I just thought–  I had no clue that she, and I knew her already. I had no clue that was part of her passion, passion profile, joy profile, and anyway, it just really made me so happy, so.

Tricia

You love this part where you have a whole section about being judged, about how you’re being judged by all of these people for having this joy and having this passion. I think my favorite line is, “you traveled with someone with tattoos?” Oh my God, you’ve lost your mind. They had tattoos. But it is that either or, that it cannot be. You can’t be a crazy creative person and be a corporate lawyer at the same time. Why is that? Why can’t that happen? Why can’t one feed the other? 

SC

Absolutely.

Tricia

But I love the line, the opposite of joy is being judgmental. And I love that line.

SC (17:02.574)

Well, I certainly can speak to that after all of the, we’ll call it feedback I was getting from different corners of my life. But I really want to bring listeners along for this story. When I was going through this acute season of grief, which was due to a devastating divorce and I had stopped practicing law and also it was the pandemic, and all of a sudden I looked around and I barely recognized my life and I started processing everything I was going through by going on these very long walks around the Town Lake Trail in Austin, Texas. And I vividly remember starting one of those long walks by typing  “good energy” into the search bar on Spotify. And it was, I look back and I’m thinking that was kind of a cry for help because I needed, I needed some good energy. That’s exactly what I was in the market for. And I had never listened to Harry Styles.

But his third album called Harry’s House came out two days after I told my then husband I wanted a divorce. And so this new album was sprinkled throughout this good energy playlist that Spotify fed me. And that’s when I first listened to his music and it was such a mood boost. You know, it was bringing me so much joy. And I vividly remember saying to my mom, I said, this is working. This Harry Styles thing is working because I’m moving my body, it’s time and nature, so it endorphins, vitamin D, happy music, and along this beautiful lake. And it really was helping. Sometimes, I would do it twice a day. And it was a really surefire recipe for a good mood boost. But then I did what anyone would do, and I saw his show 17 times in five countries, and travel with strangers I met along the way. So the book resulted.

Tricia

Of course!

Tricia  (19:02.798)

We’ll get back to the second half of our conversation in a moment, but right now I want to tell you about our sponsor, Interabang Books, a Dallas-based independent bookstore, which was named one of the country’s top five bookstores by Publishers Weekly. They have a fabulous curated online collection and it’s just as easy to shop with them as it is with Amazon. Who doesn’t want to support an independent bookstore? Please show them some love and check them out at interabangbooks.com.

That’s Interabang, I-N-T-E-R-A-B-A-N-G, Books.com.

Tricia  (20:06.35)

Tell me one of your experiences that was one of the most profound for you in this Harry Styles journey. When was a moment when some kind of light bulb went off or some sort of shift happened for you?

SC

Well, I think it’s interesting as we discuss judgment. Maybe I couldn’t have articulated what was stirring inside of me at these shows. And I certainly have the writing process to thank for really uncovering what it was. But it was not just about Harry Styles. I mean, he’s one person. I was looking around and I was watching how powerful it was to see people in community with one another experiencing joy. And it made me critically think about communal and collective joy for the first time, which post-pandemic felt so special and so noteworthy because we were robbed of so many forums for this kind of community, whether it be religious worship, sports, live music, anything that brings us together to experience joy. And it really, it was so inspiring. And I just thought there was a particular show, it was my second show, and I want to tell listeners, I did not set out to go to 17 Harry Styles concerts. If you read the book, you see how it simply snowballed.

Tricia  (21:33.77)

It was bigger than you, SC. It was bigger than you.

SC

Something was coming and I was the most oblivious I can tell you that. But at the second show, I was with a lot of my dear girlfriends in Austin at the time, and we’re up in the nosebleeds, I think we’re second to the last row, having the time of our lives.

Tricia

What does having the time of your life look like? Are you dressed up? Are you dancing? What does it look like?

SC

We’re in costume, we got feather boas, you know, we’re just, but really I think the word for it is carefree. And I had this moment where I looked down the line of our friends and I thought, that’s my friend who’s struggling with breast cancer. That’s my friend who is in the thick of her PhD candidacy. That’s my friend who is dealing with really severe depression. That’s my friend who is in an abusive family context. That’s my friend who is the sole caretaker for her aging parents. And I looked and I just thought, but look at us right now. 

Tricia  (22:39.832)

Mm-hmm.

SC

And Harry Styles challenges the crowd every night. He says, I want you to have as much fun as you possibly can tonight. And I challenge you to have more fun than I will.

And it just, it gave me this perspective on entertainment that I had never had before, because I had never critically thought about the role that, yes, it’s pop culture, sure, but look at what it’s allowing people to do.

Tricia

What did it allow you to do? Like what were you doing that you’d never done before?

SC

Well, I think, and I’m skipping ahead because I really think one of the most powerful takeaways from all of this took me a while to really understand why it was feeding my soul in the way that it was. But I was already in a season of loss. I had lost my partner, my house, my job, my dog, a whole family, a whole group of friends, you know, and this idea of what I thought my future was going to look like. And it’s like I had the courage to say,actually, let’s go further. I want to be anonymous in a crowd where no one knows who I know, who I don’t know, where I went to law school. No one cares. I can tell you that. It doesn’t matter what you have or don’t have. And it was so cathartic because it really allowed me to get to the root of this healing experience because in this season of loss, I was left asking myself this big profound question, which is, who am I in any single room I walk into? No context, complete anonymity. If people ask me, you know, where is your greatest source of confidence? You’re a really confident person. Where does that come from? And I would point to that experience, is that I was able to navigate crowds and make friends along the way when no one knew anything about me. And it made me really proud to know that I can be a deeply kind person regardless of the environment that I’m in. And it was so, it really reframed the amount of things that I had lost in the identity shifting and stripping that came with divorce and changing my career and all these things, where it’s like, no, I can still stand on my own two feet, regardless of what my resume says, regardless of whatever, you know, preconceived notions people might have or not have or whatever it may be, or whatever people value. And to me, that was so profound and such a gift. And I wasn’t anyone’s neighbor or ex-wife or lawyer, well, I was no one’s lawyer at the time. But I wasn’t a graduate of a certain school. It just didn’t matter. And for me, that was the greatest gift of all these experiences.

Tricia  (25:31.532)

You talk about so many people that you met, but was there someone on the road that really helped you along to those realizations? Because many of the people were very different backgrounds than you, very different, you know, intellectual, emotional, financial, they were very, very different people than you. And yet you found some common ground. What was that experience like? And was there one person who really just kind of helped you see it? Like the one with all the tattoos?

SC

My friend Margo, sure. Well, there were a lot of people and I think I can certainly pick a few that stand out. But for me, we talked about how these experiences allowed me to kind of pull this cord of creativity and kind of see what happens. But also I really feel like I got back to my truest self because I think two of my greatest passions are people and storytelling. And so how thrilling for me to just never know who I’m going to get to talk to at any of these concerts. I mean, that’s like my dream. I mean, I keep in touch with more people I’ve met on airplanes than I could possibly count. Imagine that on steroids. I mean, it was just like I was a kid in a candy store. 

Tricia  (26:48.843)

What interests you about it?

SC (26:58.476)

Because I say to people all the time, I get enough of me all day, every day. I don’t need to be around people who are like me. I don’t need to be around people who are like me, dress like me, believe what I do. You know, I always say to people, what’s the worst that’s going to happen? You change your mind? Okay. Go forth and conquer. And for me, I remember at a particular show, I was talking to this couple, they were recently engaged and their names were, well, I probably shouldn’t say their names. They were recently engaged and they were telling me what it was like to leave the Mormon church, to come out of the closet and what it was like to date in the tiny gay population of Salt Lake City. And one of them is an undertaker. And I am like, I would like to know all about that. I don’t have a single reference point that I can relate, but I’m curious. And all of a sudden they start asking about my dating life. And we keep in touch to this day.

And they have been such cheerleaders for the book, such cheerleaders for every project that I undertake and do – undertake, sorry, that was a bad pun. – But for me, it’s just this reminder that you can have nothing in common with something on paper, but everything in common where it matters. And I think the interesting thing about an artist like Harry Styles is he puts a value set at the forefront of his fan culture. And that is all about inclusivity and kindness.

And I think fans take that very seriously and want to bring that to the forefront. And you really experience it in these crowds. People ask me, this is a very niche question that people ask me, but I teach in the human and organizational development program at Vandy. And they say, is there any overlap between your experiences at these Harry Styles shows and what you bring into the classroom? And I say, there is. The Venn diagram overlap might be relatively small, but this concept of psychological safety is very interesting to me. What happens when people feel free to be themselves and feel encouraged to bring their voice to the room? And that is what I was experiencing at these concerts, is everyone felt welcome and everyone felt safe. And what results is this beautiful love bubble of people being their very best versions of themselves and even letting their creativity flag fly, which is which was really a special experience for me

SC

You know, we have a manifesto for the show. The first one, which I think you can relate to is the riskiest thing you can do is play it safe. It’s because, you know, for me, it was like, I just kept trying to be safe and it was blowing up every time. But I think it’s the fifth one is, is creativity is not a frivolous pursuit. And I think that that’s, for me, looking at it through the, when I was reading your book, where again, I think there was, we have so many overlaps in our life experiences, but also, knowing I’m supposed to be doing something conventional, but I am not a conventional person. And so I want to be around these people who have boas and are costumed and because I can learn so much from these people. And it is just a thrill to read the book and watch you stepping into this creative person that you are. And so I was just sort of cheering you along. Every time you made a costume, I was like, you know, go SC go, you know, but talk to me a little bit about, you said you’ve always loved making jewelry. What were you making along the way growing up? And like, when did you stop making? Like, was there a moment you made, made, made, and then you stopped?

SC

That’s a great question. I loved summer camp growing up. So any kind of, I mean, if they would have allowed me to sit in the craft hut, I would have all day. And my sweet mom was so patient with the treasure that I brought back from summer camp. Beautiful decoupage plates, lovely, lovely things. But I actually picked up jewelry making in the pandemic more than anything. And that was a saving grace for me in the pandemic. I started this little jewelry business and it was just beaded things, necklaces, bracelets, but I would take orders. Simple, everyone can do it, everyone should, it’s very fun. And I was taking orders from friends all over the country and I started a little Instagram account and I would watercolor my little enclosure cards. So that was another outlet that I got to make these watercolor paintings for the little notes that I would write all of my customers. But it was, it brought me more peace and joy in those lockdown days. And it also gave me a way to connect with friends I otherwise wouldn’t. And it’s like, hey, how are you doing? You know, yes, I’ll make you the turquoise and yellow bracelet, but really, how are you? And it ended up, it just was my favorite thing. So I had all the materials and I still, I’ll have girls nights and whenever my girl cousins come over, we make jewelry and, but I had all the materials and I just thought, well, and this was before Taylor Swift’s Eras Tour. This was really before the friendship bracelet thing kicked off in such a way, which obviously I loved because I was like, the world needs more friendship bracelets. This is great. But I was making inside jokes, you know, and I would for, on bracelets or lyrics song names. I made three necklaces for myself that I wore to every show that it was one necklace per album. And so I had just the letters of the song titles, the track list down the album. And what I love is any non Harry Styles fan would look at it and it doesn’t say anything, but girls at the concerts would be like album one, two, and three, look at that. I mean, they picked it up. So, but it was just, it was a fun, creative outlet. 

Tricia

You found your tribe

SC

No question.

Tricia

and we get often raised that this is your tribe. And then you’re like, no, I don’t think so. I think actually my tribe’s over there and they look a little different. 

SC (33:08.546)

Or both and.

Tricia  (33:27.534)

Yeah, or both and, you know, I mean, have my feet are in so many worlds. If I had a dinner party and invited somebody from all of my worlds, it would be pretty interesting. There is a moment in your book that is particularly profound. When, well, there’s two things I want to say. One is, I love this quote because I could totally relate to it. “My friends were now having their third babies and I was now traveling with a near stranger to Los Angeles for a concert by a pop star whose tattoos I was suddenly too familiar with.” I’m like, you go girl. But that sense of my friends are doing all these other things and I am completely out here in another direction. How did that, how did you reconcile that? How did it work for you? Because a lot of times being an artist, we are different from the people, you know, we’re not part of the general population. We’re doing different things and looking at different things. And so how did you navigate that feeling of difference?

SC

Well, comparison is the thief of joy. And I think, going through what I had gone through, knowing that divorce was the right decision and something I had to do, I kind of got this really beautiful gift in that process, which was I sincerely did not care what people thought. Because I’m thinking I can onboard anyone to why I made this decision, and it’s just not their business. All of a sudden I expanded that line of thinking to, I think this should apply to all facets of my life.

Tricia  (34:55.8)

Yeah.

SC

If it doesn’t work for them, that’s okay, they shouldn’t do it. It works for me. So that’s that. And I just think this entire book, not just how it lives in the confines of the front and the back cover, but truly the whole story of how it came to be is the ultimate example of why you should trust your instincts. Something was working and yes, people thought I lost my mind and no, I did not think I was going to write a book. I was doing this just for myself. And at first I thought I’ve had some really low lows. Who cares if I need some really high highs, but along the way it was like, no, something else is bricks. This is feeding other parts of my heart. This is stimulating other parts of my brain. And I couldn’t articulate it at the time, but it’s interesting when people say, you must be so proud you wrote a book. Well, maybe. I mean, I’d have to kind of, it’s not untrue, you know, but really if you ask me, what are you proud of? I say that I protected my joy.

Tricia  (36:11.562)

Yeah.

SC

And I was listening just to myself. And look at this career that’s unfolded. Look at these experiences that I’ve had. But for protecting my joy, I would not be an author. But for protecting my joy, I would not have gone on this book tour. But for protecting my joy, I wouldn’t be on this podcast with you today. And but for protecting my joy, I wouldn’t have had time away from Austin where I had lived for five years that really helped me clear my head and realize I need to move cities. But I couldn’t have known that unless I had had these adventures and I wouldn’t have walked away from this dream house that I had been building to know that there was something more on this leap of faith. But I felt so confident in my own skin and within the confines of my instincts that I knew I was gonna be okay, you know, regardless of what my next chapter looked like.

Tricia

That it’s a very powerful moment in the book. And that’s the one thing I wanted. Another thing I wanted to ask you about is when you return to this home, which is supposed to be where you’re going to live all these years and do all these things. And you go, yeah, no, and get in the car and call the real estate agent and say, please sell it with everything inside. It is an amazingly profound and powerful moment. So just recount it for me a little bit, like what it felt like to go, this is not where I’m supposed to be.

SC

I had had months of listening to myself and I had never dialed down the noise of other people’s opinions more significantly. And a beautiful part of this adventure that I haven’t mentioned, I packed a carry-on bag for what was supposed to be nine days and I was going to four Harry Styles concerts, but then I met a friend in the bathroom line outside of Coventry, the Coventry England music venue in a Tesco grocery store. You know, this random, if you believe in random, way to meet someone. And my friend Margo is also American and she had extra tickets and asked if I wanted to keep going. And I had no reason why not. And so I had very, very little with me for 30 days. And it was so freeing.

Tricia  (38:37.678)

Hmm.

SC

So freeing, I felt so unencumbered. So the contrast, even this is before I knew I was writing a book, this is just how it unfolded truly in real time. I wheeled in my tiny suitcase that had sustained me for 30 days into this huge house that I had purchased with my ex-husband and it was supposed to be kind of our dream in this next live chapter. And I was reunited with so much stuff. I mean, birthday gifts, Christmas gifts, wedding registry stuff, just all things from another life. And I’m a very sensitive and sentimental person. And if something was not, you know, for example, I looked at the KitchenAid mixer and my former father-in-law has a favorite pie and my ex-husband surprised me with the KitchenAid mixer one Christmas Eve so that we could make it for his dad. It was so sweet. It was so thoughtful. He knew I loved to cook. It was a really nice gift. It was for the sweet reason to surprise his dad with his favorite pie. And that was lovely, but I don’t bake. And I have not used that KitchenAid mixer a single time since in nine years or whatever it was. And I looked at it and all I saw was a memory of that one Christmas Eve and it made me so sad. And I don’t need it. And it was just example over example over example, time after time after time. And to walk away, I mean, I moved to Nashville without a plate. And guess what? You just really don’t need that much stuff.

Tricia  (40:24.494)

I do know, I do know. And it’s a lot easier to be, I know I’ve said this on the show before, but there was a quote by Grace Paley saying what it took to be a writer, an artist, and it was one, a person who believes in your work, and two, low overhead. Because you can be way more agile. You can just be way more agile and do the work that you want to do and not be worrying about maintaining this home or the second car, whatever it is, just to streamline it, to not have those things that take you away from your creative work and your creative self. But it was a very, I was like, holy moly, that takes some guts. So that was a really wonderful moment in the book. Well, here’s my question for you that I ask all of my guests. What is the thing that you need the most courage for right now?

SC (41:24.95)

Wow. That is a great question. I’m in a very strange period personally right now. I mean, this book, I love it. I’m passionate about it. I’m proud of it. But my timeline for this project is not what other people are experiencing. You know, the story ends two years ago within the book. But then I had the whole writing process, but then that ended.

So now I’m in the release phase, which is the phase that requires the least amount of work for me, especially book tour ended last week. And I think I just need the courage to sit in the unknown. It was a really, this is my first book. This is my first, like we discussed at the top of the episode, this is my first public output in any form. And for me just not knowing what any day is gonna bring. At first, I really wasn’t handling it very well. And the courage to just sit in the unknown is something I’m working on. I am happiest when I am stressed to the gills. I love a project. I love adrenaline. I laughed with my therapist the other day. I was like, why am I fantasizing about studying for the GMAT? And she’s like, are you okay? But I love to really focus on something and it’s not that season right now, and I have to relax into that, which is very uncomfortable for me.

Tricia

I mean, I just look at you and it’s like your brain is going nonstop with ideas. And so I can’t imagine what you could be creating in this time of waiting.

SC (43:08.322)

Well, my favorite placeholder has always been a good dinner party. It scratches so many parts of my brain. I love to cook, and it’s such a challenge to cook for many people. When I say the more, the merrier, I mean, push me to the limit. I love it. And the creative element of hosting and menu planning and all those things, but also it’s all about connection and community and people in storytelling. So, of course, that’s always been a great way to blend a lot of things I love.

Well, you are spreading so much joy just existing and with your book. And we’re so excited that we had you on the show, SC. Thank you so much for joining us.

SC

Thank you so much for having me. It was really fun.

Tricia  (44:06.572)

SC is a poster child for No Time to be Timid. She found her joy and her creativity by pushing herself way out of her comfort zone. And she got me thinking about some questions. Is your creativity taking a backseat to more conventional pursuits? Remember, you don’t have to be like SC and me and walk away from your job to pursue a creative life, but are you making it a priority? When was the last time you surprised yourself and did something completely new? And are you protecting your joy? And are you trying to spread some as well? Using your creativity can help you do just that. 

Follow SC on Instagram at SC Perot, that’s P-E-R-O-T. Learn more about her at scperot.com and make sure to buy her book, Styles of Joy. Here’s a little paragraph so you can get a taste and some inspiration:

“It’s these days when we need joy vitamins the most, when we have to cling to joy life rafts a little tighter, when we have to cherish the mundane, let alone the extraordinary, when we have to give the microphone to the good, we have to take it where we can get it. It’s not flippant or trivial or superficial. It’s mission critical. It’s sacred. An intentional joy practice is about sitting in life storms and cracking open a yellow umbrella. We aren’t taking joy vitamins because we are ignoring life’s challenges. We’re putting salve on our broken hearts and clinging to even the tiniest winds because we are paying full attention.”

So go buy the book and make sure you buy it from our sponsor Interabang Books.

Tricia  (46:00.45)

Thanks for joining us. If you have any questions, feel free to reach out to us at podcast@triciaroseburt.com. And if you like what you hear, please review our podcast, subscribe to the show, and spread the word. It really helps build our audience. For more updates, you can follow me on Instagram and LinkedIn @triciaroseburt. And if you’d like to be added to my mailing list, please go to my website triciaroseburt.com. And remember, this is no time to be timid!

No Time to be Timid is written and produced by me, Tricia Rose Burt. Our episodes are produced and scored by Adam Arnone of Echo Finch. And our executive producers are Amy Grant, Nancy Perot, and Sage Wheeler. I’d also like to thank contributors to my Fractured Atlas Fiscal Sponsorship, which helps make this podcast happen. No Time to be Timid is a presentation of I Will Be Good Productions.

You can change yourself and change the world. It’s No Time to be Timid if you haven’t heard You can find what’s true, that’s what you deserve. It’s No Time to be Timid if you haven’t heard. Let’s go!

Take Aways

• creativity is an act of courage
• beware of being a shadow artist, someone who encourages other people to be creative, but who doesn’t pursue their own creative potential
• it’s never too late to step into your passion
• collaboration in music and in life is about listening and finding shared truths
• personal experiences, especially those related to family, are often the catalyst for some of our most compelling creative endeavors. 

Resources

• Follow Barry on instagram @thebarrydean
• Learn more about his music at creativenationmusic.com
• Check out Luci and learn more about smart wheelchair technology
• And watch God’s Will, which Rolling Stone listed as one of the saddest country music songs of all time. And here’s Moving Oleta. Get ready to cry.

Transcript

Barry (00:00.11)

I’m Barry Dean, I’m a songwriter and the founder of Luci, and this is No Time to Be Timid.

Tricia (00:21.934)

Hey there, I’m Tricia Rose Burt, and in this podcast, we talk to artists who show us how to find the courage to take risks, step out of our comfort zones, and use our creativity to make our work and change our world. Pay close attention, because this is no time to be timid.

Welcome to the show. So back in Episode One, I told you that I was gonna feature several folks from Nashville on the show this season, a result of my living there on and off for four years, and a place that always fills my creative well. So far, we’ve had Kimberly Williams-Paisley, Megan Barry, and Vince Gill. And today we’re gonna talk to Nashvillian Barry Dean. I didn’t know Barry before I interviewed him, but for the past two years, our mutual pal, Deanna Hemby, who’s the mother of one of his co-writers, the Grammy Award winning Natalie Hemby, kept saying to me, Tricia, you need to have Barry on your show. Now, Deanna is one of those people where you do whatever she tells you to do. Plus, I know she has my back and I can trust her instincts. And when it comes to having Barry as a guest, she was right on the money.

Barry’s basically a creative genius and his story of breaking into the music industry in his 30s is one of the best I’ve ever heard. When you look at who he’s written with and the songs he’s written, it kind of blows the top of your head off. Reba McEntire was the first person to record one of his songs. Martina McBride was next. Toby Keith, Alison Krauss, Jason Aldean – the list keeps going. He’s written and co-written multiple number one singles, including Day Drinking and Pontoon for Little Big Town.

(clip of Pontoon)

He’s been nominated for a Grammy for Best Country Song on Tim McGraw’s Diamond Rings and Old Barstools. And here’s a clip of Barry singing that song.

(clip of Diamond Rings and Old Barstools)

Barry also wrote Ingrid Michaelson’s top 40 hit, Girls Chase Boys

(clip of Girls Chase Boys)

All this you might expect from a songwriter who appears on a show about creative courage. But what really made me want to speak with Barry is he’s also the CEO of Luci, a company dedicated to creating mobility solutions for people in wheelchairs, like his daughter, Catherine. Along with his brother, Jered, and a team of experts, Barry took on the rigid, status quo clinging powers-that-be in the mobility industry and created smart wheelchair technology – that never existed before – that allows Catherine and others like her to move safely and freely through this world. What they’ve accomplished is unbelievable.

Some insights from our conversation include creativity is an act of courage; beware of being a shadow artist, someone who encourages other people to be creative, but who doesn’t pursue their own creative potential; it’s never too late to step into your passion; collaboration in music and in life is about listening and finding shared truths; and personal experiences, especially those related to family, are often the catalyst for some of our most compelling creative endeavors. 

Between his music and Luci, Barry has touched the lives of countless people. Get ready for an amazing conversation.

Tricia (04:35.106)

Hey Barry, welcome to the show.

Barry

Hi, thanks for having me on here. This is great.

Tricia

You’re kind of a double threat because just one of your, like one of the things you do would be enough to fill a whole segment. So it’s like, I’ve got between your songwriting and between Luci, it’s going to be an interesting endeavor to try to fill it all into one episode. But I am really curious how they feed one another. But I want to start out because I’m reading a little bit about you and it’s not like you came out of the womb as a songwriter, you did some other stuff, right? So talk to me a little bit about how entered into the songwriting world, because it wasn’t until your 30s, right?

Barry

That’s right. I’m kind of a random case. But I, you know, when I was very young, I got smitten with music and I wanted to do that. And I actually did move to LA when I was around 18, maybe 19. And I lived out there for a little while pursuing, you know, being a rock star and all of those things. And as I look

Tricia (05:37.814)

On the microphone? Were you gonna be singing as the rock star or were you gonna be a songwriter?

Barry

I thought I had been, yeah, I thought I was probably set up for that and it was delusional, but you know, it happens. And I went out and things went very well. By the way, my story is not like I went out and it was horrible. doors opened. I was able to move quickly. But I would say this looking now as an older guy, looking back at that guy at 18 and all, I realize, I kind of believe success is harder to manage than failure. Because failure is so clarifying. You know who your friends are. You know exactly where you are. You know what you don’t have. And I mean, it’s just so clarifying. I don’t like it. What’s the old Philipp Yancey book, where he talks about pain is the gift no one wants? And so it’s like that. But then success brings pressure. It kind of elevates the wire or the high dive. It just keeps moving. And if you don’t have…If you haven’t, like I had not sorted out my,  some elements of my theology and some elements of my self-worth and some of those things, that can be harder to manage honestly than failure in some ways. So I was terrified of failure, but I was really having good experiences. And so the long and short on that Thanksgiving day in the late eighties, a young 18, 19 year old boy, ran out of brave.

I had a counselor who said, creativity is just an act of courage. That’s what it is. And if I’ll see it that way, and if I had been able to tell that kid at Barney’s Beanery that day, on Thanksgiving Day, I was eating chili and apple pie, and I thought, I think I’ll go home. And I quit. And I put it in a box, and I kind of hid it away, and I became what Julia Cameron would call a shadow artist.

Tricia  (07:34.55)

Yes.

Barry

Our natures and you’re this way too. You know, we’re all curious is what we really are. We’re hyper vigilant. We’re very curious. And so I went into business and was working in that way.

Tricia

I’m gonna stop right there. What did your success look like when you said, I’m not doing this anymore?

Barry

Well, it was the opening of doors, having meetings that the risk kept moving forward. And I’ll be real honest, there was a theological part to it, which, you know, a lot of people would go, that’s crazy. But, you know, I grew up in a wonderful family. I have a wonderful family. And now at this age, I have great roots, you know, for my structure of faith. But I grew up in a worldview at that time, which was there’s a secular world and then there’s a Christian world and I was out here pursuing the evil rock and roll, the secular path, the wide way to destruction. And so it created a distance from the people and support networks that I knew. And so I see now, as anything good is really moving you away from anything you know. And I think that guy just could not handle.I didn’t like the guy for a long time and now I look at him with compassion and go, I see. You were just, you felt that the better I do, the further away from home I can become.

Barry (08:57.238)

I get it.  I mean, years ago, I was very unhappy. was in business and I was really unhappy. And I went to a career counselor and she did all this testing on me. And she said, well, first of all, you know, need to work on your own, not for anybody else. You need a tremendous amount of freedom and you need to be in the arts. And I was like, I don’t know who you’re talking about. And I can’t do that. And I went and took a job as director of corporate communications for a financial services firm.

Because I’m like, don’t know who that is. That person scares me. And I’m going to go back and do what I know, even if it’s making me miserable, because I know that world better. I can’t, this is too much. I can’t do it. And then eventually God was like, look, I’m serious. You need to go in this direction. So, you know, we follow. But I understand that these two worlds are, I can’t. I can’t make sense of these two worlds. It feels like too big of a risk and letting go of things I don’t want to let go of.

Barry

That’s so true. Yeah. There’s a book I read somewhere in there after that ,I think Morley wrote it. He says failure is succeeding at something that doesn’t matter anyway. And sometimes I’ll say success and later, and you were getting to that with your question, what was success? You know, I mean, a lot of times we kind of go, I’m headed towards success. What is it for you? I hadn’t really thought about that. I just was, I just, I’ve been taught to run at this and, so I think there’s an element of that, that’s a pretty, it’s a part of that, you know, and then anything you do. I’ve read, you know, your story and was really moved by it because I understand. I so understand. I know a lot of people are because you’ve become a hub for people like myself who go, how do I process this? How do I integrate this? How do I live this life and, be fully, you know, a part of my choices, right? I mean, cause really people say, well, I want to be successful. Really what you want to feel like is that all of this is fulfilling and it matters. And I’m doing the right things for me.

Tricia

That it’s meaningful.

It is.  For me, it’s a joy. I felt like I found my tribe in a lot of ways with songwriting.

Tricia (11:06.584)

So talk about that. I I also love that line, I ran out of brave, because, whoo, I think a lot of us ran out of brave, which is why I started a podcast. You know, just to help us. I need as much infusion of bravery from other people as anybody else does. So that’s why I’m talking to people who I can emulate and they can inspire me. So talk about how you ended up making your way into songwriting.

Barry

It’s so much credit goes to my wife, actually. So I went through the long, I called it the long journey through the desert. So about 10 years of that. And I still was curious and I was still a shadow artist. So I’m hiring a commercial graphics people and animators and videographers. And I’m in this little place. I’m helping build the company as part of that team. And we did a lot of fun, wonderful things. We helped a lot of teachers and students. We kind of were the.

the front runners on what they call STEM now for middle school and high school and grade school.

Tricia

And were you in advertising production? What were you doing?

Barry

Well, we were creating curriculum and selling the materials for the teacher. So we do video creation and all those kinds of things. But we also, you know, we, started there and, we ended up forming a joint venture with Lego and helping them relaunch their education division. And, and so in this little town of 18 or 20,000 people, it’s really 18, but we try to pretend it’s 20. We’re trying to kind of pose a little bit, but it’s a wonderful place.

Tricia (12:31.306)

Which state are you in?

Kansas, it’s a little town Kansas called Pittsburgh, Kansas, at Pitt State Gorillas. That’s the college there and it’s real near Joplin, Missouri. Really very close. That’s where we went for fancy stuff. And it was a wonderful place. Still is a wonderful place. And so, you know, I was friends with the local bands, but it was not like I was playing in a band or showing people my new songs. I’m literally hiding behind the creativity and encouraging others. Not in a mean way, but I’m just trying to help them. I want them to get out. I want them to get to do what they want. And it was, you know, I did that for quite a while. So then I meet Jennifer, my wife, and we get married. And so she marries a guy, business guy in this small town. I have a really good job in a small town, which is one of the big goals in a small town. So what happens is there’s some opportunities to do other things. There’s a question of,do  I want to continue? I’m asking those questions.

What do I want out of this? What is this worth? What am I worth to this situation? Is this where I belong? And she’s not afraid of those questions like I am. And I have this counselor who is, he’s the guy who said creativity is just an act of courage and he is working me through these things. And at some point, Jennifer says to me – I talked to a company that was kind of interested in me going somewhere and doing similar things – and she said, well, if that’s your passion, we can go there. And I laughed. And I do even now when someone laughs in a co-write, for instance, I consider it kind of a sacred moment because the world has, what you believe has burst out. Right? And so like if a songwriter goes, like an artist will say, well, we could say this and they, they’re defending or something has come out of it. So I always take those things as kind of sacred moments.

Barry  (14:28.778)

And anyway, she did that. She’s who taught me that. And, she just looked at me she goes, why do you laugh? And I said, almost verbatim, I have a great job in a small town. We’re not going to use passion as a decision maker. This is, I’m in my thirties and she goes, yes, but, but what did you want to do? What would you like to do? What did you want to do when you were young? And I said, it doesn’t matter. None of that matters. That’s what I said. I embarrassed to tell you that because of how powerful your podcasts are.

Tricia

It’s wonderful. 

Barry

She stayed on me for a while. She’s gracious in the way she does it. She’s very elegant about that, but she would not let it go. And then after a few weeks, I said, look, I wanted to be a songwriter and a producer working in the studios. I really love that part. She says, well, do you, do you write songs now? And I said, I do. When I mow the lawn and in the mornings, when I’m journaling, I will write songs sometimes.

And she knew I would still go play piano at my parents’ house. My mom can tolerate that. AndI loved music and I was always taking people to see songwriters or bands that no one had heard of and stuff like that. So she saw the tells of the shadow artists, but she had no idea. So then she was like, well, why don’t we do that? And I said, absolutely not. I’m too old. It’s too late. So I understand the person who goes, yeah, but you don’t understand. I’ve got this job and I’ve got these things.

And, she came back and said, would you take me on a cruise for our anniversary? I said, yes, which is pretty much my role. And, it’s to constantly go, yes, I think that’s great. So we went on, and she goes, it’s this one and the Nashville Songwriters Association, which is probably a surprise that there is such a thing, but there is, and they’re really great. They did a cruise. These professional writers would tell you all about it in the morning, what their job was like, how they created songs, how the business worked.

And then you’d go sunburn yourself to death or whatever in the afternoon, like normal cruises. So we went on that trip.

Tricia (16:32.098)

Where were you cruising? Like were you on a river or were you on a… Where were you?

Barry

It was out of Cape Canaveral, out of Orlando, Cape Canaveral. And it was, it was, you know, it was a very short, not high end cruise. But it was, it was amazing to be in this group and to be honest, I sat in the back of the room and I took notes and I didn’t say anything. Everyone else brought guitars and they’re playing songs and they’re doing stuff.

And I was a keyboard player at that time, you know, so I was not a guitar player. Now I did before I made a run at Nashville. Then I started taking these marathon lessons and so they, I didn’t tell anyone I was a keyboard player. I pretended I was the guitar player. It’s kind of weird, but so I was really cloaked is what I would say. I was behind a lot of layers. Like a parfait. And, so anyway, we go on the trip and the last day, two of the writers, Hugh Prestwood who lived in New York and was a phenomenal Grammy-winning writer, and then a guy, Craig Wiseman, they came over and they just said, you know, you’re probably the only person on this whole boat who hasn’t tried to give us or play us a song. And we can’t tell whether you’re good or bad. My sense was one of them voted he’s a genius and one voted he’s horrible. And I respond with I’m probably in the middle, which is what I thought. And they made it clear that my opinion was not what they were seeking. So they told me to play them a song. And I actually didn’t play a song. I gave them a little CD I had burned. And they played that. And when it got done, one of them, Craig said, don’t quit your day job, but you should start coming to Nashville. Hugh became a real helper of me, a real champion of mine, and opened the door for me to get my first deal.

Barry  (18:25.474)

So, but we started making the journey and then to be clear to anyone listening, then two years of work went into it. I was gone the first year, maybe 30 days I was in Nashville instead of Kansas and I kept, still have my day job. And then the next year I was here 60 days, but I had, I signed a publishing deal and, and I still kept my job in Kansas and my family there for the first year and several months of that deal, that’s how little I trusted the process..

Tricia

And then what made you say, I can move them out?

Barry

Jen did. So we have a daughter with special needs. She was born 18 weeks early named Catherine and, she – true story. She had a seizure. We didn’t know that. We just knew we were losing her. She was rushed into ICU and, and it’s a kind of a dramatic story, but, there was a moment where her doctor, a wonderful doctor, but a local guy I knew forever. He takes me out of the room in ICU and he says, Do you have any ideas of things we could do? And the idea that I was supposed to be the smartest guy in the room is a bad plan. If we were ever planning, you and I –  you talk about, you know, getting people, you know, it’s one of the rules of collaborations, right? Write people who are better than you. I mean, this was that moment. And so, we were able, I had an idea because I knew the nurse, he had gone out, we’d gone on a double date 10 years before, maybe 15, when we were young in high school and we didn’t know each other. We just knew the girls knew each other. And he was now the nurse in ICU. And I said, Oh, is there any thoughts on something we could do? And then I said, is there, why is her foot moving like that? And he goes, it could be a seizure. And I said, what do you  if it’s a seizure? And he said, diastat, you know, we would give that, I said, let’s do that. I’m calling the Shots. And that works.

But we, the life flight took her to St. Louis to Children’s. I drove up following that, got there in the wee hours of the morning and we sat down and Jennifer said, because I was going, we should stop this songwriter thing, it’s too risky. And Jennifer said, we need to be in a city with a children’s hospital. She needs better therapeutic alternatives. We need more education alternatives for our kids. It’s time. We’re moving to Nashville.

And, she really was the courage, cause most people tell that story of like, you know, my spouse wouldn’t support me. So I went anyway. This is not that story that – we are a strange, we are a great team. Mostly she’s a great team. So she’s really the brave one.

Tricia

She may be leading you, but you’re also taking the steps. You can’t do this – she can’t be dragging you along.

Barry

Yeah, it’s a team.

Tricia

It’s a team! But this is what’s so interesting. You started going back and forth to Nashville and when did you have Catherine? Right when you started going back and forth to Nashville?

Barry

Pretty early on, the challenge – you always say, you know, when you step towards it, normally a challenge will come. And then that did happen and it was a lot. I mean, she’s, she’s changed our lives in a lot of ways.

Tricia

Yeah. And she’s then helped you change a lot of other people’s lives. So it’s just this very interesting overlap that happened. And so I really want to talk to you about that because again, when I was telling you before we went on that I was researching you and I was going back and forth between crying my eyes out and then dancing in my kitchen. And then I cry my eyes out. Then dance in my kitchen.. Okay. Where are we now? 

Barry

That’s funny.

Tricia

I started with, you know, your first cut with, is it, pronounce name for me? Moving Oleta. Which one? 

Barry

That’s right. Oleta. Oleta is my grandmother.

Tricia

And which was particularly poignant because I just lost my mother who had, she knew who I was in her last three years, she really, like, as we say, she was sassy as ever and couldn’t remember lunch. Which was true. Totally true. But she remembered her children, which was such a blessing. I just lost her two months ago. And so listening to that song was like, you know.

Beautiful, though, but you’re working that personal experience into your creativity is what we do. But when you’re doing songwriting and you also wrote that beautiful song, God’s Will, which was shaped by in part by Catherine’s.

Barry

Directly. 

Tricia

I loved how apparently Rolling Stone said it’s one of the saddest country music songs ever written.

Barry

It was a great honor. Country music, I love honky tonk songs, but we also do great sad story songs. So was actually…

Tricia

 No kidding.

Barry

I cherish that. cherish that. It’s one of my, honestly, means so much to me.

Tricia (23:30.37)

I was like, this is great! But the storytelling in both of those songs is so beautiful. How do you incorporate these very personal experiences? How long does it take for you to integrate them into your work? Is it an immediate thing? Is it something that you wait a while? Just how does that work for you, the combining of those things?

Barry

A lot of times it does take time for me. There are occasions when, Don Schlitz is a great writer, he wrote The Gambler, he’s been a great teacher to me. He told me that his mentor told him, God gives you eight songs a year and the other 40 you have to write by yourself. And I think about that all the time. So you gotta notice when there’s a little spark and you do chase it. I take those moments as a really, I think, I look back and think I didn’t cherish them as much as I should have. So I do. This is how I process the world is through writing songs. That’s and writing in general is how I process the world. And music is a part of that. Whether I did it for a living or not, finding that as a way of processing the world became really important to me. Sometimes like a lot of people say, do you have a love song you wrote for Jen? And I have a few of those of the 1500 plus songs or whatever I’ve written. There’s a couple I can go, that is all 100 % me shooting directly that way. But I can show you my children and my wife and my grandparents and these experiences, sadness. They become sections of songs, you know, so, and for me, that’s how it mostly happens. 

Now I will say with Moving Oleta, I did not believe I was writing anything for anyone else. My dad, had helped my grandfather take my grandmother to the nursing home in Maysville, Oklahoma. And I was talking to him on the phone, because it was really hard on him and all of them. And he said, I have to say, I think this is the hardest thing your grandfather’s ever done. And so I just wrote in my little title book or my line book, moving Oleta is the hardest thing he’s done. And then I didn’t touch it.

Barry  (25:52.622)

because it was so sad to me because I love them both so much and all three of them actually. Then I was playing one night in the studio and playing by just by myself and I was thinking about them and I wrote a little chunk of that. So a couple of verses and this little moment and then, you know, I was crying. I just turned it off. Obviously I thought it’s not commercial and it’s not built right. And I just turned it off. And so a friend of mine, as I signed my publishing deal at BMG, you send in everything you’ve ever written. It’s called the Schedule A and they go through it and go, I want this one. I don’t want that one, whatever. And this guy calls me he goes, there’s a song and my friend Byron, is an engineer and helped me, a wonderful guy. He made the CD for me and he just saw all these work tapes and threw them all on the CD and it was in there. And the publisher in Nashville called and said, what is this song at the end about the old woman and the old guy? it’s Moving Oleta? And I said, I’m, I’m sorry. You, that wasn’t supposed to be on there. That’s just for me. And he said, buddy, that’s the one I love. And I was like, well, it’s not commercial. It’s not built right. It’s not structured. It’s not, it’s not, it’s, that’s very personal. 

And so for months I would come back and forth to Nashville and he would say, I need you to finish that song for me. I need you to finish. And I didn’t want to touch it. So then I did the thing where I sat and looked at it for a couple of days in Kansas. I wrote it by myself. So you’d have no one to bounce it off of. And, nothing felt true. I don’t know how else to say it. I felt like I could make up things, but, and, so I just left it alone and then, you know, how it works. I woke up one morning really, really early crying and I knew what it was and I just wrote the rest of it still didn’t believe it was commercial still thought he was crazy but I did send him the thing and and then the next thing I knew Reba, they played it for Reba. She had come to the office to hear up-tempo fun songs from the hit writers I was not I was I was so unimportant to that publishing company

that they would do an ad with all the writers names and mine didn’t make the list. They just cut, I don’t know, too many names. So they just took my name. I was not even, I’m not sure they knew I was there, right? I didn’t live in town and it’s true story. And they did two years in a row. So I just want to be clear. I was very low on the totem pole, but this guy, he, they came and they listened to some up tempos and they got to the guy, Chris Oglesby is his name. And, he’s one of those guys that I told him that first Christmas, there’s a whole lot of voices in my head telling me I can’t. And the one that says I can sounds like you. And that’s him. And you’re looking for people who just breathe air into your sails, you know, just and inspire you, you know, and not all about praising you, just inspiring you.. So he said, I know this isn’t uptempo. I know you’ve never heard of this guy, I honestly don’t care. I think you’re looking for a great song and he played it and Reba cut it and changed my life. 

And Martina was right on the heels of that because I wrote with Tom Douglas. I’m still living in Kansas and Tom is a great writer. Tom wrote, you would love Tom. He has a great documentary out called Love Tom on songwriting. It’s really cool. I think you’d enjoy it. 

Tricia

Yeah, yeah, no, I’d like that.

Barry  (29:38.668)

He’s a great writer. And so he agreed to write with me. It was one of my first co-writes with a big, you know, big time writer. And I sat all morning throwing everything I thought a country song was. I was being clever. I was flipping the title. You know what I mean? It’s like that kind of stuff. And then he said, let’s go to lunch, which is the same as saying you have failed. And, so we went to lunch. It was horrible. It was brutal. And, then he, we came back and he said, instead of sending me home, he said, why don’t we go back in and talk a little more? Is there anything else? 

And at the bottom of my list of ideas, it was Christmas Eve night. We were at the NICU in St. Louis with a brand new baby. I think she was maybe three pounds at that point. somebody said to us as we were walking into the NICU, well-intentioned and kind, said, “Well, we don’t know why this is happening, but it must be God’s will.” And I, and their intentions were very good, but it, happened to hit a theme that had caused me some trouble before. And, as we were walking in, I said to Jen, look, it’s God’s, it’s God’s Isaac. It’s God’s and I started pointing out all the other NICU kids in there. I call them the casserole dishes, but they’re warmers and ventilators and all that.. She said careful, you know, what’s that all about? You know, and so I would journal it and I could only hold her for a certain amount of minutes and then we had to put her back in. So I would journal and I just journaled, you know, all about that and my feelings on that, what I was really struggling with, why that bothered me, what I was wrestling with, I’m going to have a child with challenges that we’re going to need to address. And Jen had arranged for me to meet a little girl named Deborah on Halloween night. It just happened. She had similar issues to Catherine, but she was several years older, quite a few years older. And she showed up dressed – her Dad had made her walker into a costume, which was a bag of leaves. And I had always been a little bit afraid, not sure what to do, you know, with, with, kids with profound challenges, with real profound challenges. And so I had confessed that to Jen, I was like, you know, I, I’m going to be fine. You can count on me, but I just want you to know I may be a little awkward. but well, I met this girl fell in love immediately and she wasn’t a talker, but she was verbal. She just wasn’t using words and we became a very good friends. And I had then a beautiful picture for me to carry of my daughter. All that’s in my journal. So I say to Tom, well, I’ve been fiddling with this idea of a song about God’s will, but you make it a young kid with a lot of issues like Catherine. And I wrote some stuff about it in my journal and he said, tell me more about it. So I started talking to him about it. He started playing and I always say, this is when Tom Douglas taught me how we really write songs, right? We think it’s here’s this cool thing I thought of. Here’s this bumper sticker I took out. You know, it really wasn’t for Tom and for me, it was finding something we both felt deeply, whether it was fun or sad. I didn’t learn about fun till later. I just learned about sad at first. But pretty quickly, I just pulled out my journal out of my bag and I just tore the pages out and spread them all over. And we wrote that song and then, and then Martina cut it. And that was really the song – it got on the radio and she did it on the CMAs. And I think it won a Grammy for video or something, but that was the song that opened the door. All of a sudden we could move to Nashville and, and make a run at it. And it was still scary, but.

but it helped. So, sorry for the long story.

Tricia

No!It is a fabulous story and it’s fabulous because what you’re including in it is the, let’s go to lunch, which was, you have failed. I mean, you know, those moments when you think I have failed at this when actually you’re just, you know, just get that stuff out of the way so this other stuff can come through and having someone who guides you through that process. I mean, how fortunate that you were writing with him, just kept pushing you to talk to me, talk to me, talk to me. And we always talk about in storytelling, the more specific it becomes, the more universal it is. And so you telling that very specific experience for you is what made that story work and be so universal to so many other people. It’s really beautiful.

Tricia (34:35.918)

We’ll get back to the second half of our conversation in a moment, but right now I want to tell you about our sponsor, Interabang Books, a Dallas-based independent bookstore which was named one of the country’s top five bookstores by Publishers Weekly. They have a fabulous curated online collection and it’s just as easy to shop with them as it is with Amazon. Who doesn’t want to support an independent bookstore? Please show them some love and check them out at interabangbooks.com.

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Tricia (35:29.134)

You did move to happy because those were the ones that were making me dance around my kitchen while I was listening to you. You moved to happy and you’re writing with some amazing people. When you said that you found your tribe, talk a little bit about the importance of having your tribe. Cause you’re writing with Natalie Hemby, course, cause Deanna, her mama was so, she really wanted to make sure that…

Barry

She’s the best

Tricia

 Deanna’s the best. Deanna is the best. 

Barry

That’s such an honor.

Tricia

And you know, I’ve had the opportunity to visit with Natalie too and she’s amazing.

I got to see her perform. I was at the Kennedy Center when Amy Grant got her the Kennedy Center honor and Natalie was performing and it was a great experience to see them all together. But I know that you write with Natalie, you write with Luke Laird, you write with one more person whose name I’ve forgotten right now.

Tricia

Lori McKenna a lot. Lori McKenna. She’s like my Natalie and lawyer kind of like my sisters. Honestly,  they’re just a great gift to me.

Barry

Well, it’s an amazing team that you’re working with. So talk about that importance of, you said the word, tribe. Talk about that.

Barry

Yeah, I do believe in team and I do believe in community, but sometimes that gets heard at least in the early days. You hear that as I need an attorney. I need a so-and-so I need, and you’re kind of almost looking in a, I need to build this to lift me. And I think after a while you realize, collaboration starts for me at least to become this tribal community family. And I don’t mean to overstep. Family can have dysfunction with it, you know, they can have negative connotations, but I mean it in the sense of, honestly, I mean it in the sense of, I think a lot of co-writing for songs is really about listening. That’s what Tom was doing. He was listening for when I said something true. That’s what he was in retrospect. Now he was waiting until I said something that was really worth mine and his heart.

Right? Something that brought us joy or sadness, something that mattered to us because so often that first inclination we’ve been taught is to think it through instead of kind of let it feel for a minute, let it walk our way through it. We were looking for an answer pretty quick to the question. He wasn’t, he was willing to sit there and look around and, he knew, I think he would never say this, but I think he knew I was very nervous to be writing with him. So we’ll get some food. Now, let’s see. Now that we’re talking for real, let’s have a conversation. and I do think listening is, is writing for at least collaborating on songs and things like that. And, I  think it is a community. I mean, Natalie at the, I’m going to use Natalie as an example I didn’t ask her permission, but we’ve written great songs and she’s incredible. She’s magic. That said, she’s going to speak at the Kennedy Center for a woman who means so much to her IN Amy and all of us. So Jen and I were driving back from that we’d gone to a funeral in Kansas and we’re driving the two hours to the Kansas city airport. And Natalie texts, can you talk? And I, we just call her and she says, I’m working on what I’m going to say. And I’m, really, struggling with it. Well, she doesn’t mean she has nothing she wants to say. She’s struggling with how to put a lifetime of importance into her 45 seconds or whatever she got. SoI just said, talk to me.

And so she talked to me for a lot of the drive. And then in that case, my role was just to listen, absorb what she’s saying and then go, okay, I’m going to, excuse me, I’m going to send you a whole bunch of material. But she just needed someone to show it back to her to say, Hey, your cooking is good. And say, here’s what, because she had a willing participant in me too, because I, Amy Grant is such a big deal and Vince Gill, but Amy is a big deal to a guy like me. So I then helped her send that. And then she made it her own and did her own thing. You know, it’s a joy to get to be in the room. Sometimes we’re making something commercially, but, and we have the same attitude, but, every time I’m there, cause I can’t wait to hear what she’s going to do. I delight in what she does. And Lori McKenna is exactly the same way. I mean, Lori is so close to me too.

Tricia  (39:52.93)

Yeah. When we’re talking about collaboration, one of your greatest collaborations is with your brother, creating Luci. I mean, you created Luci because Catherine couldn’t go where she needed to go. That’s right. In her chair. 

Barry  (40:07.214)

That’s right, the chairs, yeah.

Tricia (40:19.606)

What I love is the line that you have that Luci is smart technology for the most fearless people on earth. And I love that line because it’s true that those people who are struggling with mobility issues that we can’t imagine, they have to be fearless every time they wake up in the morning just to get things done that seem so easy for the rest of us. So talk a little bit about that collaboration between you and your brother, who, and he’s a systems engineer, right?

Barry

That’s right. He’s, he’s really the smart Dean. Yeah. He’s, my sister is too, but he’s really our best. He’s our trivia guy. He’s our science guy..

Tricia

How old was Catherine when Luci became created? How old is Catherine now?

Barry

She’s 24 now and she’s a diva.

Tricia

and Luci came together when?

Barry  (40:57.408)

Well, we first started working on it, well, I guess eight years ago we had a, we built the prototype, but we didn’t tell anyone. And then seven years ago we started the company and five years ago we announced that we existed to the industry. So we had spent two years as a company with our small team developing the software and the technology and all that stuff. But it’s been, it’s the hardest thing I’ve ever done. It’s not something either of us planned to do. He was very successful. He had been, he developed a design program at this college called Colorado School of Mines. He was an in-demand systems engineer. He was, he was really

Tricia

This is your brother.

Barry

 My brother. He’s 14 years younger. So most people think he’s my son when they see him, see us together. But, but, and I was having a great time being a songwriter and producing a few things and working on stuff.  But then a friend of ours, Troy Verges, he’s a great songwriter. His mother was injured in a wheelchair accident, same wheelchair as my daughter. We couldn’t believe that we couldn’t find primitive tech. I mean, honestly, our toasters and our scales and I’ve got an aura ring, they were smarter than this wheelchair. And a lot of people don’t know those medical wheelchairs cost as much as a car. It’s really crazy, right? And so at that point, we went looking for it and we couldn’t find it. So then I called Jered.

Tricia (42:19.082)

It being something that could protect her while she’s in the chair or make her safer while she’s in the chair.

Barry

Yes. And maybe even the way to say it is it allowed her chair to live up to, we say the wheelchairs as they exist have not been living up to the potential of the people who we meet who are in the chair. They want to be connected to their apps, to their, they want to be able to ask Alexa about things about their chair. They want to be able to drive in a restaurant and know that they’ve got a little help for collision avoidance. They want to make sure that they won’t drive off their porch or drive off the opposite side of a van and become horribly injured. A lot of people aren’t aware that there’s more wheelchair injuries going to the ER than motorcycle accidents, right? It’s crazy that it exists, but it’s an invisible market. It is an invisible group,a  lot of times group of people, not all the time, and they aren’t invisible people. They are incredible people. Just like my daughter. I’ll put her up against anybody on Beatles trivia. She can identify any Beatles song and, and she’s in, she’s in these musicals. There’s a company called Backlight that does musicals every year with kids like Catherine. And then, some actors will come in from New York and Nashville and they’ll perform a musical. They just had their show. It’s phenomenal.

Tricia

Oh that’s fantastic.

Barry  (43:49.042)

But yeah, so we started, we weren’t going to start a company. We were just going to solve a problem and we did that. And then we were writing, trying to.help write IP patents and get the technology moved across. And then we realized there was a problem in that industry, if I may be so bold, that there’s a lot more money to be made in the status quo than in change. And we saw a history as we researched it of innovative things happening and not being allowed in. And we also saw that research institutions that serve that need, they didn’t have access to any data, any new technology to do the research to help with ALS patients or pediatric patients or vets. And so we decided we’re going to start a company. We’re going to build a research platform that accelerates research. We’re going to make this available to anybody who needs it. And we’re, you know, it’s a for sale and we’re going to, we’re going to do it. And now five years in, we have, I don’t know how many exact number of users, but hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of users, not quite a thousand though. I know that.

But they’ve driven users have driven over 50,000 miles. And, and what it really means is instead of going, I better not try to drive outside my house or I better not go to the restaurant or go get a job or go to the museum because I’m nervous about it or, you know, or, I get injured. So now I’m I’m without my chair. You know, even if they have a service industry call, the service calls in that industry take weeks. Well, and forgive this analogy, but it’s, like saying, I know you, you can’t use your legs for four weeks because we can’t schedule to come over and fix that. Yeah. So it’s a real problem. We feel like it’s been rewarding and a joy to see and meet so many people. About a third or a little more than a third of our, are the people that we work with are vets and a lot of them were going to be put in a wheelchair that they couldn’t self-propell, parked in a room and somebody has to move them. And now they’re able to still safely and effectively navigate their world and have that. So that’s been incredibly rewarding. And the music industry has allowed me to, I’m so grateful to my songwriting community. They’ve allowed me to continue to write. I don’t write a lot. I write 50 songs a year instead of 150 or something like that. But it’s still able to be a part of it and it’s a joy to get to be in both.

Tricia (46:13.396)

One of the things that I really loved when I was researching Luci was the test chairs you have that have the names of the original owners embroidered into them. Talk about that because it was very moving. It’s very moving.

Barry

And that really comes from Jered’s wife, Agita, in a lot of ways. They, we, we wanted to buy some chairs to work on, you know, to use for testing. And I asked a guy who was the CEO of a large company in the industry. And I said, if we wanted to buy a few of these for testing, could you help us with that? And he said, I’m not making this up. He said, if I sell you chairs, I should get to tell you what to work on and what not to work.

Tricia

Oh dear God!

Barry

That’s a status quo entrenched position, we would call that and so I said well, we’re probably not gonna do anything I’ll let you know if we do. And then we went in then that was seven years ago. We went into the dark basically is what we call it. We went we went alone for two years before we announced we existed.  So now I need chairs so we go on eBay and Craigslist actually and we look in where, he my brother’s in Denver where our engineering team and manufacturing are. And so I was looking around there and we found a couple for sale and quite a few, actually. He went and bought the first one and then he went and got the second one. And at that place, that man’s name was Bruce. I never met Bruce, but, they had, he had moved back from California to Colorado so he could watch the mountains. He had ALS and he was in the late stages of that and he wanted to look at the mountains. Now the chair arrives, he tries to drive it out on the porch where he’s going to look at the mountains and he and it doesn’t quite work. He ends up pinching his wife’s arm between the doorframe and the chair. He’s horrified. He never rides in it again. So they park it in the garage. It becomes a dog bed basically. And then he passes away and his wife is selling the chair on Craigslist. My brother and Agita, his wife meet this woman. She tells them this story and they are obviously overwhelmed by the story. And so, he paid her more than she asked. And then he asked, he said, would you mind if I wrote this story down so I could share it with my engineers and Agita said, and we could put their names on the chairs. And she said it was okay. And so from that point on, we named our test chairs and, and, and that got up. Now we have a lot of chairs from companies. They send them to us. It’s a much more open conversation, but those first,I don’t know, 18 to 23 chairs have their names stitched in the leather on the chair and the stories. And we didn’t count on this, but during the COVID world, when we all locked down, the engineers had developed affinities to certain chairs. So they were like, well, I’m going to work from home, but I’m taking Bruce or I’m taking Carol with me. And it’s very funny. We still get it. There’s a chair here that’s at one of the original named chairs is in our COO Pete, his garage. And the engineer will call him. You didn’t update. You didn’t update Patty. Why are, what are you doing? Why is Patty not plugged in? 

They have a real personal affinity. And what it really did for our engineering team was I think if it had been test chair two or just, you know, 46, it made it personal. We were now focused on the people we were here to serve. And it really gave us that, that fire to move at the speed of the need. You know, we, while people were waiting on us, things are changing. We need to move.

Tricia (49:54.166)

It’s the power of story. 

Barry

Absolutely.

Tricia

If you know the story behind something, it’s going to make a difference for you. 

Barry

It changes it. 

Tricia

When Deanna and I were talking yesterday, she said in music, you are touching people’s souls and with Luci, you’re changing people’s lives. So just, just, just so you know, and it is, that’s what you’re doing. That’s what you’re doing. 

Barry

That’s very moving.

Tricia

So I have a question for you. I asked all of my guests this. What do you need courage for right now?

Barry  (50:24.206)

That’s a great question. I think courage right now on the Luci side has to do with, you know, we’re moving into this season where we’re growing and our technology is moving. It doesn’t make any sense. It has nothing to do with wheelchairs. It has to do with the software that we’ve built applies to airports and hospitals and running the insides of that. And so we’re now in meetings with lots of people and it requires a lot of courage because you feel like, wow, this is so much bigger than I thought I was going to. I thought we were kind of reaching the end of this. We were kind of growing it and now it’s kind of getting everywhere. And, now you’re suddenly being put in this larger, different space. You’re being asked to use something that you built for very clear reasons in a new way. But I grew, you know, I was attached to this for the last seven years. So I think the transition and the change and kind of trusting that curiosity will help me with courage a little bit. I think just looking at growing the company and dealing with change that comes from that. Because you get pretty comfortable, even if it’s a hard road, you get comfortable with the road you know. And so I think that’s a big deal.

And on the music side, I used to write music. And then I switched, I changed my whole approach and became much more focused on melody and lyrics, cause I wrote with so many great musicians. There’s no point in me, I remember saying when I wrote with Vince Gill, he was on here and I loved that. But I, when I wrote with him, I said, I brought a guitar and I said, if we end up with me playing the guitar, you’ve done something horribly wrong. You get to a point where now I’m comfortable. What used to be, I wasn’t comfortable with lyrics and I became now I’m very comfortable with lyrics. And I think most people think of me in Nashville as a guy who can help with lyrics and melodies and stuff. But, now I’m trying to embrace that, the music side again, and even writing by myself, you know, once you fall into heavy collaboration, it’s harder and harder to sit alone and let it take time. And, and I think most of the Nashville writers, get to a place where solo writing becomes a real like, that’s, that’s, you’re alone with your thoughts and no one to go, you know, some of this collaboration, some of this experience of the community is, what’s that guy, Brian Andreas with StoryPeople. He had a thing where he says, there are some angels whose whole job is just to shake up your world so you don’t fall asleep. And then there are, then there are friends and their job is just to show up and tell you you’re cooking is good. And I think that’s kind of the community, right? Like some of them are like, I need to push. So those are the two areas I think right off the top of my head, I would say that’s where I need more courage.

Tricia

Thank you for that and tell me, do you feel that the music is feeding Luci and Luci is feeding the music? Do they overlap?

Barry

Early on, felt like one was bigger than the other. And then there was a season where it felt like they were colliding. They were, they were at odds with each other. I remember saying to my wife at one point, this Luci thing is really, it’s going to, I worry that, this is a true story. I don’t know how to say it. I said, this Luci thing is really becoming pretty serious. Are you going to be okay if the music community doesn’t let me be a songwriter and I’m no longer a songwriter and now I’m doing Luci and doing this all the time? And she started laughing and she goes, you really don’t remember that I did not marry a songwriter, do you? And I had forgotten that. You live in the moment you’re in. And she was like, you know, maybe you were there. So there was a collision season. And then somewhere in there, I remembered my earliest publisher, Chris Oglesby had told me when we were going through something with one of our kids and it was hard. And he just said,

Songwriting for you is not, it is not in competition with the reality of life. It is your one pure escape for a moment. It is your enjoyment. And so at that point I thought, no, they’re going, I’m choosing to make them do this and work together. And, I have a great team. My brother, course, but Pete Knapp, our COO is key to all of that. And they support that. And I find, there are moments out. don’t, wasn’t, I not thought of this since, you know, many years ago. So five years ago, right about this time, right before we announced, it was locked down, COVID lockdown, complete lockdown. And so Shepherd Center is an incredible place in Atlanta that works with spinal cord injury folks. And so they were wondering if we would come down and we needed to travel safely. We had to go from Denver to here and then there to Atlanta, and then go over to all these places. How do we do that? And we were sitting here trying to figure it out, you know, and then all of sudden I went tour buses, all the tour buses, there’s 800 tour buses parked on a hill out here because nobody’s on the road. So I called and we got some tour buses and we used those to safely navigate that. We drive down to Shepherd. And the point of the story is we go in and we’re talking about Luci and showing what we’re doing with their clinicians. But at a certain point, one of the clinicians says, Hey, there’s a guy here who’s a spinal cord injury.

It’s really in the first couple of weeks, he’s having a tough time and he’s a musician. Would you, I know you’re a songwriter, would you come hang out with him and just talk music with him so he can think about something else? And that really was the moment when I thought these are going to live together. We are going to move together and that’s going to be how we do this. And so we’ve tried to do that. Now I don’t get to write as much as I want.

But I feel that I’m able to be a really, probably a better co-writer. When you start writing 150, 200 days a year, you can start getting kind of blurry and kind of being, what’s the old Stephen Fry play where he says the priest was dead to the cloth he worked in. You can do that as, you know that, as you’re painting, you’re writing, you’re speaking, you kind of have to balance those to find that spot. And for me, I think I am now

I’m older than a lot of the kids I write with that are pop kids and country kids, but I promise you, I’m a kid at Christmas when I get there. They’re all tired and I’m like, woo, you know, and let’s write, you know, and I really enjoy being a part of that. And, and the team we have at Luci and again, Pete and Jered get most of the credit for those hires and who they are, but I will tell you they are collaborators and they are people who cared so deeply about being in this moment and doing good work, that it makes it easy to do that. So I know I’m spoiled.

Tricia

It has just been a total, total delight to have you on the show. And yourself being so brave and then the community that you’re serving, they’re so brave. It’s just been, it’s just been really wonderful to have you on the show. Thanks so much for joining us..

Barry

Thank you, it’s an honor. Thank you so much.

Tricia

Thanks.

I’m pretty sure I would listen to Barry’s stories for the rest of eternity and never retire of them. I mean, what an inspiration. And he left me with some questions to ask. What is success for you? Are you running towards something you’ve been taught to run to? Or is that where you really want to go? Are you a shadow artist? Or are you pursuing your own creative potential? And are you holding back on a creative journey because you think you’re too old or it’s too late?

You can follow Barry on Instagram @thebarrydean and learn more about him and his music at creativenationmusic.com. You can follow his company on Instagram @lucimobility and Luci is spelled L-U-C-I and learn more about them at Luci.com.

Tricia (58:40.494)

Thanks for joining us. If you have any questions, feel free to reach out to us at podcast@triciaroseburt.com. And if you like what you hear, please review our podcast, subscribe to the show, and spread the word. It really helps build our audience. For more updates, you can follow me on Instagram and LinkedIn @triciaroseburt. And if you’d like to be added to my mailing list, please go to my website triciaroseburt.com. And remember, this is no time to be timid!

No Time to Be Timid is written and produced by me, Tricia Rose Burt. Our episodes are produced and scored by Adam Arnone of Echo Finch. And our executive producers are Amy Grant, Nancy Perot, and Sage Wheeler. I’d also like to thank contributors to my Fractured Atlas Fiscal Sponsorship, which helps make this podcast happen. No Time to Be Timid is a presentation of I Will Be Good Productions.

Take Aways

• If there’s a fork in the road, take the path where you can learn something new
• Creative partnerships are key to making your best work
• If you’re challenging the status quo, be prepared for backlash
• Art has a profound ripple effect on society and individual lives
• And don’t underestimate the power of your creative work to make a difference.

Resources

• Follow Abby on Instagram @abbyepsteinxoxo
• Learn more about her work at www.thebusinessof.life
• And find out more about The Midlife Monologues on Instagram @midlifemonologues.

You can find ECHO FINCH and Adam and the Flood new album Chasing Gods everywhere you stream music but they would love if you try bandcamp too: echofinch.bandcamp.com/album/chasing-gods-2

Transcript

Abby

My name is Abby Epstein. I’m a filmmaker and theater director and a women’s health advocate. And this is No Time to Be Timid.

Tricia

Hey there, I’m Tricia Rose Burt. And in this podcast, we talk to artists who show us how to find the courage to take risks, step out of our comfort zones and use our creativity to make our work and change our world. Pay close attention because this is no time to be timid.

Hey there and welcome to the show. So as a woman raised in the South, I was discouraged to talk about several topics, money, politics, and anything, and I mean anything to do with female bodily functions. Thankfully, my guest Abby Epstein, has made her career talking about issues that would have unhinged my mother and she’s helped millions of women in the process. After starting a theater company in Chicago, she moved to New York, served as associate director of RENT on Broadway and Director of RENT in Spain and Mexico. Her next step was director of the The Vagina Monologues — its national tour, off Broadway and also in Toronto and Mexico City. That experience launched her into the role of film director and women’s health advocate, where along with Ricki Lake, she created the landmark film The Business of Being Born. She followed that success with the films Weed The People and The Business of Birth Control and now she’s back to theater, helping to launch the Midlife Monologues, which will no doubt become another movement.

Abby tells honest women’s stories from periods to menopause and everything in between. And her creative journey is filled with highs and lows. In our conversation, we talk about how she forges her courage along the way and keeps herself open to other creative possibilities. Some takeaways from our visit: If there’s a fork in the road, take the path where you can learn something new; creative partnerships are key to making your best work; if you’re challenging the status quo, be prepared for backlash; and don’t underestimate the power of your creative work to make a difference. Abby inspires us all to be fearless no matter where we are in life. I’m so glad you’re joining us.

Tricia

Hey, Abby, thank you so much for joining the show. 

Abby

My pleasure.

Tricia

So, okay, so I have to tell you that I did a story on the Moth stage where I am literally saying how I was raised by women who could not say the words period or pregnant. And that the only way I found out about what was happening with my body was those, the movies we saw in Girl Scouts, you know?

And that I was pretty sure the only reason why I saw the movies is because my troop leader was from Wisconsin. If you listen to your friend and mine, Kim Williams Paisley, her episode, she’s talking about how her mother could not talk about her having her period and her father was screaming through the bathroom door about how she should put a Tampax in. So I want to know what environment were you raised in where you can so openly talk about, I mean, you’ve worked on The Vagina Monologues, you’ve worked on The Business of Being Born, you’ve worked on The Business of Birth Bontrol, like, you’re a women’s health advocate. Were you talking about this comfortably with your mother growing up? How’d you get to do this so fluently?

Abby

No, I was not talking about this fluently with my mother at all. I don’t think from what Kimberly shared as her experience, I don’t think, my mother wasn’t as uncomfortable or closed off. I remember my mother did say that, you know, her mother had kind of thrown a book at her and that was all she got. I think she, you know, made a little more effort. But no, I would not say I grew up in this open household where people were like openly talking about women’s reproductive features. No. I would say that pretty kind of typical raised by boomers who were children of immigrants and was definitely like minimal amount of information required.

Tricia

Whatever you need.

Abby

Minimal.

Tricia

 Absolutely. Where did you grow up? Did you grow up in Chicago?

Abby

No, I grew up also like Kim very close by in Westchester in New York. So a little bit in New York City when I was younger and then in Westchester.

Tricia

Okay, so it isn’t just a Southern experience. It is something that goes across the board when it comes to talking about things that matter and that we should know about, but it takes a while to get there. You started your own theater company in Chicago. You were there for what? Over a decade and then moved to New York because of Rent and then you moved into The Vagina Monologues. You have an idea to do a film about documenting the global impact that it’s making. You have a filmmaker that’s selected to do it. They can’t do it. Eve Ensler looks at you and says, you do it. Since this show is called No Time to Be Timid, I want to ask you, what did that feel like? Because while you had directed theater, you had never directed a film before. And so what did that feel like?

Abby

It’s true and I think when I proposed the idea of making the documentary to Eve Ensler at that time, it was really honestly because I knew this was a story that needed to be told and we had been traveling the world together seeing all of these incredible productions and I had no inkling you know that I would ever be qualified enough or knew what I was doing to actually like direct this movie.

And I had a little bit of experience when I was out in LA, like, you know, of shadowing on some TV sets, but those were like single camera comedies. I mean, it was very, very different. And honestly, the weirdest thing was at that same time, I was working on the Vagina Monologues. And I remember my agent at the time had called me and said, you know, these producers, they just saw your production of Rent in Mexico City, and they want you to take over Mamma Mia. So they want you to be like the global director and, you know, sort of take Mamma Mia like all over the world and be the resident director. And so that had happened. And then this documentary filmmaker dropped out of the V-Day movie. And it was this like real fork in the road for me.

You know, because I thought, wow, okay. And I honestly, it was not a difficult decision at all, Tricia. It was just like, I’m going to go the road less traveled. I’m going to go down the fork that feels like new and scary and risky. And I’ll never forget my agent, he just said, do you understand how much money this could be over the long haul? Like he just was sort of shocked, you know, that I was turning my nose, but I felt that at that moment in time, I just felt like creatively, I knew how to take a Broadway show and export it. You know, I knew how to do that and I was good at it. And I really felt like this other opportunity, honestly, it just felt so compelling. Like, wait a minute, I get to travel to 14 countries and document violence against women. And I felt like, my God, I’m gonna get like an MFA in women’s studies and filmmaking for free. Or I’m gonna get paid to get an MFA in women’s studies and filmmaking. And I don’t know, I just thought, like, I’ll figure it out, it’s storytelling. I can’t say the process was smooth.

Tricia

Yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, you’d never done it before, so.

Abby

Never done it before, trial by fire. There was definitely a lot of mistakes, a lot of drama, you know, but at the end of the day, like three years later, there we were. I was standing next to Jane Fonda and Sally Field at the Sundance Film Festival, you know, premiering this documentary. Yeah. And it was, you know, I can’t say it turned out to be like the most incredible documentary ever made. I mean, I’m sure I would look back on it now and think there was a lot of sophomoric mistakes, but I think ultimately the heart was there, right? Which is that I had this passion to tell this story. Really, honestly, and I think, you don’t know how those experiences are gonna set you up, right, for the next thing. And that’s sort of what happened is because after we premiered that film, I connected with my friend, Ricki Lake, who I had met directing her in the Vagina Monologues. And Ricki said, I wanna do a project about childbirth and I don’t know if it’s a book or a movie. And I was like, well, I now know how to make a documentary film. So tell me about this. And I had that one experience under my belt, which really led me into making The Business of Being Born with Ricki, which I never would have been able to execute at the level. that we did, you know, had I not had that first rough start, you know.

Tricia

First of all, it’s just such a fabulous story to say there was a fork in the road and one had a bunch of money and one had the curiosity and the passion and the thing that was going to set you up. Very brave to do that. So, but what was one of the takeaways of the biggest thing you learned in that first trial by fire experience?

Abby

There’s only so much you could shoot. I mean, we definitely way overshot, you know, and women like to talk and women like to tell stories. And I was very generous with, you know, putting the camera on everybody and not kind of understanding how little was going to be able to fit into an 85 minute movie. But I think, you know, from a work perspective, I think I learned that you could, I think, really do anything if you have a team of people that you trust. And on that movie, I did not have that because I was stepping into something very last minute. And so the other people who’d been hired, the production company, the producer, the line producer, the camera operators, you know, I think they kind of saw me as like an easy target because I wouldn’t know what’s acceptable or not acceptable. So I think that ultimately, you know, there were people who took advantage of that situation to maybe like line their pockets a bit, you know. People always tend to do that, but that, I think that was like the biggest lesson is that it was almost like, I felt like at the end of the day, we were able to kind of make a pretty good movie in spite of these other people who weren’t doing their jobs all that well. And that’s, I think, such a big lesson. It’s just whoever you’re going to go into a creative project with, it is just so important that everybody has each other’s backs, you know?

Tricia

Yeah. Well, you’ve had this creative partnership with Ricki for a long time now. And I was going to ask you about the importance of a creative partnership, because that is a rarity to have a partnership for that long and to be able to do the things that you all have done. Talk about how that works for you and the benefits of having that kind of partnership.

Abby

Yeah, you know, and I would say for Ricki and I, it is rare, it is very, very rare to have that kind of partnership. And I think as two women who are also, you know, very, very, very close friends, it’s incredibly hard. And I have to say, it’s like over 20 years now, you know, we really have never ever had any kind of falling out over anything. I think we both know each other’s strengths and weaknesses. We know what the other does well. She is very, very good at being the public face, representing projects in the media and doing media and going on television to promote and talk about projects and putting herself out there in that way. And I am much better at doing more of the heavy lifting behind the scenes. And we just have a way of working together where it’s, you know, we’re both very, very low ego, you know, around most of it. And, you know, she’s like, what do need me to do? Sometimes the things we have to do, like raising money and stuff like that it’s not fun. You know, I mean, a lot of that is not fun. It’s a lot of work. We have a real spirit around us of like making it fun and adventurous, you know, and I think for better or for worse, cause I can’t say we, you know, made money making these documentaries. But we, I know, I think we both do have sort of an inner guide, like an inner intuitiveness where we can put sort of like passion before logic and just be like, yes, yes, yes, you know, we have to do this.

Tricia

Well, I have created a manifesto, the No Time to Be Timid manifesto. And one of the things that is in it is logic can work against you. For example, the choice you made between doing Mamma Mia and doing, you know, the logical thing would have been, but that wasn’t the thing that was going to work. That didn’t make any sense for you. So, you’re not making a ton of money on these documentaries, but you have started, you know, a movement or two. Another one of the manifesto principles is creativity is not a frivolous pursuit. Because so often, creativity feels like the lesser skill, you know, there’s logic matters and, know, analysis, all that stuff. But it is the creative efforts that are usually the sparks for the things that change the world, basically. How does it feel when you look at an impact of a film like The Business of Being Born and no one knew what a doula was before that? Does that balance out the fact that you aren’t driving around in a snazzy car because you made that movie? And how does that inform the choices that you make moving forward?

Abby

With The Business of Being Born, it’s extremely hard to take in the impact of that movie. And I don’t know that we’ll ever fully be able to actually have any kind of like metric to see the impact, which is a shame. Even just now, a couple of weeks ago on Mother’s Day, we did a post on social media and boom, boom, boom, there are all the DMs, you know, saying, this movie changed my life. It changed my life. It changed my life over and over and over. Either somebody who became a birth worker because of the movie or their birth took a certain direction because of the movie and thus their life was changed by that. And we would just be sitting on an airplane and the flight attendant would come over, kneel down next to us, and before she could even start talking, she would start crying. And we would just be like, we know the film. That would happen like over and over and over and over. And it’s super interesting because I think what I’ve learned working on Vagina Monologues and then working on Business of Being Born is that sadly, I would say a lot of times the sort of creative contributions by women tend to be really undervalued, really overlooked. I would say maybe like, 10 years ago, there’s a film critic named Owen Gleiberman, and he wrote a blog post in Entertainment Weekly. And it was one of the only like critical pieces that actually captured this. And he said, this is one of the few documentaries that deserves to be called revolutionary. And it didn’t win any awards and it didn’t get on the Oscar shortlist. And it’s not, you know, sung about, but it’s this underground manifesto that has changed, you know, more lives than any movie. And he said, you don’t look at An Inconvenient Truth and maybe the impact lasts, what, six months, a year. You know, people forget An Inconvenient Truth. They move on to the next climate or whatever, but this movie is still, you know, being passed around to expectant parents. And so it was such a rewarding little piece that he wrote because you will oftentimes feel that just mainstream media and press, they couldn’t be bothered with talking about something as trivial as childbirth. 

Tricia

Very trivial.

Abby

I think we are still constantly working to keep the movie out there, keep the movie accessible.

You know, Netflix owned it for 15 years, but at some point just dropped it off their streamer. Why? No idea. People started writing to us. We can’t find the movie anymore. You know, like we don’t own it. You know, I mean, we’ve since gotten the rights back.

Tricia

Good, okay, yeah. Even still, mean, on a much smaller scale, I told a story for The Moth years ago called How to Draw a Nekkid Man. And it was all about my journey from being a corporate executive to becoming an artist, right? And I will still get emails from people that will, and that was in 2011. I had one woman, she was from Australia saying I had a soul crushing government job and now I became a birth photographer after I, you know, so you just have all of us as artists have no idea the ripple effect of the work we do when we put it, we just don’t know. We hope people are seeing it. They probably are. We may never know, but they’re the seeds that get planted all along the way that on some level has to just, we just have to trust that and keep making more stuff.

So I was raised never to draw attention to myself. And I was, you know, also supposed to be a very good girl. mean, I can remember I was walking in some march. It was after the Parkland shooting. I was on the phone with my mother and I was like, I have to go. I’m going to go march at the Capitol. And she was like, oh my God, just be good and mind your manners. I mean, you know, really, I was 57. It just undid her the idea of me being out there in any way. So you’ve gotten pushback about The Business of Being Born, about The Business of Birth Control. You’ve gotten pushback from people. I mean, are you a people pleaser? And did it upset you when people were going, I don’t like this film and you’re doing the wrong thing? Like there are people out there going, I’d like to say this, but I’m afraid people will be mad at me. How does that factor into your choice and does it? And did you know you were gonna get the backlash that you got?

Abby

It’s a really great question, Tricia. And I do think that when I was editing The Business of Being Born, which sort of fell at the same time as my first child was born, I absolutely felt that.  Especially around the medical establishment, because I think that we are all sort of raised with that like white coat syndrome. Like you really don’t push back against doctors because they are like God-like in their knowledge and you don’t question your doctor and you don’t question these big, powerful medical agencies. So it was feeling scary. And I felt like when we started cutting The Business of Being Born, the idea was like, we’re gonna show these alternatives, but we’re not gonna be Michael Moore about it. We’re not gonna be like in your face and blah, blah, blah. Then I started coming into the editing room and my editor, Madeleine Gavin, who has since gone on and now is like a brilliant director in her own right, brilliant editor. But she was editing these pieces that were pretty controversial. Like they were punching back. I do remember the first couple times I saw those clips that she cut together, I did kind of go, oh my God, we’re gonna put this out here? Like we’re gonna get in so much trouble.

But then it was sort of like, because she is so smart and such a good editor, and she was making a compelling argument, you know, she wasn’t just trying to be provocative. She was building a compelling argument, right? Which is what good editors do, documentary editors. I just kind of got comfortable with it, you know, little by little by little. And then the first private screening we did, we did a sneak preview screening in New York for friends and family. And I remember Eve Ensler came and she kind of took me aside in the lobby after and she said, I’m gonna tell you something right now. She said, those doctors are gonna come after you and they are not gonna say the word. Cause I don’t know how much cursing you like on your podcast, but she was like, they are mother effers. And you know, their lobbies are very tough. the way, and it hit me for the first time after that preview screening. Like, I think that Ricki and I were blessed just to be so ignorant. And we just thought we were making a movie to empower women. We were not making a movie because we were angry at doctors or had a bone to pick with the medical system. Some people do. Some people make documentaries because they’ve been wronged and they’re angry or that was not our agenda.

So for us, it was shocking in the beginning. And I will say it took 10 years for the times to catch up with us, right? So it took 10 years for the wheel to turn a bit. And then suddenly hospitals were like, oh, come tour our new birthing center and you know. Come be like, come let us vet you. And suddenly Ricki’s getting awards like Mother of the Year, this hospital, you know, and it’s like, it was scary. It was not pretty in the beginning. It really wasn’t pretty. We were, you know, sometimes unexpectedly attacked on talk shows and television interviews. You know, there was something about this home birth thing and the fact that Ricki had her baby at home that was so threatening.

Abby

It’s not like today where any celebrity could go on Good Morning America and talk about their home birth. It wasn’t like that. It was like people had to immediately attack her and say, well, you we just have to say that, you know, this is frowned upon by the AMA and, know, you put your baby’s life in danger, whatever, all the things that their advertisers, you know, told them to say. It was tough.

Tricia

Well, you know what, fair play to you for weathering it. And you weather it long enough and you get to the other side of it, you know, and it’s like, okay, and people catch up with you. You know, it was great that you were ignorant that that would happen because you may have made different choices if you knew it was coming. Even for me, do I have, you know, there’s been, I mean, I’ve talked about my depression on stage. I’ve talked about different things on stage. It’s like, if I say this out loud, what’s going to happen there? You know, and what normally happens is at the very least starts conversation. And I think that’s really what we all want to do is just have conversation that gets started.

Tricia

We’ll get back to the second half of our conversation in a moment. But right now, I want to tell you about our sponsor, Interabang Books, a Dallas-based independent bookstore, which was named one of the country’s top five bookstores by Publishers Weekly. They have a fabulous curated online collection, and it’s just as easy to shop with them as it is with Amazon. Who doesn’t want to support an independent bookstore? Please show them some love and check them out at interabangbooks.com.

That’s Interabang, I-N-T-E-R-A-B-A-N-G, Books.com.

Tricia

You’re now a very natural extension of your work, because I just love this arc that you’ve got around women and the work that you’re doing. But you’re now working on this new project called Midlife Monologues. And what is also interesting is, you started in theater, all this time in film, back to theater. Tell me about what the project is, and then we’ll ask you some more specific questions around what it feels like to be navigating this space now. So tell us about the project.

Abby

I was on a panel in LA last week and it sort of occurred to me during the panel that my entry into this sort of midlife movement is very similar to my entry into the childbirth movement. You know, where I was just really unaware. When Ricki was telling me about midwives and home births, I’d never been pregnant. And I had a totally antiquated idea of childbirth, you know, at that time.

I just thought it was like a medical procedure that you went in and did. I didn’t understand anything about like how it intersects with feminism or that there was a spiritual journey around it, like none of that. And it was kind of the same thing here where, my midlife has not been disruptive in a physical way where a lot of women, you know, have a lot of hormonal shifts and they have hot flashes and mood issues and you know, it can be a huge disruption for a lot of women, like falling off a cliff hormonally. 

Tricia

You haven’t had that?

Abby

I haven’t had that, you when I left my partner, I left my, you know, father of my children at 44. That was my midlife moment. I have got to change something, right? Like this is not working. I don’t want to raise kids in this family the way it is. I need to get out of this, right? That was the on-ramp, right? And then, you know, 50 was like amazing for me. It felt very like second spring, but I was approached by this amazing actress, Constance Zimmer, who did have the falling off the cliff experience and had this idea about creating some kind of a narrative, a play, a Vagina Monologues inspired play. So through a mutual friend, we were connected.

And we started developing this midlife monologues idea together and holding circles and story shares and gathering stories for the piece. And was so it was really like similar to the situation with Ricki where with Constance, who’s my partner in this, it’s like, she really opened the door to me. And I was then able to sit in those circles and story shares and feel what was happening and the disconnect. I knew about the disconnect between women’s reproductive arcs and the medical system. That I knew. But I didn’t know in the menopause space, it’s very complicated. And I actually am just finishing my certification to be a midlife and menopause coach. And the reason I did that, 

Tricia

Oh, wow!

Abby

Yeah, I did a six month, very intensive, certification program and I did it not necessarily because I, I don’t know if I’m going to open a practice at the end of it, but I wanted to understand the neuroscience, the hormonal science, all the noise out there, you know, all the people selling this and selling that – I wanted to understand. So now it’s like I have this very deeply nuanced picture of all the different paths that one can take at midlife and such a deep understanding of the physical underpinnings, but also now the sort of emotional and spiritual, I would say transformations that happen. So it was sort of this beautiful club that I didn’t know I wanted to be a part of, right?

Tricia

Oh, yeah.

Abby

It was very much like motherhood, you know, when I started The Business of Being Born I was not really interested in being pregnant or being a mom, you know, one day. And then it just seemed to happen during the filming of that movie. So it’s very similar. And so we have been writing, we’re connected with a Broadway producer who’s helping us shepherd this along. And then since we started, we’ve put together this creative community behind the project, which is about 75 actresses, writers, showrunners, directors. We have some medical professionals, some entrepreneurs, you know, really women from all walks of life behind this. And now we’re realizing it’s so much bigger than this play. So now we’ve joined forces with the documentary that was in the works called Her Second Act. And so we’ve, we’ve jumped onto that. So now we’ve got actually a documentary, a play, and kind of a larger community-based movement that we’re building through the storytelling. And we’re trying to figure out, you know, how, what that looks like in the world, what shape that takes. It’s been such a nourishing artistic journey because it’s, you know, similar to The Business of Being Born. It’s like I’m in the same stage of life.

Tricia

Yeah. For me, mean, again, I’m 64 and I can remember I was 48. And again, as I mentioned earlier, was raised never to draw attention to myself. And I was like, you know, somebody’s got to draw attention to themselves. It really might as well be me. So that’s when I started performing. You know, was like there was something in me that was like, what? I don’t need to really wait around for permission anymore. I think we just need to get this done. And I didn’t have children. And so spent most of my 40s with people saying, when are you going to have children? And so when, I mean, I was running like a horse to the barn for 50. Like, can we just get this over with, please? Because, do you remember More magazine? Do you remember More magazine?

Abby

Yeah, of course.

Tricia

There was a, they had a, they had an article that was Maverick Mommies, Women Having Children Over 50. I was like, someone make this stop. Please make it stop. I mean, I really feel for me, my most creative time has been in my 50s. And then I started this podcast at 62. With the name No Time to be Timid purposefully. You know, this is time, people. This is time. I mean, it’s so it’s very exciting. That’s why when was, Kim was telling me about the project and I was, you know, just reading at every actress on the Instagram and reading as much as I could about it. It’s like, heck yeah. For me, it’s been an incredibly important liberating time. I know there’s others like me with children, without children, whatever, who are like, whoo, we are just past the part of having to give a shit. You know, I just, let’s just. 

Abby

It’s so freeing.

Tricia

It’s wildly freeing. It’s wildly freeing. And it comes with the lever of gravitas too. I mean, not to be bossy, but to be able to step into our authority, because I’m not just asking for permission anymore. I’m just really not.

Abby

One of the books that I love that we read for research among a million things is Dr. Louann Brizendine’s book. She had written a book when I was doing The Business of Being Born called The Female Brain, which was a very popular book at the time. And now her latest book is called The Upgrade. That is what it’s about. You have to read it, Tricia. It’s so brilliant. But she really talks about the neuroscience of why, like why, you know, at 48, you could suddenly click into this, you know, now or never thing, because there’s neuroscience behind it. There’s actual rewiring of the brain. 

Tricia

Yeah, I’d really like to read that. 

Abby

You’d love it.

Tricia

What I find so fascinating about you, Abby, is the level of research that you are doing for each of your projects and how much you immerse yourself. It’s what we have to do. I mean, artists on some level end up being scholars in areas because if you want to do it well, if you want to do it well, you read as much as you can so that you have the context of it. You know, and so I’ve just, it’s noticeable, your curiosity and the intellect that you’re bringing to these projects. I passion matters. And when it’s paired, you know, with curiosity and intellect, it makes it that much more powerful. You know, I think that’s where your work has been so powerful. Now I’m going to ask you a question that I ask all of my guests, which is, what do you need courage for now?

Abby

That’s such a good question. You know, especially with this new project with The Midlife Monologues movement, I think I need courage, you know, for us to think much bigger than I’ve been thinking in the past. Again, I can be very tenacious. Like if I need to raise money for a film I believe in, I can make a cold call and get $100,000 out of a company. I’ve done it before. But it stays kind of small because then it’s sort of like, okay, you make the movie, that movie comes out, some people see it. But we’re talking about like what we wanna do here is a real groundswell, like a real cultural shift in how people think about the narrative of aging, the narrative of midlife, and that’s big. That’s really, really big. And so I think, you know, what I need the courage for is not to ask for $100,000, to ask for the millions of dollars and say, you know, we’re building something here, big, and it’s gonna have media, community, it’s gonna bring women together. It’s gonna tell the kind of stories that we are not hearing and not seeing reflected right now, you know, in TV and film. So I need the courage, I think, to step up and own this in a bigger way, I think, like from a business perspective, in addition to the creative, to take up the space.

Tricia

Taking up the space, It used to be hard for me and it’s getting a whole lot easier. A whole lot easier. Abby, I’m just so tickled you were on the show. Thank you so much for coming. You have to keep us posted on everything that’s going on and we’ll put all the information for your projects in the show notes. Yeah, thank you so much for dropping by.

Abby

You’re so welcome, Tricia. It’s a pleasure. Pleasure to talk to you. I love this topic.

Tricia

Thanks, thanks.

Tricia 

Abby’s encouraging me to think and dream big and she gave me a few other things to think about. What’s motivating you these days? Financial security or creative curiosity? There’s no judgment in that question. Sometimes there can be different seasons where one is more important than the other. Consider partnering with someone who can help you bring your dreams to life and don’t be afraid to put your work out there because it might challenge the status quo. Your voice is needed. You can follow Abby on Instagram @abbyepsteinxoxo, learn more about her at www.thebusinessof.life and check out her newest project, The Midlife Monologues, on Instagram @midlifemonologues. Here on the home front, you can watch my story, How to Act Like a Lady on my website or on YouTube or listen to it at themoth.org. And my producer Adam Arnone, who releases music under Adam and the Flood just released a new album on June 20th called Chasing Gods. You can find it anywhere you listen to music. Check it out.

Tricia

Thanks for joining us. If you have any questions, feel free to reach out to us at podcast@triciaroseburt.com. And if you like what you hear, please review our podcast, subscribe to the show, and spread the word! It really helps build our audience. For more updates, you can follow me on instagram and LinkedIn @triciaroseburt. And if you’d like to be added to my mailing list, please go to my website triciaroseburt.com. And remember, this is no time to be timid.

No Time to Be Timid is written and produced by me, Tricia Rose Burt. Our episodes are produced and scored by Adam Arnone of Echo Finch. And our executive producers are Amy Grant, Nancy Perot, and Sage Wheeler. I’d also like to thank contributors to my Fractured Atlas Fiscal Sponsorship, which helps make this podcast happen. No Time to Be Timid is a presentation of I Will Be Good Productions.

Take Aways

• your childhood interests will likely turn out to be your adult passions 
• no one will have as much excitement for your project as you do, so take ownership of it if you want it done well
• you may feel overwhelmed pushing yourself out of your comfort zone, but you’ll also feel alive
• and either go big or go home.

Resources

• Follow Carolyn Blank Cary on Instagram @cbc233 or at @carolyncooksandsocanyou — DM her if you’d like a copy of her cookbook!
• Learn more about Beth Huddeston and download her firstSounds app at firstSounds.com
• And discover Amy Meyers and her services at mrsmeyersetiquette.com.

Transcript

Amy (00:04.366)

I’m Amy Meyers of Mrs. Meyers Etiquette.

Carolyn

Hi, I’m Carolyn Blank Cary, author of “Carolyn Cooks And So Can You!”

Beth

I’m Beth Huddleston, creator of the firstSounds app.

This is no time to be timid.

Tricia (00:33.582)

Hey there, I’m Tricia Rose Burt, and in this podcast, we talk to artists who show us how to find the courage to take risks, step out of our comfort zones, and use our creativity to make our work and change our world. Pay close attention, because this is no time to be timid.

Hey there and welcome to the show. We’re halfway through our season. And so far, we’ve heard from an actress and bestselling author, a former mayor, another bestselling author and visual artist, an award-winning chef, and a country music icon. In this episode, we’re gonna do something a little different and talk to, well, more regular folks, folks like you and me, who are doing amazingly creative things on a smaller scale. At least for now, it’s smaller, but no less important.

I’ve invited three women on the show who also happen to be my dear friends. They don’t know each other, but I’ve known them for years. And in this past year, I’ve watched each of them explode with creativity. A lifelong artist, Carolyn Blank Cary published a cookbook of family recipes, which also turned out to be a mini memoir, her life told in food. Beth Huddleston, who’s built a career in international affairs, learned how to develop an app and relaunched her 30-year-old passion project, firstSounds, which introduces infants and toddlers to the sounds of languages and music from around the world. And Amy Meyers pivoted from a lifetime of executive recruiting and political consulting to start Mrs. Meyers Etiquette. She’s a certified etiquette trainer, helping others develop the skills and confidence they need to shine in their professional and personal lives.

All of these women are over 60, which on its own is inspirational, but more importantly, they’re using their creativity for connection, to create a world where people are kinder to one another, understand one another, and break bread with one another.

Some takeaways from our conversation include your childhood interest will likely turn out to be your adult passions. No one will have as much excitement for your project as you do, so take ownership of it if you want it done well. You may feel overwhelmed pushing yourself out of your comfort zone but you’ll also feel alive. And either go big or go home.

These women exemplify the phrase, this is no time to be timid. It’s a terrific conversation and I’m so glad you’re joining us.

Well, hello everybody. It’s so good to have you on the show. I’m so excited to see you. It’s Amy Carolyn. Hello.

Amy

Hello, Tricia, thanks for having us.

Carolyn

Hello, Tricia.

Tricia

And Beth, how are you?

Beth (03:19.414)

I’m doing great, can’t wait to jump right in.

Tricia

Well, I’m so excited you’re here. I’m gonna start by asking, how long have you had this idea in your head? Beth, I’ll start with you just because I know a little bit about what you’ve been up to. So how long have you had the idea of firstSounds in your head?

Beth

I have had this idea of firstSounds in my head for probably close to 30 plus years and it has been, had different lives and I think one of your manifestos about no idea, no creative venture goes, you know, is wasted and I’ve definitely felt that with firstSounds. It’s been a long journey and I feel like I’ve entered the new age with it.

Tricia

Because you originally started doing it for your own children and now you’re doing it for your grandchildren.

Beth

That’s a little scary when you put it into that context. But yes, that is absolutely true. I had the idea of introducing language and music to my children. And I came out with a version of it that was cassette tapes and stuffing it in a vinyl cover and all of the things you did with cassette tapes. And now it’s entered the new age as an app. So yes, it’s been a long time in coming a long transitional birthing process, so to speak.

Tricia

Okay, and Carolyn, how about you? When did you get the idea in your head for the cookbook?

Carolyn

November of 22. My children, we ate Thanksgiving away from the house. And they were just like, okay, no. I mean, we cannot not have your food, our food. And what are we gonna do? I mean, they were just like panicked. And my son was really like, write them down, write the recipes down. And you know, and then I was like, okay, I’ll write them down. And then I thought, you know, I’m gonna do a book. I’m gonna do a cookbook. And then it just…really morphed into this bigger, much bigger thing that I thought I was doing through 23 and then birthed in 24..

Tricia

So what did you think it was going to be at first? Just like a couple of handwritten recipes so your kids can make Thanksgiving dinner?

Carolyn

Yeah like a little pamphlet, stapled, know, nothing going to a printing. And then it became obvious when I started talking about it with my friend who is a printer. And she’s a, yes, we can do it. You know, she’s just always been very inspirational with me. I mean, I would come to her and go, what do you think about blah, blah, blah? And she’s like, absolutely, we’ll do X, Y, and Z. I mean, as children, we were always contemplating. Well, how can we get this done? You know, so anyway, she was like, oh, absolutely, we can do it. And I wanted a pamphlet. I wanted a spiral, you know, something that a cook actually would use. I did not want a book that looked like a coffee table book with photographs all in it, you know? And so I knew I had this idea and then it became go big or, you know, go home. And I literally just got every recipe that I’ve ever made a million times and put it in the book. And then I contacted friends and family and were like, number one recipe that you, your signature recipe I need for the book. And they did it.

Tricia

Okay, that’s fantastic. Okay, Amy, how about you? When did you get your idea?

Amy

I think almost two years ago, I’d been casting about for really what God wanted me to do next. And I saw an ad on Instagram, one spot left in a train-the-trainer etiquette class, probably a marketing ploy, and I signed up.

Tricia

Because I love the pivot. Tell them what you did before you started Mrs. Meyer’s etiquette.

Amy

Well, I had a couple of careers. I was a headhunter for an executive. I did executive search. I did consulting for leadership consulting for nonprofits. And then my last iteration was I ran a political consulting firm. We did high dollar, well, all dollar fundraising for candidates and organizations nationally.

Tricia (07:31.022)

And now she’s running an etiquette service.

Amy

Yeah, very different from the kind of copy we used to write for. My messaging is very different than it used to be.

Tricia

But I like again that I do that flexibility, the agility of saying, okay, this is what I’ve done and now I’m gonna use and just come up with something completely different. One of the things, one of the reasons why I wanted all of y’all to be on the show, selfishly is because you’re all women over 60. Apparently we’re supposed to be invisible after 60, but it does not look like this crew is gonna do that. And so the more people I can, you know, more of you I can put out there, the better. But also I wanted to have y’all on the show because, as I even mentioned at the top of show, all of your creativity is around connecting people in either a more civilized way or a more creative way. And so I want to talk a little bit about why do you think what you’re doing is important?

Amy

You know, we have this epidemic of loneliness and isolation the Surgeon General decreed it a couple of years ago, that you see increased political polarization. Arthur Brooks, who used to run the American Enterprise Institute, wrote a book, talks about how it used to be we would be friends with people of different political parties, different religions, and now we tend to just be with people who think like us. It’s not, not just probably not us, but as a country. And I think by teaching manners and through manners, etiquette, it’s a way of connecting people. You’re teaching kindness. I hope I’m training kindness and consideration and respect for our fellow man and listening skills and a desire to know and understand the other.

Tricai

I want you to just quickly though talk about how weird your social media experience has been? Okay, because apparently there is a hunger for this is the reason why I’m pointing this out.

Amy (09:31.436)

My daughter helps me with this business. I couldn’t really do it without her. And she suggested we do a Mrs. Meyers Etiquette Instagram as a way to promote in person or virtual training. And I had 250 followers. So we just started in the fall, probably November, right? I had 250 followers on Christmas Eve. I did a video, a reel on Instagram – when do you put your napkin in your lap? That has had 2 million views, it went viral and I now have almost, I’ll probably hit 79,000 followers today, which makes me a micro influencer working towards actual influencer, I guess. Now, where that’s gonna go or how to monetize it, we’re still figuring out. It’s fabulous. I mean, people comment, people send me DMs. You know, I hear about my stepchild’s getting married, should I invite my siblings? My kids, how much money, know, the bride’s family is putting in this much, how much should I put in? How do I kindly tell my son-in-law not to wear his baseball cap at the table? I spend a lot of time writing people back, and I love it.

Tricia

Well, but I think what’s interesting though, it’s just that there’s so much interest in being nice, behaving well, behaving in a civilized way. And I just think it’s really interesting that it’s gotten this much traction that people – I thought nobody cared anymore. And so it’s really interesting that it’s actually gotten some real traction. And also it was hysterical to say she had 250 on Christmas morning and then I was like, I’m just watching this thing snowball over the napkin video.

Amy

When you put the napkin in the lap. And the other interesting thing, I was just looking at the numbers the other day is the female followers tend to be older, 45 to 75. The men are younger. Oh, interesting. And I don’t know, you know, that I think is interesting too.

Tricia (11:37.528)

Well, it’s nice to know there’s men that are following you. 

Amy

Oh yeah, they write to me all the time. 

Tricia

And so Carolyn, why do you think it’s important to have these recipes saved, because now you’re in your second printing of the cookbook. Right. And so again, this is getting traction. People are really, you know, excited about what you’re putting out there. What do think all the energy is about around your cookbook?

Carolyn

I found out early on in my life that the only real thing that you have is the love in your heart. And everything else is just a bunch of smoke and mirrors. And when I started putting this together, it was out of love for my family and my friends that I did what I did, which was cook stuff, you know, food. I mean, I had originally was an artist and my children were little. And I was like, touch my paints again and I’m going to bend your fingers back. I mean, it was not, I was not a nice mommy. You know, and I was like, yeah, this is not good. You know, so I need a way to create and then we can eat it, you know, and everybody, I can teach them and we can just that has always been a soulful place in my childhood as well. Food was a big deal. So, and being together and eating and yum, yum, yum, you know, so when I put this thing together, it was from the heart completely and to bring joy. There is a lack of joy, I believe. You know, people are, it’s just a different culture right now. And I think people need to create and just get out there and find your, you know, find your little thing that you do and do it and share it with your friends and your family. And that’s all to me that it’s about. It’s just the love in my heart and putting out some joy.

Tricia

You came out of the womb making things. Like you have been an artist forever.

Carolyn

I’ve been, as I say, an actress.

Tricai

Yeah, I mean, painting and recovering, you’re doing this fabulous upholstery and that you had a company called Nutty Girl for a long time that was creating fabulous nuts. I mean, tell just a little bit about Nutty Girl real quick.

Carolyn

Nutty Girl was, you know, a happy accident. I had made this nut mix and took it to my sister for Thanksgiving and she had a shop at the time and she was like, can we put it in my shop? And I was like, okay. I mean, you know, I knew nothing. I mean, that was just like, and then it became a thing. And it was just like, I had to end up going and getting boxes and you know, I sold it all over the US and I did all sorts of, it just became, it blew up and it was super fun. And I was the Nutty Girl for seven years and had a blast. And my kids were involved. I mean, they helped me package and ship and we had a blast doing it. It was really fun. But I retired from Nutty Girl in 2011 and really haven’t done a lot of anything until this project, which was the book.

Tricia

Well, you know, a lot of anything that means, I know you, you’ve been making…

Carolyn

That means out in the world. mean, yeah, that means that doesn’t mean at home. I mean, I’m doing a lot at home, but I mean, I’m like, you know, putting myself out in a big way. You know, I had retracted from that and spent, you know, 11 years basically getting my kids into high school, college. That’s a very busy time, you know.

Tricia

Yeah, yeah. so, Beth, how about you? Why do you think it’s important for you to do what you’re doing right now?

Beth

Well, first of all, I just think that this is an amazing time in our lives, each of us being in our 60s, and we are definitely not invisible. And that creative force, for some reason, I think is almost all of the things that we’ve had to do are in a way not behind us, but not in the forefront. And it’s a time that we can really start being creative. I just applaud both of you, Carolyn and Amy, and also what I’m trying to do is these are legacy projects. You said from the heart, how do you monetize? It’s not even necessarily that important to me. I just wanted to bring something that had been a passion of mine in my 30s. It’s still alive and well and it’s still a passion of mine. And I think my project is a little bit more difficult to describe, you know, being an app, introducing babies to languages from around the world. But it is about connecting and it’s about bringing joy to the world and for little children to start understanding that people do speak different languages and there are different types of music out there. And then when you think about, you know, bringing that into the world, you know, I even said to Tricia at one point,

you i don’t even care if this makes any money i just wanna bring it out in the world i just want you know for people to experience something that i think is important and that if it’s important to me I’m sure there’s a as following a people that will embrace it and want their children to be introduced to the languages and music of the world but you know to me that topics that we have here you know we have cooking what is more about bringing people together than cooking and sitting around a table and then even more important than that is people sitting around the table with good manners. I wish I had had that course with my children and fortunately now there’s a new generation that can have that. So anyway, just think to me it’s about a legacy project, but I think it’s also very current and relevant and people wanting to connect in different ways.

Tricia

And give a little bit of background though. So you’ve been the chief of protocol in Dallas for how many years?

Beth

Directly for the mayor of Dallas for four years and then I worked for the city through a contract for 18 years. So, you know, lot of that is etiquette and protocol and people knowing the right thing to do. You know, I was just, when Amy was talking about it, you know, if we could just maybe pass a bill that said every politician needed to take an etiquette course and, you know, on manners and, you know, civility and all of that, I think maybe all the world’s problems would almost be solved if we did that. So I’m all for that. But to me, it’s a little bit about people also understanding that people hate to come into a situation and not know what to do, like which is my wine glass or which is my water glass or which is my fork. And so it’s about creating comfort for people. And I just think etiquette is just so fundamental to everything we do. Yeah, protocol has a lot of etiquette involved in it and I’m just excited to learn about this new resource with Mrs. Meyers etiquette. I’m looking forward to using that for a lot of things that I’m involved in.

Tricia

We’ve got some cross pollination here, right? After this, there’s a business that the three of you can start together. But you’ve been in international relations, I mean, for a very long time. And I’ve had the pleasure of watching you develop firstSounds. So tell me if I’m saying this correctly about what it does. And there’s a time in babies’ lives where they’re the most able to learn audio. It’s zero to six months, but can happen later. And so Beth’s app plays lullabies from around the world and languages from around the world so these little babies’ brains get the neural pathways. So when they go to Spanish class at HB Plant high school, they can actually pronounce the words correctly and retain it and not forget everything like I did. So it’s preparing these babies to be able to have a better ability to communicate in a foreign language growing up. Did I do that well?

Beth

You did it extremely well. Sound is one of the first senses. Even in the womb, babies can hear sounds so hearing different sounds just expands the neural pathways and the ability to hear those sounds later in life. Sometimes the problem with learning a language, a different language, is it’s not even about the mouth. It’s that you can’t even hear the difference in a sound. the earlier you can prime the brain with these different sound pathways, you have at least the ability to hear that there’s a difference between an R and an L, which can be difficult for some languages. So it’s just a way of nurturing the baby’s brain and little children as well. You know, there’s research that the earlier the better, but almost up to puberty, the mind, and even beyond. mean, you still have the ability, but it’s much easier the earlier that you learn or exposed to different skill sets and different sounds especially because that is the first sense that is truly the babies come out listening and hearing things. And then comes the speaking and other, obviously sight is in there, but for language it’s about hearing the sounds.

Tricia

So I want to ask all three of you just when the seed got planted for you. So I know with you, Beth, you had a fabulous Madame Alexander doll collection. Was that correct?

Beth

I did, I did. Dolls from foreign lands. And I was just fascinated with what all these different little girls were wearing from all over the world. My godmothers would give me a different doll every birthday or Christmas or for any holiday. I’d get a different Madame Alexander doll.

Tricia

Well, and so the way that played out is just this fascination with all things foreign for the rest of your life. I mean your honeymoon, you were gone for like 18 months and went to 28 countries.

Beth

Exactly. Yeah, I’ve just had a lot of interest in just other cultures. You know, obviously food, know, food is a big one and the sounds of languages and just different people’s customs, their etiquette, you know, it all comes together. It’s just a fascinating group that we have here because there’s different parts to this connectivity, different ways of connecting with people through language, through cooking, through eating, through just observing each other’s customs.

Tricia

Carolyn, when did you start cooking?

Carolyn

I think I was six and Ricky came to me.

Tricia

Ricky, brother. Ricky, your brother.

Carolyn

Ricky, my brother, came to me and I was down in kitchen with him looking for food and he was like, do you wanna make muffins? And I was like, I do wanna make muffins. mean, you know, and so he was five years older than me. So he got the box down and it was that, you know, Duncan Hines wild blueberry thing. And he showed me how to do it. He asked with the can of blueberry and he showed me the box and we read each step and we did exactly what it said to do and we poured it in the pan and put it in the oven and then 20 minutes later we were like, yeah, I mean, I was like, okay, I’m in, I’m in with this. I will be eating with you. I mean, we are in, you know, so, and then it just morphed into – my best childhood friend, she was the same way. We were always looking for food and we would get together in her mother’s kitchen when we were seven and like create messes, but we would make things. And so I never stopped, never stopped. I learned from that point on and I was like making grilled cheese sandwiches. And then I was, I took a year of cooking at the Academy my senior year and I learned so much.

Tricia

You could take cooking classes at the Academy?

Carolyn

Well, yes, because I certainly wasn’t going in Chemistry. Okay. You know, and they were like, but you can cook. And I was like, I will cook. I will bring the food, you know? And so I took a year. I, you were only supposed to take a semester. And I went to my teacher and said, please let me take another year, another semester. And we went to the principal. went to Sister AV and she said, you can do it. And I was like, yes. And I learned like soup to nuts. We, I mean, we literally started with, you know, all the tools in the kitchen to, you know, desserts and everything in between. And it was fascinating and I was just hooked and never, never have stopped.

Tricia

So I just had no idea that you had that experience. 

Carolyn

Yeah, it was awesome.

Tricia

I just love how things younger shaped. And so Amy, how about you?

Amy

I had a grandfather with whom I was very close who grew up very poor in the hills of North Carolina and had made good. It was very important to him that it was a way to fit in and promote success. And then I had a grandmother on the other side who had come from a very affluent family, was very ladylike and everything was very proper and I was very close to her. So I think probably that, and we always sat at the dining room table for dinner growing up, you know, 6:30 and there were too many of us to sit, there were five of us, too many of us to sit at the kitchen table so we always ate in the dining room, you know, with the silver and the china and all that. So I think it’s, and then grandparents died and I got the stuff and I think it, I’ve just, it’s always been part of me. And I love to entertain. It’s that, think Beth or Carolyn, one of you was talking about connection, right? And I think of, I love that Howard’s End by EM Forster, and the first line is “only connect.” I think he’s really talking about your head and your heart, but I like to think about connecting people and that entertaining and graciousness and civility is a way to connect people and bring people together.

Tricia

Would you please tell what you used to do when Lucy was in the hospital?

Amy

So my daughter was very ill when she was probably 18 years old and she had anorexia. And she was at Children’s Hospital, big fan of Children’s Hospital on 7 West. And we knew she was going in the hospital and I packed my bag, I was going, because I stayed in the hospital with her. And I brought linens, placemats and napkins, several different sets. And I guess I felt I could control the outcome through prayer and civility. The second we landed in the hospital, I called Winston Flowers in Boston and I had flowers delivered to her room, flowers delivered to the nurses’ stand, and every meal, a nurse had to supervise all her meals. But before the tray would come in, I would put out a, you know, place mat, a linen place mat and a napkin. Many of them came from my grandmother had flowers embroidered on them or whatever. And anyhow, she’s thriving now. So something must have worked.

Amy

I just love that. We’re going to make this work between prayer and civility. And the fact that you were setting this lovely table for someone who was struggling around the idea of eating, I thought was just the loveliest thing to do. I really did. It was great.

We’ll get back to the second half of our conversation in a moment, but right now I want to tell you about our sponsor, Interabang Books, a Dallas-based independent bookstore which was named one of the country’s top five bookstores by Publishers Weekly. They have a fabulous curated online collection and it’s just as easy to shop with them as it is with Amazon. Who doesn’t want to support an independent bookstore? Please show them some love and check them out at interabangbooks.com.

That’s Interabang, I-N-T-E-R-A-B-A-N-G, books.com.

Tricia

What has surprised you guys in making these things? how have you surprised yourself? Have you gone like, I never thought I could do this before, or this was just waiting to happen? Or like, what, you know, I mean, what have you found out that makes you go, yay me. 

Beth

Well, I’d love to jump in on this one because everything we’ve talked about has been so positive and the outcomes have been good, but I never in a million years thought it would be so hard to make an app. I mean, we just click on them on our phone and these things just pop up. And I’m thinking, well, how hard could it possibly be? And I started on this, just the app portion, not the idea portion. I’ve worked on that for years and months and whatever but

the actual building of the app, I started in like October and I’m still, it is ready and it’s ready to go. You know, I mean, it was every night talking to people in India. I was working with Indian app developers that I had found and I’m thinking, well, you how hard can that be? Well, you know, I’m exhausted and there, you know, we’re all, and they were just waking up in the morning and I’m trying to go to bed and you know, half the time I’m sure they’re thinking, who is this, you know, American woman that we’re talking to on the other end of the world. I just didn’t realize how hard it would be. But then I also, it made me feel so alive. I mean, it was just such a, like I would go to bed, just my head would be hurting. But I’d wake up the next morning just feeling so like I had accomplished something in each step of the way. So it pushed me, it extended my…I just didn’t, first off know it would be that hard, once I found out it was that hard, I wasn’t sure I could do it. And it was such a satisfying experience to be on the other end where now I’m actually talking about people downloading my app. But that was surprising to me, Tricia.

Beth

You showed, I’ve watched you through this process and I mean, her meetings would be at 11 o’clock at night. I mean, I would have just been cross-eyed talking about an app at 11 o’clock at night with people across the world. And you just found out so much about yourself that like, you know, I’ve watched you transform in this process and we have this conversation about how you were talking about what it’s like for you as Chief of Protocol in Dallas and you’re like, well, I, you know, I own that place. You know exactly what to do when you walk into City Hall in Dallas. And now it feels like you own this whole app situation. Like you’ve really stepped in into your authority there to just take command of that.

Beth

And I do have to say that when I first launched this product 30 years ago, I had ownership of it. I knew the development of it and the marketing, et cetera, but the world has changed since then. I, for a number of years, just wanted somebody else to do it for me. I just went, can’t somebody else just figure this out? And then once I realized nobody else was as passionate about it as I was, that I needed to roll up my sleeves, learn a new skill, get out of my comfort zone. I wasn’t gonna be timid. I just had to be bold and along the way I’ve worked with Tricia on her great skill set of pushing people out of their comfort zone. And so yeah, just had, I couldn’t let other people do it. Nobody else was as passionate about it as I was. And I needed to just do it myself in this young age.

Tricia

The common fact between the three of you is you are all three fearless, which is why I’m like, this is a good trio to have together. Cause it’s not, I mean, you haven’t gone like, no, I can’t. It’s like, I’m doing that, you know? So Carolyn, I mean, how about you? What surprised you in the process? Cause I also know you’ve talked to me about it and that you had, you had a crew of women that were helping you with this, with this project as well.

Carolyn

Oh my God, totally. First off, it was such a deep dive into myself and into my life and what I had been doing because when I first started out, I’m gonna do, I’m just gonna do these recipes. And then it was just like, came into my head, like go big or stay home. Don’t not do it right. I mean, so I have four books that I’ve handwritten that I cook out of. And then I have, books in my shelves. I mean so I went everywhere and dug up everything I possibly could and had to beat it out of all my friends and family too, because you know, it’s like, I need the recipe, you know, whatever. But I found my whole life in a book that I had no idea that that was going to happen. Absolutely not. And then the other thing that I..

Tricia

When you say you’ve found your whole life in a book, what do you mean?

Carolyn

Well, it was just from the very beginning when I started collecting recipes when I was 19 years old to now when I’m making my own and I’ve morphed into so many things because I’m a vegan now. I mean, like everything is so different. I had my whole life. I mean, like when my husband came into my life, when my children came into my life, when my sister was here, when, you know, all the things, my brothers and, you know, all the things that they brought to the table, I just was there in the middle of it, just looking at it going, wow, this is the last 40 years of my life. It turned into like a little biography. And then in each recipe, because I was honestly writing it for my children, I was talking like I was talking to them. I will say this might go fast, turn the heat down, mix it with this. And in the end, I would have little antidotes or little stories at each end of most of the recipes saying, this is why I did it, or I like it this way, or you may find this X, Y, and Z. And a lot of people have commented to me that this book is like a little novel. I mean, it has this…a feeling in these recipes that normally it’s just cut and dry, you know, chop, cook, bake. That’s it. You know, it doesn’t say I burnt it five times. Don’t walk out when you’re doing X, Y, and Z. Okay. You know, like stuff like that. So it gives it life. And, I just had no idea that this thing was going to turn into this, just treasure of my stories and I did put a lot of artwork and pictures and I’ve had more people call me and go, okay, I cried after I read that cookbook. And I’m just like, well, okay, you know, I mean, it’s just like, brought them to tears. I mean, they were just like, oh my God, or, you know, tell more stories, put more recipes in there. And I’m like, you know, we’re done, but it was way bigger and way more a big piece of me than I ever thought, I mean, had no clue.

Tricia

Well, I have your cookbook. I love your cookbook. You know, so yeah, there’s a couple of times, there are places that are very moving in the book as well. But I think it is, it’s like there is so much life in the cookbook.

Carolyn

The thing about the book is that the recipes are easy. Nothing in there is like, okay, you know, I made it so you can make it in like, you know, a short period of time and eat it. It’s not something that is going to hinder you. And I want people to feel comfortable in the kitchen. I do. And especially my children. I was like, it needs to be just something that you do not something like, I can’t believe I have to do. It is a part of self care.

Tricia

Yeah, that’s great. Amy, what surprised you in this process?

Amy

Well, first I have to say, Carolyn, I appreciate and find helpful your position that cooking is a part of self care because I think after however many years of marriage I had, and now I’m a single person, I really dread cooking. I love entertaining. This is my problem. I love entertaining. I love setting the table. I love welcoming people into my home. The whole cooking part of it just, it’s so thank you. 

Carolyn

Well, you need my book then.

Amy

You’ve given me, you’ve given me a fresh lens for which I’m grateful. I think I do need your book. Maybe you could write one for single people.

Tricia

What in your process of starting Mrs. Meyers Etiquette has surprised you? And how have you surprised yourself? You can do something that you didn’t think you could do or…

Amy

Okay, well, I’ve surprised myself that I’ve done as well as I have. I think what has really surprised, and I have to say again, I could not have done this without my daughter, because she rides me – Mom, you’re coming to town, you bring two outfits, we’re gonna film, right? She does the posting, she posts my substacks, she’s great. I think what surprised me is I think of myself as, I don’t think of myself as old, but I’m like, okay, I’m this 64 year old woman in New Hampshire. And, you know, and I live here in the country with two donkeys and two goats and five wild dogs and people listen to me. I think that’s what astounds me. And when I ran the political consulting firm, I found it was a very male dominated field, industry. And I found people would often underestimate me because of my age and my sex and that was useful. What I found in this business is sometimes people overestimate me and I have to step into that and that’s good.

Tricia

I think all of us are in that place of taking up space. You’re like, we can take up space. All of you and me, we’ve worked really hard to be able to say, I have this expertise. I have this authority in the best sense of the word. And we should be listened to because it’s not like we just thought about this yesterday. It’s been something that’s been, we’ve been cultivating this for decades. I mean, I’m in the woods in New Hampshire too. We live what 40 minutes apart. These days, these, and you’re in rural Georgia, aren’t you Carolyn?

Carolyn

Most of the time, yes. I also am in South Carolina.

Tricia

But you It doesn’t matter anymore where we are. You’re not limited really by geography anymore. You can make what you need to make where you are. And so, I mean, one of the things that we say in the manifesto is constraints are opportunities. And all of us have had some sort of constraint that we’re dealing with and overcoming that. So I want to ask, first of all, do either of you all want to ask the other one a question?

Amy

Well, I’m curious because I see so many of my friends are retiring, I feel like I’m just stepping into this new career and I’m thinking, oh, I could be doing this until I’m 80. Why not? Do you ladies feel a little bit out of step sometimes with your friends and your peers?

Carolyn

No, no, no, I don’t. 

Tricia

You don’t?

Carolyn

Well, first off, my friends and peers are mainly, they all work. I mean, you know, they’re in that. I mean, I do have relatives and stuff that are retired and they’re golfing and all that. But I mean, that’s not really my, my scene. I mean, I, I have, you know, a little bit more of when you’re an artist, you hang out with people that are just they’re on the creative track. They’re not getting off. You know what I mean? They’re not going to go, I’m going to go play golf now. I mean, that’s not, that’s not what they do. So, you know, I, I’m like, oh no. I mean, my friends are all just old and still hanging the paint, you know, just doing their thing.

Tricia

Older. The word is older, not old.

Carolyn

Older older sorry, you know, I’m not afraid. I’m not afraid of being old. I like people so, you know, I’m I like it.

Amy

I have to comment on the old comment. My mother is one of the most vibrant, interesting, engaged people I know, and I will not say her age publicly, but she is my mother. And her, she says, you cannot let the old man in. She refuses to accept limitation, so I try to hold to that.

Tricia

Beth, do you have anybody in your world, or do you feel out of step with the rest of the folks in your world?

Beth

In my day job, I’m working with people significantly younger than me. I’m even past the point of working with people that are my children’s age, they’re even younger than that. And I just feel like everybody just needs to listen to me. I’ve been there, done that, and I have to kind of guard myself a little bit against that. If the whole world just listened to me. But in terms of this project, in terms of this project, I just feel like it’s such a gift to myself that I’m kind of letting me do something that’s so important that I don’t even feel like I’m working. I just feel like it’s just such a form of creativity. And I think that’s where Tricia and all of her wisdom and manifesto, it’s made me realize that creative can be manifested in so many different ways. It’s not just painting something, even though that’s been a fun thing I’ve explored that I never thought I could paint anything. Cooking is a form of expression, teaching, etiquette, all of it is creativity. And so it’s just tapped into a creative part of me that’s been very fulfilling. And so I don’t feel at all at a step with people, I just feel like everybody needs to get on my bandwagon and find out their passion and hey, here we go guys, let’s do it. 

Amy

I love it.

Tricia

I know what you mean a little bit though. mean, have friends, know, I have friends, my artist friends, they’re never quitting. You know, the ones who are just curious and are doing what they’re doing, they’re either going to start a business or do this, or they’re just going to be making and doing, that’s just who they are, you know. Whether they need to do it as a form of income is different, but they’re just going to do this stuff because that’s what they’re going to do. I have some other friends who are on a different track. You know, I don’t have grandchildren, so I can’t be playing with grandchildren. They don’t exist. I like to surround myself with people who are, regardless of their age, are making something, are doing something new, are putting something out there that still have all this creative energy that they want to use. So thank you. Okay, I’m going to ask all of y’all the question I ask all of my guests. What do you need courage for right now? There’s no right answer.

Beth

Well, I don’t mind jumping in. Now that my app is complete and it’s ready for the world, I need courage to really get out there and market it. Sometimes you create something and then it’s almost like, my gosh, are people gonna like this? Are people gonna accept it? And I mean, it’s a little bit of fear on my part, but I just need to really lean into it and just hopefully my passion will translate to other people and we’re talking about people that are younger, that new moms, which is a whole new era. And I love the fact that Amy, you found yourself getting all these followers. I really want to take a page from your book and find out how you do that because that’s such an important piece of marketing, but really not being afraid to really let the world know about this and to put it out there.

Tricia

Well, also Beth, because the world really needs this right now to have people understand and have connection through about how other cultures are in language and music. And it’s just, it’s a really important, it’s very important what you’re doing right now. So Carolyn, how about you? What courage do you need?

Carolyn

I mean, my courage, you know, with this book, I found that the people that were really loving it were millennials and Gen Z. And, you know, the women my age were just like, you know, I want to get out of the kitchen. I don’t want to go in the kitchen. You know, they’re tired of being in the kitchen. I get it. I mean, I get it. So, but they’re like, but I’m giving it to my daughter and I’m giving it to my, you know, neighbor who’s, you know, in there, whatever. But what I found is that, you know, they’re not cranking out the cookbooks out of the churches anymore. You know, remember how you could find the books and this book is like a homage, you know, to those women who were just grinding it out, cooking and making these meals or this one recipe that everybody wants you to make a thousand times. I mean, so those books and the Junior League and all that stuff. All the cookbooks have turned into these table books, you know, that you’re supposed to put out on the coffee table or whatever. I’m just like, y’all are losing what we’re supposed to be doing here. Or it’s some crazy, not crazy, a complicated chef who is like going, go get, you know, you have to have a ricer for your potatoes and all this stuff. I’m just like, no, no, no, no, we’re eating over here. We’re not five-star dining. So I’m like, I, I sold out, I sold 350 copies in two months. I did great. I was very excited. I went ahead and reordered. And so now I have copies and I’m like, I’ve got to get back out there and get it going again, you know, and I’ve had a bit of reprieve just because I needed it, you know, but, I will, I will, but it’s like, it takes courage to reach out to these people that I do not know because my husband was like, well, now that you’ve sold it to all your friends, I mean, what are you gonna do? I’m like, really, it’s true. I mean, I’m like, I can’t ask them again, but I have to go to people that I kind of don’t know and sell it to them, which I can as long as I can put a couple of the recipes out. I mean, people just stand there and go, okay, I want the book. But like I said, it is the younger crowd and I love connecting to them. I like being the person that’s like, yes, I’ve been doing this for the last 40 years of my life and I do know like what you’re saying, Beth, I do know what I’m doing. Not because I’m smarter than you, I’ve been here longer. That’s what my mom used to say all the time. I’ve just been here longer than you. So I have this thing that I know, you and so that is that I gotta do that. I gotta get the courage and the chits back up.

Tricia

Okay, all right. Amy, how about you?

Amy

I think I’m with Beth. I need courage to persist. I’m very resilient, but I can easily get distracted. Courage to persist and to put myself out there. Because I truly believe I’m good at what I do and that I have a lot to offer and that there’s a desperate need for it. So I actually got a call today from a private club. They want me to teach kids etiquette.

Not really my preference. Now, like we can’t afford to pay you, but we’ll give you a year’s membership. I’m like, well I could take a year’s membership. It’s a, you know, it’s a nice club in Boston. I’m like, I said, do I need to get three letters of recommendation before I can work for you for free? They said, no, no, we’ll just give you the membership.

Tricia

That’s a hoot.

Carolyn

That’s awesome.

Tricia

 Well, and that important point, there are different ways to be compensated. It doesn’t always come in cash, but it has to be something that at least moves you forward, right? It gives you an audience forward. Carolyn, were you going to say something?

Carolyn

I was, I was going to tell Amy that back in the day when I worked at Jacobson’s, I managed the children’s department and I taught manners, Miss Manners for the children and loved it, had so much fun. And it was a complete blast. And I’m like, go girl, because Emily Post, you know, she was pretty rocking for a long time. I mean, we can have, you know, Miss Amy now. And I think it’s fabulous. I do. I am just like, whoop, whoop. I mean, it is needed. It is needed and good for you.

Amy

Thank you.

Tricia

All three of you are doing things that are really needed, which is why I wanted to have you on the show. You know, I mean, it’s important and it is, as Beth said, there is a legacy component to what y’all are doing and what you’re passing on, but what you’re teaching people through your creativity is how to connect in a way that really matters. Right now, in a world that’s in some ways very broken and in other ways full with possibility. So all of you are the possibility that’s awaiting. And so I’m really so tickled to have you on. And also because you’re just women who said, I’m gonna do something. And that is fantastic. So thank you so much for being on the show. I’m so tickled that you joined us. And remember, it’s no time to be timid out there. Thank you for embodying that.

Carolyn

Thank you, Tricia.

Amy

Thank you.

Beth

Great group, Tricia.

Tricia

Well, I think there’s a business that might be able, or least some collaborations in the future. 

Amy

I think so too.

Tricia

Thank you all so much. Thank you.

Tricia

I don’t know about you but hearing these women talk gives me hope for the world. And they got me thinking about some questions. First, do you have a creative project or a business you’ve been dreaming about but thought it was too late to start? Second, what did you love doing as a child? Can it be the seed for an adult passion? And last, have you surprised yourself lately about what you’re able to accomplish? If you want to learn more about these creative powerhouses, you can follow Carolyn on Instagram @cbc233 or @carolyncooksandsocanyou. Learn more about Beth and her app at firstsounds.com and follow Amy on Instagram @mrsmeyersetiquette. Check out the show notes for more information as well.

Thanks for joining us. If you have any questions, feel free to reach out to us at podcast@triciaroseburt.com. And if you liked this episode, please share it with one other person that you think will enjoy it. Then maybe talk to them about the parts that resonate. It really helps build our audience. And remember, this is no time to be timid.

No Time to Be Timid is written and produced by me, Tricia Rose Burt. Our episodes are produced and scored by Adam Arnone of Echo Finch. And our executive producers are Amy Grant, Nancy Perot, and Sage Wheeler. I’d also like to thank contributors to my Fractured Atlas Fiscal Sponsorship, which helps make this podcast happen. No Time to Be Timid is a presentation of I Will Be Good Productions.

Take Aways

• Growth comes from stepping out of your comfort zone — something Vince continues to do
• The sure thing is not necessarily the right thing
• Don’t ever be the best musician in the band
• Stand by your beliefs even if everyone else is going in a different direction
• Success is not defined by charts or sales, but by respect from peers; and
• Kindness could solve every problem we have

Resources

Learn more about Vince and check out his tour schedule here.

Follow him on instagram @vincegillofficial.

Watch Vince perform:

• March On
• Go Rest High on That Mountain with Patty Loveless
• Every Breath You Take with Sting

See his vintage guitar collection here.

Find out more about Vince’s friend Keb’ Mo’, an award-winning blues musician.

Learn more about The Sphere and go see Vince play with the Eagles!

And listen to Amy and Vince’s daughter Corrina sing her song Too Much. 

Transcript

Vince

Hey everybody, I’m Vince Gill and this is No Time to Be Timid.

Tricia 

Hey there, I’m Tricia Rose Burt, and in this podcast, we talk to artists who show us how to find the courage to take risks, step out of our comfort zones, and use our creativity to make our work and change our world. Pay close attention, because this is no time to be timid.

Hey there and welcome to the show. So we are all in for a serious treat. My guest this episode is the award-winning singer-songwriter, Vince Gill. And when I say award-winning, I mean 22 Grammy Awards. He won Grammys every year from 1990 to 1999, and his latest win was in 2021. He’s won eight Academy of Country Music Awards and 18 CMA Awards. No other artist has won the CMA Male Vocalist Award in five consecutive years, and he’s the only songwriter to win Song of the Year four times. One of those songs is Go Rest High on that Mountain.

(Clip from Go Rest High on the Mountain)

What you just heard is from the YouTube clip of Vince playing that song at George Jones’ funeral. It’s been viewed 19 million times and I’m one million of those views. Vince is a member of the Grand Ole Opry, was inducted into the Country Music Hall of Fame in 2007, and his knowledge of country music is so extensive, he was featured in nearly every segment of Ken Burns’ documentary on country music.

Along with his unforgettable tenor voice, Vince is an extraordinary guitar player and has shared the stage with guitar greats like Eric Clapton, Jeff Beck, B.B. King, and Carlos Santana. He’s been playing with his good pal Joe Walsh and the Eagles for the past nine years, stepping in for the late Glenn Frey. His vintage guitar collection is out of this world. And sure, he’s collaborated with every possible country music great like Dolly Parton and Reba McEntire. But think of music legends in other genres like Sting or Barbra Streisand, and Vince has collaborated with them too.

So Vince is basically a music icon, but he’s on the show because he continues to make courageous choices, not only for his career, but also for all of us, using his music to make the world a better place. He’s one of the nicest, most generous people you’ll ever meet. Lucky for me, I met Vince for the first time back in 2012 when his wife Amy Grant and I reconnected after I performed my one woman show at a Vanderbilt University reunion. Amy asked me to perform my show at their home two weeks later. And during rehearsal, I realized I needed somebody to run the sound for the show, which meant occasionally pushing a button and correctly adjusting the volume. Vince volunteered for the task. As I sat surrounded by Grammy awards, it occurred to me this was probably not the best use of his skill sets but he was game and I was grateful. 

Since I’ve gotten to know Vince as a friend, I forget sometimes that he’s the icon that he is. But I was reminded last week when I saw him perform in Boston. I sat in the audience for more than three hours, gobsmacked, in awe of the talent this man possesses. In our conversation, Vince reflects on his 50-year journey in music and talks about the choices that shaped his career. And he shared some insights:

• Growth comes from stepping out of your comfort zone, something Vince continues to do.
• The sure thing is not necessarily the right thing.
• Don’t ever be the best musician in the band.
• You’ve got to stand by your beliefs, even if everyone else is going in a different direction.
• Success is not defined by charts or sales, but by respect from peers.
• And kindness could solve every problem we have.

At 68, Vince believes he’s making the best music of his career. No matter where you are in your artistic journey, you will leave this conversation inspired.

Tricia

Hey Vince, thank you so much for letting me come to your studio.

Vince

Yes, ma’am.

Tricia

So you left home 50 years ago.

Vince

That’s what they tell me. I don’t remember it.

Tricia

Well, from what they say, you left home 50 years ago. I need to know what that looked like. Like, did you get your high school diploma on a Friday and then get in a car on a Saturday?

Vince

Well, it wasn’t quite like that. It was close to that. But yeah, I got out of high school and I didn’t really have a plan. I knew I wasn’t going to go to college.

Tricia

Why did you know that?

Vince

Because I didn’t want to. They couldn’t teach me anything about hillbilly singing and guitar playing, so I just didn’t see the need to go. I never applied to a school, never even looked into it. Because I spent so much time of my high school years playing out, playing in clubs, playing in a couple of different bands, making records and doing all that stuff.

Tricia

When was the first time you got on a stage?

Vince

I don’t remember. I think it was grade school, second grade maybe.

Tricia

And what were you playing?

Vince

The guitar. And I sang The House of the Rising Sun.

Tricia

No way. 

Vince

Yeah. So I didn’t even know what it was about. It’s all about a house of ill repute. And I’m up there singing. I’m sure the teachers were just rolling their eyes going, oh my god.

Tricia

So did you know, like did you look in the mirror at age 10 and go, I want to be a musician? Like did you always know that was your identity? Did you ever think maybe I’ll do something else or was it just in you right from the start?

Vince

Well, I was a good athlete, you know, I was a decent athlete, played sports well and I was a decent golfer. And I had aspirations — every kid dreams of playing Major League Baseball or something like that, you know, but it was sports and music for me, you know, just hands down. And I had given so much of my time to music by the time I got into high school and was, like I said, playing out that I knew that I knew what I wanted to do. And it didn’t matter to me, I don’t think I ever really thought about it in terms of being successful. I only thought about it in terms of just doing it. They asked my mom years later after I’d had a pretty good amount of success, and they were talking to her and they said, did it bother you that your son didn’t take a more traditional route and go get a good job, get an education, da da da? And she kind of went, no, it didn’t bother me. It didn’t bother me at all. She said, I didn’t care anything about having a rich kid. I sure cared about having a happy kid. That music made him happy.

Tricia

Yeah, that’s fantastic.

Vince

And so I never, you know, I didn’t get grief from my folks. Like, what are you doing? You’re wasting your time messing around with that music thing. And they both liked music. So it was, I think they enjoyed it too.

Tricia

So what about your friends? I mean, were they taking a more conventional path? Did they look at you like…

Vince 

Yeah, they thought I was nuts, but you know, and maybe I was but you know, and I left home and so the majority of my buddies growing up with kind of lost touch with for the most part because I left and I traveled and I’ve been gone ever since.

Tricia

I know that feeling. Okay, so instead of going through all of your repertoire of everything you’ve done, I kind of want to focus on those moments where you had to step into some real courage, because this is what this show is about. So you had this big milestone when Mark Knopfler asked you to go join him on a world tour with Dire Straits and I was watching Ken Burns, Country Music. I’m going to tell you what your quote was and then I’m going to ask you a question about it.

Vince

See if it was true or if I was lying.

Tricia

I don’t know if you were lying. You might’ve been lying, 

Vince 

Pretty good chance. My lips are moving, I might be lying.

Tricia

You’re a questionable character. Anyway, it said, I was struggling to pay the house note at the time and it would have cured everything financially. It would have been a great experience.

The musician in me wanted to do that so badly because I love the way he plays and sings, but I told myself, if you’re not going to believe in you, who else is? I’m going to have to say no. I don’t want to say no, but I have to try it. I think I have something to offer this world of country music. So I want to ask you a question. You said the musician in me wanted to do it. Who overrode it? What part of you overrode the musician and said, we’re going in this other direction? 

Vince

Well, I think they’re all the same guy.

Tricia

That’s what I was, yeah, that’s what I’m wondering.

Vince

It was that simple. What it would have done to me by taking that job would have been admitting failure. Because the years prior I struggled and I couldn’t get a hit and I couldn’t get on radio and all those kinds of things. The sure thing is not necessarily the right thing. I just said I got to follow my heart because my ears tell me. My ears aren’t lying to me. I can sing as good as anybody in this business, you know? And these songs are good. I keep, you know, I just gotta, I want to keep after it. I just think my gut tells me I belong.

Tricia

And so that’s always a question that I have sometimes. Is it vision or is it ego? Right? You know, that tension?

Vince

Yeah, I wouldn’t call it ego because I don’t know that I have a whole lot of ego when it comes to this thing I do. .

Tricia

No, you don’t.

Vince 

I’m very open about what I can and can’t do. And I don’t give a rip who gets the credit or who gets to be in the spotlight or all those kinds of things. So with that, I know it’s just – I’m just trying to make the best decision I can. heard Keb Mo say one time, somebody asked him, said, when did it finally break for you? When did it kind of blow up? And he said, when I didn’t have a backup plan. And it was kind of neat to hear that many years down the road. I didn’t mind. It was not frustrating to not have success. That’s the real odd thing to kind of say out loud, but I was a part of the community whether I had success or not. People asked me to come and sing and play on their records, to come and be in their bands and play on the road. I could have done fine. I would not have killed it. I wouldn’t have a nice house in a nice neighborhood and all that, but I was respected and I played with great people and the people that were the best of the best liked what I did. So that was success. I didn’t always equate success with hit records and the charts and record sales. Those kinds of things were not what were going to define me.

Tricia

I had a creative coach ask me, Tricia, what’s more important to you, fame or the respect of your peers? And I went, respect of my peers.

Vince

Absolutely.

Tricia

Every time.

Vince

Absolutely. Yeah, I think there’s a lot of people out there that play in stadiums, but they don’t have the respect of their peers and that kills them and eats them alive.

Tricia

Yeah, and that’s why I was that vision ego thing sometimes when I’m thinking of something it’s like just checking in with myself because sometimes I feel “don’t get ahead of yourself. Do you think you could really do that?” I’m just trusting my strengths and my talents and that’s what you did. You said this is what I can do.

Vince

It’s all I had. All I could do is what I did. You know, it’s funny, I heard somebody talk about creativity and art and they said, art is never finished, it’s only abandoned. And that’s a powerful statement. You know, you could be a painter and yeah, I could put some more red in there. Yeah, I could put another leaf on that tree. I could da-da-da-da-da-da. But at some point you gotta just kinda go, okay, that’s about as good as I got right now. I have to let it go. And it’s always been out of…The beautiful thing to realize, and it probably came way too late, but it was always out of my control. It was always out of my hands.

Tricia

What’s it?

Vince

Whatever result of what I did was, of the art I created, it was out of my hands whether people would respond or wouldn’t. I had nothing to do with it. And none of the notes changed on any of those records whether people bought them or didn’t buy them. The work was done prior to me letting it go. It’s like I said. It’s just abandoned and that’s what I do. I do the best I can and then I have to let it go. 

Tricia

How many songs have you written, do you think?

Vince

I don’t know. I have no clue. 

Tricia

A lot. 

Vince

Yeah I’d say probably a thousand or more.

Tricia

So how do you refill your well to keep that going?

Vince

Well, creativity is what I was meant to do, so it kind of comes natural. You know, melodies are always in my head. Thoughts are always in my head. Stories, I love telling stories, so I don’t… There’s nothing I enjoy more than sitting down with a blank piece of paper and see if I can tell a story that moves somebody. 

Tricia

You’ve been pretty good at that so far. 

Vince

Well, not bad, you know?

Tricia

So, okay, so one of the main, I mean, I’ve been wanting to have you on the show ever since I started it because of a conversation we had back in 2018. You had been asked to join the Eagles after Glenn Frey had died. I had met up with you and Amy in Boston, because y’all were playing at The Garden. And I said, So how is it playing with the Eagles? And you said to me, well, I’m not scared anymore. And I was like, what? I couldn’t imagine someone of your station being scared. And it was so liberating to hear that you were still pushing yourself out of a comfort zone to where you would feel being scared. So I want you to talk about what that, that whole experience.

Vince

I think for me, some of my favorite work I’ve done is when I was uncomfortable. When I was out of my element just enough, you know, to put a little bit of pressure on you and put a little bit of heat on you. And there’s several examples of that, that I did things because I worked at it that I didn’t think I could do.

Tricia

Like what?

Vince

Like sing a song called Surf’s Up. Beach Boys song.

Tricia

Yeah, tell me about that.

Vince 

 I got invited back in, think about 2000, 2001 to…to tribute to Brian Wilson and his music at Radio City Music Hall, think is where it was. Amy came, Corrina was a baby. And so when they called and asked if I would sing a couple songs, I said, yeah, what songs? And they said, Warmth of the Sun, which I knew. And I said, okay, yeah, I can do that. And said, and we also want you to sing Surf’s Up. And I didn’t know Surf’s Up. I I love the Beach Boys, but I don’t know all their records. And I said, okay, I was thinking Warmth of the Sun is a ballad, so the other one’s a Surfing USA kind of song, everybody’s surfing, surfing. And then I heard it and I went, I don’t think it’s humanly possible to sing that. And I called my manager Larry and I said, I’m not sure I can do this. He said, well, just sit with it for a little bit and try and…

Tricia

What about it made you think it wasn’t humanly possible to sing it?

Vince

Because it’s so fricking hard. The way it was written, was like an orchestral piece, way out of my element. And I worked and I worked and I worked and I worked. And David Crosby was part of it and Jimmy Webb, great songwriter. The three of us were gonna do it and I had all the first parts of the song, which were the hard parts. And I had the guts to try, and it worked out and came off pretty good.

But yeah, you know, I remember a TV show with Sting I did where we were gonna sing each other songs and his music is complicated to me in a great way. I love what he does, but I thought it’s a little bit over my head, you know, but as I dove into it and found my way into it with a little preparation, a little hard work, and I could find my way into it and make it make sense to me. And so anytime I got into a situation where I felt a little overwhelmed, I think it made me rise a little bit. It was cool. The best advice, I think some of the best advice I ever got as a young musician was don’t ever be the best musician in the band because you’ll never learn anything. So I’ve always tried to surround myself with people that are way better than me. And I do. I have and I still do to this day. So it’s fun because when everybody else is probably a good bit better than you, you have to come up to them instead of play down to lesser talented people.

Tricia

What was it like the first time you got on stage singing Take It To The Limit?

Vince

I was terrified. To be honest, it’s bizarre just in itself to stand in front of people and perform. It’s not natural. I had a sports psychologist to me one time said, what you do couldn’t be more abnormal.

Tricia

Why’d he say it?

Vince

He said, because all you ever hear is adulation. yeah. He said, that’s really weird. So he encouraged me to beat myself up a little bit. He said, be hard on yourself because it’s good for you. Help keep you level. And so I knew the apprehension that was, I could feel it. And we were playing Dodger Stadium 2017 and Randy was there. Randy Meisner who sang, Take It To The Limit. I could feel the crowd, just the tenseness of the people because here was somebody getting ready to sing the songs that Glenn had sung for 45 years, 50 years, whatever it’s been. So I sang a verse and a chorus of it and everybody just kind of went phew, it’s going to be okay. He can do it. And it’s okay. I don’t fault people for not being accepting of me being in the band. I knew it was coming. I knew there’d be a lot of naysayers. There still is, and there always will be and it’s okay. I don’t blame them. Somebody asked me about it and I said, hey, I don’t want to hear me sing New Kid in Town either. The other option just isn’t possible. So let’s just grin and bear it and get through it.

Tricia

Okay, so here’s my next question. Am I wrong in saying your favorite place to perform is the Ryman?

Vince

Live, yeah, I do like the vibe there a lot.

Tricia

So with the Eagles, you’re currently performing at The Sphere, which could not be a more different experience.

Vince

It’s, yeah, there’s nothing – you can’t compare it to anything because there’s never been anything like it.

Tricia

Like, did you have to learn new technology? Did you have to learn a new way to deliver your music? Like, what did you have to learn skill-wise going from someplace like the Ryman to someplace like The Sphere?

Vince

Well, nothing really in the sense that all I’m doing is singing and playing. You know, that hasn’t changed. The way it’s formatted and the way it’s done is very different. I have to wear in-ear monitors, which I’ve never worn and I don’t like them.

Tricia

Why don’t you like them?

Vince

Because they disconnect you from performing in front of an audience. In The Sphere, the thing there, it’s a visual, you know, and music has never been visual to me. It’s only about listening to it. So I jokingly tell people, it’s the most people I’ve ever been ignored by when I perform.  They go, you arrogant, you know what.  And I go, no, I’m just kidding. It’s a joke, you know? But you can’t help it. People are looking at the ceiling and they got their phones out and it’s a spectacle like you can’t describe to people because of the size of it and the magnitude of it. It’s so much more massive than a screen behind a giant stage and a PA and all that that you normally see at a concert. So it’s its own thing and it’s unbelievable. People love it.

Tricia

Listen, I was just in our little cafe at our bookstore in Peterborough, New Hampshire, the Toadstool Bookstore, and the owner of the cafe there had just been to The Sphere and was just going on and on about what an amazing experience it was. But for you, what does it feel like? I mean, is it satisfying?

Vince

Yeah, you know, I mean it’s a real gift to get to play and sing those songs. The Eagles songbook is untouchable, you know, and that’s why they’re them, because their songs were so great. And so, you know, I’ve had plenty of experience since playing with them of people not being about me being up there, so it’s not a big deal. And none of that feels like that at The Sphere. It’s just, you know going in that what they want to do is watch the show. It’s Vegas. It’s bigger than life. It’s unlike anything they’ve ever seen, and the wow factor is through the roof. And you know that going in, so it doesn’t bug you one bit.

Tricia 

There is a, I mean, the intimacy, you know, your songs are so intimate. I mean, and the Eagles is a different thing. I’m thinking of Vince Gill and how you operate and the intimacy of your songs. But it just seems like such a huge transition like it would be so great and also overwhelming to be in that space.

Vince

Yeah, it winds up being the same thing. Nobody grows tired of a great singer singing a great song. That’s what you’re there for, to hear those songs that are familiar to you and they mean something to you. So yeah, all the bells and whistles make it even more fun. The most amazing thing there is there’s 164,000 speakers in The Sphere. It’s kind of a 360 experience. It’s more around you and all the speakers are behind you. So there’s elements of – you can’t have amps on stage. You can’t because there’s a latency issue by the time the sound transfers from what you do to the speakers and through to the crowd. It’s later than you’ve played it. So it’d be impossible to play with if you didn’t have ear monitors to shut off the live sound. It’s a trip, but it’s doable..

Tricia

I was going say that would mess with my head. I think it would mess with your head.

Vince

Yeah, it does. I don’t watch the content because it makes me dizzy.

Tricia

That’s what I’ve heard.

Vince

Yeah, there’s some songs that can really mess with your equilibrium a little bit. 

Tricia

So where do you look?

Vince

I look at the crowd.

Tricia

Another reason why I wanted to have you on the show is there’s sometimes I imagine you – the crowd is going in one direction and you’re going in another way just doing what you think is right. What back in 2003 when the Dixie Chicks got into a little bit of trouble saying what they did in London in March and the rest of the country music community was really ignoring them and canceling them and people were running over their CDs and there were two people who were sticking up for them and you were one of them. Talk to me a little bit about that experience. I know that you didn’t necessarily agree with your viewpoint but you did agree with their right to say what they needed to say.

Vince

Yeah, I mean, and here’s the thing, if you’ve never tried to win an audience, you know, a whole lot of that was them just trying to get an audience on their side, get them to, whatever. My point was, I’ve heard people in their own world, in the political world, say worse things about him than they did, and nothing happens to them. It just seemed like a grossly unfair, you know, to destroy their careers for saying something foolish, you know, and maybe their bravado made them wouldn’t go ahead and take it back and say, okay, I made a mistake. Well, that doesn’t, that’s neither here nor there, but I just thought it didn’t make any sense to, to completely take them out in a sense, you know, and here’s what’s, here’s my favorite part of, what happened, you know. I’m a friend of that guy’s. We were golfing buddies and they couldn’t have been a better family. They’re a great family. I knew Senior well and sang their anniversary and all kinds of stuff. Just great people. I never drew any lines politically with people. If you believe what you believe, I’m not going to dislike you or be against you or any of that. I’m not judgmental in that way. So years later, Natalie Maines’s father is a great musician and I was at a thing, a Hall of Fame thing for Austin City Limits and somebody was getting inducted and I was helping out and this was many years after what happened that happened. And he pulled me aside and he said, I need to talk to you about something. He said, you’re about the only person that stuck up for my kid and as a father, I just want to say thank you.

Tricia

Oh my word, Vince. my word.

Vince

So, whatever grief I took from it, and I’m sure there was plenty. I didn’t see it or didn’t pay any attention to it. I operate under the theory I’m not gonna believe the good things they say about me or the bad things they say about me. I got a pretty good level path of how I treat people and how I carry on. So just hearing him say that as a father, as a fellow father, it was pretty powerful.

Tricia

It’s a very courageous thing to do to just stay in your lane and say, I’m not following all these other people. And to just, and I think that’s important to always give people. That’s why I brought it up. We need examples of that all the time of saying, you know what? Some people need defending for, and you don’t need to jump in with the rest of the other crew.

Vince

But it’s not hard to defend somebody if you’re not also saying out of the side of your mouth, you should feel like I do. I don’t care if you do or not. But don’t hate me because I have a different viewpoint than you do. But we’ve gotten to that point where, sadly, I got a song I wrote where it talks about, it’s a song called The Whole World. Basically says it feels like the whole world’s got a broken heart. We sure could use a brand new start. How the hell did we wind up so far apart? It’s like the whole world’s got a broken heart. In that song, there’s a line that says, I’ll never hate you if we disagree, because brother, you’re breathing the same air as me. And that’s how I feel about all these things. I’m not trying to pick a fight. I’m not trying to say you’re wrong. I’m not trying do any of those things, I stick up for what I think is decent, what’s fair, and kind.

Tricia

We’ll get back to the second half of our conversation in a moment, but right now, I want to tell you about our sponsor, Interabang Books, a Dallas-based independent bookstore which was named one of the country’s top five bookstores by Publishers Weekly. They have a fabulous curated online collection and it’s just as easy to shop with them as it is with Amazon. Who doesn’t want to support an independent bookstore? Please show them some love and check them out at interabangbooks.com. That’s Interabang, I-N-T-E-R-A-B-A-N-G, books.com.

Tricia

The other thing that you do though, is you inject an awful lot of empathy out there in the world, right? And so, I mean, your song, I mean, you’re a great songwriter obviously, but there’s so much empathy for other people in those songs. So, in your Oki album, you know, there’s two songs, Forever Changed, which is around sexual abuse. And then there’s…What Choice Will You Make about teen pregnancy. I mean, I listen to both those songs. I’m like, how does he, how is he channeling this? It’s something. They’re very, very powerful songs. I think though what’s important about what, there’s another reason why I wanted to have you on the show, is that you will address, not necessarily controversial, but you will address difficult topics in your songs that other people may stay away from. Not necessarily to have a judgment, you’re right, you’re wrong but to start a conversation.

Vince

Well, I think that it all stems from nobody likes to be preached at. Nobody likes to be told what to do, how to think, how to do it, or any of those things. Amy and I struggle with it too in life. Just don’t tell me what to do.

Tricia

Yeah. Yes, I’m familiar with that too.

Vince

It’s okay, you it’s you know, you can have conversations like that if you’re respectful and if you have grace and if you if you’re not trying to just – with your only point being I want you to feel like I do. Everybody everybody likes being around like-minded people. Yeah, you know, it’s secure.  

Tricia

Everybody’s in an echo chamber.

Vince

Yeah kind of and once again that song you mentioned about, you know, What Choice Will You Make about a young girl that gets pregnant. And the song is basically what choice will you make. And the beauty of the song is it never chooses. It never picks a side. It never tells you what you should do, what you shouldn’t do. And it doesn’t preach at you. And the girl I wrote that with, Leslie Satcher, is a very big time believer, you know, and very pro-life and all that. And so it was interesting kind of in writing that song with having to hold her back just a hair, you know? And go, hey, let’s not make this about what we think should happen. Let’s just paint the scenario and not have to answer the question.

Tricia

And again, like most, a lot of your songs, it’s very cinematic. And so when you’re listening to it, you can picture this young woman and you can see what she’s going on. And the lyric is what choice will make, what choice will make whose heart will you break, whatever you choose, you’ll wear on your face. YOu know, I just, it just about – makes me tear up just thinking about it.

Vince

Granny said if your eyes leak your head won’t swell.

Tricia

Anyway, and I think that’s one of the things that good stories can do as a storyteller, good songwriters can do. I think they give us vessels. It’s like, Go Rest High on That Mountain is a vessel for everybody’s grief, right? You’re sort of giving as a gift to say, to process things and process how we feel about things.

Vince 

Yeah, and that song is really not a sad song. It’s a celebratory song. It’s a song of hope, you know, and that’s kind of where it came from for me. I’m not the biggest church guy in the world. 

Tricia

So I’ve heard.

Vince

Amy married me. Everybody thinks I’m, you know, like Amy is and I’m not. You know, didn’t go to church much as a kid. And I feel it’s all up for discussion. Until you know, you don’t know. But yeah, most people hear Go Rest High on that Mountain, because of the way it’s treated musically, it sounds melancholy and it sounds sad. And it is, it’s about a sad subject, but the hopefulness in it and the joy in it is really there, if you listen to the words.

Tricia

Yeah. Is it hard? I mean, I got raised my whole life. You’re too sensitive. You’re too whatever. Which happens to be why I’m good at what I do. I am sensitive. But when I was growing up, it was not really the thing that people necessarily were celebrating. And it’s hard for me sometimes to be this sensitive because there’s so much to take in that’s hard. Is it hard for you to navigate? Because you’re such a sensitive, empathetic, vulnerable person that comes through your work. Is it hard to navigate? Do you know what I’m saying? To be as sensitive as you are?

Vince

Well, it’s it’s, you know. I guess sometimes you find it’s hard to be honest, you know, because people will persecute you for it. People will tear you down and, but I don’t mind it.  You know, what I’m drawn to musically is the melancholy of it. You know, I want to be moved by music. I don’t want to be impressed by it. I don’t care how many notes you can sing. I don’t care how many shredding guitar playing notes you can play, I want to be moved by music. And that’s what I go to music for. It’s like therapy. When I go through a struggle of losing my father, losing my brother, or going through a divorce or what have you, I go to music. And that’s where my therapy is.

Tricia

Do you go to music to write it or listen to it?

Vince

Both, but more to write it. You know, I think that there are songs that compel me that other people do, obviously. I would have never learned to do this had it not been for a whole lot of inspiration of getting to hear great music, great singers, great musicians and all that great songs. So.

Tricia

How long does it take, I don’t even know if this is an answerable question, I was just watching on, when the California fires were happening, and I can’t remember the comedian’s name, but he was on Jimmy Fallon, and the night before his house had burned down, and he was already processing it through humor and writing jokes about it. How long does it take for you to have something happen and then you start writing a song about it? is there a..Is it an instantaneous thing? Is it a couple of weeks? How long does it take for you to begin to turn it into music?

Vince

I don’t know if there’s an answer to that. You just sit down and you play and you sing and you find a melody and what do you want to talk about, what do want to write about. I think that creativity is always spinning in my head. And I like, I love comedy. I love laughing at everything. And sometimes it’s inappropriate.

Tricia

It’s a release.

Vince

But it’s like, come on, man, you can’t draw a line and say, okay, you can’t go past that because that’s not funny. Well, yeah, if you can find something funny in it, it’s fair game. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah.

Tricia

Okay, so last night I got a sneak listen to a couple of songs that you’ve written, but one I feel like is an anthem. I was about to walk out the door at 11 o’clock at night and start marching. Can you talk a little bit about this new song, March On? Can you talk a little bit?

Vince

It’s um, the song’s called March On, March On and it’s all it really is is just kind of trying to be empathetic about the struggle that’s gone on for in our country for eons, you know, and whenever you bring that up and people that don’t feel like you do they can point out A, B, C, D, Y, blah blah.

Tricia

And we’re talking about racial equality.

Vince

You know, I grew up in a time when I started in seventh grade, we started integrating the schools. And the truth was the kids never had a problem. Which was kind of beautiful to discover and figure out. And I don’t think the kids of today have a problem. Just hanging on to all these old ways, you know, that I don’t know how it makes any sense, you know, that’s all. I’m not begrudging anybody that doesn’t want to feel that way. It’s fine, you know, but until, you know, what do they say? Never criticize a man until you’ve walked a mile in his shoes. Then you’re a mile away and you have his shoes.

Tricia

But let me, what’s your hope for that song? What’s your hope for that? I mean, I literally for me heard it one time and like, okay, I’m, you know, it was a very moving and motivating song. So what’s your hope for that song?

Vince

Well, I don’t know. I don’t have a goal for it. I just love doing the work. And I’ve learned through my lifetime that whatever happens, I have no control over. So I just hope people understand it’s not a knock on anybody. It’s not. It’s just the truth. I think the truth is the most compelling thing that there is on earth.

Tricia

Yes.

Vince

And if you could find your way to it without feeling like you’re being scolded or you’re, you so I think there’s so many white people that think, you know, I didn’t do it. And that’s the standard answer. I didn’t have anything to with it. What you mad at me for? Well I’m not mad at you. Just saying this is, this is real and just have some sympathy for it. You know, maybe a little bit of, a little bit of heart for it, you know,

Tricia

But that’s a brave stance to take, Vince Gill. It’s not like everybody’s out there saying right now, be empathetic, try to understand. There’s not a lot of voices saying that. So that’s an important thing to be saying.

Vince

And that, know, once again, it’s, you know, I can’t, and for you to think you can control how somebody thinks is foolish, you know? But it’s a powerful song. And I remember there was a thing that was going on here in town with this young kid, Morgan Wallen, who’s blown up as a huge star in country music. And he used some language he probably regrets and they caught him doing it and put it out there and tried to cancel him and did a bunch of things. And I was doing an interview with CBS This Morning and they asked me about it. And I said, man, I don’t even know the kid, you know? So I’m not gonna jump on and bury him and be like that. I said, here’s how I feel about it. And I played him the song. And when it aired, the first person I heard from was Keb Mo, blues singer, my friend. And he just said, thank you. The text just said, thank you. I asked some friends that are black, I said, am I way off base here? And every one of them said, no, you couldn’t have told the truth any better and any kinder. I think that if you approach some of these subjects with a decency and a kindness about it that’s not

Tricia

Finger wagging.

Vince

shaming, nobody likes to feel like they’re being shamed, ever. They care who you are, what you are, any of that. And so that’s all I’m trying, I just, that’s my…there’s a great songwriter in our history named Tom T. Hall. He wrote a lot of great songs. And he made a statement that I thought was so profound. And they asked him about your perspective of writing songs. He goes, I’m just an observer. I’m writing from a place of observance. And I think I do too. Once again, if everybody wants to hold my feet to the fire and disagree and think I’m this and that, that’s their prerogative. I’m still gonna sleep tonight when I lay down. I feel that way, so I’m good.

Tricia

We always say it’s not about you, it’s about the message. So the message that you’re sending out is a really powerful one.

Vince

Well, know, kindness would solve every problem we have.

Tricia

Thanks for being a beacon for that. Okay, I have a couple more questions I want to ask you. Real quick, when do we get to hear March On? How long do we have to wait?

Vince

I don’t know. I’ve got a bunch of new music I’m working on. probably get rolled out over the next year. Okay.

Tricia

We’ll just keep us posted. You obviously have a high profile personality. I mean, you’re out there.

Vince

Used to.

Tricia

Well, it’s still there. I think I just saw you on TV the other night, if I’m not mistaken, celebrating 100 years of the Grand Ole Opry. I know you’re very involved in the Country Music Hall of Fame. I want you to talk about that devotion and dedication to something like the Country Music Hall of Fame and keeping and what I mean I know you’re very involved in All for the Hall which raises money for the educational fund and you know just is it Words and Music is that the program that is also kept alive by that?

Vince

It’s everything. Everything that has to do with the Country Music Hall of Fame.

Tricia

And so, you know, the rest of us may not have as big as a platform as you have, but we all have the ability to move the needle a bit in our world by giving back. And so I want to talk a little bit about that, how it matters to give back to organizations like that or causes like that, that even, and how that serves you as an artist.

Vince

Well, it’s simple. I have a great reverence of what came before me and a great respect of the reason I get to do what I do is because of the shoulders of the ones that came before me. I’m standing on them. They helped me. They were supportive of me, encouraged me, taught me, all those things. And it’d be real easy to go, hey, I’m killing it. I can get the big head. I’m pretty untouchable now. You can’t do this alone. It takes a village, they say, and it’s true. So that reverence that I have for the past is really important. I look back to those infant years of learning these songs and my father teaching me songs and my mom playing the harmonica and my grandma playing the piano. And it’s just etched so deep in my world that I can’t be any other way. You know, I have my heroes. You know, we all do, regardless of what it is you do. Some of them are baseball players, some of them are golfers, some of them are musicians, some of them are songwriters, and it’s singers, it’s all kinds of things.

Tricia

Well, I mean, I think that’s one of the things we’re trying to do on this show. I’m trying to is just put people in front of the community to say, here’s somebody, here’s a blueprint for how to be courageous and creative at the same time. And just because we can’t do this alone, we have to do it in community. And we need people to build us up as we go along. What do you have coming up next? I know you’re touring all summer. You’re going to be in Boston on May 17th. I’m going to try to be in the crowd. I am.

Vince

I’ll wave to you.

Tricia

Thank you. I wish you could recognize me. I’ll be in the front row. Vince. But what are you doing this summer? You’re touring all summer?

Vince

Yeah, I’m gonna go out for I think 35 dates with my band and you know, I’ve been touring with the Eagles for the last eight or nine years and with giving them the majority of my time, I haven’t been able to do much of my own career and my own creative 40 plus years of doing this, you know, as a solo artist. So I miss singing those songs. It’s that simple. I don’t have to work this summer and I decided I’d go out and knock around a bit.

Tricia

We look forward to you knocking around. Here’s the question I ask everybody. What do you need courage for right now?

Vince

Oh gosh, what do I need courage for right now? You know, I think courage and being an idiot are really, really, really close to each other.

Tricia

Okay, so what do need to be an idiot for right now?

Vince

Not much. Evidently I’m really good at it. You know I just I love living in the moment. I guess if I had and I have plenty, it seems like I have courage for that. So if I had to always be hopeful that I had the willingness to not look too far into the past or into the future I mean and back to the past that those things are nothing you can do about either one of those. So I live totally in the moment. I don’t plan anything and I’m not afraid of much.

Tricia

Vince, thank you so much. 

Vince

I don’t like flying so much.

Tricia

You don’t like flying?

Vince

I hate flying and I wish I had more courage when I fly. I talk like a sailor when I’m flying and there’s a little bump and all that.

Tricia

They have pills for that. You know you can medicate yourself.

Vince

I don’t do any that kind of medication stuff. I never even smoked any dope. I’m the only musician I know.

Tricia

Really? You never smoked any dope?

Vince

Never took any drugs. Straight laced. 

Tricia

Yeah, I’m not. I’m just too much of a control freak.

Vince

I was too afraid of my father. He’s been dead for 28 years. I’m still scared. He’ll come down from the clouds and get me.

Tricia 

I know that feeling. Vince, thank you so much for being on the show. I’m so delighted to be here. Thank you. 

Vince

Bye.

Tricia

Vince serves as a role model not only for courage and devotion to one’s craft, but also humility and kindness. And he got me asking some questions.

When it comes to your creativity, are you doing the sure thing or the right thing?

How are you judging your success?

Are you pushing yourself out of your element?

And finally, who are the folks in your village helping you make your work?

While we wait for Vince’s new music to be released, check out his performance of his song, March On. You can find his performance from CBS Mornings on YouTube or in the episode, Show Notes. We’ll have that clip and several more, including Go Rest High on That Mountain with Patti Loveless and Every Breath You Take with Sting. Find out more about Vince and check out his tour schedule at vincegill.com.

If you have the chance to see him perform live, you do not want to miss it. And if you want a really special treat, go see him at the Ryman in Nashville this August. Vince and Amy’s daughter, Corrina, will be his opening act. And believe me, that apple does not fall far from the tree.

Tricia

Thanks for joining us. If you have any questions, feel free to reach out to us at podcast@triciaroseburt.com. And if you liked this episode, please share it with one other person that you think will enjoy it. Then maybe talk to them about the parts that resonate. It really helps build our audience. And remember, this is no time to be timid.

No Time to Be Timid is written and produced by me, Tricia Rose Burt. Our episodes are produced and scored by Adam Arnone of Echo Finch. And our executive producers are Amy Grant, Nancy Perot, and Sage Wheeler. I’d also like to thank contributors to my Fractured Atlas Fiscal Sponsorship, which helps make this podcast happen. No Time to Be Timid is a presentation of I Will Be Good Productions.

You can change yourself and change the world. It’s no time to be timid if you haven’t heard. You can find what’s true, that’s what you deserve. It’s no time to be timid if you haven’t heard. Let’s go!

Take Aways

• Persistence is key in pursuing your dreams.
• Community support can make a significant difference.
• Courage is needed to embrace change and growth.
• The journey of entrepreneurship is filled with learning opportunities.
• Dreaming big can lead to unexpected adventures.

Resources

• Learn more about Chef Finigan and Aragosta at Goose Cove here.
• Follow them on instagram.

And other resources of note:

• Savannah College of Art and Design (SCAD)
• Eliot Coleman of Four Season Farm
• Dan Barber, Stone Barns
• Thomas Keller, Per Se

Transcript

I’m Devin Finigan, chef owner of Aragosta at Goose Cove, and this is No Time to be Timid.

Tricia  (00:22)

Hey there, I’m Tricia Rose Burt, and in this podcast, we talk to artists who show us how to find the courage to take risks, step out of our comfort zones, and use our creativity to make our work and change our world. Pay close attention, because this is no time to be timid.

Hey there and welcome to the show. As you heard in our last episode, my sweet mother, Sadie B., died on April 15. Thanks to my listeners who’ve reached out with your condolences. I’m sad for me, but happy for Mama. She was 94 years old, ready to go, and she lived large!

Now my mother would have never called herself an artist, but she was always making something. Many of our friends sent wedding invitations addressed in her exquisite calligraphy, still sleep under afghans she knitted, and drank gallons of her Brandy Bubbles that she made every holiday. Most importantly, Mama loved food. To her, food was the solution to most everything. It brought comfort, connection, and community.

Number six on the No Time to be Timid Manifesto is “Practicality is overrated.” In the spirit of that principle, Mama had nearly a thousand cookbooks – and if you’re in the market for a cookbook, let me know – and experimenting with new recipes was her passion. She’s actually in one of those cookbooks, the cookbook from Palma Ceia Presbyterian Church. Her recipe for curried chicken cups is on page 16. And also on that page is scripture, Matthew 15:32 that says, “I will not let them leave hungry.” And that perfectly describes Sadie B. She never let anyone leave hungry.

I haven’t lived in my hometown of Tampa since 1987. When I lived in Ireland, Mama would bring me Cuban sandwiches wrapped like Christmas presents so she could get them past the customs agents. And every time I came to visit Mama over the past nearly 40 years, she made sure I left with either a bag of frozen collard green soup or a frozen batch of her fabulous crab meat spaghetti sauce. Even though I lived 1,500 miles away, Mama was still feeding me.

Towards the end of her life, when her memory was not what it once was, whenever I came to visit, I tried to cook something for her. And one time I said, Mama, I’m gonna make you some chili and it has a special ingredient in it. And she said, is it chocolate? And I said, ew, no. And she said, Tricia Rose, go into my den, get the Cleveland Junior League cookbook, look in the stew section and there’s a recipe for chili with chocolate in it. She could not remember what she had for lunch that day, but she remembered where that chili recipe was.

Mama would have loved this episode’s guest, the remarkable chef, Devin Finigan, owner and chef of Aragosta in Maine. Chef Finigan never went to culinary school, but that didn’t stop her. Just like my mother, Devin says, “I just love to make people feel comfortable and loved through food.” She’s been nominated for a James Beard Award, collaborated with celebrated chefs all over the world, and defined herself and her voice within the community of Deer Isle, Maine and the culinary community at large. All along the way, Devon’s taken risks after risks and they’ve all paid off. Aragosta was recently named the number two restaurant on Food and Wine’s Top 20 US Tastemakers list.

In this interview, Devon shares some of the secrets to her success, which include the importance of staying true to your vision, sharing the story behind your work, collaborating with local artisans, stepping way out of your league, and never giving up on your dream, no matter how daunting the obstacles.

Chef Finigan could have written the No Time to be Timid Manifesto herself. Prepare to be inspired.

Devin, thank you so much for joining us.

Devin (04:18)

Thanks for having me. I’m so excited to be here.

Tricia  (04:21)

The only thing that would make this better is if we were sitting in your restaurant right now having a meal.

Devin (04:26)

Absolutely. Soon enough. Soon enough.

Tricia  (04:28)

We go every summer to our friend Tim Donovan, who’s the one who told us about your restaurant. He was also the first guest of the podcast. Season one, episode one was Tim Donovan.

Devin

Wow. Awesome.

Tricia

And we have gone for several years. In fact, we did not go, but walked past Aragosta when it was in its first version right there on the harbor.

Devin (04:49)

Yeah, my first location.

Tricia  (04:58)

But before we even get into that, I like to talk to people who got where they are from sort of an unconventional path. Like they didn’t necessarily know they were going to end up doing this particular thing. For the show, we’ve created a thing called the No Time to Be Timid Manifesto that has different points to it. Like the first one is “The riskiest thing you can do is play it safe.” And the second one is “There is more than one way in life.” And what I’m interested in for you is that 20 years ago, more than 20 years ago, you went to Savannah College of Art and Design with the intention of photography. And so tell me what that motivation was and then why you dropped out.

Devin (05:31)

Yeah, I always loved taking photographs. And it was kind of my niche in Vermont, driving down the country roads and just taking photos. And one of my sisters was going to Savannah, to SCAD. And I had been there and I love Savannah. And I thought, well, I’ll just do photography. And so I went and I had a great time doing it. But I suddenly found myself missing the passion that was inside of me, which was cooking. And I would cook for her. I was, you know, always going to the farmer’s market, seeing what was available. My dad is a chef, so I was the one that worked in the restaurant with him. I never thought I would be a chef. Never thought that that was the path I would choose. But then I realized that that’s really what I love to do.

Tricia  (06:26)

Like when was the moment you knew that? When did the penny drop and go, wait a second, this actually is what I want to do here.

Devin (06:32)

I think after I had met my now ex-husband, but my husband at the time, and we started having dinner parties and really becoming this host. So it was when I moved, when I moved back to Maine and I had bought a sailboat randomly before I went to college. And so I had this tie to Stonington and I had this like vision of, you know, what, where I wanted to be in it. And honestly, it wasn’t in Savannah at that time. So I was figuring like I’m spending a lot of money being here. And then I just decided to move to Maine after you know I was done with the year of schooling.

Tricia  (07:12)

So you were there for a year, just about a year, and that you’re like, photography, food, photography, food, food was really calling to you.

Devin (07:20)

It was calling to me and I feel like I realized that I just love to make people feel comfortable and loved through food. And with my photography, you know, I’m, I’m a pretty artistic person. 

Tricia  (07:34)

That’s pretty clear. Pretty clear.

Devin (07:49)

I can put that on a plate, you know, and I can plate a dish and, and, you know, I think of that dish as art and so I really started to go with that.

Tricia  (07:51)

You’re composing what the food looks like on the plate. It’s like a little tiny painting every time you send it out.

Devin (07:59)

Yeah, it’s like my palette, you know? Yeah, my canvas.

Tricia  (08:03)

Yeah, Adam and I were talking about this earlier. He was, cause he’s a musician and he was wondering, like, how do you, when you’re making dishes, it’s like, are you, are you making a hundred songs every night? Like, are you making a hundred paintings every night? Like what’s your relationship to it when you’re creating an actual dish? How does it feel like art to you?

Devin (08:21)

Well, yeah, of course. All of a sudden I have this like vision. There’s a lot of visions with me. I have a vision of, you know, Aragosta at Goose Cove. I have a vision of a dish. This vision of the dish, sometimes I draw it out, you know. Other times I cook multiple, we’ll just say it’s a duck breast, right? I’ll cook three duck breasts and then I’ll plate that dish three different ways until it’s kind of right to where I want it. And then where it’s, where it looks good to me, then I show people. Obviously it needs to taste good, but it also, I mean, people, the first thing they’re gonna see is the dish before they put anything in their mouth. So it needs to be aesthetically pleasing. So I do a lot of, certainly on my off season, I have a lot of journals. I do a lot of reading. I do a lot of, you know, I try to travel and see what other people are doing. And that’s like, that’s a fun way to do it.

Tricia  (09:15)

You do a lot of rough sketches, so nobody else gets to see those, just you and the staff as you’re cooking these duck breasts or whatever it is. And then you sort of get them solidified in a way. So when you’re back there, there’s not a guess. It’s like, you know what that vision is going to look like on that plate.

Devin (09:32)

Yeah,and sometimes it’s great to have my team because you know, we’ll plate a dish and then I’ll, I want their input, you know, I’m a big advocate of team. These chefs that I’ve created that work alongside me, they’re all talented. And so I want their input and they’re like, well, maybe, you know, the sauce over here. So we’ll replate it again. You know, there’s never a bad answer. And sometimes I’m like, yeah, I hear what you’re saying but I like it this way, you know. It’s, at the end of the day, it’s like what feels and looks right to me.

Tricia  (10:06)

Well, it’s your vision and you’ve got creative control. So, you know, you have the input from people. I mean, it’s the same work that I’ve done as well. And, you know, we do have a vision and sometimes the vision gets complimented by other people or sometimes other people’s input can make me go, no, I’m actually more certain about my vision than I was before. You it just helps you solidify it. That’s fascinating that you try it out first. Like you have these rough sketches first.

Devin (10:34)

Yeah, I do. And I have many journals and it’s interesting, you know, it’s fun to look at those journals and see how it’s actually come to life. You know, we did this spread for the last couple of years that we called the ode to the season. So like when we would open and it would be ode to spring and it all came from reading one of my daughter’s, this children’s book. And it was about a Japanese young chef. It was, you know, a kid’s book and it was about Kaiseki and their spread of you know all these different plates and I took that kid’s book and then started sketching my idea of what that would be and for the last three years we’ve been running an ode to whatever season we’re in and it was so fun to have that story. Another thing, like to have stories to tell the waitstaff, to tell the chefs like, how did I get to this dish. Well, there’s a story behind it. I think that’s important.

Tricia  (11:30)

I’m a storyteller for a living. That’s what I do, is teach people how to tell their stories. And it just makes an experience far richer if you know what’s the story behind something. I swear it probably makes the food taste better. But I also love the idea that it came from a children’s book.

Devin (11:42)

Yeah, I know. And I, you know, I bought that book, it’s down on our shelf. And so to see those old sketches, and then to see how far the ode has evolved is pretty cool. And, and, you know, scallop dishes, I always, I’m always jotting, you know, oysters, there’s always some, something I’m sketching in my journal. And it’s fun, I’ll show my chef, sometimes I won’t, I’ll be like, I’ll plate that dish, and they’re gonna wonder where it came from.

Tricia  (12:17)

When you were at SCAD, did you have any drawing classes that helped or were you just a natural, could you naturally sketch and draw?

Devin (12:23)

I mean, I’m not gonna say I’m a fabulous drawer, but I’m always doodling. It was more like color theory, the base classes at that point at SCAD. But no, I mean, I took art class through my prep school years, but I was never the artist in my family, but I was always in the garden. I have interior decorating.

Tricia  (12:51)

Yeah, I’m going to challenge that idea of artist. You know, and I think that that’s a good point to bring up because one of the, I mean, I’ve always wanted to have a chef on the show because your medium is food. And that’s what I think is really interesting is what does that mean? You can be an artist and your medium is business for goodness sakes. I mean, just thinking out of the box of what it means to be an artist and what you’re creating, because if we love something, we tend to be very creative with it and about it.

Devin (13:19)

Absolutely. And like, you know, living on this magical property on the coast of Maine, just, the inspiration I get from just walking around the property and seeing, you know, certain things that are budding. It’ll make me think, well, that, you know, that rosebud could pair really well with quail or, you know. It’s being in nature and seeing the ingredients that really gets me inspired. I’m such an advocate to be outside. And I think it’s important. And with the seasons, you know, I know that when I, I know that when I get my first halibut from the fishermen and I have that smell of fish on me, I know that, I know that we’re here into spring. I know that spring brings rhubarb and it brings nettles and it brings, you know, first of the season carrots. And it’s just, it’s like this storybook that opens every year and living in Maine, it’s essentially the same ingredients every season, right? But it’s being creative with those ingredients and knowing what we’ve done and knowing what people like, but also, you gotta keep evolving as a chef. You gotta keep pushing yourself and trying new techniques. And, and that’s just really important. I feel like I push my staff to try new things and to learn and go and we travel, you know, I think it’s how we keep growing.

Tricia  (14:48)

Well, there’s been a lot of travel. I mean, as I’ve been researching you of course before the interview, and you’ve done a lot of travel and you’ve also really sought out very accomplished chefs to learn from and so talk about that journey of, cause I think as artists to really grow, travel is so key. And also, who are our mentors? Who are our teachers? Who can we learn from and who can push us and help us be more creative and more curious and ask the right questions? And so talk about that part of you that really wants to grow and learn and know.

Devin (15:22)

So when I first realized that I wanted to be a chef, I was like, okay, I want to go to the best places. You know, I didn’t go to culinary school. That didn’t stop me though. No time to be timid, right? I was out of my league. I had met connections through various people that, you know, it got me to be able to go to Per Se. So I’m in Per Se, a three Michelin star, you know, restaurant Thomas Keller, you know, and I’m with all these talented chefs that went to culinary school. And here I knew that for me, I’m a hard worker and I can pick, you know, I’m also aware of what’s going on. So I felt like putting myself in situations that I was uncomfortable, led me to grow, led me to open a door to then, okay, there’s Thomas Keller’s restaurant. Well, what about Dan Barber? Let’s go to Stone Barns, you know, let’s go to his smaller restaurant in the city. Again I mean, out of my league, right? I’m not from the city. You know, but I didn’t, I didn’t, I was bringing something else to the table. I was bringing that, I was coming from an area where we have the most famous seafood. We have the most famous farmers, you know, and I know all these people. And so I was in my mind, I was like, okay, I’m going to show them, you know, what they should be growing on the rooftop garden, you know, for garnish. So I think taking those risks

is really how i’ve gotten to where I am. i’ve taken a lot of risks in my path and a lot of scary decisions on signing leases you know with my first restaurant. I remember that day.

Tricia  (16:59)

The story about how you ended up in Logan Airport signing, I mean, please tell that story. This is fascinating.

Devin (17:08)

I was headed to go cook off the coast of Barcelona with this chef, Macarena de Castro, she, her restaurant is Hardin, two-star Michelin. She was like the rising female chef in Spain. And so I was headed, coming from Bangor Airport, changing flights in Logan, and I was in the Starbucks line. And I just started talking to the gentleman because I’m coming from Maine. Everyone’s pretty friendly here. So I was just talking and he was headed to Maine. And I asked him where and he said, oh a tiny town, you know, up the coast. And I said, well, where? And he said, Stonington. I said, whoa, what are you doing in Stonington? That’s where I live. He was going to put his building, his restaurant up for lease and he was going to do the walk around and put it in the paper. And I asked him if he had 30 minutes to sit and talk with me. And he did, Rudy. And he was great. And we just talked and we shook right there that he wasn’t going to put it in the paper. That he was going to wait for me. I was going for three weeks to go cook and I shook with him, went to go cook in Spain, came back four weeks later, opened Aragosta.

Tricia  (18:17)

That is so insane.

Devin (18:20)

The amount I learned that first night of service to the first week to the first year. It’s amazing! I mean at that point in my life that was the perfect restaurant for me. It was elegant. It was small. It had you know the deck. It had the location. And I just, it was great I am like so thankful for that but I remember signing that lease when I got back and it was a big decision. You know I didn’t know if we were going to have people. I didn’t know if Stonington needed a high-end restaurant. But that’s like, I mean, I’m also a dreamer, you know? So you gotta, for me, I gotta dream a little and take the risk and it’s paying off, I mean, for sure.

Tricia  (19:06)

Yeah. And what I love about you, even just to back up even a little bit when you were talking about, you know, taking the risk and, and working with these chefs who were very accomplished. I love how you were thinking though, this is what I’m bringing. It wasn’t like, I’m sort of at the mercy of their greatness or whatever. Here’s the value I’m bringing, this is what I’m bringing to the table, which I think is such an interesting way, an important way to go into relationships like that, is to say, yes, I’m gonna learn so much, but I’m actually, I have value that I can teach you as well, from my own experience. I think that, that’s a huge difference to think that way, you know? But also just, you know, the chutzpah to say, I’m gonna sign this lease and we’re gonna make this happen, because it’s a lot.

Devin (19:54)

It’s a lot. was a lot and it was a big decision. I, yeah, I’m so proud that that came upon how it did. And, you know, I realized probably three years in after I had my first daughter, my third year open, that I was like, OK, we’re like we max the capacity of this restaurant. Now I’m a mom. The thought of living on property was kind of the next goal for me. And then I started doing my research and figuring out where that might be.

Tricia  (20:29)

So let me ask you this before we get into version two of Aragosta. What is one of the things you learned that was like wowza?

Devin (20:35)

Trying to train a staff the first night open, you know, we were, I mean now thinking of it wasn’t really that busy. Maybe thirty covers but they all sat at once. I think we learned about staggering reservations. I think we learned, you know how to plate oysters quicker than you know let’s get a little better at shucking. Just you know being in a new kitchen and it’s one thing to prep and get yourself ready for service it’s another thing to be in service and having that flow continue. One thing that I can say about me as far as a chef, I’m a pretty good expediter. It’s like I can run the flow of the restaurant and I am aware of what’s going on. And, you know, I have leaders in the front of house, but it all has to work in sync. Otherwise, you know, one of, you know, it doesn’t, and then food is cold or guests are unhappy or whatnot. But, you know, just learning the new flow of a kitchen and learning, okay, this is what we’re going to do different tomorrow. You know, we’re going to set the salad station up over here, we’re going to change the oysters over here. Then, you know, after that first week, it was like my first payroll. And then I was like, Whoa, okay, you just don’t, you just don’t pay people by the hour, you got to match federal and state and it was just very eye opening to me.

Tricia  (22:00)

It’s the business part of the artistry and it takes all of us. I mean, I’m like, wait, what? I mean, can I just make the stuff? Do I actually have to do this back end? It does sneak up on you.

Devin (22:10)

Absolutely.

Tricia  (22:39)

We’ll get back to the second half of our conversation in a moment, but right now I want to tell you about our sponsor, Interabang Books, a Dallas-based independent bookstore, which was named one of the country’s top five bookstores by Publishers Weekly. They have a fabulous curated online collection and it’s just as easy to shop with them as it is with Amazon. Who doesn’t want to support an independent bookstore? Please show them some love and check them out at interabangbooks.com. That’s Interabang, I-N-T-E-R-A-B-A-N-G, Books.com.

Tricia

So you max out and you say, I need to grow into a space that’s larger where I can be on property. How did you find where you are now in Goose Cove?

Devin (23:58)

So I, at that time, now my second daughter, Emmylou, is born. And so we have two little girls, Luke and I, and these big, massive dogs. And we used to bring them down to Goose Cove in the winter to go run on the beach. And it was always closed down. I noticed, you know, we would come every year that there were oil bins that never moved and broken windows that were never attended to. And I was like, what is this magical place that’s like run down? And so I started, you know, figuring out who owns the property and what was going on here. And through Eliot Coleman – who Four Season Farm, he’s like the legend of organic farming – he introduced me to my investor. What I’m going to tell you next – I just never gave up, you know? I emailed my investor and pitched this whole idea on this email and he said, no thanks. And that was in January and he told me no. And I was like, okay, that’s okay. You know, I was sad, but I was like, okay, well too bad. And then I knew that he summered in Deer Isle in the summer. And so it was the following season. I had emailed him in January and in July I was like, well, I’m just going to invite him to dinner. He should meet me, you know. And so I invited him to Stonington and that was the first time I had eaten at my restaurant. And that dinner was great. I was so nervous. I was so nervous to like, you know, try to pitch myself to someone who, I mean, he’s an incredible man making dreams happen for real, but, it was fun to meet with him and he, he’s so humble and just to like, tell him my vision. And, but it didn’t happen right away. It was four years of being very patient and persistent and just keeping in contact, reminding him that I still had that vision of Goose Cove. And then finally, my lease is up in Stonington. I was either gonna sign another six years of that location, or I was going to move forward with Goose Cove. And I finally called my investor and said, listen, the living in limbo, it’s hurting my soul, is what I told him. I said, I either need to move forward or I’ll just stay in Stonington. And that’s what it took. And then that was in November, right before Thanksgiving. And then January 10 of 2019, we got the keys to the property. It was amazing. I drank a lot of champagne that day.

Tricia  (26:39)

But you know what, we had a woman on the show in season three, her name is Laura Wilson, and she, it took her four years, she’s a photographer, took her four years to get a picture of Cormac McCarthy, who had not been photographed in 20. And she just kept showing, going from this angle, this angle, this angle, this angle, and just kept at it, and then got these amazing shots that no one’s gotten, and he hadn’t been photographed in 20 years. So it’s that same persistence that you had. You just keep the communication open and you believe in your dream and you believe in yourself and you just keep at it. That’s fantastic.

Devin (27:19)

Yeah, it was a happy, happy day.

Tricia  (27:22)

And also a year before COVID.

Devin (27:24)

A year before COVID. When I opened in Stonington, my only investor was my husband. We had like, you know, a small amount of money and he was like, here you go. And that was a turnkey restaurant. Goose Cove was not, was, you know, it’s 21.9 acres, nine cabins, roofs falling down in these cabins, a restaurant that is just dirty, dingy, you know, not up to code. We went into full renovation. I learned a lot about a budget. I learned a lot about, you know, I would love that light fixture, but it’s not in my budget. I learned a lot about using the local community. And that’s really where I learned. I used every local person I could possibly think of, because I knew that I was given this gift essentially of having an investor that, you know, we’re investing in this property, but I’m able to use a local potter to make my dishes for the restaurant. I’m able to use a local woodworker to build this beautiful communal table or to build, you know, saloon doors. And it was, it was, I mean, we tore down buildings, but a lot of it was not fun. It was like plumbing and electric.

Tricia  (28:40)

It’s the stuff that isn’t sexy, that just kills you.

Devin (28:42)

Like all of a sudden I’m like, whoa, that like really affected my budget. But it also showed my investor that, okay, she does have a vision. And that gave him, you know, I think that just encouraged him that, you know, maybe I’ll help her a little more. And then when he started to understand, like he started to trust me, you know, we didn’t know each other. He had a dream of this property and I’ve made that dream come true. And he tells me that all the time. And like the feeling I have hearing that it’s incredible.

Tricia  (29:15)

It’s such a great example of collaboration, you know, and I know, you know, I have people who are believing in me, which is why this podcast is able to happen, right? And when you have someone who believes in you or is helping you make a dream happen and you end up helping their dreams come true, there’s this wonderful collaboration that takes place and it requires trust. And it does require having them go, man, they’re serious about this. They do have, you know, and so it really seems like you delivered. But I also love this in all of the conversation with you, one of the lines, again, in the manifesto is constraints are opportunities. And every time you have a constraint, you make that work for you. And so I think that’s such part of your success. A lot has been, I’m going to work within the seasons and what’s available during the season. I’m going to work within this, you know, I have this budget and so I’m going to work within this community of local artisans, which makes it an even richer, more beautiful. I mean, I’ve been to your restaurant. It’s exquisite.Well, there is a feeling that it is so part of the fabric of Maine and of that space. I mean, it’s just so rooted in the landscape and it all feels like everyone is vested, right? Does that make sense? 

Devin (30:38)

Absolutely.

Tricia  (30:41)

It almost feels like an installation piece. It’s exquisitely done. You have a great sense of aesthetic. If our listeners – go – but I sat at the bar to have a three course meal and there is a wall covering behind the bar that is exquisite. It’s that gold metallic. What is it made out of even?

Devin (30:44)

I mean, that’s wallpaper.

Tricia  (31:07)

It looks, it’s wallpaper and it looks like it’s… 

Devin (31:11)

It’s mermaid scales.

Tricia

Yeah, I mean it’s extraordinary.

Devin

I wanted to do it in tile, but that wasn’t in the budget. So it’s okay.

Tricia  (31:19)

It looks like it’s something far richer than wallpaper, is my point. You’ve used these constraints and made it work for you, even more creative. And allowing these local craftspeople to be a part, I mean, it’s just, it has to be beloved within the community because so many people are part of it.

Devin (31:43)

Absolutely. I mean, it’s full circle, right? Encourage an artist, you know, multiple artists, and then, you know, they’ll come and dine or though it’s word of mouth here. So I always think, you know, full circle, what you give, you’ll receive back. I remember our opening menu, I had all the artists on the back of the menu, and it was a lot. It was so great. Yeah, and then COVID happened. We were like, whoa.

Tricia  (32:10)

And how did you manage to get through COVID? Just briefly, did you just – lot of curbside pickup?

Devin (32:16)

A lot of curbside pickup, but like fancy curbside pickup, you know, with like little, our, our like Aragosta, I had never plated in boxes before, but we figured it out, you know? And that was great. And then that’s the following year is, I took, you know, 60 seats out of my dining room and presented a tasting menu because I knew that if we weren’t going to do the amount of, of covers each night, we had to figure out something in order to survive.

And I actually wanted to open Aragosta at Goose Cove with the tasting menu, but  my investor was like, let’s get people excited about the community. Let’s get them coming to the restaurant. And he was right. I mean, I like, I will listen to anything he says, you know, and that year is the year we were nominated for the James Beard. And then COVID happened and it was just like, holy cow. But we did well. We’re still here.

Tricia  (33:09)

So you did have a year of being a normal restaurant and people came in and then you had COVID and you had to do the tap dance that everybody did. And then when you came back, you could – now explain to my audience what you mean when you say a tasting venue.

Devin (33:13)

So our tasting menu, it’s essentially a 13-course menu and it takes you on the coast of Maine. You know, it starts with the cold sea, oysters, scallops, crab, headed into warmer lobster pasta, the ode to spring or ode to summer, whatever that ode is into, you know meats. I tend to not have a lot of meat on my menu just because the ocean is literally my backyard but if you’re a meat eater you do like meat. We have a wood fired hearth in the kitchen. We cook over live wood so that you know pairs really lovely with meat so and then you head into you know sorbet a palate cleanser into dessert into like a little you know little treat at the end. It’s an experience. It’s like three hours. But we also offer a bar menu which is three-course which you had.

Tricia  (34:08)

And that’s what I did. And for me, it was very funny. We were sitting at the bar and this Caesar salad came and I looked at my husband. I’m like, what is happening? Like, why is this salad the most exquisite thing I’ve ever eaten? And that’s why I asked the person behind the bar. I’m like, who’s the chef? Like, how can this, like what? And you were so sweet and you came out. But do you often look at things like a normal Caesar salad dressing and say, I could make that lots better. Or do you tend to make things from scratch different or will you look like a classic and improve on it? What do you tend to?

Devin (34:54)

I mean, the classics are the classics. I tend to just really cook with not trying to mask ingredients and more highlight the ingredients. So when you had that Caesar salad, it was mackerel season. And when we get mackerel, we get a lot of mackerel. So what can we do? And we were getting these beautiful gem lettuce from the farm. And so I thought, well, everyone loves a Caesar salad, right? So we have this mackerel. So essentially I’m thinking about the classics and I’m thinking about how can I do a twist on that, right? And now, I mean, that recipe is in my cookbook. I just finished writing. So that’s like great.

Tricia  (35:37)

When does the cookbook come out? Is it already out?

Devin (35:40)

No, spring of 2026.

Tricia  (35:42)

Heads up to everybody. Let us know if there’s a place to pre-order. We can put all that in the show notes.

Devin (35:47)

I surely will. That was quite a job.

Tricia  (35:51)

Just to recap what you do, you know, one of your mediums is food. You’re also a master certified gardener as well. So you have that going. You’ve renovated and now you’ve slipped in you’re an author because you’ve done this cookbook. Did you do that on your own? Is it just a list of recipes? Were you writing stories? Did someone help? Like, how did that work?

Devin (36:14)

I co-authored it with a gentleman, Peter Kaminsky. I had met Peter through a friend and Peter, you know, used to write for the New York Times for like 30 years. And he has written so many cookbooks, some of the best cookbooks. And if he’s not writing about cooking, he’s writing about fly fishing. And we just really had a connection when I met Peter. And then we were like, okay, let’s – so Peter’s my voice. I’m the chef. I do the recipes. He’s my voice. He came through so lovely. It’s been, I mean, we’re going on three and a half years working on this cookbook. It wasn’t a quick thing. There were times where I was like, what did I get myself into? Because throwing recipe testing in the midst of August in a busy kitchen, because you have to recipe test with the ingredients that you’re putting in the cookbook, it was a lot. Last summer was our summer where we shot the whole cookbook.

Tricia  (37:10)

I was going to say, did your photography come into play?

Devin (37:13)

Well, more just the plating, we have Will Hereford. He’s the photographer for the cookbook. Now a great friend. He is so talented and I met him through Peter and he’s the best. I just went down and cooked at his wife’s restaurant in Uruguay this past January. So fun. It was really a learning process and it was fun to see. The shots are beautiful. My kids are in the book. You know, Food and Wine came. We did a whole photo shoot with them and part of that’s in the cookbook. Yeah, I’m pretty relieved that I don’t need to cook, shoot the cookbook this summer. That was like phew!

Tricia  (37:50)

Yeah. You know, but you have an eye for it though. You have an eye for it. I was reading the article in Food and Wine and it says that you, there’s a line in there that says, you went from muffin baker and pancake flipper to chef in her own restaurant, which I love that narrative arc of how you have really grown in this role. A question for you though, has it been tricky as a woman in this role?

Devin (38:17)

Absolutely. I feel like, I mean, I’ve always been a strong woman, but to be a boss, right? To be the boss and to be a woman. There’s some employees that haven’t worked out. You know, some people, gentlemen, men I’m thinking of, sometimes it’s hard for them to take, you know, orders from, from a female. Well, that’s too bad, but you’re not going to work for me. You know?

Tricia  (38:45)

Yeah.

Devin (38:45)

And that’s just the nature of the business. know, I feel like ⁓ as far as purveyors and farmers and fishermen, they’re great. I’ve never had a problem with them. Like they’re lovely. It’s more figuring out the staff. At the height of my season, you know, I have two entities. I have Aragosta, which is the restaurant, Aragosta at Goose Cove, which is the accommodations, because we’re not just a restaurant anymore. We were a place for people to stay. Um, we can house 40 guests, which is like amazing. And I have like, you know, close to 80 employees in the summer and which is like insane, but also I’m so proud of that. You know, I’ve come so far. Um, and I have, you know, 10 people on year round salaries, which is incredible. And this past season, other than shooting the cookbook, my oyster farm. So we have an exclusive oyster farm that took me four years.

Tricia  (39:42)

Wow, I didn’t know that!

Devin (39:44)

Yeah, so we have when I first got the property is when I started working on that with Luke and then I put a pause on it after we divorced and then I went back to it and it took me four years to get that oyster lease and so now we have exclusive Aragosta oysters that you can only eat here, which is so incredible.

Tricia

That’s fantastic.

Devin

I know. So fun. So you come back this summer and I’ll feed you those oysters.

Tricia  (40:13)

Yeah, no, yeah, we’re coming back. We’ll be back in July for sure, but I’m, you my husband’s doing a lot of traveling and I’m thinking I might just need a field trip up there just with myself to come on up. So, so I have two questions I want to ask you before I let you go. First of all, I know that you’re eager to get to Asia and Japan. Tell me about that dream to get there.

Devin (40:38)

Well, I would love to go this time of year when the cherry blossoms, because like, what a bucket list thing, you know? But the thing that draws me to Japan is just the simplistic flavors, you know? They’re so incredible in how they just highlight, you know, say this fish and very delicate, very delicate flavors. I just want to go to Japan and eat my way through Japan, you know?

Tricia  (41:06)

Can I please go with you because it is so on my bucket list. Well, just the aesthetics of Japan, the food of Japan, just everything about Japan is exquisite.

Devin (41:18)

It brings like just thinking about – there’s this calmness that I would really love to, I think we all Americans need more of that calm way in our life. And just so respectful of the ingredient and the people. it’s just a really incredible way to live I imagine and I would love to go experience that.

Tricia  (41:42)

Yeah, yeah. All right, okay. So this is the question I ask all of my guests. What do you need courage for right now?

Devin (41:52)

What do I need courage for right now? I feel like I always need courage this time of year to know that I’m headed into a busy season and that means that I am not going to get that nighttime with my kids to be honest. You know, that is a balance. I’m a single mama raising two little girls and I always need courage for that. I feel like, but for business, you know, the courage to just start working 90 hours a week, right? Because I have an incredible staff and an incredible team, we’ve been talking recipes and menus this whole winter, you know, we always meet and talk about it, but just the courage to start all the spring things that need to happen. There’s quite a list, you know, there’s a big list every year. And, amazingly enough, we get it done. And I feel like for me, I need more courage on just being better with myself personally, like, you know, having time to just like, to just have that personal time. Once I start working, it’s really hard for me to stop working. So just more courage to have more time to just me. And that and having that time, it’ll make everything better, right? It’ll make the food taste better. It’ll make the staff feel better. But it’s hard for me. I’m like a pretty I like hands-on and it’s hard to just walk away. So I’d like courage on getting better about that.

Tricia  (43:28)

Yeah. To refill the well. You’ve got to refill your well. So yeah, so we will be sending you courage to take care of yourself. You’re not the only one that needs that. Thank you so much, Devon, for being on the show. We’re so excited and we’ll put all the information in the show notes because it is a beautiful experience to go to Aragosta. And what you’ve created there is just beautiful. And thank you for your commitment from starting from the very beginning. You it’s been, I mean, you can look back and know how many years now since 2019 or 2013

Devin (44:11)

2013  from its original version, 

Tricia

You know, so you can look back and go, wait, I’m pretty good at this. And that’ll give you the courage to keep going, I hope.

Devin

Absolutely. We’re not going anywhere. But thank you so much. It’s been a pleasure. Nice seeing you.

Tricia  (44:26)

Thank you. We’ll talk again soon.

Devin (44:28)

Okay, thank you.

Tricia  (44:42)

There is no question Mom would have bought one of Chef Finigan’s cookbooks and I hope all of you will too when it comes out next season. In the meantime, here are some questions to think about. What are your visions and how do you realize them? What’s the story behind your work? And how are you taking risks and pushing yourself way out of your league? For more information on Aragosta at Goose Cove or to make a reservation to eat or stay, go to aragostamaine.com. And get this –Food and Wine just ranked at number two on the top 10 US hotels for food and drink. And you can follow Aragosta on Instagram at aragosta.maine.

Thanks for joining us. If you have any questions, feel free to reach out to us at podcast@triciaroseburt.com. And if you liked this episode, please share it with one other person that you think will enjoy it. Then maybe talk to them about the parts that resonate. It really helps build our audience. And remember, this is no time to be timid.

No Time to Be Timid is written and produced by me, Tricia Rose Burt. Our episodes are produced and scored by Adam Arnone of Echo Finch. And our executive producers are Amy Grant, Nancy Perot, and Sage Wheeler. I’d also like to thank contributors to my Fractured Atlas Fiscal Sponsorship, which helps make this podcast happen. No Time to Be Timid is a presentation of I Will Be Good Productions.

Episode Summary

Shannon Cason is a master storyteller — seen on Snap Judgment, TEDx, and The Moth stages to name a few — and is the host of the podcast Homemade Stories. In his words, he’s also a late bloomer, and with his trademark wit, wisdom, and incredible sense of timing, he shares how the right perspective can turn life’s rough patches into life-changing art.

Resources:

• Check out Shannon’s website. 
• Watch his story Late Bloomer.
• Don’t miss My Father’s Camera.
• Learn from his TEDx talk.
• And subscribe to his podcast Homemade Stories.

Transcript

Tricia:

Hello everybody, thanks for joining us. We’re doing something a little unexpected this episode. As I knew it would happen at some point, my beloved 94-year-old mother died this week. And as a result, we’re going to run a wonderful episode from season two featuring the fabulous storyteller Shannon Cason. But tune in next time for a brand new episode which will be filled with mama spirit. Thanks for understanding. And remember, this is no time to be timid.

Shannon:

Hi, I’m Shannon Cason. I’m a writer and storyteller. I tell stories on stages, on pages, and on my podcast,  Shannon Cason’s Homemade. And I’ll tell you, this is no time to be timid.

Tricia:

Hey there, I’m Trisha Rose Burt, and in this podcast, we talk to artists who show us how to find the courage to take risks, step out of our comfort zones, and use our creativity to make our work and change our world. Pay close attention, because this is no time to be timid. 

Tricia: Welcome to the show. In this episode, we talk with Shannon Cason, one of the best storytellers I’ve ever heard — and I’ve heard a lot of storytellers — and host of the podcast Homemade Stories. Shannon is a master of the craft and he’s been on some of the most exciting stages — Snap Judgment, Ted X, and of course, The Moth, where he and I shared a stage back in 2016. I’ve been following him and his work ever since, and I just couldn’t wait to bring him on the show. I asked Shannon what he thought was the most important trait in sustaining a creative practice, and he said perspective — the attitude a person brings to their work and their life and how they handle the rough patches that come their way. And Shannon has had his fair share of rough patches, but with incredible wit and wisdom, he’s turned them into works of art that continue to change people’s lives. I’m so delighted you’re tuning in.

Tricia: Hey, Shannon. It’s so great to have you on the show. 

Shannon: I’m glad to be here. Glad to talk to you all the time. So good to hear from you. 

Tricia: Okay. So I have been listening to all things Shannon Cason to prepare for this show, which has just been a complete and total delight. And it’s all I can do not to just run the whole story, but you have a piece called Late Bloomer that you put on YouTube. And I’m going to do a quote from Late Bloomer, and then I want you to expound on it a bit. 

Shannon: My creative life didn’t start to my mid-thirties either. The seed was planted early, but it was in a small flower pot and it wasn’t until I was replanted into the bigger garden of Chicago that I really grew roots and sprang up out of the ground and I’m still growing even though it is late. That’s why I always encourage young people to go do something somewhere else as early as possible. Get away from home. Don’t wait. Start early. 

Tricia: I really encourage all of my listeners to go to Shannon Cason’s YouTube page. There are things that get flashed up in the middle of watching the YouTube story and in the middle of the Late Bloomer story, there’s a list of everyone who did things later in life, and at the end it was like Abraham and Sarah had a baby really, really old, which just let me crack up laughing. It was very funny. As someone who didn’t get in creative work until I was in my mid-thirties as well. I just wanted you to talk a little bit about how you even got into storytelling in the first place. 

Shannon: I’m from Detroit originally, so it’s like amazing creativity in Detroit, from music to, you know, arts to, you know, all kinds of different creativity. Because I think where you see a lot of struggle, you see creativity as well, you know, because the human spirit got to get out in some way. You know, if it’s if it’s some struggle, it’s gonna get out in a whole lot of different ways. So Detroit, Motown, I mean, going way back, you know, to gospel and all those things. Some of the greatest artists, I mean, a lot of different areas, but you see certain hotbeds around the country and Detroit is definitely a hotbed of creativity. And for me, Detroit was the creative heart of everything I do. Like that’s where my creativity kind of sprang from. The times in Detroit, living with grandma and seeing my dad and mom and sister and all that kind of stuff. But then when you’re in something it’s hard to kind of like express it in a way. So when I moved to Chicago and we can get into, you know, the all the different intricate stuff to go into that move, but at the same time, when I moved here in Chicago, I didn’t feel constrained by just my life. You know, it was like more so like, okay, this is a time to share what I’ve been through. And Chicago has so many different spaces to do it. Like Chicago is like the incubator city where comedy, improv, even storytelling and all these things literary. You know, people come to Chicago and they kind of become the artists that they’re going to be before they go to New York or L.A. So a lot of comedians come. They spend their time in Chicago kind of growing, and then they go to New York and L.A. and they spring up. But for me, Chicago was like a space where, dang, I can I can be I can be artistic. In Detroit is like the work of life. In Chicago was more like the Oh, I can show what I’ve worked on. Yeah. 

Tricia: One of the first stories of yours I ever heard was you telling the story “It’s like Borrowing” about when you were a bank manager and had a little hiccup at the bank. I’m going to let you tell about that experience and then say how you got on stage telling that story. 

Shannon: Yeah, well, okay, so like I say, Detroit was like the work of life. So, gambling addiction. I always had it when I was young from back when I was in high school. We would flip quarters or pitch them against a wall and stuff like that, and I would be really into it. We would shoot craps. In college, I went to Michigan State University and we would lose a lot of money. I mean, a lot, you know, relatively to us. If you lose $200 and you’re a college student, that might have been your check for the whole week. You know, that gambling addiction for me was was kind of held at bay for a while while I was really heavily involved in the church that I was in. But then when I kind of left the church, for whatever reason, I ended up going back to gambling and I worked at a bank. So working at a bank and gambling is not the best, not the best mixture. Me being a manager at the bank, you know, with all this access to a lot of money. What it was was a lascivious thought. Lasciviousness is when you let your mind just go unrestrained. And I let my mind go unrestrained, thinking about the money in the vault. And I was like, I can just play around with this money, it’s not, you know, and eventually those thoughts become reality. So I’ll always watch my thoughts on certain things. And I took $50,000 and I lost it at the casino during my lunch hour in Detroit. That was going to changing point in my life because I was always kind of a good, you know, the good kid, the kid who got good grades, graduated college, the first one in my family and all these other things, you know, so being in trouble for embezzlement was huge, you know. Now, the thing with storytelling, when I got into storytelling, like all these experiences in life, that experience, divorce experiences, you know, experiences that coming up and how we grew up, I allowed myself the creative freedom just to be honest. I call it brutally honest, being brutally honest about myself, being vulnerable about those stories. It takes time to tell a story like that because you have to think and you have to adjust and think like, okay, if I tell this story pretty much commits you to the arts because you can’t really take the story back, you know.

Tricia: You’re not going to go into retail banking after that. 

Shannon: Yeah, you’re not going back into banking again or investing and nothing like that. So the thing is, I told the story and really the intention in telling the story was helping others. So having an intention behind the story of letting others know that they are not alone because I did lose a friend, I don’t know if it was to gambling, but also I know the feelings and thoughts that I had during that time frame, thinking that life is over and it’s not. It wasn’t at all. So yeah. 

Tricia: So, but when was the first time you got on a stage to tell a story?

Shannon: First time I got on stage to tell a story would have been at the Martin Luther King Library at I think is 40, 45th on Michigan Avenue and 45th and in Chicago. And they had like a writers program and I wrote a story and I read it and I kind of liked it. I like doing that. Other than that, I may have told stories back when I was a kid and stuff like that, but that was the first, like modern time and telling stories.

Tricia: Yeah, but now you what you do for a living is you’re a storyteller. Well, in addition to running a podcast and workshops and everything else that you do, but really, that’s who you are. But I want to know, like, what did it feel like the very first time to be brave enough to step up and say, I’m going to tell the story? And what story did you tell? 

Shannon: I had moved to the north side of Chicago and it was this…they had a these little, like I say, Chicago. It’s like an incubator city. They have all these little spastic storytelling, improv comedy, you know, literary scene, all these different scenes, poetry, you know. SLAM Poetry was started here. So all these things going on. And this one lady named Dana Norris, she had a thing called Story Club. But I remember I saw it, me and my girlfriend at the time, was walking and I saw this little flier says, Story Club. People reading their writing and I started writing these stories. So I went to that and I had a story called My Father’s Camera. It was a gictional story basically. Now it reads like it’s a true story. And at the end, I’m on the south side of Chicago in a neighborhood. And I’m taking pictures of people and somebody comes up to me and say, you know, why are you taking pictures over here? You know, kind of like in my face. And that’s the end of the story. So and I still tell that story to this day. Like, that’s one of my first stories and I still tell that story. 

Shannon: My father left me his camera. It was in a boxy aluminum case with two latches in the front that locked. It also had latches on the side that didn’t lock. To unlock it, you have to get your fingernail under it the little notches of the combination will then flick them to seven and seven and one more, seven. Then get your fingers under the levers and pull. Then the latches would loosen and you could open it. The side levers — just get your fingers under those. No combination. 

Tricia: I love the whole idea of just, you know, being mid-thirties and jumping in and seeing a flier and just going to it. If you had ignored that thing in the inside of you that said, Go tell that story, we would all be worse off but you in particular. Did it occur to you not to answer that flier? Do you think like did you think twice oh maybe I won’t or were you like, finally, thank Jesus, I can go up and start telling a story now. 

Shannon: I had attitude, right? So I had attitude to what I do. And it comes from playing sports. It comes from like in Detroit, I was big into the hip hop community. So all these things is the attitude that I approach it with. So when I was telling that story, like the first story’s the first, My Father’s Camera, when I go on stage or, you know, coffeeshop microphone, it’s almost as though I was meant to be there. I always looked at comedians like open mic comedians, and I did, I tried comedy for a little bit, but they would be looking at the feet or looking at the paper or a little nervous. I’m not saying I don’t feel nerves, but if I’m going to do it, you know, I’m all in. You get what I’m saying? And that’s just how I am, all in, and I took $50,000. If I’m going to do it. Hey, why take a thousand? Just grab it all out of the safe. So I’m more like, Oh, you know, it was funny because the first time I told a story at Dana Norris’s Story Club, and we’re good friends now. I went up there and she thought I was, she thought I was somebody, you know? She’s like, Well, can I get you back to come back to the Story Club? I’m like, what is my first time telling this story. But I’m going with that kind of demeanor when I’m doing that thing. And I just I just always looked at that and I said, Why would a person looking at their feet, why don’t they just just do it instead of pulling back? You know, so I’ve always kind of had that that attitude.

Tricia: I, I love that, I meant to be here, you know? And I think that’s such an interesting way to navigate to say I’m, even if I’m…Just like you were brand new doing this was like, I’m supposed to be doing this. I’m supposed to stand up here and tell the story, you know? And I think it’s really powerful not to wait for permission and go all in. I mean, it’s really a powerful thing for our listeners to hear, particularly those who are just trying to get their self going with it. And those of us who are trying to get into a new medium or something like that, just go all in and do it. So tell me a little bit about your creative process. When you want to make something and what does it look like for you? 

Shannon: You know, I think some things are are gifts and some things are learned or it’s a mixture of all of it. For me, I do have a good memory of feelings and I feel those things. You know, I trust the feelings that I had during certain moments in my life when I woke up as a kid and my mom and dad were arguing and I’m yelling at my dad to leave my mom alone, you know, I can see those things and I can feel them and I can put them in paper. So those are one of the things that I think kind of just is a gift. And what I do to kind of find those stories is just remember those moments. And in a lot of times, those moments that come back to me on certain things like it would be a serendipitous thing or, or déja vu, like I’ll see something and it will remind me. And I say, Oh, talk about where my mom broke her arm at my baptism, you know, and all the details that kind of went into that. And one of the things that I know will happen will be someone else will remember these moments in their life, because a lot of those things are relatable and we’ve all had some experiences that are that are similar. You know, they’re not the same, but they’re very similar. Relationship wise, feeling wise, the expressions, the things we feel on the inside. And I’ll just try to explain them honestly from my point of view. But my intention is for others to kind of go into their mind and think about the experiences that they had as well that may be similar to that, you know. 

Tricia: As we all know, the more specific you get, the more universal the story becomes. And it’s like you just hit that out of the park every time, Shannon. 

Shannon: That means alot. That means alot. 

Tricia: Every time. 

Shannon: But I do know that that’s definitely something that I hone in on and I respect like my own intuition and I respect my experiences that I’m going through and I try to be honest with myself about it. What am I truly feeling? If I’m disgusted tell that, you know, because I think that honesty will shine through more than me just saying what I think everybody wants to hear. You know, like, if you’re going through a divorce and and the other person’s bad and I’m the good one. But no, if I can tell the story, if if I really feel like I’m the bad one, I’m just kind of.

Tricia: Yeah. 

Shannon: Tell that story, you know, And people may not like you in the story, but if we be honest with ourselves as the listener, as the audience, as whoever, you know, you’ll be like, you know, I’ve done some bad things too. Or I can relate to that feeling of wanting to be a better father, a better husband, those things, you know? 

Tricia: Yeah. Oh, yeah. So I would encourage all of our listeners to look at your TEDx talk, you know, which is really kind of underscoring what you’re talking about right now. It’s called A Simple and Honest Story. And it’s it’s a really fantastic, sort of overview, of what makes a story good and why you would tell a story in the first place. It’s that vulnerability. 

Shannon: This is the most important point I make, is if you’re struggling in life and somebody here is. If you feel like you’re failing that everything, you can’t win for losing, your honesty about it may be your way out. The bigger your failures, the better your story. Now, if you can harness and channel that story, it could affect millions, possibly change your life, maybe even change the world. 

Tricia: We’ll get back to the second half of our conversation in a moment, but right now, I want to tell you about our sponsor Interabang Books, a Dallas-based independent bookstore with a terrific online collection. At Interabang, they’re dedicated staff of book enthusiasts will guide you on your search for knowledge and the excitement of discovery. Shop their curated collection online at interabangbooks.com. That’s interabangbooks.com. 

Tricia: Well, what’s interesting is you have a very interesting blend, Shannon, of just being so vulnerable. But there’s humor that gets laced through your stories as well, which can kind of be a reprieve, you know, when you’re in that space of profundity. Do you write your thoughts on a notebook? Do you come home and put them all on a computer or do you just keep them in your head? Like, what does that look like for you? 

Shannon: Yeah, Creative process. I use the same notebook, the same pens that I use for everything. Yeah. And then I use my phone a lot, my notes in my phone, because ideas will come as I’m kind of going through life and normal things even when I’m hanging out with different people. But I’ll take a note just to remember to jog my memory. And I keep a file in my notes, you know, called ideas. And I’ll just sometimes I’ll go to those or they’ll be nagging me, you know, I’ll write it from there. I’ve started writing stuff on my whiteboard as well, like stories that I may want to work on at some point. So I do keep a lot of notes. It’s not any kind of, well, it may be organized is organized for me from my standpoint. And everything I do is I like a list. I’m a list person. You know, I use lists pretty much in every single way possible, even with my storytelling, my creativity, stories. I’ll start the story with outlines. I used to just start a story, but I noticed that those were it take so long to write, but if I outline it, which can be a rough outline of saying, you know, my dad, I get my dad’s camera, I try to play around with some ideas, I put the camera away, I go around the city and it ends on the south side of Chicago. You know, I would just kind of outline those five things and then I’ll see where that story takes me from the outline. So I do I do outline as well. And that’s that’s my process. 

Tricia: When you’re on stage, do you memorize anything or are you just riffing?

Shannon: Everything is memorized to the tee. 

Tricia: Yeah.

Shannon: So in there, memorization is…I have a process for that. So I’ll read the story. I’ll try to tell the story into the microphone and then listen to it on the microphone. In this, the one thing that I do, I know I had a story if I can write the story out, now that depends on how long it is. I remember you like you listen to that TEDx. I was writing that story down or the TEDx down, the whole speech, writing it, you know, longhand in my notebook and just writing it all out right before I had to go on stage, I was trying to finish it because I know if I can write it, I got it. It’s in my head. Yeah. And once I have it totally memorized, now I can play around with the audience a little bit, especially if I’m doing it the second or third time, because I do audience participation. So I will go off script and play with the audience and then go back on script. So I love to have it totally memorized in that way. 

Tricia: I do the same thing. I have it in my DNA. If a story’s in my DNA, then I can just do whatever I want to it when I’m on stage and respond better to the audience. 

Shannon: No doubt. But I say this like I look at stories as as songs so because I used to do hip hop. So we used to put out these a thousand different demo songs together in basements and in Detroit in the nineties, you know, late, late eighties to, to, to the late nineties and even into 2000. So we would do all these songs and you wanted to move to the song, you know. The culture then was the Hip Hop Shop, St. Andrews, these kind of like iconic places now. You know, Eminem made movies about it, people making TV shows about J Dilla and his legacy and hip hop. So all these things were like, these were the people who I was kind of coming up around and we were seeing each other doing the hip hop thing. So when I do music, you got to memorize a rhyme, right? So you memorize a rhyme, and when you say the rhyme, you don’t say it as though a memorized rhyme. You know, you say to rhyme from your heart and from your spirit and from a certain attitude that you may have with it. So in the same way I did that I do my stories, I memorize the story. But when I’m saying the story, I’m not saying I’m saying it with timing. You know, I’ve always I’ve heard some things about my timing, but that’s from music, you know. So those things all come along with with that that training in hip hop as well. 

Tricia: Okay. This is a fantastic segway into what you’re doing on YouTube right now. You know, I can get really, like, nervous about adopting new media. I mean, you’re the one that held my hand and said, Go to the podcast convention. Tricia, go to the podcast convention, because I’m like, Do I do that now? I mean, so you are so integral in helping me just feel more comfortable and doing this as a medium. But you have this great quote: Don’t let these young’uns get too far away from us. Plug in to the new stuff or the latest stuff. And I just cracked up was like, You’re right. You know, you were right. For a lot of us, it’s like, seems so unreachable. Talk about how you finally stepped into that world of saying, okay, yeah, I’m going to like, get on TikTok, I’m going to do these stories and like, talk about that. 

Shannon: Can’t let everything get so far away from us and we got to kind of stay with the now. We don’t want to be too we don’t want to be the ones wearing, I mean, pleated pants might be back in somewhere, but we don’t want to be the one doing stuff from the standpoint of being, you know, dinosaurs in a sense. So so when I look at things like TikTok and I wish, you know, it’s always 20, 20, you know, I wish I was looking at what my daughter was doing there probably. But I always thought that’s for my that’s for the kids, you know? But the one thing is, was just finding my lane within it. So because I know I’m not going to be dancing and I’m not going to be doing too many, like weird things, if I can find a way to do storytelling within these platforms. And I saw a friend of mine named Aaron Calafato, right? He does a podcast called 7 Minutes Stories, and he had been playing around with YouTube and Instagram and these things. And then one day I would look at his thing and it had like a it had like 700,000 views on one of his shorts, and it was just him telling a story about his granddad wanting dandelion salad at a restaurant and remembering that his mother used to make that when they didn’t have much money, they’d go out in the yard and pick dandelions and they’d cook them and they had dandelion salad or something like that. And it 700,000 became 2 million and 2 million became 6 million. And then it was 10 million. And then it kept going and it was 15 million people had saw that simple little one minute story about his granddad. And I was like, I can do that. Yeah, yeah. If he’s telling stories, I don’t have to dance. I was like, he got 15 million from stories. And I told him, I said, Hey, because actually he followed a lot of my stories. So I was like, Hey, I’m gonna follow your lead in this. And he was like, Have at it Shannon, you know, I appreciate your stories. So I started telling like the one minute stories and I saw traction within those. In telling one minute stories, I like the the economy of it. You know, if we love writing and storytelling and we find it a challenge to have economy of words. So using that that love of writing and literature, I just I have that kind of mindset to the TikToks and the Instagram reels and YouTube shorts. And then I want to broaden that to be able to bring the stories that we tell on on stage and then on our podcast to take those stories to the YouTube audience as well. And I’m still I’m still tweaking it and learning, but I know it to grow because the stories, like we said earlier on, they are universal and they will, you know, and it’s a lot of storytelling I like, I’ll listen, I’ll watch sWooZie. sWooZie has I think you got probably 10 million subscribers, but he tells stories and little cartoons that go along with them. But storytelling lives on YouTube and on these platforms as well. 

Tricia: How did you come up with I’m going to do a one minute story about what day of the week you would be, and I’m going to be a Tuesday and explain why you’re not the other days of the week. It’s brilliant. 

Shannon: I think every, all of our ideas are kind of like appropriation, like we we can take them from somewhere else. Yeah. So you say you were painting in the past some of the things or you still paint probably. But some of the things you painted at the time in school are stories, right? So, so you can kind of take some of the old stuff and make it newer again.

Tricia: Yeah. 

Shannon: You know, like I haven’t told my gambling story on YouTube yet, but it eventually becomes something on YouTube, you know, if it’s a series. I haven’t told well, I told some of my church stories, but I’ll think of those and I say, okay, let me do a series on those or some of the music stories and want to do a series on those. So the Tuesday story, I’ve always just thought that, like I’ve always liked Tuesdays. Like Fridays and Saturdays, I always felt too much nervous energy. I’m an introvert. I’m kind of like, you know, I don’t I don’t like any any anxiousness. The anxiety bothered me on certain things. So I’m like, Oh, it’s Friday night, you know, you got to go crazy. I’m like, Yeah, but Tuesdays and it’s this song like “It’s Going up on a Tuesday” with Drake and all that kind of stuff. So I relate to that song. I’m like, if I go out on a Tuesday, I can walk around. If I’m going to a party or something is not as it is not as crowded as a Friday or Saturday. It’s more my vibe. This is more the loungy, chill Tuesday. It’s not Monday, Monday sucks. So you know, it’s Tuesday. 

Shannon: Tuesday. Okay. 

Shannon: I like tacos. So so when I think about Tuesday, I’m thinking like, that’s a good day. And then striving to be a Thursday, one day, Thursday, Thursday’s are special. 

Tricia: Yeah. 

Shannon: Yeah. Striving to be a Thursday. 

Tricia: What I love about the work you do is it’s so based in the every day. The stories become profound, but they’re really about just like what I’m what I’m looking at every day. That’s why that Late Bloomer story was so beautiful, because you were watching this man tend to this garden, and it becomes this obvious metaphor, but it was just the details of the every day of watching this man work. So I think that that’s as an artist…I don’t have to wait for this gigantic lightning bolt of an idea. I just have to look at what’s in front of me. And then just and just notice, I just need to notice, you know, and all of us, if we’re wondering how to get started. Just notice, you know, that’s. And that’s what you’re masterful at. 

Shannon: No, no, that’s a great point there to notice. Yeah, I love that. Mm hmm.

Tricia: Okay. So, Shannon, tell me, how do you get through those rough patches? You know, how do you keep yourself fueled to keep going? 

Shannon: For me, the rough patches are the actual fuel. You know that that is the the raw material for storytelling. The hard things of life. Nobody wants to hear everything went perfect. And I made it. And now we’re closing in on 10 million and. 

Tricia: Yeah. 

Shannon: And there’s no cares in the world even with this. I mean, you can have a lot and its rough patches. You get what I’m saying? So it’s like those are the things that fuel stories for me. When I see, not saying things go bad, but when I when I see like challenges, when I see heartbreak or man, dating is different when you’re older now and you’ve been divorced two times and you got two kids and and, you know, explaining what you do for work may be interesting. You don’t want to really talk about that. Those are the things that make good storytelling for me because I know I’m not the only one in that predicament. And when I do a story on it, I know I’m not going or somebody is going to relate to it or it’s going to explain some kind of life that somebody else isn’t living. They may aspire to or they may hope that they never fall into. You know, so so those are the things like those challenges are the things that make good stories for me. Like, that’s the thing that I’m looking for. If I just stay in my house and nothing happens, really, it’s hard to find stories in that even though there might be a story in that as well. But I like the challenges in a sense. I like those trying times. And that’s what I find, too, when I’m interviewing, like I do interviews and I try to, why I create podcasts for other companies or organizations and when I’m doing that, I want that out of the person that I’m interviewing. Yeah. I want to find out what challenges they have. Like, a lot of times people have answers that they’re used to giving and they want to, you know, promote their business. But I’m trying to find those things where, is this the tenth business? Yeah. 

Tricia: Yeah. 

Shannon: And that, I think, is more interesting then we’re closing in on a billion this year. You know, I think to be in the tenth business is more interesting. And then when you hear that closing in on a billion it’s like, Wow. And the person who’s in that second business, they can listen to it and be like, Oh. You know? Yeah. I’m on the road. I’m on the road.

Tricia: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I mean, this is one of the things we’re trying to do with this podcast is say, you know, we all didn’t just come out of the womb being artists, and we know exactly what we’re doing, and it’s such a clear road ahead of us, you know? It’s like, you know, there’s a lot of uncertainty in this. And we’re just we’re just this is how we make it happen and this is what we do. And and, you know, anything is material and we turn it into a story and put it back out there. What are you working on right now that scares you? 

Shannon: I’m leaning into Homemade Stories thinking that I have to do something different. You know, Homemade Stories, I started back in 2010 and that’s been over 13 years now. So I’m leaning into that instead of doing a bunch of other different things because I had had ideas that I have to do switch it up or I have to become a crime fiction podcast or, you know, do these other true crime stuff, you know. But I’m leaning into the into the Homemade Stories. So with YouTube those, those reels that you’re seeing also being more consistent with my podcast. I get a lot of interest from the podcast. Like people are, like it has a, it has a small cult following in that sense. But at the same time I get a lot of different business from it as well. So just leaning into the podcast and into the brutally honest storytelling, that’s been my focus and consistency is the thing that there probably scares me more than anything, just being consistent instead of oh, so, so haphazard. Just sticking to a system and staying on schedule is the thing that I’m really working on. 

Tricia: Man, you and me both. I mean, it’s, it is because the good news is we’re artists and we’re in charge of our time. And the bad news is we’re artists and we’re in charge of our time. 

Shannon: Exactly. 

Tricia: I just love your stories. I just love your stories and I love the work that you’re doing. There’s not only a sense of recognition in your stories, but there also feels like healing in them and hope in them. And that’s that’s a good thing to be putting out in the world these days. 

Shannon: That’s a beautiful thing to hear. Because that’s the intention. Good. That’s. That’s the intention. In the same with you. I do feel like a friendship. And I’m happy that a friendship that we have together, that we can talk about creative things. And it’s like this is like an understanding, someone who understands because we haven’t, you know, from the sense of whatever hit it big means — I don’t know what the hit it big things mean, but sometimes I just feel like I’m doing what I’m meant to do and everything else will take care of itself in some ways. Now, not saying that I don’t have to, you know, step one, step two, step three. But at the same time, I do feel like I’m in the right spot. So when I wrote that story, Late Bloomer, I’ve been that way forever. It wasn’t, it’s not something new. When I was six years old, I may have been later then some of the things that other six year olds were at. So as a storyteller, you know, at 47 I feel like, Oh, I’m right in my stride. I’m still growing. And I’m I feel like I’m, you know, right at the point I’m supposed to be in certain ways, you know, of course. But I feel like we relate in a lot of ways. And then our creative conversations always, always fuel me. And I love our differences and I love our similarities as well. I think that that’s a beautiful thing. 

Tricia: Yeah. Same here. The common ground. I tell you, creativity gives you all kinds of common ground. Yeah. Well, thank you so much for being on the show, Shannon. We’re going to have to have you back to get an update. But thank you so much for coming. 

Shannon: Most definitely. Most definitely. I love being here. 

Tricia: Great. Thanks. 

Tricia: I could spend hours talking and listening to Shannon. He inspires me and he leaves me with a better perspective on my work and my life. He also gets me thinking. Here are some questions for us to ponder: First, what’s your attitude when you approach your work? Are you looking at your feet or are you all in? Second, what are everyday things that you notice that might inform your work? And last, how do you handle the rough patches? Can they be fuel for your creative life? Make sure to check out the show notes for links to some of Shannon’s stories and follow him on Instagram and YouTube @shannoncason. Subscribe to his podcast too, Homemade Stories. 

Tricia: Thanks for joining us. If you have any questions, feel free to reach out to us podcast@trisharoseburt.com. And if you liked this episode, please share it with one other person that you think will enjoy it. Then maybe talk to them about the parts that resonate. It really helps build our audience. And remember, this is no time to be timid.

No Time to Be Timid is written and produced by me, Trisha Rose Burt. Our episodes are produced and scored by Adam Arnone of Echo Finch. And our executive producers are Amy Grant, Nancy Perot, and Sage Wheeler. I’d also like to thank contributors to my Fractured Atlas Fiscal Sponsorship, which helps make this podcast happen. No Time to Be Timid is a presentation of I Will Be Good Productions.

You can change yourself and change the world It’s no time to be timid if you haven’t heard

You can find what’s true, that’s what you deserve. It’s no time to be timid if you haven’t heard.

Takeaways: 

• Age should never be a barrier to creativity.
• Role models can play a big part in your creative journey, especially for women.
• You shouldn’t listen to other people’s views of yourself; it’s what you think about yourself that matters.
• Constraints are opportunities, which is a big part of the No Time to be Timid manifesto. 

Resources:

• Check out Nell’s website.
• Follow her on instagram @nellpainter.

Transcript

Nell Painter 

I’m Nell Painter and I do a lot of things. I write history, I make drawings, I knit. And I just want to tell you all this is no time to be timid.

Tricia Burt 

Hey there, I’m Trisha Rose Burt, and in this podcast, we talk to artists who show us how to find the courage to take risks, step out of our comfort zones, and use our creativity to make our work and change our world. Pay close attention, because this is no time to be timid. 

Hey there and welcome to the show. If you’re a regular listener, you know that I live in the woods in New Hampshire, and my particular woods are rife with artists and writers. About 10 minutes from my house is MacDowell, the nation’s oldest artist residency, where artists are offered time and space to do their work. Every summer they have a big celebration called Medal Day, where they honor an artist of particular significance. Think Toni Morrison, Philip Roth, and Yoko Ono.

And at that event, the chairman of the board always makes some remarks. The current chairman of the board is Nell Painter. Nell wrote the book Old in Art School, a memoir of starting over, which was named a National Book Critics Circle finalist. And it’s a story of her leaving a rich academic career in history to go to art school at the age of 65. Now I didn’t know Nell, but I’d read her book, which was crazy inspiring. So after the ceremony, I went up to her and I said,

that I was old in art school too, and that I have a podcast called No Time to Be Timid, and would she like to be on the show? And without skipping a beat, she said yes. So today we’re talking to the aptly named Nell Painter, now 82 years old, who is so generous, curious, and passionate about her creative work, especially her addictions to knitting and ink, it helped me not to be intimidated by her academic achievements, which are vast. She’s the Edwards Professor of American History, Emerita, at Princeton University. In addition to writing Old and Art School, she’s the author of the New York Times bestseller, The History of White People, Sojourner Truth, A Life, Symbol, and her most recent book, I Just Keep Talking, which was named one of the New York Times’ notable books of 2024. Since 2007, she’s been a fellow of the American Academy of Arts and Sciences and she’s received honorary degrees from Yale, Wesleyan, the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, and Dartmouth oh and she earned a PhD in history from Harvard too. On the artist’s front, she earned degrees in painting from Mason Gross School of the Arts at Rutgers and the Rhode Island School of Design and she’s made artist books and residencies such as MacDowell, Yaddo, and UCross. Our conversation focuses on the ups and downs of her creative journey and how her formidable courage was further forged. We talk about how age should never be a barrier to creativity. Role models can play a big part in your creative journey, especially for women. You shouldn’t listen to other people’s views of yourself. It’s what you think about yourself that matters. Constraints or opportunities, a big part of the No Time To Be Timid manifesto. And since neither Nell nor I have children, I asked her thoughts about that life experience. It’s part of an overall fascinating discussion that I think you’ll enjoy. Thanks for joining us. 

Tricia Burt

Hey, Nell, thank you so much for joining us on the show.

Nell Painter 

Well, I’m happy to be here with you.

Tricia Burt  

Well, I have read your book, Old in Art School. And so I was thinking, what’s the way I want to start? And I just have to start with your mother, who wrote a book with probably one of the best titles ever. Ever. I hope I look that good when I’m that old. 

Nell Painter 

Yeah Isn’t it a wonderful title? Can you imagine a woman about 80 with the chutzpah, with the cajones to use that title?

Tricia Burt  

I loved it. Like, just was like, that is a person I wish I had known. You know, I really wish I had known her.

Nell Painter 

The marvelous thing, Trisha, is that my mother was very shy for most of her life. That’s what you were saying. She came into her life at 65. Wow. I hope I look that good with her second book. But she started writing when she was 65. 

Tricia Burt  

This is so important now as women. I’m 64 and I had a wonderful guest on the show, Tanya Trotter, and she’s part of a duo, husband and wife duo, the War and Treaty. And she was saying, some people, you know, society kind of throws us away after a certain age. And she said, but some people throw themselves away. And I thought, that’s so interesting. And it’s like your mother, just like, I’m not throwing myself away. I’m gonna write two books after I’m 65. I mean, you know, it was such an inspiration, you know, such an inspiration. Also, what a role model for you because then you just decided, well, I think I’ll retire at early 60s and start a whole new career as well. This idea of role model is important. It’s important to me at 64 going, okay, who’s still curious, who’s still making stuff, who’s still engaged, who’s still trying to make a difference, which is why I was really excited about having you on the show. You’ve been a historian for how many years? You’ve been a historian forever?

Nell Painter 

I think it’s 50 years.

Tricia Burt  

But you played around though in high school, you were in art, you were making art, you were interested in art. And I loved when you said you had role models in academia, but you didn’t have role models in art. And so that was an easier path.

Nell Painter 

Absolutely. Let’s see, I graduated from the Rhode Island School of Design in 2011. And it took me about 10 years to find my footing, putting together both myself as a historian and myself as a visual artist. So it does take some time.

Tricia Burt  

I have that as a quote I wanted to talk to you about because you said when you make that switch it takes you about a week to go from one sort of to the other and I totally get that. I mean when I start drawing I have to use my left hand even though I’m right-handed because I have to kick off. Yeah, yeah, yeah, they taught me that in art school. I went to the School of Museum of Fine Arts in Boston.

Nell Painter 

So you really got trained.

Tricia Burt  

Really, I resonated with so much of your book because I was consulting at Fidelity Investments in Harvard Business School at the same time while I was a part-time student at the museum school. And so doing these shifts back and forth was like, okay, what, what? And so I understand that weird integration that has to happen. Does it feel different in your body? Does Nell’s body feel one way as a historian and does it feel another way when you’re making art?

Nell Painter 

Probably. I hadn’t thought of it that way, but I will tell you that I have a reptilian brain in my gut, and it tells me what to draw when I’m drawing, and it tells me what to write when I’m writing. But it takes a while to get up to speed either side. And then when it gets going, it wakes me up at

6:15 and says, hey, write this. Hey, draw this. Yeah. So I’m not drawing right now. I’m writing, but I keep a notepad by my bed because it kept getting me up to go into my writing room and write stuff down. At first I thought, oh, I’ll remember that. That’s so important. What a great word. What a great phrase. I’ll remember that. Then I wake up and it’s just poof.

Tricia Burt  

Okay.

Nell Painter 

I don’t even remember what it was about.

Tricia Burt  

Yeah I know, and you have to grab those moments. I love how Sojourner Truth is the one who brought you i’m gonna say back to your art, because you had been doing it in high school and some in college. I’m gonna say she sort of called you back. I want you to tell our listeners how your history and how this amazing woman in history sort of called you to where you are now.

Nell Painter 

It’s two answers. When you use the word call, Sojourner Truth was calling people at the end of the 20th century. And she called an excellent historian, Margaret Washington, who is a wonderful researcher and whose own book, which came out after mine, is just a real masterpiece of research. And so I depend on her alot. And then also Carleton Mabee , the late Carleton Mabee, who was a professor at New Paltz, which is the home territory of Sojourner Truth. So Sojourner Truth was calling us saying, hey, write about me. And so the three of us did. That’s the calling part. The art part, though, is I first got to that with her because words failed me. She did not read and write. So to try to get to her as her, as she put herself in the world, her own self-fashioning, I had to look at her photographs, which she arranged. She decided how she was going to look, what she was going to wear, what her props were, all of that. So I went to this wonderful place, Princeton’s Art History Library, Marquand,I was so fortunate to have access to this terrific art history library. And I read up on the rhetoric of the image. And I thought, I love this. And that’s how I got that.

Tricia Burt  

That’s so fabulous. I love that way that it brought you back in. I love how that brought you back in. 

Nell Painter 

Yes, so it was a failure of words that turned into a gift of image..

Tricia Burt  

When you went to art school, first of all, I have to just say this. Talk about commitment. When you’re explaining your commute, I’m like, dear God in heaven, I would have collapsed in a heap. I mean, how many minutes? I mean, it was just amazing. 

Nell Painter 

No! it was so easy. This is New Jersey. We commute!

Tricia Burt  

It was like this train to this train to that train that I walked. 

Nell Painter 

Okay, it was 2 trains. It was the light rail. At that time we lived in North Newark right by Branchbrook Park. So I’d walk across the park and take the light rail which went to Newark Penn Station. And at Newark Penn Station I got the Northeast Corridor and a few stops down the line was New Brunswick. It was so easy. And in those days, I could depend entirely on New Jersey Transit. I can’t quite now, unfortunately.

Tricia Burt 

There was something really lovely about the travel it took for you to get there as you were making this transition. 

Nell Painter 

I wrote that part as a love letter. I love New Jersey. It’s so diverse and it has, or had, such wonderful trains. And it has a great state university Rutgers, the state university of New Jersey. So I just love New Jersey. And I think anybody who is from New Jersey reading that will understand. I don’t know if people outside of New Jersey, because New Jersey gets such a bad rap.

Tricia Burt  

It does get a bad rap. It does get a bad rap.

Nell Painter 

It really does, and that’s because of being right next to New York City.

Tricia Burt  

I went to art school when I was very unhappy with my life and knew that something had to change and had taken all these different classes. I loved how you said, I think it was in an interview with Debbie Millman about if people are interested about going to art school, like go to a community college and take some classes. Such a good idea to say, you know try it out, put your toe in the water and see what it feels like.

Nell Painter 

Yeah, and also you won’t go broke in community college, which you will in art school.

Tricia Burt  

And we had a former guest, Richard Casper, who was actually a veteran with PTSD. And he was like, he thought he’d get an easy degree in art. And so he went to community college because he thought he’d just get an easy degree. And it ended up completely changing his life. He ended up going to the Art Institute of Chicago. He started this huge foundation to help veterans heal through the arts. It’s remarkable. But I loved your suggestion about that.

Well, I went to art school and I knew that I was turning my life upside down. And every time I walked in that door, I knew I was walking farther away from the life that was outside, 

Nell Painter 

Now, turning it upside down as a good thing?

Tricia Burt  

Yes. I mean, in the middle of it, it was not great, but it turned out to be a fabulous thing, So what did you feel like walking through the door of artschool?

Nell Painter 

I started at Rutgers and I was kind of a freshman. Rutgers gave me a lot of credit for my first bachelor’s degree, my honors degree from Berkeley. So I didn’t have to start from the very bottom, but I was in my first year at Rutgers. I was with first year students. They were very young and they were so darling. They were so beautifully self-absorbed. They gave me the gift.

of self-absorption. That’s hard for women. It’s hard for adult women to be totally self-absorbed. And these kids, everything that happened to them was so exciting and it was so wonderful or it so awful. Nothing had ever been like this before. Drama. It was so refreshing. 

Tricia Burt 

You know, I loved how you said that you were surprised that your otherness in art school was you being old. Yeah. For me, my otherness was I had a corporate life outside. So they looked at me like, well, you’re kind of the devil. It took me a while but then we seamlessly integrated. I also loved it when you were saying like, all your achievements you had out there made no difference to people in art school.

Nell Painter 

No difference at all. No. When I got, when my book The History of White People got the cover review of the New York Times book review, it’s like every writer’s fondest dream, their greatest ambition. And it was nothing.

Tricia Burt  

There was also kind of a freedom to go, well, all those labels and all those things out there don’t matter in here. What matters in here is am I making art? That’s the only thing that matters here. Am I making art? Am I learning this craft? Am I doing this? It was kind of humbling, a little humbling.

Nell Painter 

Yeah, but also your art school, I think, was a better art school than my art schools. I’m hesitating here because in my very first year, I did learn some crafts. But since when I was in art school, craft skill was kind of looked down on. 

Tricia Burt  

Now, when I say honing your craft, I kind of mean that broadly because it was an interesting time at the museum school as well. I really enjoyed your conversation about drawing from the nude figure and how everything sort of led to drawing the nude figure because I am horrible at it. But I have a really good use of line. And so when you were talking about your use of line, you were geared to doing this because you’ve done research your whole life and asking questions. I was not particularly skilled at asking questions. And so what art school did for me is allow me to ask a lot of questions.

Nell Painter 

Good, very good.

Tricia Burt  

You had a couple teachers say some pretty shitty things.

Nell Painter 

Yeah, I have lived such a long time. I was born in 1942, so I have lived a long time and a lot of that life, half of that life was in the, pardon my language, fucking 20th century. And in the fucking 20th century, a person in my body, not only a female body, a black body, but a dark skinned black body, I could not be anybody. Even when I was a full professor, there were people who I could tell that they just knew I couldn’t be anybody. And whatever I wrote could not be interesting. So I learned very early not to, I mean, I’m saying I learned very early not to see myself through other people’s eyes, which is the lesson that I end Old in Art school with.

But I have not always been able to apply that lesson to myself. But I try and I know that it’s a lesson I need to keep applying every day. And that was when I was glad to be old because I knew that was bullshit. I had been a teacher, I had been a grown up. I knew you don’t talk to students like that. And I have told that story many times and every time I tell it to an artist, they will say, I heard that and I thought it was true and I quit. Or I know somebody, even white men, who heard that and who quit because they thought that teacher was right. It’s just devastating.

Tricia Burt  

It is devastating and we need as many artists out there as we can. And so the idea is to just nurture them and move them. I mean, you and I both know when we hear criticism that is authentic and coming from a good, you feel it. You may not want to hear it, but you can hear it and you get better. But just stuff to say, Nell, you’re never going to be an artist. I mean, that’s founded on what? You know, that’s just alot of bullshit.

Nell Painter 

It’s just bullshit.

Tricia Burt  

Yeah. You know, I love the fact that you have proven them wrong.

Nell Painter 

I think so.

Tricia Burt  

I think one of the things about being an artist is resilience. One of the things that you referred to is just the staying power. If you stay in it, eventually you will be recognized. You know, eventually.

Nell Painter 

No, it depends on what you call recognition. I mean, just an infinitesimal percentage of working artists are recognized with a big R as, international artists or New York artists, people who sell their art. I mean, how many, what proportion of visual artists can live off their art? You know, it’s like zero.

Tricia Burt  

It is zero.

Nell Painter 

So if you’re going to keep making your art, you have to have some source of support. And whenever I talk about art, I remind people this is not just about your talent or your skill or what you can do that nobody else can do. It’s also about having the material, wherewithal, to do your work. And I was able to go to two art schools because I have a husband who supported me and I can continue this life on two tracks, making art and I do sell my art, but I don’t sell enough to pay my rent, my studio rent, not by a long shot. So I had to have other sources of support and I did. I was very fortunate in that way. One of the reasons I think that aspiring artists should start in community college is so that they don’t waste their money trying to find themselves.

Tricia Burt  

Yeah, yeah, because it is a lot of money. Well, and even just becoming an artist, I started not framing my work because I couldn’t afford the frames. I’m like, OK, we’re going to install this in a different way because I can’t afford it. And a lot of the times working against those parameters make you more creative. I mean, I’ve had a lot of financial parameters so that made me, I did some of my most creative work working with used tea bags. They were free and I lived in Ireland. They were everywhere. I mean, those parameters can force you to be more creative, but it’s very difficult to create when you have a revenue gun to your head. It’s very difficult to create when you know, you’re building up a student debt that’s going to be almost impossible to pay back. I mean, artists are really solo entrepreneurs. You’re trying to make, and then you have to market, you have to do all these things at one time. It’s tricky to find out what that balance is. So where is your studio? You mentioned you have a studio. Where is it?

Nell Painter 

My husband and I now live in East Orange, which is the suburb right next to Newark. We live in an old, from the 50s, large co-op building. So, we put together two apartments and we live in one part and my studio is in the other part. That’s fabulous. Well, it’s kind of fabulous, but it also leaks.I am actually with my upstairs neighbors who have been very helpful and supportive because there are workmen in my place, you know, scraping away the ruined plaster from the leaks.

Tricia Burt  

I’m interested in your process. Yes, do you have a place to write and is that a different space from where you make your visual work?

Nell Painter 

No, it’s the same space. I made some art that didn’t go anywhere for the Atlantic. So I had to make that art in part of the large room with the tables. And then when it comes time to write, and so I just switched back over. We were away in Germany for half the year, so nothing happened. And then coming back, I have to rejigger that space to write, which was a big deal.

Tricia Burt  

Yeah. And the writing is more the historian in you writing.

Nell Painter 

That’s right. Visual art made a difference in how I write and how I put together what becomes a book.

Tricia Burt  

I just have to tell you, and there’s an image in, I just keep talking. It’s the skeleton drawing. It just makes me, it makes me tingle all over.

Nell Painter 

My editor wanted that to be the cover image.

Tricia Burt  

I love that image. First off, to our listeners, need to get her recent book, I Just Keep Talking, a Life in Essays. Her artwork is sprinkled all through it. And the image I’m talking about is the one that comes with the introduction, and it’s just exquisite.

Nell Painter 

And that’s a tall piece. It’s taller than life size

Tricia Burt  

I’m like, holy moly, it’s over six feet. It’s beautiful, Nell, it’s beautiful.

Nell Painter 

I’m glad you like it. Thank you, Trisha.

Tricia Burt  

We’ll get back to the second half of our conversation in a moment, but right now I want to tell you about our sponsor, Interabang Books, a Dallas-based independent bookstore with a terrific online collection. At Interabang, their dedicated staff of book enthusiasts will guide you on your search for knowledge and the excitement of discovery. Shop their curated collection online at interabangbooks.com. That’s Interabang, www.interabangbooks.com

How do you choose your materials? I loved your description of going into an art store and what it makes you feel like.

Nell Painter 

Very sexy.

Tricia Burt  

I mean, it’s like, how much can I get? I mean, you just want to just take it all in and go make stuff. Talk to me about how you choose your materials and what you work with.

Nell Painter 

It’s actually, it starts with space. So when I was at RISD, I had a nice big studio so I could make some big art. My first residency was in Newark at Galleria Aferro , an artist run space, which sadly no longer exists. And I had a huge studio downtown. And so I made really big paintings. But since that time, I’ve had to pay attention to space. When we lived in Newark in the Ironbound near the train station, I had a studio in the basement of the building, former industrial building, where we lived in a fourth floor loft, fourth floor walk-up loft. So I had space, but not, the ceiling was very low, so I couldn’t do big things in there. So the scale got smaller.  And then in 2022, we moved from that building.A developer put a behemoth in front of us and closed us in. But also it got tiresome walking up to the fourth floor. So we moved out here to East Orange to a wonderful building, I should say. But what that’s meant is that I now we live between East Orange and the Adirondacks. And I also do some of my artwork. I now do artist residencies. So the artwork in, I just keep talking, a lot of it I made at Yaddo and the organization of the book I made and documented at MacDowell. So I can’t carry around big stuff. So over the course of time, I have switched to working on paper and using inks and collage.

Tricia Burt  

I appreciate how life sort of dictates sometimes what materials we’re going to use. Alll of my work is works on paper. To me, there’s nothing better than a wonderful heavy sheet of paper and a really sharp pencil and everything. I really enjoyed the reading about your instructor who gave you the assignment, 100 drawings.

Nell Painter 

Yeah.

Tricia Burt 

And I loved the images, even though there were only 67, which I also love just as much. Just the scale of them, there’s a really beautiful sensibility to those drawings. Does it help you to have assignments like that, even though you haven’t been in art school in years? Do you give yourself assignments like that?

Nell Painter 

Not like that. Nobody’s asked me this question before, so let me put it through the mill. So for instance, for the new Sojourner Truth book, I know that I will be making new art. So you could say that’s an assignment because it will be art that goes with a theme, Sojourner Truth. I told you that visual art has changed the way I write too and the way I put books together.

So for instance, in 2022, I visited the Hudson Valley and I took some photographs. So before I got visual, I would write this book just using words, I think. But now I’m going to include my own photographs on Route 32. So I will put myself in and my own images and I will be making drawings to go with this new book as well.

Tricia Burt 

How does that feel to you?

Nell Painter 

I love it. 

Tricia Burt  

What do you love about it?

Nell Painter 

It’s constraining in a way that it doesn’t make for scary freedom. So I don’t have to sit down and think, what am I going to do? So I know, for instance, that I’m going to work on a fairly small format because I work back and forth between the hand and the computer, and so I use a scanner. So I’m not going to be able to make stuff that’s really big that won’t fit on the scan. And I am going to keep in mind not before I make the drawings, but as I make the selection of drawings that will reproduce. 

Tricia Burt 

Yeah, okay, yeah. That’s smart

Nell Painter

I mentioned the drawings that I made for the Atlantic that didn’t get used, and part of it was that they wanted illustrations and I was making things that were too painterly. Even though I was drawing them, they were too complicated. They were original, but that’s not what was needed at the time. So all these things will go into scale. I will use probably inks because I’ve been using inks and I enjoy that. I will do digital collage and I will do things that I can carry around in my Subaru.

Tricia Burt  

You know Dan Hurlin, he was one of my guests on the podcast and our conversation was there is freedom in constraint. And he made one of his first puppet shows had to fit into a trunk that he could carry around. I think that those things if not, it’s too big how do you even start? What do you even do? You have to have some constraints to say it’s this, it’s going to be like this. I also loved in your book, I just keep talking, the, um, I knit socks for Adrienne. There’s so much about knitting the socks for Adrienne. And what was so funny is when you said that you were coming out, I was like the next word, I was not expecting to be knitter.

Nell Painter 

Yes!

Tricia Burt  

Like I was… I thought it was going to be something more salacious. I didn’t know what I was expecting but not knitter.

Nell Painter 

You’re right!

I live a very unsolacious life, but I did feel like I was coming out as a knitter. And the responses to that have been very good. And now when I talk about the new Sojourner Truth, I’ll give you the title, Sojourner Truth was a New Yorker and she didn’t say that, that’s the title. But there will be a chapter on Sojourner Truth’s knitting. And everybody goes, that’s wonderful.

Tricia Burt  

It is wonderful. And even your drawings in the, I just keep talking. I think you drew them while you were at MacDowell. I know they’re yellow images and you have the balls of yarn. Those are exquisite. So I love, I love this, how it’s like the history and the knitting and the drawing. It’s like all coming together. It’s really impressive.

Nell Painter 

That’s my yarn. That’s what the art turn did for me. And I will make a confession to you, Tricia. I have two addictions that I cannot control. If you are a knitter, you will understand that one of them is yarn. And since you’re an artist, you will understand the other one is ink. Pen ink.

I have so many bottles of so many different blues, so many different blacks.

Tricia Burt  

But doesn’t it make you so happy?

Nell Painter 

Yeah, so when I was in Germany, the last thing I needed was fountain pen ink. But I was a little bit blocked in my work, and I would sit in my study, and I would go to paper stores and I would buy ink. And so I brought back six bottles of ink, which mostly duplicate bottles I have here in New Jersey, but each one is ever so slightly different. I just can’t resist.

Tricia Burt  

Yeah, yeah, no, okay. There are a lot worse addictions that you could have now. I think those are good addictions. Those are really good addictions. I want to talk to you a little bit about because I’ve mentioned this before we got together on this interview. So I’m a woman without children. You’re a woman without children. There’s been a lot of talking about women without children. It was a combination of  choice and circumstance with us not having children. But my biggest thing was I don’t have a blueprint. Like I’m okay with not being a mother, but I don’t really have a blueprint. What is this supposed to look like? How am I supposed to do this? So I love to talk to other women and now it makes perfect sense that we didn’t have children and I have a rich full life and it’s great. But in that moment it was like, what is this supposed to look like? I was mostly bewildered, but looking for who else can I follow here? And what is this, what can this look like? So I just kind of wanted to ask you about your experience and how that felt for you.

Nell Painter 

Well, since you asked me, I did think about it and I have a three-part answer. But the first thing I thought about, I mean, the last thing I thought about, because it only came to me as you were talking about role model and blueprint, which I did not have. I’m the wrong kind of black person.

I’m from California. I didn’t grow up poor. My parents were married until my mother died, so they were married like for 74 years. And I’m not Southern. So I have never felt…like someone who could look to role models. So I didn’t miss that. I didn’t miss that at all. So that’s the part I hadn’t thought about until you spoke about that. What I did think, I thought of three things. One was that as I am an old person, I’m a 20th century person, and when I was marriageable age, to most of the black men in my world wanted, that is to say, educated, middle class, not poor, they wanted light-skinned wives. So if you look around at the marriages and people of my generation and my class, you will see men of many skin colors, but their wives are always light-skinned. So being a dark-skinned woman meant that I was at a discount in the marriage market, and I would never have had children without being married. The second thing has to do with my family.

There’s a photograph early in, I just keep talking, of my parents when I am in utero with my brother. My brother died when he was five and I was an infant. I never knew him. As I say and I just keep talking, I don’t understand how my parents could keep going. But they did. And I read once in scholarly literature, that surviving children sometimes either desperately want children or desperately don’t want children. I was neither of those. I remember one time in North Carolina, a friend of mine, her children were just getting, you know, sort of late teens, early twenties when you can talk to them. And they had such a nice relationship. And I thought, wouldn’t that be lovely? That was the only time I ever really missed having children. So I didn’t feel either way. But I suspect that my brother’s death did influence my approach or my non-approach to being a mother. The third thing is not having, again, in my generation, so I got my PhD in 1974, and I remember so many women, white women even, who got their PhDs, mine is from Harvard, theirs were, you know, from very respectable places, but there was so much misogyny in academia that they just got thrown out and I think if I had had to juggle motherhood with that kind of a professional realm, it would have been really, really hard. So I know women in my generation who, as mothers, just could not do both. So I think I need to, I don’t know if credit is the word, but recognize my childlessness as part of my productivity.

Tricia Burt  

And I think that’s a fabulous way to put that because there’s only so much energy. I mean I really appreciated the part of your book when you’re going back and forth to California. I have a mother right now who’s in Florida who’s in pretty good shape, but she’s 94. There’s a lot of needs there. And so…you know, life is happening while we’re trying to make art and while we’re trying to, and it’s just, I am amazed at women who can do both. But I think you’re absolutely right that there is a lot of creative energy that can go other places that if you’re not raising children and that we leave a legacy in a different way. Thank you so much for answering that question.

Nell Painter

Yeah. Well, I’ve been very fortunate to be able to do what I love doing.

Tricia Burt  

So I have my one last question I to ask all of my guests. Where do you need courage right now?

Nell Painter 

The easy answer is to wake up and face the United States as it is now on a national level. Which is frightening. But I don’t think that is where I need courage because I have so many friends and fellow sister citizens who feel the way I do. I have plenty of company. So that’s not really a need of courage.

Tricia Burt  

Yes.

Nell Painter

Plus as a historian and someone who lives through a good deal of the 20th century, I feel like we’re in a 20th century time in its scariness. But also, so fascinating, the voyeur in me just can’t wait to see what’s going to happen.

Tricia Burt  

Is there a place though with you though in your creativity that you need courage? Is there a place right now of stuff you’re trying to make yourself that is daunting?

Nell Painter 

No, because I know I don’t have to keep everything I make. You know, the lesson that I learned at the studio school is you can erase it. You can cut it up and use it to make something different. You can throw it away.

Tricia Burt  

Absolutely. Yes. There’s a lot of beauty and cutting up a painting that didn’t work. It’s like, let’s make that into something else. Well, Nell I just want to thank you so much because again, the name of the show is No Time to Be Timid and you have done some very, I mean, starting over at 65, doing everything you did before 65. It’s just, a real honor to have you on the show and thank you so much for everything you’ve done.

Nell Painter 

Thank you, Tricia. I’ve really enjoyed our conversation. You asked me things that nobody’s ever asked me for, and that’s enjoyable to think about.

Tricia Burt 

Yeah, thank you so much. Thank you.

Nell clearly shows no sign of slowing down. She is an inspiration. And I love the subtitle of her book, A Memoir of Starting Over. I’ve done it several times in my life and she’s a great reminder to keep branching out and trying new things. In the meantime, here’s some questions to consider. Are you itching to start over? If so, where are you being called to explore? Who are your role models? And who are you a role model for? Are you letting others determine how you think of yourself? What constraints are working for you? And what are some of your healthy addictions that keep your creative well-filled? If you want to learn more about Nell, go to her website, NellPainter.com, and follow her on Instagram, at www.NellPainter. And if you haven’t already, make sure to download a copy of the No Time to Be Timid Manifesto by going to www.trisharoseburt.com slash manifesto.

Thanks for joining us. If you have any questions, feel free to reach out to us podcast@trisharoseburt.com. And if you liked this episode, please share it with one other person that you think will enjoy it. Then maybe talk to them about the parts that resonate. It really helps build our audience. And remember, this is no time to be timid.

No Time to Be Timid is written and produced by me, Trisha Rose Burt. Our episodes are produced and scored by Adam Arnone of Echo Finch. And our executive producers are Amy Grant, Nancy Perot, and Sage Wheeler. I’d also like to thank contributors to my Fractured Atlas Fiscal Sponsorship, which helps make this podcast happen. No Time to Be Timid is a presentation of I Will Be Good Productions.

You can change yourself and change the world It’s no time to be timid if you haven’t heard

You can find what’s true, that’s what you deserve. It’s no time to be timid if you haven’t heard.