In this episode, Tod and George unpack Derek Lin’s thoughts on natural balance, explore the concept of “pro-anoia” (the antidote to paranoia), and delve into the philosophical writings of Dr. Carl Totton that he claims could be a successor to the “Tao Te Ching.”

George shares how to relax your nervous system through breathing, including his “LSD through the nose” technique. They also review Derek Lin’s “Best Time to Learn” and the parable of the Mexican Fisherman.

Tod recently read “The Original Tao” (aka the Nei-Yeh), a Taoist work likely written before the Tao Te Ching, and he shares its central theme. Also, George shares the concept of response-ability, and the two review Chuang Tzu’s thoughts on the need to win.

Episode Transcript

Key ideas discussed:

• What the Nei-Yeh is and how it relates to the Tao Te Ching
• Cultivating tranquility in Taoism
• Reacting versus responding
• How our beliefs shape our perception of reality
• Meditation and emotional reactivity
• Chuang Tzu’s warning about becoming attached to winning

[01:02] Tod Perry: Hello, everybody. Welcome back to What’s This Tao All About? My name is Tod Perry, and I’ve studied Taoism for nearly 30 years. I’m on a journey to take the mysterious words of Taoist sages such as Lao Tzu and Chuang Tzu and share them with the world in a fun and practical way. With me is the wonderful George Thompson.

[01:22] George Thompson: Hi, my name’s George, and I’ve had the privilege of studying in the Wudang Mountains in China. I’ve dedicated my life to exploring Taoism and sharing what I’ve learned. [Final words of introduction partially unclear.]

[01:37] Tod Perry: Now, before we do every recording session, we do, like, a little Google News search to see if there’s anything new in the world of Taoism, which is weird because, as we know, Taoism has been around since the fourth century before the Common Era, so there’s not a lot of news happening in the world of Taoism. But I did find this funny story. It was in Taiwan. Taiwan BTS fans are turning to Taoist love magic in hopes of scoring concert tickets. And for those who don’t know, BTS is a huge K-pop group.

[02:13] Tod Perry / George Thompson: [Brief joking aside about BTS and K-pop; several words are obscured by crosstalk.]

[02:30] George Thompson: One thing I noticed when I was in the Wudang Mountains was that, in the old-school religious Taoist culture, local farmers would come and bring offerings – a thing of rice, for example – and basically say, ‘I’m giving you this rice. Can you make sure my rice crop is okay for the next year?’ It can become quite a transactional relationship with the divine.

[03:10] Tod Perry: Yeah. You know, I’m not really that big on the idea of a transactional relationship with the divine. I think it’s more about harmony, and, you know, ‘What can I do for the divine?’ The funny thing is, the divine can usually do things for itself. It’s divine. It doesn’t need my help.

[03:28] George Thompson: Yeah. It’s like when I was a kid and my dad had a bad back, and I would pray to Jesus, like, ‘Can you fix my dad’s back?’ Then my relationship with Jesus becomes, ‘I pray for something; you give it to me.’ It’s a transactional relationship. For me, prayer now is more like asking for support, or connecting to something larger than myself – consciousness asking another, greater consciousness – rather than sending a specific request and expecting a specific thing back.

[04:10] Tod Perry: There was actually a study they did with people who prayed often when they were sick, especially with a serious or terminal disease. They found worse health outcomes in some of the people who prayed because some of them didn’t take their self-care as seriously. They thought, ‘Well, I’ve got God working on it, so I don’t have to follow my medical protocols as much.’ Their faith was so strong that, in some cases, they didn’t take care of themselves. I thought that was a very interesting way of seeing things.

[04:50] Tod Perry: So, I am excited about the Nei-yeh – and I don’t know how to properly pronounce this, and George is very good with the Chinese pronunciation.

[05:00] George Thompson: [Brief pronunciation/terminology clarification; partially unclear.]

What is the Nei-Yeh or “Original Tao”?

[05:10] Tod Perry: So there’s a book by a gentleman by the name of Harold Roth called Original Tao, and it’s based on the Nei-yeh, which is seen as a precursor to Lao Tzu’s Tao Te Ching by possibly 50 to 100 years. So this was among the original, kind of primordial Taoist ideas, which is kind of fun – the primordial soup of the whole thing. The book is about inward training, and the Nei-yeh has 26 chapters. What I find interesting is that it’s not as nuanced as the Tao Te Ching, and it’s not as nuanced as Chuang Tzu, with all the jokes and stories. It’s more direct.

[06:10] Tod Perry: One of the basic tenets running through it is the idea that when the mind is calm and at peace, your external world will mirror your internal world. It’s the basic idea that your focus determines your reality. It does give you a bit of a locus of control: if you have some control over your brain, over your mind, that can give you some control over your experience – in no way control over all external circumstances, obviously. It’s something Taoism touches on quite a bit. George, what do you think?

[07:00] George Thompson: What strikes me is that this is such a distillation of a foundation that later comes through Taoism itself. The Tao Te Ching has these 81 short chapters, and you can feel this collective wisdom that has resonated through generations. Different thinkers and teachers are synthesizing and distilling ideas that keep resurfacing through the centuries.

[07:45] George Thompson: It makes me think of Viktor Frankl and the idea of responsibility as our ability to choose our response. There’s the classic Frankl line: between stimulus and response there is a space. That space is where we have freedom and power. And that idea of space is crucial to practice.

[08:20] Tod Perry: I love that quote by Frankl. That’s amazing. And I’ve found meditation is the quickest way to increase that response area. Maybe when I was ten years old – or just less developed – that space was very small. I think there are a lot of people in this world who are operating with almost no latency between what happens and how their body reacts.

[08:50] George Thompson: Responsibility normally sounds like taking the world on your shoulders, but I love thinking about it as response-ability: the ability to choose your response. Because, to use Frankl’s quote, between stimulus and response there is this space, and in that space is your freedom and your power. The word ‘space’ is crucial. I still get reactive, but practice makes it possible to notice when I’m lost and come back. There’s more spaciousness. You can ask: ‘Where am I right now? Do I need to be in this reaction?’ That capacity is an incredible development because then you can respond to the world instead of simply reacting.

[09:50] Tod Perry: That’s where all the problems happen. So, back to Original Tao here. I pulled out a few passages. Some of them are embedded within chapters, so we won’t read the whole chapter. My belief is that the main point is: when you perfect the mind, the world outside of you will become more ordered as well – or as close as it can get. Nothing will ever be perfect. There will be ups and downs. But maybe there will be less unnecessary movement.

[10:30] Tod Perry: Here it says in Chapter 3: ‘The true condition of the mind is that it finds calmness beneficial and, by it, attains repose. Do not disturb it, do not disrupt it, and harmony will naturally develop.’ So again, repose – that space we’re talking about. Don’t disrupt it, and harmony will naturally develop.

[10:50] Tod Perry: And in Chapter 5 it says, ‘Cultivate your mind, make your thoughts tranquil, and the Way can thereby be attained.’ Again, it starts in the brain.

[11:10] Tod Perry: Chapter 10: ‘With a well-ordered mind within you, well-ordered words issue forth from your mouth, and well-ordered tasks are imposed upon others. Then all under heaven will be well-ordered.’ Again, right into this point where the ordering in the mind is what you see out in the world.

[11:27] Tod Perry: And it almost makes me think that, in your immediate life – not necessarily the world at large, but your circle and your immediate experience – if things are constantly chaotic and unpredictable and just popping off for no reason, maybe some of that can be a reflection of the mind.

How does Taoism distinguish reality from projection?

[12:00] George Thompson: I like this one because it gets into the power of the mind to create our reality, and secondly the limits of thinking that it literally creates every external circumstance. Taoism talks about how we project onto reality. Think about a projector: if you put a red lens over it, the whole image looks red. Put a blue lens over it, the whole image looks blue.

[12:40] George Thompson: So, for example, if I believe human nature is inherently selfish and therefore it’s a dog-eat-dog world, I will interpret every piece of information through that lens: humans are selfish. Everything looks red. But if I believe humans are generally good – not perfect, but generally good – that’s the lens I project through, so I interact with the very same facts differently. Our projections condition how the world outside of us feels, through our own history and experience.

[13:30] Tod Perry: And that goes exactly with this line: ‘When you have no delusions within you, externally there will be no disasters.’ But you have to get down to that truth, and that’s the hardest part. How do we know what’s true? It’s not easy. We can look at empirical evidence. We can understand more about psychology. We can try to see things with clarity and without desire, because desire can get in our way.

[14:00] Tod Perry: Some people have a desire to see the world as dog-eat-dog and full of hate, and that can excuse their own behavior in the world. Or you can choose to see that, yes, people have harmful elements in them, but most of the time people are good. That affects the way you walk through the world, and it gives you more responsibility toward the world when you see people as having goodness.

[14:34] Tod Perry: I always look at the debate around homelessness, especially living in California, where you see a lot of it. One person sees someone who’s homeless and says, ‘That person is lazy. They don’t work hard, so they don’t deserve my help.’ Another person says, ‘That person suffered some misfortune,’ or tries to understand them, and therefore feels that person deserves help. The answer can vary from person to person, of course. But often there are terrible experiences, trauma, mental illness, or other circumstances involved. Having the automatic idea that ‘that person is lazy’ frees you from feeling any responsibility toward that person.

[15:30] George Thompson: That’s a nice example. Projection is what human consciousness does. We have experience, and in order to simplify the world we project onto this infinite mystery using the experiences that we’ve had. A story like ‘people are lazy’ can become a strategy that protects me in some way. It’s a story that organizes reality for my consciousness. The practice is to notice: this story is not reality itself.

[16:16] George Thompson: And that leads to the beautiful question: how can we know what the truth is?

[16:28] Tod Perry: We were talking recently about the Crusades. The Christians thought they were being told by the Pope that they were doing the right thing, and then you’ve got the other side…

[16:40] George Thompson: Exactly. One side can feel, ‘I’m doing good,’ while the people on the other side can feel, ‘We’re protecting our land against foreign invaders.’ Both can feel like they’re in possession of the truth. So often people say, ‘I’m right. This is the truth.’ The question for me is: how can we see clearly? How can we not be fooled by an illusion or a delusion we’ve created for ourselves? For me, part of that is really coming into the body.

[17:20] George Thompson: But even that isn’t foolproof. You can imagine a crusader feeling conviction in his body and saying, ‘This feels true.’ Projection is going to happen. Delusion is going to happen. So the body is information, but it isn’t an infallible truth detector.

[17:50] Tod Perry: If the body is telling you something is true, do you get a sense of ease? And if something isn’t true, do you feel constricted? But, as you’re saying, the body can be wrong too.

[18:10] George Thompson: Exactly. The body can give false signals, just as the mind can, because the signal itself can be conditioned by projection. It’s about integrating these things – noticing what’s happening in my experience, with a level of presence. I can say, ‘This feels true,’ but that’s not the same as claiming absolute certainty.

[18:40] Tod Perry: And I think there’s sensitivity to identity too. Am I coming to this understanding based on an identity I have about myself? A political identity? A religious identity? A socioeconomic identity? These are different ideas and labels that the external world puts on us, or that we put on ourselves, and they greatly affect our projections.

[19:08] Tod Perry: They interfere all the time. Am I trying to think of this through the lens of some identity I’ve placed on myself, or is this the objective truth? Taoism is always about shedding those identities and coming into the idea that you’re an evolving, changing person. A rigid identity can possibly be a recipe for disaster. And truth isn’t simply what makes us feel good or what affirms us.

[19:50] George Thompson: Exactly. Truth can also feel bad. I’m an evolving organism; everything’s changing. Even the sense of a fixed self is a story. We can make that story closer and closer to the underlying reality, but it’s still a story.

[20:10] Tod Perry: There’s a good one toward the end of the Nei-yeh – Chapter 25 in this edition – that says: ‘When the mind can hold on to tranquility, the Way will become naturally stabilized. For people who have attained the Way, it permeates their pores and saturates their hair.’ For me, my pores, because I don’t really have much hair.

[20:40] Tod Perry: I think that’s a beautiful thing. It’s a reminder to all of us to affect our brains in a healthy way. I do it through meditation. That’s one way. Obviously if we eat healthy and exercise, all these things help too. George, are there any other types of behaviors one can do to get their mind right in order to respond to the world with more response-ability?

[21:20] George Thompson: One of my routes of healing is observation and investigation. Observation is presence. It’s being with my own experience. We’re talking about delusion and the constructs of the mind; observation helps us get closer to reality because you can notice what’s here without immediately doing anything with it.

[21:50] George Thompson: That alone can be life-changing. Observation is the first part. Then there’s investigation: explore what’s beneath these recurring delusions or stories. Why does this keep coming through again and again? What need is underneath it? Maybe the story is, ‘I need love,’ or, ‘I need to take action,’ or, ‘I need money in order to do this.’ You can investigate the attachment beneath the thought.

[22:38] George Thompson: And then you can come back to surrender and trust – allowing the Tao, loosening the attachment, returning to flow. Observation and investigation are two really useful tools.

What does Chuang Tzu say about the need to win?

[23:10] Tod Perry: All right, let’s move over to a little of the Chuang Tzu. We’ve really been focusing in this version of the show on Lao Tzu, so this is another good passage I found. It’s on page 107 of the Merton version. I understand the Merton version may not be the most literal translation ever, but it’s bite-size for what we do here, so we like it. And that’s all that matters, right? I haven’t gotten any emails about it, so that’s good.

[23:50] Tod Perry: This is called ‘The Need to Win.’ ‘When an archer is shooting for nothing, he has all his skill. If he shoots for a brass buckle, he is already nervous. If he shoots for a prize of gold, he goes blind or sees two targets – he is out of his mind! His skill has not changed. But the prize divides him. He cares. He thinks more of winning than of shooting – and the need to win drains him of power.’

[24:30] Tod Perry: That’s the whole bit. When you think the game is on the line and you’re playing basketball and you’ve got one minute left and you’re taking your shot, that’s way more nerve-racking than the one you take in the first quarter. Or you’re standing over a putt and maybe my buddy and I have got a beer on the line – I’ve got to buy the beer or he’s going to buy me a beer. There’s a big box on the line there.

[24:58] Tod Perry: You get more nervous when you’re thinking about winning. Or if money is on the line for work, you might be more self-conscious instead of being your full self in that moment because you’re thinking about the outcome. Or even worse, you’re thinking about losing. There are studies showing that the pain of losing tends to feel worse than the good feeling that comes with winning. It says a lot about human nature.

[25:36] Tod Perry: So, when we’re under stress, is there a way to think about it like nothing is on the line? Is that the way we do it, George?

[25:50] George Thompson: I love how funny Chuang Tzu is here: he goes blind, he sees two targets, he’s out of his mind. It’s funny body language for what pressure does. When you’re present, you can just shoot. The moment you’re thinking about everything outside the act itself, pressure builds.

[26:18] George Thompson: Another example is love. There’s this energy of, ‘Is she the one?’ Suddenly there’s all this pressure. Instead of, ‘This is a fun conversation,’ the story around the bigness of the thing can become the block.

[26:48] George Thompson: I love to share an exercise at retreats and in teaching where we freestyle rap together. There are basically no rules: you don’t have to rhyme, and if you mess up, just keep going. Take the pressure off. Don’t limit yourself with all your own beliefs and constructions. Just come back to presence and see what can emerge from presence.

[27:30] Tod Perry: I like that. And going back to the archer thing and putting it into romantic relationships: there’s nothing worse than a person who has desperation on them, who is really trying to impress somebody. It’s always the person who’s most laid-back who is the most attractive.

[27:58] Tod Perry: I mean, Natalie Portman could come running at me in a desperate way and I’d go, ‘Whoa, hold back.’ [Laughs.] That’s probably not true. But there’s a lesson in there. The person who’s shooting for money, shooting for victory, shooting for all these things – that competitiveness can hold you back.

[28:25] Tod Perry: That’s something to think about, especially if you’re in a situation where you want to cooperate. If it’s a basketball game, you want to play hard. If the environment rewards competition, great. But if it’s an environment where competitiveness actually hinders you, that’s different.

[29:00] George Thompson: The archer is a great image for the whole cultivation of a skill. There’s the object, the goal, the prize – and then there’s the actual skill. The external construction can get in the way. That can happen with any skill, like playing a musical instrument. Suddenly I’m thinking, ‘Am I good enough?’ instead of simply playing.

[29:28] George Thompson: And it comes back to what we were talking about: what’s within reflects without. Where the intention goes, the energy follows. It always comes back to presence – observing what’s in my mind. Why do I need to do that? Why am I so tight? Can I soften? Take a breath. Come back to the present.

[30:00] Tod Perry: Fantastic. George, give me your final thoughts for the people on their way this week – or month, depending on when we decide to put this one out.

[30:10] George Thompson: I guess with what we’ve been talking about – observation and presence – just ask: where am I? Where am I in my body? Where am I in my mind? What stories am I in? That’s one way to see more clearly.

[30:28] George Thompson: There’s one form of clarity which is knowledge, and there’s another form of clarity which is seeing clearly that I don’t know. Seeing clearly the mystery. Being comfortable in not knowing can be a clarifying release. We surrender into the unknown.

[30:48] George Thompson: One of the big Taoist themes, and part of this collective wisdom, is a sense of trust in the mystery. Notice when you’re contracted and stuck in your mind, and use these skills to return to balance – to find that clarifying release by embracing the mystery.

[31:20] Tod Perry: Beautiful. I’ve been trying to do this. There’s the Taoist idea of waiting for the muddy waters to clear before you make a decision. And there’s also this idea that I don’t know everything.

[31:31] Tod Perry: I was in a Mexican restaurant, sitting at the bar a couple of weeks ago, and there was a gentleman next to me who was quite intoxicated. We had those wildfires in California about a year ago, really terrible, and the guy asks me, ‘Who do you think was responsible? Was it the mayor? Was it the governor? Was it this person?’ And I said, ‘I have no idea. I’m not a fire expert in any way. I have zero answer for you.’

[32:00] Tod Perry: And I felt so good. There was no argument. It was just: I don’t know. I don’t know anything about fire. So come at me with questions about fire and water – maybe. Maybe not.

[32:18] Tod Perry: Everybody, go to Patreon.com/whatsthistaoallabout and subscribe. You get the episodes before everybody else, sometimes by up to six weeks. And we also have episodes of Tao of Tod, which is me talking for about 12 minutes about different Taoist ideas, and we have episodes of The Ten Thousand Things, where Dr. Totton and I discuss topics outside of Taoism. It’s a beautiful thing. So go to Patreon.com/whatsthistaoallabout, jump on, support us. It does take a couple bucks to keep the show on the road.

[33:00] George Thompson: Thank you very much. [Closing words partially obscured by theme music.]

Tod and George examine the works of Derek Lin and Chuang Tzu to discuss how to live with less contention and greater harmony. George also shares the power of the “sacred” pause, and Tod explains why balancing your internal checkbook can help you find peace.

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Pick up a copy of Dr.Sijo: The Taoist Monk in Modern Clothing by Jeremy Newman

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Pick up a copy of Dr.Sijo: The Taoist Monk in Modern Clothing by Jeremy Newman

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GoFundMe: Care for Dr. Carl Totton in His Final Days

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GoFundMe: Care for Dr. Carl Totton in His Final Days

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Buy “Daily Tao: 365 Meditations on the Tao Te Ching” at Amazon.

William Martin’s website

GoFundMe: Care for Dr. Carl Totton in His Final Days

Tod and George reflect on Derek Lin’s insights about the unnecessary baggage we carry through life. They also discuss Thomas Merton’s translation of Chuang-Tzu’s “Kingly Man,” and George shares practical tips on how we can all let go of our excess baggage.

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Watch George Thompson’s new film, “The Subtle Art of Losing Yourself” on YouTube.

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GoFundMe: Care for Dr. Carl Totton in His Final Days

GoFundMe: Care for Dr. Carl Totton in His Final Days

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This special episode is a compilation of clips from the show where Dr. Carl Totton and Tod Perry discuss the basics of Taoism. In “Taoism” they discuss the big question, “What is Tao?” and dive into the concepts of Wu-Wei, Te, and Pu. They also discuss practices such as meditation and qigong and examine one of Taoism’s greatest minds, Chuang-Tzu.

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You can purchase his book here.

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The “Tao of Tod” is just that. Tod hanging out and discussing his thoughts on the Tao in an intimate, unfiltered way.

These shows are available exclusively at Patreon for $5.99 a month.

Click here to start listening to “Ten Thousand Things” now, exclusively at Patreon.com >>>

You can buy her new book “Rainbow of Tao” on her website.

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Right now, there are two episodes of “Ten Thousand Things” available on “Escape from Freedom” and a bonus episode with Jane English.

“Ten Thousand Things” is available exclusively on Patreon for $5.99 a month at Patreon.com/whatsthistaoallabout

Right click to download Dr. Totton’s tapping technique >>

Right click to download a .doc of Dr. Totton’s”10-Day Gong.” >>

Right click to download The Mind, Cleaning, Karma, and Life.

Right click to download a .doc of Dr. Totton’s”10-Day Gong.” >>

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The Immortals Weekend is coming May 21 -22, 2016!

Learn more here >>

On show 13, the ever-studious Tod Perry presents a book report on the first half of the seminal Taoist text Inner Chapters by Chuang Tsu. Here, we uncover the mystery of Tzu’s famous butterfly dream and discuss his timeless humor, insightful parables, and importance in the Taoist cannon.

Subscribe to What’s This Tao All About? on iTunes >>

Hear Dr. Totton’s recent appearance on the “Inspire Me Show.”

Episode Transcript

Okay everybody, welcome back to What’s This Tao About? My name is Tod Perry and I’m here with Sijo, Dr. Carl Totton. It’s good to see you, Dr. Carl.

[Carl Totton]

Always great to see you. Gong hei fat choy. Happy New Year.

[Tod Perry]

Yes, yes. What are the exact dates on the Chinese New Year? February 8th.

Okay.

[Carl Totton]

Monday, February 8th. So in about a week or so.

[Tod Perry]

Yes.

[Carl Totton]

Okay. We’ll be celebrating the fabulous Year of the Monkey.

[Tod Perry]

Now, what are the special properties of the Year of the Monkey?

[Carl Totton]

Well, you know how monkeys are.

[Tod Perry]

Yes.

[Carl Totton]

They’re very mischievous and very active. And so this should be a very active year. We should all get a lot done.

[Tod Perry]

Oh, good.

[Carl Totton]

But we need to be centered so we don’t go off half-cocked.

[Tod Perry]

Go half-cocked in the Year of the Monkey. All right, sorry. I’m just getting our volume levels right.

So it’s been some busy times for you, Dr. Carl. I guess you recently – oh, before we get into that, today we’re going to talk a little bit about – we’re going to talk about Chuang Tzu. And let’s see.

In his book – I wrote on my notes five times Inner Visions, the Stevie Wonder album title, but it’s the inner chapters.

[Carl Totton]

Inner chapters, yes. The inner chapters of Chuong Tzu.

[Tod Perry]

And we’re going to go over a chapter of the Tao Te Ching. But before we get into that, Dr. Carl Totton, you released – you’re the co-author of a book recently that came out that there’s a link to on our website that you can – Excellent.

[Carl Totton]

Yes, I and a couple of other internal martial artists, you know, practitioners of Tai Chi and other types of arts, we felt that we had something to contribute to the world about how to deal with stress.

[Tod Perry]

All right.

[Carl Totton]

Because a lot of our martial art practice and our breathing and Qi Gong and meditative practices are all about how to get the level of stress keyed down enough so that we don’t go crazy and we treat our bodies well because stress can be a killer. Oh, yeah. As you know.

And also if you’re really under a high degree of stress, you don’t think very well. You know, the higher cortical functions of your brain are literally cut off and instead you stay down in your reactive brain, your rat brain, your reptilian brain, where you’re just in that fight or flight reaction or freeze. And you don’t think terribly well under that circumstance unless, of course, you’re running from a tiger or something.

Then that’s appropriate.

[Tod Perry]

Then you don’t want that part of the brain activated, right? You don’t want the part of you that’s like, well, how’s the tiger feeling?

[Carl Totton]

You know, you just want to get the hell out of there, right? Yeah, you want to fight or flight. But in your daily life, fleeing and fighting is probably not appropriate most of the time.

But yet we’re being innovated to do that. We don’t think that clearly and we tend to make poor decisions. Have you looked at the world lately?

You see a lot of poor decisions being made.

[Tod Perry]

Yeah.

[Carl Totton]

We’d like to move beyond that. And so our book, the book on internal stress release, has a lot of activities, exercises, meditations, breathing practices that allow any person to easily learn how to control all of that. So that’s what the book is all about.

[Tod Perry]

All right, just for a little bit of tangible advice right here. Let’s say I’m in my car. I’m on the 405 freeway.

I’m losing my mind. I’m stuck in traffic. I’m late.

What’s a practical piece of advice that you might be able to grab from the book?

[Carl Totton]

Well, a lot, of course, is pre-work. If you have worked on yourself previously and you know that this too shall pass, if I wind up five minutes later there than I should be, in the big scheme of time, over my lifetime, will this really make any difference? No.

See, it’s only when that grasping mind thinks, oh, I got to do this, I got to do this, I got to do that.

[Tod Perry]

Or it’s all over. Yeah. It’s done.

[Carl Totton]

Yeah. See, so a lot of it is philosophical. So if you philosophically understand that, like the tortoise, you’ll get there, slow and sure, wins the race, then you take a lot of the pressure off of you psychologically in the beginning.

[Tod Perry]

Yeah.

[Carl Totton]

And, of course, in the meantime, you can take a few deep breaths and just watch all that tension flowing out of your mouth, symbolically, every time that you exhale.

[Tod Perry]

Yeah.

[Carl Totton]

And then relax your shoulders. You’ll probably notice your shoulders and hands and arms and body stiffening up. And you just imagine like a wave of relaxation going through your body from head to toe and all that anxiety, just let it go.

[Tod Perry]

And now where can people get this book?

[Carl Totton]

Online, Amazon. Amazon.com. The book on internal stress release.

Great. Amazon.

[Tod Perry]

And also, you recently were on KPFK, right?

[Carl Totton]

Yes.

[Tod Perry]

90.7, it’s a big Pacifica radio. It’s a big public radio station here in Los Angeles.

[Carl Totton]

Pacifica Radio Network. Yes. I was interviewed a few weeks ago.

And last week, the first segment played, and it was great. They talked about my life. We talked about this show, the podcast.

Yes. We talked about Tai Chi and yin and yang and meditation and all kind of fun things. And the interview, in fact, was so long, they actually divided it into two.

And I think on February 5th, next week, the second half will be played.

[Tod Perry]

Cool. And then we’ll have a link up to that on the website. I’ll have right here on the show description, I’ll put a link so people can hear the podcast of that.

[Carl Totton]

It was on the Inspire Me show. Hosted by Layla Ashley.

[Tod Perry]

Okay.

[Carl Totton]

I’ve heard her before.

[Tod Perry]

Oh, she’s great.

[Carl Totton]

She actually was one of my Tai Chi students.

[Tod Perry]

Oh, okay. That’s how you got to know her.

[Carl Totton]

And so you can just go to KPFK online there and type in Inspire Me, and it pops right up. And you can listen to it from anywhere in the world, anytime.

[Tod Perry]

Perfect. So now moving on here, we’ve got the inner chapters of Chuang Tzu. Am I saying that right?

[Carl Totton]

Yeah. All right. Unless you’re Chinese, you probably can’t see it right anyway.

I know.

[Tod Perry]

Who was the Taoist philosopher, Chuang Tzu?

Yeah, yeah. So I guess I had never read this before, and it’s I guess what people would call kind of a companion piece to the Dao De Jing. Exactly.

By a gentleman named Chuang Tzu, and it was written, and I guess about what, 475 around then, B.C. B.C. Fourth century B.C. Yep. Yeah. And it’s basically, it’s an interesting book, because where the Dao De Jing is kind of like axioms or kind of poetry, Chuang Tzu is more, it’s like prose.

Yes. And there’s different styles of prose, where some of it is kind of allegorical, some of it is just kind of almost like stories of animals, and some things are kind of little historical takes on things.

[Carl Totton]

Yes.

[Tod Perry]

And what I really enjoyed about it, it’s kind of, Lao Tzu is pointing at humorous things in the Dao De Jing, but Chuang Tzu is almost like the Mark Twain of Daoism. Like there’s a lot of humor in it, and I like that. I got halfway through it, and I kind of highlighted the things that I found remarkable or interesting in the book, and do you have any background on Chuang Tzu, Dr. Carl, that people should know before getting to this?

[Carl Totton]

Well, like you said, he was a later kind of scholar of the Dao, and I think his works formed kind of a balance to some of the more Confucian ways of perceiving daily life. Because like you said, he kind of had his tongue in his cheek a lot of the times, and yet he was very profound and wise, and wanted to move us beyond form and being rigidly held to form as a way of existing in daily life and in structuring relationships. And what he was probably most famous for are these so-called seven inner chapters.

Because there was more written at that period of time, but scholars say that the only thing we can really be sure that he himself wrote were just these seven so-called inner chapters. The rest of me, I don’t know how much you know about Chinese scholarship, but it’s strange.

[Tod Perry]

It’s very strange. It’s not as rigidly documented as the Western.

[Carl Totton]

No, because sometimes somebody will write something really profound, but out of humility will say, oh, I didn’t write this. Buddha wrote this. Lao Tzu wrote this.

ChuangTzu wrote this. Not little old me. And then other times people will take things written by somebody else and put their own name on it.

What is Chuang Tzu’s ‘Butterfly Dream’?

So you have to talk about yin and yang. But the most famous part of Chuang Tzu is his butterfly dream. I love the butterfly dream, where he said this.

Once upon a time I, Chuang Tzu, dreamt I was a butterfly, fluttering hither and thither to all intents and purposes a butterfly. I was conscious only of my happiness as a butterfly, unaware I was Chuang Tzu. Suddenly, soon, I awakened, and there I was, verifiably myself again.

Now, I do not know whether I was then a man dreaming I was a butterfly or whether I am now a butterfly dreaming I am a man. Between a man and a butterfly, there is necessarily a distinction. The transition is called the transformation of material things.

[Tod Perry]

That’s awesome.

[Carl Totton]

So, what is existence? Is it what we perceive? Is how we are perceiving things accurate?

Or is it more fantasy? Is it wishful thinking? Is it projection?

[Tod Perry]

Is it maya?

[Carl Totton]

Is it illusion? Is it a dream? Now, on the other hand, out of imagination and out of dreams have emerged everything that we have ever created.

And so, I think here in the West, I’ve said this before, imagination gets a bad rap. And I think the most important thing that we as human beings have is our creative imagination because that allows us to dream and to vision things that have not been but could be. Things that are actually in the process of becoming.

It’s the potential. It’s the potential. And if you don’t have that, then what do you have left?

Karma. You just keep repeating the old patterns that you’ve been doing forever and ever and ever.

[Tod Perry]

So, this imagination is the fertile ground in which many of it, if you apply the day, the virtue in action, brings it into being. Exactly. And lots of these things, even like an abstract dream or something that touches you in these weird forms of conscious, change our everyday reality because then you have this weird idea that hits you and you meld it with something else, the creative alchemy.

And then suddenly now you have something in the world. But what began as almost a misfiring of brain synapses becomes present in the world one day. I was in my writer’s group.

I do a writer’s group every other week with a bunch of local writers. And one guy had this whole story. And the story was good.

It didn’t quite add up and it was a little kind of wonky or off. And I knew this writer is a very precise writer, so I was wondering why. And then he just told me this was a dream I had.

And the whole thing. And he just put it all down. And so it made sense.

But there’s that weird dream sense where there’s a feeling, a tone of something that makes sense or makes something climax or makes something feel whole even though literally they’re not. Like the end of 2001, a space odyssey, isn’t really a logical ending. But it’s a satisfying, something deep inside us is projected on the screen right there.

We all understand that putting into words like the Tao, we don’t quite have.

[Carl Totton]

Yeah, we know. What we just experienced was deep. And literally it is deep because it’s very, very layered.

It’s very measured. It’s very nuanced. Just like life.

Now, many people, of course, see things more black and white, this and that. They’re polarized and don’t see the subtleties, which of course leads to all sorts of problems because then my reality is going to clash with your reality if they’re contrasted that much. But if we are able to see the layers and experience that everybody, no matter how they seem, is breathing the same air, they have the same blood moving through their veins, everybody basically wants to be accepted and loved and cared for and to experience happiness and pleasure, we’re much more alike than we are different.

And so I think that understanding these messages from reverie, from dreams, from fantasy. One of my shaman teachers says this, the shamans dream their life into existence. The shaman dreams life into existence.

And so they’re always looking at potential and possibility and at your highest possible evolution. And it’s out there somewhere in space. It’s out there because in the universe of unlimited possibilities, everything is out there.

And we often will approach that first in the dream state. That’s why dreaming and keeping a dream journal can be so important to spiritual growth and psychological stability and well-being.

[Tod Perry]

You know, it’s interesting. You ever have a dream about someone in your workplace or someone you know or whatever, and then the next day you see that person and even though this came from a dream, your perception of them is different.

[Carl Totton]

Yes.

[Tod Perry]

You just dreamed in this new perception of this person, which will then change your interactions.

[Carl Totton]

Yes, because remember that our conscious attention, our conscious mind is only a teeny small part of consciousness. The rest of it is in the subconscious or the unconscious or the collective unconscious even. And these states are approachable most directly through the dream and through meditation in states of reverie.

And that’s why people for thousands of years have done that because they recognized what you just said, that our life and our interactions are enriched if we are in touch with this other reality, what Carlos Castaneda and Don Juan called a separate reality, the title of his second book.

[Tod Perry]

Yes, I read that quite some time ago. Yes. Also I was thinking, I think it was John Cleese, the comedian, was saying that creativity isn’t necessarily, the creativity is learning how, it’s like a process.

And as part of that process, it’s opening yourself up to that and not blocking yourself off and going off to this area. Like there was a movie Finding Neverland where Johnny Depp played J.M. Barrie and he’s talking to Kate Winslet and she says, you have this place you can go to in your mind where these ideas come and this whole thing is. And I think the creative mind is one that embraces that and sees it and tries to nurture it, whereas maybe somebody who isn’t is somebody that doesn’t see its value or doesn’t know it’s there, but it’s a latent thing in everybody.

[Carl Totton]

Yes.

[Tod Perry]

And one more thought on the dream thing, and as the dreams, this kind of thing can shape our reality and it comes in unconsciously and it comes in unchoosingly, these ideas come in, then they’re manifest. I guess when it comes to evolution, one of the things that affect genetic mutation are like cosmic rays, right? So you have some kind of cosmic radiation that comes out from the sun or something and that has an effect on the genetics of things.

It can actually change genetics. And so it’s this natural thing that hits the earth that changes something genetically and now the whole genome of the universe changes and now new things can arise in the same way that dreams can affect this reality as well.

[Carl Totton]

Much of reality we have no conscious awareness of because it’s too subtle. How many people can feel the effect of cosmic rays on them right now? Not really.

Or gravity. You can feel the weight pulling you down, but it’s affecting us on many, many, many other levels too we’re completely unaware of. Not to mention all the electromagnetic things in the air and God knows what else.

[Tod Perry]

And chemtrails. I got my tinfoil hat on now.

[Carl Totton]

And natural gas, right? Oh, jeez. Porter Ranch.

So we are being affected on so many levels. In fact, let me tell you something. It’s been estimated that every second in our subconscious over 11 million bits of information pass through your subconscious every second.

[Tod Perry]

Most of them are about football. But the rest are about the doubt. No, I’m kidding.

[Carl Totton]

And so we’re clueless. We’re clueless. We just think we know who we are, what we’re doing, and as I’ve mentioned before, not one person can tell you what their next thought is going to be.

[Tod Perry]

No.

[Carl Totton]

So how does that affect free will? If we don’t know what’s going on, if we’re clueless, we don’t know what our own mind, particularly at the unconscious and subconscious and collective unconscious levels, are dealing with and processing and assimilating, we have to put an effort towards remaining fully aware and conscious. Hence, meditation.

Hence, lucid dreaming. Hence, states of reverie. Hence, being mindful, watching the self.

All of these are tools to do what the Taoist, one of the Taoist immortals, the one who’s on my wall up here, Lu Tung Pin, he was famous for saying, you have to turn the light around. You have to turn the light of awareness around. And without judgment, just notice what’s going on.

Because until you know what’s going on, you don’t know. And if you don’t know, you’re acting in an unconscious manner, which means you are now a slave of karma again and are doomed to repeat it forever. And that’s a long time.

Chuang Tzu’s sense of humor

[Tod Perry]

That’s TaoistInstitute.com Ah, let’s see here. I have another thing. There’s a little anecdote I really liked on page 17 I have here, where I was really appreciating the Chuang Tzu’s humor.

Because for my readings of different spiritual things, I don’t find humor in much of it. And I find that one of the most beautiful things about Taoism and the way it’s written and the way it’s portrayed is the humor in it and the irony. I mean, humor and irony, it’s a metaphor for the greater big picture.

It’s pointing towards things we can’t get to in words. It’s the Tao that cannot be told. But humor can paint the picture.

[Carl Totton]

That’s why comedians can’t get away with saying anything that ordinarily is straight up, they’d shoot you.

[Tod Perry]

Well, nowadays you can’t.

[Carl Totton]

Look at South Park.

[Tod Perry]

Oh, yeah. The sad thing is that now people are getting so politically correct about everything that they’re taking comedy and in that safe space that is a comedy club or whatever where we work out these ideas, we work out this reverie, we work out these kind of outside, I don’t know, what do you call it, the outside, off the beaten path kind of ideas and it’s almost a laboratory for those ideas. But then somebody tweets out and everybody beats the comedian up and you’re kind of killing that.

[Carl Totton]

I know.

[Tod Perry]

In a weird way. It’s a weird thing where you want to build the most tolerant society ever and in a way of people trying to be so tolerant, they become intolerant, right? It’s a weird thing to kind of figure out the balance.

[Carl Totton]

That’s why when I teach classes on diversity, there’s always this talk about becoming tolerant and we have museums of tolerance and all kinds of things. Do you really want to just be tolerated? Yeah.

Or would you rather be accepted, loved, appreciated for the newness that you personally are adding to the mix? Right. There’s never been another person on this earth like you.

Right. You’re unique. Right.

Right? And so it’s all a big stew, right? But you’re adding your unique ingredients to the stew and we need to appreciate that.

Can you imagine how bland it would be if you had to eat the same food every day?

[Tod Perry]

Sort of the museum of appreciation.

[Carl Totton]

Right.

[Tod Perry]

Maybe tolerance is the first step for some people, right?

[Carl Totton]

Yeah.

[Tod Perry]

That’s true. After the text I got from my sister today. We’ll get into that later.

So page 17. The funny thing is these chapters in my version, they’re not labeled. There’s some stuff in Chinese which I assume is the labeling.

Huizu said, I have a big allianthus tree. Its trunk is so gnarled and full of nuts it is impossible to measure accurately. Its branches are too twisted and crooked for anyone to measure with a compass and square.

It stands at the side of the road but no carpenter would give it a second glance. Now your words are as big and useless that no one wants to hear what you have to say. The words are just as big and useless as this tree that’s knotted and gnarled.

I love the visual. A tree like that is kind of a metaphor for a man’s thinking. I always think that the interior of your car probably looks a lot like your mind.

If you have a big messy car that’s everywhere, I’m sure your thinking is the same.

[Carl Totton]

That’s why cleaning is such an important tool. I for one love big gnarled trees. What looks more interesting than something which has grown right out of nature into this unusual, beautiful, curved, carved, twisting configuration.

It catches your attention every time. Whereas just a regular tree, you’ll walk right by it and not even know it’s there. It’s just part of the landscape.

Again, that goes back to our uniqueness. If you’re gnarled and curved in a way that catches my attention, remember what I said earlier that Taoists are curious and that curiosity leads to then knowing which leads to understanding and then appreciation and embrace. It’s a metaphor for how we’re holding reality and things that capture our attention in reality.

[Tod Perry]

The funny thing is the guy who says this is talking to Chuang Tzu. Then in the end, he jokingly says, no one will try to cut it down. Nothing can harm it because it has no use.

Yes. The tree will live to fight again. That’s right.

[Carl Totton]

As will Chuang Tzu. You can tell he’s a chip off the old Lao Tzu block.

[Tod Perry]

Let’s see here. What else? Some other stuff I really like here.

There’s page 32 in my book. There’s a thing on distinctions.

[Carl Totton]

Ah, distinctions.

[Tod Perry]

When right and wrong appeared, Tao declined. Chao Wen played the lute, Xie Kuang kept time with the baton, and Hui Su leaned on a stump and debated. Each of these three masters was nearly perfect in his own art.

Their names will be remembered forever. And then the last thing is, not making distinctions but dwelling on which is unchanging is called clear vision. So we’re talking again the black and white mind that makes distinctions, that’s not open to the, that sees, as Alan Watts says, that sees the world in a prickly fashion.

Ah, I forget what the other one is. I always forget these things. You see, there’s the prickly and then there’s the wavy.

And the wavy is the Tao, and the prickly is the other. Yes.

[Carl Totton]

And again, it kind of alludes towards some of the distinctions, speaking of distinctions, between a more Confucian way of apprehending reality and a more Taoist or neo-Taoist way. And remember Confucius met Lao Tzu, and that day he was struck by his appearance and his words and his presence and his being, and he told his disciples, ha, today I met a dragon.

[Tod Perry]

Right.

[Carl Totton]

I met a dragon.

[Tod Perry]

We also have on page 40, Chuang Tzu talks a little bit about beauty. Mao Chang and Li Qi were considered beautiful by men, but if fish saw them, they would dive to the bottom of the river. If birds saw them, they would fly off.

If deer saw them, they would run away. Of these four, who recognizes real beauty?

[Carl Totton]

Interesting.

[Tod Perry]

I love that. You can look great, but in the entirety of things, what does it really matter? I always say that to myself.

I was like, what odd beings we are. We’ve got these arms, and we’re flopping around and everything, but to us, because it’s us, we’re fine. But I’m sure we look like aliens to my dog.

[Carl Totton]

We all know about the eye of the beholder, and human beings, we’re funny-looking critters. Yeah. Look at your hand.

What? You’ve got five little worms coming out, and they wiggle around and stuff, and you’ve got this fuzzy stuff on top of your head.

[Tod Perry]

Some of us.

[Carl Totton]

Some of us. I won’t even go into our more internal anatomy and how ridiculous that is. Biological life, as efficient as it is in many respects, is very inefficient in other respects.

It has to consume. It has to take in energy. It has to process it, and then it has to excrete it.

Is that the most efficient and effective way for something to exist in the universe? Well, it certainly has developed. It’s obviously meeting the adaptational needs of us as an organism, and all organisms in the universe have to adapt to change.

It has to have balance, homeostasis, and it has to have some way of feeding or nurturing itself. Ours just seems to be relying on food and water every day. It just seems to be kind of cumbersome, which is why the Taoist Adepts, the Taoist Immortals, what’s their diet?

Dew and air. Dew and air. And they ride the clouds with the dragons.

So that’s a metaphor for becoming less attached to these biological realities so that one’s spirit can soar at that dragon level, that level of transcendence and wisdom and evolution.

[Tod Perry]

As Alan Watts said, to some they may just consider us tubes.

[Carl Totton]

Yes. I cannot tell you how many times I have said that we’re just tubes. We take stuff in, we metabolize it, and we send it right back out.

Almost like a flatworm, right?

[Tod Perry]

Yes.

[Carl Totton]

Who do the same things. And we think we’re so advanced.

[Tod Perry]

Oh, right, yeah. Let’s see here. You know what?

We’ve got so much stuff from Chuang Tzu here, I think we’re going to just do Chuang Tzu and we can do our chapter of the next show and stuff.

[Carl Totton]

Okay.

[Tod Perry]

We can push it on. Let’s see here. There’s a real quick line on the infinite.

He says, Forget time, forget distinction. Enjoy the infinite, rest in it. And it’s like there’s a song by the Chemical Brothers and a guy, Noel Gallagher, it’s called Let Forever Be.

And it’s just release yourself in the infinite. Because if you look at things, when you have an atom, you could just keep splitting, right? You’re going to have a nuclear blast, some splitting, but things just keep getting smaller and smaller and they’re still things, right?

[Carl Totton]

Yes.

[Tod Perry]

Things are infinitely huge, like the universe, or infinitely small.

[Carl Totton]

Yes.

[Tod Perry]

And so there’s no real up or down, left, right, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. We are in this kind of infinite space.

[Carl Totton]

Yes.

[Tod Perry]

And there’s such a power in that, that to release oneself to it, to give yourself up to it, sacrifice yourself to this infinite nurturing thing, is beautiful. And to realize that in Chuang Tzu, 400 years B.C. was on this.

[Carl Totton]

As above, so below. And as one of my favorite poets, E.E. Cummings, said, forever was never till now.

[Tod Perry]

Right. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. That’s good.

[Carl Totton]

Right now. This is it. This moment.

But this moment is informed by what’s above and what’s below. What’s at that macrocosmic level, moving towards infinity, and in the other direction, also moving towards the infinitesimally small, the microcosmic level. And we, human beings, right here positioned between Heaven and Earth, are said to represent the fulfillment and the manifestation of those two cosmic forces within infinity, within the infinite nature of reality.

And that’s why we being here right now is so important. Because this is all there is. Right.

This is all there is. All right. Past and future all bisect this moment in space and time, right here, right now.

And waking up to this reality is what this Tao is all about.

Chuang Tzu’s story: Cook Ding Cuts Up an Ox

[Tod Perry]

Nice. I’m going to finish up with this last one. Page 55.

The Cook Ding Cuts Up an Ox. Which is another… This could seriously…

If it wasn’t so bloody, it could be a Disney cartoon. Infantasia or something. This is…

The Cook says, When I first began to cut open oxen, I saw nothing but oxen. After three years of practicing, I no longer saw the ox as a whole. I now work with my spirit, not with my eyes.

My senses stop functioning and my spirit takes over. A good cook changes his knife once a year because he cuts, while a mediocre cook has to change his every month because he hacks. However, when I come to difficulty, I seize up the joint, I look carefully, keep open my eyes on what I’m doing and work slowly.

Well done, said the prince, I guess who was talking to him. From the words of my cook, I have learned the secret of growth.

[Carl Totton]

Yes.

[Tod Perry]

I love it. I love it.

[Carl Totton]

Yeah. That’s why, again, using discernment to see at any given moment what is the most auspicious way to approach our existence, our relationships, our work, our play. If we’re precise, we don’t waste a lot of energy.

If we’re imprecise, if we just hack at it, we make a lot of errors and we create a lot of debris. It’s a big mess and you rub other people the wrong way because you’ve clashed with their perception of reality but if you are precise and more using, again, your powers of discernment, which means you have to slow down and notice and just allow your impressions to come to you rather than trying to force your reality on the external world. When we live out of that perspective, our life is so much easier.

That is the water course way to say it. That’s wu-wei. Right.

Acting without action. Effortless action. That is the way of the now.

[Tod Perry]

To learn more about the show, check us out online at whatsthisdow.com Follow the show on Twitter at Whatsthisdow Follow Tod Perry on Twitter at TodAPerry Now, don’t follow leaders and watch your parking meters. Wow, really?

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Thanks!

In show 12, Dr. Carl and Tod discuss chapter 81 of the Tao Te Ching. They also go in depth on the practice of qigong and discuss other texts in the Taoist cannon besides the Tao Te Ching.

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Episode Transcript

Thank you everybody for listening to What’s this Tao all about? And we’re now on show 12.

And if you look at our website, I think I wrote on there that What’s this Tao all about was going to be a 12-show kind of run, right? And having all the stuff we’ve gotten into, I feel like we haven’t even kind of come close to all of it. So I think we’re going to have to continue doing more.

And keeping this running. Because I, for one, have been having a blast doing this. And it’s been a wonderful learning experience.

It’s one thing, we record the show for other people to sit and listen to, but I think I learn more than anybody just doing it. So it’s wonderful. But on today’s show, we’re going to talk a little bit about texts besides the Tao Te Ching that are a part of the Taoist canon, I guess.

So I’m talking about Qi Gong. Qi Gong, I think is how you say it. We’ve been discussing that, but I don’t think we really hit it square on.

And then we’re going to talk about Chapter 81 of the Tao Te Ching. Here on episode 12 of who knows how many. So Dr. Carl Totton, the question is, we’ve been talking a lot and reading chapters from the Tao Te Ching, but are there other things that are quote-unquote Taoist canon?

Or does everybody accept them as Taoist canon? Is it all quote-unquote gospel?

What texts are in the Taoist canon?

[Carl Totton]

Funny, you should mention the Taoist canon. There actually is a Taoist canon called the Tao Song. Taoist canons.

And there are, I think, over 1,200 volumes in that. And it’s never been completely translated out of the Chinese into English, for example.

[Tod Perry]

So we might be really missing something.

[Carl Totton]

But parts of it have been translated. I think the first scholar that translated it out of the Chinese into something else was a French scholar who wrote a book which is called Taoism and Chinese Religion by Henry Maspero, I think in the 1930s, 1933 or something, 35, something like that. Great book.

I have it next door in my library, actually. And so he translated a few of the works from this Tao Song, this Taoist canon, these thousands, hundreds of volumes of ancient Chinese literature that contains a lot of the original writings about the Tao. So there’s that.

And again, there’s been just a few books in English that talk about parts of that. And some of that is actually very interesting, particularly what it reveals about qigong and meditation and alchemy. Fascinating materials in there.

I think one of the chapters is called something like Nourishing the Spirit and how to do that. Fascinating, very interesting. So there’s all of that.

And then, of course, there’s the I Ching, the Book of Changes.

[Tod Perry]

Now, is that a specifically Taoist text or is that something that Taoists incorporated from elsewhere?

[Carl Totton]

Well, everybody has kind of had a hand in that, I suppose. Supposedly, the first kind of emperor of China, he supposedly saw a tortoise walking and saw these marks on the tortoise’s back. And I guess being an emperor, a son of heaven or whatever, he divined what that meant.

That, oh, that line is a yang line, and the half line, that’s a yin line. If you put the yin and the yang together, that means something. And so he became inspired to write commentaries on this phenomena that he had observed in nature.

And then, of course, over the centuries, many, many, many people have added to that. But it’s been certainly incorporated by the Taoists as one of their fundamental texts, along with the Tao Te Ching. And essentially, it’s been used in divination, for example, because it does contain a full hexagram or six lines, and they consist of yin lines and yang lines, the full line being a yang line.

Yang being, we may have discussed at some point, that yang means things that are more solid, more heavy, more bright, more evident, associated with male or masculinity, with activity, etc. And then it alternates with yin lines, you know, kind of half lines. Softer, more yielding, more feminine, more allowing, more receptive.

And Taoism definitely identifies with the yin, with the more mysterious, with the less obvious, with the potential, with the void, if you will. So there’s definitely an affinity with that within Taoism. And then people like Confucius wrote commentaries about the Yi Ching.

And as many, many hundreds of other scholars have written commentaries trying to explain this. You know, just like there’s been all these translations of the Tao Te Ching, people trying to, oh, I think it means this, so I think he meant that. And there are hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of all of these.

And so the Tao Te Ching, the Yi Ching, and of course, again, I mentioned that vast Taoist canon. And then there’s something called Chuan Tzu. Chuan Tzu, a later Taoist adept, you know, who is kind of an interpreter of Lao Tzu, if you will.

[Tod Perry]

Is that one book on that?

[Carl Totton]

Yeah, there’s a series of verses, chapters, and the only chapters that scholars think was definitely written by this guy are the seven so-called inner chapters. In fact, here, I actually have the book right here. See, the inner chapters of Chuan Tzu.

And again, it’s a lot of very wise, humorous kind of commentaries on the nature of the Tao and Lao Tzu’s teachings, but from just a latter perspective that may be more accessible for some people. And the scholar, Chuan Tzu, this Taoist adept, he had the famous dream, the butterfly dream, where he had this dream that he was a butterfly. But he wondered, what’s really reality?

Am I a man dreaming he’s a butterfly? Or am I a butterfly dreaming I’m a man? What is the nature of reality?

And do we ever really know? And how can we tell? And right now we think we’re awake, but is this a dream?

Particularly since there is such a thing as lucid dreaming, where you’re absolutely asleep, allegedly, but you’re dreaming and you’re aware that you’re dreaming. And so, where do you exist? What plane are you?

And so studies of consciousness, I think Taoism has some interesting things to kind of muse about.

[Tod Perry]

So, I’ve found that I’ve just kind of read the Tao Te Ching because it is dense enough that it’s like, that’s enough to tackle. I mean, not the actual amount of words, but the messages and every time you look at something, you might get a different interpretation of it. So I’ve kind of stuck with that.

I’ve read a couple of things outside that, but I guess maybe it’s time to move on to the Chuang Se. Forgive my Chinese pronunciation here. So, kind of moving on from that, we’ve talked a lot about it’s not Qi Gong.

What is Qi Gong?

Qi Gong. We’ve talked a lot about Qi Gong, but I don’t think we’ve really hit it on the head at exactly what that practice is.

[Carl Totton]

Well, Qi Gong could be described really as the ancient Chinese version of yoga and meditation. And the word Qi, of course, means energy. We’ve talked about that a little bit.

And Gong means work. So Qi Gong is working with energy. And energy is everywhere.

It’s part of this field of what the Tao is. But yet, each one of us also has our own individual energies contained within our being, within our body, within our brain, within our spirit, within our soul. And so the ancient Chinese, the ancient Taoist, and others, discovered that by engaging in specific practices, we could learn how to harness, collect, balance, and strengthen Qi for many purposes.

Number one, of course, is for health. Because, you know, Chinese medicine recognizes something like 26 or 7 different forms of Qi, energy in the body. And, you know, it’s in the different organs, it’s in the bones, it’s in the structure, it’s in the cells, it’s everywhere.

But by doing specific breathing and physical practices, you can have a sense of the Qi responding to your intention. And so you can actually think a certain way and observe a certain way and breathe a certain way, and actually manifest and feel the Qi moving through your body. And all of your organs, you know, Chinese medicine recognizes 12 kind of fundamental organs of the body, and each one has its own field of Qi.

And when the Qi in a particular organ gets out of balance, you know, it’s too much, it’s too little. Of course, if it’s too little, you’re going to become weak, it’s going to not be flowing very well, you’re going to become insubstantial, and the type of conditions or illnesses that come from a lack of energy or a lack of substance will begin to manifest. On the other end, if you have too much energy collecting at a point, or it’s too intense, then you get things like infections, you get inflammation, you get pain.

And so, neither of those extremes is conducive to good health. And so this Taoist notion of balance and harmony, by engaging in Qi Gong, we come into energetic balance, which leads to greater balance in the rest of our life. And we have good health, and yet a lot of energy at the same time that becomes accessible and usable in other aspects of your life.

Now, what are some specific Qi Gong practices? Well, there are thousands of them.

[Tod Perry]

Okay.

[Carl Totton]

And typically, it involves standing or sitting in one position, and then moving, coordinating different parts of your body in motion. My teacher from China, he said, you have to synchronize your eyes, your mind, your movement with your breath. And when you do, your Qi, your energy will automatically manifest and begin moving more under your control, under your direction.

[Tod Perry]

It’s like a physical meditation almost.

[Carl Totton]

It is. That’s why I compare it to yoga. Everyone, I think, has seen yoga where people move into different postures.

They sit on the ground, and they stretch, and they breathe, and they hold like a sun posture or something, and then they move to the next one. Well, Qi Gong is not usually so much like that, like sitting on the floor and getting into these stretching type of postures. It’s usually standing up, and then moving the hands, maybe in a circle or in a diagonal or in a spiral, while following that motion with your eyes and with your breath.

And so as the hand rises, we tend to inhale. As the hand falls, we tend to exhale. As the hand moves in towards the body, we’ll tend to inhale.

And it moves away from the body, we tend to exhale. It’s like Tai Chi. Tai Chi follows the same principle, because in Qi Gong, they say that the energy in the human body moves in a few ways.

Energy tends to rise and fall. It expands and contracts. It moves in and out, and it gathers and dissipates.

Those kind of eight things. And so Qi Gong follows that and gives you a practice to exercise this moving in and out, this rising and falling, this expanding and contracting, this gathering and dissipating. It follows those same actions, but gives you a tool to actually practice that.

So now, how does one learn Qi Gong? Well, you go to someone who knows it, and we’ll teach you. And of course there are books on it now, and there are DVDs.

I actually have a DVD out that teaches Qi Gong. I just finished contributing a chapter in a book where I actually teach some Qi Gong in the book. So it’s certainly out there now.

It’s definitely abundantly available to people. And one of my teachers, my teacher who came from China, he was pretty much the first person to actually teach Qi Gong to non-Chinese people. And where it had been kind of a Chinese secret for thousands of years.

[Tod Perry]

Ancient Chinese secret.

[Carl Totton]

Yeah, they exist. They exist. And then of course there are many different forms of Qi Gong.

Like I mentioned, there’s over a thousand at least. But even those thousands can be kind of condensed into a few categories. Some Qi is kind of the Qi moving through the physical body, through the muscles, and the joints, and the tendons.

Another type of Qi Gong is the Qi that’s moving and being collected and practiced in the organs of the body, in the meridians that Chinese medicine uses. In fact, by doing Qi Gong you might say you’re becoming your own kind of doctor of Chinese medicine. Rather than them putting a needle in you.

You’re practicing on yourself. Because they put the needle in to do what? To stimulate or balance the flow of Qi.

And we can do that through Qi Gong. That’s why if you do Qi Gong in your meditation every day, you might have much less need of the medical profession, whether it’s Western or Chinese.

[Tod Perry]

You become your own doctor.

[Carl Totton]

Another form of Qi Gong is that internal alchemy we’ve talked about. Where you’re mixing different elements of your essence, and your energy, and your spirit. And trying to really develop wisdom and higher states of psychic and spiritual enlightenment.

[Tod Perry]

How does one do that?

[Carl Totton]

Through very careful practice. Again, there are very specific types of Qi Gong that tap into this essence that’s said to be stored in your kidneys. And then that moves that and connect that with the energy that’s stored in the internal energy centers kind of in your lower abdomen.

And then link that to another energy field that’s in your heart. And so when you link this energy from the kidneys and into the lower abdomen and connect that to the heart and then lift all that up into the brain, to the pineal gland, if you will. The so-called third eye, which is kind of the third one that the Chinese talk about.

That leads to a heightened sense of awareness and perspective. And over time, it leads to greater sense of wisdom. And it moves one along the process of becoming enlightened.

[Tod Perry]

Ah, very nice. Now I’ve got to start looking into this. So I’ve got some real takeaways so far.

I’ve got to read the Chong Tzu and do a little Qi Gong. And now let’s see here. Let’s get on to the final chapter of the Tao Te Ching, the final verse of the Tao Te Ching.

This in no way… I love it. It happens to be the last one in the book, but it in no way ends the book.

[Carl Totton]

You know what I’m saying?

[Tod Perry]

I think it’s not like that’s the end. It’s just like you could read the Tao Te Ching kind of out of order, and it wouldn’t really matter. Besides, you kind of got to get the first one first.

And then the rest of it’s all…

[Carl Totton]

You definitely need to start with chapter one. Where he tells you that you can’t understand the Tao by talking about it. Useful to remember.

And then, of course, for the last 2,500 years, all we’ve done is talk about it.

What is Chapter 81 of the Tao Te Ching about?

[Tod Perry]

Alright, so verse 81 from the Tao Te Ching.

[Carl Totton]

Very short and very direct and to the point, I think.

[Tod Perry]

I’ve got my notes on this one.

[Carl Totton]

He says as follows. Truthful words are not beautiful. Beautiful words are not truthful.

Good men do not argue. Those who argue are not good. Those who know are not learned.

The learned do not know. The sage never tries to store things up. The more he does for others, the more he has.

The more he gives to others, the greater his abundance. The Tao of heaven is pointed but does no harm. The Tao of the sage is work without effort.

How beautiful is that?

[Tod Perry]

That is beautiful. Truthful words are not beautiful. Beautiful words are not truthful.

And how…

[Carl Totton]

It reminds me of the news. Yeah, yeah.

[Tod Perry]

It’s always the guy who’s going to BS you is the guy who speaks beautifully.

[Carl Totton]

You know what I’m saying?

[Tod Perry]

Like a lawyer. We have this interesting thing where for many years I’ve worked in advertising and radio advertising. And the interesting thing, interesting takeaway…

[Carl Totton]

Beautiful words.

[Tod Perry]

Yes. The thing I’ve learned is beautiful words don’t sell. If you use unbeautiful words, we have this thing, I’d say a great radio ad is like a three-legged dog.

It’s not cute. It moves kind of funny. And so when I write these ads it would be we always use guys that don’t have great radio voices.

Like a guy who works at the company who might speak funny or have an accent but it sounds very genuine. Things that are true, people can feel that immediately. Like you know on some level when something is false or something like…

When someone’s had plastic surgery, sometimes you don’t necessarily know what has been done to their face but you think that didn’t occur naturally. Right? We see things that are real and of nature so much that when something has been altered it sticks out no matter how much you’re trying to fix it or whatever.

And I think the same thing is with words. You know, things that are true are never really written beautifully. You know?

[Carl Totton]

I think a lot of this, it seems like Lao Tzu is talking about the nature of reality. Yeah. Truthful words are not beautiful because often what we see in our daily existence that’s true is not necessarily something that we would identify as beautiful.

[Tod Perry]

No.

[Carl Totton]

As having aesthetic attractiveness. But it’s true.

[Tod Perry]

Or an idea-wise attractiveness. There’s a lot of terrible truths out there that we have to navigate.

[Carl Totton]

Beautiful words are not truthful. Because often people are trying to color something in a particular way in order to sell you something. Right.

Or in order to get their political or other point across. In other words, in order to be right. So it’s in service of the ego rather than of truth.

And remember, even the Bible, there’s something in there about you shall know the truth and the truth will set you free. See, there’s freedom that comes from truth.

[Tod Perry]

Because you have to release your ego to accept truth.

[Carl Totton]

And look at the very next thing, he says, good men do not argue. Those who argue are not good. And so people who are stuck being right, getting their truth across to you and trying to be like evangelist or something and trying to convert you, Taoists don’t trust those types of folks.

[Tod Perry]

It’s kind of like on Facebook you’ll see people that post about political things or post about their ideologies every day and they’re trying to convince you of something. And in many ways I think that if someone’s always trying to hit me over the head with their beliefs or whatever that maybe they’re kind of insecure. You know, there’s a great running thing on the show where I always quote things incorrectly and I’m going to do it again.

It was like, she doth protest too much.

[Carl Totton]

Shakespeare.

[Tod Perry]

Yeah, and this aligns perfectly with chapter one. If I only read chapter one I think I’d know so much you could take from it. In chapter one, it’s ever desireless one sees the beauty desiring one sees the manifestation.

And in the same thing that we desire beautiful truths or we desire to believe in the world as a certain way and that’s almost like that false beauty. But once we let go of the ego and see the world for what it is, again it’ll set you free on some level.

[Carl Totton]

And I like what he says about the sage which never tries to store things up. Because the more you just try to keep collecting things holding on, clinging to things the more kind of bogged down you’re going to become. And then of course you feel you need to do what?

If you have a lot of things you’re going to need to do what? Protect it, right? And control it.

And control access to it from other people. And so instead what does Lao Tzu counsel the sage? The more he does for others the more he has.

The more he gives to others the greater his abundance. He’s talking clearly about sharing rather than holding on and clinging to things. This is mine and you can’t have it.

No. You give it away and then you’re truly rich. Because now everybody has benefited from your largesse.

Even I think St. Francis of Assisi, right? That’s basically what he said. He essentially said the same thing.

That in giving to others you’re giving to yourself. And by sharing with others you become you have a sense of abundance. And so this is Taoist ethics right here.

This is the core of Taoist ethics. The Tao of heaven is pointed but does no harm. It’s focused but it doesn’t harm anything in existence.

It has a perspective but that perspective is only valid if it’s not harming others.

[Tod Perry]

Now when they say the Tao of heaven, is that just like saying like the heaven is kind of the nebulous place where the Tao resides or comes from or the void we’re talking about or are they talking about the Tao of heaven being the way of heaven? You know what I’m saying?

[Carl Totton]

When Chinese talk about heaven, they’re talking about higher spiritual values if you will. And so when you’re coming from a place of your highest nature then you cause no harm to others. Because if you’re harming others then you’re you’re breaking the Tao.

You’re breaking the Tao. And that’s kind of un-Taoist if you will. And so the Tao of the sage is work without effort.

Work without effort. And so how do we work without effort? By doing what comes naturally.

What comes naturally. So there’s these old sayings when the sage is tired he sleeps. When he’s hungry he eats.

And so by doing things effortlessly and naturally you actually accomplish more than the kind of negative results and the pushback you’re going to get if you’re trying to cling to being right and to push your way onto others that may have nothing to do with what’s natural for them. And if you’re trying to acquire your wealth and riches at the expense of everybody else. Now the richest person is the person who has a Taoist sage knows when they’ve had enough and then everything else they just share.

Now everybody has enough. See? And now the world works.

Right? Everybody has a sense of fulfillment and they understand that through cooperation you can attain more than through cutthroat competition. That’s the western way.

[Tod Perry]

Through proper social alchemy we can multiply through cooperation.

[Carl Totton]

Yes. This earth has enough for all of us if we only knew how to share and how to cultivate naturally without destroying our ecosystem because there’s payback for that too. There’s a big payback for that.

And you know this earth has gone through various extinction events over the years and I pray I hope that we are cultivating a new one by not being stewards and caretakers of this garden. This wonderful magnificent garden we call planet earth. Our mother.

And our job is to nurture the mother. Learn from the mother because Taoism is called a nature philosophy, a nature religion. It looks at the harmony within nature.

The tides and the seasons and the wind and the rain and how all these elements when they’re working together they nurture the whole so that everything, every being every plant, every insect every animal has exactly what it needs to thrive. And by thriving it fulfills its mission. We all fulfill our individual and collective mission by becoming creative.

We become the creator. We become one with the creation itself while allowing space for everyone else to manifest their mission. So then you have a world which lives in peace and harmony.

And that is the Taoist ideal where everything can rise to its own nature by living in peace and harmony with the rest of all of nature. That is the way of the Tao.

[Tod Perry]

Beautiful. And with that I’d like to thank C. Joe, Dr. Carl Totton May the Tao be with you. Thank you.

The show opens with some musings about the similarities between The Force in Star Wars and the Tao. Later, Dr. Carl Totton disucusses his journey to become a Taoist priest. The show ends with a talk about the concept of immortality in Taoism and a discussion on Chapter 16.

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Episode Transcript

[Tod Perry]

You’re listening to What’s this Tao all about? A lighthearted look at Taoism featuring Dr. Carl Totton and Tod Perry. Carl is the founder of the Taoist Institute in North Hollywood, California.

Tod Perry knows a little about Taoism and is mainly here because he owns a few microphones. Now, let’s learn. What’s this Tao all about?

Hello everybody and welcome back to What’s this Tao all about? My name is Tod Perry and with me is the great Dr. Carl Totton. Sijo as we call him on this show.

Are There Similarities Between The Force in ‘Star Wars’ and the Tao?

Hello. And right now for those of you listening as these shows come out versus those of you who are in the future or tapping into what we’re doing. In December there’s a new Star Wars movie coming out.

The Force Awakens. So the force is awakening and I couldn’t help but note. I don’t know whether it’s intent.

I’m assuming it’s intentional on some level that there is a lot of when they talk about the force in Star Wars. A lot of it sounds a lot like the Tao. And there are a lot of kind of like Taoist concepts when Yoda trains Luke.

And, you know, and just the way the Jedi speak with each other and their practices. And the force, you know, the force flows through everything much like the Tao. And it’s about how the Jedi’s kind of tap into the force that gives them their power.

So it’s very, very similar to the Tao. So I was just screwing around on the Internet and I found that some guy had written the Tao of Star Wars. And so there’s this little segment here I want to go over.

And through effortless action or Wu Wei as we call it, you can feel the Tao. You cannot harmonize with the Tao if you don’t feel or are not aware of its presence. Throughout the Star Wars series, those strong in the force are constantly talking about feeling the force.

In Star Wars when Luke is learning how to use a lightsaber against the remote, Obi-Wan counsels him. Remember, a Jedi can feel the force flowing through him. You mean it controls your actions?

Partially, but it also obeys your commands. And then there’s another scene where in The Empire Strikes Back, Yoda admonishes Luke to feel the force during his training on Dagobah. Saying a Jedi’s strength flows from the force.

In one scene he tells Luke to focus and to feel the force. Feel it. And then Luke becomes kind of distracted by R2’s beeping and then he loses his balance.

And Yoda, concentrate! So Yoda’s forcing him to kind of feel and tap into this energy field. And it’s very, very similar to the Tao.

I can imagine in martial arts on some level, right? Because I know very little, but I took karate in college for about a couple months. But that was about it.

So I’d imagine that when you’re practicing judo, that you’re kind of wanting to get on some spot of effortless action, right? Where it’s no longer about thinking at all. It’s about tapping in and being in the zone, right?

And then just having that energy and being on that level.

[Carl Totton]

Going with the flow.

[Tod Perry]

So in a certain way, Yoda is kind of harshly… It’s a weird thing to admonish somebody to go with the flow, right? To really start whipping them like a horse and saying, just go with the flow.

But really, that’s kind of the discipline, I guess, required in Star Wars to do this. But it’s a similar thing, I feel.

[Carl Totton]

Yeah, and obviously George Lucas did his homework. When he put that original series together, films together. And he studied what happened in martial arts.

What happens in a lot of this Taoist and Zen literature. The teacher-student relationship. And all these things about becoming a warrior, Jedi Knight.

Who’s skillful and wise and compassionate at the same time. And has all these great skills. Which come not only from practice, but from letting go.

And allowing things to happen. And like you were saying, it can be led too. There’s a saying in Chinese.

The Yi leads the Qi. And Yi means the mind intent. The will, if you will.

And then that taps into it and collects with your energy. And then the body follows. And so the mind is sent out there.

And we actually have a practice in Tai Chi and Kung Fu that I teach. Where you actually envision yourself performing perfectly. So that’s the mind intent.

You want to see yourself at your best. And then you see threads of energy from this mental picture. Attached to your body.

And then it pulls the physical action out of your body. So now you have the mind, the Qi, the energy and the body all linked together.

[Tod Perry]

In some kind of alignment.

[Carl Totton]

They’re all in alignment. Which of course leads to alchemy. Which leads to manifestation.

And a more powerful… Very powerful at that point.

[Tod Perry]

And also there’s a scene where you were just saying you said let go. And that’s exactly in here. At the end of Episode 4, Luke is getting ready to blow up the Death Star.

And then he turns off his targeted computer. Because Obi-Wan says to him, use the force. Feel it.

Let go. And then he let goes. What are you doing?

You’re getting rid of all this technology that you know. He’s like, no. I’m just going to be in the zone here.

I’m going to nail this shot. So I thought it was kind of cool. Whenever I see this stuff.

Even in the…

Was Bruce Lee a Taoist?

[Carl Totton]

One of Bruce Lee’s films, he’s saying to his disciple, don’t think. Feel.

[Tod Perry]

Bruce Lee was a Taoist. They had a list of prominent Taoists on Wikipedia.

[Carl Totton]

Bruce Lee was on it. Yeah, well, he certainly studied philosophy in college. And he used a lot of, I think, just basic truth and truisms from Taoism as part of his practice.

Oh, nice. He talked about water a lot and emptying your cup. Things that are used in Zen, for example.

Yeah, Bruce actually was born in San Francisco and then was raised in Hong Kong. And then when he moved back to the States, he lived briefly in San Francisco. And then actually started his teaching career in Seattle.

And then he had a school. So he had three schools, ultimately. He had one in Seattle.

He had one in Oakland. And then one in Los Angeles, Chinatown. Ah, nice.

[Tod Perry]

So moving on here, we’re going to talk also on the show a little bit about becoming a Taoist priest. And a little bit about immortality. So we’ve got some good stuff here.

And then if we have time, because immortality, that’s a good one. That’s a darn good topic, Carl. And so then if we have time, we’re going to get on to Chapter 16 of the Tao Te Ching, which I think rolls nicely into the concept of immortality.

How Do You Become a Taoist Priest?

The question was, so how does one officially, because you are a Taoist priest, is there a formal, because I always feel that the Tao, an understanding of the Tao, flies in the face of formality, right? It’s usually kind of rebelling against formal types of things. So how does one, is there a formality involved in becoming a Taoist priest?

[Carl Totton]

Well, there is, and of course there isn’t. The answer you get to every question I ask.

[Tod Perry]

But of course.

[Carl Totton]

So, I mean, traditionally, you know, you had temples in China where people would go and live. And while they’re in the temple, they’re being trained to become a Taoist adept or a Taoist priest. You know, there’s a process of learning what one had to learn in order to receive ordination as a priest.

So you kind of get your official papers, you know. And so, like one of my teachers, you know, in China, he spent 13 years growing up in a Taoist temple. And in the temple, he learned various practices that would help him later, when he came here and had a life of service.

You know, so he would learn physical practices. You know, things like the martial arts, Kung Fu, to strengthen the body and mind. He would learn meditation.

He would learn Qi Gong, obviously. He would learn about the classics from Chinese literature. Things like the Tao Te Ching and the Yi Ching and on and on and on.

He would learn about ritual and ceremony, how to do weddings, how to do funerals. You know, things that any parish priest, you know, would know how to do. He’d learn about cosmology, about the universe.

How to align with the forces of nature in the universe. How to do blessings, ritual blessings and cleansings and healings. They learned a lot about Chinese herbs and how to use herbs for healing various conditions.

And even how to do things like exorcisms. You know, to rid people of, you know, unwanted states of being that they had become connected with somehow. And so, yes, there was a kind of a formal training program.

And to this day, you know, there’s that White Cloud Temple in Beijing. You know, they have priests there and there’s a priest training program. And so, you know, in various places in China and certainly in Hong Kong and Taiwan, you know, there are places where one can go study these things.

Here in the United States, of course, it’s much, much more rare. At the Dallas Sanctuary where I began studying in 1969, 1970, the founder of it, a man named Dr. Kai Aokdee. Very interesting gentleman, pretty well known.

He was an actor. Remember the original Hawaii Five-O? He was Wofat, you know, the infamous red Chinese agent who was the best villain on that entire show.

[Tod Perry]

I do remember the name. I used to watch that when I was a kid many years ago.

[Carl Totton]

Oh, yeah. He was great. So he was an actor.

He was a Taoist scholar. He wrote a well-known text on Taoism called The Eleventh Wing, in fact. He was an actor.

He was a psychologist. He was a hypnotherapist.

[Tod Perry]

Oh, wow.

[Carl Totton]

A very interesting person.

[Tod Perry]

I feel like you’re very similar to him.

[Carl Totton]

I’ve kind of followed in his footsteps to some extent.

[Tod Perry]

Credentialed in a very sense.

[Carl Totton]

He was one of my role models for sure. A very interesting and unique, dynamic human being. And so he had a training program to teach people about these aspects of the Tao.

And then my teacher from China was teaching, you know, the Qigong and the meditation and the martial arts and about Chinese medicine. And so we had those practices with the philosophical and spiritual practices. And so a lot of us received training back in the 70s in all of these traditions.

And then when we kind of started our own school and program, I opened up in 1980. So I started there in 1970. And then I became kind of the director in 1980.

And then in 1981, I opened up right here. We’ve been here since 1981, the same location. And then 1983, we actually put together our own kind of priest training ordination program.

And on and off over the years, you know, we’ve both here and our affiliate in San Diego, the Taoist Sanctuary of San Diego. We’ve had programs where we’ve trained people to assume some of these roles and functions. And then some of the other people who were trained might say at the level of being an abbot.

There’s a so-called, we have something called the Academy of Abbots. You know, those who went to the highest level and also kind of opened their own schools. Some of them are up in the Bay Area and up in the Washington, state of Washington.

One’s in Florida. One’s down in, I think, New Orleans. So there’s kind of a group of us, you know, who teach and train others to move along this path.

And so it’s kind of like an informal network, at least within our organization, to provide some structure and support for persons wanting to know more about these ancient traditions. Nice.

[Tod Perry]

OK.

[Carl Totton]

Awesome.

[Tod Perry]

That was a perfect response. Here’s a question. What is a Taoist funeral like?

[Carl Totton]

Most Taoist ceremonies have something to do with the five elements. Earth, wood, fire, water, metal. Somehow these elements, they’re woven into the weddings.

They’re woven into the funerals because, you know, you might say that these elements symbolically represent Earth and us as citizens on this Earth. And in Chinese medicines, each of these elements support and turn into the other. There’s a creative cycle and there’s also a destructive cycle, like for water can put out a fire, for example.

But yet water can nurture the Earth and make things grow.

[Tod Perry]

They’re in harmony, but they’re competing with each other.

[Carl Totton]

They both create and uncreate each other. And so a funeral, you know, I do things that I’m sure many priests or ministers would do. You know, I interview the family.

I get the story of the deceased and their relationship, you know, so that I can weave into my narrative, if you will. I tell people stories and, you know, and how this person was significant in their life. But I also weave in the ancient Taoist elements of the five elements and how this helps a person move through their life journey.

And now that their journey is at a completion on this level, we need to, you know, let them go here so their spirit can move on to wherever it’s going next. And so it’s a way of getting people to recognize that life and death, you know, my teacher said life and death exist in the same breath, at the beginning and the end of the breath. And so this is a natural cycle.

And so that’s what a Taoist funeral is like. It’s getting people to realize that death is part of life and that the end of the journey, a new one perhaps begins. One that we don’t necessarily participate in, but the deceased will.

And we’re all going to get there. We’re all going to get there.

[Tod Perry]

Now, what was I going to say? It’s funny, you were talking about the five elements and that cued in a heavy moment in my life. I was in India on the River Ganges, which my wife begged me not to bathe in, but I did.

You can’t go all the way to the River Ganges and just look at it. That’s right. It’s like the most polluted river on the world.

[Carl Totton]

I’m jumping in.

[Tod Perry]

For those that are unfamiliar, the River Ganges is the holiest river in India, and people bathe in it to kind of cleanse themselves. And it’s also a place where people go to die. And so they have kind of – there’s this one area where they – it’s kind of a hill, and you walk up the hill, and there’s all these little kind of rooms around it, on what would be, I guess, the second or third story.

And people who are dying go there. They stay in the rooms, and then their bodies are cleansed, and they’re put on these funeral pyres, and then they are burned to be with the five elements – the ether, the water of the river below, the wood they’re being burned on, all these different elements. And they said that right here at the Ganges was where it all kind of comes together.

And so it was the perfect place where no matter if the person was rich, poor, they all wound up right there. And so we walked up there, and I didn’t think we realized how close we were going to get to the business end of this. And we walked right up, and it was from me to you.

We were sitting about five feet from each other. There were bodies just on fire. And the ashes coming into your face.

And you could smell – there was a smell there. And it was in a weird way. It was like being in almost a human junkyard in a way.

But it was so final, and it was the darkest and also almost the most beautiful thing I’ve ever seen simultaneously of being around dead bodies. And there were guys up there, their whole lives, their whole jobs were performing this function. They asked for a very large tip.

Everything in India runs on the tip system over there. And so, yeah, it was real heavy. I’m just standing there with my wife like, wow, this is – it felt almost like a scene in Schindler’s List or something where you’re seeing all these almost atrocities, but this was just a beautiful thing that they were doing with their dead.

And that was probably one of the most powerful moments. I don’t think I’ll ever see anything as powerful and final and so embracing of death. So we’re standing there.

We’re looking out all over the river Ganges and seeing just the river flow by, and you see this person going up in flames, and there’s the ashes on you, and there’s the Indian man explaining the ceremony. And my wife and I and some friends are kind of shell-shocked. So then finally we walk down the hill and just kind of take a breath and go, wow, that was – we wanted to see something in India.

And we saw it. You saw it. We saw it.

You saw it. And so once we’re walking down the hill, and my wife’s kind of like taking a breath like, oh, my Lord. And we had this moment, and once we kind of had this calm and this release, the pitter-patter of feet coming around the corner came, and there was another dead body they brought right by us, and it was like, oh, you know.

So then I went back to my room, and I read and had a mango and vodka to relax myself, but it was so heavy, and I saw the idea of these five elements there, and it was beautiful.

[Carl Totton]

You know, Daoist funerals tend to be a bit more sedate than that. I remember once I was visiting San Francisco, and I was visiting one of the really nice Daoist temples there, the Ching Chung Daoism Association, and all the temples in San Francisco, Chinese in Chinatown, Buddhist or Daoist, they’re all in second or third or fourth-story buildings, and if you don’t know that they’re there, you have a difficult time even finding them. But this one, I knew exactly where it was, and you have to go up an elevator a few floors, and you come outside, and you go inside, and then there’s this gorgeous Daoist temple in there.

And so one year, as I went into the elevator, I got in the elevator with this young woman who was actually crying, and I asked her, well, what’s wrong? And it turns out her father had died, and she was going upstairs to the Daoist temple where they were going to have the ceremony, his funeral. And he was in an urn, you know, he had been cremated, and so we were all invited, you know, the three or four of us to join, because they knew me, and they knew that I had a Daoist center here, and they asked me to participate in the ceremony.

Oh, nice. For the funeral for this young Chinese woman’s father. And it was very nice, and so we kind of walked around, and we did some chanting, and we burned incense, and we consecrated his spirit to the Dao, and, you know, helped her let go, and at the end, you know, she was smiling, and she felt that it really helped her.

Oh, wonderful. And so it’s more, you know, funerals are both for the living and the dead, right? You know, the living have to be helped to go on, and the deceased, we help their spirit move to whatever is next, and the great adventure of life.

[Tod Perry]

Yeah, move on to the next chapter. What’s This Dao All About is recorded at the Daoist Institute in North Hollywood, California. Check out the DaoistInstitute.com.

See their schedule of classes, including Daoist meditation, Kung Fu, and Qigong. That’s DaoistInstitute.com. So let’s talk a little bit about a concept in Daoism that I don’t think…

Let’s see. Oh, we got plenty of time. We have plenty of time.

What’s the connection between Taoism and Immortality?

A concept that I don’t think we’ve really addressed, and I think it’s a very important part of it, that there is an element in Daoism which is almost a quest for immortality. And longevity is very important in Daoism. So, please, speak on it.

[Carl Totton]

There’s the setup. Speak on the most powerful, spiritually elevated topic there is in life. Go for it.

Comment on that. Your thoughts. And, of course, there are many thoughts.

Let me just read a couple of things from the Dao Te Ching. As a matter of fact, at the end of chapter 16, which we’ll talk a bit more about in a little bit, it says this. Being divine, you will be one with the Dao.

Being at one with the Dao is eternal. And though the body dies, the Dao will never pass away. And at the end of chapter 33, to die but not to perish, sometimes translated as to not be forgotten, is to be eternally present.

So, some people who are followers of the more philosophical tradition, the more scholarly tradition, if you will, of Daoism, feel that Daoism doesn’t really have a concept of immortality and that the death and the eternal aspect of that that the Dao Te Ching speaks of is more being remembered. And if you’re remembered, that’s a form of immortality. And so some scholars or philosophical Daoists approach it that way.

However, Daoist adepts, those who have been trained in what we’ve been talking about in some of these shows in terms of the alchemy, you know, the three treasures, taking the essence of a person and combining that with their energy and then combining that with their spirit, what that’s doing is cultivating a sense of abundant good health so that longevity is definitely, as you mentioned a little earlier, is definitely a goal. I think of many Daoist practitioners and many of them, kind of like in some of the stories in the Bible where you have people living to be hundreds of years old.

[Tod Perry]

Methuselah.

[Carl Totton]

Methuselah and all that crowd. A lot of the ancient Daoists were said to live a very, very long time as well. You know, again, several hundred years by doing these practices and by living sometimes kind of an ascetic type of life.

They’re up in the mountains and they’re celibate and they’re vegetarian and they’re meditating for hours and hours a day. The Daoist immortals are said to exist on what? Dew and air.

That’s awesome. But the way they got there was through training in this alchemic form of internal yoga that involves somewhat complex breathing practices and doing various postures and movements, linking the mind, the body, the breath with the spirit. And that cultivates these higher states of awareness that lead towards enlightenment and also towards longevity.

And then the perfect Daoist death, let me describe it for you, the real Daoist immortals.

[Tod Perry]

Is it like Obi-Wan Kenobi where you just disappear?

[Carl Totton]

Yes, that’s exactly what they do. They actually will tell you when they’re going to, quote, die.

[Tod Perry]

Wow.

[Carl Totton]

Having left their bodies and traveled to the astral planes, of course, thousands of times probably, they tell you, they’ll say, OK, on this date it will be time for me to move on to where I’m going next. And so when the date comes, they sit down, they say their goodbyes, and they sit in their lotus position and they close their eyes and they leave. Wow.

Now, is that dying? Well, the body has been left behind, but where did the spirit go? It ascended.

So this is the process of ascension. And so I think that schools of Daoist practice that are beyond just the scholarly and philosophical embrace this way of training to have abundant good health while you’re here and to see through these practices. You’ll read the ancient texts.

They talked about the cultivation of the immortal fetus. The immortal fetus. So that inside this aging body, there’s this young energetic body being created.

[Tod Perry]

Oh, yeah, yeah. I was reading about that the other day and it was almost a meditation technique where the people were, through meditation, creating this internal fetus. I was like, that’s some way out.

That’s not Daoist 101 anymore.

[Carl Totton]

That’s 300-level Daoist class. Now we’re in the university.

[Tod Perry]

So it was like they meditate and visualize and create through their meditation this internal fetus that then overtakes the body.

[Carl Totton]

Yes. Right. Yes.

Its energy overtakes the body until it becomes one with the body. Then when the person is ready to separate yin and yang, then they leave the body behind, like I described what some of the Daoist adepts do, and the spirit ascends and moves on to the higher realms of existence. Of course, even through quantum mechanics and physics, there’s talk about alternate universes and parallel universes and different dimensions of being and awareness and consciousness.

I think it’s a nice parallel to how this metaphor of creating this immortal fetus, which many, of course, would say it’s not a metaphor, that this energetic being is actually being created within. When we become one with that and it lives, because its energy, of course, is so much lighter than the dense, heavy body, it comes right out of the crown chakra at the top of the skull and just moves up the ladder.

[Tod Perry]

It’s almost like 2001, A Space Odyssey. You had this moment where, spoiler alert, at the end of the film, you have this star child, and it’s almost like this immortal fetus.

[Carl Totton]

It’s the immortal fetus for all of humanity moving into the next realm of existence and awakening and enlightenment, a renaissance, which I think we desperately need, by the way, right now in this planet Earth.

[Tod Perry]

It’s a little late in coming. Come on, renaissance. It’s funny.

It’s that weird thing where when I first time saw that film…

[Carl Totton]

My all-time favorite film, by the way.

[Tod Perry]

In my top five. Some days I’ll say it’s my favorite film, some days it’s like top five, but yeah, I agree. The first time I saw it, I saw the ending and I didn’t intellectually understand it, but somewhere inside my being, it was some weird…

What were these things? Archetypes. It was like this archetype, this fresh thing that was in me that it hit.

It struck a chord that was kind of beyond understanding or words, or it was like, oh, whoa, that’s it, right? It was really heavy, and it’s almost like you can’t really explain it when the star child comes. The movie hits on just these big landmark moments where humans kind of transform light years away and have this human renaissance and the last stage of that, and it’s like real heavy.

My wife doesn’t like the movie. I say, what are you not liking? This is the greatest…

I don’t get it. Oh, well. So the big deal, the big takeaway, I almost feel like the immortality is kind of a true north of the Taoist practice.

You know what I mean? Not necessarily something you’re going to attain, but a light at the end of the tunnel, or this is the direction things should be going.

[Carl Totton]

Yeah, well, speaking of direction, you took the thought right out of my brain. What is the action of the Tao? Returning.

Returning. Reverting to what? To where we came.

Where do we come from? The void. Right.

And so ashes to ashes, dust to dust, right? Yeah. Same idea, right?

We return to the source, and since we came from that and we return to that, then what? Then what?

[Tod Perry]

Maybe returning it? Returning.

[Carl Totton]

And so because everything comes out of this primordial source. It’s the source of all things. It’s the source of the Tao.

It is the Tao itself, as a matter of fact, which contains everything, including everything that has been and everything which, at this level, is now immaterial. But when something is immaterial, what is it? It’s potential.

It’s energetic. It’s… It’s the quark that appears out of nowhere and disappears.

Yes, it’s this quantum stuff. And so that cycle, and even here, if a tree dies or something and it falls into the ground and then it becomes mulch and out of that grows something brand new, right? It becomes…

[Tod Perry]

It becomes very fertile.

[Carl Totton]

It becomes food, yeah. It becomes the source of fertility for new life. And so this coming and going, this embodying and disembodying, that process has been going on for billions and billions of years.

And we ourselves are the product of what? A billion stars and suns that have exploded and out of their explosion coalesced Earth and us. And so what’s death?

What is it? It’s the most mysterious thing and yet the most natural thing because things come and they go but then they come again. Then they come again.

And how in touch with that process are we in terms of both the becoming, the being and becoming aspect and the letting go that then allows for something new to come into existence. And it’s also, I think, it’s a metaphor for daily life too. The more we cling to who we are or what we think we are or what we think we have, if you cling too much to it then you’re trying to hold on to what may have already outlived its usefulness because all of life is change, constant change, continual change.

The Taoists have always said that the only constant in life is in fact change. So yes.

What is Chapter 16 of the Tao Te Ching About?

[Tod Perry]

Very nice. So let’s finish her up here with a discussion on chapter 16 which I believe leads nicely.

[Carl Totton]

I read you the end of it a little while ago. Let’s go to the beginning of chapter 16 which reads as follows. Empty yourself of everything.

Let the mind rest at peace. The ten thousand things rise and fall while the self watches their return. They grow and flourish and then return to the source.

Returning to the source is stillness which is the way of nature. The way of nature is unchanging. Knowing constancy is insight.

Not knowing constancy leads to disaster. Knowing constancy the mind is open. With an open mind you will be open-hearted Being open-hearted you will act royally.

Being royal you will attain the divine. Being divine you will be at one with the Tao. Being at one with the Tao is eternal.

And though the body dies the Tao will never pass away. Nice. Isn’t that beautiful?

[Tod Perry]

It is beautiful. It is beautiful because it’s a slow rising progression and returning.

[Carl Totton]

Yes.

[Tod Perry]

Right, we go up all the way up the ladder.

[Carl Totton]

Returning to the source is stillness which is the way of nature.

[Tod Perry]

So how does one, to get practical here, how does one practice stillness?

[Carl Totton]

Well, there’s two, at least, two ways of attaining stillness. One is stillness through stillness and the other is stillness through motion or action. And this mutual containment of both action and stillness, of both motion and its absence is really what a lot of Taoism is really all about.

So, probably the traditional way of attaining stillness, of course, is meditation. And in meditation you literally sit down, you sit still, and you just, without an agenda, you just observe. You observe your mind, which, of course, is the monkey mind.

It’s chattering and running a million miles an hour, perhaps. But if you observe your mind, you’re not in your mind. And if you observe your emotions, you’re less in your emotions.

If you observe your body, you’re not so much in your body. Now you’re in this observer position. And the observer is much more still than the mind and the body and the emotions, which, of course, can be complete chaos in many people very often.

And so the practice of meditation is learning how to sit with that and just observe, just observe that.

[Tod Perry]

And strengthen the part of you that is just observing the mind.

[Carl Totton]

Strengthen the observer, which many, many people, I think the average person, is completely unaware of the existence of the observer. And the observer is, I think, more closely connected with the source of all. In other words, it’s in alignment with the Tao, rather than the 10,000 things, which are part of the Tao, but they are manifestations of the Tao.

And we’re trying to get back, of course, to the original source. How do they say here? The 10,000 things rise and fall while the self watches their return.

There it is. Lao Tzu telling us exactly how to do it. Right here in the Tao Te Ching are his instructions on how to do this.

[Tod Perry]

Okay, so let’s roll through this one again, by the way. Let’s start back up at the top. And there’s one more comment I have on that.

[Carl Totton]

Empty yourself of everything?

[Tod Perry]

Yeah, let’s just start back up at the top here.

[Carl Totton]

That is to empty yourself of everything. Let the mind rest at peace. Again, these are meditation instructions.

Now, I mentioned there’s two ways really to approach this. One is through quiet, seated meditation. Absolutely essential.

We pretty much have to do that if we’re going to really make a lot of progress. However, much of your day, you’re not just sitting and watching your thoughts and watching these things. You’re doing things.

You’re doing the 10,000 things, right? Tending to the 2,000.

[Tod Perry]

Performing maintenance on the 10,000.

[Carl Totton]

But in what state of being and mind are you doing the 10,000 things? Are you frantic? Are you distracted?

Are you annoyed, upset, driving, cursing at the people who are cutting you off? Or are you watching also? The skills that you have developed through quiet sitting, now can you apply this to daily life?

So that when you’re doing your work, when you’re driving, when you’re cooking, when you’re cleaning, when you’re talking, when you’re interacting, when you’re planning, when you’re doing the 10,000 things that you must do every single day, are you doing it with a new spirit? With a spirit that doesn’t have you so trapped in what you’re doing that you can’t see the forest for the trees, so to speak. You aligned yourself with the field and now, just like you were noticing your thoughts and noticing your breath and noticing your emotions, now, as you are doing and engaged in all these activities, another part of you is noticing that that is what you’re doing and because you’re noticing it, you’re not as caught up and trapped in often the pettiness of a lot of the things that we have to do every day because a lot of the things that you see people get upset about are really petty and yet they elevate this to great importance.

Oh, a car pulled in front of me and they’re blowing their horn and they’re yelling and screaming out the window and they’re throwing things at them. You know, I mean, give me a break.

[Tod Perry]

Yeah.

[Carl Totton]

Give me a break. You know, how much is this going to slow you down from reaching your destination? Ten seconds?

[Tod Perry]

Yeah, yeah.

[Carl Totton]

Maybe?

[Tod Perry]

Well, it’s because the person is taking it personal, everything that’s going on.

[Carl Totton]

Yeah, because now everything’s become tied in with their ego and the ego is that part of the self that wants to be right. Right. Often at the expense of other people being wrong.

And the ego is so damn petty. It’s petty, it’s fragile, and it’s an illusion. It’s illusionary.

Because ultimately, we’re all in this together. You know, again, the greatest illusion is this illusion of separation. Because if we really could see things as they are, we would see everything that our eyes gaze upon as being what they are, which is pure energy.

And we’re all in this interconnected field, the Tao, of pure energy. And we are pure energy. And so is the next person.

Just like the tree and the wall and the floor and the ceiling and everything else. And so if we’re all just kind of separate manifestations, at least in appearance, of really the same energetic field, what are we getting upset about?

[Tod Perry]

Right.

[Carl Totton]

What are we getting upset about?

[Tod Perry]

We’re all animated by the same thing.

[Carl Totton]

And we have these imaginary lines, boundaries, right? Borders. Oh, my country, right or wrong?

I’m on this side of the border and you’re on that side of the border. And if you cross this border, I want to kill you.

[Tod Perry]

It’s all very arbitrary.

[Carl Totton]

And these lines change, of course, throughout history, right? To the victor go the spoils, right? And it’s very arbitrary.

And it’s led to the current state of the world where you have all these groups having all this animosity towards each other. And what if you sat and asked the father and mother on this side of the line and the father and mother on that side of the line, what is important to them, for them and their family, their children? They would all tell you the exact same thing.

[Tod Perry]

Right.

[Carl Totton]

So what’s the difference?

[Tod Perry]

It’s all the ego and the arbitrariness.

[Carl Totton]

What’s the difference?

[Tod Perry]

The pettiness.

[Carl Totton]

There is no difference. And yet we have all these manufactured, made up, created the 10,000 differences that don’t amount to a hill of beans. They don’t amount to anything.

And so ultimately I think the Taoist prescription is one for universal peace and love because I mentioned, I think, in one of the earlier shows that a Taoist is any conscious being, a truly conscious being becomes conscious first of themselves. But then as you look around, you see all these other things, other people, other objects. And so as a curious being, you want to know, oh, what’s this about?

What are you about? Who are you? And then once I get to know you and understand you, I can relate to you with compassion.

And so out of curiosity comes understanding, which leads to compassion. And that is the way of the Tao. That’s Taoist politics, if you will.

[Tod Perry]

All right, well, we’re going to end on that right there. Thank you, C. Joe.

You’re very welcome. We’ll be back on our next show. What is it, show 12?

And we’re going to talk about some other texts besides the Tao Te Ching. We’re going to get into some practical stuff here, some Qigong, and of course, another chapter. Thank you.

Thank you. The End

After a brief hiatus, Dr. Carl Totton discusses his time at the Taoist Gathering in Oakland, California. Then Dr. Totton and Tod discuss the Three Treasures and Chapter 17 of the Tao Te Ching.

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Episode Transcript

[Tod Perry]

You’re listening to What’s This Tao All About? A lighthearted look at Taoism featuring Dr. Carl Totton and Tod Perry. Carl is the founder of the Taoist Institute in North Hollywood, California.

Tod Perry knows a little about Taoism, and is mainly here because he owns a few microphones. Now, let’s learn. What’s this Tao all about?

Hello, everybody, and welcome back to What’s This Tao All About? My name is Tod Perry, and with me is Dr. Carl Totton. Hello.

C. Joe, great teacher here over at the Taoist Institute in North Hollywood. And let’s see here.

I just had an odd thought on the way up here. And many people, when they hear this show, I guess it’s kind of what we call, quote, unquote, evergreen content. And somebody will be probably downloading this five years after we recorded it.

But as of right now, as of today, we’re in November. We’re kind of approaching the holiday season. And I had a strange thought.

I thought, you know, lots of American holidays are built around some sort of religious tradition or, you know. I was thinking, is there any such thing as like a Taoist holiday? Like, do you have like uncarved block day?

Or like, you know what I’m saying? Is there, I guess, you know, is there like a holiday in China? I guess the Tao doesn’t really lend itself to holidays because it’s kind of, I guess, against almost that sort of thing.

[Carl Totton]

Well, I mean, there’s Taoism and then there’s Chinese folk practice, folk religious practice and holidays. You know, I mean, there are people in China and in other places that celebrate, for example, Buddha’s birthday or Lao Tzu’s birthday. And a lot of the ceremonies, and of course Chinese New Year, which is based on the lunar calendar.

[Tod Perry]

Right.

[Carl Totton]

And so the date actually floats, you know, between around the end of January and the beginning of March. And so it changes every year. And sometimes, you know, people have various types, like for Chinese New Year, you know, Chinese people like to get everything done before the New Year.

Cleaning and paying off all your debts. In other words, so you enter the New Year with a clean, with an uncarved block, right? Right.

Clean slate. Clean slate. Yes.

I’m back at zero. Back at zero. Yeah.

And also around the seasonal solstices, they frequently will have some type of practice to welcome in the energies of the spring or the summer or the fall. And a big one, of course, is the winter solstice, because that’s the end of a period and you’re letting go so that you can create space for what’s going to be arising in the new year.

[Tod Perry]

Oh, nice, nice. So the other day you were up in Oakland, California, about six, seven hours north of here, at a Taoist gathering. Now I’ve never heard of any of this kind of thing going on.

So what goes down at a Taoist gathering?

[Carl Totton]

Well, lots of things. This actually was the 12th one, the 12th year. Nice.

And the person who puts this together, Dr. Alex Feng, he’s a doctor of Chinese traditional medicine. He’s also a Taoist priest. Oh.

Learned from his father, who was a famous in China, a Taoist scholar and physician and priest. And he’s a martial artist. He teaches Tai Chi and Judo.

Oh. In fact, just last week, he was in India. Oh, wow.

Not doing all the spiritual things, but going to the Judo associations in India and teaching and doing seminars on Judo. And so that was kind of interesting. But he’s also a Tai Chi master and a good friend of mine.

So every year, he has this gathering where Taoists around the country or even around the world sometimes can come together. And there’s always a theme. This year’s theme was connecting with nature and using an ancient Taoist practice called Daoyin, one of the oldest forms of Qigong.

[Tod Perry]

OK.

[Carl Totton]

You know, Chinese yogic and meditative practices.

[Tod Perry]

Yeah, we’re going to get into that soon, right?

[Carl Totton]

Yeah. And I guess several years ago, there was an excavation in a cave in China called the Mao Wang Gui Dig. And inside were several interesting things, including the oldest version of the Tao Te Ching ever.

[Tod Perry]

How old was it?

[Carl Totton]

Over 2,000 years old.

[Tod Perry]

Oh, wow.

[Carl Totton]

And also, there were these series of, well, I guess originally maybe it was like a long scroll or something, but it was all kind of messed up because it was 2,000 years old. And when they unfolded it, of course, it tended to crack, but they restored it. And I actually have next door a chart that’s taken from that.

And what it has are figures doing these Qigong, these yogic type of maneuvers, meditative maneuvers. And like I said, it’s over 2,000 years old, and it’s the oldest depiction that we have of Qigong also. So that was a major archaeological discovery several years ago in China.

And so people, scholars and practitioners get together. There are keynote speeches. A few years ago, in fact, I was the keynote speaker.

The theme was being and becoming that year. And so I spoke to that. People teach workshops on different forms of Qigong, different ways of understanding things like the Tao Te Ching.

Are you in like a field or a park? Well, for many years, it was actually held at, I think it’s called the Merritt College in Oakland. And then the last couple of years, it’s actually been at Dr. Feng’s school. He has a school and a Taoist temple in Oakland, and that’s where it was held.

[Tod Perry]

Oh, I got to check that out.

[Carl Totton]

In fact, it’s called the Taoist Center of Oakland.

[Tod Perry]

Oh, I got to check that out next time. I like to go up there for the Raider game from time to time. So this would be a good round experience.

Yeah. You’re getting in touch with the Tao and then going into the black hole and enjoying myself. It’s all about living a dynamic existence.

That’s right. You know, on some level. And you brought back a couple of things.

I saw that you brought back, it looks like some kind of stone Confucius carving.

[Carl Totton]

Yes. Dr. Feng’s sister is an importer, and she brings the most lovely artifacts from China and around the world. And so there are several things in my temple here that are over the years I purchased from her.

There’s a wood carving of Lao Tzu over here sitting on a block of wood. There’s another one back here, a carving of Bohidharma. The Chinese call him Damo or Buddhi Damo, the founder of Chan or Zen Buddhism.

She has really nice things that are perfect for a Taoist temple.

[Tod Perry]

Yes. Now, how many people show up to the gathering of the Taoists? Because I don’t run into that many Taoists.

And when I’m doing this show, it always sounds kind of very foreign and odd to people. And I try to make it not sound foreign or odd, but still come. Last night I’m in a poker tournament in Orange County.

I’m like, oh, yeah, I can’t be out too late because I’ve got to be up early tomorrow to go to record my podcast on Taoism. And they’re like, is that some form of cooking? So about how many people show up at a gathering of Taoists?

[Carl Totton]

Usually there’s somewhere between 100 and 200 people. Oh, cool. Yeah, again, from around the country and sometimes around the world.

And again, we just get together and kind of hang out. And there’s a program. There’s scheduled activities.

This year, in fact, since part of the theme was interacting with nature, we actually went out one morning to the botanical gardens in Berkeley. Oh, OK. Fantastic.

And we were looking at all the Chinese. There’s a whole section filled with Chinese medicinal herbs. And an acupuncturist, an herbalist, led us around and showed us all the different natural things that grow in nature that you can use for healing.

And that was really nice, particularly on a beautiful day in Berkeley under the sun and the clouds. It was marvelous.

[Tod Perry]

There’s something about the air in the bay. I don’t know what it is, but it is.

[Carl Totton]

Negative ions, I think, from the ocean. It’s very fresh. Really nice.

[Tod Perry]

Yeah. When I take a deep breath up there, I feel it goes deeper into my lungs than here. Yes.

There’s this crap in it. I don’t know what it is. Yeah.

[Carl Totton]

Air without particles and smog is always nice.

[Tod Perry]

Yes. Yes. So moving on, a while back, I’ve always been curious about this.

What are the Three Treasures in Taoism?

When I was attending a Taoist temple in El Monte, they had a ceremony for some of the Taoists, the members of the temple, that had moved on in their understanding or cultivation of the Tao. And with the Tao master that ran the place, he bestowed upon them the three treasures, or revealed the three treasures. It was kind of a ceremonial thing.

And I would say, what’s the deal with the three treasures? It almost felt kind of like, when you’re ready for it, we’ll get into it kind of thing. But I believe it’s a big part of Taoism on some level, and I figured you’d be a good person to explain this.

[Carl Totton]

Well, I mean, all of us, remember, we’re all part of the field. We’re all part of the Tao. And so everything that is within the Tao, we all are participating in, including the three treasures.

However, not everybody has cultivated their awareness and understanding of the three treasures, certainly not to the extent that other people have done so.

[Tod Perry]

Right.

[Carl Totton]

And so the three treasures, traditionally in Taoism, are known as jing, qi, and xin. Jing being primordial essence, pre-birth essence. It’s kind of like your genetic inheritance from your parents, your DNA, your RNA.

And this energy is said to be stored and reside in the kidneys in human beings. And then that interacts with your energy, your qi, which is stored in the dantians, the fields of elixir in your body. And the one that the practitioners really relate to probably the most is the so-called lower dantian.

It’s a theoretic space between about two inches below your navel and in front of your spine.

[Tod Perry]

Yes, certain meditations ask you to focus on that.

[Carl Totton]

Yes, all yogic breathing tends to focus on that area where they tell you to breathe deep. I often tell my students, imagine that you have a balloon in your lower abdomen that expands as you inhale and deflates as you exhale. See, because then you’ll be in the right area.

Rather than breathing high and shallow off the tops of your lungs where you don’t get full oxygenation, if you breathe deep like this by distending your diaphragm, you not only get a deeper, fuller inhalation, it settles your mind down deeper in your core of your body and takes you out of your head. Right. Which, of course, is a big problem for many people.

[Tod Perry]

Out of your head and into your mind, right?

[Carl Totton]

Out of your head and into your soul, hopefully. So that’s the second one, that center in the so-called lower dantian, this point below the navel inside the body where the energy is stored and therefore can be gathered and strengthened. And then the third one, the shin, means spirit in Chinese.

And in Chinese medicine, the spirit is actually stored where? In the heart. In the heart chakra, the heart dantian, which is very interesting because we now know that the energy, the magnetic and other electrical energy in the heart is actually more powerful than that in the brain.

And so many spiritual traditions, I’m sure you know and have heard, actually are trying to open the heart and be centered in the heart, which is a place of non-duality, a place of unity consciousness. And it’s interesting that for thousands of years, the Chinese have said that the spirit is actually stored in the heart. Very interesting.

And so these three treasures, when you link the essence, kind of your pre-birth energy with your qi, kind of your post-birth energy that comes from air and food and water and cultivation and practice, and then that combines with this energy in your heart, this place of non-duality and of ultimate potential, when all of that is linked in kind of an alchemic formula, that is one of the Taoist prescriptions towards enlightenment and immortality.

[Tod Perry]

Oh, so when you get all these things kind of lined up, is it kind of understanding and trying to balance out the three or find that personal inside of you balance of all those things? I guess with my feeble Western mind, I try to constantly balance kind of heart and mind about lots of things. As we were talking before we started recently, I made like a career change, and I was trying to use some of the – you were explaining to me on a show about when you’re making – ah, I got it.

It was part of a discussion on the day and the Tao in action. And in order to kind of – you have the Tao. It is manifested into reality through the day and through your actions through the day.

And you were saying that a big part of this kind of manifestation is when you kind of put all of your heart energy and focus on that, and that brings things kind of to life. And I was doing that, and within that I became wildly successful, more so than I thought in making this career transition. Excellent.

So hopefully these things that we discuss here are things people can actually practice.

[Carl Totton]

Yes. And then kind of one of the final steps is that once this jing and this qi and this shin and the heart are all aligned, and there are specific yogic or qigong practices for each one of these, by the way. Oh, okay.

Then, you know when you’re born, when your cells first – your parents did their thing and they kind of co-joined their energy, and then there’s a little nine-month process where we develop. But the very first thing that develops when the cells begin to connect and divide, the very first thing that develops actually is the heart. At the beginning, we’re all hard, literally.

And then the first thing that grows out of that is this tissue that becomes the tongue.

[Tod Perry]

Oh, really?

[Carl Totton]

So it goes straight – And that’s why in all Chinese traditions, when you’re meditating, what do they tell you to do? They tell you to take your tongue and curl it up to the roof of your mouth. Oh, really?

And so this thing that grew out of your heart, now it’s pointing at the roof of your mouth, straight to the center of your brain where the pineal gland is, right? The so-called third eye. And so by connecting the energy within the body from the heart into the brain, that is how spiritual consciousness actually is enlivened and awakened.

And you always hear, we want to do what? Wake up. Wake up.

Well, this is the Taoist prescription for waking up, for becoming an enlightened being.

[Tod Perry]

It’s finding these three treasures, getting this alchemy. It’s kind of like you have the three treasures. And to use a weird music metaphor, it’s kind of like you have John Lennon and you have Paul McCartney and you have Ringo Starr.

Now, by themselves, all talented people. But when you put the four of them in a room, it multiplies to eight, right? It becomes this whole other wonderful, beautiful noise that can happen.

[Carl Totton]

And let’s not forget George Harrison. Yes, of course.

[Tod Perry]

I was listening to him on the way.

[Carl Totton]

Yeah, I was listening to him also. While my guitar gently weeps.

[Tod Perry]

There’s a great version of Prince playing that song. He plays the guitar on it beautifully. So we’re talking about the alchemy of the three treasures.

And so in kind of enhancing one’s own, these three things, so basically there is separate kind of Qigong prescription. We’re getting into Qigong in another show. It’s weird, all these different things, they kind of interrelate.

Yes, they do. But it’s like almost we have to have a full understanding of each one or else it’s just all bizarre. So these different Qigong techniques can enhance these three things, which I guess would be, I don’t know, alchemically create something greater.

[Carl Totton]

And it’s all about connection. Connection, interconnection, interconnection. Because when we are connected, what happens?

What happens with a connected human being as opposed to a fragmented, disconnected human being?

[Tod Perry]

Much more productive.

[Carl Totton]

Yes, you have access to the totality of who you are.

[Tod Perry]

Yes.

[Carl Totton]

And the disease is fragmentation and kind of problematic dissociation. And the cure is always unification. That leads towards healing.

Remember, in Chinese medicine, what causes illness and dis-ease is stagnation, fragmentation, and disconnection. And imbalance. Imbalance, that creates an imbalance.

And when you’re imbalanced, things don’t work very well. And eventually you’re going to need some type of treatment or practices to return to balance. And a lot of this is unavoidable.

What human being can avoid getting sick sometimes, getting dysfunctional sometimes? None of us has spared that. And that’s okay if, and only if, you have some practices to restore your balance.

Then you’re fine. Then you’re fine. Then you can deal with the vicissitudes of life, the rising and falling, which there’s no way to escape.

It’s part of the Tao, just like seasons of the year. But you can restore balance because you know how. And that is the purpose of going to a teacher or a practitioner or a healer or a doctor of these methods, is to teach you how to help yourself.

Because they’ve been there. They’ve been there.

[Tod Perry]

Now, skipping back a little bit, you said something, and I know that I’m going to listen back to the show, and I’m going to be like, Why didn’t I ask him about that? So I was the pineal gland. Pineal, pineal, pineal.

Pineal gland. Now, I’ve noticed in meditation, which I’ve kept up doing just almost every day. Very good.

Unless I get rushed out of the house, but I don’t get rushed out of the house anymore. I work from home, so I have no excuse. But I want to.

It’s not a chore. It’s, oh, I can’t wait. I can’t wait.

So I’ve noticed that there’s a feeling in my mind, almost there’s a release of chemical or there’s something when it’s going well. Is that the pineal gland?

[Carl Totton]

Yes. It’s releasing endorphins. And also the alpha waves, which are associated with relaxation and ecstasy and fun and happiness, those are released.

All sorts of good neurochemicals are released in your brain that lead you towards a state of feeling, a state of well-being, a feeling of ultimately bliss. Calm. Calm.

Calmness. A calm, blissful feeling. Yes.

And that’s why people do it. People ask, what’s the payoff of all of this? Well, how about being in great health and feeling happy and blissful in your life?

[Tod Perry]

Right.

[Carl Totton]

Is that something you might want to maybe kind of look for?

[Tod Perry]

And the thing I love always, what you said before is, or I was reading somewhere and it was about the thing with Taoism and the Tao Te Ching. The whole point is not trying to get converts or trying to get this or wield some kind of social power. It’s try this because it works.

[Carl Totton]

Right. And the thing is you have to prove it for yourself.

[Tod Perry]

Yeah.

[Carl Totton]

We don’t believe in belief. Yeah. We believe in experiences.

Then you don’t have to believe because now you know.

[Tod Perry]

Right.

[Carl Totton]

Now you know.

[Tod Perry]

But belief is for things that haven’t quite panned out yet.

[Carl Totton]

Right. Right. And since you haven’t experienced it, well, oh, well, I believe.

Someday. Someday, maybe. But everything that you get as a practitioner of the Tao, you earn.

You earn. It’s like putting money, and remember, you used to be able to put money in the bank. You’d earn dividends.

Not so much now. Interest. Yeah.

I remember. In fact, I just participated in a book, and my chapter in the book, I actually called it Your Inner Bank of Health. Yeah.

Because every day you do these practices and you get dividends. You get immediate benefits.

[Tod Perry]

Right.

[Carl Totton]

And the longer you do it, the more benefits you get. Right. And so it’s something that people want to do.

They make it part of their routine because it’s something that makes them feel good. And it allows them, because they’re better balanced and there’s less divisions within their psyche and in their soul and in their body, it allows them to access more of the totality of who they are as a human being. And their potential.

And then, yes, exactly. And when you have access to the totality of who you are, guess what? Your life becomes so much richer and so much more creative.

Things don’t bother you as much.

[Tod Perry]

No.

[Carl Totton]

So you feel better all the time. And you become an exemplar. You become a role model for others.

[Tod Perry]

Yeah.

[Carl Totton]

So you don’t have to convert people. Just being in your presence, they feel different. And then after a while, they might say, wow, I notice you’re always kind of chipper and happy and seem really relaxed.

How do you do that?

[Tod Perry]

Yeah.

[Carl Totton]

And then you can say, well, I’ve been trying these things.

[Tod Perry]

It doesn’t come from nowhere. Or maybe it does come from nowhere.

[Carl Totton]

Out of the void. Yes. Out of no thing comes the all.

[Tod Perry]

Be like, yes, it does. Actually, it comes specifically from nowhere. And I’m trying to get to it.

What is Chapter 17 in the Tao Te Ching about?

So let’s finish up today with a verse, Chapter 17, which knowing that we were going to discuss this, normally I have notes and stuff. But after reading this one, I was like, I’ll let Carl take it from here.

[Carl Totton]

This is kind of a mysterious chapter, actually. It says, So the very highest is barely known to man.

[Tod Perry]

Is that some kind of metaphor for enlightenment? Or is it some kind of thing where extremes, because we’re always trying to stay away from extremes, maybe it’s one end of a spectrum versus the other?

[Carl Totton]

I think the average person is so bogged down by everyday life, they rarely do what, of course, we’re suggesting that they do, which, of course, is to create space to experience what might be alluded to as these higher states of being. But these higher, so-called higher states of being, come from doing what? Paying attention to daily life, to breath, to how you live, how you move, how you breathe, how you think, how you relax, how you exist.

You know, very basic things, which then…

[Tod Perry]

Yield, they bring you to the…

[Carl Totton]

Yes, they yield these treasures, right? These gifts, you know, they pay a dividend. And so these so-called high, the very highest, which is barely known by men, but exists, comes from these other things that, like Lao Tzu says, then comes that which they know and love, then that which is feared, then that which is despised.

So think about getting what you want, you know, that which you might love. And think about, on the way to thinking about getting what you want or what you might love, how fearful you probably are that you won’t get it, or if you do get it, that you might lose it. And how often our actions are guided by what we don’t want to lose, right?

And we’re comparing ourselves with other people. Oh, they’ve got this, I only have that. And there’s so much disparity in society these days, probably has always been, but it’s particularly acute right now.

And so much is fear-based, you know. They have this, and I don’t have that, and I’m afraid that someone’s going to take what I have. And so we become very, very, what, possessive and envious and jealous.

[Tod Perry]

And the Tao, much of what the Tao is about is about letting go.

[Carl Totton]

Letting go. Because then this thing about what is despised, and what do people despise typically? They despise what they don’t understand, and they despise what they feel is the unknown and what is different from them.

[Tod Perry]

And what threatens their way or their way of being.

[Carl Totton]

What threatens their reality, they despise. But yet, truth is, we’re all in this together. Everybody’s experiencing the very same thing.

And so this person over here is despising something about you, that of course they also have. We’re over here despising something about them, which of course we also have. And it becomes absurd, ultimately.

It becomes absurd. And so the Taoists have always recognized this absurdity in life.

[Tod Perry]

Hence the humor.

[Carl Totton]

And hence the humor, that’s why I laugh so much. And because this need to try to prove, it’s the ego. Trying to prove that we’re correct, often by proving that other people are incorrect.

And then striving to get things. And then when we strive and strive and strive, something that we’ve elevated to, oh, if I get this, this much money, or this particular position, I’ll be perfect. And then when you actually get it, how do you typically feel?

[Tod Perry]

Disappointed.

[Carl Totton]

Dissatisfied. Essentially it rots in your hand.

[Tod Perry]

Right, yeah. It’s like that cornstarch. For little kids, you put cornstarch and water in.

And if you hit it real hard, it fights back at you. But you put your hand in softly. But then you put it in your hand, and it all just drips away.

Nothing attaches.

[Carl Totton]

And so Lao Tzu says, when actions are performed without unnecessary speech, without all this striving, then people, of course, will take credit. They’ll say, hey, we did it. We did it.

Where the sage, avoiding all of that from the very beginning, just is satisfied with where they are, with what they have. And remember, a Taoist always knows when they have enough.

[Tod Perry]

Yes. Yeah. And so that’s the acceptance understanding of this kind of coming to one’s full potential in this kind of normal everyday around us.

Fine-tuning our human instrument kind of brings us to that level that we’re not kind of bogged down by all this hate and fear.

[Carl Totton]

And not getting trapped by our own expectations or others’ expectations.

[Tod Perry]

Even if you sometimes exceed expectations, the expectation is not met. Because you have this idea in your head of how things are going to be, and it’s never, ever, ever how you want it. Sometimes it’s better.

Sometimes it’s worse. But it’s never how you imagined it. So that’s what’s wonderful about life in a fun way.

But I think I can hear our outro music playing. So Dr. Carl Totton, C. Joe, thanks for speaking with me today.

We’re going to be back on the next show talking a little bit about immortality.

[Carl Totton]

May the Tao be with you. Yes.

“When there is no desire,
all things are at peace.” – Lao Tzu

Tod and Dr.Carl Totton

Subscribe to What’s This Tao All About? on iTunes >>

Tod’s smart phone is driving him nuts so he asks Dr. Carl how to find balance in a world ruled by technology. After missing a chapter last week, Dr. Carl and Tod cover chapter 13 of the Tao Te Ching, a verse dealing with ego. They finish the show with a discussion on chapter 33 that deals with enlightenment, waking up, and embracing change.

Subscribe to What’s This Tao All About? on iTunes >>

Episode Transcript

[Tod Perry]

Finding balance in a world of smartphones

Three, two, one, and hello everybody and welcome back to What’s This Tao All About? Dr. Carl Totton is here with me, the great Sijo, and my name is Tod Perry. And getting into this, I find that my phone, I feel like, is a barrier between me and existing peacefully. But I need the phone.

It’s a weird thing. Without the phone, my life would be kind of chaotic in a certain way because everything in life is now set up around the phone. I have to get my directions there.

When someone is going to come over to my house, they call me on the phone right before that or they text me or I have to be connected with it or else that’s suffering and misery in a way. But also having it is suffering and misery in another way. I was sitting there and I set the timer down when I meditate and I have the phone right there with the timer and then what do I get?

Oh, it’s an instant message. Now I’m out of it. I’m trying to meditate.

And then it’s and it’s a text and it’s an email. And I started trying to be conscious of it. And so one day I’m like letting it charge.

I put it in the other room and I set it up with the charger. I’m like, whatever. I’m watching TV with my wife.

We’re just going to hang out. It’s a weird thing that now the phone is so distracting that watching TV together is quality time. I was thinking about that when you said it.

[Carl Totton]

Really, it’s true.

[Tod Perry]

And so I was like, I’m not going to ruin my good time with my wife sitting here watching a baseball game or something. So I’m going to have the phone in the other room and then it is in the other room and I go, oh, you know, it’s like Pavlov. You know, I’ve got to grab the phone.

What could that be? It’s probably just nonsense, you know. But it is true on the other side of those text message are people and relationships.

And it’s not just a device, an electronic device barking at me. It is life kind of in its own way too. It’s my friend saying, hey, how’s it going?

It’s all this. It’s an email from my professional life. It’s, you know, it’s so many things.

And I don’t know how to compartmentalize all that with at the same time trying to be peaceful and not reactive and all that. I think it’s a very tough needle to thread.

[Carl Totton]

Yes. And, you know, our electronic devices, our so-called smartphones, it’s become kind of like a ball and chain.

[Tod Perry]

And someone’s listening to this show right now on one thing. Exactly.

[Carl Totton]

We’re tethered to this thing that in one hand was supposed to do what? Free up our time, right? Liberate us.

Liberate us. But yet it’s become our lord and master. Yes.

It’s how we process reality. Like you said, it’s how we connect. It’s how we relate.

What did we do 20 years ago, 30 years ago, 100 years ago, 200 years ago? How did we manage to get through life without this thing? We did fine.

Yet we did. And that’s why sometimes, you know, when people get too frantic and too obsessed, I actually recommend they take an e-fast, an electronic fast, a digital fast, if you will. And no electronics.

No, instead, take your wife by the hand and go walk to the marina.

[Tod Perry]

Yes.

[Carl Totton]

And look at the boats and watch the waves. And get on one of those boats and go over to Catalina Island and walk in the back country there looking at the buffalo and watching the eagles fly over your head. Right.

You know, because there’s things we get from that that we’ll never get out of our smartphones. Oh, I know. And so I think that, again, like everything, it’s about balance.

It’s all about balance. But we’ve gone way, I think, out of balance. With the phone, yeah.

With the phones and all the other electronic devices, you know, that really act as a mediating variable, I think, between us and reality. Because this has become the way that most of us actually connect with, quote, reality.

[Tod Perry]

I was watching the other day, there was, like, I guess, you know, the Pope was in town. So there’s all these people, and the Pope is driving by everyone. And to certain people, you know, the Pope is this, you know, magnificent person sent from God.

And to other people, he’s, you know, a guy who’s, you know, in a robe. And, you know, but for the people who went out there to see the Pope, and this was a meaningful experience, they all had the phone out. But every single human being was watching the Pope through the phone.

And I, just there. Yes. Just with their heart.

Yes. Having them, they had to capture it. They had to control the moment.

Yes. It became going hunting for the moment versus actually experiencing it. Or, it was funny, the other day, this sounds odd, but I actually agreed with it.

And it was Justin Bieber. Of all people. Yes.

I’m going to come on the Daoist show and say, Justin Bieber said something profound the other day. You can hang me. And he was saying, he was like, you know, he was being very arrogant or whatever.

And he was saying, you know, about how people approach him all the time. But he said, when you come up to me with your phone, do you really want to have a moment with me? Or are you just taking my photo so you can share it on Facebook and say I met Justin Bieber?

And I thought, that’s actually. That’s correct. He’s right.

I was like, that’s profound. Are you coming up to me to engage with me and say hello? How are you?

Check in, have a moment? Or are you just, you know, that’s it? And I could see where that would be, even if you’re Justin Bieber and empty experience.

[Carl Totton]

Yes. Look, I think we’ve learned that that’s the way to live our lives. Right?

If it isn’t documented and recorded, it’s not real. It didn’t really happen. Right.

Which is why we see all these problems with police brutality and all those things. Again, if it wasn’t recorded. We wouldn’t know.

It didn’t happen. Right? It’s just denied.

[Tod Perry]

And so. So having that is a wonderful thing because now we can hold our leaders and those in power accountable because everybody’s been deputized with this phone, which is fantastic.

[Carl Totton]

Yeah. But isn’t it a shame that we’ve gotten to that point in society, in our lives? You know, we’re relying on that rather than on our goodwill to do the right thing.

Right. You know, that should be our motivating factor. What’s the right thing here?

What’s the humane thing to do in this situation? Right? How can I help myself and everyone I’m interacting with, you know, really come to their fullness, come to their best, second by second, moment by moment?

That should be our motivation.

[Tod Perry]

Well, you know what? Okay. That’s going to dovetail in nicely.

I guess today, because last show, we didn’t get to it. We didn’t get to it. So now we’re going to do a double header for Chapters of the Tao Te CHing.

What’s Chapter 13 of the Tao Te Ching about?

And we’re going to do, I guess, Chapter 13. Yes. Is the first one here.

Yes. And see, now I’m using my phone right now for notes. This is great.

[Carl Totton]

I have my notes for the show on the phone.

[Tod Perry]

I love you, phone. But now there’s five text messages that people wanted. I go to grab a phone with my notes, and my sister emailed me about, texted me about football today.

I’m like, no, not right now.

[Carl Totton]

Be in the moment. You’re doing the Dao show. And Facebook, notifications, and all sorts of things.

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. So. Well, Chapter 13 of the Dao De Jing, I think, is a very interesting chapter because it talks about accepting things without being defensive, really.

In fact, I’ll read. It’s short, like most of them are.

[Tod Perry]

That’s the joy. They’re short, but there’s so much.

[Carl Totton]

Yeah. Not like reading chapters of the Bible where you can go on and on, right? Right, yeah.

Now, these are about a page, less than a page, a quarter of a page in some cases like this one. It begins with, accept disgrace willingly. Accept misfortune as the human condition.

What do you mean by accept disgrace willingly? Accept being unimportant. Do not be concerned with loss or gain.

This is called accepting disgrace willingly. What do you mean by accept misfortune as the human condition? Misfortune comes from having a body.

Without a body, how could there be misfortune? Surrender yourself humbly. Then, you can be trusted to care for all things.

Love the world as your own self. Then, you can truly care for all things.

[Tod Perry]

I feel like this dovetails nicely into the conversation we had on the last show about the unity conscious you were talking about.

[Carl Totton]

Yes, what a beautiful chapter.

[Tod Perry]

This one, they talk about the self. They’re talking a lot about the ego, I imagine.

[Carl Totton]

It’s interesting that Lao Tzu actually asks questions. He makes a statement, then he asks a question about it. Then, he answers the question that he just asked.

That’s really special. I really love this chapter. He says, accept disgrace willingly and accept being unimportant.

Again, you were talking about the ego. I think he’s counseling us to understand some fundamental truths about life. For one thing, it goes back to yin and yang as almost everything does.

Life comes in cycles. The tide rises and then it falls. The crops are planted and then they’re picked.

Then, it goes back to nothing. We have to start all over again. Everything in this universe seems to follow that pattern.

Yet, if we attempt to hold on to things like self-importance or I’m right, or it’s my way or the highway, then we are certainly going to be condemned to misfortune because none of those things are impermanent. None of those things are permanent. They’re all impermanent.

If we’re trying to grasp and hold on to something, particularly something as fragile as self-importance, which is dependent on what? Is it dependent on what you think about yourself or what other people think about you? What control do you have of what other people think of you?

Zero. Exactly. You will inevitably be disappointed.

[Tod Perry]

Pride goeth before the fall, I believe they say.

[Carl Totton]

Yes.

[Tod Perry]

You have this thing where it’s almost like, again, the idea of clinging to permanence and clinging on to how important you are because there are some people that are important in one room, but not important in another.

[Carl Totton]

Absolutely.

[Tod Perry]

It was interesting. When I was in India, I went to a temple where there’s a bunch of people that were making food for the poor and out of this temple, they fed 1200 people a day and there was a back room where people sat and they patted out like naan bread, right? And there are a couple of people making another dish in the other side of the room and the guy who gave me the tour said, you know, there’s people who come here who are some of the richest people in India and they come into this room and they sit and they pat out the naan bread and you know what, there might be a guy around him that is not as rich or as powerful that may be better at it, at making the bread and in this back room, the man suddenly, out of context, is not that important, but he’s giving and it’s all that.

You know what I’m saying? So to carry oneself through changing rooms, through changing geographic locations, through changing context, holding oneself in that high esteem, A, that person is going to miss out on what they can learn in that situation or whatever, but through being, I guess to be humble, and correct me if I’m wrong, to be humble is to be able to be malleable and to learn.

[Carl Totton]

Yeah, I think being humble means, number one, recognizing our common humanity, that we’re nothing special in the sense of being attached to self-importance because we’re all breathing the same air. We all have the same blood flowing through our veins. We all have to eat, sleep, get rest, have activity, take care of our health.

We’re all so much more similar than we are different. So where’s the space for this exaggerated self-importance and all of that? They say we’re all born alone and we will die alone.

That is the great leveler. Right. And so we’re all in the same boat.

We’re all in the same boat. And so I think that understanding that life, understandably, is going to have ups and downs and that the most, the wisest way to appreciate that is to get to the point where when we’re in the down phase, we say, you know, this too shall pass. And when things are going our way, this too shall pass.

[Tod Perry]

There was a, I was reading up on somebody’s thoughts of the chapter 13, so this is not my own, but there was a point that the observer took out of it and it was, if I have no self, right, if I have no ego, then what misfortune do I have? Actually, by eliminating that part of you that is the ego, which is the part of you that attaches to things. The part that wants to be right.

Yes. The part that says, woe is me, as well. That if, you know, sometimes, you know, if someone does something wrong unto me, if I’m looking at that from an ego conscious, I take it personally, right?

If I’m looking at it from an egoless, a desireless, we go back, I don’t know where my mind is, I go back to that same thing from the chapter one. Chapter one. And I just think, well, that’s that guy just doing his dance.

That’s him just being him right there. I just happen to be in front of him, and the misfortune was cast my way. If I’m looking at that egotistically, oh, I’ll get him something bad happens.

And I believe there’s something in here about not having revenge or I’m sure that might, maybe that’s in the next chapter. I think maybe that’s in 57 actually. Right.

The next one we’re going to do. Oops, spoiler alert.

[Carl Totton]

But he does advise about having this sense of community in this chapter, you know, about attending to the general welfare as opposed to just our own. Remember, he says, love the world as your own self. Then you can truly care for all things.

That’s altruism, isn’t it? The good of all elevates the all, including you.

[Tod Perry]

It’s like being like water. We were saying that water flows down and nourishes everything regardless of its position.

[Carl Totton]

Yeah. And that’s why I think that self-care and caring for others, if you’re looking at it from this perspective, is all the same thing. It’s all the same thing.

The greater good comes to those who contribute to the greater good.

[Tod Perry]

Yeah.

[Carl Totton]

Yeah. And if we’re only trying to take out our selfish part of it while the rest of the world suffers. Remember, we’re all in this together and everyone’s suffering is ultimately part of my suffering too.

[Tod Perry]

Right.

[Carl Totton]

And it tends to come from this sense of excessive pride and greediness. Now, it is impossible for most human beings to not have an ego, not have a self. I don’t think it’s possible.

I’m not even sure that’s a good thing here in a 3D universe.

[Tod Perry]

Yeah. You know, it’s funny. Sorry to cut you off, but I was just reading.

I had written a note down that applied exactly to that. And it was a hot take on this, to use a sports term, that the Lao Tzu doesn’t want us to eliminate the ego, but focus on yourself only enough that you don’t neglect the world. So, we’re talking about that balance again.

The Tao isn’t about… Buddhism is maybe about destroy your ego, destroy all attachment, all this. And the Tao has a softer hand and understands that the ego is there.

And it’s again about harmonizing and that balance and not going out of whack because when you go out of balance, that’s when everything falls apart.

[Carl Totton]

Yes. And I think it’s not that the ego or the self is the enemy because that’s largely who we are. It’s the attachment to that.

The wanting to always be correct, particularly to be right at the expense of others being wrong, when actually we’re all in this together. And the unique part of your ego and yourself is what can you add that is uniquely and creatively your own. That is really flowering of the self that also is going to elevate the greater good.

Because if you come up with something that’s really unique and practical and important and leads the world forward, then not only are you going to benefit, we’re all going to benefit. And so I really encourage everybody to discover your own unique truths and fruits and share that with the world because that’s going to elevate all of us. Because that’s your Tao.

[Tod Perry]

That’s your uniqueness. So it’s like… I guess does the balance come in appreciating the uniqueness and its ability to contribute to the world around you and how all of that kind of lines up linear.

Not appreciate your uniqueness, dominate everybody that comes in your way and destroy them.

[Carl Totton]

Remember, we don’t want to commit that… I was talking about the last show, that sin of omission where you leave out your contribution to the greater good and then because of that imbalance reigns and that harms all of us. Whereas if you contributed these unique creative ideas that we don’t know where they come from, but we know it’s coming through you.

Maybe it’s not even coming from you, but it’s definitely coming through you. It’s almost like you’re channeling it. Because let me ask you something.

Do you know what your next thought is going to be? No, I don’t. Does any human being know what their next thought…

See, so we don’t know where these things are coming from. So it’s coming through us. We’re kind of like the receiver and then the projector of it.

But we really don’t know where it’s coming from. But we have to refine our capacity to receive it wherever it’s coming from, from our subconscious, from the collective unconscious as Jung talked about. It’s coming from somewhere, but since each person is a very unique individual, as it comes out of you will be different than it comes out of the next person or me.

[Tod Perry]

Or how it’s communicated.

[Carl Totton]

But it’s like it turns into a beautiful stew. What’s better than a stew, right? Where you have all these different ingredients and everything has its own special taste.

But when you put it together in a pot, it’s immaculate.

[Tod Perry]

Immaculate. And that’s almost in a way, if you think about the collective subconscious and those kind of ideas that flow through that everybody catches and it comes from that ether or whatever, that that feels suspiciously like the Tao.

[Carl Totton]

Yes, yes. And Carl Jung obviously studied the Tao. He even wrote about it in the I Ching, another famous Taoist text.

Oh yeah.

[Tod Perry]

Is the I Ching, is that Taoist or is that…

[Carl Totton]

Oh, well, it’s a lot of things. I mean, Confucius studied it. All Taoists study it.

I’m sure Buddhists study it. Everybody studies the book of the E because that is the book of change.

[Tod Perry]

Yes, you have to understand that to know the Tao. Absolutely, absolutely. So can we move on actually?

I think we had down, I’m sorry, not 57, but chapter 33. Oh wait, we just did 13. 57 too, but later.

Okay. Just trying to get this going. Chapter 33 of the Tao, the I Ching.

What’s Chapter 33 of the Tao Te Ching about?

[Carl Totton]

Ah, yes. Yet another interesting chapter. You know, they’re all interesting, but some of them I think have particular relevance to what we’re discussing right now.

This is one of the shortest chapters, in fact, of the Tao Te Ching and has one of the most prevalent quotations ever from the Tao Te Ching. Oh, nice. Which is the very first two lines.

Everybody has heard this. Knowing others is wisdom. Knowing the self is enlightenment.

Mastering others requires force. Mastering the self needs strength. He who knows he has enough is rich.

Perseverance is a sign of willpower. He who stays where he is endures. To die, but not to perish, is to be eternally present.

[Tod Perry]

So to know one’s self is enlightenment. Right? And what was the, to know others is wisdom, to know one’s self is enlightenment, because I guess obviously the more you know about yourself, the more you’ll understand the man next to you.

[Carl Totton]

And what is enlightenment? Is it some special state that only the saints and people like Lao Tzu or the Buddha or perhaps Jesus Christ attain? What is enlightenment?

You know, I’ve done a lot of thinking about this. And I’ve spoken with many of my teachers about this. Spoke with one of my teachers recently about this.

And he said, you know what enlightenment really is? He said, it’s just waking up. It’s just waking up.

[Tod Perry]

The Buddha was the guy who woke up?

[Carl Totton]

Yeah, the enlightened one, the awakened one, is what the Buddha actually means. It’s a person who just woke up out of our collective dream one day. And we’ve been talking about all the things that keep us in a trance state.

Smartphones, the television, our electronic and digital devices have a way of kind of seducing us into kind of a trance state. The media in general is trying to entrance us to either buy something or vote for someone. You know, all things that may have absolutely little or nothing to do with who we are and our own individual creative unfolding.

So a person who awakes simultaneously, I think does two things. One, they see all the shackles. They instantly see all the ways that they have been attempting to be dominated, domineering, controlled, controlling.

[Tod Perry]

Or ways that they’ve shackled themselves.

[Carl Totton]

They see it from both sides. How they’ve shackled themselves, how they’ve allowed themselves to be shackled. How they put themselves in a prison.

But now, guess what? They found that they had the key in their pocket all along. Right, yeah, yeah.

And awakening is just understanding that, reaching for the key and opening the cage and walking out. And then looking around and seeing all these other people, millions of them, walking around in their own cage. And going, friends, friends, A, have you noticed that you’re in a cage?

And B, guess who has the key? You do! Wake up!

Wake up!

[Tod Perry]

Right.

[Carl Totton]

And so, all people who awaken, then their mission is to help others do the same thing.

[Tod Perry]

It’s like the Bodhisattva.

[Carl Totton]

Yes.

[Tod Perry]

Was the guy on the trail.

[Carl Totton]

Yes, in fact, right behind you is a picture of Kuan Yin. The Bodhisattva of compassion and mercy in Buddhism, as a matter of fact.

[Tod Perry]

Ah. Was it Milarepa that was the, was previously a kind of debaucherous human being and then kind of woke up and then spent the whole life trying to help others?

[Carl Totton]

Yes.

[Tod Perry]

Was it Milarepa?

[Carl Totton]

Yes. And so, it’s nothing special and yet it’s the most special and powerful thing that we could possibly do. Is become enlightened and wake up.

It’s just to wake up. Because then you can no longer be manipulated. You have no interest in manipulating others.

Instead, you’re in the flow of these ups and downs, these yins and yangs. And your mission is to go with that flow and to assist others in their journey of doing the same. Right.

Because doing so allows each person to rise to their fullness, to become this creative, uniquely contributing individual. And when enough people do that, voila, what happens to the world as a whole? A renaissance.

We’re going to have a rising tide of consciousness. We have a rising tide of consciousness. And that is so sustaining.

It feels so natural. It feels so wonderful. Because then you don’t feel desperate all the time.

You know, I heard a study last week where they asked thousands of Americans what was their number one regret. And you know what it was? That they worry too much.

The number one regret was that we worry too much. And what does worry accomplish?

[Tod Perry]

Nothing. And the reason we worry is because we’re attached to things we cannot control. Exactly.

If it was something we could control, then we wouldn’t worry about it. You know what I’m saying? It’s the thing that I worry about, oh no, oh no.

My wife’s going to freak out about something, right? That I can’t control. I can’t control her.

I can’t control the weather. I can’t control traffic. Oh, I’m going to come see Dr. Carl. Oh, I hope the five freeway.

[Carl Totton]

But what can I do? Nothing. Nothing, except go with the flow.

And then if it’s meant to happen, it will. When it’s meant to happen, it will happen. The way it’s meant to happen, it will.

Remember, as we discussed just a bit ago, you don’t even know what your next thought is going to be. So what’s this control that we’re obsessing about? We don’t even know what our next thought is going to be.

So how much control do we really have? Very little. What we do have is patterns.

Human beings get stuck into response patterns. We are creatures of habit. And so what you tended to do yesterday, last week, last year, five years ago, ten years ago, you’re going to probably tend to do very similar types of patterns because now it’s become a habit.

And so that becomes another part of the prison that we’re in.

[Tod Perry]

That we have to wake up from.

[Carl Totton]

Because what did the Taoist always say? What’s the only constant? Change.

We’re changing. Your brain is literally, your neurochemistry is changing. Your physiology is changing.

Your biology. Everything about you, every second is in a constant state of flux. But yet we cling to the illusion that we’re the same.

That this is the same brain, the same Tod, the same Carl that was here yesterday. When actually there are a lot of things different about us. But our memory is clinging to the illusion of sameness.

And as we attempt to then recreate that sameness, we’re missing the moment. We’re not being here fully present in the now. Again, we’re missing this constant ongoing flux of change.

And to that extent, we can’t fully contribute what we have. Because we’re trying to be back there when the moment is calling for us to be right here now.

[Tod Perry]

And I find that personally, as I get older and grow older, there are obviously ways which I’ve been resistant to change. Because sometimes you have your opinions, you have your mindsets, you have ways that you thought the world worked, where that maybe the more you learn, the more you realize you were wrong. And to sit there and go, you know what?

I’m going to reverse my opinion on that or the other. And inside, it’s the cognitive dissonance. And you go, why am I attached to that?

I should be humble and just go, I was wrong about that. But then, oh, other people, I’m going to admit to others I was wrong. Oh, how terrible that would be.

Then what am I? But it’s just because you’re not realizing that what are you? You’re somebody who changes and has to keep changing.

Yes. And evolving, or else you’re going to be one very bitter person because they have not adapted any of their thoughts. Yes.

[Carl Totton]

And see, and that word you just said is very important, which is adaptation. You look at life for the last million years. What is life in the big picture all about, if not being able to adapt and adjust to the needs of your environment?

[Tod Perry]

That’s the 100% thing. Everything that has survived and continues is that which has evolved.

[Carl Totton]

Exactly.

[Tod Perry]

And that that doesn’t, goodbye.

[Carl Totton]

It’s extinct. It goes away, yes. It dies, it’s extinct because it cannot adapt to constant change.

And so at a deep level, we have to know this.

[Tod Perry]

Right.

[Carl Totton]

But we fight against it. But we’re fighting it all the time. We’re fighting ourselves.

[Tod Perry]

It’s an ego. We’re fighting the ego.

[Carl Totton]

And that is the state of being asleep, in trance, the opposite of being awake and big. And so enlightenment is simply waking up and realizing all of that, realizing what we have learned over the last million years of evolution. I mean, it should be so imprinted in our DNA and genes by now.

But somehow because of our brain, which is bipolar, right? Our brains are split into this and that and right and wrong. And we want to be right, right?

That’s the ego, right? Clinging to the illusion of the self as this entity that always needs to be right, having my way. So we’ve seduced ourselves because we think we’re so clever into fighting our ultimate nature, which is a being who is in touch with the flow, the ebb and flow of this and that, of up and down, of front and back, of in and out, of night and day.

There’s no way to avoid that. But yet we’re trying to avoid it by clinging to things as we think they, quote, should be. Not how they are.

[Tod Perry]

Rather than how they are. You know, I think the interesting thing, I can’t think, and please tell me if I’m wrong, or listeners, comment on the website. Tell me if I’m wrong or tweet me at whatsthisdao.

I think the interesting thing is a true Taoist, no one’s ever going to go, well, they’re set in their ways. Or like I think many people who adapt to most philosophies or religions are it’s all about being set in your ways. It’s about being rigid with those words and rigid with those rules.

Following the rules. And rigid with that understanding. The Tao is almost, it’s antithetical to that because it’s saying change.

Be constantly moving. Don’t paint yourself into a corner. Keep moving.

Accept the fact that things are evolving. And it’s saying all these wonderful things which are actually the opposite of do this, do that, do this.

[Carl Totton]

And it’s like Lao Tzu says in this chapter, he who knows he has enough is rich. Is rich. Because it’s, I remember I think one of our early shows, I said, you know, remember when you were making $5,000 a year, you were fine.

Taoist knows what’s enough. And then when you made $10, and then when you made $20, and $30, and $50, and $100, whatever. You know, but yet, now, if you only made $5,000 a year, you’d be.

[Tod Perry]

I’d be running around like my hair’s on fire.

[Carl Totton]

I’d be robbing a liquor store. I would be out of balance. I’d be out of balance.

Yet when you were making $5,000 or $10,000, somehow you managed. You managed to get by. Ramen.

And so now we’ve gotten to the position where a lot of people, no amount is enough, right? If they have 10 million, they want 20. If they have 100 million, they want 200 million.

There’s never enough. And when you get into this point where there’s never enough, you know what that means? You’re never satisfied.

And if you’re never satisfied, then you are in a constant state of disequilibrium. There’s no harmony in you. And if there’s no harmony, one of the unfortunate things that we as human beings often attempt to do is to take what’s bad or out of balance inside of us and then project it onto the world and to other people.

And so then we see this disharmony everywhere. And then what do we try to do?

[Tod Perry]

Stamp it out.

[Carl Totton]

Stamp it out. Kill it. Get rid of it.

Control it. Manipulate it. And yet it’s us.

We’ve done it to ourselves. You know, one of my teachers, one of the most…

[Tod Perry]

Creating straw dogs.

[Carl Totton]

One of the most profound things one of my teachers ever said to me is this. He said, have you ever noticed that whenever there’s a problem, you’re always there? Isn’t that great?

Life is an inside job. Life is an inside job. We’re seeing…

It’s almost like we’re living in this massive holographic universe, which actually the physicists say we are. We’re creating these structures, these things that are out of nothing, these illusions, and then reacting to them as if they’re real. Yeah.

And then wondering why we’re dissatisfied as we cling to these illusionary processes and objects and relationships and states of being and states of ego. And we wonder why it’s so dissatisfying.

[Tod Perry]

Yeah.

[Carl Totton]

And then we keep doing… We figure, well, if that didn’t satisfy me, what must be the problem? I must have to do it more or harder.

I’ll just keep striving and then maybe at some point I’ll finally feel okay. Well, sorry, folks. There’s no okay corral out there if that’s the way you’re going to try to get there.

[Tod Perry]

It’s to wake up.

[Carl Totton]

Yeah, it’s to wake up and it’s not about struggling. But yet we have defined it as such. We’ve defined it as such.

And that’s our… That’s our dilemma as human beings.

[Tod Perry]

And with that we cue the music. I’d like to thank Sijo for your wisdom on today’s show.

Thank you. We will be back next week with the next episode of What’s This Tao All About? What’s This Tao All About?

Our show opens with Tod reporting back after five weeks of practicing meditation. Is he doing it right? Would he know if he was? Later, Dr. Carl discusses how the teachings of the Tao can help right a world that’s gone out of balance.

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Episode Transcript

[00:30] Tod Perry: You’re listening to What’s This Tao All About? A lighthearted look at Taoism, featuring Dr. Carl Totton and Tod Perry. Carl is the founder of the Taoist Institute in North Hollywood, California. Tod Perry knows a little about Taoism and is mainly here because he owns a few microphones. Now, let’s learn: What’s This Tao All About? Welcome back to What’s This Tao All About? My name is Tod Perry and with me is Sijo, the wonderful Dr. Carl Totton. Hello everybody and we are here in the Taoist Institute in North Hollywood, California. Before we get into today’s show, we’re going to discuss my burgeoning meditation practice. We’re going to talk a little more about yin and yang and then we’re going to get to chapter 13 of the Tao Te Ching us a favor by rating the show on iTunes. So you can just pop on there, leave a review that does wonders for us in terms of being ranked with the other shows. So if you dig the show, we don’t ask for anything from the audience, but you know, give us a 5-star review and write something you dig about the show, or even a criticism. That’s totally fine. Also, if you listen to the show and you’re on Twitter, you All About What’s This Tao? You can follow me, Tod, at @TodAPerry, Tod with one D. Also, if you got a knife on, you got any kind of a smartphone, which I’m sure you do. You can hear us on the Stitcher app. You download the Stitcher app for free and you can stream us anywhere, anytime, as long as you have some kind of internet connection. So it’s a great way just to hey, whenever you want to get your Tao on or your stressed out work, something’s happening.

How do you meditate?

[02:30] Tod Perry: Just want to hear the show, just to relax, throw us on right there. So Sijo. Since we did the show, I think it was show 4 was on meditation. I’ve been practicing meditation every morning and now, but basically here’s how I do it. Now you tell me, I figured it’s kind of an undertaking to get to the point to where I’m waking up and I’m doing 20 solid minutes of meditation. Having that. Focus, having that. I believe as you’re telling me you have to develop the kind of streams in your mind or that focus or almost build up that muscle. Yes. So I started setting my, I started at 5 minutes and I would set my iPhone down and I would put 5 minutes on timer and go to a quiet room and sit and pay attention to my breathing. And it’s so funny because as you know, now I’ve been doing it, I don’t for a month, five weeks. Excellent. I’ve gotten up to seven minutes now. Then I do in the morning about 7.30 and I’ve noticed the grooves in the mind. I’m getting better and better at kind of when I pay attention to my breathing and then when the nagging thoughts come in, what am I doing later in the day, what’s that noise, you know, what’s happening? I’m getting good at kind of almost like the I’m not always great and the bad thing is, once I start kinda really, it’s a weird thing to be seeing they’re doing nothing of being like, I’m on a roll. But I think, I think maybe when he’s start meditating, you get that idea, like if someone explained that to me before I meditated I wouldn’t get it, but I’d be at a point where I would get the, almost this really good buzzing feeling in my body

[04:30] Tod Perry: Good, I go, oh this is great and then I lose it because I go, I gotta tell somebody about this. Oh no, it’s really working or I get excited to try to force it. And almost in doing it right, I would almost like lose my mental balance or you know. It’s what we call thinking too much. Yes, I would not think myself in thinking too much. You know, you ever gone surfing? No, I love to, but you know how after a while you don’t have to do anything but you’re in the groove and you’re just going along? You’ve seen surfers. Oh yeah. And when they’re really in the pocket as they say, they can just go for on and on and on and on. They’re not doing anything, but they’re getting everything. Oh yeah, definitely. Yeah. And they don’t have to try anymore. Yeah. But before they get to that point, you The wind, the surf, everything is just perfect, you’re in the flow. Right. And it’s in that flow, of course, is where we want to get the flow. You want to kind of disappear in that flow. But I guess in the beginning you’re kind of like, you’re watching a baby deer walk, right? And they get up and their legs are right and they’re struggling and it’s just a whole effort. And I think I’m

[06:00] Dr. Carl Totton: And get to that point more often where everything is shut off and you kind of almost disappear. There’s been a couple moments where I’ve been meditating and I felt like I’ve disappeared. Isn’t that wonderful? Isn’t that amazing feeling? It was almost like time skipped. Go thought, yes, ha ha. Well the same thing happens in meditation and by the way I can give you a little, a fun little tool please. You know when you start to notice that oh I’m thinking about dinner or work or whatever. See that as something that you can do something by putting it in a bubble. See that thought that idea and put it in a bubble and just watch it in your mind float right up to the surface and then It’s a bubble do and it guts to the surface of water.

[07:30] Tod Perry: That’s when you disappear and at that moment that’s probably when meditation truly begins. I feel like it’s something like that and maybe it took a month of this five weeks before kind of touching on that. Maybe it’s gonna take another six months or something before I just really get into it. But besides the really transcendent part which I can see is there and I’m just kinda working towards it. There is a feeling I get now every day of being calmer, of almost having greater control over my… I’ve worked my mind like a muscle almost in a certain way that I now have much more control over my reactions. Maybe things that would have angered me or ways that maybe someone said something me and I would bite back or I feel like I have a latency and extra step there. You’re not as driven by the reactive mind. You have space. Freedom. Freedom over my own mind.

[09:00] Dr. Carl Totton: But over your own mind, your own body, your own emotional reactions. Because if we are so attached to our thoughts, to our physical body, to our emotional reactions, we’re essentially a slave. Where is your freedom? Where is your control in that? You don’t have any. Something else, even though it’s part of you, but it’s a part of you, that you really can’t control. And we can be slaves to lots of things. External Internal things. Remember, life is an inside job. So we’ve got to go inside and learn how to modulate these responses. And it takes time, it takes practice. And this is just the beginning because meditation is should not be something that we have to. Okay, I’m going to sit down and for seven minutes, ten minutes, I’m going to meditate. We have to start there. But ultimately, life is a meditation, all of life. And

[10:00] Tod Perry: Reactive body that those reactive emotions governing and driving is minute by minute 24-7. Tishner of this. I met like seven minutes, right? What would you think would be the, it may be try to get to 20 minutes every morning? Or I mean, I don’t want to sit and be ripping off hour-long meditation sessions every morning. But, you know, is it, you know, like 20 minutes a way to, I know the TM people say 20 or I don’t know. At what point does it become obsessive or excessive

[11:00] Dr. Carl Totton: And have not necessarily derived from that with the expected. And I think it’s because they were trying too hard. They were being so slavy, so determined to do it right. They lost the essence of it. And the essence of it is to be fully present in the present moment where you’re not driven by your thoughts, by your physical body and by your emotions. That takes you 20 minutes. Whatever it takes is okay. And it’s not circumscribed by, okay, between this time and that time, I’m going to be in this state. You might say I’m going to practice at this, it’s like you’re lifting weights. I’m going to exercise, I’m going to lift my weights for the next 10 or 20 minutes. But you may notice that all day long, because you’re going to be in this state We’ve been lifting that weight. Now that your muscles are better developed, it’s happening all the time. That’s what we want. We have these little bursts of periods where we’re practicing we’re training. But it’s training for something. And the something is your entire life. That’s what really matters. His your entire existence. It’s funny. I’ll sit there in a golden room in the morning.

[12:30] Tod Perry: It’s a calm room with nice windows in the house so the sun comes in and the whole bit. And I’ll sit down and I’ll start meditating. And then the moment you start getting into it, you’re paying attention to your breathing, your eyes are closed. Then in a weird way the outside world gets louder. Right now I can hear the bus going all the way down the street. Now I can hear my dog scratching in the far reaches of the room

[13:00] Dr. Carl Totton: You know, you have figure and ground, right? You know, what’s in the foreground and then what’s in the background? You know, what’s figure and what’s background. And as you become more kind of in this space of freedom where you’re not to attach to what’s happening in your own immediate perceptions, then what’s in the background may suddenly reappear, even louder. And so now, it’s almost like yin and yin, Yang, yin. We have to learn how to take what’s in the entire picture and then transcend it by including it as well. And so every time, for example, every time you hear a noise, you just say to yourself, oh, that as I’m hearing that noise, I feel my breath going even deeper and I’m becoming even more relaxed. Now, as you utilize whatever What’s the ground look like? What would my house look like? It would be just this little dot down there. Oh isn’t that beautiful. And then you kind of go off on a meditation on that. So you want to use everything that happens as part of your practice. So there’s no separation between you and what you’re doing and what’s occurring. It’s all one. And my whole point is concentrating and removing the thoughts. So in one hand, I’m trying to put these thoughts into bubbles and take them away. And then is it just as valuable if I chase some thoughts down the rabbit hole? Or you can put the helicopter in the bubble too. That’s what I would have. And remember, it’s yin and yang. It’s what’s going on inside and what’s occurring outside. At the same time. Right.

[15:00] Dr. Carl Totton: of that creates a wholeness. And so meditation is not escaping away into some place only. It’s embracing the entire world but being more fully present and open and balanced as you do so. People who try, who have tried for many years to just get to this place where, oh I’m blissed out and nothing will bother me. It doesn’t work. Where as taking what’s naturally occurring in you and the environment and just being with it but getting to the point where you aren’t so reactive anymore. That’s the work. That’s the work. It’s not escaping. Where are we going to escape to. There’s no place to go. We’re here. Be here now. It’s kind of like friends or whatever. It’ll be like, you know what?

[16:00] Tod Perry: I’ve been doing this meditation, it’s like you almost have to approach it like, it’s almost a weird thing, people are almost put off by it. That’s freaky, that’s I don’t know what that is. That sounds tedious, that sounds difficult. It’s like, I’ve been doing this thing. It’s great, I just do it for this amount of time of day. It’s just simple and it’s very life changing and it’s

[16:30] Dr. Carl Totton: They look at me skeptically, like what’s tedious and difficult is not going with the flow and not changing and being emotionally and physically and psychically re-re-stuck in reactive your entire life. Now that’s tedious. Exactly. So ya that’s kind of funny. It’s like, ya know, because I think there’s some people in the embrace spirituality and stuff like that.

[17:00] Tod Perry: They do it in a way where it’s almost becomes part of their image. Yes. You know what I’m saying? And I think there’s a lot of people that do a very bad service to switch people practice Eastern stuff. Cause I’ll sometimes people go, oh I’m into this Eastern thing man, I’m so cool and blah. And they walk around all day, they’re using special terminology and they’re wearing certain things and it

[17:30] Dr. Carl Totton: And I think it’s nothing special. But yet it’s the most special thing there is at the same time. Yes. And it’s invisible. But yet it’s palpable. You can feel it. You know when you’re in the flow. You know when you’re not attached to your thoughts and your emotions and your body. You know it because you feel so enlivened and so enriched. And so… In fact, remember what Lao Tzu said in the first chapter of the Tao Te Ching, the Tao that can be spoken is not the eternal Tao. There are little yin no words for this state of being. We can allude to it, but we can’t, we should not confuse our words with it. That’s all yin the experience. That’s how it’s tough to know if you’re doing it right. You don’t even say like You know what you’re expecting, you know what you’re getting. This is not it. Doing it correctly. It’s true. It’s bearing fruit. And that’s the way to tell how anything is really working in your life. Is it bearing fruit? Are you getting what you need from it? Are you being enriched? Are you becoming more alive and more grounded, more stable, more able to just be here now. Fully present in the moment. If that’s happening, you’re doing great.

[19:30] Tod Perry: I’m wearing one, sees the manifestation. Right, and having a desire of a certain outcome or whatever. I’m missing it in a certain way. Right? But being desireless, then… Oh, you just told me. I said, how do I know if I know what I’m getting at it? I just told you two minutes ago. I feel this and I feel this and I feel this and I go… I don’t know if I can get it Even though the evidence is obviously there. Or if I’m not paying attention, I might just figure out that I’ve got it, yin and yang. See, Joe. So you wanted to talk a little bit about on this show before we get to the Tao Te Ching, a little more on yin and yang. We left some material on the table last time. I think it’s such a huge concept. Yes, all of Taoism, much

What does Taoism say about balance and yin and yang?

[20:30] Dr. Carl Totton: Seps of yin and yang and we could spend several years I’m sure as people have spent many centuries discussing yin and yang and have not exhausted the subject and we shall not today. Yes. However, as we all know that lately, you know, looking around the country and looking around the world, we see icy, you see, we all see evidence of things way out of balance. There’s so much war and decadence and injustice. And violence and people flipping out and freaking out and doing just bizarre crazy outrageous things. We’re all that coming from and we’re the balance in all of that. Obviously we’re far from being balanced on many, many levels.

[21:30] Tod Perry: There’s a certain part of the human, which is how we evolved and there’s parts of us that are still a bit violent, savage. There’s parts of that that are kind of a natural part of humanity. Would you say that lots of the places there’s war and random mass killings throughout the country? Is that part of our normal nature?

[22:00] Dr. Carl Totton: Nature, are we maybe just in balance expressing this or are we out? There are psychological and emotional, social, communication, relational, things that happen from relationships, things that happen in our lineage and our family, in our family of origin. All of these influences can help condition who we are. And then all of that takes place in the context of the society that we’re in. And the sub societies that we’re in. And here in the United States, with people from all over the world, there are all sorts of practices and traditions and attitudes and philosophies; we are really in a hodgepodge of many, many different things. And a lot of these things don’t necessarily mesh together very well. Or we as individuals or as groups or collectives don’t necessarily assimilate and balance that very well. And the lack of that is what leads to the violence and the lack of that. And the fact that I think that we’re so busy just surviving a A lot of the times that we aren’t doing what you were talking about earlier, taking time to just sit back and be present with yourself to really get kind of a handle on what were my thoughts going right now? What am I emotionally attached to right now? What are all these feelings that I’m experiencing? What are they driving me to do?

[24:00] Dr. Carl Totton: Balance, mentally healthy, individual, when you get off-kilter a little bit, your natural tendency is not to go out and put an knife in someone or pick up a gun and go into a school and start shooting people. No, but there are other people not quite as balanced as you see that they don’t have a filter between their raw, primitive thoughts. And they’re behavior. And so they just act this stuff out. And so if there’s a concept of sin, which of course is, I think in every spiritual religious path, sin is harming others. It’s really being not kind and not nurturing in your personal, social, and behavioral interactions with others. But being violent and crude in those relations. So if there’s a sin of commission, which obviously look around there are, I think that if we’re going to talk about this from the perspective of yin and yang, there are also sins of omission. There are things that we are not fully activating, expressing, or putting into practice, which then, in the vacuum, allow all of these other things, this acting out, to take place. And I think that that’s another place where meditation is so valuable because that’s when we discover our inner resources, parts of ourselves that have slipped under the radar because we’ve been so busy doing and thinking we missed all of this really rich portions of ourselves, where at the deepest level we understand the thing of the most important thing to understand which is that there’s no separation.

[26:00] Dr. Carl Totton: That ultimately we’re all in this together, we’re all in the same universe, we’re all in the same solar system, we’re all in on the same planet earth, breathing the same air, experiencing the same thoughts, emotions, feelings. And yet we’ve created artificially so many things that divide us, along ethnic, racial, political, economic lines. And so there’s always another. As the other and don’t see our common humanity, then it becomes very very easy to begin to act out violently. I don’t need to want to degrade something that we see a separate from ourselves. And that, to me, is a major social, economic, and political problem. This division into and demonizing of the other. When actually, we’re so much more alike. Different. Yes. Definitely. We really are. Yeah, definitely. At a deep, at every level, physiologically, you know, we all have the same type of brain waves, you know, our minds and bodies and emotional processing apparatus all works pretty much the same. But it’s what we’re doing with that, that separates and challenges us. And so I think that if we’re going to try to help society change direction, we need to have some practices, You shouldn’t be talking about things like what’s this Tao All About? To give us some tools, some resources to move forward. Because I think that right now we’re stuck. And many, many levels were stagnant. And in Chinese medicine, stagnation leads to disease, ill health. And I think that the world right now is kind of stagnant and stuck in a health position. Because we have not learned how to transcend

[28:00] Dr. Carl Totton: And see the big picture. You know, in history, the most exciting times when we had what? A renaissance. Where everybody seemed to be thinking at a higher level and then you see literature evolve. Art, music, science. Everything kind of rises to a really high level because people are not just squabbling among themselves. And instead, there’s something, there’s a greater good, a higher goal. And I think that this greater good and this higher goal is what we’re just desperately missing right now. And each of us I think these to really search our souls and say, again, why are we here? What were we going? And if the answers to that are not to our liking, then I think it’s incumbent upon us to really dig deep and find the answers. I’m not saying that I know all the answers that anyone has all the answers. But collectively, if we realize our common humanity and really begin to express what’s known as unity consciousness and that links all of us, then I think it’s much much easier to find this higher good that really permeates human striving for the last several thousand years. Because right now we’re dipping. We’ve dipped. We’re devolving to some extent, and it’s costing us dearly. Remember, unity and love is the heart of all true spiritual paths. And anything that deviates from that, to me, is not a true spiritual path. It’s something that someone has just kind of created in their brain to try to justify and excuse some kind of

[30:00] Tod Perry: There’s the old saying God hates the same people we do. There are a lot of people who happen to be bigoted or prejudiced, and they use their religion to justify that kind of behavior. Two people can share the same kind of religious mindset. There are many, I’d say people who are Christian and some of them are like, God takes care of those who take care of themselves. Screw them. Those people. And then there’s some people that go, oh, I’m Christian, I’m gonna be loving and giving. That’s all I can do is give. You know what I’m saying? There’s, you know what I’m saying? There’s, there’s, there’s, there’s, there’s an idea of, of Christ is a warrior and I’m gonna run out there with my submachine gun. And there’s other people that see it

[31:00] Dr. Carl Totton: Desire is projecting religion onto that. Instead of following maybe the truth of it. Yeah. Unity consciousness as embodied and emboldened with love is the true path in all authentic spiritual traditions. And if we de-beate from that, we’ll be de-beated. Right. We’ve de-beated. And there’s a lot of de-beans in this world. Yes. There are plenty. And so I think the purpose of these podcasts is to remind ourselves and to remind our listeners that, you know, we each of us at some level, we already know, we know, but we have to find what we know. Because it’s easy to miss. You know, because we’re too busy. We’re so busy doing and acting and thinking. And the media, of course, is notorious for conditioning us to believe that, oh, I need to get this And I need to have that. And so we’re either being kind of motivated to buy something or we’re being distracted from really greater teachings and knowing that we really could be doing. As I often tell people, why are you here? Is it just to make money and pay your bills? Is that why you’re here? I think not. It’s funny, I work in advertising during my normal life. And it’s so funny because the thing

[32:30] Tod Perry: You read a lot of books on manipulation and trying to get people to buy something, get people to get turned on to a product, all these things. I almost call it the dark arts. Because it’s not, you know, the manipulation techniques and stuff that people use through advertising. And I’m coming to the point where I’m not necessarily proud of knowing these things.

[32:56] Dr. Carl Totton: Yeah. And one of the things that I would hope that many of our listeners would be able to achieve is that ability to discern, to be able to see what’s being done to you. Because if you can see, you know, the man behind the curtain, so to speak. There is a man behind the curtain. And that the emperor really does not have any clothes on. Then it’s much more difficult for you to be manipulated that way. And to have your essentially have your mind, your will, control it by the way.

[33:30] Tod Perry: external forces that only really care about getting your money. And the Tao, your vote. And I think the Tao calls people, I think, sorry, I’m adjusting my thing. I think the Tao calls people to find this inert power. Yes. And tries to point them to this inert power, which I think the stronger you become, the more resistant you are to forces out there that are trying to You can distinguish the wheat from the chaff of life. There’s the chaff, but there’s also, once you understand and strengthen that, then you can fully embrace the good, appreciate it more, and accentuate it in your own life. It’s not just avoiding the bad, it’s amplifying the good. Absolutely.

[34:30] Dr. Carl Totton: It’s hearing that inner voice that each of us has. Again, who are you really? And what are you going to do with this knowing, this getting in touch with who you are? Where are you going to take that? What are you going to ultimately create? Each human being has within them the capability to be one with the Tao, part of the creative process. And to the extent- remember I talked about we need a new renaissance- well, if everybody was into finding their own creative essence and expressing that, voila, it would be here. It would be here. It would just manifest, boom. But if you’re being manipulated, dominated, controlled, sold products, if that’s what your existence is about, there’s no room, there’s no space for any creativity there. There’s no place for you to be fully present here in the moment. You’re too busy being distracted.

[35:30] Tod Perry: It’s being seduced to either spend your money or vote for someone. Who’s then gonna take your money and spend it? So, you know, the Tao calls somebody to be that rebel in a way. And not necessarily a rebel that’s here to up-turns, it’s a certain possibly maybe up-turn society, but one that’s there to see it for what it is and to have that clarity through building that inner strength and ability to see I’m gonna say here we are getting a little late in this show because we’ve hit on some wonderful things to get to today’s chapter of the Tao Te Ching. So what we can do is, next show we can do a double feature. We can do two chapters, one show, next week, in Q the Music, on What’s This Tao All About? Thank you for speaking with me today, Sijo. And thank you.

[36:30] [Music]

The show opens with some thoughts on the nature of the universe: is it friendly or hostile? Later we delve into a discussion of how the concept of god fits into the Taoist philosophy. The show closes with Dr. Carl’s thoughts on Chapter 5 of the Tao Te Ching.

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Episode Transcript

[00:00] [Music]

[00:30] Tod Perry: So welcome back everybody. Thank you for listening to What’s This Tao All About? Our continuing not struggle but our continuing path to get to return to the heart of the Tao. My name is Tod Perry with me is Dr. Carl Totton. We’re here at the Taoist Institute in North Hollywood, California. And on today’s show we’re gonna we’re gonna tackle the heavy topic of God and how that relates to Taoism, and whether there is a god in Taoism, or what the thought on that is. And then later we’re gonna get to a chapter of the Tao Te Ching. See here which one we have today in my notes. We have chapter five and before that just to get everything going.

Do we live in a hostile or friendly universe?

I found a quote the other day on Twitter which I thought was pretty heavy. You know, I want to get your opinion on it. It’s basically it’s I directed 2001, a space Odyssey, which is one of my favorite films. Barry Linden, Ise, Wed, Shut, The Shining, Dr. Strangelove, all these great films and he’s a kind of guy that in all his films there seems to be this big universal grasp. 2001, a space Odyssey might be the most deep, penetrating films, you know, I’ve ever seen and every time I watch it I get something different out of it but there’s a universal conscious. Bye.

[02:30] Tod Perry: I didn’t know. I hadn’t seen it till I watched it. It was like on an HD channel. I watched an HD version for the first time. I was like, what? Nothing looks better than it. And it’s, you know, how old 40 over 40 years old and there’s nothing that looks better than 2001. A space odyssey on the screen. It’s just amazing. But Stanley Kubrick once said, the most terrifying fact about the universe. is not that it is hostile but that it’s indifferent. But if we can come to terms with this indifference and accept the challenges of life within the boundaries of death, however mutable men may be to make of them, our existence as a species can have genuine meaning and fulfillment. However vast the darkness, we must supply our own light. So it came back to a basic idea of, I think, the average person has some idea on some A level of the universe is hostile, whether they believe it’s a safe place or whether they believe it’s indifferent. And when I read this, I thought I do believe that the world is indifferent. It squashes the good, the bad indiscriminately. When the lava comes down the mountain and wipes out the village, it wipes out everybody in the village. It’s somebody on the African savannah. It doesn’t matter who that person is. Life is just that way. But of course we can navigate it and not necessarily bend it to our will but exist within it in harmony and then increase our chances of survival or its friendliness. Or extract the friendliness out of it, right? So do you believe within the Taoist philosophy that the universe is hostile, good and different? I think the universe just is what it is

[04:30] Dr. Carl Totton: It day by day if something that an individual interprets as beneficial or good did happens, then does that make the universe good? If something negative or they perceive as negative happens, that makes the universe bad or hostile? Or if they’re just kind of going and it doesn’t seem to affect them one way or another, it is the universe neutral. So much is dependent on our perception and so much of our perception, of course, dependent on our senses. Our senses are dependent on what? Our things are internal mindset, we interpret everything. Exactly. It’s very difficult in one respect to really say. So probably neutral is probably the best thing to say. Because that can go either way. And then how we perceive it, how that perception then acts on our life is up to us. One of the things I told people all the time, particularly clients and therapy, I’m a psychologist, is that we like to get to a place in our life, in our head, in our psyche, where our contentment, our happiness is not dependent on our life. What’s happening externally? That’s very difficult for most people. They have good fortune, they feel good. They have bad fortune, they feel bad. I call that being a slave. Being a slave to the external world. Good things happen. We feel okay. Bad things happen. We feel okay. Because we’re okay.

[06:30] Dr. Carl Totton: Little control over what happens out there. Certainly other people, politicians, corporations. How much control do you have over any of that? It’s not zero. Okay. So why should their actions of these external forces affect your contentment? It shouldn’t. But it does every day. And so… And we choose the things that bring us down, right? We are focused determines our

[07:00] Tod Perry: The things we look at and the things we put in front of ourselves because you could probably of highest mind and have a difficult point of this. You could sit and look at a blade of grass and go, that is growing correctly. The universe is good. All this is great. Or you could turn on the news and go, ah!

[07:30] Dr. Carl Totton: And of course most of us have been conditioned to make one choice or another. We’re all creatures of habit. We’re all creatures of habit. In psychology it said that the number one predictor of current and future behavior is past behavior. What people have always thought, believed, done, they will tend to continue thinking, believing and doing. That’s very undouished, however. The Taoist exists in the present moment always. And the present moment is right now just past. Gone forever. Gone forever. Yet we keep clinging to the illusion that what happened a minute ago or a year ago, or 20 or 30 years ago, that that is still dominant and controlling our thinking, our reactions and our behavior. That way we’ll never be fully present in the moment. We’ll be a slave to our own, limiting and imprisoning thoughts, feelings and memories. We have the key. We’re both the prisoner and the jailer. And the purpose of the Tao is to give you the key. You can unlock the cage and just take a deep breath and go wow. And actually begin to rather than be the victim of your fate. So all these things that have been stacked up in the past and conditioned you to think, react, behave in a certain way and instead liberate you to actually source into the future. Into the future. Life goes backwards, life is always pulling us to tomorrow and to the next day and the day after that. So the momentum, the momentum trail needs to be

[09:30] Dr. Carl Totton: Lord, as long as we’re living in the past, we’ll never get there. We’ll never get there. So we want to be the masters, if you will, of our possibilities, rather than the victim of our fate. We want to be sourcing towards destiny, rather than towards the past and fate. Fate-bound realities. You want to be busy being born, as we’ve said previously. He not busy being born is busy dying. Bob Dylan said

[10:00] Tod Perry: So that was happening. You know, I was thinking the beginning of the first chapter of the Tao Te Ching about ever desiring one sees the manifestations; ever desiring one sees the source, or the, you know. I desired an answer from you. Tell me is the universe indifferent? Is it hostile? Is it a safe place? And you did not give me what I wanted to hear.

[10:30] Dr. Carl Totton: I said it is what it is, which probably translates to it being neutral. But it’s more than neutral though. Remember the Tao has been compared to a field. You look at an apparently empty field. And yet what does the Tao do? Continuously, it provides it with rain; it provides it with sunlight; it provides it with oxygen; and then, out of this apparently empty field, abundance of light. A Tao, neutral, positive- look at all the good that it just did right there. But yet, if you look at that reality, if you look at it closely, you’ll see, ooh, that those birds are eating those plants. Ooh, that animal, that bird, is eating that worm; it didn’t have the right to live. So is it neutral, is it hostile, is it, are it all just part of this big picture of, Be coming and going back. Creation and returning. It’s perfect. So I’d say ultimately the Tao is perfect. It’s perfect. What’s this Tao All About? In the Western concept of God, right? You have, you know, it’s

Do Taoists believe in God?

[12:30] Dr. Carl Totton: A person in charge of everything, created everything, is the mind that brought everything into existence. He’s a kind of a particular fellow that wants you to behave in certain ways. He’s always a man. Oh, well. So he says he, right? Right? That’s kind of the concept of the Western God. It’s Allah or the Old Testament God or the New Testament God. I don’t see how does that play into Taoism. Is there a Taoist concept of God? And something that’s eternal without limitation, the source of all creation. That’s often how people think of as the Tao and starting the sound of an awful lot like God, isn’t it? So even if the traditional, certainly philosophical Taoists don’t posit a man with a beard sitting in a throne somewhere. Oh, Te, they don’t posit that. But they do posit that there certainly is this energy, this consciousness, this thing that we can’t put a word on. So for lack of a better term, they call it the Tao. You know, that encompasses many of the attributes that I think many cultures would ascribe to the notion of God. Right. Right. So is there a, a God or is there

[14:30] Dr. Carl Totton: This nameless, eternal, formless thing that is known that for lack of a better term we just referred to as the Tao. The Tao sees all things as part of itself, it’s beyond distinctions, that’s something that we do and we make distinctions, the Tao doesn’t. And I guess the Western concept of God does make kind of distinctions. It’s separate from itself. It’s something to attain, something to, you know, through good deeds or something, you die and then you ascend to heaven and sit in the throne, right hand of God, left hand of God. You sit somewhere. You will be sitting. And it’s not now, it’s later, you know, it’s after this existence.

[15:30] Tod Perry: And in the Tao of Poob, Benjamin Hof writes that in the Western civilization we’re looking for the Great Reward. Eventually I will make this money and I will find success. I will find favor with the eternal God that will then bring me into Heaven, and then I’ll be happy. It’s this Tao and the Road thing where is the Tao, it’s boom right here. It’s right now. Right now. See it’s not a separate experience. Because Existence, eternity, and infinity. It’s already here, and once we transcend the aspects of ourselves that prevent us from being one with that, then we will be there too. Right. We’ll be there too. Was it the eldest, huxley, the doors of perception? Yes. You know what? What the full line when… Oh darn it. You do something and then once you break down the doors of perception, all is infinite.

[16:30] Dr. Carl Totton: Yes, you know, it’s what I call a timeless state of grace. You know, this state of being this itself. And who can ask for more than that? You know, we’re talking I think the last show about how everything manifests as this interconnected field of energy, this quantum field, we are immersed in this quantum field, but how many of us know that? How many of us experience that as an actual reality? And so once we transcend, it’s

[17:00] Tod Perry: Once you move away the blinders, it’s not that you weren’t there. If I put my hand in front of my eyes, I can’t see you. You were always there. I just have to remove the blinders. And then what was always there is just manifest. And that’s the Tao. You’re stripping away to get to that sense. Yeah, we’re removing the separation, the illusion of separation and then returning to That energy can either be created or destroyed. It’s eternal, it’s infinite, it just changes form. It changes shape. Much like the worm to the bird we were talking earlier about the indifferent universe. The worm becomes internalized by the birds. The birds food and then the droppings actually nurture new life, right? We were talking between shows we were talking about something about how to grow a garden. You need manure.

[18:00] Dr. Carl Totton: And so waste becomes the source of new life. Isn’t that a miracle? Waste begets non-waste. Yeah. Right. Talk about returning to the source. Right. See, it makes perfect sense. Yes. It really does. Yeah. You know. So it’s a matter of altering our own perception to be more inclusive. Because most people’s perception is very much like a horse, you know, with blinders on and we only see what’s right We are comparing what we see right in front of us to what we’ve seen in the past or making associations and then creating a label and putting on what’s right in front of us. Now, in the Western mind, you have the idea of heaven. Once if I act according to God’s law, if I accept, I have faith, then eventually I will have this kind of eternal state of bliss after and heaven and playing the harp and hanging out and everything. So, I get my mansion. So, I’m maybe even some virgins. Yeah, depending on which god. Yay, why not? So, that’s what now Tao Te, Ching Taoism doesn’t really have that kind of afterlife, promise or anything like that. No, no. Remember, this field of energy, remember, it can only change shape, you can’t kill it. Yeah, there’s no way to kill anything. It can only change form. And then, like the droppings, it’s gonna become some other form later. And so, I think that the Taoist way, this returning, is returning to where.

What is the place in the heart of unity consciousness?

Remember, I think the last show we were talking about, there’s actually a place in the heart of unity consciousness. Our brains are what do all this separation, of this and that, and judging and critiquing and keeping us from fear.

[20:00] Dr. Carl Totton: We’re all feeling our connection to the fullness, the holistic totality of the infinite. Once we let go of that so much and return to this sacred space in the heart and find this place of unity, we’re home. We’re home. We’ve gone to heaven if you will. We’ve found heaven right here in our own immediate experience. And it was just our this separation that was keeping us Really in a type of how? Because separation, almost by definition, leads to conflict, judgment, conflict, killing, death, war, etc. A hellish environment. So I think that if we’re living externally separate from ourselves and from other people, we literally have already created how. And heaven, if you will, is going back to this original state of innocence to this time. I’m a place of eternity that’s returning. It’s returning and the action of the Tao is always returning. Always. Remembering who we, I remember how we say, where do you come from? Who are you? Why are you here and where are you going? Yes. And that’s a remembering process. It’s not something that you have to create so much. You have to let go of the obstacles that keep you from being in touch with your own. And then what’s external to bring what’s internal into external existence so that we’re living our dream. We’re living this internal reality of who we are in the external world. The moment you do that, you are in the flow you are surfing the cosmic wave. You are in the Tao.

What does Chapter 5 of the Tao Te Ching mean?

[22:00] Tod Perry: Who are in the now and it’s beautiful. Let’s wrap up today’s show and today’s session we did three shows today sitting down here. Let’s wrap up with chapter 5 of the Tao Te Ching. Ah yes. Another interesting chapter. Ha! Kind of provocative, if you will. Yeah, I wonder if this is going to relate to me or what we’ve been discussing earlier.

[23:00] Dr. Carl Totton: Surprise. Yeah. Depending on the translation, heaven and earth are ruthless. They see the 10,000 things as dummies. Sometimes translated as straw dogs. Yeah, that’s what I ever had. The wis are ruthless. They see the people as dummies are straw dogs. Oh, the space between heaven and earth is like a bellows. The shape changes but not the form. The more it moves, the more the more the Hord yields more words count less. Hold fast to the center. Hold fast to the center, which of course is the really important part of this. Oh, chapter. That’s the admonition. That’s the answer. Return to the source. Hold fast to the center. The opening, I think it talks about, almost we were talking about the indifferent universe. And at the beginning about how it’s kinda got the Tao doesn’t really play favorites.

[24:00] Tod Perry: And then the people are like straw dogs and I was reading up on that and the straw dogs I guess in ancient times were used for like rituals. You would make dogs of straw, and then they were discarded after use. Right. Right. So in the same way, that kind of almost neutral universe of as humanity, you are all disposable. And I think that there’s in one way that’s kind of disturbing, and in another way it’s beautiful because it’s let go,

[24:30] Dr. Carl Totton: Sposable, this will all end, so participate. And there’s a sense of unity and equality in that notion as well. You know, whether you’re a king or you’re a popper, the universe, you’re all gonna be breathing the same air, you’re gonna eat whatever you eat and it’s going to break down in your body and provide nourishment for you, and you’re gonna live and you’re going to die. Right? No amount of lack of money will change that either. It doesn’t matter. It doesn’t matter. It’s in different. What do we laugh with though? As a human being in this kind of neutral universe. But yet we’re all interconnected. We all are part of the source. We all have infinite potential. Yet we’ve also been conditioned. We’ve had experiences. We were born in a certain genetic lineage. You had biological events that formed much of your capacity to think and to feel and to experience and to relate. And it built in some limitations, which of course can be transcendent, but right now, they’re perhaps limitations. You have an external reality, you have parents, you have school, maybe you’ve got the church, maybe you’ve got the intellectuals, if you will.

[26:30] Dr. Carl Totton: up structures and strictures about how you can live your life and yet you’re being asked to find your own way in the midst of all of that. Jumping these hurdles and yin. Jumping the hurdles, navigating the course. And so what can the Tao offer us as we navigate our way to this path, this Tao? I think what the Tao has to offer is A way of taking everything that we experience as gris for the mill. Things that look like they are a barrier very often provide the exact learning experience you need to do something even greater down the road to transcend. Exactly. And if it wasn’t there, it’s kinda like a knife, right? You need to rub it against a stone. No, the short sharpened it. Don’t we learn through adversity and difficulty? Yes. The worst thing you can do for a child is to give them everything and they never have to do anything. They never have to lift a finger to do anything to help themselves or to learn how to navigate the environment. No skills. The worst thing you can do to a child. What’s the difference between Tao and Lao?

[28:30] Dr. Carl Totton: You used it all the same. You took it in, assimilated it and moved on. You learned so. I always say either you are winning if you will because you’ve learned or you’re learning. You’re winning or you’re learning. You’re not really losing. You’re winning or you’re learning. You’re like that. I like that. And so it’s a new way of looking at obstacles in life, difficulties in life. And none of us knows where we, from whence we came, you know, we don’t know where we hear at some in a different existence, which then put us in a particular position right now, where we needed certain obstacles or challenges in order to grow even further. It’s an opportunity. It’s an actual Tao-given opportunity to grow and to change and to learn. And the fact that it comes around again, it gives us a chance to prove that this time we’ve mastered it. And now we’re ready to learn a different lesson. And if you don’t, it’ll come right back again. The universe is very patient. You screw up a thousand times and it’ll always give you a thousand and one chance.

[30:00] Tod Perry: That’s a nice place to wrap up chapter 5. Do you have a take away for this week that people can do and keep them on the path of the Tao to keep them returning? Remember the curse if you will, the problem, the illness, the disease is separation.

[30:22] Dr. Carl Totton: Leaving things is separate than us. When actually, or as a Chinese say, the universe is a sea of chi, a sea of energy. We are all interconnected, we are entangled as they say in physics. We are entangled in this field of energy. So a great exercise is to walk around and everyone you look at say, you know, that’s me. They look different, but that’s really me. That’s an extension of me. What if you look at a chair or a wall and say, you know, that’s really me. Be and see how seeing everything is being a part of you as opposed to being separate then you how that changes your reality. And changes how you relate to everything. And a great way to do that is to breathe. Because breath, breath is a rhythm. Everything you look at has its own natural energetic rhythm. Whether it’s another person, an animal and insect, the land, a tree, And so as you see this thing is being kind of an extension of me, I’m that tree, I’m that other person. Now let’s see if I can actually breathe with them or it. And see this feeling of connectedness, it will. I guarantee you, then you’ll, your self will kind of disappear a bit and you’ll, uh, right, because you expanded. Yeah. Beyond, you know, the limitations in your brain that made you think This notion of separation. It is the biggest illusion of all. In the entire universe it is the biggest illusion of all. The biggest Maya, right? The biggest Maya. And so if we can transcend that then we don’t hold on so much to our own emotional baggage, our old antiquated ideas about how this is this and this is good and this is bad, this is right, this is wrong. All the things that separate and divide us,

[32:30] Dr. Carl Totton: And instead we see that, you know, we’re all in this together. We’re all just part of the life force. And if we return to the source, the source being this knowledge that we’re really all the same, that we’re all interconnected, life becomes so much easier. It becomes perfect. Just become conscious of it. It becomes beautiful. Beautiful. Because that is the Tao. The Taoist life itself, the Taoist death itself,

[33:00] Tod Perry: Which doesn’t really exist. It’s perfect and it’s beautiful. Thank you Dr. Carl Totton for sitting with me today. My name is Tod Perry and you can we’ll be back next week with more What’s This Tao All About? and have a good one in his Dr. Carl signs off his emails to me May the Tao be with you. To learn more about the show, check us out online at WhatsThisTao.com. Follow the show on Twitter at @WhatsThisTao. Follow Tod Perry on Twitter at @TodAPerry. Now, don’t follow leaders and watch our parking meters. Hey man.

We open the show with a discussion on how to become a practicing Taoist. Later, Dr. Carl and Tod tackle the oh-so important Tao concept of Te. The Te helps put the Tao in action, Dr. Carl discusses how you can make it work for you. We end with a brief talk on chapter four of the Tao Te Ching which helps you find your own cosmic nature.

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Episode Transcript

[00:00] [Music]

[00:30] Tod Perry: Welcome back to What’s This Tao All About. My name is Tod Perry and with me is Sijo, Dr. Carl Totton. We’re here at the Taoist Institute to bring you a little more discussion on the Tao Te Ching. To try to put this mysterious, magical, wonderful thing into exactly what it doesn’t want to be put into words. So, we’re gonna start out here with talking about starting out. So, people who have ventured this Chances are you’re interested in the Tao Te Ching. You’re interested in some kind of practice. Carl, how do you feel how do people start out in kind of being a practicing Taoist or what you know what I’m saying? What’s the people know how to practice like Christianity? You know you kind of go to church, you model the behaviors in the Bible. What would be the way to be a practicing I guess Taoist?

How to become a Taoist

[02:00] Dr. Carl Totton: They’ll be a great answer. You know, people who have read the Tao Te Ching, they would call me, text me, or come to see me and say, you know, my gosh, I just realized I’ve been a Taoist in my life. Because some things were just resonate within the Taoist perceptions that make sense to them. And so I think that of course, I always advise people to start with the Tao Te Ching. Because that lays the wellspring from which so much richness has emerged, and I think that even though people may not understand everything in there, because understanding, trying and attempting to understand, is actually part of the problem. Yet the Tao Te Ching puts you in a position of wanting to understand while also realizing the limits of trying to understand. And that puzzlement captivates people. It’s fascinating. And it opens them up because you’re what is this? You have to expand the way you’re thinking or to grasp all of it or attempt to grasp it. Exactly. To try to figure out what this Tao is all about? Right.

And so people say, well the word Tao means the road or the path or the way. The way to what? Well, It’s a way to, you know, they say that the action of the Tao is always to do what to return. Yes. To revert to return to the source. What’s the source? Well, as I frequently say, you know, all of us are here in this world, in this universe, to live a meaningful life. And in order to live a meaning for life, there’s some conditions that help support living a meaning for life.

[04:00] Dr. Carl Totton: Knowledge or experience. What knowledge or experience? Well, most people at some point want to know that what they’re doing is actually something that is important in the context of who they are. So it goes back to who am I really? Where did I come from? Why am I here? Where am I going? What am I doing here? And so part of the Taoist experience is to become quiet enough and synergy enough and stably enough to begin to intuit some of these answers. Nobody can give another human being the answers to those questions. But yet, since each one of us is actually part of the field, this whole field of energy that constitutes the Tao, the answer is embedded in the experience. But it’s not in the words, it’s not, you know, it’s in, Actually having an experience, unpack that a little bit. And lived experience. But what gets in the way of lived experience? Well, most people after a while, they have a job to go to, they have bills to pay, they have responsibilities, they have kids to raise, they have to do things all the time. And in the doing of things all the time, they may have gotten away from something that internally, They might say they’re a heart’s desire, maybe they’ve always known that they were a painter or a musician or a crafts maker or a writer or whatever. Whatever at a deep level they intuit is would really bring joy and happiness and meaning to their life and harmony and harmony balance, but you have to aren’t doing it. They’re busy thinking and doing other things.

[06:00] Dr. Carl Totton: Who have gotten into a profession that they love, the demands of the profession get so specific that all the joy has left. Right, yeah. There’s no fun anymore. You know, you hear the thing. Are we having fun yet? No. We’re not having fun yet. Right. And my teacher, one of my teachers, you know what he said? Number one is fun. Number one is fun. Because if you aren’t engaged in a joyous way We’re missing something. We’re missing something. We’re so busy and we’re missing something. What is that something that we’re missing? That is what the Tao is all about. It’s getting to that something. Getting to that something. It’s different for everybody. But I am convinced that everybody has it. Why? Because everybody is part of the field. Everybody is part of the Tao. The Tao is all that is. And everything that is is what?

What is the action of the Tao?

[07:00] Tod Perry: Which is both good and of course is brought us some problems. So to practice kind of the Tao is to keep returning to it, almost in your day, returning to that something. Returning to that field and through certain practices, whether they be meditation, contemplation, being quiet, engaging in activities where you kind of turn off your mind and go into the zone. All these things are ways to return

[07:30] Dr. Carl Totton: to the Tao. Yes. Absolutely. Absolutely. I picked something up here. Yes. The sense of being engaged, you know when you’re really engaged in something that you enjoy, how time just flies. Oh, hours can go by and it feels like five minutes. It’s time for a moment. It’s time for a moment. And it’s been recorded the show and every once in while look down to a time check to figure out, you know, to kind It’s a certain way, yang, we get absorbed in what we’re doing. Music is a wonderful way to do that. Time and literally write some of this down because the things they’re just in are ahead sometime. You know it could kind of come in one ear and go out the other. But if you actually write it down so you can kind of return to it and look at it. And what should you write down? Well, what do you really enjoy most in life? What makes you happy? What you know I said number one is fun. What’s really fun for you. Yeah

[09:00] Tod Perry: Then you can look at that and say, hmm, lmao, You’re gonna be your pro, enjoy yourself, enjoy yourself. Get the most out of it, learn and then impress on. Right. And become the dust. Right. But look forward to it. Exactly. And I find that such a revolutionary thing, especially in the realm of philosophy or religion which takes itself so seriously or everything so sacred. And the Taoism more like, get out there, engage by the ticket, take the ride, have fun

[10:00] Dr. Carl Totton: While you’re doing it and that’s what life is. And it’s so simple and it’s almost like if you were to go up to somebody and go, what’s the meaning of life or how should I be living or what should I be doing? And you go up to them and go, no, no, it’s all about having a good time. Well, that’s not serious. Right? That’s not meaningful, but it is. It’s nothing more When you feel that it just radiates from you and it’s actually contagious. And other people are going wow, why is he having so much fun? What could I do? You know, they equally have fun. Not doing what they do but finding my own path. And Taoism is about helping each individual find their own way, find their own path. Same time understanding that we’re all part of this mix. You know, we’re here to support each other. I think a lot of modern life has become very competitive. Oh yeah. People are competing for a position. Completely. Competing for property, competing for money. Look at the history of the world. It’s a competition for resources. With one group trying to take somebody else’s resources and dominate, manipulate and control other people to get it. But what I don’t know what the truth is. Ch And that has led to gross global instability in terms of the environment, in terms of the ozone, you know, in terms of the basic conditions for life are now kind of teetering in the balance. We’re poisoning the life well.

[12:30] Dr. Carl Totton: It can go either way. It can go either way. And we wanted to go the right way. And so supporting people’s consciousness to make the right decisions that will influence the people who think they are in charge, right, the politicians, the industrialists, you know, these people are supposed to be representing who the people. People really want to have fun, to live a life that’s meaningful and to have peace, to have harmony, to have balance. And if our quote leaders are not providing that and they rarely do. Then I think that’s what leads to so much unhappiness and uncertainty and a sense of being frantic in this world to dance. And the anxiety that that creates. That leads to violence and depression and you know. It leads to both internal imbalance, like you just said, you know, depression, anxiety and external imbalance, you know, calls for invasions, war, just activity, you know, I do know how to use it. I do know how to use it. I do know how to use it. I do know how to use it. I do know how to use it. I This is a struggle and is in this competition with each other from the drums. Yeah. That all is over. Is that a way to live your life? No. You want to spend the next 30, 40, 50 years just doing that? Really? I don’t think so.

What does Te mean in Taoism?

[14:30] Tod Perry: The Hollywood, California. Check out the Taoistist Stute.com. See their schedule of classes including Taoist meditation, kung fu and qigong. That’s TaoistInstitute.com. Tell me if I’m wrong here. The character for Te is I was reading. It means upright heart or virtue and also combined with left foot which is stepping out. So it’s finding that virtue that one discovers on the on the Tao, on the road, taking that virtue and then putting it in action. So it’s actually not just living a life that’s you know you’re returning to yourself. You’re finding your Tao but also how to put that into the world around us and how to interact with people, and interact with the environment. So it’s kind of the I feel and correct me if I’m wrong. The external practice of the Tao. The motive energy for this act of creation for putting something out there. If you will.

[16:30] Dr. Carl Totton: Not getting anything done or fixing anything or changing anything because you don’t have that energy behind it. So, could the Te be kind of that animating energy behind the framework of the doubt? Exactly. Exactly. It’s that energy that allows things to become what they are. Okay. You know, often we might even know kind of what to do or how things should be done, but if we don’t have the mechanism for actually putting it into place, It doesn’t happen. So things remain in this nebulous, unresolved, unmanifested state. So it’s almost like the motivation, the creative force, the creative energy to put it out there in the world. It’s what takes it from the inside and puts it to the outside. And when the outside and the inside connect and are in harmony in balance, ooh, life is good.

[17:30] Tod Perry: That’s when you’ve kicked into the next gear. You have this returning feeling of the Tao where you say to yourself, I want to become a cook or use, in the Te, is that thing that puts it into practice. It’s the correctly and with right mind and right order going out to execute this meal you’re going to.

[18:00] Dr. Carl Totton: And the activity of internally picturing, you know, the way that we live as human beings, the way that we live in a sea of images to, you know, in order to do something, you have to see it as possible. You have to have some image, but some picture of whatever it is in your mind. But if it just stays a picture in your mind, it’ll never happen. And then I think this is the key. When you’ve taken what’s inside of you, put it out there as an absolutely attainable reality and then allow that attainable reality, which at some level has already happened in a universe of infinite possibility. It’s actually already happened. And so when we take this picture from the inside and actually Find it outside and then allow that to just draw us into it. That is the Te. That is how you actually created. It’s this law of attraction if you will. This law of manifestation. And that’s exactly how it works. But then, another thing is that you have to actually see it, think it as if it has already happened. That’s the key. It’s already happened. How would you feel if it’s already happened? Why’d be excited? I’d be so happy. You gotta feel that. And then how would your body feel? My body would feel really loose and strong and really intact. And when you put that mental and that emotional and that physical all together at the same time and place as you are envisioning this reality as if it’s already happened, bam, it manifests. That’s the Te.

[20:00] Tod Perry: So for the people listening at home, they have, they’re kind of figuring out their way, their Tao, and then to put it into action in your mind. And obviously it’s not just wishful thinking. It’s actual action, but when you have in your mind, your desired outcome, and you begin to feel like it’s already happened. It’s going to be easier for you to go out and achieve those things, because you have that confidence, you have

[20:30] Dr. Carl Totton: Relay of life, you’ve got to baton and you’ve got that goal to hit in its fully visualized. Right. And like I said on three levels, it has to be mental, emotional and physical. Okay. All three. And no doubt, it has to be like no doubt that it’s actually real. Because it actually is real. Some are out there. It just has to manifest it real in your life experience. Yeah. Right, that step, leap of faith. But you’re not just jumping into something where you literally have no concept. You’ve taken the inside, externalized it, and then used the external picture to pull you into existence. That is the process of manifestation. One more thing, a lot of people try to do what I just said in their mind, just try to use the mental way of creating it. That does work, but unfortunately because our minds are polarized, what you create, you will also create in these unconscious something that will uncreated. And you’ll get backlash. You’ll get sabotaged somehow. However, if we go to an actual more powerful creative place, the heart, where in Chinese they say the shin, the spirit, lives in the heart. The character for the Te was a bright heart or virtue. Yeah, it goes back to the heart. Because the heart unlike the brain is non-polarized. It’s a place of unity consciousness. And it’s pure. And that’s even Christian, isn’t it? The pure of heart shall see God, right? And the beatitudes, all that, right? So if we go to this pure place in the heart and create it from there, and it

[22:30] Dr. Carl Totton: It’s many times more powerful than the one that actually comes off the brain. Actually. So this is the place to actually do the creation. And so if we get in touch with our hearts desire and then let this process of manifestation emerge from there, it’ll happen. Without creating the conditions to sabotage and uncreated at the same time. The polarized brain can help itself. You know, we got right brain, left brain, four brain, back brain, to high We, we, it’s split, it’s separate and therefore we wind up splitting things into many, many different dimensions of experience and that leads to separation. Yeah. And separation is in many respects the problem. So yeah, I’ve been recently trying to kind of start my own because I work as a writer kind of during my normal when I’m not out cultivating the Tao I’m writing at a desk and I’ve been looking towards

[23:30] Tod Perry: Starting my own kind of in-home writing business where I have a bunch of different clients that I write for different things and I’m unlocking myself from the cage of having to be, you know, serve one master or whatever, even though the people work for quite wonderful but did kind of do my own thing. I’m ready for that in life. And so I’ve had this, I’ve had this thing I’ve been working on and I have moments where I think, These moments where I was about just ready to kind of step in but I feel like something’s pulling me back. There’s that weird thing where my heart has been consistent in my desire. My mind sometimes is no, you know what? Play it safe. Don’t go out there, don’t do it. And then late, it’s inconsistent. But my heart, I feel in it, has been consistent the whole way. So there’s a…

[24:30] Dr. Carl Totton: 5% of the time, the heart and mind have not been aligned. So it’s a point of keeping those things or just telling the mind shut up. Do the work. And ultimately what you just said is actually something very profound. Which is that the heart and the mind need to connect. Usually the average person is certainly here in the west, the mind is dominating most of the time. Left brain is pretty much in the boss, right? So now we’re trying to find this whole new way of existing and being getting in touch with this unified consciousness of the heart. Now, the heart has, you might say there’s two heart fields. One is the emotional heart, right? And we’re all familiar with the emotional heart, right? All the passions, the jealousy, the envy, the anger, the fear, right? That, and then we want to be coming from. There’s a deeper place in the heart that’s usually only found in certain types of meditation, by the way. That’s another reason why meditation matters. And so when we find this other place, so called sacred space of the heart, of the tiny space of the heart, it’s an actual physical place in the heart. But we actually have to move to that place and experience that as a real entity, a real It’s like the entire universe is in there. It’s where the Tao resides in every human being. And that’s where we can approach our highest nature and the highest component of all that connects all of us. Because we’re all in the same boat. We’re all in the same universe. We’re all from the El emanating from the same field. Exactly. And so if we can find that place and it’s not that difficult, you just have to know where it is and how to get there. And then turn to the Taoist Institute.

[26:30] Dr. Carl Totton: Our attention up to the brain, really to the pineal gland, if you will, and feel that connection between the heart and the brain. Now they become a single unity, a single unified field. So that the heart and the brain actually are perceiving the same way, maybe for the first time in your lives. Wow. And when you can do that, you’re home free. Wonderful. I think that’s a good place to stop with Te. That was very good. I like when we can talk about these things in a non-abstract, I mean it’s abstract in a way but actual… Here are tangible things to do. It’s not just words about that aren’t connected to your personal experience and your personal practice. See everything needs to support everything else. If we’re gonna use words and that we have to, you know, unless we’re telepathic, we’re gonna have to use words right now. Understanding that the word is not the thing that we’re really trying to convey. It’s pointing, right? It’s pointing in that direction, but then we each have to find how that resonates in our own experience. And every individual, that’s your birthright, is to do that. And our job is, It’s to point that out, you know, that you have the capacity to do that. And here’s some tools that might help you. But we can’t walk the journey for you. But we can point to the fact that you have a journey and there’s a path and we will support you when you walk there. You’re not alone. You’re not alone. You’ll never walk alone. We’re all in this together and we know that.

What does Chapter 4 of the Tao Te Ching mean?

[28:30] Tod Perry: So let’s get on to chapter 4 of the Tao Te Ching. And I think this one from my notes aligns with what we’ve been speaking. I love how, and this isn’t always intentional, how we have a topic, we’ll have a, you know, some things we discuss, in lo and behold we come to the chapter, and the chapter echoes exactly what we’ve been discussing. How about that? Yeah. How about that? Yeah.

[29:00] Dr. Carl Totton: Dr. 4 of the Tao Te Ching I think really concerns the notions of emptiness and infinity. So what does it say? Well, the Tao is an empty vessel. It is used but never filled. All unfathomable source of the 10,000 things. Now I love the 10,000 things is the metaphor for every. Everything in existence. Everything. So that was just a big number back then. Ten thousand. Right, they’re just throwing it out. That’s a lot of things. I mean, they could have said, you know, ten million or ten billion. They do go play. Whatever word you say is a five year old. A trillion. But I like how there’s that child like feeling of the Tao. There’s ten thousand. Yeah. Arbitrary. Yeah. But it’s unfathomable source of 10,000 things. You know, if you go back to the beginning, what’s our beginning as far as we know? The big bang, right? Right. Out of this big bang, everything came into manifestation, into existence. Well, what was before the big bang? Um, we don’t know. What, you know, where did everything come from? Before there was anything, what was there? Some people say there were some kind of few of the energy. We don’t know, we can only hypothesize. But in order for everything to exist, it does seem to have come from a one point, one source. From this one source, everything expanded and contracted.

[31:00] Dr. Carl Totton: Things are opening, things are closing, things are coming, things are going, things are living, things are dying. Even the biggest brightest star will live, glow, blink out eventually. And go down to a hard rock. And that’s what we are. A billion stars exploded, billions of light years ago. This is a monic energy actually went out into space and eventually, coalesced, cooled and yin and yin and yin and yin and yin and yin and yin and yin and yin and yin and yin and yin and yin and yin and yin and yin and yin and yin and yin and yin and yin and yin and yin and yin and yin and yin It is magic, it is a magic, and that’s magic. And the fact that we look like we’re the solid beings, the wall, the chair, the ground. Everything looks solid, it isn’t. It just atoms just floating around in a pool of energy, interconnected energies. Can you imagine if we all looked at each other like that? And we just saw ourselves as these balls of light energy, just glowing and all interconnected? Can you imagine without due to

[32:30] Tod Perry: That’s the truth about what we really are. Yeah, right not that I think the lie we’ve been told or we it was the great line by Yoda in the Empire Strikes Back where he says Master Yoda. Yes Master Yoda says luminous was it luminous beings are we? Yes not this crude matter. Yes. Yeah, it’s it’s amazing. Speaking the truth now if I can only have that in front of me 24 hours a day or you I’m going with my luminous piano, the wife, or you know, that piano. But it’s true. It puts things in perspective, doesn’t it? Yes. Yes. In a major way. And so he goes on to say after that, blunt the sharpness. Talk about arguing. Blunt the sharpness. Untangle the knot, right? Right. Thinking we think ourselves into knots every day, don’t we? Yes. Blunt the sharp I was reading that and I was looking at the emperors and I guess they were saying that emperors were like a Chinese idea of God or the gods that were ruling everything. And in the Tao they’re saying this unfathomable thing is from

[34:00] Dr. Carl Totton: Be on that. You know what I’m saying? It’s that. And to merge with the dust, I guess with some kind of metaphor for death and to almost dance with death. And we’re all cosmic dust. That’s what we are. It’s true. And that’s where we come from. We will return to that. Even the Christian, from ashes to ashes, from dust to dust. There’s so many parallels. I think that at the beginning people observed things and they had experiences and then they tried to codify that somehow by writing it down and then creating some type of system, some sort of structural system. To manage it, to continue to manage the information. It was primitive information management. And then add these things to make sure you adhere to it. You’ll go to hell unless you adhere to it. And the spiritual which then became religious then became the state. Very often became the state. And every state is concerned with what? Power and power. And how can you know, through manipulation, dominance or an. See so what started out as an inside as an understanding. Ending, I think is more into something else. A misunderstanding. Yes. And so I think Lao Tzu, yin, he’s always, it’s like the Tao Tzu Ching is like a mirror. It’s always in a very practical way saying, okay, take a look at yourself. Blunt the sharpness, untangle the knots, soften the glare. Because in our daily existence, we’ve got lots of knots, lots of glare.

[36:00] Dr. Carl Totton: I’m doing everything. And lots of sharpness. Sharp tongues. Oh, just to take a look at our current political debates. Oh my lord. It’s like life has become a reality TV show. I don’t know what the heck happened. I don’t know where everything went wrong. I think Lao Tzu’s way back then. He’s saying he’s illustrating how he’s going to be. All things can go wrong and pointing back to where we need to return in order to feel renewed back to the source. The source of these 10,000 things. Everything has a source. And if you can abide in the source rest in the source, it’s beautiful. It’s beautiful. Because then you feel like you’ve rediscovered yourself. You’ve found yourself. And how many people say that they want to find themselves? Blessed. I wanna find myself. I wanna figure out who am I. And then I think they struggle with that for a while and then they accept some answer, oh you’re this, you’re that. Now go to school, learn this, become that. That’s who you are, that’s what you are. And then when does that one becomes hopefully successful doing that. And then at the end, on their deathbed, people look back and they go, h

[37:30] Tod Perry: One, word of the time go and two, why did I spend all this time doing something that doesn’t and didn’t bring me joy and happiness? Isn’t this man guy? With the businessman guy you’re gonna have certain values and morals and adhere to those or you can go out and you can be the hippie guy and have these values and morals. You can be some compet- you know, you could be the- you know, there’s all these prescribed archetypes of people that- people are trying to fit themselves into. I find it to myself many times and I try to get out of that. So as we wrap up today, do we have a good solid takeaway or something that people can do to enact their Te or you know. Well, there’s always so many things, it’s a matter of just trying to come up with something that’s simple and obtainable, and it’s a very good idea to do it.

[39:00] Dr. Carl Totton: So, and easy to do. If it isn’t easy people aren’t gonna do it. And so I always think it has to be easy. So, one of the meditations I like to do is to think about visualizing all of your dreams. What is your ultimate heart’s desire? Think about that as a dream. And actually see, by the way, when you go to sleep at night, With this, it’s almost like having a word at the tip of your tongue. You want to have this image of this dream of what you really want most in your life, right at the tip of your consciousness and then fall into a dream state and see where that takes you. Because one of the keys I’m convinced is to not have such a divide between our conscious and our subconscious. How do you take that down? Wow! And you can control and play within that. You can play. You talk about fun. Oh my goodness. You will be ecstatic. All night and then all day. Because ultimately you’ll come to realize it’s all a dream. Alright am I a man dreaming he’s a butterfly? Am I a butterfly dreaming he’s a man?

[41:00] Tod Perry: I think we’ll leave with that, I think that’s a perfect note to end on. See, Joe, Dr. Carl Totton, thank you so much for joining me here today. Thank you. Alright. Perion Twitter, ah, @TodAPerry. Now, don’t follow leaders and watch your parking meters.

[42:00] [Music]

We open the show speculating whether some of the greatest minds of the last century were secretly Taoists. Later, Dr. Totton teaches the basics of starting a meditation practice, and we end with a breakdown of Chapter Three of the Tao Te Ching.

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Episode Transcript

[00:00] [Music]

[00:30] Tod Perry: You’re listening to What’s This Tao All About? A lighthearted look at Taoism, featuring Dr. Carl Totton and Tod Perry. Carl is the founder of the Taoist Institute in North Hollywood, California. Tod Perry knows a little about Taoism and is mainly here because he owns a few microphones. Now, let’s learn: What’s This Tao All About? Hello everybody and welcome back to What’s This Tao All About? My name is Tod Perry and here is Dr. Carl Totton, Sijo and we’re gonna continue our discussion on the Tao Te Ching today. What we’re gonna talk about our big stuff is chapter 3 of the Tao Te Ching and we’re gonna talk about meditation a bit and we’re gonna open up a little bit. I’m gonna discuss some people throughout history that might have been secret Taoists, some people who have said things that are, I think in line with the Tao, kind of quotes I’ve liked throughout my life. So I’m gonna run these by Carl and see what you think. Excellent. Alright, one of my first things is, it’s a George Bernard Shaw once said that life is not about finding yourself, it’s about creating yourself. Now is that, is that with the Tao? Because the Tao is a lot about finding

[02:00] Dr. Carl Totton: And so the art of finding verses creating, you know, building on to something, not sure. Yeah, you know in a way, it’s like a different way of saying something else. As so much is Tao. Tao, a lot of it has to do with discovering, uncovering what’s already there. Right. And then when you allow that to just manifest naturally to flow and And goes with the flow. Then one is at one with the process of ongoing discovery and creation. And so it’s not in the sense that we are thinking about something and planning it and then experimenting and trying this and trying that and creating something in that manner. It’s a way of uncovering something that has already been laid down. But because we’ve been so busy thinking Planning and scheming and manipulating, we lost it, we didn’t see it. It’s also like the act of creation and destruction is kind of simultaneous. Right? Yeah. And the Tao, everything is both being created, if you will, and being uncreated at the same time. Right. No. No. Every time anything is said or done, it’s there for that moment and then it’s gone. Right. Yeah. It’s gone, wu, where did it go? It’s gone, it happened. It’s like, quick, quick, too late, too late. It’s like, uh, it’s with the Dutch boy with the the wall and there’s a leak in the wall and he puts his finger in the wall and put his finger in the other one and then the other side of the water is coming through and this is not enough fingers and hands to, but that

[04:00] Dr. Carl Totton: Just let it be because if it leaks what we will also do, oh, the water all of the crops and then everybody will be fed. And so sometimes things have to allow space for things to happen and at the same time be mindful that there might be a plan. You might be a bigger picture. And too often, almost always we see things from what position our own narrow perspective. Almost every human being does that.

[04:30] Tod Perry: Unless we actively do something like meditation to counteract that and try to go on to bigger things. We’re gonna get to that in a minute. Meditation. Another great quote I’ve always liked is, life has become immeasurably better once I’ve been forced to stop taking it seriously. By Dr. Hunter S. Thompson. But I like reading Hunter S. Thompson’s work. And it’s very true that I every once in a while I look up around I go, you know, why am I taking life so serious when, you know, it’s fleeting, it’s going to go. I’ll be gone, I’ll be with the dust at a certain point or everything around this that I’m attached to. Life is a joyous experience and not to get too pulled down into the weeds and not

[05:30] Dr. Carl Totton: Walk through it with such heavy feet, I guess. Yes. Every moment is here for just the second. Then it’s gone forever. It’s gone forever. And yet what do we do? We try to cling to those moments. Like it’s a life raft or something. That’s somehow gonna save us. The cling to what happened just the second ago. Our job is to be fully present every moment and then let it go. Why? So that we can welcome

[06:00] Tod Perry: You’re a kid and you’re at like Disneyland or whatever. The whole day like this is just the best perfectest thing ever. And then you have that weird moment where you go, oh no, I’m gonna have to leave Disneyland. And then you don’t enjoy anything. It’s like on Sunday you go, oh I got work tomorrow. I’m at this we’re doing Sunday right now. I might have just ruined my day. But you know, oh man Is the nature of the Tao.

[07:00] Dr. Carl Totton: Something on a previous show we were discussing, I was saying to you, do you think that most people are walking around concerned with the bigger questions of life or asking what why they’re here or the meaning? And I was like, I’m sure people are just not talking about it and you said, no, no, maybe lots of people just kind of aren’t. You know? I agree, I think most people are just busy living their lives. Yeah. But unfortunately

[07:30] Tod Perry: Clinging to moments and trying to create or extend or just adjust or adapt to something that they miss the bigger picture. And often, the old saying you can’t see the forest for the trees are only too true. I found this great, it was like this sheet of notes by the jazz player, Thelonious Monk. Oh yes. And he had this whole thing of notes that he wrote for himself. It was almost like to reflect, you know, to Put himself in the zone when he’s playing music or you know just kind of true you know the true things he learned in life. And one thing he wrote was the inside part of the tune, the bridge you know your big change in the middle of the song is the part that makes the outside sound good. So if he puts in a big a big change in the middle of the song that takes you out of the your normal verse chorus it’s by going way out there The rest of the song then sounds fresh. Yes. It’s almost like I went to Hawaii a few weeks ago and the fact that I got out of my element, I took it way out there and I went to another place, different frame of mind. I came back and I

[08:50] Dr. Carl Totton: appreciated my normal everyday life. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Often by going to the extremes, we absolutely learn to appreciate what we have here in the moment It gives us that sense of dimensionality that makes life seem richer. Right. Yeah. And also by contrast, here in a third dimensional world, in a world that is framed by yin and yang, if you will. It’s by exploring the things that look like their opposites of each other that we come to find the totality of our experience. Ultimately it’s really all one whole existence. We see the forest from the trees. Right. But most human beings, most of us can’t do that type of just being one with the flow and integrating all of the extremes simultaneously, moment by moment without clinging or holding on, few people can really do that. Yeah, no. You would probably become schizophrenic or either that or sage.

[10:00] Tod Perry: What’s This Tao All About? is recorded at the Taoist Institute in North Hollywood, California. Check out the TaoistInstitute.com. See there’s schedule of classes including Taoist meditation, kung fu and qigong. That’s TaoistInstitute.com. Alright, so let’s get into this here.

What is meditation?

Let’s talk a little bit about meditation. And I know you teach meditation classes right here at the Taoist Institute. Oh, yes. Now my big question is I’ve, I’ve, from time to time sat and attempted to meditate. I’ve had a couple positive experiences with it. I haven’t integrated into my daily life. And, and one of the questions I always have is, I feel like there’s different forms of meditation, right? And different ones like there’s like transcendental meditation and you gotta pay 1500 bucks to learn it. And I always go, is that a scam or is it, you know, why don’t they just make this available to everybody? You know, why don’t they reveal their secret, you know?

[11:30] Dr. Carl Totton: You want? Oh great, yeah. That’s awesome. Just on tell anyone. Yeah. Our little secret. This is how publicly now come. So is there a better way in order to say what is the difference in the different forms of meditation, if you will? Or is it just all the same thing that people are calling different? No, it is an all just the same thing. People have been trying to kind of solve this riddle about who am I, And where am I going? In other words, what is the meaning of life? And almost everyone, sooner or later comes to the realization that all of this doing and trying and thinking and thinking and overthinking is taking me away from realizing this essence of what is the meaning of my life. And so sooner or later, people around the world for thousands of years have realized that unless I sit quietly And so all cultures and peoples and spiritual groups have at one point or another come to the realization that they have to alter something about what they’ve been doing. It’s in the doing and overdoing and overthinking while overdoing where we get lost. So I think that ultimately meditation is really a very natural state. It’s what happens before we start doing. It’s what happens before we start talking and thinking. And our thinking of course is always in what? Words, right? And words as we know, words are a representation of something, they’re not the thing. And so meditation is to try to get to the thing.

How do you meditate?

[13:30] Dr. Carl Totton: And so if you’re talking and thinking too much, it’s going to be very difficult to realize the nature of what underlies our existence. And so that’s what meditation is for. Now, there are 100 ways about knowing more than that, a thousand ways to actually try to do that. Essentially, meditation can be divided in general into active forms of meditation and more Passive forms of meditation. Active forms of meditation, you do something. Maybe you chant something. Maybe you focus on something. It might be something even very peaceful like focusing on a cloud drifting across the sky or a river flowing down the stream. But so something grabs your attention and as something grabs our attention and we begin to follow that, track that, guess what happens? As that immersion increases the internal chatter that self-talk does to decrease. I could use that. Yes, we can all use that. So that’s actually very useful. So that’s active. That’s active meditation. Because you’re doing something in order to decrease our attachment to what we usually do. Which is doing and thinking and planning and on and on and on. Okay. What’s your…it’s actually probably more difficult. You know, is it more rewarding because it’s more difficult? Not necessarily. You know what they say? All roads lead to Beijing or Hong Kong or Rome or someplace, right? So, however one gets there, it’s fine. As long as you get…again, return to the source. Okay. So passive forms of meditation, it’s more difficult because sometimes people will tell you what, I’m sure

[15:30] Dr. Carl Totton: of nothing but who can do that? I’ve thought of nothing like four times in my life. And then I go, I’m thinking about nothing. Right. And so typically what is easier for people is to think about something different than what they ordinarily are thinking about. So again, it might be a word, it might be a breath. You know what I tell people to do? What’s going on in your mind right now? Oh, okay, that’s interesting. Now, look at that. Watch those thoughts. And while you’re watching those thoughts, what’s going on in your body right now? Notice that too. Don’t think about it. Just notice it. Oh, how about your breath? You notice that? Oh, okay, just notice that. So, as you sit here and you’re noticing your mind and you’re noticing your body and you’re noticing your breath, what part I don’t know. Great. Now, just stay with that experience and just see where that takes you. And now I’ll put on some nice music. I’ll turn out the lights. I have a black light here. I’ll put on black light and it looks kind of mysterious and kind of kind of, no it’s really soft in there. And what happens is that people get so engaged in this exercise and really mindfulness. You know, being able to not be In your body, in your breath, but rather coming from a place where you are all of these things simultaneously without having to divide and separate them. At that moment, an amazing thing happens. We stop thinking. You might realize, I know this has happened to you. Haven’t you been driving sometimes on the freeway and you noticed that, gosh, I just drove the last

[17:30] Dr. Carl Totton: 10 miles and I didn’t have one thought in my mind about driving. Yes. It’s the same thing in meditation. How did I get here? How did I get here? Why am I in the valley? Like I was in the valley. I switched lanes, I avoided cars obviously, I drove the speed limit, I wasn’t bumping into people, I didn’t drive off the road and I did not have one thought about driving. The same thing happens in

[18:00] Tod Perry: You can just be. Right. It’s beautiful. So, about let’s see. So if I wanted to kind of start going towards that place, just by myself, at my house, you know, maybe woke up in the morning, had a cup of coffee, and then I get ready to go to work and I want to take this 20 minutes to get to that state. What are the kind of real simple ways to get into that? I always talk people,

How to learn meditation

[18:30] Dr. Carl Totton: Natural state. I think a lot of what we do and say and think all the time is really quite unnatural. Okay. Alright. And so there’s something that pervades that, that’s beneath that and above that and beyond all of that. Something that just is. Right. And so the easiest way. That’s the easiest way. You know, my teacher taught me when I, the first day of meditation, my Taoist teacher, he said, just said and Observe your breathing. Feel the air come in. Feel the air come out. Just notice that. Just watch that. And as I watch that and then began to just watch my thoughts and watch my body. Maybe I had some imagery in my mind. Maybe I was remembering something and event. Do you try to then stop that or do you just let it play out? You just watch it. You just observe it. You don’t participate in it. You just let And now you’re back to square one. You’re out of it. You’re out of it because you’re too into it. Right. Okay. So it’s a matter of this. It’s interesting because on one hand, people always say that to meditate, you have to do what? You have to focus. You have to concentrate. You hear that all the time. It’s a brilliant experience. And when that will kill meditation

[20:00] Tod Perry: Cold for me.

[20:30] Dr. Carl Totton: Ultimately, we’ll be capable of. It takes a while, just like anything else. It took you a while to learn how to ride a bike, drive a car. Anything. And it’s the same thing. But once you’ve kind of groove that pathway into this deeper aspect of the self, it definitely becomes easier and easier. And you know what? You like it. Because you like it, you want to do it more. So so much better than Dorfins in my brain. Why do I not do this every day? But at first it does what? It’s a pain. It hurts. It hurts. I walk up a trepago. Oh my sore back. This is gonna hurt. We actually move into a state of what’s often called pure awareness, where a whole other world opens up inside of us. Busy doing those other things, there’s an entire dimension of experience that will miss. That will miss. That is in everyone. It’s in every human being. It’s in a we’re all part of the Tao. One spirit. And so the Tao being vast, having no beginning, having no end, existing on all dimensions throughout time and space, can you imagine? No, you can’t imagine. It’s beyond our imagination. How much there, how rich and how deep this experience of this domain actually contains. Okay. And so meditation, every time we do it, we’re allowed entry into another, another little corner of experience in that realm. And it is so rich and so nurturing that it’s like tasting pure honey years. Right. It’s so sweet. I love it. Okay. So I was reading a book and it was,

[22:30] Tod Perry: See, this is me. I read all these books, right? But the practice and the discipline of the practice, it alludes me. But it was a book called, Catching the Big Fish by a filmmaker, David Lynch. And he was saying that when he… Oh, he’s good. Yeah. When he started meditating, he realized as a creative person that the big fish were at the deeper levels, the big fish, the big ideas, that he And he was working and bringing into his art. He would meditate and the deeper he got, the bigger and more nurturing the fish were. Is what he said when he would dip into it. And I thought that was a wonderful metaphor for what I should strive for when attempting this

[23:20] Dr. Carl Totton: practice. So, what’s the best time to meditate is it in the morning at night? Anytime. Anytime. I mean, everybody’s, you know, their lives are different They have zugging things to do and they don’t have time and so the evening or night before they go to bed is a better time. You know, ultimately, I think we want to get to the point where meditation is not this separate experience where we have to, it’s only when we’re sitting down doing meditation that we are engaging in meditation. We would like meditation to just become part of our natural, normal state of being. Because that’s what meditation is It’s a state of expanded awareness, awareness of what? Awareness of what is? Well, what is? Well, you’ll know when you find it. Ah, that’s a nice way to go out on it. Do you have any more words on meditation? Just that don’t complicate it. It’s very simple. And our tendency, particularly here in the West, is to complicate things. And you’ll find books and books and books and things Written on how to meditate. And there’s all these different ways and so a seeker can get very easily confused. Yes. Because every many of the books say something very different. But if we remember that meditation is a natural state and it’s a state of immersion into what is. Because a lot of what we’re doing is an avoidance of not doing and meditation is definitely associated with not doing.

[25:00] Tod Perry: We’re doing less. Doing less. The minimal of us. Yeah. Because when you get to zero, where you’re not doing anything, then you can finally live and be everything. Is it kind of like if you look at an hourglass, right? You have the stuff at the top of the hourglass and they have that real thin waste, right? And then you have a different thing on the other side. Where we’re normally on the top of the hour

[25:30] Dr. Carl Totton: That there’s a whole other vessel of consciousness or whatever it is. Is it like that? At that moment we are fully in tune and in touch with the Tao and we are just filled with inspiration. It’s almost like a download from the field of consciousness, a field that we are part of but because we’re so busy, we’re not aware of it. Once we let go of those expectations and just immerse ourselves, In the Tao, the richness of that fills every moment. And at that moment, those questions, those eternal questions, who am I? Where did I come from? Why am I here? And where am I going? The answers become crystal clear. And that’s precious. You can’t buy that.

What does chapter 3 of the Tao Te Ching mean?

Let’s move on to The chapter of the Tao Te Ching today. We’re gonna do chapter 3 of the Tao Te Ching. Who’s a meditative existence? Not just a practice, but a meditative existence as a prescription for living wisely. And so in chapter three, it’s very short, almost all of them are, is he says not exalting the gifted prevents quarrelling, not collecting treasures prevents stealing, not seeing desirable things, prevents confusion of the heart.

[27:30] Dr. Carl Totton: What’s he talking about here? And then he goes on and he says, the wise, therefore, rule by emptying hearts and stuffing bellies. By weakening ambitions and strengthening bones. If people lack knowledge and desire, then intellectuals will not try to interfere. If nothing is done, then all will be well. So this letting go of attachment from the heart or the mind while focusing on essentials like health, eating, right? right. allows things to kind of just settle into place and define their own innate rhythms. You know, every organism has a rhythm and the rhythm is trying to do what is trying to ensure survival. Through adaptation to create homeostasis, balance. And if we can do that then everything just flows and everything is beautiful and everything is fine. But look around. Is everything just flowing? Is everything just beautiful? And is everything just fine? No. And therefore things since so much is being done that is not in a course. Or with our inner natures, people aren’t feeling what they need. They’re feeling that what they’re doing is meaningless. Or has a meaning maybe to someone, some things, some outside entity but not to them. It’s not the heart’s desire. Then they wind up feeling dissatisfied. No matter how much money they’re making, you know, no matter how much of the material external rewards they may be getting, they’ll at a deep level.

[29:30] Dr. Carl Totton: If you ask them they will tell you something is missing. I feel like I’m just spending my wheels. And yeah I’m doing everything that everybody says I should be doing. And there’s nothing is gaining traction. It’s not, you know, it’s not amounting to anything besides you know, paying the rent. Yeah, and life is a lot more than going to work and paying your bills. Yes. I assure you. And so he says if people lack So we’ll not try to interfere. If nothing is done, then all will be well. Now the intellectuals trying to interfere. What is that relate to? Well, there are always people in every society who try to guide what people are doing by claiming that they know best. The intellectuals. The intellectuals. Often it’s politicians, critics, who are offering critiques about society. I’m sure people would call him a big thinker in a way but yet he’s constantly advising us to do what? Not think, right? Not think so much. And so here maybe the biggest thinker of them all is saying don’t think. And what was the very first thing out of his mouth in the Tao Te Ching? The Tao that can be spoke with. And is not the eternal Tao. Right. And what are our thoughts? Words. Words. Right. So the very first words out of his mouth are don’t trust this. Right. Don’t trust this. And don’t trust the authorities that are trying to tell you how to live your life. Exactly. Yeah. Exactly. Trying to push you one way or the other. Exactly. There’s so many levels of abstraction away from the immediacy of what he taught.

[31:30] Dr. Carl Totton: Person is experiencing. And every person has to be the arbiter of their own experience. Nobody else can tell you what you are experiencing, what you should be experiencing, what you’re thinking, what you should be thinking, what you’re doing, what you should be doing. Nobody has that authority to do that, unless you give it to them. Unless you give it to them. And unfortunately, if you look at the history of the world, what do we see? People are very willing to give up to the author. And then authorities are more than willing to try to take control through power and manipulation in order to attain more material goods. Or even worse power over others. Power over others so they can increase their gain of material goods. And so now look at the world. We’re in a crisis. We’re in environmental crisis. We’re in economic crises. We’re certainly in political crisis. It’s sad in many, many respects to see how far away we’ve gotten from this self-regulation, this homeostasis, this balance, we’re all organisms, especially us, getting our needs met and we’re filled and creative. It’s about creativity. You know, I tell everybody, the most important thing that you have is your imagination. Because think about it for me. And this fuels it, I feel. Yeah, I agree. Because if you look at human history, has not every advance come through imagination. Yes. Every single thing. We thought being the caves, right? We didn’t have imagination. If someone didn’t look out there and go, you know what? We could do

[33:30] Dr. Carl Totton: Fish was cooked. Yeah, right, yang. See, it allows us to creatively meet our needs in a fuller manner. And by unleashing greater creativity, you’re gonna unleash a greater more creative, you know, better society. Yes, for us. Yes, it’s a living. So I’m advocating for what? A new Renaissance. Yes. We need a new Renaissance. Right, yeah. A creative liberation. Yeah, the creative liberation of the human spirit I’ll take up a banner and wave it behind you. It’s like be free, be free. But to do that we have to claim and own our freedom. And too often society conspires to get us to subvert our freedom. To give up our freedom. I think it’s a natural state of having it subverted to begin with and then realizing it later in life. You know, not to say that I’ve come to some great point. I’ve completely gotten, you know, gotten, become liberated from all the structures around me. But I’m just saying, yeah, you do get to a certain point where you see the matrix. Yes. You know, you see the cage that you’re in and then you realize two things. One, number one, I’m in a cage. Somehow I’m restricting my life. I’m constricting and restricting my life. I’m in a cage. Now, where And most important, who has the key? And is it some force out there? Is it somebody else? Did I give somebody else the power to confine me? And therefore my liberation is dependent on them, some external authority or some intellectual or better and worse at the same time that I lock myself in this cage. And I’ve got the key and I’m not liberating myself.

[35:30] Tod Perry: Oh my goodness. What do I do to myself? I mean with the moment you see that, you go, oh no now I have a response to my self to enact that to fully unlock that cage. 100% responsibility to do that. That’s daunting. That is very scary. Scary for me, I think it’s probably scary for most people.

[36:00] Dr. Carl Totton: This writing is like the Tao Te Ching. Really is to ultimately give each human being courage that there are other people who have gone down this path, down this road and we know how difficult it is and we support you. You’re not crazy to think that you want to get out of your cage and be real. That’s great and we support that. Wonderful. You’re not alone. Yes. So do we have any takeaways for this week? Tickle stuff that people can get into before our show comes out next week. Things to think about. Well, I always like to give a practice, of course. Yes. Because practice makes perfect. Yes. And so a nice exercise is to simply notice what you have in your life that you personally are grateful for. Every day, every day you should get up and think. Hmm. What do I have to be great for people? For Rather than the lack of abundance. Because when you’re feeling lack, you tend to attract what you’re feeling. So you’ll just attract more lack. And number two, you’ll never be satisfied. You’ll never be satisfied. You have to choose to be satisfied. So just appreciation of the simple things, synthesizes us to the natural beauty of life as it is. Just as it is.

[38:00] Dr. Carl Totton: At the sunrise, how about the smile on a baby’s face? The gracefulness of a cloud, the sound of a court of music, the taste of good food. All of these little appreciations bring joy to life and went overlooked because we’re pursuing the big things, then life tends to lose its vitality and we wind up feeling frustrated and unsatisfied. Let go and let it be. Just let it be what it is.

[38:30] Tod Perry: You’re like it! Awesome, well, for this week it’s time to let it be and we’re gonna let this show be for right now and we’ll be back next week with more What’s This Tao All About and preview for next week’s show. Now we’ll just let you see what happens. We’ll talk you soon. Thank you.

[38:56] Tod Perry: To learn more about the show, check us out online at WhatsThisTao.com. Akan, Fall The Show on Twitter at What’s This Tao? Follow Tod Perry on Twitter at @TodAPerry. Now, don’t follow leaders and watch your parking readers.

[39:30] [Music]

Recently, Tod got stuck riding the bus to work, prompting a discussion on social status and how it relates to the Tao. Later, we get into a conversation on the Taoist principal of Yin and Yang. This week’s Tao Te Ching reading is from chapter 8.

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Episode Transcript

[00:00] [Music]

[00:30] Tod Perry: What’s This Tao All About? A lighthearted look at Taoism featuring Dr. Carl Totton and Tod Perry. Carl is the founder of the Taoist Institute in North Hollywood, California. Tod Perry knows a little about Taoism and it’s mainly here because he owns a few microphones. Now let’s learn: What’s This Tao All About? The other day, my boss at work, we have a very kind of small parking lot and he hit my car. I have like a Nissan Versa, I don’t know, it’s not. My car goes unnoticed in this world. You don’t look at it and go, alright, that’s terrible. How does he get to work every day? I had to go wild that guy spent $100,000 in the car. It moves through life unnoticed, my Nissan Versa. But it got hit so I had to keep it in the shop for like five days. So I live in Long Beach for the people listening, I live in Long Beach and my work is in Marina del Rey, which takes me about an hour and 10 minutes to get to work every day, which is very frustrating. So I had no car and I said, do you know what, my boss, he writes my paycheck, I’m not going to hit him up for getting me a rental or whatever. I’ll just take public transportation, which in LA, we don’t have the best public transportation system. So I would have my wife dropped me off at the Blue Line train, then I’d take it to the Green Line, and then I would take the bus to the office. So this would take an hour and 40 minutes every morning for me to get to work. So I get into work and I’ll talk to how’d you get into work today, you know, have your car. And I said, oh, you know, I took two trains and a bus and it’s like the looks you get in West Los Angeles saying, oh, I took the bus because it’s almost like a status thing where if you write the bus, And it’s like low class or you know, kind of thing and I thought I like not to brag but I like the fact I developed in myself and I think through the Tao reading about the Tao about how water, I think we’re gonna get to that chapter later in the book about how water resides in the lowest of places. And that water nourishes everything and that water is kind of without status and it asks for nothing from anything. And I thought that from the I’m trying to remove any sense of status from myself that I could again get to work where other people might have had a block and thinking, oh, that’s, you know, only poor people ride the bus in LA or whatever. And, uh, that to me, it gave me freedom and not having to abide by a status. And, like, I was like, I would love to as a human being exist as a statusless being that I could walk into a room and, uh, you know, if I was the richest man in the world no one would know, or if I was dirt poor no one would know. And it may try to not communicate my status to others and just kind of be myself. And but we, there’s so much pressure I feel on people to have that nice car or to have that, you know, not a functional car necessarily. And it’s almost like I look at it and I see the guy with the nice car and go, wow, that’s just just way too much effort to be trying to impress your status upon me. But I think that the Tao and understanding of that helps remove people from that kind of cycle

[04:07] Dr. Carl Totton: in a healthy way. You know, I think something that we were kind of speaking about earlier reminds me of that too. I already told you that often children and people, you know, so-called people who live a very simple life seem to be very content. Yeah, very happy with their existence. You know, the everyday they’re living pretty much to the full fullness. And yet they have by our standards wrote into a little, yeah, maybe nothing, you know, they don’t have a car, they don’t have a, you know, 60 inch TV. I’m sure they don’t have a computer. Yeah. But yet they’re content. Believe me, in my journeys and some of the things I’ve done, I’ve met people who are worth many, many, many millions of dollars. Yeah. I’ve met people who. Their films have so over a billion dollars worth of. theater tickets. Yeah. I’ve been some people that I’ve met and even taught and interacted with in one level or another. Having more and more and more does not lead to content. Yeah. Being contented in life. Yeah. It just means we have more stuff. They’ve been responsible for. That’s how it’s a game. What’s the saying, the movie Fight Club, what you own owns you? I was just as happy as I am now having a mortgage. Right, right. That’s why I said that the Taoist knows when they have enough. Enough is gonna vary from one person to the next, but I think a lot of our notions about what we should, quote, should, have, come from the media and it comes from media-fueled expectations about what the good life is. You know, and so if you’re watching TV and you’re watching, you know, the housewives of Orange County or the Housewives of New York or New Jersey or whatever it is, you’re going, oh, or the Keeping Up with the Kardashians or something. Oh, this is what happiness is, right? Yeah. Yeah, so I have a life like that. Yeah. You really think those people are really happy? No, that’s it. There’s really. And we play that. The media is kind of selling the lifestyle because people want to, you know, fantasize about that. But the same time the people are screaming at it, so the whole thing.

[07:03] Tod Perry: I don’t know if my wife watches like the real housewives and that’s, I say honey, you just watch people in expensive shoes scream at each other for a half hour. She’s like, oh, I love it. I don’t. I watch trashy TV all the time myself, but like that brand of it, I can’t. I’m like, this just annoying.

[07:22] Dr. Carl Totton: But, and so I think our expectations, again, it goes back to who are you? Who are you really? And what do you really need in order to feel that your life? Would you count your money? Would you go buy another car? What would you do? I guarantee you not one person will spend their last hours doing anything that has to do with acquiring more. Not one. Not one. Most people will want to be with the people who they love and care for the most. Some people will want to sit and meditate or pray to be in touch with their God or however they see what gives them spiritual comfort. And so if these are the things that really matter, shouldn’t we maybe create space for these things? Right, yeah.

[08:46] Tod Perry: in our lives, maybe? Yes. And that’s been so much time kind of like a rat in a cage just running around faster,

[08:53] Dr. Carl Totton: faster, kind of spinning our wheels. And I think that this notion of water in the Tao, like you said, everything’s on level. In fact, the low level tends to settle to we are what, 70, 75% water. I think our brains are more like 85% water. And so we need to learn, I think, how to allow this notion of how water adapts to any environment that it’s in. It naturally folds itself around in anything, any container that it’s in. Any obstacle, it just naturally goes around it over it under it. Yet we tend to try to fight for things. We tend to get some things in the way we want to just break it. We’re constantly striving for more and more. And yet when we get it, we’re still not happy. So we think that since I got this and I wasn’t happy, I must need more. We don’t get it. We don’t get it. Even though life is teaching us every second, that’s That’s not the way. It’s not the answer. And yet we don’t listen to our own experience. The Tao is, again, it’s just nagging little voice over your shoulder going, listen to yourself. You know, should you believe your own lying eyes? I was thinking the other day. There’s always all this talk about, you know, why in America we have so much kind of violence. Like if you go to Canada, you go there and your chances of being shot by somebody in Canada is, you know, on a 1-100 of.

[11:40] Tod Perry: You don’t have to say it, and it leads to a violent culture. I think you’re right. I think it’s part of it. I think it’s a multi-faceted complex issue. Yes violence in America. Violence in the world. Violence in humanity’s nature in fact. It’s the same violence as we could spend, I’m sure 100 shows talking about violence. Yeah, so just that. Yeah, yeah. I’ve got a lot to Part of it is that for sure. And in alignment with that is the fact that our society, Western society, especially in America, the disparity between the haves and the have-nots is increasing. It’s huge now. It used to be less. And a lot of these other countries that you mentioned, it’s much less. And in fact, there have been studies that show that the wider the disparity between the top and the bottom

[12:40] Dr. Carl Totton: The bigger that gets in any society, the more social dysfunctions you have. Violence, prisons, drugs, teenage pregnancy, high school dropouts. I mean you just list almost any kind of societal ill and the more there’s this disparity, meaning that there’s less harmony in a society. Because some people are having it all. And a very comfortable life and other people having to struggle and struggle and work harder and harder for less and less. This creates tensions and tensions result in something. Something has to happen. Something’s got to give. Something’s gonna blow up. And too often yang things are literally blowing up. And bodies are dropping and blood is being spilled. And so I think that remember the Taoist knows when they have enough.

[13:40] Tod Perry: And let me ask you something. Have you ever just given something to someone not with expecting nothing in return, maybe a child, maybe a homeless person, maybe someone sick or handicapped, ya know, just people who have less than you and you helped them out. I’m sure you have and what do that feel like? Oh, it feels wonderful. I almost don’t want it to feel good in a weird way because I feel like that then it becomes a selfish act. If I do something for somebody and then I feel good about it, I almost feel like if I do it it should be completely selfless and I should almost not like doing it because then it’s not a selfish act.

[14:18] Dr. Carl Totton: No, it’s okay. It’s okay because I’m just a guilty human being. Maybe so. No, I think the idea of giving without expecting anything in return is important. But the fact that you get just joy out of other people’s enjoyment and happiness, that to me is just being a good human being. Right. Okay. That’s okay. Empathy. Empathy. Empathy for others. And remember, I told you one of my Taoist teachers, that’s what he said. He said that by being curious, we want to know what other things, the other people are like. And when we find out, we can relate to them with empathy and compassion. And it cultivates it because your curiosity for your fellow man cultivates your empathy. Yes. And then once you know them, understand them and understand that really they’re very much just like we are. Right. They have the same blood. They have the same desires and thoughts and feelings and emotions. They’re much more like us then different. Then we can relate to them compassionately with empathy, whereas the more different we see people as the more violence there is in society. And if people are, if we really see them as being nothing like us at all, then we demonize them and we tend to want to kill them. Right, yeah, look around. Very easy, yeah. Very easy to kill something that you see as being not like you. Yes, definitely. Look around the world. Right,

What does yin and yang mean in Taoism?

[15:48] Tod Perry: So do we have a really big topic here on the show I want to get to? That’s the Taoist concept of yin and yang. And again we could probably do 400 shows on yin and yang, correct? But this is a huge concept in the Tao. Now to back it up a little bit is the Tao, the first place where the concept of yin and yang stems from or was it in other Chinese thought?

[16:54] Dr. Carl Totton: There actually was an earlier school, literally called the yin and yang school in China, from which Tao borrowed. So some of these notions were floating around in various places and then they were consolidated within Taoism. And some later it became consolidated in the 5th century common era in China, Zen Buddhism, which is kind of a marriage of some traditional Buddhist notions with Taoist notions in China. And so ideas borrow from each other. And since we’re talking about universal laws, that should be seen as natural. That it would occur. Yeah, it just allowed to, you know, made up this stuff and say, oh that sounds good. And Taoism has always been seen as a philosophy and then later a spiritual religious system, which is in touch with nature. Taoists look at nature as we have said before and notice that the sun rises and then the sun falls. We have a daytime, we have a nighttime. We get up in the morning, wake up, we’re energized, we do things, but then we have to go back to see how we can get into the sun. Sleep, doing nothing, letting go, not doing, allows you to therefore be able to create the energy to do. And so these states are complementary. They aren’t really the opposite of each other. Now, language, right, wrong, good, bad, yes, no. Are language forces us often into these dichotomous states, which are not really true. That’s not true. We think they’re true, but and that’s therein lies the problem. The problem is between our years. We’re thinking. Because we’re thinking in very limited linguistic structure that forces us to choose between this and that. It’s almost the things we used to define the 10,000 things are incorrect. It imprisons us very often. It’s almost like if you could go back and recreate language. In the English language, rather language, maybe Chinese gets closer to these concepts than English possibilities. Because it’s using pictograms, right? Using images. Whereas we’re actually trying to use words that stand for other things. Words that mean something, Heels. You know, the father of General Semantics, Krasibsky wrote an amazing book called Science and Sanity in 1930s. Brilliant book, one of the best books I think of as really as being kind of the Western Tao Te Ching. Okay. Okay. Science and Sanity. Where he’s saying this very same thing about the limitations of language and how language forces us to separate yin and yang into these dichotomous categories that are actually not true And so coming from a Taoist perspective where we’re trying to harmonize yin and yang, I think requires us to pause, not do, wait, and at the same time to take in the entirety of things on levels that transcend and go beyond words and language. Language is, I mean, it’s our medium of communication, we, most of us, we don’t know telepathy, right? And can’t just communicate non-verbally, but yet, think about some of the more profound moments that you’ve had with people that you really love, perhaps your wife. I bet you don’t have to say a word very often, they have the most profound experience with her. If you have a decent relationship and I hope you do, I know that has to be true. Yes, yes. Look at each other’s eyes and smile and you said things that can’t be said. The subtlety and the inflection of how she says my name can mean a thousand, there’s Todd, and there’s Todd, and there’s a billion different ways to communicate so much. Exactly. Exactly. And I think that this notion of yin and yang, it gives us the freedom to be open to that level of experience. And also, I think equally as important, is that things happen in their own way and in their own time and for a reason that we don’t always see at the very beginning. And often we will label something as, oh, this is unpleasant, this is negative, this is bad. When actually that is just part of a cycle of something that is in the process of becoming, and in order for us to appreciate this, whatever it is, and its totality, we had to have this initial period of discomfort. for yeah unpleasantness Something that we might label as not good or even bad. When actually in the long run, it’s actually which is part of the natural unfolding of things as they are. And a lot depends on how you look at things too. Two different people, much less a million different people. We’ll look at the exact same thing and come to completely different conclusions about it. You know the old saying one man’s meat is another man’s poison.

[23:19] Tod Perry: And what’s good and nurturing for you might be very toxic and out of balance for somebody else. It’s like you’re talking about vitality and health. We’re off mic, we were discussing and the personal humors in one’s body, react to things, fortunately or unfortunately, health should be taken on a personal basis. I was thinking, what are the individual characteristics of yin and yang?

[23:49] Dr. Carl Totton: Yeah, some of the notions associated with yin are receiving passive, again, being receptive, being the night, being cool, more towards the feminine, if you will, the gentle, the being open to things. Yang, more the active, More of the dominant, more of the projected, more of the warmer, hotter, again more activity, the masculine way of approaching things, if you will. And much of the Tao is about, yin and yang, of course it’s about seeing these things as not as opposites of each other. For example, could you really just have men without having a woman? No. Without having some notion of heat in there somewhere? No. Does a day make any sense without a night, some kind of co-create each other. And in Chinese medicine that’s very much so. They actually will tell you that if you study Chinese medicine, then these things intermingle and co-create each other. And if you take one to the extreme, for example, if you get too hot, you get feverish. What happens to you after a while? You’re completely collapsed. You go right to the other side. You become total yin. You can’t even get out of bed. You need fluids. And then the other hand, if you don’t eat and you just have nothing but a weakness and you just become so destitute in terms of nutrition and water and everything else that you just start to kind of wither away, you’ll get a horrible fever, your whole body So So it’s a natural law of nature and we violate natural laws of nature to our peril.

[26:37] Tod Perry: It’s interesting that man is from nature, right? So man is natural or whatever, but can act outside of nature, right? Very much so. You know, like my dog is always doing something, you know, it’s weird that man’s inner nature can violate the basic rules of nature. Figure we just all work together, right?

[27:02] Dr. Carl Totton: And I think that’s what Lao Tzu was really getting at because he came up in a time where the Chinese were having so-called warring states, there was disharmony, war, violence, everywhere. And he’s going, you know, you guys are blowing it here. Look at this. This is the way farmers should relate to their fields. This is the way emperors should relate to their constituency, you know, by not doing, by not imposing, by being almost invisible. In fact, that was the best leader, was the one who was the most invisible, but yet everything got taken care of, right?

[27:41] Tod Perry: Right, yeah, yeah. You know, there was nothing to fight against.

[27:45] Dr. Carl Totton: And when you’re not in the fight against, then you can just meet your needs. Right. Right. And so yin and yang, I think is a it’s a way for us to kind of check in with ourselves every day and say, where is the balance and harmony in my life? Am I overdoing something, am I leaving something important out? Am I missing something? And if I’m putting in X amount of energy over here, in order to

[29:15] Dr. Carl Totton: You have one side and the other. There’s no wholeness there. And when there’s no wholeness there’s no harmony. There’s by definition there’s disharmony. And when you have disharmony you have problems. You have problems. You have to have your problem. You have to have your problem. You have to have your problem. You have problems.

What does Chapter 8 of the Tao Te Ching mean?

[29:45] Tod Perry: The Supreme Good is like water, which nourishes all things without trying to. It flows to low places loathed by all men. Therefore, it is like the Tao. Live in accordance with the nature of things, and dwelling, be close to the land. In meditation, go deep to the hearts. In dealing with others, be gentle and kind. Stand by your word, govern with equity, be timely in choosing the right moment, one who lives in accordance with nature, does not go against the way of things. He moves in harmony with the present moment, always knowing the And the truth of just what to do. The highest good is like water. Water gives life to the 10,000 things and does not strive. It flows in places men reject and so is like the Tao. Very humble. And dwelling be close to the land. In meditation go deep in the heart. In dealing with others be gentle and kind. In speech, be true. In ruling, be just. And business be competent. In action, watch the timing. No fight, no blame. Wow. So the highest good is like water. So is that that’s. There’s an element of that I was talking about status earlier. And it’s almost like, you know, put on some robes and walk the earth, right?

[32:09] Dr. Carl Totton: But everything has to also seek its own nature and everything on this we’re a water planet, right? Yeah. We’re water planet. But as that chapter states, the water doesn’t blame, it doesn’t judge. It gives everything exactly what it needs. The acorn needs a certain amount in type of water. The. The huge oak tree needed something else. The birds and the bees and the cats and the dogs, they needed that water as well. Yeah. Right. So everything sort. Everything kind of. Went to this well. This. Common Source and Drink, it’s full and received exactly what it needed. But yet every single thing became its own unique self. Right, yeah. But yet it came from the same source. But yet everything became completely different and unique and creative. Isn’t that interesting? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Isn’t that fascinating. The Tao is like that. We should be like that. If we were like water, we would be more like that. And so this is a I think it’s a reminder because we are water and we have to drink water, you can get by without food and you can buy a lot of things but you cannot live without water. You cannot. You will wither up and dry up and die soon if you don’t have water. And if you don’t have what? What comes out of this interaction? Air, right? Air, oxygen, right? Even quicker you’ll die.

[34:26] Dr. Carl Totton: What is yin and what is yang? Well, sun is definitely yang because it’s hot, right? Right. And it’s penetrating. Yeah. And it’s the heat. And water, since it’s in its natural state, it’s cool, right? It’s soft, it’s nurturing, it’s buoyant and enveloping, right? It’s very yin. Okay. It’s like the mother. It’s the mother. And the sun Voila, we have life, we have life, we have life. And we need, and that energy of this yang energy and this yin energy through that dynamic balance relationship, all things can move to their fullest nature. Everything can become what they are. And that is the ultimate way of the Tao, everything becomes what it is. And the action of the Tao is to return.

[35:53] Tod Perry: We have to be in harmony. I think we need to dwell on the land. Now, in modern society, what does that mean?

[36:04] Dr. Carl Totton: I tell all my students and all my clients that they have to be in harmony. I tell them to be in harmony. I tell them They need to do this. They need to take time out and return to the land. Because they’re literally are things, energies that you cannot get any other way. You know, Chinese, the Taoist and Chinese medicine, they spend a lot of time talking about chi, about energy. And there is an energy that comes out of the earth and being close to the earth, literally having your feet on the earth that you really can’t get any other way. And if you don’t get that, then our body has to do what? It has to make up for it somehow, often by leaching something from someplace else, if not really supposed to. And so in dwelling, be close to the land, follow nature. I think it’s another way of saying being in harmony with nature, Taoism being a nature philosophical system. And and Lao Tzu and the yin-yang school before him, all the ancient Taoists looked at water, looked at wind looked at the sun. And he said that the birds looked at the seasons of life, right? Spring, summer, winter. They saw these natural patterns coming out of the earth, out of the land. And they felt that if we could live in harmony with that, then we would also reach our fullest inner nature as well. Right. Right. And you’d have less conflict. Yeah. And look at most of the conflicts around the world. Doesn’t have something to do with people wanting to That’s what’s happening. You’re right. We’re depleting the purity of the land, the water, the air, the ozone.

[38:20] Tod Perry: When you move out of harmony with nature, you lead towards your own destruction. Ultimately, it’s stupid because you’re killing yourself. But we’re doing a lot of people don’t realize that. I know. I know. So it boggles my mind that we don’t realize that, yeah, you made another billion dollars, but you just took 100 years off of our life span. Right. Yeah. the Earth’s life. So at the end of the day, what’s it worth? What’s it worth? What was your extra billion dollars worth? Nothing. I think that’s a good place to wrap up today.

[39:01] Dr. Carl Totton: The Tao is about life and death, life and death. And by living in harmony with nature, we can live a full life and have a death that comes when it was supposed to come, and not because we lived out of harmony with nature and violated the law, the natural law, and wound up killing ourselves. Much less our planet.

[39:28] Tod Perry: Yeah. Well, thank you. Dr. Carl Totton. Thank you, thank you. And we’ll see you guys on show four. All right. To learn more about the show, check us out online at whatsthistao.com. Follow Tod Perry on Twitter at @TodAPerry. Now, don’t follow leaders and watch your parking meters. Wow. Really? Bye.

In this episode, Tod and Dr. Totton explore how being busy for the sake of being busy can be a detriment to being connected to the Great Tao. They also try to uncover the secrets of wu-wei, or the Taoist art of acting without doing.

The conversation also dives into Chapter 2 of the Tao Te Ching, where beauty and ugliness, having and not having, and action and stillness arise together. 

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Episode Transcript

[00:00] [Music]

How to slow down and stop being so busy

[00:29] Tod Perry: We’re in the episode two here. We don’t have a name yet for the show, but it will appear in the credits of the show. So we will know the show that cannot be named like the Tao Te Ching. So, uh, Sijo? Yes. Sijo. I was, I found this article the other day online and I love that when you open yourself up to things like we were discussing on the last show, the magic happens, right? And I was, I was thinking to myself, I said, you know, I need some ideas to talk about on this show to help get into things. You know, you need these sparks that help, you know, the conversation happened. And so being open to it, a buddy of mine on Twitter posted this article and I, that’s what we need to be speaking about. I allowed for the magic to happen and lo and behold, the magic happened. So I found this article the other day called the Cult of Being Busy by a lady named Dina Kaplan and says, over a leisurely lunch recently, a good friend lamented that he was too busy to read. I smiled. Our meal lasted an hour and a half and then we strolled to a nearby restaurant evaluating the menu for an upcoming dinner party. My friend then headed to a meeting about a conference. I like the, going to a meeting about a conference, right? That’s a busy man, right? You can’t just go to the conference. I have to have a meeting about the conference because he’s a successful entrepreneur. And he didn’t plan to attend, but he ended up going. And by the time he returned to work, it would be 430 more than four hours after he left for lunch. He had filled the day. He was busy, but the things that made him busy were the result of his own decisions. He didn’t lack the time to read, he was simply choosing not to. Throughout the day, we faced a number of decision points about how to spend time. Too often we approach these decisions passively, as if our hand was being forced, our free will compromised. Let me add one caveat. If you’re, you know, if you have young children, a bad commute, several jobs, this piece should be meaningless because you are generally busy. My friend at lunch reminded me of what the Buddhist monk, Sogyal Rinpoche, I’m not sure, Rinpoche, calls active laziness, the filling of our lives with nonessential tasks so we feel full of responsibilities or as he calls it, irresponsible. And I was thinking to myself, I said, you know, active laziness that when I heard that I was like, it kind of hit me like a mild lightning bolt. I said, my day is filled with active laziness whether I’m sitting on social media, looking at stuff that really isn’t germane to my life or I’m sitting in an office when I could have got my work done in about three hours and been done with it, staring at a computer screen and this active laziness pulls my focus from anything of importance. And I become kind of a slave to those random noodling thoughts. And I think, and then on the, another side of this, we’ve, as a culture, plays so much importance on being busy. We’re like, if you’re not busy, then you’re not important. You’re not doing anything worthwhile. And people, they call it a busy bragging or like, you see people, oh, I’m so busy. I worked till 11, like there’s a guy on my office like I was here till eight. And I’m like, that sounds horrible. Why would you want to do that? You know, I want to think to myself, gee, maybe you’re not very efficient if you were here till eight, right? You know, maybe you’re working too hard on the wrong things or, you know, whatever. You know, one thing I liked about that article is that is where she says in there that maybe, maybe being busy should be a confession, not a boast. Yes, yes, I love that. Yeah. Oh my God, I’m busy. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Poor me. Yeah. What are we busy doing?

[04:59] Dr. Carl Totton: We’re busy filling up our time. with things with chores, with jobs. And at the end of the day and at the end of a life, what does it all mean? You know, I’ve worked with people who are dying and on their deathbeds, I guarantee you not one person ever regrets that they were not more busy. Right. In fact, their big regret is that they were too busy, too busy to enjoy life, too busy to have fun, too busy to spend more time with the people they loved, too busy doing everything except living. Yeah. Really living. Yeah. And I think the Tao is a way that it’s like this little bug on your shoulder that’s going all the time. Are you living? Are you living? Are you just talking? Are you just existing? And at the end of that of your days, are you going to look back and bemoan the fact that you weren’t busy enough? Or that maybe you were too busy? And now, and you missed it. And you missed it. Yeah.

[06:12] Tod Perry: You missed it. Yeah. And the Taoist feels it’s a shame to miss it. Yeah. Right. It’s so missing. It’s happening right now. It’s right now. Yeah. That’s why I love the title of that book by Ram Dass, Be Here Now. Yes. That’s very Taoist. Yes. Definitely definitely. And so this might be a bigger topic. We’re going to discuss wu wei on today’s show. And the second this the second verse of the Tao Te Ching. Now how is you know, we’re saying don’t, you know, don’t occupy yourself unnecessarily with busy, don’t. But how then does one quote be is being sitting down meditating is being taking a walk is being because those are almost activities in their own way. You know what I’m saying? What is, what is the antidote to the busyness? Is it just allowing life to happen and not planning anything and just sitting down and interacting with the world in a non desiring way?

[07:17] Dr. Carl Totton: You know, there’s the Taoist gathering every year up in Oakland. And a few years ago, I was the keynote speaker. And my topic was being and becoming as a matter of fact pertinent that you should bring that up.

[07:54] Tod Perry: Yeah. What are we supposed to be doing? Are we supposed to be doing anything? Yeah. It was funny. When I was in, I went to India and I noticed it. Everybody in India was in a hurry to do nothing. That was my takeaway from that country. And there were people, they weren’t homeless, they weren’t, they didn’t appear to be homeless, but people would just lay down on the sidewalk or in the middle of the street and just, you know what, I’m just going to lay down for like nobody in LA unless you’re drained. You know, just lays down on the phone. But you’d walk and you’re like, who’s not the guy just just doing the most nothing you could do? He wasn’t even trying to be in a specific place of doing nothing. You’re just like this street right now, I’m just going to lay down and this to nothing. Talk about not doing. Yeah, exactly. Sometimes I not do all my couch. All right, not doing this guy was just not doing nothing. You know, it was like, there was part of me that really admired him. You know, I was like, this guy has got it. He’s got it together. Yeah. But, but you know, but I think it’s an important question,

[08:42] Dr. Carl Totton: because all of us, every human being is certainly here in the West, we’re confronted with every day. What are we doing? And what does that doing have to do with our being, yeah, who we are and who were in the process of becoming? Yeah. And can all of that be somehow harmonized so that they don’t conflict? Yeah. Um, since Taoism encourages us to really fulfill our own inner nature, you know, there’s every human being has a clock kind of going off inside of us. You know, we start off very yang, right? Yeah. In fact, if you go back before birth, we’re just a little cell, right? Yeah. Then what about four cells and then eight and they keep dividing? See, so the nature of things, certainly from the beginning, is to grow and expand and become more, right? And we’re born in every day, every second, as any parent will tell you, the kid gets bigger, it seems every few minutes, right? After they’re born. So we’re busy being born as Mr. Dylan said, yeah. And then we contract. And in fact, if you look at the universe from a prospect of a quantum physicist, They will tell you right now that the universe is doing two things simultaneously at all times. It is expanding, ever since the Big Bang. But at the same time, it is contracting, it is like breathing, it is expanding and contracting, and out of that interaction of expansion and contraction comes reality. Things are birthed into being. I think every human being, as a Taoist practitioner, I look at every human being every second as becoming, expanding, but yet contracting. Because we are heading towards what? Non-being. We are headed towards death. And what is the cause of death? Birth. Birth is the leading cause of death. Exactly. In fact, it is the only cause of death. But in between, what happened? We were busy. We were busy. We were being. We were doing whatever we were doing. And if we took the fact, if we go to the end and we take death, and we look at that at all times as something that is stalking us, haunting us, calling to us, because we are moving there. It is calling us. But if we know that, rather than death being this awful, horrible, scary thing out there to be afraid of, death actually becomes a teacher. It teaches us every second to make the choices to really live in a fulfilling, complete manner that will make us at the time we get to that last day in our final breath, say, you know, I did okay. I’m ready now. I wasn’t so busy. I missed me. I missed it. I missed this whole adventure. I was too busy doing stuff rather than being me. And that’s what I think that’s getting to. Can I be me every moment? And what does that take? What type of courage does that take? Am I able to choose my freedom to do that? Understanding that I don’t understand at all, but still be willing to keep going. Based on what’s in my heart, what’s in my heart. And the Tao is a reminder. The Tao, to me, is kind of like a correction. You know, we get so busy doing this and doing that and then the Tao is going, it’s like this little nagging thing on our shoulder going, you know, you’re going to die. You were born and you’re going to die. But in between, what are you doing? What are you doing?

What does wu wei mean?

[13:06] Tod Perry: Sijo. Yes. Wu wei? Wu wei? Sometimes thought of as being kind of like effortless action or not doing, if you will. What does that mean? What does it mean to do something without effort to simply allow something to be? How is that going to give us a guideline for how to live in a more fulfilling way?

[14:15] Dr. Carl Totton: And, you know, the Tao recognizes, as we’ve been discussing, the things have their own natural rhythm, things progress in their own way. As long as the basic ingredients are there for life and for progression, things will have their own inner clock. They’re going to progress in a way that is natural to them. And we have our own inner clocks that we have to learn ourselves, which is the weird thing. It’s my clock. But only now as I get to the age of 38 or whatever, I have an understanding of it. much deeper than I did when I was 20. And the clock keeps changing. But I feel

[14:58] Tod Perry: It often referred to as circadian rhythm, right? Yes, yes. .owned biological clock that every human being has. But because I think we’re so busy, we often are out of sync with that

[15:13] Dr. Carl Totton: biological clock. And when we really feel like we should be resting, what are we doing? We’re working over time. When we really feel like, “I’m kind of hungry, I should be eating.” Well, we might take time to eat, you’ll go grab fast food and just shovel it in and then get right back to work. Or we might just kind of starve ourselves and then massively overeat at the end of the day or something. What we didn’t do was when we were, they know that Chinese say when the sage is tired, he sleeps. When he’s hungry, he eats. He’s a tune. The sage is a being who is a tune to their own inner nature and their own inner clock. And they don’t get so busy doing that they avoid not doing when that’s in their best interest. Since everything has an ebb and a flow, in order to shoot an arrow, what do you have to do? Pull it back, you have to increase the tension and then you have to let it go, you have to release it. So all of nature is following this rhythmic cycle of tension and letting go and releasing and then it starts a new. When we violate that, because we’re so busy doing something or we have a desire and going into something that we have to violate the natural rhythm of something and then you probably get a non-satisfactory result. And think about this in your own life. It’s certainly been true in my life. Think about something

[16:57] Tod Perry: you really, really, really want it badly. Yeah. And the trash compactor in the Star Wars story when I was a kid. I just wanted the Death Star playset with the trash compactor in it. So I wanted it. And two things frequently happen as a result of this attachment to desire. One, we get it and then it’s not what we thought or it breaks or it’s our interest evolves and this thing we wanted so badly yesterday, now we couldn’t care less about. Or we don’t get it and we find out that the best thing possibly that could possibly happen is the fact that we didn’t get that because not getting that opened up the possibility of getting what we really needed down the road. That’s happened to me with jobs, with all sorts of things. And so this being so stuck on doing often works to our disadvantage and the book of the Tao indicates that sometimes through not doing, through pausing, through waiting, through being patient, things move into their own natural harmony and rhythm. And then when we put our energy behind that, it works better. Yeah. But it took us pausing and allowing things to develop in their own time in their own way for it to manifest in its suchness and its fullness. Right. So to let a completely bloom or you know, I found that this concept works in my relationship with my wife as a married man. I realized this the way the Tao of Mrs. Perry is that whenever she’s introduced to something new or whatever, she always first pushes against it first. No, this is terrible. No matter what, no matter what news is, it’s just no matter, even if it’s good news sometimes she’ll push against it. But 10 minutes later, it sits, it sticks in her mind and she absorbs it and then she’ll always come back and go, you know what? That’s not such a bad thing or that’s a fine. Now, for years, I would, the moment she’d push back, I then push back. Right. And then it would become a fight. How’d that work out for you? Terribly. And so it’s, I feel like it’s almost like a wu wei thing that I say it, she has a reaction. Yes. I wait. I acknowledge. And then 10 minutes later, she, oh, that’s fine. So now it’s no longer a conflict in our relationship. Right. But it took me so long to not, my desire was to have her react in the way I wanted her to react. And it’s never going to happen. Right. So, but the moment on your own time table, to my exactly, the X and Y axis, it had to be the outcome that I want. A, B and in the time I wanted it, the actually I get the outcome I want, or else maybe I wouldn’t stay married to, so 10 minutes down the road, and now it’s fine. But that feels to me almost like what Wu Wei is, but not just in dealing with my wife, but in dealing with, if I’m pushing a wheelbarrow, right, you know, I’m working with the wheelbarrow, or if I’m cutting a tomato, my dad used to always say, he would say, Todd, let the knife, make the effort. Don’t try to chop the tomato using your hand or your muscles, the knife is a perfect instrument that cuts it. You just don’t get in the knife’s way. See, your dad was a Taoist, I like that. He was a West Virginian Southern Taoist, yeah. That’s cool, yeah, yeah, that’s cool.

[20:38] Dr. Carl Totton: And as a psychologist, you know, and I have to do marriage counseling sometimes, and family therapy sometimes, you see this, of course all the time happening in relationships, where people just push and push

[20:50] Tod Perry: and push each other until they push each other

[20:53] Dr. Carl Totton: right out of their lives. Right, right. Whereas if they did what you just suggested, just pay attention, be patient, wait, listen,

[21:02] Tod Perry: often people really just wanna be heard. Yes, right, yes.

[21:06] Dr. Carl Totton: Then if it’s meant to be, it will happen. If it is, and it won’t. Yeah. And that’s a very Taoist way of looking at things, that is a Wu Wei way of looking at things. Right about the Wu Wei of marriage.

[21:19] Tod Perry: Also, I’ve learned that, I don’t know who said it or where I learned, is you know, you can’t change people, but you can always change how you react to them, and then they will change. Like so, I can’t say, “Sijo, stop doing this” or that, right? I can’t do that. But if I react differently to that behavior from you, because everybody’s in a symbiotic relationship, you will change. Exactly, exactly. And I’m sure you’ve discovered that with your wife. Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah. I’m sure you have. I’ve learned to stop acknowledging certain behaviors that maybe drive me up a wall a little bit. I love the gap, but yeah.

[21:59] Dr. Carl Totton: And when I talked to couples that have been married for 50, 60 years, you know what they tell me? That, the reason they were able to make a 50 year marriage work is because they accepted each other in all of their idiosyncrasies, and in these different time alignments, they, you know, an old man said, You know, sometimes she’d say this or that and I’d go, you know, she doesn’t really mean that. It’s okay. He’d just wait and then the moment would pass and then they’d go right back to loving each other. Right, yeah, yeah, yeah. And it’s doing nothing. And then the moment with the Western mind, it’s kill it, hit it with the hammer, hit it over the head. Thanks. Not just, it just let it go. Right, right. And that’s a very, that’s very telling of the kind of the Western way of trying to accomplish a lot of things. We want to beat it over the head. You know, if we have a germ, we’ve got to kill it right back out antibiotic, you know, where is the Chinese way Chinese medicine. It’s much more let’s support the system that support the immune system that’s make the entire organism healthier and then it would just balance itself out. Right, we don’t have to try to kill this and kill that. You know, it’s a system is healthy. It will do naturally what needs to be done. It will naturally do. And that’s a way allowing things to just happen naturally the way they occur. But that only happens when a you respect that there is a natural rhythm to things and b you create an environment and milieu within which that can happen. It involves a lot of trust. And total, I think that’s the hard thing. You’re you’re it’s a complete almost devotion or faith in the Tao in the way to let it go. You know, my life control things. My life became a lot better years ago when I realized something that nothing ever turns out to be as bad as I think it will. Yes. Once I got that to my thick skull.

[24:07] Tod Perry: It’s a lot of hard thing though to get through your skull. Right. You know, it’s very hard because we want to try to control the outcomes. We want to try to fix things. We want to try to make things happen. We want to try to impose our ego our will on reality and the world is looking at us going. Yeah, right. The line is a lyric by the songwriter Pete Taogherty says, you know, boy kicked out at the world in the world kick back a lot harder.

[24:38] Dr. Carl Totton: And there’s an F bomb in there somewhere. But that’s always the way it works. You kick out of the world. The world always, you know, come kick back at you. People always ask me about way and I just like the Tao or Yin and Young. And we could talk about wu wei. I’m sure forever. Yes. forever. Not doing, not doing. Doing without doing. Effortless action. You see, not doing doesn’t mean that you do nothing all the time. It means you do what needs to be done, the amount it needs to be done at the time that it needs to be done. And in the way in which it needs to be done. In other words, you’re moving so in harmony with the flow of how something is naturally different. The second verse of the Tao Te Ching, under Heaven all can see beauty as a beauty. Only because there is ugliness, all can no good, as good, only because there is evil. Being in non being produce each other, the difficult is born in the easy, long is defined by shorts, the high, by the low, before and after go along with each other. So the sage lives openly with apparent duality and paradoxical unity. The sage can act without effort and teach without words. Nurturing things without possessing them, he works but not for rewards, he competes but not for results. When the work is done, it is forgotten. That is why it lasts forever.

What does Chapter 2 Tao Te Ching mean?

[27:08] Tod Perry: So the chapter? Yes, our chapter of the day is chapter 2, correct. Yes. All right, and I will read the English portion, not the Chinese.

[27:26] Dr. Carl Totton: on the book. And this is chapter 2 of the Tao Te Ching. Under Heaven, all can see beauty as beauty only because there is ugliness. All can know good as good only because there is evil. Therefore having a not having a rise together, difficult and easy complement each other. Long and short contrast each other, high and low rest upon each other. Voice and sound harmonize each other, front and back,

[28:28] Tod Perry: He’s a big fan of his beauty, only because there is ugliness. These things are always thinking to myself that you’re never going to get out of certain cycles in life because if we lived in a perfect world where there was no quote unquote violence, there would always be violence because you wouldn’t have somebody shooting somebody but a slap from one human being to the other would be the most worse violation, right? It would be almost as serious as a murder if you just change the spectrum, right? You’re always going to have inequality because maybe if the richest man in the world had two dollars, a very impoverished man would have one dollar versus a billion dollars versus twenty dollars. You’re always in these cycles that are inescapable in a certain way.

[29:23] Dr. Carl Totton: This ability to kind of tolerate, even appreciate the rule of polarity in life, I think is at the heart of much of Taoist philosophy, yin and yang, you will. We’re challenged every day with people, nations, traditions which insist that their way is the only way. And many of us individually have become attached, even addicted, right? It’s things that we feel, you know, we have to have in a certain way. But yeah, look at your own hand. You know, you have the top part of your hand and you have the bottom part of your hand. You have the smooth part of your palm and you have a rough, more grainy part of your palm. And in fact, if you actually turn your hand over the other side and all that suddenly just got reversed, right? Yeah. But yet, do you need only the top smooth part of your hand or do you need the other part too? Yes. You know Having some money, having no money— See, that’s the same level of anxiety. So, all this abundance, what did it mean? Because we keep adjusting our activity to be at the level with where we think we can afford in terms of just monetary. Taoism, a Taoism knows when they have enough. That’s tricky. Which means that we’re conditioned to want more. It’s never enough. If you have $10 million, the next thing you want is 20. Once you get 20, oh you want 40. There’s no end to it. There’s never enough. You’re always busy. You’re always striving. And then when you get it, are you satisfied? No. You want still more. Where’s the happiness and peace and contentment in that?

[31:57] Tod Perry: It doesn’t exist. And I think if you look at our society, you see that everywhere. It’s right around the corner. I’m gonna have, I’m gonna finally be happy once I get that. Once, yeah. The grass is always greener. Yes, somewhere else. I was, sorry to cut you off here. I was thinking back to the first sentence here and to under Heaven all can see beauty as beauty only because there is ugl He goes to the gritty streets, like downtown LA and he takes pictures of skid row and he takes pictures of homeless people and my brother-in-law said he says you know you always take pictures of things that are ugly you know and I was thinking no the fact it in his whole work he is taking photos of these things that are ugly that we don’t want to see because they make us appreciate the other side of things but it almost I feel like as a Taoist in correct me if I’m wrong looks at that so-called ugliness and says this is amazing I’m so glad for this ugliness because without it I would not appreciate beauty it’s like the idea of the vinegar tasters right where you have a Confucius tastes the vinegar and he’s upset about it because it’s bitter and the Buddha

[33:21] Dr. Carl Totton: takes the vinegar and says oh life is suffering how bitter this is and Lao Tzu tastes the vinegar and smiles because it’s supposed to taste that way that is its nature. Its nature. Exactly and so like I also that story tour I love that that you say your father. Yeah my father-in-law. Yeah I love that I used to spend time doing that too actually going down to skid row going down to poor parts of town and just watching how people exist yes they have struggles yes they have challenges but yet you know if you go to a small village somewhere where people by our standards have almost nothing yeah and yet you look at the smiles on their faces you see how they treat each other you see how they enjoy the play of their kids the kids may have quote nothing except some rocks and some twigs and some leaves and they are just engaged in the most imaginative adventure you you’ve never seen yeah whereas over here all I need my Xbox and I need you know all of my equipment in order to have any fun you know kids over here whereas these kids with just a string and a rock and a leaf are totally engaged in life and being creative and that not having allows them to develop that where which you may not if you just if you have the Xbox but just having those rocks and twigs that child’s mind could expand to be even more creative you know and the people there who are living so simply They truly are appreciating every moment that they have with each other. You can see it in the way they look at each other. Whereas here we’re too busy to really look at each other most of the time. We’re just seeing each other in passing. And of course most of our time we’re looking into our smartphones have half the time. I want to set it on fire. Just get away from me. You can see what you can make out of the things you find on the ground. And what does it feel like to have your feet in hands actually on Mother Earth. While you’re looking up at the stars, I’m telling you it gives you something that you can get any other way. You’ll never find that in your Xbox. So you will find it in just having a handful of soil out of which the Earth comes what? Everything. Everything that we have. So

[36:57] Tod Perry: Yeah, that is what was, there’s not an atom in your body that wasn’t forged in the furnace of the sun. I think that was Carl Sagan. And that’s the most powerful thing. You think about the petty kind of things you deal with on an everyday basis and get wrapped up in and focused on anything. I am made of the coolest thing in the world. This is amazing. This is, I get to experience this right now is

[37:57] Dr. Carl Totton: And when people miss a lot, they have to replace that with something else and that something else I think are all the things we tend to be concerned with day by day. Just to get back to this, we don’t miss out in any of it. We can juice this fruit here, we have in front of it. Therefore, having and not having arise together. You need, I had to experience where I had like a job interview for a job I really wanted

[39:27] Tod Perry: So, this dynamic balance between having, not having, getting, not getting, appreciating things just for what they are. And if you don’t get something, appreciating the fact that because you didn’t get that, A, it may have opened, it did, opened up other opportunities. Because if you had gotten that, other doors would have closed. Right. That’s something that maybe wasn’t in your best. And that’s why I say a little while ago that my life became a lot easier once I realized that nothing ever turns out to be as bad as I think it will. Often it turns out to be much better. And that’s forget about it being bad. It becomes so much richer. If I had taken that, I never would have done all these other things that were very good.

[40:29] Dr. Carl Totton: But if we look at things that, oh, I didn’t get where I wanted at this moment as being a tragedy, that attachment limits our opportunities. And I think that’s one of the things that Lao Tzu was getting at when he wrote these words. Therefore, the sage goes about doing nothing, teaching no talking. What is it by teaching no talking? Like meditation. In other words, for meditation. And pausing. And remember, words can only express a portion of reality, a tiny portion of what we’re thinking. Right now, on so many levels, we are experiencing all kinds of things. There are hormonal things, neurochemical things. There are things in our subconscious. If you listen to a lot of the traditional psychiatrists, psychologists, psychoanalysts, they say that maybe what 5% of our entire consciousness is actually in the conscious domain. And the rest is subconscious or unconscious. There’s things going on of which we are unaware. And only a teeny fraction of that can we actually put into words. Right. So, by not doing, by not talking so much, we allow ourselves to participate in that rich inner life. That much deeper substantial. Yes. Yes. And if you’re talking all the time, you’re going to miss it. Yes. You’re going to miss it. There’s no room for it. And think you’re too busy. And thinking, thinking, thinking, talking because we think and what, words. We’re thinking in words. And so, all that was spent a lot of time not talking, not thinking, not doing, because that allows more of reality to actually come into existence. Yeah, it was already there, but it wasn’t in our existence because we could not perceive it. We were too busy thinking, too busy talking, too busy doing, too busy working, too busy doing something, then allowing these things that are already there to become a part of our existence. So it’s like not talking, not doing is its own act of creation. Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. So I’d like to thank everybody for tuning into our

[42:59] Tod Perry: I’d like to thank Dr. Carl Totton. I pronounced that correctly. Perfect. And I’m Tod Perry and we’ll be back on the next show and enjoy it. To learn more about the show, check us out online at whatsthistao.com. Follow the show on Twitter at What’s This Down. Follow Tod Perry on Twitter at @TodAPerry. Now, don’t follow leaders and watch your parking meters. Oh, really?

[43:51] [Music]

In the first episode of What’s This Tao All About?, Tod Perry sits down with Dr. Carl Totton, founder of the Taoist Institute in North Hollywood, California, to explore a mysterious question: What is Taoism? 

This first conversation (of many!) also covers Chapter 1 of the Tao Te Ching, with the cryptic message: “The Tao that can be spoken is not the eternal Tao.” Along the way, Tod shares how The Tao of Pooh first sparked his interest in Taoism, while Dr. Totton reflects on his background in psychology, martial arts, meditation, and Chinese philosophy. 

Subscribe to What’s This Tao All About? on iTunes >>

Episode Transcript

[00:00] Tod Perry: Now, how should I, what is your official title here? Because? And then which one?

[00:10] Dr. Carl Totton: Well, I have lots of titles.

[00:12] Tod Perry: You know, um, what would be the good one for this? Because if I just call you Carl, it has less weight. And you don’t have to say, it’s like Grandmaster Carl people are like, whoa, this can be show. Carl says what the grandmaster Carl was way more than people will fill up. They’re doing.

[00:32] Dr. Carl Totton: Yeah, well, yeah, yeah. I guess I got lots of titles. You know, my students, you know, they call me a Sijo, which means kind of like founding Grandmaster. Oh, wow. I was the founding grandmaster of my particular system. I’m a doctor, a licensed clinical psychologist, my clients, patients call me Dr. Totton.

[00:58] Tod Perry: Oh, okay.

[00:59] Dr. Carl Totton: Some people have called me, you know, Reverend, Reverend Dr. Totton, professor. I’m a chair of a department of psychology, so they’re a professor, Totten, you know, so I have, I have a zillion titles. And I like Sijo.

[01:16] Tod Perry: I like Sijo. I like Sijo too. I think that sounds Sijo.

[01:29] Tod Perry: What’s This Tao All About?

[01:30] [Music]

[01:39] Tod Perry: What’s This Tao All About?

[01:42] [Music]

[01:49] Tod Perry: You’re listening to What’s This Tao All About? A lighthearted look at Taoism, featuring Dr. Carl Totton and Tod Perry. Carl is the founder of the Taoist Institute in North Hollywood, California. Tod Perry, who knows a little about Taoism. And it’s mainly here because he owns a few microphones. Now, let’s learn. What’s This Tao All About?

[02:10] [Music]

[02:20] Tod Perry: Sijo. Explain to me in the audience what is Taoism?

[02:31] Dr. Carl Totton: That’s a great question. I hope there’s a great answer too. You know, so I mentioned to you that some old man came into my school once many years ago and just to get out of the sun, I’m sure. And I have a place to sit down. And he’s very hot. Hot here. Yeah, it’s warm here in the valley. So he was sitting down. He’s looking around. He’s going, what is this place? And so I tried to explain, well, you know, this is a school where we teach things that come from the philosophy of Taoism. You know, I teach Tai Chi and I teach about philosophy in Chinese medicine and all of these things, you know, have to do with balance and harmony and being in touch with yourself in nature, you know, things like that. And he goes, well, that’s very interesting. But what’s this Tao all about? And he kept asking that question, what’s this Tao all about? And so I often try to ask myself because people call and text me and you get a text saying what is the Tao? Well, what is Tao? And as we know, Lao Tzu or someone or someone, many centuries ago wrote a book of the Tao, the Tao Te Ching, supposedly explaining what’s this Tao all about? Right. I think we have a name for our show here. What’s This Tao All About? I’ve been thinking about writing a book with that title, actually, but I think it’s kind of cool. Yeah. And it’s kind of like a Tao, depending on how it’s translated. It means something like the way or the path or a road. It’s really kind of a series of ideas, concepts, precepts, if you will, about how to live a life that’s balanced and harmony with one’s own nature and with the greater nature. One of the things Taoist always look at, I think, really nicely is the big picture, the macrocosm and the little picture, your life, your thoughts, your feelings, your existence, the microcosm and how those two things connect and balance each other. I think is something that every human being has questions about what human being, thinking human being, because some human beings don’t really think much. But what thinking human being doesn’t have questions about, who am I? Am I here? What’s the purpose of my life? Where did I come from? And where am I going? And I think that, in my opinion, that’s what the Tao Te Ching is here to give us, not an answer, but guidelines for each individual to really find those answers for themselves. There are no Taoist evangelists. They won’t come to your door, asking for, you know, you to believe anything or asking for handouts on Saturday morning or something. You’ll never find a Taoist anywhere in the world doing that. There are very few Taoist establishments out there, and at least in the United States, I dare you to go to find a Sunday service on Taoist something. The thing I liked, I was reading a book, I was studying up for this podcast, and what I

[05:48] Tod Perry: really enjoyed is, again, there’s no evangelizing, there’s no punishment for not getting what– I mean, the punishment is maybe leading a less fulfilling life. But the idea of the Taoist is that it’s basically, here’s this book, try it, it will work for you, and you will continue practicing it. It’s no– If you don’t practice this, you’re going to burn in hell, or you’re not going to go to heaven, or anything like that. It’s just like, this works, try it out, people dig it. And I find that much more comforting than here, you know, carrots and sticks. I’m going to whack you with a stick if you don’t get into this. How do you genuinely learn something if it’s on the other end of punishment? It’s not a genuine experience, I feel, but this is like, yeah, take it, I’ll leave

[06:40] Dr. Carl Totton: it. Exactly, exactly. You know, Taoism is very strange in one sense, most philosophical and spiritual and certainly religious practices have a set of beliefs. And if you don’t believe in these things, then something negative is going to probably happen to you. And certainly you won’t gain admission into the exalted status of being a follower of their system unless you testify, sometimes literally, that you believe, I believe in this and I believe in that. Taoists have none of that. But instead this idea that there are certain things about this world, about this universe, that are constant. For example, one day follows the next. We know that this day has a beginning, it’s going to have a middle, it’s going to have an end and then seamlessly it blends right into the next day. And every day the sun rises, thank goodness. So far it has, so far, so good. I’m not betting on it tomorrow, no, no. Billions of years, you know, the world has turned, the sun is spinning around and so there are repeatable patterns that we know. And when it’s hot, what should we do? We should probably do something to make sure that we stay relatively cool. When it’s freezing cold, we probably need to do something to get a little bit warmer. These ideas, that notion, what I just mentioned, as the Chinese would say, in and young, in something that’s more cool, that’s more quiet, that’s more gentle, young, something that’s more fiery, warmer, hotter, active activity, the sun, the moon, the day, the night. These notions are part and parcel of really what allowed to the purported writer of the Taodet Qing, I think was getting at. And if we can live our life in harmony with these ongoing natural cycles, we’re going to be much more fulfilled. We’re going to be happier. And if we don’t, if we cling to one end or another, no, I only want the day, I only want the hot, I only want, you know, that’s beginning to sound familiar too, I want this, I want that, and I need something to be a certain way. Once we get attached to extremes, one end or the other, that’s when life tends to become very unfulfilling and challenging. And I think that the Taodet Qing for centuries now has given us kind of a little gentle nudge in the right direction. Yeah, again, there’s no hard and fast rules in this text, but there are gentle nudges

[09:37] Tod Perry: to think about things. Now, do you find that it, because there aren’t all hard and fast rules, that it’s actually almost more difficult for someone to be with a cultivator of the Tao versus the House shall not do this, shall not do that. And have this really rigorously prescribed way of living versus how am I going to find harmony in today? How am I going to be grateful today? How, you know, it feels much more challenging, but then again, maybe it’s more worth it in some way, if it is more challenging.

[10:10] Dr. Carl Totton: I agree, it is more challenging, because, you know, I’m famous psychologist, Eric Frum, years ago, wrote a book called Escape from Freedom, Escape from Freedom, where he said that, you know, mankind’s natural state of being should be free, to be free. But yet we run from it with a passion. We want other people or some other system or some book to tell us exactly what’s right, what’s wrong, what’s true, what’s false. And we escape, we don’t want the responsibility, the total overwhelming, awesome responsibility of having to find that out for ourselves. And so we give up our freedom to other people, to other systems, to authorities, to tell us what’s real for us. And in my opinion, what the Tao did, what the Tao has always done is said, look, it’s all about you. It’s about you existing as a consciousness in this universe. As far as you are concerned, the only reason this universe exists is because of you. If you weren’t here, none of this would exist for you. And so if you are in fact the kind of source of your universe, then who is there out there to tell you how to live your life and what to do and what’s right and what’s wrong and what’s reasonable and what’s not reasonable. Now if you are conscious and paying attention, you’re going to get feedback from others and from your environment about what’s working, what’s furthering. And there’s a famous Taoist saying, everything furthers, everything furthers.

[12:00] Tod Perry: Was it that the Ken Kesey, like the Merry Pranksters, or whatever, they had the bus, it was further, I think was the name of the bus or the license plate or something. Keep going. Keep keeping on. So if you were to, you know, at the onset of this series of podcasts, we’re going to put out, would there be a way that you could see that man again that comes up to your temple, where we’re sitting right now in Temple, North Hollywood and say, what’s this Tao all about? Could you do it in a sentence? Could you do it in three sentences and quickly sum up what it is for someone who just grabbed this podcast out of nowhere, said, thought to themselves, what’s this Tao all about? You know, are they going to talk in circles? Are they going to give me the answer here? You know?

What is Taoism?

[12:53] Dr. Carl Totton: Well, I don’t know about answers, but we certainly will give, I think the Tao certainly offers direction and guidance. Now let’s go to the book for a second. What is the very first thing out of Lao Tzu’s mouth in the Tao Te Ching? The Tao that can be spoken is not the eternal Tao.

[13:12] Tod Perry: What? Yeah. Right off the bat, he’s telling you that I can’t tell you what this is.

[13:19] Dr. Carl Totton: And so if Lao Tzu can’t tell us what this is, far be it from little, me. Right. You try to tell you what the Tao is all about. So we’re going to point in the direction of the Tao is what we say. We can definitely point in the direction of the Tao and then you, you will tell me what your Tao is all about. What your way is all about. You know, one thing that is absolutely true is that not one human being on this earth is exactly like any other human being on this earth. Correct. Not one day on this earth is exactly like any other day on this earth. But one second is exactly like any other second that ever existed out of trillions and trillions. Now what are we supposed to do with that? The fact that everything is in constant flux, everything is continuously changing. And in fact, the ancient Tao is said many times over that the only constant in life is change. But yet we as human beings, we hate it. We can’t stand change. We give a lip service to it. Oh, I like to change. I like to get better. I like to this. We’re lying. We hate change. We want to say exactly the same because there’s comfort and familiarity. Yes. You know, if you have a place to live and you go back home today and it’s still there and kind of looks the same way and hasn’t burned down or something, you probably feel pretty good about that, right?

[14:48] Tod Perry: I was getting frustrated with myself at a certain point where I thought, I’d like to be a more consistent human being, right? And then I thought, how ludicrous of an idea is that really to be, in a world of constant flux, with me, I just want that comfort of being a consistent person who maybe wakes up at the same time every day, that maybe is in, does all the things to put himself in the correct mood? But you’re really kind of chasing the dragon. And I think to myself, other people feel very consistent to me, right? Why am I feeling incances? And I realize it’s probably internally to them, they’re just as kind of wild and inconsistent as one would think. What’s this Tao about is recorded at the Taoist Institute in North Hollywood, California? Check out the Taoastistute.com. See there’s schedule of classes, including Taoist meditation, Kung Fu, and qigong. That’s Taoastistute.com. Before we’re going to get into a little bit later, we’re going to get into a chapter of the Taoaging. But before we get into that, just for people who just chimed in, for the first time checking out this show, I am talking to, what was the title we, that maybe I decided on, was it Sijo? Sijo. Sijo. I’m talking to Carl Totton. And you are a man of many different, I said, how should I refer to you on the show? And you said, I have many titles. If you could list them, just so the people know who the heck we’re talking to and whether they should actually listen to us. I was born in Los Angeles.

[16:51] Dr. Carl Totton: One of the few has it apparently seems. Yeah, oh yeah, nobody hears from here.

[16:55] Tod Perry: Everybody’s from someplace else. My parents moved here, I think, around 1940, something like that.

[17:01] Dr. Carl Totton: My mom 100 years old, actually, should be 101 this year.

[17:06] Tod Perry: Oh wow. So I must have good genes. Yeah, longevity’s in there somehow. Does she attribute it to anything? She wanted these people, there’s always a thing they go, how’d you live to be 100 of the guy, bacon everything? No, right? And then they, you know, the minute they quit eating bacon, that’s been a great break for cuz, you know?

[17:24] Dr. Carl Totton: I think she has a lot of people who love her and I think that has something to do with her longevity. Yeah. So I was born in LA, went to local schools here, eventually became interested in psychology. I got my bachelor’s and master’s degrees in kind of the helping professions, then got a doctorate in clinical psychology, and actually kind of a Christian university, Pepperdine.

[17:47] Tod Perry: Okay. Yes, well done.

[17:49] Dr. Carl Totton: Did my doctoral dissertation on meditation and altered states of consciousness, that was fun. So as they were to put together, my chief interest, well, you know, the dial, Taoism and meditation and Buddhist and Zen meditation, I was able to investigate that from a psychological perspective.

[18:05] Tod Perry: Wow. Like how can meditation help people and meditation even be harmful?

[18:10] Dr. Carl Totton: I wrote a whole district about that. Oh, I’d left, okay.

[18:13] Tod Perry: We could talk about that later. We’ll talk about that sometime, because my dissertation is interesting.

[18:18] Dr. Carl Totton: I can actually stand to read it. People actually buy my dissertation, they find it interesting to read. But in the meantime, since about 15 years old, I started studying martial arts because what kid, 15, doesn’t want to learn about self defense, right?

[18:34] Tod Perry: Or Bruce Lee, right? Bruce Lee, you’re going, hey, that’s cool.

[18:37] Dr. Carl Totton: I want to be able to do that. I want to be, you know, there’s this kind of thing that I think in every 15 year old, maybe other people are like, you want to be a superhero, right?

[18:44] Tod Perry: Exactly. And it’s almost like through spirituality, through martial arts, it’s the closest we can

[18:50] Dr. Carl Totton: come to that in a way. Yeah, exactly. It’s a close sense. You can’t find a, you know, Taoist church out there, but you can find these people who know martial arts and a martial art that maybe has been influenced by people who were Taoist priest and Taoist teachers. And so I found a martial arts teacher and it just so happened that a lot of his teachers were very learned. One of them was a Taoist priest from China. One of them was, had studied with the chief abbot from the Shaolin temple in China, which is a Zen Buddhist monastery. Another one of my teachers turns out to be a doctor of Chinese medicine, in fact, several of them are. And all of Chinese medical theory is permeated with ideas from the Tao. Completely. And so as time went on, I learned that, you know, there’s more here than just punching and kicking and even health and exercise and self-defense. There’s this philosophy here. There’s a root of it. So yeah. Yeah, that’s given me information about how to think about myself, how to think about my life, because it’s really easy, I think nowadays, to get confused by life. You know, we have all these religious and philosophical and spiritual systems out there, but yet, look at the world. It’s a complete disaster. It’s a mess. And I think nowadays, we have people turning away from a lot of those traditional sources of religion and philosophical and spiritual systems. And they’re looking for something else. And that something else, the first time I read the Tao Te Ching, I went, well, there is something here that I can feel.

[20:35] Tod Perry: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[20:36] Dr. Carl Totton: I’m not sure exactly what it is, but I can feel it. And then I’m reading that this is the most widely translated book in the world after the Holy Bible and I’m going, you know, there must be a few other people that feel the same way I do. And so as time went on, you know, I became a teacher, I became a black belt, there was a training program at my school that taught about Taoism and taught about philosophy and taught about meditation and qigong, you know, the kind of the Chinese word for yoga and meditation. And since my teacher’s also knew about herbs and Chinese medicine and acupuncture, I received a broad education and a lot of things.

How did Tod Perry discover Taoism?

[21:19] Tod Perry: And so wow, I was just saying I was like from psychology, the Tao Kung Fu, that’s, you know, mind, body, soul, the whole package, you know, I was very fortunate. I came to the Tao because I was about 20 years old and when, you know, I was raised very staunch Methodist Christian home. And so I always had part of me that was, you know, knowledgeable of spiritual things. It was just a part of my routine, a part of my life, a part of my, you know, a part of my conscious and when I was about 20, a friend of mine, who later robbed me. But yeah, he, he gave me the, The Tao of Pooh, the book and he said you really got to get into this. This is good stuff. And so I read it and it was like, the old saying, it scratched and itch, I didn’t know I had. Yes. And I read it and I thought wow, it was, it was like the teachings of the Dao were almost contrary to everything, you know, your learning in life, especially as a student, you know, everything, the thing I really hit me was that in life, we’re searching for the great reward, whether it’s in, you know, tradition, you know, kind of like Christian theology or Western theology that, you know, eventually you’re going to reach heaven. You do all these things and then you get it down the road, right? Right. You, you know, you go to the school, you do this thing and then you make your money and then that’s your delayed happiness, you delay gratification. And then that was like, no, no, no, it’s all here right now. Yes. You know, you got to tune into it, right? You just get it, adjust your frequency in life and it’s right here. And that was one of the most powerful things in the world. So I went on to read, you know, a whole bunch of books about it that there was a temple in a Monty that I used to attend and learn from a teacher there. And so it was something I was always into and I kind of faded away from it. It’s almost like you, you learn something and it just becomes part of your muscle memory and you don’t even know you’re practicing it or knowing it. And then recently I was online and I wanted to find a podcast about Taoism to reacquaint myself with the ideas and I couldn’t find anything. So I thought I do podcasts. I’ve done a bunch of successful comedy podcasts. I thought how about I do one myself? I go, but I don’t know enough about it. So maybe I can find somebody really smart that knows about this and I could learn from him and put it out and see what happens. So I found you. I like it.

[23:52] Dr. Carl Totton: So no, not so, that’s the Korean alcohol.

[23:56] Tod Perry: Sijo. Sijo. Sijo. I found you in a luckily you’re here to sit with me. So. The first verse of the Tao De Jing. The Tao that can be told is not the eternal Tao. The name that can be named is not the eternal name. The Tao is both named and nameless. As nameless, it is the origin of all things. As named, it is the mother of 10,000 things. Ever desireless, one can see the mystery. Ever desiring. One sees only the manifestations and the mystery itself is the doorway to all understanding. So the Tao De Jing for people who are new is what 88 is it?

[24:52] Dr. Carl Totton: 88 kind of poems or verses? 81. 81.

What is Chapter 1 of the Tao Te Ching about?

[24:57] Tod Perry: There we go. We’ve learned something new. 81 and it starts off with the first verse and we’re going to take this apart here for

[25:05] Dr. Carl Totton: people. The Tao that can be told or the Tao that can be spoken is not the eternal Tao. It’s how it’s written, how it’s frequently translated. And there are many, many, many different translations of those words. But think about your life. Is everything about you reducible to what someone or even you could say?

[25:35] Tod Perry: I surprise myself all the time.

[25:37] Dr. Carl Totton: Every human being is like that. But yet when we dialogue and talk to each other, we’re using words, words which are utterly inadequate to convey who we are, what we’re really experiencing, even what you’re really thinking.

[25:51] Tod Perry: Yeah. There’s no way you could put into words everything that goes through your brain.

[25:56] Dr. Carl Totton: And it’s like your brain is limited by the vocabulary that you have for exactly. It only goes so far. Like there are thoughts you have which are kind of uncategorized, because you don’t have the words for them.

[26:08] Tod Perry: Yes. And you can describe something but you’re very limited.

[26:13] Dr. Carl Totton: You know, you know, think about the most dynamic human being you know, if they’re impossible to translate and even yourself, there’s some things that come out of my mouth sometimes well I don’t know who the hell said it right? So yes. So and also words work to kind of differentiate one thing from the other when really in many ways they are connected. And Lao Tzu who said also in that first chapter, he said the nameless that which can’t be spoken is in fact the beginning of heaven and earth, the nameless. And so Taoism I think is a way to open ourselves up to the possibilities that we are more than what we can just talk about. And so Taoists have always put a huge emphasis on being direct experiences of one’s own nature and the greater nature about us. And by paying attention to that, by being cognizant and just being aware of that, it adds flavor and richness and dynamic experience to something that otherwise can be very frustrating by just trying to reduce ourselves to the spoken word. We are more than what we speak. And the Tao is trying to plumb those depths and make it rich and exciting and allow us each to live fully from that nameless place. That’s what the Tao is all about.

[27:42] Tod Perry: Now let’s see here, do we have a copy where we can read the entire. I have several translations here but yes. It’s real nice. It has a nice picture photograph. Well it’s written in Chinese so it’s not going to be doing it again. Okay wait, now I hear this. The Tao that can be told is not the eternal Tao. Exactly what we were speaking. The name that can be named is not the eternal name. The nameless is the beginning of heaven and earth. The name is the mother of the 10,000 things. Now when I read that, I think of the 10,000 things and it’s kind of like a metaphorical idea for the vastness and the richness of the universe of creation. And I think like the nameless is the beginning of heaven and earth. The name is the mother of the 10,000 things. So in my interpretation, the nameless is almost that field, that void. If you think about like the big bang, right? There is nothing and then the mother of 10,000 things, things, the multitude of things, of named things, of unnameable things, all spewed out. And that’s why I see that there’s such a. I feel the Tao is a metaphorical way of describing these big, huge things. And it feels like to me like it’s in alignment with science and everything that empirically people go out and try to learn about the world. The Tao is speaking about it just in a way that anybody can get. Hopefully. Yeah. The name is the mother of the 10,000 things. So I think about the big bang. I think about the variations of life, the spectrum that everything exists on. And the part that just gets me is ever desireless one can see the mystery. Ever desiring one can see the manifestations.

[29:37] Dr. Carl Totton: And I’ll tell you how I feel about that and then you give me your opinion.

[29:40] Tod Perry: And I think that desireless one sees the mystery. Like if I come to you and I have my own preset ideas of who you are based on, you know, psychographic data, social status, ethnicity, if I come to you with all those things, I’m

[29:59] Dr. Carl Totton: creating a self-fulfilling prophecy in my own mind of.

[30:04] Tod Perry: And then I’m going to start looking for them for you to validate me in some way. I’m never going to ever get to the root of you, to the truth of you, or learn about you, because I’m only. I’m looking at you with desire and so I’m only seeing the manifestations. Now desireless, if I just sit back and I mirror who you are, whatever, I will gain 10,000 things. It’s about preconceived notions. What’s the term? Self-fulfilling prophecy. And Tao teaches you to step back from that.

[30:40] Dr. Carl Totton: Yes. Which seems impossible. I like that word you used a little while ago, “field.” Tao is very much like a field. You know, if you go out into the countryside and you look at a huge open field that apparently has nothing there, but yet, if we care for that field, or if nature cares for it and provides it with a certain amount of sunlight and oxygen and water, just some very basic elements. After a while, that field will be teeming with thousands of different life forms. There’ll be plants and there’ll be trees and there’ll be animals and there’ll be insects and there’ll be microbes. There’ll be things we can’t even imagine are there by the millions, by the millions, out of this quote empty field. Tao is very much like this so-called empty field, but yet holds the potential for everything. That’s the mystery. Out of nothing, out of mystery manifests the awe. And if we don’t think that, like you said, coming with preconceived notions that, “Oh, I’m going to find this or that,” see, because if we look for just this or that, that’s all we can find. But if we’re open to the fact that this can actually become anything, it’s unlimited, then we just have the power of discovery. Taoers are curious. We just want to learn. And the only way to really learn is to wipe the deck. Keep it clean and allow things to just manifest according to everything’s individual nature, because everything has its own individual Tao. It’s own individual way, but it’s frequently stymied by those expectations that you mentioned. And now, and I guess if you agree with this, we stymied our own development, our own Tao by having these preconceived notions and locking ourselves in the holes and killing

[32:47] Tod Perry: our own potential in a way. We escape from our own freedom, indeed, all the time. Because many people are trying their concept of who I am is based on who I think you want me to be, or whose society thinks I should be.

[33:02] Dr. Carl Totton: “Oh, you’re a male, oh, you’re this, you’re that, therefore you should,” there’s that “should” again, “you should be this way or that way.” But what if your own true nature is not that way? Either you’re going to have to deny your nature or deny other people’s expectations. Now, which one do you choose to do? The Tao, I think, has our back that book of the Tao. It’s like, we call the show that, and Tao has your back. It’s okay to be who you are. And to explore that, I tell people all the time that the Tao is a scientist. But what is a true scientist attempting to do to discover new things and through that process of discovery to find out more about life and about existence? And how does a scientist do that? A scientist conducts experiments. So we as human beings, every day, as these kind of scientists of the Tao, we should be doing experiments every day trying out what we deeply connect with inside and seeing what the results will be. Some things will turn out, some things won’t. But you know, as long as we think that we really are scientists, we either we discover something and benefit from that, or we learn that that was not the way. And then we try something else. And through empirical experiments, we come to find what works for us in each and every living moment knowing that every second is completely different.

[34:54] Tod Perry: And scientists also have a hypothesis, right? They have ideas. And so the purpose of the experiment is to prove or disprove the hypothesis. Right. Now, scientists with the hypothesis is going in with a preconceived notion, right? But based on what’s been done before, but their desires for the truth, not for a specific result, a true scientist, right? It should be. But it should want to prove this. I’ll go do this. But a true great scientist goes, what’s going to happen?

[35:29] Dr. Carl Totton: And if it’s not what I wanted, I will abide by that truth.

[35:35] Tod Perry: That’s why true science is skeptical.

[35:37] Dr. Carl Totton: Yeah. They don’t really want to believe in anything from the get go because they’re open to being surprised. And the Taoist is open to being surprised every second. One of my Taoist teachers said that Taoist a real Taoist is curious. And out of curiosity, we do all of these interactions, experiments to try to learn things, to know things. And then when we do, then we can relate to them with compassion. And when you relate to things with compassion, you accept things as they are. They don’t have to fit into any preconceived notions. It just is what it is. And that openness, that compassion. I think it’s part of the day, the virtue, then motivates the down-aging, this book of

[36:31] Tod Perry: virtue. That is the virtue, being able to accept things as they are with compassion.

[36:37] Dr. Carl Totton: And we’re going to get into the day on another show.

[36:40] Tod Perry: You get into that. Let’s see, just to wrap up this. These two spring from the same source, but different name, disappears as darkness. And I’m not sure what that– with the Taoist getting at here. These two spring from the same source, but different name. Everything comes from somewhere. Same source. Everything comes from somewhere.

[37:06] Dr. Carl Totton: But there are things that we can name and label. Those are the 10,000 things, the things that manifest that we can talk about. And then there are other things that are in this kind of void space that allows for potential. There’s a notion in many systems, including Taoism, of something called alchemy. Alchemy means you take a piece of this and a piece of that and separate, they have their own identity. But you put those two things together while you have something brand new. And it’s like the sum of the parts where you have great musicians come together and

[37:43] Tod Perry: something else happens. Exactly. It’s that weird alchemy that unexplained– Exact. –field everybody gets on. That’s the magic.

[37:53] Dr. Carl Totton: And Taoist are into magic, in that sense. Darkness within darkness, the gate to all mystery.

[38:03] Tod Perry: So the mystery, what is the specific mystery they’re speaking of? The mystery is something that is unknown because it hasn’t happened before.

[38:14] Dr. Carl Totton: It is a mystery. And the Tao explicitly allows for the mysterious, the magical to happen all the time. Out of that interaction of things that perhaps were known, springing something that is completely new and different, something that was previously mysterious. But now that it has emerged out of the darkness, now we can appreciate it. And appreciation is a core concept. I believe that permeates this book of Tao, being able to relate to things with compassion, with openness, with humility, is I think something that people sense when they read the Tao, that there’s something humble about this. But at the same time, something magnificent about this. Famous Chinese philosopher Confucius himself. He met Lao Tzu. He was struck dumb. He couldn’t even speak. Later, he said, “Today I met a dragon, the mysterious Lao Tzu.” And that changed his entire thinking. And so the mystery allowing things to, at first, that we don’t quite understand, we don’t get, but allowing them to just develop in its own time, in its own way, that openness to allowing things just to become what they will be is I think a key at the heart of the Tao. And letting things become what they’ll be.

[39:45] Tod Perry: Letting, you know, they always share about going with the flow. It’s like water. And there’s a whole chapter on water in the Tao. Water, it fertilize, it feeds the fields, it allows all life on earth to exist. It doesn’t impose itself on anything. It seeks, in fact, the lowest level, right? It doesn’t try to just rise except esteem, which becomes air. But in its solid form, it actually seeks the lowest path. And it follows gravity. And we’re going to get to that on show, too. Yes, and show, too. So we’ll let that be a teaser for show, too, and we discuss the concept of Wu-wei. Yes, correct. So we’re going to be back next week with another show. My name is Tod Perry and Sijo Carl. Carl Totton. Carl Totton. And yes, so thank you so much for checking out the show and we’ll be back. What’s this Tao all about? Yes. To learn more about the show, check us out online at what’sthisdou.com. Follow the show on Twitter at WhatsThisTao. Follow Tod Perry on Twitter at Tod Perry. Now, don’t follow leaders and watch your parking meters. Wow. [Laughter]