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	<title>Comments for Upptäcka Network</title>
	
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	<description>unorthodox thoughts on Christian spirituality</description>
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		<title>Comment on ‘Organic’ Community- my experience by Tanya</title>
		<link>http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/UpptackaComments/~3/r4klttSRQ1U/comment-page-1</link>
		<dc:creator>Tanya</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 May 2011 18:17:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://upptacka.net/?p=405#comment-133</guid>
		<description>Chris- thanks! I love your thoughts on community- and the timing of this was spot on, as recently I have grappeled with so many of these same thoughts and questions. (sadly my last response went awol.)


I will never forget the day I walked into the courtyard of the Schloss arts conference. Back pack laden, I arrived, not knowing a soul. Yet without a conversation , a bible study or cup of coffee I felt the truest sense of "I have come home". 
Within moments, strangers became friends (you being one of them), and soon family, as we shared life and the depths of our hearts over coffee, a strumming banjo and late night cellar cafe sessions. Relationship wasn't forced, or an effort, it just flowed, and it was real and so delightful.

Just like with Rick and your mates, nothing can replace the journey of sharing life, coffees, laughs, tears, prayers, weddings, births and deaths with those special friends and pilgrims that God has put in your life in different seasons... people you can just 'be' with, no facade, no performance, just who you are.

The problem of course is that once you've tasted what's real, the rest tastes like artificial sweetner... the mind and heart can only be 'fooled' for so long before we realise we are hungering for something more. God is that 'more' and when we recogise Him in others, we are drawn to the beauty and warmth of that. There is a 'communion' and fellowship of the spirit, that crosses oceans, shores, cultures, languages. So oddly, I can often feel more of a sense of 'community' and connection with a bunch of people scattered around the world, than I do in a group / community on my own doorstep.

I have come the the conclusion that it is about being "known".. and 'knowing' others-face to face-  that what truely transforms us are the moments when we are 'seen'... like the woman at the well- Jesus saw beyond her fear, shame and sin, and SAW the potential of her freedom and healing, and in an instant she gave up all of the rest of the 'false sweetners' for something real- His love.
As Jonathon David Helser song goes -God's love is "and endless ocean, and a bottomless sea".. "that we are to leave fear on the shore and dive in for more."

So I love what you said about 'dont wait for someone else to create it for you'... dive in, and keep making the space for it to happen! God heart is that the lonely would be drawn into families.
A passage from Henri Nouwens book 'reaching out' has always remained to close to my heart and epitomises community for me... (the word hospitality can easily be substituted for by community)
"Hospitality, therefore means primarily the creation of a free space where a stranger can enter and become a friend instead of an enemy. Hospitality is not to change people, but to offer them a space where change can take place. It is not to bring men and woman to our side, but to offer them freedom not disturbed by dividing lines....It is not an educated intimidation with good books, good stories and good works, but the liberation of fearful hearts so that words can find roots and bear ample fruit.It is not the method of making 'our' God and 'our' way into the criteria of happiness, but an opening and opportunity for others to find 'their' God and their way. 
The paradox of hospitality (community) is that it wants to create emptiness where strangers can enter and discover themselves as created free; free to sing their own songs, speak their own languages, dance their own dances, free also to leave and follow their own vocations. Hospitality (community) is not the subtle invitation to adopt the lifestyle of the host, but the gift and chance for the guest to find his own."...

This is what church should be- and this is what communities like Schloss and those 'coffee shop' friends did-they just created and hosted  a 'free' space for us and others to enter, to discover, sing  and dance in.. and then leave knowing more of who we are created to be!

Rare, beautiful, and something always to be sought after...may we never give up this kind grappling...as yes it is a sweet mystery!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Chris- thanks! I love your thoughts on community- and the timing of this was spot on, as recently I have grappeled with so many of these same thoughts and questions. (sadly my last response went awol.)</p>
<p>I will never forget the day I walked into the courtyard of the Schloss arts conference. Back pack laden, I arrived, not knowing a soul. Yet without a conversation , a bible study or cup of coffee I felt the truest sense of &#8220;I have come home&#8221;.<br />
Within moments, strangers became friends (you being one of them), and soon family, as we shared life and the depths of our hearts over coffee, a strumming banjo and late night cellar cafe sessions. Relationship wasn&#8217;t forced, or an effort, it just flowed, and it was real and so delightful.</p>
<p>Just like with Rick and your mates, nothing can replace the journey of sharing life, coffees, laughs, tears, prayers, weddings, births and deaths with those special friends and pilgrims that God has put in your life in different seasons&#8230; people you can just &#8216;be&#8217; with, no facade, no performance, just who you are.</p>
<p>The problem of course is that once you&#8217;ve tasted what&#8217;s real, the rest tastes like artificial sweetner&#8230; the mind and heart can only be &#8216;fooled&#8217; for so long before we realise we are hungering for something more. God is that &#8216;more&#8217; and when we recogise Him in others, we are drawn to the beauty and warmth of that. There is a &#8216;communion&#8217; and fellowship of the spirit, that crosses oceans, shores, cultures, languages. So oddly, I can often feel more of a sense of &#8216;community&#8217; and connection with a bunch of people scattered around the world, than I do in a group / community on my own doorstep.</p>
<p>I have come the the conclusion that it is about being &#8220;known&#8221;.. and &#8216;knowing&#8217; others-face to face-  that what truely transforms us are the moments when we are &#8216;seen&#8217;&#8230; like the woman at the well- Jesus saw beyond her fear, shame and sin, and SAW the potential of her freedom and healing, and in an instant she gave up all of the rest of the &#8216;false sweetners&#8217; for something real- His love.<br />
As Jonathon David Helser song goes -God&#8217;s love is &#8220;and endless ocean, and a bottomless sea&#8221;.. &#8220;that we are to leave fear on the shore and dive in for more.&#8221;</p>
<p>So I love what you said about &#8216;dont wait for someone else to create it for you&#8217;&#8230; dive in, and keep making the space for it to happen! God heart is that the lonely would be drawn into families.<br />
A passage from Henri Nouwens book &#8216;reaching out&#8217; has always remained to close to my heart and epitomises community for me&#8230; (the word hospitality can easily be substituted for by community)<br />
&#8220;Hospitality, therefore means primarily the creation of a free space where a stranger can enter and become a friend instead of an enemy. Hospitality is not to change people, but to offer them a space where change can take place. It is not to bring men and woman to our side, but to offer them freedom not disturbed by dividing lines&#8230;.It is not an educated intimidation with good books, good stories and good works, but the liberation of fearful hearts so that words can find roots and bear ample fruit.It is not the method of making &#8216;our&#8217; God and &#8216;our&#8217; way into the criteria of happiness, but an opening and opportunity for others to find &#8216;their&#8217; God and their way.<br />
The paradox of hospitality (community) is that it wants to create emptiness where strangers can enter and discover themselves as created free; free to sing their own songs, speak their own languages, dance their own dances, free also to leave and follow their own vocations. Hospitality (community) is not the subtle invitation to adopt the lifestyle of the host, but the gift and chance for the guest to find his own.&#8221;&#8230;</p>
<p>This is what church should be- and this is what communities like Schloss and those &#8216;coffee shop&#8217; friends did-they just created and hosted  a &#8216;free&#8217; space for us and others to enter, to discover, sing  and dance in.. and then leave knowing more of who we are created to be!</p>
<p>Rare, beautiful, and something always to be sought after&#8230;may we never give up this kind grappling&#8230;as yes it is a sweet mystery!</p>
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		<title>Comment on Changing God’s Mind by Chris Lorensson</title>
		<link>http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/UpptackaComments/~3/zf8l8PZGVlE/comment-page-1</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris Lorensson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Feb 2011 23:37:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://upptacka.net/articlez/changing-gods-mind.html#comment-131</guid>
		<description>@Amin

Thanks for your thoughts Amin, very much appreciated and a worthy contribution to this (rather off-the-cuff) article. I will try to check out some of Yusha's Youtube videos you linked to.

What you wrote here:

&lt;blockquote&gt;I think, look for sources on human purpose, asses their arguments for being the truth (direct challenges to individuals are presented in the Qur’an), and once the very point of being alive ourselves is clear; an understanding of the point of other living things will probably follow.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I believe you are quite correct on this. Personally, being a Christian, I believe the purpose of humans is to glorify God. It is from that standpoint I'm questioning this topic. Based on my relatively little study on human diet, some research papers and articles, and what I know of the character of God, it seems that we live in a world that is only a twisted fragment of what it was originally intended to be.

Unfortunately I won't be able to attend the 'How I Came to Islam' conference, though I would have loved to. Thank you for your kind invitation, and don't hestitate to &lt;a href="http://upptacka.net/contact" rel="nofollow"&gt;get in touch&lt;/a&gt; if you'd like to talk web design or anything else.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Amin</p>
<p>Thanks for your thoughts Amin, very much appreciated and a worthy contribution to this (rather off-the-cuff) article. I will try to check out some of Yusha&#8217;s Youtube videos you linked to.</p>
<p>What you wrote here:</p>
<blockquote><p>I think, look for sources on human purpose, asses their arguments for being the truth (direct challenges to individuals are presented in the Qur’an), and once the very point of being alive ourselves is clear; an understanding of the point of other living things will probably follow.</p></blockquote>
<p>I believe you are quite correct on this. Personally, being a Christian, I believe the purpose of humans is to glorify God. It is from that standpoint I&#8217;m questioning this topic. Based on my relatively little study on human diet, some research papers and articles, and what I know of the character of God, it seems that we live in a world that is only a twisted fragment of what it was originally intended to be.</p>
<p>Unfortunately I won&#8217;t be able to attend the &#8216;How I Came to Islam&#8217; conference, though I would have loved to. Thank you for your kind invitation, and don&#8217;t hestitate to <a href="http://upptacka.net/contact" rel="nofollow">get in touch</a> if you&#8217;d like to talk web design or anything else.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Changing God’s Mind by Amin</title>
		<link>http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/UpptackaComments/~3/gez4n9vTSus/comment-page-1</link>
		<dc:creator>Amin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Feb 2011 23:04:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://upptacka.net/articlez/changing-gods-mind.html#comment-130</guid>
		<description>Thoughts like these are interesting, even more so if you full-heartedly pursue an answer.

Modern science explains the 'food web' and 'ecosystems' very well and it is clear that all living things need MANY other living things.

Humans have been given a choice of what to eat. Although "you are what you eat", food is not for establishing your identity, just a means for survival.

Depending on what scripture you read of world religions for instance, you find advice like "stomach should have a third food, a third water and a third empty for easy breathing". A lot of these are supported by modern health advice too such as the emphasis is smaller regular meals.

I find that deciding what to eat without some proof is a conundrum. Everything we eat is from a living thing except salt. Is it fair to assume, that just because we cannot yet understand plants, they have no feelings? And that their lives are worth less than animals? The Helvetica Institute has conducted research, which is being further reviewed, to show plants can feel pain and also communicate with each other. 

You may come across interesting research like 'if cows were allowed to reproduce as normal and never consumed, they would become a major global warming threat'.

The Qur'an explains that everything in the world is subservient to us. Which makes sense to me since we seem to be running things. The same God who made us, with free will, has given us a purpose just as every other thing has a purpose (food web mentioned earlier although that is not the only purpose).

Some things have purposes we cannot comprehend yet but discoveries are made about things in the world/universe all the time. The Qur'an mentions that the universe is expanding 1400 years ago yet for modern science, that's a more recent discovery.

So after (what would be a book or many books) on thinking about it, I think people have a purpose too. 
Everyone tries to justify themselves, everyone believes in reason as do I.

The story of Adam and Eve is different between: 
- the modern day translated English Bible, of which verifiable originals are not really referred to by any denomination, 
- and the Qur'an of which an original exists.  Furthermore, the Qur'an was preserved by its memorisation by millions of people since its revelation. No other scripture was preserved by this means.

I think, look for sources on human purpose, asses their arguments for being the truth (direct challenges to individuals are presented in the Qur'an),  and once the very point of being alive ourselves is clear; an understanding of the point of other living things will probably follow.

But indeed it does take conviction and a commitment to truth, to pursue it your whole life. I wouldn't give it up. I continue on my journey of knowledge and different people have made/are making different amounts of progress on that journey.

I also think that questions about my life and life in general, will be more serious in old age (if I reach it) or even near time of death (if there's some signs of being near it). But that's when its too late.

I'd rather, now, search whilst I have energy. Travel for knowledge, read for it, and stay open minded and reflect continually without bias or emotional attachments. Takes conviction to make sacrifices (big or small) for the truth when you find it.

If you follow the news, media, America or just due to your mentioning of Adam and Eve, it’s definitely worth at least watching Yusha Evan’s very interesting story of his journey. Sometimes easier to watch/listen than to read. Find some time if you can; he gives a great account of pursuing sources of the Bible.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FHYAYajmJvI

Find the videos in order through youtube. I’d be grateful to hear your response if you manage to watch them all. You could ask questions at this event as he will also be there:

http://www.eventbrite.com/event/1327016141/efbnen

My invitation! (I’ll pay, if you got time to come down to London) – I love web design so would be great to meet a professional. We could even discuss food, I found out a bit about the experiment to confirm that slaughtering is the only pain-free (hence humane) way to take an animal's life. Reading your post reminded me of that :)

I’ve included my email address in this post so do email me if you're up for it!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thoughts like these are interesting, even more so if you full-heartedly pursue an answer.</p>
<p>Modern science explains the &#8216;food web&#8217; and &#8216;ecosystems&#8217; very well and it is clear that all living things need MANY other living things.</p>
<p>Humans have been given a choice of what to eat. Although &#8220;you are what you eat&#8221;, food is not for establishing your identity, just a means for survival.</p>
<p>Depending on what scripture you read of world religions for instance, you find advice like &#8220;stomach should have a third food, a third water and a third empty for easy breathing&#8221;. A lot of these are supported by modern health advice too such as the emphasis is smaller regular meals.</p>
<p>I find that deciding what to eat without some proof is a conundrum. Everything we eat is from a living thing except salt. Is it fair to assume, that just because we cannot yet understand plants, they have no feelings? And that their lives are worth less than animals? The Helvetica Institute has conducted research, which is being further reviewed, to show plants can feel pain and also communicate with each other. </p>
<p>You may come across interesting research like &#8216;if cows were allowed to reproduce as normal and never consumed, they would become a major global warming threat&#8217;.</p>
<p>The Qur&#8217;an explains that everything in the world is subservient to us. Which makes sense to me since we seem to be running things. The same God who made us, with free will, has given us a purpose just as every other thing has a purpose (food web mentioned earlier although that is not the only purpose).</p>
<p>Some things have purposes we cannot comprehend yet but discoveries are made about things in the world/universe all the time. The Qur&#8217;an mentions that the universe is expanding 1400 years ago yet for modern science, that&#8217;s a more recent discovery.</p>
<p>So after (what would be a book or many books) on thinking about it, I think people have a purpose too.<br />
Everyone tries to justify themselves, everyone believes in reason as do I.</p>
<p>The story of Adam and Eve is different between:<br />
- the modern day translated English Bible, of which verifiable originals are not really referred to by any denomination,<br />
- and the Qur&#8217;an of which an original exists.  Furthermore, the Qur&#8217;an was preserved by its memorisation by millions of people since its revelation. No other scripture was preserved by this means.</p>
<p>I think, look for sources on human purpose, asses their arguments for being the truth (direct challenges to individuals are presented in the Qur&#8217;an),  and once the very point of being alive ourselves is clear; an understanding of the point of other living things will probably follow.</p>
<p>But indeed it does take conviction and a commitment to truth, to pursue it your whole life. I wouldn&#8217;t give it up. I continue on my journey of knowledge and different people have made/are making different amounts of progress on that journey.</p>
<p>I also think that questions about my life and life in general, will be more serious in old age (if I reach it) or even near time of death (if there&#8217;s some signs of being near it). But that&#8217;s when its too late.</p>
<p>I&#8217;d rather, now, search whilst I have energy. Travel for knowledge, read for it, and stay open minded and reflect continually without bias or emotional attachments. Takes conviction to make sacrifices (big or small) for the truth when you find it.</p>
<p>If you follow the news, media, America or just due to your mentioning of Adam and Eve, it’s definitely worth at least watching Yusha Evan’s very interesting story of his journey. Sometimes easier to watch/listen than to read. Find some time if you can; he gives a great account of pursuing sources of the Bible.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FHYAYajmJvI" rel="nofollow">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FHYAYajmJvI</a></p>
<p>Find the videos in order through youtube. I’d be grateful to hear your response if you manage to watch them all. You could ask questions at this event as he will also be there:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.eventbrite.com/event/1327016141/efbnen" rel="nofollow">http://www.eventbrite.com/event/1327016141/efbnen</a></p>
<p>My invitation! (I’ll pay, if you got time to come down to London) – I love web design so would be great to meet a professional. We could even discuss food, I found out a bit about the experiment to confirm that slaughtering is the only pain-free (hence humane) way to take an animal&#8217;s life. Reading your post reminded me of that :)</p>
<p>I’ve included my email address in this post so do email me if you&#8217;re up for it!</p>
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		<title>Comment on Changing God’s Mind by Chris Lorensson</title>
		<link>http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/UpptackaComments/~3/q5VAV7KTnPI/comment-page-1</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris Lorensson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Jan 2011 00:11:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://upptacka.net/articlez/changing-gods-mind.html#comment-128</guid>
		<description>@Geoff

Hmm - so are you suggesting it's #2 then?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Geoff</p>
<p>Hmm &#8211; so are you suggesting it&#8217;s #2 then?</p>
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		<title>Comment on Changing God’s Mind by Geoff Hall</title>
		<link>http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/UpptackaComments/~3/885-uZV08JU/comment-page-1</link>
		<dc:creator>Geoff Hall</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Nov 2010 14:52:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://upptacka.net/articlez/changing-gods-mind.html#comment-127</guid>
		<description>So, because babies start off with breast milk, does that mean they should continue with this method of feeding for the rest of their lives!?!!!  This conjures up all sorts of WRONG images!! Please go away!  Taking your mother with you on the honeymoon, because you may need to replenish your energy levels due to nocturnal activities, would be quite inappropriate and I would suggest rather difficult for your new spouse to come to turns with!

But I only mentioned that to get your attention!!  Now I have it, it seems to me that we are not too good with grace, that we always want a system to back up our take on all aspects of life, including food.  "Everything in moderation! Wine, beer, sex, food, church"; is my motto!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So, because babies start off with breast milk, does that mean they should continue with this method of feeding for the rest of their lives!?!!!  This conjures up all sorts of WRONG images!! Please go away!  Taking your mother with you on the honeymoon, because you may need to replenish your energy levels due to nocturnal activities, would be quite inappropriate and I would suggest rather difficult for your new spouse to come to turns with!</p>
<p>But I only mentioned that to get your attention!!  Now I have it, it seems to me that we are not too good with grace, that we always want a system to back up our take on all aspects of life, including food.  &#8220;Everything in moderation! Wine, beer, sex, food, church&#8221;; is my motto!</p>
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		<title>Comment on The Gradient of Enlightnement by Chris Lorensson</title>
		<link>http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/UpptackaComments/~3/uIV-SAyJD34/comment-page-1</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris Lorensson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Aug 2010 12:02:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://upptacka.net/?p=319#comment-125</guid>
		<description>Our culture has twisted so many things - but I just choose to ignore things which should be ignored.

The word 'enlightenment' for me, simply means 'The Renewed Mind' mentioned in The Bible - but that is a study in itself, and goes deeper than I care to talk about in a blog comment ;-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Our culture has twisted so many things &#8211; but I just choose to ignore things which should be ignored.</p>
<p>The word &#8216;enlightenment&#8217; for me, simply means &#8216;The Renewed Mind&#8217; mentioned in The Bible &#8211; but that is a study in itself, and goes deeper than I care to talk about in a blog comment ;-)</p>
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		<title>Comment on Why I don’t go to church much: Part 2 by Chris Lorensson</title>
		<link>http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/UpptackaComments/~3/vkxzETNblkI/comment-page-1</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris Lorensson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Aug 2010 11:57:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://upptacka.net/?p=146#comment-124</guid>
		<description>Word Geoff.

Lately I've been thinking how weird it is when 'change' happens naturally - I've had several random conversations with Christians here in Bristol over the last few weeks, and the amount of times I've heard of new, small, communal things starting up is crazy! I love it when people ACT - there was a need, it was filled, and that reminds me of someone I know whose name starts with a 'JE' and ends with an 'SUS'.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Word Geoff.</p>
<p>Lately I&#8217;ve been thinking how weird it is when &#8216;change&#8217; happens naturally &#8211; I&#8217;ve had several random conversations with Christians here in Bristol over the last few weeks, and the amount of times I&#8217;ve heard of new, small, communal things starting up is crazy! I love it when people ACT &#8211; there was a need, it was filled, and that reminds me of someone I know whose name starts with a &#8216;JE&#8217; and ends with an &#8216;SUS&#8217;.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Why I don’t go to church much: Part 2 by Geoff Hall</title>
		<link>http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/UpptackaComments/~3/UG8rMZOGBx4/comment-page-1</link>
		<dc:creator>Geoff Hall</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Aug 2010 11:09:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://upptacka.net/?p=146#comment-123</guid>
		<description>"do you ever get the feeling you’re going to church for some reason other than because you want to?"
All the time actually, but then people throw the old Hebrews 10v25 at ya, and the guilt just piles on!  Well, that of course is based on the assumption and a rather grand one at that, which infers that the only 'meetings' can be at Church, large 'C', institution.

Meeting Places are many and varied: you and I have 'fellowship' at the Watershed or Arnolfini, I meet with a bunch of artists for a drink and a chat about what is happening in contemporary culture, or the spiritual narrative in the latest Lars von Trier film!  Our faith has been institutionalised and dehumanised.  We need to resist this grand theft fide with all our might!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;do you ever get the feeling you’re going to church for some reason other than because you want to?&#8221;<br />
All the time actually, but then people throw the old Hebrews 10v25 at ya, and the guilt just piles on!  Well, that of course is based on the assumption and a rather grand one at that, which infers that the only &#8216;meetings&#8217; can be at Church, large &#8216;C&#8217;, institution.</p>
<p>Meeting Places are many and varied: you and I have &#8216;fellowship&#8217; at the Watershed or Arnolfini, I meet with a bunch of artists for a drink and a chat about what is happening in contemporary culture, or the spiritual narrative in the latest Lars von Trier film!  Our faith has been institutionalised and dehumanised.  We need to resist this grand theft fide with all our might!</p>
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		<title>Comment on Why I don’t go to church much: Part 1 by Geoff Hall</title>
		<link>http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/UpptackaComments/~3/BnIXo3Ff508/comment-page-1</link>
		<dc:creator>Geoff Hall</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Aug 2010 16:02:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://upptacka.net/?p=143#comment-122</guid>
		<description>Hi Dude,

Thanks for sharing this.  I'm one at odds with the church institution, never quite accepted because I have the wrong kinds of gifts; earthly, sensual and devilish are the arts you know.  Whereas if I was an engineer, nurse or teacher then God could use me for His mission to the nations!
What I have done and am doing, is learning to discern the difference between the church and the Church, the community and the Institution.  Most services are for institutions, a liturgy stripped bare of the original context and nothng to do with life in the big wide world, where God is MUCH busier!!  Collecting money for institution was never the real reason for giving to God!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Dude,</p>
<p>Thanks for sharing this.  I&#8217;m one at odds with the church institution, never quite accepted because I have the wrong kinds of gifts; earthly, sensual and devilish are the arts you know.  Whereas if I was an engineer, nurse or teacher then God could use me for His mission to the nations!<br />
What I have done and am doing, is learning to discern the difference between the church and the Church, the community and the Institution.  Most services are for institutions, a liturgy stripped bare of the original context and nothng to do with life in the big wide world, where God is MUCH busier!!  Collecting money for institution was never the real reason for giving to God!</p>
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		<title>Comment on The Gradient of Enlightnement by Geoff Hall</title>
		<link>http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/UpptackaComments/~3/1fuq0K0uF5A/comment-page-1</link>
		<dc:creator>Geoff Hall</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Aug 2010 15:37:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://upptacka.net/?p=319#comment-121</guid>
		<description>Hi Dude,
For me it's not about enlightenment, but revelation, whether in book form or flesh and blood epiphanies!

Enlightenment is such a tainted word, full of the grand delusion of Modernity's bastard child, rationalism!  If it can't be rationalised, it just can't be 'real', right?  Or by an Eastern Tradition of 'enlightenment' which generally speaking is about losing yourself in the vastness of nihilism and depersonalised spirituality.  Atomisation set over against personal spirituality located in the Cosmos of Wonder and Love (not shock and awe!) and lived and breathed in a community of like-hearted beings! 



S</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Dude,<br />
For me it&#8217;s not about enlightenment, but revelation, whether in book form or flesh and blood epiphanies!</p>
<p>Enlightenment is such a tainted word, full of the grand delusion of Modernity&#8217;s bastard child, rationalism!  If it can&#8217;t be rationalised, it just can&#8217;t be &#8216;real&#8217;, right?  Or by an Eastern Tradition of &#8216;enlightenment&#8217; which generally speaking is about losing yourself in the vastness of nihilism and depersonalised spirituality.  Atomisation set over against personal spirituality located in the Cosmos of Wonder and Love (not shock and awe!) and lived and breathed in a community of like-hearted beings! </p>
<p>S</p>
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