Walnut Creek Office Space

Mortgage Forecast

Andrew — Fri, 16 Dec 2005 01:16:35 +0000

East Bay Business Times - 1:22 PM PST Tuesday

State mortgage group issues forecast

The California Association of Mortgage Brokers predicted that mortgage rates will hit 7 percent for 30-year fixed-rate mortgages in the coming year and that 40-year fixed-rate loans will become more common.

More than 80 percent of member brokers surveyed in an annual forecast released Monday believe interest rates will continue to climb.

“A moderate increase in mortgage rates should not concern home buyers,” said John Marcell, president of the association, in a statement. “However, it is alarming that the housing affordability crisis will continue, making it difficult for first-time home buyers to qualify for adequate financing.”

The forecast also said that housing affordability will remain a challenge for many Californians, even though the market is not as red hot and despite the fact that prices are expected to stabilize.

In its fourth membership survey, 60 percent of the brokers believe that 40-year fixed loans will be more economical as well as accessible for home buyers next year. And reverse mortgages, 100 percent financing and adjustable loans with low “start rates” or beginning interest rate from which the rate can fluctuate also will remain popular.

But Marcell sounded a note of caution: “As home buyers prepare for 2006, they must be educated about which loans will work best for their financial situation. Alternative loans make the dream of home ownership a reality for some consumers, but it is important to realize they are not for everyone and there can be pitfalls.”

The survey from the mortgage brokers’ association was conducted in November and 300 members responded.

Hot Housing Market Still ‘Cruising’

Andrew — Wed, 14 Dec 2005 00:14:22 +0000

Hot Housing Market Still ‘Cruising’; Although there are signs of slowing in certain regions, a real estate-led recession in California is unlikely, a UCLA forecast now says.

Annette Haddad
Times Staff Writer
969 words
7 December 2005
Los Angeles Times
Home Edition
C-1
English
Copyright 2005 The Los Angeles Times

UCLA Anderson Forecast, among the first economic prognosticators to proclaim that California’s housing boom was peaking, is now singing a slightly different tune.

The housing boom isn’t quite over yet, it says.

Although signs of slowing are starting to crop up in certain regions, “there is lack of convincing evidence of a slowdown in the big picture,” according to UCLA’s quarterly forecast on California’s economy to be released today.

Southern California “is one part of the state that’s got some zip in it,” said Ryan Ratcliff, an economist and author of the latest forecast. “We’re not accelerating but we are still cruising along at 80 to 90 miles an hour.”

However, the state’s housing market will probably begin to slow over the next two years. That would lead to a loss of 2% of the jobs in construction and other real estate occupations and force Californians who have tapped into their homes’ equity to rein in spending, Ratcliff said.

Such a scenario points to “anemic” growth for the state’s economy in 2006-07, but not a full-blown recession, he said.

Ratcliff’s view contrasts with previous UCLA forecasts that pointed to a possible real estate-led recession. With so much of the state’s economy dependent on the housing sector, they argued, signs of deceleration were cause for concern.

The Anderson Forecast, best known nationally for having accurately predicted the 2001 recession, has long argued that real estate prices in California and the U.S. are unsustainable, partly because property values have climbed far faster than personal incomes.

As recently as September, UCLA Anderson Forecast economist Christopher Thornberg said California’s housing boom appeared to be peaking, and the resulting slowdown was expected to produce weak economic growth over the next two years and a possible recession by the end of 2007.

In researching the latest report, Ratcliff said he wanted to take “a deeper look at the data before proclaiming the end of the real estate boom.” His conclusion: It depends on whether you see the glass as half empty or half full. Ratcliff falls into the half-full camp.

He found that the year-over-year rate of home-price appreciation was no longer growing in the Bay Area and was growing slower in Southern California. But price changes are still running about 18% above year-ago levels. That suggested to him that although the pace of price growth may be slowing, “we’re still a long way from prices flattening out.”

That analysis also applies to home sales, he said. Looking at seasonally adjusted sales for both regions, “you might see a plateau starting about March of 2004, or even the beginnings of a decline if you like your glasses half empty,” Ratcliff said.

“But looking back over the entire graph, there have been several instances since 2001 where sales have flattened out for a few months, only to pick up again.”

Despite his optimism, several counties show more definitive signs of cooling off. Sales in San Francisco County are off 20% from their June 2004 peak, and prices are down 5% from their May high. San Diego County’s market has lost steam as well, but price increases have leveled off to a flat rate of growth.

The two counties’ housing markets differ because of jobs, Ratcliff found. Areas with severe job losses also experienced bigger home-price declines. San Francisco saw 4% of its information jobs disappear since January, whereas San Diego has not had any significant job losses.

The strength of the job market will determine whether California’s real estate market takes a hard fall or finds a soft landing, Ratcliff said. He predicts a soft landing, with Southern California and other regions eventually following San Diego’s path — home prices leveling off and sales ticking down moderately.

In past recessions, jobs in both the construction and durable manufacturing sectors had to contract before the economy tanked, the forecast said. Construction remains the fastest growing sector year to date at 5.8%, and now accounts for 6.2% of employment in California. That’s almost the same proportion as durable manufacturing jobs in the state.

“The key reason why there will be more of an economic slowdown than a recession is that you usually need two sectors” to show significant job loss, Ratcliff said. This time, if only construction jobs contract at the 2% rate he is predicting, that wouldn’t trigger a severe downturn, he said.

The housing downturn of the early 1990s was set off by massive job losses. Between 1990 and 1993, California lost 510,000 jobs. Of those, 52% were in manufacturing and 36% were in construction.

California’s job picture has been lackluster in recent months. The rate of employment growth has slowed after a significant number of jobs were added in July and August, Ratcliff said.

But other economic signposts help support Ratcliff’s view of the glass half full for the state’s economy. Personal income and taxable sales were up 8% and 6.4% year-over-year, respectively, in the second quarter.

As for the national economy, Edward Leamer, director of the UCLA Anderson Forecast, expects the U.S. housing market to start to slow next year and construction and real estate-related jobs to contract. But the outlook for manufacturing jobs is positive.

“Without significant job loss in manufacturing, we are not likely to have a recession-level elevation in joblessness,” Leamer said in his report on the U.S. economy.

GRAPHIC: Construction forecast;CREDIT: Los Angeles Times

Inventories Rise as Speculative Buying Slows In Once-Hot Markets

Andrew — Wed, 14 Dec 2005 00:13:52 +0000

Investors Retreat From Housing Market — Inventories Rise as Speculative Buying Slows In Once-Hot Markets Like Phoenix and San Diego

By Ruth Simon
1,353 words
7 December 2005
The Wall Street Journal
D1
English
(Copyright (c) 2005, Dow Jones & Company, Inc.)

INDIVIDUALS ARE pulling back from buying homes and condos as an investment, in a move that could accelerate the cooling of the housing market.

In markets such as Las Vegas, Miami, Phoenix, San Diego and Washington, D.C., where investor activity had been heated, fewer people are competing to buy properties as an investment, real-estate brokers and housing analysts say. Some investor-owned properties are returning to the market for sale. With the pace of price appreciation slowing, some investors who were betting on quick profits are instead being squeezed.

The apparent pullback by investors is recent and is just beginning to show up in national data. Evidence of the development can also be seen in a number of markets that had until recently been a hotbed of investor activity. As speculators withdraw from the market in San Diego, for instance, the number of investors buying property has fallen by nearly half, estimates Russ Valone, president of MarketPointe Realty Advisors, which tracks the San Diego housing market.

In the Phoenix area, as many as 30% of properties for sale are currently owned by investors, says Jay Butler, director of the Arizona Real Estate Center at Arizona State University. Six months ago, most investors were buying rather than selling, he says. The shift has helped to drive up inventories of homes for sale in the Phoenix area, which climbed to 22,340 in October from 8,600 in April, according to data from the Arizona Regional Multiple Listing Service.

In the latest sign that the housing market is cooling, the National Association of Realtors said yesterday that its index of pending home sales dropped 3.2% in October. The reading is the lowest since March.

It’s too early to tell just how a pullback by investors will affect the broader housing market, but their impact on the housing boom has been considerable. Investors accounted for 9.6% of mortgages used to purchase homes in the first nine months of this year, the most recent data available, up from 6.7% in 2002, according to LoanPerformance, a unit of First American Corp. But the investor share began to drop in the third quarter, the firm says. The figures don’t include second homes that may also provide rental income and serve as an investment.

A softening in investor demand is likely to accentuate any slowdown in home sales, says David Berson, chief economist at mortgage giant Fannie Mae. He estimates that home sales will fall 10.4% over the next two years, largely because of a decline in investor and second-home purchases. Mr. Berson also figures that without the recent surge in these purchases, home sales would have been 7.3% lower in each of the past two years. That estimate assumes that investment properties and second homes account for 10% of total sales.

Another concern is that investors will be quicker to sell if prices soften, accentuating any downturn, particularly in areas where speculation has been most prevalent. Some of the most vulnerable markets include Daytona, Fla., Las Vegas, Phoenix and Fresno and Bakersfield, Calif., according to Credit Suisse First Boston analyst Dennis McGill.

Even if investors don’t all rush for the exits at once, more investor-owned properties are likely to return to the market over the next few years. In part, that’s because many investors have bought preconstruction properties that won’t be ready for occupancy for another year or two.

To be sure, investor demand remains strong in some parts of the country as investors take their profits in markets that have seen double-digit gains and move into areas such as Dallas, where price gains haven’t been so steep. And while it’s getting tougher for speculators to make a quick buck, brokers say that opportunities remain for investors who plan to hold their properties for several years.

Earlier this year, Sandra Geary, a broker in California’s Sonoma County, was running seminars that drew as many as 200 would-be investors. She’s also taken California investors on out-of-state home-buying expeditions to Arizona, Idaho, Nevada and Oregon and bought more than 30 rental properties for her own portfolio. But in recent months, her investor sales have fallen more than 75%. “Now that the market is slowing down, it’s scaring investors away,” she says.

Some brokers are advising speculators to put away their checkbooks. “I’m telling people who want to buy new construction to flip it that the gig is up,” says Frank Borges LLosa, a real-estate agent in Arlington, Va.

Last year, Mike Morgan, a real-estate broker in Stuart, Fla., set up a Web site designed to attract investors scouring the Internet for preconstruction properties. But with the market softening, Mr. Morgan has cut back on promoting his site. Now, he works only with investors seeking “buy and hold” properties. “I haven’t sold an investor a property to flip since June,” he says.

Some investors also are backing out of preconstruction properties they bought. In San Diego, cancellation rates for new condominium units climbed 47% in the third quarter over the second, in part because a growing number of investors are getting cold feet, according to the Building Industry Association of San Diego County.

Cancellation rates for condo units are also rising in many other markets, including Florida and metropolitan Washington, according to the National Association of Home Builders. “It’s largely because of investors” pulling back, says NAHB staff vice president for research Gopal Ahluwalia. “A whole lot of condo units are sitting empty.” Whether a buyer can easily get out of a deal can depend on a number of factors, including the builder’s policies and the terms of the buyer’s contract.

With price appreciation slowing, it’s getting tougher for investors looking to quickly flip a property to earn a return that’s high enough to cover brokerage commissions, mortgage costs and other expenses. Prices for existing homes are expected to rise 12.4% this year, according to the National Association of Realtors, well above the 5.3% average annual gain since 1990.

Some investors are already getting pinched. Barry Fiske, an account manager, teamed up with a friend to buy a bungalow in the oceanside town of Hingham, Mass. The pair tore down the house and put up a three-story Victorian home that went on the market in October, priced at $889,000. After three price cuts, the asking price is now $799,000 and the opportunities to profit are “marginal,” Mr. Fiske says. “We probably spent more than we originally intended to,” he adds.

Robert Cayouette, a computer programmer, has put down deposits on 10 homes under construction in Florida, figuring he’d quickly flip them and make a profit of about $30,000 apiece. The first of those purchases, a three-bedroom home in Port St. Lucie, is expected to close this month. But Mr. Cayouette has learned he’ll be lucky if the house fetches $285,000, or $10,000 less than his original purchase price. “I wouldn’t be able to flip it if I wanted to,” says Mr. Cayouette.

With home prices growing faster than rental rates, investors who decide to rent out their properties rather than sell them often can’t make enough to cover mortgage payments, taxes and other costs. Arash Yazdi, an information technology consultant, decided to rent out his $465,000 townhouse in Merrifield, Va., this fall after a deal to sell the home fell through. He figures he’s losing about $1,000 a month.

—

Signs of Cooling

Investors are shying away from residential real estate in some markets as
house-price appreciation slows.

— Some brokers are advising investors looking to buy and flip properties
to put away their checkbooks.

— More purchase deals on condos are falling through as investors get cold
feet.

— With inventories of homes for sale rising, some investors are seeking
renters instead.

State mortgage group issues forecast

Andrew — Wed, 14 Dec 2005 00:12:44 +0000

East Bay Business Times - 1:22 PM PST Tuesday, 12/6/05

State mortgage group issues forecast

More than 80 percent of member brokers surveyed in an annual forecast released Monday believe interest rates will continue to climb.

The forecast also said that housing affordability will remain a challenge for many Californians, even though the market is not as red hot and despite the fact that prices are expected to stabilize.

The survey from the mortgage brokers’ association was conducted in November and 300 members responded.

Andrew — Fri, 10 Jun 2005 21:56:28 +0000

Costar, June 10, 2005, Written by Serena Bilyeu

Owner/User Sells Medical/Dental Facility for $268/SF

Investors Buy 4,000 SF at 3556 Concord

Lawrence and Hera Blazer purchased 3556 Concord Blvd. in Concord. Total consideration for the deal was approximately $1.096 million, or about $268 per square foot.

Built in 1965, the one-story office building totals 4,083 square feet with frontage on Concord and Farm Bureau. The buyer has been a tenant in the building for approximately 10 years.

Charles Levine with Village Associates Real Estate Inc. in Orinda represented the buyers. Bill Hester with Keegan & Coppin Co.- ONCOR in Larkspur represented the sellers, Arthur and Deborah Ablin, MD.

Andrew — Fri, 10 Jun 2005 21:55:23 +0000

From Costar, June 10, 2005, Written by Adam Jarrett

Two in Woodlands Office Park Sell for $7M

Investors Acquire 3000-3050 Citrus Circle in Walnut Creek

The group Citrus Circle Office Associates LLC acquired 3000-3050 Citrus Circle in the Woodlands Office Park in Walnut Creek for $7 million, or about $135 per square foot, with a 6.8% cap rate.

Built in 1980, the two office buildings total 52,000 square feet on 1.75 acres. Both properties are two stories and offer parking for 208 cars.

Kevin Van Voorhis and Andy Zighelboim of Colliers International in Walnut Creek represented the buyer and the seller, Palo Alto Development Corp.

Walnut Creek / Pleasanton Office space: REIT purchase

Andrew — Fri, 10 Jun 2005 01:21:05 +0000

East Bay Business Journal, April 8, 2005
RREEF buys CarrAmerica, Mount Diablo Plaza next
Katherine Conrad

Investment giant RREEF plans to close escrow this month on Mount Diablo Plaza in Walnut Creek - just after buying Pleasanton’s CarrAmerica Corporate Center in a deal valued at $197.3 million.

RREEF, Deutsche Bank Group’s real estate arm headquartered in Chicago, is reported to be paying $91 million or $285 a square foot for the 319,000-square-foot Class A office complex in downtown Walnut Creek. The 20-year-old buildings changed hands two years ago for $62 million.

That deal and the one in Pleasanton, which was sealed in the final days of March, come on the heels of RREEF’s purchase last year of One Concord Center, a 350,000-square-foot tower in Concord.

“This means that the demand for investment real estate is at an all-time high, fueled by the supply of investment capital seeking real estate investments,” said Kevin Van Voorhis, senior vice president for Colliers International. “RREEF is a good owner, operator and manager of real estate, one of the best.

“(The deals) are a very strong statement about their belief in the East Bay market.”

As capital continues to flow into real estate, the competition among investors for prime properties has driven them to the secondary markets, including the suburbs. Bay Area sales volume exceeded 70 percent during 2004, according to BT Commercial Real Estate/NAI.

As RREEF expands its East Bay footprint, it also has enlarged its U.S. portfolio by closing three - more than any other investment firm - of the 20 largest property transactions in the country during the first quarter of 2005.

RREEF purchased 505 Montgomery St. in San Francisco for $121 million; LNR Warner Center in Woodland Hills for $155 million; and Riverfront Office Park in Cambridge, Mass., for $175 million.

CarrAmerica Realty Corp. received $154 million in the deal by selling 81 percent of its interest in the property to RREEF.

CarrAmerica to still manage center
CarrAmerica, which bought the 1-million-square-foot complex in 1996, will continue to manage the 60-acre campus, the largest within Pleasanton’s Hacienda business park.

With an 85 percent occupancy rate, the center is home to Ross Stores Inc., Safeway Inc., AT&T Corp., SBC Communications and Cingular Wireless.

“This is great for the market because it keeps CarrAmerica here while bringing in a huge pension fund like RREEF,” said Colliers International Senior Vice President Ted Helgans, the leasing agent for the property and a consultant in the deal handled by Secured Capital Corp. “I think it’s a good opportunity for two major players like RREEF and CarrAmerica. They make a powerful team.”

Office Space: Commercial Office Building Sales

Andrew — Fri, 10 Jun 2005 01:15:49 +0000

East Bay Business Times, May 13, 2005
Prentiss plans to buy 1333 B’way
Katherine Conrad

Stepping up its buying spree in Oakland, Prentiss Properties Trust now proposes to purchase 1333 Broadway from San Francisco-based ATC Partners LLC.

“We’re trying and we think we will succeed. Our intent is to buy it,” said Mike Keely, regional director of leasing for Dallas-based Prentiss. “But we’re a publicly traded company so we can’t pre-announce our acquisitions.”

If the company succeeds, 1333 Broadway will be added to an impressive roster of buildings in Prentiss’ portfolio, including 1901 Harrison St., the Ordway Building at 1 Kaiser Plaza, 155 Grand Ave. and 2101 Webster St. The Webster Street tower was bought last fall for $64.75 million from the estate of Charles Pankow, founder of Pankow Builders.

“We’ve done very well in Oakland,” Keely said. “We like what’s going on in Oakland, especially with all the housing.”

Prentiss now owns 1.4 million square feet of the Lake Merritt market. If the Broadway building closes escrow, Prentiss will compete toe-to-toe with Oakland’s other large landlord, Shorenstein Co., which owns 1.5 million square feet in downtown Oakland market.

The sale of the 10-story Broadway building, which is 95 percent leased, marks a change in investment strategy for ATC Partners and its real estate fund, Lubert Adler of Philadelphia, which bought the Broadway building in 2000 for $31.8 million. That price was considered low at the time. The current selling price was not disclosed, but it was rumored to be about $40 million.

ATC, which also has 300 California St. in San Francisco on the block, is focusing on Class B, suburban office products, according to Mike Halper, ATC’s managing member.

The firm just bought the Woodlands, a two-building, 48,000-square-foot business center in Walnut Creek’s Shadelands business park that is 25 percent vacant. The purchase follows close on the heels of buying West Valley Executive Park in San Jose for $18.6 million.

“The ones that we’re buying is the B product,” Halper said. “It is a switch in strategy, but that’s where the market is and that’s where we’re able to get our returns.”

ATC will be trading such tenants as Providian Financial Corp. and URS Engineers, both of which command three floors in Oakland, for dozens of much smaller tenants in Walnut Creek.

Office Space: Concord Office Project for Sale

Andrew — Fri, 10 Jun 2005 01:12:21 +0000

East Bay Business Times, May 20, 2005
Commercial space
R&B cashes in on Concord Plaza
Katherine Conrad

Reynolds & Brown is sifting through a dozen or so bids from buyers interested in acquiring the Concord Airport Plaza, the company’s flagship property as well as its headquarters.

Interest is high, said BT Commercial Real Estate/NAI’s Michael Speers, the exclusive broker for the 354,000-square-foot Class A property built by Reynolds & Brown in 1984 and 1985.

“We have received a tremendous amount of interest due in part to the long-term tenancy of Wells Fargo Bank, who has occupied a majority of the project since 1985,” Speers says. “Wells Fargo occupies 93 percent of the buildings and they have options to remain going out 35 years.”

No asking price was set, but Mt. Diablo Plaza in Walnut Creek sold for more than $275 a square foot this month. Oakland office towers are commanding about $200 a square feet. Concord likely would be somewhere in the middle, probably toward the higher end.

The complex, with its fountain and courtyard, has been called a sleeper in the market because Reynolds & Brown, which has developed 8 million square feet during its 40 years in business, has owned the property since it was built and Wells Fargo almost immediately took the bulk of the space.

Why sell the six-story twin structures now? Mike Hurd, president of the development company, replies: “Generally we are not sellers. We build long-term equity in real estate and utilize that. But in every investment there reaches a point in time, where you look at the market and the value that can be created with the market forces at work.

“There are some pretty dynamic things going on that may or may not repeat themselves.”

Translation: Hurd has never seen so many office parks changing hands at such high prices. “It’s frothy,” he says.

Whether Reynolds & Brown stays on as a tenant remains to be seen.

Meanwhile, the company is breaking ground on its Antioch business park, whose residential component was the target of a successful citywide referendum last June.

Commercial Real Estate: REIT Investor News

Andrew — Wed, 08 Jun 2005 17:29:47 +0000

Leading the News

ProLogis to Buy Rival for $3.6 Billion

By Dennis K. Berman and Ray A. Smith
705 words
6 June 2005
The Wall Street Journal
A3
English
(Copyright (c) 2005, Dow Jones & Company, Inc.)

ProLogis is buying fellow real-estate investment trust Catellus Development Corp., in a $3.6 billion cash and stock deal that will create the nation’s largest REIT focused on warehouse and distribution properties, the companies said last night.

The deal, which is expected to be announced today, will give Catellus shareholders $2.35 billion in ProLogis stock and an additional $1.26 billion in cash. That price represents a takeover premium of 16%. ProLogis will also assume $1.3 billion of Catellus’ debt in what is so far the largest U.S. real-estate deal of 2005.

Aurora, Colo.-based ProLogis owns and manages more than 2,000 industrial distribution centers in 75 markets throughout the world, and primarily serves other large multinational corporations shipping products around the world. “It is a significantly expanding global economy,” ProLogis President and Chief Operating Officer Walter C. Rakowich said in an interview last night. “By being a larger company, we can better take advantage of customers as they expand” throughout Asia, Europe, and the U.S.

Catellus — a historical remnant of the Sante Fe Pacific Corp. railroad, which originally spun off the company 15 years ago — primarily operated industrial buildings near railroad lines. Since then, the company has expanded rapidly, and now has 40.5 million square feet of property under management, which is primarily in distribution centers but also in mixed-use and residential projects such as Union Station in Los Angeles.

Under the terms of the deal, Catellus shareholders will get the choice of either $33.81 in cash per share or an exchange of .822 shares of ProLogis stock for each of their Catellus shares. Those elections will be prorated, so that the entire deal will consist of 65% stock and 35% cash.

On Friday, shares of ProLogis rose five cents to close at $41.37 in 4 p.m. composite trading on the New York Stock Exchange. Also on the Big Board, Catellus fell 12 cents to $29.24.

This purchase will solidify ProLogis as a leader in the consolidation of the industrial REIT sector, which is now becoming a sector with a handful of big companies rather than a multitude of players.

The deal comes one year after ProLogis bought Keystone Property Trust, a West Conshohocken, Pa., industrial REIT for about $1.7 billion. That transaction expanded ProLogis’ portfolio to include four of North America’s key logistics markets — New Jersey, Eastern Pennsylvania, Indianapolis and the Miami airport market — and positioned the REIT to take advantage of the recovering U.S. industrial real-estate market.

Demand for industrial space in the U.S. is increasing, particularly for new space. Industrial real-estate tenants leased an additional 20 million square feet of space in the first quarter, up from an additional 13.6 million in the year-ago quarter, pushing the national vacancy rate down to an average of 10.8% from 11%, according to real-estate research firm Reis Inc. Completed constructed industrial buildings rose to 15.1 million from nearly 11 million.

In response, and in anticipation of even more demand, ProLogis has ramped up development in North America to 3.9 million square feet, a marked increase over recent years. Some of the new construction is “build to suit,” for tenants that have committed to occupying the space. But a fair amount is for what the company calls “inventory,” space that is built for a growing customer before the customer actually realizes it needs to lease more space.

As the overall U.S. industrial real-estate market softened due to the economic downturn in the early half of the decade, ProLogis built up its portfolio abroad. ProLogis has 311 million square feet owned, managed and under development. In recent years, it has been extremely active in Europe and in Asia, mainly China and Japan. Last month, the company announced the planned development of a one million square foot distribution park at Beijing Airport.

Prologis was advised by Bank of America and attorneys at Mayer, Brown, Rowe & Maw. Catellus was advised by Morgan Stanley and law firm O’Melveny & Myers.