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	<title>Comments for Association Inc</title>
	
	<link>http://www.associationinc.com</link>
	<description>The business of associations</description>
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		<title>Comment on Should I Lead or Should I Follow? by Lisa Junker</title>
		<link>http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/ab_comments/~3/41495T5Kp6c/comment-page-1</link>
		<dc:creator>Lisa Junker</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 10 Jul 2009 12:40:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.associationinc.com/?p=556#comment-983</guid>
		<description>Thanks so much for linking (and commenting), Kevin! I really appreciate it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks so much for linking (and commenting), Kevin! I really appreciate it.</p>
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	<feedburner:origLink>http://www.associationinc.com/556/comment-page-1#comment-983</feedburner:origLink></item>
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		<title>Comment on A Basic Post About Logos by David M. Patt, CAE</title>
		<link>http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/ab_comments/~3/8d29Ap3zhCQ/comment-page-1</link>
		<dc:creator>David M. Patt, CAE</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Jul 2009 23:37:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.associationinc.com/?p=542#comment-764</guid>
		<description>You should also ask whether logo placement has any value.  Has anybody ever purchased something because they saw a logo on a web site, brochure, banner, or giveaway?

Logos reinforce marketing messages - they aren't messages by themselves.  

A sponsor once laughed when I offered to print his logo on 200,000 brochures.  He said I could offer 2 million and it wouldn't matter.  But he grabbed the 200,000 offer when it was combined with other, more valuable, entitlements.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You should also ask whether logo placement has any value.  Has anybody ever purchased something because they saw a logo on a web site, brochure, banner, or giveaway?</p>
<p>Logos reinforce marketing messages &#8211; they aren&#8217;t messages by themselves.  </p>
<p>A sponsor once laughed when I offered to print his logo on 200,000 brochures.  He said I could offer 2 million and it wouldn&#8217;t matter.  But he grabbed the 200,000 offer when it was combined with other, more valuable, entitlements.</p>
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		<title>Comment on The Folly of Free by admin</title>
		<link>http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/ab_comments/~3/emX8mUu_RRE/comment-page-1</link>
		<dc:creator>admin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Jul 2009 19:30:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.associationinc.com/?p=554#comment-756</guid>
		<description>Yeah, that's an extremely dangerous place for an association to be. I watched several state organizations in the '90s, get wrapped up in certain affinity programs -- to the point where that was the source of most of their money -- and when those programs vanished overnight, the associations almost did, too. So I came to pretty much the same place you are. It's why my mantra veers between "it's a market, not a product" and "you can't build on a foundation you don't own."</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yeah, that&#8217;s an extremely dangerous place for an association to be. I watched several state organizations in the &#8217;90s, get wrapped up in certain affinity programs &#8212; to the point where that was the source of most of their money &#8212; and when those programs vanished overnight, the associations almost did, too. So I came to pretty much the same place you are. It&#8217;s why my mantra veers between &#8220;it&#8217;s a market, not a product&#8221; and &#8220;you can&#8217;t build on a foundation you don&#8217;t own.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>Comment on The Folly of Free by Judith Lindenau</title>
		<link>http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/ab_comments/~3/fIuu334WPvU/comment-page-1</link>
		<dc:creator>Judith Lindenau</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Jul 2009 19:22:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.associationinc.com/?p=554#comment-755</guid>
		<description>You're right...we're not that far apart, now that we've examined our rhetoric. And I do wholeheartedly support your last paragraph.  By way of clarification of some of my position. let me explain that for 30 years I worked in  a trade  association environment where there was one product (the Multiple Listing Service) which ran the show and was--in the members' eyes--the ONLY service the organization provided.  They paid for that service, and all others pretty much had to be funded out of the leavings.  Hence my position about finding alternative income streams.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You&#8217;re right&#8230;we&#8217;re not that far apart, now that we&#8217;ve examined our rhetoric. And I do wholeheartedly support your last paragraph.  By way of clarification of some of my position. let me explain that for 30 years I worked in  a trade  association environment where there was one product (the Multiple Listing Service) which ran the show and was&#8211;in the members&#8217; eyes&#8211;the ONLY service the organization provided.  They paid for that service, and all others pretty much had to be funded out of the leavings.  Hence my position about finding alternative income streams.</p>
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		<title>Comment on The Folly of Free by admin</title>
		<link>http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/ab_comments/~3/0NDM3TnOPdI/comment-page-1</link>
		<dc:creator>admin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Jul 2009 17:57:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.associationinc.com/?p=554#comment-750</guid>
		<description>Judith, I was just using advertising as a shorthand because, except for grants from foundations and governments, any situation where someone else pays to deliver something to someone else for free is most likely going to involve some sort of "advertising." Not too many people want the fact that they have paid for something to be kept secret -- and when they do, there's usually a rather selfish, often nefarious, reason for it.

You are correct, though, that aside from advertising, an associaton might also find something that it could do for one audience ,outside its core customer base, that that audience is willing to pay a lot for (some sort of software program, data, or knowledge, like you suggest) -- and then live off that revenue in order to give away everything else to your members for free.

Ultimately, I don't think you and I are saying very different things. As I said, there's nothing wrong with finding alternative revenue streams -- whether it's the old-school kind of advertising that you seem to have in mind when the word is used, other innovative sponsorship programs, or selling something to someone who is outside your core constituency. All may be very valid ancillary revenue streams to pursue.

The problem comes when this sort of aim moves from ancillary to focal. It changes who the customer is. It changes where you focus your energies. It makes you, for example, stop and think before opposing a policy position taken by someone who underwrites your operation. 

And it makes me wonder, if nobody is willing to pay for whatever it is you're doing, how valuable can it be? How sustainable can an association's mission be if it can't figure out how to get the people &lt;b&gt;&lt;em&gt;whose mission it is&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/em&gt; to pay for it?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Judith, I was just using advertising as a shorthand because, except for grants from foundations and governments, any situation where someone else pays to deliver something to someone else for free is most likely going to involve some sort of &#8220;advertising.&#8221; Not too many people want the fact that they have paid for something to be kept secret &#8212; and when they do, there&#8217;s usually a rather selfish, often nefarious, reason for it.</p>
<p>You are correct, though, that aside from advertising, an associaton might also find something that it could do for one audience ,outside its core customer base, that that audience is willing to pay a lot for (some sort of software program, data, or knowledge, like you suggest) &#8212; and then live off that revenue in order to give away everything else to your members for free.</p>
<p>Ultimately, I don&#8217;t think you and I are saying very different things. As I said, there&#8217;s nothing wrong with finding alternative revenue streams &#8212; whether it&#8217;s the old-school kind of advertising that you seem to have in mind when the word is used, other innovative sponsorship programs, or selling something to someone who is outside your core constituency. All may be very valid ancillary revenue streams to pursue.</p>
<p>The problem comes when this sort of aim moves from ancillary to focal. It changes who the customer is. It changes where you focus your energies. It makes you, for example, stop and think before opposing a policy position taken by someone who underwrites your operation. </p>
<p>And it makes me wonder, if nobody is willing to pay for whatever it is you&#8217;re doing, how valuable can it be? How sustainable can an association&#8217;s mission be if it can&#8217;t figure out how to get the people <b><em>whose mission it is</em></b> to pay for it?</p>
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	<item>
		<title>Comment on The Folly of Free by Judith Lindenau</title>
		<link>http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/ab_comments/~3/uYJj2BhWWpE/comment-page-1</link>
		<dc:creator>Judith Lindenau</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Jul 2009 14:08:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.associationinc.com/?p=554#comment-743</guid>
		<description>Interesting comment and ensuing discussion on Cuban's article here: http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20090706/0014145448.shtml</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Interesting comment and ensuing discussion on Cuban&#8217;s article here: <a href="http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20090706/0014145448.shtml" rel="nofollow">http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20090706/0014145448.shtml</a></p>
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		<title>Comment on The Folly of Free by Judith Lindenau</title>
		<link>http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/ab_comments/~3/IZJzZjqzxtk/comment-page-1</link>
		<dc:creator>Judith Lindenau</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Jul 2009 13:59:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.associationinc.com/?p=554#comment-742</guid>
		<description>I do remember the ASAE meeting where I got my CAE (how could I forget?) and the keynote speaker said exactly the same thing.  I, with stars in my eyes and a new designation, went back to my association with that message.  But in my association world, it didn't quite work that way I found...particularly when we were developing a service that we wanted to have in place before the members' demanded it, as is often the case with technology. We needed R and D money, if you will, and members don't always like to fund those things. Hence the case for some additional business plans that generated income.

Not all of the additional is advertising, either, as your comment suggests.  In answering the question "What would Google Do?", selling pay per click is only one possibility.

The Google lessons for associations include, I think, capitalizing on what you have in abundance (data?  specialized knowledge? membership numbers?), developing products that are flexible enough to allow for customization by the users and getting out of the way of how they use them, and looking at a variety of alternatives to funding by direct pay per use.

I don't think there's anything new here to association managers.  These concepts aren't based on huge numbers of people, either: in fact, they stand up well in organizations of extremely limited resources.  And 'free' doesn't mean without quality: Google's business products wouldn't attract anybody if there wasn't  quality involved.  Nor would Open Office, Wikipedia, or any open source or creative commons idea.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I do remember the ASAE meeting where I got my CAE (how could I forget?) and the keynote speaker said exactly the same thing.  I, with stars in my eyes and a new designation, went back to my association with that message.  But in my association world, it didn&#8217;t quite work that way I found&#8230;particularly when we were developing a service that we wanted to have in place before the members&#8217; demanded it, as is often the case with technology. We needed R and D money, if you will, and members don&#8217;t always like to fund those things. Hence the case for some additional business plans that generated income.</p>
<p>Not all of the additional is advertising, either, as your comment suggests.  In answering the question &#8220;What would Google Do?&#8221;, selling pay per click is only one possibility.</p>
<p>The Google lessons for associations include, I think, capitalizing on what you have in abundance (data?  specialized knowledge? membership numbers?), developing products that are flexible enough to allow for customization by the users and getting out of the way of how they use them, and looking at a variety of alternatives to funding by direct pay per use.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t think there&#8217;s anything new here to association managers.  These concepts aren&#8217;t based on huge numbers of people, either: in fact, they stand up well in organizations of extremely limited resources.  And &#8216;free&#8217; doesn&#8217;t mean without quality: Google&#8217;s business products wouldn&#8217;t attract anybody if there wasn&#8217;t  quality involved.  Nor would Open Office, Wikipedia, or any open source or creative commons idea.</p>
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		<title>Comment on The Folly of Free by admin</title>
		<link>http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/ab_comments/~3/bKQw_oCdy-8/comment-page-1</link>
		<dc:creator>admin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Jul 2009 12:39:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.associationinc.com/?p=554#comment-737</guid>
		<description>Judith, sorry but I think comparing associations to Google is a mistake. Sure, there may be a few lessons to be learned -- but the scales are so insanely different that there's a very real possibility of learning the WRONG lessons.

Advertising can make some nice ancillary revenues for most associations, but I believe it to be a terrible business model in and of itself, for a lot of reasons that &lt;a href="http://www.associationinc.com/398" rel="nofollow"&gt;I have written about before&lt;/a&gt;. Every morning (especially over the last year) I get up and thank god that I'm in the business of serving members and customers by selling them things they value, and NOT in the business of selling my members' eyeballs to someone else. 

If what you offer is of general interest to a huge number of people, like Google, then advertising is a business model worth exploring. If what you offer is of specific interest to a specialized group of people, like most associations, then advertising is a nice little ancillary stream but it ain't gonna get you all that far (and is too unstable to be relied upon -- as I think we've all plainly learned over the last couple of years).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Judith, sorry but I think comparing associations to Google is a mistake. Sure, there may be a few lessons to be learned &#8212; but the scales are so insanely different that there&#8217;s a very real possibility of learning the WRONG lessons.</p>
<p>Advertising can make some nice ancillary revenues for most associations, but I believe it to be a terrible business model in and of itself, for a lot of reasons that <a href="http://www.associationinc.com/398" rel="nofollow">I have written about before</a>. Every morning (especially over the last year) I get up and thank god that I&#8217;m in the business of serving members and customers by selling them things they value, and NOT in the business of selling my members&#8217; eyeballs to someone else. </p>
<p>If what you offer is of general interest to a huge number of people, like Google, then advertising is a business model worth exploring. If what you offer is of specific interest to a specialized group of people, like most associations, then advertising is a nice little ancillary stream but it ain&#8217;t gonna get you all that far (and is too unstable to be relied upon &#8212; as I think we&#8217;ve all plainly learned over the last couple of years).</p>
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	<feedburner:origLink>http://www.associationinc.com/554/comment-page-1#comment-737</feedburner:origLink></item>
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		<title>Comment on The Folly of Free by Judith Lindenau</title>
		<link>http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/ab_comments/~3/vUsOqjh7lmc/comment-page-1</link>
		<dc:creator>Judith Lindenau</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Jul 2009 12:18:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.associationinc.com/?p=554#comment-736</guid>
		<description>Can't agree with Cuban on this one. His 'direct marketing' loyalties show...even if one charges for product, the black swan will come and your product replaced.  Newspapers are a good example--they simply can't charge enough to cover the cost of the current production and delivery model, and the advertising component has been replaced by the technology of modern marketing.  

Free is not, of course, free.  It is a business model which recognizes that there are better returns on investments than charging the consumer directly.   Google knows this and makes considerable revenue in ways that are invisible to the search engine user and the g-mail subscriber.  It's a lesson that membership associations, particularly, need to explore.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Can&#8217;t agree with Cuban on this one. His &#8216;direct marketing&#8217; loyalties show&#8230;even if one charges for product, the black swan will come and your product replaced.  Newspapers are a good example&#8211;they simply can&#8217;t charge enough to cover the cost of the current production and delivery model, and the advertising component has been replaced by the technology of modern marketing.  </p>
<p>Free is not, of course, free.  It is a business model which recognizes that there are better returns on investments than charging the consumer directly.   Google knows this and makes considerable revenue in ways that are invisible to the search engine user and the g-mail subscriber.  It&#8217;s a lesson that membership associations, particularly, need to explore.</p>
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	<feedburner:origLink>http://www.associationinc.com/554/comment-page-1#comment-736</feedburner:origLink></item>
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		<title>Comment on Dais of Our Lives by Lisa Junker</title>
		<link>http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/ab_comments/~3/NO6cAIVzHcw/comment-page-1</link>
		<dc:creator>Lisa Junker</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Jul 2009 12:15:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.associationinc.com/?p=551#comment-561</guid>
		<description>Your impression is right! They're a ton of fun to work on (although it's also great when other authors are interested in trying out the format--I don't want to be selfish and keep them all to myself.) I'm glad you enjoy reading them, too.

And psst, here's a secret: We're not necessarily starting an association soap opera, but our plan for 2010 is to set all of the case studies at the same fictional association so we can actually follow an organization as it changes over time. I'm working to develop the staff/cast of characters now. Maybe one of them will have an evil twin ... or amnesia ...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Your impression is right! They&#8217;re a ton of fun to work on (although it&#8217;s also great when other authors are interested in trying out the format&#8211;I don&#8217;t want to be selfish and keep them all to myself.) I&#8217;m glad you enjoy reading them, too.</p>
<p>And psst, here&#8217;s a secret: We&#8217;re not necessarily starting an association soap opera, but our plan for 2010 is to set all of the case studies at the same fictional association so we can actually follow an organization as it changes over time. I&#8217;m working to develop the staff/cast of characters now. Maybe one of them will have an evil twin &#8230; or amnesia &#8230;</p>
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