But today he is in no doubt about the relevance of the department.

He told me:

There was a moment under the previous Labour Government when it did look like the office of the Secretary of State for Wales and indeed the Wales Office as a department was becoming somewhat redundant. You had Welsh Labour ministers who were doing the job of Secretary of State for Wales almost as a kind of part-time bit of voluntary work, alongside serious, very big, full-time cabinet roles elsewhere. Now what's happened under this coalition Government is the prime minister has been very clear; he wants the Wales Office to have a reinvigorated role and I pay huge tribute to my two predecessors who've done exactly that. The prime minister wanted this department to play more of an economic role, to work with other UK Government departments and the Welsh Government, to work on the long-term economic plan, to help secure new investment to Wales, to bring new jobs to Wales, and that's the Wales Office is developing into...

[I] think if the Wales Office didn't exist you'd probably have to invent something that did its job because you do need something at the heart of Government here in Whitehall which acts as a champion of Welsh interests. You do need a mechanism which acts as a pivot between UK Government departments and [the] Welsh Government, helping to bridge the devolution settlement - so there is a very clear and purposeful role for the Wales Office in 2014. But it requires serious intent from an ambitious Government, a Government that's ambitious for Wales, to see that role fully realised.

But today he is in no doubt about the relevance of the department.

He told me:

There was a moment under the previous Labour Government when it did look like the office of the Secretary of State for Wales and indeed the Wales Office as a department was becoming somewhat redundant. You had Welsh Labour ministers who were doing the job of Secretary of State for Wales almost as a kind of part-time bit of voluntary work, alongside serious, very big, full-time cabinet roles elsewhere. Now what's happened under this coalition Government is the prime minister has been very clear; he wants the Wales Office to have a reinvigorated role and I pay huge tribute to my two predecessors who've done exactly that. The prime minister wanted this department to play more of an economic role, to work with other UK Government departments and the Welsh Government, to work on the long-term economic plan, to help secure new investment to Wales, to bring new jobs to Wales, and that's the Wales Office is developing into...

[I] think if the Wales Office didn't exist you'd probably have to invent something that did its job because you do need something at the heart of Government here in Whitehall which acts as a champion of Welsh interests. You do need a mechanism which acts as a pivot between UK Government departments and [the] Welsh Government, helping to bridge the devolution settlement - so there is a very clear and purposeful role for the Wales Office in 2014. But it requires serious intent from an ambitious Government, a Government that's ambitious for Wales, to see that role fully realised.

Michael Fabricant (Lichfield) (Con): If the National Assembly of Wales is going to have borrowing powers, and if it is going to smell like a Parliament and look like a Parliament, is it not time that it became the National Parliament of Wales?

Mr Jones: I am not entirely sure how a Parliament smells.

Mr Hunt said: "What [he] says would have some credibility if he looked at the facts. Fact: under this Government, we hit the A and E target for last year. Fact: Wales, where Labour is in control, has not hit the A and E target since 2009."

Mr Burnham's response? "Forget Wales!"

Mr Hunt liked that. He said: "[He says] 'Forget Wales,' but why has he never once been prepared to condemn the appalling failures in A and E in Wales, caused by the Welsh Labour Government's decision to cut NHS spending by 8%? What he says would have some credibility were he at least prepared to condemn what has happened in Wales, but he never does."

Cynon Valley Labour MP Ann Clwyd raised a sobering case of how whistleblowers can be treated, saying: "I ask the Secretary of State to deplore the personal attacks that are being made on Julie Bailey, who was responsible for drawing attention to the many deficiencies in Mid Staffordshire hospital. She has suffered personal attacks in the street and has had faeces pushed through her letterbox. We should all deplore the fact that that is happening to such an important and brave whistleblower."

Mr Hunt: replied: "The right hon. Lady speaks wisely, and I completely concur with her comments. Those attacks are totally reprehensible and I condemn them utterly. Julie Bailey is a remarkable lady, and it is thanks to her that the standard of compassionate care in hospitals across the country is going to improve dramatically. We all owe her a huge debt."

One of the leading economists of the Thatcher era is sympathetic to the idea:

The proposals for the break-up of the banks and the creation of regional outfits was welcomed by leading Cardiff University economist Professor Patrick Minford. He said: "I do agree the banks should be broken up and we want more competition. We want competition everywhere in the regional economies. "It's competition that gets credit going and means banks look at applications carefully... We haven't got competition because these great big banks have been taken on by the Government." He added: "It's a crazy business seeing Government tie itself up so much in knots." However, he warned against over-regulation and did not see the need to split apart high street lending and investment banking. He said: "All this ring-fencing is just raising costs."